From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 06:55:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12169;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:50:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:50:42 -0800
Message-ID: <3C5AAAF5.1DC5CC16 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:49:25 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KysNT1.0.3-2.1jgMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45939
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

thomas malloy wrote:

> Last summer while cutting
> down a tree, Dr. Park was seriously injured when it fell on
> him.

He wasn't cutting down a tree.  He was jogging when the tree saw
him coming and decided to equate karma.

http://www.aps.org/units/senior/fall2001.html

"Also, he reported that when the tree fell
on him in September, 2000, it was after several days of rain and
that he
was on a jogging trail he had been using for years. He said it
gave him a
new perspective on the probability of rare events."

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 07:09:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA19864;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:04:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:04:53 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201094729.00ae8c90 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:04:50 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
In-Reply-To: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"Br86Y3.0.Is4.KwgMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45940
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

thomas malloy wrote:

>Fellow Vortexians;
>
>I am posting this for your review and comments.

Good. Don't publish it as is.


>If these elements are isolated, and subjected to an isotopic analysis, the 
>isotopic ratio will reveal the presence of rare isotopes. I refer to these 
>isotopes as 2%'ers because they occur in nature in concentrations of less 
>than 3%. Rather than acknowledge the significance of these anomalous 
>isotopic ratios, Dr. Park is reported to have said, "I don't care about 
>your isotopic ratios."

You should mention that some of the rare elements increase by a large 
factor, with some examples. If the concentration increased from 2% to 5%, 
it would not be impressive.


>The only thing that is worse than ignoring facts, is the sabotaging of 
>experiments which conflict with your pet paradigm. Robert Cook, patentee 
>of the Cook Inertial Propulsion System, forceborne.com , tells the story 
>of an aircraft engineer who rewrote a computer program so that it would 
>appear that the inertial drive wasn't producing any force.

Unless this story is well-documented and you know it is a fact, I would 
leave it out. It is amusing, but stories like this can seldom be verified.


>Rather than recommend double blind tests, which would establish the 
>efficacy of alternative medicine, Dr. Park contends that they are the 
>result of the placebo effect.

The placebo effect does not exist. It was recently shown to be a 
combination of exaggeration and bad statistical technique. The patient's 
expectations and attitudes have no effect on the efficacy of drugs or 
therapy. The causality runs the other direction only: seriously ill and 
moribund people are often depressed, for obvious reasons.


>Last summer while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was seriously injured when 
>it fell on him.

He was jogging in a park, not cutting a tree.


>  I have taken to making remarks like, we should take up a collection to 
> buy Parksie some more chain saw gas, and I'd be willing to donate the 
> shade tree in my front yard if he needs another tree to chop down.

This is very bad taste. It is uncalled for. Publishing statements like this 
will make you look bad.

I myself think it would make no difference if Park were to be removed from 
the scene. There are countless others like him. He is so bombastic and 
dismissive, I think he helps our side. Suppose he had a more moderate tone, 
or he were to cite actual experimental evidence. Suppose he actually knew 
about the subject, and he could address the technical issues. People might 
take him more seriously. He might influence public opinion against CF more 
effectively. He is such an extremist, I think he makes a good foil, or 
straight-man. An impartial observer will see that he is a coward and he 
evades the issue. He will never address the message I sent yesterday, and 
try to justify his absurd assertions about "mendacity."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 07:34:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05881;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:30:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:30:41 -0800
Message-ID: <20020201153037.74000.qmail web11202.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:30:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020131211939.00a1fe10 mail.dlsi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"3BK99.0.RR1.WIhMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45941
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


As a skeptic I have a certain respect for some of Park's
colleagues. For Parks himself I have this to say...  Integrity
is the holy gale of science.  Special care must be taken to
maintain that integrity especially for a skeptic.  A skeptic
must never allow his word to become challengeable.  When a
skeptic speaks from where he has no knowledge it is his
responsibility to put fourth that he has no knowledge in that
aria.  Should he fail to do this one thing he ruins his
integrity and places everything else he has said in jeopardy. 

Now this stuff is realty hilarious if you look at it close
enough.

1. For Dr. Park to presume that he has the right to tell me
which healing regimens I can use, and which nutritional
supplements I can take, absolutely infuriates me.

And what was it that Dr Parks is a Dr - of ???  I was pretty
sure it wasn't medical.  I could be wrong here.  

2. As a form of disrespect I gave him the moniquer of Parksie. 
 
cute... I like it

And this is big one :-)

3. Last summer while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was
seriously injured when it fell on him. 

Excellent work for someone who seems to be so knowledgeable in
physics.  To predict which way a tree would fall?  Or maybe he
just thought he was GOD  ???

4. I have taken to making remarks like, we should take up a
collection to buy Parksie some more chain saw gas, and I'd be
willing to donate.... 

Yah yah... Where do I send the money?



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 07:43:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12170;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:40:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:40:18 -0800
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:40:15 +0000
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
Message-ID: <20020201154015.B370 genius.tao.org.uk>
Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>,
	vortex-l eskimo.com
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020201094729.00ae8c90@pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY"
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201094729.00ae8c90 pop.mindspring.com>; from jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:04:50AM -0500
Resent-Message-ID: <"KflCY.0.-z2.XRhMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45942
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:04:50AM -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>=20
> >Rather than recommend double blind tests, which would establish the=20
> >efficacy of alternative medicine, Dr. Park contends that they are the=20
> >result of the placebo effect.
>=20
> The placebo effect does not exist. It was recently shown to be a=20
> combination of exaggeration and bad statistical technique. The patient's=
=20
> expectations and attitudes have no effect on the efficacy of drugs or=20
> therapy. The causality runs the other direction only: seriously ill and=
=20
> moribund people are often depressed, for obvious reasons.
>=20

Can you prove this? It's been long established in therapies such
as hypnosis and Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) that a patient's
expectations and attitudes play a major part in how successful a
therapy is. Likewise their belief systems also play a large part.

Joe

--1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAjxatt4ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZwigCcCK07S/szCEXBXBpyI470tB76
/D0AmwSKCTMu59ezCUynu3pMxs8u7ZS9
=JDLi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--1LKvkjL3sHcu1TtY--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 07:47:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15068;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:44:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:44:46 -0800
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:38:09 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001c01c1ab36$744be880$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b87f45d1c053 [12.21.211.39]>
 <kuej5ug7hpds0hnvo51crngrfa43kmvrt6 4ax.com>
 <00d701c1aaae$b9462d20$8837fea9 computer>
 <im2k5us2ef1o1c97qen0s6aongr2amkdms 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"es3iQ1.0.Mh3.kVhMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45943
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> >Also as far back as 1938, the amazing Philo Farnsworth reported in  patent #
2,135,615 , a Multipactor ...

> Interesting, is this on the web?

A google search for {"2,135,615" farnsworth} turned up 4 hits, one of them being
the Borderlands article (citing an old Radio magazine article) that I believe
was the original source of that soundbyte. OK, I know. Not exactly your most
authoritative source .... Somewhere else, I think it said that Philo got a full
25 watts of rf power from 25 watts of DC input. If you include the heat and so
forth, that's OU - but also remember in the 1930's aluminum was a very expensive
metal, comparatively, and if an electrode burned out in a matter of minutes,
that was probably why the idea wasn't pursued... not to mention it could have
been measurement error.


> Then please explain the glow in the electrolyte.

Electroluminescence?

Google gives over 10k hits on that one, but of course, the UV from hydrinos
could be behind the electroluminescence itself - but for the Occam folks,  it
can occur in far less demanding situations, i.e. in the primitive biochemistry
of fireflies and krill...

...unless those guys use hydrinos too....

Plus if it were hydrinos, wouldn't you have a clearer energy anomaly, especially
with the nuclear transmutation? Plus, I think the lack of gammas is conclusive.
You just can't hide MeV gammas.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 08:02:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27092;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:58:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:58:55 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <8c.1365d2b9.298c151c aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:58:20 EST
Subject: memory test...need information
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"lsudk1.0.9d6._ihMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45944
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have a good friend who has measitatic brest cancer.  It is now in both 
lungs.  She is in treatment taking chemotherapy (taxiter and carbarnal) and 
the hormone drug Famara.  She is also looking into alternate clinics.  She 
has asked me for help and advice.  I know litte about biology.  The clinics 
use antigensis (anti blood vessel growth) drug C-statin and a vacine made 
from one own blood.

I know that cancer has a high metabolic rate.  It loves sugar.  I read an 
article a few years back about an artificial left handed sugar that had no 
nutritional value.  I can't remember where I saw it.  I would like to write 
to the author to see if has oppisite handed sugar has been tried as a dietary 
supplement for cancer patients.  Does anyone recall this work.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 08:30:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19845;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:28:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:28:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3C5AC1D0.4175AFE5 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:26:56 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: memory test...need information
References: <8c.1365d2b9.298c151c aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"osmki.0.ir4.O8iMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45945
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a good friend who has measitatic brest cancer.  It is now in both
> lungs.  She is in treatment taking chemotherapy (taxiter and carbarnal) and
> the hormone drug Famara.  She is also looking into alternate clinics.  She
> has asked me for help and advice.  I know litte about biology.  The clinics
> use antigensis (anti blood vessel growth) drug C-statin and a vacine made
> from one own blood.
> 
> I know that cancer has a high metabolic rate.  It loves sugar.  I read an
> article a few years back about an artificial left handed sugar that had no
> nutritional value.  I can't remember where I saw it.  I would like to write
> to the author to see if has oppisite handed sugar has been tried as a dietary
> supplement for cancer patients.  Does anyone recall this work.
> 
> Frank Znidarsic

Maybe you're speaking of Dr. William Kelley:

http://www.drkelley.info/articles/archive.php?artid=283

Also see:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/2001-No6-CancerStrategies.cfm

Regards,

TErry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 08:46:28 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01385;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:45:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:45:39 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201111151.00b049f0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:28:30 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Getting off topic: placebos
In-Reply-To: <20020201154015.B370 genius.tao.org.uk>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201094729.00ae8c90 pop.mindspring.com>
 <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020201094729.00ae8c90 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA01334
Resent-Message-ID: <"KJ0qp1.0.YL.pOiMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45946
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Josef Karthauser wrote:

> > The placebo effect does not exist. It was recently shown to be a
> > combination of exaggeration and bad statistical technique. . . .
>
>Can you prove this? It's been long established in therapies such
>as hypnosis and Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) that a patient's
>expectations and attitudes play a major part in how successful a
>therapy is. Likewise their belief systems also play a large part.

Yes, it has been long established, but it is still wrong. Incorrect ideas 
linger in medicine more readily than they do in physics or engineering. See:

New England Journal of Medicine, "Is the Placebo Powerless?— An Analysis of 
Clinical Trials Comparing Placebo with No Treatment," Asbjorn Hrobjartsson, 
M.D., and Peter C. Gotzsche, M.D.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/344/21/1594

I admit, I have long suspected the placebo hypothesis is bunk. 
Statisticians I knew 20 years ago said much the same thing as this article. 
Furthermore, as I see it, when people talk about the human will or life 
force "fighting" disease, this is a comically myopic and 
anthropocentric  point of view. What about the life force of the bacteria? 
Gram for gram, bacteria, AIDS viruses and other parasites have as much 
"life force" as we do. They struggle to survive just as much as we do. If 
anything, they are better adapted. When a person dies of disease, it is not 
a defeat. It is a case of biology working too well: the parasites have 
colonized so effectively, they overwhelmed and killed the host. Gradually, 
most of them evolve to temper their attacks at moderate levels. This is 
why, for example, nearly every feline species has a form of AIDS which 
causes the host no harm.

As I see it, the "placebo effect" and faith healing are expressions of an 
ancient custom common in all cultures: blaming the patient for the disease. 
People are afraid of illness. They shun and fear sick people, partly 
because they instinctively fear contagious disease, and partly because they 
do not want to believe they may be subject to dreadful random events, and 
they are helpless to prevent it. When a person sees a patient miserable and 
humiliated by illness, he wants to believe it is somehow that patient's 
fault. The patient did something wrong. He failed to look after his health 
/ appease the gods / eat the right foods. (It seems plausible, because many 
diseases such as lung cancer from smoking are, in fact, the patient's 
fault.) If you admit to yourself that the patient is a victim of a random 
event, or that bacteria are as much in control of the situation as he is, 
and the bacteria or cancer cells have as much active life force as the 
patient, then you must admit to yourself that you too are powerless, and 
you might be struck down next.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 09:17:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21167;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:13:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:13:21 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201115558.04804a50 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:13:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
In-Reply-To: <3C5AAAF5.1DC5CC16 bellsouth.net>
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"wb0tE2.0.bA5.moiMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45947
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Terry Blanton wrote:

>"Also, [Park] reported that when the tree fell
>on him in September, 2000, it was after several days of rain and
>that he was on a jogging trail he had been using for years. He said it
>gave him a new perspective on the probability of rare events."

That is a dumb comment. Falling trees are not rare, the event was not 
random. I have often seen and heard trees fall in the woods, especially 
after several days of rain or deep snow. Now if he had been struck by a 
falling meteorite, *that* would be a rare event. People are seldom hurt by 
falling trees, except loggers, of course. I suppose that is because most 
people who walk in the woods have enough sense to stay away from trees that 
look likely to fall.

As far as I know, no one has been struck by a meteorite. However, one woman 
had her automobile crushed by one. It went straight through the back, 
punching a hole, and ended up in the driveway. The police were summoned. 
They suspected that she must have a jealous boyfriend who deliberately 
wrecked her car. The police impounded the meteorite as evidence and kept it 
in the station house for a few weeks as a paperweight or doorstop (I don't 
recall which), until the local university found out about it and claimed 
the specimen, which is immensely valuable. To these policemen, all events 
look like a crime. They must not have a very good grasp of common sense 
physics or the strength of materials. How often do you see a boyfriend hurl 
a rock through two layers of sheet metal? The woman protested that her 
boyfriend was not  angry with her, and not a violent person. She might have 
added that he was not Superman.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 09:25:21 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28745;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:23:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:23:59 -0800
Message-ID: <3C5AC209.7FA480C ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:28:08 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------F261EA4F71DC71951057F3C1"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Mn0vs.0.n07.iyiMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45948
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--------------F261EA4F71DC71951057F3C1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Thomas,
While I agree with all you said, I wonder what effect this
essay will have on  Park or on other people who think like
him.  Park has the power of the APS behind him and the
support of many people who agree with his viewpoints.
Unless you can publish your critical essay in a place where
it is read and respected by the general public, you are only
providing some entertainment for yourself.  Park will only
be replaced when his pronouncements have become an
embarrassment to the APS. This will only happen when cold
fusion and Zero point energy have become accepted, or when
Park has challenged a powerful institution. Being the bully
he is, this is something he will avoid doing.  Meanwhile, I
suggest reading and rejecting Park in the same manner you
reject most things seen on TV and published in the press.

Regards,
Ed

thomas malloy wrote:

> Fellow Vortexians; I am posting this for your review and
> comments. Dear Dr. Park;
>
> I want to give you a chance to comment on this.
>
> Robert Park teaches physics at the University of Maryland.
> He also edits the American Physical Society's Newsletter.
> He is a classic example of a post hole digger, a Ph.D who
> doesn't know much. As a defender of the old paradigm he
> has taken to referring to experiments, the results of
> which, conflict with his pet paradigms, as voodoo
> science.In 1972 Thomas Kuhn published The Structure of
> Scientific Revolutions, in which he talked about paradigm
> revolutions, and how defenders of the old paradigm will
> ignore evidence which conflicts with their pet paradigm.
> It is well established by experiment, that, when a
> palladium electrode is electrolyzed in water, and
> anomalous heat is exhibited, that following this process,
> a chemical analysis of the electrode will reveal the
> presence of elements not in the electrode to begin with.
> If these elements are isolated, and subjected to an
> isotopic analysis, the isotopic ratio will reveal the
> presence of rare isotopes. I refer to these isotopes as
> 2%'ers because they occur in nature in concentrations of
> less than 3%. Rather than acknowledge the significance of
> these anomalous isotopic ratios, Dr. Park is reported to
> have said, "I don't care about your isotopic ratios."
> There is also a well established body of physical theory,
> the present advocates of which are Puthoff and Aspden, and
> going back through Sakarov and Dirac, back to the time of
> the natural philosophers, called the active aether. If
> this energy could be cohered, it could provide a unlimited
> source of energy. I have yet to hear what Dr. Park's
> reaction to Puthoff and Aspen's works, but given his
> derisive comments about free energy machines, I assume
> that he regards them as Voodoo Science too.
>
> The only thing that is worse than ignoring facts, is the
> sabotaging of experiments which conflict with your pet
> paradigm. Robert Cook, patentee of the Cook Inertial
> Propulsion System, forceborne.com , tells the story of an
> aircraft engineer who rewrote a computer program so that
> it would appear that the inertial drive wasn't producing
> any force. Cook's Drive, which will necessitate renaming
> Newton's third law, into a general rule, is reported to
> invalidate not only Newtonian Mechanics, but also the
> Relativistic Universe. One wonders if Dr. Park will
> incorporate this machine's operation into his physics
> course, but I assume that he will ignore it too. One is
> reminded of an article, published in Scientific American
> in 1905 asserting the impossibility of heaver than air
> flight. Given the Wright Brothers experiments of 1903,
> this article is a classic example of a defender of the old
> paradigm denying reality to the bitter end.Not content to
> stick to a field in which he is qualified to comment on,
> Dr. Park has ventured into medicine too. He has labeled
> energy medicine, the basis of the healing regimens of
> Rieke, Homeopathy, and Acupuncture as Voodoo Science.  He
> has also used the bully pulpit, which his position as
> editor of the APS's Newsletter affords him, to rail
> against the hard won law allowing us the freedom to
> purchase herbal nutritional supplements.  Rather than
> recommend double blind tests, which would establish the
> efficacy of alternative medicine, Dr. Park contends that
> they are the result of the placebo effect. Dr. Park also
> fails to mention the 250,000 people who die yearly as the
> result of mistakes on the part of Allopathic
> practitioners, and unexpected side effects of
> pharmaceutical drugs.  This number doesn't count the
> victims of cancer,  and AID's who die following
> chemotherapy. Since there is extensive evidence that both
> of these diseases can by eliminated by oxygen,
> nutritional, and energy therapies, these deaths should be
> added to the above figure of victims of the Allopathic
> medical monstrosity which he is defending. For Dr. Park to
> presume that he has the right to tell me which healing
> regimens I can use, and which nutritional supplements I
> can take, absolutely infuriates me. As a form of
> disrespect I gave him the moniquer of Parksie. Last summer
> while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was seriously injured
> when it fell on him. I have taken to making remarks like,
> we should take up a collection to buy Parksie some more
> chain saw gas, and I'd be willing to donate the shade tree
> in my front yard if he needs another tree to chop down.
> The fact that I'm unashamedly making these remarks about
> another human being, should weigh on my conscious, but in
> Parksie's case, I have to make an exception.
>
> --
>

--------------F261EA4F71DC71951057F3C1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Dear Thomas,
<br>While I agree with all you said, I wonder what effect this essay will
have on&nbsp; Park or on other people who think like him.&nbsp; Park has
the power of the APS behind him and the support of many people who agree
with his viewpoints.&nbsp; Unless you can publish your critical essay in
a place where it is read and respected by the general public, you are only
providing some entertainment for yourself.&nbsp; Park will only be replaced
when his pronouncements have become an embarrassment to the APS. This will
only happen when cold fusion and Zero point energy have become accepted,
or when Park has challenged a powerful institution. Being the bully he
is, this is something he will avoid doing.&nbsp; Meanwhile, I suggest reading
and rejecting Park in the same manner you reject most things seen on TV
and published in the press.
<p>Regards,
<br>Ed
<p>thomas malloy wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style>
<font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>Fellow
Vortexians;</font></font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>I
am posting this for your review and comments.</font></font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>Dear
Dr. Park;</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>I want to
give you a chance to comment on this.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>Robert Park
teaches physics at the University of Maryland. He also edits the American
Physical Society's Newsletter. He is a classic example of a post hole digger,
a Ph.D who doesn't know much. As a defender of the old paradigm he has
taken to referring to experiments, the results of which, conflict with
his pet paradigms, as voodoo science.</font></font></font><font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>In
1972 Thomas Kuhn published The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, in
which he talked about paradigm revolutions, and how defenders of the old
paradigm will ignore evidence which conflicts with their pet paradigm.
It is well established by experiment, that, when a palladium electrode
is electrolyzed in water, and anomalous heat is exhibited, that following
this process, a chemical analysis of the electrode will reveal the presence
of elements not in the electrode to begin with. If these elements are isolated,
and subjected to an isotopic analysis, the isotopic ratio will reveal the
presence of rare isotopes. I refer to these isotopes as 2%'ers because
they occur in nature in concentrations of less than 3%. Rather than acknowledge
the significance of these anomalous isotopic ratios, Dr. Park is reported
to have said, "I don't care about your isotopic ratios."</font></font></font>&nbsp;
<br><font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>There is
also a well established body of physical theory, the present advocates
of which are Puthoff and Aspden, and going back through Sakarov and Dirac,
back to the time of the natural philosophers, called the active aether.
If this energy could be cohered, it could provide a unlimited source of
energy. I have yet to hear what Dr. Park's reaction to Puthoff and Aspen's
works, but given his derisive comments about free energy machines, I assume
that he regards them as Voodoo Science too.</font></font></font>
<p><font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>The only thing
that is worse than ignoring facts, is the sabotaging of experiments which
conflict with your pet paradigm. Robert Cook, patentee of the Cook Inertial
Propulsion System, forceborne.com , tells the story of an aircraft engineer
who rewrote a computer program so that it would appear that the inertial
drive wasn't producing any force. Cook's Drive, which will necessitate
renaming Newton's third law, into a general rule, is reported to invalidate
not only Newtonian Mechanics, but also the Relativistic Universe. One wonders
if Dr. Park will incorporate this machine's operation into his physics
course, but I assume that he will ignore it too. One is reminded of an
article, published in Scientific American in 1905 asserting the impossibility
of heaver than air flight. Given the Wright Brothers experiments of 1903,
this article is a classic example of a defender of the old paradigm denying
reality to the bitter end.</font></font></font><font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>Not
content to stick to a field in which he is qualified to comment on, Dr.
Park has ventured into medicine too. He has labeled energy medicine, the
basis of the healing regimens of Rieke, Homeopathy, and Acupuncture as
Voodoo Science.&nbsp; He has also used the bully pulpit, which his position
as editor of the APS's Newsletter affords him, to rail against the hard
won law allowing us the freedom to purchase herbal nutritional supplements.&nbsp;
Rather than recommend double blind tests, which would establish the efficacy
of alternative medicine, Dr. Park contends that they are the result of
the placebo effect. Dr. Park also fails to mention the 250,000 people who
die yearly as the result of mistakes on the part of Allopathic practitioners,
and unexpected side effects of pharmaceutical drugs.&nbsp; This number
doesn't count the victims of cancer,&nbsp; and AID's who die following
chemotherapy. Since there is extensive evidence that both of these diseases
can by eliminated by oxygen, nutritional, and energy therapies, these deaths
should be added to the above figure of victims of the Allopathic medical
monstrosity which he is defending.</font></font></font>&nbsp;<font face="Palatino"><font color="#000000"><font size=+2>For
Dr. Park to presume that he has the right to tell me which healing regimens
I can use, and which nutritional supplements I can take, absolutely infuriates
me. As a form of disrespect I gave him the moniquer of Parksie. Last summer
while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was seriously injured when it fell
on him. I have taken to making remarks like, we should take up a collection
to buy Parksie some more chain saw gas, and I'd be willing to donate the
shade tree in my front yard if he needs another tree to chop down. The
fact that I'm unashamedly making these remarks about another human being,
should weigh on my conscious, but in Parksie's case, I have to make an
exception.</font></font></font>&nbsp;<x-sigsep>
<pre>--</pre>
</x-sigsep></blockquote>
</html>

--------------F261EA4F71DC71951057F3C1--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 10:37:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18687;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:34:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:34:37 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201131058.0480c220 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:20:23 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Park, Enron, falling trees, catastrophic change
In-Reply-To: <3C5AC209.7FA480C ix.netcom.com>
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"l3BpH1.0.qZ4.y-jMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45949
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Edmund Storms wrote:

>While I agree with all you said, I wonder what effect this essay will have 
>on  Park or on other people who think like him.  Park has the power of the 
>APS behind him and the support of many people who agree with his 
>viewpoints.  Unless you can publish your critical essay in a place where 
>it is read and respected by the general public, you are only providing 
>some entertainment for yourself.

Probably, but not necessarily. I think that one of the lessons of history 
is that powerful institutions and people are sometimes weaker than they 
appear to be, and sometimes a small shock administered in the right 
circumstances will topple them. Social and physical changes often occur 
catastrophically. A gradual, nearly invisible shift or weakening occurs, 
and then suddenly things change: a tree that looks solid suddenly falls; 
a  powerful and politically connected corporation goes bankrupt; the Soviet 
Russian and the Taliban dictatorships evaporate. I predicted that if cold 
fusion is ever accepted by society the event will occur rapidly, over a 
period of a few months.

Suppose we circulate a moderate, plausible sounding, well-written essay 
criticizing Dr. Park. It is possible (albeit unlikely) that someone in a 
position of influence at, say, the New York Times, might read it and spot a 
story. He might follow up, writing an expose of Park's heavy-handed 
tactics. The Times and other media often expose powerful people because 
that stirs up controversy and sells newspapers. Readers like to see 
powerful, arrogant people get their comeuppance. Park leaves himself 
vulnerable to attack. He has made many enemies. His statements are 
ignorant, extremist and inflammatory. When he gave a rabble-rousing talk at 
the APS, hundreds of people cheered and applauded, but that does not mean 
he will have their loyal support if he is exposed. During the French 
Revolution, the crowds cheered Robespierre, but they gradually came to fear 
he would become a dictator. In the end, he was consumed by the reign of 
terror he created.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 11:20:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15991;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:17:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:17:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3C5AE96A.452FA6CD bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:15:54 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Meteorite Injuries
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020201115558.04804a50@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"H_WCr2.0.mv3.rckMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45950
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
 
> As far as I know, no one has been struck by a meteorite. 

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ameteo.htm

"Human casualties

Scour the ancient chronicles and you will find many supposed
accounts of people suffering killer blows from rocks which fell
from the sky. It is often the case, however, that the details
surrounding such events are vague and questionable. Indeed, there
are no truly believable reports of any human deaths resulting
from a meteorite blow recorded within the last two hundred years.
Non-fatal injuries to humans and near-miss experiences have
certainly occurred, however, and probably the best contemporary
account of an injury is that of a woman in Aylacauga, Alabama,
being struck by a meteorite in 1954.

In the course of their investigations, Yau and co-workers came
across seven accounts of meteorite falls in which human
fatalities and injuries were recorded. In AD 616, for example, it
is reported that "a large shooting star like a bushel fell onto
the rebel Lu Ming-yueh's camp. It destroyed his wall-attacking
tower and crushed to death more than ten people." Another account
from 1341 reads, "it rained iron in Chin-ning. They damaged
crops. Most of the people and animals struck by them were
killed." The most recent account uncovered by Yau et al relates
to a fall (or April 25, 1915) in which a woman had her arm torn
off at the shoulder."

The meteorite that hit Ann Hodges presently resides in the
Alabama Museum of Natural History at UAB.  

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 12:23:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00966;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:20:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:20:55 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:20:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Meteorite Injuries
In-Reply-To: <3C5AE96A.452FA6CD bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020201121706.1339A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"AeW8k1.0.yE.bYlMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45951
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Terry Blanton wrote:

> certainly occurred, however, and probably the best contemporary
> account of an injury is that of a woman in Aylacauga, Alabama,
> being struck by a meteorite in 1954.

I remember seeing a picture of this woman in a hospital bed in a
Time-Life "Science" series book when I was a kid. She had a large bruise
just above her left hip. There was also a photo of the hole in her house
that the meteor made. 

Those Time Life books were very good. I wish they published a similar
but updated series that I could give to my kids. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 13:43:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01555;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:42:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:42:57 -0800
Message-ID: <3C5B0C31.34233BFA ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:44:17 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 01, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"RViGC.0.DO.XlmMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45953
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Feb 01, 2002
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:58:55 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 1 Feb 02   Washington, DC

1. SUMMER INTERN: THE APS WASHINGTON OFFICE HAS AN OPENING.  We
need a physics major with great writing skills and a genius IQ to
spend eight to ten weeks in Washington battling the forces of
ignorance.  The starting date is negotiable, but we're inflexible
on the genius thing.  Write victoria aps.org for details.  We'll
need a resume, writing sample and two references by March 29.

2. MISSILE-DEFENSE: SHIP-LAUNCHED INTERCEPTOR HITS DUMMY TARGET. 
Or was that, "dumb interceptor hits dumber target"?  Missile
defense proponents crowed that we now have all the components of
a national missile shield.  But an official quoted by AP said the
test "wasn't meant to determine if a ship-based interceptor could
intercept an enemy missile under realistic conditions."  The
target, after all, had a homing beacon.  To be part of a layered
national defense, WN was told, an interceptor would have to be 
at least twice as fast.  As one defense expert explained, "we're
now closer to a missile-defense shield to the extent that we're
closer to the moon when we stand on a step ladder."

3. ITER: A SECOND LOOK AT THE TURBULENT INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM? 
John Marburger, President Bush's science advisor, thinks U.S.
participation in the International Thermonuclear Experimental
Reactor should be reconsidered.  Congress directed DOE to pull
out of the project three years ago in the midst of disagreements
over the site, escalating costs, and scientific concerns that
plasma turbulence would make ignition impossible.  However, the
partners have since redesigned the device to meet scientific
objections, while scaling the cost down from $10B to $4.2B.  It
still remains to be seen if agreement can be reached on a site.

4. TERRORISM: COULD NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS WITHSTAND 9-11 ATTACKS? 
Maybe you saw it on 60-Minutes or the evening news: a film of a 
plane crashing into a massive concrete wall.  It disintegrates in
a fireball, but the wall is barely scratched.  Hill staffers were
shown the film at an ASME briefing by R.E. Nickell, "an expert on
nuclear power."  "Nuclear power structures," Nickell puffed, "are
very rugged and robust."  The implications were obvious, and most
American's breathed a little easier.  But it wasn't the wall of a
containment dome.  Paul Leventhal, the President of the Nuclear
Control Institute, points out that the test, conducted by Sandia
Labs in 1988, used a wall 12 feet thick compared with 3.5 foot
thick containment domes.  The purpose of the test was not to test
the strength of the wall, but to measure the impact forces.  The
wall, therefore, was designed to move, and was displaced 6 feet
by the impact.  Wait, there's more, the plane was a Phantom jet
fighter weighing about 5% as much as a jumbo jet airliner.  Its
fuel tanks were filled with water to measure "fuel" dispersion.
Sandia made no attempt to clear up the misleading reports.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 13:44:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00893;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:41:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:41:22 -0800
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:41:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Meteorite Injuries
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B88075A0.11C4%editor infinite-energy.com>
In-Reply-To: <3C5AE96A.452FA6CD bellsouth.net>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"siT2R2.0.ZD._jmMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45952
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On 2/1/02 11:15 AM, "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Non-fatal injuries to humans and near-miss experiences have
> certainly occurred, however, and probably the best contemporary
> account of an injury is that of a woman in Aylacauga, Alabama,
> being struck by a meteorite in 1954.


This case has been very well covered by such magazines as Sky and Telescope
and Astronomy.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 14:53:53 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22918;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:50:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:50:56 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201164426.052abe28 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:48:25 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Deffeyes book, "Hubbert's Peak"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZxEmR.0.wb5.FlnMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45954
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I recommend a book by Kenneth Deffeyes, "Hubbert's Peak," (Princeton 
University Press, 2001). The author predicts that world oil production will 
peak between 2002 and 2008. He bases this on a famous prediction made by 
geophysicist M. King Hubbert. In 1956, Hubbert showed that U.S. production 
would probably peak in the early 1970s. Hubbert updated his curve in 1962 
with 6 more years of actual production data. He turned out to be a little 
optimistic: U.S. production peaked in 1970 at 10 million barrels per day. 
It has now fallen to 6 million per day. Hubbert did not take into account 
the Alaskan fields, but they did significantly prolong production, even 
though they which are among the biggest ever found in the U.S. More U.S. 
oil was discovered in the decade from 1930 to 1940 than in any previous or 
subsequent decade, even though prospecting techniques are much improved 
today. From 1930 to 1940, every year the total discovered was between 2 and 
8 billion barrels. In the last four decades (1960 to 2000), in 34 years no 
significant amount of oil was found. In six of those years about 100 
million barrels were found. Every potential large field in the U.S. has 
been prospected. Some of the oil remaining in U.S. fields may be recovered 
with enhanced technology, but it will be expensive.

Deffeyes applies Hubbert's techniques to the world supply of oil and 
estimated reserves. He makes a convincing case that the world production 
has leveled off and will reach a peak just about now, somewhere between 
2004 and 2008. He predicts dire economic consequences if we do not prepare 
for the transition to renewable energy sources. I do not think it will 
necessarily lead to as many economic problems as he fears. People in Japan 
and Europe have coped with higher fuel costs than the U.S. for a long time. 
Once the price of gasoline reaches $3 or $4 per gallon, alternative sources 
of fuel will become cost-effective and will rapidly replace gasoline. The 
CEOs of BP and Shell Oil have recently said they are planning for a 
near-term transition to the post-oil world.

Deffeyes is a retired university professor. He seems to be the sort of 
professor who loves to teach, and loves research and discovery. The book is 
written in a conversational style, like a relaxed, witty lecture -- the 
kind you remember vividly years after college. Deffeys intersperse serious 
academic content with dozens of personal anecdotes, asides and corny jokes. 
In the hands of a less gifted writer this would be a distraction. It 
bothers one of the reviewers on Amazon.com, but I find it charming, along 
with photograph on back cover of the author holding his adorable 
two-year-old granddaughter.

Here is an eerie coincidence. On January 31, 2002 the Japanese newspapers 
reported their latest Census Bureau studies showing the population will 
peak at almost the same time Deffeyes predicts oil production will. 
Population should reach 126 million this decade, and it will rapidly shrink 
after that. (There is no way this trend can be reversed for at least 
several years, given the distribution of women at child-bearing ages.) If 
present trends continue, by 2100 the population will be roughly 50 million, 
about the same as present day France or Italy. People in Japan are upset 
about this, but I do not understand why. France or Italy are big countries. 
I think Japan is too crowded and it would be good to see the population 
returned to levels last seen in around 1900. I expect the birthrate will 
once again climb to replacement levels (2.1 children per woman) once people 
have more living space and more humane working conditions.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 15:52:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00618;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:49:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:49:56 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:49:20 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <469m5u011efdrhqojrncdvrlfo9gd9f7pp 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b87f45d1c053 [12.21.211.39]> <kuej5ug7hpds0hnvo51crngrfa43kmvrt6@4ax.com> <00d701c1aaae$b9462d20$8837fea9@computer> <im2k5us2ef1o1c97qen0s6aongr2amkdms@4ax.com> <001c01c1ab36$744be880$8837fea9@computer>
In-Reply-To: <001c01c1ab36$744be880$8837fea9 computer>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA00545
Resent-Message-ID: <"Gjd4M2.0.U9.ZcoMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45955
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:38:09 -0800:
[snip]
>A google search for {"2,135,615" farnsworth} turned up 4 hits, one of them being
>the Borderlands article (citing an old Radio magazine article) that I believe
>was the original source of that soundbyte. OK, I know. Not exactly your most
>authoritative source .... Somewhere else, I think it said that Philo got a full
>25 watts of rf power from 25 watts of DC input. If you include the heat and so
>forth, that's OU - but also remember in the 1930's aluminum was a very expensive
[snip]
>> Then please explain the glow in the electrolyte.
>
>Electroluminescence?

Possible, but I got the impression from Horace's post that this was only
a high voltage phenomenon. Horace am I wrong?

>
>Google gives over 10k hits on that one, but of course, the UV from hydrinos
>could be behind the electroluminescence itself - but for the Occam folks,  it
>can occur in far less demanding situations, i.e. in the primitive biochemistry
>of fireflies and krill...
>
>...unless those guys use hydrinos too....
>
>Plus if it were hydrinos, wouldn't you have a clearer energy anomaly, especially
>with the nuclear transmutation? 

Actually yes, I would have thought so.

>Plus, I think the lack of gammas is conclusive.
>You just can't hide MeV gammas.
>
>Jones
They can't be hidden if they are created. However I suspect that
hydrinos may fuse in new ways, as yet beyond current experience.

e.g. the electron from the hydrino would be very close to the target
nucleus at the moment of fusion. This could have two consequences.

1) It could enhance the chances of an EC reaction in situations where EC
is possible.

2) It may absorb some or all of the fusion energy, resulting in an
energetic electron. This could be akin to an Auger electron process,
where however the energy comes not from an electron dropping to a lower
level, but directly from the nucleus. 

It's even possible that the entire hydrino gets absorbed into the
nucleus, electron and all, then the electron either gets ejected,
carrying the energy, or absorbed in an EC reaction.

(2) above implies that reactions like:

Hy + Al27 -> Si28+(ground state) + e- + 11.55 MeV

may be possible, where the electron carries away the energy, perhaps
without gammas.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 23:44:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28764;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:43:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:43:35 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100307b880bbb84cf6 [4.46.76.72]>
In-Reply-To: <im2k5us2ef1o1c97qen0s6aongr2amkdms 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b87f45d1c053 [12.21.211.39]>
 <kuej5ug7hpds0hnvo51crngrfa43kmvrt6 4ax.com>
 <00d701c1aaae$b9462d20$8837fea9 computer>
 <im2k5us2ef1o1c97qen0s6aongr2amkdms 4ax.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:41:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"1quf9.0.J17.dYvMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45958
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robin Van Spaandon posted

>In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:26:34 -0800:
>[snip]
>>Also as far back as 1938, the amazing Philo Farnsworth reported in  patent #
>>2,135,615 , a Multipactor design that utilized a cathode with many apertures
>>through which electrons are accelerated to another cathode with a theoretical
>  >gain of over 10* e>6 (at the expense of voltage) that Aluminum 
>cathodes operated
>>at greater energy gain than unity, but lasted only minutes.
>
>Interesting, is this on the web?
>
Farnsworth's patents are available, I linked to them from Chris Arnold's site.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 23:45:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28486;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:43:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:43:26 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a0510030bb8812d09ed36 [4.46.76.72]>
In-Reply-To: <8c.1365d2b9.298c151c aol.com>
References: <8c.1365d2b9.298c151c aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:41:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: memory test...need information
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"VpCoJ2.0.ky6.TYvMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45957
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>I have a good friend who has measitatic brest cancer.  It is now in both
>
>Frank Znidarsic

My theories about controlling cancer are on my website.
-- 
Thomas Malloy, Minnesota Real Estate Broker
2433 S. 16 Ave.
Minnespolis MN 55404
Phone 612 722 0069
Fax   413 647 9599
http://www.artresearch.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  1 23:46:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28386;
	Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:43:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:43:21 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a0510030ab880ca87c7aa [4.46.76.72]>
In-Reply-To: <3C5AC209.7FA480C ix.netcom.com>
References: <a05100310b87f53ac9ab4 [4.46.76.77]>
 <3C5AC209.7FA480C ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:41:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Park
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"x5V_Y2.0.Qx6.OYvMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45956
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Fellow Vortexians

  Thank you for all your suggestions. First of all, Thank you for all 
your suggestions

>Ed Storms posted;

>While I agree with all you said, I wonder what effect this essay 
>will have on  Park or on other people who think like him.  Park has 
>the power of the APS

This piece was written for conservative talk radio. BTW, Ed, if you 
think Rush Limbaugh is conservative, you should tune in Michael 
Savage, he and Roger Fridenberg who actually talks about the New 
World Odor, I mean Order, on the Talk Radio Network, are so far to 
the right that they make Rush seem like the moderate he is. I'm going 
to point out that If we would just develop this technology we could 
tell the Arabs were to stick their oil. I'm going to make the point 
that this is your tax dollars at work.

I'm also going to point out the story of the $150,000,000,000 that 
the hot fusioneers have spent on their toys, and how, having spent 
that amount, over the last 40 years, they are at about 85% unity. I'm 
going to point out that the C F people, OTOH, have spent only a few 
tens of millions, all privately raised, and have demonstrated COP's 
in the 1000 range.

I'm interested in your reaction to the isotopic ratios Ed, Am I 
correct in what I said about the 2%'ers? IMHO, a concentration of 
2%'ers, is more significant than the other isotopes because of their 
rarity in nature. Does anyone know of a compendium of C F results 
which addresses this issue.

>   Park will only be replaced when his pronouncements have become an 
>embarrassment to the APS.

Don't hold your breath Ed, he will be there until he retires.

>This will only happen when cold fusion and Zero point energy have 
>become accepted,

It would help if there was working commercially feasible machines 
based on this technology, Particularly the ZPE.

>  or when Park has challenged a powerful institution. Being the bully 
>he is, this is something he will avoid doing.

It sounds like you have personal experience with Parksie, Ed.

>  Meanwhile, I suggest reading and rejecting Park in the same manner 
>you reject most things seen on TV and published in the press.

Parksie has a talent for making himself unignorable Ed. You are right 
however, that because of his extremism and unflexability, he makes an 
excellent opponet.

later Ed Posted;

  Readers like to see powerful, arrogant people get their comeuppance.

Parksie Isn't high profile enough Ed, Now if he was the president of 
the Screen Actors Guild.

  Park leaves himself vulnerable to attack. He has made many enemies. 
His statements are ignorant, extremist and inflammatory. When he gave 
a rabble-rousing talk at the APS, hundreds of people cheered and 
applauded,

This observation reminds me what I've always said about academics, 
Ed. They are just like the rest of us, only better educated.

but that does not mean he will have their loyal support if he is 
exposed. During the French Revolution, the crowds cheered 
Robespierre, but they gradually came to fear he would become a 
dictator

Ed went on to talk about how the public,  will suddenly embrace C F.

Yah Ed, that will happen just as soon as someone comes up with a 
technology that can be scaled up into a power plant, or an automobile 
engine.

This reminds me of an exchange I had with someone on Vortex-L who had 
developed the color T V tube for RCA. He said that, IHHO, it would 
take 20 years to turn BLP's technology into a home heating unit. I 
disagreed with him, then he told me about his credentials. I've found 
that it is never a good idea to argue with someone who knows more 
about something than you do.

This discussion about Parksie and the APS makes me wish that Otto 
Schmitt was still alive. Otto would have sided with us, and he was 
the 800 pound gorilla, in APSland, that could have brought Parksie to 
heal. Otto was a really good guy, but, once I saw a side of him that 
made me realize that he was a skilled infighter, well, that's how you 
get to be department head, eh?


Jed Rothwell posted;

  If the concentration increased from 2% to 5%, it would not be 
impressive. I don't know Jed, 2% to 5% is a 150% increase.

>the Cook Inertial Propulsion System, forceborne.com , tells the 
>story of an aircraft engineer who rewrote a computer program so that 
>it would appear that the inertial drive wasn't producing any force.

Unless this story is well-documented and you know it is a fact, I 
would leave it out. It is amusing, but stories like this can seldom 
be verified.

I got the story directly from Robert Cook. I have reason to believe 
that he is telling the truth, and anyway, it makes the point.


>Parksie some more chain saw gas, and I'd be willing to donate the 
>shade tree in my front yard if he needs another tree to chop down.

This is very bad taste. It is uncalled for. Publishing statements 
like this will make you look bad.

Your rigth Jed, It's funny, but in bad taste, and on top of that the 
tree fell on him.

Charles Ford posted;

>.  Should he fail to do this one thing he ruins his
>integrity and places everything else he has said in jeopardy.

Park did all of the above
>
>Now this stuff is realty hilarious if you look at it close
>enough.
>
>And what was it that Dr Parks is a Dr - of ???  I was pretty
>sure it wasn't medical.  I could be wrong here

>Physics, But plenty of physicists have a understanding of energy healing.
>
>2. As a form of disrespect I gave him the moniquer of Parksie.
>
>cute... I like it
>
>And this is big one :-)
>
>3. Last summer while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was
>seriously injured when it fell on him.
>
>Excellent work for someone who seems to be so knowledgeable in
>physics.  To predict which way a tree would fall?  Or maybe he
>just thought he was GOD  ???


Too Bad this story just isn't true. He was jogging and the tree fell 
on him, OTOH, you can see it as karma


>
>4. I have taken to making remarks like, we should take up a
>collection to buy Parksie some more chain saw gas, and I'd be
>willing to donate....
>
>Yah yah... Where do I send the money?
>
It makes me laugh every time I read it.


Terry Blanton wrote:

>"Also, [Park] reported that when the tree fell
>on him in September, 2000, it was after several days of rain and
>that he was on a jogging trail he had been using for years. He said it
>gave him a new perspective on the probability of rare events."

That is a dumb comment. Falling trees are not rare, the event was not 
random. I have often seen and heard trees fall in the woods, 
especially after several days

Hum, A Communicator on talk radio brought this subject up. There was 
a minister and his family that were crusing down a highway when a 
tree came crashing down on the car and bam, they were toast. The 
Communicator was going on coincidence. Have you heard about the state 
lotto on 12/31/01 that came with those three numbers. The incident 
with the minister and his family reminds me of a similar incident 
that happened to another minister who was crusing down the freeway 
when the side of a bridge fell off and splat, landed on top of his 
car. I guess when your number is up, it's up.




-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  2 01:58:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13162;
	Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:56:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:56:12 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b8815da1c55b [12.21.208.110]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:58:36 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Resent-Message-ID: <"jSuzl2.0.YD3.xUxMy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45959
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:49 AM 2/2/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>Possible, but I got the impression from Horace's post that this was only
>a high voltage phenomenon. Horace am I wrong?

No, you are right. In various cases the glow only kicked in well above 300
V, with the amount of glow being proportional to voltage above the onset
voltage.  Obtaining a good glow required running above 700 V in some cases.


It is also true that thin wire anodes make for a more visible glow, and
that my notes say that the intensity of the glow appeared to be possibly
proportional to current density.

I employed a conditioning process on new electrodes prior to live runs, in
order to build up the surface film involved.  This conditioning process had
to start at lower voltage and higher current than the live runs with the
conditioned electrodes.  As the films formed the voltage would be manually
raised so as to maintain an acceptable current, unitl equilibrium was
reached.  The thin films typically formed a  layer that prevented current
flow below a critical voltage, and then limited the current above the
critical voltage similar to a zenier.   In various cases, once conditioning
was complete, a sinusioidal voltage curve typically resulted in a
trapezoidal current waveform, where the current trapezoids were well
seperated.  Conditioning typically took about 5 - 10 minutes.  In some
cases the glow onset occurred as the voltage setting was manually raised,
but eventually disappeared as conditioning took place and the electrospark
regime was entered.  Zr electrodes produced glow and electrospark
conditions simultaneously, with very low electrode wear, but formed a thick
white protective coating without changing weight, while producing a COP of
about 1.11.  AL electrodes produced a COP of 1.6, but I did not consider
the calorimetry reliable at the time.  If memory serves, CaO electrolyte
when used with Al electrodes had the main benfit that the glow condition
could be maintained as long as the electrodes lasted, which was very long
due to the thick wire employed.

I think the films on the electrodes in some cases were semiconductors.
Most runs not focused on the blue glow were run using AC in order to allow
the electrodes a healing cycle.  When AC was used, in some cases it
appeared the films would form opposing diodes, which acted a capacitors.
When AC was employed, various runs showed the blue glow and sparks around
both electrodes simultaneously.  I suspect the kick-in voltage for the blue
glow might have had something to do with the current being suppressed by
the films below a specific voltage, often near 200 V, though the glow was
visible with Al electrodes in CaO from the first seconds, if I recall,
provided the voltage was large enough.  If semiconductor films are
involved, it could be the glow actually comes through the surface film via
hole-electron annihilation at an n-p boundary, but I feel this is just not
so.   That glow looked to be out in the electrolyte.  It could be that the
glow was H and O recombination, but then a transport mechanism must exist
to get the hydrogen from the cathode to the vicinity of the anode so as to
maintain H concentration.  I simply did not pin down the cause and nature
of the glow.  My focus at the time was on the calorimetry.

I should mention that I had some collaborators in the work that was done,
but I don't mention names in order to protect the reputations of the
innocent.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  2 11:16:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12778;
	Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:14:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:14:10 -0800
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:22:11 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: sol
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020202142137.8100B-110000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=ISf2FlUepn40IhreDUQRc4UthPrblSqZiwGfOy6
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020202142137.8100C college.antioch-college.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"8YI15.0.X73.1g3Ny" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45960
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--ISf2FlUepn40IhreDUQRc4UthPrblSqZiwGfOy6
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020202142137.8100D college.antioch-college.edu>


	
	

--ISf2FlUepn40IhreDUQRc4UthPrblSqZiwGfOy6
Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020202142137.8100E college.antioch-college.edu>
Content-Description: 

Received: (qmail 7545 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2002 19:06:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172)
  by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2002 19:06:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO college.antioch-college.edu) (192.131.123.11)
  by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2002 19:06:25 -0000
Received: from localhost (herman localhost)
	by college.antioch-college.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g12JETp08049;
	Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:14:29 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:14:29 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: antigrav <greenglow yahoogroups.com>
cc: groupe de Jean-Louis Naudin <jlnlabs egroups.com>,
   "Soucoupes Volantes,M.O.C et SETI" <Soucoupes-Volantes egroups.com>,
   Vesselin Petkov <vpetkov alcor.concordia.ca>,
   Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Re: particle and wave:Daniel, in this email you have  transformed yourself from a physicist to a lawyer!
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20020202040542.0074a250 aqua.ocn.ne.jp>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020202140648.4627G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


	Dear Folks,

	A soliton never was a particle.

	It LOOKS like:

	electrON
        protON
        muON
        iON

        BUT:    It really means "single wave form"


	The soliton was first Written About in 1800s:

        John Scott Russell (1808-1882) WRITES:

       I was observing the motion of a boat which was rapidly drawn
along a narrow channel by a pair of horses, when the boat suddenly stopped
      - not so the mass of water in the channel which it had put in
motion; it accumulated round the prow of the vessel in a state of violent
agitation, then suddenly leaving it behind, rolled forward with great
velocity, assuming the form of a large solitary elevation, a rounded,
smooth and well-defined heap of water, which continued its course along
the channel apparently without change of form or diminution of speed. I
followed it on horseback, and overtook it still rolling on at a rate of
some eight or nine miles an hour, preserving its original figure some
thirty feet long and a foot to a foot and a half in height. Its height
gradually diminished, and after a chase of one or two miles I lost it in
the windings of the channel. Such, in the month of August 1834, was my
first chance interview with that singular and beautiful phenomenon which I
have called the Wave of Translation''.


	Much later, in general after 1960s, it got its "new name".


	This citation, above, is an example of why I am a Scholar of the
History and Ethics of Science.   In addition to the great interest,
someone who knows or begins to know the history of the experients and why
our terms mean what they do can have a greater real understanding  of
science.
	
	In my opinion.


	OR:  Onw may simply use words and never examine where they came
from and what they mean.   Or one may derive a great deal of the education
from the URL sites ......   and have to un learn 10 to 900 percent of this
before you begin to understand.....

	Poor Linus.


						JH 


--ISf2FlUepn40IhreDUQRc4UthPrblSqZiwGfOy6--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  2 15:55:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27708;
	Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:52:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:52:13 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Experiments at Mitsubishi
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:51:36 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <njro5usj2clrbvmrauun5bc0vo4mjr7r43 4ax.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA27683
Resent-Message-ID: <"1DfWl1.0.rm6.ik7Ny" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45961
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

In IE #41 2002, Jed reports on experiments by T. Itoh and M. Sakano from
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.
Two reactions in particular drew my attention.
In the first scandium is converted to molybdenum, in the second, cesium
is converted to praseodymium.

I would like to offer the following possible reaction mechanism, which
is identical in both cases.

(2*Du2)- + Sr88 -> Mo96++++ + 5e- + 53.4 MeV

and

(2*Du2)- + Cs133 -> Pr141++++ + 5e- + 50.5 MeV

In both cases the "(2*Du2)-" comprises a negatively charged molecular
clump of two severely shrunken deuterino molecules that is held together
by van der Waals forces which would be much stronger on the smaller
scale of shrunken deuterinos than at the scale of normal deuterium. In a
sense one can think of it as the first stage in the liquefaction of
deuterino molecules.
In short deuterinos that were severely shrunken would combine to form
deuterino molecules, these molecules would start to clump together if
sufficiently small, and a minimal such clump of two molecules might
acquire an extra electron resulting in an overall negative charge.
(Or perhaps one molecule might acquire a charge before "clumping").
Note that such a molecular clump could be a 1000 times smaller than a
hydrogen atom. As such it could find its way into the vicinity of a
nucleus with a heavy positive charge (e.g. Sr or Cs), displacing an
inner electron of said atom in the process (or might actually form in
situ). Because it is extremely heavy, and negatively charged it would
attempt to take up an incredibly tight orbit about the heavy nucleus,
and fail miserably, instead immediately being absorbed in a nuclear
reaction that would eject the deuterino electrons, which would carry
away the energy of the reaction, distributed between them.
(On average about 10 MeV each).
Note that both Sr and Cs are Mills catalysts. Furthermore, slowly
accumulating anecdotal evidence suggests that nuclear reactions
frequently occur between newly shrunken hydrino/deuterino and catalyst
atom. Perhaps because the "last" shrinkage step reduces the radius by
enough to increase the chances of fusion by a very large amount. Large
enough to ensure that the reaction happens immediately, before the
hydrino/deuterino has a chance to leave the scene.

The mechanism as described here has as an advantage that it comprises
steps each of which is statistically likely (i.e. no three particle
collisions are required), and it allows large steps in the periodic
table to occur, while releasing energy in the form of energetic
electrons that are easily stopped by the container walls.

Problem: Why would the Du wait to combine with the catalyst nucleus
rather than combining immediately with itself to form helium?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  3 11:30:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25757;
	Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:26:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:26:35 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b8832567850a [12.21.211.57]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 10:29:09 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: The importance of electron flux in cold fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"NdjaX.0.HI6.hxONy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45962
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think it is especially interesting that flux, i.e. current per area, can
be a critical factor in creating fusion reactions in metal.  One would
think intuitively that only the kinetic energy of the electrons would be
critical.

A number of papers were published by Kamada et al (e.g. Jpn. J. Appl. Phys.
Vol. 35 (1996) pp. 738-747) in which it was determined that electron flux
was critical to initiating D-D fusion in deuterium previously depostied in
Al by ion bombardment.

The flux Kamada used was 4x10^19 electrons/cm^2/s, which I calculate to be
6.41 A/cm^2.   Kamada observed that the flux must be over 1x10^19
electrons/cm^2/s to obtain fusion, which I estimate to be 1.6 A/cm^2.

The electron stopping power |dE/dt| = 0.07 eV/Angstrom = 7x10^6 eV/cm.
Kamada used a 170 kEv electron beam on deutrium deposited to a depth of 100
angstroms, so very little energy was removed from the beam by the aluminum
prior to the reaction, about 7 eV per electron.

Kamada determined a reaction rate of 5x10-15 events per electron, or
2x10^14 electrons per event.  However, the fusion events per hydrogen pair
in the target is 2.8x10^12 events/H-H pair.  The events per collision based
on the stimulation energy was calculated to be 10-12 to 10-26 times less
than the observed events.  In this sense, the fusion reactions were very
"cold" indeed.  This leads one (me anyway) to speculate that the beam
energy may not be so critical to the reaction rate.  The beam electrons
seem to simply zip right on through the target vicinity.  It would
therefore seem possible, given that cold fusion is possible at electrolysis
voltages, that it is merely the secondary electrons, which have absorbed on
average the 7 eV per incident electron, that would be far more numerous and
thus likely to catalyse the reaction.  If one in 100 electrons from the
beam interact with the lattice in the 100 nm target, then the initial
secondary electrons would have about 700 eV on average.

A notable characteristic of the electrospark phenomenon, discussed here
prior, is the concentration of current into visible "hot spots."  This may
occur due to anode/cathode spot dynamics characteristics of all metal arcs,
or may be infulenced by film formation on the electrodes.  Regardless the
mechanism that brings it about, there is undoubtedly a concentration of
current in nearly microscopic sized electrospark hot spots that brings
about flux far in excess of 1.6 A/cm^2.  It seem reasonable to hypotheize
that, for a given environment, there exists a function f(E, rho), which,
all else being equal, describes fusion rate as a fuction of both electron
energy and flux, and which operates down into the low kEv regime.

Regardles of the fact that the Kamada et al experiment is implemented in a
regime vastly different from the high voltage electrolysis regime, both in
hydrogen pressure (which is in the MPa range in Al)  and in particle energy
range, the ability of an electron beam to catalyse fusion, and the critical
nature of flux density, might reasonably be expected to carry over into the
electrolytic regime.   Further, it is reasonable to hypothesize that
electron flux may be capable of catalysing low energy nuclear reactions
within electrode metals, surface films, or even in the electrolyte
environment itself.

My observations of the blue glow indicate a strong response to both current
density and voltage.  If a low energy nuclear reaction (LENR) of some kind
is at work, it would be most worthwhile to carry out the experiments using
heavy water.  Kamada et al, and Claytor et al as well, obtained nominal p-p
fusion, but rates of D-D fusion far exceeding expectations for the energy
levels used.  The fact that Claytor had success with thin wires in the gas
regime may be an indication not of the importance of the field gradient
about the thin wire, but rather the importance of electron flux.

My experimental results and hypotheses indicate that an important arena of
study is high flux high voltage electorolysis, in a heavy water
environment.  Emphasis should be placed on maximizing and measuring
electron/ion flux.  More emphasis should be placed on characterizing the
thermodynamics of the anode and electrolyte than has been done in the past.
This can be achieved by physically isolating each of these elements, or
parts of the elements, for calorimetry, and other observations.

If LENR is found to be at work in the electrolyte, then more effort should
be placed on examining the possible involvement of the negative ions, e.g
hydroxyls, sulfates and especially carbonates which are a natural
contamination from exposure of electrolytes to air, especialy the presence
of these anions in large electron or proton flux.

The critical nature of flux, in addition to particle energy, in electron
catalysis, and the fact reaction rates are off by many orders of magnitude
for the energy levels involved, is in my opinion strongly indicative of an
non-particle phenomenon at the heart of the catalysis.  The explanation can
not be found in simple kinetics, and a true explantion may be very deep and
elusive.  It seems that a full understanding of the nature of the catalysis
need not be understood to make use of the phenomena, only a few basic
features need be understood well enough to do breakthorugh or even
practical work.  It appears the importance of flux is one of those
features.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  3 13:28:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26310;
	Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:25:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:25:30 -0800
From: jonesb9 pacbell.net
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:29:20 -0800
Subject: Re: The importance of electron flux in cold fusion
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <3C5DABB0.6375CBC8 pacbell.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Accept-Language: en
References: <v01530500b8832567850a [12.21.211.57]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ShW9U2.0.0R6.AhQNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45963
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
 
> A number of papers were published by Kamada et al (e.g. Jpn. J. Appl. Phys.
> Vol. 35 (1996) pp. 738-747) in which it was determined that electron flux
> was critical to initiating D-D fusion in deuterium previously depostied in
> Al by ion bombardment....Kamada observed that the flux must be over 1x10^19
> electrons/cm^2/s to obtain fusion, which I estimate to be 1.6 A/cm^2.

Given this combined with your previous post where you thought the
voltage potential of >2000 has some relevance, then one interesting set
of old experiments comes to mind, which might be worth revisiting. 

The "exploding wire" phenomena of twenty years ago never went anywhere
in terms of an energy device - but it is clear that copious neutrons
were obtained in very simple circumstances by charging up hv caps and
blasting wires that were impregnated with deuterium. I wonder if the
electron flux in those experiments was in Kamada's range.

The range of an amp or two per sq.cm is coincidentally about the maximum
for thermionic emissions, i.e. refractory metals can't "boil off" more
than this number of electrons no matter how hot they get. Is there a
connection?

Probably not, because the limiting factors in thermionics are "space
charge" and "work function," but if there were some deeper connection,
like a saturation level
where electrostatically contained electrons start "coagulating" against
mutual repulsion, then who knows?

As I mentioned earlier, it seems that there could be some relevance here
to "charge clusters." ~2000 v may even be a threshold of sorts in that
technology also.

> It seems that a full understanding of the nature of the catalysis
> need not be understood to make use of the phenomena, only a few basic
> features need be understood well enough to do breakthorugh or even
> practical work.  It appears the importance of flux is one of those
> features.

Have you pinpointed any features besides potential and flux?

Are you familiar with the old exploding wire phenomena? It seems that is
apropos for this line of reasoning. I think I'll do a web search and see
if anyone is still active in that niche.

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  3 14:17:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23904;
	Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:13:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:13:15 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The importance of electron flux in cold fusion
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:12:41 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <uadr5ukabjtlakp01poqp7p5fsku1s3ria 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b8832567850a [12.21.211.57]> <3C5DABB0.6375CBC8@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <3C5DABB0.6375CBC8 pacbell.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA23862
Resent-Message-ID: <"2i4l93.0.Mr5.xNRNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45964
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  jonesb9 pacbell.net's message of Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:29:20
-0800:
[snip]
>The "exploding wire" phenomena of twenty years ago never went anywhere
>in terms of an energy device - but it is clear that copious neutrons
>were obtained in very simple circumstances by charging up hv caps and
>blasting wires that were impregnated with deuterium. I wonder if the
>electron flux in those experiments was in Kamada's range.
[snip]
I think exploding wires goes back to Tesla.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  3 15:14:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24751;
	Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:11:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:11:15 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8835e27da85 [12.21.209.215]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:13:54 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: The importance of electron flux in cold fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"iWZxy.0.f26.JESNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45965
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:29 PM 2/3/2, jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> A number of papers were published by Kamada et al (e.g. Jpn. J. Appl. Phys.
>> Vol. 35 (1996) pp. 738-747) in which it was determined that electron flux
>> was critical to initiating D-D fusion in deuterium previously depostied in
>> Al by ion bombardment....Kamada observed that the flux must be over 1x10^19
>> electrons/cm^2/s to obtain fusion, which I estimate to be 1.6 A/cm^2.
>
>Given this combined with your previous post where you thought the
>voltage potential of >2000 has some relevance, then one interesting set
>of old experiments comes to mind, which might be worth revisiting.
>
>The "exploding wire" phenomena of twenty years ago never went anywhere
>in terms of an energy device - but it is clear that copious neutrons
>were obtained in very simple circumstances by charging up hv caps and
>blasting wires that were impregnated with deuterium. I wonder if the
>electron flux in those experiments was in Kamada's range.


I did some exploding wire experiments in the 60's, using a 10 kEv
capacitor, but not using wires with adsorbed hydrogen.  I used it for
undwater explosive forming of sheet metal.


>
>The range of an amp or two per sq.cm is coincidentally about the maximum
>for thermionic emissions, i.e. refractory metals can't "boil off" more
>than this number of electrons no matter how hot they get. Is there a
>connection?


An interesting observation.   Perhaps in Kamada's experiment, as you
speculate below, it has to do with achieving a "critical mass" of sorts, of
accumulated charge, by bombarding the surface with more incoming electrons
than can be outgoing.  However, the metal conducts away electrons at much
more than 100 A/cm^2, so I don't see right off how surface dynamics play a
significant role.  Perhaps conduction electron mean free path is a critical
factor?  After some reflection, I think it just has to be the forcing of
the current flow into the arc regime. The ou characteristics seem to be a
function of the formation of highly conductive hot spots, with their
corresponding huge current densities.

Some side information.  The limit to electron boiloff is actually the limit
to the structural integrity of the metal.  Thermionic emission is given by:

    i = A T^2 exp(-phi/(k*T))

where A is a constant depending on the surface material, phi is the work
function in eV, k = 8.6x10^-5 eV/deg. = Boltzmann's constant, and T is
absolute temp. in deg. K.  The work function corresponds to the energy that
an electron must be achieve to break free of both the surface and the space
charge near the surface of the emitter. Here are some example work
functions (from CRC Handbook):

Element   Phi (eV)

Ag        4.26 - 4.64
Al        4.06 - 4.41
Ca        2.87
Cu        4.48 - 4.65
Fe        3.95 - 4.63
Mg        3.66
Ni        5.04 - 5.35
Pb        4.25
Pt        5.65 - 5.7
Si        4.6 - 4.91
W         4.55
Zr        4.05


Variation in phi are based on the source ref., so phi must be difficult to
measure and variable in circumstances.   Oxide coated tungsten drops to phi
= 1.0 eV, but the constant A drops from 60.2 A cm^-2 deg^-2 down to
1.0x10^-2 A cm^-2 deg^-2.  Thoriated tungsten has phi =  2.8 eV.

Some sample values of A:

Element   A (A cm^-2 deg^-2)

Ca        2.24
Ni        60.2
Pt        1.7x10^-4
W         60.2
W         1.0x10^-2  (oxide coated)
W         15.5  (Thoriated)

Tungsten operating at 2,500 deg. K emits 0.35 A/cm^2  Thoriated tungsten
operating at 1,900 deg. K emits at 1.2 A/cm^2.   Barium-strontium oxide at
1,000 deg. K emits at 3 A/cm^2.

At currents above the thermionic emission level arcs and their associated
cathode and anode spots form, which have very special physics of their own.


>
>Probably not, because the limiting factors in thermionics are "space
>charge" and "work function," but if there were some deeper connection,
>like a saturation level
>where electrostatically contained electrons start "coagulating" against
>mutual repulsion, then who knows?
>
>As I mentioned earlier, it seems that there could be some relevance here
>to "charge clusters." ~2000 v may even be a threshold of sorts in that
>technology also.
>
>> It seems that a full understanding of the nature of the catalysis
>> need not be understood to make use of the phenomena, only a few basic
>> features need be understood well enough to do breakthorugh or even
>> practical work.  It appears the importance of flux is one of those
>> features.
>
>Have you pinpointed any features besides potential and flux?


The nature of the electrode surface coating seems to be also critical, but
its primary role may be simply to channel high currents into narrow
cahnnels that break down and are then healed in order to perform their
functions repeatedly.  The other function is to limit current and to permit
buildup of a large voltage prior to the breakdown.  I don't know that any
of this has to do with the blue glow, however, other than to suppress it if
current levels (density) drops too low.  It is entirely possible that the
narrow current channels (or anode spots) act as accelerators and that the
glow is merely the result of lots of tiny beams of ejecta from anode spots
reacting with the electrolyte.  The ejecta would consist of anode material.



>
>Are you familiar with the old exploding wire phenomena? It seems that is
>apropos for this line of reasoning. I think I'll do a web search and see
>if anyone is still active in that niche.

Yes, but not personally with the hydrated variety.

Here is a wild and probably bogus thought.  Perhaps secondary emission
plays a role of some kind.  Secondary emission is the emission of extra
electrons from the impingement of the primary electron, and is the
principle used to make photmultiplier tubes.  Secondary emission is very
very low for carbon and zirconium.  Here are some values:

          Best      Max
Element   Voltage   Emission  (secondaries per primary)

Al        220       1.9
Au        330       1.14
Fe        350       1.3
Ni        460       1.3
W         630       1.4

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  3 17:29:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21127;
	Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:26:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:26:33 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8838412c31e [12.21.209.215]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:29:08 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Cathode Spots and Electron Pair tunneling
Resent-Message-ID: <"UFw4j2.0.1A5.8DUNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45967
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Since electrospark phenomena occurs at high flux, and at these fluxes
vacuum arcs form cathode and anode spots, locations of very high current
density, and since similar hot spots appear on electrospark electrodes, it
is reasonable to consider these spots to be similar in nature to vacuum arc
electrode spots, about which much is known. [1]  The extreme temperature of
electrode spots in an electrolyte, the clearly visible ejecta and
luminescent area at the spot surface, are signs that the interior of the
spots should be indistinguishable from those in a vacuum arc.  The purpose
here is to speculate on potential explanations for some poorly understood
aspects of electrode spot mechanics, and possible application of the
principles to the creation of useful devices.

The typical size for a cathode spot is about 0.1 micron.[1]  There is much
not fully understood about cathode spots.  As of 1980, there were at least
17 major explanations for them. [2]  There is also the continuing
investigation of other emission anomalies under the the "Pseudospark"
classification.  [3]

Of special interest about cathode spots is that metallic vapor jets issue
from them with velocities of up to 1000 m/sec, with one atom of metal
removed per about every 10 electrons emitted. [4]  These spots can have
high currents, estimated at up to 10^8 A/cm^2, and it is thought that the
emission of high energy electrons is by thermal-field (T-F) emission as
described by Schottky [5] and that the less energetic electrons are emitted
by field emission (tunneling)  It is thought most of the emission is T-F
emission, but, as of 1980, there was no experimental proof of this. [6]

A calculation using Childs space charge equation shows a vacuum arc 1 cm
long varying a current density of 100 A/cm^2 would require about 100 KV
voltage, and that if 99 percent of the electron space charge were balanced
by a distribution of positive charge, then 4800 V would be required. [7]
Actually only 28 V is required, indicating the space charge is neutralized
to within a few parts per million, and that this neutralization occurs at
the cathode spot. "Flows of ions away from cathode spots toward the anode
(against the main electric field of discharge) have been detected by both
optical and mass spectrographic data." [7]

Lafferty and Dillon state: "Honig [8] and Franzen and Schuy [9] found large
amounts of multiply charged ions as well as singly charged ions.  Plyutto
et al. [10] showed in addition that the average ion energies correspond to
voltages exceeding the total arc voltage, thus the average ion has
sufficient energy to move anywhere within the discharge.  Davis and Miller
[11] confirmed, extended, and made more precise those earlier measurements:
they showed that the energies of the neutral atoms emanating from the arc
are much less than those of the ions, and apparently are confined to
thermal energies, except for a few forming a high energy tail of the
distribution. In copper arcs the energy gap (measured at anode potential)
between the average singly charged ion and the average neutral exceeds 30
eV.  There is very little overlap between neutral atom and ion energy
distribution." [12]

Arc voltage characteristics are poorly understood, and no published theory
explains the positive resistance characteristic or tells why the arc
voltage for molybdenum is higher than for copper. [13] It appears to me to
be especially true the voltages are poorly understood at arc extinguishing
currents because of the extreme fluctuations, fluctuations many times arc
voltage and at frequencies of 1 - 15 MHz, despite the addition of up to
2500 uH inductors in the circuit. [14]  If such voltage fluctuations were
the result of circuit parameters the addition of inductance would have
changed the transient frequencies.

The combination of all these factors leads me to hypothesize that pair
formation may be going on in conductors at thermal levels.  Due to thermal
collisions, such pairs would have a very short half-life, and thus would
not permit formation of any macro level coherence like that exhibited in
superconductors.  However, if such pair formation were frequent enough, it
could account for some part of the above phenomena.

If there is pair availability in the cathode, then neutral atoms, boiled
off the interior surface of the cathode spot hole, could be seeds for
formation of doubly negative charged condensate formation, e.g. a Cu--
condensate formation.  It is even possible that the pair formation and
tunneling to a co-centered location with the seed atom occurs at the same
instant. The essential conditions would only be that the electrons have
equal but opposite momentum, within the binding energy for a pair, and be
equidistant from the seed. There would only be the possibility of tunneling
to nearly exact co-centering on the seed.  However, this co-centered
configuration, even though having a high potential energy due to the
tunneling of the electrons through their coulomb barrier, represents a
lowest energy configuration for the electrons, thus the high probability
even though the volume involved is small.

The formation of double negative ions provides a couple explanations.  One,
it explains how the metal ions are accelerated out of the hole.  Another is
that, when the ion reaches the boundary of the hole, it meets the full
electrostatic field gradient of the plasma ball in front of the electrode.
Acceleration here would destroy the condensate and a high energy explosion
due to the mutual repulsion of the condensate electron pair would result.
The energy of that explosion would quickly be dissipated in the plasma ball
by collision.  However, it has been experimentally observed that the plasma
ball contains ions well above the total potential drop across the vacuum
arc. [15]  Lastly, it explains why the energetic group of metal atoms are
positively charged positive ions, or even multiply charged positive ions,
and yet going the wrong direction.  That is because the energy of the
electron repulsion at the moment of condensate breakdown is sufficient to
knock one or two extra electrons off the metal atom, thus leaving it as a
positive ion with higher momentum than the thermal neutrals.  Perhaps these
mechanisms can explain the very presence of the high energy plasma ball on
the cathode.

The oscillations at near extinguishing voltages and currents could possibly
be explained by the fact that when current is down the ion density is down
and the electrons from the exploding condensates preserve their high
kinetic energy longer.  In fact, as current approaches zero, the mean free
path can exceed the arc gap width.  As heat in the spot drops a larger
percentage of the current must be due to tunneling.  This means a greater
concentration of the explosive condensates should be formed, and upon
reaching the surface of the spot hole their explosion could produce a
strong negative pulse which  (1) momentarily suppresses the potential in
the spot hole, and (2) generates heating on the surface of the hole.  These
effects serve to reduce the current while shifting the mode more back to
the lower voltage T-H type arc.  Operating in that normal low voltage mode,
however, the hole quickly cools and potential drops, repeating the cycle.

There are various devices which seem to gain energy from arc and abnormal
glow current oscillations.  If the hypothesis is true then perhaps the
excess energy is coming from condensate explosion.  These condensates are
the result of concurrent tunneling of one or more electron pairs to a
neutral atom or ion in the cathode vicinity, especially in cathode spot
plasma.  Since electrons tunnel in pairs across Josephson junctions as
often as they tunnel singly, it is reasonable to expect a high pair
tunneling rate even in a non-superconductor, although the number of
candidate pairs in the medium may be extremely small.  Due to the value of
the present hypothesis in explaining otherwise seemingly impossible
phenomena, it may be that candidate pairs in hot conductors have a larger
population than might be expected.

A method of producing pair tunneling which is an alternative to electrode
spot production may be to create and utilize a thin dielectric layer that
assures that all electron current is tunneling current.  It is of special
interest that Al, for example, is coated with Al2O3, which is a very strong
insulator, yet aluminum conducts very well through this very thin oxide
boundary.  By "conditioning" electrodes through operation at a high
voltage, dielectric layers can sometime be created which do not conduct
well below the operating voltage.  This fact may permit creation of an
electrode well suited for pair conduction at a desired energy level.

Lastly, electron pair tunneling may help explain low energy nuclear
reactions, and the positive relationship of flux to the frequency of such
reactions.  Electrons tunneled to a condensate proton or deuteron can not
be expected to have tunneled instantaneously into a stable waveform, thus
may momentarily exhibit more of a particulate character than wave
character.  This production of a small negatively charged nucleus-electron
condensate may then permit close nuclear approach and the electron
catalysis of fusion.  The rate of such catalysis would be a function of the
electron pair flux, not the pair energy.  The pair formation rate, however,
is at least in part a function of voltage.

The tunneled electron pair would not be bound sufficiently to the nucleus
to permit the condensate to make a very close approach to another nucleus
without breaking the bond.  However, once the bond is broken, the
abnormally close electron pair may repel at such a large initial energy,
that the deBroglie wavelength will remain small enough to perform the
catalysis.

The existence of electron pairs in hot conductors is very speculative.
However, this one speculation gives explanation to various otherwise
unexplained phenomena, and suggests a wide variety of related regimes for
experimental exploration.

Though far more speculative, similar pair tunneling of nucleii could also
occur.  The primary diffence would be that the large nuclear mass greatly
reduces the expected tunneling distance.  Since conduction in elctrolytes
is almost exclusively due to proton tunneling anyway, such an evironment
may make the ideal place for nuclear pair condensation to occur.


FOOTNOTES:

1. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980

2. Ibid, p.5

3. www material sent to you earlier

4. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.9

5. W. Schottkey, "Ann. Phys." (Leipzig), 44, 1011(1914)

6. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.122

7. Ibid. p.123

8. R. E. Honig, "Proceedings of the Twelfth Annual Conference on
   Mass Spectroscopy". Montreal, June, 1964, p. 233

9. J. Franzen and K. D. Schuy, "Z. Naturforsch," 20a, 176(1965)

10. A. A. Plyutto, V. N. Ryzhkov, and A. T. Kapin, "Sov. Phys - J Exp.
    Theor. Phys.," 20, 328(1965)

11. W. D. Davis and H. C. Miller, J. Appl. Phys. 40, 22212(1969)

12. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.126

13. Ibid, p.153

14. Ibid, p.154

15. Ibid, p.302

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  3 17:31:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20983;
	Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:26:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:26:20 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b8837e4e686d [12.21.209.215]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:29:04 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: The importance of electron flux in cold fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"BJKVj.0.n75.yCUNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45966
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:29 PM 2/3/2, jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote:

>The "exploding wire" phenomena of twenty years ago never went anywhere
>in terms of an energy device - but it is clear that copious neutrons
>were obtained in very simple circumstances by charging up hv caps and
>blasting wires that were impregnated with deuterium. I wonder if the
>electron flux in those experiments was in Kamada's range.


Oh, yes, I forgot to mention the current density for exploding wires is
well over a million times that of emission.  In my case, discharges of over
10,000 amps were put through #40 copper wire, 3.145 thousandths of an inch
diameter, 0.007988 cm,  which is about the thickness of a human hair.  The
flux was 200 megamps/cm^2.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 01:08:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA25826;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:05:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:05:32 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a0510030eb882612c54d7 [4.46.76.72]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b8815da1c55b [12.21.208.110]>
References: <v01530500b8815da1c55b [12.21.208.110]>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 03:03:40 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"-Y_lG2.0.OJ6.SxaNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45968
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>maintain H concentration.  I simply did not pin down the cause and nature
>of the glow.  My focus at the time was on the calorimetry.

Couldn't pin down the cause of the glow? what about the voltage? 
OTOH, have you read the reports of the blue glow that results from 
induced cavitation? I wonder what happened to the cavitation college 
man?

>
>I should mention that I had some collaborators in the work that was done,
>but I don't mention names in order to protect the reputations of the
>innocent.  8^)

What's the bottom line on the calorimetry?

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 01:37:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA04588;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:35:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:35:12 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100303b883b5bc79b4 [4.46.76.72]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b8837e4e686d [12.21.209.215]>
References: <v01530500b8837e4e686d [12.21.209.215]>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 03:33:32 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The importance of electron flux in cold fusion
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"vjfDx3.0.c71.FNbNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45969
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
>
>Oh, yes, I forgot to mention the current density for exploding wires is
>well over a million times that of emission.  In my case, discharges of over
>10,000 amps were put through #40 copper wire, 3.145 thousandths of an inch
>diameter, 0.007988 cm,  which is about the thickness of a human hair.  The
>flux was 200 megamps/cm^2.
>
>Regards,
>
Horace Heffner

Hum, I take it that this was a Cu wire? and you didn't load it with 
deuterium? I noted with interest someone's post about generating a 
neutron flux following this event. I wonder what would happen if I 
were to saturate a Ni wire with deuterium and then discharge a 
capacitor through it. Exploding wires are SO much fun, and if I had a 
Geiger counter, what a great science demonstration! Have any of you 
tried running electricity 125V 60 Cycle through a graphite pencil? I 
should try that again and analyze the results with a magnet.  It just 
occurred to me that if you have a big enough transformer feeding the 
supply, it can supply a great deal of electricity.

>


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 01:42:19 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA07810;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:41:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:41:45 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88408055bdf [12.21.208.198]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:44:31 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Resent-Message-ID: <"4FgAt3.0.uv1.PTbNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45970
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 3:03 AM 2/4/2, thomas malloy wrote:

>Couldn't pin down the cause of the glow? what about the voltage?

??


>What's the bottom line on the calorimetry?
>

What does this question mean?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 08:20:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28493;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:17:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:17:13 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.1.20020204155526.00aacf00 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:03:06 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re:Getting off topic: placebos
In-Reply-To: <200202012353.PAA02890 mx1.eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"481FT3.0.5z6.8GhNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45971
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

...Or one could say dying was the result of the patient "choosing to die", 
ie that it is in his power to heal himself as much as to surrender.  One 
does not need a God to work the faith healing, nor inflict the fatal 
blow.  "Choosing to die" would in this case usually be interpreted as 
"choosing to come back again in another life" (reincarnation).

Rupert Sheldrake, of "morphogenetic fields" and "morphic resonance", 
suggests that clinical trials, if not done "double blind", are virtually 
useless.  Parapsychologists can verify that the attitude of the technician 
in charge of the experiment has more effect on results than almost any 
other variable.

Stephen Lawrence.

8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel 01223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 09:15:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03268;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:07:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:07:54 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <66.1b779b61.299019bb aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:07:07 EST
Subject: I need nano powder
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"34BzP3.0.vo.f_hNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45972
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am looking for nano powder 50nm in size to experiment with.

Nanophase makes a suntan lotion that his nano powder in it.

Does anyone know what brand of lotion this is?

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 09:16:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04462;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:13:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:13:11 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <106.ca1a740.29901afd aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:12:29 EST
Subject: I need nano powder
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_106.ca1a740.29901afd_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"Pj7Rp2.0.d51.b4iNy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45973
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_106.ca1a740.29901afd_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I wrote to nanophase to obatin a sample of there powder.

So far I have recieved no responce.

 <A HREF="http://www.nanophase.com/">Welcome to Nanophase!</A> 

Frank Znidarsic

--part1_106.ca1a740.29901afd_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I wrote to nanophase to obatin a sample of there powder.<BR>
<BR>
So far I have recieved no responce.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.nanophase.com/">Welcome to Nanophase!</A> <BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part1_106.ca1a740.29901afd_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 09:34:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19456;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:31:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:31:45 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88475e54d77 [12.21.209.12]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:33:03 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Cathode Spots and Electron Pair Tunneling
Resent-Message-ID: <"IiDHp3.0.ql4.0MiNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45974
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Since electrospark phenomena occurs at high flux, and at these fluxes
vacuum arcs form cathode and anode spots, locations of very high current
density, and since similar hot spots appear on electrospark electrodes, it
is reasonable to consider these spots to be similar in nature to vacuum arc
electrode spots, about which much is known. [1]  The extreme temperature of
electrode spots in an electrolyte, the clearly visible ejecta and
luminescent area at the spot surface, are signs that the interior of the
spots should be indistinguishable from those in a vacuum arc.  The purpose
here is to speculate on potential explanations for some poorly understood
aspects of electrode spot mechanics, and possible application of the
principles to the creation of useful devices.

The typical size for a cathode spot is about 0.1 micron.[1]  There is much
not fully understood about cathode spots.  As of 1980, there were at least
17 major explanations for them. [2]  There is also the continuing
investigation of other emission anomalies under the the "Pseudospark"
classification.  [3]

Of special interest about cathode spots is that metallic vapor jets issue
from them with velocities of up to 1000 m/sec, with one atom of metal
removed per about every 10 electrons emitted. [4]  These spots can have
high currents, estimated at up to 10^8 A/cm^2, and it is thought that the
emission of high energy electrons is by thermal-field (T-F) emission as
described by Schottky [5] and that the less energetic electrons are emitted
by field emission (tunneling)  It is thought most of the emission is T-F
emission, but, as of 1980, there was no experimental proof of this. [6]

A calculation using Childs space charge equation shows a vacuum arc 1 cm
long varying a current density of 100 A/cm^2 would require about 100 KV
voltage, and that if 99 percent of the electron space charge were balanced
by a distribution of positive charge, then 4800 V would be required. [7]
Actually only 28 V is required, indicating the space charge is neutralized
to within a few parts per million, and that this neutralization occurs at
the cathode spot. "Flows of ions away from cathode spots toward the anode
(against the main electric field of discharge) have been detected by both
optical and mass spectrographic data." [7]

Lafferty and Dillon state: "Honig [8] and Franzen and Schuy [9] found large
amounts of multiply charged ions as well as singly charged ions.  Plyutto
et al. [10] showed in addition that the average ion energies correspond to
voltages exceeding the total arc voltage, thus the average ion has
sufficient energy to move anywhere within the discharge.  Davis and Miller
[11] confirmed, extended, and made more precise those earlier measurements:
they showed that the energies of the neutral atoms emanating from the arc
are much less than those of the ions, and apparently are confined to
thermal energies, except for a few forming a high energy tail of the
distribution. In copper arcs the energy gap (measured at anode potential)
between the average singly charged ion and the average neutral exceeds 30
eV.  There is very little overlap between neutral atom and ion energy
distribution." [12]

Arc voltage characteristics are poorly understood, and no published theory
explains the positive resistance characteristic or tells why the arc
voltage for molybdenum is higher than for copper. [13] It appears to me to
be especially true the voltages are poorly understood at arc extinguishing
currents because of the extreme fluctuations, fluctuations many times arc
voltage and at frequencies of 1 - 15 MHz, despite the addition of up to
2500 uH inductors in the circuit. [14]  If such voltage fluctuations were
the result of circuit parameters the addition of inductance would have
changed the transient frequencies.

The combination of all these factors leads me to hypothesize that pair
formation may be going on in conductors at thermal levels.  Due to thermal
collisions, such pairs would have a very short half-life, and thus would
not permit formation of any macro level coherence like that exhibited in
superconductors.  However, if such pair formation were frequent enough, it
could account for some part of the above phenomena.

If there is pair availability in the cathode, then neutral atoms, boiled
off the interior surface of the cathode spot hole, could be seeds for
formation of doubly negative charged condensate formation, e.g. a Cu--
condensate formation.  It is even possible that the pair formation and
tunneling to a co-centered location with the seed atom occurs at the same
instant. The essential conditions would only be that the electrons have
equal but opposite momentum, within the binding energy for a pair, and be
equidistant from the seed. There would only be the possibility of tunneling
to nearly exact co-centering on the seed.  However, this co-centered
configuration, even though having a high potential energy due to the
tunneling of the electrons through their coulomb barrier, represents a
lowest energy configuration for the electrons, thus the high probability
even though the volume involved is small.

The formation of double negative ions provides a couple explanations.  One,
it explains how the metal ions are accelerated out of the hole.  Another is
that, when the ion reaches the boundary of the hole, it meets the full
electrostatic field gradient of the plasma ball in front of the electrode.
Acceleration here would destroy the condensate and a high energy explosion
due to the mutual repulsion of the condensate electron pair would result.
The energy of that explosion would quickly be dissipated in the plasma ball
by collision.  However, it has been experimentally observed that the plasma
ball contains ions well above the total potential drop across the vacuum
arc. [15]  Lastly, it explains why the energetic group of metal atoms are
positively charged positive ions, or even multiply charged positive ions,
and yet going the wrong direction.  That is because the energy of the
electron repulsion at the moment of condensate breakdown is sufficient to
knock one or two extra electrons off the metal atom, thus leaving it as a
positive ion with higher momentum than the thermal neutrals.  Perhaps these
mechanisms can explain the very presence of the high energy plasma ball on
the cathode.

The oscillations at near extinguishing voltages and currents could possibly
be explained by the fact that when current is down the ion density is down
and the electrons from the exploding condensates preserve their high
kinetic energy longer.  In fact, as current approaches zero, the mean free
path can exceed the arc gap width.  As heat in the spot drops a larger
percentage of the current must be due to tunneling.  This means a greater
concentration of the explosive condensates should be formed, and upon
reaching the surface of the spot hole their explosion could produce a
strong negative pulse which  (1) momentarily suppresses the potential in
the spot hole, and (2) generates heating on the surface of the hole.  These
effects serve to reduce the current while shifting the mode more back to
the lower voltage T-H type arc.  Operating in that normal low voltage mode,
however, the hole quickly cools and potential drops, repeating the cycle.

There are various devices which seem to gain energy from arc and abnormal
glow current oscillations.  If the hypothesis is true then perhaps the
excess energy is coming from condensate explosion.  These condensates are
the result of concurrent tunneling of one or more electron pairs to a
neutral atom or ion in the cathode vicinity, especially in cathode spot
plasma.  Since electrons tunnel in pairs across Josephson junctions as
often as they tunnel singly, it is reasonable to expect a high pair
tunneling rate even in a non-superconductor, although the number of
candidate pairs in the medium may be extremely small.  Due to the value of
the present hypothesis in explaining otherwise seemingly impossible
phenomena, it may be that candidate pairs in hot conductors have a larger
population than might be expected.

A method of producing pair tunneling which is an alternative to electrode
spot production may be to create and utilize a thin dielectric layer that
assures that all electron current is tunneling current.  It is of special
interest that Al, for example, is coated with Al2O3, which is a very strong
insulator, yet aluminum conducts very well through this very thin oxide
boundary.  By "conditioning" electrodes through operation at a high
voltage, dielectric layers can sometime be created which do not conduct
well below the operating voltage.  This fact may permit creation of an
electrode well suited for pair conduction at a desired energy level.

Lastly, electron pair tunneling may help explain low energy nuclear
reactions, and the positive relationship of flux to the frequency of such
reactions.  Electrons tunneled to a condensate proton or deuteron can not
be expected to have tunneled instantaneously into a stable waveform, thus
may momentarily exhibit more of a particulate character than wave
character.  This production of a small negatively charged nucleus-electron
condensate may then permit close nuclear approach and the electron
catalysis of fusion.  The rate of such catalysis would be a function of the
electron pair flux, not the pair energy.  The pair formation rate, however,
is at least in part a function of voltage.

The tunneled electron pair would not be bound sufficiently to the nucleus
to permit the condensate to make a very close approach to another nucleus
without breaking the bond.  However, once the bond is broken, the
abnormally close electron pair may repel at such a large initial energy,
that the deBroglie wavelength will remain small enough to perform the
catalysis.

The existence of electron pairs in hot conductors is very speculative.
However, this one speculation gives explanation to various otherwise
unexplained phenomena, and suggests a wide variety of related regimes for
experimental exploration.

Though far more speculative, similar pair tunneling of nucleii could also
occur.  The primary diffence would be that the large nuclear mass greatly
reduces the expected tunneling distance.  Since conduction in elctrolytes
is almost exclusively due to proton tunneling anyway, such an evironment
may make the ideal place for nuclear pair condensation to occur.


FOOTNOTES:

1. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980

2. Ibid, p.5

3. www material sent to you earlier

4. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.9

5. W. Schottkey, "Ann. Phys." (Leipzig), 44, 1011(1914)

6. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.122

7. Ibid. p.123

8. R. E. Honig, "Proceedings of the Twelfth Annual Conference on
   Mass Spectroscopy". Montreal, June, 1964, p. 233

9. J. Franzen and K. D. Schuy, "Z. Naturforsch," 20a, 176(1965)

10. A. A. Plyutto, V. N. Ryzhkov, and A. T. Kapin, "Sov. Phys - J Exp.
    Theor. Phys.," 20, 328(1965)

11. W. D. Davis and H. C. Miller, J. Appl. Phys. 40, 22212(1969)

12. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.126

13. Ibid, p.153

14. Ibid, p.154

15. Ibid, p.302

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 10:46:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00835;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:42:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:42:51 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <13c.8d1983a.29903002 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:42:10 EST
Subject: Super Plasma Reformer Video
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124
Resent-Message-ID: <"7xWlp1.0.wC.gOjNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45975
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have just added a video clip of the latest and most powerful Pulsed Plasma 
prototype. A 3/16 jet of water is injected directly into and around the 
plasma. 

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html">
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html</A>  (link near top of page)

A special note to Alan S., this is what you would have seen if you had 
bothered to show up for your private demonstration. Water (or anything else) 
will reform when injected into this plasma. Organic hazardous material such 
as AIDS infected materials, including the heretofore "indestructible" prions 
from CJD (mad cow) will vaporize in this system. Exclusive Medical use 
licenses will be available by category.

Should you Now, still not understand the most simple & minor merits of this 
device - I must say, just forget about it completely.

Lastly, if you think it looks familiar - think again.

Regards,
Chris Arnold   
No personal emails please, only serious license inquiries.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 13:28:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07174;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:23:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:23:36 -0800
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:31:33 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Hypercom59 aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Super Plasma Reformer Video
In-Reply-To: <13c.8d1983a.29903002 aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020204162443.21210G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"1MJO92.0.0m1.NllNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45976
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Folks,

	The use of plasma to effect chemical changes is well known and has
generated papers since prior to the 1950 GE glow discharge work in
chemical reactions caused by electric plasma.  That is 50 years.
	Earlier work predates 1895 and the breakdown of simple and complex
reagents, including acids.

	Q: Is  most powerful Pulsed Plasma exceed 20 KW?  20 WK are
average plain "Jane" plasma scrubbers used in the semiconductor industry.


	 Q:  Where do we have information that
teaches prions are "indestructible"?


	Q:	What do you mean when you say "reform" ?

				Please.
	

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

> I have just added a video clip of the latest and most powerful Pulsed Plasma 
> prototype. A 3/16 jet of water is injected directly into and around the 
> plasma. 
> 
> <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html">
> http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html</A>  (link near top of page)
> 
> A special note to Alan S., this is what you would have seen if you had 
> bothered to show up for your private demonstration. Water (or anything else) 
> will reform when injected into this plasma. Organic hazardous material such 
> as AIDS infected materials, including the heretofore "indestructible" prions 
> from CJD (mad cow) will vaporize in this system. Exclusive Medical use 
> licenses will be available by category.
> 
> Should you Now, still not understand the most simple & minor merits of this 
> device - I must say, just forget about it completely.
> 
> Lastly, if you think it looks familiar - think again.
> 
> Regards,
> Chris Arnold   
> No personal emails please, only serious license inquiries.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 13:51:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26622;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:51:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:51:14 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b884b0eb2bb2 [12.21.208.7]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:53:52 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
Resent-Message-ID: <"jpWbH2.0.oV6.I9mNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45978
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

For the sake of prodding the imagination, I enjoy posting this little essay
on vortex periodically.


                 Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)

The underwater spark phenomenon (USP) and other similar electrochemical
reactions which have been and are under investigation on vortex and
elsewhere represent a new medium or tool with which to explore for a new
source of energy, i.e. an "over unity", "ou", or "excess heat" device.  The
USP device does share or can be designed to share within it many
characteristics or physical environments similar to previously reported ou
phenomena.  It is rich in degrees of freedom, operating ranges, and design
flexibility.

The question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a robust ou
solution will be found by investigating USP, or any other regimes?  I say
the answer is clearly yes.  Aside from all the relatively small heat
results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson, Piantelli, Griggs,
Case, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the natural
phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out foremost in my
mind as justification for that position.  There is police and other witness
testimony, taken under oath, and other evidence, including still living
victims, coroners reports, and photographic evidence.  If the  SHC
phenomenon is real, and I think from the evidence there is a reasonable
probability it is, then there exists a truly robust, water environment,
heat generation phenomenon driving it.

I think nature showed the way to the Wright Brothers.   The evidence, and
the clues for design, were right in front of their faces, in the form of
birds.  SHC does not have such abundant evidence, but if it ever happened
even only once, it is chock full of clues.  Granted, the odds of
replicating the
unknown conditions appears dismayingly small.  However, if SHC exists, then
it is probably not the most robust form of the power generation either.
Nature put together, at random, a nuclear reactor in France long before
humans had a clue as to what an atom was.  Based on SHC frequency, the
solution space may be larger that it appears.  The main objective presently
need merely be to find a readily reproduced ou behavior in any provable
amount.  It seems to me self evident that there is reasonable hope for
that, if SHC exists.

Some have suggested that SHC is due to wicking.  This cannot account for
all cases of SHC because one victim showed on TV scars on his back where
SHC had started and remained under the skin, away from ambient oxygen.

The fat of the body burns like a candle, wicked by clothing or carpet, etc.
If wicking is a valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then
an experiment should produce similar results using a large ham with bone
and skin.  Here is an experiment protocol:

1.  Place ham on a roughly 1' by 1' patch of carpet
2.  Wrap ham with piece of cloth, e.g. an old shirt
3.  Insert birthday cake candle in side of ham through hole in cloth
4.  Place all in location safe for fire and smoke, but not in wind
5.  Light candle

The carpet is overkill, because SHC has been observed in a bathroom
environment (it burned a hole through a linoleum floor) and deep under skin
where no wick was present.  However, this approach seems to give SHC (now
spontaneous HAM combustion) the best chance.

If the result is not that bone is reduced to a powder or not that a sweet
burning sugar smell results, then the results are negative.

Combusting a human body into white ash, including the bones, with only the
body as fuel, and in the presence of 60 percent water, involves a source of
heat outside the scope of present knowledge.  Let's assume for the moment
that some SHC reports are genuine, and see what can be determined from that
assumption.  The ou methods of P&F, etc., will be foremost in our minds
while pursuingfree energy, so we need not have much concern about adapting
those approaches.  Further, through the normal course of events, nature
herself will reveal a few things and even more mysteries to unravel.
Considering SHC is to venture beyond these more obvious approaches to
experimental program design, and to venture into a more grey realm less
likely to be reached without straying off the beaten path.

Now the question arises, what is a good strategy for a broad Edisonian
search of USP?  In some situations, a good strategy is to throw together as
many elements as possible into a single test.  This strategy has been
employed to some extent in aids testing, for example.  If you mix the blood
for 6 samples together, and then get a negative test for the antibodies,
all 6 samples are known to be negative, saving the cost of 5 tests.
However, when a positive is obtained, at least 5 more tests must be made,
and, unless they are all negative, incurring the cost of an extra test to
verify. It is of course possible to do 3 and 3 then, etc.  The least
expensive testing strategy depends on the expected positive hit rate.

Unfortunately we don't have a situation that simple. It may take a
combination of factors together at the same moment to get a positive hit.
It is also essential not to throw elements into a test that could force
other positive combinations of elements in the test to be quenched or
suppressed.  Unfortunate also is the fact we do not know what elements are
incompatible, i.e. which elements and concentrations might quench a SHC
type reaction.  However, we do know that the elements and concentrations in
the human body are not likely to do that, at least in the special
circumstances where it actually happened.  We also know it is possible for
clothing to cause sparks, thus it is reasonable to assume such a SHC
reaction may be caused by sparks or be electrically initiated.  Based on
some case histories, it is also possible the SHC reaction is intiated by
focused or prolonged sunlight, and may be partially due to dehydration.
So, light may possibly be a trigger.  Minimum element concentrations may be
an ignition factor.  More importantly, we know that at least at some edge
of the envelope of the human condition, the elements in the human body, in
natural proportions, are *sufficient* to cause the reaction, and that in
those cases nothing in the human body was *sufficient to quench* the
reaction until it reached the ends of the extremities, leaving only the
lower legs, feet, wrists and hands of the victims.

The main elements in the human body, 95 % by weight, are O, H, C, and N.
The remaining elements include Ca and P, another 3% of body weight, and, in
order of decreasing amounts, K, Na, Mg, Fe, Z, Cu, and traces of V, Cr, S,
and Se.

The fact that SHC usually leaves behind only the ends of the victims'
extremities is an indication that the process must be related in some
respect to a critical mass.  When fuel becomes too sparse, geometrically
speaking, the reaction suddenly stops.  One hypothesis that roughly fits
this scenario is muon catalyzed fusion.  If some cosmic event should cause
an intense and focused beam of muons to magically fall from the sky at a
particular square yard and hit someone, then maybe only the largest most
connected regions of the body could prevent escape of large numbers of
muons.  Or maybe sufficient heat retention is necessary to sustain the
reaction.  However, muon catalyzed fusion seems an unlikely explanation, if
only because the event would have to occur so fast the body would explode.
It is likely there are lots of other wild hypotheses containing
pre-conditions for SHC that are not reproducible by or relevent to the USP
environments.

We further know that most humans do not spontaneously combust, even when
subjected to extreme radiation, immense heat, flames, and light, and
extreme sparking conditions, including high voltage electrocution.  There
must be a very special set of circumstances that triggers the event.

One of the more interresting SHC cases involved a physician whose diet, for
long periods, consisted of nothing but shredded wheat and coffee.  (I
sometimes wonder if maybe he didn't have a bannanna with that shredded
wheat to get his potassium, at least on the fateful day he self-immolated.)
Maybe one approach to making an electrolyte for USP is to burn meat,
coffee and shredded wheat in a crucible, soak the ashes in water, and then
filter, or..., maybe not filter.  It sure would be advantageous to have a
chemical analysis of the SHC ashes vs normal human ashes.  One thing that
bothers me about all this is the fact you never hear about spontaneously
combusting cows!  If humans can do it why not cows, sheep, birds, fish,
worms, etc.?  Now not only must pigs fly, they must self barbecue!

One question of interest is whether a solid matrix of some kind is
necessary to initiate or sustain a reaction.  If so, the only such marix
readily apparent in the human body is the skeleton.  Possibly dried bone,
or bone meal, or a calcium matrix of some kind, would be of interest to
incorporate in a USP test.

It is especially notable that the human body does not naturally contain
solid metal.  We do have dental fixtures, mercury poisoning, aluminum
poisoning (darn those pickle makers that put alum in their pickles!), bone
plates, etc., but I don't recall hearing about those things being
significant.  Also, the living SHC victims did not have the SHC initiate in
their mouths, etc.  So, it seems safe to assume that a metal electrode is
not necessary.  If not solid metal, though, what?  A capacitive electrode
cell is an idea, but without internal metal, so then how and where to
generate the sparks?  One possibility is to employ a perforated barrier, so
as to obtain a very high current density at the perforations, and thus to
evolve steam arcs in the perforations.  Also there is the question of
whether metal might subdue a SHC type reaction. If not, then metal
electrodes are fine.  Perhaps some kind of an insulating membrane or very
thin sheet of material between two solutions might be a good regime.

One possibility to consider as a way for SHC to start is microwave or other
radiation.  Another possibility is direct induction.  None of these seem
like very likely initiators.  Well, except maybe for people located near
the end of a military runway...

In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for
sustaining the reaction in a water environment.  This does not seem
possible to me unless water itself is the fuel.  A nuclear reaction like
1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this.  Also, the reaction must
produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction.  Beyond that,
the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a bang,
which it is not.  SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like
buring sugar.  That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely
carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it
would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a
body and leaves a sweet smell must be very wierd.

The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of 64.5
s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be
clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04
percent natural abundance.

Well, I have done a fair job here of providing evidence as to why SHC can
not exist!  However, there is significant evidence it does.  If it does, it
offers clues to reaching the goal of free eenrgy, and provides specific
questions that need answers that can be determined experimentally.  Whether
SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for the idea mill.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 13:53:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24777;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:48:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:48:50 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <62.1a5f238d.29905b9a aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:48:10 EST
Subject: Re: Super Plasma Reformer Video
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124
Resent-Message-ID: <"8D8KR1.0.z26.17mNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45977
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 2/4/2002 3:23:58 PM Central Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:

< The use of plasma to effect chemical changes is well known and has
 generated papers since prior to the 1950 GE glow discharge work in
 chemical reactions caused by electric plasma.  That is 50 years.
    Earlier work predates 1895 and the breakdown of simple and complex
 reagents, including acids. 

At least that part is "FINALLY" settled. 

The device produces near unity mechanical power and ALL PLASMA interactions 
are FREE of CHARGE whereby zero additional power is consumed - producing 
"TOTAL" output energies that equal - "overunity."

That is all I have to say for now, unless an Oil or Pharmaceutical Co. shows 
interest privately.

Regards,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 17:44:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09488;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:38:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:38:53 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b884e641e71c [12.21.208.139]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:41:31 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Electron Catalysed Fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"RJg3l3.0.4K2.iUpNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45979
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

                    Electron Catalysed Fusion


Suppose you have three charges, two deutrium nucleii (+) and and electron
(-), all in a line in the x axis separated by (an initial) distance of
10^-11 m:


                d1                   d2
       (+)                (-)                 (+)

       v1->               v2->


What is the initial net force on each particle?  The force between the left
deuterium nucleus and the electron and is given by

   F1 = q^2/(4 Pi e0 r^2) = 8.98 N

and is to the right towards the electron. The force the two deuterium
nucleii is repulsive and is 1/4 the magnitude of the force between the
deuterium and the electron because the distance is doubled, i.e. d1 + d2 =
2 d1.  So the net force on the left deuteron is 3/4 * 8.98 N = 6.74 N and
is to the right.  Similarly, the net force on the right deuteron is 6.74 N
and is to the left.  The net force on the electron balances out to zero.

Further assume the electron has a sufficient velocity that its deBroglie
wavelength is unimportant, i.e. that it is a point charge for the sake of
this discussion.  Further the leftmost deuteron has a velocity v1 relative
to the rightmost deuteron and which is directed toward it, and the electron
has velocity:

   v2 = v1/2

What happens next?  What direction is the initial acceleration provided by
the net force on the rightmost deuteron?  What direction is the initial
acceleration provided by the net force on the leftmost deuteron?

If we look at the problem in the reference frame of the electron then the
outcome is straightforward.  The two deuterons are attracted to the
electron equally thus accelerate toward it at the same velocity at every
instant.  The force is maintained until the wavelengths of the particles
overlap and the force diminishes.

In the scenario I suggested earlier, the two atoms were maintained at a
constant distance by the presence of the electon waveforms already present.
The potential of the bond between these electrons and the nucleii is
small, less than 30 eV.  The impinging 3 keV electron simply blows them
TOWARD the deuteron pair, thus INCREASING the NET CHARGE between the two
deuterons, and thereby even further increasing the attraction between the
two deuterons.

A hydrogen atom in D2 has a radius of about 0.32 A, so for this reason it
is anticipated the impinging electron's de Broglie wavelength must be less
than .32 A.  At a larger wavelength, i.e. less energy, dipole moment
shielding would occur, preventing a close approach to the nucleus by the
electron.  At .32 A, and in absence of a magnetic field, the hypothesized
effects would begin to be noticed, but a smaller wavelength, e.g. half that
size, should produce more significant effects.

Now: p=h/L, where p=mv so: mv=h/L, v*(9.11E-31kg)=(6.626E-34 joule*sec)/
(0.32E-10 m), v=2.273E7m/sec.  Looking at energy, E= .5mv^2=
(.5)(9.11E-31kg)(2.27E7)^2, E=2.353E-16joule/ (1.602 E-19 joule/eV)=1470
eV.  So a minimal energy electron to initiate the process should be about
1470 eV, quite a bit to get inside a lattice!  This can not be accomplished
by temperature alone because 1eV=1.15E4 deg K, so the temperature would be
1470*1.16E4=17,000,000 deg K.  Further, making the suggested  process
likely requires limiting the degrees of freedom.  It is only likely to
happen in a lattice where the nucleii are all aligned neatly in a row and
the impinging electrons are alread channelled or directed by the aligment
of the lattice face holes.  It is not as likely to happen in a plasma.
Alsom due to the comaparatively large wavelength of the electron, the
process can not proceed to completion, i.e. to a completely fused nuclear
pair, but it can proceed to bring the nuclei to sufficiently less than
10^-11 m to permit tunneling.  The electron's initial wavelength is reduced
as it approaches the first deuteron, due to falling into its Coulomb well.


One interesting thing about this mechanism is that an electron might end up
in new nucleus at a low energy yet not bound into the nucleus by a weak
reaction.  Perhaps this sets up a radiation process, due to the electron's
radiation, whereby the bond kinetic energy of the excited nucleus is
transferred to the lattice over a (relatively) long time by low energy
radiation.  Ultimately, however, the electron should be involved in a weak
force reaction.  Since the electron did not gain substantial kinetic energy
in the suggested fusion process, perhaps the characteristic electron
capture gamma is not seen.

If the electron sheilded deuteron reaction occurs, it may be of the form:

    D+ + D+ + e-  ->  4He++ + e-*

or

    D+ + D+ + e-  ->  T+ + H+* + e-*

or maybe

    D+ + D+ + e-  ->  4H+  ->  3H+ + n

Most of the kinetic energy of the reaction may go temporarily to the
electron e-*, which requires about 1 MeV to escape the Coulomb well, and
which may dump excess energy into the lattice before escaping the Coulomb
well or forming a neutron?

"Electron catlysed fusion" may be a good term for the process outlined
above.  The process is different from electron shielding and muon catalysed
fusion to the extent that a medium energy electron is required, having
energy an order of magnitude above chemical bond energes.

Tunneling is necessary to account for the hot fusion rate at a given
temperature.  It also accounts for the operation of the Josephson Junction
and the tunnel diode.  Regardless of the "true" nature or explanation for
the effect, it exists and is strongly tied to the fusion process.  The
coulomb barrier can be jumped, and the distance (d1 + d2 above) at which it
is likely to be jumped is comparatively large, i.e. it is a separation that
can be provided a mere ~20 keV initial deturon energy.  The question of how
CF overcomes the Coulomb barrier might be answered by the illustrated
process, or by lower energy electron screening, as proposed early on by
Peter Hagelstein and others, I believe.

One of the significant problems of maintaining a screen at low energies is
the fact that an electron is not a point charge, but is wave-like.  I am
suggesting that high energies reduce the electron wavelength and at some
electron energy, i.e. at around 2-3 keV, the suggested electron catalysis
shielding effect comes into play.  Pre-alignment of the deuterons all in a
row in the lattice may assist in greatly raising the probability of the
effect from a single electron, and even help align the electron velocity
with the lattice, and even help start a kind of e-fusion-e-fusion chain
reaction.  There is a source of seed electrons in the form of secondary
electrons from cosmic rays.

It is of further interest that electron catalysed fusion is more likely to
occur in a high electron flux high energy environemt, than a low flux
environment, due to the increased incidence of, a high replacement rate of,
the small waveform electrons between nuclei.  This fact may account for
various regimes (e.g Kamada et al experiments) where fusion rates are a
function of flux, in addition to energy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 18:03:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA27964;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:02:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:02:47 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b884e9fec7e1 [12.21.209.180]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:05:31 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Heisenberg trapping of electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"MFPRw2.0.aq6.6rpNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45980
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Here is a probably bogus wild eyed amateur model for energy creation in CF
devices, a technique for attempting to accumulate ZPE.  The idea is maybe
bogus, but also fun.  This idea is based on trapping free electrons in a
confined space in the Pd (or other metal) lattice.  Uncertainty of momentum
for a particle (electron) constrained by distance delta x is given by:

   delta mv = h/(2 Pi delta x)

but since

   KE = 1/2 m v^2 = 1/(2 m) {delta mv)^2

   delta KE = 1/(2 m) (h/(2 Pi delta x))^2

   delta KE = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 m)    (delta x)^2

the more you can confine the POSITION of an electron the more energy you
can get out of it.  If an electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom volume
there is an uncertainty of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the momentum and thus
6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV uncertainty on energy.

This could be an explanation for "heat after death" and the Case
experiment, as well as other excess heat.  One sufficient condition for
heat creation in Pd type CF experiments is filling of (and therefore
eliminating) the Pd conduction bands - in addition to basic loading.  Of
course this has to happen without cracking the lattice, which is apparently
the difficult part.

Once loading reaches the point where the conduction bands become filled,
the electrons trapped along with their paired hydrogen nucleii lose all
degrees of freedom and are thus trapped by the confines of the interstitial
site in which the paired nucleus is trapped.  The electron location is thus
known and fixed, and there must be a correponding range increase on the
trapped electron's momentum.  This increase in momentum is not temporary -
it is permanent for the duration of confinement.  This means that, as the
lattice bleeds off energy from the electron via brownian like collisions,
the energy gets replaced from the ZPE sea.  The suggested result is
continual and permanent energy output with no input!

A key to free energy is thus permanently trapping electrons in small
volumes.  This may or may not require trapping them with associated
hydrogen nucleii, as is done in CF cells, but it is clear that having net
charge neutral in the lattice is a great advantage.

The key to building successful CF electrodes is likely in engineering
lattice material in which the conduction bands exist in only one or two
axes, thus are easily filled and blocked.  The object is to load the
lattice with protons in spaces too confined to form atoms, and then shut
off all the conduction paths so as to fix the location of and thereby trap
free electrons associated with trapped (but unbound) nucleii.

One possibility for doing this might be to use a semiconducting material
used for making FET's.  If protons (not in the form of atoms) can be
injected or built into the lattice, the associated electrons can be frozen
in place by imposition of an electrostatic field gradient that removes
conductivity from the lattice.  There are the problems of keeping the
interstititial spaces intact and small enough and strong enough to prevent
hydrogen atom formation.  Perhaps a similar strategy can be implemented
using powerful magnetic fields - imposed on proton doped semiconductor
lattices to eliminate semiconductivity.  The key is still confining
electrons within conduciton bands.

Energy generating solids might be built using epitaxy, crystal growing
techniques, electrodeposition, or other means.  All that is required is the
trapping of free electrons in tightly confined spaces in the lattice.
Knowing the objective should make the materials science much easier.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 18:28:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03261;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:17:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:17:15 -0800
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:10:25 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: SHC on Discovey Channel
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <009c01c1adea$48c1d6a0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530502b884b0eb2bb2 [12.21.208.7]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"B98Gr.0.to.h2qNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45981
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Coincidental to Horace's recent post, a documentary on Spontaneous Human
Combustion (SHC) was featured on the Discovery Channel just now.

They didn't mention CF or OU, unfortunately, but it was a fairly balanced
presentation.

I'll have to admit to being somewhat of a skeptic, prior to seeing this
documentary.

Besides the OU angle, there are some other interesting tie-ins: kundalini
energy, and phosphanes from incomplete digestion. One of the interviewees. Larry
E Arnold, appeared to be far more thoughtful than the critics of SHC, who were
somewhat lame (so what if many of the victims were smokers and/or boozers - that
is most likely a peripheral issue). Arnold has written a book, see:
http://www.geocities.com/shashaeby/ablaze.html
also see:
http://www.kengoldstein.net/Etc/combustion.html

Arnold has a proprietary interest in the subject but his work adds a degree of
respectability and insight that I was not aware of before.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 18:40:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAB15491;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:35:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:35:42 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b884f45b372a [12.21.209.180]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:38:27 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Hard Anodized Aluminum
Resent-Message-ID: <"1Zu2w2.0.on3.-JqNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45982
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A handy recipe once posted on vortex by Fred Sparber: "Aluminum strips can
be hard anodized instantly by applying a few hundred volts to an aluminum
strip 6061 T6 (the + electrode) and slowly dipping it into an aqueous H2SO4
electrolyte in a metal can (the - electrode). The hard anodized film can
withstand several thousand volts."

I often use Li2SO4.  I wonder if it produces a similar coating?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  4 21:07:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA06341;
	Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:04:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:04:30 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified)
Message-Id: <a05100306b8850a046fa6 [4.46.76.125]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b88408055bdf [12.21.208.198]>
References: <v01530500b88408055bdf [12.21.208.198]>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:02:49 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"WN_2v1.0._Y1.TVsNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45983
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>At 3:03 AM 2/4/2, thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>Couldn't pin down the cause of the glow? what about the voltage?
>
>??
>
>
>>What's the bottom line on the calorimetry?
>  >

I assume that you are testing energy in verses energy out. what happened?

>What does this question mean?
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 05:36:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08256;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:32:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:32:06 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b88583daee12 [12.21.209.180]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 04:34:53 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Resent-Message-ID: <"JeUWl1.0.r02.MxzNy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45984
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:02 PM 2/4/2, thomas malloy wrote:

>I assume that you are testing energy in verses energy out. what happened?

