From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  1 05:43:36 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
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Matthew Rogers wrote:

>This seems to be an accurate portrayal of the technology needed to make 
>things safe, and not insane.

I think it is insane, and it can never be made safe, for two reasons:

1. Putting hundreds of small uranium fission reactors in the U.S. and other 
countries would be an open invitation to terrorists. They would attack one 
or use the uranium for a "dirty bomb."

2. There is no safe or cost effective means to dispose of used fuel rods. 
Shipping large numbers to a repository would also be an open invitation to 
terrorists. Ed Storms praises the French and Canadian reactor programs, but 
France and Canada have no disposal programs. Last I heard, they were hoping 
Russia or the U.S. would fix their problem. France tried to recycle but the 
program collapsed.

Any scheme that produces extremely toxic long lived garbage is a bad 
scheme, in my opinion.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Re: FWD:  "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the
US want total control of middle eastern oil supplies.

Michael Randall wrote:

The cartoon map came out a couple of weeks after Sept. 11, 2001.
http://www.webpost.net/do/Don/MiddleEastMap.jpg

Hi Robin and Michael,

On the cartoon map, "toast" should read "Unocal".
Some sources say that Kazakhstan has 40 billion barrels
in known oil reserves, as compared with 10 billion remaining
in Saudi Arabia; and the only practical way to get it
to the West is a pipeline across Afghanistan.

In 2-02, prompted by a calculation by Jed, I wrote

Anyway, I agree with you that the principal source
of terrorist funding is oil money; so I'm making
the following proposal:

"Why are we pouring billions of dollars into the pockets
of those who may be funding the Osama bin Ladens of the world?

The United States should switch from gasoline to
methanol (also known as methyl alcohol or wood
alcohol) for its liquid fuel.

Methanol can be made by well-known processes from methane
(natural gas) and coal.  Why should we put money for oil
into the hands of assassins while the United States has large
reserves of methane and coal?

For clarification: methanol is not used in gas-o-hol,
which is burned in engines that are designed to use
gasoline.  Gas-o-hol is made by mixing gasoline with ethanol
(also know as ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol).

It would be difficult to use gasoline in engines that are
designed to burn methanol since, at least, the valves and
fuel injection would have to be changed.  We should invest
in this retooling to break free from our dependence on oil.

If the United States switches from gasoline to methanol,
those wishing to sell automobiles in the US market would
have to make them able to use methanol.  Given the size
of the American market, it is likely that most of the
world would adopt methanol as the liquid fuel.

This would be a severe financial blow to those who are
using oil dollars in an attempt to enslave or exterminate us."

While I have great hopes for cold fusion, we can do the
methanol solution now -- later, hopefully, energized by CF.

Previously, regarding the supply of methane, I  wrote:

Some maintain that "fossil" fuels are primarily of
inorganic origin, and that they are continuously
produced deep within the Earth starting with methane.

hamdi ucar wrote:

... methane would be primordial according your hypothesis, ...

I also wrote:

There is a slight chance that some of the methane is primordial;
but the likely players are hydrogen and silicon carbide,
See "Hydrogen as the Driver of Global Tectonics" by C. Warren Hunt,
"Infinite Energy", Vol. 6, #32.  (It is possible that much of the
hydrogen is not primordial to the Earth, but is the result of 
continuous capture of comets and other celestial material.)

In his article, Warren Hunt (p. 60) writes "New data from a drill hole
at Fort McMurray ... H2, CH4, and CO2 were found to evolve
continuously from the shield granite as it was pulverized by drilling 

...  hydrogen reacting with SiC produces SiH4 and CH4 ...

Silanes oxidize in the presence of the first water they encounter,
releasing their energy and silicon as volcanic effusives or passively
by creating granites ...  Hydrocarbons, mainly methane, migrating 
with the silanes, are less reactive and accumulate where barriers
obstruct their upward progress, thus generating deposits of natural
gas, petroleum, and coal ..."

If we do not abandon oil as the basis for liquid fuel in the
US, and instead commit ourselves to defending a pipeline from
Kazakhstan across Afghanistan to Karachi in Pakistan,
we will find ourselves in a horrible war of attrition similar
to that which defeated the Russians.  The resulting social
disruption in the US will make the effects of VietNam look
like a Sunday school picnic.  Things such as red mecury bombs
could become daily events.  And who will be the "terrorists"?
Would it be the scenario described in "The Handmaid's Tale"?

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  1 07:38:12 2002
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Subject: Meat and oil
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The New York Times magazine has an interesting and depressing article about 
U.S. beef production. It touches on the use of chemical fertilizers, and 
the fact that it takes roughly 0.2 gallons of oil to produce a pound of 
beef. The energy in beef and other meat used to come from solar energy 
(plants) but it is now largely fossil fuel.

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/magazine/31BEEF.html

March 31, 2002
Power Steer
By MICHAEL POLLAN

QUOTES:

Growing the vast quantities of corn used to feed livestock in this country 
takes vast quantities of chemical fertilizer, which in turn takes vast 
quantities of oil -- 1.2 gallons for every bushel. So the modern feedlot is 
really a city floating on a sea of oil. . . .


. . . if you follow the corn from this bunk back to the fields where it 
grows, you will find an 80-million-acre monoculture that consumes more 
chemical herbicide and fertilizer than any other crop. Keep going and you 
can trace the nitrogen runoff from that crop all the way down the 
Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico, where it has created (if that is the 
right word) a 12,000-square-mile ''dead zone.''

But you can go farther still, and follow the fertilizer needed to grow that 
corn all the way to the oil fields of the Persian Gulf. No. 534 started 
life as part of a food chain that derived all its energy from the sun; now 
that corn constitutes such an important link in his food chain, he is the 
product of an industrial system powered by fossil fuel. (And in turn, 
defended by the military -- another uncounted cost of ''cheap'' food.) I 
asked David Pimentel, a Cornell ecologist who specializes in agriculture 
and energy, if it might be possible to calculate precisely how much oil it 
will take to grow my steer to slaughter weight. Assuming [the steer] 
continues to eat 25 pounds of corn a day and reaches a weight of 1,250 
pounds, he will have consumed in his lifetime roughly 284 gallons of oil. 
We have succeeded in industrializing the beef calf, transforming what was 
once a solar-powered ruminant into the very last thing we need: another 
fossil-fuel machine. . . .


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  1 10:20:27 2002
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Subject: Re: FWD:  "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
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Dear Thomas,
Yours is a good question that can not be answered based on certain knowledge of
what the government knows.  However, it is possible to answer the question by
simple logic and experience.

1. First of all a HgO+SbO mixed oxide is not an unstable compound, hence is not
an explosive, although a few organic compounds of mercury are explosives.  For
a compound to be an explosive, it must decompose rapidly and produce a large
amount of gas.  This kind of behavior is impossible with this compound.

2.  If this compound were able to initiate a fusion reaction, then we would
have very good proof that cold fusion were possible, because that is the only
mechanism able to produce fusion under these conditions.  All experience
obtained so far shows that even when a fusion reaction is initiated using cold
fusion, once the lattice is destroyed, the reaction immediately stops.  So,
even if we assume cold fusion is the mechanism, this mechanism can not produce
a significant explosion.  As is well known, a fusion reaction requires a large
concentration of tritium to be highly compressed and then held in that state
long enough for many atoms to react.  A mixed oxide can not do this job,
because the solubility of D or T in the lattice is very small.  Consequently,
even if the oxide were compressed by an explosive reaction, very little T or D
would be available to react, no matter what the mechanism.

This rumor strikes me as being both nonsense and irresponsible.  More
important, why would such a rumor be started and by whom?

Ed Storms

thomas malloy wrote:

> >FWD:  "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
> >
> >
> >"The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
> >http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/analysis.htm
> >
> >by J.  R.  Nyquist
> >
> >March 26, 2002
> >
> >On Thursday, March 21, WorldNetDaily posted an article from STRATFOR, a
> >well-connected private intelligence firm. The title of the article was
> >"Crisis looming between U.S., Russia."
> >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID= 26920 STRATFOR's
> >article deals with CIA Director George Tenet's March 19 testimony before
> >the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee. According to Tenet, Russia is
> >hardly a reliable partner in the "war against terror." Instead, Russia is
> >"the first choice of proliferant states seeking the most advanced
> >technology and training," said Tenet.
> >
> >What the CIA director could not say, and perhaps what makes President
> >George W. Bush so desperately eager to wipe out the regime of Saddam
> >Hussein, is that Russia may have given red mercury fusion technology to
> >Saddam. According to one of my sources, Iraq possesses "s- megaton"
> >micro-nuclear warheads. These are softball-sized two-megaton fusion bombs
> >triggered by an irradiated and compressed compound of mercury antimony
> >oxide. This device doubles the nuclear yield with a hundredfold reduction
> >of weight. Using heavy hydrogen instead of uranium or plutonium to fuel its
> >explosive reaction, this hand- held nuclear weapon cannot be detected by
> >U.S. sensors.
>
> Does anybody know if this is B S? I've never heard of Hg and antimony
> doing something like this.
>
> >
>
> --

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  1 10:29:28 2002
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Thomas - I agree , Its usually all talk and "Buy my Book" but eventually
something will break - Keep the faith:-)

What about Tom Beardens MEG unit ?
Will this fly or will it become involved in "Drag down" discussion and
litagation between various parties who seek to keep it from being
commercialsed ? Its great news though that they got the patent.
Did Naudin get a over 1 COP ? Has the unit stood "Alone " yet?

Rgds
Noel Whitney
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: My conversation with Alexander Frolov


> As you know Alexander is the director of Faraday.ru . I visited their
> website and read the synopsis of last year's articles. I noted with
> interest that among them were reports of a replication of J R
> Searle's machine and an article by Olag Griskavitch about his
> generator. Both of these machines are of interest to me because they
> would be scalable to what ever size. I wrote Alexander a letter
> inquiring about the availability of machines. One would assume that a
> poor country would be itching to export finished machines. In his
> reply he basically ignored my suggestion that we could both profit if
> he could arrange for me to import machines. He attempted to sell me a
> copy of his book of course. We have this science fiction book story
> in this town, it's called Uncle Hugo's. It's just so difficult to
> find someone with a working machine for sale.
> --
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  1 13:06:16 2002
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Subject: [Fwd: ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting - Albuquerque, NM -Oct 
 12-15 - Call for Papers]
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting - Albuquerque, NM -Oct
         12-15 - Call for Papers
   Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:49 -0700
   From: ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting
         <dporterfield lanl.gov>
     To: dporterfield lanl.gov



Dear American Chemical Society Member:

The Central New Mexico Section of the ACS is pleased to extend an
invitation to attend the 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional meeting in
Albuquerque, NM, on October 12-15, 2002, at the Hyatt Regency.  The Call
for Papers is available at the link below and includes general sessions
and topical symposia that should be of importance to you.  These topical
symposia include Bioinformatics, Chemical Technicians, Drug Discovery,
Education, Energy, Environmental Issues in the Southwest, Materials,
Nanomaterials/Nanosynthesis, Nuclear Chemistry and Technology, Photonic
Materials, and Proteomics Mass Spectroscopy.

                            www.ACS-RM02.org

 The New Mexico Tech Chemistry Club will be organizing a program for
undergraduate/graduate students with the overall theme of "The Light at
the End of the Tunnel ... See Your Future in Chemistry".  Additional
information on this program is available at
http://www.nmt.edu/~chemclub/acs.html.

Our Regional Meeting will be more colorful this year because it overlaps
the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta, October 5-13. Further
information on the Balloon Fiesta is available at http://www.aibf.org/.
This is
Albuquerque's largest tourist event, so meeting attendees will need to
plan early to attend. Consider booking your room at the Hyatt a little
early, because of the attendance expected for this event.

Sincerely,

ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting - Organizing Committee

--------------55DC5FA61808ADAC4396925A
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>-------- Original Message --------
<table BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 >
<tr>
<th ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=BASELINE NOWRAP>Subject:&nbsp;</th>

<td>ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting - Albuquerque, NM -Oct 12-15
- Call for Papers</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<th ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=BASELINE NOWRAP>Date:&nbsp;</th>

<td>Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:49 -0700</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<th ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=BASELINE NOWRAP>From:&nbsp;</th>

<td>ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting &lt;dporterfield lanl.gov></td>
</tr>

<tr>
<th ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=BASELINE NOWRAP>To:&nbsp;</th>

<td>dporterfield lanl.gov</td>
</tr>
</table>

<br>&nbsp;
<p>Dear American Chemical Society Member:
<p>The Central New Mexico Section of the ACS is pleased to extend an invitation
to attend the 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional meeting in Albuquerque, NM,
on October 12-15, 2002, at the Hyatt Regency.&nbsp; The Call for Papers
is available at the link below and includes general sessions and topical
symposia that should be of importance to you.&nbsp; These topical symposia
include Bioinformatics, Chemical Technicians, Drug Discovery, Education,
Energy, Environmental Issues in the Southwest, Materials, Nanomaterials/Nanosynthesis,
Nuclear Chemistry and Technology, Photonic Materials, and Proteomics Mass
Spectroscopy.
<br>&nbsp;
<center><a href="http://www.acs-rm02.org/">www.ACS-RM02.org</a></center>

<br>&nbsp;The New Mexico Tech Chemistry Club will be organizing a program
for undergraduate/graduate students with the overall theme of "The Light
at the End of the Tunnel ... See Your Future in Chemistry".&nbsp; Additional
information on this program is available at
<a href="http://www.nmt.edu/~chemclub/acs.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.nmt.edu/~chemclub/acs.html</a>.
<p>Our Regional Meeting will be more colorful this year because it overlaps
the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta, October 5-13. Further information
on the Balloon Fiesta is available at
<a href="http://www.aibf.org/" eudora="autourl">http://www.aibf.org/</a>.
This is
<br>Albuquerque's largest tourist event, so meeting attendees will need
to plan early to attend. Consider booking your room at the Hyatt a little
early, because of the attendance expected for this event.
<p>Sincerely,
<p>ACS 2002 Rocky Mountain Regional Meeting - Organizing Committee</html>

--------------55DC5FA61808ADAC4396925A--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  1 13:37:38 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Hybrid sports car
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This sounds like an April Fool joke, but it isn't . . . I don't think it 
is, anyway:

http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/29/pf/autos/bc.us.autoshow.introduct.ap/index.htm


- Jed 

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On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 04:34:17PM -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> This sounds like an April Fool joke, but it isn't . . . I don't think it 
> is, anyway:
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/29/pf/autos/bc.us.autoshow.introduct.ap/index.htm

It looks real.  The article is dated 'March 29, 2002:  1:54 PM EST'.

Joe

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Re: FWD:  "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
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At 5:40 AM 4/1/2, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the
>US want total control of middle eastern oil supplies.


It appears that Robin was simply quoting the article:

>>"The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
>>http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/analysis.htm
>>
>>by J.  R.  Nyquist
[snip]
>The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
>total control of middle eastern oil supplies.


In any case, the above statement is so absurd and so noxious that I am
compelled to ignore my general desire to refrain from comment on political
content.

If the US wanted an excuse to invade Afghanistan or any other middle east
oil bearing country, it had the opportunity during the Iranian hostage
situation, shortly after the gulf war, and various times since, including
the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and the bombings of the US
embassies by Bin Laden et al.  In fact, at the end of the conflict with
Iraq, Quwait was already occupied, and Iraq could easily have been next.
Further, the US need not even really "occupy" in the traditional sense, to
get the oil.  If the extermination mentality of the NAZI's prevailed, only
with Islam the target, every major population center in the middle east
could be cleared of people in practically no time at all, days if not
hours.  The US has plenty of nuclear weapons suitable for that.  The rest
would merely be a mop-up.  The US has been careful in the extrmeme to avoid
collateral damage, harming innocent civilians.  If a predatory attitude
were involved, it wouldn't make any difference how many were wiped out.  It
is much easier to target all movement and hot signatures than to identify
targets as civilian vs enemy.  Eliminating the population of a country in a
no prisoners mop-up action in cold weather shouldn't take very long for a
country without scruples.  It is a good thing the US does not engage in
Jihad.  If it did, the population of the world would be a lot smaller.

The real reason for the war is that destroying the World Trade Center and
thousands of civilians was enough to finally get our attention.  We should
have taken more action the first time, but the second time was enough to
force the American people to the action that was long overdue.   Further,
Sadam Hussein has been accused of preparing to make 9/11 look like a small
event.   If that is true, or if he acts in such a manner, it is reasonable
to expect the US people, through their President and military, to not
hesitate to also act accordingly.  I would not like to see the US riled up
into a nationalistic frenzy,  especially near an election year, but it is
possible that it could be done, and if it happens I would not expect those
who did the riling or their kin or allies to have much of a life
expectancy.  Their elimination might be just as wrong as their killing our
civilians by the thousands, but it still could happen.   Oil is a
completely secondary issue if emotions run high and war fever erupts.  The
war might not last long enough for oil to even be a major issue.

The US citizens want peace and want to be good paying customers.  Too bad
that a small minority of people of Islam can not take our money and ignore
that our media, laws, customs, and even food are completely offensive to
them and their religion.  Too bad they feel the need to kill us, and feel
that they have a right to declare war on civilians.  Here in the US they at
least have a right to express those opinions, and practice their own
religion, but that is meaningless to them.  It is not our typical attitude
of live and let live in the minds of those who have attacked us.

Yes, we want the oil, we need the oil, but we also pay for the oil in the
open market place.  What we won't tolerate is murder of our innocent
population.  Is that so bad?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders
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This hardly qualifies as news, but it does confirm the administration's 
bias in energy policy. That would not be noteworthy, except that the 
administration is trying to cover up this bias. The energy policy 
statements about conservation read like afterthoughts.

- Jed

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/27/business/27ENER.html

QUOTES:

March 27, 2002

Documents Show Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders
By DON VAN NATTA Jr. and NEELA BANERJEE

WASHINGTON, March 26 — As he helped the Bush administration write its 
national energy report last year, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham heard 
from more than 100 energy industry executives, trade association leaders 
and lobbyists, according to documents released by the Energy Department.

Mr. Abraham did not meet with any representatives of environmental 
organizations or consumer groups, the documents show.

In a press release on Monday night, the Energy Department summarized the 
secretary's calendar by saying that Mr. Abraham met with 36 industry 
representatives on task force matters. Most news organizations reported 
that figure today.

But Mr. Abraham actually met with 109 representatives of energy industry 
companies and trade associations, according to a comprehensive review of 
his daily calendar from late January 2001 to May 17, 2001 . . . Many of the 
executives were leaders of corporations that were among the most generous 
financial supporters of President Bush's presidential campaign and the 
Republican Party.


. . . Energy Department officials also pointed out that Mr. Abraham 
occasionally rebuffed energy industry executives. Officials said 23 
requests for meetings from industry leaders were denied. Kenneth L. Lay and 
Jeffrey K. Skilling, the former top executives of the Enron Corporation . . 
. were turned away, officials said. But on March 29, 2001, Mr. Abraham met 
with two other Enron executives, Joe Hartsoe and Linda Robertson.

And Mr. Lay met with Vice President Dick Cheney, who headed the task force, 
on April 17, 2001, to discuss energy policy and the California energy 
crisis. . . .

. . . Gary Skulnik, a Greenpeace spokesman, said yesterday that "a 
low-level staffer called us on March 22, 2001, and gave us 24 hours to 
provide any input we had on energy policy." The organization decided not to 
scramble to meet the tight deadline.

"If they were serious about getting input," Mr. Skulnik said, "that was 
certainly not the way to go about it."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  2 14:06:24 2002
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Subject: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Yes, we want the oil, we need the oil, but we also pay for the oil in the
>open market place.  What we won't tolerate is murder of our innocent
>population. Is that so bad?

That isn't bad. Yet from a global perspective, the oil industry, American 
consumers, the oil company executives, and our national energy policy 
together cause an inadvertent, unplanned holocaust. It is no one's fault, 
but it does contribute to the enmity the terrorists feel toward us. Yes, we 
pay good money for the oil, but we also help to ensure that most of the 
money is stolen by dictators and warlords. We prop them up and give them 
weapons. The U.S. and it allies send $50 million per day to Saddam Hussein 
(for 2 MMBD). Our make-believe "sanctions" play into his hands, giving him 
an excuse to steal even more than he did before the Gulf War. He even 
steals domestically grown food and exports it.

If the Congress had voted to raise the CAFE standards, we could put Hussein 
out of business in few years.

We allow our oil and coal companies to run roughshod over the world, 
killing and impoverishing millions of people with obsolete & dangerous 
technology. People are upset when the tobacco companies do this, but we 
turn a blind eye when oil companies kill on a much larger scale. For 
example, take lighting. One-third of the people in the world use kerosene 
lamps. As I pointed out here earlier, they produce about 1,000 times less 
light than electric lights per joule of energy. They are filthy and 
dangerous. This problem should have been fixed thirty years ago, with 
simple devices such as wind-up electric generators and fluorescent lights. 
But the oil companies and the third world vendors, store-owners and 
money-lenders in the kerosene trade resist progress. They will not lend 
families the $50 capital it would take for them to escape this huge annual 
expense. Corporations, entrepreneurs and governments in the U.S. Japan and 
Europe have done NOTHING to help.

What does this cost? It is difficult to estimate, but it probably wastes on 
the order of 1,440 petajoules (1.3 quads). This costs the poorest families 
on earth ~$52 billion per year, or $110 per family. Many of these families 
have to choose between light, food and grade school education for their 
children. The cost is roughly equal to all foreign aid offered by all 
governments ($56 billion). U.S. foreign aid is about $7.5 billion per year 
for weapons and military assistance, and $7.5 billion for other purposes. 
In other words, we spend $7 billion in weapons and training to prop up the 
dictators and warlords, we give $7 billion which mainly ends up stolen by 
local officials, and we stand aside while Exxon and others steal $52 billion.

This is a trivial technical problem that any major first world corporation 
could have fixed in 1960, at a profit. But no corporation or government 
agency will raise a finger to fix it, because that would cut oil profits. 
We -- citizens and leaders alike -- stand aside while our corporations 
squeeze the lifeblood out of 2 billion people worldwide, the poorest of the 
poor. The problem isn't only oil, by any means. U.S. corporations in China 
operate sweat shops with appalling 19th century conditions. The U.S. 
Chamber of Commerce in China recently encouraged the Chinese government to 
pass Draconian anti-union, anti-worker labor laws far worse than anything 
ever imposed in the U.S. or England. People who organize unions or go on 
strike are kidnapped in the dead of night, tortured, beaten and thrown in 
prison or mental institutions indefinitely, or simply killed. Let me 
emphasize: the U.S. does not oppose this. Our government and our 
corporations publicly and visibly support it. This is no secret. It was 
reported in the New York Times and elsewhere, and the Chinese government 
uses our support as a stick to beat down resistance, telling its workers: 
"Don't expect any help from Uncle Sam! He is on our side."

Everyone in the third world knows they are being exploited & murdered by 
their own governments. They know that the U.S., Japan and other powerful 
nations support and abet terror, torture, degradation, exploitation, and 
outright slavery. The Scientific American reports there are roughly 27 
million slaves worldwide, including hundreds of thousands of sex slaves in 
the Japanese and Asian trade, who are mainly exploited by first world men. 
Poor people know this. That is why they are upset with us. They are not 
fools, and not irrational.

A century ago, we had no connection with people in India or Thailand. They 
were exploited by their own local tyrants, not by us. Now we are few hours 
away by airplane, and they see us and our lifestyle every day on 
television. Now the capital, the guns and military training comes from us. 
We are allied with the tyrants. We have *made ourselves* into targets. Try 
to imagine how this feels. How would Americans react if hundreds of 
thousands of girls and young women were being sold by starving parents or 
kidnapped and forced into prostitution to serve men from, say, Saudi 
Arabia, China or some other alien culture we despise? We would declare war, 
naturally. People in Thailand, India and the Philippines have not declared 
war on us (or the Japanese), but they are upset, and they all know what is 
happening. If you found yourself in their shoes, in a few years you would 
probably be willing to fly an airplane into the World Trade Center, or to 
blow yourself up in an Israeli shopping center. Considering all the misery 
in this world, it is amazing how few people have attacked the U.S. and 
other wealthy nations.

Sources:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

http://www.sciam.com/2002/0402issue/0402bales.html

IAEEL newsletter2/99

http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23_13_097.html

World Bank press release

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  2 17:20:45 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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At 4:16 PM 4/2/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>Yes, we want the oil, we need the oil, but we also pay for the oil in the
>>open market place.  What we won't tolerate is murder of our innocent
>>population. Is that so bad?
>
>That isn't bad. Yet from a global perspective, the oil industry, American
>consumers, the oil company executives, and our national energy policy
>together cause an inadvertent, unplanned holocaust. It is no one's fault,
>but it does contribute to the enmity the terrorists feel toward us. Yes, we
>pay good money for the oil, but we also help to ensure that most of the
>money is stolen by dictators and warlords. We prop them up and give them
>weapons. The U.S. and it allies send $50 million per day to Saddam Hussein
>(for 2 MMBD). Our make-believe "sanctions" play into his hands, giving him
>an excuse to steal even more than he did before the Gulf War. He even
>steals domestically grown food and exports it.
[snip off-point argument]

The argument you present is similar to saying the local gas station owner
does bad things with the money I pay for gas, and I know it and encourage
it.  I also drive a big expensive and wasteful car.  His employee and son
hates me for all the bad I cause with my money and to the environment and
do in my car in front of him, and for the jealousy he feels about my
lifestyle, and thus he feels he has a duty to kill me and my family.  He
starts shooting and kills at least one occupant of our car while we are at
the pump.  I pull out a gun we blast away at each other.   Are we blasting
because of all the background, or are we blasting away because one of us
was killed and I am defending myself?  I say it is the latter, it is not
about the gas.  Neither the feelings of the son nor the actions of any of
the parties justifies murder.  The real issue is that while wanton murder
is ongoing nothing will improve.  Oil is merely a side issue to the murder.
To some, spousal cheating justifies murder, or cheating at gambling, or
failing to pay a lone shark, or simply being drunk.  It is not the side
issue that is important when murder is commited, it is the murder itself
that is the vastly overriding issue.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  2 18:35:46 2002
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Anyone interested in very good explanation of 
what is happening...and may happen in the oil
market...and why.....check this out...

http://www.financialsense.com/series3/part1.htm

thank you for listening to my thoughts...

steve opelc

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 4:16 PM 4/2/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >Horace Heffner wrote:
> >
> >>Yes, we want the oil, we need the oil, but we also pay for the oil in the
> >>open market place.  What we won't tolerate is murder of our innocent
> >>population. Is that so bad?
> >
> >That isn't bad. Yet from a global perspective, the oil industry, American
> >consumers, the oil company executives, and our national energy policy
> >together cause an inadvertent, unplanned holocaust. It is no one's fault,
> >but it does contribute to the enmity the terrorists feel toward us. Yes, we
> >pay good money for the oil, but we also help to ensure that most of the
> >money is stolen by dictators and warlords. We prop them up and give them
> >weapons. The U.S. and it allies send $50 million per day to Saddam Hussein
> >(for 2 MMBD). Our make-believe "sanctions" play into his hands, giving him
> >an excuse to steal even more than he did before the Gulf War. He even
> >steals domestically grown food and exports it.
> [snip off-point argument]
> 
> The argument you present is similar to saying the local gas station owner
> does bad things with the money I pay for gas, and I know it and encourage
> it.  I also drive a big expensive and wasteful car.  His employee and son
> hates me for all the bad I cause with my money and to the environment and
> do in my car in front of him, and for the jealousy he feels about my
> lifestyle, and thus he feels he has a duty to kill me and my family.  He
> starts shooting and kills at least one occupant of our car while we are at
> the pump.  I pull out a gun we blast away at each other.   Are we blasting
> because of all the background, or are we blasting away because one of us
> was killed and I am defending myself?  I say it is the latter, it is not
> about the gas.  Neither the feelings of the son nor the actions of any of
> the parties justifies murder.  The real issue is that while wanton murder
> is ongoing nothing will improve.  Oil is merely a side issue to the murder.
> To some, spousal cheating justifies murder, or cheating at gambling, or
> failing to pay a lone shark, or simply being drunk.  It is not the side
> issue that is important when murder is commited, it is the murder itself
> that is the vastly overriding issue.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  2 23:55:10 2002
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:52:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Meat and oil
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Jed Rothwell posted;
>
>Growing the vast quantities of corn used to feed livestock in this 
>country takes vast quantities of chemical fertilizer, which in turn 
>takes vast quantities of oil -- 1.2 gallons for every bushel. So the 
>modern feedlot is really a city floating on a sea of oil. . . .
>

This reminds me of a question, I assume that there is about 125K 
BTU's per gallon makes 190K BTU's per bushel produced. At 56 lbs per 
bushel, I wonder how much energy is contained in a bushel? There are 
companies that are selling corn burning furnaces as a cost effective 
alternative to natural gas.

This reminds me of the last project  That I did for Malloy Electric. 
We wired a bank of motors which pump herbicides from bulk tanks into 
sprayers. Some times you have to do what you have to do.



-- 

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>The argument you present is similar to saying the local gas station owner 
>does bad things with the money I pay for gas, and I know it and encourage 
>it.  I also drive a big expensive and wasteful car.  His employee and son 
>hates me for all the bad I cause with my money and to the environment and 
>do in my car in front of him, and for the jealousy he feels about my 
>lifestyle . . .

That is not even a close analogy. Most people in the third word who hate 
Americans will never see a single dollar of oil money. All of the profits 
go to dictators, who will use them to attack us. We are giving our worst 
enemies vast sums of money. We are paying lunatics to build nuclear weapons 
to use against us! This is a crazy thing to do. The same goes for other 
natural resources and foreign aid. We pay for building supplies for schools 
in Pakistan, but the local landlords and warlords steal the materials to 
build private mansions, cow barns and arsenals for themselves.

The U.S. is not to blame for this, but we have inadvertently become 
involved. We think we need the oil, because we are too stupid to conserve 
and innovate, and because we have put oil companies in charge of our 
foreign policy and energy policies. The world has grown smaller, and people 
in far off places who had never heard of the U.S. fifty years ago now watch 
our television programs every day. As long as this toxic situation 
continues, we will be targets. Things will only improve gradually as people 
everywhere gain democracy, free enterprise and progress.


>Neither the feelings of the son nor the actions of any of the parties 
>justifies murder.

No one says it does! Least of all me.


>The real issue is that while wanton murder is ongoing nothing will 
>improve.  Oil is merely a side issue to the murder.

Oil is the direct cause. It pays for the guns, terrorist training camps and 
nuclear bomb factories. The dictators and terrorists depend on it. The 
first thing we must do to prevent wanton murder is to stop giving $100 
million a day to people who use that money to murder us!

We cannot prevent wanton murder by going to war with every third world 
dictatorship and terrorist organization. There are too many. Bombing them 
make things worse in the long run, just as Israeli attacks against the PLO 
have only made things worse. Yes, of course we must take military action 
against Al Qaeda, but we cannot kill or frighten every terrorist in the world.


>To some, spousal cheating justifies murder, or cheating at gambling, or
>failing to pay a lone shark, or simply being drunk.  It is not the side
>issue that is important when murder is commited, it is the murder itself
>that is the vastly overriding issue.

The murder is only a symptom of the larger problem. You will not see 
thousand of outraged terrorists in India, Japan or England chanting "Death 
to America" or plotting to use nuclear weapons on us, because those 
countries have democracy and the people have hope. It is not our fault, but 
it is our problem. It has *become* our problem. I think we can fix it at a 
moderate cost. Actually, we could make a profit fixing it, for example by 
inventing generators and loaning poor families the money to buy them.

The only way out of this morass is to help bring hope, peace, justice, 
knowledge and self-sufficiency to people. The U.S. could fire off all the 
bombs and ammunition we have. We could bankrupt the nation with military 
spending, but there would still be millions of angry people wanting to kill 
us. Or, we can gradually eliminate terrorists by spending a fraction of our 
military budget on books, water purifiers, stoves, vaccinations, small 
generators, bicycles, small loans to families (not governments!), English 
language training and educational TV.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 07:37:53 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Meat and oil
In-Reply-To: <a05100308b8d050957e00 [209.23.136.9]>
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thomas malloy wrote:

>This reminds me of a question, I assume that there is about 125K BTU's per 
>gallon makes 190K BTU's per bushel produced. At 56 lbs per bushel, I 
>wonder how much energy is contained in a bushel?

The New York Times article estimated 1.2 gallons of oil for every bushel of 
corn, mainly in the form of chemical fertilizer. This estimate was made by 
Prof. D. Pimentel, Cornell U. Yesterday I ordered a book by him which 
should have detailed breakdowns and estimates: Pimentel, D. and M. 
Pimentel. 1996. Food, Energy and Society. Revised Ed., Niwot, CO: 
University Press of Colorado. 363 pp.


>There are companies that are selling corn burning furnaces as a cost 
>effective alternative to natural gas.

This is insane. The only agricultural output which should be burned for 
fuel are waste products such as peanut shells in Georgia, and the leftovers 
from the olive oil presses in Spain.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:30 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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At 10:28 AM 4/3/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>The argument you present is similar to saying the local gas station owner
>>does bad things with the money I pay for gas, and I know it and encourage
>>it.  I also drive a big expensive and wasteful car.  His employee and son
>>hates me for all the bad I cause with my money and to the environment and
>>do in my car in front of him, and for the jealousy he feels about my
>>lifestyle . . .
>
>That is not even a close analogy.
[snip argument]

You miss the point.  You argue, in effect, I could have avoided the problem
by giving away money and by acting in accordance with the son's values.  I
say baloney.  Murder is murder.  If a man murders his wife the defense can
not be that the wife should have acted better, that if she had changed her
ways it would be a better world and she woud be alive.  The overriding
issue is the murder itself.

I simply find it impossible to believe we would be in Afghanistan without
the 9/11 attacks or that these attacks were engineered by those in the US
who would benefit from the backlash, that want an excuse to go get the oil.
Without 9/11, it would be business as usual, though that admittedly and
unfortunatly still leaves the smoldering situation in Iraq.   Granted,
there may be many problems with the business as usual mode, but we would
not be involved in major warfare.   It is not oil we are presently at war
over, it is extremism.  There likely would not be majority support for this
war without 9/11.

I'll also concede that it was oil related greed and conflict that prompted
the invasion of Kuwait, and the fallout of that lasts to this day.
However, it was not OUR greed that was the factor, but rather that of
Iraq's.

I am also concerned about extremism in the US.  I feel it is certain that
the extremists in the US would not have the platform and hearing they now
get if it were not for 9/11.  Our present military response is reasoned,
measured and justifiable, and the US people, in majority, support it.
However, if extremists get control of the country at some point, things
will go beyond all moral boundaries, and by that point, probably also still
with at least the apparent support of the majority.  I think we have to
fear the rise of extremism within as much as extremism from without.  We
have supported the Moslem side twice in the Balkans, in Kuwait, and even
repelled the Iraqi attack on Saudi soil. We are not anti-Moslem.  Moslem
nations should be as concerned as we are about letting their extremists run
amuck, and about acquiescing to the murder of innocent civilians.  Muderous
acts could ultimately cause sufficient outrage to bring the extremists to
power in the west.  Fanaticists have been in power in the world before, but
never with the kind of military power now involved.  It is not the issues
of the day that are of concern, for they will always be present in one form
or another, it is the willingness to accept murder as justifiable that is
of concern.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 08:50:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Jed's comments as usual have merit, but there is a part of the bind the US
is in that he has not touched on. It is part of our posture as a country
which won its place in the sun by rebellion against a tyrant that we deal
with constituted governments, even distasteful, rather than a systematic
attempt to undermine all other governments and cast them into our mold.

Yes, I know the US has destabilized some governments and gone to war with
others as part of the cold war strategy-madness, and we are doing the same
again under other pretexts. But when we trade with other nations, we have to
go through the government agencies, and these are often corrupt and do
indeed divert well-meaning aid away from the people. US aid can also have
hooks, like the requirement that the aid money be spent on contracts with US
firms who may or may not have what the country really needs.

It is well to point out that we buy oil from dictators who stiff their own
people. An item on ABC news last night pointed out that while the US gets
only 10% of its oil from Arab sources, Europe and Japan get most of theirs
from these sources. So the situation is a little more complex, as these are
our allies.

American culture is already pervasive and in some of the Arabic countries
seen as invasive as well. As I recall the American and European powers in
earlier years opened markets with gunboats.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:43 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>Jed's comments as usual have merit, but there is a part of the bind the US 
>is in that he has not touched on. It is part of our posture as a country 
>which won its place in the sun by rebellion against a tyrant that we deal 
>with constituted governments, even distasteful, rather than a systematic 
>attempt to undermine all other governments and cast them into our mold. . . .

>. . . But when we trade with other nations, we have to go through the 
>government agencies, and these are often corrupt and do indeed divert 
>well-meaning aid away from the people. . . .

I agree completely! We should not try to force democracy or capitalism on 
other countries. On the other hand, we should not encourage tyranny.

I agree we should have factories in China. Naturally, the standards and pay 
levels in those factories will be lower than in the U.S. But we should set 
a positive example. We should allow workers at our factories to organize 
unions, even though under Chinese law they could face the death penalty. 
They will be safe as long as the American owners do not bring charges. We 
should have 8 hour workdays, instead of 14 hours, six days a week. We 
should pay more than 14 cents an hour. We should protest Chinese labor 
laws, instead of encouraging them. At least, we should remain neutral. This 
would add a dollar or two to the cost of shirts in Wallmart, but I think it 
is worth it.

(See 
http://www.globalexchange.org/economy/corporations/china/FinalBriefingII.html)

It is not in our long term interest to ally ourselves with oppressive 
regimes. Eventually, I hope the Chinese will overthrow the communist thugs. 
When they do, I hope they will feel friendship toward the U.S., and not 
consider us co-conspirators in the Tienanmen Massacre and labor law 
atrocities. People will remember which side we supported.


>American culture is already pervasive and in some of the Arabic countries 
>seen as invasive as well.

It is pervasive and invasive. That is not our fault, and we can do nothing 
about it. It will destroy many wonderful local traditions and cultures. It 
will exterminate most of the languages in the world in another 100 years. 
This is another reason people hate us. It is another reason we must try to 
bring people the best our culture has to offer: they already have the worst.


>As I recall the American and European powers in earlier years opened 
>markets with gunboats.

That, I submit, is the mistake we want to avoid this time around. We must 
open the world. We have no choice. The world demands to be opened. Nothing 
can stop satellite television, the Internet, education and money. Let us 
try to open it in ways that do not make people despise us.

Naturally, the Japanese and Europeans also buy Arab oil. On the other hand, 
if we followed their policies and did as they do, together we could put 
Hussein out of business. They use much less oil per capita and per dollar 
of GDP. Their cars and other machines are more efficient. In 2001 the 
Germans added as much wind power as a U.S. nuclear reactor produces (2,600 
MW nameplate, 780 MW actual). We cannot ask the Europeans put pressure on 
Iraq when we ourselves are unwilling to raise CAFE standards.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:10 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>You miss the point.  You argue, in effect, I could have avoided the 
>problem by giving away money and by acting in accordance with the son's values.

No, I propose to sell them generators, at a profit. I propose we give 
micro-loans to the families, also at a profit. I oppose most foreign aid.


>I say baloney.  Murder is murder.  If a man murders his wife the defense 
>can not be . . .

There is no defense, and no justification. We all agree. The question is: 
how do you prevent it in the long term?


>The overriding issue is the murder itself.

The overriding *present day issue* is murder. In the long term, it is the 
conditions which give rise to murderous impulses. People in Georgia and 
Japan will never murder U.S. citizens or make war against us, even though 
they did in 1860 and 1941. Human nature does not change, yet these people 
are now peaceful and happy, because their environment, economy and 
government were forcibly reformed by the U.S. Federal government. 
Unfortunately, before we were able to reform them, the U.S. had to destroy 
Atlanta and Tokyo and kill millions of people. Sometimes you must use 
bombs, dreadful as they are. I hope we can reform Afghanistan.


>I simply find it impossible to believe we would be in Afghanistan without 
>the 9/11 attacks . . .

Of course not!


>. . . or that these attacks were engineered by those in the US who would 
>benefit from the backlash . . .

That's preposterous! The attacks were engineered by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, 
for the reasons they describe in their training manual: 
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm


>Without 9/11, it would be business as usual, though that admittedly and
>unfortunatly still leaves the smoldering situation in Iraq.

It leaves two billion other smoldering tragic situations -- literally 
smoldering -- in one-third of the houses on earth. People who can barely 
afford to eat are paying $100 per month for light that should cost ten 
cents. The oil companies and others derail progress and foist dangerous 
technology on people, killing and maiming millions. Obsolete automobile 
technology kills 40,000 people in U.S. No one is directly responsible. 
There is no mastermind like Bin Laden. Yet collectively, our corporations 
are causing a holocaust, and contributing to the poverty and anger that 
breeds terrorism. Technology is not the only problem of course! But it is a 
major contributing cause.


>I am also concerned about extremism in the US.  I feel it is certain that
>the extremists in the US would not have the platform and hearing they now 
>get if it were not for 9/11.  Our present military response is reasoned, 
>measured and justifiable, and the US people, in majority, support it. 
>However, if extremists get control of the country at some point, things 
>will go beyond all moral boundaries . . .

I agree 100%. The military response has been reasoned, and it was 
necessary. But it cannot solve the long-term problem. It can only set the 
stage, and provide an opportunity for reform, the way it did in Georgia and 
Japan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 11:52:44 2002
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:50:44 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Nuclear plant alert in Georgia
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Here is a note from the back pages of the business section in today Atlanta 
Journal:

"UTILITIES/ENERGY: Southern Co. ends nuclear plant alert

Southern Co. terminated an alert at its Edwin I. Hatch Nuclear Plant, near 
Baxley, after electricity was restored to light panels that act as alarm 
indicators on a control panel. Earlier Tuesday, the energy company declared 
the alert when the electric generating plant lost an internal power supply. 
In a written statement on Tuesday, Southern Co. said no radiation was 
released, nor was there any danger to the public. Company officials still 
don't know what caused the interruption of electricity."

This does not engender confidence. Also, the nuclear industry admitted:


"Airliner too much for nuclear plants

Facilities couldn't withstand impact

Brett Lieberman - Newhouse News Service

Friday, March 29, 2002

Washington --- Government regulators have acknowledged for the first time 
that none of the 103 operating nuclear reactors in the United States could 
withstand the impact of an airliner like those that crashed into the World 
Trade Center and Pentagon.

Concern that nuclear power plants could be an inviting target for 
terrorists bent on using an airplane to unleash radiation prompted an 
intense public-relations effort by the nuclear power industry to ease 
public worries after the Sept. 11 attacks. Federal officials also played 
down the threat and insisted that nuclear containment buildings are 
"robust" and capable of withstanding large explosions.

But now, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has released documents showing 
that only 4 percent of U.S. nuclear power plants took plane crashes into 
account in their designs, and that even those contemplated only smaller 
aircraft traveling at slower speeds. No consideration of plane crashes was 
included in the designs of the other 96 percent of nuclear plants. . . ."


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 12:14:13 2002
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:16:25 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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At 2:33 PM 4/3/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>>I simply find it impossible to believe we would be in Afghanistan without
>>the 9/11 attacks . . .
>
>Of course not!
>
>
>>. . . or that these attacks were engineered by those in the US who would
>>benefit from the backlash . . .
>
>That's preposterous!


OK, then we are agreed on the original issue, that the following premise is
false:

>The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
>total control of middle eastern oil supplies.


The question of how do you prevent it in the long term is your issue, not
mine.  I am satisfied now to have had my say on this.

I certainly agree that most all of what you say in regard to remdies to
soem of the world problems is true, and further that many of the reasons
you give are justifications for spending a lifetime looking for ways to
solve the energy problem, which is what vortex is all about.  It is time I
returned to my lunatic fringe theories and experiments and stopped
discussing politics.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 12:44:40 2002
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Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>OK, then we are agreed on the original issue, that the following premise 
>is false:
>
> >The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
> >total control of middle eastern oil supplies.

I didn't say that. That was in another thread. That's silly. Oil is the 
proximate cause. It provides the means, and it set in motion the events, 
such as the U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. Removing it would quench the U.S. 
and Israeli wars. But it is not the core motivation. The core motivation is 
a clash of cultures . . . and religion I suppose.

Oil was also the proximate cause of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. 
You might say it was the straw that broke the camel's back.


>. . . that many of the reasons you give are justifications for spending a 
>lifetime looking for ways to solve the energy problem, which is what 
>vortex is all about.

Maybe not a whole lifetime! After we solve the problem we can do something 
else. Still, energy is a "sweet problem," as Oppenheimer said of the atom 
bomb. After cold fusion succeeds, anything else will be an anticlimax. A 
Wright brothers biographer described their careers after 1908: "inventing 
the airplane was a hard act to follow."

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:57:24 -0500 (EST)
From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
Subject: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hullo,

I am new to this list, which prolly means I should not
join into the nice flame wars (ooh, shiny), but I have
a question... why does the world get their Oil from
the Middle East?

Accord to Ralph Klein, King of Alberta, a Canadian
province, Alberta has way more oil than in the middle
east. What better country to develop for than one
that's currency is dropping below the Mexican Peso.
Canada also has some excellent Diamond resources in
Nunuvit, and Northwest Territories, that are only
starting to get developed. So you can stay away from
those African Guerilla Conflicting Tribes Warefare
type problems.

Unfortunately, President Bush is unable to locate
Canada on a map (I am sure that is the reason he is
dealing more with Mexico than us above the 49th
parrell), so most businesses do not seem to be seeing
Canada as a serious venture, other than Exxon-Mobile
(Esso where I live), who has several oil developing
plants throughout Canada.

Heck for some development you do not need to have a
lisence from Canada. Take a look a the case where USA
tested a Nuclear Submarine in the artic oceans within
Canadian National waters. Canada's military did not
even know until it appeared in the newspapers in USA.

Just wondering, thats all.

(Please note, that not even I can keep track of when I
am joking and when I am being serious, so it is hard
for me to expect you to know when I am doing either one.)

=====
__   __ _____ ___ ____    __    __   ____   ____
\ \ / // ___// _ | __ \   | \   | | /      /  _ \
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The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 14:22:16 2002
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:19:00 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: High efficiency three-step thermoelectric power
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17% conversion is reported with a three stage converters, starting at 800 
deg C. Just the thing for a CF heat engine with no moving parts! The 
concept is similar to a triple expansion marine piston steam engine, circa 
1930.

See:

http://www.nal.go.jp/eng/newsletter/99summer/p02.htm

Elsewhere, the NAL claimed in 1998 that the record for one-stage 
thermoelectric devices was 9%, in Russia. In 2001, Kucherov and Hagelstein 
claimed they achieved 17% with a single stage device, and they say the 
theoretical limit is 50%. I believe their starting temperature is lower 
than 800 deg C. I do not know whether their results have been independently 
verified.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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>I am new to this list, which prolly means I should not
>join into the nice flame wars (ooh, shiny), but I have
>a question... why does the world get their Oil from
>the Middle East?

Cause that's were the oil is.
>
>Accord to Ralph Klein, King of Alberta, a Canadian
>province, Alberta has way more oil than in the middle
>east.

I find that hard to believe, can you site a source, a real source, for this?


 What better country to develop for than one
>that's currency is dropping below the Mexican Peso.

I agree

>Canada also has some excellent Diamond resources in
>Nunuvit, and Northwest Territories, that are only
>starting to get developed. So you can stay away from
>those African Guerilla Conflicting Tribes Warefare
>type problems.
>
We have a local jeweler advertising them. 

>Unfortunately, President Bush is unable to locate
>Canada on a map 

I think that he knows were it is.

 so most businesses do not seem to be seeing
>Canada as a serious venture, other than Exxon-Mobile

Some people are prejudised against Canadian investments. I think that it has
to do with your socialist government. 

