From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 2 07:43:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07870; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 07:40:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 07:40:51 -0800 X-Sent: 2 Jan 2003 15:40:38 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030102095211.00b17e48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:40:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Embodied energy in houses In-Reply-To: <000901c2b127$406384e0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021230160001.026a2e30 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231132643.02098c58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231165613.02e1fba0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JoJos.0.uw1.3s55-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > I am not making excuses or inventing this stuff. It is true: houses are > > less of a problem than other structures. > > From the web (and common sense): >"Embodied energy" is the energy consumed by all of the processes >associated with the building of a home or other building, from the . . . I meant with regard to land use, pollution and erosion, not embodied energy, but embodied energy is an interesting subject. Roads also have a lot of embodied energy, and the use of a road once it is finished calls for much more energy per square meter than a house. Anyway, my point is that road use is (or should be) optional, and roads are obsolete, unlike houses. The modern alternative to using a road is to set up a video Internet link. This takes many orders of magnitude less energy and space. There is no similar alternative to living in a house. >Research by CSIRO has found that the average household contains about >1,000 GJ of energy embodied in the materials used in its construction. That can't be right! 1,000 GJ equals the energy of 23,255 kg of gasoline, or 8,264 gallons. (1 gallon = ~121 MJ.) That fuel alone would cost almost as much as the entire set of building materials used in a small house. The main material in North American houses is wood. The embodied energy in wood is biomass solar energy, which costs nothing and causes no pollution, so this energy cost is irrelevant. A typical house has 13,000 board feet of wood, weighing 12.6 short tons, hauled in 3.6 truckloads. I do not know how much fuel it takes to cut and haul this much wood, but I am sure it is nothing like 8,264 gallons, because the wood itself costs about $7,000. Wood has 16 MJ/kg embodied energy, by the way. That's 16 GJ/metric ton, or 18 GJ per short ton. Or 216 GJ per house. Coal has 27 to 30 GJ per metric ton. 1,000 GJ = 33 tons of coal; 2 or 3 times the weight of the wood. I doubt it! See: http://patzek.berkeley.edu/E11/energyconversionfactors.htm >This is equivalent to about 15 years of operational energy use. That can't be right. Average utility costs in the U.S. range from $2,200 to $3,500 per year per house, depending on location, efficiency and other factors. In 15 years, that comes to $33,000 - $52,500, which exceeds the total cost of building materials in the house by a large margin. If the embodied energy of the building materials (mostly wood) cost $33,000, they could not sell you the wood for $7,000. I do not know what the CSIRO is, but they need to check their numbers more carefully or rephrase their document. > > "Responsibility" is not the issue here. > >Personal responsibility is ALWAYS the issue. I meant we do not need to emphasize responsibility to encourage conservation. Done properly, conservation saves money without imposing a burden of inconvenience or reduced service. > The only issue. I can't expect most Americans to give up automobiltes > altogether, but fairness dictates that there should be enormous taxes on > large vehicles and large houses IMHO. Government has failed us miserably here. I agree! I do not think "enormous" taxes are needed. The government should stop subsidizing fossil fuel and waste. A combination of moderate taxes and free market pricing together should be used to charge people the true cost of gasoline, oil and coal, which comes to roughly $5 per gallon, when you factor in the environmental destruction, wasteful subsidies, war and other hidden costs. Charging $5 per gallon would solve the energy crisis overnight, and put Saddam Hussein out of business. Actually, you wouldn't want to charge $5 for the fuel itself, but for a combination of fuel, road use, factory chimney pollution, and other applications. As I have described here earlier, conservative organizations such as the Heritage Foundation advocate high-tech highway tolls, collected automatically. (That is, electronically from passing cars, to avoid delays.) The tolls can be adjusted to ration scarce resources according to market demand; i.e., to reduce delays caused by traffic jams. I am not a conservative and I disagree with many policies advocated by the Heritage Foundation, but in this we see eye to eye. When a policy has bipartisan support from people across the political spectrum, that is a good sign. I doubt the Heritage Foundation advocates research in cold fusion. In that respect and many others, we disagree. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 2 08:56:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16347; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:53:27 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20030102085241.00b07910 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:54:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: fraud at MIT? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_146547593==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"Wx87W3.0.G_3.7w65-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_146547593==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/02/national/02MISS.html "CAMBRIDGE, Mass. =97 The Massachusetts Institute of Technology is looking= =20 into accusations that its premier laboratory lied to cover up serious=20 problems with the technology at the heart of the administration's proposed= =20 antimissile defense system. The university was prodded to act by Theodore A. Postol, a tenured M.I.T.=20 physicist in security studies and a prominent critic of the antimissile=20 plan. In letters to Congress and elsewhere, Dr. Postol has said M.I.T.=20 appeared to be hiding evidence of serious flaws in the nation's main=20 antimissile weapon, a ground-based rocket meant to destroy incoming enemy=20 warheads by impact. His accusations center on a 1998 study by Lincoln=20 Laboratory, a federally financed M.I.T. research center, and have grown=20 over the years to include the institute's provost, president and corporate= =20 chairman. Dr. Postol became known as an antimissile critic after the Persian Gulf war= =20 in 1991, when he argued that contrary to Pentagon assertions Patriot=20 missiles had shot down few if any Iraqi Scud missiles. His contention, at=20 first ridiculed, in time became accepted as truth. Officials at the institute strongly deny any wrongdoing. "The bedrock principle for all research done at M.I.T. is scientific=20 integrity," officials said in a statement. "Any allegation that there has=20 been any deviation from that principle must be taken seriously, and that is= =20 what M.I.T. has done in this case." These officials dismissed Dr. Postol's accusation that they had delayed=20 acting on his accusations. Dr. Postol, who first called for an investigation 20 months ago and=20 repeated his request many times, is unsatisfied. "Potentially, this is the= =20 most serious fraud that we've seen at a great American university," he said= =20 in an interview. " Steve Krivit Los Angeles, CA USA www.newenergytimes.com www.coldfusioninfo.com --=====================_146547593==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/02/national/02MISS.html

"CAMBRIDGE, Mass. =97 The Massachusetts Institute of Technology is looking into accusations that its premier laboratory lied to cover up serious problems with the technology at the heart of the administration's proposed antimissile defense system.

The university was prodded to act by Theodore A. Postol, a tenured M.I.T. physicist in security studies and a prominent critic of the antimissile plan. In letters to Congress and elsewhere, Dr. Postol has said M.I.T. appeared to be hiding evidence of serious flaws in the nation's main antimissile weapon, a ground-based rocket meant to destroy incoming enemy warheads by impact. His accusations center on a 1998 study by Lincoln Laboratory, a federally financed M.I.T. research center, and have grown over the years to include the institute's provost, president and corporate chairman.

Dr. Postol became known as an antimissile critic after the Persian Gulf war in 1991, when he argued that contrary to Pentagon assertions Patriot missiles had shot down few if any Iraqi Scud missiles. His contention, at first ridiculed, in time became accepted as truth.

Officials at the institute strongly deny any wrongdoing.
"The bedrock principle for all research done at M.I.T. is scientific integrity," officials said in a statement. "Any allegation that there has been any deviation from that principle must be taken seriously, and that is what M.I.T. has done in this case."
These officials dismissed Dr. Postol's accusation that they had delayed acting on his accusations.

Dr. Postol, who first called for an investigation 20 months ago and repeated his request many times, is unsatisfied. "Potentially, this is the most serious fraud that we've seen at a great American university," he said in an interview. "

Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com --=====================_146547593==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 2 09:47:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15417; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:45:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 09:45:21 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Embodied energy in houses Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:02:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030102095211.00b17e48 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"KUvjg2.0.lm3.ng75-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed et al. I'm not sure about the total energy required to create a house, but an acquaintance of mine could probably tell you www.ilea.org The site has that rather peculiar north-west flavor to it, but Roel is a pretty down-to-earth guy and I'm sure they've done this sort of analysis. Check it. By the way, Jed writes: >Anyway, my point is that road use is (or should be) optional, and roads are >obsolete, unlike houses. The modern alternative to using a road is to set >up a video Internet link. This takes many orders of magnitude less energy >and space. There is no similar alternative to living in a house. Well, sure there is. I live in a brownstone shared by my landlord. Further savings can be realized by living in an apartment. The most luxurious structure I've ever spent a few days living in was a teepee, no kidding. Try it sometime (grin). K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:41 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Embodied energy in houses Jones Beene wrote: > > I am not making excuses or inventing this stuff. It is true: houses are > > less of a problem than other structures. > > From the web (and common sense): >"Embodied energy" is the energy consumed by all of the processes >associated with the building of a home or other building, from the . . . I meant with regard to land use, pollution and erosion, not embodied energy, but embodied energy is an interesting subject. Roads also have a lot of embodied energy, and the use of a road once it is finished calls for much more energy per square meter than a house. Anyway, my point is that road use is (or should be) optional, and roads are obsolete, unlike houses. The modern alternative to using a road is to set up a video Internet link. This takes many orders of magnitude less energy and space. There is no similar alternative to living in a house. >Research by CSIRO has found that the average household contains about >1,000 GJ of energy embodied in the materials used in its construction. That can't be right! 1,000 GJ equals the energy of 23,255 kg of gasoline, or 8,264 gallons. (1 gallon = ~121 MJ.) That fuel alone would cost almost as much as the entire set of building materials used in a small house. The main material in North American houses is wood. The embodied energy in wood is biomass solar energy, which costs nothing and causes no pollution, so this energy cost is irrelevant. A typical house has 13,000 board feet of wood, weighing 12.6 short tons, hauled in 3.6 truckloads. I do not know how much fuel it takes to cut and haul this much wood, but I am sure it is nothing like 8,264 gallons, because the wood itself costs about $7,000. Wood has 16 MJ/kg embodied energy, by the way. That's 16 GJ/metric ton, or 18 GJ per short ton. Or 216 GJ per house. Coal has 27 to 30 GJ per metric ton. 1,000 GJ = 33 tons of coal; 2 or 3 times the weight of the wood. I doubt it! See: http://patzek.berkeley.edu/E11/energyconversionfactors.htm >This is equivalent to about 15 years of operational energy use. That can't be right. Average utility costs in the U.S. range from $2,200 to $3,500 per year per house, depending on location, efficiency and other factors. In 15 years, that comes to $33,000 - $52,500, which exceeds the total cost of building materials in the house by a large margin. If the embodied energy of the building materials (mostly wood) cost $33,000, they could not sell you the wood for $7,000. I do not know what the CSIRO is, but they need to check their numbers more carefully or rephrase their document. > > "Responsibility" is not the issue here. > >Personal responsibility is ALWAYS the issue. I meant we do not need to emphasize responsibility to encourage conservation. Done properly, conservation saves money without imposing a burden of inconvenience or reduced service. > The only issue. I can't expect most Americans to give up automobiltes > altogether, but fairness dictates that there should be enormous taxes on > large vehicles and large houses IMHO. Government has failed us miserably here. I agree! I do not think "enormous" taxes are needed. The government should stop subsidizing fossil fuel and waste. A combination of moderate taxes and free market pricing together should be used to charge people the true cost of gasoline, oil and coal, which comes to roughly $5 per gallon, when you factor in the environmental destruction, wasteful subsidies, war and other hidden costs. Charging $5 per gallon would solve the energy crisis overnight, and put Saddam Hussein out of business. Actually, you wouldn't want to charge $5 for the fuel itself, but for a combination of fuel, road use, factory chimney pollution, and other applications. As I have described here earlier, conservative organizations such as the Heritage Foundation advocate high-tech highway tolls, collected automatically. (That is, electronically from passing cars, to avoid delays.) The tolls can be adjusted to ration scarce resources according to market demand; i.e., to reduce delays caused by traffic jams. I am not a conservative and I disagree with many policies advocated by the Heritage Foundation, but in this we see eye to eye. When a policy has bipartisan support from people across the political spectrum, that is a good sign. I doubt the Heritage Foundation advocates research in cold fusion. In that respect and many others, we disagree. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 2 10:54:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24987; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:51:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:51:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 10:49:24 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Embodied energy in houses To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000d01c2b28f$ab9dace0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021230160001.026a2e30 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231132643.02098c58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231165613.02e1fba0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030102095211.00b17e48 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA24800 Resent-Message-ID: <"DlFLR1.0.C66.8f85-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > >Research by CSIRO has found that the average household contains about > >1,000 GJ of energy embodied in the materials used in its construction. > > That can't be right! 1,000 GJ equals the energy of 23,255 kg of gasoline, > or 8,264 gallons. (1 gallon = ~121 MJ.) That fuel alone would cost almost > as much as the entire set of building materials used in a small house. Most of this research has been done in Australia, where home building materials preferences may be different than in the USA, as wood is relatively expensive, but square ft area usage per individual may be less, so I doubt if the conclusions are far different when looking at the possible saving per individual, and when evaluating certain life-style choices. See this Google cache: http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:Kxjf-RviEusC:alcor.concordia.ca/~raojw/crd/concept/concept000324.html+CSIRO+%22embodied+energy%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 The Treloar reference gives a figure for embedded energy as high as 30 years of power usage, but I doubt it would be that high in the USA - maybe closer to 15 years. BTW I don't know what assumptions you were using to try to get a fix on energy costs in dollars, as opposed to GJ but I believe that the 1,000 GJ and other conclusions of these extensive studies are correct - plus that the main energy cost in building materials is not gasoline but coal, at roughly $40 ton for large users, compared with gasoline, which at even wholesale is over $200/ ton equivalent. The cost of cement, for instance is mostly the cost of coal used to reduce limestone to lime. So you dollar estimate may be distorted by a 5:1 ratio. I suspect in a $200,000 house (way below average for California) the average embedded energy in dollars is above $25,000 and that is mostly for coal and/or natural gas. As a responsible world citizen, if I were able to cut this by 1/4 by, say, wiser choice of building materials but mostly by accepting less square footage, then the energy savings annualized per year would be fairly close to my fuel cost savings of dropping an automobile in favor of public transport - but of course that option is not open to those in rural areas, except perhaps to car-pool and drop one of the family's cars. Unfortunately, it is those rural and suburban folks who often insist on the giant SUV gas guzzlers and two, three or more cars per family and also on large personal lot sizes for their houses. I am firmly convinced in looking at human impact in the big picture, that *habitat displacement* due to housing and farming encroachment is a FAR, FAR larger problem than global warming and is far easier to control by personal choices or by legal incentive (taxation). Americans tend to ignore this basic premise, and many are even openly hostile to it because they want and demand large, even exorbitant amounts of personal space. That is why you hear all this furor over global warming (from the Cadillac liberals at the Sierra Club), and global warming itself may NOT be controllable except by draconian measures in the third world - and, moreover, may not even be bad in small doses (it has not been scientifically proven), but almost nothing comparatively is being preached about controlling exorbitant land use for housing in the USA! because, of course, most of the staff and all of the benefactors have monster houses, ranches etc. This hypocrisy is especially true for Texans in general and the Bush clan in particular...what a sorry, sorry example for personal environmental responsibility... How large is that ranch? ...doesn't that bother anyone - especially when Bush tries to shift most of the blame for ecological problems on the third world....while at the same time usurping artic wildlife refuges...absolutely disgusting! Regards, Jones This is one of the main changes that must take place in From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 2 12:00:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30699; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:57:26 -0800 X-Sent: 2 Jan 2003 19:57:15 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030102135958.03012500 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:57:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Embodied energy in houses In-Reply-To: <000d01c2b28f$ab9dace0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021230160001.026a2e30 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231132643.02098c58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231165613.02e1fba0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030102095211.00b17e48 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yym8c3.0.bV7.bc95-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >BTW I don't know what assumptions you were using to try to get a fix on >energy costs in dollars, as opposed to GJ but I believe that the 1,000 GJ >and other conclusions of these extensive studies are correct . . . I really doubt it. The costs do not begin to add up. Sometimes these extensive studies are wrong. > - plus that the main energy cost in building materials is not gasoline > but coal, at roughly $40 ton for large users, compared with gasoline, > which at even wholesale is over $200/ ton equivalent. What do you mean, equivalent? Cost per MJ? Oil has 45 MJ/kg versus 20 to 30 MJ/kg for various grades of coal. Anyway, in North America most of the mass of building material is wood, and I think oil is the main fuel used to process and transport wood. >The cost of cement, for instance is mostly the cost of coal used to reduce >limestone to lime. The cement to build a house is a lot cheaper than the wood and other materials. (At least it was in my house. I remodeled and built half of it.) > So you dollar estimate may be distorted by a 5:1 ratio. I don't think so. In any case, oil is the main fuel when making wood structures. (Coal may be the main fuel for ferroconcrete.) >I suspect in a $200,000 house (way below average for California) the >average embedded energy in dollars is above $25,000 and that is mostly for >coal and/or natural gas. That can't be! How big a house do you have in mind? The entire cost for building a house in Atlanta is $80 per square foot. I just asked an Allstate agent. That is what they calculate for fire insurance. That is the full replacement building cost including labor, materials, carpets, cabinets, but not electrical appliances. (70% of your total coverage should be to replace the goods in the house, such as appliances, furniture and so on.) Years ago I built 800 sq. ft. with ~$20,000 of materials, including carpets etc. >I am firmly convinced in looking at human impact in the big picture, that >*habitat displacement* due to housing and farming encroachment is a FAR, >FAR larger problem than global warming . . . Farming is indeed a big problem. However, the impact of farming on wildlife can be greatly reduced without hurting productivity much, and the techniques actually lower the cost of food. This was described in a multipart series broadcast by NHK (Japanese Nat. TV) on farming is Asia. >and global warming itself may NOT be controllable except by draconian >measures in the third world . . . The third world hardly contributes to global warming. 90% of the problem is in the first world, assuming the problem is CO2. >This hypocrisy is especially true for Texans in general and the Bush clan >in particular...what a sorry, sorry example for personal environmental >responsibility... How large is that ranch? ...doesn't that bother anyone . . . Actually, I think I read that Bush is not actively farming on his ranch, or grazing cattle. So it is more or less sitting there, acting as a wildlife refuge. Strictly from the point of view of other species, he is making a positive, welcome contribution in his personal life. Ted Turner owns 1.4 million acres of land, but he seems determined to convert it all back to the original, pristine state of nature, populated with native species. Effectively he is creating a gigantic national park. I doubt that he plans to leave it to his children and have it broken up and sold. I expect it will be converted into public land -- a park or wildlife refuge -- when he dies. So he is doing us all a great favor, and I am pleased to see him spend his money that way. There are many land conservancy organizations in the U.S., including the Adams County Pennsylvania Conservancy: http://www.gettysburg.com/cother/lcac.htm I am a big supporter, and a future Major Contributor. A distant future contributor, I hope. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 03:19:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA23657; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:18:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:18:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000d01c2b28f$ab9dace0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021230160001.026a2e30 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231132643.02098c58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021231165613.02e1fba0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030102095211.00b17e48 pop.mindspring.com> <000d01c2b28f$ab9dace0$0a016ea8 cpq> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 05:16:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: SUV's Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xFScy2.0.Zn5.l5N5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene posted; >those in rural areas, except perhaps to car-pool and drop one of the >family's cars. Unfortunately, it is those rural and suburban folks >who often insist on the giant SUV gas guzzlers and two, three or >more cars per family and also on large personal lot sizes for their >houses. > This posting reminds me of an interview that I heard this morning on National People's Radio. The SUV, how they came to be. It all started with the U S putting a tariff on European vans in retaliation for their impeding the import of chicken meat. That and their being classified as light trucks. Then there are the tax incentives. It's a really sad story. they kill more people than any other vehicle. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 03:21:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA24401; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:20:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 05:20:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: FWD: Is This The Fluoride Smoking Gun? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA24369 Resent-Message-ID: <"XeBth2.0.Bz5.48N5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > @@@@@@@@@@@@@ >PLANETNEWS broadcast... > >---------- >I don't need to say anything but...... >PLEASE READ THIS!! >Look around us! The awakening is happening!! And it cannot be stopped! >Peace, God Bless and Happy New Year! >Fred Smart >Evanston, Illinois >--------- >=========================== > >http://www.stratiawire.com/article.asp?id=805 > >Monday, December 30, 2002 > >IS THIS THE FLUORIDE SMOKING GUN? > >DECEMBER 30. EXCLUSIVE WIRE REPORT. I have come into possession of two >American patents which mention silicofluorides, the substances which are used >to fluoridate water supplies all over the US. > >I urge you to copy this article and distribute it. > >The first patent is dated March 29, 1932. Its number is 1,851,179. The patent >is for a process that makes phosphoric acid. > >But paragraph three contains this statement: *The fluorine forms a >hydro-fluo-silicic acid which is deposited on surfaces in the form of a hard >crusty formation. This formation builds up on the various pieces of apparatus >used in the [manufacturing] plant and tends to stop up pipe lines and the >like. Furthermore, fluorine or its acids react with and [illegible word] >undesirable disintegration of lead and other of the construction materials >used in the plant apparatus.* > >The second patent is dated January 8, 1905. Its number is 779,091. It is >titled: PROCESS OF MAKING SILICOFLUORID OF LEAD. > >Here is a telling excerpt: *The present process of making silicofluorid of >leadis based upon the discovery that lead not only in its metallic >condition, but as it exists in its oresis readily attacked and disssolved by >hydrofluosilicic acid* >If these two patents are not smoking guns, they are getting there. > >In an earlier article, I have cited the work of Dartmouth researcher, Roger >Masters, who has discovered a stunning correlation between the presence of >silicofluorides in the water supplies of Massachusetts towns---as a result of >intentional fluoridation---and elevated levels of lead in the blood of >children. > >The big question is, why does the presence of these fluorides signal the >increased lead levels? > >Is it because the fluorides are known to dissolve lead? > >Remember, the silicofluorides were introduced into American water supplies >starting in 1950, and at that time THERE WAS NO TESTING DONE to see if this >*innovation* would have adverse health effects. > >Further chemical research needs to be done in view of the statements in these >two patents, but any sensible person would demand an immediate moratorium on >all fluoridation of water supplies. > >Here are a few of the questions that need to be answered definitively: > >Are the silicofluoroides acting on lead particles in the water supply, making >those highly toxic particles even smaller and more easily >*transportable* in >the human body? For example, through the blood-brain barrier? > >Are the silicofluorides combining with the lead particles to form new >compounds which are dangerous to health? > >Do the silicofluorides break up in water, and if so, is the resultant residue >of unknown compounds dangerous? > >Lives and futures depend on the answers to these questions. > >It is clear from the dates on these patents that some scientists, in 1950, >KNEW that the introduction of silicofluorides into municipal water supplies >was a completely irresponsible act. > >It*s all too easy to say THEY DIDN*T KNOW, THEY FORGOT, THERE >WAS A MISTAKE, >IT*S JUST ONE MORE MASSIVE BLUNDER. > >The history of the use of fluorides reveals that an overwhelming PR campaign >was carried out in America to convince the public that industrial waste >products were actually a miracle tooth-decay solution. > >In the process, Americans came to believe that only *paranoid right-wing >eugenics advocates* were opposed to fluoridation. > >Fluoridation represents, at the very least, a vast indifference about matters >of human health and a drooling desire for corporate profits at any cost. >Beyond that, we are talking about intentional criminal action, another facet >of the CHEMICAL WAR AGAINST THE POPULATION. > >If you think WAR is too strong a term, add up the overall damage caused by >pharmaceuticals, industrial and agricultural chemicals. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 08:10:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10058; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:06:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:06:37 -0800 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:05:35 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Isn't this "dark energy" ZPE? To: vortex Message-id: <000701c2b341$f3d58ca0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2B2FE.E54D9760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"katie3.0._S2.DKR5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2B2FE.E54D9760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Dark Energy" Dominates The Universe HANOVER, NH - A Dartmouth researcher is building a case for a "dark = energy"-dominated universe. Dark energy, the mysterious energy with = unusual anti-gravitational properties, has been the subject of great = debate among cosmologists. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/may01/universe.html This story today from Dartmouth makes it sound like a brand new = discovery of a mysterious new energy source. "This finding provides = strong support for a universe which is dominated by a kind of energy = we've never directly observed,"=20 Ha! Where have these eggheads been - How did they miss Casimir and = Puthoff? Their "dark energy" sounds a lot like ZPE or beta-aether to me. = Shouldn't somebody break the news to them that far from being "new" - = that a few fringe science folks on vortex, in garage labs and elsewhere = have been trying to find ways to tap into this dark energy abundance for = at least a decade?=20 Jones THE NEXT FRONTIER FOR COSMOLOGISTS: DARK ENERGY The recent announcement of the discovery of a distant supernova =97 the = catastrophic explosion of an ancient star, caught in the act by the = Hubble Space Telescope =97 has provided strong evidence to confirm one = of the most unexpected scientific discoveries in recent years. The = expansion of the universe is accelerating, and the cause is thought to = be due to a new form of energy with unusual anti-gravitational = properties called "dark energy." Robert Caldwell, Assistant Professor of = Physics and Astronomy at Dartmouth, is one of a few cosmologists trying = to develop and test theories to better understand this mysterious dark = energy. It was long thought the cosmic expansion was slowing down, as if the Big = Bang was running out of gas. Now it appears the universe has recently = shifted into overdrive, and in the process overturned long-held ideas in = cosmology, the study of the origin, evolution and composition of the = universe. Brian Chaboyer, Assistant Professor of Physics and Astronomy at = Dartmouth, with his collaborator Lawrence Krauss, Professor of Physics = and Astronomy at Case Western Reserve University, have reported their = finding in the January 3, 2003, issue of Science. Combining their = calculations of the ages of the oldest stars with measurements of the = expansion rate and geometry of the universe lead them to conclude that = dark energy dominates the energy density of the universe. "This finding provides strong support for a universe which is dominated = by a kind of energy we've never directly observed," says Chaboyer. = "Observations of distant supernova have suggested for a few years that = dark energy dominates the universe, and our finding provides independent = evidence that the universe is dominated by this type of energy we do not = understand." The researchers came to this conclusion as they were refining their = calculations for the age of globular clusters, which are groups of about = 100,000 or more stars found in the outskirts of the Milky Way, our = galaxy. Because this age (about 12 billion years old) is inconsistent = with the expansion age for a flat universe (only about 9 billion years = old), Krauss and Chaboyer came to the conclusion that the universe is = expanding more quickly now than it did in the past. The only explanation, according to Chaboyer and Krauss, for an = accelerating universe is that the energy content of a vacuum is non-zero = with a negative pressure, in other words, dark energy. This negative = pressure of the vacuum grows in importance as the universe expands and = causes the expansion to accelerate. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2B2FE.E54D9760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Dark Energy" Dominates The Universe
 
HANOVER, NH - A Dartmouth researcher is building a case for a "dark = energy"-dominated universe. Dark energy, the mysterious energy with = unusual=20 anti-gravitational properties, has been the subject of great debate = among=20 cosmologists.
 
http= ://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/may01/universe.html
 
 
This story today from Dartmouth makes it sound like a brand new = discovery=20 of a mysterious new energy source. "This finding provides strong support = for a=20 universe which is dominated by a kind of energy we've never directly = observed,"=20
 
Ha! Where have these eggheads been - How did they miss Casimir = and=20 Puthoff?
 
Their "dark energy" sounds a lot like ZPE or beta-aether to me. = Shouldn't=20 somebody break the news to them that far from being "new" - that a = few=20 fringe science folks on vortex, in garage labs and elsewhere have = been=20 trying to find ways to tap into this dark energy abundance for at least = a=20 decade?
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
THE NEXT FRONTIER FOR COSMOLOGISTS: DARK ENERGY
 
The recent announcement of the discovery of a distant supernova =97 = the=20 catastrophic explosion of an ancient star, caught in the act by the = Hubble Space=20 Telescope =97 has provided strong evidence to confirm one of the most = unexpected=20 scientific discoveries in recent years. The expansion of the universe is = accelerating, and the cause is thought to be due to a new form of energy = with=20 unusual anti-gravitational properties called "dark energy." Robert = Caldwell,=20 Assistant Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Dartmouth, is one of a = few=20 cosmologists trying to develop and test theories to better understand = this=20 mysterious dark energy.
 
It was long thought the cosmic expansion was slowing down, as if = the Big=20 Bang was running out of gas. Now it appears the universe has recently = shifted=20 into overdrive, and in the process overturned long-held ideas in = cosmology, the=20 study of the origin, evolution and composition of the universe.
 
Brian Chaboyer, Assistant Professor of Physics and Astronomy at = Dartmouth,=20 with his collaborator Lawrence Krauss, Professor of Physics and = Astronomy at=20 Case Western Reserve University, have reported their finding in the = January 3,=20 2003, issue of Science. Combining their calculations of the ages of the = oldest=20 stars with measurements of the expansion rate and geometry of the = universe lead=20 them to conclude that dark energy dominates the energy density of the=20 universe.
 
"This finding provides strong support for a universe which is = dominated by=20 a kind of energy we've never directly observed," says Chaboyer. = "Observations of=20 distant supernova have suggested for a few years that dark energy = dominates the=20 universe, and our finding provides independent evidence that the = universe is=20 dominated by this type of energy we do not understand."
 
The researchers came to this conclusion as they were refining their = calculations for the age of globular clusters, which are groups of about = 100,000=20 or more stars found in the outskirts of the Milky Way, our galaxy. = Because this=20 age (about 12 billion years old) is inconsistent with the expansion age = for a=20 flat universe (only about 9 billion years old), Krauss and Chaboyer came = to the=20 conclusion that the universe is expanding more quickly now than it did = in the=20 past.
 
The only explanation, according to Chaboyer and Krauss, for an = accelerating=20 universe is that the energy content of a vacuum is non-zero with a = negative=20 pressure, in other words, dark energy. This negative pressure of the = vacuum=20 grows in importance as the universe expands and causes the expansion to=20 accelerate.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2B2FE.E54D9760-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 08:52:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29503; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:48:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:48:25 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Jan 2003 16:48:09 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103111705.036aa948 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:37:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Yet another example of suppressed science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA29454 Resent-Message-ID: <"oiuz_1.0.vC7.OxR5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: New York Times, December 30, 2002, "Evidence Mounting That Moderate Drinking Is Healthful" Quotes: The net health effects of alcohol are heavily influenced by its dangers. The World Health Organization estimates that over all, alcohol causes as much illness and death as measles and malaria, and more years of life lost to death and disability than tobacco or illegal drugs. Health policy makers have been left an unwieldy balance. The benefits of moderate drinking are undeniable but, like all prevention strategies, invisible disease simply does not happen. On the other hand the ravages of excessive alcohol use are all too visible. "You can't see the benefits but you can see the results of heavy drinking on any highway," Dr. Rimm said. "I've had people call me up and say, what are you doing, how can you even be talking about recommending that people drink alcohol?" Thirty years ago, policy makers just preferred to keep the whole conundrum quiet. The Framingham study, which began to examine risks for heart disease in 1948, was one of the first big studies to find heart benefits from alcohol. One of its researchers, Dr. Carl Seltzer, wrote in a short 1996 memoir that when he and his colleagues informed their government sponsors at the National Heart and Lung Institute in 1972 of these findings, they were forbidden to publish them. "An article which openly invites the encouragement of undertaking drinking with the implication of preventing coronary heart disease would be scientifically misleading and socially undesirable in view of the major health problem of alcoholism that already exists in the country," their contact at the government agency wrote. Ultimately the Framingham findings were published in the company of dozens of similar ones. . . ." What were these people thinking back in 1948? Did they seriously think it was better to hide the truth, and the truth could be hidden forever? Moderate consumption of alcohol is good for you, unless you are prone to addiction or you have liver problems or some other contraindicated medical condition. This is common knowledge, and it has been for centuries, in France and Japan and elsewhere. Sometimes these folk-beliefs are wrong, but often they are right, and it is has been obvious for decades that this one is right. I suppose the authorities are trying to suppress this mainly because they fear the knowledge may spur more irresponsible drinking and alcoholism. That outcome seems unlikely to me. People who are go on binges are drive under the influence are not influenced by medical research. It is surprising how often scientists feel confused or reticent about revealing the truth revealed by experiments. Except in rare cases, the traditions and ethics of science are unequivocal: always reveal the unvarnished truth. Tell everything, no matter how uncomfortable it makes people, no matter how much at odds with theory or fashion it may be. The rare exceptions are, for example, when you discover a simple way to make a bomb, or an effective way to spread anthrax, or you find a security breach in Windows. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 09:58:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31395; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:54:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:54:35 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Yet another example of suppressed science Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:11:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103111705.036aa948 pop.mindspring.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"Srv0x.0.Sg7.QvS5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. Although a little solvent may be good for the heart, I can't say I've ever seen it do much for folks brains, livers, etc. I'm guessing that you could get much the same benefit from regular consumption of aspirin. I recommend medicinal drinking only for novelists. For the rest of you, here's a nice tutorial http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/issues/10_02/10_02_bar_signs.htm K. PS: Heroin is the worlds most effective cough suppressant. But for some strange reason it's no longer to be found in cough medicine. Scientific suppression????(grin). -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:37 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Yet another example of suppressed science See: New York Times, December 30, 2002, "Evidence Mounting That Moderate Drinking Is Healthful" Quotes: The net health effects of alcohol are heavily influenced by its dangers. The World Health Organization estimates that over all, alcohol causes as much illness and death as measles and malaria, and more years of life lost to death and disability than tobacco or illegal drugs. Health policy makers have been left an unwieldy balance. The benefits of moderate drinking are undeniable but, like all prevention strategies, invisible disease simply does not happen. On the other hand the ravages of excessive alcohol use are all too visible. "You can't see the benefits but you can see the results of heavy drinking on any highway," Dr. Rimm said. "I've had people call me up and say, what are you doing, how can you even be talking about recommending that people drink alcohol?" Thirty years ago, policy makers just preferred to keep the whole conundrum quiet. The Framingham study, which began to examine risks for heart disease in 1948, was one of the first big studies to find heart benefits from alcohol. One of its researchers, Dr. Carl Seltzer, wrote in a short 1996 memoir that when he and his colleagues informed their government sponsors at the National Heart and Lung Institute in 1972 of these findings, they were forbidden to publish them. "An article which openly invites the encouragement of undertaking drinking with the implication of preventing coronary heart disease would be scientifically misleading and socially undesirable in view of the major health problem of alcoholism that already exists in the country," their contact at the government agency wrote. Ultimately the Framingham findings were published in the company of dozens of similar ones. . . ." What were these people thinking back in 1948? Did they seriously think it was better to hide the truth, and the truth could be hidden forever? Moderate consumption of alcohol is good for you, unless you are prone to addiction or you have liver problems or some other contraindicated medical condition. This is common knowledge, and it has been for centuries, in France and Japan and elsewhere. Sometimes these folk-beliefs are wrong, but often they are right, and it is has been obvious for decades that this one is right. I suppose the authorities are trying to suppress this mainly because they fear the knowledge may spur more irresponsible drinking and alcoholism. That outcome seems unlikely to me. People who are go on binges are drive under the influence are not influenced by medical research. It is surprising how often scientists feel confused or reticent about revealing the truth revealed by experiments. Except in rare cases, the traditions and ethics of science are unequivocal: always reveal the unvarnished truth. Tell everything, no matter how uncomfortable it makes people, no matter how much at odds with theory or fashion it may be. The rare exceptions are, for example, when you discover a simple way to make a bomb, or an effective way to spread anthrax, or you find a security breach in Windows. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 10:30:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16640; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:25:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:25:56 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Jan 2003 18:25:45 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103130749.00b199b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:25:40 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Yet another example of suppressed science In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103111705.036aa948 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ipR4E1.0.v34.qMT5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Although a little solvent may be good for the heart, I can't >say I've ever seen it do much for folks brains, livers, etc. As I said, liver problems or addiction are a problem, but alcohol is good for the brain, circulatory system, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, cancer and a host of geriatric problems. More quotes from the article: "The science supporting the protective role of alcohol is indisputable; no one questions it any more," said Dr. Curtis Ellison, a professor of medicine and public health at the Boston University School of Medicine. "There have been hundreds of studies, all consistent." . . . In a study of more than 80,000 American women, those who drank moderately had only half the heart attack risk of those who did not drink at all, even if they were slim, did not smoke and exercised daily. Moderate drinking was about as good for the heart as an hour of exercise a day. Not drinking at all was as bad for the heart as morbid obesity. In thousands of middle-aged Danish men with high cholesterol, moderate drinkers had 50 percent less risk of developing heart disease from blocked arteries than abstainers. Among more than 100,000 California adults, moderate drinking after age 40 was associated with reduced death rates during every subsequent decade of life -- in some people by as much as 30 percent. . . . >I'm guessing that you could get much the same benefit from >regular consumption of aspirin. Aspirin is good for some conditions. It reduces stroke, but it does not help high cholesterol or blocked arteries or some of the other diseases that alcohol helps in many patients. Aspirin may help prevent some kinds of cancer. >PS: Heroin is the worlds most effective cough suppressant. >But for some strange reason it's no longer to be found in >cough medicine. Scientific suppression????(grin). Other addictive poppy derivatives such as codeine are still used in cough medicine for children & adults. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 11:32:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17232; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:27:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:27:27 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Jan 2003 19:26:58 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103141139.020ed040 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:26:47 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Iraq fails to prove a negative Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tc78u3.0.6D4.VGU5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am sorry to introduce politics, but I find statements like this intensely annoying: "Hans Blix, who heads the U.N.'s weapons inspection program, has said that Iraq failed to prove in its declaration that it has no weapons of mass destruction, while U.S. and British officials have also said they found the declaration short of a full accounting." - CNN I wish that a group of scientist, philosophers or logicians would publish an open letter in the Times or somewhere pointing out the absurdity of such statements. You cannot prove a negative! You can never prove that X does not exist, only that Y does exist. The skeptics are forever demanding that CF scientists "prove there is no error" in their methodology, which is ridiculous. It is up to the skeptics to find an error. If they cannot do this after a reasonable length of time, we must conclude there is no error. (To be exact, the likelihood of error is insignificant.) The length of time is somewhat arbitrary. It is partly a matter of opinion. It depends on how diligently people are looking for errors. But ten years of intense scrutiny is surely long enough. Also, if the U.S. intelligence agencies know where Iraqi weapons are hidden, they should tell the U.N. inspectors. The administration claims that revealing this information would be a security risk, but surely there is no risk greater than the alternative the administration advocates: going to war! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 12:17:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13233; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:14:13 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:29:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Yet another example of suppressed science Resent-Message-ID: <"kBuOP2.0.hE3.KyU5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:37 AM 1/3/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >Moderate consumption of alcohol is good for you, unless you are prone to >addiction or you have liver problems or some other contraindicated medical >condition. [snip] Having a brain might be one of those contraindicated medical conditions. Just because consumption of alcohol may benefit one organ does not mean it is not bad for other organs. Taking this to the aburd, we might say that cutting off the head may provide relief for a conjested heart, but is not good for the patient as a whole. Drinking may provide benefits to the heart, but why pay for that benefit with brain damage if there are other ways to achieve the same benefit. It may be that sports, recreation, socialization or even having a pet may achieve the same or more benefit. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 13:30:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24857; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:26:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:26:16 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Jan 2003 21:26:03 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103162558.036aa948 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:26:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Yet another example of suppressed science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tHxbG3.0.E46.u_V5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Drinking may provide benefits to the heart, but why pay for that benefit >with brain damage . . . There is no indication that moderate drinking causes brain damage. On the contrary, many studies show that it helps prevent or alleviate symptoms of dementia and possibly Alzheimer's disease. It reduces fatty deposits in the brain that can result in strokes. It reduces some types of stroke dramatically. It should be understood that "moderate" drinking means one glass of beer a day, or every second day. This is nowhere near enough to intoxicate a person. It should be taken like medicine. Many medicines are toxic in large amounts, but beneficial in small amounts. Drinking five glasses of beer in one day is like taking five doses of blood pressure medication at once. Everyone knows that alcohol causes severe health problems. Probably, if you could wave a wand and make it disappear, overall human health would improve. No doubt it can destroy organs, perhaps including the brain, when taken in massive doses. However, it does have important therapeutic value when properly administered. Scare stories about inevitable brain damage are distortions circulated by people who do not realize that medicine is a subtle and complex subject. In some cases alcohol can save lives, and prolong a healthy life. There is no point in denying that just because it also has deleterious effects. Thalidomide caused dreadful birth defects in the 1950s, but it is now in use again for patients who not at risk of pregnancy. It is valuable in treating many serious diseases. See: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/cbm/thalidomide.html#15 It would be absurd to condemn thalidomide or ban its use because it is dangerous for some people. That would be like banning nitroglycerin for the treatment of heart attacks because it is a dangerous explosive. >if there are other ways to achieve the same benefit. It may be that >sports, recreation, socialization or even having a pet may achieve the >same or more benefit. The Times article makes it clear that some experts consider alcohol a uniquely valuable life saving drug, to be administered in addition to sports, recreation and so on. Having a pet or playing in sports cannot remove fatty deposits. The article ends: . . . for some people, Dr. Klatsky said, alcohol may be a lifesaver. Take a hypothetical man in his 50's who has already had a minor heart attack and has been frightened into doing everything in his power to protect his heart -- losing weight, watching his fat intake, giving up cigarettes -- for that man, forgoing a nightly glass of wine might actually raise his risk of recurrent heart problems, undermining all his good intentions. "Can abstinence be hazardous to your health?" Dr. Klatsky asked. "Yes, for a person like that patient, it could be." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 13:58:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05299; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:55:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:55:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1607AA.7DFA3461 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:59:06 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 3 Jan 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ASu2O3.0.jI1.sQW5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 3 Jan 03 Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:20:54 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 3 Jan 03 Washington, DC 1. TAIKONAUTS? CHINA GETS TO THE STARTING LINE A LITTLE LATE. About 40 years late. Yes, the space-race is back...and just in time. Shenzhou IV is in orbit right now, testing life-support equipment for a manned mission later this year. Already China is talking about putting humans on the moon and Mars. "Appropriate in stature, quick in movement and unafraid of hardship, Chinese astronauts are clearly superior," the head of China's space program boasted to Chinese reporters. The brilliance of America's space strategy now seems clear: Lure China into a space race. To compete in human space flight, China will have to shift energy and resources from its military adventures to Taikonauts, which will have little or no military or economic payoff. At least we're now playing on a level field. Toss in plans to the Space Shuttle and we could cripple China without firing a shot. 2. LOS ALAMOS: BROWNE QUITS AMID CHARGES OF THEFT AND CORRUPTION. In recent years, Los Alamos has survived raging forest fires, a misguided spy hunt, a capricious hard drive that disappeared and then reappeared, and mandatory polygraph testing. Could the lab now succumb to credit card abuse? Two investigators, hired to look into the credit card problems, were dismissed. They did not go quietly, claiming the lab was engaged in a coverup. Now, continuation of the University of California contact to operate Los Alamos since 1943 is in question. Lab director John Browne and Joseph Salgado, principal deputy director, resigned. 3. STOP CLONING AROUND: CLONAID HAS STARTED BACKPEDALING. Last week we reported that the company, founded by Raelians, picked gullible physicist Michael Guillen to oversee verification of the cloning of baby Eve (WN 27 Dec 02). He says he's not being paid to do this, but it is generally believed that he is working on a book or film deal. But it now seems that the parents (parent?) of Eve are resisting such a test. We are, of course, shocked, but apparently a Florida lawyer has filed a suit claiming that Eve is being abused or exploited and asking the court to take custody. Meanwhile, the vice president of Clonaid will explain the new cloning technology and discuss investment opportunities at the Broward County Convention Center on 11 Jan 03 www.money- expo.com . The workshop is free, but you're gonna need $99 to reserve a seat. Clonaid is a commercial company, and it's not embarrassed about its goals: it expects to make a lot of money. Immortality, after all, should be an easy sell. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN. You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 14:11:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10610; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:07:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:07:31 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:06:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Sticking it to Parksie Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4c91e1.0.ib2.YcW5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sticking it to Parksie
I am sending this paper out to you all for comments.

     You people have heard what Theodore Roosevelt said about "talk softly and carry a big stick. Well, I have found not just a stick, but a fasces of sticks. They are the communicators whose programs air on the Salem Radio Network. The biggest stick in this fasces is Hugh Hewitt, professor of constitutional law. There are several million of us tune into his program on a daily basis. There is no one who beats the war drum any louder than Professor Hewitt. Having served in the military, and married a colonel's daughter, there is no more eloquent advocate of military service. If the story below is correct, he won't take kindly to this public servant's actions. There is nothing about our war efforts, or our economy, which would not be made better by our having energy independence. I introduced myself to Hugh at the Minnesota State Fair, and he was impressed by my interest in making a contribution to the development of a new paradigm of physics.     
Robert Park, Professor of Physics at the University of Maryland, and spokesperson for the American Physical Society, APS, has the ability to infuriate me like no man I have ever met. To even things up, I have hung the moniker of Parksie on him. While seeing Vortexians ( people who post on Vortex-l, a discussion group on scientific anomalies ) refer to Dr. Park as Parksie is satisfying, that satisfaction would pale in comparison to using this big fasces as a lever to get congress to investigate the APS's and the Department of Energy, DOE's behavior in this matter. 

     Parksie and his cohorts in the DOE attempted to strangle cold fusion technology, CF, in it's cradle by threatening to withhold all DOE funding from an entire school if the administration allowed any CF research to be conducted in the institution. This behavior is perfectly understandable, given the $150,000,000,000, more or less, of taxpayer money, that Parksie's cohorts the hot fusioneers, have spent attempting to get one of their hot fusion reactors to go over unity, produce more usable energy than is consumed to run it, the last I heard they were at 85%.

     Contrast this with the privately funded CF researchers; most particularly the late James Patterson, who was reporting an energy output which was several hundred times over unity, have accomplished this and much more, see www.lenr-canr.org for papers on the subject. Wayne Green, www.waynegreen.com , publishes a cold fusion magazine, as does Eugene Mallove, www.infinite-energy.com .

     Having failed in their first ploy, they have turned to a more insidious tactic of interfering with the protection of the intellectual property of the CF researchers. One of the patents which they thwarted was Mitchell Schwartz's patent on a process for deuterium loading of metals, and as I understand it there have been others.

     Parksie was also involved in the rejection of Randall Mill's patent application, on his Black Light Power Technology, www.blacklightpower.com . While Randall's efforts have yet to produce any usable energy, there is no question that something very anomalous is occurring in his cells. 

     He was also instrumental in getting Tom Valone, of Integrity Research Institute, www.integrityresearchinstitute.org ,  fired from his job at the Patent Office, and getting his alternative energy conference removed from it's original venue.

     During an interview on the Todd Mundt show, which aired on National People's Radio, NPR, Parksie derided cold fusion, he them asserted that there was "no evidence for the production of tritium, or helium." This is a lie, and he knows it. Then there are the papers on the subject of anomalous isotope production in CF cells, and Parksie's comment that he, "doesn't care about your isotopic ratios."

     As far as I know, no one has yet directly cohered the energy of the vacuum, AKA the Zero Point Energy, ZPE, and the Zitternbewegung. Although both Hal Puthoff, www.eathtech.com , and Harold Aspden, www.energysicence.co.uk , have both done their best to accomplish this. The only possible exception to this is the late Paul Brown's Nuclear and Tritium Battery patents, www.nucsol.com . Since they involve the use of radioneuclides, we don't know that the energy is coming from the ZPE. In his attacks on this effort, Parksie regularly sites the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which no one, other than Yahweh, may his name be blessed, has succeeded in doing. Absent in his tirades, is any mention of the Active Aether Theory of Physics, which has it's share of adherents, because both Dr. Puthoff and Dr Aspden's doctorates are in physics. 

     Parksie and his cohorts have totally ignored the reactionless drive experiments of Robert Cook, www.forceborne.com and his writings in The Death of Rocketry, questioning Newtonian Mechanics and General Relativity.

     They would have ignored the research into nonorthogonal waves too, were it not for their medical applications. Parksie delights in attacking the energy medicine regimes; reike, acupuncture and homeopathy. Given his total lack of understand of the phenomena, he has less understanding of energy medicine than a pig has about Easter, this is understandable. Orthogonal radiation obeys the I R^2 law, which means that the amount of energy in a given cross section of the wave diminishes with the square of the radius, or the distance from the source, as it propagates. The potency of Homeopathic Preparations increases with dilution, this absolutely confounds engineers who are familiar with the rules governing orthogonal phenomena. Parksie has also attacked our hard won right to purchase herbal medicinal supplements, which infuriates me more than anything else he has done.

     This man has his snout in the public feed trough, and is therefore subject to the will of congress. It is my hope that his meddling in technological development can be thwarted.

     Thomas Malloy, is the author of the ART of Controlling the effects of Aging and Towards a Hyperdimensional Paradigm of Physics, see www.artresearch.com . An extensive list of various researchers who are working on this effort can be found on the Institute for New Energy's website, www.padrak.com/ine/ .