I take it you haven't read much of what I posted.  I'll try to briefly
summarise.  The work I did was over 4 years ago.  I am not doing the work
currently.  I used a variety of electrolytes, electrodes, and current
conditions.  I obtained widely varying results, both in the calorimetry and
in the cell operating characteristics.  The calorimetry varied from COP of
1 to 1.6.  However, my point has been that calorimetry is not easy, and the
calorimetry I did, despite considerable effort and expense, I feel was
woefully inadequate for proving the existence of heat beyond chemistry.
Unless the loop can be closed, proof of free energy requires rigorous
experimentation.  There is no substitute.  I suggested some things that I
did and some I didn't do that can improve calorimetry, and which in my
experience were critical or very important.  Among them are:

1.  Filter the power following measurement and prior to the cell,
    and in both leads
2.  Don't deplete the electrolyte too far or else the decline curve
    will be wrong (else provide a hot distilled water replenishment system)
    and thus the calorimeter constant will be wrong
3.  Account for the enthalpy of electrode oxidation
4.  Account for the caloric content of evolved gasses
5.  Keep in mind that the evolved gas may consist mostly of hydrogen
6.  Use multiple means of confirming heat out and power in, estimate error bars
7.  Precondition electrodes so as to obtain a uniform run
8.  Preheat the electrolyte to 100 C so as to obtain a uniform run
9.  Stir the electrolyte during live run and during cooling curve run
10. Design the experiment so as to obtain a long run time.

I then made lots of suggestions as to where to look for free energy and
also the suggestion that it is extremely important to examine the
thermodynamics of individual cell components.  I suggested that there are
various effects that may be involved, including the blue anode glow that I
observed at high voltages, 350 to 700 V, but only in select conditions, and
the importance of not only voltage but also flux to the results.  I
stressed the importance of the electrode surface film to the results
obtained, and to the overall cell operating characteristics.  I pointed out
the possible relevance of vacuum arc and pseudospark physics to the
electrospark regime.

I think the bottom line regarding calorimetry is that no solicitation
should be made, and no investor should be conned into investing money into
ou devices, with the expectation the money will be used for
commercialization, as opposed to very risky pure research, unless highly
professional and independently confirmed tests already exist, as well as a
proven sufficient life cycle cost/benfit.

As for the prospects of the existence of "free energy", my experience tells
me that the prospects are very good long term, but once the free energy is
obtained, we will simply have found a name for the source or sources.  We
are immersed in a sea of energy but barely have a drop to drink.  We have
only made a feeble beginning in the effort to obtain free energy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 08:22:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05442;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:17:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:17:56 -0800
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:11:06 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Exploding wire fusion still being pursued
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <003f01c1ae5f$b8e31320$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"nX0gH3.0.yK1.qM0Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45985
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>From a recent APS conference, it appears that exploding wire fusion is alive and
well. This is a subset of "hot" fusion, but unlike fusion  using $mmm
tokamaks, it can be carried out in a garage (and probably as efficiently as at
JET!) - but unfortunately like all of hot fusion is far from breakeven. Is there
any possibility that there  exists a "crossover" regime somewhere between cold
fusion techniques and exploding wires?

Exploding wire experiments using deuterated fibers with  neutron yields over
10^13 per shot are still being carried out in Russia and the US. Ratachin and
Baksht (High Current Electronics Institute, Tomsk, RUSSIA) are claiming to be
able to form a high density plasma column of D ions at near fusion temperature
using an imploded deuterium fiber array. This particular  approach could be used
as a gun-like feeder for a Z-pinch, colliding beam but most interestingly, there
is an additional advantage that one might find in designing a bootstrap reactor
with a "convergence zone" feature, such as that found in the Fusor.

But the bottom line is that even though it is rather easy to get neutrons from
techniques like these, the power requirements are so high that the system is
usually pushed far from breakeven.

One wonders if, over the course of the last several decades, any curious
researcher along the way has taken the time to:

1) Fully load a Pd wire with D at the 1:1 molar ratio that appears to be
important in CF

2) Tried to implode such a wire at lower voltage, lower current than typical
exploding wire regimes. There is likely to be minimum voltage for implosion, is
it as low as 2000?

3) Tried to use Pd wires that were alloyed with certain elements that have
been implicated with either CF, (such as Li or B) or the hydrino, (such as Sr or
Rb)

Neutron yields over 10^13 per shot may sound like a lot, but are mild in terms
of actual energy content, especially if some fraction are "stripped" rather than
the 2.45 MeV neutrons of D fusion. However, if this level could be
reached by finding a resonance or a regime using less voltage and current then
it would be interesting.

Jones





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 11:20:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11940;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:17:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:17:32 -0800
Message-ID: <3C602F84.DB08C1C7 bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:16:20 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
References: <v01530502b884b0eb2bb2 [12.21.208.7]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mp97D3.0.Sw2.C_2Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45986
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

> However, if SHC exists, then
> it is probably not the most robust form of the power generation either.
> Nature put together, at random, a nuclear reactor in France long before
> humans had a clue as to what an atom was.  


Hugh, er, Horace,

You sure this natural reactor wasn't in Oklo, Gabon, Africa?  If
France, where in France?  Rennes-le-Chateau?  ;-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 12:03:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10847;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:00:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:00:04 -0800
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:53:11 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <009301c1ae7e$be577700$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530502b884b0eb2bb2 [12.21.208.7]>
 <3C602F84.DB08C1C7 bellsouth.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"noZbl.0.Jf2.4d3Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45987
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>

> France, where in France?  Rennes-le-Chateau?


Yes,  that was where B. Sauniere discovered that the Arc of the Covenant was in
reality, a cold fusion reactor  ;-)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 13:00:21 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15976;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:55:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:55:20 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205155406.00abe298 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:54:17 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"--fBM3.0.Tv3.uQ4Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45988
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

See:

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/034/nation/Honda_steers_hybrid_to_mass_market+.shtml

A hybrid version of the Civic will be on sale in the U.S. in March. Two new 
Toyota hybrid models are already available in Japan.

Meanwhile, U.S. manufacturers are scheming to avoid an increase in CAFE 
standards, and the administration has scrapped a project to develop harbors 
and other advanced "supercar" features. The project began in 1992 and is 
scheduled to complete in 1994. These policies will seem misguided in 
retrospect if Kenneth Deffeyes is correct and oil production peaks and 
begins a rapid worldwide decline this decade.

U.S. manufacturers say they are making serious efforts to bring hybrids to 
the market. Next year Ford hopes to introduce an SUV that gets 40 mpg. 
Other U.S. manufacturers hope to introduce limited numbers of hybrids 2003, 
2004 and 2005, by which time Toyota and Honda may be selling 200,000 to 
300,000 per year.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 13:23:23 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01233;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:20:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:20:09 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205161855.00aee620 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:20:14 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Strontium-90 TEV recovered in Russia
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"qcZYj3.0.BJ.8o4Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45989
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

See:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/02/05/georgia.nuclear/index.html

QUOTE:

"The devices -- which contain highly radioactive Strontium-90 -- were found 
by three local woodsmen, who used their glowing heat to keep warm.

Two are still in hospital. Officials say they are increasing their efforts 
to prevent similar materials falling into the wrong hands."


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 14:04:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29067;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:02:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:02:44 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b886057b82a9 [12.21.211.159]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:05:23 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"4AenA2.0.367.3Q5Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45990
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 3:54 PM 2/5/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Other U.S. manufacturers hope to introduce limited numbers of hybrids 2003,
>2004 and 2005, by which time Toyota and Honda may be selling 200,000 to
>300,000 per year.
>
>- Jed


It strikes me as incredibly stupid to wait for fuel cells to become
practical to develop a hydrogen distribution system.  Hydrogen internal
combustion motor technology is available now and is readily adaptable to
hybrid use.  Honda devolped small hydrogen engine technology years ago.
Fuel cell technology could be intorduced much earlier and smoother if
infrastructure to support hydrogen based hybrids is built.  Like the
superhighway system, it is not likely to be built soon or fast without some
government support.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 14:07:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29152;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:02:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:02:55 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8860355018f [12.21.211.159]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:05:20 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
Resent-Message-ID: <"dNzxS3.0.K77.CQ5Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45991
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:16 PM 2/5/2, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> However, if SHC exists, then
>> it is probably not the most robust form of the power generation either.
>> Nature put together, at random, a nuclear reactor in France long before
>> humans had a clue as to what an atom was.
>
>
>Hugh, er, Horace,
>
>You sure this natural reactor wasn't in Oklo, Gabon, Africa?  If
>France, where in France?  Rennes-le-Chateau?  ;-)
>
>Terry


Yes, fairly sure.  Well, as sure as one can be for one who has a bad
memory.  8^)  If I recall correctly, I saw it on a Nova program and it was
located in the south of France.  The strata were exposed on a small nearly
vertical cliff facing the road and you could walk right up to them, or so
it looked.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 14:44:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21237;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:37:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:37:00 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205171235.00a88568 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:37:07 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b886057b82a9 [12.21.211.159]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"oHPG22.0.eB5.Cw5Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45992
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>It strikes me as incredibly stupid to wait for fuel cells to become
>practical to develop a hydrogen distribution system.  Hydrogen internal
>combustion motor technology is available now and is readily adaptable to 
>hybrid use.

They are not cost effective. It takes a good deal of energy to extract the 
hydrogen from water, natural gas or what-have-you. When you burn it in an 
ICE, that is only 18% to 20% efficient. It is only a little more efficient 
than burning gasoline, and gasoline takes much less energy to refine. A 
small fuel cell is ~50% efficient. A gasoline reformer plus fuel cell is 
about 43% efficient, so it would be better to reform gasoline and run it 
through a fuel cell than to burn it in an ICE. In other words, it would be 
cheaper to use our present fuel distribution system to run fuel cells than 
ICE. We should introduce fuel cell cars first, before we build the hydrogen 
distribution infrastructure.


>Honda devolped small hydrogen engine technology years ago.
>Fuel cell technology could be intorduced much earlier and smoother if
>infrastructure to support hydrogen based hybrids is built.

As I said, I think it would be more economical and practical to do it the 
other way around: gasoline fuel cells first. of course you cannot use the 
gasoline models with pure hydrogen, but they would pave the way giving 
engineers and drivers valuable experience, while they saved huge amounts of 
money in fuel.


>Like the superhighway system, it is not likely to be built soon or fast 
>without some government support.

If gasoline goes to $5 per gallon I predict it will be built in ten years. 
If it goes to $10 per gallon, we will have an infrastructure in four years. 
That is the time it took to transform society and build the weapons of 
WWII. We could do it it with fission or wind power, or both. We should have 
done it 30 years ago.

The biggest problem with hydrogen is storage. cryogenic liquid hydrogen 
would be ideal for airplanes and long haul trucks, but as I mentioned 
before it might not work well with automobiles which are left parked much 
of the time. The book "Tomorrow's Energy" quotes a loss rate of 1% per day 
with modern cryogen tanks. That would be fine with trucks, airplanes or 
trains which are fueled prior to departure on a regular schedule, but not 
automobiles. Liquid hydrogen compared to gasoline or jet fuel has better 
energy density per unit of mass, but lower energy per unit of volume. In 
other words, an airplane would have to have bulkier, larger tanks, but 
overall the fuel would weigh less and airplane would consume less energy 
per passenger mile. The larger tanks could be streamlined. In the event of 
an accident, the fuel that leaks from them would be considerably safer than 
kerosene jet fuel, even if it ignited.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 14:49:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30521;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:48:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:48:25 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205174535.00aeb960 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:48:34 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: 130 mpg hybrid experimental vehicle
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"qh-FT3.0.pS7.v46Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45993
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

EV World describes the current record holder:

http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=294

This is probably approaching the thermodynamic limits. I doubt any chemical 
fuel enclosed passenger vehicle will get significantly better mileage than 
this. It must rival a motorcycle!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 15:24:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18065;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:20:49 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:20:49 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205181446.00abe298 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:20:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205155406.00abe298 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"zrCWm2.0.4Q4.DZ6Oy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45994
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote:

>Meanwhile, U.S. manufacturers are scheming to avoid an increase in CAFE 
>standards, and the administration has scrapped a project to develop 
>harbors . . .

Meant hybrids. Voice input acting up. Also, that is supposed to be a 
strontium-90 TEG, not TEV. That was a typo.

The part about the CAFE standards is described in a cynical Wall Street 
Journal article, Jan. 28, 2002, with multiple headlines:

"Evasive Maneuvers

Detroit Again Tries To Dodge Pressures For a 'Greener' Fleet

Oil Fears Since Sept. 11 Add Urgency to Latest Round Of Gas-Mileage Politics

'Supercars' and Fuel Cells"

By JEFFREY BALL

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 15:37:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26585;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:34:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:34:17 -0800
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: 130 mpg hybrid experimental vehicle
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:44:49 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEEKDBAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205174535.00aeb960 pop.mindspring.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"8mepX1.0.JV6.ul6Oy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45995
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Yeah, it's remarkable car really, sort of like the old
"supermileage" rumours suddenly sprung to life. The
Japanese are gonna kick our collective world butts on
this technology, and I have to wonder why. I could see
a ready market in the 18-30 age range, though they should
be more sporty with just two seats and extra room for baggage.
Where are the results of the previous government program
to develop high-efficieny ICE's? Did they really just abandon
it entirely?

I wonder about the current hydrogen energy policy. It sounds
good, like energy de-regulation sounded a few years back.
Now we have Enron. I wonder how they plan on closing the
loop and generating the H2? Coal? Nuclear? SuperPlasmaBurners(grin).

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:49 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: 130 mpg hybrid experimental vehicle


EV World describes the current record holder:

http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=294

This is probably approaching the thermodynamic limits. I doubt any chemical
fuel enclosed passenger vehicle will get significantly better mileage than
this. It must rival a motorcycle!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  5 20:17:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15219;
	Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:15:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:15:00 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b88657b20019 [12.21.211.92]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:17:48 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y1rTy3.0.jj3.4tAOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45996
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:37 PM 2/5/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>It strikes me as incredibly stupid to wait for fuel cells to become
>>practical to develop a hydrogen distribution system.  Hydrogen internal
>>combustion motor technology is available now and is readily adaptable to
>>hybrid use.
>
>They are not cost effective. It takes a good deal of energy to extract the
>hydrogen from water, natural gas or what-have-you. When you burn it in an
>ICE, that is only 18% to 20% efficient. It is only a little more efficient
>than burning gasoline, and gasoline takes much less energy to refine. A
>small fuel cell is ~50% efficient. A gasoline reformer plus fuel cell is
>about 43% efficient, so it would be better to reform gasoline and run it
>through a fuel cell than to burn it in an ICE. In other words, it would be
>cheaper to use our present fuel distribution system to run fuel cells than
>ICE. We should introduce fuel cell cars first, before we build the hydrogen
>distribution infrastructure.


I think you are overlooking the actuarial risks associated with loss of
most of our oil supply.  Also, production of hydrogen can occur on off
hours.  If renewables, like wind, are used to generate the hydrogen, then
the energy cost becomes far less signifcant.  Use of reactor excess
capacity should also not be as expensive as regular consumption.  Of course
a secondary benefit of using hydrogen is clean air.  We are going to have
to stomach the cost sooner or later, so better sooner.  Another secondary
benefit may be a very large and undending boost to the US and ultimately to
the world economy.


>
>
>>Honda devolped small hydrogen engine technology years ago.
>>Fuel cell technology could be intorduced much earlier and smoother if
>>infrastructure to support hydrogen based hybrids is built.
>
>As I said, I think it would be more economical and practical to do it the
>other way around: gasoline fuel cells first. of course you cannot use the
>gasoline models with pure hydrogen, but they would pave the way giving
>engineers and drivers valuable experience, while they saved huge amounts of
>money in fuel.


I still think waiting 10 years for practical fuel cell cars will prove to
be a major blunder, and presents an unnecessary threat to national
security. In addition, conversion to hydrogen would go a long way toward
world opinion regarding the US response to global warming.



>
>
>>Like the superhighway system, it is not likely to be built soon or fast
>>without some government support.
>
>If gasoline goes to $5 per gallon I predict it will be built in ten years.
>If it goes to $10 per gallon, we will have an infrastructure in four years.
>That is the time it took to transform society and build the weapons of
>WWII. We could do it it with fission or wind power, or both. We should have
>done it 30 years ago.
>
>The biggest problem with hydrogen is storage. cryogenic liquid hydrogen
>would be ideal for airplanes and long haul trucks, but as I mentioned
>before it might not work well with automobiles which are left parked much
>of the time. The book "Tomorrow's Energy" quotes a loss rate of 1% per day
>with modern cryogen tanks. That would be fine with trucks, airplanes or
>trains which are fueled prior to departure on a regular schedule, but not
>automobiles. Liquid hydrogen compared to gasoline or jet fuel has better
>energy density per unit of mass, but lower energy per unit of volume. In
>other words, an airplane would have to have bulkier, larger tanks, but
>overall the fuel would weigh less and airplane would consume less energy
>per passenger mile. The larger tanks could be streamlined. In the event of
>an accident, the fuel that leaks from them would be considerably safer than
>kerosene jet fuel, even if it ignited.
>
>- Jed


So then fuel cells in 10 years are just "pie in the sky?"  If the above is
true, then the US ending programs to obtain prevalent use of hybrid
vehicles is the stupid thing.  There are no guarantees that fuel cells will
have any better hydrogen storage in 10 years.

There are storage media that require heating to release the hydrogen, e.g.
powdered iron, that might work well for longer term storage.  Hopefully
nanotube storage will come along faster if enough priority is placd upon
it.

If gaosline disappears for the average driver, then stopping often to
refill may not seem so unacceptable.  With a hybrid you can always make it
to a filling station on a battery charge.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 01:03:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13139;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:00:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:00:59 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100302b88695c286f7 [4.46.76.99]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b88583daee12 [12.21.209.180]>
References: <v01530501b88583daee12 [12.21.209.180]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:59:07 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"385Xb.0.AD3.A3FOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45997
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Horris Hefner Posted;



>I take it you haven't read much of what I posted.  I'll try to briefly
>summarise.  The work I did was over 4 years ago.  I am not doing the work
>

I sorry, I get a lot of email. I agree, even 160 COP is too small to 
prove O U especially when chemical reactions have to be factored in. 
I am interested in the Blue glow, In next week's Torah portion G-d 
shows up, standing on sapphire bricks. As I told the teacher the same 
phenomena is also associated with nuclear reactions. It is also 
associated with cavitation. I'm reading Davson's book on Shappeller, 
The primary state of matter is glowing magnetism.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 05:22:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26652;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:20:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:20:02 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b886cc516697 [12.21.211.92]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:22:50 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ty5641.0.HW6.2sIOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45998
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Here is some fuel for thought!  8^)

The CRC Handbook gives the Gibbs energy of formation for Al2O3 and H2O in
kJ/mol as follows:

   Al2O3:  -1582.3 kJ/mol

   H2O:    -228.6 kJ/mol

Given atomic weight of Al is 26.98, and H is 1.007, we have the following
output per gram of input for the two fuels:

   Al2O3:  (-1582.3 kJ/mol)/(2 * 26.98g/mol) = 29.32 kJ/g

   H2O:    (-228.6 kJ/mol)/(2 * 1.007g/mol) = 113.5 J/g

Though only about 1/4 as efficient as hydrogen for energy storage by
weight, aluminum is far easier and safer to store and transport, and 29.32
kJ/g, or 30 MJ/kg, is very acceptable.  At 7.14 g/cm^2 density, Al provides
(30 kJ/g)/(7.14 g/cm^3) = 4.11 kJ/cm^3, or 4.11 MJ per liter of Al, a very
acceptable amount.  That's 1.14 kWh, or 1.52 hp hours, enough to run a 1.52
hp motor for an hour.  At a typical 7 hp cruising speed that is a fuel
consumption of (7 hp)/(1.52 hp h/l) = 5 l/hr.  If the vehicle maintains 50
mph, then the fuel consumption is (50 mi)/(5 l) = 10 miles per liter of
fuel.  A 100 mile fillup would consist of 10 liters of fuel, or 71.4 kg of
fuel.

If we obtain the energy from the aluminum by pyrolisis, then we have the
side benefit of obtaining hydrogen for either immediate recombination with
air, or for temporary high pressure storage.  Electrolysis, a bit
mysteriously, seems to work just as well, or even better, in terms of
mol/amp and mol/J, at high pressures as at low pressure.  Using pyrolisis
also permits us to more directly obtain energy from breaking and to convert
it to heat, which can be used to drive a motor for charging a battery, and
to produce high pressure hydrogen for storage.

Since the pyrolisis of Al removes the oxygen from water, the hydrogen is
evolved at the rate of 3 mols of H per mol of Al, thus 3(-228.6 kJ/mol) is
produced for each (-1582.3 kJ/mol) of Al, or an extra 685.8 kJ per 1582.3
kJ produced from Al oxidation, or an about 43.3 percent extra energy from
the evolved hydrogen.  This raises the apparent energy output of the Al to
41.93 kJ/g.

All the heat produced in a well insulated pyrolisis cell, including
resistance heat from the electrolysis current, is converted to either steam
or evolved gas.  If effective use of the steam can be made to drive an
engine, then the process should be very efficient for transportation
purposes.  Energy tapped off the output to drive the pyrolisis would be fed
back to the input side.  The vehicle efficiency then depends fully on the
efficiency of the steam engine or sterling engine employed.

The powdered aluminum oxide effluent that is produced can be filtered and
collected for recycling at fill-up stations.

Magnesium would work too, but is toxic, and berylium would provide more
kJ's per gram, and the largest MJ/m^3 of any chemical fuel, but is toxic.
Aluminum is common.  Even aluminum cans can be recycled into fuel.

Up with the aluminum economy!

Hope I got all the right.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 07:22:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26407;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:18:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:18:09 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:18:12 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b88657b20019 [12.21.211.92]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"QWV-v.0.TS6.naKOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/45999
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>I think you are overlooking the actuarial risks associated with loss of
>most of our oil supply.  Also, production of hydrogen can occur on off
>hours. If renewables, like wind, are used to generate the hydrogen, then
>the energy cost becomes far less signifcant.

Wind and other renewables would still not be cost effective, but they would 
not add to the burden of pollution or CO2. Wind and other renewables cost 
more than coal because of equipment and maintenance costs. When you refine 
and use fossil fuel directly in an ICE, it takes 9.5 units of starting 
energy to produce one unit of vehicle propulsion. When you use fossil, 
nuclear or wind energy to produce hydrogen, and then you burn the hydrogen 
in ICE, it takes 71.9 units of starting energy, 7.6 times more. No one can 
afford transportation at that cost.


>Use of reactor excess capacity should also not be as expensive as regular 
>consumption.

There is no excess reactor capacity. Fission reactors are used to supply 
baseline power 24 hours a day. Fission reactors equipment is expensive but 
the fuel is cheap, so they supply a baseline electricity while other types 
are cycled on and off in response to demand. If you are to produce hydrogen 
with excess capacity at night, he would be converting 71.9 units of coal 
into one unit of propulsion, which is far more wasteful and polluting than 
using fossil fuel directly. If we had a great deal of excess, cheap, 
pollution free electricity at night, hydrogen ICE would be a good idea, but 
there is no such resource at present. It would be shame to throw away 
hydropower for this purpose.

The economics of fuel cells are different. You could burn 12.9 units of 
fossil fuels (coal or gas) to produce one unit of hydrogen fuel cell 
propulsion. This is more polluting and wasteful than burning fossil fuel 
directly with an ICE, but you can't burn coal in an automobile, so people 
might resort to this when oil becomes scarce. I hope they do not. A better 
alternative would be to gasify 6.3 units of coal to produce 4.1 units of 
hydrogen, and one unit of vehicle propulsion. That produces less pollution, 
and it does not use up oil. I believe most of the carbon can be sequestered 
during the gasification process.

The least polluting alternative would be to convert 32.8 units of solar or 
wind power into 4.1 units of hydrogen, into one unit of propulsion. 
However, given the costs of solar and wind power today this would 
be  expensive. If wind power falls to 2 cents per kWh, this would become 
reasonably economical. I have not run the numbers, but I think it would be 
favorable to gasoline at $3 per gallon. It would require a huge investment 
in infrastructure and pipelines, which would take many years to build.

These numbers are from the NREL book, "Hydrogen Program Plan," 1997.


>I still think waiting 10 years for practical fuel cell cars will prove to
>be a major blunder . . .

It would be a blunder, but we need not wait that long. Production line 
could crank out nothing but fuel cell cars in 4 years, and most cars on the 
road could be converted in about 8 years. U.S. automobile makers want to 
delay as long as they can -- forever if possible -- because they do not 
want spend the money to revamp their factories, according to the WSJ. I 
suspect their fuel cell concept cars and the administration's initiative 
are a sop to public relations, and they actually have no intention to 
produce fuel cell or hybrid cars now or ever. It costs them practically 
nothing to display a fancy concept car, compared to actually solving the 
problem or seriously competing with the Japanese. They have not thought 
about the future cost of not competing when gasoline goes to $5 per gallon.

The Journal says the U.S. makers game plan is to manipulate the legal 
process and CAFE standards to hurt the Japanese competition, by forcing all 
carmakers to increase efficiency by the same percent, across the board. 
Suppose the new CAFE increase is 5%. The American SUV manufacturer has to 
go from 20 to 21 mpg, which is trivial. The Japanese has to go from 35 mpg 
to 37 mpg, which is difficult and expensive.


>. . . and presents an unnecessary threat to national security. In 
>addition, conversion to hydrogen would go a long way toward world opinion 
>regarding the US response to global warming.

Yes, but they would cost the automakers profit, and the automakers have a 
monopoly, so no capitalist economic pressure forces them to do what is 
right for customers, national security or the planet. Also, few  customers 
are willing to pay extra for low pollution and national security. Gasoline 
at $5 is more likely to force through reforms than patriotism. People are 
willing to pay thousands more in taxes to build weapons, but they will not 
spend an extra $2000 for a hybrid or fuel cell motor that pays back the 
investment in a few years.


>So then fuel cells in 10 years are just "pie in the sky?"

The automakers and administration want to make fuel cells pie in the sky, 
because it is cheaper for them than actually fixing the problem. It shifts 
the cost burden to the rest of society. However, fuel cells need not be pie 
in the sky.


>If the above is true, then the US ending programs to obtain prevalent use 
>of hybrid vehicles is the stupid thing.  There are no guarantees that fuel 
>cells will have any better hydrogen storage in 10 years.

If hydrogen storage does not improve, hydrogen ICE will be even less 
practical than fuel cells.


>If gaosline disappears for the average driver, then stopping often to
>refill may not seem so unacceptable.  With a hybrid you can always make it 
>to a filling station on a battery charge.

No, you cannot drive one without the gasoline ICE operating. They are not 
designed for that. The batteries have little storage capacity. They only 
work as a buffer to smooth out the demand on the engine, and absorb energy 
during deceleration and idling. Some of the ICE are designed to shut down 
when the car stops at a red light, but this is a bad idea. It increases 
pollution when the motor goes on and off frequently. U.S. standards will 
probably not allow this type of hybrid. The Japanese have modified their 
design to keep the motor running all the time. This does not waste energy. 
It means the battery buffer has to be made a little larger to store the 
energy while the car is idling at the light.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 11:36:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14631;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:35:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:35:14 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b887316826eb [12.21.209.148]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:38:04 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Heisenberg trapping of electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"qQH0x3.0.Va3.nLOOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46001
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Earlier, it was noted that, if an electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom
volume, trapped, there is an uncertainty of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the
momentum and thus 6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV uncertainty on energy. It was
proposed that confining the conduction band electrons of Pd, which are
paired with adsorbed hydrogen nucleii, at heavy loading, would produce an
increase in electron momentum uncertainty that might be tapped as an energy
conduit to the zero point field.

One problem with this idea is that the momentum increase might simply
result in pressure on the lattice.  For this reason, it may be essential to
impose a current in the Pd in order to move the conduction band electrons
along from trap to trap.  Moving the electron should then increase the
probability of phonon production when the conduction band electron is in a
state of increased momentum.  The requirement for a current in electrodes
to bring about ZPE tapping eliminates this as an explanation for "heat
after death" but does provide an explanation for at least some energy
beyond chemical energy, "free energy," measured in association with various
electrolysis experiments.

The most contoverting evidence for this theory is that excess heat in Pd is
often found using deuterium but not protium.  On the other hand, excess
heat is reported in Ni-protium systems, for which there is no conventional
nuclear explanation.  Detailed analysis of the degree of confinement of
conduction electrons in loaded Pd and Ni lattices is required.
Experimentally, a correlation of excess heat production as a function of
current through the electrode, as opposed to and distinct from current
trough the electrolyte, is required.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 11:39:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14616;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:35:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:35:13 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8871c092163 [12.21.209.148]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:37:59 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"DU18p2.0.Ia3.nLOOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46000
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:18 AM 2/6/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:

[snip]
>When you use fossil,
>nuclear or wind energy to produce hydrogen, and then you burn the hydrogen
>in ICE, it takes 71.9 units of starting energy, 7.6 times more. No one can
>afford transportation at that cost.

If there were no gasoline available, I have no doubt a very large part of
the american public would spend $10.00 a gallon for gas, and others would
adjust their lifestyles to avoid long commutes in a private auto.


[snip]
>>I still think waiting 10 years for practical fuel cell cars will prove to
>>be a major blunder . . .
>
>It would be a blunder, but we need not wait that long. Production line
>could crank out nothing but fuel cell cars in 4 years,

Not without the storage problem solved.


>>. . . and presents an unnecessary threat to national security. In
>>addition, conversion to hydrogen would go a long way toward world opinion
>>regarding the US response to global warming.
>
>Yes, but they would cost the automakers profit, and the automakers have a
>monopoly, so no capitalist economic pressure forces them to do what is
>right for customers, national security or the planet.

This is merely a justification for doing the stupid thing.

>Also, few  customers
>are willing to pay extra for low pollution and national security. Gasoline
>at $5 is more likely to force through reforms than patriotism. People are
>willing to pay thousands more in taxes to build weapons, but they will not
>spend an extra $2000 for a hybrid or fuel cell motor that pays back the
>investment in a few years.


People can be educated.  Businesses, on the other hand, should readily be
educated that their very existence is dependent upon transportation.


>
>
>>So then fuel cells in 10 years are just "pie in the sky?"
>
>The automakers and administration want to make fuel cells pie in the sky,
>because it is cheaper for them than actually fixing the problem. It shifts
>the cost burden to the rest of society. However, fuel cells need not be pie
>in the sky.
>
>
>>If the above is true, then the US ending programs to obtain prevalent use
>>of hybrid vehicles is the stupid thing.  There are no guarantees that fuel
>>cells will have any better hydrogen storage in 10 years.
>
>If hydrogen storage does not improve, hydrogen ICE will be even less
>practical than fuel cells.
>
>
>>If gaosline disappears for the average driver, then stopping often to
>>refill may not seem so unacceptable.  With a hybrid you can always make it
>>to a filling station on a battery charge.
>
>No, you cannot drive one without the gasoline ICE operating.


All the above is circular reasoning. Either we have storge of hydrogen for
vehicles or we do  not.  If we do not, then BOTH the ICE and fuel cell
alternatives are equally unworkable, therfore ending the present effort to
develop gasline hybrids is potential economic suicide and a threat to
national security.


>They are not
>designed for that. The batteries have little storage capacity.


Nonsensical?. There are no hydrogen ICEs to my knowledge. They can be
designed with enough battery power to limp to a filling station.  A better
alternative might be to provide some high pressure gas storage for that
purpose (backup.)


>They only
>work as a buffer to smooth out the demand on the engine, and absorb energy
>during deceleration and idling. Some of the ICE are designed to shut down
>when the car stops at a red light, but this is a bad idea.
[snip]

Amen to that. It means the ICE is over sized, the batteries undersized.


After hearing the numbers you provide, it does make me wonder if methane is
the way to go.  Better to do coal gassification than to burn coal directly,
I suspect.  We have huge reserves of coal and have a trillion cf reserve on
the North Slope, and an existing distribution system in the US.  Methane
auto and truck fleets are presently in operation in various places, and
conversion is not overly expensive.  It is a very practical alternative,
though more polluting than hydrogen.  Coal gassification in the 1970's was
economical at about $0.70 an mcf.  Don't know what the price is today.  One
problem with coal is the horrific damage caused by mining.

One system tested for home use included a compressor for daily fill-ups of
methane at home.  The cost was about 1/3 that of gasoline at the time, but
the difference was mostly taxes, which would surely reappear eventually.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 14:04:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07418;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:00:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:00:24 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206162915.03a500b0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:52:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b8871c092163 [12.21.209.148]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"kgEfr.0.lp1.uTQOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46002
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

 >When you use fossil,
> >nuclear or wind energy to produce hydrogen, and then you burn the hydrogen
> >in ICE, it takes 71.9 units of starting energy, 7.6 times more. No one can
> >afford transportation at that cost.
>
>If there were no gasoline available, I have no doubt a very large part of
>the american public would spend $10.00 a gallon for gas, and others would 
>adjust their lifestyles to avoid long commutes in a private auto.

This is irrelevant. My point was that if you have the hydrogen it makes 
more economic sense to run it through a fuel cell than an ICE.


> >It would be a blunder, but we need not wait that long. Production line
> >could crank out nothing but fuel cell cars in 4 years,
>
>Not without the storage problem solved.

Actually, it is solved already. Conventional compressed hydrogen gas 
storage can easily give fuel cell cars a range of 100 to 200 miles. 
Advanced compression tanks have been developed and bought by GM. (See 
attached.) A 200 mile range would be inconvenient compared to gasoline, but 
if the alternative was to pay $5 per gallon no one would complain. A long 
haul truck or railroad engine would carry a large, bulky liquid hydrogen 
tank. It would be the lighter then an equivalent gasoline tank, but bulkier.

>All the above is circular reasoning. Either we have storge of hydrogen for 
>vehicles or we do  not.

The storage problem is mainly one of perception and convenience.


>Nonsensical?. There are no hydrogen ICEs to my knowledge.

A few have been made, but no production models as far as I know. They would 
be economic insanity.


>After hearing the numbers you provide, it does make me wonder if methane 
>is the way to go.

If we're going to use fossil fuel, natural gas would be the best choice. It 
is easily reformatted for use in a fuel cell. It is available everywhere, 
and could easily be transferred to automobile tanks. We have much greater 
remaining supplies than oil. This is by far the most energy efficient and 
cost-effective method presently available. 3.6 units of natural gas energy 
convert to one unit of vehicle propulsion. (Recall that gasoline => ICE 
takes 9.5 units.)

A natural gas fuel cell system would be a good way to transition to a 
hydrogen system. We gain experience building fuel cell cars starting today. 
We save a tremendous amount of energy, and eliminate almost all pollution. 
We eliminate the use of oil. When the hydrogen distribution network is 
built, 10 or 20 years later, the automotive engineers are ready. They might 
even be able to retrofit old natural gas cars to consume hydrogen, which is 
a lot cleaner.


>Better to do coal gassification than to burn coal directly, I suspect.

Way better, but it would add more pollution and carbon to the air than 
burning gasoline. Still, if we have not gasoline we may end up doing this.

- Jed


- - - - - - - - - - - -

http://detnews.com/2001/autos/0106/13/c01-235622.htm

June 13, 2001

GM steps up fuel-cell pace
Automaker acquires 20% stake in Quantum Technologies, hydrogen storage tank 
maker

By Joe Miller / The Detroit News

DETROIT -- Hoping to increase the range of its future fuel-cell vehicles, 
General Motors Corp. acquired a 20-percent stake in Quantum Technologies 
Inc., a maker of hydrogen storage tanks.

GM said Quantum, based in Irvine, Calif., is on the verge of introducing a 
tank that can store enough compressed hydrogen to power a fuel-cell car for 
300 to 500 miles, the range of today's gasoline-powered vehicles. . . .

GM has dedicated 250 engineers to develop an affordable fuel-cell system.

Acknowledging that there is no existing infrastructure for distributing 
hydrogen, the automaker has partnered with Exxon Mobil Corp. to develop a 
processor that can pull hydrogen out of gasoline. . . .

The next hurdle is finding a way to efficiently store hydrogen in a 
vehicle. GM is looking at several developing technologies, but Burns said 
the most logical near-term solution is compressed hydrogen tanks.
Last year, Quantum developed a tank that can store hydrogen at 5,000 pounds 
per square inch, twice as much as typical tanks and enough to power a 
fuel-cell car 250 miles. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 18:08:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29481;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:04:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:04:30 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <10.198a0477.29933a83 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:03:47 EST
Subject: News from Chukanov 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com,
        fstenger suite224.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"N0vWL2.0.ZC7.k2UOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46003
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_boundary
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_alt_boundary"


--part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_alt_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en

In a message dated 2/6/02 1:43:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
asammons satx.rr.com writes:

Dear Scientists and fellow citizens, Very recently, a new ground-breaking=20
source of energy has been discovered.  This new energy is called =E2=80=9Cth=
e quantum=20
energy,=E2=80=9D which originates from the quantum plasma macro-object known=
 as the =E2=80=9C
ball lightning=E2=80=9D.  For the first time, this naturally occurring pheno=
menon was=20
reproduced in the laboratory environment.  After years of secret research an=
d=20
development, we are ready to share our discovery with the scientific=20
community. Within this decade, this extraordinary event will change the way=20
we perceive science.  Why?  This energy is truly =E2=80=9Cunlimited=E2=80=
=9D.  It comes from=20
within, and is the quantum gift of nature.  In the dimensional transition,=20
the energy given off by macro-object exceeds the energy consumed during its=20
creation.  This =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D energy is the foundation of our disco=
very.  Moreover,=20
in the process we have created a compact electron particle accelerator that=20
is more efficient than the world=E2=80=99s largest circular accelerator (CER=
N,=20
Geneva), promising up to 13,500GeV =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s almost twice as=20=
powerful.  We=20
have charted the new science, General Quantum Mechanics, which was used to=20
develop our first demonstrational prototype.  We are now moving on toward=20
industrial implementation, and are in process of building our first 100KWATT=
=20
industrial generator.  If you are even remotely interested or intrigued by=20
this phenomenal discovery, all pertinent information, including pictures, ha=
s=20
been published on our website: <A HREF=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/">ht=
tp://www.ChukanovEnergy.com</A> If you would=20
like to obtain published literature, two publications are available at <A HR=
EF=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/learning.htm">
http://www.chukanovenergy.com/learning.htm</A> :=20
FINAL QUANTUM REVELATION: General Theory of World Organization (ISBN=20
0-9643579-1-7)=20
GENERAL QUANTUM MECHANICS: The Great Reform of Science (ISBN 0-9665261-1-2)=20=
=20
These two publications complete Dr. Kiril Chukanov=E2=80=99s scientific work=
=20
entitled: General Quantum Mechanics To join our non-commercial mailing list,=
=20
please follow the following URL: <A HREF=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/co=
ntact.htm">http://www.chukanovenergy.com/contact.htm</A>  I=20
sincerely hope that you will find this topic interesting and revealing, as=20
well as educational.  Sincerely, Alexander Sammons.Chukanov Quantum Energy,=20
LLC.<A HREF=3D"mailto:asammons racer.satx.rr.com">asammons@racer.satx.rr.com=
</A> This is a one time invitation, and not a spam=20
message.  Please excuse us if it causes a temporary inconvenience.=20


> Chukanov=20
























































--part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_alt_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/6/02 1:43:55 PM Eastern Standard=20=
Time, asammons satx.rr.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Dear Scientists and fe=
llow citizens, Very recently, a new ground-breaking source of energy has bee=
n discovered.&nbsp; This new energy is called =E2=80=9Cthe quantum energy,=
=E2=80=9D which originates from the quantum plasma macro-object known as the=
 =E2=80=9Cball lightning=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; For the first time, this naturally=20=
occurring phenomenon was reproduced in the laboratory environment.&nbsp; Aft=
er years of secret research and development, we are ready to share our disco=
very with the scientific community. Within this decade, this extraordinary e=
vent will change the way we perceive science.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; This energy i=
s truly =E2=80=9Cunlimited=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; It comes from within, and is the=20=
quantum gift of nature.&nbsp; In the dimensional transition, the energy give=
n off by macro-object exceeds the energy consumed during its creation.&nbsp;=
 This =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D energy is the foundation of our discovery.&nbsp=
; Moreover, in the process we have created a compact electron particle accel=
erator that is more efficient than the world=E2=80=99s largest circular acce=
lerator (CERN, Geneva), promising up to 13,500GeV =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s a=
lmost twice as powerful.&nbsp; We have charted the new science, General Quan=
tum Mechanics, which was used to develop our first demonstrational prototype=
.&nbsp; We are now moving on toward industrial implementation, and are in pr=
ocess of building our first 100KWATT industrial generator.&nbsp; If you are=20=
even remotely interested or intrigued by this phenomenal discovery, all pert=
inent information, including pictures, has been published on our website: <A=
 HREF=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/">http://www.ChukanovEnergy.com</A> I=
f you would like to obtain published literature, two publications are availa=
ble at <A HREF=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/learning.htm">http://www.chu=
kanovenergy.com/learning.htm</A> : <BR>
FINAL QUANTUM REVELATION: General Theory of World Organization (</FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D1 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><B>ISBN 0-9643579-1-7)</FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"></B> <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">GENERAL QUANTUM MECHAN=
ICS: The Great Reform of Science (</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D1 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LAN=
G=3D"0"><B>ISBN 0-9665261-1-2</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"=
0"></B>)&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ff=
ffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0"> These t=
wo publications complete Dr. Kiril Chukanov=E2=80=99s scientific work entitl=
ed: General Quantum Mechanics To join our non-commercial mailing list, pleas=
e follow the following URL: <A HREF=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/contact=
.htm">http://www.chukanovenergy.com/contact.htm</A>&nbsp; I sincerely hope t=
hat you will find this topic interesting and revealing, as well as education=
al.&nbsp; Sincerely, Alexander Sammons.Chukanov Quantum Energy, LLC.<A HREF=
=3D"mailto:asammons racer.satx.rr.com">asammons@racer.satx.rr.com</A> This i=
s a one time invitation, and not a spam message.&nbsp; Please excuse us if i=
t causes a temporary inconvenience.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"=
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCIT=
E style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0=
px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Chukanov </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_alt_boundary--

--part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-Path: <asammons satx.rr.com>
Received: from  rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILINYH410-0206134355; Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:43:55 -0500
Received: from  home-e0qq4g54jt.satx.rr.com (cs666986-48.satx.rr.com [66.69.86.48]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYH42-0206134237; Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:42:37 -0500
From: "Alexander Sammons" <asammons satx.rr.com>
To: fznidarsic aol.com
Subject: Re: New Groundbreaking Source of Energy Discovered
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 03:56:43 -0600
Message-ID: <000501c1aef4$94f2d500$30564542 homee0qq4g54jt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1AEC2.4A59EBA0"
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000


------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1AEC2.4A59EBA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Scientists and fellow citizens,
 
Very recently, a new ground-breaking source of energy has been
discovered.  This new energy is called "the quantum energy," which
originates from the quantum plasma macro-object known as the "ball
lightning".  For the first time, this naturally occurring phenomenon was
reproduced in the laboratory environment.  After years of secret
research and development, we are ready to share our discovery with the
scientific community.
 
Within this decade, this extraordinary event will change the way we
perceive science.  Why?  This energy is truly "unlimited".  It comes
from within, and is the quantum gift of nature.  In the dimensional
transition, the energy given off by macro-object exceeds the energy
consumed during its creation.  This "free" energy is the foundation of
our discovery.  Moreover, in the process we have created a compact
electron particle accelerator that is more efficient than the world's
largest circular accelerator (CERN, Geneva), promising up to 13,500GeV -
that's almost twice as powerful.  We have charted the new science,
General Quantum Mechanics, which was used to develop our first
demonstrational prototype.  We are now moving on toward industrial
implementation, and are in process of building our first 100KWATT
industrial generator. 
 
If you are even remotely interested or intrigued by this phenomenal
discovery, all pertinent information, including pictures, has been
published on our website:
 
http://www.ChukanovEnergy.com <http://www.chukanovenergy.com/> 
 
If you would like to obtain published literature, two publications are
available at http://www.chukanovenergy.com/learning.htm :
 
1.  FINAL QUANTUM REVELATION: General Theory of World Organization
(ISBN 0-9643579-1-7)
2.  GENERAL QUANTUM MECHANICS: The Great Reform of Science (ISBN
0-9665261-1-2)
 
These two publications complete Dr. Kiril Chukanov's scientific work
entitled: General Quantum Mechanics
 
To join our non-commercial mailing list, please follow the following
URL: http://www.chukanovenergy.com/contact.htm 
 
I sincerely hope that you will find this topic interesting and
revealing, as well as educational. 
 
Sincerely,
 
Alexander Sammons.
Chukanov Quantum Energy, LLC.
asammons racer.satx.rr.com
 
This is a one time invitation, and not a spam message.  Please excuse us
if it causes a temporary inconvenience.
 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1AEC2.4A59EBA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:sch=
emas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:offic=
e:smarttags" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">


<meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document>
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10">
<meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10">
<link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml 01C1AEC2.4A0A6C10">
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"=20=
 name=3D"City"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"=20=
 name=3D"place"/>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>=7F <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>=7F  <o:DoNotRelyOnCSS=
/>=7F </o:OfficeDocumentSettings>=7F</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xm=
l>=7F <w:WordDocument>=7F  <w:SpellingState>Clean</w:SpellingState>=7F  <w:G=
rammarState>Clean</w:GrammarState>=7F  <w:DocumentKind>DocumentEmail</w:Docu=
mentKind>=7F  <w:EnvelopeVis/>=7F  <w:Compatibility>=7F   <w:BreakWrappedTab=
les/>=7F   <w:SnapToGridInCell/>=7F   <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>=7F   <w:UseAsia=
nBreakRules/>=7F  </w:Compatibility>=7F  <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetEx=
plorer4</w:BrowserLevel>=7F </w:WordDocument>=7F</xml><![endif]--><!--[if !m=
so]>=7F<style>=7Fst1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }=7F</style>=7F<![endi=
f]-->
<style>
<!--=7F /* Font Definitions */=7F  font-face=7F=09{font-family:Verdana;=7F=09=
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;=7F=09mso-font-charset:0;=7F=09mso-generic-fon=
t-family:swiss;=7F=09mso-font-pitch:variable;=7F=09mso-font-signature:536871=
559 0 0 0 415 0;}=7F /* Style Definitions */=7F p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, d=
iv.MsoNormal=7F=09{mso-style-parent:"";=7F=09margin:0in;=7F=09margin-bottom:=
.0001pt;=7F=09mso-pagination:widow-orphan;=7F=09font-size:12.0pt;=7F=09font-=
family:"Times New Roman";=7F=09mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}=7F=
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink=7F=09{color:blue;=7F=09text-decoration:underline;=7F=
=09text-underline:single;}=7Fa:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=7F=09{colo=
r:purple;=7F=09text-decoration:underline;=7F=09text-underline:single;}=7Fspa=
n.EmailStyle17=7F=09{mso-style-type:personal-compose;=7F=09mso-style-noshow:=
yes;=7F=09mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;=7F=09mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;=7F=09fo=
nt-family:Arial;=7F=09mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;=7F=09mso-hansi-font-famil=
y:Arial;=7F=09mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;=7F=09color:windowtext;}=7Fspan.Spe=
llE=7F=09{mso-style-name:"";=7F=09mso-spl-e:yes;}=7F page Section1=7F=09{siz=
e:8.5in 11.0in;=7F=09margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;=7F=09mso-header-margi=
n:.5in;=7F=09mso-footer-margin:.5in;=7F=09mso-paper-source:0;}=7Fdiv.Section=
1=7F=09{page:Section1;}=7F /* List Definitions */=7F  list l0=7F=09{mso-list=
-id:2006741724;=7F=09mso-list-type:hybrid;=7F=09mso-list-template-ids:147341=
7866 1027222114 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 676987=
13 67698715;}=7F list l0:level1=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;=7F=09mso-leve=
l-number-position:left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;=7F=09mso-ansi-font-size:12.=
0pt;=7F=09mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";=7F=09mso-fareast-font-fam=
ily:"Times New Roman";=7F=09mso-hansi-font-family:"Times New Roman";=7F=09ms=
o-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";=7F=09mso-ansi-font-weight:normal;}=7F =
list l0:level2=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;=7F=09mso-level-number-positio=
n:left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F list l0:level3=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop=
:1.5in;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F li=
st l0:level4=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:2.0in;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:=
left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F list l0:level5=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:2=
.5in;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F list=
 l0:level6=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:3.0in;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:le=
ft;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F list l0:level7=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:3.5=
in;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F list l=
0:level8=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:4.0in;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:left=
;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7F list l0:level9=7F=09{mso-level-tab-stop:4.5in=
;=7F=09mso-level-number-position:left;=7F=09text-indent:-.25in;}=7Fol=7F=09{=
margin-bottom:0in;}=7Ful=7F=09{margin-bottom:0in;}=7F-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 10]>=7F<style>=7F /* Style Definitions */ =7F table.MsoNorma=
lTable=7F=09{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";=7F=09mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;=7F=
=09mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;=7F=09mso-style-noshow:yes;=7F=09mso-style-pare=
nt:"";=7F=09mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;=7F=09mso-para-margin:0in;=7F=
=09mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;=7F=09mso-pagination:widow-orphan;=7F=09fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;=7F=09font-family:"Times New Roman";}=7F</style>=7F<![endif]-=
->
</head>

<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>D=
ear Scientists and fellow citizens,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>V=
ery recently, a new ground-breaking source of energy has been
discovered.<span>&nbsp; </span>This new energy is called
&#8220;the quantum energy,&#8221; which originates from the quantum plasma
macro-object known as the &#8220;ball lightning&#8221;.<span>&nbsp; </span>F=
or the first time, this naturally occurring
phenomenon was reproduced in the laboratory environment.<span>&nbsp; </span>=
After years of secret research and development,
we are ready to share our discovery with the scientific community.<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>W=
ithin this decade, this extraordinary event will change the way we
perceive science.<span>&nbsp; </span>Why?<span>&nbsp; </span>This energy is=20=
truly
&#8220;unlimited&#8221;.<span>&nbsp; </span>It comes from
within, and is the quantum gift of nature.<span>&nbsp;
</span>In the dimensional transition, the energy given off by macro-object
exceeds the energy consumed during its creation.<span>&nbsp; </span>This &#8=
220;free&#8221; energy is the
foundation of our discovery.<span>&nbsp; </span>Moreover,
in the process we have created a compact electron particle accelerator that=20=
is
more efficient than the world&#8217;s largest circular accelerator (CERN, </=
span></font><st1:City><st1:place>Geneva</st1:place></st1:City>),
promising up to 13,500GeV &#8211; that&#8217;s almost twice as powerful.<spa=
n>&nbsp; </span>We have charted the new science, General
Quantum Mechanics, which was used to develop our first demonstrational
prototype.<span>&nbsp; </span>We are now moving on toward
industrial implementation, and are in process of building our first 100KWATT
industrial generator. <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>I=
f you are even remotely interested or intrigued by this phenomenal
discovery, all pertinent information, including pictures, has been published=
 on
our website:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
a href=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/">http://www.ChukanovEnergy.com</a><=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>I=
f you would like to obtain published literature, two publications are
available at <a href=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/learning.htm">http://w=
ww.chukanovenergy.com/learning.htm</a>
:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'><font      size=3D3=20=
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span>FINAL QUANTUM
     REVELATION: General Theory of World Organization (</span></font><b><fon=
t      size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span      font-weight:bold'>ISBN 0-9643579-1=
-7)<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'><font      size=3D3=20=
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span>GENERAL
     QUANTUM MECHANICS: The Great Reform of Science (</span></font><b><font=20=
     size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span      font-weight:bold'>ISBN 0-9665261-1-2=
</span></font></b>)<o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>T=
hese two publications complete Dr. <span class=3DSpellE>Kiril</span> <span c=
lass=3DSpellE>Chukanov&#8217;s</span> scientific work entitled: General Quan=
tum
Mechanics<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>T=
o join our non-commercial mailing list, please follow the following
URL: <a href=3D"http://www.chukanovenergy.com/contact.htm">http://www.chukan=
ovenergy.com/contact.htm</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>I=
 sincerely hope that you will find this topic interesting and
revealing, as well as educational. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>S=
incerely,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>A=
lexander Sammons.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DSpellE><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span>Chukanov</span></font></span> Quantum Energy, LLC.<o:p></o:p></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
a href=3D"mailto:asammons racer.satx.rr.com">asammons@racer.satx.rr.com</a><=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span 12.0pt'>T=
his is a one time invitation, and not a spam message.<span>&nbsp; </span>Ple=
ase excuse us if it causes a temporary
inconvenience.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span font-family:Arial'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1AEC2.4A59EBA0--

--part1_10.198a0477.29933a83_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 18:25:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07396;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:23:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:23:13 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 13:22:34 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <ito36uoopuecrd8s7prrdam3u4egmjvjjr 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b886cc516697 [12.21.211.92]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b886cc516697 [12.21.211.92]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA07350
Resent-Message-ID: <"IQzTv.0.Op1.GKUOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46004
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:22:50 -0900:
[snip]
>Since the pyrolisis of Al removes the oxygen from water, the hydrogen is
>evolved at the rate of 3 mols of H per mol of Al, thus 3(-228.6 kJ/mol) is
>produced for each (-1582.3 kJ/mol) of Al, or an extra 685.8 kJ per 1582.3
>kJ produced from Al oxidation, or an about 43.3 percent extra energy from
>the evolved hydrogen.  This raises the apparent energy output of the Al to
>41.93 kJ/g.
[snip]
>Hope I got all the right.  8^)
[snip]
Almost. I don't think the 685.8 kJ from the produced H2 is actually
"extra", since that energy is removed from the combustion energy of the
Al. IOW you get 685.8 kJ hydrogen fuel energy and 896.5 (1582.3-685.8)
kJ of heat energy per two mole of Al.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  6 19:42:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13463;
	Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:39:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:39:47 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <189.2ee8a54.299350df aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:39:11 EST
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120
Resent-Message-ID: <"gzVTh.0.DI3.2SVOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46005
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace,
Good idea, but it's not very healthy to breath aluminum - or were you not 
aware of that?

CA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 08:36:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01254;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:34:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:34:06 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207111017.00a6fac0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:32:24 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206162915.03a500b0 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <v01530501b8871c092163 [12.21.209.148]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"QJ7VJ.0.WJ.-ngOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46006
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote:

>A natural gas fuel cell system would be a good way to transition to a 
>hydrogen system. We gain experience building fuel cell cars starting 
>today. We save a tremendous amount of energy, and eliminate almost all 
>pollution. . . .

I presume it would be done in stages by geographic area. We would not have 
to wait 20 years before cranking up the first hydrogen automobile. if it 
was based mainly on wind power, most cars in Iowa and the Dakotas would be 
powered purely by hydrogen in five or 10 years, and after 20 years enough 
turbines and types would be built to supply all electricity and all U.S. 
transportation sector energy. This is not a fantasy projection. At the 
present growth rate and distribution of wind power, in 20 or 30 years 
worldwide wind installations will actually produce this much, but most of 
it will be in Europe, not the U.S.

There is no technical reason why we cannot abolish most air pollution and 
save a terrific amount of money on fuel a generation from now, even without 
cold fusion. If we fail to do this -- if we end up paying $5 per gallon for 
gasoline instead -- we will have only ourselves to blame. Actually, $5 per 
gallon gasoline would quickly drive people to conserve and find 
alternatives. Such excessive prices would rebound and destroy the oil 
companies, the way the California power crisis hurt the power companies. 
The power companies gouged and made windfall profits for a while, but soon 
their excessive, shortsighted greed drove their customers to reduce 
consumption permanently. Once the customer buys a new set of fluorescent 
lamps, and a new air-conditioner, he will never again use as much 
electricity. I think some of the top managers at BP and Shell realize this, 
and they are serious about developing economical alternative fuel sources.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 09:15:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22645;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:12:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:12:16 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207115358.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:12:28 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Wind power clarifications
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207111017.00a6fac0 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206162915.03a500b0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <v01530501b8871c092163 [12.21.209.148]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"b2gFZ2.0.lX5.lLhOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46007
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote: ". . . after 20 years enough turbines and types would be built to 
supply all electricity and all U.S. transportation sector energy."

Meant turbines and pipes.

Installed wind power worldwide is now 23,000 MW nameplate, or 6,500 actual 
MW. It is growing at 4,600 MW nameplate per year, or roughly 25% per year. 
Assuming 20% growth (below recent historical averages), wind will produce 
enough for all present day U.S. electricity and transportation by around 
2025. The price per kWh should be much lower than it is today. Most of the 
price is for capital equipment and maintenance. Wind still requires a small 
subsidy to compete with coal in most markets. From my point of view, this 
is because coal users do not pay for the health and property damage they 
cause. In fully fair, free market, wind would be cheaper than coal.

A wind-powered world be a beautiful thing, in a way, yet I hope that by 
2025 wind electricity will be as obsolete as wind driven sailing ships. I 
would not invest in it, knowing what I know of CF. My problem is that I 
know so much about CF, I wouldn't invest in that, either! There are no good 
bets and no safe investments, except having children.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 11:34:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04549;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:31:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:31:24 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Wind power clarifications
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:31:21 -0800
Message-ID: <000c01c1b00e$063a0160$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207115358.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"NqBCg3.0.v61.BOjOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46008
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed,
	Because we have a tort system that encourages lawsuits from whacked out
idiots looking for money and control of all our environment, wind power,
nuclear or fusion will be lawsuited into expensive costs per KW, just
because they can.
	Item: Columbia Gorge ( Washington and Oregon ) wind farms were stopped
because of ( don't laugh) ground squirrels and birds Could ( not proved any
did ) get killed by the blades.
		Based on this logic, anyone with windows on our homes should have
permanent shutters over them to prevent damage to the insects and birds
trying to fly through them.
	Item: No deaths were ever attributed to commercially regulated Nuclear
power , either from the hundreds of tons of highly radioactive waste, or its
use. Yet billions of tones of highly toxic coal burning waste is killing
people around the world for centuries.
	Item:  Airplanes, proven to be a saver per mile mode of transportation than
cars, are law suited out of affordability for the average person.

	Conclusion, Until the torte system is reformed, no commercially viable new
technology will be implemented on a large scale by the average person. The
activists and lawyers, will make it unaffordable or unreachable.
	Get used to your lives the way they are, the system wont allow you to get
any better.
	Question ? Is there an alternative solution to this ? I think there is ..

Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:12 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Wind power clarifications

I wrote: ". . . after 20 years enough turbines and types would be built to
supply all electricity and all U.S. transportation sector energy."

Meant turbines and pipes.

Installed wind power worldwide is now 23,000 MW nameplate, or 6,500 actual
MW. It is growing at 4,600 MW nameplate per year, or roughly 25% per year.
Assuming 20% growth (below recent historical averages), wind will produce
enough for all present day U.S. electricity and transportation by around
2025. The price per kWh should be much lower than it is today. Most of the
price is for capital equipment and maintenance. Wind still requires a small
subsidy to compete with coal in most markets. From my point of view, this
is because coal users do not pay for the health and property damage they
cause. In fully fair, free market, wind would be cheaper than coal.

A wind-powered world be a beautiful thing, in a way, yet I hope that by
2025 wind electricity will be as obsolete as wind driven sailing ships. I
would not invest in it, knowing what I know of CF. My problem is that I
know so much about CF, I wouldn't invest in that, either! There are no good
bets and no safe investments, except having children.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 12:45:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05589;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:38:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:38:09 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207144323.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:38:18 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Wind power clarifications
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1b00e$063a0160$0201a8c0 kitty>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207115358.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"_fr6c.0.EN1.mMkOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46009
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Matthew Rogers wrote:

>         Because we have a tort system that encourages lawsuits from 
> whacked out idiots looking for money and control of all our environment, 
> wind power, nuclear or fusion will be lawsuited into expensive costs per 
> KW, just because they can.

Maybe, but it hasn't happened yet. Wind power is growing very rapidly. 
Also, idiots often lose lawsuits.


>         Item: Columbia Gorge ( Washington and Oregon ) wind farms were 
> stopped because of ( don't laugh) ground squirrels and birds Could ( not 
> proved any did ) get killed by the blades.

I do not know about this case, wind power has not been stopped in all of 
Washington and Oregon. One of the largest wind farms in the world is being 
constructed at the WA - OR border. If wind becomes widely used, lawsuits 
like this will be swept aside. Look at highways and other automotive 
infrastructure. You cannot stop it even when it manifestly does harm the 
environment.


>Item: No deaths were ever attributed to commercially regulated Nuclear 
>power . . .

None the U.S. People have died in Japan, England and of course in the USSR. 
But the fission industry was not stopped by lawsuits or anti-nuclear 
activists. They would never have slowed it down. It collapsed because it 
costs too much, and because the plants were badly designed and run. It 
cannot compete. The nuclear industry does not have to worry about liability 
-- at least not catastrophic liability. The Congress exempted it from 
accident liability above $7 billion under the Price-Anderson act. It is the 
only industry on earth exempt from liability, but even that unfair 
advantage was not enough to save it.


>         Item:  Airplanes, proven to be a saver per mile mode of 
> transportation than cars, are law suited out of affordability for the 
> average person.

That can't be true. Average people ride them constantly. Airplanes are 
everywhere. One of them almost fell on my head yesterday. (I shouldn't joke 
about that. It was the second fatal crash this month here at the airport.)


>Conclusion, Until the torte system is reformed, no commercially viable new 
>technology will be implemented on a large scale by the average person.

Then why is wind power presently being implemented so rapidly that in 20 
years, it will replace all competing systems?

I am sure there are problems & abuses with the torte system, but on the 
other hand competing lobbyists show that the annual total of money that 
changes hands in torte suits, and the lawyer fees, have been stable in 
inflation-adjusted terms for decades, and the average award is modest.

Corporations have a great deal of power in our society, and they are 
sometimes brutal. I am glad there is some recourse for individuals who have 
been wronged can. Highly distorted accounts have circulated about alleged 
abuses, such as the case in which a woman sued McDonald's because the 
coffee was hot. This discussion is off-topic, but in my opinion that suit 
was justified, and ultimately it was a good thing for everyone, including 
McDonald's. The woman was nearly killed. She was hospitalized in agony for 
a week, and she later required skin grafts and other treatment costing 
$160,000, and two years of disability at home. McDonald's offered an $800 
settlement. The corporation was severely scalding ~70 people per year, with 
procedures and equipment that violated common sense and food service 
regulations which all trained professionals should know. Eventually it 
would have killed someone, had this lawsuit not enforced a measure of 
sanity. See:

http://www.ups.edu/arches/archive/syllabushot%20java.htm
http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_mcdonalds.htm

The distortions in this story, and the unwarranted attacks by large 
institutions on an innocent private citizens remind me of the cold fusion 
story. Beware of jumping to conclusions!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 13:16:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24613;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:16:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:16:38 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Wind power clarifications
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:16:40 -0800
Message-ID: <000001c1b01c$bcdfc900$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207144323.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"Kv4yf1.0.V06.swkOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46011
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

That was the one. Construction was stopped due to "rare" ground squirrel
family, and the potential for birds to be harmed by the blades..



Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:38 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Wind power clarifications

Matthew Rogers wrote:

>         Because we have a tort system that encourages lawsuits from
> whacked out idiots looking for money and control of all our environment,
> wind power, nuclear or fusion will be lawsuited into expensive costs per
> KW, just because they can.

Maybe, but it hasn't happened yet. Wind power is growing very rapidly.
Also, idiots often lose lawsuits.


>         Item: Columbia Gorge ( Washington and Oregon ) wind farms were
> stopped because of ( don't laugh) ground squirrels and birds Could ( not
> proved any did ) get killed by the blades.

I do not know about this case, wind power has not been stopped in all of
Washington and Oregon. One of the largest wind farms in the world is being
constructed at the WA - OR border. If wind becomes widely used, lawsuits
like this will be swept aside. Look at highways and other automotive
infrastructure. You cannot stop it even when it manifestly does harm the
environment.


>Item: No deaths were ever attributed to commercially regulated Nuclear
>power . . .

None the U.S. People have died in Japan, England and of course in the USSR.
But the fission industry was not stopped by lawsuits or anti-nuclear
activists. They would never have slowed it down. It collapsed because it
costs too much, and because the plants were badly designed and run. It
cannot compete. The nuclear industry does not have to worry about liability
-- at least not catastrophic liability. The Congress exempted it from
accident liability above $7 billion under the Price-Anderson act. It is the
only industry on earth exempt from liability, but even that unfair
advantage was not enough to save it.


>         Item:  Airplanes, proven to be a saver per mile mode of
> transportation than cars, are law suited out of affordability for the
> average person.

That can't be true. Average people ride them constantly. Airplanes are
everywhere. One of them almost fell on my head yesterday. (I shouldn't joke
about that. It was the second fatal crash this month here at the airport.)


>Conclusion, Until the torte system is reformed, no commercially viable new
>technology will be implemented on a large scale by the average person.

Then why is wind power presently being implemented so rapidly that in 20
years, it will replace all competing systems?

I am sure there are problems & abuses with the torte system, but on the
other hand competing lobbyists show that the annual total of money that
changes hands in torte suits, and the lawyer fees, have been stable in
inflation-adjusted terms for decades, and the average award is modest.

Corporations have a great deal of power in our society, and they are
sometimes brutal. I am glad there is some recourse for individuals who have
been wronged can. Highly distorted accounts have circulated about alleged
abuses, such as the case in which a woman sued McDonald's because the
coffee was hot. This discussion is off-topic, but in my opinion that suit
was justified, and ultimately it was a good thing for everyone, including
McDonald's. The woman was nearly killed. She was hospitalized in agony for
a week, and she later required skin grafts and other treatment costing
$160,000, and two years of disability at home. McDonald's offered an $800
settlement. The corporation was severely scalding ~70 people per year, with
procedures and equipment that violated common sense and food service
regulations which all trained professionals should know. Eventually it
would have killed someone, had this lawsuit not enforced a measure of
sanity. See:

http://www.ups.edu/arches/archive/syllabushot%20java.htm
http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_mcdonalds.htm

The distortions in this story, and the unwarranted attacks by large
institutions on an innocent private citizens remind me of the cold fusion
story. Beware of jumping to conclusions!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 13:19:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23735;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:14:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:14:48 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:14:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Wind power clarifications
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207144323.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020207130745.27134A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"6wbUG2.0.lo5.7vkOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46010
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Maybe, but it hasn't happened yet. Wind power is growing very rapidly. 
> Also, idiots often lose lawsuits.

As long as idots sit on juries, and idiots who think that law suits are
some sort of game show jackpot thing, then idiots will win silly lawsuits.
(The whole "Hot coffee is hot" warning thing with multimillion dollar
payouts...)

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/28921.pdf
http://www.eren.doe.gov/wind/
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpowerfront.shtml

When I get laid off, I'm going to buy 15 acres in some windy area and live
off grid, and raise rabbits and chickens. I'll use windpower until I build
my cold fusion reactor. Then I'll build that Woodward impulse drive I've
always wanted and get off this rock before the big hate starts. It won't
be long before some third world religious radical decides the way to get
in good with his god is to spread small pox to kill Americans. 

Right now, my neighbors are ready to lynch me over my shaggy, dandilion
filled lawn. They would go ape if I put up a home made wind tower or that
iron foundry I'm going to build. I don't think that wind power would be
too popular in urban areas. 

Rats. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 15:27:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26236;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:23:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:23:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207180902.00b099a8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:23:11 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Wind power clarifications
In-Reply-To: <000001c1b01c$bcdfc900$0201a8c0 kitty>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207144323.03a436a8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"b78Tn1.0.nP6.RnmOy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46012
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Matthew Rogers wrote:

>That was the one. Construction was stopped due to "rare" ground squirrel 
>family, and the potential for birds to be harmed by the blades..

That's the one what? The Stateline Wind project I referred to has not been 
stopped. It is coming along fine. Here are photos of the first towers, 
already erected last year:

http://www.statelinewind.com/camera.html

http://www.rnp.org/htmls/construct.htm

In September 2001 the city of Seattle announced it is negotiating the 
largest purchase of wind energy in history from Stateline.

Where are you getting the information that the project has been stopped? 
There are many articles in the press about this, and photographs show 
dozens of turbines have already been erected and are in operation. I cannot 
find a single article that says this or any other project has been delayed 
because of squirrels. I suggest you double check your sources. Many urban 
myths circulate.

I know nothing about ground squirrel habitats, but the idea that modern 
wind turbines hurt a significant number of birds was dismissed years ago by 
all experts. That claim would be dismissed in any court. Wind turbine built 
around 1980 were close to the ground and they turned rapidly, so they may 
have hurt some birds.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 15:35:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02162;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:32:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:32:49 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020207182548.00a6fd90 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:33:03 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Stateline on line
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"iOx_d2.0.gX.WwmOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46013
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Matthew Rogers apparently thinks the Stateline wind project has been 
stopped because of environmentalist concerns about birds and squirrels. 
Perhaps he has mixed it up with some other project. The Stateline project 
is on time, on line, and as of December was already rated at 264 MW. See:

http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2001/12/15/build/energy/windbpa.php?nnn=6

At present it is the largest wind farm in the world, but I expected it will 
soon be eclipsed by others. 264 MW is a SERIOUS amount of power, rivaling 
the scale of nuclear plants.

These farms are built remarkably quickly. That is good. It does not tie up 
capital for long periods. Also, some of the turbines in the farm can begin 
generating revenue even before the project is finished. A gas or nuclear 
power plant takes much longer to build and it produces no revenue until it 
is finished.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 15:51:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11195;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:50:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:50:01 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b888c29ea473 [12.21.209.27]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:52:30 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Test - My ISP is messed up?
Resent-Message-ID: <"gOzLz.0.dk2.eAnOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46014
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Various posts of mine have not come back from vortex.  It appears from
escribe that it they did not make it to vortex and that I have also not
received recent posts that others have made.  My posts do not bounce, so
that precludes having been unsubscribed.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 16:01:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16259;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:58:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:58:54 -0800
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:58:43 +0000
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Test - My ISP is messed up?
Message-ID: <20020207235843.F46984 genius.tao.org.uk>
Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>,
	vortex-l eskimo.com
References: <v01530500b888c29ea473 [12.21.209.27]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4f28nU6agdXSinmL"
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b888c29ea473 [12.21.209.27]>; from hheffner@mtaonline.net on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:52:30PM -0900
Resent-Message-ID: <"wZKln.0.lz3.-InOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46015
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--4f28nU6agdXSinmL
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 02:52:30PM -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
> Various posts of mine have not come back from vortex.  It appears from
> escribe that it they did not make it to vortex and that I have also not
> received recent posts that others have made.  My posts do not bounce, so
> that precludes having been unsubscribed.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Horace Heffner         =20

Hi Horace,

You made it to me via vortex-l.

Joe

--4f28nU6agdXSinmL
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAjxjFLMACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbxdACeL44zovnokHrgRowJdIrDWqTk
340AoNPggLZdrgV+Qlp0IaU0bfJdx5/x
=SN4U
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--4f28nU6agdXSinmL--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 23:16:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA19842;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:13:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:13:39 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100301b889261e086f [4.46.76.99]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:11:54 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Joseph Newman
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"XneeM2.0.xr4.YgtOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46016
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

He's back! Joe will be giving demonstrations of a solar powered 
version of his motor, Feb 11 through Feb 17 10 AM till 2 PM  Phoenix 
AZ at the Sports Authority Plaza. The thing that has to be factored 
in to any energy balance with a machine utilizing a solar panel is 
that there appears to be an invisible energy flow out of the sun that 
goes right through the planet. It's all explained in Davson's book.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  7 23:38:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27422;
	Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:36:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:36:17 -0800
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Joseph Newman
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 02:46:53 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEFNDBAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <a05100301b889261e086f [4.46.76.99]>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"9guXd.0.Mi6.n_tOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46017
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hey Thomas.

Maybe ole Joe should call the mystery particles that stream
out of the sun and pass right through the earth

...New-trinos

(chuckle)

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 2:12 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Joseph Newman


He's back! Joe will be giving demonstrations of a solar powered 
version of his motor, Feb 11 through Feb 17 10 AM till 2 PM  Phoenix 
AZ at the Sports Authority Plaza. The thing that has to be factored 
in to any energy balance with a machine utilizing a solar panel is 
that there appears to be an invisible energy flow out of the sun that 
goes right through the planet. It's all explained in Davson's book.
-- 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 05:06:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA19651;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:03:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:03:48 -0800
Message-ID: <004701c1b098$8308e3c0$f68f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Fw: Antigravity Experiment
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:02:37 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"aZ2aX.0.uo4.qoyOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46018
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Antigravity Experiment
>
> The String-Circle Quark Model Suggests that the
> Gravitational Field may be a 1/R^2 Electrostatic Force.
>
> The Model says that the ratio of the Electrostatic Force kq^2/R^2, (Fes) to the
Gravitational
> Force (Fg) at unit separation is due to intrinsic Relativistic Time-Dilation
(Gamma):
>
> For a String-Circle Quark, Gamma = (Fes/Fg)^1/2
>
> Gamma = (2.304E-28/2.0E-65)^1/2 = 3.34E18
>
> Thus, due to the inner workings of the Displacement >Current in a particle there is
a
> Time-Dilated Charge (q') introduced separate from the >Relativistically Invariant
> Charge, 1.6E-19 Coulombs that are neutralized by the >charge make-up of the nucleus
and it's external electrons.
>
> I.E., q' = q/Gamma = 1.6E-19/3.34E18 = 4.8E-38 >Coulombs, for each String-Circle
Quark making up the >nucleus.
>
> Since the mass of String-Circle Quark is 5.53E-28 Kg, results in a Time-Dilated
Charge/Mass Ratio (q'/m):
>
> 4.8E-38/5.53E-28 = 8.612E-11 Coulombs/Kg
>
> Thus for an Electrostatic Gravity Force on a 1.0 Kg mass at the Earth's Surface:
>
> Fg = 1/4(pi)eo * (8.612E-11)^2*5.98E24/(6.38E6)^2 = 9.8 nt.
> or 1/4(pi)eo(8.612E-11)^2 = 6.67E-11 the gravitational constant G.   eo is the
permittivity of space, 8.85E-12 Farad/Meter.
>
> It appears that in order to create an Antigravity Force, >one might exploit the
> Displacement Current effect in a Capacitor ( Id) = >C*dV/dt or the Displacement
Current
> Density (Jd) = C*dE/dt. Where E is the field intensity >between the capacitor plates
in Volts/Meter.
>
> This can be done by charging a flat plate or concentric >cylinder capacitor through
a resistor at a slow rate from a >high voltage D.C. power supply until a spark gap or
>thyratron rapidly discharges the capacitor to make dt as >small as practical.
> IOW, a form of Relaxation Oscillator.
>
> In this manner there should be a "net" synthesized charge >that can create an
Antigravity Force.
>
> Note that reported "UFOs" have "three lights that go from a dull red when the UFO is
> hovering, to a bright white when it takes off".  With three capacitors around the
> perimeter and three discharge devices, one can speculate >that this arrangement is
used for lift and maneuvering.
>
> Fred
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 05:17:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA22739;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:15:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:15:20 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <10.19a3a799.29952945 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:14:45 EST
Subject: Joseph Newman Assistance
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120
Resent-Message-ID: <"X5p-92.0.DZ5.dzyOy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46019
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortex,

If anyone happens to make it to his demo, what they see will probably really 
work, but just not as good as it should because Newman touched it.  He has 
been issued a cease and desist order because he is using my patented 
commutator to run the motor Norm Biss was so kind to build for Newman - Free 
of charge at the Eire motor company. 

Jed should pop for the plane tickets and he and Eugene investigate.   

The sooner Newman starts making money - the sooner I can sue him for it.  
Anyone providing critical evidence in that upcoming suit shall be rewarded.

CA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 13:26:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05236;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:23:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:23:54 -0800
Message-ID: <3C644237.9103F531 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:25:11 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 08, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wdHId.0.fH1.f74Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46020
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Feb 08, 2002
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:40:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 8 Feb 02   Washington, DC

1. SCIENCE BUDGET: IT'S A LONG, LONG TIME FROM NOW TO DECEMBER. 
That's when Congress usually finishes appropriations bills that
were due the first of October.  But tempers grow short when you
reach September.  The President's request is just the starting
point for a debate that runs most of the year.  On Monday, policy
wonks were running all over Washington to budget briefings at the
agencies.  It's dull, but take a No-Doz.  Here's what they found: 
The White House puffed that the FY '03 budget marks the first
time any President has asked for more than $100 billion for R&D. 
Alas, the 8%, $8.6 billion increase is highly targeted.  Strip
away NIH and DOD, and the rest of R&D is 0.5% in the hole.  DOE
Science did well to get a 0% increase.  Research at NSF would
increase 3.5%, but there wasn't much portfolio balance: biology
would go up 3.4%, while the physical sciences would drop by 1.3%. 
   
2. MICRO-NUKES: THE EXPLOSIVE POWER OF THE SOUL OF A WORM.  I'm
indebted to James Randi for calling my attention to an article in
the Fall 2001 issue of Frontier Perspectives.  When seventy grams
of live "California worms" in a sealed test tube were killed by
formaldehyde, the weight of the worms decreased 93.6 micrograms. 
Since matter could not have escaped from the sealed tube, the
author says the mass must have been lost in the form of energy. 
He identifies this energy as the vital life force (in traditional
Chinese medicine it's "Qi," in Ayurvedic medicine it's "Prana.") 
Randi wondered if a mushroom cloud formed.  In fact, the energy
equivalent is two gigacalories.  In nuclear weapons terminology,
that would be two tons of TNT.  So when a person dies in a crowd,
why isn't there a gruesome chain reaction of exploding humans?  
Can it be that we have far smaller souls than California worms?

3. THE GREAT SPAM SCAM: A "NEW GROUNDBREAKING SOURCE OF ENERGY." 
You probably got the same SPAM this week, announcing discovery of
an "unlimited source of energy," having something to do with
"ball lightning."  I don't know what the big deal is: new sources
of "infinite energy" are announced almost daily, and "ball
lightning" is invoked about as often as "zero point energy" or
"cold fusion."  One thing is new; the most frequent warning sign
of voodoo science is that claims are pitched directly to the
media (WN 25 Jan 02).  Chukanov Quantum Energy, has taken a
different road, e-mailing their pitch to thousands of scientists.

4. NASA GOES NUCLEAR: ANNOUNCED BY O'KEEFE AT BUDGET BRIEFING. 
Just three years ago, there was intense opposition to the Cassini
mission because it used radioisotope thermoelectric generators(WN
19 Feb 99).  NASA's crazy "Breakthrough Propulsion" program was
initially created to explore alternatives to nuclear energy.  The
revival of the nuclear option at NASA is a measure of softening
public attitudes toward things nuclear in the wake of 9/11.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 13:30:37 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07716;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:29:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:29:43 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208161952.03a6b1f0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:29:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Joseph Newman Assistance
In-Reply-To: <10.19a3a799.29952945 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"pRZKU.0.Uu1.6D4Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46021
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

>The sooner Newman starts making money - the sooner I can sue him for it.

That is a strange way to do business. Why wait for a rival to succeed? Why 
are you passively waiting for him to hurt you? If you are capable of making 
a similar device, you should do so immediately and sell it yourself. If you 
succeed, you might drive Newman out of business before he makes any money, 
and save yourself the trouble of suing him. Or, should it be necessary to 
sue him after all, your sales will give you give you credibility and 
funding to pay the lawyer. The worst thing to do is sit by and let your 
rival take the initiative and dictate your moves.

I get the impression that people who invent these controversial o-u devices 
spend more energy and time fighting pretend legal battles and ego wars with 
rivals than they do actually experimenting, developing products or 
conducting business. If one of these devices actually did exist, any 
businessman could make an instant success selling it. That is one of the 
reasons I doubt they do exist. It is not proof, but it is strong 
circumstantial evidence.


>Anyone providing critical evidence in that upcoming suit shall be rewarded.

No sane judge would allow a lawsuit of this nature to proceed! The product 
-- the object of the dispute -- does not exist.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 15:03:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03111;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:00:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:00:12 -0800
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:53:10 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Electron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <005201c1b0f3$6335db60$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b884e641e71c [12.21.208.139]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"07BDl1.0._l.xX5Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46022
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Solitons are stable solitary waves that behave more like particles than waves.
They can appear in many unusual circumstances. The following train of thought is
paraphrased from ideas on another forum and repositioned out of the original
context. The posters on the HSG forum were George Corwin and Greg Grieco ...with
apologies for taking their postings out of their intended context.

In regard to CANR reactions, perhaps the explanation can add some insight into a
possible mechanism that could be relevant in some CF experiments (there are
likely to be several mechanisms at work in cold fusion phenomena).

Consider a Palladium electrode whose crystal lattice is approaching full
loading. There is a repeating fcc crystal structure of relatively immobile Pd
atoms intertwined with relatively mobile D atoms in a ratio that is approaching
1:1 ; but because this system is operating at a modest temperature, there is an
active flux of D atoms coursing through the Pd matrix and the possibility that
when an "opening" occurs, usually near the surface of the electrode, that three
conduction band electrons from adjoining Pd atoms might act together as a
soliton, essentially a standing electron wave-particle with a finite boundary
defined by the interatomic spacing in a vacant palladium lattice location. It
would seem that within Maxwell's equations up to three electrons, if in phase
and of equal energy with vectors orthogonal to one another, could interact in
this fashion for an indeterminate time frame. Almost as soon as the soliton
forms however, deuterium atoms from adjoining interatomic spaces would be highly
attracted to the soliton wave-particle because of its large opposite charge.

We know from Wei and Zunger,   J. Fusion Energy 9 (1990) 367. "Instability of
diatomic deuterium in fcc palladium" that D2 molecules do not form in the
lattice, being very unstable, and d-d distance in the lattice is actually much
greater even than in D2 gas. Therefore, explanations of cold fusion do not lie
in diatomic deuterium molecules but elsewhere...

... perhaps that elsewhere involves a situation where two or more D atoms in the
lattice, separated by an electron soliton, are coaxed out of their
semi-stability and accelerated towards the soliton which serves to focus the
deuterons into a convergence zone...

This mechanism expands on but is somewhat consistent with Horace Heffner's
recent post electron catalyzed fusion.

regards,

Jones Beene




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 16:20:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18069;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:17:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:17:40 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <a3.2361eb64.2995c47d aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:17:01 EST
Subject: Re: Joseph Newman Assistance
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124
Resent-Message-ID: <"FaVLG.0.EQ4.Zg6Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46023
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed,

What does not exist? My device or your logic. To see my patent go to my web 
site and to see the device, the link is right under the patent link. 

As for everything else you said - you really should get more rest. Law suits, 
business and non existent technology - what is the point of carrying on like 
this Jed.

Best Regards,
Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 16:32:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30036;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:31:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:31:33 -0800
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:24:33 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Electron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <006401c1b100$27b87180$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b884e641e71c [12.21.208.139]>
 <005201c1b0f3$6335db60$8837fea9 computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"l6NND2.0.5L7.bt6Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46024
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Addendum to previous post:

> ... perhaps that elsewhere involves a situation where two or more D atoms in
the
> lattice, separated by an electron soliton, are coaxed out of their
> semi-stability and accelerated towards the soliton which serves to focus the
> deuterons into a convergence zone...

Alternatively, there is a fair amount of recent research on the existence of a
three-deuteron muonic molecule (3d 2e^- \mu^-). This might have relevance to the
possibility that a two or three wave solitron can act in essentially the same
fashion.

This would be especially relevant if indeed three deuteron fusion is eventually
shown to favor 4He production, because 4He is occassionally found in CF ash, but
rarely is 3He.




http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/nucl-th/9711056
Existence and transitions properties of three-deuteron muonic molecule
 (3d 2e^- \mu^-)

We calculated the energy and the size of the three-deuteron muonic molecule
(3d 2e^- \mu^-) = D_3 \mu. It turns out that this system possesses two
equilibrium positions, one at distances typical for muonic molecules and a
second one at the usual molecular size. We show, moreover, that the fusion
probability of the three deuterons is considerably enhanced due to the
existence of a ^6Li^* threshold resonance. Our estimates indicate that this
probability is considerably higher than the decay rate of the competing Auger
transition.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 17:18:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21916;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:16:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 17:16:26 -0800
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:09:28 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <007601c1b106$6ccd5280$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b884e641e71c [12.21.208.139]>
 <005201c1b0f3$6335db60$8837fea9 computer>
 <006401c1b100$27b87180$8837fea9 computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"KVE6J.0.MM5.fX7Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46025
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

OK. As there were some other typos in previous posts, and some vortexians are
getting pretty picky about them, so here is a corrected version of the
speculation:

Consider a Palladium electrode whose crystal lattice is approaching full
loading. There is a repeating crystal structure of relatively immobile Pd atoms
intertwined with relatively mobile deuterons in a ratio that is approaching 1:1.
When this system is operating at a modest temperature, there is a constant flux
of deuterons through the Pd matrix, but there is always the possibility that
gaps exist in the matrix.

When such an "opening" does occur, usually near the surface of the electrode,
then it is possible that two or three conduction band electrons from adjoining
Pd atoms can resonantly come together in phase as a soliton, essentially a
standing electron wave-particle with a finite boundary defined by the
interatomic spacing of the palladium lattice location. A large surplus of free
electrons would seem to favor this circumstance. Within Maxwell's equations up
to three electrons, if in phase and of equal energy with vectors orthogonal to
one another, could interact in this fashion for an indeterminate time frame.

Almost as soon as the soliton forms, however, deuterium ions from adjoining
interatomic spaces would be attracted to the soliton wave-particle because of
its large opposite charge and could form a "virtual molecule," analogous to the
three-deuteron muonic molecule (3d 2e^- \mu^).

This speculation would be especially relevant if three-deuteron-fusion, an
active area of research, is eventually shown to favor 4He production, because
4He is occassionally found in CF ash, but rarely is 3He. The main problem with
this proposed mechansism, however, is that the energetic 4He should leave
evidence in the form of secondary gammas. No adequate rationale for their
absence now exists.

Regards,

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 19:04:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10260;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:02:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:02:09 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b88a362f4d45 [12.21.208.36]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:04:47 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
Resent-Message-ID: <"PgQGo.0.EW2.n49Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46026
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:09 PM 2/8/2, Jones Beene wrote:
>The main problem with
>this proposed mechansism, however, is that the energetic 4He should leave
>evidence in the form of secondary gammas. No adequate rationale for their
>absence now exists.


One possible explanation is that the energy is absorbed from the nucleii
immediately prior to or during their fusion, by the C(old) catalytic
electron(s), or alternatively, that only a small amount of potential energy
is gained by the fusion.  Nuclei are very hot.  This is necessarily so if
the Heisenberg principle is to be observed by them, because the constituant
particles are extremely confined within the nucleus.  The energy to support
the Heisenberg uncertainty comes from the zero point field.  The fact that
the zero point field drives variation in nuclear heat may in fact help
provide the uncertainty regarding nucleus decay times, by adding a random
kinetic energy to a basline kinetic energy imparted to the nucleus at
formation time.

If an electron "falls into" a single nucleus for electron capture, it gains
momentum, and that momentum is at least momentarily added to the nucleus.
However, when an electron acts catalytically to bring together two nucleii,
its momentum relative to the final product nucleus is nearly zero
throughout the process.  It is very cold.  From the frame of reference of
the catalytic electron, the two nuclei fall "into it" from opposite
directions.  The two nucleii do not gain the full momentum of a sigle
charge falling into another, because the electron only partially shields
the repulsive nature of the paired approaching nucleii.  As a result, the
nucleus formed by catalysis has a low kinetic energy.  The reduction in
nuclear heat eliminates the need for abrupt radiation, leaving a partially
excited nucleus, and perhaps opens a pathway for a prolonged, gradual,
quantized, exchange of momenta with other nucleii and electrons in the
vicinity.  Direct inter-nucleus energy exchange I believe was only recently
demonstrated to be a real phenomenon.

Alternatively, we can see the final nucleus has an extra electron.  Had the
electron been absorbed in a typical fall into the nulceus, we would expect
it to have the kinetic energy to escape (barring a weak reaction).
However, it did not gain that kinetic energy, so cannot escape without
absorbing that energy from the new nucleus, i.e from the zero point field,
or from energy otherwise released as gammas.  Had the nucleii been brought
together by collision, the potential energy of their repulsive fields would
be available to bring about fission, or to manifest in a gamma release.
However, there is an extra electron in the newly catalysed nucleus, so the
net potential energy available from the joined charge is zero.  For a
while, at least, this nucleus may appear to be a H4 nucleus, until a beta
can be released  This explains why the normal fusion branching ratios are
not observed in catalysed fusion and why an appropriate amount of He3 is
not created.

This model explains the lack of gammas only in two nucleus catalysis, but
could be extended to include three nucleus catalysis provided the initial
momenta all lay in approximately a straight line and the bodies in proper
order.  Such a catalysis requires three nucleii and two electrons, which is
not a likely circumstance unless the alignment of lattice interstitial
spaces is involved.  I don't know that general 3D three nucleus fusion
catalysis is either feasible or infeasible.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 19:51:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31500;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:49:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:49:17 -0800
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:42:19 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00a301c1b11b$c741dbe0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530502b88a362f4d45 [12.21.208.36]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"_GAWQ1.0.6i7.zm9Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46027
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> >The main problem with this proposed mechansism, however, is that the
energetic 4He should leave evidence in the form of secondary gammas. No adequate
rationale for their absence now exists.

> One possible explanation is that ....only a small amount of potential energy
is gained by the fusion...

As has been the case throughout the history of high energy physics, when it come
to the bottom line the books are usually balanced by invoking the neutrino. Now
I'm not saying that this particular accounting practice is wrong, but it is
certainly convenient!

So, in the spirit of Enron, let's conduct a little survey and try to discover
what we can get away with ...oops I mean what is the largest amount of energy
that has seen said to "disappear" via the neutrino. I'll open the bidding with
the 10MeV that disappears from the fission fragments during the splitting of
235U. Can you up the ante?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 20:21:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10574;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:19:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:19:21 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20020208231224.01f1db60 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:16:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
In-Reply-To: <007601c1b106$6ccd5280$8837fea9 computer>
References: <v01530500b884e641e71c [12.21.208.139]>
 <005201c1b0f3$6335db60$8837fea9 computer>
 <006401c1b100$27b87180$8837fea9 computer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"-1his.0.0b2.3DAPy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46028
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:09 PM 2/8/2002 -0800, J Beene wrote:
>.....
>This speculation would be especially relevant if three-deuteron-fusion, an
>active area of research, is eventually shown to favor 4He production, because
>4He is occassionally found in CF ash, but rarely is 3He. The main problem with
>this proposed mechansism, however, is that the energetic 4He should leave
>evidence in the form of secondary gammas. No adequate rationale for their
>absence now exists.


     There is  clear explanation for the absence of ionizing penetrating
radiation for these near-room temperature reactions.
   [Swartz, M, G. Verner,  "Bremsstrahlung in Hot and Cold
              Fusion", J New Energy, 3, 4, 90-101 (1999)]
    other relevant refs at  http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html

      There never was a "graduate student problem", just a failure
of the pathologic skeptics to examine the equations and physics.


     As for the comment about 3He, it is stated but unproven, since
few have looked for it.

     Dr. Mitchell Swartz







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 20:33:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14350;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:30:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:30:55 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20020208232357.01f265b0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:28:40 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice -
  add'l refs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"Dz2AU1.0.8W3._NAPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46029
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 05:09 PM 2/8/2002 -0800,

   Expanding on the previous post, there may some serious CF investigators
who are looking for information on these reactions.

   In addition to understanding why there is an absence of ionizing penetrating
radiation for these near-room temperature reactions.
   [Swartz, M, G. Verner,  "Bremsstrahlung in Hot and Cold
              Fusion", J New Energy, 3, 4, 90-101 (1999)]

   This reference explains some of the coupling to the lattice, and the absence
of neutrons.   "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids",
Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997))


   Discussing the impact of the applied electric field intensity
using a continuum approach, and the resultant science and engineering.
   Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of
Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal",
Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300; Swartz, M., 1994.
"Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode"
Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77).
"Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium",
Fusion Technology, 32. 126-130 (1997), Swartz. M., 1997.

    Discussing the optimal operating point characteristics which appear
to control all of these cold fusion phenomena studied to date.
  Swartz, M, 1998, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics
of Nickel Light Water Experiments", "Proceedings of ICCF-7".
Swartz, M, 1998, Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance
  Using p-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions
of the American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn 1998
Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85.
Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal
Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes".
IECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009; Swartz. M., 1998).

   Hope that helps those interested.

     Dr. Mitchell Swartz






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 22:08:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20104;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:05:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:05:29 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20020209010027.01f265b0 pop.theworld.com>
X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 01:03:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Cold Fusion Times   v9-1
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"NxecT1.0.2w4.fmBPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46030
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



   The new issue of the Cold Fusion Times (vol 9, 1) is out.

   The cover page is at   http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev91.html

   [ other info  at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ]

   There continues to be an impressive amount of effort, R&D in this
field consistent with conventional physics and material science.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  8 22:20:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA25647;
	Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:20:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:20:04 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:22:59 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
Resent-Message-ID: <"tIb-l.0.UG6.J-BPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46031
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 4:24 PM 2/8/2, Jones Beene wrote:
> ... because 4He is occassionally found in CF ash, but
>rarely is 3He.


At 11:16 PM 2/8/2, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>     As for the comment about 3He, it is stated but unproven, since
>few have looked for it.
>
>     Dr. Mitchell Swartz


Another mystery is the lack of tritium, as well as the detectablity of ANY
helium.  The branching ratios for D + D:

D+D   -> T (1.01 MeV) + p (3.02 MeV) (50%)
      -> He3 (0.82 MeV) + n (2.45 MeV) (50%)
      -> He4 + about 20 MeV of gamma rays (about 0.0001%)

Helium should be pretty much out of the picture all together.


At 7:42 PM 2/8/2, Jones Beene wrote:

>So, in the spirit of Enron, let's conduct a little survey and try to discover
>what we can get away with ...oops I mean what is the largest amount of energy
>that has seen said to "disappear" via the neutrino. I'll open the bidding with
>the 10MeV that disappears from the fission fragments during the splitting of
>235U. Can you up the ante?
>
>Jones


Well, I'll up your single neutrino to a pair of 10 MeV neutrinos.  The
reaction D + D -> He4 doesn't need a neutrino, so a neutrino-anti-neutrino
pair should work out OK.  Perhaps the presence of the catalysing electron
permits the pair creation?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 07:32:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30821;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:31:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:31:24 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b88ae345f7fb [12.21.208.110]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 06:34:07 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA30796
Resent-Message-ID: <"2sFvF2.0.QX7.B3KPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46032
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

                     THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS

                      by Horace Heffner  12/30/1996

STATEMENT OF HYPOTHESIS AND BACKGROUND ASSUMPTIONS

The Atomic Expansion Hypothesis (AEH) is the idea that atomic expansion
(AE), the increase in the size of an ionized atom or molecule, like H+,
which occurs when it takes on an orbital electron, can perform work on the
surroundings of the ion, and that the amount of energy released can be
greater than the initial ionization energy, provided the ion is in a
sufficiently confined space when the expansion occurs.  This is an idea
that leads to various possible experiments and, if correct, may provide a
basis for the design of over unity devices.  If correct, the AEH also
explains various previously observed results.

This hypothesis is another expression among many of the idea that the
excess heat from cold fusion devices does not come from fusion, or
transmutation, but from extraction of energy from the zero point energy
(ZPE) sea.  This is not to say that transmutation or conventional fusion
does not occur in cold fusion experiments, only that the heat producing
source of cold fusion (CF) devices is primarily ZPE.  It is an assumption
of this hypothesis that ZP energy is what keeps atoms from collapsing and
is part of the glue that holds atoms together without radiation. There have
been various publications referencing ZPE, especially by Dr. H. E. Puthoff
[1 - 6]

Atoms, more particularly orbitals, though quantized in energy, can be
deformed, both in shape and electron probability distribution.  These
deformations can occur as a result of external stress on the orbitals due
to collisions or pressure, or because of electromagnetic fields.  The
deformations are capable of storing energy, converting kinetic energy into
potential energy, and back.  With the exception of the occasional resulting
photon emissions, such collisions are perfectly elastic, which is why the
gas laws and thermodynamics work so well.  It is true that collision and
pressure deformations of orbitals are also electromagnetic in origin, but
differ from purly field generated deformations in that the
collision/deformation caused fields (or field distortions) are highly
localized and mostly cancel at a distance, and in the fact that the field
distortions convert kinetic energy into potential energy at a high energy
density.

HOW MUCH ENERGY AND POWER IS AVAILABLE FROM ZPE?

John Wheeler and Richard Feynman, when first examining the possibility of
vacuum energy, calculated that there is enough energy in the vacuum of a
light bulb to boil all the seas.  The problem is designing a mechanism to
effectively extract this energy.  The energy available is dependent upon
the method used to extract it, be that polarization of the vacuum, the
Casimir Effect, etc.  The atomic expansion method depends upon the amount
of orbital deformation achievable per transaction, and the transaction
repeat rate per volume achievable.  It does appear the two goals, high
repeat rate, and high confinement, typically oppose each other.

The ZP energy fills every vacuum.  If there is not a cutoff frequency, that
energy is infinite.  Assuming a cutoff frequency of near the Plank
frequency (wavelength) of about 10^-33 cm, the energy density is on the
order of 10^94 g/cm^3.  Multiply by c^2 and you have an enormous energy
density - which does not have to remain constant, but can replenish itself
from the ZPE sea if tapped.

The energy density rho(w) is characterized by H. E. Puthoff (Ref. 7) by:

rho(w) dw = [w^2/pi^2*c^3]/[hw/2] dw
          = (hw^3) / (2*pi^2*c^3) dw joules/m^3

Rearranging we have:

rho(w) dw = (h/(2*pi^2*c^3)) w^3 dw joules/m^3

rho(w) dw = K w^3 dw, where K = (h/(2*pi^2*c^3)) joules/m^3


Integrating over w=0 to w=B to get cumulative energy density f(B) to cutoff
frequency B:

f(B) = K/4 B^4

This indicates that the total energy density of the vacuum (though not
constant if tapped) is proportional to the fourth power of the cutoff
frequency being tapped.  The big problem is figuring out how to tap this
energy.  If a method of tapping ZPE energy is found, conservation of energy
is not violated, the second law of thermodynnamics is violated, as the
replacement energy ultimately flows from elsewhere in the universe.

Of interest is that most of the ZP energy is in the top frequencies of the
ZP spectrum tapped.  The bottom 98 percent of the frequency distribution
tapped contains (.98)^4 or 92 percent of the energy.  The top two percent
contains about 8 percent of the energy.  This implies it is best to utilize
the smallest possible wavelengths in a ZPE extracting mechanism, and
therefore, most likely, the smallest possible structures.  This leaves
atomic structures as the most likely regime to get good results.

Further evaluating f(B) for dimensionless frequency B (in Hz) we get:

f(B) = [1.556 x 10^-61 joules/m^3] B^4

Now, considering radiation on an atomic scale, i.e. wavelength of 1
angstrom, or 10^-10 m, we get B ~ [3 x 10^17 Hz.] so:

f(B) = [1.556 x 10^-61 joules/m^3] [3 x 10^17 Hz.]^4

f(B) = 1.26 x 10^9 joules/m^3

f(B) = 1260 joules/cm^3

If only the top 2 percent of the accessible ZPE frequency band is utilized,
we get an energy density of about 1260/8 ~ 100 joules per cm^3.

Now, to consider power tapping capabilities, and some pretty big guesses.
Given the extreme ZPE energy density at high frequencies, it is reasonable
to assume that the tapped energy, i.e. energy removed from the imaginary
cm^3 can be replaced at nearly the speed of light, or about 10^-10 second
to replenish the cm^3.  Given a collection of atomic sized devices located
in the cm^3, we could use the macro size of 1 cm instead of 1 angstrom as
the distance from which the replenishing energy must come, even though the
higher ZPE wavelengths within the angstrom dimension micro structure volume
could resupply the volume initially, with the minor resulting deficit at
all ZPE frequencies spreading like a wave throughout the universe.  This
conservative choice gives an event cycle rate maximum of 10^10 event cycles
per second, each cycle taking at most some fraction of the 100 joules
residing in the imaginary cm^3.  If we can somehow extract 1/10,000 the ZPE
energy in the cm^3, we would be able to extract 10^5 joules / cm^3 / sec.,
or 10,000 W/cm^3.  If there are only 1 out of 10,000 sites active per
cycle, and we could  extract 1/10,000 the ZPE energy in each site per
cycle, we would get 1 W/cm^3.

However, since we are using such a small part of the ZPE spectrum,
replenishment might be able to happen from the locality as fast as 10^-20
second per cell, so would not be a practical limitation in any sense.  Such
a local replenishment would depend upon the existance of a mechanism for
the energy of higher ZPE frequencies being converted to and replenishing
the frequency band being tapped.  The potential energy release is unlimited
from any reasonable standpoint.  The real limitations are event density and
event repetition rate, and these are strictly design parameters that depend
upon the ingenuity of the designer and choice of medium.

This is not to say that finding a method of extracting any net energy is
easy.  Though the ZPE sea abounds, it is very difficult to extract the
energy from it.  This is possibly the main value to the AE concept.  If
there is any truth to the idea that ZPE provides the support for orbitals,
then ZPE does interact with our environment in a big way continuously.
Massive energy exchanges occur in springs, sonic devices, etc., simply from
orbital deformation. Enormous forces can be involved and enormous energies,
even in the compression and expansion of relatively cold systems, like
metal lattices.  The intended method of extracting energy from the massive
ZPE sea is to cause orbital expansion to occur in a confined space, thus
creating extreme orbital deformation without supplying the deforming energy
to the process.  This is like manufacturing watch springs that are already
wound.

A PROPOSED MECHANISM FOR PRODUCING HEAT IN A METAL LATTICE

1)  An ion, e.g. H+ or He++, is injected into a metal lattice.  This can be
accomplished via high energy ion acceleration or via electrolysis.

2) As the ion comes to a halt in the lattice, any kinetic energy initially
imparted to the ion is given up to the lattice.

3)  The ion takes up an electron from an adjacent atom or conduction band.
If from an adjacent atom, that atom may momentarily shrink (or lose a bond
and expand), but will quickly return to size by obtaining an electron from
a conduction band.  The net result is an electron from the locality is
taken up by the ion.

4)  An orbital is formed about the ion, increasing the size of the ion.

5)  As the electron occupies the orbital, quantized EM energy (e.g. a
photon), equivalent to the original ionization energy, is released -
heating the local environment.

6)  As the small ion and acquired electron(s) expands from nuclear
dimensions to atomic dimensions, at some point force is applied in all
directions to the lattice provided the interstitial sites do not
accommodate the size of the de-ionized product.  Further expansion of the
de-ionized product to it's final size results in work being performed on
the lattice.  The energy thus produced has no antecedent. It is derived
solely from the force that keeps atoms from collapsing.  However, unlike a
collision, no initial compressive kinetic energy was supplied.  The energy
is supplied from the ZPE sea.



ENERGY DERIVED FROM ATOMIC EXPANSION IN LIQUID OR GAS PHASES

Energy might be similarly obtained in a gas or liquid phase, though not
with the efficiency of a metal lattice.  A conducting liquid, like mercury,
would behave similarly to the metal lattice, but the force resisting the AE
would be almost entirely inertial, thus much smaller than the resisting
force of a molecular bond.  The force resisting the AE would still be
exerted over a slightly sub-atomic distance, so the excess energy produced
per atomic expansion would almost entirely be proportional to the AE
resisting force.

Similar arguments can be made for the collision of an ion with a non-ion in
a gas.  The main difference here is the lack of an electron source to bring
the net charge to zero, and thus the cost of extracting the electron from
the neutral atom to fill the ion's orbital.  A negative balance in
ionization potentials (e.g. H+ hits He)  must be overcome using the kinetic
energy of the collision.

Similar arguments can also be made for gas/metal interfaces where low
energy ions strike metal electrodes, but do not penetrate.  Here again, the
AE is only inertially confined, and results in the ion product being
accelerated upon its rebound from the plate.


EXAMPLE OF POSSIBLE MECHANISM FOR PRODUCING HEAT IN A GAS

1)  Hydrogen is ionized to create H+ in a mixture of H2 and Rn (radon gas).
This might be accomplished in an arc, a point or wire discharge, or via
RF, x-ray, or other indirect excitement.

2)  The H+ ion comes into contact with a Rn atom, stripping an electron
from the Rn atom producing a H atom and Rn+ ion.  In the event one of the
other noble gasses is used in place of Rn, some of the H+ kinetic energy is
required to strip the electron, and the post collision noble gas atom may
still ultimately retain the electron even though a momentary H orbital
forms during the collision.

3)  An orbital is formed about the H+ ion, suddenly increasing the size of
the ion.  The expansion, fueled by ZPE, imparts "free" energy to the atoms
in the form of potential, then kinetic, energy as the collision progresses.

4)  As the electron occupies the H orbital, quantized EM energy (e.g. one
or more photons), equivalent to the original ionization energy less the Rn
ionizing energy, is released - heating the local environment.

5)  The initial momentums and energies of the H and Rn nuclei gets applied
to their shells, distorting them, and are returned to the environment via
the normal elastic collision mechanism.

6)  Eventually the Rn+ is reconstituted to Rn and a photon is released,
gaining back the complete energy of ionization of the H atom initially.

The net energy gained is the energy of expansion (AE energy) of the H+
orbital in close proximity to the Rn+ ion - thus imparting additional
kinetic energy to both.


WHAT DOES THE AEH EXPLAIN?

The AEH provides a possible explanation for the varied effectiveness of the
alpha, beta, and gamma phases of CF loading.  I suggest that in the initial
loading phase the adsorbed hydrogen is, as suggested by others, alternately
in H and H+ form, but primarily in H+ form.  It is primarily ionically
bound to the lattice, especially when in motion.  An H atom almost fits
inside a tetrahedral lattice cell, but not through the triangular portals
between cells.  In the beta phase, many of the cells are occupied by H
molecules, and in such a state, diffusion between cells requires
displacement of some H molecules, the diffusion paths tend to be blocked,
and the continued diffusion requires the ionization of a path blocking H or
its tunneling out of the way.  Some degree of H confinement upon the
reconversion from an H+ to H would occur, thus some small AE excess energy
might be produced in beta phase.   In the gamma phase, H loading would be
to the point that additional loading would force the formation of H2
molecules in the tetrahedral sites and in the face holes. In looking at the
geometry of the Ni lattice and H2 molecules, it appears such a formation is
possible with only a deformation of the lattice of about 2 percent.  This
would, however, imply extreme confinement and local pressure, which would
dramatically increase the work done by ZPE in supporting the H2 formation,
or "expansion".

Some numbers regarding H2 molecules and the face centered cubic geometry of
the Ni lattice:

H atomic radius:     .79 Å
H covalent radius    .32 Å
H2 bond length       .7414 Å

Ni atomic radius    1.62 Å
Ni covalent radius  1.15 Å
Ni bond length      2.4916 Å

>From this it is determined that the face hole will pass a sphere of radius
0.2885 Å and the tetrahedral space will accommodate a sphere of radius
0.6118 Å. However, an H2 molecule can be placed across one axis of the
tetrahedron with each atom partway through a face hole.  In fact, the H2
atom could pass through the face holes with only an expansion of the bond
length of 2*(.3200 -.2885) = .063 Å.  This is an increase in bond length of
about 2.5 percent.  Less expansion is sufficient to fit the H2 into the
tetrahedron. Note that it is also possible, when there is sufficient heat,
to trap or form an H2 molecule in the face hole and that the three Ni atoms
can act like two hammers and an anvil, or a tri-jawed anvil - popping the
H2 atom apart, each atom then expanding in separate tetrahedral spaces.
Such an expansion is at least inertially constrained, thus AE energy could
result.  Note that each half of the H2 "dumbbell" resides in a different
tetrahedral space.  These spaces can act as pistons, i.e the vacuum will
accumulate zero point energy.  This energy may assist the cracking of the
H2 by the anvil by exerting a Casimir force on the expanding H orbital
surface.  Further, when the orbitals of the expanding H and the boundary
metal atoms make contact, a kind of orbital "blow through" may occur,
creating free electrons that further heat the lattice.  The H nucleus would
be accelerated in the direction of the center of its tetrahedral site by
the expanding H orbital.  This momentum could carry the H nucleus on into
the next tetrahedral site, thus ZPE may help facilitate the H diffusion.
Sufficient energy might momentarily create an H "supermolecule," two H
nuclei orbited by two electrons.   Such events would increase the
likelihood of fusion, if only a small amount.  Maximizing the ZPE
extraction via these means would mean loading the lattice at a (or
eventually heating it to a) temperature near the melting point of the Ni in
order to permit maximum occupation of the triangular face holes by H2
atoms.  Similar arguments apply to the Pd-D system.

The following chart of FCC elements shows possible candidates for such a
mechanism:

Elem.   Bond   Covalent Atomic  Face Hole   Tetrahedral
        Length  Radius  Radius  Radius      Space Radius
         (A)      (A)    (A)     (A)           (A)
Ge      2.4498   1.22   1.52    0.1944        0.5123
Pt      2.7460   1.30   1.83    0.2854        0.6417
Ni      2.4916   1.15   1.62    0.2885        0.6118
Cu      2.5560   1.17   1.57    0.3057        0.6373
Pd      2.7511   1.28   1.79    0.3083        0.6653
Au      2.8841   1.34   1.79    0.3251        0.6993
Ag      2.8894   1.34   1.75    0.3282        0.7031
Al      2.8630   1.25   1.82    0.4030        0.7744
Ce      3.6500   1.65   2.70    0.4573        0.9309
Yb      3.8800   1.74   2.40    0.5001        1.0035
Ca      3.9470   1.74   2.23    0.5388        1.0509
Pb      3.5003   1.47   1.81    0.5509        1.0051
Sr      4.3020   1.91   2.45    0.5738        1.1319

Since hydrogen has a covalent radius of 0.32 A, it appears superficially
that Pd, Cu, Ni, and Pt are the only reasonable candidates for the
suggested anvil/piston mechanism. However, this table is only an
approximation, and a detailed analysis of the crystal structure, utilizing
the Schroedinger Equation, is required.  It is especially noteworthy that
Pt, Cu, and Au are relatively impervious to hydrogen adsorbtion at standard
temperatures.  The best candidates capable of both trapping the H2 in a
face hole and also being capable of anvil pressure on the bond appear to be
Ni, Cu, and Pd, but again, detailed analysis is required.  Also, the less
pervious elements might become active at a high temperature, especially Pt
and Cu.  Note also that above Al in the table, the H atom, having a radius
of 0.79 Å, appears to readily fit into the tetrahedral space without
orbital deformation.  This would greatly diminish the free energy
generating potential.

The AEH  model also may explain why various discharge tubes, especially
those containing H2 or He, appear to produce excess energy.   The ions are
injected into the metal lattice where they are confined prior to atomic
expansion. A repetitive ion oscillation may produce a kind of synchronized
shock wave in the metal surface causing it to rebound and add energy to the
impinging and reflecting particles at the surface.  The source of the AE
energy may be primarily in the electrodes, especially cathodes, but to some
degree may occur in the gas as well, or at the electrode surface due to AE
surface effect expansion.

The AEH may also explain the mechanism by which cavitation devices produce
excess heat - namely that some of the H2O is ionized in the cavitation
bubbles and the collapsing bubble results in the ions being injected into
the the high pressure water wall where the ions reconstitute and expand,
undergo AE, adding pressure, thus kinetic energy, to the collapsing
pressure wall.

The AEH may also explain the over unity performance of an arc in producing
water gas in that collision of H+ with C, or CO or CO2 could potentially
create AE energy.

Here are some ionization potentials of interest:

H   13.598
C   11.260
CO  14.014
CO2 13.773

Note that no kinetic energy is required to trigger the AE reaction between
H+ and C and that little is required for CO or CO2.  Note that the AE
reaction might possibly push the chemical equilibrium in the arc toward the
production of CO by supplying the excess energy required to split the
second O from the CO2.  Two things are bothersome about this concept
though.  One is that if the AE effect exists it should have been observed
in chemistry long ago.  Another is that, unlike the case where H+ and a
noble gas are used, a bond can form between the H and the reactant, so the
kinetic energy would end up in molecular vibration, or in reducing the
probability of such a bond.  The main difficulty, though, is that the
shared orbital, the bond, creates an attractive force instead of a
repulsive force.  AE excess energy is based upon repulsion, not attraction.
Perhaps one difficulty answers the other.  In any event, He++ would make a
more logical AE generator than H+ in this application.  The He would act as
an energy booster, and thereby as a kind of catalyst, in cracking the H2O
and CO2 bonds.  Such a process may work best at very low voltages and high
frequencies, especially in a manner similar to that suggested by Puharich
(Ref. 8) for cracking water.  His method adapted to a steam/CO2
environment, catalyzed by He, could assist in the production of water gas.
Such a gas could be used, within a sealed glass envelope containing both
discharges, to feed oscillations (due to operation in the negative
resistance range) of a higher voltage arc or electric discharge, to produce
electrical energy directly, without mechanical devices.


SO WHAT ABOUT DESIGN CRITERIA?

This model results in some concrete design suggestions:

1) Produce ions (especially H+ or H++) in as large a quantity and as
efficiently as possible.

2) Accelerate or transport the ions into a confining and preferably
conducting medium where they are deionized under pressure.

3) Utilize the increased pressure and heat in the confining medium.

4) Make the confining medium as gas recycling as possible, preferably
extracting energy from the higher pressure and temperature post-AE gas
before repeating the cycle.


SOME APPLICATION AND EXPERIMENTATION THOUGHTS

1)  Mercury, though not as confining as a lattice, may make a good medium
for ion injection as it would expel the gasses quickly.  Mercury also
conducts electricity well.  Other metals could be used at higher
temperatures; however, electron emission from hot cathodes would not be
good as it would increase the power demand.  The increased power would have
to be utilized to result in more ionizations.  The simplest possible test
device may be a small sealed glass tube of H2 or He with a point anode at
the top and mercury cathode at the bottom, activated with high frequency
high voltage pulsed DC current.  An improvement might be to use two anode
electrodes, isolated from the cathode, with a lower voltage discharge
between the anodes to do the ionization.

2)  Hot anodes are fine as they will increase ionization and kinetic energy
of the gas.  An arc created by an isolation transformer may make a very
good anode.

3)  It may be possible to use water as a cathode.  The atomic expansion may
assist in boiling the water at the surface.  The water could provide it's
own H2 from the evolved steam which migrates to an arc anode.  It might be
good to use a helium atmosphere to get safe recombination.  An electrolyte
would, of course, increase the cathode conductivity.

4)  Electrolysis (or arcs) under water may produce usable energy if done
under extreme pressure.  Simply use the evolved high pressure gas to move
pistons.  Additional process stages could be added for recombination and
heat recovery.  Some of the energy of compression, by the AEH model, would
come from the ZPE sea.

5)  As suggested earlier, a closed tube with an electrically excited
mixture of H2 and a noble gas, especially radon, may produce some over
unity results.

6)  The process of producing water gas, i.e. burning carbon in an arc under
water to produce CO and H2, may be improved by avoiding the use carbon rods
altogether.  This might be done by recycling the CO2 and H2O (as steam)
into an arc and driving its equilibrium to a mixture of H2O, CO2, CO, and
H2 in the arc.  The AE energy would assist in driving the reaction in
reverse in the arc and would be the energy derived from the recycling
process.  This process might be assisted by adding He to the atmosphere as
the He has a much higher ionization potential (24.587 volts) than CO or
CO2, and will not bond with it.


REFERENCES

1.  H. E. Puthoff, "Everything for Nothing," New. Sci., vol. 127, p. 52 (28
July 1990).

2.  H. E. Puthoff, "Ground State of Hydrogen as a
Zero-Point-Fluctuation-Determined State," Phys. Rev. D, vol. 35, p. 3266
(1987).

3.  D. C. Cole and H. E. Puthoff, "Extracting Energy and Heat from the
Vacuum," Phys. Rev. E, vol. 48, p. 1562 (1993).

4.  H. E. Puthoff, "The Energetic Vacuum:  Implications for Energy
Research," Spec. in Sci. and Tech., vol. 13, p. 247 (1990).

5.  Timothy Boyer, "The Classical Vacuum," Scientific American, p. 70,
August 1985

6.  Walter Greiner and Joseph Hamilton, "Is the Vacuum Really Empty?",
American Scientist, March-April 1980, p. 154

7.  H. E. Puthoff, "The Energetic Vacuum: Implications for Energy
Research",  Speculations in Science and Technology, vol. 13, no. 4, pp.
247-257, 1990.

8.  US Patent 4,394,230, "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR SPLITTING WATER
MOLECULES," Henry K. Puharich, Attorney, Agent, or Firm - Mandeville and
Schweitzer

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 07:33:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30853;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:31:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:31:27 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b88ae6bdc875 [12.21.208.110]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 06:34:23 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Blue glow and the AEH
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA30825
Resent-Message-ID: <"5u7fR.0.zX7.F3KPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46033
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In 1996 I proposed The Atomic Expansion Hypothesis (AEH), the idea that
atomic expansion (AE), the increase in the size of an ionized atom or
molecule, like H+, which occurs when it takes on an orbital electron, can
perform work on the surroundings of the ion, and that the amount of energy
released can be greater than the initial ionization energy, provided the
ion is in a sufficiently confined space when the expansion occurs.  For
convenience, the AEH has been re-posted separately.  It is the purpose here
to relate the AEH to excess energy note in association with the blue glow
observed in high voltage electrolysis experiments.

I have recently reported here on vortex seeing a blue glow in high voltage
electrolysis cells, and that this glow is in the proximity with the anode.
It has occurred to me that this glow may be due to recombination.  H+ ions
are made at the anode, which removes electrons in its vicinity, and
releases O2.  These ions attach to H2O molecules, forming an H3O+ radical.
It is said (e.g by Bockris) that conduction in water electrolytes is almost
entirely by proton conduction, i.e by H3O+ molecule rotation, and by proton
tunneling from H3O+ molecules to adjacent H2O molecules, or via H3O+ chains
to an H2O molecule.  OH- radicals also migrate by diffusion.  This
mechanism indicates to me a slow OH- migration, and a very fast proton
migration.

I have posted various experimental results here on vortex, which show long
square pulse wavefronts move through water at above 0.1 c.  The full
currrent is established very fast, and the inirtial mass of the proton, or
rather the 1700 to 1 ratio of mass of the proton to the electron, seems to
preclude the current being established so quickly.  I concluded that there
must be at least some electron conduction occuring in the electrolyte.  My
feeling was that ion-molecule chains, i.e. OH- chains, or OH- to H2O to OH-
... chains, may provide a tunneling path for electron conduction.  The very
long tunneling distance of electrons make their migration far more likely
over molecular distances than proton tunneling.

If the blue glow nearby the anode is indeed recombination, then that
indicates that the migration of negative charge through the electrolyte
occurs faster than the migration of positive charge via proton conduction.
Otherwise, at the onset of conduction, protons would zip to the cathode
face, and there meet the OH- ions which are merely moving by diffusion once
more than a few molecular distances from the electrode.  The field
gradients near the cathode and anode have been measured, and the potential
drop across a cell is almost entirely in close proximity to the electrodes.
Ion migration though the cell has therefore been theorized to be almost
entirely by simple diffusion (see Bockris.)

Also of note is that heat evolution has been noted to be more in the
vicinity of the anode, rather than the cathode.  Recombination inthe
vicinity of the anode would help explain that.  Recombination would also
explain why the blue glow was observed to be postively related to current
density.  Increased current means increased proton mass flow, thus an
increased recombination rate.

In the AEH, I suggested that protons (if there is a sufficient voltage
drop) might be injected into the electrolyte at the anode.  In that case,
the electrolyte itself would be acting as a "target" cathode, and the
kinetic energy gained by the proton while passing through the anode
potential drop, espcially if doing so in a plasma regime, would inject the
nearly zero volume particle relatively deep into the electrolyte.  Upon
encountering an electron, the hydrogen would then be expanded into an
orbital by energy supplied from the vacuum, thus "free" energy supplied to
the electrolyte.  Alternatively, and more likely, the hydrogen could
encounter an OH- radical, and recombine to form water, or simply joind an
H2O molecuale to form an H3O+ radical, which can then go on to eventually
result in recombination, or direct release of hydrogen via electronation at
the cathode.  It appears, from the blue glow, that electronation of some
kind is occuring near the anode, indicating a conduction source of
electrons in the electrolyte. In any case, the formation of an orbital
around at least some of the injected protons should result in free energy
from the ZPE sea via atomic expansion.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 08:43:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28292;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:41:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:41:05 -0800
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:55:55 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <001b01c1b187$97595540$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"BCD-Z.0.vv6.X4LPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46034
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> Another mystery is the lack of tritium...

Claytor used different parameters from P&F and found lots of tritium. For all we
know, there could be "black project" underway at Los Alamos or somewhere else to
perfect Claytor's process...

BTW, the typical D+D branching ratios don't hold at lower voltage. There is a
lot of convincing research and anecdotal evidence (Fusor) that tritium is highly
favored below 30-40 kv.


> Well, I'll up your single neutrino to a pair of 10 MeV neutrinos.  The
> reaction D + D -> He4 doesn't need a neutrino, so a neutrino-anti-neutrino
> pair should work out OK.  Perhaps the presence of the catalyzing electron
> permits the pair creation?


Why not a +Muon -Muon ? I guess the obvious answer is that it would require >100
MeV, but maybe that is what you get from three deuteron fusion ;-}  OR
maybe there is another variety of paired + and - light lepton out there just
waiting for Fred Sparber to describe ....


Regards,

Jones Beene




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 09:03:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04069;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:03:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:03:12 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20020209115409.01f30ae8 pop.theworld.com>
X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:00:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
In-Reply-To: <001b01c1b187$97595540$8837fea9 computer>
References: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"8xDcz.0.V_.FPLPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46035
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<html>
<br>
At 07:55 AM 2/9/2002 -0800, J. Beene wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Claytor used different parameters from P&amp;F
and found lots of tritium. For all we<br>
know, there could be &quot;black project&quot; underway at Los Alamos or
somewhere else to<br>
perfect Claytor's process...<br>
<br>
BTW, the typical D+D branching ratios don't hold at lower voltage. There
is a<br>
lot of convincing research and anecdotal evidence (Fusor) that tritium is
highly<br>
favored below 30-40 kv.</blockquote><br>
<br>
&nbsp;This is very interesting given that the Optimum operating points
for the<br>
heat production (linked with helium formation) are to the right (on the
power scale)<br>
of the tritium formation, for all the CF systems which we have
investigated.<br>
[cf. Swartz, M, 1998, &quot;Optimal Operating Point Characteristics 
<br>
of Nickel Light Water Experiments&quot;, &quot;Proceedings of
ICCF-7&quot;;<br>
Swartz, M, 1998, Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance<br>
&nbsp;Using p-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions <br>
of the American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn 1998 <br>
Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85;<br>
Swartz, M., &quot;Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in 
<br>
Low Energy Nuclear Systems&quot;, <i>Journal of New Energy</i>, 4, 2,
218-228 (1999);<br>
Swartz. M., &quot;<font face="Times New Roman, Times">CONTROL OF LOW
ENERGY NUCLEAR SYSTEMS THROUGH <br>
LOADING AND OPTIMAL OPERATING POINTS&quot;, <br>
ANS/ 2000 International Winter Meeting, Nov. 12-17, 2000, Washington,
D.C. (2000)]<br>
</font>&nbsp;<br>
Could you please post or send whatever data,, refs. or url&nbsp;
including anecdotal,<br>
you might have on what you state above, including with the
Fusor.&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mitchell Swartz<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 09:25:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13094;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:23:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:23:22 -0800
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:23:32 -0800
From: Ron Wormus <protech frii.com>
Sender: Ron Wormus <protech fri.com>
Reply-To: Ron Wormus <protech frii.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Joseph Newman Assistance
Message-ID: <85718867.1013250212 localhost>
In-Reply-To: <a3.2361eb64.2995c47d aol.com>
References:  <a3.2361eb64.2995c47d aol.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.2 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==========85736393=========="
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"dUw-v2.0.WC3.9iLPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46036
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

--==========85736393==========
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Chris,
Well if you could manage to sue Newman for infringing your patent. Your 
patent (or parts of it) would likely be invalidated since Newman has been 
working at this for years before your application. I don't pretend to know 
the similarities or differences between the devices. You truly have the 
most bizarre view of patents and how the system works of anyone I have ever 
encountered. You would do well to heed Jed's advice.
Ron W.


--On Friday, February 08, 2002 7:17 PM -0500 Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

> Jed,
>
> What does not exist? My device or your logic. To see my patent go to my
> web  site and to see the device, the link is right under the patent link.
>
> As for everything else you said - you really should get more rest. Law
> suits,  business and non existent technology - what is the point of
> carrying on like  this Jed.
>
> Best Regards,
> Chris
>
>


--==========85736393==========
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<flushleft>Chris,

Well if you could manage to sue Newman for infringing your patent. Your =
patent (or parts of it) would likely be invalidated since Newman has been =
working at this for years before your application. I don't pretend to know =
the similarities or differences between the devices. You truly have the =
most bizarre view of patents and how the system works of anyone I have ever =
encountered. You would do well to heed Jed's advice.

Ron W.



--On Friday, February 08, 2002 7:17 PM -0500 Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:


> Jed,

>=20

> What does not exist? My device or your logic. To see my patent go to my

> web  site and to see the device, the link is right under the patent link. =


>=20

> As for everything else you said - you really should get more rest. Law

> suits,  business and non existent technology - what is the point of

> carrying on like  this Jed.

>=20

> Best Regards,

> Chris

>=20

> =20



--==========85736393==========--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 10:30:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10940;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:27:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:27:27 -0800
Message-ID: <3C65601D.37633C01 mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:45:01 -0500
From: sno <sno2 mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
References: <v01530501b88ae345f7fb [12.21.208.110]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ENRDw1.0.sg2.FeMPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46037
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


If compression is the key...as you suggest,
then the thing that would be needed to 
trigger cf reaction, once loading is 
accomplished, would be to heat the loaded
material quickly....causing expansion of
the lattice and the H that might be trapped...

Is this correct...???

steve opelc

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
>                      THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
> 
>                       by Horace Heffner  12/30/1996
> 
> STATEMENT OF HYPOTHESIS AND BACKGROUND ASSUMPTIONS
> 
> The Atomic Expansion Hypothesis (AEH) is the idea that atomic expansion
> (AE), the increase in the size of an ionized atom or molecule, like H+,
> which occurs when it takes on an orbital electron, can perform work on the
> surroundings of the ion, and that the amount of energy released can be
> greater than the initial ionization energy, provided the ion is in a
> sufficiently confined space when the expansion occurs.  This is an idea

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 10:47:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18826;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:45:27 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:45:27 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:38:25 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <002801c1b198$f63ca740$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20020209115409.01f30ae8 pop.theworld.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"AvFh12.0.0c4.5vMPy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46038
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>


>   BTW, the typical D+D branching ratios don't hold at lower voltage. There is
a
>   lot of convincing research and anecdotal evidence (Fusor) that tritium is
highly
>   favored below 30-40 kv.

> Could you please post or send whatever data,, refs. or url  including
anecdotal,
> you might have on what you state above, including with the Fusor.   Thank you.

Geeze Mitchell. This is old news and many of your own prior posts, including
reports from Proceedings of ICCF-7, contain the data that show huge shortages in
the number of measured neutrons compared to tritium, sometime a billion to one.

You may not agree with it, and you may have experiments that show otherwise, but
so what. If there is one common thread in CF it is that small differences in
parameters are crucial. The researchers such as Claytor who report excess have a
great deal of credibility and it seems the references you are giving are citing
mainly your own work.

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 11:47:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12106;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:45:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:45:13 -0800
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:38:13 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Oppenheimer-Phillips and anomalous branching
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <004601c1b1a1$50da0140$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"E7XjD2.0.-y2.8nNPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46039
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Here is some information from the web that tries to explain excess tritium and
anomalous branching, some of it paraphrased from Miley.

Hey, old J. Robert, the very icon of hot fusion, may have in reality, been the
first cold fusioneer...

In 1935 Oppenheimer and Melba Phillips made a basic contribution to quantum
theory, discovering  what is known as the Oppenheimer-Phillips process.  It
involves the nuclear break-up of deuterons in low energy collisions that
formerly had been thought far too weak for any nuclear effect.

The two physicists found that, when a deuteron is fired into a target atom even
weakly, the neutron can be stripped off the  proton and penetrate the nucleus of
the target.  It had been assumed that, since the deuteron and  target nucleus
are both positively charged, each would repel the other except in high-energy
collisions. The Oppenheimer-Phillips effect suggests that different target
electric polarization may, at low energies of impinging deuterons, nullify
coulomb repulsion and thereby change what would be the normal branching ratio of
the high energy fusion path.

They say that the process is characterized by the deuteron's disintegration and
may even be called fission rather than fusion. Such a process would explain the
production of tritium and no helium,  and the anomalous branching ratio that is
often found in Cold Fusion.

Wow, wonder why this newsbyte hasn't received more play....

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 11:50:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13729;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:49:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:49:13 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20020209144250.01f210c8 pop.theworld.com>
X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:46:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
In-Reply-To: <002801c1b198$f63ca740$8837fea9 computer>
References: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20020209115409.01f30ae8 pop.theworld.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"VkOVv.0.PM3.uqNPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46040
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 




At 10:38 AM 2/9/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>From: "Mitchell Swartz" <mica world.std.com>
>
>
> >   BTW, the typical D+D branching ratios don't hold at lower voltage. 
> There is
>a
> >   lot of convincing research and anecdotal evidence (Fusor) that tritium is
>highly
> >   favored below 30-40 kv.
>
> > Could you please post or send whatever data,, refs. or url  including
>anecdotal,
> > you might have on what you state above, including with the 
> Fusor.   Thank you.
>
>Geeze Mitchell. This is old news and many of your own prior posts, including
>reports from Proceedings of ICCF-7, contain the data that show huge 
>shortages in
>the number of measured neutrons compared to tritium, sometime a billion to 
>one.
>
>You may not agree with it, and you may have experiments that show 
>otherwise, but
>so what. If there is one common thread in CF it is that small differences in
>parameters are crucial. The researchers such as Claytor who report excess 
>have a
>great deal of credibility and it seems the references you are giving are 
>citing
>mainly your own work.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jones Beene




     The lack of neutrons is old news.
     Too bad, Mr. Beene.  Thought for once you had something of interest and
seriousness to say about cold fusion, but it seems that I was wrong.

     Also, your comments about my papers are wrong as usual, so one 
suspects that
the rest of your comments have no credibility to serious CF researchers.

         Dr. Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 12:40:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04619;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:36:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:36:35 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Transparaent metal
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:36:01 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <7l1b6uocsqkrqfqdm6p2m038eon4p9cncv 4ax.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA04588
Resent-Message-ID: <"J9Rsi3.0.381.IXOPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46041
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Hi,

When a metallic antenna intercepts a radio wave, the wave causes the
free electrons in the metal to oscillate in sync with the wave.
Since visible light is also EM radiation, if intense enough, it might
have the same effect, particularly if of a single frequency.
Now the metal is full of coherent electrons.
Now what happens when the intensity is so high that the magnetic field
portion of the wave saturates the metal? Does extra intensity above this
level pass right on through?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 14:05:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09030;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:02:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:02:39 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:02:03 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <107b6uogc2uu0gpm89c0aivo54s1l26msi 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b88a6d0e31b4 [12.21.208.36]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA08903
Resent-Message-ID: <"ad1QU3.0.rC2.-nPPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46042
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:22:59 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>Well, I'll up your single neutrino to a pair of 10 MeV neutrinos.  The
>reaction D + D -> He4 doesn't need a neutrino, so a neutrino-anti-neutrino
>pair should work out OK.  Perhaps the presence of the catalysing electron
>permits the pair creation?
[snip]
The problem here is that the neutrino-antineutrino pair would result in
a signature of transmutation without any heat.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 14:07:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10248;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:04:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:04:43 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b88b4777825d [12.21.211.5]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:07:34 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
Resent-Message-ID: <"ju0NJ3.0.2W2.wpPPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46043
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:45 PM 2/9/2, sno wrote:
>If compression is the key...as you suggest,
>then the thing that would be needed to
>trigger cf reaction, once loading is
>accomplished, would be to heat the loaded
>material quickly....causing expansion of
>the lattice and the H that might be trapped...
>
>Is this correct...???
>
>steve opelc


No, the key is to introduce, inject, a nearly dimensionless object, e..g.
nucleus, into a rigid or high pressure environment.  It is the continuing
PROCESS of the introduction, from an external source, of a bare nucleus
that is key, not the compression of the atom once in the environment.  When
the nucleus suddenly takes on one or more electrons, it is no longer
dimensionless, but rather has a volume that can resist extreme pressure, by
virtue of the momentum of the waveform.  This momentum is assured, fed, by
the zero point field.  The more the waveform is compressed, the more
momentum is fed into it.  The energy extracted from this scheme, however,
comes from the initial expansion, not from compression once the nucleus has
its full complement of electrons.  That is merely an energy conservative
spring-like action.  The initial expansion of the electron waveform
compresses the local environment even further than it initially is
compressed, amd/or applies momentum to bodies adjacent, and thereby
transfers free heat during the initial expansion process.  The amount of
energy supplied, however, in terms of increased compression and free heat,
should be proportional to the pressure of the environment.

This scheme does of course predict that the free energy extracted from high
voltage electrolysis, the ZPE proportion anyway, will increase in
proportion to the pressure at which the electrolysis  (or other nucleus
injection process) operates.

In the AEH document I attempted to show how lattice waveform mechanics
might be responsible for a repetition of the process, especially in the
presence of diffusion, but this was especially speculative.

It is of interest that a layer of palladium, acting as a cathode on one
side, passes hydrogen nucleii through it, which expand upon introduction
into the space on the other side.  This process seems to not be sensitive
to the pressure on the opposing side.  For that matter, electrolysis
itself, which involves bubble expansion, does not seem to be sensitive to
the energy requirements for expanding the bubbles due to the pressure.  In
fact the process benefits form the fact that more hydrogen can evolve per
surface area per unit time due to the compression of the hydrogen.  For
this reason, commercial electrolysis units are operated at high pressure.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 14:18:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19285;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:17:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:17:58 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:17:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <aq7b6u051oup6dgdacgvlnsrppjkmc64ps 4ax.com>
References: <v01530501b88657b20019 [12.21.211.92]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220@pop.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA19256
Resent-Message-ID: <"x2_xr2.0.Aj4.M0QPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46044
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:18:12 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>The least polluting alternative would be to convert 32.8 units of solar or 
>wind power into 4.1 units of hydrogen, into one unit of propulsion. 
>However, given the costs of solar and wind power today this would 
>be  expensive. If wind power falls to 2 cents per kWh, this would become 
>reasonably economical. I have not run the numbers, but I think it would be 
>favorable to gasoline at $3 per gallon. It would require a huge investment 
>in infrastructure and pipelines, which would take many years to build.
[snip]
Why would it require any investment in pipelines? Electric power could
be used to produce hydrogen through electrolysis directly on site at
"gas" stations, all of which already have both power and water
connections.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 15:55:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31060;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:50:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:50:24 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530504b88b63490ba0 [12.21.211.5]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:53:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer-Phillips and anomalous branching
Resent-Message-ID: <"KBGUN1.0.Eb7.0NRPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46045
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:38 AM 2/9/2, Jones Beene wrote:
>Here is some information from the web that tries to explain excess tritium and
>anomalous branching, some of it paraphrased from Miley.

>
>Wow, wonder why this newsbyte hasn't received more play....
>
>Jones


Stripping reactions and their prospects for energy generation have been
discussed here extensively.  The fusor produces neutrons through stripping,
for example.   As far as I can see, it doesn't help explain a lack of
neutrons from He3 because stipping itself produces a lot of neutrons, and
doesn't help explain

    D + D -> He

or the lack of an appropriate amount of tritium, which is a very easy
isotope to detect.  It may explain the lack of high energy neutrons
however?

The problem with utilizing stripping is it is difficult to break even
unless heavy (and thus polluting) targets are used.   Here is one of my old
posts.

            Quarupole deuteron neutron stripping device

                     Horace Heffner - 1/12/98

The energy value of neutrons lies in the fact that thermal neutron induced
reactions in suitable low nuclear waste targets release from 2 to 10 MeV.
In addition, a neutron beam with suitable kinetic energy can multiply
neutron counts by low waste producing reactions like:

   n + 7Li --> 6Li + 2 n
   n + 10Be --> 2 He4 + 3 n

The isotope 10Be does not occur naturally, is unstable, and has a half life
of 1.52x10^6 y.  However, it can be made from 9Be which is a good stripping
target. Though 10Be would constitute a nulcear waste, if discarded, but
there is no need to discard it because it would constitute a primary part
of the fuel, and its concentration in a stripping reactor target material
would reach equilibrium, neither requiring enrichment nor being depleted,
as the eventual adding of Be9 to the target material as it is depleted
would correspond to the neutron flux produced, thus eventually maintaining
the concentration equilibrium. In addition, a Be layer preceeding a Li
layer would provide structural integrity to preserve the beam chamber
vacuum.

It was suggested by Robert Eachus that flipping the spin of the proton in a
deuteron could induce fission in the D2 nucleus.  The problem then, it
seems, is finding the strongest possible method for flipping the spin of
the proton relative to the neutron. Earlier I suggested using a quadrupole
wiggler. The idea behind this is (1) the kinetic energy of the beam exceeds
the binding energy of the deuteron and (2) the spin flipping can not be
made to happen any faster than in such a device, due to the near light
speed of the deuteron when moving through alternating magnetic poles of the
wiggler, and (3) a constant electrostatic force relative to the beam aligns
all the protons to one side and places acceleration induced stress on the
proton-neutron bond simultaneous to the magnetic field induced proton
flipping.  There is no limit to the magnetic field strength that could be
applied to such a beam, so the maximum flipping effect is really a matter
of balancing the field strength of the wiggler magnets with the proximity
of the field reversal points obtainable.  It would also seem benficial to
place the target in a place of maximum magnetic and electrostaic stress on
the deuteron.  Possibly a charged target oblique to the beam is indicated.

Sending deutrons through a wiggler will generate photon emission, but that
emission is in the direction of beam travel, so such photons will still hit
the target. The kinetic energy of the deuteron, less binding energy
possibly absorbed from the deuteron fission, is exhausted in the target, so
all the energy put into the beam formation, less deuteron binding energy
absorbed, eventually ends up in the target material.  Therefore it is
simply a matter of obtaining an average of more than the binding energy of
the deuteron from each neutron released to obtain energy (theoretical
breakeven) from the device.  The energy released by reactions from the
stripped neutrons must also be sufficient to overcome the energy lost
converting the heat back into electrical energy and then into beam energy
to obtain true breakeven.

A stripping reactor can not endlessly multiply neutrons, is not a breader,
so, one important factor is the fuel cost cost (say of D2O) per neutron.
We can assume 100 percent conversion of D2 to P + n for purposes of fuel
cost consideration, because the D2 not so converted can be recycled.

The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the
price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and
purity.  Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use
$0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume.  Using 20 as the molecular
weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy
output E=(10^7 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^11
J/mol.  At $2/mol the fuel cost of the energy is 4.82x10^11 J/$.  At 3600
J/Wh, we have 1.34x10^8 Wh/$, or 134,000 KWh/$.  Assuming a plant
efficiency of 1 percent, we still produce power at 1340 KWh/$, or 0.0746
cents/KWh which compares favorably with present retail electricity costs of
about 10 cents/KWh and fuel costs of approximately 2 cents/KWh.

This is a marginal situation, but still interesting.   The economics of a
stripping type reactor hinges almost entirely on getting plant costs down,
i.e. the plant cost/neutron, and on the amount of energy spent converting
each D to p + n, which can be high if a particle accelerator type approach
is used.  Also, 2 MeV output per neutron might be a more realistic target
than 10 MeV per neutron, which increases the D2O fuel cost to 0.00373
cents/KWh, and the cost of wholesale electricity from a 1 percent efficient
plant to .373 cents/KWh, excluding unitized plant cost.  If about 2 MeV is
put into each neutron prior to the stripping, then the target neutron
multiplication factor is a major player in the economics, and a target
neutron multipliction factor of about 2 is required.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 16:05:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05315;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:04:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:04:32 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530505b88b68a14d32 [12.21.211.5]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:07:30 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
Resent-Message-ID: <"U3Z403.0.zI1.FaRPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46046
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:02 AM 2/10/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:22:59 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>Well, I'll up your single neutrino to a pair of 10 MeV neutrinos.  The
>>reaction D + D -> He4 doesn't need a neutrino, so a neutrino-anti-neutrino
>>pair should work out OK.  Perhaps the presence of the catalysing electron
>>permits the pair creation?
>[snip]
>The problem here is that the neutrino-antineutrino pair would result in
>a signature of transmutation without any heat.


That depends on exactly how much of the energy is carried off by th
neutrinos.  I don't know that any lower bound has been set for neutrino
mass, has it?  Only upper bounds have been determined as far as I know.
Therefore we don't know what proportion of energy the neutrinos should
carry off, nor what is the heat of the nucleus involved  It also depends on
the initial energy of the system, which, in the case of electron catalysed
fusion, is admittedly comparativley low.  There is also the prospect that
the observed heat of CF is not from fusion at all.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 16:38:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21103;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:35:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:35:44 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88b6c2620d5 [12.21.211.5]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:38:40 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"6M67Z.0.f95.V1SPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46047
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

It makes no sense at all to wait 10 years for fuel cell auto power plants
and meanwhile stop hybrid development.  It is time critical for the US to
devlope and most importantly distribute the hybrid technology into a major
share of the maket place.  Our exposure to catastophic loss of oil appears
at this time to be most likely in the near yerm, as opposed to 10 years
out.  It is catastophic near term loss of oil that is an immmediate threat
to national security and the economy.

Developing hybrid technology, including natural gas and hydrogen engine
hybrids, is extremely relevant now, because the main risk of sudden and
nearly total loss of foreign oil is probably largest in the next few
years, and certainly is significant over the next ten years.  Waiting 10
years for a solution when at least a partial one is at hand is just plain
stupid and a threat to national security.

If hydrogen storage is not a problem for fuel cell cars then it should not
be a problem for hydrogen hybrids either.  However, it should be easy to
convert methane engins to hydrogen, and it is reasonable to pursue methane
based hybrid systems right now, since the transmission infrastructure is in
place, along with vast near term and future sources.  Methane fleet (car
bus and/or truck) operation based on engine conversion already has a long
and successful history in the US.

Coal gassification can be a very efficient source of methane.   The HYDRANE
process, for example, has a thermal efficiency of 78 percent (that's (BTU
coal in)/(BTU gas  out) x 100).  There has been a lot of practical success
with methane engine conversion, technically, environmentally, and
economically.   In fact, I don't know of a commercial "from scratch"
designed methane engine.  All the fleets operating today are likely
conversions.

Coal gassification might add more pollution and carbon to the air than a
hydrogen system.   However, at least at one time, the leading candidate
process plant coal gassification schemes did not have significant
atmospheric emission, and natural gas engines have proven out in practice
to be far cleaner than gasoline engines.

The by products of gassification are mainly slag and sulfer. Some processes
do yield small quantities of  N2, CO, and CO2 in the product gas, but
typically less than 2 percent total, and that mostly N2.  Cyclone
separators, scrubbers,  etc. remove the ash and contaminants from the flue
gas for processes that have flue gas.

Overall, it seems to me that more than economics should drive this decision
process.  Concern for the near future risks at hand and both the short term
and long term well being of the country should weigh considerably in the
decision process.  The present existence of natural gas shipping,
transmission, and distribution systems, plus huge coal and gas reserves,
does seem to tilt the decision process toward natural gas (over hydrogen)
in order to meet needs for the next 10 years.  However, hybrid systems, be
they natural gas powered, or gasoline powered, still appear to have large
advantages in fuel economy, and present a good prospect for very near term
help.  Waiting 10 years for fuel cell development does not appear to be a
wise decision when the near term need is possibly dire.  And technology
development is only a part of the process.  The solution has to gain major
maket sharer, and that will take a while.  A new car is a big investment.
For that reason, gasoline to natural gas conversion may end up being a
significant part of an emergency response effort.

The American people clearly have the power to influence this kind of
decision process, but are probably ignorant of the risks involved, and the
impact of their choices at the car dealer today.  Perhaps 9/11 provided a
wake-up call of sorts, but an education process will have to occur before
people find out what kinds of things should be done.  The best investment
of money immediately may be to raise awareness in the public of the
problems, but I agree, special interests would likely be successful in
suppressing such a tact or any tact that does not agree with their
perceptions.  It will be difficult to communicate the wisdom of action now
to a public that is concerned with upgrading to HDTV.

Special interests may need a wake up call of their own, though that should
be easier to accomplish.  If the economy goes bust, it is clear that no one
will have the money to buy their products.  Maintaining the status quo is
not a safe bet for anyone.

Well, at least Honda has an offering.  I wonder if my hulk can fit in one?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 16:51:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27335;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:50:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:50:52 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88b7372d7ad [12.21.208.78]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:53:50 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Resent-Message-ID: <"s6lop.0.yg6.iFSPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46048
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Aluminum pryrolisis should have no atmospheric emssiion at all, except
possibly water vapor  The aluminum oxide is later recovered, reduced and
recycled.  It is notable that pyrolisis is not the only means to utilize
the high energy content of aluminum.  An air-aluminum battery could
possibly be developed.

For those who may not have picked up on it, this topic was mainly an
intellectual exploration and not an earnest proposal.  However, I think it
is an interesting subject especially as an adjunct to other topics.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 17:59:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09589;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:56:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:56:57 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 17:49:47 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer-Phillips and anomalous branching
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00be01c1b1d5$3911c1e0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530504b88b63490ba0 [12.21.211.5]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"r9mA42.0.aL2.cDTPy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46049
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> Stripping reactions and their prospects for energy generation have been
> discussed here extensively.  The fusor produces neutrons through stripping,
> for example.

Well maybe sometimes, but not always, especially according to the pre-eminent
expert on Fusors, George Miley.

If you will remember, Horace, I contacted him about this and got the message
(from his assistant) that they ran neutron spectroscopy on their fusor and found
that they were all the higher energy neutrons from D+D fusion. This has been
confirmed by Richard Hull who has been doing a lot of Fusor work. But in these
two setups, Miley and Hull's, we have normal high-energy 50/50 branching, as
expected. They are getting center of mass collision energies of about 80 keV due
to "convergence zone" energy multiplication, (same as in sonofusion).

My earlier comment about non-normal branching in Fusors relates to the lower end
of the energy spectrum at about 20-30 keV and is anecdotal - as no spectroscopy
was performed. Eachus said that the great majority of stripped neutrons would be
thermal. If they are thermal then there can be no associated 3He, only protons,
stripped thermal neutrons and whatever results from the thermal neutron
absorption.

> As far as I can see, it doesn't help explain a lack of
> neutrons from He3 because stipping itself produces a lot of neutrons, and
> doesn't help explain
>     D + D -> He

Wait a minute. It can explain both quite elegantly (if you buy it - and I'm at
all fully convinced, so don't cast me as the major proponent of this)!!

The 4He is explained elegantly as it can only come from the alpha particle that
results from the thermal neutron absorption of Pd (is it 104Pd? one of them has
high cross-section and no gamma). The Pd will absorb thermal neutrons readily
but is nearly transparent to the 2.45 MeV neutron of D+D fusion.

It also explains the lack of neutrons from 3He because there is NO 3He with
stripping, only protons, a very few neutrons that don't get absorbed by Pd and a
little tritium.

It premises the setup as being electrically polarized, and when the neutron is
stripped by the Pd,  *ONLY* the neutron can get absorbed and that is mainly by
the Pd, which does the stripping. *NO* 3He can form directly from stripping,
only alphas and a tiny amount of tritium.

> or the lack of an appropriate amount of tritium, which is a very easy
> isotope to detect.  It may explain the lack of high energy neutrons
> however?

Because the cross section of D for thermal neutrons is so low, you get little
Tritium this way. However, Claytor's reaction is likely not stripping but
something different that does depend on altered branching ratios brought on by
some other mechanism than Oppenheimer-Phillips (don't you think it's cool that
it goes all the way back to Opie?). I tried to make it clear in the earlier
prefaced remarks that there are likely to be several mechanisms at work in CF.

Let's be clear on this one point (that apparently someone claiming to be an
expert has missed completely.)  IF YOU DON"T HAVE NEUTRONS (2.45 MeV neutrons)
then you cannot have 3He unless the 3He comes from the decay of tritium. In both
cases, without energetic neutrons there must exist anomalous branching. And that
was the point of the remark that started the whole discussion.

Regards,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 18:10:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25743;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:08:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:08:11 -0800
Message-ID: <20020210020811.136.qmail web20601.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:08:11 -0800 (PST)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Dr Wrongway's Alternator Overunity Demo
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"3no_c.0.9I6.BOTPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46050
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Where's that Eric Kreig Guy anyways, I think I should
fly out to CA and see if he has any money for sale!

In any case this one should confound the experts for a
while and is doable by anyone having a converted 3
phase AC alternator. From there you simply shell out
40 more dollars and purchase two of Radio Shack's Mega
Cable speaker wire, wound in a spiral form. You will
find these spirals to be 1/4 ohm per side, but you set
the dual sets together with 4 spirals, and then wire 3
of them in wye to produce magnetic cancellation. You
can use the scope for the 4th spiral to see the
superior induction the spirals will deliver. The same
voltage on the wires will appear on the sensor coil as
that on the wires themselves! This superior induction
means that possibly in 3 phase cancellation, each of
the wires of delivery have an extra emf made by mutual
induction by the adjacent phases in wye by induction.
In any case over twice the amperage/per impressed
voltage results.

Latest alternator 480 hz 3 phase spiral work shows
some very strange things. The spiral will recieve
induction very efficiently when placed adjacently to
another spiral conveying amperage in wye from the
alternator source. 

This can be wired for magnetic unity, (or so we would
think!) by reversing one of the wye connections as
shown at
36 volt variac operation in single line reversed wye.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/ALT/Dsc00022.jpg
20 volt variac, 3 phase cancellation referenced to
previous 5 
volt/div 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/ALT/Dsc00023.jpg

shows the magnetic cancellation effect, where
perplexingly over twice the value of conduction by
OHMs law with the 1/4 ohm spirals occurs.

Higher Amperage WYE spirals operation.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/224
contains some speculations on this matter.

Sincerely Harvey D Norris



=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 18:23:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31954;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:23:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:23:27 -0800
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 18:16:27 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <00ee01c1b1d8$f28158e0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"LogbY3.0.Cp7.VcTPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46051
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

For those readers who may be obsessed with getting the correct "spin" on at
least one aspect of cold fusion, the significance of a multi-particle (3
deuteron) interaction should not be overlooked.

This is somewhat of an evolution in thinking that began a decade ago with
finding both the error and the premonition in the thoughts of no less a genius
than Julian Schwinger. He then opined: "I note here the interesting possibility
that the 3He produced in the pd [proton-deuteron] fusion reaction may undergo a
secondary reaction with another deuteron of the lattice, yielding 5Li. The
latter is unstable against disintegration into a proton and 4He. Thus, protons
are not consumed in the overall reaction, which generates 4He."  Of course he
was later proven wrong on this when ultrapure deuterium was used - and protons
were eliminated as a potential reactant, but he may have gotten three glimmers
of the truth - first, that a three particle reaction is taking place, secondly
that it may involve lithium as a transition step, and thirdly that the time
frame
for the reaction is extended long enough for significant energy to be
transferred non-radiatively (although we shouldn't discount neutrino radiation).

In looking back over some old posts, it seems that  some years ago vortex
discussed the question: Is there such a thing as a natural D3 molecule?

Scott Little had posted: "I'm looking at the mass spectrum of some research
grade D2 gas I bought from Spectra Gases and I see a peak at mass 6!  It is
proportional to the D2 peak at mass 4 and the ratio of mass6/mass4 is 10^-4.  It
can't be tritium (i.e. T2) because there's no peak at mass 5 (DT) and, if it
were T, the 50 L cylinder would contain about 1 Curie of tritium! See this
spectrum at:
 http://www.eden.com/~little/ev/mass6.html

It comes and goes with the D2 peak and stays in proportion to it.  When I shut
off the D2 flow, both the 4 and 6 peaks disappear...but the peak at 12 remains
unchanged (I think it's C from pump oil molecule fragments) The C+ (i.e. 12)
peak is only about 3x higher in this spectrum...seems like C++ would be much
less likely than 1/3 of the C+ ...then again, there could be some synergistic
effect whereby the presence of D helps the C get into the ++ state....!

Robert I. Eachus then came through: At first I was just as stumped (by Scott's
observation), but then I remembered.  There is no such thing as D3, but D3+ is
fairly common. There is plenty reason to believe an H3 or D3 molecule can not
exist long term.  However, there is good reason to think a D3+ ion can exist
long term, due to the powerful affinity of the three deuterons for the two
electrons, with no prospect for shielding to occur for any particle to escape in
low energy conditions.

Interesting that it seems the heavier nucleus of D should make the formation of
D3+ more likely than H3+, in that the heavier D2 is closer in mass to H2O, which
has a major affinity for protons. The other necessary condition for creation of
a lot of D3+ ions is a low mean free path for the D+ ions freed at the hot anode
prior to the ejection hole.

Jean-Paul Biberian : May be you don't remember it, but in 1989, at the
University of Washington in Seattle, a grad student ran an experiment with an
electrolytic cell connected to a mass spec. At their great surprise they saw
mass 3, and assumed it was tritium or helium-3. However, soon after specialists
in mass spectroscopy confirmed that H3 exists, and the University retracted with
great embarrassment. So I think your mass 6 peak is most likely D3.

Final note: Horace Heffner then asked [in re: some further speculation],
"Another
question: if D3+ molecules might play a role in CF reaction in gas, why not
inside metals?"

Why not indeed?






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 18:32:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02553;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:30:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:30:03 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <104.10cbe59e.29973506 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:29:26 EST
Subject: Expert has tested My Patent today & Re: Joseph Newman Assistance
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: protech frii.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120
Resent-Message-ID: <"zsjzC1.0.kd.hiTPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46052
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

For starters, a respected electrical motor expert and possibly world know 
writer has tested the device at my location.  It was the device shown in the 
video and the results of that test will be posted ASAP at 
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html  Some of what he said I cannot 
understand - possibly because I am not an engineer, but maybe you can explain 
it what he said?


<You truly have the most bizarre view of patents and how the system works of 
anyone I <have ever encountered. 

Ron Wormus,

Get as crazy and slanderous as you feel like Ron - I "DO" have the patent and 
it really does provide certain rights.

Are you upset with me because I patented a particle accelerator type Plasma 
generator that just happens to have motor function?  What is your point, 
because it is clear that Jed cannot decide on a logical one for you to parrot?

How is my view of a patent bizarre?  Newman never was able to get his motor 
running faster than 100 RPM - I solved the problem of poor performance and 
"he" by contract, promised specific performance by agreement to terms 
discussed, I faxed him the commutator designs and he forgot to pay me as 
promised.  There is a word for that -- are you smart enough to figure out 
what it is?

So if the Worlds GREATEST Inventor (Newman) attempts for 30 years to make 
something work and cannot, Why do you, Ron-have a problem with ME, because I 
invented something different that just so happens to work on a motor Newman 
stole from Norm Biss?  You are the one that is screwed up - pal, defending a 
thief is a clear indication of your moral character - are you proud of this 
and do you also think this is honorable?

Good luck but stay away from me.

CA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 18:38:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04481;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:36:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:36:16 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:36:14 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Transparaent metal
In-Reply-To: <7l1b6uocsqkrqfqdm6p2m038eon4p9cncv 4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020209183411.12813C-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"m2HrR3.0.x51.VoTPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46053
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> When a metallic antenna intercepts a radio wave, the wave causes the
> free electrons in the metal to oscillate in sync with the wave.
> Since visible light is also EM radiation, if intense enough, it might
> have the same effect, particularly if of a single frequency.
> Now the metal is full of coherent electrons.
> Now what happens when the intensity is so high that the magnetic field
> portion of the wave saturates the metal? Does extra intensity above this
> level pass right on through?

Copper can become magnetically saturated?  Or aluminum?

Maybe iron would display some effect, but it was my understanding that
metal wires only interact with the electric part of an EM wave (causing
electric currents), and the magnetic part has too high a frequency to
cause domain-flipping, saturation, etc.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 19:27:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22916;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:24:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:24:25 -0800
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:32:28 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b88b6c2620d5 [12.21.211.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020209223117.3169C-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"IkgFs1.0.tb5.fVUPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46054
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.

	If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, then
this is not a bad beginning

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 23:28:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA18024;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:24:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:24:36 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88bce37613b [12.21.208.78]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:27:16 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer-Phillips and anomalous branching
Resent-Message-ID: <"hKMAe1.0.YP4.p0YPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46055
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:49 PM 2/9/2, Jones Beene wrote:

>If you will remember, Horace, I contacted him about this and got the message
>(from his assistant) that they ran neutron spectroscopy on their fusor and
>found
>that they were all the higher energy neutrons from D+D fusion. This has been
>confirmed by Richard Hull who has been doing a lot of Fusor work. But in these
>two setups, Miley and Hull's, we have normal high-energy 50/50 branching, as
>expected. They are getting center of mass collision energies of about 80
>keV due
>to "convergence zone" energy multiplication, (same as in sonofusion).


I had forgotten this.  Sounds vaguely familiar now though.


[snip]
>I tried to make it clear in the earlier
>prefaced remarks that there are likely to be several mechanisms at work in CF.


That certainly sounds reasonable!


[snip]
>IF YOU DON"T HAVE NEUTRONS (2.45 MeV neutrons)
>then you cannot have 3He unless the 3He comes from the decay of tritium.
>In both
>cases, without energetic neutrons there must exist anomalous branching.
>And that
>was the point of the remark that started the whole discussion.
[snip]

Sounds reasonable to me.  Also , I didn't realize you were saying the He4
was not coming from D + D -> He4, but rather from an n + Pd reaction.   The
CF electrodes examined at TAMU (Texas A&M), for example, showed evidence of
lots of unexplained LENR in the electrodes, with many of the reactions
likely not even involving neutrons.  I think the heavy element LENR stuff
is completely way off the charts as far as any easy explanation.  That may
well be true also for striping reactions where the D hits a Pd target, I
don't know.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  9 23:33:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA20218;
	Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:33:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:33:07 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b88bd1a9308c [12.21.209.140]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:36:05 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"GRljq2.0.qx4.o8YPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46056
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:32 PM 2/9/2, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.
>
>        If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, then
>this is not a bad beginning

If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown, or the
ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized, then it seems to be a very useful
product.  If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, sufficient
to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to our
long term farm production.  I think such unnecessary and frivoloous use use
of our topsoil will ultimately prove to be a bankrupt scheme.  We need to
conserve what topsoil we have remaining.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 04:23:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA28620;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:20:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:20:34 -0800
From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <7e.227d28a6.2997bf6d aol.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:19:57 EST
Subject: Please remove me or send instructions again
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120
Resent-Message-ID: <"INOPr.0.5_6.HMcPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46057
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 09:01:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19480;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:58:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:58:46 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88c57a3a75b [12.21.209.140]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:01:44 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Please remove me or send instructions again
Resent-Message-ID: <"PPtvy2.0.Dm4.6RgPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46058
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

*************************************************************************
Vortex-L subscription instructions:

  To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
       vortex-L-request eskimo.com
  Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header.  No
  quotes around "subscribe," of course.  You will get an automatic
  greeting message in response.  Once subscribed, send your email to
  vortex-L eskimo.com.

Unsubscribe:

  To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com
  with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.

Vortex-L digest mode:

  If you prefer "digest" mode messages, collections of messages up to
  40K total or every 2 days, then subscribe to the vortex-digest
  instead of to vortex-L.  Send a blank message to:
      vortex-digest-request eskimo.com
  Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header.
  Vortex-L forwards each received message within minutes or hours of
  receipt.  Vortex-digest collects messages, then sends them as single
  large chunks.  Vortex-L and Vortex-digest are two separate lists.  It is
  possible to subscribe to one or the other, or both.

Help:
  To obtain a copy of this file, send a blank email with the word
  "help" in the subject line.  Send it to vortex-L-request eskimo.com

Address Changes:

  If your email address changes, you can email billb eskimo.com to fix
  things.  Or, you can simply send a "subscribe" command while using
  your new account.  When your old account is turned off, the vortex-L
  bounce detector will unsubscribe it.  If you still have access to
  the older account address, you can unsubscribe yourself using
  that address.

*************************************************************************

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 09:09:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23426;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:08:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:08:52 -0800
Message-ID: <000f01c1b24d$16be9820$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Horace's Hypothesis
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:07:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"aCmlm3.0.yj5.aagPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46059
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Between Horace's "Expanded Hydrogen" hypothesis and Mills' Hydrino theory, loading
Lithium-7 with Hydrogen, Deuterium, or Tritium to make Lithium Hydride, Deuteride, or
Tritide, then melting it in a rotating tube to create a cavity with an insulated
refractory  anode protruding into the cavity to set up a high pressure arc in the
cavity (25 torr at 680 deg C) Might make a clean fusion reactor:

P = Li-7 --->  2 He-4 + 17.3 Mev

D + Li-7 ---> 2 He-4 + neutron + ? energy

T + Li-7 --->  2 He-4 + 2 neutrons + ? energy

And so on.

Or Keith could drain the Mercury out of that Ignitron he has, and substitute LiH.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 10:26:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27609;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:22:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:22:04 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.174]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:21:30 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F13HiVQ4hf02UEpFhu40000b019 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2002 18:21:31.0265 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3613710:01C1B25F]
Resent-Message-ID: <"NuVld.0.Gl6.CfhPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46060
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ethanol was tried in Brasil in a big way.  It has been abandoned. You can 
buy cars designed to run on it for very low prices.  The pollution from 
Ethanol production was a huge problem.  Cars ran poorly.

ADM is the largest Ethanol producer by far in the U.S. and makes terrific 
money from lobbying Congress to keep the price up.

All in all Ethanol has proved to be an excellent example of the potential of 
simplistic solutions to produce unexpected consequences.

Mark Goldes, CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.


>From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:36:05 -0900
>
>At 10:32 PM 2/9/2, John Schnurer wrote:
> >        Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.
> >
> >        If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, then
> >this is not a bad beginning
>
>If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown, or the
>ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized, then it seems to be a very useful
>product.  If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, sufficient
>to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to our
>long term farm production.  I think such unnecessary and frivoloous use use
>of our topsoil will ultimately prove to be a bankrupt scheme.  We need to
>conserve what topsoil we have remaining.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 10:33:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01303;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:33:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:33:06 -0800
Message-ID: <005701c1b258$da636de0$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer-Phillips and anomalous branching
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:31:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"DVLk73.0.HK.YphPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46061
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote,

>Hey, old J. Robert, the very icon of hot fusion, may have >in reality, been the
>first cold fusioneer...

>In 1935 Oppenheimer and Melba Phillips made a basic >contribution to quantum
>theory, discovering  what is known as the Oppenheimer->Phillips process.  It
>involves the nuclear break-up of deuterons in low energy >collisions that
>formerly had been thought far too weak for any nuclear >effect.

>The two physicists found that, when a deuteron is fired >into a target atom even
>weakly, the neutron can be stripped off the  proton and >penetrate the nucleus of
>the target.  It had been assumed that, since the deuteron >and  target nucleus
>are both positively charged, each would repel the other >except in high-energy
>collisions. The Oppenheimer-Phillips effect suggests that >different target
>electric polarization may, at low energies of impinging >deuterons, nullify
>coulomb repulsion and thereby change what would be the >normal branching ratio of
>the high energy fusion path.
>
>Wow, wonder why this newsbyte hasn't received more >play....

It did get quite a bit of scrutiny early on in the CF activity.

There are rumors that neutrons bound in Deuterium with ~2.23 Mev will come off in
discharges as Cold as a few ev.

This can be explained by a "Hydrino-like" uptake of an electron by the Proton End of
the Deuteron which makes
and unbound "Hydrino-Neutron" pair,freeing the neutron, thus energy is conserved.

That's why I'm pushing the "Cavitron" with it's high current low voltage arc discharge
in a cavity created by rotating liquid LiH, LiD,or  LiT in a cylinder.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

>Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 10:46:53 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07525;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:43:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:43:57 -0800
Message-ID: <006601c1b25a$5db79e40$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Three Deuteron Solitron Catalysed Fusion in Pd lattice
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:42:48 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"qPFg_1.0.Gr1.izhPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46062
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote,
>
>Why not a +Muon -Muon ? I guess the obvious answer is >that it would require >100
>MeV, but maybe that is what you get from three deuteron >fusion ;-}  OR
>maybe there is another variety of paired + and - light >lepton out there just
>waiting for Fred Sparber to describe ....

It's a lot more probable that a form of the well known Proton-Electron-Proton ---> D +
neutrino (PeP) reaction on the Sun occurs in the lattice.

However, a collision of a few ev could produce Light Lepton pairs.

Regards,   Frederick
>
Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 11:12:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20725;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:12:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:12:13 -0800
Message-ID: <008601c1b25e$5130b0e0$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <7l1b6uocsqkrqfqdm6p2m038eon4p9cncv 4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Transparaent metal
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:11:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"Pabo51.0.k35.COiPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46064
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 2:36 PM
Subject: Transparaent metal

Robin wrote,


> Hi,
> 
> When a metallic antenna intercepts a radio wave, the wave causes the
> free electrons in the metal to oscillate in sync with the wave.
> Since visible light is also EM radiation, if intense enough, it might
> have the same effect, particularly if of a single frequency.
> Now the metal is full of coherent electrons.
> Now what happens when the intensity is so high that the magnetic field
> portion of the wave saturates the metal? Does extra intensity above this
> level pass right on through?

Lasers usually melt metals under those conditions.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 11:15:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18817;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:08:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:08:26 -0800
Message-ID: <007801c1b25d$c9eade80$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:07:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZuXJt1.0.wb4.gKiPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46063
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote,
>
>Aluminum pryrolisis should have no atmospheric emssiion >at all, except
>possibly water vapor  The aluminum oxide is later >recovered, reduced and
>recycled.

Come on Horace, it takes 10 Kw-Hr (7 volts at 1430 ampere-hrs) plus a pound of carbon
to produce a pound of aluminum metal.

You can react aluminum in an alkali (NaOH-KOH) water bath at 150 F (a water soluble
aluminate catalyst is formed)to produce hydrogen:

2 Al (54 lbs) + 6 H2O ---> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2 (6 lbs)

But, I don't think you want to spend 540 Kw-Hrs on producing 6 lbs of hydrogen that
can be produced
with 150 Kw-hrs by electrolyzing water.

OTOH you can heat and react coal "in situ" with O2 and Steam to produce synthesis gas
(nCO + 2nH2) and make methanol in plants that are in operation producing 5,000 Tons of
Methanol and/or SNG  (CH4) daily.

The technology and infrastructure are in place, its all a matter of Politics.

Regards,    Frederick

Regards,

Horace Heffner




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 11:29:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26666;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:28:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:28:44 -0800
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:21:22 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Horace's Hypothesis
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <007501c1b268$2d218940$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <000f01c1b24d$16be9820$248f85ce computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Nysfr1.0.ZW6.idiPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46065
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>

> ...loading Lithium-7 with Hydrogen, Deuterium, or Tritium to make Lithium
Hydride, Deuteride, or Tritide, then melting it in a rotating tube to create a
cavity with an insulated  refractory  anode protruding into the cavity to set up
a high pressure arc in the cavity (25 torr at 680 deg C) Might make a clean
fusion reactor:

The parameters don't seem all that different from Vince Cockeram's hydrogen/
potassium tube reactor that he recently commented on - where he witnessed a
"runaway" reaction that he couldn't repeat.

I guess if one wanted to build a fairly simple experiment to cover all the
bases, one might start the high current setup you suggest, however, is the
rotation absolutely necessary ? What about a stationary flat dishlike geometry
to provide maximum cathode surface area? Start with hydrogen and lithium,
compare that with H and strontium, and then move on to D+Li, and  D+strontium.

If both P&F and Mills are correct then there would likely be a synergy in
combining the two. Li and Sr shouldn't be reactive together. The EUV emission of
H+Sr might serve to catalyze the stripping of some of the D - and as 6Li has a
thermal cross section over 50 times more than Sr, there wouldn't be much
parasitic loss there.

If your an optimist get hold of plenty of paraffin to slow down those 14 MeV
neuts once the tritium begins to build up...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 12:18:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15798;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:16:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:16:06 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Transparaent metal
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:16:06 -0800
Message-ID: <000001c1b26f$c5f27600$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <7l1b6uocsqkrqfqdm6p2m038eon4p9cncv 4ax.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"YGNrT1.0.ks3.5KjPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46066
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you heat Cast Iron/Steel hot enough,
It will become transparent. Just before it melts.
I have observed this in a cast iron pot belly woodstove, using Presto-logs,
and Dried maple hardwood.
I have also heard of this being observed in Diesel Semi trucks, seeing
through the turbocharger when it gets hot enough.

Materials appear Clear or transparent, because a very small percentage of
the Photonic wave energy is reflected away.

We can "see" water, because on the surface, at a low , all the light is
reflected away.

So in reality, transparency is only a limited effect.

In metals, which are used as antenna's and reflectors, are excellent at
reflecting EM radiation.

However, Antenna design is still somewhat Black Magic.

For instance, if you have a mirror, reflects a high portion of visible
light, but some forms of light ( infared) will pass thorugh the mirror.

In a parabolic dish radio antenna used to transmit a signal, materials are
used to be reflective of the frequency used.

However, due to the "wave" nature of an EM signal, there is also a signal on
the back of the dish, which is there because the EM signal "flows" around
this dish.

This can be a problem in antenna design, because there may be a high signal
level received at right angles to the antenna and pick up interference from
another site.

Also, you may have seen "grid" type antenna's. You would see these in you
newer car's window, if you have "onStar" . You would also see these on large
satellite dishes.

To the EM wave that is tuned for these frequencies, this looks like a solid.

Anyway, To get a Transparent metal, is easily done.

Most of your high quality sunglasses, Building windows ect, have a very thin
layer of metal deposited on them.

To get a large panel of thick metal to be transparent, you would have to not
have any crystalline structures in the metal, and turn it to a "glass".

Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 12:36 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Transparaent metal

Hi,

When a metallic antenna intercepts a radio wave, the wave causes the
free electrons in the metal to oscillate in sync with the wave.
Since visible light is also EM radiation, if intense enough, it might
have the same effect, particularly if of a single frequency.
Now the metal is full of coherent electrons.
Now what happens when the intensity is so high that the magnetic field
portion of the wave saturates the metal? Does extra intensity above this
level pass right on through?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 12:28:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19207;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:25:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:25:22 -0800
Message-ID: <00c401c1b268$8933c9a0$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <000f01c1b24d$16be9820$248f85ce computer> <007501c1b268$2d218940$8837fea9@computer>
Subject: Re: Horace's Hypothesis
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:24:14 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"3oFFO2.0.yh4.oSjPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46067
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Horace's Hypothesis

Jones wrote,


> From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>
> > ...loading Lithium-7 with Hydrogen, Deuterium, or Tritium to make Lithium
> Hydride, Deuteride, or Tritide, then melting it in a rotating tube to create a
> cavity with an insulated  refractory  anode protruding into the cavity to set up
> a high pressure arc in the cavity (25 torr at 680 deg C) Might make a clean
> fusion reactor:
>
> The parameters don't seem all that different from Vince Cockeram's hydrogen/
> potassium tube reactor that he recently commented on - where he witnessed a
> "runaway" reaction that he couldn't repeat.

Having suggested and shared the equipment expense for that experiment, I'm quite
familiar with it. :-)
>
> I guess if one wanted to build a fairly simple experiment to cover all the
> bases, one might start the high current setup you suggest, however, is the
> rotation absolutely necessary ?

Yes, so you are centrifuging the molten LiH that was short of filling the tube, to the
walls to create the molten LiH "blanket" and the axial cavity so that an enormous
amount of starting current isn't required.

>What about a stationary flat dishlike geometry
> to provide maximum cathode surface area?

You need that cavity, and you can buy 304 or 316 Stainless tube cheaper.

>Start with hydrogen and lithium,
> compare that with H and strontium, and then move on to D+Li, and  D+strontium.

A dab of Mercury wouldn't hurt, either.
>
> If both P&F and Mills are correct then there would likely be a synergy in
> combining the two. Li and Sr shouldn't be reactive together. The EUV emission of
> H+Sr might serve to catalyze the stripping of some of the D - and as 6Li has a
> thermal cross section over 50 times more than Sr, there wouldn't be much
> parasitic loss there.

You will be hard put to find 6Li on the market. It is tied up for Tritium production:
n + 6Li ---> He4 + T  + energy
>
> If your an optimist get hold of plenty of paraffin to slow down those 14 MeV
> neuts once the tritium begins to build up...

Nah, just rotate it in a tap water filled "steam boiler" made from 12 inch schedule 80
pipe, for neutron moderation and high pressure steam production.

Regards,       Frederick
>
> Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 12:32:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22411;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:31:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:31:58 -0800
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:40:03 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <F13HiVQ4hf02UEpFhu40000b019 hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020210153209.17288E-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"uYR9L1.0._T5.zYjPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46068
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Mark,

	What is-are-were the specific issues with Ethanol?

	I think just about every well educated scientist has seen poor
execution of ideas.  In the pre 1970s oil embargo work there were many
"reasons" why an External combustions and-or steam based engine could NOT
work well.... during the massive research in the face of HIGH OIL PRICES
most of the "problems" were resolved.  It is a real education for any new
energy oriented person to read the non-data based mass of information from
this period.
	This period has resulted in many types of valid and useful energy
storage and manipulation methods.  There are some which we continue to use
today... the super-capacitor is Just One example.

	


On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Goldes wrote:

> Ethanol was tried in Brasil in a big way.  It has been abandoned. You can 
> buy cars designed to run on it for very low prices.  The pollution from 
> Ethanol production was a huge problem.  Cars ran poorly.
> 
> ADM is the largest Ethanol producer by far in the U.S. and makes terrific 
> money from lobbying Congress to keep the price up.
> 
> All in all Ethanol has proved to be an excellent example of the potential of 
> simplistic solutions to produce unexpected consequences.
> 
> Mark Goldes, CEO
> Magnetic Power Inc.
> 
> 
> >From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
> >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:36:05 -0900
> >
> >At 10:32 PM 2/9/2, John Schnurer wrote:
> > >        Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.
> > >
> > >        If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, then
> > >this is not a bad beginning
> >
> >If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown, or the
> >ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized, then it seems to be a very useful
> >product.  If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, sufficient
> >to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to our
> >long term farm production.  I think such unnecessary and frivoloous use use
> >of our topsoil will ultimately prove to be a bankrupt scheme.  We need to
> >conserve what topsoil we have remaining.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Horace Heffner
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 13:22:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08311;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:19:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:19:45 -0800
Message-ID: <00da01c1b270$22233ae0$248f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020210153209.17288E-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:35 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"dL4PO.0.m12.nFkPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46069
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced

This is one gold reason that ethanol from food crops isn't hacking it John.  :-)

http://www.commoncause.org/publications/fuelsgold_toc.htm

Almost a quarter-century of $1.00/gallon subsidies is enough proof of that.

OTOH, ethanol produced by acid or enzyme hydrolysis of cellulosic biomass wastes
(wood, corn stover, and straws) doesn't need to be subsidized. This was done in
Germany in WW II.
Regards,  Frederick


John wrote:
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> What is-are-were the specific issues with Ethanol?
>
> I think just about every well educated scientist has seen poor
> execution of ideas.  In the pre 1970s oil embargo work there were many
> "reasons" why an External combustions and-or steam based engine could NOT
> work well.... during the massive research in the face of HIGH OIL PRICES
> most of the "problems" were resolved.  It is a real education for any new
> energy oriented person to read the non-data based mass of information from
> this period.
> This period has resulted in many types of valid and useful energy
> storage and manipulation methods.  There are some which we continue to use
> today... the super-capacitor is Just One example.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Goldes wrote:
>
> > Ethanol was tried in Brasil in a big way.  It has been abandoned. You can
> > buy cars designed to run on it for very low prices.  The pollution from
> > Ethanol production was a huge problem.  Cars ran poorly.
> >
> > ADM is the largest Ethanol producer by far in the U.S. and makes terrific
> > money from lobbying Congress to keep the price up.
> >
> > All in all Ethanol has proved to be an excellent example of the potential of
> > simplistic solutions to produce unexpected consequences.
> >
> > Mark Goldes, CEO
> > Magnetic Power Inc.
> >
> >
> > >From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
> > >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:36:05 -0900
> > >
> > >At 10:32 PM 2/9/2, John Schnurer wrote:
> > > >        Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.
> > > >
> > > >        If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, then
> > > >this is not a bad beginning
> > >
> > >If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown, or the
> > >ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized, then it seems to be a very useful
> > >product.  If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, sufficient
> > >to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to our
> > >long term farm production.  I think such unnecessary and frivoloous use use
> > >of our topsoil will ultimately prove to be a bankrupt scheme.  We need to
> > >conserve what topsoil we have remaining.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >Horace Heffner
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 14:23:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09212;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:19:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:19:29 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.101]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:56 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F16PRZ0LbDNwLM675ux00001cf3 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2002 22:18:57.0005 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE80A1D0:01C1B280]
Resent-Message-ID: <"cWbEj2.0.sF2.n7lPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46070
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John,

Car and Taxi owners disliked Ethenol due to lack of acceleration on hills.  
These were factory built cars designed to run on Ethenol, and apparently the 
problems were never fully resolved.  Waste was an enormous problem where the 
Ethenol was refined.  Water pollution was a very large factor.

ADM, the big gun in Ethenol production here, was the subject of a major 
scandal a few years back.  It has always seemed to me to be a firm where 
ethics are a minor concern.  Their sponsorship of the PBS News Hour is 
ironic.

Mark


>From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
>Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:35 -0600
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 2:40 PM
>Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
>
>This is one gold reason that ethanol from food crops isn't hacking it John. 
>  :-)
>
>http://www.commoncause.org/publications/fuelsgold_toc.htm
>
>Almost a quarter-century of $1.00/gallon subsidies is enough proof of that.
>
>OTOH, ethanol produced by acid or enzyme hydrolysis of cellulosic biomass 
>wastes
>(wood, corn stover, and straws) doesn't need to be subsidized. This was 
>done in
>Germany in WW II.
>Regards,  Frederick
>
>
>John wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mark,
> >
> > What is-are-were the specific issues with Ethanol?
> >
> > I think just about every well educated scientist has seen poor
> > execution of ideas.  In the pre 1970s oil embargo work there were many
> > "reasons" why an External combustions and-or steam based engine could 
>NOT
> > work well.... during the massive research in the face of HIGH OIL PRICES
> > most of the "problems" were resolved.  It is a real education for any 
>new
> > energy oriented person to read the non-data based mass of information 
>from
> > this period.
> > This period has resulted in many types of valid and useful energy
> > storage and manipulation methods.  There are some which we continue to 
>use
> > today... the super-capacitor is Just One example.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Goldes wrote:
> >
> > > Ethanol was tried in Brasil in a big way.  It has been abandoned. You 
>can
> > > buy cars designed to run on it for very low prices.  The pollution 
>from
> > > Ethanol production was a huge problem.  Cars ran poorly.
> > >
> > > ADM is the largest Ethanol producer by far in the U.S. and makes 
>terrific
> > > money from lobbying Congress to keep the price up.
> > >
> > > All in all Ethanol has proved to be an excellent example of the 
>potential of
> > > simplistic solutions to produce unexpected consequences.
> > >
> > > Mark Goldes, CEO
> > > Magnetic Power Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
> > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
> > > >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:36:05 -0900
> > > >
> > > >At 10:32 PM 2/9/2, John Schnurer wrote:
> > > > >        Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.
> > > > >
> > > > >        If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, 
>then
> > > > >this is not a bad beginning
> > > >
> > > >If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown, 
>or the
> > > >ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized, then it seems to be a very 
>useful
> > > >product.  If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, 
>sufficient
> > > >to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to 
>our
> > > >long term farm production.  I think such unnecessary and frivoloous 
>use use
> > > >of our topsoil will ultimately prove to be a bankrupt scheme.  We 
>need to
> > > >conserve what topsoil we have remaining.
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >Horace Heffner
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> >
>




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 14:29:37 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14956;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:28:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:28:37 -0800
Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset="iso-8859-1"
From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
Organization: ISUS
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Transparaent metal
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:27:58 -0700
X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1]
References: <000001c1b26f$c5f27600$0201a8c0 kitty>
In-Reply-To: <000001c1b26f$c5f27600$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-Id: <20020210222805.INSX6996.lakemtao02.mgt.cox.net there>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ezysj2.0.cf3.KGlPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46071
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

It wasn't too long ago researchers created a practical, thick, true 
transparent metal by layering dialectric thin films with metal thin films on 
the order of half wavelength of light.  The theory says it should work and it 
did :-) .

Hoyt Stearns,
Scottsdale, Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 14:54:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27927;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:51:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:51:09 -0800
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:59:13 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:  engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <00da01c1b270$22233ae0$248f85ce computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020210174346.22775A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"i2XyD3.0.Cq6.TblPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46072
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Fred ...and folks,

	I am not the best person as to what is correct with government, or
politics.
	That ethanol production does not need to be subsidized is GOOD...

	That is can be produced cheaply without govermental help is
GOOD...
	
	If someone wants to find a way to defeat something, they
probably can.


	My main point regarding Ethanol as a fuel is as follows:

	1]	We should be able to get it or produce it.

	Part of the post below indicates this is do-able.

	2]	Ethanol can be used as a fuel.  At least I am reasonably
sure it can because I have seen it burn.

	A)	Some contributors tell us this did not work in Brazil.
		Some contributors tell us this caused pollution....
			I do not doubt this.

	B)	NOW:	Does ethanol ALWAYS produce pollution under all 
	conditions?

	2]	I assert with proper and appropriate application and
engineering Ethanol may serve as a renewable, brewable, growable fuel...
	..... It may be burned directly or passed through other processes
	and then caused to provide energy.

	3]	Some contributors will probably tell us this won't work,
no matter what.

	4]	In my opinion, the positive object of science and applied
science is to find a way to make things work.

	We do Not have to look Far for defeatism.


On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
> 
> This is one gold reason that ethanol from food crops isn't hacking it
> John.  :-) 
> 
> http://www.commoncause.org/publications/fuelsgold_toc.htm
> 
> Almost a quarter-century of $1.00/gallon subsidies is enough proof of that.
> 
> OTOH, ethanol produced by acid or enzyme hydrolysis of cellulosic biomass wastes
> (wood, corn stover, and straws) doesn't need to be subsidized. This was done in
> Germany in WW II.
> Regards,  Frederick
> 
> 
> John wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mark,
> >
> > What is-are-were the specific issues with Ethanol?
> >
> > I think just about every well educated scientist has seen poor
> > execution of ideas.  In the pre 1970s oil embargo work there were many
> > "reasons" why an External combustions and-or steam based engine could NOT
> > work well.... during the massive research in the face of HIGH OIL PRICES
> > most of the "problems" were resolved.  It is a real education for any new
> > energy oriented person to read the non-data based mass of information from
> > this period.
> > This period has resulted in many types of valid and useful energy
> > storage and manipulation methods.  There are some which we continue to use
> > today... the super-capacitor is Just One example.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Goldes wrote:
> >
> > > Ethanol was tried in Brasil in a big way.  It has been abandoned. You can
> > > buy cars designed to run on it for very low prices.  The pollution from
> > > Ethanol production was a huge problem.  Cars ran poorly.
> > >
> > > ADM is the largest Ethanol producer by far in the U.S. and makes terrific
> > > money from lobbying Congress to keep the price up.
> > >
> > > All in all Ethanol has proved to be an excellent example of the potential of
> > > simplistic solutions to produce unexpected consequences.
> > >
> > > Mark Goldes, CEO
> > > Magnetic Power Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
> > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
> > > >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:36:05 -0900
> > > >
> > > >At 10:32 PM 2/9/2, John Schnurer wrote:
> > > > >        Ethanol is a fine fuel and can power cars with minor mods.
> > > > >
> > > > >        If it is subsidized like sugar, oil, and the lit goes on, then
> > > > >this is not a bad beginning
> 
> > >
> > > >If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown, or the
> > > >ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized, then it seems to be a very useful
> > > >product.  If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, sufficient
> > > >to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to our
> > > >long term farm production.  I think such unnecessary and frivoloous use use
> > > >of our topsoil will ultimately prove to be a bankrupt scheme.  We need to
> > > >conserve what topsoil we have remaining.
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >Horace Heffner
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 17:04:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27191;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:00:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:00:49 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b88cc1faa359 [12.21.208.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:03:45 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"AKH4x.0.me6.1VnPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46073
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:21 AM 2/10/2, Mark Goldes wrote:
>Ethanol was tried in Brasil in a big way.  It has been abandoned. You can
>buy cars designed to run on it for very low prices.  The pollution from
>Ethanol production was a huge problem.  Cars ran poorly.
>
>ADM is the largest Ethanol producer by far in the U.S. and makes terrific
>money from lobbying Congress to keep the price up.
>
>All in all Ethanol has proved to be an excellent example of the potential of
>simplistic solutions to produce unexpected consequences.

At 2:18 PM 2/10/2, Mark Goldes wrote:
>John,
>
>Car and Taxi owners disliked Ethenol due to lack of acceleration on hills.
>These were factory built cars designed to run on Ethenol, and apparently the
>problems were never fully resolved.  Waste was an enormous problem where the
>Ethenol was refined.  Water pollution was a very large factor.


I seems possible the polution problems associated with synthesis migth be
prevented by technical means, but then that solution becomes a cost/benefit
problem.

As for the acceleration problem, use of ethanol or similar synthsized fuels
in hybrid autos would cure it.  Periods of high acceleration are handled
primarily with the battery, with the internal combustion running at a
neatly constant speed.

I think the major problem would be pollution from the internal combustion
engine itself, plus, of course the unavoidable increased carbon emission
...


>
>ADM, the big gun in Ethenol production here, was the subject of a major
>scandal a few years back.  It has always seemed to me to be a firm where
>ethics are a minor concern.  Their sponsorship of the PBS News Hour is
>ironic.

... and the possibility of rape of the land under emergency pretense.

Methane conversion, typically costing (at one time) about $2000, seems like
the most immediately executable strategy, with methane hybrids following on
a close second.   New hybrid gasoline cars are already here.  If hydrogen
fuel cells or hybrids could gain a major market share it would be a real
blessing, but this apparently can not happen very soon.  This raises the
obvious question of the possibility of conversion of gasoline hybrids to
methane.  It shoud be easier and cheaper than other conversions due to the
low fuel milage and small engine size of the hybrid.

I certainly agree that, in implementation, any strategy can been executed
poorly and, whether badly or well executed, unexpected results can occur.
However, bad unexpected results are most likely the result of badly
executed strategy, and thus susceptable to eventual remedy.

In any event, discarding research on the multitude of options available and
concentrating on a distant pie in the sky scheme seems to be the worst of
all possible stratgies.  The bad consequence is immediately forseeable.
What's wrong with us?  Do we have blinders on?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 18:49:37 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12564;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:44:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:44:37 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:43:59 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <dobe6u4jo0rrjah59is3ubcekmkp53hkg6 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b88b7372d7ad [12.21.208.78]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b88b7372d7ad [12.21.208.78]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA12512
Resent-Message-ID: <"j1ODk.0.843.K0pPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46074
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:53:50 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>Aluminum pryrolisis should have no atmospheric emssiion at all, except
>possibly water vapor  The aluminum oxide is later recovered, reduced and
>recycled.  It is notable that pyrolisis is not the only means to utilize
>the high energy content of aluminum.  An air-aluminum battery could
>possibly be developed.
[snip]
AFAIK it was. Decades ago.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 19:04:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20535;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:04:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:04:06 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Transparaent metal
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:03:30 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <pqce6u4t0h41rlahtdnetp2ora62f62v3k 4ax.com>
References: <7l1b6uocsqkrqfqdm6p2m038eon4p9cncv 4ax.com> <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020209183411.12813C-100000@eskimo.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020209183411.12813C-100000 eskimo.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA20508
Resent-Message-ID: <"4ykxS.0.n05.cIpPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46075
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  William Beaty's message of Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:36:14 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>Copper can become magnetically saturated?  Or aluminum?

I don't know. Perhaps they are already completely saturated?
However the fact that light doesn't pass through them would seem to
indicate that I'm probably chasing a red herring ;)
>
>Maybe iron would display some effect, but it was my understanding that
>metal wires only interact with the electric part of an EM wave (causing
>electric currents), and the magnetic part has too high a frequency to
>cause domain-flipping, saturation, etc.
[snip]
I think that if you rotate the axis of your antenna at 90º to a
polarized wave, it will react to the other component of the signal.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 20:20:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27197;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:17:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:17:52 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Please remove me or send instructions again
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:17:53 -0800
Message-ID: <000101c1b2b3$13eb4380$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b88c57a3a75b [12.21.209.140]>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"AFZvR2.0.le6.lNqPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46076
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I guess he couldn't take the heat...... haha

Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 9:02 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Please remove me or send instructions again

*************************************************************************
Vortex-L subscription instructions:

  To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
       vortex-L-request eskimo.com
  Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header.  No
  quotes around "subscribe," of course.  You will get an automatic
  greeting message in response.  Once subscribed, send your email to
  vortex-L eskimo.com.

Unsubscribe:

  To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com
  with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.

Vortex-L digest mode:

  If you prefer "digest" mode messages, collections of messages up to
  40K total or every 2 days, then subscribe to the vortex-digest
  instead of to vortex-L.  Send a blank message to:
      vortex-digest-request eskimo.com
  Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header.
  Vortex-L forwards each received message within minutes or hours of
  receipt.  Vortex-digest collects messages, then sends them as single
  large chunks.  Vortex-L and Vortex-digest are two separate lists.  It is
  possible to subscribe to one or the other, or both.

Help:
  To obtain a copy of this file, send a blank email with the word
  "help" in the subject line.  Send it to vortex-L-request eskimo.com

Address Changes:

  If your email address changes, you can email billb eskimo.com to fix
  things.  Or, you can simply send a "subscribe" command while using
  your new account.  When your old account is turned off, the vortex-L
  bounce detector will unsubscribe it.  If you still have access to
  the older account address, you can unsubscribe yourself using
  that address.

*************************************************************************

Regards,

Horace Heffner         



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 20:21:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28961;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:20:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:20:40 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Transparaent metal
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:20:40 -0800
Message-ID: <000201c1b2b3$773b7540$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <pqce6u4t0h41rlahtdnetp2ora62f62v3k 4ax.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"-5wBg1.0.O47.MQqPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46077
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you Rotate a polarized antenna 90 degrees to a polarized beam, you lower
the signal
by only 20dB. Only If the signal strength lowered is less than background
noise, the signal will "disappear"

Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 7:04 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Transparaent metal

In reply to  William Beaty's message of Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:36:14 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>Copper can become magnetically saturated?  Or aluminum?

I don't know. Perhaps they are already completely saturated?
However the fact that light doesn't pass through them would seem to
indicate that I'm probably chasing a red herring ;)
>
>Maybe iron would display some effect, but it was my understanding that
>metal wires only interact with the electric part of an EM wave (causing
>electric currents), and the magnetic part has too high a frequency to
>cause domain-flipping, saturation, etc.
[snip]
I think that if you rotate the axis of your antenna at 90º to a
polarized wave, it will react to the other component of the signal.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 10 23:37:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09078;
	Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:34:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:34:55 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b88d24c9da6b [12.21.209.93]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:37:37 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Resent-Message-ID: <"aPU4g.0.hD2.VGtPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46078
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:43 PM 2/11/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:53:50 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>Aluminum pryrolisis should have no atmospheric emssiion at all, except
>>possibly water vapor  The aluminum oxide is later recovered, reduced and
>>recycled.  It is notable that pyrolisis is not the only means to utilize
>>the high energy content of aluminum.  An air-aluminum battery could
>>possibly be developed.
>[snip]
>AFAIK it was. Decades ago.


Any idea if it worked OK?  I suppose not, else they would be in common use.
I also suppose that is not proof that an efficent one could not be
feasible.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 06:15:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15761;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:08:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:08:36 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211090000.0302dec0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:08:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <aq7b6u051oup6dgdacgvlnsrppjkmc64ps 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220 pop.mindspring.com>
 <v01530501b88657b20019 [12.21.211.92]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"CifNi.0.As3.Z1zPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46079
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:


> >favorable to gasoline at $3 per gallon. It would require a huge investment
> >in infrastructure and pipelines, which would take many years to build.
>[snip]
>Why would it require any investment in pipelines? Electric power could
>be used to produce hydrogen through electrolysis directly on site at
>"gas" stations, all of which already have both power and water
>connections.

It would require pipelines because most wind resources are in states like 
North Dakota, far from population centers in California and on the East 
Coast. See:

http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 06:32:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23889;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:28:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:28:23 -0800
Message-ID: <20020211142816.58383.qmail web11203.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:28:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Please remove me or send instructions again
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <000101c1b2b3$13eb4380$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"PnW1U3.0.Br5.7KzPy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46080
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I had the same problem.  About a month back I had too much
going on  (actually still do) to keep up with this list.  Could
not get it shut off using the requests server? ?  Anyway I am
still here and my workload is starting to calm down but it
would be a good idea to check out the requests server and let
us all know if there is a change  (or maybe I missed that)  


--- Matthew Rogers <matt accelnet.net> wrote:
> I guess he couldn't take the heat...... haha
> 
> Matthew Rogers
> d2shound msn.com
> matt accelnet.net
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 9:02 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Please remove me or send instructions again
> 
>
*************************************************************************
> Vortex-L subscription instructions:
> 
>   To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
>        vortex-L-request eskimo.com
>   Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the
> header.  No
>   quotes around "subscribe," of course.  You will get an
> automatic
>   greeting message in response.  Once subscribed, send your
> email to
>   vortex-L eskimo.com.
> 
> Unsubscribe:
> 
>   To unsubscribe, send a blank message to
> vortex-L-request eskimo.com
>   with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
> 
> Vortex-L digest mode:
> 
>   If you prefer "digest" mode messages, collections of
> messages up to
>   40K total or every 2 days, then subscribe to the
> vortex-digest
>   instead of to vortex-L.  Send a blank message to:
>       vortex-digest-request eskimo.com
>   Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the
> header.
>   Vortex-L forwards each received message within minutes or
> hours of
>   receipt.  Vortex-digest collects messages, then sends them
> as single
>   large chunks.  Vortex-L and Vortex-digest are two separate
> lists.  It is
>   possible to subscribe to one or the other, or both.
> 
> Help:
>   To obtain a copy of this file, send a blank email with the
> word
>   "help" in the subject line.  Send it to
> vortex-L-request eskimo.com
> 
> Address Changes:
> 
>   If your email address changes, you can email
> billb eskimo.com to fix
>   things.  Or, you can simply send a "subscribe" command
> while using
>   your new account.  When your old account is turned off, the
> vortex-L
>   bounce detector will unsubscribe it.  If you still have
> access to
>   the older account address, you can unsubscribe yourself
> using
>   that address.
> 
>
*************************************************************************
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner         
> 
> 
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 07:47:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20165;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:32:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:32:17 -0800
Message-ID: <001701c1b313$5f420fc0$7d0ed5d5 eldostellucci>
From: "Eldo Stellucci" <asklepios interfree.it>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220 pop.mindspring.com> <v01530501b88657b20019@[12.21.211.92]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020206092655.00b01220@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020211090000.0302dec0@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:47:03 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Disposition-Notification-To: "Eldo Stellucci" <asklepios interfree.it>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"ETIfp.0._w4.1G-Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46081
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Please unsubscribe me
Eldo Stellucci
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced


> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>
> > >favorable to gasoline at $3 per gallon. It would require a huge
investment
> > >in infrastructure and pipelines, which would take many years to build.
> >[snip]
> >Why would it require any investment in pipelines? Electric power could
> >be used to produce hydrogen through electrolysis directly on site at
> >"gas" stations, all of which already have both power and water
> >connections.
>
> It would require pipelines because most wind resources are in states like
> North Dakota, far from population centers in California and on the East
> Coast. See:
>
> http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 08:28:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17239;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:27:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:27:11 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b88d9985ca60 [12.21.209.186]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:30:08 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Fw: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
Resent-Message-ID: <"K4Pgw.0.HD4.U3_Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46083
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:49 PM 2/10/2, Colin Quinney wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>After the pleasure of reading your AEH (again), I couldn't help but see some
>uncanny similarities to chukanovenergy:
>http://www.chukanovenergy.com/indexx.htm
>
>Colin Quinney


Thanks for this remarkable reference.  Though the web site has little
significant information, it does reference the patent 5,537,009, in which
there is a very marked similarity of principle to the AEH, especially in
the areas where the inventor speculates about ioniztion in liquid or solid
state, but has no specific device.  It is of special interest that the
patent was filed in 1994, way before I wrote the AEH.

On the other hand, the inventor seems to be completely enamoured with ball
lightning and the gas phase.  Although atomic expansion energy extraction
is feasible on a small scale in gas/plasma phase, the inventor seems to
have almost completely missed the importance of very high pressure to
creating a large COP.  His recommended implementation should have one of
the lowest COP's feasible. In fact, given the low efficiency of generating
the recommended above 1 MHz waveguide energy to initiate the recommended
states, and the need to hold the ionized statee for a long period, it
strikes me as nearly impossible to break even.

Given the wide variety of references broadly cited, it appears that the
inventor has simply quoted a potpourris of facts pointing to free energy
and unexplained physics and not really hit the nail on the head, so to
speak.  It is certainly true he has not hit the nail on the head
design-wise.  As he points out, theory is not important to the (method)
patent, only the efficacy of the method, which it appears to me, however,
is also not well established.  The patent office is not responsible for
proving a device actully works or is commercially viable.  It is of further
note that the patented free energy devices have not yet gone to market,
even though the patent issued in 1996, and that the company is now focusing
on electron accelerators, an enterprise based on more well established
(superconcdutor) physics I would think.

While the AEH is a somewaht fanciful intellectual exploration intended to
inspire research and conversation and thought, a patent has a much more
rigorous purpose I think and 5,537,009 seems to come up a bit short.  It is
most remarkable that the intended benfit of the patent is free energy!  I
thought there was a PTO policy against such patents.  Maybe this slipped
the examiner's attention!  I say bravo to Chukanov for that coup!  What a
handy citation for CF folks.

In any case, in spite of the fact my thinking in this area is not as
original as I had thought, this is a most remarkable patent from many
standpoints.  Thanks!

I think the existence of such a patent, despite its notable inadequacies,
may be most auspicious for a positive outcome from research based on the
AEH principles, and the patent itself may yet turn out to be of some value.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 08:32:41 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16252;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:24:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:24:58 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:17:52 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Quadrupole device and Gow magnetron
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <001901c1b317$a900b4a0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"1AImE3.0.jz3.P1_Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46082
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Greetings,

If one begins with the task of trying to achieve a robust level of "nuclear but
non-thermonuclear" reactions in a low energy deuterium plasma, aka "warm
fusion," then there a number of approaches outside of, or in addition to, normal
CF techniques that should be looked at, one of which Horace Heffner outlined in
his proposal for a Quadrupole deuteron neutron stripping device and another of
which is comes from Fred Sparber's high current plasma focus ideas.

The Quadrupole stripping device is basically a NMR resonance reactor that
implements the brilliant suggestion of Robert Eachus: that flipping the spin of
the proton WRT its loosely bound neutron, if it can be done, would actually
result in a slightly negative binding energy, which could then lead to fission
in the D2 nucleus.  It has been four years since this suggestion and it is a
shame that no well-equipped experimenter has taken real notice of the
implications. I don't fall into the category of well-equipped, by any means, but
at least I did go to the trouble of acquiring and converting a radar magnetron
tube for that purpose before loosing interest and going off on yet another
tangent that led nowhere.

But in rethinking the situation after rereading Horace's post, I think I know
why an axial magnetron wouldn't have worked anyway and also have found
references to a design change that could lead to the optimization of the what
should be called the "polarization" principle of Oppenheimer-Phillips
"stripping,"  which seems to be another way of accomplishing the kind of spin
flipping the Eachus was aiming for.

One reference is from Peter and Neal Graneau, "Infinite Energy Magazine"  #27
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/FEATURE/FEATR/threedec.html
The other from the "Bell Jar" site:
www.tiac.net/users/shansen/belljar/634neut.pdf

These are in reference to reclassified material from secret research in1955-58
at the Berkeley lab, where they found neutrons in deuterium plasmas that could
not possibly have been produced by thermal collisions. Side note: the Graneaus'
go on to chide P&F for not referencing this research, when in fact they are just
as guilty of the very same oversight for not referencing Oppenheimer-Phillips of
30 years earlier, nor did they mention Gow and Ruby by name. It looks like they
are trying to hold back some of this information for themselves.

Here are the two points from the old research that can help in the optimized
design for a polarized deuterium stripping reactor. The Berkeley rad lab was
using a linear pinch design at 20 kV and they found:
 1.) neutron production was quenched by the application of a weak axial magnetic
field (50 - 100 gauss), implying that collisions were dominated by
electromagnetic rather than thermal forces.
2.) neutron yield did not rise when the applied voltage was increased.

Of course the Graneaus jumped on 1.) above because it reinforces their
"longitudinal force" ideas and maybe they are correct. After all, If you
consider
the implications of Oppenheimer-Phillips (without the Graneau longitudinal
force), intuitively it would seem that an axial field would help a lot. Starting
with
this overly simplified description -  the shielded end of the D nucleus must
head directly into valence band of the cathode target so that once its momentum
carries it in far enough, then the field-drag on the proton from the valence
orbitals "pulls" the proton away from the neutron, after which the neutron's
momentum carries it on into the target nucleus - this visualization must be
wrong, if the Graneaus are correct - but it is Gow who may have gotten the
geometry right, before his research was squelched by the AEC.

James D. Gow and Lawrence Ruby of what is now the Lawrence Berkeley Radiation
Laboratory built an incredible "Pulsed Neutron Source Based on Crossed-Field
Trapping." There are two patents out there somewhere. I have one on paper and am
trying to find the URL for both.  I am told by Fred Sparber that many years ago,
when he was trying to patent a similar neutron generator, he found out about
this work from his patent attorney as it was not yet in the public record, and
in follow-up work he tried to contact Gow and found out that he met an untimely
and  tragic death. Whether or not that personal tragedy was due to the neutron
project not getting refunded and the work getting held out of the public record,
we don't know. But the device, known as Gow's magnetron, sure looks interesting
and was said to produce an incredible number of neutrons. The is a short writeup
on the "Bell Jar" site:
www.tiac.net/users/shansen/belljar/634neut.pdf

So the $64 question is, since the axial field quenches the effect, and Gow's
crossed field boosts it, are there yet other enhancements? Probably yes -
crossed fields may be a key, but I still haven't found any performance figures
on the device.  If any stripping techniques has a chance of OU, it will likely
employ not only crossed fields, but also as Horace has suggested, an NMR
resonance technique that oscillates either the deuterium proton or its neutron-
but not both. The actual resonance numbers depend on the field strength and are
well known - Horace has included some in his writeup.

Perhaps by overlaying a RF resonance wave on top of the DC current in a
crossed-field magnetron geometry, which contains other reactive elements like
lithium and strontium vapors, OU can be achieved.  Else like Miley's fusor, it
will produce impressive numbers of neutrons but remain 100,000:1 away from
breakeven.

BTW, if there are any young inventors out there who want to "borrow" these
ideas, don't worry about the IP consequences, there are none, and as for
incentive, just remember that Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace reportedly paid Miley
$10 mill for his Fusor, not too shabby for what is almost an exact copy of the
Farnsworth design - go figure.

Regards,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 09:04:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27504;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:45:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:45:01 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:53:00 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:  aluminum "battery" 
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b88d24c9da6b [12.21.209.93]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211114620.17747I-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"YnCSa1.0.Wj6.DK_Py" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46084
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	The use of Aluminum, to be abbreviated for this discussion as Al,
allows one to realize electric power and-or hydrogen from water.
	Other metal-air or metal water systems include:
	Zinc-air     .......and this is rechargeable 
	iron systems	....some are, some are not...

	All of these, except Al have been reduced to practice and used
successfully.  The comment[s] along the lines  of "how come we don't
have them now?" are answered.... We either DO or HAVE had them, just not
in the public "Oh...NEWS!" eye in the past 20 years.

	And with Al the Al is reduced by electric power.... this is the
expense.

	I have been in contact off and on with people who are aware of how
to produce commercial size scale up, in the event anyonewanted to make
this a business, contact off line, please


					John Schnurer


On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 1:43 PM 2/11/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:53:50 -0900:
> >Hi,
> >[snip]
> >
> >>Aluminum pryrolisis should have no atmospheric emssiion at all, except
> >>possibly water vapor  The aluminum oxide is later recovered, reduced and
> >>recycled.  It is notable that pyrolisis is not the only means to utilize
> >>the high energy content of aluminum.  An air-aluminum battery could
> >>possibly be developed.
> >[snip]
> >AFAIK it was. Decades ago.
> 
> 
> Any idea if it worked OK?  I suppose not, else they would be in common use.
> I also suppose that is not proof that an efficent one could not be
> feasible.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 09:58:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31935;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:49:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:49:36 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211123218.03039958 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:49:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b88b6c2620d5 [12.21.211.5]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"BTvdz2.0.ho7.kG0Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46086
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>It makes no sense at all to wait 10 years for fuel cell auto power plants
>and meanwhile stop hybrid development.

No one in favor of alternative energy wants to stop development in hybrid 
automobiles, or for that matter, electric automobiles, which are more 
efficient and cleaner than both hybrid and fuel cell vehicles. (The range 
is limited and battery cost is still high.) The administration and the 
major U.S. automobile manufacturers want to stop development of hybrid 
vehicles, and they want to manipulate U.S. laws to punish the Japanese for 
having introduced them, by increasing CAFE standards equally across the 
board. They say they want to develop fuel cell vehicles instead of hybrid 
cars, but even the Wall Street Journal recognizes that this is a ploy. 
Actually, they want to avoid developing anything. A ten-year R&D project is 
far cheaper than actually setting up a production line.

If the automobile manufacturers believed the "Hubbert's Peak" hypothesis, 
and they thought gasoline will cost $5 per gallon within a decade, they 
would be frantically spending billions of dollars in crash programs to 
develop hybrid, fuel cell and electric vehicles. Any other course would be 
suicidal. In a few years, probably before a single U.S. hybrid vehicle is 
sold, the Japanese will be producing hundreds of thousands of them, and 
they will be well-positioned to expand production to make millions. No 
corporation can make the transition overnight. It took years to retool 
production lines even during the crisis of the Second World War. Obviously, 
if the price of gasoline skyrockets, the Japanese will be well-positioned 
to take over most of the U.S. market. If auto execs knew anything about CF 
they would be spending hundreds of millions of dollars researching it. I am 
forced to conclude that automobile executives do not get out often, they 
don't know much about the wider world, and they are not curious to learn 
about it. They think they know already. That's hubris.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 09:58:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31874;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:49:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:49:31 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211121957.0303a0a0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:30:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b88bd1a9308c [12.21.209.140]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"va6tv1.0.kn7.fG0Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46085
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown . . .

It would be INCREDIBLY expensive.

It may be possible to grow some forms of bacteria in water, exposed to 
intense sunlight. The bacteria break the water into hydrogen and oxygen. 
Celani is working on this with Ralstonia. This is not like ordinary 
hydroponic agriculture.


>, or the ethanol or similar fuel is synthesized . . .

Synthesizing fuel from carbon and water requires more energy than the fuel 
produces. If you have a source of energy this abundant, you might as well 
use it directly, unless it is located far from population centers and can 
only be shipped in the form of fuel. In this case, it would probably be 
best to synthesize hydrogen.


>If the feedstock is grain grown on American topsoil, sufficient
>to fuel our cars, etc., then going that route could be devastating to our
>long term farm production.

It would also condemn millions of people to starvation.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 10:36:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20901;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:24:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:24:22 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:16:53 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <003501c1b328$48d3fa40$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211121957.0303a0a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ycqr-.0.V65.Ln0Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46087
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> >If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown . . .
 
> It would be INCREDIBLY expensive.
 
> It may be possible to grow some forms of bacteria in water, exposed to 
> intense sunlight. The bacteria break the water into hydrogen and oxygen. 
> Celani is working on this with Ralstonia. This is not like ordinary 
> hydroponic agriculture.




This company appears to be miles ahead of everyone else:

http://www.melisenergy.com

We may see biologically produced hydrogen much sooner than you think.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 11:13:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18270;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:09:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:09:39 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OT: WTC Attack :Breathing Drain Cleaner and Ammonia
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:09:36 -0800
Message-ID: <000001c1b32f$a64bb9e0$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
In-Reply-To: <003501c1b328$48d3fa40$8837fea9 computer>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"Tz1Z11.0.KT4.pR1Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46088
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In the following news Report :
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/news/6C8A9B4E472FA4DB86256
B5B006841BB?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2Cepa?opendocument&headline=Caustic+dus
t+blankets+World+Trade+Center+area

It was known within Hours that the dust coming from the collapsed Towers had
as high as a PH level as 12, on indoor surfaces, ie Drain Cleaner.
On the external surfaces it was in the 10's, ie Ammonia.

Concrete is a mixture of different chemicals, which react to water,
releasing heat, to form hydrogen bonds between the different materials.
The caustic component of concrete, necessary for "quick dry" and high
strength applications, most likely Calcium; when atomized , is released into
the air, and re-reacting with the air and moisture will cause these caustic
residues.

When working with concrete, I have to wear plastic gloves, to prevent
contact with my skin, which causes exema and dryness.

So , the news wasn't released to the people who needed to know. The
firefighters, Police and other rescuers. And then telling people to go home
and resume a normal life.

The good thing is, if there was any anthrax on the planes ( as rumored by
some ) it wouldn't have survived long in those conditions. Too high a PH
value.

The bad thing is , by not distributing this information, we had a good
example of a spread of distribution of a chemical attack on Civilian targets
in a City.
No Agri-comp airplanes needed.


Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:17 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> >If the feedstock for the ethanol production is hydroponically grown . . .

> It would be INCREDIBLY expensive.

> It may be possible to grow some forms of bacteria in water, exposed to
> intense sunlight. The bacteria break the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
> Celani is working on this with Ralstonia. This is not like ordinary
> hydroponic agriculture.




This company appears to be miles ahead of everyone else:

http://www.melisenergy.com

We may see biologically produced hydrogen much sooner than you think.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 11:53:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09480;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:49:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:49:44 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100304b88d07d9d3e7 [4.46.76.99]>
In-Reply-To: <20020210222805.INSX6996.lakemtao02.mgt.cox.net there>
References: <000001c1b26f$c5f27600$0201a8c0 kitty>
 <20020210222805.INSX6996.lakemtao02.mgt.cox.net there>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:47:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Transparaent metal
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"cxKHQ.0.mJ2.N12Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46089
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Hoyt Sterns posted,
>
>It wasn't too long ago researchers created a practical, thick, true
>transparent metal by layering dialectric thin films with metal thin films on
>
Interesting story Hoyt, do you have any URL's ?

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 13:26:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13341;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:14:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:14:59 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530504b88dda5e06e4 [12.21.209.186]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:17:45 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Resent-Message-ID: <"2OUI33.0.GG3.HH3Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46091
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I should first note that despite focusing on a few areas of disagreement, I
am in general agreement with Jed.

At 12:30 PM 2/11/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Synthesizing fuel from carbon and water requires more energy than the fuel
>produces. If you have a source of energy this abundant, you might as well
>use it directly, unless it is located far from population centers and can
>only be shipped in the form of fuel. In this case, it would probably be
>best to synthesize hydrogen.


The starting point need not be carbon.  As Fred Sparber has pointed out
numerous times, agri-waste is a very good starting point for producing
ethyl alcohol.  However, producing methyl alcohol from coal is just a
matter of tweeking the coal gassification process a bit, the methylation
step that is already there.  It does not require more energy in than is
produced.


At 12:49 PM 2/11/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>If the automobile manufacturers believed the "Hubbert's Peak" hypothesis,
>and they thought gasoline will cost $5 per gallon within a decade, they
>would be frantically spending billions of dollars in crash programs to
>develop hybrid, fuel cell and electric vehicles. Any other course would be
>suicidal.


Though Hubbert's peak inevitably must exist, and very well may lie out
there somewhere in the near future as evidence indicates, I still maintain
the government and manufacturers have missed the overwhelming significance
of 9/11.  The aftermath has only begun.  The oil supply is clearly at risk.
It is not $5 a gallon gas we have to worry about short term, it is no gas.
If the government ignores this it is putting its collective head into the
sand.  Developing hybrid technology offsets the risk of sudden loss, and
leaves open the possibility of the fast conversion of hybrids to methane,
methanol, ethanol, or hydrogen, and in addition, provides a long term
alternate path toward a fuel cell based hydrogen economy.  Further,
research on methane hybrids and others should be happening right now.
Putting  all the eggs into a long term scheme while dropping a fairly
proven short term scheme is a strategy that may well be suicidal, not due
to ordinary and predictable economic conditions, but due to unstable
political and military conditions.  The greatest blunder, however, may be
leaving the American people in the dark.

Given present conditions, perhaps the greatest benefit, from a national
security point of view, might be obtained by focusing on alternative
powerings for truck, bus and taxi fleets.

It also makes some sense that external combustion engines, like the
Sterling engine, which obviously can be multi-fueled, may be the best
choice for hydbrids of the near future, given enough research.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 13:29:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13243;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:14:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:14:51 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b88dd8177dd3 [12.21.209.186]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:17:42 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Quadrupole device and Gow magnetron
Resent-Message-ID: <"HHTcO3.0.hE3.9H3Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46090
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:17 AM 2/11/2, Jones Beene wrote:
[snip]
> ...Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace reportedly paid Miley
>$10 mill for his Fusor, not too shabby for what is almost an exact copy of the
>Farnsworth design - go figure.


?!?!? Unreal!  And without a patent?  Do you have any refs on that?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 13:42:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19551;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:30:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:30:10 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211162705.00ac5560 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:30:08 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Bad news from Denmark
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"t2FKF1.0.Gn4.XV3Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46092
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A right-wing government plans to scrap subsidies. This bothers me because 
other sources of energy compete unfairly. Government everywhere offer 
massive subsidies for conventional sources such as fission and coal, plus 
coal producers to not have to pay for the environmental and health damage 
they cause. See:

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/14458/story.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 14:40:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11728;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:23:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:23:09 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211165755.03a6e9d0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:23:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
In-Reply-To: <v01530504b88dda5e06e4 [12.21.209.186]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"fTb4r1.0.8t2.DH4Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46093
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>The starting point need not be carbon.  As Fred Sparber has pointed out 
>numerous times, agri-waste is a very good starting point for producing 
>ethyl alcohol.

I do not think there is anywhere near enough waste to satisfy 
transportation fuel requirements. This is partly due to basic biology 
energetics. The energy in wheat is concentrated in the grain, not the 
chaff. It is also due to the fact that most Americans use far more energy 
in their cars than they eat in the form of food. We need 2000 calories of 
food per day, or 8.6 MJ. We consume 1008 MJ of mechanical energy per capita 
per day in all sectors including electricity and transportation. Oil alone 
is about 20 million barrels per day or 414 MJ per person. The scraps and 
leftovers from 8.6 MJ of food production cannot make a dent in a 414 MJ 
demand, even when you account for the fact that U.S. food production feeds 
many animals and people overseas.


>Though Hubbert's peak inevitably must exist, and very well may lie out
>there somewhere in the near future as evidence indicates, I still maintain
>the government and manufacturers have missed the overwhelming significance 
>of 9/11.  The aftermath has only begun.  The oil supply is clearly at 
>risk. It is not $5 a gallon gas we have to worry about short term, it is 
>no gas. If the government ignores this it is putting its collective head 
>into the sand.

That is true. I neglected to the political aspects. Hybrid engine 
technology alone would be enough to eliminate all imports from the Middle 
East. I think we can depend upon our other suppliers in South America, 
northern Europe and Russia. They are either allies or apolitical.


>Putting  all the eggs into a long term scheme while dropping a fairly
>proven short term scheme is a strategy that may well be suicidal, not due 
>to ordinary and predictable economic conditions, but due to unstable 
>political and military conditions.

A corporation as large as General Motors or Ford would be crazy to build 
only hybrid, or only fuel cell cars at this stage. No one can say which 
will be more commercially successful in five or ten years. If GM 
concentrates exclusively on hybrid cars, Toyota or Ford might put them out 
of business.


>Given present conditions, perhaps the greatest benefit, from a national
>security point of view, might be obtained by focusing on alternative
>powerings for truck, bus and taxi fleets.

Yes, this would reduce fuel consumption most rapidly in the near term. 
There are small numbers of prototype fuel cell buses in operation in 
Europe. If industry and government had any sense of urgency, we could have 
10,000 trucks on the road in a year or two. Making 10 million cars in such 
a short time would be far more difficult.

Delivery trucks, trains and taxicabs can be fueled with hydrogen or some 
other exotic fuel more easily than ordinary passenger cars, because they 
return to a depot on a regular basis, and fuel supplies can be kept at the 
depot.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 14:54:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26107;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:52:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:52:37 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.106]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:52:00 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F10AmsfGdMNFmWAFsTm0000d0d1 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2002 22:52:00.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7499B80:01C1B34E]
Resent-Message-ID: <"mgqIF1.0.mN6.qi4Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46094
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vo,

The Al-Air battery was fully developed at the Lawrence Livermore National 
Lab many years ago, at about $14m in Federal expense.  It worked just fine.  
It had two problems.  One is that gasoline had to be at least $2.50/gal for 
it to be cost competitive.  The second is a need for more than $1B to be 
spent on infrastructure.  The latter would be to equip service stations to 
vacuum out the Al oxide for recycling (needs 5% of the energy used to 
initially fabricate the Al).  Large plates of Al would be installed in about 
5 minutes to recharge the vehicle.  The lab sold the work to ALCAN, the 
large Canadian Al company when no American firm was interested.  There is 
also a small U.S. firm that was making Al batteries.  They were going to 
start with hearing aid sizes.  I believe they may not have been able to find 
venture capital.

Mark Goldes, CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. (a subsidiary)


>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: aluminum "battery"
>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:53:00 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>
>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	The use of Aluminum, to be abbreviated for this discussion as Al,
>allows one to realize electric power and-or hydrogen from water.
>	Other metal-air or metal water systems include:
>	Zinc-air     .......and this is rechargeable
>	iron systems	....some are, some are not...
>
>	All of these, except Al have been reduced to practice and used
>successfully.  The comment[s] along the lines  of "how come we don't
>have them now?" are answered.... We either DO or HAVE had them, just not
>in the public "Oh...NEWS!" eye in the past 20 years.
>
>	And with Al the Al is reduced by electric power.... this is the
>expense.
>
>	I have been in contact off and on with people who are aware of how
>to produce commercial size scale up, in the event anyonewanted to make
>this a business, contact off line, please
>
>
>					John Schnurer
>
>
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> > At 1:43 PM 2/11/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> > >In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:53:50 
>-0900:
> > >Hi,
> > >[snip]
> > >
> > >>Aluminum pryrolisis should have no atmospheric emssiion at all, except
> > >>possibly water vapor  The aluminum oxide is later recovered, reduced 
>and
> > >>recycled.  It is notable that pyrolisis is not the only means to 
>utilize
> > >>the high energy content of aluminum.  An air-aluminum battery could
> > >>possibly be developed.
> > >[snip]
> > >AFAIK it was. Decades ago.
> >
> >
> > Any idea if it worked OK?  I suppose not, else they would be in common 
>use.
> > I also suppose that is not proof that an efficent one could not be
> > feasible.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Horace Heffner
> >
> >
>




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 15:24:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05931;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:18:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:18:17 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:25:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
In-Reply-To: <F10AmsfGdMNFmWAFsTm0000d0d1 hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211181828.4768E-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"XjyRp.0.XS1.u45Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46095
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	The recent comment, below, saying the battery will not be cost
effective until gas is 2.50 USD is explicitly tied to how greedy the
manufacturer IS



Vo,

The Al-Air battery was fully developed at the Lawrence Livermore National
Lab many years ago, at about $14m in Federal expense.  It worked just
fine.  It had two problems.  One is that gasoline had to be at least
$2.50/gal for it to be cost competitive. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 15:25:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10744;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:24:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:24:47 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:23:52 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Methane Hydrate
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
To: Vortex Mail <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <200202111823_MC3-F1A3-AD7B compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA10691
Resent-Message-ID: <"rtdlN1.0.od2.-A5Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46096
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Has anyone the latest on the extraction and conversion of Methane Hydrate
(or Methane Clathrate) for use as an ic fuel?

I understand that there is a huge reserve of this stuff at great depth
below the seabed - more than all the reserves of oil, coal and gas combined
- and could supply the needs of the planet for many decades.

There is one snag that I know of and that is the difficulty of extracting
it without it decomposing to CO2 and water (I think) before it reaches the
surface.  There has been some research by NASA and others, but it would be
interesting to hear how far it has reached towards commercialization.

Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 15:45:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14625;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:31:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:31:54 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:24:41 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Quadrupole device and Gow magnetron
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <008b01c1b353$481556a0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530503b88dd8177dd3 [12.21.209.186]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"iUPtN2.0.Ra3.eH5Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46097
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>


> > ...Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace reportedly paid Miley
> >$10 mill for his Fusor, not too shabby for what is almost an exact copy of
the
> >Farnsworth design - go figure.

> ?!?!? Unreal!  And without a patent?  Do you have any refs on that?

Here is Miley's home page:
http://www.ne.uiuc.edu/fsl/research/

He has a link there to Daimler aerospace but it no longer works as it used to.

The licensing figure came form the fusor forum, if memory serves, but nobody
said he didn't have a patent - as there was likely some minor improvement, like
capillary cooling of the electrodes - but the form, function, and even the
neutron output are almost identical to Farnsworth's work a generation earlier.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 18:21:21 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32219;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:18:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:18:08 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.110]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: herman antioch-college.edu
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:17:34 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F17wPBhfgM4fGIC7p9z0000171d hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2002 02:17:35.0255 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F41F270:01C1B36B]
Resent-Message-ID: <"xfCB32.0.It7.Wj7Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46098
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vo,

The economic studies on the Aluminum AIr battery were, and perhaps still 
are, available at no charge from LLNL.  The figure $2.50/gal was considered 
at least $1 too low by someone knowledgable in the field when it was 
published.  The small fact of an infrastructure that today would probably be 
$2 Billion for the necessary recycling equipment to be widely distributed 
makes the whole idea remain in the realm of fantasy.  Incidently, the 
technical reports were available free also, and were extremely well done.  
$14 million bought a lot of nice work.

The Zinc Air battery is still trying to penetrate the market.  They were 
first used for "walkie-talkies" in WWII -- mfg by Eagle-Picher. Now EV sizes 
are made in Israel.  The German post office is using them and others are 
experimenting with them in the U.S..

Mark Goldes
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.


>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:25:46 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>
>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	The recent comment, below, saying the battery will not be cost
>effective until gas is 2.50 USD is explicitly tied to how greedy the
>manufacturer IS
>
>
>
>Vo,
>
>The Al-Air battery was fully developed at the Lawrence Livermore National
>Lab many years ago, at about $14m in Federal expense.  It worked just
>fine.  It had two problems.  One is that gasoline had to be at least
>$2.50/gal for it to be cost competitive.
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 18:26:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03169;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:25:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:25:49 -0800
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:33:49 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Mark Goldes <mgoldes msn.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
In-Reply-To: <F17wPBhfgM4fGIC7p9z0000171d hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211213206.19025A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ic82x1.0.Ln.jq7Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46099
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 




	A search on batteries will show recent firms making large
rechargeable zinc air batteries in light weight polyethylene
cases and custom sizes.


On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Mark Goldes wrote:

> Vo,
> 
> The economic studies on the Aluminum AIr battery were, and perhaps still 
> are, available at no charge from LLNL.  The figure $2.50/gal was considered 
> at least $1 too low by someone knowledgable in the field when it was 
> published.  The small fact of an infrastructure that today would probably be 
> $2 Billion for the necessary recycling equipment to be widely distributed 
> makes the whole idea remain in the realm of fantasy.  Incidently, the 
> technical reports were available free also, and were extremely well done.  
> $14 million bought a lot of nice work.
> 
> The Zinc Air battery is still trying to penetrate the market.  They were 
> first used for "walkie-talkies" in WWII -- mfg by Eagle-Picher. Now EV sizes 
> are made in Israel.  The German post office is using them and others are 
> experimenting with them in the U.S..
> 
> Mark Goldes
> Magnetic Power Inc.
> Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.
> 
> 
> >From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> >Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
> >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:25:46 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >
> >
> >	Dear Vo.,
> >
> >	The recent comment, below, saying the battery will not be cost
> >effective until gas is 2.50 USD is explicitly tied to how greedy the
> >manufacturer IS
> >
> >
> >
> >Vo,
> >
> >The Al-Air battery was fully developed at the Lawrence Livermore National
> >Lab many years ago, at about $14m in Federal expense.  It worked just
> >fine.  It had two problems.  One is that gasoline had to be at least
> >$2.50/gal for it to be cost competitive.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 19:07:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24353;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:05:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:05:10 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: aluminum "battery"
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:05:12 -0800
Message-ID: <000301c1b372$17174850$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <F17wPBhfgM4fGIC7p9z0000171d hotmail.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"bGI6b2.0.Ly5.bP8Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46100
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

You can get a "zinc-air" battery for your Motorala Star-tac Cell phone.
Huge shelf life until you open it, and almost 4 times the standby time as a
"Ni-metal-hydride"


Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mgoldes msn.com]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 6:18 PM
To: herman antioch-college.edu
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"

Vo,

The economic studies on the Aluminum AIr battery were, and perhaps still
are, available at no charge from LLNL.  The figure $2.50/gal was considered
at least $1 too low by someone knowledgable in the field when it was
published.  The small fact of an infrastructure that today would probably be
$2 Billion for the necessary recycling equipment to be widely distributed
makes the whole idea remain in the realm of fantasy.  Incidently, the
technical reports were available free also, and were extremely well done.
$14 million bought a lot of nice work.

The Zinc Air battery is still trying to penetrate the market.  They were
first used for "walkie-talkies" in WWII -- mfg by Eagle-Picher. Now EV sizes
are made in Israel.  The German post office is using them and others are
experimenting with them in the U.S..

Mark Goldes
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.


>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:25:46 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>
>       Dear Vo.,
>
>       The recent comment, below, saying the battery will not be cost
>effective until gas is 2.50 USD is explicitly tied to how greedy the
>manufacturer IS
>
>
>
>Vo,
>
>The Al-Air battery was fully developed at the Lawrence Livermore National
>Lab many years ago, at about $14m in Federal expense.  It worked just
>fine.  It had two problems.  One is that gasoline had to be at least
>$2.50/gal for it to be cost competitive.
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 19:10:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA27919;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:10:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:10:02 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Methane Hydrate
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:10:01 -0800
Message-ID: <000401c1b372$c361ba50$0201a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <200202111823_MC3-F1A3-AD7B compuserve.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"q1KSg3.0.7q6.9U8Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46101
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

You would want to be careful not to destabilize the whole deposit. Look at
some video's of a north sea oil rig that sank when it penetrated a Clathrate
deposit, and sank it.
The sea and huge bubbles were less dense than the flotation capacity of the
salt water.

Also, because it reaches the surface as a "gas" it is extremely explosive.

In the 60's and 70's huge Clathrate deposits were released offshore in
California naturally, and caused some of the largest non-volcanic explosions
ever recorded.
Windows shattered in homes 100 miles away were common.

It would be safer to mine nitroglycerine......


Matthew Rogers
d2shound msn.com
matt accelnet.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman Horwood [mailto:100060.173 compuserve.com]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 3:24 PM
To: Vortex Mail
Subject: Methane Hydrate

Has anyone the latest on the extraction and conversion of Methane Hydrate
(or Methane Clathrate) for use as an ic fuel?

I understand that there is a huge reserve of this stuff at great depth
below the seabed - more than all the reserves of oil, coal and gas combined
- and could supply the needs of the planet for many decades.

There is one snag that I know of and that is the difficulty of extracting
it without it decomposing to CO2 and water (I think) before it reaches the
surface.  There has been some research by NASA and others, but it would be
interesting to hear how far it has reached towards commercialization.

Norman Horwood


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 11 19:47:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09556;
	Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:43:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:43:09 -0800
Sender: hoyt eskimo.com
Message-ID: <3C688F14.A17484A1 cox.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:42:13 -0700
From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
Organization: ISUS
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Transparent metal
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"el-pj1.0.9L2.Cz8Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46102
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Here's one I came up with, but it isn't the one that caught my
attention:

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19991108S0095

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 06:52:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08334;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:49:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:49:19 -0800
Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net
Message-ID: <3C692A9D.207F99 centurytel.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:45:49 +0000
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 centurytel.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
References: <v01530501b88ae345f7fb [12.21.208.110]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Gtrt.0.822.ljIQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46103
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Horace wrote:

THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS by Horace Heffner  12/30/1996

... 6)  As the small ion and acquired electron(s) expands
from nuclear dimensions to atomic dimensions, at some
point force is applied in all directions to the lattice
provided the interstitial sites do not accommodate the
size of the de-ionized product.  Further expansion of the
de-ionized product to it's final size results in work being
performed on the lattice.  The energy thus produced has
no antecedent. It is derived solely from the force that
keeps atoms from collapsing.  However, unlike a collision,
no initial compressive kinetic energy was supplied.
The energy is supplied from the ZPE sea.

Horace also wrote, in response to the question
"Why, when the Moon is overhead, on the opposite side of the
Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters?":

I think a good short answer to your question is
"centrifugal force," or more precisely the force of
inertia, makes the back side of the earth appear to
be raised ...

If you tie a string to a metal nut or washer and
swing it about your head, the centripetal force is the force
on the string you exert to keep your end of the string centered.
The centrifugal force is the matching force from the
other end of the string caused by the inertia of the nut.
To maintain the circular motion, the nut is being made to
accelerate by the centripital force.  Its resistance to
this acceleration is called its inertia.

Hi Horace,

Your AEH is very enlightening; but, as usual, I'm having a 
conceptual hangup.  In our previous discussion of the bump
on the Earth opposite the Moon, you use the term centifugal
force (or "force of inertia".)  I agree with that usage,
although standard physics texts state that the centrifugal
force is an illusion, a virtual force.

Obviously, the centripetal force on the nut is a net (or
unbalanced) force.  Otherwise the nut would not be accelerated
to maintain its uniform circular motion.  However, anyone who
has been "centifuged" in the rotor at an amusement park
knows that his back is pressing against the wall.  And, if 
I catch the nut in a butterfly net, there is no longer a
net centripetal force on the nut, although it seems quite
a stretch to me to call the force exerted by the net a 
centrifugal force.

You wrote above:  "Further expansion of the
de-ionized product to it's final size results in work being
performed on the lattice."

Is this work the result of applying unbalanced force to
the lattice?  Is the lattice deformed like a spring, or is
something else going on?  I would appreciate your thoughts
on this.

Thanks, Jack Smith

PS When a non-homogeneous liquid such as milk or blood
is centrifuged,  what is the math for predicting that the 
denser portion of the fluid will move to the bottom of
the test tube?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 07:16:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16168;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:14:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:14:10 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.150]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Cold Fusion and Oil etc.
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:13:37 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F27Rk35m6xD8YcsgPVX0000eab1 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2002 15:13:37.0667 (UTC) FILETIME=[D89E2D30:01C1B3D7]
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZP2O61.0.Ry3.15JQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46104
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Vo,

I don't agree with all of these comments, but thought some of you might find 
them of interest.

Mark



----- Original Message -----
From: "brew" <brew thedailybrew.com>
To: <bettyben ecentral.com>
Sent: February 11, 2002 5:16 PM
Subject: The Daily Brew


: A Complicated World
: (c) February 11, 2002
: The Daily Brew
:
: Imagine if the United States stopped consuming oil.
:
: Imagine if, over the next three decades, every car and building in the
: US was powered by electricity from a cheap, non-polluting source.
:
: Sound too good to be true?  It might be.
:
: On the positive side, debate about the US role in global warming would
: cease. Air quality in the US would immediately skyrocket, and water
: quality, at least in some areas, would soon follow.
:
: The economic effects are less clear.  If giant corporations like
: ExxonMobil went the path of the buggy makers, there would be huge
: economic dislocations. We have a taste of what that would feel like
: thanks to the crooked energy traders at Enron who stole from their
: employees and then lied to Congress about it.  But the death of Enron
: only eliminated thousands of jobs; the big oil companies employ
: millions.
:
: And the economic consequences in America would be just the tip of the
: iceberg.  Forty percent of all the oil extracted from the planet is
: consumed in the US.  Even a twenty five percent drop in US demand would
: absolutely destroy the price, and the effect would ripple across the
: planet.  In the short and not so short term, the economies of producer
: countries like Venezuela, Mexico, and Russia would be devastated.
: Perhaps more troubling is the effect it would have in the Middle East,
: particularly Saudi Arabia.
:
: Twenty five percent of the oil extracted in Saudi Arabia is destined
: for the US and our SUVs.  The Saudis make hundreds of billions from a
: never-ending parade of super tankers bound for our shores laden with
: crude. With one of the youngest populations on the planet, Saudi
: Arabia uses billions of those dollars to provide their children basic
: social services, food, and education.  Unfortunately, part of that
: education is to teach their children, and other children around the
: world, to hate the United States.
:
: While they are teaching their kids to hate us, they are also using tens
: of those billions to buy advanced US weapons.  They are one of our best
: customers, employing thousands of Americans in the fabrication of
: fighter jets destined for Saudi Arabia.  If America ever stopped buying
: Saudi oil, the Saudis might have to stop buying US weapons.  Millions
: of Americans busy building fighter jets might lose their jobs. At the
: same time, Saudi Arabia could go bankrupt, and the millions of its
: children who had been taught to hate us would no longer be receiving
: basic social services and education.  Hopefully, they won't have
: learned yet how to fly our jets.
:
: On the flip side, if the price dropped out of the floor, the Saudis
: would probably be able to sell more oil to China.  They already buy
: missiles from China, so the basic weapons-for-gas two-step is already
: set up.  They wouldn't make near as much money as they do now, but if
: we could "break our dependence on foreign oil", maybe the Saudi's could
: teach their kids to hate the Chinese instead of us.
:
: Of course, this scenario is politically impossible.  The US is about as
: likely to significantly reduce oil consumption, thereby bankrupting
: Islamic terrorists, as it is to decriminalize drugs, thereby
: bankrupting Central and South American terrorists.  At the same time,
: just like decriminalizing drugs, it might actually be technically
: possible.
:
: In addition to well known sources of clean, cheap power (wind, solar,
: geothermal, etc.), technological breakthroughs could create more
: electricity.  Much more.
:
: In 1989, two scientists at the University of Utah reported an
: experiment where two metal rods were dunked in heavy water and a
: current was run across them.  They claimed that the device produced
: excess heat, that is, more energy output than energy input.  They
: theorized that this could only be possible as a result of some
: unexplained nuclear effect, or so-called "cold fusion."  Interestingly,
: the results indicated that unlike other well known nuclear processes,
: cold fusion seemed to produce far more energy than toxic waste
: by-product, a result nuclear physicists regarded as an abomination.
:
: Pons and Fleishman were immediately ridiculed out of the profession in
: the same manner as many who have made revolutionary scientific
: discoveries throughout history.  The high temperature plasma physics
: crowd, funded to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars, were
: particularly vicious.  The physics establishment declared that such a
: result was not permitted by their models, mostly because it failed to
: produce a cesspool of nuclear waste, and therefore not possible.
: Never allowing for the possibility that they or their models might not
: know everything, the High Priests of Science declared Pons and
: Fleishman crackpots, the government and the media bought it, and that
: little bit of unpleasantness was quickly put behind the scientific
: establishment. Or so they thought.
:
: The problem was that the plasma crowd never bothered to rigorously
: check Pons and Fleishman's results, as the most critical element, the
: calorimetry that measured the excess heat, was decidedly outside of
: their area of expertise.  Pons and Fleishman were driven to exile
: purely on theoretical, and more effectively, rhetorical grounds.  This
: could prove embarrassing if the facts ever come out.
:
: Right now, the physics crowd  is safe. They were successful in killing
: Pons and Fleishman's idea, along with any threat that the US government
: might actually fund further research into the matter that might come at
: their expense. But they couldn't kill the whole notion entirely,
: because facts are stubborn things.
:
: Over time, other scientists have run more experiments and have
: confirmed in several instances that with just the right conditions, it
: is possible to generate excess heat, sometimes a lot of it, and without
: producing a mountain or nuclear waste. As those results have piled up,
: that fact that it is possible has become essentially indisputable.
: Still, despite the profound potential impact of cheap, non-polluting
: energy, these results are largely unknown.  Perhaps this is because
: they might expose the Emperors of Science as having no clothes.
:
: Where the excess heat comes from nobody really knows.  Whether it could
: be harnessed on an industrial scale may also never be known.  What is
: known is that very little progress is likely in the near future because
: even discussing it is regarded as career ending heresy within the only
: community that really matters; the scientific establishment of the US
: government that doles out billions of dollars every year to do basic
: science in the Department of Energy's labs and America's colleges and
: universities.
:
: Unlimited cheap clean energy could mean clean air and water the world
: over.  It could also end desertification in the third world, pollution
: in the first world, and global warming throughout the whole world.
: But, it could also greatly upset the geopolitical applecart, where the
: status quo quietly sows the seeds of our own destruction.  So maybe it
: is just as well we don't look into such things.
:
: _________________________________________________________
: This edition of The Daily Brew was sent to you
feel free to pass it along.
: If any of your friends would like to recieve The Daily Brew
: regularly, they can sign up for a free lifetime subscription at
: http://www.thedailybrew.com
:
:


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 08:01:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07348;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:57:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:57:47 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020212103407.00a709f8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:58:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion and Oil etc.
In-Reply-To: <F27Rk35m6xD8YcsgPVX0000eab1 hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"GPGDC3.0.jo1.xjJQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46105
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mark Goldes wrote:

>: The economic effects are less clear.  If giant corporations like
>: ExxonMobil went the path of the buggy makers, there would be huge
>: economic dislocations.

There would be serious economic dislocations, and they would have to be 
dealt with. Every major new technology has caused similar problems.


>: While they are teaching their kids to hate us, they are also using tens
>: of those billions to buy advanced US weapons.  They are one of our best
>: customers, employing thousands of Americans in the fabrication of
>: fighter jets destined for Saudi Arabia.  If America ever stopped buying
>: Saudi oil, the Saudis might have to stop buying US weapons.  Millions
>: of Americans busy building fighter jets might lose their jobs.

I doubt that millions of people are employed in this industry. In any case, 
building weapons is a dreadful waste of human potential. According to this 
document:

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1996/08/art7full.pdf

. . . 449,000 people make a living building aircraft. In a cold fusion 
powered world, they will have their hands full for the next 30 years 
replacing all those obsolete chemically powered aircraft.


>: On the flip side, if the price dropped out of the floor, the Saudis
>: would probably be able to sell more oil to China.

Why? Why wouldn't the Chinese be using CF? It will be cheaper for them, 
too. The only market for oil would be as chemical feedstock, roughly 1/5 of 
today's consumption. The U.S. and China produce more than enough oil 
domestically to meet this need.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 11:47:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25732;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:44:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:44:31 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88f012a64df [12.21.209.12]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:47:09 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
Resent-Message-ID: <"WqzxN2.0.zH6.U2NQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46106
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:45 AM 2/12/2, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Horace wrote:
>
>THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS by Horace Heffner  12/30/1996
>
>... 6)  As the small ion and acquired electron(s) expands
>from nuclear dimensions to atomic dimensions, at some
>point force is applied in all directions to the lattice
>provided the interstitial sites do not accommodate the
>size of the de-ionized product.  Further expansion of the
>de-ionized product to it's final size results in work being
>performed on the lattice.  The energy thus produced has
>no antecedent. It is derived solely from the force that
>keeps atoms from collapsing.  However, unlike a collision,
>no initial compressive kinetic energy was supplied.
>The energy is supplied from the ZPE sea.
>
>Horace also wrote, in response to the question
>"Why, when the Moon is overhead, on the opposite side of the
>Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters?":
>
>I think a good short answer to your question is
>"centrifugal force," or more precisely the force of
>inertia, makes the back side of the earth appear to
>be raised ...
>
>If you tie a string to a metal nut or washer and
>swing it about your head, the centripetal force is the force
>on the string you exert to keep your end of the string centered.
>The centrifugal force is the matching force from the
>other end of the string caused by the inertia of the nut.
>To maintain the circular motion, the nut is being made to
>accelerate by the centripital force.  Its resistance to
>this acceleration is called its inertia.
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>Your AEH is very enlightening; but, as usual, I'm having a
>conceptual hangup.  In our previous discussion of the bump
>on the Earth opposite the Moon, you use the term centifugal
>force (or "force of inertia".)  I agree with that usage,
>although standard physics texts state that the centrifugal
>force is an illusion, a virtual force.


This "standard physics" is just plain inconsistent thinking in my opinion.
The centrifugal force is no more an illusion or virtual than any other case
where the force of inirtia is applied.  If the nut is accelerated linearly
by pulling on the sting, the resistance to the pull, inirtia, is very real.
There is no difference in that force if the nut happens to be
simultaneously moving in another axis.   The resisting force, transferred
through the outward tension on the string, is still that same force of
inirtia.  The force of inirtia is transferred through the string via the
electrostatic force of molecular bonds.  Similarly, the force of inirtia of
the mass of the back side of the earth is transferred to the front side via
the electrostatic bonds in the material of the earth.  The forces are all
balanced.  The gravitaitional force on the earth as a whole is balanced by
the gravitational force on the moon.  All the forces sum to zero, else the
earth-moon system as a whole would spontaneously accelerate in some
direction, violating Newtons laws, and thus forcing a self inconsistency in
the laws.


>
>Obviously, the centripetal force on the nut is a net (or
>unbalanced) force.

No.  The inirtia of the nut exactly balances the force applied to the other
end of the string.  The forces are at all times balanced.  The centripetal
and centrifugal forces always match.  This is simple Newtonian physics,
obtained by breaking down the system into its constituant elements. If the
laws broke down when applied to components of a system, then the laws would
be invalid, self-inconsistent.


>Otherwise the nut would not be accelerated
>to maintain its uniform circular motion.


As an aside, and for clarity, let's keep in mind that the angular velocity
as discussed so far is uniform.  The acceleration that occurs is still tha
actual acceleration of the nut required for it to travel a curved path.  If
the angular velocity were accelerating, then the centrifugal force would be
increasing. In the steady state, constant angular velocity we are
discussing, the centrifugal and centripital forces match.


>However, anyone who
>has been "centifuged" in the rotor at an amusement park
>knows that his back is pressing against the wall.


Yes, the force of his inirtia is applied electrostatically (i.e
mechanically, via electrostatic forces occuring at surface interactions and
lattice deformations) to the components of the ride which directly causes
his acceleration, press on him, and that force is similarly transmitted
through the mechanisms of the ride.


>And, if
>I catch the nut in a butterfly net, there is no longer a
>net centripetal force on the nut, although it seems quite
>a stretch to me to call the force exerted by the net a
>centrifugal force.


This really complicates things.  If the string is broken, then the nut
flies off tangentially at uniform velocity in a straight line.  Catching
the nut is then merely decelerating it, a clear case of the force of
inirtia on the net.  If the nut is still in uniform motion on the end of
the string, then the decelleration of catching it in a net is much more
complicated, because angular decelleration is also involved.  In the limit,
if the decelleration due to the net is arbitrarily large, then the
direction of force on the net is purely tangential to the path of the nut.


>
>You wrote above:  "Further expansion of the
>de-ionized product to it's final size results in work being
>performed on the lattice."
>
>Is this work the result of applying unbalanced force to
>the lattice?

Well, the forces all balance.  It is just that a new equilibrium is
established by atomic expansion, and that requires work to make the changes
in momentum (and the corresponding energy) states of the surrounding
lattice, in addition to work required for any accelerations of mass
involved.

The force applied by the electron waveform when it is expanding is in part
balanced by the inirtia of the particles of the lattice as they are forced
to move, but (mostly) by the inirtia of the lattice electron waveforms
which prevents them from being distorted.  This is of course very much
complicated by quantum mechanics, and I do not understand the QM
complications. For example, minor lattice distortions, which are
insufficient to to generate a quantum of energy, i.e. insufficient to
generate a phonon, occur even though the unit of energy involved is less
than a quantum.  All very strange.  It is also true that, with distance
from the nucleus, electron waveforms can lose some of their quantum
waveform nature, and become more particle like in nature.  A common sense
Newtonian appreciation for the AEH, which is fairly simple minded to begin
with, merely requires that you accept that the wave nature of the electron
allows it to act like a spherical shell, the size of which is positively
related to its energy and momentum.  The force the shell can exert (to
resist distortion) is proportional to the momentum of the electron in the
shell.  The ability of the shell to resist distortion is positively related
to the momentum and thus energy carried by the electron in its orbital.

Perhaps a balloon provides a good Newtonian mental model of the shell in
this case.  The pressure the balloon can exert depends on the momentum of
the particles in the gas in the ballon.  If the particles are suddenly
given increased momentum, then the balloon expands.  The expansion can also
be viewed in terms of increasd orbital diameter, the increase of which is
due to increased angular velocity (momentum) of the electron, i.e and
increase in orbital electron energy.  I think the orbital concept is the
one you are attemtping to apply.  An AE electron, however, I think has not
yet formed a legitimate orbital, because the quanta are not established
during the expansion.  in any case, the important part of the hypothesis is
that a volume near the nucleus which is the seed of the atomic expansion
(the AE nucleus) is swept clear of other particles.  This sweeping clear of
the space, and the maintaining of that state, requires that the electron
doing the sweeping have a momentum and energy whcih corresponds positively
to the volume swept clear.  Ignoring the complication of the possible wild
orbital geometries involved, and just considering spherical geometries, the
radius of the sphere swept clean is a function of the energy of the (AE)
electron doing the sweeping.  This relationship is one of equilibrium.  If
the energy of the electron diminishes, so does the volume swept clean by
the electron.  The volume of its "balloon" deflates.

Back to your question; "Is this work the result of applying unbalanced
force to the lattice?"  I would say that the unbalanced force, if there be
such, is the force that makes the electron gain momentum based on the
volume it occupies.  This is a direct result of the Heisenberg uncertainty
principle, which guarantess that matter can not achieve absoltue zero
temperature.  The energy that keeps the temperature above absolute zero is
called zero point energy.

Uncertainty of momentum for a particle (electron) constrained by distance
delta x is given by:

   delta mv = h/(2 Pi delta x)

but since

   KE = 1/2 m v^2 = 1/(2 m) {delta mv)^2

   delta KE = 1/(2 m) (h/(2 Pi delta x))^2

   delta KE = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 m)    (delta x)^2

the more you can confine the POSITION of an electron the more energy you
can get out of it.  If an electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom volume
there is an uncertainty of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the momentum and thus
6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV uncertainty on energy.

The "balloon" the electron occupies thus involves an equilibrium energy. It
has been proposed by Hal Puthoff and others that it is this principle,
additional energy supplied from the ZPE sea upon confinement, that keeps
atoms from collapsing, that keeps the unlike charges about us, and of which
we are made, from shrinking to a point.  When pressure is applied to the
ballon, energy of the electron increases, and the resisting pressure of the
balloon increases.

Looked at from your centrifugal force point of view, it is the force
causing ANGULAR acceleration of the orbital elecron that is not balanced,
and this force results in an increased centrifugal force that inflates the
orital.


>Is the lattice deformed like a spring, or is
>something else going on?


Yes, the expansion, or rather the lattice distortion produced by the
expansion, is spring like, but phonons (quantized lattice motion similar to
sound waves) generated by lattice distortions produce heat.  The springs
are not ideal.  If the (AE) expansion occurs in a liquid, then all the
expansion energy goes into heat, less what goes into the electron (orbital)
itself.  If the (AE) expansion occurs in a gas, then it must happen when
two atoms are indirect contact, otherwise the increased atomic volume
should have almost no effect on the gas pressure.



>I would appreciate your thoughts
>on this.
>
>Thanks, Jack Smith
>
>PS When a non-homogeneous liquid such as milk or blood
>is centrifuged,  what is the math for predicting that the
>denser portion of the fluid will move to the bottom of
>the test tube?


I assume this is for a high school class?

Well, I'll try to muddle through this.

This is just a complication Archmede's principle, the principle of bouyancy.

The pressure at a given depth h in a fluid of density d is given by:

   p =  g d h + p0

where g = 9.8 m/s^2, and p0 is the pressure at the fluid surface.  Applying
this formula, you can see that the pressure on the top of an object in a
fluid is less than the pressure on the bottom.  By the application of
calculus, you can prove Archmede's principle that the (bouyant) force on a
submerged object is equal to the force due to the weight of the fluid
displaced, less the force of the weight of the object

   f = m g

or you can simply accept Archemede's principle based on experimental
experience, etc.  If V is the volume of the object, then the net bouyant
force as given by Archemedes principle is

  Fb = g d V - m g

if D is the density of the object, then the bouyancy is

  Fb = g d V - D V g = g V (d - D)

thus denser objects sink at a faster rate, or rise at a faster rate,
depending on whether d - D is negative or positive.

If you place the fluid in a centrifuge, where, say, the rotation is about a
vertical axis, then g becomes the acceleration due to the centrifuge
motion, and is itself a function of "depth" h, which has now become a
function radial distance.  The weight of the bouyant object has now been
translated into the centripetal force F = m w^2 r, where m is the mass of
the body, w is the angular velocity, r is the distance of the body center
of gravity from the axis of rotation.  If the surface of the liquid is at
radius r0, and the depth is h, then the radius of the object is r = h + r0.

However, notice that the use of F = m w^2 r in place of F = m g is merely a
substitution of some junk (namely w^2 r) for g, and has no effect on the
basic nature of Archemede's principle at all if the objects are small.
Provided the size of the particle is small, we can simply say that g = f(h)
for the centrifuge (where f is a  monotoniclly increasing function f)  and
thus:

  Fb = f(h) V (d - D)

and we still have the same relationship that the bouyant force on dense
items is larger than on less dense items.

If the items involved are large, then things are more complex, because g
changes with depth, but, since we are dealing with only fluids, we can
assume only molecular sizes are involved.

Note that when a molecule is located within a layer of its own kind of
molecules that d = D and Fb = 0, there is no bouyant force on the molecule.
For this reason each density of fluid "seeks its own level" where the
molecules at a fluid boundary with less depth are less dense, have less
bouyant force, and those at a fluid boundary of greater depth are more
dense, and have a greater bouyant force.  Those within a given layer have
no bouyant force at all.

I hope this was all correct and enough to be helpful.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 13:30:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11984;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:27:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:27:26 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b88f39268c52 [12.21.211.7]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:30:28 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: THE ATOMIC EXPANSION HYPOTHESIS
Resent-Message-ID: <"NRXAZ2.0.7x2.zYOQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46107
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

It would have been more helpful had I looked up the spelling of Archimedes.
Sorry!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 17:52:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07615;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:47:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:47:25 -0800
Message-ID: <001901c1b427$da6411c0$dd95fc9e computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <fstenger@suite224.net>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>,
        <Deubedoo aol.com>, <puthoff@aol.com>, <crquin@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Electrostatics and Electrostatic Spacecraft Propulsion?
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:46:14 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"FE3ov2.0.ps1.jMSQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46108
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Since the 1/R^2 "Antigravity Force" doesn't seem to be in the cards.  :-)

Suppose that one built a spherical or saucer-shaped ten ton Moon Weight)spacecraft on
the atmosphere-free Moon (or several hundred tons on an asteroid) and charged it up to
some charge Q, using the Van de Graaff or Electron Gun approach, then blasted it away
with rocket propulsion.

Seems to me that it could soft land on the Earth or Mars, because of an electrostatic
repulsion force:
F = kQs*Qp^2/R^2 (Newton). Where Qs is the charge on the "ship" and Qp is the charge
on the Planet or the Sun. k ~ = 9E9

If this is so, this electrostatic force using the Planets and/or the Sun could be used
for interplanetary or interstellar "Propellant-less" Propulsion.

Jovian Thunderbolts,too?  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 12 20:43:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15722;
	Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:40:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:40:37 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Down with hydrogen economy, up with aluminum economy
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:39:36 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <3arj6ukvgr67aoh4cgpoj8paqlctv0l6is 4ax.com>
References: <v01530501b88d24c9da6b [12.21.209.93]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b88d24c9da6b [12.21.209.93]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA15676
Resent-Message-ID: <"8Lb_93.0.ar3.5vUQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46109
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:37:37
-0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>>>the high energy content of aluminum.  An air-aluminum battery could
>>>possibly be developed.
>>[snip]
>>AFAIK it was. Decades ago.
>
>
>Any idea if it worked OK?  I suppose not, else they would be in common use.

Actually I thought it did, and was rather surprised when I heard nothing
further about it.

>I also suppose that is not proof that an efficent one could not be
>feasible.
[snip]
BTW take a look at http://www.ifdt.uh.edu/projects.html .


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 05:10:19 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA16601;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:04:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:04:35 -0800
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:04:39 -0800
Subject: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B88FCE96.141A%editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dLqdS.0.J34.ZHcQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46110
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 





Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 10/02/2002)


            A SPACE probe launched 30 years ago has come under the
influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the
laws of physics.

            Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up
pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being
pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect shows no sign of
getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and
scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a
new force of nature.


                  Click to enlarge
            Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the
craft, said: "We have examined every mechanism and theory we can think
of and so far nothing works.

            "If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on
cosmology and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace
Corporation of California.

            Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with
Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
distant planet in our solar system.

            Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars
that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are
continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven
billion miles from Earth.

            Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a
leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is
being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect
about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.

            Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny
rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear
power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The
team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all
the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar
radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.

            The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility
that the two probes are being affected by the gravitational pull of
unknown planets beyond the solar system.

            Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a
quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery
that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two other
space probes still in the solar system. Data from these two probes
suggests the force is of the same strength as that found for the
Pioneers.

            Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University,
says even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale.
"It might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions
of years, which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also
raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of gravity."

            Until 1988, Pioneer 10 was the most remote object made by
man - a distinction now held by Voyager 1. Should Pioneer 10 make
contact with alien life, it carries a gold-plated aluminium plaque on
which the figures of a man and woman are shown to scale, along with a
map showing its origin that Nasa calls "the cosmic equivalent of a
message in a bottle".






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 08:42:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02513;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:40:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:40:00 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213113753.00ac9798 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:40:26 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"29dFw3.0.Bd.WRfQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46111
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

See:

"California system was easy pickings
Enron helped build market, then exploited weaknesses"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/02/03/MN208761.DTL


Energy is the story behind the story in much of the news, especially bad 
news. From war to corruption to pollution, energy is the root cause.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 09:06:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14624;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:03:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:03:44 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213114320.00ae6990 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:03:45 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Bush admin. denies cutting hybrid car R&D
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"GnIDu1.0.Pa3.lnfQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46112
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Here is a letter published in the Washington Post:

February 13, 2002
Hybrid Cars
To the Editor:

Re "Politics Keep Shifting in the Gas-Mileage Debate" (Business Day, Feb. 6):

The Bush administration has not "scrapped" research on hybrid and other 
near-term technologies to pursue the long-term promise of hydrogen fuel 
cell vehicles. In fact, the president's budget for our new Freedom Car 
initiative proposes to spend 93 percent of the amount dedicated last year 
to hybrid technologies under the old program.

Research on near-term technology is important, but we aim to devote more to 
the technologies that could ultimately free us from oil imports. . . .

DAVID K. GARMAN
Assistant Secretary of Energy
Washington, Feb. 6, 2002

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

It is not clear what this phrase "93 percent of the amount dedicated last 
year" means. Perhaps only a small amount was spent last year, and this was 
scheduled to be increased, but it has now been cut somewhat.

Frankly, I think government R&D into advanced automobiles should be 
canceled, because the automobile manufacturers themselves seem 
unenthusiastic. The Japanese manufacturers developed hybrid cars without 
help from their government. I'm sure the U.S. manufacturers could move 
ahead without government help if they wanted to. I think the government 
should raise the CAFE standards and let industry worry about how it will 
meet them. U.S. DoE programs have had little impact on U.S. energy 
efficiency or consumption. The DoE spends $7.7 billion per year on 
research. I do not know much about the results (except hot fusion), and I 
hesitate to criticize research I have not investigated carefully, but it 
seems this research is not having much of an effect. The U.S. remains less 
energy efficient than its commercial rivals in Europe and Japan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 09:17:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20354;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:14:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:14:31 -0800
Message-ID: <3C6A9EEC.2505DD4B mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:14:21 -0500
From: sno <sno2 mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bush admin. denies cutting hybrid car R&D
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213114320.00ae6990 pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"50_3X3.0.xz4.txfQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46113
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


It is my understanding that when the government
says "cuts" it means the increase is not as 
much as was expected.....example....one percent
increase when a three percent increase was 
expected/planned...very few programs are 
actually "cut" once they are started....

thank you for listening to my thoughts...

steve opelc

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Here is a letter published in the Washington Post:
> 
> February 13, 2002
> Hybrid Cars
> To the Editor:
> 
> Re "Politics Keep Shifting in the Gas-Mileage Debate" (Business Day, Feb. 6):
> 
> The Bush administration has not "scrapped" research on hybrid and other
> near-term technologies to pursue the long-term promise of hydrogen fuel
> cell vehicles. In fact, the president's budget for our new Freedom Car
> initiative proposes to spend 93 percent of the amount dedicated last year
> to hybrid technologies under the old program.
> 
> Research on near-term technology is important, but we aim to devote more to
> the technologies that could ultimately free us from oil imports. . . .
> 
> DAVID K. GARMAN
> Assistant Secretary of Energy
> Washington, Feb. 6, 2002
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> It is not clear what this phrase "93 percent of the amount dedicated last
> year" means. Perhaps only a small amount was spent last year, and this was
> scheduled to be increased, but it has now been cut somewhat.
> 
> Frankly, I think government R&D into advanced automobiles should be
> canceled, because the automobile manufacturers themselves seem
> unenthusiastic. The Japanese manufacturers developed hybrid cars without
> help from their government. I'm sure the U.S. manufacturers could move
> ahead without government help if they wanted to. I think the government
> should raise the CAFE standards and let industry worry about how it will
> meet them. U.S. DoE programs have had little impact on U.S. energy
> efficiency or consumption. The DoE spends $7.7 billion per year on
> research. I do not know much about the results (except hot fusion), and I
> hesitate to criticize research I have not investigated carefully, but it
> seems this research is not having much of an effect. The U.S. remains less
> energy efficient than its commercial rivals in Europe and Japan.
> 
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 09:40:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02282;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:37:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:37:10 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:37:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213113753.00ac9798 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020213092624.18108A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Qjt3_.0.8Z.2HgQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46114
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


This paper is not very credible. 

The state of California set a limit on how much they can sell their
electricity for. They also, via enviromental legislation, made California
very dependent upon natural gas for electricty generation.

When the price of natural gas rose, it forced Southern California Edison
and Pacific Gas and Electric to sell power below their cost. This
condition continued until the two companies became a bad credit risk and
eventually went bankrupt.

Doing business with a company with bad credit involves risk in not getting
repaid. This caused the energy producers to sell energy to SCE & PG&E at
risk adjusted prices. Basically, if you have a 50% chance of being repaid,
the risk adjusted price is twice the normal value. 10% chance means a risk
adjusted price of ten times normal value. The choice to NOT sell to SCE
and PG&E was not there by law. All they could do is discourage their
purchasing the energy with risk adjusted prices.

There was very little evidence of actual price gouging. 

When California bought the eletricity and sold it to SCE & PG&E, the risk
was reduced to California's credit level and prices quickly returned to
normal. This shows that the problem was credit risk, not market
manipulation. 

I realize that anti-big business elements have used this issue to advocate
more socialist policies. There have been cries for the state of California
to socialize the electric power industry. There is no cause to do this.
The "fix" is to stop electing political types who are trying to get
something for less than what it cost, hwich is the real cause of the
problem. 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
> 
> "California system was easy pickings
> Enron helped build market, then exploited weaknesses"
> 
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/02/03/MN208761.DTL
> 
> 
> Energy is the story behind the story in much of the news, especially bad 
> news. From war to corruption to pollution, energy is the root cause.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 09:44:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05742;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:43:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:43:50 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:43:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electrostatics and Electrostatic Spacecraft Propulsion?
In-Reply-To: <001901c1b427$da6411c0$dd95fc9e computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020213094034.18108B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"q5y8J.0.eP1.LNgQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46115
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Since the 1/R^2 "Antigravity Force" doesn't seem to be in the cards.  :-)
> 
> Suppose that one built a spherical or saucer-shaped ten ton Moon Weight)spacecraft on
> the atmosphere-free Moon (or several hundred tons on an asteroid) and charged it up to
> some charge Q, using the Van de Graaff or Electron Gun approach, then blasted it away
> with rocket propulsion.

It would have to escape not only the gravitaional potential well, but the
electrostatic one that you created. Whatever charge you put on the
vehicle, you put an equal and opposite charge on the moon. 

 
> Seems to me that it could soft land on the Earth or Mars, because of an electrostatic
> repulsion force:
> F = kQs*Qp^2/R^2 (Newton). Where Qs is the charge on the "ship" and Qp is the charge
> on the Planet or the Sun. k ~ = 9E9

The charege on the ship, when approaching an electrically neutral planet,
would, like the charged pith ball which attracts a neutral pith ball,
would create an additional force on the vehicle until the vehicle
discharged to the planet. 

I don't see the advatage. 


> If this is so, this electrostatic force using the Planets and/or the Sun could be used
> for interplanetary or interstellar "Propellant-less" Propulsion.
> 
> Jovian Thunderbolts,too?  :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 11:00:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12203;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:57:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:57:25 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213133238.00b05818 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:57:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020213092624.18108A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213113753.00ac9798 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"A8AjD2.0.Y-2.KShQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46116
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>I realize that anti-big business elements have used this issue to advocate
>more socialist policies. There have been cries for the state of California
>to socialize the electric power industry.

I have not seen socialism advocated. It seems to be a fight within the 
capitalist camp. It is one large industry sector fighting another; Enron 
vs. PG&E. Enron used political influence to create a system unfairly 
stacked in its favor, and then used clever, unethical tricks described in 
the article, such as: "purposely overschedule power deliveries and end up 
getting paid to not deliver."

Corporations all say they are in favor of free market capitalism, but 
throughout history they have devised uncompetitive, unfair schemes & laws 
to cheat their customers and bash their competition.


>There is no cause to do this.
>The "fix" is to stop electing political types who are trying to get
>something for less than what it cost, which is the real cause of the
>problem.

Electricity in California is more expensive than it is in the rest of the 
country, and it has been for a long time, except in Los Angeles where the 
power company is owned by the city . . .  a form of socialism, come to 
think of it. Deregulation was supposed to bring California prices down to 
the national average. I think it would have, if it had been implemented 
correctly. Deregulation is not being scrapped. The laws are being revised, 
and in the future costs probably will fall. There is no going back to the 
old regulated scheme.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:38:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01919;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:37:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:37:17 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified)
Message-Id: <a0510030eb88fa7e2c83f [4.46.76.99]>
In-Reply-To: <001901c1b317$a900b4a0$8837fea9 computer>
References: <001901c1b317$a900b4a0$8837fea9 computer>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:35:19 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Quadrupole device and Gow magnetron
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"LhHeW.0.vT.zviQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46117
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Jones Breene posted'


>The Quadrupole stripping device is basically a NMR resonance reactor that
>implements the brilliant suggestion of Robert Eachus: that flipping 
>the spin of the proton WRT its loosely bound neutron, if it can be 
>done, would actually
>result in a slightly negative binding energy, which could then lead to fission
>in the D2 nucleus.  It has been four years since this suggestion and it is a
>shame that no well-equipped experimenter has taken real notice of the
>implications. I don't fall into the category of well-equipped, by 
>any means, but at least I did go to the trouble of acquiring and 
>converting a radar magnetron tube for that purpose before loosing 
>interest and going off on yet another tangent that led nowhere.

Are you saying that there is a way, by inputting energy into the 
system to change the spin of the proton? I have often reflected on 
this question. The other question I have is can you change the spin 
angle of the proton?

>
>But in rethinking the situation after rereading Horace's post, I think I know
>why an axial magnetron wouldn't have worked anyway and also have found
>references to a design change that could lead to the optimization of the what
>should be called the "polarization" principle of Oppenheimer-Phillips
>"stripping,"  which seems to be another way of accomplishing the kind of spin
>flipping the Eachus was aiming for.

Do tell us more! Having wetted my appetite, I hope you have more to 
say about this.

>
>
>BTW, if there are any young inventors out there who want to "borrow" these
>ideas, don't worry about the IP consequences, there are none, and as for
>incentive, just remember that Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace reportedly paid Miley
>$10 mill for his Fusor, not too shabby for what is almost an exact copy of the
>Farnsworth design - go figure.

$10M!!! Cool, This is the first I've heard of this. It holds out 
promice that Chris Arnold's dreams will be fulfilled.

>
>Jones


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:39:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01971;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:37:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:37:21 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified)
Message-Id: <a0510030fb88fab85a315 [4.46.76.99]>
In-Reply-To: 
 <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211114620.17747I-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
References: 
 <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020211114620.17747I-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:35:19 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: aluminum "battery"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"gWGgj2.0.aU.0wiQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46118
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This story reminds me of a product that some folks I know are 
marketing a magnesium battery. Just add salt brine and out comes 12 V 
for several hours. Great if you happen to be in the middle of the 
ocean with no source of electricity for your radio.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:39:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02050;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:37:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:37:26 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified)
Message-Id: <a05100310b88fac5ad50d [4.46.76.99]>
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211121957.0303a0a0 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020211121957.0303a0a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:35:19 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Hybrid engine Honda Civic introduced
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"TAlqZ.0.pV.5wiQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46119
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Jed Rothwell posted;



>Synthesizing fuel from carbon and water requires more energy than 
>the fuel produces. If you have a source of energy this abundant, you 
>might as well use it directly, unless it is located far from 
>population centers and can only be shipped in the form of fuel. In 
>this case, it would probably be best to synthesize hydrogen.
>
According to the man who was interviewed on Art Bell about hydrogen, 
he said that if we could glass over all of Nevada we could grow algae 
in a H2 atmosphere, it produces more H2

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:45:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05951;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:45:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:45:04 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:44:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
Reply-To: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213133238.00b05818 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020213122326.29732A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"VahEU2.0.kS1.F1jQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46120
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >I realize that anti-big business elements have used this issue to advocate
> >more socialist policies. There have been cries for the state of California
> >to socialize the electric power industry.
> 
> I have not seen socialism advocated.

Socialism is the government ownership of the means of production. Many in
California have advocated that the State take ownership of the power
distribution companies SCE & PG&E.

> It seems to be a fight within the 
> capitalist camp. It is one large industry sector fighting another; Enron 
> vs. PG&E. Enron used political influence to create a system unfairly 
> stacked in its favor, and then used clever, unethical tricks described in 
> the article, such as: "purposely overschedule power deliveries and end up 
> getting paid to not deliver."

Enron uses defacto bribes to get political influence. Giving money to one
party is free speech. Giving money to both parties is clearly a bribe. 

Still, we as a people accept this kind of bribery. We vote for people who
made these laws. 

The thesis of the article is that Enron wrote the legislation and passed
it, knowing that they would benefit from it. The conclusion seems to be
that makes Enron unethical. 

Assume that Enron did this...

There is no mention of any responsibility on the part of the government of
California, as if it is expected that elected representatives would and
should take the request of special interest groups that given them bags of
money and not question those request and cast them into law, unchanged.

The people with the authority get the responsibility. Enron doesn't have
and never did have the authority. The California government did. The
excuse that they took Enron's money and gave them what they wanted, so
Enron is to blame, is bogus. It was their job to work for the people, not
corporations that bribed them. 

> Corporations all say they are in favor of free market capitalism, but 
> throughout history they have devised uncompetitive, unfair schemes & laws 
> to cheat their customers and bash their competition.

Corporations don't pass laws. The people we vote for pass laws. 

Using the government to manipulate the market is not free market
capitalism. 

 
> >There is no cause to do this.
> >The "fix" is to stop electing political types who are trying to get
> >something for less than what it cost, which is the real cause of the
> >problem.
> 
> Electricity in California is more expensive than it is in the rest of the 
> country, and it has been for a long time, except in Los Angeles where the 
> power company is owned by the city . . .  a form of socialism, come to 
> think of it. Deregulation was supposed to bring California prices down to 
> the national average. I think it would have, if it had been implemented 
> correctly. Deregulation is not being scrapped. The laws are being revised, 
> and in the future costs probably will fall. There is no going back to the 
> old regulated scheme.

You are assuming that there is perfect mobility between the California
electric market and the rest of the country. There isn't. Transmission of
power to California has line losses, that immediately raises the price.
Further, generation in California is more expensive due to the
enviromental constraints. It is only natural that power in California cost
more given the (government created) market conditions.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:50:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08079;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:48:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:48:02 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b8907523ec11 [12.21.208.204]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:50:47 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: The Centrifuge
Resent-Message-ID: <"IJYmN3.0.9-1.14jQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46121
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:45 AM 2/12/2, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>PS When a non-homogeneous liquid such as milk or blood
>is centrifuged,  what is the math for predicting that the
>denser portion of the fluid will move to the bottom of
>the test tube?


This is just a complication of Archimedes' principle, the principle of
buoyancy.

The pressure at a given depth h in a fluid of density d is given by:

   p =  g d h + p0

where g = 9.8 m/s^2, and p0 is the pressure at the fluid surface.  Applying
this formula, you can see that the pressure on the top of an object in a
fluid is less than the pressure on the bottom.  By the application of
calculus, you can prove Archimedes' principle that the (buoyant) force on a
submerged object is equal to the force due to the weight of the volume V of
fluid displaced:

   Fd = g d V

less the force of the weight of the object:

   f = m g

or you can simply accept Archimedes' principle based on experimental
experience, etc.  The net buoyant force as given by Archimedes' principle
is:

  Fb = g d V - m g

If D is the density of the object, then the buoyancy is

  Fb = g d V - D V g = g V (d - D)

thus denser objects sink at a faster rate, or rise at a faster rate,
depending on whether d - D is negative or positive.

If you place the fluid in a centrifuge, where, say, the rotation is about a
vertical axis, then g becomes the acceleration due to the centrifuge
motion, and is itself a function of "depth" h, which has now become a
function radial distance.  The weight of the buoyant object has now been
translated into, now corresponds to, the centripetal force:

   Fc = m w^2 r

where m is the mass of the body, w is the angular velocity, r is the
distance of the body center of gravity from the axis of rotation.  If the
surface of the liquid is at radius r0, and the depth is h, then the radius
r is given by:

   r = h + r0

However, notice that the use of F = m w^2 r in place of F = m g is merely a
substitution of some junk (namely w^2 r) for g, and has no effect on the
basic nature of Archimedes' principle at all if the objects are small.
Provided the size of the particle is small, we can simply say that

g = f(h) = w^2 (h + r0) = w^2 h + w^2 r0

for the centrifuge and thus:

  Fb = f(h) V (d - D)

and, because f is a  monotoniclly increasing function, we still have the
same relationship that the buoyant force on dense items is larger than on
less dense items.

If the items involved are large, then things are more complex, because g
changes with depth, but, since we are dealing with only fluids or very
small items, we can assume only molecular sizes are involved.

Note that when a molecule is located within a layer of its own kind of
molecules that d = D and thus Fb = 0, there is no buoyant force on the
molecule.  For this reason each density of fluid "seeks its own level"
where the molecules at a fluid boundary with less depth are less dense,
have less buoyant force, and those at a fluid boundary of greater depth are
more dense, and have a greater buoyant force.  Those within a given layer
have no buoyant force at all.

As a practical note, centrifuging is used for a lot more than fluid
separation.  It is used to separate cell bodies form small tissue samples,
for example, mitochondira from golgi bodies from chromosomes, etc., after
the cell membrane is broken by grinding or by enzymes. In this case the
volume of heavy objects is very small, and, in a uniform density light
fluid, all end up in a film at the bottom of the centrifuge vial.  To avoid
this, a density gradient is prepared.  This gradient is often prepared from
sugar water.  I had the pleasure of actually doing this in a part time job
in college.  The tubes are laid on an angle with very dense sugar water in,
them.  This forms a dense taffy like prism on the side of the vials.  Water
is then poured into the tube, and the tube stirred  by a stirrer that only
stirs a thin level of the tube.  The density of the sugar water thus is
maintained as large at the bottom of the tube, but only the density of
water at the top, with a fairly uniform density gradient throughout.  This
gives:

   d = k h

Sometimes other methods are used to create gradients approximating

   d = k h^2.

Machines are available that create density gradients by automatically
dispensing the right ratio of surgar to water at a given level and mixing
simultaneously.

Now that d is a function of h, even one small body can find its own level
in the vial, provided the gradient density range in the vial spans the
density of the object.  The gradient is modified somewhat by centrifuging,
but the range is kept nearly intact.  It is important to run long enough to
separate the bodies, but not so long as to destroy the gradient.  A thin
layer of cell material is placed on top of the vial.  After centrifuging,
the cell bodies are separated (by their density) into visible thin layers
throughout the vial in a manner similar to the way chemicals are separated
by electrophoresis.  It is quite a novel experience.

As an aside, I  should mention that I often found that the glass vials had
a significant electrostatic charge after removal from the centrifuge.  This
was amazing, considering that the centrifuge rotor and cells for the vials
were made of metal. I was not able to explain this.

I hope this was all correct and enough to be helpful.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 13:22:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27963;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:20:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:20:08 -0800
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:12:54 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Spin interactions and how to visualize them
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <004701c1b4d3$346ad400$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"lp-lL.0.gq6.7YjQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46122
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anyone who has read Oliver Sachs ( "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat"
"Hidden Histories of Science") may appreciate there are many strange facets of
human mentality, a few of which may be called abnormal but are advantageous in
certain circumstances. There are mathematicians, for instance, who can multiply,
say two 5 digit numbers instantly, or when presented with a formula, even if it
is complex calculus, are able to get a mental visualization of a dynamic
relationship between spatial objects.

Mental visualization in other aspects of science is important. Just as the
"liquid drop" model of nuclei was helpful in understanding nuclear fission,
there is the possibility that a more accurate visualization of the atomic
interactions of hydrogen isotopes in a warm plasma or in a metal matrix, could
facilitate the design of devices that convert the nuclear energy of these
isotopes into usable forms. This may be a strained metaphor, in that the
particular liquid drop model didn't necessarily result in an improved device,
but I use it particularly because it does also provide some insight into the
malleable structure of deuterium nucleus, along with what can be called the
"dumbbell model."

Any long-term reader of vortex has probably surmised that Sachs could probably
find a few future case studies here, and maybe one of them will conjure up for
us a more accurate vision of cold fusion at the sub-atomic level. Until such
time, I hope others will resist the opportunity to pun-ish us with some more
vulgar aspect of a visualizations of "stripping" - after all we don't want to
arouse prurient interests, whatever that is  ;-}

Not too long ago, 60 researchers completed experiments at the National
Accelerator Facility in  Newport News, Va., in which a high-energy electron beam
interacted with deuterons to resolve details just half the proton's size. The
results indicate that contrary to some theoretical predictions - the deuteron
can be adequately described as consisting of two particles loosely bound
together into a pulsating dumbbell shape: they concluded that "we don't have to
worry about the quarks and gluons" in describing deuteron structure at higher
energies.

Although the neutron binding energy in the deuteron appears to be 2.2 MeV,
plasmas of a few eV and can knock neutrons out of deuterons in such a way that
the neutron goes free. That much is not in doubt. In 1935 Robert Oppenheimer and
Melba Phillips made a basic contribution to quantum theory, discovering  what is
known as the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect, and to this day the implications of it
are not fully appreciated, even among high energy physicists. In fact, I have a
grave suspicions the widely used D+D plasma cross-section table that is used by
physicists all over the world was constructed without correction for neutron
stripping reactions.

The two physicists found that, when a deuteron is fired into a target atom even
weakly, the neutron of that atom can be stripped off the proton and penetrate
the nucleus of the target.  Before, it had been assumed that since the deuteron
and target nucleus are both positively charged, each would just repel the other
except in high-energy collisions. The Oppenheimer-Phillips effect suggests that
electric polarization, at low energies of impinging deuterons, may act to
nullify coulomb repulsion to a certain extent but that the effect is limited to
deuterons, because it is the only nucleus in the periodic table in which the
overall positive charge can be self-shielded WRT another nuclei. But they did
not consider the contribution of spin.

Any free neutron should possess an average ~2.5 MeV initially if it comes from
D+D fusion, and it "should" require almost that much input energy to split it
off through spallation, but if the neutron comes from a stripping reaction, it
is most often just a thermal neutron, ab initio, and one must look elsewhere to
determine what happened to the lost 2.2 MeV binding energy. In the strange world
of quantum mechanics, where "time shifting" is not a fiction, it would appear
that the excess energy was effectively "borrowed," but here is the kicker, it
was repaid before it was borrowed and therefore is presently absent !! That is
to say, in stripping, the energy deficit that appears to prohibit the reaction
from happening in the first place comes from the energy that should have been
left over once it happened.

Most physicists who have not studied the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect assume that
stripping is a form of spallation: which is a nuclear reaction in which a
high-energy photon (i.e. EM radiation) causes a particles (most often, neutron)
to be emitted from a target nucleus (usually a nucleus of high atomic number).
Spallation is often initiated by a high-energy ion fired from an accelerator. In
spallation, the accelerated particle does not enter the nucleus but instead
travels close enough to initiate a high energy photonic transfer with that
nucleus - that is, spallation is the result of a self-absorbed bremsstrahlung
emission. We know this because many of those photons are not absorbed and are
easily detected.

Side note: Bremsstrahlung is German for "Braking Radiation" -  EM radiation from
a charged particle as it slows down (decelerates), or as it changes direction
rapidly. Spallation, then, is best understood as a subset of Photofission:
which is the splitting of an atom by the collision of a high-energy photon with
the nucleus. In spallation, the photofission photon is self-induced.

But Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping is neither traditional spallation nor
photofission, at least insofar as there is no high energy photon transfer, and
we know this because none are detected - and they would be easy to detect if
they were there - except for this qualification: extreme ultraviolet photons are
universally absorbed by plasmas. OK, let me then qualify the preceding statement
in this way: Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping, if it is spallation, could only be
mediated by a photon which is not easily detectable, in other words, an EUV
photon. This distinction is of particular importance in regard to Randell Mills
hydrino theory in which EUV is implicated in certain novel hydrogen reactions.

When neutrons are seen in a "warm" deuterium plasma, i.e. a few eV of energy,
then  Boltzman's tail of that energy distribution will mean that some collisions
will be at much higher energy - but "true" spallation would require 2.2 MeV
photons and there are zero detected in these situations, in fact there are no
soft x-rays even, so either we are dealing with a new kind of spallation, i.e.
ultraviolet photon mediated, or more likely the neutrons are not the result of
thermal collision at all, except to the extent that the collision changes the
spin of proton WRT the neutron.

In an earlier post, I mentioned the brilliant observation of several years ago
by Robert Eachus, that flipping the spin of only the deuterium proton, if it can
be done, would actually result in a slightly negative binding energy, which
could then lead to fission in the D2 nucleus.  This would be the alternate modus
operandi of stripping.

And in the prior post, in regard to reclassified material from secret research
in1955-58 at Berkeley, where Gow found neutrons in deuterium plasmas that could
not possibly have been produced by thermal collisions, there were two points of
interest: neutron production was quenched by an axial magnetic field but
enhanced by a crossed field, implying but that the stripping might involve
induced spin - and further that neutron yield did not rise when the applied
voltage was increased, which is consistent with the spin explanation but not
with other explanations.

Before learning about the Gow work, the mental visualization that I had of
stripping was that the shielded end of the D nucleus must be heading directly
into valence band of the cathode target - so that once its momentum carries it
in far enough, then the field-drag on the proton from the valence orbitals
"pulls" the proton away from the neutron, after which the neutron's momentum
carries it on into the target nucleus - this visualization is wrong - but what
is the corrected version?

Does the crossed magnetic field itself start the whole deuterium atom spinning
so that at a certain resonance level the proton spin gets out of synchronization
with that of the neutron? It could not be centrifugal, could it - so is it
resonance? The scientific field of High Energy Spin Physics is evolving fast,
and it is difficult to make sense of many of the new papers, some of which I got
hold of recently. I hope that someone with more experience or insight in regard
to the implications of spin at lower plasma energies can verbalize an accurate
visualization of Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping.

Regards,

Jones





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 13:25:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30372;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:23:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:23:51 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:18:44 -0800
Message-ID: <002a01c1b4d4$05027c80$6501a8c0 xpkitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <B88FCE96.141A%editor infinite-energy.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"sjbrh1.0.TQ7.dbjQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46123
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ok, lets get the Eienstein Observer chart out


Observation Time A.
Observer-Earth <-Detection method.Speed of Light->Object under
Observation(Velocity+Position+Vector)=A1

Calculated position-velocity-vector next observation B1

Observation Time B
Actual Observation = B1(Velocity+Postition+Vector)-(FactorX= approx 6 mph
per century)

Apply Logic to solution :

1. Probes heading in different directions are running into material slowing
them down.( comet dust, Dark Matter )
2. Probes are emitting force/matter slowing them down Fuel, heat, static
force acting on environment ( disproven )
3. Nature of Space/Light/Time itself different at that distance from sun.

	a. Structure of space flatter, ie Light is Faster, object appears to be
slower.
	b. Gravity from sun is higher out there, slowing craft down

My guess would be 3a. for an answer. Question is, if the Speed of light is
Faster at those distances, could the "objects in mirror are further than
they appear ?"

In other words, the distant galaxies, quasars and other objects are either
farther than they appear to us, or they are closer and Younger than we
suspected.

What fun....

Matt Rogers






-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene F. Mallove [mailto:editor infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 8:05 AM
To: vortex l eskimo.com
Subject: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft






Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space
By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 10/02/2002)


            A SPACE probe launched 30 years ago has come under the
influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the
laws of physics.

            Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up
pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being
pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect shows no sign of
getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and
scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a
new force of nature.


                  Click to enlarge
            Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the
craft, said: "We have examined every mechanism and theory we can think
of and so far nothing works.

            "If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on
cosmology and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace
Corporation of California.

            Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with
Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
distant planet in our solar system.

            Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars
that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are
continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven
billion miles from Earth.

            Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a
leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is
being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect
about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.

            Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny
rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear
power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The
team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all
the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar
radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.

            The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility
that the two probes are being affected by the gravitational pull of
unknown planets beyond the solar system.

            Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a
quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery
that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two other
space probes still in the solar system. Data from these two probes
suggests the force is of the same strength as that found for the
Pioneers.

            Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University,
says even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale.
"It might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions
of years, which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also
raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of gravity."

            Until 1988, Pioneer 10 was the most remote object made by
man - a distinction now held by Voyager 1. Should Pioneer 10 make
contact with alien life, it carries a gold-plated aluminium plaque on
which the figures of a man and woman are shown to scale, along with a
map showing its origin that Nasa calls "the cosmic equivalent of a
message in a bottle".






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 23:02:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30132;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:57:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:57:23 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530500b8910d3296be [12.21.211.149]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:00:25 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"ATqxv1.0.gM7.I_rQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46124
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION

The most fundamental prinicple to be discussed here should have a name, so
I'll call it the magnetic orbital model of the deuteron.  Stripping then
becomes a matter of ionizing the magnetic orbital.

The 74th Edition of the CRC Handbook of Physics gives the following
magnetic moments for the electron, proton, neutron and deuteron:

   mu_e    928.47701     x 10^26 J/T
   mu_p      1.41060761  x 10^26 J/T
   mu_n      0.96623707  x 10^26 J/T
   mu_D      0.43307375  x 10^26 J/T


The neutron magnetic dipole is directed opposite to that of the proton, and
corresponds to that of a negative spinning charge distribution.  Note that:

  mu_x = mu_p - mu_n  = .4437054  x 10^26 J/T  ~= mu_D

  mu_y = mu_x - mu_D = 0.00999679 x 10^26 J/T


I take this to mean the that the spins of n and p in the deuteron are
generally co-aligned, thus their magnetic fields are aligned in opposed
directions, and thus subtract.  Since mu_D is larger that mu_x, I assume
the 2.608 percent difference between mu_x and mu_D is partly due to a
twisting oscillation of the axes of the p and n in the D, and partly due to
orbiting of one particle about the other.  In order to gain a magnetic bond
from this alignment, the p and n must be typically aligned as in Fig. 1:

      top

     N
     N    S
     |    |     Both spin clockwise as viewed from top
     S    N     i.e. from north pole of deuteron
     S

     p    n     Possibly, p orbits n and vice versa.
                If so, the orbits are clockwise from the top

    Fig. 1 -  Model of Deuteron


otherwise a repulsion of the D and p will result, or, more likely, the p
and n will flip so that their magnetic moments reinforce instead of
subtract.  Note that the proton will be designated with two N's and S's to
represent its larger magnetic moment.  If the p and n can be displaced in
the axis of spin, say by hitting a target, yet maintain their spins, then
their magnetic poles repel, not bind, as shown in Fig. 2:

     S
     |  n
     N

     N
     N
     |  p
     S
     S

   Fig 2 - Pole repulsion when spins aligned, but spin axes co-linear,
           and n and p are significantly displaced from each other on axis


Obtaining the displacement shown in Fig.2 requires nearly the full energy
of braking the magnetic bond, because not only does the displacement have
to occur, but also the resistance to the torque that keeps the poles in a
repelling position, which is impossible.  So what happens upon the D
braking at the target?  The magnets automatically torque into a low energy
position, the position in which like poles attract.  Upon vertical
displacement, the poles will rotate into an attracting position, as shown
in Fig. 3, thus maintaining the bond.  The full centrifugal force vector
never fully reinforces the braking force vector, which is vertical.

      top

     N              N              N
     N              N              N
     |     S        |              |             ^
     S    /         S              S             | Ambient B
     S   N          S  N-S         S

                                     N
                                      \
                                       S

     p    n         p    n         p n

    Fig. 3 -  Model of Deuteron under increasing levels of
              vertical stress, proton decelerating


In Fig. 1, it can be seen that, in order for the orbiting of the p about
the n to add to mu_d, the orbiting must be clockwise as viewed from the
north pole of the deuteron, i.e in the same direction as the spins of p and
n.  It might be assumed that the orbiting creates a kind of micro-atom, and
that an amount of energy up to the full kinetic energy of the particles
coming together might be retained by this micro-atom without any radiation.
The small deBroglie wavelengths of the particles should permit this.  So,
what kind of orbital velocity is involved to store up about 1 MeV?  We have

   E = m_p / 2 v^2

   v = ((1 MeV)/(2 m_p))^(1/2) = 4.893x10^6 m/s

pretty much below relativistic speeds.  Now, the assuming the full nuclear
magnetic moment difference of 0.00999679 x 10^26 J/T is accounted for by
the orbital "current",  using 1 amp = 6.214x10^18 (proton orbits)/sec, and
1 J/T = 1 amp/m^2  we can express

   mu_y = (6.212x10^42 orbits/sec)/m^2.

Using an orbital radius r, and orbital time t, we have

   v = 2 pi r/t

   t = 2 pi r/v

and an orbited area

   A_o = pi r^2

so we have

   mu_y = 6.212x10^42 orbits/sec/m^2 = (1/t)/A_o

   6.212x10^42 orbits/sec/m^2 = (v/(2 pi r))/(pi r^2)

   (2 pi r)(pi r^2)*(6.212x10^42 orbits/sec/m^2) = v

   2 pi^2 r^3 = v/(6.212x10^42 orbits/sec/m^2)

   r^3 = v/(6.212x10^42 orbits/sec/m^2)

   r^3 = (4.893x10^6 m/s)/(6.212x10^42 orbits/sec/m^2)/(2 pi^2)

   r^3 = 3.99x10^-38 m^3

   r = 3.42 x 10^-13 m

which is very roughly in the ballpark, and close to the needed 2.2 MeV to
break the bond.  More has to be done to check this number for consistency,
reconciling the magnetic force with the acceleration, and I hope to get
that done soon.

Now, in the second case, where there exists an ambient field that is normal
to the direction of motion, then the deuteron aligns as shown in Fig. 4.


   p      NN-SS               N<-- Ambient field B
                       |
   n       S-N         | to target
                       v


    Fig. 4 - Alignment of deuteron with field B normal to velocity


In this case, the orbital velocity and centrifugal force generated by the
n-p pair becomes very significant, because it directly reduces the momentum
that must be imparted to the proton by the collision in order to brake the
bond.  Unlike the case where the deuteron is oriented with the velocity,
and the orbital velocity is not so significant, here it directly adds in
the same direction.  The energy to brake the bond is countered by energy
stored in the n-p pair at formation.


ELECTRON MAGNETIC CATALYSIS

In addition to the importance of deuteron alignment to magnetic orbital
ionization by braking, electron magnetic catalysis also plays an important
role in targets.  The magnetic moment of the electron is over 1000 times
that of the deuteron.  As target electrons pummel the nucleus, they spin to
align with the proton's magnetic field, and to some small extent vice
versa, but regardless their orientation, they act oppositely on the neutron
and proton magnetically.  This mutually twists the pair and reduces the
ionization energy of the magnetic bond.  This electron magnetic catalysis
effect happens regardless of the orientation of the ambient magnetic field,
but may lower the ionization threshold enough in dense targets for the
magnetic orbital to be ionized by proton braking.

Though the fusor did not involve a metal target, all the deuterons in the
target volume were not ionized.  It may well be that collisions involving
at least one non-ionized deuteron produced the majority of stripping
reactions, and thus that electron magnetic catalysis played at least some
role. In any case, the fact that the fusor had no strong ambient magnetic
fields, and because nucleus velocities were in random directions, at least
some of the collisions did not involve deuterons axially aligned with their
velocities, and that may be one principle basis for its success.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 13 23:44:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11664;
	Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:41:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:41:34 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b89114ee67f1 [12.21.209.64]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:44:40 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft
Resent-Message-ID: <"lVjbm.0.As2.kesQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46125
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:04 AM 2/13/2, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
>            Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with
>Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
>Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
>distant planet in our solar system.
>
>            Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars
>that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are
>continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven
>billion miles from Earth.
>
>            Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a
>leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is
>being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect
>about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.
>
[snip]


I suggest that the probes are not slowing down, but rather that space
itself is shrinking.   Since both probes are moving at about the same
velocity, the shrinking rate would not show up clearly as such.  Perhaps we
are being drawn into a black hole at the center of the Milky Way, and the
mass flow is compressing space itself in our local portion of the Milky
Way.  If space is compressing at an ever increasing rate, then any bodies
in any direction (in this locality) not otherwise accelerating, would
appear to have an accelerating component of motion toward us, and toward
each other.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 00:45:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA01160;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:42:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:42:16 -0800
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:39:55 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Methane Hydrate
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <200202140340_MC3-F1D2-7116 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA01136
Resent-Message-ID: <"B7fPU1.0.1I.dXtQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46126
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Matthew Rogers said:


>> In the 60's and 70's huge Clathrate deposits were released offshore in
California naturally, and caused some of the largest non-volcanic
explosions
ever recorded.
Windows shattered in homes 100 miles away were common.

It would be safer to mine nitroglycerine...... <<

I think you may have hit the nail on the head - (perhaps I should re-phrase
that!!)  The reports I read only mentioned the "simple" decomposition
problem.  Perhaps the NASA researchers involved were "eliminated" before
completing their work ;-^)

Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 08:05:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08559;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:02:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:02:14 -0800
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:55:05 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <000b01c1b56f$f93238e0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b8910d3296be [12.21.211.149]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"j8yBj.0.e52.6-zQy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46127
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

Horace, this is very interesting and will take some study. You seem to have gone
right to the crux of the stripping phenomenon.

Here are a couple of preliminary comments based on some other papers that I am
reading and on past work:

> Since mu_D is larger that mu_x, I assume
> the 2.608 percent difference between mu_x and mu_D is partly due to a
> twisting oscillation of the axes of the p and n in the D, and partly due to
> orbiting of one particle about the other.

Or it may relate to the the magnetic moment of the gluon...I haven't been able
to get a generally accepted value on the gluon but it appears to be in that
range.


>     Fig. 4 - Alignment of deuteron with field B normal to velocity

> In this case, the orbital velocity and centrifugal force generated by the
> n-p pair becomes very significant, because it directly reduces the momentum
> that must be imparted to the proton by the collision in order to brake the
> bond.

This is very interesting but is there any real evidence that a distorted or
oblate nucleus can "feel" centrifugal force, or are you going on general
principles?


> ELECTRON MAGNETIC CATALYSIS

>.... Though the fusor did not involve a metal target, all the deuterons in the
> target volume were not ionized.


YES!!!! I think that you have hit on a very important point

> It may well be that collisions involving
> at least one non-ionized deuteron produced the majority of stripping
> reactions,

YES!!!  I believer this is true but perhaps for a slightly different reason.

First, if you try to generalize all of the situations in which stripping occurs,
from cold fusion to warm plasmas, it is clear that in all of these are
situations, you might well expect to find lone D atoms - not ions, not
molecules. The fact that these atoms are so difficult to maintain naturally as
singles and the very task of doing that in a variable thermal situation may be
one of the reasons that CF is not easy to demonstrate.

Second, when you look at the bare D atom - not ion, not molecule - then you find
that the nucleus is contained in what is, in effect its very own uniform and
polarizable 12.5 Tesla magentic field, which is of course the field from its
electron. This does not happen in any other circumstance in nature, i.e. that an
atom comes enclosed in its own potential NMR reactor. More than a single
electron spoils the effect as it removes this close proximity potential
polarization! To get it right though, you have to very careful as will be
expalined.

In 1993, Dennis Letts co-authored a paper with John Bockris on how the three NMR
frequencies possibilities of Deuterium might be exploited to trigger the "cold
fusion heat effect" in deuterated Palladium. The 3 frequencies are for the
neutron, proton and the nucleus as a whole when sitting in the magnetic field
created by the orbital electron (365 mhz, 533mhz, 82 mhz when sitting in a 12.5
Tesla field from the electron). Sorry, I believe the paper was unpublished, I
got the info directly from Dennis Letts.

Without this bit of insight, and using the D ion, in contrast to the atom, the
"spin flip" frequencies would have to be keyed to the strength of the external
field which would be variable throughout any significant volume. But that
magnetic field is absolutely constant within the lone D atom, and this is a huge
advantage - because achieving  resonance is a very demanding task under any
circumstances and in a variable field it and with thermal doppler braodening it
would be most difficult.

I have a feeling that Dennis Letts has been working on this, and the fact that
he hasn't published anything may be indicative of any number ot things, so it
would be unwise to speculate. Perhaps I will try to contact him.

The ideal situation for D stripping might involve this situation: D atoms are
most easily maintained in a cold matrix like Pd. The problem is that Pd has a
high cross section for thermal neutrons and immediately heats up when they are
produced. What you need is a low cross-section matrix like carbon. Carbon
nanotubes would be ideal if they could be engineered to load only the atom, not
the molecule. Next you would have to polarize the whole thing, matrix and all,
at the exact 12.5 Tesla field of the nanoscale reactants. You can't do this in
your garage right now, but sooner or later, Mark Goldes is going to provide us
with that elusive room temp. superconductor  ;-}

Then it would be easy to add, say the 533 Mhz frequency for stripping and the
stripped neutrons that come off in droves would exit the reactor without
interfering with the heat control. Matter of fact, you could keep this baby
cooold, maybe cryogenically cold.

Your energy conversion would have to take place from the themal neutrons - and
this could be external to the reactor!! I'm going to expand on this idea in
another post when I get it all together, that is, if you don't find anything
seriously amiss with the premise or if you can think of other routes, let me
know.

> and thus that electron magnetic catalysis played at least some
> role. In any case, the fact that the fusor had no strong ambient magnetic
> fields, and because nucleus velocities were in random directions, at least
> some of the collisions did not involve deuterons axially aligned with their
> velocities, and that may be one principle basis for its success.

Perhaps the role of electron catalysis is in somehow helping to maintain the D
in atomic form, although it would seem that in a warm plasma, in contrast to a
metal matrix, the negative D ion would arise naturally from too many electrons
and spoil the effect.

More later,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 08:19:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18384;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:18:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:18:35 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b8918dd13bf3 [12.21.209.64]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:21:39 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft
Resent-Message-ID: <"C9MIh2.0.1V4.QD-Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46128
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:04 AM 2/13/2, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
>            Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with
>Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
>Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
>distant planet in our solar system.
>
>            Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars
>that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are
>continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven
>billion miles from Earth.
>
>            Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a
>leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is
>being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect
>about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.
>
[snip]


I suggest that the probes are not slowing down, but rather that space
itself is shrinking.  Since both probes are moving at about the same
velocity, the shrinking rate may not show up clearly as such.  Perhaps we
are being drawn into a black hole at the center of the Milky Way, and the
mass flow is compressing space itself in our local portion of the Milky
Way.  If space is compressing at an ever increasing rate, then any bodies
in any direction (in this locality) not otherwise accelerating, would
appear to have an accelerating component of motion toward us, and toward
each other.  If space is compressing at a constant rate, then any two
points would appear to have a constant velocity component toward each
other.  The amount any two probes would be brought together by space
contraction would depend both on how long they were apart and how much
space is between them.

If space were gobbled by all mass at an accelerating rate, then that fact
would be hidden in the gravitational constant.  If space were gobbled only
by black holes, or the center of the universe, then we night see a
distinguishable phenomenon, as with the probes.  It is possible that space
is gobbled by all black holes.  In that case a large amount of gobbling
should occur in the center of the universe, but also in the center of
galaxies.   It is also possible that the greatest amount of space gobbling
occurs at the fringes of the universe, in galaxies of black holes.

This gobbling of space by black holes might account for the foam like
structure of space, the vast empty spaces between galaxy clusters.  Space
would have had more volume initially, but then it got gobbled back by some
regions of close or large black holes, and the more a region is gobbled,
the smaller it gets.  The larger empty spaces would appear more large and
more empty in proportion to the gobbled volumes.

Gobblers or gobblins?


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 09:18:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19108;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:16:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:16:24 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8919503ecc1 [12.21.208.47]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:19:31 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"9Vqfc.0.Ug4.e3_Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46129
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 7:55 AM 2/14/2, Jones Beene wrote:
>From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
>
>Horace, this is very interesting and will take some study. You seem to
>have gone
>right to the crux of the stripping phenomenon.
>
>Here are a couple of preliminary comments based on some other papers that I am
>reading and on past work:
>
>> Since mu_D is larger that mu_x, I assume
>> the 2.608 percent difference between mu_x and mu_D is partly due to a
>> twisting oscillation of the axes of the p and n in the D, and partly due to
>> orbiting of one particle about the other.
>
>Or it may relate to the the magnetic moment of the gluon...I haven't been able
>to get a generally accepted value on the gluon but it appears to be in that
>range.

There is not any evidence that the deuteron is bound by the strong force,
thus there is no need for any gluons.


>
>
>>     Fig. 4 - Alignment of deuteron with field B normal to velocity
>
>> In this case, the orbital velocity and centrifugal force generated by the
>> n-p pair becomes very significant, because it directly reduces the momentum
>> that must be imparted to the proton by the collision in order to brake the
>> bond.
>
>This is very interesting but is there any real evidence that a distorted or
>oblate nucleus can "feel" centrifugal force, or are you going on general
>principles?


Protons and neutrons have mass, therefore inirtia.  The centrifugal force
IS inertia.



[snip]
>Second, when you look at the bare D atom - not ion, not molecule - then
>you find
>that the nucleus is contained in what is, in effect its very own uniform and
>polarizable 12.5 Tesla magentic field, which is of course the field from its
>electron. This does not happen in any other circumstance in nature, i.e.
>that an
>atom comes enclosed in its own potential NMR reactor. More than a single
>electron spoils the effect as it removes this close proximity potential
>polarization! To get it right though, you have to very careful as will be
>expalined.
>
>In 1993, Dennis Letts co-authored a paper with John Bockris on how the
>three NMR
>frequencies possibilities of Deuterium might be exploited to trigger the "cold
>fusion heat effect" in deuterated Palladium. The 3 frequencies are for the
>neutron, proton and the nucleus as a whole when sitting in the magnetic field
>created by the orbital electron (365 mhz, 533mhz, 82 mhz when sitting in a 12.5
>Tesla field from the electron). Sorry, I believe the paper was unpublished, I
>got the info directly from Dennis Letts.
[snip]


This is where things get interesting.  I think there may be another
resonance based upon the magnetic orbital.  A magnetic orbital is a very
strange thing, because the dipole force is 1/r^4, and also sensitive to the
angle the dipoles make with respect to each other, their orientations.  It
is definitely unstable and there is absolutely no reason think it could
ever be spherical.

It is the mutual orientation of the dipoles that is affected by traditional
NMR.  I think the energy put into getting the particles apart by NMR may be
near the full bond energy on average.

I don't know that the magnetic orbital, if such exists at all, would be
subject to resonance, because it would be so wildly radical and unstable.
Looking at its characteristic frequency for a 1 MeV energy storage:

   t = 2 pi r/v

   v = ((1 MeV)/(2 m_p))^(1/2) = 4.893x10^6 m/s

   r = 3.42 x 10^-13 m

   t = 4.392 x 10^-19 sec

   nu = 1/t = 2.277x10^18 Hz

   lambda = t c = 1.3167x10^-10 m

which gives a pumping photon energy of

   E = h nu = (6.626x10^-34 kg m^2/s) (2.277x10^18 s^-1)

     = 1.509x10^-15 J = 9416.9 eV

so it appears photons in the 10 - 20 keV range possibly could pump up the
magnetic orbital.  If it worked, it would not be a precise thing like with
lasers, I think.  More of a heat kind of thing, though cycling through
x-ray frequencies from 10 - 20 keV in a saw tooth fashion might be
indicated. This would mean putting a 10 keV pp AC signal on top of a 10 keV
DC signal and feeding it to an x-ray machine.

The efficacy of the fusor may also lie in its production of x-rays in the
10 - 20 keV range.

It is of interest that neither x-ray pumping of the magnetic orbital, nor
nuclear magnetic resonance, provides "free energy" in breaking the magnetic
bond.  The energy that is free for that use is the energy already stored
there.  Breaking even, of course, means getting a lot out of the neutrons
without causing pollution.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 10:05:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA11982;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:02:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:02:43 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b891a87c7ff4 [12.21.208.47]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:05:49 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"HEy_n2.0.5x2.2l_Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46130
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 7:55 AM 2/14/2, Jones Beene wrote:

>Second, when you look at the bare D atom - not ion, not molecule - then
>you find
>that the nucleus is contained in what is, in effect its very own uniform and
>polarizable 12.5 Tesla magentic field, which is of course the field from its
>electron. This does not happen in any other circumstance in nature, i.e.
>that an
>atom comes enclosed in its own potential NMR reactor.


It is important to realize that neither NMR nor x-ray pumping supply "free
energy" for ionizing the magnetic orbital.  These appear to be energy
conservative from a practical point of view with regards to stripping the
neutron.  However, the leverage gained by electron magnetic catalysis is
not conservative in a practical sense.  While it is true that some "free"
leverage IS provided by the orbital elecron in a hydrogen atom, and also
that this 12.5 T filed can be used for NMR purposes, it is of key
imporatance to realize that high velocity electrons shrink.  Therefore the
fixed magnetic moment electrons produce large field intensites when at high
velocity, and it is high field intensity that provides the "free" leverage
in ionizing the magnetic orbital by changing the mutual orientation of the
proton and neutron.  High velocity electrons provide the greatest free
energy.  Electron magnetic catalysis is greatly enhanced by the use of high
speed electrons.  The nucleus itself helps provide that high speed, once
the electrons are small enough to be accelerated when in sub-angstrom
distances.

While it is true that the 12.5 T field helps catalysis, it is the mere
presence of the electron in the vicinity, its candidacy for acceleration,
that may be most key to the fusor.  However, if you successfully applied
NMR, then that would not be the case.  The pure constance of the 12.5 T
field would then be key, and the population of single atoms would be
extremely key.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 10:09:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14289;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:07:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:07:32 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:07:24 -0800
Message-ID: <000801c1b582$74c4e040$0201a8c0 xpkitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b8918dd13bf3 [12.21.209.64]>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"7QTt3.0.BV3.ap_Qy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46131
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Man I thought I was at the Turkey Egg Laying Shed when I read that...


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:22 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Anomalous force tugging spacecraft

At 8:04 AM 2/13/2, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
>            Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with
>Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of
>Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most
>distant planet in our solar system.
>
>            Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars
>that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are
>continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven
>billion miles from Earth.
>
>            Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a
>leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is
>being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect
>about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.
>
[snip]


I suggest that the probes are not slowing down, but rather that space
itself is shrinking.  Since both probes are moving at about the same
velocity, the shrinking rate may not show up clearly as such.  Perhaps we
are being drawn into a black hole at the center of the Milky Way, and the
mass flow is compressing space itself in our local portion of the Milky
Way.  If space is compressing at an ever increasing rate, then any bodies
in any direction (in this locality) not otherwise accelerating, would
appear to have an accelerating component of motion toward us, and toward
each other.  If space is compressing at a constant rate, then any two
points would appear to have a constant velocity component toward each
other.  The amount any two probes would be brought together by space
contraction would depend both on how long they were apart and how much
space is between them.

If space were gobbled by all mass at an accelerating rate, then that fact
would be hidden in the gravitational constant.  If space were gobbled only
by black holes, or the center of the universe, then we night see a
distinguishable phenomenon, as with the probes.  It is possible that space
is gobbled by all black holes.  In that case a large amount of gobbling
should occur in the center of the universe, but also in the center of
galaxies.   It is also possible that the greatest amount of space gobbling
occurs at the fringes of the universe, in galaxies of black holes.

This gobbling of space by black holes might account for the foam like
structure of space, the vast empty spaces between galaxy clusters.  Space
would have had more volume initially, but then it got gobbled back by some
regions of close or large black holes, and the more a region is gobbled,
the smaller it gets.  The larger empty spaces would appear more large and
more empty in proportion to the gobbled volumes.

Gobblers or gobblins?


Regards,

Horace Heffner         

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 12:02:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06870;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:55:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:55:48 -0800
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:48:23 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <004c01c1b590$9025d0c0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530501b8919503ecc1 [12.21.208.47]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"-9oFo2.0.ug1.3P1Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46132
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> It is the mutual orientation of the dipoles that is affected by traditional
> NMR.  I think the energy put into getting the particles apart by NMR may be
> near the full bond energy on average.

Here is where we disagree strongly, but only an experimental device will suffice
to determine whether or not NMR resonance will have enough of a spin flipping
effect to cause separation.

Actually, your conclusion could not be correct * IF* thermal neutrons are all
that is produced, but it might have relevance to situations where ~2.5 MeV
neutrons are prevalent.

BTW, in further searching of old files I found this from Dennis Letts:

"I demonstrated the [MHD resonance] effect in 1993 in the laboratories of ENECO
in Salt Lake City, in the presence of two PhD's: Dr. John Bockris and Dr. Gale
Thorne. Bockris then invited me to write a paper with him, which he presented in
Maui, Hawaii in December 1993. The paper was peer reviewed and published in
FUSION TECHNOLOGY in early 1994 : "Triggering of Heat and Sub-surface
changes in Pd-D Systems." (Bockris,Sundaresan,Letts,Minevski)"

[Side Note: Why does everything seem to work in Salt Lake City?]

DL: "I was able to demonstrate a clear connection between the presence of a few
milliwatts of RF and increases of several watts in the thermal output of
Deuterated Palladium systems."

Milliwatts to watts. I like the sound of that !!!

But as I indicated before, I think Letts' particular technique of MHD resonance
is self-quenching in a Pd matrix for this reason. It is strongly dependent on
matching the exact RF fequency to the field. When a match occurs, thermal
neutrons are emitted and immediately interact with the Pd. This creates a
thermal gradient and Doppler shifting of the resonance frequency, and the
reaction is self-quenched.

Also in regard to your quadrupole proposal, in that one, you have to rely on
lower energy photons due to the low field.  With a higher field, especially when
the nano field is reinforced by an imposed external field of equal value, you
use the higher frequency RF and consequently each "tickler" photon will be much
more energetic. In your scenario with a slight .1 T applied external field each
photon will have about a hundred times less energy to impart to spin than in the
high field 12.5 T situation.

I'm working up a proposed stripping reactor scheme that I will call ICF - or Ice
Cold Fission. Pretty Bizzaro...

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 13:03:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11092;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:00:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:00:41 -0800
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:53:30 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Infinite Energy Update?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <008e01c1b599$a8f162a0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"EXo5G1.0.Ej2.vL2Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46133
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If Dr. Mallove or anyone from IE is tuned in, perhaps they would be so kind as
to update us on this story,

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/DEVICEUPD/24issdevupd02.html

Dennis Cravens-Dennis Letts Cell

"The assortment of devices under test here at NERL is increasing. We recently
purchased a Pons/Fleischmann-type heavy-water, closed cell from Dennis Cravens
that he and Dennis Letts have worked on together to investigate the
high-frequency RF (82 MHz) electromagnetic stimulation of a Pd cathode.

Dennis Letts reports recent success in boosting the DC excess energy of such a
cell with 82 MHz RF of insignificant power. We are in the calibration and
cathode loading stages of this investigation."

Thanks in advance,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 14:06:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11181;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:03:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:03:47 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214161253.0324be98 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:02:30 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020213122326.29732A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020213133238.00b05818 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"BAv2u2.0.Vk2.1H3Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46134
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>There is no mention of any responsibility on the part of the government of 
>California, as if it is expected that elected representatives would and
>should take the request of special interest groups that given them bags of 
>money and not question those request and cast them into law, unchanged.

I read a lot about the history of California energy deregulation. As far as 
I know, California politicians and regulators are not accused of accepting 
money from Enron or other companies. They did accept advice, which turned 
out to be very bad advice. Whenever government sets out to regulate, 
deregulate, tax, or encourage an industry, it must listen to experts from 
the industry. Responsible industry leaders will give government sound 
advice, because that is the ethical thing to do, and because otherwise a 
crisis may develop down the road. As far as I can tell, the California 
deregulation scheme was honest but inept. The plan was developed quickly by 
one person, and approved without much deliberation.


>The people with the authority get the responsibility. Enron doesn't have
>and never did have the authority. The California government did. The
>excuse that they took Enron's money and gave them what they wanted, so 
>Enron is to blame, is bogus.

1. They did not take Enron's money, as far as I know. The U.S. Congress and 
George Bush did.

2. Everyone agrees the California government is responsible for this mess. 
The government is moving to correct its mistakes. Perhaps it should have 
moved more rapidly, but it says that during the crisis peak it did not have 
authority to fix immediate problems. For months, CA was pleading for 
federal intervention (emergency price caps), but the federal government 
held back. As soon as the Feds agreed, and price caps went into effect, the 
immediate crisis ended. Long-term problems remain. They are being addressed 
with a more careful deregulation scheme.

3. Nearly everyone agrees that some of Enron's ideas are sound. Enron 
exerted political influence with a mixture of good and bad results. When a 
TVA official refused to go along with Enron policies, Enron had senators 
and congressmen put pressure on the official. Enron hand-picked the 
Chairman of FERC, Pat Wood, a Texas Republican politician. FERC is the 
federal agency that refused to impose price caps under the previous 
Republican chairman. It is now investigating the California crisis to 
determine whether Enron was culpable or not. You might assume Wood is a 
patsy, but it turns out he was the one who imposed price caps. The two 
Democrats on FERC think the world of him. One said he is, "the most 
public-spirited officials that I have dealt with in my 22 years in 
Washington." So the situation is complicated, and some of the people Enron 
planted in government are good.


>It was their job to work for the people, not corporations that bribed them.

A responsible government will respond to the needs of corporations as well 
as individuals. It would be crazy to set goals for the electric power 
industry without detailed input and cooperation from that industry. Most 
power companies are run by ethical, hard-working, patriotic professionals. 
Naturally, they put their own interests first and they will try to 
influence the rules to generate the most profit, but they are not 
self-destructive fools. They do not often recommend a scheme that will 
bankrupt their customer (PG&E), cause chaos, and infuriate the ratepayers.


>Further, generation in California is more expensive due to the
>enviromental constraints. It is only natural that power in California cost
>more given the (government created) market conditions.

The government did not create the high population density, the climate 
around Los Angeles, or the enlightened demand by the citizens for clean 
power and environmental constraints. These constraints do raise the price 
slightly but not enough to explain the price difference between California 
and other densely populated areas. The regulatory structure has been a 
major contributing factor. Deregulation was supposed to fix it. It probably 
will fix it, after revisions and corrections.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 15:25:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20210;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:20:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:20:23 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:20:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214161253.0324be98 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020214150013.27451A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"dg7q01.0.ix4.sO4Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46135
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I read a lot about the history of California energy deregulation. As far as 
> I know, California politicians and regulators are not accused of accepting 
> money from Enron or other companies. 

[snip]

> 1. They did not take Enron's money, as far as I know. The U.S. Congress and 
> George Bush did.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/28/ED95209.DTL


                 "The company gave generously to lawmakers in the
                 California Legislature"

 
> 2. Everyone agrees the California government is responsible for this mess. 
> The government is moving to correct its mistakes. Perhaps it should have 
> moved more rapidly, but it says that during the crisis peak it did not have 
> authority to fix immediate problems. For months, CA was pleading for 
> federal intervention (emergency price caps), but the federal government 
> held back. As soon as the Feds agreed, and price caps went into effect, the 
> immediate crisis ended. Long-term problems remain. They are being addressed 
> with a more careful deregulation scheme.

California should and could have removed the price caps that were driving
SCE and PG&E into bankruptcy as soon as the price of gas forced the cost
of production higher than the revenue from selling electricity.

They did not!

They were quite happy to leach off the SCE's & PG&E's shareholder equity
and benefit from them subsidizing the cost of their power. It wasn't until
the rolling blackouts came, and the end of the free ride, that they
complained. Even then, their suggestion was to create MORE price caps
rather than let go of the free ride they already had.

The fed DID aid them, under both the Clinton and Bush administrations, by
forcing out of state producers in Washington, Oregon and Idaho to sell
power at a loss to CAlifornia. This cost was born by the power users in
the Pacific Northwest. 


> 3. Nearly everyone agrees that some of Enron's ideas are sound. Enron 
> exerted political influence with a mixture of good and bad results. When a 
> TVA official refused to go along with Enron policies, Enron had senators 
> and congressmen put pressure on the official. Enron hand-picked the 
> Chairman of FERC, Pat Wood, a Texas Republican politician. FERC is the 
> federal agency that refused to impose price caps under the previous 
> Republican chairman.


Price caps were not the answer. The high prices were due to California's
power distribution company having bad credit ratings. When California
assumed the credit risk, the prices fell and the price caps were only used
once, I believe. Price caps were not the solution to the problem. 

> It is now investigating the California crisis to 
> determine whether Enron was culpable or not. 

More likely, they are trying to find a way to blame Enron for their own
stupidity rather than going to the California voter and telling them they
really can't vote themselves a free lunch.

For all the stories about how Enron did this and that, the fact is that
they are now bankrupt and the FBI and SEC are on their case and
threatening to bring criminal charges against them. It doesn't seem their
selections for FERC did them any good. 

> self-destructive fools. They do not often recommend a scheme that will 
> bankrupt their customer (PG&E), cause chaos, and infuriate the ratepayers.
 
The buck stops at the California government. Period. 

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 15:54:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05148;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:51:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:51:47 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214183252.03660eb0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:52:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020214150013.27451A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214161253.0324be98 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"3gHDR2.0.MG1.Js4Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46136
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > 1. They did not take Enron's money, as far as I know. The U.S. Congress 
> and
> > George Bush did.
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/28/ED95209.DTL
>
>
>                  "The company gave generously to lawmakers in the
>                  California Legislature"

I stand corrected! The only part I heard about was the $750 they gave to 
Northern CA representatives. As the article says, "HERE'S ANOTHER reason 
for Bay Area folks to hate the Enron executives; they didn't even give 
money to our politicians. . . ."


>California should and could have removed the price caps that were driving 
>SCE and PG&E into bankruptcy as soon as the price of gas forced the cost 
>of production higher than the revenue from selling electricity.

I think everyone agrees, in retrospect.


> > Chairman of FERC, Pat Wood, a Texas Republican politician. FERC is the
> > federal agency that refused to impose price caps under the previous
> > Republican chairman.
>
>
>Price caps were not the answer.

I think everyone agree they are not the long-term answer, but they put a 
quick end to the emergency situation. They also set in motion 
Enron's  downfall, much to the surprise of everyone but the Enron insiders.


>  The high prices were due to California's
>power distribution company having bad credit ratings.

According to the accounts I have read, the crisis caused the bad credit 
ratings, not the other way around.


> > It is now investigating the California crisis to
> > determine whether Enron was culpable or not.
>
>More likely, they are trying to find a way to blame Enron for their own
>stupidity rather than going to the California voter and telling them they
>really can't vote themselves a free lunch.

FERC is a Federal agency controlled by the Republicans. It would not mind 
blaming a Democratic state governor for the crisis. It probably will. No 
doubt he does share the blame.


>For all the stories about how Enron did this and that, the fact is that
>they are now bankrupt and the FBI and SEC are on their case and
>threatening to bring criminal charges against them. It doesn't seem their
>selections for FERC did them any good.

In such an extreme situation influence cannot help. There are limits to 
what a government official can do for a friend. In a less dire 
situations,  and positive opportunities, in the years leading up to the 
crisis the government helped Enron immensely. The vice president wrote the 
national energy policy to fit Enron's goals. That in itself is not 
reprehensible, by any means. It was a pretty good policy in many ways, and 
the government ought to write industrial policies to fit the needs of 
innovative new companies. I wish the government would follow Enron's advice 
regarding the Kyoto agreement.

This is a nuanced story. Innovative, important, profitable corporations 
have a right to influence the government. Microsoft, Dell and IBM should 
have major influence when the government writes laws regarding computer 
hardware and software.


> > self-destructive fools. They do not often recommend a scheme that will
> > bankrupt their customer (PG&E), cause chaos, and infuriate the ratepayers.
>
>The buck stops at the California government. Period.

Surely the management of Enron, PG&E, the Federal government and others 
share the blame for the power crisis! It is not ALL the fault of one 
institution, when so many other powerful, influential institutions signed 
off on the plan. For that matter, the voters and rate payers of CA also 
share the blame.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 16:47:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30572;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:42:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:42:43 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:42:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214183252.03660eb0 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020214161621.1739B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"yGJGm3.0.WT7.2c5Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46137
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> > > Chairman of FERC, Pat Wood, a Texas Republican politician. FERC is the
> > > federal agency that refused to impose price caps under the previous
> > > Republican chairman.
> >
> >
> >Price caps were not the answer.
> 
> I think everyone agree they are not the long-term answer, but they put a 
> quick end to the emergency situation. They also set in motion 
> Enron's  downfall, much to the surprise of everyone but the Enron insiders.
> 
> 
> >  The high prices were due to California's
> >power distribution company having bad credit ratings.
> 
> According to the accounts I have read, the crisis caused the bad credit 
> ratings, not the other way around.

?!? 

I've given my reasoning for the cause and effect. 


1) Price caps cause PG&E and SCE to sell power at a loss. 

2) Losses cause credit record of PG&E to be downgraded.

3) Prices PG&E and SCE pay for energy were risk adjusted upwards by the
companies they buy energy from, with many companies refusing to sell power
to them at all, taking their generators off line under a variety of
excuses.

4) Rolling blackouts in California. This is defined as the "crisis".

Please explain how it could be otherwise?




> > > It is now investigating the California crisis to
> > > determine whether Enron was culpable or not.
> >
> >More likely, they are trying to find a way to blame Enron for their own
> >stupidity rather than going to the California voter and telling them they
> >really can't vote themselves a free lunch.
> 
> FERC is a Federal agency controlled by the Republicans.

The first rolling black out stage 2 alert was declared May 22, 2000. At
that time, FERC was under the Clinton Administration for almost 8 years. 

On Dec 15, 2000, FERC allows price caps, but allows power suppliers to
charge more if they can prove the higher prices were warranted. All most
all of them were able to do this. Note that FERC is still under 8 years of
Democrat control, and the problem is NOT solved. 

Jan 4, 2001: Still Democrats in charge, an SCE and PG&E have lost billions
of dollars and are close to bankrupt. 

Jan 19, 2001: Gov. Davis commits 400 M$ to buy power for the bankrupt SCE
and PG&E. 

Feb 1, 2001: Gov. Davis puts in place a power buying plan that has
Californa buying power for SCE, PG&E and SanDG&E. The state prohibition
against long term contracts is ended. 

Feb 16, 2001: The Feb 1 plan is strengthened. 

March 27, 2001: Rate increases are put in place. 

March 29, 2001: More money into the California power buying plan. 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/04/06/state1705EDT0232.DTL


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 17:09:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07432;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:06:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:06:30 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b891e713ac63 [12.21.208.226]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:57:57 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"h-lMt3.0.up1.My5Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46138
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:48 AM 2/14/2, Jones Beene wrote:
>From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
>
>> It is the mutual orientation of the dipoles that is affected by traditional
>> NMR.  I think the energy put into getting the particles apart by NMR may be
>> near the full bond energy on average.
>
>Here is where we disagree strongly, but only an experimental device will
>suffice
>to determine whether or not NMR resonance will have enough of a spin flipping
>effect to cause separation.


It is not really a question of "if" so much as a question of "how much
energy" that I am raising. I think the "if" part depends on Q, in effect
the precision of the resonance that can be achieved.  With a high enough Q
you can build up any amount of energy in a resonace.  Of course, all the
energy that builds up in the resonance must be supplied in the incremental
stimulations. You don't get any free energy in a resonance.

There is also the question of "how often"  the neutron emission occurs.
The success rate.  The magnetic orbital is extremely unstable, so
periodically, extremes are reached.  A stimulation at just the right time
is therefore important.  Timing governs the amount of energy required for
the ionization.  The percent of time available for successful stimulation
then should be a function of the photon energy available for the
stimulation, at least for low energy photons.  Alternatively, photons of
the right frequency may act incrementally to achieve an energy storage by
the magnetic orbital.  This incremental buildup is pretty speculative,
being a speculation on top of a speculation - in old CF parlance a "two
miracle" theory, which is not good.  The final alternative is just to use
very energetic photons so that timing is not so important.

A big plus on your side in this discussion is the fact that magnetic
torqueing DOES benefit from the full kinetic energy of the orbital when the
particles are at maximum distance.  The problem is then a matter of raising
the probability that the torqueing occurs at the critical moments, say by
achieving a long term torqueing by making the field strength large.
Alternatively, large enough doses of energy can be delivered most anytime
in order to achieve ionization of the magnetic orbital, but that employs
the least desirable most energy expensive means. It is always a trade-off.



>
>Actually, your conclusion could not be correct * IF* thermal neutrons are all
>that is produced, but it might have relevance to situations where ~2.5 MeV
>neutrons are prevalent.


The methods I have discussed would only produce thermal neutrons from D.


>
>BTW, in further searching of old files I found this from Dennis Letts:
>
>"I demonstrated the [MHD resonance] effect in 1993 in the laboratories of ENECO
>in Salt Lake City, in the presence of two PhD's: Dr. John Bockris and Dr. Gale
>Thorne. Bockris then invited me to write a paper with him, which he
>presented in
>Maui, Hawaii in December 1993. The paper was peer reviewed and published in
>FUSION TECHNOLOGY in early 1994 : "Triggering of Heat and Sub-surface
>changes in Pd-D Systems." (Bockris,Sundaresan,Letts,Minevski)"
>
>[Side Note: Why does everything seem to work in Salt Lake City?]
>
>DL: "I was able to demonstrate a clear connection between the presence of a few
>milliwatts of RF and increases of several watts in the thermal output of
>Deuterated Palladium systems."
>
>Milliwatts to watts. I like the sound of that !!!
>
>But as I indicated before, I think Letts' particular technique of MHD resonance


I wonder if this really means NMR resonance?


>is self-quenching in a Pd matrix for this reason. It is strongly dependent on
>matching the exact RF fequency to the field. When a match occurs, thermal
>neutrons are emitted and immediately interact with the Pd. This creates a
>thermal gradient and Doppler shifting of the resonance frequency,


Why would this be so?  In thermal motion a large portion of the population
is going toward, and like number away, and a large number in between.
Thermal shifts should not be a major problem unless hundreds of degrees are
involved, and that kind of problem can be fixed with cooling.


> and the
>reaction is self-quenched.
>
>Also in regard to your quadrupole proposal, in that one, you have to rely on
>lower energy photons due to the low field.  With a higher field,
>especially when
>the nano field is reinforced by an imposed external field of equal value, you
>use the higher frequency RF and consequently each "tickler" photon will be much
>more energetic. In your scenario with a slight .1 T applied external field each
>photon will have about a hundred times less energy to impart to spin than
>in the
>high field 12.5 T situation.


My writeup, if I recall correctly, was based on a field strength that I
could employ with permanant magnets that I own presently.  Actually I can
do about 1.0 T.  A field strength of much more than 12.5 T can be achieved
in a decent lab, so that is not an impediment.


>
>I'm working up a proposed stripping reactor scheme that I will call ICF -
>or Ice
>Cold Fission. Pretty Bizzaro...


Don't forget LiD.  It's sometimes a good replacement for ice.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 14 18:49:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22809;
	Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:47:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:47:05 -0800
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:39:52 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00c001c1b5ca$0c4eda00$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b891e713ac63 [12.21.208.226]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"VEYFD1.0.Ia5.eQ7Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46139
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> >Actually, your conclusion could not be correct * IF* thermal neutrons are all
> >that is produced, but it might have relevance to situations where ~2.5 MeV
> >neutrons are prevalent.

> The methods I have discussed would only produce thermal neutrons from D.

Perhaps I misunderstood the implications of your statement that the RF resonance
energy would need to be a large proportion of the bond energy. If that is true
how can a thermal neutron emerge? What happens to the excess energy?

Bottom line - stripping, at least insofar as it relates to the
Oppenheimer-Phillips effect is basically a QM interaction, but one that could
possibly be made into a statistically significant effect... in that regard the
situation is analagous to another QM interaction - quantum tunneling that may be
driving some of your computer or satellite dish circuitry as we speak (unless
you are still using a '486).

[snip]

> I wonder if this really means NMR resonance?

Yes, sorry,  that particular typo is mine and appears twice, but you probably
guessed that. My apology


> >is self-quenching in a Pd matrix for this reason. It is strongly dependent on
> >matching the exact RF fequency to the field. When a match occurs, thermal
> >neutrons are emitted and immediately interact with the Pd. This creates a
> >thermal gradient and Doppler shifting of the resonance frequency,

> Why would this be so?

As you just said ... "I think the "if" part depends on Q, in effect the
precision of the resonance that can be achieved."  I believe this is more
correct than you realize.

The situation here may be quite similar to that which is found with the
Mossbauer effect - where the outside stimulation must be so precise that
"thermal doppler broadening" of only a few degrees in the target nucleus will
quench the effect. In fact many Mossbauer targets only work at cryogenic
temperatures. That is one reason that I will be proposing a cryogenic reactor
scheme:

> >...a stripping reactor scheme that I will call ICF or Ice Cold Fission...

A little dry humor was intended, but the "fission," of course, is a reference to
the fact that deuterium stripping resembles fission more than fusion and the
"ice cold" is a reference to the attempt to keep the reactor at cryogenic temps,
which as crazy as it sounds is not at all incompatible with energy production
based on the heat of nuclear reactions.

For those who haven't guessed, this scheme would be possible because the thermal
neutron can exit from a carbon based matrix and its dewar insulation and be
absorbed outside of the dewar to produce excess energy. This can be acomplished
by placing the cryogenic reactor and its thin dewar inside of a boron based
sleeve that will capture and convert each neutron into several MeV of heat. Less
than an eV of heat will need to be removed from the cryo side if the MFP can be
kept large (it will likely be >10 cm). The conversion into electricity can then
be by any means.

> Don't forget LiD.  It's sometimes a good replacement for ice.  8^)

In this particular atomic cocktail, I think it will be very critical to try to
maintain the maximum population of single atomic deuterons - as molecular
interaction would be ruinous to the kind of polarization that I am envisioning -
and of course 6Li has a very high cross section...

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 15 08:59:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28290;
	Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:56:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:56:17 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215113911.03a7aa38 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:56:46 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020214161621.1739B-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020214183252.03660eb0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"5qAJM1.0.yv6.msJRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46140
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > >  The high prices were due to California's
> > >power distribution company having bad credit ratings.
> >
> > According to the accounts I have read, the crisis caused the bad credit
> > ratings, not the other way around.
>
>?!?
>
>I've given my reasoning for the cause and effect.
>
>1) Price caps cause PG&E and SCE to sell power at a loss.

We are talking about two different price caps. The initial cap imposed on 
end-user costs did trigger the crisis. The caps imposed later on by the 
federal government on Enron and others temporarily fixed the problem, but 
if these caps remain, eventually they will do more harm than good.

When I wrote, "the crisis caused the bad credit ratings" I had in mind that 
the governor and other authorities should have taken emergency steps before 
the crisis spun out of control and bankrupted PG&E. They should have raised 
end-user costs, changed the marketing rules & structure. But it is 
difficult to change such a complex system in a short time during a crisis. 
This illustrates the vulnerability of gigantic, complex industrial systems. 
A small group of people with inside knowledge can create chaos. Nothing 
like this could happen with CF energy.


>2) Losses cause credit record of PG&E to be downgraded.

I meant that the crisis should have been stopped before this happened.


> > >More likely, they are trying to find a way to blame Enron for their own
> > >stupidity rather than going to the California voter and telling them they
> > >really can't vote themselves a free lunch.
> >
> > FERC is a Federal agency controlled by the Republicans.
>
>The first rolling black out stage 2 alert was declared May 22, 2000. At
>that time, FERC was under the Clinton Administration for almost 8 years. . . .

I did not mean that FERC is innocent, I meant that the investigation now 
being conducted by the Republicans who took over FERC would not hesitate to 
put the blame on the California governor, or for that matter on the 
previous FERC administrators. A coverup is unlikely.

I do not think anyone intended to vote for a free lunch. The people who 
designed the policies say that they assumed power costs would continue to 
fall, as they have historically. This seemed like a safe assumption.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 15 10:08:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08832;
	Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:05:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:05:23 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215125728.03a7aa38 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:05:52 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New York Times articles on new Bush climate policy
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA08801
Resent-Message-ID: <"EIPYy3.0.w92.ZtKRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46141
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The Bush administration yesterday announced new policies to deal with 
global warming (or to avoid dealing with it, opponents say). The New York 
Times op-ed pages include two good essays in favor of and against the new 
policy. The online edition of the Times requires readers to register their 
e-mail addresses, but access is free, so I recommend you go ahead and 
register. Here are some quotes from both articles.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html

PRO:

February 15, 2002
Realism in Cutting Emissions
By R. GLENN HUBBARD

The climate policy President Bush announced yesterday sets out a better and 
far more workable approach for measuring progress against global warming 
than the one in the Kyoto framework he rejected last spring. The president 
set the goal of an 18 percent reduction over the next 10 years in 
greenhouse gas intensity — the ratio of emissions to economic activity — 
not an arbitrary goal for curbs on total emissions. And he announced steps 
to get there.

This emphasis not only removes a large part of the economic risk associated 
with goals based on a fixed emission limit, but gives American industries a 
target, similar to a goal for productivity or efficiency, that they can 
shoot for in practical ways. Because it is realistic and workable, it is 
likely to move us, at last, beyond arguments at the extremes and toward 
real action against climate change.

For most of the past century, economic growth, energy use and emissions of 
carbon dioxide — the dominant greenhouse gas — have been linked. . . .


CON:

February 15, 2002
Ersatz Climate Policy
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Alert shoppers know that an extra word in a product's description can make 
a big difference, and rarely for the better. Apologies to connoisseurs of 
Velveeta, but most of us don't regard "cheese food" as a good substitute 
for plain ordinary cheese.

To the unwary, yesterday's pledge by the Bush administration to reduce 
"greenhouse gas intensity" by 18 percent may have sounded like a pledge to 
reduce greenhouse gases, the emissions (mainly carbon dioxide, released by 
burning fossil fuels) that cause global warming. In fact, that's the way it 
was reported in some news articles. But the extra word makes all the 
difference. In fact, the administration proposed to achieve almost nothing; 
consistent with that goal, it also announced specific policies that are 
trivial in scope and will have virtually no effect.

What is this thing called greenhouse gas intensity? It is the volume of 
greenhouse gas emissions divided by gross domestic product. The 
administration says that it will reduce this ratio by 18 percent over the 
next decade. But since most forecasts call for G.D.P. to expand 30 percent 
or more over the same period, this is actually a proposal to allow a 
substantial increase in emissions.

Still, doesn't holding the growth of emissions to less than the growth of 
the economy show at least some effort to face up to climate change? No, 
because that would happen anyway. In fact, the administration's target for 
reduction in greenhouse gas intensity might well be achieved without any 
policy actions — which is good news, because the administration hasn't 
really proposed any. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 15 14:34:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19286;
	Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:32:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:32:09 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b8933ce0e810 [12.21.209.16]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:35:18 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"DsrLG.0.9j4.fnORy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46142
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I've noticed some math errors with the subject theory as posted, and the
theory behind magnetic orbitals is unusual, tedious, and time consming.
Unfortunately my wife has other plans for me, and it may be a while before
I get back to it. Sorry!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 15 15:16:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07896;
	Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:14:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:14:05 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:13:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215113911.03a7aa38 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215144549.24358A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"WJ8lC3.0.Ex1.yOPRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46143
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> > > >  The high prices were due to California's
> > > >power distribution company having bad credit ratings.
> > >
> > > According to the accounts I have read, the crisis caused the bad credit
> > > ratings, not the other way around.
> >
> >?!?
> >
> >I've given my reasoning for the cause and effect.
> >
> >1) Price caps cause PG&E and SCE to sell power at a loss.
> 
> We are talking about two different price caps. The initial cap imposed on 
> end-user costs did trigger the crisis. The caps imposed later on by the 
> federal government on Enron and others temporarily fixed the problem, but 
> if these caps remain, eventually they will do more harm than good.

What evidence is there that the price caps on the energy that PG&E and SCE
bought "fixed" the problem?

There is far better reason to think that the lifting of the ban on long
term contracts and the assumption of the debt risk by the state of
California is what fixed the problem. 

Maybe Enron benefited from the requirement that energy be traded on the
spot market. This creates more trades and more trades mean more money from
Ernon. However, it doesn't appear to have made Enron rich, as they are now
bankrupt.

How did the bankruptcy of SCE and PG&E create the "crisis"? Unless one
thinks in terms of "gee, I'm not getting subsidized power anymore - my
powers shut off!" being the crisis. 
 
> When I wrote, "the crisis caused the bad credit ratings" I had in mind that 
> the governor and other authorities should have taken emergency steps before 
> the crisis spun out of control and bankrupted PG&E.

They should have realized that you can't get something for nothing and
that even "greedy, evil corporations" don't have bottomless pockets that
can pay out to them forever. It was foolish to legislate no long term
contracts, price caps on their sales, and require them to sell at a loss
in the first place. 

Had they not done this, there would have been no crisis. Generating
companies saw that PG&E and SCE were bad credit risks and they didn't want
to sell to them because they figured they wouldn't get paid. They found
excuses to shut down production, to get around the California law that
requires them to sell. 

> They should have raised 
> end-user costs, changed the marketing rules & structure. But it is 
> difficult to change such a complex system in a short time during a crisis. 
> This illustrates the vulnerability of gigantic, complex industrial systems. 
> A small group of people with inside knowledge can create chaos. Nothing 
> like this could happen with CF energy.

Gigantic, complex industrial systems were NOT the problem. The problem is
that absurd regulations were imposed and passed off as "deregulation". The
disdain for gigantic complex industrial systems manifest itself in the
legislation of price caps. 
 
> >2) Losses cause credit record of PG&E to be downgraded.
> 
> I meant that the crisis should have been stopped before this happened.

I mean that it is entirely the fault of the California legislature for
passing such a stupid law. It is a gross violation of simple economic
science right up there with outlawing the big bang, evolution, or setting
pi to equal 3. The idea was that PG&E and SCE should be made to sell
something below their cost FOREVER and always be able to buy more power to
provide greedy Californians. 

Given that you accept the idea of price caps being passed, what is it that
you think California should have done to prevent PG&E and SCE from going
bankrupt? Should they have passed the losses further up stream?

> > > >More likely, they are trying to find a way to blame Enron for their own
> > > >stupidity rather than going to the California voter and telling them they
> > > >really can't vote themselves a free lunch.
> > >
> > > FERC is a Federal agency controlled by the Republicans.
> >
> >The first rolling black out stage 2 alert was declared May 22, 2000. At
> >that time, FERC was under the Clinton Administration for almost 8 years. . . .
> 
> I did not mean that FERC is innocent, I meant that the investigation now 
> being conducted by the Republicans who took over FERC would not hesitate to 
> put the blame on the California governor, or for that matter on the 
> previous FERC administrators. A coverup is unlikely.

I don't see any blame for FERC at all. My point about the problem starting
under Clinton's administration was that this was not a political party
issue. This debacle was a Californian bi-partisian effort alone. 

> I do not think anyone intended to vote for a free lunch. The people who 
> designed the policies say that they assumed power costs would continue to 
> fall, as they have historically. This seemed like a safe assumption.

Oh, yes they did vote for a free lunch! And I'm old enough to remember
sitting in line during the oil crisis, so I know it is foolish to
think that prices are not going to fluxuate. How could that be a safe
assumption? It was folly! 

It was worse than that. Usually, under price caps, if you reach the price
cap and to sell at the price cap means that you sell at a loss, you stop
production, lay off the employees, and put the money in the bank until you
can sell at a profit. California law FORBID this. If they really thought
that their cost would not rise to the point that this would be a problem,
they would never have passes a law that required them to keep selling.
This is nothing less than pure vindictiveness against corporations.

I'm not at all happy about this, because MY bills went up (In Washington
state) so that the power companies here, which were REQUIRED to sell at a
loss to California, could only recover the losses by jacking up my bill.
Both Bush and Clinton administrations agreed that the Pacific Northwest
should be screwed to benefit California. They use the energy to heat their
hot tubs. We use the energy to keep from freezing to death in the winter. 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 15 15:25:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12771;
	Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:24:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:24:27 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:24:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New York Times articles on new Bush climate policy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215125728.03a7aa38 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215151457.24358B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA12738
Resent-Message-ID: <"KCTc61.0.O73.hYPRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46144
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The Bush administration yesterday announced new policies to deal with 
> global warming (or to avoid dealing with it, opponents say). The New York 
> Times op-ed pages include two good essays in favor of and against the new 
> policy. The online edition of the Times requires readers to register their 
> e-mail addresses, but access is free, so I recommend you go ahead and 
> register. Here are some quotes from both articles.
> 
> - Jed

[snip]

> February 15, 2002
> Realism in Cutting Emissions
> By R. GLENN HUBBARD
> 

[snip]

> For most of the past century, economic growth, energy use and emissions of 
> carbon dioxide — the dominant greenhouse gas — have been linked. . . .

1) By far, the dominate greenhouse gas is water vapor, not CO2. CO2 is
in the noise level by comparison. If you want to do something about the
greenhouse effect, get rid of all that water we call "oceans". 

2) The Greenhouse effect due to CO2 causing global warming is bogus
science. What global warming there is, is correlated with solar spectral
irradiance, not CO2 levels. To get the effect claimed, you have to:
  a) Toss out all global temperature data older than 10 years old, because
before 1990, the was NO correlation. The greenhousers claim tossing this
data out is valid because it doesn't support their conclusion!
  b) Use temperature data from locations that have gone from rural to
urban in the last 10 years. Of course, these locations have become warmer
due to human energy use.

The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of the
United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial capacity. 

[snip]

Bush's climate policy is a joke tossed out to satiate some of the people
who've fallen for the left wing propaganda. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 15 18:46:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32495;
	Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:44:03 -0800
Message-ID: <3C6DC7CE.978CD720 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:45:34 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 15, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"C1QxE2.0.fx7.pTSRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46145
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Feb 15, 2002
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:11:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 15 Feb 02   Washington, DC

1. CREATIONISM: THIS ROSE, BY ANY OTHER NAME, STILL SMELLS.
Having made Kansas an object of ridicule, this sad little comedy,
now playing under the title "Intelligent Design," promises to do
the same for Ohio and perhaps Washington state.  They've dropped
the "new Earth" stuff, but insist the "irreducible complexity" of
nature must result from an intelligent designer (WN 27 Dec 96); a
little slow maybe, but very intelligent.  Tracing the roots of
the ID movement took WN all the way back to 17th Century England. 
WN: "I understand you've had a nasty encounter with an apple." 
Isaac: "True, but it led me to an important discovery, apples are
pulled toward the ground by gravity."  WN: "Remarkable.  What's
your next project?"  Isaac: "I'm looking into falling oranges." 
WN: "But wouldn't oranges follow the same law as apples?"  Isaac:
"Reductionist nonsense.  You're mixing apples and oranges.  We'll
have to find the law for each fruit.  This is the irreducible
complexity that proves nature has an intelligent designer."

2. GLOBAL WARMING: INDUSTRY HAILS BUSH'S BOLD LEADERSHIP.  In a
speech yesterday, the President outlined his plan for reducing  
emissions.  The solution, he explained, is not to risk American
jobs by imposing restrictions on industry, but rather to ask
industry to voluntarily reduce emission levels, while providing 
them with tax breaks and incentives to encourage investment in
research.  "Economic growth is the solution, not the problem," he
said. Mr. Bush boldly called for an assessment in 2012 of how
well his plan for dealing with emissions is working, at least 4
years after he's out of office. "What we're seeing is a balanced
approach," cooed the chief spokesman for the coal industry. 

3. R&D BUDGET: CONCERNS ARE VOICED OVER PORTFOLIO BALANCE.  The
House Science Committee this week grilled the Administration on
the President's budget request.  Jack Marburger, Director of OSTP
and Rita Colwell, Director of NSF, were among those testifying. 
While supporting increases for NIH, Committee Chair Sherwood
Boehlert (R-NY) expressed the discomfort of many of the members:
"The NIH cannot undergird economic health, or even improve human
health, alone.  Yet the NIH budget is now larger than the rest of
the civilian science agencies put together, and just the increase
in the NIH budget is larger than the research budget of NSF."

4. THE MORATORIUM:  A VALENTINE TO BUSH FROM 75 LAWMAKERS.  The
letter, dated February 14, 2002, expresses "deep concern" about
reports that the Bush Administration is considering development
of a new generation of low-yield nuclear weapons and resumption
of underground nuclear testing.  Since 9/11, pressure to develop
"micro-nukes" has been justified by the use of hardened or deeply
buried targets by terrorists.  But in fact, the Dr. Strangeloves
in the Pentagon have sought them for years.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 16 12:44:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12491;
	Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:41:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:41:46 -0800
Sender: hoyt eskimo.com
Message-ID: <3C6EC3DC.350ABEBB cox.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:41:00 -0700
From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
Organization: ISUS
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: UV lamp suppliers
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"REL4w2.0.533.AGiRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46146
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi,

A while ago, there were some recommendations on suppliers of UV lamps
which I 
lost.

Please suggest a few for a short wave lamp & fixture for curing plastic,
and 
other uses in my lab.

Thanks

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 16 16:03:53 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14885;
	Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:01:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:01:16 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com
Message-Id: <v04210102b8949f986813 [192.168.123.2]>
In-Reply-To: <3C6DC7CE.978CD720 ix.netcom.com>
References: <3C6DC7CE.978CD720 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:59:43 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: NASA: interior of moon "elastic" - molten?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Jx4R3.0.Ve3.CBlRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46147
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/02/15/moon.beam/index.html

I wonder what the crustal shell thickness would compute to from the Love numbers if the interior was rarified gas or just empty space.  ;)

-- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 16 19:01:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09506;
	Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:58:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:58:53 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100313b893c84517d6 [63.233.224.204]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215151457.24358B-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215151457.24358B-100000 eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:56:37 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Creation Science
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ma2Bq.0.NK2.innRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46148
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>  Stephen Lajoie posted;
>
>The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
>creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of the
>United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial capacity.