Thomas Malloy



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  3 15:02:38 2002
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:59:16 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Ethanol economics
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Here are some references for ethanol production. Some experts claim it 
takes 1 MJ of fossil fuel to produce 1.2 ~ 1.5 MJ of ethanol energy. Others 
say it takes more fossil fuel input than the ethanol produces. All in all, 
this is economic insanity. It is also immoral, since millions of people who 
might eat the corn starve to death every year. See:

http://energy.cas.psu.edu/energycontent.html

http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/facts/93-023.htm

http://www.greenfuels.org/energybal.html

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm

Good quote from the latter:

"While the Government's commitment to ethanol has been welcomed by 
agricultural interests and the ethanol industry, critics question the 
rationale behind policies that promote ethanol for energy security 
benefits, often citing that corn ethanol has a negative energy value (NEV) 
(Pimentel and Ho). That is, the liquid fuel and other energy sources 
required to grow and convert corn into ethanol are greater than the energy 
value present in the ethanol fuel. This implies that corn ethanol is not an 
energy substitute and that increasing its production does little to 
displace oil imports and increase energy security."

- Jed

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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Results so far...
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I asked on sci.physics.fusion what the skeptics thought of the Clarke
article in Fusion Science and Technology on the finding of 4HE, 3He and
tritium in the Arata CF cell.

The results so far...
Two people say it was errors. 

One of them hasn't even read the articles, but if I could locate it for
him he'd read it and tell me what was wrong. 

The other skeptic implied that some trivial error Arata is alleged to have
made in 1998 means there is a similar error now, and the results can be
ignored.

I'm not going to debate them or point out the flaw in their thinking, I
don't see the point. 

Besides, s.p.f. is a very hostile environment and I don't care to associate
with those people. I was curious how they rationalized their positions.

Just thought I'd share...



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Subject: Re: Results so far...
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:42 PM
Subject: Results so far...


> I asked on sci.physics.fusion what the skeptics thought of the Clarke
> article in Fusion Science and Technology on the finding of 4HE, 3He and
> tritium in the Arata CF cell.
>
> The results so far...
> Two people say it was errors.
>
> One of them hasn't even read the articles, but if I could locate it for
> him he'd read it and tell me what was wrong.
>
> The other skeptic implied that some trivial error Arata is alleged to have
> made in 1998 means there is a similar error now, and the results can be
> ignored.
>
> I'm not going to debate them or point out the flaw in their thinking, I
> don't see the point.
>
> Besides, s.p.f. is a very hostile environment and I don't care to
associate
> with those people. I was curious how they rationalized their positions.
>
> Just thought I'd share...

A few years back, I did an article on Arata"s work for Infinite Energy. Gene
Mallove sent me copies of papers Arata had published, and I think Akira sent
me another. I found it rather tough to piece together a coherent picture
from the papers, as Arata's writing is terse and the translations not that
great, and some of the technology unfamiliar. I thought I did a decent job
of it, and at ICCF-7 Mike McKubre commented favorably on it. This was before
McKubre obtained cathodes from Arata and essentially confirmed Arata's
findings in his own lab. He did not perform exactly the same tests that
Arata did, but he found excess heat and nuclear 'ash'.

Rich Murray was at that time one of the resident skeptics on vortex and he
called in support from spf as needed. Rich knew a little physics, had lots
of time and a fertile imagination when it came to things that might be
wrong. There ensued a long debate on vortex over details of Arata's work. I
remember one skeptic who found one datum on one curve I could not account
for, and on that basis rejected the whole of Arata's work. When Murray saw
McKubre's clean data on the Case cell he had nothing to say for a while, but
rallied with some more nit-picking and then left the vortex scene.

I'm not sure of the source now, but a while back I saw a useful distinction
between a critic and a skeptic. The critic will actually study what a
proponent has to say; he will visit, work alongside, see what was done. The
skeptic does none of this; he finds some disagreement with expectations and
pounces on this, using one flaw to reject a whole work.

I have seen this in another article I wrote for Infinite Energy, about the
Correa's work. The article was a careful job of explaining some rather
complex tests and I made a couple of presentation errors that did not affect
the basic results presented. One person pounced on my mistakes, and event
though these were corrected and explained in a follow-up article, refused to
consider the subject matter.

Some justification for this is that journal articles are presumably exact
and fully reliable reports on which one can rely and build. If any error is
found, no matter how trivial, then all is suspect, for the reader cannot
take the time to deeply study the topic to discover what other errors there
may be.

One can see this in action in the  Hydrino Study Group forum. Peter
Zimmerman is there, and others, who are busy picking over details in Mills'
mathematics and the spectra from certain experiments. The voluminous reports
of substantial excess energy and other good stuff are ignored as
intrinsically flawed until fully reproduced by an independent, reliable
investigator.

Nothing will satisfy the determined skeptic. He can always find some
imagined error.

I'm currently fishing in other waters, but I find the same behavior there.

Mike Carrell




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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Worst U.S. nuclear plant
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See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/opinion/04HERB.html

Quotes:

April 4, 2002
Rising Anxiety
By BOB HERBERT

The nuclear reactor known as Indian Point 2 sits beside the Hudson River 
about 30 miles north of New York City. It has the worst safety rating of 
all 103 nuclear reactors in the United States. And of all the U.S. 
reactors, it's located in the most densely populated region.
That is not a good combination of circumstances.

Concern over the plant's continuing safety problems has heightened since 
Sept. 11. . . .

In February 2000 an accident at Indian Point 2 resulted in the discharge of 
20,000 gallons of radioactive water. Officials said the radiation released 
was not a threat to public health, but the reactor was closed for nearly a 
year. Last December, four of seven control room crews failed to pass their 
annual qualification exams. That same month the reactor shut down 
automatically after an electrical connection to the plant's turbine 
switched off unexpectedly. . . .

Casualties from a worst-case scenario at the complex would dwarf those of 
the attack on the World Trade Center. A 1982 study commissioned by the U.S. 
Nuclear Regulatory Commission found that a meltdown at Indian Point 2 could 
cause 46,000 fatalities and 141,000 injuries in the short term. The 
potential casualties from a meltdown at Indian Point 3 were even worse. 
Long-term, the deaths from cancer resulting from an Indian Point 
catastrophe would likely be horrendous. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  4 07:06:35 2002
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:10:26 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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At 3:41 PM 4/3/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>OK, then we are agreed on the original issue, that the following premise
>>is false:
>>
>> >The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
>> >total control of middle eastern oil supplies.
>
>I didn't say that. That was in another thread.

What!!???!?!?!??  YOU are the one who quoted ME when you renamed the thread
in this first post onder the present thread name:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 4:16 PM 4/2/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>Yes, we want the oil, we need the oil, but we also pay for the oil in the
>>open market place.  What we won't tolerate is murder of our innocent
>>population. Is that so bad?
>
>That isn't bad. Yet from a global perspective, the oil industry, American
>consumers, the oil company executives, and our national energy policy
>together cause an inadvertent, unplanned holocaust.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



>That's silly.

I repeat your more recent statements:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 2:33 PM 4/3/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>>I simply find it impossible to believe we would be in Afghanistan without
>>the 9/11 attacks . . .
>
>Of course not!
>
>
>>. . . or that these attacks were engineered by those in the US who would
>>benefit from the backlash . . .
>
>That's preposterous!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



>Oil is the
>proximate cause.

I never said anything about "proximate".



>It provides the means, and it set in motion the events,
>such as the U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. Removing it would quench the U.S.
>and Israeli wars. But it is not the core motivation. The core motivation is
>a clash of cultures . . . and religion I suppose.
>
>Oil was also the proximate cause of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
>You might say it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

First, let me note that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a military attack on
military targets.  There would have, in effect, even been prior notice had
there not been the well known clerical problems.  Though it outraged the
American public and brought the US into the war, it was not in the same
league with the 9/11 attack, which is deserving of war crimes trials.  The
anthrax  attack through the postal system is even more horrific, but the
source of that has not yet been identified.  But noen of the above is
essential to the fine hairs we are splitting now.

Second, let me also note that the reason Japan was being squeezed for
natural resources was to attempt to curb its attacks on China and other
Japanese army colonialist actions, so it is a matter of just how proximate
one is to the cause, going back to the big bang.  However, this also is not
so germain.

Last, let me refer you to the Al Qaeda training manual to which you
originally refered as the primary reason for the 9/11 atacks and where I
agree you will find the REAL proximate reason for the 9/11 attacks -
extremist hatred:

<http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm>


>
>
>>. . . that many of the reasons you give are justifications for spending a
>>lifetime looking for ways to solve the energy problem, which is what
>>vortex is all about.
>
>Maybe not a whole lifetime! After we solve the problem we can do something
>else. Still, energy is a "sweet problem," as Oppenheimer said of the atom
>bomb. After cold fusion succeeds, anything else will be an anticlimax. A
>Wright brothers biographer described their careers after 1908: "inventing
>the airplane was a hard act to follow."

We live in hope.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:16:26 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Results so far...
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>McKubre obtained cathodes from Arata and essentially confirmed Arata's 
>findings in his own lab. He did not perform exactly the same tests that 
>Arata did, but he found excess heat and nuclear 'ash'.

The experts I have spoken with say McKubre did a better job.


>[Mills'] voluminous reports of substantial excess energy and other good 
>stuff are ignored as intrinsically flawed until fully reproduced by an 
>independent, reliable investigator.

I agree with that! Independent replication is essential. Even a skilled, 
honest researchers can make a mistake, and it is even possible he might be 
lying. Independent replication (or at least verification) is gold standard 
of experimental science.

I do not know of "voluminous reports of substantial excess energy." Mills 
published a few reports or excess energy. One or two others say they 
observed very low level heat with nickel. None of Mills' other energy 
claims have been replicated as far as I know, and frankly, the Ni claims 
are marginal.

Dennis Cravens worked for years with Ni, but the apparent heat was so small 
he never developed complete confidence in the results, and he has abandoned 
Ni. Srinivasan worked with Ni at SRI for months, but he was never able to 
go convincingly beyond the bounds of recombination. A group at Lincoln Labs 
supposedly observed high heat, but they never released a report. I do not 
know of any other credible Ni research.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  4 07:43:18 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Horace Heffner wrote:

 >> >The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
> >> >total control of middle eastern oil supplies.
> >
> >I didn't say that. That was in another thread.
>
>What!!???!?!?!??  YOU are the one who quoted ME when you renamed the thread
>in this first post onder the present thread name:

Right. That's why I made it a new thread. It seems to me your eloquent 
statement covers broader ground than the assertion that the U.S. somehow 
engineered the war -- an assertion we agree is ridiculous. My point is that 
energy policy and our daily habits cause a lot of harm even when we have no 
intention of causing harm, and when we follow the rules and pay for the oil.


> >Oil is the
> >proximate cause.
>
>I never said anything about "proximate".

No, but I did!


> >Oil was also the proximate cause of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
> >You might say it was the straw that broke the camel's back.
>
>First, let me note that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a military attack on
>military targets.  There would have, in effect, even been prior notice had
>there not been the well known clerical problems. . . .

Yes, yes, of course. But oil was the proximate or immediate cause that 
triggered the attack that month, and not some other month later (or perhaps 
never). The U.S. cut off Japan's oil supply, and the Japanese Navy figured 
it had a year to either attack or surrender for lack of fuel. The first 
target of conquest was the oil in the East Indies. If the oil embargo had 
come six months later, after Leningrad, the Japanese might have concluded 
that the Soviet Union and England would survive, and I doubt they would 
have attacked the U.S. in that case. They were more afraid of the Soviet 
Union than the U.S., after their defeat in Nomonhan in 1939.

Also, some historians say that the only effective aerial bombing campaign 
in Europe was the attack on synthetic oil production in Germany. Source: D. 
Yergin, "The Prize," (Touchstone, 1992)


>Though it outraged the American public and brought the US into the war, it 
>was not in the same league with the 9/11 attack, which is deserving of war 
>crimes trials.

I did not mean to imply it was. I was merely noting that oil has often 
played a key role in triggering wars.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:33:51 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Is there a heat-to-light chip?
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Has anyone heard of a gadget similar to a thermoelectric chip which 
converts heat into light? Does a rare earth mantel work with raw heat, or 
does it require a flame?

- Jed

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http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s520317.htm

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	Dear Jed,

	You do not need a "chip" to get "light" from "heat"

	If you warm just about Anything enough it will emit EM radiation
and as you increase the temperature, the materials begin to also emit at
shorter and shorter WL, wave lenghts.

	The term "chip" is often mis used and used out of context.

	There are solid state more-than-one-step thermal to electrical
conversion:  Example:
	
	Beginning with BiTe N and P thermo junctions the output can be
conveyed to GaAs/InP/SiP/SiB or other electric to optical emitters..

	Gas lamp mantles are thin structures heated to incansdescent
emission.  Combustion is the source of the 'heat'.


On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Has anyone heard of a gadget similar to a thermoelectric chip which 
> converts heat into light? Does a rare earth mantel work with raw heat, or 
> does it require a flame?
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  4 12:43:20 2002
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:51:31 -0500
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Hi Terry.

Sounds great, except for those cursed anecdotal
reports that BL can pass thru glass windows.

A clever explanation anyway...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:00 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ball Lightning Explained


http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s520317.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  4 13:23:38 2002
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Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 16:15:42 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a heat-to-light chip?
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(Please post response to Vortex.)

John Schnurer wrote:

>         You do not need a "chip" to get "light" from "heat"
>
>         If you warm just about Anything enough it will emit EM radiation 
> . . .

Yes, I realize that. I am wondering if there is a device which converts low 
grade heat at moderate temperatures into light, say 100 to 300 deg C. 
Something like that might be used with cold fusion. Temperatures high 
enough to produce visible incandescent heat are dangerously hot. 
(Incandescent light bulbs cause fires, especially halogen lights. I 
recommend that all halogen "torch lights" be replaced with the new 
round-bulb fluorescent torch lights with identical light output. Halogen 
torch lights often live up to their name, torching apartments and student 
dormitories.)


>         There are solid state more-than-one-step thermal to electrical
>conversion:  Example:
>
>         Beginning with BiTe N and P thermo junctions the output can be
>conveyed to GaAs/InP/SiP/SiB or other electric to optical emitters..

What temperatures do they require? Approximately how efficient are they?


>         Gas lamp mantles are thin structures heated to incansdescent
>emission.  Combustion is the source of the 'heat'.

Perhaps they would work well heated by glow discharge CF. Glow discharge 
produces the wrong wavelengths, and it is too hot for indoor use. It might 
work well in something like a searchlight.

- Jed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 09:12:44 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:10:26 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>>> >The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
>>> >total control of middle eastern oil supplies.
>>
>>I didn't say that. That was in another thread.
>
>What!!???!?!?!??  YOU are the one who quoted ME when you renamed the thread
>in this first post onder the present thread name:
[snip]
Jed is correct. That statement was mine, not his.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:25:49 EST
Subject: APS March meeting on Cold Fusion
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, physics@tularosa.net, haisch@calphysics.org,
        halfox uswest.net, HaraldReissHD@aol.com, patrick.bailey@lmco.com,
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 <A HREF="http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR02/baps/abs/S7810.html">Session W21 - Cold Fusion.</A> 


Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica> <A HREF="http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR02/baps/abs/S7810.html">Session W21 - Cold Fusion.</A> <FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  4 19:12:18 2002
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Subject: Re: Is there a heat-to-light chip?
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Jed; vo:

There is a yahoo group that is studying "ambient energy"  On this group we 
are learning how to convert small thermal gradients into usable power.  In 
the process we have gathered an in depth realization of what exactly is 
usable.  I am curious why you are interested in light.  It is impossible to 
store and difficult to use

In the case of cold fusion I would recommend a TEC (Thermal Electric 
Cooler) used as a thermal couple source.  It provides gobs of current 
(although no  much voltage) and if properly mounted and loaded will offer 
efficiencies approaching that of a sterling engine.  Now you have 
electricity which is the most vertical energy around.  If you cascade 
several of them and are able to offer 3 volts I can take you anywhere from 
there with a minimum of loss.

It is electricity that you are ultimately looking for.  Correct?


At 04:15 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>(Please post response to Vortex.)
>
>John Schnurer wrote:
>
>>         You do not need a "chip" to get "light" from "heat"
>>
>>         If you warm just about Anything enough it will emit EM radiation 
>> . . .
>
>Yes, I realize that. I am wondering if there is a device which converts 
>low grade heat at moderate temperatures into light, say 100 to 300 deg C. 
>Something like that might be used with cold fusion. Temperatures high 
>enough to produce visible incandescent heat are dangerously hot. 
>(Incandescent light bulbs cause fires, especially halogen lights. I 
>recommend that all halogen "torch lights" be replaced with the new 
>round-bulb fluorescent torch lights with identical light output. Halogen 
>torch lights often live up to their name, torching apartments and student 
>dormitories.)
>
>
>>         There are solid state more-than-one-step thermal to electrical
>>conversion:  Example:
>>
>>         Beginning with BiTe N and P thermo junctions the output can be
>>conveyed to GaAs/InP/SiP/SiB or other electric to optical emitters..
>
>What temperatures do they require? Approximately how efficient are they?
>
>
>>         Gas lamp mantles are thin structures heated to incansdescent
>>emission.  Combustion is the source of the 'heat'.
>
>Perhaps they would work well heated by glow discharge CF. Glow discharge 
>produces the wrong wavelengths, and it is too hot for indoor use. It might 
>work well in something like a searchlight.
>
>- Jed

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:37:12 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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At 9:12 AM 4/5/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:10:26 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>>> >The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
>>>> >total control of middle eastern oil supplies.
>>>
>>>I didn't say that. That was in another thread.
>>
>>What!!???!?!?!??  YOU are the one who quoted ME when you renamed the thread
>>in this first post onder the present thread name:
>[snip]
>Jed is correct. That statement was mine, not his.

This is a misunderstanding or miscommunication.  You have snipped too much
to make sense of the above.  If you look at it in the orginal contex, you
will see that the issue I am addressing is the changing of the thread name
by Jed while continuing the same conversation, and that I am NOT implying
that he said "The real reason for this war is simple.  Certain entities in
the US want total control of middle eastern oil supplies."  I was merely
trying to keep the conversation on the only point of interest for me. I
have no interest at all in a general wandering political conversation.
When Jed says "I didn't say that", I read it as Jed saying that he did not
agree that "the following premise is false".  It was my stated conclusion
that "we are agreed on the original issue" because the statements to which
he explicitly agreed (and whcih are repeated below) make that premise
necessary.

This is about 4 posts more than I wished to make on this issue, so I'm
going to let it drop from here.  For convenience, here is a rehash of the
conversation that this is about:

At 3:41 PM 4/3/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>OK, then we are agreed on the original issue, that the following premise
>>is false:
>>
>> >The real reason for this war is simple. Certain entities in the US want
>> >total control of middle eastern oil supplies.
>
>I didn't say that. That was in another thread.

What!!???!?!?!??  YOU are the one who quoted ME when you renamed the thread
in this first post onder the present thread name:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 4:16 PM 4/2/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>Yes, we want the oil, we need the oil, but we also pay for the oil in the
>>open market place.  What we won't tolerate is murder of our innocent
>>population. Is that so bad?
>
>That isn't bad. Yet from a global perspective, the oil industry, American
>consumers, the oil company executives, and our national energy policy
>together cause an inadvertent, unplanned holocaust.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



>That's silly.

I repeat your more recent statements:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 2:33 PM 4/3/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>>I simply find it impossible to believe we would be in Afghanistan without
>>the 9/11 attacks . . .
>
>Of course not!
>
>
>>. . . or that these attacks were engineered by those in the US who would
>>benefit from the backlash . . .
>
>That's preposterous!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



>Oil is the
>proximate cause.

I never said anything about "proximate".

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 01:28:15 2002
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Ball Lightning Explained
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:25:14 +0100
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This explanation says that lightning entering soil etc, creates tubes where
any silicon oxides present are reduced to silicon metal vapour which gets
ejected out of the soil tubes to form vortex (on topic at last - hurray!)
rings which remain stable, continuing to glow until the silicon is
reoxidised. Keith Nagel mentioned the anecdotal reports that ball lightning
can pass through windows - glass is some form of silicon oxide is it not?
Maybe there is some mechanism for energetic silicon to diffuse through its
own oxide?

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 05:38:51 2002
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Keith wrote:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s520317.htm

Sounds great, except for those cursed anecdotal
reports that BL can pass thru glass windows.

Hi All,

Yes, it's a clever explanation; but, for me, it is 
contradicted by the ball of lightning I saw come through
a glass window.  My wife saw it too.  It passed close
to my oldest son's face and disappeared with a pop 
when it touched the thermostat on the wall.  The
thermostat was burned out.  This is something I'll
never forget.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 07:33:50 2002
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:30:38 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a heat-to-light chip?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404210642.009efa40 pop.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404160125.03ab69c0 mail.DIRECTVInternet.co m>
 <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020404145754.23977G-100000 college.antioch- college.edu>
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Charles Ford wrote:

>In the case of cold fusion I would recommend a TEC (Thermal Electric 
>Cooler) used as a thermal couple source.  It provides gobs of current 
>(although no  much voltage) . . .

Yes, I realize one could use a thermoelectric chip to produce electricity 
which in turn produces light. But I was wondering if there was a more 
direct method.


>It is electricity that you are ultimately looking for.  Correct?

Not necessarily. I am writing an article about how heat might be used for 
many applications where we presently use electricity. So far I wrote:

"Many applications now performed with electricity, such as drying clothes 
and cooking, may be done directly with cold fusion heat. Electric motors 
for things like washing machine agitators, blowers, elevators and 
escalators may even be replaced with more efficient, direct drive cold 
fusion steam turbines. In the late 19th century, small piston steam engines 
did many tasks we now assume must be done with electricity. Cold fusion 
glow discharge might be used directly in large outdoor streetlights and 
search lamps. It would be too hot and dangerous for small lights."

A steam turbine driving escalator may sound like a hot, gigantic kludge, 
but it may not be. Imagine in the year 2050 you are designing a shopping 
mall with 20 escalators, each with a 2 kW motor. You generate all of your 
own power from cold fusion; the power companies and the grid no longer 
exist. You can add an extra 40 kW of capacity to the on-site generator and 
install heavy duty wiring and electric motors in the escalators, or you can 
outfit each escalator with its own self-contained, self powered 2 kW steam 
turbine. I predict the trend well be toward self powered machines. Machines 
with no moving parts will use thermoelectric conversion, particularly if 
Hagelstein is right and 50% conversion is possible. However, machines such 
as blowers, automobiles and escalator motors must have moving parts because 
they themselves move, and it might be more practical to convert heat into 
mechanical energy rather than electricity. Overall, the cost of equipment, 
bulk of machinery, and waste heat might be lower.

I predict heavy duty wires will go out of fashion. In fact, the only 
"wiring" in buildings in 2100 will be fiber optic connections to control 
and monitor independently powered machines such as overhead lights, 
escalators, surveillance cameras and so on.

- Jed

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Subject: NRC criticizes Davis-Besse operator
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More bad news for fission energy. Problems at large generating plants are 
normal and usually no cause for concern, but I think problems are 
increasing at nuclear plants, perhaps because they are getting old. See:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2002/apr/05/040510411.html

QUOTES:

NRC says Ohio nuclear plant hole should have been found earlier

OAK HARBOR, Ohio (AP) - An acid leak that ate through a steel cap over a 
nuclear plant's reactor vessel should have been spotted as many as four 
years ago, according to a Nuclear Regulatory Commission report released Friday.

Inspectors said there were many opportunities for the operator of the 
Davis-Besse plant to find the problem, which wasn't discovered until the 
plant was shut down in February for refueling. . . .

Plant employees found leaking boric acid created a 6-inch hole in the steel 
cap near a cracked control rod nozzle. The hole was stopped by a steel 
layer impervious to the acid.

The NRC said it was the most extensive corrosion ever found on top of a 
U.S. nuclear plant reactor. Inspectors spotted a second cavity two weeks 
later. . . .

. . . The plant had visual inspections over the years, but corrosion was 
overlooked because plant staff and management for years did not realize the 
significance of boric acid deposits on top of the vessel head . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 09:39:08 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a heat-to-light chip?
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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> >It is electricity that you are ultimately looking for. 
> > Correct?
> 
> Not necessarily. I am writing an article about how heat might
> be used for 
> many applications where we presently use electricity. So far
> I wrote:
> 
> "Many applications now performed with electricity, such as
> drying clothes and cooking, may be done directly with cold
> fusion heat.

> Electric motors for things like washing machine agitators,
> blowers, elevators and escalators may even be replaced with
> more efficient, direct drive cold fusion steam turbines. In
> the late 19th century, small piston steam engines 
> did many tasks we now assume must be done with electricity.
> Cold fusion glow discharge might be used directly in large
> outdoor streetlights and search lamps. It would be too hot
> and dangerous for small lights."
> 
> A steam turbine driving escalator may sound like a hot,
> gigantic kludge, but it may not be. Imagine in the year
> 2050 you are designing a shopping mall with 20 escalators,
> each with a 2 kW motor. You generate

Jed:

I agree that things may change in this way but currently I
believe there is no usable solution in the temperature range
you are looking at.  I think that if it becomes necessary it
would be a simple matter to excite fosphorus in a thermal - to
electric - to light stick on patch.  or something of that sort.

As needs change so also will the applications.

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 11:39:22 2002
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And timely!

5,878,155 Method for verifying human identity during electronic
sale transactions

<http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%275,878,155%27.WKU.&OS=PN/5,878,155&RS=PN/5,878,155>

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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Ball Lightning Explained
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:48:12 -0500
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Hi Jack.

Yes, that was my point as well.

Actually, what was new about the research was not
the notion of vortex ball lightning, that theory has
been around for quite some time. Rather, it's the
mechanism ( the lightning tubes ) that generates them.

Thanks for the report, what were the weather conditions
like outside when the ball came thru the closed window?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: jack mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On
Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:32 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ball Lightning Explained



Keith wrote:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s520317.htm

Sounds great, except for those cursed anecdotal
reports that BL can pass thru glass windows.

Hi All,

Yes, it's a clever explanation; but, for me, it is 
contradicted by the ball of lightning I saw come through
a glass window.  My wife saw it too.  It passed close
to my oldest son's face and disappeared with a pop 
when it touched the thermostat on the wall.  The
thermostat was burned out.  This is something I'll
never forget.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 12:43:54 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Apr 05, 2002
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:09:57 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Apr 02   Washington, DC 

1. JASON: IS THE DIVORCE FINAL? Each summer for 40 years, an
elite group of scientists has gathered for six weeks to wrestle
with national security issues raised by the Defense Department
and other government agencies.  Jason's influence on national 
security policy in that time has been out of all proportion to
the size of the program.  That can be attributed to a membership
of brilliant, academic research scientists, ranging from newly
minted PhDs to Nobel laureates, picked by other members.  But
last winter, Jason's sponsor, DARPA, wanted three new members, a
Washington insider and two Silicon Valley executives.  When Jason
turned up its nose, DARPA terminated its contract.  From Capitol
Hill to the White House, everyone told WN the disagreement must
be resolved, but nothing has happened.  If it's not settled in
the next couple of weeks the Spring planning session will slip by
and an invaluable science advisory apparatus will be lost.  

2. FREE ENERGY: PERPETUAL MOTION SCAMS ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH. 
In 1999, I went to Columbus, Ohio for ABC News to witness Dennis
Lee demonstrate a permanent-magnet motor that was "more than 200%
efficient."  Actually, he didn't really demonstrate it.  He stuck 
a magnet on the side of a steel file cabinet; turning to the
audience he asked, "How long do you think that magnet will stay
there?"  He answered his own question, "Forever.  That's infinite
energy."  Don't laugh, this week, Patent 6,362,718 was issued for
a "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator" that "extracts energy
from a permanent magnet with energy-replenishing from the active
vacuum."  Already in 2002 we've had the Jasker Power System (WN
25 Jan 02), Chukanov Quantum Energy (WN 8 Feb 02), Bubble Fusion
(WN 15 Mar 02), and now a permanent magnet motor.

3. DATA QUALITY ACT: THIS ONE COULD CUT BOTH WAYS. The Data
Quality Act consists of 27 lines buried in a huge appropriations
bill.  It was passed a year ago, and it doesn't take effect until
Oct 1, but it's powerful medicine.  Among other things, according
to the Federal Register, agencies must create mechanisms allowing
"persons to seek and obtain correction of information" maintained
by the agency.  The prime target of the law, which was written
with the help of industry lawyers, is the Environmental
Protection Agency.  The law could tie up EPA regulations for
years.  But other targets could also be vulnerable.  The Pentagon
is required to carry out environmental impact studies on missile
defense tests for an area stretching from California and Alaska
to Hawaii.  It may be possible to tie up those studies for years.

4. LIE DETECTORS: FBI EXPANDS THE USE OF POLYGRAPH TESTS. In the
wake of the Hanssen spy case, the FBI began testing other agents. 
So far, seven flunked.  But the FBI says they're not suspects. 
After all, the polygraph has never uncovered a single spy.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 08:54:08 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:45:10
-0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Apr 02   Washington, DC 
>
[snip]
>2. FREE ENERGY: PERPETUAL MOTION SCAMS ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH. 
>In 1999, I went to Columbus, Ohio for ABC News to witness Dennis
>Lee demonstrate a permanent-magnet motor that was "more than 200%
>efficient."  Actually, he didn't really demonstrate it.  He stuck 
>a magnet on the side of a steel file cabinet; turning to the
>audience he asked, "How long do you think that magnet will stay
>there?"  He answered his own question, "Forever.  That's infinite
>energy."  Don't laugh, this week, Patent 6,362,718 was issued for
>a "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator" that "extracts energy
>from a permanent magnet with energy-replenishing from the active
>vacuum."  Already in 2002 we've had the Jasker Power System (WN
>25 Jan 02), Chukanov Quantum Energy (WN 8 Feb 02), Bubble Fusion
>(WN 15 Mar 02), and now a permanent magnet motor.

Bob is slipping. The MEG isn't a motor.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 15:44:35 2002
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 18:42:01 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Good Cringley column
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This is off topic, but this Robert X. Cringley (pen name) has been mainly 
right about computers & high tech for 20 years, and I think he hits the 
mark in this week's column. See:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020404.html

His book "Accidental Empires" is a hoot.

- Jed

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:45:10
> -0800:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Apr 02   Washington, DC
> >
> [snip]
> >2. FREE ENERGY: PERPETUAL MOTION SCAMS ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH.
> >In 1999, I went to Columbus, Ohio for ABC News to witness Dennis
> >Lee demonstrate a permanent-magnet motor that was "more than 200%
> >efficient."  Actually, he didn't really demonstrate it.  He stuck
> >a magnet on the side of a steel file cabinet; turning to the
> >audience he asked, "How long do you think that magnet will stay
> >there?"  He answered his own question, "Forever.  That's infinite
> >energy."  Don't laugh, this week, Patent 6,362,718 was issued for
> >a "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator" that "extracts energy
> >from a permanent magnet with energy-replenishing from the active
> >vacuum."  Already in 2002 we've had the Jasker Power System (WN
> >25 Jan 02), Chukanov Quantum Energy (WN 8 Feb 02), Bubble Fusion
> >(WN 15 Mar 02), and now a permanent magnet motor.
>
> Bob is slipping. The MEG isn't a motor.

and bubble fusion is not perpetual motion.  Bob does not engage in
facts, instead uses emotion laden words to make his point, which is
"nothing new is possible".  His problem can be viewed as a mental
problem, being the opposite of schizophrenia.  People having
schizophrenia believe things that are not present, while people
suffering from parkzophrenia do not believe things that are present.

Ed

>
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:51 2002
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: voice recognition
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:45:03 +0700
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Anyone here recommend a voice recognition software ?

thanx

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 19:23:20 2002
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March 04, 2002

  And I believe he holds a tenured professor's position at an university
beside his
APS function. So much for higher education.
  There was, a short while ago, a respected, tenured professor in the
L.A. area who became infected with  the collecting bug. She saved
everything in and outside her house. Neighbours complained of the
spillover eyesore.. She ended up disappearing after her house was lost
to authorities.

  Perhaps the idea of term limits should not apply just to politicians.

-ak-

Edmund Storms wrote:

> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> > In reply to  Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:45:10
> > -0800:
> > Hi,
> > [snip]
> > >WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Apr 02   Washington, DC
> > >
> > [snip]
> > >2. FREE ENERGY: PERPETUAL MOTION SCAMS ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH.
> > >In 1999, I went to Columbus, Ohio for ABC News to witness Dennis
> > >Lee demonstrate a permanent-magnet motor that was "more than 200%
> > >efficient."  Actually, he didn't really demonstrate it.  He stuck
> > >a magnet on the side of a steel file cabinet; turning to the
> > >audience he asked, "How long do you think that magnet will stay
> > >there?"  He answered his own question, "Forever.  That's infinite
> > >energy."  Don't laugh, this week, Patent 6,362,718 was issued for
> > >a "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator" that "extracts energy
> > >from a permanent magnet with energy-replenishing from the active
> > >vacuum."  Already in 2002 we've had the Jasker Power System (WN
> > >25 Jan 02), Chukanov Quantum Energy (WN 8 Feb 02), Bubble Fusion
> > >(WN 15 Mar 02), and now a permanent magnet motor.
> >
> > Bob is slipping. The MEG isn't a motor.
>
> and bubble fusion is not perpetual motion.  Bob does not engage in
> facts, instead uses emotion laden words to make his point, which is
> "nothing new is possible".  His problem can be viewed as a mental
> problem, being the opposite of schizophrenia.  People having
> schizophrenia believe things that are not present, while people
> suffering from parkzophrenia do not believe things that are present.
>
> Ed
>
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robin van Spaandonk
> >
> > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> >
> > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  5 19:32:51 2002
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 22:31:49 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Dragon dictate

On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, xplorer wrote:

> 
> Anyone here recommend a voice recognition software ?
> 
> thanx
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 05:01:38 2002
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Keith wrote:

Thanks for the report, what were the weather conditions
like outside when the ball came thru the closed window?

Hi Keith,

It was a hot summer evening in Ohio a few miles from
Lake Erie.  There was some rain and lots of lightning,
what we call an electricl storm.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 10:49:25 2002
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Subject: Re: voice recognition
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I think Dragon Naturally Speaking, Preferred Edition is the best by far. It 
was recently bought out by ScanSoft, a very good company. See:

http://www.scansoft.com/naturallyspeaking/

A few years ago it was bought by L&H, which dissolved in a dreadful 
business scandal. I was afraid the product might vanish too, but ScanSoft 
should do a good job supporting it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 11:18:22 2002
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Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:15:36 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch
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The other day I proposed building a starship with 100 million rockets. I 
read some papers by Robert Forward and Bernard Haisch, and I plagiarized 
some ideas from them to come up with a more elegant approach -- a sort of 
hybrid. Forward proposed an interstellar ramjet. I do not know whether 
there is enough hydrogen rocket fuel between the stars for this, and it 
would not work with first generation, slow-moving fusion rockets. Haisch 
described rockets pushed by laser or particle beams from Earth. He 
dismisses the idea because the beams would spread out, they might be 
deflected, and feedback would be too difficult over a long distances. I 
combined these two ideas to come up with something a little different.

I propose accelerating a beam of deuterons toward Alpha Centuri. A gigantic 
accelerator located at the edge of the solar system might pump one or two 
kg per minute at a significant fraction of the speed of light. A rocket is 
equipped with a gigantic collector of some sort, probably magnetic I 
suppose. It leaves the solar system and intercepts the beam. It brings the 
deuterium aboard, and uses it for fuel in a pair of fusion rockets located 
some distance on either side of the collector. To solve Haisch's problem, I 
would establish a chain of relay stations along the way to Alpha Centuri. 
Suppose you find the beam can be successfully sent 0.5 light-years, without 
significant problems in feedback, collimation or deflection. You place a 
chain of 8 unmoving relay stations each 0.5 light-years apart, from earth 
to Alpha Centuri. You aim a deuteron beam at the first one. The first relay 
station collects the deuterons. It stores some in a tank, and accelerates 
others, passing them on to the next relay station. A starship flies from 
Earth to Alpha Centuri alongside the chain of relay stations. Whichever 
station the rocket is closest to supplies the rocket with fuel. The 
starship would always be within 0.25 light-years of a station.

You would establish the chain by sending fuel along the chain as each one 
takes up position. After a base was established on a planet at Alpha 
Centuri, fuel could be sent back the other direction. Eventually, each 
relay station might be equipped with dozens or hundreds of accelerator 
beams to allow hundreds of rockets to pass along the chain simultaneously.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 18:45:47 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
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Subject: RE: Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders
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Jed,
	If you only knew......
The Bush administration invited all the registered environmental groups,
including Greenpeace, to the task force. NONE of them showed, and there
are letters of refusal from most.

Get your head out of your ass. 

Your "green" friends have no energy policy, except one, shut down all
industry.

When invited to the task force they do a no show, and you swallow the
news spin without question that the Bush admin only talked to energy
producers.

Besides, if you were in business pour concrete for construction, would
you want to talk to the local pet shop owner on how to deliver your
concrete ?

Get real....

Matthew Rogers



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:24 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders

This hardly qualifies as news, but it does confirm the administration's 
bias in energy policy. That would not be noteworthy, except that the 
administration is trying to cover up this bias. The energy policy 
statements about conservation read like afterthoughts.

- Jed

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/27/business/27ENER.html

QUOTES:

March 27, 2002

Documents Show Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders
By DON VAN NATTA Jr. and NEELA BANERJEE

WASHINGTON, March 26 - As he helped the Bush administration write its 
national energy report last year, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham heard

from more than 100 energy industry executives, trade association leaders

and lobbyists, according to documents released by the Energy Department.

Mr. Abraham did not meet with any representatives of environmental 
organizations or consumer groups, the documents show.

In a press release on Monday night, the Energy Department summarized the

secretary's calendar by saying that Mr. Abraham met with 36 industry 
representatives on task force matters. Most news organizations reported 
that figure today.

But Mr. Abraham actually met with 109 representatives of energy industry

companies and trade associations, according to a comprehensive review of

his daily calendar from late January 2001 to May 17, 2001 . . . Many of
the 
executives were leaders of corporations that were among the most
generous 
financial supporters of President Bush's presidential campaign and the 
Republican Party.


. . . Energy Department officials also pointed out that Mr. Abraham 
occasionally rebuffed energy industry executives. Officials said 23 
requests for meetings from industry leaders were denied. Kenneth L. Lay
and 
Jeffrey K. Skilling, the former top executives of the Enron Corporation
. . 
. were turned away, officials said. But on March 29, 2001, Mr. Abraham
met 
with two other Enron executives, Joe Hartsoe and Linda Robertson.

And Mr. Lay met with Vice President Dick Cheney, who headed the task
force, 
on April 17, 2001, to discuss energy policy and the California energy 
crisis. . . .

. . . Gary Skulnik, a Greenpeace spokesman, said yesterday that "a 
low-level staffer called us on March 22, 2001, and gave us 24 hours to 
provide any input we had on energy policy." The organization decided not
to 
scramble to meet the tight deadline.

"If they were serious about getting input," Mr. Skulnik said, "that was 
certainly not the way to go about it."

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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
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Subject: RE: FWD:  "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 18:05:09 -0800
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Red Mercury

Is a Pseudo Science Art Bell late night call in topic. In other words,
Fear mongering Bunk.

In the rush to create bigger magnitude nuclear weapons, 
Many materials were used to see if in a fusion device, more energy could
be released using other, non-transuranic elements were tested for
releasing fission energy in the presence of a fusion release.

If you want to release energy, the largest ever Nuclear bomb was a
Fission, Fusion Fission device, using depleted uranium as the final
fission energy release. This is in the 100 megaton range. 

Then there is the Fis-Fus-Fis Cobalt bombs, but they were eventually not
used,
As a ground penetrating kiloton range nuclear weapon was preferred to
blast out the commies.

Anyway, ignore the red mercury posts...

Matthew Rogers


-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 9:24 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FWD: "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"

Dear Thomas,
Yours is a good question that can not be answered based on certain
knowledge of
what the government knows.  However, it is possible to answer the
question by
simple logic and experience.

1. First of all a HgO+SbO mixed oxide is not an unstable compound, hence
is not
an explosive, although a few organic compounds of mercury are
explosives.  For
a compound to be an explosive, it must decompose rapidly and produce a
large
amount of gas.  This kind of behavior is impossible with this compound.

2.  If this compound were able to initiate a fusion reaction, then we
would
have very good proof that cold fusion were possible, because that is the
only
mechanism able to produce fusion under these conditions.  All experience
obtained so far shows that even when a fusion reaction is initiated
using cold
fusion, once the lattice is destroyed, the reaction immediately stops.
So,
even if we assume cold fusion is the mechanism, this mechanism can not
produce
a significant explosion.  As is well known, a fusion reaction requires a
large
concentration of tritium to be highly compressed and then held in that
state
long enough for many atoms to react.  A mixed oxide can not do this job,
because the solubility of D or T in the lattice is very small.
Consequently,
even if the oxide were compressed by an explosive reaction, very little
T or D
would be available to react, no matter what the mechanism.

This rumor strikes me as being both nonsense and irresponsible.  More
important, why would such a rumor be started and by whom?

Ed Storms

thomas malloy wrote:

> >FWD:  "The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
> >
> >
> >"The Balance of Terror and the Red Mercury Nightmare"
> >http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/analysis.htm
> >
> >by J.  R.  Nyquist
> >
> >March 26, 2002
> >
> >On Thursday, March 21, WorldNetDaily posted an article from STRATFOR,
a
> >well-connected private intelligence firm. The title of the article
was
> >"Crisis looming between U.S., Russia."
> >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID= 26920
STRATFOR's
> >article deals with CIA Director George Tenet's March 19 testimony
before
> >the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee. According to Tenet, Russia
is
> >hardly a reliable partner in the "war against terror." Instead,
Russia is
> >"the first choice of proliferant states seeking the most advanced
> >technology and training," said Tenet.
> >
> >What the CIA director could not say, and perhaps what makes President
> >George W. Bush so desperately eager to wipe out the regime of Saddam
> >Hussein, is that Russia may have given red mercury fusion technology
to
> >Saddam. According to one of my sources, Iraq possesses "s- megaton"
> >micro-nuclear warheads. These are softball-sized two-megaton fusion
bombs
> >triggered by an irradiated and compressed compound of mercury
antimony
> >oxide. This device doubles the nuclear yield with a hundredfold
reduction
> >of weight. Using heavy hydrogen instead of uranium or plutonium to
fuel its
> >explosive reaction, this hand- held nuclear weapon cannot be detected
by
> >U.S. sensors.
>
> Does anybody know if this is B S? I've never heard of Hg and antimony
> doing something like this.
>
> >
>
> --

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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:00:25 -0800
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James,
	Welcome to the list.

First of all, you are correct, Canada has HUGE oil reserves.
Unfortunately, because they are a Socialist Monarchy,
It is too costly to develop oil in Canada.
The crown owns 100% of all the oil, gas, and mineral resources.
If you won property, you own the right to live there, but not anything
else.

If you are a farmer, your only customer is the Crown, who sets the
prices, controls the transportation, ect..

There is a reason the Hudson Bay Company operate as a monopoly in the
great north, it was specifically incorporated by the Crown in England,
to enrich the pockets of the royalty.

Canada however, sells huge amounts of natural gas to the east coast.

Each province however is "ruled" on a local level with a more powerful
government than the national "federal " level. Each province has
monopoly powers regarding its own resources.

That's why the USA had a treaty with Canada regarding Salmon and Lumber,
and British Columbia province essentially ignored it, and dumped low
price lumber ( which it set the price ) on US markets, putting hundreds
of thousands of people out of work.

Each province then can set its own policy, and they do and act like
their own country.

By law, in the united states, mineral development is pretty much
"finders keepers" 
If you develop it, its yours. You pay a royalty to the government on a
oil development called a "lease" which is essentially a license to drill
and operate. 

On state controlled land, you operate under state rules. 

In Canada, and this is one of the reasons why in 1776 the government of
the US left the monarchy rule, 
The Crown owns it all.

Land grants were made to individuals, the property rights included the
land, but not what the land contained, ie gold, oil, minerals, ect.

Alaska's north slope, is a continuation of a fantastically huge oil
bearing area that circles the globe in the polar regions. This is in
Canada, Russia, Alaska, The North Sea, ( North of England ) ect.

So, in other words,
The us will continue to buy oil from the Middle east, until it runs out,
which it will go back to a barren desert, and then the US will buy from
its new friends the Russians.

When the Russian oil reserves run out in about 800 years, The US will
invade Canada, in payment for WW2 debts by Britain, and control the rest
of the oil.

By then, I expect the cold fusion technology to be released.

Matthew Rogers



-----Original Message-----
From: James Payne [mailto:danewmoon yahoo.ca] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:57 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset
with us

Hullo,

I am new to this list, which prolly means I should not
join into the nice flame wars (ooh, shiny), but I have
a question... why does the world get their Oil from
the Middle East?

Accord to Ralph Klein, King of Alberta, a Canadian
province, Alberta has way more oil than in the middle
east. What better country to develop for than one
that's currency is dropping below the Mexican Peso.
Canada also has some excellent Diamond resources in
Nunuvit, and Northwest Territories, that are only
starting to get developed. So you can stay away from
those African Guerilla Conflicting Tribes Warefare
type problems.

Unfortunately, President Bush is unable to locate
Canada on a map (I am sure that is the reason he is
dealing more with Mexico than us above the 49th
parrell), so most businesses do not seem to be seeing
Canada as a serious venture, other than Exxon-Mobile
(Esso where I live), who has several oil developing
plants throughout Canada.

Heck for some development you do not need to have a
lisence from Canada. Take a look a the case where USA
tested a Nuclear Submarine in the artic oceans within
Canadian National waters. Canada's military did not
even know until it appeared in the newspapers in USA.

Just wondering, thats all.

(Please note, that not even I can keep track of when I
am joking and when I am being serious, so it is hard
for me to expect you to know when I am doing either one.)

=====
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 19:07:46 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:04:27 -0800
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The electrical charge in the "atomic" beam,
 Would cause the molecules to repel each other. 

Simpler to make antimatter.

Matthew Rogers



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] 
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:16 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch

The other day I proposed building a starship with 100 million rockets. I

read some papers by Robert Forward and Bernard Haisch, and I plagiarized

some ideas from them to come up with a more elegant approach -- a sort
of 
hybrid. Forward proposed an interstellar ramjet. I do not know whether 
there is enough hydrogen rocket fuel between the stars for this, and it 
would not work with first generation, slow-moving fusion rockets. Haisch

described rockets pushed by laser or particle beams from Earth. He 
dismisses the idea because the beams would spread out, they might be 
deflected, and feedback would be too difficult over a long distances. I 
combined these two ideas to come up with something a little different.

I propose accelerating a beam of deuterons toward Alpha Centuri. A
gigantic 
accelerator located at the edge of the solar system might pump one or
two 
kg per minute at a significant fraction of the speed of light. A rocket
is 
equipped with a gigantic collector of some sort, probably magnetic I 
suppose. It leaves the solar system and intercepts the beam. It brings
the 
deuterium aboard, and uses it for fuel in a pair of fusion rockets
located 
some distance on either side of the collector. To solve Haisch's
problem, I 
would establish a chain of relay stations along the way to Alpha
Centuri. 
Suppose you find the beam can be successfully sent 0.5 light-years,
without 
significant problems in feedback, collimation or deflection. You place a

chain of 8 unmoving relay stations each 0.5 light-years apart, from
earth 
to Alpha Centuri. You aim a deuteron beam at the first one. The first
relay 
station collects the deuterons. It stores some in a tank, and
accelerates 
others, passing them on to the next relay station. A starship flies from

Earth to Alpha Centuri alongside the chain of relay stations. Whichever 
station the rocket is closest to supplies the rocket with fuel. The 
starship would always be within 0.25 light-years of a station.