    
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 15:01:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00640; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:58:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:58:07 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Jan 2003 22:57:58 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103175353.020de8a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:57:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Sticking it to Parksie In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"h12Nk1.0.v9._LX5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > This man has his snout in the public feed trough, and is therefore > subject to the will of congress. Does he? As far as I know, the APS is a private organization, and the University of Maryland is paid for by the state of Maryland. Does Park earn any federal money? I would be cautious about calling for a Congressional investigation. Park has right to his opinions, and the right of free speech. I do not favor investigating people for having unpopular or controversial opinions, or popular but obnoxious ones. There are some aspects of the CF story that may call for an investigation, but not Park's role as far as I know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 3 21:11:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12298; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 21:09:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 21:09:02 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Sticking it to Parksie Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:09:01 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030103175353.020de8a0 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"1HVDn1.0.z_2.jnc5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Furthermore, his unconcious efforts are so humorous that I look forward to seeing his gaffes each week. All the other humor columnists must put a lot of effort into what comes ro naturally to Parksie... Painfully reassuring that the 'lowest common denominator' public trough feeders pose no credible competition to real scientists. [Oh my, you mean you think that 'government scientist' is not an oxymoron? Go back to sleep...] cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] > Sent: Saturday, 2003 January 04 05:58 > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Sticking it to Parksie > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > This man has his snout in the public feed trough, and is therefore > > subject to the will of congress. > > Does he? As far as I know, the APS is a private organization, and the > University of Maryland is paid for by the state of Maryland. Does > Park earn > any federal money? > > I would be cautious about calling for a Congressional investigation. Park > has right to his opinions, and the right of free speech. I do not favor > investigating people for having unpopular or controversial opinions, or > popular but obnoxious ones. There are some aspects of the CF > story that may > call for an investigation, but not Park's role as far as I know. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 4 02:28:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA22218; Sat, 4 Jan 2003 02:26:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 02:26:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20030103101350.01f317b0 earthlink.net> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030103101350.01f317b0 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 04:24:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: FWD: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA22163 Resent-Message-ID: <"fp1kT1.0.4R5.1Rh5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pat Bailey, ever the pessimist on the future of privacy, sent this to me. I sent it off to my computer geek nephew to see what he has to say. The part about their ability to get your encryption keys off of your hard drive was interesting. My nephew was going on about making the Internet totally private by using 128 bit encryption keys on everything. >FWD: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet > >Thanks Len! > >----- Original Message ----- >From: MofMars aol.com >To: sideshowjeff hotmail.com >Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 7:27 PM >Subject: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet > >The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet > >On Monday, July 1, Microsoft announced plans for a new product known >as 'Palladium' that it claims will assure 'security' and 'copyright >protection' on the internet. Advocates for freedom of _expression >and privacy, though, point out that the processor-based digital >authentication system will enable Microsoft to effectively >remote-control home PCs. If the system becomes widely adopted, >people will be forced to buy Palladium-enabled computers. > >Palladium is only roughly outlined, but what is known indicates that >it is almost certain to put an end to Open Source software as we >know it: i.e., Linux. Palladium would also give Microsoft unlimited >access to your personal internet history, email history, email >encryption keys and even the contents of your hard drive. It would >also enable centrally-controlled, hardware-based blocking of >websites that it deems 'insecure' and hence 'non-Palladium-approved'. > >"It's the ultimate in an Orwellian presentation of the issue," says >Chris Hoofnagle, the legislative counsel at the Electronic Privacy >Information Center. "You dress up an invasive tool as a helpful one." > >Once this sort of external control is enabled, it is not only >Microsoft that would have what is, in effect, complete control of >your computer. For example, if the government were to label an >organization as 'terrorist', a 'threat to national security', >'illegal', or 'socially inappropriate', that organization's website >could be blocked to anyone with a Palladium-enabled computer. >Non-Palladium-enabled computers would be identified as 'insecure' >and have limited or no access to the internet. > >Sites like Indymedia that feature creative and radical individual >expressions could be marginalized and kept from public view. >Likewise, anyone who has unauthorized music or software on their >machine would not be able to play/use it. If the government does not >like what you are doing on your computer, they can wipe your >hard-drive and lock you out of it. > >The internet has become a powerful tool for individuals to >communicate, educate themselves, organize and oppose centralized >domination. This initiative is a primary component in seizing the >internet from the individual and putting it under centralized >control. > >Read more here....>>>http://victoria.indymedia.org/features/technology > >---------------- >Another article >---------------- > >Rense.com > >Head For The Hills, >The End Is Nigh > >By Tom White >LewRockwell.com >12-22-2 > >On December 20 (2002), the New York Times published a story with an >exceedingly ominous headline: "Bush Administration to Propose System >for Monitoring Internet." I can think of some reasons not to be as >alarmed as I am at this bit of news and to greet this is just >another ho-hum from a big journal. When you ask, Who is so naive as >to suppose the administration was not monitoring already? This >simply appears as confirmation of what is going on. Another yawn >comes from realizing this news is actually old stuff, as noted in >the article. The proposal was adumbrated September last in "draft >form." (When the draft appeared it called for "industry" to do the >monitoring, but now, in the current version, government will >undertake to do it. Surprise! Surprise!) And I am sure you can find >other notes of "business as usual" in the article. The dead-pan >reporters, John Markoff and John Schwartz, who never come even close >to saying the dread word censorship, run on for a couple of dozen >short paragraphs about how the purpose of the proposal is, of >course, the urgent search for terrorist activities and not at all >about invading privacy, etc., etc., which is the worry of the >Internet service providers and others they interviewed. But any >lover of the Internet is going to get cold chills from, if nothing >else, the story's lead: "The Bush administration is planning to >propose requiring Internet service providers to help build a >centralized system to enable broad monitoring of the Internet and, >potentially, surveillance of its users." Surveillance! Ah, how >deliciously World War II (movie version). Can you see those >marvelous Nazi officers that Hollywood always had on tap, asking for >your papers as you attempt to escape on the last train out of >Berlin? They'll surveillance you all right, have no fear. Ach! >Ceeteezen Weiss, strengst verboten! (I remember those words from >some war movie). I have long felt the Bush Administration is not >shaping up as the most glorious friend of freedom the world has ever >seen. I have said before in this space that whenever the boilerplate >rolls out from the Oval Office you can usually do a direct Orwellian >translation: peace means war, security means danger, freedom means >government control, etc. That's when they are talking platitudes or >denying the obvious. But when they are telling you what's coming >they manage to be a bit more direct: the title of this proposal is >"The National Strategy to Secure Cyberspace." Also one Ms. Tiffany >Olson, deputy chief of staff for the President's Critical >Infrastructure Protection Board (don't you love those titles?) said, >according to the Times article, that the need for a large-scale >operations center is real, because Internet service companies and >other online companies only have a view of the part of the Internet >that is under their control. "We don't have anybody that is able to >look at the entire picture. When something is happening we don't >know it's happening until it's too late." (Like 9/11 presumably?) Or >this from an unidentified official with a "major data services >company": "Am I analogizing this to Carnivore? Absolutely. But in >fact it's 10 times worse. Carnivore was working on much smaller >feeds and could not scale. This is looking at the whole Internet." >Gary North has made a virtuoso demonstration of the miracle of the >Internet in offering just three or four links that revealed the >depth and extent of the linkage of the CFR, the OSS and CIA, the >Rockefeller interests, and the national government under a whole >string of Presidents since FDR. Just for starters, FDR was a >Rockefeller man through and through and his alter ego, Harry >Hopkins, often credited with "winning the war," carried water for >the Rockefellers all his life. The Rockefellers hired a couple of >historians (academics are notoriously cheap) to falsify the record >of FDR's role in the start of WW II, and that's just one thing to >their credit. As a friend of mine said, they rigged up a >long-lasting depressed stock market in the 30s and then "bought the >country back with sandwiches." Missing from the panorama North >opened to view was any comment on a particular bête noir of mine, >Beardsley Ruml, the inventor of the withholding tax, a Rockefeller >employee and later government official, who is deserving of a >special day on the national calendar set aside for the burning of >his effigy in every county public square. Money buys loyalty >big-time, but loyalty to the commonwealth? Not a bit of it. I hope >that somebody who knows more about the possibilities in this area, >and the technical side of whether or not it is possible for the >Powers That Be to control the Internet as they now control the major >media, will now come forward to reassure us that I am wrong to see >this as a real threat to the ability to check the suppressed history >of the age just past and to find out what is really going on today. >I have great respect for people mastered by the desire to dominate. >In the end they are headed for ruin, but they are the devil's own >instruments while they are in action, and they famously don't like >criticism. They are very thin-skinned and, like Orcs, very ugly when >aroused. Tom White writes from Odessa, Texas. Copyright (c) 2002 >LewRockwell.com > >http://www.lewrockwell.com/white/white24.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 4 19:53:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07225; Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:50:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 19:50:07 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Quantum condition ...what does the term mean? Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:49:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7aaf1v8uurgt2k6u2e42oiesehasccr76l 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA07138 Resent-Message-ID: <"w5BMT2.0.om1.ljw5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to FZNIDARSIC aol.com's message of Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:13:37 EST: Hi, [snip] >It means the angular momentum of the electron going around the nucleus can >only be certain discrete values. angular momentum = R X V > >for the atom angular momentum = N* R X V > >whare n is an integer > >Frank IMO there is no intrinsic quantisation of angular momentum, just as there is no intrinsic quantisation of velocity. The sole cause of quantisation in atoms is the need for phase matching of the De Broglie wave of the electron (head to tail). If there is no phase match, then the electron gets out of phase with itself, and exterminates itself at that radius. Only those radii where the De Broglie wave is self-reinforcing (i.e. where phase match occurs) are stable. This indirectly also causes a quantisation of angular momentum. How the latter is an effect, not a cause. Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 4 20:22:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19764; Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:20:56 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Quantum condition ...what does the term mean? Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:20:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7aaf1v8uurgt2k6u2e42oiesehasccr76l@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <7aaf1v8uurgt2k6u2e42oiesehasccr76l 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA19734 Resent-Message-ID: <"G7LKT3.0.kq4.dAx5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:49:25 +1100: >also causes a quantisation of angular momentum. How the latter is an effect, not a cause. Oops....that should have been....................^^^ "However". Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 5 01:22:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA31489; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:21:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:21:54 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:37:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Yet another example of suppressed science Resent-Message-ID: <"OQ9JD2.0.rh7.na_5-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:26 PM 1/3/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Drinking may provide benefits to the heart, but why pay for that benefit >>with brain damage . . . > >There is no indication that moderate drinking causes brain damage. Jed, I am not familiar with the many alcohol toxicological studies that have been done, or the medical debate in progress on this, but it seems to me to be common sense that if heavy drinking, i.e. 5 or more drinks a day, causes brain damage that is often observed in scans and autopsies, that a drink or two a day is not likely to cause no brain damage. That is not a major dose reduction. Further, since a drink or two a day is a serious treat to infants, it is also reasonable that it should impair those regenerative or recouperative funtions in a mature brain which function in a manner similar to growth mechanisms in pre-natal brains. The fact that small amounts of alcohol damage fetal brains is indicative that moderate drinking causes at least some brain damage Here in Alaska, there are various dry communities that benfit in many ways from being dry, including having reduced birth defects. The social cost of alcohol is very high, both monitarily and in the pain and suffering of the innocent and abusers alike. My personal choice is to avoid alcohol altogether. For me, it makes it so much easier to avoid pigging out on tempting food, and also makes for a much reduced food budget. Some years after quitting alcohol I eventually could experience the natural but smaller highs of every day life. For some reason this just doesn't happen when I consume alcohol on a regular basis. Life for me is just so much better without it. I'm just not the same grumpy contentious curmudgeon I used to be... 8^) ... well, not quite as much! I think this is simply a very old problem with not enough science behind it. I do agree it is likely science has been suppressed. Suppressed on both sides. That is certainly not good science, as you say The solution is more riqorous and comprehensive science that might be afforded if we can ever solve the energy and peace problems. I doubt that I can add more than that to the discussion so I'll just listen to any reponses. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 5 14:07:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03394; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:05:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:05:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:03:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: FWD: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"yEMgS3.0.uq.rmA6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pat Bailey, ever the pessimist on the future of privacy, sent this to me. I sent it off to my computer geek nephew to see what he has to say. The part about their ability to get your encryption keys off of your hard drive was interesting. My nephew was going on about making the Internet totally private by using 128 bit encryption keys on everything. >FWD: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet > >Thanks Len! > >----- Original Message ----- >From: MofMars aol.com >To: sideshowjeff hotmail.com >Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 7:27 PM >Subject: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet > >The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet > >On Monday, July 1, Microsoft announced plans for a new product known From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 5 14:07:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03330; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:05:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:05:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:03:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Comments on Sticking it Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"n7Hin3.0.yp.omA6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Comments on Sticking it
Jed Posted;

Did Patterson die? His grandson Reding died suddenly in his mid 40s. I have not heard about Patterson.

Thanks for calling that to my attention Jed, I'll look into that, As I recall the grandson took over following James Patterson's death.  Does anyone have a URL for them? I'm going to do a Google search.

Well, I did the Google search. I can't find a website for CETI. I also found Mitchell Schwartz's site. The only contact method is a snailmail address. Has anyone heard from him lately?

I could use a few more persecution stories. All I ask is that the person in question has real technology. I went looking for Jeane Manning's email. The only website I was able to find was the one at http://jeanemanning.innoplaza.net . She is pushing her book and telling about all the marvelous technology that will soon be available, as seen at that conference in Europe last summer. Tom Valone was there and he told me that there was nothing ready for market. As I recall, Tom said that there was nothing new and exciting either. IMHO, Ms. Manning is another vaporware merchant similar to Peter Linderman.

Present at the aforementioned conference was J R R Searle. For those of you who are new to the group, Searle goes around the world telling people about his marvelous machine which will cure all diseases, provide pollution free energy, and defeat gravity! When asked about the whereabouts of the two machines he claims to have built, he tells people that when he wound them up, they flew away into space. Q: why can't I get a job like that? A: because I too ethical!

     This man has his snout in the public feed trough, and is therefore subject to the will of congress.

Does he? As far as I know, the APS is a private organization, and the University of Maryland is paid for by the state of Maryland. Does Park earn any federal money?

Are you sure that it's privately funded? I'd be surprised if it doesn't get some governmental funding.

I would be cautious about calling for a Congressional investigation. Park has right to his opinions, and the right of free speech. I do not favor investigating people for having unpopular or controversial opinions, or popular but obnoxious ones.

I agree with the free speech part. What I'm concerned about is their thwarting inventors from getting patent protection. As far as the congressional investigation, I'd like to put him under oath and ask him about suppression of technology that conflicts with his paradigm.

 There are some aspects of the CF story that may call for an investigation, but not Park's role as far as I know.

AFAIK, Parksie was responsible for the firing of Tom Valone and getting his alternative energy conference moved. I seem to recall his gloating about interfering with Randall Mill's patent. I'd like to get more examples of people who were denied patent protection. Does anybody have Mitchell Schwartz's email address?

Xplorer posted;


Furthermore, his unconcious efforts
 are so humorous that I look forward
 to seeing his gaffes each week.

I agree, the comment about bankrupting the ChiComs by giving them the plans for that Golden Turkey, the Space Shuttle, was very humorous.

[Oh my, you mean you think that 'government scientist'
  is not an oxymoron? Go back to sleep...]

I don't know about that, scientists who work in academia, and are therefore employed by the government have done some very good basic research, in addition to training the next generation of researchers.

Things are looking good. Ed Storms likes it, and Hal Puthoff wished me luck. Now if Professor Hewitt like it.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 5 14:55:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25099; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:52:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:52:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3E18B84F.86B9E8F7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:57:19 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mitchell Swartz References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tGNC_2.0.586.3TB6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan 05, 2003 Vortex, Thomas Malloy asked: Dr. Mitchell Swartz has just come out with the Spring 2003 issue of Cold Fusion Times. The last e-mail address I have for him is: mica world.std.com I believe a link to his website is available at Dr. Mallove's Infinite Energy website. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 5 23:51:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24580; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:50:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:50:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:05:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Comments on Sticking it Resent-Message-ID: <"LnYMg.0.-_5.kKJ6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:03 PM 1/5/3, thomas malloy wrote: > >Comments on Sticking it >
Jed Posted;
>

>
Did Patterson die? His grandson Reding died suddenly in his mid >40s. I have not heard about Patterson.
>

>
Thanks for calling that to my attention Jed, I'll look into that, >As I recall the grandson took over following James Patterson's death.  >Does anyone have a URL for them? I'm going to do a Google >search.
>

>
Well, I did the Google search. I can't find a website for CETI. I >also found Mitchell Schwartz's site. The only contact method is a >snailmail address. Has anyone heard from him lately?
>

>
I could use a few more persecution stories. All I ask is that the >person in question has real technology. I would suggest the story of Bockris at TAMU. >I went looking for Jeane >Manning's email. The only website I was able to find was the one >at >http://jeanemanning.innoplaza.net . She is pushing her book and >telling about all the marvelous technology that will soon be >available, as seen at that conference in Europe last summer. Tom >Valone was there and he told me that there was nothing ready for >market. As I recall, Tom said that there was nothing new and exciting >either. IMHO, Ms. Manning is another vaporware merchant similar to Jeanne manning is a reporter, not a scientist nor a vaporware merchant. >Peter Linderman.
>

>
Present at the aforementioned conference was J R R Searle. For >those of you who are new to the group, Searle goes around the world >telling people about his marvelous machine which will cure all >diseases, provide pollution free energy, and defeat gravity! When >asked about the whereabouts of the two machines he claims to have >built, he tells people that when he wound them up, they flew away into >space. Q: why can't I get a job like that? A: because I too >ethical!
>

>
     This man has his >snout in the public feed trough, and is therefore subject to the will >of congress.
>

>Does he? As far as I know, the APS is a private organization, and the >University of Maryland is paid for by the state of Maryland. Does Park >earn any federal money?
>

>
Are you sure that it's privately funded? I'd be surprised if it >doesn't get some governmental funding.
>

>
I would be cautious about calling for a Congressional >investigation. Park has right to his opinions, and the right of free >speech. I do not favor investigating people for having unpopular or >controversial opinions, or popular but obnoxious ones.
>

>
I agree with the free speech part. What I'm concerned about is >their thwarting inventors from getting patent protection. As far as >the congressional investigation, I'd like to put him under oath and >ask him about suppression of technology that conflicts with his >paradigm.
>

>
 There are some aspects of the CF story that may call for an >investigation, but not Park's role as far as I know.
I would be curious as to what aspects that may be. >

>
AFAIK, Parksie was responsible for the firing of Tom Valone and >getting his alternative energy conference moved. I seem to recall his >gloating about interfering with Randall Mill's patent. I'd like to get >more examples of people who were denied patent protection. Does >anybody have Mitchell Schwartz's email address?
>

>
Xplorer posted;
>

>

>Furthermore, his unconcious efforts
> are so humorous that I look forward
> to seeing his gaffes each week.
>

>
I agree, the comment about bankrupting the ChiComs by giving them >the plans for that Golden Turkey, the Space Shuttle, was very >humorous.
>

>
[Oh my, you mean you think that 'government scientist'
>
  is not an oxymoron? Go back to sleep...]
>

>
I don't know about that, scientists who work in academia, and are >therefore employed by the government have done some very good basic >research, in addition to training the next generation of >researchers.
>

>
Things are looking good. Ed Storms likes it, and Hal Puthoff >wished me luck. Now if Professor Hewitt like it.
>

>

>

>

> > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 06:47:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25938; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:44:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:44:42 -0800 X-Sent: 6 Jan 2003 14:44:37 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106092457.00b195b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 09:44:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Yet another example of suppressed science In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"jATj-1.0.BL6.QPP6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Jed, I am not familiar with the many alcohol toxicological studies that >have been done, or the medical debate in progress on this, but it >seems to me to be common sense that if heavy drinking, i.e. 5 or more >drinks a day, causes brain damage that is often observed in scans and >autopsies, that a drink or two a day is not likely to cause no brain damage. That does not follow. Biology is not linear. Many chemicals, such as lithium and sodium, are essential to life in low concentration, and toxic at higher concentration. I presume the brain damage is caused by killing individual cells over a short time, because the alcohol does not stay in the body for long. A cell that is killed by a high concentration may be perfectly okay at a much lower concentration. >That is not a major dose reduction. I think it is. It is ~250 ml versus 1 or 2 liters. If you drink or inject 250 ml of salt water with an IV (at the same concentration as blood or ocean water) it will no effect, but 1 or 2 liters sure will! >Further, since a drink or two a day is a serious treat to infants . . . Threat! Yes, that is why I compared it to thalidomide. Both are beneficial but should never be used by people who may become pregnant. (Thalidomide is a much more dire threat.) >The social cost of alcohol is very high, both monitarily and in the pain >and suffering of the innocent and abusers alike. No one disputes that. But pain and suffering does not offset the medical benefits. It isn't an equation, or a choice. We cannot rid society of alcohol no matter what we do, so we might as well use it as medicine. The two uses are unrelated, except that people prone to addiction should never be treated with alcohol, just as people who are allergic to penicillin should never be treated with penicillin. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 07:11:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04168; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:09:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 07:09:32 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:08:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Quantum condition ...what does the term mean? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <753F3448.45095C92.0AB10C99 aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA04116 Resent-Message-ID: <"uClAq2.0.y01.hmP6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/4/2003 11:20:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > > In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:49:25 +1100: > >also causes a quantisation of angular momentum. How the latter is an effect, not a cause. > Oops....that should have been....................^^^ > "However". There are various ways of looking at nature. These concepts are models and do not represent reality. The qunatisation of angular momentum is one way, the deBroglie wavelength forming one around the atom is another. I choose a third because it reveals certain low energy phenomena. Several methods can describe the quantum condition. The question I asked is, why does matter shrink and swell with velocity? Nick Herbert in his writing asks the same quastion. This phenomea does not make common sence. deBroglie stated that the deBroglie wave of matter may be a beat note formed from the Comton wavelength and its doppler shifted reflection. Current models of matter model the matter wave as an infinite series of superimposed waves. The superposition localizes the wavefunction. This method provides no means for reflection, cannot produce a dopper shifted reflection, and cannot generate a beat note. I say the matter wave is confined by relections. These reflections occur when the intensity of the matter wave exceeds the elastic limit of space. The quantum condition and the deBrogle wave spring naturally from the construct. The model also shows that the gravitational and nuclear forces may be directly controlled in a vibrationally reinforced Bose condenstate. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 12:02:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05056; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:57:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:57:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20030106114005.00aa6f20 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:54:13 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: Re: FWD: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030103101350.01f317b0 earthlink.net> <5.1.1.5.2.20030103101350.01f317b0 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10191500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"g8MZ_3.0.wE1.6_T6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10191500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have a more optimistic viewpoint. I build LANS, WANS and the entryways to the Information Superhighway for a living.... The profound thing about the Internet is that nobody owns it, no country owns it, no company owns it. All of Hollywood has mud in their face because a lone teenager in Norway broke the CSS code for DVD Movies. A $200,000 booty is out there right now to break the Microsoft Xbox licensing code. It's only a matter of time. LENR-CANR.ORG can distribute far more papers in 2 months than many of the printed journals have ever done. In my view, The Internet is the Great Equalizer. There is a huge surge of activity developing around Open Source Software and huge resentments building towards the owner of the 94% market share of desktop OSes. I have seen this surge with a -constant and steady velocity- over the last 4 years. It shows no signs of letting up. Bill Gates recently tried to buy himself into the country of India recently and all that did was to rally the OSS forces together. Simultaneously, Microsofts' methods to "partner" with companies to buy, borrow or steal their intellectual property cannot last forever. Their business practices, and their businesss reputation at a minimum, will catch up with them sometime... my prediction is 5 to 10 years before consumers have, and activate a true choice in Desktop OS and business software. Only true innovation will last, and its home is not in Redmond. Steve Krivit Los Angeles, CA USA www.newenergytimes.com www.coldfusioninfo.com --=====================_10191500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I have a more optimistic viewpoint.
I build LANS, WANS and the entryways to the Information Superhighway for a living....

The profound thing about the Internet is that nobody owns it,  no country owns it,  no company owns it.
All of Hollywood has mud in their face because a lone teenager in Norway broke the CSS code for DVD Movies.
A $200,000 booty is out there right now to break the Microsoft Xbox licensing code.  It's only a matter of time.
LENR-CANR.ORG can distribute far more papers in 2 months than many of the printed journals have ever done.

In my view,  The Internet is the Great Equalizer.

There is a huge surge of activity developing around Open Source Software and huge resentments building towards the owner of the 94% market share of desktop OSes.   I have seen this surge with a -constant and steady velocity- over the last 4 years.  It shows no signs of letting up.   Bill Gates recently tried to buy himself into the country of India recently and all that did was to rally the OSS forces together.

Simultaneously,  Microsofts' methods to "partner" with companies to buy, borrow or steal their intellectual property cannot last forever.
Their business practices, and their businesss reputation at a minimum, will catch up with them sometime... my prediction is 5 to 10 years before consumers have, and activate a true choice in Desktop OS and business software.   Only true innovation will last, and its home is not in Redmond.

Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com --=====================_10191500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 12:39:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25501; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:34:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:34:41 -0800 X-Sent: 6 Jan 2003 20:34:34 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106152701.02ef9ef8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:34:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: FWD: The Beginning of the End of Freedom on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030103101350.01f317b0 earthlink.net> <5.1.1.5.2.20030103101350.01f317b0 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Y70wL2.0.ME6.XXU6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>Palladium is only roughly outlined, but what is known indicates that it >>is almost certain to put an end to Open Source software as we know it: >>i.e., Linux. Palladium would also give Microsoft unlimited access to your >>personal internet history, email history, email encryption keys and even >>the contents of your hard drive. Palladium is an ironic name in the context of cold fusion. There is nothing to fear from this project. It is doomed. See: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030102.html People are not so stupid they will fail to see Palladium would give Microsoft too much power. Microsoft is not a force of nature and it does not have any legal power to enforce its desires. Freedom on the Internet may in some danger from overweening government agencies, especially the Justice Department, but it is far from "the beginning of the end." To paraphrase Churchill this is merely the end of the beginning. The unfettered, lawless, wild-west era of the Internet is drawing to a close. That was inevitable. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 13:02:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06134; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:57:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:57:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:57:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: James Patterson Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"efwAb2.0.jV1.-sU6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To paraphrase Mark Twain; George Milley has informed me that the reports of James Patterson's death have been greatly exaggerated. BTW, I just looked at Horace Heffners comments, Please turn off your HTML. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 13:08:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10483; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:05:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:05:11 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Yet another example of suppressed science Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106092457.00b195b8 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"SEqEF.0.YZ2.7-U6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. Jed Writes: >That does not follow. Biology is not linear. Many chemicals, such as >lithium and sodium, are essential to life in low concentration, and toxic >at higher concentration. I presume the brain damage is caused by killing >individual cells over a short time, because the alcohol does not stay in >the body for long. A cell that is killed by a high concentration may be >perfectly okay at a much lower concentration. Poor reasoning. What you should be arguing is that at low concentrations, the brain damaging effects will be much less noticeable over the span of 50 years than the beneficial ones. The solvent is a cell toxin at any level. Horace puns: >Further, since a drink or two a day is a serious treat to infants . . . You bet! It's a nice treat for adults as well... Jed writes: >es that is why I compared it to thalidomide. Both are beneficial >ut should never be used by people who may become pregnant. (Thalidomide is >a much more dire threat.) Thalidomide is an interesting drug. You may notice that thalidomide is being prescribed again. How is that? The problem with thalidomide is not that it causes birth defects. Rather, the problem is that the drug company which manufactured it never bothered to test to see what effect the different isomers had biologically. The left handed variant is quite safe and effective, the right handed one causes birth defects. A racemic mix was provided to patients, hence the problem. Horace writes: >The social cost of alcohol is very high, both monitarily and in the pain >and suffering of the innocent and abusers alike. I agree. I had an acquaintance of mine die of exposure on a street corner after having passed out from drinking. This caused a few of my other friends to join AA, which made his death a little less pointless. Fortunately, my body chemistry is such that if I drink the toxic effects quickly overwhelm the pleasant ones so I have never had an interest in drinking. By the way, while on the topic of suppressed medical research, here's something which is very new, and which can greatly help those suffering from Parkinson's. The illegal drug MDMA ( known as ecstasy ) is apparently very effective for treating the tremors caused by this disease. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993015 Of course, if you believe the NIH, MDMA causes Parkinson's. Ideology is far more important than mere science... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 13:34:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23325; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:29:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:29:09 -0800 X-Sent: 6 Jan 2003 21:28:55 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106162044.0216fe68 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:28:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Yet another example of suppressed science In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106092457.00b195b8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qm2XW2.0.Li5.bKV6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Poor reasoning. What you should be arguing is that at low concentrations, >the brain damaging effects will be much less noticeable over the span of >50 years than the beneficial ones. That may be the case. I wouldn't know. It is also possible that it does not kill any cells at very low concentration. >The solvent is a cell toxin at any level. I don't see how that could be. If it was "any level" than 1 ppm would kill every cell in your body, and even a minute amount would be fatal. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 14:18:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10633; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:05:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:05:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:04:42 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: SETI and information transfer through spacetime To: vortex Message-id: <001301c2b5cf$9dda91c0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2B58C.8F310AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"3l4P03.0._b2.zsV6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2B58C.8F310AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An almost serious thought about "ultimate" information transfer - as = between an advanced early civilization and any nascent later = civilization that might spring up long after the first one has perished = from unavoidable circumstance ( like a mini-black hole wipes out its = sun). If you are an advanced civilization elsewhere and want to make contact = across several billion light years of space-time, what is the most = efficient way? Lets say you compress most of your most important science = into a few gigabytes and want to send it out to every solar system in = the galaxy...just in case. Think about it from an ongoing cost/benefits standpoint, and you will = likely reject the first thing that comes to mind (to the inferior human = mind, that is) - which is to set up some kind of transmitter and = continuously beam out a message. Even if you power the thing from solar = energy, it will have high operating costs for continuous maintenance and = parts replacement that is unacceptable in the multi-billion year time = horizon... For very long-term storage and retrieval, a surprising answer is = conceivable: encode the information as artificial DNA strands using the = four amino acid GATC positions as 4-base words and insert the transfer = strands into a living host along with the necessary strands for = reproduction - using a simple single-celled bacteria or even a virus = spore. This assumes, of course that DNA, as we know it, would have at = least a fighting chance to reproduce everywhere in the galaxy that = carbohydrate chemistry is possible. As much as 90% of the DNA in some cells is not used and has often been = dubbed as "junk DNA." Perhaps it didn't start out that way!=20 As vectors, some varieties of radiation tolerant bacteria can survive = almost unchanged for perhaps billions of years. In fact we have found = some old ones in rocks amber etc. which apparently haven't changed = appreciably over time. Single-cell DNA is reputed to have at least the = equivalent of 6 Gigabytes of transfer capacity, maybe more. If we could = use most of that for coded information, then voila, your transfer vector = is ready. Clone a few kilograms of specially engineered bacteria and put = it into orbit and then disperse it like casting it to the solar winds, = so to speak, then maybe some of it gets all the way across the galaxy = unchanged, lands in somebody else's primordial soup and gets multiplied. = =20 All you have to do is wait for those fools (on earth ?) to figure it = out. Is this too far out even for consideration ? Should SETI should transfer = some of its meager funding to a DNA laboratory to start looking for = hidden messages in old DNA ?=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2B58C.8F310AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

An almost serious thought about "ultimate" information transfer -=20 as between an advanced early civilization and any nascent later=20 civilization that might spring up long after the first one has perished = from=20 unavoidable circumstance ( like a mini-black hole wipes out its = sun).
 
If you are an advanced civilization elsewhere and want to make = contact=20 across several billion light years of space-time, what is the most = efficient=20 way? Lets say you compress most of your most important science into a = few=20 gigabytes and want to send it out to every solar system in the = galaxy...just in=20 case.
 
Think about it from an ongoing cost/benefits standpoint, and = you will=20 likely reject the first thing that comes to mind (to the inferior = human=20 mind, that is) - which is to set up some kind of transmitter and=20 continuously beam out a message. Even if you power the thing from solar = energy,=20 it will have high operating costs for continuous maintenance and parts=20 replacement that is unacceptable in the multi-billion year time = horizon...
 
For very long-term storage and retrieval, a surprising answer is=20 conceivable: encode the information as artificial DNA strands using = the=20 four amino acid GATC positions as 4-base words and insert the transfer = strands=20 into a living host along with the necessary strands for reproduction=20 - using a simple single-celled bacteria or even a virus spore. = This=20 assumes, of course that DNA, as we know it, would have at least a = fighting=20 chance to reproduce everywhere in the galaxy that carbohydrate chemistry = is=20 possible.
 
As much as 90% of the DNA in some cells is not used and has often = been=20 dubbed as "junk DNA." Perhaps it didn't start out that way!
 
As vectors, some varieties of radiation tolerant bacteria can = survive=20 almost unchanged for perhaps billions of years. In fact we have found = some old=20 ones in rocks amber etc. which apparently haven't changed appreciably = over time.=20 Single-cell DNA is reputed to have at least the equivalent of 6 = Gigabytes of=20 transfer capacity, maybe more. If we could use most of that for coded=20 information, then voila, your transfer vector is ready. Clone a few = kilograms of=20 specially engineered bacteria and put it into orbit and then disperse it = like=20 casting it to the solar winds, so to speak, then maybe some of it gets = all the=20 way across the galaxy unchanged, lands in somebody = else's primordial soup=20 and gets multiplied. 
 
All you have to do is wait for those fools (on earth ?) to = figure it=20 out.
 
Is this too far out even for consideration ? Should SETI should = transfer=20 some of its meager funding to a DNA laboratory to start looking for = hidden=20 messages in old DNA ?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2B58C.8F310AC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 22:16:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22986; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:16:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:16:03 -0800 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: Security, Privacy, and Secure money. Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:16:27 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c2b614$50402f20$0501a8c0 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B5D1.421CEF20" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001301c2b5cf$9dda91c0$0a016ea8 cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"TSp_81.0.2d5.Z2d6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B5D1.421CEF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vor I would recommend the new fiction book Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson to anyone looking for a good quasi history of Cryptology. The main points of having security, is privacy. True privacy cannot be accomplished without unbreakable encryption. People who develop new technology leave themselves open to theft of intellectual property, and financial loss from anyone. Best wishes, Matt ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B5D1.421CEF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vor

I would recommend the new fiction = book Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson to anyone looking for a good quasi = history of Cryptology.

 

Th= e main points of having security, is privacy. True privacy cannot be accomplished = without unbreakable encryption.

 

Pe= ople who develop new technology leave themselves open to theft of intellectual = property, and financial loss from anyone.

 

Be= st wishes,

Ma= tt

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2B5D1.421CEF20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 23:34:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21501; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:33:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:33:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001301c2b5cf$9dda91c0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <001301c2b5cf$9dda91c0$0a016ea8 cpq> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:33:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: SETI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"PbNTK3.0.tF5.FBe6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jones Beene posted; > >Is this too far out even for consideration ? Should SETI should >transfer some of its meager funding to a DNA laboratory to start >looking for hidden messages in old DNA ? I love oxymorons, and you've just created a new one, too far out, and for SETI > > BTW, IMHO, time is not a dimension, it is a continium. Yehweh, may his name be blessed, created just so much of it, and when it's gone, it's gone. The difference, between a dimension and a continium is that you can go both ways in a dimension and a continium is a one way ride. This is according to Dewey B Larson's Recriprical Universe. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 6 23:54:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA30166; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:52:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:52:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106162044.0216fe68 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106092457.00b195b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030106162044.0216fe68 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:27:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: alcohol Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"aeGcw1.0.GN7.xSe6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was going to stay out of this, but you've gone too far! >Keith Nagel wrote: and Jed responded > >>Poor reasoning. What you should be arguing is that at low >>concentrations, the brain damaging effects will be much less >>noticeable over the span of 50 years than the beneficial ones. > >That may be the case. I wouldn't know. It is also possible that it >does not kill any cells at very low concentration. > >>The solvent is a cell toxin at any level. > I don't see how that could be. If it was "any level" than 1 ppm would kill every cell in your body, and even a minute amount would be fatal. According to Ted Johnson, who taught me a course in Medical Microbiology, your gut produces 1 ounce of alcohol per day. Solvent? in it's absolute form, yes, at the less than 1! range, no way. I drink about 1 pint of wine, after saying a blessing, of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 01:41:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30965; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:40:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:40:00 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:55:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: James Patterson Resent-Message-ID: <"e22vr1.0.gZ7.l1g6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:57 PM 1/6/3, thomas malloy wrote: >To paraphrase Mark Twain; > >George Milley has informed me that the reports of James Patterson's >death have been greatly exaggerated. > >BTW, I just looked at Horace Heffners comments, Please turn off your HTML. I use Eudora on an old Mac for email, in part because it does not have HTML capabilities and is thus comparatively worm free. The HTML you saw was quoted material (leading ">"), thus it was your HTML, not mine. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 06:45:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA29875; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:43:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:43:25 -0800 Message-ID: <20030107144249.90864.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:42:49 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: alcohol To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"46M9d.0.jI7.CUk6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok... This is the real issue here. We can all agree that alcohol begins to become toxic above about .03% We can also agree that its presence in the body below that concentration may be beneficial. What we are failing to understand is that there are precious few people who can moderate there consumption. So... To tell the masses that alcohol is good for you is simply the act of an irresponsible idiot. The fact is that the majority of people ether become addicted or otherwise abuse it. --- thomas malloy wrote: > I was going to stay out of this, but you've gone too far! > > >Keith Nagel wrote: > > and Jed responded > > > > > >>Poor reasoning. What you should be arguing is that at low > >>concentrations, the brain damaging effects will be much less > >>noticeable over the span of 50 years than the beneficial ones. > > > >That may be the case. I wouldn't know. It is also possible that it > >does not kill any cells at very low concentration. > > > >>The solvent is a cell toxin at any level. > > > I don't see how that could be. If it was "any level" than 1 ppm would > kill every cell in your body, and even a minute amount would be fatal. > > > According to Ted Johnson, who taught me a course in Medical > Microbiology, your gut produces 1 ounce of alcohol per day. Solvent? > in it's absolute form, yes, at the less than 1! range, no way. I > drink about 1 pint of wine, after saying a blessing, of course. > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 06:51:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02459; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:49:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:49:36 -0800 Message-ID: <004201c2b65c$4b2a3920$a68ccbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: Subject: Bedini Device Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:51:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2B65C.4AAD19E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"3uPn73.0.Kc._Zk6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2B65C.4AAD19E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Happy new Year to all on Vortex. Has anyone on the group got any news on what happened to this device? 1) - What happened to John Bedini? 2 ) - Has anyone made the device and tested it ? ( I made one ! ) 3 ) - Results?? 4 ) - Whats the current position on the MEG device. I wondered about these 2 items as they arrive in a Great Hu haa and then = fade away over time to either oblivion or a quagmire of "marketing"/ = "Gimme money" agendas. Hope for some news from anyone. _______________________________________________________ Noel D. Whitney Quantum Leap Limited 52 Watson Road, Killiney, Co Dublin, Ireland. Tel: 00 353 1 2854626 why not visit our website at: www.quantumleap.ie ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2B65C.4AAD19E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Happy new Year to all on = Vortex.
 
Has anyone on the group got any news on = what=20 happened to this device?
 
1) - What happened to John = Bedini?
 
2 ) - Has anyone made the device and = tested it ? (=20 I made one ! )
 
3 ) - Results??
 
4 ) - Whats the current position on the = MEG=20 device.
 
I wondered about these 2 items as = they arrive=20 in a Great Hu haa and then fade away over time to either oblivion or a = quagmire=20 of "marketing"/ "Gimme money" agendas.
 
Hope for some news from = anyone.
_______________________________________________________
Noel = D.=20 Whitney
Quantum Leap Limited
52 Watson Road,
Killiney,
Co=20 Dublin,
Ireland.
Tel: 00 353 1 2854626
why not visit our = website at: www.quantumleap.ie
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C2B65C.4AAD19E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 07:22:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18277; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:21:22 -0800 X-Sent: 7 Jan 2003 15:21:21 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030107095459.02ecb570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:05:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: alcohol In-Reply-To: <20030107144249.90864.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"h04Cz1.0.TT4.o1l6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >What we are failing to understand is that there are precious few people >who can moderate there consumption. I don't think so. As far as I know, addiction is relatively rare, especially considering the number of people exposed to alcohol. In 1997, 421,000 people were diagnosed with a problem, or ~0.2% of the population. See: http://alcoholism.about.com/library/nhosdis1a.htm This number is small compared to the number of behavior related health problems such as obesity or smoking. > So... To tell the masses that alcohol is good for you is simply the act > of an irresponsible idiot. Are you suggesting it would be better to lie to the masses, or cover up experimental data? Do you think the masses are so stupid and ill informed they will never find out on their own? Do you think we can persuade people that generations of folklore are wrong when the data shows it is right? This is an Alice-in-Wonderland approach. We should teach a lie to the public because the truth may make people hurt themselves. This reminds me of the story of the old woman in Victorian England. After hearing about Darwin's new theory she said, "let us hope that is wrong, or if it is right, let us hope it does not become generally known." Facts are facts, and must not be suppressed. The truth is always better than a lie or a cover up. I do not think that people are weaklings who cannot be trusted to live their own lives and make their own decisions, but if they are, then lying to them will surely exacerbate the problem! People will not trust doctors and medical researchers if they find out the truth has been covered up to "protect" the weak-willed public. They will not follow good, honest advice if they think researchers sometimes hide facts, or treat them like children. Furthermore, the public pays for this research. It owns the data, and it has every right to see the results. >The fact is that the majority of people ether become addicted or otherwise >abuse it. If that were true, the majority of people *would be* addicted, because few adults are barred from buying alcohol, and most people have tried it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 09:32:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19172; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:29:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:29:17 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <7d.335215ed.2b4c67e7 aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:27:03 EST Subject: off topic winter picture from PA USA To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7d.335215ed.2b4c67e7_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"943YJ3.0.Ph4.jvm6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_7d.335215ed.2b4c67e7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan 03 in PA enjoy Frank Z --part1_7d.335215ed.2b4c67e7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan 03 in PA


enjoy

Frank Z --part1_7d.335215ed.2b4c67e7_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 13:05:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03284; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:01:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:01:34 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: alcohol Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:18:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030107144249.90864.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"0KofT1.0.Ep.k0q6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Chas etc. I think that alcohol is a toxin at any level, but I think what we can agree on is that the body has mechanisms for handling this toxin. It's worth noting that the organ most responsible for cleaning this toxin out of your body, the liver, is the thing most often destroyed by serious drinking. It could well be the case that a glass of wine a day may improve overall health, for some people. In Europe the attitude towards this is a lot more reasonable than here in the states, so if there is a real benefit that's the place to start looking. France would be an interesting study for those heart disease claims, the traditional French diet is like beating on your heart with the flat side of an axe (grin). But they also have a cultural tradition of moderate wine consumption with meals. An evolutionist may well argue that this is no surprise, if indeed there is a prophylactic effect. Natural selection would tend to favor moderate drinkers with that diet plan... It would be nice to believe, as Jed does, that the American public is a responsible and adult public which can make an educated decision about a subject like this. But of course, they are not. To call them childlike is an insult to children, who tend to exhibit much more common sense than the average adult. That said, it's still a foolish strategy to try to protect them by making the stuff illegal or lying. We tried that early last century with prohibition, and it failed miserably. We are trying that now with other drugs, and the results are truly awful. But don't take my word for it, talk to the people fighting the war on drugs, who know first hand just how bad things have gotten. http://reason.com/0201/fe.ml.battlefield.shtml K. -a little poison now and then makes for agreeable dreams, and much in the end for an agreeable death- Friedrich Nietzsche -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:43 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: alcohol Ok... This is the real issue here. We can all agree that alcohol begins to become toxic above about .03% We can also agree that its presence in the body below that concentration may be beneficial. What we are failing to understand is that there are precious few people who can moderate there consumption. So... To tell the masses that alcohol is good for you is simply the act of an irresponsible idiot. The fact is that the majority of people ether become addicted or otherwise abuse it. --- thomas malloy wrote: > I was going to stay out of this, but you've gone too far! > > >Keith Nagel wrote: > > and Jed responded > > > > > >>Poor reasoning. What you should be arguing is that at low > >>concentrations, the brain damaging effects will be much less > >>noticeable over the span of 50 years than the beneficial ones. > > > >That may be the case. I wouldn't know. It is also possible that it > >does not kill any cells at very low concentration. > > > >>The solvent is a cell toxin at any level. > > > I don't see how that could be. If it was "any level" than 1 ppm would > kill every cell in your body, and even a minute amount would be fatal. > > > According to Ted Johnson, who taught me a course in Medical > Microbiology, your gut produces 1 ounce of alcohol per day. Solvent? > in it's absolute form, yes, at the less than 1! range, no way. I > drink about 1 pint of wine, after saying a blessing, of course. > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 17:37:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11717; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:31:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:31:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:30:24 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: A belated DNA obit: information transfer through spacetime To: vortex Message-id: <001d01c2b6b5$84db5e20$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2B672.764A4120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"oZh561.0.ws2.izt6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2B672.764A4120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since posting an off-the-wall idea yesterday, inspired by a Pacific = Northwest National Laboratory news release about DNA information = transfer, a little bit of synchronicity struck.=20 Well, maybe it wasn't really that unusual since the original poster of = the following thread on Slashdot and myself undoubtedly were inspired = by the same story, but anyway an avalanche of input followed on that = forum (several hundred posts in one day) that can be read at: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=3D03/01/06/0229223&mode=3Dthre= ad&tid=3D126 Some of the following commentary is inspired from this ongoing thread. In typical surfer fashion, from one of these posts I was led to a = long-forgotten reminiscence of Douglas Adams, whose writing went way = beyond far-out humor and inspired many things that once seemed terribly = bizarre then, but are more commonplace today - almost taken for granted. = William Gibson and Robert Forward were Sci-Fi visionaries similarly = gifted with extraordinary foresight, but lacking Adams humor. Thankfully = Gibson is still alive and even has his own internet blog these days.=20 In Douglas Adams' (Douglas Noel Adams=3DDNA) "Hitchhiker's Guide to the = Galaxy", a race of intelligent beings from an advanced civilization = build a supercomputer, "Deep Thought" in order to answer the question, = "What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" DT computed = for 7.5 million years, and finally produced the answer, which is "42".=20 Adams died in May, 2001 but long before, pundits had tried to find some = hidden meaning in "42." I wonder if it had any connection to decoding = the information in (artificial) DNA strands using the four amino acids = known as GATC and their positions as 4-base words. I'll look to see if this question is answered on Slashdot later, as that = thread seems to have struck a giant nerve - a meme nerve, so to speak. = Adams was also an internet pioneer and an "info junkie" who believed = something extraordinary was created when people pooled experiences and = information over the internet. He said part of the internet's = extraordinary power was the fact that it "evolved as an organic entity, = a bottom-up design rather than being hierarchically controlled from = above".=20 The idea that hat humans could have even been "created" to carry a = message across time in DNA, was definitely an implication of D.N.A.'s = work but others have expressed the sentiment in more detail.=20 And for those who want to get really crazy with modern prophecy that = derives from ancient prophecy, and realizing that many ancient = civilizations, especially the ancient Egyptians, believed that humans = came from Orion, consider "42" in that context. M-42 or Messier object = 42, is a nebulae in the Orion constellation. = http://www.m-42.com/images/orionmos.png Was this very spot the remnant of a long lost star in Orion - our = "ancestral" home, or is it all just the further reverberations of some = deeply ingrained meme? What is a meme? First coined by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene," a = meme is the extrasensory counterpart to a gene - a idea, behavior or = skill that can be transferred from one person to another by imitation: = stories, religions, inventions, even music.=20 Many consider the meme to be the most important explanatory concept = since DNA or the gene. The key to appreciating the wide impact of memes, = and what separates them from the traditional theories of cultural = evolution, is *continuity* over time - the meme is a replicator. The = first replicator is of course the gene. The second replicator is the = meme and it exists now NOT for human culture nor for any more immediate = reason than its own survival. It can work with or even against the gene, = because it has crossed over a "complexity barrier" to become its own = self-sustaining entity.=20 Coincidentally or not, Dawkins was a big fan of Adams - and RD's wife, = Lalla Ward, is the former Dr. Who sidekick, the lovely Romana. They met = at a party held by Douglas Adams, who himself was a former Dr. Who = scriptwriter. Also mentioned in the numerous Slashdot threads is a Star Trek episode = "The Chase " in which Dr. Galen, Captain Picards old Archaeology = professor, found genetic data-blocks from various species around the = galaxy stored in the junk portion of each species DNA, including our = own. When a sufficient number of these data blocks were put together it = completed a stellar map, identifying the precise location of the = original origin of life.=20 The jury is still out on whether it was M-42, and even on the Panspermia = Theory [panspermia.org], but many of us believe that there must be lots = of intelligence out there - vastly older and vastly more advance than we = are. >From other posts on Slashdot: "The idea of storing and transmitting = information via DNA was also proposed by Jaron Lanier in the Y2K issue = of the NYT magazine. The NYT was running a contest to come up with a = "time capsule" that would last till Y3K and asked various prominent = scientists, architects etc. how they would make something that would = last and would be easily found by future generations. Lanier proposed = encoding a message in the DNA of cockroaches and then letting them = reproduce naturally in the wild. In a thousand years they'd be = everywhere! (His idea didn't win, a more conventional capsule with = physical records was selected). Also in various science fiction books = (Greg Bear) messages were encoded in people's DNA. This info transfer idea was also proposed by David E.H. Jones in his = Daedalus column (which now appears in Nature). His article on 31 = January, 1985, entitled "Archival Junk" discusses the use of DNA to = encode the essence of human culture in case of another Dark Age. The = article also appears in his compendium, The Further Inventions of = Daedalus (Oxford University Press, 1999)." I love it when synchronicity strikes! Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2B672.764A4120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since posting an off-the-wall idea yesterday, inspired by a Pacific = Northwest National Laboratory news release about DNA information=20 transfer, a little bit of synchronicity struck.
 
