From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 00:20:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l118Kbjk029199; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 00:20:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l118KZrS029144; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 00:20:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 00:20:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 03:18:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy and Money22 In-reply-to: <45C0F9B5.8040201@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> >> Energy and money are two sides of the same coin. >> >> When energy is used money is spent. >> When energy is stored, money is saved. >> >> By energy I mean only the precise _technical definition_ >> of energy. >> >> Energy is no more or less real than money. >> Energy is no more or less conserved than money. >> >> Harry > > > One day the cost of energy will be no more than the maintenance of a > "free energy" machine? > > > Paul Lowrance > I think so. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 03:27:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11BR7WK007178; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:27:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11BR3eK007083; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:27:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C18FE2.9070108@usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:59:46 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Future Energy Source? Barium, Pt.II References: <45C10DFA.9080607@pacbell.net> <45C145A3.40603@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45C145A3.40603@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > Could be a megawatt-year for all I know. A thousand ton tree, however, > even if one just prunes off a tenth of its mass per year (whatever > will regrow) ... say on a tree plantation, might yield a fair amount > of barium and radium, after the cellulose is turned into biodiesel. Yah! the Brown Nuclear Battery utilizes radium. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 03:53:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11Br4Zc017364; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:53:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11BqwZX017322; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:52:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:52:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:52:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l11BqruB017290 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Power is energy (not current) over time. The well known i*v formula for (instantaneous) electrical power is not open to interpretation, and is quite easy to derive. Voltage (aka potential) being defined as electric potential energy per unit charge(*), with electric PE being defined as the mechanical work that electric forces can potentially effect, when a charge q goes through a voltage variation of v volts the mechanical work effected on it by electric forces is q*v joules (can be negative). If this charge q results from a current i flowing for time t, we have q=i*t, so the work (energy) is q*v=i*t*v joules, so power is i*t*v/t = i*v watts. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_work To Harry: I don't know of a special name for dP/dt, what would be your use for the second derivative of energy wrt time? Michel (*) To Paul: typing this makes me realize that you cannot consistently deny the concept of potential energy and accept that of voltage (potential) :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "leaking pen" To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > depends what you mean by electrical power. by my understanding, > wattage, the big way of measuring power, IS a change of electrical > current over time. i could be mistaken, my understanding of units of > electricity has always been iffy. > > On 1/31/07, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> If electrical power is P. >> >> Do electrical engineers have a special name for dP/dt? >> >> Harry >> >> > > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:22:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11GMjUv029564; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:22:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11GMbbc029522; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:22:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:22:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=n6uRurirCG21/r4Cc+denU4CzJ3i1InK63pl4MfRCJB0tYdHxRjmjtFMxrtEmMTCjM/EegdyU8ckKGw8WYoihjylJ/QdnWw1nsuYnOUgvkd8PXSe8AcgKAbYNBZMOH3101YwzomAToAR9QgsHPZCR6Nmlxv/r1YcG2HMoysN3Cs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:22:35 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Neodymium News Status: O X-Status: This article is a year old but is possibly of great importance: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/22/business/rare.php It's not enough that Chevron owns Cobasys who keeps a death grip on large format NiMH batteries; but, now they own the only known rare earth placer mine in the US. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:37:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11GbN3w003230; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:37:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11GbMaU003214; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:37:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:37:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Q9lnGgaKB0gekvqjpc8U1tB9a3CDkMqy4d0qdbxbVq3j8n8wS894mbzOIyHiVAmp54kAOy5xP+gm+TZwn2O6A5/Rpf/Ji5XNpgRyhk5B0j3ul/ksxt119CrkR2SFWr1d1NCXxfl9nMGi0BxQNDUJrfihhTlToIkGUsE8Lfi61A0= Message-ID: <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:36:39 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <_Ej2sB.A.Ky.BdhwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > A wave packet coalescing into a point-like particle when it hits the screen, yes that's about as close to common sense understandability as it can get. Makes one realize the wave aspect of particles is a hard fact. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment Any QM expert can correct any possible errors, but here's how I've understood the double slit. Both slits are open. Before the single photon even emits it must decide which hole it is going to go through. To accomplish this task it is understood that the photon "plays out" the entire process before hand, like some theatrical play. This is called the wave function. So instantly the wave function traverses the path, travels through both slits, and hits the detection screen, and from there decides what path the photon will take. Supposedly the wave function traverses at infinite velocity as if there were no time. Note that the wave function causes interference patterns on the detection screen due to the double slits. So now the photon knows exactly where it will strike. There are physicists who interpret this as meaning the photon never traverses space, but simply transports to its new guaranteed location. Now, what if we tried to detect which slit the photon traversed through. In this case the wave function would consider the new detection device the new destination. Therefore, the photon would strike the detection device (collapse of the wave function) and from that location the photon would generate a new wave function, which is why the interference patterns vanish when trying to detect which slit the photon travels through. What is amazing is how the wave function predicts the future. For example, lets say we emit the single photon while the detection device is off and then quickly turn on the detection device before the photon is expected to arrive. It seems somehow the photon is able to predict all of this! This predictable nature is displayed in the "Delayed choice" experiment --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%27s_delayed_choice_experiment I would like to know if or how M-theory predicts the double slit experiment. For those who are not aware of M-theory (Wow, yikes, where have you been!) --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory No offense to anyone, but I just cannot imagine not hearing about M-theory. It's by far the biggest thing in physics now. In 1995 Edward Witten created M-theory from the five flavors of superstring theories. At one time there were five flavors of superstring theories, which drove physicists crazy as to why. They questioned if God couldn't make up his mind, and thought perhaps God simply made five versions, lol. Then came the genius, Ed Witten, who solved the big puzzle to discover mathematically all five flavors were really the same thing. If M-theory is proven then it will replace QM, which is why so many top physicists are diligently working on M-theory. A great deal of money is being spent to prove M-theory by means of experimentation. M-theory removes all the chaos found in QM and reveals a calm and ***predictable*** universe. IMHO the true nature of reality resembles something far closer to M-theory than QM, which has been my gripe about QM from the start. Today we have high speed photography and computers, which could allow us to predict things such as a drop of water bouncing all over the place on a hot skillet. What seemed impossible a 1000 years ago is trivial today. In the same sense, what may seem impossible to QM will be predictable and trivial. Lets hope M-theory is closer to the truth. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> OrionWorks wrote: >>>> From: Michel Jullian >>>> >>>> Indeed the double slit experiment with only one single photon or >>>> electron traversing the experiment at a time is an awesome proof >>>> of the shortcomings of our common sense (mine in any case)! Can >>>> anyone _really_ make sense of why they form interference >>>> patterns? I mean, the QM equations will yield those patterns all >>>> right, but does QM itself make common sense? >>>> >>>> Michel >>> The only logical explanation my brain can make out of the paradoxical >> double >>> slit experiment is the notion that what we perceive, and more importantly >>> MEASURE, as "particles" are perhaps not really ISOLATED pinpoints >>> of –matter- after all. >>> >>> The only rational explanation I can comprehend is that what we define as >>> ISOLATED pin-points of "matter" are most likely waves of EM energy >> that have >>> coalesced or configured themselves into patterns that our measuring >> devices, >>> which reside in the macro world, interpret as "physical" particles. Of >>> course, WE are the ones doing all the interpreting. It's as if there >> is an >>> almost desperate-like human tendency to fit as much bizzare QM >> behavior into >>> the more framiliar rules of the macro world, cuz that's the only >> reality our >>> brains can make any sense out of. And indeed, these highly >> concentrated EM >>> patterns may occasionally seem to take on the characteristics of "matter" >>> which we human beings find so comforting. But to define these QM patterns >>> (i.e. photons) as ISOLATED pin points of "matter" does not >> necessarily mean >>> it's the most accurate interpretation of what is really going on >> under the >>> hood. >>> >>> Oh dear, caught in the act of pontificating, once again. >>> >>> >From a strictly philosophical non-scientific POV it all seems to >> come down >>> to MAYA, the illusion of reality that we all seem to be so entranced >> with. >>> The sand box, after all, with all of its inherent granularity can >>> occasionally be a fun place in which to build temporary sand castles in. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Steven Vincent Johnson >>> www.OrionWorks.com >> >> >> What's fascinating about double slit is its wave and particle duality. >> The bar patterns demonstrate the electrons wave behavior, like a >> wave-train or pulse. On the other hand there's just one collision on the >> screen per electron. If the electron were merely a wave then it would >> crash against the screen like an oceans wave. That's probably why it's >> referred to as the collapse of the wave function in QM. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:49:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11Gn648008387; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:49:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11Gn41D008364; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:49:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:49:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XKxYxheURj3dz0wL0qJcRw9A2J5xfAOm+hKAfrfV3La0vzLF9eWBQuTtdrwfMu4GhQ/jV4Oj1DO7RTFvdjgPQWIQCsSyF55SNrbR+77vu0V/8qMCTPISb+5rXDHm5XcSmPLt7/IRK76lDzEMCvbcptoiS8jl1Tyd0vkW/sjroBY= Message-ID: <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:48:20 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9Tex6B.A.nCC._nhwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > (*) To Paul: typing this makes me realize that you cannot consistently deny the concept of potential energy and accept that of voltage (potential) :-) Michel, Michel, Michel ... we went over this. As previously stated, I do not consider the electric field as potential energy because we can detect E-fields, know where it exists, how much energy it contains. Again, my theory works out nicely regarding E-fields. Two *oppositely* charged separated particles attract and accelerate. While the two particles gain KE there is a simultaneous decrease in net electric fields. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 09:44:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11Hi6w2008040; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:44:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11Hi3HZ008002; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:44:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:44:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C226D9.4040601@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:43:53 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-t8-.A.-8B.jbiwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: > > A wave packet coalescing into a point-like particle when it hits the > screen, yes that's about as close to common sense understandability as > it can get. Makes one realize the wave aspect of particles is a hard fact. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment > > > Any QM expert can correct any possible errors, but here's how I've > understood the double slit. Both slits are open. Before the single > photon even emits it must decide which hole it is going to go through. > To accomplish this task it is understood that the photon "plays out" the > entire process before hand, like some theatrical play. This is called > the wave function. So instantly the wave function traverses the path, > travels through both slits, and hits the detection screen, and from > there decides what path the photon will take. Supposedly the wave > function traverses at infinite velocity as if there were no time. Wheeler's delayed choice experiment shows pretty clearly that it doesn't work that way -- you can change the target after the particle is in flight, even after it's "gone through" the slits, and change whether you get an interference pattern or not: at the very last femtosecond, replace the screen with a pair of telescopes that let you tell where the flash came from; do this for every particle, and the interference pattern vanishes. This experiment has been done. You can replace the screen with the telescopes just before the particle hits the screen and it has the same effect as replacing it before the particle takes off. If the particle "made up its mind" before it took off, and hence physically traversed one pre-determined slit or the other and arrived at a pre-determined point in space where it "expects" the screen to be, the experiment would not work as it does. In any case, if it were to prescan the path as you suggest, information would need to flow from the target to the particle "instantly", which violates the speed limit of C and hence causality in a relativistic universe. I.e., some observers would see the information traveling backwards in time. As far as I can tell particles don't "go through" the slits at all -- the probability wave goes through the slits, arrives at the target, and voila, the particle appears. But any attempt at imagining the particle actually physically traveling through the slits runs into problems. > Note > that the wave function causes interference patterns on the detection > screen due to the double slits. So now the photon knows exactly where > it will strike. There are physicists who interpret this as meaning the > photon never traverses space, but simply transports to its new > guaranteed location. > > Now, what if we tried to detect which slit the photon traversed > through. In this case the wave function would consider the new > detection device the new destination. Therefore, the photon would strike > the detection device (collapse of the wave function) and from that > location the photon would generate a new wave function, which is why the > interference patterns vanish when trying to detect which slit the photon > travels through. > > What is amazing is how the wave function predicts the future. For > example, lets say we emit the single photon while the detection device > is off and then quickly turn on the detection device before the photon > is expected to arrive. It seems somehow the photon is able to predict > all of this! This predictable nature is displayed in the "Delayed > choice" experiment --> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%27s_delayed_choice_experiment > > > I would like to know if or how M-theory predicts the double slit > experiment. For those who are not aware of M-theory (Wow, yikes, where > have you been!) --> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory > > > No offense to anyone, but I just cannot imagine not hearing about > M-theory. It's by far the biggest thing in physics now. In 1995 Edward > Witten created M-theory from the five flavors of superstring theories. > At one time there were five flavors of superstring theories, which drove > physicists crazy as to why. They questioned if God couldn't make up his > mind, and thought perhaps God simply made five versions, lol. Then came > the genius, Ed Witten, who solved the big puzzle to discover > mathematically all five flavors were really the same thing. If M-theory > is proven then it will replace QM, which is why so many top physicists > are diligently working on M-theory. A great deal of money is being > spent to prove M-theory by means of experimentation. > > M-theory removes all the chaos found in QM and reveals a calm and > ***predictable*** universe. IMHO the true nature of reality resembles > something far closer to M-theory than QM, which has been my gripe about > QM from the start. Today we have high speed photography and computers, > which could allow us to predict things such as a drop of water bouncing > all over the place on a hot skillet. What seemed impossible a 1000 > years ago is trivial today. In the same sense, what may seem impossible > to QM will be predictable and trivial. Lets hope M-theory is closer to > the truth. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:58 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > > > >> OrionWorks wrote: > >>>> From: Michel Jullian > >>>> > >>>> Indeed the double slit experiment with only one single photon or > >>>> electron traversing the experiment at a time is an awesome proof > >>>> of the shortcomings of our common sense (mine in any case)! Can > >>>> anyone _really_ make sense of why they form interference > >>>> patterns? I mean, the QM equations will yield those patterns all > >>>> right, but does QM itself make common sense? > >>>> > >>>> Michel > >>> The only logical explanation my brain can make out of the paradoxical > >> double > >>> slit experiment is the notion that what we perceive, and more > importantly > >>> MEASURE, as "particles" are perhaps not really ISOLATED pinpoints > >>> of –matter- after all. > >>> > >>> The only rational explanation I can comprehend is that what we > define as > >>> ISOLATED pin-points of "matter" are most likely waves of EM energy > >> that have > >>> coalesced or configured themselves into patterns that our measuring > >> devices, > >>> which reside in the macro world, interpret as "physical" particles. Of > >>> course, WE are the ones doing all the interpreting. It's as if there > >> is an > >>> almost desperate-like human tendency to fit as much bizzare QM > >> behavior into > >>> the more framiliar rules of the macro world, cuz that's the only > >> reality our > >>> brains can make any sense out of. And indeed, these highly > >> concentrated EM > >>> patterns may occasionally seem to take on the characteristics of > "matter" > >>> which we human beings find so comforting. But to define these QM > patterns > >>> (i.e. photons) as ISOLATED pin points of "matter" does not > >> necessarily mean > >>> it's the most accurate interpretation of what is really going on > >> under the > >>> hood. > >>> > >>> Oh dear, caught in the act of pontificating, once again. > >>> > >>> >From a strictly philosophical non-scientific POV it all seems to > >> come down > >>> to MAYA, the illusion of reality that we all seem to be so entranced > >> with. > >>> The sand box, after all, with all of its inherent granularity can > >>> occasionally be a fun place in which to build temporary sand > castles in. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Steven Vincent Johnson > >>> www.OrionWorks.com > >> > >> > >> What's fascinating about double slit is its wave and particle duality. > >> The bar patterns demonstrate the electrons wave behavior, like a > >> wave-train or pulse. On the other hand there's just one collision on > the > >> screen per electron. If the electron were merely a wave then it would > >> crash against the screen like an oceans wave. That's probably why it's > >> referred to as the collapse of the wave function in QM. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 09:52:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11HqFhY014819; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:52:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11HqDTq014779; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:52:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:52:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=oyljTlVwFgPy0A3dXEWrKQY7aRxA/QBwww8vtqcrd4e+zCBWtvUjCHyI+1Ex/al8ZFL1CVGXb9YF29F4ZB6+NVUvp1h92P87hif45CRjDABLpMIGdLauuC4Q6Hi5U8efw1XmwHmUF15Fx/xI1qZlu/6n03wrKXIaJCp3gc9DT80= Message-ID: <357653710702010952u265a339cnebb2a79430bd291a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:52:02 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <45C0DDFD.8070205@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2958_11977182.1170352322128" References: <69416.71702.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <45BFC142.30400@gmail.com> <45C0B81A.20807@gmail.com> <45C0DDFD.8070205@pacbell.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e0c0db9756572f7c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2958_11977182.1170352322128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I see retarded and advanced gravity fields as energy violations in standard physics. David ------=_Part_2958_11977182.1170352322128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I see retarded and advanced gravity fields as energy violations in standard physics.

David


------=_Part_2958_11977182.1170352322128-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 11:05:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11J5Yld020378; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:05:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11J5Sxe020346; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:05:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:05:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hOnOX4J58yJy4uNy1xDsvql5gDpizEuzRHIKLflV+b1D5A1P34YPYK4LxNXgakwxpR50KaDVVUFL1/DvVJiRu/ITgPaxq8adCL57Mk3kEHRr+FnpFJLR9yU52Z2vBoGZ6vgLfm5TIlGgPput7vQUlVnw+vNvDPLur8DjaCH4xPA= Message-ID: <45C239CC.1050904@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:04:44 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> <45C226D9.4040601@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45C226D9.4040601@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > energymover@gmail.com wrote: >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> > A wave packet coalescing into a point-like particle when it hits the screen, yes that's about as close to common sense understandability as it can get. Makes one realize the wave aspect of particles is a hard fact. >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment >> >> >> Any QM expert can correct any possible errors, but here's how I've understood the double slit. Both slits are open. Before the single photon even emits it must decide which hole it is going to go through. To accomplish this task it is understood that the photon "plays out" the entire process before hand, like some theatrical play. This is called the wave function. So instantly the wave function traverses the path, travels through both slits, and hits the detection screen, and from there decides what path the photon will take. Supposedly the wave function traverses at infinite velocity as if there were no time. > > Wheeler's delayed choice experiment shows pretty clearly that it doesn't work that way -- you can change the target after the particle is in flight, even after it's "gone through" the slits To understand my interpretation you need to think in 4-dimensions. What you said clarifies exactly what I said. Again, it appears the idea of the photon traveling through space is invalid. Lets step through the experiment --> We'll refer to the appearing mirror as D. 1. D is removed. 2a. At t=0 the photon is emitted. 2b. At t=0 there's a wave function for the photon. The wave function spreads out and extends into the *future*. You can think of the future as a dimension. 3a. At t=1 D is activated. 3b. At t=1 there's a wave function for D (for simplicity we'll refer to it as one function). Note, the photons wave function (from step 2b, above) crosses this wave function. 3c. Photons wave functions collapses when it senses D's wave function. 4. At t=2 the photon strikes D. In a nutshell, the wave function spreads across space, without the time aspect, like tentacles extending out in time. The mirror, D, is also made of matter that has wave functions. Do you understand it now? So the wave functions from both the photon and the mirror decide, by so-called laws of probability, what will take place. What occurs is merely a result of that decision / probability. > , and change whether you get an interference pattern or not: at the very last femtosecond, replace the screen with a pair of telescopes that let you tell where the flash came from; do this for every particle, and the interference pattern vanishes. This experiment has been done. And it's in agreement with what I said. > You can replace the screen with the telescopes just before the particle hits the screen and it has the same effect as replacing it before the particle takes off. If the particle "made up its mind" before it took off, and hence physically traversed one pre-determined slit or the other and arrived at a pre-determined point in space where it "expects" the screen to be, the experiment would not work as it does. No, you're still thinking in terms of 3-dimensions. > In any case, if it were to prescan the path as you suggest, information would need to flow from the target to the particle "instantly", which violates the speed limit of C and hence causality in a relativistic universe. I.e., some observers would see the information traveling backwards in time. The interpretation doesn't work that way. The wave functions (plural) make the decision, like rolling dice. The actual particle does not arrive at its destination faster than c. It's the wave function that instantly spreads, but the wave function is not 3-dimensional physical object. [snip] Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 11:54:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11JsPAp016895; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:54:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11JsMYZ016862; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:54:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:52:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >That which yields isn't always weak. The way of Tao? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 12:16:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11KG7rf032311; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:16:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11KG6SP032290; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:16:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:16:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jMW7bDy/+2emtdR6lRsHV9wkmhyautXdtUNBM2oU1KOdbvcFXtYW23Cd04rO9T3Uz3b6l8iTy47gxW9YZMy/Z5KSitAhRcUBl6Rln7Ueg5Ba+fBIhNrHX1L56usrkdyt/e+YGwqrHmiQ9aLu3mSe/ba1AQxAK/DXGHoQwP1wHUU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:16:04 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: no, the way of phedre. heh. On 2/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > >That which yields isn't always weak. > > The way of Tao? > > Harry > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 12:54:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11Ksgki031326; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:54:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11KsfWc031305; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:54:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:54:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200702012054.l11KsZFO066114@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:54:34 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_5ad650dbebc84d8ac8745911b2545ae4" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <3LqNYC.A.8oH.QOlwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Maxwell's Demon revisited: "1867 nanomachine now reality" Status: O X-Status: --=_5ad650dbebc84d8ac8745911b2545ae4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vorts, FYI: Maxwell's Demon revisited on the molecular level: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/02/01/nanomachine.reut/index.html http://tinyurl.com/yopcsm Enjoy! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_5ad650dbebc84d8ac8745911b2545ae4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vorts,

FYI:

Maxwell's Demon revisited on the molecular level:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/02/01/nanomachine.reut/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/yopcsm

Enjoy!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_5ad650dbebc84d8ac8745911b2545ae4-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 13:02:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11L2VMC026526; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:02:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11Kx91P022999; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:59:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:59:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:57:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-reply-to: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4utTZD.A.NnF.bSlwFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > To Harry: I don't know of a special name for dP/dt, what would be your use for > the second derivative of energy wrt time? I think the so-called natural forces should be reassessed in terms of power rather than force. The only natural power that is correctly assessed by force is inertia. Knowledge of inertia comes about through the exercise of force. However the knowledge of gravity, electricty and magnetism comes about through the observation of motion. Of course you can use them as forces, but that does not mean they ARE forces. So how does one quantify a natural power? Simply by an acceleration. Nothing is causing the acceleration except for the presence of another body. The other body isn't acting-at-a-distance or warping space-time. To resist gravity all you need is an opposing force, but a I said before, this does not mean gravity IS a force. It only means that it responds to a force. Moving upwards at a steady pace requires more than a force. It requires power. The speed of motion upwards determines how much power is used per second. This is dp/dt. This figure is not the total energy required to reach the summit. It is the energy required to keep ascending at a given speed. No one can be certain the climber will reach the summit, not even the climber. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 13:55:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11Ltjbd020469; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:55:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11LtiDG020461; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:55:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=r6HQWxB4GVI4cKN4RQK2HQHxNjGUYAn9JXybtO88So720po8igvIcnYI/NJ6hxp2WfUC3BhE6eiwjIWk7clSL6Nv3EQwS2UEQnnFvW9GLWFUswtXahyA9+z37LjhZJ8BXEtdazGbtDPwaivThDI/KFbLOMMwv8NUiBQaIUWSETM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:55:43 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3834_1995743.1170366943093" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_3834_1995743.1170366943093 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this Free Energy nut. And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation. By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above and more easily doable. Obviously like any technology it could be misused too. So what would you do? Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?) What might happen if you did? What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible? What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order eliminated? What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you try to present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the technology in the right way? (if so how?) The world sure looks like it needs technology to improve health and clean energy and transportation or else we may be screwed, but are people really in the right place to make wise use of such advanced technology? Also what would you do to ensure the technology is launched successfully despite the obvious resistance from the energy and health sectors? (assume it is possible for Joe Blogs to replicate this tech) Basically this is the dream scenario, Easy DIY Star Trek (and in some ways beyond) level technology, but we don't resemble the society in Star Trek! Will we still want it once we get it? (Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it?) Also some people might be inclined to keep the technology in the AG/FE community would this seem to be a real option? (Maybe even build a space craft and say adios to earth?) ------=_Part_3834_1995743.1170366943093 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this Free Energy nut.
And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation.

By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above and more easily doable.
Obviously like any technology it could be misused too.

So what would you do?

Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?)

What might happen if you did?

What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible?

What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order eliminated?

What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you try to present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the technology in the right way? (if so how?)

The world sure looks like it needs technology to improve health and clean energy and transportation or else we may be screwed, but are people really in the right place to make wise use of such advanced technology?

Also what would you do to ensure the technology is launched successfully despite the obvious resistance from the energy and health sectors? (assume it is possible for Joe Blogs to replicate this tech)

Basically this is the dream scenario, Easy DIY Star Trek (and in some ways beyond) level technology, but we don't resemble the society in Star Trek!

Will we still want it once we get it? (Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it?)

Also some people might be inclined to keep the technology in the AG/FE community would this seem to be a real option? (Maybe even build a space craft and say adios to earth?)
------=_Part_3834_1995743.1170366943093-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 14:27:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11MRbdG032102; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:27:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11MRZrC032078; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:27:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:27:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LPpfDFZcEy5rFW2Pz5kNPEjubfEwwAH1G8HUYf9coldx0OmecktRBmq8Qyx1QN2+0tHHmL3ZCETr9hhj110271O25MlDgipsMgikFdTP/rD1d8O/rFT3U4lO/cupLj2G9pmVdnEriyWVQ59HDLaejTcvwQy8LUYKTNHfd1CCCTE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:27:34 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/1/07, John Berry wrote: > Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this > Free Energy nut. There are still economics associated with FE. Let's suppose I can generate FE of 2 kW continuous. Can I take my home off grid? The average home has a peak load demand of 10 kW and an average load demand of 2 kW. At $0.10 per kWhr, you spend $1,752 per year on electricity. If you want a ROI of 100% in 5 years, you are willing to spend $8,760 for a FE device. Can you find a 10 kW sinusoid inverter for $8,760? Not to mention the FE device. Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. Payback is now 34 years. I am now working on the payback for a 10 kW FE device that outputs 120 VAC @ 60 Hz. The electronics are more complicated. The capital cost is extensive. Although I can now sell excess energy back to the grid, I only get the wholesale rate when I sell (about half the retail). Also, many utilities are requiring lockout circuits that will not reverse feed the xfmr if the grid is taken down for maintenance since you can kill a lineman who thinks his grid is off line. It's damned complicated. But quite fun! :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 14:43:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11MhG7h005261; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:43:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11MhEJ3005242; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:43:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:43:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=CYh59JMbTNIcwtVrMF/986bdXKWzJJ1ekfQ0Rfnnn38OOWd24MhtB1svN3OpnlunfXg7bqiUI2WzZU6A1clWJIuVgEisq5hru6FhfYANQV8p744vzvc+iFmeVHMbCMAl7CmpDsDE/a6ZbZAKQ1zZQysGNjp/LwpyGFpcDy/LknM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:43:12 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4118_29909584.1170369792808" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4118_29909584.1170369792808 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, obviously it depends on the subtleties of such a device. If Joe Blogs can put one together for $100 and have it generate all the power he needs at the right voltage & freq that's a very different equation. I am interested in the issue of selling energy back to the grid, please elaborate on what a lockout device is, does it stop energy being put into the grid, or does it simply close off if it detect a blackout/brownout? (and if every house on the street was pumping energy back into the grid, how would you even know a power cut had occurred?) On 2/2/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 2/1/07, John Berry wrote: > > Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this > > Free Energy nut. > > There are still economics associated with FE. Let's suppose I can > generate FE of 2 kW continuous. Can I take my home off grid? > > The average home has a peak load demand of 10 kW and an average load > demand of 2 kW. At $0.10 per kWhr, you spend $1,752 per year on > electricity. If you want a ROI of 100% in 5 years, you are willing to > spend $8,760 for a FE device. > > Can you find a 10 kW sinusoid inverter for $8,760? Not to mention the > FE device. > > Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a > home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 > Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. > Payback is now 34 years. > > I am now working on the payback for a 10 kW FE device that outputs 120 > VAC @ 60 Hz. The electronics are more complicated. The capital cost > is extensive. Although I can now sell excess energy back to the grid, > I only get the wholesale rate when I sell (about half the retail). > Also, many utilities are requiring lockout circuits that will not > reverse feed the xfmr if the grid is taken down for maintenance since > you can kill a lineman who thinks his grid is off line. > > It's damned complicated. But quite fun! :-) > > Terry > > ------=_Part_4118_29909584.1170369792808 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, obviously it depends on the subtleties of such a device.
If Joe Blogs can put one together for $100 and have it generate all the power he needs at the right voltage & freq that's a very different equation.

I am interested in the issue of selling energy back to the grid, please elaborate on what a lockout device is, does it stop energy being put into the grid, or does it simply close off if it detect a blackout/brownout? (and if every house on the street was pumping energy back into the grid, how would you even know a power cut had occurred?)



On 2/2/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/1/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this
> Free Energy nut.

There are still economics associated with FE.  Let's suppose I can
generate FE of 2 kW continuous.  Can I take my home off grid?

The average home has a peak load demand of 10 kW and an average load
demand of 2 kW.  At $0.10 per kWhr, you spend $1,752 per year on
electricity.  If you want a ROI of 100% in 5 years, you are willing to
spend $8,760 for a FE device.

Can you find a 10 kW sinusoid inverter for $8,760?  Not to mention the
FE device.

Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a
home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60
Hz.  My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k.
Payback is now 34 years.

I am now working on the payback for a 10 kW FE device that outputs 120
VAC @ 60 Hz.  The electronics are more complicated.  The capital cost
is extensive.  Although I can now sell excess energy back to the grid,
I only get the wholesale rate when I sell (about half the retail).
Also, many utilities are requiring lockout circuits that will not
reverse feed the xfmr if the grid is taken down for maintenance since
you can kill a lineman who thinks his grid is off line.

It's damned complicated.  But quite fun!  :-)

Terry


------=_Part_4118_29909584.1170369792808-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 14:44:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11MiF7O005980; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:44:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11MiDVX005948; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:44:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:44:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nHdgpXTt0S5s9ce+ro93zBc3M0WMQVDw/G8eWNXP3pu2oMJ3XteH+Q0+iU2+zvsP; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:44:07 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74620.31125010" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609bc9ac28afd4df1a141124f9d25cf0d1ba7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74620.31125010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John! I have so many times on so many groups, voiced my view on what you question. 1) Free Energy will never exist. Why? Because the governments will not freely give up the income from energy consumption. So what will they do? Okay lets assume you disconnect from the grid (everyone does, because they have the AJAX generator). Well the feds (et.,al. will come up with a historical usage formula and charge you a tax for the fact you are self sufficient. Lets say you obtain an FE generator of 25kw and pull the plug. The feds will charge you a yearly tax of $3200 for the right to use your FE device. (Note the amount I state is from some 5 years ago and what was talked about in the back rooms of scared politicians). Now what would happen to the utilities and all the people that work for them? What about all the six figure oil field people that would no longer have a job? Well like with unemployment, FEMA, et., al. the tax payer will have to pick up the difference. Simply put as I state in my Lectures, you will not succeed in screwing the gov., they just will not let it happen. Forget the Free Energy Mantra, call it 'Black Energy', stay connected and pay a low amount under the pretense you are a conservation zealot. Use your 'Black Market' device and hope you don't get caught, which you will once the momentum of installation begins to affect utility revenue. After all my work and all my dreams, I must admit, there will be no free lunch, at least not for the foundation and citizen of the US. We are screwed!. If you have or can obtain a device, use it and keep your mouth shut. If you talk about it or distributed it, you limit its 'Free' life. -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:56 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this Free Energy nut. And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation. By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above and more easily doable. Obviously like any technology it could be misused too. So what would you do? Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?) What might happen if you did? What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible? What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order eliminated? What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you try to present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the technology in the right way? (if so how?) The world sure looks like it needs technology to improve health and clean energy and transportation or else we may be screwed, but are people really in the right place to make wise use of such advanced technology? Also what would you do to ensure the technology is launched successfully despite the obvious resistance from the energy and health sectors? (assume it is possible for Joe Blogs to replicate this tech) Basically this is the dream scenario, Easy DIY Star Trek (and in some ways beyond) level technology, but we don't resemble the society in Star Trek! Will we still want it once we get it? (Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it?) Also some people might be inclined to keep the technology in the AG/FE community would this seem to be a real option? (Maybe even build a space craft and say adios to earth?) ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74620.31125010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John!
 
I have=20 so many times on so many groups, voiced my view on what you=20 question.
 
1)=20 Free Energy will never exist.
 
Why?=20 Because the governments will not freely give up the income from energy=20 consumption. So what will they do? Okay lets assume you disconnect from = the grid=20 (everyone does, because they have the AJAX generator). Well the feds = (et.,al.=20 will come up with a historical usage formula and charge you a tax for = the fact=20 you are self sufficient. Lets say you obtain an FE generator of 25kw and = pull=20 the plug. The feds will charge you a yearly tax of $3200 for the right = to use=20 your FE device. (Note the amount I state is from some 5 years ago and = what was=20 talked about in the back rooms of scared = politicians).
 
Now=20 what would happen to the utilities and all the people that work for = them? What=20 about all the six figure oil field people that would no longer have a = job? Well=20 like with unemployment, FEMA, et., al. the tax payer will have to pick = up the=20 difference.
 
Simply=20 put as I state in my Lectures, you will not succeed in screwing the = gov., they=20 just will not let it happen.
 
Forget=20 the Free Energy Mantra, call it 'Black Energy', stay connected and pay a = low=20 amount under the pretense you are a conservation zealot. Use your 'Black = Market'=20 device and hope you don't get caught, which you will once the momentum = of=20 installation begins to affect utility revenue.
 
After=20 all my work and all my dreams, I must admit, there will be no free = lunch, at=20 least not for the foundation and citizen of the US.
 
We are=20 screwed!. If you have or can obtain a device, use it and keep your mouth = shut.=20 If you talk about it or distributed it, you limit its 'Free'=20 life.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry=20 [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, = 2007 3:56=20 PM
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Now = what? An=20 important theoretical question.

Ok, let's say that = one of=20 us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this Free Energy nut.
And = Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation.

By discovering a new = branch of=20 physics which makes the things above and more easily doable. =
Obviously=20 like any technology it could be misused too.

So what would you=20 do?

Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? = only the=20 technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?) =

What might=20 happen if you did?

What would you do to ensure everything went = as well=20 as possible?

What of the energy and health sectors that will be = in=20 short order eliminated?

What if the world just isn't ready for = this=20 technology? Or would you try to present a new possibility that might = inspire=20 people to accept the technology in the right way? (if so how?) =

The=20 world sure looks like it needs technology to improve health and clean = energy=20 and transportation or else we may be screwed, but are people really in = the=20 right place to make wise use of such advanced technology?

Also = what=20 would you do to ensure the technology is launched successfully despite = the=20 obvious resistance from the energy and health sectors? (assume it is = possible=20 for Joe Blogs to replicate this tech)

Basically this is the = dream=20 scenario, Easy DIY Star Trek (and in some ways beyond) level = technology, but=20 we don't resemble the society in Star Trek!

Will we still want = it once=20 we get it? (Be careful what you ask for, you might just get = it?)

Also=20 some people might be inclined to keep the technology in the AG/FE = community=20 would this seem to be a real option? (Maybe even build a space craft = and say=20 adios to earth?)
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74620.31125010-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 14:50:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11MoJKL025741; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:50:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11MoGSE025705; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:50:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:50:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:52:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now think I understand how it works, and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run backwards (I've tried it). You get to send the power company a bill for US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect feature the power company requires to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions. Even without the grid connection, an induction generator can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too). Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. Payback is now 34 years. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:07:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11N7L23024657; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:07:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11N7KDZ024642; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:07:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:07:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=pGKzB0U/WxBMOQaYf9+x0MjsKtbvsW210fq8CvGSTxpNtlbWgOxD5cDIUFeLoDYW; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:07:10 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609384c7da2ab6499723c0e227a4196ac673ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know where you all get your power or why you think there will be a grid to sell power to, if we all get FE devices? In Texas where I live, with all the charges and fees I pay ~ 38 cents/kwh. Now in the summer when using AC I need a device with a capacity for a surge of some 38kw, why, well when AC starts it can demand from 3 to 4 times its running power during start period. A device that would supply the constant load of 4kw+3kw for two AC units would not be of any real value here. My average consumption is 18kw/24hrs and that is a minimum of a refer, freezer and lights and TV. My hot water is gas. SO unless you all live by oil lamp or candle, what do you plan on selling back? Lets see 50hp X 746 = 3.73E4 or 37,300 watts nice if it could run a genset at 100%/ 24/7? Nice, but show me its real and you could avoid the politicians. > -----Original Message----- > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:52 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > > > > Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. > > I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now > think I understand how it works, > and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above > synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run > backwards (I've tried it). You get to send the power company a bill for > US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect > feature the power company requires > to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions. Even > without the > grid connection, an induction generator > can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too). > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM > > Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a > home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 > Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. > Payback is now 34 years. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:24:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NO5AK029816; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:24:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11NO3ZD029793; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:24:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:24:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cughqyovhBIyenjEc35MUTmp3MPCHlr5pMWuYZErFrn2czq12hKvMnXLPCVLotDIme2I8G4EKr5g/TbDkv0IzQjguvIcY1Xbdw0P2UCtRuZK1ELuzKkbGkPAe0/OMexURQHJzY1fTPChK0zij/GLxT69YJ57Ff0x9JTszW7MEUs= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:24:00 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4214_4184865.1170372240848" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4214_4184865.1170372240848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I just realized how complex a cut off device is, a fuse, I mean they might want something more complex than that but if there is a blackout or brownout the power being supplied by the grid is ziltch or has dropped which means only your device is powering all those homes which will mean increased current draw, so a fuse will do, at least until there are so many homes putting power in that a blackout is no longer detectable, but then you may ask who needs to fix the grid if the lights are all still on. On 2/2/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > I don't know where you all get your power or why you think there will be a > grid to sell power to, if we all get FE devices? > > In Texas where I live, with all the charges and fees I pay ~ 38 cents/kwh. > Now in the summer when using AC I need a device with a capacity for a > surge > of some 38kw, why, well when AC starts it can demand from 3 to 4 times its > running power during start period. A device that would supply the constant > load of 4kw+3kw for two AC units would not be of any real value here. My > average consumption is 18kw/24hrs and that is a minimum of a refer, > freezer > and lights and TV. My hot water is gas. > > SO unless you all live by oil lamp or candle, what do you plan on selling > back? Lets see 50hp X 746 = 3.73E4 or 37,300 watts nice if it could run a > genset at 100%/ 24/7? Nice, but show me its real and you could avoid the > politicians. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:52 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > > > > > > > > Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. > > > > I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I > now > > think I understand how it works, > > and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above > > synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run > > backwards (I've tried it). You get to send the power company a bill for > > US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect > > feature the power company requires > > to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions. Even > > without the > > grid connection, an induction generator > > can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too). > > > > Hoyt Stearns > > Scottsdale, Arizona US > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM > > > > Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a > > home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 > > Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. > > Payback is now 34 years. > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_4214_4184865.1170372240848 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I just realized how complex a cut off device is, a fuse, I mean they might  want something more complex than that but if there is a blackout or brownout the power being supplied by the grid is ziltch or has dropped which means only your device is powering all those homes which will mean increased current draw, so a fuse will do, at least until there are so many homes putting power in that a blackout is no longer detectable, but then you may ask who needs to fix the grid if the lights are all still on.

On 2/2/07, Stiffler Scientific <stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
I don't know where you all get your power or why you think there will be a
grid to sell power to, if we all get FE devices?

In Texas where I live, with all the charges and fees I pay ~ 38 cents/kwh.
Now in the summer when using AC I need a device with a capacity for a surge
of some 38kw, why, well when AC starts it can demand from 3 to 4 times its
running power during start period. A device that would supply the constant
load of 4kw+3kw for two AC units would not be of any real value here. My
average consumption is 18kw/24hrs and that is a minimum of a refer, freezer
and lights and TV. My hot water is gas.

SO unless you all live by oil lamp or candle, what do you plan on selling
back? Lets see 50hp X 746 = 3.73E4 or 37,300 watts nice if it could run a
genset at 100%/ 24/7? Nice, but show me its real and you could avoid the
politicians.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto: hoyt-stearns@cox.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:52 PM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question.
>
>
>
> Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid.
>
> I think the cost would be much less.  Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now
> think I understand how it works,
> and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above
> synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run
> backwards (I've tried it).  You get to send the power company a bill for
> US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect
> feature the power company requires
> to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions.   Even
> without the
> grid connection, an induction generator
> can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too).
>
> Hoyt Stearns
> Scottsdale, Arizona US
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Blanton [mailto: hohlraum@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM
>
> Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a
> home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60
> Hz.  My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k.
>  Payback is now 34 years.
>
>
>


------=_Part_4214_4184865.1170372240848-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:31:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NVbN2019196; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:31:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11NVaLv019185; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:31:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:31:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=J8xr+HmPVc6m8SH3w7mQbqU19qpmNT8eqO+VbVi/9tvB8yJts35Ord/A3cvls1HtK6GIG2I1JHibLRV6c+qGSTJwRQ1lCKC1fqqQsDqnmTztp2Ui7GKTxQHbyxeCLz2/6iVNCWOMwp1bH7MROS20aQLGwJ87UgO46fwK5BSQ05w=; X-YMail-OSG: ucA9EzwVM1kCOlY6yoswhEqjILgjPcpJ6hgyrsxOSqG752h403mRFMv6M616GiuPMK1MH8Ry0Eo4KaLMoGtAqcNQwF2aeJJrEbj0Fmh4ZSAX0yT4.hMLY2iN26K1h4r906ryaXfkQIaLrkg- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:31:35 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-203769687-1170372695=:35223" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <380258.35223.qm@web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-203769687-1170372695=:35223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." wrote: Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now think I understand how it works, and it's simple)..... For God's sake, man, tell us the details! --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-203769687-1170372695=:35223 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

"Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns@cox.net> wrote:

Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid.

I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now think I understand how it works, and it's simple).....

For God's sake, man, tell us the details!

Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --0-203769687-1170372695=:35223-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:33:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NWsaI001143; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:32:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11NWrGt001132; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:32:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:32:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dMER+jLe5wy67SPcbzrhAAbwZq5f1Aow6T/s2D6nZtxfW17bRV9cknPdXXL00TuWDx0bzMVQRqTtI2U2llzHYue+Lxkx3/UctAfZ0DDFU3dEUpNSpjy+sehzy0Z14Jaxa0zk+7EVSjcBLMuC+Q/P/qRcqc9n/tgnbgBNRbrDTU8= Message-ID: <45C27879.7030201@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:32:09 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this > Free Energy nut. > And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation. > > By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above and more > easily doable. > Obviously like any technology it could be misused too. > > So what would you do? > > Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the > technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?) > > What might happen if you did? > > What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible? > > What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order > eliminated? > > What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you try to > present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the technology > in the right way? (if so how?) [snip] That's why I am working on my research, which only requires old classical physics. No dangerous advanced technology required. It merely moves ambient energy to an appliance. The appliance in turn returns the energy to the environment. Ambient energy is endless. Need more energy? Just blow more air across the heat sync fins. Here's an idea just how much is available. A single average size car gasoline engine can maintain thermal equilibrium while generating hundreds of kilowatts of energy if enough air is circulated through the radiator. Stiffler Scientific wrote: > John! > > I have so many times on so many groups, voiced my view on what you question. > > 1) Free Energy will never exist. Hogwash! You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with something wonderful. You're looking at an uprising in people against controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people will be unwelcome. Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:44:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NiWUu025095; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:44:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11NiV9e025077; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:44:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:42:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think this also resolves Stiffler's concern about government losing tons of tax revenue. If you remain connected, that $60 you get back from the power company can be taxed by the government. Harry Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. > > I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now > think I understand how it works, > and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above > synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run > backwards (I've tried it). You get to send the power company a bill for > US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect > feature the power company requires > to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions. Even without the > grid connection, an induction generator > can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too). > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM > > Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a > home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 > Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. > Payback is now 34 years. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:45:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NjhLq015052; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:45:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11Njh9v015041; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:45:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:45:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=CNySnLDemRIp9l1FNFE/eCKvnk1+kdwF6mHD1JG8ryFPLdBkFal0O55d+fPJHOwM; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "StifflerScientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:45:38 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45C27879.7030201@gmail.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609b7b0f5211379ed1ad37a77858aae44722601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Hogwash! You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the >>long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with >>something wonderful. You're looking at an uprising in people against >>controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's >>coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people >>will be unwelcome. Not in my life time and not in yours if ever. But if I go first which I may well do, you can always say I was wrong. Unless you know some deep dark secret about a visit from the 'Little Green Men', I think you may be living in wonderland. If you can say with all the problems in the world and all the different beliefs that we will all come together, then I want what you are smokin :-) No disrespect ment, but what is the basis of you idea that sometning is close after all these thousands of years?? -----Original Message----- From: energymover@gmail.com [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:32 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. John Berry wrote: > Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this > Free Energy nut. > And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation. > > By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above and more > easily doable. > Obviously like any technology it could be misused too. > > So what would you do? > > Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the > technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?) > > What might happen if you did? > > What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible? > > What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order > eliminated? > > What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you try to > present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the technology > in the right way? (if so how?) [snip] That's why I am working on my research, which only requires old classical physics. No dangerous advanced technology required. It merely moves ambient energy to an appliance. The appliance in turn returns the energy to the environment. Ambient energy is endless. Need more energy? Just blow more air across the heat sync fins. Here's an idea just how much is available. A single average size car gasoline engine can maintain thermal equilibrium while generating hundreds of kilowatts of energy if enough air is circulated through the radiator. Stiffler Scientific wrote: > John! > > I have so many times on so many groups, voiced my view on what you question. > > 1) Free Energy will never exist. Hogwash! You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with something wonderful. You're looking at an uprising in people against controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people will be unwelcome. Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:59:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11Nx4e7032334; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11Nx2KW032316; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:57:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FE won't eliminate the energy grid. But it will change how we use the energy grid. Harry Stiffler Scientific wrote: > I don't know where you all get your power or why you think there will be a > grid to sell power to, if we all get FE devices? > > In Texas where I live, with all the charges and fees I pay ~ 38 cents/kwh. > Now in the summer when using AC I need a device with a capacity for a surge > of some 38kw, why, well when AC starts it can demand from 3 to 4 times its > running power during start period. A device that would supply the constant > load of 4kw+3kw for two AC units would not be of any real value here. My > average consumption is 18kw/24hrs and that is a minimum of a refer, freezer > and lights and TV. My hot water is gas. > > SO unless you all live by oil lamp or candle, what do you plan on selling > back? Lets see 50hp X 746 = 3.73E4 or 37,300 watts nice if it could run a > genset at 100%/ 24/7? Nice, but show me its real and you could avoid the > politicians. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] >> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:52 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. >> >> >> >> Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. >> >> I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now >> think I understand how it works, >> and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above >> synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run >> backwards (I've tried it). You get to send the power company a bill for >> US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect >> feature the power company requires >> to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions. Even >> without the >> grid connection, an induction generator >> can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too). >> >> Hoyt Stearns >> Scottsdale, Arizona US >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM >> >> Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a >> home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 >> Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. >> Payback is now 34 years. >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:59:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NxVhr032680; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11NxTbS032660; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=q/YkucyrbAjtgYZmV1jRfJQDfC+nwfnWi7nZQaMxfvHcQtrOA8REPr9bX6eQ7oSu; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "StifflerScientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:59:29 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26095e575c7a7adb27b085888ebe46ffab42666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry! Where do you live anyway, and do you have more than a 100W light? :-) Here in Humble TX, during the summer I pay on average $320 per month for AC when I keep the temp at 77' with new 13 SEER AC units and solar screens, roof ridge vents, electric attic fans. So I guess the feds will be happy with taxing me on $60 a months instead of $320 month for energy? Good try.... Why do so many people think there is meaning behind 'Free', not for generations if ever and it will be 'Not Free' but Socialism. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:42 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. I think this also resolves Stiffler's concern about government losing tons of tax revenue. If you remain connected, that $60 you get back from the power company can be taxed by the government. Harry Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. > > I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now > think I understand how it works, > and it's simple), and drive a cheap surplus 50 HP induction motor above > synchronous speed (induction generator). Your power meter will run > backwards (I've tried it). You get to send the power company a bill for > US$60.00/day :-) No electronics required unless you want the disconnect > feature the power company requires > to prevent back feeding in case of line down conditions. Even without the > grid connection, an induction generator > can be made to work with some capacitors (tried that too). > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:28 PM > > Recently I was asked what a demonstation unit would cost to take a > home off grid with a 2kW FE device that does not output 120 VAC @ 60 > Hz. My initial estimates, including a proprietary FE device was $60k. > Payback is now 34 years. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:00:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l11NxtGW000534; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l11NxrXS000509; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:59:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:59:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l11NxlZn000306 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in fact at least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: field energy, or potential energy, or work done by the forces. All in all the third way: Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way round as is commonly thought. How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > Michel Jullian wrote: > > (*) To Paul: typing this makes me realize that you cannot > consistently deny the concept of potential energy and accept that of > voltage (potential) :-) > > > > Michel, Michel, Michel ... we went over this. As previously stated, I > do not consider the electric field as potential energy because we can > detect E-fields, know where it exists, how much energy it contains. > Again, my theory works out nicely regarding E-fields. Two *oppositely* > charged separated particles attract and accelerate. While the two > particles gain KE there is a simultaneous decrease in net electric > fields. :-) > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:11:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120BA7I028767; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:11:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120B9vu028734; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:11:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:11:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DwJHKgOP5oFWSqGPL57uZewMB7Znv6gyzigABWWiUupEJ5ZZVKe8v2hganNaek4HyFwwrAIqC12B5H1KuU9Nm3FxA2/GhvDPEdNYt4M7ZJtIq4NeAX5SABFCwJurS7WEmlbyuWaiT6Ec4jNln4FU2yOD0wNeRBk6vXksyWQKvgA= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:11:08 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4262_18931284.1170375068057" References: <45C27879.7030201@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4262_18931284.1170375068057 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Either is possible, it is possible to help empower people and create a Utopia. It is also possible to let the Governments and Corporations and other money and power hungry entities keep us under their thumb. Both is possible, so which one will you push for? It all has to do with how empowered people feel, perceptions controls which possibility will occur. On 2/2/07, StifflerScientific wrote: > > >>Hogwash! You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the > >>long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with > >>something wonderful. You're looking at an uprising in people against > >>controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's > >>coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people > >>will be unwelcome. > > Not in my life time and not in yours if ever. But if I go first which I > may > well do, you can always say I was wrong. Unless you know some deep dark > secret about a visit from the 'Little Green Men', I think you may be > living > in wonderland. If you can say with all the problems in the world and all > the > different beliefs that we will all come together, then I want what you are > smokin :-) No disrespect ment, but what is the basis of you idea that > sometning is close after all these thousands of years?? > > -----Original Message----- > From: energymover@gmail.com [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:32 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > > > John Berry wrote: > > Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this > > Free Energy nut. > > And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation. > > > > By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above > and more > > easily doable. > > Obviously like any technology it could be misused too. > > > > So what would you do? > > > > Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the > > technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?) > > > > What might happen if you did? > > > > What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible? > > > > What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order > > eliminated? > > > > What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you > try to > > present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the > technology > > in the right way? (if so how?) > [snip] > > > That's why I am working on my research, which only requires old > classical physics. No dangerous advanced technology required. It > merely moves ambient energy to an appliance. The appliance in turn > returns the energy to the environment. Ambient energy is endless. Need > more energy? Just blow more air across the heat sync fins. Here's an > idea just how much is available. A single average size car gasoline > engine can maintain thermal equilibrium while generating hundreds of > kilowatts of energy if enough air is circulated through the radiator. > > > > > > Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > John! > > > > I have so many times on so many groups, voiced my view on what you > question. > > > > 1) Free Energy will never exist. > > > Hogwash! You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the > long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with > something wonderful. You're looking at an uprising in people against > controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's > coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people > will be unwelcome. > > > > Paul Lowrance > > ------=_Part_4262_18931284.1170375068057 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Either is possible, it is possible to help empower people and create a Utopia.
It is also possible to let the Governments and Corporations and other money and power hungry entities keep us under their thumb.

Both is possible, so which one will you push for?

It all has to do with how empowered people feel, perceptions controls which possibility will occur.

On 2/2/07, StifflerScientific < stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>Hogwash!  You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the
>>long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with
>>something wonderful.  You're looking at an uprising in people against
>>controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's
>>coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people
>>will be unwelcome.

Not in my life time and not in yours if ever. But if I go first which I may
well do, you can always say I was wrong. Unless you know some deep dark
secret about a visit from the 'Little Green Men', I think you may be living
in wonderland. If you can say with all the problems in the world and all the
different beliefs that we will all come together, then I want what you are
smokin :-) No disrespect ment, but what is the basis of you idea that
sometning is close after all these thousands of years??

-----Original Message-----
From: energymover@gmail.com [mailto:energymover@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:32 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question.


John Berry wrote:
> Ok, let's say that one of us (I haven't BTW) finds out how to crack this
> Free Energy nut.
> And Antigravity, and Healing/Rejuvenation.
>
> By discovering a new branch of physics which makes the things above
and more
> easily doable.
> Obviously like any technology it could be misused too.
>
> So what would you do?
>
> Would you release it to the world? (all of it? some of it? only the
> technology but not explain how they work even if you knew?)
>
> What might happen if you did?
>
> What would you do to ensure everything went as well as possible?
>
> What of the energy and health sectors that will be in short order
> eliminated?
>
> What if the world just isn't ready for this technology? Or would you
try to
> present a new possibility that might inspire people to accept the
technology
> in the right way? (if so how?)
[snip]


That's why I am working on my research, which only requires old
classical physics.  No dangerous advanced technology required.  It
merely moves ambient energy to an appliance. The appliance in turn
returns the energy to the environment.  Ambient energy is endless.  Need
more energy?  Just blow more air across the heat sync fins.  Here's an
idea just how much is available. A single average size car gasoline
engine can maintain thermal equilibrium while generating hundreds of
kilowatts of energy if enough air is circulated through the radiator.





Stiffler Scientific wrote:
> John!
>
> I have so many times on so many groups, voiced my view on what you
question.
>
> 1) Free Energy will never exist.


Hogwash!  You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the
long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with
something wonderful.  You're looking at an uprising in people against
controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's
coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people
will be unwelcome.



Paul Lowrance


------=_Part_4262_18931284.1170375068057-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:14:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120EB5q004155; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:14:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120E9RQ004119; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:14:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:14:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GtqgcMizNbEHSQVE1OdouEu56LLq6Y8/Nb1w9lZfNgng4akSICjFhFe+SMNgzX39bbqr1BS02b2KwE+oKcy6Bdp7GEBLSxAX0Jiofh1IVdp29mquuBgUyQjE1h4jE5WjgzXAX0HJOKd+o1PiR9vgykZIAYS62ziOO83zKRIY8Vc= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:14:06 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > FE won't eliminate the energy grid. > But it will change how we use the energy grid. PVs are already doing it. That is what lead to the safety cutout device to prevent reverse feeding the grid. The problem with the Magnetic Motors that I know about is that they don't throttle back well. They want to see constant loading. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:21:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120L9vJ006979; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:21:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120L8s5006964; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:21:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c74660$037c9710$80d4163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan><45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> <45C226D9.4040601@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:20:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > In any case, if it were to prescan the path as you suggest, information > would need to flow from the target to the particle "instantly", which > violates the speed limit of C and hence causality in a relativistic > universe. I.e., some observers would see the information traveling > backwards in time. It is not necessary that some observers see the information moving "back in time." It can be forward in time for all frames of reference, but it requires a sort of rearranging of things as far as the definition of simultaneity goes. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:29:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120SoBl014438; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:28:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120Snoj014415; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:28:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gho1ZJCFoA9VrHmqSaVbY8GTqFIhFxd81DBuQjo2NaFZV0QzTSjj5rVKKHoEymJW; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:28:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26093c5c9e10fdf440aae073a260c07aad19350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is my last comment on this thread as I for sure live in a different world than the rest of you. PV's Oh yes if you want a 35 year recover, unless you will settle for 10-20% energy offset which can be wiped out in 2-3 years by increased utility cost. SO what is the bottom line, a longer payoff for energy than the home. My home of 3600sqft needs a BIG $104K PV array for no better than a 64% power offset averaged over the year. So take $104K plus interest for 35 years and I guess I'll buy from the grid. > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:14 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > > > On 2/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > FE won't eliminate the energy grid. > > But it will change how we use the energy grid. > > PVs are already doing it. That is what lead to the safety cutout > device to prevent reverse feeding the grid. > > The problem with the Magnetic Motors that I know about is that they > don't throttle back well. They want to see constant loading. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:30:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120TxwG010569; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:30:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120Tw6v010552; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:29:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c74661$3cf37a30$80d4163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:29:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <2SYhZD.A.zkC.GYowFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > No offense to anyone, but I just cannot imagine not hearing about > M-theory. It's by far the biggest thing in physics now. Sort of like Scientology is a "big thing." > If M-theory is proven then it will replace QM, which is why so many top > physicists are diligently working on M-theory. A great deal of money is > being spent to prove M-theory by means of experimentation. Mega tax dollars being spent on superstring theory and the like is perhaps the largest 21st century violation of "separation of church and state" that exists. No one seems to know if the thing can be proven or disproven at all, its a big argument. This is not science, it is is religion. No one can cough up any money to try and find out if LENR/CANR is really a real thing, but we can use tax dollars to finance theoreticians sitting around all day long composing the divine theory of everything. > M-theory removes all the chaos found in QM and reveals a calm and > ***predictable*** universe. I love theories that predict the predictable...they are excellent playthings for we experimenters to blast holes in for sport. The problem seems to be, however, that the composers of said hypotheses have an almost unlimited supply of mathematical duct tape to cover the holes. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:32:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120U7tH010669; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:32:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120T7N4010349; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:29:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:29:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AJNHoeBa5sG2kYxjkFtM4QJfTRZxC5ra0ddCsU7NHKgWLjVq1Zooaf2/wuvVl3SkcI+HuTAztr7ho9gkUyQ2uzx/hIwVEVUlQi6R6iRHlp55FqA4PuQorkBOK5Bd54pKrTbFoYq3xp+0UvE1WcVc710lCE4ovPzfpXq09aNh/Rw= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:29:07 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4294_15292027.1170376147380" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4294_15292027.1170376147380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Still no one has really answered the whole question, which is basically what would happen to this world where it currently is if it was suddenly given technology which is at a level seen in Star Trek? Would it be likely to play out well or poorly? And what could be done to ensure it's more good than not? I guess that in truth it could go many ways and all that can be speculated on is some of the different possibilities. But at least by being forewarned some might be avoidable or minimized. Jed, you strike me as the perfect person to have a crack at this.. On 2/2/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 2/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > FE won't eliminate the energy grid. > > But it will change how we use the energy grid. > > PVs are already doing it. That is what lead to the safety cutout > device to prevent reverse feeding the grid. > > The problem with the Magnetic Motors that I know about is that they > don't throttle back well. They want to see constant loading. > > Terry > > ------=_Part_4294_15292027.1170376147380 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Still no one has really answered the whole question, which is basically what would happen to this world where it currently is if it was suddenly given technology which is at a level seen in Star Trek?

Would it be likely to play out well or poorly?
And what could be done to ensure it's more good than not?

I guess that in truth it could go many ways and all that can be speculated on is some of the different possibilities.

But at least by being forewarned some might be avoidable or minimized.

Jed, you strike me as the perfect person to have a crack at this..


On 2/2/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com > wrote:
On 2/1/07, Harry Veeder < eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> FE won't eliminate the energy grid.
> But it will change how we use the energy grid.

PVs are already doing it.  That is what lead to the safety cutout
device to prevent reverse feeding the grid.

The problem with the Magnetic Motors that I know about is that they
don't throttle back well.  They want to see constant loading.

Terry


------=_Part_4294_15292027.1170376147380-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:35:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120ZHSr016062; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:35:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120ZGiS016043; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:35:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:35:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dbroEtETN09t3XU5sekXqtXvAuKYNUcXU6VmNQo1Pfy5THPenx81lQTuRl0u2iQyEM7PBQwK7gt23GVY16q/bB0okFG4YtgHnVLt0fRcOj+2JJM55/mAKapqlRdS2KOGu/+MqydcrEo20+85gvyX2s6VKgFIFaf4KTZ62Ol6DK0= Message-ID: <45C28719.7090804@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:34:33 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) IOW, you have no point? :-) ... I got the humor in your previous post. > To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in fact at least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: field energy, or potential energy, or work done by the forces. Your quote, "To Paul: typing this makes me realize that you cannot consistently deny the concept of potential energy and accept that of voltage (potential)" Despite your humor, such a statement demonstrates you do not understand the theory. E-field is detectable, has location, occupies space, and we can calculate its energy. If one considers E-fields as PE then they truly believe everything is PE, including KE. KE is detectable, has location, occupies space, and we can calculate its energy. ... Please, click the PE and press the delete button. Regards, Paul Lowrance > All in all the third way: > > Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces > > seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way round as is commonly thought. > > How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:48 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> (*) To Paul: typing this makes me realize that you cannot >> consistently deny the concept of potential energy and accept that of >> voltage (potential) :-) >> >> >> >> Michel, Michel, Michel ... we went over this. As previously stated, I >> do not consider the electric field as potential energy because we can >> detect E-fields, know where it exists, how much energy it contains. >> Again, my theory works out nicely regarding E-fields. Two *oppositely* >> charged separated particles attract and accelerate. While the two >> particles gain KE there is a simultaneous decrease in net electric >> fields. :-) >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 16:38:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l120cWQ4022235; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:38:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l120cVgo022220; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:38:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:38:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=rH4cS10UvoB12Ac2+ZqW4IdYXbTAqIIRmvvdG0JDxut2j0nc/PvE4DpndZtTgGvajItgpwDSWNDN2OfFWz/0mV6CqaquiofeoQ+/mjtHe8B1/dRQdGYsw0y4/B4Oblxj11Ln01KKkHR4l1CcD0FTDCA8F84agxDntB2bqTieXxU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:38:29 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4306_30031947.1170376709681" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4306_30031947.1170376709681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/2/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > This is my last comment on this thread as I for sure live in a different > world than the rest of you. Move. Plus I just don't see New Zealand taxing people based on the power they would have used if connected to the grid. ------=_Part_4306_30031947.1170376709681 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/2/07, Stiffler Scientific <stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
This is my last comment on this thread as I for sure live in a different
world than the rest of you.

Move.

Plus I just don't see New Zealand taxing people based on the power they would have used if connected to the grid.
------=_Part_4306_30031947.1170376709681-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 17:01:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1211j2S031054; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:01:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1211hGA031024; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:01:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:01:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EKR8yfa+XhPKAEBXPNC8Vw9NOKgpOeV3xmsKHwVvjHNO5AECZP6+0XVi5U8eSGpoiu5NA9RCCXGZuxYVfRLl9G7d3grq31ug8P2yd0NzSZLXJNuczSWYzuBWOtRkIlBIJWzykCHq0RcECLCFJ8jnHVTOFDTnL28JaMGeM7nkSsY= Message-ID: <45C28D4C.2010402@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:01:00 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: StifflerScientific wrote: >>> Hogwash! You left out one major aspect; goodness will prevail in the >>> long run. The government you speak of will one day be replaced with >>> something wonderful. You're looking at an uprising in people against >>> controlling governments. The people cannot be enslaved forever. There's >>> coming a peace period on Earth, and your described government and people >>> will be unwelcome. > > Not in my life time and not in yours if ever. But if I go first which I may > well do, you can always say I was wrong. Unless you know some deep dark > secret about a visit from the 'Little Green Men', I think you may be living > in wonderland. If you can say with all the problems in the world and all the > different beliefs that we will all come together, then I want what you are > smokin :-) No disrespect ment, but what is the basis of you idea that > sometning is close after all these thousands of years?? [snip] Well then we disagree. Look at the patterns. Power is not the only option. Humanity will get tired of playing the theatrical play titled, "Power" and move to a new game called "Efficiency." While the world rages in power there's an upcoming force that will sweep the nations by surprise as society becomes more efficient. Example, car factories ran by computers and robotics. The employed human is rapidly being replaced. Soon intelligent robots will be able to replace just about everything a human can perform. Here in California most supermarkets and large stores such as Home Depot have automated lanes where the computer takes the place of a person. This force is unstoppable. People as a whole are becoming educated and more civilized. You may ask, "What about all the wars in the middle east?" Yes, change brings pain. When you mix negative with positive you get energy. The Middle East is in the process of changing from the old ancient religious ways to one of high-tech civilized society. It's an explosion of energy. You'll just have to wait and see. Things will eventually settle down, but don't expect a joy ride anytime soon. China and the U.S. for example are so oppositely polarized. That alone will be quite a display of energy when they perhaps but heads in say 10 years from now. Give it all 15 to 20 more years and things should settle down. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 17:09:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1219JQQ001344; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:09:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1219Hk8001325; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:09:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:09:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ms1tPtrRtLJz3VUKXdfVh/Kw/KXjSlceqyZOeqCxUEs1Z+LKg98ZOrZwqU5PRThVx0fsFenzlBbIv/5K5zu++ty3qloL1VmIqqETxLB5KpX/6rd8LBgJcXT52h6Hw5vkDWpzuQPmjKdTXIVjqk7Vd4vQtLatEeCsxfSzefpCT0k= Message-ID: <45C28F15.5060201@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:08:37 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Still no one has really answered the whole question, which is basically what > would happen to this world where it currently is if it was suddenly given > technology which is at a level seen in Star Trek? I already answered. Change equals pain, or energy depending how you want to look at it. The faster the change the more released energy. Society will evolve, adapt, and reach equilibrium. Presently as society becomes more efficient we find an increase in sales people, which for the present moment seems to help balancing things out everything. Only good will eventually come from "free energy." ... "Star Trek" society sounds good to me, where people focus on helping others rather than making $. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 17:10:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l121Apsd001723; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:10:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l121Aooh001704; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:10:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:10:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017f01c74666$fc4aaf70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C28719.7090804@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 02:10:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l121AjsM001660 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, 1/ If you think the potential vs potential energy remark was just humor, you are showing great ignorance. Look up the definition of voltage = electric potential: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential "Electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge associated with a static (time-invariant) electric field, also called the electrostatic potential, typically measured in volts." and then tell me if you click "voltage" and delete it too :) 2/ You seem to be eluding my question wrt the formulation of KE in terms of work (below). Click "everything that doesn't fit" and delete it? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > ... I got the humor in your previous post. ... > > All in all the third way: > > > > Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces > > > > seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all > types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most > fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way > round as is commonly thought. > > > > How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? > > > > Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 17:20:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l121K3xk005421; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:20:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l121K194005379; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:20:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:20:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018c01c74668$4053b800$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 02:19:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l121JmA2005249 Resent-Message-ID: <2BqPbC.A._TB.AHpwFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another problem which comes to mind is that they don't work :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > On 2/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> FE won't eliminate the energy grid. >> But it will change how we use the energy grid. > > PVs are already doing it. That is what lead to the safety cutout > device to prevent reverse feeding the grid. > > The problem with the Magnetic Motors that I know about is that they > don't throttle back well. They want to see constant loading. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 18:13:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l122CpKm031786; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:12:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l122CnBT031761; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:12:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:10:55 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: StifflerScientific wrote: > Harry! > > Where do you live anyway, and do you have more than a 100W light? :-) > > Here in Humble TX, during the summer I pay on average $320 per month for AC > when I keep the temp at 77' with new 13 SEER AC units and solar screens, > roof ridge vents, electric attic fans. So I guess the feds will be happy > with taxing me on $60 a months instead of $320 month for energy? > > Good try.... Government will also be able to spend less on electrical bills. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 18:28:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l122SVu0005274; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:28:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l122STBa005251; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:28:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:28:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn motor, was Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:30:29 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0373_01C74637.6EA98EE0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <380258.35223.qm@web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0373_01C74637.6EA98EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Sean McCarthy CEO of Steorn and the posters to the Kinetica forum on their website ( http://www.Steorn.net/forum ), and the apparent efforts of Sean to get the information out, but without jeopardizing his patent applications, here's what I think so far: Magnetic viscosity (V[s]) is a time delay between an applied magnetic field to a ferromagnetic material (H field) and an induced field (B) as I understand it. There's very little information on Internet about that :-( Create a zone of zero magnetic field inside a powerful magnetic field (such as between two magnets repelling). Insert a piece of large V[s] material (Iron?) in that zone. Pull it out quickly (no magnetic force and no potential energy because it takes time to magnetize it). Let it get sucked back in slowly. It will become magnetized as it enters the high B field and when it reaches the null zone it becomes magnetically neutral again. Voila --free energy from the suck-in phase (to use a scientific term) :-) ! Apparently Noether's theorem ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem ) is not valid because it requires time invariance. Everyone asks "where does the energy come from?" Why does it have to come from anywhere? Maybe it just is. See http://www.bitzracing.com/steorn/null_flux_density.html I envision using a Whitworth quick return mechanism ( http://iel.ucdavis.edu/projects/mechanism/quickreturn/snapshots.html ) to accomplish that, or better still, a Cardan universal joint at an angle, both with flywheels attached. I've already ordered about 30 more large NdFeBo magnets. I'd better get them before they're made illegal or taxed :-) . Questions: What materials have high V[s]? Where can I get a cheap shaper tool (they use Whitworth mechanisms)? Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com From: Rhong Dhong [mailto:rongdong99@yahoo.com] "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." wrote: Rather than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid. I think the cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now think I understand how it works, and it's simple)..... For God's sake, man, tell us the details! ------=_NextPart_000_0373_01C74637.6EA98EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks=20 to Sean McCarthy CEO of Steorn and the posters to the Kinetica forum on = their=20 website ( http://www.Steorn.net/forum=20 ), and the apparent efforts of Sean to get the information out, but = without=20 jeopardizing his patent applications, here's what I think so=20 far:
 
Magnetic viscosity (V[s]) is a time delay = between an=20 applied magnetic field to a ferromagnetic material (H field) and an = induced=20 field (B) as I understand it.
There's very little information on Internet = about that=20 :-(
 
Create=20 a zone of zero magnetic field inside a powerful magnetic field (such as = between=20 two magnets repelling).
Insert=20 a piece of large V[s] material (Iron?) in that zone.  Pull it out = quickly=20 (no magnetic force and no potential energy because it takes time to = magnetize it).
Let it=20 get sucked back in slowly. It will become magnetized as it enters the = high B=20 field and when it reaches the null zone it becomes magnetically neutral=20 again.
 Voila --free energy from the suck-in = phase (to=20 use a scientific term)  :-) !
 
Apparently Noether's theorem  ( http://en.wikip= edia.org/wiki/Noether%27s_theorem ) is=20 not valid because it requires time invariance.  Everyone asks = "where does=20 the energy come from?" Why does it have to come from anywhere?  = Maybe it=20 just is.
 
See http://w= ww.bitzracing.com/steorn/null_flux_density.html
 
I=20 envision using a Whitworth quick return mechanism  ( http://iel.ucdavis.edu/projects/mechanism/quickreturn/snapshots.html=  )=20 to accomplish that, or better still, a Cardan universal joint at an = angle,=20  both with flywheels attached.
 
I've=20 already ordered about 30 more large NdFeBo magnets.  I'd better get = them=20 before they're made illegal or taxed :-) .
 
Questions:
 
What=20 materials have high V[s]?
Where=20 can I get a cheap shaper tool (they use Whitworth=20 mechanisms)?
 
Hoyt=20 Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US
http://HoytStearns.com<= /DIV>
From: Rhong Dhong=20 [mailto:rongdong99@yahoo.com]
"Hoyt A. Stearns Jr."=20 <hoyt-stearns@cox.net> wrote:

Rather=20 than taking off the grid, put power back into the grid.

I = think the=20 cost would be much less. Get a 50 HP Steorn motor (and I now think I = understand how it works, and it's = simple).....

For God's=20 sake, man, tell us the details!

------=_NextPart_000_0373_01C74637.6EA98EE0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 18:48:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l122mbqr005348; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l122mZNV005326; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:46:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_DKi2AICHrKvUKJiVTclYGg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_DKi2AICHrKvUKJiVTclYGg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT John Berry wrote: Still no one has really answered the whole question, which is basically what would happen to this world where it currently is if it was suddenly given technology which is at a level seen in Star Trek? Depends what you mean by "suddenly". Over night, over years, over decades? The invention of the automobile did not make horses vanish over night. Today most people think the horse-less carriage is wonderful, but I am sure many people regarded it with suspicion and they were right to think so. Harry --Boundary_(ID_DKi2AICHrKvUKJiVTclYGg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. John Berry wrote:

Still no one has really answered the whole question, which is basically what would happen to this world where it currently is if it was suddenly given technology which is at a level seen in Star Trek?


Depends what you mean by "suddenly". Over night, over years, over decades?
The invention of the automobile did not make horses vanish over night.

Today most people think the horse-less carriage is wonderful, but I am sure many
people regarded it with suspicion and they were right to think so.

Harry


--Boundary_(ID_DKi2AICHrKvUKJiVTclYGg)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 19:22:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l123MGPq025955; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:22:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l123MCbc025936; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:22:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:22:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=MuKJ9v+oHWCjagE9imCNA1jAD0TTLcN9KDnbPwYrtHkZoO99HbdN6hNeqSKGbnPUR1XEySYBuU0xWcys0qK+uhnNkLdRaohLcwc/9A64qRzwahRtKLQbtA8LEESb3jTjLimFn81Njc56PLvw11jS8Jqm8+40WyJTaISH+haZyXQ= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:22:11 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-Reply-To: <017f01c74666$fc4aaf70$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4558_25246321.1170386531004" References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C28719.7090804@gmail.com> <017f01c74666$fc4aaf70$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <-t8QR.A.MVG.j5qwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4558_25246321.1170386531004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Almost all energy is potential energy really. Motion is potential as it depends of the reference frame, voltage is potential. Just because you can measure it doesn't mean it's not potential, you can measure gravity, magnetic fields, motion... The one exception that I can think of is light (or em waves) they seem to be inherently energy, although how much depends on you motion relative to the light (60 hz VLF could be cosmic rays to your POV if you were moving fast enough) heat is of course just a form of motion. On 2/2/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Paul, > > 1/ If you think the potential vs potential energy remark was just humor, > you are showing great ignorance. Look up the definition of voltage = > electric potential: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential > > "Electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge associated > with a static (time-invariant) electric field, also called the electrostatic > potential, typically measured in volts." > > and then tell me if you click "voltage" and delete it too :) > > 2/ You seem to be eluding my question wrt the formulation of KE in terms > of work (below). Click "everything that doesn't fit" and delete it? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > > > > ... I got the humor in your previous post. > ... > > > All in all the third way: > > > > > > Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces > > > > > > seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all > > types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most > > fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way > > round as is commonly thought. > > > > > > How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? > > > > > > Michel > > > ------=_Part_4558_25246321.1170386531004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Almost all energy is potential energy really.

Motion is potential as it depends of the reference frame, voltage is potential.

Just because you can measure it doesn't mean it's not potential, you can measure gravity, magnetic fields, motion...

The one exception that I can think of is light (or em waves) they seem to be inherently energy, although how much depends on you motion relative to the light (60 hz VLF could be cosmic rays to your POV if you were moving fast enough)

heat is of course just a form of motion.

On 2/2/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Paul,

1/ If you think the potential vs potential energy remark was just humor, you are showing great ignorance. Look up the definition of voltage = electric potential:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential

"Electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge associated with a static (time-invariant) electric field, also called the electrostatic potential, typically measured in volts."

and then tell me if you click "voltage" and delete it too :)

2/ You seem to be eluding my question wrt the formulation of KE in terms of work (below). Click "everything that doesn't fit" and delete it?

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: <energymover@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question


> ... I got the humor in your previous post.
...
> > All in all the third way:
> >
> > Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces
> >
> > seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all
> types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most
> fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way
> round as is commonly thought.
> >
> > How does the work approach fit with your violation theory?
> >
> > Michel



------=_Part_4558_25246321.1170386531004-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 19:38:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l123c50h020929; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:38:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l123c4O5020912; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:38:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:38:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C2B218.1080000@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:38:00 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8-4pe.A.mGF.bIrwFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) > > To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for > field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in fact at > least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: field energy, > or potential energy, or work done by the forces. A minor nit to pick: Potential and field energy may be interchangeable for electric fields, but apparently not for magnetic fields. Permanent magnetic dipoles have potential energy = -mu.B which is not tracked by the total field energy. Case in point: If the field of one dipole has energy E, then the fields of two widely separated dipoles have total energy 2E. Let them pull themselves together until they touch end to end -- the potential energy drops, but the total field energy increases, to about 4E, as the two fields overlap almost exactly. (The energy density goes as field intensity squared, so halving the volume while doubling the intensity yields a net energy increase of 2x). So if we include permanent magnets in the picture, it's going to be awkward to replace PE with field energy everywhere. I think this may be what led Paul to assert that nobody knows where the energy comes from in this case. > > All in all the third way: > > Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces > > seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all > types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most > fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way > round as is commonly thought. > > How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? > > Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 21:23:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l125NbdO002319; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:23:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l125Na5G002271; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:23:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:23:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:21:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Almost all energy is potential energy really. > > Motion is potential as it depends of the reference frame, voltage is > potential. > > Just because you can measure it doesn't mean it's not potential, you can > measure gravity, magnetic fields, motion... Actually, the only thing we measure are spatial and temporal intervals. The rest is interpretation and calculation. e.g. This deflection in this time means so much weight or current ...etc. > heat is of course just a form of motion. That is not open for debate? ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 21:44:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l125ihds011841; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:44:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l125igek011826; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:44:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:44:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:42:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-reply-to: <45C2B218.1080000@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_ll7f.A.u4C.K_swFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A force field, an energy field ... a field of dreams. (Don't forget to dream.) Harry Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) >> >> To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for >> field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in fact at >> least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: field energy, >> or potential energy, or work done by the forces. > > A minor nit to pick: Potential and field energy may be interchangeable > for electric fields, but apparently not for magnetic fields. Permanent > magnetic dipoles have potential energy = -mu.B which is not tracked by > the total field energy. Case in point: If the field of one dipole has > energy E, then the fields of two widely separated dipoles have total > energy 2E. Let them pull themselves together until they touch end to > end -- the potential energy drops, but the total field energy increases, > to about 4E, as the two fields overlap almost exactly. (The energy > density goes as field intensity squared, so halving the volume while > doubling the intensity yields a net energy increase of 2x). > > So if we include permanent magnets in the picture, it's going to be > awkward to replace PE with field energy everywhere. I think this may be > what led Paul to assert that nobody knows where the energy comes from in > this case. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 21:49:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l125nAJQ016326; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:49:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l125n8Yf016296; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:49:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:49:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:48:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:49:00 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l125n27a015974 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:26:06 -0600: Hi, [snip] >John, a stupid question if I may? > >If I understand what you are saying, you assume the mag field creates a >spatial imprint which remains for some length of time after the magnets are >moved? > >If this is corrected, then while the magnets are moving, do they still >retain a field? or is it latent and waiting to catch up? Both. New field is created, and the old tries to catch up. The field tries to "catch up" at the speed of light. In a sense this is what is happening with an antenna. The magnet gets "made and destroyed" rather than being moved, and the result is EM waves. So you could say that a photon comprises the retarded field. IOW if you could move the magnet fast enough it would radiate. (In an antenna the little magnets called electrons get moved very fast). Note the time of day of this post, and be gentle in your response. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 23:42:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l127g3gX016742; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l127dL13015894; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:39:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:39:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01c401c7469d$433e3ab0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:39:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l127dGbs015863 Resent-Message-ID: <2-QStC.A.P4D.pquwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It makes sense. What's special about the time of day of your post anyway? :) (Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:48:57 +1100) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... > In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:26:06 -0600: > Hi, > [snip] >>John, a stupid question if I may? >> >>If I understand what you are saying, you assume the mag field creates a >>spatial imprint which remains for some length of time after the magnets are >>moved? >> >>If this is corrected, then while the magnets are moving, do they still >>retain a field? or is it latent and waiting to catch up? > > > Both. New field is created, and the old tries to catch up. > The field tries to "catch up" at the speed of light. In a sense this is what is > happening with an antenna. The magnet gets "made and destroyed" rather than > being moved, and the result is EM waves. So you could say that a photon > comprises the retarded field. IOW if you could move the magnet fast enough it > would radiate. (In an antenna the little magnets called electrons get moved very > fast). > > Note the time of day of this post, and be gentle in your response. ;) > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 00:34:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l128XqfF009826; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:33:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l128XoK3009804; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:33:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:33:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ca01c746a4$e07b8240$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C2B218.1080000@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:33:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l128XlBL009775 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Right, this is Paul's paradox (he does make sense occasionally ;), so it seems only the second and third way of looking at things (potential energy and work of forces) are equivalent in all cases. Maybe the paradox comes from electric and gravitational fields being static in nature whereas magnetic field results from a motion? Maybe a full relativistic analysis could reconcile all approaches. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) >> >> To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for >> field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in fact at >> least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: field energy, >> or potential energy, or work done by the forces. > > A minor nit to pick: Potential and field energy may be interchangeable > for electric fields, but apparently not for magnetic fields. Permanent > magnetic dipoles have potential energy = -mu.B which is not tracked by > the total field energy. Case in point: If the field of one dipole has > energy E, then the fields of two widely separated dipoles have total > energy 2E. Let them pull themselves together until they touch end to > end -- the potential energy drops, but the total field energy increases, > to about 4E, as the two fields overlap almost exactly. (The energy > density goes as field intensity squared, so halving the volume while > doubling the intensity yields a net energy increase of 2x). > > So if we include permanent magnets in the picture, it's going to be > awkward to replace PE with field energy everywhere. I think this may be > what led Paul to assert that nobody knows where the energy comes from in > this case. > > >> >> All in all the third way: >> >> Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces >> >> seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with all >> types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the most >> fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the other way >> round as is commonly thought. >> >> How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? >> >> Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 04:34:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12CYcAq008638; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 04:34:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12CYZHY008512; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 04:34:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 04:34:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EiLqJF3KHT8tFcFYZIGf4/o6xn2yN7PWZuoeRLY5+t3xNIiKAR0Kvm797kfozpDQMrbaire//o7ctqup1BhW24ZwyA8gwf7rctzBMyzBp5o28yqrXG6lzSUXcMKPpC/3nHnJ9ulW7zVRL6eXyrI0iMRQahiX+xES5upklJyYZMY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:34:33 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/1/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > This is my last comment on this thread as I for sure live in a different > world than the rest of you. Wanna bet? :-) > PV's Oh yes if you want a 35 year recover, unless you will settle for 10-20% > energy offset which can be wiped out in 2-3 years by increased utility cost. > SO what is the bottom line, a longer payoff for energy than the home. My > home of 3600sqft needs a BIG $104K PV array for no better than a 64% power > offset averaged over the year. So take $104K plus interest for 35 years and > I guess I'll buy from the grid. Not if you buy from Serge and Larry: http://www.nanosolar.com/ Insiders say that these will be available at 5% of the amorphous silicon cost in 5 years. Couple these with EEStor's ultracapacitors and, well, invest in inverter company stock! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 05:00:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12D0CRZ021948; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:00:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12D0BDV021929; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:00:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:00:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=AiiRxBI0yetPf3b7U5+G+lk7nPKR4nYKY2GwjqhkwVTef9lSNYUwznLtrcawg6WOe45SzW0VXXfMp8VGSGQShtTSD1g1H6Z/awaBtbgd1hifVp0MOq4GrdWTO8Gm23Gs2BFDEQh8SBPMaWioS8DAlFqJpbEA9pqBwUbTk9ANgUM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:00:08 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <0Hxhm.A.lWF.bXzwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/1/07, John Berry wrote: > Jed, you strike me as the perfect person to have a crack at this.. Jed addresses this in his book: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 05:21:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12DLWiB032752; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:21:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12DLVf4032736; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:21:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:21:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <021601c746cd$0a5d11a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:21:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l12DLPDW032695 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If Nanosolar and EEstor, or any companies with similar products, succeed, this planet might indeed become a cooler place to live. Speaking of global warming, the latest IPCC report has just come out: Feb. 2, 2007, 6:23AM Global warming man-made, will continue By SETH BORENSTEIN AP Science Writer © 2007 The Associated Press PARIS - Scientists from 113 countries issued a landmark report Friday saying they have little doubt global warming is caused by man, and predicting that hotter temperatures and rises in sea level will "continue for centuries" no matter how much humans control their pollution. More... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4520802.html -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > On 2/1/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: >> This is my last comment on this thread as I for sure live in a different >> world than the rest of you. > > Wanna bet? :-) > >> PV's Oh yes if you want a 35 year recover, unless you will settle for 10-20% >> energy offset which can be wiped out in 2-3 years by increased utility cost. >> SO what is the bottom line, a longer payoff for energy than the home. My >> home of 3600sqft needs a BIG $104K PV array for no better than a 64% power >> offset averaged over the year. So take $104K plus interest for 35 years and >> I guess I'll buy from the grid. > > Not if you buy from Serge and Larry: > > http://www.nanosolar.com/ > > Insiders say that these will be available at 5% of the amorphous > silicon cost in 5 years. Couple these with EEStor's ultracapacitors > and, well, invest in inverter company stock! > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 05:30:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12DTrEs013488; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12DToFU013469; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:29:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:29:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <021b01c746ce$31df3ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <021601c746cd$0a5d11a0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:29:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l12DTg2A013421 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The link to the actual report (Summary for Policymakers in fact) in the article is wrong, here is the correct one: http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > If Nanosolar and EEstor, or any companies with similar products, succeed, this planet might indeed become a cooler place to live. Speaking of global warming, the latest IPCC report has just come out: > > Feb. 2, 2007, 6:23AM > Global warming man-made, will continue > > By SETH BORENSTEIN AP Science Writer > © 2007 The Associated Press > > PARIS - Scientists from 113 countries issued a landmark report Friday saying they have little doubt global warming is caused by man, and predicting that hotter temperatures and rises in sea level will "continue for centuries" no matter how much humans control their pollution. > > More... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4520802.html > > -- > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now what? An important theoretical question. > > >> On 2/1/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: >>> This is my last comment on this thread as I for sure live in a different >>> world than the rest of you. >> >> Wanna bet? :-) >> >>> PV's Oh yes if you want a 35 year recover, unless you will settle for 10-20% >>> energy offset which can be wiped out in 2-3 years by increased utility cost. >>> SO what is the bottom line, a longer payoff for energy than the home. My >>> home of 3600sqft needs a BIG $104K PV array for no better than a 64% power >>> offset averaged over the year. So take $104K plus interest for 35 years and >>> I guess I'll buy from the grid. >> >> Not if you buy from Serge and Larry: >> >> http://www.nanosolar.com/ >> >> Insiders say that these will be available at 5% of the amorphous >> silicon cost in 5 years. Couple these with EEStor's ultracapacitors >> and, well, invest in inverter company stock! >> >> Terry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 06:27:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12ERlIN027623; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:27:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12ERjgv027602; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:27:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:27:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C34A5C.80809@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:27:40 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C2B218.1080000@pobox.com> <01ca01c746a4$e07b8240$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <01ca01c746a4$e07b8240$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Right, this is Paul's paradox (he does make sense occasionally ;), so > it seems only the second and third way of looking at things > (potential energy and work of forces) are equivalent in all cases. > > Maybe the paradox comes from electric and gravitational fields being > static in nature whereas magnetic field results from a motion? Something just occurred to me when I read that. A "dipole" made of two nearby monopoles shows the same effect, and we can build one of those from electric charges. So, two electric dipoles will also show increasing field energy as they draw together. Hmmm.... This deserves more thought... > Maybe > a full relativistic analysis could reconcile all approaches. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: Sent: Friday, February > 02, 2007 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > > >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) >>> >>> To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for >>> field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in >>> fact at least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: >>> field energy, or potential energy, or work done by the forces. >> A minor nit to pick: Potential and field energy may be >> interchangeable for electric fields, but apparently not for >> magnetic fields. Permanent magnetic dipoles have potential energy = >> -mu.B which is not tracked by the total field energy. Case in >> point: If the field of one dipole has energy E, then the fields of >> two widely separated dipoles have total energy 2E. Let them pull >> themselves together until they touch end to end -- the potential >> energy drops, but the total field energy increases, to about 4E, as >> the two fields overlap almost exactly. (The energy density goes as >> field intensity squared, so halving the volume while doubling the >> intensity yields a net energy increase of 2x). >> >> So if we include permanent magnets in the picture, it's going to be >> awkward to replace PE with field energy everywhere. I think this >> may be what led Paul to assert that nobody knows where the energy >> comes from in this case. >> >> >>> All in all the third way: >>> >>> Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces >>> >>> seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with >>> all types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the >>> most fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the >>> other way round as is commonly thought. >>> >>> How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? >>> >>> Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 06:35:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12EZjGg030618; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:35:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12EZiwt030605; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:35:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:35:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <023901c746d7$697162e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C2B218.1080000@pobox.com> <01ca01c746a4$e07b8240$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C34A5C.80809@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:35:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l12EZg1D030575 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So it would be a property of dipoles in fact, interesting indeed, keep us tuned! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Right, this is Paul's paradox (he does make sense occasionally ;), so >> it seems only the second and third way of looking at things >> (potential energy and work of forces) are equivalent in all cases. >> >> Maybe the paradox comes from electric and gravitational fields being >> static in nature whereas magnetic field results from a motion? > > Something just occurred to me when I read that. A "dipole" made of two > nearby monopoles shows the same effect, and we can build one of those > from electric charges. > > So, two electric dipoles will also show increasing field energy as they > draw together. > > Hmmm.... This deserves more thought... > > >> Maybe >> a full relativistic analysis could reconcile all approaches. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> To: Sent: Friday, February >> 02, 2007 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question >> >> >>> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) >>>> >>>> To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for >>>> field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in >>>> fact at least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: >>>> field energy, or potential energy, or work done by the forces. >>> A minor nit to pick: Potential and field energy may be >>> interchangeable for electric fields, but apparently not for >>> magnetic fields. Permanent magnetic dipoles have potential energy = >>> -mu.B which is not tracked by the total field energy. Case in >>> point: If the field of one dipole has energy E, then the fields of >>> two widely separated dipoles have total energy 2E. Let them pull >>> themselves together until they touch end to end -- the potential >>> energy drops, but the total field energy increases, to about 4E, as >>> the two fields overlap almost exactly. (The energy density goes as >>> field intensity squared, so halving the volume while doubling the >>> intensity yields a net energy increase of 2x). >>> >>> So if we include permanent magnets in the picture, it's going to be >>> awkward to replace PE with field energy everywhere. I think this >>> may be what led Paul to assert that nobody knows where the energy >>> comes from in this case. >>> >>> >>>> All in all the third way: >>>> >>>> Kinetic energy change = Work done by the forces >>>> >>>> seems the most sensible to me as it is universal (functions with >>>> all types of forces), it is not 'potential', and it is also the >>>> most fundamental since fields are defined from forces, not the >>>> other way round as is commonly thought. >>>> >>>> How does the work approach fit with your violation theory? >>>> >>>> Michel >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 07:19:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12FIJLL017281; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:18:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12FHYD9016830; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:17:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:17:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dfqIWjqsZg6fM4J87EAZh6NpbjqZn3cLFvnBqbz+v4oPnEIMTbLybmz6F28DPm/h1hf0WX/2OhczW75q+fMKZmmizyFqJf1KEIHpieBBJfNzPZYzpM9OnqB0Q1gUQCPey/sEoLK9gXFCGwna+6zolaD9Fw3BsT5K+uqdhipA9KQ= Message-ID: <45C355E6.7030604@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 07:16:54 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> <002901c74661$3cf37a30$80d4163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <002901c74661$3cf37a30$80d4163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Mega tax dollars being spent on superstring theory and the like is perhaps the largest 21st century violation of "separation of church and state" that exists. No one seems to know if the thing can be proven or disproven at all, its a big argument. This is not science, it is is religion. There is vast difference between religion and spirituality or metaphysics. Religions are based on faith, repetitive actions such as bowing X amount of times, eating something such as bread, drinking something such as wine or grape juice, saying a bunch of words, etc. No offense, and there's nothing wrong those acts in particular, but what does indeed do the harm is when they demand others follow there actions to the point of killing and/or causing wars. Spirituality or metaphysics on the other hand should be about developing the mind and heart. If M-theory were even 1/10 as negative as you feel then the physics community has fallen because a great deal of the top physicists around the world are working on it. It does indeed predict and seems promising, which is why they are spending so much time and money on it. Good luck to you, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 07:30:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12FU6l8032322; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:30:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12FU4rv032306; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:30:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:30:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gSUr3vHw2oRUWxwouqDO959Bwbdh5xV95cpXtCPl7/qenhW9oBZLX4WXzmInEWZ0vWVpq4xn00jjVb6Ea8U/iAgZsvsy0wrJ4a+C7U8J1yqg1ofyCjYgfVD5e7ue2pLCFvbfaL25Jh145IWP2CRXCEbmnFDfc0UMMbA+GP6vJ6c= Message-ID: <45C358D4.4060409@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 07:29:24 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C28719.7090804@gmail.com> <017f01c74666$fc4aaf70$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <017f01c74666$fc4aaf70$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul, > > 1/ If you think the potential vs potential energy remark was just humor, you are showing great ignorance. Look up the definition of voltage = electric potential: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential > > "Electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge associated with a static (time-invariant) electric field, also called the electrostatic potential, typically measured in volts." > > and then tell me if you click "voltage" and delete it too :) > > 2/ You seem to be eluding my question wrt the formulation of KE in terms of work (below). Click "everything that doesn't fit" and delete it? > > Michel This is too funny. I keep telling you standard physics has no idea, which is why they call it PE. Again, E-field is detectable, has location, occupies space, and we can calculate its energy. If one considers E-fields as PE then they truly believe everything is PE, including KE. KE is detectable, has location, occupies space, and we can calculate its energy. "Gee, lets call everything PE. Look at that comet moving across the sky. Gosh, that's potential energy, therefore lets call it potential energy." Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 09:03:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12H3Ora007929; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:03:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12H3MHP007906; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:03:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:03:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VbLKC62zL6UlPIsECltVYqloz3awL/jn/mi5mM/w+xWkPAt3dVnG+29t9zVNib9SL0UBVv+fAKGJn8ChM021N9AP8I2UsH0TEC31tMkjiVoJ/CpTNm9eQwFw2cIZTeILNye5/0vDpOPgi+3BgOluqaXExxqQAy9LMfcurPGlAs8= Message-ID: <45C36EB1.1050408@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:02:41 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: <006601c745f7$854b6d20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C219D4.3000003@gmail.com> <011f01c7465d$122b02e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C2B218.1080000@pobox.com> <01ca01c746a4$e07b8240$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C34A5C.80809@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45C34A5C.80809@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > so it seems only the second and third way of looking at things (potential energy and work of forces) are equivalent in all cases. Bingo! Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Paul, Paul, Paul you missed my point again, never mind :) >> >> To go back to your pet theory, since as you said the formulae for >> field energy and potential energy are the same, there are in fact at >> least three equivalent ways to describe the same thing: field energy, >> or potential energy, or work done by the forces. > > A minor nit to pick: Potential and field energy may be interchangeable for electric fields, but apparently not for magnetic fields. Permanent magnetic dipoles have potential energy = -mu.B which is not tracked by the total field energy. Case in point: If the field of one dipole has energy E, then the fields of two widely separated dipoles have total energy 2E. Let them pull themselves together until they touch end to end -- the potential energy drops, but the total field energy increases, to about 4E, as the two fields overlap almost exactly. (The energy density goes as field intensity squared, so halving the volume while doubling the intensity yields a net energy increase of 2x). Exactly, and hence the main point of this thread. This was discussed early on in the thread, but was derailed by face saving attempts. :-( Two electro-magnets or current-loops demonstrate where the energy comes from. > So if we include permanent magnets in the picture, it's going to be awkward to replace PE with field energy everywhere. I think this may be what led Paul to assert that nobody knows where the energy comes from in this case. [snip] Amen! Two attracted current-loops moving toward each other induce an opposing voltage on the current-loops, which removes energy from the source that maintains the current. Here's the theory --> It requires energy to create an electron and positron. Therefore we know the electron contains energy. Energy is moving from the electron to KE with an increase in net magnetic field as two attracted magnetic dipole moments accelerate toward each other. I firmly believe such energy comes from the electron. This is simply moving energy. This also works in the case E-fields or even gravity fields. Two attracted opposite charges accelerating toward each other gain KE. Such KE comes from the E-field-- the net E-field decreases as they move closer. Similarly, two oppositely charged particles require energy when forced together. Such energy goes into a net increase in E-field. Here's another interesting aspect of the theory. Consider an electron and positron accelerating toward each other. The net E-fields decrease as they approach, thereby adding KE. Furthermore, the magnetic dipole moments of both particles tend to align on average. We know that when two current-loops (magnetic dipole moments) move toward each other in alignment that energy is moving from the current source to KE. Similarly, I believe energy is moving from the two particles to KE and radiation as they move toward each other in alignment. Interestingly enough the two particles are considered annihilated when they reach certain proximity. It seems likely energy is being drained from the two particles as they move toward each other until such a point they become unstable, in which the two particles disrupt their internal structures. Given the above, it appears energy is removed from the electron as it accelerates. Also energy is added to the electron as it decelerates. This lead to other thoughts such as perhaps what would happen if we accelerate the electron to c. This could possibly drain the electron. Initially I thought this could annihilate the electron, but now I question if anything would happen to such electron. Such acceleration may not change the internal structure of the electron. Therefore, the electron could simply slow down and remain intact. It appears it requires another particle to drain and disrupt the internal electron structure. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 10:13:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12ID8Gb007197; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:13:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12ID6Os007140; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:13:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LGeBfWPWdFb/jP+XoPzyEIrYdIhCNopE9BdNNA8Img3M4CIyBCO2XGqVNopbfXq56Uq8AumpnKXlYgAqOMqq9YQ6awTEai4U8ZxTFh/Iw/AYC7mT6pQQrPwGdlOkh09JiIwExAK5dky4cThin+rq8F7quvjbW+UzkwACBBgy7bs= ; X-YMail-OSG: .TmA3G0VM1lZLyonA3jbS.gbtkjqo2elI6VdsGdh4on9WxfOeNiWf7fOBQ7uHxRnOfs07T0agSaXpXxHEXemwzonzV6bvd.llr9qjg3.9.lmHJwOrqATnZRMOL_vOTiWZu_I0GQFXLi_SHQ- Message-ID: <45C37F2E.5070605@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:13:02 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Barker & Barium Status: O X-Status: Ref: The two patents of Wm. Barker U.S. Pat. No. 4,961,880 "Electrostatic Voltage Excitation Process and Apparatus" issued to William Barker in 1990 discloses an apparatus for utilizing electrostatic charge, in long-term irradiation, to accelerate the decay rate of some radioisotopes. U.S. Pat. No. 5,076,971 entitled "Method of Enhancing Alpha Decay in Radioactive Materials" issued to Barker in 1991, discloses a similar method and apparatus. Electrostatic fields are generally not sufficient to influence decay rates, nor other nuclear reactions, at least not in pure elements; but they (or RF HV from a Tesla-type device) can be surprisingly effective to change the decay rate (not always an increase) in *some minerals* by a factor of up to 10^6. This does not work for every mineral but for unknown reasons the effect (change in counts) is almost unbelievably accelerated - before and after irradiation. BTW the mineral which best illustrates this effect is pitchblende. Before 9/11 it and other candidate minerals were sold on eBay - but do not try to buy it these days unless you want a visit from the MIB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitchblende I am of the belief that this technique only works with mixed oxides, and possibly best with slightly reduced oxides which have a tiny trace of radium, or past radium contact - for whatever reason. I know, sounds too bizarre to even mention this (in mixed company). In what is (hopefully) the last in this series of speculative postings on the recent history of "irreproducible results" in the field of alternative energy involving element-56 *barium* this post will focus on one possible way of "conditioning" active material for magnetic cores, using a variant of the above Barker patents. BTW I hope this does not turn out to be a candidate for the "Pullet Prize" (a 'pullet' being 'southern' for a young turkey or chicken) http://www.jir.com/pullet.html The bottom line of this inquiry suggest the (remote) possibility that a form of LENR was witnessed 20 years ago (by the fortuitous discovery of F. Sweet and later by McLain/Wootan in a different device), but both of these failed to make it to the stage of reliable prototype. The 'remoteness' of this scenario being true is counterbalanced by the extreme value to society, if it can be perfected using a better understanding of the situation. Can any industrious inventor paddle upstream against conventional-wisdom and "do the impossible" at this stage? Actually, since we are talking LENR, this is not technically the impossible goal of "free energy," just a more elegant form of LENR conversion. Basically in both cases above, the prior inventors may have stumbled blindly onto "something" which looked like magnetic resonance, but they could get no further than that -- because the effect was not reproducible by themselves or others. And this gets back to the problem that the underlying modality (energy source) was "miss-diagnosed" as being related to ZPE or something else by the theorists and other self-appointed experts who got into act later. Since the observers may have missed the real modality and energy source, they would also have missed the critical points about the 'conditioning' process. A newer, unproven (and ... cough, cough...highly presumptuous) hypothesis, which has the advantage of being more easily falsifiable, is that instead of the energy source being ZPE - it is in fact "nuclear" in the sense of IPE. A short explanation of IPE - a being a variety of LENR - was offered in previous postings. For success in a VTA or MRA type of device under this scenario - well, apparently it once depended on finding a barium core or resonator being previously "activated". This may happen naturally or not (assuming that the Mu neutrino flux is the culprit). After use in a device undergoing energy extraction, the active material is gone in a few days unless it is renergized or "conditioned". The situation may be that the isotopic isomer known as 135mBa is more or less regenerated in situ from 135Ba (6% of natural) by operation of the device itself... ... or possibly, also in a conditioning process enhanced the effects of the Barker Patents above, as HV may be interacting with the solar neutrino flux, for instance. It is possible (assuming the device worked at all) that in a correct implementation, energy extraction also results in self-activation of isomeric state via the mu neutrino. As we know the solar neutrino flux is vast, beyond the imagination really - AND diurnal. There is evidence that the Sweet device was diurnal too, and the Mu neutrino happens to be in the energy range which would be able to activate the isomer. This all could be predicated on neutrino oscillation and the fact that HV serves to focus or set the flavor-changing process into motion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_oscillation Now, no one knows how or why the Barker patents work, or whether the neutrino is involved there but they have been replicated by many. I do not know yet if the same technique will work on a barium core, but it seems remotely possible (probability > 0) that this is what happened 'hot-or-miss' in the past. If so, then the practitioners may have failed to realize that the conditioning period needs to be excruciatingly long - in excess of 24 hours and preferably greater than 100 hours, under either constant electrostatic (Barker) irradiation or via RF HV from a Tesla (Oudin) setup which technically is not static. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudin_coil My hope with this collection of long-winded posts is to encourage a range of experiments with variants of Barker - applied to VTA-MRA devices, esp. since it is easy to do. Hopefully a few Aggies or Owls under Richard's tutelage will jump into the fray, despite the fact that both the Sweet VTA and McClain/Wootan MRA are viewed skeptically today (even on Vo) as devices which were little more than measurement error. Maybe so.... or maybe they were not technically OU but did work on occasion as LENR devices . Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 10:22:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12IMfGt015684; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:22:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12IMa1x015670; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:22:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:22:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YhINsX+DiKj+09aWaR3BqPakQ8pqF6w5Ivi7RkN3noGry4sy3rJ1fRnSTrW716uyOMoiMoUPogjrX3zM1WXNZ9ds4l8WOi9SKF4EXfErdwrbYDZ/drn/GybvUK91IBn9tP6dUBN4BqXX1ROzbFvLLLEVH5lLdj/WZaGDwchx0KQ= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:22:33 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <45C355E6.7030604@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> <002901c74661$3cf37a30$80d4163f@DFBGQZ91> <45C355E6.7030604@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/2/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > If M-theory were even 1/10 as negative as you feel then the physics > community has fallen because a great deal of the top physicists around > the world are working on it. It does indeed predict and seems > promising, which is why they are spending so much time and money on it. Naaa. It's because Lisa Randall is working on it: http://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/randall.html And her sister is why so many people are studying computers: http://www.math.gatech.edu/~randall/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 10:45:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12IjCVQ029323; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:45:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12Ij7hE029291; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:45:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qnzK2cGpxk3WSP3RC4JsCvF9iiCaCFGCIeTrdYtHBn8TfBZs+FOr2ji90lnNElDSlLlZmTfT5igCHYJFX7mu43a6KtKkeRtzwBERHCalIIwJSUuNyIekskKUHo/+ERpxbi40Ss2IlphZt0ckkjgoMsdRhTyMUkKAvK79uSiX/FQ= Message-ID: <45C38688.6090709@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:44:24 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <45C15769.3090409@gmail.com> <11e801c745cf$8c101700$3800a8c0@zothan> <45C21717.8070602@gmail.com> <002901c74661$3cf37a30$80d4163f@DFBGQZ91> <45C355E6.7030604@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/2/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> If M-theory were even 1/10 as negative as you feel then the physics >> community has fallen because a great deal of the top physicists around >> the world are working on it. It does indeed predict and seems >> promising, which is why they are spending so much time and money on it. > > Naaa. It's because Lisa Randall is working on it: > > http://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/randall.html > > And her sister is why so many people are studying computers: > > http://www.math.gatech.edu/~randall/ I'd hardly consider her the reason. There are far too many bigger fish working on M-theory than Lisa Randall. Umm, Ed Witten for one, lol. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 11:57:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12JvHxN011691; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:57:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12JvEZj011661; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:57:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:57:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:55:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <45C355E6.7030604@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > If M-theory were even 1/10 as negative as you feel then the physics > community has fallen because a great deal of the top physicists around > the world are working on it. It does indeed predict and seems > promising, which is why they are spending so much time and money on it. I would call it a church with a lot of power. e.g. The catholic church spent so much time and money building cathedrals in the middle ages. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 12:20:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12KK7ZZ010472; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:20:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12KK2HO010440; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:20:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:20:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:18:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question In-reply-to: <45C358D4.4060409@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7PvxgC.A.EjC.yz5wFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Paul, >> >> 1/ If you think the potential vs potential energy remark was just > humor, you are showing great ignorance. Look up the definition of > voltage = electric potential: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential >> >> "Electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge > associated with a static (time-invariant) electric field, also called > the electrostatic potential, typically measured in volts." >> >> and then tell me if you click "voltage" and delete it too :) >> >> 2/ You seem to be eluding my question wrt the formulation of KE in > terms of work (below). Click "everything that doesn't fit" and delete it? >> >> Michel > > > > This is too funny. I keep telling you standard physics has no idea, > which is why they call it PE. Again, E-field is detectable, has > location, occupies space, and we can calculate its energy. If one > considers E-fields as PE then they truly believe everything is PE, > including KE. KE is detectable, has location, occupies space, and we > can calculate its energy. "Gee, lets call everything PE. Look at that > comet moving across the sky. Gosh, that's potential energy, therefore > lets call it potential energy." > > Paul Lowrance > Why stop there? Lets call everything energy. ...I ate energy for lunch. ...Your energy needs fixing. ...Remember to take the energy for a walk! ...He dove into the energy. ...Why not sell your labour? After all it is just energy. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 12:32:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12KW2D0015396; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:32:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12KW0n3015366; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:32:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:32:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=j8o7rtyyr3o4WGxoitbwHs1J2nUYrMT63Rw/uh3bvNJx/OLXCvdDlprW0+AZ3Z3wg2yCHkSiXpzNQHyBhEoajqFcDr0OX7UxAJlzzJGs1GjQDiUCqtKujJb3Vl2KPfLDzrztRJwLJpWIeQHIlE4g0ZRyRsgxKEP7oku8GfgcmCE= Message-ID: <45C39F98.1050605@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:31:20 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> If M-theory were even 1/10 as negative as you feel then the physics >> community has fallen because a great deal of the top physicists around >> the world are working on it. It does indeed predict and seems >> promising, which is why they are spending so much time and money on it. > > > I would call it a church with a lot of power. > e.g. The catholic church spent so much time and money building cathedrals in > the middle ages. > > Harry Silliness. Nearly every great physicist alive appreciates M-theory, from Stephen Hawking to Dr. Michio Kaku. Stephen Hawking said in a recent interview --> February 8, 2006: Question: "What do you think is the greatest unanswered question in modern physics?" Answer by Stephen Hawking: "We think M-theory is the ***ultimate theory*** of the universe, but we understand it only at certain limits, where some quantities are zero or very small. It is as if we had fitted together the edge pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, but we still have a gaping hole in the middle. And of course it may be that we find we have the wrong picture. We have learned to expect the unexpected." Question: "How do you think our everyday life will be affected, if string theory, which is discussed in your book A Briefer History of Time, or the more advanced version of string theory, M-theory, is proven to be true?" Answer by Stephen Hawking: " We already know the laws that govern nature in all but the most extreme conditions, such as the origin of the universe. When we understand string theory, we will know how the universe began. It won't have much effect on how we live, but surely it is important to understand where we come from, and what we can expect to find as we explore the universe." Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 12:38:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12KcFYD018308; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:38:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12KcDoB018283; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:38:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:36:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <45C38688.6090709@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: >> On 2/2/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> If M-theory were even 1/10 as negative as you feel then the physics >>> community has fallen because a great deal of the top physicists around >>> the world are working on it. It does indeed predict and seems >>> promising, which is why they are spending so much time and money on it. >> >> Naaa. It's because Lisa Randall is working on it: >> >> http://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/randall.html >> >> And her sister is why so many people are studying computers: >> >> http://www.math.gatech.edu/~randall/ > > > > I'd hardly consider her the reason. There are far too many bigger fish > working on M-theory than Lisa Randall. Umm, Ed Witten for one, lol. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > Keeping the universe neat and tidy is women's work. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 12:57:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12KvjmR028929; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:57:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12Kvhxu028906; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:57:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:57:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bGf9QPP596tRUhWWREqBSbW2MMbCVERPtdbLdew0NfRnAC8+z+bt/Ju4pTKVy97jMwuY1dC1BNLIKjiKyM5h4UGkwTpLasEmxNpw9xX9cMx0UbI0f+pdR9/Q8r37jXhXNo0tOMMklQKrxvyGpsB4ozP9nO0msWqabkrHBzaWlPE= Message-ID: <45C3A5A0.5020808@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:57:04 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Paul, >>> >>> 1/ If you think the potential vs potential energy remark was just >> humor, you are showing great ignorance. Look up the definition of >> voltage = electric potential: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential >>> >>> "Electric potential is the potential energy per unit of charge >> associated with a static (time-invariant) electric field, also called >> the electrostatic potential, typically measured in volts." >>> and then tell me if you click "voltage" and delete it too :) >>> >>> 2/ You seem to be eluding my question wrt the formulation of KE in >> terms of work (below). Click "everything that doesn't fit" and delete it? >>> Michel >> >> >> This is too funny. I keep telling you standard physics has no idea, >> which is why they call it PE. Again, E-field is detectable, has >> location, occupies space, and we can calculate its energy. If one >> considers E-fields as PE then they truly believe everything is PE, >> including KE. KE is detectable, has location, occupies space, and we >> can calculate its energy. "Gee, lets call everything PE. Look at that >> comet moving across the sky. Gosh, that's potential energy, therefore >> lets call it potential energy." >> >> Paul Lowrance >> > > Why stop there? Lets call everything energy. > > ...I ate energy for lunch. > > ...Your energy needs fixing. > > ...Remember to take the energy for a walk! > > ...He dove into the energy. > > ...Why not sell your labour? After all it is just energy. Because it's more complex than that. You call a burrito to identify the food. The E-field is no more PE than a piece of mass moving at a certain velocity. If one is referring to an E-field then call it energy, and if you want to identify it then call it what it is, an E-field. Present POV of PE in the physics community is shaky at best. Here are a few quotes --> Michel wrote, "We can't tell how much intrinsic PE there is in the weight because we don't know on which planet we are going to let it fall, agreed?" Michel wrote, "I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a property of the universe rather than of an object." The point of this thread is that PE should not be view as a special case or property of the universe. Two attracted electro-magnets accelerating toward each other perfectly demonstrates such a concept. It requires energy to accelerate such objects, and such energy is moved from the source that sustains the electro-magnets current. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 13:05:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12L5Qp4002922; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:05:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12L5PId002895; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:05:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:05:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=cSJerOEpd9TZCqQhLXoLgJ9IFDeYf12nWhSKPtrpdwYumfq2H42txozhOl8dq6UP; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <17175775.1170450323424.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:05:23 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8481f5b1090ab7cb739e5edba94fbf8c03ae9702e2e88ebc7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.32 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Feb 2, 2007 12:28 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 2 Feb 07 Washington, DC 1. THE LIMITS OF GROWTH: IT'S TIME TO REVISIT THE 1972 CLASSIC. The somber warnings of Dennis Meadows and his colleagues at MIT, 35 years ago, were spot on. Depletion of Earth's resources and destruction of the environment, Meadows warned, will lead to disaster unless nations of the world adopt policies of austerity and population control. Technological optimists were horrified by this negative thinking. Their alternative was "The High Frontier," a 1976 book by Gerard K. O'Neill of Princeton, calling for building "islands in space" to offload excess population. Reality is the ISS. It houses 3 Earthlings at a cost of $100B. 2. PARIS: THE IPCC REPORT ISSUED TODAY IS ALREADY OUT OF DATE. Even as 600 climate scientists were meeting this week to update the IPCC report on climate, the Zurich-based World Glacier Monitoring Service reported that the rate of mountain glacier melt is accelerating. The IPCC report, however, does not incorporate data published after 2005. The IPCC report puts the probability at 90% that human activity is responsible for the observed warming, up from 66% in 2001. It's higher. The report refrains from recommending what actions governments should take. 3. WASHINGTON: THE ADMINISTRATION SUPPRESSES CLIMATE FINDINGS. On Tuesday, the House Oversight Committee, Chaired by Henry Waxman (D-CA), looked into accusations that the administration interfered in federal climate research. Bipartisan criticism of the White House stance on climate was prompted by a survey conducted by the Union of Concerned Scientists, together with the Government Accountability Project, which turned up hundreds of government climate scientists who had experienced political interference in communicating their findings. Whenever WN cites a Union of Concerned Scientists report, there are complaints that UCS is an advocacy group, and so it is. WN would prefer that the government police itself. While we're waiting, WN will continue to look to UCS to give us the facts. They do it very well. 4. IRVING, TEXAS: EXXON MOBIL REPORTS RECORD PROFIT FOR 2006. Yesterday, Exxon Mobil announced 2006 profits of $40 billion, its second consecutive annual record. It's also the largest profit ever reported by an American company. If you're that profitable, you can bribe journalist to downplay the importance of global warming, http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN07/wn010507.html . 5. THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE: WHY DOESN'T THE WORLD LIMIT OPULATION? Any program that conserves energy, or protects the environment, or feeds the hungry, or cures disease, will be quickly overtaken by population growth. Simple greed is certainly a factor in opposing population limits, but the fundamental obstacle is fundamental religion. "Be fruitful and multiply," Genesis 1:28, is seen by many as a commandment. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 14:18:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12MIngL027013; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:18:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12MIlCs026997; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:18:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:18:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:17:45 -0600 Message-ID: <023001c74718$01f1f5d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdHDrG2aLcPIkRPSwqDc45+eZT2fwAB4bbQ In-Reply-To: <17175775.1170450323424.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > 2. PARIS: THE IPCC REPORT ISSUED TODAY IS ALREADY OUT OF DATE. Out of date? It is incomplete to begin with. Why isn't there any mention of the fact that every planet in the solar system, along with their moons, are undergoing rapid climate change along with the Earth? I think people need to know just how far reaching human burning of fossil fuel is. Not only are we destroying our own planet, but every other planet in the solar system. What's even more surprising is that there is no mention of the impending slaughter of humans. Just 11,500 years ago a seemingly natural climate change occurred, which wiped out the Wooly Mammoths, Saber Toothed Tigers, Giant Ground Sloths, Giant Beavers, and dozens of other species. Not only that, but 400 years ago the Earth cooled considerably from a greenhouse state and is known as the Maunder Minimum. Human greenhouse gases are not only extending to the outer reaches of the solar system, they are also going back in time to wipe out species, which we have never even seen. This is getting way out of hand and something needs to be done about it. Also, greenhouse gases are responsible for the increase in reported alien abductions and the addiction to Harry Potter novels. Of course, we all know George Bush is the cause of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, and the IPCC didn't mention anything about that, either. > 3. WASHINGTON: THE ADMINISTRATION SUPPRESSES CLIMATE FINDINGS. Oh, I see, you caught that one, too? God forbid anybody ever question the quacks at IPCC. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 14:54:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l12Msncx018191; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:54:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l12Msl2w018173; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:54:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:54:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070202225453.CF64B8B315@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:54:53 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Status: O X-Status: I'm trying to figure out how a couple of guys who are clearly better educated, and probably a lot smarter than I, can have gone so far wrong. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > Posted earlier: >> This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs. http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html >> If the force around a positively charged sphere is reduced by >> cladding it with a high dielectric constant material (K) > It won't be, not unless the cladding has a net charge. The > dielectric or other properties of the cladding aren't relevant > to its ability to "shield" something, which can be done only > by canceling the original field. (There's no such thing as a > "true" electric shield, of course. At least according to > conventional theory, the E field obeys the law of > superposition,and you can't actually "block" it; you can > only cancel it.) > If you surround a charged sphere with any spherically > symmetric material which does not, itself, carry a net charge, > the result will be no change in the external field (outside > the cladding) and no change in the net force acting on the > system (sphere+cladding) due to an external field. This is demonstrably not the case. If a polar dielectric is interposed between a charged conductor and a detector, the strength of the field will drop substantially, especially if the dielectric has a high K. Work is done by aligning the molecular dipoles with the result that the voltage drops while the coulombs increase. When the dielectric is removed the voltage increases again. As a practical matter, you can feel the strong attraction between the polar dielectric and the charged conductor, and as the dielectric approaches the charged object the attractive force between the charged conductor and other objects which may have been attracted initially is noticeably diminished. If you have an electrostatic voltmeter, the voltage drops as the dielectric approaches the charged conductor. This effect is not observed if the interposed insulator is a non-polar material, polyethylene for example. For a really unequivocal demonstration, you want a material with K > 100. Glass works, but its dielectric constant is only about 7. You'd like to use barium titanate, but a free-standing plate of this stuff is almost impossible to come by. I like to use the T.T. Brown standby, litharge in epoxy, K = approx 700. > If it did you could close the cladding, move a bit, open the > cladding, move back, close the cladding, and so forth, and > voila, you have a PMM. With uncharged cladding opening and > closing the cladding (by sliding it) should require > insignificant work. Well, no. The only time lateral transposition of the dielectric would require no work would be if the charged object was standing alone in a universe of no other charged or conductive objects. One of the old classic electrostatic demonstrations is the drawing in of a dielectric sheet between the plates of a charged air gap capacitor. Work in, work out. In Fred's proposed setup, however, as there would be a continous supply of current provided by the Van de Graaff generators, the voltage at the surface of the dielectric covered sphere would eventually be the same as a the three outlying bare metal spheres. It would just take longer to get there. A better solution would be to expel the positive charge at the juncture of the three Van de Graaff generators with a cluster of needle points, perhaps assisting the the hoped- for lift with an ion wind. Fred wrote: > Force = 1/K * 1/4(pi)eo * q* Q/R^2 > Hence a 3-point craft with a cladded positive center sphere > and three exposed negative spheres should repel the earth's > excess negative charge up to an altitude that requires charge > reversal for getting past the ionosphere. There is a fundamental problem with this idea. While the earth has a net negative charge of say, one megajoule, the tiny fraction of a joule per square meter just won't supply the repulsive force you need unless your Van de Graaff spacecraft is very large and already elevated. The earth is is quite conductive, especially at the voltages we are talking about here. Therefore, an object with a strong negative charge will charge the earth locally positive by induction and your spheres will be strongly attracted to the earth, not repelled. The earth's negative field will have been slightly shifted to the opposite side of the world. If you want to play around with a propulsive force, I suggest you try some Brown-Biefeld experiments. I've had numerous positive results, but haven't written about them because I'm not sure I've eliminated all the artifacts such as ion wind. Charge on. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 18:12:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l132CMW1031584; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:12:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l132CKo6031572; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:12:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:12:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <060e01c74738$b9ccb5d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20070202225453.CF64B8B315@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 03:11:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l132CIFG031552 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Foster" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:54 PM Subject: [Vo]: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics ... > Therefore, an object with a strong negative charge will charge > the earth locally positive by induction and your spheres will > be strongly attracted to the earth, not repelled. The earth's > negative field will have been slightly shifted to the opposite > side of the world. I pointed this out earlier. Maybe if a third person comes up with the same remark it will become true? ;-) > If you want to play around with a propulsive force, I suggest > you try some Brown-Biefeld experiments. I've had numerous > positive results, but haven't written about them because I'm > not sure I've eliminated all the artifacts such as ion wind. You'll have a hard time eliminating such artifacts since BB devices are nothing but ion wind thrusters (aka ionocrafts or lifters or EHD thrusters), whose remarkably simple thrust equation has been known for decades: F=i*d/mu where i is current, d distance between electrodes and mu is ion mobility about 2E-4 for air ions in STP air, all in SI. Air discharge devices are nothing but ion wind simply because their thrust never gets larger than the above formula. But it can get lower if counteremission is occurring, or if the ions fan out as in the record breaking trough grid thruster I invented for Blazelabs (neither in Texas nor Canada ;) in 2004. In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per unit area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the expense of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 18:40:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l132e8rc030628; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:40:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l132e6YC030606; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:40:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070203024002.2674A8A17E@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:40:02 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: > There is a fundamental problem with this idea. While the earth > has a net negative charge of say, one megajoule, the tiny > fraction of a joule per square meter just won't supply the > repulsive force you need unless your Van de Graaff spacecraft > is very large and already elevated. The earth is is quite > conductive, especially at the voltages we are talking about here. > Therefore, an object with a strong negative charge will charge > the earth locally positive by induction and your spheres will > be strongly attracted to the earth, not repelled. The earth's > negative field will have been slightly shifted to the opposite > side of the world. I meant coulombs, not joules. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 18:56:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l132tx2H004332; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:55:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l132twZY004308; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:55:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c7473e$d28ba4e0$cf027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:55:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C7470C.870156A0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO}: Barker & Barium Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C7470C.870156A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C7470C.8702DD40" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C7470C.8702DD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. My hope with this collection of long-winded posts is to encourage a=20 range of experiments with variants of Barker - applied to VTA-MRA=20 devices, esp. since it is easy to do. Hopefully a few Aggies or Owls=20 under Richard's tutelage will jump into the fray, despite the fact that=20 both the Sweet VTA and McClain/Wootan MRA are viewed skeptically today=20 (even on Vo) as devices which were little more than measurement error.=20 Maybe so.... or maybe they were not technically OU but did work on=20 occasion as LENR devices . Howdy Jones, been following this thread with interest and passing it along to certain = " lost soul undergrads at both Aggieland and the home of the Horned = Frogs and Owls. Alas! Senior undergrads in engineering school spend most = of their time in labs. Girls learn fast that engineering students spend = all their time with studies so the girls flock to business school = types.. until about a month before the engineering students graduate.... = and shazzaam! , the graduate engineering student transforms into a hunk = in the girls eyes.. hmmm. Some of the girls are smart and begin looking early, Makes mentoring a = chore. Surprisingly, often times when I pass on one of Jones' posts to = an undergrad, it gets passed on to others and even a few grad students = view them.. keep those cards and letters flowing , cuz Aggies and Owls = need the inspiration.. hehe.. they ask.. who is this guy and how old is = he ? I think one of the female senior engineering undergrads has been = studying one of your posts as an adjunct to her senior project . I''ll = Keep you posted on this. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C7470C.8702DD40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..

My hope with this collection of long-winded posts is to encourage a =
range=20 of experiments with variants of Barker - applied to VTA-MRA
devices, = esp.=20 since it is easy to do. Hopefully a few Aggies or Owls
under = Richard's=20 tutelage will jump into the fray, despite the fact that
both the = Sweet VTA=20 and McClain/Wootan MRA are viewed skeptically today
(even on Vo) as = devices=20 which were little more than measurement error.
Maybe so.... or maybe = they=20 were not technically OU but did work on
occasion as LENR devices=20 <g>.

Howdy Jones,

been following this thread with interest and passing it along to = certain "=20 lost soul undergrads at both Aggieland and the home of the Horned Frogs=20 and Owls. Alas! Senior undergrads in engineering school spend most = of their=20 time in labs. Girls learn fast that engineering students spend all their = time=20 with studies so the girls flock to business school types.. until about a = month=20 before the engineering students graduate.... and shazzaam! , the = graduate=20 engineering student transforms into a  hunk in the girls eyes.. = hmmm.

Some of the girls are smart and begin looking early, Makes mentoring = a chore.=20 Surprisingly, often times when I pass on one of Jones' posts to an=20 undergrad, it gets passed on to others and even a few grad students view = them..=20 keep those cards and letters flowing , cuz Aggies and Owls need the=20 inspiration.. hehe.. they ask.. who is this guy and how old is he ? I = think one=20 of the female senior engineering undergrads has been studying one = of your=20 posts as an adjunct to her senior project . I''ll Keep you = posted on=20 this.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C7470C.8702DD40-- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C7470C.870156A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001401c7473e$d1897720$cf027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C7470C.870156A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 19:16:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l133Fon5019016; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:15:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l133FmZr018993; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:15:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:15:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:13:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-reply-to: <060e01c74738$b9ccb5d0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has > beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per unit > area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. > Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the expense > of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. > > http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp > > Michel > Can ion wind explain this?: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis Daran, there experiment proves definitely that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum armature towards the virtual armature generated by the wires." This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 20:02:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1342LMh009896; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:02:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1342JtI009887; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:02:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:02:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C40946.1020408@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:02:14 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics References: <20070202225453.CF64B8B315@xprdmxin.myway.com> In-Reply-To: <20070202225453.CF64B8B315@xprdmxin.myway.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > > I'm trying to figure out how a couple of guys who are clearly > better educated, and probably a lot smarter than I, can have > gone so far wrong. OK it's time to point out something trivial. divergence(E) = 4 pi rho (in cgs units) E is the "real" electric field (not the "auxiliary" field) and "rho" is the actual charge density (including both mobile and fixed charges in conductors, insulators, dielectrics, and what have you). That means that for any spherically symmetric distribution of charge, with center at O, the field at any point P depends _ONLY_ on the total quantity of charge closer to O than point P. That's all. You can use any insulator you like, and if it's also spherically symmetric, it won't affect the field outside ... unless it carries a net charge. Maxwell's equations are generally well tested in the realm of electrostatics. I'm afraid that, throughout the following, there's been some confusion between voltage and field strength. "Lift" -- force on the apparatus -- has to do with field strength, not voltage. Details follow. > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Frederick Sparber wrote: >> Posted earlier: > >>> This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs. > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > >>> If the force around a positively charged sphere is reduced by >>> cladding it with a high dielectric constant material (K) > > >> It won't be, not unless the cladding has a net charge. The >> dielectric or other properties of the cladding aren't relevant >> to its ability to "shield" something, which can be done only >> by canceling the original field. (There's no such thing as a >> "true" electric shield, of course. At least according to >> conventional theory, the E field obeys the law of >> superposition,and you can't actually "block" it; you can >> only cancel it.) > >> If you surround a charged sphere with any spherically >> symmetric material which does not, itself, carry a net charge, >> the result will be no change in the external field (outside >> the cladding) and no change in the net force acting on the >> system (sphere+cladding) due to an external field. > > This is demonstrably not the case. If a polar dielectric is > interposed between a charged conductor and a detector, What, exactly, is the detector detecting? Field strength, or _voltage_? (And what /shape/ is the dielectric? Large flat sheet, or something else?) Note well: Voltage and electric field strength are different properties. The voltage is the path integral of the electric field; the electric field is the gradient of the voltage; the field strength is the magnitude of the electric field. Inside a polar dielectric in a strong field there is a reverse field due to the dipoles in the material, which _certainly_ affects the voltage along a path which runs through the dielectric. If you drop a charged particle "down" the field to the dielectric, through a tiny hole in the dielectric, and on its way, it will speed up until it gets to the dielectric, slow down during its passage through the tunnel, and then start speeding up again on the other side. The _voltage_ is the net energy gain of the particle over the whole path, and during its traversal of the dielectric it loses energy, due to the reverse field inside. Hence, the voltage is lower with the dielectric in place. The _field strength_ is how fast the particle accelerates at any particular point on the path. In other words, field strength equates to force -- and "lift" is upward-directed "force". > the > strength of the field will drop substantially, Only _inside_ the dielectric! > especially if > the dielectric has a high K. Work is done by aligning the > molecular dipoles with the result that the voltage drops while > the coulombs increase. When the dielectric is removed the > voltage increases again. You've said two different things here: "the strength of the field will drop", and "the voltage drops". The dielectric will _certainly_ affect the voltage, just as interposing a charged parallel plate capacitor would affect the voltage (which would reduce it by the voltage to which the capacitor had been charged). As an aside, that is how a polar dielectric acts to increase the capacity of a parallel plate capacitor versus using an air dielectric: for any particular net charge on the plates, interposing it reduces the voltage between the plates; consequently the ratio of charge to voltage increases. What it won't do, however, _if_ it's a large flat sheet and the field is perpendicular to it (and it carries no net charge), is have a significant effect on the electric field on either side of it ... any more than a large parallel plate capacitor would. If you disagree please explain either (a) how a polar dielectric in an E field differs in its field from a charged capacitor or (b) how either one of them has a large effect on the field outside the "plates". > > As a practical matter, you can feel the strong attraction > between the polar dielectric and the charged conductor, It's got a dipole field, even though its monopole field in the area near the middle of either surface is insignificant. The thicker it is, the stronger the dipole field. > and > as the dielectric approaches the charged object the attractive > force between the charged conductor and other objects which > may have been attracted initially is noticeably diminished. > If you have an electrostatic voltmeter, the voltage drops > as the dielectric approaches the charged conductor. As I already said, it affects the voltage. That was never at issue. > > This effect is not observed if the interposed insulator is a > non-polar material, polyethylene for example. For a really > unequivocal demonstration, you want a material with K > 100. > Glass works, but its dielectric constant is only about 7. > You'd like to use barium titanate, but a free-standing plate > of this stuff is almost impossible to come by. I like to use > the T.T. Brown standby, litharge in epoxy, K = approx 700. > >> If it did you could close the cladding, move a bit, open the >> cladding, move back, close the cladding, and so forth, and >> voila, you have a PMM. With uncharged cladding opening and >> closing the cladding (by sliding it) should require >> insignificant work. > > Well, no. The only time lateral transposition of the > dielectric would require no work would be if the charged > object was standing alone in a universe of no other charged > or conductive objects. You're right; it would be pulled across the gap; I overlooked that. But the force would be independent of the motion, so you could, in principle, regain the energy you expend to open the shield when it's closed again, for re-use at the next opening; clever use of springs might do the job. > One of the old classic electrostatic > demonstrations is the drawing in of a dielectric sheet > between the plates of a charged air gap capacitor. Work in, > work out. If it's "drawn in", then it's energy gain in, work out. > > In Fred's proposed setup, however, as there would be a > continous supply of current provided by the Van de Graaff > generators, the voltage at the surface of the dielectric > covered sphere would eventually be the same as a the three > outlying bare metal spheres. It would just take longer to > get there. > > A better solution would be to expel the positive charge at > the juncture of the three Van de Graaff generators with a > cluster of needle points, perhaps assisting the the hoped- > for lift with an ion wind. Which would be the /only/ lift, if the overall apparatus has no net charge. > > Fred wrote: > >> Force = 1/K * 1/4(pi)eo * q* Q/R^2 > > >> Hence a 3-point craft with a cladded positive center sphere >> and three exposed negative spheres should repel the earth's >> excess negative charge up to an altitude that requires charge >> reversal for getting past the ionosphere. > > There is a fundamental problem with this idea. While the earth > has a net negative charge of say, one megajoule, the tiny > fraction of a joule per square meter just won't supply the > repulsive force you need unless your Van de Graaff spacecraft > is very large and already elevated. The earth is is quite > conductive, especially at the voltages we are talking about here. > Therefore, an object with a strong negative charge will charge > the earth locally positive by induction and your spheres will > be strongly attracted to the earth, not repelled. The earth's > negative field will have been slightly shifted to the opposite > side of the world. Yes, for sure -- the Earth, on this scale and with static charges, can be viewed as a conductor, and in response to a charge held near it, it produces the effect of an "image charge" of opposite polarity equidistant from the surface of the Earth (but underground). > > If you want to play around with a propulsive force, I suggest > you try some Brown-Biefeld experiments. I've had numerous > positive results, but haven't written about them because I'm > not sure I've eliminated all the artifacts such as ion wind. > > Charge on. > > M. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 20:16:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l134Ervf025996; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:14:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l134ECH5025785; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:14:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:14:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C40C11.7020007@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:14:09 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has >> beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per unit >> area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. >> Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the expense >> of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. >> >> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp >> >> Michel >> > > > > Can ion wind explain this?: > > http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm > > "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis > Daran, there experiment proves definitely > that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum > armature towards the virtual armature generated > by the wires." If so, then the thing could be put in a large box closed on all sides, the whole thing placed on a scale, and when the lifter takes off, the box will get lighter. (Since the things operate indoors they can obviously operate inside a box!) Simple enough check -- much simpler than watching how the tubes shift around and trying to conclude anything from that. A farmer has a truck full of chickens. Truck weighs 1/2 ton empty, and the birds weigh an additional 1/4 ton; 3/4 ton total. He comes to a bridge with a 1/2 ton weight limit. Oh, oh -- what to do... He gets out of the truck, finds a stick, and whacks the side of the truck. The chickens all fly into the air inside the truck (so these are chickens that can fly ... don't get hung up on the details). While they're still flying around inside the truck, he drives over the bridge. Does this work? > > This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 20:30:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l134UQqm022562; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l134UODi022549; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:30:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:30:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:28:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-reply-to: <45C40C11.7020007@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has >>> beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per >>> unit >>> area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. >>> Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the >>> expense >>> of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. >>> >>> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp >>> >>> Michel >>> >> >> >> >> Can ion wind explain this?: >> >> http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm >> >> "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis >> Daran, there experiment proves definitely >> that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum >> armature towards the virtual armature generated >> by the wires." > > If so, then the thing could be put in a large box closed on all sides, > the whole thing placed on a scale, and when the lifter takes off, the > box will get lighter. (Since the things operate indoors they can > obviously operate inside a box!) > > Simple enough check -- much simpler than watching how the tubes shift > around and trying to conclude anything from that. Great idea. I am not aware of this being tried. > A farmer has a truck full of chickens. Truck weighs 1/2 ton empty, and > the birds weigh an additional 1/4 ton; 3/4 ton total. He comes to a > bridge with a 1/2 ton weight limit. Oh, oh -- what to do... He gets out > of the truck, finds a stick, and whacks the side of the truck. The > chickens all fly into the air inside the truck (so these are chickens > that can fly ... don't get hung up on the details). While they're still > flying around inside the truck, he drives over the bridge. > > Does this work? This is not a good analogy. It is like having a pool water in a sealed container. If you heat the container the water turns into a vapour but the total weight is the same. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 06:08:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l13E85EA009280; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:08:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l13E82qK009265; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:08:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:08:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <066401c7479c$b3ff45f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:07:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l13E80tO009239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sure Harry it's ion wind. Naudin's comment, athough somewhat misleading, is correct too. The collector (bottom negative armature) is indeed attracted upwards to the "parachuting" positive ion cloud _generated by_ the corona wire (the ion cloud, dragging ambient air along, is pulled downwards with an equal and opposite force, hence the wind). This upwards pull constitutes most of the lift, because most of the positive charge (whose total value is equal and opposite to the collector's negative charge due to charge conservation) is in the air, so the wire itself carries a comparatively small positive charge, so it's contribution to the lift (upwards push from the positive ion cloud below) is comparatively small. Same reasoning holds if you reverse polarity, in all cases you get thrust in the direction from the collector to the wire (not necessarily upwards BTW). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:13 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has >> beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per unit >> area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. >> Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the expense >> of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. >> >> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp >> >> Michel >> > > > > Can ion wind explain this?: > > http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm > > "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis > Daran, there experiment proves definitely > that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum > armature towards the virtual armature generated > by the wires." > > This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 06:50:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l13EoX4k029621; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:50:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l13EoSK5029579; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:50:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:50:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <067101c747a2$a0b885f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <066401c7479c$b3ff45f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:50:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l13EoMO8029528 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW I also have an untried design for an autonomous lifter (designed to take off vertically and hover for a few mn while carrying it's own power supply, would be a world first if it works), if anyone is interested in experimenting it you're welcome. Be warned though that it requires thousands of euros worth of batteries (about 5 last time I looked 3 years ago), the rest of the craft costing virtually nothing except time and craftsmanship (a lot of each :). No HV power supply design experience required, the HVPS consisting bruteforcely in a series string of about 1200 tiny lithium-polymer batteries :))) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > Sure Harry it's ion wind. Naudin's comment, athough somewhat misleading, is correct too. The collector (bottom negative armature) is indeed attracted upwards to the "parachuting" positive ion cloud _generated by_ the corona wire (the ion cloud, dragging ambient air along, is pulled downwards with an equal and opposite force, hence the wind). This upwards pull constitutes most of the lift, because most of the positive charge (whose total value is equal and opposite to the collector's negative charge due to charge conservation) is in the air, so the wire itself carries a comparatively small positive charge, so it's contribution to the lift (upwards push from the positive ion cloud below) is comparatively small. > > Same reasoning holds if you reverse polarity, in all cases you get thrust in the direction from the collector to the wire (not necessarily upwards BTW). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has >>> beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per unit >>> area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. >>> Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the expense >>> of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. >>> >>> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp >>> >>> Michel >>> >> >> >> >> Can ion wind explain this?: >> >> http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm >> >> "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis >> Daran, there experiment proves definitely >> that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum >> armature towards the virtual armature generated >> by the wires." >> >> This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 09:26:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l13HQa2G015507; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:26:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l13HQXU2015431; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:26:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:26:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:28:30 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <-Kf6MC.A.1wD.JXMxFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mechanical prototyping Status: O X-Status: I'm looking for what amounts to a high quality erector set for performing mechanical experiments with magnets, gyroscopes, etc. Where can I get kits like shown on the Steorn videos or seen in chem labs to hold up various items in arbitrary positions, as well as bearings, pulleys, etc. Thanks, Hoyt Stearns From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 17:03:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1413P7B012899; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:03:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1413Mbq012858; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:03:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:03:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:01:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-reply-to: <066401c7479c$b3ff45f0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Sure Harry it's ion wind. Naudin's comment, athough somewhat misleading, is > correct too. The collector (bottom negative armature) is indeed attracted > upwards to the "parachuting" positive ion cloud _generated by_ the corona wire > (the ion cloud, dragging ambient air along, is pulled downwards with an equal > and opposite force, hence the wind). This upwards pull constitutes most of the > lift, because most of the positive charge (whose total value is equal and > opposite to the collector's negative charge due to charge conservation) is in > the air, so the wire itself carries a comparatively small positive charge, so > it's contribution to the lift (upwards push from the positive ion cloud below) > is comparatively small. > > Same reasoning holds if you reverse polarity, in all cases you get thrust in > the direction from the collector to the wire (not necessarily upwards BTW). > > Michel For sake of argument assume there is no ion wind. What you have are two oppositely charged bodies where one (the wire) is above the other (the tube). Each will be attracted to the other. The tube will accelerate upwards and the wire will accelerate downwards. If the attractive forces are opposite AND equal the lifter will not take off, but since tube has some freedom to move it will rise until it is stopped by the cross member. However, if these forces are opposite but not equal the lifter will either want to ascend or descend depending on the polarity. On the other hand if an ion wind is the cause of this net force then it should be possible to reduce the net force by inserting a horizontal neutral (e.g. paper) shield in the gap between the wire and the tube. This shield would be fixed to the struts of the lifter. Harry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has >>> beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per >>> unit >>> area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. >>> Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the >>> expense >>> of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. >>> >>> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp >>> >>> Michel >>> >> >> >> >> Can ion wind explain this?: >> >> http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm >> >> "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis >> Daran, there experiment proves definitely >> that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum >> armature towards the virtual armature generated >> by the wires." >> >> This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 23:17:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l147HaqJ005255; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:17:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l147HUEJ005224; Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:17:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:17:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <086301c7482c$86e4f020$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 08:17:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l147HSZo005207 Resent-Message-ID: <87thJD.A.kRB.KiYxFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:01 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Sure Harry it's ion wind. Naudin's comment, athough somewhat misleading, is >> correct too. The collector (bottom negative armature) is indeed attracted >> upwards to the "parachuting" positive ion cloud _generated by_ the corona wire >> (the ion cloud, dragging ambient air along, is pulled downwards with an equal >> and opposite force, hence the wind). This upwards pull constitutes most of the >> lift, because most of the positive charge (whose total value is equal and >> opposite to the collector's negative charge due to charge conservation) is in >> the air, so the wire itself carries a comparatively small positive charge, so >> it's contribution to the lift (upwards push from the positive ion cloud below) >> is comparatively small. >> >> Same reasoning holds if you reverse polarity, in all cases you get thrust in >> the direction from the collector to the wire (not necessarily upwards BTW). >> >> Michel > > > > For sake of argument assume there is no ion wind. What you have > are two oppositely charged bodies where one (the wire) is above the other > (the tube). Each will be attracted to the other. The tube will accelerate > upwards and the wire will accelerate downwards. If the attractive forces are > opposite AND equal the lifter will not take off, but since tube has some > freedom to move it will rise until it is stopped by the cross member. If the force is sufficient, yes. > However, if these forces are opposite but not equal the lifter will either > want to ascend or descend depending on the polarity. If there is no ion wind there are no positive charges in the air so they are all on the wire, so the forces are necessarily equal. The thing becomes an ordinary capacitor, it doesn't fly. > On the other hand if an ion wind is the cause of this net force then it > should be possible to reduce the net force by inserting a horizontal neutral > (e.g. paper) shield in the gap between the wire and the tube. This shield > would be fixed to the struts of the lifter. Sure, but why reduce the net force? Michel > Harry > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics >> >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>> In spite of, or rather thanks to the ion fan out feature, this design has >>>> beaten as I had expected all other lifter designs in terms of thrust per >>>> unit >>>> area, by a comfortable margin (3 times that of a standard lifter e.g. >>>> Naudin's, 1.5 times that of a flat grid De Seversky ionocraft), at the >>>> expense >>>> of a 40% lower thrust to power ratio. >>>> >>>> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp06.asp >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Can ion wind explain this?: >>> >>> http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/tubular/index.htm >>> >>> "Note from Jean- Louis Naudin : Congratulations to Greg Vizza and to Francis >>> Daran, there experiment proves definitely >>> that the main Lifter thrust is the result of an upward force of the aluminum >>> armature towards the virtual armature generated >>> by the wires." >>> >>> This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. >>> >>> Harry >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 07:52:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14FqXW7012380; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:52:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14FqTjf012353; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:52:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:52:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=rBjH4JC1RtgbzEAZ+Ie79ZMLp2M1+ix7ep9CWIGJnwVayvgSGBfNeXCr7ECLlgcwAl99Rsw3shv4nh4NYfimaw+yvxM3d792cAll4gwQiDvoSNWwMeYLif7nvRfMLXjVW3cbgubNhBLiS4aL88PsGHLDZRqxT3D1py/2br6iet0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:52:28 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <200702022254.l12MsutV018255@ultra6.eskimo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35450_16912238.1170604348364" References: <200702022254.l12MsutV018255@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_35450_16912238.1170604348364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., General post: Open question set: NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair thinking and the like. (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? (B) Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY type and useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion to electric energy. amps and volts required. (C) Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory] I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!! Herma john On 2/2/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com < vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com> wrote: > > Content-Type: text/plain > > vortex-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 50 > > Today's Topics: > Re: [Vo]: electricity question [ "Michel Jullian" ] > ------=_Part_35450_16912238.1170604348364 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
 
Dear Vo.,
 
  General post:
 
   Open question set:
 
   NB:  This is intended to address real world science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer.
 
  This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair
thinking and the like.
 
   (A)  Can any one give examples of monopoles?
 
   (B)  Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting
experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY
type and  useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion
to electric energy.  amps and volts required.
 
   (C)  Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory]
 
         I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone
 
  I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!!
Herma john
   


 
On 2/2/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com <vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com > wrote:
Content-Type: text/plain

vortex-digest Digest                            Volume 2007 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:
Re: [Vo]: electricity question        [ "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com> ]
------=_Part_35450_16912238.1170604348364-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 10:57:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14IvYCD004215; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:57:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14IvWXs004196; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:57:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:57:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <094e01c7488e$51a0b130$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <200702022254.l12MsutV018255@ultra6.eskimo.com> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:57:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l14IvRBo004140 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Status: O X-Status: Saw my name at the bottom of your post so I feel a bit responsible for your distress. (A) e.g. an electric monopole is a single charge: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ElectricMonopole.html as opposed to an electric dipole: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ElectricDipole.html which consists in two equal and opposite charges. There are also acoustic monopoles and dipoles. But there are no magnetic monopoles in nature (N or S alone), just dipoles. (B) and (C) could you be more specific? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "john herman" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 > Dear Vo., > > General post: > > Open question set: > > NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. > Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. > > This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to > armchair > thinking and the like. > > (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? > > (B) Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting > experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY > type and useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion > to electric energy. amps and volts required. > > (C) Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory] > > I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair > alone > > I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!! > Herma john > > > > > On 2/2/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com < > vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com> wrote: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain >> >> vortex-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 50 >> >> Today's Topics: >> Re: [Vo]: electricity question [ "Michel Jullian" ] >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 11:51:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14JpLPl018467; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:51:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14JpICq018450; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:51:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=g8wfXtopvewUOAnPwE8Hry8FVx6zXG1JOQhEG/bpnFznWeIPDnDve5EWtZxfqkdo; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:51:03 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74863.82FBA300" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609a4bf2f3a9cc69c09570ec7185662b7c7a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74863.82FBA300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are calling it right? I have been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not changed. The hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often about the arm chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'. I guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a positive or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up to failure. I'm sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what could be, then it would be done... I have failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, _BUT_ I'm building systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement decrease daily as a result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said 'I know this is not so because the math says so'. Well John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back with candles and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last won. Take care, took guts to make the post. -----Original Message----- From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:52 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Dear Vo., General post: Open question set: NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair thinking and the like. (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? (B) Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY type and useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion to electric energy. amps and volts required. (C) Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory] I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!! Herma john ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74863.82FBA300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You=20 are calling it right?
 
I have=20 been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not changed. = The=20 hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often about the = arm=20 chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'.
 
I=20 guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a = positive=20 or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up to=20 failure.
 
I'm=20 sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what = could be,=20 then it would be done...
 
I have=20 failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, = _BUT_ I'm=20 building systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement decrease = daily as a=20 result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said 'I know this is = not so=20 because the math says so'.
 
Well=20 John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back with = candles=20 and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last=20 won.
 
Take=20 care, took guts to make the post.
-----Original Message-----
From: john herman=20 [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 = 9:52=20 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc:=20 vortex-digest@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest = Digest=20 V2007 #50

 
 
Dear Vo.,
 
  General post:
 
   Open question set:
 
   NB:  This is intended to address real world=20 science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support = answer.
 
  This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as = opposed=20 to armchair
thinking and the like.
 
   (A)  Can any one give examples of = monopoles?
 
   (B)  Will anyone describe real world science = that=20 encompasses supporting
experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of = ANY
type and  useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer = conversion
to electric energy.  amps and volts required.
 
   (C)  Any new work of any type which fits with=20 above...[not theory]
 
         I am sure not = everyone=20 is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone
 
  I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 = YEARS...!!!
Herma john
   


 
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74863.82FBA300-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 12:12:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14KChma016002; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:12:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14KCfLg015987; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:12:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:12:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:10:50 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_HZ8ASBryCq5eu+O+DuNX+A)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <96Jk1D.A.v5D.54jxFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_HZ8ASBryCq5eu+O+DuNX+A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT john herman wrote: Dear Vo., General post: Open question set: NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair thinking and the like. (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? There is a big one right under your feet: The Earth. Harry --Boundary_(ID_HZ8ASBryCq5eu+O+DuNX+A) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 john herman wrote:



Dear Vo.,

 General post:

  Open question set:

  NB:  This is intended to address real world science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer.

 This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair
thinking and the like.

  (A)  Can any one give examples of monopoles?


There is a big one right under your feet: The Earth.

Harry

--Boundary_(ID_HZ8ASBryCq5eu+O+DuNX+A)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 12:52:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14KqJ9b000485; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:52:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14KqHKH000465; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:52:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:50:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-reply-to: <086301c7482c$86e4f020$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> Sure Harry it's ion wind. Naudin's comment, athough somewhat misleading, is >>> correct too. The collector (bottom negative armature) is indeed attracted >>> upwards to the "parachuting" positive ion cloud _generated by_ the corona >>> wire >>> (the ion cloud, dragging ambient air along, is pulled downwards with an >>> equal >>> and opposite force, hence the wind). This upwards pull constitutes most of >>> the >>> lift, because most of the positive charge (whose total value is equal and >>> opposite to the collector's negative charge due to charge conservation) is >>> in >>> the air, so the wire itself carries a comparatively small positive charge, >>> so >>> it's contribution to the lift (upwards push from the positive ion cloud >>> below) >>> is comparatively small. >>> >>> Same reasoning holds if you reverse polarity, in all cases you get thrust in >>> the direction from the collector to the wire (not necessarily upwards BTW). >>> >>> Michel >> >> >> >> For sake of argument assume there is no ion wind. What you have >> are two oppositely charged bodies where one (the wire) is above the other >> (the tube). Each will be attracted to the other. The tube will accelerate >> upwards and the wire will accelerate downwards. If the attractive forces are >> opposite AND equal the lifter will not take off, but since tube has some >> freedom to move it will rise until it is stopped by the cross member. > > If the force is sufficient, yes. > >> However, if these forces are opposite but not equal the lifter will either >> want to ascend or descend depending on the polarity. > > If there is no ion wind there are no positive charges in the air so they are > all on the wire, so the forces are necessarily equal. The thing becomes an > ordinary capacitor, it doesn't fly. > >> On the other hand if an ion wind is the cause of this net force then it >> should be possible to reduce the net force by inserting a horizontal neutral >> (e.g. paper) shield in the gap between the wire and the tube. This shield >> would be fixed to the struts of the lifter. > > Sure, but why reduce the net force? > > Michel This tests the ion wind hypothesis. Is the hypothesis sufficient to explain the motion of the lifter? If the lifter still rises then it is insufficient. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 13:40:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14LeAlQ002187; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:40:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14Le9sM002173; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:40:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:40:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=BcfFxpjKmnIsdpWbcKlvGr4Ei/sSshaPRWBCSdV4Mt9uqTZhgkpkl+oHITvdr+zh4QJi9/vI4MG5e5FbaXDOYbEodPjctwdtuj8G+N9xoR7VxJOr8/wbByj0hLtMw2Rf45rL3UoqJH4b8ffMJrK/y18dehiKjhJUzPs6JO7XR4k= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:40:07 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13321_32939883.1170625207162" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_13321_32939883.1170625207162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > You are calling it right? > > I have been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not > changed. The hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often > about the arm chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'. > I hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science. This means observation and correlation. Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories. Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this together. I guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a > positive or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up > to failure. > Personally I find negative results hard to take so I think 10 times more than experiment. I'd be quite ok with a list that excluded everyone that did no experiments, what use are they? I'm sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what > could be, then it would be done... > I agree, plus the 'math' types will still insist it can't work even when the math says it can. I think the speech about the 'ugly nest of believers' needs to be heard again. I have failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, > _BUT_ I'm building systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement > decrease daily as a result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said > 'I know this is not so because the math says so'. > > Well John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back > with candles and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last > won. > No, actually you've hit on one of the key Free Energy principles, amplified power transfer where 2 coils transfer power through unusual distances and seem to be OU. (despite how you dislike the term) I can assure you that what you achieved with Barium can be achieved with totally different cores (or no core), that's not to say the barium wasn't critical in your experiment, just that it isn't the only thing that can allow a transformer to do that. Take care, took guts to make the post. > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:52 AM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Cc:* vortex-digest@eskimo.com > *Subject:* [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 > > > > Dear Vo., > > General post: > > Open question set: > > NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. > Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. > > This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to > armchair > thinking and the like. > > (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? > > (B) Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses > supporting > experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY > type and useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion > to electric energy. amps and volts required. > > (C) Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory] > > I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or > armchair alone > > I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!! > Herma john > > > > > > ------=_Part_13321_32939883.1170625207162 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific <stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
You are calling it right?
 
I have been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not changed. The hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often about the arm chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'.

I  hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science.
This means observation and correlation.
Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories.
Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this together.

I guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a positive or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up to failure.

Personally I find negative results hard to take so I think 10 times more than experiment.
I'd be quite ok with a list that excluded everyone that did no experiments, what use are they?

I'm sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what could be, then it would be done...

I agree, plus the 'math' types  will still insist it can't work even when the math says it can.
I think the speech about the 'ugly nest of believers' needs to be heard again.

I have failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, _BUT_ I'm building systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement decrease daily as a result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said 'I know this is not so because the math says so'.
 
Well John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back with candles and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last won.

No, actually you've hit on one of the key Free Energy principles, amplified power transfer where 2 coils transfer power through unusual distances and seem to be OU. (despite how you dislike the term)

I can assure you that what you achieved with Barium can be achieved with totally different cores (or no core), that's not to say the barium wasn't critical in your experiment, just that it isn't the only thing that can allow a transformer to do that.

Take care, took guts to make the post.
-----Original Message-----
From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:52 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50

 
 
Dear Vo.,
 
  General post:
 
   Open question set:
 
   NB:  This is intended to address real world science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer.
 
  This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair
thinking and the like.
 
   (A)  Can any one give examples of monopoles?
 
   (B)  Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting
experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY
type and  useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion
to electric energy.  amps and volts required.
 
   (C)  Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory]
 
         I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone
 
  I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!!
Herma john
   


 

------=_Part_13321_32939883.1170625207162-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 15:19:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l14NJX6k022543; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:19:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l14NJVGL022524; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:19:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:19:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:19:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l14NJTbY022501 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the paper so you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high voltages. Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind hypothesis, for thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum. But some people do entertain the doubt on their websites, deliberately or not. What convinced me personnally is the fact that experimental thrusts are equal to what is expected from ion wind theory (the formula I gave earlier on). So any contribution of other effects is minimal at most. Anyway EHD experiments are great fun and easy to do, so by all means experiment and form your own opinion. Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen power supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and hurt a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a meat chopper I was told). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:01 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics >> >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>> Sure Harry it's ion wind. Naudin's comment, athough somewhat misleading, is >>>> correct too. The collector (bottom negative armature) is indeed attracted >>>> upwards to the "parachuting" positive ion cloud _generated by_ the corona >>>> wire >>>> (the ion cloud, dragging ambient air along, is pulled downwards with an >>>> equal >>>> and opposite force, hence the wind). This upwards pull constitutes most of >>>> the >>>> lift, because most of the positive charge (whose total value is equal and >>>> opposite to the collector's negative charge due to charge conservation) is >>>> in >>>> the air, so the wire itself carries a comparatively small positive charge, >>>> so >>>> it's contribution to the lift (upwards push from the positive ion cloud >>>> below) >>>> is comparatively small. >>>> >>>> Same reasoning holds if you reverse polarity, in all cases you get thrust in >>>> the direction from the collector to the wire (not necessarily upwards BTW). >>>> >>>> Michel >>> >>> >>> >>> For sake of argument assume there is no ion wind. What you have >>> are two oppositely charged bodies where one (the wire) is above the other >>> (the tube). Each will be attracted to the other. The tube will accelerate >>> upwards and the wire will accelerate downwards. If the attractive forces are >>> opposite AND equal the lifter will not take off, but since tube has some >>> freedom to move it will rise until it is stopped by the cross member. >> >> If the force is sufficient, yes. >> >>> However, if these forces are opposite but not equal the lifter will either >>> want to ascend or descend depending on the polarity. >> >> If there is no ion wind there are no positive charges in the air so they are >> all on the wire, so the forces are necessarily equal. The thing becomes an >> ordinary capacitor, it doesn't fly. >> >>> On the other hand if an ion wind is the cause of this net force then it >>> should be possible to reduce the net force by inserting a horizontal neutral >>> (e.g. paper) shield in the gap between the wire and the tube. This shield >>> would be fixed to the struts of the lifter. >> >> Sure, but why reduce the net force? >> >> Michel > > This tests the ion wind hypothesis. > Is the hypothesis sufficient to explain > the motion of the lifter? If the lifter > still rises then it is insufficient. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 17:02:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15120NL024653; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:02:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1511swE024626; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:01:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:01:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=F/eaW7HbuKowQEokGoAfRUqeK4/YYulwEI9Mo66z16ksuoaLUKDzrQa29i7AT6aH; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:01:44 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7488E.E95360E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26094f1e3f2bfa3bf7c645bf6b21f9ca2de9387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7488E.E95360E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Berry said; >>I hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science. John, so is this the old 'Chicken and Egg' thing? Maybe I do not understand what you meant, but isn't there two ways of doing things; 1) Idea, (Hypothesis to Theory) to Test? I mean the basic premise, water flows down hill. We collect some water, go to the top of various elevations, release the water. Then we go to various valleys and depressions, release the water and see if it will flow up. Fine, I agree and all is well, unless we have 0 gravity, right? Therefore in this case our findings are only valid under the test conditions and the test frame in which they are performed. So; >> but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science. Is only of value or accurate in the context that a reaction or result exists that can be understood. What is to understanding a technology that has yet to exist outside of arm chair minds? 'Think, Do, Explain', or could it be 'Do, Think and Explain' or is it 'Explain, Think and Do'? >>This means observation and correlation. This is 100% right. But, observe what?, a vision, dream or a 'Real Test Result' in physical measurable results out side of mental vision? >>Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories. Well my simple mind don't see it this way. First, 'Gravity and Magnetism or what ever' are phenomena which are name assignments given to somewhat predictable and duplicate able actions and consequences. Who, where and how can anyone say that because of billions of experiments under a specific set of conditions, insures that those results are fact and carved in the stone of the universe, never to be changed based on the Empirical Results and the Matching Mathematic Treatise? What about multiple dimension's, Multiple Universes' and working under 'Different Sets of Action Consequence'?, Sorry, that has not been proven by experiment, wait, would not these experiments have to be done in all dimension's to insure this fact? Then what if these results show sub or super dimensions where it all changes again. >>Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this together. I agree again 100%, but how does one recognize in vision? I do admit maybe I have it all backwards. I'm a do it, think about it, improve or discard it kind of guy. I am not a thin about it, discard it and never try it because my simple vision says it can not be done. Theory, Thought, Vision, Dreams are primary to advancement, yet you can never be sure water is wet until you actually feel it with that mass that supports your thinking machine. -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:40 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: You are calling it right? I have been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not changed. The hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often about the arm chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'. I hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science. This means observation and correlation. Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories. Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this together. I guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a positive or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up to failure. Personally I find negative results hard to take so I think 10 times more than experiment. I'd be quite ok with a list that excluded everyone that did no experiments, what use are they? I'm sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what could be, then it would be done... I agree, plus the 'math' types will still insist it can't work even when the math says it can. I think the speech about the 'ugly nest of believers' needs to be heard again. I have failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, _BUT_ I'm building systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement decrease daily as a result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said 'I know this is not so because the math says so'. Well John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back with candles and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last won. No, actually you've hit on one of the key Free Energy principles, amplified power transfer where 2 coils transfer power through unusual distances and seem to be OU. (despite how you dislike the term) I can assure you that what you achieved with Barium can be achieved with totally different cores (or no core), that's not to say the barium wasn't critical in your experiment, just that it isn't the only thing that can allow a transformer to do that. Take care, took guts to make the post. -----Original Message----- From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:52 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Dear Vo., General post: Open question set: NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair thinking and the like. (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? (B) Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY type and useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion to electric energy. amps and volts required. (C) Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory] I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!! Herma john ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7488E.E95360E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John=20 Berry said;
 
>>I  hate theory, but = must add=20 that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if = it is=20 to become a science.
 
John,=20 so is this the old 'Chicken and Egg' thing?
 
Maybe=20 I do not understand what you meant, but isn't there two ways of doing=20 things;
 
1)=20 Idea, (Hypothesis to Theory) to Test? I mean the basic premise, water = flows down=20 hill. We collect some water, go to the top of various elevations, = release the=20 water. Then we go to various valleys and depressions, release the water = and see=20 if it will flow up. Fine, I agree and all is well, unless we have 0 = gravity,=20 right? Therefore in this case our findings are only valid under the test = conditions and the test frame in which they are = performed.
 
So;=20 >> but = must add that=20 understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it = is to=20 become a science.
 
Is=20 only of value or accurate in the context that a reaction or result = exists that=20 can be understood. What is to understanding a technology that has yet to = exist=20 outside of arm chair minds? 'Think, Do, Explain', or could it be 'Do, = Think and=20 Explain' or is it 'Explain, Think and Do'?

>>This means = observation=20 and correlation.
 
This is = 100% right.=20 But, observe what?, a vision, dream or a 'Real Test Result' in physical=20 measurable results out side of mental=20 vision?

>>Gravity, = magnetism,=20 electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories.
 
Well my = simple mind=20 don't see it this way. First, 'Gravity and Magnetism or what ever' are = phenomena=20 which are name assignments given to somewhat predictable and = duplicate=20 able actions and consequences. Who, where and how can anyone say that = because of=20 billions of experiments under a specific set of conditions, insures that = those results are fact and carved in the stone of the universe, = never to be=20 changed based on the Empirical Results and the Matching Mathematic = Treatise?=20 What about multiple dimension's, Multiple Universes' and working under=20 'Different Sets of Action Consequence'?, Sorry, that has not been proven = by=20 experiment, wait, would not these experiments have to be done in all = dimension's=20 to insure this fact? Then what if these results show sub or super = dimensions=20 where it all changes again.

>>Recognizing = other=20 fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations = from=20 different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this=20 together.
 
I agree again 100%, but how does one recognize in vision? I do = admit=20 maybe I have it all backwards. I'm a do it, think about it, improve or = discard=20 it kind of guy. I am not a thin about it, discard it and never try it = because my=20 simple vision says it can not be done.
 
Theory, Thought, Vision, Dreams are primary to advancement, yet = you can=20 never be sure water is wet until you actually feel it with that mass = that=20 supports your thinking machine.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry=20 [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 = 3:40=20 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:=20 vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50



On 2/5/07, Stiffler=20 Scientific <stifflerscientific@earth= link.net>=20 wrote:
You are = calling it=20 right?
 
I have been = in and out of=20 groups for over 12 years now and it has not changed. The hands on = people are=20 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often about the arm chair crowd = and=20 they just tell me to 'MOVE = ON'.

I  hate theory, but must add that understanding what is = going on=20 with this technology is important if it is to become a science. =
This means=20 observation and correlation.
Gravity, magnetism, electricity are = not=20 theories, ideas of how they work are theories.
Recognizing other=20 fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations = from=20 different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this = together.=20

I guess ego = and self=20 stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a positive or = negative=20 result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up to=20 failure.

Personally I find negative results hard to take so I think 10 = times=20 more than experiment.
I'd be quite ok with a list that excluded = everyone=20 that did no experiments, what use are they?

I'm sick and = tired of the=20 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what could be, then it = would be=20 done...

I agree, plus the 'math' types  will still insist it = can't work=20 even when the math says it can.
I think the speech about the 'ugly = nest of=20 believers' needs to be heard again.

I have failed = and screwed=20 up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, _BUT_ I'm = building=20 systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement decrease daily = as a=20 result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said 'I know this = is not=20 so because the math says so'.
 
Well John I = don't see it=20 happening, at least not until we are all back with candles and = eating our=20 dogs. Guess the educational system has at last=20 won.

No, actually you've hit on one of the key Free Energy = principles,=20 amplified power transfer where 2 coils transfer power through unusual=20 distances and seem to be OU. (despite how you dislike the term) =

I can=20 assure you that what you achieved with Barium can be achieved with = totally=20 different cores (or no core), that's not to say the barium wasn't = critical in=20 your experiment, just that it isn't the only thing that can allow a=20 transformer to do that.

Take care, = took guts to=20 make the post.
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, = February=20 04, 2007 9:52 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com
Subject: = [Vo]: Re:=20 vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50

 
 
Dear Vo.,
 
  General post:
 
   Open question set:
 
   NB:  This is intended to address real world = science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support=20 answer.
 
  This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward = science, as=20 opposed to armchair
thinking and the like.
 
   (A)  Can any one give examples of = monopoles?
 
   (B)  Will anyone describe real world = science that=20 encompasses supporting
experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion = of=20 ANY
type and  useful and or unusual energy conversion ... = prefer=20 conversion
to electric energy.  amps and volts required.
 
   (C)  Any new work of any type which fits = with=20 above...[not theory]
 
         I am sure = not=20 everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone
 
  I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 = to 7=20 YEARS...!!!
Herma john
   
=


 
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7488E.E95360E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 19:24:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l153OE6f029431; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:24:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l153OCm5029418; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:24:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:24:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 22:21:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-reply-to: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the paper so > you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high voltages. Well one could also do what Stephen A. Lawrence suggested earlier. Put the lifter inside a box and place the box on a weight scale. > Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind hypothesis, for > thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been > experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum. But some people do > entertain the doubt on their websites, deliberately or not. If it is very hard to insulate high voltages as you say above, what makes the vacuum tests so credible? > What convinced me personnally is the fact that experimental thrusts are equal > to what is expected from ion wind theory (the formula I gave earlier on). So > any contribution of other effects is minimal at most. So the math has the last word. > Anyway EHD experiments are great fun and easy to do, so by all means > experiment and form your own opinion. I already have formed an opinion. The outcome of the suggested experiment might change my opinion. > Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen power > supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and hurt a > lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a meat > chopper I was told). > > Michel I would conduct the test myself, but my current living circumstances make it unfeasible. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 19:26:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l153PpAf029919; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:25:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l153PoBG029901; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:25:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:25:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DlfqM4KtbzQx+nUMVM4IVWmFrG4l2556NzXNr7G8FURHOH5g7zRt18OXWP4bX6SX+B0eg6FOhqsrpERPccBqmN7OKF3MMbTYRpO7ONJ5QgCMeFyV83k9hQ/iuYAN3edyuGyf089ck4H76msNVymZN4kuWkDlwQshWHQugn9a4YE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:25:48 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13861_20970409.1170645948740" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_13861_20970409.1170645948740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > John Berry said; > > >>I hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with > this technology is important if it is to become a science. > > John, so is this the old 'Chicken and Egg' thing? > > Maybe I do not understand what you meant, but isn't there two ways of > doing things; > > 1) Idea, (Hypothesis to Theory) to Test? I mean the basic premise, water > flows down hill. We collect some water, go to the top of various elevations, > release the water. Then we go to various valleys and depressions, release > the water and see if it will flow up. Fine, I agree and all is well, unless > we have 0 gravity, right? Therefore in this case our findings are only valid > under the test conditions and the test frame in which they are performed. > > So; >> but must add that understanding what is going on with this > technology is important if it is to become a science. > > Is only of value or accurate in the context that a reaction or result > exists that can be understood. What is to understanding a technology that > has yet to exist outside of arm chair minds? 'Think, Do, Explain', or could > it be 'Do, Think and Explain' or is it 'Explain, Think and Do'? > Study the devices that have demonstrated Free Energy or Antigravity along with other similar technology and phenomena, look for the oddities, the clues that betary what is going on, apply logic. So it is: 'Many others did, Think, Understand (not create theory but understand the phenomena at work and the consistent unique design features all these devices have), do' >>This means observation and correlation. > > This is 100% right. But, observe what?, a vision, dream or a 'Real Test > Result' in physical measurable results out side of mental vision? > See above. >>Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work > are theories. > > Well my simple mind don't see it this way. First, 'Gravity and Magnetism > or what ever' are phenomena which are name assignments given to somewhat > predictable and duplicate able actions and consequences. > Yes. Who, where and how can anyone say that because of billions of experiments > under a specific set of conditions, insures that those results are fact and > carved in the stone of the universe, never to be changed based on the > Empirical Results and the Matching Mathematic Treatise? > Indeed, what is possible can be changed by changing space time, or the aether which is the medium for all matter and energy, by manipulating it what is possible can be changed. What about multiple dimension's, Multiple Universes' and working under > 'Different Sets of Action Consequence'?, Sorry, that has not been proven by > experiment, wait, would not these experiments have to be done in all > dimension's to insure this fact? Then what if these results show sub or > super dimensions where it all changes again. > > >>Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations > and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical > to piecing this together. > > I agree again 100%, but how does one recognize in vision? > Not sure what you mean. I do admit maybe I have it all backwards. I'm a do it, think about it, > improve or discard it kind of guy. I am not a think about it, discard it and > never try it because my simple vision says it can not be done. > Indeed, obviously you can't do something outside of current understanding within the rules of current understanding, actually you might be able to find the odd loophole (and I think I have) but that's not the best way to go. The current understanding is not only somewhat incomplete, it's missing huge huge chunks so theory can't tell us what experiments will do. If you think I'm saying that we should trust equations or theory over experiment clearly I haven't been explaining myself very well. Theory, Thought, Vision, Dreams are primary to advancement, yet you can > never be sure water is wet until you actually feel it with that mass that > supports your thinking machine. > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:40 PM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 > > > > On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > > > You are calling it right? > > > > I have been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not > > changed. The hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often > > about the arm chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'. > > > > I hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this > technology is important if it is to become a science. > This means observation and correlation. > Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work > are theories. > Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and > observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to > piecing this together. > > I guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a > > positive or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up > > to failure. > > > > Personally I find negative results hard to take so I think 10 times more > than experiment. > I'd be quite ok with a list that excluded everyone that did no > experiments, what use are they? > > I'm sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what > > could be, then it would be done... > > > > I agree, plus the 'math' types will still insist it can't work even when > the math says it can. > I think the speech about the 'ugly nest of believers' needs to be heard > again. > > I have failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost > > count, _BUT_ I'm building systems, doing experiments and seeing my > > retirement decrease daily as a result. But, never have I looked in the > > mirror and said 'I know this is not so because the math says so'. > > > > Well John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back > > with candles and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last > > won. > > > > No, actually you've hit on one of the key Free Energy principles, > amplified power transfer where 2 coils transfer power through unusual > distances and seem to be OU. (despite how you dislike the term) > > I can assure you that what you achieved with Barium can be achieved with > totally different cores (or no core), that's not to say the barium wasn't > critical in your experiment, just that it isn't the only thing that can > allow a transformer to do that. > > Take care, took guts to make the post. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > *From:* john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:52 AM > > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > > *Cc:* vortex-digest@eskimo.com > > *Subject:* [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 > > > > > > > > Dear Vo., > > > > General post: > > > > Open question set: > > > > NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. > > Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. > > > > This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to > > armchair > > thinking and the like. > > > > (A) Can any one give examples of monopoles? > > > > (B) Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses > > supporting > > experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY > > type and useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion > > to electric energy. amps and volts required. > > > > (C) Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory] > > > > I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or > > armchair alone > > > > I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!! > > Herma john > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_13861_20970409.1170645948740 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific <stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
John Berry said;
 
>>I  hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science.
 
John, so is this the old 'Chicken and Egg' thing?
 
Maybe I do not understand what you meant, but isn't there two ways of doing things;
 
1) Idea, (Hypothesis to Theory) to Test? I mean the basic premise, water flows down hill. We collect some water, go to the top of various elevations, release the water. Then we go to various valleys and depressions, release the water and see if it will flow up. Fine, I agree and all is well, unless we have 0 gravity, right? Therefore in this case our findings are only valid under the test conditions and the test frame in which they are performed.
 
So; >> but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science.
 
Is only of value or accurate in the context that a reaction or result exists that can be understood. What is to understanding a technology that has yet to exist outside of arm chair minds? 'Think, Do, Explain', or could it be 'Do, Think and Explain' or is it 'Explain, Think and Do'?

Study the devices that have demonstrated Free Energy or Antigravity along with other similar technology and phenomena, look for the oddities, the clues that betary what is going on, apply logic.
So it is: 'Many others did, Think, Understand (not create theory but understand the phenomena at work and the consistent unique design features all these devices have), do'

>>This means observation and correlation.
 
This is 100% right. But, observe what?, a vision, dream or a 'Real Test Result' in physical measurable results out side of mental vision?

See above.

>>Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories.
 
Well my simple mind don't see it this way. First, 'Gravity and Magnetism or what ever' are phenomena which are name assignments given to somewhat predictable and duplicate able actions and consequences.

Yes.

Who, where and how can anyone say that because of billions of experiments under a specific set of conditions, insures that those results are fact and carved in the stone of the universe, never to be changed based on the Empirical Results and the Matching Mathematic Treatise?

Indeed, what is possible can be changed by changing space time, or the aether which is the medium for all matter and energy, by manipulating it what is possible can be changed.

What about multiple dimension's, Multiple Universes' and working under 'Different Sets of Action Consequence'?, Sorry, that has not been proven by experiment, wait, would not these experiments have to be done in all dimension's to insure this fact? Then what if these results show sub or super dimensions where it all changes again.

>>Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this together.
 
I agree again 100%, but how does one recognize in vision?

Not sure what you  mean.

I do admit maybe I have it all backwards. I'm a do it, think about it, improve or discard it kind of guy. I am not a think about it, discard it and never try it because my simple vision says it can not be done.

Indeed, obviously you can't do something outside of current understanding within the rules of current understanding, actually you might be able to find the odd loophole (and I think I have) but that's not the best way to go.

The current understanding is not only somewhat incomplete, it's missing huge huge chunks so theory can't tell us what experiments will do.
If you think I'm saying that we should trust equations or theory over experiment clearly I haven't been explaining myself very well.

Theory, Thought, Vision, Dreams are primary to advancement, yet you can never be sure water is wet until you actually feel it with that mass that supports your thinking machine.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:40 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50



On 2/5/07, Stiffler Scientific <stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
You are calling it right?
 
I have been in and out of groups for over 12 years now and it has not changed. The hands on people are 1% of the listers. I have cried foul often about the arm chair crowd and they just tell me to 'MOVE ON'.

I  hate theory, but must add that understanding what is going on with this technology is important if it is to become a science.
This means observation and correlation.
Gravity, magnetism, electricity are not theories, ideas of how they work are theories.
Recognizing other fundamental forces in the universe and correlations and observations from different FE/AG devices isn't theory but is critical to piecing this together.

I guess ego and self stroking gets them off more than doing and seeing a positive or negative result. Maybe I just hit on it, they can not stand up to failure.

Personally I find negative results hard to take so I think 10 times more than experiment.
I'd be quite ok with a list that excluded everyone that did no experiments, what use are they?

I'm sick and tired of the 'Math Says It Can't Be' if we were doing what could be, then it would be done...

I agree, plus the 'math' types  will still insist it can't work even when the math says it can.
I think the speech about the 'ugly nest of believers' needs to be heard again.

I have failed and screwed up and mis-represented so many times I lost count, _BUT_ I'm building systems, doing experiments and seeing my retirement decrease daily as a result. But, never have I looked in the mirror and said 'I know this is not so because the math says so'.
 
Well John I don't see it happening, at least not until we are all back with candles and eating our dogs. Guess the educational system has at last won.

No, actually you've hit on one of the key Free Energy principles, amplified power transfer where 2 coils transfer power through unusual distances and seem to be OU. (despite how you dislike the term)

I can assure you that what you achieved with Barium can be achieved with totally different cores (or no core), that's not to say the barium wasn't critical in your experiment, just that it isn't the only thing that can allow a transformer to do that.

Take care, took guts to make the post.
-----Original Message-----
From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 9:52 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50

 
 
Dear Vo.,
 
  General post:
 
   Open question set:
 
   NB:  This is intended to address real world science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer.
 
  This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to armchair
thinking and the like.
 
   (A)  Can any one give examples of monopoles?
 
   (B)  Will anyone describe real world science that encompasses supporting
experiments that might guide others toward energy convesion of ANY
type and  useful and or unusual energy conversion ... prefer conversion
to electric energy.  amps and volts required.
 
   (C)  Any new work of any type which fits with above...[not theory]
 
         I am sure not everyone is restricted to theory or guess or armchair alone
 
  I may be wrong... but do not see same over the last 5 to 7 YEARS...!!!
Herma john
   


 


------=_Part_13861_20970409.1170645948740-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 19:29:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l153Sx3m001557; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:29:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l153Sw8L001542; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:28:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:28:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c748d5$c2d40fe0$fb027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:28:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C748A3.77AE76E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: vortex-digest Digest V2007 #50 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C748A3.77AE76E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002B_01C748A3.77AE76E0" ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C748A3.77AE76E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blankjohn herman wrote.. General post: Open question set: NB: This is intended to address real world science. NOT theory. Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support answer. This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as opposed to = armchair thinking and the like. Howdy john, True science has a heavy armchair component and is heavy on theory. Our = company has an active research budget that has resulted in much = failure.... but .. occasionally.. even a blind hog can root up an = acorn.. Not being a nuclear physicist, I must depend on filtering thoughts that = eminate from the various posts submitted in this unique group Vortex-L.=20 Surprisingly, it has been the " armchair thinkers" here that have = provided me the most thoughtful stimulation. I must translate what I = read here into some mechanical component because that is what we build.. = mechanical products like vacuum induction feeder mixers and controls for = industry. For example, a single seemingly laughable comment I read provoked a = thought that resulted in solving a most sophisicated technical design = problem. It regarded the design of an extreme wide range precision = flow control valve with a range from 100 gpm down to zero with a turn = down ratio of 150:1. The problem was solved by thinking about a comment = made in Vortex. That comment prompted us to realize that industry had no = flow meter capable of measuring such a turn down ratio. Shazzaam ! We designed a precision control valve that is linear with = flow.. so we could use it also as a measure of flow as well as = control. < grin> So keep those armchair comments a part of the group.. Never know when a = simpleton for Dime Box Texas knows how to read. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C748A3.77AE76E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
john herman wrote..
  General post:
 
   Open question set:
 
   NB:  This is intended to address real world=20 science.  NOT theory.
Please defive term[s] and or experiment[s] which support = answer.
 
  This is an attempt to guide vortex back toward science, as = opposed=20 to armchair
thinking and the like.
 
Howdy john,
 
True science has a heavy armchair component and is heavy on theory. = Our=20 company has an active research budget that has resulted in much = failure.... but=20 .. occasionally.. even a blind hog can root up an acorn..
 
Not being a nuclear physicist, I must depend on filtering thoughts = that=20 eminate from the various posts submitted in this unique group Vortex-L. =
 
Surprisingly, it has been the " armchair thinkers" here that have = provided=20 me the most thoughtful stimulation. I must translate what I read here = into some=20 mechanical component because that is what we build.. mechanical products = like=20 vacuum induction feeder mixers and controls for industry.
 For example, a single seemingly laughable comment I read = provoked a=20 thought that resulted in solving a most sophisicated technical design=20 problem.  It regarded the design of an extreme wide range=20  precision  flow control valve  with a range from 100 gpm = down to=20 zero with a turn down ratio of  150:1. The problem was solved by = thinking=20 about a comment made in Vortex. That comment prompted us to realize that = industry had no flow meter capable of measuring such a turn down = ratio.
Shazzaam ! We designed a precision control valve that is linear = with=20 flow..  so we could use it  also as a measure of flow as well = as=20 control. < grin>
 
So keep those armchair comments a part of the group.. Never know = when a=20 simpleton for Dime Box Texas knows  how to read.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C748A3.77AE76E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C748A3.77AE76E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002901c748d5$c2445300$fb027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C748A3.77AE76E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 21:27:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l155R7hm010941; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:27:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l155R53b010887; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:27:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:27:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C6C017.1030308@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:26:47 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 References: <023001c74718$01f1f5d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <023001c74718$01f1f5d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5PVamB.A._pC.pAsxFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >>2. PARIS: THE IPCC REPORT ISSUED TODAY IS ALREADY OUT OF DATE. >> > >Out of date? It is incomplete to begin with. Why isn't there any mention >of the fact that every planet in the solar system, along with their moons, >are undergoing rapid climate change along with the Earth? > It doesn't fit with their agenda of getting more governmental control of the economy. I'm pleased to see mention of the heating of the rest of the solar system on this list, I don't suppose that it gets too much coverage elsewhere. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 22:20:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l156KjOx028720; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:20:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l156KhD4028706; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:20:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:20:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070205062043.2AF058A195@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 01:20:43 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A Lawrence wrote: > You've said two different things here: "the strength of the > field will drop", and "the voltage drops". The dielectric will > _certainly_ affect the voltage, just as interposing a charged > parallel plate capacitor would affect the voltage (which would > reduce it by the voltage to which the capacitor had been > charged). As an aside, that is how a polar dielectric acts to > increase the capacity of a parallel plate capacitor versus using > an air dielectric: for any particular net charge on the plates, > interposing it reduces the voltage between the plates; > consequently the ratio of charge to voltage increases. > What it won't do, however, _if_ it's a large flat sheet and the > field is perpendicular to it (and it carries no net charge), is > have a significant effect on the electric field on either side > of it ... any more than a large parallel plate capacitor would. > If you disagree please explain either (a) how a polar dielectric > in an E field differs in its field from a charged capacitor or > (b) how either one of them has a large effect on the field > outside the "plates". Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm a little concerned that we're talking past each other about different but related subjects. Forget about the terms "voltage" and "field strength". What I'm addressing is the physical force of attraction or repulsion between electrically charged objects, whatever terminology you want to apply to it. Let me propose a practical model. We have a charged metal object, a sphere, for example. It has been charged to, say, 20kV. The sphere is electrically isolated and there is no current source beyond the initial charge. There is no significant corona leakage within the time frame of our demonstration. To be classical, we have a pith ball hanging by a length of thread nearby and it is attracted to the charged sphere, as evidenced by the angle at which the thread inclines from the vertical toward the sphere. The pith ball has been placed at a distance that will not allow it to touch the charged sphere. Are you saying that an uncharged polar dielectric object with a high K placed between the charged metal sphere and the pith ball will have no effect on the attraction between the pith ball and the sphere? In other words, will the angle of the thread and the distance between the pith ball and the sphere remain unchanged? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 23:07:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1576xQ5024617; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:06:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1576vD0024606; Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:06:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:06:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C6D77A.2030707@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:06:34 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics References: <086301c7482c$86e4f020$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <086301c7482c$86e4f020$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0I8MGC.A.aAG.RetxFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone posted the idea of powering their lifter with batteries. I'd like to suggest a MHD generator. It would seem to me that ti would be lighter, I don't know about the price though. >>>> >>>>This is a device several guys on this list could build and test. >>>> >>>>Harry >>>> >>>> >>>> > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 01:09:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15991DO004628; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 01:09:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1598xRr004608; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 01:08:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 01:08:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09e801c74905$460a6920$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <023001c74718$01f1f5d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45C6C017.1030308@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:09:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1598vHW004582 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Status: O X-Status: Outside of the US it's hilarious to see how even weather, which used to be the most consensual of topics, has become a political issue there, subject to the same lack of logic and openness as traditional political arguments. What you're missing is that if solar output variations contribute significantly to global warming, then humans should redouble efforts to reduce GHG emissions. You shoot yourselves in the foot :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 > David Thomson wrote: > >>>2. PARIS: THE IPCC REPORT ISSUED TODAY IS ALREADY OUT OF DATE. >>> >> >>Out of date? It is incomplete to begin with. Why isn't there any mention >>of the fact that every planet in the solar system, along with their moons, >>are undergoing rapid climate change along with the Earth? >> > It doesn't fit with their agenda of getting more governmental control of > the economy. I'm pleased to see mention of the heating of the rest of > the solar system on this list, I don't suppose that it gets too much > coverage elsewhere. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 02:12:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15ACbjI015509; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:12:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15ACZJV015494; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:12:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:12:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JCnFuQIWdofWyLumLravp5puNCit93tnSPQaqHAWq/Zn2EU4gHy0GpeW3B3t1p8jGOJ9yn6L6nych3U6othyA8kZBoeqQzZ07KsKcNlFUAdg/lEsf9jalUmmX/ssVVFHM4wYFloayhRAb4mwk5Y4gsMjDJYOVee/JtcsEDR2N/c= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:12:34 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 In-Reply-To: <023001c74718$01f1f5d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14372_28900086.1170670354056" References: <17175775.1170450323424.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <023001c74718$01f1f5d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: <4OWkcD.A.CyD.TMwxFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_14372_28900086.1170670354056 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, I'll bite, where is the evidence that all planets are heating up in the last few years, and by how much? And if this is happening isn't it more reason not to make the problem with worse with greenhouse gases? On 2/3/07, David Thomson wrote: > > > 2. PARIS: THE IPCC REPORT ISSUED TODAY IS ALREADY OUT OF DATE. > > Out of date? It is incomplete to begin with. Why isn't there any mention > of the fact that every planet in the solar system, along with their moons, > are undergoing rapid climate change along with the Earth? I think people > need to know just how far reaching human burning of fossil fuel is. Not > only are we destroying our own planet, but every other planet in the solar > system. > > What's even more surprising is that there is no mention of the impending > slaughter of humans. Just 11,500 years ago a seemingly natural climate > change occurred, which wiped out the Wooly Mammoths, Saber Toothed Tigers, > Giant Ground Sloths, Giant Beavers, and dozens of other species. Not only > that, but 400 years ago the Earth cooled considerably from a greenhouse > state and is known as the Maunder Minimum. Human greenhouse gases are not > only extending to the outer reaches of the solar system, they are also > going > back in time to wipe out species, which we have never even seen. This is > getting way out of hand and something needs to be done about it. > > Also, greenhouse gases are responsible for the increase in reported alien > abductions and the addiction to Harry Potter novels. Of course, we all > know > George Bush is the cause of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, and the IPCC > didn't mention anything about that, either. > > > 3. WASHINGTON: THE ADMINISTRATION SUPPRESSES CLIMATE FINDINGS. > > Oh, I see, you caught that one, too? God forbid anybody ever question the > quacks at IPCC. > > Dave > > ------=_Part_14372_28900086.1170670354056 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, I'll bite, where is the evidence that all planets are heating up in the last few years, and by how much?

And if this is happening isn't it more reason not to make the problem with worse with greenhouse gases?

On 2/3/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:
> 2. PARIS: THE IPCC REPORT ISSUED TODAY IS ALREADY OUT OF DATE.

Out of date?  It is incomplete to begin with.  Why isn't there any mention
of the fact that every planet in the solar system, along with their moons,
are undergoing rapid climate change along with the Earth?  I think people
need to know just how far reaching human burning of fossil fuel is.  Not
only are we destroying our own planet, but every other planet in the solar
system.