You would establish the chain by sending fuel along the chain as each
one 
takes up position. After a base was established on a planet at Alpha 
Centuri, fuel could be sent back the other direction. Eventually, each 
relay station might be equipped with dozens or hundreds of accelerator 
beams to allow hundreds of rockets to pass along the chain
simultaneously.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 19:34:03 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:30:43 -0800
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Jed, again, you don't know how to read or something.

The point of this company, and its ideas, is to recycle the materials.
There is no disposal program with recycling.

Elements that cannot be recycled, can be transmuted with gamma into non
radioactive or short lived radioactive isotopes.

Create a reactor that is safe, and cannot release radionucleides under
any accident scenario.

If you read the design specs,

Nitrogen gas is the coolant, and if you made a great big pile of these
fuel spheres, you would get a big bunch of continuous hot air, kind of
like your arguments.

The "terrorist" boogyman you are hyping does not exist. There is more of
a real threat of a Nation using WMD's against each other, rather than
spent reactor fuel.

Once a poor nation gets cheap ENERGY, and nuclear is cheap, 
It raises the standard of living, making the terrorist more of a threat
to its own country.

Terrorism in the world mainly consists of poor people given explosives
by rich Saudi's .

Go figure.

By the way, if you want to de-fund the rich Saudis' Buy gas at Sincair,
Amaco, or other US refinerys that don't buy Saudi oil.

Oh, I almost forgot.
Half life means that eventually the material disappears.

There is no half life for the Mecury used to make your filling, and the
biggest polluter in the US of mecury in your lakes and rivers, is your
dentist. 

There is no half life to the cyanide used to process your chrome bumper
on your car, or the cadmium on the shelves of your refrigerator. Buy the
way, don't make a smoker our of your fridge, you will give yourselves
cadmium poisoning.

There is no half life to the decay of plastics used to package your
food, but that same packaging makes your food safe to ship, store,
manufacture and eat.

Why don't you define in your life what you are in need of, and the
actual risk, not the imagined, of you living free of the fear you are
putting yourself into.

By the way, wave as you drive by my Oil Guzzling Semi truck, as that is
the only way you get anything you have.

When you can tell the IRS that Liquid Natural Gas should not be taxed
the same as Diesel, you will be having SMOG in your cities from my and
my brethern's truck. 

Maybe someday, I can have a Adams atomic engine in my semi, and only
have to fuel every 2 years, instead of 2 days. 

Kenworth, and Cummins created the perfect generator for the Adams Atomic
engine. It would take heat energy, and convert it into AC.

It exists, All it needs is a heat source, Solar, Gas, Nuclear heat ,
And it makes electicity.

Want the interesting thing ? only 2 moving parts, on magnetic, no loss
bearings. It also creates a cold sink. 

So my new truck will be an direct electic drive, nuclear powered, air
conditioned 2 moving part road warrior.

Actually, it may be a more used engine on the moon or in space. 

Matthew Rogers



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 5:41 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company

Matthew Rogers wrote:

>This seems to be an accurate portrayal of the technology needed to make

>things safe, and not insane.

I think it is insane, and it can never be made safe, for two reasons:

1. Putting hundreds of small uranium fission reactors in the U.S. and
other 
countries would be an open invitation to terrorists. They would attack
one 
or use the uranium for a "dirty bomb."

2. There is no safe or cost effective means to dispose of used fuel
rods. 
Shipping large numbers to a repository would also be an open invitation
to 
terrorists. Ed Storms praises the French and Canadian reactor programs,
but 
France and Canada have no disposal programs. Last I heard, they were
hoping 
Russia or the U.S. would fix their problem. France tried to recycle but
the 
program collapsed.

Any scheme that produces extremely toxic long lived garbage is a bad 
scheme, in my opinion.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 19:52:09 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:48:24 -0800
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Ed, thanks for pointing out our problems are more Political 
Rather than technical or scientific. 

http://www.sunpower.com

Sunpower, partnered with Cummins to develop a 
 
Stirling cycle,Hermetically sealed, Compact, lightweight Non-contact gas
bearings


1. compressed helium as a "working fluid "
2. linear dual nested pistons, on magnetic bearings
   containing rare earth magnets, to make a 
	60 hertz AC high amperage Generator ?

It was tested using Focused solar energy, natural gas, and other heat
sources.

Sunpower, is also progressing to a Naturgas powered cogeneration unit
that you can fit in your home.

http://www.sunpower.com/technology/public.html


The device is deceptive simple, but because of manufacturing tolerances
And losses to having to hand tune the generator, it lost some of its
"theoretical" efficiencies.

The neat thing is, 
If you heat one end, the other cools, and it creates electricity.

It would make the "turbine" part of the Adams generator unnecessary.


Matthew Rogers



-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:49 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company

Matthew, I agree with you, nuclear energy is better in many respects
compared to fossil fuel.  If the US had adopted a safe and efficient
reactor design like France and Canada, if we had made a competent effort
to process the fuel rods and dispose of the resulting radioactive
material, if we had done this using the philosophy that the job needed
to
be done right rather than cheap, I would also argue for more nuclear
energy.   However, this was not done and, as a result, we have a very
dangerous mess.  Furthermore, the philosophy applied by business in this
country will guarantee that any new technology will always result in a
mess, which will only be cleaned up after a sufficient fraction of the
population is killed or injured.  This being the situation, I think that
any further development of nuclear energy in the US, no matter how well
argued or how good the design looks on paper, would be very unwise.
Instead, we should look to conservation and renewable sources of energy
as
our salvation, not the least of which is cold fusion and zero-point
energy.  The very fact that the US has fought these latter energy
sources
demonstrates that we as a country are not wise enough to handle
something
so dangerous as fission energy.

Ed

Matthew Rogers wrote:

> Vor,
>         After reading this web page, its articles and links, I can
only
> conclude,
> Hurrah, finally somebody who knows what their talking about.
>
> This seems to be an accurate portrayal of the technology needed to
make
> things safe, and not insane.
>
> Matthew Rogers
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 1:29 PM
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
>
> This is insane, but interesting:
>
> http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html
>
> "Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. is a feisty company with a couple of
> governing
> thoughts." "A couple of governing thoughts" means they are obsessed,
> like
> CF fanatics, only they want to use uranium fission.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 20:26:50 2002
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Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:19:46 -0500 (EST)
From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are upset with us
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Socialist Government, bah! That might have been  true
before 1981, but since then most of the "crown
corporations" have been sold to the private sector. Of
course saying that, is completely gazing over the fact
that most of these people have been dolts, and then
the Canadian Government gave these companies funding,
so they would not be bought up by American companies
(So officially, they are not crown corporations).

As for the monarchy bit, I think you give Ralph Klien
and Jean Cretien too much credit, or.. were you
refering to Britian? Britian has a lot of influence
over Canadian policies, the only thing is Britain
never uses that influence. That would be like the
Canadian Senate not passing through legislation (They
get paid hundreds of thousands dollars a year to keep
rubber stamps warm... its a good thing they Canadian
Dollars :-).

About the most socialist things about Canada are a lot
of stuff that goes into the category of Welfare
Capitalism.

And some of worlds top ten richest men live and
operate in Canada, so it cannot be that hard to get
successful here

As for land grants, I cannot argue there, so you still
may be right. I am just wondering how companies like
Exxon-Mobile (Esso), could get such nice operations up
here. Oh well, I should research it more... its not
like King Ralph was not drunk when he made these
claims (who is an extremely Conservative Premier).

--- Matthew Rogers <matt accelnet.net> wrote:
> James,
> 	Welcome to the list.
> 
> First of all, you are correct, Canada has HUGE oil
> reserves.
> Unfortunately, because they are a Socialist
> Monarchy,
> It is too costly to develop oil in Canada.
> The crown owns 100% of all the oil, gas, and mineral
> resources.
> If you won property, you own the right to live
> there, but not anything
> else.
> 
> If you are a farmer, your only customer is the
> Crown, who sets the
> prices, controls the transportation, ect..
> 
> There is a reason the Hudson Bay Company operate as
> a monopoly in the
> great north, it was specifically incorporated by the
> Crown in England,
> to enrich the pockets of the royalty.
> 
> Canada however, sells huge amounts of natural gas to
> the east coast.
> 
> Each province however is "ruled" on a local level
> with a more powerful
> government than the national "federal " level. Each
> province has
> monopoly powers regarding its own resources.
> 
> That's why the USA had a treaty with Canada
> regarding Salmon and Lumber,
> and British Columbia province essentially ignored
> it, and dumped low
> price lumber ( which it set the price ) on US
> markets, putting hundreds
> of thousands of people out of work.
> 
> Each province then can set its own policy, and they
> do and act like
> their own country.
> 
> By law, in the united states, mineral development is
> pretty much
> "finders keepers" 
> If you develop it, its yours. You pay a royalty to
> the government on a
> oil development called a "lease" which is
> essentially a license to drill
> and operate. 
> 
> On state controlled land, you operate under state
> rules. 
> 
> In Canada, and this is one of the reasons why in
> 1776 the government of
> the US left the monarchy rule, 
> The Crown owns it all.
> 
> Land grants were made to individuals, the property
> rights included the
> land, but not what the land contained, ie gold, oil,
> minerals, ect.
> 
> Alaska's north slope, is a continuation of a
> fantastically huge oil
> bearing area that circles the globe in the polar
> regions. This is in
> Canada, Russia, Alaska, The North Sea, ( North of
> England ) ect.
> 
> So, in other words,
> The us will continue to buy oil from the Middle
> east, until it runs out,
> which it will go back to a barren desert, and then
> the US will buy from
> its new friends the Russians.
> 
> When the Russian oil reserves run out in about 800
> years, The US will
> invade Canada, in payment for WW2 debts by Britain,
> and control the rest
> of the oil.
> 
> By then, I expect the cold fusion technology to be
> released.
> 
> Matthew Rogers
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Payne [mailto:danewmoon yahoo.ca] 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:57 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and
> why people are upset
> with us
> 
> Hullo,
> 
> I am new to this list, which prolly means I should
> not
> join into the nice flame wars (ooh, shiny), but I
> have
> a question... why does the world get their Oil from
> the Middle East?
> 
> Accord to Ralph Klein, King of Alberta, a Canadian
> province, Alberta has way more oil than in the
> middle
> east. What better country to develop for than one
> that's currency is dropping below the Mexican Peso.
> Canada also has some excellent Diamond resources in
> Nunuvit, and Northwest Territories, that are only
> starting to get developed. So you can stay away from
> those African Guerilla Conflicting Tribes Warefare
> type problems.
> 
> Unfortunately, President Bush is unable to locate
> Canada on a map (I am sure that is the reason he is
> dealing more with Mexico than us above the 49th
> parrell), so most businesses do not seem to be
> seeing
> Canada as a serious venture, other than Exxon-Mobile
> (Esso where I live), who has several oil developing
> plants throughout Canada.
> 
> Heck for some development you do not need to have a
> lisence from Canada. Take a look a the case where
> USA
> tested a Nuclear Submarine in the artic oceans
> within
> Canadian National waters. Canada's military did not
> even know until it appeared in the newspapers in
> USA.
> 
> Just wondering, thats all.
> 
> (Please note, that not even I can keep track of when
> I
> am joking and when I am being serious, so it is hard
> for me to expect you to know when I am doing either
> one.)


=====
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The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

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From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <001201c1dde0$edc8b0d0$7009fea9 bear>
Subject: Re: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:30:15 -0500
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How about a magnon laser, inductively coupled with the ship's rear?

for those unaware of what a magnon laser is, it's a solid ferric core with
its coupling coils run in an RF range.  A special property of the set-up is
magnetic precession of the atoms of the material, aka magnetic spin.  It
propagates energy longitudinally, much more so than radially.

I'm considering the feasability of a metglas cylindrical hollow core coupled
with a cylindrical crystalline lasing medium and accompanying mirrors.
These mirrors would have to be both RF and regular-light responsive as
mirrors and mirror/transmitters, leaving some tough design challenges.  A
good start might be niobium-content lenses with aluminum/silver layers to
create a clear yet conductive hybrid such as the demonstration photo on Don
Adsitt's site of an aluminum translucent
plate(www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com).  Nonlinearities abound:
optical-to-light inductive coupling for example.

for the sake of the group, I'm attempting to comb my messages for erroneous
things in postings nowadays.  Cheers.

Ryan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch


> The electrical charge in the "atomic" beam,
>  Would cause the molecules to repel each other.
>
> Simpler to make antimatter.
>
> Matthew Rogers
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:16 AM
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch
>
> The other day I proposed building a starship with 100 million rockets. I
>
> read some papers by Robert Forward and Bernard Haisch, and I plagiarized
>
> some ideas from them to come up with a more elegant approach -- a sort
> of
> hybrid. Forward proposed an interstellar ramjet. I do not know whether
> there is enough hydrogen rocket fuel between the stars for this, and it
> would not work with first generation, slow-moving fusion rockets. Haisch
>
> described rockets pushed by laser or particle beams from Earth. He
> dismisses the idea because the beams would spread out, they might be
> deflected, and feedback would be too difficult over a long distances. I
> combined these two ideas to come up with something a little different.
>
> I propose accelerating a beam of deuterons toward Alpha Centuri. A
> gigantic
> accelerator located at the edge of the solar system might pump one or
> two
> kg per minute at a significant fraction of the speed of light. A rocket
> is
> equipped with a gigantic collector of some sort, probably magnetic I
> suppose. It leaves the solar system and intercepts the beam. It brings
> the
> deuterium aboard, and uses it for fuel in a pair of fusion rockets
> located
> some distance on either side of the collector. To solve Haisch's
> problem, I
> would establish a chain of relay stations along the way to Alpha
> Centuri.
> Suppose you find the beam can be successfully sent 0.5 light-years,
> without
> significant problems in feedback, collimation or deflection. You place a
>
> chain of 8 unmoving relay stations each 0.5 light-years apart, from
> earth
> to Alpha Centuri. You aim a deuteron beam at the first one. The first
> relay
> station collects the deuterons. It stores some in a tank, and
> accelerates
> others, passing them on to the next relay station. A starship flies from
>
> Earth to Alpha Centuri alongside the chain of relay stations. Whichever
> station the rocket is closest to supplies the rocket with fuel. The
> starship would always be within 0.25 light-years of a station.
>
> You would establish the chain by sending fuel along the chain as each
> one
> takes up position. After a base was established on a planet at Alpha
> Centuri, fuel could be sent back the other direction. Eventually, each
> relay station might be equipped with dozens or hundreds of accelerator
> beams to allow hundreds of rockets to pass along the chain
> simultaneously.
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  7 00:03:09 2002
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 03:02:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Apr 05, 2002]
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>
>APS function. So much for higher education.



>   There was, a short while ago, a respected, tenured professor in the
>L.A. area who became infected with  the collecting bug. She saved

I helped clean out Otto Schmitt's house after it was condemned.

>   Perhaps the idea of term limits should not apply just to politicians.


>
I think that's a good idea.

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  7 00:03:11 2002
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From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Good Cringley column
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 01:59:23 -0600
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 18:42:01 -0500, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>This is off topic, but this Robert X. Cringley (pen name) has been mainly 
>right about computers & high tech for 20 years, and I think he hits the 
>mark in this week's column. See:
>
>http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020404.html
>
>His book "Accidental Empires" is a hoot.

The current "Cringley" isn't the same one that wrote the book.  IMO,
the current one isn't worth reading (at least, the column in Infoworld
isn't).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:35 2002
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 03:02:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: Blame Canada or: Re: Oil and morality, and why people are
 upset with us
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>James,
>	Welcome to the list.
>
>First of all, you are correct, Canada has HUGE oil reserves.
>Unfortunately, because they are a Socialist Monarchy,
>It is too costly to develop oil in Canada.
>The crown owns 100% of all the oil, gas, and mineral resources.
>If you won property, you own the right to live there, but not anything
>else.

Are you saying that the English Monarchy owns all the minerals in 
Canada? That theory is great except that they have developed lots of 
mineral reserves. As I understand it, we in the north centeral states 
get most of our oil from the north.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  7 11:22:37 2002
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http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/tornado/endiceage.html

"It is my hypothesis that the ice cap in North America was deliberately
melted by a technological civilisation with the deliberate intent of
moving the axis of rotation into the middle of the arctic ocean and
bringing the Ice Age to an abrupt end. Siberia and the coastal plains
were sacrificed in order to make the continents habitable."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  7 13:35:10 2002
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Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 16:31:53 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Matthew Rogers <matt accelnet.net>
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Subject: stirling  Engines, Inc. . . . a
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	Dear Folks,

	Just a slight correct to the post, below, and a comment, and. of
course, the questions, Please:


On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Matthew Rogers wrote:

(this is an abstract of the post, the comment appears, in context, below)


	"...... The neat thing is, If you heat one end, the other cools,
and it creates electricity.  ....." 


	Correction:

	The quote, above, may lead one to think that one end to the device

	GETS COOL.   The reality is that the user or operator MUST COOL
the not hot end, or provide means for air or water cooling.

	Comments:
	
	NOTE:    This is a GENERAL COMMENT on Thermal systems and is NOT a
			comment of, on or about Matthew Rogers. 
	
	(A)	There are certain thermal systems which DO get cool.  
	  This just does  not happen to be one of them.


	(B)	Stirling is one of several types of thermal engines.  
		
		This is a wonderful field of study and also of applied
		   sciences. 

	(C)	A very interesting part of this area of work, Thermal
		  System used on Earth  has to do with what can and can
			NOT be done in Theory and in Practice.
	
		FIRST: 	Theory is a supposition that needs to be verified.
		Second:	Physical Laws of Thermodynamics are Frequently
		  	  used by persons trying to get some point across.

		In ALL cases of LAWS OF PHYSICS there are certain
guidelines and factors which are presumed to be, or TAKEN FOR GRANTED to
be, in place, active, will be obeyed.
	
	I, for one, have not recently seen a simple and well put list of
the criteria whereby the Laws of Thermodynamics are applied, interpreted,
or otherwise used.

	Questions:  Please

	Example:

	Are these laws valid or NOT valid in:

	Sealed systems?  Not Sealed systems?
	At STP?	not at STP?
	Above some range of temperatures?
	Below some range of temperatures?
	



On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Matthew Rogers wrote:

> Ed, thanks for pointing out our problems are more Political 
> Rather than technical or scientific. 
> 
> http://www.sunpower.com
> 
> Sunpower, partnered with Cummins to develop a 
>  
> Stirling cycle,Hermetically sealed, Compact, lightweight Non-contact gas
> bearings
> 
> 
> 1. compressed helium as a "working fluid "
> 2. linear dual nested pistons, on magnetic bearings
>    containing rare earth magnets, to make a 
> 	60 hertz AC high amperage Generator ?
> 
> It was tested using Focused solar energy, natural gas, and other heat
> sources.
> 
> Sunpower, is also progressing to a Naturgas powered cogeneration unit
> that you can fit in your home.
> 
> http://www.sunpower.com/technology/public.html
> 
> 
> The device is deceptive simple, but because of manufacturing tolerances
> And losses to having to hand tune the generator, it lost some of its
> "theoretical" efficiencies.
> 
> The neat thing is, 
> If you heat one end, the other cools, and it creates electricity.
> 
> It would make the "turbine" part of the Adams generator unnecessary.
> 
> 
> Matthew Rogers
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  7 13:41:23 2002
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To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Laws of Thermodynamics
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	PLEASE:

	Dear Vo,

	Can someone please point a reference that decribes the criteria
and-or parameters under which the Laws of Thermodynamic operate?

	Example: 

	Q:  Are there certain temperature ranges which are not considered
		apropos?
	Q:	Pressure range or ranges?

	Q:	Sealed, not sealed systems, vessels, containers?

	Q: 	Scale or size?

	Q:	PLEASE, Specifically Where can we go to find the
		 considered definitions and operational parameters.

					Thanks,


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 08:20:18 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders
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Matthew Rogers wrote:

>Jed,
>         If you only knew......
>The Bush administration invited all the registered environmental groups, 
>including Greenpeace, to the task force. NONE of them showed, and  there 
>are letters of refusal from most.

Please note the quotes from the article: a Greenpeace official said, ". . . 
'a low-level staffer called us on March 22, 2001, and gave us 24 hours to 
provide any input we had on energy policy.' The organization decided not to 
scramble to meet the tight deadline." If that is true, it can hardly be 
considered an invitation. I think it may be true, since the administration 
has not disputed Greenpeace's account.


>Get your head out of your ass.

Please refrain from using that sort of language on this forum.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 08:22:18 2002
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:19:36 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Good Cringley column
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

>The current "Cringley" isn't the same one that wrote the book.

Yes, he is. That's a sort of an urban myth, or a joke, based on the fact 
that he was the third writer assigned that name at Infoworld, and he later 
sued them to keep it. See:

http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/summer96/0088.html

(I assume this is not a myth, but I wouldn't put it past Cringley to invent 
this, as well.)

His writing style is inimitable, and recognizable.


>IMO, the current one isn't worth reading (at least, the column in 
>Infoworld isn't).

I have not seen Infoworld in a long time. If they are still running that 
they most have someone else wearing the Santa Claus suit.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 08:37:24 2002
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:36:51 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
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Matthew Rogers wrote:

>The point of this company, and its ideas, is to recycle the materials.
>There is no disposal program with recycling.

If fissionable materials could be recycled in a safe and cost effective 
manner, that would make large scale reactors viable too, not only small 
ones. As far as I know there is way to recycle fuel, despite billions of 
dollars spent on breeder reactors of various types.


>The "terrorist" boogyman you are hyping does not exist.

What does this mean? Surely, if a terrorist detonated a large explosion in 
heart of an Adams Atomic Engine, and spread the uranium over a large area, 
that would cause major problems! Even if it did not kill many people, 
cleaning it up would be fantastically expensive, if not impossible.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 08:50:49 2002
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:46:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Another starship design, plagiarized from Forward & Haisch
  - and Bussard
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Gene Mallove tells me that Robert Bussard came up with the interstellar 
ramjet idea. He says several others have discussed beamed fuel and reaction 
mass. I am sure many people thought of it before I did.

Gene was under the impression that establishing a chain of relay stations 
would require a lot of time. I do not think so. The first relay ship in the 
chain would arrive as quickly as any starship under maximum acceleration 
could, and it could carry a payload too. Suppose it takes a chain of 8 
relay ships. You establish the chain in the solar system, feeding fuel from 
one to the other. They all take off simultaneously, like an uncoiling 
spring. The first one in the chain moves fastest, and crosses the distance 
in, say, 8 years. The last one goes only 1/8th of the distance in 8 years. 
They are never more than 1/2 light year apart.

Someone here, and many people elsewhere, claimed that fusion does not have 
the energy density to allow interstellar travel, and the only way to 
accomplish this is to use antimatter. That is the view I wish to challenge. 
Producing and containing a large mass of antimatter (antimass?) would be 
extremely difficult, even with unlimited solar power. No one can presently 
imagine how it could be done. In contrast, the technology I described is at 
least imaginable with incrementally improved versions of what we now have. 
I think it could probably be done by humans in 500 to 1000 years or so. It 
might take a chain of 50 or 100 ships instead of only 8, but building 100 
spacecraft in a thousand years will cost no more than building the 
transcontinental railroad did in 1867, and probably much less. Perhaps 
inflight refueling of spacecraft will be used within the solar system. The 
technique may be developed gradually, at a profit, for hundreds of years 
before it is used to cross interstellar space.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 08:51:58 2002
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:51:26 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
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 m>
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I wrote: "As far as I know there is way to recycle fuel, despite billions 
of dollars spent on breeder reactors of various types. . . ."

Meant "no way." Sorry.

As always, let me add that there is a great deal I do not know about. 
Perhaps these Adams Motor People have come up with a viable method of 
recycling. Sometimes a small organization beats the large ones.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 09:43:38 2002
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Subject: r.i.p. John Pierce
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John Robinson Pierce died on April 5, 2002. He was a Renaissance man. At 
AT&T he contributed to early research in the semiconductors, and coined the 
term "transistor." He developed the first satellite communications systems 
ECHO and TELSTAR. He pioneered electronic music, and authored books on 
music theory. He wrote science fiction under the pen name J. J. Coupling. 
After retiring as executive director of research in communications at Bell 
Labs in 1971, he became a professor of engineering at Caltech and the Jet 
Propulsion Laboratory, and he taught music at Stanford University.

An oral history interview:

http://www.ieee.org/organizations/history_center/oral_histories/transcripts/pierce.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 12:31:15 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Sonofusion company: Impulse Devices Technology, Inc.
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See:

http://www.impulsedevices.com

They even call it SonoFusion. See:

http://www.impulsedevices.com/technology.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 13:13:06 2002
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:09:33 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> See:
> 
> http://www.impulsedevices.com
> 
> They even call it SonoFusion. See:
> 
> http://www.impulsedevices.com/technology.html

Yeah, this is Ross Tessian's company.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:26 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Time travel?
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 17:19:05 -0400
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Hmmm....

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_travel_idea_fir
es_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

Sending a neutron back in time, a vortexian notion huh?
When he perfects this thing the commodities markets will tremble...

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 14:38:36 2002
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> > http://www.impulsedevices.com
> >
>
>
>Yeah, this is Ross Tessian's company.

Yeah, okay. I made that connection after posting the message. Anyway, it is 
an interesting web site.

I see they call plasma fusion "hot fusion," and they make no reference to 
cold fusion. Fah! Well, I suppose any mention of CF would frighten off 
investors.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 15:20:40 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 18:19:44 EDT
Subject: Re: Time travel?
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Hi All - 

I know Dr. Mallett pretty well, and I'm a former commodities reporter for Dow 
Jones.  We've been talking for about a year, on and off for a science fiction 
story I'm writing, as well as a straight journalism piece.  He's also been on 
the cover of New Scientist and other publications.

In brief, the good news for markets is that time travel in Mallett's view, 
can only occur between when a portal is first opened and dates later.  You 
can open it tonight and get a message or maybe even visitor from Thursday, 
but don't worry about having this past weekend altered.

Also, such travel may occur diagonally between parallel universes in a 
multiverse, so again, our commodities situations (which respond to minutia as 
well as broader issues of reserves) might be wholly divorced from those of 
another timeline.

Now, I don't know if that means anyone on this list group is planning to buy 
oil after all...

Erik

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Time travel?
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Quote from article:

But Alan Guth, a physics professor at MIT who has studied the theory of 
time machines, says he isn't sure it's even theoretically possible to 
travel through time. As far as whether time travel is a possibility, he 
says: ''Definitely not within our lifetimes.''

Um . . . If it can be done and you can travel back far enough, it will be 
done within EVERYONE'S lifetimes. For example, suppose someone invents the 
machine in the year 3002 and brings one back 1000 years . . .

Of course in that case it would already by done, wouldn't it? And no one 
has showed up as far as I know. As Arthur Clarke wrote, "The most 
convincing argument against time travel is the remarkable scarcity of time 
travelers. However unpleasant our age may appear to the future, surely one 
would expect scholars and students to visit us, if such a thing were 
possible at all. Though they might try to disguise themselves, accidents 
would be bound to happen . . ."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 18:14:10 2002
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Subject: re:Time travel
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 20:21:49 -0400
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Why does this not permit me to make a killing on the
commodities market? If I know what's going to happen just
10 minutes from now I'll be a multimillionaire within
a month or two...

Actually, the whole notion seems to founder on the
fact that you can decide NOT to turn the machine
on after you receive the message, does everything
change then to match this event? Last nite our
local PBS station reran "the Lathe of Heaven" and
I was reminded of this research (chuckle).

Perhaps Eric can provide us with more experimental
details of the apparatus? The article I posted was
a puff piece for the most part, can you rustle up
some links?

One thing I wonder about; is the researcher claiming
simultaneity is time travel? This fits with the notions
of GR but hardly counts IMHO. Such an experiment would
prove to be useless for communicating with the future.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 21:03:10 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: AtomicRod aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: atomic engines
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 00:01:00 -0400
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On Wednesday 03 April 2002 05:29, you wrote:
> I think you may be confusing your terminology. Fusion is the merging of two
> light nuclei; fission is the splitting of one heavy nucleus.
>
> No one has ever been able to get a fusion reaction to produce more power
> than is required to get the reaction started outside of thermonuclear
> weapons where the initiator of the reaction is a fission bomb
>
> Fission, on the other hand is easy, cheap, readily available, clean, and
> has almost 60 years worth of operational history with high power output
> machines.
>
> Fission rockets are one of our interest areas. We have no interest at all
> in fusion technology.
>
> Rod Adams

Rod,

   You should really reconsider that.  Fission power sources can be
used to power fusion rockets.  The fusion does not have to be self
sustaining.  It just has to fuse reasonably well in the rocket engine
in order to generate enormous pressures in light gases in small volumes
in order to get maximum exhaust temperature and velocity.  This uses
small masses accelerated to great speeds if done right.  Say we use
a fusion mirror device that 'leaks' at one end.  The fission generator
powers superconducting magnets along the discharge tube to  
further accelerate the discharge from the spheromak at the other
end that generates the flow in the tube.  collisions in the tube raise
the energy level of the plasma in the tube and further ionize it.  When
it 'escapes' at the discharge end (nozzles), one could aim for a 
terminal velocity of .8c in a negligible mass for maximum efficiency
in reaction mass consumption.  This way we take advantage of both
technologies to the best of our present ability.
         If only the Podkletnov/Li devices
would work, they could be gravity/acceleration moderators to lessen
the effect of the 'g' forces on the occupants.  Ideally the ship could
be designed for a max g internally of 1.5 to 2g while the actual
derivative of the velocity could be any arbitrary amount subject to the
limitations of the system to generate power.  Since the exhaust veloc
is always relative to the ship, if said ship was translating space at
any speed, its acceleration should never vary even as the ship velocity
approached and exceeded 'c', no matter what quasi-religious fools say.
That light speed 'barrier' is made to be broken just like the  old 'sound'
barrier was.

Standing Bear
rockcast earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 21:14:16 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: Laws of Thermodynamics
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0400
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On Sunday 07 April 2002 16:39, John Schnurer wrote:
> PLEASE:
>
> 	Dear Vo,
>
> 	Can someone please point a reference that decribes the criteria
> and-or parameters under which the Laws of Thermodynamic operate?
>
> 	Example:
>
> 	Q:  Are there certain temperature ranges which are not considered
> 		apropos?
> 	Q:	Pressure range or ranges?
>
> 	Q:	Sealed, not sealed systems, vessels, containers?
>
> 	Q: 	Scale or size?
>
> 	Q:	PLEASE, Specifically Where can we go to find the
> 		 considered definitions and operational parameters.
>
> 					Thanks,

lot of impressive math, including cyclic integrals and complex
Carnot cycles.  Bottom line is that you never get out of a system
what you put into it..........
     .......entropy of a system tends to maximize!
Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 21:38:40 2002
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 00:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Time travel?
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Whoa... this is a little bit big of a topic.

My response follows inline.
--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
wrote:
> Quote from article:
> 
> But Alan Guth, a physics professor at MIT who has
> studied the theory of 
> time machines, says he isn't sure it's even
> theoretically possible to 
> travel through time. As far as whether time travel
> is a possibility, he 
> says: ''Definitely not within our lifetimes.''

That is from several theories, the last one I heard
about using Antimatter to survive a wormhole.

> Um . . . If it can be done and you can travel back
> far enough, it will be 
> done within EVERYONE'S lifetimes. For example,
> suppose someone invents the 
> machine in the year 3002 and brings one back 1000
> years . . .

That brings up a point. If the invention is already
invented, why would they invent it in 3002?

--------

As for going back in time and making all sorts of
money, I am not sure if that would work. Nobody is. I
doubt that you can go back in time and effect a
decision you made, cause why you would you go back in
time and change it once you've made the right
decision? Creating a nice endless loop.

As for visitors from the future, ever wonder why there
is always are several busloads of Oriental people at
every single National, Provincial, and State Park?
What about the endless supply of other tourists? :)

--
James

=====
__   __ _____ ___ ____    __    __   ____   ____
\ \ / // ___// _ | __ \   | \   | | /      /  _ \
 \ v // /__ / /_|| |_\ |  | |\  | | \__    | | | |
  / // /__ / ___ | ___ \  | | \ | | /      | |_| |
 /_//____//_/   ||_\  \_\ |_|  \|_| \____  \_____/
The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  8 22:17:16 2002
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From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Good Cringley column
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 00:16:45 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

Okay, where does he publish his current writings?

On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:19:36 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>>The current "Cringley" isn't the same one that wrote the book.
>
>Yes, he is. That's a sort of an urban myth, or a joke, based on the fact 
>that he was the third writer assigned that name at Infoworld, and he later 
>sued them to keep it. See:

I guess I should have been more specific.  The "Cringley" column
that's in Infoworld isn't the same guy.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 00:46:35 2002
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Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 08:41:00 +0100
From: Robert Chambers <robert.chambers baesystems.com>
Subject: Re: Time travel?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jed wrote:

>Of course in that case it would already by done, wouldn't it? And no one 
>has showed up as far as I know. As Arthur Clarke wrote, "The most 
>convincing argument against time travel is the remarkable scarcity of time 
>travelers. However unpleasant our age may appear to the future, surely one 
>would expect scholars and students to visit us, if such a thing were 
>possible at all. Though they might try to disguise themselves, accidents 
>would be bound to happen . . ."

Some UFOlogists (like Paul Davenport and Jenny Randles) have proposed
that this is exactly what UFOs are: our distant descendants come back to visit.
It would certainly explain their interest in us, their humanoid appearance and
their command of our languages.

Then there are also the alleged "time-slips" such as the famous case of the
two ladies at Versailles who seemed to go back over a hundred years.

Rob



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 06:52:45 2002
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

>Hi Jed,
>
>Okay, where does he publish his current writings?

See:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020404.html

- JR



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On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 12:01:00AM -0400, Standing Bear wrote:
=20
> Rod,
>=20
>    You should really reconsider that.  Fission power sources can be
> used to power fusion rockets.  The fusion does not have to be self
> sustaining.  It just has to fuse reasonably well in the rocket engine
> in order to generate enormous pressures in light gases in small volumes
> in order to get maximum exhaust temperature and velocity.  This uses
> small masses accelerated to great speeds if done right.  Say we use
> a fusion mirror device that 'leaks' at one end.  The fission generator
> powers superconducting magnets along the discharge tube to =20
> further accelerate the discharge from the spheromak at the other
> end that generates the flow in the tube.  collisions in the tube raise
> the energy level of the plasma in the tube and further ionize it.  When
> it 'escapes' at the discharge end (nozzles), one could aim for a=20
> terminal velocity of .8c in a negligible mass for maximum efficiency
> in reaction mass consumption.  This way we take advantage of both
> technologies to the best of our present ability.
>          If only the Podkletnov/Li devices
> would work, they could be gravity/acceleration moderators to lessen
> the effect of the 'g' forces on the occupants.  Ideally the ship could
> be designed for a max g internally of 1.5 to 2g while the actual
> derivative of the velocity could be any arbitrary amount subject to the
> limitations of the system to generate power.  Since the exhaust veloc
> is always relative to the ship, if said ship was translating space at
> any speed, its acceleration should never vary even as the ship velocity
> approached and exceeded 'c', no matter what quasi-religious fools say.
> That light speed 'barrier' is made to be broken just like the  old 'sound'
> barrier was.

Hear hear.  Upon breaking the speed of light relative to the Earth,
we'd expect that we wouldn't be able to communicate electromagnetically
any more.  We had better have made sure that we plotted our velocity
vectors relative to a whole range of other bodies, because we
wouldn't be able to turn around and just head back to the Earth
seeing as we wouldn't be getting any EM signals from it.  We wouldn't
be connected by Lorenz's equations any more.

Joe

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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: MEG Scalar Energy Device Patented - Production Starts Next Year
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Did anyone catch this news item?

    http://rense.com/general21/free.htm

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 09:37:43 2002
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http://www.rense.com/general22/ds.htm

Nuclear Waste Photo-Deactivation
Creator Dies In Car Accident
Press Release
Nuclear Solutions, Inc.
4-8-2  

MERIDIAN, Idaho--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 8, 2002--Nuclear
Solutions, Inc. (OTCBB:NSOL - news) regretfully announces the
death of Dr. Paul M. Brown. 

Dr. Brown was killed on April 7, 2002 in an automobile accident
in Boise, Idaho. He developed the idea for the Company's patented
photoremediation technology for the remediation of nuclear waste
that will now be his legacy. He is survived by his wife and two
children. 

``Our team is saddened by this tragic loss, however, we remain
fully committed to realizing the vision that Dr. Brown inspired
us with. His vision holds the promise of safe and economical
treatment of nuclear waste and the potential for a new generation
of power reactors,'' said John Dempsey, Executive Vice President
and Chief Operating Officer. 

``We have assembled a management and scientific team that is
competent and fully capable of implementing the technology that
Dr. Brown invented as well as our newer acquisitions such as our
GHR tritium removal technology,'' he concluded. 

John Dempsey and Patrick Herda, co-founder and Vice President of
Business Development will direct the company's activities until a
new CEO is appointed by the company's board of directors. Their
efforts will be supported by Dr. Qi Ao, Vice President of
Research and Development and Adrian Joseph, PhD., Vice President
of Special Projects. 

1. The application of photonuclear physics to nuclear waste is
called Photodeactivation. Photodeactivation involves the
irradiation of specific radioactive isotopes to force the
emission of a neutron, thereby producing an isotope of reduced
atomic mass. These resultant isotopes can be characteristically
either not radioactive or radioactive with a short half-life. 

The fundamental mechanism works on the laboratory scale, and
preliminary research suggests that this technology will also work
on the industrial scale. NSOL is taking the steps necessary for
commercialization of the technology. As for most of the advanced
nuclear technologies developed today, computer simulation is one
of the most important and necessary steps. NSOL will use and
improve a series of nuclear simulation codes 

*(MCNP). The new set of simulation codes will allow the NSOL
research and development team to design, test, improve, and
develop experiments and commercial facilities through computer
modeling. 

NSOL plans to capitalize on its patent and patent-pending
technology by forming strategic alliances and joint ventures with
well-established leaders in the nuclear industry. Continued
revenue streams are expected through licensing of the technology
with both upfront fees and ongoing royalties. 

2. NSOL's technology, the HYPERCON(TM) ADS process, is an X-ray
based photodisintegration process. The technology could be
developed into new applications for remediation of nuclear waste.
The proposed process would operate at a sub-critical level, and
be inherently safe. Any excess heat produced by the process could
also be recovered to generate electricity. 

3. NSOL holds a licencefor theexclusive worldwide rights to a
proprietary technology for the removal of radioactive isotopes
from contaminated wastewater called GHR. Water containing ritium
and deuterium is currently stored in several locations worldwide
due to the expense of available methods of treatment. Severe
health problems for humans and animals are linked to these
contaminants and pose a worldwide environmental threat. 

Several methods for the extraction of tritium from water are
currently available. However these methods such as chemical,
electrolytic, ion exchange, or distillation systems have high
costs associated with their operation. As a result significant
quantities of tritium-contaminated water are being stored rather
than treated due to cost concerns. The storage of
tritium-contaminated water poses a risk to the environment due to
the high mobility of water after a containment failure.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 10:50:01 2002
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Subject: Re: MEG Scalar Energy Device Patented - Production Starts Next Year
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Joe - I could raise nothing on either of the address,s you mentioned re the
MEG ,
Where did u get these from??
I have communicated with Dr Kenny - one of the inventors - and they are
still tidying up the patent details PCT etc, and no doubth are buried with
interest,
If this is what they say it is its a major breakthru and I hope many get in
on the idea and its not cornered by a few major corporations.
----- Original Message -----
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: MEG Scalar Energy Device Patented - Production Starts Next Year



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 10:57:08 2002
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Noel Whitney wrote:
> 
> Joe - I could raise nothing on either of the address,s you mentioned re the
> MEG ,
> Where did u get these from??
> I have communicated with Dr Kenny - one of the inventors - and they are
> still tidying up the patent details PCT etc, and no doubth are buried with
> interest,
> If this is what they say it is its a major breakthru and I hope many get in
> on the idea and its not cornered by a few major corporations.

Tons of information at:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/meg.htm

Terry

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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:58:44 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: MEG Scalar Energy Device Patented - Production Starts Next Year
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On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:03:40PM +0100, Noel Whitney wrote:
> Joe - I could raise nothing on either of the address,s you mentioned re the
> MEG ,

Really?  I've just checked and http://rense.com/general21/free.htm works
for me.

> Where did u get these from??

My brother forwarded it to me funnily enough.  He's a web designer, and
thought I might be interested.

> I have communicated with Dr Kenny - one of the inventors - and they are
> still tidying up the patent details PCT etc, and no doubth are buried with
> interest,

Has anyone ever seen a working Bearden device?

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 12:08:32 2002
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Subject: Pimentel book recommended
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I purchased this book: Pimentel, D. and M. Pimentel. 1996. Food, Energy and 
Society. Revised Ed., Niwot, CO: University Press of Colorado. 363 pp.

I have read only a few chapters, but I recommend it already. It is full of 
meaty details: hard facts & numbers, which hang together well and agree 
with authoritative sources. It covers a broad range of subjects such as 
grains, food preferences, the history of animal power, and modern 
aquaculture. It shows, for example, that the ratio of input fuel for output 
food energy for catfish aquaculture in the U.S. is 34:1, the same as U.S. 
beef production. (p. 98) In Israel the ratio has been reduced to 10:1.

A short chapter on ethanol is understated, objective and factual in my 
opinion, but it clearly reveals the economic, ecological and moral insanity 
of burning food for fuel. Ethanol is revealed as one of the most 
devastating non-renewable energy sources yet invented, much worse than coal 
or oil. Not only does it consume more oil energy than it produces, it also 
consumes irreplaceable topsoil; it condemns millions of people to 
starvation; it could not begin to supply a significant share of U.S. 
energy; and it costs the U.S. taxpayers $750 million per year. This is a 
good example of a Frankenstein government energy program run amok. It 
combines the worst features of communism and capitalism, with no redeeming 
value. Other forms of biomass are little better for a simple reason: "the 
United States uses about 40 percent more fossil fuel that all the plant 
biomass in the United States captures in solar energy." (p. 236)

The good news about energy and agriculture is that the U.S. has already 
mechanized its agriculture. Most of the calories we eat come from oil, not 
solar energy. This means the changeover to fully mechanized cold fusion 
based indoor agriculture will not be difficult, and it will not cause much 
unemployment or market disruption. The system is ready for the changeover. 
It is overdue. If fission had met its promise 50 years ago, farms would 
already be obsolete, food would be ten times cheaper, and we would have 
already returned most land to nature. Farming is the most destructive 
industry on earth, and the least effective. It has never worked properly. 
Even in first world countries, many people do not get enough to eat. The 
sooner it is ended, the better for mankind and the other species.

Attached is a sample of the text.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

. . . About one billion gallons of ethanol are produced in the United 
States each year. This [provides] 1 percent of the fuel utilized by U.S. 
automobiles (USBC, 1994). . . .

When considering the advisability of producing ethanol for automobiles, a 
vital consideration is the amount of cropland required to grow the corn. 
The amount of cropland needed to fuel 1 automobile with ethanol for a year 
is calculated as follows. An average U.S. car travels about 10,000 
miles/year and uses about 515 gallons of fuel (USBC, 1989). Although 110 
bu/acre of corn yield 275 gallons of ethanol, the equivalent in gasoline 
energy is only 174 gallons because ethanol has a much lower Btu content 
than gasoline (76,000 Btu/gallon, versus 120,000 Btu/gallon for gasoline). 
As shown above, there is a significant net energy loss in producing 
ethanol. However, even assuming no energy charge for the fermentation and 
distillation process and charging only for the energy required to produce 
corn (Tables 19.1 and 19.2), the net fuel energy yield from 1 acre of corn 
is only 37 gallons (174 minus 137 gallons). To provide the 515 
gallon/car/yr, about 14 acres of corn must be grown. In comparison, only 
1.5 acres of cropland per year is currently used to feed each American 
(USDA, 1989a). Therefore, nearly 9 times more cropland would be required to 
fuel 1 car than is needed to feed 1 American. Assuming a net production of 
37 gallons of fuel per acre, nearly 2 billion acres of crop-land would be 
required to provide sufficient corn feedstock to fuel all cars in the 
United States with ethanol. This amount of acreage totals more than 4 times 
all the cropland that is actually and potentially available for all crops 
in the United States (USDA, 1993).

To produce the current figure of 850 million gallons of ethanol, about 3 
million acres, or 5 percent, of U.S. corn land is devoted to ethanol (USDA, 
1989a). . . ." p. 264

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:48 2002
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Jed wrote:

I purchased this book: Pimentel, D ...

A short chapter on ethanol is understated,
objective and factual in my opinion,
but it clearly reveals the economic,
ecological and moral insanity 
of burning food for fuel.

Hi Jed,

I entirely agree, but I hope that no one confuses ethanol
(grain alcohol) with methanol (wood alcohol) which can be
made with existing technology from American coal and natural
gas for about $2 per gallon.

Methanol production and transportation conversion should be
subsidized by the federal government as defense measures.
Every dollar the world spends on mideast oil is a potential
dollar to fund state terrorism (let's not kid ourselves about
Al Qaeda).

And what price shall we put on Americans coming home in
body bags from an unwinnable war of attrition?
How much should we add to the price of a barrel of oil
for dead and wounded Americans?  See "The
Beast" for a good look at what the Russians found in 
Afgahanistan.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 16:16:52 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Pimentel book recommended
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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>I entirely agree, but I hope that no one confuses ethanol (grain alcohol) 
>with methanol (wood alcohol) which can be made with existing technology 
>from American coal and natural gas for about $2 per gallon.

Are you saying we can convert natural gas to methanol? What would be the 
point? P&P describe biomass methanol on p. 210 - 211. It is made from 
"various raw materials including natural gas, coal, wood, and municipal 
solid wastes." It too would require "land area greater than the area of 
U.S. cropland now in production, 162 million ha . . ." Not very promising. 
I suppose even a small contribution helps, and we might as well use 
municipal solid waste for something.


>Methanol production and transportation conversion should be subsidized by 
>the federal government as defense measures.

I do not think that anything should be subsidized by the federal 
government. But since the government hands over billions of dollars in 
subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, I guess we must level the playing 
field a little and subsidize methanol and wind energy.

For an interesting left-wing view of energy policy, see:

http://thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020415&s=bivens

"The Green Scissors Campaign, an alliance of environmentalists and taxpayer 
watchdogs, parses the Bush-backed energy bill giveaways: $21.2 billion for 
oil and gas, $5.8 billion for coal, $5.9 billion for utilities and $2.7 
billion for nuclear power."


>Every dollar the world spends on mideast oil is a potential
>dollar to fund state terrorism . . .

For that reason, we should END subsidies for oil, and let the price of 
gasoline rise to $4 or $5 per gallon, which is what it really costs. In a 
few years we would be exporting oil. Saddam Hussien would be dead as a 
doornail. He would not survive long without massive infusions of cash. 
Economic weapon are a lot cheaper and more effective than war.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 16:18:49 2002
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Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:54:06 -0400
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Subject: Re: Paul Brown's Demise
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This is awful. Paul Brown seemed like an earnest, nice person with a 
promising idea and a loving family. Yet another victim of automobiles.

Automobiles take a dreadful toll on our society. In two hundred years, 
people will say we were barbarians for allowing it to go on year after 
year. (Of course we cannot eliminate accidents completely, but we could 
dramatically reduce them.)