Well, maybe it wasn't really that unusual since the original poster = of the=20 following  thread on Slashdot and myself undoubtedly were inspired = by the=20 same story, but anyway an avalanche of input followed on that forum = (several=20 hundred posts in one day) that can be read at:
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=3D= 03/01/06/0229223&mode=3Dthread&tid=3D126
Some of the following commentary is inspired from this ongoing=20 thread.
 
In typical surfer fashion, from one of these posts I was led = to a=20 long-forgotten reminiscence of Douglas Adams, whose writing went way = beyond=20 far-out humor and inspired many things that once seemed terribly bizarre = then,=20 but are more commonplace today - almost taken for granted. William = Gibson and=20 Robert Forward were Sci-Fi visionaries similarly gifted with = extraordinary=20 foresight, but lacking Adams humor. Thankfully Gibson is still alive and = even=20 has his own internet blog these days.
 
In Douglas Adams' (Douglas Noel Adams=3DDNA) "Hitchhiker's Guide to = the=20 Galaxy", a race of intelligent beings from an advanced civilization = build a=20 supercomputer, "Deep Thought" in order to answer the question, = "What is the=20 meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" DT computed for 7.5 = million=20 years, and finally produced the answer, which is "42".
 
Adams died in May, 2001 but long before, pundits had tried to find = some=20 hidden meaning in "42." I wonder if it had any connection to decoding=20 the information in (artificial) DNA strands using the four = amino acids=20 known as GATC and their positions as 4-base words.
 
I'll look to see if this question is answered on Slashdot later, as = that=20 thread seems to have struck a giant nerve - a meme nerve, so to speak. = Adams was=20 also an internet pioneer and an "info junkie" who believed something=20 extraordinary was created when people pooled experiences and information = over=20 the internet.  He said part of the internet's extraordinary power = was the=20 fact that it "evolved as an organic entity, a bottom-up design rather = than being=20 hierarchically controlled from above".
 
The idea that hat humans could have even been "created" to carry a = message=20 across time in DNA, was definitely an implication of D.N.A.'s work but = others=20 have expressed the sentiment in more detail.
 
And for those who want to get really crazy with modern prophecy = that=20 derives from ancient prophecy, and realizing that many ancient=20 civilizations, especially the ancient Egyptians, believed = that humans=20 came from Orion, consider "42" in that context. M-42 or Messier object = 42, is a=20 nebulae in the Orion constellation. http://www.m-42.com/imag= es/orionmos.png
 
Was this very spot the remnant of a long lost star in Orion = - our=20 "ancestral" home, or is it all just the further reverberations of some = deeply=20 ingrained meme?
 
What is a meme? First coined by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish = Gene," a=20 meme is the extrasensory counterpart to a gene - a idea, behavior or = skill that=20 can be transferred from one person to another by imitation: stories, = religions,=20 inventions,  even music.
 
Many consider the meme to be the most important explanatory concept = since=20 DNA or the gene. The key to appreciating the wide impact of memes, and = what=20 separates them from the traditional theories of cultural evolution, is=20 *continuity* over time - the meme is a replicator. The first=20 replicator is of course the gene. The second replicator is the meme and = it=20 exists now NOT for human culture nor for any more immediate reason than = its own=20 survival. It can work with or even against the gene, because it has = crossed over=20 a "complexity barrier" to become its own self-sustaining entity.
 
Coincidentally or not, Dawkins was a big fan of Adams - and = RD's wife,=20 Lalla Ward, is the former Dr. Who sidekick, the lovely Romana. They = met at=20 a party held by Douglas Adams, who himself was a former Dr. Who=20 scriptwriter.
 
Also mentioned in the numerous Slashdot threads is a Star = Trek=20 episode "The Chase " in which Dr. Galen, Captain Picards old = Archaeology=20 professor, found genetic data-blocks from various species around the = galaxy=20 stored in the junk portion of each species DNA, including our own. When = a=20 sufficient number of these data blocks were put together it completed a = stellar=20 map, identifying the precise location of the original origin of life. =
 
The jury is still out on whether it was M-42, and even on the = Panspermia=20 Theory [panspermia.org], but many of us believe that there must be lots = of=20 intelligence out there - vastly older and vastly more advance than we = are.
 
From other posts on Slashdot: "The idea of storing and = transmitting=20 information via DNA was also proposed by Jaron Lanier in the Y2K issue = of the=20 NYT magazine. The NYT was running a contest to come up with a "time = capsule"=20 that would last till Y3K and asked various prominent scientists, = architects etc.=20 how they would make something that would last and would be easily found = by=20 future generations. Lanier proposed encoding a message in the DNA of = cockroaches=20 and then letting them reproduce naturally in the wild. In a thousand = years=20 they'd be everywhere! (His idea didn't win, a more conventional capsule = with=20 physical records was selected). Also in various science fiction books = (Greg=20 Bear) messages were encoded in people's DNA.
 
This info transfer idea was also proposed by David E.H. Jones in = his=20 Daedalus column (which now appears in Nature). His article on 31 = January, 1985,=20 entitled "Archival Junk" discusses the use of DNA to encode the essence = of human=20 culture in case of another Dark Age. The article also appears in his = compendium,=20 The Further Inventions of Daedalus (Oxford University Press, = 1999)."
 
I love it when synchronicity strikes!
 
Jones

 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2B672.764A4120-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 18:30:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08705; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:27:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:27:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c2b6bd$19aae6e0$5e201f41 woh.rr.com> From: "Nicholas Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Return of Sam Faile's radioactive fungi - part3 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:24:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"i4mH42.0.x72.5ou6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What a movie title. Latest report on the apparent alteration of the radioactive decay of Th and U by ascomycete fungi. Best news in this whole affair is that the effect of alteration of count rate can be observed in liquid solutions of yeast and nutrients. Apparently, obscure fungi from hillsides in SW Ohio are not essential. http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi_partIII.htm Enjoy! NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 20:26:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27962; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:24:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:24:08 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: A belated DNA obit: information transfer through spacetime Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:41:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <001d01c2b6b5$84db5e20$0a016ea8 cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"ZeA3f.0.qq6.dVw6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones. Yes, there's nothing preventing us from using this technology right now. The artist Eduardo Kac did just this for an exhibit here at Exit Art Gallery called Genesis. http://www.ekac.org/geninfo2.html This one ought to get Thomas M. all hot and bothered, I think (grin). Unfortunately, it seems that if some intelligence encoded a great book in our genes, it didn't see fit to use a simple code, a cruel god indeed. I think that the genes themselves are the greatest book of all, if we can read and understand them. And here is that book, free for the asking. So dive in, Jones, the treasure hunt is on. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genome/guide/human/ K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 8:30 PM To: vortex Subject: A belated DNA obit: information transfer through spacetime Since posting an off-the-wall idea yesterday, inspired by a Pacific Northwest National Laboratory news release about DNA information transfer, a little bit of synchronicity struck. Well, maybe it wasn't really that unusual since the original poster of the following thread on Slashdot and myself undoubtedly were inspired by the same story, but anyway an avalanche of input followed on that forum (several hundred posts in one day) that can be read at: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/06/0229223&mode=thread&tid= 126 Some of the following commentary is inspired from this ongoing thread. In typical surfer fashion, from one of these posts I was led to a long-forgotten reminiscence of Douglas Adams, whose writing went way beyond far-out humor and inspired many things that once seemed terribly bizarre then, but are more commonplace today - almost taken for granted. William Gibson and Robert Forward were Sci-Fi visionaries similarly gifted with extraordinary foresight, but lacking Adams humor. Thankfully Gibson is still alive and even has his own internet blog these days. In Douglas Adams' (Douglas Noel Adams=DNA) "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", a race of intelligent beings from an advanced civilization build a supercomputer, "Deep Thought" in order to answer the question, "What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?" DT computed for 7.5 million years, and finally produced the answer, which is "42". Adams died in May, 2001 but long before, pundits had tried to find some hidden meaning in "42." I wonder if it had any connection to decoding the information in (artificial) DNA strands using the four amino acids known as GATC and their positions as 4-base words. I'll look to see if this question is answered on Slashdot later, as that thread seems to have struck a giant nerve - a meme nerve, so to speak. Adams was also an internet pioneer and an "info junkie" who believed something extraordinary was created when people pooled experiences and information over the internet. He said part of the internet's extraordinary power was the fact that it "evolved as an organic entity, a bottom-up design rather than being hierarchically controlled from above". The idea that hat humans could have even been "created" to carry a message across time in DNA, was definitely an implication of D.N.A.'s work but others have expressed the sentiment in more detail. And for those who want to get really crazy with modern prophecy that derives from ancient prophecy, and realizing that many ancient civilizations, especially the ancient Egyptians, believed that humans came from Orion, consider "42" in that context. M-42 or Messier object 42, is a nebulae in the Orion constellation. http://www.m-42.com/images/orionmos.png Was this very spot the remnant of a long lost star in Orion - our "ancestral" home, or is it all just the further reverberations of some deeply ingrained meme? What is a meme? First coined by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene," a meme is the extrasensory counterpart to a gene - a idea, behavior or skill that can be transferred from one person to another by imitation: stories, religions, inventions, even music. Many consider the meme to be the most important explanatory concept since DNA or the gene. The key to appreciating the wide impact of memes, and what separates them from the traditional theories of cultural evolution, is *continuity* over time - the meme is a replicator. The first replicator is of course the gene. The second replicator is the meme and it exists now NOT for human culture nor for any more immediate reason than its own survival. It can work with or even against the gene, because it has crossed over a "complexity barrier" to become its own self-sustaining entity. Coincidentally or not, Dawkins was a big fan of Adams - and RD's wife, Lalla Ward, is the former Dr. Who sidekick, the lovely Romana. They met at a party held by Douglas Adams, who himself was a former Dr. Who scriptwriter. Also mentioned in the numerous Slashdot threads is a Star Trek episode "The Chase " in which Dr. Galen, Captain Picards old Archaeology professor, found genetic data-blocks from various species around the galaxy stored in the junk portion of each species DNA, including our own. When a sufficient number of these data blocks were put together it completed a stellar map, identifying the precise location of the original origin of life. The jury is still out on whether it was M-42, and even on the Panspermia Theory [panspermia.org], but many of us believe that there must be lots of intelligence out there - vastly older and vastly more advance than we are. >From other posts on Slashdot: "The idea of storing and transmitting information via DNA was also proposed by Jaron Lanier in the Y2K issue of the NYT magazine. The NYT was running a contest to come up with a "time capsule" that would last till Y3K and asked various prominent scientists, architects etc. how they would make something that would last and would be easily found by future generations. Lanier proposed encoding a message in the DNA of cockroaches and then letting them reproduce naturally in the wild. In a thousand years they'd be everywhere! (His idea didn't win, a more conventional capsule with physical records was selected). Also in various science fiction books (Greg Bear) messages were encoded in people's DNA. This info transfer idea was also proposed by David E.H. Jones in his Daedalus column (which now appears in Nature). His article on 31 January, 1985, entitled "Archival Junk" discusses the use of DNA to encode the essence of human culture in case of another Dark Age. The article also appears in his compendium, The Further Inventions of Daedalus (Oxford University Press, 1999)." I love it when synchronicity strikes! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 7 22:14:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13158; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:13:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:13:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030107144249.90864.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030107144249.90864.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:13:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: alcohol Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"u8uiy3.0.WD3.76y6-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Ok... This is the real issue here. > >We can all agree that alcohol begins to become toxic above about .03% As I recall, .01% is legally drunk, so three times that would be staggering drunk > >We can also agree that its presence in the body below that concentration >may be beneficial. > >What we are failing to understand is that there are precious few people >who can moderate there consumption. So... To tell the masses that >alcohol is good for you is simply the act of an irresponsible idiot. The >fact is that the majority of people ether become addicted or otherwise >abuse it. Nonsense. If I drink more than 2 oz of alcohol I get hung over, this reminds me not to do that again, at least until the next time. But for you to say that I can't control myself enough to drink three times that amount, which would produce an awful hang over is just wrong. That's why there are so few homeless drunks, most of us can handle it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 8 08:41:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14901; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:38:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:38:09 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <1aa.e74ebd2.2b4dadc6 aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:37:26 EST Subject: gravity goes at light speed To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1aa.e74ebd2.2b4dadc6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"wA7HL3.0.ee3.nF57-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1aa.e74ebd2.2b4dadc6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Researchers: Gravity, Light Speed Match By PAUL RECER .c The Associated Press SEATTLE (AP) - Astronomers have concluded that Einstein was right: The speed of gravity does match the speed of light. The astronomers took advantage of a rare planetary alignment to study one of the basic forces of nature. Edward B. Fomalout of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory and Sergei Kopeikin of the University of Missouri, Columbia, clocked the speed of gravity by measuring how light waves from a distant star were warped by the gravity of Jupiter as the planet passed between the Earth and the star. They found that the speed was in agreement with an assumption made by Albert Einstein. The famed scientist, who formulated basic theories about space, time and relativity, thought gravity moved at the speed of light, about 186,000 miles per second. But it was a value that, until now, was unmeasured and only assumed. ``Einstein was right, of course,'' said Fomalout. Although the measurement established a number for one of the last fundamental unknown constants in physics, Fomalout admitted, ``gravity is not well understood.'' The researchers used 10 radio telescopes scattered across the Earth from Hawaii to Germany to precisely measure how light from a distant quasar, a type of star, was bent as it passed by Jupiter on its way to the Earth. Jupiter is in the precise position for such a measurement only once a decade. To make the measurement, the instruments had to detect a minute deflection of the light as it streamed past Jupiter. Fomalout compared the required precision to being able to measure the size of a silver dollar sitting on the moon's surface, or to measuring the width of a human hair from 250 miles away. Craig Hogan, a University of Washington astronomer, said the achievement ``is an important advance for physics,'' but he predicted that new techniques will be developed that will measure gravity's speed even more accurately. ``You can expect a series of experiments now,'' he said. Fomalout and Kopeikin said their results are accurate within about 20 percent. Knowing the precise speed of gravity is important to physicists testing such modern ideas as the superstring, which holds that fundamental particles in the universe are made up of small vibrating loops or strings. It also affects some basic space-time theories. On the Net: American Astronomical Society: http://www.aas.org 01/08/03 03:46 EST Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL. --part1_1aa.e74ebd2.2b4dadc6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Researchers: Gravity, Light Speed Match

By PAUL RECER
.c The Associated Press

SEATTLE (AP) - Astronomers have concluded that Einstein was right: The speed of gravity does match the speed of light.

The astronomers took advantage of a rare planetary alignment to study one of the basic forces of nature. Edward B. Fomalout of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory and Sergei Kopeikin of the University of Missouri, Columbia, clocked the speed of gravity by measuring how light waves from a distant star were warped by the gravity of Jupiter as the planet passed between the Earth and the star.

They found that the speed was in agreement with an assumption made by Albert Einstein. The famed scientist, who formulated basic theories about space, time and relativity, thought gravity moved at the speed of light, about 186,000 miles per second.

But it was a value that, until now, was unmeasured and only assumed.

``Einstein was right, of course,'' said Fomalout.

Although the measurement established a number for one of the last fundamental unknown constants in physics, Fomalout admitted, ``gravity is not well understood.''

The researchers used 10 radio telescopes scattered across the Earth from Hawaii to Germany to precisely measure how light from a distant quasar, a type of star, was bent as it passed by Jupiter on its way to the Earth. Jupiter is in the precise position for such a measurement only once a decade.

To make the measurement, the instruments had to detect a minute deflection of the light as it streamed past Jupiter. Fomalout compared the required precision to being able to measure the size of a silver dollar sitting on the moon's surface, or to measuring the width of a human hair from 250 miles away.

Craig Hogan, a University of Washington astronomer, said the achievement ``is an important advance for physics,'' but he predicted that new techniques will be developed that will measure gravity's speed even more accurately.

``You can expect a series of experiments now,'' he said.

Fomalout and Kopeikin said their results are accurate within about 20 percent.

Knowing the precise speed of gravity is important to physicists testing such modern ideas as the superstring, which holds that fundamental particles in the universe are made up of small vibrating loops or strings. It also affects some basic space-time theories.

On the Net:

American Astronomical Society: http://www.aas.org


  
01/08/03 03:46 EST
   

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL. --part1_1aa.e74ebd2.2b4dadc6_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 8 11:19:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28225; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:14:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:14:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <62037.1.19384.1041885180 mail01.email8.net> References: <62037.1.19384.1041885180 mail01.email8.net> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:10:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Clonaid Rep to speak Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fHlzF2.0.vu6.DY77-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clonaid Rep to speak
Do any of you people have some money you want to loose? Would you like to do your part in destroying both morality and human genetics? If so, you need to help these people.

I received this advertisment and went ballistic. See my resonse below.


Savvy Investors & Traders Seek World-class Education in So. Florida
Meet Bill Johnson at Money World 2003 in Ft Lauderdale Florida
Breaking News: Human Cloning - Exclusive MoneyWorld 2003 Keynote Address by Thomas Kaenzig, Vice President of Clonaid, the company responsible for the first cloned human being, Eve, born December 26th, 2002. Press Conference to discuss birth details and other cloning facts will be held Saturday January 11th at the Broward Convention Center followed by two educational workshops, "Yes to Reproductive Human Cloning".
This controversial new human cloning technology will be explained in detail to clear up rumors and misconceptions that confuse the public. Benefits of the technology with regards to both therapeutic human cloning and reproductive human cloning will be explained in a power point presentation. In his speech Thomas Kaenzig will focus on reproductive human cloning and will encompass typical case scenarios for the application of this new cloning technology. Investment opportunities for venture capitalists and investors will be discussed as well. Cloning has far reaching effects for the human race. Come and hear how cloning will change the world. www.money-expo.com


What moron invited that Bozo from Clonaid to speak? Haven't you people heard about the man that they scamed out of $500,000? Wake up and smell the coffee! Dolly the sheep was one lamb that lived, but there were lots of lambs that didn't. Dolly is aging at the same rate as the original sheep. Do you think that Cloneaid will address that matter? Have you noticed their refusal to make genetic material from the mother and baby available?  How many people do you think will pay the kind of money that this is going to cost just to endure the heartache of a miscarriage?

Then there are the moral implications. The Raliens are the modern equivalent of the Nazi's!
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 8 11:34:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02136; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:29:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:29:14 -0800 From: Enoch Soames To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Clonaid Rep to speak Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:28:50 -0500 Message-ID: References: <62037.1.19384.1041885180 mail01.email8.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RauVn.0.IX.Am77-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is there some way you can change your emailing software to have it send messages in text format instead of the html rubbish, below? Your message would have a better chance of being read. I for one will never know what valuable things you had to say, since I refuse to waste my time wading through the rubbish to pull out your pearls of wisdom. > >Clonaid Rep to speak >
Do any of you people have some money you want to loose? Would you >like to do your part in destroying both morality and human genetics? >If so, you need to help these people.
>

>
I received this advertisment and went >ballistic. See my resonse below.
>

>
size="+3">
>
Savvy >Investors & Traders Seek World-class Education in So. Florida
>Meet Bill Johnson at Money World 2003 in Ft Lauderdale >Florida
>
>
Breaking News: Human Cloning - >Exclusive MoneyWorld 2003 Keynote Address by Thomas Kaenzig, Vice >President of Clonaid, the company responsible for the first cloned >human being, Eve, born December 26th, 2002. Press Conference to >discuss birth details and other cloning facts will be held Saturday >January 11th at the Broward Convention Center followed by two >educational workshops, "Yes to Reproductive Human >Cloning".
>
>
This controversial new human cloning >technology will be explained in detail to clear up rumors and >misconceptions that confuse the public. Benefits of the technology >with regards to both therapeutic human cloning and reproductive human >cloning will be explained in a power point presentation. In his speech >Thomas Kaenzig will focus on reproductive human cloning and will >encompass typical case scenarios for the application of this new >cloning technology. Investment opportunities for venture capitalists >and investors will be discussed as well. Cloning has far reaching >effects for the human race. Come and hear how cloning will change the >world. www.money-expo.com
>

>

>
What moron invited that Bozo from Clonaid to speak? Haven't you >people heard about the man that they scamed out of $500,000? Wake up >and smell the coffee! Dolly the sheep was one lamb that lived, but >there were lots of lambs that didn't. Dolly is aging at the same rate >as the original sheep. Do you think that Cloneaid will address that >matter? Have you noticed their refusal to make genetic material from >the mother and baby available?  How many people do you think will >pay the kind of money that this is going to cost just to endure the >heartache of a miscarriage?
>

>
Then there are the moral implications. The Raliens are the modern >equivalent of the Nazi's!
> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 8 13:31:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27567; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:27:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:27:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:26:05 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF To: vortex Message-id: <001401c2b75c$8e1c78a0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2B719.7F6B5080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"7SxpZ3.0.fk6.pU97-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2B719.7F6B5080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI - in case you missed it... Here is a brief note regarding a recent, possibly overlooked, = experimental result that might have some relevance to CANR and cold = fusion.=20 In the original CF experiments, back when nuclear physicists were still = trying to shoe-horn the findings into known hot fusion criteria, there = was a lot of talk about the role of "effective" confinement pressure on = a D-loaded Pd matrix - which Pons & Fleischmann (P&F) were reputed to = have said was equivalent to D2 pressures of about 8x10^26 atm. Later, I = believe that more exact experiments were said to have shown that the = corresponding effective pressure is a more "moderate" 150,000 equivalent = atmospheres. Still mind-boggling, but even so nuclear physicists = contended it was not enough to induce fusion under the Lawson criteria = at the moderate temperatures of an electrolytic cell. Is that a fair = assessment? At the same time there was hypothetical talk indicating the high = effective pressure of H2 or D2 in a loaded matrix might cause the loaded = Pd matrix to become superconductive at above room temperature. If this = happened then presumably the Lawson criteria wouldn=92t matter because = the paired-up electrons, the Cooper pairs, would somehow act more like a = muon and less like a bare electron and catalyze D+D fusion in the = absence of high kinetic energy in the entrained D. It appears that = muon-catalyzed fusion is generally accepted as fact by all. If any researcher has been able to actually prove HTSC in a loaded Pd = matrix, they didn't get very much recognition for it, as I have been = unable to find the text of such an experiment- although = www.lenr-canr.org and Britz do indeed have old titles that mention the = word "superconductivity" but no text. Was it ever proven? If so, why so = little info about it? I don=92t know the status of these theories now, nor whether or not any = of this still matters to anyone - that is, if the matrix becomes = superconductive or not, but if it does, here is a bit of further = information from a few months ago that might be of interest - inasmuch = as Lithium is often used as the electrolyte of choice in CF experiments = (lithium hydroxide) and this study looks more like proof and less like = conjecture... Abstract: Lithium joins the superconductors 14 October 2002 Japanese physicists have shown that lithium becomes superconducting when = it is subjected to pressures in excess of 30 gigapascals or 300,000 atm. = Katsuya Shimizu of Osaka University and co- workers at Osaka and the = University of Tokyo have shown that lithium loses all resistance to = electric current at this pressure (Shimizu et al. 2002 Nature 419 597). = END The $64 question - when lithium ions migrate out of the electrolyte and = into the Pd-interfacial matrix of CF electrodes, do the lithium ions = ever experience an effective pressures of 300,000 atm. (double that of = deuterium, but it is a larger atom) and, furthermore, if so- is it the = resulting Cooper pairs which then become the important ingredient to = catalyze D+D fusion, just as muons have been proven to do?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2B719.7F6B5080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI - in case you missed it...

Here is a brief note regarding a recent, possibly overlooked,=20 experimental result that might have some relevance to CANR and cold = fusion.

In the original CF experiments, back when nuclear = physicists were=20 still trying to shoe-horn the findings into known hot fusion criteria, = there was=20 a lot of talk about the role of "effective" confinement pressure on a = D-loaded=20 Pd matrix - which Pons & Fleischmann (P&F) were reputed to have = said was=20 equivalent to D2 pressures of about 8x10^26 atm. Later, I believe that = more=20 exact experiments were said to have shown that the corresponding = effective=20 pressure is a more "moderate" 150,000 equivalent atmospheres. Still=20 mind-boggling, but even so nuclear physicists contended it was not = enough to=20 induce fusion under the Lawson criteria at the moderate temperatures of = an=20 electrolytic cell. Is that a fair assessment?

At the same time there was hypothetical talk indicating the high = effective pressure of H2 or D2 in a loaded matrix might cause the loaded = Pd=20 matrix to become superconductive at above room temperature. If this = happened=20 then presumably the Lawson criteria wouldn=92t matter because the = paired-up=20 electrons, the Cooper pairs, would somehow act more like a muon and less = like a=20 bare electron and catalyze D+D fusion in the absence of high kinetic = energy in=20 the entrained D. It appears that muon-catalyzed fusion is generally = accepted as=20 fact by all.

If any researcher has been able to actually prove HTSC in a = loaded Pd=20 matrix, they didn't get very much recognition for it, as I have been = unable to=20 find the text of such an experiment- although www.lenr-canr.org  and = Britz do=20 indeed have old titles that mention the word "superconductivity" but no = text.=20 Was it ever proven? If so, why so little info about it?

I don=92t know the status of these theories now, nor whether or = not any of=20 this still matters to anyone - that is, if the matrix becomes=20 superconductive or not, but if it does, here is a bit of further = information=20 from a few months ago that might be of interest - inasmuch as Lithium is = often=20 used as the electrolyte of choice in CF experiments (lithium hydroxide) = and this=20 study looks more like proof and less like conjecture... Abstract:

Lithium joins the superconductors

14 October 2002

Japanese physicists have shown that lithium becomes superconducting = when it=20 is subjected to pressures in excess of 30 gigapascals or 300,000 atm. = Katsuya=20 Shimizu of Osaka University and co- workers at Osaka and the University = of Tokyo=20 have shown that lithium loses all resistance to electric current at this = pressure (Shimizu et al. 2002 Nature 419 597). END

The $64 question - when lithium ions migrate out of the = electrolyte and=20 into the Pd-interfacial matrix of CF electrodes, do the lithium=20 ions ever experience an effective pressures of 300,000 atm. (double = that of=20 deuterium, but it is a larger atom) and, furthermore, if so-=20 is it  the resulting Cooper pairs which then become the = important=20 ingredient to catalyze D+D fusion, just as muons have been proven to do? =

 

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2B719.7F6B5080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 8 15:36:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27842; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:30:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:30:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1CA6A8.FC617687 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:31:51 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF References: <001401c2b75c$8e1c78a0$0a016ea8 cpq> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B5B63E68602A0B08FC4E29E1" Resent-Message-ID: <"NUVOc2.0.no6.UIB7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B5B63E68602A0B08FC4E29E1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A8C904BB5BD1B7F20CA4330D" --------------A8C904BB5BD1B7F20CA4330D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Jones. You have addressed a misconception many people have about materials. When P-F talked about an effective pressure of 10^26 atm, they were actually talking about chemical activity and should have said so. Electrolytic action does not produce any actual pressure over about 1 atm. Only an increased activity is generated, which is expressed as atm. when a permanent gas is involved. This definition of activity has caused much confusion in people not used to the conventions used in thermodynamics. When an ion enters a lattice, it does not experience pressure in the usual sense because its environment has been modified by changes in electron structure. This is a very different effect from that produced by applying high external pressure. When the ion returns to a gas within cracks, pressures are created, but these are quickly reduced by mechanical failure of the surrounding material. . Beta-PdD is known to become a superconductor near 10 K when highly loaded. The only way a better superconductor can exist in the Pd-D system is for a different phase to form, either as an alloy with some impurity or by forming a higher hydride, such as PdD2. It is very unlikely that any metallic phase can be superconducting at room temperature, based on experience and Cooper-pair theory. This temperature seems to be available only to complex oxides and organic lattices. I suggest any speculation based on "effective" pressure is a waste of time. In addition, none of the speculation about room temperature superconductivity is based on any measurement that does not have a better explanation. I will be out of town until 1/20/03 so do not expect prompt reply. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > FYI - in case you missed it... > > Here is a brief note regarding a recent, possibly > overlooked, experimental result that might have some > relevance to CANR and cold fusion. > > In the original CF experiments, back when nuclear > physicists were still trying to shoe-horn the findings > into known hot fusion criteria, there was a lot of talk > about the role of "effective" confinement pressure on a > D-loaded Pd matrix - which Pons & Fleischmann (P&F) were > reputed to have said was equivalent to D2 pressures of > about 8x10^26 atm. Later, I believe that more exact > experiments were said to have shown that the corresponding > effective pressure is a more "moderate" 150,000 equivalent > atmospheres. Still mind-boggling, but even so nuclear > physicists contended it was not enough to induce fusion > under the Lawson criteria at the moderate temperatures of > an electrolytic cell. Is that a fair assessment? > > At the same time there was hypothetical talk indicating > the high effective pressure of H2 or D2 in a loaded matrix > might cause the loaded Pd matrix to become superconductive > at above room temperature. If this happened then > presumably the Lawson criteria wouldnt matter because the > paired-up electrons, the Cooper pairs, would somehow act > more like a muon and less like a bare electron and > catalyze D+D fusion in the absence of high kinetic energy > in the entrained D. It appears that muon-catalyzed fusion > is generally accepted as fact by all. > > If any researcher has been able to actually prove HTSC in > a loaded Pd matrix, they didn't get very much recognition > for it, as I have been unable to find the text of such an > experiment- although www.lenr-canr.org and Britz do > indeed have old titles that mention the word > "superconductivity" but no text. Was it ever proven? If > so, why so little info about it? > > I dont know the status of these theories now, nor whether > or not any of this still matters to anyone - that is, if > the matrix becomes superconductive or not, but if it does, > here is a bit of further information from a few months ago > that might be of interest - inasmuch as Lithium is often > used as the electrolyte of choice in CF experiments > (lithium hydroxide) and this study looks more like proof > and less like conjecture... Abstract: > > Lithium joins the superconductors > > 14 October 2002 > > Japanese physicists have shown that lithium becomes > superconducting when it is subjected to pressures in > excess of 30 gigapascals or 300,000 atm. Katsuya Shimizu > of Osaka University and co- workers at Osaka and the > University of Tokyo have shown that lithium loses all > resistance to electric current at this pressure (Shimizu > et al. 2002 Nature 419 597). END > > The $64 question - when lithium ions migrate out of the > electrolyte and into the Pd-interfacial matrix of CF > electrodes, do the lithium ions ever experience an > effective pressures of 300,000 atm. (double that of > deuterium, but it is a larger atom) and, furthermore, if > so- is it the resulting Cooper pairs which then become > the important ingredient to catalyze D+D fusion, just as > muons have been proven to do? > > --------------A8C904BB5BD1B7F20CA4330D Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Jones.
You have addressed a misconception many people have about materials.  When P-F talked about an effective pressure of 10^26 atm, they were actually talking about chemical activity and should have said so.   Electrolytic action does not produce any actual pressure over about 1 atm. Only an increased activity is generated, which is expressed as atm. when a permanent gas is involved.  This definition of activity has caused much confusion in people not used to the conventions used in thermodynamics.  When an ion enters a lattice, it does not experience pressure in the usual sense because its environment has been modified by changes in electron structure.  This is a very different effect from that produced by applying  high external pressure.  When the ion returns to a gas within cracks, pressures are created, but these are quickly reduced by mechanical failure of the surrounding material.

. Beta-PdD is known to become a superconductor near 10 K when highly loaded.  The only way a better superconductor can exist in the Pd-D system is for a different phase to form, either as an alloy with some impurity or by forming a higher hydride, such as PdD2.  It is very unlikely that any metallic phase can be superconducting at room temperature, based on experience and Cooper-pair theory.  This temperature seems to be available only to complex oxides and organic lattices.  I suggest any speculation  based on  "effective" pressure is a waste of time.  In addition, none of the speculation about room temperature superconductivity is based on any measurement that does not have a better explanation.

I will be out of town until 1/20/03 so do not expect prompt reply.

Regards,
Ed

Jones Beene wrote:

FYI - in case you missed it...

Here is a brief note regarding a recent, possibly overlooked, experimental result that might have some relevance to CANR and cold fusion.

In the original CF experiments, back when nuclear physicists were still trying to shoe-horn the findings into known hot fusion criteria, there was a lot of talk about the role of "effective" confinement pressure on a D-loaded Pd matrix - which Pons & Fleischmann (P&F) were reputed to have said was equivalent to D2 pressures of about 8x10^26 atm. Later, I believe that more exact experiments were said to have shown that the corresponding effective pressure is a more "moderate" 150,000 equivalent atmospheres. Still mind-boggling, but even so nuclear physicists contended it was not enough to induce fusion under the Lawson criteria at the moderate temperatures of an electrolytic cell. Is that a fair assessment?

At the same time there was hypothetical talk indicating the high effective pressure of H2 or D2 in a loaded matrix might cause the loaded Pd matrix to become superconductive at above room temperature. If this happened then presumably the Lawson criteria wouldnt matter because the paired-up electrons, the Cooper pairs, would somehow act more like a muon and less like a bare electron and catalyze D+D fusion in the absence of high kinetic energy in the entrained D. It appears that muon-catalyzed fusion is generally accepted as fact by all.

If any researcher has been able to actually prove HTSC in a loaded Pd matrix, they didn't get very much recognition for it, as I have been unable to find the text of such an experiment- although www.lenr-canr.org  and Britz do indeed have old titles that mention the word "superconductivity" but no text. Was it ever proven? If so, why so little info about it?

I dont know the status of these theories now, nor whether or not any of this still matters to anyone - that is, if the matrix becomes superconductive or not, but if it does, here is a bit of further information from a few months ago that might be of interest - inasmuch as Lithium is often used as the electrolyte of choice in CF experiments (lithium hydroxide) and this study looks more like proof and less like conjecture... Abstract:

Lithium joins the superconductors

14 October 2002

Japanese physicists have shown that lithium becomes superconducting when it is subjected to pressures in excess of 30 gigapascals or 300,000 atm. Katsuya Shimizu of Osaka University and co- workers at Osaka and the University of Tokyo have shown that lithium loses all resistance to electric current at this pressure (Shimizu et al. 2002 Nature 419 597). END

The $64 question - when lithium ions migrate out of the electrolyte and into the Pd-interfacial matrix of CF electrodes, do the lithium ions ever experience an effective pressures of 300,000 atm. (double that of deuterium, but it is a larger atom) and, furthermore, if so- is it  the resulting Cooper pairs which then become the important ingredient to catalyze D+D fusion, just as muons have been proven to do?
 
 

--------------A8C904BB5BD1B7F20CA4330D-- --------------B5B63E68602A0B08FC4E29E1 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="storms2.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="storms2.vcf" begin:vcard n:; tel;work:505 988 3673 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html org:Energy K. System adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html version:2.1 email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Edmund Storms end:vcard --------------B5B63E68602A0B08FC4E29E1-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 8 19:10:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17525; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:09:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:09:15 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <1bd.1a8bd472.2b4e41af aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:08:31 EST Subject: Re: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1bd.1a8bd472.2b4e41af_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"yf83x1.0.fH4.QVE7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1bd.1a8bd472.2b4e41af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/8/03 4:31:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes: > If any researcher has been able to actually prove HTSC in a loaded Pd > matrix, they didn't get very much recognition for it, as I have been unable > to find the text of such an experiment- although http://www.lenr-canr.org/ > and Britz do indeed have old titles that mention the word > "superconductivity" but no text. Was it ever proven? If so, why so little > info about it? > > Cenani in Italy found resistivity reduction in palladium. Miley did the same. It is beleived that structures within the palladium go superconductive producing this reduction in resistivity. Celani I believe it very much. Frank Z --part1_1bd.1a8bd472.2b4e41af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/8/03 4:31:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


If any researcher has been able to actually prove HTSC in a loaded Pd matrix, they didn't get very much recognition for it, as I have been unable to find the text of such an experiment- although http://www.lenr-canr.org/  and Britz do indeed have old titles that mention the word "superconductivity" but no text. Was it ever proven? If so, why so little info about it?



Cenani in Italy found resistivity reduction in palladium.  Miley did the same.  It is beleived that structures within the palladium go superconductive producing this reduction in resistivity.

Celani

I believe it very much.

Frank Z --part1_1bd.1a8bd472.2b4e41af_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 02:06:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA02265; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:05:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:05:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c2b7c6$a878eca0$198e209a ggrf30j> From: "Nick Palmer" To: Subject: Speed of gravity "measured" Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:05:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Resent-Message-ID: <"l7RKI.0.DZ.EbK7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taken from Spacedaily Nick Palmer ================================================= http://www.spacedaily.com/news/gravity-03a.html Speed Of Gravity Measured Charlottesville - Jan 09, 2003 Taking advantage of a rare cosmic alignment, scientists have made the first measurement of the speed at which the force of gravity propagates, giving a numerical value to one of the last unmeasured fundamental constants of physics. "Newton thought that gravity's force was instantaneous. Einstein assumed that it moved at the speed of light, but until now, no one had measured it," said Sergei Kopeikin, a physicist at the University of Missouri-Columbia. "We have determined that gravity's propagation speed is equal to the speed of light within an accuracy of 20 percent," said Ed Fomalont, an astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO) in Charlottesville, VA. The scientists presented their findings to the American Astronomical Society's meeting in Seattle, WA. The landmark measurement is important to physicists working on unified field theories that attempt to combine particle physics with Einstein's general theory of relativity and electromagnetic theory. "Our measurement puts some strong limits on the theories that propose extra dimensions, such as superstring theory and brane theories," Kopeikin said. "Knowing the speed of gravity can provide an important test of the existence and compactness of these extra dimensions," he added. Superstring theory proposes that the fundamental particles of nature are not pointlike, but rather incredibly small loops or strings, whose properties are determined by different modes of vibration. Branes (a word derived from membranes) are multidimensional surfaces, and some current physical theories propose space-time branes embedded to five dimensions. The scientists used the National Science Foundation's Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA), a continent-wide radio-telescope system, along with the 100-meter radio telescope in Effelsberg, Germany, to make an extremely precise observation when the planet Jupiter passed nearly in front of a bright quasar on September 8, 2002. The observation recorded a very slight "bending" of the radio waves coming from the background quasar by the gravitational effect of Jupiter. The bending resulted in a small change in the quasar's apparent position in the sky. "Because Jupiter is moving around the Sun, the precise amount of the bending depends slightly on the speed at which gravity propagates from Jupiter," Kopeikin said. Jupiter, the largest planet in the Solar System, only passes closely enough to the path of radio waves from a suitably bright quasar about once a decade for such a measurement to be made, the scientists said. The once-in-a-decade celestial alignment was the last in a chain of events that made measuring the speed of gravity possible. The others included a chance meeting of the two scientists in 1996, a breakthrough in theoretical physics and the development of specialized techniques that enabled the extremely precise measurement to be made. "No one had tried to measure the speed of gravity before because most physicists had assumed that the only way to do so was to detect gravitational waves," Kopeikin recalled. However, in 1999, Kopeikin extended Einstein's theory to include the gravitational effects of a moving body on light and radio waves. The effects depended on the speed of gravity. He realized that if Jupiter moved nearly in front of a star or radio source, he could test his theory. Kopeikin studied the predicted orbit of Jupiter for the next 30 years and discovered that the giant planet would pass closely enough in front of the quasar J0842+1835 in 2002. However, he quickly realized that the effect on the quasar's apparent position in the sky attributable to the speed of gravity would be so small that the only observational technique capable of measuring it was Very Long Baseline Interferometry (VLBI), the technique embodied in the VLBA. Kopeikin then contacted Fomalont, a leading expert in VLBI and an experienced VLBA observer. "I immediately realized the importance of an experiment that could make the first measurement of a fundamental constant of nature," Fomalont said. "I decided that we had to give this our best shot," he added. To get the required level of precision, the two scientists added the Effelsberg telescope to their observation. The wider the separation between two radio-telescope antennas, the greater is the resolving power, or ability to see fine detail, achievable. The VLBA includes antennas on Hawaii, the continental United States, and St. Croix in the Caribbean. An antenna on the other side of the Atlantic added even more resolving power. "We had to make a measurement with about three times more accuracy than anyone had ever done, but we knew, in principle, that it could be done," Fomalont said. The scientists tested and refined their techniques in "dry runs," then waited for Jupiter to make its pass in front of the quasar. The wait included considerable nail-biting. Equipment failure, bad weather, or an electromagnetic storm on Jupiter itself could have sabotaged the observation. However, luck held out and the scientists' observations at a radio frequency of 8 GigaHertz produced enough good data to make their measurement. They achieved a precision equal to the width of a human hair seen from 250 miles away. "Our main goal was to rule out an infinite speed for gravity, and we did even better. We now know that the speed of gravity is probably equal to the speed of light, and we can confidently exclude any speed for gravity that is over twice that of light," Fomalont said. Most scientists, Kopeikin said, will be relieved that the speed of gravity is consistent with the speed of light. "I believe this experiment sheds new light on fundamentals of general relativity and represents the first of many more studies and observations of gravitation which are currently possible because of the enormously high precision of VLBI. We have a lot more to learn about this intriguing cosmic force and its relationship to the other forces in nature," Kopeikin said. This is not the first time that Jupiter has played a part in producing a measurement of a fundamental physical constant. In 1675, Olaf Roemer, a Danish astronomer working at the Paris Observatory, made the first reasonably accurate determination of the speed of light by observing eclipses of one of Jupiter's moons. Related Links National Radio Astronomy Observatory SpaceDaily Search SpaceDaily Subscribe To SpaceDaily Express From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 05:39:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03722; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:37:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:37:55 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:38:28 -0800 Subject: Orville the Mouse flies on a Lifter! From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA03666 Resent-Message-ID: <"FhmML.0.4w.piN7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, I have just updated my web site with a great event : On January 8th, 2003, ORVILLE, the mouse, has done successfully two historical flights as a test pilot of the Lifter "Maximus". ORVILLE is now the 1st Worldwide "Electronaut " pilot which has done a flight aboard a propellantless electrokinetic craft. This is a great event Worldwide, Orville, the mouse, is now the 1st Worldwide "Electronaut" Pilot ... January 8th, 2003 has been an historical moment... You will find all the photos and five videos about this historical event in my web site at : http://lifterproject.online.fr/orville/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ Le 8 Janvier 2003, ORVILLE, la souris, a effectu avec succs, deux vols historiques comme pilote d'essai bord du Lifter "Maximus". ORVILLE est maintenant le 1er pilote "Electronaute " du monde qui a effectu un vol bord d'un vaisseau propulsion lectrocintique. C'est un grand vnement Mondial, Orville, la souris, est maintenant le 1er pilote d'essai "Electronaute" du Monde... Le 8 Janvier 2003 a t un moment historique... Vous trouverez toutes les photos et cinq vidos de cet vnement historique sur mon site : http://lifterproject.online.fr/orville/indexfr.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: JNaudin509 aol.com Main Web site : http://www.jlnlabs.org Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr Site Lifter France # 1 : http://lifterproject.online.fr/ Site Lifter France # 2 : http://jlnlabs.multimania.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 06:32:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27955; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:29:57 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:29:23 EST Subject: Re: Speed of gravity "measured" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f4.275fd260.2b4ee143_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"KEBC-.0.iq6.bTO7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_f4.275fd260.2b4ee143_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 1/9/03 8:17:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 editor infinite-energy.com writes: > Dr. Tom Van Flandern's press release attacking the ludicrous "speed of > gravity" results reported and cheered over by the buffoons in the news > media. Yet another example of how the Einstein-fawning media are quick to > elevate garbage supposedly "ratifying" Einstein to high status (much as=20 > they > elevated MIT/Caltech etc results against cold fusion back in 1989). >=20 Gene, this is not ludicrous. You sounds ludicrous when you fight this. Many= =20 phenomena point to the fact that the speed of gravity is not infinite. One=20 is this measurement. A second is the measurement of the gravitomagnetic=20 field of the earth by a satellite. My Gravitomag= netic work You see the magnetic, the gravito magnetic, and the nuclear-spin orbit force= s=20 are required to conserve momentum in a system in which the original force=20 propagates at light speed. The existance of these induced forces is a=20 compelling arguement that the forces propagate at light speed. The error=20 with the current models of matter is that this line of reasoning was not=20 extended to the matter wavefunction. I believe that disturbances in the=20 matter wave also propagate at light speed. The extension of Einstein's ligh= t=20 speed argument to the matter wave allows for low level nuclear reactions and= =20 the control of the gravitational field. I've read Storm's argument that superconductivity does not exist in a pall adium. This is true and false. Normal superconductivy does not. =20 Hyper-conductivity, which is superconductivity at a specific frequency, does= .=20 The frequency of the superconductivity depends of the size of the=20 condensate. The frequency is one megahertz-meter. =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 Who'= s Who of Cold Fusion=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2=20 Frank Znidarsic --part1_f4.275fd260.2b4ee143_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 1/9/03= 8:17:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, editor infinite-energy.com writes:


Dr. Tom Van Flandern's press re= lease attacking the ludicrous "speed of
gravity" results reported and cheered over by the  buffoons in the news=
media.  Yet another example of how the Einstein-fawning media are quick= to
elevate garbage supposedly "ratifying" Einstein to high status (much as they=
elevated MIT/Caltech etc results against cold fusion back in 1989).


Gene, this is not ludicrous. You sounds ludicrous when you fight this. = Many phenomena point to the fact that the speed of gravity is not infinite.=   One is this measurement.  A second is the measurement of the gra= vitomagnetic field of the earth by a satellite.

My Gravitomag= netic work

You see the magnetic, the gravito magnetic, and the nuclear-spin orbit force= s are required to conserve momentum in a system in which the original force=20= propagates at light speed.  The existance of these induced forces is&nb= sp; a compelling arguement that the forces propagate at light speed.  T= he error with the current models of matter is that this line of reasoning wa= s not extended to the matter wavefunction.  I believe that disturbances= in the matter wave also propagate at light speed.  The extension of Ei= nstein's light speed argument to the matter wave allows for low level nuclea= r reactions and the control of the gravitational field.

I've read Storm's argument that superconductivity does not exist in a pallad= ium.  This is true and false.  Normal superconductivy does not.&nb= sp; Hyper-conductivity, which is superconductivity at a specific frequency,=20= does.  The frequency of the superconductivity depends of the size of th= e condensate.  The frequency is one megahertz-meter.

=E2=80=A2=C2=A0 Who'= s Who of Cold Fusion=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2


Frank Znidarsic --part1_f4.275fd260.2b4ee143_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 06:40:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30554; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:37:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:37:51 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <199.139a2a0e.2b4ee2f7 aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:36:39 EST Subject: Re: Speed of gravity "measured" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_199.139a2a0e.2b4ee2f7_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"yU3gs1.0.ET7._aO7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_199.139a2a0e.2b4ee2f7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 8:17:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, editor infinite-energy.com writes: > > Dr. Tom Van Flandern's press release attacking the ludicrous "speed of > gravity" results reported and cheered over by the buffoons in the news > media. Yet another example of how the Einstein-fawning media are quick to > elevate garbage supposedly "ratifying" Einstein to high status (much as > they > elevated MIT/Caltech etc results against cold fusion back in 1989). > > I spoke at COFE. I presented my arguments that induced fields must exist in systems where the original field propagates at light speed. I went on to show that the range and strength of the induced fields were modified in a Bose condensate. I presneted my therom. "The nuclear and gravitational constants of the motion tend toward those of the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter." I built up my arguments from the principle of the conservation of momentum and the fact that disturbances in the fields propagate at light speed. During the question an answer period it was said, "Your arguments are all wrong, we have just heard proof that gravity propagates at infinite velocity." Several others agreeded. I thought, "It's no wonder that this show was kicked out of the state department." Frank Znidarsic --part1_199.139a2a0e.2b4ee2f7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 8:17:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, editor infinite-energy.com writes:



Dr. Tom Van Flandern's press release attacking the ludicrous "speed of
gravity" results reported and cheered over by the  buffoons in the news
media.  Yet another example of how the Einstein-fawning media are quick to
elevate garbage supposedly "ratifying" Einstein to high status (much as they
elevated MIT/Caltech etc results against cold fusion back in 1989).



I spoke at COFE.  I presented my arguments that induced fields must exist in systems where the original field propagates at light speed.  I went on to show that the range and strength of the induced fields were modified in a Bose condensate.  I presneted my therom. "The nuclear and gravitational constants of the motion tend toward those of the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter."  I built up my arguments from the principle of the conservation of momentum and the fact that disturbances in the fields propagate at light speed.  During the question an answer period it was said, "Your arguments are all wrong, we have just heard proof that gravity propagates at infinite velocity."  Several others agreeded.  I thought, "It's no wonder that this show was kicked out of the state department."