What's even more surprising is that there is no mention of the impending
slaughter of humans.  Just 11,500 years ago a seemingly natural climate
change occurred, which wiped out the Wooly Mammoths, Saber Toothed Tigers,
Giant Ground Sloths, Giant Beavers, and dozens of other species.  Not only
that, but 400 years ago the Earth cooled considerably from a greenhouse
state and is known as the Maunder Minimum.  Human greenhouse gases are not
only extending to the outer reaches of the solar system, they are also going
back in time to wipe out species, which we have never even seen.  This is
getting way out of hand and something needs to be done about it.

Also, greenhouse gases are responsible for the increase in reported alien
abductions and the addiction to Harry Potter novels.  Of course, we all know
George Bush is the cause of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, and the IPCC
didn't mention anything about that, either.

> 3. WASHINGTON: THE ADMINISTRATION SUPPRESSES CLIMATE FINDINGS.

Oh, I see, you caught that one, too?  God forbid anybody ever question the
quacks at IPCC.

Dave


------=_Part_14372_28900086.1170670354056-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 05:31:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15DVKXx020554; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:31:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15DVIIt020540; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:31:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:31:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c74929$e5fe3f00$4b037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:31:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C748F7.9AC7DD20"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C748F7.9AC7DD20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C748F7.9AC7DD20" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C748F7.9AC7DD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankDavid Thompson wrote.. there is no mention of the impending slaughter of humans. Just 11,500 years ago a seemingly natural climate change occurred, which wiped out the Wooly Mammoths, Saber Toothed = Tigers,=20 Giant Ground Sloths, Giant Beavers, and dozens of other species. Howdy Vorts.. Nope, they ain't all missing. Some are holed up over near Dime Box Texas = and come to the dance every Friday. Dancing with a gal like a Wooly = Mammoth or a Giant Beaver can be frightening. Solar warming is caused by an increase in our sun spot activity. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C748F7.9AC7DD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
David Thompson wrote..

there is no mention of the impending
slaughter of = humans.  Just=20 11,500 years ago a seemingly natural climate
change occurred, which = wiped out=20 the Wooly Mammoths, Saber Toothed Tigers,
Giant Ground Sloths, Giant = Beavers, and dozens of other species.

Howdy Vorts..

Nope, they ain't all missing. Some are holed up over near Dime Box = Texas and=20 come to the dance every Friday. Dancing  with a gal like a = Wooly=20 Mammoth or a Giant Beaver can be  frightening.

Solar warming is caused by an increase in our sun spot activity.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C748F7.9AC7DD20-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C748F7.9AC7DD20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c74929$e5561820$4b037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C748F7.9AC7DD20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 05:32:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15DVuhb000884; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:31:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15DVscr000873; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:31:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:31:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:31:11 -0600 Message-ID: <00b801c74929$efa6c7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <09e801c74905$460a6920$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdJBgxmPGGEW4eaSIiwyLzt0G883gAI4cJw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > What you're missing is that if solar output variations contribute > significantly to global warming, then humans should redouble efforts to > reduce GHG emissions. You shoot yourselves in the foot :) What you are missing is that spending money on reducing unimportant GHG emissions could be spent on technology for surviving natural climate change. The IPCC is shooting themselves in the head. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 05:46:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15DkFqR030637; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:46:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15DkEhY030621; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:46:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:46:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 2, 2007 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:45:28 -0600 Message-ID: <00bc01c7492b$f02f1fb0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C748F9.A594AFB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcdJDuACXNjb3N8gQ2mj06syRdNHhgAGxVSA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C748F9.A594AFB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, > Ok, I'll bite, where is the evidence that all planets are heating up in the last few years, and by how much? According to NASA, Mars is experiencing global warming Neptune's largest moon, Triton, is also experiencing global warming: There are thousands of references on the Internet about Triton's global warming Global warming on Pluto. Jupiter, is also undergoing global warming. Saturn shows signs of climate change: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/20061109-022035-4126r/ * And if this is happening isn't it more reason not to make the problem with worse with greenhouse gases? Actually, it is quite likely that GHG could solve the problem of global climate change. During the reign of the dinosaurs, there was 1000 times more biomass on the surface of the planet. All the carbon from that time period is now sequestered as "fossil fuels." By bringing the carbon back to the surface of the planet, it will eventually be absorbed by plants and animals, thus converting the lifeless sequestered carbon under the ground back into abundant life on the surface of the planet. Life forms efficiently manage the water vapor. But more important, if we can get a high enough concentration of GHGs in the upper atmosphere, we could prevent the sudden climate swing that will instantly freeze the planet. See my web site at www.terracycles.com . If the climate could remain stable for hundreds of millions of years at a time (until a comet or galactic event wipes us out) that would be a lot better than the mere few hundred years we get in between glacial cycles. Anybody who believes the Earth had stabilized and was going to remain forever warm is seriously deluded. We are, and have been for the past 63 million years, in the middle of a glaciation cycles. This *is* an ice age we live in. This fact is well known. It is amazing that the IPCC scientists could be in denial about this and be worried about changing the climate to a warmer one. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C748F9.A594AFB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi John,

 

> Ok, I'll bite, where is the evidence that all planets are = heating up in the last few years, and by how much?

 

According to NASA, Mars is experienci= ng global warming

Neptune's largest = moon, Triton, is also experiencing global warming:

There are th= ousands of references on the Internet about Triton's global warming =

Global warming on Pluto.

Jupiter, is also undergoing global warming.

Saturn shows signs of climate change: htt= p://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/20061109-022035-4126r/

Ø       = And if this is happening isn't it more reason not to make the problem with = worse with greenhouse gases?

 

Actually, it is quite likely that GHG could solve the problem of = global climate change.  During the reign of the dinosaurs, there was 1000 = times more biomass on the surface of the planet.  All the carbon from = that time period is now sequestered as “fossil fuels.”  By = bringing the carbon back to the surface of the planet, it will eventually be absorbed = by plants and animals, thus converting the lifeless sequestered carbon = under the ground back into abundant life on the surface of the planet.  =

 

Life forms efficiently manage the water vapor.  But more important, if we can get a high enough concentration of GHGs in the = upper atmosphere, we could prevent the sudden climate swing that will = instantly freeze the planet.  See my web site at www.terracycles.com.  If = the climate could remain stable for hundreds of millions of years at a time = (until a comet or galactic event wipes us out) that would be a lot better than = the mere few hundred years we get in between glacial = cycles.

 

Anybody who believes the Earth had stabilized and was going to = remain forever warm is seriously deluded.  We are, and have been for the = past 63 million years, in the middle of a glaciation cycles.  This = *is* an ice age we live in.  = This fact is well known.  It is amazing that the IPCC scientists could be in = denial about this and be worried about changing the climate to a warmer = one.

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C748F9.A594AFB0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 06:02:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15E2J50007977; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 06:02:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15E2EMu007938; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 06:02:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 06:02:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C738DC.904@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:02:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics References: <20070205062043.2AF058A195@xprdmxin.myway.com> In-Reply-To: <20070205062043.2AF058A195@xprdmxin.myway.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster wrote: > Stephen A Lawrence wrote: > >> You've said two different things here: "the strength of the >> field will drop", and "the voltage drops". The dielectric will >> _certainly_ affect the voltage, just as interposing a charged >> parallel plate capacitor would affect the voltage (which would >> reduce it by the voltage to which the capacitor had been >> charged). As an aside, that is how a polar dielectric acts to >> increase the capacity of a parallel plate capacitor versus using >> an air dielectric: for any particular net charge on the plates, >> interposing it reduces the voltage between the plates; >> consequently the ratio of charge to voltage increases. > > >> What it won't do, however, _if_ it's a large flat sheet and the >> field is perpendicular to it (and it carries no net charge), is >> have a significant effect on the electric field on either side >> of it ... any more than a large parallel plate capacitor would. > > >> If you disagree please explain either (a) how a polar dielectric >> in an E field differs in its field from a charged capacitor or >> (b) how either one of them has a large effect on the field >> outside the "plates". > > Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm a little > concerned that we're talking past each other about different but > related subjects. Forget about the terms "voltage" and "field > strength". What I'm addressing is the physical force of attraction > or repulsion between electrically charged objects, whatever > terminology you want to apply to it. That's field strength -- the local electric field is all that a charged object can "sense". A voltmeter, which is connected via conductors of some sort to two different points in space, measures the difference in potential energy a unit of charge would have at those two points; that's voltage. A typical voltmeter lets a significant amount of current flow in the course of its operation and hence only works with circuits -- won't work with "static" charges. Somebody -- I think it was you? -- mentioned an electrostatic voltmeter; sounds pretty spiffy, but I've never seen one: the best I can do here is an opamp on the front of a Radio Shack volt-ohm meter and that's still not high enough impedance (and low enough capacitance!) to measure static charges. Electroscopes using a couple of leaves of aluminum foil (or gold, if you're using a "real" one), on the other hand, are a different story, and I have played with a home made version a bit, several years ago. I _think_ an electroscope measures the voltage difference between the top and bottom of the bottle but I'd have to think about it a while to be sure... (and they measure humidity, and ionization in the air, and other stuff, all at once, which makes them a bit hard to use precisely, to say nothing of the fact that, if you charge the electroscope and then look for a deflection in the leaves to tell you about variations in the local field, the electroscope itself is producing a significant and oddly shaped field all on its own, and so messing up other parts of the experiment...) > Let me propose a practical model. We have a charged metal object, > a sphere, for example. It has been charged to, say, 20kV. The > sphere is electrically isolated and there is no current source > beyond the initial charge. OK there's already a problem here. You can specify the amount of charge on the sphere -- 0.1 coulomb, whatever -- but without knowing the geometry of the whole situation and, in particular, the placement of negative charges and the point you pick for "ground", you _don't_ know the voltage. If you have an equal but negatively charged sphere close by, and no other charges near, the voltage between the spheres will be relatively low. If you pull the two spheres apart (and hence do work on them) the voltage between them will rise, roughly in proportion to the distance between them. The voltage is the amount of energy a unit of charge will gain when it moves from the positive to the negative pole -- or the positive pole to ground -- and that depends on how far it goes, as well as depending on the field strength. And, of course, it depends on the point you choose for "ground". So, the point is you can't meaningfully say it's charged to "20kV". But enough nits; let's move on... > There is no significant corona leakage > within the time frame of our demonstration. To be classical, we > have a pith ball hanging by a length of thread nearby and it is > attracted to the charged sphere, as evidenced by the angle at which > the thread inclines from the vertical toward the sphere. The pith > ball has been placed at a distance that will not allow it to touch > the charged sphere. > > Are you saying that an uncharged polar dielectric object with a > high K placed between the charged metal sphere and the pith ball > will have no effect on the attraction between the pith ball and > the sphere? In other words, will the angle of the thread and the > distance between the pith ball and the sphere remain unchanged? As far as I can see that must be correct. Note, though, that there are some very touchy issues when it comes to actually doing the experiment. First, if your insulator actually _conducts_ at all, even at gigohms per square, you may get an "image charge" effect: negative charges will be attracted from the edges of the material toward the middle by the positively charged sphere, and that will locally have a large effect on the E field. As an extreme example, if you use a (large, flat) sheet of aluminum foil instead of an insulator, the pith ball will lose a lot of its interest in the charged sphere. (But then grounding issues intrude -- if you touch the Al, thus momentarily grounding it, it pulls some charge from your body with which to _really_ neutralize the E field of the sphere, and again you're not testing what you expected...) This effect can be avoided or reduced by bending the insulator around the charged sphere, but the experiment gets harder in that case. Second, if the humidity is down around zero (as it tends to be this time of the year where we live) your "neutral" insulator may very well not be neutral to start with, which can totally mess up the experiment. I've played with these things a bit, just using simple stuff lying around the house (charged balloons, paper pieces, an old Zerostat, wires, steel balls, and such); that works pretty well during the dry, dry winter in the Northland. But, I don't recall ever sliding a plastic sheet between two attracting objects. So, I'm just quoting theory at this point. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 11:48:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15Jmal4013057; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:48:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15JmYnC013045; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:48:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:48:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:48:30 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus Status: O X-Status: There's been a little confusion over field strength versus voltage recently on this list. Here's a cool gadget that helps to illustrate the difference. Most likely most readers are already familiar with it, but perhaps it will be new to some. (General description obtained from "Models for Experiments in Physics", by A. D. Bulman, no doubt out of print for 30 years at this point.) (BTW I've been planning to build one of these for the last few decades and haven't _quite_ gotten around to it just yet -- maybe before this winter's over...) Start with two shallow tin trays, baking pan size or a bit smaller, with rolled edges. Glue an insulated handle to the smaller one. Recommended: An empty detergent bottle, with cap glued to pan, so the handle may be unscrewed. (Remove label first, he sez; maybe paper isn't so hot in the "insulator" department?) Glue a sheet of "good insulator" to the larger pan. Recommended sources: Bottom of an old plastic dishpan, or a cylindrical polyethelene bottle, top and bottom cut off, cylinder slitted and "unrolled" so it's flat; heat it to flatten it, he sez. Not too hot or it will stink, sez I. Now warm everything up (why warm it? dunno) and then charge the insulating sheet by "flicking" it with a piece of flannel, or rubbing it with a "dry dust cloth" or piece of fur. You're done. (Does the large pan have to be grounded? Book doesn't say; I think the answer is no, it must float, but I'm not sure.) Now, to use it, holding the smaller pan by its handle, place it on the insulator on the larger pan (insulator must be bigger than smaller pan, did I neglect to mention that?). Touch the small pan with a finger to ground it. Now lift it up by the handle, being careful not to touch it. Finally, bring your knuckle near the small pan, which you are holding by the handle; supposedly, if all goes well, you can pull a spark an inch long from it ... despite the fact that it was at exactly the same potential as your finger mere moments before, and no charge has been added or removed since. You can do it again, as often as you like, _without_ recharging the insulator, until the charge on the insulator finally bleeds off through the air (this is presumably best done in the winter). Anyhow so says the text. As I said, I keep meaning to build one of these, but we use our old tin baking pans for baking things, I don't have any cylindrical polyethylene bottles lying around the house, and I just never got around to scaring up alternatives. Now, the point of this is that the _field_ between the small and large pans is strongest when they're closest together, yet the _voltage_ between the small pan and ground is largest when it's farthest from the large pan. The voltage is boosted mightily by the work done in pulling the pans apart, while the actual field between them is either unchanged or actually decreases in intensity. Anybody cares to find out if this gadget actually works, I'd love to hear about the results -- or, as I said, maybe I'll finally get around to building one this year, before the weather gets warm again and the humidity goes up... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 11:58:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15Jw24X026427; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:58:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15Jw0V2026347; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:58:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:58:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:57:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > There's been a little confusion over field strength versus voltage > recently on this list. Here's a cool gadget that helps to illustrate > the difference. Most likely most readers are already familiar with it, > but perhaps it will be new to some. (General description obtained from > "Models for Experiments in Physics", by A. D. Bulman, no doubt out of > print for 30 years at this point.) > > (BTW I've been planning to build one of these for the last few decades > and haven't _quite_ gotten around to it just yet -- maybe before this > winter's over...) > > Start with two shallow tin trays, baking pan size or a bit smaller, with > rolled edges. > > Glue an insulated handle to the smaller one. Recommended: An empty > detergent bottle, with cap glued to pan, so the handle may be unscrewed. > (Remove label first, he sez; maybe paper isn't so hot in the > "insulator" department?) > > Glue a sheet of "good insulator" to the larger pan. Recommended > sources: Bottom of an old plastic dishpan, or a cylindrical polyethelene > bottle, top and bottom cut off, cylinder slitted and "unrolled" so it's > flat; heat it to flatten it, he sez. Not too hot or it will stink, sez I. > > Now warm everything up (why warm it? dunno) and then charge the > insulating sheet by "flicking" it with a piece of flannel, or rubbing it > with a "dry dust cloth" or piece of fur. > > You're done. (Does the large pan have to be grounded? Book doesn't > say; I think the answer is no, it must float, but I'm not sure.) > > Now, to use it, holding the smaller pan by its handle, place it on the > insulator on the larger pan (insulator must be bigger than smaller pan, > did I neglect to mention that?). Touch the small pan with a finger to > ground it. Now lift it up by the handle, being careful not to touch it. > Finally, bring your knuckle near the small pan, which you are holding > by the handle; supposedly, if all goes well, you can pull a spark an > inch long from it ... despite the fact that it was at exactly the same > potential as your finger mere moments before, and no charge has been > added or removed since. > > You can do it again, as often as you like, _without_ recharging the > insulator, until the charge on the insulator finally bleeds off through > the air (this is presumably best done in the winter). > > Anyhow so says the text. As I said, I keep meaning to build one of > these, but we use our old tin baking pans for baking things, I don't > have any cylindrical polyethylene bottles lying around the house, and I > just never got around to scaring up alternatives. > > Now, the point of this is that the _field_ between the small and large > pans is strongest when they're closest together, yet the _voltage_ > between the small pan and ground is largest when it's farthest from the > large pan. The voltage is boosted mightily by the work done in pulling > the pans apart, while the actual field between them is either unchanged > or actually decreases in intensity. Minor addendum/correction: The field is small, _UNTIL_ you bring your finger or other grounded pointy thing near the pan; at that point the field between the point and the pan will get very large, which is what finally breaks down the air to form the spark. This suggests that you must lift the gadget straight up (don't tilt it), to avoid having the charge on the pan "slosh" to one edge due to the (approximately vertical) field from the insulator, thus forming a "hot spot" in the charge density which would break down the air around it and short out before you got them far enough apart to be interesting. Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer spark? Dunno. Sigh... I've gotta finally spend the time to build one of these things... > > Anybody cares to find out if this gadget actually works, I'd love to > hear about the results -- or, as I said, maybe I'll finally get around > to building one this year, before the weather gets warm again and the > humidity goes up... > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 13:00:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15L0J87009543; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:00:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15L0HjL009521; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:00:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:00:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 08:00:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9k6fs2tl138fhsd3s0jcnol1mpbopjompq@4ax.com> References: <09e801c74905$460a6920$3800a8c0@zothan> <00b801c74929$efa6c7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <00b801c74929$efa6c7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:00:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l15L0EY4009459 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to David Thomson's message of Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:31:11 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Hi Michel, > >> What you're missing is that if solar output variations contribute >> significantly to global warming, then humans should redouble efforts to >> reduce GHG emissions. You shoot yourselves in the foot :) > >What you are missing is that spending money on reducing unimportant GHG >emissions could be spent on technology for surviving natural climate change. >The IPCC is shooting themselves in the head. > >Dave What you are missing is that the money would be better spent on CF, so that we both reduce GHG emissions, and increase wealth. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 13:05:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15L5JrK013067; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:05:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15L5Ijw013054; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:05:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 08:05:14 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001201c74929$e5fe3f00$4b037841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001201c74929$e5fe3f00$4b037841@xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:05:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l15L5F1B013025 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:31:09 -0600: Hi, [snip] >BlankDavid Thompson wrote.. >there is no mention of the impending >slaughter of humans. Just 11,500 years ago a seemingly natural climate >change occurred, which wiped out the Wooly Mammoths, Saber Toothed Tigers, >Giant Ground Sloths, Giant Beavers, and dozens of other species. > >Howdy Vorts.. > >Nope, they ain't all missing. Some are holed up over near Dime Box Texas and come to the dance every Friday. Dancing with a gal like a Wooly Mammoth or a Giant Beaver can be frightening. > >Solar warming is caused by an increase in our sun spot activity. > >Richard An increase in Solar radiance may very well be partially to blame, however I fail to see what that has to do with sun spots. Furthermore sun spots follow an approximately 11-12 year cycle, and I don't see global warming doing the same. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 13:12:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15LBqbc020682; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:11:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15LBpkP020657; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:11:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:11:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:11:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l15LBmXt020534 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice! It's pretty obvious why voltage increases when you think of it as variable gap capacitor with a constant charge, q=C*V, if you lower C by increasing the gap then V necessarily increases. > Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer > spark? The answer is yes obviously (the needle is sharper than your knuckle) but there is no need to glue it to the small pan, you can hold the needle in your discharging hand (whichever side of the discharge gap you put the pointed end is fine) Also I don't see why it would make a difference whether the large pan is grounded or not. Simplest is to rest it on the table without further ado. You didn't say, but I imagine the bottom larger pan must be upside down :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus > > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> There's been a little confusion over field strength versus voltage >> recently on this list. Here's a cool gadget that helps to illustrate >> the difference. Most likely most readers are already familiar with it, >> but perhaps it will be new to some. (General description obtained from >> "Models for Experiments in Physics", by A. D. Bulman, no doubt out of >> print for 30 years at this point.) >> >> (BTW I've been planning to build one of these for the last few decades >> and haven't _quite_ gotten around to it just yet -- maybe before this >> winter's over...) >> >> Start with two shallow tin trays, baking pan size or a bit smaller, with >> rolled edges. >> >> Glue an insulated handle to the smaller one. Recommended: An empty >> detergent bottle, with cap glued to pan, so the handle may be unscrewed. >> (Remove label first, he sez; maybe paper isn't so hot in the >> "insulator" department?) >> >> Glue a sheet of "good insulator" to the larger pan. Recommended >> sources: Bottom of an old plastic dishpan, or a cylindrical polyethelene >> bottle, top and bottom cut off, cylinder slitted and "unrolled" so it's >> flat; heat it to flatten it, he sez. Not too hot or it will stink, sez I. >> >> Now warm everything up (why warm it? dunno) and then charge the >> insulating sheet by "flicking" it with a piece of flannel, or rubbing it >> with a "dry dust cloth" or piece of fur. >> >> You're done. (Does the large pan have to be grounded? Book doesn't >> say; I think the answer is no, it must float, but I'm not sure.) >> >> Now, to use it, holding the smaller pan by its handle, place it on the >> insulator on the larger pan (insulator must be bigger than smaller pan, >> did I neglect to mention that?). Touch the small pan with a finger to >> ground it. Now lift it up by the handle, being careful not to touch it. >> Finally, bring your knuckle near the small pan, which you are holding >> by the handle; supposedly, if all goes well, you can pull a spark an >> inch long from it ... despite the fact that it was at exactly the same >> potential as your finger mere moments before, and no charge has been >> added or removed since. >> >> You can do it again, as often as you like, _without_ recharging the >> insulator, until the charge on the insulator finally bleeds off through >> the air (this is presumably best done in the winter). >> >> Anyhow so says the text. As I said, I keep meaning to build one of >> these, but we use our old tin baking pans for baking things, I don't >> have any cylindrical polyethylene bottles lying around the house, and I >> just never got around to scaring up alternatives. >> >> Now, the point of this is that the _field_ between the small and large >> pans is strongest when they're closest together, yet the _voltage_ >> between the small pan and ground is largest when it's farthest from the >> large pan. The voltage is boosted mightily by the work done in pulling >> the pans apart, while the actual field between them is either unchanged >> or actually decreases in intensity. > > Minor addendum/correction: The field is small, _UNTIL_ you bring your > finger or other grounded pointy thing near the pan; at that point the > field between the point and the pan will get very large, which is what > finally breaks down the air to form the spark. > > This suggests that you must lift the gadget straight up (don't tilt it), > to avoid having the charge on the pan "slosh" to one edge due to the > (approximately vertical) field from the insulator, thus forming a "hot > spot" in the charge density which would break down the air around it and > short out before you got them far enough apart to be interesting. > > Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer > spark? Dunno. Sigh... I've gotta finally spend the time to build one > of these things... > > >> >> Anybody cares to find out if this gadget actually works, I'd love to >> hear about the results -- or, as I said, maybe I'll finally get around >> to building one this year, before the weather gets warm again and the >> humidity goes up... >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 14:16:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15MGZLt002839; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:16:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15MGUvh002802; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:16:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:16:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:14:58 -0600 Message-ID: <011401c74973$3369d8f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcdJacF9Nayq14BsSJ2xMe5dWTiPXQACJqVw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, > An increase in Solar radiance may very well be partially to blame, It's irradiance, not radiance. > however I fail to see what that has to do with sun spots. Furthermore sun > spots follow an approximately 11-12 year cycle, and I don't see global > warming doing the same. You would have to look further than a single 11 year cycle. Sunspots ceased to exist for about 100 years around the 1500s. The intensity of the cycles have been increasing in the last 50 years or so. Similarly, global warming has been taking place for the past 10,000 years, although the alarmists are particularly concerned about the past 150 years, not the past 11 years. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 14:38:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15McJuc018780; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:38:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15McHNW018754; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:38:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:38:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0b2701c74976$558b4e70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <011401c74973$3369d8f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:38:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l15McFKr018735 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > It's irradiance, not radiance. Radiance is a physics term David, don't apologize you couldn't possibly know. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:14 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 > Hi Robin, > >> An increase in Solar radiance may very well be partially to blame, > > It's irradiance, not radiance. > >> however I fail to see what that has to do with sun spots. Furthermore sun >> spots follow an approximately 11-12 year cycle, and I don't see global >> warming doing the same. > > You would have to look further than a single 11 year cycle. Sunspots ceased > to exist for about 100 years around the 1500s. The intensity of the cycles > have been increasing in the last 50 years or so. Similarly, global warming > has been taking place for the past 10,000 years, although the alarmists are > particularly concerned about the past 150 years, not the past 11 years. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 14:54:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15MsVMf010837; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:54:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15MsSGJ010812; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:54:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:54:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:52:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) In-reply-to: <00b801c74929$efa6c7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <01OGRB.A.4oC.jW7xFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Michel, > >> What you're missing is that if solar output variations contribute >> significantly to global warming, then humans should redouble efforts to >> reduce GHG emissions. You shoot yourselves in the foot :) > > What you are missing is that spending money on reducing unimportant GHG > emissions could be spent on technology for surviving natural climate change. > The IPCC is shooting themselves in the head. > The truth has bubbled to the surface. Global warming is a strategy for creating capital. "Make work. Not peace!" Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 15:09:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15N9QLX004403; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:09:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15N9Pgu004390; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:09:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:09:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:08:25 -0600 Message-ID: <011801c7497a$952d9a20$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <0b2701c74976$558b4e70$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdJdyQpq6RoG30UQNGGjQ3Y3knZxQAArq0w Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, Thank you for your advice, but save your ignorance for someone else. "Black hole" is a "physics term," too, but it is the wrong term for discussing the Sun's output. Do a Google search for -"solar irradiance" "earth radiance"- to see how real physicists use the terms. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:38 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 > > > It's irradiance, not radiance. > > Radiance is a physics term David, don't apologize you couldn't possibly > know. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Thomson" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:14 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 > > > > Hi Robin, > > > >> An increase in Solar radiance may very well be partially to blame, > > > > It's irradiance, not radiance. > > > >> however I fail to see what that has to do with sun spots. Furthermore > sun > >> spots follow an approximately 11-12 year cycle, and I don't see global > >> warming doing the same. > > > > You would have to look further than a single 11 year cycle. Sunspots > ceased > > to exist for about 100 years around the 1500s. The intensity of the > cycles > > have been increasing in the last 50 years or so. Similarly, global > warming > > has been taking place for the past 10,000 years, although the alarmists > are > > particularly concerned about the past 150 years, not the past 11 years. > > > > Dave > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 15:14:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15NEItv019931; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:14:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15NEDGA019900; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:14:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:13:25 -0600 Message-ID: <011901c7497b$43f9d500$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <9k6fs2tl138fhsd3s0jcnol1mpbopjompq@4ax.com> Thread-Index: AcdJaXso9lHyRUaKSvSUSbhre2/LiAAETVKg Resent-Message-ID: <5aiVsB.A.42E.Fp7xFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, > >What you are missing is that spending money on reducing unimportant GHG > >emissions could be spent on technology for surviving natural climate > >change. The IPCC is shooting themselves in the head. > > > >Dave > > What you are missing is that the money would be better spent on CF, so > that we both reduce GHG emissions, and increase wealth. CF would fall under the category of "technology for surviving natural climate change." BTW, I used to work for one of Pons and Fleischmann's financiers as finance manager for some of his other businesses. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 15:31:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l15NVNYN021685; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:31:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l15NVLSL021658; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:31:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:31:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0b4c01c7497d$befbc860$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <011801c7497a$952d9a20$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:31:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l15NVJPR021634 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/radiance ra·di·ance also ra·di·an·cy n. 1. The quality or state of being radiant. 2. Physics The radiant energy emitted per unit time in a specified direction by a unit area of an emitting surface. Any reason why it couldn't be applied to the surface of the sun? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 > Hi Michel, > > Thank you for your advice, but save your ignorance for someone else. "Black > hole" is a "physics term," too, but it is the wrong term for discussing the > Sun's output. Do a Google search for -"solar irradiance" "earth radiance"- > to see how real physicists use the terms. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] >> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:38 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 >> >> > It's irradiance, not radiance. >> >> Radiance is a physics term David, don't apologize you couldn't possibly >> know. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Thomson" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:14 PM >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Fw:{Bob Parks...Feb.2 >> >> >> > Hi Robin, >> > >> >> An increase in Solar radiance may very well be partially to blame, >> > >> > It's irradiance, not radiance. >> > >> >> however I fail to see what that has to do with sun spots. Furthermore >> sun >> >> spots follow an approximately 11-12 year cycle, and I don't see global >> >> warming doing the same. >> > >> > You would have to look further than a single 11 year cycle. Sunspots >> ceased >> > to exist for about 100 years around the 1500s. The intensity of the >> cycles >> > have been increasing in the last 50 years or so. Similarly, global >> warming >> > has been taking place for the past 10,000 years, although the alarmists >> are >> > particularly concerned about the past 150 years, not the past 11 years. >> > >> > Dave >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 16:39:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l160d5R2022488; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:39:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l160d3Fl022427; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:39:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:39:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070205163858.02c45b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:39:19 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_55532625==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike Status: O X-Status: --=====================_55532625==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/n/a/2007/02/05/national/a1518= 38S67.DTL&feed=3Drss.news MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike By DENISE LAVOIE, Associated Press Writer Monday, February 5, 2007 (02-05) 15:18 PST BOSTON, (AP) -- An MIT professor began a hunger strike Monday to protest the university's=20 decision to deny him tenure, which he claims was based on his choice to=20 study cold fusion. Peter Hagerty, a cold fusion scientist, said he tried for two years to=20 persuade administrators at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to=20 reverse the department head's rejection of his tenure bid. "I'm not actually doing this to get tenured," Hagerty said. "I'm doing this= =20 for the reason that I wasn't tenured =AD which is scientific racism =AD and= I=20 want this institution to admit that that is the problem and make plans to=20 do something about it." After a last meal =AD two bowls of Chex cereal =AD Hagerty stood outside=20 provost L. Rafael Reif's office in protest, accompanied by about 25 friends= =20 and supporters. --=====================_55532625==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/n/a/2007/02/05/national/a1518= 38S67.DTL&feed=3Drss.news

MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike

By DENISE LAVOIE, Associated Press Writer

Monday, February 5, 2007
 
(02-05) 15:18 PST BOSTON, (AP) --

An MIT professor began a hunger strike Monday to protest the university's decision to deny him tenure, which he claims was based on his choice to study cold fusion.

Peter Hagerty, a cold fusion scientist, said he tried for two years to persuade administrators at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to reverse the department head's rejection of his tenure bid.

"I'm not actually doing this to get tenured," Hagerty said. "I'm doing this for the reason that I wasn't tenured =AD which is scientific racism =AD and I want this institution to admit that that is the problem and make plans to do something about it."

After a last meal =AD two bowls of Chex cereal =AD Hagerty stood outside provost L. Rafael Reif's office in protest, accompanied by about 25 friends and supporters.


 --=====================_55532625==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 16:50:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l160o6ob026595; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:50:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l160o5bZ026580; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:50:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:50:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=28J+JHIR4VN8IvcRJeVqj3scfhNTCNcoL93Fb/e2dtLD5lE5WrZfXR5RBtWD4oHVd6H4DP6zh1tYs/6iwlJR+v0Vog1zfHwaAZUiT557SPl0djBRMA0pAop3iqyev+BJFszfZO4O4ldhEofshKQQI3h0zLAUOLcORbPbDjPsKrA= ; X-YMail-OSG: PbITP8cVM1kw1Ve_57Rl_Ct2hti6kaLrogrJ85esbtVNJ88AqceeK5.qHt7WUDBEDg-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070205194214.01fc6680@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:46:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070205163858.02c45b38@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070205163858.02c45b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7452750==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7pPlI.A.LfG.8C9xFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7452750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After all that's happened, the Science Inquisition is still humming=20 along. I feel bad for the guy, especially as few in the media (correct me= =20 if I'm wrong) will go out to bat for him. Hopefully I am wrong. I myself got into, shall we say, an intense conversation today, while at=20 work. I mentioned Cold Fusion, and got the usual nonsense thrown back at= me. It's just not possible to deal with a mind that's sealed tightly shut. Philip. At 04:39 PM 2/5/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/n/a/2007/02/05/national/a151= 838S67.DTL&feed=3Drss.news > >MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike > > > >By DENISE LAVOIE, Associated Press Writer > >Monday, February 5, 2007 > >(02-05) 15:18 PST BOSTON, (AP) -- > >An MIT professor began a hunger strike Monday to protest the university's= =20 >decision to deny him tenure, which he claims was based on his choice to=20 >study cold fusion. > >Peter Hagerty, a cold fusion scientist, said he tried for two years to=20 >persuade administrators at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to=20 >reverse the department head's rejection of his tenure bid. > >"I'm not actually doing this to get tenured," Hagerty said. "I'm doing=20 >this for the reason that I wasn't tenured =AD which is scientific racism = =AD=20 >and I want this institution to admit that that is the problem and make=20 >plans to do something about it." > >After a last meal =AD two bowls of Chex cereal =AD Hagerty stood outside=20 >provost L. Rafael Reif's office in protest, accompanied by about 25=20 >friends and supporters. > --=====================_7452750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After all that's happened, the Science Inquisition is still humming along.  I feel bad for the guy, especially as few in the media (correct me if I'm wrong) will go out to bat for him.  Hopefully I am wrong.

I myself got into, shall we say, an intense conversation today, while at work.  I mentioned Cold Fusion, and got the usual nonsense thrown back at me. 

It's just not possible to deal with a mind that's sealed tightly shut.

Philip.


At 04:39 PM 2/5/2007 -0800, you wrote:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/n/a/2007/= 02/05/national/a151838S67.DTL&feed=3Drss.news

MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike



By DENISE LAVOIE, Associated Press Writer

Monday, February 5, 2007
 
(02-05) 15:18 PST BOSTON, (AP) --

An MIT professor began a hunger strike Monday to protest the university's decision to deny him tenure, which he claims was based on his choice to study cold fusion.

Peter Hagerty, a cold fusion scientist, said he tried for two years to persuade administrators at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to reverse the department head's rejection of his tenure bid.

"I'm not actually doing this to get tenured," Hagerty said. "I'm doing this for the reason that I wasn't tenured =AD which is scientific racism =AD and I want this institution to admit that that is the problem and make plans to do something about it."

After a last meal =AD two bowls of Chex cereal =AD Hagerty stood outside provost L. Rafael Reif's office in protest, accompanied by about 25 friends and supporters.


--=====================_7452750==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 17:02:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1612aid030562; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:02:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1612ZAs030551; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:02:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:02:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070205165627.02a03d40@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:02:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Strike In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20070205194214.01fc6680@pop> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070205163858.02c45b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20070205194214.01fc6680@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:46 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >After all that's happened, the Science Inquisition is still humming >along. I feel bad for the guy, especially as few in the media (correct me >if I'm wrong) will go out to bat for him. Hopefully I am wrong. > >I myself got into, shall we say, an intense conversation today, while at >work. I mentioned Cold Fusion, and got the usual nonsense thrown back at me. > >It's just not possible to deal with a mind that's sealed tightly shut. > >Philip. Hi Philip, I better fess up quick that I did a little guerrilla editing on that news blurb. If you click the link you'll find that the real story was slightly different - though perhaps no less serious. Your situation, as you described, is very understandable. Despite what those of us on "the frequency" know, the word on the street is that it's still sci-fi. We can change this. It's not so much that the mind is shut. It's a process of belief systems and the influence of mass media. CF has reached such mythic proportions as sci-fi that you could have the most expert nuke physicist Ph.D with a second degree in electrochemistry who had performed experiments to the "t" in the same place where you stood at work today - and he or she would get the same reaction. It's bigger than most of us realize. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 18:00:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1620CI6017107; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:00:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1620AoH017097; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:00:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:00:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c74992$846c4750$3a027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:00:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C74960.394CEFE0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Srike Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C74960.394CEFE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0040_01C74960.394CEFE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C74960.394CEFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteve Krivit wrote.. It's not so much that the mind is shut. It's a process of belief systems = and the influence of mass media. Howdy Steven, You have the fundamentals .. but ..CF lacks the charismatic person that = can sell it. Until that person emerges, it slumbers. An example is Henry = Ford. Pure energy, design and build thinking combined with marketeering = genius. Right place at the right time in history. Everybody thinks they = can do it given the opportunity.. but.. only a few have what it takes.. = just a few.. there never has been but a few. If that person emerges on = the CF scene we will see CF move forward. If not.... It is the person, not the science that is holding things up. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C74960.394CEFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steve Krivit wrote..

It's not so much that the mind is shut. It's a process of belief = systems=20
and the influence of mass media.

 

Howdy Steven,

You have the fundamentals .. but ..CF lacks the charismatic person = that can=20 sell it. Until that person emerges, it slumbers. An example is Henry = Ford. =20 Pure energy, design and build thinking combined with marketeering = genius. Right=20 place at the right time in history. Everybody thinks they can do it = given the=20 opportunity.. but.. only a few have what it takes.. just a few.. there = never has=20 been but a few. If that person emerges on the CF scene we will see CF = move=20 forward. If not....

 It is the person, not the science that is holding things = up.

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C74960.394CEFE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C74960.394CEFE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003e01c74992$83dfbec0$3a027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C74960.394CEFE0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 19:11:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l163BHko010483; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:11:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l163BGKP010472; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:11:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:11:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=KByBaokT+R0qu1wD2QSk7duf1DiUxKF7b/n7Rv2VKFXbnyJdhoPZLIZmaS2ibY3ATv21teT4EOZD6CRnZmQd3ihxOMt4zQDOfFrlktt/NRmDKUG35pm6Ya6ix4oag9usuiaVzxKGR/ZMF0eWQp0yh8lYwyd9xC5HZs48sywniug= ; X-YMail-OSG: W9BIzRcVM1nk.3OC3ZvqFKoLEjsdGaBLZbKHSOF3OWrlgDItp2ah0Nv2SrfIpF24Zw-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070205220725.01efb760@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:07:45 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Srike In-Reply-To: <004301c74992$846c4750$3a027841@xptower> References: <004301c74992$846c4750$3a027841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rush Limbaugh!!!!!! That's who!!!! P. At 08:00 PM 2/5/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Steve Krivit wrote.. > >It's not so much that the mind is shut. It's a process of belief systems >and the influence of mass media. > > > >Howdy Steven, > >You have the fundamentals .. but ..CF lacks the charismatic person that >can sell it. Until that person emerges, it slumbers. An example is Henry >Ford. Pure energy, design and build thinking combined with marketeering >genius. Right place at the right time in history. Everybody thinks they >can do it given the opportunity.. but.. only a few have what it takes.. >just a few.. there never has been but a few. If that person emerges on the >CF scene we will see CF move forward. If not.... > > It is the person, not the science that is holding things up. > >Richard > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 00:24:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l168OZaR002544; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:24:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l168OWpb002527; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:24:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:24:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 03:22:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l168OQUJ002473 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Gravitational mass and the Magnetic Monopole Status: O X-Status: Musings on Gravitational Mass and the elusive Magnetic Monopole. Ask yourself this: Does the Earth's gravity do work on a golfball moving in a circular orbit around the Earth? I don't think so. Now consider an electron moving in circle in a plane perpendicular to a uniform magnetic field. The magnetic field also does no work on the electron. The similarity suggests gravity is a 3-dimensional version of this 2-d magnetic example. Suppose the Earth is a magnetic monopole so its gravitational field is the field of a monopole. Then gravitational mass is the monopolar expression of magnetism. Magnetic Monopoles have eluded us because we think they must be exotic. In fact they are rather mundane. Note: Maxwell's equations of EM only need to be tweaked slightly to allow for magnetic monopoles. (see reference below) Harry -------- from http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/magnet_university/maxwells_equations.htm The Structure of the Magnetic Field del·B = 0 B is the magnetic flux (in units of tesla, T). Equivalent integral form: †AB·dA = 0 dA is the area of a differential square on the surface A with an outward facing surface normal defining its direction. Note: like the electric field's integral form, this equation only works if the integral is done over a closed surface. This equation is related to the magnetic field's structure because it states that given any volume element, the net magnitude of the vector components that point outward from the surface must be equal to the net magnitude of the vector components that point inward. Structurally, this means that the magnetic field lines must be closed loops. Another way of putting it is that the field lines cannot originate from somewhere; attempting to follow the lines backwards to their source or forward to their terminus ultimately leads back to the starting position. This implies that there are no magnetic monopoles. If a monopole were to be discovered, this equation would need to be modified to read del·B = rm where rm would be the density of magnetic monopoles. ------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 00:51:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l168p1FS026566; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:51:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l168oxCA026550; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:50:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:50:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070206005039.0290c3b8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 00:51:10 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit In-Reply-To: <004301c74992$846c4750$3a027841@xptower> References: <004301c74992$846c4750$3a027841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Srike Status: O X-Status: Philip, I guess when I got to thinking more about my shamefully devious creative impulse here...this didn't just come out of nowhere. I can see why this is, unfortunately, believable. Based on what Peter Hagelstein as well as what Keith Johnson have told me about their treatment at "the Institute," this isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination. I just watched Keith's movie, Breaking Symmetry. I'd say it's more of a documentary rather than entertainment. But some nice rated R scenes, though. s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 04:48:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l16CmRfq031585; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 04:48:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l16CmOjG031566; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 04:48:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 04:48:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=WcIiH6pS5on8iV+oenAQ6hvGGhh89YxO1Ix6fVkDwG7j1Kp/eavU09n/afw8Htpsfl4E+ZxvBbowHQDXyTlYEs0CF1/QtnfPoEPnFZGmC8G/5ACTUK6Tnyz2SoBevkglCupn2kMjFEc2O2xU7GNscVeb/zWlQd0S7LWpDdzJIZ0= ; X-YMail-OSG: YMTxxp0VM1m5.wOeO8Ni3c.FKAKy3UoZBJFTOA.Oy.cWDS1U9gn7eS.bZOdvejrnMQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070206074059.01efdc88@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:44:46 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Srike In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070206005039.0290c3b8@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <004301c74992$846c4750$3a027841@xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20070206005039.0290c3b8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve, The word of the day seems to be "dogma" whether it be in science, art, religion... My take on all this is to be silent - to shut my mouth - and observe... only opening my mouth when I sense receptivity. This is where intuition comes into play. From time to time my ego gets the better of me and naturally I "suffer" for it. Best thing is to be internally content with what one knows... and what one doesn't know; two sides of the same coin. Seeking continues... P. At 12:51 AM 2/6/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Philip, > >I guess when I got to thinking more about my shamefully devious creative >impulse here...this didn't just come out of nowhere. I can see why this >is, unfortunately, believable. Based on what Peter Hagelstein as well as >what Keith Johnson have told me about their treatment at "the Institute," >this isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination. I just watched >Keith's movie, Breaking Symmetry. I'd say it's more of a documentary >rather than entertainment. But some nice rated R scenes, though. > > >s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 05:55:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l16DtEId006819; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:55:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l16DtBts006798; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:55:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:55:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIT Professor Begins Hunger Srike Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 07:54:46 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20070206074059.01efdc88@pop> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Philip, ... > The word of the day seems to be "dogma" whether it be > in science, art, religion... My take on all this is > to be silent - to shut my mouth - and observe... only > opening my mouth when I sense receptivity. This is > where intuition comes into play. From time to time > my ego gets the better of me and naturally I "suffer" > for it. > > Best thing is to be internally content with what one > knows... and what one doesn't know; two sides of the > same coin. > > Seeking continues... > > P. > Well said. Reminds me of an old saying: Grant me serenity over the things I can not understand, The courage to learn the things that I can, And the wisdom to know the difference. Regards, --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@OrionWorks.com www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 22:27:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l176R2xD027096; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:27:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l176Qt95027073; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:26:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:26:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C97110.2050105@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:26:24 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2PPrpD.A.0mG.uEXyFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: mass consciousness exercises Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; Pat Bailey sent me an email that may be of interest to some of you, it is a mass consciousness exercise, focusing on the government's poor treatment of our space brothers. It will be held Feb 16 & 23 at 10 AM CST. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 23:37:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l177bbHv010761; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:37:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l177bZ2x010752; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:37:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:37:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 01:37:28 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Climate Change Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; In case you missed it, this man was just interviewed on C to C AM, http://www.nrsp.com/people-timothy-ball.html , he is a climate scientist who contends that what we are seeing is the result of a natural cycle. I have previously mentioned the book, Unstoppable Climate Change by Avery and Singer which says the same thing. The story that really intrigues me is that there are big rocks flying into the sun from a direction orthogonal to the planetary ecliptic. Coincident with these hits are large sunspots on the other side of the Sun. This story was reported by James McCanney. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 00:06:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1786Agf023767; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:06:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17869ai023752; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:06:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:06:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:05:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l17863a1023711 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change Status: RO X-Status: Thomas, global temperature is the result of just two things: incident solar power, and ability of the planet to retain the heat. Failing to see that both phenomenons are equally important amounts to wearing blinds. The more solar power we get, the more we must reduce, or at least stop increasing, the ability of the planet to retain the heat. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: [Vo]: Climate Change > Vortexians; > > In case you missed it, this man was just interviewed on C to C AM, > http://www.nrsp.com/people-timothy-ball.html , he is a climate scientist > who contends that what we are seeing is the result of a natural cycle. I > have previously mentioned the book, Unstoppable Climate Change by Avery > and Singer which says the same thing. > > The story that really intrigues me is that there are big rocks flying > into the sun from a direction orthogonal to the planetary ecliptic. > Coincident with these hits are large sunspots on the other side of the > Sun. This story was reported by James McCanney. > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 02:18:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17AIBwc004276; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 02:18:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17AIA0G004270; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 02:18:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 02:18:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d3301c74aa1$4494c8e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <011901c7497b$43f9d500$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:18:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l17AI8Vg004255 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Now you mention it, anybody knows if anything positive came out of their Toyota/Technova funded CF lab in Nice, France? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:13 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) > Hi Robin, > >> >What you are missing is that spending money on reducing unimportant GHG >> >emissions could be spent on technology for surviving natural climate >> >change. The IPCC is shooting themselves in the head. >> > >> >Dave >> >> What you are missing is that the money would be better spent on CF, so >> that we both reduce GHG emissions, and increase wealth. > > CF would fall under the category of "technology for surviving natural > climate change." BTW, I used to work for one of Pons and Fleischmann's > financiers as finance manager for some of his other businesses. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 03:02:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17B2lNv015259; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:02:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17B2k57015248; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:02:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:02:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d6001c74aa7$7fe16420$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:02:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l17B2iNu015224 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Climate Change Status: O X-Status: > Thomas, global temperature is the result of just two things Correction: until our non solar heat output (= non renewable energy consumption) becomes sizeable compared to the solar input, as previously discussed. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change > Thomas, global temperature is the result of just two things: incident solar power, and ability of the planet to retain the heat. Failing to see that both phenomenons are equally important amounts to wearing blinds. The more solar power we get, the more we must reduce, or at least stop increasing, the ability of the planet to retain the heat. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "thomas malloy" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:37 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Climate Change > > >> Vortexians; >> >> In case you missed it, this man was just interviewed on C to C AM, >> http://www.nrsp.com/people-timothy-ball.html , he is a climate scientist >> who contends that what we are seeing is the result of a natural cycle. I >> have previously mentioned the book, Unstoppable Climate Change by Avery >> and Singer which says the same thing. >> >> The story that really intrigues me is that there are big rocks flying >> into the sun from a direction orthogonal to the planetary ecliptic. >> Coincident with these hits are large sunspots on the other side of the >> Sun. This story was reported by James McCanney. >> >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 09:10:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17H0pEm002085; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:00:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17H0cEj001908; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:00:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:00:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207111219.03676848@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:17:02 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l17H0UYW001796 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Once a Dream Fuel, Palm Oil May Be an Eco-Nightmare Status: O X-Status: Yet another bio-fuel turns out be an environmental nightmare. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/business/worldbusiness/31biofuel.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=f15ff4f804f7d47a&ex=1170997200 QUOTES: "AMSTERDAM, Jan. 25 ­ Just a few years ago, politicians and environmental groups in the Netherlands were thrilled by the early and rapid adoption of “sustainable energy,” achieved in part by coaxing electrical plants to use biofuel ­ in particular, palm oil from Southeast Asia. But last year, when scientists studied practices at palm plantations in Indonesia and Malaysia, this green fairy tale began to look more like an environmental nightmare. Rising demand for palm oil in Europe brought about the clearing of huge tracts of Southeast Asian rainforest and the overuse of chemical fertilizer there. Worse still, the scientists said, space for the expanding palm plantations was often created by draining and burning peatland, which sent huge amounts of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 09:21:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17HKOfd030303; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:21:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17H0jZL001986; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:00:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:00:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207092830.0364d940@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:43:48 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) In-Reply-To: <0d3301c74aa1$4494c8e0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <011901c7497b$43f9d500$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <0d3301c74aa1$4494c8e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Now you mention it, anybody knows if anything positive came out of >their Toyota/Technova funded CF lab in Nice, France? Many positive results came from this effort: 1. Johnson-Matthey learned how to make Pd that works nearly every time. They characterize the material in detail. Unfortunately, they are the only ones who know anything about it and they have not published a single word. Toyota and Johnson-Matthey were never able to come to an agreement on sharing information or joint development, according to my sources. 2. Technova learned to trigger massive excess heat and heat after death in nearly every cell. 3. In the end they made boiling cells that produced as much as 74 watts continuously for 40 to 150 days. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RouletteTresultsofi.pdf Unfortunately, after the program founder and main supporter Mr. Toyoda died, the project was killed by harsh political opposition. That's what Martin Fleischmann and others told me. Toyoda was one of the sons of the Toyota Company founder and he had enough influence to ward off the skeptics. The "failure" of the NHE program also soured some of the Japanese leadership on cold fusion. I put failure in quotes because the program actually did produce excess heat in the last stage, in the experiments conducted by Melvin Miles. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMcalorimetrb.pdf In the final report the directors of the laboratory lied about Miles results and claimed that he produced no excess heat. Japanese skeptics at high levels are now trying to kill off the transmutation research at Mitsubishi, the National Synchrotron Laboratory and Tokyo National University. I expect they will succeed, using the same arguments used to destroy cold fusion in the U.S. by the DoE reviewers, i.e., this is a disgrace to science and these results "are not to be believed." See: http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique Pathological skepticism is alive and well in Japan. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 09:47:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17HFMhe024698; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:15:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17HFEQ9024545; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:15:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:15:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:14:28 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > The more solar power we get, the more we must reduce, or at least stop increasing, the ability of the planet to retain the heat. > >and later: > Correction: until our non solar heat output (= non renewable energy consumption) becomes sizable compared to the solar input, as previously discussed. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "thomas malloy" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:37 AM >Subject: [Vo]: Climate Change > > This assumes that we can do anything about the amount of heat retained by the planet. You know what happens when you assume? Dr. Ball also pointed out that plant growth is stimulated by an increase in CO2 levels, and that the plant's water requirements are decreased, which is an interesting observation. The point of this exchange is: A: there's no point in getting exercised about something that you can't change, B: the system has self correcting factors built into it, C: the hysterical global warming crowd has a hidden agenda and they are willing to enforce political correctness on the scientific community, climate scientists who descent from the P C line are cowered into submission by the with holding of research funds, tenure and passing grades, D: the hysterics dismiss people like me as lacking the credentials to comment on the matter, and they aren't willing to debate people like Dr. Ball who has the credentials. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 10:18:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17IIlDj005889; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:18:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17IIj28005874; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:18:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:18:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:18:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l17IIhCO005851 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > You know what happens when you assume? It makes an ass out of u and me? Dr Ball won't make the headlines by pointing out that plant growth is stimulated by an increase in CO2 levels I am afraid. Indeed there is some self correction built in the system, so what? You really believe climate can't change drastically, one way or another, under human influence? If you read less politics and more physics, you could make your own opinion. End of this useless discussion as far as I am concerned. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> The more solar power we get, the more we must reduce, or at least stop increasing, the ability of the planet to retain the heat. >> >>and later: >> > Correction: until our non solar heat output (= non renewable energy consumption) becomes sizable compared to the solar input, as previously discussed. > >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "thomas malloy" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:37 AM >>Subject: [Vo]: Climate Change >> >> > This assumes that we can do anything about the amount of heat retained > by the planet. You know what happens when you assume? > Dr. Ball also pointed out that plant growth is stimulated by an increase > in CO2 levels, and that the plant's water requirements are decreased, > which is an interesting observation. > > The point of this exchange is: > A: there's no point in getting exercised about something that you can't > change, > B: the system has self correcting factors built into it, > C: the hysterical global warming crowd has a hidden agenda and they are > willing to enforce political correctness on the scientific community, > climate scientists who descent from the P C line are cowered into > submission by the with holding of research funds, tenure and passing grades, > D: the hysterics dismiss people like me as lacking the credentials to > comment on the matter, and they aren't willing to debate people like Dr. > Ball who has the credentials. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 10:29:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17ISmCF014094; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:28:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17ISk6B014077; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:28:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:28:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oyoSLE5DpjLiNEjj7n0Ny8R41QiTbywwTx0JTaYmk6qIZLxuSKt/9eeT5tzXWRtms7E2v/M1AqZhK0eTLHrSn8aXK1p3QcXuS8VoMgpwWVsGR7lm2oeSJqvyuzmyrzWPO/OqMx9B19483exdYekR86BGBO2CgX/9GXhIDUg+l5M= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:28:37 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Once a Dream Fuel, Palm Oil May Be an Eco-Nightmare In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207111219.03676848@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207111219.03676848@mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l17ISiNp014051 Resent-Message-ID: <7cRaYC.A.5bD.dphyFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: its all in teh execution. On 2/7/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Yet another bio-fuel turns out be an environmental nightmare. See: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/31/business/worldbusiness/31biofuel.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=f15ff4f804f7d47a&ex=1170997200 > > QUOTES: > > "AMSTERDAM, Jan. 25 ­ Just a few years ago, > politicians and environmental groups in the > Netherlands were thrilled by the early and rapid > adoption of "sustainable energy," achieved in > part by coaxing electrical plants to use biofuel > ­ in particular, palm oil from Southeast Asia. > > But last year, when scientists studied practices > at palm plantations in Indonesia and Malaysia, > this green fairy tale began to look more like an environmental nightmare. > > Rising demand for palm oil in Europe brought > about the clearing of huge tracts of Southeast > Asian rainforest and the overuse of chemical fertilizer there. > > Worse still, the scientists said, space for the > expanding palm plantations was often created by > draining and burning peatland, which sent huge > amounts of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. . . ." > > - Jed > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 10:53:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17IrdP4027548; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:53:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17IrcDM027528; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:53:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:53:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0e7d01c74ae9$4732dea0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <011901c7497b$43f9d500$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <0d3301c74aa1$4494c8e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207092830.0364d940@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:53:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l17Iraq3027508 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Long time no talk Jed, you are dearly missed you-know-where. Thanks for the rich historical details, but am I correct in understanding that nothing positive _actually came out_ of it, in spite of various hints and possibilities of a different outcome? Although I agree to a large extent that scientific establishment inertia is a problem, it seems to me that the story you related below contains an amazing lot of lame looking excuses and conspiracy theory looking stuff. Call me a pathological skeptic if you wish, but I find it hard to believe that the people who worked in that lab have decided to take their secrets to the grave, considering the importance of the stuff. Any possibility that what they told you could be hogwash designed only to try and save their reputation? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>Now you mention it, anybody knows if anything positive came out of >>their Toyota/Technova funded CF lab in Nice, France? > > Many positive results came from this effort: > > 1. Johnson-Matthey learned how to make Pd that works nearly every > time. They characterize the material in detail. Unfortunately, they > are the only ones who know anything about it and they have not > published a single word. Toyota and Johnson-Matthey were never able > to come to an agreement on sharing information or joint development, > according to my sources. > > 2. Technova learned to trigger massive excess heat and heat after > death in nearly every cell. > > 3. In the end they made boiling cells that produced as much as 74 > watts continuously for 40 to 150 days. See: > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RouletteTresultsofi.pdf > > Unfortunately, after the program founder and main supporter Mr. > Toyoda died, the project was killed by harsh political opposition. > That's what Martin Fleischmann and others told me. Toyoda was one of > the sons of the Toyota Company founder and he had enough influence to > ward off the skeptics. > > The "failure" of the NHE program also soured some of the Japanese > leadership on cold fusion. I put failure in quotes because the > program actually did produce excess heat in the last stage, in the > experiments conducted by Melvin Miles. See: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMcalorimetrb.pdf > > In the final report the directors of the laboratory lied about Miles > results and claimed that he produced no excess heat. > > Japanese skeptics at high levels are now trying to kill off the > transmutation research at Mitsubishi, the National Synchrotron > Laboratory and Tokyo National University. I expect they will succeed, > using the same arguments used to destroy cold fusion in the U.S. by > the DoE reviewers, i.e., this is a disgrace to science and these > results "are not to be believed." See: > > http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique > > Pathological skepticism is alive and well in Japan. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 12:43:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17Khlct028443; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:43:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17KhjRA028428; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:43:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:43:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CA39EE.4010008@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:43:26 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4QSgnD.A.I8G.AojyFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > >Dr Ball won't make the headlines by pointing out that plant growth is stimulated by an increase in CO2 levels I am afraid. > The increased plant growth is a self correcting element that's engaging that it won't be reported is because the press has the same agenda that you do, and can't be bothered with the facts. >Indeed there is some self correction built in the system, so what? You really believe climate can't change drastically, one way or another, under human influence? > The climate is changing because the Sun is putting out more energy. Only a fool believes that we can do anything about it. >If you read less politics and more physics, you could make your own opinion. End of this useless discussion as far as I am concerned. > I listen to plenty of politics, which is why I'm so upset that these idiots are muckering about with the economy. You're dismissive attitude is the same as that of the people who want to fire the climate scientist who questions global warming. Worse, you have the idiot liberal politicians who want to reinstate the fairness doctrine to suppress conservative talk radio, which is one of the few venues in which this nonsense is questioned. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 13:37:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17LbD30026880; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:37:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17LbCB6026871; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:37:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:37:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207154701.036ff220@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:37:06 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) In-Reply-To: <0e7d01c74ae9$4732dea0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <011901c7497b$43f9d500$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <0d3301c74aa1$4494c8e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207092830.0364d940@mindspring.com> <0e7d01c74ae9$4732dea0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Thanks for the rich historical details, but am I correct in >understanding that nothing positive _actually came out_ of it . . . That is incorrect. See the paper I referenced earlier: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RouletteTresultsofi.pdf 74 watts continuously for 40 to 150 days is positive, and it actually came out of this project. These results are not widely known and they have had no effect on society, but that is a political problem, not scientific. By the same token, the National Cold Fusion Institute established by the state of Utah proved beyond doubt that cold fusion is a nuclear process and that it produces tritium. All debate should have ended when the Institute published its results. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/WillFGtritiumgen.pdf No one pays attention to these results, but that has no bearing on the quality or fundamental importance of them. >. . . in spite of various hints and possibilities of a different outcome? The paper by Roulette et al. is not a hint or possibility. It is proven fact. >Although I agree to a large extent that scientific establishment >inertia is a problem, it seems to me that the story you related >below contains an amazing lot of lame looking excuses and conspiracy >theory looking stuff. There is no conspiracy involved, no cover-up, and no mystery. The people who attacked this research and canceled the program did so openly and boldly, and they told Fleischmann, me, and many other people their reasons. The fellow who published the final report in Japanese claiming that Melvin Miles had no excess heat published that statement in an official government report. Albeit only in Japanese, and he was not thrilled when I translated it into English and gave Mel a copy. Apparently he does not have guts to lie to Mel in English, but it was still a bold lie, as were the lies published by MIT and the DoE. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LENRCANRthedoelies.pdf These people are not subtle. > Call me a pathological skeptic if you wish, but I find it hard to > believe that the people who worked in that lab have decided to take > their secrets to the grave . . . What are you talking about? The results are published at LENR-CANR.org. No one took any secrets to the grave. Of course there are many details that I would love to have, and I would love to have some of those Johnson Matthey cathodes, but they are unavailable for three reasons: 1. Johnson Matthey and Toyota never came to an agreement on sharing information and eventually they had a huge falling out. That is one of the reasons the program came to an abrupt halt. All of the material analysis was done by Johnson Matthey and not one word of it has been leaked as far as I know. The precious metals industry is famous for keeping secrets. 2. The people who know the details at Toyota are middle-class researchers. They were told that if they revealed anything more than was published, and violated their employment secrecy agreements, they would be sued and they would never work as scientists again anywhere in the world. They were told this emphatically by people described to me as "corporate goons" from one of the world's largest, most powerful and ruthless companies. 3. Martin Fleischmann had a good deal of detailed information in his house in France, which the company originally agreed he could keep. It was on paper, not in a computer. Apparently, the company changed its mind and decided he could not keep it after all, because someone broke into the house and stole all every scrap of paper. This was no ordinary thief, since he left cash and valuables, and took only experimental data. Consider this: When the program was underway, a top official at the APS attacked the Toyota program as Branch Davidian lunacy (Francis Slakey, New Scientist, September 1993). Other distinguished scientists and leading journalists in the U.S. and Europe asserted again and again that Pons and Fleischmann were criminals, or insane, or that cold fusion had never been replicated. During this time, the Navy had ordered all of its researchers not to discuss cold fusion attend any conferences or publish any of their results, and it ordered its most distinguished electrochemist to work in a menial job in the stock room. All this history is well know, and not disputed by anyone. Given that the US establishment is run by such ignorant jerks, why do you doubt that similar people were in control in Japan back then? They were, and they still are. They are trying to crush Mizuno, Mitsubishi and the other holdouts who are still trying to do cold fusion research. They probably will succeed. >. . . considering the importance of the stuff. The people who suppress cold fusion do not consider it important. They think it is fraudulent, and they are certain that all cold fusion researchers are charlatans trying to steal from the public and blacken the reputation of science. > Any possibility that what they told you could be hogwash designed > only to try and save their reputation? Do you really think that people devoted 10 to 18 years of their lives to this, and published dozens of papers, but they were kidding the whole time? Why would someone like Fleischmann or Mizuno tell me these things? Their reputations are already in tatters. Things could not get any worse for them. I doubt there are any scientists in modern history whose reputations have been more savagely attacked. What more can the Washington Post, Nature or Time magazine do to them? (I shouldn't ask -- they will think of some fresh outrage.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 13:50:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17LokOu006448; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:50:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17LojoH006438; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:50:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:50:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207163740.036ffcc0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:50:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change In-Reply-To: <45CA39EE.4010008@usfamily.net> References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA39EE.4010008@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>Dr Ball won't make the headlines by pointing out that plant growth >>is stimulated by an increase in CO2 levels I am afraid. >The increased plant growth is a self correcting element . . . It is self correcting in a sense, but before the correction runs its course, it will kill off most present species, flood New York City, Venice, Florida and Bangladesh, and return the world to the state it was in the age of the dinosaurs. As far as nature is concerned that state is no better or worse than the present, but the people who survived the catastrophe will not enjoy it. To call this "self-correcting" is like saying that famine and disease are nature's way of correcting overpopulation. Or that the spread of the Sahara and Gobi deserts is the "correction" nature applies when people destroy the water table and cut down all the trees. >>Indeed there is some self correction built in the system, so what? >>You really believe climate can't change drastically, one way or >>another, under human influence? >The climate is changing because the Sun is putting out more energy. >Only a fool believes that we can do anything about it. I doubt very much that the Sun is putting out more energy, but if it is we could easily fix the problem by spreading large Mylar parasols in space. This calls for a space elevator, but the prospects for an elevator are better than ever. It is now estimated to cost around $6 billion, it will take about 5 years, and it can probably be done with materials that should be available in a few years. That method also might work for conventional global warming, but I doubt it. In any case, we can easily reduce fossil fuel consumption by 50 to 90% with existing technology such as plug-in hybrid automobiles, and we can eliminate it altogether in a few decades, so why bother with things like space elevators? This would not cost money. On the contrary, it would save fantastic amounts, after the initial investments. As one expert said of compact fluorescent light bulbs: "this is not a free lunch; it is a lunch you are paid to eat." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 13:59:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l17LxABJ015750; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:59:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l17Lx8Dq015733; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:59:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:59:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=IgF+zresgHOWJ6K0ZMoyQR/71gVzTM7loRgvdavXhhVf/2OtxlrPUQClvpN4GUpWY9xCseSsNTQMOY6BPxajxMZwGi0/dNzl7io9m7jFfHTarfqOOxb/OSiNVz7RddUjXXZx0SeSvAZ1uGuUcx92ceAR7rOUTraN0vnlCdwC/uQ= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:59:08 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Climate Change In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207163740.036ffcc0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5459_19021203.1170885548428" References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA39EE.4010008@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207163740.036ffcc0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_5459_19021203.1170885548428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Actually I think I recall that sun light measurements over the decades are showing that less sun is reaching the surface at least. On 2/8/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > thomas malloy wrote: > > >>Dr Ball won't make the headlines by pointing out that plant growth > >>is stimulated by an increase in CO2 levels I am afraid. > >The increased plant growth is a self correcting element . . . > > It is self correcting in a sense, but before the correction runs its > course, it will kill off most present species, flood New York City, > Venice, Florida and Bangladesh, and return the world to the state it > was in the age of the dinosaurs. As far as nature is concerned that > state is no better or worse than the present, but the people who > survived the catastrophe will not enjoy it. > > To call this "self-correcting" is like saying that famine and disease > are nature's way of correcting overpopulation. Or that the spread of > the Sahara and Gobi deserts is the "correction" nature applies when > people destroy the water table and cut down all the trees. > > > >>Indeed there is some self correction built in the system, so what? > >>You really believe climate can't change drastically, one way or > >>another, under human influence? > >The climate is changing because the Sun is putting out more energy. > >Only a fool believes that we can do anything about it. > > I doubt very much that the Sun is putting out more energy, but if it > is we could easily fix the problem by spreading large Mylar parasols > in space. This calls for a space elevator, but the prospects for an > elevator are better than ever. It is now estimated to cost around $6 > billion, it will take about 5 years, and it can probably be done with > materials that should be available in a few years. > > That method also might work for conventional global warming, but I > doubt it. In any case, we can easily reduce fossil fuel consumption > by 50 to 90% with existing technology such as plug-in hybrid > automobiles, and we can eliminate it altogether in a few decades, so > why bother with things like space elevators? This would not cost > money. On the contrary, it would save fantastic amounts, after the > initial investments. As one expert said of compact fluorescent light > bulbs: "this is not a free lunch; it is a lunch you are paid to eat." > > - Jed > > ------=_Part_5459_19021203.1170885548428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Actually I think I recall that sun light measurements over the decades are showing that less sun is reaching the surface at least.

On 2/8/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
thomas malloy wrote:

>>Dr Ball won't make the headlines by pointing out that plant growth
>>is stimulated by an increase in CO2 levels I am afraid.
>The increased plant growth is a self correcting element . . .

It is self correcting in a sense, but before the correction runs its
course, it will kill off most present species, flood New York City,
Venice, Florida and Bangladesh, and return the world to the state it
was in the age of the dinosaurs. As far as nature is concerned that
state is no better or worse than the present, but the people who
survived the catastrophe will not enjoy it.

To call this "self-correcting" is like saying that famine and disease
are nature's way of correcting overpopulation. Or that the spread of
the Sahara and Gobi deserts is the "correction" nature applies when
people destroy the water table and cut down all the trees.


>>Indeed there is some self correction built in the system, so what?
>>You really believe climate can't change drastically, one way or
>>another, under human influence?
>The climate is changing because the Sun is putting out more energy.
>Only a fool believes that we can do anything about it.

I doubt very much that the Sun is putting out more energy, but if it
is we could easily fix the problem by spreading large Mylar parasols
in space. This calls for a space elevator, but the prospects for an
elevator are better than ever. It is now estimated to cost around $6
billion, it will take about 5 years, and it can probably be done with
materials that should be available in a few years.

That method also might work for conventional global warming, but I
doubt it. In any case, we can easily reduce fossil fuel consumption
by 50 to 90% with existing technology such as plug-in hybrid
automobiles, and we can eliminate it altogether in a few decades, so
why bother with things like space elevators? This would not cost
money. On the contrary, it would save fantastic amounts, after the
initial investments. As one expert said of compact fluorescent light
bulbs: "this is not a free lunch; it is a lunch you are paid to eat."

- Jed


------=_Part_5459_19021203.1170885548428-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 17:02:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1812FZB019242; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:02:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18129Jk019136; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:02:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:02:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=moIUWiNDNTphr+8AQ+ejZV+jeCEHQLU9Xp7St0WdeRcdnyOrb0PlSnGkp9Q6MhBHLmYj8ORJe6XvuPl+fiWbb7QSOQ/d6FcGLNy35xC+7CGKhz8tbq9WV51jGnwuecnH9IzzrKXL1zQmhVbkOBm+ui+YOTDZWPZ6k7Eve19WoJo= ; Message-ID: <20070208010208.48613.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Be.f6VgVM1lmrIbyj_0dOBsA766hCNh8kh67PCHKYYaHGuPRrBqp9OP_Cwo2avVvBbPND7aaBZSITGiUQ5A0hCvB3gwSTybbyaOTdDh0xc.f4aLJxqVzboN5Zw.EkWO_GBCCXFyYcsYtyuk- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.3 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.7 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:02:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l18127Yi019115 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Paper Planes Status: O X-Status: This is not exactly a book review-reread of "Virtual Light" - which was the first novel in what has become known as the 'bridge trilogy' by SciFi visionary (and one of the more infamous 'Nam-era draft-dodgers) William Gibson. This post is really more about bio-mimicry and future of (non-origami) paper planes - of the 747 variety. Not to mention- the future of the future. 'Virtual' was a fine read and like all of Gibson's books, had prescient technological underpinnings. His timing was a bit off on almost every detail - as is generally the case with prophets. Prophets can occasionally see glimpses of the future in surprising detail, but almost never get the timing down. An explanation for this temporal shortcoming, from biblical to blasphemy, is that "the future" may already exist in potential - but in an ongoing balance. Like the French, all humanoids may exist in timeless state of past imperfect, present subjunctive and future conditional. Despite Gibson's success as a writer - in which almost every book (~15 million novels in print) features AI or something similar in the way of advanced computing, he never had a special relationship with PCs. Reportedly "Neuromancer" was written on a Selectric. Go figure. Anyway, one of the small details in 'Virtual' was a new kind of (old) structural material: to wit *paper* - that's right PAPER. The novel featured future bike couriers (no gasoline available in this dystopia - but amazing computers) whose 'ride' was constructed mostly from an advanced paper, instead of steel or carbon fiber. Many readers must have thought this was just too far-out for the time - 1993 - but very soon thereafter the technical article below was published re: the very same paper material - but made by bugs - "bacterial cellulose". In many ways, especially cost, this material is superior to graphite fiber and has a 10-1 performance advantage over the best steel. It is a nanomaterial, but not necessarily man-made as the "manufacturer" itself is nano (Acetobacter xylinum) One of the characters in Virtual Light, a gal of flexible morals named Chevette Wahington, who was pretty much the predecessor for Jessica Alba's character in the cult TV favorite - 'Dark Angel' - has one of these paper bicycles which is almost theft-proof, having its own AI computer. You would have thought it would be a self-powered bike too, but nope -- this is no utopia and apparently Gibson (in a strange twist for a SciFi-guy) did see a future generally obeying one set of Laws (LoT). In 'Virtual' Gibson takes us to a near future of ... opps a couple of years ago - 2005. Like I said, he got the timing way off. Welcome to NoCal and SoCal, the uneasy sister-states of what used to be the Golden State: California. The millennium has come and gone leaving in its wake stunned cash-poor survivors, but somehow with great computers, nearly weightless bikes, and not much else. Anyway the structural paper article is here: http://www.iupac.org/publications/pac/1997/pdf/6911x2453.pdf "Production of bacterial cellulose by agitation culture systems" by Takayasu Tsuchida and Fumihiro Yoshinaga Abstract: An economical mass production system of bacterial cellulose (BC) on agitated culture was constructed. We frst conducted screening of BC producers in agitated culture. A total of 2096 strains were isolated from natural sources and the best BC producing strain, BPR2001, was selected. Of the several organic nitrogen sources used to supplement the culture medium, corn steep liquor (CSL) was found to be the most suitable for BC production. END of abstract. All we need now - to accomplish an improved subjunctive-conditional-future, and to convert the pending Gibsonian dystopia into a near utopia, is the advanced power supply. Duh. Otherwise, we risk another dystopia, the post-human vision of the "Matrix" ... where we ARE the power supply Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 17:04:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1814ZgK015250; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:04:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1814XP3015169; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:04:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:04:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=pmInWog/A5gnsDkXFT/3jnWHkxnhkywygEi6pS5zz+T+nFJ11rvVEl7IXDxynxQyyVoja0NQD42d9FNruMDc41eR0Yw15U9GER69J3GarClWEEauM1iSTWNukkInsO4OaLmkeKjL2pnupujgXIrCTop6DEhKxTR9sWPmXCALuio= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:04:32 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: EEStor More Status: O X-Status: http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 18:40:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l182eHUh008603; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:40:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l182eFGh008584; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:40:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:40:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CA8D89.6040305@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:40:09 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_4pp8.A.AGC.O2oyFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed Status: O X-Status: OK, I admit it, this is pretty boring. But you folks are the only people I can think of who might possibly respond to this with something other than a glazed look and the question, "You did what? Uh ... why?" The answer, of course, is "just cause I wanted to see for myself". Basement measurement of the speed of an EM wave (sorry, it's not really _light_, just a wave in a wire): http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_light_1.html Home office measurement of the speed of sound: http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_sound_1.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 18:49:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l182n3hi018576; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:49:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l182n1Rs018563; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:49:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=AFQofLvxLJDIAq8T3DfyVNxU5wUi/stfgXOvIKi8MWafumsEBB1mUIFJuWypquB4B3NCHwA/dFcsA6FcLX8KVNXE8cE4n7Nk9zDzBKikoQI3/aq7lT0bzroHTvagqkkEAFLKTUA2oxPMnKoMKlPj0INEae+JJr4padDCrrlieLU= ; X-YMail-OSG: TgkCsEMVM1nXkIRtyTWWdE5KRoYUfeWppElkzepi.K1oVKOJWhiaVuwPVBijNt.sbA-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070207214328.01c4c000@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:44:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207092830.0364d940@mindspring.com> References: <011901c7497b$43f9d500$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <0d3301c74aa1$4494c8e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207092830.0364d940@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pathological scepticism is not the same as deliberately lying to cover up meaningful results. P. At 09:43 AM 2/7/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Michel Jullian wrote: > >>Now you mention it, anybody knows if anything positive came out of >>their Toyota/Technova funded CF lab in Nice, France? > >Many positive results came from this effort: > >1. Johnson-Matthey learned how to make Pd that works nearly every time. >They characterize the material in detail. Unfortunately, they are the only >ones who know anything about it and they have not published a single word. >Toyota and Johnson-Matthey were never able to come to an agreement on >sharing information or joint development, according to my sources. > >2. Technova learned to trigger massive excess heat and heat after death in >nearly every cell. > >3. In the end they made boiling cells that produced as much as 74 watts >continuously for 40 to 150 days. See: >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RouletteTresultsofi.pdf > >Unfortunately, after the program founder and main supporter Mr. Toyoda >died, the project was killed by harsh political opposition. That's what >Martin Fleischmann and others told me. Toyoda was one of the sons of the >Toyota Company founder and he had enough influence to ward off the skeptics. > >The "failure" of the NHE program also soured some of the Japanese >leadership on cold fusion. I put failure in quotes because the program >actually did produce excess heat in the last stage, in the experiments >conducted by Melvin Miles. See: > >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMcalorimetrb.pdf > >In the final report the directors of the laboratory lied about Miles >results and claimed that he produced no excess heat. > >Japanese skeptics at high levels are now trying to kill off the >transmutation research at Mitsubishi, the National Synchrotron Laboratory >and Tokyo National University. I expect they will succeed, using the same >arguments used to destroy cold fusion in the U.S. by the DoE reviewers, >i.e., this is a disgrace to science and these results "are not to be >believed." See: > >http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique > >Pathological skepticism is alive and well in Japan. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 20:01:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1840vcE007977; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:00:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1840tXA007963; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:00:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:00:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=le2XSXJHizlciwv9eGK6whr+/Hv/zcAyfZaRjtE5zmgx9txMlnyZn4DSoPmNA0X4; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:00:54 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Global warming skepticism alive and well (was Re: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-...]) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c73c42065e64844f39bfa43320795b20f62ffe20caddccbfe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1840slr007945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: >Pathological scepticism is not the same as deliberately lying to cover up >meaningful results. That is true. But in the case of the NHE and Toyota, I sense that the decision makers do not believe the results, so they lie about them. I think that is also how the people at MIT felt when they covered up their 1989 results. As I recall, Gene Mallove agreed with me. Our guess, based on talking with these people, is that when they saw positive results emerge, they thought something like this: "Damn, that looks like excess heat. It must be some kind of crazy instrument error, or just noise. But I better get rid of it, because if this goes public people will say that we here at MIT / NHE / CalTech also got excess heat, and the rumors will go on for years." The signal at MIT was marginal at best, and some CF researchers such as Ed Storms think it probably was noise. The Miles experiment at the NHE was clearly excess heat, but my sense is that the director there was sick and tired of the whole thing and he wanted to get the program over with. He probably knows that CF is real, but he figured that by then they had blown $20 million and it was not going to pan out into a useful produce, so why drag it out. The people above him, and at Toyota, clearly feel that CF is a bunch of garbage and they had been had by Fleischmann and Pons. They felt this way because they think that Robert Park, the APS and the U.S. DoE is more credible than their own researchers. That's what the researchers told me. The U.S. Navy feels the same way. They ordered their own researchers to stop based on articles in the New York Times. Apparently they think some idiot reporter is better qualified to judge calorimetry than a Distinguished Professor with 50 years of experience. In the DoE 2004 reviewer's comments, you can see people making up ridiculous excuses in order to dismiss the results, put the subject out their minds, and get back to serious work. You can see they never took it seriously long enough to think about the data. Their statements were a thoughtless, reflex rejection of facts, which is indistinguishable from lying. The problem is that the decision makers themselves, in high places in the government, corporations, and the science reporter at Time magazine, for example -- haven't got a clue about these issues. They know zip about basic science & technology. I have spoken with them from time to time, and I used to be shocked at their ignorance, but now I am used to it. They do not know the difference between nuclear and chemical changes. They cannot explain the difference between hardware and software. They essentially have no idea where electricity comes from. When I have tried to explain how it might be that it takes more energy to grow, harvest and process corn than you get from ethanol, top reporters and policy makers have told me I must be wrong because that would be a violation of the conservation of energy. Taubes was supposedly trained as an engineer but his book reveals that he does not know basic facts that I knew perfectly well in 7th grade. He thinks that when you stir a cold fusion cell, the liquid on one side might be still be 50 deg C hotter than the other side. I see this as part of a society-wide failure in education. I do not think people decades ago were any better educated. More to the point, my mother did not think so, and she was here, observant & well educated decades ago, so as the Beatles said, "your mother should know." (And born a long long time ago.) She said in the 1920s most people in New York City had no idea where Europe was, or even where the Statue of Liberty is. But back then, society was less technological and there were fewer science-based decisions to make, so the ignorance did not cause as much damage. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 20:33:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l184Vfca026655; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:31:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l184UxwD026505; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:30:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:30:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c74b39$ec002500$cd037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:30:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74B07.9ECE8F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Global warming skepticism alive.. Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74B07.9ECE8F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed Rothwell wrote.. but that is a political problem, not scientific. Howdy Jed, A keen insight you have. Things happen in the world that most attribute = to conspiracy when they should be blamed on attitude. Given an = opportunity, laws of human nature demand actions be met with inaction of = leadership. Machavelli wrote the book on actions and resultants.=20 There is actually a relationship between how you described F&P reactions = and the border agents articles in the below link. It's total absolute = incompetence of our government at nearly every level, Homeland Defense ( = FEMA) being the prime example. The simple fact is that leaders in = government are incapable of planning anything that would work.. good or = bad. Whatever happens.. simple happens and all the machinery is designed = for is to cover tracks. One of the largest jobs categories is become.. = "spokesperson" Richard http://worldnetdaily.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74B07.9ECE8F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Jed Rothwell wrote..
 
 
but that is a political problem, not scientific.
 
 
Howdy Jed,
 
A keen insight you have. Things = happen in the=20 world that most attribute to conspiracy when they should be blamed on = attitude.=20 Given an opportunity, laws of human nature demand actions be met with = inaction=20 of leadership. Machavelli wrote the book on actions and resultants.=20
There is actually a relationship = between how you=20 described F&P reactions and the border agents articles in the below = link.=20 It's total absolute incompetence of our government at nearly every = level,=20 Homeland Defense ( FEMA) being the prime example. The simple fact = is that=20 leaders in government are incapable of planning anything that would = work.. good=20 or bad. Whatever happens.. simple happens and all the machinery is = designed for=20 is to cover tracks. One of the largest jobs categories is become..=20 "spokesperson"
 
Richard
 
 
http://worldnetdaily.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74B07.9ECE8F60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 23:37:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l187bMGf023101; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:37:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l187bKpn023084; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:37:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0eda01c74b53$f9796600$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45CA8D89.6040305@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:37:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l187bIbL023061 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed Status: O X-Status: Well done Stephen! To make the measurement truly accessible to all, the next step would be to eliminate the digital scope, replacing it with a handful of inexpensive digital components. One could use a fast clocked counter IC started by the near end signal and stopped by the far end one. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: "Vortex" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:40 AM Subject: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed > OK, I admit it, this is pretty boring. But you folks are the only > people I can think of who might possibly respond to this with something > other than a glazed look and the question, "You did what? Uh ... why?" > > The answer, of course, is "just cause I wanted to see for myself". > > Basement measurement of the speed of an EM wave (sorry, it's not really > _light_, just a wave in a wire): > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_light_1.html > > Home office measurement of the speed of sound: > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_sound_1.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 00:16:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l188GefK024378; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 00:16:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l188GZEJ024347; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 00:16:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 00:16:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 03:13:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed In-reply-to: <0eda01c74b53$f9796600$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Could you use this method to test special relativity? i.e. to see if the speed of the em wave in the wire independent of the wire's motion. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Well done Stephen! To make the measurement truly accessible to all, the next > step would be to eliminate the digital scope, replacing it with a handful of > inexpensive digital components. One could use a fast clocked counter IC > started by the near end signal and stopped by the far end one. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: "Vortex" > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:40 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed > > >> OK, I admit it, this is pretty boring. But you folks are the only >> people I can think of who might possibly respond to this with something >> other than a glazed look and the question, "You did what? Uh ... why?" >> >> The answer, of course, is "just cause I wanted to see for myself". >> >> Basement measurement of the speed of an EM wave (sorry, it's not really >> _light_, just a wave in a wire): >> >> http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_light_1.html >> >> Home office measurement of the speed of sound: >> >> http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_sound_1.html >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 04:49:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18CnXfw032077; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 04:49:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18CnVss032062; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 04:49:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 04:49:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tAWcHR4DcTVVJgSluTMX050LI4/12MyQ5ooCUQJrpsYOXXto6TsDh6wwiuVC97tp06StTpj3iIifcAil5qg7RWGlZY6BuJj7e5h1HrfWYsWqTIS9yGtUbaLC/ZIsb3yMVy+2rKRmaTF99iFhdms/tIgKR6u337z0kpFtbmLE+kI= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:49:30 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: EEStor More In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, sent this to the wrong list. Jones had posted this here some time ago. On 2/7/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 05:12:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18DCYL9009544; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 05:12:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18DCUoQ009519; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 05:12:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 05:12:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CB21B7.7050501@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:12:23 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Could you use this method to test special relativity? > i.e. to see if the speed of the em wave in the wire independent of the > wire's motion. I wish! Trouble is, to get a readable result you need to move the wire really, really fast, and I don't see any way to do that. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 07:04:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18F4JwX007388; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:04:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18F4HGT007368; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:04:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:04:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:19:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <45CA8D89.6040305@pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, Well, by Dobbs, you've done an experiment. Congrats. Now for the fun part! I'm looking at the last scope shot, http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/img_0748-a1.png Amplify the receive channel (2) by 10, so you're at 100 mV rather than 1 V/div. Now let's talk about that negative going structure that is appearing between 0 and 15ns on the received channel. Any thoughts about that? K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:40 PM To: Vortex Subject: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed OK, I admit it, this is pretty boring. But you folks are the only people I can think of who might possibly respond to this with something other than a glazed look and the question, "You did what? Uh ... why?" The answer, of course, is "just cause I wanted to see for myself". Basement measurement of the speed of an EM wave (sorry, it's not really _light_, just a wave in a wire): http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_light_1.html Home office measurement of the speed of sound: http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_sound_1.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 08:08:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18G8VYq013246; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:08:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18G8SXs013218; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:08:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:08:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208104652.035f23f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:07:04 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 2006 wind energy stats Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.awea.org/newsroom/pdf/070202__GWEC_Global_Market_Annual_Statistics.pdf QUOTE: "Brussels, 2 February 2007. The booming wind energy markets around the world exceeded expectations in 2006, with the sector experiencing yet another record year. On the day of the publication of the 4th Assessment Report on Climate Change by the IPCC, the Global Wind Energy Council (GWEC) released its annual figures for 2006. These figures, which include wind energy developments in more than 70 countries around the world, show that the year saw the installation of 15,197 megawatts (MW), taking the total installed wind energy capacity to 74,223 MW, up from 59,091 MW in 2005." New installations of 15,197 equal approximately 5 average U.S. nuclear reactors (taking into account actual use, not nameplate capacity) Installed capacity of 74,223 MW equals approximately 25 average U.S. nuclear reactors. Note that the U.S. has about 100 nuclear reactors which supply 20% of electricity. In other words, it would take ~500 nuclear reactors to supply U.S. electricity, or ~20 times the present world wind energy capacity. At the rate wind energy is growing, it will reach this capacity in 95 years. To put it another way, the U.S. uses around 25% of all of electricity in the world, so in 95 years wind might supply about a quarter of all electricity worldwide. With present-day technology that is as much as wind or some other intermittent source can supply without expensive modifications to the distribution network. Of course the demand for electricity will grow, but by the same token the cost of modifying the distribution network may fall, especially if super-capacitors are developed. In short, wind energy is not negligible, but it will have to grow much faster to have a significant impact in time to affect global warming. There is no reason why it should not go more quickly. The presently installed wind capacity cost $23 billion. In an unrealistically expensive linear extrapolation, assuming we expand present wind capacity by a factor of 20 with current technology, it would cost $460 billion. This is roughly comparable to the cost of the war in Iraq, which is presently $364 billion and is expected to reach roughly $2 trillion (for the U.S.) by the time all disabled veterans die. There is plenty of wind capacity -- more than enough to generate not only all of the electricity, but all of the energy we use in the United States and northern Europe. This would leave capacity to spare, which could be used to generate liquid fuel for export. Countries closer to the equator have less potential wind energy. To summarize, wind could solve most of the energy crisis, but it would be expensive. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 09:35:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18HZ82U003111; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:35:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18HZ6Gi003089; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:35:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:35:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CB5F45.6060101@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:35:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: knagel@gis.net Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > Well, by Dobbs, you've done an experiment. Congrats. Yeah, I do one now and then -- generally pretty trivial stuff, tho. > Now for the fun part! > > I'm looking at the last scope shot, > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/img_0748-a1.png > > Amplify the receive channel (2) by 10, so you're at > 100 mV rather than 1 V/div. Now let's talk about > that negative going structure that is appearing > between 0 and 15ns on the received channel. > Any thoughts about that? We've got some noise on both channels, of course, 100 ohm termination resistor or not. But I assume you're talking about the gentle bulge downward which occurs just before the signal on the second channel takes off, which doesn't look like noise -- it looks like it has something to do with the signal itself, almost like the "pre-ringing" of a perfect low-pass filter (which isn't supposed to happen in a case like this, of course!). Without more experiments it's impossible to say for sure what's going on there but my first guess is self-inductance in the loop. One problem with the layout I used (a _loop_) is that the two ends are much closer together than the wire is long. On the web page I guessed the distance between the ends at 4 feet; looking at the photograph (taken before the final arrangement of the wires was done, IIRC), it may actually have been a bit less than that. Once current starts to flow at the head end, it sets up a B field, and it'll take about 1 nS per foot for the information to cross the gap to the receiving end. If the ends were between 3 and 4 feet apart, a signal could start to show up on channel 2 between 3 and 4 nS after the circuit is closed, even though it'll be another 10 to 11 nS before the wave traveling along the wire gets there. Looking at the screen shot, it appears that the downward-going edge on channel 2 starts about 3 to 4 nS after the rise starts on channel 1, so maybe I'm on the right track here (need to think about edge direction, too, of course). With a properly made transmission line this isn't an issue, because the signal is contained in the line itself with negligible leakage. But with this very sloppy "transmission line" the signal was certainly leaking all over the room. Now, what should that leakage signal look like -- which way should it go? This is messy. With our eyes right down on the floor, near the scope, looking at the ends of the wire, they're something like this: + - - + signal ground ground signal In the last shot, the signal is injected in the pair on the right, and channel 2 is hooked up to the pair on the left. So, the field we're most concerned with here is the field of the ground wire on the right (it's closest to the left hand signal wire). We've got an EM wave heading off to the left through the air from that ground wire, and that's what we're picking up in the signal wire over on the left. The initial current pulse in that RH ground wire is coming out of the page, so the B field pulse from it will point down. The Poynting vector, S, must point to the left (that's which way the energy's going) so the E field in the EM pulse we're concerned with must point _into_ the page. That will induce a negative-going pulse in the signal wire, which is what we saw on the screen. (This ignores the pulse in the ground wire at the channel 2 input, but oscilloscopes tend to nail "ground" to earth-ground; I'm not sure a scope can even sense a differential signal between the ground wires on the two channels. But then, what does this say about the _field_ around the ground wire? Hmm...) So this sounds good -- a pat explanation. Only problem is I swapped the wires before each of the last two shots, and didn't record which configuration went with which shot, so the signal and ground wires should, perhaps, be reversed in the above little picture. And when we reverse signal and ground, the argument reverses, the EM pulse from the "signal" wire gets there first (and is stronger than the ground wire pulse), and we should see a positive-going "pre-ring" pulse instead of negative-going. Furthermore, regardless of which shot had which wire arrangement, we don't see positive-going "pre-ring" pulses in _any_ of the screen shots. Half of them had signal and ground reversed. Hmmm...... My observation regarding earth-ground above also suggests that to get really good data on what the waves look like it might be necessary to use active probes that would leave the "ground" wire floating. A couple low-noise op amps might do the job, if you could find them with high enough slew rate. I once knew an engineer who would occasionally use a scope with the cord forced into an extension cord "backwards", with the ground pin hanging out in the air, just so the probe's ground clip would "float". > > K. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:40 PM > To: Vortex > Subject: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed > > > OK, I admit it, this is pretty boring. But you folks are the only > people I can think of who might possibly respond to this with something > other than a glazed look and the question, "You did what? Uh ... why?" > > The answer, of course, is "just cause I wanted to see for myself". > > Basement measurement of the speed of an EM wave (sorry, it's not really > _light_, just a wave in a wire): > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_light_1.html > > Home office measurement of the speed of sound: > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/speed_of_sound_1.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 10:40:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18Idso6015780; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:39:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18IdjSH015713; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:39:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:39:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=V6ZBwKm2egInO7sDShb9zyqAS/oJUEp+UoJ9OK1PrD8wS1/t5G1J1mz9mZHfe4ZuQvuSxikPq8RvCuN0bzq4r4a8kr0Xq/U88cF9StehcLfPTKje7rnfrH6+arW3slAprcAgSLsLZhPkLSVu1ZP4Onci1/Vvh9JgKSKOwxM+H1I= ; X-YMail-OSG: RMYwEEsVM1nNkTOVRhesNdycbJmltp.cCpmM_.AWJwz5GTo.u3oSjIXHOkb8uviZnJEaV37rjQJX9GBaCdObSfKOc4mjg.iRBn_iimVzYRNoXm5dz7IO3gkb6CpD3mjnNLw_25NEG01zgJY- Message-ID: <45CB6BA9.20008@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:27:53 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <16ziO.A.Y1D.x52yFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Sorry, sent this to the wrong list. Jones had posted this here some time ago. http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ Not to worry - as this PR release is a most important development for all of "alternative energy" (esp. wind and solar) and provides a good segue to a reposting of other valuable prior insight on the bettery ;-). The first ref. below was sent to me by Colin Q. on another subject. Also Robin had posted similar references. For future use, it might be helpful to get it all of this "bettery" stuff together in one longer posting. The dielectric post (boron nitride - BN) http://fusor.net/board/download_thread.php?site=fusor&bn=fusor_hvpower&thread=1122956914 A couple of other references (from RvS): http://www.advceramics.com/geac/products/pyrolytic_bn/ This advceramics site (which is also the one mentioned in the Fusor thread) claims that Pyrolitic Boron Nitride has the highest dielectric strength known, which is 200 kV/mm which equates to 2 MV/cm (200 MV/m). Yet this is lower than EEStor are claiming for Barium Titanate. No doubt the good folks at GE (who competitors refer-to as corporate Nazis) are already getting their competitive act together against EEStor. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TX0-49N98HJ-V&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e20c7d9777c4a9257ddf5733c5ee4900 This one claims a "good" dielectric strength for sintered Barium Titanate with deliberate impurities of 65 kV/cm (6.5 MV/m). --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TW0-44JDBYS-3N&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6ca5ce5ed69bd6a08b50436cb92ee598 While not directly related to Barium Titanate, this one claims strengths up to 16.7 MV/m (not cm) for some thin coatings specifically made to be non-porous. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://news.thomasnet.com/news/1305 This appears to be from the Thomas registry, and has a mixture of products/manufacturers with dielectric strengths maxing out at about 400 V/mil = 15.7 MV/m (not cm). --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/latest_research/2004/20041019_3/20041019_3.html This once claims 150-300 kV/mm of greater (300 MV/m) for Alumina films. BTW the cold AD process may be of use to EEStor. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Commentary (and guess-work) EESTor is apparently pursuing a special nano-version of Barium Titanate in an ultracap. That is what they want you to believe. AS mentioned many times, I have reason to believe that there is something special about barium (induced radioactivity), which as of now, is little more than a 'gut-feeling' (based on the wide range of energy anomalies in the literature on Ba devices) instead of a solid scientific belief. It appears that few Vorts share this belief regarding Barium. According to the Fusor thread, the material made by GE and others and is supposed to have the "highest dielectric strength known" which they cite being 200,000 volts / mm. and it would offer a solid alternative to Barium IF there is nothing special in one of the barium istotpes. Pyrolytic Boron Nitride (PBN) is probably a cheaper to produce high-temperature ceramic which exhibits a unique combination of high electrical resistance and thermal conductivity. But as mentioned before, the dielectric itself may be less important than the integrated Batt-Cap "system" or synergistic design. This is a feature that seems to have been missed by almost every other observer of EEStor. The ultracap approach, by itself may not be enough to understand the situation. This is just an educated guess. To recap (pun intended) the prior postings on the better-battery technology: The main point is the "systems" approach (beyond caps only): Ultracapacitors will help - but are probably only "half" the long-term answer to the bettery ... in that there is an under-appreciated synergy between the capacitor and battery - the so-called batt-cap. This is more than semantics - and more than 'just' a combination of two different and distinct electrical parts. You have to merge the two in the design process itself to get the synergy. The idea is that there is a "cap layer" (thin and planar) which carries/stores the negative charge while the electrochemical ions of the battery-side are the modality to carry/store the positive charge. Sounds simple to say, but it is not so simple to pull-off. The logic is that positive ions move slowly and electrons move rapidly, so why not tailor the storage device for the advantage of both? The result is somewhere in between either device, but it does require an electrolyte, unlike the cap (electrolytic caps blur this distinction). The way that you can merge the two dissimilarities is to go with many thin flat layers and use use a solid electrolyte, rather than the so-called "jelly-roll" of electrolytic caps. Ceramics do not "roll-up" very easily, for one thing. Many people who have analyzed the EEStor patent may have missed this key point about the possibility of the batt-cap (mainly because the patent is artfully written to throw out a number of red herrings). Everyone on the cutting edge of batteries these days seems to be throwing out false-leads ... why? for one thing - basically, all of the important patents expired years ago (or are about to expire now). Now we are down to "improvements" disguised as breakthroughs. Usually this merely involves throwing in the prefix "nano". Oops. Better not be so cynical in print, as you never know which side might want to call you as an expert witness in the patent infringement lawsuits which are sure to clog-up the courts as soon as someone starts making money on this . There is a good argument that lithium, as a charge carrier, is far from ideal despite its light weight and low IP - even if it were cheap. And it is very expensive. And very dangerous. Witness the past decades of Li battery explosions. LENR-related, perhaps?? Even the present demand for small batteries for computers and cell-phones has pushed the price of large capacity lithium way too high for practical automobile transportation. Dead-in-water, IMHO. Plus lithium has a molecular weight of 7 and only one redox state while carbon, which is a thousand times cheaper(literally) as a commodity item, and has a molecular weight of 12 - less than double but triple the number of *usable* oxidation or reduction states (all four are not usable). Less voltage, same or less weight, but hundreds of times better "value" (performance per dollar of cost) All in all, for the goal of "charge-retention per unit weight and cost," on the negative side, carbon is preferable to any other material, especially for only the negative charge carrier in a bifurcated system. http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/batteries-0208.html In terms of cost/weight per stored charge - for the positive side, there is a good case of sodium... which is also low density, cheap, ubiquitous supply, less reactive than lithium, and - best of all ! - there is available a well-engineered technology based(courtesy of FMC forty years ago) but the largely ignored solid electrolyte - beta alumina is seldom mentioned anymore (as it is in the public domain): http://scienceservice.si.edu/001023.htm This concept of sodium used with a solid electrolyte is almost always mentioned in the context of NAS - or sodium sulfur, but I have wondered for a long time why this could not broadened and merged into the bat-cap category. One wonders if EEStor has not made a better solid electrolyte using BaTi. In design, the two positive surfaces of the thin (sandwiched planar) cap (the negative terminal) substitute for the sulfur of the NAS, drawing sodium ions physically through the solid electrolyte on charging. This might require some kind of bellows type expansion mechanism between the layers. If the negative charge carrier is a layer of activated carbon (as in the MIT patent) then in effect you have cut the cost and weight of the NAS in half from the start. Before that - it was already in the same weight per charge category as lithium - at a tenth the cost but with one major drawback - which has kept it from use as a small battery (and out of mass production). The problem remains that beta alumina needs to be "warm" (450 K) to conduct sodium ions, and even though this situation has been remedied by a few hundred degrees since Ford gave up on the project, there are practical solutions. (hint: you always have plenty of waste heat with a hybrid). It could very well end up being the case that what EEStor has accomplished (and is trying to carefully hide) is that they have used Barium Titanate with its extraordinary dielectric strength to either improve on a solid electrolyte or to insulate either polarity (perhaps not for Na as the charge carrier, but that is not known). I got an inkling description of a prototype NAS battery setup recently, which is being researched by a major University (to remain nameless) which will blow the socks off of anything currently available for battery power except EEStor, including lithium and hydrides. It is probably in the same range of value as EEStor, but without all the hocus-pocus and deceptive press releases. This WILL happen in the next few years (the advent of the bettery-age of hybrids) but - sadly because of lack of R&D cooperation and the free-market forces involved - there is little cross-fermentation of ideas. Anything on the cutting edge today (in at least a dozen labs) can probably be easily improved-on if they all were to share technology... but then we have the problem of jealously-guarded IP (intellectual property, not ionization potential). Caveat: This in the opinion of an outsider (well-known for having off-beat opinions) who does not own any stock in any battery company (but would like to have some EEStor shares, regardless of the fact that they may have been carefully deceptive by omitting a few important things in their PR releases). Also, it might be wise to short-sell the shares of A123 (and their dinosaur-patrons: GM) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 11:12:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18JC6KW022431; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:12:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18JC3rw022398; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:12:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:12:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=BzSj0R070ACa6g451ji+8wXQqOt53QK6bw5jxmXRkvUXTRvPEnJd5YE1Y6IwYV3I6Fad25Im2Vqelth4sgM3Tvp3bGJli4lPtKV6tmt3lRKvmAIMkMSJ7+ThV9KO7PX6SOWVQwMIt2ExKvwFUHp719MaJjwhfSH9BeD7qlZ1C58= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus In-Reply-To: <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11301_6508428.1170961920018" References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_11301_6508428.1170961920018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst. There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge imbalance, in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down (though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge imbalance obviously remains the same. It is also possible to increase the electric field density without changing the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point. On 2/6/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Nice! It's pretty obvious why voltage increases when you think of it as > variable gap capacitor with a constant charge, q=C*V, if you lower C by > increasing the gap then V necessarily increases. > > > Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer > > spark? > > The answer is yes obviously (the needle is sharper than your knuckle) but > there is no need to glue it to the small pan, you can hold the needle in > your discharging hand (whichever side of the discharge gap you put the > pointed end is fine) > > Also I don't see why it would make a difference whether the large pan is > grounded or not. Simplest is to rest it on the table without further ado. > > You didn't say, but I imagine the bottom larger pan must be upside > down :) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus > > > > > > > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> There's been a little confusion over field strength versus voltage > >> recently on this list. Here's a cool gadget that helps to illustrate > >> the difference. Most likely most readers are already familiar with it, > >> but perhaps it will be new to some. (General description obtained from > >> "Models for Experiments in Physics", by A. D. Bulman, no doubt out of > >> print for 30 years at this point.) > >> > >> (BTW I've been planning to build one of these for the last few decades > >> and haven't _quite_ gotten around to it just yet -- maybe before this > >> winter's over...) > >> > >> Start with two shallow tin trays, baking pan size or a bit smaller, > with > >> rolled edges. > >> > >> Glue an insulated handle to the smaller one. Recommended: An empty > >> detergent bottle, with cap glued to pan, so the handle may be > unscrewed. > >> (Remove label first, he sez; maybe paper isn't so hot in the > >> "insulator" department?) > >> > >> Glue a sheet of "good insulator" to the larger pan. Recommended > >> sources: Bottom of an old plastic dishpan, or a cylindrical > polyethelene > >> bottle, top and bottom cut off, cylinder slitted and "unrolled" so it's > >> flat; heat it to flatten it, he sez. Not too hot or it will stink, sez > I. > >> > >> Now warm everything up (why warm it? dunno) and then charge the > >> insulating sheet by "flicking" it with a piece of flannel, or rubbing > it > >> with a "dry dust cloth" or piece of fur. > >> > >> You're done. (Does the large pan have to be grounded? Book doesn't > >> say; I think the answer is no, it must float, but I'm not sure.) > >> > >> Now, to use it, holding the smaller pan by its handle, place it on the > >> insulator on the larger pan (insulator must be bigger than smaller pan, > >> did I neglect to mention that?). Touch the small pan with a finger to > >> ground it. Now lift it up by the handle, being careful not to touch > it. > >> Finally, bring your knuckle near the small pan, which you are holding > >> by the handle; supposedly, if all goes well, you can pull a spark an > >> inch long from it ... despite the fact that it was at exactly the same > >> potential as your finger mere moments before, and no charge has been > >> added or removed since. > >> > >> You can do it again, as often as you like, _without_ recharging the > >> insulator, until the charge on the insulator finally bleeds off through > >> the air (this is presumably best done in the winter). > >> > >> Anyhow so says the text. As I said, I keep meaning to build one of > >> these, but we use our old tin baking pans for baking things, I don't > >> have any cylindrical polyethylene bottles lying around the house, and I > >> just never got around to scaring up alternatives. > >> > >> Now, the point of this is that the _field_ between the small and large > >> pans is strongest when they're closest together, yet the _voltage_ > >> between the small pan and ground is largest when it's farthest from the > >> large pan. The voltage is boosted mightily by the work done in pulling > >> the pans apart, while the actual field between them is either unchanged > >> or actually decreases in intensity. > > > > Minor addendum/correction: The field is small, _UNTIL_ you bring your > > finger or other grounded pointy thing near the pan; at that point the > > field between the point and the pan will get very large, which is what > > finally breaks down the air to form the spark. > > > > This suggests that you must lift the gadget straight up (don't tilt it), > > to avoid having the charge on the pan "slosh" to one edge due to the > > (approximately vertical) field from the insulator, thus forming a "hot > > spot" in the charge density which would break down the air around it and > > short out before you got them far enough apart to be interesting. > > > > Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer > > spark? Dunno. Sigh... I've gotta finally spend the time to build one > > of these things... > > > > > >> > >> Anybody cares to find out if this gadget actually works, I'd love to > >> hear about the results -- or, as I said, maybe I'll finally get around > >> to building one this year, before the weather gets warm again and the > >> humidity goes up... > >> > > > > ------=_Part_11301_6508428.1170961920018 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst.

There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge imbalance, in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down (though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge imbalance obviously remains the same.

It is also possible to increase the electric field density without changing the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point.



On 2/6/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Nice! It's pretty obvious why voltage increases when you think of it as variable gap capacitor with a constant charge, q=C*V, if you lower C by increasing the gap then V necessarily increases.

> Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer
> spark?

The answer is yes obviously (the needle is sharper than your knuckle) but there is no need to glue it to the small pan, you can hold the needle in your discharging hand (whichever side of the discharge gap you put the pointed end is fine)

Also I don't see why it would make a difference whether the large pan is grounded or not. Simplest is to rest it on the table without further ado.

You didn't say, but I imagine the bottom larger pan must be upside down  :)

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw@pobox.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com >
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus


>
>
> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>> There's been a little confusion over field strength versus voltage
>> recently on this list.  Here's a cool gadget that helps to illustrate
>> the difference.  Most likely most readers are already familiar with it,
>> but perhaps it will be new to some.  (General description obtained from
>> "Models for Experiments in Physics", by A. D. Bulman, no doubt out of
>> print for 30 years at this point.)
>>
>> (BTW I've been planning to build one of these for the last few decades
>> and haven't _quite_ gotten around to it just yet -- maybe before this
>> winter's over...)
>>
>> Start with two shallow tin trays, baking pan size or a bit smaller, with
>> rolled edges.
>>
>> Glue an insulated handle to the smaller one.  Recommended:  An empty
>> detergent bottle, with cap glued to pan, so the handle may be unscrewed.
>>  (Remove label first, he sez; maybe paper isn't so hot in the
>> "insulator" department?)
>>
>> Glue a sheet of "good insulator" to the larger pan.  Recommended
>> sources: Bottom of an old plastic dishpan, or a cylindrical polyethelene
>> bottle, top and bottom cut off, cylinder slitted and "unrolled" so it's
>> flat; heat it to flatten it, he sez.  Not too hot or it will stink, sez I.
>>
>> Now warm everything up (why warm it?  dunno) and then charge the
>> insulating sheet by "flicking" it with a piece of flannel, or rubbing it
>> with a "dry dust cloth" or piece of fur.
>>
>> You're done.  (Does the large pan have to be grounded?  Book doesn't
>> say; I think the answer is no, it must float, but I'm not sure.)
>>
>> Now, to use it, holding the smaller pan by its handle, place it on the
>> insulator on the larger pan (insulator must be bigger than smaller pan,
>> did I neglect to mention that?). Touch the small pan with a finger to
>> ground it.  Now lift it up by the handle, being careful not to touch it.
>>  Finally, bring your knuckle near the small pan, which you are holding
>> by the handle; supposedly, if all goes well, you can pull a spark an
>> inch long from it ... despite the fact that it was at exactly the same
>> potential as your finger mere moments before, and no charge has been
>> added or removed since.
>>
>> You can do it again, as often as you like, _without_ recharging the
>> insulator, until the charge on the insulator finally bleeds off through
>> the air (this is presumably best done in the winter).
>>
>> Anyhow so says the text.  As I said, I keep meaning to build one of
>> these, but we use our old tin baking pans for baking things, I don't
>> have any cylindrical polyethylene bottles lying around the house, and I
>> just never got around to scaring up alternatives.
>>
>> Now, the point of this is that the _field_ between the small and large
>> pans is strongest when they're closest together, yet the _voltage_
>> between the small pan and ground is largest when it's farthest from the
>> large pan.  The voltage is boosted mightily by the work done in pulling
>> the pans apart, while the actual field between them is either unchanged
>> or actually decreases in intensity.
>
> Minor addendum/correction:  The field is small, _UNTIL_ you bring your
> finger or other grounded pointy thing near the pan; at that point the
> field between the point and the pan will get very large, which is what
> finally breaks down the air to form the spark.
>
> This suggests that you must lift the gadget straight up (don't tilt it),
> to avoid having the charge on the pan "slosh" to one edge due to the
> (approximately vertical) field from the insulator, thus forming a "hot
> spot" in the charge density which would break down the air around it and
> short out before you got them far enough apart to be interesting.
>
> Does gluing a needle to the small pan make it possible to pull a longer
> spark?  Dunno.  Sigh... I've gotta finally spend the time to build one
> of these things...
>
>
>>
>> Anybody cares to find out if this gadget actually works, I'd love to
>> hear about the results -- or, as I said, maybe I'll finally get around
>> to building one this year, before the weather gets warm again and the
>> humidity goes up...
>>
>


------=_Part_11301_6508428.1170961920018-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 11:24:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18JOOOp005859; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:24:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18JOKc8005819; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:24:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:24:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:39:44 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <45CB5F45.6060101@pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, >it looks like it has something to >do with the signal itself, almost like the "pre-ringing" of a perfect >low-pass filter Given that your cutoff frequency is 60MHz, the leading edge of the signals you are seeing probably bear little relationship to the actual state of the signal. I say this as the sparkgap type circuit you are using can generate sub nanosecond risetimes. And the measured risetimes just happen to correspond to your scopes bandwidth limit. >Without more experiments it's impossible to say for sure what's going on >here but my first guess is self-inductance in the loop. That's a good/reasonable guess. Are you interested in doing more experiments to prove it out? As the current experiment seems to be showing the opposite of the claim in the message header. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 12:02:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18K2Zu9022022; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:02:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18K2Xc8021983; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:02:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:02:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:21:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed In-reply-to: <45CB21B7.7050501@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Could you use this method to test special relativity? >> i.e. to see if the speed of the em wave in the wire independent of the >> wire's motion. > > I wish! Trouble is, to get a readable result you need to move the wire > really, really fast, and I don't see any way to do that. > Is 100,000 km/h fast enough? This is the speed of Earth as it orbits the Sun. Tests of special relativity make use of the this motion, but the results depend on interference effects. If the wire loop is elliptical instead of circular, special relativity says the speed of the em wave would be the same whether the major axis of the loop is aligned parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the Earth's motion. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 12:03:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18K2bj9022034; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:02:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18K2YmC022006; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:02:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:02:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:58:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed In-reply-to: <45CB21B7.7050501@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Could you use this method to test special relativity? >> i.e. to see if the speed of the em wave in the wire independent of the >> wire's motion. > > I wish! Trouble is, to get a readable result you need to move the wire > really, really fast, and I don't see any way to do that. > Is 100,000 km/h fast enough? This is the speed of Earth as it orbits the Sun. Tests of special relativity make use of the this motion, but the results depend on interference effects. If the wire loop is elliptical instead of circular, special relativity says the speed of the em wave would be the same whether the major axis of the loop is aligned parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the Earth's motion. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 12:05:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18K5IeH017139; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:05:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18K5Gel017106; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:05:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:05:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CB826F.4060809@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:05:03 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Stephen, > >> it looks like it has something to >> do with the signal itself, almost like the "pre-ringing" of a perfect >> low-pass filter > > Given that your cutoff frequency is 60MHz, the leading edge > of the signals you are seeing probably bear little relationship > to the actual state of the signal. I say this as the sparkgap > type circuit you are using can generate sub nanosecond risetimes. > And the measured risetimes just happen to correspond to your > scopes bandwidth limit. Yes, exactly -- the scope goes up about as fast as it can, which is surely a lot slower than the "real" edge. > >> Without more experiments it's impossible to say for sure what's going on >> here but my first guess is self-inductance in the loop. > > That's a good/reasonable guess. Are you interested in doing more experiments to > prove it out? As the current experiment seems to be showing > the opposite of the claim in the message header. Yeah, I'll probably fiddle around some more with this, just because it seems like the "pre-ring" is going the wrong way and I'd like to understand why. I may dig up some 300 ohm antenna cable -- that's a lot easier to deal with than bare wire and should be pretty similar, save that it's (presumably) slower. I should add that before I laid out the bare-wire loop I fooled around a bit with insulated wires (zip cord, that sort of thing) and immediately ran across the fact that you can't easily measure transit time of a signal "through" a typical _coil_ of wire ... it tends to come out as zero, as the induced voltage in the "other end" appears immediately. So, the final rig was set up to keep the ends far enough apart so that the induced signal would be small enough that I could see the "real" (end-to-end) signal with reasonable clarity. In other words, I was expecting to see an induced signal come out "early" before I looked at the results; I was pleasantly surprised at how clean the trace turned out to be. My backup plan if the noise was too bad and the induced signal was too strong would have been to spread the loop out as linearly as possible, with the scope probes at full stretch (would have necessitated clearing some boxes away, that kind of thing). If that wasn't good enough, next step would be to use "extension cords" made of twisted pair, or, still better, coax, carefully measured to equal lengths, to carry the signals from the ends of a long straight bare-wire run into the middle, with the scope in the middle, and the signal fired between the ends of the bare-wire segment; that would eliminate all "short cuts". But none of that turned out to be necessary. If the speed had been 'way low, OTOH, next step was going to be to try to figure some way of suspending the wires from the ends, to get rid of the foam and cement and make sure nothing but air was in the area. (Back of the envelope calculations seemed to indicate running it right next to the floor could have reduced the signal velocity by as much as 20%, but that "calculation" involved several levels of guessing.) That, too, doesn't seem to have been necessary -- though getting a result this close to "exact" first crack out of the box still seems highly implausible; makes me wonder if I actually had two (or more) compensating errors. If I were getting paid for this I'd repeat the experiment a few times, using a fresh setup each time. Better yet, I would consider using a high-frequency oscillator and looking at the phase shift rather than using a single shot. But that would necessitate figuring out the impedance of the line so it could be properly terminated; otherwise the echoes would make hash of it. I _think_ the impedance could be measured by putting a tiny resistor in series with the (single-shot) voltage source and comparing the voltage curves on either end of the resistor, but to be sure I'd have to start with a line of known impedance (50 ohm coax, for instance) and see if it worked. The time it takes to do stuff like this "right" just goes up so fast it's incredible. BTW I didn't know what the "correct" delay was until after it was all over and I was writing up the web page -- that's when I found out the result was almost dead-on... > > K. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 12:20:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18KKhAu028719; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:20:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18KKbDs028676; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:20:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:20:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:45:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In this bloom of optimism about ultracaps as energy storage for cars and a theoretically high recharging rate, do a reality check on the power involved. You fill a gas tank in avout five minutes with enough energy to drive a car at 70 mph for several hours -- and you are going to charge the capacitor with that energy in minutes? The power is in the hundreds of kilowatts -- do the arithmetic yourself. The 'gas' station may have to service a dozen cars at the same time on an expressway in the middle of nowhere -- you need a major transformer substation to supply the peak demand. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:01 -0800: > Hi, > [snip] >>The Better-Battery, or bettery - might be a reality in 2007 - Finally! >>(if you can believe press releases) >> >>http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515 > > At 15 kWh/100lb it has about 8 times better energy density than a > conventional > lead acid battery, and being an ultracap, it should be rechargeable, at a > "gas" > station, in about the time it would normally take to fill the tank with > gas. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 12:42:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18Kg2iu004750; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:42:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18KfxFv004721; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:41:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:41:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:39:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-reply-to: <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let the price of a recharge vary inversely with the time one is prepared to wait for a recharge. Harry Mike Carrell wrote: > In this bloom of optimism about ultracaps as energy storage for cars and a > theoretically high recharging rate, do a reality check on the power > involved. You fill a gas tank in avout five minutes with enough energy to > drive a car at 70 mph for several hours -- and you are going to charge the > capacitor with that energy in minutes? The power is in the hundreds of > kilowatts -- do the arithmetic yourself. The 'gas' station may have to > service a dozen cars at the same time on an expressway in the middle of > nowhere -- you need a major transformer substation to supply the peak > demand. > > Mike Carrell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 5:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > > >> In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:01 -0800: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>> The Better-Battery, or bettery - might be a reality in 2007 - Finally! >>> (if you can believe press releases) >>> >>> http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515 >> >> At 15 kWh/100lb it has about 8 times better energy density than a >> conventional >> lead acid battery, and being an ultracap, it should be rechargeable, at a >> "gas" >> station, in about the time it would normally take to fill the tank with >> gas. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. >> Department. >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 12:46:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18KkIgF017510; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:46:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18KkD1x017479; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:46:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:46:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:45:49 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >In this bloom of optimism about ultracaps as energy storage for cars >and a theoretically high recharging rate, do a reality check on the >power involved. You fill a gas tank in avout five minutes with >enough energy to drive a car at 70 mph for several hours -- and you >are going to charge the capacitor with that energy in minutes? The >power is in the hundreds of kilowatts -- do the arithmetic yourself. >The 'gas' station may have to service a dozen cars at the same time >on an expressway in the middle of nowhere -- you need a major >transformer substation to supply the peak demand. Mike has brought up this important point before, HOWEVER, there are two mitigating circumstances: 1. Electric cars use far less energy per kilometer of travel than gasoline cars do. 2. In a world in which super capacitors have been perfected enough to install one in every automobile, they would also be cheap enough to install in the "gas" station/power station. You would install a bank of them to cover peak-hour demand. Suppose you want to recharge a dozen cars at one time, ten times per hour (six minutes each) during the peak rush hour. That's 120 cars. Say the power company could only deliver enough power to recharge 4 cars simultaneously, or 40 per hour. You would fall behind by 80 cars an hour. So you would have to buy as many super-capacitors as there are in ~80 to ~100 automobiles, to store up electricity before the peak hour. I suppose this would cost approximately $200,000. Note that it costs ~$300,000 to construct a typical gas station, with the pumps and underground tanks. If the super capacitors could not be used for this purpose, because they are too expensive, not reliable, too big, or for some other reason, they would also not be suitable for use in millions of automobiles. Also, by the way, if this gas station was in the middle of nowhere in North Dakota, it would be an excellent place to put a 5 MW wind turbine. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 13:25:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18LPl94029824; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:25:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18LPjmr029810; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:25:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CB9553.2010404@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:25:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> Could you use this method to test special relativity? >>> i.e. to see if the speed of the em wave in the wire independent of the >>> wire's motion. >> I wish! Trouble is, to get a readable result you need to move the wire >> really, really fast, and I don't see any way to do that. >> > > Is 100,000 km/h fast enough? > This is the speed of Earth as it orbits the Sun. > > Tests of special relativity make use of the this motion, but the results > depend on interference effects. Actually those are attempts at finding an aether, rather than tests of SR per se. SR predicts that it makes no difference how fast we're going around the sun, so such experiments should come up null. The problem is that the aether theories predict that, by going and coming along the same path -- as you need to do to get back to the detector -- the effect of motion through the aether will cancel to first order (one way's fast, the other way's slow); the effect looked for is a second order effect (second order in velocity through the aether). Consequently it's really, really small, and is checked for, as you say, using interference effects with light; radio waves would have wavelengths far too long to achieve sufficient sensitivity. > > If the wire loop is elliptical instead of circular, special relativity > says the speed of the em wave would be the same whether the major axis > of the loop is aligned parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the > Earth's motion. Exactly. But what I'd _really_ like to do is observe an effect predicted by SR, rather than not observe an effect not predicted by SR. (For one thing I find aether theories highly unconvincing, right off the bat...) SR makes some cool predictions, but they require horrible speeds to see. For instance, the value of a resistor supposedly depends on how fast it's moving relative to you -- it would be lovely to check that prediction! A fast centrifuge, with slip rings for the electrical connections, leaps to mind as one approach. But as usual the change in value goes as gamma (or maybe gamma^2, I'm not sure about this one off hand), and g = sqrt(1/(1 - v^2/c^2)) or, in the low speed limit, g = 1 + (1/2)(v/c)^2 or, again for "low" speeds, v = c * sqrt(2(g-1)) If we want something easily detectable in a typical basement setup, we'd want to have gamma vary by at least a tenth of a percent. But then we'd need to have v/c on the order of 4%. And that's about 12,000 km/sec, which is about 1000 times Earth-surface escape velocity; no present-day centrifuge is going to come close to that, and slip rings are likely to be awfully noisy at that speed, if they don't melt outright. :-( That v^2/c^2 term is a killer; we need to boost sensitivity by two orders of magnitude to reduce the velocity by 1 order: to get an effect of 0.001 %, or a ratio of 0.00001, we'd still need a velocity of 0.4% of C -- 1,200 km/sec, or about 100 times escape velocity. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 13:33:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18LXI3c020167; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:33:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18LXEgU020125; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:33:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:33:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=XpRSapXFEgapTdi2y4ACD86SAkpRbRXfqiHBa7xQPQn4FYPkcDxECYjG9bkj3CMKcpi2VEM64HMmMCCHAdwIM3CyCrG2GZszOrAn4+bbkVcdCFu831jzLg27ncx+kOxthvqS3NtiklV6lc7Go16nlY/DcTxn/yl44FUWXO1N1+w= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:33:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Very well, then the least I can do is supply a heading. :-) On 2/8/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Sorry, sent this to the wrong list. Jones had posted this here some > time ago. > > http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ > > Not to worry - as this PR release is a most important development for > all of "alternative energy" (esp. wind and solar) and provides a good > segue to a reposting of other valuable prior insight on the bettery ;-). > > The first ref. below was sent to me by Colin Q. on another subject. Also > Robin had posted similar references. For future use, it might be helpful > to get it all of this "bettery" stuff together in one longer posting. > > The dielectric post (boron nitride - BN) > http://fusor.net/board/download_thread.php?site=fusor&bn=fusor_hvpower&thread=1122956914 > > A couple of other references (from RvS): > http://www.advceramics.com/geac/products/pyrolytic_bn/ > > This advceramics site (which is also the one mentioned in the Fusor > thread) claims that Pyrolitic Boron Nitride has the highest dielectric > strength known, which is 200 kV/mm which equates to 2 MV/cm (200 MV/m). > Yet this is lower than EEStor are claiming for Barium Titanate. > > No doubt the good folks at GE (who competitors refer-to as corporate > Nazis) are already getting their competitive act together against EEStor. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TX0-49N98HJ-V&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e20c7d9777c4a9257ddf5733c5ee4900 > > This one claims a "good" dielectric strength for sintered Barium > Titanate with deliberate impurities of 65 kV/cm (6.5 MV/m). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TW0-44JDBYS-3N&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6ca5ce5ed69bd6a08b50436cb92ee598 > > While not directly related to Barium Titanate, this one claims strengths > up to 16.7 MV/m (not cm) for some thin coatings specifically made to be > non-porous. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://news.thomasnet.com/news/1305 This appears to be from the > Thomas registry, and has a mixture of products/manufacturers with > dielectric strengths maxing out at about 400 V/mil = 15.7 MV/m (not cm). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/latest_research/2004/20041019_3/20041019_3.html > > This once claims 150-300 kV/mm of greater (300 MV/m) for Alumina films. > BTW the cold AD process may be of use to EEStor. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Commentary (and guess-work) > > EESTor is apparently pursuing a special nano-version of Barium Titanate > in an ultracap. That is what they want you to believe. AS mentioned many > times, I have reason to believe that there is something special about > barium (induced radioactivity), which as of now, is little more than a > 'gut-feeling' (based on the wide range of energy anomalies in the > literature on Ba devices) instead of a solid scientific belief. It > appears that few Vorts share this belief regarding Barium. > > According to the Fusor thread, the material made by GE and others and is > supposed to have the "highest dielectric strength known" which they cite > being 200,000 volts / mm. and it would offer a solid alternative to > Barium IF there is nothing special in one of the barium istotpes. > > Pyrolytic Boron Nitride (PBN) is probably a cheaper to produce > high-temperature ceramic which exhibits a unique combination of high > electrical resistance and thermal conductivity. > > But as mentioned before, the dielectric itself may be less important > than the integrated Batt-Cap "system" or synergistic design. This is a > feature that seems to have been missed by almost every other observer of > EEStor. The ultracap approach, by itself may not be enough to understand > the situation. This is just an educated guess. > > To recap (pun intended) the prior postings on the better-battery > technology: The main point is the "systems" approach (beyond caps only): > Ultracapacitors will help - but are probably only "half" the long-term > answer to the bettery ... in that there is an under-appreciated synergy > between the capacitor and battery - the so-called batt-cap. This is more > than semantics - and more than 'just' a combination of two different and > distinct electrical parts. You have to merge the two in the design > process itself to get the synergy. > > The idea is that there is a "cap layer" (thin and planar) which > carries/stores the negative charge while the electrochemical ions of the > battery-side are the modality to carry/store the positive charge. Sounds > simple to say, but it is not so simple to pull-off. The logic is that > positive ions move slowly and electrons move rapidly, so why not tailor > the storage device for the advantage of both? > > The result is somewhere in between either device, but it does require an > electrolyte, unlike the cap (electrolytic caps blur this distinction). > The way that you can merge the two dissimilarities is to go with many > thin flat layers and use use a solid electrolyte, rather than the > so-called "jelly-roll" of electrolytic caps. Ceramics do not "roll-up" > very easily, for one thing. > > Many people who have analyzed the EEStor patent may have missed this key > point about the possibility of the batt-cap (mainly because the patent > is artfully written to throw out a number of red herrings). > > Everyone on the cutting edge of batteries these days seems to be > throwing out false-leads ... why? for one thing - basically, all of the > important patents expired years ago (or are about to expire now). > > Now we are down to "improvements" disguised as breakthroughs. Usually > this merely involves throwing in the prefix "nano". Oops. Better not be > so cynical in print, as you never know which side might want to call you > as an expert witness in the patent infringement lawsuits which are sure > to clog-up the courts as soon as someone starts making money on this . > > There is a good argument that lithium, as a charge carrier, is far > from ideal despite its light weight and low IP - even if it were cheap. > And it is very expensive. And very dangerous. Witness the past decades > of Li battery explosions. LENR-related, perhaps?? Even the present > demand for small batteries for computers and cell-phones has pushed the > price of large capacity lithium way too high for practical automobile > transportation. Dead-in-water, IMHO. > > Plus lithium has a molecular weight of 7 and only one redox state while > carbon, which is a thousand times cheaper(literally) as a commodity > item, and has a molecular weight of 12 - less than double but triple the > number of *usable* oxidation or reduction states (all four are not > usable). Less voltage, same or less weight, but hundreds of times better > "value" (performance per dollar of cost) > > All in all, for the goal of "charge-retention per unit weight and cost," > on the negative side, carbon is preferable to any other material, > especially for only the negative charge carrier in a bifurcated system. > > http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/batteries-0208.html > > In terms of cost/weight per stored charge - for the positive side, there > is a good case of sodium... which is also low density, cheap, ubiquitous > supply, less reactive than lithium, and - best of all ! - there is > available a well-engineered technology based(courtesy of FMC forty years > ago) but the largely ignored solid electrolyte - beta alumina is seldom > mentioned anymore (as it is in the public domain): > > http://scienceservice.si.edu/001023.htm > > This concept of sodium used with a solid electrolyte is almost always > mentioned in the context of NAS - or sodium sulfur, but I have wondered > for a long time why this could not broadened and merged into the bat-cap > category. One wonders if EEStor has not made a better solid electrolyte > using BaTi. > > In design, the two positive surfaces of the thin (sandwiched planar) cap > (the negative terminal) substitute for the sulfur of the NAS, drawing > sodium ions physically through the solid electrolyte on charging. This > might require some kind of bellows type expansion mechanism between the > layers. If the negative charge carrier is a layer of activated carbon > (as in the MIT patent) then in effect you have cut the cost and weight > of the NAS in half from the start. Before that - it was already in the > same weight per charge category as lithium - at a tenth the cost but > with one major drawback - which has kept it from use as a small battery > (and out of mass production). > > The problem remains that beta alumina needs to be "warm" (450 K) to > conduct sodium ions, and even though this situation has been remedied by > a few hundred degrees since Ford gave up on the project, there are > practical solutions. (hint: you always have plenty of waste heat with a > hybrid). > > It could very well end up being the case that what EEStor has > accomplished (and is trying to carefully hide) is that they have used > Barium Titanate with its extraordinary dielectric strength to either > improve on a solid electrolyte or to insulate either polarity (perhaps > not for Na as the charge carrier, but that is not known). > > I got an inkling description of a prototype NAS battery setup recently, > which is being researched by a major University (to remain nameless) > which will blow the socks off of anything currently available for > battery power except EEStor, including lithium and hydrides. It is > probably in the same range of value as EEStor, but without all the > hocus-pocus and deceptive press releases. > > This WILL happen in the next few years (the advent of the bettery-age of > hybrids) but - sadly because of lack of R&D cooperation and the > free-market forces involved - there is little cross-fermentation of ideas. > > Anything on the cutting edge today (in at least a dozen labs) can > probably be easily improved-on if they all were to share technology... > but then we have the problem of jealously-guarded IP (intellectual > property, not ionization potential). > > Caveat: This in the opinion of an outsider (well-known for having > off-beat opinions) who does not own any stock in any battery company > (but would like to have some EEStor shares, regardless of the fact that > they may have been carefully deceptive by omitting a few important > things in their PR releases). Also, it might be wise to short-sell the > shares of A123 (and their dinosaur-patrons: GM) > > Jones > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 13:57:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18LvcGL017251; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:57:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18Lvbhi017238; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:57:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:57:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208161258.0368caf0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:53:53 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9k2x8D.A.SNE.Rz5yFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell & I wrote: >>You fill a gas tank in avout five minutes with enough energy to >>drive a car at 70 mph for several hours -- and you are going to >>charge the capacitor with that energy in minutes? > >Mike has brought up this important point before, HOWEVER, there are >two mitigating circumstances: > >1. Electric cars use far less energy per kilometer of travel than >gasoline cars do. This is easy to estimate, actually. Electric cars use 0.2 to 0.3 kWh/km. Assume the range is 500 km (310 miles) -- which I suppose is about average for U.S. gasoline cars, but I wouldn't know. Anyway, suppose it is . . . and 120 fully discharged cars fill up per hour. That's 18,000 kWh per hour, or 18 MW. Looking up Gas Stations & Truck Stops for sale here: http://www.mergernetwork.com/industries/Gas-Stations-and-Truck-Stops/00002.htm . . . I find that a lucrative station pumps 160,000 gallons per month with 12 stations (see lot # BFS-110285). The pump rate is limited to 10 gallons per minute by law, sez the EPA. So that's 13,333 gallons per pump, or 1,333 minutes of operation per month. There are 43,800 minutes per month, so the duty cycle -- I guess it would be called -- is 3%. The pumps are idle 97% of the time. If the place is full up for 10 minutes a day, and then each pump is used a couple times an hour during daylight hour, that would be about 3%. 3% of a day is 43 minutes, so if this were the electric charging station it would use 12,950 kWh per day. With a bank of super-capacitors that can spread that demand evenly throughout 12 hours of daylight, it comes to a steady 1.08 MW of power. Or with a whole bunch of supercapacitors to spread consumption through the entire 24-hour day it is a steady 500 kW. According to Arthur D. Little this would place it in range of: "Hospitals (200-300 beds) Large Hotels (750 rooms) Office (200,000 sq. ft.) School (125,000 sq. ft.) Large Retail" "200 kW - 1,000 kW baseload power requirements" See p. 8 here: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/475277-moRBKG/webviewable/475277.pdf That's big, but not unthinkable. There are plenty of "large hotels" and 300-bed hospitals located near U.S. highways, with large power supplies. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 14:26:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18MPo0a001028; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:25:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18MPnQM000996; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:25:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:25:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=uBnQNAl8SgWQ76WpuvvJPkcdp1yCYd+qj/LMmZiB+IR6IuTHEZ6KjAlUfmaI0NksbbWeJp7PVvhPmF2WS8/eFOhMBZx9iYAQ3JaOa3s7bwdI/zmqdN6k1JQL0SKZ6X1YAUBJmnaiEsAFLYmhMJvLeYR6Ape4R2Ra1iuiQHpCt+Q= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:25:47 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Try two. On 2/8/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Sorry, sent this to the wrong list. Jones had posted this here some > time ago. > > http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ > > Not to worry - as this PR release is a most important development for > all of "alternative energy" (esp. wind and solar) and provides a good > segue to a reposting of other valuable prior insight on the bettery ;-). > > The first ref. below was sent to me by Colin Q. on another subject. Also > Robin had posted similar references. For future use, it might be helpful > to get it all of this "bettery" stuff together in one longer posting. > > The dielectric post (boron nitride - BN) > http://fusor.net/board/download_thread.php?site=fusor&bn=fusor_hvpower&thread=1122956914 > > A couple of other references (from RvS): > http://www.advceramics.com/geac/products/pyrolytic_bn/ > > This advceramics site (which is also the one mentioned in the Fusor > thread) claims that Pyrolitic Boron Nitride has the highest dielectric > strength known, which is 200 kV/mm which equates to 2 MV/cm (200 MV/m). > Yet this is lower than EEStor are claiming for Barium Titanate. > > No doubt the good folks at GE (who competitors refer-to as corporate > Nazis) are already getting their competitive act together against EEStor. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TX0-49N98HJ-V&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e20c7d9777c4a9257ddf5733c5ee4900 > > This one claims a "good" dielectric strength for sintered Barium > Titanate with deliberate impurities of 65 kV/cm (6.5 MV/m). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TW0-44JDBYS-3N&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6ca5ce5ed69bd6a08b50436cb92ee598 > > While not directly related to Barium Titanate, this one claims strengths > up to 16.7 MV/m (not cm) for some thin coatings specifically made to be > non-porous. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://news.thomasnet.com/news/1305 This appears to be from the > Thomas registry, and has a mixture of products/manufacturers with > dielectric strengths maxing out at about 400 V/mil = 15.7 MV/m (not cm). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/latest_research/2004/20041019_3/20041019_3.html > > This once claims 150-300 kV/mm of greater (300 MV/m) for Alumina films. > BTW the cold AD process may be of use to EEStor. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Commentary (and guess-work) > > EESTor is apparently pursuing a special nano-version of Barium Titanate > in an ultracap. That is what they want you to believe. AS mentioned many > times, I have reason to believe that there is something special about > barium (induced radioactivity), which as of now, is little more than a > 'gut-feeling' (based on the wide range of energy anomalies in the > literature on Ba devices) instead of a solid scientific belief. It > appears that few Vorts share this belief regarding Barium. > > According to the Fusor thread, the material made by GE and others and is > supposed to have the "highest dielectric strength known" which they cite > being 200,000 volts / mm. and it would offer a solid alternative to > Barium IF there is nothing special in one of the barium istotpes. > > Pyrolytic Boron Nitride (PBN) is probably a cheaper to produce > high-temperature ceramic which exhibits a unique combination of high > electrical resistance and thermal conductivity. > > But as mentioned before, the dielectric itself may be less important > than the integrated Batt-Cap "system" or synergistic design. This is a > feature that seems to have been missed by almost every other observer of > EEStor. The ultracap approach, by itself may not be enough to understand > the situation. This is just an educated guess. > > To recap (pun intended) the prior postings on the better-battery > technology: The main point is the "systems" approach (beyond caps only): > Ultracapacitors will help - but are probably only "half" the long-term > answer to the bettery ... in that there is an under-appreciated synergy > between the capacitor and battery - the so-called batt-cap. This is more > than semantics - and more than 'just' a combination of two different and > distinct electrical parts. You have to merge the two in the design > process itself to get the synergy. > > The idea is that there is a "cap layer" (thin and planar) which > carries/stores the negative charge while the electrochemical ions of the > battery-side are the modality to carry/store the positive charge. Sounds > simple to say, but it is not so simple to pull-off. The logic is that > positive ions move slowly and electrons move rapidly, so why not tailor > the storage device for the advantage of both? > > The result is somewhere in between either device, but it does require an > electrolyte, unlike the cap (electrolytic caps blur this distinction). > The way that you can merge the two dissimilarities is to go with many > thin flat layers and use use a solid electrolyte, rather than the > so-called "jelly-roll" of electrolytic caps. Ceramics do not "roll-up" > very easily, for one thing. > > Many people who have analyzed the EEStor patent may have missed this key > point about the possibility of the batt-cap (mainly because the patent > is artfully written to throw out a number of red herrings). > > Everyone on the cutting edge of batteries these days seems to be > throwing out false-leads ... why? for one thing - basically, all of the > important patents expired years ago (or are about to expire now). > > Now we are down to "improvements" disguised as breakthroughs. Usually > this merely involves throwing in the prefix "nano". Oops. Better not be > so cynical in print, as you never know which side might want to call you > as an expert witness in the patent infringement lawsuits which are sure > to clog-up the courts as soon as someone starts making money on this . > > There is a good argument that lithium, as a charge carrier, is far > from ideal despite its light weight and low IP - even if it were cheap. > And it is very expensive. And very dangerous. Witness the past decades > of Li battery explosions. LENR-related, perhaps?? Even the present > demand for small batteries for computers and cell-phones has pushed the > price of large capacity lithium way too high for practical automobile > transportation. Dead-in-water, IMHO. > > Plus lithium has a molecular weight of 7 and only one redox state while > carbon, which is a thousand times cheaper(literally) as a commodity > item, and has a molecular weight of 12 - less than double but triple the > number of *usable* oxidation or reduction states (all four are not > usable). Less voltage, same or less weight, but hundreds of times better > "value" (performance per dollar of cost) > > All in all, for the goal of "charge-retention per unit weight and cost," > on the negative side, carbon is preferable to any other material, > especially for only the negative charge carrier in a bifurcated system. > > http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/batteries-0208.html > > In terms of cost/weight per stored charge - for the positive side, there > is a good case of sodium... which is also low density, cheap, ubiquitous > supply, less reactive than lithium, and - best of all ! - there is > available a well-engineered technology based(courtesy of FMC forty years > ago) but the largely ignored solid electrolyte - beta alumina is seldom > mentioned anymore (as it is in the public domain): > > http://scienceservice.si.edu/001023.htm > > This concept of sodium used with a solid electrolyte is almost always > mentioned in the context of NAS - or sodium sulfur, but I have wondered > for a long time why this could not broadened and merged into the bat-cap > category. One wonders if EEStor has not made a better solid electrolyte > using BaTi. > > In design, the two positive surfaces of the thin (sandwiched planar) cap > (the negative terminal) substitute for the sulfur of the NAS, drawing > sodium ions physically through the solid electrolyte on charging. This > might require some kind of bellows type expansion mechanism between the > layers. If the negative charge carrier is a layer of activated carbon > (as in the MIT patent) then in effect you have cut the cost and weight > of the NAS in half from the start. Before that - it was already in the > same weight per charge category as lithium - at a tenth the cost but > with one major drawback - which has kept it from use as a small battery > (and out of mass production). > > The problem remains that beta alumina needs to be "warm" (450 K) to > conduct sodium ions, and even though this situation has been remedied by > a few hundred degrees since Ford gave up on the project, there are > practical solutions. (hint: you always have plenty of waste heat with a > hybrid). > > It could very well end up being the case that what EEStor has > accomplished (and is trying to carefully hide) is that they have used > Barium Titanate with its extraordinary dielectric strength to either > improve on a solid electrolyte or to insulate either polarity (perhaps > not for Na as the charge carrier, but that is not known). > > I got an inkling description of a prototype NAS battery setup recently, > which is being researched by a major University (to remain nameless) > which will blow the socks off of anything currently available for > battery power except EEStor, including lithium and hydrides. It is > probably in the same range of value as EEStor, but without all the > hocus-pocus and deceptive press releases. > > This WILL happen in the next few years (the advent of the bettery-age of > hybrids) but - sadly because of lack of R&D cooperation and the > free-market forces involved - there is little cross-fermentation of ideas. > > Anything on the cutting edge today (in at least a dozen labs) can > probably be easily improved-on if they all were to share technology... > but then we have the problem of jealously-guarded IP (intellectual > property, not ionization potential). > > Caveat: This in the opinion of an outsider (well-known for having > off-beat opinions) who does not own any stock in any battery company > (but would like to have some EEStor shares, regardless of the fact that > they may have been carefully deceptive by omitting a few important > things in their PR releases). Also, it might be wise to short-sell the > shares of A123 (and their dinosaur-patrons: GM) > > Jones > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 14:47:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18MlPMq032620; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:47:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18MlNUk032608; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:47:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:47:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=A2lTJwE0V3MYgmKhB5HvUnwn153Pxba91c/ONHHaImO6GnWLNSNgQtuIqkbnZP0OLwTlZKqojRhGAhO/o95yl6N3SFcqiu13yRET8q2ex2uh8nGF7eTP2tmJoDv8SBZWMCeIp3enfRugFBqGl8Tq5WoyntXXJ4WJ03wqUqY4u94= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:47:23 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A New Candle Status: O X-Status: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 14:48:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18Mm3pf000337; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:48:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18Mm2Hr000317; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:48:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aK7dV+EnODFFS3FGzLuhtGFjbskqoAidqpsVFWLKJ8R/TDdZW9PfYaN4RVEC6k/AyHE9QUq8NG1XadNK53rcfwt8JwESXZ93BRXZk0CBKRoFHLyWHsnw25p68JTXWQGVYKi0dC5L2IaurSa1KltcmV5eRsA9NAXKpVNfxRXthAg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:48:01 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/8/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > Try two. > "Zed, we gotta bug." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 15:29:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18NTpHO029049; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:29:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18NTodw029031; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:29:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:29:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ylAZHn/2zT5H9elkJ1wK49nokrI5hWIiX8lrQmVpamkkR4rocMw1la7br6JOa8CTXVYz7d1Eaj2FtE4MM6x84Xu12mu5Z94DD47dHHeqa7yhN56B6iljxVhOYrvj9u4QwW/pKmVwNE7f+gft462kSHQc33EyZEvbkOwmr6wpRDA= ; X-YMail-OSG: bkc2phIVM1kE2k18MOG.Mx61.uwjHOsYeArQivw6gkvzdxaZe89FBaWxlBnBietVXcx6WGIHC77kU1sxAPuBTWZw9uiYXuTvava6b74vwOWD5cUDjMDf8Ca8LK_jb1Q801vmd7R8eZAGjQ-- Message-ID: <45CBB268.2000200@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:29:44 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_O4p3.A.eFH.tJ7yFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A New Candle Status: O X-Status: That's almost as hard to explain as the disappearing Subject line Terry Blanton wrote: > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 15:38:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18NccTN003534; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:38:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18NcaYl003512; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:38:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:38:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208183638.03609250@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208175256.036a48c8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:38:24 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l18NcY8X003477 Resent-Message-ID: <3ASIcC.A.v2.8R7yFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Example from Brazil, 5 MW peak at one of the world's largest commercial buildings Status: O X-Status: I noted that Arthur D. Little says a large hospital consumes about 1 MW. Here is a mega-mall example of power consumption: ". . . São Paulo is truly an all-in-one complex. The 1.75-million-square-foot complex includes the state-of-the-art WTC Business Tower, the elegant Hotel Gran Meliá São Paulo WTC, and one of Latin America’s most upscale malls, the D&D shopping center." It consumes 5 MW at peak, which is the most I have ever heard of for this kind of facility. That is as much as a small city. This is, "one of the largest commercial buildings in the world." It was built in 1995. See: http://www.cumminspower.com/la/about/news/2006/news-2006-6.jsp - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 15:51:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l18No4iQ015825; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:50:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l18NnKjS015581; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:49:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:49:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ff401c74bdb$c28a19e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:49:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l18NnIew015550 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A New Candle Status: O X-Status: Nice fraud, orchestrated by the big candle wax lobbies no doubt :) It would be more convincing if the bulb's light didn't turn on before the second candle, and if it's luminosity wasn't constant!! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: [Vo]: A New Candle > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 16:45:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l190j8wH013649; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:45:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l190j7n1013641; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:45:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:44:50 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4IN05C.A.7UD.TQ8yFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: More about the skeptics' mindsets Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >But in the case of the NHE and Toyota, I sense that the decision >makers do not believe the results, so they lie about them. . . . >Our guess, based on talking with these people, is that when they saw >positive results emerge, they thought something like this: > >"Damn, that looks like excess heat. It must be some kind of crazy >instrument error, or just noise. What I am trying to say is, I do not think that any opponent of CF thinks the effect might exist. None of them is thinking: "This is real! I'll be out of a job if people find out! They will shut down the hot fusion program!" Even in the oil industry I doubt anyone would go that far, but who knows. As far as I can tell, no opponent imagines that he is quashing what Michel Jullian called "important stuff." They are sure it is unimportant. Opponents are 100% certain that it is nonsense, garbage, fraud, or, at least, a ridiculous waste of time. They figure, "why not lie a little or fudge the data to get rid of what is obviously a big lie and a travesty?" Also, they think it is a good idea to employ insults, ridicule and ad hominem attacks. As David Lindley wrote in Nature, in March 1990: "All cold fusion theories can be demolished one way or another, but it takes some effort... Would a measure of unrestrained mockery, even a little unqualified vituperation have speeded cold fusion's demise?" (You can see that I am not just trying to read their minds, and I am "not making this stuff up" as Dave Barry used to say. The skeptics boldly go on record saying things that in normal circumstances, any scientist would consider appalling!) Skeptics attack CF only to prevent a small amount of funding from being taken away from real science and diverted to schlock science. And to protect the public reputation of science. Not because they fear CF might actually someday succeed and then take away their entire program. Also, they attack it because they are upset that anyone would take it seriously. They put it in the same category I put astrology or creationism. The difference is that although I consider these things to be nonsense, I am not upset by them. I do not care whether other people spend time or money on them. But I would be upset if someone got government funds to do creationist research, or if he taught it in a public school. So I guess I can understand how the skeptics feel about government funding for cold fusion. It is difficult for people who share my beliefs to understand how these people think. You should not imagine they are evil, or they are deliberately trying to prevent progress and quash academic freedom. That is not how they see themselves. They commit evil acts, but it is unintentional. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 17:14:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l191Em9c009365; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:14:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l191ElVx009351; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:14:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:14:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 2006 wind energy stats Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:14:38 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208104652.035f23f0@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed sez: ... > In short, wind energy is not negligible, but it will have to grow > much faster to have a significant impact in time to affect global > warming. There is no reason why it should not go more quickly. The > presently installed wind capacity cost $23 billion. In an > unrealistically expensive linear extrapolation, assuming we expand > present wind capacity by a factor of 20 with current technology, it > would cost $460 billion. This is roughly comparable to the cost of > the war in Iraq, which is presently $364 billion and is expected to > reach roughly $2 trillion (for the U.S.) by the time all disabled > veterans die. Quite an eye opener. We can continue spend hundreds of billions of dollars meddling in the affairs of oil rich countries, most that hate our guts (sometimes with justification) to secure energy resources - all in the name of national self interest or We can spend the same hundreds of billions of dollars focusing on an equally difficult task of developing alternative energy resources - all in the name of national self interest. Why is it so difficult to chose! Makes me wanna cry. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 17:14:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l191EopI030130; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:14:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l191En6O030114; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:14:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:14:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: A New Candle Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:14:42 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <45CBB268.2000200@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fascinating. I realize wax is being converted into CO2 & H2O and other by-products as the two candle flames burn. But what are the energy conversion equations going on here? Part of me wants to believe there might actually be some kind of OU going on, but I assume that's really not the case here. > That's almost as hard to explain as the disappearing Subject line > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ > Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 17:17:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l191GvVR031730; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:16:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l191Gu1G031711; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:16:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:16:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: A New Candle Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:16:47 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0ff401c74bdb$c28a19e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel sez: > Nice fraud, orchestrated by the big candle wax lobbies no doubt > :) It would be more convincing if the bulb's light didn't turn on > before the second candle, and if it's luminosity wasn't constant!! > > Michel Oh dear, hoodwinked again! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrinWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 19:51:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l193ouDV027942; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:50:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l193os9T027927; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:50:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:50:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:48:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Speed of light confirmed In-reply-to: <45CB9553.2010404@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7Upn-C.A.P0G.e--yFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>> Could you use this method to test special relativity? >>>> i.e. to see if the speed of the em wave in the wire independent of the >>>> wire's motion. >>> I wish! Trouble is, to get a readable result you need to move the wire >>> really, really fast, and I don't see any way to do that. >>> >> >> Is 100,000 km/h fast enough? >> This is the speed of Earth as it orbits the Sun. >> >> Tests of special relativity make use of the this motion, but the results >> depend on interference effects. > > Actually those are attempts at finding an aether, rather than tests of > SR per se. SR predicts that it makes no difference how fast we're going > around the sun, so such experiments should come up null. Strictly speaking it is simply an attempt to show that the the SR rules for adding velocities (the Lorentz transforms) do not cover all situations. > The problem is that the aether theories predict that, by going and > coming along the same path -- as you need to do to get back to the > detector -- the effect of motion through the aether will cancel to first > order (one way's fast, the other way's slow); the effect looked for is a > second order effect (second order in velocity through the aether). This is the situation when the emitter-detector and the reflector are moving together at the same speed. However, if the reflector and the emitter-detector are moving towards each other or away from each other at a given relative speed, on the return path the difference in signal speed will be magnified. > Consequently it's really, really small, and is checked for, as you say, > using interference effects with light; radio waves would have > wavelengths far too long to achieve sufficient sensitivity. > >> >> If the wire loop is elliptical instead of circular, special relativity >> says the speed of the em wave would be the same whether the major axis >> of the loop is aligned parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the >> Earth's motion. > > Exactly. But what I'd _really_ like to do is observe an effect > predicted by SR, rather than not observe an effect not predicted by SR. I am puzzled by this remark. I always thought a prediction of SR is that c is a constant (in a vacuum) . > (For one thing I find aether theories highly unconvincing, right off > the bat...) > SR makes some cool predictions, but they require horrible speeds to see. > For instance, the value of a resistor supposedly depends on how fast > it's moving relative to you -- it would be lovely to check that > prediction! A fast centrifuge, with slip rings for the electrical > connections, leaps to mind as one approach. > > But as usual the change in value goes as gamma (or maybe gamma^2, I'm > not sure about this one off hand), and > > g = sqrt(1/(1 - v^2/c^2)) > > or, in the low speed limit, > > g = 1 + (1/2)(v/c)^2 > > or, again for "low" speeds, > > v = c * sqrt(2(g-1)) > > If we want something easily detectable in a typical basement setup, we'd > want to have gamma vary by at least a tenth of a percent. But then we'd > need to have v/c on the order of 4%. And that's about 12,000 km/sec, > which is about 1000 times Earth-surface escape velocity; no present-day > centrifuge is going to come close to that, and slip rings are likely to > be awfully noisy at that speed, if they don't melt outright. :-( > > That v^2/c^2 term is a killer; we need to boost sensitivity by two > orders of magnitude to reduce the velocity by 1 order: to get an effect > of 0.001 %, or a ratio of 0.00001, we'd still need a velocity of 0.4% of > C -- 1,200 km/sec, or about 100 times escape velocity. The dictates of mathematics... :) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 19:52:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l193qLNL028387; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:52:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l193qJk3028370; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:52:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:52:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c74bfd$b13443b0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:45:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed's right in that a successful supercapacitor technology could also build large buffers for peak demands, just like the subsurface gas storage tanks in ordinary gas stations. It is true that electric cars can be more efficient than gasoline cars because you bypass the whole mechanical drive train. However, the efficiency of electric motors is a strong function of the RPM and basic design, which is why it has taken quite some time and in the case of Toyota's design, their own semiconductor plant to get the necessary switching circuitry. I have read that to propel a standard car at 60 MPH over a level highway takes only some 20+ horsepower delivered to the wheels. That's about 14 kW. Do that for three hours and you have 42 kWH. Deliver that in 0.1 hr and you have 420 kW craming into your supercapacitor. Something will melt, if not explode. If you count the internal losses of the supercapacitor and the drive electronics, the numbers get scarier. I don't know much about the supercapacitor technology, so hereby stand for corrections, but I gather it is related to the high dielectric constants of barium titanate capacitors and transducers. These are remarkable and useful electronic devices which are also noted for high internal losses compared to, say, mylar or teflon or quartz as dielectrics. So one should pay attention to the charge/discharge losses in these materials as well as internal stresses generated by the piezoelectric properties of these materials. Mike Carrell ----------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > Mike Carrell wrote: > >>In this bloom of optimism about ultracaps as energy storage for cars and a >>theoretically high recharging rate, do a reality check on the power >>involved. You fill a gas tank in avout five minutes with enough energy to >>drive a car at 70 mph for several hours -- and you are going to charge the >>capacitor with that energy in minutes? The power is in the hundreds of >>kilowatts -- do the arithmetic yourself. The 'gas' station may have to >>service a dozen cars at the same time on an expressway in the middle of >>nowhere -- you need a major transformer substation to supply the peak >>demand. > > Mike has brought up this important point before, HOWEVER, there are two > mitigating circumstances: > > 1. Electric cars use far less energy per kilometer of travel than gasoline > cars do. > > 2. In a world in which super capacitors have been perfected enough to > install one in every automobile, they would also be cheap enough to > install in the "gas" station/power station. You would install a bank of > them to cover peak-hour demand. > > Suppose you want to recharge a dozen cars at one time, ten times per hour > (six minutes each) during the peak rush hour. That's 120 cars. Say the > power company could only deliver enough power to recharge 4 cars > simultaneously, or 40 per hour. You would fall behind by 80 cars an hour. > So you would have to buy as many super-capacitors as there are in ~80 to > ~100 automobiles, to store up electricity before the peak hour. I suppose > this would cost approximately $200,000. Note that it costs ~$300,000 to > construct a typical gas station, with the pumps and underground tanks. > > If the super capacitors could not be used for this purpose, because they > are too expensive, not reliable, too big, or for some other reason, they > would also not be suitable for use in millions of automobiles. > > Also, by the way, if this gas station was in the middle of nowhere in > North Dakota, it would be an excellent place to put a 5 MW wind turbine. > > - Jed > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 19:58:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l193wECb030323; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:58:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l193wCal030303; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:58:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c74bfe$83ef4160$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208161258.0368caf0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:58:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I replied to Jed's earlier post before seeing this one. The number he uses 0.2-0.3 kWH/km is creeping in 'rush hour' traffic, not at expressway speeds -- I assume Atlanta is as bad as the Philadelphia area, where it is 70+ MPH. Pick your own number. The catch is not only at the service station, but the interface with the car itself and the tolerable wait time for a full refill. The next idea is the battery swap, but who will trust that the swapped battery is fully charged and not defective? The cost is not trivial. An accidental short in a fully charged battery will be an even more spectacular event that shorting a lead-acid battery. All technical problems, all solvable, but requiring some very strong motivation to accomodate. Mike Carrell ------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > Mike Carrell & I wrote: > >>>You fill a gas tank in avout five minutes with enough energy to drive a >>>car at 70 mph for several hours -- and you are going to charge the >>>capacitor with that energy in minutes? >> >>Mike has brought up this important point before, HOWEVER, there are two >>mitigating circumstances: >> >>1. Electric cars use far less energy per kilometer of travel than gasoline >>cars do. > > This is easy to estimate, actually. Electric cars use 0.2 to 0.3 kWh/km. > Assume the range is 500 km (310 miles) -- which I suppose is about average > for U.S. gasoline cars, but I wouldn't know. Anyway, suppose it is . . . > and 120 fully discharged cars fill up per hour. That's 18,000 kWh per > hour, or 18 MW. > > Looking up Gas Stations & Truck Stops for sale here: > > http://www.mergernetwork.com/industries/Gas-Stations-and-Truck-Stops/00002.htm > > . . . I find that a lucrative station pumps 160,000 gallons per month with > 12 stations (see lot # BFS-110285). The pump rate is limited to 10 gallons > per minute by law, sez the EPA. So that's 13,333 gallons per pump, or > 1,333 minutes of operation per month. There are 43,800 minutes per month, > so the duty cycle -- I guess it would be called -- > is 3%. The pumps are idle 97% of the time. > > If the place is full up for 10 minutes a day, and then each pump is used a > couple times an hour during daylight hour, that would be about 3%. > > 3% of a day is 43 minutes, so if this were the electric charging station > it would use 12,950 kWh per day. With a bank of super-capacitors that can > spread that demand evenly throughout 12 hours of daylight, it comes to a > steady 1.08 MW of power. Or with a whole bunch of supercapacitors to > spread consumption through the entire 24-hour day it is a steady 500 kW. > According to Arthur D. Little this would place it in range of: > > "Hospitals (200-300 beds) > Large Hotels (750 rooms) > Office (200,000 sq. ft.) > School (125,000 sq. ft.) > Large Retail" > > "200 kW - 1,000 kW baseload power requirements" See p. 8 here: > > http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/475277-moRBKG/webviewable/475277.pdf > > That's big, but not unthinkable. There are plenty of "large hotels" and > 300-bed hospitals located near U.S. highways, with large power supplies. > > - Jed > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 22:39:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l196cxm7012442; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:38:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l196cvOo012423; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:38:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:38:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=HbgRREzzulCeo/NPNd4vY+pHMEkllo8V4jjnvoUQVH9uy5bpA1rwcjvC/ZmsckJsI4VreGH4csVyKPaFYhe7nqeSwla3nURnzwzlA6+zkgpYhdVnnuwAfKWtAIUpZlb8yr7lwaFBFvUE3AT19pdWWx37lVEHifsX8YO8CUVsKno= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:38:54 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: A New Candle In-Reply-To: <0ff401c74bdb$c28a19e0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15164_25661303.1171003134754" References: <0ff401c74bdb$c28a19e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_15164_25661303.1171003134754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, well I would give this a freaking low chance of being real, even if I was ok with the open circuit I'd not be so fine with the fact it's symmetrical yet develops a DC voltage. However if you look when the flame goes out on the lighter that is exactly when the bulb turns on, so while the flame may take a second to become visible to us never the less the flame has been initiated. If it's a fake (99.9% chance it is) the only way to do it is to put holes in the table, or fine wires attacked to the nails, if only he had a hoop to pass the candle through ;) On 2/9/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Nice fraud, orchestrated by the big candle wax lobbies no doubt :) It > would be more convincing if the bulb's light didn't turn on before the > second candle, and if it's luminosity wasn't constant!! > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:47 PM > Subject: [Vo]: A New Candle > > > > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ > > > > ------=_Part_15164_25661303.1171003134754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, well I would give this a freaking low chance of being real, even if I was ok with the open circuit I'd not be so fine with the fact it's symmetrical yet develops a DC voltage.

However if you look when the flame goes out on the lighter that is exactly when the bulb turns on, so while the flame may take a second to become visible to us never the less the flame has been initiated.

If it's a fake (99.9% chance it is) the only way to do it is to put holes in the table, or fine wires attacked to the nails, if only he had a hoop to pass the candle through ;)



On 2/9/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Nice fraud, orchestrated by the big candle wax lobbies no doubt :) It would be more convincing if the bulb's light didn't turn on before the second candle, and if it's luminosity wasn't constant!!

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: [Vo]: A New Candle


> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/
>


------=_Part_15164_25661303.1171003134754-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 22:44:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l196iM93014849; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:44:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l196iKbc014813; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:44:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:44:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2006 wind energy stats Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:44:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208104652.035f23f0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:44:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l196iHYS014788 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to OrionWorks's message of Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:14:38 -0600: Hi, [snip] >We can continue spend hundreds of billions of dollars meddling in the >affairs of oil rich countries, most that hate our guts (sometimes with >justification) to secure energy resources - all in the name of national self >interest > >or > >We can spend the same hundreds of billions of dollars focusing on an equally >difficult task of developing alternative energy resources - all in the name >of national self interest. > >Why is it so difficult to chose! Makes me wanna cry. ...because "W" has links to both oil and arms, see e.g. http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/TiesThatBind.html [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 22:46:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l196jq0n015936; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:45:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l196jm9V015891; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:45:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:45:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CC1872.7080904@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:45:06 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA39EE.4010008@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207163740.036ffcc0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207163740.036ffcc0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Parasol Fix Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > and Jed Rothwell replied; > I doubt very much that the Sun is putting out more energy, but if it > is we could easily fix the problem by spreading large Mylar parasols > in space. This calls for a space elevator, but the prospects for an > elevator are better than ever. It is now estimated to cost around $6 > billion, it will take about 5 years, and it can probably be done with > materials that should be available in a few years. > First of all, I heard that Space.com has reported on increased solar irradiance. Robin has added a new word to my vocabulary, this week Dennis Prager used it, too. My spell checker flagged it, do I have the spelling right? As for your Parasol Fix to Climate Change, You should have posted it on a science fiction list Jed. They just spent $100 billion and 20 years to build the ISS. Based on that, just how many trillion $, over how many decades, do you think what your parasol project will cost? There is no one who would be happier than me to see a space elevator work. If someone can develop a technique for generating continuous carbon nanotubes, then perhaps we could develop a material strong enough to spin the ribbon. Perhaps someone can comment on the strength difference between a continuous nanotube and short nanotubes held together by Van Der Waal's forces, but I'm sure it's significant. Recently someone posted a Space Elevator idea in which the ribbon was an evacuated tube with an iron strip inside it, now there's a idea for Analog. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 22:46:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l196k4Ce021794; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:46:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l196jqSs021752; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:45:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:45:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SNIP/7xmKfFH+PVY8cheyRaO+AL+1nwG4QDPYhkoS1A+REaSVLkiFGV5W70PQy55L9WTfF2UTwDGZjdgoQAWQ8aSKBbXUI7GcXFi9bfterGjDmEUGYMAJXBYqxOghbQKGrDpq8pWqOANHm6Dn0rSYxqIa1mjcLmQrlV3Gv26uZ4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:45:51 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: A New Candle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15200_22184919.1171003551292" References: <0ff401c74bdb$c28a19e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_15200_22184919.1171003551292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fPXewq8S5w Another candle fake. On 2/9/07, John Berry wrote: > > Ok, well I would give this a freaking low chance of being real, even if I > was ok with the open circuit I'd not be so fine with the fact it's > symmetrical yet develops a DC voltage. > > However if you look when the flame goes out on the lighter that is exactly > when the bulb turns on, so while the flame may take a second to become > visible to us never the less the flame has been initiated. > > If it's a fake (99.9% chance it is) the only way to do it is to put holes > in the table, or fine wires attacked to the nails, if only he had a hoop to > pass the candle through ;) > > > > On 2/9/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > > > Nice fraud, orchestrated by the big candle wax lobbies no doubt :) It > > would be more convincing if the bulb's light didn't turn on before the > > second candle, and if it's luminosity wasn't constant!! > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Terry Blanton" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:47 PM > > Subject: [Vo]: A New Candle > > > > > > > http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_15200_22184919.1171003551292 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fPXewq8S5w

Another candle fake.

On 2/9/07, John Berry < aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, well I would give this a freaking low chance of being real, even if I was ok with the open circuit I'd not be so fine with the fact it's symmetrical yet develops a DC voltage.

However if you look when the flame goes out on the lighter that is exactly when the bulb turns on, so while the flame may take a second to become visible to us never the less the flame has been initiated.

If it's a fake (99.9% chance it is) the only way to do it is to put holes in the table, or fine wires attacked to the nails, if only he had a hoop to pass the candle through ;)




On 2/9/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Nice fraud, orchestrated by the big candle wax lobbies no doubt :) It would be more convincing if the bulb's light didn't turn on before the second candle, and if it's luminosity wasn't constant!!

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: < vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: [Vo]: A New Candle


> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/
>



------=_Part_15200_22184919.1171003551292-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 23:00:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19702b9001134; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 23:00:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l196kNwg022070; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:46:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:46:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:46:13 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> In this bloom of optimism about ultracaps as energy storage for cars >> and a theoretically high recharging rate, do a reality > > And Jed said; > Suppose you want to recharge a dozen cars at one time, ten times per > hour (six minutes each) during the peak rush hour. That's 120 > I have a simple answer, you plug the car in when you shut it off. I'm talking about a garden variety, 20 Amp plug in. The car spends most of it's life turned off. There could be plug ins in every parking lot with a quarter activated switch like a clothes dryer. The only place where you would need a fast recharger would be on free ways. But the car has to be equiped to take a fast charge, and that adds weight. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 01:00:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l198xqBx011465; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:59:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l198xn4x011439; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:59:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:59:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CC37E7.2040402@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:59:19 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Now this is a website! Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; Those of you who have been on the list for a while know that I have a fascination with the apocalypse, and a gallows sense of humor. The author of this website was interviewed this morning on C to C AM, no matter what you think about his theories, you will, IMHO, appreciate the art that went into the introductory page. http://www.apocalypse2012.com . Momma mia, that's a spicy webpage! I'm reminded of a Tesla Society conference around 1992 where someone mentioned the wall in 2012, and remote viewing. That was before I heard about Hal Puthoff's role in the development of remote viewing, 2012 seemed a long way off at the time. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 01:08:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1998NH0012876; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:08:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1998LfS012859; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:08:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:08:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cbTb149Na0v/py4ifzYp4KsvyHf0STg6Kpq5TURN2lyRxt2Slvnt88CqM4nKs9UNoXjyS0hMFYQ+ytzuh9/VE7c2KdZK5CzGsoVuXBBoshy1JMN1u//ISIyCtEc0tcVnZd/zjm9mC475z216Khwgm1S/xuMNXGDlVT9hsJ4+pZQ= Message-ID: <538fa8f10702090108w432581el59bbe18ad8c3b82@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:08:19 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now this is a website! In-Reply-To: <45CC37E7.2040402@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_42907_31962395.1171012099546" References: <45CC37E7.2040402@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4Qu4-B.A.3ID.EoDzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72641 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_42907_31962395.1171012099546 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline surely http://www.helicola.com is better? On 09/02/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > Vortexians; > > Those of you who have been on the list for a while know that I have a > fascination with the apocalypse, and a gallows sense of humor. The > author of this website was interviewed this morning on C to C AM, no > matter what you think about his theories, you will, IMHO, appreciate the > art that went into the introductory page. http://www.apocalypse2012.com > . Momma mia, that's a spicy webpage! > > I'm reminded of a Tesla Society conference around 1992 where someone > mentioned the wall in 2012, and remote viewing. That was before I heard > about Hal Puthoff's role in the development of remote viewing, 2012 > seemed a long way off at the time. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_42907_31962395.1171012099546 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline surely http://www.helicola.com is better?


On 09/02/07, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Vortexians;

Those of you who have been on the list for a while know that I have a
fascination with the apocalypse, and a gallows sense of humor. The
author of this website was interviewed this morning on C to C AM, no
matter what you think about his theories, you will, IMHO, appreciate the
art that went into the introductory page. http://www.apocalypse2012.com
. Momma mia, that's a spicy webpage!

I'm reminded of a Tesla Society conference around 1992 where someone
mentioned the wall in 2012, and remote viewing. That was before I heard
about Hal Puthoff's role in the development of remote viewing, 2012
seemed a long way off at the time.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_42907_31962395.1171012099546-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 01:21:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l199LCeD018121; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:21:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l199LBiw018104; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:21:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:21:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=o3Bjwne1rrGeiy1MCFrTIvjtB+Y9LkZlAl82W/2WI6W437OETIup6KS8+NeAcr0hLpWLJRQ8ToRJIMETnp+2ONxd3ZcvFXtnpqdvS/UkoO5fK3KSrD4/yUCt2zDu2+fsJikJb+0bxELeXYFSgjhZj201dRr+8QieF6/9q3/1aS8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:21:09 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now this is a website! In-Reply-To: <45CC37E7.2040402@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15804_20426587.1171012869371" References: <45CC37E7.2040402@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_15804_20426587.1171012869371 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSdtIGFsbCBmb3IgQXBvY2FseXBzZToKCipBcG9jYWx5cHNlKiAoR3JlZWsgPGh0dHA6Ly9lbi53 aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvR3JlZWtfbGFuZ3VhZ2U+OgrhvIjPgM6/zrrOrM67z4XPiM65z4Ig LXRyYW5zbGl0Lgo8aHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UcmFuc2xpdGVyYXRpb24+ QVBPS0FMWVBTSVMsIGxpdGVyYWxseToKdGhlIGxpZnRpbmcgb2YgdGhlIHZlaWwpLCBpcyBhIHRl cm0gYXBwbGllZCB0byB0aGUKZGlzY2xvc3VyZSB0byBjZXJ0YWluIHByaXZpbGVnZWQgcGVyc29u cyBvZiBzb21ldGhpbmcgaGlkZGVuIGZyb20gdGhlIG1hc3MKb2YgaHVtYW5raW5kLgoKUGx1cyAy MDEyIGlzbid0IHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIG1heWFuIGNhbGVuZGEsIGp1c3QgdGhlIGVuZCBvZiBv bmUgcGFydC4KCk9uIDIvOS8wNywgdGhvbWFzIG1hbGxveSA8dGVtYWxsb3lAdXNmYW1pbHkubmV0 PiB3cm90ZToKPgo+IFZvcnRleGlhbnM7Cj4KPiBUaG9zZSBvZiB5b3Ugd2hvIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBv biB0aGUgbGlzdCBmb3IgYSB3aGlsZSBrbm93IHRoYXQgSSBoYXZlIGEKPiBmYXNjaW5hdGlvbiB3 aXRoIHRoZSBhcG9jYWx5cHNlLCBhbmQgYSBnYWxsb3dzIHNlbnNlIG9mIGh1bW9yLiBUaGUKPiBh dXRob3Igb2YgdGhpcyB3ZWJzaXRlIHdhcyBpbnRlcnZpZXdlZCB0aGlzIG1vcm5pbmcgb24gQyB0 byBDIEFNLCBubwo+IG1hdHRlciB3aGF0IHlvdSB0aGluayBhYm91dCBoaXMgdGhlb3JpZXMsIHlv dSB3aWxsLCBJTUhPLCBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZQo+IGFydCB0aGF0IHdlbnQgaW50byB0aGUgaW50 cm9kdWN0b3J5IHBhZ2UuIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYXBvY2FseXBzZTIwMTIuY29tCj4gLiBNb21tYSBt aWEsIHRoYXQncyBhIHNwaWN5IHdlYnBhZ2UhCj4KPiBJJ20gcmVtaW5kZWQgb2YgYSBUZXNsYSBT b2NpZXR5IGNvbmZlcmVuY2UgYXJvdW5kIDE5OTIgd2hlcmUgc29tZW9uZQo+IG1lbnRpb25lZCB0 aGUgd2FsbCBpbiAyMDEyLCBhbmQgcmVtb3RlIHZpZXdpbmcuIFRoYXQgd2FzIGJlZm9yZSBJIGhl YXJkCj4gYWJvdXQgSGFsIFB1dGhvZmYncyByb2xlIGluIHRoZSBkZXZlbG9wbWVudCBvZiByZW1v dGUgdmlld2luZywgMjAxMgo+IHNlZW1lZCBhIGxvbmcgd2F5IG9mZiBhdCB0aGUgdGltZS4KPgo+ Cj4gLS0tIGh0dHA6Ly9VU0ZhbWlseS5OZXQvZGlhbHVwLmh0bWwgLSAkOC4yNS9tbyEgLS0KPiBo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnVzZmFtaWx5Lm5ldC9kc2wuaHRtbCAtICQxOS45OS9tbyEgLS0tCj4KPgo= ------=_Part_15804_20426587.1171012869371 Content-Type: text/html; 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Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:29:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l199T1l0021797; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:29:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:29:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:29:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l199SxiQ021771 Resent-Message-ID: <33-_wD.A.dUF.d7DzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Status: RO X-Status: Empathy: the ability to imagine oneself in another's place and understand the other's feelings, desires, ideas, and actions... (Encyclopaedia Britannica) Congratulations Jed, few people if any are capable of such a high level of empathy, sincerely! Now try another impersonation. Imagine yourself in the place of a hypothetical CF experimenter who realizes years later that his past overunity claims were erroneous for some unobvious reason, but still believes (rightly so maybe) that there must be a way to make CF work. Would you endanger the whole field -and therefore the world- by admitting your error, or would you keep quiet? Let's push it further. Imagine you lack, unknowingly, the particular technical skill (some exotic subbranch of EE or plasma physics or statistics, whatever) which you would need to realize your error. Then your claims are perfectly sincere aren't they, so how could anyone lacking the same skill, but admirative of what other skills you may have -say you've got a nobel prize in electrochemistry and another one in calorimetry whether such prizes exist or not-, realize your error? Now push it further, imagine that among all CF experimenters (among whom, as an aside, you can see that some such as Naudin are clearly incompetent and/or fraudulent even with your limited scientific and technical skills), there are several such people whom you highly esteem, persisting in their error, some of them knowingly (some for commendable reasons and others not) but you're not aware of that, and you believe CF would be a really good thing for mankind, rightly so. How could you distinguish false claims from legitimate ones? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:44 AM Subject: [Vo]: More about the skeptics' mindsets >I wrote: > >>But in the case of the NHE and Toyota, I sense that the decision >>makers do not believe the results, so they lie about them. . . . > >>Our guess, based on talking with these people, is that when they saw >>positive results emerge, they thought something like this: >> >>"Damn, that looks like excess heat. It must be some kind of crazy >>instrument error, or just noise. > > What I am trying to say is, I do not think that any opponent of CF > thinks the effect might exist. None of them is thinking: "This is > real! I'll be out of a job if people find out! They will shut down > the hot fusion program!" > > Even in the oil industry I doubt anyone would go that far, but who knows. > > As far as I can tell, no opponent imagines that he is quashing what > Michel Jullian called "important stuff." They are sure it is > unimportant. Opponents are 100% certain that it is nonsense, garbage, > fraud, or, at least, a ridiculous waste of time. They figure, "why > not lie a little or fudge the data to get rid of what is obviously a > big lie and a travesty?" Also, they think it is a good idea to employ > insults, ridicule and ad hominem attacks. As David Lindley wrote in > Nature, in March 1990: > > "All cold fusion theories can be demolished one way or another, but > it takes some effort... Would a measure of unrestrained mockery, even > a little unqualified vituperation have speeded cold fusion's demise?" > > (You can see that I am not just trying to read their minds, and I am > "not making this stuff up" as Dave Barry used to say. The skeptics > boldly go on record saying things that in normal circumstances, any > scientist would consider appalling!) > > Skeptics attack CF only to prevent a small amount of funding from > being taken away from real science and diverted to schlock science. > And to protect the public reputation of science. Not because they > fear CF might actually someday succeed and then take away their entire program. > > Also, they attack it because they are upset that anyone would take it > seriously. They put it in the same category I put astrology or > creationism. The difference is that although I consider these things > to be nonsense, I am not upset by them. I do not care whether other > people spend time or money on them. But I would be upset if someone > got government funds to do creationist research, or if he taught it > in a public school. So I guess I can understand how the skeptics feel > about government funding for cold fusion. > > It is difficult for people who share my beliefs to understand how > these people think. You should not imagine they are evil, or they are > deliberately trying to prevent progress and quash academic freedom. > That is not how they see themselves. They commit evil acts, but it is > unintentional. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 01:57:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l199vms0008691; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:57:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l199vkmb008678; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:57:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:57:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:54:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now this is a website! In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_H4yl+l2rLhSG5/TsYC0b3g)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_H4yl+l2rLhSG5/TsYC0b3g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Everyday is judgement day. Harry John Berry wrote: I'm all for Apocalypse: Apocalypse (Greek : ?=BCok?luyi= V - translit. APOKALYPSIS, literally: the lifting of the veil), is a term applied to the disclosure to certain privileged persons of something hidden from the mass of humankind. Plus 2012 isn't the end of the mayan calenda, just the end of one part. On 2/9/07, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net > wrote: Vortexians; Those of you who have been on the list for a while know that I have a fascination with the apocalypse, and a gallows sense of humor. The author of this website was interviewed this morning on C to C AM, no matter what you think about his theories, you will, IMHO, appreciate the art that went into the introductory page. http://www.apocalypse2012.com . Momma mia, that's a spicy webpage! I'm reminded of a Tesla Society conference around 1992 where someone mentioned the wall in 2012, and remote viewing. That was before I heard about Hal Puthoff's role in the development of remote viewing, 2012 seemed a long way off at the time. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- --Boundary_(ID_H4yl+l2rLhSG5/TsYC0b3g) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Vo]: Now this is a website! Everyday is judgement day.
Harry

John Berry wrote:

I'm all for Apocalypse:

Apocalypse (Greek <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>= ; : ?=BCok?luyiV - translit. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration&= gt; APOKALYPSIS, literally: the lifting of the veil), is a term applied to t= he disclosure to certain privileged persons of something hidden from the mas= s of humankind.

Plus 2012 isn't the end of the mayan calenda, just the end of one part.

On 2/9/07, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net <mailto:temal= loy@usfamily.net> > wrote:
Vortexians;

Those of you who have been on the list for a while know that I have a
fascination with the apocalypse, and a gallows sense of humor. The
author of this website was interviewed this morning on C to C AM, no
matter what you think about his theories, you will, IMHO, appreciate the art that went into the introductory page. http://www.apocalypse2012.com
. Momma mia, that's a spicy webpage!

I'm reminded of a Tesla Society conference around 1992 where someone
mentioned the wall in 2012, and remote viewing. That was before I heard
about Hal Puthoff's role in the development of remote viewing, 2012
seemed a long way off at the time.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/= dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---




--Boundary_(ID_H4yl+l2rLhSG5/TsYC0b3g)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 03:28:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19BSerK016328; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 03:28:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19BSbje016305; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 03:28:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 03:28:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <107401c74c3d$69988df0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45CC37E7.2040402@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now this is a website! Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:28:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l19BSZv5016285 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ah, a fellow etymologist! There are occasions when I just can't be satisfied with a word until I know all about its origin. I felt such impulse about "anode" (Gk ana, up and odos, way) and "cathode" (kata, down and odos, way), what the hell was it that goes up or down in those electrodes? I was surprised to discover that the answer, much more complex than I expected, involves both astronomy and magnetism. A summary of this fascinating story here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anode http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode My rewriting of the general definitions, supported by the new etymology sections I wrote and the references I cited (my first significant contributions to Wikipedia), seem to have undergone only minor tweaks for about a month now, which I find a bit miraculous. Admittedly the matter is hardly as controversial as CF :) I wonder, were others here familiar with this little known story? I had a hard time collecting the bits and pieces and making a reasonably concise digest. If anyone is interested in the "Faraday consults the scholars..." paper, I can email him/her the pdf privately as it is not freely accessible any more (it was when I downloaded it). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Now this is a website! > I'm all for Apocalypse: > > *Apocalypse* (Greek : > Ἀποκάλυψις -translit. > APOKALYPSIS, literally: > the lifting of the veil), is a term applied to the > disclosure to certain privileged persons of something hidden from the mass > of humankind. > > Plus 2012 isn't the end of the mayan calenda, just the end of one part. > > On 2/9/07, thomas malloy wrote: >> >> Vortexians; >> >> Those of you who have been on the list for a while know that I have a >> fascination with the apocalypse, and a gallows sense of humor. The >> author of this website was interviewed this morning on C to C AM, no >> matter what you think about his theories, you will, IMHO, appreciate the >> art that went into the introductory page. http://www.apocalypse2012.com >> . Momma mia, that's a spicy webpage! >> >> I'm reminded of a Tesla Society conference around 1992 where someone >> mentioned the wall in 2012, and remote viewing. That was before I heard >> about Hal Puthoff's role in the development of remote viewing, 2012 >> seemed a long way off at the time. >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 06:34:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19EYQ7M018059; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:34:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19EYMHu018023; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:34:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:34:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:32:34 -0600 Message-ID: <001d01c74c57$4c57d9c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <001401c74bfd$b13443b0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Thread-Index: AcdL/doGImETTobjRymopfcyXEaqGAAVcLOg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <60kUX.A.YZE.uZIzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Water Vortex Video Status: RO X-Status: I had said I would make a video of my water vortex generator and have been putting it off. This morning I remembered I had made a video record for my self. It has plenty of good footage in it to show that the vortex is strictly a downward flow in the center, as evidenced by the air bubbles being dragged down. I hope you like Creedence. If you don't, just turn down the volume. There is no narrative as this was intended for my own personal enjoyment. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8468890437369216439 Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 06:45:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19EjZBH008136; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:45:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19EjXO3008118; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:45:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:45:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:45:24 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72647 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>Suppose you want to recharge a dozen cars at one time, ten times >>per hour (six minutes each) during the peak rush hour. That's 120 >I have a simple answer, you plug the car in when you shut it off. >I'm talking about a garden variety, 20 Amp plug in. That's fine for short trips, but Mike Carrell is saying that on long trips over highways beyond the range of the batteries quick to recharge electric cars have a real problem. He is right. A recharge station similar to a 12 page gasoline station would require a large bank of super capacitors and also a 1 MB or 2 MB power supply -- like the kind used in a large hospital or hotel. This would surely cost far more than a conventional gas station. The problem is not insurmountable but it would be expensive. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 06:50:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19Eo2lB013595; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:50:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19Eo0Kl013564; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:50:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:50:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094548.036b3048@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:49:57 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <001501c74bfe$83ef4160$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208161258.0368caf0@mindspring.com> <001501c74bfe$83ef4160$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72648 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >I replied to Jed's earlier post before seeing this one. The number >he uses 0.2-0.3 kWH/km is creeping in 'rush hour' traffic, not at >expressway speeds . . . No, that's for highway speeds. >The next idea is the battery swap, but who will trust that the >swapped battery is fully charged and not defective? The "swap" method works pretty well on a national basis for propane gas in the US, and for all kinds of heating and cooking gas in Japan. The company distributing the tank owns it; you rent it. See, for example, the Blue Rhino Propane Tank Exchange: http://www.bluerhino.com/br/WHERETOBUY/index.html "You can drop off your empty tank and pick a fresh, clean, inspected, precision filled and leak tested Blue Rhino ... wherever groceries, gas, or grills are sold." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 07:02:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19F1rvs009703; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:01:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19F1q32009681; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:01:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:01:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209095708.03665750@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:01:46 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <001401c74bfd$b13443b0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <001401c74bfd$b13443b0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8uhD8.A.NXC.fzIzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72649 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >I have read that to propel a standard car at 60 MPH over a level >highway takes only some 20+ horsepower delivered to the wheels. >That's about 14 kW. Do that for three hours and you have 42 kWH. Right. 14 kWh per hour. 60 mph = 100 kph. (Okay, 97 kph to be exact.) Divide 14 kWh by 100 km and you get 0.14 kWh per kilometer, as I said. Actually the AC charge is 0.2 to 0.3 because of inefficiencies charging batteries. It takes 0.3 to charge the battery and in the end ~0.14 kWh is delivered to the wheels on the highway. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 07:03:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19F3eGn026020; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:03:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19F3cHi026003; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:03:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:03:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209100204.036f5eb8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:03:23 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72650 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: ". . . would require a large bank of super capacitors and also a 1 MB or 2 MB power." Mega-WATT not byte! Megabytes hardly count these days. They used to cost $1000 and now they cost 0.05 cents. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 07:17:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19FHLXf023880; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:17:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19FHJEQ023860; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:17:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:17:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209100423.036bae38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:17:13 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Parasol Fix In-Reply-To: <45CC1872.7080904@usfamily.net> References: <45C981B8.6030109@usfamily.net> <0ccd01c74a8e$d1d35d10$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA08F4.9030408@usfamily.net> <0e6e01c74ae4$68b77180$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CA39EE.4010008@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207163740.036ffcc0@mindspring.com> <45CC1872.7080904@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72651 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >As for your Parasol Fix to Climate Change, You should have posted it >on a science fiction list Jed. They just spent $100 billion and 20 >years to build the ISS. Based on that, just how many trillion $, >over how many decades, do you think what your parasol project will cost? You missed my point. I said this could be done with a space elevator, which NASA currently projects would cost ~$6 billion. This would lower the cost per kilogram of putting material in orbit by a factor of thousand or more. Actually, I think it would be more like 100,000. Mylar space parasols would weigh ~7 g/m^2. Technology has drastically reduced the cost of other goods and services and there is every reason to think it can do the same for access to space. For you to claim that a parasol would cost trillions of dollars to deploy is like someone in the 1950s saying: "A child will never use a gigahertz class computer to play games, because such computers are physically impossible with vacuum tubes, and even if you could build one it would cost $100 million." Nowadays, hundreds of millions of children have such computers, some with 3.2-GHz processors that cost maybe $20 to manufacture. Even science fiction authors back in the 1950s could not imagine such a thing. When the space elevator was first proposed 30 years ago, it was estimated that it would take 750,000 shuttle missions to deploy one. With present techniques & materials it would take two shuttle missions to deploy one. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 07:39:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19FcuxQ005417; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:38:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19Fcs8B005392; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:38:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:38:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10d101c74c60$4a9ad160$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209100204.036f5eb8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:38:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l19Fcqrf005356 Resent-Message-ID: <9Fj1QD.A.IUB.OWJzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72652 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ah, I was wondering what that unit could be :) Battery swapping has been mentioned, why not just empty the "gas" station's full one into the car's empty one? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? >I wrote: > > ". . . would require a large bank of super capacitors and also a 1 MB > or 2 MB power." > > Mega-WATT not byte! Megabytes hardly count these days. They used to > cost $1000 and now they cost 0.05 cents. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 08:18:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19GIG20008669; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:18:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19GIB50008618; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:18:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:18:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209110502.036f0a00@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:17:16 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <10d101c74c60$4a9ad160$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209100204.036f5eb8@mindspring.com> <10d101c74c60$4a9ad160$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6832484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <_X8j5.A.kGC.C7JzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72653 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_6832484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michel Jullian wrote: >Battery swapping has been mentioned, why not just empty the "gas" >station's full one into the car's empty one? That is what we have in mind when we talk about a "bank" of supercapacitors. With something like a lead-acid battery which takes a long time to recharge, swapping battery packs is probably a more practical technique. This is an old idea. I recall reading about schemes to swap batteries back as 1960s, in Popular Science. Compared to 1960, it would be easier and safer to implement a battery exchange scheme nowadays, now that we have RFID tags, computer networks and so on. I doubt that many people would steal the battery packs, any more than they steal propane tanks today. (No doubt a few drunk high school kids do steal propane tanks.) A battery pack might be damaged in an accident, but this sort of thing could easily be checked for with computer testing systems. The propane tanks are also dangerous when they have been damaged, so they are checked with automatic equipment to ensure safety. I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range are either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the world had run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would have implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and everyone would take it for granted. - Jed --=====================_6832484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michel Jullian wrote:

Battery swapping has been mentioned, why not just empty the "gas" station's full one into the car's empty one?

That is what we have in mind when we talk about a "bank" of supercapacitors.

With something like a lead-acid battery which takes a long time to recharge, swapping battery packs is probably a more practical technique. This is an old idea. I recall reading about schemes to swap batteries back as 1960s, in Popular Science. Compared to 1960, it would be easier and safer to implement a battery exchange scheme nowadays, now that we have RFID tags, computer networks and so on. I doubt that many people would steal the battery packs, any more than they steal propane tanks today. (No doubt a few drunk high school kids do steal propane tanks.) A battery pack might be damaged in an accident, but this sort of thing could easily be checked for with computer testing systems. The propane tanks are also dangerous when they have been damaged, so they are checked with automatic equipment to ensure safety.