People often wonder how our ancestors lived with unspeakable horrors and 
institutions such as slavery. Look at our response to automobiles, global 
warming and starvation. We are no better than they were.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 18:08:37 2002
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>For that reason, we should END subsidies for oil, and let the price of 
>gasoline rise to $4 or $5 per gallon, which is what it really costs. In a 
>few years we would be exporting oil. Saddam Hussien would be dead as a 
>doornail. He would not survive long without massive infusions of cash. 
>Economic weapon are a lot cheaper and more effective than war.
- Jed


According to these folks, we purchase 8% of our crude from Iraq.
That accounts for 40% of Saddams total output. That he was willing
to suspend these sales in the last week or so is a testament to
his cash reserves. I find it wonderfully ironic that he is punishing
us by preventing us from sending him money to fund his terrorist
activities. That we in fact ARE IN A POSITION to be punished in
this way. 

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/pol/usbuyiraqoil1217.html

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 19:19:59 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
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Go to my associates site

www.ufoil.com

And click on the American flag.

You will see a list of companies that don't buy from the Middle East.

By the way, if you use this product in your equipment, you will save
lots of money, plus help the environment.

For example, I used this in a semi truck I owned, which needs 10 gallons
of engine oil every 2 months, plus filters, which cannot be totally
drained of oil.

By using this, I could extend the oil changes; it cleaned out the
sludge,
Plus I got a 15% increase in mileage ( at 6 miles a gallon, and 500
miles a day ) and about a 18 % increase in horsepower. 

Little things like this, done voluntary by anybody, is a step in the
right direction.

Keeping your leaks down on your auto will contribute less bypass oil to
the environment, which is more oil every day leaking on our roads than
the average oil spill by a supertanker.

Matthew Rogers


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 6:18 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Pimentel book recommended

>For that reason, we should END subsidies for oil, and let the price of 
>gasoline rise to $4 or $5 per gallon, which is what it really costs. In
a 
>few years we would be exporting oil. Saddam Hussien would be dead as a 
>doornail. He would not survive long without massive infusions of cash. 
>Economic weapon are a lot cheaper and more effective than war.
- Jed


According to these folks, we purchase 8% of our crude from Iraq.
That accounts for 40% of Saddams total output. That he was willing
to suspend these sales in the last week or so is a testament to
his cash reserves. I find it wonderfully ironic that he is punishing
us by preventing us from sending him money to fund his terrorist
activities. That we in fact ARE IN A POSITION to be punished in
this way. 

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/pol/usbuyiraqoil1217.html

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 19:26:39 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
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Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 19:23:14 -0700
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Jed, 
Read the post about the photo remediation. 

A reactor can be built that is fed gamma rays, into the reactor, with
high neutron count radioactive waste.

The waste is completely transmuted into elements that decay more
quickly.

This is essentially a breeder reactor that cannot start reacting without
the gamma ray input. 

Loss of power, reactor shuts off naturally.

There is no technical reason not to use this .
With this technology, there is also no reason for any long term
radioactive waste storage facilities.


Matthew Rogers



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 8:51 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company

I wrote: "As far as I know there is way to recycle fuel, despite
billions 
of dollars spent on breeder reactors of various types. . . ."

Meant "no way." Sorry.

As always, let me add that there is a great deal I do not know about. 
Perhaps these Adams Motor People have come up with a viable method of 
recycling. Sometimes a small organization beats the large ones.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  9 23:59:43 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Hi All - 

I vaguely recall a witty quotation, which I believe was attributed to Arthur 
C. Clarke.  Referring to modifying organic materials, the speaker in effect 
said that petroleum was too precious to waste in burning for fuel, that 
instead we should be eating it.

Does anyone on this list group recall something like this, and the source?  
I've been going nuts on google.com!  I'd like to include it in an article I'm 
researching at the moment.  

Thanks!

Erik

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Matthew Rogers wrote (amongst a whole load of other stuff):-

<<The Bush administration invited all the registered environmental groups,
including Greenpeace, to the task force. NONE of them showed, and there
are letters of refusal from most>>

<snip offensive language>

Well, I don't know about all the rest, but Greenpeace was invited with only
twenty four hours notice, whereas industry types had weeks.

<<Your "green" friends have no energy policy, except one, shut down all
industry>>

This is just too ridiculous for words. Here is a suggestion Matthew - 1)
list on a sheet of paper the sources you get your information and opinions
from  2) Publish it to the world under the heading " The evil, lying and
self-interested and the paranoid conspiracy theorists that have completely
fooled me"

<<When invited to the task force they do a no show, and you swallow the
news spin>>

Apart from anything else, it has been for years a common device to fool the
public for manipulators to "invite" representatives of the "opposition"
under controlled conditions and then subsequently and ingenuously claim that
a balanced forum was invited but the opposition didn't turn up. Long
experience has shown that it is counterproductive to attend such biased
meetings, so they are refused. It is then easy for the propaganda merchants
to claim  that the opposition is not interested in a dialogue. It is not
completely one sided however, I once attended a public conference on nuclear
power that was organised, not by an established environmental group, but by
local politicians who were opposed to the nuclear reprocessing facility at
Cap de la Hague (North Western France). Nuclear industry representatives
were invited (with several months notice!) but all refused to attend (but I
think I remember that they didn't do it in writing because they are more
sophisticated at public relations - they even keep claiming that their
public relations has been poor!) The politicians made a big thing about this
refusal, claiming that the nuclear industry was too scared to attend. The
industry however, did send two "incognito" observers who were recognised by
a Greenpeace international representative who was also just attending
informally.
    Where you go wrong Matthew, is your apparent belief that the sources you
trust are the forces of light and truth and that the any others are dark,
devious, slippery liars. This is a naive view of how most people really
operate. What you have to analyse is the breadth and timespan of the terms
of reference of any group who put forward views. Short term positions of
self interested industry groups can seem easier to work out as making sense
but can, and usually do, conflict with the long term well being of the
majority. You keep telling undeserving forum members to "get real" - I
suggest you do.

Nick Palmer

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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

I hope that no one confuses ethanol (grain alcohol) with
methanol (wood alcohol) which can be made with existing technology 
from American coal and natural gas for about $2 per gallon.

Jed wrote:

Are you saying we can convert natural gas to methanol?

Jack writes:

Yes.

Jed wrote:

What would be the point?

Hi Jed,

If gasoline is replaced by methanol as our liquid fuel,
there would be minimum disruption of American transportation
technology ("gas" stations, etc.).

Subsidies to make the switch are a legitimate national defense
expenditure.  Repeating, how much should we add to the price
of a barrel of oil for Americans killed and wounded in the
Mideast?  Is it better to invade Iraq or cut off Iraq's oil
revenue?

Jack Smith


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Subject: Re: Pimentel book recommended
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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Are you saying we can convert natural gas to methanol? . . .
>
>What would be the point?
>
>Hi Jed,
>
>If gasoline is replaced by methanol as our liquid fuel,
>there would be minimum disruption of American transportation
>technology ("gas" stations, etc.).

So, you would use coal converted to methanol? The energy overhead for 
conversion would be gigantic. I think and some other futuristic schemes 
would be more practical, such as generating hydrogen gas from wind turbines.

Pimentel says that methanol has an overall negative value, like ethanol. 
See p. 206, footnote S.

It might make sense to produce a little methanol from garbage, because 
garbage has to be processed anyway, but this can only provide a minute 
fraction of our total energy. It would be better than incinerating the 
garbage. Recently, New York City has looked at incineration again, because 
someone pointed out that the trucks carrying garbage from New York City to 
landfills in Pennsylvania cause more pollution than incineration would. 
Another case of unintended consequences, and people not thinking the 
problem through.


>Is it better to invade Iraq or cut off Iraq's oil revenue?

This could be done easily, with existing technology such as hybrid engines. 
This would reduce overall energy consumption and pollution, whereas ethanol 
would increase overall energy & pollution (because it takes more energy to 
make methanol than the methanol itself produces).

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: reporter's query - Clarke quotation
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Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

>I vaguely recall a witty quotation, which I believe was attributed to 
>Arthur  C. Clarke.  Referring to modifying organic materials, the speaker 
>in effect  said that petroleum was too precious to waste in burning for 
>fuel, that instead we should be eating it.
>
>Does anyone on this list group recall something like this, and the source?

He said this several times. For example, see Infinite Energy, #22, 1998:

"However, coal and oil will always be essential raw materials for an 
unlimited range of products - chemicals, plastics, even synthetic foods. 
Oil is much too valuable to burn: we should eat it."

I think he is wrong. with CF it would be cheaper and safer to synthesize 
hydrocarbons on-site from carbon dioxide and water, rather than digging it 
out of the ground and hauling them thousands of miles. 14% of oil is used 
for "non-energy" applications, mainly plastic feedstock, I think.  That's 
11 million barrels per day (1985 data). Oil company executives say that 
even if we stop burning oil they will still have a market. I doubt it.


>I've been going nuts on google.com!

Try this search term: oil eat arthur clarke

- Jed

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Subject: Re: reporter's query - Clarke quotation
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 4/9/02 11:55 PM, "Erikbaard aol.com" <Erikbaard@aol.com> wrote:

> Hi All - 
> 
> I vaguely recall a witty quotation, which I believe was attributed to Arthur
> C. Clarke.  Referring to modifying organic materials, the speaker in effect
> said that petroleum was too precious to waste in burning for fuel, that
> instead we should be eating it.

The reference is Infinite Energy, Issue #22, October/November 1998:

Arthur C. Clarke, p.15-16, "2001: The Coming Age of Hydrogen Power."

He wrote, p.16:

   Twenty years ago, when OPEC quadrupled oil prices, I remarked, "The age
of cheap power is over--the age of FREE power is still 50 years ahead."  I
may have been slightly pessimistic...
    However, coal and oil will will always be essential raw materials for an
unlimited range of products--chemicals, plastics, even synthetic foods. Oil
is much too valuable to burn: we should eat it."

This was a reprint of a largely cold fusion-related address to Pacific Area
Senior Officer Logistics Seminar (PASOLS) on March 29, 1993, Hilton Hotel,
Colombo, Sri Lanka.  The address included within it an open letter to Vice
President Al Gore (which was never answered by Gore, by the way.)

--Gene Mallove

> 
> Does anyone on this list group recall something like this, and the source?
> I've been going nuts on google.com!  I'd like to include it in an article I'm
> researching at the moment.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Erik
> 
> 

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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:52:03 -0500
To: Vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: FWD: Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag race
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--============_-1193664921==_ma============
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This story just goes to show you that sometimes smart people do stupid things.
>
>NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH
>Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag race
>
>CEO of Nuclear Solutions raced southeast of Boise
>From The Idaho Statesman
>http://204.228.236.37/story.asp?ID=7081
>
>A 43-year-old Meridian man died early Sunday after losing control of the
>1972 Mazda he was drag-racing on a remote road southeast of Boise.
>The Idaho State Police said Paul M. Brown was driving at a high rate of
>speed when he flew off the side of the Orchard access road near the Boise
>Stage Stop gas station on Interstate 84.
>His maroon and gold RX2 tumbled several times.
>Brown died at the scene.



>  acquisitions such as our GHR tritium removal technology," he
>concluded.
>John Dempsey and Patrick Herda, co-founder and Vice President of Business
>Development will direct the company's activities until a new CEO is
>appointed by the company's board of directors. Their efforts will be
>supported by Dr. Qi Ao, Vice President of Research and Development and
>Adrian Joseph, PhD., Vice President of Special Projects.
>Visit:
>http://www.nuclearsolutions.com
>From Jerry E. Smith 04/08/02
>www.jerryesmith.com
>Jerry E. Smith
>Author, 'HAARP: The Ultimate Weapon of the Conspiracy'
>(Adventures Unlimited Press, 1998)
>http://www.jerryesmith.com


-- 
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: FWD: Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag
race</title></head><body>
<div>This story just goes to show you that sometimes smart people do
stupid things.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH
/// NEWS FLASH /// NEWS FLASH<br>
Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag race<br>
<br>
CEO of Nuclear Solutions raced southeast of Boise<br>
>From The Idaho Statesman<br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u>http://204.228.236.37/story.asp?ID=7081<br>
<br>
</u></font>A 43-year-old Meridian man died early Sunday after losing
control of the<br>
1972 Mazda he was drag-racing on a remote road southeast of Boise.<br>
The Idaho State Police said Paul M. Brown was driving at a high rate
of<br>
speed when he flew off the side of the Orchard access road near the
Boise<br>
Stage Stop gas station on Interstate 84.<br>
His maroon and gold RX2 tumbled several times.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Brown died at the scene.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;acquisitions such as our GHR
tritium removal technology,&quot; he</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>concluded.<br>
John Dempsey and Patrick Herda, co-founder and Vice President of
Business<br>
Development will direct the company's activities until a new CEO
is<br>
appointed by the company's board of directors. Their efforts will
be<br>
supported by Dr. Qi Ao, Vice President of Research and Development
and<br>
Adrian Joseph, PhD., Vice President of Special Projects.<br>
Visit:<br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u>http://www.nuclearsolutions.com<br>
</u></font>From Jerry E. Smith 04/08/02<br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u>www.jerryesmith.com<br>
</u></font>Jerry E. Smith<br>
Author, 'HAARP: The Ultimate Weapon of the Conspiracy'<br>
(Adventures Unlimited Press, 1998)<br>
<font
color="#0000FF"><u>http://www.jerryesmith.com</u></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1193664921==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 10 10:30:42 2002
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Subject: Re: FWD: Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag race
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thomas malloy wrote:

>This story just goes to show you that sometimes smart people do stupid things.

That's unspeakable! Even worse than an accident.

I think Brown once claimed that he was being harassed by rivals and the 
government for his work. Conspiracy theorists might imagine this accident 
may actually be a murder, but I think the drag racing story makes that 
unlikely. If Brown was in the habit of drag racing, surely his family knows 
about it. If he was not, they will be highly suspicious. For example, if 
you read a news report that I was killed drag racing my 1994 Geo Metro, you 
will know that is a setup, because I never exceed the speed limit and the 
Metro does not go faster than 60 mph downhill with a tailwind. (Sorry to 
mix levity with such tragic news.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 10 11:04:22 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FWD: Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag race
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:11:48 -0400
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Yes Jed, when I broke the news to a friend of Pauls
yesterday he told me that Paul had a passion for fast
cars and was known to hit the track on occasion. We speculated
that his death might have happened in just this manner.
Thanks for posting the follow up article, Thomas.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:27 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FWD: Dr. Paul Brown dies in drag race


thomas malloy wrote:

>This story just goes to show you that sometimes smart people do stupid
things.

That's unspeakable! Even worse than an accident.

I think Brown once claimed that he was being harassed by rivals and the
government for his work. Conspiracy theorists might imagine this accident
may actually be a murder, but I think the drag racing story makes that
unlikely. If Brown was in the habit of drag racing, surely his family knows
about it. If he was not, they will be highly suspicious. For example, if
you read a news report that I was killed drag racing my 1994 Geo Metro, you
will know that is a setup, because I never exceed the speed limit and the
Metro does not go faster than 60 mph downhill with a tailwind. (Sorry to
mix levity with such tragic news.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 10 11:36:47 2002
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Isn't this getting way off topic for vortex-l?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 10 14:04:01 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:00:49 EDT
Subject: Seagliders harnessing thermal gradients
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Hi All - 

This isn't about "free" or novel energy, but a clever use of energy present 
in oceans and atmospheres:  thermal gradients and gravity.  I thought some 
people on this list might enjoy learning about it, especially in connection 
with astrobiology.

NASA has, for the moment, killed funding for research leading to an 
underwater probe for Europa's suspected saltwater ocean.  But it's possible 
that this is a good thing.  I proposed in a SPACE.com article that U.S. 
Navy-funded research into underwater gliders could offer a superior means of 
probing Europa, exploring Venus, and even diving into the methane/ethane seas 
of Titan.  NASA wanted a big battery and propeller machine under the ice of 
Europa, but that might break down, stir up water that should left 
undisturbed, and leak lubricants into a pristine research environment.  The 
navy wants gliders with internal actuators because they have no flaps or 
propellers, no lubricant, and one already exists that could "fly" under the 
Pacific from Seattle to Tokyo on a penlight battery!  Another model uses no 
batteries for locomotion at all, but instead taps heat gradients.

http://space.com/businesstechnology/technology/sea_glider_020410-1.html

One note:  temperature differences are too small on Titan to tap, so a small 
battery would be needed.

Thanks!

Erik

Erik Baard
718-786-8388
http://www.baard.ws
41-20 29th Street #4A
LIC, NY 11101
erikbaard aol.com

AIM: erikbaard
ICQ: 107510152

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:12:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Time travel?
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In a message dated 4/9/2002 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert.chambers baesystems.com writes:


> As Arthur Clarke wrote, "The most 
> >convincing argument against time travel is the remarkable scarcity of time 
> >travelers. However unpleasant our age may appear to the future, surely one 
> >would expect scholars and students to visit us, if such a thing were 
> >possible at all. Though they might try to disguise themselves, accidents 
> >would be bound to happen . . ."

There is another possibility of time travel other than by physical body, and 
that would be by means of information or communication time travel, as 
mentioned by Wiener, in his book on Cybernetics.  And the previous emails on 
this list, mentioned how to send photons back in time.  Information can be 
carried in a series of photons, back in time, which makes it possible for 
knowledge on how to build a time travel machine and high energy producing 
machines from the future to be communicated back in time, by individuals who 
have receivers to pick up the photons or other communication waves traveling 
back in time.  The book Parallel Universes, by Fred Allan Wolf, discusses how 
to build a time travel machine, with rotating cylinders, and stars.  Also the 
website, http://chronos.ws/about.html, discusses the mathematics and physics 
of time travel. Even our sun can be used as a time travel device, just like 
in the Start Trek movie, where the sun was used as a sling shot from all of 
its gravity and energy. 

In our modern, day, if time travel existed, it would be priceless, and the 
secret organizations would monopolize it, and keep this technology and real 
instances of its use secret, just as they do any classified technology.  And 
for accidents, I have a book called, Time Travel by Commander X,  which lists 
hundreds of documented historical cases of time travel events claimed by 
citizens, just like UFO events, in our modern age and in past ages, but 
covered up by time travel police, or thought police from the present and 
future.  

Just look at the Bible and many other religious books or Leonardo DaVinci's 
works, which prophesies the future, very accurately at times. Only by means 
of at least information from the future, could these books be writing so 
accurately. Every person dreams, and dreaming is a form of time travel. So 
time travel exists, and the real question is to what degree does time travel 
effect our lives in our modern age, and to what degree will we be allowed to 
speak about the truth in the public forum for our own good, and who will be 
responsible enough to use such technologies wisely and ethically for the good 
of all, and for each specific individual? And from what timelines in the 
future may we receive visitors, and which timeline shall we as a world, 
nation, and individuals choose to live in to represent our future, and will 
we be allowed to chose freely, or is there a secret cold war over such issues 
of choice of time lines to live in?  

Some may choose live in many timelines in parallel, every day.  Just by 
consciously thinking ahead, and changing an event on one's life that would 
normally be realized from normal habits, any ordinary individual can change 
timelines and the future, moment by moment.  So individuals have a great deal 
of power to change timelines, to change the future, and in a sense to travel 
back and forwards in time, without the use of any high technology, by simply 
communicating to themselves in self reflections, in dreams, in telepathy, or 
in meditation, and acting upon those plans effectively. 

I have a book I would like to refer to you which you may be interested in 
which discusses in detail the theory and techniques of time management.  The 
book is called, Split Second Society, Tools For A Time Terrorized World. by 
Tom Cross, ISBN 0-923-426-96-5, 1993, published by Cross Communication 
Company, Boulder, Colorado, (303) 444-5115 phone. 

I am not sure if the book is still in print and you may have to contact Cross 
Communications, and they make telecommunications modem software. 

Here are some of the chapter headings in the book: The end of Time, Designing 
Time, Virtual Time, Unscheduling, Time Lords, Silent Time, Programmed Time, 
Language of Time, Time Space, Time Networks.   

Most of the book discusses the how to apply time management program 
techniques used in parallel processors and process scheduling for computers 
and modems in our every day life for managing our own tasks.  Instead of 
using telephones, where we have to wait for the caller to call us at a 
specific time, or scheduling meetings where everyone has to be at a specific 
place and time to hold a conversation or do business, this book discusses 
techniques of using emails, teleconferencing, and job schedules, so that the 
meeting can be held virtually, and need not be done in real time, to save 
time and energy. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal
Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron





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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/9/2002 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robert.chambers baesystems.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">As Arthur Clarke wrote, "The most 
<BR>&gt;convincing argument against time travel is the remarkable scarcity of time 
<BR>&gt;travelers. However unpleasant our age may appear to the future, surely one 
<BR>&gt;would expect scholars and students to visit us, if such a thing were 
<BR>&gt;possible at all. Though they might try to disguise themselves, accidents 
<BR>&gt;would be bound to happen . . ."</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>There is another possibility of time travel other than by physical body, and that would be by means of information or communication time travel, as mentioned by Wiener, in his book on Cybernetics. &nbsp;And the previous emails on this list, mentioned how to send photons back in time. &nbsp;Information can be carried in a series of photons, back in time, which makes it possible for knowledge on how to build a time travel machine and high energy producing machines from the future to be communicated back in time, by individuals who have receivers to pick up the photons or other communication waves traveling back in time. &nbsp;The book Parallel Universes, by Fred Allan Wolf, discusses how to build a time travel machine, with rotating cylinders, and stars. &nbsp;Also the website, http://chronos.ws/about.html, discusses the mathematics and physics of time travel. Even our sun can be used as a time travel device, just like in the Start Trek movie, where the sun was used as a sling shot from all of its gravity and energy. 
<BR>
<BR>In our modern, day, if time travel existed, it would be priceless, and the secret organizations would monopolize it, and keep this technology and real instances of its use secret, just as they do any classified technology. &nbsp;And for accidents, I have a book called, Time Travel by Commander X, &nbsp;which lists hundreds of documented historical cases of time travel events claimed by citizens, just like UFO events, in our modern age and in past ages, but covered up by time travel police, or thought police from the present and future. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Just look at the Bible and many other religious books or Leonardo DaVinci's works, which prophesies the future, very accurately at times. Only by means of at least information from the future, could these books be writing so accurately. Every person dreams, and dreaming is a form of time travel. So time travel exists, and the real question is to what degree does time travel effect our lives in our modern age, and to what degree will we be allowed to speak about the truth in the public forum for our own good, and who will be responsible enough to use such technologies wisely and ethically for the good of all, and for each specific individual? And from what timelines in the future may we receive visitors, and which timeline shall we as a world, nation, and individuals choose to live in to represent our future, and will we be allowed to chose freely, or is there a secret cold war over such issues of choice of time lines to live in? &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Some may choose live in many timelines in parallel, every day. &nbsp;Just by consciously thinking ahead, and changing an event on one's life that would normally be realized from normal habits, any ordinary individual can change timelines and the future, moment by moment. &nbsp;So individuals have a great deal of power to change timelines, to change the future, and in a sense to travel back and forwards in time, without the use of any high technology, by simply communicating to themselves in self reflections, in dreams, in telepathy, or in meditation, and acting upon those plans effectively. 
<BR>
<BR>I have a book I would like to refer to you which you may be interested in which discusses in detail the theory and techniques of time management. &nbsp;The book is called, Split Second Society, Tools For A Time Terrorized World. by Tom Cross, ISBN 0-923-426-96-5, 1993, published by Cross Communication Company, Boulder, Colorado, (303) 444-5115 phone. 
<BR>
<BR>I am not sure if the book is still in print and you may have to contact Cross Communications, and they make telecommunications modem software. 
<BR>
<BR>Here are some of the chapter headings in the book: The end of Time, Designing Time, Virtual Time, Unscheduling, Time Lords, Silent Time, Programmed Time, Language of Time, Time Space, Time Networks. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Most of the book discusses the how to apply time management program techniques used in parallel processors and process scheduling for computers and modems in our every day life for managing our own tasks. &nbsp;Instead of using telephones, where we have to wait for the caller to call us at a specific time, or scheduling meetings where everyone has to be at a specific place and time to hold a conversation or do business, this book discusses techniques of using emails, teleconferencing, and job schedules, so that the meeting can be held virtually, and need not be done in real time, to save time and energy. 
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR>Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_115.faab4fa.29e63d07_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 10 19:48:34 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Paul Brown's Demise
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>
>People often wonder how our ancestors lived with unspeakable horrors and 
>institutions such as slavery. Look at our response to automobiles, global 
>warming and starvation. We are no better than they were.

Jed,

What do you think we should use in place of automobiles? I do not ask this 
sarcastically, but honestly. What do you see the solution as?

--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 10 20:05:30 2002
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I'm trying to replicate a patent, In the patent the following magnet is
described:

A high manganese content permanent magnet having a magnetic field
density of 470 gauss was used as the magnetic material

What types of magnetic materials contain "A high percentage" of
manganese? And around that flux density?

For those interested the patent is GB2075755

http://ep.espacenet.com/espacenet/ep/en/e_net.htm?search5

under "Publication Number" enter:
GB2075755

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 01:27:05 2002
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:
<<Isn't this getting way off topic for vortex-l?>>

Yes, but just about all Vorts like to see OCCASIONAL stories about the wider
energy field. We should drop this one now.

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:37 2002
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Jed wrote:

So, you would use coal converted to methanol? The energy
overhead for conversion would be gigantic ...  Pimentel
says that methanol has an overall negative value, ... See
p. 206, footnote S.

Jack writes:

The energy overhead would be covered by the coal or
methane converted to CO2 and H2O as part of the processes.
The methanol cost (unsubsidized) would be in the range of
$2 per gallon.

Jed wrote:

I think and some other futuristic schemes would be more
practical, such as generating hydrogen gas from wind
turbines.

Jack writes:

I'm all for switching to a hydrogen economy -- no CO2
formed -- I like cool weather (about 50 degrees F);
but, to get free NOW of our disastrous dependence on oil
(we're talking about American lives) we have to make it
possible for the motorist to drive into a gas station,
put the pump nozzle into his tank, and get a liquid fuel
that is not based on oil.

Jed wrote:

It might make sense to produce a little methanol from
garbage, because garbage has to be processed anyway,
but this can only provide a minute fraction of our total
energy.

Jack writes:

Our switch to methanol has be massive (and the result
of U.S. defense policy).  Within that context, methanol
production from garbage would be a welcome addition.

Jack wrote:

Is it better to invade Iraq or cut off Iraq's oil revenue?

Jed wrote:

This could be done easily, with existing technology such
as hybrid engines.

Jack writes:

Unfortunately, hybrids still require gasoline made from oil
(oil refineries are also a negative energy input).

U.S. defense policy should be to eliminate all world
demand for Mideast oil.  If Japan or Europe needs oil to
make plastics and drugs, the U.S. should sell them oil at
a subsidized price so low that no oil well in the Mideast
can compete.  Of course, U.S. inspectors would have to
confirm that none of this oil is used for fuel purposes.

Jed wrote:

This would reduce overall energy consumption and pollution,
whereas ethanol would increase overall energy & pollution
(because it takes more energy to make methanol than the
methanol itself produces).

Jack writes:

A major problem facing the methanol conversion proposal
is the confusion between ethanol and methanol.  While
it's true that ethanol can be made from oil (propane or
ethane), the pressure in the U.S. for using
ethanol in ethanol-gasoline mixtures is coming from big
agriculture, subsidized with our tax dollars and still with
an insufficient market (starving people don't have cash)
for its products.

While agriculture based ethanol does take more energy to
make than such ETHANOL produces, it does not take more
energy to make methanol than the methanol produces.  Even
if it did, it would be worth it to save American lives.

Jed wrote:

With CF it would be cheaper and safer to synthesize
hydrocarbons on-site from carbon dioxide and water,
rather than digging it out of the ground and hauling them
thousands of miles. 14% of oil is used for "non-energy"
applications, mainly plastic feedstock, I think.  That's 11
million barrels per day (1985 data). Oil company executives
say that even if we stop burning oil they will still have
a market. I doubt it.

Hi Jed,

CF (or a Mills process or etc.) is our hope.

Jack Smith


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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

>What do you think we should use in place of automobiles? I do not ask this 
>sarcastically, but honestly. What do you see the solution as?

I think we can make automobiles much safer with a combination of new 
technology, better law-enforcement, and safety inspections. Highway safety 
has improved tremendously over time, by an order of magnitude since 1920, 
thanks to incremental changes. I think additional changes should be 
implemented more rapidly. Many of the improvements I recommend other people 
might consider intrusive. For example, I support the use of cameras at 
intersections to catch people who run red lights. I have strong feelings 
about this because as a pedestrian and bicyclist, three times I have come 
within inches of being killed by people running red lights at high speed. I 
support the use of onboard speed recorders. Highways are public property 
and drivers should have no expectation of privacy. Here are a few examples 
of what is needed, including some especially controversial proposals:

People convicted of drunk driving should have their license permanently 
revoked. This is the rule in Japan, and some some European countries I 
think. Drunk drivers cause roughly 32% of fatal accidents. People with 
revoked licenses who are found driving should be automatically sentenced to 
jail terms. Their family cars should be equipped with intrusive devices to 
test driver sobriety, because the problem often runs in families.

Heavy truck inspections must be beefed up. In Georgia, periodically trucks 
pulling into the highway weight scales are inspected for brakes, engine 
emissions and so on. The failure rate is scandalous. Many drivers are found 
to be driving without proper licensing, wanted criminals or driving under 
the influence.

In major metropolitan areas such as Atlanta, all highways & roads should be 
made into toll roads, with some kind of automatic toll collection scheme 
varying by time of day. This would greatly reduce traffic. I described that 
here in February 2002, in the messages titled "U.S. transportation is 
socialistic." I would make the speed limit on all urban highways 55 mph, 
with very strict, fully automatic enforcement. All cars should have 
tamper-proof onboard computers. Anytime you exceed 55 mph for more than 30 
seconds you should be issued an automatic citation of, say, $50. In Atlanta 
people often drive at 70 mph, but the average speed is much lower, mainly 
because there are so many traffic jams. Many of the traffic jams are caused 
by people driving 70 mph and causing accidents. If we lower the maximum 
speed and rationalize traffic with free market incentives, on average 
everyone will travel faster. A 55 mph limit would drastically reduce fatal 
accidents and delays caused by accidents.

Ultimately, we must ban driving on public highways. All vehicles operated 
in public must be controlled by computers. Of course that is impossible 
today, but in 30 to 50 years I expect computers will develop roughly as 
much intelligence as, say, Labrador retriever dogs, with much faster 
reflexes, better vision augmented by radar, no fears, anger or irrational 
behavior. I am sure the Labrador retriever has enough basic intelligence to 
operate a motor vehicle, because these animals master more complex 
behaviors in nature and in domesticated training, for example in tasks 
assigned to seeing eye dogs.

More conventional ideas are discussed here:

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/budget/Over,Goals,Corp,Data.pdf

http://www.itsasafety.org/recs/mostwanted/highwayissues.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 08:08:03 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Pimentel book recommended
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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>While agriculture based ethanol does take more energy to
>make than such ETHANOL produces, it does not take more
>energy to make methanol than the methanol produces.

Pimentel & Pimentel says it does. They list both ethanol and methanol as 
negative sources of energy. I have not finished the book and I do not know 
the details.

Also, even if it does not take more energy, overall energy use and 
pollution would rise, unless coal mining + methanol production together 
took less overhead than oil drilling and refining. I think that is 
unlikely. Coal mining takes less overhead than oil production, but the 
differences are not dramatic.


>Even if it did, it would be worth it to save American lives.

Saving lives is always "worth it" but one has to do a cost benefit analysis 
to determine the best way to go about it. If it costs $1 billion per life 
you save, the method makes no sense because we do not have unlimited 
amounts of money. All schemes to reduce oil consumption would save lives 
and improve national security. Choosing the best scheme is complicated and 
controversial, but I expect conservation schemes such as hybrid engines 
could be implemented faster and at a lower cost than methanol. There is 
more than enough potential savings in conservation to do the job. We could 
easily bankrupt the whole Middle East, while we save billions of dollars. 
All schemes that call for increased overall energy consumption, such as 
converting to methanol or conducting full-scale war against Iraq, would 
cost money. Not using the oil in the first place would save money after the 
initial investment in hybrid engines and other capital equipment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 09:18:18 2002
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Subject: RE: Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders
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Indeed, it seems that folks simply bristle at the outlandish
notion that coal and oil interests could be deciding national public energy
policy... can you believe it? Why look here, it says that a full
two days were given to collect material from environmental orgs...

http://cbsnews.cbs.com/stories/2002/04/10/politics/printable505865.shtml

Now some commie pinko leftist might try to point out that the 2 months
of personal meetings with industry spokesmen prior to this could
be considered favoring industry, but obviously such unpatriotic finger
pointing
people are terrorists and should be immediately discounted.

What an insane notion, that national public policy should be influenced
in some way by the public...unamerican, I say!

K.





-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nick7 itl.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:22 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Energy Official Met Only With Industry Leaders


Stephen Lajoie wrote:
<<Isn't this getting way off topic for vortex-l?>>

Yes, but just about all Vorts like to see OCCASIONAL stories about the wider
energy field. We should drop this one now.

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:20 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:54:34 EDT
Subject: "Arthur Clarke Mars Greenhouse"
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11 April 2002
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CONTACT:
SETI Institute: Diane Richards, drichards seti.org
650-960-4538
SpaceRef: US: Keith Cowing, keith spaceref.com 703-787-6567
SpaceRef: Canada: Marc Boucher, marc spaceref.com
250-920-7222
NASA Haughton-Mars Project: Dr Pascal Lee,
pclee earthlink.net 408-666-2001

GREENHOUSE FOR A RED PLANET

MOUNTAIN VIEW, CA -- SpaceRef Interactive Inc. today
announced the donation of  an experimental greenhouse to the
SETI Institute's Center for the Study of Life in the
Universe.  The donation supports research activities on
Devon Island, Nunavut, in the Canadian high Arctic,
conducted under the auspices of the NASA Haughton-Mars
Project.

Named after and dedicated to Sir Arthur C. Clarke,
originator of communications satellites, author of 2001: A
SPACE ODYSSEY and almost 100 other books, the "Arthur Clarke
Mars Greenhouse" will support research activities that
increase our understanding of life in the universe and help
pave the way for the human exploration of Mars.  "Look out,
Mars - here we come!" said Clarke, about the greenhouse.

The NASA Haughton-Mars Project (HMP) is an international,
interdisciplinary planetary-analog field research project
led by Dr. Pascal Lee, planetary scientist, of the SETI
Institute.  Pending acquisition of all necessary resources,
the Arthur Clarke Mars Greenhouse will be deployed and
equipped in two stages, the first in Summer 2002, the second
in Summer 2003. The 2002 field season will be dedicated to
installation and monitoring of the environmental
characteristics of the greenhouse. Research operations
involving selected plant growth would begin in 2003.

The assembled greenhouse is 24 feet long, 12 feet wide, and
has a maximum height of 10 feet along its center spine.  The
greenhouse will undergo test assembly at NASA Ames Research
Center in Moffett Field, CA, and is displayed at the Second
Astrobiology Science Conference 7-11 April, 2002. 
Installation on Devon Island is expected to occur in July,
2002 at the earliest.

The Arthur Clarke Mars Greenhouse is being donated by
SpaceRef to the SETI Institute so as to allow the growth and
harvesting of selected plants in support of basic and
applied research in the fields of astrobiology, space
biology, life support systems studies, information
technologies, and human factors relating to the human
exploration of Mars.

"It is one thing to talk about doing complex technical
operations in a remote, potentially hazardous location. It
is another thing altogether to actually go there and try to
make it work" said  Marc Boucher, SpaceRef CEO and HMP-2000
field season veteran.

The Arthur Clarke Mars Greenhouse initiates an experimental
testbed that supports field research with the goal of
understanding the operational challenges faced by future
astronauts on the surface of Mars. "We hope that our
contribution will lead - indeed stimulate - the deployment
of high fidelity simulations of potential Mars greenhouses
in the years to come" said SpaceRef President Keith Cowing.

Ultimately, this greenhouse, and the scientific research
that is conducted within, is intended to further the
prospect of sending humans to Mars.

"The Arthur Clarke Mars Greenhouse will help us plan the
human exploration of Mars and teach us more about the
possibilities and requirements of life in extreme
environments on Earth, Mars and beyond" said Lee.

About SETI Institute, HMP and SpaceRef: 

The NASA HMP Principal Investigator is Dr. Pascal Lee, a
planetary scientist with the Center for the Study of Life in
the Universe at the SETI Institute. Lee is based at NASA
Ames Research Center. SpaceRef's Greenhouse Project Manager
is Keith Cowing, President of SpaceRef Interactive, Inc.,
and former NASA space biologist and payload integration
manager. Once deployed, research in the greenhouse will be
overseen by a science team under the auspices of the NASA
HMP.

About SpaceRef Interactive Inc.

SpaceRef Interactive Inc. ( http://www.spaceref.com ) is an
international Internet content and database firm
specializing in scientific and technical websites with
offices in Reston, Virginia USA, and Victoria, British
Columbia, Canada. Among SpaceRef's products are
SpaceRef.com, SpaceRef.ca, and Astrobiology.com which
provide a daily collection of news stories, press releases
and status reports housed in the world's largest online
searchable database of space news items; a directory of
space-related websites; and a series of dedicated search
engines for both broad and specialized areas of space
research and exploration.  SpaceRef also believes in giving
something back to the audience and community that utilize
its resources and has made a practice since its founding in
1999 of providing monetary, hardware, and personnel support
to research efforts such as the Haughton-Mars Project.
Further information about the greenhouse is available at
http://research.spaceref.com

About the NASA Haughton-Mars Project

The NASA Haughton-Mars Project (HMP)
(http://www.marsonearth.org) is an international
interdisciplinary field research project centered on the
scientific study of the Haughton impact crater and
surrounding terrains, Devon Island, Nunavut, Canadian high
Arctic, viewed as a possible Mars analog. The rocky polar
desert setting, geologic features and biological attributes
of the site offer unique insights into the evolution of
Mars, the effects of impacts on Earth and other planets, and
the possibilities of life in extreme environments.
Scientific field studies at Haughton also support
exploration research, allowing for investigations of the
technologies, strategies, humans factors and hardware
designs relevant to the future exploration of Mars and other
planetary bodies by robots and humans. HMP-2002 will be the
6th field season of the HMP. The HMP is managed by the SETI
Institute at the Institute's Center for the Study of Life in
the Universe.

About the SETI Institute

The SETI Institute (http://www.seti.org) was incorporated as
a 501 (c) (3) non-profit California corporation on November
20, 1984. The purpose of the Institute, as defined at that
time and still true today, is to conduct scientific research
and educational projects relevant to the origin, nature,
prevalence, and distribution of life in the universe. This
work includes two primary research areas: 1) the scientific
Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI), and 2) Life
in the Universe research. Concurrent with its research
focus, the Institute strives to contribute to both formal
and informal science education related to these fields of
interest. Over its seventeen year history, the Institute has
administered over $150 million of funded research.

      www.seti.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 14:16:02 2002
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:14:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Manganese Magnets
In-Reply-To: <3CB4FD03.70B628EA ihug.co.nz>
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	Dear John,


	This is a more or less standard magnetic amp type set up.
	
	The material is simply a manganese-type ferrite, but nearly any
ferrite will do.   Unless you NEED to operate a radio frequencies, then
the ferrite will just be a loss element.

	The mater is NOT special...the FUNCTION of this magnetic amplifier
or any other mag amp does NOT depend on the manganese.

	AND:  Mag amps do NOT amplify magnetism.... any more than a
transistor amplifier amplifies a TRANSISTOR!

	If you let me know what seems to be so interesting about this I
can maybe de-mystify this for you.

	The first questions are:

	1]  	Do you know what a magnetic amplifier IS?
	2]	Have you gone to the McGraw Hill encyclopedia of Science and
Technology to find OUT what a mag amp is?

	After you go to [2] and them follow all the "and please see"
refs.... THEN you will probably be in a much much better place to make
sense of the patent.

	Mag amps are VERY cool   You can get gans of 100,000 to a millin
from one stage !!!

					J

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Berry wrote:

> I'm trying to replicate a patent, In the patent the following magnet is
> described:
> 
> A high manganese content permanent magnet having a magnetic field
> density of 470 gauss was used as the magnetic material
> 
> What types of magnetic materials contain "A high percentage" of
> manganese? And around that flux density?
> 
> For those interested the patent is GB2075755
> 
> http://ep.espacenet.com/espacenet/ep/en/e_net.htm?search5
> 
> under "Publication Number" enter:
> GB2075755
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:25 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Manganese Magnets
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On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Berry wrote:

> What types of magnetic materials contain "A high percentage" of
> manganese? And around that flux density?

I remember seeing somewhere that when manganese and bismuth are mixed, the
alloy is ferromagnetic, even though the two metals are non-magnetic when
pure.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 17:54:00 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Manganese Magnets
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:03:33 -0400
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Manganese and bismuth, also manganse and aluminum.

Both alloys have high coercivitity, neither is
commercially available to my knowledge. Better
you should contact the inventor and attempt to
determine what was done and how...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:32 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: John Schnurer
Subject: Re: Manganese Magnets


On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Berry wrote:

> What types of magnetic materials contain "A high percentage" of
> manganese? And around that flux density?

I remember seeing somewhere that when manganese and bismuth are mixed, the
alloy is ferromagnetic, even though the two metals are non-magnetic when
pure.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 18:46:29 2002
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear John,
>
>         This is a more or less standard magnetic amp type set up.

I don't know much about magnetic amps, but are you sure?
I may be wrong but I don't think mag amps do what this does.

>
>         The material is simply a manganese-type ferrite, but nearly any
> ferrite will do.   Unless you NEED to operate a radio frequencies, then
> the ferrite will just be a loss element.
>
>         The mater is NOT special...the FUNCTION of this magnetic amplifier
> or any other mag amp does NOT depend on the manganese.
>
>         AND:  Mag amps do NOT amplify magnetism.... any more than a
> transistor amplifier amplifies a TRANSISTOR!

If you read the patent more carefully I think you might find it is not what you
think.
It can act as an antenna and amplify a weak signal into a very strong one
without any source of electrical potential.
And while there is a high frequency current in the coil around the element the
magnetic field produced by the magnet is stated to more than double. (the sub
microamp current in the ten turn coil being far to small to account for this
increase)
As far as I am aware this is a unique device.
I think you might be right about it being a manganese type ferrite, but where do
you buy ferrite permanent magnets with Mn in it?
I also found that there are magnets made of Manganese and Aluminium (Aluminum)
and often a bit of carbon, similar to Alnico I expect.


>
>         If you let me know what seems to be so interesting about this I
> can maybe de-mystify this for you.
>
>         The first questions are:
>
>         1]      Do you know what a magnetic amplifier IS?

In this case the patent seems to be referring to a magnetic device that acts as
an electrical amp more than as a magnetic amplifier.
I am not sure I fully understand what a magnetic amp is though.

>
>         2]      Have you gone to the McGraw Hill encyclopedia of Science and
> Technology to find OUT what a mag amp is?

No, but I don't think this is a mag amp, but an unpowered electrical amp
employing magnets.
It consists of two magnets in attraction, with a diamagnetic material between
the two magnets.
A coil is wound around it, 10 turns is about right for most frequencies, more
turns means more amplification but is less suitable at high frequencies.
If current is passed through the coil the magnetic field of the permanent magnet
can go from 470 gauss to over 1000 while the current is not nearly enough to
account for this.

"An increase in the electric current of the order of 10-8 amperes causes an
increase in the magnetic field density B in the order of 102 gauss"

"A receiving sensitivity of 180 decibels and an extremely low ghost range were
obtained in a weak electric field region in which the receiving sensitivity of a
Yagi
antenna was only 30 decibels."

Unless I am mistaken these two main actions of amplification of EM signals
without any input power, and an increase in the magnetic field of a permanent
magnet (more than double) well beyond what can possibly be accounted for by the
current is not achieved by normal mag amps and as far as I am aware should not
be possible.

I am also unsure if mag amps work at UHF frequencies with no circuitry other
than a coil and no input power.

See below for the text of the patent.

>
>
>         After you go to [2] and them follow all the "and please see"
> refs.... THEN you will probably be in a much much better place to make
> sense of the patent.
>
>         Mag amps are VERY cool   You can get gans of 100,000 to a millin
> from one stage !!!
>
>                                         J
>
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Berry wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to replicate a patent, In the patent the following magnet is
> > described:
> >
> > A high manganese content permanent magnet having a magnetic field
> > density of 470 gauss was used as the magnetic material
> >
> > What types of magnetic materials contain "A high percentage" of
> > manganese? And around that flux density?
> >
> > For those interested the patent is GB2075755
> >
> > http://ep.espacenet.com/espacenet/ep/en/e_net.htm?search5
> >
> > under "Publication Number" enter:
> > GB2075755
> >

SPECIFICATION
  A magnetic amplifier element
  Background of the invention 1. Field ofinvention
  This invention relates to amplifiers and more particularly magnetic amplifier
  elements.

  2. Prior art
  In the prior art their exists amplifier circuits. Such amplifier circuits are
  disadvantageous because they require active elements and a source of direct
  current power.

  Summary of the invention
  Accordingly it is the general object of the present invention to provide a
magnetic
  element which functions as an amplifier for electro-magnetic waves.

  In keeping with the principles of the present invention, the objects are
  accomplished by a unique magnetic amplifier element. Magnetic amplifier
element
  includes a magnetic material having at least one portion which is made from
  diamagnetic material. Furthermore, in one preferred use a director coil is
wound
  arround the magnetic amplifier element so that the magnetic amplifier element
can
  be utilized as an antenna, and in another preferred use, at least one drainage
coil
  is wound arround the magnetic amplifier element so that the magnetic amplifier

  element can be utilized as an noise limiter element.

  Brief description of the drawings
  The above mentioned principles and objects preservation will become more
  apparent with reference to the following description taken with the
accompanying
  drawings wherein like elements are given like reference numerals and in which:

  Figure 1 is one embodiment of a magnetic amplifier element in accordance with
  the teachings of the present invention;
  Figure 2 is a second embodiment of a magnetic amplifier element in accordance
  with the teachings of the present invention;
  Figure 3 is the third embodiment of a magnetic element in accordance with the
  teachings of the present invention;
  Figures 4(a), 4(b), 4(c) and 4(d) illustrate the embodiments of the magnetic
  amplifier element utilized as an antenna;
  Figure 5 is a conceptual figure illustrating the amplifying characteristics of
the
  magnetic element of the present invention used as an antenna; ;
  Figure 6 is an embodiment of an antenna utilizing a plurality of magnetic
  amplifying elements in accordance with the teachings of the present invention;

  Figure 7 is an additional embodiment of an antenna utilizing a plurality of
magnetic
  amplifier elements;
  Figure 8 is an additional embodiment of an antenna utilizing a plurality of
magnetic
  amplifier elements.

  Figures 9(a), 9(b) are embodiments of noise limiter elements utilizing an
  amplifying element in accordance with the teachings of the present invention;
  Figure 10 is circuit diagram illustrating a noise-limiter assembled into VHF
band
  tuning circuit.

  Detailed description of the invention
  Referring to Figures 1, 2 and 3 shown therein are three different embodiments
of a
  magnetic amplifier element 1 in accordance with the teachings of the present
  invention. Each of the embodiments has different characteristics are as a
result of
  the differences in shape.

  Referring to Figure 1, shown therein is a magnetic amplifier element 1 which
  consists of a magnetic material 11 which has a diamagnetic material 12 of a
  particular thickness x interposed into a portion of the magnetic material 11.
This
  magnetic amplifier element 1 of Figure 1 is rod shaped in the direction of the

  magnetic field of the magnetic material 11.

  Referring to Figure 2, shown therein is the case where the amplifier element 1
is
  C-shaped in the direction of the magnetic field. Referring to Figure 3, shown
  therein is the case where the shape of the magnetic element is an endless ring
in
  the direction of the magnetic field. From the above described Figures 1,2 and
3 it
  should be apparent that magnetic material can be divided up into a plurality
of
  sections by a plurality of diamagnetic materials 12.