Frank Znidarsic --part1_199.139a2a0e.2b4ee2f7_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 06:54:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02607; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:51:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:51:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 06:50:02 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002501c2b7ee$6476c540$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2B7AB.55EED000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <1bd.1a8bd472.2b4e41af aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Z5FkC.0.fe.SnO7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2B7AB.55EED000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This reference from Frank is very interesting in that Celani does equate = actual pressure with overpotential. I hope that Ed hasn't left yet, and = will comment on this: i.e. whether 1:1 gas loading is the indeed the = equivalent of 22,000 atm as Celani seems to state: "Large D/Pd ratios can be achieved by means of very high pressure gas = loadings. In fact D/Pd values around 1.0 have been reached at deuterium = (hydrogen) pressures of about 22000 atm (6). Such high pressure levels = require obviously very specialized technology." However, I don't see any reference to Cooper pairs or greately lowered = electrical resistance that would tend to show evidence of HTSC on this = reference, but I can only the the one page of Celani in English. Is = there more? Everything else goes to Italian. Regards, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2B7AB.55EED000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This reference from Frank is very interesting in that Celani does = equate=20 actual pressure with overpotential. I hope that Ed hasn't left yet, and = will=20 comment on this: i.e. whether 1:1 gas loading is the indeed the = equivalent of=20 22,000 atm as Celani seems to state:
 
"Large D/Pd ratios can be achieved by means of very high pressure = gas=20 loadings. In fact D/Pd values around 1.0 have been reached at deuterium=20 (hydrogen) pressures of about 22000 atm (6). Such high pressure levels = require=20 obviously very specialized technology."
 
However, I don't see any reference to Cooper pairs or greately = lowered=20 electrical resistance that would tend to show evidence of HTSC on this=20 reference, but I can only the the one page of Celani in English. Is = there more?=20 Everything else goes to Italian.
 
Regards,
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2B7AB.55EED000-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 07:06:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07537; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 07:04:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 07:04:31 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <7b.6c76181.2b4ee957 aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:03:51 EST Subject: Re: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7b.6c76181.2b4ee957_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"tdtwq1.0.hr1._zO7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_7b.6c76181.2b4ee957_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 9:54:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes: > Celani . F. Celani, A. Spallone, P. Tripodi, D. Di Gioacchino, S. Pace, INFN Laboratori Nazionali di Frascati, via E.Fermi 40, 00044 Frascati (Italy) discovered superconductivity in palladium deuterium systems. > " OBSERVATIONS OF STRONG RESISTIVITY REDUCTION IN A PALLADIUM THIN LONG WIRE > USING ULTRA-HIGH FREQUENCY PULSED ELECTROLYSIS > > "............Awire segment (1/4 of total, the most cathodic) showed a very > low resistance behavior in some tests (corresponding to R/Ro values much > less than 0.05 and in a case less than 0.01).................." I hope this helps. Miley found the same and sent me his paper on it. Frank Znidarsic --part1_7b.6c76181.2b4ee957_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 9:54:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


Celani


. F. Celani, A. Spallone, P. Tripodi, D. Di Gioacchino, S. Pace, INFN Laboratori Nazionali di Frascati, via E.Fermi 40, 00044 Frascati (Italy) discovered superconductivity in palladium deuterium systems.


" OBSERVATIONS OF STRONG RESISTIVITY REDUCTION IN A PALLADIUM THIN LONG WIRE USING ULTRA-HIGH FREQUENCY PULSED ELECTROLYSIS

"............Awire segment (1/4 of total, the most cathodic) showed a very low resistance behavior in some tests (corresponding to R/Ro values much less than 0.05 and in a case less than 0.01).................."


I hope this helps.  Miley found the same and sent me his paper on it.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_7b.6c76181.2b4ee957_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 08:48:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20019; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:44:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:44:44 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:45:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Speed of gravity "measured" From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3124957514_305860" Resent-Message-ID: <"EJQZ91.0.gu4.xRQ7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3124957514_305860 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 1/9/03 6:29 AM, "FZNIDARSIC aol.com" wrote: >> Dr. Tom Van Flandern's press release attacking the ludicrous "speed of >> gravity" results reported and cheered over by the buffoons in the news >> media. Yet another example of how the Einstein-fawning media are quick = to >> elevate garbage supposedly "ratifying" Einstein to high status (much as = they >> elevated MIT/Caltech etc results against cold fusion back in 1989). >>=20 >=20 > Gene, this is not ludicrous. You sounds ludicrous when you fight this. >=20 > Fight this??? Van Flandern=B9s astronomical discussions are extremely > compelling and careful. We have reprinted them, in IE, as you know. I do= not > believe that the speed of gravity =8B whatever gravity is (certainly NOT > Einsteinian GR!) -- is infinite, nor does van Flandern. But the case for = its > action =AD far beyond the speed of light, is compelling. Elementary celesti= al > mechanics does not work otherwise. Certainly the scientific establishmen= t > with its laser gravity interferometers expects to see =B3gravity waves=B2 in > space-time coming here from afar =8B and moving at c. However, they will b= e > waiting a long time =AD at our expense, since there is almost certainly no = such > thing as =B3space-time=B2 or ripples in it. >=20 > * Many phenomena point to the fact that the speed of gravity is not infin= ite. >=20 It is not infinite, is it just SUPER-HIGH =8B billions of times greater than c. - Gene --B_3124957514_305860 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Speed of gravity "measured" On 1/9/03 6:29 AM, "FZNIDARSIC aol.com" <= FZNIDARSIC aol.com> wrote:


Dr. Tom Van F= landern's press release attacking the ludicrous "speed of
gravity" results reported and cheered over by the  buffoons in th= e news
media.  Yet another example of how the Einstein-fawning media are quic= k to
elevate garbage supposedly "ratifying" Einstein to high status (m= uch as they
elevated MIT/Caltech etc results against cold fusion back in 1989).


Gene, this is not ludicrous. You sounds ludicrous when you fight this.

Fight this???  Van Flandern’s astronomical discussions ar= e extremely compelling and careful. We have reprinted them, in IE, as you kn= ow.  I do not believe that the speed of gravity — whatever gravit= y is (certainly NOT Einsteinian GR!) -- is infinite, nor does van Flandern. = But the case for its action – far beyond the speed of light, is compel= ling. Elementary celestial mechanics does not work otherwise.  Certainl= y the scientific establishment with its laser gravity interferometers expect= s to see “gravity waves” in space-time coming here from afar = 212; and moving at c.  However, they will be waiting a long time –= ; at our expense, since there is almost certainly no such thing as “sp= ace-time” or ripples in it.

  • Many phenomena po= int to the fact that the speed of gravity is not infinite.

It is not infinite, is it just SUPER-HIGH — billions of times = greater than c.

- Gene

 --B_3124957514_305860-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 08:58:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26299; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:54:50 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Speed of gravity "measured" Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:11:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000701c2b7c6$a878eca0$198e209a ggrf30j> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"D1_Cb1.0.mQ6.PbQ7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. I have tried in the past to reconcile this notion (gravity travelling at C ) with the newtonian law of gravitation ( which assumes infinite velocity ). The result was a computer simulation which had the peculiar and rather annoying property of non-conservation of energy. I suspect I was doing something wrong, although it seemed pretty straightforward to me at the time. Obviously, planets don't go flying out of their orbits, so if gravity does indeed travel at C how is it that we don't see large effects due to retardation in planetary systems? K. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nick7 itl.net] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 5:06 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Speed of gravity "measured" Taken from Spacedaily Nick Palmer ================================================= http://www.spacedaily.com/news/gravity-03a.html Speed Of Gravity Measured Charlottesville - Jan 09, 2003 Taking advantage of a rare cosmic alignment, scientists have made the first measurement of the speed at which the force of gravity propagates, giving a numerical value to one of the last unmeasured fundamental constants of physics. "Newton thought that gravity's force was instantaneous. Einstein assumed that it moved at the speed of light, but until now, no one had measured it," said Sergei Kopeikin, a physicist at the University of Missouri-Columbia. "We have determined that gravity's propagation speed is equal to the speed of light within an accuracy of 20 percent," said Ed Fomalont, an astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO) in Charlottesville, VA. The scientists presented their findings to the American Astronomical Society's meeting in Seattle, WA. The landmark measurement is important to physicists working on unified field theories that attempt to combine particle physics with Einstein's general theory of relativity and electromagnetic theory. "Our measurement puts some strong limits on the theories that propose extra dimensions, such as superstring theory and brane theories," Kopeikin said. "Knowing the speed of gravity can provide an important test of the existence and compactness of these extra dimensions," he added. Superstring theory proposes that the fundamental particles of nature are not pointlike, but rather incredibly small loops or strings, whose properties are determined by different modes of vibration. Branes (a word derived from membranes) are multidimensional surfaces, and some current physical theories propose space-time branes embedded to five dimensions. The scientists used the National Science Foundation's Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA), a continent-wide radio-telescope system, along with the 100-meter radio telescope in Effelsberg, Germany, to make an extremely precise observation when the planet Jupiter passed nearly in front of a bright quasar on September 8, 2002. The observation recorded a very slight "bending" of the radio waves coming from the background quasar by the gravitational effect of Jupiter. The bending resulted in a small change in the quasar's apparent position in the sky. "Because Jupiter is moving around the Sun, the precise amount of the bending depends slightly on the speed at which gravity propagates from Jupiter," Kopeikin said. Jupiter, the largest planet in the Solar System, only passes closely enough to the path of radio waves from a suitably bright quasar about once a decade for such a measurement to be made, the scientists said. The once-in-a-decade celestial alignment was the last in a chain of events that made measuring the speed of gravity possible. The others included a chance meeting of the two scientists in 1996, a breakthrough in theoretical physics and the development of specialized techniques that enabled the extremely precise measurement to be made. "No one had tried to measure the speed of gravity before because most physicists had assumed that the only way to do so was to detect gravitational waves," Kopeikin recalled. However, in 1999, Kopeikin extended Einstein's theory to include the gravitational effects of a moving body on light and radio waves. The effects depended on the speed of gravity. He realized that if Jupiter moved nearly in front of a star or radio source, he could test his theory. Kopeikin studied the predicted orbit of Jupiter for the next 30 years and discovered that the giant planet would pass closely enough in front of the quasar J0842+1835 in 2002. However, he quickly realized that the effect on the quasar's apparent position in the sky attributable to the speed of gravity would be so small that the only observational technique capable of measuring it was Very Long Baseline Interferometry (VLBI), the technique embodied in the VLBA. Kopeikin then contacted Fomalont, a leading expert in VLBI and an experienced VLBA observer. "I immediately realized the importance of an experiment that could make the first measurement of a fundamental constant of nature," Fomalont said. "I decided that we had to give this our best shot," he added. To get the required level of precision, the two scientists added the Effelsberg telescope to their observation. The wider the separation between two radio-telescope antennas, the greater is the resolving power, or ability to see fine detail, achievable. The VLBA includes antennas on Hawaii, the continental United States, and St. Croix in the Caribbean. An antenna on the other side of the Atlantic added even more resolving power. "We had to make a measurement with about three times more accuracy than anyone had ever done, but we knew, in principle, that it could be done," Fomalont said. The scientists tested and refined their techniques in "dry runs," then waited for Jupiter to make its pass in front of the quasar. The wait included considerable nail-biting. Equipment failure, bad weather, or an electromagnetic storm on Jupiter itself could have sabotaged the observation. However, luck held out and the scientists' observations at a radio frequency of 8 GigaHertz produced enough good data to make their measurement. They achieved a precision equal to the width of a human hair seen from 250 miles away. "Our main goal was to rule out an infinite speed for gravity, and we did even better. We now know that the speed of gravity is probably equal to the speed of light, and we can confidently exclude any speed for gravity that is over twice that of light," Fomalont said. Most scientists, Kopeikin said, will be relieved that the speed of gravity is consistent with the speed of light. "I believe this experiment sheds new light on fundamentals of general relativity and represents the first of many more studies and observations of gravitation which are currently possible because of the enormously high precision of VLBI. We have a lot more to learn about this intriguing cosmic force and its relationship to the other forces in nature," Kopeikin said. This is not the first time that Jupiter has played a part in producing a measurement of a fundamental physical constant. In 1675, Olaf Roemer, a Danish astronomer working at the Paris Observatory, made the first reasonably accurate determination of the speed of light by observing eclipses of one of Jupiter's moons. Related Links National Radio Astronomy Observatory SpaceDaily Search SpaceDaily Subscribe To SpaceDaily Express From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 09:25:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06964; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:22:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:22:11 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <67.6c76ee8.2b4f0993 aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:21:23 EST Subject: Re: Speed of gravity "measured" To: knagel gis.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_67.6c76ee8.2b4f0993_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"8n7em3.0.ki1.3_Q7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_67.6c76ee8.2b4f0993_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 11:58:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes: > The result was a computer simulation which had > the peculiar and rather annoying property of non-conservation > of energy. I suspect I was doing something wrong, > True. If the forces were instantaneous the forces would always be equal and opposite. No additional forces would be required to conserve momenum of energy. The electric force travels at velocity c in a vacuum. Consider this. There are two electrons at rest in each others field. The forces are equal and opposite. The second electron is moved. The second electron immediately experiences the established field of the first electron. The first electron does not experience the displacement of the second electron until the disturbance in the electric field propagates to it at velocity c. Momentum cannot be conserved by the original fields during this interval. Additional forces are required to conserve the momentum of the system. This force is the local magnetic interaction. This structure of the magnetic field can be derived from this sort of analysis. The same logic can be applied to the other forces. The earth is followed by a gravitomagnetic field. This was meausred by the "gravity probe B' . Einstein predicted this. Even number nucleons are stable to the interaction of the induced "magnetic" component of the strong nuclear force. The fact that the nuclear spin orbit force and the gravitomagnetic force exist confirms that the orginal field propagate at finite velocities. The speed of light has been measured at 30 miles an hour in a Bose co ndensate. This effects the motion constants associated with the induced fields. This is what I have been trying to get out. Frank Znidarsic --part1_67.6c76ee8.2b4f0993_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 11:58:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes:


The result was a computer simulation which had
the peculiar and rather annoying property of non-conservation
of energy. I suspect I was doing something wrong,


True.  If the forces were instantaneous the forces would always be equal and opposite.  No additional forces would be required to conserve momenum of energy.  The electric force travels at velocity c in a vacuum.  Consider this.  There are two electrons at rest in each others field.  The forces are equal and opposite.  The second electron is moved.  The second electron immediately experiences the established field of the first electron.  The first electron does not experience the displacement of the second electron until the disturbance in the electric field propagates to it at velocity c.  Momentum cannot be conserved by the original fields during this interval.  Additional forces are required to conserve the momentum of the system.  This force is the local magnetic interaction.  This structure of the magnetic field can be derived from this sort of analysis.

The same logic can be applied to the other forces.  The earth is followed by a gravitomagnetic field.  This was meausred by the "gravity probe B' .  Einstein predicted this.  Even number nucleons are stable to the interaction of the induced "magnetic" component of the strong nuclear force.

The fact that the nuclear spin orbit force and the gravitomagnetic force exist confirms that the orginal field propagate at finite velocities. 

The speed of light has been measured at 30 miles an hour in a Bose condensate.  This effects the motion constants associated with the induced fields.  This is what I have been trying to get out.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_67.6c76ee8.2b4f0993_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 13:47:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01996; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:42:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:42:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Speed of gravity "measured" Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:59:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <67.6c76ee8.2b4f0993 aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"mYGCG3.0.2V.6pU7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank etc. I agree. I was not taking into account that energy would be radiated by gravitomagnetic radiation ( by the way, what a poor choice of terms! Spinning an uncharged mass doesn't create a magnetic field. I always thought the term gravito-kinetic would be more descriptive ). It makes me want to dig out my old notes on the subject, and try to calculate the "extra" energy in the planetary system and see if it matches what we'd expect for the gravitomagnetic radiation. It can't be much, as the planets have been doing their thing for a long time without plunging into the sun. Or perhaps we'd run into the same paradox as we see on the quantum level, that we have a stable orbital system with no radiation???? K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:21 PM To: knagel gis.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Speed of gravity "measured" In a message dated 1/9/03 11:58:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes: The result was a computer simulation which had the peculiar and rather annoying property of non-conservation of energy. I suspect I was doing something wrong, True. If the forces were instantaneous the forces would always be equal and opposite. No additional forces would be required to conserve momenum of energy. The electric force travels at velocity c in a vacuum. Consider this. There are two electrons at rest in each others field. The forces are equal and opposite. The second electron is moved. The second electron immediately experiences the established field of the first electron. The first electron does not experience the displacement of the second electron until the disturbance in the electric field propagates to it at velocity c. Momentum cannot be conserved by the original fields during this interval. Additional forces are required to conserve the momentum of the system. This force is the local magnetic interaction. This structure of the magnetic field can be derived from this sort of analysis. The same logic can be applied to the other forces. The earth is followed by a gravitomagnetic field. This was meausred by the "gravity probe B' . Einstein predicted this. Even number nucleons are stable to the interaction of the induced "magnetic" component of the strong nuclear force. The fact that the nuclear spin orbit force and the gravitomagnetic force exist confirms that the orginal field propagate at finite velocities. The speed of light has been measured at 30 miles an hour in a Bose condensate. This effects the motion constants associated with the induced fields. This is what I have been trying to get out. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 14:26:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24382; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:13:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:13:34 -0800 (PST) From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:12:41 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B866.E6F0A220" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7b.6c76181.2b4ee957 aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"eYh9s.0.py5.3GV7-" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B866.E6F0A220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I have seen something like this sort of thing, but attributed it to thermal/galvanics. I am still trying to find a method to measure resistance and keeping everything uniform in terms of temperature and electric potential seems nearly impossible. How does he measure the resistance while the wire is loaded ? -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, 2003 January 09 22:04 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Confinement pressure, superconductivity and CF In a message dated 1/9/03 9:54:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes: Celani . F. Celani, A. Spallone, P. Tripodi, D. Di Gioacchino, S. Pace, INFN Laboratori Nazionali di Frascati, via E.Fermi 40, 00044 Frascati (Italy) discovered superconductivity in palladium deuterium systems. " OBSERVATIONS OF STRONG RESISTIVITY REDUCTION IN A PALLADIUM THIN LONG WIRE USING ULTRA-HIGH FREQUENCY PULSED ELECTROLYSIS "............Awire segment (1/4 of total, the most cathodic) showed a very low resistance behavior in some tests (corresponding to R/Ro values much less than 0.05 and in a case less than 0.01).................." I hope this helps. Miley found the same and sent me his paper on it. Frank Znidarsic ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B866.E6F0A220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Actually, I have seen something like this sort of=20 thing,
 but attributed it to = thermal/galvanics.
I am still trying to find a method to measure=20 resistance
 and keeping everything uniform in terms of=20 temperature
 and electric potential seems nearly = impossible.
 
How=20 does he measure the resistance while the wire is loaded = ?
-----Original Message-----
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com = [mailto:FZNIDARSIC aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, 2003 January 09=20 22:04
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: = Confinement=20 pressure, superconductivity and CF

In a message dated 1/9/03 = 9:54:52 AM Eastern=20 Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


Celani

. F. Celani, A. = Spallone, P.=20 Tripodi, D. Di Gioacchino, S. Pace, INFN Laboratori Nazionali di = Frascati, via=20 E.Fermi 40, 00044 Frascati (Italy) discovered superconductivity in = palladium=20 deuterium systems.


" OBSERVATIONS OF STRONG RESISTIVITY REDUCTION IN A = PALLADIUM=20 THIN LONG WIRE USING ULTRA-HIGH FREQUENCY PULSED ELECTROLYSIS=20

"............Awire segment (1/4 of total, the most cathodic) = showed=20 a very low resistance behavior in some tests (corresponding to R/Ro = values=20 much less than 0.05 and in a case less than=20 0.01).................."

I hope this helps.  = Miley=20 found the same and sent me his paper on it.

Frank = Znidarsic=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B866.E6F0A220-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 15:04:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05591; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:57:02 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <12a.1fa23b48.2b4f580c aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:56:12 EST Subject: Re: Speed of gravity "measured" To: knagel gis.net CC: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12a.1fa23b48.2b4f580c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"RNew83.0.GN1.-uV7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_12a.1fa23b48.2b4f580c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 4:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes: > I always thought the term gravito-kinetic > would be more descriptive ). > Very good thought. A gyroscope experiment in Japan a few years ago seemed to produce some weight loss. This was thought to be due to the gravitomagnetic field induced by the kinetic energy of rotation. Kinetic energy is very small compared to rest enegy. I believe that the larger gravitomagnetic field produced by Potkeltnov was produced by the rotation of matters rest enegy. I did the following calcs in the appendix of this chapter. Chapter 3 Keep going you are on the correct path. Frank z --part1_12a.1fa23b48.2b4f580c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/03 4:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes:


I always thought the term gravito-kinetic
would be more descriptive ).


Very good thought.  A gyroscope experiment in Japan a few years ago seemed to produce some weight loss.  This was thought to be due to the gravitomagnetic field induced by the kinetic energy of rotation.  Kinetic energy is very small compared to rest enegy.

I believe that the larger gravitomagnetic field produced by Potkeltnov was produced by the rotation of matters rest enegy.

I did the following calcs in the appendix of this chapter.

Chapter 3

Keep going you are on the correct path.

Frank z --part1_12a.1fa23b48.2b4f580c_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 9 16:08:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02946; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:05:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:05:09 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: A funding mechanism for Horaces Renewable Energy Plan. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:22:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"Nay323.0.tj.quW7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace. A few days back I suggested to Horace that he should hope John McCain gains some power in the senate. It now seems Senator McCain is pushing for a bill to implement a "cap and trade" system for trading greenhouse gas credits. The bill has wide bipartisan support, and is predictable opposed by the administration. But Bush will look awfully bad trying to stomp it, with a war looming, now is the perfect time to push for Horaces plan. And the greenhouse gas credit trading system would be a good political solution to providing funding for that plan. How about it, Horace? Can you massage your plan to fit into such a scheme? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 04:58:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA23017; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 04:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 04:56:57 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:12:28 -0800 To: "Vortex" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A funding mechanism for Horaces Renewable Energy Plan. Resent-Message-ID: <"zCteb.0.Ud5.OCi7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:22 PM 1/9/3, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Horace. > >A few days back I suggested to Horace that he should >hope John McCain gains some power in the senate. >It now seems Senator McCain is pushing for a bill >to implement a "cap and trade" system for trading greenhouse >gas credits. The bill has wide bipartisan support, and >is predictable opposed by the administration. But Bush >will look awfully bad trying to stomp it, with >a war looming, now is the perfect time to push for >Horaces plan. And the greenhouse gas credit trading >system would be a good political solution to providing >funding for that plan. How about it, Horace? Can >you massage your plan to fit into such a scheme? > >K. > > Thank you Keith for this comment! This is an interesing aspect of the both the technical and political sides of the energy situation. It does not appear to me at this time that a Cap and Trade System could ever fully fund the plan. Both the quantified and unquantified benefits of the plan should far exceed the financial value of the corresponding greenhouse gas credits. (You never know, though, the gas credit bidding could get crazy some day!) In writing the plan I pretty much sidestepped the eco-values as unqauntified values. This is because there is so much controversy in this area. At his point the plan appears to be workable in a very practical sense, though I don't think anyone (else) has actually gone over the numbers for good reality check. I do not think the plan requires quantification of greenhouse gas credits to be workable, but the revenue certainly can not hurt the permanent fund! I think a politician would be on far firmer ground to back a common sense plan like this than anything which deals only with greenhouse gasses. The plan offers huge and quantifiable potential benefits, benefits that will materialize in this and the next generations' lifetime. Politicians like legacies, and this plan has legacy written all over it. It could even be the basis of a political career for a politicians' progeny. Further, it is really not left or right side oriented, but, given that government has to be involved in it, it is rather more middle of the road common sense oriented, and that isn't all bad these days politcally. A futher aspect of this is that the approach breaks new ground altogether in politics. It attacks the annual budgeting and planning cycle that is so devastating to the achieving of long term goals. It does this with the vehicle of an untouchable permanent fund. This aspect alone could be a terrific political legacy. If I were a politician I would jump on this. The plan already automatically dovetails with or has the potential to dovetail nicely with various energy policies. However, based on your comments I added the following explicit statement to the description of the permanent fund: "If a Cap and Trade System for greenhouse gas credit trading is implemented in the US, then income from greenhouse gas credits earned from plan projects should be treated as fund income." I also modified the following paragraph, which may have been added after the plan was last posted on vortex. It is still an evolving document. "This plan is not intended to interfere with other energy related policies and legislation, like the Renewable Portfolio Standards (RPS), state renewable energy funds, buy down programs, tax incentives, a Cap and Trade System for greenhouse gas credit trading, etc., but rather it is intended that all these things mutually dovetail and benefit each other. However, technological developments from programs like the Big Three U.S. automakers' FreedomCAR Program to develop hydrogen-based cars, or major fuel cell programs, could have a dramatic and positive effect on the success of any renewable energy program, though possibly not sooner than 10 years. The principle missing technology is hydrogen storage, which now has a potential to be provided using carbon nano-tube storage media. Though the planning horizon for hydrogen is long, it still may be useful to give special weight to projects which produce hydrogen, and to support hydrogen storage, generation, transportation, and fuel cell research. Similar consideration may be warranted for methods of methane production from atmospheric carbon using renewable sources. If wind energy costs continue to decline as in the past 20 years, hydrogen or methane producing wind farms should be cost beneficial within 10 years. This makes feasible many additional locations for major wind energy generation, like Alaska. With sufficient research and appropriate legislation, Alaska alone has the potential to provide the US energy growth needs for generations, though it may take a commitment similar to that of going to the moon to realize it." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 05:03:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27137; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:02:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:02:55 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:18:29 -0800 To: "Vortex" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A funding mechanism for Horaces Renewable Energy Plan. Resent-Message-ID: <"5U7Ph2.0.xd6._Hi7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh, I should have mentioned that I have posted newer versions of the plan in the last week in some newsgroups under the name "A Renewable Energy Legacy Plan". The numbers are still the same. It is mostly the justification that is changing. You can now see why I said it has "legacy written all over it." 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 16:48:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04999; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:45:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:45:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1F6A4C.BF5CC1BD ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:50:20 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 10 Jan 03 Washington, DC] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fD1lg2.0.0E1._as7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 10 Jan 03 Washington, DC Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:22:43 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 10 Jan 03 Washington, DC 1. CLOSER TO MIDNIGHT: THE MOUSE IS ROARING. North Korea today announced its withdrawal from the 1970 Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The treaty dictates a 90-day cooling-off period before the withdrawal becomes effective, but North Korea growled that it wasn't waiting. Six months ago the U.S. withdrawal from the ABM Treaty became official, following a similar ninety-day cooling- off period(WN 14 Jun 02). They weren't entirely effective, but these two treaties were all that stood in the way of a world-wide nuclear arms race. As if to emphasize this point, Brazil's new Minister of Science declared they too need the bomb. 2. MISSILE DEFENSE: NO INTERCEPT TESTING UNTIL AUTUMN. "What's going on?," I asked Puff Panegyric at the Missile Defense Agency. "I hear the next two scheduled tests of the ground-based mid- course interceptor have been scrubbed, and no interceptor tests will be attempted before fall. Deployment, however, is still set for the end of 2004." Puff shrugged,"you have to set priorities in this game, the goal is to deploy. Management feels testing threatens to divert us from that goal. As you know, we had a booster-separation problem in the last test. That led to our new policy, 'deploy now, test later.' We find it keeps us right on schedule. We'll have those missiles in silos by late summer of '04 whether they work or not." "Thanks Puff, I'll sleep better." 3. MISCONDUCT: "THE SKEPTICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST" IS DENOUNCED. Bjorn Lomborg, author of the 1999 best-seller, was found to be scientifically dishonest by the Danish Research Agency, Denmark's equivalent of the National Academy of Sciences. An associate professor at the University of Aarhus, Lomborg concluded that the "air and water around us is becoming less and less polluted." Industry-backed think tanks loved it, but a panel of scientists responsible for investigating charges of scientific dishonesty found Lomborg had been highly selective in his choice of data. 4. SCIENTIFIC HOAX? NO, NO, NOT THE CLONING, MICHAEL GUILLEN. We now learn that the scientist/journalist, who grandly announced that he was accepting the responsibility of testing the Clonaid claim "on behalf of the scientific community," tried to market an exclusive to the media before Eve was born, which raises serious questions about his independence. Even Fox Entertainment, which gave us such classics as Alien Autopsy, declined on ethical grounds. Wednesday, Guillen was interviewed by Charles Gibson on ABC Good Morning America. "You are a Professor of Physics at Harvard?" Gibson began, by way of establishing Guillen's credentials. "Yes," Guillen mouthed. Whoa! Guillen is not a Professor of Physics at Harvard. I went to American Men and Women of Science; the edition I had was 1995-96. His autobiographical sketch says he's a member of the National Academy of Sciences. He's not. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN. You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 17:06:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11410; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:01:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:01:49 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <102.237404d8.2b50c6d2 aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:01:06 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F6?= To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA11356 Resent-Message-ID: <"SCVHT1.0.Co2.zps7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have finally figured out how to put the umlaut in Schrdinger Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 17:11:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13896; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:10:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:10:20 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: A funding mechanism for Horaces Renewable Energy Plan. Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:27:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"TwxRs3.0.yO3.xxs7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace: >It does not appear to me at this time that a Cap and Trade System could >ever fully fund the plan. I am surprised. Based on past history, these auctions of public property generally bring in a good amount of income. My guess is a great deal of money will be made trading these instruments. That some of this revenue stream should be directed towards renewable energy seems like a salable idea, perhaps a fee should be levied on speculative investors who trade the credits??? >I think a politician would be on far firmer ground to back a common sense >plan like this than anything which deals only with greenhouse gasses. I think that political history shows otherwise. The advantage of this "cap and trade" plan is that it creates a market that people can game and profit from, which is sufficient incentive to cause the bill to be passed. Suggesting a tax to the American public is political suicide, as has been amply demonstrated in the past. Yes, I know we're talking about something like 10 dollars per person per year, it just doesn't matter. Politics is about perception, not reality. Cap and Trade is nice because it provides incentive to any single polluter by saying, in effect, "If you over pollute, you must buy the right from your neighbors. If you stop polluting, you automatically get a valuable property ( the allotment credits ) which you can sell for a profit determined by the market". >A futher aspect of this is that the approach breaks new ground altogether >in politics. It attacks the annual budgeting and planning cycle that is so >devastating to the achieving of long term goals. It does this with the >vehicle of an untouchable permanent fund. This isn't really a new idea. What you're describing is somewhat like the social security system, the thing which everyone in Washington is so hell bent on reforming. I don't think a plan with such a component would go down to smoothly these days, but what I'm suggesting would produce enough money to fund something. I guess I should sniff around for the Kyoto treaty agreements and see how they imagine the CO2 marketplace to be set up. Here's S139 from McCain's website. http://mccain.senate.gov/acrobat/s139.pdf How about it? Mr. Heffner goes to Washington. Can you do a good Jimmy Stewart imitation? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 19:33:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30910; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:31:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:31:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:47:00 -0800 To: , From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: A funding mechanism for Horaces Renewable Energy Plan. Resent-Message-ID: <"7jg-22.0.uY7.J0v7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:27 PM 1/10/3, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Horace: > >>It does not appear to me at this time that a Cap and Trade System could >>ever fully fund the plan. > >I am surprised. I am surprised I can't communicate why this is so. Perhaps an analogy will work. Suppose we got credits for reducing pollution on a car. Though the pollution reducing goal is admirable, the benefit is much less than that which is derived from building an entire car which runs without polluting and without using any fuel at all. When you build a car that uses no fuel, you eliminate the fuel cost altogether, you have the income from the sale of the car and the job creation and economic stimulus of the auto building, you reduce the balance of trade, and you provide travel benefits, all in addition to the polution reduction that occurs as a side benefit. This is what the plan achieves. It builds the no-energy car. The pollution reduction is merely a single benefit from amoung many. That side benefit can not be reasonably expected to pay for the entire car. It can be expected to help pay for the car, however. In this analogy, the car is analagous to an energy source. Hopefully this analogy will not be confused by the fact that when a renewable energy source is sufficiently cheap to produce economic hydrogen or methane or a hydrocarbon from atmospheric gasses, then the cars that run on such fuels could produce little in the way of greenhouse gasses. >Based on past history, these auctions of public property >generally bring in a good amount of income. My guess is a great deal >of money will be made trading these instruments. That some of this >revenue stream should be directed towards renewable energy seems like a >salable idea, perhaps a fee should be levied on speculative >investors who trade the credits??? Speculation simply helps make a market for the commodity. THis aspect I think is neutral to the renewable energy issue. > >>I think a politician would be on far firmer ground to back a common sense >>plan like this than anything which deals only with greenhouse gasses. > >I think that political history shows otherwise. The advantage of this >"cap and trade" plan is that it creates a market that people can >game and profit from, which is sufficient incentive to cause the bill >to be passed. Suggesting a tax to the American public is political >suicide, as has been amply demonstrated in the past. Yes, I know >we're talking about something like 10 dollars per person per year, >it just doesn't matter. Politics is about perception, not reality. Perhaps I am missing something here? It is my assumption that to obtain the income from the credits you must reduce greenhouse gasses, or at least reduce them as compared to comparable hydrocarbon sources. This income (to the plan) would thus happen automatically over time as a matter of course. It would not be right to simlpy divert credit income to the fund a priori. The plan I propose has the potential for a very large scale-up, much more than $10 per person per year. If anyone eventually wants to get serious long term about renewable energy, here is a means. It is so much more than simply a pollution reduction scheme. Though any plan involves risk, this plan is far more sensible and business-like than any speculation scheme. Such a speculation based scheme may be very short lived, with more losers than winners, and it would be unfortunate to have the Legacy Plan's survival tied to it. I believe the legacy plan makes everyone a winner. [snip] >>A futher aspect of this is that the approach breaks new ground altogether >>in politics. It attacks the annual budgeting and planning cycle that is so >>devastating to the achieving of long term goals. It does this with the >>vehicle of an untouchable permanent fund. > >This isn't really a new idea. What you're describing is somewhat like the >social security system, the thing which everyone in Washington >is so hell bent on reforming. [snip] The Legacy Plan is not anything like what the social security system is, or was intended to be! The social security system produces no product. Its only income base is taxes, one way or another, and that's forever. If you look at the legacy plan, you will notice that at year 20 the tax income stops. There is no more tax income ... ever. Further, the products and wages produced create tax revenues! Even in its present timid proposed form, the potential trillion dollars economic benefit from the Legacy Plan may be enough difference in the economy to be able to bail out the social security system some day. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 10 20:16:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10549; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:14:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:14:54 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:13:04 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA10523 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xlk7t.0.ka2.-ev7-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:01 PM 1/10/3, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >I have finally figured out how to put the umlaut in Schrdinger > >Frank Z On a Mac you simply type option-u before the vowel you wish to umlaut, e.g. , , , , . Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 11 12:28:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30607; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:25:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:25:46 -0800 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:20:24 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Further effort to verbalize the "orbitshere" To: vortex Message-id: <004801c2b9ae$df9aafe0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01C2B96B.D1238380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"2RbEd3.0.9U7.At78-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C2B96B.D1238380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, Some time ago Horace Heffner expressed that one of his main objections = to the Mills' hydrino (below ground state hydrogen) was the requirement = that a photon of relatively long wave length could be effectively = captured by a hydrogen atom whose electron "circumscribed" a far shorter = standing wave diameter around the atom, i.e. the electron's de Broglie = wavelength was far shorter than the wavelength of the photon in = question. This is a key point to Mills orbitsphere theory. I don't believe that an entirely satisfactory answer has been verbalized = yet, by Mills or anyone else, and it is a complicated issue that = involves a number of alternative visualizations and mathematics. Mills = has provided the math but not very good verbalization, IMHO. It would = probably not be worth the effort to try to begin to resolve or improve = (express Mills' math in more accessible layman's terms than Mills has = been able to do) at this point, had not BLP already actually collected a = fair amount of actual hydrinos.=20 In the coming months, if/when independent laboratories confirm that what = Mills has collected are indeed hydrogen atoms far below ground state = (Mills says some labs have already confirmed), then many of us who have = followed this work and believe that it is also at the very core of cold = fusion phenomena (and deuterium stripping and all kinds of related LENR) = would like to have an accessible verbalization of how indeed photons of = multiples of 13.6 eV are captured and exchanged by hydrogen atoms and = how shrinkage affects nuclear reactions.=20 To that end I would like to propose another piece to a complex jigsaw = puzzle that fits in next to Robin von Spaandonk's "lissajous" idea for a = compound methodology that can be termed "enfoldment."=20 Before a longer wavelength of EM energy can be contained, it first must = be captured and at the same time enfolded from two dimensions into three = dimensions, just as if it were funneled down a vortex, almost like a = bath-tub drain - going from a large flat area down into a small = spherical area. As it turns out, this vortex process has lots of = relevance to *radio antenna* theory and design.=20 Bill Beaty has written an excellent piece on 'Energy-sucking' Radio = Antennas, http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html I am quoting a lot of his wording below, intact from the web site with = some relevant parts paraphrased or added to apply to the present = situation. BTW all figures given are just rough estimates - as this is = just now being put down for the first time, and there will be large gaps = so please correct even the smallest detail if you so desire. First. let's back-track one step with the following explanation of the = extent of Mills' extremely far-reaching "revisionism": In 1924, Louis de = Broglie revisited Compton's momentum phenomena from the opposite = direction; that is, he hypothesized that matter, in particular, = electrons, could exhibit wave-like properties. These waves are now = called matter waves and they have always been assumed but not proven to = be effectively two dimensional. p =3D h / lambda lambda de Broglie =3D h / mv De Broglie's matter waves were experimentally substantiated by others = -which formed the basis for Bohr's assumptions that there exist certain = stable electron orbitals and that an electron's angular momentum is = quantatized. In 1929 de Broglie was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics = for his discovery of the wave nature of electrons. The ground state electron, n =3D 1, has a circumference of one standing = wave in two dimensions, according to these theories. The radius of the = first excited state, n =3D 2, has a circumference of two standing waves. = Thus, before Mills came on the scene, hydrogen electrons cannot be said = to decay below n=3D1, unless chemically constrained by other atoms in = molecules, because they must fit within their standing 2D waveforms - = and only those whose circumferences equal a multiple of the electron's = de Broglie wavelength are permitted. For a picture of this (which will = save more than 1000 words) go to the bottom of this page: http://online.cctt.org/physicslab/content/PhyAPB/lessonnotes/dualnature/d= eBroglie.asp Standard QM sought to change the 2D nature of the de Broglie/ Bohr = electron by introducing "probability" into the mix, but that didn't = succeed very well and now Mills' CQM seeks to change the standard = doctrine by eliminating the idea of a 2D standing wave altogether in = favor of a superimposed 3D geometry, the orbitsphere, where the n=3D1 = ground state is not really a two dimensional orbit but, in effect, there = exist a much higher number of "virtual standing waves" in 3D so that = n=3D1 may be highly preferred over fractional states, but others are = possible, so long as they are multiples of 13.6 eV below N=3D1. IOW the = electron makes multiple offset orbits in 3D, circumscribing a sphere = before once again being in phase. The lissajous concept is the best way = to visualize this offsetting principle and Wolfram has a pretty good = explanation of a circle doing lissajous transformation becoming = spherical at: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Circle.html There is an animated version somewhere on the web but I have lost the = URL. At any rate, going from 2D to 3D sounds simple, but it is a radical = departure from standard physics and could win Mills a big Nordic prize = someday. Ok getting back to earth, here is what Bill B has to say about = antennae, slightly paraphrased to apply to UV rather than RF or visible = light photons:=20 "Here's something that has always bugged me: light waves are about 5000 = Angstroms in wavelength, while atoms are more like 1 Angstrom across. = [for 13.6 eV EUV photons the ratio is closer to 500-1]. How can such = tiny "antennas" absorb such long waves? Usually it takes a half-wave = antenna to do this. I never encountered a good explanation for this = during my physics education. It turns out that the explanation is both = little- known and fascinating. Classical EM theory implies that atoms cannot emit or absorb much light. = They are thousands of times smaller than light waves, yet atoms = obviously interact very strongly with light. How can they do this? = Perhaps they employ Quantum Mechanics in order to get around this = problem? There must be some explanation. After all, when a metal dipole = antenna is only one foot across, it certainly cannot absorb much = 5000ft-wave radiation. Do atoms employ "photon-impact" rather than the = EM wave mechanics of dipole antennas?=20 The answer turns out to be NO. The truth is quite strange and concerns = the ability of an LC resonator to "funnel" incoming electromagnetic = waves for capture by virtual antennas. These antennas behave as if they = were much larger than their physical diameter, as if there was an = "invisible lens" focusing more of the incoming EM energy upon the = antenna. In conventional terms, it's about enhancing the EA (effective = aperture) of small antennas. HOW DO ATOMS DO IT? I stumbled across the answer to my questions in a paper about VLF/ELF = loop antennas. Apparently Quantum Mechanics does not supply the answer. = Instead the question of small antenna behavior is resolved by a = little-known section of classical electromagnetism. It involves = resonance, but more importantly, it involves the magnetic and electric = fields which surround any antenna. An "electrically small" antenna is one where the physical antenna size = is far smaller than the EM wavelength being received. At first glance, = electrically small antennas aren't all that strange. If we use them for = radio transmissions, they can work just fine. To force a tiny antenna to = emit significant energy, we can simply give it a huge driving signal = (high voltage on a tiny dipole, or high current on a tiny loop.) If the = EM fields 1-wavelength away from the small antenna are significant, then = the EM radiation will be significant. It's almost as if the EM FIELDS = are acting as the antenna. Weak fields act "small," while intense fields = behave as a "large" antenna. This explains how a tiny antenna can = transmit lots of EM. But what about reception? It turns out that we can do something similar for reception; for "input" = as opposed to "output." By manipulating the EM fields, we can force an = electrically-small receiving antenna to behave as if it was very, VERY = large. The secret is to intentionally impress an artificial AC field = upon the receiving antenna. We'll transmit in order to receive, as it = were. Normal half-wave antennas already do exactly this. For example, = the wire of a half-wave antenna is far too thin to block incoming radio = waves and absorb them. However, the current in such an antenna, as well = as the voltage between the two wires, these create space-filling EM = fields which have a constant phase relative to the incoming waves. = Because of the constant phase, these fields interact with those incoming = waves. They create the lobes of an interference pattern. TRANSMIT IN ORDER TO RECEIVE?!!! Rather than relying upon the antenna itself to generate fields via the = current or voltage of the antenna wires, we could use a power supply [or = the electron's own virtual power supply]. If an antenna is 1/500 = wavelength across, it will behave as if it's 1/3 wavelength across if = its own resonance is closely matched or has a deficit "energy hole" = which can be filled by the incoming wave. To make it appear as the same = frequency as the incoming waves, the phase must be adjusted to a special = value. Take a loop antenna as an example. If you want your little = loop-antenna to receive far more radio energy, then put a big AC current = through the antenna so that the phase of this current is locked in synch = with the waves you wish to receive, and is lagging by 90 degrees. The = voltage across the antenna terminals stays about the same as when an = undriven antenna receives those waves. However, since the current is = much higher in the driven antenna, the energy received per second is = much higher as well. This seems like engineering blasphemy! How can = adding a larger current increase the RECEIVED power? Yet this actually = does work. Power equals volts times amps. To increase the RF power = coming in from distant sources, increase the amps intentionally.=20 This sounds really silly. How can we improve the reception of an = electrically small antenna by using it to *transmit*? The secret = involves the cancellation of magnetic or electric fields in the = near-field region of the antenna. The physics of the nearfield region of = antennas has a kind of nonlinearity because conductors are present. In = the electromagnetic nearfield region, it's possible to change the "E" of = a wave without changing the "M" (change the antenna's voltage without = changing the current), and vice versa. Superposition of EM traveling = waves does not quite apply here because the ruling equations for energy = propagation near conductors depends upon V^2 or I^2 separately. In = addition, V is almost independent of I in the near-field region. If a = very small loop antenna (a coil) should happen to receive a radio wave = as a very small signal, we can increase the received *energy* by = artificially increasing the current. Or if we're using a tiny dipole = antenna (a capacitor,) we can increase the short dipole's received = energy by applying a large AC voltage across the antenna terminals. NOT CRACKPOTTY AFTER ALL Note that this does not violate any rules of conventional physics. If we = add stronger EM fields, they sum with the incoming EM plane waves and = cause these radio waves to bend towards the tiny antenna. This increases = the antenna's EA (effective area or effective aperture.) We can alter = the coupling between the antenna and the surrounding space, but the = total energy still follows the conservation law. The altered fields only = change the "virtual size" (EA) of the antenna.=20 More importantly, the phenomena only arises in electrically "small" = antennas. If you already have a large 1/2-wave dipole, then adding an AC = voltage to it cannot make it seem any bigger. However, if you have a = 10KHz loop antenna the size of a pie plate, you can make that antenna = seem very, very large indeed. Think like this: how large is the diameter = of the antenna's nearfield region at 10KHz? Around 10 kilometers? What = if we could extract half of the incoming energy from that entire = volume?!! In theory we can. In theory a tiny loop antenna can work as = well as a longwire 1/2-wave antenna which is 10KM long. Here's a way to look at the process. If I can create a field which = CANCELS OUT some of the energy in an extended region around a tiny = antenna, doesn't this violate the law of Conservation of Energy? Field = energy cannot just vanish! That's correct: if we cancel out the energy = in the nearfield of an antenna, this is actually an absorption process, = and the energy winds up inside the antenna. If we ACTIVELY DRIVE an = antenna with an "anti-wave", we will force the antenna to absorb more = energy from the EM fields in the surrounding region of space than it = ordinarily would. BUT HOW DO ATOMS DO IT? OK, if this supposedly explains how tiny atoms can receive long light = waves, how can we increase the voltage signal to a SINGLE ATOM?! = Actually it's not that difficult. The key is to use EM energy stored as = oscillating fields; i.e. resonance. If an atom resonates = electromagnetically at the same frequency as the incident light waves, = then that atom will store accumulated energy. It will behave as an = oscillator, and it will become surrounded by an increasingly strong AC = electromagnetic field as time goes by. If this alternating field is = locked into the correct phase with the light wave, then the atom's = fields can interact with the light waves and cancel out quite a bit of = the light energy present in the nearfield region around the atom. The = energy doesn't vanish, instead it ends up INSIDE the atom. By resonantly = creating an "anti-wave", the tiny atom has "sucked energy" out of the = enormous light waves as they go by.=20 Impossible? Please track down the C. Bohren paper in the references = below. He analyzes the behavior of small metal particles and dielectric = particles exposed to long-wave EM radiation, and rigorously shows that a = resonance can cause the tiny particles to "act large." How can this stuff be true?! After all, electric and magnetic fields = cannot affect each other directly. They work by superposition. For the = same reason, a light wave cannot deflect another light wave. Ah, but as = I said before, the mathematics of the fields around a coil or a = capacitor are not the same as the mathematics of freely-propagating EM = waves. If we add the field of a bar magnet to the field of a radio wave, = and if the bar magnet is in the right place (at a spot where the b-field = of the radio wave is reversing polarity,) then the radio wave becomes = distorted in such a way that it bends towards the bar magnet. As the EM = wave progresses, we must flip the magnet over in order to keep the field = pattern from bending away again. Now replace the bar magnet with an AC = coil, and vary its current so the fields stay locked to the traveling = radio wave, and the wave energy will ALWAYS bend towards the coil and be = absorbed. The coil will also emit its own EM ripple. This emission is = well known: atoms scatter half the light they absorb, and dipole = antennas behave as scatterers for incoming EM waves. When all is said = and done, our oscillating coil has absorbed half of the incoming EM = energy and re-emitted (or SCATTERED) the rest. A "HOLE" IN PHYSICS When viewed as a halfwave receiving antenna, a resonant atom acts as if = it has grown in size to fill its entire nearfield region. In terms of = Quantum Mechanics, it does so by locally creating a large virtual-photon = AC field which normally would not be there. In a sense, this new field = BECOMES THE ANTENNA. This new field extends to 2/(Pi*wavelength) = distance around the atom, and this distance can be thousands of times = larger than the atom's radius. A 1-angstrom atom with a large AC field = can behave as a 1/3-wave antenna at optical or UV frequencies. Though = tiny, the atom can capture longer wave radiation such as UV light. Our = 1-angstrom atom becomes a virtual <200 angstrom antenna, and efficiently = absorbs 500A EUV photons. Very strange, no? Apparently the missing = details of the absorption of light wave by atoms is a "hole" in physics, = not unlike Randell Mills' *energy hole*. END More later, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C2B96B.D1238380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings,
 
Some time ago Horace Heffner expressed that one of his main = objections to=20 the Mills' hydrino (below ground state hydrogen) was the requirement = that a=20 photon of relatively long wave length could be = effectively captured by=20 a hydrogen atom whose electron "circumscribed" a far shorter = standing wave=20 diameter around the atom, i.e. the electron's de Broglie = wavelength=20 was far shorter than the wavelength of the photon in question. This is a = key=20 point to Mills orbitsphere theory.
 
I don't believe that an entirely satisfactory answer has been = verbalized=20 yet, by Mills or anyone else, and it is a complicated issue that = involves a=20 number of alternative visualizations and mathematics. Mills has provided = the=20 math but not very good verbalization, IMHO. It would probably not be = worth the=20 effort to try to begin to resolve or improve (express Mills' = math in=20 more accessible layman's terms than Mills has been able to do) at this = point,=20 had not BLP already actually collected a fair amount of actual hydrinos. =
 
In the coming months, if/when independent laboratories confirm that = what=20 Mills has collected are indeed hydrogen atoms far below ground state = (Mills says=20 some labs have already confirmed), then many of us who have followed = this work=20 and believe that it is also at the very core of cold fusion phenomena = (and=20 deuterium stripping and all kinds of related LENR) would like to have an = accessible verbalization of how indeed photons of multiples of 13.6 eV = are=20 captured and exchanged by hydrogen atoms and how shrinkage affects = nuclear=20 reactions.
 
To that end I would like to propose another piece to a complex = jigsaw=20 puzzle that fits in next to Robin von Spaandonk's "lissajous" idea = for a=20 compound methodology that can be termed "enfoldment."
 
Before a longer wavelength of EM energy can be contained, it first = must be=20 captured and at the same time enfolded from two dimensions into three=20 dimensions,  just as if it were funneled down a vortex, almost like = a=20 bath-tub drain - going from a large flat area down into a = small =20 spherical area. As it turns out, this vortex process has lots of = relevance=20 to *radio antenna* theory and design.

Bill Beaty has written an excellent piece on  = 'Energy-sucking'=20 Radio Antennas,
http://www.amasci.com/= tesla/tesceive.html
 
I am quoting a lot of his wording below, intact from the web = site with=20 some relevant parts paraphrased or added to apply to the present = situation. BTW=20 all figures given are just rough estimates - as this is just now being = put down=20 for the first time, and there will be large gaps so please correct = even the=20 smallest detail if you so desire.
 
First. let's back-track one step with the following explanation of = the=20 extent of Mills' extremely far-reaching "revisionism": In 1924, Louis de = Broglie=20 revisited Compton's momentum phenomena from the opposite direction; that = is, he=20 hypothesized that matter, in particular, electrons, could exhibit = wave-like=20 properties. These waves are now called matter waves and they have always = been=20 assumed but not proven to be effectively two dimensional.
 
p =3D h / lambda
lambda de Broglie =3D h / mv
 
De Broglie's matter waves were experimentally substantiated by = others=20 -which formed the basis for Bohr's assumptions that there exist certain = stable=20 electron orbitals and that an electron's angular momentum is = quantatized. In=20 1929 de Broglie was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery = of the=20 wave nature of electrons.
 
The ground state electron, n =3D 1, has a circumference of one = standing wave=20 in two dimensions, according to these theories. The radius of the first = excited=20 state, n =3D 2, has a circumference of two standing waves. Thus, before = Mills came=20 on the scene, hydrogen electrons cannot be said to decay below n=3D1, = unless=20 chemically constrained by other atoms in molecules, because = they must=20 fit within their standing 2D waveforms - and only those whose = circumferences=20 equal a multiple of the electron's de Broglie wavelength are permitted. = For a=20 picture of this (which will save more than 1000 words) go to the bottom = of this=20 page:
http://online.cctt.org/physicslab/content/PhyAPB/le= ssonnotes/dualnature/deBroglie.asp
 
Standard QM sought to change the 2D nature of the de Broglie/ Bohr = electron=20 by introducing "probability" into the mix, but that didn't succeed very = well and=20 now Mills' CQM seeks to change the standard doctrine by eliminating = the=20 idea of a 2D standing wave altogether in favor of a superimposed 3D = geometry,=20 the orbitsphere, where the n=3D1 ground state is not really a two = dimensional=20 orbit but, in effect, there exist a much higher number of = "virtual standing waves" in 3D so that n=3D1 may be=20 highly preferred over fractional states, but others are possible, = so long=20 as they are multiples of 13.6 eV below N=3D1. IOW the electron makes = multiple=20 offset orbits in 3D, circumscribing a sphere before once again = being in=20 phase. The lissajous concept is the best way to visualize this = offsetting=20 principle and Wolfram has a pretty good explanation of a circle doing = lissajous=20 transformation becoming spherical at:
http://mathworld.wolfra= m.com/Circle.html
There is an animated version somewhere on the web but I have lost = the=20 URL.
 
At any rate, going from 2D to 3D sounds simple, but it is a radical = departure from standard physics and could win Mills a big Nordic prize=20 someday.
 
Ok getting back to earth,  here is what Bill B has = to say=20 about antennae, slightly paraphrased to apply to UV rather than RF or=20 visible light photons:
 
"Here's something that has always bugged me: light waves are about = 5000=20 Angstroms in wavelength, while atoms are more like 1 Angstrom across. = [for 13.6=20 eV EUV photons the ratio is closer to 500-1]. How can such tiny = "antennas"=20 absorb such long waves? Usually it takes a half-wave antenna to do this. = I never=20 encountered a good explanation for this during my physics education. It = turns=20 out that the explanation is both little- known and fascinating.
 
Classical EM theory implies that atoms cannot emit or absorb much = light.=20 They are thousands of times smaller than light waves, yet atoms = obviously=20 interact very strongly with light. How can they do this? Perhaps they = employ=20 Quantum Mechanics in order to get around this problem? There must be = some=20 explanation. After all, when a metal dipole antenna is only one foot = across, it=20 certainly cannot absorb much 5000ft-wave radiation. Do atoms employ=20 "photon-impact" rather than the EM wave mechanics of dipole antennas? =
 
The answer turns out to be NO. The truth is quite strange and=20 concerns the ability of an LC resonator to "funnel" incoming=20 electromagnetic waves for capture by virtual antennas. These antennas = behave as=20 if they were much larger than their physical diameter, as if there was = an=20 "invisible lens" focusing more of the incoming EM energy upon the = antenna. In=20 conventional terms, it's about enhancing the EA (effective aperture) of = small=20 antennas.
 
HOW DO ATOMS DO IT?
 
I stumbled across the answer to my questions in a paper about = VLF/ELF loop=20 antennas. Apparently Quantum Mechanics does not supply the answer. = Instead the=20 question of small antenna behavior is resolved by a little-known section = of=20 classical electromagnetism. It involves resonance, but more importantly, = it=20 involves the magnetic and electric fields which surround any = antenna.
 
An "electrically small" antenna is one where the physical antenna = size is=20 far smaller than the EM wavelength being received. At first glance, = electrically=20 small antennas aren't all that strange. If we use them for radio = transmissions,=20 they can work just fine. To force a tiny antenna to emit significant = energy, we=20 can simply give it a huge driving signal (high voltage on a tiny dipole, = or high=20 current on a tiny loop.) If the EM fields 1-wavelength away from the = small=20 antenna are significant, then the EM radiation will be significant. It's = almost=20 as if the EM FIELDS are acting as the antenna. Weak fields act "small," = while=20 intense fields behave as a "large" antenna. This explains how a tiny = antenna can=20 transmit lots of EM. But what about reception?
 
It turns out that we can do something similar for reception; for = "input" as=20 opposed to "output." By manipulating the EM fields, we can force an=20 electrically-small receiving antenna to behave as if it was very, VERY = large.=20 The secret is to intentionally impress an artificial AC field upon the = receiving=20 antenna. We'll transmit in order to receive, as it were. Normal = half-wave=20 antennas already do exactly this. For example, the wire of a half-wave = antenna=20 is far too thin to block incoming radio waves and absorb them. However, = the=20 current in such an antenna, as well as the voltage between the two = wires, these=20 create space-filling EM fields which have a constant phase relative to = the=20 incoming waves. Because of the constant phase, these fields interact = with those=20 incoming waves. They create the lobes of an interference pattern.
 
TRANSMIT IN ORDER TO RECEIVE?!!!
 
Rather than relying upon the antenna itself to generate fields via = the=20 current or voltage of the antenna wires, we could use a power supply [or = the=20 electron's own virtual power supply]. If an antenna is 1/500 wavelength=20 across,  it will behave as if it's 1/3 wavelength across if its own = resonance is closely matched or has a deficit "energy hole" which can be = filled=20 by the incoming wave. To make it appear as the same frequency as the = incoming=20 waves, the phase must be adjusted to a special value. Take a loop = antenna as an=20 example. If you want your little loop-antenna to receive far more radio = energy,=20 then put a big AC current through the antenna so that the phase of this = current=20 is locked in synch with the waves you wish to receive, and is lagging by = 90=20 degrees. The voltage across the antenna terminals stays about the same = as when=20 an undriven antenna receives those waves. However, since the current is = much=20 higher in the driven antenna, the energy received per second is much = higher as=20 well. This seems like engineering blasphemy! How can adding a larger = current=20 increase the RECEIVED power? Yet this actually does work. Power equals = volts=20 times amps. To increase the RF power coming in from distant sources, = increase=20 the amps intentionally.
 
This sounds really silly. How can we improve the reception of an=20 electrically small antenna by using it to *transmit*? The secret = involves the=20 cancellation of magnetic or electric fields in the near-field region of = the=20 antenna. The physics of the nearfield region of antennas has a kind of=20 nonlinearity because conductors are present. In the electromagnetic = nearfield=20 region, it's possible to change the "E" of a wave without changing the = "M"=20 (change the antenna's voltage without changing the current), and vice = versa.=20 Superposition of EM traveling waves does not quite apply here because = the ruling=20 equations for energy propagation near conductors depends upon V^2 or I^2 = separately. In addition, V is almost independent of I in the near-field = region.=20 If a very small loop antenna (a coil) should happen to receive a radio = wave as a=20 very small signal, we can increase the received *energy* by artificially = increasing the current. Or if we're using a tiny dipole antenna (a = capacitor,)=20 we can increase the short dipole's received energy by applying a large = AC=20 voltage across the antenna terminals.
 
 
NOT CRACKPOTTY AFTER ALL
 
Note that this does not violate any rules of conventional physics. = If we=20 add stronger EM fields, they sum with the incoming EM plane waves and = cause=20 these radio waves to bend towards the tiny antenna. This increases the = antenna's=20 EA (effective area or effective aperture.) We can alter the coupling = between the=20 antenna and the surrounding space, but the total energy still follows = the=20 conservation law. The altered fields only change the "virtual size" (EA) = of the=20 antenna.
 
More importantly, the phenomena only arises in electrically "small" = antennas. If you already have a large 1/2-wave dipole, then adding an AC = voltage=20 to it cannot make it seem any bigger. However, if you have a 10KHz loop = antenna=20 the size of a pie plate, you can make that antenna seem very, very large = indeed.=20 Think like this: how large is the diameter of the antenna's nearfield = region at=20 10KHz? Around 10 kilometers? What if we could extract half of the = incoming=20 energy from that entire volume?!! In theory we can. In theory a tiny = loop=20 antenna can work as well as a longwire 1/2-wave antenna which is 10KM=20 long.
 
Here's a way to look at the process. If I can create a field which = CANCELS=20 OUT some of the energy in an extended region around a tiny antenna, = doesn't this=20 violate the law of Conservation of Energy? Field energy cannot just = vanish!=20 That's correct: if we cancel out the energy in the nearfield of an = antenna, this=20 is actually an absorption process, and the energy winds up inside the = antenna.=20 If we ACTIVELY DRIVE an antenna with an "anti-wave", we will force the = antenna=20 to absorb more energy from the EM fields in the surrounding region of = space than=20 it ordinarily would.
 
 
BUT HOW DO ATOMS DO IT?
 
OK, if this supposedly explains how tiny atoms can receive long = light=20 waves, how can we increase the voltage signal to a SINGLE ATOM?! = Actually it's=20 not that difficult. The key is to use EM energy stored as oscillating = fields;=20 i.e. resonance. If an atom resonates electromagnetically at the same = frequency=20 as the incident light waves, then that atom will store accumulated = energy. It=20 will behave as an oscillator, and it will become surrounded by an = increasingly=20 strong AC electromagnetic field as time goes by. If this alternating = field is=20 locked into the correct phase with the light wave, then the atom's = fields can=20 interact with the light waves and cancel out quite a bit of the light = energy=20 present in the nearfield region around the atom. The energy doesn't = vanish,=20 instead it ends up INSIDE the atom. By resonantly creating an = "anti-wave", the=20 tiny atom has "sucked energy" out of the enormous light waves as they go = by.=20
 
Impossible? Please track down the C. Bohren paper in the references = below.=20 He analyzes the behavior of small metal particles and dielectric = particles=20 exposed to long-wave EM radiation, and rigorously shows that a resonance = can=20 cause the tiny particles to "act large."
 
How can this stuff be true?! After all, electric and magnetic = fields cannot=20 affect each other directly. They work by superposition. For the same = reason, a=20 light wave cannot deflect another light wave. Ah, but as I said before, = the=20 mathematics of the fields around a coil or a capacitor are not the same = as the=20 mathematics of freely-propagating EM waves. If we add the field of a bar = magnet=20 to the field of a radio wave, and if the bar magnet is in the right = place (at a=20 spot where the b-field of the radio wave is reversing polarity,) then = the radio=20 wave becomes distorted in such a way that it bends towards the bar = magnet. As=20 the EM wave progresses, we must flip the magnet over in order to keep = the field=20 pattern from bending away again. Now replace the bar magnet with an AC = coil, and=20 vary its current so the fields stay locked to the traveling radio wave, = and the=20 wave energy will ALWAYS bend towards the coil and be absorbed. The coil = will=20 also emit its own EM ripple. This emission is well known: atoms scatter = half the=20 light they absorb, and dipole antennas behave as scatterers for incoming = EM=20 waves. When all is said and done, our oscillating coil has absorbed half = of the=20 incoming EM energy and re-emitted (or SCATTERED) the rest.
 
 
A "HOLE" IN PHYSICS
 
When viewed as a halfwave receiving antenna, a resonant atom acts = as if it=20 has grown in size to fill its entire nearfield region. In terms of = Quantum=20 Mechanics, it does so by locally creating a large virtual-photon AC = field which=20 normally would not be there. In a sense, this new field BECOMES THE = ANTENNA.=20 This new field extends to 2/(Pi*wavelength) distance around the atom, = and this=20 distance can be thousands of times larger than the atom's radius. A = 1-angstrom=20 atom with a large AC field can behave as a 1/3-wave antenna at optical = or UV=20 frequencies. Though tiny, the atom can capture longer wave radiation = such as UV=20 light. Our 1-angstrom atom becomes a virtual <200 angstrom = antenna, and=20 efficiently absorbs 500A EUV photons. Very strange, no?  Apparently = the=20 missing details of the absorption of light wave by atoms is a "hole" in = physics,=20 not unlike Randell Mills' *energy hole*.  END
 
More later,
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C2B96B.D1238380-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 11 15:02:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09227; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:01:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:01:16 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c2b9c5$43c9f500$e6ab4943 metrogr.org> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <004801c2b9ae$df9aafe0$0a016ea8 cpq> Subject: Re: Further effort to verbalize the "orbitshere" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:00:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2B99B.51FB7A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"BDREd.0.5G2.x8A8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2B99B.51FB7A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following book should be helpful: THE ELECTROMAGNETIC ORIGIN OF QUANTUM THEORY AND LIGHT by Dale M Grimes & Craig A Grimes (Pennsylvania State University, USA)=20 >HOW DO ATOMS DO IT? >I stumbled across the answer to my questions in a paper about VLF/ELF = loop antennas. Apparently >Quantum Mechanics does not supply the answer. = Instead the question of small antenna behavior is >resolved by a = little-known section of classical electromagnetism. It involves = resonance, but more >importantly, it involves the magnetic and electric = fields which surround any antenna. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2B99B.51FB7A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The following book should be helpful:
 
THE ELECTROMAGNETIC ORIGIN OF QUANTUM THEORY AND = LIGHT

by Dale M Grimes & Craig A Grimes=20 (Pennsylvania State University, USA)

 
>HOW DO ATOMS DO IT?
 
>I stumbled across the answer to my questions in a paper about = VLF/ELF=20 loop antennas. Apparently >Quantum Mechanics does not supply the = answer.=20 Instead the question of small antenna behavior is >resolved by a = little-known=20 section of classical electromagnetism. It involves resonance, but more=20 >importantly, it involves the magnetic and electric fields which = surround any=20 antenna.
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2B99B.51FB7A60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 11 19:15:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16700; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:13:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:13:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:12:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Orville the Mouse flies on a Lifter! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"nHcKJ.0.s44.mrD8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Dear All, > >I have just updated my web site with a great event : > >On January 8th, 2003, ORVILLE, the mouse, has done successfully two >historical flights as a test pilot of the Lifter "Maximus". ORVILLE is now I have a question on the Lifter. How much energy is consumed in order to lift it and the "pilot"? The reason for this question is because of an article that was published in Popular Science. The subject was the flying bed spring. It levitated, but the energy consumption, in terms of energy consumer per pound lifted, was said to exceed that of a rocket. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 11 23:26:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24069; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:25:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:25:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 01:24:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA24041 Resent-Message-ID: <"zdlbZ3.0.wt5.QXH8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner Posted; > >On a Mac you simply type option-u before the vowel you wish to umlaut, e.g. >, , , , . Thanks for the tip Horace, I tried it and the two dots came out under the e. I used to be able to get the various keyboards to display so that I could find all of those odd keys. When I upgraded to OS 8.6, I lost that ability, do you happen to know how to do that? I just realized why so many people attach documents. I was using the WilTel machine with Windows 98 at the office. I had created a document in Word, with the intention of pasting it into the email program. When I attempted to do that, there was no clipboard function. What a piece of junk! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 12 13:10:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05815; Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:08:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:08:23 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Orville the Mouse flies on a Lifter! Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:07:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1kl32vseh7d0ivppd091et9vmrfp6iek29 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA05777 Resent-Message-ID: <"XGm6W1.0.lQ1.6bT8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:12:44 -0600: Hi, [snip] >The reason for this question is because of an article that was >published in Popular Science. The subject was the flying bed spring. >It levitated, but the energy consumption, in terms of energy consumer >per pound lifted, was said to exceed that of a rocket. AFAIK the "flying bed spring", used ion wind exclusively. This is extremely inefficient. It seems probable that the lifters create a cloud of charge which couples mechanically to the atmosphere directly, allowing them to push/pull against the atmosphere itself. This is analogous to the action of an airfoil, in as much as both couple to the atmosphere mechanically. The difference is that an airfoil uses velocity, while the lifters use electrical charge. A comparison of the figures given for a typical lifter experiment with those of a large modern jet liner seems to indicate that fixed wing craft are more efficient by a factor of between 2 and 10 (as yet). However this is likely to improve with lifter design. Both lifting capacity and efficiency of lifters should improve with larger distances between the electrodes, and higher voltages. Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 12 13:19:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09577; Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:17:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:17:55 -0800 Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:16:48 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Genesis, not yet exodus To: vortex Message-id: <000901c2ba7f$eb1c2b60$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BA3C.DC8C9500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"OvM5-3.0.YL2.2kT8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BA3C.DC8C9500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies, in advance... This is the story that many of us wish would either "come clean" or just = go away, as it seems to be such a transparent scam, at least as it has = been presented to the public so far.=20 And this will hopefully be my last post on them, pending something more = substantive - but, considering that they are continuing to perpetuate = the proposition that they have an earth-shaking technology, appear to = have already secured major funding; have manufactured several = pre-production prototypes - and, mostly, considering how remarkable it = would be, if even partly true- then this background provides a = justification for some wee-bit more speculation regarding a possible = GWE-BLP connection. They have updated certain info on the site which makes it appear (on = further reconsideration from the previous posting) that : 1) if Genesis is for real (very doubtful) and=20 2) if they have developed an OU water-splitting hydrogen generator, = combined with a fuel cell and 3) if they are co-opting or modifying any of Blacklight Power=92s (BLP) = hydrino technology,=20 then it is not the latest hydrino technology which they are using, the = microwave water plasma, as I had been speculating in the previous posts. = There is an earlier BLP technique that actually fits this updated = scenario better PLUS it is not exactly owned by BLP, so another mystery = presents itself. Thermacore International is now a subsidiary of Modine Manufacturing = Company, and a global supplier of thermal engineering products for many = industries. With manufacturing locations in Lancaster, Pa in the USA, = and overseas in Mexico, the U.K., Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, Thermacore = provides B2B manufacturing to other OEMs along with design R&D & = manufacturing. It was formerly an independent ultra high-tech outfit, = with compounded growth of 40% annually before the manufacturing economy = went sour, and more recently it was acquired by Modine. Randell Mills and first research facility were also located in Lancaster = in the early 1990s, and there he early-on teamed up with Thermacore to = develop a "wet" electrolytic hydrino cell using potassium catalyst with = phenomenal, but little publicized, characteristics.=20 The original patent for the wet cell, in fact, is owned by Thermacore, = not BLP, but it seems that there were complicated licensing and NDA = agreements highly favorable to BLP- and the partnership soon = disintegrated. Mills went on to totally drop the "wet" electrolytic = hydrino research in favor of: first, a gas-phase implementation, but now = almost exclusively, plasma phase. The microwave driven water plasma is = his latest attempt at commercialization and seems more doable - but = maybe not in the context of a *hydrogen generator*=20 Meanwhile, nobody on the outside really seems to knows what was going on = with Thermacore or what their relationship with Mills became after = merger with Modine. The only thing that seems clear is that Modine = decided not to pursue the technology, perhaps because of onerous = pre-existing agreements with BLP. However, it could well be that the wet = electrolytic hydrino technology, and perhaps some of the original = personnel, did not fit well into the Modine corporate culture, and = realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet cell, these R&D folks = decided to leave, get funding and do something on their own.=20 Perhaps they are some of the "400 visionaries" and perhaps GWE picked = them up to focus on the wet hydrino cell (and not the microwave plasma = cell), and perhaps GWE then made a major breakthrough, thanks to former = Thermacore researchers, but at the same time GWE doesn't want to = disclose the connection for reasons related to intellectual property and = accusations of corporate theft.=20 Here are some very interesting pdf files from the Mills' site, relating = to Thermacore: http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf = http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Final-Report-Nascent-Hydrogen.pdf Consider this quote from the first paper: "Light water electrolytic = experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding = example is a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of = electrical input. The cell has operated continuously for over one = year..."=20 For emphasis, let me repeat: THE CELL OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY FOR OVER ONE = YEAR. This was prior to the Modine merger.=20 Now, remember, this statement is not coming from some fly-by-night = self-promoting entrepreneur, not some Stan Meyer, nor even some = university professor who is ignorant of manufacturing realities and = corporate intrigue - but instead it comes from one of the most = well-respected of ultra high-tech firms, a manufacturing firm, and the = inventors of the heat-pipe and many other wonderful thermal inventions.=20 BUT almost no-one picked up on this announcement at the time, or at best = didn't take it very seriously, probably because of the bad-press that = the whole field of cold fusion was getting at the time. Again, if Genesis is for real then this quote above may be the "smoking = gun" pointing to where they obtained the basic technology.=20 BTW, don't forget, this is all taking place in the back yard of the = "Shaws" of GWE... ...or is it all just a tempest in a teapot? Regards, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BA3C.DC8C9500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apologies, in advance...
 
This is the story that many of us wish would either "come clean" or = just go=20 away, as it seems to be such a transparent scam, at least as it has been = presented to the public so far.
 
And this will hopefully be my last post on them, pending something = more=20 substantive - but, considering that they are continuing to perpetuate = the=20 proposition that they have an earth-shaking technology, appear to have = already=20 secured major funding; have manufactured several pre-production = prototypes -=20 and, mostly, considering how remarkable it would be, if even partly = true-=20 then this background provides a justification for some wee-bit = more=20 speculation regarding a possible GWE-BLP connection.
 
They have updated certain info on the site which makes it = appear (on=20 further reconsideration from the previous posting) that :

1) if Genesis is for real (very doubtful) and

2) if they have developed an OU water-splitting hydrogen generator, = combined=20 with a fuel cell and

3) if they are co-opting or modifying any of Blacklight Power=92s = (BLP) hydrino=20 technology,

then it is not the latest hydrino technology which they are using, = the=20 microwave water plasma, as I had been speculating in the previous posts. = There=20 is an earlier BLP technique that actually fits this updated scenario = better PLUS=20 it is not exactly owned by BLP, so another mystery presents itself.

Thermacore International is now a subsidiary of Modine Manufacturing = Company,=20 and a global supplier of thermal engineering products for many = industries. With=20 manufacturing locations in Lancaster, Pa in the USA, and overseas in = Mexico, the=20 U.K., Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, Thermacore provides B2B manufacturing to = other=20 OEMs along with design R&D & manufacturing. It was formerly an=20 independent ultra high-tech outfit, with compounded growth of 40% = annually=20 before the manufacturing economy went sour, and more recently it was = acquired by=20 Modine.

Randell Mills and first research facility were also located in = Lancaster in=20 the early 1990s, and there he early-on teamed up with Thermacore to = develop a=20 "wet" electrolytic hydrino cell using potassium catalyst with = phenomenal, but=20 little publicized, characteristics.

The original patent for the wet cell, in fact, is owned by = Thermacore, not=20 BLP, but it seems that there were complicated licensing and NDA = agreements=20 highly favorable to BLP- and the partnership soon disintegrated. Mills = went on=20 to totally drop the "wet" electrolytic hydrino research in favor of: = first, a=20 gas-phase implementation, but now almost exclusively, plasma phase. The=20 microwave driven water plasma is his latest attempt at commercialization = and=20 seems more doable - but maybe not in the context of a *hydrogen = generator*

Meanwhile, nobody on the outside really seems to knows what was = going on=20 with Thermacore or what their relationship with Mills became after = merger with=20 Modine. The only thing that seems clear is that Modine decided not to = pursue the=20 technology, perhaps because of onerous pre-existing agreements with BLP. = However, it could well be that the wet electrolytic hydrino technology, = and=20 perhaps some of the original personnel, did not fit well into the Modine = corporate culture, and realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet = cell,=20 these R&D folks decided to leave, get funding and do=20 something on their own.

Perhaps they are some of the "400 visionaries" and perhaps GWE picked = them up=20 to focus on the wet hydrino cell (and not the microwave plasma cell), = and=20 perhaps GWE then made a major breakthrough, thanks to former Thermacore=20 researchers, but at the same time GWE doesn't want to disclose the = connection=20 for reasons related to intellectual property and accusations of = corporate theft.=20

Here are some very  interesting pdf files from the Mills' = site,=20 relating to Thermacore:

http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf=20 ht= tp://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Final-Report-Nascent-Hydrogen.pdf

Consider this quote from the first paper: "Light water electrolytic=20 experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding = example is=20 a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of electrical input. = The=20 cell has operated continuously for over one year..."

For emphasis, let me repeat: THE CELL OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY FOR OVER = ONE=20 YEAR. This was prior to the Modine merger.

Now, remember, this statement is not coming from some fly-by-night=20 self-promoting entrepreneur, not some Stan Meyer, nor even = some=20 university professor who is ignorant of manufacturing realities and = corporate=20 intrigue - but instead it comes from one of the most well-respected = of=20 ultra high-tech firms, a manufacturing firm, and the inventors of the = heat-pipe=20 and many other wonderful thermal inventions.

BUT almost no-one picked up on this announcement at the time, or at = best=20 didn't take it very seriously, probably because of the bad-press = that the=20 whole field of cold fusion was getting at the time.

Again, if Genesis is for real then this quote above may be the = "smoking=20 gun" pointing to where they obtained the basic technology.

BTW, don't forget, this is all taking place in the back yard of the = "Shaws"=20 of GWE...

...or is it all just a tempest in a teapot?

Regards,

Jones

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2BA3C.DC8C9500-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 12 17:53:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05933; Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:52:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:52:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c2babf$5021afa0$0979ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IPY=?= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:42:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"bdYmc2.0.cS1.AlX8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread, as it now seems to be centered on Mac software. In Windows on a PC, there is an Accessories/Tools/Character Map function that will expose the entire character set of any of the fonts in use. You find the umlauted o, select it, copy it to the clipboard and paste it into your document where the cursor is. If you have written an 'o' and highlighted it, the copy function will replace it with the umlauted version. I take a small perverse pleasure in discovering some aspect in which Mac OS is not superior to the supposedly clunky, awkward, crash-prone Windows. Mike Carrell > >Horace Heffner Posted; > > > >On a Mac you simply type option-u before the vowel you wish to umlaut, e.g. > >, , , , . > > Thanks for the tip Horace, I tried it and the two dots came out under > the e. I used to be able to get the various keyboards to display so > that I could find all of those odd keys. When I upgraded to OS 8.6, I > lost that ability, do you happen to know how to do that? > > I just realized why so many people attach documents. I was using the > WilTel machine with Windows 98 at the office. I had created a > document in Word, with the intention of pasting it into the email > program. When I attempted to do that, there was no clipboard > function. What a piece of junk! > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 12 20:40:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09961; Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:39:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:39:12 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1kl32vseh7d0ivppd091et9vmrfp6iek29 4ax.com> References: <1kl32vseh7d0ivppd091et9vmrfp6iek29 4ax.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:39:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: My Bible Code research Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"mBjYU1.0.UR2.mBa8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > >R. van Spaandonk Posted; > >It isn't terrorism we need to fear, >it's apathy and stupidity. This prompted my to post my latest research. I want to state up front that like it or not, this works. I recently took delivery on Michael Drosnin's Bible Code II, The Countdown. It begins with his waking up on 9/11 to the crash of the first airplane hitting the WTC. He went out on his roof and watched the second airplane hit. He returned to his computer and entered Twin Towers into his Bible Code program. Up came the first cluster which included Twin Towers and airplane. When I saw this, I called my Hebrew tutor and spelled out the word. He confirmed that it was matos was airplane, I was hooked. I've been telling people that I have some good news, and some bad news. The good news is that some Islamists are going to hit us with some nuclear weapons in the year 5766. Now you might say, 5766, that's 3760+ years, Well the bad news that it the date on the Hebrew calendar. 5766 begins in the late summer of 2005. That ought to cure people's apathy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 12 23:46:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11725; Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:45:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:45:51 -0800 From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr Message-ID: <3E226F18.D0267FD9 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:47:36 +0200 Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Propagation Speed of Gravity and the Relativistic Time Delay Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O6AlA1.0.7t2.lwc8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, It is said that recent measurements with Jupiter can not be used to calculate speed of the gravity. BTW, the other paper is also on the lanl archive. -- http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0301145 Title: Propagation Speed of Gravity and the Relativistic Time Delay Authors: Clifford M. Will Comments: 15 pages, 1 figure, to be submitted to the Astrophysical Journal We calculate the delay in the propagation of a light signal past a massive body that moves with speed v, under the assumption that the speed of propagation of the gravitational interaction c_g differs from that of light. Using the post-Newtonian approximation, we consider an expansion in powers of v/c beyond the leading ``Shapiro'' time delay effect, while working to first order only in Gm/c^2, and show that the altered propagation speed of the gravitational signal has no effect whatsoever on the time delay to first order in v/c beyond the leading term, although it will have an effect to second and higher order. We show that the only other possible effects of an altered speed c_g at this order arise from a modification of the parametrized post-Newtonian (PPN) coefficient \alpha_1 of the metric from the value zero predicted by general relativity. Current solar-system measurements already provide tight bounds on such a modification. We conclude that recent measurements of the propagation of radio signals past Jupiter are sensitive to \alpha_1, but are not directly sensitive to the speed of propagation of gravity. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 00:45:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA31337; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:44:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:44:01 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:42:17 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA31188 Resent-Message-ID: <"e6Neb.0.Lf7.Hnd8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:24 AM 1/12/3, thomas malloy wrote: >>Horace Heffner Posted; >> >>On a Mac you simply type option-u before the vowel you wish to umlaut, e.g. >>, , , , . > >Thanks for the tip Horace, I tried it and the two dots came out under >the e. I used to be able to get the various keyboards to display so >that I could find all of those odd keys. When I upgraded to OS 8.6, I >lost that ability, do you happen to know how to do that? I'm still runnning my email on OS 7.5, so I probably can't help you. On OS 7.5 you still have the Key Caps function to select under the Apple menu to do that. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 09:40:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10160; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:38:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:38:22 -0800 From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr Message-ID: <3E22FA06.789E4AF2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:40:22 +0200 Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex CC: Scott Little Subject: Rayleigh jets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Dzzk12.0.gU2.Ecl8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Nice pictures of first visual observation of Rayleigh Jets. -- http://www.physik.tu-ilmenau.de/exp2/research/Coulomb%20Stability/Rayleigh%20jets.htm Coulomb Stability of highly Charged Droplets and Rayleigh Jets -- Rayleigh jets come into view (http://www.physicsweb.org/article/news/7/1/3) 9 January 2003 Physicists have observed a phenomenon predicted by Lord Rayleigh in 1882 for the first time. Thomas Leisner and colleagues at Ilmenau Technical University in Germany used high-speed microscopic imaging to observe the "Rayleigh jets" that are produced when a charged droplet of liquid becomes unstable and explodes (D.Duft et al. 2003 Nature 421 128). Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 11:31:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04953; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:26:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:26:51 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113141455.02277c78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:26:57 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Dutch committee more or less condemns Lomborg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA04893 Resent-Message-ID: <"iEFb52.0.BD1.vBn8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.forsk.dk/uvvu/nyt/udtaldebat/bl_decision.htm In my opinion, this document illustrates the folly of trying to legislate academic rigor or academic honesty. The statements in this document about peer review, for example, are silly & naieve, although they are widely accepted. I think Lomborg's book is schlock science, but the best response is to ignore it. The task assigned to this committee by the government should only apply to narrowly defined egregious cases of scientific fraud, which are probably rare. The committee's ruling will satisfy no one, and it has already made Lomborg a hero to the anti-environmentalists: "Objectively speaking, the publication of the work under consideration is deemed to fall within the concept of scientific dishonesty. In view of the subjective requirements made in terms of intent or gross negligence, however, Bjrn Lomborg's publication cannot fall within the bounds of this characterization. Conversely, the publication is deemed clearly contrary to the standards of good scientific practice." To paragraph 1, I say so what? Mere dishonesty is common in most institutions, in people in all walks of life. If you censured people for it, or took their jobs away Congress and Wall Street would be deserted. As for paragraph 2, there should not be any subjective requirements in the law that convened this committee. As far as I know, no one came up with a document or tape recording proving that Lomborg deliberately & willfully distorted data, so this enquiry should not have been held in the first place. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 12:28:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03651; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:25:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:25:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113144006.022572f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:20:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Genesis, not yet exodus In-Reply-To: <000901c2ba7f$eb1c2b60$0a016ea8 cpq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Cvrp5.0.xu.03o8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Here are some very interesting pdf files from the Mills' site, relating >to Thermacore: > >http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf >http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Final-Report-Nascent-Hydrogen.pdf > >Consider this quote from the first paper: "Light water electrolytic >experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding >example is a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of >electrical input. The cell has operated continuously for over one year..." > >For emphasis, let me repeat: THE CELL OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY FOR OVER ONE >YEAR. . . . That is a useful document, and Thermacore is (was) an impressive company. I was not aware of this document, but Thermacore's involvement with Mills was open and well documented. Donald Ernst of Thermacore gave an impressive lecture about this research at MIT in December 1992. He passed out copies of his veiwgraphs. I can supply copies in electronic format to anyone who is interested. I contacted Thermacore several times after 1992, but they never responded to inquiries. These results have not been replicated to my satisfaction. (As far as I know they haven't. Perhaps I overlooked something, or forgot something.) So I do not fully believe them. But they are impressive. They are among the best evidence that H2O Ni CF is possible, along with some of Patterson's work. I wish someone would replicate them -- or try to replicate them. Most other experiments with Ni have produced borderline, marginally convincing, low s/n ratios. >Now, remember, this statement is not coming from some >fly-by-night self-promoting entrepreneur, not some Stan Meyer, nor even >some university professor who is ignorant of manufacturing realities and >corporate intrigue - but instead it comes from one of the most >well-respected of ultra high-tech firms, a manufacturing firm, and the >inventors of the heat-pipe and many other wonderful thermal inventions. Yes, we must take Thermacore seriously, but they still have to be replicated. Conversely, if Meyer had been replicated we would believe him even though he was a certified flake. There are so many people waving so many claims we are forced to ignore most of them. We perform a kind of mental triage, dismissing people after judging by their reputations, behavior and apparent grasp of conventional physics. That isn't a very good system, but it is probably better than any other system. It is probably not worth trying to replicate people who seem crazy. BUT, you can never be sure. Meyer might have been right. We cannot say he was proved wrong, because as far as I know, only a few people tried to replicate him and results were inconclusive. He did not allow people to test his own machines, which is prima facie evidence he was nuts. (Not proof, but evidence.) Many historical inventors and discoverers had a reputation for being oddballs. Ordinary people sometimes considered them a little crazy -- or a lot crazy. Oliver Heaviside or Alan Turing are classic example. However, I have been dealing with scientists, programmers and other assorted prima donnas for many years. I do not think I would judge Heaviside crazy, or even unusual for his type. You learn to filter out odd behavior. It is mostly a shallow style they teach in grad school to help identify members of the profession. See the hilarious scene in the movie "I.Q." in which Einstein and his buddies teach the mechanic how to dress like a physicist. ("Use a necktie for a belt.") It is a little like dealing with big, brawny sailors, truck drivers or construction workers. Many of them are noisy and intimidating at first. After a while you mentally discount their macho style, and you see they are as smart, sensitive and kind as any other group of people. Of course many people who do not fit these stereotypes. Some brilliant CF scientists are not a bit eccentric in their demeanor. Some are downright colorless. Many sailors and truck drivers are quiet and unaggressive. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 13:48:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12528; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:44:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:44:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:43:02 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Genesis, not yet exodus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001301c2bb4c$bfc40b40$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113144006.022572f0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA12481 Resent-Message-ID: <"xIbQc3.0.Z33.jCp8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > Thermacore is (was) an impressive company. I > was not aware of this document, but Thermacore's involvement with Mills was > open and well documented. Donald Ernst of Thermacore gave an impressive > lecture about this research at MIT in December 1992. He passed out copies > of his veiwgraphs. I can supply copies in electronic format to anyone who > is interested. I contacted Thermacore several times after 1992, but they > never responded to inquiries. Yes, they seem to have gone "underground" with the research project soon after that, for reasons that still seem a mystery. IF the document is accurate, it almost defies logic that such a company would abandon, rather than piously pursue, this kind of project - which after all, would have fit in well with their other products - they are the proverbial "hot water heater" manufacturer. Plus they own the patent!! United States Patent 5,273,635 December 28, 1993 Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA) Electrolytic heater Abstract A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte. END It's 10 years old now. It doesn't mention producing or utilizing hydrogen in a fuel cell or "water-splitting" - but if anyone sees any of those names in regard to Genesis World Energy (Gernert, Shaubach or Ernst) then it is fair to assume that the basic patent has been modified to become the basis of the GWE gcell. Actually I believe Shaubach went over to BLP. OTOH, this is a similar type electrolysis setup to the one the EarthTech tried unsuccessfully to replicate, so there is likely to be something like a facilitating technique that was withheld from the disclosure, as Thermacore is not the kind of company that could be deluding itself, especially with a year-long successful run IMHO. BTW they have at least 45 other patents for mostly thermal engineering inventions. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 14:14:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26246; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:06:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:06:48 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113165724.00b18d98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:06:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Genesis, not yet exodus In-Reply-To: <001301c2bb4c$bfc40b40$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113144006.022572f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9E5I22.0.0Q6.uXp8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >OTOH, this is a similar type electrolysis setup to the one the EarthTech >tried unsuccessfully to replicate, so there is likely to be something like >a facilitating technique that was withheld from the disclosure, as >Thermacore is not the kind of company that could be deluding itself, >especially with a year-long successful run IMHO. As far as I know, withholding a "facilitating technique" would invalidate the patent. As you say, Thermacore is a professional organization run by people who understand the patent laws, so I do not think they would do this. It is hard to know what to make of EarthTech's failure, but they may not be sufficiently "skilled in the art" as patent lawyers say. That is the most common problem. It does not mean they are dopes or anything like that; it just means that in the context of this patent they are not sufficiently skilled. I am sure Thermacore's lawyer would argue that if the issue came up in court. That Air Force document sure is nonchalant. The authors seem to take it for granted that the Mills theory is correct. They cite one or two tests for shrinking hydrogen and seem to say, "okay, that's proved, now let's talk about engineering." Is is possible they are unaware of how controversial this is? (On another issue, let me note that Mills and Thermacore deny this is CF, as longtime readers are well aware. I assume it is CF because it seems unlikely that two similar yet separate revolutionary phenomena have been discovered, but I have no detailed knowledge of the Mills claim.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 14:30:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04796; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:27:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:27:13 -0800 From: Erikbaard aol.com Message-ID: <42.338fd3dd.2b549717 aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:26:31 EST Subject: Life on Venus To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10637 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nl9gn2.0.jA1.1rp8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All - I thought some of you might enjoy this article about the potential for Life on Venus: http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviation/article/0,12543,406876,00.html It took two years of pitching to get it published. Best regards, Erik From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 16:53:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21793; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:51:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:51:14 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Genesis, not yet exodus Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:50:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113144006.022572f0 pop.mindspring.com> <001301c2bb4c$bfc40b40$0a016ea8@cpq> <5.1.0.14.2.20030113165724.00b18d98@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113165724.00b18d98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA21763 Resent-Message-ID: <"M8oYd3.0.QK5.2yr8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:06:16 -0500: Hi, [snip] >(On another issue, let me note that Mills and Thermacore deny this is CF, >as longtime readers are well aware. I assume it is CF because it seems >unlikely that two similar yet separate revolutionary phenomena have been >discovered, but I have no detailed knowledge of the Mills claim.) > >- Jed > Mills and CF are far from mutually exclusive, despite Mills' wishes. IOW this may be an example of the one, facilitated by the other. (One could think of small hydrinos as very large, not very penetrating, neutrons, with all possible nuclear reactions that neutrons might bring about). Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 16:56:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22728; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:53:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:53:04 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dutch committee more or less condemns Lomborg Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:52:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8on62vosohiq99t646gt391r6ms1ksq6or 4ax.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113141455.02277c78 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030113141455.02277c78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA22640 Resent-Message-ID: <"nJ4-K1.0.tY5.lzr8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:26:57 -0500: Hi, [snip] >See: > >http://www.forsk.dk/uvvu/nyt/udtaldebat/bl_decision.htm The title should read "Danish committee...". Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 17:03:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28175; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:26 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex Subject: Re: Rayleigh jets Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 12:01:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3E22FA06.789E4AF2 verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: <3E22FA06.789E4AF2 verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA28099 Resent-Message-ID: <"GD8I91.0.9u6.X6s8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hamdix verisoft.com.tr's message of Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:40:22 +0200: Hi, [snip] >Hi, > >Nice pictures of first visual observation of Rayleigh Jets. > >-- > >http://www.physik.tu-ilmenau.de/exp2/research/Coulomb%20Stability/Rayleigh%20jets.htm >Coulomb Stability of highly Charged Droplets and Rayleigh Jets Quote: "It was found out that these droplets, when charged to the stability limit do not fisson in two equal parts but the droplet rather emits roughly 30% of its charge bound to very little mass (<1%). A detailed mechanism of this process however is not available." This makes a lot of sense to me. The charge on the droplet will separate as much as possible, placing itself at opposite ends of the droplet. The surface tension will keep the droplet together, while the charge needs only a minute amount of material as a carrier. IOW, the charge tries to leave, while the droplet tries to remain behind, held together by surface tension, and coherence. Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 18:49:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13208; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:46:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:46:38 -0800 From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr Message-ID: <3E237A72.AEE92CF1 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 04:48:18 +0200 Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rayleigh jets References: <3E22FA06.789E4AF2 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ENedH1.0.9E3.Eet8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If surface tension is replaced by gravitational forces on astronomical bodies, same phenomenon would occur. Logic you made is also valid on that as charge try to escape and mass is pulled back. As a result maximum charge with minimum mass would be ejected. There is also a gravitational positive feedback on the mechanism as elongated parts get far from the g center, they are less pulled back. May the jet from galaxy M87 caused by such a effect. See http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000706.html Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to hamdix verisoft.com.tr's message of Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:40:22 +0200: > Hi, > [snip] > > >Hi, > > > >Nice pictures of first visual observation of Rayleigh Jets. > > > >-- > > BTW, in the page I pointed (http://www.physik.tu-ilmenau.de/exp2/research/Coulomb%20Stability/Rayleigh%20jets.htm) there is a link to a PDF file of the article published on Nature. Regards, hamdix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 19:00:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19868; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:57:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:57:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3E237BF7.7050603 cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:54:47 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Life on Venus References: <42.338fd3dd.2b549717 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BxX1s1.0.Ms4.cot8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Look at the Venera images on my website: http://www.turbotip.webhop.net -- they surely like turtles to me from two different missions! There are plenty of other images of Venusian anomalies: (look for Venus) http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/vonnegut/432/anomaly_links.html http://www.dreamwater.com/nesjim/UltimateList/full_list.html Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona Erikbaard aol.com wrote: >Hi All - > >I thought some of you might enjoy this article about the potential for Life >on Venus: > >http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviation/article/0,12543,406876,00.html > >It took two years of pitching to get it published. > >Best regards, > >Erik > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 13 21:16:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12834; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:14:43 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rayleigh jets Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:14:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6v672vkc80tn67arb3msflurgdd6ver4ue 4ax.com> References: <3E22FA06.789E4AF2 verisoft.com.tr> <3E237A72.AEE92CF1@verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: <3E237A72.AEE92CF1 verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA12804 Resent-Message-ID: <"5Pmmd2.0.R83.2pv8-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to hamdix verisoft.com.tr's message of Tue, 14 Jan 2003 04:48:18 +0200: Hi, [snip] > >If surface tension is replaced by gravitational forces on astronomical >bodies, same phenomenon would occur. Logic you made is also valid on that >as charge try to escape and mass is pulled back. As a result maximum charge >with minimum mass would be ejected. There is also a gravitational positive >feedback on the mechanism as elongated parts get far from the g center, >they are less pulled back. May the jet from galaxy M87 caused by such a >effect. See http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000706.html This could be a jet, but it strikes me that it has all the hallmarks of an optical lens effect ( when taking a photo of a bright object one often gets "streamers" that look just like this). Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 14 10:55:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13586; Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:52:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:52:04 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030114135106.00b1b778 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:51:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QAsKf1.0.AK3.Jn59-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This may be exaggerated, but the author makes some good points: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030120&s=easterbrook012003 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 14 15:01:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29845; Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:59:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:59:02 -0800 Message-ID: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:58:25 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030114135106.00b1b778 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"klk722.0.AI7.sO99-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Jed: This article applies directly to my project. Here in North Texas we have the same problem with SUVs and there drivers. In the majority they are aggressive and obnoxious and sadly unaware of others making them vary dangerous. Others are fine but you have to wonder why they are driving those obnoxious things. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > This may be exaggerated, but the author makes some good points: > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030120&s=easterbrook012003 > > - Jed > > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 14 15:11:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03777; Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:09:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:09:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030114180644.00a78218 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:09:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. In-Reply-To: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030114135106.00b1b778 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Mu-K.0.vw.SY99-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles Ford writes: >This article applies directly to my project. You should get the book by Bradsher, and tell us if it is good. It seems the author has some authority and even some influence in the field of automotive engineering. Note this sentence from the review: "(Some new SUVs incorporate a bar designed to reduce the odds of riding up and crushing. [The book] "High and Mighty" doesn't mention this, but Detroit engineers call it the Bradsher Bar, owing to Bradsher's relentless New York Times reporting on this particular risk.)" - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 14 15:38:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16823; Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:35:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:35:24 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:52:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"S8BrJ.0.n64.xw99-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Charles. Yup, the article takes a while to make this point. It's easy to blame the auto manufacturers, but frankly I think they're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing in a market economy. That is, they're carefully studying consumers and designing a product which is most appealing to consumers. If the result is the SUV, then it is instructive to ask how it is that when we stare into a mirror, we see this monster staring back. How does the article apply to your project? K. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:58 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Thanks Jed: This article applies directly to my project. Here in North Texas we have the same problem with SUVs and there drivers. In the majority they are aggressive and obnoxious and sadly unaware of others making them vary dangerous. Others are fine but you have to wonder why they are driving those obnoxious things. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > This may be exaggerated, but the author makes some good points: > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030120&s=easterbrook012003 > > - Jed > > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 14 16:52:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27075; Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:50:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:50:58 -0800 Message-ID: <20030115005020.94675.qmail web40402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030114180644.00a78218 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"DOq7X2.0.zc6.o1B9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sure... May take some time as I am working full time and schooling full time. I still have a couple months left on this project though. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Charles Ford writes: > > >This article applies directly to my project. > > You should get the book by Bradsher, and tell us if it is good. It > seems > the author has some authority and even some influence in the field of > automotive engineering. Note this sentence from the review: > > "(Some new SUVs incorporate a bar designed to reduce the odds of riding > up > and crushing. [The book] "High and Mighty" doesn't mention this, but > Detroit engineers call it the Bradsher Bar, owing to Bradsher's > relentless > New York Times reporting on this particular risk.)" > > - Jed > > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 14 18:52:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25419; Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:49:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:49:37 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:49:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030114135106.00b1b778 pop.mindspring.com> <20030114225825.30464.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA25386 Resent-Message-ID: <"qILLT1.0.0D6.1nC9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:58:25 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Thanks Jed: > >This article applies directly to my project. Here in North Texas we have >the same problem with SUVs and there drivers. In the majority they are >aggressive and obnoxious and sadly unaware of others making them vary >dangerous. > >Others are fine but you have to wonder why they are driving those >obnoxious things. I think the question you should be asking is why are the tax breaks set up such as to encourage high gas usage. My answer:- because oil companies make profits from gas sales, irrespective of where it comes from. Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 00:58:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA02785; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:55:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:55:14 -0800 Message-ID: <002301c2bc74$216e4c20$ad92cbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: References: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:57:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"lO8SU.0.Ih.n7I9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry to come in on this one guys! I posted a note re the BEDINI DEVICE recently and got no answers , Whats happened to Vortex -l ? Where is everybody? There appears to have been a large reduction in contributions from many previous people - Have they gone to another listing ??? Comments appreciated. Noel Whitney. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:58 PM Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. > Thanks Jed: > > This article applies directly to my project. Here in North Texas we have > the same problem with SUVs and there drivers. In the majority they are > aggressive and obnoxious and sadly unaware of others making them vary > dangerous. > > Others are fine but you have to wonder why they are driving those > obnoxious things. > > > --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > > This may be exaggerated, but the author makes some good points: > > > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030120&s=easterbrook012003 > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > ===== > Charles Ford > KC5-OWZ > cjford1 yahoo.com > cjford1 swbell.net > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 07:22:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA14752; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:20:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:20:32 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115094033.00a78438 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:20:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hkzHS2.0.Lc3._mN9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >It's easy to blame the auto manufacturers, but frankly >I think they're doing exactly what they're supposed >to be doing in a market economy. That is, they're carefully >studying consumers and designing a product which is most >appealing to consumers. Yes, but . . . We do not have a "pure" market economy, and we never have had one. Manufacturers throughout history have been constrained by many factors unrelated to market forces, such as liability, community standards, laws, national security, public health, pollution control, guild or professional organization rules, and so on. SUVs threaten national security and public health, so new laws must be passed to constrain them. Of course they are constrained already to some extent, but the standards are lower than those set for regular automobiles, so they must be tightened up. A particularly egregious and useless violation of public health standards with SUVs are these steel grills many of them are now equipped with on the front. Those things are insane. In the 1950s, automobiles had complicated chrome decoration, including front bumpers with hemispheric protrusions highly reminiscent of women's breasts, to put as delicately as I can -- perhaps I should say "mammary glands." When these cars collided with pedestrians, the protrusions caused much more harm than a collision with a flat bumpers would at the same speed. So, in the 1960s they were banned by law. Unfortunately, the safety standards do not apply to SUVs, so once again we have millions of cars zipping around the streets with structures protruding from the front that might as well be expressly designed to break bones and cause massive internal injuries in minor accidents with pedestrians. These grills offer absolutely no protection to the people in the cars. The only real-world use for them is in Africa, driving through dense forests and fording rivers, while pushing animals and small trees out of the way to prevent damage to the lights and radiator. I doubt they would be much use in Pennsylvania, for example, which is the only place I have driven vehicles off road. I have never driven an SUV, just ordinary cars and tractors. Only an idiot would drive over a small tree or some other object that might damage the lights. People drive over small trees and brush with a full-size tractor and mower, not a car. It is ironic that the people I know who actually live in the countryside in the U.S. and Japan, and who drive off road to cut wood, gather crops or hunt all use ordinary cars, pickup trucks or tractors. I do not recall seeing an SUV parked in the woods where people go hunting -- poaching, actually. This is getting completely off topic, but the movie "Gettysburg" was filmed entirely in Adams County, PA. If you get a chance to see the DVD version on a wide screen hi-res TV (16:9 aspect), you should. It features some of the prettiest country in the world. If you try driving an SUV or off-road vehicle through that landscape I personally may call the cops, and some other folks I know will gladly shoot out your tires. An experienced Civil War "re-enactor" marched through the area a few years ago, from 3:00 a.m. to noon, and said it was the closest thing to time travel he has experienced, almost exactly the way it was in 1863. We aim to keep it that way. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 07:53:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29910; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:51:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:51:36 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 07:50:25 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001701c2bcad$d1ec8ce0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> <002301c2bc74$216e4c20$ad92cbc1 pc> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA29886 Resent-Message-ID: <"5QdIj3.0.GJ7.8EO9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Noel Whitney" > Sorry to come in on this one guys! > > I posted a note re the BEDINI DEVICE recently and got no answers , > > Whats happened to Vortex -l ? > > Where is everybody? > > There appears to have been a large reduction in contributions from many > previous people - Have they gone to another listing ??? > > Comments appreciated. Noel, There are an number of other forums that have sprung up for particular interests like magnetic devices and self-powered motors, and these tend to be frequented by young, enthusiastic and...well.... gullible experimenters. I hope someone on one of those forums makes a big breakthrough, but "fringe energy" has become too diverse and complicated for many of us to closely follow every wild idea, especially from someone who has, many times, made claims but failed to deliver - for over a decade. I think most of those who have stayed on this forum have long since given up real hope for ever finding significant OU with "just" magnets and wires (that could change with RTSC - room temperature superconductivity) . Many here are far more open-minded than most, but nevertheless see some variation of LENR or CANR involving hydrogen in some way, or water electrolysis, as the most promising avenue for success ( I personally believe there may be some modest amount of OU potential in magnets and wires but *experience is the best teacher* and literally thousands of very clever people have been tinkering with magnets, batteries and wires for over a century with not a single bona fide fully reproducible OU device). Speaking for myself, I don't think we would have ever heard from Bedini, Bearden and their ilk if they had just learned to use a dedicated power analyzer. Apparently for some shameless self-promoters, it is cheaper to buy a mail-order PhD certificate than a good power analyzer. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 08:21:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11799; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:19:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:19:20 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115111507.00adce50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:19:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: WebElements improved? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ki6QD2.0.Gu2.7eO9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yesterday I looked up potassium at: http://www.webelements.com I just looked again, and I think the site has been reorganized and improved lately, or I managed to wander into a section I have not seen. It seems to have the same information in two formats or sections. See: http://www.webelements.com/webelements/scholar/elements/potassium/nuclear.html http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/K/isot.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 08:54:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26244; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:51:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:51:57 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Freeware Physical Constants and ? Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:51:44 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115111507.00adce50 pop.mindspring.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ctl421.0.-P6.j6P9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have a copy of the PTOE (periodic table) shareware, and am hoping to locate something like a table of constants/calculator freeware for use. My old Kaye and Laby (1991) is showing its age, and it is out of print these days so there is nothing comparable to replace it with. I was considering that if there is nothing on the market, I might conjure this up myself, but I thought it would be best to ask around if anyone has seen anything they might recommend in this regard. Webelements is cool, if only it didn't need continuous internet... regards > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2003 January 15 23:19 > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: WebElements improved? > > > Yesterday I looked up potassium at: > > http://www.webelements.com > > I just looked again, and I think the site has been reorganized > and improved > lately, or I managed to wander into a section I have not seen. It > seems to > have the same information in two formats or sections. See: > > http://www.webelements.com/webelements/scholar/elements/potassium/ > nuclear.html > > http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/K/isot.html > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 09:34:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12809; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:31:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20030115173027.35874.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:30:27 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"1UIKr2.0.-73.ShP9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > I think the question you should be asking is why are the tax breaks set > up such as to encourage high gas usage. My answer:- because oil > companies make profits from gas sales, irrespective of where it comes > from. Not realy... The author answers that question quite accuratly. Sad but true. Those who cannot do, teach Those who cannot teach, administrate. Those who cannot administrate, run for public office. Then we elect them. The end effect is that we have a government of representitaves that are unable to express themselves with understandable english, balance a checkbook, hold a converstaion to topic, maintian a stable relationship, or follow the very laws that they have voted into existance. ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 11:37:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20307; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:34:36 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115142036.00ad55b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:34:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Rumor about Bearden In-Reply-To: <001701c2bcad$d1ec8ce0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <20030114225825.30464.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com> <002301c2bc74$216e4c20$ad92cbc1 pc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"dkzof2.0.Cz4.CVR9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Speaking for myself, I don't think we would have ever heard from Bedini, >Bearden and their ilk if they had just learned to use a dedicated power >analyzer. That is my impression. Top-of-the-line analyzers are difficult to fool, according to Mizuno and the people he consults with in the Electrical Engineering Dept. and the equipment vendors. Essentially, no one knows how you can fool one, and if you find a way they will be anxious to hear from you. This is something the skeptics often overlook. As I have said to them, Advantest or Hitachi will pay you a small fortune if you can demonstrate a way to fool a meter to the extent skeptics claim CF experiments are in error. > Apparently for some shameless self-promoters, it is cheaper to buy a > mail-order PhD certificate than a good power analyzer. I have heard the rumor that Bearden has a fake PhD. It sounds unlikely. Is there any truth to this, or proof? For example, is there a document published by him claiming he has a degree from such-and-such university, and another document showing that university does not exist? If there is no proof we should refrain from repeating this. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 11:39:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21264; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:37:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:37:16 -0800 Message-ID: <20030115193638.41032.qmail web40414.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:36:38 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <002301c2bc74$216e4c20$ad92cbc1 pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"7c6Ka1.0.9C5.iXR9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think we can all agree that there is a problem here. The article was slightly exagerated but only slightly. IF the author had maybe taken another calming breath and edited one last time maybe it would not have been. The problem is the proliferation of the SUV. Lets face it folks, the SUVs persistance in the marketplace is a clear and present danger. ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 12:19:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13494; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:18:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:18:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030115173027.35874.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030115173027.35874.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:17:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"x4L-K.0.mI3.B8S9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc.
-Charles Ford Posted;

Not realy...  The author answers that question quite accuratly. 

Sad but true. 

Those who cannot do, teach            
Those who cannot teach, administrate.
Those who cannot administrate, run for public office.

Then we elect them. 

The end effect is that we have a government of representitaves that are
unable to express themselves with understandable english, balance a
checkbook, hold a converstaion to topic, maintian a stable relationship,
or follow the very laws that they have voted into existance.



 Your observation motivated me to forward this article that I got from NewsMax.

Are you tired ot the blame-America-first crowd, globalists, feminazis, P.C. educrats and other forces trying to sink the republic? Radio powerhouse Michael Savage's new book, hits back at them all and takes no prisoners.

"The future of America hangs in the balance like a loose tooth. Everything you and I have worked for is being wiped out before our eyes. Our borders, our language and our culture are under siege," he writes.
Only Savage dares to tackle everything from the media's anti-Christian bias to illegal aliens to phony =93hate crimes=94 laws to the Democrats=92 "Contract Against America."
The left-wing thought police are sure to faint just from glancing at Savage's chapter headings:
  • Diversity is Perversity
     
  • America: From the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, to the Land of the Freak and the Home of the Slave.
     
  • Immigrants and Epidemics: TB, Anyone?
     
  • Crimes of the Democrats
     
  • "She-Ocracy": The Radicals United for Ladies Evil
     
  • Sluts vs. Virgins
     
  • Do Blacks Owe Jews Reparations?
Infuriate the left: Get Michael Savage's =93

"The Savage Nation" also offers the most scathing critique of the Democrats' agenda. Savage calls it a "Contract Against America," which includes:
  • Hate-crime laws aimed at straight white males.
     
  • A United Nations tax or a world tax.
     
  • Delegitimizing the Boy Scouts.
     
  • Arresting, banning or rewriting the authentic Bible as a hate book.
     
  • Mandatory application of Ritalin to any child with spunk.
     
  • Complete elimination of borders with Mexico
     
              Mandatory suicide for sick seniors.

I'm a big fan of Michael Savage, I can only take just so much of him, but he says things that need to be said. Do him a favor and call your local book store to see if his book, The Savage Nation is in stock.
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 12:44:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24470; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:41:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:41:53 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Rumor about Bearden Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:59:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115142036.00ad55b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"B4kuE.0.C-5.HUS9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. For starters, you could look at Tom's website. http://www.cheniere.org/misc/bearden%20cv%20long.htm Course work completed for doctorate; thesis being submitted. MS Nuclear Engineering, Georgia Institute of Technology. BS Mathematics, Northeast Louisiana University with minor in Electronic Engineering. So at least on the website, he's pretty clear about things. This doesn't prevent others from claiming differently. http://www.gaiaguys.net/BeardenCV.htm nor does it prevent him from doing so, on occasion. http://www.help4all.de/energy/MEGpaper.pdf so you can see where the confusion comes from. I agree with Jones that there is little discussion of Bearden and Bedini here simply because there is so much elsewhere, and little new can be said about the subject. I had lunch with the man years back, at a conference. It was a lot of fun, and he's a personable guy. It's important to realize that he's a promoter, people often think otherwise which can be problematic... K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:34 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Rumor about Bearden Jones Beene wrote: >Speaking for myself, I don't think we would have ever heard from Bedini, >Bearden and their ilk if they had just learned to use a dedicated power >analyzer. That is my impression. Top-of-the-line analyzers are difficult to fool, according to Mizuno and the people he consults with in the Electrical Engineering Dept. and the equipment vendors. Essentially, no one knows how you can fool one, and if you find a way they will be anxious to hear from you. This is something the skeptics often overlook. As I have said to them, Advantest or Hitachi will pay you a small fortune if you can demonstrate a way to fool a meter to the extent skeptics claim CF experiments are in error. > Apparently for some shameless self-promoters, it is cheaper to buy a > mail-order PhD certificate than a good power analyzer. I have heard the rumor that Bearden has a fake PhD. It sounds unlikely. Is there any truth to this, or proof? For example, is there a document published by him claiming he has a degree from such-and-such university, and another document showing that university does not exist? If there is no proof we should refrain from repeating this. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 12:51:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28024; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:49:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:49:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:42:31 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Rumor about Bearden To: vortex Message-id: <006901c2bcd6$ff8ab9a0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2BC93.921A3280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"PtFgw3.0.lr6.AbS9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2BC93.921A3280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" > I have heard the rumor that Bearden has a fake PhD. It sounds = unlikely. Is=20 > there any truth to this, or proof? For example, is there a document=20 > published by him claiming he has a degree from such-and-such = university,=20 > and another document showing that university does not exist? If there = is no=20 > proof we should refrain from repeating this. >=20 > - Jed I hope you didn't think I was referring to Bearden, but just in case, = please read the following from Eric Kreig's forum: I have heard that Bearden's undergraduate and MS degree are legit. The = following is some pretty damning information someone sent me [Kreig] = concerning Bearden's PhD: =20 Based on his own e-mail and the time frame (around 1999 to 2000) when he began claiming a Ph.D., Tom Bearden apparently received (or more accurately purchased) his bogus Ph.D. degree from Trinity College and University in the U.K. Until April 2000, you could find this diploma mill at http://www.trinityuni.org, after which it vanished from the web. Fortunately, the Wayback Machine web archive (http://www.archive.org) still contains the old web pages from Trinity College and University. Looking at the home page on the Sept. 1, 1999 archive you can plainly see the statement "Degrees awarded based on prior experience and learning" for www.trinityuni.org. Clicking on the "Contact Us" button brings you to a page pointing to phone numbers and addresses in the U.K. After April 10, 2000, Trinity College and University apparently "vanished" from the U.K. However, for more than a year afterwards the old web site redirected visitors to www.internetuniversity.cc, a site that sells pre-packaged e-learning courses under the name of Degree Consultants, Inc. Now it gets interesting. Who is the registrant for internetuniversity.cc? It turns out to be: Albert Wainright 2601 S. Minnesota Ave Suite 105-103 Sioux Falls, SD 57105 US 605-330-8622 Email: albert predacon.com And just where is Mr. Wainright's address in Sioux Fall, SD? It turns out to be Mail Boxes, Etc., Store #2125 (www.mbe.com). Apparently Mr. Wainright has decided to concentrate his current efforts in the U.S., because in 1999 a "new" version of Trinity College and University appeared at www.trinity-college.edu. Again, this new "university" promises "college credit for what you know." And who is the registrant for www.trinity-college.edu? Registrant: Trinity College & University 2601 S. Minnesota Ave. Suite 105-103 Sioux Falls, SD 57105 UNITED STATES (That's one busy Mail Boxes, Etc., isn't it?) Administrative Contact: Albert Wainright Private PO Box 7743 Delray Beach, FL 33482 UNITED STATES (561) 736-2963 albert predacon.com Note that the "new" Trinity College and University has branches (i.e. P.O. boxes) in Pakistan, Venezuela, the Netherlands, Vietnam, Jordan, and Lebanon. Apparently they do a booming business selling fake degrees to people throughout the world. According to sources I've read, the U.K. address was just another P.O. box placed in Great Britain in order to take advantage of possible confusion between their diploma mill and Cambridge University's Trinity College. Below are a few other web sites that discuss famous diploma mills, and cite Trinity College and University as a classic example. www.degree.net (An authoritative web site on distance education. You can find all sorts of gems about Trinity College and University here.) www.degreefinders.com/news.html (There's a link to a Trinity "graduate" who posted his 4,224 word doctoral dissertation on the web.=20 Unfortunately, the dissertation now seems to be gone.) http://www.adn.com/24hour/nation/story/600189p-4642228c.html http://courses.dsu.edu/cet749/unit3.htm (This story tells how South Dakota became a haven for diploma mills, and how Trinity College and University created its own accreditation agency to make itself look more legitimate.) http://www.thisismoney.com/20011125/si40887.html (This article discusses the original Trinity College and University in the U.K. before it was shut down.) Finally, it's important to note that many legitimate universities have the word "Trinity" in their names. Legitimate Ph.D. degrees granted by such institutions require actual graduate course credits, at least one year of residency at the university itself, and an oral defense of a dissertation in front of a qualified faculty examination committee. On the other hand, there isn't a legitimate university in the U.S. or the U.K. that will give a person a doctorate based on "lifetime achievement" and the submission of a dissertation by mail, particularly when that person doesn't even live in the same country! END OK. Granted this is not proof positive about anyone's shortcoming, shall = we say, so you can make your own judgment ;-) BTW. Keep in mind that, although it may not appear in writing, the = numerous government contracts that a certain group was trying to land: = from DARPA, NASA etc (did they actually get any fed. funding ??) = effectively requires that the lead investigators have doctorates. ..regardless of "lifetime achievement" or was that "lifetime notoriety". Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2BC93.921A3280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com= >

>=20 I have heard the rumor that Bearden has a fake PhD. It sounds unlikely. = Is=20
> there any truth to this, or proof? For example, is there a = document=20
> published by him claiming he has a degree from such-and-such=20 university,
> and another document showing that university does = not=20 exist? If there is no
> proof we should refrain from repeating=20 this.
>
> - Jed

I hope you didn't think I was = referring to=20 Bearden, but just in case, please read the following from Eric = Kreig's=20 forum:

I have heard that Bearden's undergraduate and MS degree = are legit.=20 The following is some pretty damning information someone sent me [Kreig] = concerning Bearden's PhD:
 
Based on his own e-mail and the = time=20 frame (around 1999 to 2000) when
he began claiming a Ph.D., Tom = Bearden=20 apparently received (or more
accurately purchased) his bogus Ph.D. = degree=20 from Trinity College and
University in the U.K.  Until April = 2000, you=20 could find this diploma
mill at http://www.trinityuni.org, after = which it=20 vanished from the
web. Fortunately, the Wayback Machine web = archive
(http://www.archive.org) still = contains the=20 old web pages from Trinity
College and University.

Looking at = the home=20 page on the Sept. 1, 1999 archive you can plainly
see the statement = "Degrees=20 awarded based on prior experience and
learning" for www.trinityuni.org. Clicking on = the=20 "Contact Us" button
brings you to a page pointing to phone numbers = and=20 addresses in the U.K.

After April 10, 2000, Trinity College and=20 University apparently
"vanished" from the U.K. However, for more than = a year=20 afterwards the
old web site redirected visitors to www.internetuniversity.cc,= a=20 site
that sells pre-packaged e-learning courses under the name of=20 Degree
Consultants, Inc.

Now it gets interesting. Who is the=20 registrant for
internetuniversity.cc? It turns out to = be:

Albert=20 Wainright
2601 S. Minnesota Ave
Suite 105-103
Sioux Falls, SD=20 57105
US
605-330-8622
Email: albert@predacon.com

And = just where=20 is Mr. Wainright's address in Sioux Fall, SD? It turns
out to be Mail = Boxes,=20 Etc., Store #2125 (www.mbe.com).

Apparently Mr. = Wainright has=20 decided to concentrate his current efforts
in the U.S., because in = 1999 a=20 "new" version of Trinity College and
University appeared at www.trinity-college.edu. = Again, this=20 new
"university" promises "college credit for what you know." And who = is
the registrant for www.trinity-college.edu?
=
Registrant:
  =20 Trinity College & University
   2601 S. Minnesota Ave. = Suite=20 105-103
   Sioux Falls, SD 57105
   UNITED=20 STATES

(That's one busy Mail Boxes, Etc., isn't = it?)

  =20 Administrative Contact:
   Albert Wainright
   = Private
   PO Box 7743
   Delray Beach, FL=20 33482
   UNITED STATES
   (561)=20 736-2963
   albert@predacon.com

Note = that the=20 "new" Trinity College and University has branches (i.e.
P.O. boxes) = in=20 Pakistan, Venezuela, the Netherlands, Vietnam, Jordan,
and Lebanon.=20 Apparently they do a booming business selling fake
degrees to people=20 throughout the world. According to sources I've
read, the U.K. = address was=20 just another P.O. box placed in Great
Britain in order to take = advantage of=20 possible confusion between their
diploma mill and Cambridge = University's=20 Trinity College.

Below are a few other web sites that discuss = famous=20 diploma mills, and
cite Trinity College and University as a classic=20 example.

www.degree.net = (An=20 authoritative web site on distance education. You
can find all sorts = of gems=20 about Trinity College and University here.)

www.degreefinders.com/new= s.html=20 (There's a link to a Trinity
"graduate" who posted his 4,224 word = doctoral=20 dissertation on the web.
Unfortunately, the dissertation now seems = to be=20 gone.)

htt= p://www.adn.com/24hour/nation/story/600189p-4642228c.html

http://courses.dsu.edu/c= et749/unit3.htm=20 (This story tells how South
Dakota became a haven for diploma mills, = and how=20 Trinity College and
University created its own accreditation agency = to make=20 itself look
more legitimate.)

http://www.this= ismoney.com/20011125/si40887.html=20 (This article
discusses the original Trinity College and University = in the=20 U.K.
before it was shut down.)

Finally, it's important to note = that=20 many legitimate universities have
the word "Trinity" in their names.=20 Legitimate Ph.D. degrees granted by
such institutions require actual = graduate=20 course credits, at least one
year of residency at the university = itself, and=20 an oral defense of a
dissertation in front of a qualified faculty = examination=20 committee.

On the other hand, there isn't a legitimate university = in the=20 U.S. or
the U.K. that will give a person a doctorate based on=20 "lifetime
achievement" and the submission of a dissertation by mail,=20 particularly
when that person doesn't even live in the same = country! =20 END

OK. Granted this is not proof positive about anyone's = shortcoming,=20 shall we say, so you can make your own judgment  ;-)

BTW. = Keep in=20 mind that, although it may not appear in writing, the numerous = government=20 contracts that a certain group was trying to land: from DARPA, NASA etc = (did=20 they actually get any fed. funding ??) effectively requires that the = lead=20 investigators have doctorates.
 
..regardless of "lifetime achievement" or was that "lifetime=20 notoriety".

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2BC93.921A3280-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 13:25:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14384; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:23:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:23:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115160413.00adce50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:22:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Rumor about Bearden In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115142036.00ad55b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"D8g2d3.0.QW3.A5T9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel cites: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/bearden%20cv%20long.htm [QUOTING BEARDEN'S WEBSITE:] >"Course work completed for doctorate; thesis being >submitted. MS Nuclear Engineering, Georgia Institute >of Technology. BS Mathematics, Northeast Louisiana >University with minor in Electronic Engineering." So, here he says he does not yet have a PhD, and he does not mention where he submitted the thesis. That's a little odd. But elsewhere: >http://www.help4all.de/energy/MEGpaper.pdf . . . He says he does have a PhD. Perhaps this was published later, after he was awarded a degree. Nowhere on his own site does he mention "Trinity College." Perhaps he mentioned it somewhere else, in "his own e-mail" as Eric Krieg claims. Frankly, I trust Krieg about as far as I could throw him -- and I would throw him as hard as I can given half a chance. He circulates malicious half-truths, confusion, and unfounded rumors. Unless someone has a statement directly from Bearden saying "Trinity College" I would ignore this. Perhaps we could ask Bearden . . . But it makes little difference. Anyway, you have to be careful about repeating nasty rumors. Also, why bother? You don't need ad hominem rumors to attack these people. The papers that people like Bearden, the Correas and other lunatic-fringe scientists publish are as damning as the most malicious rumor Kreig ever cooked up. If they had PhD degrees from Cal Tech and Harvard combined it would not improve the quality of their work one iota, or substitute for a good power analyzer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 13:33:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19855; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:31:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Freeware Physical Constants and ? Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:31:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7ekb2v4hsvcud4ng41p1gjfdogtv4lng2q 4ax.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115111507.00adce50 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA19799 Resent-Message-ID: <"RgYf6.0.0s4.5DT9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to xplorer's message of Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:51:44 +0700: Hi, [snip] > >I have a copy of the PTOE (periodic table) > shareware, and am hoping to locate something > like a table of constants/calculator > freeware for use. I use Mathcad, which converts constants automatically. That means that data can be entered with any commonly used system of units (also mixed), and the result can also be expressed in any units that are dimensionally correct. e.g. mi/hr or km/sec. One doesn't need to take conversion factors into account at all. It's all done behind the scenes. It is also possible to define one's own units in terms of existing units. Not to mention all the other goodies that are included, half of which I haven't even bothered to explore. Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 13:42:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23413; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:39:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:39:13 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:37:57 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Freeware Physical Constants and ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002701c2bcde$5ef6f640$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115111507.00adce50 pop.mindspring.com> <7ekb2v4hsvcud4ng41p1gjfdogtv4lng2q 4ax.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA23367 Resent-Message-ID: <"dOjj13.0.lj5.0KT9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > In reply to xplorer's message of Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:51:44 +0700: > I am hoping to locate something like a table of constants/calculator > freeware for use. For a decent freeware converter for Windoze: http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 14:11:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07912; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:09:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:09:57 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:09:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0dmb2v4o94dogdhft9dfsq3c7rmf4f9hpa 4ax.com> References: <20030115173027.35874.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030115173027.35874.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA07803 Resent-Message-ID: <"6VpJ_1.0.Ox1.qmT9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:30:27 -0800: Hi, [snip] > >--- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> I think the question you should be asking is why are the tax breaks set >> up such as to encourage high gas usage. My answer:- because oil >> companies make profits from gas sales, irrespective of where it comes >> from. > >Not realy... The author answers that question quite accuratly. So what answer did you extract from the article that was contrary to my opinion? In support of my claim, I offer the following quotes:- "SUV and light pickup engines that could meet anti-pollution rules would be wholly practical. It is just that they are not required, so Detroit does not build them; and Congress, which is in Detroit's pocket, keeps putting off the day when the requirement will kick in." "So Detroit deliberately made SUVs heavier and more wasteful. The rules, you see, had been set up to reward waste." "Large cars now do well on fuel efficiency because the MPG rules for regular cars are actually enforced, compelling Detroit to comply. But Congress has repeatedly granted special waivers for SUVs: in 1990, in a showdown during which a Senate filibuster was used to block progress, and again in 2002, when a bill to improve SUV and pickup mileage drew only 38 votes in the Senate. (Even many Democrats voted nay.) Just before Christmas, President George W. Bush announced that SUV and light pickup fuel-efficiency standards would rise about 10 percent, to an official fleet average of 22.2 MPG, by the model year 2007. Ten percent improvement is preferable to inaction, but it is far less than the SUV fuel efficiency gains that the National Research Council recently told the White House would be practical using current technology. Also, the administration's decision leaves the "dual fuel" gimmick in place, meaning that many SUVs and pickups will simply evade the new standard." > >Sad but true. > >Those who cannot do, teach >Those who cannot teach, administrate. >Those who cannot administrate, run for public office. > >Then we elect them. > >The end effect is that we have a government of representitaves that are >unable to express themselves with understandable english, balance a >checkbook, hold a converstaion to topic, maintian a stable relationship, >or follow the very laws that they have voted into existance. > > >===== >Charles Ford >KC5-OWZ >cjford1 yahoo.com >cjford1 swbell.net > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com Regards, R. van Spaandonk It isn't terrorism we need to fear, it's apathy and stupidity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 14:19:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11555; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:18:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:18:15 -0800 Message-ID: <20030115221741.94771.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:17:41 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"aZS6a1.0.Nq2.duT9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Point well made... I will have to look a bit closer at Savage. For now (back to the topic - sort of) The SUV and other guzelers have become a problem. I believe that the solution is not to make more laws but rather offer americans a option that is more attractave then the SUV. In the process of defining the problem I have descovered some things that have been overlooked. * Air conditioning is no longer an option. In some parts of the world it is a need. * Style is the most powerfull marketing tool. Reduced comes in cost fails to attract money. Taking a look at the products that are avaliable here is what I see as the problem. They have no style... I mean the things look like the uglyest of the fischer price toys. They have no air conditioning. Here in North Texas that simply won't do. They are not priced competitavely. We can do the math and it just doesn't add up. e.g why is it that electric motors and the bateries cost less to make then a gasolene power plant, All of the features are removed and it still costs as much as $10,000.00 more then a simular sized gas car. The solution I believe is to take the electric car off the Detroit agenda and offer a wide range of models and features. --- thomas malloy wrote: -Charles Ford Posted; Not realy... The author answers that question quite accuratly. Sad but true. Those who cannot do, teach Those who cannot teach, administrate. Those who cannot administrate, run for public office. Then we elect them. The end effect is that we have a government of representitaves that are unable to express themselves with understandable english, balance a checkbook, hold a converstaion to topic, maintian a stable relationship, or follow the very laws that they have voted into existance. Your observation motivated me to forward this article that I got from NewsMax. Are you tired ot the blame-America-first crowd, globalists, feminazis, P.C. educrats and other forces trying to sink the republic? Radio powerhouse Michael Savage's new book, hits back at them all and takes no prisoners. "The future of America hangs in the balance like a loose tooth. Everything you and I have worked for is being wiped out before our eyes. Our borders, our language and our culture are under siege," he writes. Only Savage dares to tackle everything from the media's anti-Christian bias to illegal aliens to phony hate crimes laws to the Democrats "Contract Against America." The left-wing thought police are sure to faint just from glancing at Savage's chapter headings: Diversity is Perversity America: From the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, to the Land of the Freak and the Home of the Slave. Immigrants and Epidemics: TB, Anyone? Crimes of the Democrats "She-Ocracy": The Radicals United for Ladies Evil Sluts vs. Virgins Do Blacks Owe Jews Reparations? Infuriate the left: Get Michael Savage's "The Savage Nation" also offers the most scathing critique of the Democrats' agenda. Savage calls it a "Contract Against America," which includes: Hate-crime laws aimed at straight white males. A United Nations tax or a world tax. Delegitimizing the Boy Scouts. Arresting, banning or rewriting the authentic Bible as a hate book. Mandatory application of Ritalin to any child with spunk. Complete elimination of borders with Mexico Mandatory suicide for sick seniors. I'm a big fan of Michael Savage, I can only take just so much of him, but he says things that need to be said. Do him a favor and call your local book store to see if his book, The Savage Nation is in stock. ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 14:22:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12924; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:21:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:21:24 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115165815.00ad7558 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:21:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Freeware Physical Constants / other utilities mini-review In-Reply-To: <002701c2bcde$5ef6f640$0a016ea8 cpq> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115111507.00adce50 pop.mindspring.com> <7ekb2v4hsvcud4ng41p1gjfdogtv4lng2q 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PtNVr3.0.r93.ZxT9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >For a decent freeware converter for Windoze: >http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/ I think you mean: http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/esbunitconv.html That looks nice! I have been using the on-line utility here: http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm . . . but it might be more convenient to work off line in the computer. It is amazing how much sophisticated freeware is out there. I do not mind paying for software, but I sometimes hesitate because I have a feeling that a much better version is floating around at zero cost. Here is one of the best utilities for viewing and modifying graphics files, especially large numbers of files in a batch: http://www.irfanview.com/ It is free, and much better than ones costing $100. This is getting off topic, I have never found a really satisfactory backup program -- not for money or free. I have purchased five or six, and downloaded a few others for free 15-day tests. The best two I know of are: http://www.leanware.com/intro.html Good for daily backups of data from one disk to another. http://www.acronis.com/products/trueimage/ Seems to work. Nice utility to make a boot-up restore CD-ROM. A good "Try For Free" offer. More flexible than most other imaging programs: does not require a dedicated disk for the image, works with external disk connected with old or new USB. This seems pretty good, but I have never had a real emergency, so I have not tried to restore an image. I cannot say whether it really works. Two other big name expensive programs *failed* to work when disks crashed. I ended up restoring all programs from scratch. Finally, let me say that my customers & I have tried just about every form of external removable media ever invented, from 800 bpi mag tapes to tape cartridge drives, CD-ROMs and Zip drives and Lord knows what else. Everything I have seen is orders of magnitude less reliable than hard disks, and much too small and slow. When the chips are down and the disk is roached, removable media NEVER works. I say: If you can remove it you might as toss it out. The only thing that works reliably, and the only thing that will always be big enough for the latest generation hard disk is *another* latest generation hard disk connected with a USB or Firewire. That is the only kind of backup I recommend. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 14:45:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20878; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:41:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:41:47 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115172228.00a78438 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:41:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. In-Reply-To: <0dmb2v4o94dogdhft9dfsq3c7rmf4f9hpa 4ax.com> References: <20030115173027.35874.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> <20030115173027.35874.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2GGtn2.0.865.hEU9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In support of my claim, I offer the following quotes:- > >"SUV and light pickup engines that could meet anti-pollution rules would >be wholly practical. It is just that they are not required, so Detroit >does not build them; and Congress, which is in Detroit's pocket, keeps >putting off the day when the requirement will kick in." > >"So Detroit deliberately made SUVs heavier and more wasteful. The rules, >you see, had been set up to reward waste." . . . These are important points. It seems to me, they point to a conclusion the magazine author (not Robin) failed to see: Many of the problems with SUVs could be fixed at a modest cost with engineering innovations. We have reason to be optimistic. The safety and health problems can be addressed, and in fact are being addressed. I think GM is bringing out a hybrid motor SUV, for example. We cannot fix the driver's attitude problems or the fact that SUVs take up so much space. SUVs will never be as safe as ordinary cars for their passengers or for people in other cars. But the gap can be narrowed, and it is being narrowed. We need legislation to correct these absurd rules that reward waste and accidents, and we need new rules to force industry to make some of the needed innovations. Not all of the innovations -- only the ones that add to the purchase price of the vehicle. It must be done uniformly, by all makers. Even an inexpensive improvement, such as more efficient engine, may add to the purchase price of the car (not the overall cost of ownership). If the improvement is voluntary, many auto makers will not do it, and they will have a slightly lower sticker price. Foolish customers will buy the cheaper SUVs instead the good ones. This principle -- an apparent exception to free market rules -- has been recognized by economists since the 19th century, and guilds have understood it for thousands of years, although many free market purists still fail to grasp it. I think many daunting technical problems are not as daunting as they appear, or as they are sometimes portrayed in the press. The fossil fuel lobby says we cannot afford alternative energy, and we cannot afford to fix the energy crisis or conserve, but I think they are wrong. Of course it would cost a great deal, but doing nothing may cost infinitely more. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 15:33:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12749; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:29:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:29:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:26:07 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Alpha and circle-to-sphere transformation To: vortex Message-id: <001e01c2bced$bbcadb20$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2BCAA.6C8AE7A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"yeTMe2.0.673.9xU9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2BCAA.6C8AE7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the most interesting numbers in all of physics is appropriately = called alpha. Alpha, the fine-structure constant is a dimensionless number (i.e., it = is simply a number) which can serve, among other things, as a coupling = constant between electrons and photons. This constant determines how the = energy of electrons is transformed into the energy of photons. It is = very nearly equal to 1/137.=20 It turns up (apparently) in many places without much explanation, as = this electron rest mass chart and others on Robin van Spaandonk's New = Hydrogen web page: http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html I wonder how 1/137 relates to the Lissajous graphing function in this = case. It is probably way too simple to say the electron makes 137 = revolutions (2.6277 degrees of offset) before returning to phase in the = ground state, but I would love to see an animated "ray-tracing" model of = this, similar to the animated graphs that can be plugged into Mindwork's = GIF Construction Set. There is a very basic Lissajous animation at: http://www.mathsnet.net/graphanim.html which uses the simple parametric equation x=3Dsin(ct), y=3Dcos(t) for c = varying between 1 and 2. Does anyone have URL references to more complicated circle-to-sphere = transformation sets? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2BCAA.6C8AE7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One of the most interesting numbers in all of physics is = appropriately called=20 alpha.

Alpha, the fine-structure constant is a dimensionless number (i.e., = it is=20 simply a number) which can serve, among other things, as a coupling = constant between electrons and photons. This constant determines how the = energy=20 of electrons is transformed into the energy of photons. It is very = nearly equal=20 to 1/137.

It turns up (apparently) in many places without much explanation, as = this=20 electron rest mass chart and others on Robin van Spaandonk's New = Hydrogen web=20 page:

http:= //www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

I wonder how 1/137 relates to the Lissajous graphing function in this = case.=20 It is probably way too simple to say the electron makes 137 revolutions = (2.6277=20 degrees of offset) before returning to phase in the ground state, = but I=20 would love to see an animated "ray-tracing" model of = this, similar=20 to the animated graphs that can be plugged into Mindwork's GIF = Construction=20 Set.

There is a very basic Lissajous animation at:
http://www.mathsnet.net/g= raphanim.html
which=20 uses the simple parametric equation x=3Dsin(ct), y=3Dcos(t) for c = varying between 1=20 and 2.

Does anyone have URL references to more=20 complicated circle-to-sphere transformation sets?


Jones

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2BCAA.6C8AE7A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 15:43:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18423; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:41:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:41:20 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030115234116.00695254 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:41:16 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Freeware Physical Constants / other utilities mini-review Resent-Message-ID: <"kXKt42.0.hV4.V6V9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:21 pm 15-01-03 -0500, you wrote: >Jones Beene wrote: > >>For a decent freeware converter for Windoze: >>http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/ > >I think you mean: > >http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/esbunitconv.html > >That looks nice! I have been using the on-line utility here: > >http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm Thanks for that processassociates URL Jed. I prefer to keep programs off my hard drive where possible; especially since the esbconsult converter didn't seem to have any uninstall file for my operating system (Windows 95). Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 16:13:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00905; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:11:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:11:32 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <30.35ecb407.2b57528f aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:10:55 EST Subject: Re: Alpha and circle-to-sphere transformation To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"FJLOn1.0.uD.pYV9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: c/137 = one megahertz meter My constant. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 16:55:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24761; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:52:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:52:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:50:57 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Alpha and circle-to-sphere transformation To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001901c2bcf9$5557ef20$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <30.35ecb407.2b57528f aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA24638 Resent-Message-ID: <"6y1OS3.0.j26.F9W9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: > c/137 = one megahertz meter > > My constant. > > Frank Znidarsic How so, Frank - it looks more like 2.2 than 1 ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 15 21:23:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13368; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:21:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:21:48 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:14:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Alpha and circle-to-sphere transformation From: Clifford Gross To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001e01c2bced$bbcadb20$0a016ea8 cpq> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3125517283_64001_MIME_Part" Resent-Message-ID: <"u9MIK3.0.nG3.h5a9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3125517283_64001_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/15/03 5:26 PM, Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: One of the most interesting numbers in all of physics is appropriately called alpha. Alpha, the fine-structure constant is a dimensionless number (i.e., it is simply a number) which can serve, among other things, as a coupling constant between electrons and photons. This constant determines how the energy of electrons is transformed into the energy of photons. It is very nearly equal to 1/137. It turns up (apparently) in many places without much explanation, as this electron rest mass chart and others on Robin van Spaandonk's New Hydrogen web page: http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html I wonder how 1/137 relates to the Lissajous graphing function in this case. It is probably way too simple to say the electron makes 137 revolutions (2.6277 degrees of offset) before returning to phase in the ground state, but I would love to see an animated "ray-tracing" model of this, similar to the animated graphs that can be plugged into Mindwork's GIF Construction Set. There is a very basic Lissajous animation at: http://www.mathsnet.net/graphanim.html which uses the simple parametric equation x=sin(ct), y=cos(t) for c varying between 1 and 2. Does anyone have URL references to more complicated circle-to-sphere transformation sets? Jones http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/ Try these. --MS_Mac_OE_3125517283_64001_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Alpha and circle-to-sphere transformation on 1/15/03 5:26 PM, Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote:

One of the most interesting numbers in all of physics is approp= riately called alpha.

Alpha, the fine-structure constant is a dimensionless number (i.e., it is s= imply a number) which can serve, among other things, as a coupling constant = between electrons and photons. This constant determines how the energy of el= ectrons is transformed into the energy of photons. It is very nearly equal t= o 1/137.

It turns up (apparently) in many places without much explanation, as this e= lectron rest mass chart and others on Robin van Spaandonk's New Hydrogen web= page:

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

I wonder how 1/137 relates to the Lissajous graphing function in this case.= It is probably way too simple to say the electron makes 137 revolutions (2.= 6277 degrees of offset) before returning to phase in the ground state, but I= would love to see an animated "ray-tracing" model of this, simila= r to the animated graphs that can be plugged into Mindwork's GIF Constructio= n Set.

There is a very basic Lissajous animation at:
http://www.mathsnet.net/graphanim.html
which uses the simple parametric equation x=3Dsin(ct), y=3Dcos(t) for c varying= between 1 and 2.

Does anyone have URL references to more complicated circle-to-sphere transf= ormation sets?


Jones

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synergeo/

Try these.
--MS_Mac_OE_3125517283_64001_MIME_Part-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 06:19:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19696; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:15:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:15:23 -0800 Message-ID: <20030116141444.63264.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:14:44 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <0dmb2v4o94dogdhft9dfsq3c7rmf4f9hpa 4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"DQJ2J3.0.ep4.xvh9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Charles Ford's message of Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:30:27 -0800: > Hi, > [snip] > The cause of the feasco At about the same time, the old American Motors company was making a push to market its Jeep brand as a vehicle for everyone, not just for backwoodsmen. The company was in financial trouble. Bradsher reports that its lobbyists told officials of Richard Nixon's newly created Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) that if the company went under, they would blame the anti-pollution rules of the newly passed Clean Air Act. So the EPA wrote a waiver that essentially exempted Jeeps from anti-smog regulation, on the grounds that they were not cars but "light trucks." That trucks should get a pass on clean-air rules was itself something of an absurdity. Ostensibly the provision was to protect business, but since the deadweight cost of pollution control is the same from the standpoint of the economy regardless of whether the price is imposed on individuals or on businesses, the distinction never made much sense. In any event, Jeeps were issued a free pass. The Tax structure An asterisk in the rules specified that they did not apply to vehicles in excess of 6,000 pounds gross weight (vehicle weight plus maximum load). This asterisk was intended to keep the miles-per-gallon (MPG) rules for regular cars from affecting real trucks, since at the time there were no ordinary vehicles with a gross weight in excess of 6,000 pounds. ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 07:17:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11693; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:15:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:15:36 -0800 Message-ID: <20030116151459.16428.qmail web40414.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:14:59 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115172228.00a78438 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"p3p5y1.0.ds2.Ooi9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Basically what it comes down to is that legislation is not the answer. "Can't change the attitude of the driver" Yes... you can... First we mrecognizenise that driver attitudes did change in a favorable direction in the 70's and 80's then... Jeep snapped them back again. The author also cited this. Although I am not impressed with his hostile tone I do recognise that he did his research. For those who stepped in late. http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030120&s=easterbrook012003 In order to see what it was that changed American attitudes you have to ether have been there or be a real good study of 20th centry history. Folks it was the gas lines. There is nothing in the world that sucks more then waiting in a line for something that you need when there might not be enough to go around (first come first serve) Not the price... Not the taxes... Not the limited range of an 8MPG guzzler... The lines. Understanding Automobile Marketing 101... Take it to the races... That is what makes a car / truck "cool" What is most important to the American buyer? "Survey Says" K-T weithging 10. Style 8.2 Features 7.0 Performance 6.8 Comfort 3.1 Travel range 0.6 Efficiency So first it must be cool (take it to the races) Then equip it with AC a killer stereo and a GPS, electric windows&seats, and, and, and... Make sure that you haven't cost yourself power... Comfort is rather easy if it is big enough... (on the inside) When designing an alternative power-plante powerplant these factors have been ignored in favor of "ease of design" This mistakesentenceath sentance for a pinnovatornal inovator. When I take the survey results and do an analisys of current aternitaves they all score less then 30 where the acceptable score should be above 200. ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 07:54:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30816; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:50:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 07:50:55 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030116101800.00a96400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:50:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. In-Reply-To: <20030116151459.16428.qmail web40414.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115172228.00a78438 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"RuX7l3.0.KX7.VJj9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >Basically what it comes down to is that legislation is not the answer. I think legislation can help solve narrow, engineering problems, especially in safety and efficiency. Legislation can help correct some extreme attitudes with crude methods: by arresting reckless drivers and taking away their licenses. Automated cameras on street corners can catch people who run red lights. >"Can't change the attitude of the driver" Yes... you can... I meant engineering tweaks cannot change people's attitudes. Other forces clearly can, because people's attitudes change all the time. Things like social pressure, fashion, moral imperatives, crisis, war, or revolutionary technological breakthroughs affect people's attitudes and behavior. Minor engineering tweaks to cars will not change behavior, but I predict that someday a major breakthrough will. Perhaps 50 to 100 years from now, all cars will be driven by sentient computers. Automobile accidents will be exceedingly rare -- as rare as airplane crashes are today. A few dozen people may be killed per year. Before that happens we must first improve computers & sensors by a huge extent, and then we will have to fight a long battle, probably for 20 years or more, to convince people that driving is not a form of recreation, or a constitutional right, or a way to express emotion, or proclaim one's social status. It is simply a means of transportation, no different than riding on an escalator. We would be outraged to see someone doing handstands or backflips on an escalator in a public space. Someday it will be equally unthinkable for someone to manually drive a car on the highway. If cars have any manual controls at all (which I doubt), they will be reserved for emergencies, or perhaps private driveways without embedded sensors, as Arthur Clarke predicted in "Imperial Earth." >In order to see what it was that changed American attitudes you have to >ether have been there or be a real good study of 20th centry history. > >Folks it was the gas lines. There is nothing in the world that sucks >more then waiting in a line for something that you need when there might >not be enough to go around (first come first serve) > >Not the price... Not the taxes... Not the limited range of an 8MPG >guzzler... The lines. Gas lines never bothered me. There were larger shortages in WWII, but they caused no social hostility because people were united behind an important cause. Political leaders could inspire similar selflessness today, if they chose to. I do not think they themselves feel any moral imperative for patriotic sacrifice. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 09:05:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30219; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:00:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:00:19 -0800 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:58:45 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002901c2bd80$8880c840$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030115172228.00a78438 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030116101800.00a96400 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA30187 Resent-Message-ID: <"9B96t1.0.5O7.ZKk9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > Perhaps 50 to 100 years from now, > all cars will be driven by sentient computers. Automobile accidents will be > exceedingly rare -- as rare as airplane crashes are today. This is my expectation as well. But I believe that it may even occur sooner, particularly if "Moore's law" is maintained. Quite a bit of Federal research money is already being pumped into early versions, which focus on the infrastructure ("smart roads"). I know some of the researchers at Cal who have been at this for many years already - with demo roads having already been set up and driverless vehicles already doing their thing (in LA where they really need it, as even an old Amiga can out-perform some of those stressed-out la-la land commuters). As you mention, the major problem will at first be ingrained resistance from human drivers. They must first be absolutely convinced of the computer's relative superior performance. That should not be as hard as it appears, given what we have as a norm. BTW, in the provocative movie "AI" I had no problem with the human-appearing smart robots, but a major problem with John Hurt doing his own driving. This film must not have had the budget for it (or a decent script) but the first thing I want to see from the real AI is something to keep all of these cell-phone chatting, chain-smoking, in-attentive soccer-mom SUV drivers from behind the wheel ASAP !! Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 10:18:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31277; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:09:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:09:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20030116180848.87868.qmail web40412.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:08:48 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030116101800.00a96400 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"NFI9v1.0.ae7.OLl9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Charles Ford wrote: > > >Basically what it comes down to is that legislation is not the answer. > > I think legislation can help solve narrow, engineering problems, > especially > in safety and efficiency. Morre concrete, less abstract. my bad. legislation is not the answer. > Automated cameras on street corners can catch people who run red lights. We are testing that here... I think it is great. > >"Can't change the attitude of the driver" Yes... you can... > > I meant engineering tweaks cannot change people's attitudes. Other > forces > clearly can, because people's attitudes change all the time. Things Ok... More concrete, less abstract ... Your bad ;) > >In order to see what it was that changed American attitudes you have > to > >ether have been there or be a real good study of 20th centry history. > > > >Folks it was the gas lines. There is nothing in the world that sucks > >more then waiting in a line for something that you need when there > might > >not be enough to go around (first come first serve) > > > >Not the price... Not the taxes... Not the limited range of an 8MPG > >guzzler... The lines. > > Gas lines never bothered me. I was in California... Guys I am going to have to cut out of this thread... (too much information). Also time is beginning to shorten up for me. ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 14:06:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12831; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:02:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:02:25 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:19:27 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <002901c2bd80$8880c840$0a016ea8 cpq> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"l_xRn1.0.L83.mlo9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. Here's a peek at the next generation of SUV's. http://poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.html Sorry all, but when I look into the marketing crystal ball I see more of this than hybrid's. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 11:59 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. From: "Jed Rothwell" > Perhaps 50 to 100 years from now, > all cars will be driven by sentient computers. Automobile accidents will be > exceedingly rare -- as rare as airplane crashes are today. This is my expectation as well. But I believe that it may even occur sooner, particularly if "Moore's law" is maintained. Quite a bit of Federal research money is already being pumped into early versions, which focus on the infrastructure ("smart roads"). I know some of the researchers at Cal who have been at this for many years already - with demo roads having already been set up and driverless vehicles already doing their thing (in LA where they really need it, as even an old Amiga can out-perform some of those stressed-out la-la land commuters). As you mention, the major problem will at first be ingrained resistance from human drivers. They must first be absolutely convinced of the computer's relative superior performance. That should not be as hard as it appears, given what we have as a norm. BTW, in the provocative movie "AI" I had no problem with the human-appearing smart robots, but a major problem with John Hurt doing his own driving. This film must not have had the budget for it (or a decent script) but the first thing I want to see from the real AI is something to keep all of these cell-phone chatting, chain-smoking, in-attentive soccer-mom SUV drivers from behind the wheel ASAP !! Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 16 16:34:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18855; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:29:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:29:34 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <18.2b55bbfa.2b58a82e aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:28:30 EST Subject: Re: Alpha and circle-to-sphere transformation To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_18.2b55bbfa.2b58a82e_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"lJuXG.0.Qc4.jvq9-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_18.2b55bbfa.2b58a82e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/03 7:55:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes: > How so, Frank - it looks more like 2.2 than 1 ? > Yes, I typed to fast. It is c/2*137 = 1.09 megahertz-meters The vibration of a Bose condensate at this frequency drives the gravitational and nuclear motion constants toward those of the electromagnetic. Frank Z --part1_18.2b55bbfa.2b58a82e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/03 7:55:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


How so, Frank - it looks more like 2.2 than 1 ?


Yes, I typed to fast.  It is c/2*137 = 1.09 megahertz-meters

The vibration of a Bose condensate at this frequency drives the gravitational and nuclear motion constants toward those of the electromagnetic.

Frank Z --part1_18.2b55bbfa.2b58a82e_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 17 12:06:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04080; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:02:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:02:48 -0800 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:03:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Looking for Information on US Physicist of the 1800-1900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"I7hHX1.0.Z_.d56A-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I am Looking for Information on US Physicist who did work in the mid to late the 1800s ...and maybe into 1900s. He was known to JJ Thompson and the last name is all I have: Mayer or Meyer Can anyone contribute and-or direct me to a reference or other? Please and Thanks to you a great bunch. JH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 17 15:12:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00454; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:10:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:10:21 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c2be7d$8cf43800$3c181c43 metrogr.org> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: Subject: Re: Looking for Information on US Physicist of the 1800-1900 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:09:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"TpiYL2.0.s6.Sr8A-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, Narrow it down a little bit--what sort of work was he known for? And could you possibly mean A. T. Myers? kooistra ----- Original Message ----- From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 3:03 PM Subject: Looking for Information on US Physicist of the 1800-1900 > > > > Dear Vo., > > I am Looking for Information on US Physicist who did work in the > mid to late the 1800s ...and maybe into 1900s. > He was known to JJ Thompson and the last name is all I have: > > Mayer or Meyer > > Can anyone contribute and-or direct me to a reference or other? > > Please and Thanks to you a great bunch. > > JH > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 17 20:05:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA31088; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:03:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:03:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E28D326.68755E2 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:08:06 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 17 Jan 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eDHtz1.0.gb7.G8DA-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 17 Jan 03 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:02:13 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 17 Jan 03 Washington, DC 1. FIRST LAW: SELF-POWERED FUEL-LESS GENERATOR AVAILABLE ON ebay. Machines that violate the First Law of Thermodynamics are not new, they are perpetual (WN 5 Apr 02). A sharp-eyed WN reader spotted a classic on ebay. This fully-portable generator is described as a 3 cubic foot "black box" (what else?) with three standard 120-volt electrical outlets to plug home appliances into. It will generate 700 watts continuously...forever. Or so it says. This is not some wild claim about zero-point energy or anti-gravity; the device simply uses an electric motor to spin an alternator that supplies the power to drive the motor. I know, you're going to say the alternator can't possibly supply enough power to run the motor plus a bunch of appliances. But a schematic shows the inventor thought about that a bicycle chain connects the motor to FIVE alternators. That should do it. 2. MORE FIRST LAW: GENESIS PROJECT SHUNS "CONVENTIONAL THINKING." Genesis World Energy (WN 13 Dec 02) proposes to free the world from fossil fuel dependence by "harnessing energy from the molecular structure of water". The idea is deceptively simple: use electrolysis to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen and then use a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity. I know, you're going to say it will take more electricity to split the water than the fuel cell can generate. We've got to think outside the black box. The Genesis people say they assembled a team of 400 top scientists. You think these guys never heard of the conservation of energy? "For security purposes," Genesis explains, "the Genesis Team has elected to disclose little about the science behind the technology. In the absence of detailed information, it is not possible to understand how Genesis' stated results were achieved. Therefore, the scientific community at large will analyze the Genesis Project based on conventional thinking." OK, I'm busted! I've been relying on the First Law of Thermodynamics, which is about as conventional as you can get. 3. HYDROGEN FUEL CELLS: STILL LOOKING FOR A HYDROGEN WELL. A year ago, the Bush Administration announced the "Freedom Car" program to reduce reliance on foreign oil by stimulating development of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. The media gushed that only water would be released into the environment. Hydrogen is generated by electrolysis of water, and 65% of our electricity is generated by power plants that burn fossil fuels. WN asked rhetorically if Spencer Abraham had discovered a hydrogen well (WN 18 Jan 03)? WN has now learned that, meanwhile, selected deep-pocket investors were approached by Genesis to bankroll their secretive Project (see above). The criteria was that they be millionaires. They could save the world and become even richer in the process. 4. ROLL OVER: DETROIT IS LOOKING FOR REALLY BIG FUEL CELLS. Don't look for a big drop in fuel consumption when Detroit turns out its first hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. What's coming out first will be monster SUV's, a market Detroit is loath to cut into. Meanwhile, however, the Administrator of the National Highway Traffic Administration warned that SUVs pose a threat to lighter vehicles and have a dangerous propensity to roll over. A recent study by the National Academy of Sciences found the death rate for SUV occupants to be higher than that of passenger cars. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN. You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 17 20:17:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03448; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:16:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:16:28 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030117191446.00b00f48 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: info%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:12:54 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Info New Energy Times Subject: Whos Who listings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_688496656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <"M7udE3.0.or.SKDA-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_688496656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Vortex: I've put together an online directory to provide listings and promotion for individuals working in the New Energy field, particularly CF. No charge to you and no editing by me. Just doing my part to help out. If any of you would care to be listed here: http://www.newenergytimes.com/whos_who.asp just return any or all of the following: ****************************** Name: Description: Country: Lab/Company name (if any): Lab/Company name continued: Email: Websites URL (if any): Address: Phone: Who's Who Bio: ****************************** Steve Krivit Los Angeles, CA USA www.newenergytimes.com www.coldfusioninfo.com Steve Krivit Los Angeles, CA USA www.newenergytimes.com www.coldfusioninfo.com --=====================_688496656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Vortex:

I've put together an online directory to provide listings and promotion for individuals working in the New Energy field, particularly CF.
No charge to you and no editing by me.   Just doing my part to help out.

If any of you would care to be listed here:
http://www.newenergytimes.com/whos_who.asp
just return any or all of the following:

******************************
Name: 
Description:
Country: 
Lab/Company name (if any): 
Lab/Company name continued: 
Email: 
Websites URL (if any): 
Address: 
Phone: 
Who's Who Bio: 
******************************

Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com
Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com --=====================_688496656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 18 19:50:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25098; Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:48:56 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:48:36 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001701c2bcad$d1ec8ce0$0a016ea8 cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-sZJc2.0._76.e0YA-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: we're all still here. Those not actively listening are out experimenting, that's all... > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 2003 January 15 22:50 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Article about SUVs, energy, etc. > > > From: "Noel Whitney" > > > Sorry to come in on this one guys! > > > > I posted a note re the BEDINI DEVICE recently and got no answers , > > > > Whats happened to Vortex -l ? > > > > Where is everybody? > > > > There appears to have been a large reduction in contributions from many > > previous people - Have they gone to another listing ??? > > > > Comments appreciated. > > Noel, > > There are an number of other forums that have sprung up for > particular interests like magnetic devices and self-powered > motors, and these tend to be frequented by young, enthusiastic > and...well.... gullible experimenters. I hope someone on one of > those forums makes a big breakthrough, but "fringe energy" has > become too diverse and complicated for many of us to closely > follow every wild idea, especially from someone who has, many > times, made claims but failed to deliver - for over a decade. > > I think most of those who have stayed on this forum have long > since given up real hope for ever finding significant OU with > "just" magnets and wires (that could change with RTSC - room > temperature superconductivity) . Many here are far more > open-minded than most, but nevertheless see some variation of > LENR or CANR involving hydrogen in some way, or water > electrolysis, as the most promising avenue for success ( I > personally believe there may be some modest amount of OU > potential in magnets and wires but *experience is the best > teacher* and literally thousands of very clever people have been > tinkering with magnets, batteries and wires for over a century > with not a single bona fide fully reproducible OU device). > Speaking for myself, I don't think we would have ever heard from > Bedini, Bearden and their ilk if they had just learned to use a > dedicated power analyzer. Apparently for some shameless > self-promoters, it is cheaper to buy a mail-order PhD certificate > than a good power ana! > lyzer. > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 19 12:36:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10106; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:34:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:34:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2AFDD9.9615E704 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:36:22 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6?= References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FE5F6ED2EA1C9314AA06FE4C" Resent-Message-ID: <"3IiNg.0.eT2.ukmA-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FE5F6ED2EA1C9314AA06FE4C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Key Caps program is available up to OS9.2. I suggest the program was omitted during the upgrade. Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > At 1:24 AM 1/12/3, thomas malloy wrote: > >>Horace Heffner Posted; > >> > >>On a Mac you simply type option-u before the vowel you wish to umlaut, e.g. > >>, , , , . > > > >Thanks for the tip Horace, I tried it and the two dots came out under > >the e. I used to be able to get the various keyboards to display so > >that I could find all of those odd keys. When I upgraded to OS 8.6, I > >lost that ability, do you happen to know how to do that? > > I'm still runnning my email on OS 7.5, so I probably can't help you. On OS > 7.5 you still have the Key Caps function to select under the Apple menu to > do that. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner --------------FE5F6ED2EA1C9314AA06FE4C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="storms2.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="storms2.vcf" begin:vcard n:; tel;work:505 988 3673 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html org:Energy K. System adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html version:2.1 email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Edmund Storms end:vcard --------------FE5F6ED2EA1C9314AA06FE4C-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 20 18:32:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22694; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:30:05 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Freeware Physical Constants / other utilities mini-review Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:29:48 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030115234116.00695254 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"P8uBP.0.WY5.i2BB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, everyone. I especially found http://www.processassociates.com/process/tools.htm a good launch point. What I had in mind was more like a software*database package including the basic information you find at http://www.nist.gov/srd and http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Category?view=html&All+values.x=87&All+v alues.y=14 Some of the data there is free, albeit one... click... at.. a... time. cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 January 16 06:41 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Freeware Physical Constants / other utilities mini-review > > > At 05:21 pm 15-01-03 -0500, you wrote: > >Jones Beene wrote: > > > >>For a decent freeware converter for Windoze: > >>http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/ > > > >I think you mean: > > > >http://www.esbconsult.com/esbcalc/esbunitconv.html > > > >That looks nice! I have been using the on-line utility here: > > > >http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm > > > Thanks for that processassociates URL Jed. > > I prefer to keep programs off my hard drive where possible; > especially since the esbconsult converter didn't seem to have > any uninstall file for my operating system (Windows 95). > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 01:12:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA17367; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:12:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:12:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:11:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Tom Bearden's mailorder PhD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"jmwWV3.0.HF4.exGB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That just goes to show what I've always said about Bearden, since I read his book, Fer Du Lance. You can't believe everything that he says. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 07:35:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA14301; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:32:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:32:09 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030121103114.00afb300 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:32:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: APS cold fusion session Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2qypn3.0.NV3.vVMB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR03/baps/abs/S3930.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 11:17:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08143; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:12:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:12:22 -0800 Message-ID: <20030121191133.41573.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:11:33 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: No Segways alloud! To: Beaty VortexList MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"N4FHY.0.4_1.LkPB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-U.S.&idq=/ff/story/5001%2F20030120%2F1719000005.htm&sc=U.S.&photoid= ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 11:28:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18436; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:26:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:26:16 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: A secret message encoded in your DNA, for Jones... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:43:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"XJbHA1.0.-V4.NxPB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/01/18/12592-ap.html Human genome waxes melodic By DANIEL WOOLLS MADRID (AP) - Imagine the human genome as music. Unravel DNA's double helix, picture its components lined up like piano keys and assign a note to each. Run your finger along the keys. Spanish scientists did that just for fun and recorded what they call an audio version of the blueprint for life. The team at Madrid's Ramon y Cajal Hospital was intrigued by music's lure - how it can make toddlers dance and adults cry - and looked for hints in the genetic material that makes us what we are. They also had some microbial genes wax melodic. The end product is Genoma Music, a 10-tune CD due out in February. "It's a way to bring science and music closer together," said Dr. Aurora Sanchez Sousa, a piano-playing microbiologist who specializes in fungi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 11:43:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26056; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:39:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:39:02 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030121142352.00aee008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:38:44 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: No Segways alloud! In-Reply-To: <20030121191133.41573.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9DS0C.0.-M6.M7QB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Segways are quiet, not loud, so they are not alloud or allowed in S.F. I find this a little unreasonable. The city officials should give these things a chance before banning them. People sometimes ban or unreasonably restrict new technology only because it is new. They demand much higher standards of safety from new technology than from existing technology, which is irrational. Most potential problems with the Segway can be addressed setting the sidewalk speed limits to, say, 6 mph (jogging speed), rather than 12 mph (Segway top speed). People on bicycles and roller skates sometimes ignore sidewalk speed limits, but the kind of people who spend thousands of dollars on a Segway gadget will probably be law-abiding. Apart from the speed, the Segway should be no more disruptive than strollers or wheelchairs. There are many problems with sidewalks in U.S. cities: there are not enough, they are not wide enough, and they are often in miserable condition. My solution is to chop out large sections of the automobile pavement and hand it over to pedestrians and bicycles, or simply ban conventional, private automobiles altogether. That will fix the traffic and parking problems in a jiffy. That is how many cities in Europe work. It is better for everyone. Everyone gets around faster and more conveniently. In Washington DC parking on most residential streets is no longer allowed, except for immediate residents (people living on that street). That is a big improvement. Automobiles are a failed 19th century solution to 21st century problems. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 11:56:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00890; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:53:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:53:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DA519.8090608 rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:52:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Do the Brits Have an Antigravity Device? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dzpsn.0.qD.BLQB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2032 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2052 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 12:11:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03953; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:58:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:58:09 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030121195744.00695164 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:57:44 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: APS cold fusion session Resent-Message-ID: <"57-rw1.0.dz.GPQB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:32 am 21-01-03 -0500, you wrote: >See: > >http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR03/baps/abs/S3930.html > >- Jed They were very interesting. I notice that the Sonofusion abstract refers to "metal foils" but does not say which metal. It would be nice to think (and I do) that cold fusion will not have to depend on a supply of relatively exotic palladium. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 12:27:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19442; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:25:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:25:16 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030121202458.006a63f4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:24:58 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Do the Brits Have an Antigravity Device? Resent-Message-ID: <"fiudd1.0.el4.ioQB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:52 pm 21-01-03 -0500, you wrote: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2032 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2052 > > > Being a Brit, I do hope so. :-) It will certainly put the Harrier in the shade, eh! Fascinating stuff. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 13:03:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08206; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:59:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:59:47 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030121152102.00aee008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:59:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sometime a little nudge causes a social avalanche Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Z8ihn2.0.302.2JRB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The book about SUVs, "High and Mighty" is causing a buzz in newspapers and discussion groups across the country. Apparently SUVs have upset many people, for many years, and a backlash has begun. Every fad reaches absurd limits before fading away. Let us hope the SUV fad is coming to an end. People have lately been talking about the spread of ideas or "memes" (fundamental units of meaning -- basic ideas). Internet tools allow social scientists and journalists to watch ideas propagate more quickly and in greater detail than ever before. When the first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary was written, it used to take months to track down examples of word use, and to find the earliest likely example. Now, with new word, anyone can trace the word history in minutes. I have long been fascinated with the spread of memes and with the social phenomenon that in mathematics is called a "crisis" or "catastrophe" (although it may be a happy occasion and not a bit catastrophic in the usual sense). A seemingly trivial incident can set off a chain of events with enormous consequences. A scientist notices a curious pattern in bread mold, and a few years later millions of lives are saved by antibiotics. The AT&T monopoly was broken up by events triggered when a lawyer went for a walk at lunch, and an executive years later forgot his raincoat. See: http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1222.htm This would not have happened unless the monopoly had been primed for self-destruction. AT&T was a fat, profitable target, inviting competition. The company made too many enemies who were waiting for a chance for revenge. I think Microsoft may be setting itself up for a similar fall, by making enemies. The most poignant similar event in modern history was the assassination of the archduke Francis Ferdinand in 1914. It led to war not by coincidence or happenstance, but because Europe was primed for war, and the Kaiser was looking for an excuse to go to war. An American newspaper at the time wrote that the incident itself could have been settled by a police court. When leaders are determined to fight, they will seize any excuse: a tray of empty tennis balls sent as a taunt (Henry V), or seven empty, forgotten poison gas shells (George II). I should not post political comments like that . . . But I have something on-topic in mind. I have long suspected -- and hoped -- that society is primed to begin accepting the reality of cold fusion. It is impossible to know this, but I am encouraged by the public response to the LENR-CANR web page, which has been greater than I hoped for. Researchers have told me they sense renewed interest in the field. It would be wonderful to see thousands of people working on the field, but a small number may be enough. If one or two more scientists of Carlo Rubbia's stature sign on, we may see some profound changes. Before they sign on, they must be made aware of the situation, and (I presume) they must read papers and think about the technical issues. That is what I hope the web site will facilitate. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 13:12:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11534; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:08:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:08:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DB6A6.7020207 rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:07:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Antigravity Machine Geometry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WYHeV.0.8q2.PRRB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A little more on the Brit device: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2040 Isn't the "silly season" over? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 13:34:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21688; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:31:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:31:07 -0800 From: Erikbaard aol.com Message-ID: <14e.1a8e056d.2b5f15e6 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:30:14 EST Subject: Immunization Against Remorse, in a Pill? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10637 Resent-Message-ID: <"DxC2r1.0.oI5.QmRB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New therapies to prevent the onset of post traumatic stress disorder may also stop the formation of healthy feelings of deep remorse over one's wrongdoings.Will soldiers be less hesitant to take questionable lethal action if they know they'll be able to live with themselves? Will rapists and murderers qualify for this treatment? Ethical implications are explored in this coverstory. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0304/baard.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 14:44:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23059; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:41:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:41:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030121164851.00af2570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:40:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Immunization Against Remorse, in a Pill? In-Reply-To: <14e.1a8e056d.2b5f15e6 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"A61AP1.0.Ae5.5oSB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Erikbaard aol.com wrote: >New therapies to prevent the onset of post traumatic stress disorder may >also stop the formation of healthy feelings of deep remorse over one's >wrongdoings.Will soldiers be less hesitant to take questionable lethal >action if they know they'll be able to live with themselves? That is an interesting article! To answer your question, my guess is "no." Soldiers are trained extensively & successfully to overcome some natural instincts, and to enhance others. The training can hardly be improved on. Individual soldiers have killed up to 250,000 defenseless people at a time, with nuclear weapons. These were not monstrous, psychotic people. They were not like Roman gladiators, inured from childhood to extreme brutality. They were ordinary, sane, modern, middle-class Americans. No matter how much future remorse or instinctive inhibitions such acts might trigger, proper training can overcome these factors. It is difficult to imagine how this drug or anything else could make soldiers in extremis more brutal than they already are. Fortunately, in most battles, soldiers are not all that brutal, according the memoirs I have read. It depends on the war. WWII battles in Western Europe was relatively sane, and fought according the "rules of war." Prisoners and civilians were seldom deliberately killed. It was much worse on the Russian front and in the Pacific. In the U.S. Civil War, civilian murders and other atrocities were almost unknown, and battles were frequently halted to evacuate the wounded. This article describes another notion: that it would be a good idea to eliminate fear in soldiers. This has been done successfully by other means. Some crack Japanese soldiers early in WWII were so well trained they threw away their lives when ordered to, for a pittance. They would be ordered to slowly walk out in front of U.S. trenches, in full view of both sides, to draw fire and reveal the location of U.S. machine guns. They actually did this; I have read eye-witness accounts from both sides confirming it. This is quite different from flying a desperate, last-ditch kamikaze mission when you might sink an entire ship and kill hundreds of enemy soldiers. They did this to destroy one or two machine guns, and perhaps win one skirmish, even in battles their side was winning anyway! For centuries, commanders have wanted fearless soldiers. It turns out that with a modern war, fought with modern weapons, fearless soldiers lose. Thousands of Japanese soldiers trained like that were often wiped out completely by much smaller U.S. forces, with 10:1 casualties in some cases, even in the early stages of the war in Guadalcanal when both sides had roughly equal firepower. Japanese crack troops were trained to throw away their lives, and U.S. crack troops were trained to keep their heads down, keep their wits about them, and survive. Japanese soldiers achieved such fanatical standards, their bravery became a weakness. During the battle of Midway, several of Japan's most skilled admirals & captains, such as Adm. Yamaguchi, could have easily been saved, but they tied themselves to the anchors and went down with their ships. Such romantic gestures thrilled the Japanese public when they were reported, but they were a gift to the U.S. Navy. The loss of Yamaguchi on the Hiryu may have hurt the Japanese navy as much as the loss of the ship itself. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 21 14:45:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24477; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:42:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:42:35 -0800 Message-ID: <20030121224200.84610.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:42:00 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Antigravity Machine Geometry To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3E2DB6A6.7020207 rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"0YZu61.0.I-5.RpSB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry: Those are real cool links.. except.... They are for members only. --- Terry Blanton wrote: > A little more on the Brit device: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2040 > > Isn't the "silly season" over? > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 22 02:15:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA28576; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:14:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:14:11 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030122101356.0068db90 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:13:56 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Do the Brits Have an Antigravity Device? Resent-Message-ID: <"9-g0l2.0.O-6.oxcB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:52 pm 21-01-03 -0500, you wrote: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2032 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2052 A Google search on wingedpiguk suggests a connection with h2g2, the Earth Edition of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy! It figures. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 22 05:28:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA10905; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:27:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:27:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2E9BF9.8020100 rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:17 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigravity Machine Geometry References: <20030121224200.84610.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F0mxd3.0.Eg2.gmfB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >Terry: > >Those are real cool links.. except.... They are for members only. > > Odd, since I had no trouble opening them without joining the group - possibly because I am a member of other Yahoo groups? Anyway, the pain in joining is minimal. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 22 06:23:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13039; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 06:20:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 06:20:38 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030122142018.0069bbec pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:20:18 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Do the Brits Have an Antigravity Device? Resent-Message-ID: <"nCV-x.0.UB3.rYgB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:52 pm 21-01-03 -0500, you wrote: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2032 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2052 > > A Google search on wingedpiguk suggests a connection with h2g2, the Earth Edition of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy! It figures. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 22 09:46:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24939; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:38:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:38:48 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030122122517.00a7ad20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:38:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Immunization Against Remorse, in a Pill? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030121164851.00af2570 pop.mindspring.com> References: <14e.1a8e056d.2b5f15e6 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uVAj02.0.b56.eSjB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few corrections . . . I wrote: >The training can hardly be improved on. Individual soldiers have killed up >to 250,000 defenseless people at a time, with nuclear weapons. I meant ~125,000. And let make it very clear I do not blame the soldiers themselves! >It is difficult to imagine how this drug or anything else could make >soldiers in extremis more brutal than they already are. Several people in the article say that perhaps the pill should be used to prevent damage to the psyches of the soldiers. I concur. My point is that it is not likely to make soldiers more brutal than they are, because they are already (sometimes) as brutal as can be. But properly trained soldiers only go to extremes when they have no choice. U.S. soldiers are well disciplined and professional, and unlikely to commit atrocities with or without a pill. >Some crack Japanese soldiers early in WWII were so well trained they threw >away their lives when ordered to, for a pittance. Some, not all. There were plenty of sane, non-fanatical Japanese soldiers. Also, later in the war the commanding officers stopped ordering them to throw away their lives. They adapted U.S. tactics, kept their heads down, and began killing many more Americans than they did earlier. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 22 23:53:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA32022; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:51:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:51:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2FA02C.8087A259 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:56:28 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Nanotech 2003, Full Program Announcement] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SNjAG.0.Dq7.IyvB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nanotech 2003, Full Program Announcement Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:32:46 -0800 From: "NSTI" Reply-To: nanotech nsti.org To: "aki ix.netcom.com" 2003 Nanotechnology Conference and Tradeshow, NanoTech 2003 The Breakaway Event for Nanotechnology for 2003 has Taken Every Meeting and Exhibit Space Scientists and Exhibits Overflow to the Hallways! Nanotech 2003--February 23-27 2003 San Francisco, California USA Full Program Now Available On-Line at http://www.nanotech2003.com Don't Get Locked Out-Reserve Now for Nanotech 2003 - Full capacity program--over 550 Technical & Business Presentations - Sold Out Nanotech Exhibition-overflow added - Over 1700 Pages of Nanotechnology Publications - Over 250 Participating Companies 3 Volume Nanotech Publication is Largest Collection Available Pre-order now at the pre-conference reduced rate. - Nanotech 2003 Vol. 1-3, Over 1,700 pages of the most up-to-date nanotechnology summary available worldwide. To order: http://www.nanotech2003.com/2003orders.html - NSTI Nanotechnology Annual Review. A summary of the most promising technologies, their technology leaders, companies, products and markets. To order: http://www.nsti.org/2003review.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- * Nanotech 2003, a collaborative summit focused on SHARING Science & Research and DEVELOPING New Business in: NanoTechnology -Materials & Nanostructures, Nano & Carbon Devices, Energy & Fuel Cells -Atomistics, Multiscale and Molecular Modeling, Membranes -Molecular Electronics, Sensors & Electronics, Nano-Bio Systems MicroTechnology -Semiconductors, Micro Electro Mechanical Systems (MEMS) -Microelectronics; Processes, Materials, TCAD, Macromodeling -Quantum Effects, Quantum Devices and Spintronics, Electronics BioTechnology -Drug Design, Molecular Medicine, Proteomics & Protein Engineering -Ion Channels, Biomimetic Membranes, Computational Biology -DNA and Protein Chips, Micro-Nano Fluidics, Human Performance ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *Nanotech 2003 is focused on PERSONAL Dialog & Interaction with: Longer, INTERACTIVE sessions--for better transfer of knowledge More Poster Breakout sessions--to cover every specialty/niche Invitational Peer Review sessions--to speed validation More vendors & suppliers--introduce new tools & explore applications ----------------------------------------------------------------------- * CONFERENCE SPONSORS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sponsored or Endorsed by: Nano Science and Technology Institute (NSTI) DARPA, Accelyrs, Ardesta, SmallTimes, LARTA, Swiss Nanotech, Oppenheimer, Ciphergen, NanoBusiness Alliance, M+W Zander, NanoSig, Belgian Nanotech, San Francisco Consulting Group, Motorola, Comsol, ANSYS, CFDRC, ACRS, IEEE-EDS, ASME-Nanotech Institute, EPFL, TIMA-CMP, American Laboratory FOR INFORMATION ON HOW YOU CAN EXHIBIT or SPONSOR email sponsor nsti.org or call (508)357-2925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To register for Nanotech 2003: http://www.nanotech2003.com/2003register.html To book your room at the conference headquarters hotel: http://www.nanotech2003.com/2003housing.html Please address all questions and requests to info nsti.org or call (508)357-2925 (c) Nano Science and Technology Institute --- You are currently subscribed to nanotech as: aki ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-nanotech-4544355Q spirit.sparklist.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 23 01:17:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA02523; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:16:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:16:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:16:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Nerve poison Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xNXqZ1.0.Fd.WBxB-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My friend in convinced that Paul Wellstone was murdered. He is friends with the man who authored the website assassinationscience.org . He pointed out that Dick Chaney threatened him over his opposition to the Iraq war. Then someone used an EMP weapon to destroy the electronics in the airplane. That's why the woman heading up the investigation is former CIA. I know that Paul got sprayed with that herbacide that we are soaking Columbia with. I've also heard that the inert ingredients in the herbacide are more toxic than the biotoxic ingredients. The manufactures don't have to list them either. What follows is something that Phil sent me. There does not appear to be a mercury or heavy metal contamination from gpyphosate, but "acrylamide is a potent nerve toxin in humans " www.i-sis.org.uk/acrylamide.php and could translocate the already existing mercury toxins stored in the fat cells of the brain and the rest of the body because acrylamide is also a surfactant which could help the mercury from the rest of the body to cross the blood-brain barrier and further poison the brain cells and cause MS symptoms. Dr. Joel Wallach ND who has done over a thousand human autopsies says that the brain tissue of humans with MS, ALS, and Parkinsons have mercury poisoning of different parts of the brain. Phil From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 23 11:54:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25959; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:49:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:49:11 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123142854.00b12000 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:48:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nerve poison In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"401l51.0.XL6.sS4C-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >My friend in convinced that Paul Wellstone was murdered. > >He is friends with the man who authored the website >assassinationscience.org . He pointed out that Dick Chaney threatened him >over his opposition to the Iraq war. In common with many other conspiracy theories, this one lacks a plausible motive. I know little about Cheney, but hypothetically supposing he is the most demonic politician in Washington, he would still have no reason to do this. He was never in any danger of losing the vote. If it had been a tight vote, and Wellstone had been the charismatic leader of the opposition, that would be a semi-plausible reason to threaten or attack him. But Wellstone was marginal and there is no chance the motion would be defeated. Cheney would no more attack him than Roosevelt would bother to attack Jeannette Rankin in 1941. (She was the sole member of Congress who voted against declaring war, and she also voted against WWI. It says something about the U.S. political system that a statue of Rankin was placed in the U.S. Capital Building in 1985. It is hard to imagine an obscure, unpopular dissident in any other country being so honored.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 24 21:07:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28751; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:05:18 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Yakov Smirnoff Reply-To: rockcast net-link.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antigravity Machine Geometry Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:09:16 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <20030121224200.84610.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030121224200.84610.qmail web40408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <200301250009.16604.rockcast net-link.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA28688 Resent-Message-ID: <"9mWMs1.0.817.DiXC-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Better yet, Yahoos want you to eat alllllll the coooookies they can shove down your throat. Nope, not this netizen. Yakov On Tuesday 21 January 2003 17:42, Charles Ford wrote: > Terry: > > Those are real cool links.. except.... They are for members only. > > --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > A little more on the Brit device: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Antigravity/message/2040 > > > > Isn't the "silly season" over? > > > > > ===== > Charles Ford > KC5-OWZ > cjford1 yahoo.com > cjford1 swbell.net > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 24 21:24:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05609; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:23:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 21:23:30 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Yakov Smirnoff Reply-To: rockcast net-link.net To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nerve poison Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:27:32 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123142854.00b12000 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123142854.00b12000 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <200301250027.32875.rockcast net-link.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA05572 Resent-Message-ID: <"zz4xG.0.ZN1.IzXC-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 23 January 2003 14:48, Jed Rothwell wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > > >My friend in convinced that Paul Wellstone was murdered. > > > >He is friends with the man who authored the website > >assassinationscience.org . He pointed out that Dick Chaney threatened him > >over his opposition to the Iraq war. > > In common with many other conspiracy theories, this one lacks a plausible > motive. > > I know little about Cheney, but hypothetically supposing he is the most > demonic politician in Washington, he would still have no reason to do this. > He was never in any danger of losing the vote. If it had been a tight vote, > and Wellstone had been the charismatic leader of the opposition, that would > be a semi-plausible reason to threaten or attack him. But Wellstone was > marginal and there is no chance the motion would be defeated. Cheney would > no more attack him than Roosevelt would bother to attack Jeannette Rankin > in 1941. (She was the sole member of Congress who voted against declaring > war, and she also voted against WWI. It says something about the U.S. > political system that a statue of Rankin was placed in the U.S. Capital > Building in 1985. It is hard to imagine an obscure, unpopular dissident in > any other country being so honored.) > > - Jed > > > > Wellstone was killed before the election, an election that was fairly uncertain as to other races in the country at the time. To eliminate him and replace him with a republican would have by itself tipped the balance of power in the Senate. The only loose end was Ventura. He would have to play ball on this senate appointment. Possibly he had something in his colorful past that the republicans knew about so their gauleiters pressed him. Elections are evidently easy to steal now, look how that mob stole the Florida election by simply threatening to beat up the Dade County Election Commission! Before Wellstone was 'liquidated', a bill to set up concentration camps for up to 24 million Americans was rewritten to leave this and the other provision, the one for a citizen spy corps of about 8 million neighborhood informers and block wardens and a provision for an internal passport system like in South Africa under apartheid were left out also. I am talking about the Homeland Security bill that was eventually passed. It was a big bill; conceivably some of these provisions may still lurk cloaked in seemingly innocuous language, or could not be added. The lure of an internal coup d'etat by radical republican elements could have been the motive if this is what happened. This kind of stuff keeps up and the flow of people across the Rio Grande will probably reverse for obvious reasons. Folks do not like tyranny. Yakov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 25 10:12:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19623; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:10:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:10:57 -0800 Message-ID: <046a01c2c49c$f563dce0$6501a8c0 craig2> From: "SnowDog" To: "Vortex" Subject: Self-Sustaining Generator on Sale Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:09:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"hSwDW.0.To4.mCjC-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This auction is for a fuelless, self-sustaining, generator on eBay. Is this a fraud? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11771&item=3001165002 Craig (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 25 12:16:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24359; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:12:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:12:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3E32F0E4.8579FBA7 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:17:40 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 24 Jan 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XABuF1.0.Wy5.A_kC-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: oops. forgot to foward this earlier. -ak- -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 24 Jan 03 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:24:29 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 24 Jan 03 Washington, DC 1. NASA: TWICE ABANDONED, IS NUCLEAR ROCKET DEVELOPMENT ON AGAIN? Efforts to develop a nuclear rocket engine were abandoned in 1972 to make funds available for the space shuttle. That was the first bad choice. The idea was secretly revived in the eighties as project Timberwind, based on the use of a uranium carbide particle bed reactor to heat hydrogen as a high specific impulse propellant. It was intended to provide a pop-up launcher for a Star Wars missile defense. That wasn't a great plan either, and Timberwind died when SDI died (WN 5 Apr 91). Now, as project Prometheus, its development is being linked to possible human exploration of Mars. It is even rumored that President Bush will announce plans for human exploration of Mars in his January 28 State of the Union Address to Congress. That's yet another bad idea. The exploration of Mars should be carried out by robots, but that's no reason not to develop a nuclear rocket. It would greatly speed up robotic exploration of the solar system. 2. BIOSPHERE-2: COULD A HUMAN COLONY ON MARS BE SELF-SUSTAINING? When eight "biospherians," dressed in Star-Trek uniforms, marched into their gleaming 3-acre terrarium in 1991 and closed the air lock, it was hailed as a bold experiment. They vowed to remain for two years, recycling water, air and waste and growing their own food. It didn't take that long to get an answer. Within weeks, the crystal-clear "ocean" turned to slime. Biospherians were soon gasping for air; then the crops failed. Texas oil billionaire Edward Bass, who had bankrolled Biosphere-2, turned to Columbia University to find a legitimate science use. But the original research question was already answered: Far larger and more elaborate than anything that could be transported to Mars, Biosphere-2 could not sustain eight humans. Columbia is pulling out, but Biosphere-2 could still be useful. Anyone who proposes a space colony could be sent there to live for two years. 3. PRIVACY: SENATE BLOCKS "TOTAL INFORMATION AWARENESS" FUNDING. By a voice vote, the Senate yesterday voted to ban funding for the "Total Information Awareness" program until the Pentagon provides an analysis of its impact on civil liberties (WN 20 Dec 02). The program would involve electronic surveillance of personal data of all Americans. The senators were also concerned that the program would be under John Poindexter, who was national security advisor to President Reagan. Poindexter was convicted of lying to Congress in the Iran-Contra scandal. On appeal, his conviction was set aside only on the grounds that his immunized congressional testimony had been used against him. The TIA ban is not yet law. Introduced by Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), it was added to a spending package which must still go to House/Senate negotiators to resolve differences. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN. You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 26 03:44:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA27687; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:43:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 03:43:44 -0800 Message-ID: <003401c2c530$52d6b4e0$418e209a ggrf30j> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <046a01c2c49c$f563dce0$6501a8c0 craig2> Subject: Re: Self-Sustaining Generator on Sale Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:40:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Resent-Message-ID: <"R3i402.0.Rm6.ldyC-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <> Yes it is, without a shadow of a doubt. It is the old delusion that if a motor spins a generator, then it can also spin several generators at the same time, feeding back enough power to run the motor plus free power to spare. The deceit in offers like this can be explained easily. If it takes a certain amount of "oomph" to turn one generator then if you chain, say, six generators together the motor needs SIX times as much "oomph" to spin the six generators. As motors and generators can never be 100% efficient this set up can not even break even let alone generate 700 watts continuously for 10 years. The "guarantee" offered will be worthless. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 26 10:17:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26050; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:15:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:15:50 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030126130108.00af7768 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:15:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New papers on LENR-CANR.org / melt-down event Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"EyR893.0.xM6.MN2D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I uploaded papers by Savvatimov (about glow discharge), Miley and Castellano. Another by Sankaranarayanan about tritium from Ni wires is coming soon. More should be coming from Miles, if his grad student can find the papers on the computer. It is amazing to me how many of these researchers have misplaced or thrown away critical data and manuscripts. Speaking of that, Last week I asked Martin Fleischmann about one of the worst cases of lost data in history. I asked him whether they preserved physical data from the famous melt down event described by Beaudette, that burned a hole in the floor. He said, "no, and that was one of the worst mistakes I have ever made. You see, when I make a stupid mistake, I admit it!" I asked why not, and he said, "because we thought we could do it again soon." That is the same thing Mizuno said after his giant 85 MJ heat-after-death event. Fleischmann said he particularly wishes they had investigated fragments embedded in the hood, above the cell. We are preparing to upload a long HTML-formatted paper by Ed Storms which has links to many of Acrobat-formatted papers in the library: "A Student's Guide to Cold Fusion." It is quite an undertaking. I would make it an Acrobat file, but the linking feature does not work well, or I can't make it work. HTML is smaller & cleaner anyway. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 26 10:40:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03261; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:38:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:38:32 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030126133752.00b05f00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:38:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Kooistra on LENR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mgWzr2.0.to.ei2D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.analogsf.com/0302/altview.shtml - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 26 11:19:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18590; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:16:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:16:42 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <17d.15d3d590.2b658deb aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 14:15:55 EST Subject: Fwd: Anti-Gravity Explained To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_17d.15d3d590.2b658deb_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10638 Resent-Message-ID: <"zbx3P3.0.JY4.QG3D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_17d.15d3d590.2b658deb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_17d.15d3d590.2b658deb_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xn05.mx.aol.com (rly-xn05.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.138]) by air-xn01.mail.aol.com (v90.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXN14-0126023635; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:36:35 1900 Received: from txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.229]) by rly-xn05.mx.aol.com (v90_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXN57-0126023538; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:35:38 1900 Received: from Ed (cs24160152-99.satx.rr.com [24.160.152.99]) by txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h0Q7Ueub008786; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 02:30:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Ed Fouche'" To: "Frank Znidarsic" , "Puthoff" Subject: Anti-Gravity Explained Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:35:49 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2C4DB.418DF720" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2C4DB.418DF720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.handpen.com/Bio/gravity.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2C4DB.418DF720 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Anti-Gravity Explained.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Anti-Gravity Explained.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.handpen.com/Bio/gravity.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.handpen.com/Bio/gravity.htm Modified=2010B7810DC5C201FD ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C2C4DB.418DF720-- --part1_17d.15d3d590.2b658deb_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 26 11:19:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18560; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:16:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:16:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3E342640.36243724 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:17:54 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kooistra on LENR References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030126133752.00b05f00 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------85862729017F265341A67945" Resent-Message-ID: <"2SvlM2.0.wX4.OG3D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------85862729017F265341A67945 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, I had not got to this when I asked for a copy. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://www.analogsf.com/0302/altview.shtml > > - Jed --------------85862729017F265341A67945 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="storms2.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="storms2.vcf" begin:vcard n:; tel;work:505 988 3673 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html org:Energy K. System adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html version:2.1 email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Edmund Storms end:vcard --------------85862729017F265341A67945-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 26 13:13:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03312; Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:10:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 13:10:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rmuha mail.minimal.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <17d.15d3d590.2b658deb aol.com> References: <17d.15d3d590.2b658deb aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:10:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Fwd: Anti-Gravity Explained Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"e7bpk2.0.gp.Lx4D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > http://www.handpen.com/Bio/gravity.htm this paper contains a reference to >"Guidelines to Antigravity" by [the late] Dr. Robert Forward, >written in 1962 >(available at: http://www.whidbey.com/forward/pdf/tp007.pdf) I've been there before to get other papers by Forward, but now the entire site is gone, nothing at all under www.whidbey.com/forward google still lists www.whidbey.com/forward as his main page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 09:35:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26976; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:27:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:27:07 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:25:03 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Building on the past To: vortex Message-id: <000901c2c629$07bed1a0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C5E5.F91CEBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"C3PUg1.0.Pb6.glMD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C5E5.F91CEBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In 2001, about 40,000 companies in the United States went bankrupt, a = staggering figure that doesn=92t even begin to express the personal loss = for individual workers in terms of jobs, investments and careers. Many = journalists and professors are now beginning to reconstruct this sad = chapter of our economic history. But the lessons for the future are = somewhat contradictory =96 except of course, the heresy of my favorite = capitalist, Gordon Gekko in his notorious pronouncement that "greed is = good." Among the most poignant stories about the recent disaster in high tech = is the following piece from "Wired." http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.02/code.html The reason that this story stands out as special for me is that it is = meaningful on a number of diverse levels, far removed from the more = obvious admonitions about greed, deceit and corporate manipulation. = Perhaps, the implications of the piece even portend a future hidden = struggle: one that has been glossed over time and again in Sci-Fi and = movies =96 the coming struggle of man and machine, of gene vs. meme, of = DNA vs. code.=20 But conflicts between people and their technological creations will = likely be far more subtle in the next decade than in the movies. Such as = when (within a very few years) you are able to finally tie-in such = things as advanced VR (voice recognition), to advanced parsing software = and then into "expert system" databases. This small convergence of = existing technologies could displace (almost overnight !!) as many as 10 = million telephone operators, support personnel, order takers, = telemarketers, etc. Believe it or not, this "advance" may hurt a country = like India or Ireland more than the USA. There was an old business strategy from the dot.bomb days that said that = the successful high-tech company would have a gigantic collection of = reusable prepackaged software code, which would be its "crown jewels," = allowing the company to quickly enter any new niche market. But that = strategy hasn=92t panned out yet. Software developers in the 90's = realized that good programming was more about people and less about = code. And that is how it stands now, for the most part, at the start of = a new millennium.=20 But that dynamic may not survive the next cycle of expansion and = collapse. And there may even be a couple of examples of crown jewels out = there that can be had (from bankruptcy court) for a pittance. "Some code is so complex and ingenious it can't be repeated. It's the = sort of software Rolf Herken calls deep programming - large, well- = maintained, algorithm-heavy systems that draw from many disciplines and = are graced with loyal customers. The collective insight and labor poured = into such undertakings is too vast to be tossed, and, with disciplined = upgrades to handle changing hardware, it doesn't need to be. "Think of a = DNA strand. It looks random, but it's the opposite. It's extremely = meaningful. It took billions of years to build it. Deep programming is = the result of that kind of effort.=92 " Like many who tried to prognosticate the future in the late 90=92s, I = was absolutely convinced back then that the "next big thing (s)" would = be (in order of probability) 1.. Alternative energy, involving a breakthrough in either cold fusion = or the hydrino 2.. RTSC room temperature superconductivity 3.. Voice recognition ( perhaps the future beneficiary of deep = programming) None of these potential block-busters really participated significantly = in the last boom cycle (to my personal economic detriment, as it turns = out) Instead, the internet and genetic engineering got all the glory and = did almost all the damage (with some major successes along the way).=20 The jury is still out - whether or not any of these embryonic = technologies, RTSC, free energy, or VR - or all of them - perhaps with = genetic "cloning" added to the top of the list - will any of these be = the technological "fuel" which is able to fire up the next big economic = bubble, hopefully soon? Again, I would like to think it is all of them, and that the = prognosticators of 7 years ago were just 10 years ahead of the curve. = But as Mark Twain so accurately saw it, "Prophesy is a good line of = business, but it is full of risks." =20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C5E5.F91CEBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In 2001, about 40,000 companies in the United States went bankrupt, a = staggering figure that doesn=92t even begin to express the personal loss = for=20 individual workers in terms of jobs, investments and careers. Many = journalists=20 and professors are now beginning to reconstruct this sad chapter of our = economic=20 history. But the lessons for the future are somewhat contradictory =96 = except of=20 course, the heresy of my favorite capitalist, Gordon Gekko in his = notorious=20 pronouncement that "greed is good."

Among the most poignant stories about the recent disaster in high = tech is the=20 following piece from "Wired."

http://www.wi= red.com/wired/archive/11.02/code.html

The reason that this story stands out as special for me is that it is = meaningful on a number of diverse levels, far removed from the more=20 obvious admonitions about greed, deceit and corporate manipulation. = Perhaps, the implications of the piece even portend a future hidden = struggle: one that has been glossed over time and again in Sci-Fi and = movies =96=20 the coming struggle of man and machine, of gene vs. meme, of DNA vs. = code.

But conflicts between people and their technological creations will = likely be=20 far more subtle in the next decade than in the movies. Such as when = (within a=20 very few years) you are able to finally tie-in such things as advanced = VR (voice=20 recognition), to advanced parsing software and = then into "expert=20 system" databases. This small convergence of existing technologies could = displace (almost overnight !!) as many as 10 million telephone = operators,=20 support personnel, order takers, telemarketers, etc. Believe it or not, = this=20 "advance" may hurt a country like India or Ireland more than the = USA.

There was an old business strategy from the dot.bomb days that said = that the=20 successful high-tech company would have a gigantic collection of = reusable=20 prepackaged software code, which would be its "crown jewels," allowing = the=20 company to quickly enter any new niche market. But that strategy = hasn=92t panned=20 out yet. Software developers in the 90's realized that good programming = was more=20 about people and less about code. And that is how it stands now, for the = most=20 part, at the start of a new millennium.

But that dynamic may not survive the next cycle of expansion and = collapse.=20 And there may even be a couple of examples of crown jewels out = there that=20 can be had (from bankruptcy court) for a pittance.