I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range are either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the world had run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would have implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and everyone would take it for granted.

- Jed
--=====================_6832484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 08:20:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19GKRKH007345; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:20:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19GKP8A007333; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:20:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:20:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=IBifJEnI0aHxwQ/pOVa5RFOGeAhlFmncAYCZFDBSHdZ9WgSpfcUuGvfPlKH8/DOZgzb2Rk77JKP0938DMJpmUbYYPQZ6bXL880n8r02yfCYEAUm0rlWirJ2ivJpy6WdHX8tKhm2InCA4BGZLTtoAlGBcSXg0C848CZYBKBoI+Sg= ; X-YMail-OSG: FuqT7XcVM1kkk745lIxONuPehbodzbBnQHhismfLK7NkAiXd.iem2eYGAZXokc1Yci3cgcuJzJXXFwMxr98XciMaAkrEOnUVZ7CJGcCL29FX6vnoSDLHWerHCe_51QNc.xiSgHeVajzgvdU- Message-ID: <45CC9DC1.4060809@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:13:53 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water Vortex Video References: <001d01c74c57$4c57d9c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001d01c74c57$4c57d9c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8hypaB.A.cyB.J9JzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72654 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks like you were going for an artistic/ecosystem approach. Have you considered using just the tapered cone for energy experimentation? Richard M. will be pleased with the nice tight helical channel in the cone, no doubt using less HP than he is using in his super-size-it water purifier. Google video has a lot of neat stuff under the "vortex" subject, but many of these vids try to blend-in too much cultish philosophy and alien-hocus-pocus for my taste... although admittedly the vortex itself, being a natural energy phenomenon (tornadoes, hurricanes) is a natural focal point for the merger of art, science and religion. We used to have an obsessive poster on Vo (should I say "another" obsessive poster) who kept haranguing the group with a constant flow of Viktor Schauberger proposals- so the meme behind all of this fascination must be something akin to a computer "virus" right, Richard? For those interested in pursuing a practical low-energy-input chemical vortex-based reactor, check out the double "V" impeller which is shown about 30-40% through this video. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3626121571675604193&q=vortex With something similar to the the double inverted V impeller [which can be easily made for much less$ than this company would like to charge you] one can make a single shaft mixer unit which serves double-duty by entraining lots of air into water, for instance. Why would anyone want that, you ask? Without giving out too much proprietary information, let's just say that [using biomimicry as a teacher] - and using raw materials consisting of air, water and a colloidal catalyst, but without heat input above ambient, and with two other low-energy features, a similar setup will allow the high volume [and very inexpensive manufacture] of a fairly potent monopropellant "fuel". The lower impeller will keep a colloidal catalyst, such as a metal oxide, from agglomerating, and the upper impeller will force in the maximum amount of oxygen, so that you can continually make the product for an out-of-pocket cost of less than ~2 kWhr per gallon (45% enrichment). That is, if recurring bugs can be worked out. The trick is to remove the product continually in a dilute form, and enrich it in an adjoining vortex cascade -- as the catalyst being used is "two-way" and will function counter-productively over an equilibrium level. Ah... the multi-layered beauty of the vortex. Yes. I think that there is "something" almost genetically appealing in the nature of the generalized vortex-meme, including the newsgroup itself, which tends to bring out latent obsessive tendencies. Is that because DNA-helix is so similar? Or maybe, in the tradition of Vonnegut's strange take on life, it is because "water" is the ultimate source of intelligence in the universe and is just using so-called "life" as a vehicle for transportation? Jones Speaking of Strange Weather, smart-water, whether people should be allowed to smoke at home, and vanity face-creams: http://www.alternet.org/story/15939/ David Thomson wrote: > I had said I would make a video of my water vortex generator and have been > putting it off. This morning I remembered I had made a video record for my > self. It has plenty of good footage in it to show that the vortex is > strictly a downward flow in the center, as evidenced by the air bubbles > being dragged down. > > I hope you like Creedence. If you don't, just turn down the volume. There > is no narrative as this was intended for my own personal enjoyment. > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8468890437369216439 > > Dave > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 08:22:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19GLuLV007741; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:21:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19GLtmh007724; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:21:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:21:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209112004.03700f90@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:21:50 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7106328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72655 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7106328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks to voice input and force of habit, I wrote: >A recharge station similar to a 12 page gasoline station would >require a large bank of super capacitors and also a 1 MB or 2 MB >power supply . . . That is supposed to be a 12-bay gasoline station and a 1 MW or 2 MW power supply! Good grief. - Jed --=====================_7106328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to voice input and force of habit, I wrote:

A recharge station similar to a 12 page gasoline station would require a large bank of super capacitors and also a 1 MB or 2 MB power supply . . .

That is supposed to be a 12-bay gasoline station and a 1 MW or 2 MW power supply! Good grief.

- Jed
--=====================_7106328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 08:27:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19GQpAb016661; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:26:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19GQoxb016628; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:26:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:26:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:02:44 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-Reply-To: <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7381687==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72656 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7381687==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michel Jullian wrote: >Now try another impersonation. Imagine yourself in the place of a >hypothetical CF experimenter who realizes years later that his past >overunity claims were erroneous for some unobvious reason, but still >believes (rightly so maybe) that there must be a way to make CF >work. Would you endanger the whole field -and therefore the world- >by admitting your error, or would you keep quiet? I would say the likelihood of this is roughly equal to the likelihood that scientists will discover that copper and gold are the same element, or that the world is only 6000 years old. The over unity claims are not based on a researchers' opinions. They are based on replicated, peer-reviewed experimental evidence, fundamental laws of physics, and instruments and techniques that have been used in millions of experiments and industrial processes since the mid-19th century, such as calorimetry, autoradiographs and other x-ray detection, spectroscopy, tritium detection techniques and so on. These techniques have been used to confirm the results by hundreds of scientists in thousands of runs. If they could all be wrong for some reason, the experimental method itself does not work, and science would not exist. If a cold fusion researcher were for some reason to question his own high-Sigma result, he would be wrong. To take a concrete example, researchers at Caltech were convinced that they did not observe excess heat. They thought the calibration constant in their isoperibolic calorimeter was changing instead. However, I am sure they were wrong about that, and they did actually observe excess heat. Their opinions to the contrary count for nothing. Just because the people at Caltech cannot bring themselves to believe indisputable experimental proof of cold fusion, that does not give them leave to rewrite the laws of thermodynamics or to claim that an instrument developed by J. P. Joule in the 1840s does not work! Science is not based on opinions. It is based on what nature reveals, in replicated observations and instrument readings. The bedrock basis of the scientific method is that in the final analysis, all questions must be settled by experiment, and experiment alone. Experiment always trumps theory. When instruments show that a phenomenon occurs many times, in many different labs, with different instrument types, at a high signal-to-noise ratio, the issue is settled forever. It is beyond any rational doubt or argument. No better proof can exist in the physical universe. A scientist cannot "choose" not to believe the instrument readings, any more than a pilot can choose to pretend he is on the ground when the airplane is actually flying at 1,000 meters altitude. >Let's push it further. Imagine you lack, unknowingly, the particular >technical skill (some exotic subbranch of EE or plasma physics or >statistics, whatever) which you would need to realize your error. Cold fusion results are not based on exotic skills or subbranches. They are based on 19th century science that only a lunatic or creationist would dispute. The excess heat and tritium results are sometimes subtle, but in other cases they are tremendous and far beyond any possible instrument error. Sigma 100 excess heat and tritium at a million times background are not debatable, and there is no chance they are caused by error or contamination. I said that "people who do not believe what the instruments reveal are not scientists." Everyone knows that some working scientists do not believe cold fusion results, but they have temporarily stopped acting as scientists, just as a policeman who goes on a rampage and beats innocent people is not acting as a policeman. Skeptical scientists who reject cold fusion fall in two categories: 1. Those who have not seen the evidence, or who refuse to look at it. 2. Those who look at the evidence, agree that it is indisputable and then dismiss it anyway, such as the DoE reviewer who looked at Iwamura and wrote: "The paper by Iwamura et al. presented at ICCF10 (Ref. 47 in DOE31) does an exhaustive job of using a variety of modern analytical chemistry methods to identify elements produced on the surface of coated Pd cold-fusion foils. . . . The analytical results, from a variety of techniques, such as mass spectroscopy and electron spectroscopy, are very nice. It seems difficult at first glance to dispute the results. . . . From a nuclear physics perspective, such conclusions are not to be believed . . ." http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique This person is not acting as a scientist, and the last sentence has no meaning. It is not a "nuclear physics perspective"; it is an imaginary prospective, or one based on a kind of faith, a cult, or superstition. If you cannot "dispute" replicated results -- meaning you cannot find a technical error -- then you must believe them. Without this rule, no technical argument can be settled, and no scientific progress can occur. - Jed --=====================_7381687==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michel Jullian wrote:

Now try another impersonation. Imagine yourself in the place of a hypothetical CF experimenter who realizes years later that his past overunity claims were erroneous for some unobvious reason, but still believes (rightly so maybe) that there must be a way to make CF work. Would you endanger the whole field -and therefore the world- by admitting your error, or would you keep quiet?

I would say the likelihood of this is roughly equal to the likelihood that scientists will discover that copper and gold are the same element, or that the world is only 6000 years old.

The over unity claims are not based on a researchers' opinions. They are based on replicated, peer-reviewed experimental evidence, fundamental laws of physics, and instruments and techniques that have been used in millions of experiments and industrial processes since the mid-19th century, such as calorimetry, autoradiographs and other x-ray detection, spectroscopy, tritium detection techniques and so on. These techniques have been used to confirm the results by hundreds of scientists in thousands of runs. If they could all be wrong for some reason, the experimental method itself does not work, and science would not exist.

If a cold fusion researcher were for some reason to question his own high-Sigma result, he would be wrong. To take a concrete example, researchers at Caltech were convinced that they did not observe excess heat. They thought the calibration constant in their isoperibolic calorimeter was changing instead. However, I am sure they were wrong about that, and they did actually observe excess heat. Their opinions to the contrary count for nothing. Just because the people at Caltech cannot bring themselves to believe indisputable experimental proof of cold fusion, that does not give them leave to rewrite the laws of thermodynamics or to claim that an instrument developed by J. P. Joule in the 1840s does not work!

Science is not based on opinions. It is based on what nature reveals, in replicated observations and instrument readings. The bedrock basis of the scientific method is that in the final analysis, all questions must be settled by experiment, and experiment alone. Experiment always trumps theory. When instruments show that a phenomenon occurs many times, in many different labs, with different instrument types, at a high signal-to-noise ratio, the issue is settled forever. It is beyond any rational doubt or argument. No better proof can exist in the physical universe. A scientist cannot "choose" not to believe the instrument readings, any more than a pilot can choose to pretend he is on the ground when the airplane is actually flying at 1,000 meters altitude.


Let's push it further. Imagine you lack, unknowingly, the particular technical skill (some exotic subbranch of EE or plasma physics or statistics, whatever) which you would need to realize your error.

Cold fusion results are not based on exotic skills or subbranches. They are based on 19th century science that only a lunatic or creationist would dispute. The excess heat and tritium results are sometimes subtle, but in other cases they are tremendous and far beyond any possible instrument error. Sigma 100 excess heat and tritium at a million times background are not debatable, and there is no chance they are caused by error or contamination.

I said that "people who do not believe what the instruments reveal are not scientists." Everyone knows that some working scientists do not believe cold fusion results, but they have temporarily stopped acting as scientists, just as a policeman who goes on a rampage and beats innocent people is not acting as a policeman. Skeptical scientists who reject cold fusion fall in two categories:

1. Those who have not seen the evidence, or who refuse to look at it.

2. Those who look at the evidence, agree that it is indisputable and then dismiss it anyway, such as the DoE reviewer who looked at Iwamura and wrote:
"The paper by Iwamura et al. presented at ICCF10 (Ref. 47 in DOE31) does an exhaustive job of using a variety of modern analytical chemistry methods to identify elements produced on the surface of coated Pd cold-fusion foils. . . .
The analytical results, from a variety of techniques, such as mass spectroscopy and electron spectroscopy, are very nice. It seems difficult at first glance to dispute the results. . . .
From a nuclear physics perspective, such conclusions are not to be believed . . ."

http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique

This person is not acting as a scientist, and the last sentence has no meaning. It is not a "nuclear physics perspective"; it is an imaginary prospective, or one based on a kind of faith, a cult, or superstition. If you cannot "dispute" replicated results -- meaning you cannot find a technical error -- then you must believe them. Without this rule, no technical argument can be settled, and no scientific progress can occur.

- Jed
--=====================_7381687==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 09:44:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19Hinan024351; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:44:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19HilAZ024336; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:44:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:44:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Speed of light confirmed Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:59:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <45CB826F.4060809@pobox.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72657 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, >Yeah, I'll probably fiddle around some more with this, just because it >seems like the "pre-ring" is going the wrong way and I'd like to >understand why. That's good. While the scope precludes you from doing any interesting shock wave experiments ( way too slow ) you can certainly do some faster-than-light type experiments using lumped constant transmission lines. As regards the wire impedence, use a 400ohm carbon film resistor as your termination. This is good enough for basement work. When I worked with this I used aluminum foil to make ground planes, suspending wire above it in whatever form was important. Google around a bit on the term "time domain reflectometery" and you'll learn about how to characterize the line more accurately. But again, the scope is too slow to work such a small physical structure. BTW, the rule of thumb with aircore xmission line is 1ns/ft. Easy to remember, and it's always nice to put the kings feet in there somewhere... While you're chewing on yesterdays comments, take a few moments to read that section in Feynmans QED, http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8169.html where he talks about the photon taking all possible paths from the sender to the receiver. Strange, huh? Now think about that experiment you just did and that precursor signal I pointed out. Not so strange now... K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 10:06:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19I6kpj001306; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:06:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19I6iuI001288; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:06:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:06:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Water Vortex Video Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:06:21 -0600 Message-ID: <006b01c74c75$084fa370$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45CC9DC1.4060809@pacbell.net> Thread-Index: AcdMZtD9FZWfIqVJRIqupQa+LVWPTQACWZdA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <4rGNKC.A._T.0gLzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72658 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jones, > Looks like you were going for an artistic/ecosystem approach. I built this a couple years ago and intended to be looking at it constantly. There are no mountain streams here in the middle of Illinois, so it was necessary to observe an engineered vortex in my house. > Have you considered using just the tapered cone for energy > experimentation? My primary interest was to see if there was anything to Viktor Schauberger's observations. I can say that I noticed some rather strange, subtle phenomena. The vortex in the original setup (as seen in the video) is strictly driven by gravity flow water, rather than pressure provided by a pump. Also, the water was treated with fish and circulated to "organicize" it. The rocks helped to condition the water, as well. It didn't take long for algae to develop on the rocks, however algae never became a problem in the tanks. This was good, as it indicated the water was healthy. To my surprise, it seemed as though the water could react to emotions. When there was a certain balance between the angular momentum of the water and the gravitational pull, I could look at the water and change its height by thinking different emotions. I also noticed that the vortex was "firmer" and stayed near the top of the funnel during vernal and autumnal equinox, but fell to the bottom in the middle of the summer and winter. I'm still trying to figure out what physiological change in the water would cause this, although I'm fairly certain that it has to do with the conductance of the water and the alignment of the Earth's angular momentum with regard to the Sun. These effects were consistent over a two year period of constant operation. This summer I will dismantle the whole set and build a structure solely for scientific testing (minus the fish). I will experiment by applying changing magnetic and electric fields to the water in various ways. I will also install remote sensing thermometers, a flow meter, and buy a water test kit. For a water supply, I have rigged a rain barrel to capture untreated water. It will still be slightly polluted from dust and volcanoes, but it will be the same water that falls anywhere else. Observing the water vortex daily for two years has given me the intuitive understanding of vortices I had hoped to obtain. I can now see how to engineer vortices in other media, such as air molecules and various fields. I have already begun collecting the materials to build a magnetic field vortex generator. I'm hoping that subtle vorticular rotating magnetic fields can be used to condition DNA molecules in living organisms, thus causing the body to rebuild itself in a younger and healthier condition. I am now convinced that water is a living entity of a different order of existence. It may not have the organs and tissues of plants and animals, but it does possess the ability to interact with its environment beyond mere chemical and inertial actions. In a book I wrote, Secrets of the Aether, I provide the mathematical foundation for a new system of physics, based upon the same empirical data as Quantum Mechanics. In this theory, I provide a rational basis as to why magnetic flux is the reciprocal of conductance, and not resistance. I also provide pre-existing evidence demonstrating that conductance is a unit, which is directly related to emotions and feelings. All matter throughout the Universe, and even the fabric of space-time possesses the quality of conductance. I can now provide a scientific basis for explaining much of the so-called "psychic" phenomena, which is really the art of being able to recognize and manipulate conductance. I'm aware of the tornado in a can and other experiments regarding vortices. However, I am not interested in high energy (read destructive) uses of physics. My primary interest is in finding harmony and balance with nature, not using it to feed my personal greed or cause destruction on other aspects of existence. I have found a sure, scientific path that allows me to systematically explore the subtleties of physical and non-material existence, thus providing me the ultimate pleasure to be found in this Universe. You might say that my video explored the "artistic/ecosystem approach." As flattering as that is, I would add that it is also a fun, compassionate, and human approach. Thank you for watching it and giving your comments. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 10:39:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19IdBde018311; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:39:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19IdAD3018298; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:39:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:39:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:37:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l19Id9ac018279 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72659 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jed, This was a bit weak, I must say you did much better in your previous empathy exercise! I never asked what was the probability (which you underestimated BTW, in all fields of science there is at least _one_ renowned scientist who has made an error, can't you think of examples?), only what you would do if you were that scientist, or how you could distinguish that their claims are erroneous if you knew such scientists and trusted them because of their high skills. As for the missing skill or knowledge, nobody can know everything, why wouldn't say a highly competent electrochemist totally lack say EE skills? If you're satisfied now that the probability is not zero, can we go back to the "if" game? Imagine you're writing a SF book, which you're usually quite good at. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>Now try another impersonation. Imagine yourself in the place of a >>hypothetical CF experimenter who realizes years later that his past >>overunity claims were erroneous for some unobvious reason, but still >>believes (rightly so maybe) that there must be a way to make CF >>work. Would you endanger the whole field -and therefore the world- >>by admitting your error, or would you keep quiet? > > I would say the likelihood of this is roughly equal to the likelihood > that scientists will discover that copper and gold are the same > element, or that the world is only 6000 years old. > > The over unity claims are not based on a researchers' opinions. They > are based on replicated, peer-reviewed experimental evidence, > fundamental laws of physics, and instruments and techniques that have > been used in millions of experiments and industrial processes since > the mid-19th century, such as calorimetry, autoradiographs and other > x-ray detection, spectroscopy, tritium detection techniques and so > on. These techniques have been used to confirm the results by > hundreds of scientists in thousands of runs. If they could all be > wrong for some reason, the experimental method itself does not work, > and science would not exist. > > If a cold fusion researcher were for some reason to question his own > high-Sigma result, he would be wrong. To take a concrete example, > researchers at Caltech were convinced that they did not observe > excess heat. They thought the calibration constant in their > isoperibolic calorimeter was changing instead. However, I am sure > they were wrong about that, and they did actually observe excess > heat. Their opinions to the contrary count for nothing. Just because > the people at Caltech cannot bring themselves to believe indisputable > experimental proof of cold fusion, that does not give them leave to > rewrite the laws of thermodynamics or to claim that an instrument > developed by J. P. Joule in the 1840s does not work! > > Science is not based on opinions. It is based on what nature reveals, > in replicated observations and instrument readings. The bedrock basis > of the scientific method is that in the final analysis, all questions > must be settled by experiment, and experiment alone. Experiment > always trumps theory. When instruments show that a phenomenon occurs > many times, in many different labs, with different instrument types, > at a high signal-to-noise ratio, the issue is settled forever. It is > beyond any rational doubt or argument. No better proof can exist in > the physical universe. A scientist cannot "choose" not to believe the > instrument readings, any more than a pilot can choose to pretend he > is on the ground when the airplane is actually flying at 1,000 meters altitude. > > >>Let's push it further. Imagine you lack, unknowingly, the particular >>technical skill (some exotic subbranch of EE or plasma physics or >>statistics, whatever) which you would need to realize your error. > > Cold fusion results are not based on exotic skills or subbranches. > They are based on 19th century science that only a lunatic or > creationist would dispute. The excess heat and tritium results are > sometimes subtle, but in other cases they are tremendous and far > beyond any possible instrument error. Sigma 100 excess heat and > tritium at a million times background are not debatable, and there is > no chance they are caused by error or contamination. > > I said that "people who do not believe what the instruments reveal > are not scientists." Everyone knows that some working scientists do > not believe cold fusion results, but they have temporarily stopped > acting as scientists, just as a policeman who goes on a rampage and > beats innocent people is not acting as a policeman. Skeptical > scientists who reject cold fusion fall in two categories: > > 1. Those who have not seen the evidence, or who refuse to look at it. > > 2. Those who look at the evidence, agree that it is indisputable and > then dismiss it anyway, such as the DoE reviewer who looked at > Iwamura and wrote: > "The paper by Iwamura et al. presented at ICCF10 (Ref. 47 in DOE31) > does an exhaustive job of using a variety of modern analytical > chemistry methods to identify elements produced on the surface of > coated Pd cold-fusion foils. . . . > The analytical results, from a variety of techniques, such as mass > spectroscopy and electron spectroscopy, are very nice. It seems > difficult at first glance to dispute the results. . . . > From a nuclear physics perspective, such conclusions are not to be > believed . . ." > > http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique > > This person is not acting as a scientist, and the last sentence has > no meaning. It is not a "nuclear physics perspective"; it is an > imaginary prospective, or one based on a kind of faith, a cult, or > superstition. If you cannot "dispute" replicated results -- meaning > you cannot find a technical error -- then you must believe them. > Without this rule, no technical argument can be settled, and no > scientific progress can occur. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 10:57:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19IumMB027484; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:56:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19Iukgq027466; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10fe01c74c7b$da3ba9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209100204.036f5eb8@mindspring.com> <10d101c74c60$4a9ad160$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209110502.036f0a00@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:55:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l19Iuebm027432 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72660 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why sure, but what I meant is that imagining we have the supercapacitor betteries, there would be no point in swapping them rather than transferring the juice. With such betteries swapping just wouldn't fit in the picture, although as you say there would be no other option for lead-acid batteries. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>Battery swapping has been mentioned, why not just empty the "gas" >>station's full one into the car's empty one? > > That is what we have in mind when we talk about a "bank" of supercapacitors. > > With something like a lead-acid battery which takes a long time to > recharge, swapping battery packs is probably a more practical > technique. This is an old idea. I recall reading about schemes to > swap batteries back as 1960s, in Popular Science. Compared to 1960, > it would be easier and safer to implement a battery exchange scheme > nowadays, now that we have RFID tags, computer networks and so on. I > doubt that many people would steal the battery packs, any more than > they steal propane tanks today. (No doubt a few drunk high school > kids do steal propane tanks.) A battery pack might be damaged in an > accident, but this sort of thing could easily be checked for with > computer testing systems. The propane tanks are also dangerous when > they have been damaged, so they are checked with automatic equipment > to ensure safety. > > I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people > realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range are > either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the world had > run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would have > implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and > everyone would take it for granted. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 12:00:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19JxrDG004925; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:59:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19JxpAP004859; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:57:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-reply-to: <10fe01c74c7b$da3ba9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72661 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a bettery future you'll be able to live life at your own pace, rather than at the average pace. This will mean more action for those who feel under-stimulated, and less action for those who feel over-stimulated. Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:17 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> Battery swapping has been mentioned, why not just empty the "gas" >>> station's full one into the car's empty one? >> >> That is what we have in mind when we talk about a "bank" of supercapacitors. >> >> With something like a lead-acid battery which takes a long time to >> recharge, swapping battery packs is probably a more practical >> technique. This is an old idea. I recall reading about schemes to >> swap batteries back as 1960s, in Popular Science. Compared to 1960, >> it would be easier and safer to implement a battery exchange scheme >> nowadays, now that we have RFID tags, computer networks and so on. I >> doubt that many people would steal the battery packs, any more than >> they steal propane tanks today. (No doubt a few drunk high school >> kids do steal propane tanks.) A battery pack might be damaged in an >> accident, but this sort of thing could easily be checked for with >> computer testing systems. The propane tanks are also dangerous when >> they have been damaged, so they are checked with automatic equipment >> to ensure safety. >> >> I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people >> realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range are >> either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the world had >> run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would have >> implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and >> everyone would take it for granted. >> >> - Jed >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 13:13:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19LDhTD011170; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:13:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19LDgVi011156; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:13:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:13:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:13:36 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-Reply-To: <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24612609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72662 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24612609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michel Jullian wrote: >I never asked what was the probability (which you underestimated >BTW, in all fields of science there is at least _one_ renowned >scientist who has made an error, can't you think of examples?) Not just one! I know HUNDREDS of renowned scientists who have made huge errors for 17 years. They think cold fusion does not exist. People can always have wrong ideas. Throughout history most of our ideas have been wrong, and probably still are. Furthermore, experimental scientists often make mistakes. As Stan Pons says, "if we are right half the time we are doing well." However, it is the experiments which are right, not the researchers. As I said, the researchers at Caltech did the experiment correctly, they got the expected result, but they misunderstood their own work and they do not realize it proves cold fusion is real. On average, scientists doing experiments get it right. That is why we can be sure that replicated results are real. If that were not the case, science would not work. Individual automobile drivers do have accidents, but when you randomly select a group of 200 drivers you can be certain they will not all have an accident the same morning. When you take a group of 200 electrochemists and have them do research for 17 years, they will not all get the same wrong answers. What scientists do is a form of animal behavior -- primate behavior. Like any other animal behavior, it works most of the time, or they would stop doing it. Cats are good at catching birds and mice. Even though a cat will often fail to catch a mouse, you can be sure that as a species cats successfully catch mice because otherwise they would go extinct. >. . . only what you would do if you were that scientist, or how you >could distinguish that their claims are erroneous if you knew such >scientists and trusted them because of their high skills. I do not judge claims according to whether I trust the scientists or whether they are skilled and not. I judge the claims to be correct when the experiment is good, and it has been replicated. I interpret it according to the laws of physics. I know how calorimeters work. I know a good calorimeter when I see one, and I am confident that the laws of thermodynamics are intact, so I can be sure that cold fusion produces excess heat beyond the limits of chemistry. I do not "trust" researchers any more than I trust cats to catch mice. I do not need to have "faith" in cats. I know a dead mouse when I see it, and I know excess heat. > As for the missing skill or knowledge, nobody can know everything, > why wouldn't say a highly competent electrochemist totally lack say EE skills? First of all, that is impossible. No one can "totally lack" such skills and still get a degree in electrochemistry. All experimental scientists learn to use such instruments. Second, I have enough EE skills to recognize that a calorimeter is working -- or not. I recognize schlock research. Third, the the EE skills, instruments and techniques required to do cold fusion are not all that advanced. As I said, most of the instruments were perfected between 100 and 160 years ago. Of course even ancient instruments and tools can be difficult to use. Violins and axes were invented thousands of years ago yet they take skill to use correctly. I cannot play a violin, and although I have operated calorimeters, I have a lot to learn about them. But I can tell when someone else is using a violin or calorimeter correctly. If cold fusion called for advanced knowledge of complex instruments, and if the claims were extremely esoteric and subject to interpretation, or complex mathematical analysis, like the claims of the top quark, then perhaps hundreds of scientists working in one group might all be wrong. But hundreds of scientists could not have made independent mistakes measuring excess heat or tritium. >If you're satisfied now that the probability is not zero . . . The probability of 200 professional scientists making elementary mistakes day after day for for 17 years is as close to zero as you can get. It would not happen in the life of the universe. As I said, this would be like randomly selecting a group of 200 drivers every morning for 17 years and in every single case finding that all of the drivers you selected make a mistake and caused an accident every single day. 1,241,000 accidents in a row! Or, as I said, it is like randomly selecting 200 cats every month, and seeing every one of them starve to death in a country filled with mice. - Jed --=====================_24612609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michel Jullian wrote:

I never asked what was the probability (which you underestimated BTW, in all fields of science there is at least _one_ renowned scientist who has made an error, can't you think of examples?)

Not just one! I know HUNDREDS of renowned scientists who have made huge errors for 17 years. They think cold fusion does not exist. People can always have wrong ideas. Throughout history most of our ideas have been wrong, and probably still are. Furthermore, experimental scientists often make mistakes. As Stan Pons says, "if we are right half the time we are doing well."

However, it is the experiments which are right, not the researchers. As I said, the researchers at Caltech did the experiment correctly, they got the expected result, but they misunderstood their own work and they do not realize it proves cold fusion is real.

On average, scientists doing experiments get it right. That is why we can be sure that replicated results are real. If that were not the case, science would not work. Individual automobile drivers do have accidents, but when you randomly select a group of 200 drivers you can be certain they will not all have an accident the same morning. When you take a group of 200 electrochemists and have them do research for 17 years, they will not all get the same wrong answers.

What scientists do is a form of animal behavior -- primate behavior. Like any other animal behavior, it works most of the time, or they would stop doing it. Cats are good at catching birds and mice. Even though a cat will often fail to catch a mouse, you can be sure that as a species cats successfully catch mice because otherwise they would go extinct.


. . . only what you would do if you were that scientist, or how you could distinguish that their claims are erroneous if you knew such scientists and trusted them because of their high skills.

I do not judge claims according to whether I trust the scientists or whether they are skilled and not. I judge the claims to be correct when the experiment is good, and it has been replicated. I interpret it according to the laws of physics. I know how calorimeters work. I know a good calorimeter when I see one, and I am confident that the laws of thermodynamics are intact, so I can be sure that cold fusion produces excess heat beyond the limits of chemistry. I do not "trust" researchers any more than I trust cats to catch mice. I do not need to have "faith" in cats. I know a dead mouse when I see it, and I know excess heat.


 As for the missing skill or knowledge, nobody can know everything, why wouldn't say a highly competent electrochemist totally lack say EE skills?

First of all, that is impossible. No one can "totally lack" such skills and still get a degree in electrochemistry. All experimental scientists learn to use such instruments. Second, I have enough EE skills to recognize that a calorimeter is working -- or not. I recognize schlock research. Third, the the EE skills, instruments and techniques required to do cold fusion are not all that advanced. As I said, most of the instruments were perfected between 100 and 160 years ago. Of course even ancient instruments and tools can be difficult to use. Violins and axes were invented thousands of years ago yet they take skill to use correctly. I cannot play a violin, and although I have operated calorimeters, I have a lot to learn about them. But I can tell when someone else is using a violin or calorimeter correctly.

If cold fusion called for advanced knowledge of complex instruments, and if the claims were extremely esoteric and subject to interpretation, or complex mathematical analysis, like the claims of the top quark, then perhaps hundreds of scientists working in one group might all be wrong. But hundreds of scientists could not have made independent mistakes measuring excess heat or tritium.


If you're satisfied now that the probability is not zero . . .

The probability of 200 professional scientists making elementary mistakes day after day for for 17 years is as close to zero as you can get. It would not happen in the life of the universe. As I said, this would be like randomly selecting a group of 200 drivers every morning for 17 years and in every single case finding that all of the drivers you selected make a mistake and caused an accident every single day. 1,241,000 accidents in a row! Or, as I said, it is like randomly selecting 200 cats every month, and seeing every one of them starve to death in a country filled with mice.

- Jed
--=====================_24612609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 14:00:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19M09dF009422; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:00:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19M071p009399; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:00:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:00:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:57:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l19M01Dr009342 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72663 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I said imagine one CF experimenter, just one for a start, has been wrong and won't admit it, and you keep throwing various things at me to avoid the perspective. Why? Can't you question your beliefs even as a mere hypothesis? I am not saying this is so, just imagine. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>I never asked what was the probability (which you underestimated >>BTW, in all fields of science there is at least _one_ renowned >>scientist who has made an error, can't you think of examples?) > > Not just one! I know HUNDREDS of renowned scientists who have made > huge errors for 17 years. They think cold fusion does not exist. > People can always have wrong ideas. Throughout history most of our > ideas have been wrong, and probably still are. Furthermore, > experimental scientists often make mistakes. As Stan Pons says, "if > we are right half the time we are doing well." > > However, it is the experiments which are right, not the researchers. > As I said, the researchers at Caltech did the experiment correctly, > they got the expected result, but they misunderstood their own work > and they do not realize it proves cold fusion is real. > > On average, scientists doing experiments get it right. That is why we > can be sure that replicated results are real. If that were not the > case, science would not work. Individual automobile drivers do have > accidents, but when you randomly select a group of 200 drivers you > can be certain they will not all have an accident the same morning. > When you take a group of 200 electrochemists and have them do > research for 17 years, they will not all get the same wrong answers. > > What scientists do is a form of animal behavior -- primate behavior. > Like any other animal behavior, it works most of the time, or they > would stop doing it. Cats are good at catching birds and mice. Even > though a cat will often fail to catch a mouse, you can be sure that > as a species cats successfully catch mice because otherwise they > would go extinct. > > >>. . . only what you would do if you were that scientist, or how you >>could distinguish that their claims are erroneous if you knew such >>scientists and trusted them because of their high skills. > > I do not judge claims according to whether I trust the scientists or > whether they are skilled and not. I judge the claims to be correct > when the experiment is good, and it has been replicated. I interpret > it according to the laws of physics. I know how calorimeters work. I > know a good calorimeter when I see one, and I am confident that the > laws of thermodynamics are intact, so I can be sure that cold fusion > produces excess heat beyond the limits of chemistry. I do not "trust" > researchers any more than I trust cats to catch mice. I do not need > to have "faith" in cats. I know a dead mouse when I see it, and I > know excess heat. > > >> As for the missing skill or knowledge, nobody can know everything, >> why wouldn't say a highly competent electrochemist totally lack say EE skills? > > First of all, that is impossible. No one can "totally lack" such > skills and still get a degree in electrochemistry. All experimental > scientists learn to use such instruments. Second, I have enough EE > skills to recognize that a calorimeter is working -- or not. I > recognize schlock research. Third, the the EE skills, instruments and > techniques required to do cold fusion are not all that advanced. As I > said, most of the instruments were perfected between 100 and 160 > years ago. Of course even ancient instruments and tools can be > difficult to use. Violins and axes were invented thousands of years > ago yet they take skill to use correctly. I cannot play a violin, and > although I have operated calorimeters, I have a lot to learn about > them. But I can tell when someone else is using a violin or > calorimeter correctly. > > If cold fusion called for advanced knowledge of complex instruments, > and if the claims were extremely esoteric and subject to > interpretation, or complex mathematical analysis, like the claims of > the top quark, then perhaps hundreds of scientists working in one > group might all be wrong. But hundreds of scientists could not have > made independent mistakes measuring excess heat or tritium. > > >>If you're satisfied now that the probability is not zero . . . > > The probability of 200 professional scientists making elementary > mistakes day after day for for 17 years is as close to zero as you > can get. It would not happen in the life of the universe. As I said, > this would be like randomly selecting a group of 200 drivers every > morning for 17 years and in every single case finding that all of the > drivers you selected make a mistake and caused an accident every > single day. 1,241,000 accidents in a row! Or, as I said, it is like > randomly selecting 200 cats every month, and seeing every one of them > starve to death in a country filled with mice. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 14:33:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19MXGkF017464; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:33:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19MXEht017442; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:33:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:33:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TVZHLRg10hXYAaAXj9ZElAdXjgG8wgO1HVAcBOd6vHSYrYCrby6Ck5V9q0/W0atWbnIAtEkjGTTy+65xPg98LWlaXCPd8o5MGY8A3kvu5J2mY6H+qD8ZdSb0je6vkK9xpW9wKmB46ffXLnKCi5qTx5Lx32gMcR4jU2XZ2xx6xkI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:33:14 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water Vortex Video In-Reply-To: <001d01c74c57$4c57d9c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <001401c74bfd$b13443b0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <001d01c74c57$4c57d9c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72664 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/9/07, David Thomson wrote: > I had said I would make a video of my water vortex generator and have been > putting it off. This morning I remembered I had made a video record for my > self. It was kewl. But it made me have to go pee. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 14:38:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19Mchep031163; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:38:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19McgMX031150; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:38:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:38:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209170825.03712bc8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:38:12 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-Reply-To: <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72665 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >I said imagine one CF experimenter, just one for a start, has been >wrong and won't admit it . . . No problem. Heck, I know many CF researchers who have been wrong and will not admit it. Just about everyone at the NHE lab was wrong. I know some false negatives such as CalTech, and false positives. I know a few people -- maybe 5 or 10 -- who found out after a long time that their experiments were wrong, and the excess heat is not real, but they never published a retraction. They just faded away and stopped attending conferences. You are correct that some of these people probably kept a low profile in order to keep from damaging the field. Or they were just embarrassed. Some claimed they lost interest. Of course it makes no sense to talk about "damaging the field." A mistaken claim made by one researcher does not cast doubt on results published by Melvin Miles or Mike McKubre. >. . . and you keep throwing various things at me to avoid the >perspective. Why? Can't you question your beliefs even as a mere hypothesis? No, not these particular beliefs, because they are not hypothetical. They are observations based on experiments. Experiments are never wrong. Observations made by people thousands of years ago are as certain now as they were back then. For example, people found out by experiment that hammering hot iron makes it harder. There is no doubt about this. It is forever true, and beyond question. People found out circa 1985 that loading palladium with deuterium sometimes makes it generate non-chemical excess heat. That is a fact, now and forever. Only hypotheses, theories or conclusions can be wrong. You would have to be crazy or extremely stupid to accept cold fusion as a hypothesis, because it seems to contradict so much accepted theory. There is no hypothetical basis for it, as far as I know. Of course I have many other beliefs which are hypotheses. I can easily imagine that such notions, based on theory, hunch, or blind acceptance of widely held ideas are wrong. In fact, I expect nearly all are wrong! And the rest are inaccurate, oversimplified, or incomplete. Throughout history most people's notions have been wrong, and there is no reason to think we have reached the end of history. > I am not saying this is so, just imagine. Trying to imagine that replicated experiments are wrong is like trying to imagine that 2+2=5. I find that simply unimaginable. That's like believing in miracles. You have to make a clear distinction between observed facts, and hypotheses. Of course in some cases it is difficult to separate them and know which one you are dealing with. (But not with cold fusion, fortunately.) They do get mixed together. Plus, theory and wishful thinking always inform observations, and often lead us astray. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 14:43:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19MhmXn020160; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:43:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19MhlDZ020140; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:43:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:43:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:45:46 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72666 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me throw my two cents into this discussion. Of course some people doing cold fusion have made mistakes and reported bad data. This is not the issue. When this happen in normal science, people go back to the lab and try again. In cold fusion, the error is used to discredit the whole idea. That is the issue! Cold fusion needs to treated just like any other science, mistakes and all. Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > I said imagine one CF experimenter, just one for a start, has been wrong and won't admit it, and you keep throwing various things at me to avoid the perspective. Why? Can't you question your beliefs even as a mere hypothesis? I am not saying this is so, just imagine. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:13 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > > > >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>I never asked what was the probability (which you underestimated >>>BTW, in all fields of science there is at least _one_ renowned >>>scientist who has made an error, can't you think of examples?) >> >>Not just one! I know HUNDREDS of renowned scientists who have made >>huge errors for 17 years. They think cold fusion does not exist. >>People can always have wrong ideas. Throughout history most of our >>ideas have been wrong, and probably still are. Furthermore, >>experimental scientists often make mistakes. As Stan Pons says, "if >>we are right half the time we are doing well." >> >>However, it is the experiments which are right, not the researchers. >>As I said, the researchers at Caltech did the experiment correctly, >>they got the expected result, but they misunderstood their own work >>and they do not realize it proves cold fusion is real. >> >>On average, scientists doing experiments get it right. That is why we >>can be sure that replicated results are real. If that were not the >>case, science would not work. Individual automobile drivers do have >>accidents, but when you randomly select a group of 200 drivers you >>can be certain they will not all have an accident the same morning. >>When you take a group of 200 electrochemists and have them do >>research for 17 years, they will not all get the same wrong answers. >> >>What scientists do is a form of animal behavior -- primate behavior. >>Like any other animal behavior, it works most of the time, or they >>would stop doing it. Cats are good at catching birds and mice. Even >>though a cat will often fail to catch a mouse, you can be sure that >>as a species cats successfully catch mice because otherwise they >>would go extinct. >> >> >> >>>. . . only what you would do if you were that scientist, or how you >>>could distinguish that their claims are erroneous if you knew such >>>scientists and trusted them because of their high skills. >> >>I do not judge claims according to whether I trust the scientists or >>whether they are skilled and not. I judge the claims to be correct >>when the experiment is good, and it has been replicated. I interpret >>it according to the laws of physics. I know how calorimeters work. I >>know a good calorimeter when I see one, and I am confident that the >>laws of thermodynamics are intact, so I can be sure that cold fusion >>produces excess heat beyond the limits of chemistry. I do not "trust" >>researchers any more than I trust cats to catch mice. I do not need >>to have "faith" in cats. I know a dead mouse when I see it, and I >>know excess heat. >> >> >> >>> As for the missing skill or knowledge, nobody can know everything, >>>why wouldn't say a highly competent electrochemist totally lack say EE skills? >> >>First of all, that is impossible. No one can "totally lack" such >>skills and still get a degree in electrochemistry. All experimental >>scientists learn to use such instruments. Second, I have enough EE >>skills to recognize that a calorimeter is working -- or not. I >>recognize schlock research. Third, the the EE skills, instruments and >>techniques required to do cold fusion are not all that advanced. As I >>said, most of the instruments were perfected between 100 and 160 >>years ago. Of course even ancient instruments and tools can be >>difficult to use. Violins and axes were invented thousands of years >>ago yet they take skill to use correctly. I cannot play a violin, and >>although I have operated calorimeters, I have a lot to learn about >>them. But I can tell when someone else is using a violin or >>calorimeter correctly. >> >>If cold fusion called for advanced knowledge of complex instruments, >>and if the claims were extremely esoteric and subject to >>interpretation, or complex mathematical analysis, like the claims of >>the top quark, then perhaps hundreds of scientists working in one >>group might all be wrong. But hundreds of scientists could not have >>made independent mistakes measuring excess heat or tritium. >> >> >> >>>If you're satisfied now that the probability is not zero . . . >> >>The probability of 200 professional scientists making elementary >>mistakes day after day for for 17 years is as close to zero as you >>can get. It would not happen in the life of the universe. As I said, >>this would be like randomly selecting a group of 200 drivers every >>morning for 17 years and in every single case finding that all of the >>drivers you selected make a mistake and caused an accident every >>single day. 1,241,000 accidents in a row! Or, as I said, it is like >>randomly selecting 200 cats every month, and seeing every one of them >>starve to death in a country filled with mice. >> >>- Jed >> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 15:06:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19N62RA012535; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:06:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19N60Ja012516; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:06:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:06:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209175722.03700f90@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:05:50 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-Reply-To: <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72667 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Let me throw my two cents into this discussion. Of course some >people doing cold fusion have made mistakes and reported bad data. Right. And this is like saying that some programmers write programs with bugs, some doctors accidentally kill patients, and some people drive their cars into trees by accident. People in all walks of life make mistakes. >This is not the issue. When this happen in normal science, people go >back to the lab and try again. Right again. And programmers correct their mistakes. (Or at Microsoft, they declare that the mistake is a feature, they charge extra for it, and then they charge you to get rid of it.) >In cold fusion, the error is used to discredit the whole idea. That >is the issue! Cold fusion needs to treated just like any other >science, mistakes and all. Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you do not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist. I know perfectly well that some CF researchers are wrong, but it is inconceivable that all of them are wrong. The two assertions must not be confused. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 15:42:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19Ng45Z017818; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19Nfxuw017714; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:41:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:41:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <114a01c74ca3$9ba105f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209175722.03700f90@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:39:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l19Nfub2017685 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72668 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK this sounds more sensible, we have gone even beyond the stage of a hypothesis (I myself have witnessed such bad CF experiments). CF presented in this more realistic light, mistakes and all, looks more like real science. A lot of weeding would have to be done, but that's another story. Best is to concentrate on the experiments which are thought/known to work, and validate them. Ideally they should pass the Earthtech test, after which they could go and claim the Randi prize without further ado. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > Edmund Storms wrote: > >>Let me throw my two cents into this discussion. Of course some >>people doing cold fusion have made mistakes and reported bad data. > > Right. And this is like saying that some programmers write programs > with bugs, some doctors accidentally kill patients, and some people > drive their cars into trees by accident. People in all walks of life > make mistakes. > > >>This is not the issue. When this happen in normal science, people go >>back to the lab and try again. > > Right again. And programmers correct their mistakes. (Or at > Microsoft, they declare that the mistake is a feature, they charge > extra for it, and then they charge you to get rid of it.) > > >>In cold fusion, the error is used to discredit the whole idea. That >>is the issue! Cold fusion needs to treated just like any other >>science, mistakes and all. > > Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you do > not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist. > > I know perfectly well that some CF researchers are wrong, but it is > inconceivable that all of them are wrong. The two assertions must not > be confused. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 15:58:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19NvDkS030446; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:57:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l19NuWgH029965; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:56:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:56:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:53:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <04d501c74c53$3e637350$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_G7iCnalKOl1qS6NoxJ+07Q)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <5qa65C.A.9TH.voQzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72669 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_G7iCnalKOl1qS6NoxJ+07Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT New Scientist - NEWS ALERT --------------------------------------------------------------------- $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Come up with a system for removing a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and you could win the biggest prize in history, says its sponsor, Richard Branson, head of Virgin Group. The judges of the prize include former US vice president Al Gore, Jim Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute and James Lovelock, the father of the Gaia theory. Read the full story here: http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11146-25-million-dollar-prize- for-greenhouse-gas-removal.html Science and technology news and features updated daily at http://www.newscientist.com --Boundary_(ID_G7iCnalKOl1qS6NoxJ+07Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal

New Scientist - NEWS ALERT

---------------------------------------------------------------------
$25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal

Come up with a system for removing a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and you could win the biggest prize in history, says its sponsor, Richard Branson, head of Virgin Group.

The judges of the prize include former US vice president Al Gore, Jim Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute and James Lovelock, the father of the Gaia theory.

Read the full story here:
http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11146-25-million-dollar-prize-for-greenhouse-gas-removal.html

Science and technology news and features updated daily at
http://www.newscientist.com
 --Boundary_(ID_G7iCnalKOl1qS6NoxJ+07Q)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 16:02:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A020lS024764; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:02:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A01xRs024746; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:01:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:01:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=c/gReGRIk7VBuXKdMfrsC56ykWzqt/bZr0zrNoL/3zGcqomDibV8BPCmGBgd3ToB; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-reply-to:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:01:52 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74C74.60C63BF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26099c95cd80c329e478acc02c8ffba66231666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72670 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74C74.60C63BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removalIsn't that a big funny? If life is about to end because of global warming why is removal of Green House Gasses only worth $25Mil, yet a way to produce or filter water is worth $200 Billion? I doubt I would even start for $25 Million when 60% goes to the Feds. When I read who was involved I see why... -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal New Scientist - NEWS ALERT --------------------------------------------------------------------- $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Come up with a system for removing a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and you could win the biggest prize in history, says its sponsor, Richard Branson, head of Virgin Group. The judges of the prize include former US vice president Al Gore, Jim Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute and James Lovelock, the father of the Gaia theory. Read the full story here: http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11146-25-million-dollar-priz e-for-greenhouse-gas-removal.html Science and technology news and features updated daily at http://www.newscientist.com -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.2/613 - Release Date: 1/1/2007 2:50 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74C74.60C63BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas = removal
Isn't=20 that a big funny?
 
If=20 life is about to end because of global warming why is removal of Green = House=20 Gasses only worth $25Mil, yet a way to produce or filter water is worth = $200=20 Billion?
 
I=20 doubt I would even start for $25 Million when 60% goes to the=20 Feds.
 
When I=20 read who was involved I see why...
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder=20 [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca]
Sent: Friday, February = 09, 2007=20 5:54 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: FW: = $25=20 million prize for greenhouse gas = removal



New=20 Scientist - NEWS=20 = ALERT

------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
$25=20 million prize for greenhouse gas removal

Come up with a system = for=20 removing a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and = you could=20 win the biggest prize in history, says its sponsor, Richard Branson, = head of=20 Virgin Group.

The judges of the prize include former US vice = president=20 Al Gore, Jim Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute and James=20 Lovelock, the father of the Gaia theory.

Read the full story=20 = here:
http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11146-25-million-d= ollar-prize-for-greenhouse-gas-removal.html

Science=20 and technology news and features updated daily at=20
http://www.newscientist.com
 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74C74.60C63BF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 17:00:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A10St4009271; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:00:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A10QBx009222; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:00:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:00:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=f7pZxNsLbNyVFoIbfS5qaZgQPnJMXpPNDiu+X5f4kNmF15072COnNrHeXHcA+WVd; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <25757791.1171069222856.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:00:22 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8d206aa47787a539b3375950175b4d460387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.42 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72671 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 9, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Feb 9, 2007 1:29 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 9, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 9 Feb 07 Washington, DC 1. SKIPPING AHEAD: BUSH SENDS CONGRESS HIS 2008 BUDGET REQUEST. Congress, however, is still trying to put together a 2007 budget. The 2008 request isn't great news for every field of research, but in physics, NSF, NIST and the DOE Office of Science did well. In the absence of a 2007 budget, agencies are still spending at 2006 levels. However, a resolution adopted by the House does call for 2007 increases at NSF, NIST, and the DOE Office of Science. The Senate will presumably take up the House resolution soon. In any case, a 2008 budget won't pass Congress before October. Meanwhile, the Iraq War and the climate are both heating up, and the Democrats committed themselves to balancing the budget. This is not very promising for science funding. 2. SPACE STATION: LATEST ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN SPACE EXPLORATION. The "space-exploration" component of the request, got one of the largest increases. "Exploration" has come to mean "exploration by astronauts," so we decided to let you know how "exploration" is going. The only space being explored right now is the orbit of the ISS, about 400 km above Earth. It was a big week on the ISS: The cooling system was overhauled. In the process, two records in space walking were set. NASA announced that station commander Michael Lopez-Alegria now holds the U.S. record, 61 hrs and 22 min, while astronaut Sunita Williams set the women's record at 22 hrs and 27 min. Way to go guys! The Mars Rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, of course, set records every day, but they don't count because they aren't people. On the positive side, robots never require psychological counseling. 3. COUNSELING: LOOK WHAT IT DID FOR TED HAGGARD IN ONLY 3 WEEKS. "Pastor Ted" resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals after he admitted buying meth from his male prostitute http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn110306.html . He has since undergone three weeks of intensive counseling overseen by four evangelical ministers, and emerged "completely heterosexual." NASA might want to talk to his therapist. 4. THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE: "ENFORCING" POPULATION LIMITATIONS? Several readers last week took WN to task over the population question. Should we force abortions, they ask, or jail parents, or take even more stringent measures? That doesn't seem to be necessary. Among affluent and educated nations, native-born populations are stable or shrinking now. Their growth is almost entirely by immigration. All that's needed is to remove our legal obstacles to birth control, and raise the standard of living and educational level of impoverished nations. That would probably be enough. If not, reduce tax deductions and other fecundity incentives. A few will still behave irresponsibly, but society can tolerate them in the name of freedom as we do with those who are environmentally insensitive. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 17:53:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A1rOVR010675; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:53:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A1rNuG010620; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:53:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c74cb6$3bdb86f0$d9037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:53:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C74C83.F06B2950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72672 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C74C83.F06B2950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Stiffler wrote... Isn't that a big funny? If life is about to end because of global warming why is removal of = Green House Gasses only worth $25Mil, yet a way to produce or filter = water is worth $200 Billion? I doubt I would even start for $25 Million when 60% goes to the Feds. When I read who was involved I see why. Howdy Ron, Don't forget Ted Turner. He was in Houston touting the word..Ted = has some serious money he could use if it isn't all going to Jane = Fonda's alimony fund. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C74C83.F06B2950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas = removal
 Stiffler wrote...

Isn't that a big funny?
 
If=20 life is about to end because of global warming why is removal of Green = House=20 Gasses only worth $25Mil, yet a way to produce or filter water is = worth $200=20 Billion?
 
I=20 doubt I would even start for $25 Million when 60% goes to the=20 Feds.
 
When=20 I read who was involved I see why.
 
Howdy=20 Ron,
 
    Don't forget Ted Turner. He was in Houston = touting=20 the word..Ted has some serious money he could use if it isn't all = going to=20 Jane Fonda's alimony fund.
 
    Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C74C83.F06B2950-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 18:16:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A2G9mT018867; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:16:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A2G2fS018601; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:16:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:16:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:13:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4adoAwOrD6hsNkjpozPL4w)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <0BXQBB.A.fiE.hrSzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72673 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_4adoAwOrD6hsNkjpozPL4w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The winning concept only has to look good on paper. At least that is my impression after I quickly scanned the competition's website . Harry Stiffler Scientific wrote: Isn't that a big funny? If life is about to end because of global warming why is removal of Green House Gasses only worth $25Mil, yet a way to produce or filter water is worth $200 Billion? I doubt I would even start for $25 Million when 60% goes to the Feds. When I read who was involved I see why... -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal New Scientist - NEWS ALERT --------------------------------------------------------------------- $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal Come up with a system for removing a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and you could win the biggest prize in history, says its sponsor, Richard Branson, head of Virgin Group. The judges of the prize include former US vice president Al Gore, Jim Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute and James Lovelock, the father of the Gaia theory. Read the full story here: http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11146-25-million-dollar-prize- for-greenhouse-gas-removal.html Science and technology news and features updated daily at http://www.newscientist.com --Boundary_(ID_4adoAwOrD6hsNkjpozPL4w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal
The winning concept only has to look good on paper.
At least that is my impression after I quickly scanned the
competition's website  <http://www.virginearth.com> .

Harry

Stiffler Scientific wrote:

Isn't that a big funny?
If life is about to end because of global warming why is removal of Green House Gasses only worth $25Mil, yet a way to produce or filter water is worth $200 Billion?
I doubt I would even start for $25 Million when 60% goes to the Feds.
When I read who was involved I see why...
-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca]
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:54 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: FW: $25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal



New Scientist - NEWS ALERT

---------------------------------------------------------------------
$25 million prize for greenhouse gas removal

Come up with a system for removing a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and you could win the biggest prize in history, says its sponsor, Richard Branson, head of Virgin Group.

The judges of the prize include former US vice president Al Gore, Jim Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute and James Lovelock, the father of the Gaia theory.

Read the full story here:
http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn11146-25-million-dollar-prize-for-greenhouse-gas-removal.html

Science and technology news and features updated daily at
http://www.newscientist.com


--Boundary_(ID_4adoAwOrD6hsNkjpozPL4w)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 22:48:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A6mjmc006231; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:48:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A6mgnV006214; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:48:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:48:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:45:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209110502.036f0a00@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_/dRT+oqzhU3CkyApwHu8Ug)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-7F4IB.A.9gB.KrWzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72674 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_/dRT+oqzhU3CkyApwHu8Ug) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jed Rothwell wrote: I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range are either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the world had run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would have implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and everyone would take it for granted. - Jed Anyone consider electric planes? Lifters? Harry --Boundary_(ID_/dRT+oqzhU3CkyApwHu8Ug) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: "Bettery"  on-the-way? Jed Rothwell wrote:


I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range are either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the world had run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would have implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and everyone would take it for granted.

- Jed


Anyone consider electric planes?

Lifters?

Harry --Boundary_(ID_/dRT+oqzhU3CkyApwHu8Ug)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 00:49:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A8nfSf001328; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:49:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A8ncb8001311; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:49:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <119b01c74cf0$1ad3ab10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209175722.03700f90@mindspring.com> <114a01c74ca3$9ba105f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:47:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1A8naxQ001293 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72675 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On second thought the weeding would have to be done now, otherwise people will try for ever to replicate the so-and-so experiment without success, or worse bringing in their own sources of errors and thinking they have succeeded. To be able to concentrate on good experiments, the bad ones must be identified I am afraid, including when the people who performed them are close friends, that's where it gets hard. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > OK this sounds more sensible, we have gone even beyond the stage of a hypothesis (I myself have witnessed such bad CF experiments). CF presented in this more realistic light, mistakes and all, looks more like real science. A lot of weeding would have to be done, but that's another story. Best is to concentrate on the experiments which are thought/known to work, and validate them. Ideally they should pass the Earthtech test, after which they could go and claim the Randi prize without further ado. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:05 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > > >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>>Let me throw my two cents into this discussion. Of course some >>>people doing cold fusion have made mistakes and reported bad data. >> >> Right. And this is like saying that some programmers write programs >> with bugs, some doctors accidentally kill patients, and some people >> drive their cars into trees by accident. People in all walks of life >> make mistakes. >> >> >>>This is not the issue. When this happen in normal science, people go >>>back to the lab and try again. >> >> Right again. And programmers correct their mistakes. (Or at >> Microsoft, they declare that the mistake is a feature, they charge >> extra for it, and then they charge you to get rid of it.) >> >> >>>In cold fusion, the error is used to discredit the whole idea. That >>>is the issue! Cold fusion needs to treated just like any other >>>science, mistakes and all. >> >> Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you do >> not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist. >> >> I know perfectly well that some CF researchers are wrong, but it is >> inconceivable that all of them are wrong. The two assertions must not >> be confused. >> >> - Jed >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 01:21:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A9KsWx012090; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:20:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A9KnND012053; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:20:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:20:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WhiN+eblCnvtyNraEoaMzmrbocavpsRJyAC3psSNu6JI+EmPuYqau/ZFgCGI++1vvNDDl4jw/HhjRkvwsu95agL4NJB7ZJ5HdW8GYYFxhjVIfDnLOWd0XaTqQ2ZcpZeExJ/TrVlJ71vIUli8JJzSdiwS/pqE1WfZeRNR0XhrVGE= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:20:49 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22319_27199468.1171099249004" References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72676 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_22319_27199468.1171099249004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jed, you are right in everything you say. Though by the same token there are many things that are proven and yet utterly ignored because people think that the limits they place on the universe actually mean something, why they think their model of the universe trumps irrefutable proof of how the universe really works I don't honestly know. To quote a TV pilot that you'll never see on TV 'It doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense'. My point is that while you are right, cold fusion is the least of what is provably real yet denied and I'd wonder if you may flat out deny some of the other stuff too. (No, I don't want to get into an argument about different types of evidence) On 2/10/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Now try another impersonation. Imagine yourself in the place of a > hypothetical CF experimenter who realizes years later that his past > overunity claims were erroneous for some unobvious reason, but still > believes (rightly so maybe) that there must be a way to make CF work. Would > you endanger the whole field -and therefore the world- by admitting your > error, or would you keep quiet? > > > I would say the likelihood of this is roughly equal to the likelihood that > scientists will discover that copper and gold are the same element, or that > the world is only 6000 years old. > > The over unity claims are not based on a researchers' opinions. They are > based on replicated, peer-reviewed experimental evidence, fundamental laws > of physics, and instruments and techniques that have been used in millions > of experiments and industrial processes since the mid-19th century, such as > calorimetry, autoradiographs and other x-ray detection, spectroscopy, > tritium detection techniques and so on. These techniques have been used to > confirm the results by hundreds of scientists in thousands of runs. If they > could all be wrong for some reason, the experimental method itself does not > work, and science would not exist. > > If a cold fusion researcher were for some reason to question his own > high-Sigma result, he would be wrong. To take a concrete example, > researchers at Caltech were convinced that they did not observe excess heat. > They thought the calibration constant in their isoperibolic calorimeter was > changing instead. However, I am sure they were wrong about that, and they > did actually observe excess heat. Their opinions to the contrary count for > nothing. Just because the people at Caltech cannot bring themselves to > believe indisputable experimental proof of cold fusion, that does not give > them leave to rewrite the laws of thermodynamics or to claim that an > instrument developed by J. P. Joule in the 1840s does not work! > > Science is not based on opinions. It is based on what nature reveals, in > replicated observations and instrument readings. The bedrock basis of the > scientific method is that in the final analysis, all questions must be > settled by experiment, and *experiment alone*. Experiment always trumps > theory. When instruments show that a phenomenon occurs many times, in many > different labs, with different instrument types, at a high signal-to-noise > ratio, the issue is settled forever. It is beyond any rational doubt or > argument. No better proof can exist in the physical universe. A scientist > cannot "choose" not to believe the instrument readings, any more than a > pilot can choose to pretend he is on the ground when the airplane is > actually flying at 1,000 meters altitude. > > > Let's push it further. Imagine you lack, unknowingly, the particular > technical skill (some exotic subbranch of EE or plasma physics or > statistics, whatever) which you would need to realize your error. > > > Cold fusion results are not based on exotic skills or subbranches. They > are based on 19th century science that only a lunatic or creationist would > dispute. The excess heat and tritium results are sometimes subtle, but in > other cases they are tremendous and far beyond any possible instrument > error. Sigma 100 excess heat and tritium at a million times background are > not debatable, and there is no chance they are caused by error or > contamination. > > I said that "people who do not believe what the instruments reveal are not > scientists." Everyone knows that some working scientists do not believe cold > fusion results, but they have temporarily stopped acting as scientists, just > as a policeman who goes on a rampage and beats innocent people is not acting > as a policeman. Skeptical scientists who reject cold fusion fall in two > categories: > > 1. Those who have not seen the evidence, or who refuse to look at it. > > 2. Those who look at the evidence, agree that it is indisputable and then > dismiss it anyway, such as the DoE reviewer who looked at Iwamura and wrote: > "The paper by Iwamura et al. presented at ICCF10 (Ref. 47 in DOE31) does > an exhaustive job of using a variety of modern analytical chemistry methods > to identify elements produced on the surface of coated Pd cold-fusion foils. > . . . > The analytical results, from a variety of techniques, such as mass > spectroscopy and electron spectroscopy, are very nice. It seems difficult at > first glance to dispute the results. . . . From a nuclear physics > perspective, such conclusions are not to be believed . . ." > > http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique > > This person is not acting as a scientist, and the last sentence has no > meaning. It is not a "nuclear physics perspective"; it is an imaginary > prospective, or one based on a kind of faith, a cult, or superstition. If > you cannot "dispute" replicated results -- meaning you cannot find a > technical error -- then you *must* believe them. Without this rule, no > technical argument can be settled, and no scientific progress can occur. > > - Jed > ------=_Part_22319_27199468.1171099249004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jed, you are right in everything you say.

Though by the same token there are many things that are proven and yet utterly ignored because people think that the limits they place on the universe actually mean something, why they think their model of the universe trumps irrefutable proof of how the universe really works I don't honestly know.

To quote a TV pilot that you'll never see on TV 'It doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense'.

My point is that while you are right, cold fusion is the least of what is provably real yet denied and I'd wonder if you may flat out deny some of the other stuff too. (No, I don't want to get into an argument about different types of evidence)


On 2/10/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Michel Jullian wrote:

Now try another impersonation. Imagine yourself in the place of a hypothetical CF experimenter who realizes years later that his past overunity claims were erroneous for some unobvious reason, but still believes (rightly so maybe) that there must be a way to make CF work. Would you endanger the whole field -and therefore the world- by admitting your error, or would you keep quiet?

 I would say the likelihood of this is roughly equal to the likelihood that scientists will discover that copper and gold are the same element, or that the world is only 6000 years old.

The over unity claims are not based on a researchers' opinions. They are based on replicated, peer-reviewed experimental evidence, fundamental laws of physics, and instruments and techniques that have been used in millions of experiments and industrial processes since the mid-19th century, such as calorimetry, autoradiographs and other x-ray detection, spectroscopy, tritium detection techniques and so on. These techniques have been used to confirm the results by hundreds of scientists in thousands of runs. If they could all be wrong for some reason, the experimental method itself does not work, and science would not exist.

If a cold fusion researcher were for some reason to question his own high-Sigma result, he would be wrong. To take a concrete example, researchers at Caltech were convinced that they did not observe excess heat. They thought the calibration constant in their isoperibolic calorimeter was changing instead. However, I am sure they were wrong about that, and they did actually observe excess heat. Their opinions to the contrary count for nothing. Just because the people at Caltech cannot bring themselves to believe indisputable experimental proof of cold fusion, that does not give them leave to rewrite the laws of thermodynamics or to claim that an instrument developed by J. P. Joule in the 1840s does not work!

Science is not based on opinions. It is based on what nature reveals, in replicated observations and instrument readings. The bedrock basis of the scientific method is that in the final analysis, all questions must be settled by experiment, and experiment alone. Experiment always trumps theory. When instruments show that a phenomenon occurs many times, in many different labs, with different instrument types, at a high signal-to-noise ratio, the issue is settled forever. It is beyond any rational doubt or argument. No better proof can exist in the physical universe. A scientist cannot "choose" not to believe the instrument readings, any more than a pilot can choose to pretend he is on the ground when the airplane is actually flying at 1,000 meters altitude.


Let's push it further. Imagine you lack, unknowingly, the particular technical skill (some exotic subbranch of EE or plasma physics or statistics, whatever) which you would need to realize your error.

 Cold fusion results are not based on exotic skills or subbranches. They are based on 19th century science that only a lunatic or creationist would dispute. The excess heat and tritium results are sometimes subtle, but in other cases they are tremendous and far beyond any possible instrument error. Sigma 100 excess heat and tritium at a million times background are not debatable, and there is no chance they are caused by error or contamination.

I said that "people who do not believe what the instruments reveal are not scientists." Everyone knows that some working scientists do not believe cold fusion results, but they have temporarily stopped acting as scientists, just as a policeman who goes on a rampage and beats innocent people is not acting as a policeman. Skeptical scientists who reject cold fusion fall in two categories:

1. Those who have not seen the evidence, or who refuse to look at it.

2. Those who look at the evidence, agree that it is indisputable and then dismiss it anyway, such as the DoE reviewer who looked at Iwamura and wrote:
"The paper by Iwamura et al. presented at ICCF10 (Ref. 47 in DOE31) does an exhaustive job of using a variety of modern analytical chemistry methods to identify elements produced on the surface of coated Pd cold-fusion foils. . . .
The analytical results, from a variety of techniques, such as mass spectroscopy and electron spectroscopy, are very nice. It seems difficult at first glance to dispute the results. . . .
From a nuclear physics perspective, such conclusions are not to be believed . . ."

http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm#StormsRothwellCritique

This person is not acting as a scientist, and the last sentence has no meaning. It is not a "nuclear physics perspective"; it is an imaginary prospective, or one based on a kind of faith, a cult, or superstition. If you cannot "dispute" replicated results -- meaning you cannot find a technical error -- then you must believe them. Without this rule, no technical argument can be settled, and no scientific progress can occur.

- Jed

------=_Part_22319_27199468.1171099249004-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 01:37:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A9bC53012081; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:37:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A9b9YW012062; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:37:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:37:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:33:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-reply-to: <119b01c74cf0$1ad3ab10$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72677 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pass? Fail? A -excellent? E -poor? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > On second thought the weeding would have to be done now, otherwise people will > try for ever to replicate the so-and-so experiment without success, or worse > bringing in their own sources of errors and thinking they have succeeded. > > To be able to concentrate on good experiments, the bad ones must be identified > I am afraid, including when the people who performed them are close friends, > that's where it gets hard. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:39 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > > >> OK this sounds more sensible, we have gone even beyond the stage of a >> hypothesis (I myself have witnessed such bad CF experiments). CF presented in >> this more realistic light, mistakes and all, looks more like real science. A >> lot of weeding would have to be done, but that's another story. Best is to >> concentrate on the experiments which are thought/known to work, and validate >> them. Ideally they should pass the Earthtech test, after which they could go >> and claim the Randi prize without further ado. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jed Rothwell" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:05 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) >> >> >>> Edmund Storms wrote: >>> >>>> Let me throw my two cents into this discussion. Of course some >>>> people doing cold fusion have made mistakes and reported bad data. >>> >>> Right. And this is like saying that some programmers write programs >>> with bugs, some doctors accidentally kill patients, and some people >>> drive their cars into trees by accident. People in all walks of life >>> make mistakes. >>> >>> >>>> This is not the issue. When this happen in normal science, people go >>>> back to the lab and try again. >>> >>> Right again. And programmers correct their mistakes. (Or at >>> Microsoft, they declare that the mistake is a feature, they charge >>> extra for it, and then they charge you to get rid of it.) >>> >>> >>>> In cold fusion, the error is used to discredit the whole idea. That >>>> is the issue! Cold fusion needs to treated just like any other >>>> science, mistakes and all. >>> >>> Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you do >>> not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist. >>> >>> I know perfectly well that some CF researchers are wrong, but it is >>> inconceivable that all of them are wrong. The two assertions must not >>> be confused. >>> >>> - Jed >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 01:44:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1A9i3WA014658; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:44:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1A9i0nd014629; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:44:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:44:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:41:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72678 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed...You could also let readers rank the quality of the experiments on your website. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:05:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1AA4wES025158; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:04:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1AA4uDW025142; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:04:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:04:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=B1TaPqOHgMutqTEXO20nATMn6QuIf1VZCmeIW2Rr0W+7CSSYrCvD1OHxFVTTBPog4zaT59AHxlqHDxrR83MgE4lqFNjw0rhy/bZHSnoWg//V6Uw0LJH9BzhDDvf8FheALqoMCI7Ke/IaKS40QM3ulhlQQFRxTarCilj9giEPJ48= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:04:54 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209175722.03700f90@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22427_16913175.1171101894846" References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209175722.03700f90@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72679 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_22427_16913175.1171101894846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/10/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you do > not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist. Doctors and drug companies kill people by the thousands (scratch that, millions) and only slowly are they getting any criticism. But if a natural therapy, or antioxidants are shown to have the slightest negative effect it's big news, and legislation is made to basically stop people from taking supplements or natural remedies. The same thing happens with the medias reporting on global warming as illustrated in an inconvenient truth. Fair and balanced! ------=_Part_22427_16913175.1171101894846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/10/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you do
not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist.

Doctors and drug companies kill people by the thousands (scratch that, millions) and only slowly are they getting any criticism.

But if a natural therapy, or antioxidants are shown to have the slightest negative effect it's big news, and legislation is made to basically stop people from taking supplements or natural remedies.

The same thing happens with the medias reporting on global warming as illustrated in an inconvenient truth.

Fair and balanced!
------=_Part_22427_16913175.1171101894846-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:46:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1AAkdb8009632; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:46:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1AAkdOF009623; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:46:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:46:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <11ee01c74d00$745ba3d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:44:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1AAkbPB009607 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72680 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In most cases the quality can't be judged by just reading a paper, so such ranking by the readers would be worthless IMHO. But a ranking scheme might work if it was done by the fellow CF researchers, so they wouldn't have to "tell" about erroneous experiments made by friends, they would just not rank them or give them a lower ranking. Then replicators could concentrate on the most promising experiments rather than wasting their time and money in dead alleys. How does this sound Jed? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) > > Jed...You could also let readers rank the quality of the experiments > on your website. > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 05:52:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ADpubp030230; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 05:51:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ADpr11030192; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 05:51:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 05:51:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=KNboqXsdxOvwiEGopaQVHcWEPjG6yVVZASng/bG4eyqxML2rWrUxu4mTvANl50eZJHXQ72kzl8oBfHEcfCAzr2DXugmKri2shJR921QClR+pi9ySRmb5tW45crz6OR5VpRkr+SWs49HADlyMcu42TcXQVxHQ1UlyOTC+wMV/3uU= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:51:51 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1ADppWQ030149 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72681 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: http://snipurl.com/19t0f http://www.ajc.com/cars/content/printedition/2007/02/10/carplugin0210a.html (free registration might be required) Note the incorrect reference to Steorn who had said they have never attached an electric generator to their device. Complete article for group use only: Electrics slide into market: Battery-powered autos best option for U.S., advocates say By John Christensen For the Journal-Constitution Published on: 02/10/07 When Stephen Taylor sold his radio stations in Macon and retired, he could have taken some nice trips, bought a swell new house or indulged himself in any number of ways. Instead, he paid off his house in Marietta and bought a Corbin Sparrow. The Sparrow is a cartoon car, a three-wheeled electric-motor motorcycle wrapped in a composite shell. It has a heater, windshield wipers and a radio, but it is slow, has no air conditioning and seats just one. Taylor's is jellybean orange. "That's what I drive if I want to attract attention," he says. "People say it looks like a nose. The front wheels are the nostrils." But there was no room for the wife and kids, so he bought a Selectria Force, a four-passenger Geo Metro that had been converted into an electric car. Then he bought another Force, and another. Taylor now has eight electric vehicles —- including the electric tractor he mows his 5 acres with —- and is president of the local chapter of the Electric Automobile Association. He is also an evangelist for what many believe is the inevitable future of motoring in America: the electric vehicle. At the recent Detroit Auto Show, Car & Driver picked the Chevrolet Volt concept car as one of the most significant in the show. Beneath the Volt's crisp, aggressive styling is a lithium-ion battery that is the equivalent of 12 Toyota Prius batteries and has a range of 40 miles. There is also an 85-horsepower, 1.0-liter, three-cylinder turbo engine that powers a generator that recharges the battery while the car is running. It can run on an ethanol/gasoline blend or on gasoline alone with a range up to 640 miles. The Volt is a hopeful sign among EV fanciers, and for reasons that are anything but frivolous. "Without a doubt the electric vehicle is the car of the future," says Bill Moore, publisher of EV World, an online zine devoted to electric vehicles. "If it isn't, we're all going to be in serious hurt, transportation-wise." The reasons: rising fuel prices and our dependence on foreign oil, the likelihood of limits and taxes on carbon emissions (Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has already signed such an order in California) and the limitations of alternative fuels such as ethanol. "The whole country needs to get away from depending on foreign oil," Taylor says. "Electricity is something we can create ourselves without using oil. Environmentalism is a happy benefit of it, but I'm thinking more about national security. That's why I like electric cars." The downside to EVs is that they are often slower than conventional cars and have limited range. Taylor says he prefers the slow lane, anyway, but his wife's electric Toyota RAV4, which requires no shifting and has no engine noise, "accelerates so smoothly that if you don't let up, you're speeding. It's really a cool feeling." The lithium batteries he put in one of his Selectria Forces gives him a range of 100 miles —- more than enough for in-town trips. On long trips, the family travels in one of the hybrids —- a Prius and a Camry —- his kids drive. "The really great thing," he says, "is you never have to go to a gas station. You plug it in and walk away, so you never leave home without a full charge." EVs had a fling in the 1990s when California's Air Resources Board ordered manufacturers to make electric vehicles available to improve air quality. Other states began preparing as well. But the manufacturers objected that the technology was unproven and the cars unprofitable, and when the state suspended its quotas, the manufacturers stopped making EVs. Moore estimates that there are less than 30,000 highway-capable EVs in the United States today, and another 35,000 low-speed and neighborhood electric vehicles which he calls "golf carts on steroids." Georgia Power had 550 EVs over a period of several years, the second-biggest fleet in the country behind Southern California Edison, but now has none. Nevertheless, Don Francis, senior marketing engineer for the program, says the plug-in hybrid is clearly the future. His concern is that that U.S. manufacturers, who were unprepared for the oil crisis of 1974 and the success of the Toyota Prius hybrid, may again miss the boat. "What we should be worried about," Francis says, "is that they may decide not to do the plug-in hybrid, and the Japanese do because they don't want to be left behind —- especially the next time gas spikes to $4 or $5 a gallon and stays there. "Because one thing I know about the Japanese, having worked with them, is that there's something going on behind the veil. They don't talk much, but then they pop up and say 'Done!' and give it to you." The key is a battery that is powerful, inexpensive and reliable. The Volt is viable now, but its battery alone would cost $40,000. Moore says companies big (Panasonic, Sanyo, Gold Star) and small (A123, AlterNano, Eestor) are engaged in a furious race to produce such a battery, and a group in Ireland claims it has an electric motor that puts out more energy than goes into it. The EV, then, is where science fiction and reality collide, and it's full of surprises: the Tesla Roadster and the Tango kit car bought by George Clooney (MSRP: $108,000) that appears to have been designed in a funhouse mirror. These bring what Taylor calls "the EV grin." "It's just fun to drive an electric car," he says. "Some like to race a car, but to me driving electric cars are just as thrilling as racing a car. And after Katrina, my wife called me a genius because she never had to wait in gas lines." In the market: None of the vehicles below offers highway-ready, mass-market transportation. The Volt is a concept vehicle; the Tesla is a limited production, high-dollar sports car, and the Xebra enters the market as a neighborhood vehicle. But they offer a tantalizing glimpse at what the future may hold for U.S. motorists. Tesla Roadster (MSRP: $92,000): Proof that EVs don't have to look like a cheap toaster and handle like a dump truck, the nifty Tesla was built in California with styling cues from Lotus' chief designer. It clocks from 0 to 60 in four seconds and costs about a penny a mile to operate. The limited 2007 production run is sold out, but a $50,000 deposit gets you to the front of the line for 2008. Chevrolet Volt (Price not available): It's expected to take GM five to eight years to find an inexpensive replacement for the Volt's 400-pound, $40,000 lithium-ion battery. But its appearance at the Detroit Auto Show and its stylish, muscular design suggests that at least one U.S. manufacturer may be taking EVs seriously. Xebra (MSRP: $8,995): A three-wheeled, Chinese-built oddity that comes as a four-passenger sedan or a two-passenger pickup, the Xebra is marketed by a California company called ZAP (for Zero Air Pollution). Top speed is 40 mph, and its range is about 41 miles. The electric motor is powered by a lead-acid battery pack. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 06:09:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1AE9IVd027562; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:09:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1AE9Fck027541; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:09:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:09:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=lGBHg4H3OKp3fXf1EXR2y+bbISWMbyDGlBWwuC0Mhqnciwvh+iu7ZMLizEXg0FnBW93x4q0gQjQhndvHMUIi4KOfvIp3QeaN+o8Rq/AXRQoUTPesAlv4G1RvAlrj3NjU1n+JOnnzch8GPFKVu9F4z8Sec7SBWX05RZ2dxtDhYIw= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:09:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72682 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Atlanta Journal BEV Article Status: O X-Status: The subject header should have been "Atlanta Journal BEV Article". Jones' disease is contagious. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 06:20:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1AEJee4001369; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:19:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1AEJbie001329; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:19:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:19:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c74d1e$77dba730$7b027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:19:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C74CEC.296F47A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9Ubx1D.A.kU.3RdzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72683 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Empathy ( was Re: More about.. Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C74CEC.296F47A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C74CEC.2979F600" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C74CEC.2979F600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Lurking between the thoughts posted on this subject are grains of = wisdom. Considering that the word "cold fusion" can provoke much debate. = Some view the word similar to " con-fusion" and some others " il-lusion" = while others as "de-lusion" or "pro-fusion". The debate can even be "a-musing" were it not for the seriousness of = the need for clean forms of energy. Not being a particle physicist, I study the "elements" of the words for = insight. The elements are faith and hope conjured and mixed with = jealously, vanity, lust and greed. Oh! what a witches brew. The good news is that good science will emerge because of the energy = expended in both theory and experiment versus controversy and suspicion. = To paraphase ole Carysle.. "science character is tempered in the fires = of adversity" where jealousy can succumb to greed and vanity to lust or = visa-verse, depending on the quality of the instrument used to probe the = depth.=20 Ooops! That thought can take on the sensual.... however.. the sensual is = mostly in the mind as is all true science. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C74CEC.2979F600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Lurking between the thoughts posted on this subject are grains of = wisdom.=20 Considering that the word "cold fusion" can provoke much debate. Some = view the=20 word similar to " con-fusion" and some others " il-lusion" while others = as=20 "de-lusion" or "pro-fusion".
The debate  can  even be "a-musing" were it not for = the=20 seriousness of the need for clean forms of energy.
 
Not being a particle physicist, I study the "elements" of the words = for=20 insight. The elements are faith and hope conjured and mixed with = jealously,=20 vanity, lust and greed. Oh! what a witches brew.
 
The good news is that good science will emerge because of the = energy=20 expended in both theory and experiment versus controversy and suspicion. = To=20 paraphase ole Carysle.. "science character is tempered in the fires of=20 adversity" where jealousy can succumb to greed and vanity to lust or = visa-verse,=20 depending on the quality of the instrument used to probe the depth. =
 
Ooops! That thought can take on the sensual.... however.. the = sensual is=20 mostly in the mind as is all true science.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C74CEC.2979F600-- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C74CEC.296F47A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002701c74d1e$7181d440$7b027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C74CEC.296F47A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 10:19:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1AIJLsh010621; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:19:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1AIJJUx010610; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:19:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:19:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210101921.034068f0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:19:30 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5nATcD.A.llC.nygzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72684 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bob Park does NOT denigrate cold fusion in NYT article Status: RO X-Status: Note carefully that he does not take a cheap shot at our favorite topic. Maybe he's learning the facts. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/science/10princeton.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1171131110-DReDMob3XMhqHdu1ZzP0tw Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 13:21:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ALKs0r001713; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:20:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ALKr51001696; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:20:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:20:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KAR8HcWPF6iwI+kkxi0UoT37tRMfJOEUuzLb8t7NQIr92QYA4WWh45RHI0FKbmwXhKuB46/a5Mp27PQ2Q/wvQHKKJFUr1NM252sGShhXgdsLyrdiyGyJb58BlOKwl49WaJO8NTXE7twn+inAzaJVQJj0ioFjTFi09nzKYQafVwc= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:20:51 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bob Park does NOT denigrate cold fusion in NYT article In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210101921.034068f0@mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210101921.034068f0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72685 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean Radin always said PEAR did good science. Bob will die of an OD on crow if a tree doesn't eventually fell him. Terry On 2/10/07, Steven Krivit wrote: > Note carefully that he does not take a cheap shot at our favorite topic. > Maybe he's learning the facts. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/science/10princeton.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1171131110-DReDMob3XMhqHdu1ZzP0tw > > Steve > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 14:53:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1AMr5mR032422; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:53:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1AMr38M032409; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:53:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:53:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=AgaPOoML6ihPwywiQbVh3kmKv4li96ylC0TA7asXiU9FshV58GMmxcGhgvreSffX; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <518623.1171147977505.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:52:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cb5351c9e10166bcb891f68b225a914f0e1b07b6de8ea84a0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: <_eFGrD.A.R6H.PzkzFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72686 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Little and Randi cannot evalute cold fusion Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Best is to concentrate on the experiments which are thought/known to work, and validate them. Ideally they should pass the Earthtech test . . . I disagree. The Earthtech test appears to be "Scott Little can replicate." Little is a gifted and smart person, but he is not qualified to do many of these experiments. The fact that he has not been able to replicate them only proves that he is not qualified. He should not be held as some kind of standard or metric to judge the work of professional electrochemists. Oriani, who is one of the world's top electrochemists, said that in his 50-year carreer in electrochemistry, this was the most difficult experiment he encountered. Yet he did replicate, and so did many other professionals. The fact that Little did not is not at all surprising, and should not be held against him in any sense. Still, if you are going to make Little the standard for cold fusion, why not also insist that you will not accept a new tecnique in brain surgery, cloning, or Tokamak design until he master it? > . . . after which they could go and claim the Randi prize without further ado. I discussed this with Randi. I can send you the exchange of letters. Basically, as I recall, he would not accept any cold fusion experiment, no matter how convincing it is. He wants to see something like a commercially useful device that produces palpable levels of heat before he will accept cold fusion. An experiment that requires any kind of analysis or expert knowlege is not a candidate for his prize. He readilly admitted to me that he himself is not qualified to judge calorimetric results; he has not interest in doing that; and he will not accept the judgement of any expert or set of experts in calorimetry, or for that matter tritium detection, transmutations or any other scientific subject. Perhaps originally he might have accepted the judgment of scientific experts, but I think when I began to discuss the subject, and when I told him that cold fusion has been replicated and it has produced multiple watts of heat and so on, he and his "advisors" made haste to move the goal posts. In other words, he changed to rules to make sure cold fusion is not allowed. To judge cold fusion, you should stick to traditional, conventional scientific criteria: replication, publication in mainstream, peer-reviewed journals, and so on. Cold fusion passed these tests by 1990. It is a bad idea to leave the mainstream academic world and ask people like Little or Randi to evalute it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 15:21:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ANLKgu004101; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:21:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ANLDe6004064; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:21:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:21:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ffYKUpCOhgmwAz1NZh6fujO3tq8RfjqHHfDVsN+xZglqk2J9V0PsxWqvzyReuHn1; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <26130421.1171149673292.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:21:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cb5351c9e10166bcbd2b675a8c5bb85e33ae9702e2e88ebc7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72687 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian writes: >On second thought the weeding would have to be done now, otherwise people will try for ever to replicate the so-and-so experiment without success, or worse bringing in their own sources of errors and thinking they have succeeded. Well, what is good and what is bad is a matter of opinion and scientific judgement. The system works by free exchange of information. Everyone is allowed to publish results, and everyone else is free to judge for themselves. People can write reviews of the work, the way Storms has done, but nobody hands out grades in academic research, and no one should be allowed to act as an arbitor or censor. (Least of all someone running an on-line library, such as me!) Anyway, a person who would try to replicate the so-so, marginal experiments is not qualifed to work in this field and will not contribute anything no matter what. In other words, if you have to depend on others to tell you what is a good result, you are not >To be able to concentrate on good experiments, the bad ones must be identified I am afraid . . . This is like saying that to succeed in business you should identify good investment opportunities. True, but if you are not qualified to do that -- or good at doing that -- no one can teach you the knack or give you a set of guidelines beyond the obvious textbook stuff. To participate in science, business, art or any other field that depends on the free exchange of information and competition, you must think for yourself. > . . . including when the people who performed them are close friends, that's where it gets hard. I do not see what relevance that could possibly have. All of the top electrochemists in the world such as Bockris, Fleischmann, Will and Oriani, have known one another well for decades. They are either good friends or old enemies. It is a small field. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 19:29:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1B3TIaZ031996; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:29:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1B3TGm5031978; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:29:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:29:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CE8D72.4000203@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:28:50 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people > realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range > are either unimportant, or > I agree. If we had followed the French model and built breeder reactors, we could meet the Kehoto Protocols. Out of deference to Jed, if we were to implement the Bussard fusion reactors, we could do so without the breeder reactors. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 19:34:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1B3Y12r001719; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:34:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1B3XxL2001702; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:33:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:33:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45CE8E9B.7070909@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:33:47 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Empathy (was Re: More about the skeptics' mindsets) References: <14175963.1170907254452.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208191527.035f8f00@mindspring.com> <103601c74c2c$be4d2fb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209101741.036f4b08@mindspring.com> <10f401c74c79$68f88620$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209145718.03712bc8@mindspring.com> <112c01c74c95$672b0860$3800a8c0@zothan> <45CCF99A.2000204@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209175722.03700f90@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72689 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > On 2/10/07, *Jed Rothwell* > wrote: > > Exactly. Just because some drivers sometimes run into trees, you > do not declare that no one can drive, or that cars do not exist. > > > > The same thing happens with the medias reporting on global warming as > illustrated in an inconvenient truth. > > Fair and balanced! Unfair and agenda driven. Particularly with regard to the natural treatments. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 22:25:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1B6P3Kx012588; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:25:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1B6P0DE012549; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:25:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:25:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210222242.0ba48eb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:25:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_508259046==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3cFWCC.A.4DD.7arzFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72690 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Freelance Sci Writer in DC area needed Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_508259046==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc. NEW ENERGY TIMES 369-B Third Street, Suite 556 San Rafael, California, USA 94901 www.newenergytimes.com Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 --=====================_508259046==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Steven B. Krivit
Editor, New Energy Times
Executive Director, New Energy Institute Inc.
NEW ENERGY TIMES
369-B Third Street, Suite 556
San Rafael, California, USA 94901
www.newenergytimes.com
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189


--=====================_508259046==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 04:52:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BCq1Qs020911; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 04:52:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BCnJII020003; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 04:49:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 04:49:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAIqfzkXLrQVnUGdsb2JhbAANhxCHLAEBKpFNAQEB X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,310,1167580800"; d="scan'208"; a="1055581101:sNHT19202550" Message-ID: <45CF10C5.40103@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:49:09 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> <006b01c74bbe$96805250$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208152532.036cd358@mindspring.com> <45CC18B5.7040701@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209094201.03694888@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72691 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >>> Suppose you want to recharge a dozen cars at one time, ten times per >>> hour (six minutes each) during the peak rush hour. That's 120 >> >> I have a simple answer, you plug the car in when you shut it off. I'm >> talking about a garden variety, 20 Amp plug in. > > > That's fine for short trips, but Mike Carrell is saying that on long > trips over highways beyond the range of the batteries quick to > recharge electric cars have a real problem. He is right. A recharge > station similar to a 12 page gasoline station would require a large > bank of super capacitors and also a 1 MB or 2 MB power supply -- like > the kind used in a large hospital or hotel. This would surely cost far > more than a conventional gas station. The problem is not > insurmountable but it would be expensive. > > - Jed > Well said Jed however there is a variable that has not been considered. The ultra-cap bank could be truck mounted allowing a power up station to be deployed at any truck stop or freeway rest area. This flying reserve could even be on-call, assuming your mobile phone is not also dead. Thus the station cost is the cost of the truck and its Ultra caps and the cost of the training for the driver electricians. It is even conceivable that they could move with demand: the highway to the coast in summer and the one to the snow in winter. I have a battery swap design with wheels on the battery pack and a ramp and winch in the cars belly. As a consequence I have been considering been considering the other part of the problem: road service for dead cars. In that case you need a medium truck with communications a dozen replacement packs and a semi-robotic crane with a 2 meter reach. The kind that drops a pallet of tiles or bricks on the lawn when your building. The other problem with battery swap is locking the batteries down solidly so they don't become a projectile. This has been one of the major reasons some governments object to retrofits and why battery swap for EV's has not been seen except in fleet vans and milk trucks. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 05:25:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BDPnrb019617; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:25:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BDN5q1014673; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:23:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:23:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAMWnzkXLrQVnUGdsb2JhbAANhxCHLAEBKpFVAQEB X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,310,1167577200"; d="scan'208"; a="128349809:sNHT7435890" Message-ID: <45CF18A4.101@iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:22:44 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72692 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > I think electric cars would be easier to implement than people > realize, and most of the concerns about limited operating range > are either unimportant, or they could easily be fixed. If the > world had run short of oil back in 1960, you can be sure we would > have implemented electric cars with battery exchanges by 1975, and > everyone would take it for granted. > > - Jed > > > Anyone consider electric planes? > > Lifters? > > Harry We are still a long way away from electric air craft with two exceptions. Solar electric drones or airships and hybrid aircraft. If EESTOR or one of the others can deliver a bettery then it is possible to use it in either. Particularly if some smart chap with money [so I don't qualify] can figure out how to craft a bettery that is also a high strength 'structural girder'. Hint hint. Aircraft use most of their power taking off and landing. At cruising their powerplants are running at below optimal power. Energy banks would help by allowing the main engines to be built for the cruising load. This also allows fuel cell planes. Air craft would be more fuel efficient if airports included taxi way power boosters: that's a 'power truck' hooked up to the aircraft with a break a way link that powers the plane right up to the point where the pilot hits the throttle. Such vehicles are notoriously slow and fiddly. Manual connections and a hand towed trolley is still standard. Solar on the top of the fuselage and wings would also help power the air-conditioning while the plane is waiting on the ground in the cue for the runway. We will probably see both faster power trucks and solar soon. They are the two available innovations to cut aircraft fuel costs. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 07:01:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BF1WEN005814; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:01:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BEwlnG004941; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 06:58:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 06:58:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Z40Eg3dSa6msx00lHtLCJw7WB+CYbLgNEHiGLN/0FfK/ldewnHt1Aoy1IvowxZlAyWp5bd7b9nPVuShT7ZSlWBiozYAiYPNqITtyGhcvhujgsJgf2MGPmETubmreHebqhVUcrabQ6o00MUF89+ZqrrPwY0GCxhRuYSTDcrs5JP0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:58:46 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72693 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Havard's Cool Trick Status: O X-Status: http://www.photonics.com/content/news/2007/February/8/86331.aspx Light Changed to Matter, Then Stopped and Moved CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Feb. 8, 2007 -- By converting light into matter and then back again, physicists have for the first time stopped a light pulse and then restarted it a small distance away. This "quantum mechanical magic trick" provides unprecedented control over light and could have applications in fiber-optic communication and quantum information processing. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 08:44:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BGiV3u009905; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:44:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BGfnnf008778; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:41:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:41:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=2xe7s8OTukPClDZyItnULiT9wWGaYuoFv8n4NLwRvC33aUmtlaOHjNXm485oNr3C4HDxWwo0cixohsRVbRBppabMMl7lhPDZsKWO1llCm7+ihPnPFgfIF9m/GoxT54HqDJsPuPMr+996o3cq/9UOqOtb5BlXbMpfOATwBUOqeSo= ; X-YMail-OSG: iHefICUVM1nEW35erw8lgHAj7rl0gy5hlDP01ZwZe7EeU0l1DNMrKdFON0LmPHgPvc1MFPpqgRQr.nqf747XJBL76Lw377.STturJ1nOFPmZJanLFseyZD3Mz567Y6YnVDQmfI.L0B_3yQ-- Message-ID: <45CF4749.5020807@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:41:45 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210222242.0ba48eb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210222242.0ba48eb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5DEBMC.A.2IC.Md0zFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72694 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: San Rafael Status: O X-Status: Steve, Noticed that the New Energy business address now is given as Third Street, San Rafael, which is only a few miles away from where I live. Are you moving up to Paradise - from LaLa-Land ?? Jones Actually "Paradise" is two exits on 101 before San Rafael, but close. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 10:35:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BIZI9a025985; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:35:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BIWaO7022291; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:32:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=eHgiJqRCpaGuw0rqTwS0DxUHo4/RjPZHCDejWDSfoe1qDlDnO5AREwMFCA0Okw0NJ9Q7qfalkvr0GOULPuzVUAn6dzBMqrAN2lhvahDYm0PrkoVGE3CHxpFMebliKzl1AEIBD6GlbWDAjZZimG8t5IaTmRAvFY7/q8uRdvzD5gA= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:32:36 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72695 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Lake Erie UFO Vid Status: O X-Status: http://ufonews.tv/2007/02/06/lake-erie-fantastic-ufo-video/ You have to scroll down a bit. The footage is good but it's the narrative which makes the show. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 12:29:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BKSqf5032732; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:28:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BKSofp032710; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:28:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:28:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Ed+7A8hZ3Q/N4M7b4N7rdv3BAgB0fp84ivfs4j/iR5gMHyX+woSCSby7Tcf4A1xZL+bh8sekZagc2ITAxiEfW0sFJS47L5OdzksgXupMT6Nc3LnjAWlQGKCgVJT+iHVzCRa7k6kSD6DZowipQdfKPMV0AIpuckaOap3+aRDNl1w= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:28:48 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <6pwvb.A.9-H.By3zFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72696 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Status: RO X-Status: http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream these photos together to see the motion of the devices. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 12:51:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BKpQLW008826; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:51:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BKpPqR008803; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:51:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:51:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:49:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <4WScKD.A.eJC.MH4zFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72697 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: They already have been: http://www.islandfx.tv/STEORN/OnShelves.html Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream these photos together to see the motion of the devices. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 12:53:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BKrhdt010133; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:53:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BKrgKH010117; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:53:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:53:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:51:31 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72698 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Woops, wrong one. Try this: http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream these photos together to see the motion of the devices. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 13:25:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BLPPIQ025704; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:25:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BLPKVO025662; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:25:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:24:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <32UbIC.A.6QG._m4zFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72699 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my quicktime player. Any others? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnoson www.OrionWorks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 13:28:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BLSYHo027237; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:28:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BLSXUF027221; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:28:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:28:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:26:25 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72700 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Try VLC . it's free :-) . -----Original Message----- From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:25 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my quicktime player. Any others? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnoson www.OrionWorks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 13:51:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BLpRed005377; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:51:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BLpQW8005350; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:51:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:51:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:51:14 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72701 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is very odd. I tried accessing MPG video at the relativity.ca web site again, and now appears to be UserID & Password protected. What's going on? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWokrs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:26 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > Try VLC . it's free :-) . > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:25 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my > quicktime player. > Any others? > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnoson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: > > > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ > > > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream > > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. > > > > Terry > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 13:58:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BLwORO007378; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:58:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BLwN4s007356; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:58:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:58:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:56:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72702 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There's a lot of discussion on the Steorn forum about how this really should not be made public. Maybe they killed it :-( . -----Original Message----- From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:51 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos This is very odd. I tried accessing MPG video at the relativity.ca web site again, and now appears to be UserID & Password protected. What's going on? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWokrs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:26 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > Try VLC . it's free :-) . > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:25 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my > quicktime player. > Any others? > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnoson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: > > > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ > > > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream > > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. > > > > Terry > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 14:35:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BMZTh3005778; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:35:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BMZRsw005761; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:35:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YqOHhKXs2tIBtHPTvsMj6SLSEgl3t387PxYrAXKFnTL+cqCZ7+Fb+gth6aCU+GvRSR5ElxYDvoXK+zVHppFFKW0/yg+8s6Bpx5MEUkbf/C5fLhlWLw8l/9gHLLep4VvH5P6udXF+34jZqJ6Qe6Q7vOBZWmKHzH98IoRbojX31yc= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:35:26 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72703 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, the Flickr photos are still there; so, how 'bout my original request? :-) Terry On 2/11/07, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > There's a lot of discussion on the Steorn forum about how this really should > not be made public. Maybe they killed it :-( . > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:51 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > This is very odd. > > I tried accessing MPG video at the relativity.ca web site again, and now > appears to be UserID & Password protected. > > What's going on? > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWokrs.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:26 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > Try VLC . it's free :-) . > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:25 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my > > quicktime player. > > Any others? > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnoson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] > > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM > > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > > > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: > > > > > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM > > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ > > > > > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could stream > > > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 15:52:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1BNqrrD007464; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:52:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1BNqpPK007446; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:52:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:52:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=NjHH8DM27GZDbtZ2lsD7fBTerTC0c2U/focT4mqToT5wvZvlkp4H3ijRlaClixXhej/Q6rmtq203nZllA41IZInDXKUZyZm+NRkXHzs3k2jU4xWt3LFvriuRsgRYp7l5fah3VAS8OsoZkJT6D+K/C7m5hbqGCzffbeHhV3iC0K8= Message-ID: <357653710702111552i7afab995ya4c90c842dd46ea0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:52:45 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_43216_6497250.1171237965576" X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4f1fb179ef101aa9 Resent-Message-ID: <6wp-Z.A.I0B.Tx6zFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72704 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RAM - radar absorbing materials Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_43216_6497250.1171237965576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi I am trying to concieve how RAM works. As far as I can see it has to be some molecule having its vibrational spectrum in the radar domain. This can explain why the radar waves are being absorbed. But how is the energy depleted and taken away from the material? Without energy going away the excited states will very soon be filled. Can someone imagine a way to do this? David ------=_Part_43216_6497250.1171237965576 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi

I am trying to concieve how RAM works. As far as I can see it has to be some molecule having its vibrational spectrum in the radar domain. This can explain why the radar waves are being absorbed. But how is the energy depleted and taken away from the material? Without energy going away the excited states will very soon be filled. Can someone imagine a way to do this?

David
------=_Part_43216_6497250.1171237965576-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 18:00:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C20NAK017341; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:00:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C20Mif017329; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:00:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:00:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RAM - radar absorbing materials Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:00:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <357653710702111552i7afab995ya4c90c842dd46ea0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710702111552i7afab995ya4c90c842dd46ea0@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:00:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1C20JgJ017314 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72705 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to David Jonsson's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:52:45 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Hi > >I am trying to concieve how RAM works. As far as I can see it has to be some >molecule having its vibrational spectrum in the radar domain. This can >explain why the radar waves are being absorbed. But how is the energy >depleted and taken away from the material? Without energy going away the >excited states will very soon be filled. Can someone imagine a way to do >this? > >David Consider that in a microwave oven, radio waves are converted into heat. This results in reemission of the energy, but at a different frequency than the absorbed energy. Radar is based upon energy reflected at the *same* frequency it was transmitted at, but Doppler shifted. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 18:18:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C2IQ32028016; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:18:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C2IFTN027977; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:18:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:18:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:18:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <73jvs29t6vqhmb6t5ceo9lluhqlvuc52re@4ax.com> References: <45CF18A4.101@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <45CF18A4.101@iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:18:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1C2IC7v027953 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72706 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:22:44 +1100: Hi, [snip] >Harry Veeder wrote: >We are still a long way away from electric air craft with two >exceptions. Solar electric drones or airships and hybrid aircraft. If There is no need for electric planes at all. Chemists can easily make jet fuel from Biological energy sources, though perhaps not very efficiently. Furthermore, using betteries in cars would free up lots of existing hydrocarbons for use in jet fuel. Consequently jets will probably be the last remaining users of hydrocarbons. At least until we conquer anti-gravity, at which point they will also be replaced, because AG craft can be powered from an electrical source, which in turn can be derived from CF. Of course something like a NERVA/jet engine cross, where the power is supplied by CF might also eliminate hydrocarbon consumption in jets. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 18:26:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C2PjNO006644; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:25:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C2PgDA006595; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:25:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:25:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:22:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1C2PXZ5006509 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72707 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > Try VLC . it's free :-) . > I went to the VLC site to see if there was version for Mac OS 8.6 and found this terse statement: "Note: There is not, and there will never be, a version for Mac OS 9." I guess that also means OS versions below 9 ... lol. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 18:32:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C2WCXf014238; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:32:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C2WA5P014218; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:32:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:29:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-reply-to: <73jvs29t6vqhmb6t5ceo9lluhqlvuc52re@4ax.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72708 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:22:44 +1100: > Hi, > [snip] >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> We are still a long way away from electric air craft with two >> exceptions. Solar electric drones or airships and hybrid aircraft. If > > There is no need for electric planes at all. Chemists can easily make jet fuel > from Biological energy sources, though perhaps not very efficiently. > Furthermore, using betteries in cars would free up lots of existing > hydrocarbons > for use in jet fuel. Consequently jets will probably be the last remaining > users > of hydrocarbons. At least until we conquer anti-gravity, at which point they > will also be replaced, because AG craft can be powered from an electrical > source, which in turn can be derived from CF. Of course something like a > NERVA/jet engine cross, where the power is supplied by CF might also eliminate > hydrocarbon consumption in jets. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk There something called magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion for submarines. Is that similiar to this NERVA/jet engine? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 18:49:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C2nTuv025764; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:49:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C2nRpV025746; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:49:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:49:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:49:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <73jvs29t6vqhmb6t5ceo9lluhqlvuc52re@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:49:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1C2nO4b025721 Resent-Message-ID: <9m-25C.A.OSG.2W9zFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72709 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:29:09 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> of hydrocarbons. At least until we conquer anti-gravity, at which point they >> will also be replaced, because AG craft can be powered from an electrical >> source, which in turn can be derived from CF. Of course something like a >> NERVA/jet engine cross, where the power is supplied by CF might also eliminate >> hydrocarbon consumption in jets. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk > >There something called magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion for submarines. >Is that similiar to this NERVA/jet engine? Not that I am aware of. Magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion makes use of crossed electric and magnetic fields to propel semi-conductive sea water through a tube. AFAIK it is very energy intensive, and not very powerful or efficient. NERVA is a nuclear powered rocket concept, where a nuclear reactor is used to provide heat to heat up hydrogen (I think). Ed, please verify/clarify as required. A cross between NERVA and a jet engine would heat air instead of Hydrogen. CF would replace the fission power source. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 18:52:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C2psWx026767; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:51:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C2pqB7026744; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:51:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:51:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: A New Candle Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:51:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0hlvs25her83rhes39nt0j39390nc0cbl6@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:51:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1C2po4C026722 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72710 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:47:23 -0500: Hi, [snip] >http://www.metacafe.com/watch/400937/candle_power_who_needs_batteries/ Just out of curiosity, has any list member tried this yet? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 22:40:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1C6eER6028867; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:40:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1C6eCIf028854; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:40:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:40:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VNKaA/CgqBJ9iEhf9SV9LIVkjk8NqgnKxDmIEeRN6mbeIWJxIAyNaRpdwAR+U6vRvVuLiyfDmFfTSMz9iS9+nh23+pmjVB+1Eg/eefspbhhC4VlceyfKVOYgbV2LOiNebOGgHpbKoVkE/YzZuwf3ShAItXD1YridBbyKFwovR4c= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:40:10 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RAM - radar absorbing materials In-Reply-To: <357653710702111552i7afab995ya4c90c842dd46ea0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <357653710702111552i7afab995ya4c90c842dd46ea0@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5ZllV.A.yCH.LvA0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72711 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First off, not all in a radar defeating scheme is absorbed, a lot is just scattered in various directions. secondly, most radar systems are, at a difference, not much energy. it likely drops back down to the unexcited stated, and emits a wave in some random direction. Might i suggest studying how ozone "reflects" uv radiation? On 2/11/07, David Jonsson wrote: > Hi > > I am trying to concieve how RAM works. As far as I can see it has to be some > molecule having its vibrational spectrum in the radar domain. This can > explain why the radar waves are being absorbed. But how is the energy > depleted and taken away from the material? Without energy going away the > excited states will very soon be filled. Can someone imagine a way to do > this? > > David > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 10:47:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1CIkuda008514; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:46:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1CIkrVc008480; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:46:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:46:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=2QYSrcUHen/2yFLh8Q+8LmzHPoYUWEbqqaBR/YRc1fprfI/I7Nzjk14bEdZoizmVI25sVmG6j5yFBbBJ5+ctp5lVO0e4/LQ43sfnUt60IRTvTZUF428/5PMIrfgyTTIhuPP94wLhA0RphudEEF1wM6sOsF8tbhmztzFroTKtv7w=; X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.3 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.7 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:46:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <217165.5113.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1CIkpi7008453 Resent-Message-ID: <5xeTI.A.TEC.cYL0FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72712 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Emergence Status: O X-Status: "The greater the doubt, the greater the awakening; the smaller the doubt, the smaller the awakening. No doubt, no awakening." ---Zen master Po Shan, in regards the "doubt sensation" Had a "visit" from Alan Watts yesterday ... as happens on many Sundays - especially to receptive and contemplative hikers on the trails around his beloved and cloud-hidden shrine - Mt Tam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts Without getting too far off-topic and opening another can-of "holier-than-thou" worms from various true-believers, there is this underlying connection (albeit strained to some observers) between spirituality, as experienced from a scientific perspective, and the science behind and the quest for finding "free energy", which BTW is often called a "holy grail". And no, Terry, this goes way beyond Watts and Amperes... as the clever EE is sure to quip. The premise of this interconnection is in found in quantum mechanics - and specifically in the alteration of "probability" of QM interactions, and of so-called 'randomness' changing into a 'stochastic process.' It has been the contention of many of the more insightful observers of LERN (cold fusion) that the phenomena is basically an enhanced QM effect, a type of quasi-BEC in which the "time" constraint, which would normally make the fusion reaction of deuterium of extremely low probability - has been warped somehow by the parameters of "nano-confinement" (loaded metal matrix simulating a BEC) leading to both to an increased rate of reaction - but equally importantly leading to a profound difference in how the energy is transduced. IOW - by speeding up the rate of reaction from QM time-rarity, symmetry is maintained by a correspondingly slow "dump" of excess energy, in which time is stretched out enormously so that it occurs gradually in 'phonons' - instead of suddenly in photons. As an alternative analogy of "self-ordering" in LENR, there is also the connection to the BEC on which much has been written. Here is more on the strained sci-phi connection (science & philosopy this time), with 'strain' becoming an operative word - on many levels. Alan Watts died a decade before science (in the personage of James Glick) began to get a handle on what he was trying to convey. But there is one word which epitomizes everything. And this analogy of science-based spirituality emerging from the clouds of mysticism is a perspective best seen from "high places" aka the literal perspective of El Shaddai - in that that the vast surrounding lowlands always seem to have a derivative higher "focus" (or else by definition they are not low). *Emergence* - is the word. This one idea could be the most important generalized concept in all of human understanding! And this is especially true for any scientist trying to grasp his inner "need" for spirituality in a society where bigotry is so extraordinarily entrenched (in the anti-science mentality of organized religion). And perhaps equally true for the fringe-scientist trying to grasp what experimental parameters can accelerate QM probability to such a degree - but in a world ruled by another kind of bigoted mainstream establishment. The fact that so few observers are able to grasp all of the implications and nuances of this term "emergence" is only indicative of how little genuine understanding is 'out-there' even among educated observers. Before the advent of "Chaos science" popularized in James Glick's seminal book "Chaos" (1987) - that is - this concept of *emergence* was just another arcane philosophical term. of passing relevance. Nowadays in all aspects of science: including biology, computer science, science of philosophy, systems theory, even political science and religion --"emergence"-- has become the key way of understanding the development of organized systems. But underlying it all is a "moral" dilemma - in htat simple "addition" or the additive processes, will find a way to self-organize... and yet this duality is the epitome of the moral conflict within the hedonism of "more is better" set against the elegance of Ockham's razor simplicity. Built-in strain. As many observers now appreciate -- in honing down this conflicting duality: "more" is NEVER better unless it portends "emergence," and yet, in the context of complex systems, "more" almost always portends "emergence" given adequate time. "Time" (or lack thereof) now becomes the great deceiver - the nexus of evil if we wish to cast it into the notion of bifurcation of moral forces. This is not a blanket invitation to "super-size-it" at McDonald's however.... And speaking of religion, until one understands how the concept of divinity is itself an emergent property of the "hunting pack" imperative in baseline human mentality, and the biochemical chemicals which give us that mental imperative, then it is impossible to move beyond the glib notion that "faith" is always the primary necessity of belief. Emergence refers to "the arising of novel and coherent structures, patterns and properties during the process of self-organization in complex systems." In Jeffrey Goldstein's rewording of Glick - the common characteristics are: (1) Radical Novelty - the new feature was not previously observed in the underlying systems (2) Underlying "dynamical processes" which self-organize (3) coherence or correlation - meaning that the "integrated whole" will emerge from similar systems under widely divergent circumstances (monotheism in Judaism, Islam and Christianity) (4) The property of "wholeness" being simplicity deriving out of complexuity (5) Goldstein throws in the idea of "downward causation" which has interesting nuances. To close out this "thinking aloud" soliloquy in a rather profoundly complicated way- consider the HMC - which is perhaps a correlate to Grimer's hierarchic aether model: "Hierarchic model of consciousness: from molecular Bose condensation to synaptic reorganization" by Alex Kaivarainen http://www.emergentmind.org/kaivarainenI2.htm ...or maybe that hierarchic 'climb' is best delayed till the next hike up Mt. Tam and a flash of Watts from on high, so to speak. Jones BTW - in case the 'strained connection' to LENR was not well-made above (it wasn't) and to link it to the Kaivarainen paper - suffice it to say that 'cold fusion' may well involve a hierarchic model of "small scale reordering" deriving from molecular Bose quasi-condensation (deuterium in a matrix) to the nuclear reorganization of 2D--> He. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 14:41:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1CMfidd017107; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:41:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1CMfg6w017092; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:41:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:41:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c74ef6$ef179550$3c027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:41:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72713 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: OT:Emergence Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Jones, A soliloquy indeed. One must experience a " Jones" moment on occasion in order to correctly = position one's thinking cap while cogitating one's meditating. ( = I miss Grimer's posts on Vortex) You can cover more subject matter in a paragragh than my ole Chemistry = professor could with chalk in one hand and eraser in the other.( He had = a blackboard some 30 feet across.) Time... hmmm !! You dare to introduce time. A simple clock and a = yardstick demonstrate what we describe as physical reality. The clock = and the yardstick can be used to plot four dimensions. Beyond those = four dimensions lies conjecture, imagination, beliefs literally and = liberly sprinkled with faith to which we have no way of measuring with = the physical tools we have been given. This does not mean they cannot be calculated in the mind provided you = use abstract methods. Even in finance we must now rely on abstract = differentials ( derivatives) simply because the complexity of the = underlying value of what is considered " worth".=20 Faith like worth can be assigned an abstract value and used in = determining " weight". Poets use this system of measurement and = interchange the weight to words. Mathematicians use symbols for = negatives and abstract values just as Einstein used the " C" for a " = fudge factor" (which saved his hide in the end). The Spanish language, a "romance" language with a heavy dab of " Moor" = is an example of interchanging an actual word for an abstraction.... = Querencia is such.. and may be loosely traanslated as Camelot although = essence suffers in translation and Camelot loses the depth of the = feeling of the word. The word faith transcends any word in expressive depth in the English = language.. you said it in you post in another fashion and you are to be = commended for the depth of your true understanding of the word. One must = climb to the heights of a majestic mountain to fathom your descriptive = analogy. Continue with your discourse, it stimulates. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

Howdy Jones,
 
A soliloquy indeed.
One must experience a " Jones" moment on occasion in order to = correctly=20 position one's thinking cap while cogitating one's = meditating.<grin> =20 ( I miss Grimer's posts on Vortex)
 You can cover more subject matter in a paragragh than my ole=20 Chemistry professor could with chalk in one hand and eraser in the = other.(=20 He had a blackboard some 30 feet across.)
 
Time... hmmm !! You dare to introduce time. A simple clock and a=20 yardstick demonstrate what we describe as physical reality. The = clock and=20 the yardstick can be used to plot  four dimensions. Beyond = those four=20 dimensions lies conjecture, imagination, beliefs  literally and = liberly=20 sprinkled with faith to which we have no way of measuring with the = physical=20 tools we have been given.
 
This does not mean they cannot be calculated in the mind = provided you=20 use abstract methods. Even in finance we must now rely on abstract = differentials=20 ( derivatives) simply because the complexity of the underlying value of = what is=20 considered " worth".
Faith like worth can be assigned an abstract value and used in = determining " weight". Poets use this system of measurement and=20 interchange the weight to words. Mathematicians use = symbols for=20 negatives and abstract values just as Einstein used the " C" for a = " fudge=20 factor" (which saved his hide in the end).
 
The Spanish language, a "romance" language with a heavy dab of " = Moor" is=20 an example of interchanging an actual word for an abstraction.... = Querencia is=20 such..  and may be loosely traanslated as Camelot although essence = suffers=20 in translation and Camelot loses the depth of the feeling of the = word.
 
The word faith transcends any word in expressive depth in = the English=20 language.. you said it in you post in another fashion and you are to be=20 commended for the depth of your true understanding of the word. One = must=20 climb to the heights of a majestic mountain to fathom your descriptive=20 analogy.
 
Continue with your discourse, it stimulates.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c74ef6$ee742960$3c027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C74EC4.A3F09CC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 15:09:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1CN9a0a029388; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:09:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1CN9YXP029363; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:09:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:09:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=SLAdkrx2SznOcBO+6iVtRAeWz5OmZcgPOxo4UFbnuEqSvg3UW6VByoIzc9BPAYGUh8wrzlQQ4ZkMZUao76csF2UNFUUKUCOD/AGIaCv7/eRkUvnqFWU4ZMdH0B49TgzTJA5L1igWNkAMXIY2PdsTEJ+DeLNAWlVa/klhJgIo+qA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:09:31 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <8eAXBD.A.mKH.tOP0FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72714 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Phoenix Lights 2007 - Masking the Truth? Status: O X-Status: More flares? But what about those other lights? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGoHuipecYE Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 15:18:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1CNI8Rl032423; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:18:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1CNI7Ra032407; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:18:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:18:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jkWcELETlbDNTD9b1iTTG4FQ0M6DvthY4gtMQLpwpIOptZbCOTifEuaIxn0AjROXspfywhjOiCqywwHlzDkmX/yxI9KATIfiLZo3Tdszwph+Ry21B/NDCux3T6WorgIjiVq0OyyIrC+Nvdlpfo0euws0bJO5vwzrnhnOXO1k0dI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:18:07 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Emergence In-Reply-To: <217165.5113.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <217165.5113.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72715 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/12/07, Jones Beene wrote: > And no, Terry, this goes way beyond Watts and Amperes... as the clever EE is sure to quip. The premise of this interconnection is in found in quantum mechanics - and specifically in the alteration of "probability" of QM interactions, and of so-called 'randomness' changing into a 'stochastic process.' Interesting and timely post considering: http://www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.html?main=news_single.html?id%3D6385 http://snipurl.com/19xi5 First quantum computing system running commercial applications live to be unveiled KurzweilAI.net, Feb. 8, 2007 D-Wave Systems, Inc. plans to demonstrate a technological first on Feb. 13: an end-to-end quantum computing system powered by a 16-qubit quantum processor, running two commercial applications, live. D-Wave claims it is the world's first and only provider of quantum computing systems designed to run commercial applications. The event will be hosted in Silicon Valley and Vancouver, B.C. I hope the "commercial applications" do not include any MSFT junk. :-) Terry PS Surely you have read "The Gods of Eden" by Bramley? It's the Brotherhood which prevents human emergence. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 18:32:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1D2WRhh000389; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:32:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1D2WOPK000375; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:32:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:32:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005201c74f17$2ec89d50$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <45CF18A4.101@iinet.net.au> <73jvs29t6vqhmb6t5ceo9lluhqlvuc52re@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:21:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72716 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Reality check: The existing "electric plane" designs barely keep themselves aloft and have a niche as orbiting reflectors but not as cargo carriers. With chemistry one can start with most anything and get anything else, within reason, but not at reasonable cost. Fir high performance aircraft, there is no real substitute for jet fuel: if other sources are found for ground transportation, jet fuel will be saved for aircraft. As for AG, where is the theory that says that does not require substantial power ? CF is a very long way from producing useful net power. Mike Carrell ----------------------------------- > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:22:44 +1100: > Hi, > [snip] >>Harry Veeder wrote: >>We are still a long way away from electric air craft with two >>exceptions. Solar electric drones or airships and hybrid aircraft. If > > There is no need for electric planes at all. Chemists can easily make jet > fuel > from Biological energy sources, though perhaps not very efficiently. > Furthermore, using betteries in cars would free up lots of existing > hydrocarbons > for use in jet fuel. Consequently jets will probably be the last remaining > users > of hydrocarbons. At least until we conquer anti-gravity, at which point > they > will also be replaced, because AG craft can be powered from an electrical > source, which in turn can be derived from CF. Of course something like a > NERVA/jet engine cross, where the power is supplied by CF might also > eliminate > hydrocarbon consumption in jets. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 18:46:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1D2jb5k008192; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:46:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1D2WWpR000410; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:32:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:32:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005301c74f17$2ed93f20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:27:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <95yKSC.A.yF.4MS0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72717 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? > There something called magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion for submarines. > Is that similiar to this NERVA/jet engine? > > Harry -------------------- You mean the 'worm' in The Hunt for Red October? That was a hypothetical MHD drive for submarines. To my knowledge, no workable such system exists. It relies on very powerful electric and magnetic fields intercating on conductive sea water. You expel mass of water like a ramjet, the aircraft analog. Burns fuel like crazy, except for ion thrusters which have small thrust but can reach very high speeds. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 18:54:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1D2sOFj009637; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:54:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1D2sM9a009619; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:54:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: "Vortex" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:53:55 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72718 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Piezoelectric electrical power question Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Can any one describe how much electrical power can be extracted from compressing or bending piezoelectric crystals? Is there a primer somewhere that does a decent job of describing the physics involved? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson svj@OrionWorks.com, orionworks@charter.net www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 19:36:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1D3Zrd7025791; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:35:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1D3ZpUB025765; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:35:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:35:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:35:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0pb2t2t1ucv69rd050rc2k4tvg73riqjmu@4ax.com> References: <45CF18A4.101@iinet.net.au> <73jvs29t6vqhmb6t5ceo9lluhqlvuc52re@4ax.com> <005201c74f17$2ec89d50$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005201c74f17$2ec89d50$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:35:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1D3ZnRl025746 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72719 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:21:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Reality check: The existing "electric plane" designs barely keep themselves >aloft and have a niche as orbiting reflectors but not as cargo carriers. Agreed. >With chemistry one can start with most anything and get anything else, >within reason, but not at reasonable cost. Agreed, however when a goal is presented, and the research funds made available, adequate catalysts can often be found that reduce the price. The recent emphasis on nano-technology is likely to increase the rate at which new and better catalysts are discovered. >Fir high performance aircraft, >there is no real substitute for jet fuel: if other sources are found for >ground transportation, jet fuel will be saved for aircraft. Don't forget the recent innovations in producing alkanes from biological sources. >As for AG, where >is the theory that says that does not require substantial power ? In practice, I would expect it to, though as food for thought, consider that gas filled balloons and kitchen tables expend no energy in keeping things aloft. IOW theoretically no energy expenditure is required as long as the altitude remains constant, so perhaps one day a means will be found to achieve AG that is highly efficient. >CF is a >very long way from producing useful net power. Agreed, however I mention it as a goal to strive for, not as a currently implementable solution. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 19:53:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1D3rCZL001966; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:53:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1D3rBw3001954; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:53:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:53:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:53:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3ic2t29oi0ooklcpca6g4ie28pbtrfmtk4@4ax.com> References: <005301c74f17$2ed93f20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005301c74f17$2ed93f20$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:53:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1D3r8JM001911 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72720 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:27:30 -0500: Hi, [snip] >You mean the 'worm' in The Hunt for Red October? That was a hypothetical MHD >drive for submarines. To my knowledge, no workable such system exists. It See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1 (not a sub however, and not very good). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 23:28:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1D7Rw9o020945; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:27:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1D7RtQ7020930; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:27:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:27:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:24:55 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72721 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:29:09 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >>> of hydrocarbons. At least until we conquer anti-gravity, at which point they >>> will also be replaced, because AG craft can be powered from an electrical >>> source, which in turn can be derived from CF. Of course something like a >>> NERVA/jet engine cross, where the power is supplied by CF might also >>> eliminate >>> hydrocarbon consumption in jets. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> There something called magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion for submarines. >> Is that similiar to this NERVA/jet engine? > > Not that I am aware of. Magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion makes use of crossed > electric and magnetic fields to propel semi-conductive sea water through a > tube. > AFAIK it is very energy intensive, and not very powerful or efficient. > NERVA is a nuclear powered rocket concept, where a nuclear reactor is used to > provide heat to heat up hydrogen (I think). Ed, please verify/clarify as > required. A cross between NERVA and a jet engine would heat air instead of > Hydrogen. CF would replace the fission power source. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > So it would run on hot air. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 03:00:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DAxo8V015050; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:59:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DAxlh6015028; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:59:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:59:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mzxFCZDp5RBHYd3SU28XE74v4UXo4XEAMk5OKX4rSApBJ855UjcTy6ZhVjwxUJ1P; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072213105938145@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:59:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404029b964cb17946880f64c907abfa7ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72722 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII $25 million climate prize offered by Branson Scientists must 'put their minds to it today,' he says of removing emissions http://www.virginearth.com/ To encourage a viable technology which will result in the net removal of anthropogenic, atmospheric greenhouse gases each year for at least ten years without countervailing harmful effects. "Today, Sir Richard Branson and Al Gore announced the setting up of a new Global science and technology prize – The Virgin Earth Challenge – in the belief that history has shown that prizes of this nature encourage technological advancements for the good of mankind. The Virgin Earth Challenge will award $25 million to the individual or group who are able to demonstrate a commercially viable design which will result in the net removal of anthropogenic, atmospheric greenhouse gases each year for at least ten years without countervailing harmful effects. This removal must have long term effects and contribute materially to the stability of the Earth’s climate. Sir Richard also announced that he would be joined in the adjudication of the Prize by a panel of five judges - all world authorities in their respective fields: Al Gore, Sir Crispin Tickell, Tim Flannery, Jim Hansen and James Lovelock. The panel of judges will be assisted in their deliberations by The Climate Group and Special Advisor to The Virgin Earth Prize Judges, Steve Howard (see Editors notes for biographies). The timing of the announcement of the Virgin Earth Challenge was particularly apt given the recent findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Changes, which last week announced that temperatures on earth could increase by as much as 6.4C by the end of this Century. The report, the most comprehensive to date from a UN Agency detailed the catastrophe results which even seemingly small temperature raises could have on our planet: at + 2.4C coral reefs around the world would become extinct; + 3.4C would result in the rain forests becoming deserts; an increase of + 4.4C would result in the ice caps melting and severe heat waves across the globe displacing millions; the IPCC further predicted that sea levels could rise by 5 metres if temperatures reached + 5.4C which would result in ten of millions of climate refugees. For the first time ever a 6.4C raise was mentioned within UN predictions. If this were to occur it would result in most of life on our planet being exterminated. Sir Richard Branson commented: “We all now know that something radical has got to be done to turn back the tide of global warming. By launching the $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge, the largest ever science and technology prize to be offered in history, we want to encourage scientists and individuals from around the world to come up with a way of removing lethal carbon dioxide from the earth’s atmosphere. By competing for this prize they will follow in the footsteps of many of history’s greatest inventors and innovators. But in this case potentially save the planet. It is our hope and belief that the winner of The Virgin Earth Challenge will help to reverse the collision course our beautiful world is currently on. They will not only make history but preserve history for many, many generations to come. However, it is important to remember that there is a real possibility that no one will win this prize. Governments, and their people, must continue to use every effort to radically reduce CO2 emissions. “ The Virgin Earth Challenge will initially be open for five years; the judges will meet annually to determine whether a design has been submitted during the previous year that in their view should win the prize and, if so, they may award the prize without waiting for the five year period to elapse. If no winner has been selected at the end of five years, the judges may decide to roll the prize forward for a further period on the same. Al Gore commented at today’s Press Conference: “Carbon dioxide levels already are far above anything measured in the prior 650,000 year record, and just last week in Paris scientists gave us their strongest warning yet of the consequences of inaction. So the dangers are clear. But the opportunities, if we take action now, are innumerable, and Sir Richard’s initiative to stimulate exploration of this new approach to the climate crisis is important and welcome.” James Lovelock continued: "To escape the consequences of global heating we need far more than Kyoto, far more than renewable energy and sustainable development. What we need is a near miracle to undo the harm that we have done. Sir Richard Branson's hugely generous prize could sow the seeds for a miraculous invention that would let us make a sustainable retreat to that lush and comfortable world we once knew. We have all spent far too long sleepwalking towards extinction." Sir Crispin Tickell: “We need a significant, lasting and harmless reduction in the volume of green house gases in the atmosphere. To this technology can make an important contribution. This Prize is a marvellous encouragement to all who have bright and practical ideas on how best to tackle one of the major problems of our time.” Dr James Hansen, Director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies: “I think we have a very brief window of opportunity to deal with climate change ... no longer than a decade, at the most. This is why I am supporting the Virgin Earth Challenge as a judge – we must explore all means, both known and unknown, to help alleviate this crisis.” Tim Flannery, author of The Weather Makers, gave a stark warning on the cost of inaction: “If we continue as we are, humanity will so pollute our atmosphere this century that we will create another world, the likes of which has not been seen for 50 million years. And we will destroy human civilisation in the process.” Sir Richard Branson concluded: “We would also like to call on governments and members of the international community to join us in The Virgin Earth Challenge by matching or adding to the prize pot available to encourage the greatest number of entrants of those who could come up with a solution which could save our planet. If the greatest minds in the world today compete, as I’m sure they will, for The Virgin Earth Challenge, I believe that a solution to the C02 problem could hopefully be found – a solution that could save our planet - not only for our children but for all the children yet to come.” The creation of the Virgin Earth Prize is one of a number of initiatives including investment in renewable energy research, development and production as part of Virgin Group's "Gaia Capitalism" project and 3 billion dollar Clinton Initiative pledge of September 2006. Editor’s Notes: Sir Richard Branson comments on the use of Prizes to fuel innovation: “History has shown that Technology Prizes have been invaluable in encouraging technological advancements and innovation in many, many areas of science and industry. From the very first recorded prize offered by the British government in 1714, offering three financial incentives to the inventor who developed a device capable of measuring longitude within a given degree of accuracy. The Prize, which has been immortalised in the book Longitude, was won by John Harrison, a self-educated clock maker. Harrison was awarded £20,000 in 1773 for devising an accurate and durable chronometer. But prizes were not just the domain of the British; in the 18th Century the French also used Prizes as an incentive to fuel innovation. In 1775 a 100,000 franc prize was offered to the individual who could produce an artificial form of alkali – the wining of this prize was to form the basis of the French chemical industry. Today, vacuum packed food in our fridges and cupboards is nothing remarkable, but it may surprise some to know that it was actually a Prize offered by Napoleon in 1810 which led to Nicolas Appert coming up with a method of vacuum packing cooked food in glass bottles – it took him 15 years of experiments but in the end won him 12,000 francs! It wasn’t long before newspapers and private sector companies became involved in setting up Prizes to encourage development in many areas. The American automobile industry was encouraged to grow through inducements to win prizes by competing in races set up by newspapers such as the Chicago Tribune in the late 19 th Century. Aviation and the development of long distance flying were greatly encouraged by similar prizes to those offered in America for the fledgling automobile industry. The Daily Mail prize for example, for the first flight across the Channel, was won byLouis Bleriot in 1909; and ten years later, Alcock and Brown won the Mail prize for crossing the Atlantic. Lindebergh was competing for a prize when he flew in the Spirit of St Louis, non-stop from New York to Paris in 1927. The Spitfire was the result of the Schneider trophy, which was a series of prizes for technological development. The most recent technological Prize was awarded in the area of space travel, and is one that I have come to know very well - the Ansari X Prize – a $10 million dollar Prize set up by Peter Diamandis and funded by the Ansari family. The Ansari X Prize was won in 2004 by Burt Rutan and Scaled Composites when they successfully flew SpaceShipOne to space and back twice within two weeks. The technological feat of SpaceShipOne resulted in the Virgin Group licensing that technology to build five space ships and two White Knight carrier crafts and has given birth to a commercially viable space tourism industry for the future. Using the latest technology in hybrid rocket motors and next generation turbo fan engines SS2 and WK2 will be environmentally benign.” " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

$25 million climate prize offered by Branson

Scientists must 'put their minds to it today,' he says of removing emissions

http://www.virginearth.com/

To encourage a viable technology which will result in the net removal of anthropogenic, atmospheric greenhouse gases each year for at least ten years without countervailing harmful effects.

"Today, Sir Richard Branson and Al Gore announced the setting up of a new Global science and technology prize – The Virgin Earth Challenge – in the belief that history has shown that prizes of this nature encourage technological advancements for the good of mankind.  The Virgin Earth Challenge will award $25 million to the individual or group who are able to demonstrate a commercially viable design which will result in the net removal of anthropogenic, atmospheric greenhouse gases each year for at least ten years without countervailing harmful effects.  This removal must have long term effects and contribute materially to the stability of the Earth’s climate. 

Sir Richard also announced that he would be joined in the adjudication of the Prize by a panel of five judges - all world authorities in their respective fields:  Al Gore, Sir Crispin Tickell, Tim Flannery, Jim Hansen and James Lovelock. The panel of judges will be assisted in their deliberations by The Climate Group and Special Advisor to The Virgin Earth Prize Judges, Steve Howard (see Editors notes for biographies).

The timing of the announcement of the Virgin Earth Challenge was particularly apt given the recent findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Changes, which last week announced that temperatures on earth could increase by as much as 6.4C by the end of this Century. 

The report, the most comprehensive to date from a UN Agency detailed the catastrophe results which even seemingly small temperature raises could have on our planet:  at + 2.4C coral reefs around the world would become extinct; + 3.4C would result in the rain forests becoming deserts; an increase of + 4.4C would result in the ice caps melting and severe heat waves across the globe displacing millions; the IPCC further predicted that sea levels could rise by 5 metres if temperatures reached + 5.4C which would result in ten of millions of climate refugees. 

For the first time ever a 6.4C raise was mentioned within UN predictions. If this were to occur it would result in most of life on our planet being exterminated.

Sir Richard Branson commented:  “We all now know that something radical has got to be done to turn back the tide of global warming.  By launching the $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge, the largest ever science and technology prize to be offered in history, we want to encourage scientists and individuals from around the world to come up with a way of removing lethal carbon dioxide from the earth’s atmosphere.  By competing for this prize they will follow in the footsteps of many of history’s greatest inventors and innovators.  But in this case potentially save the planet. It is our hope and belief that the winner of The Virgin Earth Challenge will help to reverse the collision course our beautiful world is currently on.  They will not only make history but preserve history for many, many generations to come.

However, it is important to remember that there is a real possibility that no one will win this prize.  Governments, and their people, must continue to use every effort to radically reduce CO2 emissions. “

The Virgin Earth Challenge will initially be open for five years; the judges will meet annually to determine whether a design has been submitted during the previous year that in their view should win the prize and, if so, they may award the prize without waiting for the five year period to elapse.  If no winner has been selected at the end of five years, the judges may decide to roll the prize forward for a further period on the same.

Al Gore commented at today’s Press Conference:  “Carbon dioxide levels already are far above anything measured in the prior 650,000 year record, and just last week in Paris scientists gave us their strongest warning yet of the consequences of inaction.  So the dangers are clear.  But the opportunities, if we take action now, are innumerable, and Sir Richard’s initiative to stimulate exploration of this new approach to the climate crisis is important and welcome.”

James Lovelock continued:  "To escape the consequences of global heating we need far more than Kyoto, far more than renewable energy and sustainable development.  What we need is a near miracle to undo the harm that we have done.  Sir Richard Branson's hugely generous prize could sow the seeds for a miraculous invention that would let us make a sustainable retreat to that lush and comfortable world we once knew. We have all spent far too long sleepwalking towards extinction."

Sir Crispin Tickell:  “We need a significant, lasting and harmless reduction in the volume of green house gases in the atmosphere.  To this technology can make an important contribution.  This Prize is a marvellous encouragement to all who have bright and practical ideas on how best to tackle one of the major problems of our time.”

Dr James Hansen, Director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies:  “I think we have a very brief window of opportunity to deal with climate change ... no longer than a decade, at the most. This is why I am supporting the Virgin Earth Challenge as a judge – we must explore all means, both known and unknown, to help alleviate this crisis.”

Tim Flannery, author of The Weather Makers, gave a stark warning on the cost of inaction:  “If we continue as we are, humanity will so pollute our atmosphere this century that we will create another world, the likes of which has not been seen for 50 million years. And we will destroy human civilisation in the process.”

Sir Richard Branson concluded:   “We would also like to call on governments and members of the international community to join us in The Virgin Earth Challenge by matching or adding to the prize pot available to encourage the greatest number of entrants of those who could come up with a solution which could save our planet.  If the greatest minds in the world today compete, as I’m sure they will, for The Virgin Earth Challenge, I believe that a solution to the C02 problem could hopefully be found – a solution that could save our planet - not only for our children but for all the children yet to come.”

The creation of the Virgin Earth Prize is one of a number of initiatives including investment in renewable energy research, development and production as part of Virgin Group's "Gaia Capitalism" project and 3 billion dollar Clinton Initiative pledge of September 2006.

Editor’s Notes:

Sir Richard Branson comments on the use of Prizes to fuel innovation:  “History has shown that Technology Prizes have been invaluable in encouraging technological advancements and innovation in many, many areas of science and industry.  From the very first recorded prize offered by the British government in 1714, offering three financial incentives to the inventor who developed a device capable of measuring longitude within a given degree of accuracy.  The Prize, which has been immortalised in the book Longitude, was won by John Harrison, a self-educated clock maker.  Harrison was awarded £20,000 in 1773 for devising an accurate and durable chronometer. 

But prizes were not just the domain of the British; in the 18th Century the French also used Prizes as an incentive to fuel innovation.  In 1775 a 100,000 franc prize was offered to the individual who could produce an artificial form of alkali – the wining of this prize was to form the basis of the French chemical industry.    Today, vacuum packed food in our fridges and cupboards is nothing remarkable, but it may surprise some to know that it was actually a Prize offered by Napoleon in 1810 which led to Nicolas Appert coming up with a method of vacuum packing cooked food in glass bottles – it took him 15 years of experiments but in the end won him 12,000 francs!

It wasn’t long before newspapers and private sector companies became involved in setting up Prizes to encourage development in many areas.  The American automobile industry was encouraged to grow through inducements to win prizes by competing in races set up by newspapers such as the Chicago Tribune in the late 19 th Century.  Aviation and the development of long distance flying were greatly encouraged by similar prizes to those offered in America for the fledgling automobile industry. The Daily Mail prize for example, for the first flight across the Channel, was won byLouis Bleriot in 1909; and ten years later, Alcock and Brown won the Mail prize for crossing the Atlantic. Lindebergh was competing for a prize when he flew in the Spirit of St Louis, non-stop from New York to Paris in 1927. The Spitfire was the result of the Schneider trophy, which was a series of prizes for technological development. 

The most recent technological Prize was awarded in the area of space travel, and is one that I have come to know very well - the Ansari X Prize – a $10 million dollar Prize set up by Peter Diamandis and funded by the Ansari family.  The Ansari X Prize was won in 2004 by Burt Rutan and Scaled Composites when they successfully flew SpaceShipOne to space and back twice within two weeks.  The technological feat of SpaceShipOne resulted in the Virgin Group licensing that technology to build five space ships and two White Knight carrier crafts and has given birth to a commercially viable space tourism industry for the future. Using the latest technology in hybrid rocket motors and next generation turbo fan engines SS2 and WK2 will be environmentally benign.” "

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 03:55:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DBsssH015179; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:54:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DBso2p015101; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:54:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YiTKQwPGa8PFdZok7Nouxa8Hxc0AzCMU0Fn2zDF7HUF3uxQ7zmosRTzOcYVwCWbD; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007221311544063@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:54:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c9559da27c3a2303ceacb446a51c8acf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.126 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72723 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It's not going to be easy, but, if there isn't any success it's "Goodbye Cruel World" for your grandchildren. In the meantime the WW II adage, "is this trip really necessary?" and curtailing other fossil fuel consumption would help. A 100 watt light bulb burns a pound of fossil-fuel carbon every 10 hours generating 44/12 = 3.666 pounds of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide out the power plant chimney. A 100,000 BTU per hour central heat furnace each hour of burning fossil fuel adds about 30 pounds of Carbon Dioxide to the earth's atmosphere, Burning a gallon of gasoline, adds about 30 pounds of Carbon Dioxide to the earth's atmosphere. It took Mother Nature hundreds of millions of years to sequester primordial atmospheric CO2 as fossil fuels to attain a stable carbon cycle. Undoing it in less than 300 years is going to be costly. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
It's not going to be easy, but, if there isn't any success it's "Goodbye Cruel World"
for your grandchildren. In the meantime the WW II adage, "is this trip really necessary?"
and curtailing other fossil fuel consumption would help.
A 100 watt light bulb burns a pound of fossil-fuel carbon every 10 hours
generating 44/12 = 3.666 pounds of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide out the
power plant chimney.
A 100,000 BTU per hour central heat furnace each hour of burning fossil fuel
adds about 30 pounds of Carbon Dioxide to the earth's atmosphere,
Burning a gallon of gasoline, adds about 30 pounds of Carbon Dioxide to
the earth's atmosphere.
It took Mother Nature hundreds of millions of years to sequester
primordial atmospheric CO2 as fossil fuels to attain a stable carbon cycle.
 
Undoing it in less than 300 years is going to be costly.
 
Fred
 
 
 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 06:16:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DEFvjQ015995; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:15:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DEFlta015958; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:15:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:15:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c74f78$e78632b0$ab037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:11:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C74F46.98B67D70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72724 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C74F46.98B67D70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C74F46.98D06E10" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C74F46.98D06E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFred wrote.. A 100 watt light bulb burns a pound of fossil-fuel carbon every 10 hours generating 44/12 =3D 3.666 pounds of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide out the power plant chimney. Howdy Fred, The UNIT # 1Fayette Power Plant ( FPP) located near Fayetteville Texas, = a coal fired plant owned by civil entities including the city of Austin = and Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) is one of the dirtiest = polluters on the list of the worse in the USA. Yes! It is owned and operated by the state of Texas and Austin. No = scrubber. They kept promising to clean it up for years and now the word = is they will be shutting it down as soon as they build Two more units = Number 4 and 5. Our ranch is under the plume downwind some 9 miles. Over some 50 miles NW is ALCOA Rockdale Works ( a WW2 leftover) that = mines lignite to fuel their aluminum plant ( another worse polluter). = One of the largest landowners in Texas with some 30-60,000 acres = stripped to the bone after 60 years of mining. Alcoa is negociating to = shut the whole works down.. provided a little incentive is offered.. = like hands free up in Iceland plus lotsa state of Texas and Fed money.. = Yum!. Not to worry, the state and Feds are gonna do sum-tin' 'bout dit = pollutin' all de nation. People over in Dime Box Texas just smile cuz they don' no nothin 'bout = politishuns 'cept they lizes when the truth is in their favor.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C74F46.98D06E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Fred wrote..
 
A 100 watt light bulb = burns a=20 pound of fossil-fuel carbon every 10 hours
generating 44/12 =3D = 3.666 pounds of=20 atmospheric Carbon Dioxide out the
power plant = chimney.
 
Howdy = Fred,
 
The UNIT # 1Fayette = Power Plant (=20 FPP) located near Fayetteville Texas, a coal fired plant owned by civil = entities=20 including the city of Austin and Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) = is one of=20 the dirtiest polluters on the list of the worse in the USA.
Yes! It is owned and = operated by=20 the state of Texas and Austin. No scrubber. They kept promising to clean = it up=20 for years and now the word is they will be shutting it down as soon as = they=20 build Two more units Number 4 and 5. Our ranch is under the plume = downwind some=20 9 miles.
 
  Over = some 50 miles NW=20 is ALCOA Rockdale Works ( a WW2 leftover)  that mines lignite to = fuel their=20 aluminum plant ( another worse polluter). One of the largest landowners = in Texas=20 with some 30-60,000 acres stripped to the bone after 60 years of mining. = Alcoa=20 is negociating to shut the whole works down.. provided a little = incentive is=20 offered.. like hands free up in Iceland plus lotsa state of Texas and = Fed=20 money.. Yum!.
 
Not to worry, the = state and Feds=20 are gonna do sum-tin'  'bout dit pollutin' all de = nation.
 
People over in Dime = Box Texas just=20 smile cuz they don' no nothin 'bout politishuns  'cept they lizes = when the=20 truth is in their favor.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C74F46.98D06E10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C74F46.98B67D70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c74f78$e1f491c0$ab037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C74F46.98B67D70-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 06:41:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DEfInn031106; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:41:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DEfGeb031089; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:41:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:41:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JcER9MgTPemuKgGoPK/e8YDdpT2B2MglkjbXos6vLGV/xtRTv0hd8YrKuNJYcYbk; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <411-22007221314419590@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VO]:Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:41:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b905792bbc22ba3d3a54f51c294ad01f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.222 Resent-Message-ID: <_XPP1.A.tlH.M4c0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72725 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Time to quit pissing and moaning and switching to doing, Richard. My first iteration based on water-CO2 sent to a local university prof: "Based on the CO2 absorption,-thermal-de-sorption properties of rainwater, streams, rivers, lakes, and seas that nature uses for moving CO2 about, I think gravity, solar,.wind, and stream-flow, and hydro engineering could be employed to extract Atmospheric CO2 cheaply and in huge quantities in an environmentally benign manner. Sequestering and storing it is another matter." "This could be easily tested in a lab using "stepped-plug flow" covered-uncovered water spreaders and heat lamps." Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 2/13/2007 7:16:07 AM Subject: [VO]:Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Fred wrote.. A 100 watt light bulb burns a pound of fossil-fuel carbon every 10 hours generating 44/12 = 3.666 pounds of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide out the power plant chimney. Howdy Fred, The UNIT # 1Fayette Power Plant ( FPP) located near Fayetteville Texas, a coal fired plant owned by civil entities including the city of Austin and Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) is one of the dirtiest polluters on the list of the worse in the USA. Yes! It is owned and operated by the state of Texas and Austin. No scrubber. They kept promising to clean it up for years and now the word is they will be shutting it down as soon as they build Two more units Number 4 and 5. Our ranch is under the plume downwind some 9 miles. Over some 50 miles NW is ALCOA Rockdale Works ( a WW2 leftover) that mines lignite to fuel their aluminum plant ( another worse polluter). One of the largest landowners in Texas with some 30-60,000 acres stripped to the bone after 60 years of mining. Alcoa is negociating to shut the whole works down.. provided a little incentive is offered.. like hands free up in Iceland plus lotsa state of Texas and Fed money.. Yum!. Not to worry, the state and Feds are gonna do sum-tin' 'bout dit pollutin' all de nation. People over in Dime Box Texas just smile cuz they don' no nothin 'bout politishuns 'cept they lizes when the truth is in their favor. Richard ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Blank
Time to quit pissing and moaning and switching to doing, Richard.
 
My first iteration based on water-CO2 sent to a local university prof:
 
"Based on the CO2 absorption,-thermal-de-sorption properties of rainwater, streams, rivers, lakes, and seas that nature uses for moving CO2 about, I think gravity, solar,.wind, and stream-flow, and hydro engineering could be
employed to extract Atmospheric CO2 cheaply and in huge quantities in an environmentally
benign manner. Sequestering and storing it is another matter."
"This could be easily tested in a lab using "stepped-plug flow" covered-uncovered water spreaders and heat lamps."
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/13/2007 7:16:07 AM
Subject: [VO]:Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

Fred wrote..
 
A 100 watt light bulb burns a pound of fossil-fuel carbon every 10 hours
generating 44/12 = 3.666 pounds of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide out the
power plant chimney.
 
Howdy Fred,
 
The UNIT # 1Fayette Power Plant ( FPP) located near Fayetteville Texas, a coal fired plant owned by civil entities including the city of Austin and Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) is one of the dirtiest polluters on the list of the worse in the USA.
Yes! It is owned and operated by the state of Texas and Austin. No scrubber. They kept promising to clean it up for years and now the word is they will be shutting it down as soon as they build Two more units Number 4 and 5. Our ranch is under the plume downwind some 9 miles.
 
  Over some 50 miles NW is ALCOA Rockdale Works ( a WW2 leftover)  that mines lignite to fuel their aluminum plant ( another worse polluter). One of the largest landowners in Texas with some 30-60,000 acres stripped to the bone after 60 years of mining. Alcoa is negociating to shut the whole works down.. provided a little incentive is offered.. like hands free up in Iceland plus lotsa state of Texas and Fed money.. Yum!.
 
Not to worry, the state and Feds are gonna do sum-tin'  'bout dit pollutin' all de nation.
 
People over in Dime Box Texas just smile cuz they don' no nothin 'bout politishuns  'cept they lizes when the truth is in their favor.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 07:09:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DF94FB003679; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:09:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DF939Q003663; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:09:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:09:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=oQtv9rzurkUPLDOcKj19IiJOblWwJ18kvV+iJ4SVrvidzD0+8hvIRpWCfUu7U9puCtjU005/EiaJ2tGo+PTblLG57J2zWq0cQUKCG0Jh9FdvOaACfLTNURYyTj2ItSsptcvj0ktMqMjltstE1QZMaqAzWZl8BHiwSZzowDR8Dt4= ; X-YMail-OSG: eOLTiTcVM1mtNXJl8RtjYhOT7ZDtPfNDcAmRW.QbXUieBJUcd.zaUCeJcgt8LfoP7DbD0VbpTSiUBjD83tgFfnAC8ZMVJWq5GdQgMgIn6AqFm5f9pCeSmITEqcMorPPi0es00jjJSPges9Y- Message-ID: <45D1D48B.2050809@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:08:59 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fjsparber@earthlink.net CC: vortex-l References: <410-22007221311544063@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22007221311544063@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72726 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > A 100,000 BTU per hour central heat furnace each hour of burning fossil fuel adds about 30 pounds of Carbon Dioxide to the earth's atmosphere, Equally bad for the environment, and probably far worse for humans (incresed cancer risk) is this information: http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html Americans living near coal plants are exposed to far more radiation than those living or working in nuclear plants. Hope Richard has a whole house electrostatic air filter built into the AC. Based on the predicted combustion, and cumulative releases for the past 100 years of coal combustion (pre WWII to the near future) this is the aftermath which our grandkids must live with: U.S. toxic releases(from combustion of 111,716 million tons of coal): Uranium: 145,230 tons Thorium: 357,491 tons Hey folks this is in the form of highly particulated toxic radioactive particles which stay suspended in the atmosphere. By comparison Chernobyl released less twenty tons into the air (7000 time less) and most of it fell to earth in a week, as it was less particulated. Worldwide release (from combustion of 637,409 million tons): Uranium: 828,632 tons (containing 5883 tons of uranium-235) Thorium: 2,039,709 tons (thanks to Horace Heffner, who may be floating to sea in a melting Alaskan glacier by now) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 08:53:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DGo2Ch019138; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:52:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DGmDEb017982; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:48:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:48:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GCVnmMBuFQZ28ThyWWjHYXF0xSdBw6t9K/Ka3+dOn8tkKYKlQeJ6gKJDMxl5FsHs; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007221316480572@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:48:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940404c6d4481ff7854b5e1f1bc20e107de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.54 Resent-Message-ID: <2218BB.A.4YE.Nve0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72727 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An interesting article, Jones. But, for the life of me I can't see why spending money to get the coal-burning power plants cleaned up is so hard for the greedy-profit-oriented energy czars to swallow. The EPA edict on automotive emissions-mileage, antifreeze, and crankcase and lube oil processing gave the economy one hell of a boost with the industries it has created along with less cost per mile vehicle operation. Perhaps a weekend of dire need only energy use by the public would send a message to them and the congress that the public wants action. Stock up on candles, snacks, reading materials, and canned goods, turn down the thermostat, and shut off everything except the refrigerator. Only flush the toilet once every 24 hours on "President's Day" the ammonia and Carbon Neutral CO2 is part of nature's Biomass Nitrogen-Carbon Cycle. :-) Fred Jones Beene wrote. > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > A 100,000 BTU per hour central heat furnace each hour of burning fossil fuel adds about 30 pounds of Carbon Dioxide to the earth's atmosphere, > > Equally bad for the environment, and probably far worse for humans > (increased cancer risk) is this information: > > http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html > > Americans living near coal plants are exposed to far more radiation than > those living or working in nuclear plants. Hope Richard has a whole > house electrostatic air filter built into the AC. > > Based on the predicted combustion, and cumulative releases for the past > 100 years of coal combustion (pre WWII to the near future) this is the > aftermath which our grandkids must live with: > > U.S. toxic releases(from combustion of 111,716 million tons of coal): > > Uranium: 145,230 tons > > Thorium: 357,491 tons > > Hey folks this is in the form of highly particulated toxic radioactive > particles which stay suspended in the atmosphere. By comparison > Chernobyl released less twenty tons into the air (7000 time less) and > most of it fell to earth in a week, as it was less particulated. > > Worldwide release (from combustion of 637,409 million tons): > > Uranium: 828,632 tons (containing 5883 tons of uranium-235) > > Thorium: 2,039,709 tons > > (thanks to Horace Heffner, who may be floating to sea in a melting > Alaskan glacier by now) > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 09:20:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DHJs1u010939; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:19:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DHJrwV010920; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:19:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:19:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:19:01 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72728 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Diode Array perusing Virgin prize and support Status: O X-Status: I'm going to submit the diode array for Virgin's CO2 reduction prize. I have already submitted it to Virgin fuels as a wonderful energy source. I would like to confine them to licensing limited to CO2 removal for the prize and licensing limited to other defined applications as other business. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 10:03:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DI2dOO000864; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:02:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DI2YPg000806; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:02:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:02:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:50:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-reply-to: <410-22007221316480572@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72729 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > An interesting article, Jones. > > But, for the life of me I can't see why spending money to get the > coal-burning power plants > cleaned up is so hard for the greedy-profit-oriented energy czars to > swallow. what do you expect after 30 years of: "Free enterprise can do no wrong". Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 11:10:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DJAOq2007120; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:10:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DJAILP007098; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:10:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:10:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c74fa2$96aa06d0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:40:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72730 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Piezoelectric electrical power question Status: O X-Status: Steve, The electrical model of a piezoelectric generator is a voltage source in series with a capacitor. This means you can't get DC out of such a generator, but you can get high voltage bursts by hammering a crystal as in a charcoal grill igniter. The snap you hear is in part a hammer hitting a chunk of barium titanate or the like. I don't know what the peak power in the spark is. In principle, you could build a generator that whacks crystals repetitively and if you are clever, it might even be fairly efficient. It would be a gross mismatch to general electrical and electronic practice, which emphasizes high current and low voltage from electromagnetic generators. Mike Carrell ------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: "Vortex" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:53 PM Subject: [Vo]: Piezoelectric electrical power question > Vorts, > > Can any one describe how much electrical power can be extracted from > compressing or bending piezoelectric crystals? > > Is there a primer somewhere that does a decent job of describing the > physics > involved? > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > svj@OrionWorks.com, orionworks@charter.net > www.OrionWorks.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 11:37:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DJb2Iq020243; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:37:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DJb0AF020226; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:37:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:37:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200702131936.l1DJaxo0074003@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:36:57 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_b39f57d83fc5771669a0a7b7ae6220e9" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72731 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Piezoelectric electrical power question Status: O X-Status: --=_b39f57d83fc5771669a0a7b7ae6220e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Mike, Apparently DARPA is looking onto the possibility of harvesting electrical power from piezoelectric sources. See the following Wikipidia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric About a third of the way down the Wiki article is the following tantalizing but brief sentence. "A similar idea is being researched by DARPA in the United States in a project called Energy Harvesting, which includes an attempt to power battlefield equipment by piezoelectric generators embedded in soldiers' boots." * * * * Such research does make me wonder how much practical electrical energy can be harvested and/or stored from the right combination of piezoelectric crystals. Correct me if I'm wrong but is it correct to assume that if we know a particular piezoelectric crystal's harmonic frequency, and then we proceeded to "bang" it or stress it at its specific harmonic frequency that by doing so is likely to be the best way to maximize the amount of potential electrical energy that can be "harvested". Incidentally, I DO know that these crystals generate extremely high voltages, sometimes in the range of 10,000 to 25,000 volts. What I'd like to know is how much amperage is associated with such stratospheric voltage readings. One assumes the amperage readings must be quite small. Never the less, I wonder if certain crystal combinations could possibly increase the amount of amperage that could be harvested while simultaneously maintaining extremely high voltages. Any thoughts? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Steve, > > The electrical model of a piezoelectric generator is a > voltage source in series with a capacitor. This means > you can't get DC out of such a generator, but you can > get high voltage bursts by hammering a crystal as in > a charcoal grill igniter. The snap you hear is in part > a hammer hitting a chunk of barium titanate or the like. > I don't know what the peak power in the spark is. In > principle, you could build a generator that whacks > crystals repetitively and if you are clever, it might > even be fairly efficient. It would be a gross mismatch > to general electrical and electronic practice, which > emphasizes high current and low voltage from > electromagnetic generators. > > Mike Carrell --=_b39f57d83fc5771669a0a7b7ae6220e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Mike,

Apparently DARPA is looking onto the possibility of harvesting electrical p= ower from piezoelectric sources.

See the following Wikipidia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric

About a third of the way down the Wiki article is the following tantalizing= but brief sentence.

"A similar idea is being researched by DARPA in the United States in a proj= ect called Energy Harvesting, which includes an attempt to power battlefiel= d equipment by piezoelectric generators embedded in soldiers' boots."

* * * *

Such research does make me wonder how much practical electrical energy can = be harvested and/or stored from the right combination of piezoelectric crys= tals.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it correct to assume that if we know a parti= cular piezoelectric crystal's harmonic frequency, and then we proceeded to = "bang" it or stress it at its specific harmonic frequency that by doing so = is likely to be the best way to maximize the amount of potential electrical= energy that can be "harvested". Incidentally, I DO know that these crystal= s generate extremely high voltages, sometimes in the range of 10,000 to 25,= 000 volts. What I'd like to know is how much amperage is associated with su= ch stratospheric voltage readings. One assumes the amperage readings must b= e quite small. Never the less, I wonder if certain crystal combinations cou= ld possibly increase the amount of amperage that could be harvested while s= imultaneously maintaining extremely high voltages.

Any thoughts?


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


>
> Steve,
>
> The electrical model of a piezoelectric generator is a
> voltage source in series with a capacitor. This means
> you can't get DC out of such a generator, but you can
> get high voltage bursts by hammering a crystal as in
> a charcoal grill igniter. The snap you hear is in part
> a hammer hitting a chunk of barium titanate or the like.
> I don't know what the peak power in the spark is. In
> principle, you could build a generator that whacks
> crystals repetitively and if you are clever, it might
> even be fairly efficient. It would be a gross mismatch
> to general electrical and electronic practice, which
> emphasizes high current and low voltage from
> electromagnetic generators.
>
> Mike Carrell


--=_b39f57d83fc5771669a0a7b7ae6220e9-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 13:03:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DL30bu023942; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:03:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DL2s0R023915; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:02:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:02:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:02:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0p94t291ibghrmu88me314sms7fr7pjd66@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:02:50 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1DL2pSx023891 Resent-Message-ID: <-nlyRB.A.i1F.-di0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72732 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:24:55 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> required. A cross between NERVA and a jet engine would heat air instead of >> Hydrogen. CF would replace the fission power source. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> > >So it would run on hot air. ;-) > Yup, "vaporware". ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 13:44:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DLihmw014941; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:44:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DLihM0014936; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:44:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:44:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070213144404.036a4d98@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:49:01 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2MpVfC.A.QpD.KFj0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72733 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU Status: O X-Status: Somewhat off topic, but see: http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/teraflops.htm?iid=newstab+supercomputing This is astounding. This 80-core chip runs at 3.16 GHz and consumes 62 W. It is as powerful as the worlds biggest computer circa 1996, ASCI Red, which used "nearly 10,000 Pentium Pro processors running at 200MHz and consumed 500kW of power plus an additional 500kW just to cool the room that housed it." I discussed multi-core MPP computers briefly in my book, in the beginning of chapter 10. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 13:51:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DLpbwT014311; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:51:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DLpZKr014298; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:51:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:51:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200702132151.l1DLpaPt035385@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:51:35 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_29adde36b4f0bfc9f3dba94a533f9213" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <67OX4.A.OfD.nLj0FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72734 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Article indirectly trashes CF repeatedly, guilt by association Status: O X-Status: --=_29adde36b4f0bfc9f3dba94a533f9213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See article: UCSD, nature, the signaling gateway column, by Philip Ball In his article Mr. Ball repeatedly associates CF with fringe and pseudo science. See: http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070212/full/070212-6.html Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_29adde36b4f0bfc9f3dba94a533f9213 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See article:

UCSD, nature, the signaling gateway column, by Philip Ball

In his article Mr. Ball repeatedly associates CF with fringe and pseudo sci= ence.

See:

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070212/full/070212-6.html

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_29adde36b4f0bfc9f3dba94a533f9213-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 14:28:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1DMRuBf030095; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:27:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1DMRtuQ030084; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:27:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:27:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nsWZg+32wrgKiILS4KqOSuKTagw9q+NW+X04vtcMjMCWJ5Jjkia5pug++Ee2AIfCjUBJhGbGmROEHWTi+sIaTUC/oLZHcKzvPpWb1BpnRd+Ih+jj2Xgf/6wsgGJYEj0B2GlW2DP848BCCrc4j6+pu55oYd9y8V2XT11c83ROjck= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:27:53 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070213144404.036a4d98@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070213144404.036a4d98@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72735 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/13/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Somewhat off topic, but see: > > http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/teraflops.htm?iid=newstab+supercomputing > > This is astounding. Yes, but barely adequate to run the Genetech s/w with two displays of 32 channel video each. Terry PS "Got your implant yet?" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 17:43:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E1hYRg001136; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:43:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E1hRYf001080; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:43:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:43:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=dHIHkeFWbyI+OzkBKRTAVqEx3fO2a3cNyxjQ1zsvts61IIH8/5vy00yJ8I40CUit; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <1172232.1171417405613.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:43:25 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Article indirectly trashes CF repeatedly, guilt by association Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c8eaee6a6c4977ec2b35aeb9ce9429904c9b5e52464f59f68350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.51 Resent-Message-ID: <2PPdvB.A.vQ.-km0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72736 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks writes: >UCSD, nature, the signaling gateway column, by Philip Ball > >In his article Mr. Ball repeatedly associates CF with fringe and pseudo science. Ah, Nature's first attack on cold fusion this year. Perhaps it is a sign of spring -- the sap is rising. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 18:04:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E24XqH014228; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E24VQS014208; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:04:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070213144404.036a4d98@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070213144404.036a4d98@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:04:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1E24SY2014185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72737 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:49:01 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Somewhat off topic, but see: > >http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/teraflops.htm?iid=newstab+supercomputing > I wonder what they charge for it? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 18:24:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E2OhoO020603; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:24:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E2Of7C020582; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:24:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:24:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=k3mnK1qKl+3/27OAbZs3wHuuXUmZY6M2vPL+s+vCZST4EhwwQfiqabXXoOGhjdXx; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <16381940.1171419879472.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:24:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c8eaee6a6c4977ec2863579d3fe7397884d96d0e5cf0b15e0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72738 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>Somewhat off topic, but see: >> >>http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/teraflops.htm?iid=newstab+supercomputing >> >I wonder what they charge for it? It is NFS (Not For Sale). It is just a prototype device. It does not do any useful computation, but it does useless work at record-breaking speed. (Which, come to think of it, is how you might describe Windows.) This one was designed to test the new "mesh" interconnections between the cores. This interconnection scheme can be scale up to thousands of cores, apparently. They are still working on the memory, which is some secret new configuration. See: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37572 They figure it will be available in a practical version in about 5 years. Japanese researchers last year demonstrated a 512-core math coprocessor that may achieve 2-PFlops next year. See: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/11/06/japan_512-core_co-pro/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 20:41:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E4fbXX009681; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:41:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E4fZLi009656; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:41:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:41:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:41:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:41:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1E4fW4k009641 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72739 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +1300: Hi, [snip] >That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst. > >There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge imbalance, >in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down >(though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge imbalance >obviously remains the same. > >It is also possible to increase the electric field density without changing >the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point. [snip] If the charge remains constant while the plates are being pulled apart, and the capacitance if inversely proportional to the separation distance, then the voltage should be proportional to the separation distance, and consequently the field strength (Voltage / distance) should be constant. However it's afternoon, and I may I have goofed once again. :( Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 22:27:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E6RmPb013253; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:27:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E6RkVh013236; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:27:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ox1KLP3Wy65of7uzy7wcSpRrClyLIFNr36QD5pYYs7Q6cYO9NKhu6ddANoYhWt/cfRyp1A0gtSXAU2NrsL+Ry88/MYlKu2RQNiE/GPkOtGOoVSYYoPNspyv5rtEIna0hQ7oMlx3g4+h/RpgzUvhrKxBYU3TxwKEpnVoKOz2zAXc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:27:45 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_51510_3387687.1171434465616" References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72740 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_51510_3387687.1171434465616 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In a 2 plate capacitor when together the field strength is concentrated more on the inside of the 2 plates, while there is the same net field once separated now it is spread out, and the field of the opposite plate isn't in range so actually it is a lot weaker. On 2/14/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to John Berry's message of Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +1300: > Hi, > [snip] > >That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst. > > > >There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge > imbalance, > >in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down > >(though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge > imbalance > >obviously remains the same. > > > >It is also possible to increase the electric field density without > changing > >the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point. > [snip] > If the charge remains constant while the plates are being pulled apart, > and the > capacitance if inversely proportional to the separation distance, then the > voltage should be proportional to the separation distance, and > consequently the > field strength (Voltage / distance) should be constant. > > However it's afternoon, and I may I have goofed once again. :( > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > ------=_Part_51510_3387687.1171434465616 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In a 2 plate capacitor when together the field strength is concentrated more on the inside of the 2 plates, while there is the same net field once separated now it is spread out, and the field of the opposite plate isn't in range so actually it is a lot weaker.


On 2/14/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  John Berry's message of Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +1300:
Hi,
[snip]
>That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst.
>
>There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge imbalance,
>in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down
>(though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge imbalance
>obviously remains the same.
>
>It is also possible to increase the electric field density without changing
>the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point.
[snip]
If the charge remains constant while the plates are being pulled apart, and the
capacitance if inversely proportional to the separation distance, then the
voltage should be proportional to the separation distance, and consequently the
field strength (Voltage / distance) should be constant.

However it's afternoon, and I may I have goofed once again. :(

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.


------=_Part_51510_3387687.1171434465616-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 00:36:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E8acZN009428; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 00:36:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E8abIX009403; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 00:36:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 00:36:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02d501c75012$f2dc3660$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:34:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1E8aVu9009372 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72741 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor C=epsilon*A/d so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v = epsilon*A * v/d so v/d is constant too. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus > In a 2 plate capacitor when together the field strength is concentrated more > on the inside of the 2 plates, while there is the same net field once > separated now it is spread out, and the field of the opposite plate isn't in > range so actually it is a lot weaker. > > > On 2/14/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> In reply to John Berry's message of Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +1300: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst. >> > >> >There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge >> imbalance, >> >in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down >> >(though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge >> imbalance >> >obviously remains the same. >> > >> >It is also possible to increase the electric field density without >> changing >> >the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point. >> [snip] >> If the charge remains constant while the plates are being pulled apart, >> and the >> capacitance if inversely proportional to the separation distance, then the >> voltage should be proportional to the separation distance, and >> consequently the >> field strength (Voltage / distance) should be constant. >> >> However it's afternoon, and I may I have goofed once again. :( >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 01:42:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1E9g7oU009082; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:42:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1E9g2Dv009037; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:42:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:42:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NVEIfrjzkIyOd6y3ETIj670gbqelVPEaVYoYk7YaV4IiW8QZyuRouQaZtSCAjRqg; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007231494118185@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:41:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e41296d5c1f5536f1e8e91a5c4787127350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.70 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72742 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and lakes, and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the algae are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal mines for sequestering. Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert".
 
I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and lakes,
and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the algae
are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal mines for sequestering.
 
Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 02:50:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EAoIAr010177; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:50:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EAoF0I010148; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:50:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:50:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=AtO0nrudMsV0Rx8mOn+7w1MXqNgq66tdO0Us53nkZsZ8+iKPx5o6WY2biqJF1+8F; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072314104957361@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:49:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94042764f985db2202f6527c43d16dd2653350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.159 Resent-Message-ID: <1o9-ZC.A.geC.nlu0FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72743 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Do-it-yourself oil and gas wells from algae while lowering atmospheric CO2. http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2007/2007-02-09-09.asp "FY 2008 Budget Cut $100 Million for Coal to Liquid Fuel Project" "The proposed plant would convert 1.7 million tons of waste coal per year into 60 million gallons of non-petroleum based liquid fuel. Forty million gallons of the total is planned to be converted into zero-sulfur diesel fuel and 20 million gallons into naptha, a gasoline production feedstock. "We are doing far more than simply funding research," Governor Rendell said. "We have assembled a coalition of government and private businesses that will purchase nearly all the product generated by the plant for the next 10 years, guaranteeing that this new technology will have the opportunity to survive and compete in the energy marketplace." U.S. Senator Arlen Specter and Congressman Tim Holden, whose district encompasses the plant, have worked toward development of this project for nearly a decade. Governor Rendell promised to work with both of them, along with newly-elected U.S. Senator Robert Casey Jr. and the rest of Pennsylvania’s congressional delegation, to coordinate a united, bipartisan effort to restore funding for the plant. In addition to creating liquid fuels to reduce imports of foreign oil, the proposed plant would - at no cost to the taxpayers - reclaim dangerous abandoned mine sites and remove waste coal piles that pollute waterways. Pennsylvania has over two billion tons of waste coal, and more than 180,000 acres of abandoned mine lands left over by the unregulated mining practices of the past. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 2/14/2007 2:42:23 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and lakes, and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the algae are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal mines for sequestering. Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Do-it-yourself oil and gas wells from algae while lowering atmospheric CO2.
 
 

"The proposed plant would convert 1.7 million tons of waste coal per year into 60 million gallons of non-petroleum based liquid fuel. Forty million gallons of the total is planned to be converted into zero-sulfur diesel fuel and 20 million gallons into naptha, a gasoline production feedstock.

"We are doing far more than simply funding research," Governor Rendell said. "We have assembled a coalition of government and private businesses that will purchase nearly all the product generated by the plant for the next 10 years, guaranteeing that this new technology will have the opportunity to survive and compete in the energy marketplace."

U.S. Senator Arlen Specter and Congressman Tim Holden, whose district encompasses the plant, have worked toward development of this project for nearly a decade. Governor Rendell promised to work with both of them, along with newly-elected U.S. Senator Robert Casey Jr. and the rest of Pennsylvania’s congressional delegation, to coordinate a united, bipartisan effort to restore funding for the plant.

In addition to creating liquid fuels to reduce imports of foreign oil, the proposed plant would - at no cost to the taxpayers - reclaim dangerous abandoned mine sites and remove waste coal piles that pollute waterways.

Pennsylvania has over two billion tons of waste coal, and more than 180,000 acres of abandoned mine lands left over by the unregulated mining practices of the past. "

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/14/2007 2:42:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert".
 
I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and lakes,
and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the algae
are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal mines for sequestering.
 
Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration.  :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 03:16:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EBG1OW021497; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:16:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EBFxd9021479; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:15:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:15:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <030801c75029$39925100$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007231494118185@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:13:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1EBFwXj021459 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72744 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Floating microalgae ponds indeed Fred, but seas and oceans might be a better bet than fresh water surfaces, because of higher mineral contents and available surface area. That's what I proposed in earlier threads concerning biodiesel. Part or all of the production could be transformed in BD, and the rest if any could be dumped/sequestered in a less refined form maybe (would have to be a non-rotting form). The production would be transported to land for fuel or sequestration using either underwater pipelines or supertankers collecting it from farm to farm. Alternatively we could exploit the natural algae fields in the oceans with supertankers which would also do the harvesting and processing to BD, if it turned out to be cheaper. In any case photosynthesis + sequestering does seem to be the best bet to absorb excess atmospheric CO2, and I suspect that doing the photosynthesis part at sea would be the only way to do it on a sufficiently large scale. All that's left to work out now is the practical details, come on guys shall we run collectively for the Branson prize and solve the world's energy problems at the same time? :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". > > I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and lakes, > and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the algae > are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal mines for sequestering. > > Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 03:32:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EBWaPl027524; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:32:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EBWVYo027487; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:32:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:32:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=m6X9OWpWoLs9QFkL4rOOUQWa8ZU7sLCTWUBCrCJDJ1KKL0J7GIFMviabplyKlNgM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072314113225635@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:32:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94089ef07398fc2fa12e8a378492925abfb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.159 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72745 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > > Floating microalgae ponds indeed Fred, but seas and oceans might be a better bet than fresh water surfaces, because of higher mineral contents and available surface area. That's what I proposed in earlier threads concerning biodiesel. Part or all of the production could be transformed in BD, and the rest if any could be dumped/sequestered in a less refined form maybe (would have to be a non-rotting form). > Judging from the"Algae Bloom" on Lake Mead a few years ago, and the bloom that Jones Beene pulled up on Google where the Colorado river dumps into the Gulf of California, any major river can be used for floating sieve algae farms plenty of natural nitrates in rivers and lakes (and groundwater too, judging from how fast algae form in livestock watering tanks from wells over 100 feet deep). The rotting algae "husks" are starch-cellulosic and ferment to methane, hence an abandoned coal mine filled with algae becomes an oil and gas well, Michel. Fred > > The production would be transported to land for fuel or sequestration using either underwater pipelines or supertankers collecting it from farm to farm. > > Alternatively we could exploit the natural algae fields in the oceans with supertankers which would also do the harvesting and processing to BD, if it turned out to be cheaper. > > In any case photosynthesis + sequestering does seem to be the best bet to absorb excess atmospheric CO2, and I suspect that doing the photosynthesis part at sea would be the only way to do it on a sufficiently large scale. All that's left to work out now is the practical details, come on guys shall we run collectively for the Branson prize and solve the world's energy problems at the same time? :) > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:41 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > > > > Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". > > > > I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and lakes, > > and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the algae > > are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal mines for sequestering. > > > > Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) > > > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 03:59:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EBx5cH006153; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:59:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EBx3QR006119; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:59:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:59:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <032301c7502f$3d241b90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220072314113225635@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:57:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1EBx02G006062 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72746 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fresh water expanses offer less surface area than oceans obviously, and the minerals they contain couldn't be depleted indefinitely as they are needed to grow food. As for methanization we would have to make sure the absorbed carbon doesn't leak back to the atmosphere as a worse GHG than CO2! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >> Floating microalgae ponds indeed Fred, but seas and oceans might be a > better bet than fresh water surfaces, because of higher mineral contents > and available surface area. That's what I proposed in earlier threads > concerning biodiesel. Part or all of the production could be transformed in > BD, and the rest if any could be dumped/sequestered in a less refined form > maybe (would have to be a non-rotting form). >> > Judging from the"Algae Bloom" on Lake Mead a few years ago, and the bloom > that > Jones Beene pulled up on Google where the Colorado river dumps into > the Gulf of California, any major river can be used for floating sieve > algae farms > plenty of natural nitrates in rivers and lakes (and groundwater too, > judging from > how fast algae form in livestock watering tanks from wells over 100 feet > deep). > > The rotting algae "husks" are starch-cellulosic and ferment to methane, > hence an abandoned coal mine > filled with algae becomes an oil and gas well, Michel. > > Fred >> >> The production would be transported to land for fuel or sequestration > using either underwater pipelines or supertankers collecting it from farm > to farm. >> >> Alternatively we could exploit the natural algae fields in the oceans > with supertankers which would also do the harvesting and processing to BD, > if it turned out to be cheaper. >> >> In any case photosynthesis + sequestering does seem to be the best bet to > absorb excess atmospheric CO2, and I suspect that doing the photosynthesis > part at sea would be the only way to do it on a sufficiently large scale. > All that's left to work out now is the practical details, come on guys > shall we run collectively for the Branson prize and solve the world's > energy problems at the same time? :) >> >> Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: "vortex-l" >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:41 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize >> >> >> > Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". >> > >> > I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, > and lakes, >> > and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the > algae >> > are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal > mines for sequestering. >> > >> > Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) >> > >> > Fred > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 04:01:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EC1kxo007636; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:01:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EC1iw0007617; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:01:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:01:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:01:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:01:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1EC1gd2007597 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72747 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:27:45 +1300: Hi, [snip] >In a 2 plate capacitor when together the field strength is concentrated more >on the inside of the 2 plates, while there is the same net field once >separated now it is spread out, and the field of the opposite plate isn't in >range so actually it is a lot weaker. [snip] I guess it depends on how far apart they are pulled. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 04:33:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ECX7Kr016929; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:33:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ECX4Qd016914; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:33:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:33:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Z8c4Og8RWrZUXBepTHuUzAMVmV8NVNCfM6Te3LzuC/c1cEy2bRktWUnfgzPI9G2pPLxp3V9xs23cPy2L8ifc6yzWCnKt76JVXbugN6k4gnucL8tBNTu8Ngl3gkfoOGITz8WTmfe5VNDPEzSHNBz8+AjlgRSkAzdVQ0shafvK7OU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:33:03 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <410-22007231494118185@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22007231494118185@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/14/07, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". > > I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, and > lakes, > and Blanton's swimming pool, Fortunately, I no longer own said aglae hole. I have moved up in the world to the land of $10k prostitutes: http://snipurl.com/1a4go Terry, with an attitude since MARTA decided not to renew our contract. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 04:40:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ECehvH027714; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:40:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ECeciZ027671; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:40:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:40:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SHQNZ8kfS+rc4qnifdS8hxUhXFEvHBjltOLhczE9WVWg9S8REAHbxn4YKlDIjyGn; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072314123952589@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:39:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94010d2fff5f6839ab036d97222e680f3a8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72749 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > Fresh water expanses offer less surface area than oceans obviously, and the minerals they contain couldn't be depleted indefinitely as they are needed to grow food. > > As for methanization we would have to make sure the absorbed carbon doesn't leak back to the atmosphere as a worse GHG than CO2! > > Michel > Don't ignore the MIT Algae Farms from Power Plant Stack Emissions, for sequestering CO2- too, Michel. CO2-too sounds like the little engine that could. :-) http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm "Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40% less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86% less nitrous oxide." "After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. >From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials — one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation." "One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density — about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today." "For his part, Berzin calculates that just one 1,000 megawatt power plant using his system could produce more than 40 million gallons of biodiesel and 50 million gallons of ethanol a year. That would require a 2,000-acre "farm" of algae-filled tubes near the power plant. There are nearly 1,000 power plants nationwide with enough space nearby for a few hundred to a few thousand acres to grow algae and make a good profit, he says." Fred > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:32 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> > >> Floating microalgae ponds indeed Fred, but seas and oceans might be a > > better bet than fresh water surfaces, because of higher mineral contents > > and available surface area. That's what I proposed in earlier threads > > concerning biodiesel. Part or all of the production could be transformed in > > BD, and the rest if any could be dumped/sequestered in a less refined form > > maybe (would have to be a non-rotting form). > >> > > Judging from the"Algae Bloom" on Lake Mead a few years ago, and the bloom > > that > > Jones Beene pulled up on Google where the Colorado river dumps into > > the Gulf of California, any major river can be used for floating sieve > > algae farms > > plenty of natural nitrates in rivers and lakes (and groundwater too, > > judging from > > how fast algae form in livestock watering tanks from wells over 100 feet > > deep). > > > > The rotting algae "husks" are starch-cellulosic and ferment to methane, > > hence an abandoned coal mine > > filled with algae becomes an oil and gas well, Michel. > > > > Fred > >> > >> The production would be transported to land for fuel or sequestration > > using either underwater pipelines or supertankers collecting it from farm > > to farm. > >> > >> Alternatively we could exploit the natural algae fields in the oceans > > with supertankers which would also do the harvesting and processing to BD, > > if it turned out to be cheaper. > >> > >> In any case photosynthesis + sequestering does seem to be the best bet to > > absorb excess atmospheric CO2, and I suspect that doing the photosynthesis > > part at sea would be the only way to do it on a sufficiently large scale. > > All that's left to work out now is the practical details, come on guys > > shall we run collectively for the Branson prize and solve the world's > > energy problems at the same time? :) > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> To: "vortex-l" > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:41 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > >> > >> > >> > Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". > >> > > >> > I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, > > and lakes, > >> > and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the > > algae > >> > are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal > > mines for sequestering. > >> > > >> > Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) > >> > > >> > Fred > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 05:05:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ED5ZJc014671; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:05:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ED5WFd014655; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:05:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:05:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <033c01c75038$8665d600$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220072314123952589@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:03:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1ED5Tmm014626 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sure Fred I am not ignoring this wonderful emission lowering scheme, but we also need a solution to recapture what's already been dumped into the atmosphere, that's the challenge. However I have no doubt some inspiration can be gotten from this scheme, e.g. bubbling to increase CO2 dissolution. Spraying the phytoplancton laden seawater could achieve the same result maybe? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> Fresh water expanses offer less surface area than oceans obviously, and > the minerals they contain couldn't be depleted indefinitely as they are > needed to grow food. >> >> As for methanization we would have to make sure the absorbed carbon > doesn't leak back to the atmosphere as a worse GHG than CO2! >> >> Michel >> > Don't ignore the MIT Algae Farms from Power Plant Stack Emissions, for > sequestering CO2- too, Michel. > > CO2-too sounds like the little engine that could. :-) > > http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm > > "Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power > plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New > England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40% less CO2 (a > larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86% less > nitrous oxide." > > "After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. >>From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel > for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials - one with algal > biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried > green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further > reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation." > > "One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density - about 50% of its > weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce > 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from > soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today." > > "For his part, Berzin calculates that just one 1,000 megawatt power plant > using his system could produce more than 40 million gallons of biodiesel > and 50 million gallons of ethanol a year. That would require a 2,000-acre > "farm" of algae-filled tubes near the power plant. There are nearly 1,000 > power plants nationwide with enough space nearby for a few hundred to a few > thousand acres to grow algae and make a good profit, he says." > > Fred > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:32 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize >> >> >> > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Floating microalgae ponds indeed Fred, but seas and oceans might be a >> > better bet than fresh water surfaces, because of higher mineral contents >> > and available surface area. That's what I proposed in earlier threads >> > concerning biodiesel. Part or all of the production could be > transformed in >> > BD, and the rest if any could be dumped/sequestered in a less refined > form >> > maybe (would have to be a non-rotting form). >> >> >> > Judging from the"Algae Bloom" on Lake Mead a few years ago, and the > bloom >> > that >> > Jones Beene pulled up on Google where the Colorado river dumps into >> > the Gulf of California, any major river can be used for floating sieve >> > algae farms >> > plenty of natural nitrates in rivers and lakes (and groundwater too, >> > judging from >> > how fast algae form in livestock watering tanks from wells over 100 feet >> > deep). >> > >> > The rotting algae "husks" are starch-cellulosic and ferment to methane, >> > hence an abandoned coal mine >> > filled with algae becomes an oil and gas well, Michel. >> > >> > Fred >> >> >> >> The production would be transported to land for fuel or sequestration >> > using either underwater pipelines or supertankers collecting it from > farm >> > to farm. >> >> >> >> Alternatively we could exploit the natural algae fields in the oceans >> > with supertankers which would also do the harvesting and processing to > BD, >> > if it turned out to be cheaper. >> >> >> >> In any case photosynthesis + sequestering does seem to be the best bet > to >> > absorb excess atmospheric CO2, and I suspect that doing the > photosynthesis >> > part at sea would be the only way to do it on a sufficiently large > scale. >> > All that's left to work out now is the practical details, come on guys >> > shall we run collectively for the Branson prize and solve the world's >> > energy problems at the same time? :) >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> To: "vortex-l" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:41 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize >> >> >> >> >> >> > Thomas Malloy suggested "algae ponds in the southwest desert". >> >> > >> >> > I suggest floating filters-sieves as algae ponds on streams, rivers, >> > and lakes, >> >> > and Blanton's swimming pool, where the water passes through and the >> > algae >> >> > are contained in them for harvesting for dumping into abandoned coal >> > mines for sequestering. >> >> > >> >> > Thomas Malloy's leaky canoe comes to mind as a demonstration. :-) >> >> > >> >> > Fred >> > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 05:39:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EDcv5a003825; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:38:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EDctN8003798; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:38:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:38:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c7503d$74af4860$0c027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:38:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C7500B.2918C520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]:Re: The $25 Million Branson.. Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C7500B.2918C520 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002B_01C7500B.2918C520" ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C7500B.2918C520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Many major resources and plant facilities already exist in the USA.. Coal fired power plants Water filtration plants Wastewater treatment plants A single huge wastewater treatment plant alone is the opposite of an = algae factory by design. Change the process and the plant becomes an = energy transfer reservoir. The primary purpose of removing solids and = disinfecting the water remains. Won't happen.. WHY? Because the mentality must first change and it won't = happen in this generation because of the underlying inertia of public = leadership and an intrinsic objection to anything other than habit. the = internet may force the next generation of politico and municipal = servant( bureaucrat) into morphing toward a sense of responsibility to = citizens but only by having a free internet. What we should be on guard over is the subtle encroachment of big Guv'mt = into the internet under the gusie of " protecting" the public from the = harm. Google video is forcing a response by Gov'mts to act because they = are being exposed. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C7500B.2918C520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Many major resources and plant facilities already exist in the = USA..
 
Coal fired power plants
Water filtration plants
Wastewater treatment plants
 
A single huge wastewater treatment plant alone is the opposite of = an algae=20 factory by design. Change the process and the plant becomes an energy = transfer=20 reservoir. The primary purpose of removing solids and disinfecting the = water=20 remains.
 
Won't happen.. WHY? Because the mentality must first change and it = won't=20 happen in this generation because of the underlying inertia of public = leadership=20 and an intrinsic objection to anything other than habit. the = internet may=20 force the next generation of politico and municipal servant( bureaucrat) = into=20 morphing toward a sense of responsibility to citizens but only by having = a free=20 internet.
 
What we should be on guard over is the subtle encroachment of big = Guv'mt=20 into the internet under the gusie of " protecting" the public from the = harm.=20 Google video is forcing a response by Gov'mts to act because they are = being=20 exposed.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C7500B.2918C520-- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C7500B.2918C520 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002901c7503d$737f53e0$0c027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C7500B.2918C520-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 07:01:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EF1FPk032647; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:01:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EF1DC5032625; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:01:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:01:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D32435.7080408@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:01:09 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU References: <16381940.1171419879472.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <16381940.1171419879472.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>> Somewhat off topic, but see: >>> >>> http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/teraflops.htm?iid=newstab+supercomputing >>> >>> >> I wonder what they charge for it? > > It is NFS (Not For Sale). It is just a prototype device. It does not > do any useful computation, but it does useless work at > record-breaking speed. (Which, come to think of it, is how you might > describe Windows.) This one was designed to test the new "mesh" > interconnections between the cores. This interconnection scheme can > be scale up to thousands of cores, apparently. Physically, a mesh scales arbitrarily, so hardware designers love them. In terms of software algorithms which use mesh communication, however, the scaling is horrible. Traffic density at the middle of the mesh goes up in direct (polynomial) relationship with the number of nodes so you can't scale very far before the central links are saturated. To break the bottleneck you need to add "long lines" so distant nodes can communicate and at that point it's not a simple mesh anymore. The diameter is also pretty bad compared to fancier architectures. (Of course, this is the flip side of the link saturation problem, as sending a message along paths with many hops uses a lot of interconnect resources.) Adding dimensions to the mesh improves things. Wrapping around the ends, to turn the mesh into a hypertorus, improves things quite a lot but it requires connections from opposite sides of the mesh. That's how BlueGene is architected, by the way. > They are still working > on the memory, which is some secret new configuration. See: > > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37572 > > They figure it will be available in a practical version in about 5 > years. > > Japanese researchers last year demonstrated a 512-core math > coprocessor that may achieve 2-PFlops next year. See: > > http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/11/06/japan_512-core_co-pro/ > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 07:04:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EF49gt001713; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:04:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EF47Ud001678; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:04:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:04:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D324E4.9050802@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:04:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus References: <45C78A0E.8020108@pobox.com> <45C78C3F.3010109@pobox.com> <0ae401c7496a$413c9980$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to John Berry's message of Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +1300: > Hi, > [snip] >> That's how many electrostatic machines work such as the Wimshurst. >> >> There are 3 different things, voltage, field strength and charge imbalance, >> in this case the Voltage goes up, however the field strength goes down >> (though is still considerable and covers more area) and the charge imbalance >> obviously remains the same. >> >> It is also possible to increase the electric field density without changing >> the voltage or net charge imbalance by use of a point. > [snip] > If the charge remains constant while the plates are being pulled apart, and the > capacitance if inversely proportional to the separation distance, then the > voltage should be proportional to the separation distance, and consequently the > field strength (Voltage / distance) should be constant. It is, as long as the separation between the plates is much smaller than the diameter of the plates. Field near a point falls off as 1/r^2. Field near a wire falls off as 1/r. Field near a flat plat falls off as 1 (i.e., it doesn't fall off). > > However it's afternoon, and I may I have goofed once again. :( > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 07:20:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EFK6Ut013792; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:20:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EFK1qe013762; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:20:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:20:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070214101842.036a5448@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:19:44 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: References: <410-22007231494118185@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2703703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2703703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >Fortunately, I no longer own said aglae hole. I have moved up in the >world to the land of $10k prostitutes: And those are $10k middle aged prostitutes, no less. - Jed --=====================_2703703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

Fortunately, I no longer own said aglae hole.  I have moved up in the
world to the land of $10k prostitutes:

And those are $10k middle aged prostitutes, no less.

- Jed
--=====================_2703703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 10:01:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EI1IkI019801; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:01:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EI1GL2019780; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:01:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:01:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D34E68.70009@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:01:12 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU References: <16381940.1171419879472.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45D32435.7080408@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45D32435.7080408@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6JvcXB.A.A1E.s500FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >>>> Somewhat off topic, but see: >>>> >>>> http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/teraflops.htm?iid=newstab+supercomputing >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> I wonder what they charge for it? >> >> It is NFS (Not For Sale). It is just a prototype device. It does not >> do any useful computation, but it does useless work at >> record-breaking speed. (Which, come to think of it, is how you might >> describe Windows.) This one was designed to test the new "mesh" >> interconnections between the cores. This interconnection scheme can >> be scale up to thousands of cores, apparently. > > Physically, a mesh scales arbitrarily, so hardware designers love them. > > In terms of software algorithms which use mesh communication, however, > the scaling is horrible. Traffic density at the middle of the mesh goes > up in direct (polynomial) relationship with the number of nodes so you > can't scale very far before the central links are saturated. This is something you can _see_ in action. Just drive along Interstate 80 near Chicago and look at all the trucks -- and look at the license plates, and see how many are local. Very few. The United States is mesh connected, and there's a bit of a choke point just south of the Great Lakes where all traffic between New England and the western states must choose among a relative handful of reasonably direct routes. If we tried to double the size of the country in both dimensions (NS and EW), while keeping the same sort of distribution network and the same population density everywhere (and extending that into the newly annexed regions), the highway system in the middle would most likely jam up completely. (For this exercise, assume we could magically turn the adjacent oceans into dry land. If we extended everything over the "new territories" with unchanged densities, we'd have four times the area, and we'd consequently quadruple the population, and if we kept the same highly nonlocal distribution patterns, truck traffic in the middle of the country would also roughly quadruple.) > To break > the bottleneck you need to add "long lines" so distant nodes can > communicate and at that point it's not a simple mesh anymore. > > The diameter is also pretty bad compared to fancier architectures. (Of > course, this is the flip side of the link saturation problem, as sending > a message along paths with many hops uses a lot of interconnect resources.) > > Adding dimensions to the mesh improves things. Wrapping around the > ends, to turn the mesh into a hypertorus, improves things quite a lot > but it requires connections from opposite sides of the mesh. That's how > BlueGene is architected, by the way. > > >> They are still working >> on the memory, which is some secret new configuration. See: >> >> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37572 >> >> They figure it will be available in a practical version in about 5 >> years. >> >> Japanese researchers last year demonstrated a 512-core math >> coprocessor that may achieve 2-PFlops next year. See: >> >> http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/11/06/japan_512-core_co-pro/ >> >> - Jed >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 10:12:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EICqF7005476; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:12:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EIColq005457; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:12:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:12:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03b301c75063$705a77f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:10:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1EICiKq005396 Resent-Message-ID: <4J-Vj.A.HVB.iE10FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: COP cop Status: RO X-Status: FWIW here is a half baked idea I already talked about privately with some people here and elsewhere, with mixed feedback. Cold fusion, bubble fusion and new energy at large would undoubtedly benefit from any measure helping the valid claims to emerge out of the erroneous ones(*). Such a useful measure IMHO would be a universally recognized reference lab for energy efficiency measurements, manned by highly skilled people collectively competent in _all_ types of energy measurements and calculations, more so than any individual experimenter can be expected to be. Such a "COP cop" would host the experimenters and their experiments for as long as poor reproducibility would make it necessary, and would verify the claims without any preconceived idea. It would use appropriate and rigorous protocols, with the help and participation of the experimenters and the skeptics alike to guarantee objectivity. Ideally it would be publicly funded, by the UN maybe since it would be of interest to mankind at large. Totally utopic, or workable with a bit more baking? Your thoughts welcome. -- Michel (*) More expressive terms may come to mind, pick yours among the following picturesque collection (obtained from an online dictionary by clicking "synonyms" on successive words, starting from "hogwash") which I found so hilarious once put together that I simply couldn't resist sharing it with the group, my apologies for such childishness and for any omission: apple souce; balderdash; baloney; bilge; bilgewater; blah; bosh; bosh; bull; bullshit; buncombe; bunk; bunkum; caput mortuum (???); cheeseparings; clinker; crap; dandruff; dishwater; ditchwater; dogshit; draff; exuviae; fandangle; fecula; fiddle-faddle; fiddlesticks; flubdub; flummery; fur; furfur; gaff; garbage; gibberish; glop; guff; hogwash; hooey; horseshit; humbug; jabberwocky; kitchen stuff; malarkey; moonshine; morphea; muck; nonsense; off scum; offscourings; outscourings; piffle; pig swill; pig's wash; pigwash; poppycock; punk; residuum; rinsings; rot; rubbish; scurf; scurfiness; shit; shucks; slab; slop; slops; sprue; stuff; stuff and nonsense; sweepings; swill; swillings; taradiddle; tartar; tomfoolery; tommy rot; tosh; trash; twaddle; useless refuse; wash; wash dish water From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:13:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EJDWUl029592; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:13:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EJDUOn029577; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:13:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:13:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=vXYPXafP32HbmvCnb+XwkMztImNBRhPez9AYAWyJoCQ9yLqz+cYj1VMIjK8O/31D3mRuhcMy1MSW6Yo+OJ8xWUupILtLkBmnjmIjAfY3MfeC2e6RAkZpQx5EQOMvICSNUJP+BQTPG8JfrwUqrzIudxOBtgo9Q+vG8Fxf+vG2r6U=; X-YMail-OSG: hW8dlG8VM1nLryY6TJXHDuWjPwZhIxosROfEn6SgPOepunmpW.Pzh7xENDwtpQSeM.0fTojmC8jjOO5XVa8XqXLR7TJW1sHDUTLqavR1DE06NoasTmziP5kSEZW9uO7WGWlZBL8pxi6wDzg- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <02d501c75012$f2dc3660$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <614639.71313.qm@web32809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Michel Jullian wrote: > Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor > C=epsilon*A/d > > so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v = > epsilon*A * v/d > > so v/d is constant too. > > Michel A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using this formula using English units for d and A. It does not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the formula to be valid. HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:14:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EJE7qZ029816; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:14:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EJE609029798; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:14:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:14:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mzK7wFHwG1gEr7Bav7zMqHn+NWuDBQRBup+0HjYb7Cyfmr8X3FQO4TDTk/vYYpNhJ/0qqjxv272RfO0rjIm34yup2pg9ciD6p6Lk0kGzuC238tSOCfA6M4oTgObeSjKBcnzFWFthkscInl7tbr+9ZrDfMaAd7bBy0MonpIIgRFU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:14:03 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Intel 80-core tera-flop CPU In-Reply-To: <45D34E68.70009@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <16381940.1171419879472.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45D32435.7080408@pobox.com> <45D34E68.70009@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/14/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > The United States is mesh connected, and there's a bit of a choke point > just south of the Great Lakes where all traffic between New England and > the western states must choose among a relative handful of reasonably > direct routes. The planned NAFTA superhighway system will relieve some of this. http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_4218.shtml Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:28:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EJRral003446; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:27:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EJRpeq003425; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:27:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:27:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070214134706.036857c8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:27:00 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop In-Reply-To: <03b301c75063$705a77f0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <03b301c75063$705a77f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17541234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17541234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michel Jullian wrote: >Cold fusion, bubble fusion and new energy at large would undoubtedly >benefit from any measure helping the valid claims to emerge out of >the erroneous ones(*). It is hard to imagine claims more valid than the ones already published. >Such a useful measure IMHO would be a universally recognized >reference lab . . . There is no such thing as a universally recognized lab. Researchers at many of the world's best laboratories, such as Los Alamos, China Lake and Mitsubishi, published data proving that cold fusion is real. Unfortunately this data did not persuade many people. Most people have not looked at the data, and the hard-core skeptics who reject it will not be convinced by anything less than a commercially successful cold fusion powered device. >for energy efficiency measurements, manned by highly skilled people >collectively competent in _all_ types of energy measurements and >calculations, more so than any individual experimenter can be expected to be. As they said in ancient Rome, Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who shall guard the guards?) I do not think any researcher in the world is qualified to second-guess people such as Mike McKubre, John Bockris, Edmund Storms, Melvin Miles, Richard Oriani, Robert Huggins, or for that matter Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons. These people are the best of the best. They are world class experts who literally wrote the textbooks on modern electrochemistry. If a self-appointed group of experts is not able to produce excess heat, that only proves they are not experts. It does not cast doubt on experiments replicated by people such as McKubre or Bockris. Nothing can cast doubt on these results; they are real by definition. In science "replicated" means "real." There is no other standard. You cannot go on doubting or questioning experimental results forever. You have to draw the line somewhere. When a result has been measured 5 or 10 times at high s/n ratios, I say it is time to accept it, and move on. To argue with results that has been replicated hundreds of times is madness. When you do this, you abandon the scientific method. No fact can ever be established, and no debate ever settled. >Such a "COP cop" would host the experimenters and their experiments >for as long as poor reproducibility would make it necessary, and >would verify the claims without any preconceived idea. The claims are already verified. The only thing this lab would verify would be the skill of the researchers trying to replicate, as I said. However, if anyone wants to open a lab to do CF experiments, I would support them. There is plenty of work to be done, especially in improving reproducibility, as noted. Unfortunately, there is no money to support such a lab. > It would use appropriate and rigorous protocols, with the help and > participation of the experimenters and the skeptics alike to > guarantee objectivity. "Skeptics" have proven themselves incapable of objectivity. Anyone who has read the cold fusion literature carefully and is not convinced not objective, not a scientist, and not rational. (At least, not with regard to this subject.) That is like studying physics and doubting Newton's laws, or studying biology and not being convinced that evolution occurred. To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century. Of course there many badly done or invalid experiments in the literature, but an expert can identify them without Official Approval or Guidance from a COP cop. Facts are facts. There is no rational basis to doubt that cold fusion exists. The only people qualified to judge the experiments, replicate them, or improve on them are people who understand how calorimeters and thermodynamics work. The skeptics do not understand these issues, so they disqualify themselves. I suggest you ignore them. - Jed --=====================_17541234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michel Jullian wrote:

Cold fusion, bubble fusion and new energy at large would undoubtedly benefit from any measure helping the valid claims to emerge out of the erroneous ones(*).

It is hard to imagine claims more valid than the ones already published.


Such a useful measure IMHO would be a universally recognized reference lab . . .

There is no such thing as a universally recognized lab. Researchers at many of the world's best laboratories, such as Los Alamos, China Lake and Mitsubishi, published data proving that cold fusion is real. Unfortunately this data did not persuade many people. Most people have not looked at the data, and the hard-core skeptics who reject it will not be convinced by anything less than a commercially successful cold fusion powered device.


for energy efficiency measurements, manned by highly skilled people collectively competent in _all_ types of energy measurements and calculations, more so than any individual experimenter can be expected to be.

As they said in ancient Rome, Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who shall guard the guards?) I do not think any researcher in the world is qualified to second-guess people such as Mike McKubre, John Bockris, Edmund Storms, Melvin Miles, Richard Oriani, Robert Huggins, or for that matter Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons. These people are the best of the best. They are world class experts who literally wrote the textbooks on modern electrochemistry.

If a self-appointed group of experts is not able to produce excess heat, that only proves they are not experts. It does not cast doubt on experiments replicated by people such as McKubre or Bockris. Nothing can cast doubt on these results; they are real by definition. In science "replicated" means "real." There is no other standard.

You cannot go on doubting or questioning experimental results forever. You have to draw the line somewhere. When a result has been measured 5 or 10 times at high s/n ratios, I say it is time to accept it, and move on. To argue with results that has been replicated hundreds of times is madness. When you do this, you abandon the scientific method. No fact can ever be established, and no debate ever settled.


Such a "COP cop" would host the experimenters and their experiments for as long as poor reproducibility would make it necessary, and would verify the claims without any preconceived idea.

The claims are already verified. The only thing this lab would verify would be the skill of the researchers trying to replicate, as I said. However, if anyone wants to open a lab to do CF experiments, I would support them. There is plenty of work to be done, especially in improving reproducibility, as noted. Unfortunately, there is no money to support such a lab.


 It would use appropriate and rigorous protocols, with the help and participation of the experimenters and the skeptics alike to guarantee objectivity.

"Skeptics" have proven themselves incapable of objectivity. Anyone who has read the cold fusion literature carefully and is not convinced not objective, not a scientist, and not rational. (At least, not with regard to this subject.)  That is like studying physics and doubting Newton's laws, or studying biology and not being convinced that evolution occurred. To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century.

Of course there many badly done or invalid experiments in the literature, but an expert can identify them without Official Approval or Guidance from a COP cop.

Facts are facts. There is no rational basis to doubt that cold fusion exists. The only people qualified to judge the experiments, replicate them, or improve on them are people who understand how calorimeters and thermodynamics work. The skeptics do not understand these issues, so they disqualify themselves. I suggest you ignore them.

- Jed
--=====================_17541234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 12:23:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EKMn7b011526; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:22:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EKMlCK011495; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:22:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:22:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:19:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070214134706.036857c8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_sSR2wYs2QT4p+07ZtGstkg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1iawZD.A.izC.W-20FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_sSR2wYs2QT4p+07ZtGstkg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jed Rothwell wrote: "Skeptics" have proven themselves incapable of objectivity. Anyone who has read the cold fusion literature carefully and is not convinced not objective, not a scientist, and not rational. (At least, not with regard to this subject.) That is like studying physics and doubting Newton's laws, or studying biology and not being convinced that evolution occurred. To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century. This is a spurious argument. There is a difference between a measure of change and the "laws" or "theory" or whatever which is purported to be the best explanation of the change. It is far more important to have an experienced technician who can build a good apparatus and make decent measurements. Harry --Boundary_(ID_sSR2wYs2QT4p+07ZtGstkg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: COP cop Jed Rothwell wrote:



"Skeptics" have proven themselves incapable of objectivity. Anyone who has read the cold fusion literature carefully and is not convinced not objective, not a scientist, and not rational. (At least, not with regard to this subject.)  That is like studying physics and doubting Newton's laws, or studying biology and not being convinced that evolution occurred. To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century.

This is a spurious argument.
There is a difference between a measure of change and the "laws" or "theory"
or whatever which is purported to be the best explanation of the change.

It is far more important to have an experienced technician who can build
a good apparatus and make decent measurements.

Harry --Boundary_(ID_sSR2wYs2QT4p+07ZtGstkg)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 12:52:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EKqI4r031514; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:52:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EKqHHM031497; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:52:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070214153637.03652cd8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:52:08 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070214134706.036857c8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_22648328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_22648328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and >thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century. > >This is a spurious argument. >There is a difference between a measure of change and the "laws" or "theory" >or whatever which is purported to be the best explanation of the change. Many skeptical arguments boil down to an assertion that calorimeters do not work. To be specific, skeptics claim that calorimeters cannot be trusted to with 10% or 30%, or 60% -- or whatever percent of excess heat is reported, on what you might call a sliding scale (or moving goalpost). If the experiment lasts a month, they claim that no calorimeter can be stable that long, even though calibrations show that the instrument is stable. Then, when an experiment produces heat after a week they suddenly realize that no calorimeter is stable for a week. These people sincerely believe this kind of nonsense, and in doing so they reject the basis of a large part of chemistry and physics. They might as well claim that no mass spectrometer can reliably measure the difference between iron and gold. >It is far more important to have an experienced technician who can build >a good apparatus and make decent measurements. The NHE program had superb technicians and the best equipment money can buy. Their measurements were correct to more decimal places than necessary. But the program failed miserably because the people working there were not electrochemists or materials experts, they did not read the literature, and they did not know how to interpret their own results. For example, they did not realize what was coating their cathodes, or that effect the coating had. As McKubre pointed out, they kept rediscovering and reporting phenomena that were described in electrochemistry textbooks decades ago ago. I am no expert, but I knew more about the cold fusion literature, and what other researchers had been done previously, than the NHE researchers did. Experienced technicians can contribute much to a good research program, but technical ability by itself is not enough. You must also have deep knowledge of the science, and experience. - Jed --=====================_22648328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Harry Veeder wrote:

To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century.

This is a spurious argument.
There is a difference between a measure of change and the "laws" or "theory"
or whatever which is purported to be the best explanation of the change.

Many skeptical arguments boil down to an assertion that calorimeters do not work. To be specific, skeptics claim that calorimeters cannot be trusted to with 10% or 30%, or 60% -- or whatever percent of excess heat is reported, on what you might call a sliding scale (or moving goalpost). If the experiment lasts a month, they claim that no calorimeter can be stable that long, even though calibrations show that the instrument is stable. Then, when an experiment produces heat after a week they suddenly realize that no calorimeter is stable for a week. These people sincerely believe this kind of nonsense, and in doing so they reject the basis of a large part of chemistry and physics. They might as well claim that no mass spectrometer can reliably measure the difference between iron and gold.


It is far more important to have an experienced technician who can build
a good apparatus and make decent measurements.

The NHE program had superb technicians and the best equipment money can buy. Their measurements were correct to more decimal places than necessary. But the program failed miserably because the people working there were not electrochemists or materials experts, they did not read the literature, and they did not know how to interpret their own results. For example, they did not realize what was coating their cathodes, or that effect the coating had. As McKubre pointed out, they kept rediscovering and reporting phenomena that were described in electrochemistry textbooks decades ago ago. I am no expert, but I knew more about the cold fusion literature, and what other researchers had been done previously, than the NHE researchers did.

Experienced technicians can contribute much to a good research program, but technical ability by itself is not enough. You must also have deep knowledge of the science, and experience.

- Jed
--=====================_22648328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 13:53:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ELqnmi002658; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:52:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ELqmfu002636; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:52:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:52:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:49:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070214153637.03652cd8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_/q56BvAS05jg3CIYvi3dfw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_/q56BvAS05jg3CIYvi3dfw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Obviously Jed I do not mean a generic technician. The technician must be good at calorimetry, and work with electrochemical cells etc... but this is not enough. A great technician is one who views his work as more than just a job to pay off the bills. They have a passion for what they do. For them it is an art, a craft and a science. Sure the people you mention are experts in the relevant science, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best technicians around. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century. This is a spurious argument. There is a difference between a measure of change and the "laws" or "theory" or whatever which is purported to be the best explanation of the change. Many skeptical arguments boil down to an assertion that calorimeters do not work. To be specific, skeptics claim that calorimeters cannot be trusted to with 10% or 30%, or 60% -- or whatever percent of excess heat is reported, on what you might call a sliding scale (or moving goalpost). If the experiment lasts a month, they claim that no calorimeter can be stable that long, even though calibrations show that the instrument is stable. Then, when an experiment produces heat after a week they suddenly realize that no calorimeter is stable for a week. These people sincerely believe this kind of nonsense, and in doing so they reject the basis of a large part of chemistry and physics. They might as well claim that no mass spectrometer can reliably measure the difference between iron and gold. It is far more important to have an experienced technician who can build a good apparatus and make decent measurements. The NHE program had superb technicians and the best equipment money can buy. Their measurements were correct to more decimal places than necessary. But the program failed miserably because the people working there were not electrochemists or materials experts, they did not read the literature, and they did not know how to interpret their own results. For example, they did not realize what was coating their cathodes, or that effect the coating had. As McKubre pointed out, they kept rediscovering and reporting phenomena that were described in electrochemistry textbooks decades ago ago. I am no expert, but I knew more about the cold fusion literature, and what other researchers had been done previously, than the NHE researchers did. Experienced technicians can contribute much to a good research program, but technical ability by itself is not enough. You must also have deep knowledge of the science, and experience. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_/q56BvAS05jg3CIYvi3dfw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: COP cop Obviously Jed I do not mean a generic technician.
The technician must be good at calorimetry,
and work with electrochemical cells etc...
but this is not enough.

A great technician is one who views his work as
more than just a job to pay off the bills.
They have a passion for what they do. For
them it is an art, a craft and a science.

Sure the people you mention are experts in the
relevant science, but that doesn't necessarily
make them the best technicians around.

Harry




Jed Rothwell wrote:

Harry Veeder wrote:

To reject cold fusion you must first reject chemistry and thermodynamics going back to the mid-19th century.

This is a spurious argument.
There is a difference between a measure of change and the "laws" or "theory"
or whatever which is purported to be the best explanation of the change.

Many skeptical arguments boil down to an assertion that calorimeters do not work. To be specific, skeptics claim that calorimeters cannot be trusted to with 10% or 30%, or 60% -- or whatever percent of excess heat is reported, on what you might call a sliding scale (or moving goalpost). If the experiment lasts a month, they claim that no calorimeter can be stable that long, even though calibrations show that the instrument is stable. Then, when an experiment produces heat after a week they suddenly realize that no calorimeter is stable for a week. These people sincerely believe this kind of nonsense, and in doing so they reject the basis of a large part of chemistry and physics. They might as well claim that no mass spectrometer can reliably measure the difference between iron and gold.


It is far more important to have an experienced technician who can build
a good apparatus and make decent measurements.

The NHE program had superb technicians and the best equipment money can buy. Their measurements were correct to more decimal places than necessary. But the program failed miserably because the people working there were not electrochemists or materials experts, they did not read the literature, and they did not know how to interpret their own results. For example, they did not realize what was coating their cathodes, or that effect the coating had. As McKubre pointed out, they kept rediscovering and reporting phenomena that were described in electrochemistry textbooks decades ago ago. I am no expert, but I knew more about the cold fusion literature, and what other researchers had been done previously, than the NHE researchers did.

Experienced technicians can contribute much to a good research program, but technical ability by itself is not enough. You must also have deep knowledge of the science, and experience.

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_/q56BvAS05jg3CIYvi3dfw)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 14:31:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EMVYKJ011013; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:31:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EMVVwk010992; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:31:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:31:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:31:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7h27t2p602vkgg89g1kt7jtjolb3592rcf@4ax.com> References: <410-220072314123952589@earthlink.net> <033c01c75038$8665d600$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <033c01c75038$8665d600$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:31:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1EMVSNm010970 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:03:05 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Sure Fred I am not ignoring this wonderful emission lowering scheme, but we also need a solution to recapture what's already been dumped into the atmosphere, that's the challenge. However I have no doubt some inspiration can be gotten from this scheme, e.g. bubbling to increase CO2 dissolution. Spraying the phytoplancton laden seawater could achieve the same result maybe? > >Michel [snip] There are really only a few forms in which carbon can be sequestered. As organic compounds, or as pure carbon, or as carbonates. Carbonates can only displace silicates without messing up the environment. Removing all the CO2 would then mean that we would need to produce a great deal of silicon, from silicates, not from SiO2 (the anions in the silicates are needed to combine with the CO2 to form carbonates). Solar cells as a use for the Silicon perhaps? Pure carbon in the form of Fullerenes, graphene and carbon tube nano-tech is a possibility, though this would probably only consume a small quantity. That leaves organic compounds, i.e. create petroleum/coal and store it underground...and lo and behold we have reached the same point our predecessors did a 100000 years ago (long enough to have left no records ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 14:38:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EMc4lU022814; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:38:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EMc3CB022791; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:38:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:38:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:37:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-220072314123952589@earthlink.net> <033c01c75038$8665d600$3800a8c0@zothan> <7h27t2p602vkgg89g1kt7jtjolb3592rcf@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <7h27t2p602vkgg89g1kt7jtjolb3592rcf@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:37:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1EMbx4D022728 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:31:29 +1100: Hi, [snip] >of silicon, from silicates, not from SiO2 (the anions in the silicates are Oops, that should be cations. >needed to combine with the CO2 to form carbonates). Solar cells as a use for the >Silicon perhaps? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 14:42:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EMgJ5A013856; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:42:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EMgI03013841; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:42:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:42:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=c5gLc6D8IWyNuZA+gqQWUkKcdEweazwwDvq3og+M6yymjwNZNxGfg66Dgnt4iKgnETcrO5eVJqiir9XWPTdHYVahBcmJXZ7mbF0D3PdMI/mRjWucF9c3xTu8q93jRXxlof6G/jifOfvsUNdzoGQS7Z99VoV7hzLirHBv+Kn2S1Y= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:42:17 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus In-Reply-To: <614639.71313.qm@web32809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_59810_31020404.1171492937374" References: <02d501c75012$f2dc3660$3800a8c0@zothan> <614639.71313.qm@web32809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_59810_31020404.1171492937374 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Robin is not right. A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and charge imbalance will have the same net electric field. But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric field density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density. In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite charge, the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction elsewhere (as obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the net field) This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field density in that area, not the net field of course. I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software? http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html wrote: > > > --- Michel Jullian wrote: > > > Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor > > C=epsilon*A/d > > > > so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v = > > epsilon*A * v/d > > > > so v/d is constant too. > > > > Michel > A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using > this formula using English units for d and A. It does > not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm > or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the > formula to be valid. > HDN > > Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal > Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ > > ------=_Part_59810_31020404.1171492937374 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Robin is not right.

A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and charge imbalance will have the same net electric field.

But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric field density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density.

In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite charge, the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction elsewhere (as obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the net field)

This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field density in that area, not the net field of course.

I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software?
http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html <here is some java stuff...


On 2/15/07, Harvey Norris <harvich@yahoo.com > wrote:

--- Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com > wrote:

> Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor
> C=epsilon*A/d
>
> so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v =
> epsilon*A  * v/d
>
> so v/d is constant too.
>
> Michel
A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using
this formula using English units for d and A.  It does
not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm
or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the
formula to be valid.
HDN

Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/


------=_Part_59810_31020404.1171492937374-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 14:49:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EMn8V5015928; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:49:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EMn6XO015910; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:49:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:49:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TBTx/r7cnuH9bLq8AnfxAqSZ8g8S4O62ZCuEcCgGTj/jGaeJbVBLPAm5ytmSpDZxG+bBrxx0G37MtfxYJdwgkrvMBtGcJG9LI1IJaIZ/1aKUUIx5zwR37G+Tq2XzY3Tz4lY4EbpDDdWIhxKn4xNiJvtKVHvTdyyvC7ag1lXKTrg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:49:05 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_59846_23206358.1171493345185" References: <02d501c75012$f2dc3660$3800a8c0@zothan> <614639.71313.qm@web32809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_59846_23206358.1171493345185 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yup, that was meant to be "I'm not wrong about this." I was changing it from "I don't think I'm wrong about this", decided I was certain so I removed the uncertainty but by doing so reversed it's meaning. On 2/15/07, John Berry wrote: > > Robin is not right. > > A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and > charge imbalance will have the same net electric field. > > But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the > charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric field > density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density. > > In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite > charge, the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction > elsewhere (as obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the > net field) > > This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field > density in that area, not the net field of course. > > I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software? > http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html > > On 2/15/07, Harvey Norris wrote: > > > > > > --- Michel Jullian wrote: > > > > > Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor > > > C=epsilon*A/d > > > > > > so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v = > > > epsilon*A * v/d > > > > > > so v/d is constant too. > > > > > > Michel > > A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using > > this formula using English units for d and A. It does > > not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm > > or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the > > formula to be valid. > > HDN > > > > Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal > > Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ > > > > > ------=_Part_59846_23206358.1171493345185 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yup, that was meant to be "I'm not wrong about this."

I was changing it from "I don't think I'm wrong about this", decided I was certain so I removed the uncertainty but by doing so reversed it's meaning.

On 2/15/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
Robin is not right.

A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and charge imbalance will have the same net electric field.

But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric field density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density.

In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite charge, the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction elsewhere (as obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the net field)

This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field density in that area, not the net field of course.

I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software?
http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html <here is some java stuff...



On 2/15/07, Harvey Norris <harvich@yahoo.com > wrote:

--- Michel Jullian < mj@exbang.com > wrote:

> Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor
> C=epsilon*A/d
>
> so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v =
> epsilon*A  * v/d
>
> so v/d is constant too.
>
> Michel
A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using
this formula using English units for d and A.  It does
not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm
or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the
formula to be valid.
HDN

Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/



------=_Part_59846_23206358.1171493345185-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 15:04:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1EN4XXE023074; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:04:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1EN4Vgs023052; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:04:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:04:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CaWtFQLZCrSGl8AUJTqJJQT7CyZvRNfb+1rOuofZOInaW5DEH9M6e+u6o1xsruXZwY/SfOnFvHc49vBIlHiQ2rGxvivoKVOYnhag3sUEeQ9uKtL9elqWvIrUla6e8IT32WTrg4tRTwMNQVy59pzL6enmCFqJEcD5cecUnN+TySI= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:04:27 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <7h27t2p602vkgg89g1kt7jtjolb3592rcf@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-220072314123952589@earthlink.net> <033c01c75038$8665d600$3800a8c0@zothan> <7h27t2p602vkgg89g1kt7jtjolb3592rcf@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/14/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > There are really only a few forms in which carbon can be sequestered. As organic > compounds, or as pure carbon, or as carbonates. I, and the women I know, would like to see C sequestered as diamonds. However, deBeers disagrees. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 15:37:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ENb9PN010082; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:37:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ENb70L010061; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:37:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:37:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Es4nVaUAthUQ88UEjMflelluivzwIi7rU/DKmgAPFi1p0hC6J9lMKX7vJkui1X9sTpj2eByzMH0ijm5J+TsWw15RqHVp80E2sfpHVL/d1R/+Jt8y+ZIDod9B0PkMIOv3F8GwLcraogZLR7MJXAPTnHnOcD1IyqMyv8i7g8WfZj4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:37:05 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <410-22007221311544063@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_60250_13624089.1171496225622" References: <410-22007221311544063@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_60250_13624089.1171496225622 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/14/07, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Undoing it in less than 300 years is going to be costly. > > Fred > I disagree. see: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/04/020412080812.htm Cost of the entire process is equivalent to about 20 cents per gallon of gasoline. So for 40c per Gallon of gasoline you could be reversing the CO2 levels, as there are more and more cars that means that it would take less time to reverse. 40c per gallon to know you are doing a good thing, just look at the taxes already on petrol/gasoline. Along with planting more trees and green transport options (in which case either a 20c charge per equivalent energy equivalent making it even cheaper) Actually if the US just put all the money it has spent on holding a human BBQ in Iraq in an effort to increase human misery and liberate more oil for the environment, and instead put it into cleaning up the co2 levels how much co2 could be scrubbed at that cost? Ok, Ok I'll get figures. $622 Billion so far (asking for far more of course) at .20c per gallon to clean up that's 1,833,021,200,000 gallons of gasoline reversed. At the usage of 146 Billion gallons used a year according to how stuff works.com, that's 12.5 years of oil usage they could have reversed. And the average fuel tax in the US is 22c a Gallon according to Wikipedia, if that was used to reverse CO2 it would slowly go backwards. You can purchase carbon credits for $23 AU ($18.01US) per carbon credit from http://www.carbonplanet.com (one tonne of co2), where as the above method is $14.7USD per tonne. Either way this isn't really expensive, an increase of 10-20% (counting a rate of $2.20 per gallon approx average) is enough to fix the problem, what we have is a 'people getting off their ass to fix the problem' problem. Compare that with losing some expensive realistate and extinction of species. ------=_Part_60250_13624089.1171496225622 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/14/07, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net> wrote:

Undoing it in less than 300 years is going to be costly.
 
Fred
I disagree.

see: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/04/020412080812.htm

Cost of the entire process is equivalent to about 20 cents per gallon of gasoline.

So for 40c per Gallon of gasoline you could be reversing the CO2 levels, as there are more and more cars that means that it would take less time to reverse.

40c per gallon  to know you are doing a good thing, just look at the taxes already on petrol/gasoline.

Along with planting more trees and green transport options (in which case either a 20c charge per equivalent energy equivalent making it even cheaper)

Actually if the US just put all the money it has spent on holding a human BBQ in Iraq in an effort to increase human misery and liberate more oil for the environment, and instead put it into cleaning up the co2 levels how much co2 could be scrubbed at that cost?

Ok, Ok I'll get figures. $622 Billion so far (asking for far more of course) at .20c per gallon to clean up that's 1,833,021,200,000 gallons of gasoline reversed.
At the usage of 146 Billion gallons used a year according to how stuff works.com, that's 12.5 years of oil usage they could have reversed.

And the average fuel tax in the US is 22c a Gallon according to Wikipedia, if that was used to reverse CO2 it would slowly go backwards.

You can purchase carbon credits for $23 AU ($18.01US) per carbon credit from http://www.carbonplanet.com (one tonne of co2), where as the above method is $14.7USD per tonne.

Either way this isn't really expensive, an increase of 10-20% (counting a rate of $2.20 per gallon approx average) is enough to fix the problem, what we have is a 'people getting off their ass to fix the problem' problem.

Compare that with losing some expensive realistate and extinction of species.

------=_Part_60250_13624089.1171496225622-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 17:04:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F14bBg009522; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:04:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F14aC6009507; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:04:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:04:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005801c7509d$43624630$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <410-220072314124755473@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:04:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok, Fred and Michel, I was reading this about waste disposal technology today on the M.I.T.Technology review website http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18183/ and I linked up what the Vorts have been talking about with algae as a means of creation of biofuel etc and the waste disposal technology that I am trying to get our States of Jersey to buy, rather than a huge incinerator http://www.compactpower.co.uk/ . This is a pyrolysis/gasification technology that looks favourite to be a better "Energy from Waste" plant in the future. As an environmentalist, I am pretty much against EFW plants as they act as an antagonist to the best achievable rates of recycling and waste reduction but this system offers the great benefit that it is very modular and thus a system capable of handling 64,000 tonnes per annum uses 16 pyrolysis tubes which could be progressively retired in the future as recycling, waste reduction etc rates increase and the redundant units could then be converted towards other uses such as treatment of clinical waste and the use of biomass as a fuel source. The great thing about pyrolysis is that heating organic material in reduced oxygen creates some hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which can be combusted to fuel the plant, but the majority of the hydrocarbons and organic matter get converted into "spongy" carbon - a charcoal like substance. I imagined a direct feed of algae, fattened on the CO2 emissions of powerplants etc, being pyrolysed into charcoal plus energy. I speculated that the charcoal "foam" that would result from the algal slime would have some industrial value but beyond this I remembered that there is some evidence that charcoal can act a tremendous boost to the fertility of soil by virtue of its ability to hold nutrients in poorer soils (black soil or Terra Preta in South America http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11522955/ ). Carbon sequestration plus energy plus agricultural benefits.This energy would be carbon NEGATIVE... Charcoal is pretty stable in the ground... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 17:06:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F15vR8017564; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:05:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F15qND017550; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:05:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:05:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:05:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8cc7t2luuvugnjl7k57p7dbanasc148mc2@4ax.com> References: <410-220072314123952589@earthlink.net> <033c01c75038$8665d600$3800a8c0@zothan> <7h27t2p602vkgg89g1kt7jtjolb3592rcf@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:05:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1F15nkm017522 Resent-Message-ID: <8wMd4.A.KSE.wH70FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:04:27 -0500: Hi, [snip] >On 2/14/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> There are really only a few forms in which carbon can be sequestered. As organic >> compounds, or as pure carbon, or as carbonates. > >I, and the women I know, would like to see C sequestered as diamonds. >However, deBeers disagrees. Some of it could be, mostly industrial, but there isn't that much call for it (yet), and it is costly to make (both in $ terms and in energy). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 17:23:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F1N5Ae016113; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:23:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F1N3Bv016086; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:23:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:23:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005b01c7509f$d7804b80$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <410-220072314124755473@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:22:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in soils. If the char was created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million! Can anyone do some numbers? Nick Palmer http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 17:26:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F1QIis017406; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:26:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F1QHG1017381; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:26:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:26:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <041b01c750a0$01ec95e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <03b301c75063$705a77f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070214134706.036857c8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:24:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F1QFI5017266 Resent-Message-ID: <7YgWnB.A.aPE.5a70FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop ... > There is no such thing as a universally recognized lab. ... That's the point, one would be needed because none of the existing labs satisfies all the criteria yet, notably: - It should have a pure verification role: no original experiments or devices, nothing to sell, so it wouldn't be a competitor. - It would have to be publicly funded so it wouldn't depend on the claimant's or his competitors' money. Imagine we could have this perfect lab, not just one more lab in town, but a universal reference in COP measurement. Imagine now a new excess energy experiment coming out, with a promisingly high COP (but still not enough for self powering), performed by someone you don't know. Imagine you're a competitor, or an investor, with enough sense not to believe every new OU claim you read about in a paper, even a perfectly convincing well written one. Won't you be happy to let the COP cop do the verification, rather than having to try and duplicate the experiment yourself to find out if it works? Now put yourself in the place of the experimenter putting up a honest OU claim, wouldn't you be happy to have your COP validated by the COP cop? I am not saying such a reference lab can be set up just like that, only that it would be possible, and useful. The US DOE, or better the UN energy department, could set up one. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 17:30:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F1UZla019445; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:30:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F1UYk8019429; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:30:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:30:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:30:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22007221311544063@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:30:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F1UV24019410 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:37:05 +1300: Hi, [snip] >see: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/04/020412080812.htm > >Cost of the entire process is equivalent to about 20 cents per gallon of >gasoline. [snip] I note that they don't mention where the energy is coming from to heat the CaCO3 to split it into CaO and CO2 again. This would need to be derived from either a clean nuclear source (CF) or Solar thermal. Given placement of the collector in a desert, the latter would seem most appropriate, at least until CF matures, however I doubt they included that in their cost estimate. BTW vehicles could probably be fitted with Ca(OH)2 or CaO based scrubbers in the exhaust (analogous to catalytic converters). These could be exchanged at gas stations when filling up. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 17:53:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F1rQMa029059; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:53:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F1rPq1029042; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:53:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:53:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:53:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <02d501c75012$f2dc3660$3800a8c0@zothan> <614639.71313.qm@web32809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:53:18 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F1rNUo028995 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Berry's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:42:17 +1300: Hi, [snip] >Robin is not right. Robin was talking about two flat plates. Granted, they only appear as flat plates when close together. The farther apart they are moved, the more they begin to approximate points. > >A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and >charge imbalance will have the same net electric field. > >But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the >charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric field >density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density. > >In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite charge, >the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction elsewhere (as >obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the net field) > >This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field >density in that area, not the net field of course. > >I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software? >http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html > >On 2/15/07, Harvey Norris wrote: >> >> >> --- Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> > Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor >> > C=epsilon*A/d >> > >> > so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v = >> > epsilon*A * v/d >> > >> > so v/d is constant too. >> > >> > Michel >> A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using >> this formula using English units for d and A. It does >> not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm >> or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the >> formula to be valid. >> HDN >> >> Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal >> Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ >> >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 18:12:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F2C38n010191; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:12:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F2C1d7010156; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:12:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Barker & Barium Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:11:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45C37F2E.5070605@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45C37F2E.5070605@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:11:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F2BwuO010121 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:13:02 -0800: Hi, [snip] >... or possibly, also in a conditioning process enhanced the effects of >the Barker Patents above, as HV may be interacting with the solar >neutrino flux, for instance. [snip] >From memory, the Solar neutrino flux is only about 80 W /m^2, however perhaps by analogy with Bill's (much) earlier tuned antenna post, the device can appear larger than it really is when properly "tuned", thus allowing it to collect more than its "fair" share? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 18:34:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F2YaTf023503; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:34:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F2YY45023481; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:34:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:34:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Barker & Barium Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:34:31 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45C37F2E.5070605@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:34:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F2YWhc023459 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:11:58 +1100: Hi, [snip] >From memory, the Solar neutrino flux is only about 80 W /m^2, however perhaps by Make that a maximum of 40 W /m^2. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 18:38:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F2ckx6014521; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:38:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F2ciuX014510; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:38:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Sr+31g2zyv/kPsD0SIDWhjjDI+CAgsMYVjjFHiDl1/WdaRLQN+VGRzWN3P3dNZdZ; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <4879889.1171507123020.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:38:42 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cd9b97ea5096c47f53c212c4804494399666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian writes: >I am not saying such a reference lab can be set up just like that, only that it would be possible, and useful. The US DOE . . . The US DoE is committed to destroying CF. It lies about its intentions, and performs "reviews" with the express purpose of getting rid of CF altogether. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LENRCANRthedoelies.pdf Putting the DoE in charge of this would be putting the fox in charge of the henhouse! If they found excess heat I am sure they would lie about it, and claim there was no excess heat, just as MIT and the Japanese NHE program did. > . . . or better the UN energy department, could set up one. I know little about the UN, but my impression is that it is a dysfunctional organization overrun by politics, like the DoE. I think it is grave mistake to give any one organzation or one person any special authority to decide about cold fusion, or any other scientific or political controversy. We must have open competition of ideas, or unpopular ideas will be crushed. CF has only survived so far (barely) because Washington does not yet micromanage ALL scientific research. If the DoE or some other organization, or for that matter Scott Little, is set up as a final arbitor of what is true and what is not, I am sure that arbitor will his power to aggrandize himself and attack cold fusion. That is what people always do when they are given an opportunity to attack a highly unpopular idea. You have to realize, the public and the scientific community despise cold fusion. They will do anything within their power to destroy it. It only survives because there are still a few scientists who do not depend on Federal funding for their bread and butter. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 18:58:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F2w61I023134; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:58:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F2w4U3023115; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:58:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:58:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WRfGCq4vteNvW6JLNho/apvggS9O7hfLA9nbp/KvWNDYTtqKGiFSGYHuysXv4skpO4Ki7PpZ39WQhlPf/Dqm7mVj56qI328PWcLjtCFVKb0q3VuZx01sYt+ZEWVetcdjUL9SG+C1C/hNUKp5iufy2kEnHkxdHD3pASzbePeahPU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:58:01 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Voltage versus field, and the electrophorus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_61266_15609494.1171508281316" References: <02d501c75012$f2dc3660$3800a8c0@zothan> <614639.71313.qm@web32809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_61266_15609494.1171508281316 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It applies to plates just the same. On 2/15/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to John Berry's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:42:17 +1300: > Hi, > [snip] > >Robin is not right. > > Robin was talking about two flat plates. Granted, they only appear as flat > plates when close together. The farther apart they are moved, the more > they > begin to approximate points. > > > > >A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and > >charge imbalance will have the same net electric field. > > > >But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the > >charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric > field > >density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density. > > > >In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite > charge, > >the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction elsewhere > (as > >obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the net field) > > > >This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field > >density in that area, not the net field of course. > > > >I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software? > >http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html > > > > >On 2/15/07, Harvey Norris wrote: > >> > >> > >> --- Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> > Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor > >> > C=epsilon*A/d > >> > > >> > so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v = > >> > epsilon*A * v/d > >> > > >> > so v/d is constant too. > >> > > >> > Michel > >> A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using > >> this formula using English units for d and A. It does > >> not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm > >> or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the > >> formula to be valid. > >> HDN > >> > >> Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal > >> Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ > >> > >> > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > > ------=_Part_61266_15609494.1171508281316 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It applies to plates just the same.

On 2/15/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  John Berry's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:42:17 +1300:
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin is not right.

Robin was talking about two flat plates. Granted, they only appear as flat
plates when close together. The farther apart they are moved, the more they
begin to approximate points.

>
>A metal sphere and a metal cone of equal capacity at an equal voltage and
>charge imbalance will have the same net electric field.
>
>But the electric field density at the point of the cone (along with the
>charge imbalance density at that point) is greater than the electric field
>density from the sphere which naturally has an even field density.
>
>In the same way when the sphere is brought near a sphere of opposite charge,
>the charge imbalance increases greatly with an equal reduction elsewhere (as
>obviously the net charge imbalance isn't changing, nor is the net field)
>
>This greater charge density in that area increases the electric field
>density in that area, not the net field of course.
>
>I'm wrong about this, anyone got an electrostatic simulation software?
>http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html <here is some java stuff...
>
>
>On 2/15/07, Harvey Norris <harvich@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> --- Michel Jullian < mj@exbang.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Robin is right, in a parallel plate capacitor
>> > C=epsilon*A/d
>> >
>> > so q (constant here) = C*v = (epsilon*A/d)*v =
>> > epsilon*A  * v/d
>> >
>> > so v/d is constant too.
>> >
>> > Michel
>> A tricky thing here was I thought I remebered using
>> this formula using English units for d and A.  It does
>> not give the correct answer then, metric units of cm
>> or m must be used for A and d dimensions for the
>> formula to be valid.
>> HDN
>>
>> Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal
>> Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/
>>
>>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.


------=_Part_61266_15609494.1171508281316-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 19:36:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F3a3um021369; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:36:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F3ZvlO021310; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:35:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:35:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:35:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <066401c7479c$b3ff45f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <067101c747a2$a0b885f0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <067101c747a2$a0b885f0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:35:54 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F3Zt6P021285 Resent-Message-ID: <671SCD.A.6MF.dU90FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:50:20 +0100: Hi, [snip] >BTW I also have an untried design for an autonomous lifter (designed to take off vertically and hover for a few mn while carrying it's own power supply, would be a world first if it works), if anyone is interested in experimenting it you're welcome. > >Be warned though that it requires thousands of euros worth of batteries (about 5 last time I looked 3 years ago), the rest of the craft costing virtually nothing except time and craftsmanship (a lot of each :). > >No HV power supply design experience required, the HVPS consisting bruteforcely in a series string of about 1200 tiny lithium-polymer batteries :))) [snip] A radioisotope power supply is ideally matched to this application. They can be designed such that energy is extracted by allowing the charged particles to travel "up hill" against a space charge, thus maintaining a high voltage (typically hundreds of kV to MV). The current is dependant upon the amount of isotope employed, and the half-life. The energy density of radioisotopes beats any chemical fuel hands down, so the power supply would be very light weight, and the fuel would last a long time. If a technique can be developed to dynamically alter the half-life of radioisotopes over a wide range, then this is a match made in heaven. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 20:06:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F46aIR018669; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:06:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F46Y8o018656; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:06:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:06:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FvYa18Dcivgg7S+gBzwB2gJk14OXMvl4T5L8XkQu4ipOzh2SyQrpKFkD5H/EJIFygRfk+uPLnpvIwDw2ta7WsKL3SCRq0FNf+ALMEt0JZnRrpiF8GkbqbFaHlREfyXxndnEAH5u2ULbvYb/ngbknDMD8GwHrPTusVIKD1W8Jaks= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:06:33 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-Reply-To: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_61726_7572165.1171512393133" References: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_61726_7572165.1171512393133 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/5/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the paper > so you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high > voltages. > > Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind hypothesis, > for thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been > experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum. Idiot skeptics are the only ones convinced it's only ion wind. Firstly the ion wind has been shown to be insufficient to explain the thrust. (according to NASA's calculations) Secondly JLN has conducted many experiments which put the ion wind hypothesis in very very serious doubt indeed, situations where there is almost no current, no ion wind and yet seemingly still thrust among others where the ion wind is blocked. Also T.T. Brown's own experiments (not talking about the ones in a vacuum) have also shown this not to be the case. Also 3 or 4 people have successfully made a gravity warp cap which is closely related to T.T. Brown's work. But the most convincing evidence that something very very odd is going on here far beyond ion wind are the anomalies, there are anomalies related to time, and blowing distant electronic devices, but far more interesting is the fact that this almost electrostatic device somehow shields the area from the earth magnetic field! A compass will not find the earths magnetic field near this thing, also very very odd is that the high voltage field being output by the flyback which should be saturating the area can not be detected. The reason it doesn't work in a vacuum is obvious, it's the same reason why it works better with the front electrode being positive (positive charges more readily ionize the air), and why a this wire works best, it's because to work the air around the wire must be ionized not because the thrust is ion wind related, but because the field shape required, that is why in the other embodiment the front (generally still positive) electrode is larger. (ion wind does an extremely poor job of explaining the other devices Brown made) Also JLN under this theory tested the effect with a thin wire enclosed in glass and indeed found that despite almost no current flow the thrust existed because the field shape is able to correctly establish it's self. There is no doubt that the lifter version is partly an ion wind device but it is the only embodiment of Brown's uses this effect for a boost and it is very clear it is only a part of the story. But some people do entertain the doubt on their websites, deliberately or > not. > > What convinced me personnally is the fact that experimental thrusts are > equal to what is expected from ion wind theory (the formula I gave earlier > on). So any contribution of other effects is minimal at most. > > Anyway EHD experiments are great fun and easy to do, so by all means > experiment and form your own opinion. > > Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen power > supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and hurt > a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a meat > chopper I was told). Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of burning skin, plus a buzzing. If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. ------=_Part_61726_7572165.1171512393133 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/5/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the paper so you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high voltages.

Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind hypothesis, for thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum.

Idiot skeptics are the only ones convinced it's only ion wind.

Firstly the ion wind has been shown to be insufficient to explain the thrust. (according to NASA's calculations)
Secondly JLN has conducted many experiments which put the ion wind hypothesis in very very serious doubt indeed, situations where there is almost no current, no ion wind and yet seemingly still thrust among others where the ion wind is blocked.

Also T.T. Brown's own experiments (not talking about the ones in a vacuum) have also shown this not to be the case.

Also 3 or 4 people have successfully made a gravity warp cap which is closely related to T.T. Brown's work.

But the most convincing evidence that something very very odd is going on here far beyond ion wind are the anomalies, there are anomalies related to time, and blowing distant electronic devices, but far more interesting is the fact that this almost electrostatic device somehow shields the area from the earth magnetic field!

A compass will not find the earths magnetic field near this thing, also very very odd is that the high voltage field being output by the flyback which should be saturating the area can not be detected.

The reason it doesn't work in a vacuum is obvious, it's the same reason why it works better with the front electrode being positive (positive charges more readily ionize the air), and why a this wire works best, it's because to work the air around the wire must be ionized not because the thrust is ion wind related, but because the field shape required, that is why in the other embodiment the front (generally still positive) electrode is larger. (ion wind does an extremely poor job of explaining the other devices Brown made)

Also JLN under this theory tested the effect with a thin wire enclosed in glass and indeed found that despite almost no current flow the thrust existed because the field shape is able to correctly establish it's self.

There is no doubt that the lifter version is partly an ion wind device but it is the only embodiment of Brown's uses this effect for a boost and it is very clear it is only a part of the story.



 

But some people do entertain the doubt on their websites, deliberately or not.

What convinced me personnally is the fact that experimental thrusts are equal to what is expected from ion wind theory (the formula I gave earlier on). So any contribution of other effects is minimal at most.

Anyway EHD experiments are great fun and easy to do, so by all means experiment and form your own opinion.

Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen power supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and hurt a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a meat chopper I was told).

Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of burning skin, plus a buzzing.
If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating.


------=_Part_61726_7572165.1171512393133-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 21:20:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F5JsGs003368; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:19:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F5JpF4003354; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:19:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:19:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:16:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ttwXi8jvN3IKVFOWZiCDYA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_ttwXi8jvN3IKVFOWZiCDYA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT John Berry wrote: Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of burning skin, plus a buzzing. If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. Is it like grabbing an electric soldiering iron at the hot end? I did that when I was 12, believing it had been unplugged for sometime. ;-) Harry --Boundary_(ID_ttwXi8jvN3IKVFOWZiCDYA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics John Berry wrote:


Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of burning skin, plus a buzzing.
If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating.



Is it like grabbing an electric soldiering iron at the hot end?
I did that when I was 12, believing it had been unplugged
for sometime. ;-)

Harry


--Boundary_(ID_ttwXi8jvN3IKVFOWZiCDYA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 21:57:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F5vJhe030652; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:57:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F5vIJT030627; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:57:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:57:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nsu1FWRm6GoVZf0wTrrB4fK+56M+GjThqEs0+EIB2NDdPh2ZXRWDSsZdTqVdn+FeEIjLsNep56XEhtZ+EwmJVb5ACoweWsALstk5aCIgKuuQ7k5ZPwhX/uEi4x2CCKOHABWGt1CiX5FWIbrZNDjOY1Nj+8qYhmpRVfiBBUWyW1s= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:57:17 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_62142_11246778.1171519037196" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_62142_11246778.1171519037196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, it's just a pin point vaporization and carbonization of skin, the soldering iron will burn and either leave skin hard, or if hotter it will make skin slough off so it's quite different. Obviously if the ma's are too high it is worse and if rectified to DC and maybe a cap to rectify easily deadly. On 2/15/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > > > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of > burning skin, plus a buzzing. > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. > > > > Is it like grabbing an electric soldiering iron at the hot end? > I did that when I was 12, believing it had been unplugged > for sometime. ;-) > > > Harry > > > ------=_Part_62142_11246778.1171519037196 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, it's just a pin point vaporization and carbonization of skin, the soldering iron will burn and either leave skin hard, or if hotter it will make skin slough off so it's quite different.

Obviously if the ma's are too high it is worse and if rectified to DC and maybe a cap to rectify easily deadly.

On 2/15/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
John Berry wrote:


Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of burning skin, plus a buzzing.
If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating.



Is it like grabbing an electric soldiering iron at the hot end?
I did that when I was 12, believing it had been unplugged
for sometime. ;-)

Harry



------=_Part_62142_11246778.1171519037196-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 00:13:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F8DYPr029260; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:13:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F8DXpA029251; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:13:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:13:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <046501c750d8$e6d73510$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:11:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1F8DVoj029227 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > On 2/5/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the paper >> so you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high >> voltages. >> >> Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind hypothesis, >> for thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been >> experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum. > > > Idiot skeptics are the only ones convinced it's only ion wind. > Firstly the ion wind has been shown to be insufficient to explain the > thrust. (according to NASA's calculations) You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself can't you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. Measure more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence of something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind skeptic :) ... >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen power >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and hurt >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a meat >> chopper I was told). > > > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of > burning skin, plus a buzzing. > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high voltages at the kW level, do you? :) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 01:00:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F8xphZ012517; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:59:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F8xpZA012508; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=lXHDIi3NQ7qlu3JikPOpAgP+z9S4o80dGdefyYK5yFfXqxEGkRg/RlmaQBHIiBFfUJEStveNNwoGQYoYcaO2MfmAmCNW9rLe17uvsWa8479CM6oPHjnmRvsz+JHG7ASq77JKr0xQwBq/exO4JHK1LBt79ub8U8NrR95QVBk3ph0= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:59:49 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-Reply-To: <046501c750d8$e6d73510$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_62923_24020881.1171529989729" References: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> <046501c750d8$e6d73510$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <6ihsuD.A.WDD.GEC1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_62923_24020881.1171529989729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/15/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:06 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > > > On 2/5/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the > paper > >> so you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high > >> voltages. > >> > >> Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind > hypothesis, > >> for thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been > >> experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum. > > > > > > Idiot skeptics are the only ones convinced it's only ion wind. > > Firstly the ion wind has been shown to be insufficient to explain the > > thrust. (according to NASA's calculations) > > You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself can't > you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. Measure > more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence of > something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind skeptic :) I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough to take off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, I'm basing the statement on something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A Space Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at the different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule out ion wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially since as I said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work hardly at all. Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to brush it aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just consider the implications of such technology if it can be made effective. In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be something in it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss. Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic in which case what are you doing here? ... > >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen > power > >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and > hurt > >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a > meat > >> chopper I was told). > > > > > > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of > > burning skin, plus a buzzing. > > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. > > The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high voltages > at the kW level, do you? :) No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w flyback that powers a plasma globe. Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or practice. Electrical arc's are rather hot and burn holes into skin, as the nerves are instantly killed it doesn't hurt a whole heap though nerve damage from RF is a real concern but won't happen to and real extent from just the odd encounter with a flyback. ------=_Part_62923_24020881.1171529989729 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/15/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics


> On 2/5/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
>>
>> It won't rise but some of the ions will go round or even through the paper
>> so you'll get some remaining thrust, it's very hard to insulate high
>> voltages.
>>
>> Anyway no one serious in the field still doubts the ion wind hypothesis,
>> for thousands of reasons, not the least of them being that it has been
>> experimentally shown that you get no thrust in vacuum.
>
>
> Idiot skeptics are the only ones convinced it's only ion wind.
> Firstly the ion wind has been shown to be insufficient to explain the
> thrust. (according to NASA's calculations)

You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself can't you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. Measure more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence of something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind skeptic :)

I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough to take off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, I'm basing the statement on something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A Space Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at the different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule out ion wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially since as I said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work hardly at all.

Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to brush it aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just consider the implications of such technology if it can be made effective.
In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be something in it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss.
Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic in which case what are you doing here?

...
>> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen power
>> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and hurt
>> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a meat
>> chopper I was told).
>
>
> Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of
> burning skin, plus a buzzing.
> If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating.

The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high voltages at the kW level, do you?  :)

No,  not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w flyback that powers a plasma globe.

Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or practice.

Electrical arc's are rather hot and burn holes into skin, as the nerves are instantly killed it doesn't hurt a whole heap though nerve damage from RF is a real concern but won't happen to and real extent from just the odd encounter with a flyback.


------=_Part_62923_24020881.1171529989729-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 01:47:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1F9lfhQ023896; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:47:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1F9lcHs023884; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:47:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:47:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gfNqyhZe4Hf6qVZPpcH6djLt90zN/hmhCWuYjlN+90eBSFLvTng82XNiQw12WDRo; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007241594645681@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:46:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fbb6571bd384243ce327995558ade443350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.208 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal fine-mesh seine as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the algae is a seine idea. Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson. :-) The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate "slash-and-char bio-char in situ. Fred http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases, Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils. "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by slash-and-char." In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict but is potentially very large," he added. " Nick Palmer wrote: > > > Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced > CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million! > Can anyone do some numbers? > > http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm > > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html >> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal fine-mesh seine
as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the algae is
a seine idea.
Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson.  :-)
 
The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are
brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are
brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing
CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate "slash-and-char
bio-char in situ.
 
Fred
 
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html
 
"Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases, Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils.

"The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by slash-and-char."

In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict but is potentially very large," he added. "
 
Nick Palmer wrote:
>
>
> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced
> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million!
> Can anyone do some numbers? 
>
> http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm
> 
> http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html
>
> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf
>

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:34:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FAY5MT007370; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:34:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FAY3YM007349; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:34:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:34:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <048001c750ec$85f9c0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> <046501c750d8$e6d73510$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:31:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1FAY0VF007318 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics >> You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself can't >> you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. Measure >> more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence of >> something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind skeptic :) > > > I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough to take > off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, It doesn't have to take off, you can measure the decrease in apparent weight. As for the maths, it boils down to: Ion wind contributed thrust in grams = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm Is this simple enough for you? > I'm basing the statement on > something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A Space > Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not > sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at the > different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule out ion > wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially since as I > said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work hardly > at all. Hearsay, beliefs, you'd better see for yourself. Whatever the device, > Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to brush it > aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just consider the > implications of such technology if it can be made effective. > In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be something in > it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss. > Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic No, I speak of experience, I have done experiments and measurements at all kinds of voltages and currents. As I said, you're the ion wind skeptic: skep·tic also scep·tic n. 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions > in which case what are you doing here? Wasting my time on someone who doesn't have a clue. > ... >> >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen >> power >> >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and >> hurt >> >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a >> meat >> >> chopper I was told). >> > >> > >> > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of >> > burning skin, plus a buzzing. >> > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. >> >> The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high voltages >> at the kW level, do you? :) > > > No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w flyback > that powers a plasma globe. How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with? :) You can get what my friend Xavier (fka Saviour) from Blazelabs described from the 1kW multi-flyback shown on his site (a supply I know quite well :). > Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or > practice. lol :) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 03:08:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FB8lIf023176; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:08:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FB8kFt023160; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:08:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:08:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WJIIGbo3GEMy6u9Hxt5I6Tb+LAvJGv/9AkZ8yXHFScdvU8LCozTz9XOOK4iL4KU4M/FCrUa3tDAqtSt8teZVoZmtloeX7qEVjEhBxe+bk9q93u5lwGKsheXvtzbrLv2DmxjIA4zjy0omf3nRzIM2sIZjD6E6eMS572tvsymX31Y= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:08:45 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-Reply-To: <048001c750ec$85f9c0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_63515_23522537.1171537725522" References: <098201c748b2$ec36a050$3800a8c0@zothan> <046501c750d8$e6d73510$3800a8c0@zothan> <048001c750ec$85f9c0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <0fCmoC.A.zpF.98D1FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_63515_23522537.1171537725522 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/15/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > > > No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w > flyback > > that powers a plasma globe. > > How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with? Of course not. ------=_Part_63515_23522537.1171537725522 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/15/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

> No,  not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w flyback
> that powers a plasma globe.

How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with?

Of course not.

------=_Part_63515_23522537.1171537725522-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 03:34:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FBYU4X009860; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:34:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FBYT4W009833; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:34:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:34:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <049401c750f4$f9727a60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007241594645681@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:32:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1FBYRt4009734 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charring works I agree but it retains only 50 percent of the biomass carbon. Half-charred idea: how about pressing the micro-algae for their oil and then charring the press-cake to make charcoal? If pressing retains 60% of the carbon, the whole process could sequester 80% of the captured carbon! BTW, are we set on high yield salt water micro-algae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture for the CO2 capture? It seems less fuss than macro-algae (seaweeds), and can be grown anywhere on the ocean surface not just in shallow areas. As I said if it turned out to be more economical we could also harvest the open sea phytoplankton (which we could re-seed to help natural reproduction), using floating multi-km2 fine-mesh nets. Wouldn't it be nice if a self-powered harvesting/processing supertanker departing empty from a middle east port could arrive full at a US port? :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize >I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal fine-mesh seine > as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the algae is > a seine idea. > Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson. :-) > > The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are > brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are > brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing > CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate "slash-and-char > bio-char in situ. > > Fred > > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html > > "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases, Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils. > > "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by slash-and-char." > > In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict but is potentially very large," he added. " > > Nick Palmer wrote: >> >> >> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced >> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million! >> Can anyone do some numbers? >> >> http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm >> >> http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html >>> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 03:44:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FBibc9017706; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:44:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FBiaiZ017686; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:44:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:44:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YVRk36h1JDCBYWsCbZZj/JRWw4Y+wHOIG6f9HkxR8eQ75XGrQXMppFMdiHQvDLff; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072415114418966@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:44:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c32bac30e80f3e2b5b2cfb32bd6909b5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you have the patience, this CalTech Electric Field Applet can be used to set up a simulation of the charged apparatus, the ion charges and the putative excess negative charge of the earth and the positive ionosphere. http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html My rough calculations before embarking on "flying" the 1.5 kg VDG plus a 2 kg 12 volt battery pack plus a 0.5 kg inverter and 0.5 kg heavy gauge aluminum foil atop a well isolated 10 kg capacity digital scale, indicates that a lift of 3 kg can be attained with a potential of 1.5 million volts on a device with the negative charge pumped from the inner sphere to the surrounding outer sphere by the VDG. But don't bet on it. :-) Fred > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 2/15/2007 3:34:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > > > >> You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself can't > >> you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. Measure > >> more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence of > >> something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind skeptic :) > > > > > > I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough to take > > off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, > > It doesn't have to take off, you can measure the decrease in apparent weight. As for the maths, it boils down to: > > Ion wind contributed thrust in grams = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm > > Is this simple enough for you? > > > I'm basing the statement on > > something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A Space > > Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not > > sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at the > > different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule out ion > > wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially since as I > > said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work hardly > > at all. > > Hearsay, beliefs, you'd better see for yourself. Whatever the device, > > > Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to brush it > > aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just consider the > > implications of such technology if it can be made effective. > > In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be something in > > it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss. > > Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic > > No, I speak of experience, I have done experiments and measurements at all kinds of voltages and currents. As I said, you're the ion wind skeptic: > > skep·tic also scep·tic > n. > 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions > > > in which case what are you doing here? > > Wasting my time on someone who doesn't have a clue. > > > ... > >> >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen > >> power > >> >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, and > >> hurt > >> >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in a > >> meat > >> >> chopper I was told). > >> > > >> > > >> > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of > >> > burning skin, plus a buzzing. > >> > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly irritating. > >> > >> The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high voltages > >> at the kW level, do you? :) > > > > > > No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w flyback > > that powers a plasma globe. > > How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with? :) You can get what my friend Xavier (fka Saviour) from Blazelabs described from the 1kW multi-flyback shown on his site (a supply I know quite well :). > > > Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or > > practice. > > lol :) > > Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:03:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FC3MDa011168; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:03:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FC3Kxd011136; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:03:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:03:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04ad01c750f9$00304270$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220072415114418966@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:01:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1FC3H4E011076 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred the applet works fine I guess, but to use it you need to know how the charges are distributed on the Earth's surface, which you don't, and that's what will prevent your device flying to the moon I am afraid (people will call me a skeptic again :). As several of us pointed out, same sign earth charge will crawl away from your charged device, and opposite sign charge -image charge- will remain on the ground below your device, forming an earth-device capacitor attracting your device downwards. To simulate what would really happen you must look for an applet in which you would define conductors and total charge and which would work out charge distribution for you, this may exist. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > If you have the patience, this CalTech Electric Field Applet can > be used to set up a simulation of the charged apparatus, the ion charges and > the putative excess negative charge of the earth and the positive > ionosphere. > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > My rough calculations before embarking on "flying" the 1.5 kg VDG plus > a 2 kg 12 volt battery pack plus a 0.5 kg inverter and 0.5 kg heavy gauge > aluminum > foil atop a well isolated 10 kg capacity digital scale, indicates that a > lift of 3 kg can be attained > with a potential of 1.5 million volts on a device with the negative charge > pumped > from the inner sphere to the surrounding outer sphere by the VDG. But don't > bet on it. :-) > > Fred > >> [Original Message] >> From: Michel Jullian >> To: >> Date: 2/15/2007 3:34:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Berry" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:59 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics >> >> >> >> >> You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself > can't >> >> you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. > Measure >> >> more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence > of >> >> something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind > skeptic :) >> > >> > >> > I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough to > take >> > off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, >> >> It doesn't have to take off, you can measure the decrease in apparent > weight. As for the maths, it boils down to: >> >> Ion wind contributed thrust in grams = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm >> >> Is this simple enough for you? >> >> > I'm basing the statement on >> > something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A Space >> > Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not >> > sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at the >> > different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule out > ion >> > wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially since > as I >> > said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work > hardly >> > at all. >> >> Hearsay, beliefs, you'd better see for yourself. Whatever the device, >> >> > Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to > brush it >> > aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just consider > the >> > implications of such technology if it can be made effective. >> > In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be > something in >> > it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss. >> > Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic >> >> No, I speak of experience, I have done experiments and measurements at > all kinds of voltages and currents. As I said, you're the ion wind skeptic: >> >> skep·tic also scep·tic >> n. >> 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees > with assertions or generally accepted conclusions >> >> > in which case what are you doing here? >> >> Wasting my time on someone who doesn't have a clue. >> >> > ... >> >> >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen >> >> power >> >> >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, > and >> >> hurt >> >> >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in > a >> >> meat >> >> >> chopper I was told). >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of >> >> > burning skin, plus a buzzing. >> >> > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly > irritating. >> >> >> >> The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high > voltages >> >> at the kW level, do you? :) >> > >> > >> > No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w > flyback >> > that powers a plasma globe. >> >> How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with? :) You can get > what my friend Xavier (fka Saviour) from Blazelabs described from the 1kW > multi-flyback shown on his site (a supply I know quite well :). >> >> > Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or >> > practice. >> >> lol :) >> >> Michel > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:12:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCCVpm000409; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:12:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCCT1e000372; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:12:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:12:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H6TJmobYF+/CpKrkXpI0tBMO7M+hrygSSU1tlrF11srRdH8rfRB2Jp11+Hx8XC2y; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072415121120307@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:11:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408b9d3d046cfcb6fc9787d4dfe5de43c8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > Charring works I agree but it retains only 50 percent of the biomass carbon. > Right the pyrolysis creates CO + H2 + pyroligneous acids etc that reacts with the atmospheric O2 which I found with my early biomass work was enough to self-power a unit that augered biomass through a stainless steel tube heated to 1200-1400 F with the off gas and acids wet scrubbed. > >Half-charred idea: how about pressing the micro-algae for their oil and then charring the press-cake to make charcoal? > If pressing retains 60% of the carbon, the whole process could sequester 80% of the captured carbon! > Vacuum or inert gas (N2) pyrolysis can do that. > > BTW, are we set on high yield salt water micro-algae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture for the CO2 capture? > It's hard to grow seaweed in livestock watering tanks, and water evaporation (about 12,000-15,000 gallons/acre-day) makes large desert algae ponds rather impractical > > It seems less fuss than macro-algae (seaweeds), and can be grown anywhere on the ocean surface not just in shallow areas. > The use of floated "seine" ponds in fresh or sea water would make large scale harvesting more practical. No? > > As I said if it turned out to be more economical we could also harvest the open sea phytoplankton > (which we could re-seed to help natural reproduction), using floating multi-km2 fine-mesh nets >. > Wouldn't it be nice if a self-powered harvesting/processing supertanker departing empty from a middle east port could arrive full at a US port? :) > Lets get Nick Palmer across the "Chunnel" from you to ask Sir Richard Branson that question. Fred >. > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > > > >I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal fine-mesh seine > > as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the algae is > > a seine idea. > > Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson. :-) > > > > The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are > > brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are > > brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing > > CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate "slash-and-char > > bio-char in situ. > > > > Fred > > > > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555 16.html > > > > "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases, Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils. > > > > "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by slash-and-char." > > > > In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict but is potentially very large," he added. " > > > > Nick Palmer wrote: > >> > >> > >> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced > >> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million! > >> Can anyone do some numbers? > >> > >> http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm > >> > >> http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555 16.html > >>> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf > >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:25:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCP6ao004326; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:25:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCP4Cm004298; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Dcl0KJ1jaHjClxPfSt1JHNHjnrB4XbeoTIqVjTX/7zdqZWVtFLKwEAGAgEhH1lBbJopwDLf3EUZjhCqztaemO1vMfksxJMQ9+MTOn+1qWkMf/ylDNt6qGxyFBKERQgojnyMVrncGJ5hfrtGspjMAB52Mc6arA2cQrL37UUOvaO0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:25:00 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics In-Reply-To: <04ad01c750f9$00304270$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_63979_23825398.1171542300240" References: <410-220072415114418966@earthlink.net> <04ad01c750f9$00304270$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_63979_23825398.1171542300240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hate to agree with Michel for once, but unless you are quite high that is exactly what will happen. Indeed a negative sphere can attract another negative sphere as long as one is at a higher potential according to experiments others have preformed, an= d I think the math would agree. On 2/16/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Fred the applet works fine I guess, but to use it you need to know how th= e > charges are distributed on the Earth's surface, which you don't, and that= 's > what will prevent your device flying to the moon I am afraid (people will > call me a skeptic again :). As several of us pointed out, same sign earth > charge will crawl away from your charged device, and opposite sign charge > -image charge- will remain on the ground below your device, forming an > earth-device capacitor attracting your device downwards. > > To simulate what would really happen you must look for an applet in which > you would define conductors and total charge and which would work out cha= rge > distribution for you, this may exist. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > > > If you have the patience, this CalTech Electric Field Applet can > > be used to set up a simulation of the charged apparatus, the ion charge= s > and > > the putative excess negative charge of the earth and the positive > > ionosphere. > > > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > > > My rough calculations before embarking on "flying" the 1.5 kg VDG plus > > a 2 kg 12 volt battery pack plus a 0.5 kg inverter and 0.5 kg heavy > gauge > > aluminum > > foil atop a well isolated 10 kg capacity digital scale, indicates that = a > > lift of 3 kg can be attained > > with a potential of 1.5 million volts on a device with the negative > charge > > pumped > > from the inner sphere to the surrounding outer sphere by the VDG. But > don't > > bet on it. :-) > > > > Fred > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Michel Jullian > >> To: > >> Date: 2/15/2007 3:34:23 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John Berry" > >> To: > >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:59 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > >> > >> > >> > >> >> You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yoursel= f > > can't > >> >> you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. > > Measure > >> >> more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found > evidence > > of > >> >> something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind > > skeptic :) > >> > > >> > > >> > I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough t= o > > take > >> > off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, > >> > >> It doesn't have to take off, you can measure the decrease in apparent > > weight. As for the maths, it boils down to: > >> > >> Ion wind contributed thrust in grams =3D 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in= mm > >> > >> Is this simple enough for you? > >> > >> > I'm basing the statement on > >> > something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A > Space > >> > Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not > >> > sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at > the > >> > different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule ou= t > > ion > >> > wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially sinc= e > > as I > >> > said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work > > hardly > >> > at all. > >> > >> Hearsay, beliefs, you'd better see for yourself. Whatever the device, > >> > >> > Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to > > brush it > >> > aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just > consider > > the > >> > implications of such technology if it can be made effective. > >> > In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be > > something in > >> > it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss. > >> > Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic > >> > >> No, I speak of experience, I have done experiments and measurements at > > all kinds of voltages and currents. As I said, you're the ion wind > skeptic: > >> > >> skep=B7tic also scep=B7tic > >> n. > >> 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees > > with assertions or generally accepted conclusions > >> > >> > in which case what are you doing here? > >> > >> Wasting my time on someone who doesn't have a clue. > >> > >> > ... > >> >> >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer > screen > >> >> power > >> >> >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be > lethal, > > and > >> >> hurt > >> >> >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught > in > > a > >> >> meat > >> >> >> chopper I was told). > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smel= l > of > >> >> > burning skin, plus a buzzing. > >> >> > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly > > irritating. > >> >> > >> >> The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high > > voltages > >> >> at the kW level, do you? :) > >> > > >> > > >> > No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w > > flyback > >> > that powers a plasma globe. > >> > >> How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with? :) You can > get > > what my friend Xavier (fka Saviour) from Blazelabs described from the > 1kW > > multi-flyback shown on his site (a supply I know quite well :). > >> > >> > Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or > >> > practice. > >> > >> lol :) > >> > >> Michel > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_63979_23825398.1171542300240 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hate to agree with Michel for once, but unless you are quite high that is e= xactly what will happen.

Indeed a negative sphere can attract anothe= r negative sphere as long as one is at a higher potential according to expe= riments others have preformed, and I think the math would agree.

On 2/16/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.c= om> wrote:
Fred the applet works fine I guess, but to use it you need to know how the = charges are distributed on the Earth's surface, which you don't, an= d that's what will prevent your device flying to the moon I am afraid (= people will call me a skeptic again :). As several of us pointed out, same = sign earth charge will crawl away from your charged device, and opposite si= gn charge -image charge- will remain on the ground below your device, formi= ng an earth-device capacitor attracting your device downwards.

To simulate what would really happen you must look for an applet in= which you would define conductors and total charge and which would work ou= t charge distribution for you, this may exist.

Michel

----- O= riginal Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber@earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February = 15, 2007 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics


> = If you have the patience, this CalTech Electric Field Applet can
> be= used to set up a simulation of the charged apparatus, the ion charges and
> the putative excess negative charge of the earth and the positive<= br>> ionosphere.
>
> http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java= /phys1/EField/EField.html
>
> My rough calculations before embarking on "flying= " the 1.5 kg VDG plus
> a 2 kg 12 volt battery pack plus a 0.5 k= g inverter and 0.5 kg  heavy gauge
> aluminum
> foil = atop a well isolated 10 kg capacity digital scale, indicates that a
> lift of 3 kg can be attained
> with a potential of 1.5 milli= on volts on a device with the negative charge
> pumped
> from t= he inner sphere to the surrounding outer sphere by the VDG. But don't
> bet on it.  :-)
>
> Fred
>
>>= [Original Message]
>> From: Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com>
>> To: < vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>> Date: 2/15/2007 3:34:23 AM
>&= gt; Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics
>>
&= gt;>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jo= hn Berry" < aether22@gmail.com>
>>= ; To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>= ;
>> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:59 AM
>> Subject= : Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics
>>
>>
>>
>> >> You can calculate= i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself
> can't
&g= t;> >> you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the= thrust in N.
> Measure
>> >> more thrust than that in a device, an= d then you'll have found evidence
> of
>> >> somet= hing else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind
> ske= ptic :)
>> >
>> >
>> > I haven't really do= ne any lifter experiments (not one light enough to
> take
>>= > off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit,
>>
>>= ; It doesn't have to take off, you can measure the decrease in apparent
> weight. As for the maths, it boils down to:
>>
>>= ; Ion wind contributed thrust in grams =3D 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm=
>>
>> Is this simple enough for you?
>>
>= > > I'm basing the statement on
>> > something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Age= ncy, or Not A Space
>> > Agency) mathematician, I believe it wa= s saying that ion wind was not
>> > sufficient to account for t= he thrust, and honestly when you look at the
>> > different things that have been done to reduce or apparen= tly rule out
> ion
>> > wind, well they paint a far more = convincing picture, especially since
> as I
>> > said ion= wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work
> hardly
>> > at all.
>>
>> Hearsay, b= eliefs, you'd better see for yourself. Whatever the device,
>>=
>> > Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you = choose to
> brush it
>> > aside in preference of a less likely mun= dane explanation, just consider
> the
>> > implications o= f such technology if it can be made effective.
>> > In fact if = you think there is even a chance that there might be
> something in
>> > it you should realize it is too valu= able to dismiss.
>> > Unless of course you are in reality a ske= ptic
>>
>> No, I speak of experience, I have done experim= ents and measurements at
> all kinds of voltages and currents. As I said, you're the ion = wind skeptic:
>>
>> skep=B7tic also scep=B7tic
>>= ; n.
>> 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, = or disagrees
> with assertions or generally accepted conclusions
>>
&= gt;> > in which case what are you doing here?
>>
>>= Wasting my time on someone who doesn't have a clue.
>>
>> > ...
>> >> >> Beware though that high vol= tages (25kV for a typical computer screen
>> >> power
>= ;> >> >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA= ) can be lethal,
> and
>> >> hurt
>> >> >> a lot = in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in
> a
= >> >> meat
>> >> >> chopper I was told).
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> &= gt; Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of>> >> > burning skin, plus a buzzing.
>> >>= > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly
> irritating.
>> >>
>> >> The friend w= ho made that description of the pain plays with high
> voltages
&g= t;> >> at the kW level, do you?  :)
>> >
= >> >
>> > No,  not kW levels, in fact you can get what I = described from a 12w
> flyback
>> > that powers a plasma = globe.
>>
>> How cute, is this what you tried to fly your= lifter with? :) You can get
> what my friend Xavier (fka Saviour) from Blazelabs described from = the 1kW
> multi-flyback shown on his site (a supply I know quite well= :).
>>
>> > Honestly you seem to know very little abo= ut electricity in theory or
>> > practice.
>>
>> lol :)
>>
&= gt;> Michel
>
>
>


------=_Part_63979_23825398.1171542300240-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:25:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCPaxu022187; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:25:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCPYQt022167; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:25:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:25:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=i7pkHqLr+iYAzAWZdJAQy6lycgAzywAX4GZi1MsBWxY/KJ6zodWgii+s7TFxdWWl; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072415122514136@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:25:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f73af3bc7c6d966a63f4593109d3814d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote. > > Fred the applet works fine I guess, but to use it you need to know how the charges are distributed on the Earth's surface, which you don't, and that's what will prevent your device flying to the moon I am afraid (people will call me a skeptic again :). As several of us pointed out, same sign earth charge will crawl away from your charged device, and opposite sign charge -image charge- will remain on the ground below your device, forming an earth-device capacitor attracting your device downwards. > That is why I'm not in a big hurry to try it, Michel. > > To simulate what would really happen you must look for an applet in which you would define conductors and total charge and which would work out charge distribution for you, this may exist. > Right. Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > > > > If you have the patience, this CalTech Electric Field Applet can > > be used to set up a simulation of the charged apparatus, the ion charges and > > the putative excess negative charge of the earth and the positive > > ionosphere. > > > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > > > My rough calculations before embarking on "flying" the 1.5 kg VDG plus > > a 2 kg 12 volt battery pack plus a 0.5 kg inverter and 0.5 kg heavy gauge > > aluminum > > foil atop a well isolated 10 kg capacity digital scale, indicates that a > > lift of 3 kg can be attained > > with a potential of 1.5 million volts on a device with the negative charge > > pumped > > from the inner sphere to the surrounding outer sphere by the VDG. But don't > > bet on it. :-) > > > > Fred > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Michel Jullian > >> To: > >> Date: 2/15/2007 3:34:23 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John Berry" > >> To: > >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:59 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Fred's Van de Graaff Antics > >> > >> > >> > >> >> You can calculate i*d/2E-4 (i current in A, d gap in m) for yourself > > can't > >> >> you? Well that's the ion wind's contribution to the thrust in N. > > Measure > >> >> more thrust than that in a device, and then you'll have found evidence > > of > >> >> something else contributing, until then you're an idiot ion wind > > skeptic :) > >> > > >> > > >> > I haven't really done any lifter experiments (not one light enough to > > take > >> > off anyway) and math isn't my strong suit, > >> > >> It doesn't have to take off, you can measure the decrease in apparent > > weight. As for the maths, it boils down to: > >> > >> Ion wind contributed thrust in grams = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm > >> > >> Is this simple enough for you? > >> > >> > I'm basing the statement on > >> > something I read about a NASA (Nasa Ain't a Space Agency, or Not A Space > >> > Agency) mathematician, I believe it was saying that ion wind was not > >> > sufficient to account for the thrust, and honestly when you look at the > >> > different things that have been done to reduce or apparently rule out > > ion > >> > wind, well they paint a far more convincing picture, especially since > > as I > >> > said ion wind doesn't account for other embodiments of Brown's work > > hardly > >> > at all. > >> > >> Hearsay, beliefs, you'd better see for yourself. Whatever the device, > >> > >> > Why when there is more evidence for a real effect do you choose to > > brush it > >> > aside in preference of a less likely mundane explanation, just consider > > the > >> > implications of such technology if it can be made effective. > >> > In fact if you think there is even a chance that there might be > > something in > >> > it you should realize it is too valuable to dismiss. > >> > Unless of course you are in reality a skeptic > >> > >> No, I speak of experience, I have done experiments and measurements at > > all kinds of voltages and currents. As I said, you're the ion wind skeptic: > >> > >> skep·tic also scep·tic > >> n. > >> 1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees > > with assertions or generally accepted conclusions > >> > >> > in which case what are you doing here? > >> > >> Wasting my time on someone who doesn't have a clue. > >> > >> > ... > >> >> >> Beware though that high voltages (25kV for a typical computer screen > >> >> power > >> >> >> supply) at any sizeable current (more than a few mA) can be lethal, > > and > >> >> hurt > >> >> >> a lot in the very least (feels a bit like having your arm caught in > > a > >> >> meat > >> >> >> chopper I was told). > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Actually the only thing you feel is a pin point burn and the smell of > >> >> > burning skin, plus a buzzing. > >> >> > If it wasn't for the burn it's not painful though possibly > > irritating. > >> >> > >> >> The friend who made that description of the pain plays with high > > voltages > >> >> at the kW level, do you? :) > >> > > >> > > >> > No, not kW levels, in fact you can get what I described from a 12w > > flyback > >> > that powers a plasma globe. > >> > >> How cute, is this what you tried to fly your lifter with? :) You can get > > what my friend Xavier (fka Saviour) from Blazelabs described from the 1kW > > multi-flyback shown on his site (a supply I know quite well :). > >> > >> > Honestly you seem to know very little about electricity in theory or > >> > practice. > >> > >> lol :) > >> > >> Michel > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:31:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCVXAm024840; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:31:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCVV5B024822; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:31:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:31:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WgksAV43FjtC7bvsqAvS8fbtC6FL8JbSEgVRwmuKhOJhqHn4E+sHJ3wo6aUtdVmZ5pBsB0N0zp2xZD66N5pLo1hds4MrlDybj9EOEEMMZwLRPFjAnYT9KVKniP4ER33z1XB/VtV3hUWgy+HILXmYQXzdFoAmp92FtnxYjU0xGtk= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:31:29 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <410-220072415121120307@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_64003_7718703.1171542689892" References: <410-220072415121120307@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_64003_7718703.1171542689892 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so what do you think the cost per tonne of carbon dioxide removed by your method would be? Obviously it's going to have to be better than $15USD per tonne to be worth while. Though I don't suspect you aren't far enough along for a cost analysis yet? On 2/16/07, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Michel Jullian wrote. > > > > Charring works I agree but it retains only 50 percent of the biomass > carbon. > > > Right the pyrolysis creates CO + H2 + pyroligneous acids etc that reacts > with the atmospheric O2 > which I found with my early biomass work was enough to self-power a unit > that augered > biomass through a stainless steel tube heated to 1200-1400 F with the off > gas and acids wet scrubbed. > > > >Half-charred idea: how about pressing the micro-algae for their oil and > then charring the press-cake to make charcoal? > > If pressing retains 60% of the carbon, the whole process could sequester > 80% of the captured carbon! > > > Vacuum or inert gas (N2) pyrolysis can do that. > > > > BTW, are we set on high yield salt water micro-algae > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture for the CO2 capture? > > > It's hard to grow seaweed in livestock watering tanks, and water > evaporation (about 12,000-15,000 gallons/acre-day) > makes large desert algae ponds rather impractical > > > > It seems less fuss than macro-algae (seaweeds), and can be grown > anywhere > on the ocean surface not just in shallow areas. > > > The use of floated "seine" ponds in fresh or sea water would make large > scale harvesting more practical. No? > > > > As I said if it turned out to be more economical we could also harvest > the open sea phytoplankton > > (which we could re-seed to help natural reproduction), using floating > multi-km2 fine-mesh nets > >. > > Wouldn't it be nice if a self-powered harvesting/processing supertanker > departing empty from a middle east port could arrive full at a US port? :) > > > Lets get Nick Palmer across the "Chunnel" from you to ask Sir Richard > Branson that question. > > Fred > >. > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > To: "vortex-l" > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > > > > > > >I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal > fine-mesh seine > > > as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the > algae is > > > a seine idea. > > > Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson. > :-) > > > > > > The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that > are > > > brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are > > > brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing > > > CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate > "slash-and-char > > > bio-char in situ. > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555 > 16.html > > > > > > "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to > prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. > Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases, > Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of > years > and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils. > > > > > > "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is > retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this > technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric > carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful > tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have > calculated > that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity > could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by > slash-and-char." > > > > > > In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating > bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as > a > byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a > byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to > predict > but is potentially very large," he added. " > > > > > > Nick Palmer wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol > the > apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was > created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced > > >> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million! > > >> Can anyone do some numbers? > > >> > > >> > http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm > > >> > > >> > > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555 > 16.html > > >>> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf > > >> > > > > ------=_Part_64003_7718703.1171542689892 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so what do you think the cost per tonne of carbon dioxide removed by your method would be?

Obviously it's going to have to be better than $15USD per tonne to be worth while.

Though I don't suspect you aren't far enough along for a cost analysis yet?

On 2/16/07, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net> wrote:
Michel Jullian wrote.
>
> Charring works I agree but it retains only 50 percent of the biomass
carbon.
>
Right the pyrolysis creates CO + H2 + pyroligneous acids etc that reacts
with the atmospheric O2
which I found with my early biomass work was enough to self-power  a unit
that augered
biomass through a stainless steel tube heated to 1200-1400 F with the off
gas and acids wet scrubbed.
>
>Half-charred idea: how about pressing the micro-algae for their oil and
then charring the press-cake to make charcoal?
> If pressing retains 60% of the carbon, the whole process could sequester
80% of the captured carbon!
>
Vacuum or inert gas (N2) pyrolysis can do that.
>
> BTW, are we set on high yield salt water micro-algae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture for the CO2 capture?
>
It's hard to grow seaweed in livestock watering tanks, and water
evaporation (about 12,000-15,000 gallons/acre-day)
makes large desert algae ponds rather impractical
>
> It seems less fuss than macro-algae (seaweeds), and can be grown anywhere
on the ocean surface not just in shallow areas.
>
The use of floated "seine" ponds in fresh or sea water would make large
scale harvesting more practical. No?
>
> As I said if it turned out to be more economical we could also harvest
the open sea phytoplankton
> (which we could re-seed to help natural reproduction), using floating
multi-km2 fine-mesh nets
>.
> Wouldn't it be nice if a self-powered harvesting/processing supertanker
departing empty from a middle east port could arrive full at a US port? :)
>
Lets get Nick Palmer across the "Chunnel" from you to ask Sir Richard
Branson that question.

Fred
>.
> Michel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber@earthlink.net>
> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize
>
>
> >I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal
fine-mesh seine
> > as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the
algae is
> > a seine idea.
> > Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson.
:-)
> >
> > The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are
> > brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are
> > brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing
> > CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate
"slash-and-char
> > bio-char in situ.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555
16.html
> >
> > "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to
prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases,
Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years
and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils.
> >
> > "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is
retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this
technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric
carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful
tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated
that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity
could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by
slash-and-char."
> >
> > In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating
bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a
byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a
byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict
but is potentially very large," he added. "
> >
> > Nick Palmer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the
apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was
created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced
> >> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million!
> >> Can anyone do some numbers?
> >>
> >>
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm
> >>
> >>
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555
16.html
> >>> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf
> >>




------=_Part_64003_7718703.1171542689892-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:34:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCYRfJ026568; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:34:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCYPXl026550; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:34:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:34:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c750fd$9e3fd580$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: Cc: "Vortex-L" References: <410-22007241594645681@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:34:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C750FD.9B285C50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C750FD.9B285C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not so sure that "in situ" slash and char of scrub on a large scale = would be totally beneficial environmentally! - did you ever see a = charcoal burner's mound smoking? That's why the "in vessel" pyrolysers, = which have acid gas scrubbing and NOx removal, are favourite. Algae = seemed better because it grows so d***ed quick and can be used to absorb = CO2 both directly from fossil fuel power plants and, in ponds, from the = atmosphere. With this implementation, the use of oil rich algae would = not be necessary - just a high residual "dry weight" - it wouldn't = matter if it was cellulose, carbohydrate or oil... The resulting = charcoal "sand" or "dust" could be ploughed into marginal land reducing = nitrogenous fertiliser input etc. I don't know what effect it would have = on already fertile land... Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C750FD.9B285C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not so sure that "in situ" slash = and char of=20 scrub on a large scale would be totally beneficial = environmentally! -=20 did you ever see a charcoal burner's mound smoking? That's why the "in = vessel"=20 pyrolysers, which have acid gas scrubbing and NOx removal, are = favourite. Algae=20 seemed better because it grows so d***ed quick and can be used to absorb = CO2=20 both directly from fossil fuel power plants and, in ponds, from the = atmosphere.=20 With this implementation, the use of oil rich algae would not be = necessary=20 - just a high residual "dry weight" - it wouldn't matter if it was = cellulose,=20 carbohydrate or oil... The resulting charcoal "sand" or "dust" = could be=20 ploughed into marginal land reducing nitrogenous fertiliser input = etc. I=20 don't know what effect it would have on already fertile = land...
 
Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C750FD.9B285C50-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:46:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCkWhW031001; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:46:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCkU0Y030971; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:46:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:46:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009701c750ff$52717bc0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <410-22007241594645681@earthlink.net> <049401c750f4$f9727a60$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:46:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel wrote:- <> Excellent idea - carbon neutral (ish) fuel plus regenerated higher fertility, lower input agriculture plus sequestered stable carbon. Looks like a win-win-win situation. Anybody see any flies in the ointment? Does anyone know if algal strains exist that can fix their own nitrogen from the atmosphere -or would they need nitrogenous fertiliser added?? Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:49:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCn70R014186; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:49:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCn6pR014176; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:49:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:49:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GRpHJFheo1hpi5/bkN3rqkCxf/YHwVQcPlsW1wQ4hL+zW3GBEe6Unn2nJLlRXEtj; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:48:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94036809a552ed71c217ef8e8a0e96dca1c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII John, I could roll out tens of kilometers of properly-designed 10 meter wide floating Algae "seine" from a barge on the Red Sea and roll it back up to squeeze out the algae and saline water several months later, while you are taking a stroll across the ocean to reach the proverbial "promised land for ozzies" in the Mojave Desert. :-) Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 2/15/2007 5:31:54 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Ok, so what do you think the cost per tonne of carbon dioxide removed by your method would be? Obviously it's going to have to be better than $15USD per tonne to be worth while. Though I don't suspect you aren't far enough along for a cost analysis yet? On 2/16/07, Frederick Sparber wrote: Michel Jullian wrote. > > Charring works I agree but it retains only 50 percent of the biomass carbon. > Right the pyrolysis creates CO + H2 + pyroligneous acids etc that reacts with the atmospheric O2 which I found with my early biomass work was enough to self-power a unit that augered biomass through a stainless steel tube heated to 1200-1400 F with the off gas and acids wet scrubbed. > >Half-charred idea: how about pressing the micro-algae for their oil and then charring the press-cake to make charcoal? > If pressing retains 60% of the carbon, the whole process could sequester 80% of the captured carbon! > Vacuum or inert gas (N2) pyrolysis can do that. > > BTW, are we set on high yield salt water micro-algae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture for the CO2 capture? > It's hard to grow seaweed in livestock watering tanks, and water evaporation (about 12,000-15,000 gallons/acre-day) makes large desert algae ponds rather impractical > > It seems less fuss than macro-algae (seaweeds), and can be grown anywhere on the ocean surface not just in shallow areas. > The use of floated "seine" ponds in fresh or sea water would make large scale harvesting more practical. No? > > As I said if it turned out to be more economical we could also harvest the open sea phytoplankton > (which we could re-seed to help natural reproduction), using floating multi-km2 fine-mesh nets >. > Wouldn't it be nice if a self-powered harvesting/processing supertanker departing empty from a middle east port could arrive full at a US port? :) > Lets get Nick Palmer across the "Chunnel" from you to ask Sir Richard Branson that question. Fred >. > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" < vortex-l@eskimo.com> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > > > >I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal fine-mesh seine > > as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the algae is > > a seine idea. > > Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson. :-) > > > > The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are > > brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are > > brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing > > CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate "slash-and-char > > bio-char in situ. > > > > Fred > > > > http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555 16.html > > > > "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases, Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils. > > > > "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a powerful tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by slash-and-char." > > > > In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict but is potentially very large," he added. " > > > > Nick Palmer wrote: > >> > >> > >> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced > >> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million! > >> Can anyone do some numbers? > >> > >> http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm > >> > >> http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555 16.html > >>> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf > >> ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
John,
 
I could roll out tens of kilometers of properly-designed 10 meter wide floating Algae "seine"
from a barge on the Red Sea and roll it back up to squeeze out the algae and
saline water several months later, while you are taking a stroll across the ocean to
reach the proverbial "promised land for ozzies" in the Mojave Desert. :-)
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: John Berry
Sent: 2/15/2007 5:31:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

Ok, so what do you think the cost per tonne of carbon dioxide removed by your method would be?

Obviously it's going to have to be better than $15USD per tonne to be worth while.

Though I don't suspect you aren't far enough along for a cost analysis yet?

On 2/16/07, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net> wrote:
Michel Jullian wrote.
>
> Charring works I agree but it retains only 50 percent of the biomass
carbon.
>
Right the pyrolysis creates CO + H2 + pyroligneous acids etc that reacts
with the atmospheric O2
which I found with my early biomass work was enough to self-power  a unit
that augered
biomass through a stainless steel tube heated to 1200-1400 F with the off
gas and acids wet scrubbed.
>
>Half-charred idea: how about pressing the micro-algae for their oil and
then charring the press-cake to make charcoal?
> If pressing retains 60% of the carbon, the whole process could sequester
80% of the captured carbon!
>
Vacuum or inert gas (N2) pyrolysis can do that.
>
> BTW, are we set on high yield salt water micro-algae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture for the CO2 capture?
>
It's hard to grow seaweed in livestock watering tanks, and water
evaporation (about 12,000-15,000 gallons/acre-day)
makes large desert algae ponds rather impractical
>
> It seems less fuss than macro-algae (seaweeds), and can be grown anywhere
on the ocean surface not just in shallow areas.
>
The use of floated "seine" ponds in fresh or sea water would make large
scale harvesting more practical. No?
>
> As I said if it turned out to be more economical we could also harvest
the open sea phytoplankton
> (which we could re-seed to help natural reproduction), using floating
multi-km2 fine-mesh nets
>.
> Wouldn't it be nice if a self-powered harvesting/processing supertanker
departing empty from a middle east port could arrive full at a US port? :)
>
Lets get Nick Palmer across the "Chunnel" from you to ask Sir Richard
Branson that question.

Fred
>.
>! Michel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber@earthlink.net>
> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize
>
>
> >I see your point Nick, harvesting algae using a floating horizontal
fine-mesh seine
> > as an algae pond to sequester atmospheric CO2 followed by charring the
algae is
> > a seine idea.
> > Since Michel is closer to the Seine.... and you are closer to Branson.
:-)
> >
> > The millions of acres in the US that are in "set aside acreage" that are
> > brush-hogged so the farmer can collect up to $30.00/acre (or are
> > brush-hogged to keep the place looking good) that oxidize releasing
> > CO2, could be covered with a fiberglass mat or such to generate
"slash-and-char
> > bio-char in situ.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555
16.html
> >
> > "Slash-and-burn, which is commonly used in many parts of the world to
prepare fields for crops, releases greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Slash-and-char, on the other hand, actually reduces greenhouse gases,
Lehmann said, by sequestering huge amounts of carbon for thousands of years
and substantially reducing methane and nitrous oxide emissions from soils.
> >
> > "The result is that about 50 percent of the biomass carbon is
retained," Lehmann said. "By sequestering huge amounts of carbon, this
technique constitutes a much longer and significant sink for atmospheric
carbon dioxide than most other sequestration options, making it a p! owerful< BR>tool for long-term mitigation of climate change. In fact we have calculated
that up to 12 percent of the carbon emissions produced by human activity
could be offset annually if slash-and-burn were replaced by
slash-and-char."
> >
> > In addition, many biofuel production methods, such as generating
bioenergy from agricultural, fish and forestry waste, produce bio-char as a
byproduct. "The global importance of a bio-char sequestration as a
byproduct of the conversion of biomass to bio-fuels is difficult to predict
but is potentially very large," he added. "
> >
> > Nick Palmer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's three more websites (particularly the first one) that extol the
apparently huge benefits of bio-char charcoal in > soils. If the char was
created from pyrolysed algae that was fattened on fossil fuel sourced
> >> CO2, we could be on our way to a share of $25 million!
> >> Can anyone do some numbers?
> >>
> >>
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm
> >>
> >>
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-555
16.html
> >>> http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/05947/EGU05-J-05947.pdf
> >>




------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:58:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FCwhmt004233; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:58:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FCwgsE004207; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:58:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:58:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a201c75101$06819040$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <410-220072415121120307@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:58:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009F_01C75100.FB3801B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01C75100.FB3801B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Algal "blooms" happen naturally in rivers and at sea = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algal_bloom often near estuarine areas = which discharge agricultural nitrogenous leachate and nitrate and = phosphate rich substances from such products as detergents and clothes = washing powder. Biochemical oxygen demand of the explosive growth can = suffocate other life in the area - just bubbling the atmosphere through = the areas ought to increase yield a lot. ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01C75100.FB3801B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Algal "blooms" happen naturally in = rivers=20 and at sea http://en.wikipedia.org= /wiki/Algal_bloom =20 often near estuarine areas which discharge agricultural nitrogenous = leachate and nitrate and phosphate rich substances from such = products as=20 detergents and clothes washing powder. Biochemical oxygen demand of the=20 explosive growth can suffocate other life in the area - just bubbling = the=20 atmosphere through the areas ought to increase yield a lot.=20
------=_NextPart_000_009F_01C75100.FB3801B0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 05:12:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FDCTpc009921; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:12:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FDCSAQ009908; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:12:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:12:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015b01c75102$f0597f10$1c00420a@uesc.net> From: "Orson" To: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:12:26 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0158_01C750E9.CAE8B980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <_UAm5.A.saC.7wF1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: From FAS Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0158_01C750E9.CAE8B980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.fas.org/irp/mystery/pde.htm [ ]=B4s Galva ------=_NextPart_000_0158_01C750E9.CAE8B980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.fas.org/irp/my= stery/pde.htm
 
[ ]=B4s Galva
------=_NextPart_000_0158_01C750E9.CAE8B980-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 05:16:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FDFpDS024988; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:15:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FDFn29024969; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:15:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:15:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=aUwU829ujJoWHrRoGkkKstZ1jwXpbCCzJ512aSF40AMjXMy3gWZ+QygcSFNTDmsN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072415131530854@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:15:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eabaa3c20a379d459d712de355b54654350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.99 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - did you ever see a charcoal burner's mound smoking? Yes. Nick In the mid 1960s they were all over eastern Oklahoma and western Arkansas. And also for days smoldering cow dung and horse "biscuits" after burning off my fields as well as the smoke from the burn-off of hundreds of acres of straws that give a quick nutrient boost to the croplands, and the sugarcane burn-off in the south. OTOH, a fine-weave fire-heat-resistant fabric can eliminate visible smoke, but the aerobic bacterial oxidation of brush-hogged fields is much more subtle as it releases the CO2 into the atmosphere. Some time ago I posted to this List that agricultural wastes and other biomass, collected and stored can offset some of the fossil fuel CO2 burden. Heat decomposes available nitrogen nutrients, but I gather that the Bio-Char aids in keeping natural soil nitrogen nutrients available. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Palmer To: fjsparber@earthlink.net Cc: Vortex-L Sent: 2/15/2007 5:35:00 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize I'm not so sure that "in situ" slash and char of scrub on a large scale would be totally beneficial environmentally! - did you ever see a charcoal burner's mound smoking? That's why the "in vessel" pyrolysers, which have acid gas scrubbing and NOx removal, are favourite. Algae seemed better because it grows so d***ed quick and can be used to absorb CO2 both directly from fossil fuel power plants and, in ponds, from the atmosphere. With this implementation, the use of oil rich algae would not be necessary - just a high residual "dry weight" - it wouldn't matter if it was cellulose, carbohydrate or oil... The resulting charcoal "sand" or "dust" could be ploughed into marginal land reducing nitrogenous fertiliser input etc. I don't know what effect it would have on already fertile land... Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
- did you ever see a charcoal burner's mound smoking?
Yes. Nick In the mid 1960s they were all over eastern Oklahoma and western Arkansas.
And also for days smoldering cow dung and horse "biscuits" after burning off
my fields as well as the smoke from the burn-off of hundreds of acres of straws that
give a quick nutrient boost to the croplands, and the sugarcane burn-off in the south.
 
OTOH, a fine-weave fire-heat-resistant fabric can eliminate visible smoke, but
the aerobic bacterial oxidation of brush-hogged fields is much more subtle as it releases
the CO2 into the atmosphere.
Some time ago I posted to this List that agricultural wastes and other biomass,
collected and stored can offset some of the fossil fuel CO2 burden.
 
Heat decomposes available nitrogen nutrients, but I gather that the Bio-Char
aids in keeping natural soil nitrogen nutrients available.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
To: fjsparber@earthlink.net
Sent: 2/15/2007 5:35:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

I'm not so sure that "in situ" slash and char of scrub on a large scale would be totally beneficial environmentally! - did you ever see a charcoal burner's mound smoking? That's why the "in vessel" pyrolysers, which have acid gas scrubbing and NOx removal, are favourite. Algae seemed better because it grows so d***ed quick and can be used to absorb CO2 both directly from fossil fuel power plants and, in ponds, from the atmosphere. With this implementation, the use of oil rich algae would not be necessary - just a high residual "dry weight" - it wouldn't matter if it was cellulose, carbohydrate or oil... The resulting charcoal "sand" or "dust" could be ploughed into marginal land reducing nitrogenous fertiliser input etc. I don't know what effect it would have on already fertile land...
 
Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 05:16:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FDFwUq015361; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:15:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FDFucc015331; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:15:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:15:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: Cc: "Vortex-L" References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:14:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75103.44E55360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75103.44E55360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Other minds are on this. Look at the first comment (from mbmurphy) below = this article on Branson's prize. http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17524/ ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75103.44E55360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Other minds are on this. Look at the = first comment=20 (from mbmurphy) below this article on Branson's prize.
 
 
http://www.te= chnologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17524/
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C75103.44E55360-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 05:39:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FDdAvn005535; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:39:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FDd9UJ005518; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:39:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04df01c75106$63d3ff80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:37:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1FDd7FA005498 Resent-Message-ID: <6XsVCD.A.FWB.8JG1FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sure, other minds have been thinking about this even before the Branson prize I am sure. We haven't got a solution yet, next step will be to do some calculations. Must be off. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: Cc: "Vortex-L" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Other minds are on this. Look at the first comment (from mbmurphy) below this article on Branson's prize. http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17524/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 05:47:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FDl1c0011294; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:47:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FDl0eB011274; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:47:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:46:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c75107$bf8b8040$a0037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:46:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C750D5.73C58890" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72803 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Pr.. Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C750D5.73C58890 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C750D5.73CA1C70" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C750D5.73CA1C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Great ideas for bio themes in aerobics but anerobics can also play in = the great game. The story behind the "Medina culture" which is produced by the firm in = Medina Texas for a bio-growth enhancer .. seems that back in the 1930's, = an ole time railroad brakeman that worked the Texas-Cal rails noticed = certain dry ponds in the desert had explosive growth after a rain. Taking a bucket full of muck back home, he produced a "culture" and the = liquified product was sprayed on test field at cotton planting time. Near Pt.Arther Texas, back in the early 1960's, a Chem engineer built a = radical new anerobic test digester system which he tested at the local = wastewater treatment plant.The solids were dispersed to a drying bed = similar to how they operated the aerobic plant. The anerobic solids bed = had a much higher plant growth that the aerobic solids. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C750D5.73CA1C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Great ideas for bio themes in aerobics but anerobics can also play = in the=20 great game.
 
The story behind the "Medina culture" which is produced by the = firm in=20 Medina Texas for a bio-growth enhancer .. seems that back in the 1930's, = an ole=20 time railroad brakeman that worked the Texas-Cal rails noticed certain = dry ponds=20 in the desert had explosive growth after a rain.
Taking a bucket full of muck back home, he produced a "culture" and = the=20 liquified product was sprayed on test field at cotton planting = time.
 
Near Pt.Arther Texas, back in the early 1960's, a Chem engineer = built a=20 radical new  anerobic test digester system which he tested at the = local=20 wastewater treatment plant.The solids were dispersed to a drying = bed =20 similar to how they operated the aerobic plant. The anerobic solids bed = had a=20 much higher plant growth that the aerobic solids.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C750D5.73CA1C70-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C750D5.73C58890 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c75107$be150ce0$a0037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C750D5.73C58890-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 11:32:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FJWcYC017578; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:32:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FJWa7A017554; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:32:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=OSLpbVVHDLGfIVneX5Lw1b5/VkWNm991BN3h8st4OgNb40vdMWBQIehY5lS7YVZRoVLL7n4ynd5z2hxkfrnXGOqdupdaU6J7a9jA/VVczeaei4iguwBu6KIb/zb//O4s6XFZxnN1Me5QKU7k/KfHcok1wkVIejazjTiXJYFi9Us= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:32:35 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72804 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: No Peak Oil Status: O X-Status: According to this article: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070214-cheap-gas.html Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 12:46:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FKk3B8009143; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:46:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FKk1Fe009101; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:46:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:43:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <020901c750f5$fc3d8bd0$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1FKjxnv008988 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72805 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Status: O X-Status: Gotta love those probabilities. With them you can save relativity from obscurity. Harry -------- Professor Resolves Einstein's Twin Paradox Science Daily — Subhash Kak, Delaune Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at LSU, recently resolved the twin paradox, known as one of the most enduring puzzles of modern-day physics. First suggested by Albert Einstein more than 100 years ago, the paradox deals with the effects of time in the context of travel at near the speed of light. Einstein originally used the example of two clocks -- one motionless, one in transit. He stated that, due to the laws of physics, clocks being transported near the speed of light would move more slowly than clocks that remained stationary. In more recent times, the paradox has been described using the analogy of twins. If one twin is placed on a space shuttle and travels near the speed of light while the remaining twin remains earthbound, the unmoved twin would have aged dramatically compared to his interstellar sibling, according to the paradox. "If the twin aboard the spaceship went to the nearest star, which is 4.45 light years away at 86 percent of the speed of light, when he returned, he would have aged 5 years. But the earthbound twin would have aged more than 10 years!" said Kak. The fact that time slows down on moving objects has been documented and verified over the years through repeated experimentation. But, in the previous scenario, the paradox is that the earthbound twin is the one who would be considered to be in motion -- in relation to the sibling -- and therefore should be the one aging more slowly. Einstein and other scientists have attempted to resolve this problem before, but none of the formulas they presented proved satisfactory. Kak's findings were published online in the International Journal of Theoretical Science, and will appear in the upcoming print version of the publication. "I solved the paradox by incorporating a new principle within the relativity framework that defines motion not in relation to individual objects, such as the two twins with respect to each other, but in relation to distant stars," said Kak. Using probabilistic relationships, Kak's solution assumes that the universe has the same general properties no matter where one might be within it. The implications of this resolution will be widespread, generally enhancing the scientific community's comprehension of relativity. It may eventually even have some impact on quantum communications and computers, potentially making it possible to design more efficient and reliable communication systems for space applications. Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by Louisiana State University. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 13:11:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FLAmtL004326; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:10:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FLAkkH004276; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:10:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:10:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:10:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:10:40 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1FLAffw004233 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72806 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Nick Palmer's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:14:48 -0000: Hi, [snip] I wouldn't get too hung up on this prize. It looks more like Branson buying cheap advertising. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 13:23:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FLMqKp000564; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:22:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FLMogv000539; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:22:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:22:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:22:45 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <020901c750f5$fc3d8bd0$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:22:44 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1FLMill000499 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72807 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:43:03 -0500: Hi, [snip] >"I solved the paradox by incorporating a new principle within >the relativity framework that defines motion not in relation to individual >objects, such as the two twins with respect to each other, but in relation >to distant stars," said Kak. [snip] ...IOW by throwing out the concept of relativity and introducing a special absolute frame of reference. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 13:33:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FLXXHa007571; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:33:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FLXVwt007529; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:33:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:33:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:33:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72808 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Gotta love those probabilities. > With them you can save relativity from obscurity. > > Harry > > -------- > Professor Resolves Einstein's Twin Paradox > > Science Daily — Subhash Kak, Delaune > > Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at LSU, Specializing in relativity, which is a branch of physics? Tensor calculus doesn't see a lot of use in CS/EE departments, FWIW. > recently resolved the twin paradox, known as one of the most enduring > puzzles of modern-day physics. > > First suggested by Albert Einstein more than 100 years ago, the paradox > deals with the effects of time in the context of travel at near the speed of > light. Einstein originally used the example of two clocks -- one motionless, > one in transit. He stated that, due to the laws of physics, clocks being > transported near the speed of light would move more slowly than clocks that > remained stationary. In more recent times, the paradox has been described > using the analogy of twins. If one twin is placed on a space shuttle and > travels near the speed of light while the remaining twin remains earthbound, > the unmoved twin would have aged dramatically compared to his interstellar > sibling, according to the paradox. This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem was in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The traveling twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, the symmetry is broken. The paths "close" -- the twins meet again -- which can't happen unless at least one of the twins accelerates. Invoking Mach's principle to try to "resolve" this seems kind of silly, since the "paradox" (which is not a paradox, anyway) exists in the SR model of the world even when there are just two items in the model: two clocks. You don't need to bring in the fixed stars to state the problem, nor to resolve it. What's more, if you start with a planet that's in motion with respect to the "fixed stars" and a "traveler" who stops relative to the "fixed stars", you find find yourself back where you started -- Mach's principle is kind of useless in general, IMHO, in that it never really explains anything, even when it seems to. > > "If the twin aboard the spaceship went to the nearest star, which is 4.45 > light years away at 86 percent of the speed of light, when he returned, he > would have aged 5 years. But the earthbound twin would have aged more than > 10 years!" said Kak. > > The fact that time slows down on moving objects has been documented and > verified over the years through repeated experimentation. But, in the > previous scenario, the paradox is that the earthbound twin is the one who > would be considered to be in motion -- in relation to the sibling -- and > therefore should be the one aging more slowly. Einstein and other scientists > have attempted to resolve this problem before, but none of the formulas they > presented proved satisfactory. This is false. > > Kak's findings were published online in the International Journal of > Theoretical Science, and will appear in the upcoming print version of the > publication. "I solved the paradox by incorporating a new principle within > the relativity framework that defines motion not in relation to individual > objects, such as the two twins with respect to each other, but in relation > to distant stars," said Kak. Using probabilistic relationships, Kak's > solution assumes that the universe has the same general properties no matter > where one might be within it. > > The implications of this resolution will be widespread, generally enhancing > the scientific community's comprehension of relativity. I doubt that a whole lot. > It may eventually > even have some impact on quantum communications and computers, potentially > making it possible to design more efficient and reliable communication > systems for space applications. > > Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by Louisiana > State University. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 13:49:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FLnBsM017245; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:49:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FLnARL017232; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:49:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:49:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:46:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-reply-to: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72809 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem was > in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The traveling > twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, the symmetry is > broken. That works in SR, but the solution is inconsistent with GR. harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 14:09:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FM92Pf023867; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:09:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FM91k5023845; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:09:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:09:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c7514d$e1b90840$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:05:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72810 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And, I suppose, Gate's foundation is also cheap advertising and Buffet's ante is conscience salve? At this juncture, we need all the initiatives we can get and I think it counter-productive to diss them. Branson's wealth is minor league compared to Gates and Buffet, but it is in the right direction. Or would you prefer a government grant? Mike Carrell ----------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > In reply to Nick Palmer's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:14:48 -0000: > Hi, > [snip] > I wouldn't get too hung up on this prize. It looks more like Branson > buying > cheap advertising. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 15:31:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FNVH2c032553; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:31:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FNVBsf032506; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:31:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:31:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D4ED38.30203@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:31:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72811 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem was >> in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The traveling >> twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, the symmetry is >> broken. > > That works in SR, but the solution is inconsistent with GR. Wrong. In fact the full solution can only be had using techniques commonly considered to be part of GR. Acceleration is acceleration, in either SR or GR. In either case you integrate the path length, using the pseudo-Riemannian metric of Minkoski, in order to find the elapsed proper time of either twin, and in either case the path which includes the acceleration comes out "shorter". A geodesic in GR is the longest distance between two points. Acceleration pushes you off the geodesic, as a result of which you follow a shorter path. If the two twins have worldlines which cross at two points, and if one accelerates while the other follows a geodesic, the one on the geodesic will "age" more. That's straight out of GR ... or SR, take your pick. If both accelerate, then neither follows a geodesic and you need to know the details of the problem to determine who ages more (if either). GR and SR only really differ when you introduce gravity, which doesn't enter into this problem. > > harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 15:40:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1FNeVUn005813; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:40:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1FNeTqe005795; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:40:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:40:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:38:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1FNeRmR005770 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72812 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox ... > This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem was > in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The traveling > twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, the symmetry is > broken. ... To be more precise the traveling twin is the only one who accelerates _wrt the initial common frame of reference_, that's what breaks the symmetry (otherwise one could argue that they both accelerate wrt each other) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 16:13:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G0Cr78026803; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:12:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G0Cpms026786; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:12:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:12:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:12:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72813 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin from Oz wrote:- <> Right, of course. A true solution would still be good value at $1 billion dollars or maybe even $1 trillion From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 16:43:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G0hOF3008830; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:43:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G0hNRh008809; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:43:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:43:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007801c75163$6fadc5e0$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <020901c750f5$fc3d8bd0$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:43:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:43:03 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >>"I solved the paradox by incorporating a new principle within >>the relativity framework that defines motion not in relation to individual >>objects, such as the two twins with respect to each other, but in relation >>to distant stars," said Kak. > [snip] > ..IOW by throwing out the concept of relativity and introducing a special > absolute frame of reference. :) > Funny, everything always seems to come back around to that. But its not an absolute frame of reference...no, just the "distant stars"... What does "distant stars" _really_ mean? This is a nice case of, we have a problem that makes us unhappy, so lets just move the problem way away, and say that it is solved, since it is now too far away to trouble us...out of sight, out of mind. Even worse is the 9 billion names for vacuum....Dirac sea, Spacetime, Space, physical vacuum, ZPF, ether, aether (to use the archaic spelling), ad infinatum ad tedium ad nauseam. So whats for breakfast? --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 17:00:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G102BI010815; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:00:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G0xqOm010739; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:59:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <056201c75165$7b33fd60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <4879889.1171507123020.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:57:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1G0xn1I010713 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: COP cop Status: O X-Status: Well then rather than acting as the almighty arbitor of what is true (OU) and what is not, such labs (there could be any number of them) could simply provide an uncommitted reference evaluation of your experiment's input and output energies. Measured joules in, measured joules out, surely there could be no objections to labs performing such a mundane task! Wouldn't people with a working OU device, or just a particularly efficient energy conversion device (e.g. a 40% efficiency solar cell), rush in to get recognition? The question of who pays remains open, and can be quite tricky. Would such labs help? Opinions/objections welcome. -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: COP cop > Michel Jullian writes: > > > >>I am not saying such a reference lab can be set up just like that, only that it would be possible, and useful. The US DOE . . . > > The US DoE is committed to destroying CF. It lies about its intentions, and performs "reviews" with the express purpose of getting rid of CF altogether. See: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LENRCANRthedoelies.pdf > > Putting the DoE in charge of this would be putting the fox in charge of the henhouse! If they found excess heat I am sure they would lie about it, and claim there was no excess heat, just as MIT and the Japanese NHE program did. > > >> . . . or better the UN energy department, could set up one. > > I know little about the UN, but my impression is that it is a dysfunctional organization overrun by politics, like the DoE. > > I think it is grave mistake to give any one organzation or one person any special authority to decide about cold fusion, or any other scientific or political controversy. We must have open competition of ideas, or unpopular ideas will be crushed. CF has only survived so far (barely) because Washington does not yet micromanage ALL scientific research. If the DoE or some other organization, or for that matter Scott Little, is set up as a final arbitor of what is true and what is not, I am sure that arbitor will his power to aggrandize himself and attack cold fusion. That is what people always do when they are given an opportunity to attack a highly unpopular idea. > > You have to realize, the public and the scientific community despise cold fusion. They will do anything within their power to destroy it. It only survives because there are still a few scientists who do not depend on Federal funding for their bread and butter. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 17:12:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G1CDge014191; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:12:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G1CCXe014180; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <056d01c75167$35520ec0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <020901c750f5$fc3d8bd0$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA> <007801c75163$6fadc5e0$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:10:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1G1CAXc014159 Resent-Message-ID: <6uD9nD.A.fdD.sTQ1FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Distant stars are not out of sight fortunately :) Nothing wrong with the concept, except it is not needed to solve the problem at hand, so the alledged "discovery" is caput mortuum. Laplace : "Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox > > >> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:43:03 -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>>"I solved the paradox by incorporating a new principle within >>>the relativity framework that defines motion not in relation to individual >>>objects, such as the two twins with respect to each other, but in relation >>>to distant stars," said Kak. >> [snip] >> ..IOW by throwing out the concept of relativity and introducing a special >> absolute frame of reference. :) >> > > Funny, everything always seems to come back around to that. But its not an > absolute frame of reference...no, just the "distant stars"... > > What does "distant stars" _really_ mean? This is a nice case of, we have a > problem that makes us unhappy, so lets just move the problem way away, and > say that it is solved, since it is now too far away to trouble us...out of > sight, out of mind. > > Even worse is the 9 billion names for vacuum....Dirac sea, Spacetime, Space, > physical vacuum, ZPF, ether, aether (to use the archaic spelling), ad > infinatum ad tedium ad nauseam. > > So whats for breakfast? > > --Kyle > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 17:29:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G1TULt002414; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:29:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G1TSUR002397; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:29:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:29:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:29:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72817 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Lifters Status: O X-Status: All, As far as the lifters go, I can say this: I have worked with these little gizmos quite a bit in the past, particularly several years ago when "Transdimensional" and all started the hype. I don't know what NASA has to say about them, nor do I particularly care, given their (NASA's) rather dubious track record. 1. They do not work in hard vacuum. This has been tested many times, Blazelabs has tested this, I have tested it, others have as well. It is pretty well determined that they do not function in hard vacuum. In very soft vacuums they do work, as there is still air to push around, of course. Around 1 - 0.1 torr, there is nothing but glow discharge. At harder vacuums, as the residual gas is taken away and the voltage across the electrodes again climbs to several kV, no thrust reappears. 2. They do not work when shielded with a dielectric shield THAT IS CARRIED ALONG RIGIDLY WITH THE LIFTER. Note the capitalization! Some have just covered one electrode or the other, or had the lifter lift inside a stationary box. This proves nothing. 3. If you put the dielectric shield too close to the electrodes, the lifter will still work. This has caused many a great deal of confusion. What seems to happen is a combination of things, induced charges on the dielectric shield, the fact that the electric field of these devices is very large and will "reach out" a long ways, etc. If the shield is too close to the electrodes, they can still be in touch with the environment external to the shield. 4. They do not work if you put them in a grounded metal cage. This was made of aluminum window screen, wrapped around a LDPE dielectric shield. If you ground the cage to HV+, no thrust. If you ground it to HV-, no thrust. If you ground it to 0V (I was using a bipolarity supply) you still get nothing. 5. I never had compasses malfunction or anything like that happen. I ran tests using voltages from 1kV up to a maximum of just over 200kV. These were not flyweight current supplies either like a VDG, these were brutal DC supplies that can kill you until you die from it. :) (cookie to whoever figures out what movie that line is from) The 200kV supply would bring the whole 700+ sq ft room up to potential. At night and with the lights off, the dirt accumulated in between the 1 sq ft vinyl floor tiles would emit pointlike corona discharges....looked like a bunch of miniature city blocks. Compasses still pointed north. 6. I used power supplies that had frequencies ranging from almost perfect DC to 60cps up to several tens of kcps. The straight DC always worked better at getting the lifter to "lift" in open air, but nothing made them lift when properly shielded. 7. It is not just ion wind, but a combination of things in addition to it: differential excitation of N2 and O2, the (far reaching) effects of the (large) electric field on surrounding air, etc. I never found anything unconventional in this. 8. For posting these findings to several Yahoo groups, I have been banned. I was informed that I was trying to impede the march of science, or somesuch. Been too many years to remember exactly, and I really don't care to recall those dark times. To be honest, I wish these damned little tinfoil and matchstick affairs had never surfaced. Now every man, woman, child, and fruit fly thinks they can have antigravity with three matches, a bit of aluminum foil and a piece of wire. And a computer monitor with the case broken off. If there is something to "electrogravity", this is not it, and all this is doing is making it harder for those of us looking at things that *might* be real to be able to present things, should they pan out. Cry wolf too many times, and no one is going to care even if you walk up to the village with a wolf on a leash and have trained it to go fetch. The lifter was not invented by "transdimensional" or whoever is latest claiming credit. It is actually called the "electrokinetic apparatus" and was invented by (yeah, you guessed it) Thomas Townsend Brown. But if you will actually take the time to read his patent, he doesn't call it antigravity, and refers to it as working within a dielectric fluid. Interplanetary space doth not a dielectric fluid make. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 17:38:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G1bu9B006086; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:37:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G1bsFJ006066; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:37:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009f01c7516b$0de57300$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <020901c750f5$fc3d8bd0$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA><007801c75163$6fadc5e0$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> <056d01c75167$35520ec0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:37:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox > Distant stars are not out of sight fortunately :) Depends on how close to the rather light pollutive city of Buffalo you are. ;) >Nothing wrong with the concept, except it is not needed to solve the >problem at hand, so the alledged "discovery" is caput mortuum. > Laplace : "Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" Hmmm...I also wonder what the alleged effect of this on quantum computers and communications will be, as the article stated. (I am being sarcastic...) It seems as if every time something is "discovered" it is said that it will have a big implication for quantum XYZ.... "Quantum" seems to be the new "Ain't"...its a word that is hard to define precisely, is used in many places where it doesn't belong, and in some circles you don't "fit in with the crowd" unless you use it. I'm going to go shovel the snow off my ~100 ft long driveway. I wonder if it will have important future implications for quantum computers? --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 18:08:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G28a9A002322; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:08:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G28Ycu002290; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:08:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:08:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <059301c7516f$1430ca30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:06:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1G28Vdt002233 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters Status: O X-Status: Easy: Hot Shots! Part Deux A few of your points below I don't agree with (see below) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:29 AM Subject: [Vo]: Lifters > All, > > As far as the lifters go, I can say this: I have worked with these little > gizmos quite a bit in the past, particularly several years ago when > "Transdimensional" and all started the hype. I don't know what NASA has to > say about them, nor do I particularly care, given their (NASA's) rather > dubious track record. > > 1. They do not work in hard vacuum. This has been tested many times, > Blazelabs has tested this, I have tested it, others have as well. It is > pretty well determined that they do not function in hard vacuum. In very > soft vacuums they do work, as there is still air to push around, of course. > Around 1 - 0.1 torr, there is nothing but glow discharge. At harder vacuums, > as the residual gas is taken away and the voltage across the electrodes > again climbs to several kV, no thrust reappears. > > 2. They do not work when shielded with a dielectric shield THAT IS CARRIED > ALONG RIGIDLY WITH THE LIFTER. Note the capitalization! Some have just > covered one electrode or the other, or had the lifter lift inside a > stationary box. This proves nothing. > > 3. If you put the dielectric shield too close to the electrodes, the lifter > will still work. This has caused many a great deal of confusion. What seems > to happen is a combination of things, induced charges on the dielectric > shield, the fact that the electric field of these devices is very large and > will "reach out" a long ways, etc. If the shield is too close to the > electrodes, they can still be in touch with the environment external to the > shield. > > 4. They do not work if you put them in a grounded metal cage. This was made > of aluminum window screen, wrapped around a LDPE dielectric shield. If you > ground the cage to HV+, no thrust. If you ground it to HV-, no thrust. If > you ground it to 0V (I was using a bipolarity supply) you still get nothing. They work fine in a grounded metal cage in my experience. In the experiments you describe it may be more a question of the LDPE stopping the wind? > 5. I never had compasses malfunction or anything like that happen. I ran > tests using voltages from 1kV up to a maximum of just over 200kV. These were > not flyweight current supplies either like a VDG, these were brutal DC > supplies that can kill you until you die from it. :) (cookie to whoever > figures out what movie that line is from) The 200kV supply would bring the > whole 700+ sq ft room up to potential. At night and with the lights off, the > dirt accumulated in between the 1 sq ft vinyl floor tiles would emit > pointlike corona discharges....looked like a bunch of miniature city blocks. > Compasses still pointed north. > > 6. I used power supplies that had frequencies ranging from almost perfect DC > to 60cps up to several tens of kcps. The straight DC always worked better at > getting the lifter to "lift" in open air, but nothing made them lift when > properly shielded. > > 7. It is not just ion wind, Balderdash :) It's as much ion wind as helicopters are propeller generated wind. > but a combination of things in addition to it: > differential excitation of N2 and O2, the (far reaching) effects of the > (large) electric field on surrounding air, etc. I never found anything > unconventional in this. > > 8. For posting these findings to several Yahoo groups, I have been banned. So was I :) Maybe also because I said what I thought about Naudin's scientific skills one or two times :) > I > was informed that I was trying to impede the march of science, or somesuch. > Been too many years to remember exactly, and I really don't care to recall > those dark times. > > To be honest, I wish these damned little tinfoil and matchstick affairs had > never surfaced. Now every man, woman, child, and fruit fly thinks they can > have antigravity with three matches, a bit of aluminum foil and a piece of > wire. And a computer monitor with the case broken off. If there is something > to "electrogravity", this is not it, and all this is doing is making it > harder for those of us looking at things that *might* be real to be able to > present things, should they pan out. Cry wolf too many times, and no one is > going to care even if you walk up to the village with a wolf on a leash and > have trained it to go fetch. > > The lifter was not invented by "transdimensional" or whoever is latest > claiming credit. It is actually called the "electrokinetic apparatus" and > was invented by (yeah, you guessed it) Thomas Townsend Brown. First ion wind devices are much older than that, cf Bondar's site, but admittedly they didn't fly (rotating nails this kind of stuff) > But if you > will actually take the time to read his patent, he doesn't call it > antigravity, and refers to it as working within a dielectric fluid. > Interplanetary space doth not a dielectric fluid make. > > --Kyle > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 18:37:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G2bO0s010572; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:37:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G2bLq0010548; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:37:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:37:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D518DC.6080802@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:37:16 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: Sent: Thursday, February > 15, 2007 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox ... > >> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem >> was in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The >> traveling twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, >> the symmetry is broken. > ... > > To be more precise the traveling twin is the only one who accelerates > _wrt the initial common frame of reference_, that's what breaks the > symmetry (otherwise one could argue that they both accelerate wrt > each other) No you could not. Acceleration is absolute, not relative. This is where Mach's principle starts looking totally silly. In a situation without gravity (which is what SR deals with) drop a ball. Does it fall? If so, then you're accelerating. You can perform this test without looking out a window or examining anything outside your own laboratory. That is what I mean when I say it is "absolute" -- either you _are_ accelerating or you are _not_, and simple tests can determine the difference (to a specified level of accuracy, of course). When you transform to accelerated coordinates many things change, including the metric. Neither Galilean relativity nor Einstein's relativity ever tried to pretend that accelerating and inertial frames were in all ways identical. Inertial coordinates are special, and that's what puts the SPECIAL into "special relativity" -- it's the limited form of the theory that applies to inertial coordinates. As it happens it can be applied to accelerating frames as well just by extending the math a bit, but to take the jump to include gravitation you need to introduce curvature and the field equations, and that's when special relativity is left behind. > > Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 18:56:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G2uVFn005126; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:56:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G2uSMl005101; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:56:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:56:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:53:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-reply-to: <45D4ED38.30203@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1G2uN6t005081 Resent-Message-ID: <_mzH6C.A.pPB.c1R1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem was >>> in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The traveling >>> twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, the symmetry is >>> broken. >> >> That works in SR, but the solution is inconsistent with GR. > > Wrong. In fact the full solution can only be had using techniques > commonly considered to be part of GR. > > Acceleration is acceleration, in either SR or GR. In either case you > integrate the path length, using the pseudo-Riemannian metric of > Minkoski, in order to find the elapsed proper time of either twin, and > in either case the path which includes the acceleration comes out "shorter". > > A geodesic in GR is the longest distance between two points. No, it is the shortest "distance" between two points on a spacetime manifold. > Acceleration pushes you off the geodesic, as a result of which you > follow a shorter path. If the two twins have worldlines which cross at > two points, and if one accelerates while the other follows a geodesic, > the one on the geodesic will "age" more. That's straight out of GR ... > or SR, take your pick. In GR, acceleration due to gravity is treated as indistinguishable from a manufactured acceleration. > If both accelerate, then neither follows a geodesic and you need to know > the details of the problem to determine who ages more (if either). > > GR and SR only really differ when you introduce gravity, which doesn't > enter into this problem. You can't ignore gravity. The raison d'être of GR is to explain gravity. Ignore gravity and you are back in the flat spacetime of SR. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 19:05:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G358sf016783; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:05:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G357Ag016762; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:05:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:05:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:02:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-reply-to: <009f01c7516b$0de57300$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > I'm going to go shovel the snow off my ~100 ft long driveway. I wonder if it > will have important future implications for quantum computers? > > --Kyle > No way. You need to be shovelling sh*t to have that affect. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 19:08:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G38goH018075; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:08:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G38eVI018058; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:08:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:08:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:08:03 -0600 Message-ID: <018201c75177$b511cff0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> Thread-Index: AcdRaqDUP/8XioP9RJ+xPlY+qEcLnQAC9vOQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Kyle, > 1. They do not work in hard vacuum. This has been tested many times, > Blazelabs has tested this, I have tested it, others have as well. It is > pretty well determined that they do not function in hard vacuum. In very > soft vacuums they do work, as there is still air to push around, of > course. > Around 1 - 0.1 torr, there is nothing but glow discharge. At harder > vacuums, > as the residual gas is taken away and the voltage across the electrodes > again climbs to several kV, no thrust reappears. What was the highest potential used in the vacuum experiments? As I see it, there is a balance between the charges of the lifter and the dipole structure of the surrounding medium. It is my belief that if you are going to increase the vacuum, then you also need to increase the potential. This is not because of ion wind, but because the air molecules become dipoles with much mass, which provide a more viscous dipole medium for the charges on the lifter to operate against. My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential. As I understand it, the hard vacuum experiments did not include an increase in potential. So naturally, if the medium is less dense the lifter has less to pull against and needs more potential. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 19:28:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G3S3L4023270; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:28:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G3S2No023246; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:28:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:28:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:25:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <0Q6dP.A.KrF.CTS1FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Some have just > covered one electrode or the other, or had the lifter lift inside a > stationary box. This proves nothing. Did they place the box (with lifter inside) on a scale? The weight should not change if it is ion wind. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 20:18:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G4Hpb3017449; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:17:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G4Hn59017436; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:17:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:17:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Ioisjff0wN6fdo0alNpM81dRumZP/V3hkOOhsn7UDEeaZi0+1Yt23ZVfjZ2PUYt+ZzUyV4xuxNQrZLzWeJffgaXQd+dRxg1Rm3pPl/xWS8pnSULVgrkGsi9BVY/2WigLzVDPgL3QWvR48DvX5QgOseoarzDVpEGuiBwXGYaRh9U= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:17:48 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_125_33233470.1171599468505" References: <009f01c7516b$0de57300$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_125_33233470.1171599468505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Twin paradox solved by a universal static aether adjustment to SR ;) SR is totally broken. And no inertial acceleration doesn't solve it, the twin at home is undergoing plenty of acceleration around the earth, around the sun, thermal and sound vibrations. Also the acceleration to light speed can be arbitrarily steep for a thought experiment so the accelerating, decelerating part of the trip could be no more than 1 sec total by anyones watch. You could also have two (very long) parallel trains with windows and clocks, this way you can see the rate of time of the other train as you might have left that carriage you started opposite a long way behind but a synchronized clock is always in view. Or what of the case of a near light speed orbit, you are always in view of the stationary mass you are orbiting and it can always see you with out any Doppler related time effects. It has never made sense and never will. Many experiments and observations show that the speed of light isn't always constant either, it's all bunk and obviously so once you see the holes. On 2/16/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > I'm going to go shovel the snow off my ~100 ft long driveway. I wonder > if it > > will have important future implications for quantum computers? > > > > --Kyle > > > > No way. > You need to be shovelling sh*t to have that affect. > ;-) > Harry > > ------=_Part_125_33233470.1171599468505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Twin paradox solved by a universal static aether adjustment to SR ;)

SR is totally broken.

And no inertial acceleration doesn't solve it, the twin at home is undergoing plenty of acceleration around the earth, around the sun, thermal and sound vibrations.
Also the acceleration to light speed can be arbitrarily steep for a thought experiment so the accelerating, decelerating part of the trip could be no more than 1 sec total by anyones watch.

You could also have two (very long) parallel trains with windows and clocks, this way you can see the rate of time of the other train as you might have left that carriage you started opposite a long way behind but a synchronized clock is always in view.

Or what of the case of a near light speed orbit, you are always in view of the stationary mass you are orbiting and it can always see you with out any Doppler related time effects.

It has never made sense and never will.

Many experiments and observations show that the speed of light isn't always constant either, it's all bunk and obviously so once you see the holes.


On 2/16/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:


> I'm going to go shovel the snow off my ~100 ft long driveway. I wonder if it
> will have important future implications for quantum computers?
>
> --Kyle
>

No way.
You need to be shovelling sh*t to have that affect.
;-)
Harry


------=_Part_125_33233470.1171599468505-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 21:02:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1G52XNU016550; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:02:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1G52VaZ016539; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:02:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D53AE3.3090005@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:02:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>> >>>> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem was >>>> in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The traveling >>>> twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, the symmetry is >>>> broken. >>> That works in SR, but the solution is inconsistent with GR. >> Wrong. In fact the full solution can only be had using techniques >> commonly considered to be part of GR. >> >> Acceleration is acceleration, in either SR or GR. In either case you >> integrate the path length, using the pseudo-Riemannian metric of >> Minkoski, in order to find the elapsed proper time of either twin, and >> in either case the path which includes the acceleration comes out "shorter". >> >> A geodesic in GR is the longest distance between two points. > > No, it is the shortest "distance" between two points on a spacetime > manifold. Work it out or look it up if you don't believe me. It's the path with maximal magnitude, not minimal. It's commonly referred to as "extremal" but unlike most "extremal" paths we deal with it's (locally) maximal, not (locally) minimal. Take a simple example: The metric, with c=1 and signature diag(1,-1,-1,-1), in 1 space dimension, can be written as dt^2 - dx^2. If I go directly from point (0,0), to point (5,3), the squared path length is 25 - 9 = 16 and elapsed proper time is 4. If, instead, I go from (0,0) to (2,1) and then from (2,1) to (5,3) (with a kink in the path), the squared path length is (4-1) + (9-4) = 8 which is smaller; the elapsed proper time is 2*sqrt(2), which is also smaller than 4. Again, the geodesic is the path which (locally) maximizes the proper time. (I can't cough up the "geodesic equation" to prove this in general without some time dredging around in my memory or some time looking at a book; maybe tomorrow.) > >> Acceleration pushes you off the geodesic, as a result of which you >> follow a shorter path. If the two twins have worldlines which cross at >> two points, and if one accelerates while the other follows a geodesic, >> the one on the geodesic will "age" more. That's straight out of GR ... >> or SR, take your pick. > > In GR, acceleration due to gravity is treated as indistinguishable from > a manufactured acceleration. In GR acceleration due to gravity appears as nonzero connection coefficients in the metric, which is also where you see the effects of a uniform "acceleration field". In that sense, they're indistinguishable. However, gravity due to real bodies also has tidal effects, which manifest themselves as nonzero curvature; that is _not_ the same as acceleration. Curvature can be tested for locally, and cannot be transformed away by careful choice of coordinates, unlike uniform acceleration. Curvature -- tidal effects -- cannot be handled in special relativity. > >> If both accelerate, then neither follows a geodesic and you need to know >> the details of the problem to determine who ages more (if either). >> >> GR and SR only really differ when you introduce gravity, which doesn't >> enter into this problem. > > You can't ignore gravity. You can in the twins problem; there isn't any. But in any case, gravity doesn't affect the fact that geodesics are paths which maximize the proper time -- that's true regardless of the presence of gravity. > The raison d'être of GR is to explain gravity. That's right. But you don't need it to resolve the twins problem, which takes place in flat space. > Ignore gravity and you are back in the flat spacetime of SR. > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 02:17:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GAHXtu009095; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:17:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GAHVso009058; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:17:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05d801c751b3$610baf20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D518DC.6080802@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:15:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GAHPpe009005 Resent-Message-ID: <2bWQLD.A.VNC.5SY1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox ... >>> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the problem >>> was in fact resolved something on the order of a century ago. The >>> traveling twin accelerates; the stay-at-home twin does not; thus, >>> the symmetry is broken. >> ... >> >> To be more precise the traveling twin is the only one who accelerates >> _wrt the initial common frame of reference_, that's what breaks the >> symmetry (otherwise one could argue that they both accelerate wrt >> each other) > > No you could not. Acceleration is absolute, not relative. ... Not in the general sense Stephen. _Geometrically_, both twins accelerate wrt each other, agreed? It's _acceleration wrt an inertial frame of reference_ which is absolute of course, hence my point. I wasn't contradicting you, just highlighting a point which may not be obvious to everyone. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 03:39:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GBcqdU009007; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:38:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GBcoSx008986; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:38:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:38:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05ee01c751bf$0473a680$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <018201c75177$b511cff0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GBckaM008953 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:08 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters ... > My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the > vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential. ... Multiply it by root 2 in fact. To maintain the same thrust, every time you halve the pressure you must double the current, as per the thrust formula I*d/mu where ion mobility mu is doubled (inversely proportional to air density). In order to double the current you must indeed increase voltage, but not by a factor two, only root 2 as the I(V) law is quadratic for a corona discharge. There is a brick wall limit to this scheme though: breakdown voltage goes down with pressure, so you can't increase voltage much, hardly at all in fact since a well designed lifter operates as close as possible to the breakdown voltage. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 04:15:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GCFPhb032603; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:15:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GCFNKW032588; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:15:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:15:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0b6e01c751c4$1de7aa30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:14:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GCFKXH032562 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Konarka, another printed solar cell company Status: O X-Status: Contrary to Nanosolar, thos guys print their PV material on conductive plastic http://www.konarka.com/technology/ Allowing flexible integration into products they say http://www.konarka.com/products/ Solar perspectives look brighter and brighter! -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 04:38:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GCc7Rs012816; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:38:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GCc4ga012774; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:38:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:38:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ushDXVxcl/7JMImVeVPxrFDmJEUTCBleXHT+s5S6JT6iqJl60D10+FwrAAVFX1NuPJIgG95ejQD8ws49ydtizlnJlBrdL0qHoauwyriCq6vvLDLX3+pEwPRlhW7yvidgGz5FddwQQeMcmvJtOY4rfFZXIN3zgSbdeA584zvBtdc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:38:01 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-Reply-To: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: <2JofpC.A.bHD.rWa1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/15/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > All, > > As far as the lifters go, I can say this: I have worked with these little > gizmos quite a bit in the past, particularly several years ago when > "Transdimensional" and all started the hype. I don't know what NASA has to > say about them, nor do I particularly care, given their (NASA's) rather > dubious track record. Kyle, Here's what NASA has to say about them in their patent. I can find no reference to ionic wind in it: http://snipurl.com/1aef8 "United States Patent 6,317,310 Campbell November 13, 2001 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Apparatus and method for generating thrust using a two dimensional, asymmetrical capacitor module Abstract A capacitor module system is provided for creating a thrust force. The system includes a capacitor module provided with a first conductive element having a cylindrical geometry. The first conductive element can be a hollow cylinder or a solid cylinder. The capacitor module also includes a second conductive element axially spaced from the first conductive element and of smaller axial extent. The second conductive element can be a flat disk, a dome, or a conductive tip at the end of a dielectric rod. A dielectric element is disposed between the first conductive element and the second conductive element. The system also includes a high voltage source having first and second terminals connected respectively to the first and second conductive elements. The high voltage source applies a high voltage to the conductive elements of sufficient value to create a thrust force on the module inducing movement thereof. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inventors: Campbell; Jonathan W. (Harvest, AL) Assignee: The United States of America as represented by the Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (Washington, DC) Appl. No.: 09/520,817 Filed: March 8, 2000 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Current U.S. Class: 361/306.1 ; 361/811 Current International Class: H02N 1/00 (20060101) Field of Search: 361/306.1,15,16,17,715,821,311 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- References Cited [Referenced By] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. Patent Documents 4392179 July 1983 Nelson et al. Primary Examiner: Dinkins; Anthony Attorney, Agent or Firm: McGroary; James J. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Government Interests -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ORIGIN OF THE INVENTION This invention was made by an employee of the United States Government and may be manufactured and used by or for the Government for Governmental purposes without the payment of royalties. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Claims -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is claimed is: 1. A capacitor module system for creating a thrust, said system comprising: a capacitor module comprising a first conductive element having a cylindrical geometry; a second conductive element axially spaced from said first conductive element and having a geometry of smaller axial extent than said first conductive element; and a dielectric element disposed between said first conductive element and said second conductive element so as to form the capacitor module; and, a high voltage source, having first and second terminals connected respectively to said first and second conductive elements, for applying a high voltage to said conductive elements of sufficient value to create a thrust force on said module inducing movement thereof. " From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 04:44:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GCiQpC017257; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:44:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GCiMjD017212; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:44:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:44:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:41:38 -0600 Message-ID: <003a01c751c7$d4ee0960$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <05ee01c751bf$0473a680$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdRv7Ax9MEYCI2zQDSedVSDp5gd4wAB4vvQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > ... > > My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the > > vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential. > ... > > Multiply it by root 2 in fact. To maintain the same thrust, every time you > halve the pressure you must double the current, as per the thrust formula > I*d/mu where ion mobility mu is doubled (inversely proportional to air > density). In order to double the current you must indeed increase voltage, > but not by a factor two, only root 2 as the I(V) law is quadratic for a > corona discharge. Thanks, I wasn't aware of this reasoning. So the question stands for Kyle, was the vacuum experiment properly conducted? Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily interpret as being ion wind? Why can't the force term refer to the force between the ions on the lifter and the electrostatic dipoles in the space surrounding it? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 06:50:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GEoIGX019506; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:50:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GEoDhq019433; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:50:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:50:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16af01c751d9$be5b5c40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <003a01c751c7$d4ee0960$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:50:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_16AB_01C751E2.1FCC4D10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_16AB_01C751E2.1FCC4D10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_16AC_01C751E2.1FCC4D10" ------=_NextPart_001_16AC_01C751E2.1FCC4D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> ...the thrust formula >> I*d/mu where ion mobility mu... > Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily > interpret as being ion wind? ... > Dave Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if = you do the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the = 16 kB gif image makes it to the list) Michel ------=_NextPart_001_16AC_01C751E2.1FCC4D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> ...the thrust formula
>> I*d/mu = where ion=20 mobility mu...

> Also, for you Michel, why does the ion = mobility=20 equation necessarily
> interpret as being ion wind?
...
> Dave

Because ion [induced] wind yields = exactly the=20 above thrust formula if you do the maths, here is an elegant=20 derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 kB gif image makes it to the=20 list)
 
Michel
 
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vdmc3dme/dmgHdqiPdqkXdqmfdqondqqvdplkwAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_16AB_01C751E2.1FCC4D10-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 06:56:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GErEP3022310; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:56:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GEWsCR000621; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:32:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:32:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAL9P1UXLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANjlkBASqSeQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,180,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="777442914:sNHT28194400" Message-ID: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:32:42 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and all the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. Are we sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is no self motion visible in those pictures? The little arm on the right is a classic escapement that allows the magnet to push the disc its mounted on a few degrees. A spring then returns it to the start position. in effect we have a retarded cycle with two springs rocking a disc back and forth in the plane of the disc, in this case one of the springs is a magnet. All that's nothing new?! If its legitimate then these images are intentionally lacking a key component. The bit that moves the escapement up and down with no external input of energy: i.e. fingers or tweezers. 1600th century clockwork. If it is that simple the worlds scientific community will have a complete and total fit. With wood, brass and twine Leanado Davinchi could have built the thing. Terry Blanton wrote: > Well, the Flickr photos are still there; so, how 'bout my original > request? :-) > > Terry > > On 2/11/07, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >> There's a lot of discussion on the Steorn forum about how this really >> should >> not be made public. Maybe they killed it :-( . >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] >> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:51 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >> >> >> This is very odd. >> >> I tried accessing MPG video at the relativity.ca web site again, and now >> appears to be UserID & Password protected. >> >> What's going on? >> >> Regards, >> Steven Vincent Johnson >> www.OrionWokrs.com >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] >> > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:26 PM >> > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >> > >> > >> > Try VLC . it's free :-) . >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] >> > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:25 PM >> > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >> > >> > >> > Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my >> > quicktime player. >> > Any others? >> > >> > Regards, >> > Steven Vincent Johnoson >> > www.OrionWorks.com >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] >> > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM >> > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >> > > >> > > >> > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: >> > > >> > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] >> > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM >> > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> > > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ >> > > >> > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could >> stream >> > > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. >> > > >> > > Terry >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 07:03:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GF0IHc029337; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:03:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GEsNP2023794; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:54:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:54:06 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >Robin from Oz wrote:- ><cheap advertising.>> > >Right, of course. A true solution would still be good value at $1 >billion dollars or maybe even $1 trillion It would take billions or perhaps trillions of dollars to implement a solution, but $25 million might be a great help to someone trying to scale up a potential solution, or convert it from a prototype to something practical. For example, suppose Branson awards this to a plug-in hybrid research company, or to a company that has demonstrated an array of 5 prototype solar-thermal stirling engine generators. Research in these two areas is still done on a small scale, and $25 million would still be a big contribution. Both have been demonstrated in practical devices, although not in mass-produced devices. They could both reduce fossil fuel consumption significantly. I think solar-electric is promising for places like Los Angeles or Saudi Arabia, and on a large scale it would greatly reduce coal consumption. For cold fusion $25 million would be like manna from heaven, needless to say. But it ain't happening. Branson has never heard of cold fusion, and if he does hear of it, his scientific advisors will tell him that it is fraud, lunacy, all a mistake, etc., etc. So, I say kudos to Branson. One kudo, anyway. Or as the Japanese say, kudoi! (Enough already!) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 07:10:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GFA3vr004190; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:10:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GF9xn0004124; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:09:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:09:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D5C93B.6090308@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:09:47 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D518DC.6080802@pobox.com> <05d801c751b3$610baf20$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <05d801c751b3$610baf20$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0hD-kB.A.UAB.Elc1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: Sent: Friday, February > 16, 2007 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox > > > ... >>>> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the >>>> problem was in fact resolved something on the order of a >>>> century ago. The traveling twin accelerates; the stay-at-home >>>> twin does not; thus, the symmetry is broken. >>> ... >>> >>> To be more precise the traveling twin is the only one who >>> accelerates _wrt the initial common frame of reference_, that's >>> what breaks the symmetry (otherwise one could argue that they >>> both accelerate wrt each other) >> No you could not. Acceleration is absolute, not relative. > ... > > Not in the general sense Stephen. _Geometrically_, both twins > accelerate wrt each other, agreed? You are talking about what we might call "coordinate acceleration", which, I would claim, is a somewhat nonstandard use of the term "acceleration". > > It's _acceleration wrt an inertial frame of reference_ which is > absolute of course, hence my point. I wasn't contradicting you, just > highlighting a point which may not be obvious to everyone. Acceleration, as I have generally seen the term used in casual conversation (and in discussions of the twins paradox), is that which is measured by an accelerometer. An accelerometer is a purely "local" instrument (which, of course, can't tell the difference between gravity and acceleration). (d/dt)(dq/dt) where "q" is an arbitrary general coordinate is not usually referred to simply as "acceleration". And, when the word "acceleration" /is/ used that way, it often leads to interminable pointless arguments about the difference between a "real force" and a "fictitious force", as well as lengthy discussion of the true meaning of "centrifugal force" :-) > > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 07:15:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GFFNLr010262; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:15:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GFFKLV010211; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:15:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:15:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:14:51 -0600 Message-ID: <004a01c751dd$41b56e20$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01C751AA.F71E0B60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <16af01c751d9$be5b5c40$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdR2kLfamYcPv59Rm6yI7p96DkdgwAAluBQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C751AA.F71E0B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michel, The only problem with ion wind theory is that there isn't enough thrust in the ions to cause a lifter to lift. What's more, you can reverse the polarity of the wire and broad conductor and the lift is the same. If electrons were being emitted as ion wind in one case, they would not be in the other case. Since there are no positively charged electrons and any protons would have 1836 times the mass of the electron and give different results, the ion wind theory is bust. Just because a mathematical formula gives a number doesn't mean that number can be applied to a non-existent phenomenon. Dave > Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily > interpret as being ion wind? ... > Dave Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if you do the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 kB gif image makes it to the list) Michel ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C751AA.F71E0B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Michel,

 

The only problem with ion wind = theory is that there isn’t enough thrust in the ions to cause a lifter to = lift.  What’s more, you can reverse the polarity of the wire and broad = conductor and the lift is the same.  If electrons were being emitted as ion = wind in one case, they would not be in the other case.  Since there are no = positively charged electrons and any protons would have 1836 times the mass of the electron and give different results, the ion wind theory is = bust.

 

Just because a mathematical formula = gives a number doesn’t mean that number can be applied to a non-existent phenomenon.

 

Dave

 


> Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation = necessarily
> interpret as being ion wind?

...

> Dave

Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula = if you do the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the = 16 kB gif image makes it to the list)

 

Michel

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C751AA.F71E0B60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 07:30:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GFTliU020770; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:29:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GFTkfG020751; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:29:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:29:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=f0UD9fLQd6AuZN+Ds4oNROu0RNgHKSCbqmYMp3wIo6mroziBd2zwZBYcM6sawQ+YQM7f0ILkc9riIWmabxP/Sf5Li/YnfS/5MCRWGn0uRMAShyFDv47I/lLsnb98xeAyMtYM7ZvKB5sktOgctDUqSCo0rdvRiqOgpNqFsZZ3XoI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:29:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos In-Reply-To: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: <1c2OIC.A.LEF.q3c1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/16/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and all > the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. Are we > sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is no self > motion visible in those pictures? Yes, Crank is an avid poster on the Steorn forum and is on the Steorn party video. As I recall, she was a mature redhead. I believe Grimer has confirmed the images are of the same device which he saw at the Kinetica presentation in London. BTW, Frank is one of the blessed 200 who will be a part of the development committee which they have nicknamed SPUD. I forget what that means. I don't think Grimer reads Vortex much lately. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 07:59:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GFx9uO008412; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:59:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GFx69I008374; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:59:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:59:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D5D4C3.2030005@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:58:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos References: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1--2VD.A.pCC.JTd1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and all > the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. Are we > sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is no self > motion visible in those pictures? Is that really a surprise? I've looked at the information on the Steorn website and have never seen anything that actually /said/ they have anything which self-runs. I know opinions here differed, and there are some ambiguous statements which one could interpret that way, but I saw nothing clear and explicit to that effect. AFAICT, all they have is something which, when driven externally, apparently produces more power on the shaft out than is applied on the shaft in. Of course, with such a device the torque varies significantly as the shaft rotates, so measuring the power in and power out can be a tad dicey. > The little arm on the right is a > classic escapement that allows the magnet to push the disc its mounted > on a few degrees. A spring then returns it to the start position. in > effect we have a retarded cycle with two springs rocking a disc back and > forth in the plane of the disc, in this case one of the springs is a > magnet. All that's nothing new?! If its legitimate then these images > are intentionally lacking a key component. The bit that moves the > escapement up and down with no external input of energy: i.e. fingers or > tweezers. 1600th century clockwork. > If it is that simple the worlds scientific community will have a > complete and total fit. With wood, brass and twine Leanado Davinchi > could have built the thing. > > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Well, the Flickr photos are still there; so, how 'bout my original >> request? :-) >> >> Terry >> >> On 2/11/07, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >> >>> There's a lot of discussion on the Steorn forum about how this really >>> should >>> not be made public. Maybe they killed it :-( . >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] >>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:51 PM >>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >>> >>> >>> This is very odd. >>> >>> I tried accessing MPG video at the relativity.ca web site again, and now >>> appears to be UserID & Password protected. >>> >>> What's going on? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Steven Vincent Johnson >>> www.OrionWokrs.com >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] >>> > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:26 PM >>> > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >>> > >>> > >>> > Try VLC . it's free :-) . >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] >>> > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:25 PM >>> > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >>> > >>> > >>> > Unfortunately, the downloaded MPG file doesn't play on my >>> > quicktime player. >>> > Any others? >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > Steven Vincent Johnoson >>> > www.OrionWorks.com >>> > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns@cox.net] >>> > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 2:52 PM >>> > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> > > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Woops, wrong one. Try this: >>> > > >>> > > http://relativity.ca/kineticatoy.mpg >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] >>> > > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:29 PM >>> > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> > > Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Photos >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/72732035@N00/show/ >>> > > >>> > > Shows what appears to be test rig 1 and 3. Maybe someone could >>> stream >>> > > these photos together to see the motion of the devices. >>> > > >>> > > Terry >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 08:12:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GGCMoj026858; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:12:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GGCHC4026798; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:12:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:12:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:05:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GGC3vn026667 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I say kudos too. But plug-in hybrids or CF wouldn't qualify I am afraid. Unless I misunderstood the rules, what Branson is after is a technology to pump the CO2 out of the atmosphere, not to reduce emissions. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > Nick Palmer wrote: > >>Robin from Oz wrote:- >><>cheap advertising.>> >> >>Right, of course. A true solution would still be good value at $1 >>billion dollars or maybe even $1 trillion > > It would take billions or perhaps trillions of dollars to implement a > solution, but $25 million might be a great help to someone trying to > scale up a potential solution, or convert it from a prototype to > something practical. For example, suppose Branson awards this to a > plug-in hybrid research company, or to a company that has > demonstrated an array of 5 prototype solar-thermal stirling engine > generators. Research in these two areas is still done on a small > scale, and $25 million would still be a big contribution. Both have > been demonstrated in practical devices, although not in mass-produced > devices. They could both reduce fossil fuel consumption > significantly. I think solar-electric is promising for places like > Los Angeles or Saudi Arabia, and on a large scale it would greatly > reduce coal consumption. > > For cold fusion $25 million would be like manna from heaven, needless > to say. But it ain't happening. Branson has never heard of cold > fusion, and if he does hear of it, his scientific advisors will tell > him that it is fraud, lunacy, all a mistake, etc., etc. > > So, I say kudos to Branson. One kudo, anyway. Or as the Japanese say, > kudoi! (Enough already!) > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 08:17:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GGHEkS030618; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:17:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GGHCOX030597; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:17:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16e001c751e5$e7012100$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D518DC.6080802@pobox.com> <05d801c751b3$610baf20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D5C93B.6090308@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:17:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GGHAA8030566 Resent-Message-ID: <9HX5vD.A.BeH.Ikd1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > You are talking about what we might call "coordinate acceleration" Yes indeed Stephen, we might call it thus, although just "acceleration" is better and simpler. Time derivative of velocity in an arbitrary frame, not just an inertial one. That's the most general definition of "acceleration", that's why I said "Not in the general sense": ac·cel·er·a·tion n. 1. a. The act of accelerating. b. The process of being accelerated. 2. Abbr. a Physics The rate of change of velocity with respect to time. But enough bickering. Talking about "centrifugal force", you do know that by running around a bucket of water you incurve the water as if it was centrifuged don't you? :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> To: Sent: Friday, February >> 16, 2007 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox >> >> >> ... >>>>> This is not a paradox, and the "paradoxical" nature of the >>>>> problem was in fact resolved something on the order of a >>>>> century ago. The traveling twin accelerates; the stay-at-home >>>>> twin does not; thus, the symmetry is broken. >>>> ... >>>> >>>> To be more precise the traveling twin is the only one who >>>> accelerates _wrt the initial common frame of reference_, that's >>>> what breaks the symmetry (otherwise one could argue that they >>>> both accelerate wrt each other) >>> No you could not. Acceleration is absolute, not relative. >> ... >> >> Not in the general sense Stephen. _Geometrically_, both twins >> accelerate wrt each other, agreed? > > You are talking about what we might call "coordinate acceleration", > which, I would claim, is a somewhat nonstandard use of the term > "acceleration". > >> >> It's _acceleration wrt an inertial frame of reference_ which is >> absolute of course, hence my point. I wasn't contradicting you, just >> highlighting a point which may not be obvious to everyone. > > Acceleration, as I have generally seen the term used in casual > conversation (and in discussions of the twins paradox), is that which is > measured by an accelerometer. An accelerometer is a purely "local" > instrument (which, of course, can't tell the difference between gravity > and acceleration). > > (d/dt)(dq/dt) where "q" is an arbitrary general coordinate is not > usually referred to simply as "acceleration". And, when the word > "acceleration" /is/ used that way, it often leads to interminable > pointless arguments about the difference between a "real force" and a > "fictitious force", as well as lengthy discussion of the true meaning of > "centrifugal force" :-) > > >> >> Michel >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 08:38:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GGcFOu022857; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:38:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GGcEiD022821; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:38:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:38:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:38:07 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GGcAgc022710 Resent-Message-ID: <9IL1AB.A.XkF.13d1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >I say kudos too. But plug-in hybrids or CF >wouldn't qualify I am afraid. Unless I >misunderstood the rules, what Branson is after >is a technology to pump the CO2 out of the atmosphere, not to reduce emissions. Huh. I am not surprised, but that's silly. The two are functionally equivalent. It is like making a distinction between filling a leaking bucket faster or plugging the hole -- or between giving a person a "tax break" or handing him a check from the government. If you reduce emissions enough, nature will pump the extra CO2 out of the atmosphere soon enough. The best method to "pump" CO2 out of the air is obvious, in any case. You reforest large areas of formerly verdant land. This solves many problems at the same time. Reforestation of desert areas has lately been making more progress than people predicted. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/world/africa/11niger.html "In Niger, Trees and Crops Turn Back the Desert GUIDAN BAKOYE, Niger ­ In this dust-choked region, long seen as an increasingly barren wasteland decaying into desert, millions of trees are flourishing, thanks in part to poor farmers whose simple methods cost little or nothing at all. Better conservation and improved rainfall have led to at least 7.4 million newly tree-covered acres in Niger, researchers have found, achieved largely without relying on the large-scale planting of trees or other expensive methods often advocated by African politicians and aid groups for halting desertification, the process by which soil loses its fertility. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:02:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GH2UMm011844; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GH2Spi011806; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:02:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GH2QYA011776 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize ... > If you reduce > emissions enough, nature will pump the extra CO2 > out of the atmosphere soon enough. They are talking about 1000 years at least for natural elimination :/ > > The best method to "pump" CO2 out of the air is > obvious, in any case. You reforest large areas of > formerly verdant land. This solves many problems I agree this should be done of course, but phytoplankton harvesting/processing/sequestering might be a more powerful way, considering we have more ocean surface available than land surface. In any case photosynthesis one way or another is most probably at least part of the solution. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:04:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GH4BZn012987; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:04:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GH49bh012964; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16f101c751ec$75af8f80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <004a01c751dd$41b56e20$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:04:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GH45AV012923 Resent-Message-ID: <08kBwC.A.gKD.IQe1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good try Dave, but you need to learn a bit more about corona discharges. As a matter of fact you do get air entraining ion flow, aka ion wind or electric wind, in both corona polarities: +ve ions when the wire is +ve wrt the skirt, -ve ions when you reverse polarity. Air ions of both signs have about the same mobility, hence the unchanged lift. Of course as you correctly pointed out the wire cannot emit ions. It can only emit or receive electrons, and that's what it does actually at the end of the complex chemistry (about 40 reactions) occurring in the thin neutral plasma sheath (bright purple glow) around the wire. It's the plasma sheath that emits the monopolar (+ve or -ve but not both) ions in fact, not the wire. If you're interested in a straightforward derivation of some of the characteristics (thickness, voltage drop) of the plasma sheath, here is one I wrote some time ago http://www.blazelabs.com/coronaradius.pdf Michel P.S. I wonder what's so hideous about EHD that so many apparently sensible people want to debunk it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > Hi Michel, > > > > The only problem with ion wind theory is that there isn't enough thrust in > the ions to cause a lifter to lift. What's more, you can reverse the > polarity of the wire and broad conductor and the lift is the same. If > electrons were being emitted as ion wind in one case, they would not be in > the other case. Since there are no positively charged electrons and any > protons would have 1836 times the mass of the electron and give different > results, the ion wind theory is bust. > > > > Just because a mathematical formula gives a number doesn't mean that number > can be applied to a non-existent phenomenon. > > > > Dave > > > > >> Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily >> interpret as being ion wind? > > ... > >> Dave > > Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if you do > the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 kB gif > image makes it to the list) > > > > Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:29:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GHSqBK028113; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:28:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GHSo51028085; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:28:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:28:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:27:25 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > If you reduce > > emissions enough, nature will pump the extra CO2 > > out of the atmosphere soon enough. > >They are talking about 1000 years at least for natural elimination :/ More like 300 to 600 years by my calculations. See chapters 8 and 9 in my book: Suppose the goal is to reforest 3.9 million square kilometers, an area the size of U.S. farmland. This could be done with conventional techniques and CF- or fission-powered desalination. A temperate forest sequesters 1 to 10 of carbon per hectare, per year. After 30 years, when the forest matures, that comes to about 150 tons per hectare. So the new forest would sequester 30 billion tons. Human activity adds 6.5 billion tons per year, so the forests would reverse the effects of 4 or 5 years of human activity. Suppose the goal is to remove all CO2 added since the beginning of the industrial revolution (1800). Bear in mind that releases before 1950 were much lower than now, and the whole of the 19th century was probably less than a decade now. Anyway, as trees mature and die off, you would cut the deadwood in both the new and old forests and bury the wood deep underground. This would not be disruptive even with today's technology, and it could be made far less disruptive. Assume you do this for area about 8 million square kilometers, you would have to repeat about 10 cycles to bury all of CO2. That would take about 300 years. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:38:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GHcldY001747; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:38:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GHckte001734; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:38:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:38:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,181,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="1409250:sNHT20566770" Message-ID: <45D5EC21.5070308@teksavvy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:41 -0500 From: peatbog User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos References: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> <45D5D4C3.2030005@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45D5D4C3.2030005@pobox.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > I've looked at the information on the Steorn website and have never seen > anything that actually /said/ they have anything which self-runs. You're way off on that. the CEO has said several times that it is self-running. I can't point you to the references, but I know I've seen them. Ask on the forum if you want to pin it down. Wesley Bruce wrote: >> The bit that moves the escapement up and down with no >> external input of energy: i.e. fingers or tweezers. 1600th century >> clockwork. >> If it is that simple the worlds scientific community will have a >> complete and total fit. With wood, brass and twine Leanado Davinchi >> could have built the thing. >From what the ceo has said, it's simple, but I have the feeling it's simple once you know how. The resin block holds a set of magnets in a configuration that allows for the OU. Whatever the configuration is, it's 3-dimensional. He's also said that nothing he has talked about or shown, is anywhere near giving away what the magic configuration is. In case you're interested, the most interesting speculation I've seen on the forum as to how the device works, is this thread: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=36611&page=1 It's neat the way he makes use of the 'lag' or 'viscosity' of magnets in his speculation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:42:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GHg0Ol003825; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:42:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GHfwC9003797; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:41:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:41:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:41:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GHfsWg003761 Resent-Message-ID: <_E_QVC.A.R7.lze1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's a few hundred years between friends? ;-) How long would it take by harvesting algae on a large scale then? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > If you reduce >> > emissions enough, nature will pump the extra CO2 >> > out of the atmosphere soon enough. >> >>They are talking about 1000 years at least for natural elimination :/ > > More like 300 to 600 years by my calculations. See chapters 8 and 9 in my book: > > Suppose the goal is to reforest 3.9 million square kilometers, an > area the size of U.S. farmland. This could be done with conventional > techniques and CF- or fission-powered desalination. A temperate > forest sequesters 1 to 10 of carbon per hectare, per year. After 30 > years, when the forest matures, that comes to about 150 tons per > hectare. So the new forest would sequester 30 billion tons. Human > activity adds 6.5 billion tons per year, so the forests would reverse > the effects of 4 or 5 years of human activity. > > Suppose the goal is to remove all CO2 added since the beginning of > the industrial revolution (1800). Bear in mind that releases before > 1950 were much lower than now, and the whole of the 19th century was > probably less than a decade now. Anyway, as trees mature and die off, > you would cut the deadwood in both the new and old forests and bury > the wood deep underground. This would not be disruptive even with > today's technology, and it could be made far less disruptive. Assume > you do this for area about 8 million square kilometers, you would > have to repeat about 10 cycles to bury all of CO2. That would take > about 300 years. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:48:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GHm5Ga008539; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:48:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GHm0wc008481; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:48:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:47:27 -0600 Message-ID: <005601c751f2$92d0a030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <16f101c751ec$75af8f80$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdR7N8SaMuCQsnURl2Ajw0LQQcVtQABWlsQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > Good try Dave, but you need to learn a bit more about corona discharges. Was it necessary to make this dig? > If you're interested in a straightforward derivation of some of the > characteristics (thickness, voltage drop) of the plasma sheath, here > is one I wrote some time ago I would have been interested, but I think I would like to stay as far away from you and your condescending attitude as possible. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 10:26:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GIPqOo014481; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:25:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GIPoJf014461; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:25:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:25:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:25:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <0e0J0D.A.0hD.ucf1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I meant $1 billion dollars for the prize! Also the challenge is to come up with a way of REMOVING millions of tonnes of CO2 from the atmosphere, not just ways to put less of it in... JR <> This is true in the tropics but the further North or South one goes, the less global cooling results because of the albedo effect.. Planting more forest in, say, Canada, can actually be a source of global warming - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset and scroll down to "Climate impacts" Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 10:42:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GIgbon022511; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:42:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GIgZt5022488; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:42:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:42:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <172001c751fa$350ac2c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <005601c751f2$92d0a030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:42:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GIgTqE022450 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave, Honestly it was not a dig, a mere statement of a fact. The fact is not a disgrace either, no-one can be expected to know everything. The remark might have been legitimately interpreted as an insult if I had stopped at that maybe, but instead I endeavoured to explain what you had missed in your shrewd objection that wires can't possibly emit positive stuff. However if you still feel vindicated, please accept my apologies. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:47 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > Hi Michel, > >> Good try Dave, but you need to learn a bit more about corona discharges. > > Was it necessary to make this dig? > >> If you're interested in a straightforward derivation of some of the >> characteristics (thickness, voltage drop) of the plasma sheath, here >> is one I wrote some time ago > > I would have been interested, but I think I would like to stay as far away > from you and your condescending attitude as possible. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 10:51:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GIp6kT028871; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:51:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GIp4qx028841; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:51:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:51:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <172b01c751fb$6626f9e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <005601c751f2$92d0a030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <172001c751fa$350ac2c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:50:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GIp00j028730 Resent-Message-ID: <6aRtK.A.lCH.X0f1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops sorry my English, I meant insulted not vindicated. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > Dave, > > Honestly it was not a dig, a mere statement of a fact. The fact is not a disgrace either, no-one can be expected to know everything. The remark might have been legitimately interpreted as an insult if I had stopped at that maybe, but instead I endeavoured to explain what you had missed in your shrewd objection that wires can't possibly emit positive stuff. However if you still feel vindicated, please accept my apologies. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Thomson" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:47 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> Hi Michel, >> >>> Good try Dave, but you need to learn a bit more about corona discharges. >> >> Was it necessary to make this dig? >> >>> If you're interested in a straightforward derivation of some of the >>> characteristics (thickness, voltage drop) of the plasma sheath, here >>> is one I wrote some time ago >> >> I would have been interested, but I think I would like to stay as far away >> from you and your condescending attitude as possible. >> >> Dave >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 10:54:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GIsYk8000489; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:54:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GIsVU5000455; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:54:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:54:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:39:18 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >Planting more forest in, say, Canada, can >actually be a source of global warming - see >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset and scroll down to "Climate >impacts" That assertion is a lot of crap. The whole article seems to be suffused with anti-environmentalist nonsense. I am certain that returning Canada, the U.S. and other temperate areas to their original forestation would sequester gigantic amounts of CO2 and help reverse global warming. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 11:19:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GJIokA018679; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:18:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GJIm7S018655; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:18:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:18:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:14:52 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <16af01c751d9$be5b5c40$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_u8A/EJzFEIvM+nObrQt7Gg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_u8A/EJzFEIvM+nObrQt7Gg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT At the beginning of the derivation it says "ion mass is irrelevant here (no inertia effects)". If it is irrelevant than the derived force does not really correspond to a thrust. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: >> ...the thrust formula >> I*d/mu where ion mobility mu... > Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily > interpret as being ion wind? ... > Dave Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if you do the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 kB gif image makes it to the list) Michel --Boundary_(ID_u8A/EJzFEIvM+nObrQt7Gg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Lifters
At the beginning of the derivation it says "ion mass is irrelevant here (no inertia effects)".
If it is irrelevant than the derived force does not really correspond to a thrust.

Harry


Michel Jullian wrote:

>> ...the thrust formula
>> I*d/mu where ion mobility mu...

> Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily
> interpret as being ion wind?
...
> Dave

Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if you do the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 kB gif image makes it to the list)
Michel


--Boundary_(ID_u8A/EJzFEIvM+nObrQt7Gg)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 11:40:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GJeeAO029865; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:40:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GJedpK029835; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:40:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:40:04 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Status: O X-Status: Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the vid, from Tom Valone: www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 12:16:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GKGNZP020711; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:16:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GKGMpF020698; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:16:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:16:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=GzNEubZGjzWc355dWEMbsW7Xi+3ZlG3Kpk8BlbBeTU9Zzr5u4g8Qp78fQSMnexygivxM/2H8SKsQML/hwXhlBCF8ZsTL4ZigYE868bh6cQJrKPfDXulNQNxKhe5PdO91QNtLW12fsIcXlUoRLyVPH3Zm0pDZOHcBK+McwxrNEAU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:16:16 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Antartic Data Does Not Support GW Models Status: O X-Status: http://physorg.com/news90782778.html "Antarctic Temperatures Disagree with Climate Model Predictions A new report on climate over the world's southernmost continent shows that temperatures during the late 20th century did not climb as had been predicted by many global climate models. " From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 12:38:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GKcA5u003675; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GKc88G003648; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216153513.036ce308@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:37:43 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >>Planting more forest in, say, Canada, can >>actually be a source of global warming - see >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset and scroll down to "Climate >>impacts" > >That assertion is a lot of crap. To put it another way, does anyone seriously assert that we should cut down all the trees in Canada to help prevent global warming? Obviously, if we put the Earth back the way we found it a few hundred years ago, and stop putting CO2 into the air, global warming is likely to subside. As I said in the book, we may need to put a great deal of carbon back underground, where we found it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 12:38:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GKcggI003978; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GKcfcC003962; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:38:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <175401c7520a$6cf3dc20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:38:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GKcZUo003928 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter. BTW the momentum of the discharged+ejected ions is negligible compared to that of the neutrals they drag along, because their concentration is very small. BTW2 the derivation is elegant but admittedly it could be a little more rigorous wrt distinguishing between scalars and vectors. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > At the beginning of the derivation it says "ion mass is irrelevant here (no > inertia effects)". > If it is irrelevant than the derived force does not really correspond to a > thrust. > > Harry > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> ...the thrust formula >>> I*d/mu where ion mobility mu... > >> Also, for you Michel, why does the ion mobility equation necessarily >> interpret as being ion wind? > ... >> Dave > > Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if you do > the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 kB gif > image makes it to the list) > > Michel > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 12:44:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GKi9AV007678; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:44:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GKi6ZW007654; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:44:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:44:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=dqXpEMGqJWD0Y6WS2YevIdNduIANyjeQOYhSQ9CHbEc6fihNjyxNZprlRTNdxqbBeuJVGtBiL0fowXaVdvEiCzBaYgHRBDqw8/ShU+x60FCFRqTsGhmTbPWUvg11IwMbLeaBfHt955A5X6gFSiOA3XFsVz2g+RbbmmXKCe6H/h0= ; X-YMail-OSG: T69fJXUVM1nI_OIjrUrzHsjqsYyQejA3UsDd26tptWZssix8_5rNw2xRmQ4A6hU74qwZ7jMOPwQxbEV.6FgyUC0X1XmpCKdLBnWB9LqAc2desgm7oAF.Tn4hU28Ma6bNacskZzgkjzMzPDk- Message-ID: <45D6178D.8050008@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:43:57 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, that sound-byte is a bit disingenuous, as Russ has "borrowed" the (unpatented) idea and experimental results of the late John Martin, who was less optimistic about the outcome ... JM was former director of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Marine_Laboratories ... and one assumes (hopes) that George would give credit to Martin at some point in the process ... whether Martin's estate would win or share in the prize is unclear. I think some of the personnel from Martin's Moss Landing team are the same in any event. Martin's issued a caution regarding Global Warming consequences. Before getting too enamored with the implications of those successful iron fertilization experiments - which have been in the public record for 16 years - one must face several caveats. http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/oceangard/overview.php#n27 Though iron fertilization may be one of several effective method of lessening the impact of global warming by increasing algae growth, and CO2 uptake, the scientific evidence is incomplete and suggests there may be unintended consequences, especially at the scale necessary for global change. Of course if the Algae were harvested as an oil substitute - then that would probably help immensely, but just growing it without harvesting as R George is proposing - is not sufficient. Methane BTW is a far more worrisome threat than CO2, being twenty times more potent as a greenhouse gas and the Arctic (vast areas of Siberia Canada, Alaska) is now releasing much more of it than anyone ever thought possible - so perhaps that gas should be addressed first - big prize or not. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the vid, from > Tom Valone: > > www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 13:05:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GL56cc027392; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:05:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GL505w027305; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:05:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:05:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:04:21 -0600 Message-ID: <008001c7520e$17481c10$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <175401c7520a$6cf3dc20$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdSCqx3bTarFH2nTMGnHr724KbYpAAAysmw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion > mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a > helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a > helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter. Several people have constructed lifters (and the related "thruster") to block airflow, which clearly demonstrates that airflow has nothing to do with the lift. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 13:35:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GLJW5Y020518; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:19:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GLJQ6Y020467; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:19:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:19:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:18:01 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >What's a few hundred years between friends? ;-) > >How long would it take by harvesting algae on a large scale then? I do not know. However: We have no simple method of harvesting ocean algae, whereas people have been harvesting trees for thousands of years. (It would be simple to harvest algae from ponds or tanks on land.) Growing trees brings many other benefits, besides fixing the global warming problem. For example, it prevents erosion and helps to feed people and wildlife. I doubt there are many benefits to growing algae. Even if you can develop a method of harvesting it to use it as fuel the energy overhead would be large. I doubt many people or farm animals would want to eat the stuff. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 13:51:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GLoqnQ010718; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:50:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GLoo8l010694; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:50:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:50:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c75214$8292c9b0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216153513.036ce308@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:50:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote:- <> No-one is asserting this as far as I know. That would be bonkers. The Wiki article was talking about afforestation (planting forest on land that has never been a forest) or reforestation in far Northerly or Southerly latitudes where there is significant long lasting snow and ice on the ground. New forest is much darker and less reflective than snow and ice so absorbs more solar radiation hence more global warming potential. Obviously the growing forest absorbs carbon but boreal forest is pretty slow growing and so absorbs less per tree per year than tropical forest. The Polar areas seem to be the bits that are heating up fastest so extra heat there, whether through retention by global warming gases or by extra absorption by decreased albedo, is to be discouraged. Boreal forests are not the large transpirers of water vapour (hence generators of reflective cloud) that tropical forests are. This general reasoning is recognised by reputable carbon offset companies such as http://www.carbonneutral.com/ who concentrate on tropical reforestation while allowing a few temperate ones to keep the customers happy. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 14:11:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GMB3Bp028347; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:11:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GMB1WQ028322; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:11:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:11:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <177501c75217$56708a90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216153513.036ce308@mindspring.com> <003401c75214$8292c9b0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:10:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GMAxUB028265 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your point about tropical forests being generators of reflective clouds makes me think that solving global warming by altering the albedo only (e.g. by making artificial clouds to reflect more of the incident sunlight, which may be possible on a large scale using ultrasonic nebulization) wouldn't qualify for the Branson prize either since it wouldn't decrease the CO2 :) On the contrary it would increase it since it would reduce photosynthesis! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > Jed wrote:- > > < cut down all the trees in Canada to help prevent global warming?>> > > No-one is asserting this as far as I know. That would be bonkers. The Wiki > article was talking about afforestation (planting forest on land that has > never been a forest) or reforestation in far Northerly or Southerly > latitudes where there is significant long lasting snow and ice on the > ground. New forest is much darker and less reflective than snow and ice so > absorbs more solar radiation hence more global warming potential. Obviously > the growing forest absorbs carbon but boreal forest is pretty slow growing > and so absorbs less per tree per year than tropical forest. The Polar areas > seem to be the bits that are heating up fastest so extra heat there, whether > through retention by global warming gases or by extra absorption by > decreased albedo, is to be discouraged. Boreal forests are not the large > transpirers of water vapour (hence generators of reflective cloud) that > tropical forests are. This general reasoning is recognised by reputable > carbon offset companies such as http://www.carbonneutral.com/ who > concentrate on tropical reforestation while allowing a few temperate ones > to keep the customers happy. > > Nick Palmer > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 14:14:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GMEXOj030311; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:14:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GMESok030252; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:14:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:14:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <177901c75217$d18f8dc0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <008001c7520e$17481c10$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:14:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GMEQuY030227 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The airflow blocking experiments I am aware of (e.g. at Blazelabs a continuous plate was used as the ion collector instead of a grid) demonstrated the opposite: no lift. Which is only to be expected: if you block the airflow by a plate attached to the lifter, the momentum given to the air is given back to the lifter when the air hits the plate, so the net thrust is zero. Would be the same if a helicoper carried a wide plate attached to its wheels, it wouldn't fly. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:04 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > Hi Michel, > >> But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion >> mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a >> helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a >> helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter. > > Several people have constructed lifters (and the related "thruster") to > block airflow, which clearly demonstrates that airflow has nothing to do > with the lift. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:13:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNCpBi025542; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:12:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNCj0O025476; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:12:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:12:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c7521f$ed47adb0$1ad8163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <009001c75169$ddcaa650$8bd2163f@DFBGQZ91> <059301c7516f$1430ca30$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:12:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters > They work fine in a grounded metal cage in my experience. In the > experiments you describe it may be more a question of the LDPE stopping > the wind? It depends on how far the cage is from the lifter electrodes. With no dielectric shield, you can sometimes still get a significant thrust, as the cage allows air to be blown nearly effortlessly out of the cage, moving the whole contraption. The cage was mainly put around the LDPE shield to eliminate (or at least strongly reduce) field interactions with nearby objects and air exterior to the dielectric shield. >> 7. It is not just ion wind, > > Balderdash :) It's as much ion wind as helicopters are propeller generated > wind. Depends on what you call ion wind. If by ion wind, you mean electric wind, corona wind, etc., such as is emitted from a point or knife-edge electrode, then it is not just ion wind. If by ion wind you mean any wind generated by the presence of the charge itself, electric field and shape thereof, etc., then yes, I agree, just ion wind. They can be made to work in oil, by sucking and pushing the oil past the electrodes. But again this is not reactionless/antigravity/what have you, its a simple toy that needs a dielectric medium to work in. In space, this thing is a real loser. >> 8. For posting these findings to several Yahoo groups, I have been >> banned. > > So was I :) Maybe also because I said what I thought about Naudin's > scientific skills one or two times :) I never got quite that far, but I was flamed very heavily for what I said. As far as the scientific skills of the lifter crowd....no comment.... > First ion wind devices are much older than that, cf Bondar's site, but > admittedly they didn't fly (rotating nails this kind of stuff) This is true, but the basic design of the lifter is so clearly Brown's electrokinetic apparatus, just folded into a triangle. In my view, given the experiments I have done, the lifter is nothing but a lightweight Ionic Breeze air-mover. Just holding a candle or lit cigar around an operating lifter is a very revealing thing. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:18:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNHk8Z028382; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:17:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNHip5028355; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:17:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:17:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c75220$a0f10690$1ad8163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <018201c75177$b511cff0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:17:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:08 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > What was the highest potential used in the vacuum experiments? Around 20kV. > As I see it, there is a balance between the charges of the lifter and the > dipole structure of the surrounding medium. It is my belief that if you > are > going to increase the vacuum, then you also need to increase the > potential. > This is not because of ion wind, but because the air molecules become > dipoles with much mass, which provide a more viscous dipole medium for the > charges on the lifter to operate against. Either way, in an interstellar vacuum of 1 hydrogen atom per cubic meter, this thing will not give you any thrust. The hardcore lifter believer crowd thinks this thing is really antigravity or reactionless propulsion that is going to get us to Mars and beyond. It isn't, never was, barking up the wrong tree, etc. > My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the > vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential. But to what end? If there is no medium to push against, even if you have 100MV across the thing, it won't fly around. > As I understand it, the hard vacuum experiments did not include an > increase > in potential. So naturally, if the medium is less dense the lifter has > less > to pull against and needs more potential. I may be misreading you, are you agreeing that the lifter is just a reaction "fan" that needs a medium (gas, liquid) to push against? Or are you of the opinion that it is reactionless? --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:20:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNK9Wf030074; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:20:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNK48k030020; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:20:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:20:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c75220$f4b6cbc0$1ad8163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:19:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > Did they place the box (with lifter inside) on a scale? > The weight should not change if it is ion wind. I did it with a balance beam and a pointer, and saw nothing significant. Also did it set up as a torsion arm. Some tests have been done with digital scales that give odd readings. Things like this must never be tested with digital scales...they are easily spoofed by nearby fields, especially when people are using high frequency supplies, like old computer monitors, to drive the lifters. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:36:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNa4jM007992; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:36:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNa3KI007984; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:36:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:36:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <178e01c75223$36afc390$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> <45D6178D.8050008@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:35:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1GNa1cO007965 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mmm, growing the algae without harvesting them _could_ be sufficient (pending calculations), but only for a one off operation: present excess CO2 sequestered into the living algae biomass increase, period. Could win the prize though. What surprises me most with this scheme is that one should need to bring fertilizers into the oceans, which already contain all the minerals you can dream of in amply sufficient concentrations. The increased growth action of the dust, if confirmed, might not be one of fertilization, maybe it increases photosynthesis by reflecting/diffusing the sunlight rather. Anyway, back to the harvesting hypothesis, whether or not we can stimulate growth one way or another. I have an idea for that, it's a bit... well here it is anyway. Highly efficient phytoplankton harvesters + phytoplankton -to-oil converters already exist actually, they are called whales :))) I guess you see what I am coming to: instead of harvesting the algae ourselves we would heavily repopulate the oceans with herds of whales (porn movies -or audio clips rather- featuring actors of the right species like they successfully use to repopulate pandas in China??), the whales would harvest the algae and process them into whale oil, and then we would harvest the whales and sequester the oil, plus use some of it as fuel. Sounds awful and cruel I realize (reminds me of that whale briefly brought into existence together with the petunia pot in The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was that in the film Fred?), but... if our own survival is at stake, well... your thoughts welcome :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > Well, that sound-byte is a bit disingenuous, as Russ has "borrowed" the > (unpatented) idea and experimental results of the late John Martin, who > was less optimistic about the outcome ... JM was former director of: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Marine_Laboratories > > ... and one assumes (hopes) that George would give credit to Martin at > some point in the process ... whether Martin's estate would win or share > in the prize is unclear. I think some of the personnel from Martin's > Moss Landing team are the same in any event. > > Martin's issued a caution regarding Global Warming consequences. Before > getting too enamored with the implications of those successful iron > fertilization experiments - which have been in the public record for 16 > years - one must face several caveats. > http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/oceangard/overview.php#n27 > > Though iron fertilization may be one of several effective method of > lessening the impact of global warming by increasing algae growth, and > CO2 uptake, the scientific evidence is incomplete and suggests there may > be unintended consequences, especially at the scale necessary for global > change. Of course if the Algae were harvested as an oil substitute - > then that would probably help immensely, but just growing it without > harvesting as R George is proposing - is not sufficient. > > Methane BTW is a far more worrisome threat than CO2, being twenty times > more potent as a greenhouse gas and the Arctic (vast areas of Siberia > Canada, Alaska) is now releasing much more of it than anyone ever > thought possible - so perhaps that gas should be addressed first - big > prize or not. > > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the vid, from >> Tom Valone: >> >> www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv >> >> - Jed >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:46:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNjpLf012298; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:45:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNjp9i012291; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:45:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:45:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WS9zcTvJO69k/Ledx3JE5v+QFC1SXMDatq+ARizobXaWAZdFosNc6PlWrke0EuaUavUrHnGvBaxOzQtbW9dZVPQr+UBsbzJrBA0jlSXfsMGVs/6ehrSTTfHzS4yDTaBWP7XeKThqPN4IXxsWMz+hKxxNdImuMMcXQad1RjuhGXY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:45:44 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <177501c75217$56708a90$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8004_18553095.1171669544028" References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216153513.036ce308@mindspring.com> <003401c75214$8292c9b0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <177501c75217$56708a90$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <99axkB.A.__C.uIk1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8004_18553095.1171669544028 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Two things, for one there are many uses for wood, as long as it's not burnt why not make use of what you can rather than just burying. And secondly the rate of pine growth varies greatly, see: http://www.forestenterprises.co.nz/new/afi/nzplantation.htm So location is key, as is choosing a very fast growing tree. Also Corella and other micro seaweeds are incredibly good as a natural supplement. So a bit of both, also the micro seaweed can be used to fertilize the land as discussed. ------=_Part_8004_18553095.1171669544028 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Two things, for one there are many uses for wood, as long as it's not burnt why not make use of what you can rather than just burying.

And secondly the rate of pine growth varies greatly, see:
http://www.forestenterprises.co.nz/new/afi/nzplantation.htm

So location is key, as is choosing a very fast growing tree.

Also Corella and other micro seaweeds are incredibly good as a natural supplement.

So a bit of both, also the micro seaweed can be used to fertilize the land as discussed.
------=_Part_8004_18553095.1171669544028-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:49:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNncxp016922; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:49:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNnaxs016879; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:49:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:49:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:48:57 -0600 Message-ID: <00a401c75225$1805a840$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <000d01c75220$a0f10690$1ad8163f@DFBGQZ91> Thread-Index: AcdSIQx4n3J+ilFWQj6g5pqUOvJ7AgAAsU6A Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Kyle, > > My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the > > vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential. > > But to what end? If there is no medium to push against, even if you have > 100MV across the thing, it won't fly around. Space-time is a medium. Haven't you ever heard of General Relativity theory? Matter exerts a force on space-time. > I may be misreading you, are you agreeing that the lifter is just a > reaction > "fan" that needs a medium (gas, liquid) to push against? Or are you of the > opinion that it is reactionless? Nothing is reactionless. I am of the informed opinion that space-time has a quantum structure, complete with electrostatic dipoles. Matter can directly interact with space-time. However, lifters are not very efficient. I'm working on a different method, which creates space-time bubbles around a vehicle. The vehicle can then move free from gravity. It is much like a soap bubble, which separates a region of air from another region of air and yet moves within it. With the space-time bubble there is no path for the gravitational field of the Earth to interact with the mass of the encapsulated vehicle. This allows the vehicle to merely float in space, whether on the surface of the planet or in the vacuum of empty space. The power system for this method is based upon Tesla's Wardencliffe technology. I already have the miniature Wardencliffe system built and the special coils for creating the bubble and driving the vehicle are half constructed. With any luck, I'll get the wireless power transmission system operational tomorrow, but the weather isn't looking so good. It might have to wait until Monday. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:56:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1GNu47E021139; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:56:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1GNtwW5021088; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:55:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:55:32 -0600 Message-ID: <00a501c75225$fa2736d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <178e01c75223$36afc390$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdSI5fzsXr6GpZrTMehMeNKCrAXKAAAarsA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't see what need there is to take the carbon out of the air. We spent 150 years of hard work getting all that sequestered carbon back into the biosphere. Don't these people realize the climate of the Earth was most stable during the time of the dinosaurs? Our planet went for hundreds of millions of years with no ice ages and there was 1000 times more biomatter in the biosystem than there is today with 1000s more species. If people want to take the carbon back out, all they need to do is send another comet into Earth's atmosphere. If I had my way, we would double carbon production in hopes of putting a permanent end to the present Ice Age. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 16:01:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H00pdn023498; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:00:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H00oN1023472; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:00:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:00:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <17a001c75226$acfac920$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <00a401c75225$1805a840$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:00:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1H00lts023438 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Beware of the MIB Dave, unless the MIW get hold of you first? :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 12:48 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > Hi Kyle, > >> > My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the >> > vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential. >> >> But to what end? If there is no medium to push against, even if you have >> 100MV across the thing, it won't fly around. > > Space-time is a medium. Haven't you ever heard of General Relativity > theory? Matter exerts a force on space-time. > >> I may be misreading you, are you agreeing that the lifter is just a >> reaction >> "fan" that needs a medium (gas, liquid) to push against? Or are you of the >> opinion that it is reactionless? > > Nothing is reactionless. I am of the informed opinion that space-time has a > quantum structure, complete with electrostatic dipoles. Matter can directly > interact with space-time. > > However, lifters are not very efficient. I'm working on a different method, > which creates space-time bubbles around a vehicle. The vehicle can then > move free from gravity. It is much like a soap bubble, which separates a > region of air from another region of air and yet moves within it. > > With the space-time bubble there is no path for the gravitational field of > the Earth to interact with the mass of the encapsulated vehicle. This > allows the vehicle to merely float in space, whether on the surface of the > planet or in the vacuum of empty space. > > The power system for this method is based upon Tesla's Wardencliffe > technology. I already have the miniature Wardencliffe system built and the > special coils for creating the bubble and driving the vehicle are half > constructed. With any luck, I'll get the wireless power transmission system > operational tomorrow, but the weather isn't looking so good. It might have > to wait until Monday. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 16:12:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H0Bpow002511; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:11:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H0BngV002475; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:11:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:11:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216190946.035fb560@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:11:40 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216153513.036ce308@mindspring.com> <003401c75214$8292c9b0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <177501c75217$56708a90$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_26707500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_26707500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Berry wrote: >Two things, for one there are many uses for wood, as long as it's >not burnt why not make use of what you can rather than just burying. Of course. I meant we should bury the wood after we make use of it. For example, with paper pulp that can not longer be recycled, or with wood from torn-down buildings. >And secondly the rate of pine growth varies greatly, see: >http://www.forestenterprises.co.nz/new/afi/nzplantation.htm Yes. I tried to find an average value for different species. I believe the amount of carbon does not vary as much because the fast-growing species, such as pine, tend to have light wood. - Jed --=====================_26707500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John Berry wrote:

Two things, for one there are many uses for wood, as long as it's not burnt why not make use of what you can rather than just burying.

Of course. I meant we should bury the wood after we make use of it. For example, with paper pulp that can not longer be recycled, or with wood from torn-down buildings.


And secondly the rate of pine growth varies greatly, see:
http://www.forestenterprises.co.nz/new/afi/nzplantation.htm

Yes. I tried to find an average value for different species. I believe the amount of carbon does not vary as much because the fast-growing species, such as pine, tend to have light wood.

- Jed
--=====================_26707500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 16:17:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H0H6cZ010936; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:17:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H0H3Zo010907; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:17:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:16:33 -0600 Message-ID: <00a901c75228$eb9a35b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <17a001c75226$acfac920$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdSJwqyJpcg2EFqTciwl4UsQGRGZAAAcJdg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > Beware of the MIB Dave, unless the MIW get hold of you first? :) I have no clue what you are talking about. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 17:16:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H1GIHd014294; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:16:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H1GGiF014273; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:16:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:16:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007401c75231$34b08fd0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <006601c751f7$dfbac600$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216133716.03605e38@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:05:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote, > I am certain that returning Canada, the U.S. and other temperate areas to > their original forestation would sequester gigantic amounts of CO2 and > help reverse global warming. Originally, I believe, the US area was one deciduous forest all the way to the Missouri river and perhaps beyond, with feet of rich topsoil below. Slash and burn agriculture worked to clear the land and create one of the greatest agricultural areas in the world, in the future responsible for feeding lots and lots of people. Reforestation of that particular land would reduce the food supply. Of course, that precious topsoil is being lost by current agriculatural practices which will eventually need reform. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 17:21:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H1LjYl016875; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:21:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H1Liww016854; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:21:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:21:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=POd1d+2Ax1d90i09CEaPKO4XEGXg9Eh4zLE5/T8W66kl624iW2sfQ/kcTyXjbA5B; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <8316090.1171675302942.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:21:42 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d838254fc3a45dd227ed2ec853a58e057a89663e5c6b578e64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.43 Resent-Message-ID: <_8uk-.A.IHE.nil1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 16, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New Sent: Feb 16, 2007 1:45 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 16, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 16 Feb 07 Washington, DC 1. UNCONSCIOUS: PRINCETON ENGINEERING ANOMALIES RESEARCH (PEAR). The closing of the PEAR laboratory at Princeton, after 28 years of non-accomplishment, may be a sign of declining interest in the paranormal, or it may just be an anomaly. Either way, Princeton University endured the embarrassment without compromising on the principle of tenure, which protects the right to hold minority views. Science is conditional. If someone comes up with better measurements or a better analysis, the textbooks are rewritten. The problem is that in the paranormal world, nothing ever gets better. In recent years, PEAR became the focus of the Global Consciousness Project, involving a hundred or so researchers at dozens of sites around the world, looking at the output of random number generators (RNGs). Exciting huh? They report "deviations from randomness" before major disasters, such as 9/11 and the "Christmas tsunami" in the Indian Ocean. They believe this is evidence of global consciousness. Or maybe RNGs are causing disasters http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn021805.html ? 2. INCONSISTENT: HOW TO GET THE BRONTOSAURUS ONBOARD NOAH'S ARK. "Scientist of faith" is an oxymoron. The University of Rhode Island recently accepted the dissertation of a doctoral candidate in paleontology, Marcus Ross, who just happens to also be a young-Earth creationist. His thesis is on mosasaurs, that lived 65 million years before Ross believes Earth was created. How does Ross deal with this? He says he uses different paradigms. Most scientists who regard themselves as religious, and there are many, interpret the scriptures metaphorically. Even so, they often partition their lives, treating faith as a virtue on one side of the partition, and a scientific sin on the other. Dr. Ross, meanwhile, now teaches earth science at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. He can't do much harm there. Wonder what paradigm he uses? As the song goes, "Brother can you paradigm?" 3. REPLACED: NEW KANSAS SCHOOL BOARD SETS NEW SCIENCE STANDARDS. Tuesday, the Kansas board of education scrapped creationist- inspired science education standards that represented Darwinian evolution as scientifically controversial. Only adopted in November 2005 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn111105.html the anti-evolution standards had not yet had any effect. Instead, the voters replaced the school board, and the new board replaced the science education standards. We can only imagine what new strategy creationists will come up. 4. UNCLEARED: LIKE THAT OTHER FUSION, BUBBLE FUSION DRAGS ON. A year ago Purdue announced a full review of the "bubble fusion" claims of Rusi Taleyarkhan, but four months later a story in Nature raised serious questions about the pace and secrecy of the review. This week, the university seemed to clear him, but supplied little detail. Taleyarkhan says he feels vindicated. Others are not so sure. It doesn't seem quite over. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 17:25:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H1P5YJ018523; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:25:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H1P4P4018505; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c75232$718a9b20$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <00a501c75225$fa2736d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:24:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote:- <> Errrr, Dave, that may be true but getting from where we are now to that "paradise" involves going through a probably horrendous series of probably violent climate instabilities. Billions of people would die, millions of species would be wiped out. Prove that it will be a gentle transition and people may listen. Sheer cold logic says that you cannot prove this so please stop muddying the waters. Your position, like that dangerous lunatic Singer, is rather like that of the punk versus "Dirty Harry" who "felt lucky" and fatally got on the wrong side of a Magnum... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 18:04:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H24HEr008994; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:04:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H24EpW008977; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:04:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:04:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:03:47 -0600 Message-ID: <00b901c75237$e6725540$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <003601c75232$718a9b20$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Thread-Index: AcdSMtNJhh6XffSZTZC+UbrdtwdRpQAAQWhQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Nick, > Errrr, Dave, that may be true but getting from where we are now to that > "paradise" involves going through a probably horrendous series of probably > violent climate instabilities. Billions of people would die, millions of > species would be wiped out. There is no two ways about it, you are absolutely correct. That is why our efforts should be spent on survival, not slowing down the process. > Prove that it will be a gentle transition and people may listen. No chance! There is not going to be a gentle transition. Our options right now are to go through a complete climate reversal (ice advance), or a complete terraforming of the Earth. Our sights should be set on future generations. It is very selfish of us to think only of our own unfortunate situation and not help prevent future generations from sliding back into a primitive state. > Sheer cold logic says that you cannot prove this so > please stop muddying the waters. Your position, like that dangerous > lunatic > Singer, is rather like that of the punk versus "Dirty Harry" who "felt > lucky" and fatally got on the wrong side of a Magnum... No Nick, I'm probably the most safe and sane thinker on this debate. Instead of looking only at the present time, I'm looking ahead at multiple generations of humans. If we don't start focusing heavily on survival, future generations simply will not survive. Climate change is inevitable, and it would occur whether humans tried bringing the carbon back into the biosphere, or not. I have researched climate change for the past decade and started a web site on my observations at www.terracycles.com. My climate research came to a halt when I discovered a completely new physics paradigm, which could greatly advance the human species and our level of technology. I know Michel thought I was kidding her about building a wireless power transmission system. She probably also did not recognize the vehicle in the space-time bubble as the "flying triangle" vehicle reported by so many people and seen by myself from only 100 feet away. I have spent my whole life doing independent research in many areas of knowledge. Trust me, the best way to deal with climate change is to go through it head first and return the Earth back to its stable condition. Yes, it will be very painful, but it is inevitable. We tend to look back on civilization 5000 years ago and say, "what primitive people they were, glad I'm living in modern technology." And these same people say, "Wow, those primitive slaves really had it in them to carry huge stone blocks with ropes and logs to build those pyramids." Even though it is obvious from the weathering on the Sphinx that it existed previous to the last global climate change event, we are still in denial that humanity was once advanced to our present level, if not more advanced. It is likely that civilization has advanced several times in the past 100,000 years, and has been wiped out each time. My desire is to see an end to this cycle so that humans can have a chance to evolve into a truly intelligent species. Far from muddying the waters, I'm trying to clear them up so we can see what is really going on. I'm also looking ahead and acting on behalf of all those unborn survivors who will only hear stories about the great civilization that fell due to climate change. Some may wonder why our forbearers did not think as much about our own safety, but here we are with the potential to help future generations. Whining about the coming disasters and shutting down our economy out of fear is not going to help our children. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 18:25:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H2Onru020444; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:24:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H2Om3N020426; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:24:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:24:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DRrziDCEHTAsBB2jrN/opZFimdEPtdJSt22BVIvU1BVwUbEFCIf/uvFmHkfeee0ib7ItNZm2BtUSSIrjIYz5+Rpn5G6/3jM3T4hiamq2loSHcywtEYNcrs0t8qtJGzBjWFTHrtSqSCpOMzOVv8uOzdmFhS+fcbg1LCHjLlB45v4= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:24:47 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC In-Reply-To: <00b901c75237$e6725540$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8516_12598085.1171679087126" References: <003601c75232$718a9b20$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <00b901c75237$e6725540$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_8516_12598085.1171679087126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/17/07, David Thomson wrote: > > > Your position, like that dangerous > > lunatic > > Singer, is rather like that of the punk versus "Dirty Harry" who "felt > > lucky" and fatally got on the wrong side of a Magnum... > > No Nick, I'm probably the most safe and sane thinker on this debate. > Instead of looking only at the present time I beg to differ. You don't know for a fact that it will lead to what you envision, nor do you know if the consequences will be worth it to human, animal or vegetable. (mineral should be fine ;) What species won't survive the violent changes? Which ones won't survive their new environment? And you are proposing to help the earth by massive pollution! Also there is the very real possibility that in all those millions of years something has changed and the earth can't be reset. There is a fringe theory that says that there used to be a canopy or rings of water/ice that caused the floods (on coming down) which are universally present in pretty much all peoples history. (Atlantis, Genesis as well as most/all native legends and even some assorted scientific oddities) So all things considered I don't think you can really be assured it even could work if it is desirable which it is most likely not. , I'm looking ahead at multiple > generations of humans. If we don't start focusing heavily on survival, > future generations simply will not survive. Climate change is inevitable That's a theory not a fact. , > and it would occur whether humans tried bringing the carbon back into the > biosphere, or not. Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish. Granted if it was naturally going to happen it might take some significant intervention, but it is possible to reverse it not that we know that it's going to happen anyway. ------=_Part_8516_12598085.1171679087126 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/17/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:
> Your position, like that dangerous
> lunatic
> Singer, is rather like that of the punk versus "Dirty Harry" who "felt
> lucky" and fatally got on the wrong side of a Magnum...

No Nick, I'm probably the most safe and sane thinker on this debate.
Instead of looking only at the present time

I beg to differ.

You don't know for a fact that it will lead to what you envision, nor do you know if the consequences will be worth it to human, animal or vegetable. (mineral should be fine ;)

What species won't survive the violent changes? Which ones won't survive their new environment?

And you are proposing to help the earth by massive pollution!

Also there is the very real possibility that in all those millions of years something has changed and the earth can't be reset.

There is a fringe theory that says that there used to be a canopy or rings of water/ice that caused the floods (on coming down) which are universally present in pretty much all peoples history. (Atlantis, Genesis as well as most/all native legends and even some assorted scientific oddities)

So all things considered I don't think you can really be assured it even could work if it is desirable which it is most likely not.


, I'm looking ahead at multiple
generations of humans.  If we don't start focusing heavily on survival,
future generations simply will not survive.  Climate change is inevitable

That's a theory not a fact.

,
and it would occur whether humans tried bringing the carbon back into the
biosphere, or not.

Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish.
Granted if it was naturally going to happen it might take some significant intervention, but it is possible to reverse it not that we know that it's going to happen anyway.



------=_Part_8516_12598085.1171679087126-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 18:43:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H2h1mo030506; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:43:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H2guV2030457; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:42:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:42:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:42:28 -0600 Message-ID: <00c501c7523d$4dfe69b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcdSOzihCgvb9SUvTtSBTDJoDEsLiAAAdZyg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, > Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish. Obviously it cannot be stopped. It has already happened a dozen times in the past 120,000 years. What makes you think we are special and climate change was not going to happen to us? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 20:57:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H4vc9P031747; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:57:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H4vV8n031702; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:57:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=rzqBgK+TCyEPYre7u+GAS+ItHkk6XLcmu83uYq+Ml5WVrDzKhnEquk5rot9pTB9DqLd/aUc3+xQTQeXaLdP3rI7iPMajYjG3FpsQXc2aFPp+/Dds+XkVLntw8fXUewumohX/DrBg1NxEi6w4aKufzfXcnsPY/ZfJRUbIthIT6TE= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:57:31 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC In-Reply-To: <00c501c7523d$4dfe69b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9204_29138559.1171688251114" References: <00c501c7523d$4dfe69b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_9204_29138559.1171688251114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Human achievements are significant. Ultimately almost anything is possible, some things man has envisioned doing in the future: Make an elevator to geosynchronous (I assume?) orbit. Make nano machines Both of those may even be near future. For the somewhat more distant future there are thoughts such a traveling to distant stars and beyond. Dyson spheres. Tippler time travel by rotating a stack of neutron stars and other stellar engineering. And of course terraforming other planets. So obviously it IS possible, it is within man's grasp to either correct the current greenhouse gas problem and or stop any adverse global weather condition. How easy or difficult depends on how such a goal is achieved, how subtle and sophisticated or ingenious the techniques used are, for instance I believe in cloud busting and other such environmental engineering by the subtle energies of nature that I suspect many in here would reject, needless to say it could be achieved more easily this way than by a brute force method but either way it plainly IS possible. On 2/17/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi John, > > > Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish. > > Obviously it cannot be stopped. It has already happened a dozen times in > the past 120,000 years. What makes you think we are special and climate > change was not going to happen to us? > > Dave > > ------=_Part_9204_29138559.1171688251114 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Human achievements are significant.
Ultimately almost anything is possible, some things man has envisioned doing in the future:

Make an elevator to geosynchronous (I assume?) orbit.
Make nano machines

Both of those may even be near future.

For the somewhat more distant future there are thoughts such a traveling to distant stars and beyond.
Dyson spheres.
Tippler time travel by rotating a stack of neutron stars and other stellar engineering.

And of course terraforming other planets.

So obviously it IS  possible, it is within man's grasp to either correct the current greenhouse gas problem and or stop any adverse global weather condition.

How easy or difficult depends on how such a goal is achieved, how subtle and sophisticated or ingenious the techniques used are, for instance I  believe in cloud busting and other such environmental engineering by the subtle energies of nature that I suspect many in here would reject, needless to say it could be achieved more easily this way than by a brute force method but either way it plainly IS possible.



On 2/17/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:
Hi John,

> Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish.

Obviously it cannot be stopped.  It has already happened a dozen times in
the past 120,000 years.  What makes you think we are special and climate
change was not going to happen to us?

Dave


------=_Part_9204_29138559.1171688251114-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 21:12:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H5CPZm008802; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:12:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H5COH8008779; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:12:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:12:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:08:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <175401c7520a$6cf3dc20$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion > mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a > helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a > helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter. Ok. I presumed the phrase "ion mass is irrelevant" meant "ion mass is physically irrelevant". > BTW the momentum of the discharged+ejected ions is negligible compared to that > of the neutrals they drag along, because their concentration is very small. > > BTW2 the derivation is elegant but admittedly it could be a little more > rigorous wrt distinguishing between scalars and vectors. > > Michel Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 22:59:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H6xjg3012381; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:59:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H6xdiH012367; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:59:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:59:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:56:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <001001c75220$f4b6cbc0$1ad8163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> Did they place the box (with lifter inside) on a scale? >> The weight should not change if it is ion wind. > > I did it with a balance beam and a pointer, and saw nothing significant. > Also did it set up as a torsion arm. How did you calibrate your scale? > Some tests have been done with digital > scales that give odd readings. Things like this must never be tested with > digital scales...they are easily spoofed by nearby fields, especially when > people are using high frequency supplies, like old computer monitors, to > drive the lifters. > > --Kyle > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 23:13:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H7DEex016988; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:13:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H7DC1K016965; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:13:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:13:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:09:52 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <177901c75217$d18f8dc0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > The airflow blocking experiments I am aware of (e.g. at Blazelabs a continuous > plate was used as the ion collector instead of a grid) demonstrated the > opposite: no lift. Which is only to be expected: if you block the airflow by a > plate attached to the lifter, the momentum given to the air is given back to > the lifter when the air hits the plate, so the net thrust is zero. You when you say no lift, do you mean no movement upwards was detected or no weight change was detected ...or? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 23:18:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H7IhHV019928; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:18:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H7IfrD019898; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:18:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:18:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:19:42 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson. http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 23:32:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H7WTHq026809; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:32:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H7WSkI026784; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:32:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:32:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D6AF6B.8000403@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:31:55 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters References: <00a401c75225$1805a840$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <00a401c75225$1805a840$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >Hi Kyle, > > >> to push against? Or are you of the >>opinion that it is reactionless? >> > >Nothing is reactionless. I am of the informed opinion that space-time has a >quantum structure, complete with electrostatic dipoles. Matter can directly >interact with space-time. > > On the contrary. I have mentioned Robert Cook's inertial drive on Vortex, and last year someone posted on the emdrive.com . IMHO, a working inertial drive, ID, is head spinningly weird, there's just no reason for it to work. I'm reminded of Howard, who used to teach Chemical Engineering at the U of MN. He said that a working inertial drive would upset his paradign of reality. I always wanted to go visit the old boy with a working ID, especially one mounded in a pickup truck, one with no tires. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 23:54:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H7sCcT005011; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:54:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H7sAL6004993; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:54:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:54:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:50:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters In-reply-to: <000601c7521f$ed47adb0$1ad8163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters > > >> They work fine in a grounded metal cage in my experience. In the >> experiments you describe it may be more a question of the LDPE stopping >> the wind? > > It depends on how far the cage is from the lifter electrodes. With no > dielectric shield, you can sometimes still get a significant thrust, as the > cage allows air to be blown nearly effortlessly out of the cage, moving the > whole contraption. The cage was mainly put around the LDPE shield to > eliminate (or at least strongly reduce) field interactions with nearby > objects and air exterior to the dielectric shield. > >>> 7. It is not just ion wind, >> >> Balderdash :) It's as much ion wind as helicopters are propeller generated >> wind. > > Depends on what you call ion wind. If by ion wind, you mean electric wind, > corona wind, etc., such as is emitted from a point or knife-edge electrode, > then it is not just ion wind. If by ion wind you mean any wind generated by > the presence of the charge itself, electric field and shape thereof, etc., > then yes, I agree, just ion wind. > > They can be made to work in oil, by sucking and pushing the oil past the > electrodes. But again this is not reactionless/antigravity/what have you, > its a simple toy that needs a dielectric medium to work in. In space, this > thing is a real loser. I notice you said "they can be MADE TO WORK by sucking and pushing" Evidently they only work in the oil medium if another force exists to suck and push the oil force. Now if such extra force is required when the apparatus is in an oil medium, does it not stand to reason that an extra force (albeit much smaller in magnitude) is needed for the apparatus to work in air? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 00:03:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1H83B9R012304; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:03:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1H839o9012293; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:03:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:03:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:59:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: uh sorry I mean "suck and push the oil." instead of "suck and push the oil force." Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > > > I notice you said "they can be MADE TO WORK by sucking and pushing" > Evidently they only work in the oil medium if another force exists > to suck and push the oil force. > > Now if such extra force is required when the apparatus is in an oil medium, > does it not stand to reason that an extra force (albeit much > smaller in magnitude) is needed for the apparatus to work in air? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 04:02:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HC2GSX019602; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:02:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HC2DLf019576; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:02:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:02:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:01:35 -0600 Message-ID: <00e301c7528b$66b5c9f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C75259.1C1B59F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcdSUHzrAk+Rn39aSRSkA+QfHj/VpAANPHtA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C75259.1C1B59F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, =20 Building a nanomachine or a space elevator is hardly near the scale of changing the Earth=92s climate. In case you are not aware, volcanism = and seismicity have been increasing steadily in the past 6 years. There are many volcanoes that have not erupted for over 10,000 years, which are = just now erupting again. In the past year, there have been three M6 = earthquakes in the Gulf of Mexico, an M7+ quake in Mozambique, and the Ethiopian = rift zone spread by dozens of feet right before the eyes of scientists, just = to name a few major Earth change events. You have little appreciation for = the magnitude of momentum Earth changes carry. The climate is just one = factor of many, which are interrelated, and it all traces back to the Sun. However, there is a new wildcard in play. Our solar system just entered = an Interstellar cloud about nine years ago and we won=92t be leaving it for 10,000 to 50,000 years. =20 =20 Contrary to the myths purveyed by Al Gore and the IPCC, the climate is = not just a matter of CO2 balance. People who buy into this great deception = are incredibly na=EFve and ignorant. The current global warming debate = appears to be some kind of intentional misinformation campaign to divert people=92s attention from the real underlying mechanics presently in motion. There = is nothing we can do to stop the present cycle of change, but we can = prepare for the damage that will occur. =20 =20 Not everybody will survive, that is a given. Wasting our money and resources trying to bail out a sinking ship with a teaspoon is not the solution. We should be staffing the life rafts and gathering our provisions. To keep the ship from rolling over we might increase survivability by blowing the hull. We could take a lesson from Noah, = who was one of the few who understood the severity of the problem, last = time. =20 There is no point in arguing when everyone is so certain his or her own knowledge is complete. I have presented a lot of very interesting information on the Terracycles site for anyone who is interested. I = have learned loads more in the five years since. I=92m spending my time = doing what I can to prepare, not only for myself, but for future generations. If = you want to waste your time trying to reduce CO2 emissions, when they should = be increased, that is up to you. =20 BTW, why do you think our society has developed into a huge fossil fuel consuming civilization when liquid metal fast breeder reactors have been around since the 1940s? Why do you think all those energy saving and = free energy inventions have been suppressed over the past 100 years? Why do = you think the UFO phenomenon is always debunked, even when there is obvious photographic and physical evidence of its existence? People (or beings) = far more influential than us have been aware of the coming Earth changes for = a long time. We are mere cows on a huge farm concerned about who poops = where while our overlords are looking at our market value. Just take a deep breath and reflect on the greater picture. We can=92t change the fact = that the Earth is changing, but we can keep the human species alive if we put = our minds to it. =20 Dave =20 Make an elevator to geosynchronous (I assume?) orbit. Make nano machines Both of those may even be near future.=20 For the somewhat more distant future there are thoughts such a traveling = to distant stars and beyond. Dyson spheres. Tippler time travel by rotating a stack of neutron stars and other = stellar engineering. And of course terraforming other planets. So obviously it IS possible, it is within man's grasp to either correct = the current greenhouse gas problem and or stop any adverse global weather condition. How easy or difficult depends on how such a goal is achieved, how subtle = and sophisticated or ingenious the techniques used are, for instance I = believe in cloud busting and other such environmental engineering by the subtle energies of nature that I suspect many in here would reject, needless to = say it could be achieved more easily this way than by a brute force method = but either way it plainly IS possible.=20 On 2/17/07, David Thomson wrote: Hi John, > Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish. Obviously it cannot be stopped. It has already happened a dozen times = in the past 120,000 years. What makes you think we are special and climate = change was not going to happen to us? Dave =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C75259.1C1B59F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = John,

 

Building a nanomachine or a space = elevator is hardly near the scale of changing the Earth’s climate.=A0 In = case you are not aware, volcanism and seismicity have been increasing steadily in = the past 6 years.=A0 There are many volcanoes that have not erupted for over = 10,000 years, which are just now erupting again.=A0 In the past year, there = have been three M6 earthquakes in the Gulf of Mexico, an M7+ quake in = Mozambique, and the Ethiopian rift zone spread by dozens of feet right before the eyes = of scientists, just to name a few major Earth change events.=A0 You have = little appreciation for the magnitude of momentum Earth changes carry.=A0 The = climate is just one factor of many, which are interrelated, and it all traces back = to the Sun.=A0 However, there is a new wildcard in play.=A0 Our solar system = just entered an Interstellar cloud about nine years ago and we won’t be leaving = it for 10,000 to 50,000 years.=A0

 

Contrary to the myths purveyed by = Al Gore and the IPCC, the climate is not just a matter of CO2 balance.=A0 People = who buy into this great deception are incredibly na=EFve and ignorant.=A0 The = current global warming debate appears to be some kind of intentional = misinformation campaign to divert people’s attention from the real underlying = mechanics presently in motion.=A0 There is nothing we can do to stop the present = cycle of change, but we can prepare for the damage that will occur.=A0 =

 

Not everybody will survive, that is = a given.=A0 Wasting our money and resources trying to bail out a sinking = ship with a teaspoon is not the solution.=A0 We should be staffing the life rafts = and gathering our provisions.=A0 To keep the ship from rolling over we might = increase survivability by blowing the hull.=A0 We could take a lesson from Noah, = who was one of the few who understood the severity of the problem, last = time.

 

There is no point in arguing when = everyone is so certain his or her own knowledge is complete.=A0 I have presented = a lot of very interesting information on the Terracycles site for anyone who is interested.=A0 I have learned loads more in the five years since.=A0 = I’m spending my time doing what I can to prepare, not only for myself, but = for future generations.=A0 If you want to waste your time trying to reduce = CO2 emissions, when they should be increased, that is up to = you.

 

BTW, why do you think our society = has developed into a huge fossil fuel consuming civilization when liquid = metal fast breeder reactors have been around since the 1940s?=A0 Why do you think = all those energy saving and free energy inventions have been suppressed over the = past 100 years?=A0 Why do you think the UFO phenomenon is always debunked, even = when there is obvious photographic and physical evidence of its existence?=A0 = People (or beings) far more influential than us have been aware of the coming Earth changes = for a long time.=A0 We are mere cows on a huge farm concerned about who poops = where while our overlords are looking at our market value.=A0 Just take a deep = breath and reflect on the greater picture.=A0 We can’t change the fact = that the Earth is changing, but we can keep the human species alive if we put our = minds to it.

 

Dave

 

Make an = elevator to geosynchronous (I assume?) orbit.
Make nano machines

Both of those may even be near future.

For the somewhat more distant future there are thoughts such a traveling = to distant stars and beyond.
Dyson spheres.
Tippler time travel by rotating a stack of neutron stars and other = stellar engineering.

And of course terraforming other planets.

So obviously it IS  possible, it is within man's grasp to either = correct the current greenhouse gas problem and or stop any adverse global = weather condition.

How easy or difficult depends on how such a goal is achieved, how subtle = and sophisticated or ingenious the techniques used are, for instance I  believe in cloud busting and other such environmental engineering by the = subtle energies of nature that I suspect many in here would reject, needless to = say it could be achieved more easily this way than by a brute force method but = either way it plainly IS possible.


On 2/17/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi John,

> Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish.

Obviously it cannot be stopped.  It has already happened a = dozen times in
the past 120,000 years.  What makes you think we are special = and climate
change was not going to happen to us?

Dave

 

------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C75259.1C1B59F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 04:08:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HC8Pck022693; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:08:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HC8Oi6022668; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:08:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:08:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004701c7528c$4c1a9ca0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:08:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HC8DSS022617 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No extra force in oil, it works just the same as a lifter it's an EHD thruster, called "ion drag pump" when the medium is a dielectric liquid and the thruster is stationary: oil molecules are ionized, and ion current from a sharper electrode to a flatter electrode entrains neutrals. You can picture an EHD thruster as a paddle wheel boat: while the charges carried by the ions (=paddles) move through the medium (=water) they drag it backwards, the rest of the time they are recirculated from the back to the front of the thruster by the power supply (= the boat's engine). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters >> >> >>> They work fine in a grounded metal cage in my experience. In the >>> experiments you describe it may be more a question of the LDPE stopping >>> the wind? >> >> It depends on how far the cage is from the lifter electrodes. With no >> dielectric shield, you can sometimes still get a significant thrust, as the >> cage allows air to be blown nearly effortlessly out of the cage, moving the >> whole contraption. The cage was mainly put around the LDPE shield to >> eliminate (or at least strongly reduce) field interactions with nearby >> objects and air exterior to the dielectric shield. >> >>>> 7. It is not just ion wind, >>> >>> Balderdash :) It's as much ion wind as helicopters are propeller generated >>> wind. >> >> Depends on what you call ion wind. If by ion wind, you mean electric wind, >> corona wind, etc., such as is emitted from a point or knife-edge electrode, >> then it is not just ion wind. If by ion wind you mean any wind generated by >> the presence of the charge itself, electric field and shape thereof, etc., >> then yes, I agree, just ion wind. >> >> They can be made to work in oil, by sucking and pushing the oil past the >> electrodes. But again this is not reactionless/antigravity/what have you, >> its a simple toy that needs a dielectric medium to work in. In space, this >> thing is a real loser. > > > I notice you said "they can be MADE TO WORK by sucking and pushing" > Evidently they only work in the oil medium if another force exists > to suck and push the oil force. > > Now if such extra force is required when the apparatus is in an oil medium, > does it not stand to reason that an extra force (albeit much > smaller in magnitude) is needed for the apparatus to work in air? > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 04:14:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HCEKuH031746; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:14:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HCEIbB031723; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:14:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:14:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01c7528d$244115a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <00b901c75237$e6725540$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:13:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HCEFkS031702 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I know Michel thought I was kidding her... ... > Dave Even worse than I thought. Dave when the MIW come don't forget mentioning you talked with a female Vo :))) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 04:55:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HCt0sh020055; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:55:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HCsuIX019976; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:54:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:54:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:54:12 -0600 Message-ID: <00eb01c75292$c0feb7d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <004a01c7528d$244115a0$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdSjYzV6CH8o+nuR+6lpiwQLoxBJgABN/7A Resent-Message-ID: <1-8ns.A.v3E.fsv1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > > I know Michel thought I was kidding her... > ... > > Dave > > Even worse than I thought. Dave when the MIW come don't forget mentioning > you talked with a female Vo :))) > > Michel What are you trying to say, that you are as crazy as I am? I doubt it! My life is so bizarre even I have to question my own sanity. ;-) Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:05:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HD4iGf003822; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:04:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HD4f7F003751; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:04:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:04:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c75294$27c9ea10$d5da163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <00a401c75225$1805a840$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:04:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters >> But to what end? If there is no medium to push against, even if you have >> 100MV across the thing, it won't fly around. > > Space-time is a medium. Haven't you ever heard of General Relativity > theory? Matter exerts a force on space-time. Classical spacetime is not recognized as a medium, just some mathematics and tensors. It will probably be eventually recognized that there is a physical "something" to the vacuum, but what it is, I don't know, and I doubt anyone else knows for sure either. Whether or not you can push against it, well, I am not saying you cannot. I am just saying it looks as if the "lifter" isn't pushing against anything but a normal dielectric medium of air or a liquid. And yes, I have heard of General Relativity. I really have little else to say on this subject, I've done the experiments and found that, to my knowledge and experience, the Lifters do not produce anomalous, unconventional thrust. I have about a dozen other projects to work on which may be promising, but if I continue to waste time with things that I know don't work, I am not going to get anywhere. I posted my findings, and that is all. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:12:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HDChKn012560; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:12:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HDCf5Z012518; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:12:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:12:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005501c75295$46ea3f70$d5da163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:12:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:56 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters >> I did it with a balance beam and a pointer, and saw nothing significant. >> Also did it set up as a torsion arm. > > How did you calibrate your scale? You don't really "calibrate" a simple balance beam or torsion arm. There is no scale, just beam, pointer, and a ruler positioned next to the pointer. A laser pointer is unnecessary and inacurate as well... consider the spot size of a red laser pointer compared the the thickness of a sewing needle. You just make it long enough and rigid enough that if you drop a bit of lint on one end of it, the pointer at the other end will give a visible indication of movement. An unshielded, open-air lifter will move a long balance beam undeniably. Very easy to see. The torsion arm is even better, you can make the thing spin complete revolutions. When the shield is added, nothing happens. I know it is going to be suggested that the added weight of the shields increased the weight and swamped the "effect". This thought was not lost on my, so I hung the shield just below the test Lifter, with the lifter exposed to air, to see if it could visibly push the added mass of the shields. It did with little difficulty. When the lifter was then placed within the shield, no thrust. I suggest, if anyone else wishes to try this, to run one lead wire up from the floor to the lifter, and one down from the ceiling to it, and make the wires meet close to the pivot or axis of the balance beam. Otherwise, the lead wires will give artifacts. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:25:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HDPLXP024321; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:25:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HDPG6x024285; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:25:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:25:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005c01c75297$0f07d7a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <00eb01c75292$c0feb7d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:24:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HDPETm024262 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Before you try dating me Dave, you should know that female Vo's exist only in your dreams :) http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Michel Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:54 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > Hi Michel, > >> > I know Michel thought I was kidding her... >> ... >> > Dave >> >> Even worse than I thought. Dave when the MIW come don't forget mentioning >> you talked with a female Vo :))) >> >> Michel > > What are you trying to say, that you are as crazy as I am? I doubt it! My > life is so bizarre even I have to question my own sanity. ;-) > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:30:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HDTuHt026680; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:29:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HDTs87026656; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:29:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:29:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 07:29:11 -0600 Message-ID: <00ec01c75297$a7085930$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <004801c75294$27c9ea10$d5da163f@DFBGQZ91> Thread-Index: AcdSlKKaGj3lXa55R0KmqVV3a0Y3PAAAS5kg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Kyle, > Classical spacetime is not recognized as a medium, just some mathematics > and tensors. And that means what? Do you really think the Universe is made out of dimensionless math equations? > It will probably be eventually recognized that there is a physical > "something" to the vacuum, but what it is, I don't know, and I doubt > anyone else knows for sure either. You are wrong about that, too. I have fully quantified exactly what the "physical something" of the vacuum is. I have written a white paper on it and delivered it before the PIRT 2006 conference in London last fall. I have also written a book on the topic (Secrets of the Aether) and last weekend presented the theory before a group of scientists in Memphis, Tennessee. If you want to know what the vacuum is, just ask or read the paper. http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf > Whether or not you can push against it, well, I > am not saying you cannot. I am saying you can, and I am not alone. General Relativity also says you can. > I am just saying it looks as if the "lifter" isn't > pushing against anything but a normal dielectric medium of air or a > liquid. I don't deny it looks that way to you. The physics of ion thrust are valid, but they are inapplicable to the lifter. Have you built a thruster device? http://www.fw.hu/bmiklos2000/unipolar.htm > I really have little else to say on this subject, I've done the > experiments > and found that, to my knowledge and experience, the Lifters do not produce > anomalous, unconventional thrust. I have about a dozen other projects to > work on which may be promising, but if I continue to waste time with > things that I know don't work, I am not going to get anywhere. I posted my > findings, and that is all. It is one thing to get a negative result, it is another thing to assume you have fully understood the result. I can't blame you for wanting to do other projects, however. There is not enough thrust in the lifters or thrusters for me to continue with them at this time, either. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:37:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HDaqne031794; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:36:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HDaoYH031771; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:36:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005c01c75297$b8263700$d5da163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <004701c7528c$4c1a9ca0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:29:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > No extra force in oil, it works just the same as a lifter it's an EHD > thruster, called "ion drag pump" when the medium is a dielectric liquid > and the thruster is stationary: oil molecules are ionized, and ion current > from a sharper electrode to a flatter electrode entrains neutrals. I agree with this. It is also obvious to see the "flow" of oil around the electrodes. One can use a clear oil, like mineral oil, and take a darkly colored oil and squirt a bit into the mineral oil in front of the submerged lifter and see how it is sucked through the lifter...it will grab onto and carry quite a bit of extra oil along for the ride. You are right about the pump part too: a lifter also works as a fair vacuum pump. If it is held stationary in a suitable glass vessel, and put between whatever one wishes to pull to a vacuum, and the output of the stationary lifter is sent to a dual rotary vane pump, you can get a good deal harder vacuum then if only the rotary vane pump was being used. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:54:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HDrwJF011095; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:53:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HDruOp011077; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:53:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:53:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:53:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HDrtaa011049 Resent-Message-ID: <_CZiF.A.9sC.0jw1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson. > > http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html So it seems iron fertilization does enhance algae growth after all, by creating more or less instantaneous blooms, and the (old) idea is not George's but Martin's like Jones said. I had no idea there was a lack of iron in the oceans, this probably means this element is the limiting factor for ocean surface algae photosynthesis. What is not clear at all if if this scheme is a net atmospheric carbon absorber in the long term, let's assume it isn't (algae re-emit GHGs when they die, so do the fish that eat them), so we still need to harvest and sequester. Ok let's pursue the whale herd idea of my earlier post for harvesting and sequestering, and let's throw in the iron fertilization factor since it works: 1/ Let's equip the whales with iron dispensers spurting iron solution around when there is sunlight for photosynthesis to occur. This way the algae will grow where and when they can be harvested :) And the whale herd will grow too. 2/ Instead of going whale hunting like in the good old days, couldn't we take advantage of the beasties' gluttony to remote control them to their oceanic pastures and back? All that would be needed would be an embarked GPS, a radio for two way communication with the "whale boys" in their control rooms on land, and ways to direct the iron solution spurts to where we want the whales to follow the blooms :) How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ? Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 06:32:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HEWbF2000738; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:32:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HEWZb5000711; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:32:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:32:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G4n6qQx9cKBwnqJ5gy5b0/Q+WcKo+KEjhHTAz/5B7SM+cUhaxWtB5RAUzEExJeBEyVOvXOgPJDrxx+phM86lmV/9LrI4Na+jKbPhCDTh/FktZaCIrxMPdWsA+iNwCF3k1QH1exOk89RTOv91TufDRmwn37eQT9aRZELA9k5cidM= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:32:34 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-Reply-To: <00a901c75228$eb9a35b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <17a001c75226$acfac920$3800a8c0@zothan> <00a901c75228$eb9a35b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/16/07, David Thomson wrote: > Hi Michel, > > > Beware of the MIB Dave, unless the MIW get hold of you first? :) > > I have no clue what you are talking about. "Men In White" . . . coats, that is. BTW, 'Michel' is usually a man's name in french. Probably the first rap record: http://it.stlawu.edu/~x0tsing/takeaway.htm Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 06:34:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HEY9ge002031; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:34:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HEY7LC002014; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:34:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:34:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007901c752a0$ad6438e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:34:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HEY5ev001984 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: Oh and to remove the ethical fly from the whale oil ointment: _whale liposuction_ to harvest the bladders without killing the whales :)) I googled up the expression and found it had already been suggested e.g.: http://swcamborne.com/archives/business-success/liposuction-for-whales It remains now to be determined if the complete scheme is workable and/or original. Comments/criticisms/calculations welcome. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:53 PM Subject: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > Steven Krivit wrote: >> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson. >> >> http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html > > So it seems iron fertilization does enhance algae growth after all, by creating more or less instantaneous blooms, and the (old) idea is not George's but Martin's like Jones said. I had no idea there was a lack of iron in the oceans, this probably means this element is the limiting factor for ocean surface algae photosynthesis. What is not clear at all if if this scheme is a net atmospheric carbon absorber in the long term, let's assume it isn't (algae re-emit GHGs when they die, so do the fish that eat them), so we still need to harvest and sequester. > > Ok let's pursue the whale herd idea of my earlier post for harvesting and sequestering, and let's throw in the iron fertilization factor since it works: > > 1/ Let's equip the whales with iron dispensers spurting iron solution around when there is sunlight for photosynthesis to occur. This way the algae will grow where and when they can be harvested :) And the whale herd will grow too. > > 2/ Instead of going whale hunting like in the good old days, couldn't we take advantage of the beasties' gluttony to remote control them to their oceanic pastures and back? All that would be needed would be an embarked GPS, a radio for two way communication with the "whale boys" in their control rooms on land, and ways to direct the iron solution spurts to where we want the whales to follow the blooms :) > > How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ? > > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 07:11:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HFB6R2022354; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 07:11:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HFB5aR022343; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 07:11:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 07:11:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008e01c752a5$d71fdea0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <007901c752a0$ad6438e0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:11:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HFB32C022320 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: Oops I mistyped, I meant "harvest the blubbers" (fat layer under the whale skin, from which whale oil is extracted) not the bladders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blubber Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:34 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > Oh and to remove the ethical fly from the whale oil ointment: _whale liposuction_ to harvest the bladders without killing the whales :)) I googled up the expression and found it had already been suggested e.g.: > > http://swcamborne.com/archives/business-success/liposuction-for-whales > > It remains now to be determined if the complete scheme is workable and/or original. Comments/criticisms/calculations welcome. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:53 PM > Subject: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > > >> Steven Krivit wrote: >>> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson. >>> >>> http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html >> >> So it seems iron fertilization does enhance algae growth after all, by creating more or less instantaneous blooms, and the (old) idea is not George's but Martin's like Jones said. I had no idea there was a lack of iron in the oceans, this probably means this element is the limiting factor for ocean surface algae photosynthesis. What is not clear at all if if this scheme is a net atmospheric carbon absorber in the long term, let's assume it isn't (algae re-emit GHGs when they die, so do the fish that eat them), so we still need to harvest and sequester. >> >> Ok let's pursue the whale herd idea of my earlier post for harvesting and sequestering, and let's throw in the iron fertilization factor since it works: >> >> 1/ Let's equip the whales with iron dispensers spurting iron solution around when there is sunlight for photosynthesis to occur. This way the algae will grow where and when they can be harvested :) And the whale herd will grow too. >> >> 2/ Instead of going whale hunting like in the good old days, couldn't we take advantage of the beasties' gluttony to remote control them to their oceanic pastures and back? All that would be needed would be an embarked GPS, a radio for two way communication with the "whale boys" in their control rooms on land, and ways to direct the iron solution spurts to where we want the whales to follow the blooms :) >> >> How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ? >> >> Michel >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 08:23:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HGNVM7006537; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:23:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HGNSOS006509; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:23:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:22:33 -0600 Message-ID: <00f801c752af$e1f717d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <005c01c75297$0f07d7a0$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: AcdSl3M4X5ZMsltWRMyNNg1U5OiJlwAFun4w Resent-Message-ID: <_FhH_C.A.olB._vy1FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, I haven't dated for over 20 years, so it really doesn't matter whether female Vo's exist at all. I don't think in terms of relationships like most people do. When I see women, I just see more people. What I look for in people is whether they have a good heart or not, the other parts aren't all that interesting. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:25 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > > Before you try dating me Dave, you should know that female Vo's exist only > in your dreams :) > > http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Michel > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Thomson" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:54 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > > > > Hi Michel, > > > >> > I know Michel thought I was kidding her... > >> ... > >> > Dave > >> > >> Even worse than I thought. Dave when the MIW come don't forget > mentioning > >> you talked with a female Vo :))) > >> > >> Michel > > > > What are you trying to say, that you are as crazy as I am? I doubt it! > My > > life is so bizarre even I have to question my own sanity. ;-) > > > > Dave > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 10:02:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HI2eVj031170; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:02:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HI2cfj031146; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:02:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:02:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:59:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-reply-to: <45D53AE3.3090005@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HI2XYP031109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Harry: >> The raison d'être of GR is to explain gravity. > Stephen: > That's right. But you don't need it to resolve the twins problem, which > takes place in flat space. I am confused. In your first response to me you started off by saying the opposite: > Harry: >> That works in SR, but the solution is inconsistent with GR. > > Stephen: > Wrong. In fact the full solution can only be had using techniques > commonly considered to be part of GR. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 10:45:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HIjNZk019550; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:45:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HIXvAG011492; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:33:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:33:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:30:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <005501c75295$46ea3f70$d5da163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >>> I did it with a balance beam and a pointer, and saw nothing significant. >>> Also did it set up as a torsion arm. >> >> How did you calibrate your scale? > > You don't really "calibrate" a simple balance beam or torsion arm. There is > no scale, just beam, pointer, and a ruler positioned next to the pointer. A > laser pointer is unnecessary and inacurate as well... consider the spot size > of a red laser pointer compared the the thickness of a sewing needle. You > just make it long enough and rigid enough that if you drop a bit of lint on > one end of it, the pointer at the other end will give a visible indication > of movement. ok. > An unshielded, open-air lifter will move a long balance beam undeniably. > Very easy to see. The torsion arm is even better, you can make the thing > spin complete revolutions. When the shield is added, nothing happens. So the lifter was oriented so it would move horizontally rather than vertically ? > I know it is going to be suggested that the added weight of the shields > increased the weight and swamped the "effect". This thought was not lost on > my, so I hung the shield just below the test Lifter, with the lifter exposed > to air, to see if it could visibly push the added mass of the shields. It > did with little difficulty. When the lifter was then placed within the > shield, no thrust. Very good. Did both tests rely on horizontal motion? > I suggest, if anyone else wishes to try this, to run one lead wire up from > the floor to the lifter, and one down from the ceiling to it, and make the > wires meet close to the pivot or axis of the balance beam. Otherwise, the > lead wires will give artifacts. > > --Kyle > harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 10:54:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HIs2Gd026376; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:54:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HIrx3a026343; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:53:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:53:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:50:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters In-reply-to: <005c01c75297$b8263700$d5da163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > > >> No extra force in oil, it works just the same as a lifter it's an EHD >> thruster, called "ion drag pump" when the medium is a dielectric liquid >> and the thruster is stationary: oil molecules are ionized, and ion current >> from a sharper electrode to a flatter electrode entrains neutrals. > > I agree with this. It is also obvious to see the "flow" of oil around the > electrodes. One can use a clear oil, like mineral oil, and take a darkly > colored oil and squirt a bit into the mineral oil in front of the submerged > lifter and see how it is sucked through the lifter...it will grab onto and > carry quite a bit of extra oil along for the ride. > > You are right about the pump part too: a lifter also works as a fair vacuum > pump. If it is held stationary in a suitable glass vessel, and put between > whatever one wishes to pull to a vacuum, and the output of the stationary > lifter is sent to a dual rotary vane pump, you can get a good deal harder > vacuum then if only the rotary vane pump was being used. > > --Kyle > > Then why did you say "made to work by sucking and pumping the oil?" Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 10:58:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HIvwEg028533; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:57:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HIvuPR028513; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:57:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:57:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:54:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <031801c75280$c009aea0$9900a8c0@TOSHIBA> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HIvqrG028471 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bacterial Gene May Affect Climate Status: O X-Status: Bacterial Gene May Affect Climate And Weather Science Daily A University of Queensland microbiologist is part of an international team that has identified a bacterial gene that may affect climate and weather. Dr Phil Bond, from UQ's Advanced Wastewater Management Centre, and his former colleagues at the University of East Anglia in England, have found how a particular type of marine bacteria – Marinomonas – generates a compound that is a key component in global sulfur and carbon cycles. “Marine algae can produce large amounts of a compound (dimethylsulfoniopropionate or DMSP) that when broken down by bacteria produces dimethyl sulfide (DMS),” Dr Bond said. “DMS then enters the atmosphere and is thought to contribute to condensation of water vapour and cloud formation. “These algae can be found in such large numbers in the world's oceans that the amount of DMS released can increase the reflection of sunlight by clouds which may contribute to a reduction in global temperature. “The bacteria are opportunists here, that are likely getting something out of the DMSP degradation which causes the release of DMS. It is this process that also gives the sea its smell.” Dr Bond isolated the bacterium Marinomonas from the east coast of the UK and the research team was able to identify the gene that is responsible for the bacteria being able to change DMSP to DMS. Dr Bond said while the research unlocked a vital part of the microbial puzzle, still more work needed to be done. “By finding how this process works, as we have done, it opens the door to further research into how these, and other similar bacteria, affect the global flux of sulfur and carbon and their impact on the climate,” Dr Bond said. “This research really does show how integral something as simple as microbial interactions may be to our entire environment.” The research was recently published in Science, one the world's top scientific journals. Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by University of Queensland. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 11:09:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HJ97mX010250; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:09:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HJ95TX010227; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:09:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:09:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:05:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters In-reply-to: <004701c7528c$4c1a9ca0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is good. Your mechanical analogy is becoming more refined. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > No extra force in oil, it works just the same as a lifter it's an EHD > thruster, called "ion drag pump" when the medium is a dielectric liquid and > the thruster is stationary: oil molecules are ionized, and ion current from a > sharper electrode to a flatter electrode entrains neutrals. > > You can picture an EHD thruster as a paddle wheel boat: while the charges > carried by the ions (=paddles) move through the medium (=water) they drag it > backwards, the rest of the time they are recirculated from the back to the > front of the thruster by the power supply (= the boat's engine). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > > >> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michel Jullian" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM >>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters >>> >>> >>> They can be made to work in oil, by sucking and pushing the oil past the >>> electrodes. But again this is not reactionless/antigravity/what have you, >>> its a simple toy that needs a dielectric medium to work in. In space, this >>> thing is a real loser. >> >> >> I notice you said "they can be MADE TO WORK by sucking and pushing" >> Evidently they only work in the oil medium if another force exists >> to suck and push the oil force. >> >> Now if such extra force is required when the apparatus is in an oil medium, >> does it not stand to reason that an extra force (albeit much >> smaller in magnitude) is needed for the apparatus to work in air? >> >> Harry >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 12:18:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HKI5WT023187; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:18:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HKI3Wa023166; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:18:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=BAnI0feza6BoJ9xCKYJSEJGa8s0y2hDujL6tdaELO58EMU3XZ9XvlizrXZw98r/jM7SNLpeM/rwzEAVZf2A0GO4jXJmklJ/XCJafDiwIymGIgS1HD5XCl9txr3AjJ0FNUz5Lr05dO8BM20IYzyMdw+64tJTD8W7PLCZ6A8ESIUU= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:18:01 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-Reply-To: <16e001c751e5$e7012100$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12997_17488279.1171743481779" References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D518DC.6080802@pobox.com> <05d801c751b3$610baf20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D5C93B.6090308@pobox.com> <16e001c751e5$e7012100$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <1DVUFD.A.4pF.7L21FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_12997_17488279.1171743481779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/17/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >An accelerometer is a purely "local" >instrument (which, of course, can't tell the difference between gravity >and acceleration). Actually there is a way, or technically 2 ways at least. (besides the fact that experiments have shown that things don't all drop at the same speed meaning that there is a difference between inertial force and gravity) One way is to measure the difference at the floor and ceiling (typically this thought experiment takes place in an elevator).and measure the difference as gravity is of course going to be stronger at the bottom, where a constant acceleration will be equal at each end. The other way is to measures the curvature of the gravity field (measure it's convergence/divergence). But the more important hole is that in real world experiments it is found that things can drop at very different speeds, for instance an iron sphere and a carbon sphere both of the same weight, the carbon sphere will fall faster despite being much larger hence having greater drag. In another case Don A. Kelly, a Free Energy researcher made a device which consisted of a bread board with a bunch of magnets layed out somehow, this would drop something like 1/3rd slower that it should. On 2/17/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > But enough bickering. Talking about "centrifugal force", you do know that > by running around a bucket of water you incurve the water as if it was > centrifuged don't you? :) Ok, I just tried it, I ran really really fast and you are wrong ;) Funny, now I know your a girl I feel bad about stuff I previously said ;) There are far far too few female interested in science, physics especially and alt science most of all. ------=_Part_12997_17488279.1171743481779 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/17/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
>An accelerometer is a purely "local"
>instrument (which, of course, can't tell the difference between gravity
>and acceleration).

Actually there is a way, or technically 2  ways at least. (besides the fact that experiments have shown that things don't all drop at the same speed meaning that there is a difference between inertial force and gravity)

One way is to measure the difference at the floor and ceiling (typically this thought experiment takes place in an elevator).and measure the difference as gravity is of course going to be stronger at the bottom, where a constant acceleration will be equal at each end.

The other way is to measures the curvature of the gravity field (measure it's convergence/divergence).

But the more important hole is that in real world experiments it is found that things can drop at very different speeds, for instance an iron sphere and a carbon sphere both of the same weight, the carbon sphere will fall faster despite being much larger hence having greater drag.

In another case Don A. Kelly, a Free Energy researcher made a device which consisted of a bread board with a bunch of magnets layed out somehow, this would drop something like 1/3rd slower that it should.


On 2/17/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
But enough bickering. Talking about "centrifugal force", you do know that by running around a bucket of water you incurve the water as if it was centrifuged don't you?  :)

Ok, I just tried it, I ran really really fast and you are wrong ;)
 
Funny, now I know your a girl I feel bad about stuff I previously said ;)
There are far far too few female interested in science, physics especially and alt science most of all.

------=_Part_12997_17488279.1171743481779-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 12:26:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HKQSYs030283; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:26:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HKQPdf030250; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:26:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:26:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:26:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <14pet2p12o688jrrvg4c42dc7bmev8mtjj@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <007901c752a0$ad6438e0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <007901c752a0$ad6438e0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:26:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HKQNeh030228 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:34:05 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Oh and to remove the ethical fly from the whale oil ointment: _whale liposuction_ to harvest the bladders without killing the whales :)) I googled up the expression and found it had already been suggested e.g.: > >http://swcamborne.com/archives/business-success/liposuction-for-whales > >It remains now to be determined if the complete scheme is workable and/or original. Comments/criticisms/calculations welcome. > >Michel > Unlike some humans, whales have developed their blubber layer for a reason. Being warm blooded they need it to survive low temperatures. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 12:45:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HKj5b8006771; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:45:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HKj4dQ006745; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:45:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:45:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=siomlJz4sioUdkMovAibfjwBmaE1IbVHr9yTVTOIeUqg2m8dMq1kLvF25odLq6hMI+EuceqyiuQyIxGCM/OUHfIi8r3lqNgbIkNCwEUurOdCKT3mBAvZN1l/OmxXQ3/dk13soitMHby3e7b4U/GBVz9EQ8Ep9UC13H53fbA/8yY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:45:03 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: No Peak Oil In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And, from Russia, with love: http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/peakoil.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 12:57:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HKvHuY019231; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:57:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HKvEk1019200; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:57:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:57:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c752d6$2fded480$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45D4D1A7.8030402@pobox.com> <054c01c7515a$63ce27f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D518DC.6080802@pobox.com> <05d801c751b3$610baf20$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D5C93B.6090308@pobox.com> <16e001c751e5$e7012100$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:57:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HKv7dU019166 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox >> ...Talking about "centrifugal force", you do know that >> by running around a bucket of water you incurve the water as if it was >> centrifuged don't you? :) > > > Ok, I just tried it, I ran really really fast and you are wrong ;) Anyway, the water did really curve through the effect of the gravitational waves you emitted, only the effect was too small for you to see. If your mass had been comparable to that of the universe, the effect would have been quite noticeable. In fact if you had been the universe itself, the bucket would have thought it was being centrifuged wrt you. Michel (without an "e" at the end, enough of this) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:20:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNJpku027443; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:19:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNJmWE027413; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:19:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:19:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c752ea$149f2f30$5e91163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:19:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > So the lifter was oriented so it would move horizontally rather than > vertically ? In some tests, it was set to move horizontally, in others, upwards or downwards. >> I know it is going to be suggested that the added weight of the shields >> increased the weight and swamped the "effect". This thought was not lost >> on >> my, so I hung the shield just below the test Lifter, with the lifter >> exposed >> to air, to see if it could visibly push the added mass of the shields. It >> did with little difficulty. When the lifter was then placed within the >> shield, no thrust. > > Very good. Did both tests rely on horizontal motion? No, I did both. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:22:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNMPQ5028720; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:22:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNMOgm028699; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:22:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:22:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c752ea$71024eb0$5e91163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:21:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > > Then why did you say "made to work by sucking and pumping the oil?" > What I mean by that is, the lifter worked, as in produced thrust, when in oil, by sucking in the oil and then "pumping" it through itself. Put another way, it acts exactly the same in oil as in air, the only difference is the dielectric medium is now a liquid instead of a gas. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:35:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNZe4d007500; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:35:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNZd8o007486; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:35:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:35:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UotGki096tRusFUf7i9nlw4IDTaXM5Y0nulZeRDhPFlXWVwxHDsrxhMRy3iNHTW/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072617233514269@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:35:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f7fae08b1cbcbacfb969f289abba2c9e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.171 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Lehmann also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2. Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant root system aids plant growth. Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that. Fred http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_home.htm Bio-char or Agri-char: the new frontier Inspired by the fascinating properties of Terra Preta de Indio, bio-char is a soil amendment that has the potential to revolutionize concepts of soil management. While "discovered" may not be the right word, as bio-char (also called charcoal or biomass-derived black carbon, recently in context of agricultural application also named agri-char) has been used in traditional agricultural practices as well as in modern horticulture, never before has evidence been accumulating that demonstrates so convincingly that bio-char has very specific and unique properties that make it stand out among the opportunities for sustainable soil management. The benefits of bio-char rest on two pillars: 1- The extremely high affinity of nutrients to bio-char 2- The extremely high persistence of bio-char These two properties (which are truly extraordinary - see details below) can be used effectively to address some of the most urgent environmental problems of our time: 1- Soil degradation and food insecurity 2- Water pollution from agro-chemicals 3- Climate change "Soils with bio-char additions are typically more fertile, produce more and better crops for a longer period of time." THE TWO PILLARS OF BIO-CHAR PROPERTIES Nutrient Affinity All organic matter added to soil significantly improves various soil functions, not the least the retention of several nutrients that are essential to plant growth. What is special about bio-char is that it is much more effective in retaining most nutrients and keeping them available to plants than other organic matter for example common leaf litter, compost or manures. Interestingly, this is also true for phosphorus which is not at all retained by 'normal' soil organic matter. Reading: Sombroek, W., Nachtergaele, F.O. and Hebel, A.: 1993, ?Amounts, dynamics and sequestering of carbon in tropical and subtropical soils', Ambio 22, 417-426. Mikan, C.J. and Abrams, M.D.: 1995, 'Altered forest composition and soil properties of historic charcoal hearths in southeastern Pennsylvania', Canadian Journal of Forestry Research 25, 687-696. Lehmann, J., da Silva Jr., J.P., Steiner, C., Nehls, T., Zech, W. and Glaser, B.: 2003a, ?Nutrient availability and leaching in an archaeological Anthrosol and a Ferralsol of the Central Amazon basin: fertilizer, manure and charcoal amendments', Plant and Soil 249 , 343-357. Lehmann, J., Kern, D.C., German, L.A., McCann, J., Martins, G.C. and Moreira, A.: 2003b, ?Soil Fertility and Production Potential', in J. Lehmann, D.C. Kern, B. Glaser and W.I. Woods (eds.), Amazonian Dark Earths: Origin, Properties, Management , Dordrecht, Kluwer Academic Publishers, pp. 105-124. Liang, B. , Lehmann, J., Solomon, D., Kinyangi, J., Grossman, J., O'Neill, B., Skjemstad, J.O., Thies, J., Luizão, F.J., Petersen, J. and Neves, E.G.: 2006, 'Black carbon increases cation exchange capacity in soils', Soil Science Society of America Journal 70: 1719-1730. Persistence It is undisputed that bio-char is much more persistent in soil than any other form of organic matter that is commonly applied to soil. Therefore, all associated benefits with respect to nutrient retention and soil fertility are longer lasting than with alternative management. The long persistence of bio-char in soil also make it a prime candidate for the mitigation of climate change as a potential sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide. The success of effective reduction of greenhouse gases depends on the associated net emission reductions through bio-char sequestration. However, a net emission reduction can only be achieved in conjunction with sustainable management of biomass production. During the conversion of biomass to bio-char about 50% of the original carbon is retained in the bio-char, which offers a significant opportunity for creating such a carbon sink. Reading: Pessenda, L.C.R., Gouveia, S.E.M. and Aravena, R.: 2001, ?Radiocarbon dating of total soil organic matter and humin fraction and its comparison with 14 C ages of fossil charcoal', Radiocarbon 43 , 595-601. Seifritz, W.: 1993, ?Should we store carbon in charcoal?', International Journal of Hydrogen Energy 18 , 405-407. Schmidt, M.W.I. and Noack, A.G.: 2000, ?Black carbon in soils and sediments: analysis, distribution, implications, and current challenges', Global Biogeochemical Cycles 14 , 777-794. Shindo, H.: 1991, ?Elementary composition, humus composition, and decomposition in soil of charred grassland plants', Soil Science and Plant Nutrition 37 , 651-657. MEETING ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES -(in preparation)- LAND-USE SYSTEMS AND BIO-CHAR USE Bio-fuel production through low-temperature pyrolysis "Combining bio-energy production with bio-char application to soil offers one of the most exciting perspectives of future land-based production technologies." (read more about Bio-char and Bio-energy) Reading: Okimori, Y., Ogawa, M. and Takahashi, F.: 2003, ?Potential of CO2 emission reductions by carbonizing biomass waste from industrial tree plantation in south Sumatra , Indonesia ', Mitigation and Adaptation Straegies for Global Change 8 , 261-280. http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_energy.htm Bio-Energy and Bio-char This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming. While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from biomass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits. The proposed technology is low-temperature pyrolysis that yields bio-oil, hydrogen or directly electricity as the energy carrier (including valuable co-products), with bio-oil being the more advanced and more wide-spread technology (Meier and Faix 1999; Bridgwater et al. 2002). The biomass feedstock may include a wide variety of biomass (Yaman 2004) such as wood chips or pellets, bark, crop residues such as nut shells or rice husks, and grass residues such as bagasse from the sugarcane industry. More importantly, however, planted energy crops can be used with the sole purpose of producing bio-fuels, such as short-rotation woody plants (e.g. willow), grasses (e.g. Miscanthus spp.), or herbaceous plants. The key for securing environmental benefits is the production of a bio-char by-product during pyrolysis which can be applied to soil. Reading: Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579. Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427 Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74. Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversion and Management 45 , 651-671. News Feature article in NATURE: Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Lehmann also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2.
 
Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields
than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant
root system aids plant growth.
 
Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of
square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that.
 
Fred
 
 

Bio-char or Agri-char: the new frontier


Inspired by the fascinating properties of Terra Preta de Indio, bio-char is a soil amendment that has the potential to revolutionize concepts of soil management. While "discovered" may not be the right word, as bio-char (also called charcoal or biomass-derived black carbon, recently in context of agricultural application also named agri-char) has been used in traditional agricultural practices as well as in modern horticulture, never before has evidence been accumulating that demonstrates so convincingly that bio-char has very specific and unique properties that make it stand out among the opportunities for sustainable soil management.

The benefits of bio-char rest on two pillars:
1- The extremely high affinity of nutrients to bio-char
2- The extremely high persistence of bio-char

These two properties (which are truly extraordinary - see details below) can be used effectively to address some of the most urgent environmental problems of our time:
1- Soil degradation and food insecurity
2- Water pollution from agro-chemicals
3- Climate change

"Soils with bio-char additions are typically more fertile, produce more and better crops for a longer period of time."

THE TWO PILLARS OF BIO-CHAR PROPERTIES

Nutrient Affinity
All organic matter added to soil significantly improves various soil functions, not the least the retention of several nutrients that are essential to plant growth. What is special about bio-char is that it is much more effective in retaining most nutrients and keeping them available to plants than other organic matter for example common leaf litter, compost or manures. Interestingly, this is also true for phosphorus which is not at all retained by 'normal' soil organic matter.
Reading:
Sombroek, W., Nachtergaele, F.O. and Hebel, A.: 1993, ?Amounts, dynamics and sequestering of carbon in tropical and subtropical soils', Ambio 22, 417-426.
Mikan, C.J. and Abrams, M.D.: 1995, 'Altered forest composition and soil properties of historic charcoal hearths in southeastern Pennsylvania', Canadian Journal of Forestry Research 25, 687-696.
Lehmann, J., da Silva Jr., J.P., Steiner, C., Nehls, T., Zech, W. and Glaser, B.: 2003a, ?Nutrient availability and leaching in an archaeological Anthrosol and a Ferralsol of the Central Amazon basin: fertilizer, manure and charcoal amendments', Plant and Soil 249 , 343-357.
Lehmann, J., Kern, D.C., German, L.A., McCann, J., Martins, G.C. and Moreira, A.: 2003b, ?Soil Fertility and Production Potential', in J. Lehmann, D.C. Kern, B. Glaser and W.I. Woods (eds.), Amazonian Dark Earths: Origin, Properties, Management , Dordrecht, Kluwer Academic Publishers, pp. 105-124.
Liang, B. , Lehmann, J., Solomon, D., Kinyangi, J., Gr! ossman, J., O'Neill, B., Skjemstad, J.O., Thies, J., Luizão, F.J., Petersen, J. and Neves, E.G.: 2006, 'Black carbon increases cation exchange capacity in soils', Soil Science Society of America Journal 70: 1719-1730.

Persistence
It is undisputed that bio-char is much more persistent in soil than any other form of organic matter that is commonly applied to soil. Therefore, all associated benefits with respect to nutrient retention and soil fertility are longer lasting than with alternative management. The long persistence of bio-char in soil also make it a prime candidate for the mitigation of climate change as a potential sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide. The success of effective reduction of greenhouse gases depends on the associated net emission reductions through bio-char sequestration. However, a net emission reduction can only be achieved in conjunction with sustainable management of biomass production. During the conversion of biomass to bio-char about 50% of the original carbon is retained in the bio-char, which offers a significant opportunity for creating such a carbon sink.
Reading:
Pessenda, L.C.R., Gouveia, S.E.M. and Aravena, R.: 2001, ?Radiocarbon dating of total soil organic matter and humin fraction and its comparison with 14 C ages of fossil charcoal', Radiocarbon 43 , 595-601.
Seifritz, W.: 1993, ?Should we store carbon in charcoal?', International Journal of Hydrogen Energy 18 , 405-407.
Schmidt, M.W.I. and Noack, A.G.: 2000, ?Black carbon in soils and sediments: analysis, distribution, implications, and current challenges', Global Biogeochemical Cycles 14 , 777-794.
Shindo, H.: 1991, ?Elementary composition, humus composition, and decomposition in soil of charred grassland plants', Soil Science and Plant Nutrition 37 , 651-657.

MEETING ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES

-(in preparation)-

 

LAND-USE SYSTEMS AND BIO-CHAR USE

 

Bio-fuel production through low-temperature pyrolysis

 

"Combining bio-energy production with bio-char application to soil offers one of the most exciting perspectives of future land-based production technologies."

(read more about Bio-char and Bio-energy)

 

Reading:
Okimori, Y., Ogawa, M. and Takahashi, F.: 2003, ?Potential of CO2 emission reductions by carbonizing biomass waste from industrial tree plantation in south Sumatra , Indonesia ', Mitigation and Adaptation Straegies for Global Change 8 , 261-280.

http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_energy.htm

Bio-Energy and Bio-char

This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming.

While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from biomass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits.

The proposed technology is low-temperature pyrolysis that yields bio-oil, hydrogen or directly electricity as the energy carrier (including valuable co-products), with bio-oil being the more advanced and more wide-spread technology (Meier and Faix 1999; Bridgwater et al. 2002). The biomass feedstock may include a wide variety of biomass (Yaman 2004) such as wood chips or pellets, bark, crop residues such as nut shells or rice husks, and grass residues such as bagasse from the sugarcane industry. More importantly, however, planted energy crops can be used with the sole purpose of producing bio-fuels, such as short-rotation woody plants (e.g. willow), grasses (e.g. Miscanthus spp.), or herbaceous plants. The key for securing environmental benefits is the production of a bio-char by-product during pyrolysis which can be applied to soil.

Reading:
Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579.
Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427
Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74.
Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversion and Management 45 , 651-671.

News Feature article in NATURE:
Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:45:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNivAv013699; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:44:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNiuob013683; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:44:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qswoTtrsW1/82hS+lL3T9KbLUrOKN/JADHyQMPqH/n0Z41WjMj79/1BCSz8/IsdQ; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072617234427725@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:44:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400d8cb3aad364495938b19b6139d68e91350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.171 Resent-Message-ID: <4zA4CB.A.vVD.3N51FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Lehmann (Cornell University) also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2. Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant root system aids plant growth. Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that. Fred http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_home.htm Bio-char or Agri-char: the new frontier Inspired by the fascinating properties of Terra Preta de Indio, bio-char is a soil amendment that has the potential to revolutionize concepts of soil management. While "discovered" may not be the right word, as bio-char (also called charcoal or biomass-derived black carbon, recently in context of agricultural application also named agri-char) has been used in traditional agricultural practices as well as in modern horticulture, never before has evidence been accumulating that demonstrates so convincingly that bio-char has very specific and unique properties that make it stand out among the opportunities for sustainable soil management. The benefits of bio-char rest on two pillars: 1- The extremely high affinity of nutrients to bio-char 2- The extremely high persistence of bio-char These two properties (which are truly extraordinary - see details below) can be used effectively to address some of the most urgent environmental problems of our time: 1- Soil degradation and food insecurity 2- Water pollution from agro-chemicals 3- Climate change "Soils with bio-char additions are typically more fertile, produce more and better crops for a longer period of time." THE TWO PILLARS OF BIO-CHAR PROPERTIES Nutrient Affinity All organic matter added to soil significantly improves various soil functions, not the least the retention of several nutrients that are essential to plant growth. What is special about bio-char is that it is much more effective in retaining most nutrients and keeping them available to plants than other organic matter for example common leaf litter, compost or manures. Interestingly, this is also true for phosphorus which is not at all retained by 'normal' soil organic matter. Reading: Sombroek, W., Nachtergaele, F.O. and Hebel, A.: 1993, ?Amounts, dynamics and sequestering of carbon in tropical and subtropical soils', Ambio 22, 417-426. Mikan, C.J. and Abrams, M.D.: 1995, 'Altered forest composition and soil properties of historic charcoal hearths in southeastern Pennsylvania', Canadian Journal of Forestry ! Research 25, 687-696. Lehmann, J., da Silva Jr., J.P., Steiner, C., Nehls, T., Zech, W. and Glaser, B.: 2003a, ?Nutrient availability and leaching in an archaeological Anthrosol and a Ferralsol of the Central Amazon basin: fertilizer, manure and charcoal amendments', Plant and Soil 249 , 343-357. Lehmann, J., Kern, D.C., German, L.A., McCann, J., Martins, G.C. and Moreira, A.: 2003b, ?Soil Fertility and Production Potential', in J. Lehmann, D.C. Kern, B. Glaser and W.I. Woods (eds.), Amazonian Dark Earths: Origin, Properties, Management , Dordrecht, Kluwer Academic Publishers, pp. 105-1! 24. Liang, B. , Lehmann, J., Solomon, D., Kinyangi, J., Gr! ossman, J., O'Neill, B., Skjemstad, J.O., Thies, J., Luizão, F.J., Petersen, J. and Neves, E.G.: 2006, 'Black carbon increases cation exchange capacity in soils', Soil Science Society of America Journal 70: 1719-1730. Persistence It is undisputed that bio-char is much more persistent in soil than any other form of organic matter that is commonly applied to soil. Therefore, all associated benefits with respect to nutrient retention and soil fertility are longer lasting than with alternative management. The long persistence of bio-char in soil also make it a prime candidate for the mitigation of climate change as a potential sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide. The success of effective reduction of greenhouse gases depends on the associated net emission reductions through bio-char sequestration. However, a net emission reduction can only be achieved in conjunction with sustainable management of biomass production. During the conversion of biomass to bio-char about 50% of the original carbon is retained in the bio-char, which offers a significant opportunity for creating such a carbon sink. Reading: Pessenda, L.C.R., Gouveia, S.E.M. and Aravena, R.: 2001, ?Radiocarbon dating of total soil organic matter and humin fraction and its comparison with 14 C ages of fossil charcoal', Radiocarbon 43 , 595-601. Seifritz, W.: 1993, ?Should we store carbon in charcoal?', International Journal of Hydrogen Energy 18 , 405-407. Schmidt, M.W.I. and Noack, A.G.: 2000, ?Black carbon in soils and sediments: analysis, distribution, implications, and current challenges', Global Biogeochemical Cycles 14 , 777-794. Shindo, H.: 1991, ?Elementary composition, humus composition, and decomposition in soil of charred grassland plants', Soil Science and Plant Nutrition 37 , 651-657. MEETING ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES -(in preparation)- LAND-USE SYSTEMS AND BIO-CHAR USE Bio-fuel production through low-temperature pyrolysis "Combining bio-energy production with bio-char application to soil offers one of the most exciting perspectives of future land-based production technologies." (read more about Bio-char and Bio-energy) Reading: Okimori, Y., Ogawa, M. and Takahashi, F.: 2003, ?Potential of CO2 emission reductions by carbonizing biomass waste from industrial tree plantation in south Sumatra , Indonesia ', Mitigation and Adaptation Straegies for Global Change 8 , 261-280. http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_energy.htm Bio-Energy and Bio-char This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming. While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from bio! mass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits. The proposed technology is low-temperature pyrolysis that yields bio-oil, hydrogen or directly electricity as the energy carrier (including valuable co-products), with bio-oil being the more advanced and more wide-spread technology (Meier and Faix 1999; Bridgwater et al. 2002). The biomass feedstock may include a wide variety of biomass (Yaman 2004) such as wood chips or pellets, bark, crop residues such as nut shells or rice husks, and grass residues such as bagasse from the sugarcane industry. More importantly, however, planted energy crops can be used with the sole purpose of producing bio-fuels, such as short-rotation woody plants (e.g. willow), grasses (e.g. Miscanthus spp.), or herbaceous plants. The key for securing environmental benefits is the production of a bio-char by-product during pyrolysis which can be applied to soil. Reading: Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579. Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427 Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74. Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversion and Management 45 , 651-671. News Feature article in NATURE: Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Lehmann (Cornell University) also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2.
 
Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields
than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant
root system aids plant growth.
 
Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of
square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that.
 
Fred
 
 

Bio-char or Agri-char: the new frontier


Inspired by the fascinating properties of Terra Preta de Indio, bio-char is a soil amendment that has the potential to revolutionize concepts of soil management. While "discovered" may not be the right word, as bio-char (also called charcoal or biomass-derived black carbon, recently in context of agricultural application also named agri-char) has been used in traditional agricultural practices as well as in modern horticulture, never before has evidence been accumulating that demonstrates so convincingly that bio-char has very specific and unique properties that make it stand out among the opportunities for sustainable soil management.

The benefits of bio-char rest on two pillars:
1- The extremely high affinity of nutrients to bio-char
2- The extremely high persistence of bio-char

These two properties (which are truly extraordinary - see details below) can be used effectively to address some of the most urgent environmental problems of our time:
1- Soil degradation and food insecurity
2- Water pollution from agro-chemicals
3- Climate change

"Soils with bio-char additions are typically more fertile, produce more and better crops for a longer period of time."

THE TWO PILLARS OF BIO-CHAR PROPERTIES

Nutrient Affinity
All organic matter added to soil significantly improves various soil functions, not the least the retention of several nutrients that are essential to plant growth. What is special about bio-char is that it is much more effective in retaining most nutrients and keeping them available to plants than other organic matter for example common leaf litter, compost or manures. Interestingly, this is also true for phosphorus which is not at all retained by 'normal' soil organic matter.
Reading:
Sombroek, W., Nachtergaele, F.O. and Hebel, A.: 1993, ?Amounts, dynamics and sequestering of carbon in tropical and subtropical soils', Ambio 22, 417-426.
Mikan, C.J. and Abrams, M.D.: 1995, 'Altered forest composition and soil properties of historic charcoal hearths in southeastern Pennsylvania', Canadian Journal of Forestry ! Research 25, 687-696.
Lehmann, J., da Silva Jr., J.P., Steiner, C., Nehls, T., Zech, W. and Glaser, B.: 2003a, ?Nutrient availability and leaching in an archaeological Anthrosol and a Ferralsol of the Central Amazon basin: fertilizer, manure and charcoal amendments', Plant and Soil 249 , 343-357.
Lehmann, J., Kern, D.C., German, L.A., McCann, J., Martins, G.C. and Moreira, A.: 2003b, ?Soil Fertility and Production Potential', in J. Lehmann, D.C. Kern, B. Glaser and W.I. Woods (eds.), Amazonian Dark Earths: Origin, Properties, Management , Dordrecht, Kluwer Academic Publishers, pp. 105-1! 24.
Liang, B. , Lehmann, J., Solo! mon, D., Kinyangi, J., Gr! ossman, J., O'Neill, B., Skjemstad, J.O., Thies, J., Luizão, F.J., Petersen, J. and Neves, E.G.: 2006, 'Black carbon increases cation exchange capacity in soils', Soil Science Society of America Journal 70: 1719-1730.

Persistence
It is undisputed that bio-char is much more persistent in soil than any other form of organic matter that is commonly applied to soil. Therefore, all associated benefits with respect to nutrient retention and soil fertility are longer lasting than with alternative management. The long persistence of bio-char in soil also make it a prime candidate for the mitigation of climate change as a potential sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide. The success of effective reduction of greenhouse gases depends on the associated net emission reductions through bio-char sequestration. However, a net emission reduction can only be achieved in conjunction with sustainable management of biomass production. During the conversion of biomass to bio-char about 50% of the original carbon is retained in the bio-char, which offers a significant opportunity for creating such a carbon sink.
Reading:
Pessenda, L.C.R., Gouveia, S.E.M. and Aravena, R.: 2001, ?Radiocarbon dating of total soil organic matter and humin fraction and its comparison with 14 C ages of fossil charcoal', Radiocarbon 43 , 595-601.
Seifritz, W.: 1993, ?Should we store carbon in charcoal?', International Journal of Hydrogen Energy 18 , 405-407.
Schmidt, M.W.I. and Noack, A.G.: 2000, ?Black carbon in soils and sediments: analysis, distribution, implications, and current challenges', Global Biogeochemical Cycles 14 , 777-794.
Shindo, H.: 1991, ?Elementary composition, humus composition, and decomposition in soil of charred grassland plants', Soil Science and Plant Nutrition 37 , 651-657.

MEETING ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES

-(in preparation)-

 

LAND-USE SYSTEMS AND BIO-CHAR USE

 

Bio-fuel production through low-temperature pyrolysis

 

"Combining bio-energy production with bio-char application to soil offers one of the most exciting perspectives of future land-based production technologies."

(read more about Bio-char and Bio-energy)

 

Reading:
Okimori, Y., Ogawa, M. and Takahashi, F.: 2003, ?Potential of CO2 emission reductions by carbonizing biomass waste from industrial tree plantation in south Sumatra , Indonesia ', Mitigation and Adaptation Straegies for Global Change 8 , 261-280.

http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_energy.htm

Bio-Energy and Bio-char

This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming.

While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from bio! mass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits.

The proposed technology is low-temperature pyrolysis that yields bio-oil, hydrogen or directly electricity as the energy carrier (including valuable co-products), with bio-oil being the more advanced and more wide-spread technology (Meier and Faix 1999; Bridgwater et al. 2002). The biomass feedstock may include a wide variety of biomass (Yaman 2004) such as wood chips or pellets, bark, crop residues such as nut shells or rice husks, and grass residues such as bagasse from the sugarcane industry. More importantly, however, planted energy crops can be used with the sole purpose of producing bio-fuels, such as short-rotation woody plants (e.g. willow), grasses (e.g. Miscanthus spp.), or herbaceous plants. The key for securing environmental benefits is the production of a bio-char by-product during pyrolysis which can be applied to soil.

Reading:
Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579.
Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427
Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74.
Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversion and Management 45 , 651-671.

News Feature article in NATURE:
Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:51:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNpVNL016580; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:51:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNpT36016563; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:51:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:51:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:47:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters In-reply-to: <001901c752ea$71024eb0$5e91163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <35gS8C.A.nCE.BU51FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > > >> >> Then why did you say "made to work by sucking and pumping the oil?" >> > > What I mean by that is, the lifter worked, as in produced thrust, when in > oil, by sucking in the oil and then "pumping" it through itself. Put another > way, it acts exactly the same in oil as in air, the only difference is the > dielectric medium is now a liquid instead of a gas. > > --Kyle > So the high voltage source is what drives the "pump" ? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:53:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNqrvc017407; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:52:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNqpF5017388; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:52:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:52:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c752ee$bab3fb40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <007901c752a0$ad6438e0$3800a8c0@zothan> <14pet2p12o688jrrvg4c42dc7bmev8mtjj@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:52:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1HNqoqo017371 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, thanks for biting :) You're right but the whales would probably make more fat since we would feed them, and we wouldn't have to draw all of it. And we would keep them in warm to temperate waters anyway, where solar exposure is high, for fast plankton growth rate. In any case if liposuction was impractical we could slaughter them humanely, as we do with cows and other animals we breed, with the added benefit of food production. Of course the whole process of iron fertilization > algae bloom > harvesting > oil could be done with factory ships instead of whales, or with a combination of both, but using wherever possible biological systems which we would just "catalyse" to do the right thing is likely to be cheaper per ton of removed CO2. Other objections welcome, surely there must be plenty, we can't possibly have solved simultaneously global warming and the world's energy problems, not to mention whale depopulation, just like that ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > Unlike some humans, whales have developed their blubber layer for a reason. > Being warm blooded they need it to survive low temperatures. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:55:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1HNtQvn019314; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:55:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1HNtPRZ019294; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:55:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:55:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D795E9.2080708@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:55:21 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> <45D6178D.8050008@pacbell.net> <178e01c75223$36afc390$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <178e01c75223$36afc390$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7ZjSsB.A.atE.tX51FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Mmm, growing the algae without harvesting them _could_ be sufficient > (pending calculations), but only for a one off operation: present > excess CO2 sequestered into the living algae biomass increase, > period. Could win the prize though. > > What surprises me most with this scheme is that one should need to > bring fertilizers into the oceans, which already contain all the > minerals you can dream of in amply sufficient concentrations. The > increased growth action of the dust, if confirmed, might not be one > of fertilization, maybe it increases photosynthesis by > reflecting/diffusing the sunlight rather. Haven't been following this thread closely ... but a number of years ago someone tried the experiment of seeding a small area of the ocean with iron; it caused an immediate algae bloom. Apparently it's in short supply. At that time it was proposed that bombing the oceans with iron would suck a lot of CO2 out of the air. The problems with such an approach, if actually tried on a large scale, are likely to be pretty horrible, though, or so I would guess. > > Anyway, back to the harvesting hypothesis, whether or not we can > stimulate growth one way or another. > > I have an idea for that, it's a bit... well here it is anyway. Highly > efficient phytoplankton harvesters + phytoplankton -to-oil converters > already exist actually, they are called whales :))) I guess you see > what I am coming to: instead of harvesting the algae ourselves we > would heavily repopulate the oceans with herds of whales (porn movies > -or audio clips rather- featuring actors of the right species like > they successfully use to repopulate pandas in China??), the whales > would harvest the algae and process them into whale oil, and then we > would harvest the whales and sequester the oil, plus use some of it > as fuel. > > Sounds awful and cruel I realize (reminds me of that whale briefly > brought into existence together with the petunia pot in The Hitch > Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was that in the film Fred?), but... if > our own survival is at stake, well... your thoughts welcome :) > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" > To: Sent: Friday, > February 16, 2007 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges > Branson on ABC > > >> Well, that sound-byte is a bit disingenuous, as Russ has "borrowed" >> the (unpatented) idea and experimental results of the late John >> Martin, who was less optimistic about the outcome ... JM was former >> director of: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Marine_Laboratories >> >> ... and one assumes (hopes) that George would give credit to Martin >> at some point in the process ... whether Martin's estate would win >> or share in the prize is unclear. I think some of the personnel >> from Martin's Moss Landing team are the same in any event. >> >> Martin's issued a caution regarding Global Warming consequences. >> Before getting too enamored with the implications of those >> successful iron fertilization experiments - which have been in the >> public record for 16 years - one must face several caveats. >> http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/oceangard/overview.php#n27 >> >> Though iron fertilization may be one of several effective method of >> lessening the impact of global warming by increasing algae growth, >> and CO2 uptake, the scientific evidence is incomplete and suggests >> there may be unintended consequences, especially at the scale >> necessary for global change. Of course if the Algae were harvested >> as an oil substitute - then that would probably help immensely, but >> just growing it without harvesting as R George is proposing - is >> not sufficient. >> >> Methane BTW is a far more worrisome threat than CO2, being twenty >> times more potent as a greenhouse gas and the Arctic (vast areas of >> Siberia Canada, Alaska) is now releasing much more of it than >> anyone ever thought possible - so perhaps that gas should be >> addressed first - big prize or not. >> >> >> >> Jed Rothwell wrote: >>> Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the >>> vid, from Tom Valone: >>> >>> www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv >>> >>> - Jed >>> >>> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 16:08:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I08deV025411; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:08:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I08blE025385; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:08:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:08:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005b01c752f0$ee522ce0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> <45D6178D.8050008@pacbell.net> <178e01c75223$36afc390$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D795E9.2080708@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 01:08:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1I08ZBA025366 Resent-Message-ID: <8S8KcC.A.lMG.Ek51FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC ... > Haven't been following this thread closely ... but a number of years ago > someone tried the experiment of seeding a small area of the ocean with > iron; it caused an immediate algae bloom. Apparently it's in short > supply. At that time it was proposed that bombing the oceans with iron > would suck a lot of CO2 out of the air. The problems with such an > approach, if actually tried on a large scale, are likely to be pretty > horrible, though, or so I would guess. ... Hence the idea of harvesting the excess algae on the fly (whales thread), we don't want our blue planet to change color. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 16:21:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I0L71t003340; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:21:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I0L54H003322; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:21:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:21:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mmrxP3ziUPzXebmqu6SEAwtN+LxyUoecsgYqooZ94zSk8UpbFGrVfMpTsO4OImOP; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007201802041801@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:20:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ab8e1b41c354664c6336917ddb9cd6ba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.171 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > Sounds awful and cruel I realize (reminds me of that whale briefly > > brought into existence together with the petunia pot in The Hitch > > Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was that in the film Fred?), but... if > > our own survival is at stake, well... your thoughts welcome :) > > Sounds to me like Michel (Dave's Gender I. D. Problem) is acting out Arthur Dent's worst nightmare. I posted Michel an algae-confinement-fine mesh-floated-seine idea the other day, but living near the Seine I guess he thinks I'm in-seine. :-) The seas should contain adequate nutrients that can diffuse into the seines that can be tens of meters wide and thousands of meters long. The iron powder can be retained in the seine, with barges that reel it in and through for harvesting and iron replenishment. A whale of a lot better than torturing a declining population of whales. Fred > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Mmm, growing the algae without harvesting them _could_ be sufficient > > (pending calculations), but only for a one off operation: present > > excess CO2 sequestered into the living algae biomass increase, > > period. Could win the prize though. > > > > What surprises me most with this scheme is that one should need to > > bring fertilizers into the oceans, which already contain all the > > minerals you can dream of in amply sufficient concentrations. The > > increased growth action of the dust, if confirmed, might not be one > > of fertilization, maybe it increases photosynthesis by > > reflecting/diffusing the sunlight rather. > > Haven't been following this thread closely ... but a number of years ago > someone tried the experiment of seeding a small area of the ocean with > iron; it caused an immediate algae bloom. Apparently it's in short > supply. At that time it was proposed that bombing the oceans with iron > would suck a lot of CO2 out of the air. The problems with such an > approach, if actually tried on a large scale, are likely to be pretty > horrible, though, or so I would guess. > > > > > > Anyway, back to the harvesting hypothesis, whether or not we can > > stimulate growth one way or another. > > > > I have an idea for that, it's a bit... well here it is anyway. Highly > > efficient phytoplankton harvesters + phytoplankton -to-oil converters > > already exist actually, they are called whales :))) I guess you see > > what I am coming to: instead of harvesting the algae ourselves we > > would heavily repopulate the oceans with herds of whales (porn movies > > -or audio clips rather- featuring actors of the right species like > > they successfully use to repopulate pandas in China??), the whales > > would harvest the algae and process them into whale oil, and then we > > would harvest the whales and sequester the oil, plus use some of it > > as fuel. > > > > Sounds awful and cruel I realize (reminds me of that whale briefly > > brought into existence together with the petunia pot in The Hitch > > Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was that in the film Fred?), but... if > > our own survival is at stake, well... your thoughts welcome :) > > > > Michel > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" > > To: Sent: Friday, > > February 16, 2007 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges > > Branson on ABC > > > > > >> Well, that sound-byte is a bit disingenuous, as Russ has "borrowed" > >> the (unpatented) idea and experimental results of the late John > >> Martin, who was less optimistic about the outcome ... JM was former > >> director of: > >> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Marine_Laboratories > >> > >> ... and one assumes (hopes) that George would give credit to Martin > >> at some point in the process ... whether Martin's estate would win > >> or share in the prize is unclear. I think some of the personnel > >> from Martin's Moss Landing team are the same in any event. > >> > >> Martin's issued a caution regarding Global Warming consequences. > >> Before getting too enamored with the implications of those > >> successful iron fertilization experiments - which have been in the > >> public record for 16 years - one must face several caveats. > >> http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/oceangard/overview.php#n27 > >> > >> Though iron fertilization may be one of several effective method of > >> lessening the impact of global warming by increasing algae growth, > >> and CO2 uptake, the scientific evidence is incomplete and suggests > >> there may be unintended consequences, especially at the scale > >> necessary for global change. Of course if the Algae were harvested > >> as an oil substitute - then that would probably help immensely, but > >> just growing it without harvesting as R George is proposing - is > >> not sufficient. > >> > >> Methane BTW is a far more worrisome threat than CO2, being twenty > >> times more potent as a greenhouse gas and the Arctic (vast areas of > >> Siberia Canada, Alaska) is now releasing much more of it than > >> anyone ever thought possible - so perhaps that gas should be > >> addressed first - big prize or not. > >> > >> > >> > >> Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>> Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the > >>> vid, from Tom Valone: > >>> > >>> www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv > >>> > >>> - Jed > >>> > >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 16:28:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I0S25G005846; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:28:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I0S0CQ005822; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:28:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:28:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009f01c752f3$a0d431e0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:27:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: More on marine algae etc. Of course, one does not need to pyrolyse the (oil expressed) algae into charcoal. Maybe fertilising the growth of coccolithophores would be even quicker for Branson. Chalk is formed in shallow waters by the gradual accumulation of the calcite mineral remains of phytoplanton micro-organisms (coccolithophores), over millions of years. Chalk is a very stable form of carbon sequestration... BTW I was surprised to see that the ocean Ph is already decreasing in line with the increased levels of CO2 and that this may get to a point where it interferes with the natural sequestration of atmospheric CO2 by coccolithophores thus acting as a rather serious positive feedback effect. To those who worry about unstoppable climate change happening whether we like it or not, I thought (correct me if I am wrong) that the normal expectation was that Earth should have been cooling down, heading towards the next glacial period? The fact that temperatures seem to be increasing holds out the promise that we can balance our emissions of CO2 etc to a lower optimum level that stabilises our climate and prevents the slide into an ice age. Or not - who knows? Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 16:52:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I0pmnU014423; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:51:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I0plNA014418; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:51:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:51:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00eb01c752f6$f6bca8a0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:51:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: Leave the whales alone Michel! I first got into environmentalism back in the early 70's starting off with "Save the Whales" so I'm damned if I'm going to let someone torture them for their blubber to solve global warming! : ) Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:02:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I12LTE018975; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:02:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I12JYo018950; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:02:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:02:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008101c752f8$6f2548f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007201802041801@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:02:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1I12HoY018931 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We are all in-seine aren't we, this is Vortex after all :) In any case I think we all agree on the function to be implemented: Local iron fertilization of the ocean surface > On the fly harvesting of the algae bloom > Conversion to oil and possibly charcoal The rest is mere implementation details, cost will decide, we should rule out no particular technical solution at this point (not even the whales Nick ;-) Can you do the cost analysis for the factory ships implementation you describe below Fred? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > Sounds to me like Michel (Dave's Gender I. D. Problem) is acting out > Arthur Dent's worst nightmare. > I posted Michel an algae-confinement-fine mesh-floated-seine idea the other > day, but > living near the Seine I guess he thinks I'm in-seine. :-) > The seas should contain adequate nutrients that can diffuse into the seines > that > can be tens of meters wide and thousands of meters long. The iron powder > can be retained in the seine, with barges that reel it in and through for > harvesting > and iron replenishment. > A whale of a lot better than torturing a declining population of whales. > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:08:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I18QIO021600; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:08:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I18OvZ021581; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:08:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:08:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009101c752f9$4862d740$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <00eb01c752f6$f6bca8a0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:08:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1I18M5v021540 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: Note this might be a better way to save the whales than leaving them alone :) And there may be painless ways to harvest the blubber. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:51 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > Leave the whales alone Michel! I first got into environmentalism back in the > early 70's starting off with "Save the Whales" so I'm damned if I'm going > to let someone > torture them for their blubber to solve global warming! : ) > > Nick Palmer > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:10:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I19t3X022554; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:09:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I19rSP022532; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:09:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:09:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010001c752f9$7da38030$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <003001c7515f$30d49690$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <009f01c752f3$a0d431e0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 01:09:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Status: O X-Status: A few days ago I wrote <> without Googling it. Well they do. http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e34/34b.htm or more simply http://www.tilthproducers.org/tfia/nitrogen.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:16:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I1GAHT026262; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:16:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I1G8RZ026244; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:16:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:16:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FlCC35B4pWU12FCo3xxGeZ42WZI56PD/YCPoBP3sw/zRjJ99Qo56C7hRm8Hanu0VDqZWf+CjZwqmphU0fcnW+r/Zy4bqpskPkryIJ/vJND2eOGpskuiALzwe91XuikmI2rqbG6ewDpFLlXWw+fychyYBRTLtwd1f4NuyzXVKxCY= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:16:06 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) In-Reply-To: <009101c752f9$4862d740$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14277_10174773.1171761366896" References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <00eb01c752f6$f6bca8a0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <009101c752f9$4862d740$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_14277_10174773.1171761366896 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Note this might be a better way to save the whales than leaving them alone > :) And there may be painless ways to harvest the blubber. WTF? you mean you are not joking? ------=_Part_14277_10174773.1171761366896 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/18/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Note this might be a better way to save the whales than leaving them alone :) And there may be painless ways to harvest the blubber.

WTF? you mean you are not joking?
 

------=_Part_14277_10174773.1171761366896-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:16:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I1GHx8026316; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:16:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I1GGDp026294; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:16:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:16:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PyabQzwfbkrxUWw1/N/GUHMoSOW/atV/W0Onqzot92MiENoHFr5Zb3P0exBZoBEq; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007201811552367@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:15:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94045f43c74f6a85d0f20afe1f0471b40bc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.80 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You Can Have It Both Ways, Nick. The algae "husk" contains sugars-starch-cellulose (carbohydrates CxHyOz)n the same as land plants which at about 200 to 350 C exothermally decompose to strong Carbon-Carbon Bonds giving off Carbon Monoxide, H2O, and some H2 along with CO2, ask any fireman that fights the exothermal reaction of plaster-covered wood in buildings. You can do the same thing with sugar or flour in your oven a 350 F and above. The point is algae dried to 15% moisture or so can be pyrolized to BIO-CHAR and Oil at these low temperatures with the heat mostly provided by their exotherm. Otherwise known as SAE; Spontaneous Algae Exotherm. 10W-40? :-) Fred Nick Palmer wrote: > > > More on marine algae etc. Of course, one does not need to pyrolyse the (oil > expressed) algae into charcoal. Maybe fertilising the growth of > coccolithophores would be even quicker for Branson. Chalk is formed in > shallow waters by the gradual accumulation of the calcite mineral remains of > phytoplanton micro-organisms (coccolithophores), over millions of years. > Chalk is a very stable form of carbon sequestration... BTW I was surprised > to see that the ocean Ph is already decreasing in line with the increased > levels of CO2 and that this may get to a point where it interferes with the > natural sequestration of atmospheric CO2 by coccolithophores thus acting as > a rather serious positive feedback effect. > To those who worry about unstoppable climate change happening whether we > like it or not, I thought (correct me if I am wrong) that the normal > expectation was that Earth should have been cooling down, heading towards > the next glacial period? The fact that temperatures seem to be increasing > holds out the promise that we can balance our emissions of CO2 etc to a > lower optimum level that stabilises our climate and prevents the slide into > an ice age. Or not - who knows? > > > Nick Palmer > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:19:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I1J1UH028759; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:19:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I1IwR0028731; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:18:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:18:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009901c752fa$c314a440$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007201802041801@earthlink.net> <008101c752f8$6f2548f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:18:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1I1IvBJ028714 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I forgot to mention, the process should be repeated on the move in open sea rather than e.g. in a bay, so that each iteration occurs at a place where dissolved CO2 and nutrients have not been recently depleted by the previous runs (it takes time for those resources to be restored) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:02 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > We are all in-seine aren't we, this is Vortex after all :) > > In any case I think we all agree on the function to be implemented: > > Local iron fertilization of the ocean surface > On the fly harvesting of the algae bloom > Conversion to oil and possibly charcoal > > The rest is mere implementation details, cost will decide, we should rule out no particular technical solution at this point (not even the whales Nick ;-) > > Can you do the cost analysis for the factory ships implementation you describe below Fred? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > >> Sounds to me like Michel (Dave's Gender I. D. Problem) is acting out >> Arthur Dent's worst nightmare. >> I posted Michel an algae-confinement-fine mesh-floated-seine idea the other >> day, but >> living near the Seine I guess he thinks I'm in-seine. :-) >> The seas should contain adequate nutrients that can diffuse into the seines >> that >> can be tens of meters wide and thousands of meters long. The iron powder >> can be retained in the seine, with barges that reel it in and through for >> harvesting >> and iron replenishment. >> A whale of a lot better than torturing a declining population of whales. >> >> Fred > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:41:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I1er6U005109; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:40:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I1ep9S005090; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:40:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:40:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00aa01c752fd$d0593820$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> <00eb01c752f6$f6bca8a0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <009101c752f9$4862d740$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:40:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1I1emJB005073 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > On 2/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> Note this might be a better way to save the whales than leaving them alone >> :) And there may be painless ways to harvest the blubber. > > > WTF? you mean you are not joking? WTF, Whale-To-Fuel I guess ;-) Can't you think of other mammals bred for your convenience? Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:44:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I1iaeX007118; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:44:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I1iZPE007098; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:44:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:44:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=TWubtGU5qdcZYxhjygMz7hLPRALC8jkq9mtM75k5fTMx78fEUrdRqEiv1xg771znTeFB+bHMUoM5jDSnI5vnUcvlhiDG9Aw9mpImfHXRjbndn8Yg+X+f6CUN187/JB1ipDxsY3Ll7Y67y+WqDD1MVrNGbCqYUwZKR9v7dd2O2ac=; X-YMail-OSG: nP8ibGgVM1khzf7L3.xScshFueTwwx89WrHrzCWJHLq1Bh8b4.X0JGuawYPS5PRbUiTF2nXSly23UcL73G03flvbUIC_F03v7z9Yis6ef2TN00L6BJ_cSQ-- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:44:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor Status: RO X-Status: Teaser... In all my years of observing the "free-energy" scene -- post 1989 following the P&F announcement (which ~18 year old press release and the subsequent recrimination-extravaganza -- pretty much 'started it all' in the minds of the many 'never-say-never' physics-scofflaws) this one comes in at second place -- and that is including the recent Steorn quasi announcement. There is little else which compares to the OU-stir which has been created by a few videos last Thursday. Some of this furor is not doubt due to the much higher impact of video on higher bandwidth PCs an the axiom that "seeing-is-believing" ... due to the easy and facile resources of YouTube and the widespread access to el-cheapo vid-recording in everything from digital cameras to cell phones. That is a trend which is sure to accelerate, and the macro-trend which is being witness here is itself worthy of much more commentary. But for now, back to Hartmann, "Mike" and the Bedini-Cole window motor. And video showing almost certain OU. .... this time, I'm not even going to include the customary references to the sites, as the purveyors of this information are temporarily overloaded with all the traffic they can handle. Several Vo's are already frantically ordering parts and/or scratching their heads. Is this "yet another" false alarm.... ?? Time will tell. But unlike the Steorn shenanigans and carefully inflicted drama, this time we will likely have a pretty good answer by next week. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 17:56:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I1u1jF012045; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:56:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I1txdN012023; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:55:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:55:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c752ff$ed2547d0$cd037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:55:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C752CD.A1F093A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Prophet of Garbage - Popular Science Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C752CD.A1F093A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy Vorts, A link one of my Aggie undergrads sent me. http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/873aae7bf86c0110vgnvcm1000004eecbccd= rcrd.html Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C752CD.A1F093A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy Vorts,
A link one of my Aggie undergrads = sent=20 me.
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/873aae7bf86c0110v= gnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C752CD.A1F093A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 18:15:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I2FZo7025385; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:15:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I2FYrv025363; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:15:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:15:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YiHg2XnJPifNkhF1Hqv2VWf7k8itOrjhNL1AOseG9tHjRQ070kIkOzVUWcKoFD5u+lFWefYAe1pc+LsBp1grehUJI3Go1Xerez3Qr8X/q94D8yFS2L4DgiJdCDKu/VY8qmDkhwC3f36zzTGRbfIWZJC1vdgHlBzG9fYTq8/bU3Q= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:15:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor In-Reply-To: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/17/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Time will tell. But unlike the Steorn shenanigans and > carefully inflicted drama, this time we will likely > have a pretty good answer by next week. It looks like a Bendini variant. Reading the thread, the experimenter admits that the motor stops eventually when he removes the power. That 47,000 uF cap will keep it going for quite a while. He said he used a trifilar winding; but, that bifilar will work as well. Sheesh, then why bother? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 18:20:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I2KOJg030490; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:20:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I2KMP7030465; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:20:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:20:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oWYTe3vUwzFj69y+MmijhUPmbeJzvukxWwFnPNNDSM8hb/vifPK/bKsUFHJFOgGsiF8e+q7Q8lw7YKV12BxxGkNfQ7dA1umpSzKvMFDiNnrIh92q50VN//0hjZZ06WP9BUusSHT7XY05f8KylEtihmstDTxZwtJe3YxNhygy1t4= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:20:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Prophet of Garbage - Popular Science In-Reply-To: <000501c752ff$ed2547d0$cd037841@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000501c752ff$ed2547d0$cd037841@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: <4LsrRC.A.7bH.mf71FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/17/07, RC Macaulay wrote: > > Howdy Vorts, > A link one of my Aggie undergrads sent me. > http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/873aae7bf86c0110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html The plasma convertor is managed by DAVID LYNCH! I will never forget the first movie of his that I saw: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 18:44:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I2hles011686; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:43:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I2hkYm011669; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:43:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:43:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=F6MlGok/AARIYvlWWFxrU9re+MEZ28DdGqiYTWAUzFYs86vDGE9ltkzRqAzMqYIth/AUfGKwPTIDirPnDH9YKusB7C+qrKh5lYumb6VGpG1hTO8rpQsWK4gx2hxJzh0PzJedq58DwuevGvX61hnTkiFd8/3u0iDNp30j8azaudk= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:43:44 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) In-Reply-To: <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14637_20226151.1171766624968" References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216094406.036681f8@mindspring.com> <16da01c751e4$50d3a730$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216112356.036014b8@mindspring.com> <16f001c751ec$39ec2ee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216121249.0364e5f8@mindspring.com> <170e01c751f1$bdeb6f80$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070216161132.03663708@mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070216231906.0314b5d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <006701c7529b$11118d80$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_14637_20226151.1171766624968 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > > How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ? Somehow, even crazier. And no, not crazy like a fox. ------=_Part_14637_20226151.1171766624968 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/18/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ?

Somehow, even crazier.

And no, not crazy like a fox.

------=_Part_14637_20226151.1171766624968-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 18:52:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I2qei1019268; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:52:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I2qdWi019253; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:52:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:52:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:49:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) In-reply-to: <009101c752f9$4862d740$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Note this might be a better way to save the whales than leaving them alone :) > And there may be painless ways to harvest the blubber. > > Michel By liposuction?? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 19:04:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I34SqN029469; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:04:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I34RII029443; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:04:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:04:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kDAzZjU8neUcB+lbIWPrznOL7avTV015EAkmxcIcPqQykhGGpl97Avwn5IyjIygGuAB5f/o+A+ZCTkHxVFD7K/jLWwyWdA8dBcdMiyx0uR1HLqE+didfjYUKWPbesNkPNranruQ4SG3eGmSpHg8yE7lT7f1HhZuORZdmU/I8L68= Message-ID: <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:04:00 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/17/07, Jones Beene wrote: > >> Time will tell. But unlike the Steorn shenanigans and >> carefully inflicted drama, this time we will likely >> have a pretty good answer by next week. > > It looks like a Bendini variant. Reading the thread, the experimenter > admits that the motor stops eventually when he removes the power. Mike's device runs on its ***OWN*** power. Mike has stated many times the motor runs until he deliberately stops the motor, which is usually several hours. One time Mike left the motor running over night to awaken to a broken motor. > That 47,000 uF cap will keep it going for quite a while. If you would look at the video you would see Mike discharges the cap, gives a slight twist on the motor to get it going. You can clearly see the motor continues to accelerate significantly faster after Mike lets go. This is clearly the "Smoking Gun" ***UNLESS*** Mike is being deceitful. Only time will tell which is the case. Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 19:37:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I3bLtF013343; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:37:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I3bKUA013332; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:37:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uFRvPA2Um2Ot/4LILy1QNcafHuEws7xJ8oLeRj6UjG+Mi587etHP/+Co0221KYVv3F0iMPB8aXS0xCegxN+EaVXk96pD+JGgNx0zUqvh/1ussG1/IDnPb6oJBzxyUuox8rgQiIjR9u8VPxLFGZwSlAD0RWTOp3qe32189qx6LbQ= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:37:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor In-Reply-To: <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/17/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > This is clearly the "Smoking Gun" ***UNLESS*** Mike is being deceitful. Only > time will tell which is the case. I hope you are right. Here is the post to which I referred: "Here are some help tips from Mike( User HMM) Yes 6 magnets on rotor n-s-n-s-n-s. The key to (over)unity is to time switch 1 correctly this can be done a number of ways. I will help you with all of this but first you must get your motor to run. Follow the first circuit I posted remember to wind the stator with two or more wires bifiler will work fine I use trifiler. Good Luck The value of the cap is not critical I use 47000uf computer cap although any large electrolytic cap should do. the stator is one coil bifiler wound then split evenly where the shaft goes through. follow the first cct and yes trigger is smaller wire. The hall effect transistor is to activate sw1 I use a solid state relay for sw1. wind as much turns as possible try to get above 46 ohm. the main winding on my motor is 46 ohms so 40-60 ohms sorry about that cheers Mike in the video the motor was powered by capicitance only. no battery. Trifiler wound If you add a load the motor will slowly come to a stop. cheers Mike Yes feedback, and play with sw1 timing **I must tell you I use the third winding on my stator coil as a generator winding to charge the cap up from 0v, then when the transistors begin to pulse the back emf through sw1 brings the voltage on the cap even higher till it levels and the motor is then runing at unity (this is just what I think is hapening and I could be missing somthing here) OK Mike @Marco I don't Know how long the motor can run for, but I always stop it after a few hours or so. I am scared to leave it running unattended (a fire or explosion would not be good)the running voltage is higher when I give it a big spin by hand. so far every time I ran it the voltage has always leveled off some where bellow 12v or so my cap is good up to 25v " From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 20:36:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I4aDIr026864; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:36:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I4aBsm026854; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:36:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:36:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D7D7B6.4040905@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:36:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > >> Harry: >>> The raison d'être of GR is to explain gravity. > > Stephen: >> That's right. But you don't need it to resolve the twins problem, which >> takes place in flat space. > > > I am confused. > In your first response to me you started off by saying the opposite: > > >> Harry: >>> That works in SR, but the solution is inconsistent with GR. >> Stephen: >> Wrong. In fact the full solution can only be had using techniques >> commonly considered to be part of GR. Err hmmph. Well. What I meant by that is this.... Gravity, and the attendant curved space, is unnecessary to the solution to the twins problem. However, if you want to solve the problem from the point of view of the traveling twin, without neglecting acceleration (i.e., without assuming velocity changes happen "instantly"), then you need to use techniques which are commonly treated as part of general relativity, rather than special relativity. If one is willing to do the actual calculations using the frame of reference of the stationary twin, however, then there's no need to integrate over a curved path with a non-Minkowski metric, and we can solve it, acceleration included, using techniques from SR. See, for example: http://www.physicsinsights.org/accelerating_twins.html In case that was all insufficiently murky, let me add to the confusion by explaining that the boundary between GR and SR has been a bit of a moving target over the years. Initially SR dealt only with inertial frames (no acceleration), and in fact the basic postulates of SR don't really say what happens during acceleration. However, if we add the _assumption_ that clocks are not affected by acceleration, then at the expense of some additional complexity in the math we can solve problems such as this one entirely within the "extended" version of SR, in either frame of reference. From that point of view, anything _except_ gravity is in the bailiwick of SR. Finally, I should mention that there is a somewhat surprising error on my accelerating twins page, linked to above. (I don't mean it's surprising that there's an error; rather, the particular error is surprising!) At the bottom of the page I mentioned that I hadn't yet done the porthole view from the ship but asserted that it "contains no new surprises". That's utterly wrong -- the porthole view from the ship is extremely surprising, as I found when I started to work it out. Someday I may get around to putting together an "integrated" page on all this, showing how the pieces fit together; it's not as straightforward as it appears at first glance. Here's a partial writeup: http://www.physicsinsights.org/porthole_view_1.html As someone said when I mentioned the effects discussed on that page, "Oh, that's just aberration!". Well, yeah, it is aberration -- but I wouldn't have said "just" aberration; I think it's highly weird... > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 23:44:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I7iM6o029387; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:44:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I7iKr5029374; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:44:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:44:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=KN5N62AIM/N/+bWbIY/HYV5vH5sp3nK2X7IYw3wm/dByfczExjX2LsD6OKYVGVqB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007201874348529@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:43:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94087f3b3bf5e4dffd0e27a3adf25baba9d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.71 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_projects.htm " Currently (January 2007) we conduct experiments to evaluate the effects of bio-char on nutrient adsorption, nutrient leaching, water percolation, soil water availability and carbon cycling as well as the stability and mobility of bio-char itself with research in our Ithaca, New York lab, in Colombia, Brazil, Zambia and Kenya." " Greenhouse Experiments Manaus, Brazil, 2000-2001: Greenhouse experiments were conducted with rice and cowpea using closed and open systems (allowing the determination of leaching) at the Embrapa Amazonia Ocidental, Manaus, Brazil. (Collaborator: Jose Pereira da Silva Jr.) Abstract. The study tested whether bio-char additions were able to improve crop growth and nutrition as well as reduce nutrient leaching. In the first experiment, cowpea (Vigna unguiculata (L.) Walp.) was planted in pots, while in the second experiment lysimeters were used to quantify water and nutrient leaching from soil cropped to rice (Oryza sativa L.). Bio-char additions significantly increased plant growth and nutrition. While foliar N concentrations decreased, uptake of P, K, Ca, Zn, and Cu by the plants increased with higher bio-char additions. Leaching of applied fertilizer N was significantly reduced by bio-char, and Ca and Mg leaching was delayed." http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_energy.htm This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming. While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from biomass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 2/17/2007 4:45:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Lehmann (Cornell University) also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2. Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant root system aids plant growth. Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that. Fred Reading: Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579. Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427 Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74. Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversion and Management 45 , 651-671. News Feature article in NATURE: Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
" Currently (January 2007) we conduct experiments to evaluate the effects of bio-char on nutrient adsorption, nutrient leaching, water percolation, soil water availability and carbon cycling as well as the stability and mobility of bio-char itself with research in our Ithaca, New York lab, in Colombia, Brazil, Zambia and Kenya."
 

" Greenhouse Experiments Manaus, Brazil, 2000-2001:
Greenhouse experiments were conducted with rice and cowpea using closed and open systems (allowing the determination of leaching) at the Embrapa Amazonia Ocidental, Manaus, Brazil. (Collaborator: Jose Pereira da Silva Jr.)

Abstract. The study tested whether bio-char additions were able to improve crop growth and nutrition as well as reduce nutrient leaching. In the first experiment, cowpea (Vigna unguiculata (L.) Walp.) was planted in pots, while in the second experiment lysimeters were used to quantify water and nutrient leaching from soil cropped to rice (Oryza sativa L.). Bio-char additions significantly increased plant growth and nutrition. While foliar N concentrations decreased, uptake of P, K, Ca, Zn, and Cu by the plants increased with higher bio-char additions. Leaching of applied fertilizer N was significantly reduced by bio-char, and Ca and Mg leaching was delayed."

 
 

This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming.

While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from biomass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/17/2007 4:45:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

Lehmann (Cornell University) also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2.
 
Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields
than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant
root system aids plant growth.
 
Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of
square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that.
 
Fred
 
Reading:
Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579.
Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427
Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74.
Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversion and Management 45 , 651-671.

News Feature article in NATURE:
Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 00:55:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1I8tJCn022264; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:55:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1I8tGc1022242; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:55:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:55:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fCuRLsCV02gSatVOqAmijMF20a8AShzxkYy01jsfzeY5sLrnGgh5QOpE21MaekQT; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200720188551404@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 01:55:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bcb2feee7a02368696c149690624cd1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.127 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I think Lehmann is way ahead of the pack in Branson's Climate Prize Race. According to the New York Times, $100 Million was spent on the race for the $10 Million X Prize". The movie,"Rat Race" with a story along similar lines was hilarious. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 2/18/2007 12:44:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_projects.htm " Currently (January 2007) we conduct experiments to evaluate the effects of bio-char on nutrient adsorption, nutrient leaching, water percolation, soil water availability and carbon cycling as well as the stability and mobility of bio-char itself with research in our Ithaca, New York lab, in Colombia, Brazil, Zambia and Kenya." " Greenhouse Experiments Manaus, Brazil, 2000-2001: Greenhouse experiments were conducted with rice and cowpea using closed and open systems (allowing the determination of leaching) at the Embrapa Amazonia Ocidental, Manaus, Brazil. (Collaborator: Jose Pereira da Silva Jr.) Abstract. The study tested whether bio-char additions were able to improve crop growth and nutrition as well as reduce nutrient leaching. In the first experiment, cowpea (Vigna unguiculata (L.) Walp.) was planted in pots, while in the second experiment lysimeters were used to quantify water and nutrient leaching from soil cropped to rice (Oryza sativa L.). Bio-char additions significantly increased plant growth and nutrition. While foliar N concentrations decreased, uptake of P, K, Ca, Zn, and Cu by the plants increased with higher bio-char additions. Leaching of applied fertilizer N was significantly reduced by bio-char, and Ca and Mg leaching was delayed." http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_energy.htm This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming. While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from bio! mass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 2/17/2007 4:45:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Lehmann (Cornell University) also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2. Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant root system aids plant growth. Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that. Fred Reading: Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579. Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427 Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74. Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversi! on and Management 45 , 651-671. News Feature article in NATURE: Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I think Lehmann is way ahead of the pack in Branson's Climate Prize Race.
 
According to the New York Times, $100 Million was spent on the
race for the $10 Million X Prize".
 
The movie,"Rat Race" with a story along similar lines was hilarious.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/18/2007 12:44:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

 
" Currently (January 2007) we conduct experiments to evaluate the effects of bio-char on nutrient adsorption, nutrient leaching, water percolation, soil water availability and carbon cycling as well as the stability and mobility of bio-char itself with research in our Ithaca, New York lab, in Colombia, Brazil, Zambia and Kenya."
 

" Greenhouse Experiments Manaus, Brazil, 2000-2001:
Greenhouse experiments were conducted with rice and cowpea using closed and open systems (allowing the determination of leaching) at the Embrapa Amazonia Ocidental, Manaus, Brazil. (Collaborator: Jose Pereira da Silva Jr.)

Abstract. The study tested whether bio-char additions were able to improve crop growth and nutrition as well as reduce nutrient leaching. In the first experiment, cowpea (Vigna unguiculata (L.) Walp.) was planted in pots, while in the second experiment lysimeters were used to quantify water and nutrient leaching from soil cropped to rice (Oryza sativa L.). Bio-char additions significantly increased plant growth and nutrition. While foliar N concentrations decreased, uptake of P, K, Ca, Zn, and Cu by the plants increased with higher bio-char additions. Leaching of applied fertilizer N was significantly reduced by bio-char, and Ca and Mg leaching was delayed."

 
 

This research explores the opportunities and constraints to combining a bio-char soil management with energy production using novel low-temperature pyrolysis. Three real-world issues justify this approach: (1) The ever increasing pressure on rural land users to generate sufficient income from their land with decreasing market prices for food; (2) the necessity to provide sustainable production systems that minimize on- and off-site pollution and soil degradation; and (3) the demand for solutions to global warming.

While food prices do not increase sufficiently enough to ensure healthy farm economies without subsidies in many industrialized countries, energy prices increase at unprecedented rates. Within the past two years, gas and diesel prices increased by 150% (DOE, 2005). In contrast, the proportion of a household income spent for food decreased from 21% in 1950 to 10% in 2000 (ERS, 2005). One strategy to resolve this dilemma for farmers is to engage in energy production over the long term in addition to food production in order to diversify income. Several different strategies for land-based bio-energy production exist that build on modern biomass technology (in contrast to traditional biomass, UNDP 2004). The underlying principle is usually the sustainable land-based production of an energy crop or the use of waste biomass (also animal manures!) and the conversion into bio-fuels by various mechanisms. Possible avenues for producing bio-fuels from bio! mass are ethanol production through microbial fermentation, extraction of oils from crops, pyrolysis and gasification of biomass (Caputo et al., 2005). Farmers have begun to understand the economic opportunities associated with bio-energy. This proposal introduces an emergent strategy of combining energy production using modern biomass with land application of bio-char which is a residue from the energy production that has multiple environmental benefits.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/17/2007 4:45:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

Lehmann (Cornell University) also claims Bio-Char or Agri-Char in the soil also sequesters atmospheric CO2.
 
Over the years I have noticed that flood irrigation of farmland produces higher crop yields
than non-aerated well water, implying that soil CO2 made available to the plant
root system aids plant growth.
 
Given the large surface area of a good carbon char (more than hundreds of
square meters per gram along with soil moisture retention, I can buy that.
 
Fred
 
Reading:
Day, D., Evans, R.J., Lee, J.W. and Reicosky, D.: 2005, ‘Economical CO2 , SOx , and NOx capture from fossil-fuel utilization with combined renewable hydrogen production and large-scale carbon sequestration', Energy 30 , 2558-2579.
Lehmann, J., Gaunt, J. and Rondon, M.: 2006, 'Bio-char sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems – a review', Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427
Li, X., Hagaman, E., Tsouris, C. and Lee, J.W.: 2003, ‘Removal of carbon dioxide from flue gas by ammonia carbonization in the gas phase', Energy & Fuels 17 , 69-74.
Yaman, S.: 2004, ‘Pyrolysis of biomass to produce fuels and chemical feedstocks', Energy Conversi! on and Management 45 , 651-671.

News Feature article in NATURE:
Marris E 2006 Black is the new green. Nature 442: 624-626.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 02:45:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IAjQFG014573; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:45:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IAjJaU014543; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:45:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:45:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAM+710XLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANjlsBASqSbwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,186,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="59118909:sNHT19897542" Message-ID: <45D82E3E.40403@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:45:18 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070216143826.036bde50@mindspring.com> <45D6178D.8050008@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45D6178D.8050008@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually I have material on ocean fertilization, including iron, going back to 1978 or so. Co-evolution quarterly had a design for a green ship that delivered both fertilizer and a seed stock of algy and fish fingerling. This combination gives you much more ecological control. I'll see if I can find it; though my kid brother has just moved in and the storage situation here has become chaotic. Jones Beene wrote: > Well, that sound-byte is a bit disingenuous, as Russ has "borrowed" > the (unpatented) idea and experimental results of the late John > Martin, who was less optimistic about the outcome ... JM was former > director of: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Marine_Laboratories > > ... and one assumes (hopes) that George would give credit to Martin at > some point in the process ... whether Martin's estate would win or > share in the prize is unclear. I think some of the personnel from > Martin's Moss Landing team are the same in any event. > > Martin's issued a caution regarding Global Warming consequences. > Before getting too enamored with the implications of those successful > iron fertilization experiments - which have been in the public record > for 16 years - one must face several caveats. > http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/oceangard/overview.php#n27 > > Though iron fertilization may be one of several effective method of > lessening the impact of global warming by increasing algae growth, and > CO2 uptake, the scientific evidence is incomplete and suggests there > may be unintended consequences, especially at the scale necessary for > global change. Of course if the Algae were harvested as an oil > substitute - then that would probably help immensely, but just growing > it without harvesting as R George is proposing - is not sufficient. > > Methane BTW is a far more worrisome threat than CO2, being twenty > times more potent as a greenhouse gas and the Arctic (vast areas of > Siberia Canada, Alaska) is now releasing much more of it than anyone > ever thought possible - so perhaps that gas should be addressed first > - big prize or not. > > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the vid, >> from Tom Valone: >> >> www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv >> >> - Jed >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 02:55:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IAtk97024970; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:55:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IAtjFm024957; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:55:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:55:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CACm/10XLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANhxGHSgEBKpJwAQEB X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,186,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="1060174235:sNHT14750496" Message-ID: <45D830B1.4030107@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:55:45 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC References: <00a501c75225$fa2736d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <00a501c75225$fa2736d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >I don't see what need there is to take the carbon out of the air. We spent >150 years of hard work getting all that sequestered carbon back into the >biosphere. > >Don't these people realize the climate of the Earth was most stable during >the time of the dinosaurs? Our planet went for hundreds of millions of >years with no ice ages and there was 1000 times more biomatter in the >biosystem than there is today with 1000s more species. > >If people want to take the carbon back out, all they need to do is send >another comet into Earth's atmosphere. If I had my way, we would double >carbon production in hopes of putting a permanent end to the present Ice >Age. > >Dave > > > This may be true but our ecosystems are under pressure and depleted in terms of species both producer and consumers. A depleted system mich respond with massive infestation of marine "weeds" with impacts on both the natural ecosystem and the fishing industry. There are good arguments that some of the dating is wrong for most deposits and fossils. The stability in that case would only be an illisionary product of massivily distorted dating. It is always safer to assume a system is unstable and act accordingly that to assume it's stable and die having discovered your error. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 03:56:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IBujLL027608; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:56:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IBuhxc027586; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:56:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:56:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAEDN10XLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANhxGHSgEBKpJpAQEB X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,186,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="153565702:sNHT38366370" Message-ID: <45D83EFA.9070906@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:56:42 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Better way to sequester CO2- re branson Status: O X-Status: I'm looking at a better way to win the Branson-Gore prize and make a profit into the bargain. If it works we'll be richer than both. Turn the coal and lots of alga into *carbon fibre*: billions of tons of it. The process should be profitable if we can crack the chemistry. 1. _Anaerobic coking_ strips the coal and or bulk fertilized alga or Sargasso weed into near pure carbon and a mix of methane and H2. 2. Burn the H2 to provide power. 3. React the methane with catalysts to make ethylene and plastics. Mainly bonding agents. 4. Process the coke into carbon fibre. That’s the bit that should be tricky. 5. Bond the fibre into structural systems with the plastics. 6. Sequester the carbon* in plain sight* as roads, bridges, cars and buildings. If we can turn coal onto a material feed stock while liberating its hydrogen to be used as a fuel we end the arguments and get rich at the same time. If carbon composites were made as cheap as glass or concrete it would sell for much more than coal. These materials are the key to faster lighter cars and cheap air and space travel. We could make bridges with amazing spans and building that look feather light. The coal industry would survive and get richer. And the CO2 question would be moot. I'm looking for contacts with the necessary qualifications and skills to have a look at this option. I also need someone with access to coal, a lab and funding. I'm also emailing politicians and coal industry people. The whole greenhouse debate here in Australia is about Coal. Our prime minister Mr Howard has been blunt and honest. He does not want to kill off Australia coal industry with Kyoto, carbon taxes or Green socialistic economic suicide. {my words not his}. Several whole regions in Australia and the nations balance of payments are dependant on Coal. Thousands of jobs and 18 towns would go if we killed the industry. Remember when Maggie Thatcher did that in Britton there was war in the streets and people died. More governments have fallen to coal miners riots and rebellions than to oil related political action. Extracting the carbon as a building material seems obvious to me. The key is to separate the carbon from the hydrogen before combusting the either. Most of the energy in coal is in the hydrogen bonds not the carbon to carbon bonds. Several of the plastics steps are exothermal and can be used to generate heat and if your creative electricity. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 04:12:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ICBuIw002091; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:11:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ICBtWj002073; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:11:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:11:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAOfQ10XLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANhxGHSgEBKpJ2AQEB X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,186,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="59885504:sNHT8816808" Message-ID: <45D84287.80504@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:11:51 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn Photos References: <45D5C08A.6060307@iinet.net.au> <45D5D4C3.2030005@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45D5D4C3.2030005@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and >> all the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. >> Are we sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is >> no self motion visible in those pictures? > > > Is that really a surprise? No but they did say the opposite. Note This does not make me more sceptical in fact I'm more optimistic now. > > I've looked at the information on the Steorn website and have never > seen anything that actually /said/ they have anything which > self-runs. I know opinions here differed, and there are some > ambiguous statements which one could interpret that way, but I saw > nothing clear and explicit to that effect. AFAICT, all they have is > something which, when driven externally, apparently produces more > power on the shaft out than is applied on the shaft in. Of course, > with such a device the torque varies significantly as the shaft > rotates, so measuring the power in and power out can be a tad dicey. > If that were true then its a simple matter to close the loop and add a linkage that drives itsself. I can see how that would work, I just can't see the linkage. If I were them I would not show that part either. Then again there's no shot of the thing from the back or sides; that may be very important. PS If Steorn has cracked it; half of the Vortex crew are out of a job and most of us will be sending them our CV's. or did I already do that ? > >> The little arm on the right is a classic escapement that allows the >> magnet to push the disc its mounted on a few degrees. A spring then >> returns it to the start position. in effect we have a retarded cycle >> with two springs rocking a disc back and forth in the plane of the >> disc, in this case one of the springs is a magnet. All that's >> nothing new?! If its legitimate then these images are intentionally >> lacking a key component. The bit that moves the escapement up and >> down with no external input of energy: i.e. fingers or tweezers. >> 1600th century clockwork. >> If it is that simple the worlds scientific community will have a >> complete and total fit. With wood, brass and twine Leanado Davinchi >> could have built the thing. >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 05:39:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IDd7BN028130; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:39:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IDd4bu028071; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:39:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:39:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:38:40 -0600 Message-ID: <007501c75362$1fe0b8f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45D830B1.4030107@iinet.net.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdTS8NxPq3wqOWeSLOQWvOr1t4DJQAFBbMQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Wesley, > There are good arguments that some of the dating is wrong for most > deposits and fossils. I don't dispute the dating process may be flawed, but what does that have to do with the quantity and variety of fauna and flora? Either the fossils exist or they don't. And it is equally obvious that regardless of the actual dates, a rich biosystem did not occur at the same time as an Ice Age. > The stability in that case would only be an > illisionary product of massivily distorted dating. Could you provide a more detailed explanation of your reasoning? How do dating errors (not Michel's type of dating errors) cause the illusion of massive amounts of biomatter and diverse species? > It is always safer > to assume a system is unstable and act accordingly that to assume it's > stable and die having discovered your error. More flawed reasoning. Are you telling me that if we don't understand how something works, we are charged with fixing it until we do understand? That is how problems arise, not how they are solved. This is exactly what the GW debate comes down to. There are people who distort their interpretation of the data to prove something is broken, and then seek to fix it. It is the process of fixing things that don't need fixing that actually breaks them. Nature knows what it is doing. The planet Earth does not need the arrogance of our feeble intelligence to fix the climate cycle. Even if we do succeed in altering the climate, such as seeding the oceans with iron, what happens when iron prices go through the roof and the seeding program is cancelled? The resulting huge whale population then starves to death for lack of food. Either that or the Japanese build up a huge market for whale products and drives them into extinction. There were people who played with pure sodium, and when it spontaneously caught fire, they threw water on it, which caused a major explosion. The climate change problem is serious enough without shortsighted humans trying to intervene. Even if we were successful in the short run, it is highly improbable we could keep up our efforts into the long run. The best way to survive global climate change is to adapt, which is the method preferred by all successful species. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 05:53:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IDqlRL005143; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:52:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IDeQmg030975; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:40:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:40:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=uDZ27fKyjfejLxRYj0LH9qvpbugSZcMf5uXD/QXHbJLuPoU0XIsQFuVLR+byh8pd; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220072018133955534@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Wesley Bruce's Coal Coking Scheme, Drinking Rum and Coking Koala? Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:39:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94055267128af89a9d34718fe4309c9de06350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1SBvmD.A.3jH.JdF2FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Classification of Coal: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/classification-coal-d_164.html Coke Density Etc: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-densities-specific-volumes-d_166.html Heat Value of Coke Oven Gas: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heating-values-fuel-gases-d_823.html Eucalyptus Stuff: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Eucalyptus_camaldulensis.html Uses "Important timber, firewood, shelter belt, and honey tree. In the Sudan, it is planted to protect crops from blowing sands. The wood, durable, easy to saw, yet resistant to termites, is widely used in Australia for strong durable construction, interior finish, flooring, cabinetry, furniture, fenceposts, cross-ties, sometimes pulpwood. Australian aborigines made canoes from the bark. Survivalists in Australia and elsewhere might learn how the aborigines obtained water from the superficial roots, usually those ca 3 cm in diameter. The roots were excavated or lifted to the soil surface. Then the root was cut into segments ca 45 cm long, debarked, held vertically, and blown into, the water then draining into the receptacle provided." Chemical Analysis of Biomass Fuels Analysing 62 kinds of biomass for heating value, Jenkins and Ebeling (1985) reported a spread of 19.42 to 18.23 MJ/kg, compared to 13.76 for weathered rice straw to 23.28 MJ/kg for prune pits. On a % DM basis, the wh.plant contained 81.42% volatiles, 0.76% ash, 17.82% fixed carbon, 49.00% C, 5.87% H, 43.97% O, 0.30% N, 0.01% S, 0.13% Cl, and undetermined residue. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Classification of Coal:
 
 
Coke Density Etc:
 
 
Heat Value of Coke Oven Gas:
 
 
Eucalyptus Stuff:
 
 

Uses

"Important timber, firewood, shelter belt, and honey tree. In the Sudan, it is planted to protect crops from blowing sands. The wood, durable, easy to saw, yet resistant to termites, is widely used in Australia for strong durable construction, interior finish, flooring, cabinetry, furniture, fenceposts, cross-ties, sometimes pulpwood. Australian aborigines made canoes from the bark. Survivalists in Australia and elsewhere might learn how the aborigines obtained water from the superficial roots, usually those ca 3 cm in diameter. The roots were excavated or lifted to the soil surface. Then the root was cut into segments ca 45 cm long, debarked, held vertically, and blown into, the water then draining into the receptacle provided."
 

Chemical Analysis of Biomass Fuels

Analysing 62 kinds of biomass for heating value, Jenkins and Ebeling (1985) reported a spread of 19.42 to 18.23 MJ/kg, compared to 13.76 for weathered rice straw to 23.28 MJ/kg for prune pits. On a % DM basis, the wh.plant contained 81.42% volatiles, 0.76% ash, 17.82% fixed carbon, 49.00% C, 5.87% H, 43.97% O, 0.30% N, 0.01% S, 0.13% Cl, and undetermined residue.
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 06:31:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IEVZeA030224; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:31:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IEVWOV030196; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:31:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:31:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=H7P4UrUGTGACZQqJB9XvJYG54coUFVP36hjiauIUXyjpc4g0j5efpRupDoEfh60Ky5D9ShYELqMDDPfPMUbzSaSnvCl6T+Fkmdu7JZuXgJ5iZKKTtq8y7ZuDYgEXE2B2CJQT5zgSjaX3ZTFcGdwcjmrb9SP/JzwX1nKBRl+YeMw= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:31:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox In-Reply-To: <45D7D7B6.4040905@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45D7D7B6.4040905@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/17/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Someday I may get around to putting together an "integrated" page on all > this, showing how the pieces fit together; it's not as straightforward > as it appears at first glance. Brian Greene does the porthole view quite well in "The Elegent Universe". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 07:22:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IFMd1l004749; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:22:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IFMaFa004696; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:22:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:22:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=a8fTb+PamurJ8YX+Ot0RCQJuDNDF/pXSVXGPXWARapp9ThU6Q0AvtBPCvVecuIUHFR4JQYYdK06sDmDfMsVoFm/bUZpklOaDgg0vzOG48wbsfOpR/xWkcZY9lZQyUEcIdlLs/UK8MkkVYCOQbAwZF3wyrlt7uF8rLbisiEmopF0= Message-ID: <45D86F18.8010403@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:22:00 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/17/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> This is clearly the "Smoking Gun" ***UNLESS*** Mike is being >> deceitful. Only >> time will tell which is the case. > > I hope you are right. Here is the post to which I referred: > > "Here are some help tips from Mike( User HMM) > > Yes 6 magnets on rotor n-s-n-s-n-s. The key to (over)unity is to time > switch 1 correctly this can be done a number of ways. I will help you > with all of this but first you must get your motor to run. Follow the > first circuit I posted remember to wind the stator with two or more > wires bifiler will work fine I use trifiler. Good Luck > > The value of the cap is not critical I use 47000uf computer cap > although any large electrolytic cap should do. the stator is one coil > bifiler wound then split evenly where the shaft goes through. > > > > follow the first cct and yes trigger is smaller wire. The hall effect > transistor is to activate sw1 I use a solid state relay for sw1. > > wind as much turns as possible try to get above 46 ohm. > > the main winding on my motor is 46 ohms > so 40-60 ohms sorry about that > > cheers > Mike > > in the video the motor was powered by capicitance only. no battery. > Trifiler wound > > If you add a load the motor will slowly come to a stop. > > cheers > > Mike > > Yes feedback, and play with sw1 timing > > **I must tell you I use the third winding on my stator coil as a > generator winding to charge the cap up from 0v, then when the > transistors begin to pulse the back emf through sw1 brings the voltage > on the cap even higher till it levels and the motor is then runing at > unity (this is just what I think is hapening and I could be missing > somthing here) > > OK > Mike > > @Marco I don't Know how long the motor can run for, but I always stop > it after a few hours or so. I am scared to leave it running unattended > (a fire or explosion would not be good)the running voltage is higher > when I give it a big spin by hand. so far every time I ran it the > voltage has always leveled off some where bellow 12v or so my cap is > good up to 25v " That's true in that Mike's been unable to add a load to the machine, but we don't know what size loads he's added. I'm sure he could add a 1 Mohm load and his machine would continue to spin. Although what he's accomplished is still the "smoking gun" if Mike's not hiding anything. What Mike is doing is taking a machine that contains no batteries and a discharged capacitor. Mike then rotates the machines axial with his fingers to get in going. The video clearly shows Mikes machine accelerating by magnitudes after he lets go. You can see the voltage across the capacitor rising up to over 6 volts. So far it appears the machine will run indefinitely. I don't blame Mike for stating the machine is not over-unity. It's my understanding that "over-unity" insinuates energy is being created from nothing, and hence violates the law of conservation of energy. Mike has no idea if energy is being created or simply comes from some unknown source. Therefore, we cannot say Mike's machine is over-unity. Bedini says Mike's machine is over COP 1.0, which is what we really want, right? The machine obviously generating heat by means of kinetic friction. The transistors, resistors, etc. dissipate heat. Yet the machine accelerates, thus gaining KE, and appears to maintain it's angular momentum. One in this industry cannot help think this is a fraud. Let's hope it's the "smoking gun." Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 08:45:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IGipuH024018; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 08:44:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IGinMi023988; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 08:44:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 08:44:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <073c01c7537c$17a778d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25Million Branson Climate Prize) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:44:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1IGikXa023899 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Note this might be a better way to save the whales than leaving them alone :) >> And there may be painless ways to harvest the blubber. >> >> Michel > > By liposuction?? > > Harry I imagine so. I don't know if it has been done actually, nor how painless it can be, but it has been suggested here is the link again: http://swcamborne.com/archives/business-success/liposuction-for-whales Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 09:30:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IHU1us015270; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:30:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IHTvkA015231; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:29:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=MDnwNcuc2FZDsHSSkURu80+jpctRMpqL8AdEP/L5x0HHojnAK18CQp5FFXC2Sx5IULBfjz8iUsGWyHTyz+iYunfR64xNViD0ZhGbeCq7mnpIRpip5A2Kc3dmx/e03hZEX44RxnubcF1eUNxoFjvKEqHyi2DyKsvNU6ZSvUEW+qA=; X-YMail-OSG: yi196SsVM1mgNk.1wVAqM8shi_Noz9OGltuKlin1dHszmdMf_CCIxAgtCyGg_RHd8Tl5m4wxNcuMM7yFIGa9mZWV_HSIOvUs0yz9OCEsWGiI2DV_59eZEmn3VJwmQHIZz.oLw8MBQEltzyw- Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:29:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Status: O X-Status: Is this Sirius [sic]? or sickly serious...? Either this guy in the vid is a good actor, or you-know-who is in deep dog-poo, so to speak. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkpOsUmp-9w&NR I suspect that if these allegations were even remotely true, then the "interested party", the group iconically represented by a jackass, would have delayed its release until summer 2008 ... for maximum effect on the voting public. Or else 'impeachement' is the name-of-the-game (inevitable retribution for the excess of Monica-gate? We do not need impeachment, and all the disharmony that process entails at this critical time in World events - and with all the other bad news coming out of DC, if that is the purpose of these allegation. Doghouse evaluation: Even this political cynic is hoping that this clip is some kind of elaborate hoax. BTW the name of the philosopical "school" which evolved into the concept and 'meme' of cynicism - goes way beyond negativism, but is literally the "doghouse" i.e. it is derived from the building in Athens, Greece called 'Cynosarges,' which was the earliest home of the school, being derived from the Greek word for dog, "cyno" The ancient Cynics, and even the more modern variety, have little problem in taking the dog as their symbol. Arf-arf. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 09:52:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IHqW7S030124; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:52:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IHqURk030107; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:52:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:52:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hEbe1xmDodB1am5UVjqebq5FKo8dJlfikHdhRf4R8dDdYV7weNh4K0Ffle5FkEjxM2XLGNU8Qhb6Pw1qmGD6R9HnC4Ox93+j7NZkKj7w7bsUf07RBmwRZXwh6T6e7KDHkvXAygdn5vsLvLTToPq3lAinqiNf7dX5WGv+ZR06vK4= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:52:27 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/18/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Either this guy in the vid is a good actor, or > you-know-who is in deep dog-poo, so to speak. It kinda looks like him with 16:9 compressed to 4:3 video ratio: http://www.ncpa.org/sub/ea/1999/eax99e.pdf p 2 of 4. Prof. Morgan Reynolds. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 12:07:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IK72U7001305; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:07:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IK6xOJ001262; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:06:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:06:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:07:05 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c75398$5d6fc950$0302a8c0@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following clips are also interesting: 9/11 Truth: Scott Forbes describes power-downs in WTC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJmcvTzYfo&mode=related&search= 9/11 Truth: What Happened to WTC Building 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoibU5njEM 9/11 Truth: David Ray Griffin Speaks @ Santa Rosa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a9vLJIR69A&mode=related&search= NORAD Stand-Down on 9/11: Not Just Simple Incompetence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5q2DO7ofnQ&mode=related&search= -DonW- -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:30 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Is this Sirius [sic]? or sickly serious...? Either this guy in the vid is a good actor, or you-know-who is in deep dog-poo, so to speak. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkpOsUmp-9w&NR I suspect that if these allegations were even remotely true, then the "interested party", the group iconically represented by a jackass, would have delayed its release until summer 2008 ... for maximum effect on the voting public. Or else 'impeachement' is the name-of-the-game (inevitable retribution for the excess of Monica-gate? We do not need impeachment, and all the disharmony that process entails at this critical time in World events - and with all the other bad news coming out of DC, if that is the purpose of these allegation. Doghouse evaluation: Even this political cynic is hoping that this clip is some kind of elaborate hoax. BTW the name of the philosopical "school" which evolved into the concept and 'meme' of cynicism - goes way beyond negativism, but is literally the "doghouse" i.e. it is derived from the building in Athens, Greece called 'Cynosarges,' which was the earliest home of the school, being derived from the Greek word for dog, "cyno" The ancient Cynics, and even the more modern variety, have little problem in taking the dog as their symbol. Arf-arf. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 12:24:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IKNxTI016993; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:23:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IKNth0016944; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:23:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:23:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Y3lad0GR6BhG7g6TPSfmRtofiZcEzMEvjybTy6a7e1WjXFpZ50VId9CJk662FokwBnKoJQO6vz1qP8JQQgmclFOzMiG+6CEriEZFHEYMGN5wkv9tLGgG6tIHpHt4GpJlvr9tmnfu7uEa6Ib/5/kWeclqxEDnT9GiKQjTCkFHTa0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:23:51 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <000001c75398$5d6fc950$0302a8c0@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18219_14508251.1171830231027" References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000001c75398$5d6fc950$0302a8c0@donw> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_18219_14508251.1171830231027 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Here is an interesting one, footage FOX showed just once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc Clearly no plane crashed there, if the plane was hit by a missile and blew to smithereens (in which case it would still be more left than reported) it couldn't leave a hole in the Ground, clearly it's just a missile hit the ground. Until now I doubted the claim that it was a missile that hit the pentagon but not anymore. Of course flashes can be seen before each of the planes hit the Trade center. And a guy was burnt by an explosion that went off early in the basement. Freefall of a building like that without explosives is not possible. And how come building 7 went down too? On 2/19/07, DonW wrote: > > The following clips are also interesting: > > 9/11 Truth: Scott Forbes describes power-downs in WTC > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJmcvTzYfo&mode=related&search= > > 9/11 Truth: What Happened to WTC Building 7 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoibU5njEM > > 9/11 Truth: David Ray Griffin Speaks @ Santa Rosa > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a9vLJIR69A&mode=related&search= > > NORAD Stand-Down on 9/11: Not Just Simple Incompetence > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5q2DO7ofnQ&mode=related&search= > > -DonW- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:30 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... > > Is this Sirius [sic]? or sickly serious...? > > Either this guy in the vid is a good actor, or > you-know-who is in deep dog-poo, so to speak. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkpOsUmp-9w&NR > > I suspect that if these allegations were even remotely > true, then the "interested party", the group > iconically represented by a jackass, would have > delayed its release until summer 2008 ... for maximum > effect on the voting public. > > Or else 'impeachement' is the name-of-the-game > (inevitable retribution for the excess of Monica-gate? > > > We do not need impeachment, and all the disharmony > that process entails at this critical time in World > events - and with all the other bad news coming out of > DC, if that is the purpose of these allegation. > > Doghouse evaluation: Even this political cynic is > hoping that this clip is some kind of elaborate hoax. > > BTW the name of the philosopical "school" which > evolved into the concept and 'meme' of cynicism - goes > way beyond negativism, but is literally the "doghouse" > i.e. it is derived from the building in Athens, > Greece called 'Cynosarges,' which was the earliest > home of the school, being derived from the Greek word > for dog, "cyno" > > The ancient Cynics, and even the more modern variety, > have little problem in taking the dog as their symbol. Arf-arf. > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 > 4:35 PM > > > ------=_Part_18219_14508251.1171830231027 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Here is an interesting one, footage FOX showed just once:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc

Clearly no plane crashed there, if the plane was hit by a missile and blew to smithereens (in which case it would still be more left than reported) it couldn't leave a hole in the Ground, clearly it's just a missile hit the ground.

Until now I doubted the claim that it was a missile that hit the pentagon but not anymore.

Of course flashes can be seen before each of the planes hit the Trade center.
And a guy was burnt by an explosion that went off early in the basement.
Freefall of a building like that without explosives is not possible.

And how come building 7 went down too?

On 2/19/07, DonW < dwiegel@qwest.net> wrote:
The following clips are also interesting:

9/11 Truth: Scott Forbes describes power-downs in WTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJmcvTzYfo&mode=related&search=

9/11 Truth: What Happened to WTC Building 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoibU5njEM

9/11 Truth: David Ray Griffin Speaks @ Santa Rosa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a9vLJIR69A&mode=related&search=

NORAD Stand-Down on 9/11: Not Just Simple Incompetence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5q2DO7ofnQ&mode=related&search=

-DonW-


-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:30 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido....

Is this Sirius [sic]? or sickly serious...?

Either this guy in the vid is a good actor, or
you-know-who is in deep dog-poo, so to speak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkpOsUmp-9w&NR

I suspect that if these allegations were even remotely
true, then the "interested party", the group
iconically represented by a jackass, would have
delayed its release until summer 2008 ... for maximum
effect on the voting public.

Or else 'impeachement' is the name-of-the-game
(inevitable retribution for the excess of Monica-gate?


We do not need impeachment, and all the disharmony
that process entails at this critical time in World
events - and with all the other bad news coming out of
DC, if that is the purpose of these allegation.

Doghouse evaluation: Even this political cynic is
hoping that this clip is some kind of elaborate hoax.

BTW the name of the philosopical "school" which
evolved into the concept and 'meme' of cynicism - goes
way beyond negativism, but is literally the "doghouse"
<g> i.e. it is derived from the building in Athens,
Greece called 'Cynosarges,' which was the earliest
home of the school, being derived from the Greek word
for dog, "cyno"

The ancient Cynics, and even the more modern variety,
have little problem in taking the dog as their symbol. Arf-arf.




--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007
4:35 PM



------=_Part_18219_14508251.1171830231027-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 12:47:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1IKleVK028042; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:47:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1IKlc4a028016; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:47:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:47:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:47:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200724151248572@earthlink.net> <000e01c75103$494d1a50$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <50j9t2hgj6d6vfr06rjajicn7cc3d862da@4ax.com> <001401c7514d$e1b90840$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <001401c7514d$e1b90840$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:47:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1IKla7X027992 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:05:13 -0500: Hi Mike, [snip] I guess what I was really trying to say is: Don't expect too much sympathy for the cause from Branson because I suspect that advertising is the main aim of the prize. That doesn't mean people shouldn't attempt to win it. IOW I was considering the prospect that there might be "more where that came from", and giving the prospect a low rating. >And, I suppose, Gate's foundation is also cheap advertising and Buffet's >ante is conscience salve? At this juncture, we need all the initiatives we >can get and I think it counter-productive to diss them. Branson's wealth is >minor league compared to Gates and Buffet, but it is in the right direction. >Or would you prefer a government grant? > >Mike Carrell >----------------------------------------- >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >To: >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:10 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize > > >> In reply to Nick Palmer's message of Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:14:48 -0000: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> I wouldn't get too hung up on this prize. It looks more like Branson >> buying >> cheap advertising. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 15:43:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1INhYt3004865; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:43:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1INhVO4004844; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:43:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:43:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:40:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters In-reply-to: <004701c7528c$4c1a9ca0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> No extra force in oil, it works just the same as a lifter it's an EHD >> thruster, called "ion drag pump" when the medium is a dielectric liquid and >> the thruster is stationary: oil molecules are ionized, and ion current from a >> sharper electrode to a flatter electrode entrains neutrals. Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > I agree with this. It is also obvious to see the "flow" of oil around the > electrodes. One can use a clear oil, like mineral oil, and take a darkly > colored oil and squirt a bit into the mineral oil in front of the submerged > lifter and see how it is sucked through the lifter...it will grab onto and > carry quite a bit of extra oil along for the ride. "entrains neutrals" (MJ) and "extra oil along for the ride" (KM) tells me that the total weight that needs to be propelled is greater than the weight of the materials that comprise the lifter. The vacuum experiments may have proven that the presence of a medium of some kind is _necessary_, but I doubt the force derived from the ionic theory is _sufficient_ to MOVE the lifter _and_ the added medium mass that accompanies the lifter. If I am correct, then I suspect the primary role of the medium is to serve as a vital link in the system rather than as the location of the primary propulsive force. In addition the medium must be free to flow around the lifter because disrupting the flow appears to inhibit the motion of the lifter. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 18:30:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1J2U8C3008087; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:30:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1J2U5lB008050; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:30:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Better way to sequester CO2- re branson Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:29:55 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5p2it2906b2jjdsg7iecdq6sii8nfttb5f@4ax.com> References: <45D83EFA.9070906@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <45D83EFA.9070906@iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.6.115] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:29:54 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1J2Tumq007874 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:56:42 +1100: Hi, [snip] >Most of the energy in coal is in the hydrogen bonds not the >carbon to carbon bonds. [snip] There is very little hydrogen in coal (much more in oil), so I think you need to prove this point Wesley. Furthermore, even in oil, more energy is derived from the formation of CO2 than from the formation of water. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 21:26:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1J5QgD5021592; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:26:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1J5QeoO021577; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:26:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=4jyPglEZv5k7NPJ2wy256BPT4lDAkhS9xZ/FJtqD9idt8xKE9ydPAp5AdIxK9PCj85r2JWJ6m5khXITJrHVGrrKx95R1yt4+x+52Y0DgkdoforQjuldVcol1aVPvlUXi15k5jpGzhjHvLjk+eRvg3Os/3JpOno4d2pd5khcqQg4=; X-YMail-OSG: 2RX.x78VM1l8NdNmn99xVhtzshvx5ltdixn7WnixkYqMyp4x5RkiO_.buVF1YqMyjop6HSKHk9.HXtZeqCiwA01mWmGzZxrqQCvMINAIOf4rtlcmveHt7zU8nZSJP62Z.ONCc72e_879q2k- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.7 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.7 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:26:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <769585.83983.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1J5Qclw021557 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RT Quantum Hall Effect Status: O X-Status: There was a rather intriguing announcement last week in the context of LENR theory, which was almost slipping past Vortex without comment: The Quantum Hall Effect has been documented at Room Temperature. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070215144044.htm The cross-connection of this announcement to LENR is wrt other quantum mechanical properties, specifically the BEC. Can the BEC - when confirmed to also exist at RT if only for nanoseconds - be far behind? ... make that "far ahead," if you believe that LENR is a quasi-BEC effect which was first demonstrated in 1989 by P&F. The quantum Hall effect, like the BEC was previously believed to only be observable at temperatures close to absolute zero (minus 459 degreesF). But recently a form of carbon called graphene - in a high magnetic field has made the observation possible. Graphene is the name given to a single layer of carbon atoms densely packed into a benzene-ring structure like nanotubes, etc. (e.g., carbon nanotubes are usually thought of as graphene sheets rolled up into nanometer-sized cylinders). Planar graphene itself was once presumed not to exist in the free state, as it is inherently *highly stressed* due to the packing arrangement. The high field adds extra stress. ... not unlike deuterium, when confined in a metal matrix... Temperature and pressure (internal stress) are somewhat interchangeable. Frank Grimer coined this combined property as "compreture". In a situation where internal stress creates effective pressures in the range of 10^6 psi, you can (arguably) have a situation at 300 K (=RT) where the compreture property is effectively the same as an unstressed material near zero K. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 02:23:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1J9XDg1021205; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:33:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1J9XBW4021176; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:33:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:33:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07b601c75408$31bbc7d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007201802041801@earthlink.net> <008101c752f8$6f2548f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <009901c752fa$c314a440$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:27:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1J9X8rR021128 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One big point in favor of the factory ships implementation: immediate recycling of the nutrients (including recovery of a sizeable proportion of the iron which will have been dispensed), which probably find themselves concentrated in the press cake after the oil has been pressed out of the microalgae. This is assuming the oil itself keeps only a negligible proportion of the nutrients, is this correct? If we return the press cake to the ocean surface as we go, the nutrients are ready to be re-used almost immediately: all we will have removed is renewable stuff: CO2 from the atmosphere, photosynthesis energy from the sun, and maybe some water, which makes the process sustainable even on a large scale IMHO. Michel (a repented whale hunter ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC >I forgot to mention, the process should be repeated on the move in open sea rather than e.g. in a bay, so that each iteration occurs at a place where dissolved CO2 and nutrients have not been recently depleted by the previous runs (it takes time for those resources to be restored) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:02 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > > >> We are all in-seine aren't we, this is Vortex after all :) >> >> In any case I think we all agree on the function to be implemented: >> >> Local iron fertilization of the ocean surface > On the fly harvesting of the algae bloom > Conversion to oil and possibly charcoal >> >> The rest is mere implementation details, cost will decide, we should rule out no particular technical solution at this point (not even the whales Nick ;-) >> >> Can you do the cost analysis for the factory ships implementation you describe below Fred? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:20 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC >> >>> Sounds to me like Michel (Dave's Gender I. D. Problem) is acting out >>> Arthur Dent's worst nightmare. >>> I posted Michel an algae-confinement-fine mesh-floated-seine idea the other >>> day, but >>> living near the Seine I guess he thinks I'm in-seine. :-) >>> The seas should contain adequate nutrients that can diffuse into the seines >>> that >>> can be tens of meters wide and thousands of meters long. The iron powder >>> can be retained in the seine, with barges that reel it in and through for >>> harvesting >>> and iron replenishment. >>> A whale of a lot better than torturing a declining population of whales. >>> >>> Fred >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 02:26:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1J7r2JW011067; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:53:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1J7qx74011047; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:52:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:52:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:53:11 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c753fb$0174d880$0302a8c0@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1J7qwKr011021 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT Phenomenon Archives Heavy Watergate The War Against Cold Fusion Status: O X-Status: This TV Documentary was made in 2000. I'm sure many of you are aware of it. However, for those of us who have not viewed it, here it is. -DonW- Phenomenon Archives: Heavy Watergate, The War Against Cold Fusion http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2229511748333360205&q=fusion&hl=en In 'Phenomenon Archives: Heavy Watergate, the War Against Cold Fusion,' viewers investigate the idea of cold fusion. If viable, cold fusion ... all » offers the possibility of limitless cheap energy. Some have suggested that the quashing of cold fusion projects in the late '80s was due to certain agencies not wishing to undermine the position of U.S. energy corporations From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 05:37:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JDbltH020386; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:37:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JDbd6c020287; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:37:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:37:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c75429$b4b56e90$1a027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <769585.83983.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:27:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: RT Quantum Hall Effect Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote, > The quantum Hall effect, like the BEC was previously believed to only be > observable at temperatures close to absolute zero (minus 459 degreesF). > > But recently a form of carbon called graphene - in a high magnetic field > has made the observation possible. Graphene is the name given to a single > layer of carbon atoms densely packed into a benzene-ring structure like > nanotubes, etc. (e.g., carbon nanotubes are usually thought of as graphene > sheets rolled up into nanometer-sized cylinders). Planar graphene itself > was once presumed not to exist in the free state, as it is inherently > *highly stressed* due to the packing arrangement. The high field adds > extra stress. > > ... not unlike deuterium, when confined in a metal matrix... > > Temperature and pressure (internal stress) are somewhat interchangeable. > Frank Grimer coined this combined property as "compreture". In a situation > where internal stress creates effective pressures in the range of 10^6 > psi, you can (arguably) have a situation at 300 K (=RT) where the > compreture property is effectively the same as an unstressed material near > zero K. Howdy Jones, Make that...." somewhat" inter- unreactive and it fits in my head as compreture. Electro-chemistry strident. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 07:04:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JF488a010060; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:04:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JF45aX010049; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:04:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:04:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:03:57 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers were destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms and I have pointed out previously, hundreds of the world's best civil engineers examined the videos and physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and thorough engineering investigation in history. All of them agreed that the airplanes alone destroyed the structure. The notion that you could fool all of these experts, or bribe or frighten them into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly impossible -- utterly absurd. If you pay attention to cold fusion, you will see that one of the most important lessons is: Experts are right. Electrochemists and materials scientists know what they are doing, and when they say there is excess heat, you should believe them. You should NOT believe idiots who know nothing about the relevant science, such as Robert Park in the case of cold fusion, or the economist in this video. This guy actually said, in the beginning of the video, that when he saw the initial images on television he was "sure those building would not fall." Compare that to the reaction of every qualified engineering expert in the world who saw the videos. They all knew that it was just a matter of time -- minutes or hours -- before the buildings collapsed. According to their later testimony, the only thing that surprised most of them was how long the buildings stood. As I mentioned here years ago, one of the British experts tried to get through by phone to the New York Police to warn them to evacuate, because -- he later told investigators -- he could tell at a glance that the building would soon fall. Also, John Berry's assertion that no aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania, and that aircraft leave a large hole in the ground is preposterous. I know a thing or two about crashed airplanes. I have seen many photos of them, plus two small fatal air crashes here at the Peachtree Dekalb airport. They caused no more damage to the surroundings than a car crash. My father visited Stalingrad and other Russian battlefields, and saw the remains of large aircraft that crashed plus lots of other destroyed equipment and holes in the ground -- the worst mayhem in history. He did not see (and you will not see in the photos of the battle) giant holes in the ground, except from artillery. Even the largest modern aircraft accidents seldom make large holes. Airplanes are light, low density aluminum vehicles. There is a test facility next to my office where people crush and destroy aircraft wings and fuselages, and they leave a large pile of wrecked equipment behind the building. I have seen people over there carry around smashed wing sections larger than themselves, and in air crashes the fragments are seldom as large as people (and what is left of the people on board is seldom larger than a breadbox). When aircraft strike the ground or a concrete wall, they shatter into many small pieces. It is not like a cartoon, where they make a single large hole in the shape of an airplane. Also, as with the Towers, there were thousand of witnesses and rescue workers, and if there had not been a smashed airplane on the ground in Pennsylvania, that secret would be impossible to cover up. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 07:57:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JFv8nX017066; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:57:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JFv68e017036; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:57:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:57:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:56:59 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_762a92d5c9fe92280e5d3f913d999097" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_762a92d5c9fe92280e5d3f913d999097 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Jed, > > The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers > were destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms > and I have pointed out previously, hundreds of the > world's best civil engineers examined the videos and > physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted > steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and > thorough engineering investigation in history. > All of them agreed that the airplanes alone > destroyed the structure. The notion that you could > fool all of these experts, or bribe or frighten them > into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly > impossible -- utterly absurd. ... I pretty much agree with analysis you and other structural engineers have had to say on this particularly sordid historical event. Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your arguments will do little to change the minds of what appear to be a number of vocal participants who remain convinced the WTC buildings were brought down by missiles pre-launched by the jets, combined with a carefully planned conspiracy that had to have been conceived and implemented from within the highest echelons of our government. It seems to me that it's really not about uncovering the awful truths of what actually happened on that awful day of 9/11. It's more about grappling with the belief that we live in a cynical world where intrigue and deception lurks in most of the established institutions that run the daily affairs of our mundane lives, for which many of us may occasionally feel helpless to change. As I have suggested many times in the past: Chose your conspiracies wisely. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_762a92d5c9fe92280e5d3f913d999097 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings Jed,

>
> The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers
> were destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms
> and I have pointed out previously, hundreds of the
> world's best civil engineers examined the videos and
> physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted
> steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and
> thorough engineering investigation in history.
> All of them agreed that the airplanes alone
> destroyed the structure. The notion that you could
> fool all of these experts, or bribe or frighten them
> into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly
> impossible -- utterly absurd.

...

I pretty much agree with analysis you and other structural engineers have h= ad to say on this particularly sordid historical event.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your arguments wi= ll do little to change the minds of what appear to be a number of vocal par= ticipants who remain convinced the WTC buildings were brought down by missi= les pre-launched by the jets, combined with a carefully planned conspiracy = that had to have been conceived and implemented from within the highest ech= elons of our government.

It seems to me that it's really not about uncovering the awful truths of wh= at actually happened on that awful day of 9/11. It's more about grappling w= ith the belief that we live in a cynical world where intrigue and deception= lurks in most of the established institutions that run the daily affairs o= f our mundane lives, for which many of us may occasionally feel helpless to= change.

As I have suggested many times in the past: Chose your conspiracies wisely.=

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


--=_762a92d5c9fe92280e5d3f913d999097-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 08:42:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JGgm3v024290; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:42:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JGgkDd024272; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:42:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:42:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:42:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1JGghvT024239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed and Steven, I don't believe in a conspiracy either, but I think it's conceivable that distributed explosives were used to minimize the death toll by making them fall cleanly (vertically), rather than messily (laterally over neighboring buildings) if/when their fall became unavoidable. Unless there is a non-explosive way to design towers so that even when fragilized on one side they will fall vertically? Maybe there is, after all it's an Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... > Greetings Jed, > >> >> The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers >> were destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms >> and I have pointed out previously, hundreds of the >> world's best civil engineers examined the videos and >> physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted >> steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and >> thorough engineering investigation in history. >> All of them agreed that the airplanes alone >> destroyed the structure. The notion that you could >> fool all of these experts, or bribe or frighten them >> into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly >> impossible -- utterly absurd. > > ... > > I pretty much agree with analysis you and other structural engineers have had to say on this particularly sordid historical event. > > Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your arguments will do little to change the minds of what appear to be a number of vocal participants who remain convinced the WTC buildings were brought down by missiles pre-launched by the jets, combined with a carefully planned conspiracy that had to have been conceived and implemented from within the highest echelons of our government. > > It seems to me that it's really not about uncovering the awful truths of what actually happened on that awful day of 9/11. It's more about grappling with the belief that we live in a cynical world where intrigue and deception lurks in most of the established institutions that run the daily affairs of our mundane lives, for which many of us may occasionally feel helpless to change. > > As I have suggested many times in the past: Chose your conspiracies wisely. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 08:45:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JGidJt016142; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JGiYne016059; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <190b01c75445$38559d40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:44:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1JGiS37015927 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed and Steven, I don't believe in a conspiracy either, but I think it's conceivable that distributed explosives were used to minimize the death toll by making them fall cleanly (vertically), rather than messily (laterally over neighboring buildings) if/when their fall became unavoidable. Unless there is a non-explosive way to design towers so that even when fragilized on one side they will fall vertically? Maybe there is, after all the problem must be a common one. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... > Greetings Jed, > >> >> The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers >> were destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms >> and I have pointed out previously, hundreds of the >> world's best civil engineers examined the videos and >> physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted >> steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and >> thorough engineering investigation in history. >> All of them agreed that the airplanes alone >> destroyed the structure. The notion that you could >> fool all of these experts, or bribe or frighten them >> into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly >> impossible -- utterly absurd. > > ... > > I pretty much agree with analysis you and other structural engineers have had to say on this particularly sordid historical event. > > Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your arguments will do little to change the minds of what appear to be a number of vocal participants who remain convinced the WTC buildings were brought down by missiles pre-launched by the jets, combined with a carefully planned conspiracy that had to have been conceived and implemented from within the highest echelons of our government. > > It seems to me that it's really not about uncovering the awful truths of what actually happened on that awful day of 9/11. It's more about grappling with the belief that we live in a cynical world where intrigue and deception lurks in most of the established institutions that run the daily affairs of our mundane lives, for which many of us may occasionally feel helpless to change. > > As I have suggested many times in the past: Chose your conspiracies wisely. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 08:45:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JGikAb016208; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JGiagl016081; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SZqBvTSy+xaHZyA6kRlJDQQYfzH6b69s96MaoEvri7Gb+B6tVYvPgXEyurzWvyHEKF5+e/YAao56n9a/WvKzBcY9q71AofCfUDBS6GnNbK+bh6Is2SR/fi0Hk/jvZ7QwGJjvvAOi452hT5bXzKMQ9mcnDZW+P+qGADqllPZ+8wU= ; X-YMail-OSG: SV70lU4VM1l6yO_i2RfAI1xAF6Xsg_.SzfeNiBpMeNrYGIiqp.R44wKyS345GEMYCTn8V06xESHxwdST5xd.jn69y6cykJfO6yuImxN0XxtrqNhW6pGq6lHlTO4D1WN8OM9cOlG5UVwr2A-- Message-ID: <45D9D3E9.6010001@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:44:25 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1JGiTGS015946 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers were destroyed on > purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms and I have pointed out > previously, hundreds of the world's best civil engineers examined the > videos and physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted steel. > This was the most detailed, expensive and thorough engineering > investigation in history. Baloney!! This is not only false on several levels, but absurd. There is no consensus among the so-called "hundreds of the world's best civil engineers" and many excellent engineers on or associated with the 9/11 commission had their contrary opinions eliminated from the final report by direct order from Philip Zelikow. And this was NOT an exhaustive investigation by any means. The commission was a terribly underfunded, hastily conducted effort which was little more than a white-wash for an administration going head-long into War. To put the failure of the commission into perspective, the total investigation was conducted for tens of millions of dollars less than was spent by Kenneth Starr over a minor sexual indiscretion. The most glaring error in Rothwell's logic is the failure to realize that there are sins of commission and sins of omission. "Omission" in the same sense as the "New Pearl Harbor" charge of preplanned non-responsiveness. The administration did not need to be directly involved in the hijacking itself, nor even to encourage it though double agents, in order to be guilty of an unforgivable sin of omission, which is certainly treasonous, IF they had detailed information that the plot was underway [which they did according to the agents who provided it] - and yet did nothing to stop it. IOW at some high level in the Pentagon/CIA - but not necessarily the White House, our government knew that there was an Al Queda plot underway, knew the target, knew the names of most of the Arabs plotters, knew the time frame within a window of hours, and received a call that morning that Atta was boarding the plane at Logan, and yet did nothing to intercede - knowing that the results would probably justify a War in the Middle East, which had been preplanned in advance... ... at least that is the claim of those who were formerly part of the Bush Administration, but who cannot live with a guilty conscience, like the Official in the video. The "omitters" probably did not realize that the end results would be so horrific - but nevertheless, they may bear the full guilt of these ~3000 murders - IF these underlying accusations are accurate. Personally, I do not believe they are totally accurate- but do recognize that a complete and non-partisan investigation needs to be run - or else this thing will grow and fester. At lease the public deserves a higher-level Warren Commission white-wash to avoid the kind of future civil discontent already seen possible in this kind of payback scenario [of the OK-city variety]. The 9/11 Commission’s so-called investigative work was carried out under the minute-by-minute control of the White House’s man inside the Commission, Philip Zelikow, a fact that the mainstream press has not emphasized. Under Zelikow’s leadership, the Commission took the role of the prosecution for the Bush administration’s brief against al-Qaeda. In doing so, it implicitly took the role of the defense for the Bush administration and eliminated all contrary opinions. The report was a joke to many. That is the contention of those who want the investigation reopened. Even if they are wrong in some minor details they have made an excellent prima facie case to go back and conduct a decent investigation - under the control of N. Pelosi, this time around. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 08:53:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JGquq0032327; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:52:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JGqtUk032298; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:52:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:52:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:52:27 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your >arguments will do little to change the minds of what appear to be a >number of vocal participants who remain convinced the WTC buildings >were brought down by missiles pre-launched by the jets, combined >with a carefully planned conspiracy that had to have been conceived >and implemented from within the highest echelons of our government. That brings up another important point. This administration is incompetent, to say the least. Because they ignored the advice of experts and made blunder after blunder, they lost the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they were unable to rescue the people stuck in New Orleans for several days. They cannot even run a prison in Baghdad. So why does anyone imagine that this administration is capable of orchestrating and carrying out the largest deception in history, and magically persuading thousands of top experts all over the world to go along with the cover up? The deceptions that covered up the D-Day landings were much simpler to carry out than this would be, and they were the biggest, most sophisticated, best orchestrated and best kept secrets in history. This administration is particularly inept when it comes to intelligence and secret tactics. For example, they could not keep it a secret that they were successfully targeting Al Qaeda terrorists by tracking cell phones. A spokesman at the White House announced that fact on national television after the tactic worked once or twice, so of course the terrorists stopped using cell phones. It is as if after the Battle of Midway Roosevelt's press secretary had announced to the world: "We won that battle mainly because we cracked the Japanese Naval code." (In fact, the Chicago Tribune did publish that fact in the article soon after the battle, because someone in the Navy leaked the secret to a reporter. Fortunately, Japanese agents in the U.S. did not read the article. The administration decided not to bring charges against the newspaper because that would have meant testifying about the facts in open court.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 09:07:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JH6BYa032008; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:06:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JH4kgq031448; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:04:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:04:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219115330.036989d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:04:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <45D9D3E9.6010001@pacbell.net> References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> <45D9D3E9.6010001@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >There is no consensus among the so-called "hundreds of the world's >best civil engineers" and many excellent engineers on or associated >with the 9/11 commission had their contrary opinions eliminated from >the final report by direct order from Philip Zelikow. Okay, where are these people? Why have they not published books, and gone on talk shows? I read the newspapers; I would have heard from them by now. They would not simply shut up, give up, and go away if they had any inkling that explosives were used. > And this was NOT an exhaustive investigation by any means. There was not one investigation; there were many independent investigations, in the U.S. and elsewhere. In Japan, Taiwan and China, for example, experts planning and constructing tall buildings all put all projects on hold and spent many months examining the data and physical evidence, reviewing standards and changing building plans. (This was described in the Japanese media.) Do you really think these people would not recognize the difference between explosives and burning fuel? Or do you claim that the Bush administration can magically fool structural engineers in Tokyo and Beijing, or silence them? >IOW at some high level in the Pentagon/CIA - but not necessarily the >White House, our government knew that there was an Al Queda plot >underway, knew the target, knew the names of most of the Arabs plotters . . . That is an entirely different assertion. Structural engineers would not find physical evidence of such a conspiracy. As I said, I do not think this administration could conspire its way out of a paper bag. People who cannot even keep it secret that they track people by cell phones cannot pull off a plot on this scale. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 09:26:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JHQXe5015577; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:26:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JHQWPG015562; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:26:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:26:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mQgORXfjLnAglgPGsz21oN/Z6OVAIJZWSzIIKND1Ko7bfgxzWoMZYcNmqU0RMSVgZjYZqteoDFoV5zrQdepyXtHyU6qr//0U/bfUlkNuqnUWvefawEJoflxnlfTNMgPGJyOkSgwFqLeauF9as1tTeDEFlZBFWTim5wdpBdv8tvU= ; X-YMail-OSG: SrgioNIVM1maUEFKkLvN6xT14LHtuiFY8CVUiFBpinH.eiB5ClhgafdR9aJuwGAyJvlZlnecSto5Undqnw3XW9vf2aBehx8Yc6VOmk2Na.9zw2RrvbC2QacQimUG0Dm7_Ts6pRENXo5c6EY- Message-ID: <45D9DDC2.3090203@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:26:26 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> <45D9D3E9.6010001@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219115330.036989d8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219115330.036989d8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >> There is no consensus among the so-called "hundreds of the world's >> best civil engineers" and many excellent engineers on or associated >> with the 9/11 commission had their contrary opinions eliminated from >> the final report by direct order from Philip Zelikow. > Okay, where are these people? Why have they not published books, and > gone on talk shows? I read the newspapers; I would have heard from them > by now. Maybe Fox is you favorite network ? Fox or "Faux" being the Bush mouthpiece, although that role is a-changin' ... ... and "These people" (echoes of Barbara Bush after Katrina), even if you do not like the opinions of Steve Jones, have published books. Here is a starting point. http://www.journalof911studies.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 09:28:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JHQZKD019371; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:26:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JHPFIM018783; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:25:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:25:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:21:52 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-reply-to: <190b01c75445$38559d40$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Hi Jed and Steven, > > I don't believe in a conspiracy either, but I think it's conceivable that > distributed explosives were used to minimize the death toll by making them > fall cleanly (vertically), rather than messily (laterally over neighboring > buildings) if/when their fall became unavoidable. If explosives were used only for this reason, then keeping this quiet would qualify as a conspiracy. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 10:05:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JI5KJL009293; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:05:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JI5JS0009268; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:05:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:05:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:05:15 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Hi Jed and Steven, > > I don't believe in a conspiracy either, but I think it's conceivable > that distributed explosives were used to minimize the death toll by > making them fall cleanly (vertically), rather than messily (laterally > over neighboring buildings) if/when their fall became unavoidable. > > Unless there is a non-explosive way to design towers so that even > when fragilized on one side they will fall vertically? Maybe there > is, after all it's an I've read that with such a structure, in which the center of gravity is on the centerline, hundreds of feet from the edges, it's difficult to get the building to fall any way _except_ straight down. Tall buildings don't normally tip over; they just collapse. Again, so I've read -- I'm certainly no expert (but then, neither's Steven Jones and that doesn't keep him from shooting off his mouth, so there you go). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" > To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 4:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... > > >> Greetings Jed, >> >>> The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers were >>> destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms and I have >>> pointed out previously, hundreds of the world's best civil >>> engineers examined the videos and physical evidence from the >>> Towers, such as the melted steel. This was the most detailed, >>> expensive and thorough engineering investigation in history. All >>> of them agreed that the airplanes alone destroyed the structure. >>> The notion that you could fool all of these experts, or bribe or >>> frighten them into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly >>> impossible -- utterly absurd. >> ... >> >> I pretty much agree with analysis you and other structural >> engineers have had to say on this particularly sordid historical >> event. >> >> Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your >> arguments will do little to change the minds of what appear to be a >> number of vocal participants who remain convinced the WTC buildings >> were brought down by missiles pre-launched by the jets, combined >> with a carefully planned conspiracy that had to have been conceived >> and implemented from within the highest echelons of our government. >> >> >> It seems to me that it's really not about uncovering the awful >> truths of what actually happened on that awful day of 9/11. It's >> more about grappling with the belief that we live in a cynical >> world where intrigue and deception lurks in most of the established >> institutions that run the daily affairs of our mundane lives, for >> which many of us may occasionally feel helpless to change. >> >> As I have suggested many times in the past: Chose your conspiracies >> wisely. >> >> Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 10:14:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JIESqX015083; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:14:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JIEQs6015069; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:14:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:14:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070219101450.0303bc30@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:15:15 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT Phenomenon Archives Heavy Watergate The War Against Cold Fusion In-Reply-To: <001201c753fb$0174d880$0302a8c0@donw> References: <001201c753fb$0174d880$0302a8c0@donw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_76136000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_76136000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2007/NET20.htm 5. Excerpts from Cold Fusion: Fire from Water on Google Video New Energy Institute (www.newenergytimes.com) is pleased to announce a recent collaboration with the New Energy Foundation (www.infinite-energy.com). New Energy Institute has released an edited version of the phenomenal 1999 documentary Cold Fusion: Fire from Water, produced by Eugene Mallove and the New Energy Foundation, and is making it available at no cost via the Internet. Mallove was a visionary who saw the potential of this scientific phenomenon. This brilliant film captures the heart of the new field of condensed matter nuclear science, in which ongoing research is demonstrating stronger and stronger evidence that there is hope for a better solution to the world's energy and environmental problems. Edited by Steven B. Krivit and released by New Energy Institute with permission from the New Energy Foundation. The film is available at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6426393169641611451&q=COLD+FUSION&hl=en. The film can also be downloaded and played in Google's proprietary viewer. In 1999, the New Energy Foundation granted permission to a third party to use content from Cold Fusion: Fire from Water to produce an alternate, very interesting version of the film, titled Phenomenon Archives: Heavy Watergate, The War Against Cold Fusion. It is available at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2229511748333360205&q=COLD+FUSION&hl=en. --=====================_76136000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2007/NET20.htm

5. Excerpts from Cold Fusion: Fire from Water on Google Video

New Energy Institute (www.newenergytimes.com) is pleased to announce a recent collaboration with the New Energy Foundation (www.infinite-energy.com). New Energy Institute has released an edited version of the phenomenal 1999 documentary Cold Fusion: Fire from Water, produced by Eugene Mallove and the New Energy Foundation, and is making it available at no cost via the Internet. Mallove was a visionary who saw the potential of this scientific phenomenon. This brilliant film captures the heart of the new field of condensed matter nuclear science, in which ongoing research is demonstrating stronger and stronger evidence that there is hope for a better solution to the world's energy and environmental problems.
 
Edited by Steven B. Krivit and released by New Energy Institute with permission from the New Energy Foundation.

The film is available at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6426393169641611451&q=COLD+FUSION&hl=en .
The film can also be downloaded and played in Google's proprietary viewer.


In 1999, the New Energy Foundation granted permission to a third party to use content from Cold Fusion: Fire from Water to produce an alternate, very interesting version of the film, titled Phenomenon Archives: Heavy Watergate, The War Against Cold Fusion. It is available at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2229511748333360205&q=COLD+FUSION&hl=en .
--=====================_76136000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 12:00:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JK0Amr003420; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:00:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JK049s003360; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:00:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:00:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=UntuEdXXIdU3VIgYcLcsvcqnvML8f86Tqs3PFQo0chbeKNzTYLbJStKtdwPzdbNOswqk2ch80bnP4s9P9/klSFofspvFcbzdbbQXEx92YZYrB6wHVlilDqNg2CILkRf3LHnoXHtfCOFwxlzB97xIlgbt1NOvONf0wnvivEx1FtU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:59:59 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_29042_32231863.1171915199929" References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_29042_32231863.1171915199929 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers were destroyed > on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms and I have pointed out > previously, hundreds of the world's best civil engineers examined the > videos and physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted > steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and thorough engineering > investigation in history. All of them agreed that the airplanes alone > destroyed the structure. The notion that you could fool all of these > experts, or bribe or frighten them into hiding the truth, is > ludicrous. It is utterly impossible -- utterly absurd. I'm sorry but that's just not so. The steel structure of the WTC was massive, as you assert later airplanes just don't do that much damage, and most of the fuel was burnt in the first few seconds outside the building. Assuming pancaking is possible, it is going to slow the fall. it would take 7 seconds for something dropped from the WTC to hit the ground, one collapsed in just 8 seconds. Which means that basically the pancaking offered no resistance at all, if that were the case I wonder why it hadn't come down already from just a boisterous party with everyone jumping around. And what of WTC 7? It is the only building to come down due to fire! Ever! And it wasn't a case of it being badly damaged by the fall of the WTC towers because the other smaller buildings around it very badly damaged (understatement) remained standing. But what of the bone fragments found on the roofs of distant buildings, are we meant to believe that this can be caused by a building in free fall? And as already mention people injured in an explosion in the basement. *http://tinyurl.com/3d4wd7 *Honestly there isn't a single part of this that adds up, but I suspect that you are simply not open to the possibilities that the US Government would do that to it's own people. That is however blind naive trust, Hitler did it in Germany. And what of the medical experiments on Black men, and White women in America, and other crimes by those in power? If you pay attention to cold fusion, you will see that one of the > most important lessons is: Experts are right. Electrochemists and > materials scientists know what they are doing, and when they say > there is excess heat, you should believe them. You should NOT > believe idiots who know nothing about the relevant science, such as > Robert Park in the case of cold fusion, or the economist in this > video. This guy actually said, in the beginning of the video, that > when he saw the initial images on television he was "sure those > building would not fall." Compare that to the reaction of every > qualified engineering expert in the world who saw the videos. They > all knew that it was just a matter of time -- minutes or hours -- > before the buildings collapsed. According to their later testimony, > the only thing that surprised most of them was how long the buildings > stood. As I mentioned here years ago, one of the British experts > tried to get through by phone to the New York Police to warn them to > evacuate, because -- he later told investigators -- he could tell at > a glance that the building would soon fall. > > Also, John Berry's assertion that no aircraft crashed in > Pennsylvania, and that aircraft leave a large hole in the ground is > preposterous. I didn't say Aircraft leave a large hole in the ground, indeed they don't. But this one did, you didn't watch the video so you don't know what your talking about here. I know a thing or two about crashed airplanes. I have > seen many photos of them, plus two small fatal air crashes here at > the Peachtree Dekalb airport. They caused no more damage to the > surroundings than a car crash. So check out the video, you will see a hole in the ground, confetti and that's it. Nothing that came anywhere close to explaining where a 100 ton (or tonne?) Boeing and how many passengers? went. Find a single crash in aviation history where nothing is left, but for a hold in the ground. Oh, I know, they are underground! ;) My father visited Stalingrad and other > Russian battlefields, and saw the remains of large aircraft that > crashed plus lots of other destroyed equipment and holes in the > ground -- the worst mayhem in history. He did not see (and you will > not see in the photos of the battle) giant holes in the ground, > except from artillery. Exactly Even the largest modern aircraft accidents > seldom make large holes. Airplanes are light, low density aluminum > vehicles. There is a test facility next to my office where people > crush and destroy aircraft wings and fuselages, and they leave a > large pile of wrecked equipment behind the building. I have seen > people over there carry around smashed wing sections larger than > themselves, and in air crashes the fragments are seldom as large as > people (and what is left of the people on board is seldom larger than > a breadbox). When aircraft strike the ground or a concrete wall, they > shatter into many small pieces. It is not like a cartoon, where they > make a single large hole in the shape of an airplane. Also, as with > the Towers, there were thousand of witnesses and rescue workers And they all said observed that there was pretty much nothing there. Show me a single plane crash where 1: There is nothing of any size left and not even a lot of what is left 2: Despite 1, there is a hole in the ground. , and > if there had not been a smashed airplane on the ground in > Pennsylvania, that secret would be impossible to cover up. There is indeed a crashed unmanned something, but not an airplane. May I also point out that on both of the videos showing the 1st plane hit (There was another one besides the fireman one), and all videos showing the second one hit, there is a flash seen before the plane hits. This flash is unmistakable and impossible to explain away. There are also other flaws: The ID's of the Hijackers, of the passengers on the planes, The video of Osama who had said he didn't do it, now saying he had, only it didn't look like him. The phone calls couldn't have been made from the planes. Planes can't even pull off the turns and ascent/decent claimed. (This is both because they switched planes in flight, and the planes which hit were not boeings) How about this one. One of the Pilots supposedly flying one of the planes (I forget which one, watch 'loose change 2' on youtube) took part in a mock exercise of such an event in the 80's before becoming a United pilot. What of the hijackers passports (not required on a national flight) found outside the WTC? sound believable to you? One woman (I forget which of the 4 planes) they found her ID twice, oh well. It is odd that the did an unprecedented power down of the WTC while guys were running around wiring something up just before hand, also strange that after that they stopped the bomb sniffing dogs they always had, but I'm sure the security handled by a company run by Bush's bro wouldn't do any such thing. Because politician are good, they wouldn't do anything evil? You feel that deep down inside right? Leaders never attack their own people, just look a history. In fact I wonder how the term 'false flag operation' even entered the English language. I propose that leaders, of America anyway, democratically elected (well, we think but don't look too close you know) should not even be considered possible to do anything bad, well to their own people at least, mostly at least. (and certainly not Bush, he cares so much he flew over New Orleans in a plane, Ok he didn't send any help but still) Or are you willing to consider the possibility that they may have done it, that it shouldn't be ruled out of hand as it was with Hitler and Nero, in which case it is only a question of where the evidence lies? ------=_Part_29042_32231863.1171915199929 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers were destroyed
on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms and I have pointed out
previously, hundreds of the world's best civil engineers examined the
videos and physical evidence from the Towers, such as the melted
steel. This was the most detailed, expensive and thorough engineering
investigation in history. All of them agreed that the airplanes alone
destroyed the structure. The notion that you could fool all of these
experts, or bribe or frighten them into hiding the truth, is
ludicrous. It is utterly impossible -- utterly absurd.

I'm sorry but that's just not so.
The steel structure of the WTC was massive, as you assert later airplanes just don't do that much damage, and most of the fuel was burnt in the first few seconds outside the building.

Assuming pancaking is possible, it is going to slow the fall.
it would take 7 seconds for something dropped from the WTC to hit the ground, one collapsed in just 8 seconds.
Which means that basically the pancaking offered no resistance at all, if that were the case I wonder why it hadn't come down already from just a boisterous party with everyone jumping around.

And what of WTC 7?
It is the only building to come down due to fire! Ever!
And it wasn't a case of it being badly damaged by the fall of the WTC towers because the other smaller buildings around it very badly damaged (understatement) remained standing.

But what of the bone fragments found on the roofs of distant buildings, are we meant to believe that this can be caused by a building in free fall?

And as already mention people injured in an explosion in the basement.
http://tinyurl.com/3d4wd7

Honestly there isn't a single part of this that adds up, but I suspect that you are simply not open to the possibilities that the US Government would do that to it's own people.

That is however blind naive trust, Hitler did it in Germany.
And what of the medical experiments on Black men, and White women in America, and other crimes by those in power?

If you pay attention to cold fusion, you will see that one of the
most important lessons is: Experts are right. Electrochemists and
materials scientists know what they are doing, and when they say
there is excess heat, you should believe them. You  should NOT
believe idiots who know nothing about the relevant science, such as
Robert Park in the case of cold fusion, or the economist in this
video. This guy actually said, in the beginning of the video, that
when he saw the initial images on television he was "sure those
building would not fall." Compare that to the reaction of every
qualified engineering expert in the world who saw the videos. They
all knew that it was just a matter of time -- minutes or hours --
before the buildings collapsed. According to their later testimony,
the only thing that surprised most of them was how long the buildings
stood. As I mentioned here years ago, one of the British experts
tried to get through by phone to the New York Police to warn them to
evacuate, because -- he later told investigators -- he could tell at
a glance that the building would soon fall.

Also, John Berry's assertion that no aircraft crashed in
Pennsylvania, and that aircraft leave a large hole in the ground is
preposterous.

I didn't say Aircraft leave a large hole in the ground, indeed they don't.
But this one did, you didn't watch the video so you don't know what your talking about here.

I know a thing or two about crashed airplanes. I have
seen many photos of them, plus two small fatal air crashes here at
the Peachtree Dekalb airport. They caused no more damage to the
surroundings than a car crash.

So check out the video, you will see a hole in the ground, confetti and that's it.
Nothing that came anywhere close to explaining where a 100 ton (or tonne?) Boeing and how many passengers? went.
Find a single crash in aviation history where nothing is left, but for a hold in the ground.
Oh, I know, they are underground! ;)

My father visited Stalingrad and other
Russian battlefields, and saw the remains of large aircraft that
crashed plus lots of other destroyed equipment and holes in the
ground -- the worst mayhem in history. He did not see (and you will
not see in the photos of the battle) giant holes in the ground,
except from artillery.

Exactly

Even the largest modern aircraft accidents
seldom make large holes. Airplanes are light, low density aluminum
vehicles. There is a test facility next to my office where people
crush and destroy aircraft wings and fuselages, and they leave a
large pile of wrecked equipment behind the building. I have seen
people over there carry around smashed wing sections larger than
themselves, and in air crashes the fragments are seldom as large as
people (and what is left of the people on board is seldom larger than
a breadbox). When aircraft strike the ground or a concrete wall, they
shatter into many small pieces. It is not like a cartoon, where they
make a single large hole in the shape of an airplane. Also, as with
the Towers, there were thousand of witnesses and rescue workers

And they all said observed that there was pretty much nothing there.
Show me a single plane crash where 1: There is nothing of any size left and not even a lot of what is left 2: Despite 1, there is a hole in the ground.

, and
if there had not been a smashed airplane on the ground in
Pennsylvania, that secret would be impossible to cover up.

There is indeed a crashed unmanned something, but not an airplane.

May I also point out that on both of the videos showing the 1st plane hit (There was another one besides the fireman one), and all videos showing the second one hit, there is a flash seen before the plane hits.

This flash is unmistakable and impossible to explain away.

There are also other flaws:
The ID's of the Hijackers, of the passengers on the planes, The video of Osama who had said he didn't do it, now saying he had, only it didn't look like him.
The phone calls couldn't have been made from the planes.
Planes can't even pull off the turns and ascent/decent claimed. (This is both because they switched planes in flight, and the planes which hit were not boeings)

How about this one.
One of the Pilots supposedly flying one of the planes (I forget which one, watch 'loose change 2' on youtube) took part in a mock exercise of such an event in the 80's before becoming a United pilot.

What of the hijackers passports (not required on a national flight) found outside the WTC? sound believable to you?
One woman (I forget which of the 4 planes) they found her ID twice, oh well.

It is odd that the did an unprecedented power down of the WTC while guys were running around wiring something up just before hand, also strange that after that they stopped the bomb sniffing dogs they always had, but I'm sure the security handled by a company run by Bush's bro wouldn't do any such thing.

Because politician are good, they wouldn't do anything evil?
You feel that deep down inside right?
Leaders never attack their own people, just look a history.
In fact I wonder how the term 'false flag operation' even entered the English language.

I propose that leaders, of America anyway, democratically elected (well, we think but don't look too close you know) should not even be considered possible to do anything bad, well to their own people at least, mostly at least. (and certainly not Bush, he cares so much he flew over New Orleans in a plane, Ok he didn't send any help but still)

Or are you willing to consider the possibility that they may have done it, that it shouldn't be ruled out of hand as it was with Hitler and Nero, in which case it is only a question of where the evidence lies?
------=_Part_29042_32231863.1171915199929-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 12:44:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JKibsR007840; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:44:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JKiZ8A007814; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:44:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:44:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219151028.03604280@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:44:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24469453==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72971 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24469453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Berry wrote: >And what of WTC 7? >It is the only building to come down due to fire! Ever! What is that supposed to mean? Steel frame buildings are easy to destroy with fire. Back in the 1960s, when dad and his friends at the National Bureau of Standards used to burn down steel frame buildings on purpose, they found these building were actually more vulnerable than wooden ones. They investigated many similar accidental failures, and improved the standards. >And it wasn't a case of it being badly damaged by the fall of the >WTC towers because the other smaller buildings around it very badly >damaged (understatement) remained standing. > >But what of the bone fragments found on the roofs of distant >buildings, are we meant to believe that this can be caused by a >building in free fall? > >And as already mention people injured in an explosion in the basement. >http://tinyurl.com/3d4wd7 I can come up with about a hundred similar sounding urban myths about cold fusion and zero-point energy: that some monastery in Europe is running on a magnet powered motor, that the government has suppressed knowledge of super carburetors, that Toyota factory forklifts run with cold fusion power. This is the kind of conspiracy theory nonsense is peddled by people who are certain that cold fusion is fraud, and also by those at the opposite extreme who are convinced that it is being suppressed by the government. Both sides are based on extreme notions about how the world works, such as the idea that experts cannot be trusted to do what they are trained to do, or they know nothing, or that powerful officials can fool, frighten, or buy off hundreds or electrochemists or thousands of structural engineers world-wide. That is simply out of the question. There is no chance all these experts are wrong or bamboozled. Uninformed idiots such as Robert Park and Steve Jones make such huge mistakes, but experts do not. If they did, bridges and buildings would collapse all over town on their own, and the Internet and phone network would fail every ten minutes. Reality makes for dull reading. It is not interesting to know that cold fusion has been attacked and ineptly suppressed by people such as Robert Park simply because they are closed-minded fools. - Jed --=====================_24469453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John Berry wrote:

And what of WTC 7?
It is the only building to come down due to fire! Ever!

What is that supposed to mean? Steel frame buildings are easy to destroy with fire. Back in the 1960s, when dad and his friends at the National Bureau of Standards used to burn down steel frame buildings on purpose, they found these building were actually more vulnerable than wooden ones. They investigated many similar accidental failures, and improved the standards.


And it wasn't a case of it being badly damaged by the fall of the WTC towers because the other smaller buildings around it very badly damaged (understatement) remained standing.

But what of the bone fragments found on the roofs of distant buildings, are we meant to believe that this can be caused by a building in free fall?

And as already mention people injured in an explosion in the basement.
http://tinyurl.com/3d4wd7

I can come up with about a hundred similar sounding urban myths about cold fusion and zero-point energy: that some monastery in Europe is running on a magnet powered motor, that the government has suppressed knowledge of super carburetors, that Toyota factory forklifts run with cold fusion power.

This is the kind of conspiracy theory nonsense is peddled by people who are certain that cold fusion is fraud, and also by those at the opposite extreme who are convinced that it is being suppressed by the government. Both sides are based on extreme notions about how the world works, such as the idea that experts cannot be trusted to do what they are trained to do, or they know nothing, or that powerful officials can fool, frighten, or buy off hundreds or electrochemists or thousands of structural engineers world-wide. That is simply out of the question. There is no chance all these experts are wrong or bamboozled. Uninformed idiots such as Robert Park and Steve Jones make such huge mistakes, but experts do not. If they did, bridges and buildings would collapse all over town on their own, and the Internet and phone network would fail every ten minutes.

Reality makes for dull reading. It is not interesting to know that cold fusion has been attacked and ineptly suppressed by people such as Robert Park simply because they are closed-minded fools.

- Jed
--=====================_24469453==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 12:58:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JKvtZF017478; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:57:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JKvrSV017449; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:57:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:57:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:54:24 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Lifter aerodynamics Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> No extra force in oil, it works just the same as a lifter it's an EHD >>> thruster, called "ion drag pump" when the medium is a dielectric liquid and >>> the thruster is stationary: oil molecules are ionized, and ion current from >>> a >>> sharper electrode to a flatter electrode entrains neutrals. > > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > >> I agree with this. It is also obvious to see the "flow" of oil around the >> electrodes. One can use a clear oil, like mineral oil, and take a darkly >> colored oil and squirt a bit into the mineral oil in front of the submerged >> lifter and see how it is sucked through the lifter...it will grab onto and >> carry quite a bit of extra oil along for the ride. > > > "entrains neutrals" (MJ) and "extra oil along for the ride" (KM) > tells me that the total weight that needs to be propelled is greater than > the weight of the materials that comprise the lifter. > > The vacuum experiments may have proven that the presence of a medium of some > kind is _necessary_, but I doubt the force derived from the ionic theory is > _sufficient_ to MOVE the lifter _and_ the added medium mass that accompanies > the lifter. > > If I am correct, then I suspect the primary role of the medium is to serve > as a vital link in the system rather than as the location of the primary > propulsive force. In addition the medium must be free to flow around the > lifter because disrupting the flow appears to inhibit the motion of the > lifter. > > Harry > On second thought, what really matters is that lifter must be able to overcome aerodynamic forces in addition to being able to move its own weight. e.g. The amount of air-mass it must move will depend on the aerodynamic profile of the lifter. When the power is on the aerodynamic profile is effectively expanded so it must be able to displace more air mass. An "ion-wind" may produce enough force to let the lifter hover, but can it produce enough force to let the lifter (and its expanded electro-aeordynamic profile) _ascend_ through the air? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 13:05:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JL5or4000411; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:05:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JL5kZk000384; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:05:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:05:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DcQ02w9XOs1HigKQoSassNf1zGrIJc5/kxqfWL9md2+g+9wccA4rE76UV96buKI37i9ryS5mycmvSJQRDh8ogBBju9jICDFs3Tob6km1JTcwn3sezVGp9JaPYUhqkD/Op1iQ6dWWZX/bmeIU7qm3FJohsf+cPW3koMRkU9r2Eao= ; X-YMail-OSG: bUIuw2IVM1lq45fONmGwxPlLgmINEDHk.VA9QGc9mN9QY1yNMSESwgyr9nTtNJnL_k59yq4vAswc3JVuXeSOzP4WLXik.z26O7lWUCPjQPYDsBqgcGuzueUT2KiPiL0y8MXclrExK81wjNc- Message-ID: <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:05:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1JL5iCT000361 Resent-Message-ID: <4d8ccD.A.4F.pEh2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Status: O X-Status: Anatomy of (a minor part of) the 9/11 coverup: Detail in point: Greed is hard to disguise. The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (aka the "9/11 Commission") investigated rumors of stock profiteering and found that although some unusual trading activity did occur in the days prior to September 11, it was all "coincidentally innocuous" and not the result of insider trading by "parties with foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks" ... What they failed to say is that they only investigated links to "Arabs with possible foreknowledge," and found nothing but did not look at foreknowledge by "good ole boys(friends of W)" nor CIA officials - and one official in particular. OK to most folks, including Fox network and all conservatives on the religious right - that statement of "innocuous trading" and that alone - even if coming from officials investigating themselves was enough to quell concerns. Case closed. True, no sane individual can doubt that highly unusual pre-9/11 trading activity occurred in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks. The SEC labeled this as *unprecedented* trading. For example, the volume of put options — instruments that pay off only when a stock drops in price — surged in the parent companies of United Airlines on September 6 and American Airlines on September 10 — and was hundreds to thousands of times higher than it should have been, statistically. Yet, "further investigation has revealed that the trading had no connection with 9/11." Hey, our government says everything is OK so that's that, right? And yes, each such trade "proved to have an innocuous explanation," in that there was no Arab link... but guess what - there was definitely foreknowledge by someone who the commission would not reveal by name, however, and it took threats of a freedom of information lawsuit to pry out the exact names and even then only later in time, after no one in the media was very interested. The "single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda which purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10" was NOT in fact US based. That was the first lie. And in fact this institutional investor was a company called Alex Brown, which is the investment arm of the German banking giant Deutschebank/A.B. Brown. This firm was one of 20 major U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin as being connected to money laundering. Surprise, surprise. Alex Brown had been headed-up for years before 9/11 by the man who became the Executive Director of the Central Intelligence Agency shortly before the tragedy: "Buzzy" Krongard. If this sounds like the Cheney/Halliburton connection, then go to the head of the class. Krongard's position at Alex Brown included overseeing "private client relations" (billionaires only). In this capacity he had direct hands-on relations with some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. Senate and other investigators as being closely connected to the laundering of drug and arms-running money. Yet he went directly to the top of CIA - no questions asked. AB “Buzzy” Krongard, after the smoke had cleared, later resigned from CIA after the arrival of Peter Goss in December 2004 (presumably a very wealthy man) and moved on to a large law firm. But ... he is the man responsible for providing the insider-information (according to conspiracy theorists) on which the unusual option trades at Alex Brown were based: the ones which never got investigated because they were "innocuous." This is according to sources other than the 9/11 commission, of course, which actively hindered this information coming out to the general public. The Director of CIA 6 months prior to 9/11 was George J. Tenet. He announced the appointment of Krongard on March 16, 2001 to serve as Executive Director. The Executive Director is the third ranking position within the CIA, and functions essentially as the Chief Operating Officer of the Agency. IOW it was Krongard, not Tenet who was in position to know all the details of the plot which Mossad claims they gave to the CIA in advance of the tragedy. Wonder why network television has not run this particular story on the the national news? or why Krongard's overseas banking records have never come to light to clear his name - if he is guiltless ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 13:14:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JLE8Ms003363; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:14:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JLE7bK003344; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:14:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:14:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219155727.036aa3d0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:13:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Grisly air crashes Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >Show me a single plane crash where 1: There is nothing of any size >left and not even a lot of what is left 2: Despite 1, there is a >hole in the ground. I will show you two, both well known and well documented: 1. The second Lockheed Electra crash, 1960, which produced a hole with nothing but fragments in it. 2. The DC10 crash in 1974, in France. Lots of small fragments, characteristic of a high-speed impact. Quote: "I have seen many aircraft impacts. I have seen some aircraft torn up as much as this one, but I must say I have never seen any airplane torn up as much as this over such a large area. The pieces were extremely small, very fragmented, and it was scattered over an area half a mile long by 120 yards or so wide." Charles Miller, Director of Aviation Safety, NTSB. Photos bear this out. It looks like a large pile of junk with few pieces larger than a person. Regarding the people, there were 346 on board. Six were sucked out of airplane before the crash, when the door flew off. 34 others were more or less in one piece. The others were shredded into approximately 18,000 fragments. (P. Eddy, et al., "Destination Disaster," NYT Books, p. 248) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 13:16:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JLGA4H003781; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:16:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JLG9J2003767; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:16:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:16:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <193701c75458$0fd019a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:59:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1JLG2Ef003746 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You must be right, I think I visualize how it can work now: heaviest bit (staircases) in the middle tends to fall first, and far away periphery has large torque action preventing tipping over... Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Hi Jed and Steven, >> >> I don't believe in a conspiracy either, but I think it's conceivable >> that distributed explosives were used to minimize the death toll by >> making them fall cleanly (vertically), rather than messily (laterally >> over neighboring buildings) if/when their fall became unavoidable. >> >> Unless there is a non-explosive way to design towers so that even >> when fragilized on one side they will fall vertically? Maybe there >> is, after all it's an > > I've read that with such a structure, in which the center of gravity is > on the centerline, hundreds of feet from the edges, it's difficult to > get the building to fall any way _except_ straight down. > > Tall buildings don't normally tip over; they just collapse. > > Again, so I've read -- I'm certainly no expert (but then, neither's > Steven Jones and that doesn't keep him from shooting off his mouth, so > there you go). > >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" >> To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 4:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... >> >> >>> Greetings Jed, >>> >>>> The person in this video asserts that the Twin Towers were >>>> destroyed on purpose, with explosives. As Ed Storms and I have >>>> pointed out previously, hundreds of the world's best civil >>>> engineers examined the videos and physical evidence from the >>>> Towers, such as the melted steel. This was the most detailed, >>>> expensive and thorough engineering investigation in history. All >>>> of them agreed that the airplanes alone destroyed the structure. >>>> The notion that you could fool all of these experts, or bribe or >>>> frighten them into hiding the truth, is ludicrous. It is utterly >>>> impossible -- utterly absurd. >>> ... >>> >>> I pretty much agree with analysis you and other structural >>> engineers have had to say on this particularly sordid historical >>> event. >>> >>> Unfortunately, as I'm sure you are also well resigned to, your >>> arguments will do little to change the minds of what appear to be a >>> number of vocal participants who remain convinced the WTC buildings >>> were brought down by missiles pre-launched by the jets, combined >>> with a carefully planned conspiracy that had to have been conceived >>> and implemented from within the highest echelons of our government. >>> >>> >>> It seems to me that it's really not about uncovering the awful >>> truths of what actually happened on that awful day of 9/11. It's >>> more about grappling with the belief that we live in a cynical >>> world where intrigue and deception lurks in most of the established >>> institutions that run the daily affairs of our mundane lives, for >>> which many of us may occasionally feel helpless to change. >>> >>> As I have suggested many times in the past: Chose your conspiracies >>> wisely. >>> >>> Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com >>> >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 13:49:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JLnoTB017327; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:49:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JLnnEB017308; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:49:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:49:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:49:45 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4mD-S.A.YOE.8th2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Anatomy of (a minor part of) the 9/11 coverup: > > Detail in point: Greed is hard to disguise. > > The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (aka > the "9/11 Commission") investigated rumors of stock profiteering and > found that although some unusual trading activity did occur in the days > prior to September 11, it was all "coincidentally innocuous" and not the > result of insider trading by "parties with foreknowledge of the 9/11 > attacks" ... What they failed to say is that they only investigated > links to "Arabs with possible foreknowledge," and found nothing but did > not look at foreknowledge by "good ole boys(friends of W)" nor CIA > officials - and one official in particular. > > OK to most folks, including Fox network and all conservatives on the > religious right - that statement of "innocuous trading" and that alone - > even if coming from officials investigating themselves was enough to > quell concerns. Case closed. > > True, no sane individual can doubt that highly unusual pre-9/11 trading > activity occurred in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks. > The SEC labeled this as *unprecedented* trading. For example, the volume > of put options — instruments that pay off only when a stock drops in > price — surged in the parent companies of United Airlines on September 6 > and American Airlines on September 10 — and was hundreds to thousands of > times higher than it should have been, statistically. > > Yet, "further investigation has revealed that the trading had no > connection with 9/11." Hey, our government says everything is OK so > that's that, right? > > And yes, each such trade "proved to have an innocuous explanation," in > that there was no Arab link... but guess what - there was definitely > foreknowledge by someone who the commission would not reveal by name, > however, and it took threats of a freedom of information lawsuit to pry > out the exact names and even then only later in time, after no one in > the media was very interested. > > The "single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties > to al Qaeda which purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as > part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of > American on September 10" was NOT in fact US based. Do you mean they bought 115,000 puts on American on 9/10, or 115,000 shares on 9/10 (which is what you wrote)? If it's the latter, as you actually wrote above, then that makes it sound a lot less like they had foreknowledge of what was coming, and a lot more like it really was just some whoo-te-doo hedging scheme that involved buying airline stock puts _and_ shares at about the same time. Otherwise why would they buy _any_ shares of an airline stock on 9/10? Going long 115,000 shares the day before the roof fell in doesn't sound especially clever if they knew what was coming. > > That was the first lie. And in fact this institutional investor was a > company called Alex Brown, which is the investment arm of the German > banking giant Deutschebank/A.B. Brown. This firm was one of 20 major > U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin as being connected to money > laundering. > > Surprise, surprise. Alex Brown had been headed-up for years before 9/11 > by the man who became the Executive Director of the Central Intelligence > Agency shortly before the tragedy: "Buzzy" Krongard. If this sounds like > the Cheney/Halliburton connection, then go to the head of the class. > Krongard's position at Alex Brown included overseeing "private client > relations" (billionaires only). In this capacity he had direct hands-on > relations with some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of > specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. > Senate and other investigators as being closely connected to the > laundering of drug and arms-running money. Yet he went directly to the > top of CIA - no questions asked. > > AB “Buzzy” Krongard, after the smoke had cleared, later resigned from > CIA after the arrival of Peter Goss in December 2004 (presumably a very > wealthy man) and moved on to a large law firm. But ... he is the man > responsible for providing the insider-information (according to > conspiracy theorists) on which the unusual option trades at Alex Brown > were based: the ones which never got investigated because they were > "innocuous." This is according to sources other than the 9/11 > commission, of course, which actively hindered this information coming > out to the general public. > > The Director of CIA 6 months prior to 9/11 was George J. Tenet. He > announced the appointment of Krongard on March 16, 2001 to serve as > Executive Director. The Executive Director is the third ranking position > within the CIA, and functions essentially as the Chief Operating Officer > of the Agency. IOW it was Krongard, not Tenet who was in position to > know all the details of the plot which Mossad claims they gave to the > CIA in advance of the tragedy. > > Wonder why network television has not run this particular story on the > the national news? or why Krongard's overseas banking records have never > come to light to clear his name - if he is guiltless ? > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:02:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JN1tbE028441; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:01:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JN1rnf028430; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:01:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:01:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OQ9khP9ErSyah2GT2L73dhsmnurquN18tsGgpy/fGPF8ZfZPZsU7WMJflYBHFVgq0NrYzcIqrutdzGruHnbHi671OMeT3OIVCJwfwznOcSgAvUREc7k4nUsMA11w5O2ctO6p56GpUVj7ZHqpDxMb6SQ22joaT+14d8YQjPjapH4= ; X-YMail-OSG: WPe5jw4VM1nVM3KtMileFVeSJCM5R05yTbI7cYfoDFpW5Px0XZgTvpXH2uAXEem4r6p6fEjmC9CrB6IBFgQ7gjBU9x3V8MoO0Mws3jgYknJdxxrx8yzg0AswjA07o2bPViFocDYEbOEijcA- Message-ID: <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:01:47 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Do you mean they bought 115,000 puts on American on 9/10 Yes. The day before. or 115,000 shares on 9/10 (which is what you wrote)? No, there was absolutely no hedge ! It was a straight short-sell from the reports which have appeared in print, and they are not contradicted AFAIK. That is what had immediately raised the suspicion of the SEC on 9/12, before the White House had a talk with them. Needless to say, there is no way to verify these details as true or not. Had the 9/11 commission been truly independent and adversarial - as was Kenneth Starr for instance- then yes, we could trust more of what they said ... and be able to discover who actually placed the beyond-risky short sell trade - as this is a huge gamble that NO institutional trader would ever dare to make - with the money of others and WITHOUT the hedge in palce to limit the downside loss. Every broker will no doubt agree - that without the hedge, the trader gets fired on the spot. Definite no-no. ...(which is the point which you were getting at, apparently)... ...but all of this info about Krongard had to be dug-up by others, since the 9/11 commission was really no more than a rubber stamp for what the White House was ordering them to say. Even worse, they were actively impeding much of this information about Krongard. Caveat. I find this stuff interesting, and worth reading, but do not believe in the full extent of any high level conspiracy. Krongard may have been near the top of the ladder. I do not buy the "missile theory" or the fake passenger list or any of that other crap. The smoking gun is WTC7 - building seven - and if Steven Jones had just stuck with just the WTC7 as his main argument, then he would have found a lot more converts, MANY more, as the other stuff is tenuous, at best, and ludicrous at worst - and may have been planted to make the real damage seem to be part of the same nut-case package. However, there was definitely a signed and valid *demolition permit* which had been issued by NYC to the WTC, following the old explosion in the parking garage, and that was for the ENTIRE complex - as tenancy had dropped way-off and they were intending to take the whole complex down, regardless. There is zero argument about that, yet many casual observers do not not know it. A photocopy of that demolition permit (circa 1997) was on the net at one time, but appears to have been removed. At least my link is dead. And I agree that it would have been absolutely *unconscionable* for the new owner to have allowed thousands of workers to continue to work there, for the 3-4 years afterwards - in ignorance of this ! if the buildings had already been fitted with the thermite - which is what others are saying. Also the (over)insurance policy could never have been issued, if this was known. Yet that is what some experts claim to see in the video - clear evidence of timed sequential thermite detonation. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:29:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JNTdTs019306; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:29:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JNTciX019295; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:29:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:29:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:29:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >And I agree that it would have been absolutely *unconscionable* for >the new owner to have allowed thousands of workers to continue to >work there, for the 3-4 years afterwards - in ignorance of this ! if >the buildings had already been fitted with the thermite - which is >what others are saying. That is preposterous. Modern demolition with explosives has been done for over 50 years, mainly by Controlled Demolition, Inc., (CDI) the Loizeaux family. (http://www.controlled-demolition.com) Their methods are well documented. I have read a book about them, and seen television documentaries. In all cases -- ABSOLUTELY ALL CASES -- the explosives are set in buildings in the last stage after everything that can be removed from the building has been removed, and the main support beams have been chopped. If the weight of furniture and people were still in the building in the last stage, after they cut the main supports, it would collapse without explosives. The explosives add little energy to the process -- not enough to topple an intact building. To put it another way, setting off the explosives without cutting the main supports would not destroy it. There is not a single explosive or fuse on-site or in preparation until the building has been completely gutted and is all but ready to topple over on its own. Nobody goes around stuffing explosives into buildings before they begin demolition. No "permit" would be issued for such a thing, and if they saw you in New York City with explosives you would be arrested immediately. I doubt they allow this technique in New York City. CDI also does forensic investigations of accidental explosions. The chances that anyone could fool them while destroying the Twin Towers are probably zero to five significant places. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:37:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JNbVko025351; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:37:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JNbU6N025337; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:37:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kks3nFtqi0x2sFd3oskRnbNFEcj2iM2HV2iFSJmUCf14hEASxy/RvWJejEvv84Y2K+RptMbMelGjMYpPtW4n4HbfX7e/w8nBL6EDxeCGw12vXjTILNlh2elwkHHZ+Lwpy5V5H1id22b5nmdM81fhZ0vpQ5sbVAlbURUIhPQVjZ0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:37:28 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31077_6821832.1171928248673" References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_31077_6821832.1171928248673 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, then explain. Why did they get rid of the bomb sniffing dogs after the mysterious powerdown? On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Jones Beene wrote: > > >And I agree that it would have been absolutely *unconscionable* for > >the new owner to have allowed thousands of workers to continue to > >work there, for the 3-4 years afterwards - in ignorance of this ! if > >the buildings had already been fitted with the thermite - which is > >what others are saying. > > That is preposterous. Modern demolition with explosives has been done > for over 50 years, mainly by Controlled Demolition, Inc., (CDI) the > Loizeaux family. (http://www.controlled-demolition.com) Their methods > are well documented. I have read a book about them, and seen > television documentaries. In all cases -- ABSOLUTELY ALL CASES -- the > explosives are set in buildings in the last stage after everything > that can be removed from the building has been removed, and the main > support beams have been chopped. If the weight of furniture and > people were still in the building in the last stage, after they cut > the main supports, it would collapse without explosives. The > explosives add little energy to the process -- not enough to topple > an intact building. To put it another way, setting off the explosives > without cutting the main supports would not destroy it. > > There is not a single explosive or fuse on-site or in preparation > until the building has been completely gutted and is all but ready to > topple over on its own. > > Nobody goes around stuffing explosives into buildings before they > begin demolition. No "permit" would be issued for such a thing, and > if they saw you in New York City with explosives you would be > arrested immediately. > > I doubt they allow this technique in New York City. > > CDI also does forensic investigations of accidental explosions. The > chances that anyone could fool them while destroying the Twin Towers > are probably zero to five significant places. > > - Jed > > ------=_Part_31077_6821832.1171928248673 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, then  explain. Why did they get rid of the bomb sniffing dogs after the mysterious powerdown?



On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell < JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Jones Beene wrote:

>And I agree that it would have been absolutely *unconscionable* for
>the new owner to have allowed thousands of workers to continue to
>work there, for the 3-4 years afterwards - in ignorance of this ! if
>the buildings had already been fitted with the thermite - which is
>what others are saying.

That is preposterous. Modern demolition with explosives has been done
for over 50 years, mainly by Controlled Demolition, Inc., (CDI) the
Loizeaux family. ( http://www.controlled-demolition.com) Their methods
are well documented. I have read a book about them, and seen
television documentaries. In all cases -- ABSOLUTELY ALL CASES -- the
explosives are set in buildings in the last stage after everything
that can be removed from the building has been removed, and the main
support beams have been chopped. If the weight of furniture and
people were still in the building in the last stage, after they cut
the main supports, it would collapse without explosives. The
explosives add little energy to the process -- not enough to topple
an intact building. To put it another way, setting off the explosives
without cutting the main supports would not destroy it.

There is not a single explosive or fuse on-site or in preparation
until the building has been completely gutted and is all but ready to
topple over on its own.

Nobody goes around stuffing explosives into buildings before they
begin demolition. No "permit" would be issued for such a thing, and
if they saw you in New York City with explosives you would be
arrested immediately.

I doubt they allow this technique in New York City.

CDI also does forensic investigations of accidental explosions. The
chances that anyone could fool them while destroying the Twin Towers
are probably zero to five significant places.

- Jed


------=_Part_31077_6821832.1171928248673-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:41:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JNfFvd021906; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:41:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JNfFPl021899; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:41:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:41:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AlcxUbbSxFg/B6XPcjKkuqfCG2UBbwHy4sfU/LutZiuGGIYFDBhL5Xm0ImHAovzKpkY8mvIlDk3vImQT948qS2iJyX3N0fQLUoFgKogPUrJPKgFNQL+LAWmbfTKnx2kpFUP4//zvltW8PSk9mi/2JYaNheFQUXH10u68F45ZsTw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:41:14 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Grisly air crashes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219155727.036aa3d0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31125_32361409.1171928474254" References: <618890.68599.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219093600.03604280@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219155727.036aa3d0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_31125_32361409.1171928474254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so this then was a lot worse, as they said nothing larger than a phone book! On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > >Show me a single plane crash where 1: There is nothing of any size > >left and not even a lot of what is left 2: Despite 1, there is a > >hole in the ground. > > I will show you two, both well known and well documented: > > 1. The second Lockheed Electra crash, 1960, which produced a hole > with nothing but fragments in it. > > 2. The DC10 crash in 1974, in France. Lots of small fragments, > characteristic of a high-speed impact. Quote: "I have seen many > aircraft impacts. I have seen some aircraft torn up as much as this > one, but I must say I have never seen any airplane torn up as much as > this over such a large area. The pieces were extremely small, very > fragmented, and it was scattered over an area half a mile long by 120 > yards or so wide." Charles Miller, Director of Aviation Safety, NTSB. > Photos bear this out. It looks like a large pile of junk with few > pieces larger than a person. Regarding the people, there were 346 on > board. Six were sucked out of airplane before the crash, when the > door flew off. 34 others were more or less in one piece. The others > were shredded into approximately 18,000 fragments. (P. Eddy, et al., > "Destination Disaster," NYT Books, p. 248) > > - Jed > > ------=_Part_31125_32361409.1171928474254 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so this then was a lot worse, as they said nothing larger than a phone book!

On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell < JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

>Show me a single plane crash where 1: There is nothing of any size
>left and not even a lot of what is left 2: Despite 1, there is a
>hole in the ground.

I will show you two, both well known and well documented:

1. The second Lockheed Electra crash, 1960, which produced a hole
with nothing but fragments in it.

2. The DC10 crash in 1974, in France. Lots of small fragments,
characteristic of a high-speed impact. Quote: "I have seen many
aircraft impacts. I have seen some aircraft torn up as much as this
one, but I must say I have never seen any airplane torn up as much as
this over such a large area. The pieces were extremely small, very
fragmented, and it was scattered over an area half a mile long by 120
yards or so wide." Charles Miller, Director of Aviation Safety, NTSB.
Photos bear this out. It looks like a large pile of junk with few
pieces larger than a person. Regarding the people, there were 346 on
board. Six were sucked out of airplane before the crash, when the
door flew off. 34 others were more or less in one piece. The others
were shredded into approximately 18,000 fragments. (P. Eddy, et al.,
"Destination Disaster," NYT Books, p. 248)

- Jed


------=_Part_31125_32361409.1171928474254-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:43:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JNhmhf027605; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:43:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JNhksA027592; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:43:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:43:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219183220.037e2258@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:43:04 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >CDI also does forensic investigations of accidental explosions. The >chances that anyone could fool them while destroying the Twin Towers >are probably zero to five significant places. Note that CDI experts were on site within hours, and they were a "key player in the expedient removal and recycling of the steel." They submitted a 25-page preliminary plan to the city on September 22, 2001. The notion that you could simply pull the wool over these people's eyes is part and parcel of Steve Jones' crazy ideas about cold fusion. He thinks that although the CDI people are world's top experts and they have collectively hundreds of years of experience destroying buildings, they magically failed to notice the cut beams, wires, and other obvious evidence of a controlled demolition. (As I said, you have to cut the beams ahead of time; it would take gigantic explosions to do it alone.) Along exactly the same lines, Jones thinks that even though Fleischmann, Bockris, Pons and the 200+ others world class experts have hundreds of years of collective experience, they somehow did not notice recombination or they cannot do calorimetry. That's like suggesting that a world class classical pianist cannot read music or does not know what "middle-C" refers to. Jones, Park and the conspiracy theory nut cases not only have no respect for authority -- they have no earthly clue what "authority" or "expertise" means. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:55:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1JNtJPp003024; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:55:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1JNtJLr003015; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:55:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:55:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=YIHpxe2oMmJEXSgWNpglVvo/cDcyeu75luR7yMDTcR1SRqiiQB9LnSsI++bp0TlgpX4OoQJA9CG6CgQEi4JzQXLqpPDOtvQFY+hGxgizkQRVTOHFyTRdXtbuJ4yo359qk94+PgpSL1FD1kFgHCUU2CLX0Wjo4aZ5JtL0HWQN5To= ; X-YMail-OSG: .dCb_.kVM1mPL50PskXqIPtXwg8nBJ6qTkl6TFfjrH6OIcZrdsowig8u7hyh8By1baPiKDVpOU58J7ZlcWUh9fSN50L3R3Igi_8BEPt5rRHxp8.3SVnt Message-ID: <45DA38E1.8090908@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:55:13 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Status: O X-Status: Site worth reviewing wrt WTC7. Makes a prima facie case for more thorough investigation of the possibility that WTC7 had been pre-rigged to be brought down: http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/b7/introduction.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:16:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K0GBqD012616; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:16:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K0GAvM012606; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:16:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:16:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219184515.03763278@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:15:51 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_37165640==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3HFK6B.A.2ED.K3j2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_37165640==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Berry wrote: >Ok, then explain. Why did they get rid of the bomb sniffing dogs >after the mysterious powerdown? No one can explain every damn urban myth that pops out the minds of confused people. You should explain to me why Toyota runs their factory fork lifts on cold fusion, yet they refuse to sell it to the world. I will tell you the answer to the latter: They have no such fork lifts. Toyota never developed cold fusion. They abandoned the research and kicked out Fleischmann and Pons, then for good measure they broke into Fleischmann's house and stole his information. Does that mean there is a lurid conspiracy to suppress cold fusion? Is this not an example of your worst conspiracy-theory come to life? No, this is just plain ordinary garden-variety stupidity. I have met the decision makers at Toyota and in the Japanese government who did this. Martin Fleischmann is well acquainted with them and I discussed the matter with him and others over many hours. I know what these leaders say, and what they are thinking. They think that cold fusion does not exist. They put more stock in idiotic statements by Time magazine reporters than in scientific evidence produced by their own researchers. These are profoundly stupid and dysfunctional people but unfortunately such people are often in charge of large, influential organizations, such as governments and major corporations. That is the usual reason why terrible things happen -- not because of arcane conspiracies, or smart people plotting, but because people are often catastrophically stupid and incompetent. And also small-minded and malicious, and when you combine stupidity with maliciousness, disaster awaits. Read the book "The March of Folly" for details. That may sound less romantic and exciting than the notion that people are engaged in some kind of arcane thriller novel-style conspiracy, but it is how life really works. If you want another example, take the statements made yesterday in the Japanese Parliament by the Foreign Minister of Japan, Taro Aso, regarding the Korean sex slaves abducted by the Japanese army during World War II. On February 18, the U.S. House of Representatives condemned Japan for not admitting this horrible chapter of its own history, and for not apologizing to or compensating the victims. The Japanese government responded yesterday by saying that the events never occurred and the U.S. resolution is "extremely regrettable and definitely not based on objective facts." Since hundreds of the victims are still alive and hundreds of Japanese ex-soldiers have testified to the events, this as if the German foreign minister was to deny that the Holocaust occurred. Not only is this a grotesque and odious lie, it is bound to infuriate Korea, China and the other nations victimized by the Japanese in World War II. The Koreans feel roughly the way Americans would feel if the Japanese were to deny that the Bataan death March occurred. They claim the Korean women were volunteers, which is like saying: "Those happy-go-lucky Americans POWs were just out for a stroll! Ten thousand of them asked us to beat them, bayonet them, cut off their privates, and bury them alive! Such funny people . . ." Ask yourself: Why would the second most powerful official in a government stand up and make statements that are bound to infuriate neighboring countries, and which everyone knows are lies? What could motive him, other than the usual mix of racism, sexism and xenophobia? The answer is that Aso is a stupid fool. There is not more profound reason than that: he is a fool. Most racist xenophobes know better than to say things like this in public, but Aso did not think twice. Granted, he is pandering to own political base -- conservative, elderly Japanese men who think they should have won the war and Emperor is a God -- but he is the Foreign Minister for crying out loud! He is supposed to have a modicum of diplomacy. - Jed --=====================_37165640==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Berry wrote:

Ok, then  explain. Why d= id they get rid of the bomb sniffing dogs after the mysterious powerdown?

No one can explain every damn urban myth that pops out the minds of confused people. You should explain to me why Toyota runs their factory fork lifts on cold fusion, yet they refuse to sell it to the world.

I will tell you the answer to the latter: They have no such fork lifts. Toyota never developed cold fusion. They abandoned the research and kicked out Fleischmann and Pons, then for good measure they broke into Fleischmann's house and stole his information. Does that mean there is a lurid conspiracy to suppress cold fusion? Is this not an example of your worst conspiracy-theory come to life?

No, this is just plain ordinary garden-variety stupidity. I have met the decision makers at Toyota and in the Japanese government who did this. Martin Fleischmann is well acquainted with them and I discussed the matter with him and others over many hours. I know what these leaders say, and what they are thinking. They think that cold fusion does not exist. They put more stock in idiotic statements by Time magazine reporters than in scientific evidence produced by their own researchers. These are profoundly stupid and dysfunctional people but unfortunately such people are often in charge of large, influential organizations, such as governments and major corporations. That is the usual reason why terrible things happen -- not because of arcane conspiracies, or smart people plotting, but because people are often catastrophically stupid and incompetent. And also small-minded and malicious, and when you combine stupidity with maliciousness, disaster awaits. Read the book "The March of Folly" for details. That may sound less romantic and exciting than the notion that people are engaged in some kind of arcane thriller novel-style conspiracy, but it is how life really works.

If you want another example, take the statements made yesterday in the Japanese Parliament by the Foreign Minister of Japan, Taro Aso, regarding the Korean sex slaves abducted by the Japanese army during World War II. On February 18, the U.S. House of Representatives condemned Japan for not admitting this horrible chapter of its own history, and for not apologizing to or compensating the victims. The Japanese government responded yesterday by saying that the events never occurred and the U.S. resolution is "extremely regrettable and definitely not based on objective facts." Since hundreds of the victims are still alive and hundreds of Japanese ex-soldiers have testified to the events, this as if the German foreign minister was to deny that the Holocaust occurred. Not only is this a grotesque and odious lie, it is bound to infuriate Korea, China and the other nations victimized by the Japanese in World War II. The Koreans feel roughly the way Americans would feel if the Japanese were to deny that the Bataan death March occurred. They claim the Korean women were volunteers, which is like saying: "Those happy-go-lucky Americans POWs were just out for a stroll! Ten thousand of them asked us to beat them, bayonet them, cut off their privates, and bury them alive! Such funny people . . ."

Ask yourself: Why would the second most powerful official in a government stand up and make statements that are bound to infuriate neighboring countries, and which everyone knows are lies? What could motive him, other than the usual mix of racism, sexism and xenophobia? The answer is that Aso is a stupid fool. There is not more profound reason than that: he is a fool. Most racist xenophobes know better than to say things like this in public, but Aso did not think twice. Granted, he is pandering to own political base -- conservative, elderly Japanese men who think they should have won the war and Emperor is a God -- but he is the Foreign Minister for crying out loud! He is supposed to have a modicum of diplomacy.

- Jed
--=====================_37165640==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:19:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K0J0Ar013168; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:19:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K0IxED013153; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:18:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:18:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=PB1Jo7mF2CguGAQUwwb2BQkjlI0GFt6qYRkM4LQUHD7IU0dKA7+AQJzqFCkkK6r8BiJpd+8ChLJGNjr+ms1t++caM85XuOr0D5wsW/H1BYiV5H7m+YRTtahhjHMK4lCapfQCZx3hY3Hj0ZiH0KARu0o6hgN7zr54dfz1iQZCts0= ; X-YMail-OSG: R7HPfmgVM1nasnYqNBsr3fLGdMPkddXWc46.0rgwgEoaGNsHJH5bvyYw.wj0RTpzKMKlPQ0tp.mUZKXrpbXwOPNF2ieygoPIlmlxBJ7lWcUe59QPNa7uDJbZVMgNG3603.EttVNDJxzZ_w-- Message-ID: <45DA3E6E.50009@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:18:54 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219183220.037e2258@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219183220.037e2258@mindspring.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000500090001090304070200" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000500090001090304070200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Test to see if this image shows up on Vo. 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Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:26:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <45DA38E1.8090908@pacbell.net> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> <45DA38E1.8090908@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8DIj-.A.RNE.EBk2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Makes a prima facie case for more thorough investigation of the >possibility that WTC7 had been pre-rigged to be brought down: You mean: the building was gutted over several weeks prior to 9/11, all of the heavy objects were removed, the main beams were cut, and hundreds of pounds of explosives were put into the building, but nobody noticed. That's what you mean. It is physically impossible to "pre-rig" a building to collapse, otherwise. You would have to trigger a massive explosion that would also destroy much of the surroundings, like what happened when bombs fell on buildings during World War II. Or you would have to ignite hundreds of gallons of the most energy intense chemical -- petroleum. Buildings collapse from smaller fires all the time, including steel frame buildings. If you "pre-rigged" with such a small amount of explosives no one even heard the bang, there is no chance that would be sufficient to make an intact building collapse. Buildings are way stronger than that. Conventional explosives have little energy compared to petroleum fuel, flour, dust, and other sources of large explosions that often destroy buildings. For that matter, when the CDI brings down a building, even though they use the smallest amount of explosives they can, the noise of the explosions is quite loud, and unmistakable. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:32:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K0WMfo021416; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:32:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K0WKhc021407; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:32:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:32:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <192201c7544c$47d15fa0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:34:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1K0WJvf021387 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Iron fertilizing, microalgae harvesting and oil extracting ship concept Status: O X-Status: It struck me that it would be nice to extract the oil from the microalgae while they are still in aqueous suspension. There might be a way to achieve this, while at the same time doing away with the need for a fine mesh net or filter, kindly (or unkindly ;-) reality-check me as usual: While going over the previously fertilized bloom area, pump in the microalgae laden surface water (the pump inlet could be a transversal perforated tube towed by the ship), make it go through tightly adjusted rollers or other device able to break the algae cell walls (mixer, ultrasounds?), centrifuge the output to separate the less dense oil from the rest of the soup (by making it flow fast enough through a long enough serpentining flat tubing?), and dump the latter back on the ocean surface somewhere at the rear of the pump inlet. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > One big point in favor of the factory ships implementation: immediate recycling of the nutrients (including recovery of a sizeable proportion of the iron which will have been dispensed), which probably find themselves concentrated in the press cake after the oil has been pressed out of the microalgae. This is assuming the oil itself keeps only a negligible proportion of the nutrients, is this correct? > > If we return the press cake to the ocean surface as we go, the nutrients are ready to be re-used almost immediately: all we will have removed is renewable stuff: CO2 from the atmosphere, photosynthesis energy from the sun, and maybe some water, which makes the process sustainable even on a large scale IMHO. > > Michel (a repented whale hunter ;-) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC > > >>I forgot to mention, the process should be repeated on the move in open sea rather than e.g. in a bay, so that each iteration occurs at a place where dissolved CO2 and nutrients have not been recently depleted by the previous runs (it takes time for those resources to be restored) >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:02 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC >> >> >>> We are all in-seine aren't we, this is Vortex after all :) >>> >>> In any case I think we all agree on the function to be implemented: >>> >>> Local iron fertilization of the ocean surface > On the fly harvesting of the algae bloom > Conversion to oil and possibly charcoal >>> >>> The rest is mere implementation details, cost will decide, we should rule out no particular technical solution at this point (not even the whales Nick ;-) >>> >>> Can you do the cost analysis for the factory ships implementation you describe below Fred? >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Frederick Sparber" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:20 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC >>> >>>> Sounds to me like Michel (Dave's Gender I. D. Problem) is acting out >>>> Arthur Dent's worst nightmare. >>>> I posted Michel an algae-confinement-fine mesh-floated-seine idea the other >>>> day, but >>>> living near the Seine I guess he thinks I'm in-seine. :-) >>>> The seas should contain adequate nutrients that can diffuse into the seines >>>> that >>>> can be tens of meters wide and thousands of meters long. The iron powder >>>> can be retained in the seine, with barges that reel it in and through for >>>> harvesting >>>> and iron replenishment. >>>> A whale of a lot better than torturing a declining population of whales. >>>> >>>> Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:44:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K0iGDk028737; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:44:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K0iFIU028717; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:44:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:44:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=mityzUQd5dDkbSnfIxsWdHw8wgEsFVvsTuGMCdHbQlEXfZDNwVXd1xTuyQKcQh1eo7XAQlGAQ2MJDUwlU26wRxPCXUkfdpzb0Tcn9MxRqbUgkZ/jt6R10GmCReWughEsm4RxkTE7s652cqVAW3SQ9Crer4uzASxkrfMRJZmgkFk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:44:14 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219184515.03763278@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31793_31698585.1171932254635" References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219184515.03763278@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_31793_31698585.1171932254635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > Ok, then explain. Why did they get rid of the bomb sniffing dogs after > the mysterious powerdown? > > > No one can explain every damn urban myth > Amazing. By saying this documented fact is an urban myth, you utterly demolished it. It just took applying this tag. No need for intelligent debate if you can say 'urban myth'. Cold Fusion? No one can explain every damn urban myth! Hey, it works! No, wait, let's look at the last part, 'no one can explain'. hmm, well if you start this with the pretext that it isn't even conceivable that the Government did it I agree. But if you keep that possibility and don't rule it out due to emotionalism it is very well explained. that pops out the minds of confused people. > They are confused because they are willing to consider the possibility (it is a possibility is it not?) that members in the Government pulled off 911? It seems you that are confused as you simply can't explain this fact, only hope that people will dismiss it by saying 'Urban Myth' You should explain to me why Toyota runs their factory fork lifts on cold > fusion, yet they refuse to sell it to the world. > I think must be joking? If not then besides the fact that it's just not ready for release, how about oil companies, do you not believe they killed the electric car? I will tell you the answer to the latter: They have no such fork lifts. > And your point is? Toyota never developed cold fusion. They abandoned the research and kicked > out Fleischmann and Pons, then for good measure they broke into > Fleischmann's house and stole his information. Does that mean there is a > lurid conspiracy to suppress cold fusion? Is this not an example of your > worst conspiracy-theory come to life? > > No, this is just plain ordinary garden-variety stupidity. I have met the > decision makers at Toyota and in the Japanese government who did this. > Martin Fleischmann is well acquainted with them and I discussed the matter > with him and others over many hours. I know what these leaders say, and what > they are thinking. They think that cold fusion does not exist. They put more > stock in idiotic statements by Time magazine reporters than in scientific > evidence produced by their own researchers. These are profoundly stupid and > dysfunctional people but unfortunately such people are often in charge of > large, influential organizations, such as governments and major > corporations. That is the usual reason why terrible things happen -- not > because of arcane conspiracies, or smart people plotting, but *because > people are often catastrophically stupid and incompetent.* And also > small-minded and malicious, and when you combine stupidity with > maliciousness, disaster awaits. Read the book "The March of Folly" for > details. That may sound less romantic and exciting than the notion that > people are engaged in some kind of arcane thriller novel-style conspiracy, > but it is how life really works. > No doubt what you are saying is true in part. But are you saying that these people don't do evil things? Are you seriously saying that? Back to the point. There are multiple anomalies and you can't begin to answer them, here have another try. Why is a distinct flash seen just before the planes hit each building, and all videos? All you can do is ignore, because it just can't be true! Here is a simple question as i know you can't answer the one above. What would it take for you to accept that 911 was an inside job? ------=_Part_31793_31698585.1171932254635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

Ok, then  explain. Why did they get rid of the bomb sniffing dogs after the mysterious powerdown?

No one can explain every damn urban myth

Amazing.
By saying this documented fact is an urban myth, you utterly demolished it.
It just took applying this tag.
No need for intelligent debate if you can say 'urban myth'.

Cold Fusion?  No one can explain every damn urban myth!
Hey, it works!

No, wait, let's look at the last part, 'no one can explain'.
hmm, well if you start this with the pretext that it isn't even conceivable that the Government did it I agree.
But if you keep that possibility and don't rule it out due to emotionalism it is very well explained.

that pops out the minds of confused people.

They are confused because they are willing to consider the possibility (it is a possibility is it not?) that members in the Government pulled off 911?

It seems you that are confused as you simply can't explain this fact, only hope that people will dismiss it by saying 'Urban Myth'

You should explain to me why Toyota runs their factory fork lifts on cold fusion, yet they refuse to sell it to the world.

I think must be joking?
If not then besides the fact that it's just not ready for release, how about oil companies, do you not believe they killed the electric car?

I will tell you the answer to the latter: They have no such fork lifts.

And your point is?

Toyota never developed cold fusion. They abandoned the research and kicked out Fleischmann and Pons, then for good measure they broke into Fleischmann's house and stole his information. Does that mean there is a lurid conspiracy to suppress cold fusion? Is this not an example of your worst conspiracy-theory come to life?

No, this is just plain ordinary garden-variety stupidity. I have met the decision makers at Toyota and in the Japanese government who did this. Martin Fleischmann is well acquainted with them and I discussed the matter with him and others over many hours. I know what these leaders say, and what they are thinking. They think that cold fusion does not exist. They put more stock in idiotic statements by Time magazine reporters than in scientific evidence produced by their own researchers. These are profoundly stupid and dysfunctional people but unfortunately such people are often in charge of large, influential organizations, such as governments and major corporations. That is the usual reason why terrible things happen -- not because of arcane conspiracies, or smart people plotting, but because people are often catastrophically stupid and incompetent. And also small-minded and malicious, and when you combine stupidity with maliciousness, disaster awaits. Read the book "The March of Folly" for details. That may sound less romantic and exciting than the notion that people are engaged in some kind of arcane thriller novel-style conspiracy, but it is how life really works.

No doubt what you are saying is true in part.
But are you saying that these people don't do evil things?

Are you seriously saying that?

Back to the point.

There are multiple anomalies and you can't begin to answer them, here have another try.

Why is a distinct flash seen just before the planes hit each building, and all videos?

All you can do is ignore, because it just can't be true!

Here is a simple question as i know you can't answer the one above.

What would it take for you to accept that 911 was an inside job?


------=_Part_31793_31698585.1171932254635-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:00:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K0xE0f009368; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:59:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K0wTxh008876; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:58:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:58:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:54:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: <45DA3E6E.50009@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1S0ndC.A.kKC.0ek2FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Test to see if this image shows up on Vo. > > One of the photos which Fox removed from their official site, but not > before others had saved it. > Perhaps it is a water pipe bursting from vibrations caused by the upper structure collapsing onto the lower structure. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:07:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K163ml016636; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:06:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K14g7Q013884; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:04:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:04:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GhwNy68PDUDDPmX6ItyhJtfqIFZqMpeGqUjkcY67SlYWu0znKYXVmyj3Of1xfa9o0tgwA/7ZhXikGwDixOJJjEXleNnAJodOcyNRipxXjT373vOuEMruF4lXP6OkWmlXgeuZbeiNEZde+noMsOwckR2K9YNQ/jZDZ0IWXnM46nQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: 1IUXET8VM1mkuyPAVD_l3bEgVuGsNXYK9dnChHd3a3EhJ44bsHbSFOPgqE2tRrpGQExbe2ll0kEo4fznFl.W_9_a.iDuUVlmKJcX4aFZnJq_HBON3DaZ8Yn5gJaXBG7cDeXWoTJ_aAZrBcY- Message-ID: <45DA4922.5040101@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:04:34 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> <45DA38E1.8090908@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219191641.037ecd70@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219191641.037ecd70@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > You mean: the building was gutted over several weeks prior to 9/11, all > of the heavy objects were removed, the main beams were cut, and hundreds > of pounds of explosives were put into the building, but nobody noticed. I thought you at least had a rudimentary understanding of how this was done. There are several steps involved and the steps do not have to be done at the same time. Thermite itself is not in any way an explosive, and is safer to store than many things stored in office buildings, including paper. It generally requires TNT to ignite, (or perhaps a jumbo jet) and if the steel pillars are box-type with open space, as was the case at WTC7 - then thermite can be poured into the open pillars long before any beams are cut, and this can be done over extended time periods - long before any explosives are attached. This could have been done years in advance, with no disruption. Wiring for the charges could have been done at any time without disruption. Main beams are usually cut immediately prior to the "pull" but do not, of necessity, have to be cut at all - in order to get the clean fall. Look - almost every demolition engineer in the World has weighed-in on this exact possibility already - and they have had their say recorded on the net - but there is no consensus. Some say it is possible - others disagree. The dividing line often revolves around who is paying their bill, or who they voted for. BTW, it is clear that many of the valuables which had been stored in WTC7, including much of the gold had already been removed. Why? if they did not know that a legitimate demolition had been planned. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html And what about the other anomalies which indicate pre-knowledge? Have you even looked at these - or are you doing the typical Park-routine of see-no-evil :: believe-no-evil? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:11:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K1ACBA022486; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:10:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K18p6v019359; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:08:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:08:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ujfMwuHD66YsBzgf7E9v/RQMJ4m0m7vK4rXk5ZB0ARScnVa0n0cNMQIhS7vXZyL7VcgbPbJWCLLd0haahwFX5WSbHPhLLGwUjxcIgPkSZoc4tyeqIHYk4CXdhBNXFTsaE/CzRSryvpJyjyojM0EeBD72kaPa8hkTSlmjVq1D0Kk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:08:48 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219191641.037ecd70@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_32145_25497298.1171933728364" References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> <45DA38E1.8090908@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219191641.037ecd70@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_32145_25497298.1171933728364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Jones Beene wrote: > > >Makes a prima facie case for more thorough investigation of the > >possibility that WTC7 had been pre-rigged to be brought down: > > You mean: the building was gutted A building does not need to be guttel to be demolished. The evidence? The twin towers and building 7. over several weeks prior to 9/11, > all of the heavy objects were removed, the main beams were cut Some most likely were, there were lots of people working on it. , and > hundreds of pounds of explosives were put into the building Yes , but > nobody noticed. They did notice. They are saying how odd it was. Not looking is not the same as no one reporting it, you can't always wait for this stuff to hit fox Jed. That's what you mean. > > It is physically impossible to "pre-rig" a building to collapse, > otherwise. You would have to trigger a massive explosion that would > also destroy much of the surroundings And send beams into nearby buildings as happened with the WTC? That is exactly what happened. , like what happened when bombs > fell on buildings during World War II. Or you would have to ignite > hundreds of gallons of the most energy intense chemical -- petroleum. Yes, and the last people out would be burnt by the explosions. Buildings collapse from smaller fires all the time, including steel > frame buildings. Funny, you seem to be the only person that knows this. Please give something a little bit more solid because i have seen stuff about how buildings have been on fire and not far more violent that the mysterious fire if WTC 7. What was used to burn the buildings? How did their construction compare? If you "pre-rigged" with such a small amount of explosives no one > even heard the bang Except for the fireman saying they heard the bangs, but other than those that did no one. Plus people would see explosive ejections, like the explosive ejections that are plainly visible. see: http://www.serendipity.li/wtc5.htm But you won't will you, you clearly don't research the other side of this stuff because you have deemed it impossible from the outset. , there is no chance that would be sufficient to > make an intact building collapse. Funny, you go from saying that a building which had supports cut would just collapse on it's own, to the claim that explosives couldn't takje out the supports. There is no middle ground? weaken the supports enough to leave them vulnerable to the explosive charges. Buildings are way stronger than > that. And yet weak enough to collpase due to fire, and so weak they they will readily pancake at freefall speeds! Meaning No Resistance! Conventional explosives have little energy compared to > petroleum fuel, flour, dust, and other sources of large explosions > that often destroy buildings. > > For that matter, when the CDI brings down a building, even though > they use the smallest amount of explosives they can, the noise of the > explosions is quite loud, and unmistakable. Explosions were heard. Seen. Burnt people. And there is plenty of shrapnel (metal and bone) that has never occurred with building deliberately imploded. Also look at WTC 7, you can see the crim as the central support column has been turned to dust it implodes in. To be honest there is far far more evidence but what is the point, you are simply not open to this regardless of the evidence. ------=_Part_32145_25497298.1171933728364 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Jones Beene wrote:

>Makes a prima facie case for more thorough investigation of the
>possibility that WTC7 had been pre-rigged to be brought down:

You mean: the building was gutted

A building does not need to be guttel to be demolished.
The evidence? The twin towers and building 7.

over several weeks prior to 9/11,
all of the heavy objects were removed, the main beams were cut

Some most likely were, there were lots of people working on it.

, and
hundreds of pounds of explosives were put into the building

Yes

, but
nobody noticed.

They did notice.
They are saying how odd it was.
Not looking is not the same as no one reporting it, you can't always wait for this stuff to hit fox Jed.

That's what you mean.

It is physically impossible to "pre-rig" a building to collapse,
otherwise. You would have to trigger a massive explosion that would
also destroy much of the surroundings

And send beams  into nearby buildings as happened with the WTC?
That is exactly what happened.

, like what happened when bombs
fell on buildings during World War II. Or you would have to ignite
hundreds of gallons of the most energy intense chemical -- petroleum.

Yes, and the last people out would be burnt by the explosions.

Buildings collapse from smaller fires all the time, including steel
frame buildings.

Funny, you seem to be the only person that knows this.
Please give something a little bit more solid because i have seen stuff about how buildings have been on fire and not  far more violent that the mysterious fire if WTC 7.
What was used to burn the buildings? How did their construction compare?

If you "pre-rigged" with such a small amount of explosives no one
even heard the bang

Except for the fireman saying they heard the bangs, but other than those that did no one.
Plus people would see explosive ejections, like the explosive ejections that are plainly visible.
see: http://www.serendipity.li/wtc5.htm
But you won't will you, you clearly don't research the other side of this stuff because you have deemed it impossible from the outset.

, there is no chance that would be sufficient to
make an intact building collapse.

Funny, you go from saying that a building which had supports cut would just collapse on it's own, to the claim that explosives couldn't takje out the supports.
There is no middle ground? weaken the supports enough to leave them vulnerable to the explosive charges.

Buildings are way stronger than
that.

And yet weak enough to collpase due to fire, and so weak they they will readily pancake at freefall speeds!
Meaning No Resistance!

Conventional explosives have little energy compared to
petroleum fuel, flour, dust, and other sources of large explosions
that often destroy buildings.

For that matter, when the CDI brings down a building, even though
they use the smallest amount of explosives they can, the noise of the
explosions is quite loud, and unmistakable.

Explosions were heard.
Seen.
Burnt people.
And there is plenty of shrapnel (metal and bone) that has never occurred with building deliberately imploded.

Also look at WTC 7, you can see the crim as the central support column has been turned to dust it implodes in.

To be honest there is far far more evidence but what is the point, you are simply not open to this regardless of the evidence.

------=_Part_32145_25497298.1171933728364-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:12:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K1CR5P010344; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:12:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K1CQW0010323; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:12:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=leUO5qJiZII3nTPZNEjNovg4VO+WEeKpovXZFbazrVoPx8d3ixCKR0ODMUS3oGBbd5F0z1rECM6CddOaa70nagHX5HGUDVA6K6VlYsfCH925ZHDlu236mnFxAagyvIySJqT+N/x+Kxwx5wJnEVIJ8bSwE+0o5rpWG8U8ZcpDqT0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:12:24 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_32177_7342568.1171933944852" References: <45DA3E6E.50009@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_32177_7342568.1171933944852 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wow, must have been a great place for showers, look at the water pressure! On 2/20/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Test to see if this image shows up on Vo. > > > > One of the photos which Fox removed from their official site, but not > > before others had saved it. > > > > > > Perhaps it is a water pipe bursting from vibrations > caused by the upper structure collapsing onto the lower structure. > > Harry > > ------=_Part_32177_7342568.1171933944852 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wow, must have been a great place for showers, look at the water pressure!

On 2/20/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca > wrote:
Jones Beene wrote:

> Test to see if this image shows up on Vo.
>
> One of the photos which Fox removed from their official site, but not
> before others had saved it.
>



Perhaps it is a water pipe bursting from vibrations
caused by the upper structure collapsing onto the lower structure.

Harry


------=_Part_32177_7342568.1171933944852-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:35:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K1ZtwI025168; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:35:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K1ZsV8025161; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:35:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:35:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dzgqjpeNlEE3b/87VhNblgKrqBptUPU9+o3vvVuaK7ey4q+vo1zIEFIwk2GuPkmS0VmihEVuKf3GFkKh0P95Qad1EMpZJSuh/iFrpOAGgBoSUEACrEwO+5/VSipVS2Y+2BKOqR30+BFlQo8YgLFexri1Mg4s7vdzUniGyPRohL4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:35:53 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_32497_24292638.1171935353029" References: <45DA3E6E.50009@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_32497_24292638.1171935353029 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Go here: http://thewebfairy.com/911/demolition/controlled.htm Not only is it clear it's not water, but look at WTC7 footage You can see synched explosions just before it falls. And in this case they can't be compression waves or anything. On 2/20/07, John Berry wrote: > > Wow, must have been a great place for showers, look at the water pressure! > > On 2/20/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > Test to see if this image shows up on Vo. > > > > > > One of the photos which Fox removed from their official site, but not > > > before others had saved it. > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it is a water pipe bursting from vibrations > > caused by the upper structure collapsing onto the lower structure. > > > > Harry > > > > > ------=_Part_32497_24292638.1171935353029 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Go here:
http://thewebfairy.com/911/demolition/controlled.htm

Not only is it clear it's not water, but look at WTC7 footage
You can see synched explosions just before it falls.

And in this case they can't be compression waves or anything.

On 2/20/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com > wrote:
Wow, must have been a great place for showers, look at the water pressure!


On 2/20/07, Harry Veeder < eo200@freenet.carleton.ca > wrote:
Jones Beene wrote:

> Test to see if this image shows up on Vo.
>
> One of the photos which Fox removed from their official site, but not
> before others had saved it.
>



Perhaps it is a water pipe bursting from vibrations
caused by the upper structure collapsing onto the lower structure.

Harry



------=_Part_32497_24292638.1171935353029-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:36:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K1aTIw025413; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:36:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K1aQUB025374; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:36:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:36:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1f5001c7548a$bf50c4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:01:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1K1aO5H025323 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifter aerodynamics Status: O X-Status: I agree that the lifter's ion [induced] wind adds to the aerodynamic drag during ascent (I think that's what you're saying, note you could say the same of a helicopter's propeller induced wind) Anyway in the case of the lifter this wind is relatively slow (of the order of 1 m/s, about 100 times slower than the entraining ions which are not very good "paddles" and not very numerous), and the profile is usually quite aerodynamic, so the corresponding drag is quite small. This means that in practice the thrust needed for takeoff isn't much more than the device's weight. Example (Blazelabs 100g payload lifter): total weight of lifter + payload = 187gf, let's see what current is needed for a thrust of 187gf. The gap being 92mm, by applying the EHD thrust formula: thrust in gf = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm we find that we need a current of 4.1mA (187/(0.5*92)). In practice Xavier found that the lifter almost took off at 4.2mA, and definitely flew and tensed its tethers at 4.4mA: http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp14.asp (do watch the video) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:54 PM Subject: [Vo]: Lifter aerodynamics > An "ion-wind" may produce enough force to let the lifter hover, but can > it produce enough force to let the lifter (and its expanded > electro-aeordynamic profile) _ascend_ through the air? > > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 17:58:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K1wBnv002921; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:58:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K1wAie002914; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:58:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:58:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3iRQifP4DZs6bsaBrFraB6+KYz71bs7PDk042N+URvMvFYjSqisxG1BrCNdlCPMR73WfOwgqt+LZc0AM2s38qJw3yNqtWtV6kVLd9t2dvpLHTlnlv0f03b8LueAoiphxtpAdj5aDc2Tkj04TnOTJ71p7UDprBDunqSHaxwFB27E= ; X-YMail-OSG: NjwKPeAVM1lNIOr0TqH49UYY91OD82LDI8yQPHg5P95LPrjd_EeC.u6rCaKrlylNXp1v_a3InWocv99TY01ol3heQ5lgykzh4Fi65QZs3JeL6TTmKSOIeO2tJPPLTn86sUzouNiowNKenow- Message-ID: <45DA55AF.9040008@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:58:07 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45DA3E6E.50009@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72994 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Synced explosions Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Go here: > http://thewebfairy.com/911/demolition/controlled.htm Yes ! This is ABSOLUTELY clear in the 5th video - the one marked "Building 7 too" that these are synced charges going off near the corner... ... or else NYC has one hell of a lot of water pressure Which reminds me of the Seinfeld episode of Cosmo Kramer and his shower restrictors... Kramer didn't like the new law requiring low-pressure showerheads - so he found a one that was made to wash horses. Probably the same brand as the ones that miraculously went-off in precise sequence during this WTC non-demolition event From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 18:22:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K2MVOS014969; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:22:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K2MRln014944; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:22:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:22:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c75495$f43eb8c0$0edf163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <00ec01c75297$a7085930$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:22:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters > Hi Kyle, > >> Classical spacetime is not recognized as a medium, just some mathematics >> and tensors. > > And that means what? Do you really think the Universe is made out of > dimensionless math equations? No I do not. However, this is what the accepted view of General Relativity is. Whether or not I (or anyone else) agrees with that, is another matter entirely. >> It will probably be eventually recognized that there is a physical >> "something" to the vacuum, but what it is, I don't know, and I doubt >> anyone else knows for sure either. > > You are wrong about that, too. I have fully quantified exactly what the > "physical something" of the vacuum is. I have written a white paper on it > and delivered it before the PIRT 2006 conference in London last fall. I > have also written a book on the topic (Secrets of the Aether) and last > weekend presented the theory before a group of scientists in Memphis, > Tennessee. If you want to know what the vacuum is, just ask or read the > paper. You have to experimentally test any hypotheses. I do not regularly delve into theory, not as much as I used to anyways. I prefer to do the work on the bench and see what nature tries to tell me. In short, I feel that a good oscilloscope and some well tuned senses are superior to formulae and hypotheses. I don't know what PIRT is. What is it? > I am saying you can, and I am not alone. General Relativity also says you > can. General relativity is a mathematic framework with a lot of metaphysics wrapped around it. The equations are there, yes, but how they are interpreted is again another matter. Eddington had his own view of GR, without the same assumptions of space curvature as is accepted today. As far as I know, GR doesn't point directly at some form of reactionless drive. >> I am just saying it looks as if the "lifter" isn't >> pushing against anything but a normal dielectric medium of air or a >> liquid. > > I don't deny it looks that way to you. The physics of ion thrust are > valid, > but they are inapplicable to the lifter. Have you built a thruster > device? How are they inapplicable? > http://www.fw.hu/bmiklos2000/unipolar.htm I have seen it, haven't followed newelectrogravity for several months now, I got tired of it. What he has seems to be just a new and novel form of Lifter. Same effect, however. I worked on nearly the same thing he has a few years ago, and came within striking range of being wooed by the "effect". After careful investigation, I found that it was merely electric wind and an interaction with nearby air and objects. Properly shielded from wind, and the thing does not move. "Hermetically sealing" is not the same thing as just wrapping typing paper around the sides of something. Paper is also not a good insulator in moderate humidity. Many of the old "influence" machines took into account paper's conductivity, small though it is. >> I really have little else to say on this subject, I've done the >> experiments >> and found that, to my knowledge and experience, the Lifters do not >> produce >> anomalous, unconventional thrust. I have about a dozen other projects to >> work on which may be promising, but if I continue to waste time with >> things that I know don't work, I am not going to get anywhere. I posted >> my >> findings, and that is all. > > It is one thing to get a negative result, it is another thing to assume > you > have fully understood the result. I can't blame you for wanting to do > other > projects, however. There is not enough thrust in the lifters or thrusters > for me to continue with them at this time, either. All I know is, when properly shielded, the lifters and similar devices do not produce anomalous thrust. Not only I have found this, but many others, in particular, Xavier as Michel pointed out. But what we found is not really very romantic. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 18:23:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K2NZkM004024; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:23:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K2NXbe004016; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:23:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:23:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003501c75496$1c6754b0$0edf163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:23:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Lifters > > So the high voltage source is what drives the "pump" ? > Of course, it drives the Lifter, and the lifter is acting as a sort of "pump" or "fan". --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 18:57:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K2uxhQ028468; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:56:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K2uvos028452; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:56:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DA6364.3000103@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:56:36 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Chukanov update Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, Please visit my web-site: www.chukanovenergy.com There are posted photos of my quantum free energy generator ANLOTRON_I and new book. Best regards, Dr. Kiril Chukanov --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 19:34:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K3YJG3021129; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:34:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K3YDlm021103; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:34:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=jTEwmrtiGvVJMJ5Qkg4uUAOS1DdEq+OiRT0czu7PRv6K3R1G298sILziwAsUHyl2; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <16589548.1171942452950.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:34:12 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c0a18a47d036a6807b60c2be3a2b176441a036a86675380a6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1K3YCZv021079 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What evidence is good enough Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >> No one can explain every damn urban myth >> > >Amazing. >By saying this documented fact is an urban myth, you utterly demolished it. No, I do not try to explain things about which I know nothing, which appearently signify nothing. "The police took the dogs away," you say. Assuming it is true, I am sure they had good reasons. Or do you think the K-9 police, who do this professionally, would simply go away without a word because someone ordered them to? Can you imagine a cop saying, "there may be dead or dying people, but the supervisor said to go, so I'm going." It would never happen! They would raise hell. >I think must be joking? >If not then besides the fact that it's just not ready for release, how about >oil companies, do you not believe they killed the electric car? Of course they did. The evidence is overwhelming. I knew about that 20 years ago. Such things are impossible to cover up. Heck, they bragged about it in the newspapers. They said "consumers don't want them," and Bush's spokesman said that consuming oil is our god-given right. >But are you saying that these people don't do evil things? I am saying that when someone destroys a building with explosives, the physical evidence for that event is overwhelming. >Why is a distinct flash seen just before the planes hit each building, and >all videos? I wouldn't know but I assume it sunlight or a video anomaly. I am sure the forensics experts can tell you, and they would not keep it a secret if it were caused by a rocket or weapon. Every forensic expert in the world has seen those videos. Your question reminds me of the assertion made by Branch Davidians that someone in the helicopter shown in the video was shooting at them with a machine gun. The judge who investigated the event pointed that the helicopter door was closed, and obviously the flashes were sunlight. >Here is a simple question as i know you can't answer the one above. > >What would it take for you to accept that 911 was an inside job? That's easy. We should demand the same level of proof that cold fusion research has produced. Any expert who takes a serious look at the evidence should be 100% convinced. It should be sigma 100 like the heat, or 60 times background like the tritium was in 1990, and a million times background later on. The physical evidence should be convincing and any counter-argument should be as weak as the nonsense Robert Park or Steve Jones spout when they try to "disprove" cold fusion. And why should we demand such high levels of proof? Because if these events actually did transpire, they would leave a mountain of incontrovertable evidence! That's the whole point. Experts in building demolition with explosives would see it instantly. They would have found physical evidence of it all over the place after the fact. Plus, as I said, it would be physically impossible to use explosives in this manner without first gutting the building, which would take months. Someone would notice. If this were something very difficult to establish, such as a top quark or a sighting of a rare species of bird, then it would be reasonable to settle for a lower standard of evidence, perhaps even including these absurd urban myths. But there is no need to consider such things. Destroying a building with these techniques is long-established, well understood engineering, and the world's top experts in the technique were on the site within hours. They would have taken one glance at the video and the remains and they would have been instantly sure that it was an explosive demolition. These people have done thousands of demolitions, over 50 years for goodness sake! Also, these people are not shy or prone to keeping secrets, and they are used to working with the police. They would have called a press conference and told everyone -- right away. For that matter, if they had any reason to think today so they would call a press conference now. Until you hear from Mark, Stacey and Freddie Loizeaux that the Towers were brought down by explosives you can discount that possibility. They know roughly a thousand times more about that particular subject than Steve Jones does, just as Melvin Miles knows way more about recombination than Steve Jones does. Honestly, it is as if you wrote some scribble-scrabble on a piece of paper, and tried to pass it off as "Japanese writing" to me. I have been reading Japanese for decades and I know it when I see it. You could not fool me. Let me remind you that the experts who saw the planes hit knew instantly that the building would soon pancake straight down. It did not surprise any of them, and they knew the precise reasons why this would happen hours before the event occured. So why on earth do you think there is some alternative explanation that all of these experts overlooked?!? One that they were superbly qualified to recognize but they somehow missed? That's absurd. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 20:10:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K4Ag8v027644; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:10:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K4AfGT027633; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:10:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:10:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Fby2OpyPpYvyeiPjgh63yZ99FTSzTg0I2KANwyxsw4x6pKpuNPOD6Yc0Ukge+LtC; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <28932725.1171944640002.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:10:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c0a18a47d036a6807bfc22bdfbabfbe3a23d377298b03de2a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >A building does not need to be guttel to be demolished. >The evidence? The twin towers and building 7. So you say, but the people at Controlled Demolition say otherwise. I have read books and seen documentaries from them. They make a very good case for that, based on straightforward classical physics. So forgive me if I give them a little more credibility than I give you. They show that is physically impossible to make a building pancake down (implode) with a small amount of preplaced explosives without first weakening the structure. Your assertions to the contrary are not physics. Of course you can blow up an intact building with explosives alone, but you have to use tons of explosives, and the sound and physical effects from that are unmistakable. You can tell a mile away -- literally. The building does not pancake. The Controlled Demolition people use about a hundred times less than a bomb, as I recall. You can still hear it, but it is nowhere near as dramatic. >Yes > >, but >> nobody noticed. > > >They did notice. >They are saying how odd it was. Ah, you mean the people came to work every day for weeks before the event, and they took no notice of the fact that the furniture was gone and the elevators were torn out, and brawny men were using cutting torches to slice the main beams holding up the building? Those people were remarkably sanguine. All they said was "this is odd"? I doubt it! >Not looking is not the same as no one reporting it . . . Ah. Thousands of ordinary workers showed up in a large office building in New York for weeks, and men were gutting the buiding and cutting the supports. But no one reported it. Because New Yorkers are famous for not complaining when someone removes their furniture and drops tons of steel out the window and down the elevator shafts. They must have thought it was a renovation. >> It is physically impossible to "pre-rig" a building to collapse, >> otherwise. You would have to trigger a massive explosion that would >> also destroy much of the surroundings > > >And send beams into nearby buildings as happened with the WTC? >That is exactly what happened. But nobody noticed the sound of the explosion. Sure. >Buildings collapse from smaller fires all the time, including steel >> frame buildings. > > >Funny, you seem to be the only person that knows this. No it is common knowledge. That is why no expert engineer has joined the loony-tune conspiracy theory brigades. As I said, my father and his colleagues researched this in the 1960s at the National Bureau of Standards. Buildings collapse a lot later than they used to, and the Twin Towers held up a lot longer thanks to the Bureau (which now goes under a different name - National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST). >Please give something a little bit more solid because i have seen stuff >about how buildings have been on fire and not far more violent that the >mysterious fire if WTC 7. For something solid, I suggest you read any introductory book on engineering, or read what the Controlled Demolition Corp. has published. Stop reading garbage published by idiots like Jones, and see what the real experts have to say. Their case is convincing. >If you "pre-rigged" with such a small amount of explosives no one >> even heard the bang > > >Except for the fireman saying they heard the bangs, but other than those >that did no one. What a bomb does is not a "bang." It is KABOOM big enough to break your eardrums a good distance away, or instantly crush a fireman standing nearby. The explosives used by Controlled Demolition can be heard blocks away, and if they heard a video track of an explosive demolition they would recognize it instantly, the way a soldier can distingish between different weapons being fired. Of course there are banging noises when a building collapses in a fire. What would you expect? >Funny, you go from saying that a building which had supports cut would just >collapse on it's own, to the claim that explosives couldn't takje out the >supports. A massive explosion can, of course. A small explosion produces far less energy than the cutting torches used to cut the beams. >There is no middle ground? weaken the supports enough to leave them >vulnerable to the explosive charges. Yes, that is how they do it. >Buildings are way stronger than >> that. > > >And yet weak enough to collpase due to fire, and so weak they they will >readily pancake at freefall speeds! A fire released orders of magnitude more heat and energy than an explosive. Explosives are weak -- but rapid. Of course the building pancakes quickly. What would you expect? It is falling at 1 G and it is not being held back by a parachute. The weight of the falling material instantly breaks through the remaing support beams. It is like what happens when you fall out of a tree and hit a few light branches that are nowhere near strong enough to support you. They hardly slow you down. >Explosions were heard. >Seen. Noises were heard. If they had been explosions, the experts in explosions would have instantly identified them as such. They would know instantly what kind of explosive material it was, and how many pounds were used. As noted, these people have heard thousands of explosions in buildings. >Burnt people. Yes, there was a fire. >And there is plenty of shrapnel (metal and bone) that has never occurred >with building deliberately imploded. There was a large explosion when the airplanes hit. Perhaps you missed that. >To be honest there is far far more evidence but what is the point, you are >simply not open to this regardless of the evidence. I am not open to this because every expert in the world who knows anything about the subject is certain that he or she knows what happened and why it happened, and most of them knew it was going to happen hours beforehand. They present comprehensive physical proof of their claims. They show that explosives could not have been involved, and anyone familiar with explosive demolition can see their point. Why do you think you can second guess these people? Do you also think you know more about electrochemistry than Fleischmann? Especially, why do you think a certified dolt like Jones can second guess Controlled Demolition. His endorsement should be taken as the kiss of death -- if he says "there may be something to it" you can damn sure there isn't anything to it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 20:41:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K4f7ba023505; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:41:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K4f52J023486; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:41:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:41:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:37:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mechanical concerns in tall buildings from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_floor "Besides structural support and elevator management, the primary purpose of mechanical floors is heating, ventilation and air-conditioning, and other services. They contain electrical generators, chiller plants, water pumps, and so on. In particular, the problem of bringing and keeping water on the upper floors is an important constraint in the design of skyscrapers. Water is necessary for tenant use, air conditioning, equipment cooling, and basic firefighting through sprinklers (especially important since ground-based firefighting equipment usually cannot reach higher than a dozen floors or so). It is inefficient, and seldom feasible, for water pumps to send water directly to a height of several hundred meters, so intermediate pumps and water tanks are used. The pumps on each group of mechanical floors acts as a relay to the next one up, while the tanks hold water in reserve for normal and emergency use. Usually the pumps have enough power to bypass a level if the pumps there have failed, and send water two levels up. Special care must be taken towards fire safety on mechanical floors that contain generators, compressors and elevator machine rooms, since oil is used as either a fuel or lubricant in those elements. Mechanical floors also contain communication and control systems that service the building and sometimes outbound communications, such as through a large rooftop antenna (which is also physically held in place inside the top-floor mechanical levels). Modern computerized HVAC control systems minimize the problem of equipment distribution among floors, by enabling central remote control." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 21:00:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K50DMk003897; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:00:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K50CZo003882; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:00:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:56:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-reply-to: <28932725.1171944640002.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > So you say, but the people at Controlled Demolition say otherwise. I have read > books and seen documentaries from them. They make a very good case for that, > based on straightforward classical physics. So forgive me if I give them a > little more credibility than I give you. They show that is physically > impossible to make a building pancake down (implode) with a small amount of > preplaced explosives without first weakening the structure. Your assertions to > the contrary are not physics. I suspect the WTC towers were designed with a structural weakness to make any future demolition easy. Modern buildings like many other modern devices follow the design philosophy of make-it-disposable. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 21:07:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K57GYN009328; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:07:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K57FiD009321; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:07:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:07:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DA81FD.6010705@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 00:07:09 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Do you mean they bought 115,000 puts on American on 9/10 > > Yes. The day before. > > or 115,000 shares on 9/10 (which is what you wrote)? > > No, there was absolutely no hedge ! It was a straight short-sell from > the reports which have appeared in print, and they are not contradicted > AFAIK. That is what had immediately raised the suspicion of the SEC on > 9/12, before the White House had a talk with them. Thanks; it wasn't clear in the original note. A minor nit: Buying puts is not the same as selling short. Puts are options, which, like all options, can be sold again, up to their expiration date. In this modern era, option prices sort of more-or-less follow the Black-Sholes model and buying them isn't quite the shot in the dark that it used to be. And in any case the risk is bounded by the option price. A single option is the right to sell (for a put) or buy (for a call) 100 shares of stock at a particular price, IIRC. The value of the option depends on the current sale price of the stock and how far away the expiration date is. 115,000 puts would presumably carry the right to sell 11,500,000 shares of American stock, which sounds kind of excessive...? Come to think of it, I would not have expected there to be that many puts available for purchase. (You can't buy an option unless someone else "writes" it first, and the supply of puts on any particular stock is distinctly finite -- options are typically far less liquid than shares of stock.) Selling short, on the other hand, is done by actually borrowing shares of stock and selling them, after which one is obligated to eventually buy the stock in order to return the borrowed shares. Short selling has costs associated with it which make it somewhat hard to make money on it, and it generally carries more risk than buying puts (of course, you can use margin to increase the risk of pretty much any investment to the point where it's unacceptable). But you can short pretty much anything, as it doesn't require anyone else's cooperation (a broker generally handles finding a lender, and in fact the lender isn't event consulted about the transaction, nor even typically aware of it). > > Needless to say, there is no way to verify these details as true or not. I don't understand. Where did the details originally come from? I thought you said in an earlier message that it was a freedom of information act filing, which should certainly produce a verifiable record of some sort. > Had the 9/11 commission been truly independent and adversarial - as was > Kenneth Starr for instance- then yes, we could trust more of what they > said ... and be able to discover who actually placed the beyond-risky > short sell trade - as this is a huge gamble that NO institutional trader > would ever dare to make - with the money of others and WITHOUT the hedge > in palce to limit the downside loss. What institutions are you thinking of? The ones I'm aware of have things called by the totally inappropriate name of "hedge funds" which are in the business of making risky trades. There's an enormous amount of money in so-called hedge funds, and the rule for those funds is that there are no rules -- the manager can choose whatever vehicle suits his or her fancy, frequently without hedging anything (despite the name), and if the fund drops half its value in a year -- or a month -- well, you were warned. What's more, institutional investors in general are known for doing stupid things with other people's money. > Every broker will no doubt agree - > that without the hedge, the trader gets fired on the spot. You have a very optimistic view of how thoroughly self-policed the brokerage industry is. > Definite no-no. > > ...(which is the point which you were getting at, apparently)... > > ...but all of this info about Krongard had to be dug-up by others, since > the 9/11 commission was really no more than a rubber stamp for what the > White House was ordering them to say. Even worse, they were actively > impeding much of this information about Krongard. > > Caveat. I find this stuff interesting, and worth reading, but do not > believe in the full extent of any high level conspiracy. Krongard may > have been near the top of the ladder. I do not buy the "missile theory" > or the fake passenger list or any of that other crap. The smoking gun is > WTC7 - building seven - and if Steven Jones had just stuck with just the > WTC7 as his main argument, then he would have found a lot more converts, > MANY more, as the other stuff is tenuous, at best, and ludicrous at > worst - and may have been planted to make the real damage seem to be > part of the same nut-case package. > > However, there was definitely a signed and valid *demolition permit* > which had been issued by NYC to the WTC, following the old explosion in > the parking garage, and that was for the ENTIRE complex - as tenancy had > dropped way-off and they were intending to take the whole complex down, > regardless. There is zero argument about that, yet many casual observers > do not not know it. A photocopy of that demolition permit (circa 1997) > was on the net at one time, but appears to have been removed. At least > my link is dead. > > And I agree that it would have been absolutely *unconscionable* for the > new owner to have allowed thousands of workers to continue to work > there, for the 3-4 years afterwards - in ignorance of this ! if the > buildings had already been fitted with the thermite - which is what > others are saying. Also the (over)insurance policy could never have been > issued, if this was known. Yet that is what some experts claim to see in > the video - clear evidence of timed sequential thermite detonation. I have never knocked down a building. However I've spent hours -- no, make that weeks -- in hardware labs staring at scope traces that were nothing like what anyone expected, and I've spent decades of my life looking at the results of software runs that didn't look anything like what we had anticipated. I've learned a lesson from that: Predicting what a complex system will do and how it will appear when it's subjected to unexpected stresses is dicey, at best. Working in the high performance computing arena, I've also learned something else: When you scale a system up to 10 times the size you tested with, new and completely unexpected effects appear. Claims that the fall of the buildings "looked like" controlled demolition and therefore must have been exactly that, along with claims that certain features are "impossible to explain" unless explosives were used (despite the fact that we've never seen a building of this sort and of this size fall before, and hence have /no/ /idea/ what it "should" look like as it comes down), strike me as very weak arguments. Did the bottom floors have their windows blow out before the top floors fell all the way down onto them? Hmm. I can't explain that. OH, wow -- it can't be explained from what we already know about the way buildings like this fall, so that proves it: it must have been due to use of explosives! Sure, just like the fact that there are glitches in the software which can't always be explained must mean we have gremlins haunting the machine room. The buildings fell far more slowly than the speed of sound. But vibrations and shock waves travel at the speed of sound. Ergo, the bottom floors "knew" that something bad had happened to the top floors long before the stack of pancakes landed on them, and the structure could very well have responded in unexpected ways to the collapse of the upper floors. Whatever, proving anything by watching videos is a tough slog.... > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 21:18:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K5IqKo013980; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:18:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K5IpRf013959; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:18:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:18:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DA84B7.4050108@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 00:18:47 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <190601c75444$f9d0aba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45D9E6DB.4050207@pobox.com> <45DA1124.80802@pacbell.net> <45DA1B79.70100@pobox.com> <45DA2C5B.1090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219181314.03766e38@mindspring.com> <45DA38E1.8090908@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219191641.037ecd70@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > > To be honest there is far far more evidence but what is the point, you > are simply not open to this regardless of the evidence. > One "point" is that lots of people lurking in this thread find it fascinating, even if Jed just finds it annoying. Jed, as always, sounds persuasive, and I, for one, am not convinced that this was anything other than what it appeared to be at first glance. None the less the evidence that something more was going on is extremely interesting ... and maybe, maybe even convincing; I haven't decided yet... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 22:01:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K61YrG025050; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:01:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K61XY0025042; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:01:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:01:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ZwX6HN2nSoathj7zsKv4ZhNWywtm7RhSLZgQZqM2H9Xy4Iuure3L7WaoaJk/RbjZnnMdpodNPwDh6G5LmBpX0PuUBaJhjt3WYDcCSIKBmVW227T87VWWNAmPGD98PZb8H9jf0HNW0zpS2e0pYbHdeAfgc4f5U2ypJF9dvRqDykE= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:01:31 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Synced explosions In-Reply-To: <45DA55AF.9040008@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35053_21981291.1171951291578" References: <45DA3E6E.50009@pacbell.net> <45DA55AF.9040008@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_35053_21981291.1171951291578 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Basically any real investigation provides more and more evidence. Jones, would you try the following when you have free time. Watch Loose Change 2nd Edition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY (long, 1 hour 29mins) and Mysteries Demolitions 9/11 Mysteries Part 1 (of 9) Demolitions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ax_4AdWOU On 2/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > Go here: > > http://thewebfairy.com/911/demolition/controlled.htm > > > Yes ! > > This is ABSOLUTELY clear in the 5th video - the one marked > "Building 7 too" that these are synced charges going off near the > corner... > > ... or else NYC has one hell of a lot of water pressure > > > Which reminds me of the Seinfeld episode of Cosmo Kramer and his shower > restrictors... Kramer didn't like the new law requiring low-pressure > showerheads - so he found a one that was made to wash horses. > > Probably the same brand as the ones that miraculously went-off in > precise sequence during this WTC non-demolition event > > ------=_Part_35053_21981291.1171951291578 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Basically any real investigation provides more and more evidence.

Jones, would you try the following when you have free time.
Watch Loose Change 2nd Edition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY (long, 1 hour 29mins)

and

Mysteries Demolitions 9/11 Mysteries Part 1 (of 9) Demolitions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ax_4AdWOU


On 2/20/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net > wrote:
John Berry wrote:
> Go here:
> http://thewebfairy.com/911/demolition/controlled.htm


Yes !

This is ABSOLUTELY clear in the 5th video - the one marked
"Building 7 too" that these are synced charges going off near the corner...

... or else NYC has one hell of a lot of water pressure <g>


Which reminds me of the Seinfeld episode of Cosmo Kramer and his shower
restrictors... Kramer didn't like the new law requiring low-pressure
showerheads - so he found a one that was made to wash horses.

Probably the same brand as the ones that miraculously went-off in
precise sequence during this WTC non-demolition event <g>


------=_Part_35053_21981291.1171951291578-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 22:38:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K6cEMt002927; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:38:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K6cCCN002919; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:38:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:38:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 01:34:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter aerodynamics In-reply-to: <1f5001c7548a$bf50c4b0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6BbpsC.A.it.Udp2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes I mean drag, but there may be other aerodynamic forces to consider. Also I don't think the profile is aerodynamic because the boundary is not crisp like a fuselage. Does gf mean g-force? If so that a percentage of the acceleration due to gravity or a force as in force = ma ? The fact that a certain current coincided with lift off does not necessarily provide a comprehensive explanation of what makes it go. For example, the current drawn by spark plug does not account for the motion of the blade on a lawn mower. Anyway, if an accelerometer were mounted on a lifter the actual dynamic forces involved could be estimated more accurately. Unfortunately I can't view the video on my antiquated iMac. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > I agree that the lifter's ion [induced] wind adds to the aerodynamic drag > during ascent (I think that's what you're saying, note you could say the same > of a helicopter's propeller induced wind) > > Anyway in the case of the lifter this wind is relatively slow (of the order of > 1 m/s, about 100 times slower than the entraining ions which are not very good > "paddles" and not very numerous), and the profile is usually quite > aerodynamic, so the corresponding drag is quite small. This means that in > practice the thrust needed for takeoff isn't much more than the device's > weight. > > Example (Blazelabs 100g payload lifter): total weight of lifter + payload = > 187gf, let's see what current is needed for a thrust of 187gf. The gap being > 92mm, by applying the EHD thrust formula: > > thrust in gf = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm > > we find that we need a current of 4.1mA (187/(0.5*92)). In practice Xavier > found that the lifter almost took off at 4.2mA, and definitely flew and tensed > its tethers at 4.4mA: > > http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp14.asp (do watch the video) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:54 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Lifter aerodynamics > > > >> An "ion-wind" may produce enough force to let the lifter hover, but can >> it produce enough force to let the lifter (and its expanded >> electro-aeordynamic profile) _ascend_ through the air? >> >> Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 23:10:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1K7An9Y027970; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:10:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1K7Agvf027933; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:10:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:10:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:06:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <002c01c75495$f43eb8c0$0edf163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > All I know is, when properly shielded, the lifters and similar devices do > not produce anomalous thrust. Not only I have found this, but many others, > in particular, Xavier as Michel pointed out. But what we found is not really > very romantic. hmmm A sheet of paper inserted in the gap of a spark plug will prevent my dad's lawn mower from working. Does that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that electricity is what powers the lawn mower? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 02:14:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KADfJT022318; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:13:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KADdug022307; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:13:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:13:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1fbb01c754d7$c8fe2870$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter aerodynamics Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:13:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1KADbTI022289 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter aerodynamics > > Yes I mean drag, but there may be other aerodynamic forces to consider. > Also I don't think the profile is aerodynamic because the boundary is not > crisp like a fuselage. > > Does gf mean g-force? If so that a percentage of the acceleration due to > gravity or a force as in force = ma ? Yes, gram force, that's about 1 cN. Yes, thrust is a force. > The fact that a certain current coincided with lift off does not necessarily > provide a comprehensive explanation of what makes it go. For example, the > current drawn by spark plug does not account for the motion of the blade > on a lawn mower. Ah but the ion wind force formula is not some empirical formula as you seem to suggest -I posted Sigmond's derivation-, and it accounts for the measured lift (=the weight since aerodynamic drag is negligible: you can see on the Excel screenshot on the Blazelabs page that the wind speed is less than 1m/s = 3.6km/h) within measurement errors. That's enough proof for me, but YMMV. > Anyway, if an accelerometer were mounted on a lifter the actual dynamic > forces involved could be estimated more accurately. You can also measure acceleration on the video (if you can find a way to view it ;-). And since the mass is known you will find the force via f=ma, a good exercise indeed. Michel > > Unfortunately I can't view the video on my antiquated iMac. > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> I agree that the lifter's ion [induced] wind adds to the aerodynamic drag >> during ascent (I think that's what you're saying, note you could say the same >> of a helicopter's propeller induced wind) >> >> Anyway in the case of the lifter this wind is relatively slow (of the order of >> 1 m/s, about 100 times slower than the entraining ions which are not very good >> "paddles" and not very numerous), and the profile is usually quite >> aerodynamic, so the corresponding drag is quite small. This means that in >> practice the thrust needed for takeoff isn't much more than the device's >> weight. >> >> Example (Blazelabs 100g payload lifter): total weight of lifter + payload = >> 187gf, let's see what current is needed for a thrust of 187gf. The gap being >> 92mm, by applying the EHD thrust formula: >> >> thrust in gf = 0.5*i*d with i in mA and d in mm >> >> we find that we need a current of 4.1mA (187/(0.5*92)). In practice Xavier >> found that the lifter almost took off at 4.2mA, and definitely flew and tensed >> its tethers at 4.4mA: >> >> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp14.asp (do watch the video) >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:54 PM >> Subject: [Vo]: Lifter aerodynamics >> >> >> >>> An "ion-wind" may produce enough force to let the lifter hover, but can >>> it produce enough force to let the lifter (and its expanded >>> electro-aeordynamic profile) _ascend_ through the air? >>> >>> Harry >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 06:30:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KETrSM025742; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:29:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KETl6q025675; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:29:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:29:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAGiT2kXLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANjwABASqSYgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,196,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="1062198222:sNHT80280270" Message-ID: <45DB05D4.6000106@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:29:40 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Better way to sequester CO2- re branson References: <45D83EFA.9070906@iinet.net.au> <5p2it2906b2jjdsg7iecdq6sii8nfttb5f@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <5p2it2906b2jjdsg7iecdq6sii8nfttb5f@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8QSJND.A.7QG.aXw2FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks robin Your correct. Good black coal can be 80% carbon 20% hydrogen. In clean burning coal the CO2 reaction is a big part of the energy but if CO2 is chilled and sequested you loose most of that energy and all that counts is the energy output of the hydrogen. That's why the coal industry baulks at clean coal; its a large energy loss. If you make Carbon fiber from gases the bonds must be broken and reformed; another use [loss] of energy. If those bonds in coal are transformed with minimal net energy flow then the final result: carbon fiber +hydrogen + some hydrocarbons would be of an equal energetic value to the energy of clean coal with the CO2 sequested in the ground and the product value would far exceed the commodity price of the raw coal. A lot of work needs to be done and I'm hoping for a Steorn powered car first. At that point the coal market crashes, the energetics of carbon fiber changes and the huge feed stock of free carbon [all that unwanted coal] is up for grabs. ;-) Note some coals are so poor most of the energy is wasted drying the stuff. Its much worse for the dirty stuff the Chinese mine much of the carbon leaves the smokestacks unburnt ash and soot. Published energy values are often post drying. Aussy coal, being the best coal, :-P does not need drying. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:56:42 +1100: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>Most of the energy in coal is in the hydrogen bonds not the >>carbon to carbon bonds. >> >> >[snip] >There is very little hydrogen in coal (much more in oil), so I think you need to >prove this point Wesley. Furthermore, even in oil, more energy is derived from >the formation of CO2 than from the formation of water. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, >Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 06:44:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KEi8NQ003367; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:44:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KEi3Ot003336; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:44:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:44:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220093145.03675840@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:43:58 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: References: <28932725.1171944640002.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >I suspect the WTC towers were designed with a structural weakness >to make any future demolition easy. ABSOLUTELY NOT! That would be insane. The WTC Towers were one of the strongest structures made up to the 1970s. They withstood the effects of the crashing airplanes and fire far longer than any previous structure could have, or than most would today. They collapsed because millions of tons of steel and concrete fell about 6 meters when one of the floors finally collapsed. The force from that immediately sheered the next floor supports, and the ones below that, one after the other. This was obvious from the metal recovered from the wreckage. It is easy to tell the difference between metal that was melted and broken from heat, and metal that was broken by the force of falling weight. In any case, putting explosives in the lower floors would be pointless. They would not be needed. The energy of the falling building was roughly equivalent to a small nuclear bomb. It far exceeded the force you could achieve with conventional explosives. Along the same lines, having the airplanes fire missiles into the building before they struck would be ridiculous. The energy release from a missile is trivial compared to the kinetic energy from an airplane, and that kinetic energy is far smaller than the energy release from the burning jet fuel. The fuel has enough potential energy to drive the aircraft for hours at close to the speed of sound! Firing a missile first would be like hitting someone with a pillow first and then hitting him with a Mack Truck going at 60 mph. Why bother with the pillow? A missile is effective that it can be guided to the target and it causes intense damage to the machine it strikes. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 06:48:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KEmKkF019163; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:48:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KEmIlF019144; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:48:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:48:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah4FABSY2kXLrQUgUGdsb2JhbAANhzaHSgEBKpJUAQEB X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,196,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="503761986:sNHT36115468" Message-ID: <45DB0A2F.4000000@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:48:15 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4XgIuC.A.ArE.yow2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ocean biomass and biofuel Status: O X-Status: Back in the 1980 Jacques-Yves Cousteau championed a ocean based biofuel technology that has since been lost. The technology involved buoy based nutrient up welling pumps powered by methane. The Methane was produced from kelp plants grown on a mesh net attached below the water line. The deep sea water from a mile or two down was rich enough to fertilize the kelp; including iron. The kelp was processed, milled and dumped into a tank on the buoy. A salt tolerant strain of bacteria made methane. Some powered the buoy or the pumps and the rest was fuel for sale. By products included fish and shellfish grown around the same buoy. Sometimes these fish were penned and some were free swimming. the greatest by product is that these buoys are ideal as open ocean property markers. We need a way to mark and this Own key areas of the sea. You only husband properly the things that you own. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 07:40:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KFe1Pi003442; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 07:40:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KFZvOW002235; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 07:35:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 07:35:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:26:25 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xjed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xjed" Resent-Message-ID: <9b-1P.A.3i.dVx2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: That brings up another important point. This administration is incompetent ... So why does anyone imagine that this administration is capable of orchestrating and carrying out the largest deception in history, and magically persuading thousands of top experts all over the world to go along with the cover up? ... Hi All, As the Bible says, "By their works you shall know them." The Bush family, along with the Saudi's, makes more money as the price of oil goes up. See Craig Unger's book: "House of Bush, House of Saud," They apparently don't care that the Iranians and Venezuelans also make more money. Oil futures peaked at an intraday high of $78.40 on July 14, 2006, but averaged $66.25 for 2006, compared with $56.70 in 2005 and $41.47 per barrel in 2004. Now, a world oil glut appears to be developing. So Bush will have to bomb the Iranian oil fields in order to achieve an average 2007 price of $80 per barrel. This will be part of the effort to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilty. The new head of CENTCOM, Admiral William Fallon, is well qualified to accomplish this. Incompetence is in the eye of the beholder. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 08:18:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KGHwLZ024506; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:17:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KGHuVo024482; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:17:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:17:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:16:39 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1KGHsQL024448 Resent-Message-ID: <634AoB.A.U-F.08x2FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Now, a world oil glut appears to be developing. Not according to the Atlanta Constitution today: http://www.ajc.com/search/content/business/stories/2007/02/20/0220bizoil.html "Saudis' cutbacks raise oil concerns Some question country's reserves Drivers who remember those $3-a-gallon days of the past two years, be warned. Oil prices are up and the world's biggest producer has been cutting back ­ a recipe for those prices to keep on climbing. But whether they are still arching skyward by the time summer driving starts depends largely on just why Saudi Arabia has been pumping less crude. No one outside the kingdom really knows for sure, but some oil experts think the Saudis' oil reserves may not support increased production. Official Saudi explanations for production cuts cite the recent dips in global prices ... . . . The price of a regular gasoline averaged $2.10 a gallon in metro Atlanta on Monday, up a dime in a month, according to GasBuddy.com. During that same period, the global price of oil has risen about 14 percent. Meanwhile, Saudi production is reportedly down about 1 million barrels a day from an average of about 9.5 million barrels a day through much of 2005. It is not just the decline that is troubling, Hamilton said. "I don't know for sure what the answer is, but I find the facts disturbing." • Cutbacks started when prices were high. • The Saudis have been nearly frantic in their recent drilling for more oil. • Some reports show the Saudis increasingly relying on lower-quality, less valuable oil." . . . This is what Deffeyes and others who have been to Saudi Arabia have been predicting for years. >So Bush will have to bomb the Iranian oil fields >in order to achieve an average 2007 price of $80 per barrel. That is not necessary. The Iranians are destroying their own oil fields without help from us. Their fields are in such poor shape from mismanagement and bad technology that the country will soon not be able to produce enough for its own domestic consumption. The problem can be partially fixed by replacing obsolete equipment, but much of the oil is gone forever. The destructive methods used to be employed in the US and Texas. They make much of the potential oil impossible to extract economically. That is to say, you can extract it, but that would take more energy than you get from burning the oil, so there is no point. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:20:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KHK5sZ022980; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:20:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KHF94F018475; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:15:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:15:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200702201715.l1KHF3vW097648@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:15:02 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_f63ae931fb49b8a571dc9b45f41aada4" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=_f63ae931fb49b8a571dc9b45f41aada4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As predicted, once again there have been a lot of vocal opinions expressed on what were the ultimate causes for falling of the WTCs. There appears to be the need to include pre-fired missiles, or thermite explosives strategically placed within the support structures, all to explain the ultimate collapse of the WTCs, the rationale being, the passenger jets themselves just couldn't be held responsible all by themselves. And so, where to lay the real blame. It would seem that many in the Vort collective are by nature a contrarian group of individuals, myself included. I know I have made it a personal life-task to, more often than not, reject the prevailing party opinion without first looking into the matter myself. While it has not been easy, it has occasionally served me well too look under the rug. Despite my desire to remain an irritating contrarian SOB I continue to feel that the amount of thermal energy released from the fully loaded fuel tanks of passenger jets, along with the jet's combined kinetic energy to be a plausible explanation. Nevertheless, a vocal group can not accept these explanations as plausible. For them, it would seem that there MUST be additional more sinister explanations, that missiles and/or strategically positioned chemical explosives had to have been used as well. Why? I think it's fair to say that events happen in our lives that seem to suggest the disquieting fact that we aren't always in control of our destinies. How do we deal with this conundrum? Psychologically speaking, there is an all-too-often tendency for many of us to externalize our personal discomforts, to lay-blame in the nefarious actions of others or events. We see this happen all the time in the political and international arenas. People and societies find all sorts of scapegoats to rationalize the problems experienced at home: The Jews are the reason our society is all messed up; or America, the Great Satan, is the reason why our society is suffering; or Secular Humanism is the reason for the high rates of juvenile delinquencies and high rates of pregnancies in our society; The Bush Dynasty is behind the orchestrated war against terrorism - and to prop up oil profits; missiles and strategically placed explosives were the real reasons why the WTCs vertically slid into obli! vion, all within a matter of seconds. Admitting to myself that I'm an irritating contrarian SOB also means facing up to my own personal demons. I have had many to wrestle with in my short 54 years of life. It's also been my experience that personal demons when given a chance prefer to remain externalized, most likely as a way to protect myself from portions of myself I'm not comfortable owning up to. S%#T happens. It is only human to F%#K up. S%#T happens in the world as well, most likely because we humans have a tendency to occasionally misinterpret human events, and as a result F%#K things up. It was a S#%TTY, horrible thing to witness two towers fall from the sky, complements of a band of terrorists who remained faithful to their instant deaths and ultimate rewards in heaven, convinced that god was on their side - as if a massive invisible divine hand had simply chosen to squash the two buildings in the middle of a beautiful September autumn morning. WHY? How could this happen? There had to be a reason! WHOSE TO BLAME? ...For something this horrible to have transpired there MUST have been a methodical nefarious plan in place. It's just too horrible to believe otherwise. Am I implying that a need to believe in missiles and strategically implanted thermite explosives are just attempts to externalize a horrible event too S%#tty to believe could have possibly been executed otherwise? Yeah, I suppose so. As long as we externalize the emotional trauma attributed to the WTC collapse as the result of missiles and/or explosives, at least we won't have to wrestle with another personal demon that every time we pay for an air ticket and take our seats in a passenger jet that we are contributing the kinetic energy of our own helpless bodies to a potential terrorist bomb capable of killing thousands of people and leveling tall buildings in a flash of an eye. Yeah, it HAD to have been missiles ...yeah, and explosives too. Yeah, that's the ticket. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_f63ae931fb49b8a571dc9b45f41aada4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As predicted, once again there have been a lot of vocal opinions expressed = on what were the ultimate causes for falling of the WTCs. There appears to = be the need to include pre-fired missiles, or thermite explosives strategic= ally placed within the support structures, all to explain the ultimate coll= apse of the WTCs, the rationale being, the passenger jets themselves just c= ouldn't be held responsible all by themselves. And so, where to lay the rea= l blame.

It would seem that many in the Vort collective are by nature a contrarian g= roup of individuals, myself included. I know I have made it a personal life= -task to, more often than not, reject the prevailing party opinion without = first looking into the matter myself. While it has not been easy, it has oc= casionally served me well too look under the rug.

Despite my desire to remain an irritating contrarian SOB I continue to feel= that the amount of thermal energy released from the fully loaded fuel tank= s of passenger jets, along with the jet's combined kinetic energy to be a p= lausible explanation. Nevertheless, a vocal group can not accept these expl= anations as plausible. For them, it would seem that there MUST be additiona= l more sinister explanations, that missiles and/or strategically positioned= chemical explosives had to have been used as well.

Why?

I think it's fair to say that events happen in our lives that seem to sugge= st the disquieting fact that we aren't always in control of our destinies. = How do we deal with this conundrum? Psychologically speaking, there is an a= ll-too-often tendency for many of us to externalize our personal discomfort= s, to lay-blame in the nefarious actions of others or events. We see this h= appen all the time in the political and international arenas. People and so= cieties find all sorts of scapegoats to rationalize the problems experience= d at home: The Jews are the reason our society is all messed up; or America= , the Great Satan, is the reason why our society is suffering; or Secular H= umanism is the reason for the high rates of juvenile delinquencies and high= rates of pregnancies in our society; The Bush Dynasty is behind the orches= trated war against terrorism - and to prop up oil profits; missiles and str= ategically placed explosives were the real reasons why the WTCs vertically = slid into oblivion, all within a matter of seconds.

Admitting to myself that I'm an irritating contrarian SOB also means facing= up to my own personal demons. I have had many to wrestle with in my short = 54 years of life. It's also been my experience that personal demons when gi= ven a chance prefer to remain externalized, most likely as a way to protect= myself from portions of myself I'm not comfortable owning up to.

S%#T happens. It is only human to F%#K up. S%#T happens in the world as wel= l, most likely because we humans have a tendency to occasionally misinterpr= et human events, and as a result F%#K things up. It was a S#%TTY, horrible = thing to witness two towers fall from the sky, complements of a band of ter= rorists who remained faithful to their instant deaths and ultimate rewards = in heaven, convinced that god was on their side - as if a massive invisible= divine hand had simply chosen to squash the two buildings in the middle of= a beautiful September autumn morning. WHY? How could this happen? There ha= d to be a reason! WHOSE TO BLAME? ...For something this horrible to have tr= anspired there MUST have been a methodical nefarious plan in place. It's ju= st too horrible to believe otherwise.

Am I implying that a need to believe in missiles and strategically implante= d thermite explosives are just attempts to externalize a horrible event too= S%#tty to believe could have possibly been executed otherwise? Yeah, I sup= pose so. As long as we externalize the emotional trauma attributed to the W= TC collapse as the result of missiles and/or explosives, at least we won't = have to wrestle with another personal demon that every time we pay for an a= ir ticket and take our seats in a passenger jet that we are contributing th= e kinetic energy of our own helpless bodies to a potential terrorist bomb c= apable of killing thousands of people and leveling tall buildings in a flas= h of an eye. Yeah, it HAD to have been missiles ...yeah, and explosives too= . Yeah, that's the ticket.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_f63ae931fb49b8a571dc9b45f41aada4-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:23:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KHN0mV001102; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:23:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KHMxux001083; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:22:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:22:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220115409.036fea88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:22:55 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1KHMvtZ001053 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: NIST cuts through the Twin Towers BS Status: O X-Status: Here is the antidote to the nonsense published here and elsewhere by conspiracy theorists: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm Example: "As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that: “… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation. Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.” In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:47:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KHlBc7016133; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:47:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KHl6vs016079; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:47:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220123106.036e8d90@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:40:31 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Johnson's analysis In-Reply-To: <200702201715.l1KHF3vW097648@mail2.mx.voyager.net> References: <200702201715.l1KHF3vW097648@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2FwW6D.A.L7D.ZQz2FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >. . . Nevertheless, a vocal group can not accept these explanations >as plausible. For them, it would seem that there MUST be additional >more sinister explanations, that missiles and/or strategically >positioned chemical explosives had to have been used as well. > >Why? > >I think it's fair to say that events happen in our lives that seem >to suggest the disquieting fact that we aren't always in control of >our destinies. . . . >How could this happen? There had to be a reason! WHOSE TO BLAME? >...For something this horrible to have transpired there MUST have >been a methodical nefarious plan in place. It's just too horrible to >believe otherwise. . . . >As long as we externalize the emotional trauma attributed to the WTC >collapse as the result of missiles and/or explosives, at least we >won't have to wrestle with another personal demon that every time we >pay for an air ticket and take our seats in a passenger jet that we >are contributing the kinetic energy of our own helpless bodies to a >potential terrorist bomb capable of killing thousands of people and >leveling tall buildings in a flash of an eye. Yeah, it HAD to have >been missiles ...yeah, and explosives too. Yeah, that's the ticket. You have hit the nail on the head! People want to believe in a deeper conspiracy. This makes them feel better. Frankly, I would just as soon be attacked by religious fanatics as by a crazed U.S. administration. Regarding thermite, NIST writes: "Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition." This shows why a quantitative analysis is called for. The hypothesis sounds vaguely plausible until you see "many thousands of pounds." No one could bring in and install that mass of material without being noticed in the middle of an office building in New York City. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:59:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KHx82j013470; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KHx7sO013457; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jH3+9wDgOa8Rf28X/TA6bV/5gxGgzTpehWPGaWU7QCiMtizLvrgGoeEUEVEKpo/B4b5etvvYyxd7Hmste5acPep+M0S7cBDtF9P7598nRXFgpL5mY6glDCMAb960Udw1Skm521QdO6pipNz7oiaCPZJeBNDWHIVuoCwkl6SSeBQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: _Rsy8KEVM1lmbYSAfpyvPll8NDqaiIoyn0J4gA.2xE_io6A.F22H1ql0Trkrj9tdAFU8OZJGQt_I589rQBPPATCCFvUeyIG6rhVjz2psBuwaJwstdw9K7VJ_1HSxk4_62wl8yJ8.dVoLEaA- Message-ID: <45DB36E8.9080908@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:04 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1KHx4ta013430 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Yes, Vo's and fellow Patriots everywhere - it is time to come-down hard on those conspiracy theory nut-cases who want to ruin this country with false accusations of cover-ups. Like you-know-who (not Santa) it is high-time for enforcement officials to make a list and check it twice for these flagrant Patriot-Act scofflaws. To wit: Senator Max Cleland ~ Former member of the 9/11 Commission, resigned in December 2003 "I - as a member of the [9/11] Commission, cannot look any American in the eye... It is a national scandal... this White House wants to cover [9/11] up." Col. Robert Bowman, U.S. Air Force, Director of Advanced Space Programs, PhD Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering " the official 9/11 story is impossible .. There is a cover up .. high levels of our government don't want us to know what happened ... the very kindest thing we can say about George W Bush .. is high treason and cospiracy to commit murder " Senator Mark Dayton ~ Member, Senate Committee on Armed Services and Homeland Security "[NORAD] lied to the American people, they lied to Congress and they lied to your 9/11 Commission...the most gross incompetence and dereliction of responsibility and negligence" Congressman Ron Paul ~ Vice Chairman of the Oversight and Investigations subcommittee "the [9/11] investigations that have been done so far as more or less cover-up and no real explanation" Congressman Curt Weldon ~ "[9/11 Commission] there's something very sinister going on here... something desperately wrong... This involved what is right now the covering up of information that led to the deaths of 3,000 people" Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney ~ Member of the House Armed Services Committee "the [9/11] Commission ran up against obstruction by the administration and non-cooperation from government agencies... the errors and omissions immediately jumped out at us" Director of the FBI, Louis Freeh ~ "[9/11 Commission] findings--raises serious challenges to the commission's credibility and, if the facts prove out, might just render the commission historically insignificant itself" Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury, Paul Craig Roberts, PhD ~ "Distinguished national and international scientists and scholars present massive evidence that the 9/11 Commission Report is a hoax and that the 9/11 "terrorist attack" has been manipulated to serve a hegemonic agenda in the Middle East... We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to "pancake" at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false" Assistant Secretary of Housing, Catherine Austin Fitts ~ "Regarding 9/11 "The official story could not possibly have happened... It's not possible. It's not operationally feasible... The Commission was a whitewash. " U.S. Army Intelligence officer, Federal Prosecutor, Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Department of Justice, John Loftus ~ "The information provided by European intelligence services prior to 9/11 was so extensive that it is no longer possible for either the CIA or FBI to assert a defence of incompetence" Foreign Service Officer, George Kenney ~ " I cannot believe, much as I might like to, the standard account of 9/11" Foreign Service Officer, J. Michael Springman ~ "Fifteen of the nineteen people who allegedly flew airplanes into buildings in the United States got their visas from the same CIA Consulate at Jeddah" Deputy Attorney General, State of Pennsylvania, Philip J. Berg, Esquire "The official story of what actually took place on 9/11 is a lie. " Major General U.S. Army, Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, Albert Stubblebine "I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, 'The plane does not fit in that hole'. So what did hit the Pentagon?" Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps ~ Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center - "I'm astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that's accurate" Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force, aircraft accident investigator ~ "I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident... The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from view .. with all the evidence readilty available at the pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged .. the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history " Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army ~ "Regarding the impact at the Pentagon on 9/11/2001 "when you look at the damage, it was obviously a missile." Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force, fighter pilot, commercial pilot flying 707, 720, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777 's. Had previously flown Flight 93, which impacted in Pennsylvania, and Flight 175, the second plane to hit the WTC ~ "The government story they handed us about 9/11 is total B.S. plain and simple...[Regarding Flight 77]"The airplane could not have flown at those speeds which they said it did without going into what they call a high speed stall. The airplane won't go that fast if you start pulling those high G maneuvers at those bank angles... The vehicle that hit the Pentagon was not Flight 77" Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force, Office of the Secretary of Defense, staff of the Director of the National Security Agency ~ "It is as a scientist that I have the most trouble with the official government theory, mainly because it does not satisfy the rules of probability or physics. The collapses of the World Trade Center buildings clearly violate the laws of probability and physics... Senior Military Affairs Journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School, Barbara Honegger, MS ~ "The US military, not al Qaeda, had the sustained access weeks before 9/11 to also plant controlled demolition charges throughout the superstructures of WTC 1 and WTC 2, and in WTC 7, which brought down all three buildings on 9/11...A US military plane, not one piloted by al Qaeda, performed the highly skilled, high−speed 270−degree dive towards the Pentagon that Air Traffic Controllers on 9/11 were sure was a military plane as they watched it on their screens. Only a military aircraft, not a civilian plane flown by al Qaeda, would have given off the "Friendly" signal needed to disable the Pentagon's anti−aircraft missile batteries as it approached the building...Only the US military, not al Qaeda, had the ability to break all of its Standard Operating Procedures to paralyze its own emergency response system" Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army, U.S. Army Intelligence Officer ~ "I knew from September 18, 2001, that the official story about 9/11 was false. ... [A]nomalies poured in rapidly: the hijackers' names appearing in none of the published flight passenger lists, BBC reports of stolen identities of the alleged hijackers or the alleged hijackers being found alive, the obvious demolitions of WTC 1 and 2...and WTC7...not hit by an airplane...the lack of identifiable Boeing 757 wreckage at the Pentagon" Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army, Intelligence officer ~ "I view the 911 event ...as a matter that implies either...A) passive participation by the Bush White House through a deliberate stand-down or B) active execution of a plot by rogue elements of government, starting with the White House itself, in creating a spectacle of destruction that would lead the United States into an invasion of the Middle East" Raymond L. McGovern Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President' Daily Brief, U.S. Army Intelligence Officer, " I think at simplest terms, there's a cover-up. The 9/11 report is a joke...just as Hitler in 1933 cynically exploited the burning of the parliament building, the Reichstag, this is exactly what our President did in exploiting 9/11...making a war of aggression on a country that he knew had nothing to do with 9/11...that's certainly an impeachable offense...But compelling evidence for an even more disturbing conclusion: that the 9/11 attacks were themselves orchestrated by this administration precisely so they could be thus exploited." National Intelligence Officer and Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis, William Christison ~ "there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. ... An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. ... The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them...this all was totally an inside job... I have since decided that....at least some elements in this US government had contributed in some way or other to causing 9/11 to happen or at least allowing it to happen... The reason that the two towers in New York actually collapsed and fell all the way to the ground was controlled explosions rather than just being hit by two airplanes. ... All of the characteristics of these demolitions show that they almost had to have been controlled explosions... I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all... It's a monstrous crime" U.S. Marine Corps intelligence officer, case officer CIA. Robert David Steele ~ "I am forced to conclude that there is sufficient evidence to indict (not necessarily convict) Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and others...This is, without question, the most important modern reference on state-sponsored terrorism, and also the reference that most pointedly suggests that select rogue elements within the US Government, most likely led by Dick Cheney with the assistance of George Tenet, Buzzy Kronguard, and others close to the Wall Street gangs, are the most guilty of state-sponsored terrorism...I'm absolutely certain that WTC 7 was brought down by controlled demolition and that as far as I'm concerned means that this case has not been properly investigated. There's no way that building could have come down without controlled demolition" CIA Case Officer, Specialist in the Middle East, Directorate of Operations, Awarded Career Intelligence Medal, Robert Baer ~ " Regarding the opinion there was an aspect of 'inside job' to 9/11 within the U.S. government, "There is that possibility, the evidence points at it." Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of the federal Aviation Administration. Team leader of the FAA's Red ( Terrorism ) Team in the Federal Air Marshall program, Coast Guard officer, Bogdan Dzakovic ~ "At worst, I think the 9/11 Commission Report is treasonous." Minister of Justice, West Germany, Horst Ehmke, PhD - "Terrorists could not have carried out such an operation with four hijacked planes without the support of a secret service." State Secretary, Federal Ministry of Defense, West Germany, Andreas von Buelow, PhD - "The official story is so inadequate and far-fetched that there must be another one...This is unthinkable, without years-long support from secret apparatuses of the state and industry." President of Italy, Francesco Cossiga ~ "[9/11] could not be accomplished without infiltrations in the radar and flight security personnel." General Leonid Ivashov, Chief of Staff, Russian armed forces, Ministry of Defense ~ "Only secret services and their current chiefs – or those retired but still having influence inside the state organizations – have the ability to plan, organize and conduct an operation [9/11] of such magnitude...Osama bin Laden and "Al Qaeda" cannot be the organizers nor the performers of the September 11 attacks. They do not have the necessary organization, resources or leaders." Foreign Minister of Egypt, Mohamed Hassanein Heikal ~ "Bin Laden does not have the capabilities for an operation [9/11] of this magnitude. When I hear Bush talking about al-Qaida as if it was Nazi Germany or the communist party of the Soviet Union, I laugh because I know what is there. Bin Laden has been under surveillance for years: every telephone call was monitored and al-Qaida has been penetrated by American intelligence, Pakistani intelligence, Saudi intelligence, Egyptian intelligence. They could not have kept secret an operation that required such a degree of organisation and sophistication." Chief of Staff, Pakistani Army, General Mirza Aslam Beg ~ "The information which is now coming up, goes to prove that involvement by the 'rogue elements' of the U.S. military and intelligence organization is getting more obvious. Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda definitely do not have the knowhow and the capability to launch such operations involving such high precision coordination, based on information and expertise." European Parliament, Committee on Security and Defense, Giulietto Chiesa ~ regarding 9-11 "Billions of people were given only one explanation....which is entirely false....everyone who dares to question it is treated as if he was a fool." French Army Intelligence and artillery officer, Col. Pierre-Henri Bunel, Expert in the effects of artillery weapons and explosives ~ Regarding Department of Defense photos of the Pentagon on 9/11 "Image of the impact on the Pentagon is very instructive as to the nature of the explosion. ... It corresponds to a detonation of an explosive with high energetic power. The explosion does not correspond to a deflagration of kerosene...suggests a single engine flying vehicle much smaller in size than an airliner...resembles the effects of anti-concrete hollow charges that I have been able to observe on a number of battlefields...lead me therefore to think that the detonation that struck the building was that of a high-powered hollow charge used to destroy hardened buildings and carried by an aerial vehicle, a missile." Safety Engineer and accident Analyst, National Safety Technology Authority, Finland, Heikki Kurttila, PhD ~ " Conclusion: The observed collapse time of WTC 7 was 6.5 seconds. That is only half a second longer than it would have taken for the top of the building to fall to the ground in a vacuum, and half a second shorter than the falling time of an apple when air resistance is taken into account. ... The great speed of the collapse and the low value of the resistance factor strongly suggest controlled demolition." Counter-Terrorism Officer, MI5 (Britain), David Shayler ~ regarding 9-11 "The available evidence indicates that people in key positions in the FBI, the State Department, the CIA and so on were not loyal to the Constitution; that they saw an opportunity in plans laid down by genuine Islamic terrorists to carry out an operation that would shock the world and would therefore justify U.S. adventurism in the middle East, particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq." Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Thomas H. Kean, Former Governor of New Jersey ~ "FAA and NORAD officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue...We, to this day, don't know why NORAD told us what they told us...It was just so far from the truth." Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Homeland Security Advisory Council ~ "we got started late; we had a very short time frame...we did not have enough money...We had a lot of people strongly opposed to what we did. We had a lot of trouble getting access to documents and to people. ... So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail" 9/11 Commissioner, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence ~ "that panel members so distrusted testimony from Pentagon officials that they referred their concerns to the Pentagon's inspector general...We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting" Senior Counsel, 9/11 Commission, John J. Farmer, Jr., Former Attorney General, NJ, Former Commissioner of the State Commission of Investigations ~ Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described...The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years" The list goes on and on and on... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:24:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KIO5X2030794; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:24:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KIO3Dd030776; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:24:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:24:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:20:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220093145.03675840@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> I suspect the WTC towers were designed with a structural weakness >> to make any future demolition easy. > > ABSOLUTELY NOT! That would be insane. The WTC Towers were one of the > strongest structures made up to the 1970s. They withstood the effects > of the crashing airplanes and fire far longer than any previous > structure could have, or than most would today. > > They collapsed because millions of tons of steel and concrete fell > about 6 meters when one of the floors finally collapsed. The force > from that immediately sheered the next floor supports, and the ones > below that, one after the other. This was obvious from the metal > recovered from the wreckage. It is easy to tell the difference > between metal that was melted and broken from heat, and metal that > was broken by the force of falling weight. In any case, putting > explosives in the lower floors would be pointless. They would not be > needed. The energy of the falling building was roughly equivalent to > a small nuclear bomb. It far exceeded the force you could achieve > with conventional explosives. That is my point. The building was designed to withstand a severe _horizontal_ blow, but it was not designed to withstand a severe _downward_ blow. The inability of the structure to withstand a vertical shock would make its future demolition a breeze. > Along the same lines, having the > airplanes fire missiles into the building before they struck would be > ridiculous. The energy release from a missile is trivial compared to > the kinetic energy from an airplane, and that kinetic energy is far > smaller than the energy release from the burning jet fuel. The fuel > has enough potential energy to drive the aircraft for hours at close > to the speed of sound! Firing a missile first would be like hitting > someone with a pillow first and then hitting him with a Mack Truck > going at 60 mph. Why bother with the pillow? > > A missile is effective that it can be guided to the target and it > causes intense damage to the machine it strikes. > > - Jed > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:31:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KIUZe7018545; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:30:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KIUXeo018488; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:30:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:30:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220103049.02c525d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:31:19 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_163494343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc. Status: O X-Status: --=====================_163494343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070220/to213.html?.v=43 Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc. Tuesday February 20, 9:00 am ET Trading Symbol: SDWM:OTCBB VANCOUVER, Feb. 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ - Shadow Marketing Inc. (OTCBB: SDWM - News) is pleased to announce that it has delivered a written offer to purchase up to a 100% interest in D2Fusion, Inc., a private California corporation, from its parent company, Solar Energy Ltd. D2Fusion, Inc., which is based in Foster City, California, and Los Alamos, New Mexico, is a research and development company staffed by scientists and engineers working toward the delivery of proprietary solid-state fusion aimed at entry level heat and energy applications for homes and industry. Additional information regarding its technology and operations may be found on its website at www.d2fusion.com and in the Securities & Exchange Commission filings of Solar Energy Ltd. Shadow Marketing's offer follows recent discussions between its management and the principals of Solar Energy Ltd. and D2Fusion, Inc. The offer provides that Shadow Marketing would be required to raise $2,000,000 in working capital to fund D2Fusion's business plan and complete a five for one share split prior to closing. At closing, Shadow would issue 30,000,000 post-split shares of restricted common stock to Solar Energy Ltd. in exchange for all of the issued and outstanding shares of D2Fusion, Inc. The principals of D2Fusion would also gain control of Shadow Marketing's Board of Directors. Shadow Marketing Inc.'s offer to purchase is open for acceptance until February 21, 2007. If accepted, the agreement in principle would be replaced in due course with a formal agreement with standard representations, warranties and conditions precedent. --=====================_163494343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070220/to213.html?.v=43

Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc.
Tuesday February 20, 9:00 am ET
Trading Symbol: SDWM:OTCBB

VANCOUVER, Feb. 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ - Shadow Marketing Inc. (OTCBB: SDWM - News) is pleased to announce that it has delivered a written offer to purchase up to a 100% interest in D2Fusion, Inc., a private California corporation, from its parent company, Solar Energy Ltd.

D2Fusion, Inc., which is based in Foster City, California, and Los Alamos, New Mexico, is a research and development company staffed by scientists and engineers working toward the delivery of proprietary solid-state fusion aimed at entry level heat and energy applications for homes and industry. Additional information regarding its technology and operations may be found on its website at www.d2fusion.com and in the Securities & Exchange Commission filings of Solar Energy Ltd.

Shadow Marketing's offer follows recent discussions between its management and the principals of Solar Energy Ltd. and D2Fusion, Inc. The offer provides that Shadow Marketing would be required to raise $2,000,000 in working capital to fund D2Fusion's business plan and complete a five for one share split prior to closing. At closing, Shadow would issue 30,000,000 post-split shares of restricted common stock to Solar Energy Ltd. in exchange for all of the issued and outstanding shares of D2Fusion, Inc. The principals of D2Fusion would also gain control of Shadow Marketing's Board of Directors.

Shadow Marketing Inc.'s offer to purchase is open for acceptance until February 21, 2007. If accepted, the agreement in principle would be replaced in due course with a formal agreement with standard representations, warranties and conditions precedent.


--=====================_163494343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:49:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KIn6Af013325; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KIn5cc013306; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:45:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-reply-to: <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-hhHmC.A.xPD.gK02FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > Jed wrote: > > That brings up another important point. This administration > is incompetent ... So why does anyone imagine that this > administration is capable of orchestrating and carrying out > the largest deception in history, and magically persuading > thousands of top experts all over the world to go along > with the cover up? ... > > Hi All, > > As the Bible says, "By their works you shall know them." > The Bush family, along with the Saudi's, makes more money > as the price of oil goes up. See Craig Unger's book: > "House of Bush, House of Saud," They apparently don't care > that the Iranians and Venezuelans also make more money. > > Oil futures peaked at an intraday high of $78.40 on July > 14, 2006, but averaged $66.25 for 2006, compared with > $56.70 in 2005 and $41.47 per barrel in 2004. > > Now, a world oil glut appears to be developing. So Bush > will have to bomb the Iranian oil fields in order to > achieve an average 2007 price of $80 per barrel. This > will be part of the effort to destroy Iran's nuclear > capabilty. The new head of CENTCOM, Admiral William Fallon, > is well qualified to accomplish this. > > Incompetence is in the eye of the beholder. > > Jack Smith > > At any rate there is definitely a conflict of interest. It makes no sense for a country so dependent on oil to elect as president an individual who has a financial stake in the oil business. There should be law which says if you want to run for office you first have to get out of the energy business. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:49:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KInOFt013485; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KInNYN013462; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wAlNYt3OWgMtz9aqaqjg9htJYs088Cnuc4/nRx6dltW66t3IaGLhTFvEjtPJbPUG3eQVpS8zEFlDMCNCqJiKvTXULZ/jH43OhcnFVXOEPhGXKr6+4yPOYN5qiKXZ/z+94qDjlYXaQgo6ECER1ODSajNIwxp4SmnePNj2MuDV9Hw= ; X-YMail-OSG: fNxvMDQVM1mbM7vnf9ZwnwKuS8wRtECTwx2guqt0k_Kos09UqFxcA8CCIw9C3lqa2L9X2JdFqaA.dhVgZPZ0.QDHDfDdDTxo.V3pgyxb2kaKAFINbOCyI0qbqW3ARdOT3WHqPuqdaZOT7_v2vplkIAB6r1kubpH0XjyfaMiwocZ_Zysaw95K Message-ID: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:49:21 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2jHxO.A.LSD.yK02FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: No Thermite ? Status: O X-Status: No thermite, right? Come on Patriot-Actors and assorted skeptics... I can hear you muttering it already, even over cybespace: "Maybe the image has been photoshopped" riiight.... http://69.55.11.240/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=138415&Disp=385 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:56:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KIuKaA017323; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:56:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KIuJUs017306; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:56:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:56:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:56:11 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > The Iranians are destroying their own oil fields > without help from us. Their fields are in such poor shape from > mismanagement and bad technology that the country will soon not be able > to produce enough for its own domestic consumption. Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? I've read a number of times that Iranian claims that they want nuclear power to generate electricity doesn't pass the "laugh test". Well, if their oils is really running out that fast, maybe the ones who said that (mostly American officials, IIRC) were just trying to laugh off the possibility that Iran really _does_ want nuclear energy for something besides building bombs. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:06:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJ6Wen024309; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:06:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJ6VW8024290; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:06:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:06:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DB46B3.2000907@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:06:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <200702201715.l1KHF3vW097648@mail2.mx.voyager.net> In-Reply-To: <200702201715.l1KHF3vW097648@mail2.mx.voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You left something out of this armchair analysis of the psyche of those who want to believe it was an inside job: Bigotry. If it was an inside job then it was Americans who destroyed our own buildings. That's obviously possible -- evil wicked mean and nasty, but possible. What Americans build, Americans are certainly capable of destroying. On the other hand, if it wasn't an inside job, then it was a small group of low-tech undereducated fundamentalist Muslim Arabs who did it, despite all that the United States government could do to stop them. That's a big lump to swallow! At the very least, the Arabs _must_ have had the tacit assistance of the Bush administration, which certainly _must_ have intentionally looked the other way while the Arabs were coming -- otherwise such a group of mere Arabs could certainly never have pulled something like that off; we'd have caught them at it and stopped them. Sure, that's it, we obviously /must/ have just _let_ them do it... Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > As predicted, once again there have been a lot of vocal opinions > expressed on what were the ultimate causes for falling of the WTCs. > There appears to be the need to include pre-fired missiles, or thermite > explosives strategically placed within the support structures, all to > explain the ultimate collapse of the WTCs, the rationale being, the > passenger jets themselves just couldn't be held responsible all by > themselves. And so, where to lay the real blame. > > It would seem that many in the Vort collective are by nature a > contrarian group of individuals, myself included. I know I have made it > a personal life-task to, more often than not, reject the prevailing > party opinion without first looking into the matter myself. While it has > not been easy, it has occasionally served me well too look under the rug. > > Despite my desire to remain an irritating contrarian SOB I continue to > feel that the amount of thermal energy released from the fully loaded > fuel tanks of passenger jets, along with the jet's combined kinetic > energy to be a plausible explanation. Nevertheless, a vocal group can > not accept these explanations as plausible. For them, it would seem that > there MUST be additional more sinister explanations, that missiles > and/or strategically positioned chemical explosives had to have been > used as well. > > Why? > > I think it's fair to say that events happen in our lives that seem to > suggest the disquieting fact that we aren't always in control of our > destinies. How do we deal with this conundrum? Psychologically speaking, > there is an all-too-often tendency for many of us to externalize our > personal discomforts, to lay-blame in the nefarious actions of others or > events. We see this happen all the time in the political and > international arenas. People and societies find all sorts of scapegoats > to rationalize the problems experienced at home: The Jews are the reason > our society is all messed up; or America, the Great Satan, is the reason > why our society is suffering; or Secular Humanism is the reason for the > high rates of juvenile delinquencies and high rates of pregnancies in > our society; The Bush Dynasty is behind the orchestrated war against > terrorism - and to prop up oil profits; missiles and strategically > placed explosives were the real reasons why the WTCs vertically slid > into oblivion, all within a matter of seconds. > > Admitting to myself that I'm an irritating contrarian SOB also means > facing up to my own personal demons. I have had many to wrestle with in > my short 54 years of life. It's also been my experience that personal > demons when given a chance prefer to remain externalized, most likely as > a way to protect myself from portions of myself I'm not comfortable > owning up to. > > S%#T happens. It is only human to F%#K up. S%#T happens in the world as > well, most likely because we humans have a tendency to occasionally > misinterpret human events, and as a result F%#K things up. It was a > S#%TTY, horrible thing to witness two towers fall from the sky, > complements of a band of terrorists who remained faithful to their > instant deaths and ultimate rewards in heaven, convinced that god was on > their side - as if a massive invisible divine hand had simply chosen to > squash the two buildings in the middle of a beautiful September autumn > morning. WHY? How could this happen? There had to be a reason! WHOSE TO > BLAME? ...For something this horrible to have transpired there MUST have > been a methodical nefarious plan in place. It's just too horrible to > believe otherwise. > > Am I implying that a need to believe in missiles and strategically > implanted thermite explosives are just attempts to externalize a > horrible event too S%#tty to believe could have possibly been executed > otherwise? Yeah, I suppose so. As long as we externalize the emotional > trauma attributed to the WTC collapse as the result of missiles and/or > explosives, at least we won't have to wrestle with another personal > demon that every time we pay for an air ticket and take our seats in a > passenger jet that we are contributing the kinetic energy of our own > helpless bodies to a potential terrorist bomb capable of killing > thousands of people and leveling tall buildings in a flash of an eye. > Yeah, it HAD to have been missiles ...yeah, and explosives too. Yeah, > that's the ticket. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:17:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJHJ8W018707; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:17:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJHDNW018630; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:17:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:17:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:13:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've also heard Iran has to import gasoline because their oil refining capacity is limited. Harry Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> >> The Iranians are destroying their own oil fields >> without help from us. Their fields are in such poor shape from >> mismanagement and bad technology that the country will soon not be able >> to produce enough for its own domestic consumption. > > Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be > interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? > > I've read a number of times that Iranian claims that they want nuclear > power to generate electricity doesn't pass the "laugh test". Well, if > their oils is really running out that fast, maybe the ones who said that > (mostly American officials, IIRC) were just trying to laugh off the > possibility that Iran really _does_ want nuclear energy for something > besides building bombs. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:24:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJO7Tp022680; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:24:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJO6pV022667; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:24:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:24:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:20:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: No Thermite ? In-reply-to: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > No thermite, right? > > Come on Patriot-Actors and assorted skeptics... I can hear you muttering > it already, even over cybespace: "Maybe the image has been photoshopped" > > riiight.... > > http://69.55.11.240/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=138415&Disp=385 > This is just my opinion...but It looks a bit like a layer of melted aluminium on steel. The aluminium could have come from the plane. I've seen what melted aluminium siding looks like after my parents garage burned down. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:32:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJVvps007199; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:31:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJVtb3007155; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:31:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:31:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=D8Byr5UkbsjWaMyWXkt9GOGHY3SvG3apN+GSqc0EKforzf07gEkpvYfrozpG5XH6qdVaSsTymjKwIYok8ILz+APsOjIqEU0+WfR/++MWtZd0nrWx60W4uw8ZBKuSi1hs4sIcx5zV4JiMBXB6xFMD7kHbfwYHtHPx09u/QKHd9Hg= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:31:51 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: not a skeptic, but, with the flow inside and out of the girder almost even, that one looks more like it sheared off at an angle, and then molten metal dripped over it. and, as someone that uses the stuff, that is NOT what thermite leftovers looks like. On 2/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > No thermite, right? > > Come on Patriot-Actors and assorted skeptics... I can hear you muttering > it already, even over cybespace: "Maybe the image has been photoshopped" > > riiight.... > > http://69.55.11.240/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=138415&Disp=385 > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:49:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJmxdo016086; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:48:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJmwJC016075; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:48:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DB50A6.9030709@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:48:54 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: NIST cuts through the Twin Towers BS References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220115409.036fea88@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220115409.036fea88@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here is the antidote to the nonsense published here and elsewhere by > conspiracy theorists: > > http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm > > Example: > > "As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times > show that: > > “… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal > resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. > The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large > building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to > absorb that energy through energy of deformation. > > Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little > resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building > mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as > seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling > mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which > were unable to arrest the moving mass.” > > In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the > 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the > supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the > static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the > downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the > structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even > to slow the falling mass. Obviously this not exactly correct as written -- an impact with a stationary mass must slow a moving mass, simply by conservation of momentum. However, it's worth taking a moment to consider something I've seen several people say, in this group and elsewhere: "If each floor had delayed the fall by only one second, then..." Simple physics says each floor wouldn't delay the fall by anywhere near one second. The floors are something like 18 feet apart, yes? Time to free-fall 18 feet is roughly 1 second. But after 1 second, the freefalling object is moving at about 32 feet/second. Impact on the floor below travels through the structure at the speed of sound, which we can take to be infinite for this analysis, since it requires only a tiny fraction of a second for the shock to get to all support points of the newly impacted floor. Either the supports break (essentially instantly) or they don't. If they don't, then the fall is arrested, and the collapse stops right there. If they do, they break at the moment of maximum stress, which, again, is when the first, largest shock wave gets to them, which is essentially at the moment of impact. So the combined mass continues on its way almost immediately, but now it's only moving at 16 feet/second, because it has the same momentum but double the mass. We would like to know how long the combined mass will take to fall another 18 feet; with an initial velocity of v0, and acceleration of "g", and a distance to fall of X feet, I make it about dt = [-v0 + sqrt(v0^2 + 2gX)]/g (where I took the positive square root for reasons of realism). Plugging this into a spreadsheet, the time for the combined mass to traverse the next 18 feet will be 0.66 seconds, versus 0.44 seconds if it feel freely: the delay is about 0.22 seconds. The delay due to striking the third floor and bringing it up to speed will be about 0.11 seconds -- just half the delay due to the impact with the second floor. With each successive floor, the effect of adding a another floor to the "package" becomes smaller, and the total reduction below free-fall speed is clearly going to be a whole lot smaller than the result of the naive speculation, "Suppose the mass hesitated for a second at each floor...". I haven't pushed this crude back-of-the-envelope calculation through to see how well it agrees with the actual reported speed of descent but looking at the results of the first three floors, and realizing that, as the falling mass increases, the effect of each succeeding floor _must_ become rapidly smaller, an observed fall speed which was nearly equal to free-fall doesn't sound unreasonable. > The downward momentum felt by each successive > lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass." > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:53:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJrWEi014391; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:53:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJrUxL014372; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:53:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:53:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220145111.0370c4a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:53:18 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19669468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_19669468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >This is just my opinion...but It looks a bit like a layer of melted >aluminium on steel. The aluminium could have come from the plane. That is what NIST concluded. See the ref. I posted previously: 11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow? NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. . . . NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning." - Jed --=====================_19669468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Harry Veeder wrote:

This is just my opinion...but It looks a bit like a layer of melted
aluminium on steel. The aluminium could have come from the plane.

That is what NIST concluded. See the ref. I posted previously:


11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. . . .

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning."

- Jed
--=====================_19669468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:54:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KJsUJD019731; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:54:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KJsT05019706; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:54:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:54:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DB51F1.9020708@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:54:25 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc. References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220103049.02c525d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220103049.02c525d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070220/to213.html?.v=43 > > Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc. > Tuesday February 20, 9:00 am ET > Trading Symbol: SDWM:OTCBB > > VANCOUVER, Feb. 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ - Shadow Marketing Inc. > (OTCBB: SDWM - News > ) is pleased to announce that it > has delivered a written offer to purchase up to a 100% interest in > D2Fusion, Inc., a private California corporation, from its parent > company, Solar Energy Ltd. > > D2Fusion, Inc., which is based in Foster City, California, and Los > Alamos, New Mexico, is a research and development company staffed by > scientists and engineers working toward the delivery of proprietary > solid-state fusion aimed at entry level heat and energy applications for > homes and industry. Additional information regarding its technology and > operations may be found on its website at www.d2fusion.com > and in the Securities & Exchange Commission > filings of Solar Energy Ltd. > > Shadow Marketing's offer follows recent discussions between its > management and the principals of Solar Energy Ltd. and D2Fusion, Inc. > The offer provides that Shadow Marketing would be required to raise > $2,000,000 in working capital to fund D2Fusion's business plan and > complete a five for one share split prior to closing. At closing, Shadow > would issue 30,000,000 post-split shares of restricted common stock to > Solar Energy Ltd. in exchange for all of the issued and outstanding > shares of D2Fusion, Inc. The principals of D2Fusion would also gain > control of Shadow Marketing's Board of Directors. Say what??? Who's buying whom here? And how is Shadow going to raise 2M$ in working capital, I wonder? This sounds reminiscent of something we heard last year about D2Fusion, doesn't it? Some deal was going to go through, also contingent on someone raising a quantity of working capital from someplace unspecified. Or am I just confused? > > Shadow Marketing Inc.'s offer to purchase is open for acceptance until > February 21, 2007. If accepted, the agreement in principle would be > replaced in due course with a formal agreement with standard > representations, warranties and conditions precedent. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 12:12:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KKCI4a032191; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:12:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KKCGvE032164; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:12:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:12:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220150143.03713598@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:12:05 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: NIST cuts through the Twin Towers BS In-Reply-To: <45DB50A6.9030709@pobox.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220115409.036fea88@mindspring.com> <45DB50A6.9030709@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8362c.A.f2H.gY12FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >So the combined mass continues on its way almost immediately, but >now it's only moving at 16 feet/second, because it has the same >momentum but double the mass. Do you mean the mass doubles because there are now two floors falling? Not quite. For one thing, the two buildings started off with 12 to 28 floors falling, so it increased to 13 and 29 respectively. For another, some of the material did not fall down directly but fell out of the sides, so it did not participate in crushing the floors below that. I do not know how much. Anyway, I am sure this analysis is basically correct, because when Controlled Demolition Inc. brings down the building it collapses almost at freefall speed. It should be understood that the Controlled Demolition engineers do not use explosives to destroy buildings. They use gravity. The explosive provide only a tiny fraction of the total energy release. Imagine you want to assassinate General Patton, so you pull a chocks out from under the wheels of a wagon to let it roll swiftly down a steep hill toward him. (See the movie.) The small amount of energy you supply pulling the chocks out is similar to the energy Controlled Demolition supplies with explosives. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 12:26:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KKQ9qt003808; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:26:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KKQ9td003799; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:26:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:26:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220121540.02e72fa8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:27:27 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc. In-Reply-To: <45DB51F1.9020708@pobox.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220103049.02c525d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <45DB51F1.9020708@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Say what??? Who's buying whom here? > >And how is Shadow going to raise 2M$ in working capital, I wonder? > >This sounds reminiscent of something we heard last year about D2Fusion, >doesn't it? Some deal was going to go through, also contingent on someone >raising a quantity of working capital from someplace unspecified. Or am I >just confused? Hi Stephen, No, I don't think you are confused. Off the top of my head, my recollection was that Russ George announced that his company, D2Fusion "had been acquired/purchased for $2M." (In the course of my investigation, I found that it appeared that there was no $2M cash, but Monopoly money in the case of debentures and stock.) But now, the story is much, much different. His "company" is for sale again and this time, Shadow does not make any claims to acquire D2Fusion for $2M, but it promises to find it somewhere.... Clear as mud? Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 12:29:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KKSxRf016528; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:28:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KKSwsD016503; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:28:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:28:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:25:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter aerodynamics In-reply-to: <1fbb01c754d7$c8fe2870$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter aerodynamics > > >> >> Yes I mean drag, but there may be other aerodynamic forces to consider. >> Also I don't think the profile is aerodynamic because the boundary is not >> crisp like a fuselage. >> >> Does gf mean g-force? If so that a percentage of the acceleration due to >> gravity or a force as in force = ma ? > > Yes, gram force, that's about 1 cN. Yes, thrust is a force. > >> The fact that a certain current coincided with lift off does not necessarily >> provide a comprehensive explanation of what makes it go. For example, the >> current drawn by spark plug does not account for the motion of the blade >> on a lawn mower. > > Ah but the ion wind force formula is not some empirical formula as you seem to > suggest -I posted Sigmond's derivation-, and it accounts for the measured lift > (=the weight since aerodynamic drag is negligible: you can see on the Excel > screenshot on the Blazelabs page that the wind speed is less than 1m/s = > 3.6km/h) within measurement errors. I do not think it is an empirical formula. However, unless the acceleration is measured you do not really know if the formula provides an adequate account of the _acceleration_ of the lifter. > That's enough proof for me, but YMMV. On the frontiers of knowledge, unlike the urbane application of existing knowledge, the right to be wrong is as important as the desire to be right. > >> Anyway, if an accelerometer were mounted on a lifter the actual dynamic >> forces involved could be estimated more accurately. > > You can also measure acceleration on the video (if you can find a way to view > it ;-). And since the mass is known you will find the force via f=ma, a good > exercise indeed. > > Michel The method would be inaccurate unless it was recorded with a high speed video camera. harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 12:31:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KKUxEA018253; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:31:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KKUvZT018219; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:30:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:30:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220151356.0371f610@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:30:39 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <45DB36E8.9080908@pacbell.net> References: <45DB36E8.9080908@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1KKUscr018173 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Like you-know-who (not Santa) it is high-time >for enforcement officials to make a list and >check it twice for these flagrant Patriot-Act scofflaws. To wit: > >Senator Max Cleland ~ Former member of the 9/11 Commission . . . A good man, but not a structural engineer. >Col. Robert Bowman, U.S. Air Force, Director of >Advanced Space Programs, PhD Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering " This guy is the only one on the list competent to judge the NIST study in detail. Did he conclude the building was brought down by explosives? Then he is a flake with a PhD, like Steve Jones. The events surrounding cold fusion have proved there are many highly educated fruitcakes and idiots in the scientific establishment -- which should come as no surprise. Or did he conclude there was a political cover-up or some other machination that would not have left physical evidence? That is another subject entirely. I am not address that issue and I have no opinion about it. >Senator Mark Dayton ~ Member, Senate Committee on Armed Services . . . >Congressman Ron Paul . . . >Congressman Curt Weldon . . . No more qualified than the cop on the corner as far as I know. Lots of Senators and others in high places have assured me with the utmost authority that cold fusion does not exist. I do not trust the judgement of people who are discussing matters in which they have no expertise or track record. >Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney . . . MY former representative! I knew her, Horatio. A woman of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy. And a certified nut, if ever there was one. This is another Steve Jones test: If McKinney says there is something to it, you can be damn sure there isn't. I will grant, a stopped clock is right twice a day . . . >Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury, Paul >Craig Roberts, PhD ~ "Distinguished national and >international scientists and scholars present >massive evidence that the 9/11 Commission Report >is a hoax and that the 9/11 "terrorist attack" >has been manipulated to serve a hegemonic agenda in the Middle East... Again, did this guy claim there is a conspiracy, or did he claim thermite was involved? If he made the latter claim, then why do you take the judgement of an economist over that of "some 200 technical experts­including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia"? Or do you think the administration bought off or frightened these 200 experts? You are acting just like U.S. and Japanese officials who take the word of Time magazine reporter over the conclusions reached by 200 electrochemists who have done 15 years of relevant research. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 12:45:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KKisDW028542; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:44:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KKirVN028529; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:44:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:44:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Whoa, Fido.... Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:44:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:44:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1KKioGk028509 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Taylor J. Smith's message of Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:26:25 +0000: Hi, [snip] >Oil futures peaked at an intraday high of $78.40 on July >14, 2006, but averaged $66.25 for 2006, compared with >$56.70 in 2005 and $41.47 per barrel in 2004. > >Now, a world oil glut appears to be developing. So Bush >will have to bomb the Iranian oil fields in order to >achieve an average 2007 price of $80 per barrel. [snip] Just threatening to, may be enough. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 12:47:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KKlRtj013722; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:47:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KKlQHx013706; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:47:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:47:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220153337.03643f28@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:47:14 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <29Ki3C.A.BWD.e512FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>The Iranians are destroying their own oil fields without help from >>us. Their fields are in such poor shape from mismanagement and bad >>technology that the country will soon not be able to produce enough >>for its own domestic consumption. > >Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually >be interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? I do not think so. If they are worried about the degradation of their oil fields (as they should be), the logical thing to do would be to spend money on new equipment and to hire experts to improve the extraction techniques. >I've read a number of times that Iranian claims that they want >nuclear power to generate electricity doesn't pass the "laugh test". I have heard that too. I know little about their politics and cannot judge, but strictly from a technical point of view, I think it would be a great idea for them to buy a nuclear power plant. This would reduce pollution and free up their natural gas for sale overseas. Also nuclear power is cheaper than any other kind, even when you are sitting on a sea of natural gas. Perhaps they run their electric power generators on oil, the way North Korea does. In that case they are burning money and it would be far cheaper to go to nuclear power or even coal. > Well, if their oils is really running out that fast, maybe the > ones who said that (mostly American officials, IIRC) were just > trying to laugh off the possibility that Iran really _does_ want > nuclear energy for something besides building bombs. The oil is not running out exactly; it is becoming permanently inaccessible because the extraction technology is bad. If they buy the latest equipment now, their reserves will last much longer. As I said, the oil is not actually lost. It is still underground, of course, but it takes as much energy to get it out as you get from burning it. In the early 20th century in the US and Russia tremendous amounts of oil were permanently lost because of "wildcatting"-style bad oil-field management, according to Deffeyes. I do not know if they are seriously interested in fission power but I do know that many Iranian scientists at universities and government research labs have downloaded the files at LENR-CANR.org, so evidently they are interested in cold fusion. I welcome their interest. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:15:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KLFdct014937; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:15:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KLFbGF014894; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:15:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0UXeVcLDew0XH69nc147gtCDwNiOCmlW8YZ6cQbHK1BMs04odp1vwOWdB7VemxlTQyrg1XWuobmtNRLwPSg53BG5L2SKxEqXoeGibq9xrwNP+bj6Kq+WHOEmcqhxBJ2vMRVVfdlQC4Q3RQ4Z3s72x+wRpdhaAnn7P2llotQ0UdU= ; X-YMail-OSG: Oa63EzgVM1n_q0XsMU.3UPQP_AnqYqeY9J8esIoWKJVGhlPlGWtGh71BhOghIqM7tPV6wOsbf4_wo1civ1K3SvdniggMC6Dq3CzMzAwusVCUH1UOz5ozFBkXdMI8ywoAV2iYTV9ZPGop80s- Message-ID: <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:15:33 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_F1IC.A.YoD.3T22FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: > not a skeptic, but, with the flow inside and out of the girder almost > even, that one looks more like it sheared off at an angle, and then > molten metal dripped over it. Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite as contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered it at all. From the NIST site: Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? Answer: NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel. IOW the only tests which were done looking for residue of thermite- those of Steven Jones FOUND thermite residue. Did he plant that residue there? Here is the only scientific report ever to consider the details of a contributory agent: http://physics911.net/thermite But the report is careful not to say that there was thermite present since NO AGENCY including NIST had ever tested for the residue. Steven Jones was the first to test for it - and he found it. Not conclusive - but once again - it is making the case to reopen the shoddy NIST investigation with a true scientific investigation > and, as someone that uses the stuff, that is NOT what thermite > leftovers looks like. Hmm. Would you care to explain that. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:40:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KLe2rg028845; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:40:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KLe1b1028819; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:40:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:40:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=cfCCrX7bNszeNluIwnffOI7Xmkqqdkmh/wiQitg5PP/n5hePDrBmCInk2HgSUOFQ; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:39:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609f5c01f508a3255ad9d5d414fc3476e0b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been sitting back in total OH!! over this thread. I have even had Night Mares ('Scientists Gone Wild') SO if I understand what has been going on, (Maybe) It's felt the Bush Admin is implementing a what? (State), Communist? Okay if you all feel this (the ones that are so adamant about it, what is the trade off? Pure BS Socialism? Guess if you live CA that is what you want or believe in. How in the world did a scientist get the idea he/she was in any position to get involved in politics or region? Gentleman your colors are showing.... Vort(s)! What happened to Science? I can not say it more clearly, this is "CRAP" > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:16 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? > > > leaking pen wrote: > > not a skeptic, but, with the flow inside and out of the girder almost > > even, that one looks more like it sheared off at an angle, and then > > molten metal dripped over it. > > Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite as > contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered it at > all. From the NIST site: > > Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being > brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for > explosives or thermite residues? > > Answer: NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel. > > IOW the only tests which were done looking for residue of thermite- > those of Steven Jones FOUND thermite residue. Did he plant that residue > there? > > Here is the only scientific report ever to consider the details of a > contributory agent: > > http://physics911.net/thermite > > But the report is careful not to say that there was thermite present > since NO AGENCY including NIST had ever tested for the residue. > > Steven Jones was the first to test for it - and he found it. > > Not conclusive - but once again - it is making the case to reopen the > shoddy NIST investigation with a true scientific investigation > > > > and, as someone that uses the stuff, that is NOT what thermite > > leftovers looks like. > > Hmm. Would you care to explain that. > > Jones > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: > 2/16/2007 2:25 PM > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 2:25 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:47:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KLlCwV031202; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:47:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KLlBIo031175; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:47:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:47:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:46:18 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite >as contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered >it at all. From the NIST site: > >Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being >brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for >explosives or thermite residues? And why didn't they look? Two reasons: one stated in the report and one so obvious it hardly needs to be listed, because it puts the whole idea into Lala land: 1. As stated it would take thousands of pounds, "placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building." NIST calls this "unlikely" to be polite. I would call it ridiculous. 2. Suppose, for the sake of argument, thermite was used. Let us look at the facts: We know where the destruction began: right on the floors struck by the airplanes. You can see this from the videos, and the physical evidence. The destruction did not start above those floors, or below them. There would be no point to installing thermite on the lower floors because the falling building had more than enough energy to destroy itself. As I said, putting thermite on the lower floors would be a complete waste, and it would accomplish nothing. (Not to mention the fact that the work would almost certainly be discovered while in progress, which would reveal the plot.) It would be like shooting a missile into the building a moment before an airplane hits it with thousands of times more kinetic energy than the missile supplies. SO, the only place you could put thermite would be on the exact floor where the airplane was going to strike, and the only reason to put it there would be to ensure that the building falls in case the airplane does not supply enough energy. PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit? That is impossible to predict! The kamikaze jihad pilots barely managed hit the buildings. Do you think they could have struck the exact right floor in coordination with the people who installed the thermite weeks before? That is preposterous. Looking for thermite is exactly like looking for a chemical reaction in a cold fusion cell that might produce 100 MJ per 1 g of palladium. It is so fundamentally impossible, and so far-fetched and obviously wrong that no sensible expert would even entertain the idea long enough to bother checking. You might as well demand that we look for evidence that Martians caused the destruction. Let's apply a little common sense in this analysis. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:51:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KLpEpo032731; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:51:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KLpCFF032714; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:51:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:51:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WMhs54YX1koltWy3bBYz+L5LdiHCdC83zmhvYy3Ktpejw68lUUTSpCLSc/OcPQoKxd8jK58tjjcoR+VCI2JfSx/l92HGbKCF7NZZbSRH0tH6JhoeuutCb3po5c7SQej6M1q2wxirX2PfaMWcZ3j+oc1PW1Gc+D3jHpxUm1nBbOY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kUXAnYyxMj3feTpYyX5ev9BCidxcF/BImD4SMEhOFKgRfb6080rq87b02vFnYRwT+XFfZ+idkIqdBwErdtxdrgXF1hXZItbB+eg3Mluc6yT73V/sD+ybia1a/HL/h0+FS86REFjI1m2Tw9qiimMgcAq5WAIL2zZhIaGLv9BQnqg= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:51:11 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-f-eRC.A.C_H.Q122FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, thermite, at least the more comonly used stuff, is iron II oxide and aluminum powder. it reduces the aluminum to aluminum oxide, and creates molten iron. So you get molten iron, which cools black and lumpy, and you get a blackish purplish slag laying on top of it, which is the aluminum oxide. the cooled metal there looks to me like melted cooled aluminum, not iron. its too smooth, thin, and silvery. On 2/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > not a skeptic, but, with the flow inside and out of the girder almost > > even, that one looks more like it sheared off at an angle, and then > > molten metal dripped over it. > > Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite as > contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered it at > all. From the NIST site: > > Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being > brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for > explosives or thermite residues? > > Answer: NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel. > > IOW the only tests which were done looking for residue of thermite- > those of Steven Jones FOUND thermite residue. Did he plant that residue > there? > > Here is the only scientific report ever to consider the details of a > contributory agent: > > http://physics911.net/thermite > > But the report is careful not to say that there was thermite present > since NO AGENCY including NIST had ever tested for the residue. > > Steven Jones was the first to test for it - and he found it. > > Not conclusive - but once again - it is making the case to reopen the > shoddy NIST investigation with a true scientific investigation > > > > and, as someone that uses the stuff, that is NOT what thermite > > leftovers looks like. > > Hmm. Would you care to explain that. > > Jones > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:51:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KLpUDf000602; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:51:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KLpTo5000586; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:51:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:51:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Ktr87kDihc8E3hVEyfnpr5Q2ulV0KyTueAhXi57Y1kEd9dmhV98hkl+LcyB8HuxbcSwwpscE0pkziUDgxR0s5fPiLhZqDtwT4b/n/awrmVHQmTHbdSSHOPwqMTt0/DKCJq5gY+Ig+VKeE1+GqYsWjDAYr3NkDKqGv/JI0Le5JmA= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:51:27 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_55448_31876964.1172008287508" References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_55448_31876964.1172008287508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > No thermite, right? > > Come on Patriot-Actors and assorted skeptics... I can hear you muttering > it already, even over cybespace: "Maybe the image has been photoshopped" > > riiight.... > > http://69.55.11.240/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=138415&Disp=385 You are entitled to your opinion; however, I once worked as a millwright and these look like oxyacetylene cuts. 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Yes, a good man with enough guts to stand up for injustice where he sees it - and with whom hundreds of structural engineers agree - specifically about the shoddy quality of the rubber-stamp work done by the 9/11 commission and even shoddier NIST work. It is unconscionable that they would not even have tested for thermite ! which they could do with saved samples - even today. >> Col. Robert Bowman, U.S. Air Force, Director of Advanced Space >> Programs, PhD Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering " > This guy is the only one on the list competent to judge the NIST study > in detail. > Did he conclude the building was brought down by explosives? Then he is > a flake with a PhD, like Steve Jones. Why do we need that kind of comment in a serious discussion? Why the ad hominem? Hey, if you vehemence here is some kind of show ... say, trying to somehow divorce yourself, as a spokesperson for one controversial subject (LENR) -- from what is perceived to be the far-fringe which accepts all sorts of pathological science - [am I getting warm?} in the false hope that a show-of-support for the mainstream in this instance will help to somehow legitimize cold fusion ...... by demonstrating that LENR does not attract only a certain type of scientist - then you are not succeeding, IMHO. Steven Jones, PhD ... and Col. Robert Bowman, USAF Director of Advanced Space Programs, PhD would both - if given the opportunity be very quick and very likely to counter that you are ... well, at least acting like a gullible flake but without a PhD. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:00:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KM0B7O004208; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KM0AoH004194; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tvQxRLVpygnL3zMNPRE/qXNNiXR5S2sF0v0ceqpRkqPwuVq1Od5kcVm8hFJq6hKY1Ri8weWmbzjJgL1GzOb+vq09xgh8VFCuUujvTksTgbiYqZAKL6sTMYspV29QmXZNOVjYpwQdRpknu6HOteiuTJvniPFwRkyybu4yUk7+r/M= ; X-YMail-OSG: bTX28toVM1mZ339AqXCj8_aJKDCjlrNU2U2RJT5vnR4SjN7zbWUlzmeewHcMSQDtWwB7FtUyXgxesUpP5MSuZwkwlQvMrpUeY__EBdmMPvoJNMm5b4X2YQL58FadF0Pn_G8LaM7OOZjYzSE- Message-ID: <45DB6F67.4000009@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:07 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite >> as contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered it >> at all. From the NIST site: >> >> Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being >> brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for >> explosives or thermite residues? > > And why didn't they look? Two reasons: one stated in the report and one > so obvious it hardly needs to be listed, because it puts the whole idea > into Lala land: Total baloney and crap. It would have required a de minimis effort to do this kind of testing. Three or four hours of lab time for initial results and then several confirmation tests. If S. Jones is correct, and the evidence is there - then we can only conclude logically that NIST did do the testing, but political pressures have forced them into further lies - compounded lies on top of the original lies - - which is basically what that list of high-level critics of this work have been saying for years. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:00:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KM0OpO014173; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KM0NJR014156; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:00:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:59:40 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029013A9@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Thread-Index: AcdVN6SbfbF6DedtRMywrpIHEU8ZTwAAnEbw From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 21:59:37.0331 (UTC) FILETIME=[69B56C30:01C7553A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1KM0LuT014130 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow! Somebody found rust and aluminum at the WTC? Well, that proves it for me! The author of this document believes in "scalar EM" weapons. Beardenism strikes again, alas -----Original Message----- From: Stiffler Scientific [mailto:stifflerscientific@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 4:40 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? I have been sitting back in total OH!! over this thread. I have even had Night Mares ('Scientists Gone Wild') SO if I understand what has been going on, (Maybe) It's felt the Bush Admin is implementing a what? (State), Communist? Okay if you all feel this (the ones that are so adamant about it, what is the trade off? Pure BS Socialism? Guess if you live CA that is what you want or believe in. How in the world did a scientist get the idea he/she was in any position to get involved in politics or region? Gentleman your colors are showing.... Vort(s)! What happened to Science? I can not say it more clearly, this is "CRAP" > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:16 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? > > > leaking pen wrote: > > not a skeptic, but, with the flow inside and out of the girder > > almost even, that one looks more like it sheared off at an angle, > > and then molten metal dripped over it. > > Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite > as contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered it > at all. From the NIST site: > > Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being > brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for > explosives or thermite residues? > > Answer: NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel. > > IOW the only tests which were done looking for residue of thermite- > those of Steven Jones FOUND thermite residue. Did he plant that > residue there? > > Here is the only scientific report ever to consider the details of a > contributory agent: > > http://physics911.net/thermite > > But the report is careful not to say that there was thermite present > since NO AGENCY including NIST had ever tested for the residue. > > Steven Jones was the first to test for it - and he found it. > > Not conclusive - but once again - it is making the case to reopen the > shoddy NIST investigation with a true scientific investigation > > > > and, as someone that uses the stuff, that is NOT what thermite > > leftovers looks like. > > Hmm. Would you care to explain that. > > Jones > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: > 2/16/2007 2:25 PM > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 2:25 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:02:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KM1p4S004806; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KM1ob4004790; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=O2cBHM3I3h4//aY15Hip4NTBNLVh6h2uDI9QiYnqqS+WnBv5KBNGBwJV/yquNgpYQ+U2z9scz4qBzvnHxmGk272Op7b9ejJjE7PoZuWQyDWctnyfg0BYZKXPB5KHJOdZLIKy/GxxBlq3QRvR3NavmiGTUON4Y+jr4lKujed0OgI= ; X-YMail-OSG: 1dtat0EVM1kxWGF27S3KMMrBKBzaPDQHOeVA0YmsIxxMeKI0fllB_SKUhCOHqIroJJ1fh0nEKiFcOhK08kMWkGAiU0kpqmKbscmKT9ilG5taohv9PLM3SeYZFykdZxuLy_4poWV2xMRikw-- Message-ID: <45DB6FCB.9080502@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:47 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stiffler Scientific wrote: > I can not say it more clearly, this is "CRAP" Agreed. And who needs a flame war on top of "crap." This is my last posting on this subject. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:07:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KM7ID3007335; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:07:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KM7HB7007317; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:07:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:07:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TjHCSx0WSZQvkJtzQPamKboZdJHekHtwTFYo8meximgptPMC6wpv2GqpLhrNlfJMCCBTb8/vv2DBDMD3FzUPhOMFbqKA5HK+f/SlsjGyw2azqpk4sK/+GDjclV/GOQr6iqwAVRMpnNTcJ5XYYHZp/3DcoqApQyxIgGXEQABKBYk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:07:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <-vcQq.A.JyB.UE32FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/20/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be > interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? A 50 MW heavy water reactor?? Surely you jest. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:14:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KME7Xc009671; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:14:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KME7Qo009660; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:14:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:14:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GIwzf+MHoZNsavNJi6Anz/g6Pp+yY8qTlWy0vDgcePwxm5SG6YzlTZ3lwT2lTMmuVJHHYl36J0a/4op0rdcWpONPLY590iSDceEfy7PDh6la6nJhc2RiJP6nvdRV23bBycmMViCBUL9aclJtLKsIselVNJmSVspGfMzUhwJy5K8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:14:05 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DB6F67.4000009@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> <45DB6F67.4000009@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4qm1-B.A.4WC.uK32FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: of course, the traces of thermite are , again, iron, aluminum, and the oxides of each. ohh, and high heat. i think its safe to say the site was FULL of said materials. (besides, the sheared angle of the broken girder looks more like a shaped charge explosive cutting through. which would have been faster, more controllable, and easier to hide. On 2/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > >> Exactly. Anyone who says the NIST report somehow eliminated thermite > >> as contributory agent is seriously in error. They never considered it > >> at all. From the NIST site: > >> > >> Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being > >> brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for > >> explosives or thermite residues? > > > > And why didn't they look? Two reasons: one stated in the report and one > > so obvious it hardly needs to be listed, because it puts the whole idea > > into Lala land: > > > Total baloney and crap. It would have required a de minimis effort to do > this kind of testing. Three or four hours of lab time for initial > results and then several confirmation tests. > > If S. Jones is correct, and the evidence is there - then we can only > conclude logically that NIST did do the testing, but political pressures > have forced them into further lies - compounded lies on top of the > original lies - > > - which is basically what that list of high-level critics of this work > have been saying for years. > > Jones > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:15:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KMF8TV009948; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:15:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KMF6mN009914; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:15:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:15:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aC1JVZ0biKX7wbjSrVhZKfgB5rIcVZJAoPfLOh9h1/hvn7wvnuePaGnEbv0gVXuwgUv34GwsGkhCKWUDroEi+2sNAGgmWKgJU/jWNFPGCsAOg08Q3HkpOcVE6z5qXiM0QfTLViUXJ8/SXnOf1YUU8QdPIxXvwWp+JQCQI7xtMEk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:15:03 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Finger Pointing In-Reply-To: <45DB6E04.5020800@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45DB36E8.9080908@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220151356.0371f610@mindspring.com> <45DB6E04.5020800@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > >> Senator Max Cleland ~ Former member of the 9/11 Commission . . . > > > A good man, but not a structural engineer. > > Yes, a good man with enough guts to stand up for injustice where he sees > it - I'm sorry, but I got a horrible laugh from this. Max signed my first PE license with his only working limb (unless his secretary knows something we don't.) Jones, it's over. Get back to saving the world, not condemning the idiots in power. I doubt that GWB is more guilty than FDR; besides, it's the Brotherhood who is in control. (Have you read Bramley?) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:18:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KMIf1F011689; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:18:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KMIeUN011676; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:18:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:18:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220165336.036e7380@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:18:16 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4231390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4231390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit? That is >impossible to predict! Some other problems, equally severe, equally obvious: How do you make the thermite work when there are thousands of gallons of flaming kerosene around it, collapsing walls, no remaining telephone connections, and so on? NIST supposes it would be "remotely ignited and somehow held in direct contact." Imagine trying to do this on the floor of a building that has been struck by airplane. Suppose it is not done remotely, but by extra suicide volunteers standing by ready to ignite the stuff and hold it next to the pillars. They would be killed instantly, before they could operate the equipment. As I said, installing thermite in the lower floors would contribute nothing to the destruction, and serve no purpose. But let us pretend that the conspirators were extremely stupid and they thought you need to cut more than one floor. (We are talking about someone in the Bush administration, which includes some fairly stupid people, and for that matter bin Laden himself did not think the building would fall down even though he is an engineer.) Okay, so even though it is hard to imagine an engineer who thinks the building could survive one floor dropping onto a lower floor, let's say they put several thousand pounds of thermite on a lower floor. How do they coordinate the thermite cutting with the collapse? Two problems: 1. No one could predict the exact moment when the building would start to fall. You cannot coordinate. If you cut too soon your section of the building starts to fall first -- and everyone see that; if you cut too late you are crushed by the falling building and you contribute nothing. 2. It takes a long time to cut a steel beam with thermite. Hours, actually, but let's pretend it is 20 minutes. Suppose they magically know exactly when the building is going to fall; they still have to start cutting 20 minutes earlier. People would notice a new raging fire in progress on a lower floor as thousands of pounds of thermite went off. You could not hide that, especially with hundreds of television cameras pointed to the building, and hundreds of police and firemen swarming through the place. I could probably think of several other equally compelling common-sense reasons to reject this hypothesis, but the whole notion is so outlandish it is a waste of time to consider it. I am sure the people at NIST felt that way, and they were right. It is, as I said, like spending your time looking for a chemical reaction to explain cold fusion. You should dismiss that hypothesis from the get-go. - Jed --=====================_4231390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit? That is impossible to predict!

Some other problems, equally severe, equally obvious:

How do you make the thermite work when there are thousands of gallons of flaming kerosene around it, collapsing walls, no remaining telephone connections, and so on? NIST supposes it would be "remotely ignited and somehow held in direct contact." Imagine trying to do this on the floor of a building that has been struck by airplane. Suppose it is not done remotely, but by extra suicide volunteers standing by ready to ignite the stuff and hold it next to the pillars. They would be killed instantly, before they could operate the equipment.

As I said, installing thermite in the lower floors would contribute nothing to the destruction, and serve no purpose. But let us pretend that the conspirators were extremely stupid and they thought you need to cut more than one floor. (We are talking about someone in the Bush administration, which includes some fairly stupid people, and for that matter bin Laden himself did not think the building would fall down even though he is an engineer.) Okay, so even though it is hard to imagine an engineer who thinks the building could survive one floor dropping onto a lower floor, let's say they put several thousand pounds of thermite on a lower floor. How do they coordinate the thermite cutting with the collapse? Two problems:

1. No one could predict the exact moment when the building would start to fall. You cannot coordinate. If you cut too soon your section of the building starts to fall first -- and everyone see that; if you cut too late you are crushed by the falling building and you contribute nothing.

2. It takes a long time to cut a steel beam with thermite. Hours, actually, but let's pretend it is 20 minutes. Suppose they magically know exactly when the building is going to fall; they still have to start cutting 20 minutes earlier. People would notice a new raging fire in progress on a lower floor as thousands of pounds of thermite went off. You could not hide that, especially with hundreds of television cameras pointed to the building, and hundreds of police and firemen swarming through the place.

I could probably think of several other equally compelling common-sense reasons to reject this hypothesis, but the whole notion is so outlandish it is a waste of time to consider it. I am sure the people at NIST felt that way, and they were right. It is, as I said, like spending your time looking for a chemical reaction to explain cold fusion. You should dismiss that hypothesis from the get-go.

- Jed
--=====================_4231390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 14:50:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KMo8YX021334; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:50:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KMo7WZ021326; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:50:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:50:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220173005.03681db0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:49:54 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6112375==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_6112375==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit? I meant "what floor the airplane is going to hit." Sorry about that. >>Did he conclude the building was brought down by explosives? Then >>he is a flake with a PhD, like Steve Jones. > >Why do we need that kind of comment in a serious discussion? Why the >ad hominem? Actually, this is not ad hominem. Calling into question a person's qualifications to make a technical judgment, or pointing out that he has no relevant experience, or that he has made grievous errors in previous similar technical arguments is a valid criticism. It was intemperate, and it was an Appeal to Ridicule which is a logical fallacies, but not ad hominem. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ "An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. . . . The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made)." Also, by the way, I have not committed an Appeal to Authority error, but Jones did: "An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true. This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious. This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. . . ." Jones committed this fallacy by pointing to people like Max Cleland in a discussion of thermite. I point to real experts in the subject, at NIST. If we are discussing high-level Washington conspiracies then Cleland is as expert. That's a different topic. >Hey, if you vehemence here is some kind of show ... say, trying to >somehow divorce yourself, as a spokesperson for one controversial >subject (LENR) . . . Nothing like that. I oppose the 9/11 thermite hypotheses on the same grounds that I support cold fusion: because experts are right. (Usually.) In both cases we have unqualified flakes contradicting careful expert research with bogus reasons. Also, let me get make it clear that I have no opinion about the likelihood of a conspiracy by the administration. That has nothing to do with this discussion. The only question at issue here is: what caused the building to fall? Not who caused it, or why, but only how. It was the airplanes. - Jed --=====================_6112375==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit?

I meant "what floor the airplane is going to hit." Sorry about that.


Did he conclude the building was brought down by explosives? Then he is a flake with a PhD, like Steve Jones.

Why do we need that kind of comment in a serious discussion? Why the ad hominem?

Actually, this is not ad hominem. Calling into question a person's qualifications to make a technical judgment, or pointing out that he has no relevant experience, or that he has made grievous errors in previous similar technical arguments is a valid criticism. It was intemperate, and it was an Appeal to Ridicule which is a logical fallacies, but not ad hominem. See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

"An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. . . .

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made)."

Also, by the way, I have not committed an Appeal to Authority error, but Jones did:

"An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. . . ."

Jones committed this fallacy by pointing to people like Max Cleland in a discussion of thermite. I point to real experts in the subject, at NIST.

If we are discussing high-level Washington conspiracies then Cleland is as expert. That's a different topic.



Hey, if you vehemence here is some kind of show ... say, trying to somehow divorce yourself, as a spokesperson for one controversial subject (LENR) . . .

Nothing like that. I oppose the 9/11 thermite hypotheses on the same grounds that I support cold fusion: because experts are right. (Usually.) In both cases we have unqualified flakes contradicting careful expert research with bogus reasons.

Also, let me get make it clear that I have no opinion about the likelihood of a conspiracy by the administration. That has nothing to do with this discussion. The only question at issue here is: what caused the building to fall? Not who caused it, or why, but only how. It was the airplanes.

- Jed
--=====================_6112375==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 15:14:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KNCwJG004768; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:12:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KNCGDH004235; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:12:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:12:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:11:55 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0BWLYD.A.GCB.QB42FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be >>interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? > >A 50 MW heavy water reactor?? Ah. Is that what they want to build? Google describes it: "New satellite imagery obtained by ISIS from Space Imaging and DigitalGlobe supports the Iranian statement and other statements of unnamed sources that, "Iran has laid the foundations for the research reactor at Arak," as reported by Reuters on March 3, 2005. . . . The Europeans have offered to replace the heavy water reactor with a light water research reactor that would be more proliferation resistant." I thought they wanted a conventional power reactor, which, as I said, makes sense even though they have lots of natural gas. A 50 MW unit has nothing to do with energy generation, as Terry points out. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 15:37:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KNaxhR023108; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:36:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KNavxe023088; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:36:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:36:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:33:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2XbSE.A.soF.ZY42FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > >>> Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be >>> interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? >> >> A 50 MW heavy water reactor?? > > Ah. Is that what they want to build? Google describes it: > > "New satellite imagery obtained by ISIS from Space Imaging and > DigitalGlobe supports the Iranian statement and other statements of > unnamed sources that, "Iran has laid the foundations for the research > reactor at Arak," as reported by Reuters on March 3, 2005. . . . The > Europeans have offered to replace the heavy water reactor with a > light water research reactor that would be more proliferation resistant." > > I thought they wanted a conventional power reactor, which, as I said, > makes sense even though they have lots of natural gas. A 50 MW unit > has nothing to do with energy generation, as Terry points out. > > - Jed > Well you have to begin somewhere. For example, Canada's first reactor for power production was the 20 MW Nuclear Power Demonstration (NPD) Reactor. It operated from 1962 to 1987. For more historical and technical details see: http://www.cns-snc.ca/history/npd/historical_backgrounder.html Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 15:46:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KNkEoE026782; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:46:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KNkE2t026772; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:46:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:46:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kfQaYDJ7yyjWYOqS1myxyALBTaidRih/jXq71dJY43E+Ofm9jCqpxlXtUkMYnWt+HFDGVMlvexlsrY0GS01IMBNbLNcQBU9AxuE+kuhZ/9L/Y2RlZOfCgf6h/9om+BrQpfS4Q2Rwaz8DrvKFWTymJrHle8dhxxo1Ahh3d8bX23Q= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:46:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <65I8_B.A.QiG.Gh42FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/20/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > Well you have to begin somewhere. For example, Canada's first > reactor for power production was the 20 MW Nuclear Power Demonstration (NPD) > Reactor. It operated from 1962 to 1987. > > For more historical and technical details see: > http://www.cns-snc.ca/history/npd/historical_backgrounder.html Ah, okay, Grog, maybe we could replace the log with something else round? We could call it the 'wheel'. Sheesh! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 15:50:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1KNonrZ019562; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:50:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1KNomDU019548; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:50:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:50:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220184143.036c69a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:50:41 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2atok.A.UxE.Xl42FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > I thought they wanted a conventional power reactor, which, as I said, > > makes sense even though they have lots of natural gas. A 50 MW unit > > has nothing to do with energy generation, as Terry points out. > >Well you have to begin somewhere. For example, Canada's first >reactor for power production was the 20 MW Nuclear Power Demonstration (NPD) >Reactor. It operated from 1962 to 1987. If they want to contribute to nuclear power research I suppose they might want a 50 MW unit. I doubt they have much to contribute to that field. If they want energy they should buy a full-scale commercial model from the U.S., Japan, France or . . . Russia? Do the Russians sell these things? I suppose the US is embargoing them. As you see, I have not been following the story. The US is supposedly building a power reactor in North Korea, which is shown periodically on the Japanese NHK news. I have been paying attention to that project. It looks to me like they are building it in slow motion, and taking so long as it will fall down before it is finished. They are using wheelbarrows to pour concrete, one load at a time. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 16:20:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L0KiB3019357; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:20:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L0KgqS019343; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:20:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:20:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20d401c7554e$1e1a7950$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220173005.03681db0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:20:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1L0Ke2Y019302 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? > I meant "what floor the airplane is going to hit." Sorry about that. Err, I haven't followed the debate closely (many points escape me) but Jed's question makes sense technically, any thermite causing the collapse would have had to be installed at the floor where the collapse initiated, i.e. where the airplane hit, but how could they know which floor it was going to be? Did they plant all floors? Or did the pilots aim at a given range of planted floors? Michel (not taking sides, nor trying to revive the heated debate, just wondering what's the theory on this) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 17:15:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L1ErTD014937; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:14:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L1CqpA014258; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:12:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:12:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Dh8tF7gowTsiOhyYLgLEFGPJ+g/S+QzGV7VaGaWOP1Lgy/THJQNrrkJrLgewZJLpQciTt6YOldFAAp6A9/l7PLUnt2MxZUw1XDrafcC138nx5yEy5ZDPt+vmZVVXFCgEMZsg6i2AGYjo8nxwuT4sKrzvi2Gb55gmPsi/+Y3Vbcs= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:12:49 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <20d401c7554e$1e1a7950$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_48924_26917946.1172020369912" References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220173005.03681db0@mindspring.com> <20d401c7554e$1e1a7950$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_48924_26917946.1172020369912 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Actually it has been pointed out that there was a light (laser?) beam visible on the building which was probably used for painting the taget, the most likely would be a range of floors and they simply triggered the one hit. Go here: http://www.letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2195 On 2/21/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? > > > I meant "what floor the airplane is going to hit." Sorry about that. > > Err, I haven't followed the debate closely (many points escape me) but > Jed's question makes sense technically, any thermite causing the collapse > would have had to be installed at the floor where the collapse initiated, > i.e. where the airplane hit, but how could they know which floor it was > going to be? Did they plant all floors? Or did the pilots aim at a given > range of planted floors? > > Michel (not taking sides, nor trying to revive the heated debate, just > wondering what's the theory on this) > > > > ------=_Part_48924_26917946.1172020369912 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Actually it has been pointed out that there was a light (laser?) beam visible on the building which was probably used for painting the taget, the most likely would be a range of floors and they simply triggered the one hit.

Go here:
http://www.letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2195

On 2/21/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ?

> I meant "what floor the airplane is going to hit." Sorry about that.

Err, I haven't followed the debate closely (many points escape me) but Jed's question makes sense technically, any thermite causing the collapse would have had to be installed at the floor where the collapse initiated, i.e. where the airplane hit, but how could they know which floor it was going to be? Did they plant all floors? Or did the pilots aim at a given range of planted floors?

Michel (not taking sides, nor trying to revive the heated debate, just wondering what's the theory on this)




------=_Part_48924_26917946.1172020369912-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 17:32:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L1WcrC025373; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:32:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L1WasK025350; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:32:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c75558$27531db0$6281163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:32:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 2:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > hmmm > A sheet of paper inserted in the gap of a spark plug will > prevent my dad's lawn mower from working. Does that prove > beyond a shadow of a doubt that electricity is what powers > the lawn mower? . . . No. I really fail to see the comparison. The point is, the Lifter requires some dielectric medium of a normal physical nature (by normal, I mean, not whatever makes up "space", but gases, liquids, etc.) There is no medium of that nature in space. So, how are we supposed to travel anywhere via Lifter, if there is no medium there for it to push itself against? If you think that the Lifter will work if it is surrounded by an enclosed container with a gas inside it, to allow for ion circulation, but outside the container is the vacuum of interstellar space, then explain why it didn't produce thrust when I completely enclosed it in a large (but lightweight) dielectric shield? This is really getting ridiculous. Jean-Louis and everyone will parade around any Joe Blow who puts together a lifter with some sandwich wrap and matchsticks, and flies it from hacking into the guts of an old computer monitor, but if anyone sets out to do some real, controlled science on this thing and see what is actually going on....well, the rest is as they say, history. Myself, Michel, Xavier, etc. have all been attacked in some form for trying to do some real research into this and find out what is going on. What we found wasn't what the Lifter people wanted to hear, so *obviously* we just don't know what we are doing. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 17:43:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L1heFx001313; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:43:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L1hck2001292; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:43:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:43:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=O0tLdapnsi7pn3K4sxbVb8SWoLpYl/2230M1wmP+vBrxKA6MFdkJlrRKhq56jm3d; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <11147902.1172022214796.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:43:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c27a5f189dfd2bbf49951909a38b28372a30146a21c727840350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry writes: >Actually it has been pointed out that there was a light (laser?) beam >visible on the building which was probably used for painting the taget . . . These were amateur pilots. An experienced pilot would have great difficulty doing that. Many of the Japanese kamikaze pilots missed their targets (battleships or aircraft carriers) by a wide margin. It is remarkable that they both hit and it would be a miracle if they could see and hit a laser spot. > . . . the >most likely would be a range of floors and they simply triggered the one >hit. A range of floors? Let's say 10 floors, with 5 thouand pounds of thermite on each one. You are suggesting that the following took place: In the months leading up to the attack, someone brought in 50,000 pounds of thermite into the building without being detected. They tore down a large number of walls next to the elevators to explose the main beams around the elevator shafts. They cut through concrete with jackhammers and prepared thermite, fuses, electric wires and so on. They stockpiled a huge number of tools, which would allow them to cut several hundreds of beams per floor quickly (20 minutes or so -- a world record). While all this was happening, no one in the building noticed. Thousand of tenants walked right past this work, and lived with the noise, dust and commotion for weeks, but not a single one complained or raised questions. Hundreds of workers showed up every day on ten floors for weeks preparing the demolition, but nobody noticed. They trained maybe 500 people to do this (50 people per floor) and had them show up and remain inconspicuous even though they were wearing industrial clothing, welder's masks, gloves and so on. Then, when the airplane struck, 50 of these people miraculously survived without oxygen in roaring flames, and they went to work cutting away at the beams. And after a while they cut through the beams. Following that, even though the most intense police and forensic investigation in history was performed, and even though there were thousand of pounds of unused thermite, enough tools and equipment to fill a small factory, 500 dead people wearing heavy clothing, welder's masks and so on, on 10 floors, not a single trace of this evidence was found. Do you really think this is plausible? Do you really take this seriously? Because this is the only way this could happen. No one can hide 50,000 tons of thermite, or perform a major demolition in ten minutes. I suggest you THINK about how things really work. Stop throwing around the word "thermite" as if it was magic dust that someone can throw at a building and have it fall down minutes later. Think about how construction and demolitions are performed, how long they take, what steps are needed, where the main beams in a building are located, how a workman would access them, and so on. You will see that the scenario you imagine is utterly impossible. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 18:33:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L2WpVW006868; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:32:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L2WnIK006859; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:32:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:32:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fMLEZj9A3FZ8pyBx075emW7EnpLBqcmhs7sC/CXLEHCQv8Dt5aebZpAIl9Du9KGr2P8PsCqC9NKqsdGASbr11AvNF9VJlspDrtnceccpe0T4RdNIHd57NufEcBUbfQw4uzTqgtA/pbsp7pBtaxJ1rH6Rl7vI5FLcNQFP6BW4nAU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nI2Q38xxvVTm7p/f5gzvnllHowuLf428zu1Tth/bvXN9Q1zY3w3ZWAm7PEfEG1jfiJZCDCSjeg/0lDwAX07utc5Vgs6BPa8zbR3FDgY2xQsVfDDgmmSwgSeVQFKpOa+3Kusze8i31SXD8ewrDHr0dJmNiJMrk0z8pyaKXvsDTrE= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:32:46 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <11147902.1172022214796.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <11147902.1172022214796.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: also, 5k pounds of thermite would be required to bring it down on its own. thats not the conspiracy theory. the theory is that the thermite was used to melt the concrete and weaken teh steal, allowing the rest of the natural damage from the plane to do it. that requires substantially less thermite. On 2/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Berry writes: > > >Actually it has been pointed out that there was a light (laser?) beam > >visible on the building which was probably used for painting the taget . . . > > These were amateur pilots. An experienced pilot would have great difficulty doing that. Many of the Japanese kamikaze pilots missed their targets (battleships or aircraft carriers) by a wide margin. It is remarkable that they both hit and it would be a miracle if they could see and hit a laser spot. > > > > . . . the > >most likely would be a range of floors and they simply triggered the one > >hit. > > A range of floors? Let's say 10 floors, with 5 thouand pounds of thermite on each one. You are suggesting that the following took place: > > In the months leading up to the attack, someone brought in 50,000 pounds of thermite into the building without being detected. They tore down a large number of walls next to the elevators to explose the main beams around the elevator shafts. They cut through concrete with jackhammers and prepared thermite, fuses, electric wires and so on. They stockpiled a huge number of tools, which would allow them to cut several hundreds of beams per floor quickly (20 minutes or so -- a world record). While all this was happening, no one in the building noticed. Thousand of tenants walked right past this work, and lived with the noise, dust and commotion for weeks, but not a single one complained or raised questions. Hundreds of workers showed up every day on ten floors for weeks preparing the demolition, but nobody noticed. > > They trained maybe 500 people to do this (50 people per floor) and had them show up and remain inconspicuous even though they were wearing industrial clothing, welder's masks, gloves and so on. Then, when the airplane struck, 50 of these people miraculously survived without oxygen in roaring flames, and they went to work cutting away at the beams. And after a while they cut through the beams. > > Following that, even though the most intense police and forensic investigation in history was performed, and even though there were thousand of pounds of unused thermite, enough tools and equipment to fill a small factory, 500 dead people wearing heavy clothing, welder's masks and so on, on 10 floors, not a single trace of this evidence was found. > > Do you really think this is plausible? Do you really take this seriously? Because this is the only way this could happen. No one can hide 50,000 tons of thermite, or perform a major demolition in ten minutes. > > I suggest you THINK about how things really work. Stop throwing around the word "thermite" as if it was magic dust that someone can throw at a building and have it fall down minutes later. Think about how construction and demolitions are performed, how long they take, what steps are needed, where the main beams in a building are located, how a workman would access them, and so on. You will see that the scenario you imagine is utterly impossible. > > - Jed > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 18:38:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L2buSr026095; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:37:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L2bsSu026076; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:37:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:33:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/20/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Well you have to begin somewhere. For example, Canada's first >> reactor for power production was the 20 MW Nuclear Power Demonstration (NPD) >> Reactor. It operated from 1962 to 1987. >> >> For more historical and technical details see: >> http://www.cns-snc.ca/history/npd/historical_backgrounder.html > > Ah, okay, Grog, maybe we could replace the log with something else > round? We could call it the 'wheel'. > > Sheesh! > > Terry > USA: "Do as I say, not as I do." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 19:09:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L39gjb017273; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:09:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L39fqj017257; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:09:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=i//PU/YzJ5gmcEPUhhrl0wONa+jKPLRronJWXbMfX0VXHcUWDRr2MrptMUxJGhbqCyFO7Ybo8LacpEiLnKd02n6pPHXFOXZSGZz95jrXy6HtgHdaFzkZF64PhqCn6L/BcWa7vGVcNe2V+uNhrNDSUvnwBSa5iiXYHXDv0+DHdK4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:09:38 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <45DB46B3.2000907@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_50064_3045350.1172027378823" References: <200702201715.l1KHF3vW097648@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <45DB46B3.2000907@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_50064_3045350.1172027378823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Again until I looked into it closer I had no issue with the idea that this could be pulled off by any bunch of people with box cutters. But if you really look at the evidence.... On 2/21/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > You left something out of this armchair analysis of the psyche of those > who want to believe it was an inside job: Bigotry. > > If it was an inside job then it was Americans who destroyed our own > buildings. That's obviously possible -- evil wicked mean and nasty, but > possible. What Americans build, Americans are certainly capable of > destroying. > > On the other hand, if it wasn't an inside job, then it was a small group > of low-tech undereducated fundamentalist Muslim Arabs who did it, > despite all that the United States government could do to stop them. > That's a big lump to swallow! > > At the very least, the Arabs _must_ have had the tacit assistance of the > Bush administration, which certainly _must_ have intentionally looked > the other way while the Arabs were coming -- otherwise such a group of > mere Arabs could certainly never have pulled something like that off; > we'd have caught them at it and stopped them. Sure, that's it, we > obviously /must/ have just _let_ them do it... > > > Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > As predicted, once again there have been a lot of vocal opinions > > expressed on what were the ultimate causes for falling of the WTCs. > > There appears to be the need to include pre-fired missiles, or thermite > > explosives strategically placed within the support structures, all to > > explain the ultimate collapse of the WTCs, the rationale being, the > > passenger jets themselves just couldn't be held responsible all by > > themselves. And so, where to lay the real blame. > > > > It would seem that many in the Vort collective are by nature a > > contrarian group of individuals, myself included. I know I have made it > > a personal life-task to, more often than not, reject the prevailing > > party opinion without first looking into the matter myself. While it has > > not been easy, it has occasionally served me well too look under the > rug. > > > > Despite my desire to remain an irritating contrarian SOB I continue to > > feel that the amount of thermal energy released from the fully loaded > > fuel tanks of passenger jets, along with the jet's combined kinetic > > energy to be a plausible explanation. Nevertheless, a vocal group can > > not accept these explanations as plausible. For them, it would seem that > > there MUST be additional more sinister explanations, that missiles > > and/or strategically positioned chemical explosives had to have been > > used as well. > > > > Why? > > > > I think it's fair to say that events happen in our lives that seem to > > suggest the disquieting fact that we aren't always in control of our > > destinies. How do we deal with this conundrum? Psychologically speaking, > > there is an all-too-often tendency for many of us to externalize our > > personal discomforts, to lay-blame in the nefarious actions of others or > > events. We see this happen all the time in the political and > > international arenas. People and societies find all sorts of scapegoats > > to rationalize the problems experienced at home: The Jews are the reason > > our society is all messed up; or America, the Great Satan, is the reason > > why our society is suffering; or Secular Humanism is the reason for the > > high rates of juvenile delinquencies and high rates of pregnancies in > > our society; The Bush Dynasty is behind the orchestrated war against > > terrorism - and to prop up oil profits; missiles and strategically > > placed explosives were the real reasons why the WTCs vertically slid > > into oblivion, all within a matter of seconds. > > > > Admitting to myself that I'm an irritating contrarian SOB also means > > facing up to my own personal demons. I have had many to wrestle with in > > my short 54 years of life. It's also been my experience that personal > > demons when given a chance prefer to remain externalized, most likely as > > a way to protect myself from portions of myself I'm not comfortable > > owning up to. > > > > S%#T happens. It is only human to F%#K up. S%#T happens in the world as > > well, most likely because we humans have a tendency to occasionally > > misinterpret human events, and as a result F%#K things up. It was a > > S#%TTY, horrible thing to witness two towers fall from the sky, > > complements of a band of terrorists who remained faithful to their > > instant deaths and ultimate rewards in heaven, convinced that god was on > > their side - as if a massive invisible divine hand had simply chosen to > > squash the two buildings in the middle of a beautiful September autumn > > morning. WHY? How could this happen? There had to be a reason! WHOSE TO > > BLAME? ...For something this horrible to have transpired there MUST have > > been a methodical nefarious plan in place. It's just too horrible to > > believe otherwise. > > > > Am I implying that a need to believe in missiles and strategically > > implanted thermite explosives are just attempts to externalize a > > horrible event too S%#tty to believe could have possibly been executed > > otherwise? Yeah, I suppose so. As long as we externalize the emotional > > trauma attributed to the WTC collapse as the result of missiles and/or > > explosives, at least we won't have to wrestle with another personal > > demon that every time we pay for an air ticket and take our seats in a > > passenger jet that we are contributing the kinetic energy of our own > > helpless bodies to a potential terrorist bomb capable of killing > > thousands of people and leveling tall buildings in a flash of an eye. > > Yeah, it HAD to have been missiles ...yeah, and explosives too. Yeah, > > that's the ticket. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > ------=_Part_50064_3045350.1172027378823 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Again until I looked into it closer I had no issue with the idea that this could be pulled off by any bunch of people with box cutters.

But if you really look at the evidence....

On 2/21/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
You left something out of this armchair analysis of the psyche of those
who want to believe it was an inside job:  Bigotry.

If it was an inside job then it was Americans who destroyed our own
buildings.  That's obviously possible -- evil wicked mean and nasty, but
possible.  What Americans build, Americans are certainly capable of
destroying.

On the other hand, if it wasn't an inside job, then it was a small group
of low-tech undereducated fundamentalist Muslim Arabs who did it,
despite all that the United States government could do to stop them.
That's a big lump to swallow!

At the very least, the Arabs _must_ have had the tacit assistance of the
Bush administration, which certainly _must_ have intentionally looked
the other way while the Arabs were coming -- otherwise such a group of
mere Arabs could certainly never have pulled something like that off;
we'd have caught them at it and stopped them.  Sure, that's it, we
obviously /must/ have just _let_ them do it...


Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> As predicted, once again there have been a lot of vocal opinions
> expressed on what were the ultimate causes for falling of the WTCs.
> There appears to be the need to include pre-fired missiles, or thermite
> explosives strategically placed within the support structures, all to
> explain the ultimate collapse of the WTCs, the rationale being, the
> passenger jets themselves just couldn't be held responsible all by
> themselves. And so, where to lay the real blame.
>
> It would seem that many in the Vort collective are by nature a
> contrarian group of individuals, myself included. I know I have made it
> a personal life-task to, more often than not, reject the prevailing
> party opinion without first looking into the matter myself. While it has
> not been easy, it has occasionally served me well too look under the rug.
>
> Despite my desire to remain an irritating contrarian SOB I continue to
> feel that the amount of thermal energy released from the fully loaded
> fuel tanks of passenger jets, along with the jet's combined kinetic
> energy to be a plausible explanation. Nevertheless, a vocal group can
> not accept these explanations as plausible. For them, it would seem that
> there MUST be additional more sinister explanations, that missiles
> and/or strategically positioned chemical explosives had to have been
> used as well.
>
> Why?
>
> I think it's fair to say that events happen in our lives that seem to
> suggest the disquieting fact that we aren't always in control of our
> destinies. How do we deal with this conundrum? Psychologically speaking,
> there is an all-too-often tendency for many of us to externalize our
> personal discomforts, to lay-blame in the nefarious actions of others or
> events. We see this happen all the time in the political and
> international arenas. People and societies find all sorts of scapegoats
> to rationalize the problems experienced at home: The Jews are the reason
> our society is all messed up; or America, the Great Satan, is the reason
> why our society is suffering; or Secular Humanism is the reason for the
> high rates of juvenile delinquencies and high rates of pregnancies in
> our society; The Bush Dynasty is behind the orchestrated war against
> terrorism - and to prop up oil profits; missiles and strategically
> placed explosives were the real reasons why the WTCs vertically slid
> into oblivion, all within a matter of seconds.
>
> Admitting to myself that I'm an irritating contrarian SOB also means
> facing up to my own personal demons. I have had many to wrestle with in
> my short 54 years of life. It's also been my experience that personal
> demons when given a chance prefer to remain externalized, most likely as
> a way to protect myself from portions of myself I'm not comfortable
> owning up to.
>
> S%#T happens. It is only human to F%#K up. S%#T happens in the world as
> well, most likely because we humans have a tendency to occasionally
> misinterpret human events, and as a result F%#K things up. It was a
> S#%TTY, horrible thing to witness two towers fall from the sky,
> complements of a band of terrorists who remained faithful to their
> instant deaths and ultimate rewards in heaven, convinced that god was on
> their side - as if a massive invisible divine hand had simply chosen to
> squash the two buildings in the middle of a beautiful September autumn
> morning. WHY? How could this happen? There had to be a reason! WHOSE TO
> BLAME? ...For something this horrible to have transpired there MUST have
> been a methodical nefarious plan in place. It's just too horrible to
> believe otherwise.
>
> Am I implying that a need to believe in missiles and strategically
> implanted thermite explosives are just attempts to externalize a
> horrible event too S%#tty to believe could have possibly been executed
> otherwise? Yeah, I suppose so. As long as we externalize the emotional
> trauma attributed to the WTC collapse as the result of missiles and/or
> explosives, at least we won't have to wrestle with another personal
> demon that every time we pay for an air ticket and take our seats in a
> passenger jet that we are contributing the kinetic energy of our own
> helpless bodies to a potential terrorist bomb capable of killing
> thousands of people and leveling tall buildings in a flash of an eye.
> Yeah, it HAD to have been missiles ...yeah, and explosives too. Yeah,
> that's the ticket.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com


------=_Part_50064_3045350.1172027378823-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 19:38:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L3cEFO004549; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:38:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L3cCxQ004529; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:38:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:38:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DBBEA0.2040903@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:38:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <78nKrC.A.tGB.k672FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/20/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be >> interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? > > A 50 MW heavy water reactor?? > > Surely you jest. No jest, it was a serious question. I'm just too ignorant of the ins and outs of nuclear power to have realized it was apparently a dumb question, too. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 19:53:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L3rdVE014593; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:53:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L3rdbQ014580; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:53:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:53:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DBC23C.4020002@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:53:32 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220165336.036e7380@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220165336.036e7380@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3ci4t.A.wjD.DJ82FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >> PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit? That is >> impossible to predict! > > Some other problems, equally severe, equally obvious: > > How do you make the thermite work when there are thousands of gallons of > flaming kerosene around it, collapsing walls, no remaining telephone > connections, and so on? NIST supposes it would be "remotely ignited and > somehow held in direct contact." Imagine trying to do this on the floor > of a building that has been struck by airplane. Suppose it is not done > remotely, but by extra suicide volunteers standing by ready to ignite > the stuff and hold it next to the pillars. They would be killed > instantly, before they could operate the equipment. > > As I said, installing thermite in the lower floors would contribute > nothing to the destruction, and serve no purpose. But let us pretend > that the conspirators were extremely stupid and they /thought/ you need > to cut more than one floor. (We are talking about someone in the Bush > administration, which includes some fairly stupid people, and for that > matter bin Laden himself did not think the building would fall down even > though he is an engineer.) Jed, you have said more than once that (nearly) all the expert engineers /knew/ it would collapse. That's absolutely not what I read in the mainstream press reports: The buildings were capable of taking a hit from a good sized jet with a certain amount of jet fuel on board. Whether what actually happened was a big enough wallop to bring them down was _not_ _obvious_, to _anyone_. Opinions as to whether they would fall or not were little more than guesses, as far as I can tell. The planes they were socked with were somewhat larger than what had been imagined by the designers, _and_ they had full tanks, which put them at the upper end of lethality. But that puts it into the region where we might reasonably think there was a possibility the buildings would collapse -- it certainly doesn't make it appear inevitable, save possibly in hindsight! Again, I seriously doubt your repeated assertions that "all the experts" were convinced the buildings _WOULD_ collapse after the planes hit. That's tantamount to saying the people running the show on the ground really screwed up bigtime by not evacuating, and I don't think it's called for -- with hindsight, yeah, they were hit hard enough to bring them down. With foresight I don't think you would have found anything like a consensus among experts to the effect that they _WOULD_ fall, nor even a consensus as to what the probability of collapse would be. In fact, from what I read in the press shortly after the collapse, Bin Laden's view was shared by many of the engineers who were competent to form an opinion: It was surprising that they collapsed -- it was _NOT_ surprising they stood as long as they did. If you disagree please cite something beyond generalities and one or two examples of experts who "guessed right" about the collapse to support it. > Okay, so even though it is hard to imagine an > engineer who thinks the building could survive one floor dropping onto a > lower floor, Sure, sure, obviously if one floor falls, only God could hold up the floor underneath, but not all engineers, by a long stretch, thought /any/ of the floors would fall as a result of the impact. > let's say they put several thousand pounds of thermite on a > lower floor. How do they coordinate the thermite cutting with the > collapse? Two problems: > > 1. No one could predict the exact moment when the building would start > to fall. You cannot coordinate. If you cut too soon your section of the > building starts to fall first -- and everyone see that; if you cut too > late you are crushed by the falling building and you contribute nothing. > > 2. It takes a long time to cut a steel beam with thermite. Hours, > actually, but let's pretend it is 20 minutes. Suppose they magically > know exactly when the building is going to fall; they still have to > start cutting 20 minutes earlier. People would notice a new raging fire > in progress on a lower floor as thousands of pounds of thermite went > off. You could not hide that, especially with hundreds of television > cameras pointed to the building, and hundreds of police and firemen > swarming through the place. > > I could probably think of several other equally compelling common-sense > reasons to reject this hypothesis, but the whole notion is so outlandish > it is a waste of time to consider it. I am sure the people at NIST felt > that way, and they were right. It is, as I said, like spending your time > looking for a chemical reaction to explain cold fusion. You should > dismiss that hypothesis from the get-go. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 20:14:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L4EF4t001520; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:14:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L4EDK9001507; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:14:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qVWNQgLTDlPmvXRlOxUS6ly7J7/3C24qGjklqNH6d9EP7E4ZFPUbTqp+vPJPMRnfhFUbMBdq0sEhT/CsW0rguKP/5OPuYuviY71TCiHQoA/ZTIfw5JAyjas99OGUefsxxyBIyvpu0rOlqDVhyReocG0lCrSkL3sxtDbl1uaxLPU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JoBoHLf6Et+OLFZIS/oomcRel8ATP2G6JF7MYa8YbSSoNL5sZ51nHUIGUvoXf6yRdzpj0cQlS7xEkcpS0rLL6k3puu37P10iptQMTCEYI88a8Dyzo7uhdUU4uQ3f6e0ppMDDQXslFBZ9Kmrt2Bk4hPiPiYQK6PGs09EZvE+rzF0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:14:11 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DBC23C.4020002@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220165336.036e7380@mindspring.com> <45DBC23C.4020002@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Indeed, i recall experts being brought on teh air as the towers were burning stating they were designed to take this and more. my understanding the engineers who designed and built the suckers were shocked when they fell. On 2/20/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I wrote: > > > >> PROBLEM: How do you know what airplane is going to hit? That is > >> impossible to predict! > > > > Some other problems, equally severe, equally obvious: > > > > How do you make the thermite work when there are thousands of gallons of > > flaming kerosene around it, collapsing walls, no remaining telephone > > connections, and so on? NIST supposes it would be "remotely ignited and > > somehow held in direct contact." Imagine trying to do this on the floor > > of a building that has been struck by airplane. Suppose it is not done > > remotely, but by extra suicide volunteers standing by ready to ignite > > the stuff and hold it next to the pillars. They would be killed > > instantly, before they could operate the equipment. > > > > As I said, installing thermite in the lower floors would contribute > > nothing to the destruction, and serve no purpose. But let us pretend > > that the conspirators were extremely stupid and they /thought/ you need > > to cut more than one floor. (We are talking about someone in the Bush > > administration, which includes some fairly stupid people, and for that > > matter bin Laden himself did not think the building would fall down even > > though he is an engineer.) > > Jed, you have said more than once that (nearly) all the expert engineers > /knew/ it would collapse. > > That's absolutely not what I read in the mainstream press reports: The > buildings were capable of taking a hit from a good sized jet with a > certain amount of jet fuel on board. Whether what actually happened was > a big enough wallop to bring them down was _not_ _obvious_, to _anyone_. > Opinions as to whether they would fall or not were little more than > guesses, as far as I can tell. > > The planes they were socked with were somewhat larger than what had been > imagined by the designers, _and_ they had full tanks, which put them at > the upper end of lethality. But that puts it into the region where we > might reasonably think there was a possibility the buildings would > collapse -- it certainly doesn't make it appear inevitable, save > possibly in hindsight! > > Again, I seriously doubt your repeated assertions that "all the experts" > were convinced the buildings _WOULD_ collapse after the planes hit. > That's tantamount to saying the people running the show on the ground > really screwed up bigtime by not evacuating, and I don't think it's > called for -- with hindsight, yeah, they were hit hard enough to bring > them down. With foresight I don't think you would have found anything > like a consensus among experts to the effect that they _WOULD_ fall, nor > even a consensus as to what the probability of collapse would be. > > In fact, from what I read in the press shortly after the collapse, Bin > Laden's view was shared by many of the engineers who were competent to > form an opinion: It was surprising that they collapsed -- it was _NOT_ > surprising they stood as long as they did. > > If you disagree please cite something beyond generalities and one or two > examples of experts who "guessed right" about the collapse to support it. > > > > > Okay, so even though it is hard to imagine an > > engineer who thinks the building could survive one floor dropping onto a > > lower floor, > > > Sure, sure, obviously if one floor falls, only God could hold up the > floor underneath, but not all engineers, by a long stretch, thought > /any/ of the floors would fall as a result of the impact. > > > > let's say they put several thousand pounds of thermite on a > > lower floor. How do they coordinate the thermite cutting with the > > collapse? Two problems: > > > > 1. No one could predict the exact moment when the building would start > > to fall. You cannot coordinate. If you cut too soon your section of the > > building starts to fall first -- and everyone see that; if you cut too > > late you are crushed by the falling building and you contribute nothing. > > > > 2. It takes a long time to cut a steel beam with thermite. Hours, > > actually, but let's pretend it is 20 minutes. Suppose they magically > > know exactly when the building is going to fall; they still have to > > start cutting 20 minutes earlier. People would notice a new raging fire > > in progress on a lower floor as thousands of pounds of thermite went > > off. You could not hide that, especially with hundreds of television > > cameras pointed to the building, and hundreds of police and firemen > > swarming through the place. > > > > I could probably think of several other equally compelling common-sense > > reasons to reject this hypothesis, but the whole notion is so outlandish > > it is a waste of time to consider it. I am sure the people at NIST felt > > that way, and they were right. It is, as I said, like spending your time > > looking for a chemical reaction to explain cold fusion. You should > > dismiss that hypothesis from the get-go. > > > > - Jed > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 20:36:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L4a1kN010561; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:36:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L4a09F010530; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:36:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:36:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OiZwgGds92uqwo67oFO+gr4q9vGWT0fPUD/CS61OXJ5mStpyaL1Z3/zue5OPGR8BQbHHSQqLH6ql2cd+FMpfQY+UudHuO6B+as7AZ+v+o4tRpaxQzLFY4nPAz0XPE0/80+EMII/zBGOaVTErwDV8ttnoqrM/IpU2pShQuleWAZE= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:35:59 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Whoa, Fido.... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_50568_32868388.1172032559105" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220093145.03675840@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <8WWn3C.A.YkC.ww82FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_50568_32868388.1172032559105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/21/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > That is my point. The building was designed to withstand > a severe _horizontal_ blow, but it was not designed to withstand > a severe _downward_ blow. The inability of the structure > to withstand a vertical shock would make its future demolition > a breeze. The top portion of each tower hit the ground a little faster than if they were dropped in freefall because there isn't the head on air resistance. If you took two such tower top pieces and dropped one in free fall and one on a building, we would expect the one dropped on the building to drop slower than freefall because it has to do work, quite a bit of it to turn the building below into dust. This actually brings the subject back on topic, Free Energy! It's the only way to explain it, it was definitely giving energy to the structure below, but it didn't lose any KE! > Along the same lines, having the > > airplanes fire missiles into the building before they struck would be > > ridiculous. The energy release from a missile is trivial compared to > > the kinetic energy from an airplane, and that kinetic energy is far > > smaller than the energy release from the burning jet fuel. The fuel > > has enough potential energy to drive the aircraft for hours at close > > to the speed of sound! Firing a missile first would be like hitting > > someone with a pillow first and then hitting him with a Mack Truck > > going at 60 mph. Why bother with the pillow? > > > > A missile is effective that it can be guided to the target and it > > causes intense damage to the machine it strikes. > > > > - Jed > > > > Harry > > ------=_Part_50568_32868388.1172032559105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 2/21/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:

That is my point. The building was designed to withstand
a severe _horizontal_ blow, but it was not designed to withstand
a severe _downward_ blow. The inability of the structure
to withstand a vertical shock would make its future demolition
a breeze.

The top portion of each tower hit the ground a little faster than if they were dropped in freefall because there isn't the head on air resistance.

If you took two such tower top pieces and dropped one in free fall and one on a building, we would expect the one dropped on the building to drop slower than freefall because it has to do work, quite a bit of it to turn the building below into dust.

This actually brings the subject back on topic, Free Energy!
It's the only way to explain it, it was definitely giving energy to the structure below, but it didn't lose any KE!


> Along the same lines, having the
> airplanes fire missiles into the building before they struck would be
> ridiculous. The energy release from a missile is trivial compared to
> the kinetic energy from an airplane, and that kinetic energy is far
> smaller than the energy release from the burning jet fuel. The fuel
> has enough potential energy to drive the aircraft  for hours at close
> to the speed of sound! Firing a missile first would be like hitting
> someone with a pillow first and then hitting him with a Mack Truck
> going at 60 mph. Why bother with the pillow?
>
> A missile is effective that it can be guided to the target and it
> causes intense damage to the machine it strikes.
>
> - Jed
>

Harry


------=_Part_50568_32868388.1172032559105-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 23:10:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L79vls007095; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:09:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L79tb9007087; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:09:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:09:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:06:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <002a01c75558$27531db0$6281163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 2:06 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> hmmm >> A sheet of paper inserted in the gap of a spark plug will >> prevent my dad's lawn mower from working. Does that prove >> beyond a shadow of a doubt that electricity is what powers >> the lawn mower? > > . . . No. I really fail to see the comparison. > > The point is, the Lifter requires some dielectric medium of a normal > physical nature (by normal, I mean, not whatever makes up "space", but > gases, liquids, etc.) There is no medium of that nature in space. So, how > are we supposed to travel anywhere via Lifter, if there is no medium there > for it to push itself against? I honestly don't know how or if it can work in space. > If you think that the Lifter will work if it is surrounded by an enclosed > container with a gas inside it, to allow for ion circulation, but outside > the container is the vacuum of interstellar space, then explain why it > didn't produce thrust when I completely enclosed it in a large (but > lightweight) dielectric shield? Perhaps it won't work no matter what... but then again...perhaps an enclosed lifter will not work while it is resting on the Earth. Instead it may need to be in free fall briefly before it will work. If that turns out to be true then it will work in space. This is entirely speculative, so don't ask me to explain it at this time. > This is really getting ridiculous. Jean-Louis and everyone will parade > around any Joe Blow who puts together a lifter with some sandwich wrap and > matchsticks, and flies it from hacking into the guts of an old computer > monitor, but if anyone sets out to do some real, controlled science on this > thing and see what is actually going on....well, the rest is as they say, > history. Myself, Michel, Xavier, etc. have all been attacked in some form > for trying to do some real research into this and find out what is going on. > What we found wasn't what the Lifter people wanted to hear, so *obviously* > we just don't know what we are doing. > I am all for careful experimentation. It helps to bring issues into focus and tacit assumptions to light. If you are sure you have the right explanation why do you care what they say ? However, I get the impression you feel more resigned and annoyed than sure. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 23:44:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L7imeB030695; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:44:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L7ikvY030680; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:44:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:44:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:43:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:43:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1L7i3F7030245 Resent-Message-ID: <_MRZPB.A.UfH.uh_2FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:11:55 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>>Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be >>>interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? >> >>A 50 MW heavy water reactor?? > >Ah. Is that what they want to build? Google describes it: > >"New satellite imagery obtained by ISIS from Space Imaging and >DigitalGlobe supports the Iranian statement and other statements of >unnamed sources that, "Iran has laid the foundations for the research >reactor at Arak," as reported by Reuters on March 3, 2005. . . . The >Europeans have offered to replace the heavy water reactor with a >light water research reactor that would be more proliferation resistant." > >I thought they wanted a conventional power reactor, which, as I said, >makes sense even though they have lots of natural gas. A 50 MW unit >has nothing to do with energy generation, as Terry points out. > >- Jed [snip] AFAIK Iran is building several reactors. The big power reactor (approx. 1 GW) is at Bushehr see (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/bushehr-intro.htm). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 01:03:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1L92rwh013617; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:02:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1L92pSc013597; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:02:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <212101c75597$0f216d20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:02:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1L92m5q013573 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Iron dispensing whales scheme Status: O X-Status: Mmm, maybe we shouldn't throw out the whales with the bath water ;-) It seems to me the iron dispensing whales scheme may have its own merits, whether or not the blubber is harvested, and whether or not it can be used to control remotely the whales itinerary. I believe it constitutes, in itself, an improvement over previously considered iron fertilization schemes for the following reasons: 1/ Lower cost (costs less than ships or planes) 2/ Probably more net CO2 removed per unit mass of iron, the CO2 being immediately converted to less volatile forms of carbon than the algae themselves: total whale biomass increase and fesces dropping to the ocean bottom 3/ The planet keeps the color we are used to, the blooms being immediately harvested 4/ It's whale-friendly Does this make sense? -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:53 PM Subject: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > Steven Krivit wrote: >> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson. >> >> http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html > > So it seems iron fertilization does enhance algae growth after all, by creating more or less instantaneous blooms, and the (old) idea is not George's but Martin's like Jones said. I had no idea there was a lack of iron in the oceans, this probably means this element is the limiting factor for ocean surface algae photosynthesis. What is not clear at all if if this scheme is a net atmospheric carbon absorber in the long term, let's assume it isn't (algae re-emit GHGs when they die, so do the fish that eat them), so we still need to harvest and sequester. > > Ok let's pursue the whale herd idea of my earlier post for harvesting and sequestering, and let's throw in the iron fertilization factor since it works: > > 1/ Let's equip the whales with iron dispensers spurting iron solution around when there is sunlight for photosynthesis to occur. This way the algae will grow where and when they can be harvested :) And the whale herd will grow too. > > 2/ Instead of going whale hunting like in the good old days, couldn't we take advantage of the beasties' gluttony to remote control them to their oceanic pastures and back? All that would be needed would be an embarked GPS, a radio for two way communication with the "whale boys" in their control rooms on land, and ways to direct the iron solution spurts to where we want the whales to follow the blooms :) > > How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ? > > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 04:30:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LCUQQ7019998; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LCUOvW019989; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:30:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:30:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Ddv2XlbINtShSfWWxCqRZfBWgLvkKbQX8/a0m/QSoVpjAueKCOCZYcy2zaLxv3Gq; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007232112308734@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:30:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bee54c0116d6696d28a11dbdebe90ac7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.137 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Seems that Lehmann's Terra Preta "Bio-Char" work at Cornell University has evoked quite a following. :-) Fred http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/?q=knightcarbon "Bio-char seems to have another interesting property: it seems to "stimulate" AMF." "The idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, although the actual application of charcoal is limited due to its high cost. The concept originated in the work of M. Ogawa, a former soil microbiologist in the Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute in Tsukuba. He and his colleagues applied charcoal around the roots of pine trees growing by the seashore, and found that Japanese truffles became plentiful. He also tested the application of charcoal to soybean with a small quantity of applied fertilizer, and demonstrated the stimulation of plant growth and nodule formation (Ogawa 1983). His findings with regard to legumes were taken up for further study by the National Grassland Research Institute (Nishio and Okano 1991). That implies that rhizobia as well as AMF benefit." And: "The reason TP has elicited such interest on the Agricultural/horticultural side of it's benefits is this one static:" "One gram of charcoal cooked to 650 C Has a surface area of 400 m2 (for soil microbes & fungus to live on), now for conversion fun: One ton of charcoal has a surface area of 400,000 Acres!! which is equal to 625 square miles!! Rockingham Co. VA. , where I live, is only 851 Sq. miles Now at a middle of the road application rate of 2 lbs/sq ft (which equals 1000 sqft/ton) or 43 tons/acre yields 26,000 Sq miles of surface area per Acre. VA is 39,594 Sq miles. What this suggest to me is a potential of sequestering virgin forest amounts of carbon just in the soil alone, without counting the forest on top. "To take just one fairly representative example, in the classic Rothampstead experiments in England where arable land was allowed to revert to deciduous temperate woodland, soil organic carbon increased 300-400% from around 20 t/ha to 60-80 t/ha (or about 140-190 tons per acre) in less than a century (Jenkinson & Rayner 1977). The rapidity with which organic carbon can build up in soils is also indicated by examples of buried steppe soils formed during short-lived interstadial phases in Russia and Ukraine. Even though such warm, relatively moist phases usually lasted only a few hundred years, and started out from the skeletal loess desert/semi-desert soils of glacial conditions (with which they are inter-leaved), these buried steppe soils have all the rich organic content of a present-day chernozem soil that has had many thousands of years to build up its carbon (E. Zelikson, Russian Academy of Sciences, pers. comm., May 1994). http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/carbon1.html" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Seems that Lehmann's Terra Preta "Bio-Char" work at Cornell University has 
evoked quite a following. :-)
 
Fred
 
 

"Bio-char seems to have another interesting property: it seems to "stimulate" AMF."

"The idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, although the actual application of charcoal is limited due to its high cost. The concept originated in the work of M. Ogawa, a former soil microbiologist in the Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute in Tsukuba. He and his colleagues applied charcoal around the roots of pine trees growing by the seashore, and found that Japanese truffles became plentiful. He also tested the application of charcoal to soybean with a small quantity of applied fertilizer, and demonstrated the stimulation of plant growth and nodule formation (Ogawa 1983). His findings with regard to legumes were taken up for further study by the National Grassland Research Institute (Nishio and Okano 1991).
That implies that rhizobia as well as AMF benefit."

And:

"The reason TP has elicited such interest on the Agricultural/horticultural side of it's benefits is this one static:"

"One gram of charcoal cooked to 650 C Has a surface area of 400 m2 (for soil microbes & fungus to live on), now for conversion fun:

One ton of charcoal has a surface area of 400,000 Acres!! which is equal to 625 square miles!! Rockingham Co. VA. , where I live, is only 851 Sq. miles

Now at a middle of the road application rate of 2 lbs/sq ft (which equals 1000 sqft/ton) or 43 tons/acre yields 26,000 Sq miles of surface area per Acre. VA is 39,594 Sq miles.

What this suggest to me is a potential of sequestering virgin forest amounts of carbon just in the soil alone, without counting the forest on top.

"To take just one fairly representative example, in the classic Rothampstead experiments in England where arable land was allowed to revert to deciduous temperate woodland, soil organic carbon increased 300-400% from around 20 t/ha to 60-80 t/ha (or about 140-190 tons per acre) in less than a century (Jenkinson & Rayner 1977). The rapidity with which organic carbon can build up in soils is also indicated by examples of buried steppe soils formed during short-lived interstadial phases in Russia and Ukraine. Even though such warm, relatively moist phases usually lasted only a few hundred years, and started out from the skeletal loess desert/semi-desert soils of glacial conditions (with which they are inter-leaved), these buried steppe soils have all the rich organic content of a present-day chernozem soil that has had many thousands of years to build up its carbon (E. Zelikson, Russian Academy of Sciences, pers. comm., May 1994). http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/carbon1.html"


------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 05:22:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LDM404003571; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:22:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LDM1I4003499; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:22:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <217301c755bb$43e78480$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <002a01c75558$27531db0$6281163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:21:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1LDLwoh003396 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters ... > If you think that the Lifter will work if it is surrounded by an enclosed > container with a gas inside it, to allow for ion circulation, but outside > the container is the vacuum of interstellar space, then explain why it > didn't produce thrust when I completely enclosed it in a large (but > lightweight) dielectric shield? Right. BTW Kyle I only just understood what you meant by "no thrust when enclosed", you were talking about the whole system, not about the lifter per se as I initially thought! Same as Stephen's hens in the truck, the hens do fly but the truck doesn't get lighter (unless you drill holes in the truck's ceiling and floor of course :-) > This is really getting ridiculous. Jean-Louis and everyone will parade > around any Joe Blow who puts together a lifter with some sandwich wrap and > matchsticks, and flies it from hacking into the guts of an old computer > monitor, but if anyone sets out to do some real, controlled science on this > thing and see what is actually going on....well, the rest is as they say, > history. Myself, Michel, Xavier, etc. have all been attacked in some form > for trying to do some real research into this and find out what is going on. > What we found wasn't what the Lifter people wanted to hear, so *obviously* > we just don't know what we are doing. Indeed. It would be like insisting that a helicopter doesn't work by pushing itself against the air, it just doesn't make sense scientifically. But I guess it does make sense economically for the people who make a living on promoting the more mysterious hypotheses :) Michel P.S. If it can convince anyone that lifters are interesting but well understood technical objects rather than mystery stuff, I enclose a lifter engineering guide (27 kB pdf, it might just about make it to the list (40kB max total)), share and enjoy. P.P.S. It hasn't gone through after an hour (in spite of OE telling me the whole message was only 39kB) so I am reposting this with a link instead (would have given it earlier but Blazelabs site was temporarily down), if anything was unclear do ask: http://blazelabs.com/Multiwire-plane.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 05:51:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LDpZnu020710; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:51:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LDpY8Q020654; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:51:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:51:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fDfmx3/J0VBCvh9HxqLOffJIZmszLERNhItCiHZ8DHA3NwHQWfbFoHlDBsXqjTDW; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200723211351378@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:51:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407e43a424c73fe48463ca28dad628d162350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.177 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Low temperature (375 - 600 F) charring of biomass is an exothermic reaction that gives off Carbon Monoxide CO, H2O, H2, and Organic-Nitrogen "fragments" as evidenced by heating the carbohydrates, sugar, starch, or paper, as well as the alluring aroma and the chore of mechanical removal of Bio-Char from burnt toast. Thermally fragmenting of the weak H-C-OH carbon-carbon chain bonds in these carbohydrates to form other organic compounds proves impossible, because the stronger -C-C- or -C=C- bonds form spontaneously. OTOH, Bacterial "fermentation" can break the weak bonds without forming the char to produce Acetic Acid, Rum, Vodka (along with CO2) and so forth. I built a single-pass tube-auger biomass-waste char-gasifier (up to 1600 F) in 1980 that could have easily been converted a to self-powered Bio-Char machine, using well-designed heat exchangers, but, I was after the char-steam reaction to make Water-Gas or Synthesis Gas from ligno-cellulosic bio-wastes. Self-powered low-temperature Charring of Algae should produce Bio-Oil and Char. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 2/21/2007 5:33:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize Seems that Lehmann's Terra Preta "Bio-Char" work at Cornell University has evoked quite a following. :-) Fred http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/?q=knightcarbon "Bio-char seems to have another interesting property: it seems to "stimulate" AMF." "The idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, although the actual application of charcoal is limited due to its high cost. The concept originated in the work of M. Ogawa, a former soil microbiologist in the Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute in Tsukuba. He and his colleagues applied charcoal around the roots of pine trees growing by the seashore, and found that Japanese truffles became plentiful. He also tested the application of charcoal to soybean with a small quantity of applied fertilizer, and demonstrated the stimulation of plant growth and nodule formation (Ogawa 1983). His findings with regard to legumes were taken up for further study by the National Grassland Research Institute (Nishio and Okano 1991). That implies that rhizobia as well as AMF benefit." And: "The reason TP has elicited such interest on the Agricultural/horticultural side of it's benefits is this one static:" "One gram of charcoal cooked to 650 C Has a surface area of 400 m2 (for soil microbes & fungus to live on), now for conversion fun: One ton of charcoal has a surface area of 400,000 Acres!! which is equal to 625 square miles!! Rockingham Co. VA. , where I live, is only 851 Sq. miles Now at a middle of the road application rate of 2 lbs/sq ft (which equals 1000 sqft/ton) or 43 tons/acre yields 26,000 Sq miles of surface area per Acre. VA is 39,594 Sq miles. What this suggest to me is a potential of sequestering virgin forest amounts of carbon just in the soil alone, without counting the forest on top. "To take just one fairly representative example, in the classic Rothampstead experiments in England where arable land was allowed to revert to deciduous temperate woodland, soil organic carbon increased 300-400% from around 20 t/ha to 60-80 t/ha (or about 140-190 tons per acre) in less than a century (Jenkinson & Rayner 1977). The rapidity with which organic carbon can build up in soils is also indicated by examples of buried steppe soils formed during short-lived interstadial phases in Russia and Ukraine. Even though such warm, relatively moist phases usually lasted only a few hundred years, and started out from the skeletal loess desert/semi-desert soils of glacial conditions (with which they are inter-leaved), these buried steppe soils have all the rich organic content of a present-day chernozem soil that has had many thousands of years to build up its carbon (E. Zelikson, Russian Academy of Sciences, pers. comm., May 1994). http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/car! bon1.html" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Low temperature (375 - 600 F) charring of biomass is an exothermic reaction
that gives off Carbon Monoxide CO, H2O, H2, and Organic-Nitrogen "fragments"
as evidenced by heating the carbohydrates, sugar, starch, or paper, as well as the
alluring aroma and the chore of mechanical removal of Bio-Char from burnt toast.
 
Thermally fragmenting of the weak H-C-OH carbon-carbon chain bonds in these
carbohydrates to form other organic compounds proves impossible, because the stronger
-C-C-  or -C=C- bonds form spontaneously.
 
OTOH, Bacterial "fermentation" can break the weak bonds without forming the char to
produce Acetic Acid, Rum, Vodka (along with CO2) and so forth.
 
I built a single-pass tube-auger biomass-waste char-gasifier (up to 1600 F) in 1980
that could have easily been converted a to self-powered Bio-Char machine, using
well-designed heat exchangers, but, I was after the char-steam reaction to make
Water-Gas or Synthesis Gas from ligno-cellulosic bio-wastes.
 
Self-powered low-temperature Charring of Algae should produce Bio-Oil and Char. 
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/21/2007 5:33:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize

Seems that Lehmann's Terra Preta "Bio-Char" work at Cornell University has 
evoked quite a following. :-)
 
Fred
 
 

"Bio-char seems to have another interesting property: it seems to "stimulate" AMF."

"The idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, although the actual application of charcoal is limited due to its high cost. The concept originated in the work of M. Ogawa, a former soil microbiologist in the Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute in Tsukuba. He and his colleagues applied charcoal around the roots of pine trees growing by the seashore, and found that Japanese truffles became plentiful. He also tested the application of charcoal to soybean with a small quantity of applied fertilizer, and demonstrated the stimulation of plant growth and nodule formation (Ogawa 1983). His findings with regard to legumes were taken up for further study by the National Grassland Research Institute (Nishio and Okano 1991).
That implies that rhizobia as well as AMF benefit."

And:

"The reason TP has elicited such interest on the Agricultural/horticultural side of it's benefits is this one static:"

"One gram of charcoal cooked to 650 C Has a surface area of 400 m2 (for soil microbes & fungus to live on), now for conversion fun:

One ton of charcoal has a surface area of 400,000 Acres!! which is equal to 625 square miles!! Rockingham Co. VA. , where I live, is only 851 Sq. miles

Now at a middle of the road application rate of 2 lbs/sq ft (which equals 1000 sqft/ton) or 43 tons/acre yields 26,000 Sq miles of surface area per Acre. VA is 39,594 Sq miles.

What this suggest to me is a potential of sequestering virgin forest amounts of carbon just in the soil alone, without counting the forest on top.

"To take just one fairly representative example, in the classic Rothampstead experiments in England where arable land was allowed to revert to deciduous temperate woodland, soil organic carbon increased 300-400% from around 20 t/ha to 60-80 t/ha (or about 140-190 tons per acre) in less than a century (Jenkinson & Rayner 1977). The rapidity with which organic carbon can build up in soils is also indicated by examples of buried steppe soils formed during short-lived interstadial phases in Russia and Ukraine. Even though such warm, relatively moist phases usually lasted only a few hundred years, and started out from the skeletal loess desert/semi-desert soils of glacial conditions (with which they are inter-leaved), these buried steppe soils have all the rich organic content of a present-day chernozem soil that has had many thousands of years to build up its carbon (E. Zelikson, Russian Academy of Sciences, pers. comm., May 1994). http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/car! bon1.html"


------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 06:16:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LEGft3028748; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:16:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LEGeNe028737; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:16:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:16:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:15:55 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Thread-Index: AcdVbr6EOXk9G95MQkOVlKVpmjHYkgAUzg7A From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2007 14:15:56.0101 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD605F50:01C755C2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1LEGd79028722 Resent-Message-ID: <8GzWUB.A.9AH.IRF3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building is maintained by hypnosis. The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real world government competence. Take a good look at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I don't see any reason why conspirators should haul Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well built as the Empire State building - when it survived A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 07:50:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LFoG8e002450; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:50:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LFoEdV002436; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:50:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:50:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221100533.035da3a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:49:58 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu .clearchannel.com> References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-vegSC.A.Am.2oG3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zell, Chris wrote: >More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well built as the >Empire State building - when it survived A collision with a WWII >vintage bomber. That is incorrect. The Towers were far stronger and better built than the Empire State building. If you were to try to build a structure as tall as the Towers using 1930s construction materials & techniques, it would fall over. Furthermore, the Pentagon is built with 1930s techniques, and it was destroyed by an airplane. The Empire State building would have crumbled and fallen immediately, just as a large section of the Pentagon did. The Empire State building did not collapse in 1945 because the momentum from the B25 was at least 52 times smaller than from the Boeing 767: B25 Empty weight: 9,580 kg Estimated speed at time of collision: 322 kph (89 m/s) Kinetic energy (M*V^2)/2: 37,941,590 joules (38 MJ) Boeing 767 Empty weight: 82,377 Estimated speed at time of collision: 790 kph (219 m/s) Kinetic energy: 1,975,441,649 joules (1,975 MJ) A Boeing 767 can carry 65,000 kg of fuel. Probably of fuel and payload were heavier than the entire B25. By the way, 65,000 kg of jet fuel produces 2,795,000 MJ. Approximately 31,000 kg of that fuel burned inside each Tower, which produced 1,333,000 MJ of heat. The B25 did not spill much fuel inside the Empire State Building. Let me say something here, people: This is a science forum. Please apply a modicum of quantitative thinking, basic physics and common sense to your assertions. You should realize that airplanes are much larger now than they were in 1945, and therefore the kinetic energy from an airplane crash is much greater. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:13:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LGDoRV017020; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:13:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LGDkMB016983; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:13:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:13:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:13:40 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >AFAIK Iran is building several reactors. The big power reactor >(approx. 1 GW) is >at Bushehr see >(http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/bushehr-intro.htm). This is an informative article. Iran wants to produce 20% of its electricity from nuclear power. The Russians are building a ~1 GWe unit, as noted. Honestly, I do not see how the US or any what other country can object to this. The world needs clean energy. The argument that Iran should use natural gas generators because they have lots of gas makes no sense to me. This is like saying they should not use nuclear or wind power in North and South Dakota because they have so much coal up there. Every joule of electric power produced by nuclear fission in Iran reduces global warming or frees up natural gas for export. We should encourage them to buy more nuclear plants. Unfortunately, in North Dakota they use almost exclusively electricity from coal, even though they have enough wind to power half of the U.S.A. See: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=ND South Dakota has more hydroelectric, and a higher percent of wind power: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=SD - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:20:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LGKnox019438; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:20:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LGKjk8019402; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:20:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:20:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:19:53 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C202901915@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Thread-Index: AcdV00Wvr27OL1nmRKudEvBimbgoFgAAIZIg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2007 16:19:54.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[1F3170B0:01C755D4] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1LGKhXl019381 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Russians keep complaining that they aren't getting paid by the Iranians for nuke technology. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:47:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LGljOe029323; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:47:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LGliaS029310; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:47:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:47:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221113406.03699810@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:46:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Coal is the fastest growing energy source in the U.S. Status: O X-Status: Here are some depressing statistics: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html Despite all the talk about the increase in renewable energy, over the last 13 years the real winner has been coal. From 1994 to 2005 actual generation from coal increased by 323,000 thousand megawatts, while "other renewables" such as wind increased by 18,000 thousand megawatts, 18 times less. Natural gas grew by 297,000 thousand megawatts. Growth rates are about the same. 2005 actual generation with coal is 119% of the 1994 value, whereas renewables are 127% of the 1994 value. At this rate, renewables will not catch up any time in the next 500 years. "Other renewables" include: "Wood, black liquor, other wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste, tires, agriculture byproducts, other biomass, geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy and wind." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 09:54:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LHsIm9031800; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:54:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LHsHAA031778; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:54:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:54:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <233b01c755e1$492ce4f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <175401c7520a$6cf3dc20$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:54:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_2339_01C755E9.AABA5E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2339_01C755E9.AABA5E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote the other day: > BTW2 the derivation is elegant but admittedly it could be a little = more > rigorous wrt distinguishing between scalars and vectors. For more clarity in this respect, I enclose an annotated version of = Sigmond's derivation for the lifter thrust (or rather it's opposite = namely the force exerted by the ions on the air), where I have added = arrow signs to the vector variables plus a few words of explanations. I = hope it helps. Corrections welcome. Michel P.S. For those not familiar with the ion mobility concept, the fine zig = zag trajectory due to the multiple collisions of an ion ploughing = through the medium's neutrals under the effect of an electric field = distribution is commonly modeled by a smooth path along the local = electric field line (which, as may not be obvious, can have any odd = shape in Sigmond's derivation including a forwards and then backwards = path as is the case for ions emitted from the front part of the wire), = with ion velocity vi equal to the "ion mobility" =B5 (ion and medium = specific statistical parameter) times the local electric field modulus E = (which is not assumed to be constant along the path in the derivation, = which is a good thing since it isn't!). ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters ... > BTW2 the derivation is elegant but admittedly it could be a little = more rigorous wrt distinguishing between scalars and vectors. ... >> Because ion [induced] wind yields exactly the above thrust formula if = you do >> the maths, here is an elegant derivation by R.S. Sigmond (if the 16 = kB gif >> image makes it to the list) >>=20 >> Michel ------=_NextPart_000_2339_01C755E9.AABA5E70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IonWindThrustDerivationAnnotated.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IonWindThrustDerivationAnnotated.gif" R0lGODlhCQNiAqIAAAAAAP///7+/v39/fz8/PwAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAACQNiAgAD/xi63P4wykmr vTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaKqubOu+cCzPdG3feK7vfO//wKBwSCwaj8ikcslsOp/QqHRKrVqv2Kx2y+16 Y4OveEwum8/otHrNbrvf8Lh83gzT7/i8fs/v+/+AgYKDhIWGh4iJiouMjY6PkJGSk5QbdpWYmZqb QQCeAAqfoACXDAOeEKeinyuqrAGoJ6uxQaUOoAu4C6oNtKG6vr2+rwy6FMGwxrCczEDKzbnAnmGk EMgKrqsqosm/KbO2O9wP1d7Rn9SidtrTD6522cXP1uPaycTQ+fri8rrh5reiBTj1rdxAXARRtIP1 D8esW9KMlasWi6K9axfH3avw8P9eO1T49nEceEyPsmAJd82rgS/ksjvDSAkYMEAANpphVOFsYPPg rp00bdK8STSoBF6mQuXseVNozYE9n07w1BMAAagkiZqSGmAmPK47dy2YGQGnqwanSqVcmDFrN6W9 ooIaCrfmtYC/0uZ9RVVkBFqqrmLrS5PUAAKoBHwSHAAxAMWeHHvUONfxtEuF1c1ql3nhZIvgPtM1 JXnw4oOnsz12R4oATqYGFXhFd1W1567aIKPDfTvO5rnTNqumZxrkb1wdiVvbiNo4N5fCkJPSFq+5 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Y6DRVJzodUCIfEIuB0qWGe+YPTQqsIcgMASNsCWx3MjFWc4TlKe4RBM8KjJ67CKKGj0QFylcqWpm wiLRNCaTtOQDf1UsGBy4gRUuLnKUwxsiGvu3HxJBUIi8k4bOvASWCZJylreTpSw/cMgpAAhet6xZ zmgJzOTZsnnvw+WwUJYICwRzmckDCojICAKg+cGPVxICNAvhkSAxc5vEy1YveeZGbopznOQspznP ic50qnOd7GynO98JQc94ynOe9KynPe+Jz3zqc5/87Kc//wnQgAp0oAQtqEEPitCEKnShDG2oQx8K 0YhKdKIUrahFL4rRjGp0oxxdXgIAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_2339_01C755E9.AABA5E70-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:12:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LICFWt005320; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:12:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LICEW5005306; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:12:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:12:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dQEHsNsXFjfb7biH8s/dVhgrQybGBOxuCvSY90IhMF/odEXzekZ/aCeuRso8mkkMw91Z2RJxTPuRdAkyOO85yx4iuRi5BE3b0TtFEH0s/1Ez4ga7dEeS/lhnLIk6ln0/zkkaguq9L+qrV9uz/glk3ZXVrqbka4Lq9OoJN1e9f0w= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:12:12 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11300_24506999.1172081532782" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_11300_24506999.1172081532782 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's my point exactly. What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'. Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like that. On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: > > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building > is maintained by hypnosis. > > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real > world government competence. Take a good look > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a > better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well > built as the Empire State building - when it survived > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. > > ------=_Part_11300_24506999.1172081532782 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's my point exactly.

What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'.
Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of the intelligence community did that.
Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like that.


On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris <CZell@wetmtv.com> wrote:
Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building
is maintained by hypnosis.

The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real
world government competence.  Take a good look
at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I
don't see any reason why conspirators should haul
Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely
reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a
better job.  More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well
built as the Empire State building - when it survived
A collision with a WWII vintage bomber.


------=_Part_11300_24506999.1172081532782-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:13:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIDlXd026845; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:13:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIDgBM026689; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:13:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:13:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Bu8CgDhLN462e/rBelIoEG5pdiF552hacAqxzwa0hDr1DyaNZu2M+FwsyoZk+sihWXW5Zxkf5e4512ei7F5W3r5ehginea6XgYFlKBOGduYBg81TvuPMEF7p1kYwf58uaVot8IHyF/cBRzqHl5M1sqs6RZEnun3YajJ75YIEcC8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:13:38 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11328_20524913.1172081618261" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_11328_20524913.1172081618261 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's my point exactly. What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'. Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like that. It's only a theory if there isn't absolute proof. On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: > > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building > is maintained by hypnosis. > > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real > world government competence. Take a good look > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a > better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well > built as the Empire State building - when it survived > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. > > ------=_Part_11328_20524913.1172081618261 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That's my point exactly.

What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'.
Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of the intelligence community did that.
Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like that.

It's only a theory if there isn't absolute proof.

On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris <CZell@wetmtv.com> wrote:
Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building
is maintained by hypnosis.

The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real
world government competence.  Take a good look
at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I
don't see any reason why conspirators should haul
Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely
reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a
better job.  More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well
built as the Empire State building - when it survived
A collision with a WWII vintage bomber.


------=_Part_11328_20524913.1172081618261-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:14:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIEWdu027225; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIEUnt027207; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mDqoheZiRPETH9lB24ni6/h6t7vn6NKROJAHj+oE8dO4n0QRYLaeAZKHiZCWRPVx66eVSypQxwaQAWAbMYKIqBeRbyJO92N8TC7v0LsCuxEo+nh8+NgOhe2bwFDlp+bphyBDNv7Y9wUAKn9nqoH9fUL7ZND1lxyWdexpNj0O6YY= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:14:28 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Umm, so, if there were no suicide pilots, who was flying? On 2/21/07, John Berry wrote: > That's my point exactly. > > What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with > 'Bush is a twit'. > Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical > stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. > Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any > race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like > that. > > > > On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: > > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building > > is maintained by hypnosis. > > > > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real > > world government competence. Take a good look > > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I > > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul > > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely > > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a > > better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well > > built as the Empire State building - when it survived > > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. > > > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:19:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIJmCo007639; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:19:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIJlUV007628; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:19:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:19:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <237f01c755e4$dc710f90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:19:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1LIJjRY007611 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stranger and stranger. So how do you qualify the pilots, if not suicide pilots? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? > That's my point exactly. > > What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with > 'Bush is a twit'. > Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical > stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. > Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any > race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like > that. > > It's only a theory if there isn't absolute proof. > > On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: >> >> Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building >> is maintained by hypnosis. >> >> The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real >> world government competence. Take a good look >> at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I >> don't see any reason why conspirators should haul >> Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely >> reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a >> better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well >> built as the Empire State building - when it survived >> A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:25:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIPcKw002091; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:25:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIPaCS002065; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:25:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:25:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:25:32 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> AFAIK Iran is building several reactors. The big power reactor >> (approx. 1 GW) is >> at Bushehr see >> (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/bushehr-intro.htm). > > This is an informative article. Iran wants to produce 20% of its > electricity from nuclear power. The Russians are building a ~1 GWe unit, > as noted. > > Honestly, I do not see how the US or any what other country can object > to this. Perhaps the fact that the president of Iran asserted that their goal is to erase Israel from the map has something to do with it. The actual phrase, reported in LeMonde IIRC, was something like "rayer Israel de la carte" -- the word "rayer" stuck in my mind; it's pretty dramatic when applied to an entire country. AFAIK LeMonde doesn't take orders from Bush so, even though I haven't seen the original speech, I expect the French translation was not too far off base. Since this went hand in hand with Ahmednejad's bellicose assertions that Iran has every right to pursue their nuclear program without outside intervention or oversight, and with his rejection (or disregard) of Russia's offer to provide the pre-enriched fuel for their reactors in order to avoid the need for (weapons-convertible) enrichment facilities in Iran, it made a lot of people understandably nervous about what the future might hold if Iran's course is not changed. According to at least one apologist for Iran found on the Internet, the literal phrase used meant "This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.” That doesn't sound a whole lot better to me than the French version, frankly, and in this case, I'm inclined to trust the translators who most likely knew what the Persian idiom meant when they translated it to "rayer de la carte" -- which, by the way, means exactly what it sounds like it means. > The world needs clean energy. The argument that Iran should use > natural gas generators because they have lots of gas makes no sense to > me. This is like saying they should not use nuclear or wind power in > North and South Dakota because they have so much coal up there. Every > joule of electric power produced by nuclear fission in Iran reduces > global warming or frees up natural gas for export. We should encourage > them to buy more nuclear plants. > > Unfortunately, in North Dakota they use almost exclusively electricity > from coal, even though they have enough wind to power half of the U.S.A. > See: > > http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=ND > > South Dakota has more hydroelectric, and a higher percent of wind power: > > http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=SD > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:27:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIR4c9004825; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:27:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIR3p9004801; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:27:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221130002.036812d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:26:53 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45DBC23C.4020002@pobox.com> References: <45DB42B1.1070808@pacbell.net> <45DB64F5.2040306@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220163009.036010f8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220165336.036e7380@mindspring.com> <45DBC23C.4020002@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1LIR0YX004664 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Jed, you have said more than once that (nearly) >all the expert engineers /knew/ it would collapse. >That's absolutely not what I read in the mainstream press reports . . . These reports were premature, and wrong. Later interviews and testimony by experts revealed that most of them expected the Towers to fall. >: The buildings were capable of taking a hit >from a good sized jet with a certain amount of jet fuel on board. No, they were "designed" for circa 1970 jets coming in for a landing at LaGuardia at low speed. Modern jets are much larger and these were going much faster than landing speed. Actually, little serious consideration was paid to this possibility, and modern computer modeling was not available. Quoting NIST: "As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…” The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation. The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. . . ." > Whether what actually happened was a big > enough wallop to bring them down was _not_ _obvious_, to _anyone_. As I said, several experts later testified that they knew the buildings would fall. They were also interviewed in the Discovery Channel documentaries. > Opinions as to whether they would fall or not > were little more than guesses, as far as I can tell. Incorrect. These were carefully considered conclusions rendered by world-class experts. Actually, they were surprised that the towers held up as long as they did. >Again, I seriously doubt your repeated >assertions that "all the experts" were convinced >the buildings _WOULD_ collapse after the planes hit. I suggest you read the official documents from NIST and elsewhere. > That's tantamount to saying the people running > the show on the ground really screwed up > bigtime by not evacuating, and I don't think it's called for . . . Not just tantamount; that is exactly what the experts asserted. One of them, from Britain, says he tried frantically to contact the New York City police to tell them to evacuate, but he could not get through. There is no question that the people "running the show really screwed up bigtime." If they had panicked less than listened more carefully to expert advice, they would have known that the police and firemen could do nothing and should be ordered out of the building. The police and firemen died in vain. Particularly after the first building collapsed no one should have doubted the other would soon fall. We do not like to think about heroes dying in vain. It makes an awful tragedy seem even worse, somehow. The history books seldom mention such outcomes, even though they are common. For example, I read a careful analysis of major Allied airborne troops deployments in the invasion of Europe -- at D-Day, the crossing of the Rhine River, and Market Garden. The analysis shows that they contributed little or nothing to the operations. These operations would probably have succeeded (or failed, in the latter case) without the airborne troops. Tremendous resources were used to supply these troops with enough aircraft, fuel and equipment, and the troops suffered disproportionately high casualties, but alas, they were not very effective. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:33:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIXSs5011549; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:33:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIXQBe011488; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:33:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:33:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DC9064.9040101@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:33:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: > Umm, so, if there were no suicide pilots, who was flying? The planes were remote controlled, by CIA agents hiding behind the grassy knoll, of course. Haven't you been following the discussion? You've really gotta get with the program, Pen. The passengers were all off-loaded safely at a remote location in New Jersey. I'm not sure what happened to them after that, but I imagine they were well paid for their silence. The only ones that messed up were the pilots of the plane destined for the White House, who couldn't find the secret airport they were supposed to land at. > > On 2/21/07, John Berry wrote: >> That's my point exactly. >> >> What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with >> 'Bush is a twit'. >> Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the >> technical >> stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. >> Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of >> any >> race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something >> like >> that. >> >> >> >> On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: >> > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building >> > is maintained by hypnosis. >> > >> > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real >> > world government competence. Take a good look >> > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I >> > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul >> > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely >> > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a >> > better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well >> > built as the Empire State building - when it survived >> > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. >> > >> > >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:41:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIfThv024325; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:41:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIfSWj024308; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:41:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:41:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221132906.036916a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:41:00 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>Honestly, I do not see how the US or any what other country can >>object to this. > >Perhaps the fact that the president of Iran asserted that their goal >is to erase Israel from the map has something to do with it. Of course I realize he says that, but for that matter so do many political leaders in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other countries which are supposedly our allies. Furthermore, Iran cannot destroy Israel using a gigawatt power reactor. They might reprocess the fuel, but I am confident that precautions can be put in place to prevent this, such as IAEA observers in the plants. After all, the US and others are ostensibly willing to sell power reactors to North Korea, which has acted far more irresponsibly than Iran. Besides, he is not a fool. He knows that Israel has many nuclear weapons and would not hesitate to use them if they knew an attack came from Iran. The only way to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon and avoid annihilation is to smuggle in one warhead. Nobody could launch a salvo of them and survive more than a half-hour. If you are going to smuggle in one warhead, why not just buy one on the Russian black market? Why bother developing bombs, when they are available for a few hundred thousand bucks each from drunk Russian military officers, or possibly, available to anyone who brings a pair of wire-cutters. (This is called the "loose nuke" problem. Many ex-Soviet nuclear weapons are secured in weak bunkers surrounded by little more than rusty barbed wire, guarded by drunk Russian soldiers. The US and Russia are trying to do something about this, but the programs are chronically underfunded and delayed.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:45:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LIj8be025453; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:45:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LIj7XP025431; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:45:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C755E8.4D3EEAA8" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:44:21 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C202901B4F@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Thread-Index: AcdV4/6xkcX2Xf8tRpena/rWoQmoZQAAEgXQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2007 18:44:22.0369 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D75D510:01C755E8] Resent-Message-ID: <2My5xB.A.ONG.zMJ3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C755E8.4D3EEAA8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes? How deep does this fantasy go? Remote control? Robots? =20 My point about government competence still stands and is confirmed everyday with the continuing failure to pacify Iraq. It's far more than 'Bush is a twit'. =20 And the intelligence community is somehow above and beyond this level of ineptitude? You mean like WMD's in Iraq? or decades of mole-ridden ineffectiveness in the cold war? Soviet missile estimates? "Success" in Vietnam? Predictions that Cuba will collapse? Completely in the dark about Manhattan Project spies? Surprize by Sputnik? Surprize by Soviet nuclear success? Surprize by the fall of the Iron Curtain? Plots to discreetly kill Hugo Chavez instead of letting him return after a coup? =20 =20 Anything you wish to explain by competence - which is demanded in an extreme degree by a multi faceted and highly complex conspiracy - can be more easily explained by an inept government led by naive hacks -- and examined by paranoids who see God-like ability in those they despise. =20 Can I also tell you how wildly ignorant Bill Clinton was? How reports surfaced that he made huge promises about healthcare and the budget without the simplest knowledge that the government was subject to bond traders and couldn't afford his plans? that he got upset with his aides when they told him this after he became president? =20 Can I go on about other Presidents? How LBJ exposed his genitals to journalists to make a point? How frighteningly naive Carter was ( and is!) How the press quietly agreed not to talk about Reagan's Alzheimers? =20 It's all a mess, not a conspiracy. =20 =20 ________________________________ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? That's my point exactly. What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'. Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of the intelligence community did that.=20 Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like that. It's only a theory if there isn't absolute proof.=20 On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote:=20 Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building is maintained by hypnosis. =09 The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real world government competence. Take a good look=20 at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I don't see any reason why conspirators should haul Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a=20 better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well built as the Empire State building - when it survived A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. =09 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C755E8.4D3EEAA8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No one is claiming there were suicide pilots on = the=20 planes?  How deep does this fantasy go?  Remote control?=20 Robots?
 
My point about government competence still = stands and is=20 confirmed everyday with the continuing failure to pacify Iraq.  = It's far=20 more than 'Bush is a twit'.
 
And the intelligence community is somehow above = and beyond=20 this level of ineptitude?  You mean like WMD's in Iraq?  or = decades of=20 mole-ridden ineffectiveness
in the cold war?  Soviet missile=20 estimates? "Success" in Vietnam?  Predictions that Cuba will=20 collapse?  Completely in the dark about Manhattan Project=20 spies?
Surprize by Sputnik?  Surprize by Soviet = nuclear=20 success?  Surprize by the fall of the Iron Curtain?  Plots to=20 discreetly kill Hugo Chavez instead of letting  him=20 return
after a coup? 
 
Anything you wish to explain by competence - = which is=20 demanded in an extreme degree by a multi faceted and highly complex=20 conspiracy  - can be more easily
explained by an inept government led by naive = hacks -- and=20 examined by paranoids who see God-like ability in those they=20 despise.
 
Can I also tell you how wildly ignorant Bill = Clinton=20 was?  How reports surfaced that he made huge promises about = healthcare and=20 the budget without the simplest
knowledge that the government was subject to = bond traders=20 and couldn't afford his plans?  that he got upset with his aides = when they=20 told him this after he became
president?
 
Can I go on about other Presidents?  How = LBJ exposed=20 his genitals to journalists to make a point?  How frighteningly = naive=20 Carter was ( and is!)  How the
press quietly agreed not to talk about Reagan's = Alzheimers?
 
It's all a mess, not a = conspiracy.
 
 

From: John Berry = [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:14 PM
To:=20 vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite=20 ?

That's my point exactly.

What I am saying has solid = evidence=20 to back it up, and you counter with 'Bush is a twit'.
Which while = obviously=20 true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical stuff, members of = the=20 intelligence community did that.
Further no one is claiming there = were=20 suicide pilots on the planes, of any race, you just show how little = you've=20 looked into it to say something like that.

It's only a theory if = there=20 isn't absolute proof.

On 2/22/07, Zell,=20 Chris <CZell@wetmtv.com>=20 wrote:
Perhaps=20 the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building
is=20 maintained by hypnosis.

The problem with conspiracies is the = obvious=20 contradiction with real
world government = competence.  Take a good=20 look
at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason = accordingly.=20 I
don't see any reason why conspirators should haul
Sacks of = thermite=20 and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely
reliable) suicide = bombers -=20 when explosives would do a
better job.  More than that, = I doubt=20 the WTC buildings were as well
built as the Empire State building - = when it=20 survived
A collision with a WWII vintage=20 bomber.


------_=_NextPart_001_01C755E8.4D3EEAA8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 11:23:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LJN7LB010203; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:23:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LJN55u010194; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:23:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:23:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DC9C12.4010208@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:22:58 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221132906.036916a8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221132906.036916a8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >>> Honestly, I do not see how the US or any what other country can >>> object to this. >> >> Perhaps the fact that the president of Iran asserted that their goal >> is to erase Israel from the map has something to do with it. > > Of course I realize he says that, but for that matter so do many > political leaders in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other countries which > are supposedly our allies. Furthermore, Iran cannot destroy Israel using > a gigawatt power reactor. True. And it's also true that it's not purchase of the reactor that got the United States and Israel all hot under the collar: It's construction of an enrichment facility, which certainly can be used to make the materials needed for weapons. It's that facility which is the purported target of Israel's alleged plan to drop a nuke on Iran, as reported in the London Times not so long ago. > They might reprocess the fuel, but I am > confident that precautions can be put in place to prevent this, such as > IAEA observers in the plants. After all, the US and others are > ostensibly willing to sell power reactors to North Korea, which has > acted far more irresponsibly than Iran. > > Besides, he is not a fool. A lot of people would not agree with you on that assertion. Is Bush a fool? I believe you have said you think so. Do you think Ahmednejad is particularly better balanced, well informed, and intelligent than Bush? Even the ayatollahs in Iran are beginning to pull back from Ahmednejad. His positions on enrichment and on the holocaust are leading a lot of people to conclude that he is, indeed, a fool. > He knows that Israel has many nuclear weapons > and would not hesitate to use them if they knew an attack came from > Iran. The only way to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon and avoid > annihilation is to smuggle in one warhead. Nobody could launch a salvo > of them and survive more than a half-hour. > > If you are going to smuggle in one warhead, why not just buy one on the > Russian black market? Why bother developing bombs, when they are > available for a few hundred thousand bucks each from drunk Russian > military officers, or possibly, available to anyone who brings a pair of > wire-cutters. (This is called the "loose nuke" problem. Many ex-Soviet > nuclear weapons are secured in weak bunkers surrounded by little more > than rusty barbed wire, guarded by drunk Russian soldiers. The US and > Russia are trying to do something about this, but the programs are > chronically underfunded and delayed.) > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 12:33:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LKWvUi002753; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:32:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LKWuvc002745; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:32:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:32:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:28:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <217301c755bb$43e78480$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ak+BLt/nKh/ZxYtiA/SDWw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Ak+BLt/nKh/ZxYtiA/SDWw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Michel Jullian wrote: > > Indeed. It would be like insisting that a helicopter doesn't work by pushing > itself against the air, it just doesn't make sense scientifically. But I guess > it does make sense economically for the people who make a living on promoting > the more mysterious hypotheses :) > The design in the attachment is suppose to fly by pushing the air. Well it will certainly push air but it won't fly. However, it can be made to work as a pump. But suppose it did fly...would knowing how it works as pump be sufficient to explain how it flies? 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From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14388_22607392.1172092417797" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_14388_22607392.1172092417797 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well I must say at first I didn't believe it, but when you look at the evidence the planes were clearly switched. It starts off with the boarding of some of the flights, there were oddities with different gates and such, very confusing, the details of one of the planes was given, it was boarding at 2 different gates, the one it usually boarded at and another one. http://911wideopen.com/mirror/twin11-1/twin-11-mod.htm There were also reports of two of the planes landing safely at an airport, yes really. (according to the Mayor anyway: http://www.rense.com/general68/says.htm) The transponder signals were turned off over an airport and turned back on, but it would not have been possible for the plane to have pulled off the flying required for it to be where the signal turns back on. Then there is the fact that people at the commercial airport would likely have noticed the modifications (the pod which is clearly visible in all shots all on the same side). And then people saw not an airline plane but what they described as a cargo plane, with no windows, painted up to look like the right flights only not. Then there is the fact that at least one of the planes meant to have crashed was found to still be in service. (If I looked hard enough I could find that article no doubt) The fact that the crash sites at the Pentagon and Pennsylvania simply didn't fit, there wasn't a Boeing's wreckage, however there were wreckage parts that could not have come from a Boeing. (A turbine that some say is the Honeywell APU but Honeywell says isn't) The building shows no damage from the wings, jet engines or tail. People at the Pentagon say they could smell Cordite. Witnesses reported that debris rain down for minutes after the crash. Care to calculate how high (and how directly upwards) metal debris would need to be thrust upwards to rain down for minutes, the photos indeed show an increase of Debris in latter photos, were Debris being sprinkled from above? (is the idea that debris can be so high as to take minutes to fall any less absurd?) Yes, there were eye witnesses that say a plane hit the Pentagon, but there were also video cameras which were immediately taken from the hotel across the road and other locations never to be seen again, there were also other eye witnesses that gave other accounts. The employees at the hotel were told never to discuss what they had seen. (Employees watched the film several times in shock and horror before the tape was confiscated) There were ham radio operators that did pick up a transmitter from the WTC that day which ended after the hits, it was seemingly being used as a navigation aid, also the infra red laser (not seen by people but picked up by cameras) is plainly visible, it even projects on the smoke, why else would someone be projecting an infra red laser normally used for painting targets at the building?). They have previously flown large aircraft of such size by wire with no one on board, successful landings and takeoffs. Eye witnesses at Pennsylvania say they saw a small white jet hit low objects before going over a hill followed by the crash. The pilot of one the of the planes had taken part in a mock attack on the WTC in the 80's by the Pentagon, quite the co-incidence. BTW no Arabs were on the flight manifest on the plane that was meant to hit the pentagon, the autopsy report doesn't bother to invent any either. http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm The families of those on the flights indeed reacted differently to other victims families, for one they don't question the official report, even though many of the other victims families do, along with at this point in time a majority of people according to Zogby polls. Also it is well established that they couldn't have made the calls that were meant to be have made. (people had experimented and confirmed it) Watch Loose Change, 2nd edition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY On 2/22/07, leaking pen wrote: > > Umm, so, if there were no suicide pilots, who was flying? > > On 2/21/07, John Berry wrote: > > That's my point exactly. > > > > What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with > > 'Bush is a twit'. > > Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the > technical > > stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. > > Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of > any > > race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something > like > > that. > > > > > > > > On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: > > > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building > > > is maintained by hypnosis. > > > > > > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real > > > world government competence. Take a good look > > > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I > > > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul > > > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely > > > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a > > > better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well > > > built as the Empire State building - when it survived > > > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. > > ------=_Part_14388_22607392.1172092417797 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well I must say at first I didn't believe it, but when you look at the evidence the planes were clearly switched.

It starts off with the boarding of some of the flights, there were oddities with different gates and such, very confusing, the details of one of the planes was given, it was boarding at 2 different gates, the one it usually boarded at and another one.
http://911wideopen.com/mirror/twin11-1/twin-11-mod.htm
There were also reports of two of the planes landing safely at an airport, yes really. (according to the Mayor anyway: http://www.rense.com/general68/says.htm)

The transponder signals were turned off over an airport and turned back on, but it would not have been possible for the plane to have pulled off the flying required for it to be where the signal turns back on.

Then there is the fact that people at the commercial airport would likely have noticed the modifications (the pod which is clearly visible in all shots all on the same side).
And then people saw not an airline plane but what they described as a cargo plane, with no windows, painted up to look like the right flights only not.

Then there is the fact that at least one of the planes meant to have crashed was found to still be in service. (If I looked hard enough I could find that article no doubt)

The fact that the crash sites at the Pentagon and Pennsylvania simply didn't fit, there wasn't a Boeing's wreckage, however there were wreckage parts that could not have come from a Boeing. (A turbine that some say is the Honeywell APU but Honeywell says isn't)
The building shows no damage from the wings, jet engines or tail.

People at the Pentagon say they could smell Cordite.
Witnesses reported that debris rain down for minutes after the crash.
Care to calculate how high (and how directly upwards) metal debris would need to be thrust upwards to rain down for minutes, the photos indeed show an increase of Debris in latter photos, were Debris being sprinkled from above? (is the idea that debris can be so high as to take minutes to fall any less absurd?)

Yes, there were eye witnesses that say a plane hit the Pentagon, but there were also video cameras which were immediately taken from the hotel across the road and other locations never to be seen again, there were also other eye witnesses that gave other accounts.
The employees at the hotel were told never to discuss what they had seen. (Employees watched the film several times in shock and horror before the tape was confiscated)

There were ham radio operators that did pick up a transmitter from the WTC that day which ended after the hits, it was seemingly being used as a navigation aid, also the infra red laser (not seen by people but picked up by cameras) is plainly visible, it even projects on the smoke, why else would someone be projecting an infra red laser normally used for painting targets at the building?).

They have previously flown large aircraft of such size by wire with no one on board, successful landings and takeoffs.

Eye witnesses at Pennsylvania say they saw a small white jet hit low objects before going over a hill followed by the crash.

The pilot of one the of the planes had taken part in a mock attack on the WTC in the 80's by the Pentagon, quite the co-incidence.

BTW no Arabs were on the flight manifest on the plane that was meant to hit the pentagon, the autopsy report doesn't bother to invent any either.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

The families of those on the flights indeed reacted differently to other victims families, for one they don't question the official report, even though many of the other victims families do, along with at this point in time a majority of people according to Zogby polls.

Also it is well established that they couldn't have made the calls that were meant to be have made. (people had experimented and confirmed it)

Watch Loose Change, 2nd edition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY

On 2/22/07, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
Umm, so, if there were no suicide pilots, who was flying?

On 2/21/07, John Berry < aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's my point exactly.
>
> What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with
> 'Bush is a twit'.
> Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the technical
> stuff, members of the intelligence community did that.
> Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of any
> race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something like
> that.
>
>
>
> On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris <CZell@wetmtv.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building
> > is maintained by hypnosis.
> >
> > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real
> > world government competence.  Take a good look
> > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I
> > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul
> > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely
> > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a
> > better job.  More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well
> > built as the Empire State building - when it survived
> > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber.
> >
> >
>
>


--
That which yields isn't always weak.


------=_Part_14388_22607392.1172092417797-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 13:30:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LLUcvo019526; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:30:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LLUbtc019514; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:30:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:26:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Army paper on lifters Status: O X-Status: Kyle and Michel, You have likely seen this paper already, but if you haven't you can download it (about 1MB) from here: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/arl_fac/0211001.pdf Here is the paper's abstract: --------- Army Research Laboratory Adelphi, MD 20783-1197 Force on an Asymmetric Capacitor by Thomas B. Bahder and Chris Fazi ARL-TR-XXX March 2003 Approved for public release, distribution unlimited. When a high voltage (~30 kV) is applied to a capacitor whose electrodes have different physical dimensions, the capacitor experiences a net force toward the smaller electrode (Biefeld-Brown effect). We have verified this effect by building four capacitors of different shapes. The effect may have applications to vehicle propulsion and dielectric pumps. We review the history of this effect briefly through the history of patents by Thomas Townsend Brown. At present, the physical basis for the Biefeld-Brown effect is not understood. The order of magnitude of the net force on the asymmetric capacitor is estimated assuming two different mechanisms of charge conduction between its electrodes: ballistic ionic wind and ionic drift. The calculations indicate that ionic wind is at least three orders of magnitude too small to explain the magnitude of the observed force on the capacitor. The ionic drift transport assumption leads to the correct order of magnitude for the force, however, it is difficult to see how ionic drift enters into the theory. Finally, we present a detailed thermodynamic treatment of the net force on an asymmetric capacitor. In the future, to understand this effect, a detailed theoretical model must be constructed that takes into account plasma effects: ionization of gas (or air) in the high electric field region, charge transport, and resulting dynamic forces on the electrodes. The next series of experiments should determine whether the effect occurs in vacuum, and a careful study should be carried out to determine the dependence of the observed force on gas pressure, gas species and applied voltage. --------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 14:06:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LM6JvG002379; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:06:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LM6IIq002368; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:06:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:06:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221164311.03699810@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:58:47 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >There were also reports of two of the planes landing safely at an >airport, yes really. (according to the Mayor anyway: >http://www.rense.com/general68/says.htm) > >The transponder signals were turned off over an airport and turned >back on, but it would not have been possible for the plane to have >pulled off the flying required for it to be where the signal turns back on. > >Then there is the fact that people at the commercial airport would >likely have noticed the modifications (the pod which is clearly >visible in all shots all on the same side). My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing, I suppose it is no wonder that a 2006 Harris poll showed that 64% of Americans thought Saddam Hussein had "strong" links to al Qaeda, or that 55% of voters do not believe in evolution. People will believe -- or not believe -- just about anything. This shows why it is so difficult to persuade the public that cold fusion is real. For many people, evidence, logic, plausibility, commonsense and the known laws of physics count for nothing. Rumors and wishful thinking dominate. Chris Zell summed it up perfectly: "Anything you wish to explain by competence - which is demanded in an extreme degree by a multi faceted and highly complex conspiracy - can be more easily explained by an inept government led by naive hacks -- and examined by paranoids who see God-like ability in those they despise." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 14:23:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LMNWEG007715; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:23:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LMNWpC007710; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:23:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:23:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=g5dpsyWtNZq+Rz/Lq30tWTGLWyBkBrtFk4QcpD3GJ4bNyXgKkhaQ/oVlgL/wtC8RUY3CJRTbkqb/cxY7xNMjtVnYRaIEJyLo8N5WVpLEmBvbAQNz6cHoVxlj38iNJVjgBwhvdCVWjAcKpNI6EaW82OTc1Ob3qv0qEEMy+CqwUUs= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:23:30 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15574_15089528.1172096610302" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73090 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_15574_15089528.1172096610302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/22/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing, Currently you simply don't have the information those people are basing their 'Gullible' beliefs on. Simply watch 'Loose Change 2nd Edition' (Just watched the whole of it and it is excellent) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY And watch Mysteries Demolitions 9/11 Mysteries Part 1 (of 9) Demolitions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ax_4AdWOU Or the other 8 also if you want. But before you watch, ask yourself what if would take to change your mind, what evidence would be enough, I suspect none could ever be. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, political orientations, it has to do with fact. ------=_Part_15574_15089528.1172096610302 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/22/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing,

Currently you simply don't have the information those people are basing their 'Gullible' beliefs on.

Simply watch 'Loose Change 2nd Edition' (Just watched the whole of it and it is excellent)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY

And watch

Mysteries Demolitions 9/11 Mysteries Part 1 (of 9) Demolitions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ax_4AdWOU

Or the other 8 also  if you want.

But before you watch, ask yourself what if would take to change your mind, what evidence would be enough, I suspect none could ever be.

This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, political orientations, it has to do with fact.

------=_Part_15574_15089528.1172096610302-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 15:13:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LNDDZi022227; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:13:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LNDBTv022207; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:13:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:13:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221173635.0365c910@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:12:55 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_30960437==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73091 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_30960437==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Berry wrote: >My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing, > >Currently you simply don't have the information those people are >basing their 'Gullible' beliefs on. You have given me more than enough information to evaluate these claims! I am sure you represented them accurately. The people at NIST also evaluated some of these claims in as much detail as the claims deserve. That is why, for example, they dismiss the thermite hypothesis. All you need to know is that it would take "thousands of pounds" of the stuff, and you can rule that out. You do not need to consider other problems with this claim, such as the fact that wrecking crews would have to spend weeks or months dismantling 5 or 10 floors of the building in preparation for this "secret" demolition. All of these claims can be ruled out with a little commonsense and knowledge of how the world works. I with that you, President Bush and other Americans would learn to ignore this kind of blather and nonsense about 9/11, Iraq, Saddam Hussein, and the rest of this Middle Eastern mess. Bush is prime example of someone who bases his decisions on intuition and ignorance. Look where it lands him every time! Down another rathole. He ignores expert advice from Iraq experts at the State Department and the CIA. Experience should have taught you and the President by now to put aside intuition, and ignore the neocons, the conspiracy theorists, Robert Park and the other extremists on both sides. Pay attention instead to people who know what they are talking about, and who base their claims on facts -- not hysteria, or rumor, or thousands of pounds of invisible thermite -- FACTS. The experts at China Lake and LANL were right about cold fusion in 1989. The experts at NIST are right about 9/11 today. - Jed --=====================_30960437==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John Berry wrote:

My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing,

Currently you simply don't have the information those people are basing their 'Gullible' beliefs on.

You have given me more than enough information to evaluate these claims! I am sure you represented them accurately.

The people at NIST also evaluated some of these claims in as much detail as the claims deserve. That is why, for example, they dismiss the thermite hypothesis. All you need to know is that it would take "thousands of pounds" of the stuff, and you can rule that out. You do not need to consider other problems with this claim, such as the fact that wrecking crews would have to spend weeks or months dismantling 5 or 10 floors of the building in preparation for this "secret" demolition.

All of these claims can be ruled out with a little commonsense and knowledge of how the world works.

I with that you, President Bush and other Americans would learn to ignore this kind of blather and nonsense about 9/11, Iraq, Saddam Hussein, and the rest of this Middle Eastern mess. Bush is prime example of someone who bases his decisions on intuition and ignorance. Look where it lands him every time! Down another rathole. He ignores expert advice from Iraq experts at the State Department and the CIA. Experience should have taught you and the President by now to put aside intuition, and ignore the neocons, the conspiracy theorists, Robert Park and the other extremists on both sides. Pay attention instead to people who know what they are talking about, and who base their claims on facts -- not hysteria, or rumor, or thousands of pounds of invisible thermite -- FACTS. The experts at China Lake and LANL were right about cold fusion in 1989. The experts at NIST are right about 9/11 today.

- Jed
--=====================_30960437==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 15:22:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LNMgbp029588; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:22:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LNMeGF029568; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:22:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:22:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=RZKez12pGrKp7biW4QWHh1JHT0zZ/thnucDs+EdehQlheJpMyWSXIUjr6B8a+LhWKc5n/Qr5MlrUHhN11A5g8qtIe4aiTGij4wBQB4rCAY+9gAtYU+ji8cahJnrBjCFMP9EY4IqjDNDoCdCWIvSL6uzloYC1xnkqxgpQdG6Skho= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:22:37 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221173635.0365c910@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16250_20848998.1172100157736" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221173635.0365c910@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73092 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_16250_20848998.1172100157736 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/22/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing, > > Currently you simply don't have the information those people are basing > their 'Gullible' beliefs on. > > > You have given me more than enough information to evaluate these claims! I > am sure you represented them accurately. > Wrong. I hadn't even seen loose change (or more that a piece of it) before that email. (Just heard good things about it) It counters the points you made about experts. (they changed their stories, and those who didn't were fired) Sure enough, you don't take up the challenge! What are you afraid of? ------=_Part_16250_20848998.1172100157736 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/22/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:
My goodness. Since many gullible people believe this sort of thing,

Currently you simply don't have the information those people are basing their 'Gullible' beliefs on.

 You have given me more than enough information to evaluate these claims! I am sure you represented them accurately.

Wrong.
I hadn't even seen loose change (or more that a piece of it) before that email. (Just heard good things about it)
It counters the points you made about experts. (they changed their stories, and those who didn't were fired)

Sure enough, you don't take up the challenge!

What are you afraid of?


------=_Part_16250_20848998.1172100157736-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 15:33:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LNWs9P001845; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:32:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LNWr3I001832; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:32:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:32:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c75610$9d0a4570$29027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:32:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755DE.51BD0030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73093 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cold Fusion,nuclear fusion, infinite energy, low energy nuclear reactions,lenr,chemically assisted nuclear reactions,canr,neutron emission, fusion reaction,heavy water,Fleischman and Pons, deuterium, tritium, cold fusion controversy, massachusetts institut Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755DE.51BD0030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.alternativescience.com/cold_fusion.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755DE.51BD0030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
http://www.alt= ernativescience.com/cold_fusion.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755DE.51BD0030-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 15:38:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1LNbr3H008293; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:37:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1LNbqMW008273; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:37:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:37:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=UhI9eTt+FGwQUgzk+ozN1oE9liI+14g28660x8RhUNxFr3rTr0lJa8yOUEiXKeoR7/feAd7FJto9RATF7DLTMrLcG9/xrbBv8P2ZspXT1qfLHyN02L/EkQMq4FFPIwRZirFZr/bDlenBOL1LUEIZalteVwZ168Mv7T43QEPgYkQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:37:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73094 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Tesla NM Factory Status: O X-Status: http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/stories/2007/02/19/daily7.html New Tesla Motors plant will create 400 local jobs New Mexico Business Weekly - 3:04 PM MST Monday, February 19, 2007 Tesla Motors plans to build a new $35 million assembly facility in Albuquerque, creating 400 high-wage jobs. Construction on the 150,000-square-foot plant is expected to begin in April. Once finished, the facility will produce Tesla's WhiteStar car -- a four-door, five passenger sports sedan that runs solely on electricity. The New Mexico plant will be the company's first U.S. facility. San Carlos, Calif.-based Tesla is expected to begin production of its first vehicle -- a zero-emmission, two-seat Roadster -- at a facility in England owned by Lotus Cars later this year. The company's U.S. headquarters will continue to be located in California, where Tesla employs more than 120 people. The 400 jobs created by the new Albuquerque facility will be new jobs rather than transfers from the California location. Tesla also recently announced the opening of an R&D facility in Rochester Hills, Mich., north of Detroit, where it expects to grow to a staff of 60 focused on design and engineering for the WhiteStar. The New Mexico plant will be built on Albuquerque's West Side at Cordera Mesa adjacent to the new Tempur-Pedic plant. The new jobs will pay between $24,000 and $100,000, plus benefits and stock options. "Today's announcement is proof that New Mexico is a national leader when it comes to innovation, new technology and creating jobs," said Gov. Bill Richardson in a news release. "Tesla is committed to clean energy and so is New Mexico. We've made New Mexico competitive, and we've committed ourselves to being the Clean Energy State." Richardson has directed the state General Services Division and other appropriate agencies to investigate the purchase of 100 WhiteStar vehicles for the state fleet over a two year period as a demonstration of the state's commitment to clean energy. Richardson also invited Tesla Motors Chairman Elon Musk and Tesla Motors CEO Martin Eberhard to work with the state to develop a package of legislation for the 2008 legislative session to provide incentives for the purchase of clean energy vehicles, including hybrid and electric vehicles. The WhiteStar cars will roll off the Albuquerque assembly line in the fall of 2009, and Tesla will produce at least 10,000 cars each year. The vehicles will cost $50,000 for the standard model or $65,000 for a premium model with greater performance and range. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 16:37:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M0bIZv017676; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:37:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M0bC5m017654; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:37:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:37:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <23ee01c75619$97d77740$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:37:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1M0bBQq017623 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73095 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of course, what would be the difference? Would a paddle boat pushing against the quay (i.e. acting as a pump, pumping water backwards) work any differently than when it's on the move? It's still paddles, or whatever, pushing a medium backwards in order for the craft to go forwards if nothing prevents it (the quay for the paddle boat, excessive weight in the case of the Leonardo copter) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > Michel Jullian wrote: > > >> >> Indeed. It would be like insisting that a helicopter doesn't work by pushing >> itself against the air, it just doesn't make sense scientifically. But I guess >> it does make sense economically for the people who make a living on promoting >> the more mysterious hypotheses :) >> > > > The design in the attachment is suppose to fly by pushing the air. Well > it will certainly push air but it won't fly. However, it can be made to work > as a pump. > > But suppose it did fly...would knowing how it works as pump be sufficient > to explain how it flies? > > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 16:39:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M0dGsq018095; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:39:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M0dEZ4018084; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:39:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:39:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <23ef01c75619$e133ada0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:39:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1M0dD32018065 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73096 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters Status: O X-Status: Yes I have read it a long time ago, the poor fellows just didn't have a clue :) Anyway beware that what they call "ionic drift" is what the rest of the world calls ion wind (ion induced wind of neutrals, as in paddle induced flow of water), aka ion drag, aka electric wind, aka corona wind, and what they call "ballistic ionic wind" or "ionic wind" has nothing to do with ion wind. If they had known the correct terms they might have found relevant literature on the subject lol :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:26 PM Subject: [Vo]: Army paper on lifters > > Kyle and Michel, > > You have likely seen this paper already, > but if you haven't you can download it (about 1MB) from here: > > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/arl_fac/0211001.pdf > > Here is the paper's abstract: > > --------- > Army Research Laboratory > Adelphi, MD 20783-1197 > > Force on an Asymmetric Capacitor by Thomas B. Bahder and Chris Fazi > > ARL-TR-XXX March 2003 > > Approved for public release, distribution unlimited. > > When a high voltage (~30 kV) is applied to a capacitor whose electrodes have > different physical dimensions, the capacitor experiences a net force toward > the smaller electrode (Biefeld-Brown effect). We have verified this effect > by building four capacitors of different shapes. The effect may have > applications to vehicle propulsion and dielectric pumps. We review the > history of this effect briefly through the history of patents by Thomas > Townsend Brown. At present, the physical basis for the Biefeld-Brown > effect is not understood. The order of magnitude of the net force on the > asymmetric capacitor is estimated assuming two different mechanisms of > charge conduction between its electrodes: ballistic ionic wind and ionic > drift. The calculations indicate that ionic wind is at least three orders of > magnitude too small to explain the magnitude of the observed force on the > capacitor. The ionic drift transport assumption leads to the correct order > of magnitude for the force, however, it is difficult to see how ionic drift > enters into the theory. Finally, we present a detailed thermodynamic > treatment of the net force on an asymmetric capacitor. In the future, to > understand this effect, a detailed theoretical model must be constructed > that takes into account plasma effects: ionization of gas (or air) in the > high electric field region, charge transport, and resulting dynamic forces > on the electrodes. The next series of experiments should determine whether > the effect occurs in vacuum, and a careful study should be carried out to > determine the dependence of the observed force on gas pressure, gas species > and applied voltage. > --------- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 16:54:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M0sPCt022293; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:54:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M0sNfB022251; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:54:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <240101c7561b$fd4dab60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:53:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1M0sKLk022216 Resent-Message-ID: <5y2-hD.A.mbF._mO3FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh dear it's unbelievable one can believe such things. My remote controlled live whales scheme pales in comparison :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? > Well I must say at first I didn't believe it, but when you look at the > evidence the planes were clearly switched. > > It starts off with the boarding of some of the flights, there were oddities > with different gates and such, very confusing, the details of one of the > planes was given, it was boarding at 2 different gates, the one it usually > boarded at and another one. > http://911wideopen.com/mirror/twin11-1/twin-11-mod.htm > There were also reports of two of the planes landing safely at an airport, > yes really. (according to the Mayor anyway: > http://www.rense.com/general68/says.htm) > > The transponder signals were turned off over an airport and turned back on, > but it would not have been possible for the plane to have pulled off the > flying required for it to be where the signal turns back on. > > Then there is the fact that people at the commercial airport would likely > have noticed the modifications (the pod which is clearly visible in all > shots all on the same side). > And then people saw not an airline plane but what they described as a cargo > plane, with no windows, painted up to look like the right flights only not. > > Then there is the fact that at least one of the planes meant to have crashed > was found to still be in service. (If I looked hard enough I could find that > article no doubt) > > The fact that the crash sites at the Pentagon and Pennsylvania simply didn't > fit, there wasn't a Boeing's wreckage, however there were wreckage parts > that could not have come from a Boeing. (A turbine that some say is the > Honeywell APU but Honeywell says isn't) > The building shows no damage from the wings, jet engines or tail. > > People at the Pentagon say they could smell Cordite. > Witnesses reported that debris rain down for minutes after the crash. > Care to calculate how high (and how directly upwards) metal debris would > need to be thrust upwards to rain down for minutes, the photos indeed show > an increase of Debris in latter photos, were Debris being sprinkled from > above? (is the idea that debris can be so high as to take minutes to fall > any less absurd?) > > Yes, there were eye witnesses that say a plane hit the Pentagon, but there > were also video cameras which were immediately taken from the hotel across > the road and other locations never to be seen again, there were also other > eye witnesses that gave other accounts. > The employees at the hotel were told never to discuss what they had seen. > (Employees watched the film several times in shock and horror before the > tape was confiscated) > > There were ham radio operators that did pick up a transmitter from the WTC > that day which ended after the hits, it was seemingly being used as a > navigation aid, also the infra red laser (not seen by people but picked up > by cameras) is plainly visible, it even projects on the smoke, why else > would someone be projecting an infra red laser normally used for painting > targets at the building?). > > They have previously flown large aircraft of such size by wire with no one > on board, successful landings and takeoffs. > > Eye witnesses at Pennsylvania say they saw a small white jet hit low objects > before going over a hill followed by the crash. > > The pilot of one the of the planes had taken part in a mock attack on the > WTC in the 80's by the Pentagon, quite the co-incidence. > > BTW no Arabs were on the flight manifest on the plane that was meant to hit > the pentagon, the autopsy report doesn't bother to invent any either. > http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm > > The families of those on the flights indeed reacted differently to other > victims families, for one they don't question the official report, even > though many of the other victims families do, along with at this point in > time a majority of people according to Zogby polls. > > Also it is well established that they couldn't have made the calls that were > meant to be have made. (people had experimented and confirmed it) > > Watch Loose Change, 2nd edition: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsyEqKQRBY > > On 2/22/07, leaking pen wrote: >> >> Umm, so, if there were no suicide pilots, who was flying? >> >> On 2/21/07, John Berry wrote: >> > That's my point exactly. >> > >> > What I am saying has solid evidence to back it up, and you counter with >> > 'Bush is a twit'. >> > Which while obviously true, no one is claiming he did any of the >> technical >> > stuff, members of the intelligence community did that. >> > Further no one is claiming there were suicide pilots on the planes, of >> any >> > race, you just show how little you've looked into it to say something >> like >> > that. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 2/22/07, Zell, Chris wrote: >> > > Perhaps the answer lies in the Monty Python sketch in which a building >> > > is maintained by hypnosis. >> > > >> > > The problem with conspiracies is the obvious contradiction with real >> > > world government competence. Take a good look >> > > at Iraq or the intellectual depth of Bush and reason accordingly. I >> > > don't see any reason why conspirators should haul >> > > Sacks of thermite and ignite them in synchrony with ( extremely >> > > reliable) suicide bombers - when explosives would do a >> > > better job. More than that, I doubt the WTC buildings were as well >> > > built as the Empire State building - when it survived >> > > A collision with a WWII vintage bomber. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> That which yields isn't always weak. >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 17:26:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M1Q7xQ031736; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:26:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M1Q6rP031720; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:26:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ciFFjGcZ6ItPMkloHMiDki1reOo/+oFbVPBZGCSsPNQ8BOC1FkUrxFPVjfxpzE1gsHYZYoRYyonQI0B/OZGqKYN2um6rjl0b7mhXi5vwyCuuQrz3clqQqEuIbiGvh3frcKPdZ2yFDZsE2bmPh5jTd9tc6mhSGqKjoilKLmxofws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ka5vnRMBw8hhYMBYQB+KEMzZyeD4l8/EplEUz66zPc27IAEoxXgXrkAs7UdEanTgpXr/JgX9l1+8m1wu0d9qYTLqCeRMqoztnsAAcdeSXN3xWbz9nUFqSfulw+gWjL+jBm9eQtL3cGfTmfWp2WsgaC7RBl5mSnqoEXB2Dja52ag= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:26:03 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <240101c7561b$fd4dab60$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17108_26833128.1172107563835" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C2029016E0@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <240101c7561b$fd4dab60$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_17108_26833128.1172107563835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Oh dear it's unbelievable one can believe such things. My remote > controlled live whales scheme pales in comparison :) Oh look, your rhetoric made solid evidence disappear. *poof* Good job you don't have to deal with all those nasty facts. ------=_Part_17108_26833128.1172107563835 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/22/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Oh dear it's unbelievable one can believe such things. My remote controlled live whales scheme pales in comparison :)

Oh look, your rhetoric made solid evidence disappear.
*poof*

Good job you don't have to deal with all those nasty facts.

------=_Part_17108_26833128.1172107563835-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 18:24:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M2OPkU030903; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:24:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M2ONfA030891; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:24:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:24:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:20:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <233b01c755e1$492ce4f0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Status: O X-Status: I would like to reconsider the tubular lifter experiment which I mentioned last week. The upper positive wire produces a positive ion cloud beneath so they repel each other. If I have understood the EHD account correctly, the force of repulsion is predicted to be greater than the force of attraction between the upper positive wire and the lower negative tube. As a result there is a net force upwards and the lifter rises. The tendency of the lower negative tube to be pulled upwards does not contribute to the net upwards force. Now, when the lifter is stationary the tube will be elevated by its attraction to the positive wire and ions. However, as seen on the video even as the lifter accelerates the tube remains elevated. While this is happening, the structural design of this particular lifter makes it logically impossible for the upper wire to be credited with lifting all the components. Based on that premise a force analysis will end in circular reasoning. Therefore the lower tube must be credited with all or at least some of the lifting force. This is inconsistent with EHD theory. I am not in the possession of any conventional, mysterious, or silly explanation of why this is so. I am just arguing that the behaviour of the parts and some basic logic suggests that it so. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 18:41:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M2evbq003569; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:40:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M2euvK003558; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:40:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:40:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DD02AD.3040305@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:40:45 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > I would like to reconsider the tubular lifter experiment which I mentioned > last week. > > The upper positive wire produces a positive ion cloud beneath so they repel > each other. If I have understood the EHD account correctly, the force of > repulsion is predicted to be greater than the force of attraction between > the upper positive wire and the lower negative tube. As a result there is a > net force upwards and the lifter rises. The tendency of the lower negative > tube to be pulled upwards does not contribute to the net upwards force. > > Now, when the lifter is stationary the tube will be elevated by its > attraction to the positive wire and ions. However, as seen on the video even > as the lifter accelerates the tube remains elevated. While this is > happening, the structural design of this particular lifter makes it > logically impossible for the upper wire to be credited with lifting all the > components. Based on that premise a force analysis will end in circular > reasoning. Therefore the lower tube must be credited with all or at least > some of the lifting force. This is inconsistent with EHD theory. This _sounds_ remarkably like some of the weird things you can do with the Bernoulli effect. Have you ever tried to blow a ping pong ball out of a funnel, by blowing in through the point of the funnel? If you start blowing with the funnel "upright", with the ball just held in by gravity, and you have enough lung power, you can actually turn it upside down and as long as you keep blowing, the ping pong ball will "stick" until you stop blowing. (Experiment last tried in Junior High School, so don't press me on the details!) A breeze from the wire to the tube, passing around the tube, could very well exert a pull on the tube, rather than a push, as you might have expected. (It all depends on the direction the air flow takes once it "breaks away" from the surface -- if it goes part way around the tube and breaks away while heading down, conservation of momentum says the force on the tube is up, not down. But Bernoulli must enter the game to explain how that could possibly work.) It is often very difficult to "see" which item is being "pushed on" when thrust is exerted on gas. A ram jet is another wonderful example (though unrelated to the Bernoulli effect, AFAIK) -- the air comes in the front, accelerates, and goes out the back, so the engine develops thrust -- but unlike a turbofan there's nothing /obvious/ for the air to "push against". At first glance it seems like it can't possibly work. > > I am not in the possession of any conventional, mysterious, or silly > explanation of why this is so. I am just arguing that the behaviour of the > parts and some basic logic suggests that it so. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 19:38:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M3cPkB026708; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:38:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M3cOFo026699; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:38:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:38:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:34:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <23ee01c75619$97d77740$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, a paddle boat is either a pump or a boat depending on how you wish to use the boat's paddles. Are saying Leonardo's copter could lift itself in theory if it were light enough? That would be something to see. I always thought it was impossible in theory. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Of course, what would be the difference? Would a paddle boat pushing against > the quay (i.e. acting as a pump, pumping water backwards) work any differently > than when it's on the move? It's still paddles, or whatever, pushing a medium > backwards in order for the craft to go forwards if nothing prevents it (the > quay for the paddle boat, excessive weight in the case of the Leonardo copter) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>> >>> Indeed. It would be like insisting that a helicopter doesn't work by pushing >>> itself against the air, it just doesn't make sense scientifically. But I >>> guess >>> it does make sense economically for the people who make a living on >>> promoting >>> the more mysterious hypotheses :) >>> >> >> >> The design in the attachment is suppose to fly by pushing the air. Well >> it will certainly push air but it won't fly. However, it can be made to work >> as a pump. >> >> But suppose it did fly...would knowing how it works as pump be sufficient >> to explain how it flies? >> >> >> Harry >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 21:04:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M54Vvm014466; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:04:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M54TYa014453; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:04:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:04:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:03:03 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070220153337.03643f28@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200702220003.03090.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220153337.03643f28@mindspring.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 20 February 2007 15:47, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >>The Iranians are destroying their own oil fields without help from > >>us. Their fields are in such poor shape from mismanagement and bad > >>technology that the country will soon not be able to produce enough > >>for its own domestic consumption. > > > >Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually > >be interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? > > I do not think so. If they are worried about the degradation of their > oil fields (as they should be), the logical thing to do would be to > spend money on new equipment and to hire experts to improve the > extraction techniques. > > >I've read a number of times that Iranian claims that they want > >nuclear power to generate electricity doesn't pass the "laugh test". > > I have heard that too. I know little about their politics and cannot > judge, but strictly from a technical point of view, I think it would > be a great idea for them to buy a nuclear power plant. This would > reduce pollution and free up their natural gas for sale overseas. > Also nuclear power is cheaper than any other kind, even when you are > sitting on a sea of natural gas. > > Perhaps they run their electric power generators on oil, the way > North Korea does. In that case they are burning money and it would be > far cheaper to go to nuclear power or even coal. > > > Well, if their oils is really running out that fast, maybe the > > ones who said that (mostly American officials, IIRC) were just > > trying to laugh off the possibility that Iran really _does_ want > > nuclear energy for something besides building bombs. > > The oil is not running out exactly; it is becoming permanently > inaccessible because the extraction technology is bad. If they buy > the latest equipment now, their reserves will last much longer. As I > said, the oil is not actually lost. It is still underground, of > course, but it takes as much energy to get it out as you get from > burning it. In the early 20th century in the US and Russia tremendous > amounts of oil were permanently lost because of "wildcatting"-style > bad oil-field management, according to Deffeyes. > > I do not know if they are seriously interested in fission power but I > do know that many Iranian scientists at universities and government > research labs have downloaded the files at LENR-CANR.org, so > evidently they are interested in cold fusion. I welcome their interest. > > - Jed Remember the Hindenberg? What, not old enough? Well we all saw the frantic newscast and the fiery pictures often enough if we have even been marginally educated. Most commentators blamed the Germans for being 'stupid' for building a hydrogen derigible or at least fueling it with hydrogen. The darker truth was that we Americans refused to sell them any helium, and allied business interests controlled the entire supply of helium. The Germans had no choice but to use hydrogen if they were going to fly a derigible, and they were too proud to admit that they were not allowed to buy it. A similar analogy may hold for Iran. It may not be a lack of oil field expertise but a lack of the proper oil field equipment that is the root cause of their problems if in fact they are in the position stated at the outset of this thread. Being devil's advocate and accepting the initial premise, and then going further to agree with the premise that the Iranians are running out of supply unless they can get help from outside 'western?!' oil interests, then why is that help not forthcoming? Why are not the major oil monopoly interests interested in trooping into Iran for a share of the spoils? Could it be that the Iranians are being quietly shaken down and like the Germans with the Hindenberg too proud to admit it. Could it be that the same monopoly that is siphoning off Iraqi oil and profiteering with it in the United States is demanding concessions in the oil industry that the Iranians are not prepared to stoop to? Of course the Iranians, facing an energy problem born of western equipment embargos, would seek to alleviate this problem by seeking nuclear energy. Devil's advocating further, could it be that our 'enlightened governments' know this too but are choosing to make accusations of attempted bomb making known to be false in a bald faced attempt to blackmail the Iranians into surrenduring their oil fields to foreign interests at bargain basement prices while Iranians live in poverty.....like the Nigerians. Of course we could 'give them a reactor' that does not produce 'radiation', but such a thing would require fuel, and we all know who controls the supply of that. So now they would simply trade one dependance for another at a higher price. Now the Iranians want to create the complete fuel cycle so that they would be the master of their own economy. Monopoly interests do not want to let them do that, for then they would be truly independant, and the oil monopolies that control our administration seem to be very afraid of this. So the United States' administration continues to make threats backing up the lie that Iranians are wanting N-weapons, and the Iranians, their backs to the wall, are too proud to give up the dream of every free peoples for freedom and independance. Still devil's advocatin, this could logically lead inexorably to war; moreover, a war where we Americans would be morally wrong. The GI in the trenches would know this first and would quickly find out just who they would be expected to die for. Americans do not like to be used as mercenaries for international cartels that care less about them individually than the dust under their shoes, and would rightly start refusing to fight. They are doing so already. There is the ugly story of contaminated fuel sold by American/Saudi monopoly interests being foisted on 'allied military and civilian contractors, and the victims of this scam being stranded on dangerous roads all over Iraq to be easily picked off by the jihadis. When the survivors of that scam were ordered to use that fuel and keep quiet about it, many refused and were then prosecuted for 'failure to repair'...UCMJ Articles 15 and 32. So now continues yet again another version of the Great Game. Another writer stated that the disgraceful 'deal' with North Korea is to 'clear' the way for action in Iran should it 'come to that'. The US administration is making a bad bargain, as North Koreans subscribe to the 'ends justify the means', an old communist moral code artical of faith, and will break any word or treaty if it is expedient; and the sight of their 'arch-enemy' fully commited in one place would be too great an opportunity to ignore. On the other hand, a treaty with Iran if obtainable would probably be kept by a people and religion sworn to tell the truth and uphold ones word of honor as a fundamental tenet of their religion. Look at the history of the Iran/Iraq war and re-read what passed for 'news' from Iraqi Baathist sources as opposed to that from Iran in the same period and judge for yourself. We have the dangerous situation of being led by self righteous men and women who have cocooned themselves in a fortress mentality much as Nixon in the early 70's and Hitler after 1943. With only a few international corporate racketeers and a cental core of the administration talking to each other and ignoring or firing all others at advisory levels, it is little wonder the resulting policies seem disjointed, opaque, and totally lacking in intelligence. This in case of war will guarantee huge casualties on our side. The British know this, they suffered terribly in 'Irak' during the twenties by trying to do too much with too little. That is why they are bailing out now while the getting is good and the road to escape is open. They know! By the way, what we have now is not 'war'. Read the United States Constitution! Only Congress can declare war! They have not done so. Declarations of War are explicit statements plainly understandible by all, and say the words 'declaration of war' in them. da Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 21:18:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M5IEns021566; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:18:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M5ICex021548; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:18:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:18:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:14:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) In-reply-to: <45DD02AD.3040305@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> I would like to reconsider the tubular lifter experiment which I mentioned >> last week. >> >> The upper positive wire produces a positive ion cloud beneath so they repel >> each other. If I have understood the EHD account correctly, the force of >> repulsion is predicted to be greater than the force of attraction between >> the upper positive wire and the lower negative tube. As a result there is a >> net force upwards and the lifter rises. The tendency of the lower negative >> tube to be pulled upwards does not contribute to the net upwards force. >> >> Now, when the lifter is stationary the tube will be elevated by its >> attraction to the positive wire and ions. However, as seen on the video even >> as the lifter accelerates the tube remains elevated. While this is >> happening, the structural design of this particular lifter makes it >> logically impossible for the upper wire to be credited with lifting all the >> components. Based on that premise a force analysis will end in circular >> reasoning. Therefore the lower tube must be credited with all or at least >> some of the lifting force. This is inconsistent with EHD theory. > > This _sounds_ remarkably like some of the weird things you can do with > the Bernoulli effect. Have you ever tried to blow a ping pong ball out > of a funnel, by blowing in through the point of the funnel? If you > start blowing with the funnel "upright", with the ball just held in by > gravity, and you have enough lung power, you can actually turn it upside > down and as long as you keep blowing, the ping pong ball will "stick" > until you stop blowing. (Experiment last tried in Junior High School, > so don't press me on the details!) The coanda effect? > A breeze from the wire to the tube, passing around the tube, could very > well exert a pull on the tube, rather than a push, as you might have > expected. (It all depends on the direction the air flow takes once it > "breaks away" from the surface -- if it goes part way around the tube > and breaks away while heading down, conservation of momentum says the > force on the tube is up, not down. But Bernoulli must enter the game to > explain how that could possibly work.) In theory this phenomena eliminates the logical problem, but in reality is the air moving fast enough over the tube to actually lift the tube? How would you test this? > It is often very difficult to "see" which item is being "pushed on" when > thrust is exerted on gas. A ram jet is another wonderful example > (though unrelated to the Bernoulli effect, AFAIK) -- the air comes in > the front, accelerates, and goes out the back, so the engine develops > thrust -- but unlike a turbofan there's nothing /obvious/ for the air to > "push against". At first glance it seems like it can't possibly work. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 22:09:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M68tqH018476; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:08:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M68rtU018465; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:08:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:08:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:05:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters In-reply-to: <23ef01c75619$e133ada0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4Ue5m.A.YgE.1NT3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Yes I have read it a long time ago, the poor fellows just didn't have a clue > :) Are you a professional arbiter of some kind? 'Cause it really shows. ;-) > Anyway beware that what they call "ionic drift" is what the rest of the world > calls ion wind (ion induced wind of neutrals, as in paddle induced flow of > water), aka ion drag, aka electric wind, aka corona wind, and what they call > "ballistic ionic wind" or "ionic wind" has nothing to do with ion wind. If > they had known the correct terms they might have found relevant literature on > the subject lol :) > > Michel For this phenomena drift and wind are both misleading terms...if you ask me. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 23:12:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M7BpAl027361; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:11:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M799B3026497; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:09:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:09:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:04:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <233b01c755e1$492ce4f0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1M798Aj026479 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73105 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > I wrote the other day: > >> BTW2 the derivation is elegant but admittedly it could be a little more >> rigorous wrt distinguishing between scalars and vectors. > > For more clarity in this respect, I enclose an annotated version of Sigmond's > derivation for the lifter thrust (or rather it's opposite namely the force > exerted by the ions on the air), where I have added arrow signs to the vector > variables plus a few words of explanations. I hope it helps. > > Corrections welcome. I don't doubt your math skills. In the future I might ask for your help in that department. However, what about the force of reaction by the air on the ions? Unless this force exceeds the force exerted by the ions on the air the lifter will not rise. If it is less than this, the lifter is just an air pump. > Michel > > P.S. For those not familiar with the ion mobility concept, the fine zig zag > trajectory due to the multiple collisions of an ion ploughing through the > medium's neutrals under the effect of an electric field distribution is > commonly modeled by a smooth path along the local electric field line (which, > as may not be obvious, can have any odd shape in Sigmond's derivation > including a forwards and then backwards path as is the case for ions emitted > from the front part of the wire), with ion velocity vi equal to the "ion > mobility" µ (ion and medium specific statistical parameter) times the local > electric field modulus E (which is not assumed to be constant along the path > in the derivation, which is a good thing since it isn't!). Cool. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 23:35:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M7Yx32004884; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:34:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M7YwbD004861; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:34:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:34:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:34:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1jhqt2pei7q52llannbllqe8pevjcfgc3g@4ax.com> References: <233b01c755e1$492ce4f0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:34:52 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1M7Yt2p004840 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:20:29 -0500: Hi, [snip] >The upper positive wire produces a positive ion cloud beneath so they repel >each other. If I have understood the EHD account correctly, the force of >repulsion is predicted to be greater than the force of attraction between >the upper positive wire and the lower negative tube. As a result there is a [snip] The wire creates a positive cloud. The tube attached to the negative terminal is negative, and hence attracts the positive air cloud. This pulls the tube up, and the cloud down. When the positive cloud comes in contact with the tube, it is neutralized, but the power source soon creates more positive ions around the wire, and concurrently pumps more electrons into the tube. The only force of repulsion is between the cloud and the wire, however this pushes the cloud down, while the cathode pulls the cloud down. IOW both wire and tube work together, there is no opposing force. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 00:01:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M81n7h021286; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:01:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M81lGc021268; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:01:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:01:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:57:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) In-reply-to: <1jhqt2pei7q52llannbllqe8pevjcfgc3g@4ax.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:20:29 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> The upper positive wire produces a positive ion cloud beneath so they repel >> each other. If I have understood the EHD account correctly, the force of >> repulsion is predicted to be greater than the force of attraction between >> the upper positive wire and the lower negative tube. As a result there is a > [snip] > The wire creates a positive cloud. The tube attached to the negative terminal > is > negative, and hence attracts the positive air cloud. This pulls the tube up, > and > the cloud down. When the positive cloud comes in contact with the tube, it is > neutralized, but the power source soon creates more positive ions around the > wire, and concurrently pumps more electrons into the tube. Wouldn't this make the tube noticeably oscillate up and down? > The only force of repulsion is between the cloud and the wire, however this > pushes the cloud down, while the cathode pulls the cloud down. IOW both wire > and > tube work together, there is no opposing force. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Taken as whole this differs from Michel's explanation. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 00:36:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M8ao7H012508; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:36:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M8amC9012492; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:36:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:36:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <246901c7565c$97308d70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:36:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1M8ajer012447 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Taken as whole this differs from Michel's explanation. No it doesn't, this is exactly it. The only thing missing in Robin's excellent explanation is that the ion cloud in its downwards motion pushes against the neutral ambient air it ploughs through (otherwise there would be no net lift) The tube doesn't oscillate because the process Robin described is continuous. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:20:29 -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>> The upper positive wire produces a positive ion cloud beneath so they repel >>> each other. If I have understood the EHD account correctly, the force of >>> repulsion is predicted to be greater than the force of attraction between >>> the upper positive wire and the lower negative tube. As a result there is a >> [snip] >> The wire creates a positive cloud. The tube attached to the negative terminal >> is >> negative, and hence attracts the positive air cloud. This pulls the tube up, >> and >> the cloud down. When the positive cloud comes in contact with the tube, it is >> neutralized, but the power source soon creates more positive ions around the >> wire, and concurrently pumps more electrons into the tube. > > Wouldn't this make the tube noticeably oscillate up and down? > >> The only force of repulsion is between the cloud and the wire, however this >> pushes the cloud down, while the cathode pulls the cloud down. IOW both wire >> and >> tube work together, there is no opposing force. >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk > > Taken as whole this differs from Michel's explanation. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 00:51:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1M8pOco023951; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:51:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1M8pIeU023885; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:51:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:51:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <1jhqt2pei7q52llannbllqe8pevjcfgc3g@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:51:13 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1M8pFWq023797 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:57:25 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> The wire creates a positive cloud. The tube attached to the negative terminal >> is >> negative, and hence attracts the positive air cloud. This pulls the tube up, >> and >> the cloud down. When the positive cloud comes in contact with the tube, it is >> neutralized, but the power source soon creates more positive ions around the >> wire, and concurrently pumps more electrons into the tube. > >Wouldn't this make the tube noticeably oscillate up and down? No, because there is a continuous stream of air and current. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 02:03:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MA2rau004615; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:02:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MA2phQ004601; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:02:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <247801c75668$9c7e5120$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:02:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1MA2nIA004580 Resent-Message-ID: <356EX.A.1HB.LpW3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see nothing misleading in either term Harry, drift describes accurately what the ions do wrt the neutrals, and wind describes accurately what the neutrals do while entrained by the drifting ions. I agree "ion wind" is misleading though, because it could easily be mistaken for "ionic wind" (a wind of ions). It would have been better to call it "ion induced wind" or "ion entrained wind". Note there are many scientific terms which would benefit from a change, e.g. anode and cathode should be renamed by their original names eisode and exode as I mentioned once cf wikipedia, but one can't change engrained habits, think of all the textbooks which would have to be rewritten :-) Michel Professional arbiter, whale herder, etymologist, and general purpose mad scientist ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters ... >> Anyway beware that what they call "ionic drift" is what the rest of the world >> calls ion wind (ion induced wind of neutrals, as in paddle induced flow of >> water), aka ion drag, aka electric wind, aka corona wind, and what they call >> "ballistic ionic wind" or "ionic wind" has nothing to do with ion wind. If >> they had known the correct terms they might have found relevant literature on >> the subject lol :) >> >> Michel > > For this phenomena drift and wind are both misleading terms...if you ask me. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 03:09:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MB8ckK004826; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:08:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MB8aUN004787; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:08:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:08:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:08:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1MB8UlS004692 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:25:32 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Perhaps the fact that the president of Iran asserted that their goal is >to erase Israel from the map has something to do with it. > >The actual phrase, reported in LeMonde IIRC, was something like "rayer >Israel de la carte" -- the word "rayer" stuck in my mind; it's pretty >dramatic when applied to an entire country. AFAIK LeMonde doesn't take >orders from Bush so, even though I haven't seen the original speech, I >expect the French translation was not too far off base. As I understood it at the time, he should Israel "should" be .... There is a big difference between stating an opinion, and stating an actual intention to act. Whether or not Israel has nuclear weapons, everyone in the middle-east believes they do, and consequently no one is going to attack them. Hence it is IMO fairly clear that Ahmadinejad speaks his opinions freely, and that the US administration and media do their utmost to paint it as black as possible. > >Since this went hand in hand with Ahmednejad's bellicose assertions that >Iran has every right to pursue their nuclear program without outside >intervention or oversight, ..which of course they do, though if they wish to pursue it free of oversight, they should withdraw from the nuclear non-proliferation pact. Of course, doing this is as good as admitting that they want to produce weapons. Not that they have any less right to such weapons than anyone else. If Israel is so worried about Iran, then they could end their problems overnight, simply by coming to an equitable agreement with the Palestinians. For what it's worth, if it were up to me, I would excise (old?) Jerusalem from both Israel and Palestine, and make it a small city state, similar to Vatican City, but governed by a 7 member board, comprising 2 members from each of the major religions, and 1 secularly elected member. Having an odd number ensures that there is never a tied vote. With Jerusalem out of the way, it would be much easier for both parties to reach an agreement on boarders. >and with his rejection (or disregard) of >Russia's offer to provide the pre-enriched fuel for their reactors in >order to avoid the need for (weapons-convertible) enrichment facilities >in Iran, it made a lot of people understandably nervous about what the >future might hold if Iran's course is not changed. Only they get nervous who don't look deeply enough, or listen carefully enough. > >According to at least one apologist for Iran found on the Internet, the >literal phrase used meant "This occupation regime over Jerusalem must >vanish from the page of time.” That doesn't sound a whole lot better to >me than the French version, frankly, and in this case, I'm inclined to >trust the translators who most likely knew what the Persian idiom meant >when they translated it to "rayer de la carte" -- which, by the way, >means exactly what it sounds like it means. Still, it's just his opinion, not a statement of policy. BTW note that my suggestion hereabove might satisfy his wish. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 03:18:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MBHt9K014578; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:17:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MBHr9o014538; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:17:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:17:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:17:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:17:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1MBHluK014331 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:08:28 +1100: Hi, [snip] >As I understood it at the time, he should Israel "should" be .... ^^^^^^ said Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 06:23:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MEN2re000876; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:23:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MEMvec000843; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:22:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:22:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7568C.D5C11673" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:22:08 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294DFA7@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221173635.0365c910@mindspring.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Thread-Index: AcdWDdD/DhCpequzT+6auKFDnV4wSwAfL9ag From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2007 14:22:09.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[D66DD1C0:01C7568C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7568C.D5C11673 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? =20 Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of government are utter traitors and sociopaths - and that they are little more than obsequious thralls to a nearly all powerful military-industrial complex. The only people wise enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe investigators. =20 Anybody old enough to remember "None Dare Call It Conspiracy"? How we would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon? =20 =20 Yes, from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator: "what do mean, we can't use the elevator !?") to switched planes ( "Dammit, Fred, you lost the luggage and the explosives?") - it's all hopeless and we're doomed. It's out of our control and we are powerless - in the face of such clockwork like precision and coordination among men who conspire with such amazing cohesion. =20 We're just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it all. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7568C.D5C11673 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 =20 What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are = correct,  it's=20 all futile and irrelevant.  How so?
 
Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of = government are utter traitors and sociopaths  - and that they are = little=20 more than obsequious thralls
to a=20 nearly all powerful military-industrial complex.  The only people = wise=20 enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe=20 investigators.
 
Anybody old enough to remember "None Dare Call It = Conspiracy"?  How=20 we would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon?  =
 
Yes,=20 from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator:  "what do mean, we can't use = the=20 elevator !?")  to switched planes ( "Dammit,  Fred, you lost = the=20 luggage and the explosives?")  -  it's all hopeless and we're=20 doomed.  It's out of our control and we are powerless  - in = the face=20 of such clockwork like precision and coordination
among=20 men who conspire with such amazing cohesion.
 
We're=20 just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it = all.
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C7568C.D5C11673-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 06:34:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MEXu3M023143; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:34:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MEXsVU023125; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:33:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:33:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cWfp/qfInlW3WiP+TEtpQS4Np9cFAywY2Ke6y6L/m7vbnDFASMJsAEt0dwk6F/MSB3sQdVW5Oiip+LKI+KVg8daQW6S7pL/6RJOOaBk+JPl5Oekg+d+jrhUAH0tWkvQ3jP2X0qDuz5j21JQBhflw+6NXSgLD+MkFWpnGr9IPHJc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=pP7mz7FAwMpAcCQLW6wngbYaiKldMVb8+KiupGv3OtwfkM6CgPJLrjB2HBNiIMzFNsYBTph+sS9PlItlrWzj/kmoffTEc4pOqHLRrloRYXbBTJA7bAFB3M2i9R7EzvF1TZ3VI9iD+2KJnyii2gA2JMFxbT+FucsGRO2xt4HQATs= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:33:53 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294DFA7@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25669_5680563.1172154833037" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221173635.0365c910@mindspring.com> <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294DFA7@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_25669_5680563.1172154833037 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well aren't we the little pessimist? Tell me, is Hitler still in power? On 2/23/07, Zell, Chris wrote: > > What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are correct, > it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? > > Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of government > are utter traitors and sociopaths - and that they are little more than > obsequious thralls > to a nearly all powerful military-industrial complex. The only people > wise enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe > investigators. > > Anybody old enough to remember "None Dare Call It Conspiracy"? How we > would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon? > > Yes, from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator: "what do mean, we can't use > the elevator !?") to switched planes ( "Dammit, Fred, you lost the luggage > and the explosives?") - it's all hopeless and we're doomed. It's out of > our control and we are powerless - in the face of such clockwork like > precision and coordination > among men who conspire with such amazing cohesion. > > We're just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it all. > > > ------=_Part_25669_5680563.1172154833037 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well aren't we the little pessimist?

Tell me, is Hitler still in power?

On 2/23/07, Zell, Chris <CZell@wetmtv.com > wrote:
  What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are correct,  it's all futile and irrelevant.  How so?
 
Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of government are utter traitors and sociopaths  - and that they are little more than obsequious thralls
to a nearly all powerful military-industrial complex.  The only people wise enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe investigators.
 
Anybody old enough to remember "None Dare Call It Conspiracy"?  How we would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon? 
 
Yes, from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator:  "what do mean, we can't use the elevator !?")  to switched planes ( "Dammit,  Fred, you lost the luggage and the explosives?")  -  it's all hopeless and we're doomed.  It's out of our control and we are powerless  - in the face of such clockwork like precision and coordination
among men who conspire with such amazing cohesion.
 
We're just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it all.
 
 

------=_Part_25669_5680563.1172154833037-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 06:40:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MEe2L3026698; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:40:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MEZNID023996; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:35:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:35:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070222092535.036fb120@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:35:15 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Israeli nukes Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Whether or not Israel has nuclear weapons, everyone in the >middle-east believes they do . . . I am sure they do. I have it on good authority, and besides, it has often been described in the news. They do not have many warheads, but measured in targeting ability, size and yield and so on, they have some of the most sophisticated weapons in the world, technically far ahead of China, for example. They have to deny the existence of these weapons but they also have to leak enough information about them so that everyone knows they have them. There is no point to possessing a doomsday weapon if your enemies do not know you have it. They also have, or will soon have, a submarine capable of launching a nuclear missile second strike. I deplore nuclear weapons and I hate to say this, but if any country anywhere needs them, I suppose it would be Israel. The last country on earth that needs nukes is Japan, but some of their right wing fanatics -- including some in government -- have been talking about making them. They have the technical ability to make them in a matter of months. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 06:59:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MEx64B019498; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:59:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MEx5C5019478; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:59:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 06:59:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DDAFAF.6080209@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:58:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220153337.03643f28@mindspring.com> <200702220003.03090.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> In-Reply-To: <200702220003.03090.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5CbRsD.A.PwE.4-a3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > > > Remember the Hindenberg? What, not old enough? Well we all saw the > frantic newscast and the fiery pictures often enough if we have even been > marginally educated. Most commentators blamed the Germans for being > 'stupid' for building a hydrogen derigible or at least fueling it with > hydrogen. The darker truth was that we Americans refused to sell them any > helium, and allied business interests controlled the entire supply of helium. And the surprising truth, learned years later, was that the hydrogen had little or nothing to do with the fire. The fabric was painted with airplane dope and was horribly flammable; once it caught there was nothing that could stop it, and had the bags inside been filled with helium it would probably have made no difference. For a little bit of evidence accessible to anyone (not just experts): Dig those flames in the news reels! And then recall that hydrogen burns with an invisible flame. (Had it been filled with halon, of course, it would have been a different story but that stuff's not lighter than air.) > The Germans had no choice but to use hydrogen if they were going to fly a > derigible, and they were too proud to admit that they were not allowed to buy > it. > A similar analogy may hold for Iran. It may not be a lack of oil field > expertise but a lack of the proper oil field equipment that is the root cause > of their problems if in fact they are in the position stated at the outset of > this thread. Being devil's advocate and accepting the initial premise, and > then going further to agree with the premise that the Iranians are running > out of supply unless they can get help from outside 'western?!' oil > interests, then why is that help not forthcoming? Why are not the major oil > monopoly interests interested in trooping into Iran for a share of the > spoils? Could it be that the Iranians are being quietly shaken down and > like the Germans with the Hindenberg too proud to admit it. Could it be that > the same monopoly that is siphoning off Iraqi oil and profiteering with it in > the United States is demanding concessions in the oil industry that the > Iranians are not prepared to stoop to? Of course the Iranians, facing an > energy problem born of western equipment embargos, would seek to alleviate > this problem by seeking nuclear energy. Devil's advocating further, could it > be that our 'enlightened governments' know this too One thing our current administration presumably knows very well is everything having to do with oil. So, they certainly are aware of the condition of the Iranian oilfields. > but are choosing to make > accusations of attempted bomb making known to be false in a bald faced attempt > to blackmail the Iranians into surrenduring their oil fields to foreign > interests at bargain basement prices while Iranians live in poverty.....like > the Nigerians. Of course we could 'give them a reactor' that does not > produce 'radiation', 'radiation'? Nobody cares about the radiation AFAIK. They care about the weapons-grade uranium which can be made by a home-grown enrichment facility. IOW they care about the centrifuges, /not/ the reactors. The nuclear bunker buster which is rumored to be sitting in the belly of a plane in Israel waiting for the green light is targeted for the enrichment facility, not a reactor. > but such a thing would require fuel, and we all know who > controls the supply of that. We do? I don't. I thought there were a number of countries in the nuclear fuel business, including Iran's neighbor, Russia. In fact there have been offers from Russia to handle the enrichment end of things for Iran, if they would give up their plan to do it all themselves. > So now they would simply trade one dependance > for another at a higher price. Now the Iranians want to create the complete > fuel cycle so that they would be the master of their own economy. Monopoly > interests do not want to let them do that, for then they would be truly > independant, and the oil monopolies that control our administration seem to > be very afraid of this. So the United States' administration continues to > make threats backing up the lie that Iranians are wanting N-weapons, and the > Iranians, their backs to the wall, are too proud to give up the dream of > every free peoples for freedom and independance. Still devil's advocatin, > this could logically lead inexorably to war; moreover, a war where we > Americans would be morally wrong. Like Iraq? Like Viet Nam? So new? > The GI in the trenches would know this > first and would quickly find out just who they would be expected to die for. > Americans do not like to be used as mercenaries for international cartels > that care less about them individually than the dust under their shoes, and > would rightly start refusing to fight. Like they have in Iraq? > They are doing so already. There is > the ugly story of contaminated fuel sold by American/Saudi monopoly interests > being foisted on 'allied military and civilian contractors, and the victims > of this scam being stranded on dangerous roads all over Iraq to be easily > picked off by the jihadis. When the survivors of that scam were ordered to > use that fuel and keep quiet about it, many refused and were then prosecuted > for 'failure to repair'...UCMJ Articles 15 and 32. So now continues yet > again another version of the Great Game. > Another writer stated that the disgraceful 'deal' with North Korea is to > 'clear' the way for action in Iran should it 'come to that'. The US > administration is making a bad bargain, as North Koreans subscribe to the > 'ends justify the means', an old communist moral code artical of faith, and > will break any word or treaty if it is expedient; and the sight of their > 'arch-enemy' fully commited in one place would be too great an opportunity > to ignore. On the other hand, a treaty with Iran if obtainable would probably > be kept by a people and religion sworn to tell the truth and uphold ones word > of honor as a fundamental tenet of their religion. Look at the history of the > Iran/Iraq war and re-read what passed for 'news' from Iraqi Baathist sources > as opposed to that from Iran in the same period and judge for yourself. The Iraqi Baathists are Muslims, too, FWIW. Last I heard, anyway. They just disagree over with the Iranians over whether or not the fourth calif was a murderous psychopath, or something like that. > We have the dangerous situation of being led by self righteous men and > women who have cocooned themselves in a fortress mentality much as > Nixon in the early 70's and Hitler after 1943. With only a few international > corporate racketeers and a cental core of the administration talking to each > other and ignoring or firing all others at advisory levels, it is little > wonder the resulting policies seem disjointed, opaque, and totally lacking > in intelligence. This in case of war will guarantee huge casualties on our > side. The British know this, they suffered terribly in 'Irak' during the > twenties by trying to do too much with too little. That is why they are > bailing out now while the getting is good and the road to escape is open. > They know! > By the way, what we have now is not 'war'. Read the United States > Constitution! Only Congress can declare war! They have not done so. Have we had any real war since WWII? This is a serious question. Viet Nam wasn't, of course. I don't think Korea was, either, but I'm not sure about that. Desert Storm took place without a declaration of war, AFAICR. Reagan had one or two little dustups which also involved no declaration of war. Clinton's missile attack on a pharmaceutical plant certainly didn't involve a declaration of war. > Declarations of War are explicit statements plainly understandible by all, > and say the words 'declaration of war' in them. And then Bush would be Commander in Chief for real, with some additional powers he doesn't currently have. I'm very glad they haven't declared war. Like ancient Rome, when the gates of war are opened, the United States acquires an Emperor for the duration; it reverts to its more democratic status only when the war ends. > > da Bear > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 07:03:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MF31b0017174; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:03:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MF2wsk017143; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:02:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:02:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75692.6B7E983B" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:02:07 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294E077@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Thread-Index: AcdWjnE/XBpeV29CRfWVwOAF9cv0MgAA6QPg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2007 15:02:08.0482 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C41E420:01C75692] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75692.6B7E983B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:34 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. Tell me, is Hitler still in power? =20 =20 =20 No, but his evident followers apparently are - and have built an astounding conspiracy in 9-11 to perpetuate themselves in rulership. It's amazing.=20 On 2/23/07, Zell, Chris wrote:=20 What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? =20 Because it would mean that vast numbers of people in and out of government are utter traitors and sociopaths - and that they are little more than obsequious thralls to a nearly all powerful military-industrial complex. The only people wise enough to see the plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe investigators. =20 Anybody old enough to remember "None Dare Call It Conspiracy"? How we would all live in a fascist USA thanks to Nixon? =20 =20 Yes, from sacks of thermite ( Conspirator: "what do mean, we can't use the elevator !?") to switched planes ( "Dammit, Fred, you lost the luggage and the explosives?") - it's all hopeless and we're doomed. It's out of our control and we are powerless - in the face of such clockwork like precision and coordination among men who conspire with such amazing cohesion. =20 We're just screwed - and thank God someone has exposed it all. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75692.6B7E983B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

From: John Berry = [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:34 AM
To:=20 vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and = any=20 other unsure.


Tell me, is Hitler still in power?   
 
 
No,  but his evident followers apparently are  - = and have=20 built an astounding conspiracy in 9-11 to perpetuate themselves in=20 rulership.  It's amazing. 

On 2/23/07, Zell,=20 Chris <CZell@wetmtv.com = >=20 wrote:
  What = conspiracy fans=20 miss is that if all their theories are correct,  it's all futile = and=20 irrelevant.  How so?
 
Because it = would mean that=20 vast numbers of people in and out of government are utter traitors and = sociopaths  - and that they are little more than obsequious=20 thralls
to a nearly all = powerful=20 military-industrial complex.  The only people wise enough to see = the=20 plots are clever internet bloggers and fringe=20 investigators.
 
Anybody old = enough to=20 remember "None Dare Call It Conspiracy"?  How we would all live = in a=20 fascist USA thanks to Nixon? 
 
Yes, from sacks = of thermite (=20 Conspirator:  "what do mean, we can't use the elevator !?")  = to=20 switched planes ( "Dammit,  Fred, you lost the luggage and the=20 explosives?")  -  it's all hopeless and we're doomed.  = It's out=20 of our control and we are powerless  - in the face of such = clockwork like=20 precision and coordination
among men who = conspire with=20 such amazing cohesion.
 
We're just = screwed - and=20 thank God someone has exposed it all.
 
 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75692.6B7E983B-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 07:15:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MFEwsk030795; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:14:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MFEuEj030769; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:14:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:14:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070222100749.036fb120@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:14:51 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <45DDAFAF.6080209@pobox.com> References: <200702191557.l1JFv0Q4003100@mail2.mx.voyager.net> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220153337.03643f28@mindspring.com> <200702220003.03090.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> <45DDAFAF.6080209@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <27XIVB.A.ogH.wNb3FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hindenburg disaster Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >And the surprising truth, learned years later, was that the hydrogen >had little or nothing to do with the fire. This was discussed in the book, "Tomorrow's Energy." See the essay, "Don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." Frankly, I disagree. No doubt the burning fabric contributed to the fire, but I expect the flame was started by hydrogen. Other famous airship accidents were caused by hydrogen explosions, notably the R101 disaster in France (1930), and all of the German airships shot down in World War I. The R101 skin was soaking wet when the ship exploded, so I do not think the fire started there. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 07:35:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MFZ4XG003035; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:35:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MFZ2xJ002992; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:35:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:35:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DDB81D.90201@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:34:53 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070219113636.03604280@mindspring.com> <45DB2131.4EC5C6B9@centurytel.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220110654.0362c8a8@mindspring.com> <45DB444B.4040400@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070220180800.03681ad8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070221110145.036812d8@mindspring.com> <45DC8E9C.20102@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:25:32 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> Perhaps the fact that the president of Iran asserted that their goal is >> to erase Israel from the map has something to do with it. >> >> The actual phrase, reported in LeMonde IIRC, was something like "rayer >> Israel de la carte" -- the word "rayer" stuck in my mind; it's pretty >> dramatic when applied to an entire country. AFAIK LeMonde doesn't take >> orders from Bush so, even though I haven't seen the original speech, I >> expect the French translation was not too far off base. > > As I understood it at the time, he should Israel "should" be .... I think you're right about that. > There is a big difference between stating an opinion, and stating an actual > intention to act. Right, but if you're the president of a country it is good to recall that people often take your "opinion" as being identical with your personal game plan. Which points up another assertion, which is that Ahmednejad is a fool. > Whether or not Israel has nuclear weapons, everyone in the > middle-east believes they do, and consequently no one is going to attack them. > Hence it is IMO fairly clear that Ahmadinejad speaks his opinions freely, and > that the US administration and media do their utmost to paint it as black as > possible. So do the French, Canadian, and British media, then, or so it would seem. I don't see the U.S. media unless I go out of my way to look at it. >> Since this went hand in hand with Ahmednejad's bellicose assertions that >> Iran has every right to pursue their nuclear program without outside >> intervention or oversight, > > ..which of course they do, though if they wish to pursue it free of oversight, > they should withdraw from the nuclear non-proliferation pact. Of course, doing > this is as good as admitting that they want to produce weapons. Not that they > have any less right to such weapons than anyone else. > > If Israel is so worried about Iran, then they could end their problems > overnight, simply by coming to an equitable agreement with the Palestinians. I'm afraid it may be too late for that. Relations between the Palestinians and the Israelis are so bad that an equitable agreement may be impossible; from what I've read, an entire generation of Palestinians on the Gaza Strip has grown up in an atmosphere of total fear of Israel. We're talking about people who've been suffering from stress-related problems from the time they were old enough to talk, all from fear of the demon Israel. It would be very difficult for them to come to an equitable and peaceful agreement with Israel, even if the Israeli government wanted to do so. Any such agreement requires some level of trust on both sides; the trust is missing, and instead there is intense, ingrained, well-learned hatred. That's going to be very hard to overcome. Things look very bleak over there to me. I would tend to blame Israeli government policies and actions for that state of affairs, though others may find different roots to the problems. My favorite quote regarding Gaza, from some former Israeli leader, many years ago, not so long after Israel first occupied it: "Why do they _want_ Gaza? It's insane -- it's like wanting to get cancer because it gives you more cells!" Wish I could recall the source. > For what it's worth, if it were up to me, I would excise (old?) Jerusalem from > both Israel and Palestine, and make it a small city state, similar to Vatican > City, but governed by a 7 member board, comprising 2 members from each of the > major religions, and 1 secularly elected member. Having an odd number ensures > that there is never a tied vote. With Jerusalem out of the way, it would be much > easier for both parties to reach an agreement on boarders. Yeah, right, I agree -- and while we're at it let's do the same with Hebron and Bethel. But I disagree about the board -- it should be populated entirely with atheists. Seven copies of Jed, running Jerusalem... Imagine... >> and with his rejection (or disregard) of >> Russia's offer to provide the pre-enriched fuel for their reactors in >> order to avoid the need for (weapons-convertible) enrichment facilities >> in Iran, it made a lot of people understandably nervous about what the >> future might hold if Iran's course is not changed. > > Only they get nervous who don't look deeply enough, or listen carefully enough. Personally I find the whole situation is making me very nervous and looking more deeply doesn't help me relax. Whatever Iran's plans really are I certainly hope the rumors of a preemptive (nuclear) first strike against them are unfounded. >> According to at least one apologist for Iran found on the Internet, the >> literal phrase used meant "This occupation regime over Jerusalem must >> vanish from the page of time.” That doesn't sound a whole lot better to >> me than the French version, frankly, and in this case, I'm inclined to >> trust the translators who most likely knew what the Persian idiom meant >> when they translated it to "rayer de la carte" -- which, by the way, >> means exactly what it sounds like it means. > > Still, it's just his opinion, not a statement of policy. > BTW note that my suggestion hereabove might satisfy his wish. > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 08:56:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MGtOGm010241; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:55:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MGr2nl004810; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:53:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:53:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=cN5t5wNovaIyYN0nBNakEB4MUVQKlCInwkV9pMoztHx/l7+ZKeHJIwm4C7xBIE5BUikN4h0GxbQuH01b5KGfMAeHD6GmwJfLxeQDZxX9dFVxnkMr69OiG+rh792IAqmJXNs7oonc1VwkgWy9ckK0DcSLIj4e7bmUwrofe8j4olw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=l0n+C5TPama66DciSTGA3gDL4mdrFNDFUdR8KdV8p5jxqdX8Un5hjG2lbFyfTNxaA9+ePb0qVzZK8B3GjnQmPAhlBaHpNXtBw9xBl59X8sDNQs4tsO/3GwOb/yHzAJbK2v0RFKdlTXjW5D33ol23r4r9fU2cNozXZSObF2spQI4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:52:59 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Momentum Status: O X-Status: A formula found on a web site says that, for a uniform flywheel, the energy stored is given by: E = mr^2w^2 / 4 So, for a mass of 1 kg with a radius of 0.25 m and a rotational rate of 120 RPM (4 pi rad/s) the energy stored is 2.47 J. Does this sound right? Does anyone know how to calculate the effect of the 1 kg mass on a vertically loaded tapered thrust bearing? How much load it adds? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 09:20:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MHK1GD021064; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:20:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MHF5DT018565; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:15:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:15:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Momentum Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:14:52 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That sounds way low to me -- only 2.47 watts for a second to spin up something that big -- just my impression, though. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:53 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Momentum A formula found on a web site says that, for a uniform flywheel, the energy stored is given by: E = mr^2w^2 / 4 So, for a mass of 1 kg with a radius of 0.25 m and a rotational rate of 120 RPM (4 pi rad/s) the energy stored is 2.47 J. Does this sound right? Does anyone know how to calculate the effect of the 1 kg mass on a vertically loaded tapered thrust bearing? How much load it adds? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 10:52:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MIqJoo016667; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:52:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MIqCSt016602; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:52:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:52:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Q43hbINPzKktshyE0QybVBE22wLYiNMKDOdC/UUxjRY2tb9xv9r8Y5w62R5M/thY9tTwZ/fJ6Ua2RoDquQTFYsU2EQW2/zp4f3hhFwNJ2AJl/vlkZR24djqxmkdK5vpJW87HqtO/7S39vuo5xWncp/sWJDS4RUPBHicoNb+lkjo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rdR09T5rlJZW5lU5kYskP7Q0/XV/a0MN0RqW683UnRT1CB1/cgfnqtWOaeHlVxSjgk4knrAnbzQQeeMWFuLAi2tIX6ZjviIdMfpn9209LugC7uNIczghmSYqEPP/tFQ7a/AK1sgktCUNAJG78RIBboQu0umDq1ZFpeVYx8FDsFo= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:52:11 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Momentum In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah, same here; but, I just got one of our ME's to confirm it. AAMOF, he missed it on the first try since he had all the mass at the rim like a bicycle wheel (k=1). :-) Terry On 2/22/07, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > That sounds way low to me -- only 2.47 watts for a second to spin up > something that big -- just my impression, though. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 11:15:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MJFWa7013154; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:15:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MJFUvD013127; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:15:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:15:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:11:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:57:25 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >>> The wire creates a positive cloud. The tube attached to the negative >>> terminal >>> is >>> negative, and hence attracts the positive air cloud. This pulls the tube up, >>> and >>> the cloud down. When the positive cloud comes in contact with the tube, it >>> is >>> neutralized, but the power source soon creates more positive ions around the >>> wire, and concurrently pumps more electrons into the tube. >> >> Wouldn't this make the tube noticeably oscillate up and down? > > No, because there is a continuous stream of air and current. Michel Jullian wrote: > > The tube doesn't oscillate because the process Robin described is continuous. For this to be plausible the tube could never be neutral. In fact, if the tube's charge were to fall below some minimum value the tube's weight will cause it to drop. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 14:18:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MMIpj9026056; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:18:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MMInIj026040; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:18:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=ZAOWtm0RpMZN6wZTFP6LlRd1FoC5uV3XNS6IWOSpAqavXKBZbakpFHCO8837mfbmQ6BtkUSG0vkP57VEjjmdiK9mRk7YU19cJNm5LVquN1dzqrGZpw+A+/2JnCZ1w/Q76Aeve4r/LRe900BVYbL4qxTrBhlxTJay/TIr8mRXlHg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=lO1a235ZK8dKbeMWijaB9bayBfawPSI/b7eeYCUoBVRroy9YTAOUFbS6VNzhTXc6ZV1ri14+atzxh+bziwcswsZ8raBph06fmOIlJIGdUihLtLtpzcv4+/vUt3D75g4ATzSkhoiQXfQxRUC9qzrN+0cLr42Zwdwxt4H5amighoU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:18:48 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Microchipped Status: O X-Status: http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=939 "RFID 'Powder' - World's Smallest RFID Tag The world's smallest and thinnest RFID tags were introduced yesterday by Hitachi. Tiny miracles of miniaturization, these RFID chips (Radio Frequency IDentification chips) measure just 0.05 x 0.05 millimeters. " From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 15:25:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1MNP7g7022235; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:25:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1MNP51E022186; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:25:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:25:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <253301c756d8$af13e5f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:25:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1MNP3w4022169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters ... >> ...Sigmond's derivation for the lifter thrust (or rather it's opposite namely the force >> exerted by the ions on the air ... > However, what about the force of reaction by the air on the ions? That's the thrust, and as I said, it's exactly the opposite vectorially to the force exerted by the ions on the air calculated by Sigmond (they are equal in magnitude: action=reaction). You see the recirculated charges are internal parts of the lifter, just like the paddles are internal parts of the paddle wheel boat, so any external force on them is a force on the lifter. To clear up a possible confusion, the forces we discussed wrt the tubular lifter between the electrodes and the flying charges are all internal forces, like one could discuss the internal actions between the paddles and the ship, or the propeller and the helicopter. They are interesting as a way to visualize what pushes the _electrodes_ up, but they cancel when you add them all up (e.g. force of charges on cathode + force of cathode on charges = 0), what really applies a net force to the lifter is the reaction of the medium. > Unless this force exceeds the force exerted by the ions on the air > the lifter will not rise. If it is less than this, the lifter is > just an air pump. Not at all, they are equal in magnitude in all circumstances :) The lifter will simply rise if the force exceeds its weight, in which case its acceleration is (force - weight)/mass, as long as the aerodynamic drag remains negligible as is the case in all practical lifters. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 18:01:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1N21VG0008143; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:01:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1N21TbR008121; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:01:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:01:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c756ee$86610960$dd027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <20070222151107.GD8226@linux> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:01:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: CHEMTRAILS DOCUMENTARY on Discovery Channel Tonight Feb.22 9:00 PM Status: O X-Status: Howdy Mark, Interesting your post today coincided with a series of contrails across south central Texas today stretching from Houston to San Antonio. There were impressive in they appeared as a giant tick tack toe checkerboard crisscrossing. the sky as far as could be seen. Wow!. Our esteemed Senator for Texas, Mz Kay Bailey Hutchinson was the prime mover for funding legislation for weather modification studies including cloud seeding. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 18:05:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1N252WG010563; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:05:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1N251IN010544; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:05:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:04:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:04:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1N24wcC010500 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:11:03 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> The tube doesn't oscillate because the process Robin described is continuous. > >For this to be plausible the tube could never be neutral. In fact, if the >tube's charge were to fall below some minimum value the tube's weight will >cause it to drop. > >Harry As long as power is supplied, it isn't neutral. Since the mass of the tube(s) is by definition less than that of the whole lifter, as power is applied, the tube will lift first, then with application of additional power, the whole lifter will rise. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 00:58:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1N8vsXi012046; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:57:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1N8vrOC012035; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:57:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:57:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <258001c75728$b4243a90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:57:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1N8vpfI012016 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters > "Ion" is a Greek word isn't it? Ion means "something that goes" in Greek. Scientific term introduced by Faraday in his Experimental Researches in Electricity, seventh series (1834): http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14986 " 665. Finally, I require a term to express those bodies which can pass to the electrodes, or, as they are usually called, the poles. Substances are frequently spoken of as being electro-negative, or electro-positive, according as they go under the supposed influence of a direct attraction to the positive or negative pole. But these terms are much too significant for the use to which I should have to put them; for though the meanings are perhaps right, they are only hypothetical, and may be wrong; and then, through a very imperceptible, but still very dangerous, because continual, influence, they do great injury to science, by contracting and limiting the habitual views of those engaged in pursuing it. I propose to distinguish such bodies by calling those anions158 which go to the anode of the decomposing body; and those passing to the cathode, cations159; and when I have occasion to speak of these together, I shall call them ions. " -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 01:03:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1N9353e014164; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:03:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1N934ut014146; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:03:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:03:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <258601c75729$6d097340$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:03:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1N932Yg014124 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 5:46 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > Ok, now I understand the essentials of this explanation. Good. > However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the > elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that the > _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 01:27:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1N9RAgo014243; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:27:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1N9R7Ac014206; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:27:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:27:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DEB34F.6060702@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:26:39 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: brain operation Status: O X-Status: The author of this website was interviewed on C to C AM. He says that the human brain is full of magnetite crystals. These crystals are affected by seismic activity and might produce various exstactic states, one of which is the religious experience. the page which this link opens talks about men's willingness to die for religious causes. I was quite impressed with his theory that the interactions of the magnetite crystals produces solitons which are instrumental in consciousness. His denial of a creator god is rather novel, just because the individual components of a TV set are designed, doesn't mean that the entire assembleage is. If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, you can baffle them with bullsh-t. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/terrorism.htm --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 04:12:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NCCPYQ014659; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:12:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NCCOEw014649; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:12:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:12:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2bb001c75743$dc7a33d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <212101c75597$0f216d20$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:12:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1NCCI0B014531 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Iron fertilization / whales synergy Status: O X-Status: Of course, only one or a few whales per herd would have to be equipped. Alternatively, one or a few sphepherd ("whalherd"?) iron dispensing ships leading large whale herds could be used. They could be unmanned for cost reduction, or on the contrary exploited for whale watching tourism in order to offset the costs. I may be wrong but it seems to me that the whale synergy could suppress most of the objections to iron fertilization listed in the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization (a model of contradictory objectivity BTW, with pro and anti arguments in orderly succession) Critics/comments/ideas? Come on Vos we've got a planet to save, let's give a chance to all proposals! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: [Vo]: Iron dispensing whales scheme > Mmm, maybe we shouldn't throw out the whales with the bath water ;-) > > It seems to me the iron dispensing whales scheme may have its own merits, whether or not the blubber is harvested, and whether or not it can be used to control remotely the whales itinerary. > > I believe it constitutes, in itself, an improvement over previously considered iron fertilization schemes for the following reasons: > > 1/ Lower cost (costs less than ships or planes) > > 2/ Probably more net CO2 removed per unit mass of iron, the CO2 being immediately converted to less volatile forms of carbon than the algae themselves: total whale biomass increase and fesces dropping to the ocean bottom > > 3/ The planet keeps the color we are used to, the blooms being immediately harvested > > 4/ It's whale-friendly > > Does this make sense? > > -- > Michel > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:53 PM > Subject: [Vo]: RC'd CO2 harvesting whale herds (was: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize) > > >> Steven Krivit wrote: >>> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson. >>> >>> http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html >> >> So it seems iron fertilization does enhance algae growth after all, by creating more or less instantaneous blooms, and the (old) idea is not George's but Martin's like Jones said. I had no idea there was a lack of iron in the oceans, this probably means this element is the limiting factor for ocean surface algae photosynthesis. What is not clear at all if if this scheme is a net atmospheric carbon absorber in the long term, let's assume it isn't (algae re-emit GHGs when they die, so do the fish that eat them), so we still need to harvest and sequester. >> >> Ok let's pursue the whale herd idea of my earlier post for harvesting and sequestering, and let's throw in the iron fertilization factor since it works: >> >> 1/ Let's equip the whales with iron dispensers spurting iron solution around when there is sunlight for photosynthesis to occur. This way the algae will grow where and when they can be harvested :) And the whale herd will grow too. >> >> 2/ Instead of going whale hunting like in the good old days, couldn't we take advantage of the beasties' gluttony to remote control them to their oceanic pastures and back? All that would be needed would be an embarked GPS, a radio for two way communication with the "whale boys" in their control rooms on land, and ways to direct the iron solution spurts to where we want the whales to follow the blooms :) >> >> How does this "whale oil" scheme sound now ? >> >> Michel >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:01:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NE0u4B022207; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:00:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NE0rie022195; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:00:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:00:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Cy/wY7k2DHlqDZxOdzBVJVemJevPKXbkywWUR3QDGTc9SWQ+rH4m3hTh0EJBJUUeUjzXGMDOmN3WeIdORuC99sZsvFpxfG7H6ftVWNs5tEIYXfFaPqhVvBj1KNIgDo7m457tumIgQB5lkGtde01r7C5ctNIhTqLZQmNd+yyBouw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KwNim/SluRMkYeWQ3Ep3wHurtAFu7UuVoq+nP/8uZxmfnKyr7mgow5P2ZXwWeXkyFIpbw3MTHplulTfeDULTpEdxjknes2nirYNkE2g21C/uGfaOvZl/CP5gv3E8beWvilXzRaLSPMpAS44lw8B7z6wNq1UkqEdPA9Sa6vek7k8= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 03:00:50 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. In-Reply-To: <45DEA1BD.2010801@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_46242_7660489.1172239250676" References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294DFA7@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <45DEA1BD.2010801@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_46242_7660489.1172239250676 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The thought that it is futile is what makes it so. On 2/23/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > Zell, Chris wrote: > > > What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are > > correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? > > > In the first hour of C to C AM last night Alex Jones of infowars and > prisonplanet.com was interviewed. I didn't notice any of the conspiracy > thread mentioning the bombing of the Murrah building, but it's another > fertile ground for conspiracy theorists. You're right Chris, if what > people like Alex say is true you might as well kiss your liberties > goodbye. I think that G-d confounds their plans, for the time being. > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_46242_7660489.1172239250676 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The thought that it is futile is what makes it so.