  In practice, the magnetic material can be any material such as iron, ferites,
etc.
  However, the use of a permanent magnet having a magnetic field density of
about
  500 gauss is preferred. Also, the length x of the diamagnetic material 12
should
  be short compared to the length of the magnetic material 11. Furthermore, the
  diamagnetic material can be any diamagnetic material such as carbon, bismuth,
  copper, gold, silver, mercury, etc. However the use of carbon is preferred.
  Furthermore, the cross sectional shape of the diamagnetic element may have
  many shapes. Such shapes may include circular, flat, oblong, etc.

  The primary use of the magnetic amplifying element in accordance with the
  teachings of the present invention is as an amplifying element for electro
magnetic
  waves and can be best utilized in an antenna. If a rod shaped element shown in

  Figure 1 is substituted for at least one of the wave guide, director elements
or
  reflector elements of a Yagi antenna, the reception ability of the Yagi
antenna
  improves and the reception ability increases as more of the rod shaped
elements
  are utilized. Furthermore, the amplification function is enhanced when an
exciter
  coil is wound around the element and high frequency excitation applied. In the

  following antenna embodiments described below, the characteristics and
  construction will be explained and applicant will attempt to infer and explain
as
  much as possible about the magnetic amplification mechanism of the magnetic
  amplifying element 1 of the present invention.

  Referring to Figure 4(a), 4(b), 4(c) and 4(d), shown therein are an antenna
using
  the magnetic amplifier element and a director coil 2 wound on the magnetic
  amplifier element 1. When both ends of the director coil 2 are used as input
  terminals, the magnetic amplifying element 1 becomes a transmitting antenna.
  When both ends of the growth criteria are used as output terminals, the
magnetic
  amplifier element becomes a receiving antenna.

  In practice the director coil 2 should have about 10 turns. Furthermore, the
director
  coil 2 functions as a wave guide and also functions as an exciter of the
magnetic
  amplifier element 1. Furthermore, it is efficient to wind the director coil 2
as
  closely as possible to minimize the mutual winding effect. Furthermore, the
coil 2
  may be wound only on the magnetic material 11 but it is preferred to wind at
least
  a portion of the coil 2 on the diamagnetic material 12 and the best results
are
  obtained by winding one turn of the director coil 2 around the diamagnetic
material
  12. Furthermore, generally as the number of turns of the director coil 2
increases,
  the amplification increases but as will be explained later the number of turns
is
  related to the frequency characteristics and the directionality of the
antenna.

  As is apparent from the figures, magnetic materials 11 having different shapes
can
  be utilized.

  Furthermore the thickness x of the diamagnetic material 12 should be suitably
  small with respect to the magnetic material 11 to be effective but as stated
later,
  this factor influences the transmission and reception frequency
characteristics.

  An experiment was formed utilizing a magnetic amplifier element of the
following
  construction:
  (1 ) A high manganese content permanent magnet having a magnetic field density

  of 470 gauss was used as the magnetic material;
  (2) One piece of carbon having a thickness x less than several milimeters was
  utilized as the diamagnetic material;
  (3) The shape of the magnetic amplifier element 1 was flat rod shaped, the
width a
  was about 1.5 cm, and the length was about 6 cm;
  (4) The number of turns of the direction coil was 10.

  The above described magnetic amplifier element 1 was utilized in a Yaggi
antenna
  having a normal reception sensitivity without the magnetic amplifier element 1
of
  about 30 decibels. With the above magnetic amplifying element the reception
  sensitivity was increased to 90 decibels. In addition, a magnetic amplifier
element
  1 similar to that shown in Figure 1 (d) was utilized in the Yaggi antenna
described
  and again the reception sensitivity was increased similarly. Furthermore, the
  experiments were performed spanning from the AM band to the UHF band and
  good reception sensitivity was achieved no matter what frequency ban was
  utilized.

  Even though the applicant has not developed a comprehensive explanatory theory

  of the operation of the magnetic amplifier element 1 in accordance with the
  teachings of the present invention, he has attempted to at least
experimentally
  determine the phenomenon as it occurs. It has been experimentally determined
  that increased amplfication effects occur. In addition, during the
transmission or
  reception of electromagnetic waves, the magnetic field density of the magnetic

  material becomes usually high. For example, the magnetic field density of a
  magnetic material 11 which is normally 470 gauss may exceed 1,000 gauss.
  Furthermore, when viewing the characteristics of the magnetic element 1, it is

  apparent that a transmitted or received wave causes an extremely small
electric
  current to flow in the direct coil 2. This extremely small electric current
excites the
  magnetic amplifier element 1 and the magnetic field density increases to a
great
  extent.

  This situation is illustrated in Figure 5 (a). It has been determined
experimentally
  that an increase in the electric current 1 of the order of 10-8 amperes causes
an
  increase in the magnetic field density B in the order of 102 gauss.
Furthemore, as
  shown in Figure 5(b), an atmospheric electromagnetic wave received by the
  director coil 2 gives rise to an extremely weak electric current i. This
current in
  director coil 2 excites the magnetic amplifier element 1 and following the
  amplification relationship shown in Figure 5(a), a magnetic field is produced
and
  this magnetic field induces a directly amplified electric current in the
director coil
  2.

  Furthermore, the field data also causes amplification of the atmospheric
  electromagnetic waves and since the atmospheric waves are amplified by
  feedback in the director coil 2, an extremely high transmission or reception
variety
  is achieved.

  Additional experiments were performed using a plurality of magnetic amplifier
  elements 1 and such experiments will be described in relation to Figure 6 and
7.
  In the Figures, a plurality of antenna units 10 are utilized.-Each of the
antenna
  units 10 is a rod shaped magnetic amplifier 1. The antenna units 10 are
arranged
  in parallel and are maintained at a fixed separation by being fastened to an
  insulator shaft 61. In the situation using circular rod shaped amplifier
elements as
  shown in Figure 6, the amplification increases approximately 5 times that of
one
  element. That is to saw if two elements are utilized, the amplification is
about 2.5
  times that of one element. In addition, if three elements are used, the
amplification
  is about 5 times greater than that of one element.

  Referring to Figure 7, shown therin as another embodiment of antenna using a
  plurality of antenna units 10, wherein the magnetic poles of the magnetic
  amplifying element 1 point in the same direction and which utilize four or
more
  antenna units 10; Also as shown in Figure 7 the length of the magnetic
amplifier
  elements 10 decreases from one end to the other; For best results either the
  longest antenna until 10 or the second longest antenna unit 10 is to be used
as
  the transmitter-receiver element 20, but the choice of the second longest one
  gives the best stability. The relation between the lengths of the magnetic
amplifier
  1 is substantially the same as the relation between the lengths of the
elements of
  an ordinary Yagi antenna.

  By experimentation the inventor has determined that better results are
obtained by
  using four or five antenna units 10 as shown in Figures 7 having the second
  longest antenna unit 10 as the transmitter- receiving element 20 than an
antenna
  using four or five magnetic amplifier elements 1 of the same length as shown
in
  Figure 6. That is to say, in this case, each of the antenna units displays its
own
  amplification function while mutually influencing each other and increasing
the
  extent of amplification in somewhat the same manner as described in Figure 6.

  Referring to Figure 8, shown therein is an another embodiment of an antenna
  using a plurality of antenna units 10. The antenna of this embodiment is
formed by
  arranging magnetic amplifying elements 1 into a endless rectangular frame or
loop
  40 as is described below. In particular, two of the above-described antenna
units
  10 are provided so that the magnetic fields of the antena units 10 are
oriented in
  opposite direction and the longitudinal axes of the antenna units 10 are
parallel to
  each other. Two magnetized coupling members 50 are laterally installed at both

  ends of the two antenna units 10 so that the magnetic lines of force of the
  coupling magnetic members 50 connect perpendicularly with the magnetic lines
of
  force of the magnetic amplifying elements 1.

  If the antenna is constructed as described above, the magnetic lines of force
of the
  two magnetic amplifying elements 1 circle the en-dless rectangular frame 40.
As a
  result, the two magnetic amplifying elements 1 are connected in series.

  It has been determined that it is possible to obtain an antenna whose degree
of
  amplification is much higher than that of one utilizing a single antenna unit
10.

  Described below are measurements for an antenna in accordance with the
  teachings of the above embodiment which describes the conditions listed below.

  Conditions
  Magnetic parts 11 and 50: Permanent magnets with a magnetic flux density of
  approximately 470 gauss
  Diamagnetic parts 12: Carbon (thickness (X): approximately 3 mm)
  Director coils: 12 turns
  Size: Length 7.3 cm; width 4 cm
  Width (Y) of magnetic amplifying elements 1 and magnetic members 20: 1.2 cm
  Measurement results
  A receiving sensitivity of 180 decibels and an extremely low ghost range were
  obtained in a weak electric field region in which the receiving sensitivity of
a Yagi
  antenna was only 30 decibels.

  From experiments the operation and characteristics of the three types of
antennas
  are explained herein below.

  Regardless of whether a single antenna unti 10 or a plurality of antenna units
10
  are used, the cross sectional shape of the magnetic amplifier 1 has a large
  influence on the transmission-reception sensitivity. If conditions (for
example
  length, number of pieces of diamegnetic material, number of coil winders,
etc.) are
  the same and if the diameters p of the circle or the width a of the flat cross
section
  are the same (as shown in
  Figure 1) and both poles are separated by an air gap (i.e., in the case of a
rod
  shaped or C-shaped element 1), the flat shape is most effective.

  If conditions are the same, sensitivity increases in the order rod shaped,
endless
  ring or rectangularshaped, c-shaped. For the case of an endless ring-shaped or

  rectangular-shaped element 1 or 40, if two director coils 2 are wound as shown
in
  Figures 4(d), 4(e), and 8, the transmission reception sensitivity increases.
  Furthermore, the antenna utilizing the magnetic amplifer element of the
present
  invention not only exhibits good amplification characteristics but also the
antenna
  posesses exceptional directivity and the frequency characteristics can be
freely
  chosen. The directional angle of an antenna utilizing the magnetic
amplification
  element of the present invention is less than 40 degrees as measured
  experimentally.

  Factors influencing the transmission-reception frequency characteristics are
  considered to be the thickness of x of the diamagnetic material 12 and the
number
  of turns of coil 2. As the thickness of the diamagnetic material 12 increases,
the
  transmission-reception characteristics improve for high frequency signals and
as
  the number of coil windings decrease, the transmission-reception
characteristics
  also improve for high frequency signals.

  However connecting a low capacity frequency tuning condenser 3 to both ends of

  the direct coil 2 and changing this capacitance permits changing of the
frequency
  characteristics.

  If the magnetic amplifier element 1 having such a construction and
characteristics
  as described above is used as described below, while it naturally possesses a
  high-frequency amplification function, it may also function as a good noise
limiter.

  The noise limiter of the present invention is provided by winding one or more
  drainage coils 21 around the above-described magnetic amplifier element 1.

  Feferring to Figures 9(a) 9(b) shown therein are two embodiments in the
present
  noiselimiter. Figure 9(a) generally shows the case using a rog shaped magnetic

  amplifier element 1 having one piece of diamagnetic material 12 and having a
total
  length of several centimeters. Figure 9(b) illustrates the case of an endless
ring as
  magnetic amplifier element 1 having two pieces of diamagnetic matelial 12.

  Figure 10 is circuit diagram illustrating a noise limiter assembled into the
tuning
  circuit 4 of the recever.

  Figure 10 is examples applicable to receivers forthe VHF band. One of the
  drainage coils 2a carries both excitation and noise currents, and is connected
in
  parallel with the tuning circuit 4, while the other drainage coils 21 b,
21c,... have
  both ends grounded. As the number of grounded drainage coils 21 b, 21c,...
  increases the noise drainage effect increases. Condensers C1 C2, C3,... are
  introduced to permit adjustment of the tuning circuit 3 used in present day
  receivers. If the tuning characteristics are designed so as to match the
  noise-limiter element, such as condensers are unnecessary. Also, coils 42 are
  tuning coil.

  From experimentation it has been determined that the noise-limiting function
of the
  noise-limiter element of the present invention is somewhat better than the
prior art
  noise limiter circuit which uses a diode. The noise limiter element of the
present
  invention reduces the noise 40-50%. Also, the noise limiter of the present
  invention possess an amplification ratio of approximately 1.5 - 2 times
greater than
  that of a high-frequency amplification circuit using transistors.

  As explained above, the magnetic amplifier element of the present invention is

  considered to have the characteristics shown in Figure 5. In other words a
small
  change in electric current flowing through the excitation coil wound around
the
  magnetic element 1 causes a iarge change in magnetic field density.

  Therefore, it may be used as an antenna, etc. which posesses amplification
ability
  or in various high frequency elements or circuits. Also, it may function as a
good
  noise-limiter as explained above.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 11 19:37:10 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Manganese Magnets
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At 05:31 PM 4/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Berry wrote:
>
> > What types of magnetic materials contain "A high percentage" of
> > manganese? And around that flux density?
>
>I remember seeing somewhere that when manganese and bismuth are mixed, the
>alloy is ferromagnetic, even though the two metals are non-magnetic when
>pure.

Bill; Vo:

I am not certain about this particular alloy.  However.  Many of the magnet 
materials available are alloy from normally non responsive 
materials.  Niobium and Cobalt alloys are excellent examples.  I think that 
every material will accept magnetic coding if properly zapped.  Only the 
ones that are most commonly used for this have low enough reluctance to 
encode using current methods.



Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:10:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Paul Brown's Demise
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>Jed Rothwell wrote;



>I think we can make automobiles much safer with a combination of new 
>technology, better law-enforcement, and safety inspections. Highway 
>safety has improved tremendously over time,

You have to remember that Paul was driving a car that was almost 30 
years old, the industry has made significant improvements over that 
time. The biggest problem is the nut behind the wheel.

>
>People convicted of drunk driving should have their license 
>permanently revoked. This is the rule in Japan, and some some 
>European countries I think. Drunk drivers cause roughly 32% of fatal 
>accidents. People with revoked

Hey Jed, ever hear of rehabilitation? how about forgiveness? We live 
in a country in which a vehicle is a necessity inorder to get to work 
and shop.

In major metropolitan areas such as Atlanta, all highways & roads 
should be made into toll roads,

What about the tax on gasoline? IMHO, the roads are already toll roads.

is socialistic." I would make the speed limit on all urban highways 
55 mph, with

You're out attempting to promote your agenda of shutting down the 
highways again Jed. The only way you're going to get your agenda 
enforced is if you become the dictator.

-- 

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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 06:38:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Paul Brown's Demise
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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
wrote:
> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> 
> >What do you think we should use in place of
> automobiles? I do not ask this 
> >sarcastically, but honestly. What do you see the
> solution as?

> I would make the speed limit on all
> urban highways 55 mph, 
> with very strict, fully automatic enforcement. All
> cars should have 
> tamper-proof onboard computers. Anytime you exceed
> 55 mph for more than 30 
> seconds you should be issued an automatic citation
> of, say, $50. In Atlanta 
> people often drive at 70 mph, but the average speed
> is much lower, mainly 
> because there are so many traffic jams. Many of the
> traffic jams are caused 
> by people driving 70 mph and causing accidents. If
> we lower the maximum 
> speed and rationalize traffic with free market
> incentives, on average 
> everyone will travel faster. A 55 mph limit would
> drastically reduce fatal 
> accidents and delays caused by accidents.

I think that the speed limit is NOT the solution.
Instead we need to actually design our Highways and
cars properly. Highway design in North America is
absolutely horrible. That is because the roads we are
driving on are not designed to take the load we are
giving them, and they were designed for cars who
cannot handle high speeds.

My solutions:
- Multiple paths to get where-ever your going. These
will generally be low volume, high speed routes, and
the shear number of them should be so much that none
of them get much traffic.
- On board guidence computers. These will at first
give you the route, and let you do it, then eventually
get up to a standard where they could stear, and get
you where you want to go, at higher speeds than you
can react to. It will check the network for cars in
the city, or area what their path is and how close
they are, and judge your speed and route accordingly.
We have the processor power, we just need the wireless
internet technology a couple stages higher. All cars
without onboard computers will be banned.
- More public transport for cities that cannot
upgrade. If the city has no way of upgrading their
system, they should ban all roads and complete an
intricate public transport system, and have all
passing through traffic go overtop the city (or
underneith). Vancover is a good example of a city that
needs this.

Just my notes.


=====
__   __ _____ ___ ____    __    __   ____   ____
\ \ / // ___// _ | __ \   | \   | | /      /  _ \
 \ v // /__ / /_|| |_\ |  | |\  | | \__    | | | |
  / // /__ / ___ | ___ \  | | \ | | /      | |_| |
 /_//____//_/   ||_\  \_\ |_|  \|_| \____  \_____/
The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 06:17:25 2002
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Jed wrote:

Saving lives is always "worth it" but one has to do a
cost benefit analysis ...

Hi Jed,

We can no more apply a cost/benefit analysis to the 
"methanol as liquid fuel" question than we can to the
question of whether or not the U.S. should maintain 
military forces or to the question of whether or not
we should have a public education system.  These are
political decisions we make based on our desire to live
as a free people.

I have the suspicion that if humanity had made 
decisions based on cost/benefit analyses, we would still
be knapping flint.  The assassins who flew the planes
into the Twin Towers on 9-11-01 did not do a cost/benefit
analysis -- their hope of Paradise is beyond any price.
If we do not have a greater resolve, their medieval 
tyranny will win.

Incremental measures such as hybrid cars are good
intentions that will lead us to disaster -- a dollar short
and a day late.   We need to make a quantum jump, and 
changing from gasoline to methanol as our liquid fuel
is a practical and devastating counter-punch.

A dollar from anywhere in the world that buys Mideast
oil is a dollar that can, and probably will, be used
against us.  I hope we have the guts to change the world.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 06:22:41 2002
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Subject: Re: Paul Brown's Demise
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James Payne wrote:

>I think that the speed limit is NOT the solution.
>Instead we need to actually design our Highways and
>cars properly.

I think it would be impossible to physically rebuild the highways. There is 
no land left in major cities like Atlanta. You could not shut down the 
roads for year, or build a new set of road in parallel. On the other hand, 
you could install computers in the cars and sensors in the road. Anyway, 
why would anyone want to go faster than 55 mph? That brings you downtown in 
ten minutes or so. It is faster than than the average commuting speed. It 
would be an improvement, not a restriction.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 07:19:17 2002
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Subject: Re: Paul Brown's Demise
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Hey Jed, ever hear of rehabilitation? how about forgiveness?

I favor rehabilitation and forgiveness. I would provide treatment and let 
the driver out of jail after he serves his sentence. Forgiveness does not 
include letting the person drive again. Why should it? I am not going to 
risk my life on a drunk person's recovery! It would be like letting a 
person with untreatable epilepsy drive.


>We live in a country in which a vehicle is a necessity inorder to get to 
>work and shop.

I know many people who live and work without a car, including people with 
disabilities who cannot drive. They are not shut off from society. 
Naturally it costs money for cab fare, but owning a car isn't cheap either. 
If you live in a place with no taxis, you may have to move. That's a shame, 
but people are forced to move when they get sick, change jobs, divorce, or 
for many other reasons.


>What about the tax on gasoline? IMHO, the roads are already toll roads.

A tax would be fine. A fuel tax of $4 or $5 should be enough to cover the 
costs without the computer toll machines. However, the computers would have 
other uses, for example as GPS guides, and to monitor speed and issue 
automatic citations.

Some people balk at the idea of Big Brother machines issuing a citation 
every time you drive 30 mph in a 25 mph neighborhood, or run a stop sign 
while you gab on a cell phone and drink coffee. (Yes, I have seen that, 
many times!) I say you have no right to endanger me -- the perennial 
pedestrian. If we could somehow post a policemen on every corner, and issue 
tickets to every person who breaks the law, no one would call that an 
invasion of privacy. So why not do it with machines? If you do not want 
your name reported to the police, you should obey the law and stop trying 
to kill me.


>You're out attempting to promote your agenda of shutting down the highways 
>again Jed. The only way you're going to get your agenda enforced is if you 
>become the dictator.

You have it backward! The auto makers and the people who drive cars are the 
dictators, not me. They have destroyed our cities and land, poisoned our 
air, imposed a socialist transportation nightmare an us, and killed 40,000 
people every year for decades. They are the ones who are endangering the 
nation, bringing us to the brink of war with Iraq. Suppose cars and 
highways did not exist, and we had a sane, free-market based transportation 
system instead, with the same accident rate and on-time performance as 
privately owned railroads and airlines. Imagine someone proposes we throw 
it away, seize private property, pave over an area the size of Maryland, 
waste millions of hours in traffic jams, and slaughter more people than 
were killed in wars. People would say the plan is insane. They would be 
right. Our transportation system only seems reasonable because we are used 
to it, and because we lack the imagination to envision a better one.

This may seem a little off topic, but it is really about vision, which is 
dead on topic. We must try imagine how things might be. We must not accept 
the status quo, or the majority opinion. What appear to be radical 
proposals may actually return us to balanced, reasonable, traditional way 
of life. We must not assume that the future will be like the present, or 
nothing can be done about severe social problems. Radical changes are 
possible -- indeed, inevitable. Lack of vision and fear of change is what 
is holding back cold fusion, more than the technical challenges. Freeman 
Dyson wrote: ". . . [The] experiences of World War II made an indelible 
impression on people of my generation. At the bottom of our hearts we still 
believe you can have anything you want in five years if you need it badly 
enough and if you are prepared to slog your way through the barriers of 
confusion and incompetence to get it. . . . The accepted wisdom says that, 
no matter what we decide to do about economic problems, we cannot expect to 
see any substantial results [for 15 years]. The accepted wisdom is no doubt 
correct, if we continue to play the game by the rules of today. But anyone 
who lived through World War II knows that the rules can be changed very 
fast when the necessity arises."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 07:58:29 2002
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Aircraft are safer than cars and much faster too, you don't need to build
costly roads, computer controlled VTOL avrocar like vehicles, more direct
routes as "roads" in the sky can be at different heights and so can cross each
other.

Cars not traveling in the same direction would never get close to each other,
computer controlled traffic with the flexibility of roads in the air it would
be safe and the word traffic would lose all meaning.

People can work far away from where they live as speeds could get quite high,
roads could even be removed. (grow things in their place)
The world would look quite different without roads!

If the technology allows you could fly overseas in you car making the world a
very different place indeed.

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> James Payne wrote:
>
> >I think that the speed limit is NOT the solution.
> >Instead we need to actually design our Highways and
> >cars properly.
>
> I think it would be impossible to physically rebuild the highways. There is
> no land left in major cities like Atlanta. You could not shut down the
> roads for year, or build a new set of road in parallel. On the other hand,
> you could install computers in the cars and sensors in the road. Anyway,
> why would anyone want to go faster than 55 mph? That brings you downtown in
> ten minutes or so. It is faster than than the average commuting speed. It
> would be an improvement, not a restriction.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 08:27:13 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Pimentel book recommended
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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Incremental measures such as hybrid cars are good intentions that will 
>lead us to disaster -- a dollar short and a day late.

Naturally, they would not solve the problem permanently. But with a crash 
program in six years hybrid engines and other conservation measures could 
cut the U.S. oil consumption by half, making us self-sufficient again. That 
would last for 20 years or so, until we start to run out once and for all. 
Other countries would probably follow our example and buy our technology, 
putting OPEC out of business.


>We need to make a quantum jump, and changing from gasoline to methanol as 
>our liquid fuel is a practical and devastating counter-punch.

I do not think so. Methanol will have to be made from coal. There is no 
other source of raw material sufficient to meet our needs. Biomass could 
only contribute a small fraction. Coal supplies will last a long time at 
present consumption rates, but methanol production would increase 
consumption. It is not clear how long the coal would last in that case, but 
in any case we would only push off the crisis for a while, just as we would 
with hybrid engines. I think large scale methanol would cost much more than 
hybrid engines, and it would definitely produce more pollution.

It isn't an either / or choice. We can conserve and produce methanol. But 
conservation is more cost effective I think, so that is where most of the 
capital should be invested.


>I hope we have the guts to change the world.

Of course we have the guts! People survived millions of years of hell in 
the natural world. We invented technology giving us God-like powers. 
Americans survived the Civil War, the Great Depression and WWII. We could 
rebuild the planet practically overnight, end hunger, and eliminate 90% of 
pollution. We simply have to decide we want to do it. The only limits to 
man's power are his own faults: lack of imagination, fear, ignorance, 
misplaced self-destructive greed. Countless times in the past people 
transcended these faults. We are no less brave or capable than our 
ancestors were. I have no doubt we can do as much as they did,  and 
infinitely more.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 08:55:41 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Avrocars
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John Berry wrote:

>Aircraft are safer than cars and much faster too, you don't need to build
>costly roads, computer controlled VTOL avrocar like vehicles, more direct 
>routes as "roads" in the sky can be at different heights and so can cross 
>each other.

That's great stuff, and I hope it comes to pass, but it will take time. For 
the next 20 or 30 years we will have to live with automobile ground 
transportation, so let us improve it.

VTOL avrocars would be fine, but I think they must meet three criteria:

1. They must be quiet, or at least no more noisy at ground level than 
automobile traffic. Is that possible? Some people writing here said they 
are inherently noisy.

2. They must be non-polluting. Liquid hydrogen fuel or CF would be fine.

3. They must be completely computer controlled. Autopilot only. I do not 
think it would be feasible to allow thousands of people to pilot themselves 
around in dense air traffic, given the crazy behavior of people on the roads.

Here is the only thing that bothers me about avrocars, personally. I like 
to walk in the woods. I like to commune with nature, away from buildings, 
people, cars . . . I am afraid that with avrocars, everywhere you go, even 
in national parks and the Appalachian trail, you will look up and see a 
stream of traffic. And hear it! I hope these things fly so high on 
interstate routes they are barely noticeable.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 12:23:01 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Many disagree with P&P
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To be fair I should point out that many experts think there is enough 
biomass in the U.S. to generate a significant amount of fuel, and that 
methanol production would produce positive net energy, and it would be 
economically viable. I am now reading some papers about this in Renewable 
Energy (Highland Press, 1993), section 21. The authors reach radically 
different conclusions from Pimentel & Pimentel. These authors are engineers 
and P&P are biologists.

The situation is complicated, and difficult to summarize. For example, 
previously I said that coal gasification is not economical. I meant it 
would not be economical if the resulting fuel were burned in automotive 
ICE. On the other hand it is economical with engines designed for the 
purpose, such as gas turbines and fuel cells. For example:

coal => gas => gas turbine => electricity

. . . should more efficient, cost-effective and less polluting than:

coal, external combustion => steam turbine => electricity

The former is better even with the extra overhead from gas conversion. Some 
of this conversion can be done with the waste heat from the generator.

Interestingly, this path:

CF => central electricity => hydrogen locally generated => conventional ICE 
=> transportation

. . . would cost roughly as much as we pay now, I think, because it uses 8 
times more raw energy than gasoline with ICE. It would eliminate pollution, 
however.

This would save a ton of money:

CF => central electricity => H2 => fuel cell => transportation

This is the cheapest of all, I expect:

CF small scale, in the car => transportation

I base these estimates on the NREL Hydrogen Program Plan, which shows 
similar paths with zero-cost fuel in more detail, such as PV and wind => 
hydrogen.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 12:32:04 2002
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Subject: Re: Many disagree with P&P
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I wrote: "Renewable Energy (Highland Press, 1993)." Meant "Island Press." 
This is a huge book, 1160 pages, somewhat outdated. It is amazing how 
different the estimates & conclusions are compared to P&P and other 
sources. You have to be careful about believing or rejecting authors. Even 
the most basic facts, such as the amount of available biomass, are disputed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 13:21:36 2002
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:18:48 -0700
Subject: New Navy Report Supports Cold Fusion
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

A new official report just out, prepared by the U.S. Navy, is strongly
supportive of cold fusion research:

TECHNICAL REPORT 1862, February 2002
Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System
(In two volumes)

It is a public document with unlimited distribution, so we are posting below
some of the introductory material in each of the volumes.

Infinite Energy will be making copies of the full report -- hard copy, CD
version, and perhaps web site posting. We'll keep you posted about the
availability of the full document.

I wish to highlight in particular this statement from the Foreword:

"As I write this Foreword, California is experiencing rolling blackouts due
to power shortages. Conventional engineering, planned ahead, could have
prevented these blackouts, but it has been politically expedient to ignore
the inevitable. We do not know if Cold Fusion will be the answer to future
energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon
through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It is
time that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever
benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time for
government funding organizations to invest in this research.

Dr. Frank E. Gordon
Head, Navigation and Applied Sciences Department
Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego"

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975


***********
TECHNICAL REPORT 1862, February 2002

Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System

Volume 1: A Decade of Research at Navy Laboratories

S. Szpak, P. A. Mosier-Boss, Editors

Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited

SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego

SSC San Diego
San Diego, CA 92152-5001

SSC SAN DIEGO
San Diego, California 92152-5001

P. A. Miller, CAPT, USN Commanding Officer

R. C. Kolb, Executive Director


ADMINISTRATIVE INFORMATION

    The work described in this report was performed for the Office of Naval
Research through the collaboration of Space and Naval Warfare Systems
Center, San Diego (SSC San Diego); the Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons
Division, China Lake; and the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL).

Released by
G. W. Anderson, Head
Applied Research & Technology Branch

Under authority of R. H. Moore, Head, Environmental Sciences Division


Contributing authors (in alphabetical order)

Dr. Pamela A. Mosier-Boss
Code D363
Spawar Systems Center San Diego
San Diego, CA 92152-5000
(619) 553-1603; FAX (619) 553-1269; e-mail bossp spawar.navy.mil

Dr. Scott R. Chubb
Code 7252
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC 20375-5343
(202) 767-5270; FAX (202) 767-3303; e-mail scott.chubb nrl.navy.mil

Professor Martin Fleischmann, F.R.S.
Bury Lodge, Duck Street
Tisbury, Salisbury, Wilts SP3 6LJ
United Kingdom
FAX (+44) 1747 870845

Dr. M. Ashraf Imam
Code 6320
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC 20375-5343
(202) 767-2185; FAX (202) 767-2623 e-mail imam angil.nrl.navy,mil

Dr. Melvin H. Miles
Department of Chemistry
Middle Tennessee State University
Murfreeboro, TN 37132
(615) 904-8558; e-mail mmiles mtsu.edu

Dr. Stanislaw Szpak
3498 Conrad Ave
San Diego, CA 92117
(858) 272-9401


FOREWORD

Twelve years have passed since the announcement on 23 March 1989 by
Professors Fleischmann and Pons that the generation of excess enthalpy
occurs in electrochemical cells when palladium electrodes, immersed in D2O
+ LiOH electrolyte, are negatively polarized. The announcement, which came
to be known as "Cold Fusion," caused frenzied excitement. In both the
scientific and news communities, fax machines were used to pass along
fragments of rumor and "facts." (Yes, this was before wide spread use of
the internet. One can only imagine what would happen now.) Companies and
individuals rushed to file patents on yet to be proven ideas in hopes of
winning the grand prize. Unfortunately, the phenomenon described by
Fleischmann and Pons was far from being understood and even factors
necessary for repeatability of the experiments were unknown. Over the next
few months, the scientific community became divided into the "believers"
and the "skeptics." The "believers" reported the results of their work with
enthusiasm that at times overstated the significance of their results. On
the other hand, many "skeptics" rejected the anomalous behavior of the
polarized Pd/D system as a matter of conviction, i.e., without analyzing
the presented material and always asking "where are the neutrons?" Funding
for research quickly dried up as anything related to "Cold Fusion" was
portrayed as a hoax and not worthy of funding. The term "Cold Fusion" took
on a new definition much as the Ford Edsel had done years earlier.

By the Second International Conference on Cold Fusion, held at Villa Olmo,
Como, Italy, in June/July 1991, the altitude toward Cold Fusion was
beginning to take on a more scientific basis. The number of
flash-in-the-pan "believers" had diminished, and the "skeptics" were
beginning to be faced with having to explain the anomalous phenomenon,
which by this time had been observed by many credible scientists throughout
the world. Shortly after this conference, the Office of Naval Research
(ONR) proposed a collaborative effort involving the Naval Command, Control
and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Division, which subsequently has
become the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego (SSC San
Diego); the Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake; and the
Naval Research Laboratory (NRL). The effort's basic premise was to
investigate the anomalous effects associated with the prolonged charging of
the Pd/D system and "to contribute in collegial fashion to a coordinated
trilaboratory experiment."

Each laboratory took a different area of research. At San Diego, our goal
was to understand the conditions that initiate the excess heat generation
(the Fleischmann-Pons effect) and the search for evidence that indicates
their nuclear origin. To eliminate the long incubation times (often weeks),
Drs. Stan Szpak and Pam Boss decided to prepare the palladium electrodes by
the co-deposition technique. Initially, they concentrated on tritium
production and the monitoring of emanating radiation. More recently, they
extended their effort to monitoring surface temperature via IR imaging
technique and showed the existence of discrete heat sources randomly
distributed in time and space. This discovery may prove to be a significant
contribution to the understanding of the phenomenon.

At China Lake, Dr. Miles and his collaborators showed that a correlation
exists between the rate of the excess enthalpy generation and the quantity
of helium in the gas stream. Such a correlation is the direct evidence of
the nuclear origin of the Fleischmann-Pons effect.

The research at NRL was directed toward the metallurgy of palladium and its
alloys and the theoretical aspects of the Fleischmann-Pons effect. In
particular, Dr. Imam prepared Pd/B alloys that Dr. Miles used in
calorimetric experiments. It was shown that these alloys yielded
reproducible excess enthalpy generation with minimal incubation times
(approximately 1 day). The theoretical work of Dr. Chubb contributed much
to our understanding of the Fleischmann-Pons effect.

Although funding for Cold Fusion ended several years ago, progress in
understanding the phenomenon continues at a much slower pace, mostly
through the unpaid efforts of dedicated inquisitive scientists. In
preparation of this report the authors spent countless hours outside of
their normal duties to jointly review their past and current contributions,
including the "hidden" agenda that Professor Fleischmann pursued for
several years in the 1980s when he was partially funded by ONR. Special
thanks are extended to all scientists who have worked under these
conditions, including those who contributed to this report and especially
to Professor Fleischmann.

As I write this Foreword, California is experiencing rolling blackouts due
to power shortages. Conventional engineering, planned ahead, could have
prevented these blackouts, but it has been politically expedient to ignore
the inevitable. We do not know if Cold Fusion will be the answer to future
energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon
through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It is
time that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever
benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time for
government funding organizations to invest in this research.

Dr. Frank E. Gordon
Head, Navigation and Applied Sciences Department
Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego


TABLE OF CONTENTS

1. THE EMERGENCE OF COLD FUSION
S. Szpak and P. A. Mosier-Boss

2. EVENTS IN A POLARIZED Pd+D ELECTRODES PREPARED BY CO-DEPOSITION TECHNIQUE
S. Szpak and P. A. Mosier-Boss

3. EXCESS HEAT AND HELIUM PRODUCTION IN PALLADIUM AND PALLADIUM ALLOYS
Melvin H. Miles

4. ANALYSIS OF EXPERIMENT MC-21: A CASE STUDY
Part I: Development of Diagnostic Criteria
Part II: Application of Diagnostic Criteria
S. Szpak, P. A. Mosier-Boss, M. H. Miles, M. A. Imam and M. Fleischmann

5. AN OVERVIEW OF COLD FUSION THEORY
Scott Chubb

APPENDIX: LISTING OF PUBLICATIONS/PRESENTATIONS RELATED TO COLD FUSION BY
NAVY LABORATORIES

STAFF

************
VOLUME #2

TECHNICAL REPORT 1862
February 2002

Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System
Volume 2: Simulation of the Electrochemical Cell (ICARUS) Calorimetry

S. Szpak
P. A. Mosier-Boss
Editors

Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited

SPAWAR
Systems Center San Diego

SSC San Diego
San Diego, CA 92152-5001

FOREWORD

The calorimetry of any electrochemical cell involves two type of
activities: data collection and data evaluation. The required data are the
cell potential-time and cell temperature-time series. The evaluation is
based on conservation laws subject to constraints dictated by cell design
and the adapted experimental procedure.

Volume 2 of this report deals with the modeling and simulation of the
Dewar-type calorimeter. It was written by Professor Fleischmann to provide
an authoritative discussion of the calorimetry of electrochemical cells.
The emphasis is on the interpretation of data and the accuracy of the
determination of the excess enthalpy generation via the appropriate
selection of heat transfer coefficients. The discussion of the calorimetry
of the Dewar-type cells is presented in the form of technical report for a
number of reasons, among them: (I) its length would likely prohibit
publication in topical journals, (ii) to clarify misunderstandings
regarding the principles of calorimetry as applied to electrochemical cell
in general and to the cell employed by Fleischmann and his collaborators,
in particular.

S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier-Boss, eds.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

INTRODUCTION
SYMBOLS USED

1. THE EVOLUTION OF THE ICARUS DATA EVALUATION STRATEGIES
2. DEFINITION OF THE HEAT TRANSFER COEFFICIENTS
3. DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS GOVERNING THE BEHAVIOR OF THE CALORIMETERS:
SIMULATIONS OF THE TEMPERATURE-TIME SERIES
4. SPECIFICATION OF THE ICARUS-1 EXPERIMENTAL PROTOCOLS AND DATA EVALUATION
PROCEDURES
5. EVALUATION OF THE "RAW DATA" GENERATED USING THE SIMULATION DESCRIBED IN
SECTION 4
6. EVALUATION OF A MEASUREMENT CYCLE FOR    A "BLANK EXPERIMENT" USING AN
ICARUS-2 SYSTEM
7. ASSESSMENT OF THE SPECIFICATION OF THE ICARUS-1 EXPERIMENTAL PROTOCOLS
AND DATA

EVALUATION PROCEDURES

REFERENCES
FIGURES
TABLES

INTRODUCTION

Apart from some fragmentary investigations, primarily related to the study
of the self-discharge of batteries, there exists no well defined set of
studies in the field of the electrochemical calorimetry. We note that such
studies would allow the investigation of the thermal behavior of a wide
range of reactions, especially irreversible processes. Thus, the
establishment of an accurate model of an experiment is very important.
However, as this aspect is not generally understood, we felt it necessary
to produce this document.

In spite of its length, this volume only covers the analysis of a data set
generated by calculation and one measurement cycle for a "blank
experiment." We believe that it is very important to produce a detailed
analysis and account (as far as is possible at this stage) of the
methodology which we adopted. This is especially important in view of the
misleading comments which have been made about the calorimetry of the Pd/D
system. Taken at face value, one must believe that the workers concerned do
not understand the difference between differential and integral
coefficients, the disadvantages of differentiating "noisy" data as compared
to integrating such data, the differences between the precision and
accuracy of data evaluations, the recognition of "negative" and "positive
feedback," the analysis of cooling curves, etc. They do not understand
relaxation nor recognize the presence of strange attractors and the way in
which the effects of such complications can be circumvented. [1]

It is relevant here to reflect on the precision and accuracy of the
experiments. Of course, if the precision is high, then there will be no
difficulty in interpreting changes in the rates of excess enthalpy
generation as small as 1 mW at the 10-sigma level. [2]. Of course, the
question of the magnitude of the errors raises three further important
questions: (I) what error limits are required so as to be able to detect
excess enthalpy generation at an adequate level of statistical
significance? (ii) what is the difference (if any) between the experiments
carried out with ICARUS systems and ICARUS lookalikes and with other types
of calorimetry? (iii) how can one assess the error limits of a given piece
of instrumentation?

The answer is that one simply stops the development of the methodology when
one is able to make an adequate set of measurements. We note here that this
particular specification is itself dependent on the physical size of the
systems being investigated as well as the chosen operating conditions. In
our particular investigation the limit was certainly reached when the
errors had been reduced to the 0.01% level. Naturally, the first question
impacts on the second and we note that it is the use of less precise and
accurate calorimetric methods which has bedeviled so much of the research
in this field. The reason is that with the use of less precise/accurate
methods, it becomes impossible to monitor the build-up of excess enthalpy
generation. This then brings us to the third question and the answer to
this is exactly with the methods outlined in this document, at least as far
as isoperibolic calorimetry is concerned (although it is not very difficult
to specify improvements in those methods!). [3] It is relevant that
although errors had undoubtedly been made in setting up these experiments,
the detailed data analyses had also shown the way in which such errors
could be allowed for. [4]

To reiterate, we considered it necessary to produce this document for the
following reasons: Firstly, it is always essential to determine the
Instrument Function (or of a parameter or sets of parameters which define
the Instrument Function) and to validate the methods of data analysis. Such
validation is best done using simulated/calculated data. Secondly, one
needs to see the extent to which "blank" experiments conform to
expectations. Thirdly, one needs to investigate the ways in which methods
of data analysis may fail.

Footnotes:

(l.) Of course, it is possible that the researchers concerned do not
understand any of these matters, but what is so remarkable is that they
have failed to understand these topics even when they have been described
to them.

(2) However, the high precision of the instrumentation (relative errors
below 0.01%) has been converted into a 10% error by the group at NHE. It is
hard to see how anybody can make such an assertion while still keeping a
straight face. If the errors were as high as this, then it would be
impossible to say anything sensible about calorimetry - for that matter, it
would remove one of the main planks of scientific methodology

(3) The answer to this question brings us to very interesting further lines
of enquiry which can be summarized by the question: "why is it that NHE
have never made any sets of raw data for blank experiments available for
further analysis?" If one considers this question in a naive way, then one
would say that there can hardly be any reason for not releasing data sets
which do not show any generation of excess enthalpy!

(4) Instead of seeking to establish the correct way(s) of calibrating the
systems, the group at NHE used the procedure leading to (k^',0 R)362,
probably coupled to timing errors in the calibration pulse which they did
not allow for. Needless to say, this produced nonsensical results which
they used as a justification for substituting an invalid method of data
analysis. Moreover, this invalid method of data analysis was applied to
just two experiments, regarded as being typical, although the fact that
there were malfunctions in these experiments has also been pointed out.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:10 2002
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Subject: Proposals not radical considering the 9/11 attack
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One last thought about some of these ideas I have tossed out regarding 
traffic and conservation. They may seem radical and utopian, or a Big 
Brother invasion of privacy. But consider what Freeman Dyson said about 
WWII. Suppose there were two or three more attacks on the scale of 9/11, or 
-- God forbid -- a nuclear attack on a U.S. city. People would be ready to 
take extreme measures. I do not think this administration will do anything 
to conserve energy or hurt the oil industry, but some other administration 
might. It might even allow research on cold fusion within the Federal 
establishment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 14:04:32 2002
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"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> A new official report just out, prepared by the U.S. Navy, is strongly
> supportive of cold fusion research:
> 
> TECHNICAL REPORT 1862, February 2002
> Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System
> (In two volumes)

This is great news!  I wonder how RP will take it.

These reports are available on the web at:

Vol.I, size unknown

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/tr1862-vol1.pdf

Vol. II, 178 pgs, 42,810 kbytes

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/tr1862-vol2.pdf

I had trouble getting Vol. I to d/l.  The files are LARGE.

Terry

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Vol.I, size unknown
>
>http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/tr1862-vol1.pdf
. . .

>I had trouble getting Vol. I to d/l.  The files are LARGE.

Did you finally get it? I think it has pooped out. It is taking forever 
with my ADSL connection. Maybe we should send their sysop a message.

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Did you finally get it? I think it has pooped out. It is taking forever
> with my ADSL connection. Maybe we should send their sysop a message.

No, it seems to be a problem on their end.  I tried two different
browsers (IE and Netscape), tried rebooting, and tried a
different machine.

(It's probably a Park conspiracy <G>)

Terry

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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > Did you finally get it? I think it has pooped out. It is taking forever
> > with my ADSL connection. Maybe we should send their sysop a message.
> 
> No, it seems to be a problem on their end.  I tried two different
> browsers (IE and Netscape), tried rebooting, and tried a
> different machine.

Okay, I got it.

Don't try to display the report.  Just right click on the URL and
do a save as . . .

Apparently, it has a flaw that will not autolaunch Acrobat.

BTW, the first volume is much smaller (<4MByte).

Terry

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Subject: Documents appear to be unavailable
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Okay, Terry figured out how to get these documents. Go to the parent directory:

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/

. . . do a right click on the filenames, and download. #1 has a flaw that 
will not launch Acrobat.

Acrobat reports several other flaws when reading #1, such as "Insufficient 
data for an image" on page 8.

These are lousy quality scans, too. If I get the hardcopy I will rescan 
with my autofeed scanner and provide better copies on request.

- Jed

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 m>
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The Navy librarian, Edith Ratliff <ratliff spawar.navy.mil>, tells me she 
has no trouble reading File #1 with Acrobat 4. I cannot see many of the 
pages using Ver. 5. It is not backward compatible, evidently.

Anyway, what I can see looks interesting! Especially the part about 
infra-red radiation, and x-rays, in #1.

As I said, I'll see if I can make a better version of this. Someone is 
supposed to be sending me a hardcopy. Individual .jpg files of pages might 
be the ticket, rather than .pdf.

- Jed

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	What are these documents about?



On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Okay, Terry figured out how to get these documents. Go to the parent directory:
> 
> http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/
> 
> . . . do a right click on the filenames, and download. #1 has a flaw that 
> will not launch Acrobat.
> 
> Acrobat reports several other flaws when reading #1, such as "Insufficient 
> data for an image" on page 8.
> 
> These are lousy quality scans, too. If I get the hardcopy I will rescan 
> with my autofeed scanner and provide better copies on request.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 13 08:31:15 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, James Payne <danewmoon@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Time travel?
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:29:22 -0400
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On Tuesday 09 April 2002 00:36, James Payne wrote:
> Whoa... this is a little bit big of a topic.
>
> My response follows inline.
> --- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>
> wrote:
> > Quote from article:
> >
> > But Alan Guth, a physics professor at MIT who has
> > studied the theory of
> > time machines, says he isn't sure it's even
> > theoretically possible to
> > travel through time. As far as whether time travel
> > is a possibility, he
> > says: ''Definitely not within our lifetimes.''
>
> That is from several theories, the last one I heard
> about using Antimatter to survive a wormhole.
>
> > Um . . . If it can be done and you can travel back
> > far enough, it will be
> > done within EVERYONE'S lifetimes. For example,
> > suppose someone invents the
> > machine in the year 3002 and brings one back 1000
> > years . . .
>
> That brings up a point. If the invention is already
> invented, why would they invent it in 3002?
>
> --------
>
> As for going back in time and making all sorts of
> money, I am not sure if that would work. Nobody is. I
> doubt that you can go back in time and effect a
> decision you made, cause why you would you go back in
> time and change it once you've made the right
> decision? Creating a nice endless loop.
>
> As for visitors from the future, ever wonder why there
> is always are several busloads of Oriental people at
> every single National, Provincial, and State Park?
> What about the endless supply of other tourists? :)

We have been calling time a fourth dimension when maybe
it is not.  Maybe it has its own dimensionality and itself has
3 or more.......idle speculation.  Suppose in a kind of multiverse,
all times and infinite timelines exist for every point in space.
No paradox then, a time traveler could simply, to quote 
Thomas Wolfe, 'Not go Home Again'.

Standing Bear

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Jack wrote:

We need to make a quantum jump, and changing from
gasoline to methanol as our liquid fuel is a practical
and devastating counter-punch.

Jed wrote:

I think large scale methanol would cost much more than
hybrid engines, and it would definitely produce more
pollution.

It isn't an either / or choice. We can conserve and produce
methanol. But conservation is more cost effective I think,
so that is where most of the capital should be invested.

Jack writes:

"CF small scale, in the car => transportation" is the best
approach; but I have learned over the years that timing is
everything.  Almost before we notice it there will likely
be a Unocal pipeline across Afghanistan attempting to carry
oil from Kazakhstan to the Port of Karachi in Pakistan.
This pipeline will be defended with American lives in a
horrible war of attrition.