I partially agree with you Steven, I think that the sun is putting 
out more energy. OTOH, my engineer friend makes the case that if you 
mathematically model the atmosphere the increase in CO2 makes sense.

>Creation Science OTOH is a logical explanation of a belief in the 
>divine creation of life. If you don't agree, consider the 
>alternative.


Carl Sagan, in his show Cosmos,  which I nicknamed Cosmic B S, used 
to go on about how the solar system condensed out of a dust cloud. 
Then there was this pool of water on the earth with some naturally 
occurring amino acids and phosphate salts, and then lightning struck. 
That's the idiot liberal alternative to Creation Science. It's like 
making the case that a tornado blew through a scrap yard and a 747 
flew out. I'd like to make the case that the living cell is more 
complicated than that airplane. Not only that, it has this neat error 
correction system called sexual fusion built into it.

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 16 22:28:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA09424;
	Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:26:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:26:06 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b894fdbe7c9c [12.21.209.16]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:29:03 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: UV lamp suppliers
Resent-Message-ID: <"QXL5m1.0.AJ2.zpqRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46149
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:41 PM 2/16/2, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:
>Hi,
>
>A while ago, there were some recommendations on suppliers of UV lamps
>which I
>lost.
>
>Please suggest a few for a short wave lamp & fixture for curing plastic,
>and
>other uses in my lab.
>
>Thanks
>
>Hoyt Stearns
>Scottsdale, Arizona


At 12:31 PM 6/11/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>This one covers it nicely, Ed.
>
>FJS
>
> http://www.light-sources.com/germ.html
>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 17 06:38:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA05509;
	Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:32:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:32:43 -0800
Message-ID: <003b01c1b7d9$0b214300$667bccd1 asus>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215151457.24358B-100000 eskimo.com> <a05100313b893c84517d6@[63.233.224.204]>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:25:16 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Resent-Message-ID: <"lrwj63.0._L1.ByxRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46150
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 6:56 PM
Subject: Creation Science


> >  Stephen Lajoie posted;
> >
> >The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
> >creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of
the
> >United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial
capacity.
>
> I partially agree with you Steven, I think that the sun is putting
> out more energy. OTOH, my engineer friend makes the case that if you
> mathematically model the atmosphere the increase in CO2 makes sense.
>
> >Creation Science OTOH is a logical explanation of a belief in the
> >divine creation of life. If you don't agree, consider the
> >alternative.

For anyone even vaguely engaged in the evolution -- creation science debate
I very earnestly recommend study of Stephen Kauffman's book "At Home in the
Universe", which is endorsed by Nobel laureates in physics, medicine and
economics -- which ought ot tell you something.

Kauffman is a complexity theorist who shows that random prcesses can produce
order, that complex mixtures of chemicals can produce autocatalytic chains
which produce "life". Thus ordered structures of great complexity can
spontaneously arise without a 'finger of god', and natural selection can
prune these. The 50,000 monkey theory doesn't work, as Creationists point
out. There is another source of order which exists at the edge of chaos,
where we find Life.

The book is an intellectual feast, gentlemen, well worth finding and
reading.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 17 08:18:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05528;
	Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:16:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:16:17 -0800
Message-ID: <3C6FCA6B.21B2CCBB ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:21:18 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215151457.24358B-100000 eskimo.com> <a05100313b893c84517d6@[63.233.224.204]> <003b01c1b7d9$0b214300$667bccd1@asus>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CybPW3.0.9M1.GTzRy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46151
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate because
they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they actually raise is
not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating life.  The creationists
seem to think that they can know the method and only this method is possible if
God exists.  Any other method of creation, in their minds, is inconsistent with
God's existence.  This is self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God
intervene directly in the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why would
you believe that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its
business?  Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random
chance and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
confuse man about its methods?

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 6:56 PM
> Subject: Creation Science
>
> > >  Stephen Lajoie posted;
> > >
> > >The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
> > >creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of
> the
> > >United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial
> capacity.
> >
> > I partially agree with you Steven, I think that the sun is putting
> > out more energy. OTOH, my engineer friend makes the case that if you
> > mathematically model the atmosphere the increase in CO2 makes sense.
> >
> > >Creation Science OTOH is a logical explanation of a belief in the
> > >divine creation of life. If you don't agree, consider the
> > >alternative.
>
> For anyone even vaguely engaged in the evolution -- creation science debate
> I very earnestly recommend study of Stephen Kauffman's book "At Home in the
> Universe", which is endorsed by Nobel laureates in physics, medicine and
> economics -- which ought ot tell you something.
>
> Kauffman is a complexity theorist who shows that random prcesses can produce
> order, that complex mixtures of chemicals can produce autocatalytic chains
> which produce "life". Thus ordered structures of great complexity can
> spontaneously arise without a 'finger of god', and natural selection can
> prune these. The 50,000 monkey theory doesn't work, as Creationists point
> out. There is another source of order which exists at the edge of chaos,
> where we find Life.
>
> The book is an intellectual feast, gentlemen, well worth finding and
> reading.
>
> Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 17 09:16:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26575;
	Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:13:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:13:40 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:13:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091249.17549A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"7ElRA.0.4V6.4J-Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46152
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 6:56 PM
Subject: Creation Science


> >  Stephen Lajoie posted;
> >
> >The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
> >creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of
the
> >United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial
capacity.
> 
> I partially agree with you Steven, I think that the sun is putting 
> out more energy. OTOH, my engineer friend makes the case that if you 
> mathematically model the atmosphere the increase in CO2 makes sense.

Models are just that, models. A model is only as good as it predicts.
There have been a number of models devised that predict CO2 as
the cause of global warming. They are in no way verified, and only
time will tell if they are accurate. There are also a number of models
that show that CO2 has nothing to do with global warming.

There was an article in the WSJ awhile back that showed graphs
of Solar spectral irridance, atmouspheric CO2 levels, and global
temperature over time. The global temperature and solar irridance
charts were nearly identical. 

There were many instances of temperature dropping while CO2 was
increasing. This is why those who advocate CO2 as the cause of global
warming have to throw out data older than ten years old. 

http://web.dmi.dk/solar-terrestrial/space_weather/

Notice that the temperature of the earth dropped with solar activity
during the 1940 to 1970 time period, which was a period of increasing
CO2 emissions. 

According to your friend's models, this should have been a period
of monotonic increasing.

The rebuttal to this argument is that in recent times, the global
temperature has increased more than the solar activity would
indicate. The implication is that man has caused the excess warming,
even while admitting that most of the warming is due to solar
activity. However, when you toss out the temperature measurments
that were made at locations that were once rural and are now 
urban, that difference disappears. 

> >Creation Science OTOH is a logical explanation of a belief in the 
> >divine creation of life. If you don't agree, consider the 
> >alternative.
> 
> 
> Carl Sagan, in his show Cosmos,  which I nicknamed Cosmic B S, used 
> to go on about how the solar system condensed out of a dust cloud. 
> Then there was this pool of water on the earth with some naturally 
> occurring amino acids and phosphate salts, and then lightning struck. 
> That's the idiot liberal alternative to Creation Science.

Yes. That "idiot liberal alternative" has been recreated in the
lab, as stated in the Cosmos series states. 

I agree that Cosmos had liberal politics in it. I am outraged that
Ann Druyn turned the CD version into more politics than science.
However, it has been demonstrated that this should have been
what happened. 

>  It's like 
> making the case that a tornado blew through a scrap yard and a 747 
> flew out. 

Not really. No cells flew out. Maybe you should watch it again. 

>I'd like to make the case that the living cell is more 
> complicated than that airplane. Not only that, it has this neat error 
> correction system called sexual fusion built into it.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 17 09:31:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA00334;
	Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:30:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:30:59 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:30:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091423.17549B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"HUP442.0.85.JZ-Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46153
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Edmund Storms wrote:

> I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
> because they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they
> actually raise is not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating
> life.  The creationists seem to think that they can know the method and
> only this method is possible if God exists.  Any other method of
> creation, in their minds, is inconsistent with God's existence.  This is
> self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God intervene directly in
> the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why would you believe
> that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its business? 
> Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random chance
> and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
> confuse man about its methods?

The reason why it has to be the way the creationist say it is, is because
the Bible must be proven to be true and accurate. They start with the
conclusion, that the Bible is true, and then work backwards. This violates
the bias principle in science. You can have no preconceived notions, no
matter how dear.

It appears that if there is a god, he went through great lenghts to make
sure that he not be discovered. IF he exist, then who are we to violate
that? And if we could, would he be an all powerful god? I think not! If
there was  a judgemental god as the Bible says, then it would make a lot
more sense to let us be on our own, and see how we behave on our own, than
to tell us of his existance and threaten to roast us if we misbehave.
Imagine if our court systems were like that. You put a murderer on trial
by following him around and seeing if he kills anyone else. After so many
years, you pronounce him to be good and pure. Can god be so stupid as
to do this and still be god?

The only indication that I see that something more is going on is this
awareness thing. Why are we self aware? We do we seem to be more than
"lifeless" machines? Is my computer aware? How would I know? I can see
where we can make a machine mimic human behavior, but would it be aware?  
I can see no way to experiment on this. It is beyond the relm of science
unless a way to measure awareness is found. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 17 10:17:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16662;
	Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:13:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:13:27 -0800
Message-ID: <3C6FE5E2.D9DD2D80 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:18:40 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091423.17549B-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"R0t4k2.0.C44.6B_Ry" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46154
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
> > because they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they
> > actually raise is not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating
> > life.  The creationists seem to think that they can know the method and
> > only this method is possible if God exists.  Any other method of
> > creation, in their minds, is inconsistent with God's existence.  This is
> > self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God intervene directly in
> > the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why would you believe
> > that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its business?
> > Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random chance
> > and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
> > confuse man about its methods?
>
> The reason why it has to be the way the creationist say it is, is because
> the Bible must be proven to be true and accurate. They start with the
> conclusion, that the Bible is true, and then work backwards. This violates
> the bias principle in science. You can have no preconceived notions, no
> matter how dear.

Thanks for the reminder.  I had forgotten that some people in 2002 still
believe a book written over 2000 years ago by many people in many different
circumstances and times is the literal word of God.  And, in addition,
believe that if the book is not the literal word, then their faith is
destroyed.  What is even more scary is that people having such small
imaginations are able to have an influence on life in this century when the
world is no longer believed to be flat, when we know we are only a minor
planet in over a billion galaxies, and when we are well on our way to
creating life in the laboratory.  God must be wondering just how much some of
its creations have advanced in 2000 years.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 00:17:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04119;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:15:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:15:00 -0800
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Creation Science
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:20:28 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMGEJADBAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <3C6FCA6B.21B2CCBB ix.netcom.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"H34Eq2.0.H01.3WBSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46155
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi All.

Excellent point Ed. One can follow this argument to it's logical
conclusion which is to directly identify the processes themselves
( random chance, evolution, the cycle of birth and death, etc )
as "god". As you say, it's a remarkably unimaginative notion
that god should be some vengeful petulant child in outer space huh?
As we're suggesting books, I recommend reading The Golden Bough
by Frasier. A million different conceptions of god... and of course
a bunch of the more popular current ones in their older disguises.
Eye opening.

God is right in front of our noses, so it seems to me. We talk about
his actions here, every time someone asks, "Hey what happens when I put
this salt in solution and pass current etc etc etc etc etc etc etc"

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:21 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science


I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
because
they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they actually raise
is
not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating life.  The
creationists
seem to think that they can know the method and only this method is possible
if
God exists.  Any other method of creation, in their minds, is inconsistent
with
God's existence.  This is self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God
intervene directly in the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why
would
you believe that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its
business?  Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random
chance and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
confuse man about its methods?

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 6:56 PM
> Subject: Creation Science
>
> > >  Stephen Lajoie posted;
> > >
> > >The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
> > >creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of
> the
> > >United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial
> capacity.
> >
> > I partially agree with you Steven, I think that the sun is putting
> > out more energy. OTOH, my engineer friend makes the case that if you
> > mathematically model the atmosphere the increase in CO2 makes sense.
> >
> > >Creation Science OTOH is a logical explanation of a belief in the
> > >divine creation of life. If you don't agree, consider the
> > >alternative.
>
> For anyone even vaguely engaged in the evolution -- creation science
debate
> I very earnestly recommend study of Stephen Kauffman's book "At Home in
the
> Universe", which is endorsed by Nobel laureates in physics, medicine and
> economics -- which ought ot tell you something.
>
> Kauffman is a complexity theorist who shows that random prcesses can
produce
> order, that complex mixtures of chemicals can produce autocatalytic chains
> which produce "life". Thus ordered structures of great complexity can
> spontaneously arise without a 'finger of god', and natural selection can
> prune these. The 50,000 monkey theory doesn't work, as Creationists point
> out. There is another source of order which exists at the edge of chaos,
> where we find Life.
>
> The book is an intellectual feast, gentlemen, well worth finding and
> reading.
>
> Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 01:02:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA19601;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:00:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:00:22 -0800
Message-ID: <002d01c1b85a$95360f40$363aff3e f7t8y3>
From: "Mike Butcher" <thebends ntlworld.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091423.17549B-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:59:31 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"6PunV1.0.Bo4.bACSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46156
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>
> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
> > because they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they
> > actually raise is not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating
> > life.  The creationists seem to think that they can know the method and
> > only this method is possible if God exists.  Any other method of
> > creation, in their minds, is inconsistent with God's existence.  This is
> > self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God intervene directly in
> > the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why would you believe
> > that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its business?
> > Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random chance
> > and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
> > confuse man about its methods?

Stephen Lajoie wrote:


> The reason why it has to be the way the creationist say it is, is because
> the Bible must be proven to be true and accurate. They start with the
> conclusion, that the Bible is true, and then work backwards. This violates
> the bias principle in science. You can have no preconceived notions, no
> matter how dear.


Except of course that there "can be no preconceived notions" ?

What we have in this argument is a battle of faiths - the creationists have
their faith in the God of the scriptures, the scientists have their faith in
man's ability to independently arrive at truth - in this case using
scientific method -  a method conceived and arrived at by man.

So can we have some agreements by both sides that it is not "facts" verses
"faith" but rather a battle of dogmas ?

Mike Butcher

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 06:11:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20383;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:08:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:08:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218084941.00ad0550 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:08:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Enron's role in CA energy crisis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020215144549.24358A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020215113911.03a7aa38 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"uAuSn3.0.M-4.ghGSy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46157
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>What evidence is there that the price caps on the energy that PG&E and SCE 
>bought "fixed" the problem?

The day they were imposed, the immediate crisis stopped. Power plants that 
were being held off line supposedly for unscheduled maintenance suddenly 
became available again. There was no economic incentive to artificially 
limit power.

As I said, this is not a long-term solution.


>There is far better reason to think that the lifting of the ban on long
>term contracts and the assumption of the debt risk by the state of
>California is what fixed the problem.

That helped, of course, and it was necessary, but the problem did not come 
to an abrupt halt until price caps were imposed.


>It was foolish to legislate no long term
>contracts, price caps on their sales, and require them to sell at a loss
>in the first place.

Yes it was foolish, but no one intended to do this.


>It is a gross violation of simple economic science right up there with 
>outlawing the big bang, evolution, or setting pi to equal 3. The idea was 
>that PG&E and SCE should be made to sell something below their cost 
>FOREVER and always be able to buy more power to provide greedy Californians.

No one intended to have them sell below cost. PG&E would never have 
approved of the law if they had realized this is what it would lead to. The 
legislators would not have proposed it. No one is that stupid.


>Oh, yes they did vote for a free lunch! And I'm old enough to remember
>sitting in line during the oil crisis, so I know it is foolish to
>think that prices are not going to fluxuate. How could that be a safe
>assumption? It was folly!

It was a safe assumption because historically electricity prices have not 
fluctuated much. They have gone down, relative to inflation, at a steady, 
predictable pace. Oil prices are another matter. Electricity is more stable 
because demand does not fluctuate much, and the fuel -- coal, nuclear and 
hydro -- is virtually unlimited. It is produced domestically, and not 
subject to political pressures in the Middle East.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 08:12:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01345;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:09:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:09:11 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7119D7.B058892F ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:12:29 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091423.17549B-100000 eskimo.com> <002d01c1b85a$95360f40$363aff3e@f7t8y3>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dNBS13.0.pK.cSISy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46158
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



Mike Butcher wrote:

> >
> > Edmund Storms wrote:
> >
> > > I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
> > > because they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they
> > > actually raise is not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating
> > > life.  The creationists seem to think that they can know the method and
> > > only this method is possible if God exists.  Any other method of
> > > creation, in their minds, is inconsistent with God's existence.  This is
> > > self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God intervene directly in
> > > the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why would you believe
> > > that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its business?
> > > Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random chance
> > > and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
> > > confuse man about its methods?
>
> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
>
> > The reason why it has to be the way the creationist say it is, is because
> > the Bible must be proven to be true and accurate. They start with the
> > conclusion, that the Bible is true, and then work backwards. This violates
> > the bias principle in science. You can have no preconceived notions, no
> > matter how dear.
>
> Except of course that there "can be no preconceived notions" ?
>
> What we have in this argument is a battle of faiths - the creationists have
> their faith in the God of the scriptures, the scientists have their faith in
> man's ability to independently arrive at truth - in this case using
> scientific method -  a method conceived and arrived at by man.

I'm glad you made this point because it is at the core of the confusion between
science and religion.  People who defend the methods of religion like to argue
that the "faith" of science and the "faith" of religion are equivalent. All
faith is based on something.  Each religion has a different faith with a
different basis, generally based on a revelation claimed by a single man in the
distant past and subsequently modified to bring power to certain groups.  As
you well know, these faiths do not change easily regardless of changing
circumstances.  On the other hand, the faith in science is based on revelations
experienced by many men at any time they choose to test the revelation.  The
"religions" based on these revelations are slowly modified as more revelations
are accumulated.  I ask, which of these "religions" is more true and will allow
man to grow in understanding and to prosper without conflict?  In case the
point is not obvious, I ask which of the "religions", those based on science or
those based on God goes to war to prove which is correct, and which "religion"
is used to justify what any sane man would consider to be evil acts?  Neither
"religion" has anything to do with the reality of God, but only with its
perception.  Scientist realize this fact in contrast those who practice
God-based religion.



>
>
> So can we have some agreements by both sides that it is not "facts" verses
> "faith" but rather a battle of dogmas ?

Yes, one "dogma" changes slowly while the other "dogma" never changes at all.
Which dogma do you suppose will be closer to the truth, given enough time?

Ed Storms

>
>
> Mike Butcher

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 09:04:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27570;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:02:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:02:04 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218111727.00b0e1b8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:02:04 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Religion not really in conflict with science
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"eDsgw1.0.Tk6.CEJSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46159
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I do not know much about theology, and I'm not much interested in it, but I 
would like to point out that most religions do not conflict with science. 
The Catholic Church endorsed evolution long ago, and teaches it in all 
Catholic schools. Its quarrel with Galileo has been exaggerated.

On the other hand, the Scientific American showed that scientists tend to 
be atheists more than the general population. See: "Scientists and Religion 
in America," Edward J. Larson and Larry Witham, Sept. 1999.

In Japan, the U.K. and other countries I know about, there seems to be 
little religious opposition to evolution and most other scientific 
theories. There is widespread grassroots opposition to evolution in the 
U.S., but my impression is that it is based on ignorance, superstitions and 
folk beliefs rather than what might be called organized religion or formal 
theology. All innovation and new ideas face opposition, hysteria and fear, 
which is sometimes dressed up as religion. People condemned vaccinations, 
anesthetics, automobiles, radio, computers and (recently) wind turbines as 
the work of the devil. James G. Watt, the Reagan administration Secretary 
of the interior said that conservation is unholy. He thought we should have 
faith the world is going to end soon. We're not going to need oil and other 
resources, and people who want to conserve them don't believe that Judgment 
Day is near. I doubt that many educated, sane, religious people would go 
along with such nutty ideas. I do not think it is fair to call them 
"religious." In 1960 Edward Teller thought that atmospheric nuclear testing 
was essential for national security. Not many scientists went along with 
him. Calling his ideas "scientific" was unfair to science.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 11:59:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14224;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:54:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:54:30 -0800
Message-ID: <3C715BB7.7B236810 bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:53:27 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"feqAn2.0.2U3.slLSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46160
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Keith Nagel wrote:

> As you say, it's a remarkably unimaginative notion
> that god should be some vengeful petulant child in outer space huh?

Actually, exiled for 2,000 years on the planet Fomalhaut, aka
CY30-CY30B, by the Adversary, Belial.

"The Divine Invasion", PK Dick, 1981

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 12:28:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28663;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:25:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:25:31 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218143939.00acde40 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:25:26 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: "The Friction Economy" as oil surtax
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"UgNEF3.0.V_6.vCMSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46161
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The 9/11 terrorist attack cost the U.S. economy $151 billion per year. 
These are recurring costs per annum likely to continue indefinitely. See: 
A. Bernasek, "The Friction Economy," Fortune magazine, February 18, 2002 
page 104.

Fossil fuel played a major role in the attack, for two reasons:

1. Fuel itself was the weapon, just as it was at Oklahoma City in 1995. It 
is likely to remain the weapon of choice for terrorists, as long as it is 
widely used. Fuel is a good choice because it has high energy density, it 
is cheap and readily available, and it is designed to be transported easily 
and safely. Alternative chemical fuels such as hydrogen or battery powered 
electric cars would be less suitable for use as weapons.

2. The attack was paid for with oil money. The government has recently been 
running advertisements claiming that purchases of illegal drugs support 
terrorism. This may be true, but gasoline purchases support terrorism more 
directly on a much larger scale.

The U.S. consumes 20 million barrels of oil per day. Not all is used for 
gasoline, or could be, but in any case that comes to 306 trillion gallons 
of oil per year. The economic friction caused by the attack comes to $0.49 
per gallon of oil. Factoring this into the cost of oil makes alternatives 
cheaper and more attractive. It is more difficult to determine the cost of 
ill health and damage from pollution, but it would not surprise me if this 
adds another $0.50 to the cost of oil.

The International Center for Technology Assessment estimates that the real 
cost of gasoline powered auto transport comes to roughly $5 to $15 per 
gallon. See:

http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

That seems exaggerated, but it is difficult to judge. Much of this 
estimated cost would be incurred with alternative fuels, because it is due 
to things like lost productivity caused by traffic jams, and repairs to 
roads and bridges. These are real costs, which could easily be reduced with 
rational, free market resource allocation, but they have nothing to do with 
the choice of fuel per se. Even cold fusion automobiles would cost us a 
great deal of lost productivity compared to telecommuting.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 18 19:40:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26071;
	Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:37:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:37:10 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100319b894e63d5318 [63.233.224.204]>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:34:27 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Parksie's latest pontification
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"v5x_P1.0.CN6.bXSSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46162
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In the latest email forwarded to this list Parksie continues his best 
efforts to show us his ignorance. OTOH, perhaps he is in a contest 
with Jessie Venture to see who can stick their foot further into 
their mouth.

  Is seems that some physicist had the audacity to weight some worms 
before and after killing them. There was a microscopic decrease in 
the weight, which the researchers attributed to Chi or life energy. 
Heavens! this smacks of New Age physics and necessitated an attack in 
his newsletter.

Apparently the old boy hasn't heard of the experiment conducted by a 
physician  in the early 1900's in which the doctor placed dying 
humans in a bed built on a scale. When they expired there was a 
weight loss of several ounces. This experiment was picked up by Art 
Bell, and for a time it was posted on his website. However  I recall 
reading about in, as I recall, Ripley's Believe It or Not.

Since I assume that this will work with any human being, and since 
the hospitals are full of them on the verge of death, this matter 
would be easy to resolve. But I'm sure that Parksie would rather not 
see the results of this experiment. Someone might attribute the lost 
energy to the human soul, goodness! just consider what that might 
lead to.

Damn the Isotopic ratios, full speed ahead!!--Admiral Park, at the 
Battle of the Paradigms
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 06:04:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA20685;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:56:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:56:46 -0800
Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net
Message-ID: <3C7258C9.50ABAFD6 centurytel.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:53:13 +0000
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 centurytel.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "The Friction Economy" as oil surtax
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218143939.00acde40 pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xj"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xj"
Resent-Message-ID: <"PpODy.0.735.UcbSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46163
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Jed quoted:

... 2. The attack was paid for with oil money. The government
has recently been running advertisements claiming that
purchases of illegal drugs support terrorism. This may
be true, but gasoline purchases support terrorism more
directly on a much larger scale.

The U.S. consumes 20 million barrels of oil per day. Not
all is used for gasoline, or could be, but in any case
that comes to 306 trillion gallons of oil per year ...

Hi Jed,

I think (20 x 10^6 barrels/day)(3.65 x 10^2 days/year) 
= (7.3 x 10^9 barrels/year)(3.15 x 10 gallons/barrel)
= 2.3 x 10^11 gallons/year, not 306 x 10^12 gallons/year.
Did I make a mistake?  Anyway, I agree with you that 
the principal source of terrorist funding is oil money; so 
I'm making the following proposal:

"Why are we pouring billions of dollars into the pockets
of those who may be funding the Osama bin Ladens of the world?

The United States should switch from gasoline to
methanol (also known as methyl alcohol or wood
alcohol) for its liquid fuel.

Methanol can be made by well-known processes from methane
(natural gas) and coal.  Why should we put money for oil
into the hands of assassins while the United States has large
reserves of methane and coal?

For clarification: methanol is not used in gas-o-hol,
which is burned in engines that are designed to use
gasoline.  Gas-o-hol is made by mixing gasoline with ethanol
(also know as ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol).

It would be difficult to use gasoline in engines that are
designed to burn methanol since, at least, the valves and
fuel injection would have to be changed.  We should invest
in this retooling to break free from our dependence on oil.

If the United States switches from gasoline to methanol,
those wishing to sell automobiles in the US market would
have to make them able to use methanol.  Given the size
of the American market, it is likely that most of the
world would adopt methanol as the liquid fuel.

This would be a severe financial blow to those who are
using oil dollars in an attempt to enslave or exterminate us."

While I have great hopes for cold fusion, we can do the
methanol solution now -- later, hopefully, energized by CF.

Previously, regarding the supply of methane, I  wrote:

Some maintain that "fossil" fuels are primarily of
inorganic origin, and that they are continuously
produced deep within the Earth starting with methane.

hamdi ucar wrote:

... methane would be primordial according your hypothesis, ...

Jack Smith wrote:

There is a slight chance that some of the methane is primordial;
but the likely players are hydrogen and silicon carbide,
See "Hydrogen as the Driver of Global Tectonics" by C. Warren Hunt,
"Infinite Energy", Vol. 6, #32.  (It is possible that much of the
hydrogen is not primordial to the Earth, but is the result of 
continuous capture of comets and other celestial material.)

In his article, Warren Hunt (p. 60) writes "New data from a drill hole
at Fort McMurray ... H2, CH4, and CO2 were found to evolve
continuously from the shield granite as it was pulverized by drilling 

...  hydrogen reacting with SiC produces SiH4 and CH4 ...

Silanes oxidize in the presence of the first water they encounter,
releasing their energy and silicon as volcanic effusives or passively
by creating granites ...  Hydrocarbons, mainly methane, migrating 
with the silanes, are less reactive and accumulate where barriers
obstruct their upward progress, thus generating deposits of natural
gas, petroleum, and coal ..."

Jack Smith

PS Thanks, Horace, for the discussion and derivation; I'm
still digesting it.  I didn't mean that the centripetal force
was unbalanced relative to the centrifugal force, but that
it was unbalanced in the sense that the force I exert on
a box to start pushing it across the floor is initially unbalanced
relative to the force of friction -- the box is exerting a force
on me equal to the force I'm exerting on the box as long as
I am pushing it.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 08:15:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15817;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:11:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:11:00 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7278D8.6654218B bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:10:00 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Transportation Future
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"3p3qz1.0.us3.JadSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46164
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

ABC News article on the future of Urban Transportation:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/futureoftransportation020219.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 08:36:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27838;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:34:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:34:08 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020219113246.00af64a0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:34:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: "The Friction Economy" as oil surtax
In-Reply-To: <3C7258C9.50ABAFD6 centurytel.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020218143939.00acde40 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"-ist92.0.uo6._vdSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46165
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Jed quoted:

>all is used for gasoline, or could be, but in any case
>that comes to 306 trillion gallons of oil per year ...

Oops. I meant 306 billion.


>I think (20 x 10^6 barrels/day)(3.65 x 10^2 days/year)
>= (7.3 x 10^9 barrels/year)(3.15 x 10 gallons/barrel)
>= 2.3 x 10^11 gallons/year, not 306 x 10^12 gallons/year.

There are 42 gallons/barrel, not 31.5.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 10:19:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20638;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:17:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:17:17 -0800
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Buy A Segway...
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:28:05 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEEJFDBAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"fVXzv.0.I25.iQfSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46167
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All.

Just thought I'd mention this, for those "early adopters"
Amazon is auctioning off a couple of segways. Price is
a little steep, but believe me, the ladies will come runnin'
when they see you pull up to the bar in this stylish
machine (chuckle).

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/promotion-glance/A2LK33CD53IY38/104-6376
738-1557533

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 10:21:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20492;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:17:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:17:11 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100302b8983fed3ca4 [63.233.225.85]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091249.17549A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020217091249.17549A-100000 eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:15:15 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"H0kID3.0.u_4.cQfSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46166
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Steven Lajoie posted;

>
>  > Carl Sagan, in his show Cosmos,  which I nicknamed Cosmic B S, used
>>  to go on about how the solar system condensed out of a dust cloud.
>>  Then there was this pool of water on the earth with some naturally
>>  occurring amino acids and phosphate salts, and then lightning struck.
>>  That's the idiot liberal alternative to Creation Science.
>
>Yes. That "idiot liberal alternative" has been recreated in the
>lab, as stated in the Cosmos series states.

What has been recreated in the lab? The production of life from non 
living materials, or the solar system?

>
By the way, I'm surprised that someone made a C D version of Cosmic B 
S which was even more political than the show. The whole thing was 
political to begin with.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 11:56:37 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10294;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:53:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:53:58 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:53:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
In-Reply-To: <a05100302b8983fed3ca4 [63.233.225.85]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020219114756.24792A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"wYKbP3.0.gW2.LrgSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46168
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, thomas malloy wrote:

> Steven Lajoie posted;
> 
> >
> >  > Carl Sagan, in his show Cosmos,  which I nicknamed Cosmic B S, used
> >>  to go on about how the solar system condensed out of a dust cloud.
> >>  Then there was this pool of water on the earth with some naturally
> >>  occurring amino acids and phosphate salts, and then lightning struck.
> >>  That's the idiot liberal alternative to Creation Science.
> >
> >Yes. That "idiot liberal alternative" has been recreated in the
> >lab, as stated in the Cosmos series states.
> 
> What has been recreated in the lab? The production of life from non 
> living materials, or the solar system?

Material that should have existed on the primordial earth was put into a
flask and exposed to similar conditions.

The material necessary for the formation of DNA was created. Evolutionary
selection can work on this DNA. 
 
> By the way, I'm surprised that someone made a C D version of Cosmic B 
> S which was even more political than the show. The whole thing was 
> political to begin with.

Yes, at times it was political. The revised version is much more so. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 13:35:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05969;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:29:56 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:29:56 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020219162840.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:29:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Transportation Future
In-Reply-To: <3C7278D8.6654218B bellsouth.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"jGFuN.0.8T1.GFiSy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46169
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The NASA research and next generation small jet aircraft design are 
discussed in the book "Free Flight," by James Fallows.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 14:43:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11868;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:40:40 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:40:40 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:33:09 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: e-catalyzed CF,  spin & isospin
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <005301c1b995$68f2e8e0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"QtAQq3.0.Kv2.aHjSy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46170
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Here is a follow-up comment on some recent posts on electron catalyzed fusion
(when it occurs in a metal matrix, i.e. cold fusion). I will admit, from the
start that these comments are open to the criticism that "catalysis" and
"mediation" are not exactly the same phenomenon - or that too much emphasis is
being placed on the possible importance of spin/ isospin.

Although there are a number of variants of cold fusion, it occurred to me that
perhaps the only version that could really be "electron catalyzed" might be the
variety which is not even fusion at all.

This particular low energy nuclear reaction occurs when a deuterium atom is
stripped of its neutron and the resultant thermal neutron is absorbed by either
the electrolyte (i.e. lithium) or the matrix (Pd).  Insofar as actual D+D fusion
would necessarily involve a strong force interaction, it seemingly could not be
mediated nor catalyzed by an electron spin 1/2, only by a muon of spin1 - and
indeed there is much evidence for muon catalyzed fusion in deuterium at lower
energy. However the electron could catalyze one variety of stripping, the lowest
energy version known as the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect.

Left open is the far-out possibility that CF could relate to high temperature
superconductivity, and that the electron catalysis effect might be related to
the cooper pair, a virtual boson, but that seems most unlikely now - not only
because of the pair spacing and heat problem but since there has not been a
scintilla of confirmation for any real superconductivity property in a CF cell,
Cenlani notwithstanding.

BTW there are at least two, and possibly as  many as four different versions of
neutron stripping in deuterium, depending on energy and isospin alignments.

When we think of the fundamental forces in terms of quantum mechanics, each of
these forces is mediated by the exchange of a particle. These mediating
particles are often bosons (integer spin). For the electromagnetic force, the
mediator is the photon, spin 1. In the intermediate energy version of stripping
known as spallation, a photon is indeed swapped, but in the low energy version,
the QM effect known as Oppenheimer-Phillips, there would be no need for spin
mediation if "spin flipping" were involved. The photon is massless and has no
electric charge but since it is spin 1 it can influence the nucleus and even
induce fission in certain circumstances (photofission). That is the highest
energy version of stripping. The strong force that holds protons and neutrons
together in the nucleus was thought to be most often mediated by pion
exchanges - up until about 1972, and pion exchange is still a good picture at
low energies. So it is usually said that strong force is mediated by the gluon
which is massless and has spin 1 (like the photon)- but gluon mediation may not
always be the case with the deuteron.

If "spin flipping" were involved in deuteron breakup, it would stand to reason
that such a variety of stripping may not be a pion exchange at all but instead
may be mediated or catalyzed by a spin 1/2 particle that acts as a virtual
baryon in those circumstances where the effective distance between the two
baryons gets to be large compared to their size, and consequently Heisenberg's
door is open wide enough for spin flipping to occur. That is, so long as some
"wedge" can be slipped in between the pulsating baryons long enough to "fool"
one of the baryons. Forgive the anthropomorphism.

Subatomic particles are said to possess "spin" but it is a different concept
from that of the spin of macroscopic objects. Subatomic particles in a magnetic
field are deflected in a manner which suggests that they are similar to
microscopic magnets with angular momentum, but it is wrong to compare an
electron to, say, a gyroscope because the spin of an electron never changes and
is quantitized in only two directions. If R. Mills is correct the hydrogen
electron acts as a two dimensional "orbitsphere" which traps an EUV photon in
its orbit and then itself spins on an orthogonal axis to circumscribe a sphere.
That EUV photon might be involved in another and fourth variety of stripping -
but that is not clear.

Some groupings of particles of similar mass and variant charge have properties
that are characterized by "isotopic spin" or isospin, I. Nucleons (p, n), and pi
mesons are examples of similar mass particles differing in charge by one unit.
This "I" quantity has nothing to do with the real spin of the particle, but
obeys the same addition laws as the quantum mechanical rules for adding angular
momentum or spin.  Isospin was introduced so that the neutron and the proton,
with nearly equal masses, could be treated as charge states of the same
particle, the nucleon. The charge Q in each case can be considered as due to the
orientation of an "isospin vector" in some hypothetical space, such that Q
depends on a third component I sub3. Thus the neutron and the proton were part
of an isospin doublet with I=1/2. The proton has I sub3=1/2 and the neutron has
I sub3= -1/2. When the orientation of an isospin vector is considered, it is in
some hypothetical space, not in terms of the x, y and z axes of normal
co-ordinates.

Following an old thread in sci.physics.particle, "Why are there no di-neutrons?"
I've found a new thread on sci.physics.research that addresses some of these
issues in a technical manner. My apologies to some of the original posters whose
names may have been omitted and the following is only a glimpse of isospin
complexity. They have not in any way endorsed what I am calling "spin flipping"
but I think there are rather interesting implications to isospin vectors.

The original question is the reverse of the stripping phenomena, but offers some
insight. It begins: I understand that to a good approximation the strong force
doesn't distinguish between protons and neutrons, and that this can be recast in
terms of an approximate SU(2) isospin symmetry of which |p> and |n> are
eigenstates of a "spin=1/2" rep -- which explains the similar binding energies
of small isobaric nuclei, where the Coulomb repulsion between the protons is
especially negligible.  What I *don't* get is: Why do nucleon-nucleon
interactions have any appreciable dependence on (total) isospin at all?

Keep in mind that the deuteron is just barely bound (anthropic
coincidence?), so the Coulomb repulsion would probably make the diproton
unbound, even if everything else were exactly equal. -- Phillip Helbig

Having coauthored papers on the measurement of D-states in light nuclei like the
deuteron, you'd think I know this one cold. Best I can remember it's wrapped up
in the tensor force wanting to make the nucleons line up in an S=1 state which
is an even state. The protons would then be in a triplet isospin state which is
also even. This leaves the poor old space wave function as being odd. The lowest
odd L is 1 which has a node at r=0. This node makes the average separation of
the nucleons to great to bind. (shucks, dineutrons would have been interesting).
Paul Colby

Why can a proton and a neutron bind in an I=0 singlet as deuterium H-2
~(|p>|n> - |n>|p>), but none of the I=1 triplet, including He-2 = |p>|p> and
|n>|n>, form bound states?  My only guess is that the dependency of the
interaction on spin (which must be symmetric S=1 for the I=0 states, and
anti-symmetric S=0 for the I=1 states, since nucleons are fermions), is perhaps
*stronger* than the isospin dependency, and is *repulsive* for S=0, but
*attractive* for S=1. (This would imply that the proton and neutron have
magnetic moments of opposite sign -- hmm, sounds logical because plain hydrogen
has a moment 5 times higher than that of D ...)

The putative dineutron would also require the spin dependency to be stronger
than the plain old "central potential" binding term, which strikes me as
unlikely... Is there some other simple explanation for this that I'm missing, or
is it buried deep in QCD? If the latter, is it one of the things that can be
calculated approximately using current techniques?    But one may be more
important in different circumstances than others. In particular, at the
neutron-proton level, you can see there is a mass difference, which is due to
the isospin being only approximately a good quantum number.

Can anything be made of charge and mass differential in regard to isospin vector
orientation? Maybe, and it also helps if you also have a glimmer of why parity
is not conserved.

For the optimist looking for a solution to the energy crisis, and who may be
wondering why CF is to an extent stuck in a rut, the complicated answer maybe
that CF is scarcely fusion at all, but is related to a number of QM interactions
involving isospin vectors and very small alignment probabilities and that these
are difficult to optimize, if not being totally self-quenched by the many
disorientating parameters found in CF cells, not the least of which is thermal
gradient.

As to how I arrived at that conclusion, and a possible solution, stay tuned.

Jones

PS I really hope that someone from I.E. will take the time to answer the
previous question about the Cravens/ Letts testing at NERL, even if the answer
is that "we haven't gotten around to it yet"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 17:46:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31786;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:54 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Creation Science
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:43:45 -0800
Message-ID: <001c01c1b9b0$09654920$6501a8c0 xpkitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <3C6FCA6B.21B2CCBB ix.netcom.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"FrkwT1.0.am7.PzlSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46171
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ed:
	I have read most of the thread and decide to reply to your first reply.
Creationists and Evolutionists frequently don't agree on what the issues
are.
Most do not debate the individual points and contexts, only their beliefs.
So In reply :
"I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
because
they are so blinded by their belief in God. "

Most evolutionists, are blinded by their belief in the lack of god, so much
that they miss the point of the debate, that they disbelieve the existence
of God, therefore must create a mechanism to disprove God's existence.

"The creationists
seem to think that they can know the method and only this method is possible
if
God exists. "
In fact most of Both the evolutionists and Creationists are wrong in many
area's.

The root of the debate is:

We and the universe Exist: how did it get there?

People that are lumped into "Creationism" who blindly believe in the
Scriptures without basis and proof are led to believe and have assumptions
that are false by the dogma of their religious history.

Example: There are Creative days in Genesis.
Leap of Judgment : God Created the Universe in 6 days. ( including the light
between the galaxies and the ratio of radioactive elements in the crust and
materials used to "date" )
Truth: The word for day in Hebrew means "a period of time with a beginning
and end" ;Usage: " In my grandfathers day ", "Judgment day "; Result, The
Creative days in Genesis span periods of time as long as it took. Plus,
there was no human observers until the middle of the last creative Day, and
we are still living in the Last creative day. ( it wasn't concluded ). The
words used in Genesis change to "Day and Night" meaning thereafter. So,
scientifically, Creation took as long as it took. The processes are not
described in detail, but what is described matches events that had to happen
historically including the order of  the appearance of life on earth. Does
this disprove Evolution? No, because certain scientific aspects, represented
to be portions of evolution are irrefutable scientific fact.
So according to logic, the only thing that can be wrong is our understanding
of our observations of this scientific evidence.

Likewise, people who are lumped into "Evolutionists" make assumptive leaps
of judgment regarding scientific processes.

1. Example : Aspects of Darwinian Evolution are scientifically sound, but
modern day Atheism makes leaps of faith to disprove the need of a Creator.
Observation : The fittest survivor survives to reproduce.
Leap of judgment : Creates new Species .
Fact: only proves that a fit member of a species survives a change in its
environment. There are thousands of specie extinct and records of them in
fossil and recorded history. They were not fit to survive.
2. Observation : Genetically we are only a few percent different from other
Apes and Monkey's:
Leap of judgment : we are related to them.
Fact :We can only be related to a specie who we can reproduce with, and the
offspring can reproduce.
3. Observation : Mutation in genetic structure changes the offspring of the
parent. :
Leap of judgment : this is a mechanism to create new species.
Fact : No mutation ever recorded changed one specie into another.
Observations support mutation is a degrading in the genetic structure, not
likely to be passed along to the offspring.


The debate has always revolved around history, education, and discovery.

There is self delusion and hubris on both sides. You must put down your
belief, and examine the evidence.

Your last questions are awesome. You ask the most intelligent of them.
1. Why, I ask, must God intervene directly in the workings of the machinery
it has created?  ( He does only on the occasion to fulfill his purpose )
2. Why would you believe that you have the slightest idea of how God must go
about its business? ( He used men to record his thoughts in what has become
known as the Bible )
3. a. Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random
chance ( possibly, it is not ruled out )
b. and to strengthen life by evolution, ( describe the mechanism )
c. without doing anything more than confuse man about its methods? ( Anytime
the bible touches on a scientific subject, it is always correct )

So the main question is NOT "Do you believe Evolution or Creation ?"

It is, does your explanation of how we got here and how the universe exists
match your evidence?

To people who do believe in God, "the universe was created by a God of
infinite intelligence and definite purpose".
However, anyone, regardless of belief must constantly be examining his self
to " whether these things are so.."

So Creationists may believe in Creation, but they do not have the whole
truth.
Evolution may have some aspects that are scientifically true, but by
becoming an Evolutionist to deny the existence of a Creator, is just as much
as an  inflexible orthodox religion as it is a theory.

Best wishes to all those who pursue scientific investigation and get their
discoveries past the "scientifically religious" politically correct "
orthodoxy."
I am anxious to see if the discovery of Pons and Fleischman accepted as
truth rather than heresy.

Sincerely,
	Matt Rogers.






-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 7:21 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science

I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
because
they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they actually raise
is
not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating life.  The
creationists
seem to think that they can know the method and only this method is possible
if
God exists.  Any other method of creation, in their minds, is inconsistent
with
God's existence.  This is self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God
intervene directly in the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why
would
you believe that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its
business?  Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random
chance and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
confuse man about its methods?

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 6:56 PM
> Subject: Creation Science
>
> > >  Stephen Lajoie posted;
> > >
> > >The Global warming is a psudo-scientific propaganda devised much like
> > >creation science was devised. It is an excuse to attack the economy of
> the
> > >United States by limiting CO2 emissions and thus, our industrial
> capacity.
> >
> > I partially agree with you Steven, I think that the sun is putting
> > out more energy. OTOH, my engineer friend makes the case that if you
> > mathematically model the atmosphere the increase in CO2 makes sense.
> >
> > >Creation Science OTOH is a logical explanation of a belief in the
> > >divine creation of life. If you don't agree, consider the
> > >alternative.
>
> For anyone even vaguely engaged in the evolution -- creation science
debate
> I very earnestly recommend study of Stephen Kauffman's book "At Home in
the
> Universe", which is endorsed by Nobel laureates in physics, medicine and
> economics -- which ought ot tell you something.
>
> Kauffman is a complexity theorist who shows that random prcesses can
produce
> order, that complex mixtures of chemicals can produce autocatalytic chains
> which produce "life". Thus ordered structures of great complexity can
> spontaneously arise without a 'finger of god', and natural selection can
> prune these. The 50,000 monkey theory doesn't work, as Creationists point
> out. There is another source of order which exists at the edge of chaos,
> where we find Life.
>
> The book is an intellectual feast, gentlemen, well worth finding and
> reading.
>
> Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 20:09:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00665;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:06:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:06:44 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <d1.144f2437.29a47aae aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:06:06 EST
Subject: Re: e-catalyzed CF,  spin & isospin
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d1.144f2437.29a47aae_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"LhZ7J1.0.BA.J3oSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46172
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_d1.144f2437.29a47aae_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 2/19/02 5:44:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


> Left open is the far-out possibility that CF could relate to high 
> temperature
> superconductivity, and that the electron catalysis effect might be related 
> to
> the cooper pair, a virtual boson, but that seems most unlikely now - not 
> only
> because of the pair spacing and heat problem but since there has not been a
> scintilla of confirmation for any real superconductivity property in a CF 
> cell,
> Cenlani notwithstanding.




> 
> 

You have written this off to quickly. Miley detected superconductive regions 
in a long thin wire.  A lot of work on nickel hydrogen superconductors was 
done in the 1970's.   I beleive that superconductivity is the underlying 
process.  It is not exactly superconductivity but rather hyperconductivity.  
Hyperconductivity is superconductivity at a specific frequency.  The Radio 
Institute in Russia  studied high temperature hyperconductivity.  The 
vibrations have to be just correct.  The stimulation frequency depends on the 
condensate size.  At thermal frequencies the size is 50 nanometers.  The 
vibrational constant (znidarsic's constant) is one megahertz-meter.  The 
hyperconductive condensate does not involve free electrons.  It involves 
electrons tightly coupled to mobile heavy hydrogen ions.  Thermal vibrations 
tear apart a normal condensate.  The vibrations reinforce the heavy ion 
hyperconductivity.  The delta E of each member of the condensate times the 
number of members in the condenstate produces an energy separation that is 
nuclear in magnitude.  Experiments with the Rydberg electon have show that 
nuclear energy will flow once an energy match is obtained.

I have outlined this reasoning on my web page.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html

Frank Znidarsic

--part1_d1.144f2437.29a47aae_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 2/19/02 5:44:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Left open is the far-out possibility that CF could relate to high temperature<BR>
superconductivity, and that the electron catalysis effect might be related to<BR>
the cooper pair, a virtual boson, but that seems most unlikely now - not only<BR>
because of the pair spacing and heat problem but since there has not been a<BR>
scintilla of confirmation for any real superconductivity property in a CF cell,<BR>
Cenlani notwithstanding.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
You have written this off to quickly. Miley detected superconductive regions in a long thin wire.&nbsp; A lot of work on nickel hydrogen superconductors was done in the 1970's.&nbsp;&nbsp; I beleive that superconductivity is the underlying process.&nbsp; 
It is not exactly superconductivity but rather hyperconductivity.&nbsp; Hyperconductivity is superconductivity at a specific frequency.&nbsp; The Radio Institute in Russia&nbsp; studied high temperature hyperconductivity.&nbsp; The vibrations have to be j
ust correct.&nbsp; The stimulation frequency depends on the condensate size.&nbsp; At thermal frequencies the size is 50 nanometers.&nbsp; The vibrational constant (znidarsic's constant) is one megahertz-meter.&nbsp; The hyperconductive condensate does no
t involve free electrons.&nbsp; It involves electrons tightly coupled to mobile heavy hydrogen ions.&nbsp; Thermal vibrations tear apart a normal condensate.&nbsp; The vibrations reinforce the heavy ion hyperconductivity.&nbsp; The delta E of each member 
of the condensate times the number of members in the condenstate produces an energy separation that is nuclear in magnitude.&nbsp; Experiments with the Rydberg electon have show that nuclear energy will flow once an energy match is obtained.<BR>
<BR>
I have outlined this reasoning on my web page.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d1.144f2437.29a47aae_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 19 21:43:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21743;
	Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:39:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:39:25 -0800
From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "Freenrg-L Eskimo. Com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Vortex Propulsion Testbed Vessel
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:44:12 +0700
Message-ID: <NFBBJMADALIIAMPEBBELCEPDCCAA.xplorer indo.net.id>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"MxkwW1.0.XJ5.DQpSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46173
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi again

My boat hull nears completion,
 and now it is time to begin fitting
 and testing propulsion systems.

===============================
The boat is 6 meters long, with a wingspan
 of 6 meters, hull mass near 600 kilograms.
Designed as a lifting body craft,
 it has an effective wing area of nearly 25m^2
 in a more or less deltoid shape.
The design evolved from an earlier
 wing-in-ground-effect concept.

Made of GRC/GRP nearly 1 cm thick,
 it should be able to handle fairly rough
 handling as well as fairly high G's.

I have a cockpit battery compartment for
 8 12v65ah batteries, but there is
 plenty of room in the mid-ships cargo area
 to add more if necessary.
I probably will add more, most likely
 nearing a total of 1500 ah capacity.
Conceivably, the hydrogen gas could be
 piped off, but I prefer to burn it off
 in the battery caps for safety.

Aside from a 200 liter diesel tank,
 I will have a 1000 liter water tank for
 water/steam propulsion tests.
There will be an air pressure tank
 in the engine compartment, but we haven't
 settled the capacity just yet.

I designed it with an airscoop
 for the intention to put a diesel
 engine driving a shrouded fan.
The fan is 80cm diameter, and will be
 stageable if necessary to 3 or four
 fans to use different duct plans.
The engine compartment has GRC panels
 to minimize fire hazards, and the airscoop
 ductwork will be replaceable with both a GRP
 and a metal version.
One of the fan designs has fluid ports
 running from the hollow axle through
 the fan blades to the blade tips, ala Roton.

===============================
This vessel is a test-bed for propulsion
 concepts, and it will be used only to
 run through a number of ideas.

I intend to augment the diesel propdrive
 with various propulsion schemes based
 on discussions on Freenrg-L and on Vortex-L.

First test will be steam generation by electricity [CF].
Another, only on my wish-list at the moment,
 would be JLN's electrostatic drag reduction scheme.
Frederick Sparber's idea's will be visited,
 as well as others.
Mike Johnston has been discussing water experiments
 that parallel my own, and I will be trying 
 (on a very large scale} further ideas that we
 have both considered. The electrolytic water circulation
 I have already tried, and the energy lost to electrolytic
 heating is too high for magnetic entrainment propulsion.
It does, however, lend itself to some possible
 permutations for driving CF conditions.

If I can find a conceptset that proves to be viably
 scalable, I will move on to a larger craft [12m]
 and try to implement the idea without a
 diesel driven prop as the propulsion basis.

Anyone having ideas that might be tested is welcome
 to submit suggestions, I will test the various schemes
 until I find something that works well enough
 to merit more expensive testing.

I will try to get a website up to post pictures
 if I find the time. I prefer 'doing' over journalizing.

=============================
This year should be a lot of fun.


cheers



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 00:25:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24528;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:20:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:20:19 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.1.20020219181734.00b1f7d0 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:22:39 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re:Creation Science
In-Reply-To: <200202191404.GAA23630 mx1.eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"fCCKx1.0.2_5.2nrSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46174
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate because
>they are so blinded by their belief in God.  The issue they actually raise is
>not whether God exists, but how it goes about creating life.  The creationists
>seem to think that they can know the method and only this method is 
>possible if
>God exists.  Any other method of creation, in their minds, is inconsistent 
>with
>God's existence.  This is self delusion and hubris.  Why, I ask, must God
>intervene directly in the workings of the machinery it has created?  Why would
>you believe that you have the slightest idea of how God must go about its
>business?  Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random
>chance and to strengthen life by evolution, without doing anything more than
>confuse man about its methods?
>
>Ed

Consider this theory of "God":

I am a individuated part of "God" (that is, a non-physical part of "me" is).

You are similarly a part of "God", and similarly with all other beings.

This part of "God" is one we are familiar with - it is conscious and can be 
creative (thoughts being creations in thought-space, rather than in 
matter-space).  By creative thinking, a conscious being can "try out" 
various ideas without having to create them in matter-space and 
matter-form.  The longer and more "intense" a thought is maintained, the 
more likely that a matter-form will materialise in matter-space (ie the 
physical world) through "chance", in whatever way "chances" can come about 
(quantum processes, etc).

This theory is reasonably consistent, with evolution (although a "random" 
DNA mutation might have been influenced by deliberate thought, so one would 
have to question the meaning of "random".  Presumably, nuclear decay is 
similarly still "random" but can be influenced by Mind) Creationism, and 
the paranormal (spoon-bending, telepathy, clairaudience, 
Out-of-Body-Experiences/NDEs etc).

The greatest difficulty with the theorem is that it means that we, as 
humans, would be very powerful entities.  And that would take a change of 
mind-set.

However, this theory makes no reference to the Bible (or any other 
scripture) nor does it say anything about the quality of life-after-death 
(although if "I" am a non-material entity, it is difficult to see how "I" 
could "die" at the time that my physical body ceased operating.)  That 
makes it, I would suggest, a "safer" kind of theorem than some religious ones.

I like Stephen Lajoie's reasoning a lot :-)

Stephen Lawrence.

"As punishment for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me and authority 
myself." - A. Einstein.  To his dying day, Einstein tried to convince 
people not to believe unquestionly in him: "I may well be on the wrong 
track", he said.

8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 
1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 07:25:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22433;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:22:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:22:30 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220102140.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:22:33 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Magnet refrigeration
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"QoTU92.0.RU5.syxSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46175
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/19/science/physical/19FRID.html

February 19, 2002
Building a Better Refrigerator, With Magnets
By KENNETH CHANG

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 08:50:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28172;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:42:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:42:51 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:42:23 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Stronger evidence for global warming
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"rNPNf1.0.3u6.A8zSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46176
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Many writers in "Infinite Energy" have downplayed the likelihood that 
global warming is underway, probably caused by carbon dioxide. In 
particular authors question hypothetical or theoretical modeling. Some say 
experimental evidence based on average worldwide temperature measurements 
is questionable. In recent months however, increasingly compelling data has 
been published showing that glaciers in Alaska, Europe and elsewhere have 
melted and retreated to levels not seen in more than 1000 years, and ice in 
both the North and South Poll is melting at a record pace. This is much 
easier to verify than minute upward trends in average worldwide 
temperatures. It is a very serious matter. Most of the ice at the North 
Pole is floating, so if it melts water levels will not rise. However South 
Poll glaciers sit on land.

It is impossible to be certain about the cause of global warming. It might 
be caused by some natural phenomenon, such as increased solar radiation, or 
it might be caused by some other human activity unrelated to the increased 
levels of carbon dioxide. Nevertheless, I think it would be prudent to 
reduce carbon emissions anyway, since this would have wide ranging benefits 
unrelated to global warming. It would reduce pollution and fuel consumption.

I do not like to post politically partisan comments, but I must agree with 
environmentalists who denounce the recent Bush policy on global warming as 
a charade. To arrive at the "18% reduction" in "energy 
intensity"  administration researchers first produced inflated projections 
of future energy growth. They added 18% to typical growth rates measured 
during the last 10 or 20 years. They reduced these projected growth rates 
back down to ordinary, historically normal rates and presto, they pull a 
"reduction" out of a hat. If the government does nothing, and industry 
makes no serious effort to catch up with our European and Japanese 
competitors, we will achieve this 18% reduction on schedule. On the other 
hand, if we were to invest in Japanese technology instead of Saudi Arabian 
oil, we could quickly cut energy intensity by half, save a bundle of money, 
and help our ally pull out of a severe economic recession.

Why does the administration bother to present this non-policy? If Bush does 
not believe that carbon causes global warming he should say so, rather than 
play shell games with numbers.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 09:34:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25956;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:31:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:31:17 -0800
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:23:47 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: God, Pioneer 10 slowdown and Negative energy
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <00b301c1ba33$5bac4700$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"B1l7y1.0.TL6.arzSy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46177
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Since off-topic subject matter seems to be the "plate du jour" at vortex lately,
I thought I would combine several recent threads:

Off topic #1. God and negative energy

http://www.eccosys.co.jp/lilly/simulationsPrologue.html

Off topic #2. Nemesis and negative energy. This comes from a message from Fred
Sparber:

Could Nemesis as well as one of most Binary Stars be a Negative Energy
(-E) star  that is repelling our  (+E)Sun?

 http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/extinctions-nemesis.html

Might explain the "slowing down" of the Pioneer 10, and Ulysses space probes if
it's Negative Gravity  is Repelling the Positive Gravity of the probes.

Not-So-Off  topic #3. What is negative energy?

It's complicated and it's apparently not Hawking radiation, See the thread at:

http://superstringtheory.com/forum/bhboard/messages3/75.html

On-and-Off topic #4:

How do we harness this negative energy?

One answer, return to #1, and... ask the Creator?

No. This is not cynicism, there are a actually a number of attempts going on, as
we speak, by spiritually enlightened scientists, to use ESP in order to contact
a higher level intelligence... hope the new Prometheans don't turn out like the
original...

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 09:59:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07044;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:57:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:57:08 -0800
Message-ID: <3C73E338.E8750A33 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:56:08 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: God, Pioneer 10 slowdown and Negative energy
References: <00b301c1ba33$5bac4700$8837fea9 computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"za2de1.0.uj1.qD-Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46178
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:
> 
> Since off-topic subject matter seems to be the "plate du jour" at vortex lately,
> I thought I would combine several recent threads:
> 
> Off topic #1. God and negative energy

Dr. Eugene Mallove also mentions negative energy in this month's
"The New Heretic" in Atlantis Rising Magazine:

http://209.240.132.129/pdfs/32Complete.pdf

(warning to non-broadband users: over 3 Mbyte download) 

Main site:

http://www.atlantisrising.com/

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 10:02:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10023;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:02:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:02:07 -0800
Message-ID: <3C73E463.5B016D5A bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:01:07 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"tbMSv1.0.JS2.TI-Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46179
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Many writers in "Infinite Energy" have downplayed the likelihood that
> global warming is underway, probably caused by carbon dioxide. 

With a significant contribution by methane as a byproduct of
celluose digestion in termites and bovine.  McDonalds hits us
with a double whammy in order to satiate our desire for the
hamburger when they tear down rainforests for grazing land for
cattle in S. America.

"Eat Mor Chikin!"

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 10:10:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15127;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:22 -0800
Message-ID: <20020220180915.71899.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnet refrigeration
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220102140.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"-G8zl3.0.9i3.GP-Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46180
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> See:
> 
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/19/science/physical/19FRID.html
> 
> February 19, 2002
> Building a Better Refrigerator, With Magnets
> By KENNETH CHANG
> 
> - JR
> 
Jed:

In any other case I would dearly love to read this article...  

However.  

Since I only visit the New York Times about every other month I
have to open a new account with them as each time my old
account (a incomprehencable string of numbers for a password)
is no longer accessable.  

Each time I do this I spend the next two months shuting off the
streem of SPAM that begins as a result.  I am sure that others
have this problem too.

Could you please copy send the article  (not a link)

Thanks!


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 10:10:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15657;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:54 -0800
Message-ID: <3C73D741.338C4169 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:05:24 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creation Science
References: <001c01c1b9b0$09654920$6501a8c0 xpkitty>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"B2Cy9.0.Cq3.kP-Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46181
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Matthew Rogers wrote:

> Ed:
>         I have read most of the thread and decide to reply to your first reply.
> Creationists and Evolutionists frequently don't agree on what the issues
> are.
> Most do not debate the individual points and contexts, only their beliefs.
> So In reply :
> "I'm always amazed as to how creationists miss the point of the debate
> because
> they are so blinded by their belief in God. "
>
> Most evolutionists, are blinded by their belief in the lack of god, so much
> that they miss the point of the debate, that they disbelieve the existence
> of God, therefore must create a mechanism to disprove God's existence.

Matt, it is nether true nor logical to make the argument symmetrical.  Indeed,
many people who believe in God  trust the revelations of science rather than the
revelations of the Bible with respect to physical reality.  Only a small group of
Christians insists the Bible is literal truth and an even smaller group insists
that evolution is false.  The issue would be better served if God and the Bible
were kept entirely out of the discussion.  The challenge is to discover exactly
how life evolves without introducing religion.

>
>
> "The creationists
> seem to think that they can know the method and only this method is possible
> if
> God exists. "
> In fact most of Both the evolutionists and Creationists are wrong in many
> area's.
>
> The root of the debate is:
>
> We and the universe Exist: how did it get there?

I agree.

>
>
> People that are lumped into "Creationism" who blindly believe in the
> Scriptures without basis and proof are led to believe and have assumptions
> that are false by the dogma of their religious history.
>
> Example: There are Creative days in Genesis.
> Leap of Judgment : God Created the Universe in 6 days. ( including the light
> between the galaxies and the ratio of radioactive elements in the crust and
> materials used to "date" )
> Truth: The word for day in Hebrew means "a period of time with a beginning
> and end" ;Usage: " In my grandfathers day ", "Judgment day "; Result, The
> Creative days in Genesis span periods of time as long as it took. Plus,
> there was no human observers until the middle of the last creative Day, and
> we are still living in the Last creative day. ( it wasn't concluded ). The
> words used in Genesis change to "Day and Night" meaning thereafter. So,
> scientifically, Creation took as long as it took. The processes are not
> described in detail, but what is described matches events that had to happen
> historically including the order of  the appearance of life on earth. Does
> this disprove Evolution? No, because certain scientific aspects, represented
> to be portions of evolution are irrefutable scientific fact.
> So according to logic, the only thing that can be wrong is our understanding
> of our observations of this scientific evidence.

I agree, the Bible describes in allegorical terms what may have happened to
produce the world as we know it.  Because educated people at the time of the Bible
understood more than we expect does not demonstrate that the Bible is the word of
God.

>
>
> Likewise, people who are lumped into "Evolutionists" make assumptive leaps
> of judgment regarding scientific processes.
>
> 1. Example : Aspects of Darwinian Evolution are scientifically sound, but
> modern day Atheism makes leaps of faith to disprove the need of a Creator.

Evolution does not prove the absence of God.  Just because a few people use the
concept for that purpose has no bearing on the issue.  Evolution has been
demonstrated to operate at all levels of life.  The only question is, "Is there
another mechanism operating along with evolution?"  The additional mechanism does
not have to involve any special intervention of God.  One example of such a
mechanism might be a periodic exposure of life to high level radiation so that new
species are produced too quickly for us to see the process in the geological
record.  Any person with any imagination at all can come up with other processes
that do not involve divine intervention, unless you insist that all process are
divine intervention.

>

>
> Observation : The fittest survivor survives to reproduce.
> Leap of judgment : Creates new Species .
> Fact: only proves that a fit member of a species survives a change in its
> environment. There are thousands of specie extinct and records of them in
> fossil and recorded history. They were not fit to survive.
> 2. Observation : Genetically we are only a few percent different from other
> Apes and Monkey's:
> Leap of judgment : we are related to them.
> Fact :We can only be related to a specie who we can reproduce with, and the
> offspring can reproduce.

That was the old view before genetic information became available.  Now we know a
great deal more about the relationship between the various life forms that have
been placed into arbitrary designations called species.  Clearly, humans and apes
came from a common ancestor.

>
> 3. Observation : Mutation in genetic structure changes the offspring of the
> parent. :
> Leap of judgment : this is a mechanism to create new species.
> Fact : No mutation ever recorded changed one specie into another.
> Observations support mutation is a degrading in the genetic structure, not
> likely to be passed along to the offspring.

This conclusion depends on where you draw the line in the evidence.  Clear
examples of mutation having a benefit are available up to the fruit fly and maybe
even at the mouse.

>
>
> The debate has always revolved around history, education, and discovery.
>
> There is self delusion and hubris on both sides. You must put down your
> belief, and examine the evidence.

I agree.

>
>
> Your last questions are awesome. You ask the most intelligent of them.
> 1. Why, I ask, must God intervene directly in the workings of the machinery
> it has created?  ( He does only on the occasion to fulfill his purpose )

Suppose God's present purpose is to see just what happens if he does not
intervene.  Suppose God only intervenes when it gets back to the earth after
intervening on the billions of other planets containing intelligent life, maybe
only once every million years.  Suppose God's purpose is to reformulate all the
current religions because they all have gone astray.  How would you know what
God's current purpose might be by reading a book that was written over 2000 years
ago?

>
> 2. Why would you believe that you have the slightest idea of how God must go
> about its business? ( He used men to record his thoughts in what has become
> known as the Bible )

Again, you make an assumption that the Bible is the word of God.  Many people
believe the Quran and the Book of Mormon, for example, are the word of God, yet
these books differ in many important ways.  Granted, these works, as well as many
nonreligeous books, contain great wisdom about how man should behave in order to
achieve happiness.  The problem comes when the believers in these works insist
that theirs is the only true word of God and go about killing the "heretics".

>
> 3. a. Is it not possible for God to make life by the process of random
> chance ( possibly, it is not ruled out )
> b. and to strengthen life by evolution, ( describe the mechanism )
> c. without doing anything more than confuse man about its methods? ( Anytime
> the bible touches on a scientific subject, it is always correct )

It is always correct when the translation is adjusted to make it correct.  I would
hate to use the Bible as a scientific text book.

>
>
> So the main question is NOT "Do you believe Evolution or Creation ?"
>
> It is, does your explanation of how we got here and how the universe exists
> match your evidence?

Of course not.  No explanation in any part of science matches the evidence
completely.  People are always finding a conflict from which new understanding
develops.   The problem comes when people take an explanation and make it a
personal issue based on emotion or dogma.  While evolution explains a lot, it
clearly has some holes.  Rather than plugging these holes by an arbitrary
explanation based on God, would it not be better to search for a more complete
explanation with an open mind?

>
>
> To people who do believe in God, "the universe was created by a God of
> infinite intelligence and definite purpose".
> However, anyone, regardless of belief must constantly be examining his self
> to " whether these things are so.."
>
> So Creationists may believe in Creation, but they do not have the whole
> truth.
> Evolution may have some aspects that are scientifically true, but by
> becoming an Evolutionist to deny the existence of a Creator, is just as much
> as an  inflexible orthodox religion as it is a theory.

I agree.  As I said above, the idea of evolution has nothing to do with the idea
of God, one way or the other.

>
>
> Best wishes to all those who pursue scientific investigation and get their
> discoveries past the "scientifically religious" politically correct "
> orthodoxy."
> I am anxious to see if the discovery of Pons and Fleischman accepted as
> truth rather than heresy.

Amen!

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 10:22:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21905;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:19:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:19:19 -0800
Message-ID: <3C73E86C.738745B6 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:18:20 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnet refrigeration
References: <20020220180915.71899.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8w3QQ1.0.5M5.dY-Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46182
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Charles Ford wrote:
 
> Could you please copy send the article  (not a link)

Since I am sick of working on Autocad 2000 today:

	<><><><><><><><><><>

February 19, 2002

Building a Better Refrigerator, With Magnets

By KENNETH CHANG

In 1881, Emil Warburg, a German physicist, placed a piece of
metal near a strong magnet. The metal warmed up.

Present-day scientists and engineers hope to take advantage of
that phenomenon not for heating, but the opposite: for building a
new type of refrigerator that is quiet and efficient. 

They say large commercial refrigerators or air-conditioning
systems based on the technology may be no more than a year or two
away from the market.

A company in Wisconsin has a prototype cooling unit plugged in
and working.

The cooling power of today's refrigerators comes from the
repeated compression and expansion of a gas. As the gas expands,
it cools and is cycled around an insulated compartment, chilling
the contents. By contrast, magnetic refrigerators cool by
repeatedly switching a magnetic field on and off.

In certain metals, atoms act like tiny bar magnets pointing in
random directions.

When placed in a magnetic field, the bar magnets quickly pivot,
so they are parallel with the field. That is a lower energy
state, and the surplus energy makes the atoms vibrate, producing
heat.

In other words, the metal warms up.

Engineers realized decades ago that they could turn around this
process to draw heat away from an object and, thus, cool it.
Magnetic refrigeration has been used in laboratories to cool
within a degree above absolute zero.

Now the same principles can be applied at everyday temperatures.
Here is how a spinning metal disk, a magnet and some water could
one day chill your food:

The magnet straddles one part of the disk.

As a part of the disk spins into a magnetic field, the tiny bar
magnets in the disk line up, and the temperature rises. Water
circulates over that part of the disk, cooling it.

When that part of the disk leaves the magnetic field, the bar
magnets are no longer forced into lining up.

Part of the heat energy is dissipated into jostling the bar
magnets back into random directions, cooling the disk below room
temperature. A second stream of water runs over the disk, and
that cool water is used to chill the refrigerator.

Although the concept is straightforward, researchers have been
refining the details, first looking for metals that maximize the
magnetocaloric effect. The current prototype uses a disk, about
the size of a CD, made of gadolinium, a metal used in the
recording heads of video recorders.

Earlier prototypes also used superconducting magnets - which
themselves have to be chilled to very low temperatures - to
generate the magnetic field.

In the latest prototype, the scientists fashioned a permanent
magnet that generates a field nearly as strong.

"This is getting closer to a real machine that you put in a real
device," said Dr. Karl A. Gschneidner Jr., a senior metallurgist
at the Ames Laboratory in Iowa, who has been working on the
prototypes with colleagues at Ames and a company, the
Astronautics Corporation of America in Milwaukee.

The use of a permanent magnet is "definitely a nice advance,"
said Dr. Robert D. Shull, leader of the magnetic materials group
at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in
Gaithersburg, Md. But Dr. Shull said he wanted to know more
details.

"I don't know what the efficiency of it is," he said. "That's one
of the critical numbers one needs to know whether it can be
commercialized."

There is still room for improvement.

In an article published in the journal Nature last month,
scientists at the University of Amsterdam reported that they had
created an iron- based compound that also exhibits a large
warming effect in a magnetic field. Iron and the other
ingredients in the compound are considerably less expensive than
gadolinium.

Dr. Ekkes Brück, a physics professor and an author of the paper,
called the compound "probably more feasible" for production,
"because it is a lot cheaper."

Dr. Shull said another advantage of the iron compound was that it
worked at warmer temperatures, operating in 100-degree heat, when
gadolinium might falter. 

"That is what is particularly nice about it," Dr. Shull said. "It
has these very large effects at slightly larger temperatures."

But Dr. Gschneidner worried that an ingredient in the iron
compound was the poison arsenic, while gadolinium is harmless to
animals and plants.

"I just wouldn't want that much arsenic floating around in the
world," he said. 

Dr. Shull said he doubted that the arsenic would pose a health
risk. It would be bound to the other atoms. 

Dr. Brück noted that cellphones had gallium arsenic.

Because gadolinium and the magnet are not cheap, a magnetic
refrigerator would cost more than a conventional one.

But it would also be more energy efficient, costing less to
operate. And the magnetic type would not use chlorofluorocarbons,
which eat away ozone in the upper atmosphere that protects Earth
from harmful ultraviolet radiation.

"It's environmentally much more friendly," Dr. Gschneidner said.

Something else is missing, said Robert P. Herman, a senior
engineer at Astronautics, the hum and whir of present-day
compressors.

"The only thing you may hear is a very low noise from the motor,"
Mr. Herman said. "That's about it. Once in an enclosure, you
don't even hear that." 

<end>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 11:10:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18699;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:08:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:08:02 -0800
Message-ID: <20020220190757.82376.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:07:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: God, Pioneer 10 slowdown and Negative energy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <00b301c1ba33$5bac4700$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"mQkwp3.0.1a4.IG_Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46183
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Might explain the "slowing down" of the Pioneer 10, and
> Ulysses space probes if
> it's Negative Gravity  is Repelling the Positive Gravity of
> the probes.
> 
> Not-So-Off  topic #3. What is negative energy?
> 

Jones; Vo:
There are many things that we (scientists and engineers) fail
to consider when planning large long term ventures.
First we assume that the theoretical structures on which our
science is built is "Absolutely correct" Proven mathematically
from those constants that...  Well we got from trial and error.
Second is the all failing error known as zero.  For example. 
If you launch a spacecraft into the solar system it is easy to
assume that the near zero friction is actually zero.  So you
generate a set of formula explaining the behavior of the craft
and predicting its path.  But after 3 years....   7 years...  
10 years...  You notice that the spacecraft is not where you
thought it would be.  Another mistake may have easily been to
assume that the vectors of "G" in this system are reliant only
on the bodies in this system.  (Oops)  Even when you can
measure unexplainable changes in "G" right here on earth.  
Then there is a little problem known as Conservation of Energy
(which we are all quite well versed in).  Consider the problem
that the body of the spacecraft is metallic, conductive and
offers a short conducting loop from which a current is
generated as the spacecraft passes through space borne changes
in flux.  Consider that the conductor is not perfect and that a
minute amount of power is dissipated from the spacecraft body
as it careens from one place to the next.  Now lets talk about
relative movement of the spacecraft.  relative to the solar
system,  Which is moving through the Galaxy.  Which is moving
through the Universe.  Finally consider that this power is
converted directly from the movement of the craft.  A little
each day, month, year. 
Taking these realities into consideration you should also
account for another factor  (the education factor)  When we are
thought (as engineers) shortcuts we find we like them.  We use
them and soon enough we forget what is a shortcut and what is
real.  If when predicting the movement of these spacecraft only
one factor was lost.  Perhaps a shortcut was used. perhaps we
forgot that the body of the craft was a generator,  Perhaps we
forgot about solar wind or cosmic dust. Perhaps there was
something else forgotten.
The major error here is assuming that the slowdown is anything
other than natural and normal.  Look to your formulas and
derivations.  That is where you will find the error.



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 11:14:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21435;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:11:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:11:47 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:11:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220105725.4325A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"62ghL2.0.bE5.oJ_Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46184
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Many writers in "Infinite Energy" have downplayed the likelihood that 
> global warming is underway, probably caused by carbon dioxide. In 
> particular authors question hypothetical or theoretical modeling. Some say 
> experimental evidence based on average worldwide temperature measurements 
> is questionable. In recent months however, increasingly compelling data has 
> been published showing that glaciers in Alaska, Europe and elsewhere have 
> melted and retreated to levels not seen in more than 1000 years, and ice in 
> both the North and South Poll is melting at a record pace. This is much 
> easier to verify than minute upward trends in average worldwide 
> temperatures. It is a very serious matter. Most of the ice at the North 
> Pole is floating, so if it melts water levels will not rise. However South 
> Poll glaciers sit on land.

Global temperatures have increased since the 1960s. The reason for it is
disputed, not the fact that the temperature increase exist. You cannot
reason, "it warmed, ergo CO2 is the cause". There is another suspected
cause and far better theory; solar spectral irradiance increases. 
 
> It is impossible to be certain about the cause of global warming. It might 
> be caused by some natural phenomenon, such as increased solar radiation, or 
> it might be caused by some other human activity unrelated to the increased 
> levels of carbon dioxide. Nevertheless, I think it would be prudent to 
> reduce carbon emissions anyway, since this would have wide ranging benefits 
> unrelated to global warming. It would reduce pollution and fuel consumption.

CO2 naturally occurs in air, is not a polutant, and is required for plant
life. If you mean that there are real polutants in the man made chemical
processes that produce CO2, I agree. 

But let polution determine it's own need for reduction of those processes,
and not fear and hystaria over some pseudo-scientific political propganda
based on some idea of economic "justice".

[snip]

> Why does the administration bother to present this non-policy? If Bush does 
> not believe that carbon causes global warming he should say so, rather than 
> play shell games with numbers.

I agree that it not likely to be very effective, since we are currently
shipping our industrial industry over seas. We might never reach the limit
of the increase. :-) 

It clearly is crafted to convince some of the administrations critics that
something is being done. Since the reason for their criticism is based on
the propganda story that Golbal warming is caused by evil carbon producing
capitalist (ECPC) , (and the situation is so much better if massive
amounts of C2 is produced by the People's republic of China and not the
ECPC) I don't see why it is so wrong to fight propagada with propaganda,
giving the willingness of the masses to accept propaganda.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 11:47:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10098;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:44:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:44:42 -0800
Message-ID: <003e01c1ba47$0727fcb0$fb1e010a ARCPU531>
From: "Craig Haynie" <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com> <3C73E463.5B016D5A@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:44:36 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZfjGz1.0.iT2.fo_Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46185
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> With a significant contribution by methane as a byproduct of
> celluose digestion in termites and bovine.  McDonalds hits us
> with a double whammy in order to satiate our desire for the
> hamburger when they tear down rainforests for grazing land for
> cattle in S. America.
>
> "Eat Mor Chikin!"

This is an inaccuracy which needs to be challenged; even though I'm not yet
convinced that global warming is even occurring. However, the methane which
is a byproduct of celluose digestion is not a contributor to global warming
because the carbon which is being recycled through this process, came from
the environment initially. If global warming is being caused by an increase
in carbon-based gases, then carbon for such gases must only come from
underground, since this carbon hasn't been seen in the environment for
millions of years. It's the introduction of carbon from fossil fuels which
is causing a shift in the chemical make-up of the atmosphere -- nothing from
living organisms.

Craig (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 11:55:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15921;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:54:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:54:19 -0800
Message-ID: <3C73FEB1.F544F57A bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:53:21 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com> <3C73E463.5B016D5A@bellsouth.net> <003e01c1ba47$0727fcb0$fb1e010a@ARCPU531>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"X5WTG.0.bu3.gx_Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46186
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Craig Haynie wrote:

> This is an inaccuracy which needs to be challenged; even though I'm not yet
> convinced that global warming is even occurring. However, the methane which
> is a byproduct of celluose digestion is not a contributor to global warming
> because the carbon which is being recycled through this process, came from
> the environment initially. If global warming is being caused by an increase
> in carbon-based gases, then carbon for such gases must only come from
> underground, since this carbon hasn't been seen in the environment for
> millions of years. It's the introduction of carbon from fossil fuels which
> is causing a shift in the chemical make-up of the atmosphere -- nothing from
> living organisms.

Er, "fossil" fuels were also once in the environment.

Besides, it's not my opinion, it's that of the EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/ghginfo/

Methane is number two and nitrous oxide is number three, and
that's no laughing (gas) matter.  :)

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 11:58:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18287;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:57:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:57:48 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220141546.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:36:00 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: McDonald's and rain forests
In-Reply-To: <3C73E463.5B016D5A bellsouth.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"EI5Ly1.0.fT4.y-_Sy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46187
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Terry Blanton wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > Many writers in "Infinite Energy" have downplayed the likelihood that
> > global warming is underway, probably caused by carbon dioxide.
>
>With a significant contribution by methane as a byproduct of
>celluose digestion in termites and bovine.  McDonalds hits us
>with a double whammy in order to satiate our desire for the
>hamburger when they tear down rainforests for grazing land for
>cattle in S. America.

McDonalds strongly denies this. They say:

"McDonald's does not, has not and will not permit destruction of tropical 
rain forests for its beef supply. This policy is strictly enforced and 
closely monitored by McDonald's.

Our policy is to use only locally produced and processed beef in every 
country where we have restaurants. In areas where domestic beef is not 
available, does not meet the company's quality standards, or is not 
competitive with world prices, we import beef from approved suppliers in 
other countries.

Starting in 1993, we partnered with Conservation International on a unique 
rain forest preservation project in Costa Rica and Panama known as the 
Amisconde Initiative. We continue to help local farmers replant destroyed 
rain forest acreage and develop sustainable agricultural practices."

See:

http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/usa/community/environ/faq/index.html

I do not like McDonalds food, or their culture, their pay scales, effect on 
health and diet, or the dependency on automobiles they foster. Their 
behavior in the Liebeck spilled coffee case was reprehensible. In short, 
there is a lot about McDonald's I don't care for. However, all large 
organizations have ethical problems. As far as I know, McDonald's is a 
reasonably responsible, honest corporation, and if their official corporate 
policy statements strongly assert that they do not tear down rain forests, 
I am inclined to believe it is true. I know they have made great strides in 
other environmental areas such as reducing solid waste.

Here is a thoughtful opposition point of view, asserting that all 
agriculture in Brazil results in the destruction of rain forest. That is 
probably true, but McDonald's cannot be blamed for it, and they are 
probably better than most food producers.

http://www.mcspotlight.org/people/interviews/branford.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:02:53 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20918;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:02:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:02:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Hamdi Uçar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Sender: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
References: <v01530502b884b0eb2bb2 [12.21.208.7]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:56:45 +0300
Message-ID: <GRUHYK02.W8W venus2.ttnet.net.tr>
Resent-Message-ID: <"DWkqY3.0.J65._20Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46188
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> For the sake of prodding the imagination, I enjoy posting this little essay
> on vortex periodically.
> 
>                  Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
> 
<snip>

> 
> In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for
> sustaining the reaction in a water environment.  This does not seem
> possible to me unless water itself is the fuel.  A nuclear reaction like
> 1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this.  Also, the reaction must
> produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction.  Beyond that,
> the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a bang,
> which it is not.


Simplest solution of the problem could be provided by role of the heat on the reaction.

Heat could provide both positive and negative feedback to the reaction.

A low gain positive feedback accompanied by a negative feedback which inhibit the reaction above certain temperature.

The low gain assure the reaction does not cause an immediate bang, and the negative feedback moderate the reaction.  If the water is the fuel or a component of the reaction,
escape of the water by evaporation from reaction place provide the negative feedback.

The the SHC reaction should have a temperature window. I think critical mass concept is supported by these feedback mechanisms. Thick portions of the body should burn effectively because heat does not rise too fast and evaporation is slow. On the other ha
nd thin portions have difficulty to sustain the reaction, because heat regulation is poor and water evaporate fast. It is also possible the tissues could be dehydrated by the heat of central part before the reaction reach to these parts.

Under this circumstances, we can expect active region of the reaction is the central part, where water is abundant. Water provide heat control, and low evaporation. So burning from inside prevent environment fire.

Anomalous reaction dies after the tissues lost most of water and leave it to conventional reaction of residual carbon oxidation. Absence of fumes in the fire place suggest the all carbohydrate molecules are broken and hydrogen is extracted. So the residua
l carbon is burned smoothly without fumes and flames.


> SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like
> buring sugar.  That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely
> carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it
> would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a
> body and leaves a sweet smell must be very wierd.
> 
> The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of 64.5
> s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be
> clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04
> percent natural abundance.
> 
> Well, I have done a fair job here of providing evidence as to why SHC can
> not exist!  However, there is significant evidence it does.  If it does, it
> offers clues to reaching the goal of free eenrgy, and provides specific
> questions that need answers that can be determined experimentally.  Whether
> SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for the idea mill.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:10:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27058;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:10:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:10:12 -0800
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:02:42 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: God, Pioneer 10 slowdown and Negative energy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00f501c1ba49$8ebfd4c0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <20020220190757.82376.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"aBGKt1.0.ic6.aA0Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46191
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>

> Second is the all failing error known as zero.  For example.
> If you launch a spacecraft into the solar system it is easy to
> assume that the near zero friction is actually zero.

You aren't reallt so naive to think that NASA has assumed zero friction are you?

I suspect, when they say they have no explanation it is becasue they have
exhausted all the standard and most of the nonstandard issues - ionic drag,
space curvature, relative motion, perhaps even the QM issues of pair production
etc...

Hey, if you have information that NASA should know about, please forward it
directly to them, although one can't help but suspect that they enjoy throwing
"bones" like this out to the press, most of whom are far more gullible than we
can imagine.

> The major error here is assuming that the slowdown is anything
> other than natural and normal

Actually, I would take the exact opposite stance.

Because of their past glaring billion$ debacles and embarrassment with Hubble,
etc. they are on very shaky ground vis-a-vis "missing the obvious." I think you
can be damn sure that they have covered ALL of the standard and most of the
arcane solutions before letting this cat out of the bag...

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:12:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26592;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:09:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:09:14 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b899a259293a [12.21.209.87]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:12:33 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: e-catalyzed CF,  spin & isospin
Resent-Message-ID: <"WI2cm2.0.NV6.f90Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46189
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:33 PM 2/19/2, Jones Beene wrote:
>Here is a follow-up comment on some recent posts on electron catalyzed fusion
>(when it occurs in a metal matrix, i.e. cold fusion). I will admit, from the
>start that these comments are open to the criticism that "catalysis" and
>"mediation" are not exactly the same phenomenon - or that too much emphasis is
>being placed on the possible importance of spin/ isospin.
>
>Although there are a number of variants of cold fusion, it occurred to me that
>perhaps the only version that could really be "electron catalyzed" might be the
>variety which is not even fusion at all.
>
>This particular low energy nuclear reaction occurs when a deuterium atom is
>stripped of its neutron and the resultant thermal neutron is absorbed by either
>the electrolyte (i.e. lithium) or the matrix (Pd).  Insofar as actual D+D
>fusion
>would necessarily involve a strong force interaction, it seemingly could not be
>mediated nor catalyzed by an electron spin 1/2,


Not that it discounts what you otherwise say here, but just to be sure I
have been clear in my discussion of electon catalysis, the issue of spin
quanta is simply not relevant to any theory or hypothesis I have put
forward thus far in regard to electron catalysis.  This includes either
electron catalysis of fusion (EC or ECF), or electron magnetic catalysis of
stripping  (EMC of EMCF).  In the process of catalysis, the catalyitc agent
(in this case the electron) is both an input to and a final product of the
reaction, but serves to increase the probability of specific final reaction
products.

In ECF a high energy small wavelength electron overcomes the Coulomb
barrier by screening one nucleus from another's coulomb charge.  The
feasiblity of this is self evident given the correct initial starting
conditions.  The fusion probability is mere affected by electromechanically
increasing the proximity of the nucelii sufficiently that tunneling becomes
probable so that ordinary nuclear fusion results.  The utilization of the
theory is then a matter of engineering suffciently probable starting
conditions.  The fact that electron catalysis of fusion can and does occur
I think is self-evident.  The math is trivial for proving that, and I have
already provided sufficent theory to prove that, trivial as it is.

EMCS shows the helpful nature of a strong third magnetic field (from the
catalytic electron) in breaking a magnetic bond between a proton and
deuteron by reducing the torque required to reverse the force between them.
Again, the deBroglie wavelength of the catalytic electron is important to
this reaction, in that the field strength of the catalytic electron
increases with decreased wavelength.  Therefore a minimum energy is
required to achieve the required wavelength, possibly in the 10 keV or
above range.  I think, given specific initial starting conditions, the
existence of the EMC effect is also self-evident - provided the nuclear
binding of any deuteron which can strip is only magnetic, i.e. does not
involve the strong force.  However, I haven't yet posted the calculations
for this, for unrelated reasons.  It is the underlying assumption of the
EMCS theory that the deuteron nuclear bond is not strong force mediated, at
least in some deuterons, that is the most significant flaw in the EMCS
theory.

The hypothesis of the magnetic orbital is simply a brief intellectual
exploration prompted by your posts Jones.  However, it does seem to answer
some basic questions, like why the dramatic effect of a weak axial field,
so may be the basis for some further explorations.   EMCS is merely a
plaything at the moment, but ECF I think is on fairly solid ground.  In
neither case, though, is force mediation an issue, except mediation of the
EM force, which is virtual photon mediated.  Spin and isospin are therefore
presently immaterial to these theories.  This is the stuff of actual
nuclear theory, which may be far more relevant to CF and other
environments, as you imply.

It may be another interesting question as to whether, in some
circumstances,  the deuteron's nuclear bond could periodically and
spontaneously switch back and forth between a strong force and magnetic
force bond state, or whether these states could even simultaneously exist
until a sampling occurs that choses the binding state.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:12:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26658;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:09:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:09:19 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8999cb8d6bc [12.21.209.87]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:12:28 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"6gfVX.0.KW6.k90Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46190
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 6:39 PM 2/14/2, Jones Beene wrote:
>From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
>
>> >Actually, your conclusion could not be correct * IF* thermal neutrons
>>are all
>> >that is produced, but it might have relevance to situations where ~2.5 MeV
>> >neutrons are prevalent.
>
>> The methods I have discussed would only produce thermal neutrons from D.
>
>Perhaps I misunderstood the implications of your statement that the RF
>resonance
>energy would need to be a large proportion of the bond energy. If that is true
>how can a thermal neutron emerge? What happens to the excess energy?


What excess energy??   The D is formed by p + n -> D + 2.22 Mev.   The bond
represents an energy hole.  If you can cause the p and n to separate, then
you can get another shot of 2.22 MeV out of them by recombining.  This is
the great mystery of stripping reactions which can ostensibly pull the
neutron out of the D by a mere 10 - 20 keV collision.   My suggested
solution to the mystery is the magnetic orbtial model of the deuteron.
This model explains how this is feasible, and why even a weak ambient axial
magnetic field plays a dramatic role in the frequency of stripping.  The
energy comes from the Heisenberg uncertainty associated with the small
radius of the magnetic orbital.  The ZPE sea provides a means to
permanently borrow about 2.0 MeV per neutron stripped from D.


>
>Bottom line - stripping, at least insofar as it relates to the
>Oppenheimer-Phillips effect is basically a QM interaction,


Thus far, no quantized effects have manifested as necessary to the magnetic
orbital theory, only the wave like nature of matter and the Heisenberg
boundary to momentum uncertainty is thus far critical to the concept.  If
such a simple model can be shown to explain stripping, or to produce useful
devices, perhaps there is no need for a more sophisticated model, at least
to justify further research?  Though resonance based theories may be of use
in specific environments, like lattice conditions associated with CF for
example, I cannot believe these are significant to or help explain
classical stripping that occurs in Stellerators or in D beam targets.  It
might be shown that some form of nuclear pumping occurs that stores kinetic
energy in the nucelii, and if so , this would be unfortunate, in that the
required pumped energy storage amount might be the full 2.0 MeV, and thus
no free energy is available - other than that obtained by later reacting
the stripped neutrons with heavier nucleii.  However, it does not seem to
me that it is possible to store 2.0 MeV energy in a 20 keV deuteron hitting
a metal target on a one time basis, so it seems certain we are looking at a
heretofore untapped energy resource in the stripping process.

HELP!

Jones, do you have any data with regard to the size of the dumbell that is
the D nucleus?  Do you have the bond length, and the size of the neutron
and proton bumps?  For that matter, does anyone have the size of a "cold"
neutron or proton - i.e. not related to the deBroglie wavelength?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:16:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30249;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:15:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:15:29 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7403A9.BC6FDCE7 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:14:33 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: McDonald's and rain forests
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020220141546.00af4200@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"0ZtwW2.0.RO7.XF0Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46192
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> McDonalds strongly denies this. They say:
> 
> "McDonald's does not, has not and will not permit destruction of tropical
> rain forests for its beef supply. This policy is strictly enforced and
> closely monitored by McDonald's.

And to that I say "hogwash".  It is the demand for beef that is
the issue, not which cow goes where.

Coca-cola also denies that they ever had cocaine in their
product; but, check out Emory University's history of the company
for the truth.

BTW, here's a CNN report on greenhouse gases:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/16/nasa.greenhouse.enn/

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:31:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06178;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:30:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:30:12 -0800
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:22:37 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <010b01c1ba4c$573bc420$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530501b8999cb8d6bc [12.21.209.87]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ysx6o2.0.NW1.JT0Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46193
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> HELP!

> Jones, do you have any data with regard to the size of the dumbell that is
> the D nucleus?  Do you have the bond length, and the size of the neutron
> and proton bumps?  For that matter, does anyone have the size of a "cold"
> neutron or proton - i.e. not related to the deBroglie wavelength?

Yes, At least some of our tax dollars are working... I've got it all and much
more somewhere, but don't have time to pull it together from PDF files just now.
Here is where most of the data came from:

http://www.jlab.org/

Later on this week, I'll try to get cut and paste the data into an email for
you, if you can't find it beforehand.

Jones

Also check

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:36:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08303;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:34:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:34:04 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220150631.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:32:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220105725.4325A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"4cmM71.0.Z12.yW0Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46194
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>Global temperatures have increased since the 1960s. The reason for it is
>disputed, not the fact that the temperature increase exist. You cannot
>reason, "it warmed, ergo CO2 is the cause".

I did not say that. My very next sentence, which you quoted, concedes that 
we cannot make that conclusion -- although we cannot dismiss it by any 
means. Please do not be argumentative to no purpose.


>CO2 naturally occurs in air, is not a polutant, and is required for plant
>life. If you mean that there are real polutants in the man made chemical
>processes that produce CO2, I agree.

The fact that CO2 occurs naturally does not preclude its being pollution. A 
substance may be benign or helpful at one concentration, yet it may be 
harmful at a higher concentration. Any man-made change in the natural 
balance of substances in the atmosphere, land or water is likely to be 
deleterious to human health and other species. The side effects of 
seemingly small changes can be dramatic, and irreversible. We could easily 
reduce CO2 at a moderate pace. It would cost nothing. It would, in fact, 
save money. We are taking a great risk and throwing away resources with no 
benefit to anyone except the fossil fuel companies.


>But let polution determine it's own need for reduction of those processes 
>. . .

Pollution is not animate or intelligent, and it has no legal 
responsibilities. Corporations that create problems and public nuisances 
should be compelled to fix them. If we let natural processes reduce CO2, 
they may produce harmful side effects. And for what? Why? So that Exxon can 
make more profit? A person driving an SUV would be exactly as safe and 
pampered with a hybrid motor that consumed half the fuel, and she would end 
up with a more money left in the bank.


>and not fear and hystaria over some pseudo-scientific political propganda 
>based on some idea of economic "justice".

Economic justice has nothing to do with it. It is old fashioned engineering 
and common sense. Machine efficiency has increased steadily since the 
beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Pollution has steadily declined. We 
should not stop progress just to protect Exxon's and Halliburton's profits. 
It isn't worth it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 12:45:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13404;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:44:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:44:22 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b899b5d3bc99 [12.21.209.87]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:47:41 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA13354
Resent-Message-ID: <"3vBBt.0.MH3.bg0Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46195
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:56 PM 2/20/2, Hamdi Uçar wrote:

>Simplest solution of the problem could be provided by role of the heat on
>the reaction.
>
>Heat could provide both positive and negative feedback to the reaction.
>
>A low gain positive feedback accompanied by a negative feedback which
>inhibit the reaction above certain temperature.
>
>The low gain assure the reaction does not cause an immediate bang, and the
>negative feedback moderate the reaction.  If the water is the fuel or a
>component of the reaction,
>escape of the water by evaporation from reaction place provide the
>negative feedback.
>
>The the SHC reaction should have a temperature window. I think critical
>mass concept is supported by these feedback mechanisms. Thick portions of
>the body should burn effectively because heat does not rise too fast and
>evaporation is slow. On the other hand thin portions have difficulty to
>sustain the reaction, because heat regulation is poor and water evaporate
>fast. It is also possible the tissues could be dehydrated by the heat of
>central part before the reaction reach to these parts.
>
>Under this circumstances, we can expect active region of the reaction is
>the central part, where water is abundant. Water provide heat control, and
>low evaporation. So burning from inside prevent environment fire.
>
>Anomalous reaction dies after the tissues lost most of water and leave it
>to conventional reaction of residual carbon oxidation. Absence of fumes in
>the fire place suggest the all carbohydrate molecules are broken and
>hydrogen is extracted. So the residual carbon is burned smoothly without
>fumes and flames.


I think this idea of combined postive and negative feedback controlling the
reaction is very good.   I think there is still some missing ingredient or
factor that must be controlled to obtain reproducibility.  Not having this
information prevents controlled replication.  Some aspects that can not be
replicated in ordinary wicking experiments is the reduction of the bones to
a powdered white ash and the very short reaction completion time for SHC vs
wicking.  This makes me wonder if the bone matrix somehow plays an
important role, either in providing a lattice of some kind, or by providing
some fuel or catalytic agents or properties.  This may be an indication
that I am simply wrong about water being the nuclear fuel, but rather that
the nuclear fuel is in the bones and that the flesh is rapidly dehydrated
by the nuclear reaction in the bones and burned in an ordinary manner.
However, bones make up a much larger proportion of the extremity weight, so
this is perhaps not a good explanation either.

There is also the problem of the very special circumstances.  We need to
know why very few humans, and I assume even fewer animals, exhibit the
critical aspects of SHC, despite a wide variety of stimuli and
circumstances.  Some very special circumstance, be it diet or metabolism or
whatever, seems to be required.  Perhaps it is calcium or potassium
related.

In any case, a full explanation should lead to the ability to do
experiemnts that result in fast consumption of the subject and reduction of
the bones to white ash.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:09:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24571;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:06:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:06:26 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220153823.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:06:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: McDonald's and rain forests
In-Reply-To: <3C7403A9.BC6FDCE7 bellsouth.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020220141546.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"U7IvC.0.i_5.H_0Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46196
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Terry Blanton wrote:

 > "McDonald's does not, has not and will not permit destruction of tropical
> > rain forests for its beef supply. This policy is strictly enforced and
> > closely monitored by McDonald's.
>
>And to that I say "hogwash".  It is the demand for beef that is
>the issue, not which cow goes where.

The specific issue covered by their public statement is whether or not they 
destroy or encourage others to destroy rain forests. You have raised a 
different issue -- important perhaps, but different. The judge in the 
British libel trial looked at this issue very carefully, and reached what I 
consider a balanced and fair decision. See:

http://www.mcspotlight.org/case/trial/verdict/verdict_jud1d.html


>Coca-cola also denies that they ever had cocaine in their
>product; but, check out Emory University's history of the company
>for the truth.

They have NEVER denied that! It is common knowledge. Every history of 
Coca-cola describes this. They still use denatured coca leaves. It was 
grandfathered into the law in 1901. They buy the extract from the only 
company in the U.S. allowed to import the leaves, under strict government 
supervision, which also produces medicinal cocaine.

That they would deny such a thing is, itself, an absurd urban myth. Do you 
think the name "coca" is a coincidence?

See:

http://www.snopes2.com/cokelore/cocaine.htm

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/9_3%20The%20Legal%20Importation%20of%20Coca%20Leaf.htm

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/imprt/app/2001/fr101711.htm

(The last item is the Dept. of Justice waiver allowing importation.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:11:23 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27867;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:10:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:10:19 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:10:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220150631.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220124224.12714A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"iDlBb1.0.Kp6.x21Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46197
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >Global temperatures have increased since the 1960s. The reason for it is
> >disputed, not the fact that the temperature increase exist. You cannot
> >reason, "it warmed, ergo CO2 is the cause".
> 
> I did not say that. My very next sentence, which you quoted, concedes that 
> we cannot make that conclusion -- although we cannot dismiss it by any 
> means. Please do not be argumentative to no purpose.
 
Actually, I didn't say you said that, if you want to be that percise. 
:-) You might even read into what I said that I was agreeing with you. 

You said that there is global warming and we don't know what causes it,
and so did I. How is that argumentive? :-)

> >CO2 naturally occurs in air, is not a polutant, and is required for plant
> >life. If you mean that there are real polutants in the man made chemical
> >processes that produce CO2, I agree.
> 
> The fact that CO2 occurs naturally does not preclude its being pollution.

Well, there is an odd concept. 

> A 
> substance may be benign or helpful at one concentration, yet it may be 
> harmful at a higher concentration. Any man-made change in the natural 
> balance of substances in the atmosphere, land or water is likely to be 
> deleterious to human health and other species.

If CO2 is not causing Global Warming, and there is no rational science
that says that it is, then what are these deleterious effects? Plants grow
faster? 


>  The side effects of 
>  seemingly small changes can be dramatic, and irreversible.

Could be, but it is not proven that small changes in CO2 levels will
produce dramatic, irreversible changes in this case. 

> We could easily 
> reduce CO2 at a moderate pace. It would cost nothing.

1) It would cost billions. You're talking about shutting down entire
industries like the auto industry, developing new technologies that are
not yet well developed, and retooling. It might be a disaster to the U.S.
economy. Geezus. These guys can't even go metric!

2) Since the proposed treaty limits US production of CO2 and allows
massive production of CO2 by other countries, what's the point? 

> It would, in fact, 
> save money. We are taking a great risk and throwing away resources with no 
> benefit to anyone except the fossil fuel companies.

The benefit or harm to the fossil fuel companies is not a scientific issue
or a scientific interest. I am curious why you equate anything good for
the fossile fuel interest as being a moral "bad", or that other people are
motivated to do things for the sake of the oil companies. 

Why do you bring that up?

I don't care for the oil companies, but I don't want to drive them out of
business for the sake of doing so, either. 

> >But let polution determine it's own need for reduction of those processes 
> >. . .
> 
> Pollution is not animate or intelligent, and it has no legal 
> responsibilities. Corporations that create problems and public nuisances 
> should be compelled to fix them. If we let natural processes reduce CO2, 
> they may produce harmful side effects. And for what? Why? So that Exxon can 
> make more profit? A person driving an SUV would be exactly as safe and 
> pampered with a hybrid motor that consumed half the fuel, and she would end 
> up with a more money left in the bank.

There are 6 billion people on this planet. Seems to me that if your going
to shut down all human activity that is SUSPECTED of causing harm to the
enviroment, then you are dooming them to live in the stone age and forcing
a reduction in population where 99.9% of them must die off. 

I don't see Exxon as the enemy, I guess. I see it as one of a number of
large companies that provide the oil that people want to buy. 

As for hybrid motors, I see no conspiracy to prevent them from the market.
If they work, bring them on. All too often technical problems are
interpreted as conspiracies. 
 
> >and not fear and hystaria over some pseudo-scientific political propganda 
> >based on some idea of economic "justice".
> 
> Economic justice has nothing to do with it.

Sure it does. The people who fabricated the Global Warming by CO2 scare
have "economic justice" as their agenda. They think it is unjust that the
US uses so much of the world's resources. 

Maybe so or maybe not, but flinging pseudo-sciencetific scare tactics into
the mix becausethey don't think people will accept their politics is
unethical.

I say speak to the issue on the merits of the issue and not raise red
herrings. 

> It is old fashioned engineering 
> and common sense. Machine efficiency has increased steadily since the 
> beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Pollution has steadily declined. We 
> should not stop progress just to protect Exxon's and Halliburton's profits. 
> It isn't worth it.

I don't recall my coming to the defense of the oil companies before. I'm
not defending them now, other than to say they are not evil in and of
themselves because they deal in oil. 

I want oil, I buy it. Seems your issue is not with the people we buy from,
but with the people who want the oil. You want to stop us from using oil
by atacking the oil sellers. It is much more convincing to blame those oil
company fat cats than some oblivious socker mom with an SUV, huh?  :-)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:17:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31776;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:16:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:16:50 -0800
Message-ID: <20020220211644.36726.qmail web11204.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:16:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnet refrigeration
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <3C73E86C.738745B6 bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"TdpPL2.0.Hm7.091Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46198
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks Terry...
--- Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Charles Ford wrote:
>  
> > Could you please copy send the article  (not a link)
> 
> Since I am sick of working on Autocad 2000 today:
> 
> 	<><><><><><><><><><>
> 
> February 19, 2002
> 
> Building a Better Refrigerator, With Magnets
> 
> By KENNETH CHANG
> 
> In 1881, Emil Warburg, a German physicist, placed a piece of
<<HACK>>

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:23:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02234;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:22:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:22:24 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220160954.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:22:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC)
In-Reply-To: <v01530503b899b5d3bc99 [12.21.209.87]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"C3a3b2.0.hY.EE1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46199
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>There is also the problem of the very special circumstances.  We need to 
>know why very few humans, and I assume even fewer animals, exhibit the 
>critical aspects of SHC . . .

Is that true? SCH is so rare among people that if it occurred at the same 
rate among animals I doubt anyone would ever find the evidence. I presume 
it is more likely with a sick animal. Sick and dying animals crawl off and 
hide very effectively. Millions of animals die in the woods every year. In 
North America larger species are rarely captured by predators and consumed 
right away, yet hiking through woods and fields you seldom come across the 
remains. I know a farmer who has lost cows on a 150 acre Georgia farm.

I believe SHC has been associated with obesity. That is a rare condition in 
wild animals.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:33:28 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07151;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:30:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:30:58 -0800
Message-ID: <3C741555.93A82CF5 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:29:57 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: McDonald's and rain forests
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020220141546.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020220153823.00af4200@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"4d0Em3.0.Zl1.HM1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46200
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> >Coca-cola also denies that they ever had cocaine in their
> >product; but, check out Emory University's history of the company
> >for the truth.
> 
> They have NEVER denied that! It is common knowledge. Every history of
> Coca-cola describes this. They still use denatured coca leaves. It was
> grandfathered into the law in 1901. They buy the extract from the only
> company in the U.S. allowed to import the leaves, under strict government
> supervision, which also produces medicinal cocaine.
> 
> That they would deny such a thing is, itself, an absurd urban myth. Do you
> think the name "coca" is a coincidence?

When was the last time you visited the World of Coca-Cola
downtown?  Last time I was there, about 2 years ago, they were
actually denying the ingredient contrary to the historical
references.  I was flabbergasted.

I know they had coke in coke.  Some people learned that you could
precipitate the drug from solution with baking soda.  People who
were addicted to the product were called "coke fiends".  My
grandparents actually called coke "dope" as in "Pass me a bottle
of dope".

Their web page is mute on the subject.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:39:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10237;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:38:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:38:21 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100304b898ee573b74 [63.233.225.85]>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:36:45 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: The origin of matter
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"c33K73.0.hV2.BT1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46201
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

As I have mentioned previously, I read the article in Infinite Energy 
which talked about the Shappeller device. The article mentioned a 
book by Cyril Davson, The Physics of the Primary State of Matter. 
This is a rare book. Following my unsuccessful efforts to find it on 
Amazon's search engine, I posted a note on Vortex-L and received a 
copy of the book from a man in England.

I am quite impressed with it. I just read the following paragraphs 
which I am going to post here for comment.

The fundamental origin of origin-matter is, of course, the Creator, 
and He is Consciousness. His condition is energy, His functioning is 
potential, His force is vacuum. He has not made "the laws of Nature" 
and thereby the Dynamic of the Universe. He is the Dynamic. His 
functioning is the laws, which we are permitted do discern within the 
limits vouchsafed to us.

Now if origin-matter were protons, electrons and neutrons, then the 
Creator must likewise be a product of these sterile constituents. He 
is then certainly not a Creator but a robot.  The only Creator 
possible is consciousness. So origin-matter is conscious and 
origin-energy is origin-matter and is therefore also conscious, 
because origin, as such, is conscious-physical. The words energy and 
matter here are therefore superfluous, if not actually meaningless 
restrictions; the only word available which is universal and 
complete, yet unconfined, is "creator." Every word in our human 
language must have it's definition, words thus isolate and insulate 
meanings through the restrictions they impose. The words energy, 
matter and the like are therefore only permissible for 
origin-derivatives, and this is why no word con express "absolute 
meaning," since a derivative is itself not absolute, but relative or 
referable to origin.

Derivatives of this origin-matter or consciousness are termed Life. 
These are a condition of the energies with form, and when clothed in 
the solid state we term it organic life. And organic life is 
maintained by the forces existing in our "conditional elements," viz, 
earth, air and water, all of which originated from fire (glowing 
magnetism).

Organic life is really the centripetal action of these forces, that 
is in it's first form as life-force, or centripetally formed 
biomagnetism.

There are many who say that they will under no conditions accept a 
Good or a Creator as such, and that for them Nature and that alone is 
the Creator.

This amusing contradiction is an expedient used to relieve man of all 
responsibility for his actions.

An abstract Creator cannot judge his, cannot demand from man any service.
But a Creator is Consciousness, Nature is conscious or consciousness, 
otherwise we who speaking abstractly, are products of Nature, if 
there are those who prefer the term, could not be endowed with the 
faculty of consciousness. Therefore the functioning of Nature or God, 
it is nevertheless the Creator, the All-Prevading Consciousness. This 
si where real Science, the real Physics, the all-important point 
being that the Primary Force, of which all other forces known and 
used by us at present are derivatives, is conscious-physical -- This 
is the blind spot of science and all "origin research."

The physical is a derivative out of the spiritual consciousness, the 
essence out of the Creator, and thus the Ether itself is conscious 
static potential. In other words, the conscious and the so-called 
physical are blended, although is the secondary states of matter 
consciousness is dormant, devitalized or latent. it is, therefore, 
important to emphasize that the Primary Force is a conscious force, 
otherwise certain of the phenomena in the Primary Physics would not 
be understood. The Primary Force nevertheless produces the secondary 
forces, but these are then in a devitalized state, e.g. electricity 
and magnetism, devitalized through the apparatus employed.

What may be termed the physical sequence here is:

                                  Space as such.

                                  (arrow pointing down)

                    Synthesis of Space is Carbon Energy (Ether).
          The polarization of this releases Heat and Cold stress.
              Heat stress contains the life force (biomagnetism) and 
Cold                       stress prepares it.

It is therefore, quite incorrect to designate Life as "a state of 
matter"; it is what it originated from, that is,, consciousness and 
the corresponding energy adhering thereto-it is thus a condition of 
the energies with form.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:41:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10695;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:38:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:38:48 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100302b8990fe11720 [63.233.225.85]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020219114756.24792A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020219114756.24792A-100000 eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:36:45 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"g8TH3.0.oc2.bT1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46202
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>  Steven Lajoie posted;
>>
>>  >
>>  >  > Carl Sagan, in his show Cosmos,  which I nicknamed Cosmic B S, used
>>  >>  to go on about how the solar system condensed out of a dust cloud.
>>  >>  Then there was this pool of water on the earth with some naturally
>>  >>  occurring amino acids and phosphate salts, and then lightning struck.
>>  >>  That's the idiot liberal alternative to Creation Science.
>>  >
>>  >Yes. That "idiot liberal alternative" has been recreated in the
>>  >lab, as stated in the Cosmos series states.
>>
>>  What has been recreated in the lab? The production of life from non
>>  living materials, or the solar system?
>
>Material that should have existed on the primordial earth was put into a
>flask and exposed to similar conditions.
>
>The material necessary for the formation of DNA was created. Evolutionary
>selection can work on this DNA.

IMHO, it is a long way from that to functioning life. As I mentioned 
in my tyrade against Parksie, Some of us believe that life is not a 
physical phenomena but an energy phenomena. This means that the 
physical body is surrounded, permeated and controlled by an energy 
field. You can make changes to the physical body by making changes to 
the energy field. This is the basis of the energy healing regimens, 
Reike, acupuncture and homeopathy. Now you can dismiss this as random 
chance, or the placebo effect as Parksie does. OTOH, I had water on 
my elbow go away through the use of a homeopathic preparation, but 
I'm a believer.
>
>
>>  By the way, I'm surprised that someone made a C D version of Cosmic B
>>  S which was even more political than the show. The whole thing was
>>  political to begin with.
>
>Yes, at times it was political. The revised version is much more so.

Well, that figures, they are true believers in what they are promoting too.


>


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:59:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16848;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:47:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:47:48 -0800
Message-ID: <3C741981.FC56CDA3 mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:47:45 -0500
From: sno <sno2 mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220124224.12714A-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"UjGKk1.0.974.4c1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46203
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


I have oftened wondered if "green" 
people use rail transportation, where
available, for long distance tranportation
rather then airplanes or cars....

If I remember correctly, this is more
efficient then other mechanical means
of transportation....why are they not
lobbying for it....rail.....

They are also not lobbying for the use
of bamboo in paper manufacture....is a
direct replacement for pulp wood...grows
faster and is a better fiber then wood 
pulp....bamboo can be grown on from one
twentieth to one fifth the land that is 
presently being used for pulp trees....
the amount of land depends on area of the
country....and yes bamboo can be grown in
areas that have winter temperatures below
freezing....

What I am trying to point out is there are a
number of things that could be done without
disrupting our economy by immediately doing
things like hybrid cars...or converting to 
hydrogen.....etc.....

It often appears that these people are 
"anti machines" or "anti devlopement"
or "anti corporations"....they should 
remember that a socialized economy, is
often a non efficient economy and a 
poluting one.....russia has shown that 
government planning does not work and
therefor lobbying for laws to fix things
usually has unintended bad consequences
...because human beings, most of the time, 
will do whatthey feel is beneficial to 
them.....no matter what the government says
...capitalist economies tend to make 
things beneficial to people....
and to corporations....

thank you for listening to my thoughts....

steve opelc

Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> >
> > >Global temperatures have increased since the 1960s. The reason for it is
> > >disputed, not the fact that the temperature increase exist. You cannot
> > >reason, "it warmed, ergo CO2 is the cause".
> >
> > I did not say that. My very next sentence, which you quoted, concedes that
> > we cannot make that conclusion -- although we cannot dismiss it by any
> > means. Please do not be argumentative to no purpose.
> 
> Actually, I didn't say you said that, if you want to be that percise.
> :-) You might even read into what I said that I was agreeing with you.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:14:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30162;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:11:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:11:06 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: God, Pioneer 10 slowdown and Negative energy
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:10:16 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <h4787uolu44s1rpd1csgnckgi9rdjl7n5r 4ax.com>
References: <20020220190757.82376.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com> <00f501c1ba49$8ebfd4c0$8837fea9@computer>
In-Reply-To: <00f501c1ba49$8ebfd4c0$8837fea9 computer>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA30030
Resent-Message-ID: <"LHF6X3.0.8N7.ux1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46205
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:02:42 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>Because of their past glaring billion$ debacles and embarrassment with Hubble,
>etc. they are on very shaky ground vis-a-vis "missing the obvious." I think you
>can be damn sure that they have covered ALL of the standard and most of the
>arcane solutions before letting this cat out of the bag...
[snip]
I don't think there's any way they could. Pioneer 10 is travelling
through uncharted territory, so they couldn't possibly know the actual
density of space dust, unless it has instrumentation to measure this,
even so a slight error in that measurement might account for the very
small deviation detected.
Actually I would be surprised if they had taken the eddy current braking
effect due to the sun's magnetic field into account (as suggested by
Charles).
Another unknown is the total mass of the asteroid belt, and it's
consequent gravitational effect once the satellite is outside the belt.
Add to this the unknown cumulative effect of the solar system's moons (I
don't think we actually know the masses of all of them, though I could
be wrong).
I am assuming here that they actually took into account the
gravitational fields of all the planets.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:14:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31830;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:14:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:14:09 -0800
Message-ID: <003101c1ba74$e2987720$0d79ccd1 asus>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <001c01c1b9b0$09654920$6501a8c0 xpkitty> <3C73D741.338C4169@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:11:15 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
Resent-Message-ID: <"Lhu6o1.0.Dn7.n-1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46206
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In terms of this debate, which will not be settled here, much insight might
come from the realization that it is not the creation vs. evolution
controversy per se, but the consequences of the extremes. If Darwin is right
then......, or of there is Special Creation, then ......

It is the unspoken consequences which fuels the debate. It can lead to who
get to set the rules and write the checks. Who as Authority? The anointed
King or Parliament? What is taught in schools? What moral authority stems
the pressure of passion?

Mike Carrell




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:14:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28163;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:06:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:06:41 -0800
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:59:11 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <017101c1ba59$d44916e0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C73E463.5B016D5A bellsouth.net> <003e01c1ba47$0727fcb0$fb1e010a@ARCPU531>
 <3C73FEB1.F544F57A bellsouth.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"jtwEh.0.ut6.nt1Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46204
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

For those who may want to knock heads with people that really care
(religiously) about this issue,  there is a dedicated thread:

http://www.superstringtheory.com/forum/warmboard/index2.html

Here are some old archives

http://www.superstringtheory.com/forum/warmboard/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:20:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02858;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:20:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:20:19 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:19:39 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <12887uctnja5o63svmsfedmg5ftb6ke3t5 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com> <3C73E463.5B016D5A@bellsouth.net> <003e01c1ba47$0727fcb0$fb1e010a@ARCPU531>
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1ba47$0727fcb0$fb1e010a ARCPU531>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA02785
Resent-Message-ID: <"cSHYP3.0.ai.Z42Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46207
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Craig Haynie's message of Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:44:36 -0000:
Hi,
[snip]

>> With a significant contribution by methane as a byproduct of
>> celluose digestion in termites and bovine.  McDonalds hits us
>> with a double whammy in order to satiate our desire for the
>> hamburger when they tear down rainforests for grazing land for
>> cattle in S. America.
>>
>> "Eat Mor Chikin!"
>
>This is an inaccuracy which needs to be challenged; even though I'm not yet
>convinced that global warming is even occurring. However, the methane which
>is a byproduct of celluose digestion is not a contributor to global warming
>because the carbon which is being recycled through this process, came from
>the environment initially. 
[snip]
Actually this is based on an error. You make the assumption that all
carbon is equal. It isn't. The carbon that was taken from the atmosphere
by plants was in the form of CO2. However when returned as methane the
greenhouse effect is much stronger for the same amount of carbon (though
it doesn't last as long).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:42:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14215;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:41:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:41:06 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:40:27 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <ag887ug31qi3ko4jvema31klog80vvle4o 4ax.com>
References: <v01530501b8999cb8d6bc [12.21.209.87]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b8999cb8d6bc [12.21.209.87]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA14138
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y0rHo1.0.0U3.2O2Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46209
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:12:28
-0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>What excess energy??   The D is formed by p + n -> D + 2.22 Mev.   The bond
>represents an energy hole.  If you can cause the p and n to separate, then
>you can get another shot of 2.22 MeV out of them by recombining.  This is
>the great mystery of stripping reactions which can ostensibly pull the
>neutron out of the D by a mere 10 - 20 keV collision.  

This is only a mystery if one ignores the fact that the stripping only
happens when one of the two nucleons is absorbed by another nucleus.
The absorption reaction must supply the 2.2 MeV required to split the
deuteron. For most other nuclei, absorbtion of a proton or neutron
yields about 5-10 MeV, more than enough to compensate for the 2.2 MeV
deuteron binding energy.

That the energy can be so "low" is a consequence of the fact the
deuterium contains only one positive charge, ensuring that it is easier
to get it close enough to another nucleus than would be the case with
another element (a possible substitute might be Be9, but the 4 times
greater charge on the Be9 nucleus implies kinetic energy requirements on
the order of 40-80 keV).

BTW 10 keV might be considered "low" energy by some, but it represents a
temperature of 77 million K. This puts it in the hot fusion arena, so
that all hot fusion *might as well be* considered to be "stripping".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:43:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12950;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:38:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:38:41 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220162408.03a9d2a0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:38:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220124224.12714A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220150631.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"3ecR12.0._93.lL2Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46208
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > The fact that CO2 occurs naturally does not preclude its being pollution.
>
>Well, there is an odd concept.

No, it is not a bit odd. Any textbook on ecology will list many similar 
examples, both natural and man made. Oxygen in river water, or ozone at 
ground level, for example.


>If CO2 is not causing Global Warming, and there is no rational science
>that says that it is . .

There is a great deal of rational science that says it is. The science may 
be wrong, but you are an extremist to deny that it exists or has any 
possible validity. When experts spend years studying a problem and publish 
careful conclusions, you should not dismiss them out of hand, the way 
Robert Park and the know-it-all brigades dismiss cold fusion scientists. If 
cold fusion teaches us anything it is that experts are right and people who 
do not know the details should be cautious when evaluating complex 
scientific issues and questions.


>, then what are these deleterious effects? Plants grow faster?

Exactly. That would be catastrophic. We have already lost millions of acres 
in Georgia and the surrounding states to kudzu and other fast-growing 
imported species. The last thing we need is more rampant plant growth. I am 
sure there would be other deleterious effects.


> > We could easily
> > reduce CO2 at a moderate pace. It would cost nothing.
>
>1) It would cost billions. You're talking about shutting down entire
>industries like the auto industry . . .

No one is talking about shutting down anything. I'm talking about a gradual 
transition. The factories must be rebuilt and retooled eventually. Either 
U.S. manufacturers will do it at a profit, or when a crisis hits the 
Japanese will take away a large chunk of their business.


>2) Since the proposed treaty limits US production of CO2 and allows
>massive production of CO2 by other countries, what's the point?

The point is that the U.S. causes more pollution per capita, and it has far 
better R&D capabilities, so it can pioneer CO2 reduction technology and 
later sell it at a profit to other countries. China cannot be expected to 
develop advanced pollution control. They are so behind, they still 
manufacture piston steam engines. The U.S. is behind our commercial rivals 
but ahead of China. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/contents.html

Intensity:

Russia 72,133 Btu per dollar of GDP
China 34,514 Btu/$
Turkey 14,850 Btu/$
U.S. 12,638 Btu/$
Italy 6,700 Btu/$
Japan 6,523 Btu/$


>I am curious why you equate anything good for the fossile fuel interest as 
>being a moral "bad" . . .

Because fossil fuel is filthy, obsolete, inefficient, outrageously 
overpriced, it paid for worst terrorist attack in history, it supports 
ruthless dictators who despise the U.S., and coal extraction creates a 
wastelands out of some of the beautiful country in North America. That is 
morally "bad," if anything is.


>, or that other people are
>motivated to do things for the sake of the oil companies.

Gee, if Halliburton paid me $36 million I might be motivated to do things 
for them. Yes, I suspect money has something to do with people's 
motivations. See the V.P.'s tax returns:

http://www.tax.org/THP/Presidential/cheneytaxreturn.pdf


>I don't care for the oil companies, but I don't want to drive them out of
>business for the sake of doing so, either.

I do! I would drive them out of business in a heartbeat, if I could. I may 
yet do it with cold fusion. The oil companies and the DoE richly deserve to 
be driven out of business, along with Iraq, Iran, and some other countries. 
I would be less happy to destroy Mexico and Venezuela, but it can't be 
helped. We will probably have to offer them foreign aid. It will cost only 
a fraction of the money we save from not buying oil and coal.


>There are 6 billion people on this planet. Seems to me that if your going
>to shut down all human activity that is SUSPECTED of causing harm . . .

No one said it must be "shut down" immediately. It should be phased out 
gradually, as conventional replacements and improvements come along. Now, 
if cold fusion emerges it WILL be shut down immediately. Every fossil fuel 
company on earth will be bankrupt within ten years, and the distribution 
infrastructure will be abandoned in place. The taxpayers will probably have 
to pick up the tab to rescue the workers & retirees, and clean up the mess. 
Still, that would be cheaper than continuing to shell out a fortune for 
fossil fuel.


>. . . to the enviroment, then you are dooming them to live in the stone 
>age and forcing a reduction in population where 99.9% of them must die off.

What nonsense! Conventional alternative energy could supply far more energy 
than we presently consume, with orders of magnitude less pollution, at a 
lower cost per megajoule. The idea that we must choose  fossil fuel or 
starvation is pure propaganda. It is a sort of garbage the White House 
peddles to frighten taxpayers and justify huge giveaways of tax money to 
the fossil fuel industry, and wars fought on their behalf. The whole nation 
is endangered by countries like Iraq, which the president says is building 
nuclear weapons. We could impoverish them in a few years but reducing oil 
consumption. Heck, we could SELL oil on the world market.


>As for hybrid motors, I see no conspiracy to prevent them from the market.

You are not looking very hard. The Wall Street Journal is mainly 
pro-business, but it described the conspiracy in a cynical article. The 
U.S. makers are lobbying Congress to penalize the Japanese for developing 
high efficiency automobiles, but raising CAFE standards a fixed percent for 
all fleets. See: W. S. J., "Evasive Maneuvers, Detroit Again Tries To Dodge 
Pressures For a 'Greener' Fleet," Jeffrey Ball, 1/29/2002


>If they work, bring them on. All too often technical problems are
>interpreted as conspiracies.

If they work, stop them! Ask Congress to pull a dirty trick, derail free 
market competition, alarm the public with false claims in op-ed articles in 
the Atlanta Journal (Feb. 18) . . . The technical problems were solved in 
1906. If American companies really are so incompetent they cannot build 
modern hybrid engines five years after the Japanese did, and 96 years after 
the technology was invented, maybe they should purchase the engines from 
the Japanese. The Japanese government might take pity and extend industrial 
development assistance to Ford and GM. It would be cheaper than buying oil 
from Saddam Hussein, and Toyota will not use the profits to build nuclear 
bombs and blow us up.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 14:59:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22629;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:55:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:55:31 -0800
Reply-To: <charris amano.com>
From: "Cliff Harris" <charris amano.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:39:18 -0800
Message-ID: <000b01c1ba35$86665150$370e10ac cal042>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"VQ-p83.0.JX5.Xb2Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46210
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Who created God?


**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
                    MIS Amano.com

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept 
              for the presence of computer viruses.

**********************************************************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 15:15:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31962;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:12:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:12:44 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220174213.03abbd18 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:46:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: McDonald's and rain forests
In-Reply-To: <3C741555.93A82CF5 bellsouth.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220110906.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020220141546.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020220153823.00af4200 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"bYXwL2.0.9p7.hr2Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46211
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Terry Blanton wrote:

>When was the last time you visited the World of Coca-Cola
>downtown?

Never been there!


>   Last time I was there, about 2 years ago, they were
>actually denying the ingredient contrary to the historical
>references.  I was flabbergasted.

That is amazing. Perhaps it was just an uneducated spokesperson?


>I know they had coke in coke.  Some people learned that you could
>precipitate the drug from solution with baking soda.

Not after 1901. You would have to precipitate hundreds of bottles to get 
enough for one dose. I think it's highly unlikely that it has causing 
addictions since 1901.


>Their web page is mute on the subject.

So it is. A history of the company I read years ago said they are reticent 
to discuss the subject. That's understandable.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 15:15:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32025;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:12:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:12:52 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220174656.03aab580 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:11:58 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Democrats equally at fault
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"pS0-a2.0.8p7.ir2Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46212
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have been railing against the administration's energy policies -- and 
only incidentally their global warming policy. I should add that the 
previous administration did nothing to improve efficiency, competitiveness 
or the CAFE standards. Democrats in Congress are as much to blame for the 
mess as Republicans. The Republican V.P. was paid a fortune by the oil 
industry. The Democratic V.P. paid lid service to environmentalism and 
efficiency while he did NOTHING. It is hard to say which is more 
reprehensible. At least Cheney is not a hypocrite.

Rumor has it that years ago Gore was given a package of scientific papers 
and materials describing cold fusion, sent to him by a famous person he 
could not ignore. He supposedly looked at it for a while, and then said, 
"this is too hot for me," meaning too controversial. I do not know whether 
this is true, but it sounds likely, and it would be in character for Gore 
or any other modern politician.

I doubt there is an organized, high-level active conspiracy to suppress 
cold fusion. Martin Fleischmann thinks there may be, and he is a smart 
cookie. He may be right, but I doubt it. On the other hand I'm sure no 
politician or corporation would openly advocate research, and I know that 
Amoco and others have suppressed their own positive experimental results. I 
have a copy of their report, stamped "SECRET," and I talked to one of the 
researchers for a couple of hours. The APS, the DoE and the hot fusion 
research lobbyists often go out of their way to denigrate cold fusion. They 
have not forgotten it! They do not believe it, but they half believe it, 
and fear it . . . as they should! If it ever emerges they will be in very 
deep trouble.

If there is a conspiracy it is opportunistic, and played out overtly in 
public, like the conspiracy the automobile manufacturers have launched to 
stifle innovation and punish their Japanese rivals for making better 
machinery. I would not call that "conspiracy." It is politics, as old as 
civilization.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 15:36:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11480;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:35:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:35:40 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:35:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <3C741981.FC56CDA3 mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220124224.12714A-100000 eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"v1-g_.0.1p2.AB3Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46213
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

sno wrote:

>I have oftened wondered if "green" people use rail transportation, where
>available . . .

I do, and the "green" people I know do. Apart from any concerns about the 
environment, I love trains. They are the only relaxing, enjoyable way to 
travel. I have never driven a car in Europe or Japan.


>, for long distance tranportation rather then airplanes or cars....

It is not practical in North America, except in the Boston - Washington 
corridor.


>If I remember correctly, this is more efficient then other mechanical 
>means of transportation....why are they not
>lobbying for it....rail.....

It is efficient, and they do lobby for it, but it has limited application. 
Actually, advanced aircraft are remarkably efficient per passenger mile. 
Better than cars, but most sources say that modern railroads still beat 
airplanes. Here is one that disagrees:

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid342.php


>They are also not lobbying for the use of bamboo in paper 
>manufacture....is a direct replacement for pulp wood...

How well does it recycle?

Hemp is another promising material. Unfortunately, it is being blocked in 
the U.S. by foolish opponents who think it might be used as a form of 
marijuana. This is like thinking you can get a cocaine high from Coca-Cola. 
As I said before, you would have to drink hundreds of bottles!


>It often appears that these people are
>"anti machines" or "anti devlopement"
>or "anti corporations"....

Some of these people are, but not others. You cannot generalize. Take 
Arthur C. Clarke. He is very much in favor of machines, development, 
neutral about corporations, and passionately "green" -- thirty years ahead 
of the mainstream. Read "Profiles of the Future."


>they should  remember that a socialized economy, is
>often a non efficient economy and a  poluting one.....

Very few environmentalists are socialists or communists. In fact, I would 
say most of them are more in favor of free market competition than GM, 
Ford, Exxon, or the administration -- judging by their opposition to higher 
CAFE standards. Many so-called conservatives who oppose environmentalism 
say they favor capitalism, yet they fight wind power, and they throw 
billions of dollars in government subsidies and tax breaks to nuclear 
fission, coal and other corrupt, inefficient industries. What they really 
favor is Big Money. A true "conservative" wants to conserve things, such as 
nature and resources. I am a conservative and conservationist.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 15:53:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25907;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:52:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:52:38 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:52:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Democrats equally at fault
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220174656.03aab580 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220154413.25073A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"tILe_1.0.cK6.6R3Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46214
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I have been railing against the administration's energy policies -- and 
> only incidentally their global warming policy. I should add that the 
> previous administration did nothing to improve efficiency, competitiveness 
> or the CAFE standards. Democrats in Congress are as much to blame for the 
> mess as Republicans. The Republican V.P. was paid a fortune by the oil 
> industry. The Democratic V.P. paid lid service to environmentalism and 
> efficiency while he did NOTHING. It is hard to say which is more 
> reprehensible. At least Cheney is not a hypocrite.

I wouldn't be so hard on the Democrats. They blew their wad on trying to
get socialized health care passed. Then they had a Republican congress the
remainder of the 6 years, half of that the president had to spend his
political favors just to keep from being impeached and thrown out of
office. 
 
> Rumor has it that years ago Gore was given a package of scientific papers 
> and materials describing cold fusion, sent to him by a famous person he 
> could not ignore. He supposedly looked at it for a while, and then said, 
> "this is too hot for me," meaning too controversial. I do not know whether 
> this is true, but it sounds likely, and it would be in character for Gore 
> or any other modern politician.

Really? I thought it was Clinton who was given the papers, and I never
heard what he thought about it and he left office so it became moot. 

> I doubt there is an organized, high-level active conspiracy to suppress 
> cold fusion. Martin Fleischmann thinks there may be, and he is a smart 
> cookie. He may be right, but I doubt it. 

He's right. From reading the lituerature, I don't see how the government
could have missed discovering cold fusion back in 1968, when they were
experimenting with deuterated metals for use as modulators in nuclear
reactors.  

> On the other hand I'm sure no 
> politician or corporation would openly advocate research, and I know that 
> Amoco and others have suppressed their own positive experimental results. I 
> have a copy of their report, stamped "SECRET," and I talked to one of the 
> researchers for a couple of hours. The APS, the DoE and the hot fusion 
> research lobbyists often go out of their way to denigrate cold fusion. They 
> have not forgotten it! They do not believe it, but they half believe it, 
> and fear it . . . as they should! If it ever emerges they will be in very 
> deep trouble.

We will all be in deep trouble, and I'd rather we drop cold fusion as a
subject of conversation. It scares the shit out of me, what with these
terrorist and all.

> If there is a conspiracy it is opportunistic, and played out overtly in 
> public, like the conspiracy the automobile manufacturers have launched to 
> stifle innovation and punish their Japanese rivals for making better 
> machinery. I would not call that "conspiracy." It is politics, as old as 
> civilization.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 15:55:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27776;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:55:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:55:27 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:55:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220155300.25073B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"V-m0-1.0.pn6.kT3Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46215
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


I think we should let natural economic forces make trains the new mode of
transperation. Air travel is dying out. 

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> sno wrote:
> 
> >I have oftened wondered if "green" people use rail transportation, where
> >available . . .
> 
> I do, and the "green" people I know do. Apart from any concerns about the 
> environment, I love trains. They are the only relaxing, enjoyable way to 
> travel. I have never driven a car in Europe or Japan.
> 
> >They are also not lobbying for the use of bamboo in paper 
> >manufacture....is a direct replacement for pulp wood...
> 
> How well does it recycle?

Hopefully not at all. I just had this wonderful idea of starting a bamboo
farm after I get laid off. :-) 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 16:32:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11842;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:30:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:30:41 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Stronger evidence for global warming
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:30:34 -0800
Message-ID: <000101c1ba6e$fa3f5cf0$6501a8c0 xpkitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"kXH9L2.0.vu2.m-3Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46216
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Oh, sure, I am going to take the train to the grocery store, the post
office, and the bar.
I forgot about the fact there is steel rails running right by my house.
Oh, and when I take the train, if there is no tracks I have to walk, take a
cab, or the bus.

Trains are not practical even for long distance travel. Cars, trucks and
planes ( general aviation not commercial ). Trains are only profitable when
used for shipping bulk freight long distances.
If you want to go live in a Socialist country where there is nothing but
government run transportation, go live there, don't make all those around
you suffer for your ideals.

Global warming has never caused by man . Mankind has a Negligible effect in
the production of any gases.
Chlorofluorocarbons released by man haven't even had enough time to get into
the upper atmosphere . It takes 75 years to circulate lower atmosphere with
the air up around the Ozone layer. Besides the ozone itself is an unstable
molecule, and spontaneously decay's. If there wasn't any ultraviolet in the
solar spectrum, we wouldn't have any Ozone. Chicken and egg,
What came first Ozone, or UV ?
 The world warms up and cools off according to the solar energy received by
the Sun. Mankind has a Negligible effect.
More greenhouse gases were given off by Mt. Pinitubo than mankind has
created at our current industrial level for a 1000 years. The average
"little" volcanic explosion creates more energy and heat than a country does
in a year, and multiple amounts of gases.
The Oceans absorb, precipitate and store Methane and CO2 as Calthrates,
distribute solar thermal energy as heat.

It would take man approx 27,000,000,000,000,000 heat calories to raise the
temperature of 1 cubic mile of water 1 degree. That's 540 Billion BTU !.
It would take 7.7 billion people consuming 3500 calories of food each to put
off that much heat.
Yet the sun puts out Trillions times more than that to be intercepted by the
earth !.

Mankind indeed is very very tiny. Insects put out more heat, CO2 and Methane
than man does.

Get real.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 3:36 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming

sno wrote:

>I have oftened wondered if "green" people use rail transportation, where
>available . . .

I do, and the "green" people I know do. Apart from any concerns about the
environment, I love trains. They are the only relaxing, enjoyable way to
travel. I have never driven a car in Europe or Japan.


>, for long distance tranportation rather then airplanes or cars....

It is not practical in North America, except in the Boston - Washington
corridor.


>If I remember correctly, this is more efficient then other mechanical
>means of transportation....why are they not
>lobbying for it....rail.....

It is efficient, and they do lobby for it, but it has limited application.
Actually, advanced aircraft are remarkably efficient per passenger mile.
Better than cars, but most sources say that modern railroads still beat
airplanes. Here is one that disagrees:

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid342.php


>They are also not lobbying for the use of bamboo in paper
>manufacture....is a direct replacement for pulp wood...

How well does it recycle?

Hemp is another promising material. Unfortunately, it is being blocked in
the U.S. by foolish opponents who think it might be used as a form of
marijuana. This is like thinking you can get a cocaine high from Coca-Cola.
As I said before, you would have to drink hundreds of bottles!


>It often appears that these people are
>"anti machines" or "anti devlopement"
>or "anti corporations"....

Some of these people are, but not others. You cannot generalize. Take
Arthur C. Clarke. He is very much in favor of machines, development,
neutral about corporations, and passionately "green" -- thirty years ahead
of the mainstream. Read "Profiles of the Future."


>they should  remember that a socialized economy, is
>often a non efficient economy and a  poluting one.....

Very few environmentalists are socialists or communists. In fact, I would
say most of them are more in favor of free market competition than GM,
Ford, Exxon, or the administration -- judging by their opposition to higher
CAFE standards. Many so-called conservatives who oppose environmentalism
say they favor capitalism, yet they fight wind power, and they throw
billions of dollars in government subsidies and tax breaks to nuclear
fission, coal and other corrupt, inefficient industries. What they really
favor is Big Money. A true "conservative" wants to conserve things, such as
nature and resources. I am a conservative and conservationist.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 16:57:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21870;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:51:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:51:47 -0800
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:44:08 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <01ec01c1ba70$df893820$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530501b8999cb8d6bc [12.21.209.87]>
 <ag887ug31qi3ko4jvema31klog80vvle4o 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"8mlMz3.0.cL5.YI4Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46217
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> This is only a mystery if one ignores the fact that the stripping
only
> happens when one of the two nucleons is absorbed by another nucleus.
> The absorption reaction must supply the 2.2 MeV required to split
the
> deuteron. For most other nuclei, absorbtion of a proton or neutron
> yields about 5-10 MeV, more than enough to compensate for the 2.2
MeV
> deuteron binding energy.

Two points. First, depending on the varieity of stripping, one of the
two nucleons is not always absorbed by the target. In fact, in the
case of "spallation stripping," where there is an actual photon
mediated exchange, it is rare that either particle is absorbed. But
spallation is a higher energy (thermal) form of stripping, and we are
talking about non-thermal stripping in regard to having much relevance
for CF.

Second, in re: "For most other nuclei, absorbtion of a proton or
neutron yields about 5-10 MeV, more than enough to compensate for the
2.2 MeV deuteron binding energy." Yes but the delay between the
nucleon absorbtion and the (normal) alpha emission which unloads the
energy from the target can be hours or weeks away. It the energy were
borrowed, i.e. QM "time shifting" the transfer would have to be
instantaneous, and this is sometimes not the case - but you are
correct that at certain D polariztion levels,  "borrowed" energy
appears to be the major mechanism for breaking the bond.

The really interesting question in terms of maximizing the yield and
minimizing the threshold input is whether or not the QM stripping
reaction can be optimized so that there is no immediate absorption,
ala spallation, but where there is the lower energy input, ala QM
stripping.  Gow's magnetron (crossed fields) may be a  a way to do
this, but it is probably still not close to OU.

> That the energy can be so "low" is a consequence of the fact the
> deuterium contains only one positive charge, ensuring that it is
easier
> to get it close enough to another nucleus than would be the case
with
> another element

Maybe, but remember that there is a constant pion exchange going on
between the two baryons, so that the positive end is constantly
see-sawing, even when the nucleus is magnetically polarized and
doesn't rotate. When it is electrically polarized, however, the pion
exchange may be effectively lowered, but I don't have an actual
reference for that being the case.

Equally important. or perhaps more so, is the variable bond width and
the implications that fact has for pion exchange and QM wierdness. I
think that is what Horace is trying to pin down in terms of exact
dimensions. If memory serves, the bond width is about equal to the
average diameter of either nucleon, which is quite amazing in its own
right.

> greater charge on the Be9 nucleus implies kinetic energy
requirements on
> the order of 40-80 keV).

AFAIK low energy non-thermal stipping is limited solely to deuterium.
It doesn't even apply to tritium. Be is a good target for deuteron QM
stripping and supplies copious (n,2n) neutrons as a moderator, but the
main point of low energy stripping is that kinetic energy is
relatively unimportant.

> BTW 10 keV might be considered "low" energy by some, but it
represents a
> temperature of 77 million K. This puts it in the hot fusion arena,
so
> that all hot fusion *might as well be* considered to be "stripping".

Stripping has been observed in plasmas of less than I ev, that's
right, less than one electron volt, and even disappears when the the
plama gets too hot. It is a *non-thermal* reaction that depends on
either EM or spin interaction. The voltage potential is necessary only
to achieve polariztion and some minimal degree of transport.

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 17:08:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28523;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:04:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:04:02 -0800
Message-ID: <3C74477E.A6199044 mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:03:58 -0500
From: sno <sno2 mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220124224.12714A-100000 eskimo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y6ZSX1.0.Rz6.1U4Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46218
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> sno wrote:
> 
> >I have oftened wondered if "green" people use rail transportation, where
> >available . . .
> 
> I do, and the "green" people I know do. Apart from any concerns about the
> environment, I love trains. They are the only relaxing, enjoyable way to
> travel. I have never driven a car in Europe or Japan.

That is why I know about...have traveled all over world on
trains....
should have car trains like they do in Europe...instead of 
Amtrak as is set up here....get more cars off the road by
giving alternate more efficient means of travel...and let
them still use their cars when they get to destination... 

> >, for long distance tranportation rather then airplanes or cars....
> 
> It is not practical in North America, except in the Boston - Washington
> corridor.

Could be practical...one of the reasons we have such a 
welfare load is their are not enough well paying jobs in
the states for one worker per family...is reason have 
so many two worker families now....should have something
like had during depression....should never have gotten
rid of.....civilian conservation corp....use the government
as employer of last resort...use people to fix rail lines
...work in fixing up parks....etc.....see above about 
car trains to make train travel more practical... 

> Actually, advanced aircraft are remarkably efficient per passenger mile.
> Better than cars, but most sources say that modern railroads still beat
> airplanes. Here is one that disagrees:
> http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid342.php
 
> >They are also not lobbying for the use of bamboo in paper
> >manufacture....is a direct replacement for pulp wood...
> 
> How well does it recycle?

Same as wood chips....once is in paper and in landfill lasts
almost forever.....carbon is tied up....also land now used
for growing trees for wood pulp could be used for growing
other type trees then pulp trees....people should encourage
less use of plastics and replace with wood where possible...
a wood item can last for hundreds of years...tieing up
carbon..."greens" should encourage cutting of trees and
building with them....old trees do not use as much carbon
as growing trees....
 
> Hemp is another promising material. Unfortunately, it is being blocked in
> the U.S. by foolish opponents who think it might be used as a form of

Bamboo grows as fast as hemp..equal amount of fiber per 
acre..and can be grown on marginal land where hemp will not
grow...also can be grown over wider temperature range....
so has some advantages over hemp....one big one is would not
have to change present laws...<g>..... 
> 

> Some of these people are, but not others. You cannot generalize. Take
> Arthur C. Clarke. He is very much in favor of machines, development,
> neutral about corporations, and passionately "green" -- thirty years ahead

agree...but the ones you are talking about are the 
"thinking greens"....not the ones that follow the
propaganda from green organizations....
> 
> Very few environmentalists are socialists or communists. In fact, I would
> say most of them are more in favor of free market competition than GM,

Agree, not on purpose...but they feel that laws will fix
things....
which I do not think they will..government control is
definition
of socialism/communism .......do not have solution to 
big corp paying for laws to reduce competition,...which is
what they are doing....

thank you for listening to my thoughts....steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 17:10:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA29915;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:06:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:06:59 -0800
Message-ID: <3C74483D.939886B mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:07:09 -0500
From: sno <sno2 mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220155300.25073B-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"k19zm1.0.LJ7.oW4Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46219
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Problem is there is no big market for it
in states...and timber companies are trying
to keep it secret...<g>

steve

Stephen Lajoie w> 
> I think we should let natural economic forces make trains the new mode of
> transperation. Air travel is dying out.
> 
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > sno wrote:
> >
> > >I have oftened wondered if "green" people use rail transportation, where
> > >available . . .
> >
> > I do, and the "green" people I know do. Apart from any concerns about the
> > environment, I love trains. They are the only relaxing, enjoyable way to
> > travel. I have never driven a car in Europe or Japan.
> >
> > >They are also not lobbying for the use of bamboo in paper
> > >manufacture....is a direct replacement for pulp wood...
> >
> > How well does it recycle?
> 
> Hopefully not at all. I just had this wonderful idea of starting a bamboo
> farm after I get laid off. :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 17:53:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21043;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:51:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:51:20 -0800
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:59:21 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Consumption (SHC)
In-Reply-To: <v01530503b899b5d3bc99 [12.21.209.87]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020220205753.11282E-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"lZ-qt2.0.i85.OA5Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46220
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Eating way too much food for unknown reasons.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 19:46:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11925;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:43:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:43:33 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220213823.00a1fd90 pop.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:51:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: God, Pioneer 10 slowdown and Negative energy
In-Reply-To: <00f501c1ba49$8ebfd4c0$8837fea9 computer>
References: <20020220190757.82376.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"1VGW-3.0.Ew2.bp6Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46221
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:02 PM 2/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
>
> > Second is the all failing error known as zero.  For example.
> > If you launch a spacecraft into the solar system it is easy to
> > assume that the near zero friction is actually zero.
>
>You aren't reallt so naive to think that NASA has assumed zero friction 
>are you?
>

Yes...   But who is really naive here?  Look at NASA performance back 30 
and 40 years and compare it to the last 20...  last 10  and last 5

It seems to all be falling in the crapper

When I was a kid they could do no wrong.  They even soft landed a robot 
craft on Mars...  (using only a minute fraction of the automation know how 
available today) Now that automation technology is so much "better" all we 
can seem to do is crash into Mars.  Not once mind you but twice in a row.

I am still not ruling out software errors.


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 20 20:22:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25991;
	Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:15:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:15:36 -0800
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:15:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Democrats equally at fault
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B899DE74.1590%editor infinite-energy.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220154413.25073A-100000 eskimo.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA25929
Resent-Message-ID: <"85Od61.0.wL6.eH7Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46222
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 2/20/02 3:52 PM, "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com> wrote:

>> Rumor has it that years ago Gore was given a package of scientific papers
>> and materials describing cold fusion, sent to him by a famous person he
>> could not ignore. He supposedly looked at it for a while, and then said,
>> "this is too hot for me," meaning too controversial. I do not know whether
>> this is true, but it sounds likely, and it would be in character for Gore
>> or any other modern politician.
> 
> Really? I thought it was Clinton who was given the papers, and I never
> heard what he thought about it and he left office so it became moot.

To straighten out the record, the following is a portion of my Memorandum to
the White House (REQUESTED BY IT  Feb, 2000 via direct telephone call to
Eugene Mallove), posted on the Infinite Energy website
www.infinite-energy.com:

*****
Recent events:  Senator John McCain, running in the New Hampshire primary
for the Republican presidential nomination,  agreed to be briefed on cold
fusion. He kept his word. Within a week of his promise, he sent a top aide
to our offices at the Bow Technologies Center. He received briefing
materials that were  to be handed to the Senator.  Thus, Senator McCain
became the very first major party presidential candidate in history to
receive a high-level briefing about cold fusion. This briefing occurred
before he won the February 1 New Hampshire Republican primary by a large
margin over Governor Bush of Texas and others.

"I later sought to ask Vice President Al Gore, while he was campaigning in
Concord, New Hampshire for the Democratic Presidential nomination, whether
he too would agree to a cold fusion briefing. On January 13, I attended a
Gore question-and-answer meeting at Temple Beth Jacob in Concord, but was
unable to ask him the question ‹ the Vice President was very long in
responding to so many of the other questions that time simply ran out. This
was the same venue in which eight years earlier, almost to the day, I had
asked you about cold fusion when you were a candidate, Mr. President! You
seemed to know  something about it, because you said that some Arkansas
scientists had been ³stonewalled² on cold fusion by the DOE. [[ NOTE TO
VORTEX: I have the audio recording of this 1992 Clinton response!]] In all
probability they were.

As has been reported in Infinite Energy,  it is our understanding that in
the early 1990s Vice President Gore shied away from a cold fusion briefing
by qualified scientists, after being urged to do so by a colleague at Apple
Computer Corporation.  The Vice President then reportedly stated that the
topic was ³too controversial, too complex ‹ give it to the science advisor.²

 With your encouragement, we hope that the Vice President will now be more
open to discussions.
For the record, the question that was handed to Mr. Gore¹s representative on
January 13, 2000:


Question for Al Gore from Dr. Eugene Mallove, Bow, NH
                   
Mr. Vice President:
I¹m Dr. Eugene Mallove, a member of this Temple and editor of the scientific
journal Infinite Energy magazine. I would like to ask you two critical
questions about energy and the environment, because I know those topics are
dear to you‹it may even help you win over Bradley because of the boondoggle
going on in his state at Princeton! [The Princeton tokamak fusion reactor.]
I hope that you will be very forthcoming in your response ‹ as Senator John
McCain was when I asked him last week in Bow, at a Town Hall Meeting. You
can be instrumental in ending a scientific scandal over energy that has been
going on since the Exxon-Valdez ran aground on March 24, 1989‹ the day after
Drs. Fleischmann and Pons made their cold fusion announcement at the
University of Utah. Candidate Bill Clinton, right here in this room on
January 12, 1992,  told those assembled that he knew something about the
scandal ‹ he said Department of Energy scientists had ³stonewalled Arkansas
scientists.² Despite that, I regret to tell you he has done nothing about it
except [by inaction due to being misinformed] make the scandal grow worse.
Here are the two questions:

1. Will you agree to help end the Cold Fusion controversy by agreeing to  a
scientific briefing here in New Hampshire, by representatives of the
hundreds of American scientists working in the cold fusion and low-energy
nuclear reactions field ‹ including my colleague Dr. Edmund Storms of Los
Alamos National Laboratory?

2. After this, would you consider proposing a National Academy of Sciences
review of the cold fusion and low energy nuclear reactions issue based on
the large body of scientific evidence that has built up since what we regard
as the indefensible, rush-to-judgment, even fraudulent report by the
Department of Energy in 1989?

****

Needles to say, Gore did nothing with the material that was handed to his
top aide. Said top aide, after promising to deliver the material to Gore,
left it in the building, I suspect deliberately. It doesn't matter. Gore
would have done nothing with it anyway.  President Bush has been resent all
the material given to Clinton and Gore. I dare say that he will do nothing
too. Even though  only one single request was made to Clinton and Bush:
"Mr. President, you need do only one thing now: Publicly state that you are
going to investigate this matter and then do it."

From:

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 02:43:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA13246;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:39:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:39:56 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b89a7cbd8980 [12.21.209.87]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:43:17 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAGNETIC ORBITAL IONIZATION
Resent-Message-ID: <"x4sVr2.0.pE3.xvCTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46223
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:40 AM 2/21/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:12:28
>-0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>What excess energy??   The D is formed by p + n -> D + 2.22 Mev.   The bond
>>represents an energy hole.  If you can cause the p and n to separate, then
>>you can get another shot of 2.22 MeV out of them by recombining.  This is
>>the great mystery of stripping reactions which can ostensibly pull the
>>neutron out of the D by a mere 10 - 20 keV collision.
>
>This is only a mystery if one ignores the fact that the stripping only
>happens when one of the two nucleons is absorbed by another nucleus.
>The absorption reaction must supply the 2.2 MeV required to split the
>deuteron. For most other nuclei, absorbtion of a proton or neutron
>yields about 5-10 MeV, more than enough to compensate for the 2.2 MeV
>deuteron binding energy.


We have had this discussion before?  I don't think this argument applies to
stripping reactions in the stellerator, for example.  I don't believe that
for each free neutron released that He3 is created by stripping.  It is
also not reasonable that a proton can be absorbed from a low energy
interaction with a heavy nucleus, i.e. in the stellerator glass walls.  If
that happens then there is still a big mystery as to how the energy
exchange happens between the heavy nucleus and the deuteron.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 05:16:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA28596;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:12:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:12:34 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: mercurio.feedback.net.ar: Host host171.200.61.143.ifxnw.com.ar [200.61.143.171] claimed to be gds-sistemas.com
Message-ID: <3C74F084.A796825A gds-sistemas.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:05:08 -0300
From: GDS <gds gds-sistemas.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: es-AR,en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220150631.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020220162408.03a9d2a0@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8GVR7.0.d-6.19FTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46224
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> >. . . to the enviroment, then you are dooming them to live in the stone
> >age and forcing a reduction in population where 99.9% of them must die off.
>
> What nonsense! Conventional alternative energy could supply far more energy
> than we presently consume, with orders of magnitude less pollution, at a
> lower cost per megajoule. The idea that we must choose  fossil fuel or
> starvation is pure propaganda. It is a sort of garbage the White House
> peddles to frighten taxpayers and justify huge giveaways of tax money to
> the fossil fuel industry, and wars fought on their behalf. The whole nation
> is endangered by countries like Iraq, which the president says is building
> nuclear weapons. We could impoverish them in a few years but reducing oil
> consumption. Heck, we could SELL oil on the world market.

Jed, does make any difference burn oil in the US or in any other country??

>
> - Jed

Regards,

Juan Barrios



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 06:58:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06898;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:55:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:55:11 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.1.20020221125307.00b2ce60 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:00:16 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Creation Science
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"I_jeQ2.0.gh1.FfGTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46225
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thomas Malloy wrote:
 > An abstract Creator  cannot demand from man any service.

Oddly, enough, this is one of the main msgs in a couple of books I could 
recommend on the thorny question of Life:
"Conversations with God" Neale D. Walsch
"God Speaks on Life" - Ivan Sokolov

I include them here because they (particularly the first) suggest some new 
views of time and space.

Long live the Heretics

Stephen.
"As punishment for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me and authority 
myself." - A. Einstein.  To his dying day, Einstein tried to convince 
people not to believe unquestionly in him: "I may well be on the wrong 
track", he said.

8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 
1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 07:48:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28368;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:46:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:46:04 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221103053.00aec788 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:43:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: U.S. transportation is socialistic
In-Reply-To: <000101c1ba6e$fa3f5cf0$6501a8c0 xpkitty>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uvbxo2.0.Ax6.xOHTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46227
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Matthew Rogers wrote:

>If you want to go live in a Socialist country where there is nothing but
>government run transportation . . .

In the U.S., nearly all transportation is run by and paid for by the 
government. We drive cars on highways built and maintained with taxes. The 
cost of the car is only fraction of the total cost. If the government gave 
a fair portion of the taxes to railroads, equivalent to what it gives to 
highways and airport construction, railroads would be much more 
competitive. That is one alternative, but I favor a free market approach. 
Let us charge people the full cost of driving automobiles and gasoline 
addiction, including the cost of roads, pollution, wasted time in traffic 
jams, wars and terrorist attacks. We could install automated total 
collecting machines and transponders, and charge a dollar or two per mile. 
That would solve the traffic problem. Another alternative would be to 
charge $4 or $5 dollars per gallon taxes.

The U.S. transportation is a socialist system in which a valuable resource 
(pavement space at rush hour) is given out to the public for free. 
Naturally, this leads to gross inefficiency and waste. People who truly 
believe in capitalism would favor reforms, which would probably boost rail 
traffic. But most people who call themselves capitalists fight against 
railroads and embraced the worst form of socialist transportation.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 07:48:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28309;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:45:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:45:56 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221104358.00b07388 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:45:59 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Democrats equally at fault
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020220154413.25073A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220174656.03aab580 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"IKz5E2.0.Fw6.pOHTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46226
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > could not ignore. He supposedly looked at it for a while, and then said,
> > "this is too hot for me," meaning too controversial. I do not know whether
> > this is true, but it sounds likely, and it would be in character for Gore
> > or any other modern politician.
>
>Really? I thought it was Clinton who was given the papers, and I never
>heard what he thought about it and he left office so it became moot.

That happened much later. That was a package Gene Mallove sent, as he 
explained. The one I described was earlier in the administration, and the 
story has it that Gore actually saw it and understood the implications.


>We will all be in deep trouble, and I'd rather we drop cold fusion as a
>subject of conversation. It scares the shit out of me, what with these
>terrorist and all.

I doubt CF can be used to build a bomb. If it can, we sure are in big trouble!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 07:54:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32540;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:54:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:54:19 -0800
Message-ID: <002401c1bae7$745abd40$8e8f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <Puthoff@aol.com>, <Deubedoo@aol.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <crquin@rogers.com>, <fstenger@suite224.net>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:50:11 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"OvQkQ.0.Iy7.hWHTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46228
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Recent calculations suggest that there exists in our Universe, matter that is a mirror
image of matter as we know it.

IOW, E = mc^2 transposes to E' = m'c^2

thus mass m  = E/c^2   thus  mirror image mass m' = E'/c^2 allowing the possible
existence of a mirror image of all of the elements and their compounds known to exist,
with strict adherence to the laws of physics and chemistry.

But, like "Cavorite" a material proposed in a 20th Century Science Fiction tale, this
matter Repels ordinary matter with a force the same as the Gravitational Force (Fg):

Fg = - G* m*m'/R^2  where G is the gravitational constant
6.67E-11 nt-meter^2/kg^2.

Based on this premise, the repelling force by our Sun on a kilogram of Cavorite at a
distance of  ~ 40 A.U. or ~ 6E12
meters (the orbit of the planet Pluto) would be:

6.67E-11 * 2E30*1.0/(6E12)^2 = 3.7E-6 nt

Since F = m'a or a = F/m'  = 3.7E-6 meters/sec^2 a kilogram of "Cavorite" would be
repelled accelerated away from the sun and our solar system until it was repelled by
other neighboring Stars.

This should put it into a force equilibrium point somewhere out in the vicinity of the
Oort Cloud where "clouds" of  it are now effecting the anomalous "slowing down" of the
Pioneer-10 spacecraft.

Apparently this material (which Is Not Antimatter) exists
throughout the universe as also evidenced by the recent
discovery of "the accelerated expansion rate" of the universe.

Since it takes ~ 64,000,000 joules of energy to take 1.0 kg of ordinary matter to
escape velocity from the Earth, it will take 64,000,000 joules/kg to bring "Cavorite"
to the Earth's surface, once it is "mined" from it's deposits in the vicinity of the
Oort Cloud.

But, once fabricated into weightless vessels (ballasted by ordinary mass such as water
or sand) it would have many interesting applications.

Even squirting water from such a craft would set up a reactive force plus a repelling
force for propulsion, all in compliance with the laws of conservation of energy and
momentum.

Fred










From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 08:01:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04094;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:00:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:00:51 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221104640.00b02e98 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:00:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <3C74F084.A796825A gds-sistemas.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220150631.00af9578 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020220162408.03a9d2a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"dajiN3.0.s_.ocHTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46229
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

GDS wrote:

>Jed, does make any difference burn oil in the US or in any other country??

Actually, strictly from the environmentalist point of view, it is better to 
burn oil in the U.S. or Japan than third world countries or Mexico because 
U.S. pollution control is better, our fleet of automobiles is newer, and 
our industrial productivity per MJ of energy is higher. However, for that 
same set of reasons the U.S. is better positioned to reduce fuel 
consumption without lowering anyone's standard of living. The best solution 
for everyone would be for the U.S. and Japan to develop  efficient, 
practical machinery such as LED lighting and cold fusion, and then sell it 
to third world countries.

If the U.S. reduced its consumption, the price of oil would fall and 
eventually other countries would increase consumption, unless a much 
better, cheaper alternative came along. However, it would take several 
years for these other countries to increase consumption, and in the 
meanwhile countries like Iraq would be in serious economic trouble. It 
might distract them from weapons research and mischief.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 08:55:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01074;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:52:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:52:35 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:44:42 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <004a01c1baf7$2091d080$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <002401c1bae7$745abd40$8e8f85ce computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fxd162.0.fG.INITy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46230
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>

> But, like "Cavorite" a material proposed in a 20th Century Science
Fiction tale, this
> matter Repels ordinary matter with a force the same as the
Gravitational Force...

Sounds a little bit like a salt substitute, but maybe Cavorite is one
of those marvelous premonitions, the kind that Jules Verne was famous
for...

Here is the relevant quote from the article mentioned yesterday by
Terry Blanton from "Atlantis Rising" The New Heretic by Dr. Eugene F.
Mallove

He is quoting from "Scientific American, January 2000, which features
the article, "Negative Energy, Wormholes and Warp Drive."

"The ordinarily conservative, cold fusion-denying Scientific American
editors appear quite enthusiastic about this scheme of Lawrence H.
Ford and Thomas A. Roman. This is how they promote the article:
"Contrary to a popular misconception, Albert Einstein's theories do
not strictly forbid either faster-than-light travel or time travel. In
principle, by harnessing the elusive force of *negative energy,* one
can shorten stellar distances by bending space time around would-be
star trekkers."

Does this sound vaguely like an endorsement of negative energy by
Scientific American? Perhaps even to a few of the 50,000 PhDs at NASA
but maybe not to not to those Vortexians who believe that NASA and
their supercomputers can't figure out such obvious factors as the mass
of the asteroid belt... which BTW was determined decades ago to be
about 2.5*10^11 tons...

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 09:01:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05271;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:01:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:01:08 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:01:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
Reply-To: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220162408.03a9d2a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221083412.10136B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"NBHUt.0.HI1.KVITy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46231
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> > > The fact that CO2 occurs naturally does not preclude its being pollution.
> >
> >Well, there is an odd concept.
> 
> No, it is not a bit odd. Any textbook on ecology will list many similar 
> examples, both natural and man made. Oxygen in river water, or ozone at 
> ground level, for example.

CO2 has not yet exceeded past maximum. I agree the level is very high. 
But the damage is no more than adding extra water to a river that is well
below flood stage.

> >If CO2 is not causing Global Warming, and there is no rational science
> >that says that it is . .
> 
> There is a great deal of rational science that says it is. The science may 
> be wrong, but you are an extremist to deny that it exists or has any 
> possible validity. When experts spend years studying a problem and publish 
> careful conclusions, you should not dismiss them out of hand, the way 
> Robert Park and the know-it-all brigades dismiss cold fusion scientists. If 
> cold fusion teaches us anything it is that experts are right and people who 
> do not know the details should be cautious when evaluating complex 
> scientific issues and questions.

Valid science means science done the right way. It is not valid science to
toss out data just because it doesn't fit your preconceived theory. To
reach the conclusion of global warming, they global warmist had to
disregard all data older than 1990 because there was a cooling period then
as CO2 increased. 

It is invalid science to ignore upper atmousphere data because it
conflicts with the conclusion. 

It is an error to include data from data points that have gone from rural
to urban, because you're measureing the heat of urbanization, not golbal
warming. 

> >, then what are these deleterious effects? Plants grow faster?
> 
> Exactly. That would be catastrophic. We have already lost millions of acres 
> in Georgia and the surrounding states to kudzu and other fast-growing 
> imported species. The last thing we need is more rampant plant growth. I am 
> sure there would be other deleterious effects.

That's a problem with man importing plants to new areas, not with excess
CO2 levels. 
 
> > > We could easily
> > > reduce CO2 at a moderate pace. It would cost nothing.
> >
> >1) It would cost billions. You're talking about shutting down entire
> >industries like the auto industry . . .
> 
> No one is talking about shutting down anything. I'm talking about a gradual 
> transition. The factories must be rebuilt and retooled eventually. Either 
> U.S. manufacturers will do it at a profit, or when a crisis hits the 
> Japanese will take away a large chunk of their business.

How do you reduce the CO2 emissions of a coal or oil fired plant if you
don't shut it down? 
 
> >2) Since the proposed treaty limits US production of CO2 and allows
> >massive production of CO2 by other countries, what's the point?
> 
> The point is that the U.S. causes more pollution per capita, and it has far 
> better R&D capabilities, so it can pioneer CO2 reduction technology and 
> later sell it at a profit to other countries. China cannot be expected to 
> develop advanced pollution control. They are so behind, they still 
> manufacture piston steam engines. The U.S. is behind our commercial rivals 
> but ahead of China. See:


Your chart shows it is cheaper by at least half for China to develop less
poluting technology, yet the treaty gives them the green light to produce
more emissions. 

This just shows that the treaty is political, not rational. 


> >I am curious why you equate anything good for the fossile fuel interest as 
> >being a moral "bad" . . .
> 
> Because fossil fuel is filthy, obsolete, inefficient, outrageously 
> overpriced, it paid for worst terrorist attack in history, it supports 
> ruthless dictators who despise the U.S., and coal extraction creates a 
> wastelands out of some of the beautiful country in North America. That is 
> morally "bad," if anything is.

Polution from buring fossil fuel as much of a problem anymore due to
better emisions standards. As there is overwhelling fossil fuel use, it is
not obsolete and alternative technologies, while promsing, are not
developed. It is theromdynamically as efficent as it is going to get. We
enjoy some of the cheapest energy prices in the world. 

As for ruthless dicators, well, we don't buy from them. 
 
> >, or that other people are
> >motivated to do things for the sake of the oil companies.
> 
> Gee, if Halliburton paid me $36 million I might be motivated to do things 
> for them. Yes, I suspect money has something to do with people's 
> motivations. See the V.P.'s tax returns:
> 
> http://www.tax.org/THP/Presidential/cheneytaxreturn.pdf
 
Uh, he worked for them before he became VP, right?
 
> >I don't care for the oil companies, but I don't want to drive them out of
> >business for the sake of doing so, either.
> 
> I do! I would drive them out of business in a heartbeat, if I could. I may 
> yet do it with cold fusion. The oil companies and the DoE richly deserve to 
> be driven out of business, along with Iraq, Iran, and some other countries. 
> I would be less happy to destroy Mexico and Venezuela, but it can't be 
> helped. We will probably have to offer them foreign aid. It will cost only 
> a fraction of the money we save from not buying oil and coal.
> 
> 
> >There are 6 billion people on this planet. Seems to me that if your going
> >to shut down all human activity that is SUSPECTED of causing harm . . .
> 
> No one said it must be "shut down" immediately. It should be phased out 
> gradually, as conventional replacements and improvements come along. Now, 
> if cold fusion emerges it WILL be shut down immediately. Every fossil fuel 
> company on earth will be bankrupt within ten years, and the distribution 
> infrastructure will be abandoned in place. The taxpayers will probably have 
> to pick up the tab to rescue the workers & retirees, and clean up the mess. 
> Still, that would be cheaper than continuing to shell out a fortune for 
> fossil fuel.
> 
> 
> >. . . to the enviroment, then you are dooming them to live in the stone 
> >age and forcing a reduction in population where 99.9% of them must die off.
> 
> What nonsense! Conventional alternative energy could supply far more
> energy ...
 
I do like to be taken in context.
 
> >As for hybrid motors, I see no conspiracy to prevent them from the market.
> 
> You are not looking very hard. The Wall Street Journal is mainly 
> pro-business, but it described the conspiracy in a cynical article. The 
> U.S. makers are lobbying Congress to penalize the Japanese for developing 
> high efficiency automobiles, but raising CAFE standards a fixed percent for 
> all fleets. See: W. S. J., "Evasive Maneuvers, Detroit Again Tries To Dodge 
> Pressures For a 'Greener' Fleet," Jeffrey Ball, 1/29/2002

 
 
> >If they work, bring them on. All too often technical problems are
> >interpreted as conspiracies.
> 
> If they work, stop them! Ask Congress to pull a dirty trick, derail free 
> market competition, alarm the public with false claims in op-ed articles in 
> the Atlanta Journal (Feb. 18) . . . The technical problems were solved in 
> 1906. If American companies really are so incompetent they cannot build 
> modern hybrid engines five years after the Japanese did, and 96 years after 
> the technology was invented, maybe they should purchase the engines from 
> the Japanese. The Japanese government might take pity and extend industrial 
> development assistance to Ford and GM. It would be cheaper than buying oil 
> from Saddam Hussein, and Toyota will not use the profits to build nuclear 
> bombs and blow us up.

I tend to only believe conspiracy theories when all other theories fail.
:-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 09:20:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13004;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:17:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:17:50 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:17:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
In-Reply-To: <004a01c1baf7$2091d080$8837fea9 computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221091518.15280A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"6XE9i1.0.yA3.zkITy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46232
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Jones Beene wrote:

> He is quoting from "Scientific American, January 2000, which features
> the article, "Negative Energy, Wormholes and Warp Drive."
> 
> "The ordinarily conservative, cold fusion-denying Scientific American
> editors appear quite enthusiastic about this scheme of Lawrence H.
> Ford and Thomas A. Roman. This is how they promote the article:
> "Contrary to a popular misconception, Albert Einstein's theories do
> not strictly forbid either faster-than-light travel or time travel. In
> principle, by harnessing the elusive force of *negative energy,* one
> can shorten stellar distances by bending space time around would-be
> star trekkers."

Yeah. Positive gravitational potential. Sort of like my proposed master's
project. :-)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 10:07:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06037;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:04:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:04:52 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221120608.03a97ec8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:04:53 -0500
To: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221083412.10136B-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020220162408.03a9d2a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"bYomT.0.FU1.4RJTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46233
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > >, then what are these deleterious effects? Plants grow faster?
> >
> > Exactly. That would be catastrophic.
>. . .The last thing we need is more rampant plant growth. I am
> > sure there would be other deleterious effects.
>
>That's a problem with man importing plants to new areas, not with excess 
>CO2 levels.

In your first statement you said that CO2 will cause plants to grow 
faster.  Now you say it won't? Which is it? If you were right the first 
time and plants will grow faster, that will be a disaster, just as the 
imported plants are.


>The factories must be rebuilt and retooled eventually. Either
> > U.S. manufacturers will do it at a profit, or when a crisis hits the
> > Japanese will take away a large chunk of their business.
>
>How do you reduce the CO2 emissions of a coal or oil fired plant if you
>don't shut it down?

Please read what I wrote: "The factories must be rebuilt and retooled 
eventually." All plants -- coal, oil and nuclear -- must be shut down 
eventually. As they wear out they should be replaced with alternative 
energy. If CF materializes, end users will replace them all in a few years, 
piecemeal, one customer at a time.


>Your chart shows it is cheaper by at least half for China to develop less
>poluting technology, yet the treaty gives them the green light to produce
>more emissions.

China is not yet capable of doing that. Japan and the U.S. are selling 
China advanced generation plants and electric railroads which are far 
superior to what the Chinese make themselves, and Denmark is selling them 
wind turbines. This is the best use of capital to reduce pollution, but 
there are still many cost-effective ways to reduce U.S. consumption. Why 
ship all of the benefits overseas? Americans deserve to save money too. 
Most computer chip factories, for example, can easily reduce energy 40 to 
70%. Why should I pay Intel an extra $20 for wasted energy? It makes no 
more sense than leaving your windows wide open in the dead of winter.


>This just shows that the [Kyoto] treaty is political, not rational.

It is both. It is rational because China and other poor nations do not have 
the ability or capital to reduce energy consumption as much as we do. 
Furthermore, in absolute numbers, the U.S. consumes MUCH more energy than 
China, India, Mexico and all other third world nations combined. A small 
reduction in U.S. consumption will save more fuel than a giant reduction in 
China, although it will also cost more. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/tablee1.html

U.S. 97 quads
China 32
India 12
Africa 12
Mexico 6

The third world could reduce consumption to zero and it would still not 
have as much effect as the introduction of, say, hybrid engines in the U.S. 
These would cost us less than zero; they would save money.


>Polution from buring fossil fuel as much of a problem anymore due to
>better emisions standards.

Don't be ridiculous. I can look of my window in Atlanta and see a pall 
of  smoke and filth, nearly every day of the year. We have grown so used to 
this degraded, indecent way of life we think it is acceptable, just as we 
think nothing of sitting in a traffic jam for an hour. We should have 
higher standards! This is sloppy engineering. We pay one-tenth of our 
income for energy. In return, we should at least have a pristine, healthy 
environment. It could be cleaned up easily. It should have been cleaned up 
50 years ago.



>As there is overwhelling fossil fuel use, it is not obsolete and 
>alternative technologies, while promsing, are not developed.

Nonsense. They were developed long ago.


>It is theromdynamically as efficent as it is going to get.

WHAT!?! Conventional automobiles are 20% efficient. Hybrids and electric 
cars are 30 to 40%, and fuel cell automobiles are as high as 60%. Electric 
power generation is only 33 to 60% efficient. Cogeneration uses 90 to 95% 
of the potential energy.

Statements like yours reflect the worst kind of complacency. "We can't do 
any better, it isn't worth trying, shut up and live with it." I say NO! I 
say we and our children have a birthright to clean air, a pristine 
environment, silent, swift transportation, no traffic jams, and much else. 
One thing for sure: If we don't demand improvements, we will not get them. 
If we are so ignorant we think our technology is "thermodynamically as 
efficient as it is going to get," that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.


>We enjoy some of the cheapest energy prices in the world.

Yes, but it still takes 10% of the average income, the same as it did in 
1900. There are still 50,000 families in Atlanta who cannot afford to pay 
the heating bill. There has been essentially no progress for 100 years. 
That is nothing to boast about. By now energy it should have fallen to 
one-tenth of one percent of average expenses.


>As for ruthless dicators, well, we don't buy from them.

Oh Yes We Do! Iraq is one of our largest suppliers. It exports 2.5 million 
barrels per day, almost as much as it did in the peak before the Gulf War. 
The U.S. officially imports only 0.6 million barrels per day from Iraq, but 
the rest is fungible, of course. There is no way we could impose a real 
embargo on Iraq given today's market conditions. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

Actually, as far I am concerned, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iran are also run 
by dictators. They are not trying to blow us up, however.


 > for them. Yes, I suspect money has something to do with people's
> > motivations. See the V.P.'s tax returns:
> >
> > http://www.tax.org/THP/Presidential/cheneytaxreturn.pdf
>
>Uh, he worked for them before he became VP, right?

Based on his statements about energy I would say he still does work for 
them. However, my point is that he is probably influenced by the industry, 
in favor of it, and likely to promote it given his background. Whereas, for 
example, if you were to elect me president (a terrible idea!) the 
government would promote cold fusion and conservation instead.


>I tend to only believe conspiracy theories when all other theories fail.
>:-)

The automobile industry opposition to CAFE improvements and innovation is 
not a theory. It is a fact. They brag about in op ed columns, and the 
details are described in the Wall Street Journal.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 10:40:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21230;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:37:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:37:27 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:37:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
Reply-To: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stronger evidence for global warming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221120608.03a97ec8 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221102932.20179A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"OxVEx3.0.WB5.dvJTy" mx1>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46234
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> > > >, then what are these deleterious effects? Plants grow faster?
> > >
> > > Exactly. That would be catastrophic.
> >. . .The last thing we need is more rampant plant growth. I am
> > > sure there would be other deleterious effects.
> >
> >That's a problem with man importing plants to new areas, not with excess 
> >CO2 levels.
> 
> In your first statement you said that CO2 will cause plants to grow 
> faster.  Now you say it won't? Which is it? 

Plants will grow faster and consume the excess CO2. The problem you stated
was:

"... in Georgia and the surrounding states to kudzu and other fast-growing 
imported species."

That really is not a problem with plant growth due to CO2, but with fast
growing imported specises. 

Growth isn't going to be increased all that much due to the higher CO2.
Bumper crops and more trees are not generally thought of as polution. 

I can tell your getting pretty pissed off, and I don't want to do that. 
So, you win.  
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 11:00:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08428;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:57:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:57:08 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:49:28 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <006901c1bb08$7e1c4940$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221091518.15280A-100000 eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"w9vv_2.0.W32._BKTy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46235
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>

> Yeah. Positive gravitational potential. Sort of like my proposed
master's
> project. :-)

Let me guess... Something to do with heat anomalies in deuterated
palladium... which was rejected forthwith by your advisor....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 11:15:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06965;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:13:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:13:07 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:13:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
In-Reply-To: <006901c1bb08$7e1c4940$8837fea9 computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221111152.23297A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"lzbD93.0.ki1.2RKTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46236
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
> 
> > Yeah. Positive gravitational potential. Sort of like my proposed
> master's
> > project. :-)
> 
> Let me guess... Something to do with heat anomalies in deuterated
> palladium... which was rejected forthwith by your advisor....
 
Nope. Wanna guess again? 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 11:20:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10288;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:19:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:19:28 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:12:02 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <008f01c1bb0b$a5347f40$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221111152.23297A-100000 eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"hF_iq3.0.eW2._WKTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46237
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>

> > > Yeah. Positive gravitational potential. Sort of like my proposed
> > master's project. :-)

> > Let me guess... Something to do with heat anomalies in deuterated
> > palladium... which was rejected forthwith by your advisor....

> Nope. Wanna guess again?


If it was within the last few years, let's see...weight loss in a
spinning HTSC disc?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 11:40:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17838;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:35:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:35:46 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221135344.00abb330 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:35:12 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Some ecology basics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221102932.20179A-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221120608.03a97ec8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"xTCAH2.0.YM4.HmKTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46238
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>Plants will grow faster and consume the excess CO2.

Yes, of course, but that is no good for agriculture or ecology. That's a 
disaster, like obesity, or the explosive growth of Mycobacterium 
tuberculosis in your lungs. Rapid growth in and of itself is not a Good Thing.


>Growth isn't going to be increased all that much due to the higher CO2.
>Bumper crops and more trees are not generally thought of as polution.

It sure is thought of as pollution!!! You misunderstand. Increased CO2 and 
faster growth would not lead to "bumper crops." It would lead to a few weed 
species, fungi, bacteria and other rapid growth species destroying nearly 
everything else, including food crops. Very few plants in North America are 
adapted to rapid growth. They are adapted to long winters and gray skies, 
and a short growing season compared to, say, the tropics. Change that 
balance even a little and native species will be wiped out. They need 
winter cold and slow growth conditions.

Japan has subtropical conditions, with hot, humid, long summers, short, 
mild winters, and lots of insects. The kudzu vine adopted to those 
conditions by growing rapidly -- it is one of the fastest growing plants 
known, up to a foot per day. In the late 19th century, railroad builders 
deliberately introduce kudzu into the U.S. Southeast to control railway 
bank erosion. Because the vine has no natural enemies in the U.S., it has 
outgrown native species and transformed millions of acres into an 
ecological wasteland. That is what happens when you tip the balance in 
favor of rapid growth.


>I can tell your getting pretty pissed off . . .

Not pissed off, but I am appalled that anyone thinks it would be a good 
idea to change the ecology! What do you think would happen if you could 
move an acre of Pennsylvania forest intact to, say, Puerto Rico or Florida? 
It would be destroyed. What do you think happens to the apple crops without 
snow or deep frost? A lack of winter cold in Pennsylvania is as much a 
disaster as freezing weather in Florida.

This ecology 101. Very basic stuff, that everyone should know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 11:48:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23258;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:48:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:48:00 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:47:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
In-Reply-To: <008f01c1bb0b$a5347f40$8837fea9 computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221113732.25089A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"JSNqq.0.Ih5.mxKTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46239
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
> 
> > > > Yeah. Positive gravitational potential. Sort of like my proposed
> > > master's project. :-)
> 
> > > Let me guess... Something to do with heat anomalies in deuterated
> > > palladium... which was rejected forthwith by your advisor....
> 
> > Nope. Wanna guess again?
> 
> 
> If it was within the last few years, let's see...weight loss in a
> spinning HTSC disc?

Close. Machian mass changes. 

Woodward at CSU Fullerton has produced mass decreases of 0.2 grams in a
small piezoelectric stack. His theory is that the mass change follows a
transcendental equation based on mass being the source of the
gravitational field in four-space.

I'm not sure of the theory, I have issues with the mathematical derivation
of the theory. But maybe that is because math is not my strong point. 

I want to duplicate the 0.2 gram mass reduction, and use it to drive a 3
newton stationary force using the effect. Imagine a driving force that
needs no driving mass. It is a variation of Woodward's "Impulse Engine"
based on what he calls the "warp drive" term. This would prove that the
effect is real. (Or, disprove it and we can work on something else...)

The implications are, well, remarkable. Pure star trek. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 12:21:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27352;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:13:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:13:25 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:05:47 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00a101c1bb13$274b3ee0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221113732.25089A-100000 eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"f8xSJ3.0.yg6.ZJLTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46240
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>

> Close. Machian mass changes.

> Woodward at CSU Fullerton has produced mass decreases of 0.2 grams
in a small piezoelectric stack.

Wow. Just did a quick search and found this:

http://users.erols.com/iri/JPCReport.htm

Some of this stuff makes Cavorite look like... er, the second law
;-]

I wish I had gone to that conference. There was even an interesting
treatment of negative energy...

Hey Fred, it was right up the road in SLC. Guess you might call that a
"happening place" even if it weren't for those silly games...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 12:26:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01974;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:23:36 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:23:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b89b03a23b06 [12.21.211.27]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:26:41 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <Puthoff@aol.com>, <Deubedoo@aol.com>
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <crquin@rogers.com>, <fstenger@suite224.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"WN9MB3.0.hU.2TLTy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46241
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:50 AM 2/21/2, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Recent calculations suggest that there exists in our Universe, matter that
>is a mirror
>image of matter as we know it.
>
>IOW, E = mc^2 transposes to E' = m'c^2
>


There may be lots of such matter, and all about us, if Dr. F. Winterberg
had it right [Winterberg, F. *Quarks Possibly Are Negative Mass Monopoles*
Reno, NV: Desert Research Institute, Atomkernenergie (AKTE) Bd. 26 (1975)
Lfg. 1 (reference from Paul Hill's book Unconventional Flying Objects,
ISBN 1-57174-027-9)]  Winterberg showed why anti-quarks (not anti-matter)
should have negative mass. He believed the proton could be fissioned by an
x-ray pulse of 10^13 erg with a pulse length of 10^-9 second concentrated
on an are of 10^-20 cm^2  (10^42 erg/cm^2).  He anticipated doping solid
material with the anti-quarks by replacing orbital electrons with them.  In
this way matter could be created with arbitrarily close to zero rest mass.

It could be conjectured that x-ray sources create negative mass clumps in
their proximity, and that these are of course rapidly separated from
ordinary mass by gravity.  If it exists, then this kind of mass would
occupy the voids between stars, and might even form stars or black holes
there.  It is interesting that negative mass matter should have been
preferentially been blown away from the big bang by gravity, and thus
should have largest concentrations in the most distance reaches of space,
possibly even majority concentration.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 12:55:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19496;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:52:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:52:17 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:52:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
In-Reply-To: <00a101c1bb13$274b3ee0$8837fea9 computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221124746.28976A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Mdh6r2.0.Qm4.0uLTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46242
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
> 
> > Close. Machian mass changes.
> 
> > Woodward at CSU Fullerton has produced mass decreases of 0.2 grams
> in a small piezoelectric stack.
> 
> Wow. Just did a quick search and found this:
> 
> http://users.erols.com/iri/JPCReport.htm

Yes. I am hoping that I can get Prof. John Cramer here at the University
of Washington to be my research advisor. You can find his write up on the
above web page. I got to see his Mach's Guitar, and to meet his crent grad
student, Mr. Fey. 

I appled to the UW hoping that they wouldn't think this project too ...
wierd? Then I found that Dr. Cramer was working on it!

> Some of this stuff makes Cavorite look like... er, the second law
> ;-]
> 
> I wish I had gone to that conference. There was even an interesting
> treatment of negative energy...
> 
> Hey Fred, it was right up the road in SLC. Guess you might call that a
> "happening place" even if it weren't for those silly games...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 13:22:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01083;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:18:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:18:58 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221151100.00af2868 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:19:04 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: U.S. transportation is socialistic
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221103053.00aec788 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <000101c1ba6e$fa3f5cf0$6501a8c0 xpkitty>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"nSLbD.0.gG.1HMTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46243
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote: "We could install automated total collecting machines and 
transponders, and charge a dollar or two per mile."

I meant: "automated toll collecting machines . . ." Drivers would not have 
to slow down. I would put one at every exit. Cars without transponders 
would be captured by automatic cameras and billed of flat fee of $10 per 
trip. People who worry about the government monitoring their location could 
buy anonymous transponders for cash at any gas station.

While we charge people to drive cars and take up precious space on 
highways, we should even up the historical imbalance and the damage caused 
by socialism, and make subways and commuter trains free for all passengers 
for 50 years, just as the highways have been. Riding trains causes less 
nuisance to others. I would be happy to pay other people to stay off the 
highway and let me drive more quickly.

People often have facile, stereotyped, outdated and fixed ideas of what 
constitutes "socialism" and "capitalism." They look at a perfect example of 
socialism in its worst manifestation -- the U.S. highway system -- and they 
imagine they're seeing capitalist economics at work. It is just the 
opposite! The government expropriates a finite, limited, valuable resource 
from private owners (land), and hands it out for free to people who could 
easily afford to pay (commuters who can afford cars). Naturally, that 
causes gross inefficiency, misallocation of resources,  absurdly low 
traffic density and slow movement, pollution, destruction, traffic jams, 
44,000 deaths per year which could easily be prevented with improved 
technology, and billions of dollars of damage in accidents. No one fixes 
the problems because the roads are "free" and no one is responsible for 
improving safety and reducing accident expenses. Can you imagine how the 
public would react if a privately owned transportation system such as an 
airline killed 44,000 people?

Why is everyone late for work? Why does it get worse year by year? Why is 
there road rage? Well, imagine you steal millions of dollars in cash, stand 
on a street corner, and start handing it out and throwing bills in the air. 
Would you be surprised that a great crowd of people gathers, and they start 
fighting and rioting to grab the money? Road rage is when greedy fools 
fight over property they don't own, they did not pay for, and they have no 
right to be on in the first place.

Woodrow Wilson said the ills of democracy are best healed with more 
democracy. The economic, technical and social problems of the U.S. would 
best be healed with more capitalism, but it has to be real capitalism, not 
socialism for the rich.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 13:43:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13831;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:43:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:43:07 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:35:40 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00b501c1bb1f$b61e3da0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b89b03a23b06 [12.21.211.27]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"c4CY62.0._N3.hdMTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46245
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> There may be lots of such matter, and all about us, if Dr. F.
Winterberg
> had it right ...[snip]

Amazing ideas. Wish more of  Friedwardt Winterberg's stuff was
available on the web... what a thinker!

This is the guy (a student of Heisenberg) who really got me hooked on
looking at nuclear energy "outside the box". For a while in the early
seventies I would drive three hours just to read his articles because
then he was only published in German journals, usually in "Zeitschrift
fuer Physik" and Ga. Tech  was one of the few places then that
subscribed.

Too bad he never got into CF in a big way (?) and I hope he hasn't
nixed it for good cause. I think he's still alive, and probably a bit
of a crank. Just did a quick search for "Winterberg and Cold Fusion"
and it came up short of any CF articles except it looks like he's
still plugging the old impact fusion scheme...

You said "It could be conjectured that x-ray sources create negative
mass clumps in their proximity"... wonder if that could also relate to
pair production...some folks think pair production is an
extra-dimensional gateway phenomena, so perhaps what appears as
negative mass is really positive mass from a fourth spatial
dimension...whew, I knew it was dangerous to start reading that JPC
conference material. What a way to kill a lunch break.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 13:45:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13787;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:43:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:43:03 -0800
Message-ID: <002601c1bb20$baae0980$0307da42 usadatanet.net>
From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <000101c1ba6e$fa3f5cf0$6501a8c0 xpkitty><5.1.0.14.2.20020220181634.00ae70f8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020221151100.00af2868@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: U.S. transportation is socialistic
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:42:56 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Resent-Message-ID: <"I4VDM3.0.DN3.ddMTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46244
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

You've got a damn good point there, Jed....  bra-VO.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: U.S. transportation is socialistic


> I wrote: "We could install automated total collecting machines and
> transponders, and charge a dollar or two per mile."
>
> I meant: "automated toll collecting machines . . ." Drivers would not have
> to slow down. I would put one at every exit. Cars without transponders
> would be captured by automatic cameras and billed of flat fee of $10 per
> trip. People who worry about the government monitoring their location
could
> buy anonymous transponders for cash at any gas station.
>
> While we charge people to drive cars and take up precious space on
> highways, we should even up the historical imbalance and the damage caused
> by socialism, and make subways and commuter trains free for all passengers
> for 50 years, just as the highways have been. Riding trains causes less
> nuisance to others. I would be happy to pay other people to stay off the
> highway and let me drive more quickly.
>
> People often have facile, stereotyped, outdated and fixed ideas of what
> constitutes "socialism" and "capitalism." They look at a perfect example
of
> socialism in its worst manifestation -- the U.S. highway system -- and
they
> imagine they're seeing capitalist economics at work. It is just the
> opposite! The government expropriates a finite, limited, valuable resource
> from private owners (land), and hands it out for free to people who could
> easily afford to pay (commuters who can afford cars). Naturally, that
> causes gross inefficiency, misallocation of resources,  absurdly low
> traffic density and slow movement, pollution, destruction, traffic jams,
> 44,000 deaths per year which could easily be prevented with improved
> technology, and billions of dollars of damage in accidents. No one fixes
> the problems because the roads are "free" and no one is responsible for
> improving safety and reducing accident expenses. Can you imagine how the
> public would react if a privately owned transportation system such as an
> airline killed 44,000 people?
>
> Why is everyone late for work? Why does it get worse year by year? Why is
> there road rage? Well, imagine you steal millions of dollars in cash,
stand
> on a street corner, and start handing it out and throwing bills in the
air.
> Would you be surprised that a great crowd of people gathers, and they
start
> fighting and rioting to grab the money? Road rage is when greedy fools
> fight over property they don't own, they did not pay for, and they have no
> right to be on in the first place.
>
> Woodrow Wilson said the ills of democracy are best healed with more
> democracy. The economic, technical and social problems of the U.S. would
> best be healed with more capitalism, but it has to be real capitalism, not
> socialism for the rich.
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 14:49:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13595;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:46:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:46:14 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:46:04 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: sciclub-list eskimo.com, list physics teaching <phys-l@lists.nau.edu>,
        tap-l <tap-l listserv.appstate.edu>, weirdsci-announce@eskimo.com
Subject: "Newton's Cradle," but with gain
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221141736.2417F-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"AS1ab.0.5K3.pYNTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46246
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Here's something I've never seen before.  S.Q.Field has discovered a way
to make an electromagnetic mass driver which uses permanent magnets only.
It's a variation on "Newton's Cradle", but where the steel ball exits the
system at much greater velocity than the first ball entered.  (see
attached message below.) 

So, how many balls and magnets would be needed to exceed the speed of
sound in air?  Or to attain relativistic velocities?  :)

Mr. Field sells the spheres and supermagnets on his website.  N.B. he also
sells small amounts of pyrolytic graphite (used for diamagnetic levitation
demos), and a 144F low-melting-point alloy (similar to Wood's metal.)  Fun
stuff!

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:19:36 -0800
From: Simon Field <sfield scitoys.com>
To: sfield scitoys.com
Subject: New Science Toy: The Gauss Rifle -- A Magnetic Linear  Accelerator

We've added a new toy at "http://scitoys.com" that we've been having great 
fun with.

It shoots a steel marble at high speed, using only permanent magnets for 
propulsion.

You can build it in a few minutes by taping some magnets onto a wooden ruler.
All of the instructions can be found at

      "http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html"

along with lots of pictures, and an explanation of the science that makes 
it work.

The ball shoots through the device in 1/15th of a second, making a wonderful
clacking sound as it is accelerated from one magnet to the next.  Everyone who
sees it fire gasps and laughs in surprise at the speed and simplicity of 
this little toy.

Have fun!

Simon Quellen Field


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 17:26:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA29412;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:23:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:23:33 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b89b4d312349 [12.21.211.50]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:26:46 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: "Newton's Cradle," but with gain
Resent-Message-ID: <"hAlka2.0.TB7.KsPTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46247
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 2:46 PM 2/21/2, William Beaty wrote:
>Here's something I've never seen before.  S.Q.Field has discovered a way
>to make an electromagnetic mass driver which uses permanent magnets only.
>It's a variation on "Newton's Cradle", but where the steel ball exits the
>system at much greater velocity than the first ball entered.  (see
>attached message below.)
[snip]
>
>      "http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html"
>
>along with lots of pictures, and an explanation of the science that makes
>it work.


First, let me say SMOTastic!!  8^)   (Inside joke only meant to humorously
invoke memories of the SMOT that was puported to be perpetual motion
device, unlike the subject device.)

This is a really cool idea, despite the fact the web page has the science
all wrong, totally confusing momentum p = m v with energy E = (1/2) m v^2.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 17:43:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10991;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:41:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:41:44 -0800
Message-ID: <002b01c1bb42$05dba180$d89810cf LocalHost>
From: "David Rosignoli" <drdaveor enter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221124746.28976A-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:41:17 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"ViQ0G2.0.ah2.O7QTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46248
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology


> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Jones Beene wrote:
>
> > From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
> >
> > > Close. Machian mass changes.
> >
> > > Woodward at CSU Fullerton has produced mass decreases of 0.2 grams
> > in a small piezoelectric stack.
> >
> > Wow. Just did a quick search and found this:
> >
> > http://users.erols.com/iri/JPCReport.htm
>
> Yes. I am hoping that I can get Prof. John Cramer here at the University
> of Washington to be my research advisor. You can find his write up on the
> above web page. I got to see his Mach's Guitar, and to meet his crent grad
> student, Mr. Fey.
>
> I appled to the UW hoping that they wouldn't think this project too ...
> wierd? Then I found that Dr. Cramer was working on it!
>

Wow. I'm jealous. Please, Steve, let us know how your results turn out and
why. Thanks.

-Dave



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 22:21:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13630;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:18:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:18:03 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:17:28 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <1elb7usjqbceqgumv4826hl5lag2g0emag 4ax.com>
References: <002401c1bae7$745abd40$8e8f85ce computer> <004a01c1baf7$2091d080$8837fea9@computer>
In-Reply-To: <004a01c1baf7$2091d080$8837fea9 computer>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA13594
Resent-Message-ID: <"9-ikG3.0.sK3.QAUTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46249
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:44:42 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>of the asteroid belt... which BTW was determined decades ago to be
>about 2.5*10^11 tons...
[snip]
...according to http://www.cogent.net/~pyrrho/basics3.htm you are off by
a factor of 10 million. 
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 21 22:57:41 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27928;
	Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:54:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:54:46 -0800
Message-ID: <003401c1bb6d$cd5650e0$ee05da42 usadatanet.net>
From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020221141736.2417F-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: "Newton's Cradle," but with gain
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 01:54:39 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Resent-Message-ID: <"E4u363.0.Iq6.riUTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46250
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Some high-performance roller coasters use huge foot-long Nd magnets - like
20 foot bars of them - to slow down the train pieces at the end of a run.
I'd imagine they could also be used to accelerate the same.


----- Original Message -----
From: "William Beaty" <billb eskimo.com>
To: <sciclub-list eskimo.com>; "list physics teaching"
<phys-l lists.nau.edu>; "tap-l" <tap-l@listserv.appstate.edu>;
<weirdsci-announce eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 5:46 PM
Subject: "Newton's Cradle," but with gain


>
> Here's something I've never seen before.  S.Q.Field has discovered a way
> to make an electromagnetic mass driver which uses permanent magnets only.
> It's a variation on "Newton's Cradle", but where the steel ball exits the
> system at much greater velocity than the first ball entered.  (see
> attached message below.)
>
> So, how many balls and magnets would be needed to exceed the speed of
> sound in air?  Or to attain relativistic velocities?  :)
>
> Mr. Field sells the spheres and supermagnets on his website.  N.B. he also
> sells small amounts of pyrolytic graphite (used for diamagnetic levitation
> demos), and a 144F low-melting-point alloy (similar to Wood's metal.)  Fun
> stuff!
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:19:36 -0800
> From: Simon Field <sfield scitoys.com>
> To: sfield scitoys.com
> Subject: New Science Toy: The Gauss Rifle -- A Magnetic Linear
Accelerator
>
> We've added a new toy at "http://scitoys.com" that we've been having great
> fun with.
>
> It shoots a steel marble at high speed, using only permanent magnets for
> propulsion.
>
> You can build it in a few minutes by taping some magnets onto a wooden
ruler.
> All of the instructions can be found at
>
>       "http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html"
>
> along with lots of pictures, and an explanation of the science that makes
> it work.
>
> The ball shoots through the device in 1/15th of a second, making a
wonderful
> clacking sound as it is accelerated from one magnet to the next.  Everyone
who
> sees it fire gasps and laughs in surprise at the speed and simplicity of
> this little toy.
>
> Have fun!
>
> Simon Quellen Field
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 04:09:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA01258;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:06:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:06:16 -0800
Message-ID: <001b01c1bb90$bec12be0$268f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>, <Puthoff@aol.com>,
        <fstenger suite224.net>
Cc: <Deubedoo aol.com>, <Jerry_Meleski@yahoo.com>, <crquin@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Mirror Image Matter, Antigravity,and  Cavorite
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:03:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"2acgW3.0.QJ.tGZTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46251
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

An easy experiment to simulate the effect of mirror image forces can be performed
using a pair of "bar" magnets.

Simply hold two magnets with the poles horizontal, so that their unlike poles are
attracted to one another. Then pull one magnet away and rotate it 180 degrees about a
vertical axis through it's center.

You've just simulated "Cavorite", which Nature probably made in the formation of
matter in the universe. Simply an
arrangement of the subatomic particles in a manner that causes Gravitational Repulsion
between mirror image matter and regular matter.

This is NOT "Antimatter" or "Negative Energy".

IOW, E = mc^2 = mirror matter, m'c^2

OTOH, since the gravitational repulsive "antigravity" force (Fg = G* m*m'/R^2) between
stellar masses precludes the formation of mirror matter stars the mirror matter may
only be dispersed throughout the universe as primordial mirror matter Hydrogen (H').
21 cm "hydrogen" radiation?

In which case, if it is collected it can be incorporated with
oxygen to make H'2O (Really Light Water) or with carbon to make nCxH'y polymers
(Really Light Plastics), or stored in tanks in spacecraft as "AntiBallast" etc.

Regards,     Frederick











From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 11:02:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29654;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:59:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:59:25 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:59:28 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA29584
Resent-Message-ID: <"BXbx-3.0.4F7.CKfTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46252
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dennis Cravens (physics tularosa.net) sent me the following food for thought.

- JR


Thought I would start making a list. Please add your thoughts to the list.
Perhaps if everyone started to add, we might get a better picture.
Cold Fusion lessons to date -:

1) Palladium is best,…… Ni, Ni/La Ti, W/Th , Zr/Hf may be just a little.
2) smaller anode to cathode distances seem better - 1 to 2 mm good, >cm bad.
3) large anode to cathode surface areas preferred
4) D20 is needed ….. Even the so called light water runs work only with 10% 
D20 added
5) cold working may be good - something to introduce dislocations
6) Pd that swells the least is better, what volume expansion < 12%
7) lots of small/slow bubbles when out gassing is better than a few big ones
8) warmer is better. Temps over 60C are best , those below 30 to 35 are null.
9) large loading ratios are good.
10) Lithium works better than other salts.
11) long slow initial loading is better than fast loading - if you are in a 
hurry - keep one dimension < 1 or 2 mm.
12) Something initiates the reaction ( pulse of current, temperature shock, 
light, gamma source, inclusion of alpha emitter in lattice…)
13) they do better when in the light.
14) “pixie dust” my help. They are normally ones that have nuclear 
quadrapoles. Au, Ce, rare earths
15) polishing ( small scratches ? ) may be good. Al or Cr oxides seem to work.
16) the lower the turn on current density the better the excess. 0.5 to 1.0 
A/cm^2 seem typically good.
17) Turn on is often preceded by a cell constant shift.
18) At constant current, turn on is preceded by voltage variability.
19) Near turn on, heat to calibration resistor seems to read correctly 
first, but often does not return to low temp after power is removed.
20) heat generation seems to be localize in cathode.

- DC

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 11:31:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11547;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:28:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:28:23 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222142035.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:28:28 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Harold Furth dies
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"uWosl1.0.Jq2.MlfTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46253
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,50614,00.html

Furth was the head of the PPPL and a powerful enemy of cold fusion. 
Progress is usually measured in funerals, but unfortunately many opponents 
are likely to outlive the CF scientists.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 11:58:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25892;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:55:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:55:33 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a0510030cb89c51e015e8 [63.233.196.95]>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:53:59 -0600
To: Vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: another story of F E technology repression
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"uoKbs1.0.OK6.r8gTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46254
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


fellow vortexians

      Check out this website, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bob-lantz 
. I have heard the story of the 4,000 suppressed patents before. I 
have also heard about technology that would make it possible to 
desalinate water with vibrational energy and have suspected that it 
would be possible to produce excess energy from it. This really 
stinks, All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to 
do nothing!
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 12:21:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06426;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:16:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:16:27 -0800
Message-ID: <3C76A6DD.A266DC63 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:15:25 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: another story of F E technology repression
References: <a0510030cb89c51e015e8 [63.233.196.95]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"JEkX01.0.qZ1.NSgTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46255
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> fellow vortexians
> 
>       Check out this website, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bob-lantz
> . I have heard the story of the 4,000 suppressed patents before. 

4736 to be exact:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 13:09:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26685;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:54:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:54:16 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:53:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
Reply-To: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020222120933.12797A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA26573
Resent-Message-ID: <"KY-lb1.0.LW6.o_gTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46256
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Yeah. Deuterons form BECs at the lattice dislocations, and from BECs, you
get fusion. The large size of the BEC and identical particla physics makes
for a strong 4He branching ratio. My buddy Jim Carr use to point out
of size of the nucleon and it's effect on bracnhing ratio all the time. 
He was right. In BECs, however, the "size" is effectively the uncertainty
in the location of the particle. 

Mind you, the BEC is just a few hundred atoms or so, and the temperatures
and densities are not sufficent to form one complete BEC. All my
calculations of temperature and loading show that the conditions are just
below the number density and temperature required. If you ever reached
number density needed, that would be... bad. Think about that hole in the
floor due to the P&F cell that exploded. (note, too, that two moles of
hydrogen and one mole of oxygen create only two moles of water.) What you
have is the formation of small BECs, sort of like how you can have tiny
fomrations of ice (that immediately melt) near but just above the freezing
point of water. 

To get the necessary small dislocations where the BECs are formed, you
need to either work harden the metal hydride or allow the metal hydride
forming prcess to create the dislocations itself. This is why Russ
George's experiment didn't show progress for a number of days. Slow
loading, which has the D in an constant loading and unloading equilibrium,
does this too.

Many metal hydrides don't work as well as Pd because they form an oxide
layer that hampers the loading/unloading. Get this stuff out of the water
and use gas loading like and I think Ti ought to be a cheap, bang up cold
fusion catalyst because it holds a lot more deuterium.

It has been shown that the deuterons are mobile in the metal lattice. You
can increase the density of deuterons, and thus the formation of BECs, by
running a current through the metal. And there in lies the problem... You
can control the rate of fusion.  

Opps!

It's all consistant. I was going to write a paper on this after my next
quantum mechanics class. I think I can show a theoretical basis for cold
fusion that requires no new physics. 


On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Dennis Cravens (physics tularosa.net) sent me the following food for thought.
> 
> - JR
> 
> 
> Thought I would start making a list. Please add your thoughts to the list.
> Perhaps if everyone started to add, we might get a better picture.
> Cold Fusion lessons to date -:
> 
> 1) Palladium is best,…… Ni, Ni/La Ti, W/Th , Zr/Hf may be just a little.
> 2) smaller anode to cathode distances seem better - 1 to 2 mm good, >cm bad.
> 3) large anode to cathode surface areas preferred
> 4) D20 is needed ….. Even the so called light water runs work only with 10% 
> D20 added
> 5) cold working may be good - something to introduce dislocations
> 6) Pd that swells the least is better, what volume expansion < 12%
> 7) lots of small/slow bubbles when out gassing is better than a few big ones
> 8) warmer is better. Temps over 60C are best , those below 30 to 35 are null.
> 9) large loading ratios are good.
> 10) Lithium works better than other salts.
> 11) long slow initial loading is better than fast loading - if you are in a 
> hurry - keep one dimension < 1 or 2 mm.
> 12) Something initiates the reaction ( pulse of current, temperature shock, 
> light, gamma source, inclusion of alpha emitter in lattice…)
> 13) they do better when in the light.
> 14) “pixie dust” my help. They are normally ones that have nuclear 
> quadrapoles. Au, Ce, rare earths
> 15) polishing ( small scratches ? ) may be good. Al or Cr oxides seem to work.
> 16) the lower the turn on current density the better the excess. 0.5 to 1.0 
> A/cm^2 seem typically good.
> 17) Turn on is often preceded by a cell constant shift.
> 18) At constant current, turn on is preceded by voltage variability.
> 19) Near turn on, heat to calibration resistor seems to read correctly 
> first, but often does not return to low temp after power is removed.
> 20) heat generation seems to be localize in cathode.
> 
> - DC
> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 13:16:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06937;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:15:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:15:00 -0800
Message-ID: <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:20:45 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"fuOat1.0.Ji1.JJhTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46257
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Dennis Cravens (physics tularosa.net) sent me the following food for thought.
>
> - JR
>
> Thought I would start making a list. Please add your thoughts to the list.
> Perhaps if everyone started to add, we might get a better picture.
> Cold Fusion lessons to date -:
>
> 1) Palladium is best,…… Ni, Ni/La Ti, W/Th , Zr/Hf may be just a little.

Bulk palladium very seldom works. Use Pd electroplated on Pt instead.

>
> 2) smaller anode to cathode distances seem better - 1 to 2 mm good, >cm bad.

This distance has nothing to do with excess energy production, but only with
achieving a low background heat, i.e. a low cell resistance.

>
> 3) large anode to cathode surface areas preferred.

Again, this only lowers the resistance of the cell.

>
> 4) D20 is needed ….. Even the so called light water runs work only with 10%
> D20 added

The heavy water must be free of light water.

>
> 5) cold working may be good - something to introduce dislocations

The evidence for this is slim.

>
> 6) Pd that swells the least is better, what volume expansion < 12%

Only very rare Pd does not form cracks, hence has reduced swelling.

>
> 7) lots of small/slow bubbles when out gassing is better than a few big ones

Big bubbles indicate cracking.

>
> 8) warmer is better. Temps over 60C are best , those below 30 to 35 are null.

Loading is best done at low temperature followed by heating after a high
composition has been achieved.

>
> 9) large loading ratios are good.

They are essential.

>
> 10) Lithium works better than other salts.
> 11) long slow initial loading is better than fast loading - if you are in a
> hurry - keep one dimension < 1 or 2 mm.
> 12) Something initiates the reaction ( pulse of current, temperature shock,
> light, gamma source, inclusion of alpha emitter in lattice…)

Something CAN initiate the reaction, but the trigger is frequently not obvious.

>
> 13) they do better when in the light.

No

>
> 14) “pixie dust” my help. They are normally ones that have nuclear
> quadrapoles. Au, Ce, rare earths
> 15) polishing ( small scratches ? ) may be good. Al or Cr oxides seem to work.
> 16) the lower the turn on current density the better the excess. 0.5 to 1.0
> A/cm^2 seem typically good.
> 17) Turn on is often preceded by a cell constant shift.

If this happens, how would you know that excess power was being produced?

>
> 18) At constant current, turn on is preceded by voltage variability.

No always.

>
> 19) Near turn on, heat to calibration resistor seems to read correctly
> first, but often does not return to low temp after power is removed.
> 20) heat generation seems to be localize in cathode.

Ed

>
>
> - DC

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 13:44:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18562;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:40:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:40:55 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:40:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020222133319.18276A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA18528
Resent-Message-ID: <"t18Jg2.0.sX4.dhhTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46258
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Edmund Storms wrote:

> 
> 
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > Dennis Cravens (physics tularosa.net) sent me the following food for thought.
> >
> > - JR
> >
> > Thought I would start making a list. Please add your thoughts to the list.
> > Perhaps if everyone started to add, we might get a better picture.
> > Cold Fusion lessons to date -:
> >
> > 1) Palladium is best,…… Ni, Ni/La Ti, W/Th , Zr/Hf may be just a little.
> 
> Bulk palladium very seldom works. Use Pd electroplated on Pt instead.

I suspect the reason for that is that you can achieve large amounts of Pd
near the surface region, where there are more defects. 
 
> >
> > 2) smaller anode to cathode distances seem better - 1 to 2 mm good, >cm bad.
> 
> This distance has nothing to do with excess energy production, but only with
> achieving a low background heat, i.e. a low cell resistance.
> 
> >
> > 3) large anode to cathode surface areas preferred.
> 
> Again, this only lowers the resistance of the cell.
> 
> >
> > 4) D20 is needed ….. Even the so called light water runs work only with 10%
> > D20 added
> 
> The heavy water must be free of light water.
 

> > 5) cold working may be good - something to introduce dislocations
> 
> The evidence for this is slim.

Claytor demonstrated that tritium production is trippled when work
hardened Pd is substituted for annealed Pd. 

Forming the metal hydride is known to cause similar latice dislocations.
Given the time delay in experiments like Russ George, it seems that there
is plenty of time for lattice dislocations to be created by the hydride
process itself


> > 6) Pd that swells the least is better, what volume expansion < 12%
> 
> Only very rare Pd does not form cracks, hence has reduced swelling.
> 
> >
> > 7) lots of small/slow bubbles when out gassing is better than a few big ones
> 
> Big bubbles indicate cracking.



> > 8) warmer is better. Temps over 60C are best , those below 30 to 35 are null.
> 
> Loading is best done at low temperature followed by heating after a high
> composition has been achieved.
> 
> >
> > 9) large loading ratios are good.
> 
> They are essential.
> 
> >
> > 10) Lithium works better than other salts.
> > 11) long slow initial loading is better than fast loading - if you are in a
> > hurry - keep one dimension < 1 or 2 mm.
> > 12) Something initiates the reaction ( pulse of current, temperature shock,
> > light, gamma source, inclusion of alpha emitter in lattice…)
> 
> Something CAN initiate the reaction, but the trigger is frequently not obvious.

:-)

> > 13) they do better when in the light.
> 
> No
> 
> >
> > 14) “pixie dust” my help. They are normally ones that have nuclear
> > quadrapoles. Au, Ce, rare earths
> > 15) polishing ( small scratches ? ) may be good. Al or Cr oxides seem to work.
> > 16) the lower the turn on current density the better the excess. 0.5 to 1.0
> > A/cm^2 seem typically good.
> > 17) Turn on is often preceded by a cell constant shift.
> 
> If this happens, how would you know that excess power was being produced?
> 
> >
> > 18) At constant current, turn on is preceded by voltage variability.
> 
> No always.
> 
> >
> > 19) Near turn on, heat to calibration resistor seems to read correctly
> > first, but often does not return to low temp after power is removed.
> > 20) heat generation seems to be localize in cathode.
> 
> Ed
> 
> >
> >
> > - DC
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 13:49:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22081;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:48:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:48:27 -0800
Message-ID: <3C76BBDC.1668D31 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:45:00 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 22, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"jbHnS2.0.vO5.gohTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46259
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Feb 22, 2002
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:12:31 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 22 Feb 02   Washington, DC

1. TRUE LIES: PENTAGON CREATES "OFFICE OF STRATEGIC INFLUENCE." 
Its director, Brig. Gen. Pete Worden, was quoted this week as
saying the office could engage in information warfare, including
spreading inaccurate or misleading information.  Worden is an
expert, having served as deputy to Gen. Abrahamson, head of the 
SDI program.  In fact, a deliberate disinformation campaign must
already be under way---Defense Secretary Rumsfeld told reporters
the next day that Pentagon officials tell only the truth. 

2. SENSITIVE, BUT UNCLASSIFIED: A NEW LEVEL OF SECRECY?  Back in
December, stories circulated that editors of certain biology
journals were pressured by the White House to create guidelines
for withholding information that could be helpful to terrorists. 
When WN made inquiries at the White House, we were given high-
level assurances that it never happened.  The story finally came
out on the front page of Sunday's New York Times in a story by
William Broad.  All this is painfully familiar to physicists who
recall efforts of the Reagan administration in the early '80s to
create what amounted to a new level of classification: "sensitive
but unclassified."  In 1982, at a conference of the Society of
Photo-Optical Instrumentation Engineers, the government blocked
more than 100 unclassified papers from presentation. Officers of
the American Vacuum Society were arrested for allowing scientists
from the People's Republic of China to attend the annual meeting
at which all papers were unclassified. At the APS March meeting
it was easy to pick out the FBI agents, wearing bulky hearing
aids, and talking into the cuffs of their suits.  In 1983 the APS
Council affirmed its support for "the unfettered communication of
all scientific information that is not classified."  
http://www.aps.org/statements/83.2.html

3. GRADING: CAN WE GO BACK TO POSTING GRADES ON OUR OFFICE DOOR? 
The 1974 Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act says student
files may not be released without parental consent. To one Tulsa
mother, that meant the widespread practice of students grading
each others papers in class, which embarrassed her son, must end
(WN 30 Nov 01).  On Tuesday,  the U.S. Supreme Court, unanimously
ruled that Congress did not mean to rule out "peer grading." 

4. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: YES, BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF WE RESUME TESTING? 
The site passed all the seismic criteria, but opponents of Yucca
point out that it's only 100 miles from the idle nuclear test
range (WN 30 Nov 01).  Opponents of testing make the same point.

5. EMF: NEW ITALIAN SPORTSWEAR SHIELDS WEARER FROM EMF.  Allegri
debuts its carbon fiber jackets as protection from EMF emitted by
wireless devices.  WN can assure readers that if they use these
jackets they will not get cancer from cell phones.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:19:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03781;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:16:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:16:01 -0800
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:08:27 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Rfldq.0.xw.WCiTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46260
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dennis Cravens says...

12) Something initiates the reaction ( pulse of current, temperature
shock,
light, gamma source, inclusion of alpha emitter in lattice.)

Does anyone have a reference, even if anecdotal, for a gamma source
being used to initiate or trigger a CF cell?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:50:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19115;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:47:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:47:28 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: lajoie owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:47:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Feb 22, 2002]
In-Reply-To: <3C76BBDC.1668D31 ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020222144317.23875A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"k-0Nb2.0.bg4.0giTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46261
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


For anyone that thinks that CF is not suppressed technology, note the two
articles.

1) The government will lie.
2) The government will suppress technology it deems a danger to society,
and rightly so.

Now, ask yourself, if cold fusion was real, wouldn't the government
suppress it if it had a destructive use? 

Think about that hole in that concrete floor. I forget if it was Pons for
Fleishman's basement. They weren't even trying. ...



On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 22 Feb 02   Washington, DC
> 
> 1. TRUE LIES: PENTAGON CREATES "OFFICE OF STRATEGIC INFLUENCE." 
> 
> 2. SENSITIVE, BUT UNCLASSIFIED: A NEW LEVEL OF SECRECY?  Back in
> December, stories circulated that editors of certain biology
> journals were pressured by the White House to create guidelines
> for withholding information that could be helpful to terrorists. 
> When WN made inquiries at the White House, we were given high-
> level assurances that it never happened.  The story finally came
> out on the front page of Sunday's New York Times in a story by
> William Broad.  All this is painfully familiar to physicists who
> recall efforts of the Reagan administration in the early '80s to
> create what amounted to a new level of classification: "sensitive
> but unclassified."  In 1982, at a conference of the Society of
> Photo-Optical Instrumentation Engineers, the government blocked
> more than 100 unclassified papers from presentation. Officers of
> the American Vacuum Society were arrested for allowing scientists
> from the People's Republic of China to attend the annual meeting
> at which all papers were unclassified. At the APS March meeting
> it was easy to pick out the FBI agents, wearing bulky hearing
> aids, and talking into the cuffs of their suits.  In 1983 the APS
> Council affirmed its support for "the unfettered communication of
> all scientific information that is not classified."  
> http://www.aps.org/statements/83.2.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:59:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23818;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:58:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:58:45 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:58:32 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Gamma source initiation of CF
In-Reply-To: <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"BAE292.0._p5.bqiTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46262
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>Dennis Cravens says...
>
>12) Something initiates the reaction ( pulse of current, temperature
>shock,
>light, gamma source, inclusion of alpha emitter in lattice.)
>
>Does anyone have a reference, even if anecdotal, for a gamma source
>being used to initiate or trigger a CF cell?

Back in 1992, a researcher named Ying claimed he had evidence of that. I do 
not know whether he was ever replicated, or what became of him. I have a 
melodramatic document from him, attached.

- Jed


Document #2:  June 26th statement by Dr. Nelson Ying and his associate 
Charles W. Shults III, under joint heading of Orlando Science Center and 
Quantum Nucleonics Corporation. Transcription follows:


      The dream of unlimited inexpensive energy is age old and so is the 
dream of controlling probabilities.  These two dreams met a 1 AM on 
November 11, 1989 when Dr. Nelson Ying contemplated the then again current 
news about fusing deuterium and deuterium into helium.

      In 1927 Paneth and Peters observed hydrogen in glass producing a 
trace of helium.  By 1940, Franck and Sakharov postulated that fusion of DD 
is doable if the electron is replaced by a muon.  By 1956, Alvarez observed 
the above by introducing muons into a deuterium gas: although he concluded 
later that the process is too slow to produce meaningful energy. On March 
23, 1989, Pons and
Fleischman announced that they have been able to obtain positive energy 
gain from cold fusion.  Jones publish in Nature on April 27, 1989 
indicating that he also discovered cold fusion, however much less energy 
generation than Pons and Fleischman.  Other institutions tried to duplicate 
the results and some
like Texas A & M, Moscow University and Kossuth University in Hungary had 
positive results while MIT et al did not.  Even those who did get positive 
results seemed to have difficulty repeating the success, while no one was 
able to obtain cold fusion on demand.

      Dr. Ying postulated that in as much as experimental results indicated 
that cold fusion exists albeit with a very small probability of occurring, 
the fact that observable results are seen implies that there must be an 
enhancing mechanism.  He theorized that instead of considering only that 
there is a small probability of DD fusing into helium, but rather in 
probability space, the channels such as He + gamma(23.8 MeV) actually 
exists, although for only a very short period of time.  Dr. Ying further 
theorized that there exists mechanism to grab this virtual short lived 
state out of probability space into normal space.  The act of grabbing a 
virtual state out of probability space is an act of changing 
probability.  Applying this methodology to cold fusion would bring 
unlimited inexpensive energy to the
world.

      The mechanism considered by Dr. Ying is to have an experimental 
universe prepared with heavy water, Pt and Pd electrodes, and battery, 
undergoing electrolysis.  The incident bosons would be aimed at the target 
in the experimental universe.  In this case the Pd cathode is the target. 
When the incident bosons are SAME AS AT LEAST ONE TYPE OF HOPED FOR 
RESULTING BOSONS, THE INCIDENT BOSON STIMULATED THE PRODUCTION OF THIS
RESULTING BOSON - OR PULLS IT OUT OF PROBABILITY SPACE.  When this happens,
not only do we obtain the resulting bosons which are identical to the 
incident bosons, but we also get everything else which is supposed to come 
out from this decay channel.  Or, in other words, when we shoot 23.8 MeV 
gamma into the Pd cathode, we should get helium-4 and more 23.8 MeV gamma out -
and again this is cold fusion.  We note, however, cold fusion is only one 
example of the general theory of using incident bosons to change probability.

      Following the above theorizing, a paper was produced by Dr. Ying and 
t attorney, the paper and the originals thoughts (reduced to writing) were 
notarized on November 27, 1989.  The period from then until the successful 
experiments on June 23, 1992 was taken up by raising funds, forming research
groups, obtaining lab space, purchasing equipment and setting them up and 
actually doing the experiments. Dr. Ying was initially assisted by Dr. Lee 
Chow  of UCF as Co-Principal Investigator.  Results were not positive and 
the research and grant were not renewed upon termination.  Quite a few 
months later Dr. Ying, as Principal Investigator, arranged a grant from 
Quantum Nucleonics
Corp. to perform research at the Orlando Science Center and his work was 
assisted by Charles W. Shults III as Co-Principal Investigator.

      Although verbal agreement was reached on December 2, 1991, actual 
research did not start at the Orlando Science Center until January 1992 
because of the need to build a small lab. One hundred and two experiments 
later, we finally have enough successful experiments, under several 
different experimental geometries, to be sure that we have obtained cold 
fusion which we can initiate
on demand.  We were also able to rejuvenate used cells by a reversing 
voltage purge.  After the rejuvenation, used cells which have been showing 
fatigue are once more able to produce more energy.

      Using alpha and gamma rays as incident initiating bosons, our 
experimental results indicate that we have an electrolysis input of less 
that (?than?) 15 microwatts with an output of approximately 0.33 to 0.50 
watts. This gives an increase of about 5 orders of magnitude.  Rejuvenation 
takes approximately 10 seconds.

      From experimentally obtaining cold fusion on demand, we have one 
experimental proof of Dr. Ying's general theory of 'using incident bosons 
to grab decay channels out of probability space into normal space, and thus 
controlling probability'.  This is completely new in as much as it has 
always been held that decay channels, such as the half life of radioactive 
substances, etc. are probability related and cannot be controlled or 
enhanced by man.

      We are happy to report that both cold fusion on demand and the more 
encompassing general theory of probability control have now been discovered 
and  also proven by experiments at the Orlando Science Center.

                                       Dr. Nelson Ying and
                                       Charles W. Shults III
                                       June 26, 1992

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 15:42:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10182;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:39:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:39:50 -0800
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:32:20 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <009b01c1bbf9$2c8be120$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"mp4YW1.0._U2.5RjTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46263
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> Back in 1992, a researcher named Ying claimed he had evidence of that. I do
> not know whether he was ever replicated, or what became of him. I have a
> melodramatic document from him, attached.

> - Jed

Thanks for that information. With the passage of a decade and no further claims,
it might well be yet another case of getting shortchanged by fate (or reality)
on that proverbial "fifteen minutes of fame."

The following is another piece from a quick web search - it says essentially the
same thing as your document, except it has a politcal twist.

In June of 1992, Associated Press Writer Ike Flores wrote the following in an
article titled 'COLD FUSION MAY STIR SCIENTIFIC REACTION'.

"ORLANDO, Fla. -- An Orlando scientist awaits the reaction
of his colleagues worldwide to an announcement that he's
developed a laboratory cold fusion process that can be repeated
on demand.

"Dr. Nelson Ying, a nuclear physicist, announced Friday that
he is getting up to 100,000 TIMES more energy from a tabletop
apparatus than he applies to it, and that he can repeat the
procedure at will.

"A workable cold fusion process -- that can be used to
produce cheap electric power -- has been touted as a solution to
the world's energy problems.

"He began his work in November 1989 after two University of
Utah chemists and others claimed to have discovered cold fusion.

"However, scientists worldwide had spotty results to
duplicate the work of the chemists Stanley Pons and Martin
Fleischmann.  Even those that did obtain positive results had
difficulty repeating the process, and no one has been able to
obtain cold fusion on demand.

"But Ying's announcement may reopen the controversy over
similar claims that have never been fully substantiated.

"'We are sure we have obtained cold fusion which we can
initiate on demand,' Ying announced at a news conference after a
demonstration at the Orlando Science Center.

"'This is subject, of course, to the rigorous review of my
peers,' added Ying, who is an adjunct professor at the University
of Central Florida and president of Quantum Nucleonics Corp, of
Orlando.

"He said he and a co-worker, Charles W. Shults III,
developed the process over the past three years and have
conducted 102 successful experiments.

"'We are able to get much more heat than we put in,
repeatedly,' Ying said after the demonstration observed by U.S.
Rep. George E. Brown Jr., D-Calif., chairman of the House
Science, Space and Technology Committee. "Brown and U.S.
Rep. Jim Bacchus of Orlando, a member of the committee, said
 they were hopeful that Ying's process could be scientifically proved.

"'I will probably assign some of our best staff people to
this right away,' said Brown, who was surprised by the disclosure
while on a visit to Orlando with Bacchus."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 16:35:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02287;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:32:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:32:17 -0800
From: Keasy aol.com
Message-ID: <34.231d8ce0.29a83cec aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:31:40 EST
Subject: Re: another story of F E technology repression
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y5D2l1.0.XZ.GCkTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46264
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 2/22/02 1:33:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
commengr bellsouth.net writes:

> >       Check out this website, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bob-lantz
>  > . I have heard the story of the 4,000 suppressed patents before. 
>  
>  4736 to be exact:
>  
>  http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html
>  
>  Terry

   Just a thought --- how does this relate to the constitutional requirement 
that the goverment can not take our property (probably intellectual in this 
case) without just compensation??
                                                                 Ken

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 22 17:33:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27950;
	Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:31:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:31:08 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020222203236.007a0ba0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:32:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: another story of F E technology repression
In-Reply-To: <34.231d8ce0.29a83cec aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"yqFDY.0.eq6.S3lTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46265
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Keasy aol.com wrote:

>   Just a thought --- how does this relate to the constitutional requirement 
>that the goverment can not take our property (probably intellectual in this 
>case) without just compensation??

I don't know exactly, but this is mainly the DoD doing the "taking." During
WWII it grabbed a lot of land and many buildings way below market price, to
build bases and nuclear bomb plants. It does a lot of nasty stuff in the
name of National Security. Still, you have to have warm spot for Uncle Sam.
This is only government in the world that would hold a press conference to
announce it plans to lie to the press, and then another to say it won't
after all. It is a classic philosophy problem of self-referential assertions:

1. My next statement will be a lie.

2. I retract my previous statement.

If #1 is true, #2 must be false, and vice versa.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 03:32:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA27274;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 03:29:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 03:29:36 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: "cold Fusion",U.S. transportation: The Science of Transportation ; and you wont have it better.
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 03:29:29 -0800
Message-ID: <000801c1bc5d$5bc0d8b0$0301a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020221103053.00aec788 pop.mindspring.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"HambR.0.4g6.WqtTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46266
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed, and Vor's
	We will always have a problem in this country if we insist that the
government can do it better, and when the power of the government is used to
manage people, people always suffer. I have lived in Washington State for
many years, and we now have had the worst traffic running for the last 10
years. Road rage is the result of people loosing their self control, not the
result of not paying enough taxes.  If you feel you are not paying enough
taxes, sign over your paycheck to them, I am sure they will spend it, but
not necessarly the way they intended.
	I will show you, below why we are where we are, and the basic things we
need to do to solve them.

Examples: (and an overview history of travel)

Paths become Roads, Rivers get barges, dams, locks, and canals, and roads
get bridged, Oceans and Seas get Ports and Ships.

	All the above, when consolidated by a Government, are used to protect
itself Inside its borders, and to project force extrernaly to protect its
borders, and exert its influence. Typically, a smart person, would build on
both sides of a river fording, build a ferry system and charge a toll to get
across. Eventually his decendentants or inheritors, or the invader woud take
over this vital natural resource, and eventually build a bridge. In war, men
would loose their lives blowing up and or controlling these bridges to
prevent the rapid movement of material and troops by the enemy. In short
Roads, bridges become a vital natural resource for a country. With the
invention of ships, the science of roads was extended to the sea's. Ports
became Technically equivalant to a Bridge over water, and warships
protetected these traderoutes just like footsoldiers protecting travelers
from raiding woodsman and footrobbers.

	With the invention of Steam power, Paths and roads could be upgraded by
adding 2 rails of steel, some wood and gravel. In fact, it was on posted on
Vor, that the width of the rails we use today is the same width as the axels
used before the use of rail, of the heavy wagons used before steam power.
Other countries in Europe, fearing invasion, used different widths of rail,
to prevent the projection of force inside their own borders. A rail version
of a Cisco Firewall. ( Cisco is named after a town in California that was a
major switching station for rail ).

	With the invention of the USA on Jul 4 1776, it was put into the
constitution the freedom of travel. The Framers of the Constitution
realized, not having any standing army, was that a well armed populace's
only defense was freedom to travel in his own country. After centuries of
warfare in Europe in the middle ages, which was pretty much a continous war,
the way a King or Warlord could totally control its population, including
starving out whole districts, was to totally control all travel by people.

	So the USA, realizing that the only way to expand its original 13 states to
its newly setteled lands in the west was to build a rail system, granted
land to private enterprise in an investment to connect the oceans. These
"Land Grants" acted like huge Trade, a payment in like for an investment (
land for rail ). A 16 month cross country wagon travel was shortened to
days. Settlements across the land bloomed, and people poured in from Europe
to settle and work these vast empty spaces. Industry sprung up to build more
rail, Steel factories, tooling manufacturers, up and down the middle of the
country, where the ores could be proccessed. All by private enterprise.

	So it stood for a about a hundred years, till the Seccession of the
Southern States. Then again, as in europe, The Science of Transportation was
turned to war. The south lost the war, because it could not project its
forces to cut off those  vital defenses of the North. The North Won.

	About a hundred years later, Europe again fell into complete war, and the
control of the trade routes was taken to the seas. The North won again.

	Only a few years later, the USA was threatened by total war on Both Shores.
Europe was controlled by Germany in a matter of months, its fast attack
forces could be sent across the Continent by rail, and the first ever
freeway's. The Japanese invaded Alaska, and if they got a firm foothold in
the mineral rich areas, with enough industrial capacity could have been a
serious threat. America responded by building the AL-CAN highway through
some of the worst wilderness. You can now drive drom Seattle to Anchorage in
about 40 hours.
	A decision was made to build the Interstate Freeway System, linking all the
states, and the industrial areas of the country. Its Original charter was
for the movement of Troops and Commercial traffic, paid for by a consumption
tax on fuel, at a cost  of about 1 millon a mile ( average with bridges ).

Trucks travel about 100,000 miles a year, Gross earnings on average $120,000
per truck, and its total tax base from this is about $38,000 per truck
State, Federal and Local taxes and fee's. Total profit to the company after
expenses is a National average of ony 2.5 %. Would you work for a 2.5 %
commission ? Lots of companies are not. Substandard wages ( less than 30K a
year )for trying to live  in a vehical the size of your average minivan,
leaves about 300,000 open driver positions at any one time across the
nation.
Anyway away from my point. if there were 4 million moving trucks across
interstate highway, there would be $150 billion in taxes taken in at a
Federal and local level. Add 20 times that ammount in car taxes, and you
have trillions a year reaped by the government.
	Yet we have traffic jams and road rage and pollution and other problems.

Keep in mind, I estimated the above numbers. Checking the American Trucing
Assocation at
http://www.truckline.com/infocenter/position_papers/cashcow.html

So where does all the money go ?

We wont have it any better, unless there is total accountability across the
board for every government agency for every dollar spent.
	In my state, Washington, state fuel tax is mandated by the constitution to
be spent on transportation. Yet, the WSDOT agency does not answer to any
elected official, spends 89% of its budget in house, and there are
transportation projects started 15 years ago that are unfinished. In the 15
years, the completed projects are already behind the times. Senior officals
retirement pay is dependant on their last few years gross pay, including
overtime, so they assign themselves overtime. Construction on these projects
are set at "Davis Bacon" wages at a minimum $30 an hour, for any worker, and
cannot be bid out to the fastest and or lowest bidder.

	After the earthquake in California, emergency rules cancelled all these
regulations, and all the freeways were rebuilt by one company in only a few
months, under bid, under time, and under budget. Go figure. They even used
old Railroad flatbed cars to put up bridges, and are still in use today.

Today:

Rail(Heavy): Most, if not all railways are Privately owned or Publicly owned
corporations. They own their own track, land and infrastructure, and some
even own their own refineries. Before the train, cross country travel was
limited to horse and buggy.  They got out of the passegner hauling buisness
many years ago, when passengers could travel farther faster and cheaper than
the train. The government at a federal, and in some cases a local level
mandate time on these tracks to be given to public transportation without
compensation ( AMTRAK ) who cannot, and have not ever made any profit on
their entire system.

For the last 100 years No new rail systems or track has been built. Now new
capacity is needed, but the cost will be about te same as the original land
grants of hundreds of millions of acres, only this time in cash for real
property.

Highways and Roads. A mix of toll based, mile tax based, fuel taxed based
multi trillion dollar cash cow for the Governments.
More roads are being built in states like Texas, fueling their growth, and
in high congested areas, it will cost about 15 million per mile per LANE for
the extra land. For the last 25 years, on average no new expansion has been
started, only completed. In Washington state, in the last 10 years there has
only been FOUR miles of new state highway built. Dont ask me where, I havent
driven them.

In conclusion, Until the people extract an accounting of the government for
the taxes extraced from them, and until about 75-85 % of the tax dollars are
spent on truly innovateive high tech transportaiton systems, like fast
Maglev, Monorail/ Elevative Rail systems, and make them pervasive and
standardized nationaly,
	we will be stuck in our cars in traffic. ( Until I can buy a
http://www.moller.com )

Cold Fusion, Hot fusion, and Nuclear energy will only come on line to
produce non-aero-polluting electicty to power the national trasnportation
grid when the Oil truly runs out. Until then its "heresy" to tell the
government that they are not cost effective with our money, and tell them we
cant have any more of our taxes. Thats Socialism. They tell us how to live,
work, and play. I am not for total Commercialism either, I am for Liberty.
Give me liberty or give me death. I will either slave for the government, or
make a few percent profit in my wages to save each year for my retirement.
Bleh

So in conclusion, I am moving to a state with lots of miles between houses,
and pretty much refusing to live in a state that taxes me once in the car,
and taxes me again in the time and life energy I loose looking at someone
elses tailpipe 4 hours a day.

Best wishes all,

Matt




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 07:56:19 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13291;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:51:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:51:31 -0800
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:44:01 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001b01c1bc80$eb020b20$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
 <009b01c1bbf9$2c8be120$8837fea9 computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"SmiuX1.0.bF3.2gxTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46267
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Like CF itself, the story just gets curiouser and curiouser...

Here are further bits of offbeat information about the previously mentioned Dr.
Nelson Ying, aka The Baron of Balquhain, and the enigmatic reputed inventor of
an "on demand" form of Cold Fusion, which apparently fell off the map a decade
ago.

http://members.aol.com/balquhain/Friends.html

Side note: did you notice the Chinese sign in the middle which reads:
 'One World - One Clan'

Although Ying is of Chinese ancestry, the  Barony of Balquhain is apparently
part of Scottish heraldry but is it here?

http://www.electricscotland.com/burkes/y.htm

At any rate, Ying occasionaly confers chivalric knighthood
http://events.adelphi.edu/whatsnew/archive/20001019.shtml

He is somewhat of a philantropist and gives away a science prize know as the
Ying Prize
http://www.yingprize.com/

Dr Ying and his company Quantum Nucleonics Corporation, also fund such
extraordinary studies as "Atrificial Life."

http://home.cfl.rr.com/aichip/

Nevertheless there is no web site for Quantum Nucleonics Corporation
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=%22Quantum+Nucleonics+Cor
poration%22&btnG=Google+Search

So it is very doubtful that Ying set it up to capitalize on the royalties from
his CF invention...unless of course, it is producing a tax-free royalty stream
from overseas, maybe RoC? Didn't the Chinese once seem to be getting a firm
foothold into CF? Did they become relativley silent lately because they are
already well into the production stage of development and want to keep that
secret?

Hint: I couldn't make a "smiley" big enough for that last paragraph.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 09:27:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11765;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:22:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:22:16 -0800
Message-ID: <000d01c1bc86$0f6b14c0$468f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>, <puthoff@aol.com>,
        <crquin rogers.com>
Cc: <Deubedoo aol.com>, <fstenger@suite224.net>, <Jerry_Meleski@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mirror Image Matter, Antigravity,and Cavorite
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:20:08 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"RF4a82.0.ht2.8_yTy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46268
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If Mirror Image Matter "Cavorite" atoms (which could be any element and it's isotope)
combined with any atom or isotope of "Regular Matter" it would make a weightless or
lightened compound that might have ended up in a Stellar Burning Process and thus
ended up as "dust" in a Supernova Explosion. In which case due to the 40 or so orders
of magnitude electrostatic force over the gravitational repulsive force, it might be
tied up with Regular Matter on the Sun, Earth, Moon, or other Planets etc.

In which case, clever means would have to be used to isolate it.

This suggests that Cavorite Enriched Regular Matter (CERM) could be incorporated into
spacecraft that could vary from weightless to restrained/ballasted antigravity craft.

The possibilities range from safe transport of Nuclear Wastes to Mercury, or the Sun,
to Interplanetary or Interstellar travel.

Not to mention the elimination of pothole pocked highways.

Regards,  Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 12:52:28 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32089;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:43:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:43:44 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: "Newton's Cradle," but with autoloading capability
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:43:29 -0800
Message-ID: <000401c1bcaa$c0b03480$0501a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b89b4d312349 [12.21.211.50]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"fCaHr1.0.Jr7.0y_Ty" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46269
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Note : z-axis down the barrel
	X-axis vertical
	Y-Axis Horizontal


It would be interesting to see if you could build this device the following
way to protect the magnets, and to "autoreload" the next shell.

Build a hardened steel jacket around each magnet, and put the ball/ magnet
array inside a nonmagnetic tube. Replace the permanent magnets with a
electromagnet, as all it does is hold a "charge 1, and a charge 1/8" kinetic
energy transfer slug.

Then build a a second array going in the opposite direction separated by a
magnetic partition A linkage and ratchet would move back the balls that are
now "Shot".

Also, make the bullet that leaves the barrel nonmagnetic so there will be no
force whatsoever on the last magnet.

You could also make the Kinetic balls free floating magnetic shapes that
"float" between the driver magnets for more efficiency. Use repulsive
magnetics at 90 degrees to the z axis on on the x and y positions.

Better yet, KISS and use the 2 parallel rulers, separated by the width of a
ball,
The ball track open,
Electromagnets above and below both rulers,
Install optical sensors looking through the track at an inteval,
That would sequentially turn on a magnet just ahead of a ball, pulling a
ball down the barrel,
Or even replacing the ball with a magnet, and flipping polarity of the
magnets behind it to give a "push"

I saw this done with a "ring" magnet, with brushes and such on a 3 foot
rail, and the ring left the rail at about 450 FPS.

The army's way was a parallel set of rails, and Iron cube with a piece of
aluminum foil "brush" to short circuit a pair of aluminum rails about the
length of a regular tank barrel.
	The aluminum foil would vaporize between the High amperage rails, sending
the 2" x2" steel cube downrange, at 6 miles, it would completely go through
a Abrams tank like butter.
	Problem is, the "gun" required a platform about the size of a semi, for the
Generator, Capacitor bank, and was about 10 times the weight of a single
tank. And a new "barrel after about 5 shots.

Now put that in orbit or on the moon, use Hi - temp superconductor, and you
could shoot bb sized depleted uranium slugs at close to the speed of light
with a long enough barrel. The atmosphere wouldn't even slow the pellet down
very much.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 5:27 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "Newton's Cradle," but with gain

At 2:46 PM 2/21/2, William Beaty wrote:
>Here's something I've never seen before.  S.Q.Field has discovered a way
>to make an electromagnetic mass driver which uses permanent magnets only.
>It's a variation on "Newton's Cradle", but where the steel ball exits the
>system at much greater velocity than the first ball entered.  (see
>attached message below.)
[snip]
>
>      "http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html"
>
>along with lots of pictures, and an explanation of the science that makes
>it work.


First, let me say SMOTastic!!  8^)   (Inside joke only meant to humorously
invoke memories of the SMOT that was puported to be perpetual motion
device, unlike the subject device.)

This is a really cool idea, despite the fact the web page has the science
all wrong, totally confusing momentum p = m v with energy E = (1/2) m v^2.

Regards,

Horace Heffner


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 13:11:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10841;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:10:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:10:25 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: another story of F E technology repression
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:10:14 -0800
Message-ID: <000501c1bcae$7d9199b0$0501a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020222203236.007a0ba0 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"pTwec2.0.Cf2.1L0Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46270
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

WTF?
This site mentioned this heater inventor sounds like an Art bell show...
Man I have met so many flim flams, this is classic..

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 5:33 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: another story of F E technology repression

Keasy aol.com wrote:

>   Just a thought --- how does this relate to the constitutional
requirement
>that the goverment can not take our property (probably intellectual in this
>case) without just compensation??

I don't know exactly, but this is mainly the DoD doing the "taking." During
WWII it grabbed a lot of land and many buildings way below market price, to
build bases and nuclear bomb plants. It does a lot of nasty stuff in the
name of National Security. Still, you have to have warm spot for Uncle Sam.
This is only government in the world that would hold a press conference to
announce it plans to lie to the press, and then another to say it won't
after all. It is a classic philosophy problem of self-referential
assertions:

1. My next statement will be a lie.

2. I retract my previous statement.

If #1 is true, #2 must be false, and vice versa.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 13:11:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11165;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:11:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:11:20 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530500b89daad668bc [12.21.211.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:14:33 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
Resent-Message-ID: <"x-6Gh.0.Mk2.uL0Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46271
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:59 PM 2/22/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Dennis Cravens (physics tularosa.net) sent me the following food for thought.
[snip advice]

I suggest that this advice is centered on a regime on which extensive work
has failed to produced a commercial device or to produce even widely
reproduced evidence.  To me, this indicates that, despite all the evidence
that there IS likely even more than one anomaly involved in the low energy
electrolytic regime, a significant change in regime is the best strategy at
this time, not refining the unsuccessful.  While it is true that, in terms
of either an Edisonian or an Engineered search method, a search of the
problem space in this low voltage electrolysis regime as barely been
initaited, it appears to me that faster progress might be achieved by
encouraging more researchers to move into a higher voltage regime of 0.5 kV
to 20 kV.  The principle evidence for this lies in the success of Claytor
et al in their thin wire tritium experiments, and with stripping devices
like the fusor.  Also, my own limited amateur experience in the 0.3 - 1.0
kV range indicate some prospective success in obtaining reproducible and
surprising results.  It also seems reasonable that, if there is an
effective low energy fusion regime, that these highly reproducilble
anomalous medium energy experiments might provide starting points for paths
of optimization and discovery.

Of lessor concern is that the suggested use of large area anodes and small
electrode spacing tends to eliminate the possiblity of determining the
thermodyamic properties of the various components of the cell.  The
thermodynamics can be expected to change under differing conditions.  The
advice given by Cravens may help make for a higher COP, but at this stage
of research a high COP should not be a primary goal of research.  The
primary goal should be exploration of the basic science.  Unfortunately,
obtaining funding appropriate to that view is difficult at best.
Similarly, obtaining funding which provides for result sharing is difficult
to obtain.  Due to the stigma, it is also obviously difficult to obtain
academically qualified researchers.

Unfortunately, there may be a method to the madness.  Despite continually
building evidence for significant anomalous physics, the reality of CF,
research funding appears to be suppressed, not just by vested members of
the scientific community who arguably have something to lose, but also by
non-scientists in the political arena.   A reasonable explanation for this
is that a practical result of some kind HAS been obtained, and this would
clearly be a matter of national security.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 13:19:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13001;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:16:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:16:47 -0800
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Cavorite Technology
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:16:37 -0800
Message-ID: <000601c1bcaf$61a24e10$0501a8c0 kitty>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <002401c1bae7$745abd40$8e8f85ce computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"At26m2.0.-A3._Q0Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46272
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jules Verne, wrote a couple of books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/isbn=0877790426/002-4443459-7867212
with the Cavorite.
If I remember, the "cavorite" was plated beneath shutters to use as verneer
thrusters while maneuvering in space.
Also, a Cavorite plate with shutters was used to soft land on the moon. And
return.

A much better , but more real story is Vern's Chase of the golden Meteor
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0803296193/ref=pd_cp_nsr_b_1/002-4443
459-7867212

There is wealth in the sky, lets go Asteroid mining, in our CF/ZPE powered
SSTO mining ship.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:50 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; Puthoff@aol.com; Deubedoo@aol.com
Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net; crquin@rogers.com; fstenger@suite224.net
Subject: Re: Cavorite Technology

Recent calculations suggest that there exists in our Universe, matter that
is a mirror
image of matter as we know it.

IOW, E = mc^2 transposes to E' = m'c^2

thus mass m  = E/c^2   thus  mirror image mass m' = E'/c^2 allowing the
possible
existence of a mirror image of all of the elements and their compounds known
to exist,
with strict adherence to the laws of physics and chemistry.

But, like "Cavorite" a material proposed in a 20th Century Science Fiction
tale, this
matter Repels ordinary matter with a force the same as the Gravitational
Force (Fg):

Fg = - G* m*m'/R^2  where G is the gravitational constant
6.67E-11 nt-meter^2/kg^2.

Based on this premise, the repelling force by our Sun on a kilogram of
Cavorite at a
distance of  ~ 40 A.U. or ~ 6E12
meters (the orbit of the planet Pluto) would be:

6.67E-11 * 2E30*1.0/(6E12)^2 = 3.7E-6 nt

Since F = m'a or a = F/m'  = 3.7E-6 meters/sec^2 a kilogram of "Cavorite"
would be
repelled accelerated away from the sun and our solar system until it was
repelled by
other neighboring Stars.

This should put it into a force equilibrium point somewhere out in the
vicinity of the
Oort Cloud where "clouds" of  it are now effecting the anomalous "slowing
down" of the
Pioneer-10 spacecraft.

Apparently this material (which Is Not Antimatter) exists
throughout the universe as also evidenced by the recent
discovery of "the accelerated expansion rate" of the universe.

Since it takes ~ 64,000,000 joules of energy to take 1.0 kg of ordinary
matter to
escape velocity from the Earth, it will take 64,000,000 joules/kg to bring
"Cavorite"
to the Earth's surface, once it is "mined" from it's deposits in the
vicinity of the
Oort Cloud.

But, once fabricated into weightless vessels (ballasted by ordinary mass
such as water
or sand) it would have many interesting applications.

Even squirting water from such a craft would set up a reactive force plus a
repelling
force for propulsion, all in compliance with the laws of conservation of
energy and
momentum.

Fred










From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 13:32:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19717;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:31:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:31:40 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:31:07 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com> <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE@ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA19697
Resent-Message-ID: <"ox7vE.0._p4.ye0Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46273
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:20:45 -0600:
Hi Ed,
[snip]

>Bulk palladium very seldom works. Use Pd electroplated on Pt instead.
[snip]
>> 15) polishing ( small scratches ? ) may be good. Al or Cr oxides seem to work.
[snip]
Have you tried polishing the Pt before electroplating the Pd?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 13:51:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25807;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:03 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:48:25 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <e63g7ucusb8isa4hbp5nso2tmi3sch0pvk 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com> <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9@computer> <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38@pop.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA25767
Resent-Message-ID: <"UmiIi3.0.2J6.Fv0Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46274
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:58:32 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>      Dr. Ying postulated that in as much as experimental results indicated 
>that cold fusion exists albeit with a very small probability of occurring, 
>the fact that observable results are seen implies that there must be an 
>enhancing mechanism.  He theorized that instead of considering only that 
>there is a small probability of DD fusing into helium, but rather in 
>probability space, the channels such as He + gamma(23.8 MeV) actually 
>exists, although for only a very short period of time.  Dr. Ying further 
>theorized that there exists mechanism to grab this virtual short lived 
>state out of probability space into normal space.  The act of grabbing a 
>virtual state out of probability space is an act of changing 
>probability.  Applying this methodology to cold fusion would bring 
>unlimited inexpensive energy to the
>world.
[snip]
This theory appears to be substantiated from another point of view.
There is at least one patent for a gamma-ray "laser", which bases its
operation on the concept of stimulating the emission of a gamma-ray from
an unstable nucleus, by bombarding it with the same gamma-rays that are
emitted. IOW a long thin "pencil" of a radioactive isotope that is a
normally a gamma emitter can form a gamma-ray "laser".


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 13:55:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29210;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:54:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:54:59 -0800
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:47:25 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Mirror Image Matter, Antigravity,and  Cavorite
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <003b01c1bcb3$ae943180$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <001b01c1bb90$bec12be0$268f85ce computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"CJv442.0.J87.p-0Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46275
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>

> OTOH, since the gravitational repulsive "antigravity" force (Fg = G* m*m'/R^2)
between stellar masses precludes the formation of mirror matter stars the mirror
matter may only be dispersed throughout the universe as primordial mirror matter
Hydrogen (H'). 21 cm "hydrogen" radiation?

There are some really interesting implications as to whether H' might be found
just outside our solar system. Since normal hydrogen has such a high magnetic
moment, can we assume that H' is similarly predisposed, or would it too be
something akin to a mirror image of magnetic moment? If it were a normal
magnetic moment, then there is a preferred distance range in which magnetic
attraction is perfectly balanced with gravitational repulsion in cases where a
mixed cloud of H and H' primordial gas was formed. Could this be why the "Oort
cloud" is where it is?

If a substantial quantity of H' were in the Oort cloud it might be recoverable
with slightly higher technology than chemical rockets, but as the Oort cloud is
a couple of light years out, this would not happen in our lifetimes (unless some
UFO brings us a supply ;-]

However, a closer place for H' might be the Kuiper Belt, the doughnut-shaped
ring of material that extends from the about the orbit of Pluto out to ~4
billion miles from the Sun. We might be able to harvest some from there with
present technology.

Is it premature to get NASA on the line?

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 15:29:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03409;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:25:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:25:41 -0800
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:18:10 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <006001c1bcc0$5c4d5840$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9 computer>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
 <e63g7ucusb8isa4hbp5nso2tmi3sch0pvk 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"IxKRr3.0.Ar.rJ2Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46276
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> This theory appears to be substantiated from another point of view.
> There is at least one patent for a gamma-ray "laser", which bases its
> operation on the concept of stimulating the emission of a gamma-ray from
> an unstable nucleus, by bombarding it with the same gamma-rays that are
> emitted. IOW a long thin "pencil" of a radioactive isotope that is a
> normally a gamma emitter can form a gamma-ray "laser".


Are you referring to Induced Gamma Emission (IGE) technology and a related
technology known as PIXE, or proton (particle) induced x-ray emission? If so,
that's what I had in mind when Dennis Craven's soundbyte first appeared in Jed's
post.

The connection of these technologies to CF is only by analogy, since there is
almost no gamma emission reported from CF cells. The analogy may relate to a
similar methodology in the "extreme ultraviolet" or EUV spectrum, which is
normally unmeasurable. EUV is well-absorbed by every element plus it is well
known that hydrogen has a prominent line in the EUV spectrum at 121+ nm. I don't
know the spectrum for deuterium, right off-hand but it is worth looking into.
This mechanism need NOT involve the shrinkage below ground state.

IGE, Induced Gamma Emission, is a double photon reaction where a low energy
photon actually induces a high energy photon, kind of like that ball and magnet
toy of recent vortex posts. It is usually written as (gamma, gamma'). It was
first discovered in the study of certain "deformed nuclei" and the reaction
potentially  releases significantly more energy than is required as input. In
one well-known case, it is  40 keV in, 2.4 MeV out.

The Center for Quantum Electronics, University of Texas at Dallas, even reports
that the 31-yr half-life for the gamma decay of one deformed isomeric nucleus -
178-Hf - has been accelerated by irradiating it with x-rays. They us a small
dentistry x-ray machine. Their results have been question by Los Alamos,
however.

More background: Whereas most stable nuclei are thought to be basically
spherical, deformed nuclei can range in shape from something like a football or
pear to something closer to a dumbbell. Deuterium is the most prevalent highly
deformed nucleus and also has the greatest level of non-sphericality (if there
is such a word).

Deformed nuclei are a surprisingly under-appreciated subfield of nuclear science
and especially important to the extent that radioactive decay may relate back
somehow to nuclear deformity and its time-based resonance. When deformity is
found in a normally stable isotope, it can indicate that that the nucleus
contains significant pent-up excess energy - but less than enough to make it
radioactive. This is where the analogy to deuterium and Induced Emission
technology comes into play and also a related technology known as PIXE, or
proton (particle) induced x-ray emission.

It is clear from the papers on IGE that up to 60 times more energy, in terms of
photon energy-in (in eV) versus photon energy-out has been reported. The nucleus
does not change otherwise. This is what is meant by this particular (gamma,
gamma') notation - it is soft gamma in, hard gamma out. So apparently the
deformed nucleus acts as if it is trapping an energetic photon which can be
freed by the proper resonant "key." Could the same mechanism work in the EUV
spectrum, either with or  without shrinkage below "ground state"? An (EUV, EUV')
reaction would go far to explaining a number of thorny issues with CF.

There is also a newly developing subfield of IGE which is called PIXE, or proton
induced x-ray emissions-  which might potential relate to cold fusion even more
so than IGE, that is as... what else DIEUV, or deuterium induced EUV emission,
almost theological, no?  If any of this speculation is true, the important
question is whether or not the CF energy anomaly can be made to happen on
demand, as Ying suggests.

It would be nice to know exactly whatever became of Ying's efforts, after all he
is a respected PhD... and a trip to Orlando does sound pretty inviting....

Regards,

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 17:51:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24906;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:49:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:49:04 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b89de89aeb9f [12.21.209.208]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:52:30 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Resent-Message-ID: <"POgHf.0.356.FQ4Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46277
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:48 AM 2/24/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>This theory appears to be substantiated from another point of view.
>There is at least one patent for a gamma-ray "laser", which bases its
>operation on the concept of stimulating the emission of a gamma-ray from
>an unstable nucleus, by bombarding it with the same gamma-rays that are
>emitted. IOW a long thin "pencil" of a radioactive isotope that is a
>normally a gamma emitter can form a gamma-ray "laser".


I have a very serious question about this to ask:  Why do nucleii not
radiate?  The energy and momentum quatities inside a nucleus vastly exceed
energy and momentum quantum magnitudes.  Except for dimension, spin and
magnetic moment, nothing is happening at a quantized level, at least such
that the quantization should be detectable against the background.  It is
difficult to see how quantization can apply to the physics of nuclear black
body radiation, for example.  What keeps the nucleus from radiating?  From
the above comments we apparently know nucleii can be pumped up and
stimulated like atoms in a laser.  How is this so?  There are no quantized
orbitals to pump.

We know from the dimensions of the nucleus that the Heisenberg uncertainty
guarantees a high average momentum for the nuclear constituents.  We know
for a fact that nucelii are very hot (see ref below.)  Why don't they
radiate unless stimulated?

It is this very notion, that a small stimulus plus the momentum, and thus
energy, due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, that is key to the
magnetic orbital theory of stripping I have suggested.  It is this
principle that shows how a small energetic boost can undo a 2.22 MeV bond.
The excess energy is permanently extracted from the ZPE sea by using the
well organized kinetic momentum from the polarized deuterium nucleus to
break the bond.   The main unanswered question in my mind at this point is
why don't energetic nucleii continually radiate?   It is experimentally
clear that they do not, even though they possess temperatures above a
billion K.  It is experimentally clear that nucleii are a storehouse of
kinetic energy.  For that reason I suppose it is not key to the magnetic
orbital theory to prove that nucleii do not continually radiate away their
kinetic energy, because it is an experimentally proven fact.  Nucleii
simply do not radiate in a manner consistent with the Plack radiation law.
They apparently don't even radiate at all, except in large chunks, or in
association with external interactions.  Why don't nucleii radiate?  I
suspect the answer may relate to Puthoff's ZPF theory of why ground state
atoms do not radiate.  I believe the answer may be that the radiation
energy is essentially cancelled by radiant energy continually extracted
from the ZPE sea by the nuclear motions.  I would appreciate hearing a good
and serious answer if someone has one.

The magnetic orbital can barely be called an orbital at all, except that
the angular momentum and thus its motion lies in the plane normal to the
axis of spin.  This is due to the fact that the dipole force varies from
being a 1/r^4 force for distant dipoles to a 1/r^2 force for overlapping
dipoles.  The motion might even be considered more of a vibration than
orbit, with the proton moving back and forth through the neutron in a
ghostly fashion.   The kinetic energy of the orbital varies due to the
Heisenbergh uncertainty associated with the small orbit dimension. This
momentum variation might be called ZPE vibration.  At times the ZPE
vibration reinforces the natural orbital vibration and at other times, it
diminishes it.  For this reason, external interaction with the D nucleus
produces non-deterministic results.  However, the ZPE vibration is so large
that only a small proportion of the bond energy need be supplied on average
to break the bond, provided it is applied in the correct plane.  The
utilization of this principle, in effect, provides a Maxwell's demon, in
fact the bond itself, to separate out useful but free "hot" motion from the
less useful "cold" motion states.

This concept of stimulating the detuterium nucleus with a triggering amount
of energy, about 20 keV, to recover the 2.22 MeV obtained from the p + n ->
D reaction, is a form of perpetual motion, a free energy scheme.  Of course
it is not free energy at all, it is merely an unlimited credit card on the
universal bank.  It would be useful to know why the nucleus banks this
energy in the first place.  It acts like a branch office to the universal
bank, kindly saving the ZPE energy for a withdrawal in its little vault.
It would be very useful to know why it does this, why the vault holds the
goods.


At 11:32 AM 8/16/99, AIP listserver wrote:
>PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
>The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
>Number 443  August 16, 1999   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
>Stein
>
>NUCLEAR THERMOMETER.  How hot is it inside the nucleus
>of a dysprosium atom (element 62, abbreviated Dy)?  Temperature
>is a statistical concept that normally applies to an ensemble of
>many particles, such as air molecules or a gas of atoms kept in a
>bottle.  Inside a heavy nucleus, swarming with protons and
>neutrons (collectively called nucleons) it's not so easy to define
>temperature, owing to the many pairing and other inter-nucleon
>interactions that take place, but it can be done.  The nuclear
>environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei together and then
>carefully measuring the photons that fly out: high energy gamma
>rays, in this case, rather than the visible and infrared photons that
>come out of heated-up atomic gases.  In this way, physicists at the
>University of Oslo have deduced the temperature inside a Dy
>nucleus (in effect, a gas of 162 nucleons) to be 6 billion K.  It can
>be said, therefore, that even in winter parts of Norway (very small
>parts) remain quite warm.   This is the first time a nuclear
>temperature has been measured strictly on the basis of the spectrum
>of gammas emitted.  (E. Melby et al., Physical Review Letters,
>tent. 30 August 1999; contact Magne Guttormsen,
>magne.guttormsen fys.uio.no, 011-47-2285-6460.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 20:04:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09054;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:07 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7858E4.DAD1B547 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:07:17 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com> <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE@ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wxh-U.0.JD2.-M6Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46278
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Yes, Robin, I tried polishing.  However, success or failure is dependent on so many
other variables that it is hard to tell what is good and what is bad.  However, by
using Pd electroplated on Pt, I have increase the reproducibility from about 10% to
about 50%.  Once 100% is achieved using any combination of variables, then changes
can be made with some hope of relating the result to the variable being changed.
Unfortunately, only many very well controlled experiments can hope to untangle the
variables, experiments that can not be done without much more support. More
important, the P-F method is the worst of the several methods to study and it has no
hope of being commercialized.  Therefore, I wish this method would not be used as
the gold standard of CF and debated over and over again.

Ed

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:20:45 -0600:
> Hi Ed,
> [snip]
>
> >Bulk palladium very seldom works. Use Pd electroplated on Pt instead.
> [snip]
> >> 15) polishing ( small scratches ? ) may be good. Al or Cr oxides seem to work.
> [snip]
> Have you tried polishing the Pt before electroplating the Pd?
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 22:25:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22638;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:23:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:23:18 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:22:43 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <bjvg7u8rv95q7glambpduknkgcot86qaea 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com> <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9@computer> <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38@pop.mindspring.com> <e63g7ucusb8isa4hbp5nso2tmi3sch0pvk@4ax.com> <006001c1bcc0$5c4d5840$8837fea9@computer>
In-Reply-To: <006001c1bcc0$5c4d5840$8837fea9 computer>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA22597
Resent-Message-ID: <"saXRt3.0.dX5.MR8Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46279
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:18:10 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>> This theory appears to be substantiated from another point of view.
>> There is at least one patent for a gamma-ray "laser", which bases its
>> operation on the concept of stimulating the emission of a gamma-ray from
>> an unstable nucleus, by bombarding it with the same gamma-rays that are
>> emitted. IOW a long thin "pencil" of a radioactive isotope that is a
>> normally a gamma emitter can form a gamma-ray "laser".
>
>
>Are you referring to Induced Gamma Emission (IGE) technology and a related
>technology known as PIXE, or proton (particle) induced x-ray emission? If so,
>that's what I had in mind when Dennis Craven's soundbyte first appeared in Jed's
>post.

I don't think so. IGE (IMO) is more a matter of the half-life of an
isotope being altered by placing the nucleus in a higher energy state
from which it is able to decay rapidly. I.e. while normally in a state
in which decay is "forbidden", only a small amount of energy is required
to raise it to a different state from which decay is not forbidden.

The gamma-ray laser OTOH, appears to work by resonating with the nucleus
such that decay from the current state is triggered, i.e. the external
signal changes the conditions which make the current state forbidden. 
This is more along the lines that Ying was talking about IMO.
It's as though by deliberately inducing the oscillation associated with
the transition between states, the initial and final states are mixed
allowing the transition to occur.
(Note that if this were the same thing as IGE, then one might expect to
see photons with quantised energies radiate from the device, as follows.

Suppose that the nucleus is in a state with energy X, which is forbidden
from decaying to a state with energy Y, but yet by absorption of a small
amount of energy can be excited to a state W, from which decay to Y is
easy. Then emission of a photon could raise another nucleus from X to W
while the initial photon would be reduced in energy by an amount W minus
X (W-X). Then a photon with energy (W-Y) would be produced by the second
nucleus. Since (W-X) is small compared to (W-Y), the first photon could
go on to trigger multiple other nuclei, losing (W-X) each time. This
leads to a whole raft of photons of different energy being produced,
however all differing by (W-X), with (W-Y) at the top.
Though I don't know this for a fact, I don't think this was evident in
the gamma-ray laser.

>
>The connection of these technologies to CF is only by analogy, since there is
>almost no gamma emission reported from CF cells. 

Normally not, however one presumes that there was from those that Ying
used, otherwise there would have been no reason to assume that the
theory was correct. (Unless alpha particles can produce the same result,
though I personally have difficulties with this as a concept, as I don't
see how an alpha particle can "resonate" with a nuclear state).


>The analogy may relate to a
>similar methodology in the "extreme ultraviolet" or EUV spectrum, which is
>normally unmeasurable. EUV is well-absorbed by every element plus it is well
>known that hydrogen has a prominent line in the EUV spectrum at 121+ nm. I don't
>know the spectrum for deuterium, right off-hand but it is worth looking into.
>This mechanism need NOT involve the shrinkage below ground state.

For any net energy to come out of the system, something has to give.
In the case of gamma ray emission discussed above, one starts out with
long-half life metastable radioactive nuclei, and ends up with stable
nuclei (AFAIK).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 23 22:53:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA06200;
	Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:50:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:50:49 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:50:16 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <if2h7u49mn2jbodv6jb4uoo9k516cpgfmn 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b89de89aeb9f [12.21.209.208]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b89de89aeb9f [12.21.209.208]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA06173
Resent-Message-ID: <"pMScK3.0.oW1.9r8Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46280
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:52:30
-0900:
Hi,
>At 8:48 AM 2/24/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>This theory appears to be substantiated from another point of view.
>>There is at least one patent for a gamma-ray "laser", which bases its
>>operation on the concept of stimulating the emission of a gamma-ray from
>>an unstable nucleus, by bombarding it with the same gamma-rays that are
>>emitted. IOW a long thin "pencil" of a radioactive isotope that is a
>>normally a gamma emitter can form a gamma-ray "laser".
>
>
>I have a very serious question about this to ask:  Why do nucleii not
>radiate?  

I suspect that the main reason is that it is unlikely. First consider
that your notion of nuclei as balls filled with energetic particles
racing around, is completely wrong. 
Suppose instead that they are essentially solid crystals, analogous to
salt crystals, where two forces are at work, a short range nuclear
force, and a long range electrostatic force.
This results in something akin to a box of magnets, adjust one slightly,
and the whole box full rearranges itself.
IOW the short range nuclear force tends to keep things static, until a
major change is introduced from outside.

Now consider a nucleus that could achieve a lower over all energy state
if two nuclei at opposite ends of the nucleus were to flip their spins
concurrently. However if only one of them flips it's spin, then the
overall energy state of the nucleus is higher than that of the original
nucleus.
Now we have an IGE type situation. Add 40 keV (e.g.), and you flip the
spin of one of the two nuclei. Then the minimum energy configuration is
easily attained by the other nucleon also flipping its spin.

This means BTW that nuclei are not "hot". The energy in radioactive
nuclei is present in the form of potential energy, not in the form of
kinetic energy, hence no "temperature".


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 03:48:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA14339;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 03:46:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 03:46:07 -0800
Message-ID: <012101c1bd2b$1222d2c0$858291c2 pc>
From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <Vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Hydrogen generation
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:02:01 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011E_01C1BD2B.117358E0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"WCWES3.0.xV3.-9DUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46281
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C1BD2B.117358E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Guys- Have a dilemma !,

Assuming availability of a H2 and O gas mix ( 2:1) from electrolysis =
what current methods ( Guidelines being -Commercially available, =
Competitively priced, good efficiency, small physical size, ) are =
available to separate the 2 gasses?

Is there any Osmotic/ membrane Tech for this??

Also - From what I can see there seems to be no advantage of higher than =
about 2 volts as a driving voltage for conventional electrolysis, =
therefore will one incur efficiency loss,s through using 12 volts ( =
Thats what available)?=20
Of what order are these likely to be ?.

Thanks for any input on this .
_______________________________________________________
Noel D. Whitney
Quantum Leap Limited
52 Watson Road,
Killiney,
Co Dublin,
Ireland.
Tel: 00 353 1 2854626
why not visit our website at: www.quantumleap.ie

------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C1BD2B.117358E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Guys- Have a dilemma !,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Assuming availability of a H2 and O gas =
mix ( 2:1)=20
from electrolysis what current methods ( Guidelines being -Commercially=20
available, Competitively priced, good efficiency, small physical size, ) =
are=20
available to separate the 2 gasses?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is there any Osmotic/ membrane Tech for =

this??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Also - From what I can see there seems =
to be no=20
advantage of higher than about 2 volts as a driving voltage for =
conventional=20
electrolysis, therefore will one incur efficiency loss,s through using =
12 volts=20
( Thats what available)? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of what order are these likely to be=20
?.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for any input on this =
.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>_______________________________________________________<BR>Noel =
D.=20
Whitney<BR>Quantum Leap Limited<BR>52 Watson Road,<BR>Killiney,<BR>Co=20
Dublin,<BR>Ireland.<BR>Tel: 00 353 1 2854626<BR>why not visit our =
website at: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.quantumleap.ie">www.quantumleap.ie</A></FONT></DIV></B=
ODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C1BD2B.117358E0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 07:09:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07352;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:06:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:06:31 -0800
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:59:00 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen generation
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001001c1bd43$cb6d9720$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <012101c1bd2b$1222d2c0$858291c2 pc>
Resent-Message-ID: <"HS_n12.0.jo1.t5GUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46282
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>

....Is there any Osmotic/ membrane Tech for this??

Yes, but the inexpensive version (non Pd) of the technology is not as readily
available or mature as you might think, given all the emphasis on fuel cells.
When you go to actually buy a separation membrane, the suppliers seem to want
you to sign away all future rights, etc...you'll see.

The way of the future for proton separation membranes is ceramic for high
temperature and plastics for low. The intersting application of this from the
Cold Fusion point of view, since that is already an electrolysis cell, is that
energy conversion may be as simple as maximizing of H2 production with a high
temp proton memebrane...then connecting to a fuel cell...

Here is a site of interest:
http://www.et.anl.gov/sections/ceramics/research/ceram_mem.html

Ceramic Membrane Development
"The Ceramics Section is developing dense ceramic membranes for separating
hydrogen from gas mixtures as part of the effort by the DOE Office of Fossil
Energy (FE) to maximize the use of vast domestic fossil resources and ensure a
fuel-diverse energy sector while responding to global environmental concerns.
The development of cost-effective membrane-based reactor and separation
technologies is of considerable interest for applications in advanced coal-based
power and fuel technologies. Because concerns over global climate change are
driving nations to reduce CO2 emissions, hydrogen is considered the fuel of
choice for both electric power and transportation industries. While it is likely
that renewable energy sources will ultimately be used to generate hydrogen,
fossil-based technologies will be utilized in the interim to generate
hydrogen."...

BTW, inasmuch as you are from Ireland and involved in energy applications, did
you look into the recent hoopla from I think his name was Jasker? Any inside
info?

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 07:10:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08291;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:10:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:10:24 -0800
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:02:53 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001a01c1bd44$55a53240$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9 computer>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
 <e63g7ucusb8isa4hbp5nso2tmi3sch0pvk 4ax.com>
 <006001c1bcc0$5c4d5840$8837fea9 computer>
 <bjvg7u8rv95q7glambpduknkgcot86qaea 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"PbL_P3.0.T12.V9GUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46283
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> For any net energy to come out of the system, something has to give.
> In the case of gamma ray emission discussed above, one starts out with
> long-half life metastable radioactive nuclei, and ends up with stable
> nuclei (AFAIK).

Did you ever look at deuterium as just such as nuclei?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 11:56:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30342;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:53:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:53:19 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b89eecb691cb [12.21.211.123]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:56:41 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Resent-Message-ID: <"3z46s.0.wP7.lIKUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46284
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:50 PM 2/24/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>I have a very serious question about this to ask:  Why do nucleii not
>>radiate?
>
>I suspect that the main reason is that it is unlikely. First consider
>that your notion of nuclei as balls filled with energetic particles
>racing around, is completely wrong.


It is not strictly my notion.  Can you explain the following article?  Are
you saying the 6 billion K temperature of Dy represents merely potential
energy?  If so, why the temperature concept at all?  There would simply be
energized or "excited" states Dy* and a non-energized "ground" state Dy.
Something would have to excite the Dy.  It would not have a "temperature"
associated with its ground state.  An excited Dy* should be expected to
ultimately have to decay into a Dy.  For that matter, if Dy did not have a
temperature associated with its ground state, then Heisenberg uncertainty
is completely denied.  It is necessary that finite momentum be associated
with the various masses in the nucleus.  It is also well known that nucleii
are lumpy, as are nucleons themselves, which consist of quarks.  The quarks
move around, governed by the color force.  In fact, the "zero point"
temperature of a nucleon should be much larger than the nucleus.  It is
reasonable to expect that the changing shape of the nucleon boundaries, due
to internal heat, should transfer momentum to adjacent nucleons, and thus
to the surrounding nucleus in general.  It appears the momenta and energies
involved are far too large for quantumization to have any observable
effect; the discreetness of the energy states would not be observable.
None of this denies the wave nature of matter. It is reasonable that quarks
and nucleons are fuzzy, their positions not fixed, also due to Heisenberg.
They exhibit wave-like natures and have deBroglie wavelengths.  However, if
they possess large kinetic energies, then the wavelenegths associatesd with
their large momenta makes them very small, unlike the electron in the atom,
which has no relative motion of its center of mass or center of charge with
respect to the nucleus unless acted upon by an external force.  Of course,
that external force can be zero point energy, even at absolute zero, but
the electron is light and large, so the zero point energy for it is small.
It literally CAN be viewed as crystalized about the nucleus.  The nucleons
themselves seem to me to be another matter.  No force is infinite.  All
particle masses operated on by forces have degrees of freedom.  This
permits kinetic and angular momentum in any two body (or larger) system,
and thus the possibility of heat, whether the two bodies are viewed as
wave-like or not.  Heisenberg necessitates a minimum heat, and thus motion
and therefore acceleration.  If there is acceleration of charged bodies,
then why no radiation?


At 11:32 AM 8/16/99, AIP listserver wrote:
>PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
>The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
>Number 443  August 16, 1999   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
>Stein
>
>NUCLEAR THERMOMETER.  How hot is it inside the nucleus
>of a dysprosium atom (element 62, abbreviated Dy)?  Temperature
>is a statistical concept that normally applies to an ensemble of
>many particles, such as air molecules or a gas of atoms kept in a
>bottle.  Inside a heavy nucleus, swarming with protons and
>neutrons (collectively called nucleons) it's not so easy to define
>temperature, owing to the many pairing and other inter-nucleon
>interactions that take place, but it can be done.  The nuclear
>environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei together and then
>carefully measuring the photons that fly out: high energy gamma
>rays, in this case, rather than the visible and infrared photons that
>come out of heated-up atomic gases.  In this way, physicists at the
>University of Oslo have deduced the temperature inside a Dy
>nucleus (in effect, a gas of 162 nucleons) to be 6 billion K.  It can
>be said, therefore, that even in winter parts of Norway (very small
>parts) remain quite warm.   This is the first time a nuclear
>temperature has been measured strictly on the basis of the spectrum
>of gammas emitted.  (E. Melby et al., Physical Review Letters,
>tent. 30 August 1999; contact Magne Guttormsen,
>magne.guttormsen fys.uio.no, 011-47-2285-6460.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 12:04:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02149;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:03:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:03:35 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b89ef6fefc21 [12.21.209.179]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:07:04 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen generation
Resent-Message-ID: <"_JpPh.0.QX.MSKUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46285
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 3:02 AM 2/24/2, Noel Whitney wrote:
>Guys- Have a dilemma !,
>
>Assuming availability of a H2 and O gas mix ( 2:1) from electrolysis what
>current methods ( Guidelines being -Commercially available, Competitively
>priced, good efficiency, small physical size, ) are available to separate
>the 2 gasses?
>
>Is there any Osmotic/ membrane Tech for this??


Yes.  I suspect the best is merely a PD foil.  Scott Little
<little earthtech.org> of Earthtech used a Pd foil to filter his hydrogen
supplies see <www.earthech.org>.  I am not sure about the energy
requirements for your intended separating of stoichiometric quantities of
oxygen from the hydrogen.  I do know the Pd foils are very transparent to
hydrogen though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 13:57:12 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12150;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:54:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:54:33 -0800
Message-ID: <3C799AB2.5D2A bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:00:18 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: H2 Toyota in 2003
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"fhfKh1.0.mz2.P4MUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46286
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/25Feb2002_news40.html

Toyota to make car fuelled by hydrogen 

Tokyo _ Toyota Motor Corp hopes to become the world's first automaker to
launch a hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle for commercial use by
marketing a car using the futuristic technology next year, a report said
yesterday.

Toyota plans to start selling its environmentally friendly FCHV-4 in
Tokyo by summer in 2003, the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper reported.

Fuel cell cars run on energy produced in a chemical reaction combining
hydrogen and oxygen, making them virtually pollution-free.

Major automakers have been developing fuel cell vehicles, but a high
price has kept the cars out of showrooms. Toyota's version will cost
about 10 million yen ($75,000), making the target customer large
corporations and the government.

The launch will initially be limited to Tokyo because hydrogen
refuelling stations are being set up in the capital. The top speed of
the FCVH-4, which stands for ``fuel cell hybrid vehicle,'' is 150
kilometres an hour and it has a cruising range of more than 250 kms. The
car is modelled after Toyota's Kluger V sport-utility vehicle, which is
marketed in North America as the Highlander. _ AP 

<end>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 14:30:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23255;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:12 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen generation
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:26:38 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <nspi7u8ihv101bct8ta8bb9niu00fitpcu 4ax.com>
References: <012101c1bd2b$1222d2c0$858291c2 pc>
In-Reply-To: <012101c1bd2b$1222d2c0$858291c2 pc>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA23231
Resent-Message-ID: <"SZvIg.0.Fh5.0ZMUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46287
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Noel Whitney's message of Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:02:01 -0000:
Hi,

>Guys- Have a dilemma !,
>
>Assuming availability of a H2 and O gas mix ( 2:1) from electrolysis what current methods ( Guidelines being -Commercially available, Competitively priced, good efficiency, small physical size, ) are available to separate the 2 gasses?
>
>Is there any Osmotic/ membrane Tech for this??
[snip]
You may find that, despite the inefficiency of an IC engine you may
actually end up with a larger energy output from burning the H2/O2
mixture with air in such an engine than you would get from separating
the gases and combining them in a fuel cell.
(This due to possible hydrino formation in the IC engine, during
combustion).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 18:51:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA20914;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:48:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:48:09 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <6c.1805b682.29aaffc6 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:47:34 EST
Subject: need adcice on nano powder for experiments
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"zBh_K.0.d65.eNQUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46288
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I know of two powders in the 50nm range.

Zinc Oxide used in suntan lotion.

Titianum Oxide used as a white paint pigment.

Can anyone tell me more about this stuff?  Are there other commonly used 
compounds in the 50nm meter range of size?

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 19:11:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29836;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:10:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:10:23 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:09:48 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <r9aj7u49teold6brl6kf2kf5fg4lja1grr 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com> <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9@computer> <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38@pop.mindspring.com> <e63g7ucusb8isa4hbp5nso2tmi3sch0pvk@4ax.com> <006001c1bcc0$5c4d5840$8837fea9@computer> <b
jvg7u8rv95q7glambpduknkgcot86qaea 4ax.com> <001a01c1bd44$55a53240$8837fea9@computer>
In-Reply-To: <001a01c1bd44$55a53240$8837fea9 computer>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA29794
Resent-Message-ID: <"hfw1V.0.6I7.ViQUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46289
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:02:53 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>> For any net energy to come out of the system, something has to give.
>> In the case of gamma ray emission discussed above, one starts out with
>> long-half life metastable radioactive nuclei, and ends up with stable
>> nuclei (AFAIK).
>
>Did you ever look at deuterium as just such as nuclei?
>
>Jones
AFAIK, there are no metastable states of D.
(contrasted with e.g. Hf-178, which has two).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 24 19:25:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01817;
	Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:22:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:22:45 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen generation
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:22:11 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <ndbj7uoj76r9t56abvp4moqc7eb660q729 4ax.com>
References: <v01530501b89ef6fefc21 [12.21.209.179]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b89ef6fefc21 [12.21.209.179]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA01788
Resent-Message-ID: <"Q0fIo1.0.JS.5uQUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46290
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:07:04
-0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>Yes.  I suspect the best is merely a PD foil.  Scott Little
><little earthtech.org> of Earthtech used a Pd foil to filter his hydrogen
>supplies see <www.earthech.org>.  I am not sure about the energy
>requirements for your intended separating of stoichiometric quantities of
>oxygen from the hydrogen.  I do know the Pd foils are very transparent to
>hydrogen though.
[snip]
Isn't a Pd foil likely to catalyze combustion in this case?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 06:04:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15905;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:02:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:02:05 -0800
Message-ID: <001101c1bdfc$69030b60$9f8f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>, <fstenger@suite224.net>,
        <puthoff aol.com>, <crquin@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Mirror Image Matter, Antigravity, and Comet Tails
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:59:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"AxYg_2.0.Pu3.SFaUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46291
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If comets contain Gravity Repelling Mirror Image Matter Compounds, such as water
(H'xOy or HxO'y), hydrocarbons (CyH'x or C'xHy), and "dust", etc., mixed with regular
matter (ice) that are repelled by the gravitational field of the Sun, it wouldn't be a
stretch of the imagination to see why the tail of a comet (ablation) is so extensive
even out beyond 10.0 A.U. where the solar radiation intensity is less than 10 watts
per square meter.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 06:33:53 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27127;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:31:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:31:17 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:31:28 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <3C7858E4.DAD1B547 ix.netcom.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"RRVRl2.0.bd6.qgaUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46292
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Edmund Storms wrote:

>Once 100% is achieved using any combination of variables, then changes can 
>be made with some hope of relating the result to the variable being 
>changed. Unfortunately, only many very well controlled experiments can 
>hope to untangle the variables, experiments that can not be done without 
>much more support. More important, the P-F method is the worst of the 
>several methods to study and it has no hope of being 
>commercialized.  Therefore, I wish this method would not be used as the 
>gold standard of CF and debated over and over again.

100 percent reproducibility was reported by Toyota, NRL and Mitsubishi. 
Palladium is difficult to work with, but it has achieved the highest power 
density on record as far as I know. I think it is too early to dismiss 
palladium. It is much too soon to say palladium cannot be used for 
commercial applications. You would have to invest hundreds of millions of 
dollars in R&D to determine this.

Palladium is the gold standard only because far more research has been done 
on it than any other material.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 06:37:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA29549;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:37:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:37:17 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:29:43 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001101c1be08$df013a60$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <004701c1bbed$7503a160$8837fea9 computer>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020222175415.00b0ec38 pop.mindspring.com>
 <e63g7ucusb8isa4hbp5nso2tmi3sch0pvk 4ax.com>
 <006001c1bcc0$5c4d5840$8837fea9 computer>
 <bjvg7u8rv95q7glambpduknkgcot86qaea 4ax.com>
 <001a01c1bd44$55a53240$8837fea9 computer>
 <r9aj7u49teold6brl6kf2kf5fg4lja1grr 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"e20Sr3.0.cD7.TmaUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46293
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> AFAIK, there are no metastable states of D.

I believe you are incorrect on this but not alone.

I have contended for some time that there is vital information on D that has
either intentionally or unintentionally been withheld from textbooks and even
authoritative treatments.  This is not conspiracy theory, and neither is it idle
ranting - probably just a mild convergence of inadvertence with ignorance. For
instance, we know that deuterium will undergo spontaneous decay yet it is never
listed as radioactive. Read the details of the Sudbury neutrino experiments and
you can pick up some of these details.

BTW Neutrons are commonly produced as spallation products from muon passage
through the ~one thousand tons of deuterium at Sudbury, but that is different
from spontaneous beta decay, which may or may not be neutrino triggered - that
is immaterial as there is no place in the galaxy that is shielded from
neutrinos,

Some time ago I posted some anectodatal information from a retired  CANDU
engineer regarding unpublished testing done on D2O that had been removed from
their reactors. He contends that are dozens of metastable states ranging from
hours to weeks and that the "stuff is basically unstable" once it has been
irradiated. Whether these are true isomers or not is a technical issue that is
unrelated to CF applications as these states are at the very least "virtual
isomers."

Of course, this kind of reactor irradiation is not even close to the same
conditions as are found in CF and it is very true that a couple of days in an
electrolytic cell is a far cry from several years in a CANDU reactor, but there
could be at least one metastable state that is electron induced, or equally
probable, induced by "pumping" from "close encounters", i.e deuterium impinging
on deuterium with pion exchanges in a matrix.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 06:47:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00921;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:46:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:46:49 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:39:13 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Mirror Image Matter, Antigravity, and Comet Tails
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001701c1be0a$320abf00$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <001101c1bdfc$69030b60$9f8f85ce computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"XFSo23.0.0E.NvaUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46294
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>


> If comets contain Gravity Repelling Mirror Image Matter Compounds, such as
water
> (H'xOy or HxO'y), hydrocarbons (CyH'x or C'xHy), and "dust", etc., mixed with
regular
> matter (ice) that are repelled by the gravitational field of the Sun, it
wouldn't be a
> stretch of the imagination to see why the tail of a comet (ablation) is so
extensive
> even out beyond 10.0 A.U. where the solar radiation intensity is less than 10
watts
> per square meter.  :-)

Might also explain why, if the Tunguska Impact of 1908 was caused by a comet
containing "Gravity Repelling Mirror Image Matter Compounds" (I liked Cavorite
better) and not an asteroid, that it didn't make actual impact.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 07:19:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12393;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:16:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:16:42 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7A487F.740C78AD ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:21:54 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
	 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"oKQp11.0.Y13.QLbUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46295
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Once 100% is achieved using any combination of variables, then changes can
> >be made with some hope of relating the result to the variable being
> >changed. Unfortunately, only many very well controlled experiments can
> >hope to untangle the variables, experiments that can not be done without
> >much more support. More important, the P-F method is the worst of the
> >several methods to study and it has no hope of being
> >commercialized.  Therefore, I wish this method would not be used as the
> >gold standard of CF and debated over and over again.
>
> 100 percent reproducibility was reported by Toyota, NRL and Mitsubishi.
> Palladium is difficult to work with, but it has achieved the highest power
> density on record as far as I know. I think it is too early to dismiss
> palladium. It is much too soon to say palladium cannot be used for
> commercial applications. You would have to invest hundreds of millions of
> dollars in R&D to determine this.

Jed, I was complaining about the P-F method, not about the general use of
palladium.  When Pd is used in a P-F cell, the production of excess energy is
not reproducible in the normal use of the word.  Yes, certain batches can
produce a high number of active samples, but these batches are rare. Also,
once an active sample is obtained, it will make heat every time it is
studied.  However, neither of these experiences can be considered to be
examples of reproducibility in that someone can set up a cell, buy some
palladium, and make excess energy most of the time.

>
>
> Palladium is the gold standard only because far more research has been done
> on it than any other material.

The P-F method is the gold standard I'm talking about.  Critics always refer
to this method when judging the reality of CANR and attempts at a theory
always use observations based on this method.  Totally ignored are the more
interesting and more reproducible methods.  The P-F method is only attractive
because it is cheap and simple to use, but it requires great skill to make
successful and even more skill to interpret the results.

As for palladium, this metal can be made active, but so can other materials.
Why do the people proposing explanations always focus only on this material?
I would think an explanation able to be applied to any material and able to
predict active materials would be more useful than one only applicable to Pd.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 07:32:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17474;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:31:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:31:07 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100302b89f5b4cc9d1 [63.233.196.126]>
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:29:27 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Jed's list
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"UUfvx1.0.xG4.wYbUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46296
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>
>
>Thought I would start making a list. Please add your thoughts to the list.
>Perhaps if everyone started to add, we might get a better picture.
>Cold Fusion lessons to date -:


I think this is a great idea, Jed. You will recall my question about 
the resulting anomalous isotopic ratios. Do any of you have 
information on these ratios, and what isotopes are being observed.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 07:51:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24325;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:48:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:48:30 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104801.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:48:43 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's list
In-Reply-To: <a05100302b89f5b4cc9d1 [63.233.196.126]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"SrCaU.0.px5.DpbUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46297
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

thomas malloy wrote:









>>Thought I would start making a list. Please add your thoughts to the list.
>>Perhaps if everyone started to add, we might get a better picture.
>>Cold Fusion lessons to date -:
>
>
>I think this is a great idea, Jed.

Actually, I was quoting Dennis Cravens, but it is a good idea.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 08:17:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01713;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:14:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:14:00 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:14:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <3C7A487F.740C78AD ix.netcom.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"imhj21.0.VQ.8BcUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46298
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Edmund Storms wrote:

>Jed, I was complaining about the P-F method, not about the general use of 
>palladium.  When Pd is used in a P-F cell, the production of excess energy 
>is not reproducible in the normal use of the word.  Yes, certain batches 
>can produce a high number of active samples, but these batches are rare.

Not according to Fleischmann, Iwamura, or Miles & Imam. They say they can 
produce palladium alloys that work 100% of the time in a P-F cell. 
Unfortunately this material is not available for testing 
because  Fleischmann is retired, Iwamura is not authorized to share 
material (and he usually uses gas loading now), and many years ago the Navy 
ordered Miles & Imam not to make any more material or to discuss the 
research with anyone. The gag rule has been rescinded, but they are still 
not allowed to make palladium-boron cathodes. Politics prevent widespread 
100% reproducibility in cold fusion. The technical problems were solved six 
years ago.


>Also, once an active sample is obtained, it will make heat every time it 
>is studied.

That is what F., I. and M&I say, too.


>However, neither of these experiences can be considered to be examples of 
>reproducibility in that someone can set up a cell, buy some
>palladium, and make excess energy most of the time.

Anyone would be able to do this were it not for politics, oppression and 
censorship. The limitations are not technical. If Miles were given the 
normal academic freedom a Fellow is supposed to be granted, we would have 
100% reproducibility.

Just because the problem is politics, that does not make it easy to solve. 
Politics and oppression can be as intractable as any technical problem.


>The P-F method is the gold standard I'm talking about. Critics always 
>refer to this method when judging the reality of CANR and attempts at a 
>theory always use observations based on this method.

Most critics have not read the literature and do not realize that 
Fleischmann and others have made this method 100% reproducible.


>Totally ignored are the more interesting and more reproducible methods.

Which is more reproducible? Perhaps you mean more easily reproduced.


>As for palladium, this metal can be made active, but so can other 
>materials. Why do the people proposing explanations always focus only on 
>this material?

Because they are ignorant. They do not realize other metals can be made 
active. Also, to be fair, there is little solid, published evidence for 
these other metals. I have not seen any really convincing results for 
nickel, which is supposed to be the most widely used alternative. Dramatic 
claims for nickel were made years ago by Mills, Piantelli and others, but 
each reported method is different and not a single one has been replicated 
as far as I know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 09:00:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21382;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:55:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:55:03 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:47:28 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <003e01c1be1c$1cc94a00$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"TXMfu3.0.0E5.cncUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46299
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> Edmund Storms wrote:
> >Jed, I was complaining about the P-F method, not about the general use of
> >palladium.  When Pd is used in a P-F cell, the production of excess energy
> >is not reproducible in the normal use of the word.  Yes, certain batches
> >can produce a high number of active samples, but these batches are rare.

> Not according to Fleischmann, Iwamura, or Miles & Imam. They say they can
> produce palladium alloys that work 100% of the time in a P-F cell.
> Unfortunately this material is not available for testing...

This is untenable posturing.

For the observers who don't  believe Fieshman, Toyota, Miles, etc. which is 99+%
of all scientists, then they are left in roughly the same position as are the
skeptics when some fly-by night inventor say  he invented anit-gravity but sorry
you can't test it because the craft just flew off into outer space...

This kind of talk about 100% reproducibility should be ignored or at least
accompanied by a strong caveat. If those people really have it, then they should
allow independent replication, that is "put up or shut up."

I offer this with the same degree of sarcasm that Jed Rothwell extends to
Randell Mills when Mills says he has dozens of independent replications...only
they all have been done with strong NDAs and no one will talk in public about
it.

No more, or no less, accomodation should be accorded to Fieshman, Toyota, Miles,
or any of the Japaneses claimants...In fact they seldom make claims as strong as
BLP.

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 09:12:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28267;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:09:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:09:37 -0800
Message-Id: <4.3.1.20020225162224.00b33280 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:32:48 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: radiating nuclei
Cc: rory.macquisten virgin.net, "andrew.wyon@onetel.net":;,
        Geoffrey Spence <knights atlas.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <200202251519.HAA13204 mx1.eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"rKsAf3.0.Qv6.F_cUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46300
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 > I have a very serious question about this to ask: Why do nucleii not
 > radiate?

I don't know whether anyone has read Ron Pearson's ideas (Bath, UK) on 
nuclear theory, variously entitled "Intelligence behind the Universe", 
"Quantum Gravitation".  They are available from www.cfpf.org.uk.

They give remarkably accurate prediction for planetary precession, and are 
thus "workable".  They do not require time-dilation, and consider that 
kinetic energy of a body contributes to its mass by way of dE = dm * c^2.

Ron has been working on this for about 15 years I think.  He's not an 
"internet" chap, so everything's printed format only (at the moment).

Stephen Lawrence, UK.
"As punishment for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me and authority 
myself." - A. Einstein.  To his dying day, Einstein tried to convince 
people not to believe unquestionly in him: "I may well be on the wrong 
track", he said.

8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 
1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 09:18:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31266;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:14:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:14:54 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:15:01 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1be1c$1cc94a00$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"n0lw32.0.Re7.E4dUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46301
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

> > Not according to Fleischmann, Iwamura, or Miles & Imam. They say they can
> > produce palladium alloys that work 100% of the time in a P-F cell.
> > Unfortunately this material is not available for testing...
>
>This is untenable posturing.
>
>For the observers who don't  believe Fieshman, Toyota, Miles, etc. which 
>is 99+% of all scientists, then they are left in roughly the same position 
>as are the skeptics when some fly-by night inventor say  he invented 
>anit-gravity but sorry you can't test it because the craft just flew off 
>into outer space...

That is not a bit true! Fleischmann, and later Miles & Imam gave samples of 
their materials to other researchers, who tested the samples independently 
and confirmed the performance. You can't ask for better proof than that. 
The fact that 99+% of scientists are unaware of these experiments has no 
bearing on the truth of the matter.


>This kind of talk about 100% reproducibility should be ignored or at least 
>accompanied by a strong caveat.

The skeptics say it should be ignored, but I see no reason why. No caveat 
is needed. After they mastered the technique, every single sample they made 
produced significant excess heat. (Fleischmann did not make his; he 
received them from Johnson-Matthey.)


>If those people really have it, then they should allow independent 
>replication, that is "put up or shut up."

They did. You should pay closer attention to the literature.


>No more, or no less, accomodation should be accorded to Fieshman, Toyota, 
>Miles, or any of the Japaneses claimants...In fact they seldom make claims 
>as strong as BLP.

Their claims are far stronger because they have been independently 
replicated. There is no substitute for replication in science.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 10:08:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23603;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:03:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:03:51 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225130212.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:04:01 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Traffic control schemes proposed
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"ViB132.0.Ym5.6odUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46302
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is getting a little off-topic . . .

The other day I mentioned some futuristic schemes that have been discussed 
over the years to relieve traffic congestion, with automatic toll roads. 
Tolls would change with the time of day, or possibly with traffic 
conditions. Two news items about this were reported on the radio this 
morning. U.S. insurance companies are thinking of charging by mileage; 
people who drive less than 10,000 miles per year would get reduced rates. 
In England, researchers have proposed sophisticated, variable tolls by 
installing GPS meters in individual vehicles. This sounds cheaper and more 
practical than the scheme I described with automatic toll machines by the 
side of the road and transponders in the vehicles. Now that the Pentagon 
transmits GPS coordinates in the clear, a vehicle mounted GPS unit could 
reliably determine which road or highway the vehicle is traveling on. A 
ministry researchers said they do not plan to raise overall vehicle taxes, 
but rather reallocate them, charging people who use crowded roads more than 
people who stay away from urban traffic centers. I think they mentioned a 
toll of $0.60 per mile, about what I proposed.

If this scheme is properly implemented, there is no need to fear government 
surveillance of drivers. The onboard GPS and computer would only recorded 
toll units, not the actual location or time of time the units were tallied. 
At the end of the year the computer might report that you drove a total of 
20,150 miles, 5400 in high traffic roads during peak rush hours, which 
would be charged at one rate, and 14,750 at a discount rate. There would be 
no need to record the actual locations or dates you drove. It would be 
simpler not to; this information would take up much more space than a few 
cumulative toll registers. To prevent cheating, the GPS total mileage 
register would be compared to the mechanical odometer. GPS and odometer 
readings seldom agree precisely. During annual vehicle inspections, the 
mechanic would compare the two registers. If they agreed to within 5 
percent the GPS total would be recorded for tax purposes and reset to zero. 
A dashboard display could tell the driver how much he is paying per mile 
based on his choice of road and the time of day. It might display the time 
of day rate schedule for the road he has selected. In Atlanta it might say, 
"ROUTE I-85. RUSH HOUR RATES 7:00 - 9:00 A.M. NOW IN EFFECT. $2.00 PER 
MILE." A person driving at 8:45 might decide to pull off the road for a 
while, have a cuppa of Java, and wait until cheaper rates kick in. With the 
transponder scheme I described last week, people would be able to avoid the 
toll by leaving the highways and traveling on surface roads. The GPS would 
work just as well on surface roads. It might say: "SURFACE ROAD RUSH HOUR 
6:00 - 10:00 $1.00 PER MILE."

Many problems in society the people think are intractable could actually be 
solved with a little technology and an open-minded willingness to do things 
differently.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 10:13:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28342;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:12:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:12:41 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:05:01 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: radiating nuclei
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <005601c1be26$f32e0a40$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <4.3.1.20020225162224.00b33280 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"e79Xm1.0.mw6.OwdUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46303
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Stephen Lawrence" <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>

> > I have a very serious question about this to ask: Why do nucleii not
>  > radiate?

> I don't know whether anyone has read Ron Pearson's ideas (Bath, UK) on
> nuclear theory, variously entitled "Intelligence behind the Universe",
> "Quantum Gravitation".  They are available from www.cfpf.org.uk.

This is an interesting site, especially in relevance to recent threads here,
and the relevant article:

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/rdp/rdp_summary.html

also ties gravity into negative mass/energy which Pearson says goes back to
Dirac.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 10:21:48 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00529;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:20:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:20:45 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:13:10 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <006201c1be28$155efb00$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"fFk5C2.0.68.z1eUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46304
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> >If those people really have it, then they should allow independent
> >replication, that is "put up or shut up."

> They did. You should pay closer attention to the literature.

OK, Jed

Give me ONE valid reference form the literature that demonstrates that a
significant number of samples from different batches of material were received
by an independent laboratory and then tested and they ALL showed excess energy!

If you cannot, then I suggest it is you who should pay closer attention to the
literature.

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 10:43:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09889;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:38:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:38:57 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:39:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <006201c1be28$155efb00$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"R8XUU3.0.RQ2.1JeUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46305
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>OK, Jed
>
>Give me ONE valid reference form the literature that demonstrates that a
>significant number of samples from different batches of material were 
>received by an independent laboratory and then tested and they ALL showed 
>excess energy!

M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous 
Effects in Deuterated Systems, NAWCWPNS TP 8302, p. 42, Table 10. Summary 
of Palladium Materials Tested for Excess Power. Note the comparison of 
cathodes from NRL, J-M, Tanaka and other sources. Or, see McKubre, Oriani 
and others who tested samples of J-M material provided by Fleischmann.


>If you cannot, then I suggest it is you who should pay closer attention to 
>the literature.

OF COURSE I CAN!!! You should know by now that I never say anything not 
backup up by the literature. I may be wrong, but I am never without 
authoritative sources. Given the widespread hostility toward cold fusion, 
only a fool would argue in favor of it without having the facts at his 
fingertips. You would be shot down twice a day.

Getting back to Ed's argument, just because the electrochemical palladium 
technique can be made to work 100% of the time, that does not mean it is 
promising. We don't know what is promising yet. There is no doubt the 
electrochemical technique is inherently difficult, and it may well be a 
dead-end. As McKubre says, an electrochemist will always search for 
something easier than electrochemistry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 10:57:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17611;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:53:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:53:01 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:45:13 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: need adcice on nano powder for experiments
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00bb01c1be2c$8f778de0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <6c.1805b682.29aaffc6 aol.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"o9xmD3.0.3J4.CWeUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46306
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>


> I know of two powders in the 50nm range.
>
> Zinc Oxide used in suntan lotion.
>
> Titianum Oxide used as a white paint pigment.
>
> Can anyone tell me more about this stuff?  Are there other commonly used
> compounds in the 50nm meter range of size?


Try carbon nanotubes - not commonly used by available at high cost.

Some time ago this prospect was discussed on vortex in regards to the Case
carbon deuterium cell and the Mills hydrino:

Robin van Spaandonk noticed that "This [50 nm] distance as a photon wavelength
corresponds to a photon energy of 27.2 eV (which everyone should recognize).

I added: Here's another interesting tidbit to throw into the mix when you are
considering the 50 nm size and what it is about it that which might possibly
relate to LENR anomalous energy, as in situations where carbon soot has been
formed from incomplete combustion.

I am referring to  the work of Yudasaka at the NEC lab in Japan. She reported on
enormous pressures when C60 molecules (buckeyballs) are
encased inside carbon nanotubes (an arrangement called "peapods") . The
pressure can be .1 giga-Pascal.  In other words the buckyball/ nanotube
combo can act like a tiny piston inside a cylinder that could also contain
gas molecules such as deuterium.

Both the nanotubes which are often 50 nm in length and 2-4 nm in dia. and the
buckyballs which are only 2 nm or less in dia., can be manufactured in "starved"
combustion, especially starved combustion of ringed hydrocarbons, like the
phenols in plastics and coconut shells which Case uses.

Hydrogen or deuterium that happened to be encased in this spatial
arrangement, i.e. the "Yudasada peapod," could only some of that enormous
pressure but the 50 nm tube itself would, in addition to the pressure aspect,
likely the be the perfect absorber/ emitter for EUV photons of the correct size
(if you believe R. Mills).

That 27.2 EUV photon keeps reappearing in CANR like the smile of the Cheshire
Cat  (to paraphrase F.S.)

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 11:17:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29508;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:14:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:14:48 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:07:05 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"NPByY3.0.zC7.eqeUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46307
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> >Give me ONE valid reference form the literature that demonstrates that a
> >significant number of samples from different batches of material were
> >received by an independent laboratory and then tested and they ALL showed
> >excess energy!

> >If you cannot, then I suggest it is you who should pay closer attention to
> >the literature.

> OF COURSE I CAN!!! You should know by now that I never say anything not
> backup up by the literature. I may be wrong, but I am never without
> authoritative sources.

> M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous
> Effects in Deuterated Systems, NAWCWPNS TP 8302, p. 42, Table 10. Summary
> of Palladium Materials Tested for Excess Power. Note the comparison of
> cathodes from NRL, J-M, Tanaka and other sources. Or, see McKubre, Oriani
> and others who tested samples of J-M material provided by Fleischmann.


WHOOOOOA. Just a minute here.

This Miles report is the original claim !! NOT an independent verification !!
Not even close. And McKubre never said anything about 100% reproducibility, not
at least in the papers of his that I have. So do you have a relevant quote from
a McKubre paper where he got 100% from a large number of samples? If so, please
give me the reference.

AGAIN show me where an INDEPENDENT laboratory confirmed a claim of 100%
reproducibility of results from a variety of Pd material submitted by an
original claimant - not just substantial reproducibility or occasional
reproducibility or even 99% reproducibility .

Your claim was 100% so let's see the exact reference that I can check. And I
will check...unless, of course, like R Mills it's from some "confidential"
document and you signed an NDA...

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 11:43:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09543;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:41:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:41:00 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:33:25 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00d101c1be33$4b3a3540$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"_r6wj.0.yK2.CDfUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46308
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A quick web search for "McKubre palladium 100 percent" turns up:

...information about the CETI cell, judging by the footnotes in the Miley paper
and the titles of the missing papers: "Electrical Control of New Hydrogen
Energy," "Design Considerations for Multilayer Thin-Film Patterson-Type
Microspheres," "Producing Excess Enthalpy . . . with Near 100% Reliability"


Yet, we know what happened to CETI and isn't this exactly the cell that Merriman
replicated and got zero excess energy?

Don't get me wrong, I hope Rothwell has a good reference for confirmed 100%
reproduciblity, but I suspect that he does not.

If he does, there is no good reason why SRI or Earthtech wouldn't give it
another try.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 11:44:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10941;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:43:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:43:55 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020225141946.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:44:01 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"ajpQy1.0.sg2.xFfUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46309
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

> > M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous
> > Effects in Deuterated Systems, NAWCWPNS TP 8302, p. 42, Table 10. Summary
> > of Palladium Materials Tested for Excess Power. Note the comparison of
> > cathodes from NRL, J-M, Tanaka and other sources. Or, see McKubre, Oriani
> > and others who tested samples of J-M material provided by Fleischmann.
>
>
>WHOOOOOA. Just a minute here.
>
>This Miles report is the original claim !! NOT an independent verification !!

No, it isn't. Please read what I said: "Note the comparison of cathodes 
from NRL, J-M, Tanaka and other sources." The J-M cathodes came from 
Fleischmann, as well as directly from J-M. They all worked.

I suggest you read the report before commenting on it.

Miles also tested the NRL Pd-B cathodes, produced by Imam. Seven out of 
eight worked, and the reason the other when fails is now understood. (The 
NRL is not the same as China Lake, but they are both in the Navy.) Compare 
this to NRL Pd, Pd-Ag, WESGO, and material from other assorted sources: 0 
out of 19 worked. For Tanaka Pd, the score is one out of three. Clearly, 
the source of the palladium and the alloys make a critical difference.


>Not even close. And McKubre never said anything about 100% 
>reproducibility, not at least in the papers of his that I have.

He said the samples provided to him by Fleischmann all worked. Fleischmann 
said . . ., uh, informally in conversation, "Uncle Martin's cathodes always 
work." All the researchers he has collaborated with that I have spoken with 
agree. If you have communicated with some who received material from him 
that did not work, please list them. NEDO claimed some of these materials 
did not work, but that is because they calibrated after excess heat 
production began, the same mistake researchers at Caltech made in 1989. The 
results taken than face value show heat being swallowed up by the 
calorimeter, which is physically impossible.


>So do you have a relevant quote from a McKubre paper where he got 100% 
>from a large number of samples? If so, please give me the reference.

As I recall, those are the J-M cathodes shown in "Development of Advanced 
Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," EPRI TR-104195, Table 
3-1, p. 3-3. Note that all of the J-M cathodes produced excess heat, and 
none of the Engelhardt did. A very clearly pronounced difference.


>AGAIN show me where an INDEPENDENT laboratory confirmed a claim of 100% 
>reproducibility of results from a variety of Pd material submitted by an 
>original claimant . . .

I did. You need to pay a little closer attention to what I write, and you 
need to read original sources yourself instead of asking me to do your 
homework for you. Also, when in doubt, ask the authors. But read the papers 
before you bother them!


>Your claim was 100% so let's see the exact reference that I can check.

I did. We published the NAWCWPNS TP 8302 in the magazine, issue 15, and the 
Navy might supply a copy if you ask nicely.


>And I will check...unless, of course, like R Mills it's from some 
>"confidential" document and you signed an NDA...

I never sign NDAs. If I can't talk about it, I don't want to hear it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 12:26:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00395;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:01 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530502b8a03e6dea60 [12.21.209.179]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:29:20 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen generation
Resent-Message-ID: <"3vLYm2.0.v5.OtfUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46312
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:22 PM 2/25/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:07:04
>-0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>Yes.  I suspect the best is merely a PD foil.  Scott Little
>><little earthtech.org> of Earthtech used a Pd foil to filter his hydrogen
>>supplies see <www.earthech.org>.  I am not sure about the energy
>>requirements for your intended separating of stoichiometric quantities of
>>oxygen from the hydrogen.  I do know the Pd foils are very transparent to
>>hydrogen though.
>[snip]
>Isn't a Pd foil likely to catalyze combustion in this case?


This is a very good point, and one I overlooked. Using Pd foil in
stoichiometric mixtures would not be energy effective, and with prolonged
use might even cause an explosion.  (Don't think for a second that a
stoichiometric mixture of H2 an O2 does not expand or explode. Consider the
Saturn rocket engine.)

It might be effective to use Pd foil for a cathode with a gas permeable
backing so as to extract hydrogen gas from the back side of the foil. IF a
similar arrangement could be found for oxygen extraction at the anode, then
the electrodes could be made nearly arbitrarily close, thus eliminiating
cell resistance.  This would be a significant improvement in electrolysis
cell design, and would eliminate the need to operate at high pressures.
One way to build such cathodes might be to Pd plate low diameter sulfated
polystyrene tubes.  The hydrogen could then be carried off from the cell in
the tubing itself.

I have posted numerous other ideas here for improving electrolysis
efficiency, including the use of (mutually) rotating or moving plates,
rotating plates with "wiper" blades, flowing electrolyte with bubble
"scrubber" material, high voltage AC electrolysis using granules in the
electrolyte that act as two sided plates and which flow between field
generating high voltage AC electrodes fast enough that the granules carry
off the bubbles prior to current reversal and recombination, the use of
insulated plates and a resonant AC circuit to generate the AC electrostatic
field, etc.  Also posted the idea of doing electrolysis in high pressure
boiling water, so that 100 percent of waste heat goes directly into steam
production, so some of the lost  energy can then be recycled via a high
efficiency generator.  I also suggested various designs to convert
mechanical energy into electrolysis.   I don't really know exactly how
effective these ideas might be in practice, but there certainly are many
things that might be tried to improve electrolysis in general and even more
as applied to Brown's gas generators.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 12:26:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00445;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:03 -0800
Message-ID: <008701c1be32$0cf4da20$9f8f85ce computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: NanoParticle Sources
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:24:20 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1BDFF.BBD6A100"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"4pX5Q2.0.l6.RtfUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46313
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1BDFF.BBD6A100
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.nanoproducts.com/products/products.html

 http://www.foresight.org/conference/MNT6/Abstracts/Pratsinis/

This is an abstract for a presentation given at the
Sixth Foresight Conference on Molecular Nanotechnology.
There will be a link from here to the full article when it is available on the web.
The latest advances of flame aerosol technology for inexpensive synthesis of
nanoparticles with precisely controlled characteristics are presented. More
specifically, it has been shown how to use the mode of reactant gas mixing in
diffusion flame reactors to widely control the primary particle size and crystallinity
of product powders (1) and even make unagglomerated or non-aggregated particles (2).
Furthermore, electric fields can be used to narrowly control the characteristics of
product powders by spraying ions or by attracting the flame generated ions for
synthesis of TiO2, SiO2, SnO2 (3) and even composite fumed silica-carbon black
particles (4).

Here the focus is on scale-up of this process and measurement of particle size and
structure using small angle x-ray spectroscopy as well as the competition between gas
phase chemistry and surface chemistry of TiCl4 oxidation for synthesis of titania
nanoparticles. Synthesis of silica particles from hexamethyldisiloxane is presented
assuring chlorine free silica nanoparticles. Diffusion flame aerosol reactors are
presented that eliminate nanoparticle deposition and production of undesirable coarse
particles. The effect of various process variables on the characteristics of the
particles are presented with emphasis on the use of electric fields. For the first
time, it is shown that electric fields can be used in large scale production of
nanoparticles. Synthesis of composite silica-carbon nanoparticles resulting from the
use of electric fields is discussed also.

  Vol. 81, No. 11, November 1998


Effect of Temperature and Alcohols in the Preparation of Titania Nanoparticles from
Alkoxides
Danijela Vorkapic and Themis Matsoukas
http://www.ceramicjournal.org/issues/v81n11/abs/2815.html
Department of Chemical Engineering, Pennsylvania State University, University Park,
Pennsylvania 16802




We report on the formation of titania (TiO2) colloids via the hydrolysis and
condensation of alkoxides under a large excess of water. This process is characterized
by a rapid precipitation of large aggregates, followed by a slow peptization
(deaggregation) induced by the presence of nitric acid. We find that the hydrolysis
temperature and the length of the alkoxy group have a minor effect on the size of the
peptized colloid. In contrast, the particle size is sensitive to the peptization
temperature and exhibits a minimum at 50|SDC. The presence of alcohols inhibits
peptization and results in both larger colloids and longer peptization treatments. The
smallest size (~20 nm in diameter) is obtained when no alcohol is added to the
reaction mixture. The results suggest that the formation of TiO2 nanoparticles is
controlled by colloidal interactions, whereas chemical factors (the rate of hydrolysis
and condensation) have a secondary role.



------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1BDFF.BBD6A100
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Pratsinis NanoParticles in Flame Aerosol Reactors.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Pratsinis NanoParticles in Flame Aerosol Reactors.url"

[DEFAULT]
BASEURL=http://www.foresight.org/conference/MNT6/Abstracts/Pratsinis/

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.foresight.org/conference/MNT6/Abstracts/Pratsinis/
Modified=00DB3E8A2FBEC10152

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1BDFF.BBD6A100--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 12:26:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00361;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:00 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530504b8a04b31ea0b [12.21.209.179]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:29:29 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
Resent-Message-ID: <"Xq7Tr2.0.V5.NtfUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46311
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:21 AM 2/25/2, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>
>As for palladium, this metal can be made active, but so can other materials.
>Why do the people proposing explanations always focus only on this material?
>I would think an explanation able to be applied to any material and able to
>predict active materials would be more useful than one only applicable to Pd.
>
>Ed


Seems so true.  I also seems almost rediculous to expect that a pure
element provides the best matrix.  This is like expecting all catalysts to
be elemental in nature.  How nonsensical!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 12:27:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31845;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:23:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:23:57 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:16:14 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00e801c1be39$46da27c0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225141946.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"pv-Ps3.0.Qn7.SrfUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46310
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> >This Miles report is the original claim !! NOT an independent verification !!

> No, it isn't...

I take this as an admission, then, that you are in error on your original
assertion. You should have left it at that.

> I suggest you read the report before commenting on it.

Why? It's old material and it hasn't been replicated or confirmed and it may
even have been retracted by the Navy and Miles is no longer is involved. Total
waste of time!

> Miles also tested the NRL Pd-B cathodes, produced by Imam. Seven out of
> eight worked,

Not close to 100%

> For Tanaka Pd, the score is one out of three. Clearly,
> the source of the palladium and the alloys make a critical difference.

That was Ed Stroms original point that you took issue with. Now you seem to be
supporting what he said

> >So do you have a relevant quote from a McKubre paper where he got 100%
> >from a large number of samples? If so, please give me the reference.

> As I recall, those are the J-M cathodes shown in "Development of Advanced
> Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," EPRI TR-104195, Table
> 3-1, p. 3-3. Note that all of the J-M cathodes produced excess heat, and
> none of the Engelhardt did. A very clearly pronounced difference.

Again, we are looking for a confirmation that 100% are working

> >show me where an INDEPENDENT laboratory confirmed a claim of 100%
> >reproducibility of results from a variety of Pd material submitted by an
> >original claimant . . .

> I did. You need to pay a little closer attention to what I write

What? You already admitted that there is no - zero - nada - confirmation of
MIles old and possibly retracted study, which of course, I knew all along. You
should pay closer attention to your own admissions and logical non-sequiters.

> you need to read original sources yourself instead of asking me to do your
> homework for you.

I should ignore nonsense like this, but in this case, I'll say it once more for
the record, you have not shown any independent evidence for confirmed 100 %
reproducibility, nor is there any AFAIK.

> I did. We published the NAWCWPNS TP 8302 in the magazine, issue 15, and the
> Navy might supply a copy if you ask nicely.

Sorry!! but you already admitted in your initial remarks that this is a claim
which has never been replicated. Not only that, it is old, dated, dubious at
best, the Navy doesn't stand by it, and Miles doesn't do this work any more.

Since we seem to be in the mode of dispensing unwanted advice to each other,
IMHO you would learn mightily from the old cowboy warning about trying to ride a
dead horse...

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 12:41:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08412;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:40:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:40:13 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7A944F.49FF443 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:45:56 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
	 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vCiiN.0.G32.j4gUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46314
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Jed, I was complaining about the P-F method, not about the general use of
> >palladium.  When Pd is used in a P-F cell, the production of excess energy
> >is not reproducible in the normal use of the word.  Yes, certain batches
> >can produce a high number of active samples, but these batches are rare.
>
> Not according to Fleischmann, Iwamura, or Miles & Imam. They say they can
> produce palladium alloys that work 100% of the time in a P-F cell.
> Unfortunately this material is not available for testing
> because  Fleischmann is retired, Iwamura is not authorized to share
> material (and he usually uses gas loading now), and many years ago the Navy
> ordered Miles & Imam not to make any more material or to discuss the
> research with anyone. The gag rule has been rescinded, but they are still
> not allowed to make palladium-boron cathodes. Politics prevent widespread
> 100% reproducibility in cold fusion. The technical problems were solved six
> years ago.

I think your evaluation is a little optimistic.  First of all, although
Fleischmann claims that Type A palladium is always active, samples of this
material are not now available. However, when some was sent to Mike in the
past, it was not active.  I have tried to get Martin to tell me whether a Pd
wire I got from England years ago is Type A, but with no success.  Apparently,
he is not interested in having the method reproduced.

The active boride samples made at NRL and studied by Miles could not be
reproduced when attempted by NRL, LANL and IMRA.  Clearly, Pd can be made
active, but the techniques are either lost or are now unavailable.  I do not
call this situation an example of reproducibility now.

The only thing about active Pd we know for sure is that it does not crack when
loaded with D2.  How to achieve this condition is a matter of speculation and
luck.  If Fleischmann or someone knows how to prevent cracking, they have not
communicated this information to anyone who has attempted to make active Pd.
Simply saying that the Pd is Type A or that it contains some boron is not
enough information to be useful.  Even speculating that Pd must be free of O2,
as Martin has done, is also not enough.  Until someone publishes a recipe for
making crack-free Pd, the use of commercial Pd in the P-F method is a waste of
time.  The only material that works well is Pd electroplated on Pt.

>
>
> >Also, once an active sample is obtained, it will make heat every time it
> >is studied.
>
> That is what F., I. and M&I say, too.
>
> >However, neither of these experiences can be considered to be examples of
> >reproducibility in that someone can set up a cell, buy some
> >palladium, and make excess energy most of the time.
>
> Anyone would be able to do this were it not for politics, oppression and
> censorship. The limitations are not technical. If Miles were given the
> normal academic freedom a Fellow is supposed to be granted, we would have
> 100% reproducibility.
>
> Just because the problem is politics, that does not make it easy to solve.
> Politics and oppression can be as intractable as any technical problem.

While I agree, politics and oppression have operated and prevented research
that would answer the critical questions, I do not agree these are the only
problems.  A very definite lack of technical information exists and the major
players have not been helpful in spreading what little information is known.
Of course, part of the problem is a lack of patent protection so people are
forced to keep any success secret.  As a result, people in the field have been
as damaging to an acceptance of the phenomenon as have been the skeptics.

>
>
> >The P-F method is the gold standard I'm talking about. Critics always
> >refer to this method when judging the reality of CANR and attempts at a
> >theory always use observations based on this method.
>
> Most critics have not read the literature and do not realize that
> Fleischmann and others have made this method 100% reproducible.

If they have made the method reproducible in their laboratories then they
should be able to tell other people exactly how they might achieve the same
result.  This has not been done, so the method is not generally reproducible
in the normal meaning of the term.  All we can say is that the P-F effect has
been duplicated many times.

>
>
> >Totally ignored are the more interesting and more reproducible methods.
>
> Which is more reproducible? Perhaps you mean more easily reproduced.
>
> >As for palladium, this metal can be made active, but so can other
> >materials. Why do the people proposing explanations always focus only on
> >this material?
>
> Because they are ignorant. They do not realize other metals can be made
> active. Also, to be fair, there is little solid, published evidence for
> these other metals. I have not seen any really convincing results for
> nickel, which is supposed to be the most widely used alternative. Dramatic
> claims for nickel were made years ago by Mills, Piantelli and others, but
> each reported method is different and not a single one has been replicated
> as far as I know.

I suggest two different levels of observation exist, one to prove that a
phenomenon is real, and another to understand how it works.  A great deal of
study has been done to prove that CANR is real and this requires good
reproducibly.  On the other hand, to accept that another material other than
Pd can be made active does not require such detailed proof.  Many observations
exist that have not been duplicated, yet are generally accepted as being
characteristic of the phenomenon.  I suggest a sufficient number of
duplications showing active Ni have been made to accept this metal as being
active, although not enough to prove that CANR is real based on this evidence
alone.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 13:06:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19104;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:04:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:04:04 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7A99DA.C1DF646F ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:09:36 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com> <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9@computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"q-ITW3.0.Kg4.3RgUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46315
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>
> > >Give me ONE valid reference form the literature that demonstrates that a
> > >significant number of samples from different batches of material were
> > >received by an independent laboratory and then tested and they ALL showed
> > >excess energy!
>
> > >If you cannot, then I suggest it is you who should pay closer attention to
> > >the literature.
>
> > OF COURSE I CAN!!! You should know by now that I never say anything not
> > backup up by the literature. I may be wrong, but I am never without
> > authoritative sources.
>
> > M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous
> > Effects in Deuterated Systems, NAWCWPNS TP 8302, p. 42, Table 10. Summary
> > of Palladium Materials Tested for Excess Power. Note the comparison of
> > cathodes from NRL, J-M, Tanaka and other sources. Or, see McKubre, Oriani
> > and others who tested samples of J-M material provided by Fleischmann.
>
> WHOOOOOA. Just a minute here.
>
> This Miles report is the original claim !! NOT an independent verification !!
> Not even close. And McKubre never said anything about 100% reproducibility, not
> at least in the papers of his that I have. So do you have a relevant quote from
> a McKubre paper where he got 100% from a large number of samples? If so, please
> give me the reference.
>
> AGAIN show me where an INDEPENDENT laboratory confirmed a claim of 100%
> reproducibility of results from a variety of Pd material submitted by an
> original claimant - not just substantial reproducibility or occasional
> reproducibility or even 99% reproducibility .
>
> Your claim was 100% so let's see the exact reference that I can check. And I
> will check...unless, of course, like R Mills it's from some "confidential"
> document and you signed an NDA..

Just to help Jed out, I can suggest two examples of reproducibility. I was sent
three samples of Pd from Japan while I was working at LANL, two of which were
found to be active.  Samples from one active batch were found to be active in
Japan and in Italy.  I was also sent 90 samples of Pd from Japan.  These were
treated in 8 different ways and one of the treatments produced more active samples
than did the others.  Unfortunately, I never learned if IMRA had success with the
same material.  Check out my review "COLD FUSION:An Objective Assessment" on my
web sit for more examples.

Ed

> .
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 14:54:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16617;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:51:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:51:54 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:44:17 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <014a01c1be4d$f532f040$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer> <3C7A99DA.C1DF646F@ix.netcom.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"xLRh5.0.Y34.A0iUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46316
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>

> Just to help Jed out, I can suggest two examples of reproducibility. I was
sent
> three samples of Pd from Japan while I was working at LANL, two of which were
> found to be active.  Samples from one active batch were found to be active in
> Japan and in Italy.  I was also sent 90 samples of Pd from Japan.  These were
> treated in 8 different ways and one of the treatments produced more active
samples
> than did the others.  Unfortunately, I never learned if IMRA had success with
the
> same material.  Check out my review "COLD FUSION:An Objective Assessment" on
> my web sit for more examples.


Ed, the issue is not whether CF is real. I believe it is real and may be even be
based on "chemically assisted nuclear reactions" as you have so aptly worded the
process.

The issue of this particular thread is whether it is 100% reproducible. And
moreover, has that fact of 100% reproducibility ever been demonstrated and
confirmed.

Apparently Rothwell believes that it is 100% reproducible, and in defense of
that extreme minority position, he has asked me to read:

> M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous
> Effects in Deuterated Systems"...

Which I finally located and lo and behold, what did I find elsewhere in the
document? The following quote from Miles:

"Excess power was measured in 28 out of 94 electrochemical experiments
conducted using palladium or palladium-alloy cathodes in heavy water.
Reproducibility continues to be the major problem in this controversial
research area. Based on our experiments, this lack of reproducibility stems
from unknown variables in the palladium metal."

Oops! I guess it is Rothwell who forgot to read his own reference! This is
unbelievably shoddy work!

Not that I think he will abandon ship and eat crow.  As the acknowledged expert
on CF lit. he has never admitted to any error in this regard, at least not that
I can remember so I don't expect him to do so at the behest of a slacker like
myself.

I only hope that for the benefit of any younger physics grad students who might
have otherwise considered CF experimentation, were it not for the illogical
extremes that some advocates are willing to take it to, that this kind of
pointless bickering can be mollified eventually by the truth. For a start that
is, by references that are actually read before they are cast out in support of
positions that they actually contradict.

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 16:28:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA32278;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:25:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:25:37 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7AC925.EED25A93 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:31:42 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer> <3C7A99DA.C1DF646F@ix.netcom.com> <014a01c1be4d$f532f040$8837fea9@computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wad7X2.0.st7._NjUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46317
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>
> > Just to help Jed out, I can suggest two examples of reproducibility. I was
> sent
> > three samples of Pd from Japan while I was working at LANL, two of which were
> > found to be active.  Samples from one active batch were found to be active in
> > Japan and in Italy.  I was also sent 90 samples of Pd from Japan.  These were
> > treated in 8 different ways and one of the treatments produced more active
> samples
> > than did the others.  Unfortunately, I never learned if IMRA had success with
> the
> > same material.  Check out my review "COLD FUSION:An Objective Assessment" on
> > my web sit for more examples.
>
> Ed, the issue is not whether CF is real. I believe it is real and may be even be
> based on "chemically assisted nuclear reactions" as you have so aptly worded the
> process.
>
> The issue of this particular thread is whether it is 100% reproducible. And
> moreover, has that fact of 100% reproducibility ever been demonstrated and
> confirmed.

I get the impression that confusion exists about the definition of "100%
reproducible".  Everyone admits, including Jed, that most Pd is as dead as a door
nail.  However, occasionally a batch is found that makes excess energy nearly 100%
of the time.  I agree with you that an average researcher using commercial Pd could
not get the P-F method to work very often unless he were very lucky.  My
frustration with this limitation caused me to try to make my own Pd by
electroplating, which had much better success, but not 100%.  On the other hand, I
think Jed is saying that the effect is 100% reproducible if proper Pd is used, thus
proving that the phenomenon is real.  Because you accept the reality but would like
to do an experiment yourself, the claims made by Jed are not much use.  I suggest
that any one wanting to see the phenomenon for him self should try the
electroplating method, which I would be happy to describe in detail.

Ed

>
>
> Apparently Rothwell believes that it is 100% reproducible, and in defense of
> that extreme minority position, he has asked me to read:
>
> > M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous
> > Effects in Deuterated Systems"...
>
> Which I finally located and lo and behold, what did I find elsewhere in the
> document? The following quote from Miles:
>
> "Excess power was measured in 28 out of 94 electrochemical experiments
> conducted using palladium or palladium-alloy cathodes in heavy water.
> Reproducibility continues to be the major problem in this controversial
> research area. Based on our experiments, this lack of reproducibility stems
> from unknown variables in the palladium metal."
>
> Oops! I guess it is Rothwell who forgot to read his own reference! This is
> unbelievably shoddy work!
>
> Not that I think he will abandon ship and eat crow.  As the acknowledged expert
> on CF lit. he has never admitted to any error in this regard, at least not that
> I can remember so I don't expect him to do so at the behest of a slacker like
> myself.
>
> I only hope that for the benefit of any younger physics grad students who might
> have otherwise considered CF experimentation, were it not for the illogical
> extremes that some advocates are willing to take it to, that this kind of
> pointless bickering can be mollified eventually by the truth. For a start that
> is, by references that are actually read before they are cast out in support of
> positions that they actually contradict.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:00:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15259;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:57:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:57:27 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020225195855.007ac100 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:58:55 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1be39$46da27c0$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225141946.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"jPBC93.0.Gk3.srjUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46318
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>
>> >This Miles report is the original claim !! NOT an independent
verification !!
>
>> No, it isn't...
>
>I take this as an admission, then, that you are in error on your original
>assertion. You should have left it at that.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Is this a troll? I meant NO, IT ISN'T
THE ORIGINAL CLAIM. I said Miles confirmed Fleischmann's J-M samples.

Please refrain from posting trolls in this forum. If you actually
misunderstood, I am sorry, but I cannot see how I could have explained it
more clearly.


>> I suggest you read the report before commenting on it.
>
>Why? It's old material and it hasn't been replicated or confirmed and it may
>even have been retracted by the Navy and Miles is no longer is involved.

Nonsense. It was replicated & confirmed in Japan and elsewhere. Miles has
emphatgically NOT retracted. The Navy ordered him to stop working once it
became clear the results were overwhelmingly positive. This was deliberate
suppression of cold fusion. They claimed the reason was that he was
"embarrassing" the Navy.


>> Miles also tested the NRL Pd-B cathodes, produced by Imam. Seven out of
>> eight worked,
>
>Not close to 100%

You chopped the message and distorted what I wrote. I said the fault the
remaining sample was later established.


>> As I recall, those are the J-M cathodes shown in "Development of Advanced
>> Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," EPRI TR-104195, Table
>> 3-1, p. 3-3. Note that all of the J-M cathodes produced excess heat, and
>> none of the Engelhardt did. A very clearly pronounced difference.
>
>Again, we are looking for a confirmation that 100% are working

Again, we have found it. Big as life and plain as day.


>What? You already admitted that there is no - zero - nada - confirmation of
>MIles old and possibly retracted study, which of course, I knew all along.

You do not know it! You think it was "possibly retracted." You made that
up! You invented it out of whole cloth, and now you believe your own fantasy.


>Sorry!! but you already admitted in your initial remarks that this is a claim
>which has never been replicated.

I admitted nothing of the kind. You either misunderstood, or you are
trolling. Either way, I strongly recommend you be quiet for a while and
read the paper before commenting on it. I will not discuss it again until I
see some evidency you know something about the content, as opposed to your
made up version.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:13:28 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22518;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:12:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:12:37 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:04:57 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <018a01c1be61$9c335700$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225141946.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20020225195855.007ac100 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"FQyDT2.0.bV5.44kUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46319
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>

> Are you being deliberately obtuse? Is this a troll? I meant NO, IT ISN'T
> THE ORIGINAL CLAIM. I said Miles confirmed Fleischmann's J-M samples.

Too bad you didn't read ahead in the posts, Mr. Rothwell, as it is you who have
been completely exposed as "troll extraordinaire."

Had you read ahead, it would have saved you from being further embarrassed, but
since you insist (you must be a masochist) I will reiterate from the later post:

Ed, the issue is not whether CF is real. I believe it is real and may be even be
based on "chemically assisted nuclear reactions" as you have so aptly worded the
process.

The issue of this particular thread is whether it is 100% reproducible. And
moreover, has that fact of 100% reproducibility ever been demonstrated and
confirmed.

Apparently Rothwell believes that it is 100% reproducible, and in defense of
that extreme minority position, he has asked me to read:

> M. H. Miles et al., Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, "Anomalous
> Effects in Deuterated Systems"...

Which I finally located and lo and behold, what did I find elsewhere in the
document? The following quote from Miles:

"Excess power was measured in 28 out of 94 electrochemical experiments
conducted using palladium or palladium-alloy cathodes in heavy water.
Reproducibility continues to be the major problem in this controversial
research area. Based on our experiments, this lack of reproducibility stems
from unknown variables in the palladium metal."

Oops! I guess it is Rothwell who forgot to read his own reference! This is
unbelievably shoddy work!

Not that I think he will abandon ship and eat crow.  As the acknowledged expert
on CF lit. he has never admitted to any error in this regard, at least not that
I can remember so I don't expect him to do so at the behest of a slacker like
myself.

I only hope that for the benefit of any younger physics grad students who might
have otherwise considered CF experimentation, were it not for the illogical
extremes that some advocates are willing to take it to, that this kind of
pointless bickering can be mollified eventually by the truth. For a start that
is, by references that are actually read before they are cast out in support of
positions that they actually contradict.

Regards,

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:13:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22973;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:13:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:13:24 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:05:44 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <018b01c1be61$b7b23820$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer> <3C7A99DA.C1DF646F@ix.netcom.com>
 <014a01c1be4d$f532f040$8837fea9 computer> <3C7AC925.EED25A93@ix.netcom.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"cMuYX3.0.lc5.p4kUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46320
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>

> I suggest that any one wanting to see the phenomenon for himself
> should try the electroplating method, which I would be happy to describe in
detail.

Yes, please give as much detail as possible. For anyone who forty years ago
electroplated dimes onto pennies with a car battery and has been unlucky with
investing ever since, maybe Pd will bring a change of luck. But just in case, is
there such a thing as electroless Pd? Can you use boron or strontium with Pd as
an alloy? Can you use reclaimed Pd as your donor?

What is the best thermal OU you have seen with plated Pd?

This is the kind of cool stuff that should be appearing on vortex.

Thanks in advance,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:34:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01040;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:32:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:32:17 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020225203347.007af100 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:33:47 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Let us be more realistic about the politics of CF
In-Reply-To: <3C7A944F.49FF443 ix.netcom.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"33oUx2.0.9G.XMkUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46321
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Edmund Storms wrote:

>I think your evaluation is a little optimistic.  First of all, although
>Fleischman claims that Type A palladium is always active, samples of this
>material are not now available. However, when some was sent to Mike in the
>past, it was not active. . . .

Are you sure? That is not what Mike told me. That is not how I read the
report I cited.


>I have tried to get Martin to tell me whether a Pd
>wire I got from England years ago is Type A, but with no success.

He probably does not know. J-M would know, but they will not tell you, for
political reasons.


>Apparently,
>he is not interested in having the method reproduced.

That is not at all the case. He has no power to have it reproduced. He and
I tried for some years to have them reproduce it, but we could never scrape
together the $30,000 they required. J-M would have done it as a favor to
Martin -- and no one else. I think that by now so many people have retired
the art has been lost. That particular type was developed for filters and
superceded by an improved version 15 or 20 years ago. It could be that the
new version also works, but again, we don't have the money to find out. J-M
does not to find out, for political reasons.


>The active boride samples made at NRL and studied by Miles could not be
>reproduced when attempted by NRL, LANL and IMRA.

Imam at the NRL told me he could reproduce it, but he was ordered not to.
When LANL and IMRA were working on it, he was ordered not to cooperate.


> Clearly, Pd can be made
>active, but the techniques are either lost or are now unavailable.

They are available, but the people who know how to make them are either
retired or they have been ordered not to do it by the Navy high command in
Washington, DC. No information has been lost. Information has been
deliberately suppressed. That is not a scientific problem; it is politics.
To put it bluntly, barbarians who would destroy science, end academic
freedom, and prevent progress are to blame, not the scientists themselves.
These people are willing to risk global warming and millions of deaths
rather than give up their power & money.


>I do not
>call this situation an example of reproducibility now.

That is a bit like saying that the German librarians did not keep the books
in good condition, they should not have let the Storm troopers pour
kerosene on them and burned them. The librarians knew that is not a
recommended preservation technique. We had reproducibility, and science was
progressing normally until modern-day Storm troopers showed up, lied to the
press, gagged distinguished scientists, and forced them to do menial stock
room work instead of research.


>The only thing about active Pd we know for sure is that it does not crack
when
>loaded with D2.

Imam says he knows a great deal more than that -- not to detract from your
vital contributions to the field.


>  If Fleischman or someone knows how to prevent cracking, they have not
>communicated this information to anyone who has attempted to make active Pd.

They were ordered not to.


>Simply saying that the Pd is Type A or that it contains some boron is not
>enough information to be useful.

Yes, everyone knows that.


>While I agree, politics and oppression have operated and prevented research
>that would answer the critical questions, I do not agree these are the only
>problems.  A very definite lack of technical information exists and the major
>players have not been helpful in spreading what little information is known.

Some of those major players will wind up in jail if they share information.
Martin would be sued for every penny, I think, by people who command the
best lawyers in the world. A realistic appraisal is called for. We are not
fighting Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm.


>> Most critics have not read the literature and do not realize that
>> Fleischman and others have made this method 100% reproducible.
>
>If they have made the method reproducible in their laboratories then they
>should be able to tell other people exactly how they might achieve the same
>result.

"Should be" by whose rules? By the traditions of academic science, of
course, but the people who oppose CF at OPEC and the DOE don't play by
those rules.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 18:09:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17049;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:07:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:07:26 -0800
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:18:18 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEOHDBAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <018b01c1be61$b7b23820$8837fea9 computer>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"KD71d1.0.9A4.StkUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46322
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Yes, I'm kind of curious about this too, Ed.

The suface and bulk morphology can vary considerably
depending on the conditions of plating. Can you
specify a reproducible regime for OU? This certainly
would be an advance for the field. Have others replicated
this result?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 8:06 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens


From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>

> I suggest that any one wanting to see the phenomenon for himself
> should try the electroplating method, which I would be happy to describe
in
detail.

Yes, please give as much detail as possible. For anyone who forty years ago
electroplated dimes onto pennies with a car battery and has been unlucky
with
investing ever since, maybe Pd will bring a change of luck. But just in
case, is
there such a thing as electroless Pd? Can you use boron or strontium with Pd
as
an alloy? Can you use reclaimed Pd as your donor?

What is the best thermal OU you have seen with plated Pd?

This is the kind of cool stuff that should be appearing on vortex.

Thanks in advance,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 20:16:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15729;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:14:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:14:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7AFEB9.6A03415F ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:19:29 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com> <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9@4ax.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <00c301c1be2f$9d7adde0$8837fea9 computer> <3C7A99DA.C1DF646F@ix.netcom.com>
	 <014a01c1be4d$f532f040$8837fea9 computer> <3C7AC925.EED25A93@ix.netcom.com> <018b01c1be61$b7b23820$8837fea9@computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dUsQr2.0.fr3.GkmUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46323
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>
> > I suggest that any one wanting to see the phenomenon for himself
> > should try the electroplating method, which I would be happy to describe in
> detail.
>
> Yes, please give as much detail as possible.

Please see previous post.

> For anyone who forty years ago
> electroplated dimes onto pennies with a car battery and has been unlucky with
> investing ever since, maybe Pd will bring a change of luck.

Turning pennies into dimes using Hg was even more fun.

> But just in case, is
> there such a thing as electroless Pd?

Not that I know of.

> Can you use boron or strontium with Pd as
> an alloy?

Coplating two different metals is tricky business, which I have not explored.
Nevertheless, the possibilities are endless.  This could keep a whole department of
graduate students busy for years.
However, fine boron powder can be incorporated into the Pd layer as a separate
phase.

> Can you use reclaimed Pd as your donor?

Yes

>
>
> What is the best thermal OU you have seen with plated Pd?

About 0.5 watts (using a ±0.05 watt calorimeter) for a sample 1 cm x 2 cm.  While
this is small, Bush claimed to see up to 6 watts using Pd on Ag.  Insufficient work
has been done to know whether Ag is better than Pt, or that I was just lucky in
using a good electroplating solution for Ag and a poor one for Pt.


>
>
> This is the kind of cool stuff that should be appearing on vortex.
>
> Thanks in advance,

You are most welcome.

Ed

>
>
> Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 25 20:29:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22943;
	Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:29:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:29:00 -0800
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Hybrid cars??? 18 months off, Sez Prez.
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:39:55 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEOLDBAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Resent-Message-ID: <"m4O8S2.0.Jc5.BymUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46324
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

"Hybrid cars, the likes of which we just saw over there, are already in
existence,"
Bush said. "They run on a mixture of gas and electric power. They are
several
times more fuel-efficient than most cars on the road today. I was told by
the
representatives of the manufacturing companies that more and more hybrid
cars
will be available in the marketplace next year." GWB

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/02/25/bush.cars/index.html

Maybe George should subscribe to Vortex, eh?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 26 00:18:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21295;
	Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:16:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:16:02 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100301b8a0f38c00d5 [209.23.136.19]>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:14:33 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: God centered Universe
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"VSPYp1.0.fC5.1HqUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46325
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This man was on Art Bell's program Sunday night. He believes that the 
order shown by the Universe is a manifestation of God. I agree. His 
website is.

http://www.michaelacorey.com
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 26 01:00:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA05426;
	Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:58:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:58:10 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gamma source initiation of CF
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:22:47 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <a7jj7u4ceqvv2qr72t6db1frss9sdhd2hh 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b89eecb691cb [12.21.211.123]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b89eecb691cb [12.21.211.123]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA05364
Resent-Message-ID: <"Wvw5u3.0.iK1.XuqUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46326
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:56:41
-0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 5:50 PM 2/24/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>>I have a very serious question about this to ask:  Why do nucleii not
>>>radiate?
>>
>>I suspect that the main reason is that it is unlikely. First consider
>>that your notion of nuclei as balls filled with energetic particles
>>racing around, is completely wrong.
>
>
>It is not strictly my notion.  Can you explain the following article?  

Quote: "The nuclear environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei
together and then carefully measuring the photons that fly out:"

In short first heat up the particles, then say "look how hot they are!".

>Are
>you saying the 6 billion K temperature of Dy represents merely potential
>energy?  

I haven't read the original paper, but it looks awfully sus to me.
(A temperature of 6E9 K equates to a *per nucleon* energy of over
700keV. If this motion were truly random, then one might expect
sufficient energy to occasionally accumulate in a single particle, to
allow that particle to leave the nucleus). Put differently, for Dy162
this would represent a total energy of 162 x 700 keV ~= 125 MeV, or more
than enough to fission the nucleus.

>If so, why the temperature concept at all?  

Because no one else had done it?

>There would simply be
>energized or "excited" states Dy* and a non-energized "ground" state Dy.
>Something would have to excite the Dy.  It would not have a "temperature"
>associated with its ground state.  An excited Dy* should be expected to
>ultimately have to decay into a Dy.  

AFAIK that's what happens. Or at least into a less energetic state
(which might in theory also involve some other form of decay, e.g.
alpha, beta, etc.)

>For that matter, if Dy did not have a
>temperature associated with its ground state, then Heisenberg uncertainty
>is completely denied.  

Wouldn't that be a shame.

>It is necessary that finite momentum be associated
>with the various masses in the nucleus.  It is also well known that nucleii
>are lumpy, 

Don't tell me...derived from more experiments involving collisions?
(I also get agitated when poked).


>as are nucleons themselves, which consist of quarks.  

Let's see...more energetic collisions?

>The quarks
>move around, governed by the color force.  

So they say.

>In fact, the "zero point"
>temperature of a nucleon should be much larger than the nucleus.  

Actually I wouldn't object to this. See
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/checker.ppt (I'm only hosting the
document). However the definition of temperature may need fine tuning in
this case.

>It is
>reasonable to expect that the changing shape of the nucleon boundaries, due
>to internal heat, should transfer momentum to adjacent nucleons,

I'm not convinced that the shape of nucleon boundaries does change.

> and thus
>to the surrounding nucleus in general.  It appears the momenta and energies
>involved are far too large for quantumization to have any observable
>effect; the discreetness of the energy states would not be observable.

If you take a look at the energies at which neutron absorbtion takes
place in a whole variety of nuclei, you will see sharp peaks in the
absorption cross section, even at very low energies in some cases. This
would appear to imply that very definite structure exists.

>None of this denies the wave nature of matter. It is reasonable that quarks
>and nucleons are fuzzy, their positions not fixed, also due to Heisenberg.

Reasonableness is a matter of opinion.

>They exhibit wave-like natures and have deBroglie wavelengths.  However, if
>they possess large kinetic energies, then the wavelenegths associatesd with
>their large momenta makes them very small, unlike the electron in the atom,
>which has no relative motion of its center of mass or center of charge with
>respect to the nucleus unless acted upon by an external force.  Of course,
>that external force can be zero point energy, even at absolute zero, but
>the electron is light and large, so the zero point energy for it is small.

The only real evidence so far for ZPE, is Casimir forces. And I have yet
to see an example of the Casimir force being *repulsive*, as it is
supposed to be in some cases. IOW the Casimir force may yet turn out to
be an attractive force (London - van der Waals force), that is simply a
higher order EM derivative force, obtaining from the charges in the
objects being attracted to one another (i.e. a multipole force).


>It literally CAN be viewed as crystalized about the nucleus.  

ummm...

>The nucleons
>themselves seem to me to be another matter.  No force is infinite.  All
>particle masses operated on by forces have degrees of freedom.  This
>permits kinetic and angular momentum in any two body (or larger) system,
>and thus the possibility of heat, whether the two bodies are viewed as
>wave-like or not.  

Actually I agree with this, but I'm thinking more in terms of a hot
solid than a gas or liquid.


>Heisenberg necessitates a minimum heat, and thus motion
>and therefore acceleration.  If there is acceleration of charged bodies,
>then why no radiation?

I think that ground states are cold, and the motion you describe would
indeed lead to radiation, which would cool the nucleus back down very
rapidly (femto seconds?), or perhaps it gets reflected back in again by
the atomic electrons, if not too energetic?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 26 08:12:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12750;
	Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:10:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:10:03 -0800
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:02:27 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: need adcice on nano powder for experiments
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <003b01c1bede$fd7672e0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"begM03.0.773.QDxUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46327
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

There appears to be a connection between ball lightning, nanoparticle aerosols,
high electrostatice voltage and anomalous energy.

An interesting experiment based on determining the possibility that a certain
physical dimension, i.e. 50 nm, might have relevance in some anomalous energy
sitautions related to ball lightning can be infered from previous posts together
with another press clipping this week, "the dirty secret of ball lightning"
found in an article:

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp

>From the article "The notion that aerosols may be a part of ball lightning goes
back to at least the 1970s, but it's currently winning unprecedented
attention...." Actually, had the writer searched the magazine's own  archives he
would have found it appears to go back much further. Here is something from
1931:

http://www.sciencenews.org/20011208/timeline.asp

"The artificial thunderbolt was a glowing red ball, 8 inches in diameter. It
appeared while the experimenters were passing an electrostatic "brush" discharge
through a smoke cloud."

"Electrically charged particles, of opposite sign to the other particles of the
smoke, formed the ball. It was kept suspended in the center of their
100-cubic-foot glass chamber, the experimenters believe, by the electrical
repulsion of the inside walls."

A further connection arises from a vortex thread several months back in which
ball lightning was reported to Bill B. in a Tesla coil experiment where
combustion and soot were side effects...

> The fireballs seem to form in the flame and some in the soot cloud ...

In connection to the Znidarsic megahertz-meter theory, if I understand it
correctly, the relevant RF stimulation frequency would need to be 20 Mhz, and
that is way high for a Tesla coil, but maybe in ball lightning something else is
going on related only to the partical size and the electrostatic voltage?

Jones




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 26 08:14:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14705;
	Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:13:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:13:50 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020226110032.00ac58b8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:13:58 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF experiment protocols and suggestions from D. Cravens
In-Reply-To: <018a01c1be61$9c335700$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020222135719.00a745c8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3C76A7F4.AEBBAADE ix.netcom.com>
 <lb2g7use07ns6nnoag93ork87iqfp47va9 4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225092600.00adeca8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225104920.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225120427.03c046a0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225132414.03c1cb80 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020225141946.03bfe2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20020225195855.007ac100 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"sf6my.0.ab3.zGxUy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46328
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>The issue of this particular thread is whether it is 100% reproducible. 
>And moreover, has that fact of 100% reproducibility ever been demonstrated 
>and confirmed.

I think the authors would also disagree, based on Table 10. Table 10 proves 
100% reproducibility is possible with the right materials and careful 
electrochemistry. What else could it signify?


>The following quote from Miles:
>
>"Excess power was measured in 28 out of 94 electrochemical experiments 
>conducted using palladium or palladium-alloy cathodes in heavy water. 
>Reproducibility continues to be the major problem in this controversial 
>research area. Based on our experiments, this lack of reproducibility 
>stems from unknown variables in the palladium metal."

The point the authors are making is that reproducibility is difficult, but 
it can be achieved, and the problem boils down to unknown variables in the 
palladium metal. That is why samples from some sources always work, some 
never work, and some are sporadic. Obviously, the people at J-M and 
Mitsubishi have solved the problem, but others have not. The performance 
statistics cannot be coincidental.

Please note that the numbers "28 out of 94" (30% success rate) taken out of 
context means nothing. You have to look at the breakdown by source, which 
varies from 0% to 100%. To declare there is no reproducibility based on 
this overall 30% would be like saying that modern medicine does not work on 
the Russian population, because male longevity is 59 years. Modern medicine 
works fine, but only a small fraction of the population gets it. The 
reproducible techniques for making cathodes works fine, but only J-M, the 
NRL and a few others use these techniques. WESGO, Tanaka and others do not, 
so experiments with their materials are not reproducible.


>Oops! I guess it is Rothwell who forgot to read his own reference! This is 
>unbelievably shoddy work!

I think it is superb. It shows a iron clad correlation between materials 
and outcome.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 26 11:24:21 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12212;
	Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:20:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:20:48 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <88.147b00d7.29ad39e7 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:20:07 EST
Subject: Thank you Mr. Jones
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_88.147b00d7.29ad39e7_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"O6AAR2.0.d-2.F0-Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46329
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--part1_88.147b00d7.29ad39e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 2/26/02 11:46:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


> In connection to the Znidarsic megahertz-meter theory, if I understand it
> correctly, the relevant RF stimulation frequency would need to be 20 Mhz, 
> and
> that is way high for a Tesla coil, but maybe in ball lightning something 
> else is
> going on related only to the partical size and the electrostatic voltage?
> 
> Jones
> 
> Yes, you have got it.  In review Case and Arata have found 50nm to be the 
> magic particle size in cold fusion.  Jed Rothwell mentions this in IE 29, 
> page 23 1999.  Mileys' thin films are about this thickness. In cold fusion 
> the stimulation is thermal at a frequency of about 10exp 14 hertz.  The 
> product of the dimension and the stimulation frequency is one megahertz 
> meter.  Mileys' thin films are about this thickness.


When I went to visit Lot Brantley at NASA Marshall's Advanced Concpets Group 
he asked,  "Do you see any reason for the 3 megahertz stiumation"  I asked 
the size of the superconductive disk, He told me 1/3 meter.  Again the 
product is one megahertz-meter.

David Noever at NASA spoke with me about his down shifting of the frequencies 
theroy.  I connected this with my work.  I believe that the downshifted 
Compton wavelength in a Bose condensate is one megahertz meter.  Stimulation 
at this freuency reinforces the condensate.  In Russia there has been some 
work on vibratinally reinforced condensates.  This is especially true for 
deeply bound elections attached to mobile ions in a solid.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html">Chapter 11</A> 

> 
> I want to do plasma and electrolysis experiments with nano powders.  I just 
> don't know enough about that stuff.  I guess this is where I must develop 
> the technology.  I am resource constrained in this effort.
> 

Frank Znidarsic

--part1_88.147b00d7.29ad39e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 2/26/02 11:46:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In connection to the Znidarsic megahertz-meter theory, if I understand it<BR>
correctly, the relevant RF stimulation frequency would need to be 20 Mhz, and<BR>
that is way high for a Tesla coil, but maybe in ball lightning something else is<BR>
going on related only to the partical size and the electrostatic voltage?<BR>
<BR>
Jones<BR>
<BR>
Yes, you have got it.&nbsp; In review Case and Arata have found 50nm to be the magic particle size in cold fusion.&nbsp; Jed Rothwell mentions this in IE 29, page 23 1999.&nbsp; Mileys' thin films are about this thickness. In cold fusion the stimulation i
s thermal at a frequency of about 10exp 14 hertz.&nbsp; The product of the dimension and the stimulation frequency is one megahertz meter.&nbsp; Mileys' thin films are about this thickness.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI
ZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">When I went to visit Lot Brantley at NASA Marshall's Advanced Concpets Group he asked,&nbsp; "Do you see any reason for the 3 megahertz stiumat
ion"&nbsp; I asked the size of the superconductive disk, He told me 1/3 meter.&nbsp; Again the product is one megahertz-meter.<BR>
<BR>
David Noever at NASA spoke with me about his down shifting of the frequencies theroy.&nbsp; I connected this with my work.&nbsp; I believe that the downshifted Compton wavelength in a Bose condensate is one megahertz meter.&nbsp; Stimulation at this freue
ncy reinforces the condensate.&nbsp; In Russia there has been some work on vibratinally reinforced condensates.&nbsp; This is especially true for deeply bound elections attached to mobile ions in a solid.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html">Chapter 11</A> <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
I want to do plasma and electrolysis experiments with nano powders.&nbsp; I just don't know enough about that stuff.&nbsp; I guess this is where I must develop the technology.&nbsp; I am resource constrained in this effort.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part1_88.147b00d7.29ad39e7_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 26 12:22:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09662;
	Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:14:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:14:35 -0800
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:22:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thank you Mr. Jones
In-Reply-To: <88.147b00d7.29ad39e7 aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020226151128.21610A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"VfMIY2.0.tM2.fo-Uy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46330
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Frank,

	Nano sized particles and the technology associated with it is well
developed in several fields.  In general you do NOT have to go to all
kinds of great troubles and lengths to be able to do work, you only need
to educate yourself about the general nature of what happens when you have
tiny bits of stuff.

	Two fields you can do searches on are powder metallurgy and
sol-gel technology.

	The latter is concerned with colloids.
	In general:

	A colloidal suspension is any suspension in a fluid where the
particle is so small that gravity does not act on it, or casue it to
settle out.
	A few drops of milk in water is an example
	Other Examples: 

	silica gel ....often used to dry packaged electronics, food and
medicines, is found in little bags.
	Many materials form nano particles if you simply cause them to be
precipitated from solution.
	A standard book on physical inorganic chemistry is a good start.

	Using such a text you can determine what causes the precipitation
to occur slowly or rapidly.... In general a slow precipitation will yield
smaller particles.

	Example:	dissolve your target metal in hydrochloric acid
and water 5:1.   Then cause the metal to come out of solution by slowly
adding an alkali, such as dilute sodium bicarbonate

	OR:	Many oxides from high temperature combustion ...read
smoke.... are extremely small particles. ....

	SO: if you CAREFULLY burn magnesium ribbon you can collect a white
dust which began as smoke...

	The list goes on an on....   But requires a little book work.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/26/02 11:46:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:
> 
> 
> > In connection to the Znidarsic megahertz-meter theory, if I understand it
> > correctly, the relevant RF stimulation frequency would need to be 20 Mhz, 
> > and
> > that is way high for a Tesla coil, but maybe in ball lightning something 
> > else is
> > going on related only to the partical size and the electrostatic voltage?
> > 
> > Jones
> > 
> > Yes, you have got it.  In review Case and Arata have found 50nm to be the 
> > magic particle size in cold fusion.  Jed Rothwell mentions this in IE 29, 
> > page 23 1999.  Mileys' thin films are about this thickness. In cold fusion 
> > the stimulation is thermal at a frequency of about 10exp 14 hertz.  The 
> > product of the dimension and the stimulation frequency is one megahertz 
> > meter.  Mileys' thin films are about this thickness.
> 
> 
> When I went to visit Lot Brantley at NASA Marshall's Advanced Concpets Group 
> he asked,  "Do you see any reason for the 3 megahertz stiumation"  I asked 
> the size of the superconductive disk, He told me 1/3 meter.  Again the 
> product is one megahertz-meter.
> 
> David Noever at NASA spoke with me about his down shifting of the frequencies 
> theroy.  I connected this with my work.  I believe that the downshifted 
> Compton wavelength in a Bose condensate is one megahertz meter.  Stimulation 
> at this freuency reinforces the condensate.  In Russia there has been some 
> work on vibratinally reinforced condensates.  This is especially true for 
> deeply bound elections attached to mobile ions in a solid.
> 
>  <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterc.html">Chapter 11</A> 
> 
> > 
> > I want to do plasma and electrolysis experiments with nano powders.  I just 
> > don't know enough about that stuff.  I guess this is where I must develop 
> > the technology.  I am resource constrained in this effort.
> > 
> 
> Frank Znidarsic
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 01:32:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA21936;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:29:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:29:27 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05100305b8a255943999 [209.23.136.19]>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:27:53 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: advocate of creation science
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ljObr3.0.eM5.tRAVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46331
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Do you need money to fund your research? This man is offering 
$250,000 to anyone who can prove the theory of evolution, see 
www.drdino.com .
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 07:51:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09007;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:48:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:48:19 -0800
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:40:38 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Is the Heliopause a repository for Cavorite?
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Cc: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <003601c1bfa5$1b669020$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <000601c1bf71$287d6240$8b8f85ce computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"MJvg2.0.bC2.2_FVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46332
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Attention! Anti-gravity aficionados.

Throw out your old physics textbook. Put a "dream-catcher" over your easy chair,
sit back  and enjoy.

And thanks to Fred Sparber for most of this inspired dreamwork.

The laws of physics seem to permit four basic kinds of original matter to
condense from the quark sea at the very beginning of time (for our particular
universe) not just two.

These four would be:

1) hydrogen,
2) anti-hydrogen,
3) H' or cavorite hydrogen, the mirror image of H and
4) AH' or cavorite anti-hydrogen.

Some minute stimulus (The Creator?) could have intervened at that earliest
instant to influence the relative proportion of each, and indeed it seems that
hydrogen is the by far the predominant species in our solar system, but as for
the rest of the universe outside our galaxy, all bets are off. The fact that the
expansion of the universe appears to be increasing at an ever increasing rate
could well be an indication that primordial mirror matter Hydrogen (H') was
created in massive quantities - but not necessarily equal quantities with H.

BTW should they interact, which can be expected to have been the norm early on,
since the gravitation force is so incredibly weak compared to the EM and strong
force: then in that reaction, unlike the situation where H and anti-hydrogen
annihilate, nothing other than a chemical reaction occurs and you get a few
extra evs and a molecule H-H' that is weightless on earth and also on any
putative planet composed of mirror image matter.

However, there is reason to suspect that, at that earliest instant of time, if
there was just a slight imbalance in the primordial soup, and H' started to
condense out first, then it might have formed a mantle and blown off first,
compressing the remaining quarks so that more H was then condensed - and from
that nanosecond forward, H becomes the dominant species for the remainder of
"time." Sounds ripe for a Hollywood blockbuster. If this scenario occurred, then
few heavier cavorite elements could have formed, and most stars would be
composed of regular H, D, and He as we suspect.

The two mirror images of primordial matter are identical or at least
indistinguishable from a distance, except for symmetry, and in most of their
properties except the one anti-symmetrical property that we call gravity.

Again, this is NOT "Antimatter" or even "Negative Energy."   IOW, E = mc^2 =
mirror matter, m'c^2. For instance, H' has a magnetic moment just like regular H
but the poles are flipped so it does not magnetically repel. Since the
gravitational repulsive "antigravity" force (Fg = G* m*m'/R^2) between stellar
masses seems to preclude the secondary formation of mirror matter stars - then
the H' may only be dispersed throughout the universe as primordial mirror matter
Hydrogen (H') - which is, of course, the 21 cm "hydrogen" radiation and that is
what we now "see" from that earliest instant.

That is to say, most of the primordial Cavorite will most likely be found in
lone atoms of H' way out there or, closer to home, in H'2 molecules, or as H'H
molecules (weightless hydrogen), perhaps a little D' which has is also
weightless and some "really light water" H-O-H' which is about 6% lighter than
regular water on earth. There is no reason these species couldn't exist just
outside of out immediate planetary system in what NASA calls the "Heliopause."

If there was ever much of the "really light water" H-O-H' on primordial earth,
then there are a number of redistribution forces that over eons of time would
have allowed it to diffuse out into space, because the instant it gets free from
the O-H ion it is accelerated away from us - that is the effect of gravity on
mirror image matter. However, there is the chance, just the smallest of chance
that if any ice cap ever existed on earth at earlier times and somehow stayed
intact over the eons, there could be a little bit of RLW (really light water)
left over, OR that periodic comet impacts from the Oort cloud could have kept
enough RLW coming back into earth that we might be able to find some if we look
hard enough.

Does anybody remember that 5th Force hoopla of some time ago - said to have been
debunked but is it really so? and, in particular, what is the relevance of the
5th Force to the polar ice cap? That is what I am researching now.

And if there are any "new millennium" prospectors out there, just keep in mind
that NASA would probably pay several $billion/ pound for H' . If there is any
substantial RLW to be found at the polar ice cap, then you could find it with
the most sensitive gravitometer, and then you could electrolyze out the H' and
store it in a hydrogen cylinder, well any cylinder that had a big anchor
attached!!

But even if we don't have it here, does the "Heliopause" contain some H'?

Read this Press Release with an open mind as to H' and think about it.

VOYAGER MISSION: HELIOPAUSE
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. (818) 354-5011

Contact: Mary A. Hardin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Press Release: Voyager-Heliopause
May 26, 1993

Nearly 15 years after they left home, the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft have
discovered the first direct evidence of the long- sought-after heliopause -- the
boundary that separates Earth's solar system from interstellar space.

"This discovery is an exciting indication that still more discoveries and
surprises lie ahead for the Voyagers as they continue their journey to the outer
reaches of our solar system," said Dr. Edward C. Stone, director of the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory and Voyager project scientist.

Since August 1992, the radio antennas on the spacecraft, called the plasma wave
subsystem, have been recording intense low- frequency radio emissions coming
from beyond the solar system. For months the source of these radio emissions
remained a mystery.

"Our interpretation now is that these radio signals are created as a cloud of
electrically charged gas, called a plasma, expands from the sun and interacts
with the cold interstellar gas beyond the heliopause," said Dr. Don Gurnett,
principal investigator of the Voyager plasma wave subsystem and a professor at
the University of Iowa.

The sun is the center of our solar system. The solar wind is a stream of
electrically charged particles that flows steadily away from the sun. As the
solar wind moves out into space, it creates a magnetized bubble of hot plasma
around the sun, called the heliosphere. Eventually, the expanding solar wind
encounters the charged particles and magnetic field in the interstellar gas. The
boundary created between the solar wind and interstellar gas is the heliopause.

"These radio emissions are probably the most powerful radio source in our solar
system," said Gurnett. "We've estimated the total power radiated by the signals
to be more than 10 trillion watts. However, these radio signals are at such low
frequencies, only 2 to 3 kilohertz, that they can't be detected from Earth."

In May and June 1992, the sun experienced a period of intense solar activity
which emitted a cloud of rapidly moving charged particles. When this cloud of
plasma arrived at the heliopause, the particles interacted violently with the
interstellar plasma and produced the radio emissions, according to Gurnett.

"We've seen the frequency of these radio emissions rise over time. Our
assumption that this is the heliopause is based on the fact that there is no
other known structure out there that could be causing these signals," Gurnett
continued.

Because of the Voyagers' unique positions in space, they serendipitously
detected and recorded the radio emissions. "Earth-bound scientists would not
know this phenomenon was occurring if it weren't for the Voyager spacecraft,"
Gurnett added.

Exactly where the heliopause is remains one of the great unanswered questions in
space physics.

"It's this Voyager radio data combined with the plasma measurements taken at the
spacecraft that give us a better guess about where the heliopause is. Based on
the solar wind speed, the time that has elapsed since the mid-1992 solar event
and the strength of the radio emissions, my best guess for the upper limit of
the heliopause currently is about 90 to 120 astronomical units (AU) from the
sun," said Dr. Ralph McNutt, a co-investigator on the Voyager plasma science
experiment and a researcher at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics
Laboratory in Laurel, Md. (One AU is equal to 150 million kilometers (93 million
miles) or the mean distance from Earth to the sun.)

Voyager 1 currently is at 52 AU (7.8 billion kilometers or 4.9 billion miles
from the sun), and Voyager 2 is at 40 AU (6 billion kilometers or 3.7 billion
miles) from the sun.

Voyager 1 was launched on Sept. 5, 1977 and completed flyby exploration of both
Jupiter and Saturn. The spacecraft now is rising above the ecliptic plane -- the
plane in which most of the planets orbit the sun -- at an angle of about 35
degrees at a rate of about 520 million kilometers (about 320 million miles) a
year.

Voyager 2 was launched on Aug. 20, 1977 and also completed visits to Jupiter and
Saturn and then went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, completing the
reconnaissance of the giant outer planets. The spacecraft is now diving below
the ecliptic plane at an angle of about 48 degrees and a rate of about 470
million kilometers (about 290 million miles) a year.

Gurnett presented his findings today at a meeting of the American Geophysical
Union in Baltimore.

The Voyager Interstellar Mission is managed by JPL for NASA's Office of Space
Science, Washington, D.C.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back to the Voyager Project Description Home Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Voyager Project // 12-20-93 // young vraptor.jpl.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 08:15:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23155;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:11:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:11:47 -0800
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:04:02 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <005001c1bfa8$6016c340$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"ovhvJ2.0.if5.2LGVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46333
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In a previous message from: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>

 ....Is there any Osmotic/ membrane Tech for this?  [hydrogen separation before
recombination in an electrolytic cell]

I had suggested earlier to Noel that the way of the future for proton separation
membranes is ceramic for high temperature - BUT that from the Cold Fusion point
of view,  there was an interesting application that could add built-in synergy,
since CF is already a kind of electrolysis cell. Perhaps there is even a double
synergy, if you are willing to get a little more complex than normal.

BTW this switch from Pd to ceramics for hydrogen separation is well on its way
even though the price of Pd has dropped down below $400/ oz recently (from $750
and up). The problem is abnormal demand/supply sensitivity, and Pd will soar
again when demand increases.

CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is about the best
that can be said for it in 2002. And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into
electricity has always loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the
technology ever become robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."
Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great options, due to
inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues - however, high
efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding on the closed-cycle fuel cell,
or CCFC.

In a CF/CCFC reactor the excess heat, pressure and a factor (x) are used to
maximize D2 production from heavy water, then it becomes necessary to separate
out the D2 with a high-temp proton conductor before it can recombine in the
CFcell with O2 ... then plumb both the collected D2 and the O2 from the CF cell
to an adjoining fuel cell, convert them to electricity and then recycle the
heavy water back to the CF cell in a closed circuit fashion ...The variable (x)
is an interesting issue, and I will get back to it in a moment.

As it turns out, in following up on the details of how this idea could be best
implemented, I ran across the paper "A Catalytic Role of Atomic Oxygen on
Anomalous Heat Generation Induced in Proton Conductive Ceramics under Hydrogen
Atmosphere" by Hiroshi Yamamoto.  He examines some decade old work of Mizuno,
et, al.,  "Anomalous Heat Evolution from SrCeO3 -Type Proton Conductors during
Absorption/Desorption in Alternate Electric Field", Proceedings of 4 th
International Conference on Cold Fusion, 1993.

SrCeO3 and its variants is a commonly used ceramic proton conductor and is
available commercially.  The main variants are SrCe1-xMxO3-d and BaCe1-xMxO3-d
(where M is a fixed-valent dopant such as Ca, Y, Yb, In, Nd, or Gd).

Yamamoto explains how the oxygen in the ceramic proton conductor operates as a
Mills catalyst and how this elegantly explains Mizuno's excess heat findings,
which are there but unfortunately are not robust enough to get excited about if
that were the whole story, BUT remember that the material he was working with is
also a *very good* hydrogen separator, so perhaps there would be an added
synergy if you were to combine a number of relatively proven technologies into
one compound cell. Side note: Yamamoto apparently didn't know about the added
importance of the Sr at that point in time.

If you think about the very best case scenario, where the hydrogen is produced
from electrolysis at over 90% electric efficiency and fuel cells operate at
about 45% efficiency, then overall, you are going to need to have a COP of near
3 on the CF cell that feeds the CCFC before things start to look interesting.

CF cells have been said to operate at COP levels higher than 3 for some periods
but that is electricity-to-heat, not electricity-to-electricity -- plus, CF is
presently far from being "on demand". A PhD named Ying claimed he developed
on-demand CF using external gamma irradiation. I believe that this is not only
possible, but that he actually did it, and that it is also easy to see why
nobody wanted to fund or pursue that idea at the time, as gamma irradiation adds
several layers of complexity, and nobody could envision a clear end-game
scenario that made sense at that point in time - but perhaps the time has now
come to recast this option into a new compound device.

Why? because of the double-synergy mentioned above. The double synergy comes
from using the external gamma radiation for two purposes. There is a old and
proven booster to electrolysis that has been well studied since the days of the
aqueous reactors (1948  and on) at Oak Ridge and elsewhere. It is called
radiolysis, but please don't grimace just yet at the prospect of a radioactivity
issue - it is already a part of CF, like it or not, and will be used by
opponents of CF no matter what, so why not "go with the flow?" A little extra
shielding never hurt anybody.

The following scheme will be a little complex, so please bear with me.

Here is an idea for a combined CF/CCFC that uses spent reactor fuel to enhance
radiolysis/electrolysis and has the added benefit, if you happen to be from the
Rocky mountain west, that you won't have to see your mountains turned into tombs
for somebody else's spent fuel.

The stuff, spent reactor fuel, so hideous to the Sierra club, has a terrible
reputation but in a more dispassionate appraisal has enormous potential value -
believe it or not, when properly handled. This idea of an enhanced *radiolysis/
electrolysis/cold fusion* methodology may be one way to realize that value. If
Ying is correct, and added radiation gives you "on-demand CF" then a double
benefit ensues, in that it also makes water splitting more efficient, actually
far more efficient by several orders of magnitude.

What I am envisioning is a cylindrical CF cell with a hollow cylindrical anode
that can be filled with factor (x) which can be spent reactor fuel or really any
radioactive species. The cathode will be the monolithic ceramic wall of the cell
itself and it will be of thick SrCeO3 electroplated on the inside with Pd.

This will be a pressure cell so that D2 is expelled by pressure gradient out of
the cathode/ceramic wall  and can be vacuum collected. The oxygen will stay in
the cell and will diffuse through a ceramic oxygen membrane near the anode. The
adjoining fuel cell can be of any variety. It shouldn't take much radioactive
waste to turn a marginally OU cell into a .... well, a real barn burner.

This will probably be a hard sell to the Sierra club.

Jones








From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 08:19:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24526;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:14:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:14:18 -0800
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:06:38 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Is the Heliopause a repository for Cavorite?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <005f01c1bfa8$bd1893c0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"sVOAK1.0.2_5.QNGVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46334
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Attention! Anti-gravity aficionados.

Throw out your old physics textbook. Put a "dream-catcher" over your easy chair,
sit back  and enjoy.

And thanks to Fred Sparber for most of this inspired dreamwork.

The laws of physics seem to permit four basic kinds of original matter to
condense from the quark sea at the very beginning of time (for our particular
universe) not just two.

These four would be:

1) hydrogen,
2) anti-hydrogen,
3) H' or cavorite hydrogen, the mirror image of H and
4) AH' or cavorite anti-hydrogen.

Some minute stimulus (The Creator?) could have intervened at that earliest
instant to influence the relative proportion of each, and indeed it seems that
hydrogen is the by far the predominant species in our solar system, but as for
the rest of the universe outside our galaxy, all bets are off. The fact that the
expansion of the universe appears to be increasing at an ever increasing rate
could well be an indication that primordial mirror matter Hydrogen (H') was
created in massive quantities - but not necessarily equal quantities with H.

BTW should they interact, which can be expected to have been the norm early on,
since the gravitation force is so incredibly weak compared to the EM and strong
force: then in that reaction, unlike the situation where H and anti-hydrogen
annihilate, nothing other than a chemical reaction occurs and you get a few
extra evs and a molecule H-H' that is weightless on earth and also on any
putative planet composed of mirror image matter.

However, there is reason to suspect that, at that earliest instant of time, if
there was just a slight imbalance in the primordial soup, and H' started to
condense out first, then it might have formed a mantle and blown off first,
compressing the remaining quarks so that more H was then condensed - and from
that nanosecond forward, H becomes the dominant species for the remainder of
"time." Sounds ripe for a Hollywood blockbuster. If this scenario occurred, then
few heavier cavorite elements could have formed, and most stars would be
composed of regular H, D, and He as we suspect.

The two mirror images of primordial matter are identical or at least
indistinguishable from a distance, except for symmetry, and in most of their
properties except the one anti-symmetrical property that we call gravity.

Again, this is NOT "Antimatter" or even "Negative Energy."   IOW, E = mc^2 =
mirror matter, m'c^2. For instance, H' has a magnetic moment just like regular H
but the poles are flipped so it does not magnetically repel. Since the
gravitational repulsive "antigravity" force (Fg = G* m*m'/R^2) between stellar
masses seems to preclude the secondary formation of mirror matter stars - then
the H' may only be dispersed throughout the universe as primordial mirror matter
Hydrogen (H') - which is, of course, the 21 cm "hydrogen" radiation and that is
what we now "see" from that earliest instant.

That is to say, most of the primordial Cavorite will most likely be found in
lone atoms of H' way out there or, closer to home, in H'2 molecules, or as H'H
molecules (weightless hydrogen), perhaps a little D' which has is also
weightless and some "really light water" H-O-H' which is about 6% lighter than
regular water on earth. There is no reason these species couldn't exist just
outside of out immediate planetary system in what NASA calls the "Heliopause."

If there was ever much of the "really light water" H-O-H' on primordial earth,
then there are a number of redistribution forces that over eons of time would
have allowed it to diffuse out into space, because the instant it gets free from
the O-H ion it is accelerated away from us - that is the effect of gravity on
mirror image matter. However, there is the chance, just the smallest of chance
that if any ice cap ever existed on earth at earlier times and somehow stayed
intact over the eons, there could be a little bit of RLW (really light water)
left over, OR that periodic comet impacts from the Oort cloud could have kept
enough RLW coming back into earth that we might be able to find some if we look
hard enough.

Does anybody remember that 5th Force hoopla of some time ago - said to have been
debunked but is it really so? and, in particular, what is the relevance of the
5th Force to the polar ice cap? That is what I am researching now.

And if there are any "new millennium" prospectors out there, just keep in mind
that NASA would probably pay several $billion/ pound for H' . If there is any
substantial RLW to be found at the polar ice cap, then you could find it with
the most sensitive gravitometer, and then you could electrolyze out the H' and
store it in a hydrogen cylinder, well any cylinder that had a big anchor
attached!!

But even if we don't have it here, does the "Heliopause" contain some H'?

Read this Press Release with an open mind as to H' and think about it.

VOYAGER MISSION: HELIOPAUSE
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. (818) 354-5011

Contact: Mary A. Hardin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Press Release: Voyager-Heliopause
May 26, 1993

Nearly 15 years after they left home, the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft have
discovered the first direct evidence of the long- sought-after heliopause -- the
boundary that separates Earth's solar system from interstellar space.

"This discovery is an exciting indication that still more discoveries and
surprises lie ahead for the Voyagers as they continue their journey to the outer
reaches of our solar system," said Dr. Edward C. Stone, director of the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory and Voyager project scientist.

Since August 1992, the radio antennas on the spacecraft, called the plasma wave
subsystem, have been recording intense low- frequency radio emissions coming
from beyond the solar system. For months the source of these radio emissions
remained a mystery.

"Our interpretation now is that these radio signals are created as a cloud of
electrically charged gas, called a plasma, expands from the sun and interacts
with the cold interstellar gas beyond the heliopause," said Dr. Don Gurnett,
principal investigator of the Voyager plasma wave subsystem and a professor at
the University of Iowa.

The sun is the center of our solar system. The solar wind is a stream of
electrically charged particles that flows steadily away from the sun. As the
solar wind moves out into space, it creates a magnetized bubble of hot plasma
around the sun, called the heliosphere. Eventually, the expanding solar wind
encounters the charged particles and magnetic field in the interstellar gas. The
boundary created between the solar wind and interstellar gas is the heliopause.

"These radio emissions are probably the most powerful radio source in our solar
system," said Gurnett. "We've estimated the total power radiated by the signals
to be more than 10 trillion watts. However, these radio signals are at such low
frequencies, only 2 to 3 kilohertz, that they can't be detected from Earth."

In May and June 1992, the sun experienced a period of intense solar activity
which emitted a cloud of rapidly moving charged particles. When this cloud of
plasma arrived at the heliopause, the particles interacted violently with the
interstellar plasma and produced the radio emissions, according to Gurnett.

"We've seen the frequency of these radio emissions rise over time. Our
assumption that this is the heliopause is based on the fact that there is no
other known structure out there that could be causing these signals," Gurnett
continued.

Because of the Voyagers' unique positions in space, they serendipitously
detected and recorded the radio emissions. "Earth-bound scientists would not
know this phenomenon was occurring if it weren't for the Voyager spacecraft,"
Gurnett added.

Exactly where the heliopause is remains one of the great unanswered questions in
space physics.

"It's this Voyager radio data combined with the plasma measurements taken at the
spacecraft that give us a better guess about where the heliopause is. Based on
the solar wind speed, the time that has elapsed since the mid-1992 solar event
and the strength of the radio emissions, my best guess for the upper limit of
the heliopause currently is about 90 to 120 astronomical units (AU) from the
sun," said Dr. Ralph McNutt, a co-investigator on the Voyager plasma science
experiment and a researcher at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics
Laboratory in Laurel, Md. (One AU is equal to 150 million kilometers (93 million
miles) or the mean distance from Earth to the sun.)

Voyager 1 currently is at 52 AU (7.8 billion kilometers or 4.9 billion miles
from the sun), and Voyager 2 is at 40 AU (6 billion kilometers or 3.7 billion
miles) from the sun.

Voyager 1 was launched on Sept. 5, 1977 and completed flyby exploration of both
Jupiter and Saturn. The spacecraft now is rising above the ecliptic plane -- the
plane in which most of the planets orbit the sun -- at an angle of about 35
degrees at a rate of about 520 million kilometers (about 320 million miles) a
year.

Voyager 2 was launched on Aug. 20, 1977 and also completed visits to Jupiter and
Saturn and then went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, completing the
reconnaissance of the giant outer planets. The spacecraft is now diving below
the ecliptic plane at an angle of about 48 degrees and a rate of about 470
million kilometers (about 290 million miles) a year.

Gurnett presented his findings today at a meeting of the American Geophysical
Union in Baltimore.

The Voyager Interstellar Mission is managed by JPL for NASA's Office of Space
Science, Washington, D.C.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 09:30:53 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19473;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:28:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:28:11 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227120144.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:28:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
In-Reply-To: <005001c1bfa8$6016c340$8837fea9 computer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"KCLaV2.0.Bm4.fSHVy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46335
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is about the 
>best that can be said for it in 2002.

That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat. There is good 
evidence it works better at high temperatures. Pons and Fleischmann 
achieved their best results with a boiling cell. Most experiments are kept 
at low temperatures, below boiling, but this is only to simplify the 
apparatus. That is, to avoid pressurization. That makes things safer and 
much cheaper. You can use a thin plastic cell with a bent drinking straw 
for a safety valve. A commercial heat engine can be pressurized easily and 
safely.


>And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into electricity has always 
>loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the technology ever become 
>robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."

I do not think it would be an issue. If CF can be tamed at all, and made to 
work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to output ratio 
can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed to convert 
heat into electricity efficiently. Many CF devices produce output with zero 
input energy once the cathode loads. Practical CF devices may require a 
small input power level, for control. Heat after death is interesting from 
a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better if the 
CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope this can 
be arranged!


>Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great options, due 
>to inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues . . .

Steam requires moving parts, which are expensive, noisy and will wear out. 
Thermoelectric conversion has been very inefficient until now, but recent 
breakthroughs may make it an attractive option. Efficiency will make no 
cost difference -- fuel cost will be so small even 1% efficiency would be 
okay -- but heat rejection is a problem. Homeowners do not want a great 
bulky hot, noisy generator in the yard or basement.


>- however, high efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding on the 
>closed-cycle fuel cell, or CCFC.

The ratio of CF power to potential chemical energy in free hydrogen will be 
so large that it will not be economical to use a fuel cell. A simple 
recombiner will do. With at 20 KW CF reactor, suppose input control power 
is 300 watts. A 60% efficient fuel cell might add ~180 watts. You might as 
well burn the hydrogen, convert the heat at 20% and recover only 60 watts 
instead. It would be a lot cheaper and simpler.

There is no reason to think CF efficiency cannot be increased to this ratio 
(~1:60). It already has been, in a few experiments. If CF works at all, it 
can do this.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 10:55:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26553;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:52:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:52:50 -0800
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:45:09 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00af01c1bfbe$e1eece60$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227120144.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ojiHg.0.pU6.2iIVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46336
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> >CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is about the
> >best that can be said for it in 2002.
>
> That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat.

You lost this argument badly once before. Electrolytic CF cannot by nature
produce high-grade heat. Plasma CF might, but that is technically not CF.

> There is good evidence it works better at high temperatures.

That assumes that CF is a thermal process which, of course it is not at all.
There is also good evidence that electrolytic CF it works better at moderate
temperature and high pressure

> Pons and Fleischmann achieved their best results with a boiling cell. Most
experiments are kept  at low temperatures, below boiling, but this is only to
simplify the  apparatus.

No, it is just as likely because good results can be had a lower temperature.
Boiling cells do not produce high grade heat anyway. High grade heat is heat
that can produce thermionization, usually in excess of 1500 degree Fahrenheit.

> >And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into electricity has always
> >loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the technology ever become
> >robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."

> I do not think it would be an issue. If CF can be tamed at all, and made to
> work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to output ratio
> can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed to convert
> heat into electricity efficiently.

This is an absurd statement, obviously stated by a wishful thinker who has never
done experimental energy conversion work and has nothing more than a cursory
understanding of the variables of direct thermal to electric energy conversion.

> Many CF devices produce output with zero input energy once the cathode loads.

That factor, which is a temporary phenomenon, doesn't effect ouptut energy
conversion itself and would be available, if true, to any higher efficiency
conversion scheme

> Heat after death is interesting from
> a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better if the
> CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope this can
> be arranged!

Heat after death is part and parcel of CF. If you understood the situation
better you would also understand why it cannot be eliminated.

> >Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great options, due
> >to inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues . . .

> Steam requires moving parts, which are expensive, noisy and will wear out.
> Thermoelectric conversion has been very inefficient until now, but recent
> breakthroughs may make it an attractive option. Efficiency will make no
> cost difference -- fuel cost will be so small even 1% efficiency would be
> okay -- but heat rejection is a problem. Homeowners do not want a great
> bulky hot, noisy generator in the yard or basement.
>

You could not be more incorrect!!! If you include in "fuel cost" the cost of Pd,
which you must include sometwhere and Pd diminishment over time from gunking and
all the other forms of depletion, then "fuel cost" can be rather high in
propotion to energy ouput. The CF cell most resembles in current consumer
products, a Pb-acid battery which lasts on average about 60 months at low
temperature. At even moderate tempertures, a CF cell would probably need to
recycle its total Pd inventory once or twice a year, maybe more. It will likely
never, therefore, be a good option for home use, but perhaps for neighborhood
use tended to by a professional..

But then again, being so bigotedly-incorrect on these same issues, over and
over, is to be expected, indeed it is almost a trademark of your most recent
postings. I'm just surprised that you haven't yet supplied an archane reference
that supprots the opposite conclusion from the one you intended ... hoping of
course that no one would take the time to call you on it...

> >- however, high efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding on the
> >closed-cycle fuel cell, or CCFC.
>
> The ratio of CF power to potential chemical energy in free hydrogen will be
> so large that it will not be economical to use a fuel cell.

In your dreams perhaps, but not in the real world where Pd depletion and
maintenance costs are variable with output and likely to be very substantial.
High efficiency direct conversion will be of upmost importance

> A simple
> recombiner will do. With at 20 KW CF reactor, suppose input control power
> is 300 watts. A 60% efficient fuel cell might add ~180 watts. You might as
> well burn the hydrogen, convert the heat at 20% and recover only 60 watts
> instead. It would be a lot cheaper and simpler.
>

This further bit of tripe shows you have not the least understanding of the
issues involved here and are wasting my time. There are some very good
objections to my proposal but you have not hit on a single one - surprise,
surprise...

Why don't you go try to find a more gullible audience that will believe that you
have some technical skills other than speaking Japanese. I do not.

Jones Beene




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 11:42:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23610;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:39:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:39:46 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530500b8a2e6c0afda [12.110.74.112]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:43:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: vortex-l rules
Resent-Message-ID: <"UAIfg2.0.em5.1OJVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46337
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

**************************************************************************
Vortex-L Rules:

1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
   making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
   cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
   would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
   moderator, address above.  Any help you can give is sincerely
   appreciated.

2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and
   namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden.  The tone
   should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
   Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having
   some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave
   in disgust.  But if your mind is open, hop on board!  Help us test
   "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away.
   (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND
   THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on WEIRD SCIENCE page.)

3. Small email files please.  The limit is set to 40K right now, those
   exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty.  If you wish to
   start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange
   initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL
   IMMEDIATELY.  Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for
   received email.  Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John
   Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing.

4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the
   ENTIRE message in your reply.  Always edit it a bit and delete
   something.  The more you delete, the less traffic overload.  The entire
   message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a
   message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point
   reply to many parts of a message.  Many vortex users must pay by the
   kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant
   messages are irritating and expensive.  So, when including a quoted
   message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.

5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC
   line of your messages to vortex-L.  In the past this has caused
   thread leakage between different list and redundant messages as
   replies from subscribers go to both lists.  It's OK to manually forward
   mail from other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line
   has only vortex-L and no other list.

6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated.  While not illegal
   yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the
   Unwritten Rules of the Internet.  Anyone who spams vortex-L with junkmail
   will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team.  ;)
   Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is acceptable.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 12:18:23 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12588;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:15:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:15:47 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227143124.00b0a678 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:15:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
In-Reply-To: <00af01c1bfbe$e1eece60$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227120144.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"eASak3.0.O43.mvJVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46338
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

 > That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat.

>You lost this argument badly once before. Electrolytic CF cannot by nature 
>produce high-grade heat. . . .


>. . . Boiling cells do not produce high grade heat anyway. High grade heat 
>is heat that can produce thermionization, usually in excess of 1500 degree 
>Fahrenheit.

That's 815 deg C. That is much hotter than conventional steam turbine 
generator working fluid. Nuclear power plants run at 200 to 300 deg C. they 
are run cooler than combustion plants because nuclear fuel is cheap and a 
lower temperature reduces wear and tear on the equipment. With cheap fuel, 
300 deg C is the optimum temperature.

The flame in a combustion plant is much hotter than the pressurized water 
temperature, but that is temperature difference wastes potential high grade 
energy. It would be better if you could "combust" the fuel in a reaction 
that produces 300 or 500 deg C heat, as close to the working fluid 
temperature as you can make it.


>If CF can be tamed at all, and made to
> > work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to output ratio
> > can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed to convert
> > heat into electricity efficiently.
>
>This is an absurd statement, obviously stated by a wishful thinker who has 
>never done experimental energy conversion work and has nothing more than a 
>cursory understanding of the variables of direct thermal to electric 
>energy conversion.

I suggest you tone it down and read about steam turbine plants, especially 
fission plants.


> > Heat after death is interesting from
> > a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better if the
> > CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope this can
> > be arranged!
>
>Heat after death is part and parcel of CF. If you understood the situation 
>better you would also understand why it cannot be eliminated.

Cannot be? Are you sure about that? I have asked some of the leading 
experimentors and theorists such as McKubre and Hagelstein about heat after 
death. They think it can be controlled or eliminated with things like small 
particles, which deload very rapidly. Perhaps you know something they do 
not know?

As I said, I do not know whether h.a.d. can be controlled. You, Mr. Beene, 
assert that it can. For all I know, you could be right, and you may be a 
leading authority on this subject yourself. I have not read any of your 
published papers, so I wouldn't know about that. But in any case, you 
should state your case carefully with supporting evidence, rather than 
making categorical assertions that contradict the other leading experts. 
You can't expect your Hagelstein to come around to your point of view 
otherwise.


>You could not be more incorrect!!! If you include in "fuel cost" the cost 
>of Pd, which you must include sometwhere and Pd diminishment over time 
>from gunking and all the other forms of depletion, then "fuel cost" can be 
>rather high in propotion to energy ouput.

That's incorrect. The net output of energy from some cells compared to the 
mass of Pd is already so high, even if the Pd was entirely consumed 
(transmuted or gunked up) the Pd fuel cost would be cheaper than the cost 
of U fuel consumed in fission, or than any chemical fuel. Only a few cells 
have achieved such high net output, but once the reaction is understood and 
controlled, they all will be optimized to this level.

Also, it seems likely that cheaper metals will be used instead of Pd.

In another possible approach, Takahashi thinks that CF with a depleted U 
cathode may trigger aneutronic fission. The fission energy would produce 
much more energy than the fusion reaction that triggers it. U fuel costs 
would be much cheaper than a conventional fission reactor.


>But then again, being so bigotedly-incorrect on these same issues, over 
>and over, is to be expected, indeed it is almost a trademark of your most 
>recent postings.

I think you should simmer down, and stop posting such intemperate comments. 
They are not suited to this forum. My recent postings have included the 
usual quota polite weasel words appropriate to academic discourse, such as, 
"I think the authors would also disagree, based on Table 10." That is not 
an aggressive or absolutist tone. Furthermore, as it happens, I contacted 
the authors to find out whether I am right or not, and I will report back 
when they respond.


> > A simple
> > recombiner will do. With at 20 KW CF reactor, suppose input control power
> > is 300 watts. A 60% efficient fuel cell might add ~180 watts. You might as
> > well burn the hydrogen, convert the heat at 20% and recover only 60 watts
> > instead. It would be a lot cheaper and simpler.
> >
>
>This further bit of tripe shows you have not the least understanding of 
>the issues involved here and are wasting my time.

Why, exactly, is that "tripe"? What do you reckon the conversion efficiency 
of fuel cells versus thermal processes to be? My numbers come from the JPL 
and other authoritative sources. Why do you think a 1:60 ratio of input to 
output is unlikely in CF? I admit, I pulled that out of a hat to serve as 
an example, but similar ratios have already been observed in actual working 
cells. Are you saying that commercial products can never, even in 
principle, achieve performance that has already been demonstrated in the 
lab? Why not?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 12:28:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19671;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:27:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:27:21 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227151921.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:27:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"KTzog2.0.9p4.f4KVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46339
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote:

"As I said, I do not know whether h.a.d. can be controlled. You, Mr. Beene, 
assert that it can. . . ."

Meant ". . . assert it CANNOT." Voice input acting up a little.


"The net output of energy from some cells compared to the mass of Pd is 
already so high, even if the Pd was entirely consumed (transmuted or gunked 
up) the Pd fuel cost would be cheaper than the cost of U fuel consumed in 
fission . . ."

I have in mind some of the thin film and carbon catalyst experiments, which 
use milligram levels of Pd. Of course it is very inaccurate to extrapolate 
from such crude experiments, but within broad ranges I think they prove 
that CF once optimized will be much cheaper than conventional fission or 
chemical energy. Whether it can be optimize, or will be, is a different 
question. I do not think it can be commercialized at all, in any form, 
unless it can also be optimized and controlled. It would be too dangerous.

There are uncontrolled energy sources in common use, especially coal and 
nuclear plants in Russia. The coal supplies sometimes become wet, which 
causes unpredictable combustion and explosions. Such performance would not 
be acceptable in the U.S. I spoke with an engineer from the U.S. TVA who is 
helping the Russians fix the problem.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 12:33:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21947;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:31:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:31:34 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7D41F0.FB0E7B37 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:30:40 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: vortex-l rules
References: <v01530500b8a2e6c0afda [12.110.74.112]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"w-d5k1.0.rM5.b8KVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46340
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Vortex-L Rules:
> 
> 1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
>    making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
>    cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
>    would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
>    moderator, address above.  Any help you can give is sincerely
>    appreciated.
> 


Could someone post that address?  I think I owe for two years.

TIA,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 12:58:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02450;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:53:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:53:48 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7D3A80.666D90AE ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:59:54 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227120144.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com> <00af01c1bfbe$e1eece60$8837fea9@computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"kt9hb1.0.9c.STKVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46341
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Jones and Jed,
I hate to get involved in another person's cat fight, but some misunderstanding
needs to be clear up.

Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>
> > >CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is about the
> > >best that can be said for it in 2002.
> >
> > That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat.
>
> You lost this argument badly once before. Electrolytic CF cannot by nature
> produce high-grade heat. Plasma CF might, but that is technically not CF.

Perhaps the electrolytic method can not make high grade heat in the conventional
sense, but the Case method seems to produce heat as high as 250°C.  This
temperature is well into the range where thermoelectric conversion would be
practical.

>
>
> > There is good evidence it works better at high temperatures.
>
> That assumes that CF is a thermal process which, of course it is not at all.

No, it does not assume CF is a thermal process.  The observation is that the
nuclear-active-environment within the Pd lattice becomes more stable as temperature
is increased up to some limit.  Consequently, more of the environment necessary to
trigger a nuclear reaction becomes available, hence more reaction.

>
> There is also good evidence that electrolytic CF it works better at moderate
> temperature and high pressure

I know of no evidence supporting this assertion.

>
>
> > Pons and Fleischmann achieved their best results with a boiling cell. Most
> experiments are kept  at low temperatures, below boiling, but this is only to
> simplify the  apparatus.
>
> No, it is just as likely because good results can be had a lower temperature.
> Boiling cells do not produce high grade heat anyway. High grade heat is heat
> that can produce thermionization, usually in excess of 1500 degree Fahrenheit.

Granted, the higher the temperature, the more efficient are normal conversion
methods.  However, thermoelectric methods do not suffer the Carnot problem, hence
can be used at lower temperatures with good efficiency.

>
>
> > >And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into electricity has always
> > >loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the technology ever become
> > >robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."
>
> > I do not think it would be an issue. If CF can be tamed at all, and made to
> > work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to output ratio
> > can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed to convert
> > heat into electricity efficiently.
>
> This is an absurd statement, obviously stated by a wishful thinker who has never
> done experimental energy conversion work and has nothing more than a cursory
> understanding of the variables of direct thermal to electric energy conversion.

Any CF device for the home would use both waste heat and electricity, hence nothing
would be wasted.  Conversion efficiency using thermoelectrics is moving upward.
This efficiency would control just how big the CF cell would have to be in order to
satisfy the electric needs.   The question is whether CF can be made sufficiently
over unity to allow the CF system to be small and cheap enough for a normal home.
This question has not yet been answered and will not be answered until years of
serious study have been invested.

>
>
> > Many CF devices produce output with zero input energy once the cathode loads.
>
> That factor, which is a temporary phenomenon, doesn't effect ouptut energy
> conversion itself and would be available, if true, to any higher efficiency
> conversion scheme
>
> > Heat after death is interesting from
> > a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better if the
> > CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope this can
> > be arranged!
>
> Heat after death is part and parcel of CF. If you understood the situation
> better you would also understand why it cannot be eliminated.

No, heat after death is rare.  I, for one, have never seen it occur.

>
>
> > >Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great options, due
> > >to inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues . . .
>
> > Steam requires moving parts, which are expensive, noisy and will wear out.
> > Thermoelectric conversion has been very inefficient until now, but recent
> > breakthroughs may make it an attractive option. Efficiency will make no
> > cost difference -- fuel cost will be so small even 1% efficiency would be
> > okay -- but heat rejection is a problem. Homeowners do not want a great
> > bulky hot, noisy generator in the yard or basement.
> >
>
> You could not be more incorrect!!! If you include in "fuel cost" the cost of Pd,
> which you must include sometwhere and Pd diminishment over time from gunking and
> all the other forms of depletion, then "fuel cost" can be rather high in
> propotion to energy ouput. The CF cell most resembles in current consumer
> products, a Pb-acid battery which lasts on average about 60 months at low
> temperature. At even moderate tempertures, a CF cell would probably need to
> recycle its total Pd inventory once or twice a year, maybe more. It will likely
> never, therefore, be a good option for home use, but perhaps for neighborhood
> use tended to by a professional..

Unfortunately, the lifetime of Pd in a CF environment is not known.  Consequently,
any assertion on either side of the issue is based on pure speculation.
Fortunately, many other cheaper materials are apparently nuclear-active so that the
expense of the nuclear-active-environment may not be a major issue.

>
> > >- however, high efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding on the
> > >closed-cycle fuel cell, or CCFC.
> >
> > The ratio of CF power to potential chemical energy in free hydrogen will be
> > so large that it will not be economical to use a fuel cell.
>
> In your dreams perhaps, but not in the real world where Pd depletion and
> maintenance costs are variable with output and likely to be very substantial.
> High efficiency direct conversion will be of upmost importance

The beauty of CF is that the basic fuel, D2, is so cheap compared to its energy
content.  This is not true of H2 used in a fuel cell.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 13:27:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17426;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:24:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:24:01 -0800
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:16:18 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <00c701c1bfd3$ffb15160$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227151921.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"nslmo2.0.4G4.mvKVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46342
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

Excuse my previous impertenance in suggesting that your first reply to my
original posting was anything less than an honest attempt to advance each others
understanding..  I guess I was a little miffed about why you never menioned
anything about the actual idea itself.

All of the points you made previously  [for the benefit of those who haven't
followed vortex closely over the years] tended to expound on well-trodden
extraneous issues from past postings where we have argued and reargued. In the
past, I have been willing to let you have the last word on those (is it possible
to do otherwise?) but that doesn't mean that it is necessary restate them yet
once again when a creative,  unrelated and serious proposal has been set
forward.

It took me some time to devise the proposed scheme, and it is not fair to
tarnish it with your strongly held views on whether some other (failed) process
will make my scheme unneeded.

This is why I reacted as I did. And it is especially true since you are well
aware from previous posts that I, for one, believe that your optimism for old
style CF [as it is presently practiced] is completely misguided - but that is
NOT the point. We can argue that elsewhere if you desire, but why should I care
if you stubbornly harbor notions about steam conversion, Pd substitution, and so
forth when that is unrelated to whether of not a brand new proposal with some
creative ideas and some borrowed ideas - a compound cell of the type that I set
forth - can be made to work - even if that idea turns out to be only a stopgap
measure.

Since those other issues you have raised don't relate to the relevance of my
proposal, I will only respond to the following (again, let me make it clear that
in letting you have the last word on those extraneous issues in no way signals
anything but respect for your seniority and the depth of your convictions, not
the assertions themselves, which are flawed).

> "The net output of energy from some cells compared to the mass of Pd is
> already so high, even if the Pd was entirely consumed (transmuted or gunked
> up) the Pd fuel cost would be cheaper than the cost of U fuel consumed in
> fission . . ."

Pd costs ~400 an ounce now and will go much higher if CF takes off - and if an
ounce is gunked up in six months in a 30 kw  output thermal cell that must
depend on thermoelectric conversion at 5% efficiency (all of which assumptions
are very optimistic)  then you have produced about 60 Megawatt Hours thermal
during peak usage hours with a value of about $1800 or two to four time the
value of the Pd, not to mention any other costs. That just won't fly!!  and is
thousands of times more than the cost of thermal energy from U, the price of
which has recently gone way down in cost to less than $20/ kg on the
international market.

All of these kind of "costs" reflect ever-changing political realities but the
point is that Pd just cannot ever work without a very high efficiency conversion
methodology to back it up and my scheme has the potential to provide maybe 4-6
times more hydrogen per KWH consumed than in even the most efficient form of
electrolysis - an estimate based on actual results with the old AHR (aqueous
homogeneous reactor).

That scheme itself is the only reason that I posted, but maybe your (perceived)
dominance over the content that appears on this forum is so great that I should
have cleared it with you first.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 14:52:36 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22910;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:39:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:39:32 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227170636.00b02d98 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:39:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
In-Reply-To: <00c701c1bfd3$ffb15160$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227151921.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"CC7JB2.0.Wb5.T0MVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46343
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>Pd costs ~400 an ounce now and will go much higher if CF takes off - and 
>if an ounce is gunked up in six months in a 30 kw  output thermal cell 
>that must depend on thermoelectric conversion at 5% efficiency (all of 
>which assumptions are very optimistic)

There are several problems with this:

I do not think anyone would make a thermoelectric device that is only 5% 
efficient, except for niche applications. If that is the best they can do, 
they will stick with steam turbines. 30 KW electricity seems a little large 
for a home generator, but anyway, it would need 600 KW heat, which I think 
is too hot and dangerous for practical use in a house or automobile.

If CF takes off, and palladium is used as the cathode material, demand for 
palladium would not merely skyrocket. In 1989, Fleischmann pointed out that 
at the energy densities he demonstrated, the entire world supply of 
palladium would not be enough. It that is how it must work, CF is a 
non-starter. The only hope is to make devices which use other metals, or 
thin film palladium, or devices with much higher power density than 
anything demonstrated until now.

A major use of palladium today is the automobile catalytic converter. 
Stretched into thin film, there is enough palladium in the world to put 
some in most automobiles and trucks. Oil based transportation uses 16% of 
the world's energy. In other words, Pd is already a key component in 16% of 
the world's energy production. It may be that the active surface area of a 
cold fusion device would not be much larger than today's catalytic 
converter, and of course converters would no longer be needed, so overall 
consumption may not increase more than 6 or 10 times.

Increased demand would spur improved prospecting and extraction.  Some of 
these methods would be energy intensive, but that would not matter.

It is not yet certain whether the palladium would actually be used up, or 
whether it would still be in the motor after being gunked up. It might be 
recycled and reused. Note that much of the Pd used in catalytic converters 
*is* lost to the environment. A CF cell would be tightly sealed, so 
although CF might require much more Pd initially, the actually amount lost 
per year, that has to be replaced, might be less than it is today.


>. . . then you have produced about 60 Megawatt Hours thermal during peak 
>usage hours with a value of about $1800 or two to four time the value of 
>the Pd, not to mention any other costs. That just won't fly!!

I don't understand this sentence. Where does the $1,800 come from? Anyway, 
the Pd value would (probably) not be lost. The only expense would be to 
recycle and recover the Pd. This would be done on a large scale, with great 
efficiency.


>. . . and is thousands of times more than the cost of thermal energy from 
>U, the price of which has recently gone way down in cost to less than $20/ 
>kg on the international market.

That is the cost of unprocessed U. When it is made into fuel, the 
processing pushes the cost up to about $1000 / kg. That is still cheaper 
than coal. See:

http://www.uic.com.au/nfc.htm

See bottom of page: "Total cost is thus about US$ 630 for 1 kg enriched 
fuel, plus about $400 for actual fuel fabrication. This will yield about 
3900 GJ thermal energy at modern burn-up rates, or about 360,000 kWh of 
electricity, and does the same job as about 160 tonnes of steaming coal for 
a total cost of 0.28 cents/kWh (US$)."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 16:08:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07411;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:05:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:05:19 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227183954.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:05:31 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"R0TWH3.0.cp1._GNVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46344
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Okay, I found some authoritative looking information about the use of 
palladium in catalytic converters. See:

http://www.aquilineresources.com/ar/palladium.htm

Quote: "During the last ten years (1988-98) Palladium consumption in 
catalytic converters has increased from 270,000 to nearly 3,500,000 ounces 
per year. The average use of Palladium per car is now 4 grams if one 
converter is deployed, but Honda has installed as many as four converters 
per car. With total world consumption of Palladium now at estimated at 
slightly over 8,000,000 ounces, auto catalyst applications now account for 
more than 40% in contrast to 8% ten years ago. Palladium has overtaken 
Platinum as the principal metal in catalytic converters almost at a 2:1 
ratio compared to a Platinum to Palladium ratio of consumption of 6:1 in 1988."


Okay, the best thin film palladium CF performance I have heard of was about 
60 milligrams per kilowatt. I assume a hybrid automobile would need roughly 
100 KW heat to produce 20 KW electricity . . . So that would take on the 
order of 6 grams per car. Not too much more than cars presently need, as I 
suspected. But cars are only 16% of all energy, so you would need at least 
6 times that, or 18 million ounces per year, which is much more than the 
world now produces (8 million).

However, as I suspected, other sources say that only a fraction of the 
palladium from converters can be recycled, and palladium and platinum 
levels along roadsides are climbing, probably from converters breaking 
down. I think more Pd would be needed at first. I am not sure what the 
total world stock is like, but I suspect that at the rate of 60 mg/KW, 
there would be enough. Naturally, it would take a long time to replace all 
energy generation with Pd CF. Twenty to 30 years, I suppose. During those 
20 years, 160 million ounces would be mined (4.5 billion grams). Unless it 
transmutes, most of it would still be sitting in CF cells, ready to be 
recycled.

Total world energy consumption in 1985 was 166 million barrels equivalent 
per day (Sci. Am., Sept. 1990, p. 59) . . . Perhaps someone would be kind 
enough to compute out how much Pd that would take, at various different 
power densities? I am a little tired. Here is a handy unit conversion tool:

http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 17:19:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12746;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:16:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:16:46 -0800
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:09:04 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <010301c1bff4$84155300$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227183954.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"NFymM1.0.473.zJOVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46345
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> Okay, the best thin film palladium CF performance I have heard of was about
> 60 milligrams per kilowatt. I assume a hybrid automobile would need roughly
> 100 KW heat to produce 20 KW electricity . . . So that would take on the
> order of 6 grams per car.

It would be a big mistake to extrapolate from the best short term results all
the way forward to a commercial product -i.e. it makes no sense that that best
figure could ever approach the norm for a long term solution. 60 milligrams of a
dense metal over a large surface area would be almost transparent and in a
corrosive electrolytic envrionment would not last very long.

If the average garage charges $50/ hour for labor then changing anything complex
is going to be costly - so the putative CF cell would have to be over-designed
so that it would last many months of continuous use before it is recycled. The
Pd could be recycled of course, but I have emailed a Johnson Matthey rep just
today and am expecting to be told what others have reported : that the recycled
product is not significantly less costly, in general, but that there are many
recyclers of mufflers who sell comparatively cheap "mixed" nobles.

It is way too early to speculate on how much Pd would be reqired per KWH in a
low mainternace automotive design but it could be orders of magnitude greater
than your estimate. And whereas the average car gets many years out of a
muffler, there is little prospect of getting anything more than months of normal
use out of a reactor that requires corrosive electrolytes to be maintained at
elevated temperature. Imagine how many microseconds a lead-acid battery with a
60 milligram electrode would last...

> Unless it  transmutes, most of it would still be sitting in CF cells, ready to
be
> recycled.

There is good evidence, and you have reported on some of it, that Pd does indeed
transmute to a surprisingly large degree. It wouldn't surprise me if most of the
excess energy of CF comes from Pd and/or lithium decay reactions following
deuterium stripping and almost none from actual fusion.

Untill someone can show actual significant gamma emission form a CF cell, the
assumption would have to be made by any prudent scientist that some other
process than fusion is reponsible for excess energy - and there are well-known
pathways for Pd decay that are gamma-less and also produce helium (alpha
particles). But there are no known pathways for fusion without either gammas or
energetic neutrons, both easy to measure.

FWIW, Pd decay as the operative mechanism of CF also elegantly explains "heat
after death."

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 18:19:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13372;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:16:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:16:32 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b8a3443c66f7 [12.21.209.157]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:20:00 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: vortex-l rules
Resent-Message-ID: <"piga22.0.hG3.-BPVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46346
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 3:30 PM 2/27/2, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>> **************************************************************************
>> Vortex-L Rules:
>>
>> 1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
>>    making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
>>    cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
>>    would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
>>    moderator, address above.  Any help you can give is sincerely
>>    appreciated.
>>
>
>
>Could someone post that address?  I think I owe for two years.
>
>TIA,
>
>Terry


Moderator:  billb eskimo.com
            William J. Beaty
            7040 22nd Ave NW
            Seattle, WA 98117
            206-781-3320 USA

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 18:41:21 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24417;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:38:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:38:47 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.174]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:38:13 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F30TMZcFMGLT3POyllz00001e76 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2002 02:38:13.0834 (UTC) FILETIME=[F81E1AA0:01C1C000]
Resent-Message-ID: <"8b9dW2.0.Rz5.sWPVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46347
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ed,

I, for one, much appreciate your attempt to clear the air in this manner.

Minor point:  To my knowledge, thermoelectric devices are heat engines that 
are indeed Carnot limited.  However, recent developments in both 
thermoelectric and thermionic conversion suggest that performance is sharply 
improving.  Efficiencies in thermoelectrics, as I recall, are percentages of 
Carnot efficiency.

For examples of interesting improvements in thermoelectrics, see the work of 
HIGH-Z.

For those in thermionics see Borealis and ENECO's claims.

Superconductors are known to improve the efficiencies of thermoelectric 
devices when they are used to replace the leg having the lower Figure of 
Merit.  This is usually the N leg.

Our Ultraconductors were tested for this effect on a DOD contract and 
performed as well as cryogenic superconductors.  We were invited to apply 
for a Phase II Contract, and declined, as it appears private funding will 
become available for this purpose in the future without the limitations 
regarding patent rights that federal contracts involve.

Funding for all our work has been delayed, partly by economic conditions, 
and partly as the result of a seven figure investment, due to close at the 
end of September, by a group located in a building across from the World 
Trade Center, coming to an abrupt halt on 9/11.

Mark Goldes, CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.


>From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:59:54 -0600
>
>Dear Jones and Jed,
>I hate to get involved in another person's cat fight, but some 
>misunderstanding
>needs to be clear up.
>
>Jones Beene wrote:
>
> > From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> >
> > > >CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is about 
>the
> > > >best that can be said for it in 2002.
> > >
> > > That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat.
> >
> > You lost this argument badly once before. Electrolytic CF cannot by 
>nature
> > produce high-grade heat. Plasma CF might, but that is technically not 
>CF.
>
>Perhaps the electrolytic method can not make high grade heat in the 
>conventional
>sense, but the Case method seems to produce heat as high as 250°C.  This
>temperature is well into the range where thermoelectric conversion would be
>practical.
>
> >
> >
> > > There is good evidence it works better at high temperatures.
> >
> > That assumes that CF is a thermal process which, of course it is not at 
>all.
>
>No, it does not assume CF is a thermal process.  The observation is that 
>the
>nuclear-active-environment within the Pd lattice becomes more stable as 
>temperature
>is increased up to some limit.  Consequently, more of the environment 
>necessary to
>trigger a nuclear reaction becomes available, hence more reaction.
>
> >
> > There is also good evidence that electrolytic CF it works better at 
>moderate
> > temperature and high pressure
>
>I know of no evidence supporting this assertion.
>
> >
> >
> > > Pons and Fleischmann achieved their best results with a boiling cell. 
>Most
> > experiments are kept  at low temperatures, below boiling, but this is 
>only to
> > simplify the  apparatus.
> >
> > No, it is just as likely because good results can be had a lower 
>temperature.
> > Boiling cells do not produce high grade heat anyway. High grade heat is 
>heat
> > that can produce thermionization, usually in excess of 1500 degree 
>Fahrenheit.
>
>Granted, the higher the temperature, the more efficient are normal 
>conversion
>methods.  However, thermoelectric methods do not suffer the Carnot problem, 
>hence
>can be used at lower temperatures with good efficiency.
>
> >
> >
> > > >And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into electricity has 
>always
> > > >loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the technology ever 
>become
> > > >robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."
> >
> > > I do not think it would be an issue. If CF can be tamed at all, and 
>made to
> > > work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to output 
>ratio
> > > can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed to 
>convert
> > > heat into electricity efficiently.
> >
> > This is an absurd statement, obviously stated by a wishful thinker who 
>has never
> > done experimental energy conversion work and has nothing more than a 
>cursory
> > understanding of the variables of direct thermal to electric energy 
>conversion.
>
>Any CF device for the home would use both waste heat and electricity, hence 
>nothing
>would be wasted.  Conversion efficiency using thermoelectrics is moving 
>upward.
>This efficiency would control just how big the CF cell would have to be in 
>order to
>satisfy the electric needs.   The question is whether CF can be made 
>sufficiently
>over unity to allow the CF system to be small and cheap enough for a normal 
>home.
>This question has not yet been answered and will not be answered until 
>years of
>serious study have been invested.
>
> >
> >
> > > Many CF devices produce output with zero input energy once the cathode 
>loads.
> >
> > That factor, which is a temporary phenomenon, doesn't effect ouptut 
>energy
> > conversion itself and would be available, if true, to any higher 
>efficiency
> > conversion scheme
> >
> > > Heat after death is interesting from
> > > a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better if 
>the
> > > CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope 
>this can
> > > be arranged!
> >
> > Heat after death is part and parcel of CF. If you understood the 
>situation
> > better you would also understand why it cannot be eliminated.
>
>No, heat after death is rare.  I, for one, have never seen it occur.
>
> >
> >
> > > >Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great 
>options, due
> > > >to inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues . . .
> >
> > > Steam requires moving parts, which are expensive, noisy and will wear 
>out.
> > > Thermoelectric conversion has been very inefficient until now, but 
>recent
> > > breakthroughs may make it an attractive option. Efficiency will make 
>no
> > > cost difference -- fuel cost will be so small even 1% efficiency would 
>be
> > > okay -- but heat rejection is a problem. Homeowners do not want a 
>great
> > > bulky hot, noisy generator in the yard or basement.
> > >
> >
> > You could not be more incorrect!!! If you include in "fuel cost" the 
>cost of Pd,
> > which you must include sometwhere and Pd diminishment over time from 
>gunking and
> > all the other forms of depletion, then "fuel cost" can be rather high in
> > propotion to energy ouput. The CF cell most resembles in current 
>consumer
> > products, a Pb-acid battery which lasts on average about 60 months at 
>low
> > temperature. At even moderate tempertures, a CF cell would probably need 
>to
> > recycle its total Pd inventory once or twice a year, maybe more. It will 
>likely
> > never, therefore, be a good option for home use, but perhaps for 
>neighborhood
> > use tended to by a professional..
>
>Unfortunately, the lifetime of Pd in a CF environment is not known.  
>Consequently,
>any assertion on either side of the issue is based on pure speculation.
>Fortunately, many other cheaper materials are apparently nuclear-active so 
>that the
>expense of the nuclear-active-environment may not be a major issue.
>
> >
> > > >- however, high efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding on 
>the
> > > >closed-cycle fuel cell, or CCFC.
> > >
> > > The ratio of CF power to potential chemical energy in free hydrogen 
>will be
> > > so large that it will not be economical to use a fuel cell.
> >
> > In your dreams perhaps, but not in the real world where Pd depletion and
> > maintenance costs are variable with output and likely to be very 
>substantial.
> > High efficiency direct conversion will be of upmost importance
>
>The beauty of CF is that the basic fuel, D2, is so cheap compared to its 
>energy
>content.  This is not true of H2 used in a fuel cell.
>
>Ed
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 18:50:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30836;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:49:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:49:20 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020227215041.007abb90 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:50:41 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
In-Reply-To: <010301c1bff4$84155300$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227183954.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"LbiQ92.0.eX7.lgPVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46348
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>It would be a big mistake to extrapolate from the best short term results all
>the way forward to a commercial product -i.e. it makes no sense that that
best
>figure could ever approach the norm for a long term solution.

That is very true! The best figure achieved so far was with a primitive
cells that nobody understood, running at temperatures and conditions far
below known optimum levels. No doubt commercial products will be better,
perhaps orders of magnitude better.


> 60 milligrams of a
>dense metal over a large surface area would be almost transparent and in a
>corrosive electrolytic envrionment would not last very long.

That would depend on the size of the surface, wouldn't it? You don't need
much. The 60 mg cathodes were pretty thick, and they lasted for a couple of
months, I think. Actually, few people expect an electrolytic environment
will be used in commercial cells. Gas loading is more likely. Gas samples
remain intact for months or years, but perhaps they would transmute away in
heavy use.


>There is good evidence, and you have reported on some of it, that Pd does
indeed
>transmute to a surprisingly large degree.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, usually they do not measure it. Takahashi and
others think the amount of host metal that participates in the reaction
might be controlled.

In any case, there are many, many reasons to think that Pd price or
consumption will not be a showstopper. Yes, it could be a serious problem.
I think Martin said that if only half the world production of Pd could be
used for CF energy, and it was consumed, CF might supply 20% of electricity
from large generators, the way fission does today. But if Ni, U some other
cheap metal works the whole issue vanishes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 21:22:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13005;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:21:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:21:42 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020228002312.00798a00 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:23:12 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: J-M, Pd, catalytic converters . . .
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"zwYuS1.0.7B3.cvRVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46350
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I read various documents this afternoon about catalytic converters and Pd.
Naturally, the name Johnson-Matthey came up often. They are the world's
biggest supplier of Pd I believe. Just now I got to thinking . . .

Over the years, it seems to me J-M has been distinctly unfriendly toward
CF. Also uninterested and uncooperative. They once made material that works
100% of the time. I am sure they could make it again, but whenever I
enquired, they said we would have to jump through hoops and pay tens of
thousands to buy some. I used to wonder why a company would sit on a
technology worth trillions when they control the market for the main
component. Suddenly, it hit me. They are not fools. Someone in J-M is
probably following developments in this field. They must know that other
metals, such as Ni, are promising, and that Pd will probably not be the
metal of choice in a commercial CF reactor. And what would happen to their
biggest market for Pd if CF succeeds? It would vanish. There would be no
need for catalytic converters. Not only would 40% of the demand for Pd
disappear, remaining stocks and production would more than meet remaining
demand, so the price would crash. They would lose a lot more than 40% of
their income.

Of course I have no proof of this, and we will probably never know, but it
is the only logical explanation for their behavior.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 27 21:22:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12300;
	Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:19:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:19:56 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7DB123.ECC6268C ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:25:11 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
References: <F30TMZcFMGLT3POyllz00001e76 hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qJPA-3.0.403.xtRVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46349
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Mark Goldes wrote:

> Ed,
>
> I, for one, much appreciate your attempt to clear the air in this manner.
>
> Minor point:  To my knowledge, thermoelectric devices are heat engines that
> are indeed Carnot limited.

Mark, according to my understanding of the Carnot cycle, it applies to
conditions where work is done through a difference in temperature and it was
derived using changes in gas pressure.  A thermoelectric device does no work in
this manner.  The question is, do electrons act like atoms, i.e. do they have a
pressure that changes with temperature thereby allowing application of the same
logic?  I suggest the same logic can not be applied.

I agree, thermoelectric devices have a built in inefficiency because energy
must pass through them while they generate an electron current.  The issue is
whether this inefficiency has any relationship to the Carnot limit. I suggest
people use the Carnot limit in this application to make the efficiencies look
better when they are compared to other methods that use Carnot properly.

Ed

> However, recent developments in both
> thermoelectric and thermionic conversion suggest that performance is sharply
> improving.  Efficiencies in thermoelectrics, as I recall, are percentages of
> Carnot efficiency.
>
> For examples of interesting improvements in thermoelectrics, see the work of
> HIGH-Z.
>
> For those in thermionics see Borealis and ENECO's claims.
>
> Superconductors are known to improve the efficiencies of thermoelectric
> devices when they are used to replace the leg having the lower Figure of
> Merit.  This is usually the N leg.
>
> Our Ultraconductors were tested for this effect on a DOD contract and
> performed as well as cryogenic superconductors.  We were invited to apply
> for a Phase II Contract, and declined, as it appears private funding will
> become available for this purpose in the future without the limitations
> regarding patent rights that federal contracts involve.
>
> Funding for all our work has been delayed, partly by economic conditions,
> and partly as the result of a seven figure investment, due to close at the
> end of September, by a group located in a building across from the World
> Trade Center, coming to an abrupt halt on 9/11.
>
> Mark Goldes, CEO
> Magnetic Power Inc.
> Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.
>
> >From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
> >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:59:54 -0600
> >
> >Dear Jones and Jed,
> >I hate to get involved in another person's cat fight, but some
> >misunderstanding
> >needs to be clear up.
> >
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> > > From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> > >
> > > > >CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is about
> >the
> > > > >best that can be said for it in 2002.
> > > >
> > > > That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat.
> > >
> > > You lost this argument badly once before. Electrolytic CF cannot by
> >nature
> > > produce high-grade heat. Plasma CF might, but that is technically not
> >CF.
> >
> >Perhaps the electrolytic method can not make high grade heat in the
> >conventional
> >sense, but the Case method seems to produce heat as high as 250°C.  This
> >temperature is well into the range where thermoelectric conversion would be
> >practical.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > There is good evidence it works better at high temperatures.
> > >
> > > That assumes that CF is a thermal process which, of course it is not at
> >all.
> >
> >No, it does not assume CF is a thermal process.  The observation is that
> >the
> >nuclear-active-environment within the Pd lattice becomes more stable as
> >temperature
> >is increased up to some limit.  Consequently, more of the environment
> >necessary to
> >trigger a nuclear reaction becomes available, hence more reaction.
> >
> > >
> > > There is also good evidence that electrolytic CF it works better at
> >moderate
> > > temperature and high pressure
> >
> >I know of no evidence supporting this assertion.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Pons and Fleischmann achieved their best results with a boiling cell.
> >Most
> > > experiments are kept  at low temperatures, below boiling, but this is
> >only to
> > > simplify the  apparatus.
> > >
> > > No, it is just as likely because good results can be had a lower
> >temperature.
> > > Boiling cells do not produce high grade heat anyway. High grade heat is
> >heat
> > > that can produce thermionization, usually in excess of 1500 degree
> >Fahrenheit.
> >
> >Granted, the higher the temperature, the more efficient are normal
> >conversion
> >methods.  However, thermoelectric methods do not suffer the Carnot problem,
> >hence
> >can be used at lower temperatures with good efficiency.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into electricity has
> >always
> > > > >loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the technology ever
> >become
> > > > >robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."
> > >
> > > > I do not think it would be an issue. If CF can be tamed at all, and
> >made to
> > > > work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to output
> >ratio
> > > > can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed to
> >convert
> > > > heat into electricity efficiently.
> > >
> > > This is an absurd statement, obviously stated by a wishful thinker who
> >has never
> > > done experimental energy conversion work and has nothing more than a
> >cursory
> > > understanding of the variables of direct thermal to electric energy
> >conversion.
> >
> >Any CF device for the home would use both waste heat and electricity, hence
> >nothing
> >would be wasted.  Conversion efficiency using thermoelectrics is moving
> >upward.
> >This efficiency would control just how big the CF cell would have to be in
> >order to
> >satisfy the electric needs.   The question is whether CF can be made
> >sufficiently
> >over unity to allow the CF system to be small and cheap enough for a normal
> >home.
> >This question has not yet been answered and will not be answered until
> >years of
> >serious study have been invested.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Many CF devices produce output with zero input energy once the cathode
> >loads.
> > >
> > > That factor, which is a temporary phenomenon, doesn't effect ouptut
> >energy
> > > conversion itself and would be available, if true, to any higher
> >efficiency
> > > conversion scheme
> > >
> > > > Heat after death is interesting from
> > > > a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better if
> >the
> > > > CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope
> >this can
> > > > be arranged!
> > >
> > > Heat after death is part and parcel of CF. If you understood the
> >situation
> > > better you would also understand why it cannot be eliminated.
> >
> >No, heat after death is rare.  I, for one, have never seen it occur.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great
> >options, due
> > > > >to inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues . . .
> > >
> > > > Steam requires moving parts, which are expensive, noisy and will wear
> >out.
> > > > Thermoelectric conversion has been very inefficient until now, but
> >recent
> > > > breakthroughs may make it an attractive option. Efficiency will make
> >no
> > > > cost difference -- fuel cost will be so small even 1% efficiency would
> >be
> > > > okay -- but heat rejection is a problem. Homeowners do not want a
> >great
> > > > bulky hot, noisy generator in the yard or basement.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You could not be more incorrect!!! If you include in "fuel cost" the
> >cost of Pd,
> > > which you must include sometwhere and Pd diminishment over time from
> >gunking and
> > > all the other forms of depletion, then "fuel cost" can be rather high in
> > > propotion to energy ouput. The CF cell most resembles in current
> >consumer
> > > products, a Pb-acid battery which lasts on average about 60 months at
> >low
> > > temperature. At even moderate tempertures, a CF cell would probably need
> >to
> > > recycle its total Pd inventory once or twice a year, maybe more. It will
> >likely
> > > never, therefore, be a good option for home use, but perhaps for
> >neighborhood
> > > use tended to by a professional..
> >
> >Unfortunately, the lifetime of Pd in a CF environment is not known.
> >Consequently,
> >any assertion on either side of the issue is based on pure speculation.
> >Fortunately, many other cheaper materials are apparently nuclear-active so
> >that the
> >expense of the nuclear-active-environment may not be a major issue.
> >
> > >
> > > > >- however, high efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding on
> >the
> > > > >closed-cycle fuel cell, or CCFC.
> > > >
> > > > The ratio of CF power to potential chemical energy in free hydrogen
> >will be
> > > > so large that it will not be economical to use a fuel cell.
> > >
> > > In your dreams perhaps, but not in the real world where Pd depletion and
> > > maintenance costs are variable with output and likely to be very
> >substantial.
> > > High efficiency direct conversion will be of upmost importance
> >
> >The beauty of CF is that the basic fuel, D2, is so cheap compared to its
> >energy
> >content.  This is not true of H2 used in a fuel cell.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 06:58:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15468;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:55:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:55:58 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.158]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:55:27 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F388FNpyLAPDVXLuSbh000025a8 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2002 14:55:27.0664 (UTC) FILETIME=[F588EB00:01C1C067]
Resent-Message-ID: <"pN_7l2.0.cn3.-JaVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46351
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ed,

You may well be right.  Historically, there have been attampts to consider 
fuel cells and photovoltaics as Carnot limited, but these have been put to 
rest for many years now.

If thermoelectrics are not Carnot limited, efficiencies may be remarkably 
high in the near future.  Perhaps in excess of 45%!

See HIGH-Zs work for further information.  They manufacture heat-to-electric 
TE devices.

Mark


>From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:25:11 -0600
>
>
>
>Mark Goldes wrote:
>
> > Ed,
> >
> > I, for one, much appreciate your attempt to clear the air in this 
>manner.
> >
> > Minor point:  To my knowledge, thermoelectric devices are heat engines 
>that
> > are indeed Carnot limited.
>
>Mark, according to my understanding of the Carnot cycle, it applies to
>conditions where work is done through a difference in temperature and it 
>was
>derived using changes in gas pressure.  A thermoelectric device does no 
>work in
>this manner.  The question is, do electrons act like atoms, i.e. do they 
>have a
>pressure that changes with temperature thereby allowing application of the 
>same
>logic?  I suggest the same logic can not be applied.
>
>I agree, thermoelectric devices have a built in inefficiency because energy
>must pass through them while they generate an electron current.  The issue 
>is
>whether this inefficiency has any relationship to the Carnot limit. I 
>suggest
>people use the Carnot limit in this application to make the efficiencies 
>look
>better when they are compared to other methods that use Carnot properly.
>
>Ed
>
> > However, recent developments in both
> > thermoelectric and thermionic conversion suggest that performance is 
>sharply
> > improving.  Efficiencies in thermoelectrics, as I recall, are 
>percentages of
> > Carnot efficiency.
> >
> > For examples of interesting improvements in thermoelectrics, see the 
>work of
> > HIGH-Z.
> >
> > For those in thermionics see Borealis and ENECO's claims.
> >
> > Superconductors are known to improve the efficiencies of thermoelectric
> > devices when they are used to replace the leg having the lower Figure of
> > Merit.  This is usually the N leg.
> >
> > Our Ultraconductors were tested for this effect on a DOD contract and
> > performed as well as cryogenic superconductors.  We were invited to 
>apply
> > for a Phase II Contract, and declined, as it appears private funding 
>will
> > become available for this purpose in the future without the limitations
> > regarding patent rights that federal contracts involve.
> >
> > Funding for all our work has been delayed, partly by economic 
>conditions,
> > and partly as the result of a seven figure investment, due to close at 
>the
> > end of September, by a group located in a building across from the World
> > Trade Center, coming to an abrupt halt on 9/11.
> >
> > Mark Goldes, CEO
> > Magnetic Power Inc.
> > Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.
> >
> > >From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
> > >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:59:54 -0600
> > >
> > >Dear Jones and Jed,
> > >I hate to get involved in another person's cat fight, but some
> > >misunderstanding
> > >needs to be clear up.
> > >
> > >Jones Beene wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> > > >
> > > > > >CF can produce a lot of excess low grade heat at times. That is 
>about
> > >the
> > > > > >best that can be said for it in 2002.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is incorrect. CF can easily produce high-grade heat.
> > > >
> > > > You lost this argument badly once before. Electrolytic CF cannot by
> > >nature
> > > > produce high-grade heat. Plasma CF might, but that is technically 
>not
> > >CF.
> > >
> > >Perhaps the electrolytic method can not make high grade heat in the
> > >conventional
> > >sense, but the Case method seems to produce heat as high as 250°C.  
>This
> > >temperature is well into the range where thermoelectric conversion 
>would be
> > >practical.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > There is good evidence it works better at high temperatures.
> > > >
> > > > That assumes that CF is a thermal process which, of course it is not 
>at
> > >all.
> > >
> > >No, it does not assume CF is a thermal process.  The observation is 
>that
> > >the
> > >nuclear-active-environment within the Pd lattice becomes more stable as
> > >temperature
> > >is increased up to some limit.  Consequently, more of the environment
> > >necessary to
> > >trigger a nuclear reaction becomes available, hence more reaction.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > There is also good evidence that electrolytic CF it works better at
> > >moderate
> > > > temperature and high pressure
> > >
> > >I know of no evidence supporting this assertion.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Pons and Fleischmann achieved their best results with a boiling 
>cell.
> > >Most
> > > > experiments are kept  at low temperatures, below boiling, but this 
>is
> > >only to
> > > > simplify the  apparatus.
> > > >
> > > > No, it is just as likely because good results can be had a lower
> > >temperature.
> > > > Boiling cells do not produce high grade heat anyway. High grade heat 
>is
> > >heat
> > > > that can produce thermionization, usually in excess of 1500 degree
> > >Fahrenheit.
> > >
> > >Granted, the higher the temperature, the more efficient are normal
> > >conversion
> > >methods.  However, thermoelectric methods do not suffer the Carnot 
>problem,
> > >hence
> > >can be used at lower temperatures with good efficiency.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >And furthermore, energy conversion of heat into electricity has
> > >always
> > > > > >loomed as a problem issue, that is - should the technology ever
> > >become
> > > > > >robust enough to be labeled as "CF on-demand."
> > > >
> > > > > I do not think it would be an issue. If CF can be tamed at all, 
>and
> > >made to
> > > > > work without exploding or guttering out, I'm sure the input to 
>output
> > >ratio
> > > > > can be boosted to any convenient number, far above levels needed 
>to
> > >convert
> > > > > heat into electricity efficiently.
> > > >
> > > > This is an absurd statement, obviously stated by a wishful thinker 
>who
> > >has never
> > > > done experimental energy conversion work and has nothing more than a
> > >cursory
> > > > understanding of the variables of direct thermal to electric energy
> > >conversion.
> > >
> > >Any CF device for the home would use both waste heat and electricity, 
>hence
> > >nothing
> > >would be wasted.  Conversion efficiency using thermoelectrics is moving
> > >upward.
> > >This efficiency would control just how big the CF cell would have to be 
>in
> > >order to
> > >satisfy the electric needs.   The question is whether CF can be made
> > >sufficiently
> > >over unity to allow the CF system to be small and cheap enough for a 
>normal
> > >home.
> > >This question has not yet been answered and will not be answered until
> > >years of
> > >serious study have been invested.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Many CF devices produce output with zero input energy once the 
>cathode
> > >loads.
> > > >
> > > > That factor, which is a temporary phenomenon, doesn't effect ouptut
> > >energy
> > > > conversion itself and would be available, if true, to any higher
> > >efficiency
> > > > conversion scheme
> > > >
> > > > > Heat after death is interesting from
> > > > > a scientific point of view, but for technology, it would be better 
>if
> > >the
> > > > > CF heat stops immediately after the input power terminates. I hope
> > >this can
> > > > > be arranged!
> > > >
> > > > Heat after death is part and parcel of CF. If you understood the
> > >situation
> > > > better you would also understand why it cannot be eliminated.
> > >
> > >No, heat after death is rare.  I, for one, have never seen it occur.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >Thermoelectric and steam conversion are options but not great
> > >options, due
> > > > > >to inefficiency and/or complexity and heat rejection issues . . .
> > > >
> > > > > Steam requires moving parts, which are expensive, noisy and will 
>wear
> > >out.
> > > > > Thermoelectric conversion has been very inefficient until now, but
> > >recent
> > > > > breakthroughs may make it an attractive option. Efficiency will 
>make
> > >no
> > > > > cost difference -- fuel cost will be so small even 1% efficiency 
>would
> > >be
> > > > > okay -- but heat rejection is a problem. Homeowners do not want a
> > >great
> > > > > bulky hot, noisy generator in the yard or basement.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You could not be more incorrect!!! If you include in "fuel cost" the
> > >cost of Pd,
> > > > which you must include sometwhere and Pd diminishment over time from
> > >gunking and
> > > > all the other forms of depletion, then "fuel cost" can be rather 
>high in
> > > > propotion to energy ouput. The CF cell most resembles in current
> > >consumer
> > > > products, a Pb-acid battery which lasts on average about 60 months 
>at
> > >low
> > > > temperature. At even moderate tempertures, a CF cell would probably 
>need
> > >to
> > > > recycle its total Pd inventory once or twice a year, maybe more. It 
>will
> > >likely
> > > > never, therefore, be a good option for home use, but perhaps for
> > >neighborhood
> > > > use tended to by a professional..
> > >
> > >Unfortunately, the lifetime of Pd in a CF environment is not known.
> > >Consequently,
> > >any assertion on either side of the issue is based on pure speculation.
> > >Fortunately, many other cheaper materials are apparently nuclear-active 
>so
> > >that the
> > >expense of the nuclear-active-environment may not be a major issue.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > >- however, high efficiency conversion may be as simple as adding 
>on
> > >the
> > > > > >closed-cycle fuel cell, or CCFC.
> > > > >
> > > > > The ratio of CF power to potential chemical energy in free 
>hydrogen
> > >will be
> > > > > so large that it will not be economical to use a fuel cell.
> > > >
> > > > In your dreams perhaps, but not in the real world where Pd depletion 
>and
> > > > maintenance costs are variable with output and likely to be very
> > >substantial.
> > > > High efficiency direct conversion will be of upmost importance
> > >
> > >The beauty of CF is that the basic fuel, D2, is so cheap compared to 
>its
> > >energy
> > >content.  This is not true of H2 used in a fuel cell.
> > >
> > >Ed
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
>




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 07:03:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA19898;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:02:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:02:43 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:54:57 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <001b01c1c067$e3fc1ec0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227183954.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20020227215041.007abb90 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ekifV2.0.Ys4.IQaVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46352
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>

> Sometimes yes, sometimes no, usually they do not measure it.

Yes, usually they don't measure it but do you have knowledge of any experiment
where Pd cathodes were carefully analyzed after a sucessful run that showed no
transmutation? That could be a very key point.

Some time ago, I did a web search and "Britz search" on this point and found no
report of null results when actual spectrographic measurement was performed.
This is one of the few times in CF research that all the reports seem to be in
agreement except for one big problem. Experimenters don't like to publish null
results and most of the time when you go to the trouble and expense of a mass
spectrograph, your expectations is to find something.

> But if Ni, U some other cheap metal works the whole issue vanishes.

Yes, it's too bad that the early work using U cathodes wasn't pursued,
especially since there was some early success, especially in Japan.

In firming up some details on my suggestion yesterday for a compound CF/CFCC
using an internal source of irradiation, I have found several older Japanese
references in respected journals outside of the normal cold fusion circuit where
U was deposited over ceramic cathodes for the express purpose of producing
transmutation. When one finds a flurry of extraordinary reports coming from one
sector of a new technology and then they suddenly cease, one is led to wonder
whether the results were shown to be not valid or instead whether in some few
cases the work was just taken out of the public domain because it was just too
promising to give away.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 07:23:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01061;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:23:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:23:33 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7E3EA0.2AA93D9F ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:28:50 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: J-M, Pd, catalytic converters . . .
References: <3.0.6.32.20020228002312.00798a00 pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1eyl41.0.QG.rjaVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46354
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I read various documents this afternoon about catalytic converters and Pd.
> Naturally, the name Johnson-Matthey came up often. They are the world's
> biggest supplier of Pd I believe. Just now I got to thinking . . .
>
> Over the years, it seems to me J-M has been distinctly unfriendly toward
> CF. Also uninterested and uncooperative. They once made material that works
> 100% of the time. I am sure they could make it again, but whenever I
> enquired, they said we would have to jump through hoops and pay tens of
> thousands to buy some. I used to wonder why a company would sit on a
> technology worth trillions when they control the market for the main
> component. Suddenly, it hit me. They are not fools. Someone in J-M is
> probably following developments in this field. They must know that other
> metals, such as Ni, are promising, and that Pd will probably not be the
> metal of choice in a commercial CF reactor. And what would happen to their
> biggest market for Pd if CF succeeds? It would vanish. There would be no
> need for catalytic converters. Not only would 40% of the demand for Pd
> disappear, remaining stocks and production would more than meet remaining
> demand, so the price would crash. They would lose a lot more than 40% of
> their income.
>
> Of course I have no proof of this, and we will probably never know, but it
> is the only logical explanation for their behavior.

Well, Jed, that is the more charitable view.  The other is that they could
care less about CF and are thinking only about how they can make as much money
as possible at the present time, including charging CF the going rate for
palladium.  Even if what you say is true, any threat to their bottom line
would be decades in the future.  By then special alloys will probably be
needed for CF, which J-M could supply at a significant profit.  Also by then,
other uses will probably be found for Pd and Pt.  So, I doubt they are
worried.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 07:25:28 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00444;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:22:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:22:56 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:15:15 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <002501c1c06a$b9b07460$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <F30TMZcFMGLT3POyllz00001e76 hotmail.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Nc0S92.0.o6.FjaVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46353
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>

Hi Mark,

> For examples of interesting improvements in thermoelectrics, see the work of
> HIGH-Z.

This must be in regard to thermoelectric cooling? Is HIGH-Z a company name or is
it a reference to high-z elements?

> For those in thermionics see Borealis and ENECO's claims.

The "Thermal diodes" are new and exciting claims but ENECO doesn't have a very
good track record of taking things from the lab to the factory floor, and
whether or not the tech can be applicable to CF is not clear.

When you try to pin down what has actually been done, and what is "informed
speculation" it appears that most of their claims are based upon "projections"
from a sinlge DARPA research project, just completed, which did not use low
grade heat.

If they are correct however, you can toss CF and everything else out the window
because solar conversion will be so economical that little else will matter for
fixed site generation and auto engines will be downsized by 300% making
conversion over to another infastructure all the more difficult.

> Superconductors are known to improve the efficiencies of thermoelectric
> devices when they are used to replace the leg having the lower Figure of
> Merit.  This is usually the N leg.

This is thermoelectric cooling, no? Or does it apply to thermoelectric direct
heat-to electricty?

> Our Ultraconductors were tested for this effect on a DOD contract and
> performed as well as cryogenic superconductors.  We were invited to apply
> for a Phase II Contract, and declined, as it appears private funding will
> become available for this purpose in the future without the limitations
> regarding patent rights that federal contracts involve.

This is fantastic! Looks like you are well on your way. Congratulations.

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 08:15:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28941;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:12:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:12:55 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228110110.00aebb18 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:13:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
In-Reply-To: <001b01c1c067$e3fc1ec0$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227183954.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20020227215041.007abb90 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"MS22z2.0.747.6SbVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46355
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

>Yes, usually they don't measure it but do you have knowledge of any 
>experiment where Pd cathodes were carefully analyzed after a sucessful run 
>that showed no transmutation? That could be a very key point.

Honestly, I can't say I know of any. I think I saw some rather sloppy 
presentations & posters at ICCF conferences showing no significant 
transmutations, but I did not put much stock in them.

I suppose Takahashi and others suspect the level of transmutation might be 
variable -- and controllable -- because the amount of damage 
(transmutation) does not seem to correlate well with heat production, and 
the products are scattered all over the periodic table, although they do 
fit a pattern. But it is very difficult to extrapolate from the moderate 
levels of energy and minute transmutation that have been observed. If we 
had giant CF reactors producing gigajoules of heat, the changes in the 
cathode material would be easier to see and quantify.


>In firming up some details on my suggestion yesterday for a compound 
>CF/CFCC using an internal source of irradiation, I have found several 
>older Japanese references in respected journals outside of the normal cold 
>fusion circuit where U was deposited over ceramic cathodes for the express 
>purpose of producing transmutation.

That is what the people are Mitsubishi are doing, even as we speak (type).


>When one finds a flurry of extraordinary reports coming from one
>sector of a new technology and then they suddenly cease, one is led to 
>wonder whether the results were shown to be not valid or instead whether 
>in some few cases the work was just taken out of the public domain because 
>it was just too promising to give away.

The Mitsubishi work has been described in the public domain, but it may be 
that detailed information is not freely available, and I doubt they would 
hand out sample cathodes on demand. I expect you could get one if you work 
at a prestigious university or corporation. they have sent their used 
cathodes to several different corporations in Europe and Japan for 
post-experiment analysis.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 09:07:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21579;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:05:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:05:18 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228115516.03f8edc8 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:05:32 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: J-M Pd filter and fuel cell FAQ
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"azE472.0._G5.DDcVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46356
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Interesting info. See:

http://www.hydrogentechnology.com/html/faq.html

Filters last 3 - 5 years, getter beds about a year. Cracking is the most 
common failure with filters.

Fuel processor conditions such as temperature and wear and tear are 
probably similar to CF.

The cost is moderate because material is recycled:

"IS OWNING A JOHNSON MATTHEY PALLADIUM MEMBRANE HYDROGEN PURIFIER COST 
EFFECTIVE?

Yes because it is not consumed during operation which results in a low cost 
of ownership."


Here's a thought. Palladium would be may be required in a fuel cell 
economy. Widespread use of fuel cell automobiles and home generators might 
increase the demand for palladium almost as much as CF would. Is there 
enough Pd for a fuel cells automobile fleet?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 09:41:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08893;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:38:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:38:35 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.151]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Heat to Electric conversion
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:38:01 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F23FT3kMUVfNIJWNDIT000001cf hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2002 17:38:01.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB5744C0:01C1C07E]
Resent-Message-ID: <"aPue3.0.rA2.QicVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46357
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jones,

High-Z (or Hi-Z) I've forgotten which it is...is a company.  They have a web 
site.  Sorry, I don't have the URL.  They may not be making noise about the 
very high efficiencies they are achieving with new, thin film, materials.

I share your concerns about ENECO.  But see Borealis.  They have a website 
and again I do not have the URL handy.  They are a small, public, company in 
Oregon and Canada.  There is extensive information about their Thermionic 
work on the site.

The path to commercialization is always full of surprises -- it is much too 
early to assume any of these systems will emerge in a manner that eliminates 
competition.  Hi-Z, (I think that's the correct spelling) is paying close 
attention to the Miley work.

The efficiency increase due to superconductors replacing one leg of a 
thermoelectric device is almost certain to be a reversible phenomenon.  It 
should apply equally well in the heat-to-electric application.

Off-the-Record, we expect to have our first product employing 
Ultraconductors ready for licensing later this year.  It will be a "Down 
Lead" carrying high current from a room temperature power supply to 
cryogenically cooled superconducting magnets.  A strategic partner has been 
greatly interested, as they presently lose a great deal of heat in copper 
braid used for that purpose.  Their firm makes high quality superconducting 
magnets.  If we are lucky, a second product, conducting adhesives, will 
follow shortly thereafter.

Liquidity has been our only real problem.  On the technical side last year 
was excellent.

Mark
CEO Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.



>From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Hydrogen Generator and synergy
>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:15:15 -0800
>
>From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
>
>Hi Mark,
>
> > For examples of interesting improvements in thermoelectrics, see the 
>work of
> > HIGH-Z.
>
>This must be in regard to thermoelectric cooling? Is HIGH-Z a company name 
>or is
>it a reference to high-z elements?
>
> > For those in thermionics see Borealis and ENECO's claims.
>
>The "Thermal diodes" are new and exciting claims but ENECO doesn't have a 
>very
>good track record of taking things from the lab to the factory floor, and
>whether or not the tech can be applicable to CF is not clear.
>
>When you try to pin down what has actually been done, and what is "informed
>speculation" it appears that most of their claims are based upon 
>"projections"
>from a sinlge DARPA research project, just completed, which did not use low
>grade heat.
>
>If they are correct however, you can toss CF and everything else out the 
>window
>because solar conversion will be so economical that little else will matter 
>for
>fixed site generation and auto engines will be downsized by 300% making
>conversion over to another infastructure all the more difficult.
>
> > Superconductors are known to improve the efficiencies of thermoelectric
> > devices when they are used to replace the leg having the lower Figure of
> > Merit.  This is usually the N leg.
>
>This is thermoelectric cooling, no? Or does it apply to thermoelectric 
>direct
>heat-to electricty?
>
> > Our Ultraconductors were tested for this effect on a DOD contract and
> > performed as well as cryogenic superconductors.  We were invited to 
>apply
> > for a Phase II Contract, and declined, as it appears private funding 
>will
> > become available for this purpose in the future without the limitations
> > regarding patent rights that federal contracts involve.
>
>This is fantastic! Looks like you are well on your way. Congratulations.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jones Beene
>
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 10:25:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04338;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:23:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:23:01 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:15:18 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Heat to Electric conversion
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <009b01c1c083$e150c420$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <F23FT3kMUVfNIJWNDIT000001cf hotmail.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"JwYWH2.0.a31.5MdVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46358
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mark,

Thanks for the input. It is a real treat for us to have insightful comment from
the visionary behind a cutting edge company that could turn out to be, IMHO, the
"next big thing." Don't forget us when you start hobnobbing with the Gates &
Ellison set  ;-)

BTW  Is there the remotest chance that smallish Ultraconductor electromagnets
will be available in the near future, especially in a price range that is in
keeping with the budgets of the "alternative energy" crowd? (off the record, of
course)

Regards,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 13:00:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26982;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:57:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:57:08 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7E8CBE.574B3B2E ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:02:46 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227183954.00afeb88 pop.mindspring.com>
		 <3.0.6.32.20020227215041.007abb90 pop.mindspring.com> <001b01c1c067$e3fc1ec0$8837fea9@computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y3gb_3.0.Pb6.YcfVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46359
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>
> > Sometimes yes, sometimes no, usually they do not measure it.
>
> Yes, usually they don't measure it but do you have knowledge of any experiment
> where Pd cathodes were carefully analyzed after a sucessful run that showed no
> transmutation? That could be a very key point.
>
> Some time ago, I did a web search and "Britz search" on this point and found no
> report of null results when actual spectrographic measurement was performed.
> This is one of the few times in CF research that all the reports seem to be in
> agreement except for one big problem. Experimenters don't like to publish null
> results and most of the time when you go to the trouble and expense of a mass
> spectrograph, your expectations is to find something.

This being true, I would think scientists would be
interested to know why this is
true, regardless of its relationship to an application.

>
>
> > But if Ni, U some other cheap metal works the whole issue vanishes.
>
> Yes, it's too bad that the early work using U cathodes wasn't pursued,
> especially since there was some early success, especially in Japan.
>
> In firming up some details on my suggestion yesterday for a compound CF/CFCC
> using an internal source of irradiation, I have found several older Japanese
> references in respected journals outside of the normal cold fusion circuit where
> U was deposited over ceramic cathodes for the express purpose of producing
> transmutation. When one finds a flurry of extraordinary reports coming from one
> sector of a new technology and then they suddenly cease, one is led to wonder
> whether the results were shown to be not valid or instead whether in some few
> cases the work was just taken out of the public domain because it was just too
> promising to give away.

I suggest the lack of publications exploring the use of U in
a P-F cell is because
U is unstable in a P-F cell.  While at LANL. we tried U and
found that it was
converted to U3O8 which deposited on the anode. 
Furthermore, when U hydrides, it
turns to powder. If U is used, it needs to be kept out of
contact with the
electrolyte, not an easy challenge.   Once again, the
chemistry of the material is
ignored while only the physics of the problem is considered.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 13:07:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28090;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:58:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:58:43 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228154603.0598ee20 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:59:05 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Has anyone tried CF with a catalytic converter?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228115516.03f8edc8 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"yuQxc1.0.os6.2efVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46360
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote:

>Fuel processor conditions such as temperature and wear and tear are 
>probably similar to CF.

Actually, come to think of it, catalytic converter (CC) conditions are 
probably somewhat similar to CF. A CC survives for years in challenging, 
high-temperature conditions. A CC is usually a porous cylinder shape, with 
very high surface area, made of ceramic with a thin film of Pd or Pt.

It sounds like an ideal device to test gas loaded CF: pure, clean, uniform 
thin film, tremendous surface area . . . I wonder if anyone has tested a CC 
in deuterium gas?

Would the guts of a CC fit into a cell small enough for a typical 
calorimeter? If someone can locate the exact dimensions of one of these 
things, please let me know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 13:53:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25502;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:50:26 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:50:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Heat to Electric conversion
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:49:48 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <f59t7uo12sk572443m6queeg7j1q49hj7f 4ax.com>
References: <F23FT3kMUVfNIJWNDIT000001cf hotmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <F23FT3kMUVfNIJWNDIT000001cf hotmail.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA25485
Resent-Message-ID: <"dY3eC3.0.OE6.WOgVy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46361
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Mark Goldes's message of Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:38:01 -0800:
Hi,
>Hi Jones,
>
>High-Z (or Hi-Z) I've forgotten which it is...is a company.  They have a web 
>site.  Sorry, I don't have the URL.  They may not be making noise about the 

http://www.hi-z.com/ ?
[snip]


>very high efficiencies they are achieving with new, thin film, materials.
>
>I share your concerns about ENECO.  But see Borealis.  They have a website 
>and again I do not have the URL handy.  They are a small, public, company in

http://www.borealis.com/index.shtml
 
>Oregon and Canada.  

I believe they have moved at least their registration to Malta.

>There is extensive information about their Thermionic 
>work on the site.
>
>The path to commercialization is always full of surprises -- it is much too 
>early to assume any of these systems will emerge in a manner that eliminates 
>competition.  Hi-Z, (I think that's the correct spelling) is paying close 
>attention to the Miley work.
>
>The efficiency increase due to superconductors replacing one leg of a 
>thermoelectric device is almost certain to be a reversible phenomenon.  It 
>should apply equally well in the heat-to-electric application.

Doesn't this present difficulties with a superconductor getting too hot,
and going above Tc? (less of a problem for you of course ;)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 14:08:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00763;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:03:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:03:13 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:55:19 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Has anyone tried CF with a catalytic converter?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <010d01c1c0a2$9dbb0940$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228154603.0598ee20 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"7Dvj13.0.gB.UagVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46362
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>

> It sounds like an ideal device to test gas loaded CF: pure, clean, uniform
> thin film, tremendous surface area . . . I wonder if anyone has tested a CC
> in deuterium gas?

That is a terrific idea! An old CC should have plenty of carbon build up so it
would be somewhat similar to a Case cell ...

Isn't McKubre now claiming that 2 out of 3 Case-type cells he is testing are OU?
He might even be interested in the idea...unless he's switched to something
else.

> Would the guts of a CC fit into a cell small enough for a typical
> calorimeter? If someone can locate the exact dimensions of one of these
> things, please let me know.

The smallest one I know of is from a Volvo turbo and that's because it has two,
the smaller one is probably less than 10"x 6" and is right on the turbocharger
outlet - but probably other makes have this kind of set-up too.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 14:36:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28683;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:31:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:31:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.160]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Heat to Electric conversion
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:30:45 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F44aJZqQ4V7msx0WkDc00002339 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2002 22:30:45.0848 (UTC) FILETIME=[9070FD80:01C1C0A7]
Resent-Message-ID: <"2datW1.0.107.u-gVy" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46363
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Robin,

Thanks for posting the URLs.

Yes, the heat-to-electric work cannot use existing superconductors due to 
the heat.  Our materials can be utilized up to 200 C.  They continue to 
superconduct to 700 K, which is about 430 C -- at which point the best of 
the polymers disintegrate.  Above 200 C they are too soft to be useful.

Mark


>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Heat to Electric conversion
>Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:49:48 +1100
>
>In reply to  Mark Goldes's message of Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:38:01 -0800:
>Hi,
> >Hi Jones,
> >
> >High-Z (or Hi-Z) I've forgotten which it is...is a company.  They have a 
>web
> >site.  Sorry, I don't have the URL.  They may not be making noise about 
>the
>
>http://www.hi-z.com/ ?
>[snip]
>
>
> >very high efficiencies they are achieving with new, thin film, materials.
> >
> >I share your concerns about ENECO.  But see Borealis.  They have a 
>website
> >and again I do not have the URL handy.  They are a small, public, company 
>in
>
>http://www.borealis.com/index.shtml
>
> >Oregon and Canada.
>
>I believe they have moved at least their registration to Malta.
>
> >There is extensive information about their Thermionic
> >work on the site.
> >
> >The path to commercialization is always full of surprises -- it is much 
>too
> >early to assume any of these systems will emerge in a manner that 
>eliminates
> >competition.  Hi-Z, (I think that's the correct spelling) is paying close
> >attention to the Miley work.
> >
> >The efficiency increase due to superconductors replacing one leg of a
> >thermoelectric device is almost certain to be a reversible phenomenon.  
>It
> >should apply equally well in the heat-to-electric application.
>
>Doesn't this present difficulties with a superconductor getting too hot,
>and going above Tc? (less of a problem for you of course ;)
>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
>....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 14:41:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18171;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:38:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:38:39 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <a2.217d6659.29b00b46 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:37:58 EST
Subject: got the nanopowder
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
Resent-Message-ID: <"3Gizc3.0.gR4.j5hVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46364
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have some zinc oxide nano powder on the way.

I'm builiding a contraption to stimulated it with now.

I'll have pictures and results within a few weeks.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 15:25:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10082;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:22:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:22:44 -0800
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228181223.00b06f68 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:23:06 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone tried CF with a catalytic converter?
In-Reply-To: <010d01c1c0a2$9dbb0940$8837fea9 computer>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228154603.0598ee20 pop.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"9MhOi2.0.PT2.3lhVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46365
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones Beene wrote:

> > It sounds like an ideal device to test gas loaded CF: pure, clean, uniform
> > thin film, tremendous surface area . . . I wonder if anyone has tested a CC
> > in deuterium gas?
>
>That is a terrific idea! An old CC should have plenty of carbon build up 
>so it would be somewhat similar to a Case cell ...

Why would anyone use an OLD catalytic converter?!? That would probably be 
the most filthy, most polluted and unpredictable object you could insert 
into a calorimeter. I had in mind a brand-new catalytic converter core 
fresh from the factory, untouched by human hands or WD40.

On the other hand, perhaps as you say the carbon contributes to the 
reaction. I would definitely start with a new one, though.


>Isn't McKubre now claiming that 2 out of 3 Case-type cells he is testing 
>are OU?

I just asked him if he has heard of anyone trying this.


>The smallest one I know of is from a Volvo turbo and that's because it has 
>two, the smaller one is probably less than 10"x 6" and is right on the 
>turbocharger outlet - but probably other makes have this kind of set-up too.

That is too large for an ordinary calorimeter. Is that the outside metal 
casing size? I wonder how big the filter inside is. Perhaps you could saw 
off a section of it, although I imagine it is very tough material. Perhaps 
you could smash it with a hammer, and not contaminate it too much. The 4 
grams of Pd in average converter is more than people use in most 
experiments, so a section of it should suffice.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 16:15:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA06957;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:12:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:12:37 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530500b8a476cda027 [12.21.209.4]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:16:07 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
Resent-Message-ID: <"CQH2Y.0.di1.rTiVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46366
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:02 PM 2/28/2, Edmund Storms wrote:

>I suggest the lack of publications exploring the use of U in
>a P-F cell is because
>U is unstable in a P-F cell.  While at LANL. we tried U and
>found that it was
>converted to U3O8 which deposited on the anode.

Stange.  How replicable was this?  Was the amount of U308 readily detectable?


>Furthermore, when U hydrides, it
>turns to powder.

Any idea if uranium hydride is conductive?  Could it be used in electrode beds?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 16:15:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08143;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:14:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:14:53 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:07:07 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Has anyone tried CF with a catalytic converter?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <012101c1c0b5$06c6f400$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020228154603.0598ee20 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020228181223.00b06f68 pop.mindspring.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"onkTV1.0.2_1.yViVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46367
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Why would anyone use an OLD catalytic converter

You wouldn't unless you wanted to go for the Case technique, even then it would
be advisable *not* to use a descarded one, but rather a newer one from a wrecked
car - turbos, especially are wrecked all the time and the CC is somewhat
protected.

> That would probably be
> the most filthy, most polluted and unpredictable object you could insert
> into a calorimeter.

If you don't want to get you hands dirty then stay out of the laboratory!!

> I had in mind a brand-new catalytic converter core
> fresh from the factory, untouched by human hands or WD40.

This would be OK if are going for some kind of gas phase non-Case,
non-electrolytic technique, but you couldn't just put carbon into a new
converter as the pore structure is very tight. And the core is probably not very
condcutive, so forget electrolytic.

A slightly used CC from a newer wreck, however, would not only have the carbon
in there - BUT most importantly it would already be pyrolytically bonded so
there would be far less chance of chemical reduction if you are using D2 gas.

> >The smallest one I know of is from a Volvo turbo and that's because it has
> >two, the smaller one is probably less than 10"x 6" and is right on the
> >turbocharger outlet - but probably other makes have this kind of set-up too.
>
> That is too large for an ordinary calorimeter. Is that the outside metal
> casing size?

It looks like you could cut off a lot of it. Grand auto supply and Kragen have
web sites but I don't know how detailed they get with dimensions...perhaps call
around to motorcycle places - don't they require CCs also?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 16:37:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17454;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:35:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:35:05 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.224]
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ultraconductors
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:34:32 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F141Ty9CMdZpDsiIWeT000012cd hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2002 00:34:32.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[DAEC28B0:01C1C0B8]
Resent-Message-ID: <"D7VfN3.0.UG4.uoiVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46368
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jones,

Kevin, (Dr. Kevin Shambrook), our CTO, likes to say we are $12 million from 
a meter of wire.  That is the sum required to fund the next 3 years of work. 
Consequently, small magnets are unlikely until 2004.

Our focus at the moment is on thick film -- up to 1 mm.  The Ultraconductors 
are normal to the film...i.e. they go through the films in the thin 
dimension.

Wire, he estimates, requires about 25 additional people working in the lab 
full-time, etc.  There are a number of approaches, each of which needs a 
team to follow it out.  However, experiments have proved it is possible.  On 
another DOD contract, we demonstrated that is is also feasible to make tape 
-- that is create Ultraconductors in the plane of the film.

Mark


>From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Heat to Electric conversion
>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:15:18 -0800
>
>Mark,
>
>Thanks for the input. It is a real treat for us to have insightful comment 
>from
>the visionary behind a cutting edge company that could turn out to be, 
>IMHO, the
>"next big thing." Don't forget us when you start hobnobbing with the Gates 
>&
>Ellison set  ;-)
>
>BTW  Is there the remotest chance that smallish Ultraconductor 
>electromagnets
>will be available in the near future, especially in a price range that is 
>in
>keeping with the budgets of the "alternative energy" crowd? (off the 
>record, of
>course)
>
>Regards,
>
>Jones
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 16:50:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23340;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:49:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:49:38 -0800
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:41:51 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <013f01c1c0b9$e1534ca0$8837fea9 computer>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <v01530500b8a476cda027 [12.21.209.4]>
Resent-Message-ID: <"vrQU12.0.bi5.Y0jVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46369
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Edmund Storms wrote:

> I suggest the lack of publications exploring the use of U in a P-F cell is
because U is unstable in a P-F cell.  While at LANL. we tried U and found that
it was converted to U3O8 which deposited on the anode.

I only read the abstracts from the older Japanese work which was gas phase and
was also polarized electrically if I am not mistaken.

>Furthermore, when U hydrides, it turns to powder. If U is used, it needs to be
kept out of contact with the electrolyte, not an easy challenge.   Once again,
the
chemistry of the material is ignored while only the physics of the problem is
considered

The problem of preventing hydriding was solved in the1960s with the NERVA and
KIWI rocket development programs. KIWI used Uranium Carbide fuel so to avoid
oxidation or reduction, the fuel particles were coated with a few microns of
pyrolytic carbon. Pyrolytic carbon excludes water and almost everything else.
Later nuclear powered rockets used metal alloys of U with W for reasons of
thermal conductivity but any number of metal alloys of U will prevent hydriding.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 21:32:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21725;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:30:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:30:07 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7F050B.2C48170 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:36:58 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
References: <v01530500b8a476cda027 [12.21.209.4]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"22o8Y2.0.NJ5.U7nVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46370
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 2:02 PM 2/28/2, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >I suggest the lack of publications exploring the use of U in
> >a P-F cell is because
> >U is unstable in a P-F cell.  While at LANL. we tried U and
> >found that it was
> >converted to U3O8 which deposited on the anode.
>
> Stange.  How replicable was this?  Was the amount of U308 readily detectable?

Clearly obvious - the anode turned yellow.

>
>
> >Furthermore, when U hydrides, it
> >turns to powder.
>
> Any idea if uranium hydride is conductive?  Could it be used in electrode beds?

Yes, UH3 is conductive but very reactive to water and air.

Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 28 21:45:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28624;
	Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:45:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:45:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3C7F0892.E42EB378 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:52:03 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Info. on Pd in catalytic converters
References: <v01530500b8a476cda027 [12.21.209.4]> <013f01c1c0b9$e1534ca0$8837fea9@computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2eyzY3.0.A_6.aLnVy" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/46371
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jones Beene wrote:

> >Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > I suggest the lack of publications exploring the use of U in a P-F cell is
> because U is unstable in a P-F cell.  While at LANL. we tried U and found that
> it was converted to U3O8 which deposited on the anode.
>
> I only read the abstracts from the older Japanese work which was gas phase and
> was also polarized electrically if I am not mistaken.
>
> >Furthermore, when U hydrides, it turns to powder. If U is used, it needs to be
> kept out of contact with the electrolyte, not an easy challenge.   Once again,
> the
> chemistry of the material is ignored while only the physics of the problem is
> considered
>
> The problem of preventing hydriding was solved in the1960s with the NERVA and
> KIWI rocket development programs. KIWI used Uranium Carbide fuel so to avoid
> oxidation or reduction, the fuel particles were coated with a few microns of
> pyrolytic carbon. Pyrolytic carbon excludes water and almost everything else.
> Later nuclear powered rockets used metal alloys of U with W for reasons of
> thermal conductivity but any number of metal alloys of U will prevent hydriding.

I worked on the ROVER program at LANL and can give you some facts.  The fuel
consisted of UC2 impregnated into graphite and these fuel rods were coated with
NbC.  The early use of pyrolytic carbon was found not to work.  The U-W alloy was
proposed, but never tested because the solubility of U in W is low, the fuel is
very heavy, and W has poor neutron characteristics.

The issue here is to use uranium in a CF environment, not in H2 at 2000°.  None of
the configurations used in the ROVER engine have any bearing on the subject.

Ed