On 2/23/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Zell, Chris wrote:

>   What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are
> correct,  it's all futile and irrelevant.  How so?
>
In the first hour of C to C AM last night Alex Jones of infowars and
prisonplanet.com was interviewed. I didn't notice any of the conspiracy
thread mentioning the bombing of the Murrah building, but it's another
fertile ground for conspiracy theorists. You're right Chris, if what
people like Alex say is true you might as well kiss your liberties
goodbye. I think that G-d confounds their plans, for the time being.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_46242_7660489.1172239250676-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:13:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NED0t8016978; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:13:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NECw5d016961; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:12:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:12:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:09:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) In-reply-to: <256e01c75724$d9f21a70$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) > >>>> For this to be plausible the tube could never be neutral. In fact, if the >>>> tube's charge were to fall below some minimum value the tube's weight will >>>> cause it to drop. >>>> >>>> Harry >>> >>> As long as power is supplied, it isn't neutral. Since the mass of the >>> tube(s) >>> is >>> by definition less than that of the whole lifter, as power is applied, the >>> tube >>> will lift first, then with application of additional power, the whole lifter >>> will rise. >> >> Yes, but how can you be certain (other than by a the "laws of physics" >> argument) that the tube is not contributing a novel lifting force when the >> power exceeds a certain value. > > We could quote Laplace: "Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." > > Michel > Who is We? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:15:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NEF7je018602; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:15:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NEF5TB018576; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:15:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:15:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:11:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <257a01c75726$cde85e40$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1NEF4U8018554 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The motion of the ions does not generate a magnetic field? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > No, because any net Lorentz force (due to the geomagnetic field?) would be not > only very small, but at 90° from the thrust direction. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> The lifter >>>> will simply rise if the force exceeds its weight, in which case its >>>> acceleration is (force - weight)/mass, as long as the aerodynamic drag >>>> remains >>>> negligible as is the case in all practical lifters. >>>> >> >> >> Would the lifter also have to overcome a lorenz force? >> >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:25:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NEOrfh005977; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:24:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NEOoxn005892; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:24:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:20:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <45DEA2A9.50104@usfamily.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7IeVQD.A.lbB.xkv3FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>> On 2/20/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>> >>>> Could this provide a possible explanation for why Iran may actually be >>>> interested in a civilian nuclear power generation capability? >>> >>> >>> A 50 MW heavy water reactor?? >>> >>> Surely you jest. >> >> >> No jest, it was a serious question. I'm just too ignorant of the ins >> and outs of nuclear power to have realized it was apparently a dumb >> question, too. > > The BBC showed some footage of the nuclear facilities. What interested > me the most, is the line that was producing heavy water. A heavy water > reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, which is how the Canadians and > Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, I don't > think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. > we built the bomb? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:34:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NEYNo5016210; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:34:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NEYIW5016166; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:34:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:34:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070223093245.0368a028@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:34:15 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: References: <45DEA2A9.50104@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, which is how the Canadians and > > Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, I don't > > think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. > > > >we built the bomb? Sure. Why else do you think Bush has not invaded Canada? - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:50:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NEnt1B004642; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:49:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NEnsl8004621; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:49:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:49:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=crattt52tbMY4e1pMktVnJuYqqtkCJqJPMm0gl3YyRcD70sshnR1gm/HCNzeBVd/ApoUXtZqD+sfVL8ChgygeZdDpPHu5WMczCy9iwHFt76GYXGv/lwKk0KPrTzMk0nx2uTsIC+jn7m0hTt5wgxIZ/ryAJ+0VkJKBSAXSry4XI0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GS0A6hK3DENMGyMm0gcdKa06N92WZ296aUDQRTFzOB78PS43bZBiPxGjYk4ytNvhmbOUOEsLHOYX+8F0rmtS3tC+nKKaQrAgIwSz4BlPNcyd8aDAJIkmvWbI1hu4+T+KNj67HET7EvJ3jXTFGPa0jf+bR1YrGy+DHF6onPVpYPc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:49:53 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070223093245.0368a028@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45DEA2A9.50104@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070223093245.0368a028@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/23/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, which is how the Canadians and > > > Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, I don't > > > think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. > > > > > > >we built the bomb? > > Sure. Why else do you think Bush has not invaded Canada? Heck yeah. Otherwise, we would be on Alberta like a chicken on a june bug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_sands Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 06:56:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NEuTQa001864; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:56:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NEuRmD001839; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:56:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:56:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:52:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070223093245.0368a028@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, which is how the Canadians and >>> Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, I don't >>> think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. >>> >> >> we built the bomb? > > Sure. Why else do you think Bush has not invaded Canada? > > - Jed > He doesn't like our weather. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:10:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NFA3vA015324; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:10:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NF0EPs009789; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:00:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:00:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7575B.5184DB1E" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:59:23 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20299C33C@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hydrogen Outta Nowhere? Thread-Index: AcdXWzSbLn9/touFSxKwk9NR2Lg0UQ== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2007 15:00:13.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[51D9FEF0:01C7575B] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hydrogen Outta Nowhere? Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7575B.5184DB1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I realize that completely eliminating all contamination is difficult but if protons can be popped out of the vacuum by an arc discharge, then I think we need to take another look at the Steady State theory of the universe. This could be one of those little experiments with big implications. =20 http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/a_history_of_dark_matter.html ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7575B.5184DB1E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I = realize that=20 completely eliminating all contamination is difficult but if protons can = be=20 popped out of the vacuum by an arc discharge, then I think we=20 need
to = take another look=20 at the Steady State theory of the universe.  This could be one = of=20 those little experiments with big implications.
 
http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/a_history_of_dark_matter.html
------_=_NextPart_001_01C7575B.5184DB1E-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:25:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NFOrcP005077; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:24:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NFOopI005026; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:24:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:20:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters In-reply-to: <258001c75728$b4243a90$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <8AntcC.A.XOB.Bdw3FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:35 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Army paper on lifters > > >> "Ion" is a Greek word isn't it? > > Ion means "something that goes" in Greek. Scientific term introduced by > Faraday in his Experimental Researches in Electricity, seventh series (1834): > > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14986 > " > 665. Finally, I require a term to express those bodies which can pass to the > electrodes, or, as they are usually called, the poles. Substances are > frequently spoken of as being electro-negative, or electro-positive, according > as they go under the supposed influence of a direct attraction to the positive > or negative pole. But these terms are much too significant for the use to > which I should have to put them; for though the meanings are perhaps right, > they are only hypothetical, and may be wrong; and then, through a very > imperceptible, but still very dangerous, because continual, influence, they do > great injury to science, by contracting and limiting the habitual views of > those engaged in pursuing it. I propose to distinguish such bodies by calling > those anions158 which go to the anode of the decomposing body; and those > passing to the cathode, cations159; and when I have occasion to speak of these > together, I shall call them ions. > " > -- > Michel > Faraday demonstrates his own preference for the atomic hypothesis when he uses the term "those bodies". Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:29:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NFSnoE008215; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:28:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NFSmN5008184; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:28:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:28:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DF082A.8000300@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:28:42 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> >>>> reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, which is how the Canadians and >>>> Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, I don't >>>> think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. >>>> >>> we built the bomb? >> Sure. Why else do you think Bush has not invaded Canada? >> >> - Jed >> > > He doesn't like our weather. Nah, that's not it. He's just not _allowed_ to. Bush has a DWI on his record, and can't become a Canadian resident as a result. Not now, not ever. We won't have him. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:42:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NFgqvY002267; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:42:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NFgpmM002249; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:42:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:42:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VafChtLxs662FA3uEIZajR3Ivh/5F9qUXyD4kw7SKsWTv9kd0RRJTkDxjSjUkHfIpVvZYjBB8ScJy7enbM05r0Ch4ggwaxVAkmFN3FVdzeeTDsaP7u9ogMvR+Zlndl5lcgcCAo9WS83oWt5Xt1un99ZEOgdoQoRu/uovvChjzEw= ; X-YMail-OSG: oZ_v_EIVM1lixMgnfF3tRk8go7KXvnJyRQsTmyK0lgBz7DQwYoD.j.3wpCOYGXObMR9h9_TQj1v57F8QUUhbvwIUo8617QV0dmc8h6ti143bkuPVuyQprc.qofm8WQDs.rI9Uul5KUFFRuw- Message-ID: <45DF0B77.7010801@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:42:47 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran Status: O X-Status: Harry >> The BBC showed some footage of the nuclear facilities. What interested >> me the most, is the line that was producing heavy water. A heavy water >> reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, You are making an incorrect jump in logic here which leads to the direct *opposite* conclusion. All uranium fueled reactors -ALL- as in 100%, are plutonium generators, and the heavy water makes zero difference in that regard. Heavy water is actually indicative of a civilian program, unless or even if there is concurrent thorium breeding. You can trust the BBC on most things, more so than the US Networks - unless the story involves so-called "state secrets" as this does. The Beeeb are masters of disinformation in that regard. That is partly because we tend to trust them more on other details. Do you think the Blair regime is disinterested in public opinion here? The reason that heavy water is used elsewhere is that - in intelligent civilian programs it makes for the most efficient reactor, and cheapest power output by far, even accounting for the high cost of D2O... IOW you get from 10-20 times more kWhr per pound of mined Uranium (assuming a 5% burn before refueling in either case). Enrichment (and this is our dirty little secret) leaves so-called "depleted" U which still contains 40% to nearly half of the original fissile content. This is something the DoD has tried to hide for years. ... ergo - the advantage for civilian use is that D2O allows the burning of natural U reactor fuel, which cannot be done in the GE design - which must use enriched fuel (and wastes 200-400 pounds of mined U for every pound burned, instead of about 20 pounds wasted for the 5% burn in CANDU). Are you following me on that critical detail? - up to 400 pounds of wasted U for every pound actually burned in a GE reactor! Enriched fuel is extremely costly, wasteful of resources and inefficient to burn and toxic tailings are ennormous - not only at the power plant after refueling - but at the enrichment plant ... and it only makes sense when you have a weapons program to share the overhead - and even then, the US has shut down Hanford and most of Oak Ridge because we - {and the Iranians} can buy reactor fuel from many sources. With OSHA fully involved we might say that making it is impossible in the USA anymore so we buy it from our former enemies. The USA is the stupid party here, in that we decided against heavy water early on- "because of" the weapons program and the greed of the General Electric Company. They may be a bigger "enemy" to Joe-Public than Iran. The effect of this was to put cheap nuclear energy out of reach of most utilities (using standard accounting practices) and to enrich GE and Westinghouse by hundreds of billions, since they controlled everything early on. Gigantic tactical blunder for the average consumer. But great for the "Generals" ... including the ones in 5-sided buildings. As far as Iran goes, they could get Pu from any and all civilian reactors, and all you need to look for - as the smoking gun - is a reprocessing facility, but these can be hidden underground. Yes they could get it cheaper using D2O but that is an accounting issue only. ...in fact the best weapons fuel is NOT Plutonium anyway - but is 233U which is bred from thorium. For this you do benefit greatly by having D2O but there is no evidence that they are breeding thorium. BTW this is what the Indians have done - as they have lots of thorium and hopefully they will be able to develop this civilian energy program fully, instead of buring more coal and peat. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:46:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NFkN2G022294; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:46:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NFkMU4022268; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:46:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:46:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:42:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <258601c75729$6d097340$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 5:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> Ok, now I understand the essentials of this explanation. > > Good. > >> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that the >> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. > > The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. > > Michel > Is it really necessary to include the affectation 'merely'? It sounds like you are speaking on behalf of Laplace. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:49:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NFnIMl024327; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:49:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NFnEVr024277; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:49:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:49:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:45:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <45DF0B77.7010801@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Harry You should be addressing Thomas. Harry >>> The BBC showed some footage of the nuclear facilities. What interested >>> me the most, is the line that was producing heavy water. A heavy water >>> reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, > > You are making an incorrect jump in logic here which leads to the direct > *opposite* conclusion. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 08:12:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NGCHQ2010239; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:12:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NGCFWV010209; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:12:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:12:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070223110018.0368a028@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:12:06 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1NGCCVx010144 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Sergio Bacchi completes his translation of "Cold Fusion and the Future" Status: O X-Status: Sergio Bacchi has translated paper by Edmund Storms into Brazilian Portuguese. He worked for several months translating my book into Portuguese, and yesterday he finally finished. I uploaded the book in stages. It is now complete under a new file name: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJafusoafrio.pdf The old file has a notice directing the reader to the new one. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJumabrevede.pdf The index: Rothwell, J., A Fusão a Frio e o Futuro. 2006: LENR-CANR.org. The book “Cold Fusion and the Future” translated into Brazilian Portuguese by Sergio Bacchi. O livro "A Fusão a Frio e o Futuro" traduzido ao português brasileiro por Sergio Bacchi. Uma visão das aplicações possíveis da fusão a frio do hidrogênio pesado. Um livro com muita imaginação e humanidade. I finished translating the book into Japanese in December. It will be published in Japan by Kogakusha, soon, I hope. (http://www.kohgakusha.co.jp/). This company published two other books about cold fusion by Mizuno and one by Takahashi. I am waiting for them to make changes and corrections. When the book comes out I will upload a copy in Japanese to LENR-CANR.org -- with the publisher's permission. I think my original version is better than the one they are coming up with, so I will upload the original manuscript. Note that Mizuno's second book is uploaded to LENR-CANR.org with Kogakusha's permission. In Japanese only: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTjyouonkaku.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 09:00:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NH01CW029169; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:00:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NGsZ6u027236; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:54:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:54:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2c0b01c7576b$4bdefa90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:54:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1NGsXZ3027214 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of course it does, but nothing much, no more than a wire a few mm long carrying a few mA current. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > The motion of the ions does not generate a magnetic field? > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> No, because any net Lorentz force (due to the geomagnetic field?) would be not >> only very small, but at 90° from the thrust direction. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters >> >> >>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> The lifter >>>>> will simply rise if the force exceeds its weight, in which case its >>>>> acceleration is (force - weight)/mass, as long as the aerodynamic drag >>>>> remains >>>>> negligible as is the case in all practical lifters. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> Would the lifter also have to overcome a lorenz force? >>> >>> >>> Harry >>> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 11:00:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NJ0XIV002322; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:00:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NJ0TTi002280; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:00:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:00:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:56:13 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >>> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that the >>> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. >> >> The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. I think it means the weight of the elevated tube has essentially disappeared (although the tube's inertia remains unchanged). In other words, the lifter's ascending weight is less than its stationary weight. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 11:01:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NJ0woX022306; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:00:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NJ0qAH022261; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:00:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:00:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:56:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <2c0b01c7576b$4bdefa90$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1NJ0l3T022236 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Of course it does, but nothing much, no more than a wire a few mm long > carrying a few mA current. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> The motion of the ions does not generate a magnetic field? >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> No, because any net Lorentz force (due to the geomagnetic field?) would be >>> not >>> only very small, but at 90° from the thrust direction. >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Harry Veeder" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:57 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> The lifter >>>>>> will simply rise if the force exceeds its weight, in which case its >>>>>> acceleration is (force - weight)/mass, as long as the aerodynamic drag >>>>>> remains >>>>>> negligible as is the case in all practical lifters. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Would the lifter also have to overcome a lorenz force? >>>> >>>> >>>> Harry >>>> >>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 13:13:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NLDMT5021284; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:13:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NLDK4k021267; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:13:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:13:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DF58D5.2050303@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:12:53 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <19Mzj.A.LMF.vj13FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Frolov update Status: O X-Status: In an email exchange Kiril Chukanov wrote: Such people are: Perendev (do you know somebody to see an working MEG or somebody who use these ghost generators?), Akoil (Russia), etc. Those people are charlatans (black-maiilers) and they damage the reputation of the Free Energy branch of New Energy Sources. I told Kiril that Tom Bearden's MEG was a frequent subject of discussion on Vortex-L. Then I logged on to the Russian science fiction author Alexander Frolov's website, www.faraday.ru and there was the Akoil Generator, for sale. Does anybody know what a ghost generator is? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 13:38:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NLcjsv018094; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:38:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NLchoa018057; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:38:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:38:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XlWHb6Iz/syRdQjVc/fTcXvRZfNLteGgKz57XwUHYca0vSEhBvuOzIafANliMv2R; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Frolov update Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:38:35 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <45DF58D5.2050303@usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609fbffebf6fe4865cbe69324430fad72a2666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <6d1f2D.A.DaE.i713FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Only a guess (maybe) but how about; Some See It and Some Don't ? > -----Original Message----- > From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:13 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Frolov update > > > In an email exchange Kiril Chukanov wrote: > > Such people are: Perendev (do you know somebody to see an working MEG or > somebody who use these ghost generators?), Akoil (Russia), etc. Those > people are charlatans (black-maiilers) and they damage the reputation of > the Free Energy branch of New Energy Sources. > > I told Kiril that Tom Bearden's MEG was a frequent subject of discussion > on Vortex-L. Then I logged on to the Russian science fiction author > Alexander Frolov's website, www.faraday.ru and there was the Akoil > Generator, for sale. Does anybody know what a ghost generator is? > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 2:25 PM -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 2:25 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 14:37:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NMbJd7006223; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:37:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NMbFH1006166; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:37:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:37:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=hw/Qiu/rpl44mpRhg0Xvc/JoGTG+RY4C/26wPiqRmLtEvsUOYrddrc0D7oF5XnP7; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <29920532.1172270233175.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:37:12 -0500 (EST) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8034f2e8ef3a0aaf70720b1b61e67e287350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.48 Resent-Message-ID: <2lqOAD.A.BgB.ay23FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 23, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New Sent: Feb 23, 2007 4:30 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 23, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 23 Feb 07 Washington, DC 1. OF PANDERING AND PEOPLE: WHO WILL CAPTURE THE CREATIONISTS? Even as these words are being turned into electrons, Senator John McCain is in Seattle delivering the keynote luncheon speech to the Discovery Institute. Eighteen months ago, just as the Dover School Board trial involving "intelligent design" was about to start, McCain came out in favor of teaching "all points of view," http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN05/wn090205.html . We have no idea what he is saying now, but it doesn't really matter; McCain is a master at the art of changing positions between breakfast and lunch. Apparently, however, he has decided, for the moment, to challenge Sam Brownback for the support of creationists. 2. POWER OF PRAYER: AUTHOR OF COLUMBIA STUDY COMMITS PLAGIARISM. More than five years ago WN called attention to a paper in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine in which researchers at Columbia claimed prayers doubled the success of in-vitro fertilization http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN01/wn100501.html . If total strangers on their knees halfway around the world could suspend the laws of nature, it would be the end of science. WN suggested we pray the study is wrong. Behold! Our prayers were answered: The lead author took his name off the paper and resigned as chair of gynecology; another author landed in prison on an unrelated fraud conviction. The editor of JRM still refused to retract the article. This week, the remaining author, a businessman who owns fertility clinics in Los Angeles and Seoul, was charged by the editor of Fertility and Sterility with plagiarizing the work of a student in Korea on a different paper. The avenging angel was Bruce Flamm, M.D., UC Irvine, who has hounded the authors, Columbia, and JRM relentlessly since the paper was published. 3. "BLIND FAITH: THE UNHOLY ALLIANCE OF RELIGION AND MEDICINE" Ironically, even as the fraudulent prayer study was going on in the Columbia medical school, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia, Richard Sloan, wrote an important book condemning those who pander to a superstitious public by claiming to show that religion is good for your health (St. Martin's Press, 2006). 4. MOONSHINE: IT GETS A BOOST FROM DR. W IN A WHITE LAB COAT. Newspapers today carried pictures of President Bush visiting a Novozymes laboratory in North Carolina, which is developing enzymes to make cellulosic ethanol. Squinting at a flask, the President exclaimed, "So this is like a distillery!" He seemed to acknowledge that ethanol from corn can never fill the need. 5. PASCAL'S WAGER: UK HIRED PSYCHICS TO FIND OSAMA BIN LADEN. The Daily Mail has obtained a 2002 Ministry of Defense report. Because of the "high value" of finding Bin Laden, MoD resorted to the use of "novices" when "known psychics" refused. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 15:51:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NNpQMU019086; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:51:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NNpN27019076; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:51:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:51:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2c8d01c757a5$86500540$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:51:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1NNpMap019057 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ??? Look, this tubular lifter has nothing special, it just has a loose skirt moving under internal forces. Think of the paddle wheel having a loose axle. The axle will jump forward, trying to leave the boat behind, when you engage the clutch in "forward gear", and then will stay there as long as the boat pushes on its paddles. Very much the same, very prosaic. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >>>> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that the >>>> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. >>> >>> The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. > > > I think it means the weight of the elevated tube has essentially > disappeared (although the tube's inertia remains unchanged). > In other words, the lifter's ascending weight is less than > its stationary weight. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 15:58:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1NNvxKF006120; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:57:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1NNvsZ7006094; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:57:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:57:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2c9201c757a6$6e493e70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Frolov update Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:57:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1NNvpZu006070 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Or maybe it generates ghosts? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:38 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Frolov update > Only a guess (maybe) but how about; Some See It and Some Don't ? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] >> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:13 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: [Vo]: Frolov update >> >> >> In an email exchange Kiril Chukanov wrote: >> >> Such people are: Perendev (do you know somebody to see an working MEG or >> somebody who use these ghost generators?), Akoil (Russia), etc. Those >> people are charlatans (black-maiilers) and they damage the reputation of >> the Free Energy branch of New Energy Sources. >> >> I told Kiril that Tom Bearden's MEG was a frequent subject of discussion >> on Vortex-L. Then I logged on to the Russian science fiction author >> Alexander Frolov's website, www.faraday.ru and there was the Akoil >> Generator, for sale. Does anybody know what a ghost generator is? >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 > 2:25 PM > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/690 - Release Date: 2/16/2007 > 2:25 PM > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 16:15:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O0FHHK026970; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:15:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O0FFhq026944; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:15:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:15:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:11:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <2c8d01c757a5$86500540$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did you watch the video and listen to the commentary closely? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > ??? Look, this tubular lifter has nothing special, it just has a loose skirt > moving under internal forces. Think of the paddle wheel having a loose axle. > The axle will jump forward, trying to leave the boat behind, when you engage > the clutch in "forward gear", and then will stay there as long as the boat > pushes on its paddles. Very much the same, very prosaic. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>>> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >>>>> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that >>>>> the >>>>> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. >>>> >>>> The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. >> >> >> I think it means the weight of the elevated tube has essentially >> disappeared (although the tube's inertia remains unchanged). >> In other words, the lifter's ascending weight is less than >> its stationary weight. >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 20:35:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O4ZJ98012836; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:35:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O4ZHvU012809; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:35:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:35:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:31:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters In-reply-to: <2c8d01c757a5$86500540$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I understand your example and I can see how it applies to this lifter. Never mind me...I was just deluding myself. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > ??? Look, this tubular lifter has nothing special, it just has a loose skirt > moving under internal forces. Think of the paddle wheel having a loose axle. > The axle will jump forward, trying to leave the boat behind, when you engage > the clutch in "forward gear", and then will stay there as long as the boat > pushes on its paddles. Very much the same, very prosaic. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>>> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >>>>> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that >>>>> the >>>>> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. >>>> >>>> The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. >> >> >> I think it means the weight of the elevated tube has essentially >> disappeared (although the tube's inertia remains unchanged). >> In other words, the lifter's ascending weight is less than >> its stationary weight. >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:03:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O735Ft018599; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:03:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O733wU018581; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:03:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:03:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DFE318.3040705@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:02:48 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294DFA7@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <45DEA1BD.2010801@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73167 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > The thought that it is futile is what makes it so. > > On 2/23/07, *thomas malloy* > wrote: > > Zell, Chris wrote: > > > What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are > > correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? > > > That depends on how you look at it. I see this whole mess beginning in the third chapter of Genesis. We are in bondage to sin, and cannot free ourselves. Sabbath Day Peace. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:17:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O7Gnp4029744; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:16:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O7Gm7O029722; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:16:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:16:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DFE64E.9070300@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:16:30 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73168 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >thomas malloy wrote: > > > >>Canadians and Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, I don't think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. >> >>we built the bomb? >> >>Harry >> >> >> I think that Canada is a nuclear power, maybe not. They did however build the Candu reactor. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:30:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O7TvYU002201; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:29:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O7TuvX002187; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:29:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:29:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 02:26:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran In-reply-to: <45DFE64E.9070300@usfamily.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-Xs4ZC.A.Gi.0l-3FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73169 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >> >> >>> Canadians and Indians built their first bombs. Given the World's situation, >>> I don't think that anyone is going to stop the Iranian either. >>> >>> we built the bomb? >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> >>> > I think that Canada is a nuclear power, maybe not. They did however > build the Candu reactor. > As far as I know we are not. Yes we built the CANDU. I grew up along the Ottawa River, downstream from NPD, the first CANDU reactor, and up stream from two nuclear research reactors, NRU and NRX at Chalk River Laboratories. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:43:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O7hN4G012303; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:43:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O7hKxv012264; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:43:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:43:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45DFEC8C.2000205@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:43:08 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Oil field crises in Saudi Arabia and Iran References: <45DF0B77.7010801@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45DF0B77.7010801@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73170 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Harry > I Wrote: >>> The BBC showed some footage of the nuclear facilities. What >>> interested me the most, is the line that was producing heavy water. >>> A heavy water reactor is a plutonium 239 generator, >> > > You are making an incorrect jump in logic here which leads to the > direct *opposite* conclusion. > > All uranium fueled reactors -ALL- as in 100%, are plutonium > generators, and the heavy water makes zero difference in that regard. > Heavy water is actually indicative of a civilian program, unless or > even if there is concurrent thorium breeding. I read that a light water reactor produces Pu 240 which is not fissile, it that incorrect? > > You can trust the BBC on most things, more so than the US Networks - > unless the story involves so-called "state secrets" as this does. The > Beeeb are masters of disinformation in that Their liberal bias is a regular subject on talk radio, but they are an organ of the British government, which clearly has it's own agenda. > > The reason that heavy water is used elsewhere is that - in intelligent > civilian programs it makes for the most efficient reactor, and > cheapest power output by far, even accounting for the high cost of > D2O... IOW you get from 10-20 times more kWhr per pound of mined > Uranium (assuming a 5% burn before refueling in either case). Thank you for pointing that out. > > Enrichment (and this is our dirty little secret) leaves so-called > "depleted" U which still contains 40% to nearly half of the original > fissile content. This is something the DoD has tried to hide for years. IMHO, it isn't necessary to put DU into projectiles either. > > Are you following me on that critical detail? - up to 400 pounds of > wasted U for every pound actually burned in a GE reactor! > > The USA is the stupid party here, in that we decided against heavy > water early on- "because of" the weapons program and the greed of the > General Electric Company. They may be a I think that it's more greed than stupidity. > > As far as Iran goes, they could get Pu from any and all civilian > reactors, and all you need to look for - as the smoking gun - is a > reprocessing facility, but these can be hidden underground. Yes Or they could get assembled bombs from the Russians, it has been reported that this is the case. > > ...in fact the best weapons fuel is NOT Plutonium anyway - but is 233U > which is bred from thorium. For this you do benefit Another interesting fact I haven't heard before. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:49:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O7nCpE015123; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:49:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O7nAlP015111; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:49:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:49:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 02:45:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73171 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Lifter electrode geometries Status: O X-Status: Michel, Reading your attachment, I noticed the derived formula for the force on the ions appears to be specific to a particular anode and cathode geometry. i.e. It says "d = distance point-plane", which I take to mean the gap between a wire-like anode and the upper edge of skirt-like cathode. Since the geometry of the cathode is different in the tubular lifter wouldn't the derived formula be different too? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:55:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O7tXUL017618; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:55:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O7tW2u017602; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:55:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:55:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2cba01c757e9$2882dd90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:55:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1O7tU69017566 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73172 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, a long time ago. Why? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > Did you watch the video and listen to the commentary closely? > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> ??? Look, this tubular lifter has nothing special, it just has a loose skirt >> moving under internal forces. Think of the paddle wheel having a loose axle. >> The axle will jump forward, trying to leave the boat behind, when you engage >> the clutch in "forward gear", and then will stay there as long as the boat >> pushes on its paddles. Very much the same, very prosaic. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters >> >> >>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>>>> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >>>>>> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that >>>>>> the >>>>>> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. >>>>> >>>>> The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. >>> >>> >>> I think it means the weight of the elevated tube has essentially >>> disappeared (although the tube's inertia remains unchanged). >>> In other words, the lifter's ascending weight is less than >>> its stationary weight. >>> >>> Harry >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 23:57:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1O7v5rP017991; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:57:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1O7v2pd017977; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:57:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2cbe01c757e9$5e97ed80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:56:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1O7v0sx017959 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73173 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok no problem. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > I understand your example and I can see how it applies to this lifter. > Never mind me...I was just deluding myself. > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> ??? Look, this tubular lifter has nothing special, it just has a loose skirt >> moving under internal forces. Think of the paddle wheel having a loose axle. >> The axle will jump forward, trying to leave the boat behind, when you engage >> the clutch in "forward gear", and then will stay there as long as the boat >> pushes on its paddles. Very much the same, very prosaic. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:56 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters >> >> >>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>>> Harry Veeder wrote: >>>>>> However, concerning the tubular lifter, I would argue that the >>>>>> elevated tube when the lifter is _accelerating upwards is evidence that >>>>>> the >>>>>> _internal forces_ don't add up to zero. >>>>> >>>>> The elevated tube is merely a "deformation" due to internal forces. >>> >>> >>> I think it means the weight of the elevated tube has essentially >>> disappeared (although the tube's inertia remains unchanged). >>> In other words, the lifter's ascending weight is less than >>> its stationary weight. >>> >>> Harry >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 03:04:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1OB41E3021209; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 03:04:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1OB3wie021187; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 03:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 03:03:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2ce301c75803$7b6e7090$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:03:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1OB3urt021159 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73174 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries Status: O X-Status: The short answer is "in practice, not in this case". In Sigmond's derivation d is the z- (usually vertical) distance traveled by the single ion under study. Since the highest density of ions takes the shortest route, for most (but not all) lifter designs one can make the approximation of the same z-distance d (the gap length) for all ions, hence the I*d/mu thrust formula obtained by summing all the q*d/mu momentums contributed by all the ions crossing the gap in one second. In those lifters the exact shape of the collector doesn't matter, whether wing shaped or round tube or plane mesh. But there are exceptions, e.g. in my trough shaped mesh design as I explained the ions fan out, so they travel very different z-distances, so the X-to-plane I*d/mu formula doesn't apply. If you do the (simple) maths you find: Thrust(line to half cylinder) = 2/pi * I*d/mu Michel P.S. You seem quite interested in this matter Harry, are you planning a lifter construction project? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:45 AM Subject: [Vo]: Lifter electrode geometries > > Michel, > > Reading your attachment, I noticed the derived formula for the force on the > ions appears to be specific to a particular anode and cathode geometry. > > i.e. It says "d = distance point-plane", which I take to mean > the gap between a wire-like anode and the upper edge of skirt-like cathode. > > Since the geometry of the cathode is different in the tubular lifter > wouldn't the derived formula be different too? > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 13:16:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1OLGUGq023690; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:16:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1OLGRKI023584; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:16:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:16:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:12:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries In-reply-to: <2ce301c75803$7b6e7090$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73175 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > The short answer is "in practice, not in this case". > > In Sigmond's derivation d is the z- (usually vertical) distance traveled by > the single ion under study. Since the highest density of ions takes the > shortest route, for most (but not all) lifter designs one can make the > approximation of the same z-distance d (the gap length) for all ions, hence > the I*d/mu thrust formula obtained by summing all the q*d/mu momentums > contributed by all the ions crossing the gap in one second. In those lifters > the exact shape of the collector doesn't matter, whether wing shaped or round > tube or plane mesh. If the thrust can be increased by increasing the gap distance, how large can the gap be made? > But there are exceptions, e.g. in my trough shaped mesh design as I explained > the ions fan out, so they travel very different z-distances, so the X-to-plane > I*d/mu formula doesn't apply. If you do the (simple) maths you find: > > Thrust(line to half cylinder) = 2/pi * I*d/mu It doesn't depend on the width of the trough? > Michel > > P.S. You seem quite interested in this matter Harry, are you planning a lifter > construction project? No plans yet. Understanding lifters is my project. Harry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:45 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Lifter electrode geometries > > >> >> Michel, >> >> Reading your attachment, I noticed the derived formula for the force on the >> ions appears to be specific to a particular anode and cathode geometry. >> >> i.e. It says "d = distance point-plane", which I take to mean >> the gap between a wire-like anode and the upper edge of skirt-like cathode. >> >> Since the geometry of the cathode is different in the tubular lifter >> wouldn't the derived formula be different too? >> >> Harry >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:47:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1ONlg4h019623; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:47:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1ONlegm019608; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:47:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2d8e01c7586e$2ad69020$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:47:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1ONlcUA019590 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73176 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries >> In Sigmond's derivation d is the z- (usually vertical) distance traveled by >> the single ion under study. Since the highest density of ions takes the >> shortest route, for most (but not all) lifter designs one can make the >> approximation of the same z-distance d (the gap length) for all ions, hence >> the I*d/mu thrust formula obtained by summing all the q*d/mu momentums >> contributed by all the ions crossing the gap in one second. In those lifters >> the exact shape of the collector doesn't matter, whether wing shaped or round >> tube or plane mesh. > > If the thrust can be increased by increasing the gap distance, how large can > the gap be made? As large as you wish, but if you increase the gap you must also e.g. increase the voltage and the wire-to-wire spacing, the parameters are interdependent so you must calculate them in the right order (cf the multiwire-plane design guide). >> But there are exceptions, e.g. in my trough shaped mesh design as I explained >> the ions fan out, so they travel very different z-distances, so the X-to-plane >> I*d/mu formula doesn't apply. If you do the (simple) maths you find: >> >> Thrust(line to half cylinder) = 2/pi * I*d/mu > > It doesn't depend on the width of the trough? It does, via the d parameter (the trough width is 2*d, it's a half cylinder with the wire on its axis) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 21:24:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1P5OS0g006669; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:24:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1P5OPPc006637; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:24:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:24:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:20:00 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries In-reply-to: <2d8e01c7586e$2ad69020$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7UtcYD.A.pnB.J2R4FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73177 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries > >>> In Sigmond's derivation d is the z- (usually vertical) distance traveled by >>> the single ion under study. Since the highest density of ions takes the >>> shortest route, for most (but not all) lifter designs one can make the >>> approximation of the same z-distance d (the gap length) for all ions, hence >>> the I*d/mu thrust formula obtained by summing all the q*d/mu momentums >>> contributed by all the ions crossing the gap in one second. In those lifters >>> the exact shape of the collector doesn't matter, whether wing shaped or >>> round >>> tube or plane mesh. >> >> If the thrust can be increased by increasing the gap distance, how large can >> the gap be made? > > As large as you wish, but if you increase the gap you must also e.g. increase > the voltage and the wire-to-wire spacing, the parameters are interdependent so > you must calculate them in the right order (cf the multiwire-plane design > guide). Ok. >>> But there are exceptions, e.g. in my trough shaped mesh design as I >>> explained >>> the ions fan out, so they travel very different z-distances, so the >>> X-to-plane >>> I*d/mu formula doesn't apply. If you do the (simple) maths you find: >>> >>> Thrust(line to half cylinder) = 2/pi * I*d/mu >> >> It doesn't depend on the width of the trough? > > It does, via the d parameter (the trough width is 2*d, it's a half cylinder > with the wire on its axis) > OK. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 08:18:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PGIaZC023834; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:18:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PGIYPB023818; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:18:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:18:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FfO1SqvKvkg7HnW7kjhhyzG3Su74Xids4Jw9eQ/dvUkAvU9c/x6iIawL0rR0tCth0LDjB4B7yU12I4fYWNB0lnQPqBJS3Iahqa+zelowFbRByg/4fQZRhbxNDT0j/Ls+8UlvXJpz/jBX8MHe+jOgC4bO6W9bLSkN2NmHBNsBSLs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=N5A5SGsd5fmOBS7XTSX6HEO2adupGbRGK7LDQa4C2rZUgHxAoE46+YPMu4fBThWoAxcT0ARaHtDDSgByiXW+yeYiV/ntqvDQsU7EvSbLLEas0YtvymKj+F0BpZk7CGLuwBVxtBbfC89HMQQox3Z9AOzVnqpogeL1Yvj59N5uqig= Message-ID: <45E1B6C3.80606@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:18:11 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73178 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) Status: O X-Status: "A poll of 72 leading physicists conducted by the American researcher David Raub in 1995 and published in the French periodical Sciences et Avenir in January 1998 recorded that nearly 60% thought many worlds interpretation was 'true'." Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 08:37:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PGbf96030792; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:37:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PGbdY0030769; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:37:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:37:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aCyBRqjBnxv4vlzTD73y8SsRHn9soZz61ywt3tJqM9YBFQsoAgufoa2Pv6peSD3SZQvX437uN+23pCXqJdclYPO0qfyWoOgC3CD6TGAxMw10h09yoorHDCeRRgY0MfGLABcqigfowB6QD9dRQx1VNFk8+noxhhoZRAlR1USTjIY= ; X-YMail-OSG: 0nGgNrUVM1kL5fyoszQvgUEgRiCv3l15WVDTQxc.nW6Ih_OdlKDDvqbHcIovqciLcorYUxE6gQUA7fh2Rmp.8fPosLLPatk2TlFvxe5BKGlsSx7C5PM3hhooMgHQuBwVEoiKQqV9LdB5EA-- Message-ID: <45E1BB4F.2030608@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:37:35 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45E1B6C3.80606@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E1B6C3.80606@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73179 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > "A poll of 72 leading physicists conducted by the American researcher > David Raub in 1995 and published in the French periodical Sciences et > Avenir in January 1998 recorded that nearly 60% thought many worlds > interpretation was 'true'." Despite "true" being a loaded-word, if there ever was one there is really no other way to scientifically explain how the so-called "stochastic process" seems to deviate from true randomness - yet always to deviate "as if" it were goal-oriented. Now...how is that sentence sounding for being able to totally disguise the "true" limits of "ID" (and were are not talking Freud here)? Jones BTW the "stochastic process" for those who follow this kind of thing in the biological minutiae of life (and given the weekly timing)... and further assuming that you wish to discover the hint of spirituality which is present in Richard Dawkins writings, and which reconciles that seemingly godless outlook with the blatant spirititual overtones of Rupert Sheldrake .... well, it (the "stochastic process") is as close to putting a name on divinity as science allows, without resorting to "faith". And if that phrasing is not confusing enough, let me add simply that it is far from a clinical outlook and in fact is very comforting - to those who have gotten a handle of the concept of "timelessness".... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 10:35:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PIZ6bO021229; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:35:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PIZ1ML021194; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:35:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:35:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:33:32 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Frolov update AKOIL claims 400% eff In-reply-to: <2c9201c757a6$6e493e70$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200702251333.32935.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <2c9201c757a6$6e493e70$3800a8c0@zothan> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <-95aI.A.BLF.Ubd4FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73181 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looked at Alexandr Frolov's site. The magnetic free energy extractor appears for sale to be built in the 'Emirates, Bulgaria, and Slovakia....why not in Russia and give some St Petersburgensians a good job? His site claims 400 percent efficiency, and there is quite a list of available machines up to an output of a gigawatt for a cool 600 million Euro and a two year wait. AKOIL would be a dream come true if it is on the level. Really come into its own for space power generation...about ten of those big puppies on a intrasystem ship equipped with ion drive and a Bussard ramscoop to collect electrodynamic propellant from the interplanetary space which is not quite as empty as some suppose.....dream on dreamer. The site is in Russian but there is an English page..... http://www.faraday.ru/english.html Standing Bear Maybe the Russians will build one. After all, they built the Kliper, a design ready to go that they are willing to share with the world. The Kliper appears a darn sight safer than the shuttle. And it is part of a coherent existing and ongoing project for space exploration for the good of mankind. Take a look at Russian space sites like Proton and see their vision for an electric spacecraft capable for Mars exploration. They do not trust chemicals and neither should we. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 10:49:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PImmQf010408; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:48:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PImk7l010380; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:48:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:48:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=rznG88Xy4zQxaoVkvFAWTu9QLhPRrupi+9Y/N1cDI2Q/80Ji3GMYbdIbtx7njp/u9Oza6D2my4uZsAgrHP5RXDEEXjdkq884mHiKVrD0nhzwa7Wn/GeOIo9N4FXXg0L9lMH9e/ljz/lgz5fKcH6cI8AXUc5gd8cd37uGIBdpdlc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=qIzzhkalaDoKQFkzmUfKRyPoBrlCIi6n+8nDNDuDj/HW7EYLXByejbpDci/r3CmQbSS4rYuoQ9lEcenly7GcrTz/c46ka9QG0+9mLSdDQr7RvpU2Sxcu0r++Q3RZ8AZnG2Hu8u2fwx+saRaP4ob7igaQlEf+lQmuvnlEVS0cjVQ= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:48:41 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73182 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! While some things must remain on the QT, I was reading that TB (Bearden, not me) claims that his MEG gets cool when it's pumping power. Would any Vorts care to speculate how an OU device would take heat from the environment? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 10:53:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PIqxW5032533; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:53:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PIqwIh032507; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:52:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:52:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:51:26 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrogen Outta Nowhere? In-reply-to: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20299C33C@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200702251351.26913.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20299C33C@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73183 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 23 February 2007 09:59, Zell, Chris wrote: > I realize that completely eliminating all contamination is difficult but > if protons can be popped out of the vacuum by an arc discharge, then I > think we need > to take another look at the Steady State theory of the universe. This > could be one of those little experiments with big implications. > > http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/a_history_of_dark_matter.html later on in the forum there is this thread about 'perpetual motion machines'. The whole idea of 'free energy' to some folks is not believable inasmuch as the source of this 'extra energy' is not seen or understood. Same as the above 'mysteriousely appearing' proton from an arc discharge. If the proton indeed came out of the void (aether, whatever), so also could energy, as that proton mass would be so many electron volts. Suppose there is really some new physics here that would render the seemingly nonsensical to those of limited vision......sensable. It may be that our view of our universe is really incomplete after all, and that the conservation theory may really not be in danger. If the energy comes from 'somewhere else' , then that 'somewhere else' lost that energy to 'somewhere here' and conservation is again satisfied. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 11:12:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PJCWr9020592; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:12:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PJCVgM020571; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:12:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:12:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2e7801c75910$e413cc40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Lifter electrode geometries Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:12:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1PJCT6E020551 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73184 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: ... >>> If the thrust can be increased by increasing the gap distance, how large can >>> the gap be made? >> >> As large as you wish, but if you increase the gap you must also e.g. increase >> the voltage and the wire-to-wire spacing, the parameters are interdependent so >> you must calculate them in the right order (cf the multiwire-plane design >> guide). Here is a "minimal maths" optimum lifter design procedure I have just derived from the guide's equations: GUIDE: -------- Reference design: At 1 kV/mm (the max we can do without arcing) the power consumption is 2 W per "gram" of thrust, and the required area is 0.0025 m^2 per g. Scaling rules: The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g go as their inverse square. Wire: as thin as possible (0.1mm OK in most cases), wire-wire spacing = 1.3 times the gap length d (optimum value) EXAMPLE: --------------- We want to lift 50 g, and we choose a v/d of half the max value i.e. 0.5 kV/mm, namely v=25kV for a d=50mm gap, to save on power consumption (our color monitor is only 75W) 1/ Required power per g: 2 W * 0.5 = 1 W -> Consumed power for 50 g = 50 W 2/ Required area per g: 0.0025 m^2 / 0.5^2 = 0.01 m^2 -> Required area 0.50 m^2 3/ Wire-wire spacing: 1.3*50 mm = 65mm That's it. Questions/improvements/corrections welcome. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 11:33:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PJWvMU027720; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:32:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PJWpBj027614; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:32:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:32:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=F4R5ZtqaB/QQu7mfap7EkmO+zgjAl5p91cHXLepuJMbrYsF/KvjFpNHdUTIv3japcSXCZCDtvffNW04PCwVmqasL8CBsF5DtbKvYeFS1HuAOWcYWxKxLdBPWnPX1qnhSg8TDjaazU8I+VIxg8fasgOzHfIeWfABDWBouSG2AGcE= ; X-YMail-OSG: 0mdXmg0VM1nWLgcLDjXHmnKYUxFBm0k8pi2kYek2vtRPFuUjdsFDTSarvT_NWJiGo.5nvfFhs2233eefjvfhsl3gPPphmg4iLFq_KKjQvIVODvde3SG6tEDUipLe_1Yj_SAowN.x1jx4xok- Message-ID: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:32:45 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73185 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Blast-from-the past (9 years ago): and shall we dare to revisit everyone's (especially Jed's) favorite "pseud-o-U" Claimant: (Joe N, not Jean L N) http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/NMac0709.htm JLN sez: "The purpose of this test is to check for changes in the entropy of the (Newman) Machine" Side note: This was not Newman's machine per se, but an improved version built by Naudin/David ...and... the Motor ran for four minutes+ with NO (zero, nada, zilch) power input ! ...and everyone, including moi, thought, at the time, that it was a sham or error, due to Newman (Souffle's) over-reaching bad attitude (tin cup extended) and the other self-serving and inflammatory comments made on Vortex and elsewhere. ... did Naudin use good technique ? Hmmm... this part is not rocket science ... JLN: "I have used a dual probes digital thermometer (resolution 0.1 degree Celsius)" : - The first temperature probe has been used as reference for the lab temp (21.5 degrees Celsius) - The second temperature probe has been glued directly on the Newman's coil. I have waited one hour before starting the test for equalizing the temperatures ( LabTemp = 21.5 degrees, Coil Temp = 21.5 degrees) The test has been conducted during one hour. [graph shown] Again: This was for the Motor which ran for four minutes with NO (zero, nada, zilch) power input ! OK the cooling results shown are intriguing but not conclusive - as this is not a huge drop and only slightly over the resolution of the probes. However, there should have been substantial coil heating instead of cooling and there is no good reason to suspect thermoelectric (Peltier-Seebeck) cooling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect Therefore, I for one, want to go on record as saying that this motor was "probably" (arguably) running in a slight OU mode for most of those 4 minute, unless it was acting as an antenna for local power mains, ...or whatever (after all JNL's lab is on the premises of EDF) ...and also that if not an antenna, then the temperature drop, small as it was, was proof of negentropy - and very likely to have been related to ZPE extraction. How is that for equivocation? err... no snide remarks, my vocation is not equivocation Terry Blanton wrote: > Gnorts Vorts! > > While some things must remain on the QT, I was reading that TB > (Bearden, not me) claims that his MEG gets cool when it's pumping > power. Would any Vorts care to speculate how an OU device would take > heat from the environment? > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 12:19:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PKJR6I011221; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:19:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PKJPLK011201; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:19:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:15:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <253301c756d8$af13e5f0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73186 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ions and air Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters > > > ... >>> ...Sigmond's derivation for the lifter thrust (or rather it's opposite >>> namely the force >>> exerted by the ions on the air > ... >> However, what about the force of reaction by the air on the ions? > > That's the thrust, and as I said, it's exactly the opposite vectorially to the > force exerted by the ions on the air calculated by Sigmond (they are equal in > magnitude: action=reaction). You see the recirculated charges are internal > parts of the lifter, just like the paddles are internal parts of the paddle > wheel boat, so any external force on them is a force on the lifter. > > To clear up a possible confusion, the forces we discussed wrt the tubular > lifter between the electrodes and the flying charges are all internal forces, > like one could discuss the internal actions between the paddles and the ship, > or the propeller and the helicopter. They are interesting as a way to > visualize what pushes the _electrodes_ up, but they cancel when you add them > all up (e.g. force of charges on cathode + force of cathode on charges = 0), > what really applies a net force to the lifter is the reaction of the medium. > >> Unless this force exceeds the force exerted by the ions on the air >> the lifter will not rise. If it is less than this, the lifter is >> just an air pump. > > Not at all, they are equal in magnitude in all circumstances :) The lifter > will simply rise if the force exceeds its weight, in which case its > acceleration is (force - weight)/mass, as long as the aerodynamic drag remains > negligible as is the case in all practical lifters. > > Michel > !!!! I reread this and now I find something else perplexing. How do the ions manage to make their way to the lower electrode if the force between the ions and the air is equal and opposite? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 12:25:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PKPoKq014855; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:25:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PKPmHK014844; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:25:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qJiRQIiYc5/wdMRrMgYYrEO2/25S1l3QxIoMQo5rcjgelnYq0I8u5Jvib4qYXK+tEvy9ZT8XlXtvqfG/SypBu13sQZ1EJRCt1VL0nXi2SAs7XznfsDvZi24xCEto05DF7SV6Va7yXrZYhDhEvS64b3/te/D+izkcN/FjCMeWXW8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=poSheiVXjZjSShd9Pz1PTlTYMcHhmquK1XY0AB3N0B+N/GR5/rn3k3ytV9+dh+U1yz5YKiG1fq6uNnJ9dkuLvs7ZNKI4qjvwg4O51obx/rjUM2NVxRLu0Oxjlm9+186BTkhdw7HoTtQu3Z3l5uufX608V87x6+wYj2ZI77rk/2U= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:25:44 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics In-Reply-To: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73187 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/25/07, Jones Beene wrote: > ...or whatever (after all JNL's lab is on the premises of EDF) ...and > also that if not an antenna, then the temperature drop, small as it was, > was proof of negentropy - and very likely to have been related to ZPE > extraction. Yes, this is where I was heading. If one can extract from Dirac's sea of negative energy, you must provide the "heat of evaporation". Could the electron's magnet moment be just the sort of pump required? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 12:26:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PKQ7wi014999; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:26:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PKQ6Os014982; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:26:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CWmbfYuXzNI+rWXkdu4wp9PlAZe+qRm9zAYyoa+wSjLugBoSyGYwguu8cPtJdU4kK3nEvZt70xKuNnWr7b/uCRV7JenoVpXI0/gcV5Ck45v9T6ULdS1P8QwSqeX+49fVZUrHyDSzR+h4umRVIREwnlb3i72f7UwIx3Kps+zU1xs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GCGtrEX12gTLreB7NOt8rhKK4BCgKlb6s1VKS6ihyJkt90qrDTFRu7Iyg1SoC/znMDV0cFbxQovKkVlA41gG5cK/Pm0Qsk6zUOGY0FBzCT5OyWy0ZgrdWZwucJ8XaUECZGDEncvd4eXOfvx9XSyyyPOtYis/q1V7Dy3yU8t5qtQ= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:26:02 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <4czEP.A.-pD.dDf4FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73188 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/25/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/25/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > > ...or whatever (after all JNL's lab is on the premises of EDF) ...and > > also that if not an antenna, then the temperature drop, small as it was, > > was proof of negentropy - and very likely to have been related to ZPE > > extraction. > > Yes, this is where I was heading. If one can extract from Dirac's sea > of negative energy, you must provide the "heat of evaporation". Could > the electron's magnet moment be just the sort of pump required? > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 12:28:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PKRr6i016159; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:27:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PKRp8j016141; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:27:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:27:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JPdEpMm17RfzCL5Y18f9uQ0k96hgSuKYhdg3xwTUF9rwwAto5SW0NqzeQZUNWMZa4gGnQRI0NXqiaDwIWfAxUWs059iLoBYZEvHuI6nc5wsJHJozHqISCMZoDNfZaPlxP0FPaIWWNs/rapQweTYL88Sj19FZtF5a8L3WvLN0FAA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M9gtMAI4T2Oof6B8fWXQ1f5u0OysZiNLFA3AtLrHVtHQa4MS30IlMBn7P0WqQbjdzzfmxnj/PjbOsPiN3IPcI/U71sLRw7CKtR5ZXfuF9ltOrZRV362vQ187CsBU7Mlqpjxy0PC0xxVfld319q9BaTMe/ilq3EDyEzjXTq9al+U= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:27:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73189 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/25/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > Yes, this is where I was heading. If one can extract from Dirac's sea > > of negative energy, you must provide the "heat of evaporation". Could > > the electron's magnet moment be just the sort of pump required? My fingers are not completely connected to my brain today. I have just committed a Bushism as in today's Doonesbury. I should have said "magnet(ic) moment". Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 12:53:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PKrL2i000367; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:53:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PKrIvF000333; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:53:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:53:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2e9601c7591e$f80904a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:53:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1PKrE0t032735 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73190 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: ions and air Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 9:15 PM Subject: [Vo]: ions and air ... > !!!! I reread this and now I find something else perplexing. > How do the ions manage to make their way to the lower electrode > if the force between the ions and the air is equal and opposite? Newton's third law: law of reciprocal actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 13:07:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PL7NL6007469; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:07:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PL7Ltw007450; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:07:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:07:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2ea301c75920$ecf25b00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <2c9201c757a6$6e493e70$3800a8c0@zothan> <200702251333.32935.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Frolov update AKOIL claims 400% eff Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:07:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1PL7GGl007424 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73191 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Before sending along the 600 million Euros, I would Google up: Frolov fraud just in case. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Frolov update AKOIL claims 400% eff > Looked at Alexandr Frolov's site. The magnetic free energy extractor appears > for sale to be built in the 'Emirates, Bulgaria, and Slovakia....why not in > Russia and give some St Petersburgensians a good job? His site claims 400 > percent efficiency, and there is quite a list of available machines up to an > output of a gigawatt for a cool 600 million Euro and a two year wait. AKOIL > would be a dream come true if it is on the level. Really come into its own > for space power generation...about ten of those big puppies on a intrasystem > ship equipped with ion drive and a Bussard ramscoop to collect electrodynamic > propellant from the interplanetary space which is not quite as empty as some > suppose.....dream on dreamer. The site is in Russian but there is an English > page..... http://www.faraday.ru/english.html > > > Standing Bear > > Maybe the Russians will build one. After all, they built the Kliper, a design > ready to go that they are willing to share with the world. The Kliper > appears a darn sight safer than the shuttle. And it is part of a coherent > existing and ongoing project for space exploration for the good of mankind. > Take a look at Russian space sites like Proton and see their vision for an > electric spacecraft capable for Mars exploration. They do not trust chemicals > and neither should we. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 14:12:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PMCXDB022552; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:12:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PMCVZk022537; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:12:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:12:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:08:42 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: ions and air In-reply-to: <2e9601c7591e$f80904a0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73192 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 9:15 PM > Subject: [Vo]: ions and air > > > ... >> !!!! I reread this and now I find something else perplexing. >> How do the ions manage to make their way to the lower electrode >> if the force between the ions and the air is equal and opposite? > > Newton's third law: law of reciprocal actions > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion > > Michel > Ok I get it. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 14:17:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PMHjCl011179; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:17:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PMHhXv011167; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:17:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:13:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2SbJJD.A.XuC.Gsg4FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73193 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: lifter in a accelerating frame Status: O X-Status: Imagine a lifter is hanging from a thread without any power. Immediately after the thread is cut the power is turned on. Would you get a different value for the force on the ions if you did the calculation from the beginning in an accelerating frame of reference? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 15:27:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PNRARA011456; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:27:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PNR9EY011442; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:27:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:27:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:27:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1PNR501011403 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73194 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Status: O X-Status: Doing calculations in an accelerating frame makes me sick I am afraid ;-) But I guess it would be the same force, since it's not a ficticious one like e.g. the centrifugal force. My turn to give you some homework Harry, could you try the new multiwire-plane design guide I posted earlier today and let me know how usable it is? Say design the mother of all lifters, with the following specs: 100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm Power consumption, area, wire spacing? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: [Vo]: lifter in a accelerating frame > > > > Imagine a lifter is hanging from a thread without > any power. Immediately after the thread is cut the power > is turned on. > > Would you get a different value for the force on the ions > if you did the calculation from the beginning in an > accelerating frame of reference? > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 18:29:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1Q2TQgu011561; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:29:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1Q2TNHH011518; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:29:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:29:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:29:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:29:05 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1Q2T7BE011462 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73195 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:27:04 +0100: Hi Michel, [snip] >Doing calculations in an accelerating frame makes me sick I am afraid ;-) But I guess it would be the same force, since it's not a ficticious one like e.g. the centrifugal force. > >My turn to give you some homework Harry, could you try the new multiwire-plane design guide I posted earlier today and let me know how usable it is? Say design the mother of all lifters, with the following specs: > >100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm > >Power consumption, area, wire spacing? > >Michel [snip] Someone should try a flying saucer shaped lifter, with a circular wire ring on top as positive electrode, and disk shaped cathode underneath. The advantage of this is that you get extra lift from the Coander effect. The body should be a good insulator (styrafoam?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 09:17:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1PHH9RA014099; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:17:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1PHH7CW014069; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:17:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:17:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=PX5jqvC1eQLHRLURQG/b9hRmoS1y67ptzP8lVJwbKZFV25GIDSR3ah61odki6fvC6TTiGq5cFtxHiVniLOG3bHk+G0+qjVmr3c9s5BQBukOg4M8Ae9Dt64vWyrq82GkVE7ydpROr4wn2k2ciKp3vjWzzYbQD11MeNcVumsquR/I= ; X-YMail-OSG: TwTfNg4VM1ny2zPTASzeUpepDlshHERJwvXBF4eT8rPAx6rLKMvMqIrga4U6GMwggA-- Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070225121622.01a54170@rogers.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:17:04 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation) In-Reply-To: <45E1BB4F.2030608@pacbell.net> References: <45E1B6C3.80606@gmail.com> <45E1BB4F.2030608@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9jO2UB.A.xbD.TSc4FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73180 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: Or as Hui Neng said: "From the first, there is nothing." P. At 11:37 AM 2/25/2007, you wrote: >Paul wrote: > >>"A poll of 72 leading physicists conducted by the American >>researcher David Raub in 1995 and published in the French >>periodical Sciences et Avenir in January 1998 recorded that nearly >>60% thought many worlds interpretation was 'true'." > > >Despite "true" being a loaded-word, if there ever was one there >is really no other way to scientifically explain how the so-called >"stochastic process" seems to deviate from true randomness - yet >always to deviate "as if" it were goal-oriented. > >Now...how is that sentence sounding for being able to totally >disguise the "true" limits of "ID" (and were are not talking Freud here)? > >Jones > >BTW the "stochastic process" for those who follow this kind of thing >in the biological minutiae of life (and given the weekly timing)... >and further assuming that you wish to discover the hint of >spirituality which is present in Richard Dawkins writings, and which >reconciles that seemingly godless outlook with the blatant >spirititual overtones of Rupert Sheldrake .... well, it (the >"stochastic process") is as close to putting a name on divinity as >science allows, without resorting to "faith". > >And if that phrasing is not confusing enough, let me add simply that >it is far from a clinical outlook and in fact is very comforting - >to those who have gotten a handle of the concept of "timelessness".... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 00:55:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1Q8t1bO015035; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:55:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1Q8stTu014971; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:54:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:54:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:50:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73196 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > My turn to give you some homework Harry, could you try the new multiwire-plane > design guide I posted earlier today and let me know how usable it is? Say > design the mother of all lifters, with the following specs: > > 100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm > > Power consumption, area, wire spacing? > > Michel Is this correct? power consumption 9 kW area 3.1 m^2 wire spacing 1.3m Suggestions: Rephrase the scaling rules to read: "The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm." I would also explicitly show the mass in the calculation of the area in the example section. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 01:00:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1Q900l9024402; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:00:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1Q8tlZS023268; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:55:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:55:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2f1201c75983$e6719620$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:55:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1Q8timW023239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73197 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not sure what you mean Robin, drawing welcome, I suspect it resembles a NASA design where the wire was replaced by a sharp edge. I don't see how the thrust could exceed the rate of change of momentum transmitted from the ions to the air i*d/mu though, as this experimentally verified formula already assumes zero air resistance of the lifter structure. Also beware that charges deposited on insulators interact with the discharge! (BTW it's Coanda, not Coander) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:27:04 +0100: > Hi Michel, > [snip] >>Doing calculations in an accelerating frame makes me sick I am afraid ;-) But I guess it would be the same force, since it's not a ficticious one like e.g. the centrifugal force. >> >>My turn to give you some homework Harry, could you try the new multiwire-plane design guide I posted earlier today and let me know how usable it is? Say design the mother of all lifters, with the following specs: >> >>100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm >> >>Power consumption, area, wire spacing? >> >>Michel > [snip] > Someone should try a flying saucer shaped lifter, with a circular wire ring on > top as positive electrode, and disk shaped cathode underneath. The advantage of > this is that you get extra lift from the Coander effect. The body should be a > good insulator (styrafoam?). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 01:17:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1Q9HN50027669; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:17:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1Q9HLvn027651; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:17:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:17:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 04:13:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73198 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Doing calculations in an accelerating frame makes me sick I am afraid ;-) But > I guess it would be the same force, since it's not a ficticious one like e.g. > the centrifugal force. That will do. I didn't mean to make you sick. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 01:26:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1Q9QUs9003577; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:26:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1Q9QTAU003565; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:26:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:26:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2f2201c75988$3027fda0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:26:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1Q9QQeO003538 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73199 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in a accelerating frame) Status: O X-Status: Harry wrote: >> 100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm ... > Is this correct? > > power consumption 9 kW > area 3.1 m^2 > wire spacing 1.3m Only the wire spacing is correct, check your power and area calculations. > Suggestions: > Rephrase the scaling rules to read: > > "The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are > proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm." > > I would also explicitly show the mass in the calculation > of the area in the example section. Thanks for the improvements, revised version: ********************************************* MULTIWIRE-PLANE LIFTER/IONOCRAFT DESIGN GUIDE: -------- Reference design: At 1 kV/mm (the max we can do without arcing) the power consumption is 2 W per "gram" of thrust, and the required area is 0.0025 m^2 per g. Scaling rules: The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm. Wire: as thin as possible (0.1mm OK in most cases), wire-wire spacing = 1.3 times the gap length d (optimum value) EXAMPLE: --------------- We want to lift 50 g, and we choose a v/d of half the max value i.e. 0.5 kV/mm, namely v=25kV for a d=50mm gap, to save on power consumption (our color monitor is only 75W) 1/ Required power per g: 2 W * 0.5 = 1 W -> Power consumption for 50 g = 50 W 2/ Required area per g: 0.0025 m^2 / 0.5^2 = 0.01 m^2 -> Area for 50 g = 0.50 m^2 3/ Wire-wire spacing: 1.3*50 mm = 65mm ********************************************* -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 02:11:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QABZVA025816; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:11:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QABXr4025801; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:11:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:11:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:07:42 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in a accelerating frame) In-reply-to: <2f2201c75988$3027fda0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73200 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > Harry wrote: > >>> 100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm > ... >> Is this correct? >> >> power consumption 9 kW >> area 3.1 m^2 >> wire spacing 1.3m > > Only the wire spacing is correct, check your power and area calculations. power consumption 90 kW area 310 m^2 Harry >> Suggestions: >> Rephrase the scaling rules to read: >> >> "The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are >> proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm." >> >> I would also explicitly show the mass in the calculation >> of the area in the example section. > > Thanks for the improvements, revised version: > ********************************************* > MULTIWIRE-PLANE LIFTER/IONOCRAFT DESIGN GUIDE: > -------- > Reference design: At 1 kV/mm (the max we can do without arcing) the power > consumption is 2 W per "gram" of thrust, and the required area is 0.0025 m^2 > per g. > > Scaling rules: The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per > g are proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm. > > Wire: as thin as possible (0.1mm OK in most cases), wire-wire spacing = 1.3 > times the gap length d (optimum value) > > EXAMPLE: > --------------- > We want to lift 50 g, and we choose a v/d of half the max value i.e. 0.5 > kV/mm, namely v=25kV for a d=50mm gap, to save on power consumption (our color > monitor is only 75W) > > 1/ Required power per g: 2 W * 0.5 = 1 W -> Power consumption for 50 g = 50 W > 2/ Required area per g: 0.0025 m^2 / 0.5^2 = 0.01 m^2 -> Area for 50 g = 0.50 > m^2 > 3/ Wire-wire spacing: 1.3*50 mm = 65mm > > ********************************************* > -- > Michel > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 02:48:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QAmjW7002208; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:48:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QAmhC0002194; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:48:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:48:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2f3a01c75993$adaed810$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in a accelerating frame) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:48:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1QAmeHV002164 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73201 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Better: area OK, but power still wrong. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in a accelerating frame) > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> >> Harry wrote: >> >>>> 100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm >> ... >>> Is this correct? >>> >>> power consumption 9 kW >>> area 3.1 m^2 >>> wire spacing 1.3m >> >> Only the wire spacing is correct, check your power and area calculations. > > > power consumption 90 kW > area 310 m^2 > > Harry > >>> Suggestions: >>> Rephrase the scaling rules to read: >>> >>> "The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are >>> proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm." >>> >>> I would also explicitly show the mass in the calculation >>> of the area in the example section. >> >> Thanks for the improvements, revised version: >> ********************************************* >> MULTIWIRE-PLANE LIFTER/IONOCRAFT DESIGN GUIDE: >> -------- >> Reference design: At 1 kV/mm (the max we can do without arcing) the power >> consumption is 2 W per "gram" of thrust, and the required area is 0.0025 m^2 >> per g. >> >> Scaling rules: The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per >> g are proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm. >> >> Wire: as thin as possible (0.1mm OK in most cases), wire-wire spacing = 1.3 >> times the gap length d (optimum value) >> >> EXAMPLE: >> --------------- >> We want to lift 50 g, and we choose a v/d of half the max value i.e. 0.5 >> kV/mm, namely v=25kV for a d=50mm gap, to save on power consumption (our color >> monitor is only 75W) >> >> 1/ Required power per g: 2 W * 0.5 = 1 W -> Power consumption for 50 g = 50 W >> 2/ Required area per g: 0.0025 m^2 / 0.5^2 = 0.01 m^2 -> Area for 50 g = 0.50 >> m^2 >> 3/ Wire-wire spacing: 1.3*50 mm = 65mm >> >> ********************************************* >> -- >> Michel >> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 03:51:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QBpIMe018172; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:51:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QBnZNa017771; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2f5401c7599c$2dc872b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <2f3a01c75993$adaed810$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in a accelerating frame) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:49:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1QBnXbp017753 Resent-Message-ID: <7_o3x.A.kVE.Ols4FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73202 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Revised version below, I added a Google calculator for each parameter, the reference to the original Blazelabs work, and an exercise (if Harry feels like having a try). Corrections/improvements welcome. Share and enjoy. Michel ********************************************* MULTIWIRE-PLANE LIFTER/IONOCRAFT SIMPLER DESIGN GUIDE V1.1 by Michel Jullian mj@exbang.com First published on Vortex list 25-26 February 2007. Based on 'Optimum multiwire-to-plane EHD thruster design guide v2.0' http://blazelabs.com/Multiwire-plane.pdf RULES: ------ Reference design: At 1 kV/mm (the max we can do without arcing) the power consumption is 2 W per "gram" of thrust, and the required area is 0.0025 m^2 per g. Scaling rules: The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm. Wire: as thin as possible (0.1mm OK in most cases), wire-wire spacing = 1.3 times the gap length d (optimum value) EXAMPLE and calculators: ------------------------ We want to lift 50 g, and we choose a v/d of half the max value i.e. 0.5 kV/mm, namely v=25kV for a d=50mm gap, to save on power consumption (our color monitor is only 75W) The links are "Google calculators" (ignore initial Google results and replace the variable names by their values: double click name and type value) 1/ Required power per g: 2 W * 0.5 = 1 W -> Power consumption for 50 g = 50 W http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=2++*+kVPerMm+*+grams&btnG=Google+Search 2/ Required area per g: 0.0025 m^2 / 0.5^2 = 0.01 m^2 -> Area for 50 g = 0.50 m^2 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=0.0025++%2F++kVpermm%5E2+*+Grams&btnG=Search 3/ Wire-wire spacing: 1.3*50 mm = 65mm http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=1.3*GapLengthMm&btnG=Search EXERCISE: ---------- Re-design Xavier's 100g payload lifter (total mass 187g, v/d=0.5 kV/mm, d=92mm). Find power, area and wire spacing, verify results at http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp14.asp ********************************************* From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 06:11:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QEB9jC031561; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:11:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QEB8qs031549; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:11:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:11:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070226091056.0380b0b8@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070226091007.03608c38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:11:04 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73203 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: People lobbying for cold fusion in Washington Status: O X-Status: A fool's errand. See: http://pesn.com/2007/02/25/9500459_Kaplan_DC/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 06:30:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QEUU6u015108; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:30:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QEUSIN015089; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:30:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:30:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=M6LoEtRJaL7LM21rdYvV4wF7KSx8jGGcapoXmL7P3QtHmYgOzWtpaXRIjLOGtjZR717LldCvXguqvid9p4XhbhUG/BtD832Wpw/EyKDzZY6CVfhPCfbMpq9AcuaZYRAESIvKrm4uukR5f9Ui8dh1b6jqzgPighrpi8qU8UpaQxo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cpWHyra5KZ54v6nc3E9vkmZJygszzskv2Rh7pRNiNdlX+7NMx+lb47XsvqXK/h65t0LgRqBPcC5owXiyyMJTZrCm/l2ldRrdhWuQs/wj2TmjXCUn3N7YXWBZ4U8ueboss8iBlfxTFxc2yYGrWXp6PbM7wDWKOlHyCEl0zBFG65k= Message-ID: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:30:05 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73204 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Gnorts Vorts! > > While some things must remain on the QT, I was reading that TB > (Bearden, not me) claims that his MEG gets cool when it's pumping > power. Would any Vorts care to speculate how an OU device would take > heat from the environment? > > Terry Hi, The "how" has been my entire research over the past several years. Presently I'm writing a near atomic scale magnetic simulation program that will not only show people via animation how ambient temperature energy is moved from magnetic material to an appliance, but hopefully the simulation will reveal an efficient method using inexpensive common magnetic cores such as silicon iron. Can you please quote where Bearden claims the MEG gets cool or perhaps a link to the quote? Thanks, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 07:55:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QFtcNf025795; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:55:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QFtaRP025778; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:55:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:55:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BoeftmcoDbuRwnlLapOfxXObHdjeavPIyJKnA8BFdUyKyG0FXRYsb3T4LW0HDpOCgyxY0mVk/1GrzQ8dj2Kf4p9VQNKEtVh91xet32EPgVycJSE8lHPsHAB+S9CCMQIsj+8HByNCY7qtHqlzcThOLHLqEGN95F/GTXDA+caXfvM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kBoFyWpf/PEFOyVuPEtVTIGZpxboQfQiS7McW+LrtsshgVQppWTbdGVE29lY/DtRi84MHDNcMOkELKsTh5WpUhBBhPSAegMRsUbv7BBAef9davHEtN6ZfGeWpQo4wqCP63bJaJEPOXh/6zVTDVEiOO8JFH4WexAhGNNEqFyNTNk= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:55:28 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics In-Reply-To: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73205 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/26/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Can you please quote where Bearden claims the MEG gets cool or perhaps a link to > the quote? I think the exact statement was MEG created negative entropy in one of the O(3) electrodynamics papers. I'll look for the citation. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 08:30:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QGU3Fg025416; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:30:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QGLpQA020022; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:21:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:21:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:21:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1QGLnen019960 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73206 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, but couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy you must expend to separate them in the first place? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > Terry Blanton wrote: > > Gnorts Vorts! > > > > While some things must remain on the QT, I was reading that TB > > (Bearden, not me) claims that his MEG gets cool when it's pumping > > power. Would any Vorts care to speculate how an OU device would take > > heat from the environment? > > > > Terry > > > > Hi, > > The "how" has been my entire research over the past several years. Presently > I'm writing a near atomic scale magnetic simulation program that will not only > show people via animation how ambient temperature energy is moved from magnetic > material to an appliance, but hopefully the simulation will reveal an efficient > method using inexpensive common magnetic cores such as silicon iron. > > Can you please quote where Bearden claims the MEG gets cool or perhaps a link to > the quote? > > Thanks, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 10:10:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QIA9FK027149; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:10:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QIA70K027133; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:10:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:10:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=J8OFYpCdSr1xGjE0ughEWaBdTx0Jy+qKt+PVose7s73V+RvoSsUBLzAUFpnyyptbzIpF2hFpjaOqR/IPivfkaB1LccqQhk04CGDDwJb9LGMTA3s32xiHD1/b6o1jx+lcTT9L7BOM2lqJkAXWDGHLBOgnYtacuoe2DebiuJzkN6k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Br9KEuUU8rJ9+TYxNZFivYdwRLKFmgHmqXZDfhybN7lyARegDEpgN77/n53VWdDLtszdKqSkttD4faJBjpcWlUOLy16jLNt2lQDqMyZ5g32ir2eWZAAzPjdMDwZdf9FUUglDvZyasxP+qIjx6nHXD/WAMwe2aX+m85oV1STxVQg= Message-ID: <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:09:44 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73207 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, but couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy you must expend to separate them in the first place? Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate since there's always some energy loss such as radiation. Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and vibrating at room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to capture that ambient temperature energy. I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche consists of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic moments want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the magnetic moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic moments in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied field is removed. The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful energy output. The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey what I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on atom X. Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational force on atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is understanding the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has close to maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say 300K greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed by an energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent magnet within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day this is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. All that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, which I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has already delayed my research over two months. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 11:09:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QJ9a0V030074; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:09:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QJ9YxP029996; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:09:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:09:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:05:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in a accelerating frame) In-reply-to: <2f3a01c75993$adaed810$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73208 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: power consumption 45kW I thought turning up the voltage to achieve the specified kV/mm was what you meant by 'max value' in the example section. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Better: area OK, but power still wrong. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: New multiwire-plane lifter design guide (was Re: lifter in > a accelerating frame) > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> >>> Harry wrote: >>> >>>>> 100 kg thrust, 1 m gap, 0.9 kV/mm >>> ... >>>> Is this correct? >>>> >>>> power consumption 9 kW >>>> area 3.1 m^2 >>>> wire spacing 1.3m >>> >>> Only the wire spacing is correct, check your power and area calculations. >> >> >> power consumption 90 kW >> area 310 m^2 >> >> Harry >> >>>> Suggestions: >>>> Rephrase the scaling rules to read: >>>> >>>> "The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 per g are >>>> proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm." >>>> >>>> I would also explicitly show the mass in the calculation >>>> of the area in the example section. >>> >>> Thanks for the improvements, revised version: >>> ********************************************* >>> MULTIWIRE-PLANE LIFTER/IONOCRAFT DESIGN GUIDE: >>> -------- >>> Reference design: At 1 kV/mm (the max we can do without arcing) the power >>> consumption is 2 W per "gram" of thrust, and the required area is 0.0025 m^2 >>> per g. >>> >>> Scaling rules: The W per g are proportional to the kV/mm, whereas the m^2 >>> per >>> g are proportional to the inverse square of the kV/mm. >>> >>> Wire: as thin as possible (0.1mm OK in most cases), wire-wire spacing = 1.3 >>> times the gap length d (optimum value) >>> >>> EXAMPLE: >>> --------------- >>> We want to lift 50 g, and we choose a v/d of half the max value i.e. 0.5 >>> kV/mm, namely v=25kV for a d=50mm gap, to save on power consumption (our >>> color >>> monitor is only 75W) >>> >>> 1/ Required power per g: 2 W * 0.5 = 1 W -> Power consumption for 50 g = 50 >>> W >>> 2/ Required area per g: 0.0025 m^2 / 0.5^2 = 0.01 m^2 -> Area for 50 g = >>> 0.50 >>> m^2 >>> 3/ Wire-wire spacing: 1.3*50 mm = 65mm >>> >>> ********************************************* >>> -- >>> Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 11:31:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QJUwRC022839; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:30:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QJUtuq022791; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:30:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:30:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bXe0EGrQG4rWgoCD/8dXTRlFHs/cpjQVADjqVmiAbD3b7jEAG5r7VQa/fdHkprSCyFkyR7QDQegoyAIxp/O9a9Gcx+lbjVZgQaQ6t9s6KJ75qj9hN1s2/j4DxQlDRFS+yeMJDRMAfNv8Fy3iKyKj16WP1Tk0khsCkFd7Ik0D+Ew= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ROKG+P5IiOYOifYycHZa20UPNOxuv/hX1sorRA8Fwo48WeOqgCCDlLz5D5Ej0f5Vd5vVxE2u/CAg5MHnBAEC3DElW8eB2AeDxGTJeY6iULLjouW/Wk38Naaa6e+ZSS9uQsG/UZL/Ee9gu6NsNKs5Xam2WkYCp4p5hyfSC/ZAn6g= Message-ID: <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:30:30 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73209 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There's a specific experiment that the late E.V. Gray performed that is fascinating --> Quote, --- In the workshop, a 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires ran from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to Gray's discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, each weighing a pound and a quarter. The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different form of electrical current --- a powerful but "cold" form of the energy. As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the magnets would get extremely hot." Fritz Lens activated the battery. A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts. Gray threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. The top magnet flew off with a powerful force. Richard Hackenberger caught it with his bare hands. What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. The fact that Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of that. --- Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. I firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient temperature. Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic material were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How were the electromagnets situated? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 12:02:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QK1scV018282; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:01:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QK1n2A018232; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:01:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:01:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZETiH0yWdhV0vWkz9X68DyF+alWQnAa9yG61Ukrw2oRb0GXuVVn/sfDvrn6ZTuYW3dOZ5h+0CypOAbe+ep9DcPqOxGjqz2AvwfJVbTM9uwDUT4YwY89lU6vJeZdwY7GdyGM3L8PPNuvaRvWlHR1omTmgDTUho6PdJ+YuOKY5tNI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BQXTavE1QduzOPU36kbbxVJ+mTXkNaZtPQ/eIxyrqRtbkBL1S4UrVksp0vknTE2iAZjL4otFClqOZKkj/aanNFZxSfm520Q6O7UfVG1AzXYJo5t+V9itsTtWFG5LpQK9n7/kA7S4mXyejZhxvBfwEqBY4MndJU4lwAPjH+yeGSI= Message-ID: <45E33C98.1090004@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:01:28 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73210 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > OK the cooling results shown are intriguing but not conclusive We should note that JNL merely measured the temperature drop in the wires. Note that the wires are stationary, but the magnetic material is spinning. JNL did not directly measure any temperature changes in the magnetic material. Completely stagnate air is a good thermal insulator, but the slightest air currents makes air a bad thermal insulator. A spinning disc as in the case of JNL's Newman replication obviously would cause air circulation. If the energy is coming from the magnetic material, as I suspect, then the magnetic material would cool down, which would quickly transfer to the surrounding air, in which a small percentage would transfer to the surrounding wires. The air would receive most of the cooling effect. It would be more interesting if JNL could somehow measure temperature changes directly on the spinning magnetic material. He could use a thermal gun. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 12:38:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QKcbXX002519; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:38:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QKcZHx002498; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:38:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:38:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=qRJjPsFItV8pk9t2NiJ8yJ13DRCbS4QCs8ZZdN2a9IZrHBuqUpYPFqr/2IVsrLC0iu6m/isANn4qdfjsk96T767sF6qSNSnz9OfwXqdhUdogVwkQxZD2d2bzZiOmb44tSnDG2uTbsO8TB4fhA3Ay1JrbRTHtjCMKC+itPQ6/Aok= ; Message-ID: <45E34547.7040103@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:38:31 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45E1E45D.6020905@pacbell.net> <45E33C98.1090004@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E33C98.1090004@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73211 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > It would be more interesting if JNL could somehow measure temperature > changes directly on the spinning magnetic material. He could use a > thermal gun. That probably will not happen, but then we have Steorn.... This company is an enigma to me, as their approach is so... how shall I say it? 'brain-dead' is a bit crude (Steve Jobs' favorite repartee) but not inaccurate from everything which has appeared in print. ... but anyway... although I am more skeptical of Steorn than of the Newman machine, both may well demonstrate glimpses of OU at times, with repeatability being the salient issue. Nevertheless, it would be ridiculously easy for Steorn (assuming that they even have a well-equipped laboratory, which is not a given) to take and datalog these measurements, and then to report the results without giving up a scintilla of proprietary information. Then the question would remain (assuming a temperature drop)... can you trust anyone who chooses this kind of strategy to introduce an earth-shaking transformative technology - which supposedly is already patented, and which is instantly marketable by any number of large and cash-loaded corporate partners, if it did not come with heavy 'baggage'? ...unless, of course Steorn suspects that they a sooo-close to success, yet that the technology is not quite(?)= repeatable? reliable? robust? or whatever... and are praying to St. Patrick for some kind of Irish-luck miracle of insight, to be derived from the assorted experts who have been enticed by the hype, and who are, in effect, giving them free consulting services which they could never otherwise afford. That gambit is the only scenario which makes any sense to me. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 13:17:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QLHBxx003029; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:17:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QLH53A002995; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:17:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:17:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=rA4bmsitlRwbRk3E6ioM4HKasUQzhbSQn8znIFCffPNRyOEVm7j8G2Vh4tYW/d8krXUAGnIBmIjIa/r4yjePH7MknGEwNgmBoaPonX3lttSHnApJdyW/1Pheh+9UYGGLzG6OPCYOdJfPXkAEoQww0dFI+K3fgF+lpeoYPbO1BGc=; X-YMail-OSG: YrZrKIUVM1leUOqBlbJ1pc0ZyVlIixeRVYyQW2VFexIBB0o79QomAJDBOAioqG_0C97c0XC7jn90FHsSfAUJkJmDCsRRHdvNiVr76ztm3F1V_C9bh9pfsprjmmcXPTaM8NLYTlF6v0J3GXE- Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:17:03 -0800 (PST) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <45E34547.7040103@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-74290098-1172524623=:37585" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <13610.37585.qm@web35002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <9mtc5B.A.ru.R504FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73212 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-74290098-1172524623=:37585 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jones Beene wrote: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > It would be more interesting if JNL could somehow measure temperature > changes directly on the spinning magnetic material. He could use a > thermal gun. That probably will not happen, but then we have Steorn.... This company is an enigma to me, as their approach is so... how shall I say it? 'brain-dead' is a bit crude (Steve Jobs' favorite repartee) but not inaccurate from everything which has appeared in print. ... but anyway... although I am more skeptical of Steorn than of the Newman machine, both may well demonstrate glimpses of OU at times, with repeatability being the salient issue. Nevertheless, it would be ridiculously easy for Steorn (assuming that they even have a well-equipped laboratory, which is not a given) to take and datalog these measurements, and then to report the results without giving up a scintilla of proprietary information. The forum intro states that their device does not interact with the environment for its power. And the CEO has explicitly said that there is not a temperature change in the environment of the device, aside from heat generated by friction. They've done the experiment. You may be disappointed that they don't give out the numbers, but considering how much money they could lose if the cat is let out of the bag before they are ready, I can't say I blame them. Then the question would remain (assuming a temperature drop)... can you trust anyone who chooses this kind of strategy to introduce an earth-shaking transformative technology - which supposedly is already patented, and which is instantly marketable by any number of large and cash-loaded corporate partners, if it did not come with heavy 'baggage'? ...unless, of course Steorn suspects that they a sooo-close to success, yet that the technology is not quite(?)= repeatable? reliable? robust? or whatever... and are praying to St. Patrick for some kind of Irish-luck miracle of insight, to be derived from the assorted experts who have been enticed by the hype, and who are, in effect, giving them free consulting services which they could never otherwise afford. That gambit is the only scenario which makes any sense to me. Jones --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. --0-74290098-1172524623=:37585 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
energymover@gmail.com wrote:

> It would be more interesting if JNL could somehow measure temperature
> changes directly on the spinning magnetic material. He could use a
> thermal gun.

That probably will not happen, but then we have Steorn....

This company is an enigma to me, as their approach is so... how shall I
say it? 'brain-dead' is a bit crude (Steve Jobs' favorite repartee) but
not inaccurate from everything which has appeared in print.

... but anyway... although I am more skeptical of Steorn than of the
Newman machine, both may well demonstrate glimpses of OU at times, with
repeatability being the salient issue.

Nevertheless, it would be ridiculously easy for Steorn (assuming that
they even have a well-equipped laboratory, which is not a given) to take
and datalog these measurements, and then to report the results without
giving up a scintilla of proprietary information.


The forum intro states that their device does not interact with the environment for its power.  And the CEO has explicitly said that there is not a temperature change in the environment of the device, aside from heat generated by friction.

They've done the experiment. You may be disappointed that they don't give out the numbers, but considering how much money they could lose if the cat is let out of the bag before they are ready, I can't say I blame them.


Then the question would remain (assuming a temperature drop)... can you
trust anyone who chooses this kind of strategy to introduce an
earth-shaking transformative technology - which supposedly is already
patented, and which is instantly marketable by any number of large and
cash-loaded corporate partners, if it did not come with heavy 'baggage'?

...unless, of course Steorn suspects that they a sooo-close to success,
yet that the technology is not quite(?)= repeatable? reliable? robust?
or whatever... and are praying to St. Patrick for some kind of
Irish-luck miracle of insight, to be derived from the assorted experts
who have been enticed by the hype, and who are, in effect, giving them
free consulting services which they could never otherwise afford.

That gambit is the only scenario which makes any sense to me.

Jones


The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. --0-74290098-1172524623=:37585-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 14:59:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QMxTjG020115; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:59:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QMxQDb020097; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:59:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:59:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1QMxNuA020078 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73213 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For calculus I can't help for lack of time I am afraid. Maybe you could consider using software for that, Mathematica does wonders at solving tricky integrals and such. Besides I must admit I don't understand much of what you're writing, knowing very little about magnetism. I understand your aim is to use magnetic material as a kind of heat pump to draw heat from the atmosphere, but that's about all. Maybe you should make your explanations shorter and more practical. Suppose your theory works as you expect, can you briefly describe the energy extraction device workings, order of magnitude of the size, the form of energy it would output? (heat, electricity?) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had > convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets > got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, but > couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy > you must expend to separate them in the first place? > > > Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to > separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate since > there's always some energy loss such as radiation. > > Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been > unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient > temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and vibrating at > room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our > planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to capture > that ambient temperature energy. > > I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm > coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche consists > of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating > magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such > radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the > magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric > effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic moments > want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the magnetic > moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero > Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic moments > in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient > temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient > temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied field is > removed. > > The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while > providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful > energy output. > > The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey what > I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A > researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as > vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil > influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction > in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in > common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a > rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A > neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on atom X. > Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational force on > atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. > > Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs > appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is understanding > the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For > example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero > internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has close to > maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say 300K > greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and > amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room > temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed by an > energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally > simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent magnet > within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic > material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved > design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy > would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core > temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that > adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. > > That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this > research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would > publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day this > is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only > purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense > intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people > would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. All > that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, which > I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer > programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has > already delayed my research over two months. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 15:23:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QNNV2E001378; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:23:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QNNS44001352; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:23:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ROpA3I4Hc1usMLGDHohzgU44F8uSF14uDDw59oPyUxtYIoUetyWCI8ernizzLtuDTAPTFE4ha0eXqalBEx19p6DyL1R/VayiLkjBU81moGetvJaPhdkJ69AcX0YCQFHdgHfW36WEho1G5+sK4w4QQ6/4Xh47LFn/5yBItvgZDio= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aTzsQ/NeSnp7+uRSbjTRgBVJMCuo2e8KGQ/ZcOpMCPLyGOx4dAPHx9yIhQFrIOysc+V/urPqX9I5G6a5qCAuFkQE2ilXqxFADFm8GH0IF/IIvZuh5p3lAZh44RWnKlDOX5XLtFK4sbBHoY+3/zL3IZbzabBWci7l6VeE4pyeBTo= Message-ID: <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:23:01 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4fMHAD.A.BV.vv24FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73214 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually I wouldn't use the term "atmosphere" to describe the energy source. The output of such a device would be electricity. Lets say an appliance is connected to the device and energy is given the appliance. The device, more specifically the magnetic material, would cool down. The device would cool down and reach thermal equilibrium due to thermal conduction. So we have a device that's colder than room temperature and an appliance that is receiving energy. Most appliances simply return the energy in the form of heat. In a nutshell, energy is flowing from the device to the appliance to the air and back to the device. I've posted and attempted to explain how the MEG works. Such attempts at explaining the process have been a waste of time. Even a simple outlined explanation of the MCE process seems to be a waste of time. It just seems most physicists are uninterested. Perhaps they disbelieve ... who knows why. I feel like a legitimate unheard person shouting "Wolf." Regards, Paul Lowrance Michel Jullian wrote: > For calculus I can't help for lack of time I am afraid. Maybe you could consider using software for that, Mathematica does wonders at solving tricky integrals and such. > > Besides I must admit I don't understand much of what you're writing, knowing very little about magnetism. I understand your aim is to use magnetic material as a kind of heat pump to draw heat from the atmosphere, but that's about all. Maybe you should make your explanations shorter and more practical. Suppose your theory works as you expect, can you briefly describe the energy extraction device workings, order of magnitude of the size, the form of energy it would output? (heat, electricity?) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > >> Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had >> convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets >> got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, but >> couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy >> you must expend to separate them in the first place? >> >> >> Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to >> separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate since >> there's always some energy loss such as radiation. >> >> Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been >> unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient >> temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and vibrating at >> room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our >> planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to capture >> that ambient temperature energy. >> >> I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm >> coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche consists >> of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating >> magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such >> radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the >> magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric >> effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic moments >> want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the magnetic >> moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero >> Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic moments >> in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient >> temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient >> temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied field is >> removed. >> >> The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while >> providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful >> energy output. >> >> The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey what >> I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A >> researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as >> vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil >> influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction >> in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in >> common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a >> rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A >> neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on atom X. >> Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational force on >> atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. >> >> Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs >> appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is understanding >> the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For >> example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero >> internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has close to >> maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say 300K >> greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and >> amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room >> temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed by an >> energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally >> simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent magnet >> within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic >> material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved >> design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy >> would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core >> temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that >> adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. >> >> That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this >> research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would >> publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day this >> is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only >> purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense >> intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people >> would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. All >> that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, which >> I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer >> programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has >> already delayed my research over two months. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 15:25:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1QNPBMU023094; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:25:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1QNP9Jq023077; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:25:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:25:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=t+ZiKZk+sQAwGYbC6jgegLYeT+HiJrcsTK/GEDYRs9m+UoHeyg3vmmg9GXh11GaASXEekC+rsLW17iwOQcm830ahmw1NN3NJkxNgj6mYZAKJfDNz9E3Mn57aaOPXevtPArDE5s6cLpHuyPxpYze1d3Sg6/iJd23KJMllHwx7IoM=; X-YMail-OSG: pB3hDXkVM1nIMIHQ9JSLm5fl_qgPPV7KMrAYrljdXkBPaoYPyFQ9GnFCa0GY8yAfhp6sozRh1cqK3vxOccLM3QF8dQYnPRaA0WIjLygEauIhw9DqjnPS1oMxlFrZLlYfrOci_OpGGDVbCQI- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.8 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.8 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:25:09 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <247274.52499.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1QNP8bQ023059 Resent-Message-ID: <3KRWtC.A.doF.Vx24FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73215 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: : Quantum Thermodynamics Status: O X-Status: Paul, If you haven't seen this - someone may have mentioned it before - and have the inclination to wade through a hundred pages, which will tell you a lot about the Finn mentality and how they cope with interminable winters... and perhaps even a few pages related to what you have been looking into (p 22-26) have a shot at: http://www.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/faraday.pdf >From the scarce amount of data available it would seem that there could be a connection between this putative phenomenon of ambient heat withdrawal, magnetic extropy/entopy and microwave frequencies. This is suggestive of a CMB-tapping mechanism. Jones "During the self-sustained mode a cooling of the environment in the vicinity of the magnetic system is observed. A stable fall of the common temperature 22 C of laboratory by 6-8 degrees was observed. This suggests violation of the second law. The sucking of energy from environment by a phase conjugate mechanism could be involved. That phase conjugate waves are involved was proposed also in the article of Dr. Paul la Violette [17]. Phase conjugate microwaves generated by magnetostatic waves are the best candidate for the generalized standing waves (actually rotating around stator magnet). The reason is that for sufficiently long wavelengths the dispersion relation does not depend on wavelength so that arbitrary wave pattern repeats itself periodically with a frequency which is expressible in terms of Larmor frequencies of electron in the fields defined by the magnetization and by the external field (now the field of roller inside stator)." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 16:26:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R0Plne008942; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:25:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R0PesS008914; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:25:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:25:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:25:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1R0PcWH008896 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73216 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok I remember you mentioned something of the sort now. So the hard bit is to make the material convert its thermal energy contents to electrical energy obviously, the rest follows. Known thermoelectric devices e.g. thermocouples need temperature differentials, what makes you think you don't need one? Something feels wrong about that material of yours acting as a heat source getting cooler while providing electricity without some of the heat going to a cooler place, what makes the heat move in the first place? Any experimental support for your theory? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > Actually I wouldn't use the term "atmosphere" to describe the energy source. > The output of such a device would be electricity. Lets say an appliance is > connected to the device and energy is given the appliance. The device, more > specifically the magnetic material, would cool down. The device would cool down > and reach thermal equilibrium due to thermal conduction. So we have a device > that's colder than room temperature and an appliance that is receiving energy. > Most appliances simply return the energy in the form of heat. In a nutshell, > energy is flowing from the device to the appliance to the air and back to the > device. > > I've posted and attempted to explain how the MEG works. Such attempts at > explaining the process have been a waste of time. Even a simple outlined > explanation of the MCE process seems to be a waste of time. It just seems most > physicists are uninterested. Perhaps they disbelieve ... who knows why. I feel > like a legitimate unheard person shouting "Wolf." > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > For calculus I can't help for lack of time I am afraid. Maybe you could > consider using software for that, Mathematica does wonders at solving tricky > integrals and such. > > > > Besides I must admit I don't understand much of what you're writing, knowing > very little about magnetism. I understand your aim is to use magnetic material > as a kind of heat pump to draw heat from the atmosphere, but that's about all. > Maybe you should make your explanations shorter and more practical. Suppose your > theory works as you expect, can you briefly describe the energy extraction > device workings, order of magnitude of the size, the form of energy it would > output? (heat, electricity?) > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:09 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > > > > >> Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. > >> > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had > >> convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets > >> got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, > but > >> couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy > >> you must expend to separate them in the first place? > >> > >> > >> Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to > >> separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate since > >> there's always some energy loss such as radiation. > >> > >> Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been > >> unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient > >> temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and > vibrating at > >> room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our > >> planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to > capture > >> that ambient temperature energy. > >> > >> I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm > >> coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche consists > >> of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating > >> magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such > >> radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the > >> magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric > >> effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic moments > >> want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the > magnetic > >> moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero > >> Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic moments > >> in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient > >> temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient > >> temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied > field is > >> removed. > >> > >> The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while > >> providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful > >> energy output. > >> > >> The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey what > >> I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A > >> researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as > >> vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil > >> influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction > >> in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in > >> common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a > >> rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A > >> neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on > atom X. > >> Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational force on > >> atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. > >> > >> Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs > >> appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is understanding > >> the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For > >> example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero > >> internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has close to > >> maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say 300K > >> greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and > >> amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room > >> temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed by an > >> energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally > >> simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent > magnet > >> within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic > >> material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved > >> design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy > >> would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core > >> temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that > >> adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. > >> > >> That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this > >> research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would > >> publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day this > >> is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only > >> purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense > >> intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people > >> would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. > All > >> that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, > which > >> I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer > >> programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has > >> already delayed my research over two months. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 17:06:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R161jt018348; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:06:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R15xAY018317; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:05:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:05:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=e4+T+Habl9Ms3tv2dR/tDsXz5U3faY6sHULF2KHUg9l15UatRrujDKBB1lFsaR2R4zVEP7RCi0Stnkrgw9Ifv0oAGFfaPz8tFItbU3Hh2Q16chrspEaiFqeos4zuAhnS6I/Zez15RkctNdykAckTGxiOcR5xTKBGV2HUq3B0i60= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ABF82v49s3GWiVpi6Yoyf6FpqLFqMQ1YVcx8aOOb9tR7rN7yVb9uoWhH4q7gMRpiPQwy8UnfaALh+Z5kPPxOEufkbyFfS0+kdkR9Jhgi1yykV/zgj6aZJb3CogoI9SGmDzhQRL1Y+jgyeSz7mtQnhCPbAt+dj8yj2zM71oblF/M= Message-ID: <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:05:35 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73217 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > Ok I remember you mentioned something of the sort now. So the hard bit is to make the material convert its thermal energy contents to electrical energy obviously, the rest follows. > > Known thermoelectric devices e.g. thermocouples need temperature differentials, what makes you think you don't need one? Something feels wrong about that material of yours acting as a heat source getting cooler while providing electricity without some of the heat going to a cooler place, what makes the heat move in the first place? --- Does something sound wrong about extracting energy from a room full of basketballs bouncing all over the place? Does something sound wrong about extracting energy from air gas molecules bouncing in a container? Does something sound wrong about extracting energy from ferromagnetic atoms that are vibrating at roughly 20 trillion times per second? There's a well-known and well quoted physicists P.W. Bridgman, (1941), "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." Even the physicists at Wikipedia display that quote in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics wiki page. The 2nd law of thermodynamics varies from physicist to physicist. Those who adhere to a stricter version believe there's no available entropy in a closed container of air at room temperature at a constant temperature. An electrical resistor generates electrical noise. There is no upper voltage crest to such noise. The longer you wait the higher the probability the observer will detect a higher voltage crest of such noise. Furthermore, there is no *true* voltage level at which an LED suddenly *completely* stops emitting photons. Place a microvolt on an LED and wait long enough and it will emit a photon. Average those photons over time caused by that small voltage and it will be above blackbody radiation level. Connect a noisy resistor across a red LED and it will emit red photons. That may not sound like a lot of energy, and it's not given one such unit (R & LED). Create a few hundred trillion of such units and you have a good constant visible "free energy" light source. Such a unit could be several hundred nanometers is diameter, depending on the LED's wavelength. > Any experimental support for your theory? Yes, I have my proof. Initially I had three unique experiments that demonstrated energy extraction from ambient temperature. 1. MCE. 2. R & LED. 3. T-ray lens. The first, MCE, was ridiculously difficult to replicate for various reasons ranging from the nanocrystalline and amorphous cores sensitivity to external electromagnetic fields and the sensitive temperature sensing nature of the experiment. Theretofore I no longer demonstrate experiment #1 since experiment #2 & #3 is sufficient. I will demonstrate such proof to any scientist who signs papers thereby promising they will dedicate a minimum amount of time per month on such research. Getting people to work on such research in private is one thing given live demonstrations to appeal their skepticism. Getting people to publicly work on such research is another story. The balls already rolling. Truthfully I set up a system so not even I could halt this research at this point, which was the goal. Regards, Paul Lowrance > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > >> Actually I wouldn't use the term "atmosphere" to describe the energy source. >> The output of such a device would be electricity. Lets say an appliance is >> connected to the device and energy is given the appliance. The device, more >> specifically the magnetic material, would cool down. The device would cool down >> and reach thermal equilibrium due to thermal conduction. So we have a device >> that's colder than room temperature and an appliance that is receiving energy. >> Most appliances simply return the energy in the form of heat. In a nutshell, >> energy is flowing from the device to the appliance to the air and back to the >> device. >> >> I've posted and attempted to explain how the MEG works. Such attempts at >> explaining the process have been a waste of time. Even a simple outlined >> explanation of the MCE process seems to be a waste of time. It just seems most >> physicists are uninterested. Perhaps they disbelieve ... who knows why. I feel >> like a legitimate unheard person shouting "Wolf." >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> For calculus I can't help for lack of time I am afraid. Maybe you could >> consider using software for that, Mathematica does wonders at solving tricky >> integrals and such. >>> Besides I must admit I don't understand much of what you're writing, knowing >> very little about magnetism. I understand your aim is to use magnetic material >> as a kind of heat pump to draw heat from the atmosphere, but that's about all. >> Maybe you should make your explanations shorter and more practical. Suppose your >> theory works as you expect, can you briefly describe the energy extraction >> device workings, order of magnitude of the size, the form of energy it would >> output? (heat, electricity?) >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:09 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics >>> >>> >>>> Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. >>>> >>>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had >>>> convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets >>>> got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, >> but >>>> couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy >>>> you must expend to separate them in the first place? >>>> >>>> >>>> Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to >>>> separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate since >>>> there's always some energy loss such as radiation. >>>> >>>> Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been >>>> unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient >>>> temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and >> vibrating at >>>> room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our >>>> planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to >> capture >>>> that ambient temperature energy. >>>> >>>> I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm >>>> coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche consists >>>> of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating >>>> magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such >>>> radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the >>>> magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric >>>> effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic moments >>>> want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the >> magnetic >>>> moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero >>>> Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic moments >>>> in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient >>>> temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient >>>> temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied >> field is >>>> removed. >>>> >>>> The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while >>>> providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful >>>> energy output. >>>> >>>> The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey what >>>> I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A >>>> researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as >>>> vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil >>>> influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction >>>> in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in >>>> common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a >>>> rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A >>>> neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on >> atom X. >>>> Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational force on >>>> atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. >>>> >>>> Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs >>>> appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is understanding >>>> the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For >>>> example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero >>>> internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has close to >>>> maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say 300K >>>> greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and >>>> amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room >>>> temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed by an >>>> energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally >>>> simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent >> magnet >>>> within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic >>>> material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved >>>> design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy >>>> would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core >>>> temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that >>>> adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. >>>> >>>> That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this >>>> research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would >>>> publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day this >>>> is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only >>>> purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense >>>> intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people >>>> would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. >> All >>>> that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, >> which >>>> I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer >>>> programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has >>>> already delayed my research over two months. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 17:39:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R1cjN6010350; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:38:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R1ci0D010342; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:38:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c75a0f$fe026e90$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:38:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73218 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E.V. Gray experiment Status: O X-Status: A description such as this lacks much essential information necessary to distinguish it from a 'mundane' electrical stunt. It's hardly wortth speculating about. A lead-acid battery can supply very large surge currents [as in starting a car] and with proper windings electromagnets can strongly repel and if left connected would get quite hot. Capacitors can be charged in parallel and discharged in series to provide extraordinary surge power for rail guns and electromagnetic forming. AC fields can configured to attract non-magnetic conductors and even insulators. Looks magical until you think deeply. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:30 PM Subject: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment > There's a specific experiment that the late E.V. Gray performed that is > fascinating --> > > > Quote, > --- > In the workshop, a 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires ran > from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to Gray's > discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, each > weighing a pound and a quarter. > > The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different > form of electrical current --- a powerful but "cold" form of the energy. > > As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two > magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to > make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the magnets > would get extremely hot." > > Fritz Lens activated the battery. A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts. Gray > threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. The top magnet flew off > with a powerful force. Richard Hackenberger caught it with his bare hands. > > What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of > electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. The fact that Hackenberger > caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of that. > --- > > > Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? > Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. I > firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient > temperature. > > Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic material > were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging > across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How were the > electromagnets situated? > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 17:57:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R1uwEx019641; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:56:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R1uvNr019627; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:56:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aS4TmtWTLDP/5m34e4DZtM+Q7Xj5MPKS4PvhzmnACPXnKtvrnUpsJ0i0KSse19uzZnQNGwYAUkzLvlhVVcaH+T00hwWzdmcMvWXRArfu7zAs/dzpGrP9T4GWwO0qcwoThZrduLNJjiJpGifAcE8DW3ynvWhJdGhMelv+TlzrJp4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hRtxw34vJJ+sGY+USH77FIboKVdvVVwlr0HS0WOYzf3sgcQN9WryOr/8Hic+gRaZ25wS5ixb3ZlZVIDmQ7NpbIZPrmHEd+9X+7voiI3f2QoXzyg6x654KFVcZ0BMLEsz4PboNi7xEzXvC61Y8CvHUYj+4dhnx18nUzfkY8d5zoA= Message-ID: <45E38FD3.2050206@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:56:35 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: E.V. Gray experiment References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> <002601c75a0f$fe026e90$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <002601c75a0f$fe026e90$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_oR-NC.A.nyE.o_44FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73219 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's interesting is the suggestion that the cores get cold. That's really the only effect I would be interested in regards to this experiment. Paul Lowrance Mike Carrell wrote: > A description such as this lacks much essential information necessary to > distinguish it from a 'mundane' electrical stunt. It's hardly wortth > speculating about. A lead-acid battery can supply very large surge > currents [as in starting a car] and with proper windings electromagnets > can strongly repel and if left connected would get quite hot. Capacitors > can be charged in parallel and discharged in series to provide > extraordinary surge power for rail guns and electromagnetic forming. AC > fields can configured to attract non-magnetic conductors and even > insulators. Looks magical until you think deeply. > > Mike Carrell > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:30 PM > Subject: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment > > >> There's a specific experiment that the late E.V. Gray performed that >> is fascinating --> >> >> >> Quote, >> --- >> In the workshop, a 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires >> ran from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to >> Gray's discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, >> each weighing a pound and a quarter. >> >> The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different >> form of electrical current --- a powerful but "cold" form of the energy. >> >> As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two >> magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to >> make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the >> magnets would get extremely hot." >> >> Fritz Lens activated the battery. A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts. >> Gray threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. The top magnet >> flew off with a powerful force. Richard Hackenberger caught it with >> his bare hands. >> >> What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of >> electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. The fact that >> Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough >> of that. >> --- >> >> >> Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? >> Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. >> I firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient >> temperature. >> >> Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic >> material were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors >> discharging across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How >> were the electromagnets situated? >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 20:45:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R4jIZb027417; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:45:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R4jGTu027402; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:45:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:45:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=CyBKC7RkLOku1NhLeb/ipokZyrvFr4leGKxUSXcku+yuT9JCJ8OKyue6cwSmrKWamLbZktaNXMfBDNBK8ODgyyzrZyPdxUMQ9fVO35RTpm1n5RmG2z5xWYC9hQan9+c1qNQMswiSIESFqbvyLOcDHiwmMG5aAqDE2/R9pZ2Rz48= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bLSZWMX4BWENT94ZNI2Z4rSR7JxbGRLQutpylCYWqWi3/os5tgvuLtVlG3djwvBLgw0pc91N6R88IHRgmLYnYqbaBwflqtl3xrxJ3qGJeNcArnY4E5/oRL5xGhuKs9MencPPickq5xOHcVDoTVO+SktqyTG8buoOWPI8eUvAFas= Message-ID: <538fa8f10702262045w2faab466u7bfff05134691587@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:45:05 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: E.V. Gray experiment In-Reply-To: <45E38FD3.2050206@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2473_27947610.1172551505710" References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> <002601c75a0f$fe026e90$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <45E38FD3.2050206@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73220 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2473_27947610.1172551505710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well wasnt one of the points that he could demonstrate lighting of bulbs, underwater. and that the lit bulbs wouldnt get cold at all. anything to do with "cold electricity" perchance? ;) On 27/02/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > What's interesting is the suggestion that the cores get cold. That's > really the > only effect I would be interested in regards to this experiment. > > Paul Lowrance > > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > A description such as this lacks much essential information necessary to > > distinguish it from a 'mundane' electrical stunt. It's hardly wortth > > speculating about. A lead-acid battery can supply very large surge > > currents [as in starting a car] and with proper windings electromagnets > > can strongly repel and if left connected would get quite hot. Capacitors > > can be charged in parallel and discharged in series to provide > > extraordinary surge power for rail guns and electromagnetic forming. AC > > fields can configured to attract non-magnetic conductors and even > > insulators. Looks magical until you think deeply. > > > > Mike Carrell > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > To: > > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:30 PM > > Subject: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment > > > > > >> There's a specific experiment that the late E.V. Gray performed that > >> is fascinating --> > >> > >> > >> Quote, > >> --- > >> In the workshop, a 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires > >> ran from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to > >> Gray's discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, > >> each weighing a pound and a quarter. > >> > >> The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different > >> form of electrical current --- a powerful but "cold" form of the > energy. > >> > >> As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two > >> magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to > >> make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the > >> magnets would get extremely hot." > >> > >> Fritz Lens activated the battery. A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts. > >> Gray threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. The top magnet > >> flew off with a powerful force. Richard Hackenberger caught it with > >> his bare hands. > >> > >> What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of > >> electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. The fact that > >> Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough > >> of that. > >> --- > >> > >> > >> Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? > >> Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. > >> I firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient > >> temperature. > >> > >> Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic > >> material were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors > >> discharging across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How > >> were the electromagnets situated? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > ------=_Part_2473_27947610.1172551505710 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well wasnt one of the points that he could demonstrate lighting of bulbs, underwater. and that the lit bulbs wouldnt get cold at all.
anything to do with "cold electricity" perchance? ;)


On 27/02/07, energymover@gmail.com <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
What's interesting is the suggestion that the cores get cold.  That's really the
only effect I would be interested in regards to this experiment.

Paul Lowrance



Mike Carrell wrote:
> A description such as this lacks much essential information necessary to
> distinguish it from a 'mundane' electrical stunt. It's hardly wortth
> speculating about. A lead-acid battery can supply very large surge
> currents [as in starting a car] and with proper windings electromagnets
> can strongly repel and if left connected would get quite hot. Capacitors
> can be charged in parallel and discharged in series to provide
> extraordinary surge power for rail guns and electromagnetic forming. AC
> fields can configured to attract non-magnetic conductors and even
> insulators. Looks magical until you think deeply.
>
> Mike Carrell
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: < energymover@gmail.com>
> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:30 PM
> Subject: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment
>
>
>> There's a specific experiment that the late E.V. Gray performed that
>> is fascinating -->
>>
>>
>> Quote,
>> ---
>> In the workshop, a 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires
>> ran from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to
>> Gray's discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets,
>> each weighing a pound and a quarter.
>>
>> The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different
>> form of electrical current --- a powerful but "cold" form of the energy.
>>
>> As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two
>> magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to
>> make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the
>> magnets would get extremely hot."
>>
>> Fritz Lens activated the battery. A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts.
>> Gray threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. The top magnet
>> flew off with a powerful force. Richard Hackenberger caught it with
>> his bare hands.
>>
>> What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of
>> electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. The fact that
>> Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough
>> of that.
>> ---
>>
>>
>> Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment?
>> Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity.
>> I firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient
>> temperature.
>>
>> Are there any photos of this experiment?  What type of magnetic
>> material were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors
>> discharging across the electromagnets or was there a circuit?  How
>> were the electromagnets situated?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Paul Lowrance


------=_Part_2473_27947610.1172551505710-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 21:20:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R5KCH6010471; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:20:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R5KBAF010452; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:20:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=AxkRjqqAfM4ccg3tp3sbrL7QLs6ig3M2wE0CRtvkPfFRGxgkh6ks1RnPfCEHUhuD55bwwdtjHYt1nJxAp5GxTvEzyAzX84mBYfUFnt/OAS+NkQfcyYwQ2omVlqYiqZe0EuttsS30X4WYgzs/kzC/ixBRO8T878n8+7EUuXEPMj8=; X-YMail-OSG: vMvCVeoVM1lSzyDesL2dLHNRuCnFBpbH.rBPx9hA036gglADtTro0B_Myefb0JvM4geKKpe8MSw4NOtRXfobbHyVy.bFOJd4wVMG1Vb0vCuEMfkou6fZ5Q4XEJPVAkf3XKAWfkpZBNKKU3w- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.8 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.8 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1877862121-1172553610=:28603" Message-ID: <803710.28603.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73221 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: E.V. Gray experiment Status: O X-Status: --0-1877862121-1172553610=:28603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Esa Ruoho =0A=0AWhat a coincidence. Dou= ble coincidence really - if we consider Finland and cold magnets and an ear= lier post ...=0A=0AI was tuning into an internet radio station here in Cali= fornia ( the Drone Zone, SOMA FM) where a piece was being played, composed= by none other than Esa Ruoho. =0A=0AThis was too coincidental - so I had t= o check with Wiki, the expert on everything, and indeed the composer is a p= erson interested in alternative energy --=0A=0Ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki= /Lackluster=0A=0AIf you are that Esa, then you may be pleased to know that = your minimalist music is well appreciated by at least one Vo. Otherwise it = is most coincidental.=0A=0AJones=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1877862121-1172553610=:28603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message ----
From: Esa Ruoho

What a coin= cidence. Double coincidence really - if we consider Finland and cold magnet= s and an earlier post ...

I was tuning into an internet radio statio= n here in California ( the Drone Zone,  SOMA FM) where a piece was bei= ng played, composed by none other than Esa Ruoho.

This was too coin= cidental - so I had to check with Wiki, the expert on everything, and indee= d the composer is a person interested in alternative energy --

http= ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lackluster

If you are that Esa, = then you may be pleased to know that your minimalist music is well appreciated by at least one Vo.= Otherwise it is most coincidental.

Jones

<= /body> --0-1877862121-1172553610=:28603-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 21:28:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R5SH3o013704; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:28:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R5SGEP013689; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:28:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:28:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E3C159.1080305@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:27:53 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73222 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Michel Jullian wrote: > > >>Doing calculations in an accelerating frame makes me sick I am afraid ;-) But I guess it would be the same force, since it's not a ficticious one like e.g. >>the centrifugal force. >> Hum; ficticious force? Isn't the force that causes water going down drain to spin the centrifugal force?, what about tornados? The emdrive also comes to mind. If it works, is that a frame based phenomena? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 22:40:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R6eUIm005454; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:40:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R6eS6a005442; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:40:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-AuditID: c0a8013c-ae22cbb000000a22-cf-45e3d25ab2e9 Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:40:23 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070221100533.035da3a0@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73223 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A rock dropped from the top of either tower would have taken approximately 9 seconds to hit the ground.... free fall. Both towers fell in the same time frame 9 and 10 seconds approximately... free fall. ANY resistance from 'pan caking' or structural failure would have shown up in a significant increase in collapse time... several orders of magnitude more. And that is not even touching the fact that the resulting SYMMETRICAL damage profile is completely wrong for that hypothesis. Crash 10 fully fueled 767s into it if you want. You would never get even the worst tower ever built to collapse like that. The ONLY way for ANY structure like that to free fall collapse completely is staged demolition. All supports removed in an instant from top to bottom at regular intervals. Period. Those buildings were dropped (and nicely in one spot too). By who, why, or how is all a matter of conjecture after one recognizes that basic mathematical observation. NOT conspiracy theory. NOT arm chair science. No 'experts' needed. Simple math. Yes, please do "apply a modicum of quantitative thinking, basic physics and common sense to your assertions." -j -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:50 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Let me say something here, people: This is a science forum. Please apply a modicum of quantitative thinking, basic physics and common sense to your assertions. You should realize that airplanes are much larger now than they were in 1945, and therefore the kinetic energy from an airplane crash is much greater. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 23:48:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R7lpIA013330; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:47:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R7lmqR013301; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:47:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:47:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <30a101c75a43$911946d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:47:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1R7lkEF013276 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73224 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In any case you're not the first one to challenge the 2nd law, some famous names have tried before you it seems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics If I was you I would study their work in depth, if only to make sure I don't duplicate it. E.g. have you looked into Feynman's brownian ratchet thought experiment BTW, and if so have you understood why it couldn't work according to him? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > Michel Jullian wrote: > --- > > Ok I remember you mentioned something of the sort now. So the hard bit is to > make the material convert its thermal energy contents to electrical energy > obviously, the rest follows. > > > > Known thermoelectric devices e.g. thermocouples need temperature > differentials, what makes you think you don't need one? Something feels wrong > about that material of yours acting as a heat source getting cooler while > providing electricity without some of the heat going to a cooler place, what > makes the heat move in the first place? > --- > > > > Does something sound wrong about extracting energy from a room full of > basketballs bouncing all over the place? Does something sound wrong about > extracting energy from air gas molecules bouncing in a container? Does > something sound wrong about extracting energy from ferromagnetic atoms that are > vibrating at roughly 20 trillion times per second? > > There's a well-known and well quoted physicists P.W. Bridgman, (1941), "There > are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions > of it." Even the physicists at Wikipedia display that quote in the 2nd Law of > Thermodynamics wiki page. > > The 2nd law of thermodynamics varies from physicist to physicist. Those who > adhere to a stricter version believe there's no available entropy in a closed > container of air at room temperature at a constant temperature. > > An electrical resistor generates electrical noise. There is no upper voltage > crest to such noise. The longer you wait the higher the probability the > observer will detect a higher voltage crest of such noise. Furthermore, there > is no *true* voltage level at which an LED suddenly *completely* stops emitting > photons. Place a microvolt on an LED and wait long enough and it will emit a > photon. Average those photons over time caused by that small voltage and it > will be above blackbody radiation level. Connect a noisy resistor across a red > LED and it will emit red photons. That may not sound like a lot of energy, and > it's not given one such unit (R & LED). Create a few hundred trillion of such > units and you have a good constant visible "free energy" light source. Such a > unit could be several hundred nanometers is diameter, depending on the LED's > wavelength. > > > > > > Any experimental support for your theory? > > > Yes, I have my proof. Initially I had three unique experiments that demonstrated > energy extraction from ambient temperature. 1. MCE. 2. R & LED. 3. T-ray lens. > The first, MCE, was ridiculously difficult to replicate for various reasons > ranging from the nanocrystalline and amorphous cores sensitivity to external > electromagnetic fields and the sensitive temperature sensing nature of the > experiment. Theretofore I no longer demonstrate experiment #1 since experiment > #2 & #3 is sufficient. I will demonstrate such proof to any scientist who signs > papers thereby promising they will dedicate a minimum amount of time per month > on such research. > > Getting people to work on such research in private is one thing given live > demonstrations to appeal their skepticism. Getting people to publicly work on > such research is another story. The balls already rolling. Truthfully I set up > a system so not even I could halt this research at this point, which was the goal. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:23 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > > > > >> Actually I wouldn't use the term "atmosphere" to describe the energy source. > >> The output of such a device would be electricity. Lets say an appliance is > >> connected to the device and energy is given the appliance. The device, more > >> specifically the magnetic material, would cool down. The device would cool down > >> and reach thermal equilibrium due to thermal conduction. So we have a device > >> that's colder than room temperature and an appliance that is receiving energy. > >> Most appliances simply return the energy in the form of heat. In a nutshell, > >> energy is flowing from the device to the appliance to the air and back to the > >> device. > >> > >> I've posted and attempted to explain how the MEG works. Such attempts at > >> explaining the process have been a waste of time. Even a simple outlined > >> explanation of the MCE process seems to be a waste of time. It just seems most > >> physicists are uninterested. Perhaps they disbelieve ... who knows why. I feel > >> like a legitimate unheard person shouting "Wolf." > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > >> > >> > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> For calculus I can't help for lack of time I am afraid. Maybe you could > >> consider using software for that, Mathematica does wonders at solving tricky > >> integrals and such. > >>> Besides I must admit I don't understand much of what you're writing, knowing > >> very little about magnetism. I understand your aim is to use magnetic material > >> as a kind of heat pump to draw heat from the atmosphere, but that's about all. > >> Maybe you should make your explanations shorter and more practical. Suppose > your > >> theory works as you expect, can you briefly describe the energy extraction > >> device workings, order of magnitude of the size, the form of energy it would > >> output? (heat, electricity?) > >>> Michel > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:09 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > >>> > >>> > >>>> Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>>>> Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had > >>>> convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets > >>>> got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, > >> but > >>>> couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy > >>>> you must expend to separate them in the first place? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to > >>>> separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate > since > >>>> there's always some energy loss such as radiation. > >>>> > >>>> Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been > >>>> unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient > >>>> temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and > >> vibrating at > >>>> room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our > >>>> planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to > >> capture > >>>> that ambient temperature energy. > >>>> > >>>> I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm > >>>> coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche > consists > >>>> of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating > >>>> magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such > >>>> radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the > >>>> magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric > >>>> effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic > moments > >>>> want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the > >> magnetic > >>>> moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero > >>>> Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic > moments > >>>> in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient > >>>> temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient > >>>> temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied > >> field is > >>>> removed. > >>>> > >>>> The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while > >>>> providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful > >>>> energy output. > >>>> > >>>> The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey > what > >>>> I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A > >>>> researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as > >>>> vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil > >>>> influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction > >>>> in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in > >>>> common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a > >>>> rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A > >>>> neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on > >> atom X. > >>>> Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational > force on > >>>> atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. > >>>> > >>>> Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs > >>>> appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is > understanding > >>>> the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For > >>>> example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero > >>>> internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has > close to > >>>> maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say > 300K > >>>> greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and > >>>> amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room > >>>> temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed > by an > >>>> energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally > >>>> simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent > >> magnet > >>>> within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic > >>>> material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved > >>>> design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy > >>>> would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core > >>>> temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that > >>>> adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. > >>>> > >>>> That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this > >>>> research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would > >>>> publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day > this > >>>> is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only > >>>> purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense > >>>> intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people > >>>> would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. > >> All > >>>> that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, > >> which > >>>> I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer > >>>> programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has > >>>> already delayed my research over two months. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 02:16:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1R9se4K020319; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:54:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1R9sYJL020247; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:54:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:54:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:54:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73225 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <> I don't know if anyone mentioned this before but surely the "noisy resistor" is only noisy when a current is flowing through it - which takes a voltage - which needs energy input to sustain it - which will probably at least match, and most likely exceed, the energy extractable from the "red photons" - no free lunch... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 02:49:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RAnE7j001233; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RAn77Y001205; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c75a1f$903d4910$ad037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <247274.52499.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:30:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73226 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: : Quantum Thermodynamics Status: O X-Status: Howdy Jones, Depend on Jones Beene to keep me up late reading http://www.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/faraday.pdf Paragraph 3.8.3 regarding vortex... hmmm ! Once saw a vid piece on Finns showing their stoic personalities. The vid captured their actions when dancing.. absolutely no emotion expressed.Must be the long winters. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:28:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RCRrvH003206; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:27:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RCRp2x003188; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:27:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:27:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=DyuyZ4soHPfTfyv/zPyMJcJGMNeFUq6mLZx1NYkEEmuVKPKqI45MgCSEzExOOeTk; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <9259723.1172579270334.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:27:50 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191ccc4b22954af131a1affcd0e222adf6e59233864d889c3e82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.28 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73227 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >ANY resistance from 'pan caking' or structural failure would have shown up >in a significant increase in collapse time... several orders of magnitude >more. That is incorrect. Many buildings have collapsed, on purpose and by accident, and they fall nearly as quickly as with a freefall. > And that is not even touching the fact that the resulting SYMMETRICAL >damage profile is completely wrong for that hypothesis. Then why do ALL building engineers worldwide agree this is expected? Why are they not outraged at the conclusions made by NIST and others? How is it that these exerts are so foolish? This is like asserting that 200 electrochemists do not recognize recombination when they see it. >The ONLY way for ANY structure like that to free fall collapse completely is >staged demolition. All supports removed in an instant from top to bottom at >regular intervals. Period. That is completely incorrect. I suggest you review the methods employed by Controlled Demolition. They do not remove "all supports" on "all floors." One set of supports is enough. The others are broken instantly as the building collapses, and it happens at freefall speed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:59:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RCwkoA023572; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:58:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RCwjbI023560; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:58:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:58:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c75a6f$0333e1f0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <9259723.1172579270334.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:58:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73228 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I do not think they went down in freefall, after a few seconds the rate looks like it nearly stabilises as the resistance from the undamaged structure below just about cancels the acceleration of the mass above - I suspect this figure of 9 or 10 seconds need to be examined from the videos and the "free fall time" needs to recalculated... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 07:05:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RF5h82019929; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:05:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RF5eQS019916; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:05:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:05:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WMML+/gYY5E9v848NYNs3lnMSX2G6FbV6hSr6FzpZAdMgNBhp1lw7pIKAA+Iae44vPb/rnTS0xgmg1d808EPeZ/ToaAuPaWbpV6gWIziDIHyndX61A4z5x4PYqn/hO0qV3bBr0Mb/u8PYvtVaUhcBjSjVcB2j08oY5XKWB/psV0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DS/djfg7J29wC+d2VTVTfejOsms1ZVai4zxkD2V59L5MFfYfAh0HWrydj/MVOBPUyaXmVys8NjCP4TEkDr7GtT6RsxNXpblHADTuITM0KUY9ctY4pF930WFjw2DUQTj3YUZLsD5OCi27MH37gnmlWjo1NPAWwgn7IU28oLZURxA= Message-ID: <45E448AC.5060901@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:05:16 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <30a101c75a43$911946d0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <30a101c75a43$911946d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73229 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > In any case you're not the first one to challenge the 2nd law, some famous names have tried before you it seems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics > If I was you I would study their work in depth, if only to make sure I don't duplicate it. E.g. have you looked into Feynman's brownian ratchet thought experiment BTW, and if so have you understood why it couldn't work according to him? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet Actually yes, I've been in too many 2nd law debates to not know about the ratchet and various Brownian motors. Paul > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:05 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> --- >>> Ok I remember you mentioned something of the sort now. So the hard bit is to >> make the material convert its thermal energy contents to electrical energy >> obviously, the rest follows. >>> Known thermoelectric devices e.g. thermocouples need temperature >> differentials, what makes you think you don't need one? Something feels wrong >> about that material of yours acting as a heat source getting cooler while >> providing electricity without some of the heat going to a cooler place, what >> makes the heat move in the first place? >> --- >> >> >> >> Does something sound wrong about extracting energy from a room full of >> basketballs bouncing all over the place? Does something sound wrong about >> extracting energy from air gas molecules bouncing in a container? Does >> something sound wrong about extracting energy from ferromagnetic atoms that are >> vibrating at roughly 20 trillion times per second? >> >> There's a well-known and well quoted physicists P.W. Bridgman, (1941), "There >> are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions >> of it." Even the physicists at Wikipedia display that quote in the 2nd Law of >> Thermodynamics wiki page. >> >> The 2nd law of thermodynamics varies from physicist to physicist. Those who >> adhere to a stricter version believe there's no available entropy in a closed >> container of air at room temperature at a constant temperature. >> >> An electrical resistor generates electrical noise. There is no upper voltage >> crest to such noise. The longer you wait the higher the probability the >> observer will detect a higher voltage crest of such noise. Furthermore, there >> is no *true* voltage level at which an LED suddenly *completely* stops emitting >> photons. Place a microvolt on an LED and wait long enough and it will emit a >> photon. Average those photons over time caused by that small voltage and it >> will be above blackbody radiation level. Connect a noisy resistor across a red >> LED and it will emit red photons. That may not sound like a lot of energy, and >> it's not given one such unit (R & LED). Create a few hundred trillion of such >> units and you have a good constant visible "free energy" light source. Such a >> unit could be several hundred nanometers is diameter, depending on the LED's >> wavelength. >> >> >> >> >>> Any experimental support for your theory? >> >> Yes, I have my proof. Initially I had three unique experiments that demonstrated >> energy extraction from ambient temperature. 1. MCE. 2. R & LED. 3. T-ray lens. >> The first, MCE, was ridiculously difficult to replicate for various reasons >> ranging from the nanocrystalline and amorphous cores sensitivity to external >> electromagnetic fields and the sensitive temperature sensing nature of the >> experiment. Theretofore I no longer demonstrate experiment #1 since experiment >> #2 & #3 is sufficient. I will demonstrate such proof to any scientist who signs >> papers thereby promising they will dedicate a minimum amount of time per month >> on such research. >> >> Getting people to work on such research in private is one thing given live >> demonstrations to appeal their skepticism. Getting people to publicly work on >> such research is another story. The balls already rolling. Truthfully I set up >> a system so not even I could halt this research at this point, which was the goal. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics >>> >>> >>>> Actually I wouldn't use the term "atmosphere" to describe the energy source. >>>> The output of such a device would be electricity. Lets say an appliance is >>>> connected to the device and energy is given the appliance. The device, more >>>> specifically the magnetic material, would cool down. The device would cool down >>>> and reach thermal equilibrium due to thermal conduction. So we have a device >>>> that's colder than room temperature and an appliance that is receiving energy. >>>> Most appliances simply return the energy in the form of heat. In a nutshell, >>>> energy is flowing from the device to the appliance to the air and back to the >>>> device. >>>> >>>> I've posted and attempted to explain how the MEG works. Such attempts at >>>> explaining the process have been a waste of time. Even a simple outlined >>>> explanation of the MCE process seems to be a waste of time. It just seems most >>>> physicists are uninterested. Perhaps they disbelieve ... who knows why. I feel >>>> like a legitimate unheard person shouting "Wolf." >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Paul Lowrance >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> For calculus I can't help for lack of time I am afraid. Maybe you could >>>> consider using software for that, Mathematica does wonders at solving tricky >>>> integrals and such. >>>>> Besides I must admit I don't understand much of what you're writing, knowing >>>> very little about magnetism. I understand your aim is to use magnetic material >>>> as a kind of heat pump to draw heat from the atmosphere, but that's about all. >>>> Maybe you should make your explanations shorter and more practical. Suppose >> your >>>> theory works as you expect, can you briefly describe the energy extraction >>>> device workings, order of magnitude of the size, the form of energy it would >>>> output? (heat, electricity?) >>>>> Michel >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:09 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Please read the plea for help in this research at the bottom of this post. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>> Paul the "how" question may be premature, the last I remember you had >>>>>> convincingly shown that total magnetic field energy increased when two magnets >>>>>> got attracted to each other, in addition to their kinetic energy increasing, >>>> but >>>>>> couldn't the sum of these two energy increases be exactly equal to the energy >>>>>> you must expend to separate them in the first place? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Michel, you are correct, as far as I know it requires the same energy to >>>>>> separate the magnets. Actually it should require more energy to separate >> since >>>>>> there's always some energy loss such as radiation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally the idea of "getting something from nothing" has always been >>>>>> unattractive. Therefore my research has always been about capturing ambient >>>>>> temperature energy. IOW, atoms, electrons, molecules are moving and >>>> vibrating at >>>>>> room temperature-- electron velocity ~1/200 c. The average temperature of our >>>>>> planet is obviously sustained by the Sun. Therefore it's been my goal to >>>> capture >>>>>> that ambient temperature energy. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've simulated this far too many times in my head, which is one reason I'm >>>>>> coding the simulation software. The idea is that a magnetic avalanche >> consists >>>>>> of magnetic atoms rotating and precessing in a avalanche. Such a rotating >>>>>> magnetic field of each rotating atom generates radiation. Nearly all of such >>>>>> radiation is absorbed by the magnetic material. Such radiation causes the >>>>>> magnetic material to heat up, which is first half of the MCE (Magnetocaloric >>>>>> effect) process. When the applied field is removed the aligned magnetic >> moments >>>>>> want to say in alignment, and therefore it requires energy to break the >>>> magnetic >>>>>> moment alignments. It is known that magnetic materials near absolute zero >>>>>> Kelvin stay aligned without any applied field. The reason the magnetic >> moments >>>>>> in magnetic materials at room temperature break alignment is due to ambient >>>>>> temperature. This removes energy from the magnetic materials ambient >>>>>> temperature, which is why magnetic materials cool down when the applied >>>> field is >>>>>> removed. >>>>>> >>>>>> The idea is to capture enough of such radiation to overcome all losses while >>>>>> providing enough energy to self-sustain the machine while providing useful >>>>>> energy output. >>>>>> >>>>>> The above is a vague description of my research and cannot possibly convey >> what >>>>>> I've learned, as the technique of extracting this energy is very complex. A >>>>>> researcher in this field will initially see interesting concepts such as >>>>>> vibrating atoms have no rotation preference. Example, lets say the coil >>>>>> influences more magnetic moments to rotate in a clockwise rotational direction >>>>>> in the avalanches. Although there is a great deal of rotational friction in >>>>>> common magnetic materials, you will note that vibrating atoms do no have a >>>>>> rotational preference. IOW, consider a single atom that we'll call X. A >>>>>> neighboring atom could influence a counter-clockwise rotational force on >>>> atom X. >>>>>> Next, another neighboring atom could influence a clockwise rotational >> force on >>>>>> atom X. The average rotational force on atom X is zero. >>>>>> >>>>>> Such a researcher will also understand *saturated* magnetic material absorbs >>>>>> appreciably less radiation. Another key note to such research is >> understanding >>>>>> the magnetic entropy in magnetic material during various situations. For >>>>>> example, a fully saturated magnetic toroid at absolute zero Kelvin has zero >>>>>> internal magnetic entropy. Magnetic material at Curie temperature has >> close to >>>>>> maximum internal magnetic entropy. The amount of magnetic entropy at say >> 300K >>>>>> greatly varies from material to material. I theorize nanocrystalline and >>>>>> amorphous magnetic materials possess relatively high magnetic entropy at room >>>>>> temperatures. The idea is to influence maximum magnetic entropy followed >> by an >>>>>> energy extraction technique. On many occasions I have attempted to mentally >>>>>> simulate the MEG. Such mental simulations indicate the precise permanent >>>> magnet >>>>>> within the MEG will greatly increase the magnetic entropy within the magnetic >>>>>> material. Hopefully my simulation will confirm this and lead to an improved >>>>>> design that will work on common silicon iron. One concern is that such energy >>>>>> would mostly come from the inner core, which would cause rapid inner core >>>>>> temperature changes. Such temperature changes would require a circuit that >>>>>> adapts to such changes to maintain COP > 1.0. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's an outline. What boggles my mind is physicists publicly ignore this >>>>>> research. Why? It sure would be nice if other qualified physicists would >>>>>> publicly contribute to this research. IMHO the evidence is as clear as day >> this >>>>>> is a source of "free energy" obtainable with present technology. My only >>>>>> purpose posting now a days is to gain help in this research. No offense >>>>>> intended to cold fusion and ZPE research, but it boggles my mind why people >>>>>> would continue such unknown territory when there's a guaranteed alternative. >>>> All >>>>>> that's required is a strong fundamental understanding of electromagnetism, >>>> which >>>>>> I could teach to even a child within a few weeks time. I am good at computer >>>>>> programming and deep thinking, but my Calculus is somewhat rusty, which has >>>>>> already delayed my research over two months. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 07:22:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RFMVQs011729; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:22:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RFMTvf011706; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:22:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:22:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mpeHyu4izJLFVdgG0pJMeJsxWtBRVhqS4G36GLGd0k3zq8jHnn29VSgMnfOouJ6CcUtYyGC+2yh1v8MsXoNLYJuJRFKIHzqFvpsuvmwlEInGhipOBECZWLb+5TCwWxYibFo5fYc1Uuwv/QsEBfN1bfKovlWWAso/Hat4w2UhvaY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PXOrApoDS7YshA4A6LT234SmXQbUGXmRZnCThnpCELKSEC4EG/dgBhjPBh8LiVicVgMyHViMNcZUOgXDrUeuig4mSCrqQ5wVUO3RLYiANtEgTq4g4JiZtGRxIKkce4gxVhnYOFTrhSdl846Og9rPIEc51FdPZ4qb9qKHeV11+gc= Message-ID: <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:22:02 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73230 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > <> > > I don't know if anyone mentioned this before but surely the "noisy > resistor" is only noisy when a current is flowing through it - which > takes a voltage - which needs energy input to sustain it - which will > probably at least match, and most likely exceed, the energy extractable > from the "red photons" - no free lunch... > > Nick Palmer You should read about different types of noise --> http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm Thermal voltage noise is *independent* on current. Furthermore, there is no upper crest limit to *true* thermal noise. There is free lunch for intelligent beings. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 07:33:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RFXDf2031835; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:33:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RFXChm031821; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:33:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:33:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E44F34.1040003@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:33:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? References: <9259723.1172579270334.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <001701c75a6f$0333e1f0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001701c75a6f$0333e1f0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73231 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > I do not think they went down in freefall, after a few seconds the rate > looks like it nearly stabilises as the resistance from the undamaged > structure below just about cancels the acceleration of the mass above - > I suspect this figure of 9 or 10 seconds need to be examined from the > videos and the "free fall time" needs to recalculated... If it "pancaked" down, no matter what the cause, it should have fallen at nearly free-fall speed. By "nearly" I mean within a second or so, top to bottom. This is simple physics; I worked out part of it in an earlier email to this list -- enough to see what the result looks like. Anyone with time on their hands and an understanding of x = (1/2)at^2 should be able to carry it through to the bottom. The result may not jibe with intuition, so I found it a worthwhile exercise to at least start. The "hesitation" at each floor before it gave way should have been miniscule, simply because as the mass falls, the next floor it hits will either break away at (or before) the moment of maximum stress, /or/, if it survives the moment of maximum stress, it won't break and the collapse will stop at that floor, because after the initial shock the stress on the supports declines. If the maximum stress doesn't break it, smaller stresses won't either. The moment of maximum stress comes when the shock wave from the impacting mass reaches the supports, which is essentially instantaneous: the shock wave travels through the material of the floor at the speed of sound, and it doesn't have very far to go. So, again, whether the demolition was controlled or uncontrolled, caused by an airplane, thermite, a nuclear bomb, or the Tooth Fairy, the fall speed should have been very much like what we see in the videos. Something else worth pointing out: WE CAN'T SEE THE COLLAPSE in the video. We can see the cloud coming out of the building, which shows where all the windows have blown out. But, the floors were falling /inside/ the building, and we can't see them fall -- we can only see the results of the fall. It is quite conceivable that the falling mass inside the building actually "leads" the cloud and flying debris we see on the outside of the building by several floors. > > Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 07:52:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RFq2xL013452; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:52:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RFq0kB013428; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:52:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:52:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SqFqXWTAyhMobjCb1F4QbFq+nF3So6rpeyO+9B0eg5XfsdrGg2usU/rLeuDGWrepSZWgBPnwdLd+Ds98ojeMoxJtY2bWe2tNLoXK/VPFBRLcjx186OlxBrFy8NeYBk8uYNeMCtJqcnZZoVKrql/fuoe+GRbn9Dd9bHuOQ11EuLk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Jd450+3hSzjRhzgmyNWHfwY2zXPAvvm30FCmVm3g7h/KfeCGE8/ZQOHOZlVOS6e89w21P72/Kpq/4OjWN1q7jEq9Kq3yak1wT/medXyhbQlmF56plOypRrnsGLPMdPi4yyrfSdhOcxfmVBjO01WltIOYFzCtrHzHaDIqjG6oSio= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:51:58 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? In-Reply-To: <45E44F34.1040003@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9259723.1172579270334.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <001701c75a6f$0333e1f0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44F34.1040003@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73232 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: this is not true. we have footage that shows the collapse of the inside of the building for the first few seconds, and arial footage showing it from the inside. On 2/27/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Nick Palmer wrote: > > I do not think they went down in freefall, after a few seconds the rate > > looks like it nearly stabilises as the resistance from the undamaged > > structure below just about cancels the acceleration of the mass above - > > I suspect this figure of 9 or 10 seconds need to be examined from the > > videos and the "free fall time" needs to recalculated... > > If it "pancaked" down, no matter what the cause, it should have fallen > at nearly free-fall speed. By "nearly" I mean within a second or so, > top to bottom. This is simple physics; I worked out part of it in an > earlier email to this list -- enough to see what the result looks like. > Anyone with time on their hands and an understanding of x = (1/2)at^2 > should be able to carry it through to the bottom. The result may not > jibe with intuition, so I found it a worthwhile exercise to at least start. > > The "hesitation" at each floor before it gave way should have been > miniscule, simply because as the mass falls, the next floor it hits will > either break away at (or before) the moment of maximum stress, /or/, if > it survives the moment of maximum stress, it won't break and the > collapse will stop at that floor, because after the initial shock the > stress on the supports declines. If the maximum stress doesn't break > it, smaller stresses won't either. The moment of maximum stress comes > when the shock wave from the impacting mass reaches the supports, which > is essentially instantaneous: the shock wave travels through the > material of the floor at the speed of sound, and it doesn't have very > far to go. > > So, again, whether the demolition was controlled or uncontrolled, caused > by an airplane, thermite, a nuclear bomb, or the Tooth Fairy, the fall > speed should have been very much like what we see in the videos. > > Something else worth pointing out: WE CAN'T SEE THE COLLAPSE in the > video. We can see the cloud coming out of the building, which shows > where all the windows have blown out. But, the floors were falling > /inside/ the building, and we can't see them fall -- we can only see the > results of the fall. It is quite conceivable that the falling mass > inside the building actually "leads" the cloud and flying debris we see > on the outside of the building by several floors. > > > > > > Nick Palmer > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 08:12:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RGC2P1021810; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:12:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RGC0Wq021794; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:12:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:12:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:11:57 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_71a8540d143150740b3cf1b8cd45e5ed" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070227161157.14D60DA624@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6XaavC.A.YUF.QhF5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73233 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? Status: O X-Status: --=_71a8540d143150740b3cf1b8cd45e5ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is interesting that many can not seem rid themselves of a nagging suspicion that explosives had to have been strategically placed (in advance) on the specific WTC floors that the passenger jets slammed into. I'm reminded of an old saying: "Sex at age 90 is like trying to shoot pool with a rope." -- quotation attributed to George Burns Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_71a8540d143150740b3cf1b8cd45e5ed Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is interesting that many can not seem rid themselves of a nagging suspic= ion that explosives had to have been strategically placed (in advance) on t= he specific WTC floors that the passenger jets slammed into.=20 I'm reminded of an old saying: "Sex at age 90 is like trying to shoot pool with a rope." -- quotation attributed to George Burns Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com
--=_71a8540d143150740b3cf1b8cd45e5ed-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 11:48:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RJlwLT031559; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:48:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RJluQt031529; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:47:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:47:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E48AE7.5090908@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:47:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Thermite ? References: <9259723.1172579270334.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <001701c75a6f$0333e1f0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44F34.1040003@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73234 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: > this is not true. we have footage that shows the collapse of the > inside of the building for the first few seconds, and arial footage > showing it from the inside. Really! I didn't realize that. Is it possible to "line up" the view from the inside and the images from the outside, and so determine where the falling floors are at each moment in the outside video? I would doubt it, as I doubt that one can see a lot of detail in the aerial view, and I very much doubt the "true inside" view lasts long enough to be of much help. But it would be very interesting if one could, in that it would help a lot with understanding what we're seeing in the external videos. > > > On 2/27/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >> >> Nick Palmer wrote: >> > I do not think they went down in freefall, after a few seconds the >> rate >> > looks like it nearly stabilises as the resistance from the undamaged >> > structure below just about cancels the acceleration of the mass above - >> > I suspect this figure of 9 or 10 seconds need to be examined from the >> > videos and the "free fall time" needs to recalculated... >> >> If it "pancaked" down, no matter what the cause, it should have fallen >> at nearly free-fall speed. By "nearly" I mean within a second or so, >> top to bottom. This is simple physics; I worked out part of it in an >> earlier email to this list -- enough to see what the result looks like. >> Anyone with time on their hands and an understanding of x = (1/2)at^2 >> should be able to carry it through to the bottom. The result may not >> jibe with intuition, so I found it a worthwhile exercise to at least >> start. >> >> The "hesitation" at each floor before it gave way should have been >> miniscule, simply because as the mass falls, the next floor it hits will >> either break away at (or before) the moment of maximum stress, /or/, if >> it survives the moment of maximum stress, it won't break and the >> collapse will stop at that floor, because after the initial shock the >> stress on the supports declines. If the maximum stress doesn't break >> it, smaller stresses won't either. The moment of maximum stress comes >> when the shock wave from the impacting mass reaches the supports, which >> is essentially instantaneous: the shock wave travels through the >> material of the floor at the speed of sound, and it doesn't have very >> far to go. >> >> So, again, whether the demolition was controlled or uncontrolled, caused >> by an airplane, thermite, a nuclear bomb, or the Tooth Fairy, the fall >> speed should have been very much like what we see in the videos. >> >> Something else worth pointing out: WE CAN'T SEE THE COLLAPSE in the >> video. We can see the cloud coming out of the building, which shows >> where all the windows have blown out. But, the floors were falling >> /inside/ the building, and we can't see them fall -- we can only see the >> results of the fall. It is quite conceivable that the falling mass >> inside the building actually "leads" the cloud and flying debris we see >> on the outside of the building by several floors. >> >> >> > >> > Nick Palmer >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 13:56:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RLu1CC030399; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:56:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RLtxL6030380; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:55:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:55:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E4A8EB.1090501@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:55:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73235 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > There's a specific experiment that the late E.V. Gray performed that is > fascinating --> > > > Quote, > --- > In the workshop, a 6-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires ran > from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to Gray's > discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, each > weighing a pound and a quarter. > > The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different > form of electrical current --- a powerful but "cold" form of the energy. > > As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two > magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to > make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the magnets > would get extremely hot." > > Fritz Lens activated the battery. But what does this mean? "Activated" it in what sense? I don't understand how the word "activated" is being used here. > A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts. 3,000 volts across _what_? If the battery had just that moment been connected to the magnets, as the phrase "...activated the battery" might seem to imply, then this makes no sense -- where's the "3,000 volts" coming from? When you first connect a battery across an electromagnet, assuming you use short hookup wires, you usually see the voltage ramp up to the battery voltage, nothing more (if there's arcing and/or contact bounce when the switch closes it may produce more interesting results, of course). And when you /disconnect/ it you get wild transients that an analog voltmeter (with a physical needle) typically can't display in any useful fashion. So, again, 3,000 volts across _what_? > Gray threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. If he disconnected the battery when it was connected to a high-inductance coil, and didn't have a capacitor wired across the switch, that would make sense. I'd expect some sparks, too, if he used a knife switch. > The top magnet > flew off with a powerful force. OK, I don't know the arrangement he used, but this sounds like something you can reasonably do with clever placement of the magnets. > Richard Hackenberger caught it with his > bare hands. So what? How long had the battery been connected for? A few seconds? Then all parts of the system should have been pretty cool. Or was it connected for 30 minutes? or what? And, for that matter, was any current actually going through the part which flew off? > What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of > electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. I doubt that a lot. > The fact that > Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of > that. No, it's not -- by itself it's not evidence of anything. It's just a very sloppy piece of low-grade calorimetry, with no control, no calibration, and consequently no reason to expect any particular result. > --- > > > Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? > Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. I > firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient > temperature. > > Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic material > were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging > across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How were the > electromagnets situated? > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 15:04:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RN4SAL031027; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:04:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RN4QKA031018; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:04:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:04:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=dsg+eirezmEMSM2iUSvokynlWV+SmT1QXe6ODay4nUmyzYoAGMcwZmdxqw26KiIvaBslm04N/siz9Q3Sv5HBIxeyXaRhayOxw5aG3B3+tWGPmZTQmdyuPx9XeqISaBeRTpT1A9YfOXG6VuJeSHjPTwaJ7OUEB4XVJu7m2jNWta0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=AMp0qEHe9RgssvDEWu1daxZCqG9iwOLQqih/fgMZeNx+Lwnyn3frQe09d1HqBvU3MPO1L+ASyT9vt+KJXMlSDG2NL0XTuPpseYWAkgv/t1DAjn3JKkVzEggPZHqL2TFiM44v/ZKV6A/CawvXyUZqc7xfL42KvrQNS6C29hX+c50= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:04:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1RN4PcX030997 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73236 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FE Utility Impact Status: O X-Status: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/renew05/renewable.html Net Metering Statutes – Net metering allows electric utility customers to install grid-connected renewable energy systems on their property and get credit for the amount of excess electricity the systems produce. Thirty-five States and the District of Columbia had State-wide net metering statutes in 2004. EPACT 2005 requires electric utilities, nationwide, to offer their customers net metering service upon request by 2008. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 15:15:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1RNF0QQ003584; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:15:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1RNEvNd003505; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:14:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:14:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <316901c75ac5$15624f50$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:14:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1RNEsHi003428 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73237 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: FE Utility Impact Status: O X-Status: An opportunity for OU device inventors to become rich without even having to reveal their secrets ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 12:04 AM Subject: [Vo]: FE Utility Impact > http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/renew05/renewable.html > > Net Metering Statutes – Net metering allows electric utility customers > to install grid-connected renewable energy systems on their property > and get credit for the amount of excess electricity the systems > produce. Thirty-five States and the District of Columbia had > State-wide net metering statutes in 2004. EPACT 2005 requires electric > utilities, nationwide, to offer their customers net metering service > upon request by 2008. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 16:04:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1S04DLP026992; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:04:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1S048kn026899; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:04:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:04:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:03:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73238 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote:- < http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm >> Well, I read this webpage. Maybe you misunderstand. When they say <> you are taking this to mean that the noise voltage is generated solely by the temperature of the resistor whether or not there is a current flow and this is what the equation seems to suggest; however, this is a sound engineer's equation, not a physicist's. I think it means that if the resistor is ACTUALLY resisting current, then the noise voltage is dependent upon temperature and the "shot noise" depends upon the current. I put it to you that when there is no current though the resistor, there is no electrical noise at all. Still no free lunch. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 20:32:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1S4WMCA001554; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:32:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1S4WKcC001542; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:32:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:32:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E505CF.2080502@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:32:15 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <83giXC.A.-X.UXQ5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73239 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: I've always gotten a kick out of doing things with "found" materials, and adapting cheap stuff and simple (i.e., lazy) approaches to do the job of fancier equipment (oscilloscopes aside, obviously -- I never found a plausible substitute for one of those). Unfortunately, a consequence is that I tend to cut corners where it would have been better not to do so. I thought folks on the list might be amused by a few tidbits illustrating what happens when a math guy fiddles with electronics. So, the main point here is that I finally put together an electrophorus (it really _is_ insulated, but the insulator is clear packing tape, which is kind of invisible in the photograph): http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/electrophorus-1.jpg Unfortunately I cut too many corners and it doesn't work as anticipated -- the clear packing tape I substituted for a sheet of polyethylene in the plans refuses to take a charge when rubbed with anything I own, so if I just touch the pan and then lift the top part, nothing happens. However, it still makes a dandy variable capacitor; it's around 300 pF when together (determined from discharge curve through a 100K resistor), presumably falling to zip when the pan is lifted (haven't actually measured it in that configuration). So........ I tried charging it up to about 1500 volts, disconnecting the "power supply" (quotes explained below), and /then/ lifting the pan by the handle. Bingo! Got a spark roughly a quarter inch long. Not spectacular, but at least it demonstrates the "varying potential" effect: separate the plates while keeping the charge constant, and the voltage goes up, just as it's supposed to do. (And then I got distracted with tinsel experiments and didn't pursue the electrophorus -- such is the lot of a dilettant ...) The 1500 volt "power supply" is worth a word or two, also; it's home brew, stepped up from 18 volts (originally conceived to run on transistor radio batteries, but in practice driven from another DC supply). I originally planned to cobble up something along the lines of a single-coil flyback rig, until I realized the gutsiest transistor I own can only withstand 140 volts; if anything significant flew back from the coil the transistor would fly away. So, I fell back on Plan 2, and tried using a custom-built monofilar-wound transformer with laminated carbon steel core: http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/wire_wrap_coil_1.jpg The green stuff is about 2 dozen turns of hookup wire. The yellow and black spools are exactly what they say on the label, with some leads soldered to the "inside" ends which stuck out just far enough from a small hole in the middle of each spool to make that possible. The two (partly used) spools alone, wired back to back and placed one on top of the other, without the penknife, are about 0.08 henries (measured via discharge curve across a resistor), and almost exactly 100 ohms resistance. Didn't measure the inductance with the penknife in place, and in fact it only helps the transformer function when partially inserted. Since I was just holding it in that position by hand, that got old fast, so I dispensed with the penknife in the "final design", and went with straight air core. The actual HV "power supply" consisted of a square wave generator running at about 50 kHz feeding the primary, and one rung of a "ladder"-type voltage multiplier on the secondary using 1kV diodes (1N4007's) and some 100 pF resistors: http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/kv_supply_1.jpg The basic 18v DC supply is also partly visible in the background of that shot, hiding behind the computer monitor; it's also home brew but a far more respectable design than the HV jobbie... The red and black twisted pair visible in the middle ground is my home brew "100x scope probe", and it doesn't work very well but at least it keeps me from accidentally blowing the front end off the scope when looking at 1500 volts. I'd have gone for more multiplier stages (and hence more volts) but I couldn't find any more 1kV capacitors in the basement (and I need 2kV caps, anyway -- each ladder stage can apparently hit about 1.5 kV). I have the makings for a couple Leyden jars here (i.e., empty butter containers and some aluminum foil) but the easy way to make the "inside" plate uses a liquid electrolyte and I'm hesitant about containers filled with conductive liquids in this very cramped home office. (I'll have more to say about HV supplies in a later post -- I seem to have some "over unity" diodes here and I've been going nuts trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong...) ******************************* Once I had the HV supply in hand, tinsel experiments seemed called for. A kilovolt is apparently enough to get a piece of tinsel very interested in another electrode. That's fun, of course, but it also brought to mind the question as to whether a dielectric really does block an E field. Could I try that experiment? Answer: No, not quite.... the dielectrics I could bring to bear (primarily empty butter dishes) turned out to have their own, permanent charges along for the ride, and their permanent fields totally swamped my little kilovolt field. The tinsel just went nuts over the butter dish... sigh. ******************************* OK enough of that. At some point I decided I wanted some real sparks. One of my plans is to home-brew a Tesla coil, but not today (no magnet wire in the house, for one thing). However, in the course of packing before we moved I did run across an old Allison high performance coil I got for a long-gone car, long long ago, and never got around to installing. I also happened to have an old spark generator I had built, which was intended to drive an ignition coil, but it never worked very well, possibly because the coil I originally used it with was NG to start with (it was a discard from the tuneup of some car or other, years gone by). The "sparker" used a square wave oscillator and voltage multiplier (diode/capacitor ladder) to step 18 volts up to between 65 and 70 and then discharge it through the primary on the coil. Some debugging with the new scope (storage scopes are magic, really!) revealed a number of problems, starting with the fact that I had much too much capacitance in the final stage and all it was doing was making the power supply hot (or killing the batteries -- this actually started life as a battery based gadget). A snapshot of the nearly final version, with outboard power supply used in place of batteries (which run down kind of fast): http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/spark_generator_1.jpg The blue tweak pot adjusts the spark frequency. Anyhow, after a bit of fixing, it produced some reasonably satisfactory results. Still no tesla coil, not by a lot; probably not even the 60,000 volts for 3 mS which are claimed in large letters on the coil's side. But based on spark length it appears to be in the neighborhood of 35,000 volts (assuming 30,000 volts per centimeter) and based on a look at the hash coming back on the primary side, it appears I'm getting a solid millisecond of arc. Here are a couple short clips: http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/mvi_0780.avi http://www.physicsinsights.org/images/mvi_0781.avi Whatever, it's all fun, even if I never really learn anything new from any of it... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 20:36:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1S4akW7005874; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:36:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1S4ai19005858; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:36:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:36:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Qk9APzFvafw4Pd0o/NqiHL1QGGooifmjs78tQttqAR7dUdNyUGQsi6w1g1YepfRgySxB2oV3EtHUufZYoycoKmRgTHRgEOnkNesceTdqsjysFQMaKt0b7ymSGB1nAQF8fFE36QRGFxm3XWzUNmGh9LYPyVGcOSGUwQpe3ZJrt30= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Gtl01ogsmH8Id4J9znogadna0LlnJeh28YaY6bagKY7aza1ER0gn2A19UKGniZ3XN3nSnkR30KJb9No1hX7HzKCemFJVLjqcKy4wLU2OD4PwWyTI0ZMWsh1L85nrCsz7J42C8GqQygfdTbzrmCn4WOPgaD1K6iNSEYv6Qj4+mgQ= Message-ID: <538fa8f10702272036r7aa6bdc9rb7bb7afa37adee69@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:36:38 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment In-Reply-To: <45E4A8EB.1090501@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30330_10838410.1172637398297" References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> <45E4A8EB.1090501@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73240 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30330_10838410.1172637398297 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i recommend hunting down this.. it used to be on googlevideo but KeelyNet convergence people, or peter lindemann, got it removed, which is a right shame. KeelyNet 2001 video: Norman Wootan about The History of The E.V.Gray Motor http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/store/index.html The truth is finally revealed. The mystery about Ed Gray's EMA motors is finally over. With two recovered EMA motor prototypes on stage at the KeelyNet Conference in June 2001, Norman Wootan discusses every design feature possible. Every single way the real motors deviate from the designs revealed in Gray's Patent are discussed in detail. Now you can see with your own eyes how it was really done. This video is a must for serious researchers wanting to convert Radiant Energy into mechanical power. A great companion piece to "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" by Dr. Lindemann (book or video) where the EMA power supply is discussed. (2 hrs.) http://dtshop.net/keelynet/index.tam *Inside the EV Gray motors - ** by Norman Wootan...presents an inside look at two of the original EV Gray motors as shown at the KeelyNet Convergence 2001 conference in Dallas, Texas. Norman goes into great detail about the design and construction of the motors, with closeups of each component and an explanation of how they worked. Of particular interest are the coil construction details and how the magnetic repeller field was biased to ensure the motor would spin in a preferred direction at startup. Other details include the firing patterns used by Gray to develop the optimum amount of repulsion, air cooling and other features unique to Gray's research. One of the motors is the original machined Teflon version, the other is 1 of the 5 metal production models built by Gray in Arlington, TX from 1985-1990.* On 27/02/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of > > electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. > I doubt that a lot. > > > The fact that > > Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of > > that. > > No, it's not -- by itself it's not evidence of anything. It's just a > very sloppy piece of low-grade calorimetry, with no control, no > calibration, and consequently no reason to expect any particular result. > > > > --- > > > > > > Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? > > Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. I > > firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient > > temperature. > > > > Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic material > > were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging > > across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How were the > > electromagnets situated? > > > > > > Regards, > > Paul Lowrance > > > > ------=_Part_30330_10838410.1172637398297 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i recommend hunting down this.. it used to be on googlevideo but KeelyNet convergence people, or peter lindemann, got it removed, which is a right shame.

KeelyNet 2001 video: Norman Wootan  about The History of The E.V.Gray Motor

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/store/index.html
The truth is finally revealed. The mystery about Ed Gray's EMA motors is finally over. With two recovered EMA motor prototypes on stage at the KeelyNet Conference in June 2001, Norman Wootan discusses every design feature possible. Every single way the real motors deviate from the designs revealed in Gray's Patent are discussed in detail. Now you can see with your own eyes how it was really done. This video is a must for serious researchers wanting to convert Radiant Energy into mechanical power. A great companion piece to "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" by Dr. Lindemann (book or video) where the EMA power supply is discussed. (2 hrs.)


http://dtshop.net/keelynet/index.tam

Inside the EV Gray motors - by Norman Wootan...presents an inside look at two of the original EV Gray motors as shown at the KeelyNet Convergence 2001 conference in Dallas, Texas. Norman goes into great detail about the design and construction of the motors, with closeups of each component and an explanation of how they worked. Of particular interest are the coil construction details and how the magnetic repeller field was biased to ensure the motor would spin in a preferred direction at startup. Other details include the firing patterns used by Gray to develop the optimum amount of repulsion, air cooling and other features unique to Gray's research. One of the motors is the original machined Teflon version, the other is 1 of the 5 metal production models built by Gray in Arlington, TX from 1985-1990.





On 27/02/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
> What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of
> electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy.
I doubt that a lot.

> The fact that
> Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of
> that.

No, it's not -- by itself it's not evidence of anything.  It's just a
very sloppy piece of low-grade calorimetry, with no control, no
calibration, and consequently no reason to expect any particular result.


> ---
>
>
> Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment?
> Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. I
> firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient
> temperature.
>
> Are there any photos of this experiment?  What type of magnetic material
> were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging
> across the electromagnets or was there a circuit?  How were the
> electromagnets situated?
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>


------=_Part_30330_10838410.1172637398297-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 20:39:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1S4dY3W007398; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:39:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1S4dWpP007369; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:39:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:39:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E5077C.4000907@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:39:24 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <45E505CF.2080502@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E505CF.2080502@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0kGxK.A.BzB.EeQ5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73241 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Crud, now the "subject disease" is biting me! This was supposed to be titled: "Some Small Sparks" My BCC'd copy had the subject intact, so it's clearly something at the Vortex mail server end of things. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 01:06:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1S96Hf2026753; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:06:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1S96EfQ026736; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:06:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:06:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ZaduWJwZFcB1LayyibhgDznF73jcyiDoLK/iJ85jqLS4SwSuK3MAxXEy1Tfl2xkXHxStn2pCS9XKp9sAg2BsxhI2HEZr54oZlehof+MLZ3dX8Y9PTxYGaDeS/DIuar3ykVE5Anw6bUXNbt+gfjl/N3uaYkiIaVne1WB9gK74bkA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qDOYqvWr7rsQOKTZQBUVUvhtTsX9GANGI+6woxTQ+MAaOjKPXhJON1Y9QsfXgQlhgZGYQtLkXmJxxIVLdcV5jDD+46p9aZCeNAod6RFXbCP5kNSbJ25Am0wDerIhMNiV8dBas+UuAQ9jAHwCpPrZFytXlO2ZkpoBX1zDpfTbzFs= Message-ID: <538fa8f10702280106w7b9f0d67hdff75a438d04fcf3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:06:03 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10702272036r7aa6bdc9rb7bb7afa37adee69@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_33287_9041601.1172653563514" References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> <45E4A8EB.1090501@pobox.com> <538fa8f10702272036r7aa6bdc9rb7bb7afa37adee69@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73242 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_33287_9041601.1172653563514 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.gn0sis.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,33/func,showcat/catid,12/ also seems to have at least some work on EVGray. and why wouldnt norman wootan answer questions regards evgray? On 28/02/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > i recommend hunting down this.. it used to be on googlevideo but KeelyNet > convergence people, or peter lindemann, got it removed, which is a right > shame. > > KeelyNet 2001 video: Norman Wootan about The History of The E.V.GrayMotor > > http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/store/index.html > The truth is finally revealed. The mystery about Ed Gray's EMA motors is > finally over. With two recovered EMA motor prototypes on stage at the > KeelyNet Conference in June 2001, Norman Wootan discusses every design > feature possible. Every single way the real motors deviate from the designs > revealed in Gray's Patent are discussed in detail. Now you can see with your > own eyes how it was really done. This video is a must for serious > researchers wanting to convert Radiant Energy into mechanical power. A great > companion piece to "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" by Dr. > Lindemann (book or video) where the EMA power supply is discussed. (2 hrs.) > > > http://dtshop.net/keelynet/index.tam > > *Inside the EV Gray motors - ** by Norman Wootan...presents an inside look > at two of the original EV Gray motors as shown at the KeelyNet Convergence > 2001 conference in Dallas, Texas. Norman goes into great detail about the > design and construction of the motors, with closeups of each component and > an explanation of how they worked. Of particular interest are the coil > construction details and how the magnetic repeller field was biased to > ensure the motor would spin in a preferred direction at startup. Other > details include the firing patterns used by Gray to develop the optimum > amount of repulsion, air cooling and other features unique to Gray's > research. One of the motors is the original machined Teflon version, the > other is 1 of the 5 metal production models built by Gray in Arlington, TX > from 1985-1990.* > > > > > On 27/02/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of > > > electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. > > I doubt that a lot. > > > > > The fact that > > > Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough > > of > > > that. > > > > No, it's not -- by itself it's not evidence of anything. It's just a > > very sloppy piece of low-grade calorimetry, with no control, no > > calibration, and consequently no reason to expect any particular result. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? > > > Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. > > I > > > firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient > > > temperature. > > > > > > Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic > > material > > > were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging > > > across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How were the > > > electromagnets situated? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_33287_9041601.1172653563514 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.gn0sis.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,33/func,showcat/catid,12/
also seems to have at least some work on EVGray. and why wouldnt norman wootan answer questions regards evgray?

On 28/02/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
i recommend hunting down this.. it used to be on googlevideo but KeelyNet convergence people, or peter lindemann, got it removed, which is a right shame.

KeelyNet 2001 video: Norman Wootan  about The History of The E.V.Gray Motor

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/store/index.html
The truth is finally revealed. The mystery about Ed Gray's EMA motors is finally over. With two recovered EMA motor prototypes on stage at the KeelyNet Conference in June 2001, Norman Wootan discusses every design feature possible. Every single way the real motors deviate from the designs revealed in Gray's Patent are discussed in detail. Now you can see with your own eyes how it was really done. This video is a must for serious researchers wanting to convert Radiant Energy into mechanical power. A great companion piece to "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" by Dr. Lindemann (book or video) where the EMA power supply is discussed. (2 hrs.)


http://dtshop.net/keelynet/index.tam

Inside the EV Gray motors - by Norman Wootan...presents an inside look at two of the original EV Gray motors as shown at the KeelyNet Convergence 2001 conference in Dallas, Texas. Norman goes into great detail about the design and construction of the motors, with closeups of each component and an explanation of how they worked. Of particular interest are the coil construction details and how the magnetic repeller field was biased to ensure the motor would spin in a preferred direction at startup. Other details include the firing patterns used by Gray to develop the optimum amount of repulsion, air cooling and other features unique to Gray's research. One of the motors is the original machined Teflon version, the other is 1 of the 5 metal production models built by Gray in Arlington, TX from 1985-1990.





On 27/02/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
> What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of
> electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy.
I doubt that a lot.

> The fact that
> Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of
> that.

No, it's not -- by itself it's not evidence of anything.  It's just a
very sloppy piece of low-grade calorimetry, with no control, no
calibration, and consequently no reason to expect any particular result.


> ---
>
>
> Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment?
> Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. I
> firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient
> temperature.
>
> Are there any photos of this experiment?  What type of magnetic material
> were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging
> across the electromagnets or was there a circuit?  How were the
> electromagnets situated?
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>



------=_Part_33287_9041601.1172653563514-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 06:15:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SEFDg1017634; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:15:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SEFAgp017617; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:15:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gBMeemdr1LpabXlGhVarkHAAXtUYtR3BfGZsnpeoPJvqptyhH/CvLwSPXbRDj9nfqQnaaW2L6m6HxNOkW5kq/3nxsT5d03X6JbkJ8T5EUiOtxZknQXGGiFmYOvACYSHN12+2e1+n5PeYHLXrnBP0LrwN5FTMa7OqU1wwCE1Nc0E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lVA7KPyn5FscpZRHXB+NhHAwvyuqH7g9Q+WduA4NsCJ/OWqY+uFPs9iun+raUO37VzOPd05pM6XFDIX/mcV3lSSXn/8aUWOduVIV+BW1CqJLmS6C47ESOu6NIHwXbJZCIqnOCzVhbmFyk/Tb3wzOwJz6YO7idjqDV31RCxGxtkE= Message-ID: <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:14:51 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73243 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Paul wrote:- > < > > http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm >> > > Well, I read this webpage. Maybe you misunderstand. When they say > > < Vt = SQRT(4kTBR) > > where: > > Vt = the rms noise voltage > k = Boltzmann's constant > T = temperature(Kelvin) > B = noise bandwidth > R = resistance >> > > you are taking this to mean that the noise voltage is generated solely > by the temperature of the resistor whether or not there is a current > flow and this is what the equation seems to suggest; however, this is a > sound engineer's equation, not a physicist's. I think it means that if > the resistor is ACTUALLY resisting current, then the noise voltage is > dependent upon temperature and the "shot noise" depends upon the > current. I put it to you that when there is no current though the > resistor, there is no electrical noise at all. Still no free lunch. I will bet you ***any*** amount of money you are wrong, that thermal noise does indeed generate a voltage noise without applying any external voltage to generate current. Hopefully that will put an end to this silly conversation. :-) Any *real* EE or physicists knows for fact thermal noise generates voltage noise due to thermal vibrations. If you want to see thermal noise then get a low noise amp and connect it to a large resistor. There is free lunch for *intelligent* thinking beings. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 06:32:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SEVlha029116; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:31:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SEVkfq029099; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:31:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:31:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E5924D.90305@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:31:41 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73244 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Nick Palmer wrote: > > Paul wrote:- > > < > > > > http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm >> > > > > Well, I read this webpage. Maybe you misunderstand. When they say > > > > < > Vt = SQRT(4kTBR) I see no term for the current in this expression. > > > > where: > > > > Vt = the rms noise voltage > > k = Boltzmann's constant > > T = temperature(Kelvin) > > B = noise bandwidth > > R = resistance >> > > > > you are taking this to mean that the noise voltage is generated solely > > by the temperature of the resistor whether or not there is a current > > flow and this is what the equation seems to suggest; however, this is a > > sound engineer's equation, not a physicist's. I think it means that if > > the resistor is ACTUALLY resisting current, then the noise voltage is > > dependent upon temperature and the "shot noise" "shot noise" isn't what Paul is talking about. > > depends upon the > > current. I put it to you that when there is no current though the > > resistor, there is no electrical noise at all. Still no free lunch. > > > I will bet you ***any*** amount of money you are wrong, that thermal > noise does indeed generate a voltage noise without applying any external > voltage to generate current. Hopefully that will put an end to this > silly conversation. :-) Any *real* EE or physicists knows for fact > thermal noise generates voltage noise due to thermal vibrations. > > If you want to see thermal noise then get a low noise amp and connect it > to a large resistor. > > There is free lunch for *intelligent* thinking beings. :-) Apples to oranges in this conversation. IIRC "shot noise" is indeed noise which occurs only when current is flowing, and has to do with the lumpy nature of the current coming through the resistor. OTOH there is also thermal noise which is independent of the current flowing through the resistor. In practical terms, they _sound_ very different: shot noise is more like popcorn (ticks and pops), thermal noise is more like angry snakes (a continuous hiss). At least that's what I seem to recall from what I learned back when I thought I wanted to be an EE.... > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 06:41:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SEflQ9000467; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:41:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SEfjLP000436; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:41:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rGv1EnfWS6APAb7kgLagafZ0CRTjxk0fNHF6s8E9YizQHMB0IgdQj96TlnTJoKw+wpispua+U0pCBmLzmhkW7pRbCX5/Bmbu8DTBTtVrK9ih4w/QWC516Kfrooxikg/Ezexkwabdhs+68mZGb+fb74H8840YUVYH7AxeRZisuUQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=POpQ/AcUxmMrnkQM635vmvz9FAGxb9I8646okYhG9Dqcm/0dyD+SVCwqgkMZd8F7u8NPOt9RLymvUq4M7B+Yq4BP5cj7lfKsIH2xJvTelctQ8aUt8jKQjWtitb8XYFoeRn8+fX0XiGKuFpwbQo7qesDrY9oLSRP7hXlnyNIrvQ0= Message-ID: <45E59494.4010102@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:41:24 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: E.V. Gray experiment References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <45E33556.1000706@gmail.com> <45E4A8EB.1090501@pobox.com> <538fa8f10702272036r7aa6bdc9rb7bb7afa37adee69@mail.gmail.com> <538fa8f10702280106w7b9f0d67hdff75a438d04fcf3@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10702280106w7b9f0d67hdff75a438d04fcf3@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73245 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The E.V. Gray case is strange indeed, but again my PI work revealed the "free energy" community is flooded with so-called people I refer to as "thugs" that have a hidden agenda in the "free energy" community. Anyhow, Gray demonstrated his motors ran cold. I was trying to find some detailed information regarding E. V. Grays simple experiment that demonstrated this cooling effect where he discharged stored capacitor energy across electromagnets, which repelled thereby propelling one in the air, supposedly cooling the electromagnet. Regards, Paul Lowrance Esa Ruoho wrote: > http://www.gn0sis.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,33/func,showcat/catid,12/ > > also seems to have at least some work on EVGray. and why wouldnt norman > wootan answer questions regards evgray? > > On 28/02/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: >> >> i recommend hunting down this.. it used to be on googlevideo but KeelyNet >> convergence people, or peter lindemann, got it removed, which is a right >> shame. >> >> KeelyNet 2001 video: Norman Wootan about The History of The >> E.V.GrayMotor >> >> http://www.pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/store/index.html >> >> The truth is finally revealed. The mystery about Ed Gray's EMA motors is >> finally over. With two recovered EMA motor prototypes on stage at the >> KeelyNet Conference in June 2001, Norman Wootan discusses every design >> feature possible. Every single way the real motors deviate from the >> designs >> revealed in Gray's Patent are discussed in detail. Now you can see >> with your >> own eyes how it was really done. This video is a must for serious >> researchers wanting to convert Radiant Energy into mechanical power. A >> great >> companion piece to "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" by Dr. >> Lindemann (book or video) where the EMA power supply is discussed. (2 >> hrs.) >> >> >> http://dtshop.net/keelynet/index.tam >> >> *Inside the EV Gray motors - ** by Norman Wootan...presents an inside >> look >> at two of the original EV Gray motors as shown at the KeelyNet >> Convergence >> 2001 conference in Dallas, Texas. Norman goes into great detail about the >> design and construction of the motors, with closeups of each component >> and >> an explanation of how they worked. Of particular interest are the coil >> construction details and how the magnetic repeller field was biased to >> ensure the motor would spin in a preferred direction at startup. Other >> details include the firing patterns used by Gray to develop the optimum >> amount of repulsion, air cooling and other features unique to Gray's >> research. One of the motors is the original machined Teflon version, the >> other is 1 of the 5 metal production models built by Gray in >> Arlington, TX >> from 1985-1990.* >> >> >> >> >> On 27/02/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> > >> > > What had happened was that gray had used a totally different form of >> > > electrical current --- a "cold" form of energy. >> > I doubt that a lot. >> > >> > > The fact that >> > > Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough >> > of >> > > that. >> > >> > No, it's not -- by itself it's not evidence of anything. It's just a >> > very sloppy piece of low-grade calorimetry, with no control, no >> > calibration, and consequently no reason to expect any particular >> result. >> > >> > >> > >> > > --- >> > > >> > > >> > > Does anyone know how to replicate this specific E.V. Gray experiment? >> > > Personally I would disagree this is a new form of "cold" electricity. >> > I >> > > firmly believe the energy comes from the magnetic materials ambient >> > > temperature. >> > > >> > > Are there any photos of this experiment? What type of magnetic >> > material >> > > were the electromagnets made of? Was is merely capacitors discharging >> > > across the electromagnets or was there a circuit? How were the >> > > electromagnets situated? >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 07:00:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SF0aTN012294; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:00:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SF0YXK012276; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:00:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:00:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:00:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1SF0WIg012248 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73246 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think you're right on this Paul, however you're unnecessarily rude as usual. Anyway I don't think that rectifying the hot resistor noise with a diode breaks 2LoT. Does a photovoltaic cell (which is a diode too) break 2LoT when converting the thermal energy radiated by a 6000°C black body to electricity? In both cases there is a cold source somewhere, not everything is at the temperature of the hot source. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > Nick Palmer wrote: > > Paul wrote:- > > < > > > > http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm >> > > > > Well, I read this webpage. Maybe you misunderstand. When they say > > > > < > Vt = SQRT(4kTBR) > > > > where: > > > > Vt = the rms noise voltage > > k = Boltzmann's constant > > T = temperature(Kelvin) > > B = noise bandwidth > > R = resistance >> > > > > you are taking this to mean that the noise voltage is generated solely > > by the temperature of the resistor whether or not there is a current > > flow and this is what the equation seems to suggest; however, this is a > > sound engineer's equation, not a physicist's. I think it means that if > > the resistor is ACTUALLY resisting current, then the noise voltage is > > dependent upon temperature and the "shot noise" depends upon the > > current. I put it to you that when there is no current though the > > resistor, there is no electrical noise at all. Still no free lunch. > > > I will bet you ***any*** amount of money you are wrong, that thermal noise does > indeed generate a voltage noise without applying any external voltage to > generate current. Hopefully that will put an end to this silly conversation. > :-) Any *real* EE or physicists knows for fact thermal noise generates voltage > noise due to thermal vibrations. > > If you want to see thermal noise then get a low noise amp and connect it to a > large resistor. > > There is free lunch for *intelligent* thinking beings. :-) > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 07:50:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SFohqt001727; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:50:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SFofUY001708; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:50:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:50:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WIDbUkEJMs+d49oNZyXSWOQPYreXk9Hby3kBkNqSQ0AcoEyNdETgk+ziNJUQl/FK8IGt8u/aKdP2V3sgIPfmt6t+gPiHjxPZBgG6zNnXDJNjuBqi+zqBpjmuAb48eDngu6pDl9/7OWKEqFrElefRfo0Fyx+SAWnqzn8gf0qmTS8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Fh/YIYZ8hRiZHcrqAK+Yg8o8BY5jxKYmF7GSy9eCl+NEsL9wgXtOZloStE1/NmbHblOIhC++aUoy60fpNGVc4WibSDE0YLPYpsksBQfuyX5PIGZxj9kdP8YHLuvCfw0i+V2lsqnsVOWPll4dj1aHlivTjSdHWvSYDGgcyeK9w4A= Message-ID: <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:50:23 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73247 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > I think you're right on this Paul, however you're unnecessarily rude as usual. That's just your interpretation according to a POV of common social behavior. That's a result of being programmed by society. What you refer to as rudeness I refer to as bluntness with very little attached emotions. On occasion I practice the art of tiptoeing around ones emotions, which is what society refers to as common social skills, but it requires unnecessary time and energy. > Anyway I don't think that rectifying the hot resistor noise with a diode breaks 2LoT. Does a photovoltaic cell (which is a diode too) break 2LoT when converting the thermal energy radiated by a 6000°C black body to electricity? In both cases there is a cold source somewhere, not everything is at the temperature of the hot source. Michel, once again there is a vast difference between a law and an interpretation of such a law. If you adhere to a stricter interpretation of the 2nd law then yes, the solar cell breaks such a law. At 300 K a flat 1 x 1 m^2 of material emits 203 nW of radiation between 1600 nm and 400 nm on one side. New technology allows photovoltaic cells to efficiently capture up to 1600 nm wavelengths. The 203 nW is a conservative figure since I did not include ultraviolet photovoltaic cells. How much of that 203 nW depends on the efficiency of the cell. As to how much such a cell will capture is irrelevant. Fact remains that a photovoltaic cell will convert room temperature black body radiation to DC, which could charge a capacitor. That is storing ambient temperature energy to a capacitor, which will indeed drop the net temperature in the closed system. Understandably even present leading edge photovoltaic cells are highly inefficient at such low radiation levels, but by laws of probability such a photovoltaic cell will generate DC electricity. Therefore, you'll have to ask yourself if the photovoltaic cell breaks the 2nd law in accordance to your interpretation of such a law. Here's a quote from Wikipedia, Quote, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet --- "This is against the principle of the second law of thermodynamics, which can be stated as 'It is impossible for any device that operates on a cycle to receive heat from a single reservoir and produce a net amount of work."' --- A charged capacitor is a source for usable work and can generate heat. [snip] Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 08:42:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SGgIvV015112; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:42:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SGgDjl015076; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:42:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:42:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:42:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1SGgAjM015027 Resent-Message-ID: <7YBjqC.A.crD.kDb5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73248 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > I think you're right on this Paul, however you're unnecessarily rude as usual. > > > That's just your interpretation according to a POV of common social behavior. > That's a result of being programmed by society. What you refer to as rudeness I > refer to as bluntness with very little attached emotions. On occasion I > practice the art of tiptoeing around ones emotions, which is what society refers > to as common social skills, but it requires unnecessary time and energy. Less time and energy than it takes to explain your "bluntness", plus you put people off so you may deprive yourself of potentially useful discussions and critics. > > Anyway I don't think that rectifying the hot resistor noise with a diode > breaks 2LoT. Does a photovoltaic cell (which is a diode too) break 2LoT when > converting the thermal energy radiated by a 6000°C black body to electricity? In > both cases there is a cold source somewhere, not everything is at the > temperature of the hot source. > > > Michel, once again there is a vast difference between a law and an > interpretation of such a law. If you adhere to a stricter interpretation of the > 2nd law then yes, the solar cell breaks such a law. At 300 K a flat 1 x 1 m^2 > of material emits 203 nW of radiation between 1600 nm and 400 nm on one side. > New technology allows photovoltaic cells to efficiently capture up to 1600 nm > wavelengths. The 203 nW is a conservative figure since I did not include > ultraviolet photovoltaic cells. How much of that 203 nW depends on the > efficiency of the cell. As to how much such a cell will capture is irrelevant. > Fact remains that a photovoltaic cell will convert room temperature black body > radiation to DC, which could charge a capacitor. That is storing ambient > temperature energy to a capacitor, which will indeed drop the net temperature in > the closed system. Understandably even present leading edge photovoltaic cells > are highly inefficient at such low radiation levels, but by laws of probability > such a photovoltaic cell will generate DC electricity. I believe at 99.9% that it wouldn't generate any electricity if everything is at the same temperature, in which case 2LoT wouldn't be broken, that's my point. If you believe otherwise, it's easy enough to experiment. > Therefore, you'll have to ask yourself if the photovoltaic cell breaks the 2nd > law in accordance to your interpretation of such a law. Here's a quote from > Wikipedia, > > Quote, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet > --- > "This is against the principle of the second law of thermodynamics, which can be > stated as 'It is impossible for any device that operates on a cycle to receive > heat from a single reservoir and produce a net amount of work."' > --- > > A charged capacitor is a source for usable work and can generate heat. But would the capacitor get charged, that's the question, I don't think it would. Anyway now you've got your billions of tiny diodes in parallel ready made, in the form of a single photovoltaic diode (a large area junction), and so has "Aloha Charlie", so all that's left to do is verify your theories :) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 08:54:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SGrb7x000502; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:53:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SGrZYu000491; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:53:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:53:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E5B38C.5050803@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:53:32 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73249 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: > > I think you're right on this Paul, however you're unnecessarily rude > as usual. > > > That's just your interpretation according to a POV of common social > behavior. That's a result of being programmed by society. What you > refer to as rudeness I refer to as bluntness with very little attached > emotions. On occasion I practice the art of tiptoeing around ones > emotions, which is what society refers to as common social skills, but > it requires unnecessary time and energy. > > > > > Anyway I don't think that rectifying the hot resistor noise with a > diode breaks 2LoT. Does a photovoltaic cell (which is a diode too) break > 2LoT when converting the thermal energy radiated by a 6000°C black body > to electricity? In both cases there is a cold source somewhere, not > everything is at the temperature of the hot source. You can't just hypothesize that there's a cold reservoir somewhere -- the cold must be necessary to the effect, of course, or it's irrelevant! And in the case of a resistor and diode, it's not obvious how a "cold place" is necessary. What, exactly, must be kept cool in order to obtain energy from the resistor? Is it the diode? If so, why? In general Maxwell's demon tends to run a fever in fall down on the job. In this case it's the diode which is the demon, and I'd guess it's heat in the diode that kills the effect. But I certainly can't prove it. Come to think of it, considering that a thermocouple is really only three back to back diodes with the center diode at a different temperature from the outer two, I actually feel pretty confident that it's heat in the diode which kills it in this case. (If you thought there was only 1 diode in a thermocouple, ask yourself how the dissimilar materials of the two sides of the thermocouple are attached to the rest of the system.) > > Michel, once again there is a vast difference between a law and an > interpretation of such a law. If you adhere to a stricter > interpretation of the 2nd law then yes, the solar cell breaks such a > law. > At 300 K a flat 1 x 1 m^2 of material emits 203 nW of radiation > between 1600 nm and 400 nm on one side. New technology allows > photovoltaic cells to efficiently capture up to 1600 nm wavelengths. > The 203 nW is a conservative figure since I did not include ultraviolet > photovoltaic cells. How much of that 203 nW depends on the efficiency > of the cell. As to how much such a cell will capture is irrelevant. > Fact remains that a photovoltaic cell will convert room temperature > black body radiation to DC, which could charge a capacitor. And how much electrical noise energy is the cell converting back into radiation, eh? If everything's at the same temperature you'll most likely find the amount of radiation the cell is generating, as a result of "running backwards", is equal to the amount of radiation it's converting to electricity. You should at least check that possibility carefully before you invest any money in a scheme based on this effect! ;-) > That is > storing ambient temperature energy to a capacitor, which will indeed > drop the net temperature in the closed system. Understandably even > present leading edge photovoltaic cells are highly inefficient at such > low radiation levels, but by laws of probability such a photovoltaic > cell will generate DC electricity. The "laws of probability" predict that if you wait long enough you'll fly up into the air because the molecules under your chair will all get together and bump the bottom of your seat at once. That's a violation of the second law, too, and in exactly the same sense. For that matter you can dispense with the diode, photocell, and everything _except_ the capacitor and a wire, and just wait for random jiggling of the electrons in the wire to charge the capacitor. (You may need to wait quite a while, of course.) These examples may be hard to reconcile with the second law of thermodynamics but that doesn't make them any less irrelevant. Rectifying Brownian motion has been an "impossible dream" ever since someone first noticed its existence. > Therefore, you'll have to ask yourself if the photovoltaic cell breaks > the 2nd law in accordance to your interpretation of such a law. Here's > a quote from Wikipedia, > > Quote, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet > --- > "This is against the principle of the second law of thermodynamics, > which can be stated as 'It is impossible for any device that operates on > a cycle to receive heat from a single reservoir and produce a net amount > of work."' > --- > > A charged capacitor is a source for usable work and can generate heat. > > > [snip] > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 09:00:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SH0WtO003157; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:00:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SH0V2x003141; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:00:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:00:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LL2pg6Bndw0EWct1GY63JEMAT+psmgY4NHZTxrowO1Tnr3PpGkOjamlgMN2zEgFx/1wPAqrWwXrwxFa1NFXeR+f+DNqd3TzdgmRQtUI46RKJ996W8iEQ0+W3PzDbW/job6LarcewRUnytaxt4Hys+/i2OypEJsq0WkCOGuXMP+U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HfaF9kunMIDDZMsxe0gONP7NJjR6BmgwxD13WaLRqaLuV4t375Lv3GnAn/iaCIdSmpzKxLOqXrAwCFXdX5FetxhI7TuG6lRFlWGb0mghI+NgXlwQMNtQ559EJdtL3tfHtH6Qh8lyywFODCXa33QlCTGvExB4aqUSdH1q1dNonZE= Message-ID: <45E5B51B.40908@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:00:11 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73250 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > > >>> I think you're right on this Paul, however you're unnecessarily rude as usual. >> >> That's just your interpretation according to a POV of common social behavior. >> That's a result of being programmed by society. What you refer to as rudeness I >> refer to as bluntness with very little attached emotions. On occasion I >> practice the art of tiptoeing around ones emotions, which is what society refers >> to as common social skills, but it requires unnecessary time and energy. > > Less time and energy than it takes to explain your "bluntness", plus you put people off so you may deprive yourself of potentially useful discussions and critics. 1. Your statement is entirely relative to how many discussions I have. I can assure you it's saved plenty of time, but you're digging into my savings. ;-) 2. The topic is a little more complex that just saving time. We could get into other areas such as "principle," as I am man of principle. I do not agree with going along with something because other people do it. That's giving in and playing "Follow the leader." I have no problem with people expressing emotions regardless if it is negative or positive so long as I'm not appreciably affected, but the negative stuff is not for me. Perhaps there will be world peace when people drop the emotional sensitivities and emotional attachments and practice more positive expressions such as unconditional love! [snip] Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 09:21:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SHLOFL014574; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:21:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SHLNQQ014566; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:21:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:21:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iylsfkpDGEGQ9yQRYH5oTj+zMVPK5W2ttw1wGd4lNgDMD8nhEWACjaHBzGqoIhgIujF5cH10K9IgmdDTkHjSmom0S7v2cxq2R4QOHukCfEOMg451XNm84/ph4l3uLDi5OfNsRJVHw2HGsKYxAWcqKKAP2Z2n74T+j7TBro/6l9I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hqtBiJI/Dwe8bIEjw0kypMC7HP9XHPouQOk29fMEzasIzadLCyqmJVwxQkghCPrvsrOEtOcLHiSUx+/NtVgFS6FdQFvj5eo8K/xw5Z/kYQURCc9e1Wv8FIGeLyDms/qQscag2XBbzdqYFgG0/QUw8BHaCx68IUvt4pJ0Htzv5Bw= Message-ID: <45E5BA00.2030407@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:21:04 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <45E5B38C.5050803@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5B38C.5050803@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73251 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip] > And how much electrical noise energy is the cell converting back into > radiation, eh? If everything's at the same temperature you'll most > likely find the amount of radiation the cell is generating, as a result > of "running backwards", is equal to the amount of radiation it's > converting to electricity. You should at least check that possibility > carefully before you invest any money in a scheme based on this effect! ;-) A solar cell providing work absorbs more radiation than it radiates. >> That is storing ambient temperature energy to a capacitor, which will >> indeed drop the net temperature in the closed system. Understandably >> even present leading edge photovoltaic cells are highly inefficient at >> such low radiation levels, but by laws of probability such a >> photovoltaic cell will generate DC electricity. > > The "laws of probability" predict that if you wait long enough you'll > fly up into the air because the molecules under your chair will all get > together and bump the bottom of your seat at once. That's a violation > of the second law, too, and in exactly the same sense. Indeed, but I'd bet my money on a visible light photon striking a solar cell and thus causing a charge differential on the output occurring far before your body atoms reach coherence. Again, all matter at room temperature radiates visible light photons. At 300 K one side of a flat 1 x 1 m^2 panel emits 203 nW of radiation between 1600 nm and 400 nm. Those are photons present photovoltaic cells are capable of using. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 09:39:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SHd70K024206; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:39:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SHd5Ee024183; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:39:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E5BE35.7020007@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:39:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <45E5B38C.5050803@pobox.com> <45E5BA00.2030407@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5BA00.2030407@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73252 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [snip] > > And how much electrical noise energy is the cell converting back into > > radiation, eh? If everything's at the same temperature you'll most > > likely find the amount of radiation the cell is generating, as a result > > of "running backwards", is equal to the amount of radiation it's > > converting to electricity. You should at least check that possibility > > carefully before you invest any money in a scheme based on this > effect! ;-) > > > A solar cell providing work absorbs more radiation than it radiates. Sure it does. But a solar cell operating in the visible spectrum, with a source which is at room temperature, is /not/ "providing work". (At least no solar cell I've ever heard of could "provide work" under those conditions!) It's that case which I'm addressing: Like all the other materials in the room, the solar cell is radiating. You think that unlike other materials in the room, it radiates less than it absorbs under those conditions. I'm saying I'm not so sure. Experiment can't give the answer at this time, of course -- or, rather, any real experiment using real solar cells will support my claim, not yours! > >> That is storing ambient temperature energy to a capacitor, which will > >> indeed drop the net temperature in the closed system. Understandably > >> even present leading edge photovoltaic cells are highly inefficient at > >> such low radiation levels, but by laws of probability such a > >> photovoltaic cell will generate DC electricity. > > > > The "laws of probability" predict that if you wait long enough you'll > > fly up into the air because the molecules under your chair will all get > > together and bump the bottom of your seat at once. That's a violation > > of the second law, too, and in exactly the same sense. > > > Indeed, but I'd bet my money on a visible light photon striking a solar > cell and thus causing a charge differential on the output occurring far > before your body atoms reach coherence. And I'd bet 1,000,000 times more on being able to extract useful energy from the temperature difference obtained by driving a metal stake 3 feet into the ground, at any point in the country, any time of the year, than on your ability to extract useful energy from a solar cell sealed in a room with _no_ sources more intense or warmer than the ambient and _no_ objects cooler than the ambient temperature. The point is, even if you were right that you could get _something_ out, the extracted energy is going to be insignificant, even in comparison with such trivial and generally ignored sources as geothermal energy from extremely shallow wells -- as with my 3 foot metal stake above. > > > Again, all matter at room temperature radiates visible light photons. > At 300 K one side of a flat 1 x 1 m^2 panel emits 203 nW of radiation > between 1600 nm and 400 nm. Those are photons present photovoltaic > cells are capable of using. > > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 10:17:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SIHmQg010483; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:17:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SIHk1M010471; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:17:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:17:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gJnAucQ7turJAldKFgyw/EOSUWGTw0JhA69ohOhn4+mQhOsu9kL3AzcaPjbYIzkxF8hZbCUnaDfh0Amt+MsR997cL2ug8umK6ViIYGYDzgeYJzMCy9tFKJLcmRj0WPCUrn81FeWHNfbllvNIsLhyJEB0zzYw3iVJ7QSwWRLqBYQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mirohfjO08RgfAR4yTcQnj1G7dERAe8TLtwr0I2lPAG9HsuyoxXfTrPpM054GQ9piARUIWauTXDA8fqvc/tbX/tg1Eb1mCrBlnXt1LGCGLcABBe0PJ7X+76W6WBR2t+oZ9tJ04w3UiE7yvPqgiZ2+udYXF15ot/Vfy0jqSKmKlA= Message-ID: <45E5C737.5000605@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:17:27 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <45E5B38C.5050803@pobox.com> <45E5BA00.2030407@gmail.com> <45E5BE35.7020007@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5BE35.7020007@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-VN6QC.A.jjC.Kdc5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73253 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > You think that unlike other materials in the room, it radiates less than > it absorbs under those conditions. I'm saying I'm not so sure. > Experiment can't give the answer at this time, of course -- or, rather, > any real experiment using real solar cells will support my claim, not > yours! You admit room temperature radiates visible light photons. Think about what happens when a visible light photon strikes a photovoltaic cell. >> >> That is storing ambient temperature energy to a capacitor, which >> will >> >> indeed drop the net temperature in the closed system. Understandably >> >> even present leading edge photovoltaic cells are highly >> inefficient at >> >> such low radiation levels, but by laws of probability such a >> >> photovoltaic cell will generate DC electricity. >> > >> > The "laws of probability" predict that if you wait long enough you'll >> > fly up into the air because the molecules under your chair will all >> get >> > together and bump the bottom of your seat at once. That's a violation >> > of the second law, too, and in exactly the same sense. >> >> >> Indeed, but I'd bet my money on a visible light photon striking a >> solar cell and thus causing a charge differential on the output >> occurring far before your body atoms reach coherence. > > And I'd bet 1,000,000 times more on being able to extract useful energy > from the temperature difference obtained by driving a metal stake 3 feet > into the ground, at any point in the country, any time of the year, than > on your ability to extract useful energy from a solar cell sealed in a > room with _no_ sources more intense or warmer than the ambient and _no_ > objects cooler than the ambient temperature. The goal is to get physicists to first understand the possibility. Then they can begin searching micro technology that maximizes the effect such as a micro LED's connected to a noisy resistor. From there they can design machines capable of building trillions of such units in a small space. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 10:38:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SIcLbx020288; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:38:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SIcJgU020274; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:38:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:38:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=m2Csucb5pwoJKHyRhv4NaknvRznnHKaKkqFTJcEn7U///BendBMUHDasLlwyBmlTnt5YZ8IhABU4aoLQF9F4aoCUoKVSeZouNDpbuEf8T2GJAA6t5De1I0a56mHkCuF1Fp1oNuLotwOyueCmjD22oGMQFOeareCjMXQ7vALy+9c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BWibxUVvAaW5kCU0CrerFmrsTxVggDscJ998jqVgYHPGypYPP8BBpq/Oh6OhQvVnscC6RECFjv1kg1lQeFPK2SWJgp8/I4Vj4oDGXwVh6F+DB2Hbdfxq08rOvCgGX0SsFNGXnv0FcYfX9K4sQ27KBifaXRmFPy/RAr34uru73+0= Message-ID: <45E5CC09.5010000@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:38:01 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73254 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Public question for Michel & Stephen Status: O X-Status: I have a question for both Michel Jullian and Stephen A. Lawrence. Could you please state if you are presently working on so-called "Free Energy" technology? My definition of "Free Energy" obviously would not include the initial cost or cost of maintenance. If you are working on such technology, then may I ask what type of "Free Energy" technology are you working on and where one might find your published logs or documentation that may show you are truly working on such technology? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 11:36:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SJZwH8018174; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:35:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SJZutv018158; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:35:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:35:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E5D998.6020209@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:35:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Public question for Michel & Stephen References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5CC09.5010000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5CC09.5010000@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_1ZLrD.A.qbE.cmd5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73255 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > I have a question for both Michel Jullian and Stephen A. Lawrence. > Could you please state if you are presently working on so-called "Free > Energy" technology? My definition of "Free Energy" obviously would not > include the initial cost or cost of maintenance. No, never said I was. To quote my old oboe teacher, you don't need to be a chicken to know a bad egg. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 12:26:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SKQNgA010871; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:26:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SKQL26010834; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:26:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:26:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <040901c75b76$b04f6410$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5A4BF.3040403@gmail.com> <03cb01c75b57$62e9a470$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E5CC09.5010000@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:25:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l1SKQIQb010757 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73256 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Public question for Michel & Stephen Status: O X-Status: This sounds very inquisitive, are we excommunicated if we are not? :) My involvement in new energy is non-public, and concerns principally the electrical and chemical aspects of determining a system's energy balance. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:38 PM Subject: [Vo]: Public question for Michel & Stephen >I have a question for both Michel Jullian and Stephen A. Lawrence. Could you > please state if you are presently working on so-called "Free Energy" technology? > My definition of "Free Energy" obviously would not include the initial cost or > cost of maintenance. > > If you are working on such technology, then may I ask what type of "Free Energy" > technology are you working on and where one might find your published logs or > documentation that may show you are truly working on such technology? > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 13:11:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SLAwCd026840; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:10:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SLAv2o026816; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:10:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:10:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:10:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> <2f1201c75983$e6719620$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <2f1201c75983$e6719620$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:45 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1SLAki3026752 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73257 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:55:41 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Not sure what you mean Robin, drawing welcome, I suspect it resembles a NASA design where the wire was replaced by a sharp edge. I don't see how the thrust could exceed the rate of change of momentum transmitted from the ions to the air i*d/mu though, as this experimentally verified formula already assumes zero air resistance of the lifter structure. Also beware that charges deposited on insulators interact with the discharge! My suggestion was more intuitive than scientific. I see an analogy between the thrust from a lifter and the exhaust of a jet engine. The current lifters basically hover on their exhaust (i.e. the exhaust is pointed down to generate upward thrust). By causing the air to flow down over the top surface of the Frisbee shaped lifter and up underneath the lifter, the whole body becomes a sort of airfoil, with a low pressure region above it and a higher pressure region below it. The difference in air pressure is multiplied by the entire area of the craft (Pi x r^2) to calculate the lifting force. By analogy we are adding wings to an aircraft, and pointing the exhaust rearward. To see what a difference this makes, consider the British Harrier fighter/bombers (http://www.harrier.org.uk/). > >(BTW it's Coanda, not Coander) Thanks. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 13:31:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SLUiP0012904; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:30:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SLUgso012869; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:30:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:30:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E5F47D.7070302@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:30:37 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame References: <45E3C159.1080305@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45E3C159.1080305@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73258 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>> Doing calculations in an accelerating frame makes me sick I am afraid >>> ;-) But I guess it would be the same force, since it's not a >>> ficticious one like e.g. >>> the centrifugal force. >>> > Hum; ficticious force? Isn't the force that causes water going down > drain to spin the centrifugal force?, what about tornados? Sigh... A "fictitious" force is not a "fictional" or "nonexistent" or "false" or "non-real" force. "fictitious" is a technical term, just like the phrase "imaginary" number, or even the word "force". It is typically better to call such forces "inertial" rather than "fictitious" because it avoids pointless arguments over whether or not "fictitious" forces are "real". A "fictitious" (or "inertial") force is one which appears in an accelerated reference frame, and can be made to vanish (from the analysis) by performing the analysis in an inertial frame. Such forces are also marked by the fact that they affect _all_ objects equally, independent of mass, charge, or other properties; this is quite different from the way other forces, such as electromagnetic forces, act. Non-inertial forces are generally somewhat selective as to which objects they act on. For example, a careful analysis of the motion of a rotating object, done in an inertial frame, using Newtonian mechanics, has no need of the use of "centrifugal" or "Coriolis" forces. Those forces appear in the analysis only when doing the analysis in a rotating frame. As such, they are called "inertial" forces, or more commonly "fictitious" forces. When you are actually _in_ a rotating frame, such as a car going around a corner, you naturally "think" about the situation from the POV of that frame, and in that frame, the centrifugal force -- and the Coriolis force -- are both quite real, even though they are /called/ "fictitious" forces. Here's a little demonstration of the Coriolis force: Next time you're in the car, turn on the heater or AC and arrange the air stream so it goes just past your head on one side or the other. Now, when the car turns left, note what happens; when the car turns right, note what happens. Chances are, when the car turns in one of those directions, you'll briefly find the stream of air blowing directly into your face rather than just past your head. The Coriolis force causes the moving stream of air to bend while the car is rotating. > > The emdrive also comes to mind. If it works, is that a frame based > phenomena? > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 13:44:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SLiSt8022896; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SLiRRQ022883; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:44:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2ec501c75934$75782cd0$3800a8c0@zothan> <2f1201c75983$e6719620$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:44:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l1SLiOdu022855 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73259 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:10:46 +1100: Hi, [snip] >region below it. The difference in air pressure is multiplied by the entire area >of the craft (Pi x r^2) to calculate the lifting force. By analogy we are adding >wings to an aircraft, and pointing the exhaust rearward. To see what a >difference this makes, consider the British Harrier fighter/bombers >(http://www.harrier.org.uk/). [snip] BTW, see also http://montalk.net/science/71/coanda-soliton-effect . Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 13:55:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l1SLtDpc028850; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:55:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l1SLtBYN028825; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:55:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:55:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:56:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <45E5F47D.7070302@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4_wTm.A.VCH._of5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73260 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > When you are actually _in_ a rotating frame, such as a car going around > a corner, you naturally "think" about the situation from the POV of that > frame, and in that frame, the centrifugal force -- and the Coriolis > force -- are both quite real, even though they are /called/ "fictitious" > forces. In orbit about the Earth you don't feel a centrifugal force. Inertia is now the fictitous force. I don't care what the textbooks say, inertia is a fiction except at the moment of contact. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 16:08:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2108J0D022665; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:08:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2108Hwn022649; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:08:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:08:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <044b01c75b95$b3eb3760$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E3C159.1080305@usfamily.net> <45E5F47D.7070302@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:08:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2108FMv022628 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73261 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Indeed in an inertial frame the fictitious force vanishes (from the analysis) as a force, but it also magically reappears as mass times acceleration, simply going from the left hand side to the right hand side of F=ma while changing sign, so the equations remain the same mathematically. For example if one analyses the motion of a satellite on a circular orbit in its rotating frame, the satellite is at rest i.e. the sum of the inwards gravitational force Fg and of the fictitious outwards centrifugal force mv^2/r is zero: F = m*a Fg - m*v^2/r = 0 If one now analyses the satellite's motion in the (assumed inertial) frame of the Earth, the centri_fugal_ force -mv^2/r moves to the right while changing sign to become m times the centri_petal_ acceleration +v^2/r : F = m*a Fg = m*v^2/r Same equation mathematically, so both approaches yield the same result for orbital speed as a function of radius as would be expected. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame ... > A "fictitious" (or "inertial") force is one which appears in an > accelerated reference frame, and can be made to vanish (from the > analysis) by performing the analysis in an inertial frame. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 16:12:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l210CUIi011710; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:12:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l210CREV011688; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:12:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:12:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:12:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73262 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In response to Paul and Michel and Steven I will only repeat what I wrote. Obviously you did not understand what I said. Read it again without your knee-jerk prejudices. Besides, in order do work by extracting energy from ambient heat with no heat sink, Paul's diodes would need to rectify a current. There won't be one there. <> No, there isn't. Therefore you are not intelligent, despite your self aggrandising, egotistical blustering. The free energy field is littered with the metaphorical corpses of thousands of people like you who thought they had some brilliant idea. They all came to nothing. Their ghosts are sustained by gullible or crooked people. Their ideas are those of the deluded or fraudulent. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 16:25:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l210P7Sv027834; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:25:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l210P66X027812; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:25:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:25:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=x6TWFFh3NzWGciWbhjL+4qe4KDxJ6pN1ZKRk90ReiHfyGoOD+JWV+T4nC3J7hDICvkyqtZw7q77KoCNiQH/BWkIIebERPBKHmk4VCHO7SMPXCq0NKqoSLPQU7GWDNBLyf0Iyxf7i/k9BdqzFcDKRWoxh8I1NFV0/tLVYEPKQPNM= ; X-YMail-OSG: L6cav0oVM1noPJB_.mCgnd742mScFMmmPn1KBy1K.JDNb5VN8UbtF7la2BNd2ttdOCjFdGeAXN0d7aOcnmUJ Message-ID: <45E61D5E.40501@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:25:02 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3Cqd6C.A.byG.i1h5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73263 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen! ...to paraphrase Strangelove, you can't fight in here! This is ... well not the war room, but the war-on-oil room. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 18:50:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l212oAGS027201; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:50:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l212o9S1027179; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:50:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:50:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E63F5C.5040107@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:50:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73264 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> When you are actually _in_ a rotating frame, such as a car going around >> a corner, you naturally "think" about the situation from the POV of that >> frame, and in that frame, the centrifugal force -- and the Coriolis >> force -- are both quite real, even though they are /called/ "fictitious" >> forces. > > In orbit about the Earth you don't feel a centrifugal force. Well, sure, but then it's balanced by gravity. And besides, you never "feel" a centrifugal force; you just feel the /centripetal/ force, which is the "real" one. In GR gravity is also considered to be an "inertial" force (or a "fictitious" force). It has all the same properties as other "fictitious" forces, including, most significantly, that it vanishes in a locally inertial frame. Equally significant -- and necessary, if it is to vanish in any frame -- is that gravity affects all materials equally. If any divergence between inertial and gravitational mass is ever found, however small it may be, it will be a an enormous blow to the validity of GR, because it will imply that gravity is /not/ a fictitious force, after all. > Inertia is now the fictitous force. Say, rather, that forces due entirely to the _inertia_ of an object are _inertial_ forces. Then we don't have to deal with the question of whether they're fictitious or not. > > I don't care what the textbooks say, inertia is a fiction > except at the moment of contact. But what is fiction? And, as Pilot said, what is truth? It came as a great surprise to me when I took my first serious logic class and found out that the terms "true" and "false" are merely defined, not "God given", and you get to choose your own definitions... > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 20:50:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l214o1n1008669; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:50:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l214nxvH008644; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:49:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:49:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:49:54 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5UkhTD.A._GC.2tl5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73265 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > In response to Paul and Michel and Steven I will only repeat what I > wrote. Obviously you did not understand what I said. Read it again > without your knee-jerk prejudices. If you're including me in the knee-jerk crowd who didn't understand what you wrote, I take issue with that. You asserted, among other things, that there is no thermal noise unless the resistor is carrying current, _and_ that the shot noise depends on the current. I agree about the shot noise, and I said so. However, AFAIK there _is_ thermal noise whether or not there's current, just as there's Brownian motion whether or not there's current flowing through the water, and the formula given in an earlier post, with which you did not disagree, certainly does not describe something which decreases with current. If it just _cuts_ _off_ at zero current, that would be very strange behavior indeed! The formula given was: > < Vt = SQRT(4kTBR) > > where: > > Vt = the rms noise voltage > k = Boltzmann's constant > T = temperature(Kelvin) > B = noise bandwidth > R = resistance >> Assuming the formula is correct as written, I really don't see a current term in it anywhere. As far as I can see the RHS does not depend in any way on applied voltage or current through the resistor, nor on the resistance, for that matter. And the LHS is a voltage -- _not_ a coefficient to be multiplied into the voltage applied to the resistor. If you disagree, please explain, because what you've said so far doesn't elucidate this at all. And I do not believe that the noise jumps from 0 to its "full-on value" as soon as the current goes from exactly 0 to, say, 1 fempto-pico-amp. In any case there's also thermal noise in the diode, as I believe I also pointed out (though I didn't phrase it that way), and that is surely where you should be hunting for the flaw in the design. > Besides, in order do work by > extracting energy from ambient heat with no heat sink, Paul's diodes > would need to rectify a current. There won't be one there. > > < by the temperature of the resistor whether or not there is a current > flow and this is what the equation seems to suggest; however, this is a > sound engineer's equation, not a physicist's. I think it means that if > the resistor is ACTUALLY resisting current, then the noise voltage is > dependent upon temperature and the "shot noise" depends upon the > current. I put it to you that when there is no current though the > resistor, there is no electrical noise at all. Still no free lunch. > > <> > > No, there isn't. Therefore you are not intelligent, Wrong. Paul is clearly intelligent, and so is Michel, even if both of them are occasionally rude (and no doubt occasionally wrong). Paul may very well be an autodidact rather than, say, a PhD solid state physicist, and may have some soft spots in his knowledge base in this area (as may I, and Michel, and you) but that is hardly equivalent to his being unintelligent. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 20:57:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l214v0Vl005175; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:57:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l214uvMm005162; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:56:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:56:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 1 Mar 2007 04:56:55 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l214utw2005133 Resent-Message-ID: <-_9JRB.A.mQB.Z0l5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73266 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:29:58 -0500: Hi Harry, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:11:03 -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>> The tube doesn't oscillate because the process Robin described is >>>> continuous. >>> >>> For this to be plausible the tube could never be neutral. In fact, if the >>> tube's charge were to fall below some minimum value the tube's weight will >>> cause it to drop. >>> >>> Harry >> >> As long as power is supplied, it isn't neutral. Since the mass of the tube(s) >> is >> by definition less than that of the whole lifter, as power is applied, the >> tube >> will lift first, then with application of additional power, the whole lifter >> will rise. >> > > >Yes, but how can you be certain (other than by a the "laws of physics" >argument) that the tube is not contributing a novel lifting force when the >power exceeds a certain value. I can't. I'm just explaining it as I see it. If you think I'm wrong, then build the device, and measure the lift. Then you will know for sure who's right. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:09:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2158qMu013307; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2158pYU013289; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:08:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrogen Outta Nowhere? Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:08:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20299C33C@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20299C33C@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 1 Mar 2007 05:08:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2158mv2013269 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73267 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:59:23 -0600: Hi, [snip] >I realize that completely eliminating all contamination is difficult but >if protons can be popped out of the vacuum by an arc discharge, then I >think we need >to take another look at the Steady State theory of the universe. This >could be one of those little experiments with big implications. > >http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/a_history_of_dark_matter.html An alternative explanation is that environmental Hydrinos leak into the container between the atoms of the solid where they are converted into Hydrogen by the action of energetic electrons in the arc. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:11:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l215B6hP011779; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:11:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l215B5Rc011766; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:11:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:11:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:11:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <45E63F5C.5040107@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73268 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> When you are actually _in_ a rotating frame, such as a car going around >>> a corner, you naturally "think" about the situation from the POV of that >>> frame, and in that frame, the centrifugal force -- and the Coriolis >>> force -- are both quite real, even though they are /called/ "fictitious" >>> forces. >> >> In orbit about the Earth you don't feel a centrifugal force. > > Well, sure, but then it's balanced by gravity. And besides, you never > "feel" a centrifugal force; you just feel the /centripetal/ force, which > is the "real" one. > > In GR gravity is also considered to be an "inertial" force (or a > "fictitious" force). It has all the same properties as other > "fictitious" forces, including, most significantly, that it vanishes in > a locally inertial frame. Equally significant -- and necessary, if it > is to vanish in any frame -- is that gravity affects all materials > equally. If any divergence between inertial and gravitational mass is > ever found, however small it may be, it will be a an enormous blow to > the validity of GR, because it will imply that gravity is /not/ a > fictitious force, after all. > There are probably many tacit assumptions in GR which can be tested. One that concerns me is the assumption that with increasing speed gravitational mass varies in lock step with inertial mass. In fact, I think gravitational mass decreases with increasing speed. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:13:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l215Djsc014739; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:13:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l215Di8t014724; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:13:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:13:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:14:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <45E63F5C.5040107@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73269 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> When you are actually _in_ a rotating frame, such as a car going around >>> a corner, you naturally "think" about the situation from the POV of that >>> frame, and in that frame, the centrifugal force -- and the Coriolis >>> force -- are both quite real, even though they are /called/ "fictitious" >>> forces. >> >> In orbit about the Earth you don't feel a centrifugal force. > > Well, sure, but then it's balanced by gravity. And besides, you never > "feel" a centrifugal force; you just feel the /centripetal/ force, which > is the "real" one. > > In GR gravity is also considered to be an "inertial" force (or a > "fictitious" force). It has all the same properties as other > "fictitious" forces, including, most significantly, that it vanishes in > a locally inertial frame. Equally significant -- and necessary, if it > is to vanish in any frame -- is that gravity affects all materials > equally. If any divergence between inertial and gravitational mass is > ever found, however small it may be, it will be a an enormous blow to > the validity of GR, because it will imply that gravity is /not/ a > fictitious force, after all. There are probably many tacit assumptions in GR which can be tested. One that concerns me is the assumption that with increasing speed gravitational mass varies in lock step with inertial mass. In fact, I think gravitational mass decreases with increasing speed. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:19:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l215JPCN017679; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:19:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l215JOZP017634; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:19:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:19:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <64ocu2p0u8tsfbncntvue62j4hqldm8s9d@4ax.com> References: <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.130] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 1 Mar 2007 05:19:20 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l215JK6P017542 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73270 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:49:54 -0500: Hi, [snip] >In any case there's also thermal noise in the diode, as I believe I also >pointed out (though I didn't phrase it that way), and that is surely >where you should be hunting for the flaw in the design. [snip] If you look at the voltage current curve of a diode for both positive and negative currents, then it is clearly asymmetric. That's why we use them. In short they convert AC into DC, and it doesn't matter whether the AC is a perfect sine wave or a random mess. Even the latter will result in at least some DC component. I agree with you that a diode should produce the same sort of thermal AC voltage as a resistor, however it should also rectify it's own voltage. IOW a diode connected across a capacitor should eventually charge the capacitor, if it's thermal voltage is current independent. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:45:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l215jT8G029353; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:45:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l215jTaF029348; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:45:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:45:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:46:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73271 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:29:58 -0500: > Hi Harry, > [snip] >> Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >>> In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:11:03 -0500: >>> Hi, >>> [snip] >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The tube doesn't oscillate because the process Robin described is >>>>> continuous. >>>> >>>> For this to be plausible the tube could never be neutral. In fact, if the >>>> tube's charge were to fall below some minimum value the tube's weight will >>>> cause it to drop. >>>> >>>> Harry >>> >>> As long as power is supplied, it isn't neutral. Since the mass of the >>> tube(s) >>> is >>> by definition less than that of the whole lifter, as power is applied, the >>> tube >>> will lift first, then with application of additional power, the whole lifter >>> will rise. >>> >> >> >> Yes, but how can you be certain (other than by a the "laws of physics" >> argument) that the tube is not contributing a novel lifting force when the >> power exceeds a certain value. > > I can't. I'm just explaining it as I see it. If you think I'm wrong, then > build > the device, and measure the lift. Then you will know for sure who's right. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk I thinking more along the lines...how would one test the hypothesis experimentally? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 23:57:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l217uqm2028277; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:56:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l217uodr028253; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:56:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:56:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E6872A.9040606@usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 01:56:26 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73272 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: water engine Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; As a result of the Ev Gray link I went on a wild web chase. I ended up linking to this site. It would be marvelous if it worked, but I can't help thinking about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. http://www.waterengine.com.au/How.htm --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---