Meanwhile, the medieval tyrants of the Mideast will
use their hired assassins (Al Qaeda) and their deluded
fanatic tools to hit us again and again with weapons
and organization purchased with oil dollars.  They have
finally concluded that they can not coexist with us and
our science and democracy.  It is their sacred duty to
destroy us.

Jed wrote:

To be fair I should point out that many experts think
there is enough biomass in the U.S. to generate a
significant amount of fuel, and that methanol production
would produce positive net energy, and it would be
economically viable. I am now reading some papers about
this in Renewable Energy (Island Press, 1993), section
21. The authors reach radically different conclusions from
Pimentel & Pimentel. These authors are engineers and P&P
are biologists.

Jack writes:

I'm all in favor of using biomass and methanol hybrid
engines, but we don't have the time to develop these
technolgies before we face political disaster.  The
methanol conversion proposal calls for no more change than
valving and fuel injection (carburation) along the lines of
the cars that have used methanol in the Indianapolis 500.

Jed wrote:

... Previously I said that coal gasification is not
economical. I meant it would not be economical if the
resulting fuel were burned in automotive ICE. On the
other hand it is economical with engines designed for the
purpose, such as gas turbines and fuel cells. For example:

coal => gas => gas turbine => electricity

. . . should more efficient, cost-effective and less
polluting than:

coal, external combustion => steam turbine => electricity

The former is better even with the extra overhead from
gas conversion. Some of this conversion can be done with
the waste heat from the generator.

Jack writes:

Again, this is a worthy development goal; but it is long
term.  We don't have the time to wait for it.  We know now
how to make cars with Internal Combustion Engines (ICE),
and we know how to drive into "gas" stations and fill the
fuel tanks of these cars.

Jed wrote:

Interestingly, this path:

CF => central electricity => hydrogen locally generated =>
conventional ICE => transportation

. . . would cost roughly as much as we pay now, I think,
because it uses 8 times more raw energy than gasoline with
ICE. It would eliminate pollution, however.

This would save a ton of money:

CF => central electricity => H2 => fuel cell =>
transportation

This is the cheapest of all, I expect:

CF small scale, in the car => transportation

I base these estimates on the NREL Hydrogen Program Plan,
which shows similar paths with zero-cost fuel in more
detail, such as PV and wind => hydrogen.

Hi Jed,

I would like to see development proceed in all these areas;
but such development efforts should be in parallel with
immediate conversion from gasoline to methanol as our
liquid fuel.

If we have the will to do this, then paths such as "coal
=> gas => gas turbine => electricity" will become more
attractive because we will already have replaced Mideast
oil with American coal.

Development of processes to make methanol from biomass
should also be done in parallel.  Perhaps the oldest
process to make methanol is a biomass process: the
destructive distillation of wood, giving methanol the
alternative name "wood alcohol."  Fast growing poplars
on tree farms could recycle the CO2 and provide jobs
for Americans.

Let's avoid the trap that makes "the best the enemy of
the good."

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 13 11:20:06 2002
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Subject: Re: Many disagree with P&P
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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Meanwhile, the medieval tyrants of the Mideast will use their hired 
>assassins (Al Qaeda) and their deluded fanatic tools to hit us again and 
>again with weapons and organization purchased with oil dollars. . . .

Perhaps that is true. I wouldn't know. In any case, I do not think this 
administration will do anything to reduce oil consumption, such as a crash 
program for coal gassification (methanol). Even if it did, that would take 
5 or 10 years to implement. Hybrid motors could be brought on line much 
sooner. If everyone drove one, the U.S. would not need to import oil. That 
accomplishes the same thing as methanol production, and it also cuts air 
pollution by a huge factor. Methanol would add to air pollution and global 
warming. The Japanese say they can ramp up produce hundreds of thousands of 
hybrid cars a year in 2 years. In an emergency I suppose they would be 
willing to license the technology to U.S. companies, or sell motors.


>coal, external combustion => steam turbine => electricity
>
>The former is better even with the extra overhead from
>gas conversion. Some of this conversion can be done with
>the waste heat from the generator.
>
>Jack writes:
>
>Again, this is a worthy development goal; but it is long
>term.  We don't have the time to wait for it.

This would take less time than large scale production & distribution of 
automotive methanol. It is much simpler, and it requires no new 
infrastructure. The coal is already shipped to power plants.

Actually, for automotive applications, large supplies of natural gas are 
already available, and U.S. automakers have extensive experience using 
natural gas in bus and small truck engines. We do not have a 100 year 
supply, but we have enough for a 10 year emergency, while things like 
hydrogen and CF are developed.

In the event of a dire emergency, such a full scale war or several large 
terrorist attacks, gasoline could be rationed. We would take emergency 
steps such as carpooling and ride sharing in convoys organized by computers 
and protected by police, and we would set up telecomputing from satellite 
offices on an emergency basis, the way people did in New York after 9/11. I 
expect U.S. consumers could cut their gasoline consumption by half, easily, 
and still get to work. I think we would discover this is actually easier 
and cheaper for everyone, since it would eliminate traffic jams and it 
would get everyone to work faster. We should have done things like this 50 
years ago. Gas rationing was in place during WWII yet employment and 
productivity soared. Also, during WWII all domestic automobile production 
was stopped for four years. We could shut down the automobile factories for 
two years while they retooled to make hybrid cars and all-electric cars. We 
would survive.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 13 17:12:42 2002
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Standing Bear wrote:

> > As for going back in time and making all sorts of
> > money, I am not sure if that would work. Nobody is. I
> > doubt that you can go back in time and effect a
> > decision you made, cause why you would you go back in
> > time and change it once you've made the right
> > decision? Creating a nice endless loop.
> >
> > As for visitors from the future, ever wonder why there
> > is always are several busloads of Oriental people at
> > every single National, Provincial, and State Park?
> > What about the endless supply of other tourists? :)


> Standing Bear wrote:

> We have been calling time a fourth dimension when maybe
> it is not.  Maybe it has its own dimensionality and itself has
> 3 or more.......idle speculation.  Suppose in a kind of multiverse,
> all times and infinite timelines exist for every point in space.
> No paradox then, a time traveler could simply, to quote
> Thomas Wolfe, 'Not go Home Again'.
> 
> Standing Bear

Interesting.  A fundamental part of Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System is
that
time is three dimensional, but we're traversing a 1 dimensional path
through it.
http://www.reciprocalsystem.com

It is also known now that the past is editable from numerous
experiments--
all we have is "now".  There are an infinite number of pasts that can
lead to
the state vector we know of as "now".   There are also experiments that
show
that "we each have our own private holodeck".  The commonality of
reality
isn't nearly as large as it seems.  Furthermore, we can edit the "now"
state vector
with wild abandon :-) .

See:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/
http://www.nidsci.org/articles/articles4.html

and numerous others.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 14 07:19:23 2002
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On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:29:22AM -0400, Standing Bear wrote:
> 
> We have been calling time a fourth dimension when maybe
> it is not.  Maybe it has its own dimensionality and itself has
> 3 or more.......idle speculation.  Suppose in a kind of multiverse,
> all times and infinite timelines exist for every point in space.
> No paradox then, a time traveler could simply, to quote 
> Thomas Wolfe, 'Not go Home Again'.
> 

More plausable is that time is imaginary, that is what we call real time
is actually imaginary time.  (x,y,z,it)

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:14 2002
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Subject: new SC-gravity paper
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0204012

Regards, hamdi ucar


General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract
gr-qc/0204012 

From: Chiao <chiao socrates.berkeley.edu>
Date (v1): Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:20:03 GMT   (46kb)
Date (revised v2): Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:32:09 GMT   (46kb)

Superconductors as transducers and antennas for gravitational and electromagnetic
radiation

Authors: Raymond Y. Chiao
Comments: 21 pages, 3 figures, abbreviated writeup of my March 23, 2002 Wheeler Symposium lecture, and book chapter for Wheeler Festschrift

  
  Type II superconductors will be considered as macroscopic quantum gravitational antennas,
  which can simultaneously also be used as efficient transducers for converting
  electromagnetic radiation into gravitational radiation, and vice versa. A Meissner-like effect,
  in which the Lense-Thirring field associated with a gravity wave is expelled from the interior of
  the superconductor, is predicted. An analysis of a process of natural impedance matching in
  type II superconductors such as YBCO based on the Ginzburg-Landau theory yields an
  estimate of the transducer conversion efficiency of the order of unity upon reflection of the
  wave. Thus efficient emitters and receivers of gravitational radiation can be constructed at
  microwave frequencies. A simple, Hertz-like experiment using YBCO and 12 GHz
  microwaves is being performed to test these ideas. Results of this experiment will be
  reported elsewhere. (PACS nos.: 03.65.Ud, 04.30.Db, 04.30.Nk, 04.80.Nn, 74.60-w, 74.72.Bk) 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 15 07:31:46 2002
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:14:31 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Will scan Navy document at 300 dpi
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I am supposed to receive a copy of the Navy report soon. I will scan with 
an autofeed scanner at 300 dpi b/w for text, and grayscale for pages with 
figures. I will provide copies on request. I prefer to use the PaperPort 
tool that generates compressed pages in a self-displaying "Miniviewer.exe" 
file. Some people feel uneasy about executing .exe
files sent by e-mail, and the program would probably not work on Macs. This 
program condenses the 10 page paper by Mallette and Hanson to 862 KB. That 
would make the 179 page paper by Fleischmann 15 MB long. That is fine for a 
CD-ROM but not good for e-mail distribution. Perhaps I can leave out the 
data pages, and recommend the user download them from the Navy.

I have a handy document about energy efficiency and conversion. It is 
published by NREL, 1992, "Hydrogen Program Plan." Appendix A, "Energy 
Pathways," is particularly helpful. I just noticed it has no copyright. I 
could scan Appendix A if anyone is interested. Contact me by direct e-mail.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 15 08:56:40 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Message from Navy / Can anyone read TeX files?
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Here is a message from E. Ratliff:

We have re-created the pdf files of TR 1862. We have also placed native 
file formats on line. Try again by accessing the files at URL:

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/

Position your cursor on the file name and use the right mouse button to 
save the file to your disk.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Can anyone read these TEX file formats? I can't. The files are very small. 
It looks like they do not include figures.

Document #1 in .ps format is 61 MB.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 15 10:45:01 2002
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Subject: Re: Message from Navy / Can anyone read TeX files?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:42:06 +0400
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Hi Jed,

Free TEX reader for Windows is available at http://www-4.ibm.com/software/network/techexplorer/

The techexporer read most of TEX files without needing further
library or include files. Techexporer is An IBM software and does
not have spyware features and does trash the computer.

Regards,

hamdi ucar



Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Here is a message from E. Ratliff:
> 
> We have re-created the pdf files of TR 1862. We have also placed native
> file formats on line. Try again by accessing the files at URL:
> 
> http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/
> 
> Position your cursor on the file name and use the right mouse button to
> save the file to your disk.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Can anyone read these TEX file formats? I can't. The files are very small.
> It looks like they do not include figures.
> 
> Document #1 in .ps format is 61 MB.
> 
> - Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 15 10:59:45 2002
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Subject: Re: Message from Navy / Can anyone read TeX files? - correction
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Reply-to: "hamdix verisoft.com.trCorrection":
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I wrote:

"Techexporer is An IBM software and does
not have spyware features and does trash the computer."

Shoud be understand as 

   ...and does NOT trash the computer.

hamdi ucar



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 15 13:00:16 2002
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:56:39 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Need help with Acrobat Distiller
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If anyone out there is familiar with the crazy program Acrobat Distiller, 
that converts .ps to .pdf format, please contact me via private e-mail. 
Also, try converting the .ps files at:

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/

Can you put then in better resolution? I cannot understand why a 61 MB file 
ends up converting to 4 MB.

- Jed

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I can't help with Distiller, Jed, but PostScript files are
notoriously *VERY* fat. This is because PostScript is a
page description language. It consists of text statements
and commands which instruct a printer or rendering program
in terms similar to (but not as verbose as)...
         move to 0,0
	line to 25,45
or
	move to 445,320
	text "now is the time for all good men"
etc.

You can actually create postscript documents by hand with
a plain text editor (I've done it <grin>).
It is primarily vector based, meaning that it can be
effectively scaled to virtually any display medium from
a 72 dpi monitor to 1200 dpi or more for high resolution
printing. It can also have binary data (font definitions,
raster based images etc) embedded within it. A conversion
from a 61 megs PostScript document to 4 megs of text plus
images does not surprise me at all.

PDF, also developed by Adobe, has many similarities to
PostScript but is optimised more towards small file sizes
rather than high quality, making it somewhat better
suited for document transfer via the Internet.

I would expect there to be options you can set within
Distiller to set the desired rendering and output
resolution.


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> If anyone out there is familiar with the crazy program Acrobat 
> Distiller, that converts .ps to .pdf format, please contact me via 
> private e-mail. Also, try converting the .ps files at:
> 
> http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/
> 
> Can you put then in better resolution? I cannot understand why a 61 MB 
> file ends up converting to 4 MB.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 03:10:22 2002
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:38:17 +0100
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Subject: Fwd: Energy Advisor Post with European Green Party
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Anyone interested?  Know anyone would would fit the bill?  Is this the time 
to get a real believer in FE into the system?

Stephen Lawrence, Cambridge Green Party, England.

>From: "John Devaney" <johndevaney ukonline.co.uk>
>Mailing-List: list gp-l yahoogroups.com; contact gp-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
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>Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:04:22 +0100
>Subject: [GP-L] Fw: Energy Advisor Post with Green-EFA GRoup
>Reply-To: gp-l yahoogroups.com
>
>Internal recruitment
>in the Greens/EFA Group
>in the European Parliament
>
>Full-time position as adviser
>on Energy issues
>
>
>  The Greens/EFA Group in the European Parliament is looking for an adviser
>on Energy issues.
>
>The duration of the contract is for an unlimited period with a six-month
>trial period.
>
>Apart from the issues dealt with in the concerned committees, he or she
>should also be willing to prepare meetings and conferences on specific
>issues.
>
>The person should fulfil the following criteria :
>
>- knowledge of the EU energy issues, including nuclear policies, working
>experience on EU energy issues would be an asset
>
>- knowledge of the Green-EFA movements and policies as well as NGO's working
>in the field of energy;
>
>- knowledge of the European institutions and structures;
>
>- knowledge of English and French in writing and in speech is essential;
>knowledge of other EU languages would be an asset;
>
>- knowledge in writting, typing notes, drafts, amendments or proposals for
>the members and also prepare voting tables would be an asset
>
>- flexibility to work in a multinational and multilinguistic team and
>  acceptance of the working rhythms of the European Parliament;
>
>- working places : Brussels and when necessary one week per month in
>Strasbourg;
>
>Job description
>
>· Helping to define and Follow-up of the political priorities and activities
>of the Group linked to energy issues,
>· Follow-up of the  issues linked to energy in the ITRE (industry, trade,
>research and energy) committee and upcoming energy issues in other
>committees
>Preparation and attendance to committee meetings in collaboration with other
>staff members of the committees :
>- comprehensive preparation of meetings and plenary sittings
>- drafting of texts and parliamentary resolutions
>- drafting of amendments
>- brochures and leaflets if necessary;
>-co-ordinating the energy/nuclear working group of the Greens/EFA Group;
>-preparation of press releases in collaboration with the press team
>· Follow-up of energy related issues at all the different EU levels,
>networking with NGOs, sustainable energy industry, national governments and
>parliaments on energy issues
>
>In case of equal appreciation on competence and suitability to the position,
>preference will be given to female applicants.
>
>The deadline for the introduction of applications is 10th of May  2002.
>Shortlisted candidates will be invited for an interview to take place in
>Brussels.  Personal invitations will be addressed to shortlisted candidates.
>
>The date for starting up the job would preferably be 1st of July 2002.
>
>
>Please forward your application
>by electronical mail AND by mail
>with detailed curriculum vitae to
>
>Vula TSETSI, Co-Secretary General
>Greens/EFA Group in the European Parliament
>Office PHS 2 C 13
>Rue Wiertz
>B - 1047 Brussels
>e-mail : drecinella europarl.eu.int
>
>
>
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"The process of moving forward involves somebody stepping out of line."
8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 
1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 08:57:29 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Impossible molecule.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:04:44 -0400
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More news of a decidedly vortexian nature.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mole12.html

Who sez there's nothing left to discover...

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 12:46:30 2002
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:42:52 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Navy paper available in .jpg format
Mime-Version: 1.0
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The Adobe Distiller and Acrobat tools are unfriendly, to say the least. The 
manual for PostScript deserves some kind of award. I have been reading and 
writing computer software manuals for 20 years and I seldom seen one as 
bad. I cannot find the word "margins" in it. I was hoping I could make a 
few changes to the .ps file and have the program convert text to text 
instead of bitmapped images.

Anyway, I figured out how to create 300 dpi bitmapped images of the pages. 
This looks better than the Navy website version, which is the default 150 
dpi. I chopped off the margins, reduced the .jpg quality slightly, and I 
now have two files which display on the screen nicely as "Miniviewer.exe" 
files. You can zoom in on figures and graphs to see the details. 
Unfortunately these are too big to e-mail:

TR-1862_Vol1.exe 71 MB
TR-1862_Vol2.exe 29 MB

If anyone would like a copy I will put it on a CD-ROM along with the 
original files downloaded from the Navy, 105 MB. Contact me via private 
e-mail with your address for a copy. (I may have your address, but I can 
transfer it to a label more easily if you zap it to me.)

Scott Chubb asked them to mail me a CD of all original files. Maybe I can 
put something together. A regular .pdf file of this data, with the text 
preserved as text, would be a reasonable length.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 13:27:07 2002
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: whistle uses harmonically tuned chambers
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http://www.blairenterprises.net/
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 14:18:44 2002
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My inbound e-mail is not working. Please request CD-ROMs in a day or two.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 15:00:49 2002
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Jed:

do the jpgs zip down significantly?

Steve

>TR-1862_Vol1.exe 71 MB
>TR-1862_Vol2.exe 29 MB

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:07 2002
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April 16, 2002

Vortex,
Not that everyone here welcomes Park's comments being forwarded here but
here it is anyway. 
I just recovered from returning from my son's wedding at Ocean City,
N.J. of all places. (no, he does not live there)
-ak- 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Apr 12, 2002
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:55:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 12 Apr 02   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: BACK TO NUCLEAR-ARMED INTERCEPTORS?  The 
Defense Science Board is exploring the idea of using interceptor
missiles armed with nuclear weapons.  This might be named the
"Ground Hog Day defense," after the movie.  We seem doomed to
keep repeating failed ideas.  We had such a missile defense once,
briefly, until we realized that even a country like North Korea,
which doesn't have the bomb, could create nuclear havoc by just
sending their unarmed, inaccurate, marginally intercontinental
missiles our way.  In any case, the very fact that nuclear-armed
interceptors are now being considered seems to be an admission
that, contrary to Pentagon hype, the current crop of hit-to-kill
interceptors show little promise of hitting realistic targets.  

2. NASA: NUCLEAR-POWERED SPACE EXPLORATION.  You may recall the
noisy protests of anti-nuke fear mongers over the use of RTGs
(radioisotope thermoelectric generators) in the Cassini mission
to Saturn (WN 5 Sep 97).  According to Time.Com columnist Leon
Jaroff, they are now upset by an item in the FY03 NASA budget for
development of nuclear powered spacecraft.  If we are to explore
beyond the orbit of Mars, some form of nuclear energy will be a
necessity.  The fear mongers, however, are misinformed.  In the
first place NASA isn't looking for a new generation of RTGs,
which generate fairly feeble amounts of power, they want to take
the step to nuclear reactors, which can supply the much greater
power needs of future missions.  What the nuclear activists fail
to recognize is that a nuclear reactor, launched cold, is no more
of a hazard to Earth dwellers than any space hardware. Only after
the buildup of reaction products does radiation become a problem. 
By then the spacecraft should be beyond the point of no return.

3. CLONING: NOBEL LAUREATES CLASH WITH PRESIDENT BUSH.  On
Wednesday, the American Society for Cell Biology released a
letter signed by 40 Nobel laureates warning that a cloning ban
"would have a chilling effect on all scientific research in the
United States."  Among the signers of the letter were a number of
physicists, including former presidents of the American Physical
Society, Jerry Friedman and Burt Richter.  The letter strongly
opposes attempts to create a cloned human being, calling for
strong criminal sanctions to prevent it.  However, legislation
introduced by Senator Brownback (R-KS) would block even nuclear
transplantation technology, which cannot be used to clone human
beings but can clone stem cells for treatment of some of the most
debilitating diseases known to man.  President Bush somehow sees
this as an attack on human dignity, and promised he would sign
legislation outlawing importation of therapies developed in other
countries using cloning technology.  That, of course, has the
effect of limiting treatment for some dreaded diseases to those
who can afford to travel to other countries for treatment. 

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's, and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 00:05:30 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Navy Report Supports Cold Fusion
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:00:28 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <aa7qbuse95l8efn0ovou76fifljk9v2ma2 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:18:48
-0700:
Hi,
[snip]

>All,
>
>A new official report just out, prepared by the U.S. Navy, is strongly
>supportive of cold fusion research:
>
>TECHNICAL REPORT 1862, February 2002
>Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System
>(In two volumes)

The pdf document is actually quite easy to read if you zoom to 200%.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 01:21:58 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 03:17:24 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Energy Advisor Post with European Green Party
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>Anyone interested?  Know anyone would would fit the bill?  Is this 
>the time to get a real believer in FE into the system?
>
>Stephen Lawrence, Cambridge Green Party, England.

Harold Aspen www.energyscineces.co.uk

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 01:53:43 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:49:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mathias Bage <mathias Stacken.kth.se>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: smaller PDF files generated [was: Re: New Navy Report Supports Cold Fusion]
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Hi!

I've managed to generate smaller PDF versions of the reports.
Sizes are:

  3394377 tr1862-volume1.pdf
   248050 tr1862-volume2.pdf

I extracted the EPS (Encapsulated PostScript) images
from the original PS files, ran the .tex files through
LaTex and dvipdf. Both generated PDF files are actually
a few pages longer than the original PS files, and their
page breaks are not identical.

Some images come out more blurred than the original PS files
(most notably those with color), probably due to scaling problems
I don't have time to solve.

To get them, point you browser to:

  http://bitops.com/~mathias/tr1862/

Regards,
/Mathias

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 06:21:14 2002
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Can be found at
	http://bitops.com/~mathias/tr1862/html/

Regards,
  Mathias Bage


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 06:47:33 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: smaller PDF files generated [was: Re: New Navy Report
  Supports Cold Fusion]
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Mathias Bage wrote:

>I've managed to generate smaller PDF versions of the reports.

Great job! Thanks!


>To get them, point you browser to:
>
>   http://bitops.com/~mathias/tr1862/

No can do. It says the file is unavailable, try again later. Like the Magic 
Eight Ball, "ask again later."

The HTML version comes out fine.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:48:01 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Plutonium showdown in NC
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North Carolina may call out state troopers to keep the Federal government 
from bringing plutonium into the state. See:

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/3073501.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 07:37:28 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:36:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mathias Bage <mathias Stacken.kth.se>
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On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Mathias Bage wrote:
> 
> >I've managed to generate smaller PDF versions of the reports.
> 
> Great job! Thanks!
> 
> 
> >To get them, point you browser to:
> >
> >   http://bitops.com/~mathias/tr1862/
> 
> No can do. It says the file is unavailable, try again later. Like the Magic 
> Eight Ball, "ask again later."


Oops! File attribute mistake. Now fixed.

> 
> The HTML version comes out fine.

Glad to hear!

> 
> - Jed

/Mathias Bage

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 12:12:16 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:07:30 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Miles observed radiation
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There is lots of important stuff packed into the Navy report. Everyone 
should read it. Here is something I somehow overlooked all these years:

"3.2 Measurements Using GM and NaI Detectors.

Anomalously high radiation counts were observed using several different GM 
detectors as well as NaI detectors during electrolysis experiments with 
palladium cathodes in heavy water [7]. These high radiation counts were 
often observed in co-deposition experiments where palladium metal is 
deposited from a D2O solution onto a copper cathode in the presence of 
evolving deuterium gas. The radiation counts reached values as high as 73 
sigma above normal background counts."

- Miles paper, p. 22

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 14:33:47 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Miles observed radiation
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:30:09 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:07:30 -0400:
Hi,

>There is lots of important stuff packed into the Navy report. Everyone 
>should read it. Here is something I somehow overlooked all these years:
>
>"3.2 Measurements Using GM and NaI Detectors.
>
>Anomalously high radiation counts were observed using several different GM 
>detectors as well as NaI detectors during electrolysis experiments with 
>palladium cathodes in heavy water [7]. These high radiation counts were 
>often observed in co-deposition experiments where palladium metal is 
>deposited from a D2O solution onto a copper cathode in the presence of 
>evolving deuterium gas. The radiation counts reached values as high as 73 
>sigma above normal background counts."
>
>- Miles paper, p. 22
>
>- Jed
The reaction: hydrino + Cu63 -> Ni60 + He4 + 3.75 MeV
can leave the Ni60 in an excited state from which gamma decay is
possible.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 15:01:35 2002
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http://www.yowusa.com/Archive/April2002/meg1a/meg1a.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 17 20:23:19 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new SC-gravity paper
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:21:24 -0400
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On Monday 15 April 2002 10:12, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
> http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0204012
>
> Regards, hamdi ucar
>
>
> General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract
> gr-qc/0204012
>
> From: Chiao <chiao socrates.berkeley.edu>
> Date (v1): Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:20:03 GMT   (46kb)
> Date (revised v2): Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:32:09 GMT   (46kb)
>
> Superconductors as transducers and antennas for gravitational and
> electromagnetic radiation
>
> Authors: Raymond Y. Chiao
> Comments: 21 pages, 3 figures, abbreviated writeup of my March 23, 2002
> Wheeler Symposium lecture, and book chapter for Wheeler Festschrift
>
>
>   Type II superconductors will be considered as macroscopic quantum
> gravitational antennas, which can simultaneously also be used as efficient
> transducers for converting electromagnetic radiation into gravitational
> radiation, and vice versa. A Meissner-like effect, in which the
> Lense-Thirring field associated with a gravity wave is expelled from the
> interior of the superconductor, is predicted. An analysis of a process of
> natural impedance matching in type II superconductors such as YBCO based on
> the Ginzburg-Landau theory yields an estimate of the transducer conversion
> efficiency of the order of unity upon reflection of the wave. Thus
> efficient emitters and receivers of gravitational radiation can be
> constructed at microwave frequencies. A simple, Hertz-like experiment using
> YBCO and 12 GHz microwaves is being performed to test these ideas. Results
> of this experiment will be reported elsewhere. (PACS nos.: 03.65.Ud,
> 04.30.Db, 04.30.Nk, 04.80.Nn, 74.60-w, 74.72.Bk)

Now about the 'speed of gravity' being from 27c to infinity?!  If this 'radio'
works, it would be the real world functional equivalent of the star trek
sub space radio.  Would'nt it be REALLY cute if we got somebody out
there to answer really quick to a communication like that.  It would be
as if we were to be suddenly detected on a universal basis, to the 
extent that people out there would now HAVE to deal with us rather
than 'ignore' us.  After all, if we could send on such a medium, so also
could we recieve.  Just what our SETI people could then pick up were
they to adopt this new technology would be anybody's guess.  Some
folks out there might not want any 'security leaks' in our favor.  Sorry,
but I am just cynical enough to think that the universe's politics will be
a rough mirror to our own............can't wait for the alien religious 
hucksters to show up......

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 09:23:08 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: MEG
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:21:14 -0400
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Bonjour M. Naudin,
	Je ne parle Francais, mais je pense su page fais bon!
Bad French, I know, but try anyway.  Last time I was in France was
when I went to Strasbourg 20 years ago to see relatives.
	I like your site.  Also like the news about the new M.E.G.
If it works as the sites say, I would hate to see it stolen by some
clone of General Electric, Ronald Reagan's patron.  It then could have
some possibility of freeing us from becoming Islamisized by force.
Make no mistake, the Muslims do intend now or eventually to use
their temporary domination of energy sources to maximum advantage
tor their religion.  Statements by the 'Al Qaeda' made reference to
our twin towers as 'houses of infidels'.  I suppose that means we
Christains are prey just as the Judaics.  Now it is said by their
militants.  If they mainstream among them smell blood, our blood,
that situation could change amazingly fast.  Weak peoples in the
world soon get challenged for their possessions.  We westerners
will be no different when we show weakness in the face of this
kind of potential foe.  
	The French had to face this enemy once before in history,
Your Charles Martel stopped them then, in France, in your farm
country.  Was it Tours, i forgot.
    Now as in the last century, wars will be a continuation of 'diplomacy
by other means' to secure resources and further religions.  I would
much rather they would not be at the expense of my western values
or culture.  Not that I 'hate' these other faiths, I just do not want them
imposed on me or my family on pain of my or my family's suffering
because of the failure of the will of our politicians.
    Our politicians would be wise to wake up to the dangers in the
present world while they can be dealt with rationally, and not leave
the ultimate resolution to another Austrian artist son of a customs
official.
   This M.E.G. could free us from all of this if it can be scaled up.
Then our concerns will be not how to generate it, but how to
distribute the wealth of it.

Au Revoir

Standing Bear
rockcast earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 09:31:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Re: atomic engines
From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net> (by way of Standing Bear <rockcast@net-link.net>)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:31:59 -0400
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On Tuesday 09 April 2002 07:31, Atomic.Rod aol.com wrote:
> I question your knowledge of practical physics. I deal in reality, not
> dreams. Fission works with small, simple devices at any temperature. Fusion
> has only be done in fission triggered bombs or stars. End of discussion.

This is a forum for discussion, not autocratic scholastism.  That is why it
was established in the first place.  As in any democracy, ideals and
true believers get their egos messed around a bit.
   I like your ideas about atomic power.  Do not get me wrong.  We NEED
atomic power.  We also have some fusion power.   The reactors at
CERN are actually generating some power from fusion,  megawatts of
it.  The only problem is that it take more energy put in than we get out of
it.  We ARE making fusion happen.  You are just like I was 30 years ago
when I said a statement like yours to a physics prof at Sacramento State
University where I was an engineering student.  He told me the then
incredible news that they were doing fusion reactions routinely then, just
that they produced little energy in relation to input.
	Again I state that the marriage of a fission energy production
device with a fusion propulsion device could yield us a ship capable
of intra-system travel in a practical sense.  The only thing required of
us would be the ability to tolerate the g forces unless we come up
with a way to suppress them electrodynamically.

Standing Bear
     ................and the 'discussion' has JUST BEGUN!!!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 10:03:25 2002
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:59:49 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Re: atomic engines
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Standing Bear wrote:

>Again I state that the marriage of a fission energy production device with 
>a fusion propulsion device could yield us a ship capable of intra-system 
>travel in a practical sense.  The only thing required of us would be the 
>ability to tolerate the g forces unless we come up with a way to suppress 
>them electrodynamically.

At 1 g, a trip to the nearest star would take 8 or 9 years. That is a long 
time, but not unthinkably long. In a few centuries we should be capable of 
building self-sufficient space craft that will last that long and support 
human life in reasonable comfort. Some 19th century whaling ships spent a 
year or more at sea, carrying enough food and water. Making space craft 
that support human life for centuries would be far more difficult.

It may not be physically possible to suppress gravity electrodynamically, 
whereas I think it is physically possible for fission or fusion rockets to 
cross interstellar space at close to light speed, with the schemes I 
described here recently. No doubt people will think of much better schemes. 
It may take several centuries to develop such technology, but it does not 
violate any laws of physics, and the cost would not be unthinkable. In 
principle it can be done, I think.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 11:27:54 2002
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:22:51 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re: atomic engines
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:59:49PM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Standing Bear wrote:
> 
> >Again I state that the marriage of a fission energy production device with 
> >a fusion propulsion device could yield us a ship capable of intra-system 
> >travel in a practical sense.  The only thing required of us would be the 
> >ability to tolerate the g forces unless we come up with a way to suppress 
> >them electrodynamically.
> 
> At 1 g, a trip to the nearest star would take 8 or 9 years. That is a long 
> time, but not unthinkably long. In a few centuries we should be capable of 
> building self-sufficient space craft that will last that long and support 
> human life in reasonable comfort. Some 19th century whaling ships spent a 
> year or more at sea, carrying enough food and water. Making space craft 
> that support human life for centuries would be far more difficult.

Eight or nine years?  Surely it should be closer to two years.

    a = v/t	and
    v = x/t	therefore

    a = x/t^2	or
[1] t = sqrt(x/a)

For Alpha Centuri, which I believe is the nearest star, and which is
approximately 4 light years away:

    SecondsInAYear = 60 * 60 * 24 * 365 =~ 3.15 * 10^7 seconds
    SpeedOfLight =~ 3 * 10^8 meters/second
    DistanceToAC = 4 * SecondsInAYear * SpeedOfLight =~ 3.78 x 10^16 meters

Feeding this into [1]:

    G = 9.8 meters/second^2
[2] t = sqrt(DistanceToAC / G)
      = sqrt(3.78 * 10^16 meters / 9.8 meters/second^2) = 6.21 x 10^7 seconds

Convert this back into years:

    t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97 years

Joe

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: atomic engines
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:17:30 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:59:49 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>It may not be physically possible to suppress gravity electrodynamically, 
>whereas I think it is physically possible for fission or fusion rockets to 
>cross interstellar space at close to light speed, with the schemes I 
>described here recently. No doubt people will think of much better schemes. 
>It may take several centuries to develop such technology, but it does not 
>violate any laws of physics, and the cost would not be unthinkable. In 
>principle it can be done, I think.
>
>- Jed

Hi Jed,

I can assure you that it is possible. I have personally seen such a
craft flying, which BTW means that your suggested scenario (as well as
this entire thread) is redundant.




Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Will scan Navy document at 300 dpi
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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
wrote:
>  I prefer
> to use the PaperPort 
> tool that generates compressed pages in a
> self-displaying "Miniviewer.exe" 
> file. Some people feel uneasy about executing .exe
> files sent by e-mail, and the program would probably
> not work on Macs. 

Damn, thats not going to work in Linux either, until I
get wine to work, and only if this program does not
use strange DLLs (WinE considers MFC strange)

> This 
> program condenses the 10 page paper by Mallette and
> Hanson to 862 KB. That 
> would make the 179 page paper by Fleischmann 15 MB
> long. That is fine for a 
> CD-ROM but not good for e-mail distribution. Perhaps
> I can leave out the 
> data pages, and recommend the user download them
> from the Navy.

How does it compress it? I would love to see the data
pages.

> I have a handy document about energy efficiency and
> conversion. It is 
> published by NREL, 1992, "Hydrogen Program Plan."
> Appendix A, "Energy 
> Pathways," is particularly helpful. I just noticed
> it has no copyright. I 
> could scan Appendix A if anyone is interested.
> Contact me by direct e-mail.

Why not ask the appropiate authors if you can post
some web copies of those done in (X)HTML? Similar to
how W3.org does some of their longer docs (Each
section its own page). Perhaps I will see if I can
download it. I will allow for people to get a bzip2
tarball of it :)

=====
__   __ _____ ___ ____    __    __   ____   ____
\ \ / // ___// _ | __ \   | \   | | /      /  _ \
 \ v // /__ / /_|| |_\ |  | |\  | | \__    | | | |
  / // /__ / ___ | ___ \  | | \ | | /      | |_| |
 /_//____//_/   ||_\  \_\ |_|  \|_| \____  \_____/
The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 15:30:39 2002
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:29:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Message from Navy / Can anyone read TeX files?
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My reply follow inline (I could not care less if
somebody has replied):
> 
> Can anyone read these TEX file formats? I can't. The
> files are very small. 
> It looks like they do not include figures.
> 
> Document #1 in .ps format is 61 MB.

*.ps format, or PostScript format is mostly a printer
format, I can probably read them, If nobody else has
offered.
 
> - Jed
> 
> 


=====
__   __ _____ ___ ____    __    __   ____   ____
\ \ / // ___// _ | __ \   | \   | | /      /  _ \
 \ v // /__ / /_|| |_\ |  | |\  | | \__    | | | |
  / // /__ / ___ | ___ \  | | \ | | /      | |_| |
 /_//____//_/   ||_\  \_\ |_|  \|_| \____  \_____/
The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 15:54:03 2002
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From: James Payne <danewmoon yahoo.ca>
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--- Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
http://www.yowusa.com/Archive/April2002/meg1a/meg1a.htm
> 

Where can I find out how to make that? It would be an
interesting project if I could get the resources for
it :), and i hope I do not prove him wrong (Without it
being some procedure error, I seem attuned to).

It is in the patent office, (newbie mode) do they give
out information like that to individuals?

=====
__   __ _____ ___ ____    __    __   ____   ____
\ \ / // ___// _ | __ \   | \   | | /      /  _ \
 \ v // /__ / /_|| |_\ |  | |\  | | \__    | | | |
  / // /__ / ___ | ___ \  | | \ | | /      | |_| |
 /_//____//_/   ||_\  \_\ |_|  \|_| \____  \_____/
The year shipping began....

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 18 18:47:37 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
Message-ID: <115.1032a893.29f0d078 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:44:24 EDT
Subject: Voodoo Science on slashdot.org
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At this late date Voodoo Science by Robert Park is making the rounds on 
www.slashdot.org discussion forum.

Mostly positive comments from seff-congratulatory people.

A direct link is below, but also try the general site if this fails:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/08/1822202&mode=thread&tid=126

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 19 00:09:32 2002
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From: Bob Horst <bhorst attbi.com>
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This week I received an alumni magazine, "Engineering Outlook," from the
UIUC (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) College of
Engineering.  It has a two page article about Prof. Miley and his
research work.

The article is mostly about his hot fusion work, especially IEC's
(Inertial Electrostatic Confinement devices).  But there are three
paragraphs on his cold fusion/LENR work..  Here is one quote from him:

"One advantage of being a tenured faculty member, however, is that I can
work on unpopular or controversial ideas that might be important to
society in the long run, ideas that might have a significant impact on
future energy independence for the United States.  LENR would be
revolutionary if it works.  That makes it worth putting an intense
effort into finding out."

Maybe this is one more small step in the direction of LENR work being
discussed instead of ridiculed.

-- Bob


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James Payne wrote:

>--- Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>http://www.yowusa.com/Archive/April2002/meg1a/meg1a.htm
>
>
>Where can I find out how to make that? It would be an
>interesting project if I could get the resources for
>it :), and i hope I do not prove him wrong (Without it
>being some procedure error, I seem attuned to).
>
>It is in the patent office, (newbie mode) do they give
>out information like that to individuals?
>
Sure, go to uspto.gov and search for patent number 6,362,718

If you're really interested in building one, you should subscribe to the 
group MEG_builders yahoogroups.com

Terry

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just testing, no need to respond

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 19 20:37:31 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Apr 19, 2002
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:50:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 19 Apr 02   Washington, DC

1. ACUPUNCTURE: AN INCONCEIVABLE FERTILITY TREATMENT.  A CNN
morning news story yesterday promised new hope to women having
difficulty getting pregnant.  Traditional Chinese medicine (TCM),
which goes back 4,000 years, was used to treat women undergoing
in vitro fertilization, which hasn't been around quite that long. 
CNN interviewer Paula Zahn asked an acupuncturist how sticking
needles in the hands or feet, or just about anywhere it seemed,
could affect pregnancy?  "It increases the flow of chi," the
acupuncturist explained.  Even for Paula, that was a little short
on scientific precision, so she turned to a "fertility expert"
from NYU.  "We're still looking for the science," he conceded,
"but this has been around for more than 3,000 years, so it must
work."  Sure, about as well as astrology.  The story was prompted
by a feeble German study that wasn't even single-blind.  It was
published by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine in
Fertility and Sterility -- maybe in the "Sterility" category.

2. OIL: SENATE BLOCKS DRILLING IN ALASKA WILDLIFE REFUGE.  Just a
month ago, a move to slightly toughen automotive fuel-efficiency
standards was defeated by the same people that now claim we need
drilling in the wildlife refuge to promote "energy independence." 
The more likely concern is voter reaction if the price of filling
up their SUVs keeps rising.  From a strategic standpoint, it
would make perfect sense to increase oil imports from the Middle
East, while conserving the tiny domestic reserves we still have.

3. JASON: ELITE ADVISORY GROUP WILL GET A NEW PENTAGON SPONSOR. 
It appears that Jason's split with DARPA involves irreconcilable
differences (WN 5 Apr 02).  But no one seems to think Jason will
remain unattached. According to Science and Government Report,
the new Department of Defense sponsor is expected to be Ron Sega,
Director of Defense Research and Engineering, "who has a broader
view of the technology base" than DARPA.  But Steve Koonin, the
Jason chair is fretting over the slow pace of the takeover.  The
customary April planning session has already been scrubbed.  

4. LIE DETECTORS: HAS THE POLYGRAPH EVER UNCOVERED A SPY?  WN
believes it has not (WN 5 Apr 02).  If it has, the government has
never acknowledged the fact.  The National Academy of Sciences is 
conducting a scientific review of the validity and reliability of
polygraph testing. Its final report is due later this year.   It
is widely expected that the report will expose the polygraph as
less than worthless.  But beware, this is a powerful industry.

5. NEUTRINOS.  A National Research Council report, to be released
on Sunday, is expected to recommend the need for a deep
underground laboratory for neutrino studies.  This is another
step in a lengthy peer review process, prior to site selection.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 20 07:27:07 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Bubble fusion panel canceled 
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Robert Huggins sent me the following. From USA Today, April 1, 2002:

'Bubble fusion' panel canceled

A "bubble fusion" panel scheduled for a physics meeting later this
month has been canceled after a supporter of the controversial research 
finding withdrew from the event. Announcement of tabletop nuclear fusion 
inside collapsed bubbles of liquid, in a March issue of Science, had 
attracted loud skepticism from some physicists. "I think it's a real pity 
(the panel) isn't going to happen," says panelist Michael Saltmarsh of the 
Oak Ridge (Tenn.) National Laboratory, a bubble fusion critic. Saying the 
setting was unfairly stacked against him, bubble fusion study author 
Richard Lahey of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute withdrew Thursday. He 
will speak at a June meeting of the American Nuclear Society, he says.

- Jed 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 20 08:00:37 2002
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Subject: gravity.org
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:57:58 +0400
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Hi,

www.gravity.org site maintained by J. Schnurer and G.Modanese 
is unavailable at least for one week.

My messages directly to J. Schnurer were also irresponsive. 

The gravity impulse experiment forum http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm
was never updeted since october 2001.

Anybody having an information on this subject please write.

hamdi ucar

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 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/pheonix.html">http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/pheonix.html</A> 

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica> <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/pheonix.html">http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/pheonix.html</A> <FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 21 19:12:29 2002
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At 03:25 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
><http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/pheonix.html>http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/pheonix.html 
>
>
>Frank Znidarsic

Yes:

I went to DeVry in Phoenix.  I used to climb that peak all the time...

A note on city sprawl.   1980...   I could climb up there at night lit only 
by the glare of the city lights.  On the peak I could see lights to the 
horizon in every direction.   I understand from conversations with my X 
that Phoenix is even bigger now (way bigger) and if you live in the inner 
city it is a day trip to the wilderness in any direction.  This park is a 
wonderful chunk of Mohave wilderness right in the middle of the sprawl.

If you get the chance to make that night climb I highly recommend it.  It 
is a beautiful sight you will never forget.  However.  I recommend that 
only experienced free stylers climb all the way to the summit at 
night.  That last 150ft or so is a bit treacherous.

Cheers.

PS:
Don't feed the ferrets after midnight.



Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 09:08:15 2002
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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:05:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: exceeding C
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>On
>
>     t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97 years
>
>Joe

If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have to exceed 
C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when you 
exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be very 
interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one light year.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 10:24:14 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: exceeding C
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I think you will find that C is not as constant as you think.

As the dencity of a media changes so also the rate at wich
waves will pass through that media.

Mach is an excelent example here.   As you increace your
altitude "Mach" decreaces.  This is due to the loss of media
dencity.

There are some examples in the records from the hubble space
telescope One is of a gas jet from a star  of some sort
exceding C by two or three times.  Actually C is altered in
that space to allow this.


--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
> >On
> >
> >     t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97
> years
> >
> >Joe
> 
> If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have
> to exceed 
> C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when
> you 
> exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be
> very 
> interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one
> light year.
> -- 
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: exceeding C
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:05:14AM -0500, thomas malloy wrote:
> >On
> >
> >    t / SecondsInAYear =3D 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 =3D 1.97 years
> >
> >Joe
>=20
> If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have to exceed=20
> C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when you=20
> exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be very=20
> interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one light year.

The distinction here is what you would see, versus what actually
happens.  I maintain that it's quite possible to go faster than the
speed of light, and we've got no evidence to suggest otherwise.  On
the otherhand if we wanted to observe what was happening we've have
to take the speed of light into consideration, because that's the
speed at which we're able to obtain information from a distance.
The limits that special relativity places are observational limits,
limits to the measurement process.

Joe

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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: exceeding C
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 10:19:44AM -0700, Charles Ford wrote:
> I think you will find that C is not as constant as you think.
>=20
> As the dencity of a media changes so also the rate at wich
> waves will pass through that media.
>=20
> Mach is an excelent example here.   As you increace your
> altitude "Mach" decreaces.  This is due to the loss of media
> dencity.
>=20
> There are some examples in the records from the hubble space
> telescope One is of a gas jet from a star  of some sort
> exceding C by two or three times.  Actually C is altered in
> that space to allow this.

I find it funny that an axiom of a theory, in this case that we
should scale all velocities by the speed of light, is taken as proof
of that axiom.  It doesn't make sense.  We can put any velocity in
Lorenz equations that we want and scale by that, but it wouldn't
mean that that was the maximum velocity that was obtainable.

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 13:18:41 2002
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: exceeding C
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On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, thomas malloy wrote:

> >On
> >
> >     t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97 years
> >
> >Joe
> 
> If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have to exceed 
> C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when you 
> exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be very 
> interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one light year.

If you go faster than light, you are no longer in this universe. 

If you use all the energy in this universe, you would not have enough
energy to make any massive particle move at the speed of light. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 13:18:56 2002
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Subject: Re: exceeding C
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On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Josef Karthauser wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:05:14AM -0500, thomas malloy wrote:
> > >On
> > >
> > >    t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97 years
> > >
> > >Joe
> > 
> > If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have to exceed 
> > C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when you 
> > exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be very 
> > interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one light year.
> 
> The distinction here is what you would see, versus what actually
> happens.  I maintain that it's quite possible to go faster than the
> speed of light, and we've got no evidence to suggest otherwise.  On

That particles remain at below the speed of light, and follow SR, has been
demonstrated in many particle accellerators since about the 1960s. That is
pretty solid evidence otherwise. 


> the otherhand if we wanted to observe what was happening we've have
> to take the speed of light into consideration, because that's the
> speed at which we're able to obtain information from a distance.
> The limits that special relativity places are observational limits,
> limits to the measurement process.

No. See, Rindler's book. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 13:46:17 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Re: atomic engines
In-Reply-To: <20020418182251.GE5928 genius.tao.org.uk>
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Josef Karthauser wrote:

>Eight or nine years?  Surely it should be closer to two years.
>
>     a = v/t     and
>     v = x/t     therefore
>
>     a = x/t^2   or
>[1] t = sqrt(x/a)

Did you remember to decelerate halfway there?

My answer, 8 or 9 years, assumes Einstein was right. See:

http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q1993.html

I gather that some people interpret Einstein's theory to mean the voyage 
would take eight years to observers on earth or at Alpha Centuri, but much 
less time to the people on board. I wouldn't know about that.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 14:38:01 2002
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	Hey!

	A light year is a measure or unit of distance...

	would you say:

	If you went 4 feet in an inch?

						Huh?


	OR

	If you went 3 kilometers in a yard?

		Hahhh???