"Some code is so complex and ingenious it can't be repeated. It's the = sort of=20 software Rolf Herken calls deep programming - large, well- maintained,=20 algorithm-heavy systems that draw from many disciplines and are graced = with=20 loyal customers. The collective insight and labor poured into such = undertakings=20 is too vast to be tossed, and, with disciplined upgrades to handle = changing=20 hardware, it doesn't need to be. "Think of a DNA strand. It looks = random, but=20 it's the opposite. It's extremely meaningful. It took billions of years = to build=20 it. Deep programming is the result of that kind of effort.=92 "

Like many who tried to prognosticate the future in the late 90=92s, I = was=20 absolutely convinced back then that the "next big thing (s)" would be = (in order=20 of probability)

  1. Alternative energy, involving a breakthrough in either cold fusion = or the=20 hydrino
  2. RTSC room temperature superconductivity
  3. Voice recognition ( perhaps the future beneficiary of deep=20 programming)

None of these potential block-busters really participated = significantly in=20 the last boom cycle (to my personal economic detriment, as it turns out) = Instead, the internet and genetic engineering got all the glory and did = almost=20 all the damage (with some major successes along the way).

The jury is still out - whether or not any of these embryonic=20 technologies, RTSC, free energy, or VR - or all of them  - perhaps = with=20 genetic "cloning" added to the top of the list - will any of these = be the=20 technological "fuel" which is able to fire up the next big economic = bubble,=20 hopefully soon?

Again, I would like to think it is all of them, and that the = prognosticators=20 of 7 years ago were just 10 years ahead of the curve. But as Mark = Twain so=20 accurately saw it, "Prophesy is a good line of business, but it is full = of=20 risks." 

Jones

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C2C5E5.F91CEBC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 10:32:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28738; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:27:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:27:29 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Excuse me whilst my head explodes... Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:44:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"4j_se.0.p07.GeND-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yup. Saddam Hussein, axis of evil, tortures his own people, mad dictator. So monstrous, we must nuke him off the map. So nefarious, he simply can't be trusted. But hey, he's not SO bad that we can't keep buying MORE oil from him. Got to keep those SUV's rolling... http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,882512,00.html Facing its most chronic shortage in oil stocks for 27 years, the US has this month turned to an unlikely source of help - Iraq. Weeks before a prospective invasion of Iraq, the oil-rich state has doubled its exports of oil to America, helping US refineries cope with a debilitating strike in Venezuela. After the loss of 1.5 million barrels per day of Venezuelan production in December the oil price rocketed, and the scarcity of reserves threatened to do permanent damage to the US oil refinery and transport infrastructure. To keep the pipelines flowing, President Bush stopped adding to the 700m barrel strategic reserve. But ultimately oil giants such as Chevron, Exxon, BP and Shell saved the day by doubling imports from Iraq from 0.5m barrels in November to over 1m barrels per day to solve the problem. Essentially, US importers diverted 0.5m barrels of Iraqi oil per day heading for Europe and Asia to save the American oil infrastructure. The trade, though bizarre given current Pentagon plans to launch around 300 cruise missiles a day on Iraq, is legal under the terms of UN's oil for food programme. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 12:12:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20294; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:09:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:09:09 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Hey Bill B, in case you're wondering where the sudden surge of traffic is coming from... Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:26:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"78vLR3.0.vy4.a7PD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.cruel.com/ Look about 2 entries down... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 12:12:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19588; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:07:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:07:09 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "Vortex" Subject: Re: Excuse me whilst my head explodes... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:06:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA19460 Resent-Message-ID: <"mfmGD1.0.vn4.i5PD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:44:43 -0500: Hi Keith, [snip] >http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,882512,00.html [snip] I think you missed the most critical quote: "It is only the oil majors based in Britain and America - now the leading military hawks - that don't have current access to Iraqi contracts." Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 12:23:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27110; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:20:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:20:17 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A vision of the near future Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:19:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7q4b3vkkldhq6n6282bd5t41s76afjm98t 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA26920 Resent-Message-ID: <"z0fEF3.0.Qd6.1IPD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: US and British forces, having quickly captured the oil fields, but unwilling to go into the cities after the Iraqis, are bogged down maintaining a siege, that drags on for years, with slowly mounting casualties, and a bill that is being footed primarily by the American tax payer. The oil wealth on the other hand is yielding stupendous profits for a select few who control it. In short they win - you lose. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 15:01:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05576; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:56:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:56:52 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:14:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"duX-l1.0.2N1.qaRD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL FROM: GEORGE WALKER BUSH DEAR SIR / MADAM, I AM GEORGE WALKER BUSH, SON OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, AND CURRENTLY SERVING AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THIS LETTER MIGHT SURPRISE YOU BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT MET NEITHER IN PERSON NOR BY CORRESPONDENCE. I CAME TO KNOW OF YOU IN MY SEARCH FOR A RELIABLE AND REPUTABLE PERSON TO HANDLE A VERY CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS TRANSACTION, WHICH INVOLVES THE TRANSFER OF A HUGE SUM OF MONEY TO AN ACCOUNT REQUIRING MAXIMUM CONFIDENCE. I AM WRITING YOU IN ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE PRIMARILY TO SEEK YOUR ASSISTANCE IN ACQUIRING OIL FUNDS THAT ARE PRESENTLY TRAPPED IN THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ. MY PARTNERS AND I SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE IN COMPLETING A TRANSACTION BEGUN BY MY FATHER, WHO HAS LONG BEEN ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN THE EXTRACTION OF PETROLEUM IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND BRAVELY SERVED HIS COUNTRY AS DIRECTOR OF THE UNITED STATES CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY. IN THE DECADE OF THE NINETEEN-EIGHTIES, MY FATHER, THEN VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, SOUGHT TO WORK WITH THE GOOD OFFICES OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ TO REGAIN LOST OIL REVENUE SOURCES IN THE NEIGHBORING ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN. THIS UNSUCCESSFUL VENTURE WAS SOON FOLLOWED BY A FALLING OUT WITH HIS IRAQI PARTNER, WHO SOUGHT TO ACQUIRE ADDITIONAL OIL REVENUE SOURCES IN THE NEIGHBORING EMIRATE OF KUWAIT, A WHOLLY-OWNED U.S.-BRITISH SUBSIDIARY. MY FATHER RE-SECURED THE PETROLEUM ASSETS OF KUWAIT IN 1991 AT A COST OF SIXTY-ONE BILLION U.S. DOLLARS ($61,000,000,000). OUT OF THAT COST. THIRTY-SIX BILLION DOLLARS ($36,000,000,000) WERE SUPPLIED BY HIS PARTNERS IN THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA AND OTHER PERSIAN GULF MONARCHIES, AND SIXTEEN BILLION DOLLARS ($16,000,000,000) BY GERMAN AND JAPANESE PARTNERS. BUT MY FATHER'S FORMER IRAQI BUSINESS PARTNER REMAINED IN CONTROL OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ AND ITS PETROLEUM RESERVES. MY FAMILY IS CALLING FOR YOUR URGENT ASSISTANCE IN FUNDING THE REMOVAL OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ AND ACQUIRING THE PETROLEUM ASSETS OF HIS COUNTRY, AS COMPENSATION FOR THE COSTS OF REMOVING HIM FROM POWER. UNFORTUNATELY, OUR PARTNERS FROM 1991 ARE NOT WILLING TO SHOULDER THE BURDEN OF THIS NEW VENTURE, WHICH IN ITS UPCOMING PHASE MAY COST THE SUM OF 100 BILLION TO 200 BILLION DOLLARS ($100,000,000,000 - $200,000,000,000), BOTH IN THE INITIAL ACQUISITION AND IN LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT. WITHOUT THE FUNDS FROM OUR 1991 PARTNERS, WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ACQUIRE THE OIL REVENUE TRAPPED WITHIN IRAQ. THAT IS WHY MY FAMILY AND OUR COLLEAGUES ARE URGENTLY SEEKING YOUR GRACIOUS ASSISTANCE. OUR DISTINGUISHED COLLEAGUES IN THIS BUSINESS TRANSACTION INCLUDE THE SITTING VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, RICHARD CHENEY, WHO IS AN ORIGINAL PARTNER IN THE IRAQ VENTURE AND FORMER HEAD OF THE ALLIBURTON OIL COMPANY, AND CONDOLEEZA RICE, WHOSE PROFESSIONAL DEDICATION TO THE VENTURE WAS DEMONSTRATED IN THE NAMING OF A CHEVRON OIL TANKER AFTER HER. I WOULD BESEECH YOU TO TRANSFER A SUM EQUALING TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (10-25 %) OF YOUR YEARLY INCOME TO OUR ACCOUNT TO AID IN THIS IMPORTANT VENTURE. THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL FUNCTION AS OUR TRUSTED INTERMEDIARY. I PROPOSE THAT YOU MAKE THIS TRANSFER BEFORE THE FIFTEENTH (15TH) OF THE MONTH OF APRIL. I KNOW THAT A TRANSACTION OF THIS MAGNITUDE WOULD MAKE ANYONE APPREHENSIVE AND WORRIED. BUT I AM ASSURING YOU THAT ALL WILL BE WELL AT THE END OF THE DAY. A BOLD STEP TAKEN SHALL NOT BE REGRETTED, I ASSURE YOU. PLEASE DO BE INFORMED THAT THIS BUSINESS TRANSACTION IS 100% LEGAL. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO CO-OPERATE IN THIS TRANSACTION, PLEASE CONTACT OUR INTERMEDIARY REPRESENTATIVES TO FURTHER DISCUSS THE MATTER. I PRAY THAT YOU UNDERSTAND OUR PLIGHT. MY FAMILY AND OUR COLLEAGUES WILL BE FOREVER GRATEFUL. PLEASE REPLY IN STRICT CONFIDENCE TO THE CONTACT NUMBERS BELOW. SINCERELY WITH WARM REGARDS, GEORGE WALKER BUSH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 15:14:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13598; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:11:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:11:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030127180837.00aea8a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:10:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yn_5D3.0.OK3.8oRD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That's a masterpiece. It sounds EXACTLY the same as a "419" Nigerian Scam letter . . . Because it is the same! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 16:37:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03019; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:35:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:35:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:34:05 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: To: knagel gis.net Cc: vortex Message-id: <000901c2c664$f6ef43a0$0a016ea8 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA02793 Resent-Message-ID: <"CVl_X1.0.pk.b1TD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Perfect!! I'm sending out a copy to everyone on my mailing list and I hope others will do likewise... Not that it will change things very much... doubtful if even shameless bully war-mongers give a rat's ass about supplying the fringe with a fine derisive laugh, now and again ... Jones BTW, 250,000 San Franciscans turned out for an anti-war rally last week...the so-called national free press either didn't report it at all, or like NBS claimed their we're only 50,000...how free is the evening news, really? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 27 17:32:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05166; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:30:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:30:30 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030127172516.00b14da0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:26:04 -0800 To: knagel gis.net From: stevek Subject: Re: IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: Cc: vortex In-Reply-To: <000901c2c664$f6ef43a0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pitaI1.0.ZG1.rqTD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 1/4 Mill...nice to hear....wow.. thats great. I marched in LA a few weeks ago..my estimate was 20,000 At 04:34 PM 1/27/2003 -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >Perfect!! > >I'm sending out a copy to everyone on my mailing list and I hope others >will do likewise... > >Not that it will change things very much... doubtful if even shameless >bully war-mongers give a rat's ass about supplying the fringe with a fine >derisive laugh, now and again ... > >Jones > >BTW, 250,000 San Franciscans turned out for an anti-war rally last >week...the so-called national free press either didn't report it at all, >or like NBS claimed their we're only 50,000...how free is the evening >news, really? Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 00:01:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01537; Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:59:51 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:59:26 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: Resent-Message-ID: <"Qnrdp1.0.wN.sXZD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:10 pm 27-01-03 -0500, you wrote: >That's a masterpiece. > >It sounds EXACTLY the same as a "419" Nigerian Scam letter . . . Because it >is the same! > >- Jed Sorry to have to raise a discordant voice but if you had been, as I have, through the London blitz, the V1 bombing, the V2 fusillade - and gone to school next morning to find your friends leg hanging in a tree by a bomb which demolished a row of houses and blew large holes in the school fence, you might be a bit keener to see bastards like Hitler and Sadaam stopped before they have the capacity to embark on a mad killing spree. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 05:48:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA21960; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 05:46:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 05:46:40 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128084517.00a7f820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:46:42 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED: In-Reply-To: <000901c2c664$f6ef43a0$0a016ea8 cpq> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oPQVC.0.1N5.0deD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Perfect!! > >I'm sending out a copy to everyone on my mailing list and I hope others >will do likewise... You may trigger their anti-spam alarms and accidentally blacklist yourself. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 06:46:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30215; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:44:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:44:28 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128090021.00aa7b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:00:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: N. Y. Times: "Hybrid Cars are Catching On" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wK3wL.0.1O7.BTfD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/28/business/28HYBR.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 06:46:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30234; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:44:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 06:44:28 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128090103.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:33:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Lessons of WWII, Vietnam, future technology In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tM7pp1.0.HO7.CTfD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is politics and off-topic, but I would like to offer a conciliatory message to Frank Grimer, who wrote: >Sorry to have to raise a discordant voice but >if you had been, as I have, through the London >blitz, the V1 bombing, the V2 fusillade - and >gone to school next morning to find your friends >leg hanging in a tree by a bomb which demolished >a row of houses and blew large holes in the school >fence, you might be a bit keener to see bastards >like Hitler and Sadaam stopped before they have >the capacity to embark on a mad killing spree. On the other hand, if you had watched, as I did, years of pointless war in Vietnam, and thousands of Americans killed and wounded in someone else's civil war, you might draw the opposite conclusion. Every generation learns a different lesson from history. Even people from the WWII generation came to different conclusions when confronted by ambiguous, no-win conflicts. My father was sent to Russia to help coordinate lend-lease. He saw the ruins of Leningrad and other cities. But he did not support the war in Vietnam. No one who has read history will deny that Frank has a good point. Some groups in the Middle East, such as Al-Qaeda, have declared war on the U.S., and we must fight back. It is terribly unfortunate that our technology does not allow us to capture these people without a fight, and without killing innocent civilians. Perhaps in the future it will, and we will no longer be compelled to resort to war. The thing about Iraq, as I see it is: The U.S. is emphatically NOT the world's policeman. We sympathize with the Iraqi people and others living under tyranny, but it is not our responsibility to rescue them. They must save themselves. We, and the EU, cannot attack all the dictators in the world, even if we wanted to. By most accounts, Iraq is no worse than Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Nigeria or a dozen other countries. As far as the public knows, Saddam is no threat to the U.S. The public has been shown no evidence he is working on weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or that he has a connection to Al-Qaeda. If he really is a threat, I might favor attacking him. Perhaps, after a war, it may be demonstrated that he was on the verge of developing WMD, and there compelling reason not to reveal the intelligence beforehand, unlike the 1963 Cuban crisis. In that case, I would admit Bush was wise to attack him. We were compelled to attack the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Most people who oppose the upcoming war (including me) fully supported that action. People opposed to this war should not be accused of cowardice or unwillingness to deal with tough, inhuman choices. If Saddam was not worth destroying after the Gulf War when he still had a far larger army, why is it so important now? We could more easily destroy Iraq and other dictators by reducing oil consumption. This would also save hundreds of billions of dollars, instead of costing billions. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 07:12:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13865; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:10:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:10:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:09:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Appeasing evil Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"KY7F-3.0.TO3.LrfD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Frank Grimer posted; > >Sorry to have to raise a discordant voice but >if you had been, as I have, through the London >blitz, the V1 bombing, the V2 fusillade - and >gone to school next morning to find your friends >leg hanging in a tree by a bomb which demolished >a row of houses and blew large holes in the school >fence, you might be a bit keener to see bastards >like Hitler and Sadaam stopped before they have >the capacity to embark on a mad killing spree. > I agree with you Frank. Appeasement of tyrants has never worked in the past. The real problem is confronting human evil. I'm real tired of the bash America first crowd. They hate the country that has given them the freedom to hate it. I concede that we are not perfect, but compared to everything else, we are better. As for the "this is all about oil argument," all of us burn oil. The biggest oil burners are the Hollyweird eliete. They are the biggest America bashers. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 07:46:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03425; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:44:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:44:07 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128101934.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:44:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Appeasing evil, Washington Post: "Not About Oil" In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"WogPd3.0.Gr.7LgD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is getting a little back on topic, I think. Let's talk about energy. Thomas Malloy wrote: >As for the "this is all about oil argument," all of us burn oil. But we could easily burn half as much, or one-tenth as much, if we had been wise enough to develop the technology. Surely this war is about oil in some ways. If Iraq did not have oil, the U.S. would never think of invading it. Many other countries such as Pakistan are accused of developing WMD and harboring the Al-Qaeda, but there is indication the U.S. plans to invade these other countries. (We would be perfectly safe from Pakistan's nuclear weapons for now, since they are too big to smuggle and too far for Pakistan's missiles and airplanes to reach us.) Oil has also paid for Saddam's weapons, and the semi-unofficial Saudi Arabian terrorist campaign against the U.S., paid for by the ambassador's wife among others. On Jan. 24, in the Washing Post T. Lippman wrote an article titled, "It's Not a War for Oil." He makes some interesting points: "First, if the United States felt compelled to increase its access to oil from Iraq, it could do so by getting the U.N. Security Council to lift the economic sanctions that restrict Iraqi output -- no bloodshed necessary. Iraq's oil would flow freely into the global market . . . Then assume the worst in Saudi Arabia: Militant anti-American extremists seize control of the government. Such rulers might refuse to sell oil directly to the American customers, but it's highly unlikely they would refuse to sell oil to anyone, because the country's other sources of income are negligible. Because the worldwide oil flow -- about 67 million barrels a day -- is fungible in a global market, the effect of such a move by Saudi Arabia against the United States would be minimal. . . . Moreover, the record shows that even countries whose rulers are hostile to us are willing to sell us oil because they need the money. . . . Finally, an American takeover of Iraq would not, in the long run, give the United States guaranteed access to Iraqi oil. A democratic Iraq might well decide that its future prosperity would be best served by a supply relationship with, say, China . . ." I think he has some valid points, but overall he is wrong. He forgets that politics and raw military power affect economics. Imagine that in a year or two, the government of Iraq is beholden to the U.S. It stands or falls at our pleasure, protected by our military. It is, in short, a puppet colonial government. Surely, it would be more docile than Iraq's present government! Surely it would act in our best interests -- meaning the best interests of the multinational oil companies. One reason we are not planning to go to war in Saudi Arabia is that the Saudis follow orders, and set oil production and pricing to serve our interests, not their own. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia could easily earn more money from oil, but they would lose U.S. military protection. The common people in the Middle East know this. It is one of the reasons they hate the U.S. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 08:23:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25831; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:20:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:20:01 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128105155.00aa7b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:19:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC "Not About Oil" . . . In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128101934.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> References: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uml8I3.0.XJ6.nsgD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Surely this war is about oil in some ways. If Iraq did not have oil, the >U.S. would never think of invading it. Many other countries such as >Pakistan are accused of developing WMD and harboring the Al-Qaeda, but >there is indication the U.S. plans to invade these other countries. Meant NO indication. Sorry about that. Some administration spokespeople and columnists are saying that once we whip Iraq into shape, the whole of the Middle East will change, tyrants will fall, democracy will rise, and we will not have to invade Iran or any of these other places. This seems unrealistic. Perhaps things will work out well, but no one can predict that with confidence. Things did not work out well in Asia after the U.S. defeated Japan and then fought North Korea and China to a stalemate. The U.S. rescued Kuwait not long ago, but there is no democracy in Kuwait, and much of the population there seems to despise the U.S. Until recently they were planning to impose extreme Islamic laws, with death by stoning for adultery, cutting off hands and feet for theft, and so on. That has been the trend in many Moslem countries. The state government in Kelantan, Malaysia recently imposed these laws. There is enormous support for Bin Laden in many countries. Millions of people are buying t-shirts celebrating his attacks, and naming their children after him. This support did not die down after the quick victory in Afghanistan, and it will not go after another military victory in Iraq. Based on history, in the event of a "victory" in Iraq, a larger backlash against the U.S. is about as likely as increased support for it. Actually, it is difficult to imagine what a "victory" would actually entail, just as it was in Vietnam. If we end up with another "ally" like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, will we better off, or worse off? Except in extreme cases, the U.S. government should not go around invading places. It had to invade Georgia and Virginia in 1864, Japan in 1945, and Afghanistan in 2001. There were overwhelmingly compelling reasons. The survival of the nation was a stake. These were causes worth dying for. There have been few such causes in history. Unless you yourself would be willing to risk death in this war -- or the death of your child -- you should not support the war itself. I will shift this discussion to Vortex-BL if it bothers readers. I apologize for political discussions, but obviously this topic deeply concerns every responsible citizen in the U.S. and the U.K. It is related to energy. More related than the public realizes, I think. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 08:57:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15160; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:54:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:54:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128114946.00aa62d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:54:17 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC a distinguished soldier's opinion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"J7ogc.0.oi3.vMhD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are some quotes from someone who is not a member of the "Bash America" crowd, as Thomas Malloy put it: "The thought of Saddam Hussein with a sophisticated nuclear capability is a frightening thought, okay? Now, having said that, I don't know what intelligence the U.S. government has. And before I can just stand up and say, 'Beyond a shadow of a doubt, we need to invade Iraq,' I guess I would like to have better information." He hasn't seen that yet, and so -- in sharp contrast to the Bush administration -- he supports letting the U.N. weapons inspectors drive the timetable: "I think it is very important for us to wait and see what the inspectors come up with, and hopefully they come up with something conclusive." - Norman Schwarzkopf, commander of the U.S. forces in the 1991 Gulf War. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52450-2003Jan27.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 10:56:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27307; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:52:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:52:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E36D13F.7060206 rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:51:43 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC a distinguished soldier's opinion References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128114946.00aa62d8 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"to69V2.0.bg6.i5jD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here are some quotes from someone who is not a member of the "Bash > America" crowd, as Thomas Malloy put it: > > "The thought of Saddam Hussein with a sophisticated nuclear capability > is a frightening thought, okay? Though not as fearful as the alleged "black pox", a manufactured hybrid between ebola and variola, a real Captain Tripps! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 28 13:42:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08718; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:38:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:38:43 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:39:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A vision of the near future In-Reply-To: <7q4b3vkkldhq6n6282bd5t41s76afjm98t 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EfzG02.0.382.ZXlD-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remember to urge everyone, especially the youth to Register to vote... and then VOTE. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 07:24:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02420; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:22:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128101934.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> References: <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030128101934.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:22:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Appeasing evil, Washington Post: "Not About Oil" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"K6WJq2.0.kb.p6_D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Posted; >The common people in the Middle East know this. It is one of the >reasons they hate the U.S. I just read in interview with a man who was Saddam's childhood friend. He left Iraq when Saddam was the vice president because he found his manner threatening. Most of the people who knew him back then are dead, car accidents and murders. He recounts how Saddam's family respected thievery and violence. There is only one solution to this man, and that is to kill him. He has been using the oil revenues to acquire weapons of mass destruction, and he will use them against us or Israel. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 07:50:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15966; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:47:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:47:27 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:40:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Appeasing evil, Washington Post: "Not About Oil" From: Clifford Gross To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4ZBDL1.0.Ov3.FU_D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: unsubscribe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 07:53:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA19335; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:52:20 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129103604.00af1eb8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:52:22 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Appeasing evil, Washington Post: "Not About Oil" In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030128101934.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> <2.2.32.20030128075926.006a7970 pop.freeserve.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030128101934.00af3c98 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"iVuh11.0.1k4.qY_D-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >There is only one solution to this man, and that is to kill him. That does not follow. Stalin and Mao were far more dangerous, and arguably more evil then Hussein, but it was not necessary to kill them. The policy of containment worked with them, and it will probably work with Hussein. He is 65 and not a good insurance risk. In any case, if he must be killed, the Iraqis should do it. It is not up to us to ensure other people's domestic freedom. If the U.S. or some other outside nation kills him as a matter of policy, simply because he is evil and powerful, that might open a Pandora's box. Millions of people will make Hussein a hero and blame the U.S. Other nations might declare Bush, Blair or some other world leader "evil" and put in motion assassination squads. Third, the U.S. might be called upon to go to war in 10 or 20 or 100 other countries & territories, since there are many evil despots. In 1935, many people considered Huey Long the most dangerous man in the U.S., and an evil person. Many were relieved when he was assassinated. But if a foreign power had stepped in and assassinated him as a favor to the U.S. people, it would have caused an unprecedented brouhaha. Containment is risky, but so is war. It is impossible to say which is more risky. Containment won the cold war and peacefully liberated Russia, without triggering WWIII. There is much to be said for it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 08:45:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13276; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:37:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:37:56 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:30:34 -0600 Subject: From: Clifford Gross To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lfvvr3.0.GF3.aD0E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: unsubscribe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 09:08:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32764; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:05:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:05:55 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129120551.00aeff08 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:05:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More papers on LENR-CANR.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QKkFe3.0.n_7.od0E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Prof. Spallone directed me to a cache of CF papers at the LNF. See: http://www.lnf.infn.it/ On the bottom left see "SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION." Select "Preprints Search," default "Preprints from LNF" and put in the Author = Spalone (or Celani). I have uploaded some of these papers into LENR-CANR.org, unders Celani (the main author). I will upload more later. I have some converted papers by Miles, Case, Lonchampt, Iazzi and McKubre, which I will upload in a hour or two. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 09:09:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32487; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:05:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:05:35 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129120430.00b00c88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:05:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: How to quit Vortex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"q0usR2.0.Sx7.Ud0E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [NOTE: I sent this out before, and accidentally unsubscribed myself.] A message to Clifford Gross, who is trying to unsubscribe: See: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html#sub Send a message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com with "unsubscribe" in the subject line. I note that you first tried to unsubscribe in response to a political message about the war tremors, in a thread that I started. I hope I have not driven you off with politics! Please note that this discussion group seldom goes this far off topic, and it is mainly apolitical. I promise that I will drop the subject, especially if that is what is bothering you. As I said, many people have the jitters; it is hard to get the subject off one's mind. There may be war and possibly a major terrorist attack in response. And it is, ultimately, related to oil and energy. I think Bush said that in his speech last night, when he referred to the "strategically important" Middle East. He is right about that. The U.S. would not be contemplating war if there was no oil. We do not bother harsh dictators in places without oil. I was pleased to hear him talk about AIDS and hydrogen vehicles, by the way -- even more on topic. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 11:01:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16396; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:56:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:56:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129135301.00affc80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:56:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More papers on LENR-CANR.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129120551.00aeff08 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"cGzLl.0.304.SF2E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >On the bottom left see "SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION." Select "Preprints >Search," default "Preprints from LNF" and put in the Author = Spalone (or >Celani). Two Ls: Spallone. New papers this month include ones from: Case, Iazzi, McKubre, Miles, Lonchampt, Sankaranarayanan and Savvatimova, and papers from the University of Illinois, by Miley and Luo. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 12:45:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25152; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:41:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:41:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 07:42:41 +1300 From: RBR Subject: Re: How to quit Vortex To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00a301c2c7d6$934fbb40$9590a7cb vuw.ac.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129120430.00b00c88 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"zMDvO2.0.w86.cn3E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I to nearly hit the unsubscribe button but hope the future postings will be more in tune with the subject matter. kindest regards sun might . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 6:05 AM Subject: How to quit Vortex > [NOTE: I sent this out before, and accidentally unsubscribed myself.] > > A message to Clifford Gross, who is trying to unsubscribe: > > See: > > http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html#sub > > Send a message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com with "unsubscribe" in the > subject line. > > I note that you first tried to unsubscribe in response to a political > message about the war tremors, in a thread that I started. I hope I have > not driven you off with politics! Please note that this discussion group > seldom goes this far off topic, and it is mainly apolitical. I promise that > I will drop the subject, especially if that is what is bothering you. > > As I said, many people have the jitters; it is hard to get the subject off > one's mind. There may be war and possibly a major terrorist attack in > response. And it is, ultimately, related to oil and energy. I think Bush > said that in his speech last night, when he referred to the "strategically > important" Middle East. He is right about that. The U.S. would not be > contemplating war if there was no oil. We do not bother harsh dictators in > places without oil. > > I was pleased to hear him talk about AIDS and hydrogen vehicles, by the way > -- even more on topic. > > - Jed > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/03 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 13:33:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31085; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:28:57 -0800 Message-ID: <20030129212819.99525.qmail web40403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:28:19 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Statistics To: freenrg Cc: Beaty VortexList MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"LoQ2o2.0.Sb7.OU4E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes I hat them too but... I sure would appreciate it if anybody could point me to the following statistical information. Preferably stating back as far as the Nixon Clean Air Act 1974 Fossle fuel consumption / supply lifespan Smog both visible and toxic. Ratio of "Truck miles" to "car miles" (if avaliable) or ratio of trucks to cars. Gloval CO CO2 Suspended hidrocarbons... averages. Thanks... I have some big Texas $$es to kick... ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 14:50:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19747; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:47:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:47:42 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129171430.00b12188 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:47:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Statistics In-Reply-To: <20030129212819.99525.qmail web40403.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6u0aD2.0.Oq4.Ee5E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >Yes I hate them too but... Actually, I am crazy about them. My mother was a statistician at the Census Bureau. She used to bring home thick books full of them when I was a kid, which I spent hours pouring over. One of the great epiphanies of my life was when I was around 10 years old and she took me to see an early computer at the office. The people there put me to work verifying that columns of numbers were added up correctly. John Lienhard wrote: "If you are a baby boomer or older, remember the first time you saw a computer. You felt neither need nor empathy for it. We cannot need what we have never experienced . . ." ("The Engines of Our Ingenuity," p. 126.) He got that way wrong! I was astounded. I understood instantly the importance and potential of the machine, even though the details were beyond me. From that moment I was determined to somehow make a computer or get one for myself. My mother's personal favorite statistical collection was: "U.S. Population Broken Down by Age and Sex." She liked the title, that is. My second great technological epiphany was on March 24, 1989, when I read a short article in the Wall Street Journal. That date needs no explanation here. The words that ran through my mind at that moment came from the Prologue to A. C. Clarke's masterpiece, Childhood's End: "This was the moment when history held its breath, and the present sheared asunder from the past as an iceberg splits from its frozen, parent cliffs, and go sailing out to sea in lonely pride." Getting back to Charles' problem . . . >I sure would appreciate it if anybody could point me to the following >statistical information. Preferably stating back as far as the Nixon >Clean Air Act 1974 > >Fossle fuel consumption / supply lifespan > >Smog both visible and toxic. > >Ratio of "Truck miles" to "car miles" (if avaliable) or >ratio of trucks to cars. > >Global CO CO2 Suspended hidrocarbons... averages. The mother load of all statistics lies in the Federal Government, just as it did in 1964. See, for example: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/index.html http://ntl.bts.gov/ http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/hies97/f/f.htm http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/contents.html http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/historic/hconsumption.htm A non-governmental source: http://www.ef.org Probably the EIA has what you want, but it takes time to find it. There is a huge amount of material and it could be better organized. In some cases you may have to interpolate. They may not list "truck miles" but I believe I did find consumption of fuel by trucks versus cars. This is fairly easy to keep track of because most trucks are diesel and most of them buy fuel at separate facilities that cars do not use. Ah, they do have mileage. See Fig. 32 here (bottom left): http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/ep/motor.html Note that when you click on the figure, the underlying table of detailed data appears. Pretty slick! Look carefully, and you will find stats for each state, too. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 14:56:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25497; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:54:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 14:54:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129175205.00affc80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:54:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Clarke quote again In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129171430.00b12188 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20030129212819.99525.qmail web40403.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"cwpwV2.0.9E6.bk5E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops. Typo. Let me get this right; it is a great quote: Childhood's End prologue, second to last paragraph: This was the moment when history held its breath, and the present sheared asunder from the past as an iceberg splits from its frozen, parent cliffs, and goes sailing out to sea in lonely pride. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 15:10:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA04145; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:07:01 -0800 Message-ID: <20030129230656.60804.qmail web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 23:06:56 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= Subject: WeebleRohr tested today at Santa Monica Ford body shop ... To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ulq9b.0.h01.Lw5E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ... See the WeebleRohr tested today, at: http://unamity.com/WorkShop/Aeroshells !! (click on Success.jpg) Haven't got our air compressor at our shop yet, so visited the Ford Automotice Repair Shop next door. We got 59 degrees Fahrenheit out of the large diameter tube, and 71 degrees Fahrenheit out of the small diameter tube. Was under the impression that the small tube would be the cold outlet, and the large tube the hot outlet! Didn't get a whistle -- so probably need to optimize the tube lengths. And I expect will have to redrill the holes, reshape the vortex chamber in the center, as I know it is off-center and of 'imprecise' geometry! And maybe the flow direction will reverse!! Millennium http://unamity.com/WorkShop ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 29 16:53:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA06431; Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:50:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:50:27 -0800 Message-ID: <20030130004953.25613.qmail web40411.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Statistics To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030129171430.00b12188 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"8hBQZ1.0.Pa1.JR7E-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Jed... That will about do it. :-) Now I am going off pick a fight. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Charles Ford wrote: > > >Yes I hate them too but... > > Actually, I am crazy about them. My mother was a statistician at the > Census > Bureau. She used to bring home thick books full of them when I was a > kid, > which I spent hours pouring over. One of the great epiphanies of my > life > was when I was around 10 years old and she took me to see an early > computer > at the office. The people there put me to work verifying that columns > of > numbers were added up correctly. John Lienhard wrote: "If you are a > baby > boomer or older, remember the first time you saw a computer. You felt > neither need nor empathy for it. We cannot need what we have never > experienced . . ." ("The Engines of Our Ingenuity," p. 126.) He got > that > way wrong! I was astounded. I understood instantly the importance and > potential of the machine, even though the details were beyond me. From > that > moment I was determined to somehow make a computer or get one for > myself. > > My mother's personal favorite statistical collection was: "U.S. > Population > Broken Down by Age and Sex." She liked the title, that is. > > My second great technological epiphany was on March 24, 1989, when I > read a > short article in the Wall Street Journal. That date needs no > explanation > here. The words that ran through my mind at that moment came from the > Prologue to A. C. Clarke's masterpiece, Childhood's End: > > "This was the moment when history held its breath, and the present > sheared > asunder from the past as an iceberg splits from its frozen, parent > cliffs, > and go sailing out to sea in lonely pride." > > Getting back to Charles' problem . . . > > > >I sure would appreciate it if anybody could point me to the following > >statistical information. Preferably stating back as far as the Nixon > >Clean Air Act 1974 > > > >Fossle fuel consumption / supply lifespan > > > >Smog both visible and toxic. > > > >Ratio of "Truck miles" to "car miles" (if avaliable) or > >ratio of trucks to cars. > > > >Global CO CO2 Suspended hidrocarbons... averages. > > The mother load of all statistics lies in the Federal Government, just > as > it did in 1964. See, for example: > > http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/index.html > http://ntl.bts.gov/ > http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/hies97/f/f.htm > http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/contents.html > http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/historic/hconsumption.htm > > A non-governmental source: > > http://www.ef.org > > Probably the EIA has what you want, but it takes time to find it. There > is > a huge amount of material and it could be better organized. In some > cases > you may have to interpolate. They may not list "truck miles" but I > believe > I did find consumption of fuel by trucks versus cars. This is fairly > easy > to keep track of because most trucks are diesel and most of them buy > fuel > at separate facilities that cars do not use. > > Ah, they do have mileage. See Fig. 32 here (bottom left): > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/ep/motor.html > > Note that when you click on the figure, the underlying table of > detailed > data appears. Pretty slick! > > Look carefully, and you will find stats for each state, too. > > - Jed > > ===== Charles Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 30 01:22:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA29721; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:21:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030129230656.60804.qmail web20805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030129230656.60804.qmail web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 03:18:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The whistler tube Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"gwb8r1.0.CG7.CwEE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Millennium Twain posted; > >See the WeebleRohr tested today, at: > I've seen this machines for sale in industrial supply catalogues. I mention this because they should be engineered to optomize the effect. My friend wanted to experiment with the effect when he was in graduate school, chemical engineering. The administration nixed the project because of the noise. Apparently the mechanics of the phenomena are poorly understood. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 30 08:47:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19288; Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:43:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 08:43:17 -0800 Message-ID: <20030130164309.87071.qmail web20801.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:43:09 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= Subject: Re: The whistler tube To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MzLVC.0.Aj4.aOLE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Thomas Malloy wrote; "I've seen these machines for sale in industrial supply catalogues. I mention this because they should be engineered to optomize the effect. My friend wanted to experiment with the effect when he was in graduate school, chemical engineering. The administration nixed the project because of the noise. Apparently the mechanics of the phenomena are poorly understood." _________________________________ It is good to know I can find the WeebleRohr, and Vortex Chamber, in industrial catalogs -- sometime to see what they do. I guess what I am going to do is just keep tweaking this thing, experimenting with the chamber topology, experimenting with the shapes and diameters and lengths of all the parts -- and testing the resonances -- the whistles! Because all I want to do is establish a firm history of pictures, knowledge and experiences in my mind [and for publishing on the web] for really understanding the living dynamic vortex helicoid of nature. And I can then apply that in many ways to the hydrogen scramjet thruster topology, resonance, ignition, throttling etc engineering. Then again, maybe I will take Jean-Luis Naudin's approach -- and design 'ultralight' spaceplanes -- and use the 'in-situ' ionospheric and solar energies for (slow) propulsion to orbit. Until then, I will focus on the whistles! Millennium http://fireships.com ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 06:01:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27219; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 05:59:34 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030131085855.00ac21b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:59:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Bush to fund hot fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2G7-K3.0.9f6.65eE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: $5 billion more down the rat hole. See: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/01/30/fusion.science/index.html I guess this is ITER. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 08:59:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15695; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:55:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:55:45 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030131085855.00ac21b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030131085855.00ac21b0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:55:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Bush to fund hot fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"qpxoP1.0.8r3.GggE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed posted; >$5 billion more down the rat hole. See: A billion, here and a billion there, pretty soon, it runs into some real money! I wonder if I can get the presidents attention long enough to tell him about the Piantelli patent? I'm going to take the matter up with Hugh Hewitt. I'd probably have to convince someone in the DOE, OTOH, perhaps a senator or representative. There is a biological scientist in Texas who refuses to write a letter of recommendation for any student who refuses to swear loyalty to Darwinism! While adaptational evolution can be observed, there is no evidence for inter-species evolution. Where the rubber meets the road is spontaneous biogenesis, which, IMHO, is so ridiculous as to need no further discussion. Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com , had two men on discussion the matter. One was a philosopher who pointed out that the professor was defending scientific orthodoxy. The other man pointed out that if you wanted to write a paper on werewolves, you would get a blunt refusal from any biological scientist, which is appropriate. They both agreed that what the professor is doing is wrong. I'd like to see him sued, and then forced into compliance or terminated. I gave up listening to Some Things Considered from National People's Radio, in favor of Hewitt, if he's not on in you area, you can listen to him on the Internet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 10:13:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32177; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:10:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:10:19 -0800 From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr Message-ID: <3E3ABC06.BBDD7A66 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:10:14 +0200 Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bush to fund hot fusion References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030131085855.00ac21b0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T7G1n2.0.cs7.AmhE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rat hole but, it save empires of World based on oil. Practical solution, wise strategy :( Jed Rothwell wrote: > > $5 billion more down the rat hole. See: > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/01/30/fusion.science/index.html > > I guess this is ITER. > > - Jed ITER ? hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 11:11:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02484; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:08:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:08:39 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030131135847.00afe728 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:08:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bush to fund hot fusion In-Reply-To: <3E3ABC06.BBDD7A66 verisoft.com.tr> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030131085855.00ac21b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JyQRz2.0.kc.tciE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hamdi ucar asks: >ITER ? Do you? I ture too! ITER stands for International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor. Stephen O. Dean, Fusion Power Associates, reported: "The United States will rejoin the ITER project, from which it withdrew in 1998. ITER, the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, is designed to produce about 500 Megawatts of thermal fusion power in pulses lasting about 10 minutes, with the potential for later upgrades to continuous power production. . . ." Bush called ITER "an ambitious international research project." See: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030130-18.html http://fire.pppl.gov/iter_us_bush_jan03%20.pdf http://www.energy.gov/HQDocs/speeches/hqspeeches.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 13:45:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16754; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:43:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:43:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3AEF01.BA2F8290 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:47:45 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 30 Jan 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"L0acm3.0.O54.gtkE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 30 Jan 03 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:08:12 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 30 Jan 03 Washington, DC 1. FREEDOM FUEL: CLIMBING MOUNT IMPROBABLE. In his State of the Union address on Tuesday, President Bush ranked promoting "energy independence while dramatically improving the environment" as one of his top goals. In addition to "clear skies" legislation that would mandate a 70% cut in air pollution from power plants over 15 years, Bush proposed $1.2B in research funding for the Freedom Car "powered by hydrogen and pollution free." But where will the hydrogen come from? 95% of the hydrogen currently produced in the U.S. comes from steam methane reforming, a catalytic process that also produces copious quantities of CO2. No green points there. What about electrolysis? It's not as efficient, but the only bi-product is oxygen. Oops, 65% of our electric power is generated by burning fossil fuel; no green points there either. Hydroelectric dams are being torn down to save the rivers, and other renewables are not up to it. Turn to nuclear? Whoa! The public is terrified by nuclear fission. But what about fusion? 2. ITER: SPENCER ABRAHAM DISCOVERS A HYDROGEN WELL. In a speech yesterday at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, Secretary of Energy Abraham officially announced that President Bush has decided the United States will join negotiations on ITER. It's not like we haven't been there before (WN 2 Oct 98). "Fusion power," the Secretary said, "produces no troublesome emissions, it is safe, and has few, if any, proliferation concerns. It creates no long-term waste problems and runs on fuel readily available to all nations. Moreover, fusion plants could produce hydrogen...our ultimate freedom fuel...to power hundreds of millions of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the U.S. and abroad." In short, it's the greenest program of them all. And better yet, fusion is nowhere near working. Detroit can go right on making humongous gas-guzzling SUVs, while building a couple of fuel-cell concept cars on government grants as a hedge, just in case we have a breakthrough in fusion. Meanwhile, the President gets to wear green. All this for a measly $1.2B spread over five years. 3. PATENT NONSENSE: SIPHON HYDROELECTRIC GENERATOR. If fusion doesn't work, maybe DOE should look into U.S. Patent 6,359,347 issued a year ago. The idea is to use siphons to raise water up to a level from which it can operate a turbine driven generator. Recognizing that it's difficult to siphon water up, the inventor uses a series of siphons to raise it just a little bit at a time. 4. "BIOSHIELD? WHAT'S A BIOSHIELD?" PEOPLE ASKED. In his speech, the President said Project Bioshield would "guard us against bio- terrorism," but no one explained what a bioshield is. Speculation ranged from transparent domes to deodorant soap. We even called the new Department of Homeland Security...they never heard of it. In fact, it's a plan whereby the government will serve as a guaranteed customer to encourage companies to develop vaccines against potential terrorist bio-agents. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN. You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 15:08:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08947; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:05:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:05:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3B0111.9B034EFB att.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:04:52 -0500 From: == WWWqWWW == Thunderbird X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cross post from hydrino (Hydrino Study Group) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Js3Kz2.0.iB2.s4mE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hydrino/message/5210 Guys, Actually producing useable electricity has been a major stumbling block for Randy and BlackLight Power. Someone else may just beat him out on that particular application. [info on how to access what was announced just last night -- It should be worth 7 bucks for a one month trial -- subscribe to www.CoastToCoastAM.com to get online replay of some 60 past programs plus the next month of programs. That's what I paid. (RealPlayer and WindowsMediaPlayer without commercials)] On the 30 January, 2003 show (segments 2 and 4 of the program) Dr Stephen Greer announced that he had finally seen a 'free energy source' demonstration that met his criteria. He was making a preliminary announcement to protect the inventor, others, and the invention. He is also concerned about protecting the intellectual property rights so that this will not 'disappear'. Greer is noted for his 'Disclosure Project' Press Conference in May of 2001. And, of course, his on-going efforts. http://www.disclosureproject.org/ I have followed Dr Greer for as long as I have followed HSG. He has been very transparent and I have never heard him say anything that I have found to be in error. In fact, the whole Disclosure Project is all about transparency. This is a MOST unusual move for him to make and he points to that in order to show how important he feels this technology is. It was a sudden last minute addition to the planned program. I won't try to recap his 30 minutes. This one segment, by itself, is worth informing yourself about. But you should also find other programs to be of interest if you decide to 'risk' your seven dollars for 200 hours of online, commercial free streaming audio. This is very timely. Take it for what it is worth. Greg Salyards "Selection by consequences." B. F. Skinner http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 16:57:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00648; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:55:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:55:51 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cross post from hydrino (Hydrino Study Group) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 11:55:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3E3B0111.9B034EFB att.net> In-Reply-To: <3E3B0111.9B034EFB att.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA00573 Resent-Message-ID: <"SPxqu3.0.z9.MinE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to == WWWqWWW == Thunderbird's message of Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:04:52 -0500: Hi, [snip] >[info on how to access what was announced just last night -- [snip] You can hear this for free at http://www.netro.ca/asxfiles/disclosure/coasttocoast1_31_2003.asx. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 18:30:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02708; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:28:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:28:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3B30A7.7F090F35 att.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:27:52 -0500 From: == WWWqWWW == Thunderbird X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Cross post from hydrino (Hydrino Study Group) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mN3iT2.0.Dg._2pE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hydrino/message/5210 Guys, Actually producing useable electricity has been a major stumbling block for Randy Mills and BlackLight Power. Someone else may just beat him out on that particular application. [info on how to access what was announced just last night -- It should be worth 7 bucks for a one month trial -- subscribe to www.CoastToCoastAM.com to get online replay of some 60 past programs plus the next month of programs. That's what I paid. (RealPlayer and WindowsMediaPlayer without commercials)] On the 30 January, 2003 show (segments 2 and 4 of that program) Dr Stephen Greer announced that he had finally seen a 'free energy source' demonstration that met his criteria. He was making a preliminary announcement to protect the inventor, others, and the invention. He is also concerned about protecting the intellectual property rights so that this will not 'disappear'. Greer is noted for his 'Disclosure Project' Press Conference in May of 2001. And, of course, his on-going efforts. http://www.disclosureproject.org/ I have followed Dr Greer for as long as I have followed HSG. He has been very transparent and I have never heard him say anything that I have found to be in error. In fact, the whole Disclosure Project is all about transparency. This is a MOST unusual move for him to make and he points to that in order to show how important he feels this technology is. It was a sudden last minute addition to the planned program. You really need to listen to his announcement and observations. He is a medical doctor but he has a board and technical advisers for support. http://www.seaspower.com/technicaladvisors.htm http://www.seaspower.com/ I won't try to recap his 35 minutes. This one segment, by itself, is worth informing yourself about. But you might also find other programs to be of interest if you decide to 'risk' your seven dollars for 200 hours of online, commercial free streaming audio. This is very timely. Take it for what it is worth. [Here is a Windows Media Player link for that interview that I just found on the Company's website --- http://www.netro.ca/asxfiles/disclosure/coasttocoast1_31_2003.asx ] Greg Salyards "Selection by consequences." B. F. Skinner http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 31 19:34:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07394; Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:33:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:33:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3E3B3FE1.F18F4E8 att.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:32:50 -0500 From: == WWWqWWW == Thunderbird X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cross post from hydrino (Hydrino Study Group) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kbZ7R3.0.Kp1.w_pE-" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/48882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hydrino/message/5210 Guys, Actually producing useable electricity has been a major stumbling block for Randy Mills and BlackLight Power. Someone else may just beat him out on that particular application. [info on how to access what was announced just last night -- It should be worth 7 bucks for a one month trial -- subscribe to www.CoastToCoastAM.com to get online replay of some 60 past programs plus the next month of programs. That's what I paid. (RealPlayer and WindowsMediaPlayer without commercials)] On the 30 January, 2003 show (segments 2 and 4 of that program) Dr Stephen Greer announced that he had finally seen a 'free energy source' demonstration that met his criteria. He was making a preliminary announcement to protect the inventor, others, and the invention. He is also concerned about protecting the intellectual property rights so that this will not 'disappear'. Greer is noted for his 'Disclosure Project' Press Conference in May of 2001. And, of course, his on-going efforts. http://www.disclosureproject.org/ I have followed Dr Greer for as long as I have followed HSG. He has been very transparent and I have never heard him say anything that I have found to be in error. In fact, the whole Disclosure Project is all about transparency. This is a MOST unusual move for him to make and he points to that in order to show how important he feels this technology is. It was a sudden last minute addition to the planned program. You really need to listen to his announcement and observations. He is a medical doctor but he has a board and technical advisers for support. http://www.seaspower.com/technicaladvisors.htm http://www.seaspower.com/ I won't try to recap his 35 minutes. This one segment, by itself, is worth informing yourself about. But you might also find other programs to be of interest if you decide to 'risk' your seven dollars for 200 hours of online, commercial free streaming audio. This is very timely. Take it for what it is worth. [Here is a Windows Media Player link for that interview that I just found on the Company's website --- http://www.netro.ca/asxfiles/disclosure/coasttocoast1_31_2003.asx ] Greg Salyards "Selection by consequences." B. F. Skinner http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/