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, thomas malloy wrote:

> >On
> >
> >     t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97 years
> >
> >Joe
> 
> If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have to exceed 
> C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when you 
> exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be very 
> interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one light year.
> -- 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 15:04:56 2002
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--On Monday, April 22, 2002 1:18 PM -0700 Stephen Lajoie 
<lajoie eskimo.com> wrote:


> That particles remain at below the speed of light, and follow SR, has been
> demonstrated in many particle accellerators since about the 1960s. That is
> pretty solid evidence otherwise.
>

Has this been proven for other than charged particles? It is easy to see 
that the apparent increase in mass could be due electromagnetic forces.
Ron
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<flushleft>


--On Monday, April 22, 2002 1:18 PM -0700 Stephen Lajoie =
<<lajoie eskimo.com> wrote:


=20

> That particles remain at below the speed of light, and follow SR, has =
been

> demonstrated in many particle accellerators since about the 1960s. That =
is

> pretty solid evidence otherwise.=20

>=20


Has this been proven for other than charged particles? It is easy to see =
that the apparent increase in mass could be due electromagnetic forces.

Ron
--==========09137549==========--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 16:08:33 2002
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From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Groundbreaking Identification of the Orgone and DOR Spectra (fwd)
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Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:30:06 -0500 (EST)
To: patrick_dowland hotmail.com
From: Aetherometry Info <info aetherometry.com>
Subject: Groundbreaking Identification of the Orgone and DOR Spectra


      Akronos Publishing, at http://www.aetherometry.com, presents

        The complete Volume 2 of Experimental Aetherometry

including the final three communications by the Correas regarding the
exact nature of the massfree ambipolar electric Aether energy - which
is of two types, orgone and DOR.  The three newly published monographs
are as follows:

*  AS2-17A  "The indirect 'orgone effect' of Tesla radiation:
            ambipolar aether and blackbody radiation spectra"

       (http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2B.html#abstractAS2-17A)

*  AS2-17B  "Determination of the OR and DOR energies, frequencies
            and wavelengths driving the atmospheric allotropic cycle
            of oxygen, ozone and water"

       (http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2B.html#abstractAS2-17B)

*  AS2-17C  "The cosmic background microwave radiation as evidence for
            cosmological creation of electrons with minimum kinetic
            energy and for a minimum of cosmic ambipolar massfree
            energy"

       (http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2B.html#abstractAS2-17C)


The complete Volume 2 is now available at http://www.aetherometry.com/.


>From a recent (March 20) interview of the Correas at ABRI (soon to be
available at the Akronos website):

"PC: Tesla discovered ambipolar electric radiation, and Reich
experimentally demonstrated the existence of massfree radiation
of two types - OR and DOR - according to whether the effects were
beneficial or detrimental to living systems.  Tesla was convinced
that ambipolar radiation could not be reduced to either fluxes of
monopolar charges or to electromagnetic radiation, but he failed
to adequately distinguish it from either one.  Likewise, Reich
failed to provide the energy and frequency spectra of OR and DOR
radiations or to concretely identify his concept of 'orgonotic charges'
- which share, at one and the same time , both electric and nonelectric
characteristics.  In fact, to make matters worse, he attributed to OR
the two nonelectric phenomena he had discovered inside ORACs and simple
Faraday cages, while claiming that OR partook of the characteristics of
electrostatic energy.

AC:  For the past half-century, scientists and philosophers - even those 
rare ones who claimed to follow Tesla or Reich - have blissfully
ignored these discoveries and the problems they pose .  To this day,
no one has found the spectrum of massfree electric energy, described
its characteristics, or studied its physical interactions.  Orgone
energy has remained mythical, when not reduced either to negative ions,
beneficial photons, fantasmatic neutrinos or heavy leptons.  Take your
pick.

PC:  In the first of the three new communications, we experimentally
show how the 'dual orgone effect" discovered by Reich - thermometric
and electroscopic - can be obtained by simple transformations of Tesla
radiation generated in the OR spectrum.  In other words, how latent
heat and electromagnetic energy can be obtained from the interaction of
ambipolar radiation with Matter.  Hence we are led to conclude that the
nonelectric effects of the ORAC are ultimately driven by conversion of
ambipolar energy of the orgone type.

AC:  We conclude this first communication by using solar radiation as
a means to introduce the entire frequency, wavelength and energy
spectrum of ambipolar electric radiation, as well as the physical
processes involved in the production of blackbody photons.  For the
first time, the spectra of DOR and OR are clearly identified - and
so is their nature as massfree ambipolar radiation.

PC:  Then in the second communication we apply the developed
methodology to identify and stratographically 'seat' the solar-sourced
OR and DOR energy impulses that drive the allotropic cycle of the most
basic atmospheric components: oxygen, ozone and water.  The very
atmospheric stratification of the cycle indicates that the problem
of absorption of the energy of the electric Aether has been badly
posed.  The very allotropism of the cycle betrays the existence not
just of an orgone envelope, but also of an outer DOR energy envelope
surrounding the planet.

AC:  Finally, the third communication gave us great pleasure to
write - aside from our obvious interest and desire.  It simply
proposes a totally different analysis of the microwave Cosmic
Background Radiation - one that demonstrates how this cosmological
blackbody is permanently issued from the kinetic energy of
cosmological electrons, and therefore constitutes an indirect
proof for the existence of a Cosmic Orgone Background Radiation
(CBOR) which we now map onto the spectrum we identified and
defined in the first of the three communications.  In accord
with aetherometric thermometry, we propose a very different
temperature profile for the microwave CBR.

PC:  We also propose an aetherometric model for the asymmetric
creation of cosmological electrons from the matrix of Space and Time
- and suggest that the CBOR is generated in the very process of
asymmetric creation of Matter.

AC:  Then we challenge radioastronomers and NASA to determine whether
or not we are correct in predicting that other marks of the
identified CBOR should be found from cosmological baryons
(hydrogen and helium in particular), in the radio CBRs which
we aetherometrically predict baryonic Matter will generate and 'we'
should be able to detect in extragalactic space.

LB:  It sounds like you are having a lot of fun, now that you have
taken your gloves off.

PC:  Well, the simple conclusion these three reports lead to is -
there is no longer reason to view the microwave CBR as a twisted
proof of relativistic cosmology.  One can no longer continue to take
the microwave CBR as a sign of an originary explosion of Space.
General relativity and all its modern revisionist interpretations
are simply wrong.  At the confines of Space, in the 'vacuum',
nonelectric Aether is constantly converted into electric Aether -
with Matter being permanently generated and resorbed in the process.
The microphysical pathways have now been identified - despite the
inertia of an entire epoch, the inertia of officiating scientists
as much as the inertia of protesting scientists.

AC:  There are other ways to live on this and other planets than
by fighting for land, glory, gold or black gold.  But to change
ourselves we have to become as much artists or creators of our future
as we have to learn the bioenergetic language of the cosmos, and
thus become scientists.  With all the errors it contains - and for
which we alone are responsible - this is our contribution to that
learning - part of our creation of a different future."



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 19:03:23 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: exceeding C
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020422173232.27366H-100000 college.antioch-
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At 05:34 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

>         Hey!
>
>         A light year is a measure or unit of distance...

Yes it is a measure of distance based on the speed of light as measured on 
earth.  Not as it is measured passing close to a star for example.  Space 
and mass and speed distort the passage of time and light.   Also if you are 
following a photon a light year will be infinite as for you time is not 
passing at all.  For us who are moving more slowly time actually passes at 
a much faster rate.

If this is confusing then try this.  Go get the actual Einstein papers 
"Special Relativity" and "General Relativity",  Sit down and gobble it up 
like a novel.  It is easy reading and Albert paints a fantastically clear 
picture of the whole relativity thing.  He allows the reader to visualize 
the experiments then enumerates them to perfection.  But don't stop 
there.  This is a trilogy...  Read the sidelights too.  :-)

This is not intended to insult.  It is remarkable how clear he makes 
it.  You will think your collage physics professor was a total boob.


>         would you say:
>
>         If you went 4 feet in an inch?
>
>                                                 Huh?
>
>
>         OR
>
>         If you went 3 kilometers in a yard?
>
>                 Hahhh???

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 19:25:31 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: exceeding C
In-Reply-To: <20020422190104.GE11050 genius.tao.org.uk>
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Joe; all:

Let me through this conjecture at you.

Sound waves pass through a media which we call air.  We can name a constant 
as the speed of sound but if you change the air the speed changes.  Light 
behaves similarly as it travels through space.  If you change space then 
you change the way the wave travels through it.  Space is a magnetic media 
that that behaves with magnetic waves very similar to the way the 
acoustical media (air) behaves with sound waves.

We know that it is possible to pass through the speed of sound and even 
travel many times the speed of sound  I myself have been past mach once (it 
was really cool).

Other then a craft that is able to navigate the altered dynamics of the air 
(which has its control surfaces on the leading edges)  All that mach travel 
requires is a container that is ridged against the air.  Problem with 
travel beyond the speed of light is that there is no such thing as a 
container that is rigid against space.

A conjectural experiment:

Capture a couple of flys.  Place one in a glass jar and the other in a 
screen container.  Now fasten the two containers (with passengers) to the 
front of your favorite fast car.  Get in and find a stretch of safe highway 
and accelerate to as fast as you dare.

When you stop observe the two flys

In the glass jar the fly is totally unmarked by his excessive travel 
velocity.  (except maybe frightened)

In the screen container there is a splash of fly guts the rest of which are 
probably on your windshield.

Conclusion:

If one could create a container that is rigid against space then travel at 
speeds in excess of C would not only be possible but could be quite 
comfortable.

  (I call this jumping to an outlandish conclusion..  What do ya think?)


At 08:01 PM 4/22/02 +0100, you wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 10:19:44AM -0700, Charles Ford wrote:
> > I think you will find that C is not as constant as you think.
> >
> > As the dencity of a media changes so also the rate at wich
> > waves will pass through that media.
> >
> > Mach is an excelent example here.   As you increace your
> > altitude "Mach" decreaces.  This is due to the loss of media
> > dencity.
> >
> > There are some examples in the records from the hubble space
> > telescope One is of a gas jet from a star  of some sort
> > exceding C by two or three times.  Actually C is altered in
> > that space to allow this.
>
>I find it funny that an axiom of a theory, in this case that we
>should scale all velocities by the speed of light, is taken as proof
>of that axiom.  It doesn't make sense.  We can put any velocity in
>Lorenz equations that we want and scale by that, but it wouldn't
>mean that that was the maximum velocity that was obtainable.
>
>Joe

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net


_________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 22 19:59:06 2002
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Subject: RE: exceeding C
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:08:08 -0400
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>If one could create a container that is rigid against space then travel at 
>speeds in excess of C would not only be possible but could be quite 
>comfortable.
>(I call this jumping to an outlandish conclusion..  What do ya think?)

What you're basically saying is that you want the craft to
move thru the substratum of space, and this presumes a means to remove
all of the "space" from a volume. 

I am reminded of those fancy underwater interceptor missles that generate
a shock envelope around the body of the craft. So what causes space to
crack, eh????????? And wouldn't this just generate cherenkov radiation?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 09:29:45 2002
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Charles Ford wrote:

>
> If one could create a container that is rigid against space then 
> travel at speeds in excess of C would not only be possible but could 
> be quite comfortable. 


Not unlike the proposal by M. Alcubierre:

http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw81.html

http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/relativity/papers/abstracts/miguel94a.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 11:07:33 2002
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To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: New solar neutrino data
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Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those
wacky theories about solar neutrino oscillation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm

Not really new, but solidly confirmed. I remember
several years back when this neutrino oscillation theory
would have been vortex material. The truth outs.

K. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 12:50:44 2002
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Hi Keith and all,

Quote:

"Using the underground Sudbury neutrino detector, an international group of
researchers has been able to determine that the observed number of
electron-neutrinos is only a fraction of the total number emitted from the
Sun - clear evidence that the particles change type en route to Earth. SNO
Project Director, Dr Art McDonald, of Queen's University, Canada, said the
number of electron-neutrinos detected combined with the numbers of other
types picked up at Sudbury gave a total that was consistent with scientists'
understanding of the nuclear reactions occurring at the Sun's core. "



I don't know much about solar neutrino theory, but something is obviously
wrong with the science here. Since when does a theory pre-empt the
experiments. The neutrinos are changing?? How do they KNOW that? Perhaps a
correct solar neutrino theory is missing. There is no clear evidence that
anything changed en route. Perhaps they should start thinking about revising
their theories to coincide with the evidence before their eyes.



Best Regards,

Colin Quinney



----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: New solar neutrino data


> Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those
> wacky theories about solar neutrino oscillation.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm
>
> Not really new, but solidly confirmed. I remember
> several years back when this neutrino oscillation theory
> would have been vortex material. The truth outs.
>
> K.
>
>


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Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data
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Hi Colin.

Well I'm no expert either; I defer to these guys

http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/snhistory.html

for some background on the problem. My understanding is
that the very reasons you provide were the impetus for
this "crazy" theory. Perhaps after reading the papers
you may be able to give us a deeper critique?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:44 PM
To: knagel gis.net
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data


Hi Keith and all,

Quote:

"Using the underground Sudbury neutrino detector, an international group of
researchers has been able to determine that the observed number of
electron-neutrinos is only a fraction of the total number emitted from the
Sun - clear evidence that the particles change type en route to Earth. SNO
Project Director, Dr Art McDonald, of Queen's University, Canada, said the
number of electron-neutrinos detected combined with the numbers of other
types picked up at Sudbury gave a total that was consistent with scientists'
understanding of the nuclear reactions occurring at the Sun's core. "



I don't know much about solar neutrino theory, but something is obviously
wrong with the science here. Since when does a theory pre-empt the
experiments. The neutrinos are changing?? How do they KNOW that? Perhaps a
correct solar neutrino theory is missing. There is no clear evidence that
anything changed en route. Perhaps they should start thinking about revising
their theories to coincide with the evidence before their eyes.



Best Regards,

Colin Quinney



----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: New solar neutrino data


> Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those
> wacky theories about solar neutrino oscillation.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm
>
> Not really new, but solidly confirmed. I remember
> several years back when this neutrino oscillation theory
> would have been vortex material. The truth outs.
>
> K.
>
>


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A deeper critique? Not likely with only my high school physics, but I did
read the following from your suggestion and it tends to indicate that indeed
neutrinos may change type as they travel through mass. Perhaps it's true,
but my first reaction is astonishment.

http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/universe5thed.html
Most easily detected are the so-called _electron-type_ neutrinos; more
difficult to detect are _muon-type_ and _tau-type_ neutrinos. Suppose some
from the Sun convert into neutrinos that are easier to detect as they pass
through the Earth at night on their way to the detector. The change would
make the Sun appear brighter at night than in the day. If that were seen, it
would provide a dramatic demonstration that unconventional physics is
occurring.*
*Note added in proof: Just as this book was going to press, scientists at
the Super Kamiokande neutrino observatory in Japan reported having observed
an effect of just this type. Their results indicate that electron-type and
muon-type neutrinos can indeed transform into each other as they pass
through matter, an effect called neutrino oscillation. The most recent
results from Super Kamiokande can be found on the World Wide Web
(http://www.phys.washington.edu/~superk/ or
http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/~superk/).


On the other hand-
probably because of the "missing" neutrino problem, there are theories that
have been developed that embrace the experiments that show the reduced
neutrino counts.
http://www.electric-universe.de/simple/intro.html

Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to comment on either model, but I do
believe that other models should be seriously looked at instead of only
modifying the current model.

Where do I stand? I believe in science. That is, I believe in experiment.
I'd like to see neutrino counts coming from a fusion reactor, so that the
changing of type can be verified right here on earth. If placing of thick
lead screens then cause the neutrinos to change type, I'll believe it. Until
then, I'm keeping my mind open to other possibilities :-)

Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; "Colin Quinney" <crquin@rogers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:20 PM
Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data


> Hi Colin.
>
> Well I'm no expert either; I defer to these guys
>
> http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/snhistory.html
>
> for some background on the problem. My understanding is
> that the very reasons you provide were the impetus for
> this "crazy" theory. Perhaps after reading the papers
> you may be able to give us a deeper critique?
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:44 PM
> To: knagel gis.net
> Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data
>
>
> Hi Keith and all,
>
> Quote:
>
> "Using the underground Sudbury neutrino detector, an international group
of
> researchers has been able to determine that the observed number of
> electron-neutrinos is only a fraction of the total number emitted from the
> Sun - clear evidence that the particles change type en route to Earth. SNO
> Project Director, Dr Art McDonald, of Queen's University, Canada, said the
> number of electron-neutrinos detected combined with the numbers of other
> types picked up at Sudbury gave a total that was consistent with
scientists'
> understanding of the nuclear reactions occurring at the Sun's core. "
>
>
>
> I don't know much about solar neutrino theory, but something is obviously
> wrong with the science here. Since when does a theory pre-empt the
> experiments. The neutrinos are changing?? How do they KNOW that? Perhaps a
> correct solar neutrino theory is missing. There is no clear evidence that
> anything changed en route. Perhaps they should start thinking about
revising
> their theories to coincide with the evidence before their eyes.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Colin Quinney
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:16 PM
> Subject: New solar neutrino data
>
>
> > Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those
> > wacky theories about solar neutrino oscillation.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm
> >
> > Not really new, but solidly confirmed. I remember
> > several years back when this neutrino oscillation theory
> > would have been vortex material. The truth outs.
> >
> > K.
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/20/2002
>


---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 14:54:22 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Colin Quinney" <crquin@rogers.com>
Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:03:41 -0400
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Hi Colin.

You write:
>Where do I stand? I believe in science. That is, I believe in experiment.
>I'd like to see neutrino counts coming from a fusion reactor, so that the
>changing of type can be verified right here on earth. If placing of thick
>lead screens then cause the neutrinos to change type, I'll believe it.

Most people would agree; sadly when you do the calcs you realize that
the reactor would have to be the size of the sun, and the mass about
the size of the earth, given the abysmal detection rate for neutrinos
for current detector technology.

Studying neutrinos is like studying gravity; it's awful hard to
do desktop experiments to prove out ideas. Otherwise they'd do
them; those academic boys are pretty sharp ya know (smile).

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:26 PM
To: knagel gis.net
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data


A deeper critique? Not likely with only my high school physics, but I did
read the following from your suggestion and it tends to indicate that indeed
neutrinos may change type as they travel through mass. Perhaps it's true,
but my first reaction is astonishment.

http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/universe5thed.html
Most easily detected are the so-called _electron-type_ neutrinos; more
difficult to detect are _muon-type_ and _tau-type_ neutrinos. Suppose some
from the Sun convert into neutrinos that are easier to detect as they pass
through the Earth at night on their way to the detector. The change would
make the Sun appear brighter at night than in the day. If that were seen, it
would provide a dramatic demonstration that unconventional physics is
occurring.*
*Note added in proof: Just as this book was going to press, scientists at
the Super Kamiokande neutrino observatory in Japan reported having observed
an effect of just this type. Their results indicate that electron-type and
muon-type neutrinos can indeed transform into each other as they pass
through matter, an effect called neutrino oscillation. The most recent
results from Super Kamiokande can be found on the World Wide Web
(http://www.phys.washington.edu/~superk/ or
http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/~superk/).


On the other hand-
probably because of the "missing" neutrino problem, there are theories that
have been developed that embrace the experiments that show the reduced
neutrino counts.
http://www.electric-universe.de/simple/intro.html

Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to comment on either model, but I do
believe that other models should be seriously looked at instead of only
modifying the current model.

Where do I stand? I believe in science. That is, I believe in experiment.
I'd like to see neutrino counts coming from a fusion reactor, so that the
changing of type can be verified right here on earth. If placing of thick
lead screens then cause the neutrinos to change type, I'll believe it. Until
then, I'm keeping my mind open to other possibilities :-)

Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; "Colin Quinney" <crquin@rogers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:20 PM
Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data


> Hi Colin.
>
> Well I'm no expert either; I defer to these guys
>
> http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/snhistory.html
>
> for some background on the problem. My understanding is
> that the very reasons you provide were the impetus for
> this "crazy" theory. Perhaps after reading the papers
> you may be able to give us a deeper critique?
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:44 PM
> To: knagel gis.net
> Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data
>
>
> Hi Keith and all,
>
> Quote:
>
> "Using the underground Sudbury neutrino detector, an international group
of
> researchers has been able to determine that the observed number of
> electron-neutrinos is only a fraction of the total number emitted from the
> Sun - clear evidence that the particles change type en route to Earth. SNO
> Project Director, Dr Art McDonald, of Queen's University, Canada, said the
> number of electron-neutrinos detected combined with the numbers of other
> types picked up at Sudbury gave a total that was consistent with
scientists'
> understanding of the nuclear reactions occurring at the Sun's core. "
>
>
>
> I don't know much about solar neutrino theory, but something is obviously
> wrong with the science here. Since when does a theory pre-empt the
> experiments. The neutrinos are changing?? How do they KNOW that? Perhaps a
> correct solar neutrino theory is missing. There is no clear evidence that
> anything changed en route. Perhaps they should start thinking about
revising
> their theories to coincide with the evidence before their eyes.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Colin Quinney
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:16 PM
> Subject: New solar neutrino data
>
>
> > Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those
> > wacky theories about solar neutrino oscillation.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm
> >
> > Not really new, but solidly confirmed. I remember
> > several years back when this neutrino oscillation theory
> > would have been vortex material. The truth outs.
> >
> > K.
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/20/2002
>


---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 15:56:32 2002
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
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Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAECFDDAA.knagel gis.net>
Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data
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Hi Keith,

That's too bad. Perhaps we should look elsewhere for developing a more
sensitive neutrino detector. Outside the box, is it possible that a Pons
Fleishman cell utilizes neutrinos as a catalyst? A CF neutrino detector <g>.
I merely jest, but then again, who knows??

Best
Colin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; "Colin Quinney" <crquin@rogers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data


> Hi Colin.
>
> You write:
> >Where do I stand? I believe in science. That is, I believe in experiment.
> >I'd like to see neutrino counts coming from a fusion reactor, so that the
> >changing of type can be verified right here on earth. If placing of thick
> >lead screens then cause the neutrinos to change type, I'll believe it.
>
> Most people would agree; sadly when you do the calcs you realize that
> the reactor would have to be the size of the sun, and the mass about
> the size of the earth, given the abysmal detection rate for neutrinos
> for current detector technology.
>
> Studying neutrinos is like studying gravity; it's awful hard to
> do desktop experiments to prove out ideas. Otherwise they'd do
> them; those academic boys are pretty sharp ya know (smile).
>
> K.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:26 PM
> To: knagel gis.net
> Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data
>
>
> A deeper critique? Not likely with only my high school physics, but I did
> read the following from your suggestion and it tends to indicate that
indeed
> neutrinos may change type as they travel through mass. Perhaps it's true,
> but my first reaction is astonishment.
>
> http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/universe5thed.html
> Most easily detected are the so-called _electron-type_ neutrinos; more
> difficult to detect are _muon-type_ and _tau-type_ neutrinos. Suppose some
> from the Sun convert into neutrinos that are easier to detect as they pass
> through the Earth at night on their way to the detector. The change would
> make the Sun appear brighter at night than in the day. If that were seen,
it
> would provide a dramatic demonstration that unconventional physics is
> occurring.*
> *Note added in proof: Just as this book was going to press, scientists at
> the Super Kamiokande neutrino observatory in Japan reported having
observed
> an effect of just this type. Their results indicate that electron-type and
> muon-type neutrinos can indeed transform into each other as they pass
> through matter, an effect called neutrino oscillation. The most recent
> results from Super Kamiokande can be found on the World Wide Web
> (http://www.phys.washington.edu/~superk/ or
> http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/~superk/).
>
>
> On the other hand-
> probably because of the "missing" neutrino problem, there are theories
that
> have been developed that embrace the experiments that show the reduced
> neutrino counts.
> http://www.electric-universe.de/simple/intro.html
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to comment on either model, but I do
> believe that other models should be seriously looked at instead of only
> modifying the current model.
>
> Where do I stand? I believe in science. That is, I believe in experiment.
> I'd like to see neutrino counts coming from a fusion reactor, so that the
> changing of type can be verified right here on earth. If placing of thick
> lead screens then cause the neutrinos to change type, I'll believe it.
Until
> then, I'm keeping my mind open to other possibilities :-)
>
> Colin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; "Colin Quinney" <crquin@rogers.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:20 PM
> Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data
>
>
> > Hi Colin.
> >
> > Well I'm no expert either; I defer to these guys
> >
> > http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/snhistory.html
> >
> > for some background on the problem. My understanding is
> > that the very reasons you provide were the impetus for
> > this "crazy" theory. Perhaps after reading the papers
> > you may be able to give us a deeper critique?
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:44 PM
> > To: knagel gis.net
> > Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data
> >
> >
> > Hi Keith and all,
> >
> > Quote:
> >
> > "Using the underground Sudbury neutrino detector, an international group
> of
> > researchers has been able to determine that the observed number of
> > electron-neutrinos is only a fraction of the total number emitted from
the
> > Sun - clear evidence that the particles change type en route to Earth.
SNO
> > Project Director, Dr Art McDonald, of Queen's University, Canada, said
the
> > number of electron-neutrinos detected combined with the numbers of other
> > types picked up at Sudbury gave a total that was consistent with
> scientists'
> > understanding of the nuclear reactions occurring at the Sun's core. "
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know much about solar neutrino theory, but something is
obviously
> > wrong with the science here. Since when does a theory pre-empt the
> > experiments. The neutrinos are changing?? How do they KNOW that? Perhaps
a
> > correct solar neutrino theory is missing. There is no clear evidence
that
> > anything changed en route. Perhaps they should start thinking about
> revising
> > their theories to coincide with the evidence before their eyes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Colin Quinney
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> > To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:16 PM
> > Subject: New solar neutrino data
> >
> >
> > > Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those
> > > wacky theories about solar neutrino oscillation.
> > >
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm
> > >
> > > Not really new, but solidly confirmed. I remember
> > > several years back when this neutrino oscillation theory
> > > would have been vortex material. The truth outs.
> > >
> > > K.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/20/2002
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/20/2002
>


---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 16:02:51 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: exceeding C
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:01:39 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <ncpbcucc7oj5jgecn0a5cbl14sm3bsse06 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Ron Wormus's message of Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:56:23 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>
>
>--On Monday, April 22, 2002 1:18 PM -0700 Stephen Lajoie 
><lajoie eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> That particles remain at below the speed of light, and follow SR, has been
>> demonstrated in many particle accellerators since about the 1960s. That is
>> pretty solid evidence otherwise.
>>
>
>Has this been proven for other than charged particles? It is easy to see 
>that the apparent increase in mass could be due electromagnetic forces.
>Ron

You can't accelerate neutral particles in an accelerator.
(And IMO mass does indeed increase, precisely as a consequence of
increasing magnetic field energy).
This is what leads me to suspect that time does not slow down, as
predicted by SR, but clocks do slow down, as a consequence of increasing
mass). If the chance of radioactive decay happening is dependant upon
internal vibration within the particle, and the mass of the particle
increases reducing the rate of vibration, then one might well expect the
half life to increase accordingly, thus providing an alternate
explanation than SR for the observed slowing of decay times in particle
accelerators (nice sentence eh ;).

BTW Ron, email to listservers works better if you leave the "reply to"
field blank (by default) in your email program.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 20:11:03 2002
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Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> Hi Keith,
> 
> That's too bad. Perhaps we should look elsewhere for developing a more
> sensitive neutrino detector. Outside the box, is it possible that a Pons
> Fleishman cell utilizes neutrinos as a catalyst? A CF neutrino detector <g>.
> I merely jest, but then again, who knows??
>

I love these neutrino experiments, because the results don't agree with
the
theory so they just construct another experiment and bizarre extensions
to the theory. They'll keep doing that
'til the results agree with the theory that the sun is a fusion powered
object.

That isn't science at all.  "When the experiment and the theory
disagree--the
theory wins"  -- the paradigm of modern "science".

Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System theory proposes that the sun is not
fusion
powered at all-- it is converting heavy elements directly to energy.

What would you expect, really?  The heavy elements migrate toward the
center.

See http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm

This is one of my favorite papers of Prof. Nehru.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 21:43:36 2002
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To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
Subject: RE: New solar neutrino data
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Hi Hoyt.

You Write:
>I love these neutrino experiments, because the results don't agree with
>the
>theory so they just construct another experiment and bizarre extensions
>to the theory. They'll keep doing that
>'til the results agree with the theory

Yep.

That's what they call the scientific method, I think...

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: hoyt [mailto:hoyt]On Behalf Of Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:03 PM
To: Colin Quinney
Cc: knagel gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data


Colin Quinney wrote:
>
> Hi Keith,
>
> That's too bad. Perhaps we should look elsewhere for developing a more
> sensitive neutrino detector. Outside the box, is it possible that a Pons
> Fleishman cell utilizes neutrinos as a catalyst? A CF neutrino detector
<g>.
> I merely jest, but then again, who knows??
>

I love these neutrino experiments, because the results don't agree with
the
theory so they just construct another experiment and bizarre extensions
to the theory. They'll keep doing that
'til the results agree with the theory that the sun is a fusion powered
object.

That isn't science at all.  "When the experiment and the theory
disagree--the
theory wins"  -- the paradigm of modern "science".

Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System theory proposes that the sun is not
fusion
powered at all-- it is converting heavy elements directly to energy.

What would you expect, really?  The heavy elements migrate toward the
center.

See http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm

This is one of my favorite papers of Prof. Nehru.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 24 07:37:13 2002
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Keith Nagel wrote:

Seems the folks up in Sudsbury have proven those wacky
theories about solar neutrino oscillation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm

Colin Quinney wrote:

... it tends to indicate that indeed neutrinos may change
type as they travel through mass. Perhaps it's true,
but my first reaction is astonishment.

http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/universe5thed.html

(http://www.phys.washington.edu/~superk/ or

http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/~superk/).

...  Where do I stand? I believe in science. That is,
I believe in experiment.  I'd like to see neutrino counts
coming from a fusion reactor, so that the changing of type
can be verified right here on earth. If placing of thick
lead screens then cause the neutrinos to change type,
I'll believe it. Until then, I'm keeping my mind open to
other possibilities :-)

Keith Nagel wrote:

Most people would agree; sadly when you do the calcs you
realize that the reactor would have to be the size of the
sun, and the mass about the size of the earth, given the
abysmal detection rate for neutrinos for current detector
technology.

Studying neutrinos is like studying gravity; it's
awful hard to do desktop experiments to prove out
ideas. Otherwise they'd do them; those academic boys are
pretty sharp ya know (smile).

http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/Papers/Popular/snhistory.html

Hoyt Stearns wrote:

... Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System theory proposes that
the sun is not fusion powered at all-- it is converting
heavy elements directly to energy.

See http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm

--------------------------------

NEWS ARTICLE from THE WASHINGTON POST. 4-21-02, By Guy
Gugliotta

``Researchers find 'missing' neutrinos

Canadian mine yields discovery about mysterious particles

WASHINGTON, April 21, 2002 --  More than a mile deep within
the bowels of a Canadian nickel mine, scientists for the
first time have counted all the solar neutrinos that are
hitting the Earth, researchers announced yesterday.

'For the first time, we've been able to measure all of
the neutrinos at once. You've got it all.'

- EUGENE BEIER, University of Pennsylvania

... EXPLAINING A 'DEFICIT'

Last year, in its first report since the observatory began
operation, the research team showed that the "deficit"
existed not because the neutrinos were mysteriously
disappearing, but simply because muon and tau neutrinos
could not be reliably counted.

But that experiment was based on tabulations comparing
Sudbury data that measured only electron neutrinos with
data from another underground lab that was measuring
electron neutrinos and a bit of something else - presumably
muons and taus.

Then, however, the Sudbury scientists dug deeper into
their data. By screening out residual radioactivity and
other unwanted interference, they isolated the reaction
they wanted.

"When the neutrino enters the tank, it can collide with a
heavy water nucleus and knock a neutron loose," explained
University of Washington physicist Hamish Robertson,
another member of the team. "The neutron will bounce
around, hit another nucleus and combine to form a tritium
nucleus [another type of heavy water] and give off a gamma
ray at the same time."

By counting the gamma rays, scientists know how many
neutrinos there are, because "any flavor of neutrino will
cause this to occur," Robertson said. "This is a very
direct and obvious way to measure all the neutrinos in a
single operation." ''

Hi All,

A critical question is whether or not there is some other
source of neutrons in the tank besides neutrinos.

In regard to Colin Quinney's remark that "I'd like to see
neutrino counts coming from a fusion reactor," and Keith
Nagel's remark that "the reactor would have to be the size
of the sun, and the mass about the size of the earth ...",
Reines' Nobel-winning research used the Savannah fission
reactor to prove the existence of neutrinos  -- a highly
flawed experiment as previously discussed on this list.

I'm curious what Robin van Spaandonk thinks about this
most recent reinterpretation of the data.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 24 14:23:47 2002
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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:20:31 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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What a bizarre idea!

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20020424b3.htm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 24 14:38:36 2002
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From: aki ix.netcom.com
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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: ABCNEWS.com: Forget Mideast, Heres New Source of Oil Wealth
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You have received this ABCNEWS.com mail from:

Akira Kawasaki
aki ix.netcom.com

I thought you might find this story interesting.

Forget Mideast, Heres New Source of Oil Wealth
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/newmideast_020424.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 24 15:25:09 2002
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Marvelous! But even if it works environmentalist concerns would probably 
prevent this technology from being used. Also it would require a chain of 
laser relay stations costing fantastic amounts of money. And how would you 
cross the ocean? With floating relay stations?

This resembles the interstellar space rocket chain and particle beam idea I 
floated the other day. An astronomer and space buff told me that someone 
named Jordin Kare came up with this around 1994-95. It is such as simple 
idea I'm sure many people have thought of it. Over the years, people have 
proposed that ground-based lasers be used for first stage rocket boosters. 
I think this would be more practical than an airplane, because a rocket 
would take off and go more or less straight up, so you only need one or two 
ground based lasers in a restricted launch area, not a long chain crossing 
continents and oceans. A smaller conventional rocket would take over 
outside the atmosphere.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 24 16:05:52 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:02:30 +1000
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In reply to  Taylor J. Smith's message of Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:30:22
+0000:
Hi,
[snip]
>"When the neutrino enters the tank, it can collide with a
>heavy water nucleus and knock a neutron loose," explained
>University of Washington physicist Hamish Robertson,
>another member of the team. "The neutron will bounce
>around, hit another nucleus and combine to form a tritium
>nucleus [another type of heavy water] and give off a gamma
>ray at the same time."
>
>By counting the gamma rays, scientists know how many
>neutrinos there are, because "any flavor of neutrino will
>cause this to occur," Robertson said. "This is a very
>direct and obvious way to measure all the neutrinos in a
>single operation." ''
[snip]
>I'm curious what Robin van Spaandonk thinks about this
>most recent reinterpretation of the data.
>
>Jack Smith
>
Solar electron neutrinos from the PP reaction don't have enough energy
to knock a neutron from a deuteron. 99.99% of the time they have less
than .5 MeV, and most of the remainder have less than 1.4 MeV. They
would need 2.2 MeV.

If they are measuring electron neutrinos, then they either come from
different fusion reactions (e.g. carbon cycle), or they aren't from the
sun.

AFAIK the carbon cycle plays as yet only a very minor role in solar
fusion.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 03:14:59 2002
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:11:46 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: exceeding C
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:18:28PM -0700, Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> 
> > The distinction here is what you would see, versus what actually
> > happens.  I maintain that it's quite possible to go faster than the
> > speed of light, and we've got no evidence to suggest otherwise.  On
> 
> That particles remain at below the speed of light, and follow SR, has been
> demonstrated in many particle accellerators since about the 1960s. That is
> pretty solid evidence otherwise. 
> 

We are talking about different kinds of velocity here though.  In a
particle accelerator we're talking about angular velocity, whereas in
the spaceship case we're talking about linear velocity around a
geodesic.  In the particle accelerator case it's possible that we
can't obtain C because of the configuration of the PA.
 
> > the otherhand if we wanted to observe what was happening we've have
> > to take the speed of light into consideration, because that's the
> > speed at which we're able to obtain information from a distance.
> > The limits that special relativity places are observational limits,
> > limits to the measurement process.
> 
> No. See, Rindler's book. 

Which one, and which bit?

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 03:17:20 2002
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:15:27PM -0700, Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> > >On
> > >
> > >     t / SecondsInAYear = 6.21 x 10^7 / 3.15 x 10^7 = 1.97 years
> > >
> > >Joe
> > 
> > If you go 4 light years in 1.97 years, you're going to have to exceed 
> > C by a considerable amount. I've heard speculation that when you 
> > exceed C, your vehicle will turn into energy. This would be very 
> > interesting to watch, from a good safe distance, about one light year.
> 
> If you go faster than light, you are no longer in this universe. 
> 

In what sense are you not in this universe?  I have a suspicion your
"universe" is smaller than mine ;).

Which universe are you in then, and maybe more interestingly what
happens when you leave this "universe" and end up in that one?

> If you use all the energy in this universe, you would not have enough
> energy to make any massive particle move at the speed of light. 

Surely we've got to be a bit careful with our words here.  Remember that
by SR energy and velocity of light are intrinsicly interrelated.  It's
easy to look at an equation, but forget the underlying assumptions that
were used to form that equation in the first place.

To me, it's not E = mc^2, it's E/c = mc.

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 07:34:11 2002
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Subject: Segways now in use; safety concerns raised
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See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44020-2002Apr24.html

Quote:

Toohey concedes that it was unusual for the company to seek regulatory 
approval -- both from U.S. regulators and from state legislatures -- before 
selling the product to the public. "We're simply being proactive and had 
quite a lot of success," he said. "What we've done is show the product, 
demonstrate it, and let them [the legislators] experience it. When we've 
done that, people get big smiles on their faces, and they become very 
supportive."


That is a wise business strategy. I hope CF developers are equally smart.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 09:11:46 2002
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:08:20 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Celani on line!
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I didn't know this was out there:

http://www.memex.it/Fusione/Celani.htm

I found it searching for "deuterium hydrogen atomic ratio." Does anyone 
happen to know this ratio? Deuterium is 150 PPM of ordinary water, or 1 
part in 6700. I presume this includes the oxygen. Does anyone know the 
atomic ratio ignoring oxygen? I am curious about this because some of the 
newer techniques for separating D and H begin by fracturing water with 
electrolysis, and tossing out the oxygen.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 09:51:59 2002
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Subject: Found H:D ratio
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 m>
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I wrote:

>I found it searching for "deuterium hydrogen atomic ratio." Does anyone 
>happen to know this ratio? Deuterium is 150 PPM of ordinary water, or 1 
>part in 6700 . . .

Never mind. Found it:

Walter Hamer, H. Steffen Peiser, NIST, A Hydrogen Isotope of Mass 2, 
http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/sp958-lide/043-045.pdf

It says, "The modern best estimate of that ratio is 5433.78 in unaltered 
terrestrial hydrogen."

This is a good two-page history of deuterium.

Here is an interesting footnote to history. Brickwedde, one of the 
discovers, died in 1989, just as cold fusion was being revealed to the 
world. 1989 was a monumental turning points in history, politically and 
scientifically. If cold fusion is ever recognized, a thousand years from 
now people will say that 1989 was one of those critical years such as 1066, 
1914 or 1945 when the world changed unexpectedly and irrevocably. They may 
not remember the cold war ended, but they will remember Pons and 
Fleischmann. Long after communism and capitalism are forgotten relics of 
history, mankind will remember them, and will still be in their debt.

Scientifically, 1989 was a watershed year, in which great events occurred 
but people did not notice at first, or they did not acknowledge the 
significance of the events. Examples include Ignaz Semmelweis (1847), the 
voyage of the Beagle (1831), and the first flight at Kitty Hawk (1903).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:49 2002
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On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I didn't know this was out there:
> 
> http://www.memex.it/Fusione/Celani.htm

I would (will?) use Ti metal in a gas loading config and oxidize the
negative end to prevent the deuterium from escaping the region of high
deuterium number density. 

This will allow the positive region to load even more deuterium, which
will be pushed down to the negative region. 
 
> I found it searching for "deuterium hydrogen atomic ratio." Does anyone 
> happen to know this ratio? Deuterium is 150 PPM of ordinary water, or 1 
> part in 6700. I presume this includes the oxygen. Does anyone know the 
> atomic ratio ignoring oxygen? I am curious about this because some of the 
> newer techniques for separating D and H begin by fracturing water with 
> electrolysis, and tossing out the oxygen.

Do a search oin the table of the isotopes, click on H. For example,

http://ie.lbl.gov/education/parent/H_iso.htm

Note that the abundance of D is 0.015%. Tritium, 3H, is not found in
nature, something the skeptics reading the Fusion technology paper seems
to have forgotten. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:54 2002
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: exceeding C
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On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Josef Karthauser wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:18:28PM -0700, Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> > 
> > > The distinction here is what you would see, versus what actually
> > > happens.  I maintain that it's quite possible to go faster than the
> > > speed of light, and we've got no evidence to suggest otherwise.  On
> > 
> > That particles remain at below the speed of light, and follow SR, has been
> > demonstrated in many particle accellerators since about the 1960s. That is
> > pretty solid evidence otherwise. 
> > 
> 
> We are talking about different kinds of velocity here though.  In a
> particle accelerator we're talking about angular velocity, whereas in
> the spaceship case we're talking about linear velocity around a
> geodesic.  In the particle accelerator case it's possible that we
> can't obtain C because of the configuration of the PA.

1) There are linear accelerators, as well as circular ones. 
2) It doesn't make a difference if circuylar or linear, the effect is the
same.
3) You are clearly useing a theory that I don't know anything about, and
not SR/GR. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 12:30:23 2002
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:14:28 -0400
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Subject: OTA archives
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Here is a comprehensive source of information:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/

This is the complete archives of the Congressional Office of Technology 
Assessment, which closed on September 29, 1995. The OTA had a reputation 
for being objective and nonpartisan. Perhaps this is why it was shut down. 
I found this site while searching for a 1990 OTA report described by 
Pimentel, p. 261. He summarizes the conclusion: "about 72 percent more 
energy is required to produce a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of ethanol 
yields." That must have been unpopular with members of Congress who 
accepted large contributions from Archer Daniels Midland and big oil.

The U.S. government is odd. It often produces biased decisions, and 
programs such as hot fusion and ethanol. Yet its reports and statistics are 
usually scrupulously honest, even when they point to problems in government 
policy. Naturally, you cannot trust these reports without verification. You 
should crosscheck them with industry data and publications from left and 
right wing organizations.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:05 2002
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Subject: Re: Celani on line!
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>Note that the abundance of D is 0.015%.

Hmmm . . . That's 150 ppm, the same as that first source I found. I guess 
that did not include oxygen. If it did it would be 123 ppm (1 D for every 
5433 H+2717 O).

The source I found works out to be 0.018 at%. Oh, well! Close enough for 
government work.


>Tritium, 3H, is not found in nature, something the skeptics reading the 
>Fusion technology paper seems to have forgotten.

Yes. The skeptics might respond that tritium *is* often found in heavy 
water. They forget that researchers always measure tritium before they 
start an experiment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 13:45:21 2002
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On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> 
> >Tritium, 3H, is not found in nature, something the skeptics reading the 
> >Fusion technology paper seems to have forgotten.
> 
> Yes. The skeptics might respond that tritium *is* often found in heavy 
> water. They forget that researchers always measure tritium before they 
> start an experiment.
> 

The skeptics will respond by sayting that tritium is found in heavy water.
I don't see how that can be, since heavy wateris made with deuterium
sepearated from naturally occru8ing hydrogen isotopes and not by a nuclear
process. 

If you buy 5 nines pure deuterium, I'd be very surprised to find that it
contained 10% or so of tritium. I'd ask for a refund.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:33 2002
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Subject: Tritium in heavy water
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>The skeptics will respond by sayting that tritium is found in heavy water. 
>I don't see how that can be, since heavy wateris made with deuterium 
>sepearated from naturally occru8ing hydrogen isotopes and not by a nuclear 
>process. . . .

Ontario Hydro (OH) supplies most of the world's virgin heavy water. At 
least it used to. I gather it may be out of business. The industrial 
process OH used ended up adding tritium to the heavy water. I don't recall 
the reason. The tritium did not come from OH's CANDU reactors, as claimed 
by Nate Hoffman. See my review of his book. An OH executive told me that 
used, recycled moderator water has 100 million times too much radioactive 
garbage to be sold to the public.


>If you buy 5 nines pure deuterium, I'd be very surprised to find that it
>contained 10% or so of tritium. I'd ask for a refund.

It is nowhere near 10%! You could ask them to pay your funeral expenses if 
it was. Besides, tritium is worth a fortune. Saddam Hussein would love to 
get hold of some. However, the amounts in new heavy water are sometimes 
high enough to register on the instruments. If you do not measure the 
tritium before you begin a CF experiment, you might mistakenly conclude 
that CF generated some that was there already. But nobody would do an 
experiment without first establishing a baseline for all instrument readings.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 25 16:13:39 2002
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Yes, Ontario Hydro no longer makes heavy water because they have on hand more
than they can use for many years.  The tritium found in heavy water comes
tritium in the environment resulting from atomic testing.  The amount is very
small, usually being less than 10^7 atoms/cc.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
>
> >The skeptics will respond by sayting that tritium is found in heavy water.
> >I don't see how that can be, since heavy wateris made with deuterium
> >sepearated from naturally occru8ing hydrogen isotopes and not by a nuclear
> >process. . . .
>
> Ontario Hydro (OH) supplies most of the world's virgin heavy water. At
> least it used to. I gather it may be out of business. The industrial
> process OH used ended up adding tritium to the heavy water. I don't recall
> the reason. The tritium did not come from OH's CANDU reactors, as claimed
> by Nate Hoffman. See my review of his book. An OH executive told me that
> used, recycled moderator water has 100 million times too much radioactive
> garbage to be sold to the public.
>
> >If you buy 5 nines pure deuterium, I'd be very surprised to find that it
> >contained 10% or so of tritium. I'd ask for a refund.
>
> It is nowhere near 10%! You could ask them to pay your funeral expenses if
> it was. Besides, tritium is worth a fortune. Saddam Hussein would love to
> get hold of some. However, the amounts in new heavy water are sometimes
> high enough to register on the instruments. If you do not measure the
> tritium before you begin a CF experiment, you might mistakenly conclude
> that CF generated some that was there already. But nobody would do an
> experiment without first establishing a baseline for all instrument readings.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 05:38:21 2002
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:34:49 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> It is nowhere near 10%! You could ask them to pay your funeral 
> expenses if it was. Besides, tritium is worth a fortune. 

I imagine they had to remove virtually all of the tritium from 1000 
tonnes of heavy water to get the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory to work:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm

How do you do that?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 06:12:46 2002
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    http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/sonolum.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 07:41:27 2002
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Subject: OFF TOPIC Anti-spam tool
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This filter tool is remarkably good at recognizing spam:

http://www.mailwasher.net/

It "bounces" spam back to the sender, with a header that looks as if your 
address is invalid.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 08:08:43 2002
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:03:58 -0400
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Subject: Paper about Dispersed Generation
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I have a paper in .pdf format about distributed peak power generators that 
some readers might find interesting, and also two trade magazine articles 
with photos. These are unattended diesel generators ranging from 600 kW to 
2 MW. Title & abstract:


Dispersed Generation
Reduce Power Costs and Improve Service Reliability
Bruce Maurhoff, P.E., Gary Wood, P.E., Central Virginia Electric 
Cooperative, Lovingston, Virginia

"INTRODUCTION

The purpose of engineering is to find solutions to problems. At its very 
best, an engineering solution can turn a serious problem
into a glowing success story. This is what happened when Central Virginia 
Electric Cooperative (CVEC) decided to undertake distribution line load 
aggregation for standby and peaksharing purposes."


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 08:13:04 2002
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On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Terry Blanton wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > It is nowhere near 10%! You could ask them to pay your funeral 
> > expenses if it was. Besides, tritium is worth a fortune. 
> 
> I imagine they had to remove virtually all of the tritium from 1000 
> tonnes of heavy water to get the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory to work:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1943000/1943837.stm
> 
> How do you do that?

I've not heard about adding tritium to make heavy water.
I suspect it is disinformation created by the skeptics, but I am still
looking for a source that may say that they do this, and why. (To me, it
sounds stupid as hell ...)

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/sno/D2O.html



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 08:48:33 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Tritium in heavy water
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>I've not heard about adding tritium to make heavy water.
>I suspect it is disinformation created by the skeptics . . .

No, it has been observed by CF scientists as well.


>, but I am still
>looking for a source that may say that they do this, and why.

They do this by accident, as Ed Storms pointed out. He says it comes from 
"atomic testing," meeting bombs I assume. I vaguely recall hearing that at 
the Ontario Hydro plants, trace amounts of tritium contamination comes from 
the nearby Candu reactors. I think they use waste heat from power reactors 
in the chemical processing. As I said, the tritium does not come from heavy 
water that has actually been used as Candu moderator water. That is what 
Nate Hoffman thought. He should have checked. They would have told him they 
only sell virgin, unused heavy water.

There are several different ways to extract heavy water. The methods now 
widely used are inefficient and obsolete, but there is no incentive to 
improve them because there is little demand for heavy water. Energy is 70% 
of the cost of heavy water with present-day techniques. In India, after 
strenuous efforts to conserve energy at heavy water plants, it now takes 
38,000 MJ/kg to extract heavy water.  See:

http://www.heavywaterboard.org/docs/prenov14.htm

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and The Japan Atomic Power Company predict, 
"heavy water cost will be decreased drastically with up-to-date 
[production] methods."

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Tritium in heby water <achoo>
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 m>
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I wrote:

>They do this by accident, as Ed Storms pointed out. He says it comes from 
>"atomic testing," meeting bombs I assume. . . .

Meant "meaning bombs." I hab stuffed sinuses from the bine bollen <achoo!> 
. . . and voice input is making even more mistakes than normal. This is yet 
another unanticipated modern annoyance, like spam. "Popular Science" should 
have warned us!

I once saw a dramatization of the life of Alexander Graham Bell. Toward the 
end he is an old man tinkering in his workshop. He is interrupted by a 
telemarketer. (They had them, even back in 1920.) Poetic justice!

- Jed

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Subject: "An unfortunate sequence of events"
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While researching safety issues with conventional generators, I came across 
this laconic description of an accident at a 500 MW coal fired plant:

"The boiler was off line for routine maintenance in February, 1999. Due to 
an unfortunate sequence of events, the boiler filled up with natural gas 
and subsequently exploded. The eleven-story structure was reduced to a 
five-story pile of rubble."
- http://www.babcock.com/pgg/tt/pdf/BR-1724.pdf

Fortunately, no one was seriously hurt.

CF may have some inherent risks, but so do all conventional energy systems.

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Apr 26, 2002
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:00:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 26 Apr 02   Washington, DC

1. TOURIST CLASS: ANOTHER GUEST CHECKS IN AT THE ISS SPACE SPA.  
South African entrepreneur Mark Shuttleworth paid the Russians
$20M up front for a week at the resort.  Dennis Tito, who became
the first space tourist a year ago, was snubbed by NASA.  He was
not allowed to train at the Johnson Space Center, or permitted to
enter U.S. modules on the station unless accompanied by an adult. 
To make his vacation truly lousy he had a sick stomach the whole
time. Shuttleworth, however, could train at Johnson and will even
be allowed to play with the computers.  You might think tourism
would be a great way to pay off the cost overrun on the station -
- just another 200 guests would do it.  Alas, the transportation
is not free.  The budget for the shuttle is $4B.  For that, NASA
manages to launch a shuttle about four times a year.  That comes
to about $1B per launch or 50 times the going rate for a week at
the ISS.  Using the space station as a fantasy adventure for the
too rich is not what taxpayers thought they were buying, but
there's really not much else you can do with a space station. 

2. THE UNIVERSE: AGE DISCREPANCY RESOLVED, NEUTRINOS FOUND.  A
few years ago, the media delighted in reporting that stars had
been found that were much older than the universe.  Reporters
would call and ask, "how can you explain that?"  The answer was
simple, "somebody is wrong."  Now, the Hubble Space Telescope has
been used to make an age measurement based on the cooling of a
white dwarf.  It puts the age at about 13 billion years, which is
consistent with most estimates.  Some still think it might be
even older, but at least the contradiction is gone.  Meanwhile,
at the Sudbury Observatory, deep inside the Creighton Nickel Mine
in Canada, scientists from Canada, the U.S. and the U.K. have for
the first time measured the total solar neutrino flux.  Result?
Neutrino oscillation is real; neutrinos really do have mass.

3. NO BIG BANG?  AN OSCILLATING UNIVERSE IS PROPOSED.  Well, the
creationists have always said there was no big bang.  Now we're
hearing it from couple of serious physicists, but creationists
will like this theory even less.  In a paper that will appear in
Science magazine, Neil Turok of Cambridge, and Paul Steinhardt of
Princeton, have proposed an oscillating universe that expands and
contracts in an eternal cycle.  In one form or another, this idea
has been around for a long time.  But according to today's Wall
Street Journal, the authors show that in their model things like
inflation, dark energy and cosmic inflation emerge naturally, and
the theory does not have to explain the beginning of time.  I do
not know if Science embargoed the Steinhardt and Turok paper. 

4. OBITUARY: Victor Weisskopf, a great and beloved physicist died
Monday at 93.  He worked on the Manhattan Project and then warned
the world of the consequences of using nuclear weapons.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND  and  THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 26 14:45:32 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "An unfortunate sequence of events"
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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> While researching safety issues with conventional generators,
> I came across 
> this laconic description of an accident at a 500 MW coal
> fired plant:
> 

Makes me curious...  What "unfortunate sequence of events" is
so embarrassing that they remain referred to only as
"unfortunate sequence of events"

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 27 15:16:19 2002
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  R. Boerner's rejected AMAZON.COM review
  http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/voodooscience.html


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 28 07:55:34 2002
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Bill, can you tell me how I might contact R. Boerner.  I would like to
send him my equally critical review of Park's book which can be found at
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.  Apparently a person is
allowed to criticize ideas and make fun of individuals in a book, but a
person is not allowed to criticize the authors of these books for using
such methods.  I also experienced the same attitude when I tried to get
my review published.  This double standard infects all aspects of culture
in the US these days, reaching into science, business, medicine, and now
even the Catholic Church.  While a person (Jed) might argue that this has
always been the case, so get used to it.  Nevertheless, the magnitude of
this problem appears to be increasing, at least in recent times.

Ed Storms

William Beaty wrote:

>   R. Boerner's rejected AMAZON.COM review
>   http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/voodooscience.html
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 28 09:00:12 2002
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <176.7622961.29fd75bb aol.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:56:43 EDT
Subject: How to travel to other solar systems & the future to make a nice Earth future. 
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--part1_176.7622961.29fd75bb_boundary
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There is a way for a space ship, using SEARL space drive technologies which 
are faster than light speed, to travel from Earth to another solar system 
nearby which has a slower time frame than Earth, due to the Sun's solar 
speed. And then the passengers in the space ship, would live in a slower time 
frame than here on Earth, and in a sense be able to come back to Earth, in 
the future, of Earth.  

In this way someone today, on Earth, could travel to this solar system, live 
there for a few years, if there Sun was 200 times slower than ours, and come 
back to Earth, in Earth's future, 200 years from now. And if Earth were to 
send out some individuals who were very ethical and can be trusted on this 
voyage presently, they then can go to the future of Earth 200 years form now, 
and set up plans for Earth in the future, based on plans from Earth in the 
past, to guarantee a nice future for Earth presently.

If the United States, sent someone like Thomas Jefferson or George 
Washington, on this ship, to the future, they could then guarantee the 
original principles of the founding fathers, in the future 200 years for now, 
to come back in time, to make a nice future for the U.S. and Earth, 
presently. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\pesonal



--part1_176.7622961.29fd75bb_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>There is a way for a space ship, using SEARL space drive technologies which are faster than light speed, to travel from Earth to another solar system nearby which has a slower time frame than Earth, due to the Sun's solar speed. And then the passengers in the space ship, would live in a slower time frame than here on Earth, and in a sense be able to come back to Earth, in the future, of Earth. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>In this way someone today, on Earth, could travel to this solar system, live there for a few years, if there Sun was 200 times slower than ours, and come back to Earth, in Earth's future, 200 years from now. And if Earth were to send out some individuals who were very ethical and can be trusted on this voyage presently, they then can go to the future of Earth 200 years form now, and set up plans for Earth in the future, based on plans from Earth in the past, to guarantee a nice future for Earth presently.
<BR>
<BR>If the United States, sent someone like Thomas Jefferson or George Washington, on this ship, to the future, they could then guarantee the original principles of the founding fathers, in the future 200 years for now, to come back in time, to make a nice future for the U.S. and Earth, presently. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\pesonal
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_176.7622961.29fd75bb_boundary--

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 Earth future.
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--------------2D6D700D30BD9743343A81C0
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I nice idea, but have you considered that a person from
today who returned to the earth 200 years from now would
find that his language could not be understood by most
people, his habits would be strange, and his ideas would be
ignored, even if he had the wisdom of Washington.  People
have influence only in the context of their time and their
culture, a fact that the movies about time travel overlook
so that a story can be told.

Ed Storms

ConexTom aol.com wrote:

> There is a way for a space ship, using SEARL space drive
> technologies which are faster than light speed, to travel
> from Earth to another solar system nearby which has a
> slower time frame than Earth, due to the Sun's solar
> speed. And then the passengers in the space ship, would
> live in a slower time frame than here on Earth, and in a
> sense be able to come back to Earth, in the future, of
> Earth.
>
> In this way someone today, on Earth, could travel to this
> solar system, live there for a few years, if there Sun was
> 200 times slower than ours, and come back to Earth, in
> Earth's future, 200 years from now. And if Earth were to
> send out some individuals who were very ethical and can be
> trusted on this voyage presently, they then can go to the
> future of Earth 200 years form now, and set up plans for
> Earth in the future, based on plans from Earth in the
> past, to guarantee a nice future for Earth presently.
>
> If the United States, sent someone like Thomas Jefferson
> or George Washington, on this ship, to the future, they
> could then guarantee the original principles of the
> founding fathers, in the future 200 years for now, to come
> back in time, to make a nice future for the U.S. and
> Earth, presently.
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
> Thomas Clark
> tom rhfweb.com
> www.rhfweb.com\pesonal
>

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I nice idea, but have you considered that a person from today who returned
to the earth 200 years from now would find that his language could not
be understood by most people, his habits would be strange, and his ideas
would be ignored, even if he had the wisdom of Washington.&nbsp; People
have influence only in the context of their time and their culture, a fact
that the movies about time travel overlook so that a story can be told.
<p>Ed Storms
<p>ConexTom aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>There
is a way for a space ship, using SEARL space drive technologies which are
faster than light speed, to travel from Earth to another solar system nearby
which has a slower time frame than Earth, due to the Sun's solar speed.
And then the passengers in the space ship, would live in a slower time
frame than here on Earth, and in a sense be able to come back to Earth,
in the future, of Earth.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>In this way someone today,
on Earth, could travel to this solar system, live there for a few years,
if there Sun was 200 times slower than ours, and come back to Earth, in
Earth's future, 200 years from now. And if Earth were to send out some
individuals who were very ethical and can be trusted on this voyage presently,
they then can go to the future of Earth 200 years form now, and set up
plans for Earth in the future, based on plans from Earth in the past, to
guarantee a nice future for Earth presently.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>If the United States, sent
someone like Thomas Jefferson or George Washington, on this ship, to the
future, they could then guarantee the original principles of the founding
fathers, in the future 200 years for now, to come back in time, to make
a nice future for the U.S. and Earth, presently.</font></font>
<br>&nbsp;
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Respectfully,</font></font>
<br>&nbsp;
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Thomas Clark</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>tom rhfweb.com</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>www.rhfweb.com\pesonal</font></font>
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 28 11:33:38 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Scathing review of Park's VOODOO SCIENCE
In-Reply-To: <3CCC0040.6F4F0B40 ix.netcom.com>
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>This double standard infects all aspects of culture in the US these days, 
>reaching into science, business, medicine, and now even the Catholic 
>Church.  While a person (Jed) might argue that this has always been the 
>case, so get used to it.

I would not say "get used to it." Actually, my message is mainly positive 
and proactive. I would say "have hope, you can probably fix it, and even if 
you can't things may not be so bad." It seems to me:

The double standard is present in all societies & institutions to some 
extent. It ebbs and flows. It can never be eliminated, but it can be reduced.

Because it is always present, we should not feel that our society is 
particularly degenerate, or beyond hope, or our situation is unprecedented. 
Other people in the past have successfully reduced the problem, so we can too.

If cold fusion succeeds it will vaccinate society against the double 
standard for a long time. Not completely, and not forever.

Probably, before this trend goes to extremes, something will counteract it. 
Things seldom go to hell in a handbasket. Occasionally, societies go over 
the edge: Rome fell, Europe fought World War I and II. On balance, I think 
history teaches us to be cautiously optimistic. Overall, we have made more 
progress than backsliding. Overall, on average, society is probably less 
hypocritical, and more free, fair and equitable then it has ever been, and 
especially for minorities and women.

- Jed

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"Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." wrote:

>
> http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm
>
> This is one of my favorite papers of Prof. Nehru.
>
> Hoyt Stearns
> Scottsdale Arizona

Thanks Hoyt, this site is amazing.  Finally, someone has put together a model
that makes sense of what has been ignored by conventional physics.  I hope
everyone would study this site while keeping in mind all of the observed
phenomena that have resisted an explanation in the past.

Ed Storms


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In a message dated 4/28/2002 1:33:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:


>  People have influence only in the context of their time and their culture, 
> a fact that the movies about time travel overlook so that a story can be 
> told. 

Thank you for reminding me of that very fine point. I do know that I have a 
strong connection with historical figures such as the founding fathers and a 
high respect and gratitude for their achievements that gave me the chance to 
experience the freedoms that constitution of the U.S. once allowed, even 
though today some of those freedoms seem to be reduced by the misuse of high 
technology.   

I also listen to and base many of my decisions on many of the ideas of 
historical figures such as the founding fathers from the past as if they were 
here today, whereas other citizens in our present age, may not listen to the 
founding fathers today, even if they had traveled to our age today from the 
past in a space ship. 

I must admit I find this very unbelievable, that many citizens of today, may 
not respect the wisdom and deeds of great historical figures from the past.  
And citizens in the future, due to high technology, may also become more 
selfish, and less respectful of the great deeds of great men form the past, 
who devoted their lives, so that others may live free and happy lives in the 
future. 

I came up with the idea of using the founding fathers in my last email as an 
example for time travel, due to the inspiration of the book I read by Paul 
Anderson, called the New America, where some Jeffersonians, leave Earth for 
another planet, to reapply the principles of the founding fathers, on another 
planet. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal





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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/28/2002 1:33:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> People have influence only in the context of their time and their culture, a fact that the movies about time travel overlook so that a story can be told. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you for reminding me of that very fine point. I do know that I have a strong connection with historical figures such as the founding fathers and a high respect and gratitude for their achievements that gave me the chance to experience the freedoms that constitution of the U.S. once allowed, even though today some of those freedoms seem to be reduced by the misuse of high technology. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>I also listen to and base many of my decisions on many of the ideas of historical figures such as the founding fathers from the past as if they were here today, whereas other citizens in our present age, may not listen to the founding fathers today, even if they had traveled to our age today from the past in a space ship. 
<BR>
<BR>I must admit I find this very unbelievable, that many citizens of today, may not respect the wisdom and deeds of great historical figures from the past. &nbsp;And citizens in the future, due to high technology, may also become more selfish, and less respectful of the great deeds of great men form the past, who devoted their lives, so that others may live free and happy lives in the future. 
<BR>
<BR>I came up with the idea of using the founding fathers in my last email as an example for time travel, due to the inspiration of the book I read by Paul Anderson, called the New America, where some Jeffersonians, leave Earth for another planet, to reapply the principles of the founding fathers, on another planet. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:


> http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm
> 

Thanks for this reference, it may help me figure out how to change the speed 
of time at any point in space, by means of scalar waves, by changing the 
speed of rotation of the subatomic particles, as explained at the web site. I 
will have to read this more carefully, to fully understand it all. 

"If the rotation in the electric dimension is involved only in the transverse 
effect, another possibility opens up. In view of the space-time symmetry 
around unity, a speed n can achieve the effect of inverting the space-time 
orientation of the rotation by its ability to act in the capacity of its 
reciprocal, namely, the speed 1/n. But this ability to act as its reciprocal 
is limited only to the transverse effect and cannot extend to the collinear 
effect, since the transverse effect is an inverse effect itself."
    
Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/28/2002 4:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thanks for this reference, it may help me figure out how to change the speed of time at any point in space, by means of scalar waves, by changing the speed of rotation of the subatomic particles, as explained at the web site. I will have to read this more carefully, to fully understand it all. 
<BR>
<BR>"If the rotation in the electric dimension is involved only in the transverse effect, another possibility opens up. In view of the space-time symmetry around unity, a speed n can achieve the effect of inverting the space-time orientation of the rotation by its ability to act in the capacity of its reciprocal, namely, the speed 1/n. But this ability to act as its reciprocal is limited only to the transverse effect and cannot extend to the collinear effect, since the transverse effect is an inverse effect itself."
<BR>    
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 18:09:40 EDT
Subject: Re: New solar neutrino data
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Time change in relation to heat changes!

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/phenomenon.htm
"6.1 Specific Heat Relations
Quoting Larson: =E2=80=9C:.. the relation between temperature and energy dep=
ends on=20
the charaoteristics of the transmission process. Radiation originates=20
three-dimensionally in the time region, and rnakes contact one-dimensionally=
=20
in the outside region. It is thus four-dimensional, while temperature is onl=
y=20
one-dimensional. We thus find that the energy of radiation is proportional t=
o=20
the fourth power of the temperature.=20
 Erad =3D K * T4 . =E2=80=9D[11]     =20


We have seen earlier that the phenomenon of birotation of the electron pair=20
is identical to that of the birotation of photons (except for the absence of=
=20
the rotational base in the latter). Consequently, the time region energy=20
associated with the electron pairs is proportional to the fourth power of th=
e=20
temperature. Therefore, considering unit volume of the material, the=20
expression for the thermal energy in the superconducting state can be writte=
n=20
as=20
 Es=3DKs*T4   (1)=20
   =20


where Kg is a constant and suffix s denotes the supercondueting state."
   =20


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><P ALIGN=3DJUSTIFY><FONT  SIZE=3D4>Time c=
hange in relation to heat changes!
<BR>
<BR>http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/phenomenon.htm
<BR>"6.1 Specific Heat Relations</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAM=
ILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>Quoting Larson: =E2=80=9C:.. the relation between temperature and energy=
 depends on the charaoteristics of the transmission process. <I>Radiation</I=
> originates three-dimensionally in the time region, and rnakes contact one-=
dimensionally in the outside region. It is thus four-dimensional, while temp=
erature is only one-dimensional. We thus find that the energy of radiation i=
s proportional to the fourth power of the temperature.=20
<BR><P ALIGN=3DLEFT> Erad =3D K * T4 . =E2=80=9D[11]     =20
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=3DJUSTIFY>We have seen earlier that the phenomenon of birotatio=
n of the electron pair is identical to that of the birotation of photons (ex=
cept for the absence of the rotational base in the latter). Consequently, th=
e time region energy associated with the electron pairs is proportional to t=
he fourth power of the temperature. Therefore, considering unit volume of th=
e material, the expression for the thermal energy in the superconducting sta=
te can be written as=20
<BR><P ALIGN=3DLEFT> Es=3DKs*T4   (1)=20
<BR>   =20
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=3DJUSTIFY>where Kg is a constant and suffix s denotes the super=
condueting state."
<BR><P ALIGN=3DLEFT>   =20
<BR></P></P></P></P></P></P></FONT></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 19:03:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: One handed keyboard ''pod''
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	  Dear Vo,


        Many years ago there was a one-handed keyboard.
       
	It was sort of like a pod, maybe 1.80 times the volume of a tennis
ball, it had puch buttons sort of like a baby accordian.

	 Do you have any idea if they are made?

                        Thanks,


                                        JH


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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 19:31:58 EDT
Subject: How to make scalar waves change time and space!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, Wangus@yahoogroups.com,
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If every atom, subatomic particle, and photon, has a inner rotation (Low 
frequency time) and a outer rotation (high frequency space), and if the 
amount of the rotation of the inner and outer rotations of each sphere or 
subatomic particle, from 0 degrees to infinity along a spiral, changes the 
time frame and space frame of a particle, then one may use a series of 
alternating low frequency and high frequency waves, in a matrix much like a 
Boolean matrix in a computer [01(LF inner time),10Highfrequencyouterspace] 
for each particle, and wave mask to affect each particle in space time.   The 
distance between spirals or number of rotations of a inner or outer rotation 
of a subatomic particle, may define the amount of change in time or space, 
created by the alternating low frequency and high frequency rotational wave 
masks.  The zero point vacuum in a bulb, may create basic scalar time and 
space waves, not yet affected by the magnetic and electric waves.  These 
basic scalar waves may then be modified by a series of low frequency and high 
frequency waves in the form of a Boolean matrix, or mask which defines the 
properties of the time space to be created and applied to the scalar wave 
from a vacuum, and then carried along radio waves to a distant point to 
change the time and space properties of the distant point in time space. 

Respectfrully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>If every atom, subatomic particle, and photon, has a inner rotation (Low frequency time) and a outer rotation (high frequency space), and if the amount of the rotation of the inner and outer rotations of each sphere or subatomic particle, from 0 degrees to infinity along a spiral, changes the time frame and space frame of a particle, then one may use a series of alternating low frequency and high frequency waves, in a matrix much like a Boolean matrix in a computer [01(LF inner time),10Highfrequencyouterspace] for each particle, and wave mask to affect each particle in space time. &nbsp;&nbsp;The distance between spirals or number of rotations of a inner or outer rotation of a subatomic particle, may define the amount of change in time or space, created by the alternating low frequency and high frequency rotational wave masks. &nbsp;The zero point vacuum in a bulb, may create basic scalar time and space waves, not yet affected by the magnetic and electric waves. &nbsp;These basic scalar waves may then be modified by a series of low frequency and high frequency waves in the form of a Boolean matrix, or mask which defines the properties of the time space to be created and applied to the scalar wave from a vacuum, and then carried along radio waves to a distant point to change the time and space properties of the distant point in time space. 
<BR>
<BR>Respectfrully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Bill, can you tell me how I might contact R. Boerner.  I would like to
> send him my equally critical review of Park's book which can be found at
> http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.  

Just edit his website URL.  He looks to be a grad student at ASU:

 http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/

He also has a couple of pages about suppression of dissent:

  http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/science.html
  http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/skepticism.html
  http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/suppression.html

He mentioned that Amazon finally accepted his review after heavy editing.

I suspect a self-serving bias on the part of editors.  Just because a book
review is scathing, that does not convert it from "book review" into
"personal attack."  It's only when criticism is aimed at the editors' own
beliefs that they try to redefine the criticism.

In dealing with people on newsgroups, I notice a extremely common ploy: 
trying to hide personal errors and derail discussions by attempting to
redefine detailed criticism as REALLY being ad-hominem.  It's interesting
that it's the habitual criticizers ("skeptics") who pull this stuff.  In
other words, they spend much time in criticizing others, but when the same
happens to them, they howl that they're being treated unfairly.  My own
armchair psychoanalysis:  the safest place for a thin-skinned person is in
the role of a bully.  As an active critic, their victims will be too busy
defending themselves to shine a spotlight on the bully's flaws, and that's
just the position the bully strives for.  One solution: adopt the behavior
of a skeptic, but of a REAL skeptic who maintains high personal integrity
and has no personal agenda to defend, and who turns a harsh spotlight on
all the dishonest BS coming from "Skeptics" and "believers" alike.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John Schnurer wrote:

>         Many years ago there was a one-handed keyboard.

Try searching www with these keywords:

   +"one handed keyboard"

   +"one hand keyboard"


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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	  Dear Vo,
> 
> 
>         Many years ago there was a one-handed keyboard.
>        
> 	It was sort of like a pod, maybe 1.80 times the volume of a tennis
> ball, it had puch buttons sort of like a baby accordian.

Could be the WriteHander (sp?), saw it on a frontpage of a late seventees
issue of Interface Age Magazine: it was a truncated hemisphere, not sure
how the buttons were placed, but I *think* the small finger to index
finger were used for the lower 4 bits (chord), and the thumb pressed one
of eight buttons to actually send the character.  Could be wrong....

You needed to know ASCII by heart to use it, and it could only
generate 7 bits (this was loooong before ISO 8859-1 (a.k.a. Latin1).)

> 
> 	 Do you have any idea if they are made?
> 
>                         Thanks,
> 
> 
>                                         JH
> 


/Mathias Bage

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Has anyone studied the language in Bearden's 6362718 MEG patent? I found
sections 9-12 especially interesting. bv

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BVicknair bjservices.com wrote:

>Has anyone studied the language in Bearden's 6362718 MEG patent? I found
>sections 9-12 especially interesting. bv
>
>
Is that where he claims to have "closed the loop"?

Terry


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Jed Rothwell posted;

>
>
>I once saw a dramatization of the life of Alexander Graham Bell. 
>Toward the end he is an old man tinkering in his workshop. He is 
>interrupted by a telemarketer. (They had them, even back in 1920.) 
>Poetic justice!
>

Alexander would have loved an answering machine.
-- 

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Seepage from below?  Or, is some other process at work?

http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-dsspd2670369apr16.story

Terry

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Here is a new way to convert heat into electricity. I read about this in a 
source I am too embarrassed to mention by name (Popular Science, p. 40). See:

http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/2/2

http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2002/030602/Heat_engines_gain_quantum_afterburner_030602.html

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:50:38 -0400
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Subject: Waste heat refrigeration?
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Refrigerators and air conditioners using gas flames in place of a 
compressor have been in use since the 1930s. They are still sold for 
cabins, RVs and remote sites without electricity. Thermal refrigerators 
last for a long time because they have no moving parts. These are usually 
propane fired with ammonia as the working fluid, I think. Modern gas fired 
refrigerators can be purchased here:

http://www.rvmobile.com/

This site describes a 7.8 cubic foot cabin refrigerator that consumes 1600 
BTU/hr of gas. That is 0.47 kWh. A larger electric refrigerator, 16 cubic 
feet, uses 0.38 kWh of electricity on average. This requires 1.14 kWh of 
fossil fuel heat, so a propane refrigerator is marginally more 
energy-efficient. A refrigerator half the size of the electric model uses 
2.4 times less fuel. Larger refrigerators use less power per cubic foot.

Ah, here is a large gas refrigerator, "built by the Amish for the Amish, 
who usually have large families and demand high performance." See:

http://www.lpappliances.com/CrystalCold.html

The 18 cubic foot model consumes 2100 BTU per hour, or 0.53 kWh, about half 
the fossil fuel the electric model consumes. Those Amish are on to something.

A gas flame is high-grade heat. Is it possible to refrigerate or air 
conditioning with low-grade waste heat from cogenerators? Some interesting 
methods of air conditioning are described in the literature, such as metal 
hydride, magnetic cooling and desiccant cooling. (I do not know how 
magnetic cooling works.) See:

http://www.ott.doe.gov/coolcar/heatgen.html
http://www.nrel.gov/desiccantcool/tech.html

This should produce moderate cooling, but I do not know whether it can be 
used for refrigeration. In a CF powered world, I assume high-temperature, 
high power density CF would be used for thermal refrigeration. This would 
be more economical than compressor motors.

- Jed

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In reading about the MEG project at
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm,
a couple of things raised red flags to me.  The things that bothered me
were:
-- It does not produce over unity with resistive loads.
-- It only works with high voltages
-- Power output measured by load temperature is not OU

Here is my hypothesis on what is going on.  I think that the circuit is
just
a simple push-pull step-up inverter, probably operating around 90%
efficiency.  The magnetic device is just a center tapped step-up
transformer, and the permanent magnet probably has little effect on the
circuit.

The apparent OU only happens with a non-resistive load.  Two load
examples
are given.  JLN has a procedure for making a load device by burning out
a
resistor.  This probably changes it to be mostly capacitive load.  Jon
Flickinger gives some impressive OU results using a MOV as a load (see
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megnot01.htm).  He used a Panasonic
ZNR10K621U.
I could not find specs on this MOV one but did find the Panasonic
ERZA20PK501 at
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ez065_erz_p_dne.pdf.

This MOV has a capacitance of 600 pF.  When operated below its voltage
limit, it should look like a purely capacitive load.  When operated
above
the limit, it can take only a few cycles before burning out, then it is
still a capacitive load.

In either case, the load has a significant reactive component.  That
means
that the voltage and current are not in phase.  The more reactive, the
more
out of phase they will be. But notice that the waveforms show voltage
and
current exactly in phase.  These waveforms are not possible with a
capacitive load.  What gives?

The answer is most likely that the voltage probe has introduced a delay
relative to the probe used for the current measurement.  While the JLN
website has many details of the device, it says nothing about the probes

used.  No scope can measure 500 V/division without a high voltage probe
of
some sort.  It would require at least a 100:1 probe, or perhaps a HV
probe
with even higher attenuation.  But any probe like this has a high value
series resistor (range of 10 Mohm to 1 Gohm) feeding the input
capacitance
of the scope (around 5-10 pF).  This introduces an RC delay that may be
much
higher than the period of the waveform being measured.  Even being the
most
optimistic, 5pf x 10 Mohm = 50 microseconds. By adjusting the frequency
of
the driving circuit, the phase of the output voltage can be set to
anything
relative to the current measurement. (The phase depends on the remainder

when dividing the probe delay by the waveform period.)  This probe delay
is
not just theoretical.  I have a high voltage probe and just measured its

delay at 1 ms more than the 10x probe.  With the circuit running at 20
KHz,
the period is 50 us, and 90 degree phase shift takes just 12.5
microseconds
of delay.  Any HV probe should add at least that much delay.

So the MEG experiment may just be a high voltage inverter feeding a
reactive
load, with phase measurement error causing the computation of output
power
to be incorrect.  The more reactive the load, the more apparent excess
because as the real phase difference approaches 90 degrees, the real
output
power approaches zero, and the input power is reduced accordingly (Pin =

Pout/.9).  The computed output power assumes in-phase V and I, which is
not
really happening.

-- Bob Horst

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Bob Horst wrote:

>The more reactive the load, the more apparent excess
>because as the real phase difference approaches 90 degrees, the real
>output
>power approaches zero, and the input power is reduced accordingly (Pin =
>
>Pout/.9).  The computed output power assumes in-phase V and I, which is
>not
>really happening.
>
This is an interesting hypothesis; however, how do you explain an 
increasing COP vs. increasing control Voltage as shown in the patent? 
 TB explains it by increasing the magnetic flux diversion from the magnet.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 13:30:29 2002
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Bob:

Did you send that message to J. Naudin?

I do not know much about electricity, but I suspect that all reports of o/u 
output from electrical devices are mistakes similar to the one you 
described. Otherwise, someone would have made one of these gadgets self 
sustain.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Oil Wells Replenished!
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:47:19 -0700
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> Seepage from below?  Or, is some other process at work?
>
> http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-dsspd2670369apr16.story
>
> Terry

Recommended reading: "The Deep Hot Biosphere" by Thomas Gold. Gold builds a
very persuasive case that the actual source of petroleum worldwide is a very
active biosphere some ten kilometers down and that all the oil in all the
wells is seepage from this source. It is erroneous to call petroleum
"fossil" fuel, as the petroleum extracted far exceeds what could have been
produced by the traditional model of decay of surface vegetation. It is
bacteria that is the source, and a case can be made for these as being the
actual primeval source of terrestrial life.

I'm not going to debate this here. A bit of sniffing on Google will find
ample references, and Amazon can put the book on your doorstep. Newsday
didn't do much homework for Gold is easy to find, and his reputation
excellent, but is comfortably ignored for reasons which don't have to be
spelled out for Vortex readers.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 15:01:39 2002
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?
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--- Bob Horst <bhorst attbi.com> wrote:

> used.  No scope can measure 500 V/division without a high
> voltage probe

Bob...  I think you may be looking at the trees and missing the
whole painting of a forest.

There is no reason to believe current probe readings unless you
take them yourself.

I suspect that the 10K burned out resister is more like 100K
(based on some earlier looks that this device) The current
reading is probably taken using an unmatched probe, wrong gain.
(current probes can be a bitch. It is likely an order of
magnitude out.  Or the probe is being placed close to the
transformer core invalidating the measurement.

Cheers

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 15:07:53 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Quantum afterburner at TAMU
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:06:47 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:57:36 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>Here is a new way to convert heat into electricity. I read about this in a 
>source I am too embarrassed to mention by name (Popular Science, p. 40). See:
>
>http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/2/2
>
>http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2002/030602/Heat_engines_gain_quantum_afterburner_030602.html
>
>- Jed
IMO a better use of exhaust heat is to catalytically crack heavy fuel
molecules to form light molecules, thereby increasing the octane rating
of the fuel, permitting higher compression ratios and greater
efficiency.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 15:53:54 2002
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:45:05 -0700
From: Bob Horst <bhorst attbi.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Bob Horst wrote:
>
> >The more reactive the load, the more apparent excess
> >because as the real phase difference approaches 90 degrees, the real
> >output
> >power approaches zero, and the input power is reduced accordingly (Pin =
> >
> >Pout/.9).  The computed output power assumes in-phase V and I, which is
> >not
> >really happening.
> >
> This is an interesting hypothesis; however, how do you explain an
> increasing COP vs. increasing control Voltage as shown in the patent?
>  TB explains it by increasing the magnetic flux diversion from the magnet.
>
> Terry

Good point.  My hypothesis does not directly account for the increasing COP vs
control voltage, but does not preclude it either.  The patent does not really
have enough detail to analyze this because it does not describe the driver
circuit, load circuit, or  waveforms at different input voltage levels.

My guess would be that the same voltage that drives the input is used as the
drain voltage of the drivers connected to the gates of the FETs.  When the
voltage is increased, the FETs can be turned on  faster.  This would reduce
the glitches in the output current waveforms, making the currents look more
sinusoidal and increasing the apparent COP.

-- Bob

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:48:18 -0700
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In Bob Horst's discussion below, it would have been useful to investigate
the capabilities of the Tektronix THS720P oscilloscope before drawing
conclusions. This instrument is unusual and rather extraordinary. It was
designed for field technicians to make accurate voltage, current and power
measurements on wideband devices. It is battery operated. Naudin acquired it
some years ago when he was studying his replication of a Newman device,
which generates very wideband noise in the arcs. Most instruments are simply
unable to measure this.

The THS720P has three totally isolated inputs, Ch A, Ch B and a digital
multimeter. Ch A and B are synchronously and independently sampled at up to
500 megasamples/sec for an effective bandwidth of 100 MHz. With the 10X
probes, the bandwidth is 100 MHz and 500 V/div. A waveform sample is
captured and stored in internal memory. Instantaneous power is then
calculated for each sample and displayed, along with a mean value.

Naudin is operating the MEG at about 20 kHz, so all the electrical artifacts
seen in the oscillograms are well within the range of the oscilloscope and
the graphs can be taken as valid as presented.

The output coils are indicated as 5.7 henries and probably have substantial
distributed capacitance and can be expected to self-resonate in the high
audio range. Naudin notes that he has to adjust the drive frequency to
obtain a sine wave output for the desired effects to be seen.

The last illustration with a 9 W fluorescent lamp is a resistive load, and a
rather low impedance one at that; I do not understand how a high voltage can
be developed across it.

The core material used has extremely low hysteresis loss but also shows
abrupt saturation. The permanent magnet may well bias the flux into the flat
portion of the B-H curve, wherein the fields produce by the driving coils
can have a very  complex effect on what goes on. This device is much more
complicated that it looks, whether you believe Bearden's theories or not.
Harold Aspden, who has spent much of his life investigating magnetic
phenomena in its relation to aether energy, also points out that operation
in the upper part of a B-H curve such as seen in the MEG may be a gateway to
OU performance as described by Naudin.

The complexity of the non-linear phenomena at play here may make it
surprisingly difficult to scale the effect up without a massive investment
and study.

Mike Carrell

> In reading about the MEG project at
> http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm,
> a couple of things raised red flags to me.  The things that bothered me
> were:
> -- It does not produce over unity with resistive loads.
> -- It only works with high voltages
> -- Power output measured by load temperature is not OU
>
> Here is my hypothesis on what is going on.  I think that the circuit is
> just
> a simple push-pull step-up inverter, probably operating around 90%
> efficiency.  The magnetic device is just a center tapped step-up
> transformer, and the permanent magnet probably has little effect on the
> circuit.
>
> The apparent OU only happens with a non-resistive load.  Two load
> examples
> are given.  JLN has a procedure for making a load device by burning out
> a
> resistor.  This probably changes it to be mostly capacitive load.  Jon
> Flickinger gives some impressive OU results using a MOV as a load (see
> http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megnot01.htm).  He used a Panasonic
> ZNR10K621U.
> I could not find specs on this MOV one but did find the Panasonic
> ERZA20PK501 at
> http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ez065_erz_p_dne.pdf.
>
> This MOV has a capacitance of 600 pF.  When operated below its voltage
> limit, it should look like a purely capacitive load.  When operated
> above
> the limit, it can take only a few cycles before burning out, then it is
> still a capacitive load.
>
> In either case, the load has a significant reactive component.  That
> means
> that the voltage and current are not in phase.  The more reactive, the
> more
> out of phase they will be. But notice that the waveforms show voltage
> and
> current exactly in phase.  These waveforms are not possible with a
> capacitive load.  What gives?
>
> The answer is most likely that the voltage probe has introduced a delay
> relative to the probe used for the current measurement.  While the JLN
> website has many details of the device, it says nothing about the probes
>
> used.  No scope can measure 500 V/division without a high voltage probe
> of
> some sort.  It would require at least a 100:1 probe, or perhaps a HV
> probe
> with even higher attenuation.  But any probe like this has a high value
> series resistor (range of 10 Mohm to 1 Gohm) feeding the input
> capacitance
> of the scope (around 5-10 pF).  This introduces an RC delay that may be
> much
> higher than the period of the waveform being measured.  Even being the
> most
> optimistic, 5pf x 10 Mohm = 50 microseconds. By adjusting the frequency
> of
> the driving circuit, the phase of the output voltage can be set to
> anything
> relative to the current measurement. (The phase depends on the remainder
>
> when dividing the probe delay by the waveform period.)  This probe delay
> is
> not just theoretical.  I have a high voltage probe and just measured its
>
> delay at 1 ms more than the 10x probe.  With the circuit running at 20
> KHz,
> the period is 50 us, and 90 degree phase shift takes just 12.5
> microseconds
> of delay.  Any HV probe should add at least that much delay.
>
> So the MEG experiment may just be a high voltage inverter feeding a
> reactive
> load, with phase measurement error causing the computation of output
> power
> to be incorrect.  The more reactive the load, the more apparent excess
> because as the real phase difference approaches 90 degrees, the real
> output
> power approaches zero, and the input power is reduced accordingly (Pin =
>
> Pout/.9).  The computed output power assumes in-phase V and I, which is
> not
> really happening.
>
> -- Bob Horst
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 17:43:22 2002
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Bob:
>
> Did you send that message to J. Naudin?
>
> I do not know much about electricity, but I suspect that all reports 
> of o/u output from electrical devices are mistakes similar to the one 
> you described. Otherwise, someone would have made one of these gadgets 
> self sustain. 

The patent is for a self-sustaining device.  Also, comments on TB's web 
site imply that the model *is* self-sustaining; but, he says that 
confirming such a claim publically could affect their fund raising 
efforts ($29M).

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 18:39:07 2002
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> The last illustration with a 9 W fluorescent lamp is a resistive load, and a
> rather low impedance one at that; I do not understand how a high voltage can
> be developed across it.

Well, there's always the possibility that the device is operating on
pure potential.  What happens with a load that causes a 180 degree phase
shift between current and Voltage?  TB says that the free energy comes
from the time domain which is the -j portion of total power!  In this
light, it almost seems trivial.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 18:49:28 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?
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--- Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net> wrote:
> In Bob Horst's discussion below, it would have been useful to
> investigate
> the capabilities of the Tektronix THS720P oscilloscope before
> drawing
> conclusions. This instrument is unusual and rather
> extraordinary. It was
> designed for field technicians to make accurate voltage,
> current and power
> measurements on wideband devices. It is battery operated.
> Naudin acquired it
> some years ago when he was studying his replication of a
> Newman device,
> which generates very wideband noise in the arcs. Most
> instruments are simply
> unable to measure this.
> 

That would of course depend on the sample rate as well as the
band width.  You are of course far from out classing this
instrument. The problem we have it simply that it takes more
then a fine instrument to make an accurate measurement.

I have said this many times in the past and I will say it one
more time.  Measuring power is tricky. There are many ways to
foul it up.  For example using the wrong current probe or using
the current probe incorrectly or failing to compensate the
voltage probe or using the wrong smoothing filters or...  or...
or...  

It is sort of like golf...

You can have the best clubs modern technology has to offer and
still be a hack.

The game is not the stick 

But rather it is the idiot holding the stick.


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 18:50:13 2002
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Bob Horst wrote:

> My guess would be that the same voltage that drives the input is used as the
> drain voltage of the drivers connected to the gates of the FETs.  When the
> voltage is increased, the FETs can be turned on  faster.  This would reduce
> the glitches in the output current waveforms, making the currents look more
> sinusoidal and increasing the apparent COP.

True, but the field effect is exploited for high switching rates.  Once
threshold voltage is achieved, current flow is not that proportional to
gate voltage, hence the name "gate".

I agree with Mike, this is a very complex device.

Terry

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?


> --- Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net> wrote:
> > In Bob Horst's discussion below, it would have been useful to
> > investigate
> > the capabilities of the Tektronix THS720P oscilloscope before
> > drawing
> > conclusions. This instrument is unusual and rather
> > extraordinary. It was
> > designed for field technicians to make accurate voltage,
> > current and power
> > measurements on wideband devices. It is battery operated.
> > Naudin acquired it
> > some years ago when he was studying his replication of a
> > Newman device,
> > which generates very wideband noise in the arcs. Most
> > instruments are simply
> > unable to measure this.
> >
>
> That would of course depend on the sample rate as well as the
> band width.  You are of course far from out classing this
> instrument. The problem we have it simply that it takes more
> then a fine instrument to make an accurate measurement.
>
> I have said this many times in the past and I will say it one
> more time.  Measuring power is tricky. There are many ways to
> foul it up.  For example using the wrong current probe or using
> the current probe incorrectly or failing to compensate the
> voltage probe or using the wrong smoothing filters or...  or...
> or...

I think Charles is missing a very crucial point about the instrument. Using
a non-inductive resistor to sense current, and measuring the voltage across
that resistor with a totally floating voltage probe, which is provided by
the instrument, and measuring the voltage across the load by the second
channel, the instrument calculates the true instantaneous VI product for
each sample. You don't get any better than that. It takes into account all
aspects of phase differences, rise times, etc. etc. and etc. The true RMS is
calculated from each sample.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 20:41:21 2002
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:36:42 -0500
From: Jon Flickinger <jonfli informatics.net>
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FWIW, I'm presently using a TEK TDS3034 in MEG research and I've found that the
Math channel operates with an error of >20% as compared to manual math
calculations with individual  waveform results. The scope is acceptably accurate
on individual waveform measurements, but something is amiss when using the Math
channel's capabilities. Tektronix is currently trying to figure out what the
problem might be with my particular situation, but so far, no answer.

The THS720P was the forerunner to the TDS3000 series and it's possible that it's
internal Math may also have accuracy problems. If one was to study the scope
waveforms as published in the original paper by TB on the MEG and do a little
math on the waveform data, nothing will make any sense when comparing to the
internal math result! Judging from the scope's screen appearance, TB's group was
also using a THS720P.

Jon Flickinger

Mike Carrell wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:48 PM
> Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?
>
> > --- Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net> wrote:
> > > In Bob Horst's discussion below, it would have been useful to
> > > investigate
> > > the capabilities of the Tektronix THS720P oscilloscope before
> > > drawing
> > > conclusions. This instrument is unusual and rather
> > > extraordinary. It was
> > > designed for field technicians to make accurate voltage,
> > > current and power
> > > measurements on wideband devices. It is battery operated.
> > > Naudin acquired it
> > > some years ago when he was studying his replication of a
> > > Newman device,
> > > which generates very wideband noise in the arcs. Most
> > > instruments are simply
> > > unable to measure this.
> > >
> >
> > That would of course depend on the sample rate as well as the
> > band width.  You are of course far from out classing this
> > instrument. The problem we have it simply that it takes more
> > then a fine instrument to make an accurate measurement.
> >
> > I have said this many times in the past and I will say it one
> > more time.  Measuring power is tricky. There are many ways to
> > foul it up.  For example using the wrong current probe or using
> > the current probe incorrectly or failing to compensate the
> > voltage probe or using the wrong smoothing filters or...  or...
> > or...
>
> I think Charles is missing a very crucial point about the instrument. Using
> a non-inductive resistor to sense current, and measuring the voltage across
> that resistor with a totally floating voltage probe, which is provided by
> the instrument, and measuring the voltage across the load by the second
> channel, the instrument calculates the true instantaneous VI product for
> each sample. You don't get any better than that. It takes into account all
> aspects of phase differences, rise times, etc. etc. and etc. The true RMS is
> calculated from each sample.
>
> Mike Carrell

--
Obstacles are the things that a person sees when he takes
his eyes off the goal.      - E. Joseph Cossman-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 21:30:50 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: MEG measurement errors?
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 00:40:22 -0400
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Hi Jon.

I've seen the same thing with my TDS 360, the math function doesn't
produce accurate results VS manually calculating the power from the
source current and voltage signals. I've got a pretty good idea
why this is so, if Tek is interested send them my way.

That said, making accurate measurements at the high impedences found
in these types of circuits is a challenge. If the energy is there,
than a self sustaining circuit should be forthcoming. I suspect that's
what the funding is about...

As I remember Jon, you tried the configuration shown in the patent.
Did it seem promising?

K.








-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Flickinger [mailto:jonfli informatics.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 11:37 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: MEG measurement errors?


FWIW, I'm presently using a TEK TDS3034 in MEG research and I've found that
the
Math channel operates with an error of >20% as compared to manual math
calculations with individual  waveform results. The scope is acceptably
accurate
on individual waveform measurements, but something is amiss when using the
Math
channel's capabilities. Tektronix is currently trying to figure out what the
problem might be with my particular situation, but so far, no answer.

The THS720P was the forerunner to the TDS3000 series and it's possible that
it's
internal Math may also have accuracy problems. If one was to study the scope
waveforms as published in the original paper by TB on the MEG and do a
little
math on the waveform data, nothing will make any sense when comparing to the
internal math result! Judging from the scope's screen appearance, TB's group
was
also using a THS720P.

Jon Flickinger


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 30 22:30:36 2002
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From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Waste heat refrigeration?
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 00:27:51 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:50:38 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Refrigerators and air conditioners using gas flames in place of a 
>compressor have been in use since the 1930s. They are still sold for 
>cabins, RVs and remote sites without electricity. Thermal refrigerators 
>last for a long time because they have no moving parts. These are usually 
>propane fired with ammonia as the working fluid, I think. 

Although there are some home air conditioners that use ammonia as the
working fluid (fairly strong ammonia, not the stuff you buy in the
super market -- therefore rather dangerous), there are other
absorption systems.

I recall reading about a unit made in (I think) Texas, and here's
another one:
http://www.yazakienergy.com/waterfired.htm

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF