From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  1 08:26:41 2003
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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:24:44 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Bush to fund hot fusion
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>hamdi ucar asks:
>
>>ITER ?
>
>Do you? I ture too!

And Jed responded;

>
>ITER stands for International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor.
>
>Stephen O. Dean, Fusion Power Associates, reported: "The United 
>States will rejoin the ITER project, from which it withdrew in 1998. 
>ITER, the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, is 
>designed to produce about 500 Megawatts of thermal fusion power in 
>pulses lasting about 10 minutes, with the potential for later 
>upgrades
>to continuous power production. . . ."
>
>Bush called ITER "an ambitious international research project."
>

The last I heard, the best plasma fusion reactors were operating at 
85% of unity. Do any of you people know anything different?

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RENSE.COM


                      Entirely New Kind
                  Of Generator Invented
                                            1-26-3

TASHKENT, Uzbekistan (UPI) -- An Uzbek inventor said he has created a 
type of electrical generator that does not rely on the principle of 
electromagnetic induction -- on which all existing generators are 
based.

The new generator employs a concept called magnetic conductivity 
modulation and it has potential applications in industry, 
communications, households and even the military, explained Vladimir 
Matveev, the inventor, a specialist in electronics.

Matveev said he is convinced he has created a fundamentally different machine.

"All electrical machines I know are based on the principle of 
interaction between the magnetic fluxes (lines of force) of their 
rotor (rotating member) and stator (portion that remains fixed)," he 
explained.

Such machines, Matveev said, are based on electromagnetic induction, 
a property of energy discovered by Michael Faraday, an English 
physicist and chemist, in the 19th century. The machines produce 
electrical current either by moving a conductor across a magnetic 
field or by regulating the flux of that field.

"My machine has a principal difference," Matveev told United Press 
International. "The magnetic field of its stator does not interact 
with the magnetic field of the rotor (because) its rotor is not a 
magnet -- the rotor only changes the magnetic resistance of the 
stator," he said.

The stator in Matveev's generator contains a magnetic core with a 
permanent magnet and a detachable winding. A rotor with changeable 
magnetic resistance is placed at a cutoff point in the core's 
magnetic field. It is composed of alternating magnetic and air parts 
and can operate in either linear or rotary form.

When the rotor is set in motion, its alternating components pass 
through the magnetic core's cutoff point. When the magnetic part 
passes through the cutoff point its magnetic resistance decreases. 
When the air part passes through, its resistance increases.

This pulsing of resistance results in changing the magnetic 
conductivity of the magnetic core, which in turn produces an 
alternating electrical current in the core's winding. The frequency 
of the winding's current can be controlled by regulating the rotor's 
speed or by changing certain qualities of its magnetic or air parts. 
Also, the generator's electrical output -- its voltage -- can be 
controlled by changing the configuration of the rotor's components, 
Matveev explained.

Matveev said his generator is different from an invention by Howard 
Johnson of the United States. Johnson discovered how to build motors 
that can run without input of electricity or any other kind of 
external energy. He obtained a patent in 1973 for describing 
electrical generation using only the energy contained in the atoms of 
permanent magnets.

Matveev also said some Russian inventors have experimented with a 
generator similar to his. Their generator changes its magnetic 
conductivity by changing temperature. However, the machine requires a 
lot of time to be heated and cooled alternately and results in a 
current frequency much lower than what generally is used in industry. 
Moreover, the Russian generator requires high steel density and 
greater mass.

Matveev's machine generates electric energy of industrial frequency. 
Furthermore, he said his machine is simple, reliable and requires 
less steel and mass than conventional generators. It also can be 
adapted to flows of low speeds, such as weak water or wind streams. 
Matveev tested the generator in his former household in Kazakhstan 
before he patented it in Uzbekistan.

"I want to pass the invention on to all mankind," he said.

Boris Abdurakhmanov, director of the Uzbek Koinot (Cosmos) design 
office and head of the laboratory of semiconductors and 
photoelectricity of the Institute of Electronics of the Uzbek Academy 
of Sciences, told UPI: "Matveev has offered a fundamentally new 
approach to a problem of the creation of electric power generators."

Copyright 2003 by United Press International.

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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 07:52:52 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cross post from hydrino (Hydrino Study Group)
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At 11:55 AM 2/1/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:


>[snip]
>You can hear this for free at
>http://www.netro.ca/asxfiles/disclosure/coasttocoast1_31_2003.asx.


Thanks for this info.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  1 09:13:51 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: An Energy Legacy Plan
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I had pretty much given up on this, but based on the recent Bush
administration energy funding decisions I think it is looking better and
better by comparison...

                   AN ENERGY LEGACY PLAN

                      Horace Heffner

THE PROBLEM

This plan is an attempt to change the legacy we have left for future
generations.  This plan is about energy, about finding a practical and
comparatively painless means to meet growing energy needs with renewable
resources.  It is an attempt to make at least some aspect of this
generation's energy legacy positive.

In recent years there has been continuous significant and heated debate of
problematic and energy related issues including global warming, energy
conservation, energy resource depletion, the economics of tax reduction vs
energy subsidies, energy as a war related factor, disposal of nuclear
waste, the funding of energy research, and the environmental impacts of
energy exploration, production, and use.  The debate and problems have been
so broad as to demand continuous media, political and academic attention.
These and the many associated issues are too broad and controversial for
discussion here.

It is, however, a simple mathematical fact that to sustain 5 percent or
more annual growth in oil consumption that, even if a 10,000 year supply,
at our present rate of consumption, is found, we will consume it in the
lifetimes of the next few generations due to the rate of consumption
growth.  It follows rigorously that we can not satisfy our exponential
economic and energy consumption growth with a supply side nonrenewable
energy attack.  This was aptly shown by Professor Evar D. Nering in a June
4, 2001 New York Times Op-Ed article.  (See
<http://www.mtn.org/iasa/mirage.html>)

It is also reasonable that a means to obtain large affordable amounts of
renewable energy should be helpful to society in all energy related problem
areas.  However, a means to achieve renewable energy development at a
sufficient rate has been somewhat elusive.  It is the intent here to help
solve that problem, and to eventually fund energy conservation measures
that ultimately will be necessary to sustain our civilization.  This is the
intended legacy, a permanently self-funded trust for renewable energy
development and conservation.


A SIMPLE PLAN

A plan is proposed here, which, compared to the problematic issues
addressed, is very simple indeed.  The following plan, in 9 parts, is hoped
to result in a significant and permanent reduction in energy problems.

1) Form a separate government agency, a Renewable Energy Agency, dedicated
solely to fostering the use of renewable energy, and give it the capability
to administer this plan.  It should be a stand-alone agency, but, if that
is not politically feasible, it should be at minimum independent of NSF,
NASA, DOE, NREL and the national laboratories, as these agencies could be
potential bidders and significant benefactors of the plan.

Eventually support this Renewable Energy Agency using only a perpetual
Renewable Energy Permanent Fund plus agency revenues.  A small seed funding
need be provided until sufficient energy taxes can be raised to obtain the
desired operations budget.  It is the goal of the agency to achieve and
maintain self-sufficiency, to create renewable energy production assets,
and eventually to achieve a sufficient revenue stream to fund energy
conservation measures.  The agency should be operated with as much
independence from direct management involvement of the administrative and
legislative branches of government as possible.  When financially
independent, and maybe sooner, the agency should become a private
non-profit corporation, a trust, with special legislated benefits and
duties.

One goal of the proposed agency or trust is to achieve financial
independence within 20 years.  Perhaps making the agency a private trust
can be done immediately, but there may be advantages to the USA in having
the entity be a government agency, due to the likely involvement of
international relations and international deals.  Foreign bidding and
investment could simply be excluded, though this is less than optimum from
a world view, and may even violate existing treaties. Still, in that the
plan is based on profit, competition, and privatization, it logically could
be implemented by a private trust.  Such a trust might be useful in
preventing the temptation of future legislators to raid the fund balance.
Some creative legislating would clearly benefit this plan.

2) Tax non-renewable energy like oil, gas and coal, enough to generate at
least 3 billion dollars a year for the renewable energy fund, about a
dollar per person per month.  Rebate commercial transportation energy use
in order to avoid a significant burden in that sector of the economy.  The
total net income from this tax is called here the annual tax income.

3) On an annual basis, based upon competitive proposals, distribute 5
percent of the agency's total prior year's annual income to research, using
about 0.5 percent, 1/10 of the 5 percent, to support research in
non-conventional, controversial, or long term development areas, like zero
point energy (ZPE) research, low energy nuclear reactions (LENR), hydrinos,
etc.  The non-conventional research program is intended to be modeled after
NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program.  However, it is reasonable
to commit up to half of the 0.5 percent to infrastructure development for
amateurs, small collaborations, and small businesses working in related
areas.  Such infrastructure might include lending libraries, instruction,
consultation, laboratory or shop facilities located about the country,
and/or for am energy device test or concept verification center.  Any
research funds not dispersed by the end of a physical year are deposited
into the permanent fund.

Proposal cycles for research might be quarterly rather than annually, with
special projects being awarded on an as desired basis from any remaining
non awarded research funds or for some fixed percentage of the research
funding.  On average, research projects should receive less than 0.5
percent of the annual research budget, and no research project should
receive more than 5 percent of the annual research budget.

4) On an annual basis, based upon competitive proposals, distribute 5
percent of the agency's total prior year's annual income to follow-on
prototype development, pilot projects, or small yet novel projects, with
emphasis on those designed to produce a billable product.  Proposal cycles
for this could be similar to research awards, but probably less often due
to the expected lower number of grants due to the fact bidders in this
category would likely have had successful research awards.

5) On an annual basis, based upon competitive proposals, distribute 75
percent of the agency's total prior year's annual income to projects that
will produce energy that can be sold at a profit.  Awards to be based on
best 10 year return on investment, as proposed by the bidders and adjusted
as desired by the proposal reviewers when there is cause.  A critical
requirement is sufficient profitability to meet the goals of the plan,
including sustained self-sufficiency.

In years of operation subsequent to construction, successful proposers can
use or reserve up to 40 percent of annual revenues (operating income) from
their project for operation and maintenance, including land, insurance,
property taxes, etc., and may apply any balance remaining from that 40
percent to expansion of their proposed facilities on a cost plus basis.
There might be considerably different proposals made and accepted, but this
is the basis of the numbers used in this plan.

It may be questionable as to the feasibility of the  suggested numbers.
However, a hopeful project energy source is wind energy, the cost of which
has dropped 90 percent in the last 20 years.  Wind projects currently are
designed to last 10 to 30 years.  The suggested numbers appear to be
feasible even presently for wind projects of 50 MW or better.  In any case,
annual adjustments to plan percentages are part of the plan itself, and may
require tailoring depending on the energy source.

The balance of energy sales income, in the aggregate from all projects,
called the annual energy sales income, is treated as annual income to the
agency.  At the end of the year any non-awarded funds are deposited into
the renewable energy permanent fund described below.  The requests for
proposals should be in large, medium and small categories, with minimum and
maximum funding amounts in each category, with roughly equal funding to
each category.  In the event of no or insufficient acceptable bids in a
category in a year, the balance of funds for that category for that year
are to be placed in the permanent fund.

6) Reserve 5 percent of the agency's total prior year's annual income for
maintenance of or disposal of abandoned facilities, and emergency expenses.
This fund is managed separately from all others.

7) Reserve 10 percent of the agency's total prior year's annual income for
depositing into a permanent fund for renewable energy development, the
Renewable Energy Permanent Fund.   The "total prior year's income" used
throughout the plan is the prior year's sum of tax income, annual energy
sales income, and permanent fund interest income after inflation proofing
deductions.  If the emergency fund balance becomes excessive to needs, a
portion may be rolled into the Renewable Energy Permanent Fund.  Oversight
of the fund management should be by an independent board in a manner
consistent with the management of trusts.  The board is expected to
contract all or portions of the fund management on a periodic basis, but no
more than 25 percent of the fund management should be awarded to a single
bidder.  The permanent fund goal is to make at least 5 percent interest
after inflation proofing deductions.  This is difficult but the chances for
success are enhanced by suggested financial leverage mechanisms which are
part of this plan.

Any contributions to the fund should be, at minimum, tax deductible, but
preferably encouraged by further incentives.  Investment leverage should be
achieved by award of tax free green investment bonds.  One income producing
element should be green loans for financing of energy efficient housing
construction or business building construction, or for home or business
energy efficiency  improvements.  Achieving the combined housing and
business finance goals might be achieved via a single subordinate housing
entity similar to existing home finance entities, with such an entity
having bond holders and equity holders, in addition to the permanent fund
equity itself, each earning their corresponding returns on investments.  If
a Cap and Trade System for greenhouse gas credit trading is implemented in
the US, then income from greenhouse gas credits earned from plan projects
should be treated as fund income.

8) Annually adjust the plan percentages and other agency operating
parameters as required, consistent with prior commitments, changing
legislation, regulations and economic conditions, and with the long term
goals of the agency.

9) At the end of 10 years of operation, or sooner if it is desirable to the
agency and the facility in question is is abandoned, place project
facilities into the private domain.  This is called here "project
disposal".  Project disposal is by sale to proposer at an appraised value
less an incentive percentage of 10 to 20 percent specified in the proposal.
If that is not agreeable, sale is then by auction, but with the proposer
retaining his incentive percentage as a bidding advantage.  Net proceeds
are deposited into the Renewable Energy Permanent Fund.  Abandoned property
may be operated by the agency or the agency may choose to put the operation
out to bid using the bid parameters of its choosing.  If a project can not
achieve the proposed revenue for the 10 year operating period, including
disposal income, then the operating period may be extended at the choice of
the agency, until the proposed total return can be achieved.

It is a goal of the plan that the agency can become self funding within 20
years.  It is further hoped that the large and comparatively risk-free sums
available for energy systems design and construction can garner serious
attention from big high-tech companies or even some government agencies,
like the national laboratories or NASA. Special legislation might be
required to permit such agencies to compete commercially or to partner with
commercial competitors in this limited arena.

At some distant point the fund may have an extreme excess of earnings after
inflation proofing, and at that point it is reasonable to consider applying
some or all of those excess funds to incentives for or funding for energy
conservation programs.


A PRELIMINARY LOOK AT SOME NUMBERS

Below is a first rough cut at some 40 year numbers, inflation ignored.
Here excise taxes remain in effect for a full 20 years, then are
eliminated.  The fund runs on its own revenue after that.  Average payback
time for the projects to achieve this is about 13 years.  This is very
reasonable if the cost of energy rises significantly above inflation over
the 20 year period, or the cost of renewable energy production continues to
drop as it has for wind power.  At the end of 20 years the fund is
self-sustaining, even excluding consideration of prototype sales revenue,
intellectual property rights revenue, and possible creation of lynch pin
technologies. Also excluded is any project revenue growth due to the 40
percent of sales dedicated to the proposers, which can at their discretion
be used to grow their projects.  Below, project disposal in the 40 year
estimate occurs 10 years after a project is initiated.  However, in
practice the period might be varied significantly, possibly at the request
of proposers, or at the agency's discretion.  The full value awarded to the
project is deducted from the Total Project Amount, while only 50 percent of
that is assumed recovered from the property disposal.  That 50 percent
recovery amount is placed into the Renewable Energy Permanent Fund balance.



                                Total   Fund    Maint. &
        Taxes   Sales   Int.    Income  Bal.    Disposal
Year    (M$)    (M$)    (M$)    (M$)    End Yr. (M$)

1       3,000   0       0       3,000   3,000   0
2       3,000   0       150     3,150   4,500   150
3       3,000   55      225     3,280   6,048   158
4       3,000   114     302     3,416   7,660   164
5       3,000   174     383     3,557   9,338   171
6       3,000   237     467     3,704   10,908  178
7       3,000   311     545     3,856   12,357  185
8       3,000   397     618     4,014   13,671  193
9       3,000   494     684     4,178   14,839  201
10      3,000   606     742     4,348   15,844  209
11      3,000   731     792     4,523   16,671  217
12      3,000   871     834     4,705   17,906  226
13      3,000   973     895     4,868   19,169  235
14      3,000   1,077   958     5,036   20,480  243
15      3,000   1,185   1,024   5,209   21,840  252
16      3,000   1,296   1,092   5,388   23,340  260
17      3,000   1,403   1,167   5,570   24,987  269
18      3,000   1,504   1,249   5,753   26,788  278
19      3,000   1,599   1,339   5,938   28,752  288
20      3,000   1,687   1,438   6,124   30,890  297
21      0       1,767   1,545   3,312   30,211  306
22      0       1,839   1,511   3,349   32,276  166
23      0       1,797   1,614   3,410   34,437  167
24      0       1,750   1,722   3,472   36,664  171
25      0       1,699   1,833   3,533   38,961  174
26      0       1,645   1,948   3,593   41,328  177
27      0       1,587   2,066   3,654   43,769  180
28      0       1,525   2,188   3,713   46,283  183
29      0       1,459   2,314   3,773   48,871  186
30      0       1,388   2,444   3,832   51,534  189
31      0       1,313   2,577   3,890   54,272  192
32      0       1,234   2,714   3,947   55,960  194
33      0       1,254   2,798   4,052   57,715  197
34      0       1,274   2,886   4,160   59,508  203
35      0       1,297   2,975   4,272   61,337  208
36      0       1,320   3,067   4,387   63,205  214
37      0       1,346   3,160   4,506   65,110  219
38      0       1,374   3,255   4,629   67,053  225
39      0       1,403   3,353   4,756   69,035  231
40      0       1,435   3,452   4,886   71,056  238



Resrch                  Total
and     Project Not     Project Project
Pilot   Awards  Awarded Amount  Dispos.
(M$)    (M$)    (M$)    (M$)    (M$)    Year

0       0       3,000   0       0       1
300     1,200   1,050   1,200   0       2
315     1,260   1,103   2,460   0       3
328     1,312   1,148   3,772   0       4
342     1,366   1,196   5,139   0       5
356     1,601   1,067   6,739   0       6
370     1,852   926     8,591   0       7
386     2,121   771     10,712  0       8
401     2,409   602     13,121  0       9
418     2,716   418     15,837  0       10
435     3,043   217     18,880  0       11
452     3,392   0       21,072  600     12
470     3,529   0       23,341  630     13
487     3,651   0       25,680  656     14
504     3,777   0       28,090  683     15
521     3,907   0       30,396  800     16
539     4,041   0       32,586  926     17
557     4,177   0       34,642  1,061   18
575     4,315   0       36,548  1,204   19
594     4,454   0       38,286  1,358   20
612     4,593   0       39,836  1,522   21
331     2,484   0       38,928  1,696   22
335     2,512   0       37,911  1,764   23
341     2,558   0       36,818  1,825   24
347     2,604   0       35,645  1,888   25
353     2,649   0       34,387  1,953   26
359     2,695   0       33,041  2,021   27
365     2,740   0       31,603  2,089   28
371     2,785   0       30,074  2,157   29
377     2,830   0       28,449  2,227   30
383     2,874   0       26,730  2,297   31
389     2,917   0       27,163  1,242   32
395     2,960   0       27,612  1,256   33
405     3,039   0       28,093  1,279   34
416     3,120   0       28,609  1,302   35
427     3,204   0       29,164  1,325   36
439     3,290   0       29,759  1,347   37
451     3,380   0       30,399  1,370   38
463     3,472   0       31,086  1,393   39
476     3,567   0       31,823  1,415   40


Cost/benefit at 40 year planning horizon:

Total Fund Balance              71,056
Total Research and Pilots       16,386
Total Current Projects          31,823
Total Sold Project Value        41,286
                            ==========
       Total benefit           160,551

        Total tax cost          60,000

       Cost/Benefit            0.37371


Such a plan could should not be considered a business plan in that the
energy generation is initially subsidized.  Additional utility type
regulation, both for project proposal winners and for utilities in general
may be required to avoid abuses.  It is intended, however, that the
financial incentives to the proposers be significant and that those awarded
grants be extremely profitable, almost to the extent of a windfall, and
that performance after initial construction be comparatively risk free.

If agency profitability goals are not met, the most likely down side
scenario is that the excise taxes need continue longer, and that may not be
such a bad thing in that event, in that the abuse of energy is discouraged.
If foreign bidders or projects are to be allowed, this perhaps should be
via a separate entity or agency, as the expected quantified benefits to the
taxpayer will not be forthcoming.  However, the plan might easily be
adopted by foreign entities, or cooperative agreements reached.

The disruption to research and pilot funding at year 20 can be smoothed
over using a separate long term fund for that purpose.

This plan is not intended to interfere with other energy related policies
and legislation, like the Renewable Portfolio Standards (RPS), state
renewable energy  funds, buy down programs, tax incentives, a Cap and Trade
System for greenhouse gas credit trading, etc., but rather it is intended
that all these things mutually dovetail and benefit each other.  However,
technological developments from programs like the Big Three U.S.
automakers' FreedomCAR Program to develop hydrogen-based cars, or major
fuel cell programs, could have a dramatic and positive effect on the
success of any renewable energy program, though possibly not sooner than 10
years.  The principle missing technology is hydrogen storage, which now has
a potential to be provided using carbon nano-tube storage media.  Though
the planning horizon for hydrogen is long, it still may be useful to give
special weight to projects which produce hydrogen, and to support hydrogen
storage, generation, transportation, and fuel cell research.  Similar
consideration may be warranted for methods of methane production from
atmospheric carbon using renewable sources.  If wind energy costs continue
to decline as in the past 20 years, hydrogen or methane producing wind
farms should be cost beneficial within 10 years.  This makes feasible many
additional locations for major wind energy generation, like Alaska.  With
sufficient research and appropriate legislation, Alaska alone has the
potential to provide the US energy growth needs for generations, though it
may take a commitment similar to that of going to the moon to realize it.

The principle objection to this legacy plan seems to be ideological, the
notion that government can not do anything competently.  The principle role
of the agency as defined by this plan is generating requests for proposals
and performing contract and fund management.  This is a role at which
government agencies have significant proven abilities.  We went to the moon
using many components supplied by the lowest qualified bidders.  Those who
say this kind of thing can not be done will ultimately have to confront the
fact it can.

This plan has a somewhat surprising resiliency to change.  The final
numbers change comparatively little with various significantly changing
scenarios. However, it does benefit significantly if the price of energy
soars.  The corresponding negative damage due to a downturn in price is
somewhat reduced due to the fact the RFP evaluation is based on
profitability, and therefore money that might have gone into projects,
during low energy cost times, goes directly into the permanent fund, thus
positively affecting later years.

US oil consumption in 2000 was about 7.2 billion barrels.  If the entire 3
billion dollar a year tax were simply levied against oil, without any
rebates to industry, the price of oil would increase less than 42 cents a
barrel.  We are, in December of 2002, paying a 5 to 10 dollar a barrel
premium for some minor disruptions to supply.  This could become much worse
if an oil embargo should occur due to political conditions.  Further, if
the plan quantified 3 for 1 payback is achieved, even without the much
additional but unquantified payback due to economic multipliers and
intangibles, the tax should not be a burden on the taxpayer, but rather a
carrier of the taxpayer's burden.

The plan as proposed is very modest, and in fact far too timid for our
significant needs.  The numbers provided are considered a minimal
implementation of the concept.  Presently, instead of charging the
environmental cost of non-renewable energy sources, we are subsidizing them
at amounts that have exceeded 30 billion dollars a year.  This plan might
be funded in full, without excise taxes, by simply channeling 10 percent of
existing energy subsidies to the proposed agency.  Alternatively, funding
could have occurred in full with a one time payment from the trillion
dollar surplus which has now unfortunately disappeared.


BENEFITS OF THE PLAN

The principle benefits derived are long term and to the nation as a whole
and are not readily quantified in the plan.  The permanent nature of the
plan and its fund is designed to achieve independence from political
cycles.  This aspect of the plan is critical to its success and is a
distinguishing benefit of the plan.  The long term stability offered by
this plan is intended to reduce the destabilizing effects of the
continually changing national financial, regulatory, and market conditions
which have so plagued the renewable energy industry.

The principle reliable benefit of the plan is that the nation gets all the
tax money back in the form of direct economic stimulation, reduced energy
cost, and eventually in the form of funding for energy production and
conservation efforts produced without taxation.  In addition, the
capitalization of the fund helps drive the stock market and capitalizes
industry in general, while the fund interest supports the energy industry
directly with low risk and potentially windfall profits, helps drive the
economy through financing, and increases general tax revenue.  Ultimately,
energy prices will be driven lower than they would be otherwise, and low
energy prices should be a major factor in driving the economic productivity
and in keeping inflation low. There is also the potential of major
technological breakthroughs achieved through the plan that will permanently
free us from energy worries.

This plan may not do as much as hoped to solve world energy problems unless
a similar program is adopted on a large scale by other significant
economies.  However, if the USA becomes largely renewable energy driven,
and the rest of the world does not, our energy exports should have a
dramatically increased value, and this is good for the balance of trade.

In addition to all the above unquantified benefits, the quantified
estimates indicate an about 3 for 1 return on investment to the nation at
the 40 year horizon if the plan becomes self funding at the 20 year
horizon.  If foreign firms are permitted to bid, then the cost/benefit for
the quantified values drops to about half that, though the full value of
the project energy production is still achieved.  Over 150 billion dollars
in energy production facilities is produced in 40 years, at the nominal tax
rate suggested, but the economic multiplier for this benefit should be very
large, with a measurable economic benefit possibly closer to a trillion
dollars.  The suggested taxation rate can not achieve all the benefits for
which there is a defined need nation wide,  but could be significantly
scaled up if or when desired, with a corresponding increase in expected
benefits, both quantified and unquantified.  This plan thus provides the
potential to leave a meaningful or even crucial legacy to future
generations.

This plan is public domain, without copyright. Publishing, distribution,
correction or enhancement by any means is encouraged by the author.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  1 09:14:22 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What do you think of this?
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Subject: What do you think of this?

Hope this isn't too hasty an appraisal, but on first glance, it appears that the inventor forgot to check out "prior art"

IMHO, this disclosure appears to be far from new, especially in its ignorance of prior art (and electrical engineering). It's called "variable reluctance (what the inventor seems to be calling "magnetic conducutivity").

In fact the device (as described) seems to be clearly inductive in it's electrical ouput, despite having both a static field and a static output winding, and furthermore, something rather similar was invented years ago in that hotbed of scientific creativity, Las Vegas, Nevada:


USPTO #   4077001     Frank B. Richardson    1978  
Electromagnetic Convertor With Stationary Variable-Reluctance Members

ABSTRACT:   A dc/dc converter comprising a permanent magnet having
spaced-apart poles and a permanent magnetic field extending between the
poles of the magnet. A variable-reluctance core is disposed in the field in
fixed relation to the magnet and the reluctance of the core is varied to
cause the pattern of the lines of force of the magnetic field to shift. An
output conductor is disposed in the field in fixed relation to the magnet
and is positioned to be cut by the shifting lines of permanent magnetic
force so that a voltage is induced in the conductor.

BTW the Richardson device was relatively efficient but was not OU.

Am I missing something?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  1 10:07:49 2003
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Subject: Re: Bush to fund hot fusion
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This is one more example of the approach the Bush administration is
taking on all issues—do what is politically advantageous to his
administration, not what makes sense to the long range health of the
country.  As a result, it is no longer possible to discuss many
important issues in science without being political.

The US pulled out of ITER several years ago because it was clear that
progress on hot fusion was too slow to be practical.  In addition,
several very important problems were not being addressed.  Even after
the physics problem has been solved, several engineering problems would
still prevent a commercial device from being built for decades, if at
all.  In addition,  radioactivity generated by such a plant is not as
trivial as they claim. It was clear to anyone who took time to study the
problem without self-interest that this was one more con job being done
on the American public.  Consequently, the government pulled out of the
program and sought energy elsewhere.   Now,  Bush is starting up the
program again.  This is on top of many other poorly thought out
programs, not the least of which is the promised war.  We all are going
to pay a very high price for the election of this man.

Ed

thomas malloy wrote:

> >hamdi ucar asks:
> >
> >>ITER ?
> >
> >Do you? I ture too!
>
> And Jed responded;
>
> >
> >ITER stands for International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor.
> >
> >Stephen O. Dean, Fusion Power Associates, reported: "The United
> >States will rejoin the ITER project, from which it withdrew in 1998.
> >ITER, the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, is
> >designed to produce about 500 Megawatts of thermal fusion power in
> >pulses lasting about 10 minutes, with the potential for later
> >upgrades
> >to continuous power production. . . ."
> >
> >Bush called ITER "an ambitious international research project."
> >
>
> The last I heard, the best plasma fusion reactors were operating at
> 85% of unity. Do any of you people know anything different?

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  1 11:41:24 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: What do you think of this?
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            I'm the non Tech founder of the bus. Side of an evolutionary new 
tech. not high tech. CO. that will be manu. technologies of this magnitude.  
I'm having the tech's that are on Einstein, Tesla's and Faraday's level 
evaluate this with the info available. I'm aware of situations on and 
probably past this level.

 If it actually produces at a level that we have and can create I will 
provide you with a summary of their  evaluation. Main stream science cannot 
explain any of our situations, because they have no known math to do so. 
Without their established conversion of energy theory only math they are 
totally lost.

Because it is all they have and it is basically worthless now. Because it 
cannot explain the Tech. operational dynamics of what we visually demo. But 
new physics has been created that does but is something we will not Pub. 
Because we can provide demos that drastically reduce electricity requirements 
for any given situation by up to 75%.which is all that is necessary to prove 
the first new electrical theory in 100 years. 

Now far  less is required than currently would be necessary for normal 
operational situations. Since A/C currently is the absolute dominate power 
providing situation on this planet. That capability is a possible major world 
wide in scope new technology. 

According to MIT's super computer that was pimped for free processing time.  
If our first minor and basically obsolete to us situation was used on a 
planet wide bases. There would be no electrical demand increases over current 
demand until 2080 when the projected POP will reach 13 billion. As it is 
demand now projected demand will double by 2020. So if this new situation is 
on that level then it is well worth looking at.       J.R Carey 810 618 9234 
USA 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  1 22:02:54 2003
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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:59:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: INFO: Shuttle Debris in TEXAS
To: "Vortex-L Bill Beaty's list" <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
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Us Texan's are used to large objects falling from the sky...  But this
was no hail storm, and just a bit too close.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/maps/us/nacogdoches.texas/popup.shuttle.map.gif

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2153370

http://abc.net.au/news/2003/02/item20030202054641_1.htm

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-02-01T205318Z_01_HOU01D_RTRIDSP_2_SHUTTLE.jpg

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-02-01T161624Z_01_WAS101D_RTRIDSP_2_SPACE-SHUTTLE.jpg

--- "Emergencyemail.ORG" <bounced emergencyemailnetwork.net> wrote:
> From: "Emergencyemail.ORG" <bounced emergencyemailnetwork.net>
> To: cjford1 yahoo.com
> Subject: INFO: Shuttle Debris in TEXAS
> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:46:42 -0500
> 
> Texas residents who come in contact with any debris from the explosion
> of
> shuttle Comlumbia should immediately contact local authorities.
> 
> Residents warned not to pick up any fallen debris.
> Debris is potentially dangerous.
> 
> THE EMERGENCY EMAIL & WIRELESS NETWORK
> http://www.emergencyemail.org/
> 
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  2 22:11:18 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 00:09:55 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject:  Shuttle Debris
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I'm sitting here listening to Drudge with one ear and Jack Van Impe 
in the other ear, and typing. I do so enjoy doing three things at 
once!

It appears that NASA knew that the vehicle was fatally compromised. 
They used intelligence assets to photograph the bottom of it. There 
was supposed to be a tile repair kit, and it should have been 
equipped to do a EVA. The vehicle was positioned so that it was too 
far away from the space station for them to reach it. The first 
question, is, if they knew that the tiles were compromised, at 
launch, could the vehicles orbit have been changed so that they could 
have reached the space station? Is it possible to fix the tiles, and 
if so, why was a tile repair kit not included? Then there is the 
matter of a January launch, didn't those door knobs learn anything 
from the Challenger disaster? If these reports are true, it is 
incompetence, bordering on  criminal negligence.

I also listened to Richard Hoagland, www.enterprisemission.com , 
interviewed last night on Coast to Coast AM. He came to similar 
conclusions.

Help me out here guys, say it ain't so!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 07:06:04 2003
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Shuttle Debris
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--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
> It appears that NASA knew that the vehicle was fatally compromised. 
> They used intelligence assets to photograph the bottom of it.

1  "Intelligence assetx" meanng satilites.  Persision ground observation
OVs cannot be repositioned to look at other OVs or even into space.  As
with the case of the opollo LM bay recently fount in orbit.  With out
asking why or applying any common sence folks accused gov or covering up
ET  "Why can't they use a spy satalite?" and "Dont tell me the Hubble
can't get a better look" 

> There 
> was supposed to be a tile repair kit, and it should have been 
> equipped to do a EVA. 

My understanding is that the "repar kit" was scraped due to lack of
feasability. and it was likely that astronauts would do more dammage by
trying to repair the tiles.

> The vehicle was positioned so that it was too 
> far away from the space station for them to reach it. 
> The first 
> question, is, if they knew that the tiles were compromised, at 
> launch, could the vehicles orbit have been changed so that they could 
> have reached the space station? Is it possible to fix the tiles, and 
> if so, why was a tile repair kit not included? 

Ok...   Here is the deal.  You set your orbit vectors and there you are. 
You need to carry lots of extra fuel to change that.  It is doable but
only feasable if you actually plan to alter your orbit.  (the slowdown
fuel is not enough to do the job)

> Then there is the 
> matter of a January launch, didn't those door knobs learn anything 
> from the Challenger disaster? If these reports are true, it is 
> incompetence, bordering on  criminal negligence.

What does January have to do with it?
 
> I also listened to Richard Hoagland, www.enterprisemission.com , 
> interviewed last night on Coast to Coast AM. He came to similar 
> conclusions.
> 
> Help me out here guys, say it ain't so!

Ok  Hoagland is a bit of a crackpot and has some bitterness about NASA  I
would call him a hostile witness. However  The doorknob simily is
probably more accurate then you want to believe.  

Think about this...  In the sixties they put men on The Moon, a lander on
Mars and started the voiager project.  There where problems with opollo
13 but fatal only to the mission (not the crew).  Since then there has
been quite a staff turnover.  Then challenger...  The busted hubble. (and
the thumb print on the reflector) and a mars lander that had a little
planet strike (software bug), the shuttles "replacement" that won't
fly... and... and... and...

Just an observation.
   

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 14:33:13 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 14:28:23 -0800
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For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the "hydrogen economy" 

Recently even the president has gotten on board, which must mean that the US petroleum industry has finally seen the light, and is desirous of getting its size-15-foot firmly in the door... just in case the consumer actually demands *energy independence* sooner rather than later.

With war in the oil fields looming, which will likely result in a further spike in fuel prices, one wonders just how close we are now to some kind of price parity between hydrogen and gasoline. $2 gallon gasoline seems inevitable, so let's use that round number as a jumping-off point.

Unfortunately, in such an analysis, getting the apples to look like the oranges so as to make an intelligent cross-comparison, is not that easy. The reason is two-fold (or more).

First there is the hydrogen "carrier". Can H2, a highly volatile gas,  be safely distributed as a compressed gas or cryogenic liquid, or what about the alternative forms more similar to gasoline, such as a hydrogen-rich molecule, easily split, like methanol, borane or better yet, as you will read below, AMMONIA might make an excellent transportation fuel.

And then there is the conversion methodology which is tied-in so closely to other factors. Fuel cells are about twice as efficient in converting the thermal energy of H2 into electricity as an IC engine - and that is the preferred way that hydrogen should be burned. But fuel cells require precious metals and will far be more costly than an internal combustion engine, at least until platinum substitutes are found, so it is a little unfair to base a judgment on the fact that the thermal energy of H2 can in theory be converted at higher efficiency to electricity. 

As an intermediary step, the auto makers have and are converting the  internal combustion (or IC) - engine to burn H2, which will be less efficient but cheaper to implement than fuel cells. Ford has emerged as a leader in hydrogen internal combustion engines with its concept Model U vehicle. The Model U is an electric-drive vehicle with a IC hydrogen engine (that can eventually be replaced by a fuel cell, once they become economical). Ford's design is evolutionary, not revolutionary but it is an interesting "bridge" that will allow further conversion as soon as market conditions permit, while also developing the acceptance and infrastructure for hydrogen-powered vehicles right away. BTW, the exhaust heat from an IC engine, normally useless, can be used to catalytically split off the H2 from the ammonia.

Bush was talking about the youth of today using hydrogen as their main fuel some 15-20 years down the road, but is there any prospect that a substantial number of their parents will be using it in 5 years...perhaps in the refined version of a Model U ammonia-fueled vehicle, or in a Japanese equivalent?

Fred Sparber sent me the following ammonia fuel info, including this and other pdf files at the web site which has a good deal of  interesting data. 
http://www.larocheind.com/Library/lqaa.htm
 
Ammonia appears to be a desireable and inexpensive "carrier" for hydrogen. Maybe it is better than natural gas or methanol, or H2 derived from electrolysis. At $0.10/kw-hr, hydrogen gotten by the most efficient electrolysis process costs $2.50/lb and isn't readily storable or transportable. Natural gas is becoming much more costly and methanol is made from natural gas. Ammonia is toxic but probably not much more so than gasoline, and has a certain amount of consummer acceptance, since it is already used as a solvent, fertilizer, and window cleaner (highly diluted) .

 Right now Agricultural Anhydrous Ammonia (NH3) is around $450.00/ton (~$0.23/lb) almost double the mid 1980s cost - which puts the Hydrogen derived from ammonia at a cost of $1.30/lb. If given adequate tax incentive and increased demand, the cost could be even less.

Of course, making ammonia or its compounds today usually involves fossil fuels, especially natural gas, but it doesn't have to. There are a number of ways to make ammonia using nuclear energy or coal, but especially nuclear. There are a number of proposals (funded by DARPA, etc.) that show that H2 from nuclear can come in under $1/lb, even without incentives, but it must still be converted to carrier form. Fortunately, the nitrogen of ammonia is about as close to free as air is, and also has a very low thermal cross-section for neutrons, so there is some prospect of making ammonia directly in a reactor. 

It turns out that the 6 pounds of H2 split off from 34 pounds of ammonia has a heat value of 312,000 Btu, which compares favorably with three gal. of gasoline.  Three gallons of gasoline at $2 gallon will cost $6 and the equal thermal value H2 will cost about $7.80 today - a premium of only a little more than 25%. 

Not bad for present day and even though all of this pricing data is transitory - based on market whims- it should put a "cap" on how high gasoline can go at about $3 gallon. But the problem is that for alternative fuels to become viable in today's political economy, we must artifically protect the investors in those fuels fuels. 

One could argue that if ammonia production were given preferential tax incentives and an all-out national commitment, then the resultant demand should drive the price down. BUT... if the demand for oil drops off because of the competition with ammonia, then its price would fall dramatically to compenstate and retain market share, as the production costs are less to begin with. But that would be a false and fleeting benefit to the consummer, as gasoline would rise again once the competitors are gone. Bottom line... ammonia or any alternative fuel (i.e. *energy independence*) wont happen without the political will and a massive national commitment.

I know you don't want to hear this ...but...perhaps the best way to provide for our eventual energy independece is painful...it is looking more and more like it is going to have to involve taxing gasoline, and taxing it excessively!! 

If gasoline is taxed to a minimum of say $3 gallon and can never go below that, we can "kill two birds with one stone", so to speak. One bird, of course, being the nearly extinct saddam-bird of Iraq.

With an extra buck a gallon of gasoline tax, we could use the money to pay off the oil-war against Saddam (by about the time the kids of today are well into the hydrogen economy) and at the same time give needed incentive to alternative solutions like ammonia (or anything else) as a transportation fuel.

I fervently hope/wish/pray that we as a nation could pull off the two-bird thing without the war...just take the bird in the hand (and forget about the Bush-bird) but maybe the war is even more inevitable than the tax. 

The subconscious message. following the weekend's tragedy, that is becoming audible all the way from D.C to the middle East....you do not want to mess around with us when we are ego-damaged, oil-hungry, and looking for a scape-goat...

Regards,

Jones


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 14:47:10 2003
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Jones Beene wrote:

>For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the 
>"hydrogen economy"

A lot longer than that.


>Recently even the president has gotten on board, which must mean that the 
>US petroleum industry has finally seen the light, and is desirous of 
>getting its size-15-foot firmly in the door...

I do not think so. I think the statements by the oil industry, GM and by 
Bush are all smoke screens. They want to do a little R&D to make the public 
think they are addressing the problem, so they can maintain the present 
absurdly inefficient & polluting technology indefinitely. If they were at 
all serious, they would be producing hundreds of thousands of hybrid vehicles.


>First there is the hydrogen "carrier". Can H2, a highly volatile gas . . .

It isn't that volatile, and it is probably safer than gasoline. See: P. 
Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy."

I do not think there is any future for widespread fuel-cell technology. 
There are not enough platinum group metals in the world to support 
fuel-cell automobiles. I do not think there are any alternative materials.

The scarcity of platinum group metals may also make the widespread, small 
scale use of CF impossible.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 16:42:44 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:40:03 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:43:49 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>I do not think there is any future for widespread fuel-cell technology. 
>There are not enough platinum group metals in the world to support 
>fuel-cell automobiles. I do not think there are any alternative materials.

The "bottom rung" of the platinum group metals (Fe, Co, Ni) might make useable hydrogen catalysts in a pinch, and they are cheaper and much more plentiful. In fact they already perform similar catalytic functions in various hydrocarbon reactions.

>
>The scarcity of platinum group metals may also make the widespread, small 
>scale use of CF impossible.
>
>- Jed
>

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 16:58:17 2003
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Hi.

Jones ( and Fred ) suggest using ammonia as an H carrier. I suppose
it is true that it is better than liquid H, but not by much. In the
event of an accident, either you have an invisible fireball ( H2 ) or
a poison gas cloud ( NH4 ). Of course there are various storage
options for the H which provide some protection against the
above, what do you have in mind for the ammonia?

I have had pretty good results with active carbon, and I'm wondering
now whether that would be good for ammonia as well.... It had
a crazy green appeal as well, being made of coconut husks.

>I do not think so. I think the statements by the oil industry, GM and by
>Bush are all smoke screens. They want to do a little R&D to make the public
>think they are addressing the problem, so they can maintain the present
>absurdly inefficient & polluting technology indefinitely. If they were at
>all serious, they would be producing hundreds of thousands of hybrid
vehicles.

Yes, let's put some numbers to this.

At the beginning of his administration, Clinton passed into law a bill
providing 1.5 billion dollars over ( I believe ) a ten year period to
the auto manufacturers to develop hybrid electric/IC technology for a family
car.
When regime change occurred, this plan was immediately scuttled, and
replaced by a plan to develop hydrogen cars, at a cost of
something like 500 million over the same period. Now that figure has been
raised to 1.2 billion, yet still less than the Clinton era funding 10
years ago. I think it's fair to say that in 10 years time, the
Japanese will just be coming out with consumer grade H powered cars,
as they are now with hybrid cars, and we'll again scuttle the program
and put <1 billion dollars into whatever is the next thing. For
in the end, the problem of the auto manufacturer is that people
just don't care about fuel efficiency when purchasing an automobile.
It can obviously be done, I can buy a hybrid today at about half the
cost of an SUV. Yet they are rarely seen on the road.
It took the 70's oil embargo by the Saudi's to
change public opinion on this, however temporary. What do you
suppose will cause a real sea change?

W. mentioned in his speech that "a child born today may learn to
drive in a hydrogen powered car". About 15 years ago, I had the
pleasure of tooling around a parking lot with Roger Billings, who
was presenting his teams work on hydrogen powered cars at a conference.
He showed us pictures of converted cars which were driven circa '75.
W. perhaps is confused here, thinking that it was I who was born yesterday
and not the child???

K.






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 17:20:55 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: How close are we?
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At 8:13 PM 2/3/3, Keith Nagel wrote:

>It took the 70's oil embargo by the Saudi's to
>change public opinion on this, however temporary. What do you
>suppose will cause a real sea change?


A renewable energy permanent fund administered in an independent trust will
take the politics out of the situation and smooth over the cash flow
problems.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 17:52:59 2003
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Ah Horace, I was just thinking of you...

Cash flow problems? W. has just posted this years
budget, something over 2 trillion dollars. We'll
be running a deficit of about 300 billion, a new
record! (grin). How much do you need as a seed?
2 billion? 10 billion? Seems like there's plenty
of money around, just a lack of will to use it.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:17 PM
To: knagel gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: How close are we?


At 8:13 PM 2/3/3, Keith Nagel wrote:

>It took the 70's oil embargo by the Saudi's to
>change public opinion on this, however temporary. What do you
>suppose will cause a real sea change?


A renewable energy permanent fund administered in an independent trust will
take the politics out of the situation and smooth over the cash flow
problems.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 18:36:05 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:30:27 EST
Subject: A conversation with the Chief Scientist Of the Delphi Corp. 
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          I had a conversation today with the chief scientist of the Delphi 
Corp. To rattle his caged a little he was reading one of my mails when i 
called.  WE had showed him the next several steps in evolution beyond fuel 
cells ,hybrids, internal combustion and current EV platforms in the fall of 
2001 at his wotld Hq. tech. and a ranking city official attended the meetings 
with us. 

  Thev next several steps are the ones we will be DEV.  He was also 
instructed how to make his now obsolete hydrogen propulsion function for 
free. They had the process backwards because they were using Theory only 
based thinking to look at it. GM  Legal has instructed him not to speak with 
us. 

But Carl Speck is a visionary and a nice guy. He does not have the GM 
attitude. I asked him point blank is there and question we are not real and 
he said  NO .    FYI information after the meetings he sent me a mail saying 
he did not understand any thing we showed him it is attached after you 
convesation.  Your conversation below about propulsion is at the stone age 
level as far as  I'm concerned  p hoffman it appears is  out in LA LA  land 
somewhere   It appears He does not have clue one what he is talking about. It 
appears I'm going to roast him  over the coals when i look that site up

 Jones Beene wrote:

>For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the 
>"hydrogen economy"

A lot longer than that.

>Recently even the president has gotten on board, which must mean that the 
>US petroleum industry has finally seen the light, and is desirous of 
>getting its size-15-foot firmly in the door...

I do not think so. I think the statements by the oil industry, GM and by 
Bush are all smoke screens. They want to do a little R&D to make the public 
think they are addressing the problem, so they can maintain the present 
absurdly inefficient & polluting technology indefinitely. If they were at 
all serious, they would be producing hundreds of thousands of hybrid 
vehicles.


>First there is the hydrogen "carrier". Can H2, a highly volatile gas . . .

It isn't that volatile, and it is probably safer than gasoline. See: P. 
Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy."

I do not think there is any future for widespread fuel-cell technology. 
There are not enough platinum group metals in the world to support 
fuel-cell automobiles. I do not think there are any alternative materials.

The scarcity of platinum group metals may also make the widespread, small 
scale use of CF impossible.

- Jed
                 I have his adress heading in a file  i can send if neceesary 

     Jack

The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various
technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries & Clearing.  I
have not been able to establish a phone number for her.  I have only been
able to get an address.  It is:

Technologies Inquiries & Clearing
Delphi Technologies, Inc.
Delphi Automotive Systems
PO Box 5
Troy, MI 48099-0005

When we talked about further discusions, I indicated that these people would
expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.  

In our last discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not
understand how it could work.  I still don't, but I wish you your best in
pursuing it

Carl




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 19:39:09 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Gravitational power?
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:34:15 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

g x c = 2.94 GW/kg. :)


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  3 19:57:47 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:53:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> g x c = 2.94 GW/kg. :)
> 

Hu ?

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 04:06:36 2003
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>--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:

And Charles Ford responded

>  >
>  > Help me out here guys, say it ain't so!
>
>Ok  Hoagland is a bit of a crackpot and has some bitterness about NASA  I
>would call him a hostile witness. However  The doorknob simily is
>probably more accurate then you want to believe. 
>
>Think about this...  In the sixties they put men on The Moon, a lander on
>Mars and started the voiager project.  There where problems with opollo
>13 but fatal only to the mission (not the crew).  Since then there has
>been quite a staff turnover.  Then challenger...  The busted hubble. (and
>the thumb print on the reflector) and a mars lander that had a little
>planet strike (software bug), the shuttles "replacement" that won't
>fly... and... and... and...

It was going to be a cheap method of putting things in orbit.

I'm sending this out to the Communicators on talk radio.

First of all the bird should have been fabricated out of titanium. 
Lockheed had a facility capable of fabricating such a vehicle, but it 
was destroyed on the orders of  Robert McNamara.

Then there is the matter of the ice block that caused the damage. It 
was a January launch. Apparently those door knobs didn't learn 
anything from the Challenger disaster.

What really burns me is their failure to provide a tile repair kit 
and provisions for an EVA. It would seem to me, that if you have a 
space suit, and they did and an airlock, and the shuttle has one, 
then you have most of what is required for an EVA.

The designers of the shuttle threw away one half of the vehicle's 
cargo carrying capacity in order to make it land like an airplane.

Now for the matter of cost, if you have two trucking companies; one 
called NASA, and the other called the Russians, who are ready willing 
and able to deliver goods into stable earth orbit. NASA is charging 
$10,000 per pound to do it, and the Russians are charging $150 per 
pound, does it take a degree in business administration to determine 
which company you are going to select in order to do the job?

Getting back to the matter of Criminal Negligence, which as you know, 
is a serious charge. If I were to do some wiring in your house, and 
it subsequently set the house on fire, and one of your family members 
died, then I would be guilty of that charge, because I am a licensed 
electrical professional, and I knew, or should have known, that the 
wiring was not done according to the Electrical Code. I must point 
out that wiring done according to the Code is inherently safe.

I've spent several hours listening to Richard Hoagland of 
www.enterprisemission.com , being interviewed on the subject. I won't 
say this on the air, of course, but he has correlated the actions of 
NASA; meaning dates, places landed, with the Egyptian Mystery 
Religion. Jack Parsons, the former director of JPL, was a student of 
Allester Crowley, the infamous satanist. Two of his associates were 
the science fiction writers, L Ron Hubbard, and Robert Heinlein. 
Heinlein was the author of many novels which glorified anarchy and 
sexual immorality, and L Ron Hubbard is best know as the founder of 
the Scientology cult. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Hoagland was going on about how NASA is under funded. OTOH, the 
external fuel tanks could have been fitted with a rocket pack which 
would place them in stable orbit. Then collars could have been built 
which would have allowed a group of tanks to be configured into a 
circle. They would have had as much space as several 747's in which 
to build a space station. Instead, the NASA management chose to build 
the space station from scratch, hence the price tag. IMHO, those door 
knobs will spend any given amount of money, just like any other group 
of bureaucrats.

In my humble opinion, the actions of the NASA management rises to that level.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 04:06:41 2003
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Jones Breene Posted;

>For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the 
>"hydrogen economy"


There was a man who was interviewed on Coast to Coast AM who 
represented a group of scientists who are interested in hydrogen. He 
said that with wind machines which produced electricity at, I assume, 
2.2 volts, water could be electrolyzed and fed into the existing 
natural gas pipelines, we could make enough hydrogen to power the 
American vehicle fleet. He proposed putting people to work building 
them. While this would cost us money in the short term, it would wean 
the country off of middle eastern oil, which is costing us 
$1,000,000,000 per month, or something, it would pay for itself.

>If gasoline is taxed to a minimum of say $3 gallon and can never go 
>below that, we can "kill two birds with one stone", so to speak. One 
>bird, of course, being the nearly extinct saddam-bird of Iraq.

Did any of you people hear the report of the former guard of So-damn 
insane who defected? It seems that the Saddam-bird has some chemical 
facilities hidden south of Bagdad. I wonder what he plans to do with 
those? Snicker, snicker.

>
>With an extra buck a gallon of gasoline tax, we could use the money 
>to pay off the oil-war against Saddam (by about the time the kids of 
>today are well into the hydrogen economy) and at the same time give 
>needed incentive to alternative solutions like ammonia (or anything 
>else) as a transportation fuel.

I agree with the $3 per gallon price, it would make the turkeys 
conserve fuel. Ammonia, OTOH, is a different kettle of fish. Have you 
ever smelled that stuff?

>
>I fervently hope/wish/pray that we as a nation could pull off the 
>two-bird thing without the war...just take the bird in the hand (and 
>forget about the Bush-bird) but maybe the war is even more 
>inevitable than the tax.

Bush bird? The war is inevitable, I don't think that Sodamn is going 
to go quietly.

>
>The subconscious message. following the weekend's tragedy, that is 
>becoming audible all the way from D.C to the middle East....you do 
>not want to mess around with us when we are ego-damaged, oil-hungry, 
>and looking for a scape-goat...

Hum, look, we have some stupid bureaucrats making decisions, and we 
are oil hungry, but we've identified a scape goat.

And Jed continued;

I do not think there is any future for widespread fuel-cell 
technology. There are not enough platinum group metals in the world 
to support fuel-cell automobiles. I do not think there are any 
alternative materials.

I've heard that there are alternatives.

The scarcity of platinum group metals may also make the widespread, 
small scale use of CF impossible.

Hey Jed, have you ever heard of the Piantelli Patent? he used nickel. 
Unfortunately he doesn't respond to my emails.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 09:35:23 2003
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From: Yakov Smirnoff <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: Bush to fund hot fusion
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:34:53 -0500
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On Friday 31 January 2003 08:59, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> $5 billion more down the rat hole. See:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/01/30/fusion.science/index.html
> 
> I guess this is ITER.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 
> 
Mr Bush is not in it for the science, although that 10% share of the expenses
will help a lot with the project.  We got out years ago, probably under 
pressure from oil interests here in this country.  Those interests exerted 
other pressures as well, I am sure, in the hope that the project would then
be stillborn.    Fortunately for all of us in the world that have to work for 
a living, that did not happen.  The project is going forward.
      It is going forward with or without the help of the American government.
The Americans could have been first on it had they built the supercollider
back in the 1980's.   Instead, they let environmental luddites and oil 
interests in bed with them cancel that project, just like the breeder reactor
(now being built by China and Japan as crash programs.......absolutely
no demonstrators.....curious), and the SST (later built by Russia and since
not used extensively for poor safety record....bad maintainance).  The only
guarantee is that when things are built now a days, it is not American hands
that build them.
    The only reason Mr Bush got back into the ITER is that last month, in
December, the Chinese expressed interests in the project to the extent
that they now want in.   They got in.  They are helping. And that has made
all the difference for the Americans.  They are in this because they have to
be, for to back out would be to not participate in the financial end of it 
when it starts up..........patents.....copyrights......trademarks.  Some 
'energy independence' it would be if any fusion reactor built in the United
States after 2010 would have to be licensed from the Chinese or the 
European Union!   And then there is the matter of maybe the oil companies
wanting to buy in on some of the technology.  
    Fat chance of that.  Russia pioneered the research on the Tokomak
reactor design being used in the ITER.  Granted much has been learned
about plasma behaviour since, but much of that comes from Russia as well.
If Russia is smart they will patent the hell out of the ITER, along with all 
the others that help in its construction.
    The only real worry about the project is that I really hope that some 
kind of electrohydrodynamic or magnetoelectrodynamic devices are
used for the energy extraction processes.  I would just hate to see this
being used to boil water.  MHD would allow this to be built in space as
well as here, or on water short planets or asteroids as base power supplies.

Yakov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 11:45:48 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: How close are we?
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At 9:06 PM 2/3/3, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Ah Horace, I was just thinking of you...
>
>Cash flow problems? W. has just posted this years
>budget, something over 2 trillion dollars. We'll
>be running a deficit of about 300 billion, a new
>record! (grin). How much do you need as a seed?
>2 billion? 10 billion? Seems like there's plenty
>of money around, just a lack of will to use it.
>
>K.


Agreed.  The plan calls for 3 billion dollars a year, which could be funded
by simply eliminating 10 percent of the current energy subsidies to the
petroleum industry.  Alternatively, a 42 cent per barrel excise tax on oil
would suffice.

As the plan says: "US oil consumption in 2000 was about 7.2 billion
barrels.  If the entire 3 billion dollar a year tax were simply levied
against oil, without any rebates to industry, the price of oil would
increase less than 42 cents a barrel.  We are, in December of 2002, paying
a 5 to 10 dollar a barrel premium for some minor disruptions to supply.
This could become much worse if an oil embargo should occur due to
political conditions.  Further, if the plan quantified 3 for 1 payback is
achieved, even without the much additional but unquantified payback due to
economic multipliers and intangibles, the tax should not be a burden on the
taxpayer, but rather a carrier of the taxpayer's burden."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: How close are we?
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At 6:03 AM 2/4/3, thomas malloy wrote:
>Jones Breene Posted;
>
>>For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the
>>"hydrogen economy"
>
>
>There was a man who was interviewed on Coast to Coast AM who
>represented a group of scientists who are interested in hydrogen. He
>said that with wind machines which produced electricity at, I assume,
>2.2 volts, water could be electrolyzed and fed into the existing
>natural gas pipelines, we could make enough hydrogen to power the
>American vehicle fleet. He proposed putting people to work building
>them. While this would cost us money in the short term, it would wean
>the country off of middle eastern oil, which is costing us
>$1,000,000,000 per month, or something, it would pay for itself.


Must have read my plan in sci.energy.hydrogen  8^)

My plan suggests doing the above.  BYW, any output voltage can be used for
electgrolysis by putting the cells in series.  There are also other
technologies for generating hydrogen that may prove more energy efficient.

Once a sufficiently large permanent fund is established and operated as
specified, it is perpetual, and will eventually wipe out fossil fuel
consumption for energy.  If the plan specified 45 cent per barrel tax is
levied, then gasoline and other oil products should go up by about 5
percent (at present oil prices) or about 8 cents a gallon.  At a $1.50 a
gallon tax you discussed the process should be MUCH MUCH expedited!

The plan reads:"Though the planning horizon for hydrogen is long, it still
may be useful to give special weight to projects which produce hydrogen,
and to support hydrogen storage, generation, transportation, and fuel cell
research.  Similar consideration may be warranted for methods of methane
production from atmospheric carbon using renewable sources.  If wind energy
costs continue to decline as in the past 20 years, hydrogen or methane
producing wind farms should be cost beneficial within 10 years.  This makes
feasible many additional locations for major wind energy generation, like
Alaska.  With sufficient research and appropriate legislation, Alaska alone
has the potential to provide the US energy growth needs for generations,
though it may take a commitment similar to that of going to the moon to
realize it. ...

US oil consumption in 2000 was about 7.2 billion barrels.  If the entire 3
billion dollar a year tax were simply levied against oil, without any
rebates to industry, the price of oil would increase less than 42 cents a
barrel.  We are, in December of 2002, paying a 5 to 10 dollar a barrel
premium for some minor disruptions to supply.  This could become much worse
if an oil embargo should occur due to political conditions.  Further, if
the plan quantified 3 for 1 payback is achieved, even without the much
additional but unquantified payback due to economic multipliers and
intangibles, the tax should not be a burden on the taxpayer, but rather a
carrier of the taxpayer's burden.

The plan as proposed is very modest, and in fact far too timid for our
significant needs.  The numbers provided are considered a minimal
implementation of the concept.  Presently, instead of charging the
environmental cost of non-renewable energy sources, we are subsidizing them
at amounts that have exceeded 30 billion dollars a year.  This plan might
be funded in full, without excise taxes, by simply channeling 10 percent of
existing energy subsidies to the proposed agency.  Alternatively, funding
could have occurred in full with a one time payment from the trillion
dollar surplus which has now unfortunately disappeared."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 11:56:46 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
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At 2:34 PM 2/4/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>g x c = 2.94 GW/kg. :)


That is actually gravitational power demand.  It is the photonic power
required to inirtially hover a kg mass in a 1 g field.  To extract the
"gravitational power", by symmetry, it is necessary to figure out how to
cause the gravitational field caused by two gravitationally attracted
bodies to radiate enough photons to prevent the approach of the two bodies.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 12:50:33 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 07:47:28 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:52:40 -0900:
Hi Horace,
[snip]
You are correct. Still it is interesting to contemplate the possibility
that perhaps the original gravitational force is created in just such a fashion.
(Perhaps with barely detectable longitudinal waves?)
Or more precisely, through the filtering of even more powerful waves by the bodies themselves, resulting in an "attractive force".

>At 2:34 PM 2/4/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>g x c = 2.94 GW/kg. :)
>
>
>That is actually gravitational power demand.  It is the photonic power
>required to inirtially hover a kg mass in a 1 g field.  To extract the
>"gravitational power", by symmetry, it is necessary to figure out how to
>cause the gravitational field caused by two gravitationally attracted
>bodies to radiate enough photons to prevent the approach of the two bodies.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 13:39:48 2003
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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:35:00 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" 

> Still it is interesting to contemplate the possibility that perhaps the 
> original gravitational force is created in just such a fashion.
> (Perhaps with barely detectable longitudinal waves?)
> Or more precisely, through the filtering of even more powerful waves
> by the bodies themselves, resulting in an "attractive force"

Or perhaps it is created through the filtering of actual particles (leptons) as this fellow thinks: IMPLICATIONS OF NEUTRINO GRAVITATION
http://gravity.ontheinter.net/

There are lots of problems with that concept and I like the longitudinal wave idea better, but if gravity were somehow related to neutrinos, then it opens up implications for a straightforward way to achieve anti-gravity...

Jones

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:15:04 EST
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, msdickerson@yahoo.com
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         It is tacyons  that cause gravity not neutrinos they do not relate 
except both are emitted by stars. And are both power sources.   Neutrinos Are 
the power source your body converts to electricity that in turn causes the 
chemical reactions.  They also interact with the iron deposits and in turn 
create Nat. Magnetic fields. 

  They reach you underground also where the sun does not.  Your electrical 
driven power has to come from somewhere to cause that situation to happen. 
The core uses them to remain molten.   Those are the base theories.   Plus 
they make common sense. There are planets that do not have Natural Magnetic 
fields because iron deposits are require to produce them. Gravity is 
everywhere in the universe.

 It is very simple Stars are bright which means they are emitting power. That 
power has to go somewhere. There other power sources mixed in with them but 
those are the prime ones. Our charged atmosphere is also a power source in 
its own right. It is charged because of all the lighten  Look at all the 
electricity that is in the air in dry areas.

 Or in a dry indoor environment in the winter time in a cold area. Also look 
at Nite Line Jan 10 2002 on ABC  You will see a helicopter hovering at night 
in a dry area in the Mid East the blades are glowing RED. If was in a 
moisture laden area you would not see it. 

 HOW do I know I'm the non tech founder of the Bus. side of an evolutionary 
new Tech. CO>  Our first product totally changes electricity understanding on 
this planet. and is Pub.  Main stream science is bogged down with all their 
theories and laws that that have been drilled into them that totally resticts 
their thinking. 

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Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:55:35 -0700
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http://www.phact.org/e/z/JackCarey-sept.htm

"...Let's try to sum up some of the outrageous claims Jack
Carey has made in
last few months about supposed devices developed by
Confidential
Technology in Flint, MI "

http://www.phact.org/e/
http://www.phact.org/

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = =

----- Original Message -----
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <msdickerson@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER


>          It is tacyons  that cause gravity not neutrinos
they do not relate
> except both are emitted by stars. And are both power
sources.   Neutrinos Are
> the power source your body converts to electricity that in
turn causes the
> chemical reactions.  They also interact with the iron
deposits and in turn
> create Nat. Magnetic fields.
>
>   They reach you underground also where the sun does not.
Your electrical
> driven power has to come from somewhere to cause that
situation to happen.
> The core uses them to remain molten.   Those are the base
theories.   Plus
> they make common sense. There are planets that do not have
Natural Magnetic
> fields because iron deposits are require to produce them.
Gravity is
> everywhere in the universe.
>
>  It is very simple Stars are bright which means they are
emitting power. That
> power has to go somewhere. There other power sources mixed
in with them but
> those are the prime ones. Our charged atmosphere is also a
power source in
> its own right. It is charged because of all the lighten
Look at all the
> electricity that is in the air in dry areas.
>
>  Or in a dry indoor environment in the winter time in a
cold area. Also look
> at Nite Line Jan 10 2002 on ABC  You will see a helicopter
hovering at night
> in a dry area in the Mid East the blades are glowing RED.
If was in a
> moisture laden area you would not see it.
>
>  HOW do I know I'm the non tech founder of the Bus. side
of an evolutionary
> new Tech. CO>  Our first product totally changes
electricity understanding on
> this planet. and is Pub.  Main stream science is bogged
down with all their
> theories and laws that that have been drilled into them
that totally resticts
> their thinking.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 15:44:38 2003
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:42:53 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: JCarey9622 aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, msdickerson@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
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	Dear J Carey,

	I have often read posts which describe something along the lines
of:

	"Tachyons are particles which move at very high speeds, sometimes
exceeding the speed of light."  

	This type of descrptions does not say what tachyons ARE, where
they are purported to be from and-or the nature of their lifetime,
behavior and-or interaction with matter, fields, energy and-or any other
parameters.

	From the description in the post, reproduced below, it appears you
or someone who you communicate with knows about tachyons.
	Can you please instruct us as to the basics of the tachyon?
	Are they indeed particles?  Where do they are come from?  How do
those who know about them arrive at their information?  What is the nature
of their interactions, the span of lifetime? 

	Thank you for taking the time to let us know.  Most "discussion"
about tachyons that have been posted seem to be frank guesses.... and when
asked questions the result is word salad or vapor-woofy.

			Looking forward to the truth,

							JH  


On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>          It is tacyons  that cause gravity not neutrinos they do not relate 
> except both are emitted by stars. And are both power sources.   Neutrinos Are 
> the power source your body converts to electricity that in turn causes the 
> chemical reactions.  They also interact with the iron deposits and in turn 
> create Nat. Magnetic fields. 
> 
>   They reach you underground also where the sun does not.  Your electrical 
> driven power has to come from somewhere to cause that situation to happen. 
> The core uses them to remain molten.   Those are the base theories.   Plus 
> they make common sense. There are planets that do not have Natural Magnetic 
> fields because iron deposits are require to produce them. Gravity is 
> everywhere in the universe.
> 
>  It is very simple Stars are bright which means they are emitting power. That 
> power has to go somewhere. There other power sources mixed in with them but 
> those are the prime ones. Our charged atmosphere is also a power source in 
> its own right. It is charged because of all the lighten  Look at all the 
> electricity that is in the air in dry areas.
> 
>  Or in a dry indoor environment in the winter time in a cold area. Also look 
> at Nite Line Jan 10 2002 on ABC  You will see a helicopter hovering at night 
> in a dry area in the Mid East the blades are glowing RED. If was in a 
> moisture laden area you would not see it. 
> 
>  HOW do I know I'm the non tech founder of the Bus. side of an evolutionary 
> new Tech. CO>  Our first product totally changes electricity understanding on 
> this planet. and is Pub.  Main stream science is bogged down with all their 
> theories and laws that that have been drilled into them that totally resticts 
> their thinking. 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 17:11:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <4e.1734117e.2b71be2b aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:08:59 EST
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
To: herman antioch-college.edu
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In a message dated 2/4/03 6:41:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:


>      ALL right finally some smart questions from a smart man that can see 
> past his nose. I"M so tired of dealing with Morons. Locked in their 
> restrictive theory only thinking boxes.   I will ask if i can get this 
> answerd for you in a few days.  Because it is time for our understanding to 
> take a quantum leap.
> 
>    THEY are emitted by STars the mail says that , Stars are bright objects 
> correct. ?  That means they are producing power    All power sources have 
> to come from somewhere. WAS Da vinchy ,Tesla, Faraday,Moray, for example 
> ahead of there time. Whats to say there are not people that live now that 
> are also ahead of there time. 

    FOR one think if you study  Tesla who was 35 century's ahead of his time 
you would learn a great deal of what was 
> stated.   Look at Da Vinchy  he left drawings century's ahead of there time. 
>  Drawings on that level also exist regarding people that live today. You 
> will see them in time. 

  If you would have came with Bruce meland the editor of E times in June 2001 
when the Toyota Corp. flew him to 
> Kentucky and he drove through Ohio where you live to here . You would have 
> saw them then. But they are not being shown now. All new theory is coming. 
> But most will be proved with visual operational demos. Such as all new and 
> different electrical theory . You can see that now being demonstrated. You 
> would have seen that also if would have came with Bruce.  
> 
> 
>     Dear J Carey,
> 
>     I have often read posts which describe something along the lines
> of:
> 
>     "Tachyons are particles which move at very high speeds, sometimes
> exceeding the speed of light."  
> 
>     This type of descrptions does not say what tachyons ARE, where
> they are purported to be from and-or the nature of their lifetime,
> behavior and-or interaction with matter, fields, energy and-or any other
> parameters.
> 
>     From the description in the post, reproduced below, it appears you
> or someone who you communicate with knows about tachyons.
>     Can you please instruct us as to the basics of the tachyon?
>     Are they indeed particles?  Where do they are come from?  How do
> those who know about them arrive at their information?  What is the nature
> of their interactions, the span of lifetime? 
> 
>     Thank you for taking the time to let us know.  Most "discussion"
> about tachyons that have been posted seem to be frank guesses.... and when
> asked questions the result is word salad or vapor-woofy.
> 
>             Looking forward to the truth,
> 
>                             JH  
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/4/03=
 6:41:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ALL ri=
ght finally some smart questions from a smart man that can see past his nose=
. I"M so tired of dealing with Morons. Locked in their restrictive theory on=
ly thinking boxes.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will ask if i can get this answerd for you=20=
in a few days.&nbsp; Because it is time for our understanding to take a quan=
tum leap.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; THEY are emitted by STars the mail says that , Stars are bright=
 objects correct. ?&nbsp; That means they are producing power&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; All power sources have to come from somewhere. WAS Da vinchy ,Tesla, Far=
aday,Moray, for example ahead of there time. Whats to say there are not peop=
le that live now that are also ahead of there time. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#=
000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FA=
CE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FOR one t=
hink if you study&nbsp; Tesla who was 35 century's ahead of his time you wou=
ld learn a great deal of what was </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">stated.&nbsp;&nbsp; Look at Da Vinchy&nbsp; he left drawing=
s century's ahead of there time.&nbsp; Drawings on that level also exist reg=
arding people that live today. You will see them in time. </FONT><FONT  COLO=
R=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; If you would have cam=
e with Bruce meland the editor of E times in June 2001 when the Toyota Corp.=
 flew him to </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Kentucky and he drove through Ohio where you live to here .=
 You would have saw them then. But they are not being shown now. All new the=
ory is coming. But most will be proved with visual operational demos. Such a=
s all new and different electrical theory . You can see that now being demon=
strated. You would have seen that also if would have came with Bruce.&nbsp;=20=
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear J Carey,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have often read posts which describe something along th=
e lines<BR>
of:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Tachyons are particles which move at very high speeds, s=
ometimes<BR>
exceeding the speed of light."&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This type of descrptions does not say what tachyons ARE,=20=
where<BR>
they are purported to be from and-or the nature of their lifetime,<BR>
behavior and-or interaction with matter, fields, energy and-or any other<BR>
parameters.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From the description in the post, reproduced below, it ap=
pears you<BR>
or someone who you communicate with knows about tachyons.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can you please instruct us as to the basics of the tachyo=
n?<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Are they indeed particles?&nbsp; Where do they are come f=
rom?&nbsp; How do<BR>
those who know about them arrive at their information?&nbsp; What is the nat=
ure<BR>
of their interactions, the span of lifetime? <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for taking the time to let us know.&nbsp; Most=20=
"discussion"<BR>
about tachyons that have been posted seem to be frank guesses.... and when<B=
R>
asked questions the result is word salad or vapor-woofy.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Looking f=
orward to the truth,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; JH&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_4e.1734117e.2b71be2b_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  4 17:25:49 2003
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: It Ain't Necessarily So - Part 2
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:04:02 -0800
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As promised, here is Part 2. It deals with Figs 24-6, but primarily Figs 25
& 26, plus Charles' Mystery and Mystery II. Some of this may soon be old
news as Mills sent me an email stating in part "We are adding details
to the paper concerning the points raised by critics." Some topics below
will have wider applicability, for it deals with the suitability of the JY
spectrophotmeter and the 'gold standard' methods discussed by Zimmerman,
Barth, and Pibel.

Get some coffee, this will take a while. For those in a hurry, I will cut to
the chase:
--------------------------
1. The shift between the H and D spectra shown in Figs. 24-6 are real and
not artifacts of poor calibration or inadequacies of the JY
spectrophtometer. What is important is the reproducibility performance of
the JY in measuring the wavelength span from a standard lamp calibration
line at ~546 nm to the ~388.3 nm bandheads. This is given as +/- 0.005 nm,
much better than the measured .22 nm separation.

2. The peak separations increase toward shorter wavelengths, but the
functions defining the separations as a function of wavelength are very
similar, conflicting with the BLP statement that they are "different".

3. Close inspection of the data in the three figures did not expose any
artifacts that could be attributed to JY errors. The plotting of Fig. 25 is
unsatisfactory, but the underlying data as represented in Figs. 24 and 26
are generally satisfactory.

4. Close correspondence between a spectrum for CN calculated by Charles and
the H plot Fig 24 is seen.

5. Tom Stolper pointed out that if the spectrum presented by BLP is due to
CN, then it should not be shifted by a substitution of D. Item 1) above is a
finding that the shifts are real, not an artifact of experimental error.
Thus there is barrier to Charles' conclusion that the measured gas is CN.

6) While the JY digital spectroscopic instrument used by BLP are not as
fundamental as analog photographic methods used for basic research, it is
adequate to disclose and measure the phenomena at hand, even over a 0.9 nm
span as in Fig. 25.
----------------------------

I begin with enhanced versions of Figs. 25 and 26 which can be found in the
Files section of the email archives. These are best printed out with a color
inkjet printer and kept at hand for reference. These figures present the
relative spacing of the peaks in the graphs as curves, plotted against a
Y-axis calibrated in nm. Red is associated with the H peaks and blue with
the D peaks. Red and blue vertical lines point to the peaks associated with
each ordinate. The distance measured is that from any peak to the one to the
left of it.

The curves confirm what is eyeball visible, that the peak spacing increases
toward the short wavelengths. The spacings in Fig 25 and 26 approximate
different functions. Since differences are plotted, the operation
approximates differentiation. I did not attempt mathematical curve fitting,
as the essential points are adequately seen in the graphs as they are.

It is evident that the H and D cases are similar, but there are distinctly
different features visible on close study, so it is not true that they are
the same, or their differences are just a matter of calibration error, as
Charles has been asserting.

These illustrations were prepared in the following manner. I took the
figures in the .pdf file, enlarged them 2X using the Acrobat magnification
function, and copied them to Canvas 8, a high-end graphics program with
precision measurement features. It provides a readout of the cursor position
in the form XX.XXX. Establishing the origin at the lower left corner of the
plot, I was able to measure the position of every peak with more decimal
places than justified by the quality of the image.

An important point here is that the entire operation is done in the data
universe and does not depend on the linearity of any display device or
printer except of course the BLP printer and scanner. Canvas 8 provides
continuous enlargement, but I chose only integer ratios so that the
enlargement is by pixel replication and no interpolation.

As can be expected, the actual position of the peaks becomes a matter of
judgement as the image is enlarged, especially with the dotted D curves. I
have found that these are not well defined with the limited resolution of a
CRT. Printed curves on glossy paper usually show the dotted curves much
better, but measuring from paper would be a problem with the means at hand.
Actually, and eyeball judgement can be quite good. I took great care, going
back to check when data points seemed out of place, finding some errors of
calculation or transcription.

Having tables of X values, I subtracted starting from the right. Scaling
from the ticks on the graphs themselves gave me a conversion factor between
the cursor readout and nanometers, which was applied to the peak spacing
measurements to give spacings in nanometers. These are plotted at the tops
of the figures. Vertical lines are pointers to the peaks, but the measured
peak spacing is not based on those lines. Horizontal tick marks were placed
on each line using the cursor counter. There is some granularity in its
positioning, but it is comparable with the width of the tick marks
themselves.

Finally, the tick marks were connected by red and blue lines to produce the
curves seen. They are the best representation of the data I can do with the
means at hand and represent a significant amount of work.

In the figures I have represented the JY spectrophotometer accuracy and
repeatability error envelopes as black lines so that one can make a direct
comparison with the scale of the data illustrated. Discussion is needed,
which follows below.

JY Spectrophotometer Accuracy

At first glance, the accuracy envelope (+/-) is comparable with the features
in the curves, seeming to confirm the suspicions of Z,B, and P that the JY
instrument is unsuitable and the source of apparent successes on the part of
BLP. In this context, accuracy has a very specific meaning which I have
discussed with Dr. Linda Casson of JY.
--------------------------------
JY: Accuracy, nm                  +/- 0.05

MC: Does this mean that starting from one extreme of the scan range that a
wavelength stated in an output table (or graph) is always +/- 0.05 nm of
the true wavelength throughout the scan range? In other words, is it exactly
linear within this tolerance? Is this true whether the scan is up or down?
Or is the scan always is the same direction?

JY: Yes, this means than when scanning the entire wavelength range (the scan
is only in one direction, from shorter to longer wavelength) the wavelength
will be +/- 0.05 nm of the true wavelength.

Repeatability, nm            +/- 0.005

MC: This usually means that the system will return to the same wavelength
within this tolerance when executing the same number of steps in the same
direction from a given reference.

JY: Yes

MC:  Drive Step Size, nm           0.00025

Backlash correction           50 Angstroms (5 nm)
(in SpectraMax software)

This is ambiguous. It seems to mean that if the scan is at mid-point, for
example, and the scan direction is reversed, that a compensation in
software is made for lost motion in the drive. It is very large compared to
the
above stated tolerances. It seems to make assumptions about the quality of
the
mechanical drive.

JY: Backlash correction means that if the grating is set to 600 nm and you
set the software to move the grating to 500 nm, it will actually be moved
to 495 nm and then move upwards and stop at the 500 nm position. This is a
large degree of compensation, but it allows the instrument to achieve the
repeatability specification covering the whole mechanical range of the
drive.

MC: If a customer buys a unit and your technicians set it up and
check it out, and the customer then makes a spectrogram of a standard gas
discharge lamp, does your accuracy specification guarantee that the
wavelength of a standard line as measured will agree with the standard
tables for that line within +/- 0.05 nm throughout the scan range?

JY: Yes
---------------------------------------------

Actual construction of the grating drive is stated to be proprietary,
although any owner could open it a look. So I will make reasoned assumptions
for purposes of discussion. JY gives the grating size as ~4.7 x 5.5 in. It
is centered on a turntable, a large gear with precise teeth cut into the
edge. It is advantageous to make this gear as large as possible. JY states
the width as ~ 17", so the gear could be as large as 16". A precise worm
gear engages the teeth. As I have said previously, a very precise lead screw
can be made by primitive methods. The screw is driven by a stepping motor.
JY states that one step of the motor represents 0.00025 nm. The overall
instrument weighs about 100 lb. Much of the weight is internal bracing to
produce structural rigidity.

The nature of a diffraction grating is such that a sine function appears in
the relation between grating angle and wavelength. As this is known, it can
be compensated in the driving software.

Accuracy is influenced by the centering of the grating, quality of the
grating, the distance from the gear pivot to the point of engagement of the
lead screw, etc. Given precise construction, residual errors can be
calibrated out using standard sources and compensation tables built into the
controlling software. The methods of doing this are proprietary and probably
better practiced than by a scientist making a one-of in his lab.
Repeatability is a matter of the engagement of the lead screw with
individual teeth, wear on those teeth, the presence of a lubricating film,
etc. Since turning the grating is essentially a no-load proposition, wear
should be of no concern in normal use. Since the JY software always drives
in the same direction, the repeatability is essentially a matter of always
traveling the same path, engaging the same teeth under the same conditions,
etc.

BLP states that the JY was calibrated with a standard lamp and a laser. The
calibrating line nearest to the range of data is at the 546.08 nm wavelength
of a Hg-Ar lamp. That is 157.58 nm from the window of interest.

Turning now to Fig. 25, where this controversy started, Mills stated that a)
the optical resolution is +/- 0.006 nm, b) the step size was 0.005 nm (p9),
c) that substitution of D for H caused a shift in the band head, and d) that
"the spacing of the peaks changed".

Of c) above, Charles asserts that the difference in ban heads must be due to
miscalibration by BLP because if the spectra are shifted, eyeball inspection
shows d) to be untrue.

Testing d) has occupied several days of intense work, resulting in the
enhanced graphs of Fig 25 and 26 cited above. It is obvious that 1) the
function describing the spacing of the spectral lines is the same for the H
and D spectra in Fig. 25 and 26, as noticed by Charles, at odds with Mills'
statement d) above; 2) there are notable exceptions to the similarity as
discussed below; 3) Fig. 25 and 26 are distinctly different with respect to
the plotting resolution, with Fig. 25 having many problems as noted by Pibel
and Barth.

Because of the similarity seen in the peak spacing, Charles was led to
assume that the general spectral shift was due to miscalibration. The H and
D runs were done at different times, perhaps days apart. Now comes the
matter of the adequacy of the JY spectrophotometer.

In Fig. 25, the spacing of the bandhead peaks is less than the accuracy
envelope of the JY instrument. This casts doubt on the absolute values of
the wavelengths, but does not invalidate their relative wavelengths. While
Charles notes that neither he nor I were in the lab, good practice says that
the JY measured a standard lamp before and after each run. The essential
question is whether the JY correctly measures the wavelength separation
between the [H bandhead and the 546 nm reference line] and the [D bandhaead
and the 546 nm reference line]. Here the repeatability specification of +/-
0.005 nm is the important one. It is seen as the short dash at the bottom of
the enhanced Fig. 25.

It is obvious that this source of error is much less than the separation of
bandheads seen in Fig. 25. It follows that the separation is real as
asserted by Mills, and not due to calibration carelessness as asserted by
Charles.

Looking only at Fig. 25, Charles was perhaps justified in saying they were
"the same". In Fig. 26, differences emerge. The plots in Fig.25 show obvious
signs of approximation. Some peaks are partially truncated, and details in
the cusps between peaks is eliminated by a series of straight-line
approximations. It is not clear if this was done by a plotting algorithm
which located inflection points in the data and connected them by straight
lines, or by human intervention. It is poor data which does not give
confidence as representing a clear view of experimental results.

Turning now to Fig. 26, the quality of the plot is much better, with details
of 'noise' appearing between the peaks, suggesting authenticity of the data.
The X scale factor is different from Fig. 25. The data points in the box
designated Note 1are significantly different between the H and D cases. the
relative strengths of the peaks are different, and the influence of the
longer-wavelength peak on the one to the left, riding on its slope, is
different in the two cases.

I will not pretend to understand why this is so, but the data shows it, and
so it cannot be said that the apparent difference is due to miscalibrations
of spectra of the same substance.

Both Pibel and Barth have correctly pointed out that where measurements are
made at discrete intervals, and a spectral line or the optics has some
spread, that one measurement may intercept the peak intensity of a line and
another measurement may see only the off-peak slope, and so measure
significantly different intensities. With respect to the peaks in Note 1,
this may be true, but the fine detail in the noise below should be
considered. the stated sample step size is 0.005 nm. This is better than can
be transmitted by a .pdf file.

In a separate discussion I have questioned in detail Charles' assumptions
about the presence of 'gunk' in the system eventually resulting in
contaminants in the sample bottle(s) leading to the generation of CN during
microwave excitation. Figs. 25-6 differ in spectral details enough to
suggest that these are separate runs if not separate samples. thus there are
at least 2, H and D, and possibly as many as four or six. Now if
contamination in the tip-off of the sample bottle is the source of the CN
ingredients, it must have happened several times in a similar manner. If the
contamination is in the gas-production system itself, then the contamination
should sow in all samples for every test.

Charles' response to this is all purpose. If he saw something like this in
his own lab work, he would go to great lengths to identify the source of the
contamination, as he has in the past, and he does not see evidence of such
dedication in BLP.

At this point, we are nearly reduced to quibbling. But there is more.

In the File "mystery II" on the hydrino.org website,  Charles presents an
overlay of Fig 25 and " one I obtained from one of the CN references listed
in Huber and Herzberg. I forget the actual reference, but I believe that the
electronically excited CN was produced in an energy transfer process --
collisionally -- and hence it has a decidedly non-thermal rotational state
distribution." While there is an alignment of many of the major peaks, there
are features which are so different that I do not understand his implication
that this spectrum is a proof that the spectrum presented by Mills is in
fact CN. Aligning the bandheads, the next higher peak is at a different
wavelength than BLP's data. Several of the 'CN' peaks are off scale and
split, which does not show in BLP's data in Fig 25. or the corresponding
peaks in Fig. 24. I don't know if the caveats in Charles' quoted statement
above can reconcile the evident differences between the BLP data and
Charles' "evidence".

Now we come to Charles "mystery" figure, a reproduction of Fig. 24 with his
calculated spectrum superimposed. He says "This shows a comparison spectrum
of CN and hydrinogen. I took the spectroscopic constants from the
literature, and calculated the rotational structure, based upon a rotational
temperature of 1000 K. The temperature was the only adjustable parameter.
The temperature only affects the contour, not the positions of the
individual transitions." On the face of it, this is an altogether remarkable
overlay, as strongly supportive of Charles' position as is Mills'
calculation of the wavelengths of the peaks in the bound-free spectrum in
another discussion.

As Tom Stolper pointed out, if the gas is in fact CN, than how is it that
substitution of D for H shifts the bandhead? As we have seen above, Charles
cannot simply assert poor calibration for the differences in the H and D
sepctra. Thus, logically, what we have is a computational exercise
demonstrating a close similarity between the 'CN' spectrum and the H
spectrum BLP presents. But the shift with D substitution is not accounted
for. So there is no closure.

A note about Fig 24. Close inspection of a good printout -- glossy paper --
will show that it represents different runs than Figs. 25 and 26. There a
subtle differences in the 'noise' and relative peak amplitudes, but
significant features remain. There are differences in the details of the
peaks near the bandheads between Fig. and 25.

At this point, it is time for Mills to speak with additional information.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  5 07:50:34 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:47:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
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>At 2:34 PM 2/4/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Hi,
>  >

and Horace Heffner replied;

>  >g x c = 2.94 GW/kg. :)
>

2.94 GW/kg? does that mean 2.964 gigawatts?

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  5 08:53:29 2003
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Subject: "Student's Guide" evaluation copy now available
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See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/StudentsGuide.htm

This is not tied in with the LENR-CANR menu system yet. I am still checking 
the hyperlinks etc. If anyone finds an error in the content, HTML, links or 
anything else, please let me know.

- Jed


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      S.F. man's astounding photo
      Mysterious purple streak is shown hitting
Columbia 7 minutes before it disintegrated

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/
a/2003/02/05/MN192153.DTL



      Sabin Russell, Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 5, 2003

--------------------------------------------------
------------------------




      Top investigators of the Columbia space
shuttle disaster are analyzing a startling
photograph -- snapped by an amateur astronomer
from a San Francisco hillside -- that appears to
show a purplish electrical bolt striking the craft
as it streaked across the California sky.

      The digital image is one of five snapped by
the shuttle buff at roughly 5: 53 a.m. Saturday as
sensors on the doomed orbiter began showing the
first indications of trouble. Seven minutes later,
the craft broke up in flames over Texas.

      The photographer requested that his name not
be used and said he would not release the image to
the public until NASA experts had time to examine
it.

      Although there are several possible benign
explanations for the image -- such as a barely
perceptable jiggle of the camera as it took the
time exposure -- NASA's zeal to examine the photo
demonstrates the lengths at which the agency is
going to tap the resources of ordinary Americans
in solving the puzzle.

      Late Tuesday, NASA dispatched former shuttle
astronaut Tammy Jernigan, now a manager at
Lawrence Livermore Laboratories, to the San
Francisco home of the astronomer to examine his
digital images and to take the camera itself to
Mountain View, where it was to be transported by a
NASA T-38 jet to Houston this morning.

      A Chronicle reporter was present when the
astronaut arrived. First seeing the image on a
large computer screen, she had one word: "Wow."

      Jernigan, who is no longer working for NASA,
quizzed the photographer on the aperture of the
camera, the direction he faced and the estimated
exposure time -- about four to six seconds on the
automatic Nikon 880 camera. It was mounted on a
tripod, and the shutter was triggered manually.

      In the critical shot, a glowing purple rope
of light corkscrews down toward the plasma trail,
appears to pass behind it, then cuts sharply
toward it from below. As it merges with the plasma
trail, the streak itself brightens for a distance,
then fades.

      "It certainly appears very anomalous," said
Jernigan. "We sure will be very interested in
taking a very hard look at this."

      Jernigan flew five shuttle missions herself
during the 1990s, including three on Columbia. On
her last flight, the pilot of the craft was Rick
Husband, who was at the controls when Columbia
perished.

      "He was one of the finest people I could
ever hope to know," said Jernigan.

      It was an astounding day for the San
Francisco photographer, who said he had not had
any success in reaching NASA through its published
telephone hot lines.

      He ultimately reached investigators through
a connection with a relative who attends the same
church as former astronaut Jack Lousma, who flew
24 million miles in the Skylab 3 mission in 1973.

      Lousma put him in direct touch with Ralph
Roe Jr., chief engineer for the shuttle program at
Johnson Space Flight Center in Houston.

      After a series of telephone conversations
Tuesday afternoon, the photographer had a veteran
shuttle mission specialist knocking at his door by
dinnertime. Within hours, he was left with a
receipt, and his camera was on its way to Houston.

      E-mail Sabin Russell at
srussell sfchronicle.com.





Any Guess What This Was?
A beam weapon???
Ed F.





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<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D468 border=3D0>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D308>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DHelvetica,Arial,Sans-serif size=3D4><B>S.F. man's as=
tounding=20
      photo <BR>Mysterious purple streak is shown hitting Columbia 7 minutes=
=20
      before it disintegrated </B></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DHelvetica,Arial,Sans-serif size=3D4><B><A         hr=
ef=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/MN192=
153.DTL">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/MN=
192153.DTL</A></B></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DHelvetica,Arial,Sans-serif size=3D4><B>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></B></FONT><FONT face=3DHelvetica,Arial,Sans-serif         si=
ze=3D3></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dgeneva,arial,sans-serif size=3D1><A         h=
ref=3D"mailto:srussell sfchronicle.com">Sabin Russell, Chronicle Staff=20
      Writer</A> </FONT></DIV></TD>
    <TD width=3D10><IMG height=3D1         src=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/temp=
lates/types/gatemainpages/images/clear.gif"         width=3D10></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft width=3D150><NOBR><FONT         face=3Dgen=
eva,arial,sans-serif color=3D#990000 size=3D1>Wednesday, February 5,=20
      2003 </FONT></NOBR><!-- PAPER LOGO --><!--if expr=3D"('' eq 'pm')" -->=
<!--<A HREF=3D"#sections"><IMG SRC=3D"/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chr=
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MN192153.DTL#sections"><IMG         height=3D36         src=3D"http://www.sf=
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D308><A         href=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cg=
i-bin/object.cgi?object=3D/chronicle/pictures/2003/02/05/mn_nasa-jernigan.jp=
g&amp;paper=3Dchronicle&amp;file=3DMN192153.DTL&amp;directory=3D/c/a/2003/02=
/05&amp;type=3Dnews"         target=3D""><IMG alt=3D"Click to View"        =20=
src=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2003/02/05_t/mn_nasa-jerniga=
n_t.gif"         vspace=3D1 border=3D0></A>=20
      <P>
      <H3></H3>
      <P></P><FONT face=3Dgeneva,arial,sans-serif size=3D2>
      <P>Top investigators of the Columbia space shuttle disaster are analyz=
ing=20
      a startling photograph -- snapped by an amateur astronomer from a San=20
      Francisco hillside -- that appears to show a purplish electrical bolt=20
      striking the craft as it streaked across the California sky.=20
      <P>The digital image is one of five snapped by the shuttle buff at rou=
ghly=20
      5: 53 a.m. Saturday as sensors on the doomed orbiter began showing the=
=20
      first indications of trouble. Seven minutes later, the craft broke up=20=
in=20
      flames over Texas.=20
      <P>The photographer requested that his name not be used and said he wo=
uld=20
      not release the image to the public until NASA experts had time to exa=
mine=20
      it.=20
      <P>Although there are several possible benign explanations for the ima=
ge=20
      -- such as a barely perceptable jiggle of the camera as it took the ti=
me=20
      exposure -- NASA's zeal to examine the photo demonstrates the lengths=20=
at=20
      which the agency is going to tap the resources of ordinary Americans i=
n=20
      solving the puzzle.=20
      <P>Late Tuesday, NASA dispatched former shuttle astronaut Tammy Jernig=
an,=20
      now a manager at Lawrence Livermore Laboratories, to the San Francisco=
=20
      home of the astronomer to examine his digital images and to take the=20
      camera itself to Mountain View, where it was to be transported by a NA=
SA=20
      T-38 jet to Houston this morning.=20
      <P>A Chronicle reporter was present when the astronaut arrived. First=20
      seeing the image on a large computer screen, she had one word: "Wow."=20
      <P>Jernigan, who is no longer working for NASA, quizzed the photograph=
er=20
      on the aperture of the camera, the direction he faced and the estimate=
d=20
      exposure time -- about four to six seconds on the automatic Nikon 880=20
      camera. It was mounted on a tripod, and the shutter was triggered=20
      manually.=20
      <P>In the critical shot, a glowing purple rope of light corkscrews dow=
n=20
      toward the plasma trail, appears to pass behind it, then cuts sharply=20
      toward it from below. As it merges with the plasma trail, the streak=20
      itself brightens for a distance, then fades.=20
      <P>"It certainly appears very anomalous," said Jernigan. "We sure will=
 be=20
      very interested in taking a very hard look at this."=20
      <P>Jernigan flew five shuttle missions herself during the 1990s, inclu=
ding=20
      three on Columbia. On her last flight, the pilot of the craft was Rick=
=20
      Husband, who was at the controls when Columbia perished.=20
      <P>"He was one of the finest people I could ever hope to know," said=20
      Jernigan.=20
      <P>It was an astounding day for the San Francisco photographer, who sa=
id=20
      he had not had any success in reaching NASA through its published=20
      telephone hot lines.=20
      <P>He ultimately reached investigators through a connection with a=20
      relative who attends the same church as former astronaut Jack Lousma,=20=
who=20
      flew 24 million miles in the Skylab 3 mission in 1973.=20
      <P>Lousma put him in direct touch with Ralph Roe Jr., chief engineer f=
or=20
      the shuttle program at Johnson Space Flight Center in Houston.=20
      <P>After a series of telephone conversations Tuesday afternoon, the=20
      photographer had a veteran shuttle mission specialist knocking at his=20=
door=20
      by dinnertime. Within hours, he was left with a receipt, and his camer=
a=20
      was on its way to Houston.=20
      <P><I>E-mail Sabin Russell at <A         href=3D"mailto:srussell sfchr=
onicle.com">srussell sfchronicle.com</A>.</I>=20
      </FONT><BR><IMG height=3D1         src=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/templa=
tes/types/gatemainpages/images/clear.gif"         width=3D308></P></TD></TR>=
</TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D540190321-05022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 siz=
e=3D4>Any=20
Guess What This Was?<BR>A beam weapon???</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D540190321-05022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 siz=
e=3D4>Ed=20
F.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  5 20:10:38 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:07:16 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  JCarey9622 aol.com's message of Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:15:04 EST:
Hi,

>         It is tacyons  that cause gravity not neutrinos they do not relate 
>except both are emitted by stars. And are both power sources.   Neutrinos Are 
>the power source your body converts to electricity that in turn causes the 
>chemical reactions.  

How long can you hold your breath?
(If body energy were truly derived by this means, you should be able to hold it indefinitely). In short the contention is so obviously false, that I have never before bothered to contend it, however this is one time too many.
[snip]
>The core uses them to remain molten.   Those are the base theories.   Plus 
>they make common sense. 

Obviously not.

>There are planets that do not have Natural Magnetic 
>fields because iron deposits are require to produce them. Gravity is 
>everywhere in the universe.
>
> It is very simple Stars are bright which means they are emitting power. That 
>power has to go somewhere. There other power sources mixed in with them but 
>those are the prime ones. Our charged atmosphere is also a power source in 
>its own right. It is charged because of all the lighten  Look at all the 
>electricity that is in the air in dry areas.
>
> Or in a dry indoor environment in the winter time in a cold area. Also look 
>at Nite Line Jan 10 2002 on ABC  You will see a helicopter hovering at night 
>in a dry area in the Mid East the blades are glowing RED. If was in a 
>moisture laden area you would not see it. 
>
> HOW do I know I'm the non tech founder of the Bus. side of an evolutionary 
>new Tech. CO

Remind me not to buy any shares.
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  5 20:14:03 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:11:10 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:47:59 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>2.94 GW/kg? does that mean 2.964 gigawatts?

GW/kg means gigawatts per kilogram.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  5 20:43:15 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:40:59 EST
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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           The co will be private no shares will be sold. and you will eat 
your physics if that is your bag in no uncertan terms. Does your body 
generate heat if so that requires a power source to generate it. ??  Use some 
common sense. For once not what some ignorant book tells you. What is an 
EKG??   Look at the entire dynamic of a living being. You know the big 
picture?  Think past your nose for once.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  5 20:54:44 2003
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Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
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Jack:

I can't quite figure out what you are expecting from the Vortex group 
regarding your recent announcements.


At 11:40 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>            The co will be private no shares will be sold. and you will eat
>your physics if that is your bag in no uncertan terms. Does your body
>generate heat if so that requires a power source to generate it. ??  Use some
>common sense. For once not what some ignorant book tells you. What is an
>EKG??   Look at the entire dynamic of a living being. You know the big
>picture?  Think past your nose for once.

Thanks,

Steve 

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:57:55 EST
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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           Maybe it is about time they improve there base knowledge past what 
now possible worthless books say that they depend on for there facts. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 01:37:26 2003
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Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:41:45 +0000
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From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: "Patent Plus"
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Dear 'texians,

I welcome comments and improvements on the following idea: "Exchange of 
Disclosure".  It comes from my thinking that a breach of patent protection 
can potentially have a beneficial side-effect, that of providing 
independent verification.  If somebody steals your patent and it works, 
then it certainly is good proof that it does actually work.

So, a "Patent" (copyright) says "I have something new (and I also have 
something interesting).  I will describe my new idea to you all (but I 
won't necessarily tell you the interesting bits). During the period of 
patent protection, you may not use (sell) any of the "new" bits."

"CopyLeft" says: "Hear is some interesting information, including full 
documentation of its operation, etc.  Anyone may use it free of charge 
and/or develop it (indeed, please do so) PROVIDED that in doing so any 
modifications should be fully documented and also made available free of 
charge under a similar CopyLeft agreement."

(Copyleft is behind the Linux operating system and has enabled thousands of 
programmers to co-operate and start to challenge the dominance of 
MicroSoft.  It works.)

So to a proposed "Exchange of Disclosure" agreement (EDA), a sort of hybrid 
between a "Non-disclosure" agreement (NDA) and CopyLeft.

On signing a EDA, you agree to divulge info only to other signees, but also 
you agree to divulge any further research results based on the original 
info.  The reason for wanting to do this is to provide a means for 
INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION OF CLAIMS, as well as involving more human 
thinking ability.  When claims are extraordinary they do require hard 
evidence, and that evidence can be provided by any one of a number of signees.

Now what I like about my idea is I feel the agreement is actually rather 
fair; one might quite easily sign up to a NDA, but you may think twice 
before signing up to a EDA.  Endless Parks, Randis and Kriegs who cry "show 
us proof" could be told "sure, just sign this EDA".


Inventors pay very close attention to their own thoughts - why do they then 
expect others to abandon their own train of thoughts and devote themselves 
to following up someone else's train of thoughts?  INVENTORS CANNOT DO IT 
ALONE and therefore, brilliant as they might be, inventions are worth 
nothing until others co-operate in order to develop and produce them.  So 
the inventor themself must do some of the co-operating...!

Inventors rarely become millionaires and with good reason.  After all, with 
telepathy now proven "beyond reasonable doubt", just whose thought was it 
in the first place that lead to the invention....?

Stephen Lawrence, Cambridge, England.
From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, 
CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 07:54:46 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:50:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
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>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:47:59 -0600:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>2.94 GW/kg? does that mean 2.964 gigawatts?
>
>GW/kg means gigawatts per kilogram.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>R. van Spaandonk
>
>When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
>for the man that made it all possible.

I have previously mentioned the flying bed spring, which consumed 
more power, on a power consumed per unit of weight levitated, than a 
rocket, but this is even worse! Please explain again were all this 
power is going?

I would think that since the enemy has chosen to attack you people 
too, you would realize that this is a war to the death, and treat it 
accordingly. BTW, the man who made this all possible was Esau.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 07:54:51 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:50:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: message to Jack Carrey
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Carl Posted;

>
>                  I have his adress heading in a file  i can send if neceesary
>
>      Jack
>
>The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various
>technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries & Clearing.  I
>have not been able to establish a phone number for her.  I have only been
>able to get an address.  It is:
>
>Technologies Inquiries & Clearing
>Delphi Technologies, Inc.
>Delphi Automotive Systems
>PO Box 5
>Troy, MI 48099-0005
>

Cool! does he have an email address?

I was behind in my reading my emails. I just realized who posted this 
message. Jack, I hope that the management of this list will forgive 
me for telling you that you are full of crap! Worse, you denigrate 
people by calling them morons. If you have a working FE machine to 
demonstrate, then you can denigrate established science as much as 
you want, but till then, shut up!

As far as the tachions are concerned, I've seen tachion capturing 
devices marketed. That just proves that the public is quite gullible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 08:33:16 2003
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In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Cool! does he have an email address?  Sure   carlton.speck delphiauto.com, 
> But GM legal is probably not going to let him comment but a  now  Ex city 
director Alex Thomas went with us to meetings with Delphi 
> 
> 
> I was behind in my reading my emails. I just realized who posted this 
> message. Jack, I hope that the management of this list will forgive 
> me for telling you that you are full of crap! Worse, you denigrate 
> people by calling them morons. If you have a working FE machine to 
> demonstrate, then you can denigrate established science as much as 
> you want, but till then, shut up!
>           Reply Tom Crampton has saw it operational He is the Executive 
> Dean of the 50 million dollar new state of the art Tech. center here named 
> after the billionaire CS Mott who was the prime builder of GM.  along with 
> his top ENG. and a Non Eng. Vice president of Kettering Univ. Formally 
> General Motors Institute 

  They could not explain it and could not deny it either.   Testing Protocol 
is being discussed now With the Tech. center. 
THe DEv. WAs sick and passed away SO his fate had to be determind first.  
Verification is only a formality then I'm going  to ride in the box main 
stream theory only thinking into the ground   Because of their attitudes that 
are like yours.  Arrogant    Do you want there contact info. ?  Sorry the 
fact is my experience is I have seen no one that is in the box in main stream 
science that is not a Moron       

> As far as the tachions are concerned, I've seen tachion capturing 
> devices marketed. That just proves that the public is quite gullible.
> 
>    REPLY it means you are clueless about what you seeing  and cannot 
explain it. 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/6/03=
 10:54:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Cool! does he have an email add=
ress?&nbsp; Sure&nbsp;&nbsp; carlton.speck delphiauto.com, But GM legal </BL=
OCKQUOTE>is probably not going to let him comment but a&nbsp; now&nbsp; Ex c=
ity director Alex Thomas went with us to meetings with Delphi </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
I was behind in my reading my emails. I just realized who posted this <BR>
message. Jack, I hope that the management of this list will forgive <BR>
me for telling you that you are full of crap! Worse, you denigrate <BR>
people by calling them morons. If you have a working FE machine to <BR>
demonstrate, then you can denigrate established science as much as <BR>
you want, but till then, shut up!<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply Tom Crampton ha=
s saw it operational He is the Executive Dean of the 50 million dollar new s=
tate of the art Tech. center here named after the billionaire CS Mott who wa=
s the prime builder of GM.&nbsp; along with his top ENG. and a Non Eng. Vice=
 president of Kettering Univ. Formally General Motors Institute </FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; They could not explai=
n it and could not deny it either.&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" styl=
e=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=
 LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; Testing Protocol is being discussed now With the Tech. ce=
nter. <BR>
THe DEv. WAs sick and passed away SO his fate had to be determind first.&nbs=
p; Verification is only a formality then I'm going&nbsp; to ride in the box=20=
main stream theory only thinking into the ground&nbsp;&nbsp; Because of thei=
r attitudes that are like yours.&nbsp; Arrogant&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you wan=
t there contact info. ?&nbsp; Sorry the fact is my experience is I have seen=
 no one that is in the box in main stream science that is not a Moron&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">As far as the tachions are conc=
erned, I've seen tachion capturing <BR>
devices marketed. That just proves that the public is quite gullible.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY it means you are clueless about what you see=
ing&nbsp; and cannot explain it. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 10:14:01 2003
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From: stevek <stevek dlsi.net>
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
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Dear Jack:

I would think that they would be hard pressed to respect what you say 
considering that you fail to demonstrate
a base knowledge of English grammar and spelling.

At 12:57 AM 2/6/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>            Maybe it is about time they improve there base knowledge past 
> what
>now possible worthless books say that they depend on for there facts.


Steve 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 10:43:53 2003
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In a message dated 2/6/03 4:37:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk writes:


             All that is necessary is to show an operational product. PERIOD  
We are not going to tell someone how it functions.  Has COKE ever told you 
how to make their Product In 120 years  "" NO ""     And in our case a 
trademark is all we need  phase conversion Pub. at www.electrifyingtimes.com 
under Confidentual Technologies cannot be explained by science that we know 
of.  But they will not be able deny it funcrions as advertused.  In Bus you 
keep your operational knowledge of your situations to yourself. But Sci. 
types do not understand BUS. At least I have have never found one that does. 

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Hi Stephen.

Try as I might, I cannot think of a situation where
the EDA you suggest might be beneficial for someone
who typically uses an NDA. If you want independent
verification of claims, you have a third party sign
the NDA and do the replication. YOU are thus satisfied
that your device works as claimed, and your investors
are satisfied that they're not flushing their money
down the punch bowl. The third parties NDA certainly
does not prevent you the inventor from discussing
the results of the replication with whomever you like.
Convincing the unwashed masses is the lowest priority
for an inventor, as it does him or her no real good to
do so.

Neither tool would seem very helpful for silencing
skeptics, whom like true believers are starting
with an assumption rather than a question.

But perhaps I am missing something here, are you
saying that as an EDA signee I am required to
reveal replication results to everyone? Or just
other EDA signators? What if, as a third party
replicator, I find the invention doesn't work.
Am I REQUIRED to tell people this fact? Again,
it seems like the old NDA is more advantageous
to the inventor.

I rather like the direction you're heading though;
a "kinder and gentler" NDA may be of some value
for collaborative projects. Why don't you flesh
out an actual scenario where you see your EDA
being used. A model case might prove more inspiring
to discussion.

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Lawrence [mailto:stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:42 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: "Patent Plus"


Dear 'texians,

I welcome comments and improvements on the following idea: "Exchange of
Disclosure".  It comes from my thinking that a breach of patent protection
can potentially have a beneficial side-effect, that of providing
independent verification.  If somebody steals your patent and it works,
then it certainly is good proof that it does actually work.

So, a "Patent" (copyright) says "I have something new (and I also have
something interesting).  I will describe my new idea to you all (but I
won't necessarily tell you the interesting bits). During the period of
patent protection, you may not use (sell) any of the "new" bits."

"CopyLeft" says: "Hear is some interesting information, including full
documentation of its operation, etc.  Anyone may use it free of charge
and/or develop it (indeed, please do so) PROVIDED that in doing so any
modifications should be fully documented and also made available free of
charge under a similar CopyLeft agreement."

(Copyleft is behind the Linux operating system and has enabled thousands of
programmers to co-operate and start to challenge the dominance of
MicroSoft.  It works.)

So to a proposed "Exchange of Disclosure" agreement (EDA), a sort of hybrid
between a "Non-disclosure" agreement (NDA) and CopyLeft.

On signing a EDA, you agree to divulge info only to other signees, but also
you agree to divulge any further research results based on the original
info.  The reason for wanting to do this is to provide a means for
INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION OF CLAIMS, as well as involving more human
thinking ability.  When claims are extraordinary they do require hard
evidence, and that evidence can be provided by any one of a number of
signees.

Now what I like about my idea is I feel the agreement is actually rather
fair; one might quite easily sign up to a NDA, but you may think twice
before signing up to a EDA.  Endless Parks, Randis and Kriegs who cry "show
us proof" could be told "sure, just sign this EDA".


Inventors pay very close attention to their own thoughts - why do they then
expect others to abandon their own train of thoughts and devote themselves
to following up someone else's train of thoughts?  INVENTORS CANNOT DO IT
ALONE and therefore, brilliant as they might be, inventions are worth
nothing until others co-operate in order to develop and produce them.  So
the inventor themself must do some of the co-operating...!

Inventors rarely become millionaires and with good reason.  After all, with
telepathy now proven "beyond reasonable doubt", just whose thought was it
in the first place that lead to the invention....?

Stephen Lawrence, Cambridge, England.
From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England,
CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373


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In a message dated 2/6/03 4:37:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk writes:


> So 
> the inventor themself must do some of the co-operating...!  

 REPLY WE will by showing a demo  If Your interested start talking Bus. If 
you want to know how it functions figure it out 
> for yourself we had to.  WE ARE ONLY obligated to show demos PERIOD  . 
> Otherwise do not bore me and have a nice day.  And NO you do not get 
> control just because you have money. Do not attempt to play a Bus. type 
> Stephen  It appears your SCI. only  
> 
  Linux does it the smart way . But that does not cover every situation

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/6/03=
 4:37:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">So <BR>
the inventor themself must do some of the co-operating...!&nbsp; </FONT><FON=
T  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> REPLY WE will by showing a=20=
demo&nbsp; If Your interested start talking Bus. If you want to know how it=20=
functions figure it out </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-=
COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">for yourself we had to.&nbsp; WE ARE ONLY obligated to show=
 demos PERIOD&nbsp; . Otherwise do not bore me and have a nice day.&nbsp; An=
d NO you do not get control just because you have money. Do not attempt to p=
lay a Bus. type Stephen&nbsp; It appears your SCI. only&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; Linux does it the smart way . But that does not cover every situation=
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:00:45 EST
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
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       Arrogant one as long as you have Tech. situations to back you up.   It 
makes no difference how your grammar or English is. So stick your attitude 
where the sun does not shine where your head is all ready   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 11:12:52 2003
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Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
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In a message dated 2/6/03 1:18:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, stevek dlsi.net 
writes:


> Dear Jack:
> 
> I would think that they would be hard pressed to respect what you say 
> considering that you fail to demonstrate
> a base knowledge of English grammar and spelling.       


  reply   I see you have a jerk off attitude
> 
>  steve  Do you have a couple of trillion in Tech that your going to dev. ?? 
> Do they NO    With know it all opinions and a buck you can buy a cup of 
> coffee  
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/6/03=
 1:18:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, stevek dlsi.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear Jack:<BR>
<BR>
I would think that they would be hard pressed to respect what you say <BR>
considering that you fail to demonstrate<BR>
a base knowledge of English grammar and spelling.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp; reply&nbsp;&nbsp; I see you have a jerk off attitude</FONT><FONT  COL=
OR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
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e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
 steve&nbsp; Do you have a couple of trillion in Tech that your going to dev=
. ?? Do they NO&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With know it all opinions and a buck you c=
an buy a cup of coffee&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 11:34:42 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Satisfying Jack Careys emotional need for persecution thread.
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:49:11 -0500
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As Jack has such a strong need here, I figured I'd
start a special thread for him. Please either switch
to vortex-bl list or post under this thread...

K.

"The Vision of Christ that thou dost see
  Is my vision's greatest enemy."
	-W. Blake-

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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               What your speaking of may be how science works but Bus is not 
that ignorant to operate that way.  If someone wants to know how a situation 
funtions . A Bus situation will say as long as the product functions as 
advertised that is all that is necessary for us to provide. I do not know 
where you people come up with this think from .    

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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:18:25 EST
Subject: Re: "Patent Plus"
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In a message dated 2/6/03 1:47:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:


> replication         No Corp in there right mind is going to let out 
> knowledge how there product functions.  That is a ploy that the scientific 
> comm uses.  to gain knowledge. THis thinking  does not make a lick of sense 
> to a bus type The SCI comm thinks people will fall for this tactitic. 
> Someone would  have to be a total fool to do so.      


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/6/03=
 1:47:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>replication&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No Corp in there right mind is going to=20=
let out knowledge how there product functions.&nbsp; That is a ploy that the=
 scientific comm uses.&nbsp; to gain knowledge. THis thinking&nbsp; does not=
 make a lick of sense to a bus type The SCI comm thinks people will fall for=
 this tactitic. Someone would&nbsp; have to be a total fool to do so.&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 11:56:53 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
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At 9:50 AM 2/6/3, thomas malloy wrote:
[snip]
>>>2.94 GW/kg? does that mean 2.964 gigawatts?
[snip]
>I have previously mentioned the flying bed spring, which consumed
>more power, on a power consumed per unit of weight levitated, than a
>rocket, but this is even worse! Please explain again were all this
>power is going?

The power must be either absorbed or diverted by the "suspended" mass in
order to transfer the associated particle (photon) momentum to the object.
Since absorbtion is clearly not an option (else the mass would diintegrate)
deflection is the only option.  However, deflection over a wide angular
spread can be equivalent to absorbtion, momentum-wise, so the two cases are
very similar.

Suspending an object in a gravitational field requires application of a
force.  A force derived from impinging particles is derived from continual
momentum exchanges from collisions/absobtions.  Each particle carries a
momentum and corresponding energy.  This guarantees an energy/mass ratio,
and, as applied cross time, this results in a fixed power/force ratio.  The
2.94 GW/kg is actually 2.94 GW/kg-f, where kg-f is kg of force.  However,
in the case where the force is applied to hover a 1 kg mass in a 1 g
environment, the ratio can be expressed in power/mass.

The large power per mass ratio that results is due to the high energy to
momentum ratio that photons (or any zero rest mass particle for that
matter) has.  The idea is that photons (or some other massless particle,
e.g. virtual photons) is responsible for the force of gravity.  (This is a
well known concept. One author who rigorously proposed this was Hal
Puthoff, who freqented this list back when it was a serious discussion
group.  His theory was based on zero point energy being the source of
inirtia and gravity.)

At one time there was a discussion of this on vortex in relation to photon
driven solar sails.  Below is a copy of one of my posts on the subject,
which quantifies the momentum/energy relationship for solar sails and other
types of photonic momentum drives. The energy conservation discussion at
the end was due to the apparent free energy that was thought to be derived
by driving the sail (or any other body) by a laser beam, which is
demonstrated here to be false.

Some starting point equations relating to photons and waves:


   E = h nu   (Planck)             (1)

   E = m c^2   (Einstein)          (2)

   lambda = c/nu                    (3)

   p = E/c = (h)(nu)/c = h/lambda    (4)

Assume the sail is 100 percent black, albedo zero.  If photons are absorbed
at rate n photons per second for time t, then the total reaction force is
given by:

   F = (n p)/t                      (5)

and the power absorbed by the sail is given by:

   P = (E n)/t                       (6)

It is of interest the amount of energy absorbed by the sail per unit of
momentum supplied to the rocket is obtained by substituting (4) into E/p:

   E/p = E/(E/c) = c               (7)

Notice that the amount of energy per unit of momentum imparted to the sail
is *independent of the wavelength* of the photon.  In fact, it is
independent of anything else, as it is constant.  I suppose this is self
evident, especially considering equation (4), but it is  important to the
basic issues at hand.  As energy per photon goes up, so does momentum, and
vice versa. They have a linear relationship.

To determine the power absorbed by the sail per unit of thrust we devide
(6) by (5) to obtain:

   P/F = (n E)/(n p) = E/p      (8)

but from (7) E/p = c, so:

   P/F = c                     (9)

and we immediately see:

   P = c F                     (10)

We know that one kg-force is equalto 9.807 newtons, or 9.807 kg-m/s^2.  So
we now see that to produce thrust using photons of any energy we need the
sail to absorb a photonic power per kg of thrust of at least:

   P = (3x10^8 m/s)(9.807 kg-m/s^2) = 2.94x10^9 kg-m^2/s^3         (11)

   P = 2.94x10^9 watts                 (12)

This is why photonic rockets are not so great.  It's the same process in
reverse, as is the case where photons are reflected from the sail.

Unlike particles, the photons leave the sun (or other light source,like a
laser) with constant velocity c, yet arrive at the moving sail at the same
velocity c, regardless of the sail's velocity.  If non-zero rest mass
particles did this it would be obvious that free energy were gained somehow
by the reacting particles accelerating between the time launched and the
time absorbed by the sail. If, with expenditure of a fixed amount of
energy, you can add the same momentum to a departing mass being at any
velocity, independent of the energy initially supplied, you have free
energy.

The photon arrives at the same velocity regardless of the energy cost of
emitting it.  It would appear on the surface, when looked at as a particle,
to have the requisite characteristics for providing free energy.  However,
nature extracts her toll even with the photon, and even at low velocities,
though the effect is easier to understand when considered in context of
near light speed events.  The energy toll is extracted by nature in the
form of the red shift, a result of the Doppler effect.  The amount of
change in wavelength of light, delta lambda, is proportional to the ratio
of Vr/c, where Vr is the recession speed of the departing sail relative to
the light source, the rate at which it departs.  If lambda0 is the
wavelength emitted, and lambda is the wavelength absorbed at the sail then:

   lambda0 = lambda + (delta lambda)               (13)

   (delta labda)/lambda0 = Vr/c.                    (14)

So:

    (delta lambada) = (lambda0)(Vr)/c              (15)

As the recession velocity increases, lambda decreases.  Equation (4)
provides in general:

   (p)(lambda) = h                     (4)

and, substituting (15) into (13):

   lambda = lambda0 - (lambda0)(Vr/c)             (16)

If p0 is the energy imparted when Vr is zero, and p1 is the energy imparted
at Vr, we have:

    (p0)(lambda0) = h             (17)

and:

    (p1)(lambda0 - (lambda0)(Vr/c)) = h             (18)

so:

    p1 = (1-Vr/c)P0             (19)

and we can see that p1 is diminsihed as Vr increases. Further the amount
deltap is diminished is given by:

    deltap = p1 - p0 = (1-Vr/c)P0 - p0             (20)

    deltap = (-Vr/c)p0             (21)

so the incrmental momentum, mother natures' tax, is proportional to the
velocity of recession.  Since E is proportional to p, the same can be said
of deltaE.  Energy is conserved.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 12:29:21 2003
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:22:47 EST
Subject: time not quantized?
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For Immediate Release

Does sharp image of distant galaxy
shred the fabric of space and time?

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (Feb. 6, 2003) --The sharp image of a galaxy halfway
across the universe might shred modern theories about the structures of time
and space, and change the way astrophysicists view the "Big Bang," according
to two scientists at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH).

Their findings might also provide important clues to (and cause significant
upheaval among) researchers trying to merge two of the most significant
scientific theories of the last century: Einstein's theory of general
relativity and Planck's theory of the quantum.

Using Hubble Space Telescope images of galaxies at least four billion light
years from Earth, UAH's Dr. Richard Lieu and Dr. Lloyd Hillman tested a
popular theory of modern quantum physics: That time flows in incredibly
small but finite and measurable quantum bits.

Their research findings are scheduled to be published in the March 10
edition of "Astrophysical Journal Letters," and have been released in the
journal's website.

Lieu and Hillman used images gathered by the Hubble Space Telescope to look
for patterns that shouldn't be present if prevailing notions of time quantum
were correct.

"I fully anticipated that the pattern wouldn't show," said Lieu, an
associate physics professor at UAH.

Instead, when they looked at Hubble images of galaxies at least four billion
light years from Earth, each image unexpectedly showed a sharp
interferometric pattern -- a ring around the galaxy.

Using that data, the UAH team was able to determine that the speed of that
light didn't fluctuate by more than a few parts in 10^-32 as it traveled
across the cosmos. That measurement is significantly more accurate than
should be possible if quantum theories of time and space are correct.

Their findings will create problems for astrophysicists and cosmologists who
agree with Albert Einstein's theory that time, gravity and the fabric of
space are different manifestations of the same phenomenon, sort of like
thunder and light are different signatures of lightning. More recently, when
scientists theorized that gravity is composed of quantum energy "packets"
called gravitons, it made sense that time and space would also be composed
of related quantum bits.

Which brings us to Planck time and Planck length, thought to be the shortest
possible measurements of time and distance. Both are based on calculations
of the most energetic radiation theoretically possible. There are twenty
million trillion, trillion, trillion Planck time intervals (5x10^-44) in one
second. Planck length is the distance a beam of light would travel in that
time -- about 0.000000000000000000000000000000001 (10^-33) cm.

Tying together the theory of gravitons with the shortest possible
measurements of time, quantum theory says time would move in miniscule,
Planck time-sized bits -- like grains of sand passing chaotically through an
hourglass, or a sequence of jittery freeze frames that on average last one
Planck time rather than a continuous, seamless flow.

Scientists say time and distances smaller than Planck scales are "fuzzy,"
since they can't be measured. If there is a finite limit to the smallest
units of time and distance, however, that means there are limits on how
accurately scientists can measure things like the speed of light.

This limitation opens the possibility of Planck-scale fluctuations in the
speed of light, said Lieu. Because these fluctuations would be extremely
small, however, they would only be evident in light that travels a great
distance. The extended travel gives the slightest variations in speed an
opportunity to spread out and become noticeable.

(The same principle applies to racing events. A sprinter, for instance, one
percent faster than his opponents might win a 100-meter race in a photo
finish, while a marathon runner one percent faster than the field would
finish a race hundreds of meters ahead.)

After billions of years, the faster components of a light wave would be far
enough ahead and the slower components far enough behind that the light's
wave front would be sufficiently distorted (or blurred) to be seen and
measured by a telescope.

It was that distortion that Lieu and Hillman expected to find in the Hubble
images.  Not finding that distortion means time isn't a quantum function,
says Lieu, and that time might flow fluidly and precisely at intervals
infinitely smaller than Planck time.

"If time doesn't become 'fuzzy' beneath a Planck interval, this discovery
will present problems to several astrophysical and cosmological models,
including the Big Bang model of the universe," said Lieu. "The Big Bang
theory supposes that at the instant of creation, the quantum singularity
that became the universe would need to have infinite density and
temperature. To avoid that sticky problem, theorists invoked the Planck
time. They said if the instant of creation was also a quantum event, when
space and time were both blurry, then you don't need infinite density and
temperature at the start of the Big Bang.

"If time moves along like business as usual even at Planck scales, however,
you have to reconcile the Big Bang model with an event that isn't just off
the scale, it's infinite!"


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 12:36:57 2003
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Subject: Improved "Student's Guide" uploaded
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Many errors corrected. See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/StudentsGuide.htm

(Please let me know if your browser does not show a new version, or if you 
spot some error we did not fix.)

This is still not tied in with the LENR-CANR menu system.

An Acrobat version of the same paper is available here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEastudentsg.pdf

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 12:52:59 2003
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Subject: New papers also uploaded to LENR-CANR.org
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In addition to the Student's Guide I have recently uploaded papers by 
Storms, Celani and Miles. Oriani just sent me his 1990 paper which is very 
impressive. I hope to upload it soon. The title and abstract are:

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Oriani, R.A., et al., "Calorimetric measurements of excess power output 
during the cathodic charging of deuterium into palladium." Fusion Technol., 
1990. 18: p. 652.

KEYWORDS: anomalous power, calorimetry, cathodic charging
Received May 14, 1990
Accepted for Publication July 26, 1990

A Seebeck-effect calorimeter was used to establish that generation of 
energy, in excess of the electrical energy input, can occur during the 
electrolysis of D2O. The magnitude of the excess power is measured with 
respect to the electrolysis of H2O as the baseline. The excess power levels 
of >60 W/cm3 palladium and excess energies of 74 kJ cannot be understood in 
terms of recombination of D2 and O2 within the calorimeter, other chemical 
reactions, or a storage-and-relaxation mechanism.

- - - - - - - - - - - -


I have a bunch of stuff coming from Miley et al. which should be available 
soon, I hope. It is waiting for permission from the publishers.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 13:22:27 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:17:58 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:50:00 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>>GW/kg means gigawatts per kilogram.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>R. van Spaandonk
>>
>>When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
>>for the man that made it all possible.
>
>I have previously mentioned the flying bed spring, which consumed 
>more power, on a power consumed per unit of weight levitated, than a 
>rocket, but this is even worse! Please explain again were all this 
>power is going?

That depends on the form it takes, which direction it's pointed in, and whether it's coming or going.

>
>I would think that since the enemy has chosen to attack you people 
>too, you would realize that this is a war to the death, and treat it 
>accordingly. 

I see you were gullible enough to swallow the administration line hook line and sinker. Note that the administration has to try very hard to find any link whatsoever between Al Quaeda and Iraq. In fact it would be a lot easier to find a link between Al Quaeda and the US, considering that you trained some of their pilots (don't like the association? - well neither do the Iraqis).
Iraq is not the enemy. They have had twelve years to try and get out from under the thumb of the US, and failed miserably (which shows they are incapable of doing any real harm). The real enemy is the oiligarchy that wants to profit from ownership of Iraqi oil, now that North Sea oil production has peaked, there are political problems in Venezuela, and Kazachstan has turned out to be a bust, none of which was known 12 years ago. In other words, the middle-eastern sources have recently become relatively much more important. Perhaps you may also have noticed that the "softening up" process has started (read propaganda war), regarding Saudi Arabia. Within a few years, the US will be "called upon" (by their puppet government in Saudi Arabia), to help them put down the revolt of the "peasants", ensuring that the largest proven oil reserves on Earth remain in hands of the oiligarchy.


>BTW, the man who made this all possible was Esau.

...and everybody else since. Yes, you can go back that far if you want to, but that won't change who is directly responsible today, and the further back you go, the smaller the degree of responsibility they bear.

People are essentially responsible for their own actions.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 13:44:51 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:38:28 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: time not quantized?
From: "Anthony Ander" <aander newsignal.com>
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Richard,
Some food for thought for you spare time!
Tony

> For Immediate Release
>
> Does sharp image of distant galaxy
> shred the fabric of space and time?
>
> HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (Feb. 6, 2003) --The sharp image of a galaxy halfway
> across the universe might shred modern theories about the structures of
> time and space, and change the way astrophysicists view the "Big Bang,"
> according to two scientists at The University of Alabama in Huntsville
> (UAH).
>
> Their findings might also provide important clues to (and cause
> significant upheaval among) researchers trying to merge two of the most
> significant scientific theories of the last century: Einstein's theory
> of general relativity and Planck's theory of the quantum.
>
> Using Hubble Space Telescope images of galaxies at least four billion
> light years from Earth, UAH's Dr. Richard Lieu and Dr. Lloyd Hillman
> tested a popular theory of modern quantum physics: That time flows in
> incredibly small but finite and measurable quantum bits.
>
> Their research findings are scheduled to be published in the March 10
> edition of "Astrophysical Journal Letters," and have been released in
> the journal's website.
>
> Lieu and Hillman used images gathered by the Hubble Space Telescope to
> look for patterns that shouldn't be present if prevailing notions of
> time quantum were correct.
>
> "I fully anticipated that the pattern wouldn't show," said Lieu, an
> associate physics professor at UAH.
>
> Instead, when they looked at Hubble images of galaxies at least four
> billion light years from Earth, each image unexpectedly showed a sharp
> interferometric pattern -- a ring around the galaxy.
>
> Using that data, the UAH team was able to determine that the speed of
> that light didn't fluctuate by more than a few parts in 10^-32 as it
> traveled across the cosmos. That measurement is significantly more
> accurate than should be possible if quantum theories of time and space
> are correct.
>
> Their findings will create problems for astrophysicists and cosmologists
> who agree with Albert Einstein's theory that time, gravity and the
> fabric of space are different manifestations of the same phenomenon,
> sort of like thunder and light are different signatures of lightning.
> More recently, when scientists theorized that gravity is composed of
> quantum energy "packets" called gravitons, it made sense that time and
> space would also be composed of related quantum bits.
>
> Which brings us to Planck time and Planck length, thought to be the
> shortest possible measurements of time and distance. Both are based on
> calculations of the most energetic radiation theoretically possible.
> There are twenty million trillion, trillion, trillion Planck time
> intervals (5x10^-44) in one second. Planck length is the distance a beam
> of light would travel in that time -- about
> 0.000000000000000000000000000000001 (10^-33) cm.
>
> Tying together the theory of gravitons with the shortest possible
> measurements of time, quantum theory says time would move in miniscule,
> Planck time-sized bits -- like grains of sand passing chaotically
> through an hourglass, or a sequence of jittery freeze frames that on
> average last one Planck time rather than a continuous, seamless flow.
>
> Scientists say time and distances smaller than Planck scales are
> "fuzzy," since they can't be measured. If there is a finite limit to the
> smallest units of time and distance, however, that means there are
> limits on how accurately scientists can measure things like the speed of
> light.
>
> This limitation opens the possibility of Planck-scale fluctuations in
> the speed of light, said Lieu. Because these fluctuations would be
> extremely small, however, they would only be evident in light that
> travels a great distance. The extended travel gives the slightest
> variations in speed an opportunity to spread out and become noticeable.
>
> (The same principle applies to racing events. A sprinter, for instance,
> one percent faster than his opponents might win a 100-meter race in a
> photo finish, while a marathon runner one percent faster than the field
> would finish a race hundreds of meters ahead.)
>
> After billions of years, the faster components of a light wave would be
> far enough ahead and the slower components far enough behind that the
> light's wave front would be sufficiently distorted (or blurred) to be
> seen and measured by a telescope.
>
> It was that distortion that Lieu and Hillman expected to find in the
> Hubble images.  Not finding that distortion means time isn't a quantum
> function, says Lieu, and that time might flow fluidly and precisely at
> intervals infinitely smaller than Planck time.
>
> "If time doesn't become 'fuzzy' beneath a Planck interval, this
> discovery will present problems to several astrophysical and
> cosmological models, including the Big Bang model of the universe," said
> Lieu. "The Big Bang theory supposes that at the instant of creation, the
> quantum singularity that became the universe would need to have infinite
> density and
> temperature. To avoid that sticky problem, theorists invoked the Planck
> time. They said if the instant of creation was also a quantum event,
> when space and time were both blurry, then you don't need infinite
> density and temperature at the start of the Big Bang.
>
> "If time moves along like business as usual even at Planck scales,
> however, you have to reconcile the Big Bang model with an event that
> isn't just off the scale, it's infinite!"



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 14:11:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:08:03 EST
Subject: Re: Satisfying Jack Careys emotional need for persecution thread.
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            This is bus nothing else  k nagel  who ever you are with your as- 
hole attitude what kind of a game are trying to play? Talk Bus. or New 
concepts      Because you apparently cannot   Not BS I'm not that ignorant to 
let science tell me I'm required to tell them how science fiction new 
situations function. 

 So they can steal it because they cannot create it. And is the only reason 
they try that game   They say We have to be to able duplicate it before we 
can verify it. Because the fact is they cannot duplicate because they are not 
sharp enough. unless someone shows them how.  And when i call you game you 
cop an attitude.  stick it where the sun does not shine    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 14:17:45 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 09:03:14 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:49:59 -0900:
Hi Horace,
[snip]
Thank you, that was very thorough. I would only add that if we assume that there is an all pervading energy field, in which there are two bodies in close proximity, each of which reflects the impinging energy, then these two bodies will tend to shield one another, resulting in a force which pushes them together.

>At 9:50 AM 2/6/3, thomas malloy wrote:
>[snip]
>>>>2.94 GW/kg? does that mean 2.964 gigawatts?
>[snip]
>>I have previously mentioned the flying bed spring, which consumed
>>more power, on a power consumed per unit of weight levitated, than a
>>rocket, but this is even worse! Please explain again were all this
>>power is going?
>
>The power must be either absorbed or diverted by the "suspended" mass in
>order to transfer the associated particle (photon) momentum to the object.
>Since absorbtion is clearly not an option (else the mass would diintegrate)
>deflection is the only option.  However, deflection over a wide angular
>spread can be equivalent to absorbtion, momentum-wise, so the two cases are
>very similar.
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 18:51:57 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:46:43 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
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At 9:03 AM 2/7/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Thank you, that was very thorough. I would only add that if we assume that
>there is an all pervading energy field, in which there are two bodies in
>close proximity, each of which reflects the impinging energy, then these
>two bodies will tend to shield one another, resulting in a force which
>pushes them together.

Yes, indeed, I did forget to address that issue.  The shadowing of one
object m1 by another m2 reduces the photonic flux impinging m1, and vice
vsersa.  It might be said that the shadowing occurs due to the photon
(graviton etc.) deflections by the objects.  It is assumed here that the
photon flux is the same in all directions.

The attractive force between the objects is then due to the deficit of
photons hitting on the "darkened" sides of m1 and m2, which face each
other. It can also be considered to be due to the excess of photons hitting
on the opposing "bright" sides.

One thing I think is interesting about this concept is that G might give us
a guess at the photon flux intensity, and thus the energy flux intensity.
Much speculation exists about the ZPE cutoff frequency, which places a
limit on energy flux intensity.  If we knew the power flux intensity, we
could then conversely calculate the ZPE cutoff frequency.

If we have a 1 kg ball with dimensions 10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm we might
assume a flux density on the order of ( 2.94x10^9 watts )/(100 cm^2), with
approximately 10 percent absorbed per cm of matter for material of that
density.  This 2.94x10^7 W/cm^2 is thus a lower bound on the energy
density.  However, this approach is way off base.  The interface is between
photons (or gravitons etc.) and particles of mass, i.e. electrons, protons,
and neutrons.  This implies a cross secion about 1/(10^4)^2 = 10^-8 times
as big for the hadrons, thus a minimum energy flux of about 2.94x10^15
W/cm^2.

How very speculative!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  6 19:17:10 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:12:24 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: time not quantized?
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At 3:22 PM 2/6/3, Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

>Using that data, the UAH team was able to determine that the speed of that
>light didn't fluctuate by more than a few parts in 10^-32 as it traveled
>across the cosmos. That measurement is significantly more accurate than
>should be possible if quantum theories of time and space are correct.
[snip]

>Scientists say time and distances smaller than Planck scales are "fuzzy,"
>since they can't be measured. If there is a finite limit to the smallest
>units of time and distance, however, that means there are limits on how
>accurately scientists can measure things like the speed of light.
>


IMHO, it is not true that measurements involving large numbers of quanta
should have to necessarily be "fuzzy".  For one thing, time itself can be
measured in absolute terms, assuming it is anisotropic, beating on the same
metronome all over the universe.  It is thus feasible to have zero error in
time measurment itself.  Time is discrete.

What is necessarily fuzzy on a small scale is motion, i.e. location
measurement distribution vs expected location at a given time.  If there
are only discrete loci in the geometry, then even uniform motion itself
must be described using probability per quantum time of hops between planes
of loci in each axis of the geometry coordinate system used.  These hop
probabilities are what nature must manage to a high accuracy to achieve the
observed results, not the quanta sizes, as there are vast numbers of quanta
involved in each axis observed in the experiment.

There is no need for the data to be fuzzy at the precision observed if
nature maintains the hop probabilities to a sufficient accuracy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 10:13:30 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:01:51 -0800 (PST)
From: walton comer <trixillion yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: time not quantized?
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For those who are interested, the paper can be found
here:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0301/0301184.pdf

An earlier version is also available:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0211/0211402.pdf

This paper is very approachable and written for
non-experts.  I recommend that anyone with a passing
interest should take a look at it.  This has
fundamental implications regarding the plausibility of
quantum gravity.   The main implication is that the
quantum uncertainty of a measurement on an interval of
time gets smaller as the interval gets larger.

cheers,
Walton

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 10:30:29 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Big response to "Guide"
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There was a big response to "A Student's Guide to Cold Fusion." Through 
midday today, 72 copies Acrobat format were downloaded, and 58 copies of 
the HTML version were viewed.

LENR-CANR readers have been distracted by the news lately. On a normal 
Sunday 150 to 200 files are downloaded, but this weekend after the Shuttle 
disaster only 27 files were downloaded, and traffic dropped significantly 
after Powell's U.N. presentation. Readership seems to be back to normal now.

It is a little ironic that people are paying less attention to cold fusion 
during these crises. If cold fusion had been developed intensively in 1989 
as it deserved to be, by now everyone would know that both oil and the 
Shuttle are obsolete. The cost of oil would have fallen drastically, since 
it would only saleable for another 20 years or so. Saddam Hussein would 
have vanished years ago.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 11:09:57 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:07:24 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER|| Energy of mammalian body 
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	Dear Group,

	It may be well to note, in brief, and in general:

	The primary thermal output of the mammalian body is from the
oxidization of organic, maening hydrocarbons... not "organic" in the
context of types of fertilizer or growing methods... food stuffs.
	This is how the body heats for the most part, there are some small
contributions from mechanical action of muscles.  The colling of the body
is primarily by heat lost through evaporation.
	Electrical signal from the body, ECG, EOG, EMG, EEG and the like
are the result of potassium-sodium concentrations on either side of cell
membranes.

	The heating and cooling and electrical signals can be directly
demonstrated in vivo and in vitro for one's self, should one not wish to
trust a book or other shared information. 

	It is OK to learn about various methods of operation of systems
and further is is a good learning exercise to verify or test or replicate
the assertions from books and other shared information.
	

				Best, in good  faith,

						JH

	POST SCRIPTS:

	OPINION:

	It may not do many persons and cooperative efforts to ignore or
gainsay shared information if you have not made an attempt to seek
replication either personally or from others.

	To say this another way:

	It IS OK to learn and advance one's grasp of the basics of some
given field or endeavor.

					


On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>            The co will be private no shares will be sold. and you will eat 
> your physics if that is your bag in no uncertan terms. Does your body 
> generate heat if so that requires a power source to generate it. ??  Use some 
> common sense. For once not what some ignorant book tells you. What is an 
> EKG??   Look at the entire dynamic of a living being. You know the big 
> picture?  Think past your nose for once.  
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 12:34:56 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Good paper by Oriani
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A newly uploaded 1990 paper by Oriani describes excess heat measured with a 
Seebeck calorimeter:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/OrianiRAcalorimetr.pdf

I find this work very convincing.

Note the source of the calorimeter, alluded to in the introduction and 
Acknowledgements.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 13:01:35 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:57:27 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:46:43 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>If we have a 1 kg ball with dimensions 10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm we might
>assume a flux density on the order of ( 2.94x10^9 watts )/(100 cm^2), with
>approximately 10 percent absorbed per cm of matter for material of that
>density.  This 2.94x10^7 W/cm^2 is thus a lower bound on the energy
>density.  However, this approach is way off base.  The interface is between
>photons (or gravitons etc.) and particles of mass, i.e. electrons, protons,
>and neutrons.  This implies a cross secion about 1/(10^4)^2 = 10^-8 times
>as big for the hadrons, thus a minimum energy flux of about 2.94x10^15
>W/cm^2.
>
>How very speculative!

Landau provided an expression for the energy density of 

-g^2/(8 x PI x G). 

If one assumes that changes in this density are transmitted at the speed of light, then an expression for the power flux of


c x -g^2/(8 x PI x G)

follows naturally. This value is -1.72E6 GW/cm^2.

Taking note of the fact that most of the mass of matter is concentrated in the nucleus, and assuming each nucleon has a mass of about 1 amu, we can calculate from this figure and that of 2.94 GW/kg, a cross section for each nucleon. This is 2.84E-7 F^2 / nucleon. Which seems to imply that most of the flux passes through unhindered, and only a small proportion is reflected/scattered.
(Perhaps that proportion of the spectrum that matches the natural resonant frequency of the particle?). (Signs ignored).


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 13:50:58 2003
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Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER|| Energy of mammalian body 
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In a message dated 2/7/03 2:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:


> .
>     Electrical signal from the body, ECG, EOG, EMG, EEG and the like
> are the result of potassium-sodium concentrations on either side of cell
> membranes.
>        Your speaking of chemical  reactions that require a source of power 
> to occur. When the Tech's have time They will discuss it.  You have the 
> base theories.  I do not care what you do with them.  But To start try 
> looking in that dimension that is beyond the three that main stream science 
> only looks at.  New knowledge is useless unless multi dimensional thinking 
> beyond the three that main stream thinking  uses can be used to look at it. 
> 
>     


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/7/03=
 2:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Electrical signal from the body, ECG, EOG, EMG, EEG and t=
he like<BR>
are the result of potassium-sodium concentrations on either side of cell<BR>
membranes.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Your speaking of chemical&nbsp; reactio=
ns that require a source of power to occur. When the Tech's have time They w=
ill discuss it.&nbsp; You have the base theories.&nbsp; I do not care what y=
ou do with them.&nbsp; But To start try looking in that dimension that is be=
yond the three that main stream science only looks at.&nbsp; New knowledge i=
s useless unless multi dimensional thinking beyond the three that main strea=
m thinking&nbsp; uses can be used to look at it. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 14:08:36 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:05:49 EST
Subject: A preview of a new SCI. world 
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     It will be invention Based not theory based. No one will be told how the 
inventions function. And they will not be able to deny that they do not 
function as advertised. If anyone wants to how new inventions function they 
will have to figure them out for themselves. As the creators of the 
inventions had to do. 

What I'm saying is I do not care for the current SCI> comm and the time has 
come to create a new one.  And since inventions exist that main stream cannot 
explain,  now is as good as time as any to start. The first step is The 
demonstration of evolutionary new situations that will cause the majority of 
our in the box science thinking to become totally obsolete. I think that is a 
good start. What do you think? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 14:24:40 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 09:04:56 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

I wrote:

[snip]
>nucleon. This is 2.84E-7 F^2 / nucleon. Which seems to imply that most of the flux passes through unhindered, and only a small proportion is reflected/scattered.
>(Perhaps that proportion of the spectrum that matches the natural resonant frequency of the particle?). (Signs ignored).

Note, this value is about alpha cubed times what we might reasonably expect for the cross sectional area of a nucleon. Coincidence?


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 14:30:15 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: You did not come with Bruce Meland 
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           John      If  you would have you would have seen the end to the 
majority of current physics thinking and saw totally new physics demonstrated 
visually not in theory.  And  in real world operational situations not some 
purposed theory. You do as you wish but I do not make assumptions without 
knowing all the facts. Believe me the majority of info  in current books  is 
not worth the paper it is written on.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 14:52:50 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: GAO will not appeal Energy Policy lawsuit.
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:06:36 -0500
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40562-2003Feb7.html

"The investigative arm of Congress said today that it would not
appeal its lawsuit against Vice President Cheney, handing the
Bush administration a complete victory in its effort to keep
confidential the identities of private groups that provided
advice in forming a national energy policy..."


Whew, that's a relief...

Here's some associated data.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?ind=E

And the secret list that Mr. Cheney is so
diligently hiding, just don't tell anyone I sent
it to you (grin).

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/contrib.asp?Ind=E&Cycle=2000

Say, that name at the top sort of pops out at you, huh?

K.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 15:06:06 2003
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Subject: Re: time not quantized?
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:03:56 -0500
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This is good stuff, although if I interpret it properly, it seems to remove
some support for quantum gravity and adds support for a purely relativistic
homogeneous space.  On the other hand, I am not sure what it means for
strong or weak versions of the energy of the vacuum.  Thanks for posting
this link, though.

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: "walton comer" <trixillion yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: time not quantized?


> For those who are interested, the paper can be found
> here:
> http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0301/0301184.pdf
>
> An earlier version is also available:
> http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0211/0211402.pdf
>
> This paper is very approachable and written for
> non-experts.  I recommend that anyone with a passing
> interest should take a look at it.  This has
> fundamental implications regarding the plausibility of
> quantum gravity.   The main implication is that the
> quantum uncertainty of a measurement on an interval of
> time gets smaller as the interval gets larger.
>
> cheers,
> Walton
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:07:30 EST
Subject: Gene Mallove and Jed   How about if we possibly make CF fly ?? 
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           C F  doesn't do much  Gene and I agreed on that in 2001   But 
could and Gene Mallove I think knows the ability is here that can.Make it 
FLY.  Because Gene,  Wayne Cochran's  knowledge has been passed on but not to 
me.   So please do not shoot the messenger 

    Gene  found that out when he had our exotic new world changing phase 
conversion tested that his people are still clueless about it. Even after 
they built an obsolete version with instructions from this end. We were not 
going to make it function until our situations came our first. 

 But if Gene wants CF  to function at possibly  high level we may be able to 
make that happen. It all depends on how much Gene or Jed is willing  to pony 
up.    Gene do not let your Giant counter productive Ego get in the Way this 
is Bus.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  7 16:23:48 2003
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Feb 7, 2003
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:20:38 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 7 Feb 03   Washington, DC
 
1. STS-107: THE FINAL SHUTTLE SCIENCE MISSION.  This was to have 
been the last shuttle flight devoted to scientific research.  The 
plan was for the International Space Station to become a space 
science laboratory, with shuttles serving as a fleet of delivery 
trucks, ferrying supplies and crew members.  In the coming weeks 
and months, however, the Columbia investigation will move from 
the failure of the shuttle technology to the question of what the 
mission was meant to accomplish.  What was the science mission of 
Columbia?  Six of the 59 separate investigations were chosen by 
school children, such as spiders building webs in microgravity.  
Another 21 involved commercial agreements.  Let's take a look.
 
2. EAU DE MONEY: "SPACE IS JUST ANOTHER PLACE TO DO BUSINESS."  
That was the justification given by the Reagan White House for a 
space station.  Industry, however, was unwilling to invest a dime 
in the idea.  But, you ask, aren't there all these great spinoffs 
like Tang and Teflon and Velcro that came from the space program?  
No.  An internal NASA report, done for Dan Goldin in 1992, says 
it's an urban myth, concocted to sell products (WN 22 Jan 93), 
and NASA found it worked wonders at budget time.  One commercial 
experiment on Columbia involved the scent of a rose, which is 
supposedly altered when it blooms in microgravity.  The company, 
perfume giant International Flavors and Fragrances, claims that 
fragrances from STS-95 led to a perfume, Zen, and a body spray, 
Impulse.  Of course, the ads can say the aroma came from heaven 
by way of NASA.  Is it a truly fabulous scent?  It is to die for.
 
3. PROTEIN CRYSTALS: THE ONES GROWN IN SPACE ARE DIFFERENT.  They 
cost more...three orders of magnitude more.  We were surprised to 
find that Columbia had yet another commercial microgravity 
protein crystal growing experiment.  We assumed that had all died 
away after a National Research Council study, conducted at the 
request of NASA, concluded that the work had no significant 
impact and should be curtailed (WN 3 Mar 2000).  That confirmed 
warnings two years earlier from the American Society for Cell 
Biology (WN 17 Jul 98), which called for cancellation of the 
program (http://www.ascb.org/publicpolicy/nasareport.html).  A 
story in Science (14 May 99) had revealed that the supposedly 
space-grown crystals used to develop the flu drug were not grown 
in space.  They were actually grown in Australia, which may be 
upside down, but it's not in space.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 05:30:56 2003
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Subject: Re: Gene Mallove and Jed   How about if we possibly make CF fly
	?? 
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 2/7/03 3:07 PM, "JCarey9622 aol.com" <JCarey9622@aol.com> wrote:

>          C F  doesn't do much  Gene and I agreed on that in 2001   But
> could and Gene Mallove I think knows the ability is here that can.Make it
> FLY.  Because Gene,  Wayne Cochran's  knowledge has been passed on but not to
> me.   So please do not shoot the messenger
> 
>   Gene  found that out when he had our exotic new world changing phase
> conversion tested that his people are still clueless about it. Even after
> they built an obsolete version with instructions from this end. We were not
> going to make it function until our situations came our first.
> 
> But if Gene wants CF  to function at possibly  high level we may be able to
> make that happen. It all depends on how much Gene or Jed is willing  to pony
> up.    Gene do not let your Giant counter productive Ego get in the Way this
> is Bus.    


Vortexians should know that this semi-literate person Jack Carey has zero
legal control of whatever it is that the late sincere and accomplished
inventor, Wayne Cochran, had in his portfolio of ideas.  This according to
an attorney from Michigan, who contacted me after Wayne Cochran's death in
December 2002.

Right now we are NOT pursuing Wayne Cochran's work. There are much bigger
fish to fry.

It is a shame that Wayne had to become associated with this nitwit Jack
Carey, whose main function in life seems to be to produce an unending stream
of confused nonsense on electronic forums hither and yon.

Sincerely,

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 08:09:11 2003
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Was Parksie attacking the space program, did I understand him to say 
that nothing useful has come out of the micro gravity research 
conducted on the shuttle? I have come to the same conclusion. This is 
a first, we don't usually agree on anything.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 08:09:14 2003
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:07:11 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: A preview of a new SCI. world
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>      It will be invention Based not theory based. No one will be told how the
>inventions function. And they will not be able to deny that they do not
>function as advertised. If anyone wants to how new inventions function they
>will have to figure them out for themselves. As the creators of the
>inventions had to do.
>
>What I'm saying is I do not care for the current SCI> comm and the time has
>come to create a new one.  And since inventions exist that main stream cannot
>explain,  now is as good as time as any to start. The first step is The
>demonstration of evolutionary new situations that will cause the majority of
>our in the box science thinking to become totally obsolete. I think that is a
>good start. What do you think?

Let me know when you are ready to heat water.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 08:09:29 2003
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:07:11 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: time not quantized?
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I like their results because they match the conclusions of Dewey B 
Larson, as set out in his Recriprocal Universe theory.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 08:39:57 2003
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:37:39 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: the war against Saddam
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Robin van Sparindonk replied:

>
>I see you were gullible enough to swallow the administration line 
>hook line and sinker. Note that the administration has to try very 
>hard to find any link whatsoever between Al Quaeda and Iraq. In fact 
>it would be a lot easier to find a link between Al Quaeda and the 
>US, considering that you trained some of their pilots (don't like 
>the association? - well neither do the Iraqis).

Saddam's goal is to be the next Nebucanezar. He would like to unify 
the Arabs and smash Israel. If that involves helping El Queda, then 
so be it. We aren't making war against the Iraqis we are liberating 
them from a tyrant. What part of the evidence presented by Secretary 
Powell don't you understand? A Modified is a motorhome fitted out to 
be a biological laboratory. El Queda operatives are living in Iraq.

>Iraq is not the enemy. They have had twelve years to try and get out 
>from under the thumb of the US, and failed miserably (which shows 
>they are incapable of doing any real harm). The real enemy is the 
>oiligarchy that wants to profit from ownership of Iraqi oil, now 
>that North Sea oil production has peaked, there are political 
>problems in Venezuela, and Kazachstan has turned out to be a bust, 
>none of which was known 12 years ago.

The corporations just produce the products that we need. I realize 
that the oligarchy that controls the corporations will take over the 
world, but that won't happen until the fulness of time.

>In other words, the middle-eastern sources have recently become 
>relatively much more important. Perhaps you may also have noticed 
>that the "softening up" process has started (read propaganda war), 
>regarding Saudi Arabia. Within a few years, the US will be "called 
>upon" (by their puppet government in Saudi Arabia), to help them put 
>down the revolt of the "peasants", ensuring that the largest proven 
>oil reserves on Earth remain in hands of the oiligarchy.
>
>
>>BTW, the man who made this all possible was Esau.
>
>...and everybody else since. Yes, you can go back that far if you 
>want to, but that won't change who is directly responsible today, 
>and the further back you go, the smaller the degree of 
>responsibility they bear.
>
>People are essentially responsible for their own actions.

I won't argue that, however what part of a war to the death between 
the children of Israel (western civilization) and the children of 
Esau (Islam), don't you understand? There are only two religions; the 
worship of Yahweh (Hashem), may his name be blessed, (Christianity 
and Judaism) and everything else. The prophecy said that the children 
of Jacob (Israel) would follow Hashem and Esau would chase after 
strange gods

I've been sitting here listening to Laura Ingraham talking about the 
American Textbook Council's report on the teaching of Islam. The 
liberals, hate Christianity and that bias shows up in the way they 
give Islam a pass on Jihad, which is a manifestation of their agenda 
to take over the world, and their treatment of women. Jihad is 
dismissed as a struggle against your own personal evil inclinations. 
and women are not the chattel of their husbands and fathers, what a 
crock!

Michael Savage, author of the number one selling book, The Savage 
Nation has made the sage observation that liberalism is a form of 
psychosis. There is no finer proof of this than the liberals siding 
with Islam against Western (Christian) civilization. They hate the 
civilization which gives them the right to hate it. They side with 
Islam which enforces the kind of puritan moral code, which 
Christianity demands, but is to be enforced by the individual because 
he loves G-d. Islam OTOH, enforces this code with the legal code. The 
psychotic liberals totally ignore the fact that under Sharia law they 
would be killed for their various immoralities, because of their 
hatred for Christian civilization.

As I have pointed out previously, Bible Code, which has been accurate 
on all of it's other predictions, says that the Islamists will attack 
us with many nuclear devices in the Hebrew year 5766, which will 
start in the late summer of 2005. That will polarize the vast 
majority or us to do what has to be done. See Ezekiel 35.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 10:24:17 2003
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Message-ID: <1a2701c2cf9e$d0770a80$6401a8c0 cs910664a>
Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
To: <aggroup yahoogroups.com>, <jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com>,
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        <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Fw: [Antigravity] AC Gravity - Push and Pull (Ning Li's Experiments)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:20:52 -0500
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Thanks Tim!

I have yet to read Ning Li's paper. So Li and Modanese *both* suggest that
the Podkletnov Effect is caused by pinned lattice ion rotations..  That is
interesting.

Below is a link to an example of ion rotations *without* superconductors,
followed again below with a link to other numerous examples:

Rotating Cylinder Experiment:
http://rognerud.com/physics/html/rotating.html
Haruo Yamashita et al., European Patent 0486243A2 (10 pages). "Machine for
Acceleration in a Gravitational Field." Filed Nov. 11, 1991, granted May 20,
1992.
The basic concept of the invention consists of rotating an indirectly
charged cylinder inside a charged stationary cylinder.  The inventors claims
a weight reduction of approx. 1% in the vertical position, and a little less
when used in the 45% degree orientation.

Below is a URL for some additional compiled links to other examples (in lab
AND nature, plus some theories to account..) of gravity-like fields
generated from ion rotations and/or acceleration of charge:

Antigravity Associated With Acceleration Of Charge:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/john.bolton/cQLINKS.html

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Ventura" <tventura6 attbi.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:48 AM
Subject: AC Gravity - Push and Pull (Ning Li's Experiments)


> Excerpt from "Taming Gravity", Popular Mechanics, written by Jim Wilson
>
> AC Gravity
>
> "The first thing to understand about Li's device is that it is neither an
antigravity machine nor a gravitational shield," says Jonathan Campbell, a
scientist at the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center who has worked with Li.
"It does not modify gravity, rather it produces a gravity-like field that
may be either attractive or repulsive." Li describes her device as a method
of generating a never-before-seen force field that acts on matter in a way
that is similar to gravity. Since it may be either repulsive or attractive
she calls it "AC gravity." "It adds to, or counteracts, or re-directs
gravity," explains Larry Smalley, the former chairman of the University of
Alabama at Huntsville (UAH) physics department. "Basically, you are adding a
couple of vectors to zero it [gravity] out or enhance it."
>
> Although he didn't call it AC gravity, Einstein's theory of relativity
predicts this effect. All objects produce gravito-magnetic energy, the
amount of force proportional to its mass and acceleration. Li says that the
main reason this energy has never been detected is that the Earth spins very
slowly and the field's strength decreases rapidly as you move away from the
center of the planet. The first measurements are expected to be made by
NASA's Gravity Probe B experiment, which is planned for launch in 2002.
>
> Beginning with the most basic law of physics--force = mass x
acceleration--Li reasoned that it would be possible to perform the same
experiment here on Earth, using ions locked in a lattice structure inside a
superconductor. When an ion rotates around a magnetic field, the mass goes
along for the ride. This, according to Einstein, should produce a
gravito-magnetic field.
>
> Unlike the planet, ions have a minuscule mass. But also unlike the Earth,
they spin their little hearts out, rotating more than a quadrillion times a
second, compared with the planet's once-a-day rotation. Li calculates this
movement will compensate for the small mass of the ions.
>
> Li explains that as the ions spin they also create a gravito-electric
field perpendicular to their spin axis. In nature, this field is unobserved
because the ions are randomly arranged, thus causing their tiny
gravito-electric fields to cancel out one another. In a Bose-Einstein
condensate, where all ions behave as one, something very different occurs.
>
> Li says that if the ions in an HTSD are aligned by a magnetic field, the
gravito-electric fields they create should also align. Build a large enough
disc and the cumulative field should be measurable. Build a larger disc and
the force field above it should be controllable. "It's a gravity-like force
you can point in any direction," says Campbell. "It could be used in space
to protect the international space station against impacts by small
meteoroids and orbital debris."



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 11:35:35 2003
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From: Yakov Smirnoff <rockcast net-link.net>
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To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>, <aggroup@yahoogroups.com>,
        <jlnlabs yahoogroups.com>, <Antigravity@yahoogroups.com>,
        <greenglow yahoogroups.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Antigravity] AC Gravity - Push and Pull (Ning Li's Experiments)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:38:27 -0500
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On Saturday 08 February 2003 13:20, Colin Quinney wrote:
> Thanks Tim!
> 
> I have yet to read Ning Li's paper. So Li and Modanese *both* suggest that
> the Podkletnov Effect is caused by pinned lattice ion rotations..  That is
> interesting.
> 
> Below is a link to an example of ion rotations *without* superconductors,
> followed again below with a link to other numerous examples:
> 
> Rotating Cylinder Experiment:
> http://rognerud.com/physics/html/rotating.html
> Haruo Yamashita et al., European Patent 0486243A2 (10 pages). "Machine for
> Acceleration in a Gravitational Field." Filed Nov. 11, 1991, granted May 20,
> 1992.
> The basic concept of the invention consists of rotating an indirectly
> charged cylinder inside a charged stationary cylinder.  The inventors claims
> a weight reduction of approx. 1% in the vertical position, and a little less
> when used in the 45% degree orientation.
> 
> Below is a URL for some additional compiled links to other examples (in lab
> AND nature, plus some theories to account..) of gravity-like fields
> generated from ion rotations and/or acceleration of charge:
> 
> Antigravity Associated With Acceleration Of Charge:
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/john.bolton/cQLINKS.html
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Ventura" <tventura6 attbi.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:48 AM
> Subject: AC Gravity - Push and Pull (Ning Li's Experiments)
> 
> 
> > Excerpt from "Taming Gravity", Popular Mechanics, written by Jim Wilson
> >
> > AC Gravity
> >
> > "The first thing to understand about Li's device is that it is neither an
> antigravity machine nor a gravitational shield," says Jonathan Campbell, a
> scientist at the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center who has worked with Li.
> "It does not modify gravity, rather it produces a gravity-like field that
> may be either attractive or repulsive." Li describes her device as a method
> of generating a never-before-seen force field that acts on matter in a way
> that is similar to gravity. Since it may be either repulsive or attractive
> she calls it "AC gravity." "It adds to, or counteracts, or re-directs
> gravity," explains Larry Smalley, the former chairman of the University of
> Alabama at Huntsville (UAH) physics department. "Basically, you are adding a
> couple of vectors to zero it [gravity] out or enhance it."
> >
> > Although he didn't call it AC gravity, Einstein's theory of relativity
> predicts this effect. All objects produce gravito-magnetic energy, the
> amount of force proportional to its mass and acceleration. Li says that the
> main reason this energy has never been detected is that the Earth spins very
> slowly and the field's strength decreases rapidly as you move away from the
> center of the planet. The first measurements are expected to be made by
> NASA's Gravity Probe B experiment, which is planned for launch in 2002.
> >
> > Beginning with the most basic law of physics--force = mass x
> acceleration--Li reasoned that it would be possible to perform the same
> experiment here on Earth, using ions locked in a lattice structure inside a
> superconductor. When an ion rotates around a magnetic field, the mass goes
> along for the ride. This, according to Einstein, should produce a
> gravito-magnetic field.
> >
> > Unlike the planet, ions have a minuscule mass. But also unlike the Earth,
> they spin their little hearts out, rotating more than a quadrillion times a
> second, compared with the planet's once-a-day rotation. Li calculates this
> movement will compensate for the small mass of the ions.
> >
> > Li explains that as the ions spin they also create a gravito-electric
> field perpendicular to their spin axis. In nature, this field is unobserved
> because the ions are randomly arranged, thus causing their tiny
> gravito-electric fields to cancel out one another. In a Bose-Einstein
> condensate, where all ions behave as one, something very different occurs.
> >
> > Li says that if the ions in an HTSD are aligned by a magnetic field, the
> gravito-electric fields they create should also align. Build a large enough
> disc and the cumulative field should be measurable. Build a larger disc and
> the force field above it should be controllable. "It's a gravity-like force
> you can point in any direction," says Campbell. "It could be used in space
> to protect the international space station against impacts by small
> meteoroids and orbital debris."
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> 
> 
>
Or you use two of them axially aligned and parallel.  Put a sufficient power
source in the middle, like a fusion tokomak and use it to power the whole
thing.  Not only shielding and propulsion, but also intertial dampening
protection for the crew and equipment.  Make the field strong enough
to tear at the fabric of space and who knows........comments copyrighted
by  yakov....this writer 

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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:58:28 EST
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove and Jed   How about if we possibly make CF fly ?? 
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In a message dated 2/8/03 8:31:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
editor infinite-energy.com writes:

             REPLY    Well, Gene Mallove the God wanna be Editor of Infinite 
Energy Mag. In Concord, NH  responds. It is not nice to call me a nit wit 
Gene. Considering your counter productive ego is so large you probably have a 
problem fitting through door ways. But who cares this is possibly Bus. Call 
me whatever you wish. Actually  I prefer Idiot. But I can explain the 
dynamics of 24 TH. century level concepts that you cannot understand that I 
know of.  

 I see the factual offer bait worked  and I see Earl the Corp. lawyer has 
been busy. Playing his games.   Gene is correct in one sense and totally 
uninformed in another sense witch is the most important one. That is the 
possibly exists of new power conversion and propulsion technologies totally 
beyond any current abilities of main stream science to explain. 

 In a phone conservation with Carl Speck the Chief scientist of the Delphi/GM 
Corp. the other day I asked him point blank. IF  there was any question that 
we were not real and he said NO. I think the Executive Dean Tom Crampton Of 
the new 50 million dollar tech. center here named after the billionaire CS. 
Mott the prime builder of GM would agree with him.

 Along with  Dave Doherty a Non ENG. Vice President Of Kettering Univ. 
Formally General Motors Institute. Gene One phone call to them or the prime 
Tech. back up Developer should  settle the issue.. That No. is 810 701 9432.  
My No. is 810 618 9234   Tom's No is 810 762 0200  Anybody is welcome to test 
our combined abilities. In direct one to one contact situations.  

What Gene is going to find out if he calls instead of running his mouth in 
mail is the prime Tech. back up who is also a DEV on Wayne's level. That 99% 
his bigger fish are probably only minnows in comparison. As Steven Greers new 
toy is also.  Understand Gene the Dow Corning Corp. once called Wayne Cochran 
a living version of Einstein And Nicola Tesla when he showed them operational 
a Star Trec level propulsion situation around 1990.

 Phase conversion is a tinker toy in comparison. And Gene 99% my call is 
anything your working on is at the stone age level in comparison even to 
Phase conversion.  Ken your researcher saw aspects of that tech. Dow saw when 
he was here and was totally clueless. The prime back up Tech. can verify that 
because he was present when I showed Ken aspects. Before going over to 
Wayne's. The fact is I created the bases for the Business side and that is a 
pending legal issue that I have. 

 Because I was promised a CO. of my own for my services. Gene People on Hal 
Fox's level who can answer over the phone Classical physics questions that 
few can. Have provided me accommodations at their homes on Bus. trips to see 
them in 2001 and 2002. Because you did not step up to the plate after your 
boy was here. So those associations where cultivated.  

Along with Bruce Meland the Editor of Electrifying Times. Who I also stayed 
with in June 2002 after he Pub. a story in Aug. 2001  Because you did not. He 
drove here after the Toyota Corp. no less flew him to a near by state in June 
2001. If I'm a nit wit. I do agree I'm not a SCI. type. 

 Why did the elite cutting edge Russian's Pub. my photo on the cover of a 
Russian Sci. Pub that goes to 16 country's.??   They must have saw something 
in Bruce's story. ?  Probably because they are far more advanced in their 
SCI. thinking than basically anyone in the US is. There are facts to back up 
my assumptions. All you have are your opinions.   

Plus Dennis lee was here in one day and stayed three after talking to me 
only. He came Because he needs a system to operate his class act Sundance 
Gen. in order that it becomes A world Class electricity conversion and 
delivery system.  Plus flew us out there for week after your boy was here. 
And you dropped the ball.  

Out there Wayne basically created one watt out for every watt drawn from the 
grid. With no power loss in between. Main stream science does not have a clue 
how to explain a totally world changing feat of that magnitude. Gene You 
stated to the clean nuke reactor DEV. that you understood very little when it 
came to electricity. But your boy Ken is real sharp. I will say that and 
figured out situations we did not think he would.  But the fact is without 
the new  math could only go so far.   

The prime Tech. Back up who had a 17 year association with Wayne does 
understand that new math and will verify that your researcher was basically 
clueless,  in regard to anything he saw or tested. .  Wayne Cochran  who gave 
me his word in regard to me receiving a CO. for my services can no longer 
keep that promise. But  the prime Tech. back up who I'm working with now can 
solve situations such as your CF and Dev. advanced new situations also beyond 
what Wayne Cochran was capable of along with Wayne's situations.  

The fact is and Gene would find our if he called that there are far more 
advanced technologies being dev. beyond Phase conversion. Witch is what his 
Mag. tested and build an obsolete version of. That his Mag. still does not 
understand. That I know of. Gene does not tell you that fact. 

Because there is no known math to do so. But there is new math that will. 
That technology proves the first new electrical theory in a century. And 
solves future electrical demand problems on this planet. Until 2080.  It  
presently can be demonstrated in an independent setting and duplicated but as 
far as I know not by the side the Corp. lawyer represents. Put that claim  to 
the test and find out for yourselves. 

 The fact is  Gene missed the chance of a lifetime the first time around and 
will probably miss this one. Because of his apparent giant control attitude 
counter productive ego. That I found out later from other Editors he had.  I 
apply a great deal of heat to Gene and he has a very thin skin. And generally 
he reacts before investigating, if I pull his chain hard enough. As he did 
this time. When I put him under a spot light in front of his Peers. 

 Thanks Gene Because your making presumptions ignorant of new situations Pre 
judgments as usual without knowing all the facts. As the skeptics Like Kreig 
also do. Gene if I was you I think I  would investigate facts before I opened 
my lack of knowledge mouth and started running it as you did here. 

Or are you to caught up with your know it all puffed up ego. Which appears to 
be the case? My grammar or sentence structure may not be the greatest because 
no one is perfect but I know what I'm speaking about. As usual you have 
forced me to respond in this manor.  

 Gene HELLO  Think Bus. For once not control and  Ego driven snide remarks as 
you usually do. You are the only one that understood the clean Nuke reactor 
Tech. that I sent you. That belongs to a contact.  But your just not a Bus. 
type and did not know what to do with it either. As far as I know.  As you 
did not know what to do with the phase conversion your boy tested here.  

Now your being tendered an offer that will possibly make your CF fly. And as 
usual your dropping the ball. Because of your apparent counter productive 
attitude. As I figured you would. But your fun to play with. And I do become 
very bored and need to have some fun once in a while at someone's expense. 
You were elected 

 Now Gene will probably come unglued on me as he did when someone sent me his 
history that made him appear as a fool. And I sent it to him. It said 
basically he left MIT in a hissy fit because he did not get his way. Should 
that be sent to the vortex readers for their review? So they can arrive at 
their own conclusions. About you. 

  It can be arranged. GENE.  That was a card I was saving but I can play it 
if you want me to. Unless I see a new totally different attitude. Got the 
picture GENE??/ I have had enough of your arrogant S-it. You were sent a BUS 
offer YES or NO I care less what you do. Your apparently not smart enough to 
see past your stuck up nose to investigate. But were when you investigated 
Phase conversion. But you did not follow through. WHY??

 Because you could not control the Tech. That makes ZERO sense. I guess you 
cannot see possible world wide in scope opportunity. The glaring fact is few 
can.  The visionary Chief scientist of the Delphi corp. can but his no vision 
not invented here syndrome having legal Dept. ties his hands. In time I'm 
going to ask him if he wants to join a new team.    

 But do as you wish blow it again. As you did when you went to Vancouver to 
see the nuclear situation there and they told you to get lost. Mallove you 
have the influence to make positive changes on this planet as Greer is 
attempting. But if you attempt to control the situations that can make that 
possible. 

They will pass you by and make the changes themselves. Because there is 
others on your and Greers level that want to see positive changes also and 
will not attempt a control situation. They are among our present contacts. 
FYI Gene and his big fish as he calls them was passed by. 

When the award winning international film maker Mark Elliot came here from 
Melbourne in Aug. 2001. He was backed by the Aust. broadcasting CO. and 
Discovery Canada. He came to  see us during his world wide in scope fact 
finder about a possible planned DOC. about new energy technologies. 

GENE  probably still has not recovered from  the fact he did not have enough 
to interest the film maker.  I think this is my best slicing up job on Gene 
to date. This one may make him  see red and start steaming   . Ken that steam 
coming out of Gene's ears could be used as a new free energy device. Just 
plug him into his CF toys and they may finally function.  See Gene now your 
CF  tinker toys finally work and actually  do something besides being paper 
weights. I solved your CF problem Please send a check.             

> C F  doesn't do much  Gene and I agreed on that in 2001   But
> > could and Gene Mallove I think knows the ability is here that can.Make it
> > FLY.  Because Gene,  Wayne Cochran's  knowledge has been passed on but 
> not to
> > me.   So please do not shoot the messenger
> > 
> >   Gene  found that out when he had our exotic new world changing phase
> > conversion tested that his people are still clueless about it. Even after
> > they built an obsolete version with instructions from this end. We were 
> not
> > going to make it function until our situations came our first.
> > 
> > But if Gene wants CF  to function at possibly  high level we may be able 
> to
> > make that happen. It all depends on how much Gene or Jed is willing  to 
> pony
> > up.    Gene do not let your Giant counter productive Ego get in the Way 
> this
> > is Bus.    
> 
> 
> Vortexians should know that this semi-literate person Jack Carey has zero
> legal control of whatever it is that the late sincere and accomplished
> inventor, Wayne Cochran, had in his portfolio of ideas.  This according to
> an attorney from Michigan, who contacted me after Wayne Cochran's death in
> December 2002.
> 
> Right now we are NOT pursuing Wayne Cochran's work. There are much bigger
> fish to fry.
> 
> It is a shame that Wayne had to become associated with this nitwit Jack
> Carey, whose main function in life seems to be to produce an unending 
> stream
> of confused nonsense on electronic forums hither and yon.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Mallove
> 
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/8/03=
 8:31:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, editor infinite-energy.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REP=
LY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Well, Gene Mallove the God wanna be Editor of Infinite=20=
Energy Mag. In Concord, NH&nbsp; responds. It is not nice to call me a nit w=
it Gene. Considering your counter productive ego is so large you probably ha=
ve a problem fitting through door ways. But who cares this is possibly Bus.=20=
Call me whatever you wish. Actually&nbsp; I prefer Idiot. But I can explain=20=
the dynamics of 24 TH. century level concepts that you cannot understand tha=
t I know of.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 I see the factual offer bait worked&nbsp; and I see Earl the Corp. lawyer h=
as been busy. Playing his games.&nbsp;&nbsp; Gene is correct in one sense an=
d totally uninformed in another sense witch is the most important one. That=20=
is the possibly exists of new power conversion and propulsion technologies t=
otally beyond any current abilities of main stream science to explain. <BR>
<BR>
 In a phone conservation with Carl Speck the Chief scientist of the Delphi/G=
M Corp. the other day I asked him point blank. IF&nbsp; there was any questi=
on that we were not real and he said NO. I think the Executive Dean Tom Cram=
pton Of the new 50 million dollar tech. center here named after the billiona=
ire CS. Mott the prime builder of GM would agree with him.<BR>
<BR>
 Along with&nbsp; Dave Doherty a Non ENG. Vice President Of Kettering Univ.=20=
Formally General Motors Institute. Gene One phone call to them or the prime=20=
Tech. back up Developer should&nbsp; settle the issue.. That No. is 810 701=20=
9432.&nbsp; My No. is 810 618 9234&nbsp;&nbsp; Tom's No is 810 762 0200&nbsp=
; Anybody is welcome to test our combined abilities. In direct one to one co=
ntact situations.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
What Gene is going to find out if he calls instead of running his mouth in m=
ail is the prime Tech. back up who is also a DEV on Wayne's level. That 99%=20=
his bigger fish are probably only minnows in comparison. As Steven Greers ne=
w toy is also.&nbsp; Understand Gene the Dow Corning Corp. once called Wayne=
 Cochran a living version of Einstein And Nicola Tesla when he showed them o=
perational a Star Trec level propulsion situation around 1990.<BR>
<BR>
 Phase conversion is a tinker toy in comparison. And Gene 99% my call is any=
thing your working on is at the stone age level in comparison even to Phase=20=
conversion.&nbsp; Ken your researcher saw aspects of that tech. Dow saw when=
 he was here and was totally clueless. The prime back up Tech. can verify th=
at because he was present when I showed Ken aspects. Before going over to Wa=
yne's. The fact is I created the bases for the Business side and that is a p=
ending legal issue that I have. <BR>
<BR>
 Because I was promised a CO. of my own for my services. Gene People on Hal=20=
Fox's level who can answer over the phone Classical physics questions that f=
ew can. Have provided me accommodations at their homes on Bus. trips to see=20=
them in 2001 and 2002. Because you did not step up to the plate after your b=
oy was here. So those associations where cultivated.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Along with Bruce Meland the Editor of Electrifying Times. Who I also stayed=20=
with in June 2002 after he Pub. a story in Aug. 2001&nbsp; Because you did n=
ot. He drove here after the Toyota Corp. no less flew him to a near by state=
 in June 2001. If I'm a nit wit. I do agree I'm not a SCI. type. <BR>
<BR>
 Why did the elite cutting edge Russian's Pub. my photo on the cover of a Ru=
ssian Sci. Pub that goes to 16 country's.??&nbsp;&nbsp; They must have saw s=
omething in Bruce's story. ?&nbsp; Probably because they are far more advanc=
ed in their SCI. thinking than basically anyone in the US is. There are fact=
s to back up my assumptions. All you have are your opinions.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR=
>
<BR>
Plus Dennis lee was here in one day and stayed three after talking to me onl=
y. He came Because he needs a system to operate his class act Sundance Gen.=20=
in order that it becomes A world Class electricity conversion and delivery s=
ystem.&nbsp; Plus flew us out there for week after your boy was here. And yo=
u dropped the ball.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Out there Wayne basically created one watt out for every watt drawn from the=
 grid. With no power loss in between. Main stream science does not have a cl=
ue how to explain a totally world changing feat of that magnitude. Gene You=20=
stated to the clean nuke reactor DEV. that you understood very little when i=
t came to electricity. But your boy Ken is real sharp. I will say that and f=
igured out situations we did not think he would.&nbsp; But the fact is witho=
ut the new&nbsp; math could only go so far.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The prime Tech. Back up who had a 17 year association with Wayne does unders=
tand that new math and will verify that your researcher was basically cluele=
ss,&nbsp; in regard to anything he saw or tested. .&nbsp; Wayne Cochran&nbsp=
; who gave me his word in regard to me receiving a CO. for my services can n=
o longer keep that promise. But&nbsp; the prime Tech. back up who I'm workin=
g with now can solve situations such as your CF and Dev. advanced new situat=
ions also beyond what Wayne Cochran was capable of along with Wayne's situat=
ions.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The fact is and Gene would find our if he called that there are far more adv=
anced technologies being dev. beyond Phase conversion. Witch is what his Mag=
. tested and build an obsolete version of. That his Mag. still does not unde=
rstand. That I know of. Gene does not tell you that fact. <BR>
<BR>
Because there is no known math to do so. But there is new math that will. Th=
at technology proves the first new electrical theory in a century. And solve=
s future electrical demand problems on this planet. Until 2080.&nbsp; It&nbs=
p; presently can be demonstrated in an independent setting and duplicated bu=
t as far as I know not by the side the Corp. lawyer represents. Put that cla=
im&nbsp; to the test and find out for yourselves. <BR>
<BR>
 The fact is&nbsp; Gene missed the chance of a lifetime the first time aroun=
d and will probably miss this one. Because of his apparent giant control att=
itude counter productive ego. That I found out later from other Editors he h=
ad.&nbsp; I apply a great deal of heat to Gene and he has a very thin skin.=20=
And generally he reacts before investigating, if I pull his chain hard enoug=
h. As he did this time. When I put him under a spot light in front of his Pe=
ers. <BR>
<BR>
 Thanks Gene Because your making presumptions ignorant of new situations Pre=
 judgments as usual without knowing all the facts. As the skeptics Like Krei=
g also do. Gene if I was you I think I&nbsp; would investigate facts before=20=
I opened my lack of knowledge mouth and started running it as you did here.=20=
<BR>
<BR>
Or are you to caught up with your know it all puffed up ego. Which appears t=
o be the case? My grammar or sentence structure may not be the greatest beca=
use no one is perfect but I know what I'm speaking about. As usual you have=20=
forced me to respond in this manor.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Gene HELLO&nbsp; Think Bus. For once not control and&nbsp; Ego driven snide=
 remarks as you usually do. You are the only one that understood the clean N=
uke reactor Tech. that I sent you. That belongs to a contact.&nbsp; But your=
 just not a Bus. type and did not know what to do with it either. As far as=20=
I know.&nbsp; As you did not know what to do with the phase conversion your=20=
boy tested here.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Now your being tendered an offer that will possibly make your CF fly. And as=
 usual your dropping the ball. Because of your apparent counter productive a=
ttitude. As I figured you would. But your fun to play with. And I do become=20=
very bored and need to have some fun once in a while at someone's expense. Y=
ou were elected <BR>
<BR>
 Now Gene will probably come unglued on me as he did when someone sent me hi=
s history that made him appear as a fool. And I sent it to him. It said basi=
cally he left MIT in a hissy fit because he did not get his way. Should that=
 be sent to the vortex readers for their review? So they can arrive at their=
 own conclusions. About you. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; It can be arranged. GENE.&nbsp; That was a card I was saving but I ca=
n play it if you want me to. Unless I see a new totally different attitude.=20=
Got the picture GENE??/ I have had enough of your arrogant S-it. You were se=
nt a BUS offer YES or NO I care less what you do. Your apparently not smart=20=
enough to see past your stuck up nose to investigate. But were when you inve=
stigated Phase conversion. But you did not follow through. WHY??<BR>
<BR>
 Because you could not control the Tech. That makes ZERO sense. I guess you=20=
cannot see possible world wide in scope opportunity. The glaring fact is few=
 can.&nbsp; The visionary Chief scientist of the Delphi corp. can but his no=
 vision not invented here syndrome having legal Dept. ties his hands. In tim=
e I'm going to ask him if he wants to join a new team.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR=
>
<BR>
 But do as you wish blow it again. As you did when you went to Vancouver to=20=
see the nuclear situation there and they told you to get lost. Mallove you h=
ave the influence to make positive changes on this planet as Greer is attemp=
ting. But if you attempt to control the situations that can make that possib=
le. <BR>
<BR>
They will pass you by and make the changes themselves. Because there is othe=
rs on your and Greers level that want to see positive changes also and will=20=
not attempt a control situation. They are among our present contacts. FYI Ge=
ne and his big fish as he calls them was passed by. <BR>
<BR>
When the award winning international film maker Mark Elliot came here from M=
elbourne in Aug. 2001. He was backed by the Aust. broadcasting CO. and Disco=
very Canada. He came to&nbsp; see us during his world wide in scope fact fin=
der about a possible planned DOC. about new energy technologies. <BR>
<BR>
GENE&nbsp; probably still has not recovered from&nbsp; the fact he did not h=
ave enough to interest the film maker.&nbsp; I think this is my best slicing=
 up job on Gene to date. This one may make him&nbsp; see red and start steam=
ing&nbsp;&nbsp; . Ken that steam coming out of Gene's ears could be used as=20=
a new free energy device. Just plug him into his CF toys and they may finall=
y function.&nbsp; See Gene now your CF&nbsp; tinker toys finally work and ac=
tually&nbsp; do something besides being paper weights. I solved your CF prob=
lem Please send a check.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">C F&nbsp; doesn't do much&nbsp;=
 Gene and I agreed on that in 2001&nbsp;&nbsp; But<BR>
&gt; could and Gene Mallove I think knows the ability is here that can.Make=20=
it<BR>
&gt; FLY.&nbsp; Because Gene,&nbsp; Wayne Cochran's&nbsp; knowledge has been=
 passed on but not to<BR>
&gt; me.&nbsp;&nbsp; So please do not shoot the messenger<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gene&nbsp; found that out when he had our exotic new world=20=
changing phase<BR>
&gt; conversion tested that his people are still clueless about it. Even aft=
er<BR>
&gt; they built an obsolete version with instructions from this end. We were=
 not<BR>
&gt; going to make it function until our situations came our first.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; But if Gene wants CF&nbsp; to function at possibly&nbsp; high level we=20=
may be able to<BR>
&gt; make that happen. It all depends on how much Gene or Jed is willing&nbs=
p; to pony<BR>
&gt; up.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gene do not let your Giant counter productive Ego=
 get in the Way this<BR>
&gt; is Bus.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Vortexians should know that this semi-literate person Jack Carey has zero<BR=
>
legal control of whatever it is that the late sincere and accomplished<BR>
inventor, Wayne Cochran, had in his portfolio of ideas.&nbsp; This according=
 to<BR>
an attorney from Michigan, who contacted me after Wayne Cochran's death in<B=
R>
December 2002.<BR>
<BR>
Right now we are NOT pursuing Wayne Cochran's work. There are much bigger<BR=
>
fish to fry.<BR>
<BR>
It is a shame that Wayne had to become associated with this nitwit Jack<BR>
Carey, whose main function in life seems to be to produce an unending stream=
<BR>
of confused nonsense on electronic forums hither and yon.<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
Gene Mallove<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_15e.1b71dd4b.2b76bb64_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 12:23:17 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <123.1de7dc6d.2b76c047 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 15:19:19 EST
Subject: Re: A preview of a new SCI. world
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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              Water heater elememts  will burn up if you send 3 phase power 
to them.  But a stove has a far higher heat range and will not.     We can 
run 3 phase EQ with only a fraction of what is normally required witch is 
what phase conversion is for. 

OR connect it to a gen. that will convert it into single phase.  But there is 
not excess power now the unit of electricity is being burned at 99% level as 
a gas fire place you buy at say Lowes burns 99% of the cube of gas  It is the 
same theory   Where as now a great deal of the unit of electricity is being 
wasted now it is not. It is called high EFF. not OU witch is a giant misnomer 
and totally needs to be discarded as a form of thinking.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 12:40:42 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Resent-Message-ID: <"Cq76E2.0.pu5.RgMH-" mx1>
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At 7:57 AM 2/8/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:46:43 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>If we have a 1 kg ball with dimensions 10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm we might
>>assume a flux density on the order of ( 2.94x10^9 watts )/(100 cm^2), with
>>approximately 10 percent absorbed per cm of matter for material of that
>>density.  This 2.94x10^7 W/cm^2 is thus a lower bound on the energy
>>density.  However, this approach is way off base.  The interface is between
>>photons (or gravitons etc.) and particles of mass, i.e. electrons, protons,
>>and neutrons.  This implies a cross secion about 1/(10^4)^2 = 10^-8 times
>>as big for the hadrons, thus a minimum energy flux of about 2.94x10^15
>>W/cm^2.
>>
>>How very speculative!
>
>Landau provided an expression for the energy density of
>
>-g^2/(8 x PI x G).
>
>If one assumes that changes in this density are transmitted at the speed
>of light, then an expression for the power flux of
>
>
>c x -g^2/(8 x PI x G)
>
>follows naturally. This value is -1.72E6 GW/cm^2.


Interesting that 2 differing speculations are so close.


>
>Taking note of the fact that most of the mass of matter is concentrated in
>the nucleus, and assuming each nucleon has a mass of about 1 amu, we can
>calculate from this figure and that of 2.94 GW/kg, a cross section for
>each nucleon. This is 2.84E-7 F^2 / nucleon. Which seems to imply that
>most of the flux passes through unhindered, and only a small proportion is
>reflected/scattered.
>(Perhaps that proportion of the spectrum that matches the natural resonant
>frequency of the particle?). (Signs ignored).


Result actually a quark cross-section?  That is to say 2.84E-7 F^2 / (3
quarks) =~ 1e-7 F^2/quark.  Makes more sense, in that interactions with
neutrons would seem to be significantly different than those with protons
and/or electrons, but when reduced to the level of quarks it may not be so
different?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 14:37:58 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 09:35:10 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:37:39 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>Saddam's goal is to be the next Nebucanezar. He would like to unify 
>the Arabs and smash Israel. 

Fat chance of either. In fact if anyone succeeds in unifying the Arabs,
it will George W.

>If that involves helping El Queda, then 
>so be it. We aren't making war against the Iraqis we are liberating 
>them from a tyrant. 

Administration line again, and also the same line used by nearly every invading force throughout history. It's also pure BS. You don't need a hundred thousand men to remove a tyrant, a small remotely controlled model plane with an explosive and a TV camera will do the job, at a cost of a few thousand bucks, and the administration knows this. However you do need an army to "liberate" a country's resources.

>What part of the evidence presented by Secretary 
>Powell don't you understand? A Modified is a motorhome fitted out to 
>be a biological laboratory. El Queda operatives are living in Iraq.

And also in the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Germany, Britain, Italy,
several African countries, and the US, does that mean you are going to go to war with yourself as well?
And as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the US couldn't be more hypocritical. It holds the largest stores of such weapons of any nation on Earth.
Face it, this war has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. That's just the excuse. A red herring designed for local public consumption in the US designed to play upon your fears after 911.
[snip]
>The corporations just produce the products that we need. I realize 
>that the oligarchy that controls the corporations will take over the 
>world, but that won't happen until the fulness of time.

...and over my dead body.
[snip]
>I won't argue that, however what part of a war to the death between 
>the children of Israel (western civilization) and the children of 
>Esau (Islam), don't you understand? 

What part don't you understand of the fact that throughout history religion has been used as an excuse for wars that were really all about acquisition of resources? That's because if you tell the average man on the street that you want him to lay down his life so that you can get richer, he will laugh in your face, but if you tell him that his immortal soul is in danger from the 
"heathen enemy", he will lay down his life willingly.
People have been played for fools for thousands of years. It appears you are no exception.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 19:53:49 2003
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Message-ID: <20030209035046.7154.qmail web40402.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:50:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> And as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the US
> couldn't be more hypocritical. It holds the largest stores of such
> weapons of any nation on Earth.

Whoops...  The big picture sliped through the cracks here.  

     Before you flame me understand that I am against action in Iraq
(currently) but largely for reasons other then you have been descussing. 
 
It is not the weapons we are woried about but simply the fact that they
are in the hands of a loonitic and all are intended to kill mass numbers
of americans. Remember just who declared war on whom.  

DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. 

Also...  Every other country in the world is transparent about there
weapons destructave capabilities.  Every other country in the world
reports this information through the treaty orginization.  Even Nort
Koria tells it like it is and will (if we are carefull) eventually sign
into the treaty.

You see these weapons are not intended for use.  They are a deturant.  A
rather large one at that...  But still there are KoOkS who want to
destroy.  

What is Saddams problem?   HE - is bent on killing Americans.   But  
some wold have it that way also, and It looks like the rest of the world
would have us lower our guard and just let him do it. Several thousand
Americans in one shot wasn't enough.

Ah but the death of man is that he forgets.




=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 22:47:18 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power?
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 17:45:05 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:36:51 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>Result actually a quark cross-section?  That is to say 2.84E-7 F^2 / (3
>quarks) =~ 1e-7 F^2/quark.  Makes more sense, in that interactions with
>neutrons would seem to be significantly different than those with protons
>and/or electrons, but when reduced to the level of quarks it may not be so
>different?
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
I agree, also a valid possibility, at least until such time as quarks may be proven to have structure themselves.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  8 23:05:03 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational power? THE ANSWER 
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:02:29 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  JCarey9622 aol.com's message of Wed, 5 Feb 2003 23:40:59 EST:
Hi,
[snip]

>           The co will be private no shares will be sold. and you will eat 
>your physics if that is your bag in no uncertan terms. 

Jack, I hope more than you can know, that you do indeed have breakthrough physics applications in the pipeline.

>Does your body 
>generate heat if so that requires a power source to generate it. ??  Use some 
>common sense. 

I did, that's how I came up with "hold your breath" proof.

>For once not what some ignorant book tells you. 

Breathing comes naturally, not from a book. ;)

>What is an 
>EKG??   Look at the entire dynamic of a living being. You know the big 
>picture?  Think past your nose for once. 

A bit difficult in my case, I have a big nose :)


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  9 00:08:04 2003
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 03:05:46 EST
Subject: Re: The latest edition of What's New
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Dr. Park has for some time attacked the shuttle program and the ISS as 
"squatting in low Earth orbit."

Erik

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <3b.33318ffe.2b77e70a aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:16:58 EST
Subject: A wet dream about  In the box  Eng. And Phy skeptics 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com, karn@ka9q.net,
        jgiglio nova.umuc.edu, opa@aps.org, borderschess@hotmail.com,
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In a message dated 2/9/03 2:04:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:


> Jack, I hope more than you can know, that you do indeed have breakthrough 
> physics applications in the pipeline.
> 
>     Well thank you R van S.  We will not let you down.    We will deliver 
Sir.  The ENG. and Phy. skeptics do not want us to. Because if we deliver 
their theory only supported worlds witch is all they know would come crashing 
down on them.  . If that happens they would no longer be experts and their 
creditability would disappear in smoke. Then their giant arrogant ego's would 
be crushed.  

 I have earned a front row seat to what should be the party of the century.  
I can see it now 1929 recreated but this time it will be in the box Eng. And 
Phy. jumping out of high rise buildings. Clinging to all their theory books 
and spouting them until they go spat on the pavement.

 Your invited also but you must bring beer, popcorn and exotic dancers. I 
think Eric Kreig , Bob Park, PILL PILL Karn and Vcrepair  should jump hand 
and hand spouting theory like a barber shop quartet as a grand finally.      


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/9/03=
 2:04:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack, I hope more than you can=20=
know, that you do indeed have breakthrough physics applications in the pipel=
ine.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Well thank you R van S.&nbsp; We will not le=
t you down.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We will deliver Sir.&nbsp; The ENG. and Phy. s=
keptics do not want us to. Because if we deliver their theory only supported=
 worlds witch is all they know would come crashing down on them.&nbsp; . If=20=
that happens they would no longer be experts and their creditability would d=
isappear in smoke. Then their giant arrogant ego's would be crushed.&nbsp; <=
BR>
<BR>
 I have earned a front row seat to what should be the party of the century.&=
nbsp; I can see it now 1929 recreated but this time it will be in the box En=
g. And Phy. jumping out of high rise buildings. Clinging to all their theory=
 books and spouting them until they go spat on the pavement.<BR>
<BR>
 Your invited also but you must bring beer, popcorn and exotic dancers. I th=
ink Eric Kreig , Bob Park, PILL PILL Karn and Vcrepair&nbsp; should jump han=
d and hand spouting theory like a barber shop quartet as a grand finally.&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  9 12:16:33 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:11:35 +1100
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:50:46 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>> And as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the US
>> couldn't be more hypocritical. It holds the largest stores of such
>> weapons of any nation on Earth.
>
>Whoops...  The big picture sliped through the cracks here.  

On the contrary, it is being painted clearly despite your administration's (and mine) best efforts to muddy the waters.

>
>     Before you flame me understand that I am against action in Iraq
>(currently) but largely for reasons other then you have been descussing.

I'm not flaming anyone. Just saying it as I see it.
 
> 
>It is not the weapons we are woried about but simply the fact that they
>are in the hands of a loonitic and all are intended to kill mass numbers
>of americans. Remember just who declared war on whom.

To the best of my knowledge Iraq has not declared war on the US (or anyone else for that matter). 911 had nothing to do with Iraq. Even your own administration initially went for Afghanistan, not Iraq.
As for declaring war, it is GW who is making all the noises.

>
>DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. 

Why should he not be accorded the same presumption you demand for yourself?

>
>Also...  Every other country in the world is transparent about there
>weapons destructave capabilities.  

That remains to be seen.

>Every other country in the world
>reports this information through the treaty orginization.  Even Nort
>Koria tells it like it is and will (if we are carefull) eventually sign
>into the treaty.
>
>You see these weapons are not intended for use.  They are a deturant.  A
>rather large one at that...  But still there are KoOkS who want to
>destroy. 

If Iraq has such weapons, what makes you think they are not also intended as a deterrent? (He had them in '91, and didn't use them, despite being at war with UN forces led by the US).

>
>What is Saddams problem?   HE - is bent on killing Americans. 

Find even a single statement made by him to that effect.

>  But  
>some wold have it that way also, and It looks like the rest of the world
>would have us lower our guard and just let him do it. Several thousand
>Americans in one shot wasn't enough.

Once again that was not Iraq's doing, and it has taken over a year for your own administration to slowly but surely generate the association in the minds 
of the US public that Iraq is linked to 911.
Based on your own statement here, I appears they are succeeding.

>
>Ah but the death of man is that he forgets.

No the death of man is that he is so easily conned.

BTW I am just as angry with my own government as I am with your's.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  9 20:33:25 2003
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Subject: Re: Building The Great Pyramids Using Electrostatics?
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Fred wrote:

>If you rub a limestone block with a silk cloth or animal fur you can
>build up an appreciable positive charge on it.

>No?  :-)

>Fred

Nice idea Fred, but no cigar. Limestone, marble, and related calcium carbonate rocks are quite conductive at the voltages required to cause that much repulsion.  After all, why do you think they call it "ground"? ;)

M.




_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> >     Before you flame me understand that I am against action in Iraq
> >(currently) but largely for reasons other then you have been
> descussing.
> 
> I'm not flaming anyone. Just saying it as I see it.

Robin:  This statement was not meant for you.  It was only to avoid the
30 or so direct flames you get when you speak against the flow.

> >It is not the weapons we are woried about but simply the fact that
> they
> >are in the hands of a loonitic and all are intended to kill mass
> numbers
> >of americans. Remember just who declared war on whom.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge Iraq has not declared war on the US (or
> anyone else for that matter). 911 had nothing to do with Iraq. Even
> your own administration initially went for Afghanistan, not Iraq.
> As for declaring war, it is GW who is making all the noises.

He has.  He did so 10 years ago and repeats the declaration whenever he
speaks to "the people"  

> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. 
> 
> Why should he not be accorded the same presumption you demand for
> yourself?

The following statement applies to this...

> >Also...  Every other country in the world is transparent about there
> >weapons destructave capabilities.  


> If Iraq has such weapons, what makes you think they are not also
> intended as a deterrent? (He had them in '91, and didn't use them,
> despite being at war with UN forces led by the US).

History.  He has used chemical weapons on his own people.  The best
predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

> >What is Saddams problem?   HE - is bent on killing Americans. 
> 
> Find even a single statement made by him to that effect.
 
Watch the tapes of his public speaches. 
 
> Once again that was not Iraq's doing, and it has taken over a year for
> your own administration to slowly but surely generate the association
> in the minds of the US public that Iraq is linked to 911.

Oh contrare.  Most of us suspected it that same september day.  Because
Saddam had and has continued to evade and deceive and spit words of war
in our direction.  In fact it took Bin ladins trading movements in the
market to link him to the attack.  

> 
> Based on your own statement here, I appears they are succeeding.
> 

Watch ou also for the media.  Which is always against whatever it is the
us.gov is doing.  They will use the common falicies you just have to
notice them. 

There is more then one con going on here.

Finally there is the reasons I opose action.  Those reasons that I did
not discuss in the previous message.  

There is not enough proof.  Before you go to war your "just cause" must
be overwhelming.  In the US we convict a murderer if the evidance is
"beyond all reasonable doubt"  but Buch continues to press for war based
on evidance that is so soft you couldn't even make an arrest.  

Why?   You will find it is not about oil. 

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:19:07 +1100
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:55:18 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>> To the best of my knowledge Iraq has not declared war on the US (or
>> anyone else for that matter). 911 had nothing to do with Iraq. Even
>> your own administration initially went for Afghanistan, not Iraq.
>> As for declaring war, it is GW who is making all the noises.
>
>He has.  He did so 10 years ago and repeats the declaration whenever he
>speaks to "the people"  

I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better.

http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm
http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm
http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm

>
>> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. 
>> 
>> Why should he not be accorded the same presumption you demand for
>> yourself?
>
>The following statement applies to this...
>
>> >Also...  Every other country in the world is transparent about there
>> >weapons destructave capabilities.  

Sorry, but I don't believe this.

>
>
>> If Iraq has such weapons, what makes you think they are not also
>> intended as a deterrent? (He had them in '91, and didn't use them,
>> despite being at war with UN forces led by the US).
>
>History.  He has used chemical weapons on his own people. 

So we have been told. (again and again and again).
(It may be true, but given the source, I'm beginning to wonder).

> The best
>predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

But do you really know what past behaviour is?

>
>> >What is Saddams problem?   HE - is bent on killing Americans. 
>> 
>> Find even a single statement made by him to that effect.
> 
>Watch the tapes of his public speaches.

See above.
 
> 
>> Once again that was not Iraq's doing, and it has taken over a year for
>> your own administration to slowly but surely generate the association
>> in the minds of the US public that Iraq is linked to 911.
>
>Oh contrare.  Most of us suspected it that same september day.  Because
>Saddam had and has continued to evade and deceive and spit words of war
>in our direction.  In fact it took Bin ladins trading movements in the
>market to link him to the attack.

>From memory physical evidence was more prominent, and the trading link was never clearly established.
  
>
>> 
>> Based on your own statement here, I appears they are succeeding.
>> 
>
>Watch ou also for the media.  Which is always against whatever it is the
>us.gov is doing. 

On the contrary, it is the media who faithfully (and frequently) report the government line. See http://www.medialens.org/

> They will use the common falicies you just have to
>notice them. 

?

>
>There is more then one con going on here.

I'm sure there are.

>
>Finally there is the reasons I opose action.  Those reasons that I did
>not discuss in the previous message.  
>
>There is not enough proof.  Before you go to war your "just cause" must
>be overwhelming.  In the US we convict a murderer if the evidance is
>"beyond all reasonable doubt"  but Buch continues to press for war based
>on evidance that is so soft you couldn't even make an arrest. 

At least on this we agree. :)
 
>
>Why?   You will find it is not about oil. 

Would you care to elaborate?

(Not about who gets to buy the oil, but about who gets to sell the oil).


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 00:37:35 2003
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>               Water heater elememts  will burn up if you send 3 phase power
>to them.  But a stove has a far higher heat range and will not.     We can
>run 3 phase EQ with only a fraction of what is normally required witch is
>what phase conversion is for.

What kind of a load of crap it this? There are two connection points 
of a water heater element, ditto with a single phase stove. A single 
phase stove will work perfectly well on two legs of three phase 
electricity, but there is no free lunch.  When you talk about phase 
conversion I assume that you are talking about three phase to single 
phase?

In your previous post to Gene Mallove, you mentioned a machine which 
putouts 1 watt for each watt input, That would be interesting, 
because any conversion system that I've come across looses energy in 
the process. When I say interesting, I mean that it would make an 
interesting physics experiment, not that it has any business 
potential. If you are planning on making any money you need to get 
significantly more power out than you are putting in. How much of an 
increase is significant, depends on the complexity of the machine, 
and whether or not it involves rotating components.

  I assume that when you use the abbreviation buss you are referring 
to business? BTW, witch refers to someone who practices the religion 
of Wicca, the proper word is which.

You mentioned a Russian science publication, which I assume is 
faraday.ru . This is the magazine which published an article by a 
group which claimed to have reproduced the Searle machine. When I 
asked Alexander if he had seen this marvelous machine, he failed to 
reply. So much for his creditability, IMHO.

You also mention Steven Greer, the man who is offering a $1,000,000 
prize, which really isn't $1,000,000 prize after all, for a working 
FE machine.

>
>OR connect it to a gen. that will convert it into single phase.  But there is
>not excess power now the unit of electricity is being burned at 99% level as
>a gas fire place you buy at say Lowes burns 99% of the cube of gas

What are you talking about? an electric motor turning a generator? 
The very best electric motors have efficiencies in the 95% range, as 
do the generators. The combined efficiency of such a unit would be in 
the low 90% range. I've seen machines such as this used to eliminate 
surges and sags in the input power with the output used to power a 
computer, but what is the point of doing this in your application? As 
for the gas fire place, what has that got to do with anything? What 
is a cube of gas?


>  It is the
>same theory   Where as now a great deal of the unit of electricity is being
>wasted now it is not. It is called high EFF. not OU witch is a giant misnomer
>and totally needs to be discarded as a form of thinking.

Hum, wasted electricity, I saw a company that was selling what they 
called the green plug, It chops off the top of the sine wave to 
optimize electric motor performance. It was developed by NASA. Dennis 
Lee was marketing them. I found your mention of him very interesting. 
The last I heard, Dennis was facing criminal charges in, as I recall, 
Washington state, defrauding investors, again.

Well, at least you admit that your device is not over unity, that 
clears that up.

Given your stupid remarks, and your failure to use proper English, I 
wouldn't have given your posts the time required to reply, had you 
not dropped the name of what I assume is the IBM spinnoff Delphi, and 
General Motors. I noted with interest the phone numbers, which I will 
try Monday morning.

Jack, it is just bad form to come on this forum and start telling us, 
how we don't know anything. If you have some sage observations, about 
how to accomplish the things that we are interested in; gravity 
control, energy production, vortex engineering, low energy nuclear 
reactions, ect.,  then share them with us! But you don't do that, you 
came on here with the same old BS; how you have some brilliant 
insights which will advance science 300 years, some great insights 
into hyperdimensionality, and how you are going to be a big success 
in business, and AFAIK, all it is, is talk, which is cheap!

AFAIK, the science of power engineering is well understood. The 
reason that more people aren't using Green Plugs is because of the 
investment verses the return.

Looking forward to my conversation with Dave Doherty, and Tom, whom 
ever he may be, I am

Sincerely Yours


-- 
Thomas Malloy
Associate Broker at CroixStar Properties
2920 Talmage Ave. S.E.
Minneapolis, MN 55414
612 331 5207 Ext. 257
413 647 9599 fax
http://www.artresearch.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 01:08:51 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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Robbin van Spaarondonk replied;

>  >Saddam's goal is to be the next Nebucanezar. He would like to unify
>>the Arabs and smash Israel.
>
>Fat chance of either. In fact if anyone succeeds in unifying the Arabs,
>it will George W.

The Wahabbi's (fundamentaist Islamists) are already united. They hate 
us, and that includes you. Their agenda is to conquer the world for 
Islam. They will offer you the choice of convert or die; there is a 
third option however, we are going to incinerate them.

>
>>If that involves helping El Queda, then
>>so be it. We aren't making war against the Iraqis we are liberating
>>them from a tyrant.
>
>Administration line again, and also the same line used by nearly 
>every invading force throughout history. It's also pure BS. You 
>don't need a hundred thousand men to remove a tyrant, a small 
>remotely controlled model plane with an explosive and a TV camera 
>will do the job, at a cost of a few thousand bucks, and the 
>administration knows this. However you do need an army to "liberate" 
>a country's resources.

I'm sure that the coalition forces will do the job as expeditiously 
as possible.  Your line about the resources is pure left wing BS, 
those resources are for sale now, and they will be for sale in the 
future. The difference is that the liberated Iraq will spend the 
money on it's people not guilded palaces and weapons that they don't 
need.

>
>>What part of the evidence presented by Secretary
>>Powell don't you understand? A Modified is a motorhome fitted out to
>>be a biological laboratory. El Queda operatives are living in Iraq.
>
>And also in the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Germany, Britain, Italy,
>several African countries, and the US, does that mean you are going 
>to go to war with yourself as well?

They will all have to be eliminated.

>And as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the US 
>couldn't be more hypocritical. It holds the largest stores of such 
>weapons of any nation on Earth.
>Face it, this war has nothing to do with weapons of mass 
>destruction. That's just the excuse. A red herring designed for 
>local public consumption in the US designed to play upon your fears 
>after 911.

We, Joseph (America, and the British Commonwealth nations) have a 
divine right to have them. While we are not perfect, we have an 
internal group of illuminated ones, one example of which is Skull and 
Bones, see www.secretsofthetemple.com . They control the CIA and 
other government agencies. They have done all kinds of bad things in 
our name. However, our actions have been, by in large positive. We 
have fostered democracy, fed hungry people, and shared the good news 
of salvation.

>[snip]
>>The corporations just produce the products that we need. I realize
>>that the oligarchy that controls the corporations will take over the
>>world, but that won't happen until the fulness of time.
>
>...and over my dead body.
>[snip]

If you don't develop a relationship with Jesus, and you are presented 
with the option of bow down to their god, and take the Mark, which 
will involve the number 666. or death, you will be better off taking 
the latter option.

>  >I won't argue that, however what part of a war to the death between
>>the children of Israel (western civilization) and the children of
>>Esau (Islam), don't you understand?
>
>What part don't you understand of the fact that throughout history 
>religion has been used as an excuse for wars that were really all 
>about acquisition of resources?

The history of the past 4000 years has plenty of blame to go around. 
However, this war is not about resources. Nor will the 5766 war, 
which will be the beginning of the war of the end times.

>That's because if you tell the average man on the street that you 
>want him to lay down his life so that you can get richer, he will 
>laugh in your face, but if you tell him that his immortal soul is in 
>danger from the
>"heathen enemy", he will lay down his life willingly.
>People have been played for fools for thousands of years. It appears 
>you are no exception.

That depends on whether or not the Bible is what it says it is. Given 
that about 80% of the prophecies in the plain text have proven to be 
correct. Some people still don't accept it. There are some people 
think that just because Bible Code exists, and the rest of the events 
prophecized have come to pass, that is just an interesting freak of 
nature, and not proof that a super human being who exists out side of 
time wrote it. We shall see.

My friend Phil, who is circulating a petition for W's recall 
forwarded this to me. I fail to see how a man with an advanced degree 
from Harvard can be considered stupid.

NEWS FLASH: 
Early this morning a devastating fire burned down the personal library
of President George W. Bush. Tragically, both books were lost in the
conflagration. More poignantly, the President, due to his hectic
schedule, had not found time to colour in the second one.
- - - - -

Phil is planning on building a underground bunker to store his 
survival supplies. I told him that would save us the trouble of 
burying him.

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In a message dated 2/10/03 3:37:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> In your previous post to Gene Mallove, you mentioned a machine which 
> putouts 1 watt for each watt input, That would be interesting, 
> because any conversion system that I've come across looses energy in 
> the process. When I say interesting, I mean that it would make an 
> interesting physics experiment, not that it has any business 
> potential. If you are planning on making any money you need to get 
> significantly more power out than you are putting in. How much of an 
> increase is significant, depends on the complexity of the machine, 
> and whether or not it involves rotating components.
> 
>         REPLY  A device that causes a one out for one in situation  
> translates to at least a 75% reduction in electrical cost if hooked to your 
> imput and driving a generator that in turn operates you house. I would say 
> that is a major world wide in scope.world changing situation.  

   That is totally new physics but in your totally backward OU thinking that 
is about 950% EFF.  WE call it 99% which it 
> is  actually. I think your going to need to enroll in our new school. So 
> this time you can learn correctly. How electricity functions.. Because you 
> are apparently clueless.

  Because using current at a 99% level cannot even be imagined by the Sci. 
Comm. AS far as you saying You know of 
> situations that operate in the 90 +% range You better test them because the 
> best 3 phase motor there is. Is about 60% EFF and the best single phase is 
> about 20% EFF> Our Tech's can provide the correct instructions to do so if 
> necessary. You may know current physics but you appearently have no 
> understanding of new physics. FYI The new  equation Is to explain one for 
> one is ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF""     


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/10/0=
3 3:37:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In your previous post to Gene M=
allove, you mentioned a machine which <BR>
putouts 1 watt for each watt input, That would be interesting, <BR>
because any conversion system that I've come across looses energy in <BR>
the process. When I say interesting, I mean that it would make an <BR>
interesting physics experiment, not that it has any business <BR>
potential. If you are planning on making any money you need to get <BR>
significantly more power out than you are putting in. How much of an <BR>
increase is significant, depends on the complexity of the machine, <BR>
and whether or not it involves rotating components.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; A device that causes=20=
a one out for one in situation&nbsp; translates to at least a 75% reduction=20=
in electrical cost if hooked to your imput and driving a generator that in t=
urn operates you house. I would say that is a major world wide in scope.worl=
d changing situation.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; That is totally=
 new physics but in your totally backward OU thinking that is about 950% EFF=
.&nbsp; WE call it 99% which it </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">is&nbsp; actually. I think your going to need to enroll in=20=
our new school. So this time you can learn correctly. How electricity functi=
ons.. Because you are apparently clueless.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; Because using current=
 at a 99% level cannot even be imagined by the Sci. Comm. AS far as you sayi=
ng You know of </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">situations that operate in the 90 +% range You better test=20=
them because the best 3 phase motor there is. Is about 60% EFF and the best=20=
single phase is about 20% EFF&gt; Our Tech's can provide the correct instruc=
tions to do so if necessary. You may know current physics but you appearentl=
y have no understanding of new physics. FYI The new&nbsp; equation Is to exp=
lain one for one is ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF""&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 06:35:23 2003
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Subject: Re: The latest edition of What's New
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Was Parksie attacking the space program, did I understand him to say that 
>nothing useful has come out of the micro gravity research conducted on the 
>shuttle? I have come to the same conclusion. This is a first, we don't 
>usually agree on anything.

Even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day.

Park has been saying that for a long time. He is not alone -- he never is. 
He only takes outspoken, controversial positions when he knows that many 
powerful people in the establishment agree with him. I read several 
editorials in newspapers and technical journals about the shuttle. A 
surprising number of people across the spectrum oppose it. People who see 
no point in space exploration oppose it because it is too expensive and 
risky. People who advocate manned exploration agree it is too expensive, 
and they say the shuttle is obsolete and money should have been spent on 
radical new spacecraft. Some reports say the contractors who earn $500 
million per Shuttle flight are working to prevent research in cheaper rockets.

The cost is incredible. I read that the water alone costs $500,000 per day.

The best proposal I have seen is to build large, automatic, throwaway 
rockets for bulk cargo, and a small "space plane" with room for 5 
passengers only, no cargo.

Many people on both sides say the microgravity research has been a waste of 
time and money. I agree, but I am wary of saying it should be terminated 
completely, or predicting nothing will ever come of it. We don't know that 
yet. One editorial ridiculed the "flame puff" research in recent flights, 
saying it generates "the weakest flames ever seen." If that is true, it 
strikes me as an important finding. People do not understand that a 
negative extreme can reveal as much as a positive extreme.

- Jed


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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:39:29 -0800
From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
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I found the following analysis insightful:

http://www.counterpunch.org/

The US Gameplan for Iraq
by BILL CHRISTISON
(former CIA political analyst)

Ron W.

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<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><flushleft>I found the following analysis =
insightful:


http://www.counterpunch.org/


The US Gameplan for Iraq

by BILL CHRISTISON

(former CIA political analyst)


Ron W.


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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:39:28 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: response to Jack Carey
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Jack Carey repied;

>>
>>         REPLY  A device that causes a one out for one in situation 
>>translates to at least a 75% reduction in electrical cost if hooked 
>>to your imput and driving a generator that in turn operates you 
>>house. I would say that is a major world wide in scope.world 
>>changing situation. 
>>

I agree, but who provides the 75% of the energy.

>
>    That is totally new physics but in your totally backward OU 
>thinking that is about 950% EFF.  WE call it 99% which it
>
>>is  actually. I think your going to need to enroll in our new 
>>school. So this time you can learn correctly. How electricity 
>>functions.. Because you are apparently clueless.

Were do I sign up?

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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: response to Jack Carey</title></head><body>
<div>Jack Carey repied;</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; A device that
causes a one out for one in situation&nbsp; translates to at least a
75% reduction in electrical cost if hooked to your imput and driving a
generator that in turn operates you house. I would say that is a major
world wide in scope.world changing situation.&nbsp;</font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I agree, but who provides the 75% of the energy.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br>
<font color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; That is totally new physics but in
your totally backward OU thinking that is about 950% EFF.&nbsp; WE
call it 99% which it</font></font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">is&nbsp; actually. I think your going to need to
enroll in our new school. So this time you can learn correctly. How
electricity functions.. Because you are apparently
clueless.</font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Were do I sign up?<br>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 11:25:47 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:20:14 +1300
From: RBR <RBR clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
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hi all ...
              Would it be possible to keep the postings focused on the
content of the group....I don't question the knowledge on the subject matter
namely the war,that with sadness will come . But would like to think of the
group as a place to retreat from the madness of the pending war and to stay
focused on the groups content .
                                     with kindest regards ......Bruce




iginal Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam


> In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:55:18 -0800:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >> To the best of my knowledge Iraq has not declared war on the US (or
> >> anyone else for that matter). 911 had nothing to do with Iraq. Even
> >> your own administration initially went for Afghanistan, not Iraq.
> >> As for declaring war, it is GW who is making all the noises.
> >
> >He has.  He did so 10 years ago and repeats the declaration whenever he
> >speaks to "the people"
>
> I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no
declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better.
>
> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm
> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm
> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm
>
> >
> >> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here.
> >>
> >> Why should he not be accorded the same presumption you demand for
> >> yourself?
> >
> >The following statement applies to this...
> >
> >> >Also...  Every other country in the world is transparent about there
> >> >weapons destructave capabilities.
>
> Sorry, but I don't believe this.
>
> >
> >
> >> If Iraq has such weapons, what makes you think they are not also
> >> intended as a deterrent? (He had them in '91, and didn't use them,
> >> despite being at war with UN forces led by the US).
> >
> >History.  He has used chemical weapons on his own people.
>
> So we have been told. (again and again and again).
> (It may be true, but given the source, I'm beginning to wonder).
>
> > The best
> >predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.
>
> But do you really know what past behaviour is?
>
> >
> >> >What is Saddams problem?   HE - is bent on killing Americans.
> >>
> >> Find even a single statement made by him to that effect.
> >
> >Watch the tapes of his public speaches.
>
> See above.
>
> >
> >> Once again that was not Iraq's doing, and it has taken over a year for
> >> your own administration to slowly but surely generate the association
> >> in the minds of the US public that Iraq is linked to 911.
> >
> >Oh contrare.  Most of us suspected it that same september day.  Because
> >Saddam had and has continued to evade and deceive and spit words of war
> >in our direction.  In fact it took Bin ladins trading movements in the
> >market to link him to the attack.
>
> From memory physical evidence was more prominent, and the trading link was
never clearly established.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Based on your own statement here, I appears they are succeeding.
> >>
> >
> >Watch ou also for the media.  Which is always against whatever it is the
> >us.gov is doing.
>
> On the contrary, it is the media who faithfully (and frequently) report
the government line. See http://www.medialens.org/
>
> > They will use the common falicies you just have to
> >notice them.
>
> ?
>
> >
> >There is more then one con going on here.
>
> I'm sure there are.
>
> >
> >Finally there is the reasons I opose action.  Those reasons that I did
> >not discuss in the previous message.
> >
> >There is not enough proof.  Before you go to war your "just cause" must
> >be overwhelming.  In the US we convict a murderer if the evidance is
> >"beyond all reasonable doubt"  but Buch continues to press for war based
> >on evidance that is so soft you couldn't even make an arrest.
>
> At least on this we agree. :)
>
> >
> >Why?   You will find it is not about oil.
>
> Would you care to elaborate?
>
> (Not about who gets to buy the oil, but about who gets to sell the oil).
>
>
> Regards,
>
> R. van Spaandonk
>
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
>

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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:21:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no
> declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better.
> 
> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm
> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm
> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm
> 
> >
> >> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. 
> >> 

Go to any search engine and type in the following 

"Saddam Declares War"

Don't lock yourself into one news source and NEVER stake your integrity
on the word of a reporter.


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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Subject: A possible explaination of an evolutionary new electrical concept? 
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In a message dated 2/10/03 12:42:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> I agree, but who provides the 75% of the energy.
> 
>              REPLY   Now  with a new phase conversion process. The 
> currently not used wasted  kinetic energy (frequency's)  that are all ready 
> contained in the delivery process from the grid,  conducts the vast 
> majority of work performed. Whereas in your world Amps are the prime power 
> providers. 

  As far as I know  This is totally opposite of what you know.  So now you 
use 75% less of the flow than you would normally require for any given > 
> situation. Considering A/C current is the absolute dominate power providing 
> situation on the planet. It would basically boggle the mind to even start 
> to grasp the world changing effects this new situation could create. The 
> business opportunity this presents can barley be imagined unless your a 
> stone cold futuristic thinking visionary.    

 SIMPLE   Your charged for flow now the flow is fully utilized. So now you 
use far less flow. It is called high EFF>  Please forget Over Unity  > 
> thinking PERIOD >>   Because that thinking creates a giant counter 
>> productive theory based roadblock. You cannot evolve unless you do.   If 
>> so basically all of current electrical thinking is totally obsolete. Plus 
>> the earth which is the biggest battery there is provides free electrons. 
>> Because it is bombarded with Neutrinos that are emitted by stars. Which 
>> lets say mix in with the magnetic flux and plasma fields that are being 
>> created during the conversion process. 

    The new equation the first new in a century ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT 
CREATING AN EMF"" Explains why 
> >> operational motors never reached a Temp. that is 10 Deg. above room Temp. 
>> Because the current power loss factor is being eliminated.    3 phase 
>> motors like cold surrounding Temp.

     This new process creates a situation where they do not. Again that is 
totally opposite of current knowledge of the 
> >> operational aspects of electricity. Now you know why main stream in the 
>> box thinking science is totally clueless? Because they have no math to 
>> explain this new process. Without that they are totally lost. Because math 
>> is all they have to explain electricity.  

        Now possibly you have a complete new evolutionary futuristic concept 
understanding of electricity.  But I'm not holding my breath that you do. The 
> >> greasiest of them all Nicola Tesla said if we ever fully understand 
>> electricity , then and only then will we know something. He was correct as 
>> he was also correct when he said. It is far easier to use an atom than 
>> what Einstein said,  which was incorrect when he promoted splitting them. 

     All explained here  is  an obsolete  tinker toy technology compared to 
the next step.        Welcome to the 23 RD century  > >> When those who will 
>> follow you, will possibly thank you for not destroying. The once majestic 
>> pristine beautiful planet as will happen now if we continue on our present 
>> coarse.  If science expects to attempt to understand concepts on this 
>> basically science fiction level.  They will have to first totally reverse 
>> their current thoery first thinking processes. FAT chance that will ever 
>> happen. Please excuse the poor grammar and sentence structure no one is 
>> perfect. 
>>    
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/10/0=
3 12:42:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I agree, but who provides the 7=
5% of the energy.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REP=
LY&nbsp;&nbsp; Now&nbsp; with a new phase conversion process. The currently=20=
not used wasted&nbsp; kinetic energy (frequency's)&nbsp; that are all ready=20=
contained in the delivery process from the grid,&nbsp; conducts the vast maj=
ority of work performed. Whereas in your world Amps are the prime power prov=
iders. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; As far as I know&nbsp=
; This is totally opposite of what you know.&nbsp; So now you use 75% less o=
f the flow than you would normally require for any given <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=
=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RI=
GHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">situation. Considering A/C current is the absol=
ute dominate power providing situation on the planet. It would basically bog=
gle the mind to even start to grasp the world changing effects this new situ=
ation could create. The business opportunity this presents can barley be ima=
gined unless your a stone cold futuristic thinking visionary.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <B>SIMPLE&nbsp;</B>&nbsp; Your charged for flow now the flow is fully utili=
zed. So now you use far less flow. It is called high EFF&gt;&nbsp; Please fo=
rget Over Unity&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff=20=
2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">thinking=20=
<B>PERIOD&nbsp;<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px sol=
id; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></B>&nbsp; Becau=
se that thinking creates a giant counter productive theory based roadblock.=20=
You cannot evolve unless you do.&nbsp;&nbsp; If so basically all of current=20=
electrical thinking is totally obsolete. Plus the earth which is the biggest=
 battery there is provides free electrons. Because it is bombarded with Neut=
rinos that are emitted by stars. Which lets say mix in with the magnetic flu=
x and plasma fields that are being created during the conversion process. </=
FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 F=
AMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The new e=
quation the first new in a century ""<B>ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EM=
F</B>"" Explains why </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px s=
olid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">operational mo=
tors never reached a Temp. that is 10 Deg. above room Temp. Because the curr=
ent power loss factor is being eliminated.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 phase motors=20=
like cold surrounding Temp.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thi=
s new process creates a situation where they do not. Again that is totally o=
pposite of current knowledge of the </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px s=
olid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">operational as=
pects of electricity. Now you know why main stream in the box thinking scien=
ce is totally clueless? Because they have no math to explain this new proces=
s. Without that they are totally lost. Because math is all they have to expl=
ain electricity.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLO=
CKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now possibly you have a complete new evolutionary futuristic=20=
concept understanding of electricity.&nbsp; But I'm not holding my breath th=
at you do. The <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px sol=
id; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=
=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RI=
GHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">greasiest of them all Nicola Tesla said if we e=
ver fully understand electricity , then and only then will we know something=
. He was correct as he was also correct when he said. It is far easier to us=
e an atom than what Einstein said,&nbsp; which was incorrect when he promote=
d splitting them. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUO=
TE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; All=
 explained here&nbsp; is&nbsp; an obsolete&nbsp; tinker toy technology compa=
red to the next step.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Welcome to t=
he 23 RD century&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff=
 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQU=
OTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; M=
ARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">When those who will follow you, will po=
ssibly thank you for not destroying. The once majestic pristine beautiful pl=
anet as will happen now if we continue on our present coarse.&nbsp; If scien=
ce expects to attempt to understand concepts on this basically science ficti=
on level.&nbsp; They will have to first totally reverse their current thoery=
 first thinking processes. FAT chance that will ever happen. Please excuse t=
he poor grammar and sentence structure no one is perfect. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_145.a2cfed5.2b795dfa_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 13:28:00 2003
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From: Yakov Smirnoff <rockcast net-link.net>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the war against Saddam
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:26:49 -0500
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On Sunday 09 February 2003 23:55, Charles Ford wrote:
> --- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >> >     Before you flame me understand that I am against action in Iraq
> > >(currently) but largely for reasons other then you have been
> > descussing.
> > 
> > I'm not flaming anyone. Just saying it as I see it.
> 
> Robin:  This statement was not meant for you.  It was only to avoid the
> 30 or so direct flames you get when you speak against the flow.
> 
> > >It is not the weapons we are woried about but simply the fact that
> > they
> > >are in the hands of a loonitic and all are intended to kill mass
> > numbers
> > >of americans. Remember just who declared war on whom.
> > 
> > To the best of my knowledge Iraq has not declared war on the US (or
> > anyone else for that matter). 911 had nothing to do with Iraq. Even
> > your own administration initially went for Afghanistan, not Iraq.
> > As for declaring war, it is GW who is making all the noises.
> 
> He has.  He did so 10 years ago and repeats the declaration whenever he
> speaks to "the people"  
> 
> > >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. 
> > 
> > Why should he not be accorded the same presumption you demand for
> > yourself?
> 
> The following statement applies to this...
> 
> > >Also...  Every other country in the world is transparent about there
> > >weapons destructave capabilities.  
> 
> 
> > If Iraq has such weapons, what makes you think they are not also
> > intended as a deterrent? (He had them in '91, and didn't use them,
> > despite being at war with UN forces led by the US).
> 
> History.  He has used chemical weapons on his own people.  The best
> predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.
> 
> > >What is Saddams problem?   HE - is bent on killing Americans. 
> > 
> > Find even a single statement made by him to that effect.
>  
> Watch the tapes of his public speaches. 
>  
> > Once again that was not Iraq's doing, and it has taken over a year for
> > your own administration to slowly but surely generate the association
> > in the minds of the US public that Iraq is linked to 911.
> 
> Oh contrare.  Most of us suspected it that same september day.  Because
> Saddam had and has continued to evade and deceive and spit words of war
> in our direction.  In fact it took Bin ladins trading movements in the
> market to link him to the attack.  
> 
> > 
> > Based on your own statement here, I appears they are succeeding.
> > 
> 
> Watch ou also for the media.  Which is always against whatever it is the
> us.gov is doing.  They will use the common falicies you just have to
> notice them. 
> 
> There is more then one con going on here.
> 
> Finally there is the reasons I opose action.  Those reasons that I did
> not discuss in the previous message.  
> 
> There is not enough proof.  Before you go to war your "just cause" must
> be overwhelming.  In the US we convict a murderer if the evidance is
> "beyond all reasonable doubt"  but Buch continues to press for war based
> on evidance that is so soft you couldn't even make an arrest.  
> 
> Why?   You will find it is not about oil. 
> 

'loonitic is spelled  'lunatic'.........alternatively     
'sad.......dam....insane'

yakov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 13:45:18 2003
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On Tuesday 04 February 2003 07:03, thomas malloy wrote:
> >--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
> 
> And Charles Ford responded
> 
> >  >
> >  > Help me out here guys, say it ain't so!
> >
> >Ok  Hoagland is a bit of a crackpot and has some bitterness about NASA  I
> >would call him a hostile witness. However  The doorknob simily is
> >probably more accurate then you want to believe. 
> >
> >Think about this...  In the sixties they put men on The Moon, a lander on
> >Mars and started the voiager project.  There where problems with opollo
> >13 but fatal only to the mission (not the crew).  Since then there has
> >been quite a staff turnover.  Then challenger...  The busted hubble. (and
> >the thumb print on the reflector) and a mars lander that had a little
> >planet strike (software bug), the shuttles "replacement" that won't
> >fly... and... and... and...
> 
> It was going to be a cheap method of putting things in orbit.
> 
> I'm sending this out to the Communicators on talk radio.
> 
> First of all the bird should have been fabricated out of titanium. 
> Lockheed had a facility capable of fabricating such a vehicle, but it 
> was destroyed on the orders of  Robert McNamara.
> 
> Then there is the matter of the ice block that caused the damage. It 
> was a January launch. Apparently those door knobs didn't learn 
> anything from the Challenger disaster.
> 
> What really burns me is their failure to provide a tile repair kit 
> and provisions for an EVA. It would seem to me, that if you have a 
> space suit, and they did and an airlock, and the shuttle has one, 
> then you have most of what is required for an EVA.
> 
> The designers of the shuttle threw away one half of the vehicle's 
> cargo carrying capacity in order to make it land like an airplane.
> 
> Now for the matter of cost, if you have two trucking companies; one 
> called NASA, and the other called the Russians, who are ready willing 
> and able to deliver goods into stable earth orbit. NASA is charging 
> $10,000 per pound to do it, and the Russians are charging $150 per 
> pound, does it take a degree in business administration to determine 
> which company you are going to select in order to do the job?
> 
> Getting back to the matter of Criminal Negligence, which as you know, 
> is a serious charge. If I were to do some wiring in your house, and 
> it subsequently set the house on fire, and one of your family members 
> died, then I would be guilty of that charge, because I am a licensed 
> electrical professional, and I knew, or should have known, that the 
> wiring was not done according to the Electrical Code. I must point 
> out that wiring done according to the Code is inherently safe.
> 
> I've spent several hours listening to Richard Hoagland of 
> www.enterprisemission.com , being interviewed on the subject. I won't 
> say this on the air, of course, but he has correlated the actions of 
> NASA; meaning dates, places landed, with the Egyptian Mystery 
> Religion. Jack Parsons, the former director of JPL, was a student of 
> Allester Crowley, the infamous satanist. Two of his associates were 
> the science fiction writers, L Ron Hubbard, and Robert Heinlein. 
> Heinlein was the author of many novels which glorified anarchy and 
> sexual immorality, and L Ron Hubbard is best know as the founder of 
> the Scientology cult. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Hoagland was going on about how NASA is under funded. OTOH, the 
> external fuel tanks could have been fitted with a rocket pack which 
> would place them in stable orbit. Then collars could have been built 
> which would have allowed a group of tanks to be configured into a 
> circle. They would have had as much space as several 747's in which 
> to build a space station. Instead, the NASA management chose to build 
> the space station from scratch, hence the price tag. IMHO, those door 
> knobs will spend any given amount of money, just like any other group 
> of bureaucrats.
> 
> In my humble opinion, the actions of the NASA management rises to that 
level.
> 
>
     As long as the Chinese want to dominate space, we have no choice. 
Rest assured that we will build another shuttle type to replace the current
ones.  Maybe this one will replace the Intel 80286 computers and the Apple
][ 's with at least Athlon or Pentium types.  To be fair, I heard that they 
were using '386s, but that is kinda 'old' to be used in such a machine.  On
the other hand, sending our boys to an outdoor bar-b-que riding  on a
the present shuttles made of magnesium foil solder pretected by styrofoam
water cooler lids glued on with Elmer's Glue-All is just plain foolish and
was always so.  Landing is uncontrolled, because we did not want to
spend money on low tech or risk exposing the knowledge of our high 
tech in order to bring folks back reliably and safely through the gravity 
well.  Why not use ole Randall Mill's and Dr Marchese's black light
rocket in a strong titanium/vanadium hulled single stage to orbit shuttle?

yours in maybe jest......
        Yakov
                    .....and then again maybe not.  Maybe even Dr Ning Li can
help here! 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 13:51:29 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:43:35 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
  LENR-CANR.org?
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I updated the traffic graph. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#Visitors

The graph shows an interesting pattern. Bursts of downloads are followed by 
quiescent periods. Sometimes the causes are clear. As I explained in the 
text below the graph:

"The decline during the week of November 30 was caused by the U.S. 
Thanksgiving holiday. The decline in late December was caused by Christmas 
and New Year holidays. . . ."

There is no doubt the shuttle disaster reduced readership for a few days. 
It was down by a factor of ten on Sunday. That cannot be a 
coincidence.  This is to be expected; the people who read about CF are 
technically knowledgeable and likely to read about shuttle instead.

Here is a question for Vortex readers here:


Does anyone know of a discussion group, other than Vortex, in which 
LENR-CANR comes up on a regular basis?  If so, please have the group get in 
touch with me.


Let me explain. I can tell when the readers there download a paper when I 
announce something new. The pattern is pretty clear. However, sometimes for 
no apparent reason when I have not said anything lately on Vortex, there 
will be a flurry of activity. In a single day 1000 or more papers will be 
downloaded.

If members of some other discussion group periodically download papers, I 
would like the participants to contact me and tell me what other papers and 
other material they want to see.

Naturally, I welcome suggestions here, too.


There has been a good response to the "Student's Guide." 273 copies in HTML 
format have been downloaded, and 243 copies in Acrobat format, 516 total.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 14:25:49 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in LENR-CANR.org?
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:40:07 -0500
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Hello Jed.

Yes, the Internet is a strange animal. People are talking
about your site, and as a result you will see bursts of
activity as "word spreads". It can be VERY useful to
download the raw logs from your web server, they often
contain clues as to where the traffic is coming from.
Look at the referrer field in particular. I have found that
most web servers which process the log for you to
generate statistics can be misleading, and often miss
important clues. Get the raw logs, and learn....

Another tip is to provide google with the following
search term.

"link:www.LENR-CANR.org"

this will show other sites that link to you. For example,

http://hometown.aol.com/cffuture2

links to you. I have found this to be less than comprehensive,
however (smile).

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:44 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
LENR-CANR.org?


I updated the traffic graph. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#Visitors

The graph shows an interesting pattern. Bursts of downloads are followed by
quiescent periods. Sometimes the causes are clear. As I explained in the
text below the graph:

"The decline during the week of November 30 was caused by the U.S.
Thanksgiving holiday. The decline in late December was caused by Christmas
and New Year holidays. . . ."

There is no doubt the shuttle disaster reduced readership for a few days.
It was down by a factor of ten on Sunday. That cannot be a
coincidence.  This is to be expected; the people who read about CF are
technically knowledgeable and likely to read about shuttle instead.

Here is a question for Vortex readers here:


Does anyone know of a discussion group, other than Vortex, in which
LENR-CANR comes up on a regular basis?  If so, please have the group get in
touch with me.


Let me explain. I can tell when the readers there download a paper when I
announce something new. The pattern is pretty clear. However, sometimes for
no apparent reason when I have not said anything lately on Vortex, there
will be a flurry of activity. In a single day 1000 or more papers will be
downloaded.

If members of some other discussion group periodically download papers, I
would like the participants to contact me and tell me what other papers and
other material they want to see.

Naturally, I welcome suggestions here, too.


There has been a good response to the "Student's Guide." 273 copies in HTML
format have been downloaded, and 243 copies in Acrobat format, 516 total.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 14:32:21 2003
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Subject: Re: Building The Great Pyramids Using Electrostatics?
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Fred, I take it all back, including the smart-ass comment about "ground."   It's amazing how far wrong you can be when you just believe what you've read vs an actual experiment .

The reason I thought limestone and other calcium carbonate rocks are conductive at high voltages is because I had read a number of old papers explaining that the the bases and other supports as components of electrostatic machines were not limestone or marble because these were thought to be too conductive for the purpose.

It so happens that I have a marble tile kicking around my lab, so just out of curiosity I tested its triboelectric chargeability and conductivity.  While this isn't actual limestone, it's basically the same stuff, calcium carbonate; although I'll get around to testing limestone later.

Here are some experiments others may wish to duplicate (not likely).  First, I tried rubbing the marble tile with a piece of chamois, since I didn't have any wool or silk handy.  This did indeed raise a positive charge on the marble, but not very strong.  Then, I tried rubbing it with a piece of tissue paper, the kind you get in your dry cleaning or the stuff they make those stupid toilet seat covers out of for public restroooms.  This worked much better, and both gave a positive charge, still not a great crackling high voltage charge.

Next, I tried rubbing the marble with a piece of polyester film, and the results were quite dramatic, an intense negative charge making audible discharge sparks to my fingers about 8cm long.  Now here's something I've discovered about charging things frictionally.  Once something has been charged highly at a given polarity, it's now much easier to charge it with the opposite polarity.  So I then rubbed the marble with the tissue paper again and was able to get a much stronger positive charge on the marble.  

Here is yet another useful technique if you want to create a really high voltage charge on a flat object, in this case the marble tile.  You just lay the flat piece on a flat conductive surface, metal, wood Formica, etc., and rub it with whatever you are testing.  There will seem to be no charge generated.  But when you lift the object from the conductive surface it will crackle and hiss nicely, indicating a high voltage charge.

The main thing here is that the marble is not only chargeable, its charge does not dissipate against a conductive surface, meaning that the marble, and also presumably limestone, is not only frictionally chargeable but a good enough insulator to prevent charge dissipation against a conductor.

Now I don't know if this lends very much credence to your idea of "Building the Great Pyramids Using Electrostatics", but what with the extreme low humidity in Egypt, who knows?

M. 



_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 14:40:49 2003
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Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
  LENR-CANR.org?
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I wrote:

>The graph shows an interesting pattern. Bursts of downloads are followed 
>by quiescent periods. . . .

I was just talking to Scott Chubb while looking at this graph, and it I 
suddenly realized what the pattern resembles. It looks like Fleischmann's 
calibration pulses. In relaxation the heat does not return to the baseline.

Perhaps these waves are caused by some sort of average mental incubation 
period. Person A reads a paper, mulls it over for some period of time X 
days, and then recommends to an average 1.4 other people that they read it. 
Somehow groups of readers synchronize the read+recommend cycle.

The same papers are being downloaded again and again, which I assume means 
these are new readers. The same people would not repeatedly download a 
paper. I presume most people would save a copy . . . unless they have a 
fast Internet connections and they grab a copy from the Internet whenever 
they want to check something in a paper, rather than saving a local copy.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 14:47:41 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:43:23 +1100
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A strange animal indeed! <grin>

Raw log files can provide a wealth of interesting data
plus, once you have downloaded them on your own machine,
there are a host of different analysis programs you can
run.

I'm quite partial to the service offered by
www.sitemeter.com actually. It provides a quite good
and easy to follow analysis of the traffic to a site
and will display up to 1 year history of unique
visitors and page view totals by month.

It will display non-personal information on the last
100 visitors (for the free service, more if you pay a
small amount) such as entry page, exit page, number
of pages viewed, time spent on site, actual search phrase
used if the visitor came from a search engine, etc.

You need to add the sitemeter code to ALL pages on
the site and, being externally hosted and relying on
javascript, the results are neither as comprehensive
nor accurate as the server logs, but they are much
easier to understand <grin>.

Keith Nagel wrote:
> Hello Jed.
> 
> Yes, the Internet is a strange animal. People are talking
> about your site, and as a result you will see bursts of
> activity as "word spreads". It can be VERY useful to
> download the raw logs from your web server, they often
> contain clues as to where the traffic is coming from.
> Look at the referrer field in particular. I have found that
> most web servers which process the log for you to
> generate statistics can be misleading, and often miss
> important clues. Get the raw logs, and learn....
> 
> Another tip is to provide google with the following
> search term.
> 
> "link:www.LENR-CANR.org"
> 
> this will show other sites that link to you. For example,
> 
> http://hometown.aol.com/cffuture2
> 
> links to you. I have found this to be less than comprehensive,
> however (smile).
> 
> K.
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 16:25:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <32.33cfcf2a.2b799c23 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:21:55 EST
Subject: GM saw the first step 20 years ago of new combustion Tech. that is for sale 
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            GM was shown a new concept and spent millions on it but could not 
perfect it. Because they did not want to pay the inventor for the next step 
info. But instead because of their not invented here syndrome backward 
thinking wasted a great deal of money attempting to Dev. the platform. What 
do you except from GM ?  I understand Toyota came the closest to perfecting 
the concept but did not. 

Back then you could have breathed the exhaust without harm to you. Because 
the fuel would have been  burned to a level that no converter would have been 
required. The platform a 2 cycle 4 cycle concept was a 6 CY.  that would have 
provided  8 CY. Power and would have had 4 CY. mileage. That concept now can 
be a closed loop system with no exhaust and the only residue would be clean 
carbon that your lawn would love.

  When we showed the Chief Scientist of the Delphi Corp. the diagram during 
an  advanced Tech. demonstration beyond anything they were knowledgeable 
about. He recognized it. A ranking City official at the time attended the 
meeting with us at their world HQ. Tech. center. That concept alone would 
solve our current requirements of needing foreign oil. THE concept is for 
sale. No prototype presently exists. Contact me if your interested at 810 618 
9234.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 16:49:43 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:44:42 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: A possible explaination of an evolutionary new electrical concept?
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Cross posting and use of cc's when posting to this list has been disallowed
by the list owner Bill Beaty (see rule #5.)  Any disrespectul tone of
writing is also prohibited (see rule #2).   Repeated efforts to justify or
sell one's invention or ideas to investors will likely upset the list
readers and then be determined to fall under rule #6 ... and the subject
matter will then be banished to another list.  This has happened in the
past.

While we are discusing rule violations, it should also be noted that a
number of calls to banish some off topic subject, like the pending IRAQ
war, can result in banishment of the topic to another list.  One such call
has already been made by RBR (Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:20:14 +1300.)

"The Vortex-L list was created for discussions of professional research
into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy
effects (ie: the inventions of Schaffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov
among others.)  Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any anomalous
physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free energy"
devices, gravity generation and detection, and all sorts of supposedly
crackpot claims.


Vortex-L Rules:

1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
   making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
   cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
   would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
   moderator, address above.

2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and
   namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden.  The tone
   should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
   Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having
   some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave
   in disgust.  But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy"
   claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on
   board!  (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of debunkery,
   see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin)

3. Small email files please.  The limit is set to 40K right now, those
   exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty.  If you wish to
   start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange
   initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL
   IMMEDIATELY.  Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for
   received email.  Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John
   Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing.

4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the
   ENTIRE message in your reply.  Always edit it a bit and dele te
   something.  The more you delete, the less traffic overload.  The entire
   message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a
   message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point
   reply to many parts of a message.  Many vortex users must pay by the
   kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant
   messages are irritating and expensive.  So, when including a quoted
   message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.

5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC
   line of your messages to vortex-L.  In the past this has caused
   thread leakage between lists and redundant messages as replies from
   subscribers go to both lists.  It's OK to manually forward mail from
   other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line has only
   vortex-L and no other list.

6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated.  While not illegal
   yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the
   Unwritten Rules of the Internet.  Anyone who spams vortex-L with junkmail
   will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team.  ;)
   Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is acceptable."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 17:09:38 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in LENR-CANR.org?
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:25:25 -0500
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Hi Alan.

My web server provides me with the raw logs, as well as some
common statistics programs for grinding them up. They
complement each other nicely, the stats tell you sort of
generally what's going on, and the log tells you WHY things
are happening. I'll provide an example from Jeds comments...

Jed Writes:
>There has been a good response to the "Student's Guide." 273 copies in HTML
>format have been downloaded, and 243 copies in Acrobat format, 516 total.

I'll bet if you looked at the logs, you'd see that in most of those
cases the users saw your first link on the page, titled "A Students
guide to cold fusion", and just clicked on it immediately. Then
after a few minutes, when they got tired of reading, they hit
the back button and downloaded the PDF file. You will see this
in the log clearly, as the file requests will come one after the
other and from the same IP address.

So really, you're talking about perhaps 300, rather than 500 unique
downloads of the content.

K.

PS: By the way Jed, the site is definitely looking better these
days. You should consider contacting Google for a bit of html
which will use their search engine to index your site. It'll help
generate traffic too, check it out. I'll bet you could do some
pretty slick datamining on that big set of papers with their
engine....


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Schneider [mailto:alansch zipworld.com.au]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 5:43 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
LENR-CANR.org?


A strange animal indeed! <grin>

Raw log files can provide a wealth of interesting data
plus, once you have downloaded them on your own machine,
there are a host of different analysis programs you can
run.

I'm quite partial to the service offered by
www.sitemeter.com actually. It provides a quite good
and easy to follow analysis of the traffic to a site
and will display up to 1 year history of unique
visitors and page view totals by month.

It will display non-personal information on the last
100 visitors (for the free service, more if you pay a
small amount) such as entry page, exit page, number
of pages viewed, time spent on site, actual search phrase
used if the visitor came from a search engine, etc.

You need to add the sitemeter code to ALL pages on
the site and, being externally hosted and relying on
javascript, the results are neither as comprehensive
nor accurate as the server logs, but they are much
easier to understand <grin>.

Keith Nagel wrote:
> Hello Jed.
>
> Yes, the Internet is a strange animal. People are talking
> about your site, and as a result you will see bursts of
> activity as "word spreads". It can be VERY useful to
> download the raw logs from your web server, they often
> contain clues as to where the traffic is coming from.
> Look at the referrer field in particular. I have found that
> most web servers which process the log for you to
> generate statistics can be misleading, and often miss
> important clues. Get the raw logs, and learn....
>
> Another tip is to provide google with the following
> search term.
>
> "link:www.LENR-CANR.org"
>
> this will show other sites that link to you. For example,
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/cffuture2
>
> links to you. I have found this to be less than comprehensive,
> however (smile).
>
> K.
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 17:28:34 2003
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	Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:26:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:26:48 -0800
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <12c.22af41f5.2b79ab27 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:25:59 EST
Subject: The absolete end of the in the box current SCI. comm.  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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               I'm sorry known physics will not explain this new  electrical 
phase conversion and conservation tech.   You should have investigared Tesla. 
 The evolutionary new Tech was Pub. in www.electrifyingtimes.com under 
confidential technologies after the editor came here. When they Toyota Corp. 
no less flew him to a near buy state. 

Gene Mallove The editor of Infinite Energy Mag sent out a researcher who was 
clueless even after building an obsolete version at their site.  The 
Executive Dean new state of the art 50 million dollar Tech. center here named 
after the billionaire CS Mott who was the prime builder of GM.  Along with a 
Non Eng. Vice president from Kettering Univ. Formally General Motors 
Institute 

 Have all ready saw it operational and were clueless now testing protocol is 
currently being discussed. The new process proves the first new electrical in 
a century. Anything else in science is a moot point compared to that. 
Considering A/C current is the dominate power providing situation on this 
planet. And this new tech. can cut usage by 75%. if so that is a total world 
changing situation. 

 Also a great deal of physics as you know it is now totally obsolete because 
there is totally new physics to replace it. But will not be Pub. because 
there is no reason to,  when visual demos can be provided. If so the current 
know it all arrogant SCI. comm is out of business. Put that is your pipe and 
smoke it. If you do you will choke on the majority of  your known theories.  
Drum roll please for the demise of the arrogant know it all elitist ones. 
Like the responder to my mail.  Evolve or be left behind it is your choice I 
care less. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 17:39:12 2003
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	Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:37:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:37:18 -0800
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <153.1b9dd0f7.2b79ad74 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:35:48 EST
Subject: Re: A possible explaination of an evolutionary new electrical concept?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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          I did not violate any rules so why did you send them.? I may have 
been a little harsh in my reply. But the fact is the majority on known in the 
box theory thinking will go the way of the dinosaur.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 17:50:00 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <16.2c7f5f7f.2b79afc6 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:45:42 EST
Subject: CF is a zero. But could function. Here is real serious new clean nuke reactor 
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--part1_16.2c7f5f7f.2b79afc6_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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           In a 5 gal bucket that does not create any waste or B grade 
material. and never reaches critical mass.  Now 6 of these operating steam 
engines or turbines that in turn operate generators would have provided power 
to the world trade center. 

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 10 19:12:14 2003
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEFPDHAA.knagel gis.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in LENR-CANR.org?
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Heck, it could be nothing more than Jed or Gene drinking a glass of cheap
wine and hitting the refresh button.


JC

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 06:22:23 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:20:28 -0500
To: <knagel gis.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
  LENR-CANR.org?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEEFODHAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>It can be VERY useful to download the raw logs from your web server, they 
>often contain clues as to where the traffic is coming from.

The raw data is saved in ASCII for one day, and then compressed and 
converted into files with names like: 200210-cdata.udb

Apparently, "udb" is some kind of database format developed by IBM years 
ago. Does anyone know a cheap (or free!) program that can read this format?

I access the data with Earthlink Urchin utility. It is a pretty good 
program, with a cute logo. But I wish it would just decode the entire file 
and hand it to me in a spreadsheet compatible ASCII format. See:

http://support.earthlink.net/mu/1/psc/img/walkthroughs/web/Site_Statistics/Urchin/7407.psc.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 06:22:35 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
  LENR-CANR.org?
In-Reply-To: <OE38OlbcrYP0QzBxhJT0000013a hotmail.com>
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Joe's Hotmail wrote:

>Heck, it could be nothing more than Jed or Gene drinking a glass of cheap 
>wine and hitting the refresh button.

Nope. We do not log in from Canada, Saudi Arabia or Tonga at 2:00 a.m. 
Please note the distribution of hours in the graphs at the web site. Also, 
on peak days hundreds of megabytes are downloaded in a few hours, which far 
exceeds the capacity of my ADSL and Gene's dial up modem.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 06:50:04 2003
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Subject: Where is Google software?
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>I'll bet if you looked at the logs, you'd see that in most of those
>cases the users saw your first link on the page, titled "A Students
>guide to cold fusion", and just clicked on it immediately. Then
>after a few minutes, when they got tired of reading, they hit
>the back button and downloaded the PDF file. You will see this
>in the log clearly, as the file requests will come one after the
>other and from the same IP address.

I do not think the Urchin utility gives me this level of detail.


>You should consider contacting Google for a bit of html
>which will use their search engine to index your site.

Where is this available? I do not see it under:

http://www.google.com/options/

Does it work with static web pages?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 07:54:32 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:49:47 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in  LENR-CANR.org?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030210163230.03828d90 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030211091324.00b09c90@pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Apparently, "udb" is some kind of database format developed by IBM 
> years ago. Does anyone know a cheap (or free!) program that can read 
> this format? 


Do you have MS Access?  I would think it could import universal database 
files.

Terry

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in 
  LENR-CANR.org?
In-Reply-To: <3E491B9B.9040301 rtpatlanta.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030210163230.03828d90 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030211091324.00b09c90 pop.mindspring.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Do you have MS Access?  I would think it could import universal database 
>files.

No, I do not have this product. I try to avoid products with "MS" moniker. 
Doesn't that stand for "multiple sclerosis"?

Sigh. I suppose I must submit sooner or later . . . Resistance is futile.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 08:54:53 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:39:26 EST
Subject: NO PROBLEM WADE the editor at technology review I will remove you  
To: Wade.Roush TechnologyReview.com, alyssa.danigelis@TechnologyReview.com,
        fischer ILP.mit.edu, editpress@wiredmag.com, e.kramer@earthlink.net,
        ted.loder unh.edu, ws21@cornell.edu, geford@ucdavis.edu,
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        solitron bellsouth.net, gtassist@sciam.com, director@faraday.ru,
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     From future mail but the fact remains we demo visually. Evolutionary 
totally world changing new electricity power conversion and conservation  
Technologies. Light years beyond main stream science's current level of 
understanding.           That have been seen operational by a new state of 
the art 50 million dollar Tech. center here. That was named after the 
billionaire CS Mott who was the prime builder of GM. Attending with them was 
A non ENG. vice President of Kettering Univ. which was formally General 
Motors Institute. 

They were clueless how to explain what they saw. Ask them The Executive Dean 
is Tom Crampon His No. is 810 762 0200   Plus testing protocol is being 
discussed presently.  And 99.99999% no one at MIT or anyone else in main 
stream science can explain.either. Because they have no math to do so. 

Without that Wade they are totally lost. In what I call the cold dark 
foreboding sea of ignorance.  But there is all new math but we will not Pub. 
it.  Because visual dramatic demos can be provided. That puts the Present 
SCI. Comm in a Catch 22 doesn't it. ????????

  If so MIT will be considered morons. And lose all their creditability.  You 
were given a chance to step up to the plate and investigate. But you 
apparently want to blow it.  So be it.  Now I will make total fools out of 
them and Technology Review. As I did the auto CO's. when the chief scientist 
of the Delphi/GM corp. who went to MIT sent me a mail saying he did not 
understand anything  

After he had been shown advanced evolutionary concepts also light years 
beyond his understanding. If you would have investigated and Pub. everybody 
on the planet would read your Pub. Now soon  nobody will.  MIT's arrogance 
and a dollar will buy them a cup of coffee. So what value does it have. It 
appears ZERO> doesn't it????    

Wade it is not wise sending me mail asking me to remove you. You were far 
better off just putting me in the kill file. Because now I have possibly made 
a total fool out of you for not investigating. Possibly the science story of 
the century. That was not real smart   

 You apparently have been breathing that totally polluted air in SAN FRAN to 
long and it CAUSED YOU to become  a ignorant of new situations no 
investigating MORON. Don't feel bad your not the first MORON editor that has 
blew it. 

Right Gene Mallove the editor of Infinite Energy Mag. Wade his  Mag. even 
tested here and built a obsolete version and was still clueless. Guess what 
Wade he went to MIT to.  That does not say much for MIT Wade. It appears all 
they produce is MORONS and MIT is a joke . Maybe they should have went to 
Cornell. Now IM bored and I need another Moron to slice up. Who is next. ?  

--part1_161.1ba1b776.2b7a813e_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
>From future mail but the fact remains we demo visually. Evolutionary totally=
 world changing new electricity power conversion and conservation&nbsp; Tech=
nologies. Light years beyond main stream science's current level of understa=
nding.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That have=
 been seen operational by a new state of the art 50 million dollar Tech. cen=
ter here. That was named after the billionaire CS Mott who was the prime bui=
lder of GM. Attending with them was A non ENG. vice President of Kettering U=
niv. which was formally General Motors Institute. <BR>
<BR>
They were clueless how to explain what they saw. Ask them The Executive Dean=
 is Tom Crampon His No. is 810 762 0200&nbsp;&nbsp; Plus testing protocol is=
 being discussed presently.&nbsp; And 99.99999% no one at MIT or anyone else=
 in main stream science can explain.either. Because they have no math to do=20=
so. <BR>
<BR>
Without that Wade they are totally lost. In what I call the cold dark forebo=
ding sea of ignorance.&nbsp; But there is all new math but we will not Pub.=20=
it.&nbsp; Because visual dramatic demos can be provided. That puts the Prese=
nt SCI. Comm in a Catch 22 doesn't it. ????????<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; If so MIT will be considered morons. And lose all their creditability=
.&nbsp; You were given a chance to step up to the plate and investigate. But=
 you apparently want to blow it.&nbsp; So be it.&nbsp; Now I will make total=
 fools out of them and Technology Review. As I did the auto CO's. when the c=
hief scientist of the Delphi/GM corp. who went to MIT sent me a mail saying=20=
he did not understand anything&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
After he had been shown advanced evolutionary concepts also light years beyo=
nd his understanding. If you would have investigated and Pub. everybody on t=
he planet would read your Pub. Now soon&nbsp; nobody will.&nbsp; MIT's arrog=
ance and a dollar will buy them a cup of coffee. So what value does it have.=
 It appears ZERO&gt; doesn't it????&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Wade it is not wise sending me mail asking me to remove you. You were far be=
tter off just putting me in the kill file. Because now I have possibly made=20=
a total fool out of you for not investigating. Possibly the science story of=
 the century. That was not real smart&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> <BR>
<BR>
 You apparently have been breathing that totally polluted air in SAN FRAN to=
 long and it CAUSED YOU to become&nbsp; a ignorant of new situations no inve=
stigating MORON. Don't feel bad your not the first MORON editor that has ble=
w it. <BR>
<BR>
Right Gene Mallove the editor of Infinite Energy Mag. Wade his&nbsp; Mag. ev=
en tested here and built a obsolete version and was still clueless. Guess wh=
at Wade he went to MIT to.&nbsp; That does not say much for MIT Wade. It app=
ears all they produce is MORONS and MIT is a joke . Maybe they should have w=
ent to Cornell. Now IM bored and I need another Moron to slice up. Who is ne=
xt. ?&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_161.1ba1b776.2b7a813e_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 09:20:09 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <3b.334e5b4a.2b7a894a aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:13:46 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Age of the earth,  Scientific red faces
To: yahoo ka9q.net, eric@voicenet.com, jgiglio@nova.umuc.edu, opa@aps.org,
        borderschess hotmail.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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     Actually Phil the planet appears to be  far older than 4.5 billion 
years.   It is probably closer to 8 billion.  That knowledge will be coming 
in the future but you will know where you heard it first, When it does.  They 
have done some serious MIS calculations because they only use 3 D thinking 
which is all they basically know.

 Also An eon appears to be far longer than 10 million years. Naturall we all 
know you could not be incorrect. But what if you are? GOD forbid that would 
be unthinkable wouldn't it Phil. I know the sky would fall and world would 
have to come to an end if you were. Your an arrogant fool that likes to puff 
up your giant ego. Do you know anything that is not in a book. ? Because  It 
appears you do not. .    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 09:44:56 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:35:16 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Missed opportunities
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <001601c2d1f3$f0ce3860$0a016ea8 cpq>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hindsight is 20/20, as we are all aware.

If we look at the post-war world "energy picture" in the larger =
perspective, it is now becoming clear to a number of observers that, as =
a nation, we missed the boat on the one-and-only energy option that =
would have given us some degree of energy independence for the new =
millennium.=20

Sometimes, choosing the "lesser of two evils" is not just advisable, it =
is critical to your dignity and your identity, if not your survival.

Fortunately, there are examples of other countries that have done a far =
better job than the USA at seeing the big picture and making the correct =
choices for the long term. If it were not for the example which has been =
set by these other countries, such as France and Canada, then the same =
folks that got us into this mess could just ignore the present kind of =
criticism - or write it off as little more than wishful thinking.=20

But its time to let the politicians (and the misguided =
environmentalists) know that, yes, we had the opportunity once to =
protect ourselves from petty oil-tyrants abroad and greedy oil-barons at =
home, and we blew it - plain and simple. Let's don't blow it again.

We cannot pin the blame in whole on the politicians for this missed =
opportunity, as both the politicians, the military, many ignorant =
environmentalists, and a large fraction of the scientific establishment =
are all to blame our present predicament, which is our failure to =
embrace *nuclear energy* as the only real option that could have bridged =
the gap between fossil fuel dependence and a coming breakthrough in =
alternative energy.=20

That future breakthrough, which most of the readers of this forum expect =
to come about in the next decade, may itself be wishful thinking - so of =
course, no one should rely on it, but the realization that we missed an =
opportunity to embrace nuclear energy thirty years ago is a painful =
truth that we should start to rectify now. Many observers will even =
venture to pinpoint the major turning point and political culprit, =
ironically a nuclear engineer himself and now a distinguished diplomat, =
whose timidity to stand up to the oil companies (and to Iran) set in =
motion a chain of events that puts us where we are today. Dependent, =
bereft, and in bed with our sworn enemies. Thanks for the legacy, Jimmy.

If nothing else, a focus on such emerging technologies as cold fusion =
(together with advances in nanotechnology) may have taught us one lesson =
that can perhaps even be implemented in regards to future nuclear energy =
-  *THINK SMALL.* More on that, and the research that points in that =
direction, in a future posting.

A revealing insight on the present situation in the Mid-East is gleaned =
by looking at the public stance of France. They are openly laughing at =
Rumsfeld and Bush, rightfully scorning those megalomaniacs to their =
face, and why? They don't need mid-east oil because they made the =
correct choice back when we blinked (or let ourselves be seduced by =
certain sisters).  If France does end up going along with us in Bush's =
war, it will only be because she reluctantly needs us as a future ally =
and trading partner. Not to mention saving her ass in two world wars.

About 80% of French electricity demands are met by nuclear energy and =
they have never had a serious accident. It's not that they are smarter =
than us, in fact they "borrowed" our technology. France generates about =
half a billion kWh of electricity from its fifty-eight pressurized water =
reactors with more on the way. Because of this nuclear capacity, the =
French also EXPORT energy, despite having zero oil reserves and little =
coal. I suspect the first country to produce hydrogen from nuclear =
reactors for transportation use will be the French. In a way, they have =
been *blessed* in having NO oil and consequently little economic =
domination by greedy petroleum companies, like the seven sisters that =
control our economy.

To paraphrase an interesting document from EV World, Mr. Bush's new =
initiative for fuel-cell research is "not as Birkenstock-friendly as it =
might seem." In fact, the proposal, which will cost $1.2 billion over =
five years, is little more than a thinly veiled scam to benefit certain =
petroleum companies on whom Bush's power base depends.  These companies =
are not only poised to become the main producers of hydrogen, but they =
are also likely to control the networks that distribute it. And they =
will provide us with the *worst* possible implementation of hydrogen, =
"dirty hydrogen" if you will.

That's because the production of hydrogen can be environmentally harmful =
when you take it from natural gas or coal which will create even more =
greenhouse gases than burning the fossil fuel as you prime fuel. =
According to the Energy Department, 96 percent of hydrogen produced in =
the world today comes from natural gas, oil and coal - the same fossil =
fuels that environmentalists would like to abandon.

To do it right, you have to make H2 from nuclear. And we have the =
technology in hand to do that !! But this is NOT what Bush is proposing, =
because such a route would shift his future political base away from the =
very companies that put him into office. When you can't beat 'em, join =
'em... it would seem... and then steal the show?

My apology for giving the administration some bit of credit in a =
previous post for the hydrogen initiative (you have to admit, it was a =
bit of PR genius) and thanks to those who were quick to catch on to the =
underlying political motivations. If only the "back story" got as much =
play as the headline...

Jones




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<DIV>Hindsight is 20/20, as we are all aware.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If we look at the post-war world "energy picture" in the larger=20
perspective, it is now becoming clear to a number of observers that, as =
a=20
nation,&nbsp;we missed the boat on the one-and-only energy option that =
would=20
have given us&nbsp;some degree of energy independence&nbsp;for&nbsp;the =
new=20
millennium. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sometimes, choosing the "lesser of&nbsp;two evils" is not just =
advisable,=20
it is critical to your dignity and your identity,&nbsp;if not your=20
survival.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fortunately, there are examples of other countries that have done a =
far=20
better job than the USA at seeing the big picture and making the correct =
choices=20
for the long term. If it were not for the example which has been set by =
these=20
other countries, such as France and Canada, then the&nbsp;same folks =
that got us=20
into this mess could just ignore the present&nbsp;kind of&nbsp;criticism =
- or=20
write it off as little more than wishful thinking. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But its time to let the politicians (and the misguided =
environmentalists)=20
know that, yes, we had the opportunity once to protect ourselves from =
petty=20
oil-tyrants abroad and greedy oil-barons at home, and we blew it - plain =
and=20
simple. Let's don't blow it again.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We cannot pin the blame in whole on the politicians for this missed =

opportunity, as both the politicians, the military, many&nbsp;ignorant=20
environmentalists,&nbsp;and a large fraction of the scientific =
establishment are=20
all to blame our present predicament, which is our failure to=20
embrace&nbsp;*nuclear energy*&nbsp;as the only real option that could =
have=20
bridged the gap between fossil fuel dependence and a coming breakthrough =
in=20
alternative energy. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That future breakthrough, which most of the readers of this forum =
expect to=20
come about in the next decade, may itself be wishful thinking - so of =
course, no=20
one should&nbsp;rely on it,&nbsp;but the realization that we missed an=20
opportunity to embrace nuclear energy thirty years ago is a painful =
truth that=20
we should start to rectify now. Many&nbsp;observers will even venture to =

pinpoint the major turning point and political culprit, ironically a =
nuclear=20
engineer himself and now a distinguished diplomat, whose timidity to =
stand up to=20
the oil companies (and to Iran) set in motion a chain of events that =
puts us=20
where we are today. Dependent, bereft, and in bed with our sworn =
enemies. Thanks=20
for the legacy, Jimmy.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If nothing else, a focus on such emerging technologies as cold =
fusion=20
(together with advances in nanotechnology) may have taught us=20
one&nbsp;lesson&nbsp;that can perhaps even be implemented in regards to =
future=20
nuclear energy -&nbsp; *THINK SMALL.* More on that, and the research =
that=20
points&nbsp;in that direction,&nbsp;in a future posting.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A revealing insight on the present situation in the&nbsp;Mid-East =
is=20
gleaned by looking at the public stance of France. They are openly =
laughing at=20
Rumsfeld and Bush, rightfully scorning those megalomaniacs to their =
face, and=20
why? They don't need mid-east oil because they made the correct =
choice&nbsp;back=20
when we blinked&nbsp;(or let ourselves be seduced by certain sisters). =
&nbsp;If=20
France does end up going along with us in Bush's war,&nbsp;it will only =
be=20
because she reluctantly&nbsp;needs us as a future&nbsp;ally and trading =
partner.=20
Not to mention saving her ass in two world wars.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>About 80% of French electricity demands are met by nuclear energy =
and they=20
have never had a serious accident. It's not that they are smarter than =
us, in=20
fact they "borrowed" our technology. France generates&nbsp;about half=20
a&nbsp;billion kWh of electricity from its fifty-eight pressurized water =

reactors with more on the way. Because of this nuclear capacity, the =
French also=20
EXPORT energy, despite having zero oil reserves and little coal. I =
suspect the=20
first country to produce hydrogen from nuclear reactors&nbsp;for =
transportation=20
use will be the French. In a way, they have been *blessed* in =
having&nbsp;NO oil=20
and consequently little economic domination&nbsp;by greedy petroleum =
companies,=20
like the seven sisters that control our economy.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To paraphrase an interesting&nbsp;document from EV World, Mr. =
Bush's new=20
initiative for fuel-cell research is "not as Birkenstock-friendly as it =
might=20
seem." In fact, the proposal, which will cost $1.2 billion over five=20
years,&nbsp;is little more than a thinly veiled scam&nbsp;to benefit =
certain=20
petroleum companies on whom Bush's power base depends.&nbsp; These =
companies are=20
not only poised to become the main producers of hydrogen, but they are =
also=20
likely to control the networks that distribute it. And&nbsp;they will =
provide us=20
with the *worst* possible implementation of hydrogen, "dirty =
hydrogen"&nbsp;if=20
you will.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That's because the production of hydrogen can be environmentally =
harmful=20
when you take it from natural gas or coal which will create even more =
greenhouse=20
gases than burning the fossil fuel as&nbsp;you prime fuel. According to =
the=20
Energy Department, 96 percent of hydrogen produced in the world today =
comes from=20
natural gas, oil and coal - the same fossil fuels that environmentalists =
would=20
like to abandon.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To do it right, you have to make&nbsp;H2 from nuclear. And we have =
the=20
technology in hand to do that !!&nbsp;But this is NOT what Bush is =
proposing,=20
because such a route would shift his future political base away from the =
very=20
companies that put him into office. When you can't beat 'em, join 'em... =
it=20
would seem...&nbsp;and then steal the show?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My apology for giving the administration some bit of credit in a =
previous=20
post for the hydrogen initiative (you have to admit, it was a bit of PR =
genius)=20
and thanks to those who were quick to catch on to the underlying =
political=20
motivations. If only the "back story" got as much play as the =
headline...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 09:53:05 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <62.2cc77141.2b7a8fde aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:41:50 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Re: small generator
To: tomcarr empathi.com, eric@voicenet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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          TOM   we have a device that uses basically all of the unit of 
electricity that we have shown to colleges when they have come out to see it. 
But it does not generate more than it takes in. That totally roadblock 
causing counter productive thinking has to be basically discarded. But theory 
is science's Bible and is like asking the Bible thumper to throw away his 
Bible.

  Simple  It uses all that it draws and does not waste any as operational 
situations do now. But science does not understand simple and they will not 
test. Because if they do and it is as advertised they are totally screwed if 
they cannot explain the how it functions.    

The theory only thinking science Comm. Cannot grasp simple. Because they have 
no math to explain the process without that they are totally lost. Because 
that is all they have. It is the same theory that my 99% burning gas fire 
place is.   But now it is possible with electricity and we will manuf. it  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 10:38:27 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <5a.17a481ca.2b7a9b9c aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:31:56 EST
Subject: Shawn you make some strong valid points 
To: sbishopa sfu.ca, karn@ka9q.net, eric@voicenet.com,
        borderschess hotmail.com, opa@aps.org, jgiglio@nova.umuc.edu,
        vortex-l eskimo.com, mike@ucsofa.com, editor@infinite-energy.com,
        technologyexplorers yahoogroups.com, davdart@texas.net,
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   Shawn you make strong points in your reply to Jerry about his one sided 
bible only thinking views. Now  Lets turn the tables and look at the same 
type of situation.  In regard to current main stream science's in the box 
thinking. That parallels bible only type thinking. Because  It is very closed 
and narrow minded also and will not investigate anything it thinks is not 
possible.

 But main stream can sit around all day making arm chair quarter back calls 
as Jerry also does in regard to his views. Which is all you types in the SCI. 
comm do in regard to your thinking. Your no different from him.  You both 
only have  totally one sided views. Your the pot calling the Kettle black. 

As usual Shawn  you have succeeded in making a total fool out of yourself. As 
you did when you Pub. the views of how the church use to be which are 
basically the same as main stream science's is today. Don't  you ever learn 
to look at something from different angles before you Pub. it. 

 It appears you do not which is not wise.  Are you and Eric and Karn 
brothers.? Because you all think the same. And use my knowledge is the only 
knowledge that could possibly be correct attitude. Only total fools do that.  
I love skeptics they are so easy. They never bore you. If you want to here 
ignorant remarks just read their mails.     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 11:47:20 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <46.35355126.2b7aabfe aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:41:50 EST
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities I'M sorry Nuclear is not the answer 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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            I"M sorry Nuclear is not the answer. I can show you a new clean 
nuclear reactor technology.  That can be contained  in a 5 Gal bucket and 
does not create any waste or B grade material and never reaches critical 
mass. 6 units  operating steam engines or turbines that in turn operate 
Gen.'s. Would provide power to the old World trade center and renders current 
nuclear thinking back to the stone age. 

But it is still not the answer. It is only for high demand power requirement 
applications. AND  is just one application in a multitude of new totally 
different power conversion and propulsion situations. That are light years 
beyond current Sci. understanding    Welcome to the 23 RD century. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 11:55:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:51:32 EST
Subject: FROM a Visionary The Founder of Earth day
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                    A CRY TO GOD FROM PLANET EARTH

                                   By John McConnell - Founder of Earth Day
                                           
Dear God,

As we enter a new millennium, more than ever before people of every creed and 
culture want an answer to the ultimate questions that have troubled 
civilization through its history.

What is life all about?  Why are we here?  Where are we going?

Science and religion have sought answers and end up with only more questions. 
 Beliefs of every kind abound.  But no one provides evidence that all fair 
minded parties can agree on.  No one has presented a video tape documenting 
the existence and nature of heaven - or other dimensions of reality.

Logic demands a cause for every effect.  The more we learn about the Cosmos, 
the more our amazement at both the chaos and order we find.  Science now 
acknowledges there can be no creation without a Creator.  Chaos cannot cause 
beauty, order, music and meaning.

To create art or music, human beings need intellect and emotion.  The Creator 
of Earth and stars must be far superior to us in mind and consciousness.  The 
greatest wisdom we know is love.  The Creator must be a God of love.

Religions have at times caused wars and violence.  But at their best, they 
have brought harmony and peaceful progress in the human adventure.  I'm 
grateful for my Christian faith and the reverence for life it has engendered. 
 My life experience has given me a vision of the challenge and opportunity 
the human family now has to rejuvenate our planet and its human cultures with 
an Earth Trustee agenda to eliminate poverty, pollution and violence.  We 
have the technology and information that rightly used could make this nest in 
the stars a garden of Eden.

I pray and think you hear my prayers.  Sometimes miracles happen and I give 
you thanks.  But I cannot understand the unanswered prayers and the pain and 
suffering that millions of people experience.

You must exist. But Dear God, why don't you show yourself in an unmistakable 
way and tell the whole human family why we are here and what we should do?

Strangely, my heart is filled with deep anguish -- and exhilarating hope.  
Please help.

Reverently,

John McConnell
******************************************
To Earth Trustee friends of Earth Day...While we are confronted with great 
mysteries about the big picture, we can all agree that we have an obligation 
to help take care of the skin of life that covers our globe - and seek fair 
benefits for all people.  Do what you can to aid this purpose.  Prove the 
value of your faith by what you do to nurture God's creation - the amazing 
skin of life that covers our globe.

<A HREF="http://www.earthsite.org/">www.earthsite.org</A>
John McConnell





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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3><B>  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;A CRY TO GOD FROM PLANET EARTH
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;By John McConnell -=
 Founder of Earth Day
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>Dear God,
<BR>
<BR>As we enter a new millennium, more than ever before people of every cree=
d and culture want an answer to the ultimate questions that have troubled ci=
vilization through its history.
<BR>
<BR>What is life all about? &nbsp;Why are we here? &nbsp;Where are we going?
<BR>
<BR>Science and religion have sought answers and end up with only more quest=
ions. &nbsp;Beliefs of every kind abound. &nbsp;But no one provides evidence=
 that all fair minded parties can agree on. &nbsp;No one has presented a vid=
eo tape documenting the existence and nature of heaven - or other dimensions=
 of reality.
<BR>
<BR>Logic demands a cause for every effect. &nbsp;The more we learn about th=
e Cosmos, the more our amazement at both the chaos and order we find. &nbsp;=
Science now acknowledges there can be no creation without a Creator. &nbsp;C=
haos cannot cause beauty, order, music and meaning.
<BR>
<BR>To create art or music, human beings need intellect and emotion. &nbsp;T=
he Creator of Earth and stars must be far superior to us in mind and conscio=
usness. &nbsp;The greatest wisdom we know is love. &nbsp;The Creator must be=
 a God of love.
<BR>
<BR>Religions have at times caused wars and violence. &nbsp;But at their bes=
t, they have brought harmony and peaceful progress in the human adventure. &=
nbsp;I'm grateful for my Christian faith and the reverence for life it has e=
ngendered. &nbsp;<I><U>My life experience has given me a vision of the chall=
enge and opportunity the human family now has to rejuvenate our planet and i=
ts human cultures with an Earth Trustee agenda to eliminate poverty, polluti=
on and violence.</I></U> &nbsp;We have the technology and information that r=
ightly used could make this nest in the stars a garden of Eden.
<BR>
<BR>I pray and think you hear my prayers. &nbsp;Sometimes miracles happen an=
d I give you thanks. &nbsp;But I cannot understand the unanswered prayers an=
d the pain and suffering that millions of people experience.
<BR>
<BR>You must exist. But Dear God, why don't you show yourself in an unmistak=
able way and tell the whole human family why we are here and what we should=20=
do?
<BR>
<BR>Strangely, my heart is filled with deep anguish -- and exhilarating hope=
. &nbsp;Please help.
<BR>
<BR>Reverently,
<BR>
<BR>John McConnell
<BR>******************************************
<BR>To Earth Trustee friends of Earth Day...While we are confronted with gre=
at mysteries about the big picture, we can all agree that we have an obligat=
ion to help take care of the skin of life that covers our globe - and seek f=
air benefits for all people. &nbsp;Do what you can to aid this purpose. &nbs=
p;Prove the value of your faith by what you do to nurture God's creation - t=
he amazing skin of life that covers our globe.
<BR>
<BR><A HREF=3D"http://www.earthsite.org/">www.earthsite.org</A>
<BR>John McConnell
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></B></FONT></HTML>

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
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Jones Beene wrote in support of fission energy. I think fission plants are 
far too expensive, and they are as obsolete as vacuum tube computers. Beene 
writes:

>But its time to let the politicians (and the misguided environmentalists)

Politicians and environmentalists had nothing to do with the demise of the 
fission industry. The industry destroyed itself with bad engineering and 
high costs. The politicians and the government lavished billions of dollars 
on the fission industry, but the electricity from fission is far too 
expensive, when you factor in all costs. For example, the fission industry 
is the only institution in the U.S., Japan or Europe that is exempt from 
liability for accidents. If it had to purchase insurance -- the same as any 
school, dry cleaner or computer programming shop -- it would go out of 
business overnight. No insurance executive in his right mind would write a 
policy for an industry that caused two of the most expensive industrial 
accidents in history, and which faces incalculable future expenses for 
dismantling and cleaning up retired facilities. The DoE's project to clean 
up nuclear weapons sites has been the most expensive environmental 
nightmare in history.


>We cannot pin the blame in whole on the politicians for this missed 
>opportunity, as both the politicians, the military, many ignorant 
>environmentalists, and a large fraction of the scientific establishment 
>are all to blame our present predicament, which is our failure to embrace 
>*nuclear energy* as the only real option that could have bridged the gap 
>between fossil fuel dependence and a coming breakthrough in alternative energy.

The Japanese "breakthrough" nuclear power breeder program would have 
produced electricity 5 to 15 times more expensive than any other 
conventional source, according to MITI (N.Y. Times, 1992).

Over the next 6 years, the Europeans are building offshore North Sea wind 
farms with capacity equivalent of 12 average U.S. nuclear power plants. (I 
have adjusted the output for the actual average output of wind and fission 
plants.) That's about one-tenth of the total U.S. nuclear capacity. The 
equipment is three to six times cheaper than nuclear plants per MW, and the 
fuel cost is zero. There are no future liabilities or clean up costs. There 
is enough offshore wind in Europe to supply four times their present energy 
needs. There is enough wind in the U.S. to supply all of North & South America.


>Dependent, bereft, and in bed with our sworn enemies. Thanks for the 
>legacy, Jimmy.

It is ridiculous to suggest that a one-term president in the 1970s would 
have this much influence!


>About 80% of French electricity demands are met by nuclear energy and they 
>have never had a serious accident.

The French have announced they are not building any more reactors. The ones 
they have are approaching retirement. They will have to start building new 
ones now to keep the industry alive. They will also have to persuade their 
citizens to pay through the nose for electricity while the rest of Europe 
uses cheaper wind power. There is no possibility they can do this.

Fission power looked like a good option in the 1950s, but it is now 
obsolete. In the 1980s and 90s, wind power and other options left it far 
behind. Fission also takes up far too much space compared to wind power. 
European wind power takes up zero land space (it is offshore). As Rubbia 
pointed out, when you factor in the land required for uranium mining, 
processing and waste disposal, fission takes up a great deal of land. It 
doesn't just "take it" land; it destroys it for thousands of years to come.

- Jed


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 Hi Michael,

 The capacitance of an insulator is a function of it's surface area. Hence for a
sphere
 C = 4(pi)*8.85e-12*R  farads.

 Limestone runs as high as 2200 kg per cubic meter, and granite as high as about 2750
kg per cubic meter.

The potential energy mgh = 1/2 CV^2 establishes the voltage required to raise a 2200
kg limestone block 0.01 meters ( one centimeter) so that it would act as an "airslide"
is 2200*9.8*0.01 = 2156 joules.

Assuming a limestone block with 6 square meters of surface area, C = 6*8.85e-12 =
5.3e-11  farads.  The V = (2156/(0.5*5.3e-11^1/2 = 2,850,000  volts.

Charge Q = CV

For a granite block of the same size  V = 3,186,000 volts. Increasing the size/tonnage
increases the surface area accordingly, so the required electrostatic potential
remains about the same.

Interestingly a 2.75 kg (10 cm cube) block of granite would require  ~ 1,000,000 volts
to levitate one cm.  :-)

 Fred


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 14:58:04 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:46:05 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
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Jed Rothwell  wrote in support of wind energy and in opposition to fission energy. "I think fission plants are  far too expensive, and they are as obsolete as vacuum tube computers...

Sure there have been some problems with nuclear energy, but we need to put them into perspective with the benefits, and realize that we can deal with them. The problems pale in comparison to the alternatives. Especially wind energy - "low cost" wind energy, for instance, is an oxymoron, at least here in the USA. 

Yes, it has been tried, especially in California, thanks to very generous tax incentives,  but it cannot be justified economically at the present in the USA because it is very unreliable and extremely costly.  The unsubsidized cost of wind energy is  far higher - two or more times higher - than even the cost of brand-new fission energy, which itself is a cost that is greatly inflated due to unnecessary political considerations and past engineering mistakes, which admittedly, should be corrected. 

Apparently you forgot to read:
http://www.windpower.dk/tour/econ/pitfalls.htm
"Pitfalls in Wind  Energy Cost Analysis" by the Danish Wind Council

Or have never considered these indisputable facts about nuclear fission

1)  Nuclear energy preserves the environment:

Nuclear energy has the lowest impact on the environment including air, land, water and wildlife-of any energy source, because it does not emit harmful gases, isolates its waste from the environment, and requires less area to produce the same amount of electricity as other sources.

Wind energy uses more raw materials per kilowatt produced than any other form of energy and is wasteful of land area.

2) Nuclear energy provides reliable electricity:

Nuclear energy is a dependable provider of electricity with an unmatched safety record,  long periods of efficient operation, and multiple layers of safety protection

3) Nuclear energy is an economical energy resource:

Nuclear energy is efficient and cost-effective because of stable fuel prices, high plant performance, modernized plants, and renewal of plant licenses.

According to the Nuclear Energy Institute, American Wind Energy Association, and American Solar Energy Society, the costs for producing electricity are: 

Coal = 2.1 cents per kwh
Nuclear = 2.3 cents per kwh
Natural gas = 3.6 cents per kwh
Oil = 3.9 cents per kwh
Wind = 5.5 cents per kwh
Solar = 22 cents per kwh

The figures are even more favorable for nuclear in 2003 because of the enormous recent jump in the price of oil and natural gas and in the structural materials needed for wind energy.

4) Nuclear energy contributes to national energy security:

As an integral part of the diverse US energy mix, nuclear energy is a secure energy source that the nation can depend on. Unlike some other energy sources, nuclear energy is not subject to unreliable weather or climate conditions, unpredictable cost fluctuation, or dependence on the whims of foreign suppliers like OPEC.

Not to mention, we don't have to go to war to secure our share. 

5) Abundant supply of resources:

Oil and natural gas will run out in the near future but there are still adequate supplies of uranium in the USA and available from "real" allies such as Canada, South Africa and Australia and we would not have to rely on unstable political regions, such as the Middle East, for its energy needs.

6) Limited wastes and Greenhouse gases:

Nuclear waste is limited and can be stored underground. Nuclear power is  contributes far less than conventional fuels to the greenhouse effect and acid rain.

a) Annual emissions avoided:

Each year, U.S. nuclear power plants prevent 5.1 million tons of sulfur dioxide, 2.4 million tons of nitrogen oxide, and 164 million metric tons of carbon from entering the earth's atmosphere. 25-year period emissions avoided. Between 1973 and 1998, U .S. nuclear generation avoided the emission of 87.3 million tons of sulfur dioxide, more than 40 million tons of nitrogen oxides, and 2.47 billion tons of carbon.

b) Acid Rain avoidance

In the U.S. Acid Rain program, 21 states achieved a 16.4 percent increase in nuclear generation between 1990-95 that avoided 480,000 tons of sulfur dioxide 37 percent of the required emissions reduction. Under the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments, no credit was allocated to the nuclear plants. But, based on the average value of publicly traded sulfur dioxide credits, this contribution would have been worth about $50 million. U.N.

The list goes on and can be viewed in its entirety at:
http://www.rgs.edu.sg/nuclearenergy/Nuclear%20debate.htm
 
> The French have announced they are not building any more reactors. The ones 
> they have are approaching retirement. They will have to start building new 
> ones now to keep the industry alive. They will also have to persuade their 
> citizens to pay through the nose for electricity while the rest of Europe 
> uses cheaper wind power. There is no possibility they can do this.

If you look at  "The World Competitiveness Yearbook 2002," you will see the French have the by far lowest electricity cost in Europe, almost as low as the USA despite a high VAT, and have not scheduled any new plants because structural testing done on the old ones indicates a useful life of 45-50 years instead of the 30 year initial criteria. They wont need any new ones until about 2015 and they will probably start replacing them well in advance of that time.
 
> Fission power looked like a good option in the 1950s, but it is now 
> obsolete.

Wrong. In the face of rising fossil fuel costs and the lack of other cost effective alternatives, it still looks good today, especially if re-engineered to rectify past mistakes.

> In the 1980s and 90s, wind power and other options left it far 
> behind. 

So inaccurate that it defies belief...Wind power is FAR too costly in the USA and FAR too unreliable.

> Fission also takes up far too much space compared to wind power. 

Wrong. Fission takes up far less space than land-based wind alternatives.

> European wind power takes up zero land space (it is offshore). 

We can't do that very well here, and they are having doubts there. See the above Danish citation...

Sorry, but it might be advisable to reeducate yourself on this topic before further embarrassing factual errors are disseminated....

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 15:03:00 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: NO PROBLEM WADE the editor at technology review I will remove you
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JCarey9622 aol.com, this is not the first request that you follow the list
rules.  Please observe the basic rules of this (vortex-l eskimo.com) list.
Not many here have violated 2 or 3 rules in many of their posts.  I hope
you actualy read the list of rules (below) this time and figure out which
rules you have violated.

At 11:39 AM 2/11/3, JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>Wade it is not wise sending me mail asking me to remove you. You were far
>better off just putting me in the kill file. Because now I have possibly made
>a total fool out of you for not investigating. Possibly the science story of
>the century. That was not real smart
>
> You apparently have been breathing that totally polluted air in SAN FRAN to
>long and it CAUSED YOU to become  a ignorant of new situations no
>investigating MORON. Don't feel bad your not the first MORON editor that has
>blew it.

Cross posting and use of cc's when posting to this list has been disallowed
by the list owner Bill Beaty (see rule #5.)  Any disrespectul tone of
writing is also prohibited (see rule #2).   Repeated efforts to justify or
sell one's invention or ideas to investors will likely upset the list
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matter will then be banished to another list.  This has happened in the
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"The Vortex-L list was created for discussions of professional research
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Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
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--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
> Politicians and environmentalists had nothing to do with the demise of
> the 
> fission industry. The industry destroyed itself with bad engineering
> and 
> high costs. The politicians and the government lavished billions of
> dollars 

Jed:

Been up close to the other side of this one.  In fact the fission
industry is truly being assasinated by politics and berocracy.  The "poor
engineering" is also a result of NRC meddeling.  Rather then allowing the
engineers to design a plant wholistically NRC shoves regulations on parts
and subparts the many times don't make sense.  Building of a plant takes
years and much of the engineering that is "approved" when you start to
build has to be changed dozens of times along the way as the regulations
flux and oscolate.  Nothing that NRC changes allows grandfathering of
plants that are "not on line" nor does it consider holistic project
requirements.  If a design is approved it should be licenced for the
duration of the projected build time.

Liability is an exemption because it directly reflects NRC activity. 
e.g. If you sew TU electric for injoury because of problems with the
comanchie peak plant the TU will site tens of thousands of changes to
there design required for NRC compliance and pass the buck.  

Also the gillions of dollars thrown into the industry by gov was in a
mannor of generating NRC changes to quiet the "SUV driving hipocrit
enviornmentelests" and not spent on building of plants.

Althoug I like most of us would rather see people being more efficent and
not needing huge amounts of power stolden form the past.       



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 15:22:20 2003
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Jones Beene wrote:

>The problems pale in comparison to the alternatives. Especially wind 
>energy - "low cost" wind energy, for instance, is an oxymoron, at least 
>here in the USA.

Not according to EPRI, which is a private industry group, by the way.


>Yes, it has been tried, especially in California, thanks to very generous 
>tax incentives . . .

The tax incentives for wind have been a tiny fraction of the subsidies for 
coal, oil and nuclear! The playing field is tilted heavily *against* wind. 
Oil, for example, gets a tax break for "depletion" -- that is, because it 
runs out. Wind power never runs out.


>,  but it cannot be justified economically at the present in the USA 
>because it is very unreliable and extremely costly.

No, it is cheaper than any other source of energy when you factor in the 
cost of pollution with coal, or the cost of decommissioning a nuclear plant.


>   The unsubsidized cost of wind energy is  far higher - two or more times 
> higher - than even the cost of brand-new fission energy . . .

Where on EARTH did you get these figures?!? Nothing published by EPRI, the 
DoE or any of the wind vendors agrees. Even the coal industry shills do not 
claim wind is this expensive!


>Apparently you forgot to read:
>http://www.windpower.dk/tour/econ/pitfalls.htm
>"Pitfalls in Wind  Energy Cost Analysis" by the Danish Wind Council

I am well aware of the factors described in this document. I took the 
capacity factor published here into account in my previous message, 
although it is too conservative for offshore installations. All of the 
economic factors described here apply to nuclear power, coal and other 
alternatives. However, most of the costs of these alternatives are hidden, 
whereas the cost of wind power is easy to account for. For example, coal 
pollution kills roughly 20,000 people per year in the U.S., but the 
economic impact of these deaths is not reflected in the cost of coal 
generated electricity, because the power companies do not compensate the 
victims. In other words, the industry gets away with mass murder. This 
problem could easily be fixed, and the lives could be saved, but that would 
raise the cost of coal electricity, and make it uncompetitive with wind, 
gas and other alternatives.

By the way, coal also kills far more birds than wind power, per KWH.


>Wind energy uses more raw materials per kilowatt produced than any other 
>form of energy and is wasteful of land area.

Actually, hydroelectricity uses more raw materials, and nuclear power uses 
almost as much land, when you take into account the mines, factories, waste 
deposits and railways needed to handle the fuel. Also, uranium mines and 
abandoned generators are the most expensive, dangerous and difficult waste 
sites on earth.


>Nuclear energy is a dependable provider of electricity with an unmatched 
>safety record,  long periods of efficient operation, and multiple layers 
>of safety protection

Except that when it fails as it did at TMI, the cost is so high it would 
bankrupt any power company on earth. It is a crap shoot: all or nothing. 
Probably it will cost about as much as electricity from wind or gas, but if 
something goes wrong, it may cost $100 billion. Fortunately for the power 
companies, they are not liable for most of this potential expense. The 
taxpayers will cover it. If the taxpayers had not paid after TMI, every 
nuclear plant in the U.S. would have been shut down permanently a month 
later. Only a fool would risk bankruptcy and unlimited liability.


>According to the Nuclear Energy Institute, American Wind Energy 
>Association, and American Solar Energy Society, the costs for producing 
>electricity are:
>
>Coal = 2.1 cents per kwh
>Nuclear = 2.3 cents per kwh
>Natural gas = 3.6 cents per kwh

These figures are vastly oversimplified. Add to them the hidden cost of 
20,000 dead people per year, the cost of cleanups, remediation, wars for 
oil and gas -- and possibly global warming -- and the numbers change 
radically. Coal, nuclear and natural gas have hidden costs, as I said.

- Jed


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= <unamity yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G
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Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
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...

Mars is not a 7G journey -- ask the military crews that have
flown there!

if you cannot get any answers to your questions from their
stony faces, and red necks, just ask any dissident physicist
or aerospace engineer on the web ...

at ONE GRAVITY thrust, the same as sitting in your chair in
front of your computer -- it takes 15 minutes to get to Earth
orbit, and two hours to get to the Moon ...

another 2 and 1/2 days -- and you are at Mars ...

[someone told me last week that these numbers were quoted on the
ArtBell show recently ... I circulated them on the web during
the mid-1990s ...]

our best guess is that the first 'jarheads' flew the trip,
on a nuclear fission rocket, about the year 1960 ... and they
would have earned triple overtime, and a BIG pension, to go
with all the protons, neutrons and larger radiation particles
they got to soak up their bums and other ...

the clean nuclear fusion military rockets probably did not
come online until the 1970s and 1980s ...

we will launch a website, probably next week, showing how the
multi-kilometer-long strato-fortresses, military bases, are
distributed over the Earth -- their velocities, altitudes, and
something about the aeroshell geometries, propulsion systems,
and military missions ...


millennium

http://fireships.com

...

__________________________________________________
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From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
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Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:42:59 -0600
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:35:55 +0000 (GMT), Millennium Twain
<unamity yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>we will launch a website, probably next week, showing how the
>multi-kilometer-long strato-fortresses, military bases, are
>distributed over the Earth -- their velocities, altitudes, and
>something about the aeroshell geometries, propulsion systems,
>and military missions ...

I've never heard of the military building something and not using it.
This must be a first.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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--- Millennium Twain <unamity yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> ...
> 
> Mars is not a 7G journey -- ask the military crews
> that have
> flown there!
> 
> if you cannot get any answers to your questions from
> their
> stony faces, and red necks, just ask any dissident
> physicist
> or aerospace engineer on the web ...
> 
> at ONE GRAVITY thrust, the same as sitting in your
> chair in
> front of your computer -- it takes 15 minutes to get
> to Earth
> orbit, and two hours to get to the Moon ...
> 
> another 2 and 1/2 days -- and you are at Mars ...

How about this then, the acceleration of gravity is
known to be 9.8 meters/sec^2, so every second we are
adding 9.8 meters/sec as the velocity. (excuse my
hillbilly math if I am mistaken) Now the speed of
light is 3 * 10^8 m/sec.  Using more of my hillbilly
math I find that estimating G as 10 m/sec^2: and
further;  So in 3 * 10^6 seconds, neglecting the
aspects of relativity, I should have reached the speed
of light.  So finding the no. of seconds in 24 hours,
this becomes 60 sec/min* 60 min/hr * 24 hr/ day =
86,400 sec/day, and further in 2.5 days 216,000
seconds have gone by, at which point my velocity is
close to 2,160,000 m/s by this estimation. Resorting
to my planetary travel guide, I find the Earth to be ~
93 million miles from the sun, and Mars to be some ~
140 million miles, leaving a closest travel point for
synchronius orbits to be a 47 million mile journey. 
Getting a little bit fancy with my hillbilly calculus,
now I can take the integral S V dx for the span 0 -
216,000 sec, where OOPS, I forgot how to do that
integral, so heck lets just find out how far I would
have gone at the final speed of 2,160,000 m/sec times
the total amount of seconds which becomes 2,160,000
m/sec * 216,000 sec = 4.66 * 10^11 meters, further
dividing by 1609 meters/miles = 290 million miles.
Looks like we might make it then. So I'm just a little
bit perturbed that I cant remember how to do the
calculus. What kind of hillbilly scientist am I
anyways if I cant even do this simple integral? Can
anyone reveal how I might integrate G as 10 m/sec^2
for 0 to 216,000 seconds? 

HDN, stumped as usual!


=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Harvey Norris" <harvich yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G

Harvey Norris wrote:


>
> --- Millennium Twain <unamity yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > Mars is not a 7G journey -- ask the military crews
> > that have
> > flown there!
> >
> > if you cannot get any answers to your questions from
> > their
> > stony faces, and red necks, just ask any dissident
> > physicist
> > or aerospace engineer on the web ...
> >
> > at ONE GRAVITY thrust, the same as sitting in your
> > chair in
> > front of your computer -- it takes 15 minutes to get
> > to Earth
> > orbit, and two hours to get to the Moon ...
> >
> > another 2 and 1/2 days -- and you are at Mars ...
>
Actually, at one  g (9.8 meters/sec^2) it takes 18.7 minutes to earth escape velocity
(1.1e4 meters/second) and assuming a total ship mass of 100 Tonnes (100,000 kg) it
takes 6.0e12 joules; (K.E = 0.5 mv^2)  just to get this ship to escape velocity. In 2
and 1/2 days at 7 g's you would be clicking along at 1.48e7 meters/second (14.8
million meters per second) and your kinetic energy would be 1.1e19 joules, the energy
of 2,614 One-Megaton H-Bombs. One Megaton = 4.2e15 joules. Or 122 kilograms of
antimatter
annihilated with 122 kilograms of regular matter.  :-)

Since the ship is not equipped with "vacuum brakes", may I suggest that you accelerate
1/2 way, then decelerate the other half and you trip will take (2)^1/2 times 2 and 1/2
days, or 3 and 1/2 days.

Even at 87% of the speed of light (2.61e8 meters/second) the ship's relativistic mass
is twice it's rest mass and it's K.E. is now 6.8e21 joules and would require 75.6
tonnes of antimatter plus 75.6 tonnes of regular matter to annihilate with, which is a
bit of a problem.  :-)

:
Velocity V = Vo + a*t
and Distance S = Vo + 0.5*a*t^2

Fred


> How about this then, the acceleration of gravity is
> known to be 9.8 meters/sec^2, so every second we are
> adding 9.8 meters/sec as the velocity. (excuse my
> hillbilly math if I am mistaken) Now the speed of
> light is 3 * 10^8 m/sec.  Using more of my hillbilly
> math I find that estimating G as 10 m/sec^2: and
> further;  So in 3 * 10^6 seconds, neglecting the
> aspects of relativity, I should have reached the speed
> of light.  So finding the no. of seconds in 24 hours,
> this becomes 60 sec/min* 60 min/hr * 24 hr/ day =
> 86,400 sec/day, and further in 2.5 days 216,000
> seconds have gone by, at which point my velocity is
> close to 2,160,000 m/s by this estimation. Resorting
> to my planetary travel guide, I find the Earth to be ~
> 93 million miles from the sun, and Mars to be some ~
> 140 million miles, leaving a closest travel point for
> synchronius orbits to be a 47 million mile journey.
> Getting a little bit fancy with my hillbilly calculus,
> now I can take the integral S V dx for the span 0 -
> 216,000 sec, where OOPS, I forgot how to do that
> integral, so heck lets just find out how far I would
> have gone at the final speed of 2,160,000 m/sec times
> the total amount of seconds which becomes 2,160,000
> m/sec * 216,000 sec = 4.66 * 10^11 meters, further
> dividing by 1609 meters/miles = 290 million miles.
> Looks like we might make it then. So I'm just a little
> bit perturbed that I cant remember how to do the
> calculus. What kind of hillbilly scientist am I
> anyways if I cant even do this simple integral? Can
> anyone reveal how I might integrate G as 10 m/sec^2
> for 0 to 216,000 seconds?
>
> HDN, stumped as usual!
>
>
> =====
> Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 11 20:43:43 2003
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= <unamity yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G
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...

for a 3 and 1/2 day Mars trip -- accelerate for nearly two days, then
decelerate for another (nearly) two days -- your maximum velocity,
at 'turnaround' point, would be less than one percent of Vc (average
lightspeed).

it takes one year, at one gravity acceleration, to reach Vc.


mt

[note there is no maximum or constant lightspeed -- Vc is a number
derived from an average of different light velocities -- velocities
which are a function of the frequency of the light wave, and of the
velocity and nature of the medium in which it is traveling ...]

http://unamity.com/YoniStar

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--- Millennium Twain <unamity yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> ...
> 
> for a 3 and 1/2 day Mars trip -- accelerate for
> nearly two days, then
> decelerate for another (nearly) two days -- your
> maximum velocity,
> at 'turnaround' point, would be less than one
> percent of Vc (average
> lightspeed).
> 
> it takes one year, at one gravity acceleration, to
> reach Vc.

The funny thing about relativity of course, is that if
this were true, that it would take one year, thats how
we as outside observers would interpret the time
period. But to the observers on the ship recording
their travel through space, they would appear to
themselves as traveling many times the speed of light,
relatively speaking of course.

HDN

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
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Sounds like a time-coincident periodic function
 describing and based upon
 social/infrastructural propagation delays
 which Hari Seldon (see: Foundation, by Isaac Asimov)
 would have been interested in...
In theory, a person could map the social interest structure
 by releasing bits of news, and build a network map
 which shows weak and strong locales of interest
 based on response level against time.
 (Locales, in this instance might be either geographic
   or social, but probably some archane fuction of both)

But more likely it is a function of (Jed's?) refresh button
 convoluted by diurnal blood levels <;)}

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 2003 February 11 05:38
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Does anyone know what causes bursts of interest in
> LENR-CANR.org?
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> >The graph shows an interesting pattern. Bursts of downloads are followed
> >by quiescent periods. . . .
>
> I was just talking to Scott Chubb while looking at this graph, and it I
> suddenly realized what the pattern resembles. It looks like Fleischmann's
> calibration pulses. In relaxation the heat does not return to the
> baseline.
>
> Perhaps these waves are caused by some sort of average mental incubation
> period. Person A reads a paper, mulls it over for some period of time X
> days, and then recommends to an average 1.4 other people that
> they read it.
> Somehow groups of readers synchronize the read+recommend cycle.
>
> The same papers are being downloaded again and again, which I
> assume means
> these are new readers. The same people would not repeatedly download a
> paper. I presume most people would save a copy . . . unless they have a
> fast Internet connections and they grab a copy from the Internet whenever
> they want to check something in a paper, rather than saving a local copy.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Millennium Twain" <unamity yahoo.co.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G

M Twain wrote:
>
> for a 3 and 1/2 day Mars trip -- accelerate for nearly two days, then
> decelerate for another (nearly) two days -- your maximum velocity,
> at 'turnaround' point, would be less than one percent of Vc (average
> lightspeed).
>
Okay, that would be less than 3e6 meters/second.

Still, the Kinetic energy (1/2 mV^2) for a 100 tonne craft (about the empty weight of
a space shuttle) at that velocity, would be 4.5e17 joules which is about 1/2 the
earth's 1 quad/day total daily energy production  and use.

> it takes one year, at one gravity acceleration, to reach Vc.
Right. Throw out the Vc "speed limit" and switch to "propellantless propulsion" and
you still have to expend 4.5e21 joules, or  4,500 Quads which is 12 years worth of the
earth's energy production and use.
>
> [note there is no maximum or constant lightspeed -- Vc is a number
> derived from an average of different light velocities -- velocities
> which are a function of the frequency of the light wave, and of the
> velocity and nature of the medium in which it is traveling ...]
>
I disagree, but, be that as it may, I'll bet you will find "wormholes" in that theory
before you find one in space.   :-)

Fred
> http://unamity.com/YoniStar
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
>

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G
Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
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Millennium Twain wrote:

>at ONE GRAVITY thrust, the same as sitting in your chair in
>front of your computer -- it takes 15 minutes to get to Earth
>orbit, and two hours to get to the Moon ...

At one gravity of thrust you go nowhere. It is exactly the same as sitting 
in your chair, because you do not go up or down. The rocket hovers, like a 
helicopter. Under two gravities of thrust, you reach orbit in 15 or 20 minutes.

A space elevator would probably impose about 1.2 G on the passengers, I 
believe. There are no technical reasons why it should not go faster, but 
passengers would probably feel uncomfortable after a few hours at higher 
thrust. Clarke and many others predicted space elevators might be possible 
in the distant future, but it turns out one might be doable even now. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,57536,00.html

A properly designed space elevator would use no more energy than an 
electric railroad engine on level ground. It would expend a great deal 
going up, and get most of it back on the return journey, with regenerative 
braking.


>Mars is not a 7G journey -- ask the military crews that have
>flown there!

That's ridiculous.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:05:35 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points 
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	Dear J Cary and Shawn,

	 Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points.
	First, to examine some general fgures.  Several times in the
past, Jack, you have described a set up which powered a converter from the
mains electrical lines which then applied the resultant electricity to an
Air Compressor.

	To ALL Parties:

	To begin would you, Jack, and possibly others who may have a copy
of the original description from Jack please allow us all to see the
figures related to electric power, horse power or compressor and the
possible alterations of any motors used to provide the rotary power for
the Air Compressor.
	Once we all have the original figures we can proceed to the next
step.  It is best if ALL parties have the same figure.
	PLEASE:  Present the figures only and not any explanation, just
the data.  This will all work wel if we simple first look at the
information.
	There will be all the time in the world for discussion after we
have figures and simple honest questions asked and answered.

	Thank you to all parties for the time this takes.

	Respectfully and with Very best regards and in good spirit,

						JH

	

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>    Shawn you make strong points in your reply to Jerry about his one sided 
> bible only thinking views. Now  Lets turn the tables and look at the same 
> type of situation.  In regard to current main stream science's in the box 
> thinking. That parallels bible only type thinking. Because  It is very closed 
> and narrow minded also and will not investigate anything it thinks is not 
> possible.
> 
>  But main stream can sit around all day making arm chair quarter back calls 
> as Jerry also does in regard to his views. Which is all you types in the SCI. 
> comm do in regard to your thinking. Your no different from him.  You both 
> only have  totally one sided views. Your the pot calling the Kettle black. 
> 
> As usual Shawn  you have succeeded in making a total fool out of yourself. As 
> you did when you Pub. the views of how the church use to be which are 
> basically the same as main stream science's is today. Don't  you ever learn 
> to look at something from different angles before you Pub. it. 
> 
>  It appears you do not which is not wise.  Are you and Eric and Karn 
> brothers.? Because you all think the same. And use my knowledge is the only 
> knowledge that could possibly be correct attitude. Only total fools do that.  
> I love skeptics they are so easy. They never bore you. If you want to here 
> ignorant remarks just read their mails.     
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 12 08:23:26 2003
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
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	Dear Vo.,

	Have any of the pro nuclear power advocates added in the cost and
damage of nuclear or radioactive material that MIGHT enter the environment
to their figures?

						JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 12 09:29:37 2003
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Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
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John Schnurer wrote:

>Have any of the pro nuclear power advocates added in the cost and damage 
>of nuclear or radioactive material that MIGHT enter the  environment to 
>their figures?

Yes, they have, but this is a very difficult estimate to make. No one can 
predict how bad the worst case scenario might be. It is kind of like trying 
to guess what the Al Qaeda may try to do to us next. The earliest estimate 
is described here:

http://www.ccnr.org/insurance.html

". . . the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission ordered a study of the possible 
consequences of a nuclear accident at a medium-sized (200 MW) nuclear 
reactor sited near (about 30 miles from) a medium-sized city. The resulting 
1957 AEC study, known as the Brookhaven Report, found that property damages 
could run as high as $7 billion (in 1957 dollars), mostly due to 
radioactive contamination of land, buildings, food and water. It also 
documented the thousands of deaths (immediate and delayed) that could be 
expected from such an accident, and the large numbers of defective children 
that would result both immediately and many years later."

I have heard that this report concluded that in a severe accident an area 
the size of Pennsylvania might be so contaminated it would be evacuated 
indefinitely. I hope this is an exaggeration, particularly if we are 
talking about Pennsylvania, which is one of my favorite places. It would 
not bother me as much to lose, say, Southern California.

The only actual data we can base this estimate on are:

1. Major nuclear accidents, such as TMI, Chernobyl and Connecticut Yankee 
(1997). The clean-up costs were astronomical, and the latter two will cost 
hundreds of millions, if not billions, more.

2. The cost of cleaning up nuclear bomb production facilities. This is the 
most expensive environmental clean up in history, and it is not over yet.

Based on this, many people conclude that another nuclear accident like TMI 
or Connecticut Yankee will bankrupt any power company, even though they are 
exempt from liability. This is why no sane power company executive would 
consider building a nuclear power plant.

Charles Ford thinks that Jimmy Carter somehow exerted influence as 
president to wreck the nuclear power industry, but I think electric power 
industry decided on its own to stop building nuclear plants. Even in 
France, where nuclear power has been most successful, the industry has 
decided to let the technology die. Power company executives, like OPEC 
officials, are ruthless people. They kill ~20,000 people in the U.S. even 
though it would cost only a few pennies per KWH to fix the problem and stop 
the slaughter. They do not give a fig for human lives or public opinion. 
Carter could not have persuaded them to give up nuclear plants, and Reagan, 
Bush and Bush II did not persuade them to build nuclear plants. They will 
do what is most profitable and least risky (fiscally risky), without regard 
for human life or the long term consequences on the environment.

- Jed


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Subject: Appended critique to "Student's Guide"
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Kirk Shanahan sent us a critique of the Guide. Storms and Staker wrote 
rebuttals to the critique. I was not sure where, in the LENR-CANR site to 
put these documents, so I ended up appending them to the end of the HTML 
version of the Guide.

Maybe I should put it elsewhere. It seems the Acrobat version of the Guide 
is more popular than the HTML version. Today 103 copies of the former were 
downloaded compared to 59 of the latter.

Ed Storms thinks we need a Letters to the Editor section. It is a little 
awkward launching such a section. We have only a few letters now, mainly 
these crackpot missives from Shanahan. We need several letters before we 
open the section, and we cannot solicit the letters until after we open the 
section.

In the 18th and 19th century publishers solved this problem by inventing 
letters. They made them up and signed fake names, sometimes debating both 
sides of an issue against themselves. Benjamin Franklin wrote his first 
series of fake letters for publication in his brother's newspaper when was 
16. He impersonated a middle aged woman, mailed the letters to the printing 
office, and fooled his own brother and the reading public. Not many 16 year 
olds could pull that off! It would be tough even today with the Internet.

People have not communicated with us about LENR-CANR much, so I doubt they 
will write letters. They visit the site in large numbers, which is all that 
matters. They are downloading many more papers than I ever imagined they 
would. I do not think people download these papers for fun. They are 
tedious to read and hard to understand. I find them very tedious to edit, 
proofread and prepare for publication, but it sure makes me pay close 
attention to the content.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:17:51 -0500
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Charles Ford thinks that Jimmy Carter somehow exerted influence as 
> president to wreck the nuclear power industry, but I think electric 
> power industry decided on its own to stop building nuclear plants. 


Unlikely.  JC got his Nulcear Engineering Masters Degree from Georgia Tech.

Pre-TMI (1974), Georgia Power's Plant Vogtle (1.64 GW) was projected to 
cost $660M.  Post-TMI (1979) regulatory changes (plus inflation and 
financing) put the cost over $8.8B upon completion of unit 2 (1989).

Increased cost and uncertainty surrounding waste disposal is what killed 
our nuclear industry, IMO.

http://www.aug.edu/augusta/students/magazine-march-97/nuclear.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 12 10:33:19 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:28:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= <unamity yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list]  One Gee thrust?  Or Two Gees?
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....


For a spaceplane, horizontal takeoff, essentially one gravity
thrust is required, and about 1000 seconds, to reach orbit.

Call it 1.1 Gee, as a wee bit extra is required to overcome
the drag ...

See the specs at:   http://unamity.com/specs

The L/D ratio of the aeroshell keeps you 'lifted' -- so
you do not require an extra 1 G of acceleration to 
'negate' 'gravity' ...


Millennium

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:43:28 EST
Subject: Re: Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points 
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In a message dated 2/12/03 11:05:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:


>    NO PROBLEM      Size of wire feeding 30 amp breaker 12/2 Common  
>       RTPC is a 3 HP.  Air COM is 5 HP. 3 phase but only has 3 Hp. 
> operating it. Power draw to operate it 400 WATTS, 6 ft. drill press driven 
> by one HP motor instead of 2 1/2  250 AMP arch welder set at 100 amps all 
> operational total draw 9 amps.   THAT IS ALL WE Give out is what it draws 
> and the production of that draw. 

     PLEASE  PLEASE   totally forget Over Unity "" THINKING ""  That process 
is high EFF. Only.     This is a new world There is nothing in your world  
PERIOD that begins to explain that. unless you have the new math to do it and 
that will not > be released.  WE ONLY show a lessor version at a customers 
> house. It is a 220v instead of 110. But still proves the first new theory 
> in a 100 years. It either functions or it does not there are no in 
> betweens. YOUR TOTALLY wasting YOUR time attempting to look at it with your 
> math.

  That is why demonstrations are provided that you can test. Just kiss your 
taught theories good bye and get over It  I 
> will only discuss this further over the phone.        810 618 9234 or I will 
> call you just provide a no. If necessary if you cannot comprehend I will 
> get a TECH> on the line because your 99.9999% not going to be able to 
> understand in mail because of your pre conceived understandings of 
> electricity that I"M sorry do not apply anymore.

    PLUS I do not speak scientific at all  but the Tech. can.  I speak 
futuristic advanced evolutionary concepts. For 
> example the Star trec level Naturally generated (not electromagnetism  just 
> the opposite as phase conversion is also)  collapsing folded inter active 
> field propulsion that DOW Corning saw operational around 1991  

   YOU all live in an opposite world than we do that is the reason for visual 
demos otherwise how could you begin to 
> relate. ???? You cannot answer that one. Unless you can visually see a 
> totally opposite situation than what your understanding tell you. there is 
> no way to relate. 

     If your ready to evolve let me know. If not stay in your little worlds I 
care less. This is only a tinker toy compared to the 
> next step we are presently preparing to make. That one is a gravity driven 
> situation. That will operate a gen. It works in theory. THEN we do not have 
> to deal with science's bible thumping God says it is not possible attitude 
> when it comes to their carved in stone forever conversion of energy laws.

    FYI if skeptics want  to listen for once instead of  spouting off all the 
time   WHAT happened is they did not fully understand > electricity when they 
> wrote those laws. NOW that there is possible a better understanding  those 
> laws have been totally rewritten. and the first one is ""ELECTRON FLOW 
> WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF""  THERE IS A NEW ONE THAT SCIENCE CAN START 
> SPOUTING"   Do you say thanks?   No you call me not very nice names 

   They finally have the correct one  DO you want to see a demo to prove 
it.??    No that is to easy for the skeptics. 
> Because if so what would they have to talk about anymore if their math went 
> down the drain.  THE answer IS NOTHING.     That is why any more 
> conversation will be by phone  TWO situations  on this list all ready have 
> saw demos. .    

     Herman why don't you settle this issue once and for all ?   To start You 
can call the 50 million dollar tech. center here 
> that has all ready saw it operational at 810 762 0200   ask for Dave Roach  
> The Executive Dean is hard to reach  Since your writing this to me.   Bruce 
> meland drove all the way from kentucky when Toyota flew him there   you 
> live a lot closer than that.  Plus your qualified to evaluate it appears.  
> 
> 
>     Dear J Cary and Shawn,
> 
>     Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points.
>     First, to examine some general fgures.  Several times in the
> past, Jack, you have described a set up which powered a converter from the
> mains electrical lines which then applied the resultant electricity to an
> Air Compressor.
> 
>     To ALL Parties:
> 
>     To begin would you, Jack, and possibly others who may have a copy
> of the original description from Jack please allow us all to see the
> figures related to electric power, horse power or compressor and the
> possible alterations of any motors used to provide the rotary power for
> the Air Compressor.
>     Once we all have the original figures we can proceed to the next
> step.  It is best if ALL parties have the same figure.
>     PLEASE:  Present the figures only and not any explanation, just
> the data.  This will all work wel if we simple first look at the
> information.
>     There will be all the time in the world for discussion after we
> have figures and simple honest questions asked and answered.
> 
>     Thank you to all parties for the time this takes.
> 
>     Respectfully and with Very best regards and in good spirit,
> 
>                         JH
> 
>     
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/12/0=
3 11:05:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; NO PROBLEM&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Size of wire feeding 30 amp breaker 12/2 Common&nbsp;=
 <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTPC is a 3 HP.&nbsp; Air COM is 5 HP. 3 phas=
e but only has 3 Hp. operating it. Power draw to operate it 400 WATTS, 6 ft.=
 drill press driven by one HP motor instead of 2 1/2&nbsp; 250 AMP arch weld=
er set at 100 amps all operational total draw 9 amps.&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT IS AL=
L WE Give out is what it draws and the production of that draw. </FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLE=
ASE&nbsp; PLEASE&nbsp;&nbsp; totally forget Over Unity "" THINKING ""&nbsp;=20=
That process is high EFF. Only.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a new world=20=
There is nothing in your world&nbsp; PERIOD that begins to explain that. unl=
ess you have the new math to do it and that will not <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE=
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0p=
x; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">be released.&nbsp; WE ONLY show a lessor version at a=20=
customers house. It is a 220v instead of 110. But still proves the first new=
 theory in a 100 years. It either functions or it does not there are no in b=
etweens. YOUR TOTALLY wasting YOUR time attempting to look at it with your m=
ath.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp; That is why demonstrations are provided that you can test. Just kiss=20=
your taught theories good bye and get over It&nbsp; I </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">will only discuss this further over the phone.&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 810 618 9234 or I will call you just provide a=
 no. If necessary if you cannot comprehend I will get a TECH&gt; on the line=
 because your 99.9999% not going to be able to understand in mail because of=
 your pre conceived understandings of electricity that I"M sorry do not appl=
y anymore.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLUS I do=
 not speak scientific at all&nbsp; but the Tech. can.&nbsp; I speak futurist=
ic advanced evolutionary concepts. For </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">example the Star trec level Naturally generated (not electr=
omagnetism&nbsp; just the opposite as phase conversion is also)&nbsp; collap=
sing folded inter active field propulsion that DOW Corning saw operational a=
round 1991&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOT=
E><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU all live in=
 an opposite world than we do that is the reason for visual demos otherwise=20=
how could you begin to </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">relate. ???? You cannot answer that one. Unless you can vis=
ually see a totally opposite situation than what your understanding tell you=
. there is no way to relate. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If=20=
your ready to evolve let me know. If not stay in your little worlds I care l=
ess. This is only a tinker toy compared to the </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">next step we are presently preparing to make. That one is a=
 gravity driven situation. That will operate a gen. It works in theory. THEN=
 we do not have to deal with science's bible thumping God says it is not pos=
sible attitude when it comes to their carved in stone forever conversion of=20=
energy laws.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff=
ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR=
>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FYI if sk=
eptics want&nbsp; to listen for once instead of&nbsp; spouting off all the t=
ime&nbsp;&nbsp; WHAT happened is they did not fully understand <BLOCKQUOTE T=
YPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN=
-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">electricity when they wrote those laws. NOW=20=
that there is possible a better understanding&nbsp; those laws have been tot=
ally rewritten. and the first one is ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF=
""&nbsp; THERE IS A NEW ONE THAT SCIENCE CAN START SPOUTING"&nbsp;&nbsp; Do=20=
you say thanks?&nbsp;&nbsp; No you call me not very nice names </FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; They finally ha=
ve the correct one&nbsp; DO you want to see a demo to prove it.??&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; No that is to easy for the skeptics. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=
 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Because if so what would they have to talk about anymore if=
 their math went down the drain.&nbsp; THE answer IS NOTHING.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; That is why any more conversation will be by phone&nbsp; TWO situa=
tions&nbsp; on this list all ready have saw demos. .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FON=
T><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Her=
man why don't you settle this issue once and for all ?&nbsp;&nbsp; To start=20=
You can call the 50 million dollar tech. center here </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" F=
ACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">that has all ready saw it operational at 810 762 0200&nbsp;=
&nbsp; ask for Dave Roach&nbsp; The Executive Dean is hard to reach&nbsp; Si=
nce your writing this to me.&nbsp;&nbsp; Bruce meland drove all the way from=
 kentucky when Toyota flew him there&nbsp;&nbsp; you live a lot closer than=20=
that.&nbsp; Plus your qualified to evaluate it appears.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear J Cary and Shawn,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please permit us all to examine&nbsp; Valid Points.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First, to examine some general fgures.&nbsp; Several time=
s in the<BR>
past, Jack, you have described a set up which powered a converter from the<B=
R>
mains electrical lines which then applied the resultant electricity to an<BR=
>
Air Compressor.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To ALL Parties:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To begin would you, Jack, and possibly others who may hav=
e a copy<BR>
of the original description from Jack please allow us all to see the<BR>
figures related to electric power, horse power or compressor and the<BR>
possible alterations of any motors used to provide the rotary power for<BR>
the Air Compressor.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Once we all have the original figures we can proceed to t=
he next<BR>
step.&nbsp; It is best if ALL parties have the same figure.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLEASE:&nbsp; Present the figures only and not any explan=
ation, just<BR>
the data.&nbsp; This will all work wel if we simple first look at the<BR>
information.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There will be all the time in the world for discussion af=
ter we<BR>
have figures and simple honest questions asked and answered.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you to all parties for the time this takes.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Respectfully and with Very best regards and in good spiri=
t,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; JH<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1d5.271074e.2b7befd0_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 12 10:58:49 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:53:17 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list]  One Gee thrust?  Or Two Gees?
In-Reply-To: <20030212182858.75668.qmail web20810.mail.yahoo.com>
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Millennium Twain wrote:

>For a spaceplane, horizontal takeoff, essentially one gravity
>thrust is required, and about 1000 seconds, to reach orbit.
>
>Call it 1.1 Gee . . .

OOO-Kaaay. In that case, tell us how much thrust is required to hover? How 
much downward thrust does a helicopter, rocket or dragonfly produce when it 
stays still in the air? When you sit in the helicopter as it hovers, how 
much do you weigh compared to when you sitting on the ground?

- Jed


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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: Missed opportunities
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:13:43 -0500
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Frankly, I don't see much difference between the
regulations and cost increases in the nuclear industry
and the airline industry. Both put life and properties
on the line, both require zero tolerance for error.

Ever do work on a small aircraft? You can go down
to the local hardware store, and pick up a pack of
bolts for about a buck. Buy that same pack of bolts,
but flight rated from an aviation supplier, and you're
looking at a several hundred percent markup...

Now I'm sure the tin foil hatters will whinge and
cry about how destructive this is to the airline
industry, how "if only we could shed the horrible yoke of 
evil government regulation, we'd have free air
travel and 100 dollar bills to ignite our cigars" etc etc.
That is, until the airplanes start dropping out of
the skies. 

I personally think nuclear power is a good technology,
but one from which we are FAR AWAY from using responsibly.
If you go back into the archives of this list, you will
find a discussion about an accident that occured in
Japan, where nuclear fuel was being processed 
in 5 gallon wash buckets. The guy doing the processing
had no clue to the notion of critical mass, and
just dropped the stuff into the bucket with the
nitric acid. When you are asked, "would you live next
to a nuclear power plant", bear in mind that the
issue is not the plant as such, but that guy with
the 5 gallon wash bucket. 

If regulations often seem stupid, it is because they
are designed to regulate stupid people.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:18 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities


Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Charles Ford thinks that Jimmy Carter somehow exerted influence as 
> president to wreck the nuclear power industry, but I think electric 
> power industry decided on its own to stop building nuclear plants. 


Unlikely.  JC got his Nulcear Engineering Masters Degree from Georgia Tech.

Pre-TMI (1974), Georgia Power's Plant Vogtle (1.64 GW) was projected to 
cost $660M.  Post-TMI (1979) regulatory changes (plus inflation and 
financing) put the cost over $8.8B upon completion of unit 2 (1989).

Increased cost and uncertainty surrounding waste disposal is what killed 
our nuclear industry, IMO.

http://www.aug.edu/augusta/students/magazine-march-97/nuclear.htm


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 12 11:00:37 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:56:04 EST
Subject: Re: Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: sbishopa sfu.ca, karn@ka9q.net, eric@voicenet.com,
        borderschess hotmail.com, opa@aps.org, jgiglio@nova.umuc.edu,
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        In the customers case that can be tested his 3 phase motor operating 
his eq has not been modified In the case Infinite energy test there were 
modifications internally to air Com drill press and arch welder so max EFF 
could be obtained at one time the system also fed back to the power co. but 
that practice had to be stopped when their transformers were damaged to the 
point they had to be replaced.  When that happened they were able to get a 
law passed in 5 days stopping him from selling them   rc_glider hotmail.com 
said he found out there was one when I told him about there being one.  He is 
one of Eric's Kreig's contacts

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:27:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= <unamity yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list]  One Gee thrust?  Or Two Gees?
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Re:  how much do you weigh when you are hovering in a helicoptor?

_______________________________

You are right.  A hovering helicoptor requires One Gee of thrust
to stay in place.  To move, to accelerate, directly upward, at 10
meters per second per second (velocity increase) -- it would
require Two Gees.

And you and I would feel Two Gees; would register as double
our 'weight' if we were standing on a bathroom scale ...

(I think!)


mt


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:57:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [AAA-list] Wired Magazine : Surviving 7G
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--- Millennium Twain <unamity yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> ...
> 
> Mars is not a 7G journey -- ask the military crews that have
> flown there!

Yah...   And we can't even keep the shuttle in one piece.  Where did you
find this little bit of tabloidish?
 
> if you cannot get any answers to your questions from their
> stony faces, and red necks, just ask any dissident physicist
> or aerospace engineer on the web ...

Any of yall remember this question?
Be aware of your audiance.  :-)

> at ONE GRAVITY thrust, the same as sitting in your chair in
> front of your computer -- it takes 15 minutes to get to Earth
> orbit, and two hours to get to the Moon ...

No...  iG is the same as sitting in your chair because that is what is
happening.  In order to move you need to exceed that.  and this 15
minuets to orbit is based on a 1G acceleration (not thrust) wich woudl
require 2G thrust (not acceleration)  

> another 2 and 1/2 days -- and you are at Mars ...

2 and a half days would be required only when we are at our closest to
the red god of war considering about 30 hr 'acceleration' and 30 hr
'deceleration' at 1G.  Excess of 1g is required to get off the planet.  

But there is more...

Assuming AAA means something like AC Antigrav Aviation...  (not American
Automobile Association) you will not be thrusting but something more like
detaching...  You will continue to move in the same direction that you
are currently moving so All you really need is a perfect 1G of antigrav. 


Once you disconnect yourself form "the green mother" (blue marble) you
simply stop sticking to the planet and it will rotate out from under you.
>From the viewpoint of an eirthbound spectator you would begin to
accelerate vertically and reach an altitude of something like 275 miles
after the first hour.  (assuming equatorial initial latitude)

But there is more...

There are two diferent measurements of G  Earthmound G=32ft/s^2 but
detached it is 33.14 ft/s^2 as the earthbound measurement is effected by
our own inertia as we accelerate downward to keep up whith the rotation
of the planet.  

So

You would need to apply more then 1G just to get off of this rock and
better then 1.035 to keep from crashing back into it. 

Get it?

By the way... Some of us are Vets and might just take a tiny bit of
offence to the stony faced redneck thing.



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Unlimited risk
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Frankly, I don't see much difference between the
>regulations and cost increases in the nuclear industry
>and the airline industry. Both put life and properties
>on the line, both require zero tolerance for error.

There is a gigantic difference between these two industries. It may be 
called "limited" versus "unlimited" risk. This is an important subject for 
people involved in alternative energy. It may seem a little off topic, but 
actually, by extension, it applies to investors, R&D strategy and many 
other germane issues.

When an airplane crashes, or a conventional coal-fired power plant 
explodes, the maximum liability to the corporation is limited. An insurance 
underwriter can estimate it in advance with confidence. Such accidents 
*must always be* insured against, but law -- except in the nuclear power 
industry. Congress exempted the nuclear industry because the potential 
liability in a nuclear accident is so unthinkably large that all of the 
insurance companies combined say they will not form a pool to cover it.

The biggest expense in an air crash is usually the money paid to the 
victims -- passengers and people on the ground. This is limited by law, and 
by the contract on the back of your ticket. One airplane crash cannot 
bankrupt a healthy air carrier, unless someone in the company is found 
guilty of extreme criminal negligence. Except in extraordinary 
circumstances, one airplane crash does not cause much damage on the ground. 
(The most extraordinary circumstances in history were obviously 9/11, when 
the pilots deliberately caused damage.)

Compare this to a nuclear power plant. When something goes wrong, the cost 
of the cleanup will be hundreds of millions of dollars, and possibly 
billions. No one can predict, because cleaning up is so difficult. There 
are only a few precedents, and all of them have been an underwriter's 
nightmare. The Connecticut Yankee accident damaged only a few components 
and hurt no one, but the cleanup effort cost $427 million so far, and the 
plant had to be permanently closed years ahead of schedule, losing much of 
the projected lifetime revenue. A similar small accident in a coal or gas 
generator would never cause the whole plant to shut down 20 years ahead of 
schedule.

In short, there is no way to establish the maximum cost of a nuclear plant 
accident. A coal-fired plant may explode and be totally destroyed. (This 
has actually happened.) The maximum cost can be estimated in advance with 
confidence. It includes cleanup, new equipment, and compensation to workers 
killed or wounded. It does not include unforeseeable factors such as having 
to permanently abandon an area the size of Pennsylvania.

Even when there is no accident, and everything works as planned in a 
nuclear plant, the cost of decommissioning simply cannot be calculated with 
confidence. Quote: ". . . estimated costs for decommissioning the [small!] 
179-megawatt Yankee Rowe reactor, shut down in 1991 increased from $120 
million price tag to $450 million."

http://www.nirs.org/radiationassault/decommiss.html

An axiom of business is that investors and executives do not like 
unlimited, open-ended risk. When given the choice of a large but well 
defined, limited risk, or a small unlimited risk, they usually select the 
former. For example, you might invest $1000 in a risky stock, such as 
Pets.com. The most you stand to lose is $1000 -- your entire investment. 
When you short sell Pets.com, and the price goes up instead of down, there 
is essentially no limit to how much you can lose. That is why people 
consider short selling excessively risky and somewhat disreputable, even 
when it targets a company on the skids that will almost certainly go out of 
business, such as Pets.com in its final months. The actual risk of betting 
against Pets.com at the end was small, but it was still unlimited. Someone 
might have come along at the last minute and rescued the company, making 
the stock worth something again.

There are extremely risky business enterprises that demand very high 
insurance rates. The best high-tech example is launching telecom 
satellites. Rockets often explode, so insurance rates are . . . 
astronomical. However, the likelihood of an explosion and the maximum loss 
from it can be calculated with confidence. The risk is large but limited. 
So the telcom companies have no trouble finding insurance companies willing 
to do business with them. The likelihood of a nuclear accident is small, 
but the potential loss is so large that the risk is virtually unlimited.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:48:00 EST
Subject:   Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
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THE HYDROGEN DISASTER OF THE FUTURE    There is a form that will not explode  
but is not using water also the mail to me at the bottom is from the chief 
Scientist of the Delphi/GM corp.   Who we an evolutionary new new Co in the 
planning stages showed. The next steps in evolution beyond probably all  you 
presently known about propulsion.  And he understood ZERO>

  Auto  Propulsion cannot be fuel driven at all or need recharging. They same 
goes for your house.   That is the step we have to make and can. The 
Technology exists    WAKE UP time is here ? It is time to totally and forever 
change the thinking  dynamics of a civilization 

>             IT IS  sometime in 2020 and we are all driving Hydrogen powered 
> autos and thinking we are not polluting with pressurized tanks. Because the 
> auto CO wanted to keep the filling station in the loop for control purposes 
> that emit water vapor which is acidic. 

     Which is bad enough because it causes acid rain to intensify to 
unimaginable levels. Which we were not told?  I'm 
> approaching the golden gate bridge from the North in heavy morning traffic 
> in a dense fog and at the same time my friend is approaching the free 
> bridge in NYC. So as to enter Mid town and he is in heavy fog and traffic 
> also 
> 
> And there is an accident in both situations up ahead of us and the hydrogen 
> system in both situations is ruptured plus because of the fog there is a 
> pile up and other systems are ruptured also and the electrical systems. In 
> just one the wreaked auto causes a spark to happen.  What happens then?  An 
> explosion  then  chain reactions which is explosion after explosion occurs 
> because all the autos are close together in traffic for many miles because 
> they are basically at a stand still    
> 
> Result is something that makes 911 look like a walk in the park AND 
> basically two city's are wiped off the map. Where  as now it would be a 
> minor pile up accident big difference   And naturally the car CO's are then 
> put out of bus by the insurance CO.s  Because they told you your hydrogen 
> auto was safe     
> 
> Another case in point Genisis wants to make Hydrogen then store it in 
> pressurized tanks  what happens if a sever lighten storm happens or a 
> tornado or a hurricane or an earthquake and home systems get ruptured.   It 
> is great system for population control or getting rid of drunk drivers as 
> in the car accident situation 

    My biggest  problem is with the 5 Ft. deep chucks holes and the messy 
body parts covering the landscape for miles. If 
> GM can just solve the chuck hole problem I would be a happy camper.  When I 
> was in Calif. Weaving in and out of traffic at 100 was scary enough all I 
> need is some 5 ft deep chuck hole getting in my way that was caused by some 
> idiots hydrogen auto blowing up.  

    HELLO IS ANYONE THERE?  NO NOT AFTER something of that magnitude happens  
WILL YOU PEOPLE WAKE 
> UP? AND TRY TO SEE PAST YOUR NOSE      THIS IS JUST TO EASY I'M BECOMING 
> BORED AGAIN 
> 
>   There is a solution let our new start up CO. Confidential technologies 
> solve all the stated problems with their new evolutionary clean non 
> pollution creating power conversion and totally safe propulsion situations. 
> 
    

          I had a conversation 2=3 2003  with the chief scientist of the 
Delphi Corp. To rattle his caged a little he was reading one of my mails when 
i called.  WE had showed him the next several steps in evolution beyond fuel 
cells,hybrids, internal combustion and current EV platforms in the fall of 
2001 at his world HQ. Tech. and a ranking city official attended the meetings 
with us. 

  The next several steps are the ones we will be DEV.  He was also instructed 
how to make his now obsolete hydrogen propulsion function for free. They had 
the process backwards because they were using Theory only based thinking to 
look at it. GM  Legal has instructed him not to speak with us. 

But Carl Speck is a visionary and a nice guy. He does not have the GM 
attitude. I asked him point blank is there and question we are not real and 
he said  NO.  FYI information after the meetings he sent me a mail saying he 
did not understand any thing we showed him it is attached after you 
conversation.   Jones Beene  Your conversation below about propulsion is at 
the stone age level as far as  I'm concerned  p hoffman it appears is  out in 
LA LA  land somewhere      Mail from Delphi follows this next  mail  about a 
hydrogen economy   but no body looks at the future  plus they have very 
little knowledge to do so  

Jones Beene wrote:

>For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the 
>"hydrogen economy"

A lot longer than that.

>Recently even the president has gotten on board, which must mean that the 
>US petroleum industry has finally seen the light, and is desirous of 
>getting its size-15-foot firmly in the door...

I do not think so. I think the statements by the oil industry, GM and by 
Bush are all smoke screens. They want to do a little R&D to make the public 
think they are addressing the problem, so they can maintain the present 
absurdly inefficient & polluting technology indefinitely. If they were at 
all serious, they would be producing hundreds of thousands of hybrid 
vehicles.


>First there is the hydrogen "carrier". Can H2, a highly volatile gas . . .

It isn't that volatile, and it is probably safer than gasoline. See: P. 
Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy."

I do not think there is any future for widespread fuel-cell technology. 
There are not enough platinum group metals in the world to support 
fuel-cell automobiles. I do not think there are any alternative materials.

The scarcity of platinum group metals may also make the widespread, small 
scale use of CF impossible.

- Jed
                 I have his address heading in a file  i can send if 
necessary 
     Jack

The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various
technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries & Clearing.  I
have not been able to establish a phone number for her.  I have only been
able to get an address.  It is:

Technologies Inquiries & Clearing
Delphi Technologies, Inc.
Delphi Automotive Systems
PO Box 5
Troy, MI 48099-0005

When we talked about further discussions, I indicated that these people would
expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.  

In our last discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not
understand how it could work.  I still don't, but I wish you your best in
pursuing it

Carl

--part1_ba.376bfe1c.2b7c4540_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>THE HYDROGEN DISASTER OF=20=
THE FUTURE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is a form that will not explode&nbsp; but=
 is not using water also the mail to me at the bottom is from the chief Scie=
ntist of the Delphi/GM corp.&nbsp;&nbsp; Who we an evolutionary new new Co i=
n the planning stages showed. The next steps in evolution beyond probably al=
l&nbsp; you presently known about propulsion.&nbsp; And he understood ZERO&g=
t;<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Auto&nbsp; Propulsion cannot be fuel driven at all or need recharging=
. They same goes for your house.&nbsp;&nbsp; That is the step we have to mak=
e and can. The Technology exists&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WAKE UP time is here ? It=
 is time to totally and forever change the thinking&nbsp; dynamics of a civi=
lization <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IT IS&nbsp; sometime in 2020 and we are=20=
all driving Hydrogen powered autos and thinking we are not polluting with pr=
essurized tanks. Because the auto CO wanted to keep the filling station in t=
he loop for control purposes that emit water vapor which is acidic. </BLOCKQ=
UOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Which is bad enough because it causes acid rain to=20=
intensify to unimaginable levels. Which we were not told?&nbsp; I'm <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">approaching the golden gate bri=
dge from the North in heavy morning traffic in a dense fog and at the same t=
ime my friend is approaching the free bridge in NYC. So as to enter Mid town=
 and he is in heavy fog and traffic also <BR>
<BR>
And there is an accident in both situations up ahead of us and the hydrogen=20=
system in both situations is ruptured plus because of the fog there is a pil=
e up and other systems are ruptured also and the electrical systems. In just=
 one the wreaked auto causes a spark to happen.&nbsp; What happens then?&nbs=
p; An explosion&nbsp; then&nbsp; chain reactions which is explosion after ex=
plosion occurs because all the autos are close together in traffic for many=20=
miles because they are basically at a stand still&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Result is something that makes 911 look like a walk in the park AND basicall=
y two city's are wiped off the map. Where&nbsp; as now it would be a minor p=
ile up accident big difference&nbsp;&nbsp; And naturally the car CO's are th=
en put out of bus by the insurance CO.s&nbsp; Because they told you your hyd=
rogen auto was safe&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Another case in point Genisis wants to make Hydrogen then store it in pressu=
rized tanks&nbsp; what happens if a sever lighten storm happens or a tornado=
 or a hurricane or an earthquake and home systems get ruptured.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
It is great system for population control or getting rid of drunk drivers as=
 in the car accident situation </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My biggest&nbsp; problem is with the 5 Ft. deep chucks ho=
les and the messy body parts covering the landscape for miles. If <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">GM can just solve the chuck hol=
e problem I would be a happy camper.&nbsp; When I was in Calif. Weaving in a=
nd out of traffic at 100 was scary enough all I need is some 5 ft deep chuck=
 hole getting in my way that was caused by some idiots hydrogen auto blowing=
 up.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO IS ANYONE THERE?&nbsp; NO NOT AFTER something of th=
at magnitude happens&nbsp; WILL YOU PEOPLE WAKE <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">UP? AND TRY TO SEE PAST YOUR NO=
SE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THIS IS JUST TO EASY I'M BECOMING BORED AGA=
IN <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; There is a solution let our new start up CO. Confidential technologie=
s solve all the stated problems with their new evolutionary clean non pollut=
ion creating power conversion and totally safe propulsion situations. </BLOC=
KQUOTE><BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I had a conversation=20=
2=3D3 2003&nbsp; with the chief scientist of the Delphi Corp. To rattle his=20=
caged a little he was reading one of my mails when i called.&nbsp; WE had sh=
owed him the next several steps in evolution beyond fuel cells,hybrids, inte=
rnal combustion and current EV platforms in the fall of 2001 at his world HQ=
. Tech. and a ranking city official attended the meetings with us. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; The next several steps are the ones we will be DEV.&nbsp; He was also=
 instructed how to make his now obsolete hydrogen propulsion function for fr=
ee. They had the process backwards because they were using Theory only based=
 thinking to look at it. GM&nbsp; Legal has instructed him not to speak with=
 us. <BR>
<BR>
But Carl Speck is a visionary and a nice guy. He does not have the GM attitu=
de. I asked him point blank is there and question we are not real and he sai=
d&nbsp; NO.&nbsp; FYI information after the meetings he sent me a mail sayin=
g he did not understand any thing we showed him it is attached after you con=
versation.&nbsp;&nbsp; Jones Beene&nbsp; Your conversation below about propu=
lsion is at the stone age level as far as&nbsp; I'm concerned&nbsp; p hoffma=
n it appears is&nbsp; out in LA LA&nbsp; land somewhere&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Mail from Delphi follows this next&nbsp; mail&nbsp; about a hydrog=
en economy&nbsp;&nbsp; but no body looks at the future&nbsp; plus they have=20=
very little knowledge to do so&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Jones Beene wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;For a decade we have been hearing about the imminent approach of the <BR=
>
&gt;"hydrogen economy"<BR>
<BR>
A lot longer than that.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;Recently even the president has gotten on board, which must mean that th=
e <BR>
&gt;US petroleum industry has finally seen the light, and is desirous of <BR=
>
&gt;getting its size-15-foot firmly in the door...<BR>
<BR>
I do not think so. I think the statements by the oil industry, GM and by <BR=
>
Bush are all smoke screens. They want to do a little R&amp;D to make the pub=
lic <BR>
think they are addressing the problem, so they can maintain the present <BR>
absurdly inefficient &amp; polluting technology indefinitely. If they were a=
t <BR>
all serious, they would be producing hundreds of thousands of hybrid vehicle=
s.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt;First there is the hydrogen "carrier". Can H2, a highly volatile gas . .=
 .<BR>
<BR>
It isn't that volatile, and it is probably safer than gasoline. See: P. <BR>
Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy."<BR>
<BR>
I do not think there is any future for widespread fuel-cell technology. <BR>
There are not enough platinum group metals in the world to support <BR>
fuel-cell automobiles. I do not think there are any alternative materials.<B=
R>
<BR>
The scarcity of platinum group metals may also make the widespread, small <B=
R>
scale use of CF impossible.<BR>
<BR>
- Jed<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have his address heading in a file&nbsp; i can send i=
f necessary <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jack<BR>
<BR>
The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various<BR>
technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries &amp; Clearing.=
&nbsp; I<BR>
have not been able to establish a phone number for her.&nbsp; I have only be=
en<BR>
able to get an address.&nbsp; It is:<BR>
<BR>
Technologies Inquiries &amp; Clearing<BR>
Delphi Technologies, Inc.<BR>
Delphi Automotive Systems<BR>
PO Box 5<BR>
Troy, MI 48099-0005<BR>
<BR>
When we talked about further discussions, I indicated that these people woul=
d<BR>
expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In our last discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not<BR>
understand how it could work.&nbsp; I still don't, but I wish you your best=20=
in<BR>
pursuing it<BR>
<BR>
Carl<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_ba.376bfe1c.2b7c4540_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 01:05:00 2003
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:02:49 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
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John Schuner Posted;

>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	Have any of the pro nuclear power advocates added in the cost and
>damage of nuclear or radioactive material that MIGHT enter the environment
>to their figures?
>
>						JH

The late Paul Brown developed a process which will make reactor waste 
non radioactive in just 18 months. It is controlled by Nuclear 
Solutions, www.nucsol.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 05:20:04 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: NASA's Oversight?
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It seems to me that one or more tiles knocked off the wheel well door could allow
incandescent air into the wheel well and create a hot spot on the outer tire, allowing
it to release ~ 12 cubic feet of 340 psi air  (24 cubic feet) into the wheel well (250
cubic feet?) allowing it's pressure
to shoot up to ~ 10 psi, thus literally blowing the door open, or off. Bad news.

http://195.154.239.169/aviation/about/space.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/12/shuttle.tires.ap/index.html

"In internal e-mails released by NASA on Wednesday, one safety engineer, Robert H.
Daugherty, warned that extreme temperatures during a fiery descent could cause the
wheel to fail and the tire to burst inside Columbia's wheel well."

With this early warning, the shuttle could have rendezvoused with/near the Space
Station for inspection and/or repair and  possible crew rescue. The shuttle crew could
remain on board it for at least three weeks.

Fred



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  Fred, you should set your email "respond to:" to a null setting.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: NASA's Oversight?
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:57:34 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
References: <002901c2d359$135ce3c0$b609bf3f computer>



Frederick Sparber wrote:

>With this early warning, the shuttle could have rendezvoused with/near the Space
>Station for inspection and/or repair and  possible crew rescue. The shuttle crew could
>remain on board it for at least three weeks.
>

Reports I have seen say that Shuttle did not have adequate fuel to 
achieve a parallel orbit with the Station.  Also, they did not have the 
Station docking collar on board Shuttle.  AND, they did not have EVA 
suits for all crew members.  Nor did they have any way to maneuver 
outside Shuttle, ie no remote manipulator (arm) nor EVA propulsion units.  

Of course, there's always the Dave Bowman maneuver.

Terry



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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Is this better, Terry?

Fred

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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Is this better, Terry?
>
>Fred
>
>
>  
>


:-)


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:36:57 EST
Subject: This is from a multi millionaire Bus. type that has Sci. knowkedge also. 
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A lesson is contained here skeptics  they appearently did not teach the SCI. 
only types among  you 

> Hi Jack,  After receiving my reply and a long conversation with me and the 
> prime Tech. He totally understands the concept. You SCI. people cannot even 
> understand the concept. Because you need more than SCI. knowledge to do so. 
> You need something called common sense. That is something SCI only types 
> are not know for.  

  SCI> types only think in one realm. They just do not understand business. I 
have never found one that does.  SCI. 
> types do not create companies so they do not understand the process. They 
> work for people that do or are in the EDU. system. Unless they have 
> actually created or invented situations they cannot relate as they cannot 
> to inventive types either. Plus they will not attempt to either. Because 
> their giant counter productive Ego's will not let them 
> 
> I cannot understand exactly what you are saying, so let's start over. I 
> move slowly but once I get it, I really get it.
> I believe you are saying that you have a device which more efficiently uses 
> electricity than devices which are in use right now. 
> 
   YES  DRAMATICALLY 

So it does not 
> actually put out electricity, it uses electricity more efficiently and 
> therefore it does more work with the same amount of provided electricity.Is 
> this correct?    

    YES 
> 
> 
> With the scientific community, there is a group of laws they know and obey. 
> However, they do not know all the laws, and this is where invention can 
> still take place, when someone can use an unknown law or a misunderstood
> law. This is the opportunity. 

    THAT  LAW THEY USE IS TOTALLY OBSOLETE THERE IS ALL NEW LAW  ""PERIOD"" 

I understand you have lots of anger and 
> frustration with the scientific community, 
> 
   NO I HAVE MY FUN BY PLAYING WITH THEIR THEORY ONLY THINKING small closed 
narrow MINDS  
l    
    Let's put that aside for now- as 
> hard as that is to do!  They will figure out how to explain it if we can
> prove it works.  I may be the one you are looking for who can provide 
> thatlink between your invention and the real world.
> 

    REPLY  EVEN NOBLE LEVEL MINDS ARE CLUELESS   bECAUSE NO KNOWN MATH EXISTS 
. THERE IS NEW 
> MATH BUT WE WILL NOT PUB. IT.    THERE IS NO NEED TO IF YOU CAN DEMO AND 
> TOTALLY PROVE THE FIRST NEW THEORY IN A CENTURY   THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE 
> WORLD FROM NOW ON TOM  AND LEAVES SCIENCE IN A TOTAL CATCH 22 

> My situation is NOT that I will fund such promotions in any large way.  I 
> can provide a means by which you can achieve success with this (if it does 
> what you say it does).  In the process, I succeed, too- that's win-win.  My
> intention is to make the world a better place, plain and simple.  I believe 
> that the greatest good comes from honest relationships and hard work.

>       WE HAVE THE SAME GOALS

> I need to understand, in basic terms, what your device does.  You don't have 
> to give me any technical secrets in your reply, we are not at that stage. 
> Walk me through this.
> 
> 1.  Your device is what? a different type of motor or what?

>       THE FIRST THAT WE DEMO AND CAN DO SO AT A CUSTOMERS LOCATION 
> INDEPENDENT FROM US.   IS A MINOR SITUATION TO US. and a obsolete 220 v  to 
> 3 phase Rotating Transformer  BUT IF USED ON A PLANET WIDE BASES WOULD FOR 
> GO ELECTRICAL DEMAND OVER CURRENT DEMAND UNTILL 2080. AS IT IS DEMAND WILL 
> DOUBLE BY 2020  THAT IS A TWO TRILLION SITUATION. That conclusion was 
> reached by MIT's super computer that was pimped for free processing time.  

  THAT MATH IS EASY TO FIGURE  iT CONVERTS CURRENT WITH A NEW PROCESS THAT 
ENABLES YOU TO 
> USE BASICALLY ALL OF IT WITHOUT WASTE . NO PATENTS BECAUSE WE DO NOT NEED 
> THEM BUT WILL HAVE TRADEMARKS  TECH. DOES GET PUB. AND IS THE BASES FOR A 
> CO.  AS COKES PROCESS IS FOR THEIR CO AND HAS NEVER BEEN PUB IN 120 YEARS. 
> plus WORLD CLASS SELF DESTROYING ANTI REVERSE ENG. TECH. IS BUilt  IN   WE 
> wish them luck figuring it out. Their problem is they are not wired to. 

2. Your device is supplied with electricity?  How much, volts and current.

>    The FIRST ONE YES BUT THE NEXT STEP  A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TECH. WILL BE 
> SELF CONTAINED AND YOU JUST HOOK IT TO A GENERATOR  current ONE IS  A 3 HP 
> UNIT WILL POWER UP  10 HP. to 15 Hp.  OF EQ.. BY CONVERTING SINGLE PHASE 
> INTO 3 PHASE  All that matters is what it is drawing and what that draw is 
> producing. 

> If there is a different inrush at start up, that's important, too.

>   YOUR GOING TO HAVE SOME SURGE 

> 3. Your device then performs work which is measured how?  This work is
> greater than conventional products in what way?

>    EASY YOU SEE A  110 V, OR 220 V. IMPUT THEN YOU SEE A 3 PHASE OUTPUT THEN 
> YOU SEE OPERATIONAL EQ. YOU MEASURE THE DRAW AND IT FAR LOWER THAT REQUIRED 
> DRAW OF WHATEVER IT OPERATES.  SIMPLE. The SYSTEM CAN OPERATE A 3 PHASE  
> GEN THAT CONVERTS IT BACK TO SINGLE PHASE.   THEN YOU OPERATE YOUR HOUSE 
> WITH A FRACTION OF THE DRAW YOU WOULD NORMALLY NEED. THEN YOU HAVE A  NEW 
> WORLD. THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO YOURS IN ANYWAY.  

       Please give me a 1-2-3, thanks. If your device does what you say it 
does, 
> then there is always a means to move forward and I can certainly help.
>     CALL ME  WILL SEE    810 618 9234 
> thanks for your email.
> 
> best regards,    -------  SEE HOW EASY IT IS ?   SCI> only types  WHEN YOU 
> ASK the right QUESTIONS AND NOT SPOUT OFF THIS and that before using common 
> sense to look at something. There is were is EDU. appearently was grossly 
> lacking. 

--part1_78.3840deec.2b7d3fc9_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><P ALIGN=3DCENTER><FONT  SIZE=3D2>A lesso=
n is contained here skeptics&nbsp; they appearently did not teach the SCI. o=
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<BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px so=
lid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hi Jack,&nbsp;=20=
After receiving my reply and a long conversation with me and the prime Tech.=
 He totally understands the concept. You SCI. people cannot even understand=20=
the concept. Because you need more than SCI. knowledge to do so. You need so=
mething called common sense. That is something SCI only types are not know f=
or.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; SCI&gt; types only think in one realm. They just do not understand bu=
siness. I have never found one that does.&nbsp; SCI. <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">types do not create companies s=
o they do not understand the process. They work for people that do or are in=
 the EDU. system. Unless they have actually created or invented situations t=
hey cannot relate as they cannot to inventive types either. Plus they will n=
ot attempt to either. Because their giant counter productive Ego's will not=20=
let them <BR>
<BR>
I cannot understand exactly what you are saying, so let's start over. I move=
 slowly but once I get it, I really get it.<BR>
I believe you are saying that you have a device which more efficiently uses=20=
electricity than devices which are in use right now. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; YES&nbsp; DRAMATICALLY <BR>
<BR>
So it does not <BR>
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<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YES <BR>
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<BR>
With the scientific community, there is a group of laws they know and obey.=20=
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l take place, when someone can use an unknown law or a misunderstood<BR>
law. This is the opportunity. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT&nbsp; LAW THEY USE IS TOTALLY OBSOLETE THERE IS ALL=20=
NEW LAW&nbsp; ""PERIOD"" <BR>
<BR>
I understand you have lots of anger and <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">frustration with the scientific=
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</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; NO I HAVE MY FUN BY PLAYING WITH THEIR THEORY ONLY THINKING sma=
ll closed narrow MINDS&nbsp; <BR>
l&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Let's put that aside for now- as <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">hard as that is to do!&nbsp; Th=
ey will figure out how to explain it if we can<BR>
prove it works.&nbsp; I may be the one you are looking for who can provide t=
hatlink between your invention and the real world.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; EVEN NOBLE LEVEL MINDS ARE CLUELESS&nbsp;&nbs=
p; bECAUSE NO KNOWN MATH EXISTS . THERE IS NEW <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
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bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THERE IS NO NEED TO IF YOU CAN DEMO AND TOTALLY PROVE THE F=
IRST NEW THEORY IN A CENTURY&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD FROM=
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<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My situation is NOT that I will=
 fund such promotions in any large way.&nbsp; I can provide a means by which=
 you can achieve success with this (if it does what you say it does).&nbsp;=20=
In the process, I succeed, too- that's win-win.&nbsp; My<BR>
intention is to make the world a better place, plain and simple.&nbsp; I bel=
ieve that the greatest good comes from honest relationships and hard work.</=
BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
WE HAVE THE SAME GOALS</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I need to understand, in basic=20=
terms, what your device does.&nbsp; You don't have to give me any technical=20=
secrets in your reply, we are not at that stage. Walk me through this.<BR>
<BR>
1.&nbsp; Your device is what? a different type of motor or what?</BLOCKQUOTE=
><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
THE FIRST THAT WE DEMO AND CAN DO SO AT A CUSTOMERS LOCATION INDEPENDENT FRO=
M US.&nbsp;&nbsp; IS A MINOR SITUATION TO US. and a obsolete 220 v&nbsp; to=20=
3 phase Rotating Transformer&nbsp; BUT IF USED ON A PLANET WIDE BASES WOULD=20=
FOR GO ELECTRICAL DEMAND OVER CURRENT DEMAND UNTILL 2080. AS IT IS DEMAND WI=
LL DOUBLE BY 2020&nbsp; THAT IS A TWO TRILLION SITUATION. That conclusion wa=
s reached by MIT's super computer that was pimped for free processing time.&=
nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; THAT MATH IS EASY TO FIGURE&nbsp; iT CONVERTS CURRENT WITH A NEW PROC=
ESS THAT ENABLES YOU TO <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">USE BASICALLY ALL OF IT WITHOUT=
 WASTE . NO PATENTS BECAUSE WE DO NOT NEED THEM BUT WILL HAVE TRADEMARKS&nbs=
p; TECH. DOES GET PUB. AND IS THE BASES FOR A CO.&nbsp; AS COKES PROCESS IS=20=
FOR THEIR CO AND HAS NEVER BEEN PUB IN 120 YEARS. plus WORLD CLASS SELF DEST=
ROYING ANTI REVERSE ENG. TECH. IS BUilt&nbsp; IN&nbsp;&nbsp; WE wish them lu=
ck figuring it out. Their problem is they are not wired to. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR=
>
<BR>
2. Your device is supplied with electricity?&nbsp; How much, volts and curre=
nt.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; The FIRST ONE YES=20=
BUT THE NEXT STEP&nbsp; A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TECH. WILL BE SELF CONTAINED AND=
 YOU JUST HOOK IT TO A GENERATOR&nbsp; current ONE IS&nbsp; A 3 HP UNIT WILL=
 POWER UP&nbsp; 10 HP. to 15 Hp.&nbsp; OF EQ.. BY CONVERTING SINGLE PHASE IN=
TO 3 PHASE&nbsp; All that matters is what it is drawing and what that draw i=
s producing. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If there is a different inrush=20=
at start up, that's important, too.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; YOUR GOING TO HAVE SOME=20=
SURGE </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">3. Your device then performs wo=
rk which is measured how?&nbsp; This work is<BR>
greater than conventional products in what way?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; EASY YOU SEE A&nbs=
p; 110 V, OR 220 V. IMPUT THEN YOU SEE A 3 PHASE OUTPUT THEN YOU SEE OPERATI=
ONAL EQ. YOU MEASURE THE DRAW AND IT FAR LOWER THAT REQUIRED DRAW OF WHATEVE=
R IT OPERATES.&nbsp; SIMPLE. The SYSTEM CAN OPERATE A 3 PHASE&nbsp; GEN THAT=
 CONVERTS IT BACK TO SINGLE PHASE.&nbsp;&nbsp; THEN YOU OPERATE YOUR HOUSE W=
ITH A FRACTION OF THE DRAW YOU WOULD NORMALLY NEED. THEN YOU HAVE A&nbsp; NE=
W WORLD. THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO YOURS IN ANYWAY.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please give me a 1-2-3, thanks. If your=
 device does what you say it does, <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">then there is always a means to=
 move forward and I can certainly help.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CALL ME&nbsp; WILL SEE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 810 618 9234 <BR=
>
thanks for your email.<BR>
<BR>
best regards,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -------&nbsp; SEE HOW EASY IT IS ?&nbsp;&nbs=
p; SCI&gt; only types&nbsp; WHEN YOU ASK the right QUESTIONS AND NOT SPOUT O=
FF THIS and that before using common sense to look at something. There is we=
re is EDU. appearently was grossly lacking. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</P></P></FONT></HTML>
--part1_78.3840deec.2b7d3fc9_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 10:42:14 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Missed opportunities
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:57:17 -0500
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It is true, that Paul's technology works as claimed.

The problem...

Anyone know where you can pick up a gigawatt gamma ray laser???

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:03 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities


John Schuner Posted;

>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	Have any of the pro nuclear power advocates added in the cost and
>damage of nuclear or radioactive material that MIGHT enter the environment
>to their figures?
>
>						JH

The late Paul Brown developed a process which will make reactor waste 
non radioactive in just 18 months. It is controlled by Nuclear 
Solutions, www.nucsol.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 10:50:01 2003
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:46:47 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Missed opportunities
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>The problem...
>
>Anyone know where you can pick up a gigawatt gamma ray laser???

Uh . . . Ebay?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 11:57:26 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:53:03 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
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Water can be converted into hydrogen by reverse electrolysis and solar as 
hydrogen is needed to power a fuel cell by electrolysis, so that a tank of 
water can be placed in a car, instead of hydrogen, and used to create small 
amounts of hydrogen as needed to power a fuel cell, to avoid dangerous 
hydrogen tanks.  The process of converting water to hydrogen and then 
hydrogen to energy is shown at the following web site:  
http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html

The Schatz Solar Hydrogen Project

 

 The Schatz solar hydrogen project is a full-time, automated standalone 
energy system designed to power the air compressor that aerates the aquarium 
at Humboldt State University's Telonicher Marine lab in Trinidad, California. 
It uses energy from the sun to power the compressor and produce hydrogen that 
is used to power the compressor when the sun is not available. The end result 
is that the fish enjoy solar powered air bubbles twenty four hours a day.How 
it works

This is how the system works: sunlight hits the photovoltaic panels, which 
convert solar energy into electricity. This electricity is used in two ways: 
it powers the air compressor directly, and when more energy is available than 
the compressor needs, the eccess is used to power an electrolyzer. In the 
electrolyzer the electricity splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. The 
oxygen gas is vented to the atmosphere and the hydrogen gas is stored in 
tanks behind the lab.When the photovoltaic panels do not recieve enough 
sunlight to power the compressor (either at night or when the weather is 
bad), the system automatically shifts to fuel cell operation. The fuel cell 
directly converts chemical energy into electricity by combining the stored 
hydrogen with oxygen from the air--basically the same as the electrolyzer, 
but in reverse. This is a shortcut from the usual way of obtaining 
electricity from a fuel, which involves burning the fuel, using the heat to 
boil water, using the steam to turn a turbine, and using the turbine to turn 
a generator, which produces electricity.System Components


A 7 kW (actual max output) photovoltaic array (192 M75 Siemens modules) 
A 7 kW electrolyzer producing 20 standard liters of hydrogen per minute (max) 

Three 500 gallon tanks for hydrogen storage at 100 psi 
A 1.5 kW proton exchange membrane fuel cell 
A computer control system, preforming automated control and monitoring 
Current Status

The system has been in operation since 1994. A complete retrofit of the 
computer control systems took place in 2001-2002. The three computers 
originally used for control and monitoring were replaced by a single 
integrated system that also allows visitors to get a better look at what the 
system is doing. The original fuel cell is also in the process of being 
replaced by a more advanced, newly built model.


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>









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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><P ALIGN=3DCENTER><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Water can be converted into hydroge=
n by reverse electrolysis and solar as hydrogen is needed to power a fuel ce=
ll by electrolysis, so that a tank of water can be placed in a car, instead=20=
of hydrogen, and used to create small amounts of hydrogen as needed to power=
 a fuel cell, to avoid dangerous hydrogen tanks.&nbsp; The process of conver=
ting water to hydrogen and then hydrogen to energy is shown at the following=
 web site:&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D6 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">http://www.=
humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>The Schatz Solar Hydrogen=
 Project<BR>
<BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><IMG  SRC=3D"http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/gifs/bar.gif" WID=
TH=3D"600" HEIGHT=3D"5" BORDER=3D"0"></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></B> <BR>
<BR>
<IMG  SRC=3D"http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/gifs/skyview.jpg" WIDTH=3D"375" H=
EIGHT=3D"250" BORDER=3D"0"> The Schatz solar hydrogen project is a full-time=
, automated standalone energy system designed to power the air compressor th=
at aerates the aquarium at Humboldt State University's Telonicher Marine lab=
 in Trinidad, California. It uses energy from the sun to power the compresso=
r and produce hydrogen that is used to power the compressor when the sun is=20=
not available. The end result is that the fish enjoy solar powered air bubbl=
es twenty four hours a day.How it works<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">This is how the system works=
: sunlight hits the photovoltaic panels, which convert solar energy into ele=
ctricity. This electricity is used in two ways: it powers the air compressor=
 directly, and when more energy is available than the compressor needs, the=20=
eccess is used to power an electrolyzer. In the electrolyzer the electricity=
 splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen gas is vented to the atmo=
sphere and the hydrogen gas is stored in tanks behind the lab.When the photo=
voltaic panels do not recieve enough sunlight to power the compressor (eithe=
r at night or when the weather is bad), the system automatically shifts to f=
uel cell operation. The fuel cell directly converts chemical energy into ele=
ctricity by combining the stored hydrogen with oxygen from the air--basicall=
y the same as the electrolyzer, but in reverse. This is a shortcut from the=20=
usual way of obtaining electricity from a fuel, which involves burning the f=
uel, using the heat to boil water, using the steam to turn a turbine, and us=
ing the turbine to turn a generator, which produces electricity.System Compo=
nents<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A 7 kW (actual max output) photovoltaic array (192 M75 Siemens modules) <BR>
A 7 kW electrolyzer producing 20 standard liters of hydrogen per minute (max=
) <BR>
Three 500 gallon tanks for hydrogen storage at 100 psi <BR>
A 1.5 kW proton exchange membrane fuel cell <BR>
A computer control system, preforming automated control and monitoring Curre=
nt Status<BR>
<BR>
The system has been in operation since 1994. A complete retrofit of the comp=
uter control systems took place in 2001-2002. The three computers originally=
 used for control and monitoring were replaced by a single integrated system=
 that also allows visitors to get a better look at what the system is doing.=
 The original fuel cell is also in the process of being replaced by a more a=
dvanced, newly built model.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</P></P></FONT></HTML>
--part1_a8.1853f101.2b7d519f_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 12:19:41 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
Cc: ConexTom aol.com
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Dear ConexTom aol.com:

Please refrain from posting HTML documents on Vortex. It upsets some 
people's mail readers. If you would like to cite a document, please post 
the URL only.

You wrote:

>Water can be converted into hydrogen by reverse electrolysis and solar as 
>hydrogen is needed to power a fuel cell by electrolysis, so that a tank of 
>water can be placed in a car, instead of hydrogen, and used to create 
>small amounts of hydrogen as needed to power a fuel cell, to avoid 
>dangerous hydrogen tanks. . . .

If you could gather enough solar energy to do this, you could dispense with 
the hydrogen altogether, and power the car with solar generated electricity 
instead. The amount of sunlight that reaches the surface of an automobile 
is nowhere near enough to power an ordinary automobile, even if energy is 
stored up in batteries while the car is parked. An extremely lightweight 
vehicle with a huge collection surface can be powered by this method. Look 
up "solar powered car" on Google for details.

I suggest you review a basic textbook on energy . . . and I was going to 
suggest a title, but I cannot think of one offhand. Maybe there is 
something by Asimov?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 12:40:27 2003
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Subject: Hey, this business of spouting gibberish looks like a lot of fun. But here's how the pro's do it.
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:54:10 -0500
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(Courtesy F.E.D. Esq.)

Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment policy made possible
solely by Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls. Especially
lifelong constant threshold brainwash radio. Quiet and motionless, I can
slightly hear it. Repeatedly this has saved my life on the streets.

Four billion wordwide population, all living, have a Computer God
Containment Policy brain bank brain, a real brain in the brain bank
cities on the far side of the moon we never see. Primarily, based on
your lifelong Frankenstein Radio Controls, especially your Eyesight TV,
sight and sound recorded by your brain, your moon brain of the Computer
God activates your Frankenstein threshold brainwash radio lifelong,
inculcating conformist propaganda, even frightening you and mixing you
up and the usual, "Don't worry about it." For your setbacks, mistakes,
even when you receive deadly injuries. This is the Worldwide Computer
God Secret Containment Policy.

Worldwide, as a Frankenstein slave, usually at night, you go to nearby
hospital or camouflaged miniature hospital van trucks, you strip naked,
lay on the operating table, which slides into the sealed Computer God
robot operating cabinet. Intravenous tubes are connected. The slimy
vicious -bleep- doctor simply pushes the starting button, based upon your
Computer God brain on the moon which records progress of your systematic
butchery. Your butchery is continued exactly, systematically. The
Computer God operating cabinet has many robot arms with electrical and
laser beam knife robot arms with fly eye TV cameras watching your whole
body. Every part of you is monitored, even from your Frankenstein
controls. Synthetic blood, synthetic instant-sealing flesh and skin,
even synthetic electrical heartbeat to keep you alive are some of the
unbelievable Computer God instant plastic surgery secrets. You are the
highest, most intelligent electrical machine in the Universe.

Inevitability of gradualness. Usually, in a few years, you are made
stringbean thin or grotesquely deformed, crippled and ugly, or even made
over one foot shorter or one foot taller, as the Computer God sees fit.
Virtually all of the important instant plastic surgery is done to you
inside the Computer God sealed robot operating cabinet. Even
unbelievable, impossible plastic surgery operations, all impossible even
for dozens of vicious kosher bosher doctors working around the clock for
weeks. The Computer God sealed robot operating cabinet can perform all
of the above impossible plastic surgery operations overnight, even
dwarfting you over a foot, or increasing your height by two feet. This
is possible because Computer God robot operating cabinet imitates your
microminiature electrical current intelligence system in your body. It
even duplicates the microminiature electric currents that soften your
broken bones to create mending of them and then create stress either
compressing the bones thereby shortening them or stress to make the
bones grow longer.

Spring, 1984, Mr. Dec, lifelong would-be doctor and printer. Insight to
the Worldwide Computer God stratified closed society, perfected by
hospital birth making possible lifelong Frankenstein controls and
lifelong hampering human defects containment policy. Hospital birth
lifelong gifts example, deformed, crippled, retarded, pox, hives, warts,
moles, blindness, deafness, poor vision, etc. Kosher bosher containment
policy work good doctors secret health example cataract, rheumatism,
weak heart, damaged vision, epilepsy, fainting spells, paralysis, loss
of memory, trembling, gout, diabetes, many diseases.

The worldwide unbelievable lowest deadly gangster kosher bosher vicious
medical profession worldwide unbelievable instant plastic surgery
butchery of the body and brain, especially the face. Wipe on hormones
and laser beam surgery causing instant ugly deep wrinkles, scars, age
spots, arthritis, freckles, blemishes, pimples, red, brown, black or
even sick white face and body. Worldwide dark negroidic colored male sex
organs. The brainwash inferior female brain from overall plan intermarry
with -bleep-. Total graying and balding, even hairy body and furry body,
mustached, bearded women, even wipe-on synthetic hormones causing
cancerous growth. Bloating, swelling, deformed, big pickle nose,
bulldog, hanging cheeks and jowls. From teen-age gradual wipe-on
yellowing, frowning and blackening of teeth, and instant grinding and
acids leaving hollow brown stumps so vocal chords are made raspy, aged,
creating a wrinkled, ugly gargoylic clown booze face, worldwide
population by age 70. Deformed, crippled, weak and brain damaged,
senile. Lingering for inevitability of gradualness extermination. For
your only hope for a future, do you know one word of pray for me,
Francis E. Dec?

Computer God computerized brain thinking sealed robot operating arm
surgery cabinet machine removal of most of the frontal command lobe of
the brain, gradually, during lifetime and overnight in all insane
asylums after Computer God kosher bosher one month probation period
creating helpless, hopeless Computer God Frankenstein Earphone Radio
parroting puppet brainless slaves, resulting in millions of hopeless
helpless homeless derelicts in all Jerusalem, U.S.A. cities and Soviet
slave work camps. Not only the hangman rope deadly gangster parroting
puppet scum-on-top know this top medical secret, even worse, deadly
gangster disease from deaf Ronnie Reagan to U.S.S.R. Gorbachev know
this oy vay Computer God Containment Policy top secret. Eventual brain
lobotomization of the entire world population for the Worldwide Deadly
Gangster Communist Computer God overall plan, an ideal worldwide
population of light-skinned, low hopeless and helpless mulattos, the
communist black wave of the future.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 12:53:30 2003
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:49:43 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: sbishopa sfu.ca
Subject: Re: Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points 1-A
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	Dear Jack,

	To begin, very briefly, I have only a very few comments, questions
and observations:

	A)	I am an applied sciences type primarily and admit I am not
a mathematician.

	Please do Not "put me in a box"  .... or make a sweping
generalization or generalizations about who I am and what I do.

	Applied science is the "make it go"...Whatever the "IT" may be.
	Toss your idea of myself and these questions being book, mathand
theory oriented.

	This is "hardball, nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders" work...
not idea-theory.

	OK?   Can you please grant me this much respect?

	B)	May I be permitted to communicate with "the tech"?  
			Possibly this may be one on one.

	First technical question:

	

	C)	What current is measured at the 12/2 between the circuit
breaker and the converter when the device, system and load is in
operation?


	D)	In general a a standard commercial circuit breaker in USA
is designed to withstand 87.5 percents of the rated load continuously.
	But this does not let us know the current in operation.  It may
let us know the current probably does not exceed some figure.


					With respect,

							JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 12:56:31 2003
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:53:17 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Sci. Am. article on decommissioning nuclear plants
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The March 2003 issue of Sci. Am. has an interesting article about 
decommissioning, on p. 60. In Jan. 2002 the estimated cost for 
decommissioning was $635 million, but under that plan the fuel rods will be 
left on site in a "temporary" structure, so the final cost will be higher.

It does not say how many MW this plant was. Elsewhere, I find it was 860 
MWe. But this site also claimed it was closed the same year it opened, so 
the numbers are suspect:

http://www.nukeworker.com/nuke_facilities/North_America/usa/nrc/region1/main_yankee/index.shtml

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 13:59:11 2003
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Message-ID: <20030213215536.20710.qmail web40405.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:55:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Ok...  So  you need a 7KW arrey for a constant 1.5KW output...
Given aobut 30% solar exposure time for sothern California that is an
energy yeald of...   64%

Admirable adding all of that extra tech to loose a percentage point.

I think I will keep my batteries.

--- ConexTom aol.com wrote:
> Water can be converted into hydrogen by reverse electrolysis and solar
> as 
> hydrogen is needed to power a fuel cell by electrolysis, so that a tank
> of 
> water can be placed in a car, instead of hydrogen, and used to create
> small 
> amounts of hydrogen as needed to power a fuel cell, to avoid dangerous 
> hydrogen tanks.  The process of converting water to hydrogen and then 
> hydrogen to energy is shown at the following web site:  
> http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html
> 
> The Schatz Solar Hydrogen Project
> 
>  
> 
>  The Schatz solar hydrogen project is a full-time, automated standalone
> 
> energy system designed to power the air compressor that aerates the
> aquarium 
> at Humboldt State University's Telonicher Marine lab in Trinidad,
> California. 
> It uses energy from the sun to power the compressor and produce
> hydrogen that 
> is used to power the compressor when the sun is not available. The end
> result 
> is that the fish enjoy solar powered air bubbles twenty four hours a
> day.How 
> it works
> 
> This is how the system works: sunlight hits the photovoltaic panels,
> which 
> convert solar energy into electricity. This electricity is used in two
> ways: 
> it powers the air compressor directly, and when more energy is
> available than 
> the compressor needs, the eccess is used to power an electrolyzer. In
> the 
> electrolyzer the electricity splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. The
> 
> oxygen gas is vented to the atmosphere and the hydrogen gas is stored
> in 
> tanks behind the lab.When the photovoltaic panels do not recieve enough
> 
> sunlight to power the compressor (either at night or when the weather
> is 
> bad), the system automatically shifts to fuel cell operation. The fuel
> cell 
> directly converts chemical energy into electricity by combining the
> stored 
> hydrogen with oxygen from the air--basically the same as the
> electrolyzer, 
> but in reverse. This is a shortcut from the usual way of obtaining 
> electricity from a fuel, which involves burning the fuel, using the
> heat to 
> boil water, using the steam to turn a turbine, and using the turbine to
> turn 
> a generator, which produces electricity.System Components
> 
> 
> A 7 kW (actual max output) photovoltaic array (192 M75 Siemens modules)
> 
> A 7 kW electrolyzer producing 20 standard liters of hydrogen per minute
> (max) 
> 
> Three 500 gallon tanks for hydrogen storage at 100 psi 
> A 1.5 kW proton exchange membrane fuel cell 
> A computer control system, preforming automated control and monitoring 
> Current Status
> 
> The system has been in operation since 1994. A complete retrofit of the
> 
> computer control systems took place in 2001-2002. The three computers 
> originally used for control and monitoring were replaced by a single 
> integrated system that also allows visitors to get a better look at
> what the 
> system is doing. The original fuel cell is also in the process of being
> 
> replaced by a more advanced, newly built model.
> 
> 
> Baron Von Volsung, <A
> HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
> Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A
> HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 14:26:26 2003
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:23:38 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hey, this business of spouting gibberish looks like a lot
  of fun. But here's how the pro's do it.
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Keith Nagel writes:

>Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment policy made possible 
>solely by Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls. Especially 
>lifelong constant threshold brainwash radio. . . .

Apparently someone has hacked Microsoft's top secret business plans.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 14:57:49 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
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            Solar is not feasible and please do not waste your time looking 
at text books about energy. They will soon contain  totally obsolete 
knowledge. Because it is theory based not what it should be, which is 
invention based. But do as you wish. 

  Using water and converting on board as Tom suggests is to hairy of a 
process for auto transportation. Plus if there is water vapor being emitted 
your still are going to cause acid rain effects. That are totally beyond 
sciences current base of understanding. And the environmental damage would be 
far worse than internal combustion pollution. 

 I have pounded that fact into the auto companies to the point, they would 
probably  like to burn me at the stake. After a late Tech. DEV. I was 
associated with,  instructed the Chief scientist Of the Delphi/GM Corp. How 
to make their now totally obsolete hydrogen process function for free, in the 
fall of 2001. Along with the next steps in evolution beyond all their current 
propulsion knowledge.  At their world HQ. tech. Center. Included in this is 
reply is Delphi's chief scientist, Fords Global Technologies people, and 
Toyota's General legal council here in the US. 

They need to wake up. They do not have clue one what they are playing with 
concerning hydrogen.  Because The basically self taught genius Eng.'s that 
built their companies are gone. And 95%of what they have now are total inept 
jokes. Because of our totally piss poor backwards theory based EDU. system. 

The auto CO's excelled in the 50's and 60's because of the GI Bill after the 
war. When EX basically self taught ENG. type Farm boys did not go back to the 
farm after the war. They went to school instead. And did not swallow all the 
theory as they do now. . Because of their previous hands on knowledge    By 
the 80's the auto CO's engineering was a total joke and has been since 
Because of the theory only based teachings.  

 Phil Ford appears to have the right idea because he is conducting himself as 
Henry the first did and he had the correct idea also. Toyota has the best 
Eng.'s on the planet and have spent large dollars on R&D. And because they 
have they lead the pact. At one time 75% of the auto's on this planet were 
Ford's and they controlled 90% of the market. Now they have 14%. Someone 
committed serious blunders to cause that to happen. 

GM in the 50's had 60%.now they are in the 20's again serious arrogant 
engineering and management blunders. Plus they basically created LA's current 
traffic problems by causing there public transportation system to be 
curtailed dramatically in the 50's.  Both of them wised up to some extent and 
copied the Germans then the Japanese engineering. GM and Ford have far to 
many layers of  management and are micro managed which is totally counter 
productive.  Korea has the correct idea and in time should time have Japan's 
lunch.     

  I will say DR. Carl Speck even though I ride him hard sometimes is a world 
class visionary. But he does not run the CO. He only works for it. I asked 
Carl point blank in a conversation last week is there any question we were not
 real and he said no there isn't. I care less if you believe that or not.   


Dear ConexTom aol.com:

Please refrain from posting HTML documents on Vortex. It upsets some 
people's mail readers. If you would like to cite a document, please post 
the URL only.

You wrote:

>Water can be converted into hydrogen by reverse electrolysis and solar as 
>hydrogen is needed to power a fuel cell by electrolysis, so that a tank of 
>water can be placed in a car, instead of hydrogen, and used to create 
>small amounts of hydrogen as needed to power a fuel cell, to avoid 
>dangerous hydrogen tanks. . . .

If you could gather enough solar energy to do this, you could dispense with 
the hydrogen altogether, and power the car with solar generated electricity 
instead. The amount of sunlight that reaches the surface of an automobile 
is nowhere near enough to power an ordinary automobile, even if energy is 
stored up in batteries while the car is parked. An extremely lightweight 
vehicle with a huge collection surface can be powered by this method. Look 
up "solar powered car" on Google for details.

I suggest you review a basic textbook on energy . . . and I was going to 
suggest a title, but I cannot think of one offhand. Maybe there is 
something by Asimov?

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 15:58:07 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Missed opportunities
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:13:00 -0500
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Jed.

You're our resident nipponophile, I remember reading somewhere that
the Japanese have such a device, although I'm not sure what
the power capability is. A quick search of the web
turned up not much of interest. Maybe there is something
in Japanese out there...

What little I have found has been weapons related, as is
so very often the case for such things. I suspect that
this problem kept Paul from rolling out the technology.
Had he lived longer, he may well have solved the problem.
My limited experience with him ( meeting him at a conference
and some email ) showed him to be a serious and credible
researcher. He was the first person to my knowledge to
publicly reveal the probable functioning of the
Moray Device, as an atomic battery. His own work
on atomic batteries was very interesting, at the
time of the conference he was proposing a commercial
product to power smart cards, implanted medical
devices, and the like.

By the way, what a pointless death. It amazes me that
driving a car is something people are willing to risk
their lives doing. Paul certainly had something to offer
the world, now it's unlikely we'll see this technology
brought to fruition. It's sad, and a very appropriate
addition to the "missed opportunities" thread.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 1:47 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Missed opportunities


Keith Nagel wrote:

>The problem...
>
>Anyone know where you can pick up a gigawatt gamma ray laser???

Uh . . . Ebay?

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 17:00:22 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:57:31 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:57:17 -0500:
Hi,

>It is true, that Paul's technology works as claimed.
>
>The problem...
>
>Anyone know where you can pick up a gigawatt gamma ray laser???
>From memory, Paul didn't claim to need a GW to do the job, just a few MW.
Second, there are three patents for gamma-ray lasers (5887008,5617443,4939742).
Third, from memory the gammas don't need to be coherent, i.e. you don't really need a laser, just a sufficient source of gammas/xrays, so a really powerful xray machine might do the job (as I believe was Paul's intent).
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 17:00:36 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <178.16c61e53.2b7d98f7 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:57:27 EST
Subject: Re: Please permit us all to examine  Valid Points 1-A
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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               Call me first 810 618 9234  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 17:19:32 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:16:27 EST
Subject: I called you Dan.Sorry I do not Remember Why not call back if I did  ? 
To: alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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            Jack Carey 810 618 9234  If you do not get it You can talk to the 
Tech. First you will be given an entire new concept concerning electricity.  
That  basically no Eng. With Formal training only on this planet understands 
at all.    Do you want to see if you can grasp the concept?  Then first 
forget all you were taught about elecricity. Plus throw your books away.   
You will  have to totally start over  because the new concept replaces all 
you know about electricity. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 17:28:22 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Missed opportunities
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:44:24 -0500
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Hi Robin.

I agree on point 1 in principle, the power requirements
would depend on the quantity of material to be processed
which I THINK ( not sure ) got up to the GW level for
real industrial application. It could well be lower. One
of the benefits of the graser was reduced power requirements...

Point 2, I frankly haven't bothered to look at the
patent databases. I should, seeings as how this is
one of my software products www.ipdiscover.com (grin).
I was hoping for some information on what's currently
in the field, though.

Point 3, sounds wrong. I'm pretty sure that the gamma
has to be in a narrow range of frequencies to hit
the resonance, hence the graser requirement.

Sure, you could beam the waste with a broad range of gammas,
but that would create a lot more heartburn in terms of
secondary products. You don't want to create MORE waste.
There's also the efficiency consideration,
you want to avoid using massive amounts of power to
get rid of the waste.

This stuff is outside my range of personal experience,
so I'll leave it to the nuclear physics heads to discuss.
How about it Fred?

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 7:58 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Missed opportunities


In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:57:17 -0500:
Hi,

>It is true, that Paul's technology works as claimed.
>
>The problem...
>
>Anyone know where you can pick up a gigawatt gamma ray laser???
>From memory, Paul didn't claim to need a GW to do the job, just a few MW.
Second, there are three patents for gamma-ray lasers
(5887008,5617443,4939742).
Third, from memory the gammas don't need to be coherent, i.e. you don't
really need a laser, just a sufficient source of gammas/xrays, so a really
powerful xray machine might do the job (as I believe was Paul's intent).
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 17:54:52 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <6b.9e9a45d.2b7da600 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:53:04 EST
Subject: Hydrogen Econ.  Please forget the battery's solar and wind to 
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         I stopped at Humboldt and UC Davis  in June  on a three week west 
coast trip  I"m sorry  all this Battery's, Solar, Wind,  Hydrogen, internal 
combustion   IT IS ALL OBSOLETE  Electricity totally changes first and 
becomes 99% EFF which in OU thinking which is a giant misnomer  is 900%   

   Now we are talking about something  ??  ALL you have to do is as we did 
figure out a way to make the current wasted aspects all ready contained in 
the delivery process.  Conduct the vast majority of the work instead of the 
current aspects that do the vast majority.  That is called a totally opposite 
world. Who cares what it is called? As long as your bill drops 75%  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 18:25:35 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <128.22e4dc6e.2b7dacf0 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:22:40 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 3:16:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> I suggest you review a basic textbook on energy . . . and I was going to 
> suggest a title, but I cannot think of one offhand. Maybe there is 
> something by Asimov?

Thank you for the recommendation.  I have read Asimov's basic physic's books, 
and Foundation trilogy, and he is a great writer, who simplifies complex 
ideas, so that they are easy to understand.  I will look for his books in the 
book store to see if he has any books on energy technologies.   We could use 
a few new science fiction writers these day as good as Asimov was. 

I got the impression, that the oceans or water and wind power hold the best 
hope for new long term energy developments.  Even though solar power may not 
work well with cars, it may be possible to use some other energy source other 
than solar to transfer the hydrogen from the water, such as a battery, second 
fuel cell, and sonobubble cold fusion.  Most cars lose their energy when they 
start and stop, so that energy is conserved when the car is running, if the 
energy in the car is placed in a battery, while running, and while stopping.  
 By combining efficient batteries that store the energy while the car is 
running and stopping, with fuel cells, and with a water to hydrogen converter 
there may be a way to get a car to run off of pure water, and fuel cells 
alone, though this may encourage companies to start charging for water.  

I gave up the idea of promoting magnetic overunity devices, since the 
magnetic energies on Earth may be limited or variable due to the solar cycles 
that may affect Earth's magnetic spheres.   Nuclear energy still seems to 
expensive, controversial and dangerous, so that I am focusing on hydrogen, 
ocean, solar, and wind power technologies.    Cold fusion or sonufusion 
fusion, may not be declassified, whereas oceans, solar, and wind power is 
already available.  Some group may only need to get a few billion dollars 
together to start several thousand seed wind, ocean, and solar energy plants 
and pools in cities throughout in the USA, to get these technologies going so 
that they may be able to handle the energy needs in the future. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/13/2003 3:16:23 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I suggest you review a basic te=
xtbook on energy . . . and I was going to <BR>
suggest a title, but I cannot think of one offhand. Maybe there is <BR>
something by Asimov?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the recommendation.&nbsp; I have read Asimov's basic physic's=20=
books, and Foundation trilogy, and he is a great writer, who simplifies comp=
lex ideas, so that they are easy to understand.&nbsp; I will look for his bo=
oks in the book store to see if he has any books on energy technologies.&nbs=
p;&nbsp; We could use a few new science fiction writers these day as good as=
 Asimov was. <BR>
<BR>
I got the impression, that the oceans or water and wind power hold the best=20=
hope for new long term energy developments.&nbsp; Even though solar power ma=
y not work well with cars, it may be possible to use some other energy sourc=
e other than solar to transfer the hydrogen from the water, such as a batter=
y, second fuel cell, and sonobubble cold fusion.&nbsp; Most cars lose their=20=
energy when they start and stop, so that energy is conserved when the car is=
 running, if the energy in the car is placed in a battery, while running, an=
d while stopping.&nbsp;&nbsp; By combining efficient batteries that store th=
e energy while the car is running and stopping, with fuel cells, and with a=20=
water to hydrogen converter there may be a way to get a car to run off of pu=
re water, and fuel cells alone, though this may encourage companies to start=
 charging for water.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I gave up the idea of promoting magnetic overunity devices, since the magnet=
ic energies on Earth may be limited or variable due to the solar cycles that=
 may affect Earth's magnetic spheres.&nbsp;&nbsp; Nuclear energy still seems=
 to expensive, controversial and dangerous, so that I am focusing on hydroge=
n, ocean, solar, and wind power technologies.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cold fusion=20=
or sonufusion fusion, may not be declassified, whereas oceans, solar, and wi=
nd power is already available.&nbsp; Some group may only need to get a few b=
illion dollars together to start several thousand seed wind, ocean, and sola=
r energy plants and pools in cities throughout in the USA, to get these tech=
nologies going so that they may be able to handle the energy needs in the fu=
ture. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 18:46:31 2003
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Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:42:53 -0800
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <fb.37f13cc0.2b7db17d aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:42:05 EST
Subject:   That is known knowledge we have went beyond know knowledge
To: alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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      SIR  In regard to your  statement below about  HyOx.   That is totally 
obsolete to us and since it is,  along with the other  known propulsion 
situations. Except an evolutionary advanced science fiction level  self 
contained,   EV theoretical platform. That does not require battery''s that 
we see becoming operational this year and a more advanced exotic futuristic. 
Inter active field driven situation. That the DOW  Corning saw operational in 
1990 that requires refinement at a cost of 20 million and three to 5  years.  


Is why Delphi and GM has added 1000 in the box thinking Eng. to work on 
alternative projects,  after our meetings with them/.  Because of their not 
invented here syndrome Which makes absolute  total  ZERO sense. Along with  
As I and a Non ENG. Vice President of Kettering Univ. Formally General Motors 
Institute  Agreed on.  It was basically self taught ENG. that built the CO in 
the first place. In the box Eng.. do not know how to think in an alternative 
sense they were never taught that mode of thinking. They were only taught how 
to think in the BOX       Welcome to the 23 Rd century. 


   your mail SIR     I understand your point about the safety of solid state 
hydrogen storage but I'm afraid I have a reason to want to explore the more 
dangerous compressed gas and liquid storage of hydrogen.  That reason comes 
in the form of my interest in the HyOx engine.  The HyOx engine has 
tremendous potential advantages in power, efficiency, pollution and noise 
over naturally aspirated engines but compressed gas or cryogenic storage is 
needed to realize those advantages.

HyOx engines have a bad knock problem when hydrogen and oxygen enter the 
engine at ambient temperatures.  One very good way to overcome this knock 
problem is to get the hydrogen and oxygen entering the engine very cold.  A 
very simple way to do this is to take advantage of the natural cooling effect 
of expanding compressed gases or the temperatures of cryogenic fluids.

I realize that compressed gas and cryogenic storage systems impose additional 
risk onto the hydrogen vehicle.  But I believe the performance advantages of 
the HyOx engine are going to be worth the risk.  And like we have learned to 
control the volatile potential of gas tanks, we will learn to control the 
volatile potential of compressed gas and cryogenic storage of hydrogen and 
oxygen.

Dan


   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 18:55:24 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <14.a0974a7.2b7db3eb aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:52:27 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
To: JCarey9622 aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 5:52:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622 
writes:

> Solar is not feasible

Thank you for your helpful comments and criticism. What about solar energy 
amplified with laser or pure photonic light transistor circuits made of dark 
and white phosphorescent technologies, crystal sound energy amplifiers, fiber 
optics, and Quantum electronic circuits, to increase the efficiency and 
intensity of solar technologies and pure solar fiber optic circuits which do 
not need to use any electromagnetic technologies but only pure photonic 
technologies?

I checked out your CO web page on magnetic overunity devices.  I gave up the 
development of a magnetic overunity device similar to yours, due to the 
limits and variable fluctuations of the amounts of magnetic energy on Earth.

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/13/2003 5:52:51 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Solar is not feasible</BLOCKQUO=
TE></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Thank you for your helpful comments and criticism. What about solar energy a=
mplified with laser or pure photonic light transistor circuits made of dark=20=
and white phosphorescent technologies, crystal sound energy amplifiers, fibe=
r optics, and Quantum electronic circuits, to increase the efficiency and in=
tensity of solar technologies and pure solar fiber optic circuits which do n=
ot need to use any electromagnetic technologies but only pure photonic techn=
ologies?<BR>
<BR>
I checked out your CO web page on magnetic overunity devices.&nbsp; I gave u=
p the development of a magnetic overunity device similar to yours, due to th=
e limits and variable fluctuations of the amounts of magnetic energy on Eart=
h.<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 19:12:15 2003
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Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:08:34 -0800
From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <1ed.1dbfb90.2b7db78a aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:07:54 EST
Subject: Re: Hey, this business of spouting gibberish looks like a lot of fun. But her...
To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 3:40:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:

> Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment policy made possible
> solely by Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls

Hopefully this will end soon.  I filed a case in US Federal Court, Grand 
Rapids, MI, Case No: 1-02-CV-782 , to be ruled on in March, which is posted 
at <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\">http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html</A> which may encourage the US government to defend US citizens and businesses from terrorist scalar wave wars and international espionage, especially against US companies developing new technologies such as energy technologies.&nbsp; There are important supplements with evidence to the case also posted at <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com">www.rhfweb.com</A> under the link headings below:<BR> <BR> 		[<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html">Federal Mind Control Case filed in Federal Court.</A> ]<BR>  			[<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovs1.html">Supplement 1</A> ], [<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsacases2.html">Supplement 2</A>]. [<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovsup3.html">Supplement 3</A>]<BR>  	<BR> <BR>  <BR> <BR> <BR> Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR> Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR> <BR> <BR> </FONT></HTML>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/13/2003 3:40:19 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, knagel gis.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Gangster Computer God Worldwide=
 Secret Containment policy made possible<BR>
solely by Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Hopefully this will end soon.&nbsp; I filed a case in US Federal Court, Gran=
d Rapids, MI, Case No: 1-02-CV-782 , to be ruled on in March, which is poste=
d at <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\">http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html</A> w=
hich may encourage the US government to defend US citizens and businesses fr=
om terrorist scalar wave wars and international espionage, especially agains=
t US companies developing new technologies such as energy technologies.&nbsp=
; There are important supplements with evidence to the case also posted at <=
A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com">www.rhfweb.com</A> under the link headings below:<=
BR> <BR> =09=09[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html">Federal Mi=
nd Control Case filed in Federal Court.</A> ]<BR>  =09=09=09[<A HREF=3D"http=
://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovs1.html">Supplement 1</A> ], [<A HREF=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/nsacases2.html">Supplement 2</A>]. [<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.=
com/nsagovsup3.html">Supplement 3</A>]<BR>  =09<BR> <BR>  <BR> <BR> <BR> Bar=
on Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR=
> Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.r=
hfweb.com\personal</A><BR> <BR> <BR> </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 20:06:16 2003
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	Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:03:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:03:48 -0800
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17a.1689206f.2b7dc47c aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:03:08 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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In a message dated 2/13/03 9:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom aol.com 
writes:


> 
> Thank you for your helpful comments and criticism. What about solar energy 
> amplified with laser or pure photonic light transistor circuits made of 
> dark and white phosphorescent technologies, crystal sound energy 
> amplifiers, fiber optics, and Quantum electronic circuits, to increase the 
> efficiency and intensity of solar technologies and pure solar fiber optic 
> circuits which do not need to use any electromagnetic technologies but only 
> pure photonic technologies?

>           REPLY  Tinker TOYS ? But I will check with the Tech's for there 
> call    But solar can work at night to an extent  with a gathering Neutrino 
>  advanced Tech. improvement. process   It works with wind to.   .    HOW 
> ABOUT A GRAVITY drive ??   SIR THAT IS the 23 rd century  . Or inter active 
> field propulsion that is the 25 TH century.  Dow Corning saw it 
> operational.  

    WE do have an advacement for fiber optic tech. that would boast it a 
generation over night it is for sale.  THe phase 
> conversion is 22 nd century that Tom got  THAT totally blows all electrical 
> theory out of water. it is a tinker toy to us and  NO one on this planet 
> has anything  remotely close.  A/C  IS THE DOMINATE situation on the planet 
> and we can drasticly cut usage factors    


>  checked out your CO web page on magnetic overunity devices.  I gave up the 
> development of a magnetic overunity device similar to yours, due to the 
> limits and variable fluctuations of the amounts of magnetic energy on 
> Earth.
> 
>    WE  do not have a web page.   OU  Please that is the way  ignorant main 
steam thinks  My photo is on the front cover of an elite Russian SCI. PUB. 
that goes to 16 country's it is attached.  I'm the snake oil saleman But the 
oil i sell is real     DO you know what causes our Magnetic fields. ? Do you 
know why the vary?  Do you know what causes our Gravity?  If not your at the 
what we consider the  stone age level. Which is current knowledge  Compared 
to where we are at. .I'm  not attempting to be arrogant SIR I'm just very 
jaded. I deal with 23 rd century level situations. THat science does even 
know about much less explain.   

> Text below 
>  
> 
> This is me and was taken by the Editor of Electrifying times. In June 2001  
> When the Toyota Corp. no less flew him to a near by state and he came here. 
> I saw him in Oregon in June 2002 also. He had  Pub. A story about an 
> operational exotic but cost effective practical electrical phase conversion 
> and conservation technology, totally beyond main stream science's ability 
> to explain. That would reduce electrical costs by 75% in any given 
> situation. The elite cutting edge Russians Pub. this and a paragraph. But 
> wanted something in scientific and done in British eighths and more 
> pictures for there next edition. 
> 
> The Dev. wrote a story but it revealed to much and the Corp. lawyer would 
> not approve releasing it. So they were sent a Corp. demo of operational 
> technologies CD disk but did not receive it. Considering Russian Science 
> far exceeds ours this is an honor for a promoter non scientist.  FYI 
> Russians are taught Trig. in the third grade. 
> 
> This is one the most respected cutting edge science pub. on this planet. 
> I'm taken very seriously in Russia by the scientific community. Unlike the 
> US where if you do not have Ph.D. after your name you do not meet there 
> arrogant elitist standard. I a  non scientist can even wade through Ph.D.   
> Phy.and Eng. like they are small school children as I did Delphi's/GM Chief 
> scientist.  They will not be happy campers when I bury them with their 
> counter productive backward theory only thinking. In what I call the dark 
> foreboding sea of ignorance.       
> 
> 
> 
> 




 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/13/0=
3 9:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Thank you for your helpful comments and criticism. What about solar energy a=
mplified with laser or pure photonic light transistor circuits made of dark=20=
and white phosphorescent technologies, crystal sound energy amplifiers, fibe=
r optics, and Quantum electronic circuits, to increase the efficiency and in=
tensity of solar technologies and pure solar fiber optic circuits which do n=
ot need to use any electromagnetic technologies but only pure photonic techn=
ologies?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Tinker TOYS ? But I will check with the=20=
Tech's for there call&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But solar can work at night to an ex=
tent&nbsp; with a gathering Neutrino&nbsp; advanced Tech. improvement. proce=
ss&nbsp;&nbsp; It works with wind to.&nbsp;&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HOW AB=
OUT A GRAVITY drive ??&nbsp;&nbsp; SIR THAT IS the 23 rd century&nbsp; . Or=20=
inter active field propulsion that is the 25 TH century.&nbsp; Dow Corning s=
aw it operational.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND=
-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B=
LOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE do hav=
e an advacement for fiber optic tech. that would boast it a generation over=20=
night it is for sale.&nbsp; THe phase </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">conversion is 22 nd century that Tom got&nbsp; THAT totally=
 blows all electrical theory out of water. it is a tinker toy to us and&nbsp=
; NO one on this planet has anything&nbsp; remotely close.&nbsp; A/C&nbsp; I=
S THE DOMINATE situation on the planet and we can drasticly cut usage factor=
s&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLO=
R: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQ=
UOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> checked out your CO web page o=
n magnetic overunity devices.&nbsp; I gave up the development of a magnetic=20=
overunity device similar to yours, due to the limits and variable fluctuatio=
ns of the amounts of magnetic energy on Earth.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp; WE&nbsp; do not have a web page.&nbsp;&nbsp; OU&nb=
sp; Please that is the way&nbsp; ignorant main steam thinks&nbsp; My photo i=
s on the front cover of an elite Russian SCI. PUB. that goes to 16 country's=
 it is attached.&nbsp; I'm the snake oil saleman But the oil i sell is real&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DO you know what causes our Magnetic fields. ? Do yo=
u know why the vary?&nbsp; Do you know what causes our Gravity?&nbsp; If not=
 your at the what we consider the&nbsp; stone age level. Which is current kn=
owledge&nbsp; Compared to where we are at. .I'm&nbsp; not attempting to be a=
rrogant SIR I'm just very jaded. I deal with 23 rd century level situations.=
 THat science does even know about much less explain.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Text below <BR>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER><IMG  SRC=3D"http://www.faraday.ru/cover5-1big.gif" WIDTH=
=3D"472" HEIGHT=3D"665" BORDER=3D"0"> <BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><BR>
This is me and was taken by the Editor of Electrifying times. In June 2001&n=
bsp; When the Toyota Corp. no less flew him to a near by state and he came h=
ere. I saw him in Oregon in June 2002 also. He had&nbsp; Pub. A story about=20=
an operational exotic but cost effective practical electrical phase conversi=
on and conservation technology, totally beyond main stream science's ability=
 to explain. That would reduce electrical costs by 75% in any given situatio=
n. The elite cutting edge Russians Pub. this and a paragraph. But wanted som=
ething in scientific and done in British eighths and more pictures for there=
 next edition. <BR>
<BR>
The Dev. wrote a story but it revealed to much and the Corp. lawyer would no=
t approve releasing it. So they were sent a Corp. demo of operational techno=
logies CD disk but did not receive it. Considering Russian Science far excee=
ds ours this is an honor for a promoter non scientist.&nbsp; FYI Russians ar=
e taught Trig. in the third grade. <BR>
<BR>
This is one the most respected cutting edge science pub. on this planet. I'm=
 taken very seriously in Russia by the scientific community. Unlike the US w=
here if you do not have Ph.D. after your name you do not meet there arrogant=
 elitist standard. I a&nbsp; non scientist can even wade through Ph.D.&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Phy.and Eng. like they are small school children as I did Delphi's/GM=
 Chief scientist.&nbsp; They will not be happy campers when I bury them with=
 their counter productive backward theory only thinking. In what I call the=20=
dark foreboding sea of ignorance.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</P></P></FONT> </HTML>

--part1_17a.1689206f.2b7dc47c_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 20:50:01 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:47:58 EST
Subject: Tom do you live in Grand Rapids Because i have a one of my      .
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       dish  satellite stores there I have never been to it. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 21:10:50 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: letter to John Mc Cain
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Dear Senator Mc Cain;

      As you are aware, there are quite a number of us who listen to 
Coast to Coast AM. Yesterday morning Richard C Hoagland of Enterprise 
Mission was interviewed about NASA. They recommended that we use 
faxes for optimal effect.

      I am one of the people who make Minnesota's Twincities what it 
is, number one in intellectual property development on a per capita 
basis. I have been attempting to solve a puzzle in physics called 
cohering the energy of the vacuum. While we have not been successful 
in this effort, I am, familiar with the latest developments in 
physics. There are a number of very interesting physics experiments 
which have potential application to the space program. At the top of 
the list is the inertial propulsion system developed by Robert Cook, 
www.forceborne.com . The research of Randall Mills, 
www.blacklightpower.com , also has potential applications.

      Michael Savage, author of the best selling Savage Nation, 
regularly asks us what the pebble in our shoe is. Well, the rock that 
is in my shoe is qualifications. I realize that the people who are 
running NASA are qualified to do so. You will recall that when they 
abandoned disposable rockets in favor of the shuttle, they said that 
they were going to build a space truck, which would be cheaper to 
operate. Instead, we have a vehicle which has a reported cost of 
$10,000 per pound for goods placed in stable earth orbit. It is also 
reported that the Russian Space Agency, RSA, can do the same job for 
$150 per pound. Now I ask you, if you were spending your own money, 
which trucking firm would you hire? My second question is, does it 
require an advanced degree in business management in order to figure 
out that the RSA is doing something right, and NASA is doing 
something wrong?

      Then there is the matter of the tiles. It appears that they are 
quite fragile. Part of the cost of operating the shuttle is replacing 
all 25,000 tiles before each flight. The tiles are necessitated 
because the vehicle is build of aluminum, instead of titanium. It is 
obvious to an old farmer like me that you have to be able to repair 
the vehicle in flight, because you can't park it along side of the 
road and call AAA. I have heard that there was a tile repair kit, but 
neither it nor provisions for an EVA were included in the last flight 
of Columbia, this is total incompetitence.

      This brings up the vehicles cargo carrying capacity. They threw 
away one half of it, in order to get it to land like an airplane. I 
would appreciate it if you would investigate alternate reentry 
vehicle designs. They also fabricated the Space Station from scratch, 
as opposed to linking the external fuel tanks together, preferring 
instead to burn them up after slowing them down.

      Richard regularly brings up the matter of NASA's reticence to 
share what they have found in space. Given that we are paying for 
their efforts, this is especially reprehensible. I hope that you will 
be able to do something about this too.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 13 21:41:37 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Why ask Fred?
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:38:40 -0600
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Sorry about the temporary thread shift, Keith and Robin, but, as a late comer to the
topic I think the gist is to use gamma rays to remediate nuclear wastes?

Evidently most nuclear reactions (fission reactors or decay) produce gammas that peak
at ~ 5 Mev energy.

I think that in order to "influence" disruption the ~312 Mev "quarks" in a nucleus,
gammas of energies approaching 10-100 Mev or more would be required.

As to generating x-rays, a rule of thumb is that the broad spectrum x-ray yield in
percent is ~1.0e-9*V*Z. Thus the efficiency of 10 Mev electrons striking a W target is
about
0.74 percent.

OTOH, there might be some gamma absorption windows that make higher energy gammas hard
to detect.

Some high energy astro-gamma links:

http://cossc.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgro/

http://hep.uchicago.edu/~stacee/astrophysics/astrophysics.html

Please type in the original thread subject.

Fred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 03:26:14 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17f.16e88707.2b7e2bfb aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:24:43 EST
Subject: DAN you take the risk with hydrogen WE HAVE ALL NEW TECH's. 
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In a message dated 2/13/03 3:09:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com 
writes:

A NEW WORLD FOR YOU 


> As far as the high pressure tank goes I just see it as another manageable 
> risk that comes with transportation

   DAN I do not expect you to understand my NEW technology  Postings.  AS it 
is Basically no formal trained Engineering  type or physicist on the planet 
is going to.  Because they 99% do not have knowledge on that level. .     HOW 
would dan like to see his family blow up in what would only been an accident, 
 in one of his what he thought was a manageable risk hydrogen cars.  ??  

You take the risk DAN.   WE have an advanced evolutionary self contained  
science fiction level EV theoretical Drive platform.     That will operate an 
electric motor even in Semis  that does not require battery's. PLUS  a far 
more advanced futuristic  inter active field propulsion technology that DOW 
CORNING saw operational in 1990 that needs 20 million and 3 to 5 years to 
refine Both are fueless situations.

 The first is gravity driven   AND WILL BE OPERATIONAL this year The second 
one can be restarted for 50,000 for controlled demo purposes because the 
fields being emitted can be detected 30 FT. away  and will cause DNA damage.  
People that is Star Trec. You all talking about tinker toys in comparison   
There are totally new situations  it is time to dump those other turkeys.

 Dan your being an ENG> i feel sorry for you  because  95% of the base of 
your knowledge will be totally obsolete THE EDU> . System fed you the totally 
incorrect info.    S-it Happens DAN get use to it. Presently  shown 
operational and has been seen by colleges and testing protocols are presently 
being arranged and was pub last year in E. Times and tested by Infinite 
Energy Mag. 

They were clueless even after they built an obsolete version at there site  
IT  is a new electricity phase conversion and conservation technology that 
with a generator will cut your bill 75%  as soon as you hook it up. Science 
is totally clueless how to explain it..  WHO cares as long as it functions as 
advertised?  

 WE do not deal with Main stream Science they BORE us to no end.    WE will 
be a privare CO only and  are arranging deals with world level groups 
presently. So we can start Manuf. WE have no WEB site. Presently  THe world 
changes change or be left behind. 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/13/0=
3 3:09:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com writes:<BR>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<B>A NEW WORLD FOR YOU </B><BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">As far as the high pressure tan=
k goes I just see it as another manageable risk that comes with transportati=
on</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; DAN I do not expect you to understand my <B>NEW t</B>echnology&=
nbsp; Postings.&nbsp; AS it is Basically no formal trained Engineering&nbsp;=
 type or physicist on the planet is going to.&nbsp; Because they 99% do not=20=
have knowledge on that level. .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>HOW </B>would dan=
 like to see his family blow up in what would only been an accident,&nbsp; i=
n one of his what he thought was a manageable risk hydrogen cars.&nbsp; ??&n=
bsp; <BR>
<BR>
You take the risk DAN.&nbsp;&nbsp; WE have an advanced evolutionary self con=
tained&nbsp; science fiction level EV theoretical Drive platform.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; That will operate an electric motor even in Semis&nbsp; that d=
oes not require battery's. PLUS&nbsp; a far more advanced futuristic&nbsp; i=
nter active field propulsion technology that <B>DOW CORNING</B> saw operatio=
nal in 1990 that needs <B>20 million</B> and 3 to 5 years to refine Both are=
 fueless situations.<BR>
<BR>
 The first is gravity driven&nbsp;&nbsp; AND WILL BE OPERATIONAL this year T=
he second one can be restarted for 50,000 for controlled demo purposes becau=
se the fields being emitted can be detected 30 FT. away&nbsp; and will cause=
 DNA damage.&nbsp; People that is Star Trec. You all talking about tinker to=
ys in comparison&nbsp;&nbsp; There are totally new situations&nbsp; it is ti=
me to dump those other turkeys.<BR>
<BR>
 Dan your being an ENG&gt; i feel sorry for you&nbsp; because&nbsp; 95% of t=
he base of your knowledge will be totally obsolete THE EDU&gt; . System fed=20=
you the totally incorrect info.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S-it Happens DAN get use t=
o it. Presently&nbsp; shown operational and has been seen by colleges and te=
sting protocols are presently being arranged and was pub last year in E. Tim=
es and tested by Infinite Energy Mag. <BR>
<BR>
They were clueless even after they built an obsolete version at there site&n=
bsp; IT&nbsp; is a new electricity phase conversion and conservation technol=
ogy that with a generator will cut your bill 75%&nbsp; as soon as you hook i=
t up. Science is totally clueless how to explain it..&nbsp; WHO cares as lon=
g as it functions as advertised?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 WE do not deal with Main stream Science they BORE us to no end.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; WE will be a privare CO only and&nbsp; are arranging deals with world=
 level groups presently. So we can start Manuf. WE have no WEB site. Present=
ly&nbsp; THe world changes change or be left behind. </P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_17f.16e88707.2b7e2bfb_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 05:41:27 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <197.15971a99.2b7e4ba9 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:39:53 EST
Subject:  Hydrogen economy I stopped at Humboldt it was a waste of time.  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: geford ucdavis.edu, etimes@teleport.com
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         Tom I stopped at  Humboldt in June 2002  on my way back from Oregon, 
 where I saw the editor of Electrifying Times. Who had been here a year 
earlier when the Toyota Corp. had flew him to a near by state. He had Pub. a 
story about a new evolutionary electricity drastic usage reducing technology. 
That is Totally beyond main stream sciences understanding that we will be 
Manuf. that he saw operational. 

 Plus I stopped at UC Davis in Sacramento also on the West coast Business 
trip. Both stops were a total waste of my time. I no longer deal with main 
stream science in regard to the new technology situations we will be Manuf. I 
only deal with the business community. FYI Solar or wind is not cost 
effective enough to compete in the market place with our new situations. 
Because the cost for hardware is to high considering the production outputs.  
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 05:45:58 2003
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Message-ID: <3E4CF2C6.3050502 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:44:38 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: letter to John Mc Cain
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thomas malloy wrote:

>      Then there is the matter of the tiles. It appears that they are 
> quite fragile. Part of the cost of operating the shuttle is replacing 
> all 25,000 tiles before each flight. The tiles are necessitated 
> because the vehicle is build of aluminum, instead of titanium. 


Makes no difference.  You must keep the heat of reentry away from the 
craft structure.  You make it of titanium without insulation and you'll 
cook the astronauts.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 06:39:50 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:38:25 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Handy consumer price index calculator
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See:

Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis - Consumer Price Index Calculator

http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/calc/

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 07:46:35 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:44:12 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: W. B. Clarke paper in Fusion Science and Technology
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A paper by the late W. B. Clarke was published. See:

http://www.ans.org/pubs/journals/fst/

Production of 4He in D2-Loaded Palladium-Carbon Catalyst II

W. Brian Clarke, Stanley J. Bos, Brian M. Oliver

ABSTRACT:

Measurements of He, 3He/4He, Ne and 13 other components (H2, HD, D2, CH4, 
H2O, HDO, D2O, N2, CO, C2H6, O2, Ar, and CO2) in four samples of gas from 
SRI International (SRI) are reported. Three samples were collected from SRI 
Case-type stainless steel cells containing ~10 g of Pd/C catalyst initially 
loaded with ~3 atm D2 at ~200°C, and the fourth sample (not identified) was 
stated to be a control. Case and the SRI researchers have claimed to 
observe 4He in concentrations of ~100 parts per million (ppm) and up to 11 
ppm, respectively, produced in these cells via the fusion reaction D + D = 
4He + 23.8 MeV. Others found no evidence for 4He addition that cannot be 
readily explained by leaks from the atmosphere into the SRI cells. One 
sample appears to be identical in composition to air, and the other three 
have been seriously affected by leak(s) into and from the SRI cells. The 
rare gas "forensic" evidence includes 3He/4He ratios and He and Ne 
concentrations that are almost identical to air values. The samples also 
show high N2 (a primary indicator of air), low O2, and high CO and CO2 due 
to reaction of incoming atmospheric O2 with C in the catalyst. In two 
samples, the original D2 (or H2) has almost completely disappeared by 
outflow through the leak(s). These results have obvious implications 
concerning the validity of the excess 4He concentrations claimed by Case 
and the SRI researchers.


COMMENT:

I do not see how the helium can be a leak in every case, because in some 
cases the concentration was higher that atmosphere.

Clarke was a strange fellow.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 07:47:58 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <1a6.10bbbaea.2b7e68cc aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:44:12 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 11:03:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622 
writes:

> Considering Russian Science far exceeds ours this is an honor for a promoter 
> non scientist.  FYI Russians are taught Trig. in the third grade. 
> 

Thank you for the information and ideas.  Developing an alternative energy 
company in Russia, where the scientists accept such ideas, which promote 
phase conversion, conversion technologies, and magnetic overunity 
technologies is a great idea.  Once the products are perfected for marketing 
in Russia where the environment may be more friendlier for new energy 
technologies, then I can also sell them to the USA later as well, since they 
have been established to work and sell in Russia. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/13/2003 11:03:08 PM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, JCarey9622 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Considering Russian Science far=
 exceeds ours this is an honor for a promoter non scientist.&nbsp; FYI Russi=
ans are taught Trig. in the third grade. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Thank you for the information and ideas.&nbsp; Developing an alternative ene=
rgy company in Russia, where the scientists accept such ideas, which promote=
 phase conversion, conversion technologies, and magnetic overunity technolog=
ies is a great idea.&nbsp; Once the products are perfected for marketing in=20=
Russia where the environment may be more friendlier for new energy technolog=
ies, then I can also sell them to the USA later as well, since they have bee=
n established to work and sell in Russia. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1a6.10bbbaea.2b7e68cc_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 08:19:50 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <109.201e4ba0.2b7e7091 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:17:21 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy I stopped at Humboldt it was a waste of time.  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JCarey9622@aol.com
CC: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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In a message dated 2/14/2003 8:41:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

> Solar or wind is not cost 
> effective enough to compete in the market place with our new situations. 
> Because the cost for hardware is to high considering the production 
> outputs.  
> 
> 

Thank you for the advice.  I have been working on promoting enclosed indoor 
greenhouses like the Biosphere I and II projects but for the home and 
business in cities and in the country,  and I have been working on using 
solar, water and hydrogen to power the greenhouses, since I can also use the 
purified water from the hydrogen power to feed the plants.   I may be hiring 
engineers to help me build the small dome enclosed environmentally controlled 
greenhouse power technologies. 

I have been thinking about funding or promoting shared solar and wind farms 
in the USA, but do to your advice I will look into other technologies as 
well.  I am also looking into the Pelamis system by Ocean Power Delivery Ltd 
at <A HREF="www.oceanpd.com">www.oceanpd.com</A> and the Planet Ark wind farm technologies developed in 
Germany which have 10,000 to 25,000 MW capacity.   

I have a friend who I have been funding who can build a magnetic overunity 
motor, but he was reluctant to complete the projects do to thugs and gangs.   
But if matters get safer, and if I get the funds, I will consider funding the 
magnetic overunity and phase conversion technologies that you are promoting.  
 I will send you an email if I get funds and events seem safe which may be 
several months from now, and find out if you may be interested in receiving 
some funds for your projects and ideas also. 


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

--part1_109.201e4ba0.2b7e7091_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/14/2003 8:41:33 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Solar or wind is not cost <BR>
effective enough to compete in the market place with our new situations. <BR=
>
Because the cost for hardware is to high considering the production outputs.=
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the advice.&nbsp; I have been working on promoting enclosed in=
door greenhouses like the Biosphere I and II projects but for the home and b=
usiness in cities and in the country,&nbsp; and I have been working on using=
 solar, water and hydrogen to power the greenhouses, since I can also use th=
e purified water from the hydrogen power to feed the plants.&nbsp;&nbsp; I m=
ay be hiring engineers to help me build the small dome enclosed environmenta=
lly controlled greenhouse power technologies. <BR>
<BR>
I have been thinking about funding or promoting shared solar and wind farms=20=
in the USA, but do to your advice I will look into other technologies as wel=
l.&nbsp; I am also looking into the Pelamis system by Ocean Power Delivery L=
td at <A HREF=3D"www.oceanpd.com">www.oceanpd.com</A> and the Planet Ark win=
d farm technologies developed in Germany which have 10,000 to 25,000 MW capa=
city.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have a friend who I have been funding who can build a magnetic overunity m=
otor, but he was reluctant to complete the projects do to thugs and gangs.&n=
bsp;&nbsp; But if matters get safer, and if I get the funds, I will consider=
 funding the magnetic overunity and phase conversion technologies that you a=
re promoting.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will send you an email if I get funds and events=
 seem safe which may be several months from now, and find out if you may be=20=
interested in receiving some funds for your projects and ideas also. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_109.201e4ba0.2b7e7091_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 10:03:31 2003
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Message-ID: <001d01c2d452$d3263ae0$0d72d73f metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3e.2beab521.2b7dcefe aol.com>
Subject: Re: Tom do you live in Grand Rapids Because i have a one of my      .
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:59:18 -0500
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Which store?  I live in Grand Rapids (I assume you mean Grand Rapids,
Michigan.)

Jeff Kooistra

----- Original Message -----
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <knagel@gis.net>
Cc: <ConexTom aol.com>; <tom@rhfweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: Tom do you live in Grand Rapids Because i have a one of my .


>        dish  satellite stores there I have never been to it.
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 10:28:14 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b8.394708e2.2b7e8e9d aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:25:33 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  Your mail is very fishy tom.  
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In a message dated 2/14/03 11:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom 
writes:


> 
> >> Solar or wind is not cost 
>> effective enough to compete in the market place with our new situations. 
>> Because the cost for hardware is to high considering the production 
>> outputs.  
>> 
>> 
> 
> Thank you for the advice.  I have been working on promoting enclosed indoor 
> greenhouses like the Biosphere I and II projects but for the home and 
> business in cities and in the country,  and I have been working on using 
> solar, water and hydrogen to power the greenhouses, since I can also use 
> the purified water from the hydrogen power to feed the plants.   I may be 
> hiring engineers to help me build the small dome enclosed environmentally 
> controlled greenhouse power technologies. 
>        REPLY  May I ask what situation places you in a position  to be able 
> to do that. Because your not indicating that  Because you have to be at 
> least a multi  millionaire bus. type to be able to do that. You cannot make 
> 20 bucks an hr. working for someone else. and be in a position to do that. 
> I'm sorry but any one can say I'm lokking at this and that.

   you still have the natural solar aspects but would not need  the hardware 
aspects.  THAT IS something that we can 
> make feasable because we  can drastically reduce the operational cost factor 
> for a greenhouse. Naturally I do not expect any one to believe that because 
> it is writen in an E mail.  Because I'm speaking about a world they do not 
> understand so they would naturally think does not exist   
> 
> I have been thinking about funding or promoting shared solar and wind farms 
> in the USA, but do to your advice I will look into other technologies as 
> well.  I am also looking into the Pelamis system by Ocean Power Delivery 
> Ltd at <A HREF="www.oceanpd.com">www.oceanpd.com</A> and the Planet Ark wind farm technologies developed 
> in Germany which have 10,000 to 25,000 MW capacity. 

     REPLY   Please forget  Shared solar and wind and ocean power to ANYone 
can promote  Funding is an entire different story. Premoting is words  
funding something like that is big bucks.and sinse you said your friend was 
worried about gangs and thugs . 99% chance you make 10 bucks an hr working at 
the grocery store or something.  > 
> 
> I have a friend who I have been funding who can build a magnetic overunity 
> motor, but he was reluctant to complete the projects do to thugs and gangs. 
>   
> 
       REPLY   He may be giving you an excuse  I can have a Tech. look at it 
for free to see if he is blue skiing you or there is something there  99% 
says it is not feasible unless he can solve the problem of magnets losing 
filed strength which they do if there in a situation where heat is involved. 
WE can solve it  and will as far as I know with Dennis Lees' Sundae Gen. 
Because it has the same problem. And he cannot solve it as far as I know No 
one else on the planet knows the answer to that question as far as I know.

 And is why the Howard Johnson, Adams or whatever cannot be feasible they are 
just toys There is only a few people on the planet that have anything 
somewhat worth while   THE sundance  is the best generator on the planet that 
we can see. But have not looked at that one in a Russian republic yet. The 
lutec was not worth our time. It appeared as one that someone attempted in 
Calif. 20 years ago. BUT is was a start not an answer  Steven greer has a 
unit that gathers neutrinos that was from Tesla's 1899 notes  If it is the 
same one I have known about for 20 months  That is totally real. But the 
problem is it will be radioactive in 2500 years.  Tesla had to know that and 
is why he did not pursue it because he probably could not solve that aspect.  
99% that dev. of that did not create that situation he just developed it  You 
have to understand neutrinos are radiant which is radiation. OUR main stream 
science knows about zero.     
  
 Overunity   cannot basically be done but high EFF is possible but science 
does not understand electricity EFF. It is the same theory as a 99% EFF. gas 
fire place you buy say at lowes. Regular  Magnets lose field strength in 
operational situations  an you may have a high EFF. situation but your not 
creating more out than in.  Science does not understand it appears power has 
to come from some where no matter what.  You cannot create a Gal. and a half 
gas from one Gal.  you cannot create a unit and a half of electricity from 
one unit.   BUT you can burn them per see to a 99% level. THe inter active 
field Tech. DOW Corning saw operational was the next step in evolution beyond 
known magmetics. SIR  I will probably be a billionaire in 18 months. KEEP 
your money unless your a world level Business player currently  if so i will 
deal with you otherwise I will not on a business. level.  

 But if matters get safer, and if I get the funds, I will consider funding 
the magnetic overunity and phase conversion 
> technologies that you are promoting.   I will send you an email if I get 
> funds and events seem safe which may be several months from now, and find 
> out if you may be interested in receiving some funds for your projects and 
> ideas also. 
> 
> 
> 
--part1_b8.394708e2.2b7e8e9d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/14/0=
3 11:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Solar or wind is not cost <BR>
effective enough to compete in the market place with our new situations. <BR=
>
Because the cost for hardware is to high considering the production outputs.=
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the advice.&nbsp; I have been working on promoting enclosed in=
door greenhouses like the Biosphere I and II projects but for the home and b=
usiness in cities and in the country,&nbsp; and I have been working on using=
 solar, water and hydrogen to power the greenhouses, since I can also use th=
e purified water from the hydrogen power to feed the plants.&nbsp;&nbsp; I m=
ay be hiring engineers to help me build the small dome enclosed environmenta=
lly controlled greenhouse power technologies. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; May I ask what situation pl=
aces you in a position&nbsp; to be able to do that. Because your not indicat=
ing that&nbsp; Because you have to be at least a multi&nbsp; millionaire bus=
. type to be able to do that. You cannot make 20 bucks an hr. working for so=
meone else. and be in a position to do that. I'm sorry but any one can say I=
'm lokking at this and that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; you still have=20=
the natural solar aspects but would not need&nbsp; the hardware aspects.&nbs=
p; THAT IS something that we can </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">make feasable because we&nbsp; can drastically reduce the o=
perational cost factor for a greenhouse. Naturally I do not expect any one t=
o believe that because it is writen in an E mail.&nbsp; Because I'm speaking=
 about a world they do not understand so they would naturally think does not=
 exist&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
I have been thinking about funding or promoting shared solar and wind farms=20=
in the USA, but do to your advice I will look into other technologies as wel=
l.&nbsp; I am also looking into the Pelamis system by Ocean Power Delivery L=
td at <A HREF=3D"www.oceanpd.com">www.oceanpd.com</A> and the Planet Ark win=
d farm technologies developed in Germany which have 10,000 to 25,000 MW capa=
city. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI=
ZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REP=
LY&nbsp;&nbsp; Please forget&nbsp; Shared solar and wind and ocean power to=20=
ANYone can promote&nbsp; Funding is an entire different story. Premoting is=20=
words&nbsp; funding something like that is big bucks.and sinse you said your=
 friend was worried about gangs and thugs . 99% chance you make 10 bucks an=20=
hr working at the grocery store or something.&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE=20=
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px=
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
I have a friend who I have been funding who can build a magnetic overunity m=
otor, but he was reluctant to complete the projects do to thugs and gangs.&n=
bsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; He may be giving you=20=
an excuse&nbsp; I can have a Tech. look at it for free to see if he is blue=20=
skiing you or there is something there&nbsp; 99% says it is not feasible unl=
ess he can solve the problem of magnets losing filed strength which they do=20=
if there in a situation where heat is involved. WE can solve it&nbsp; and wi=
ll as far as I know with Dennis Lees' Sundae Gen. Because it has the same pr=
oblem. And he cannot solve it as far as I know No one else on the planet kno=
ws the answer to that question as far as I know.<BR>
<BR>
 And is why the Howard Johnson, Adams or whatever cannot be feasible they ar=
e just toys There is only a few people on the planet that have anything some=
what worth while&nbsp;&nbsp; THE sundance&nbsp; is the best generator on the=
 planet that we can see. But have not looked at that one in a Russian republ=
ic yet. The lutec was not worth our time. It appeared as one that someone at=
tempted in Calif. 20 years ago. BUT is was a start not an answer&nbsp; Steve=
n greer has a unit that gathers neutrinos that was from Tesla's 1899 notes&n=
bsp; If it is the same one I have known about for 20 months&nbsp; That is to=
tally real. But the problem is it will be radioactive in 2500 years.&nbsp; T=
esla had to know that and is why he did not pursue it because he probably co=
uld not solve that aspect.&nbsp; 99% that dev. of that did not create that s=
ituation he just developed it&nbsp; You have to understand neutrinos are rad=
iant which is radiation. OUR main stream science knows about zero.&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
 Overunity&nbsp;&nbsp; cannot basically be done but high EFF is possible but=
 science does not understand electricity EFF. It is the same theory as a 99%=
 EFF. gas fire place you buy say at lowes. Regular&nbsp; Magnets lose field=20=
strength in operational situations&nbsp; an you may have a high EFF. situati=
on but your not creating more out than in.&nbsp; Science does not understand=
 it appears power has to come from some where no matter what.&nbsp; You cann=
ot create a Gal. and a half gas from one Gal.&nbsp; you cannot create a unit=
 and a half of electricity from one unit.&nbsp;&nbsp; BUT you can burn them=20=
per see to a 99% level. THe inter active field Tech. DOW Corning saw operati=
onal was the next step in evolution beyond known magmetics. SIR&nbsp; I will=
 probably be a billionaire in 18 months. KEEP your money unless your a world=
 level Business player currently&nbsp; if so i will deal with you otherwise=20=
I will not on a business. level.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> But if matters get safer, a=
nd if I get the funds, I will consider funding the magnetic overunity and ph=
ase conversion </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">technologies that you are promoting.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will sen=
d you an email if I get funds and events seem safe which may be several mont=
hs from now, and find out if you may be interested in receiving some funds f=
or your projects and ideas also. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_b8.394708e2.2b7e8e9d_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 10:35:49 2003
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27926;
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <16c.1aa9bf55.2b7e9046 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:32:38 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
To: ConexTom aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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         We are dev. in the US first  40 miles away from you Tom   Flint. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 10:51:57 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:48:16 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: A CF rocket would not have this problem. Right?
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There has been a debate in the press over whether the shuttle can re-enter 
a little more slowly than it does, reducing the maximum temperature. Some 
experts say it can, others say the flight path is already as slow as it can be.

It seems to me that this would not be a problem for a rocket powered by CF 
or some other o-u energy source, assuming there was a large supply of 
propellant. I assume a CF rocket could begin re-entry, and then thrust 
downward, stretching out the time it spends in the upper atmosphere until 
it gradually slows down to, say, Mach 4 instead of Mach 18.

If the supply of propellant was unlimited, or if the vehicle was some sort 
of antigravity machine that does not use propellant (which is impossible as 
far as I know), then the vehicle could simply slow down in space and  stop 
outside the atmosphere, say 100 km above an airport, and then drift down at 
any convenient speed. The only reason air braking is used now is because 
rockets use up almost all their fuel before returning from space.

All in all, I think a space elevator would be a lot more practical than any 
vehicle.

Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 10:53:58 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:49:47 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] The new Tech. is simple 
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            Simple   Apms currently  conduct basically  all the work when 
your using A/C for any given situation.  NOw they do not.  The now opposite 
currently wasted aspects are now conducting the vast majority of prefomed 
work. With a new conversion process. That the 50 million dollar new state of 
the art  tech. center here named after the billionaire CS Mott who was the 
prime builder of General Motors  has all ready saw operational  Along with a 
Non Eng.Vice president  from Kettering Univ. Formally General Motors 
Institute and was Pub. last year.  

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Radiation risks put in perspective
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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How would you like to live close to an large unshielded nuclear reactor?

Would you feel a lot safer if you lived near a freeway or a gas station =
instead? The lesser of two evils is pretty obvious, right?

Radiation standards have become the environmentalist's dream and the =
energy realist's nightmare; they are set well below any real danger and =
fail to assess the relative risks or the cost/benefits of particular =
kinds of energy. But surprising data is emerging.

In fact, shocking and unexpected data has emerged from EPA monitoring, =
for instance - did you know a coal burning plant releases 100 times the =
radiation than from a nuclear plant, over its lifetime, on average.

If we had to clean up the radiation from one coal-fired plant released =
directly into the atmosphere over its lifetime, it would cost more than =
decommissioning every nuclear plant ever built, because that radiation =
is so finely dispersed and spread throughout the landscape.

The automobiles in any large metropolitan area like Atlanta will release =
more radiation in one day than every nuclear plant in the South will =
release in one month. Yes, there is a tiny amount of uranium, thorium =
and radon in every gallon of gasoline you use. *Uranium and other =
radioactive elements have an affinity for hydrocarbons, especially crude =
oil* And refining only gets out part of it, while the rest is released =
in the worst possible manner, finely particulated and spread evenly =
throughout the atmosphere. If you don't believe it, place a good GM =
monitor near your car's exhaust.

A big disaster like Chernobyl is always possible due to terrorism but is =
difficult to imagine in the USA otherwise. But radiation spread through =
hydrocarbon combustion is constant and cumulative over time.=20

Those horrible third-world accidents like Chernobyl that make the =
headlines should be contrasted with oil and gasoline pipeline accidents, =
like in Nigeria and elsewhere, which in the last few years alone =
resulted in more than many thousands killed and horribly maimed. Or the =
burning of peat in the third world - peat has a many times the uranium =
of oil, and it is inhaled closer to where it is burned, due to lack of =
adequate ventilation. A human life shortened by radiation from burning =
peat (or high octane super) is no less valuable than one caused by a =
nuclear catastrophe.

Sound impossible? Then take the time to read:
http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

This is the type of information the Sierra Club doesn't want you to =
consider when you weigh the available options, none of which are ideal.

We are always playing the game of "lesser of possible evils." But we =
must use science and common sense, not rhetoric, to lead us to =
understand all of the variables.

And oh yeah, about living next to that large unshielded nuclear reactor- =
you already do, and most likely your ancestors even worshiped it.

Jones
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>How would you like to live close to an large unshielded nuclear=20
reactor?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would you&nbsp;feel a lot&nbsp;safer&nbsp;if you lived&nbsp;near a =
freeway=20
or a gas station instead? The lesser of two evils is pretty obvious,=20
right?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Radiation standards have become the environmentalist's dream and =
the energy=20
realist's nightmare; they are set well below any real danger and fail to =
assess=20
the relative risks or the cost/benefits of particular kinds of energy. =
But=20
surprising data is emerging.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In fact, shocking and unexpected data has emerged from EPA =
monitoring, for=20
instance&nbsp;- did you know a coal burning plant releases 100 times the =

radiation than from a nuclear plant, over its lifetime, on =
average.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If we had to clean up the radiation from one coal-fired plant =
released=20
directly into the atmosphere over its lifetime, it would cost more than=20
decommissioning every nuclear plant ever built, because that radiation =
is so=20
finely dispersed and spread throughout the landscape.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The automobiles in any large metropolitan area like Atlanta will =
release=20
more radiation in one day than every nuclear plant in the South will =
release in=20
one month. Yes, there is a tiny amount of uranium, thorium and radon in =
every=20
gallon of gasoline you use. *Uranium and other radioactive elements have =
an=20
affinity for hydrocarbons, especially crude oil* And refining only gets =
out part=20
of it, while the rest is released in the worst possible manner, finely=20
particulated and spread evenly throughout the atmosphere. If you don't =
believe=20
it, place a good GM monitor near your car's exhaust.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A big disaster like Chernobyl is always possible&nbsp;due to =
terrorism but=20
is difficult to imagine in the USA otherwise.&nbsp;But radiation spread =
through=20
hydrocarbon combustion is constant and cumulative over time. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Those horrible third-world accidents like Chernobyl that make the =
headlines=20
should be contrasted with&nbsp;oil and gasoline pipeline accidents, =
like&nbsp;in=20
Nigeria and elsewhere, which&nbsp;in the last few years alone resulted =
in more=20
than many thousands killed and horribly maimed. Or the burning of peat =
in the=20
third world - peat has a many times the uranium of oil, and it is =
inhaled closer=20
to where it is burned, due to lack of adequate ventilation. A human life =

shortened by radiation from burning peat (or high octane super) is no =
less=20
valuable than one caused by a nuclear catastrophe.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sound impossible?&nbsp;Then take the time to read:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html">http:/=
/www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is the type of information the Sierra Club doesn't want you to =

consider when you weigh the available options, none of which are =
ideal.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We are always playing the game of "lesser of possible evils." But =
we must=20
use science and common sense, not rhetoric, to lead us to understand all =
of the=20
variables.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And oh yeah, about&nbsp;living next to&nbsp;that large unshielded =
nuclear=20
reactor- you already do, and most likely your ancestors even worshiped =
it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C2D417.1DC85600--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 11:10:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1e.a1ba59e.2b7e9853 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:06:59 EST
Subject: : Dan, are you Toyota's General Legal Council Here in the US?......
To: alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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                        DAN   the only DAN i know is the one I talked to last 
year and he is Toyota's General legal Council here in the US .and is 50 MI 
away in Ann Arbor MI.      AND we could not agree because  the parent in 
Japan wanted patents.  And I told we would have trademarks only and he did 
not know what to say at that point.      I did leave him a message recently. 
On his cell phone.  Is that you ?? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 11:13:50 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:50:06 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Thugs, gangs and o-u motors
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ConexTom aol.com wrote:

>I have a friend who I have been funding who can build a magnetic overunity 
>motor, but he was reluctant to complete the projects do to thugs and 
>gangs.   But if matters get safer, and if I get the funds . . .

I do not believe this. Many people have made similar claims, but I have 
never seen convincing evidence for them. In any case, your friend has 
nothing to worry about. People do not believe such machines can exist, so 
they will not bother to attack him at this stage.

I have a suggestion which I have extended to others who claimed they have 
such machines. Tell your friend to build a working prototype of any size, 
with any power output. Send me a video of the machine in operation. If the 
video looks at all convincing, I will visit your friend and purchase the 
machine for $10,000. I get one machine for that money, and nothing else. 
Your friend retains all intellectual property ownership, business stock 
shares, etc. the machine will be my property and I will do whatever I 
please with it. I will show to a great many people, but if your friend 
wishes to remain anonymous I will not reveal his name or whereabouts. Let 
me worry about the thugs and gangs. I do not believe they exists, but if 
they do I can neutralize them with a properly organized public relations 
campaign, by making use of modern, international, low-cost Internet 
communications. I command an elite audience of 2,000 to 3,000 readers per 
week. I have distributed 30,500 copies of cold fusion papers in four months 
to people all across the globe. We have readers in all nations of Europe, 
in Japan, and people who regularly check in from dozens of countries, such 
as Saudi Arabia, Ireland, Iceland, Tonga, and yesterday South Africa and 
Greece. If I circulate proof that an OU machine of this nature exists, that 
proof will reach all corners of the earth before the thugs and gangs 
realize what is happening. By the time they become alarmed and try to 
suppress the information it will be everywhere and there will be no point 
to attacking me.

Many other people have made similar offers to buy o-u machines. Eric Krieg, 
for example. The difference is that I mean it and he does not.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 11:18:10 2003
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From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] The new Tech. is simple 
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Jack,

----- Original Message -----
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>

>             Simple   Apms currently  conduct basically  all the work when
> your using A/C for any given situation.  NOw they do not.  The now
opposite
> currently wasted aspects are now conducting the vast majority of prefomed
> work.

This is an interesting statement! Can you be specific as to what carries or
transfers the energy in this new technology?

 >With a new conversion process.

I notice that you state this new conversion is 100% efficient, no more, no
less. I know of energy conversion systems that can demonstrate efficiencies
of 95-97%, so what's the big deal?

Regards,

Jon

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 11:49:01 2003
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Millennium=20Twain?= <unamity yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A Cold-Fusion rocket would not have this problem. Right?
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...

Spaceplanes have a LOT more control over re-entry!

The Shuttle was designed for ballastic, fast and hot, re-
entry.  L/D ratio of 7.  Flies (falls) like a brick!!

See the (better) Sanger (skip-glider) idea from the 1930s.

A good airliner or military aeroshell today, WITHOUT active drag
negation, has a L/D (lift-to-drag) three or four times better than the
'Shuttle-Missile', the 'Shuttle-Bomb'.

Any spaceplane WITH active drag negation, and thrusting,
is be able to spread-out the re-entry time -- reduce
the re-entry heating -- by a factor of five to ten.


Millennium

[Do a web-search under "Space Cub".  If you use re-entry
retro-thrusting, rather than ballistic heating re-entry,
then the old steel-and-rivets aeroshells can withstand
the heat load of re-entry from orbit ...]




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 12:07:52 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Radiation risks put in perspective
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:04:34 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:52:06 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>And oh yeah, about living next to that large unshielded nuclear reactor- you already do, and most likely your ancestors even worshiped it.
[snip]
Actually, it is shielded, by both the Earth's magnetic field, and a couple f hundred kilometers of atmosphere. If it weren't, we 'de be in trouble.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 12:09:28 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:07:47 -0500
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Subject: Re: Radiation risks put in perspective
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Radiation standards have become the environmentalist's dream and the 
>energy realist's nightmare; they are set well below any real danger and 
>fail to assess the relative risks or the cost/benefits of particular kinds 
>of energy. But surprising data is emerging.

Radiation standards are set by nuclear power industry experts, not 
environmentalists. Environmentalists have little influence in Washington, 
and no influence whatever over the nuclear industry. The industry is dying 
for reasons that have nothing to do with radiation standards or 
environmentalists. It is dying because nuclear power generators cost too 
much, and the financial risks from even a minor accident are prohibitive.

The nuclear industry and its supporters have often blamed environmentalists 
for its troubles, but this is ridiculous. Environmentalists politically 
powerless. They are so weak, they cannot force the coal industry to spend a 
few hundred million dollars to stop killing ~20,000 people a year. Every 
environmentalist, every power company official, and every politician in 
Washington knows that coal is filthy and dangerous, it kills thousands of 
people, and it could easily be cleaned up for a few pennies per KWH. For 
that matter, all environmentalists, and President Bush, and all automobile 
and oil company executives know that it would be easy to increase U.S. 
automobile mileage standards and eliminate oil imports. This is not done 
because the people who profit from waste, filth, pollution and misery have 
much more political power than those who want to clean up. They use this 
power to stifle innovation. They lie to the public, telling it that 
improved mileage would make cars and SUVs more dangerous.


>In fact, shocking and unexpected data has emerged from EPA monitoring, for 
>instance - did you know a coal burning plant releases 100 times the 
>radiation than from a nuclear plant, over its lifetime, on average.

This is not news, and it is not shocking or unexpected. It has been common 
knowledge for at least 30 years. Most nuclear industry publications and web 
sites have cited this fact for as long as I can remember. No 
environmentalist would dispute it.

Even if nuclear plants were perfectly safe and benign -- like wind farms -- 
they would have no future. They are not dying because of regulations or 
public opposition or safety risks -- real or imaginary. The only issue is 
financial risk. As I pointed out yesterday, when a 500 MW coal fired plant 
exploded a few years ago, and was totally wiped out, it was rebuilt for a 
moderate cost and put back in operation in a year and a half:

http://www.babcock.com/pgg/tt/pdf/BR-1724.pdf

The Connecticut Yankee nuclear plant suffered a minor accident -- the sort 
of thing that would shut down a coal or gas plant for a few days while 
repairs were made. But the damage was so difficult to deal with that after 
hundreds of millions were spent on years of futile efforts to fix it, the 
plant was declared a de facto "nuclear waste dump," and it was scrapped. So 
far, $470 million have been spent, and 20 or 30 years of potential revenue 
from the plant have been lost. No one was hurt or endangered by this 
accident. Safety was not an issue. The problem was money. Radioactive fuel 
is difficult to work with, and nuclear plants are so badly designed, they 
are a fiscal nightmare. The Davis-Besse plant has been closed for a year 
because of corrosion. No accident occurred, but a year of revenue has been 
lost, and no one knows how to fix it. This problem could be fixed in a 
conventional plant in a few weeks.

Nuclear power was left behind 30 years ago by improvements in other sources 
of energy, such as wind power. Nuclear power may seem shiny and new, but it 
is actually vacuum tube, prop-plane era 1950s technology. Once customers 
turn aside, you cannot rescue an obsolete product, although countless 
corporations have gone under trying. (Sun Microsystems, for example, is on 
the verge of expiring for this reason.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 12:29:32 2003
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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] The new Tech. is simple
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       DAN      Do you understand electricity?  Unless you understand how to 
use the now wasted aspects as the prime power provider.  You no longer 
understand elecrtricity.   if not you would be of  no help to me.  Because if 
we can produce it the self taught  tech's are far better engineers than you 
are.  

I would not higher  an ENG. with a degree to work in my new CO. Unless he 
started out as the self taught farm boy type I want the self taught  farm boy 
type ENG. working for me. Here that Dave Doherty a vice president of 
Kettering Univ. Formally General Motors Institute.  Unless you totally 
changed your program  we are not going to send or employ any body in regard 
to Kettering 

Farm Boy types are worth their weight in gold. I would not give you plug 
nickel for an in the box college trained only engineer. They are 99% jokes.   
The ones who built the built big corp. in the early days and after the war 
were all basically Ex self taught farm boys.  

  HELLO this in not Rocket Science  This is common sense.   If it worked once 
it will work again because it does not work now there has to be a reason 
why.?    GM went down the tubes in the 80's  after CS MOTT  THE  prime 
builder of the corp. died in the late 70's at 97.

 They had the best ENG. on the planet in the 50's   BECAUSE after the WAR THE 
 Ex farms boy took advantage of the GI Bill. .   BY the 80's  there ENG. was 
a total joke    How DO I NOW THAT ?   Because I worked for General Motors 
from 69' to 99 . I seen the last of the GREAT ones  and they were sight to 
behold.  My brother was one of them an Engineering genius and HE died from 
work related cancer in 67' AT THE AGE OF 41.  

THEN I SAW  the beginnings of the idiots in the early 70's   BTDT      DAN    
i HAVE JUST GIVEN YOU THE formula that Henry Ford,  CS  Mott,  Billy Durant 
The creator of GM,  Walter Chysler Who worked first for Durant  The hard 
drinking Dodge Brothers used to  built the most involved in our life's 
situations on this planet. Besides electricity and we will drastically reduce 
the cost factor of that for you.  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; DAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you understand electricity?=
&nbsp; Unless you understand how to use the now wasted aspects as the prime=20=
power provider.&nbsp; You no longer understand elecrtricity.&nbsp;&nbsp; if=20=
not you would be of&nbsp; no help to me.&nbsp; Because if we can produce it=20=
the self taught&nbsp; tech's are far better engineers than you are.&nbsp; <B=
R>
<BR>
I would not higher&nbsp; an ENG. with a degree to work in my new CO. Unless=20=
he started out as the self taught farm boy type I want the self taught&nbsp;=
 farm boy type ENG. working for me. Here that Dave Doherty a vice president=20=
of Kettering Univ. Formally General Motors Institute.&nbsp; Unless you total=
ly changed your program&nbsp; we are not going to send or employ any body in=
 regard to Kettering <BR>
<BR>
Farm Boy types are worth their weight in gold. I would not give you plug nic=
kel for an in the box college trained only engineer. They are 99% jokes.&nbs=
p;&nbsp; The ones who built the built big corp. in the early days and after=20=
the war were all basically Ex self taught farm boys.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; HELLO this in not Rocket Science&nbsp; This is common sense.&nbsp;&nb=
sp; If it worked once it will work again because it does not work now there=20=
has to be a reason why.?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GM went down the tubes in the 80'=
s&nbsp; after CS MOTT&nbsp; THE&nbsp; prime builder of the corp. died in the=
 late 70's at 97.<BR>
<BR>
 They had the best ENG. on the planet in the 50's&nbsp;&nbsp; BECAUSE after=20=
the WAR THE&nbsp; Ex farms boy took advantage of the GI Bill. .&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
BY the 80's&nbsp; there ENG. was a total joke&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> How DO I=20=
NOW THAT ?</B>&nbsp;&nbsp; Because I worked for General Motors from 69' to 9=
9 . I seen the last of the <B>GREAT </B>ones&nbsp; and they were sight to be=
hold.&nbsp; My brother was one of them an Engineering genius and HE died fro=
m work related cancer in 67' AT THE AGE OF 41.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
THEN I SAW&nbsp; the beginnings of the idiots in the early 70's&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
BTDT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i HAVE JUST GIVEN Y=
OU THE formula that Henry Ford,&nbsp; CS&nbsp; Mott,&nbsp; Billy Durant The=20=
creator of GM,&nbsp; Walter Chysler Who worked first for Durant&nbsp; The ha=
rd drinking Dodge Brothers used to&nbsp; built the most involved in our life=
's situations on this planet. Besides electricity and we will drastically re=
duce the cost factor of that for you.&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 13:20:29 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:16:15 EST
Subject: JED how about 25,000 because you offered that for the lighter 
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         To be precise  ERIC offers to Pay 10,000 to see  1500 Watts with a 
self contained situation for 24 hr.'s.  SEE  NOT BUY         Jed I will sell 
you one OF THE PHASE CONVERSION UNITS  for 25,000  which is what you offered 
me over the phone  for the cigarette lighter that operates on water  but that 
is not for sale    Gene mallove's people have  all ready tested  the phase 
conversion. here   and he has it in tape. call me  810 618 9234  

  Plus he built an obsolete version with our instructions and GENE cannot 
explain it.   But his is cluster you know what. And is very dangerous and we 
are surprised they did not kill themselves playing with it.   Because they 
were totally clueless what they were attempting. But ours is very safe.    

 We will give you a nice one on a stand  and as  bonus you can actually 
operate 3 phase machinery from a 220v power draw Or run a Gen with it that 
converts to single phase. I have a two HP converter ready to go. The unit has 
had  performed operational  for several months.   iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP. 
OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V  THAT is totally impossible according to taught 
theory.  

IT  proves beyond any doubt because of its operational aspects the first new 
electrical theory in one century.   Which blows current electrical theory out 
the window.  And is very durable and should serve you well under heavy load 
for years before needing any service.  ANY given applicable operational 
situation would now use far less power to operate. 

    ConexTom aol.com wrote:

>I have a friend who I have been funding who can build a magnetic overrating 
>motor, but he was reluctant to complete the projects do to thugs and 
>gangs.   But if matters get safer, and if I get the funds . . .

I do not believe this. Many people have made similar claims, but I have 
never seen convincing evidence for them. In any case, your friend has 
nothing to worry about. People do not believe such machines can exist, so 
they will not bother to attack him at this stage.

I have a suggestion which I have extended to others who claimed they have 
such machines. Tell your friend to build a working prototype of any size, 
with any power output. Send me a video of the machine in operation. If the 
video looks at all convincing, I will visit your friend and purchase the 
machine for $10,000. I get one machine for that money, and nothing else. 
Your friend retains all intellectual property ownership, business stock 
shares, etc. the machine will be my property and I will do whatever I 
please with it. I will show to a great many people, but if your friend 
wishes to remain anonymous I will not reveal his name or whereabouts. Let 
me worry about the thugs and gangs. I do not believe they exists, but if 
they do I can neutralize them with a properly organized public relations 
campaign, by making use of modern, international, low-cost Internet 
communications. I command an elite audience of 2,000 to 3,000 readers per 
week. I have distributed 30,500 copies of cold fusion papers in four months 
to people all across the globe. We have readers in all nations of Europe, 
in Japan, and people who regularly check in from dozens of countries, such 
as Saudi Arabia, Ireland, Iceland, Tonga, and yesterday South Africa and 
Greece. If I circulate proof that an OU machine of this nature exists, that 
proof will reach all corners of the earth before the thugs and gangs 
realize what is happening. By the time they become alarmed and try to 
suppress the information it will be everywhere and there will be no point 
to attacking me.

Many other people have made similar offers to buy o-u machines. Eric Krieg, 
for example. The difference is that I mean it and he does not.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 14:01:39 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:56:17 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Radiation risks put in perspective
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Jed Rothwell wrote in support of wind power " Nuclear power was left behind 30 years ago by improvements in other sources  of energy, such as wind power. Nuclear power may seem shiny and new, but it is actually vacuum tube, prop-plane era 1950s technology."

Oh yes. More breezy rhetoric, Wind power... so simple, so robust, so advanced...

Consider what happened in the recent history of wind power when you put together your best engineers, pick the best site in North America, and spend enormous sums. The federal government's involvement in wind energy research and development began in earnest within two years after the Arab Oil Crisis of 1973. NASA developed the horizontal axis wind turbine, the MOD-0, at the NASA Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. NASA engineers used German Ulrich Hutter's two-bladed, downwind rotor idea for their advanced design. 

Then they were ready to show the world their masterpiece, their first and only installation at a prime site in Boone, North Carolina. 

What did we you get? Cheap pollution-free power for centuries?

HA

First, unpredicted low frequency sound emissions resonating in the many homes scattered through hills and valleys even miles away from the installation created a giant local uproar, but before the opponents could mount protest marches, the unthinkable happened. Huge dynamic loads developed whenever a blade entered the "dead" space behind the tower creating too much stress, and the giant tower fell apart.

It took several years of engineering studies, responding to outraged Congressional inquiries (from none other than Barry Goldwater), and other diversions to figure out what was going on and switch to an upwind, teetered hub configuration. But it was too late, the truth was out, and wind cannot be even considered for use in populated areas (Boone is not even that populated).

These new designs were put all over a few deserted hills in California, thanks to incredibly generous tax write-offs and now operate now whenever enough wind is available, usually at night when the power isn't needed, providing almost zero help to the power outages last winter.

There are so few good sites for these overpriced monstrosities that wind cannot even begin to supply 1% of California's needs. And California is one of the prime locations in the country. It is hopeless elsewhere.

It is absurd to even mention this tiny source of energy as even a remote possibility to stem our enormous national appetite for energy.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 14:46:18 2003
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW    Friday, 14 Feb 03
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:56:40 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 14 Feb 03   Washington, DC
 
1. COLUMBIA: RICHARD FEYNMAN IS NOT ON THE INVESTIGATION BOARD. 
The enduring image of Feynman dropping a piece of the Challenger
O-ring into his glass of ice water is a reminder of how much
things have changed.  Missing from the 11-member Columbia
Accident Investigation Board is independence.  Appointed by NASA
Administrator Sean O'Keefe, all eleven are no doubt capable men,
but ten of the eleven are employees of the federal government. 
Three Air Force Generals are balanced by two Navy Admirals, one
of whom is the Chairman.  Of the three Board members drawn from
NASA, one is responsible for the safety of all NASA programs,
while another is NASA Chief Engineer, responsible for review and
technical readiness of all NASA programs.  The only PhD scientist
is a physicist, James Hallock, from MIT, whose research was for
NASA.  Roger Tetrault, the only private citizen, is the retired
CEO of McDermott International. 
 
2. GREENHOUSE EXTORTION: HOW TO MANDATE "VOLUNTARY" REDUCTIONS. 
To demonstrate that the White House plan to save the world
through voluntary reductions in greenhouse emissions is the way
to go, the administration pressured industry to announce specific
goals for reduction of greenhouse-gas "intensity," which is the
ratio of emissions to production.  The idea is that greenhouse-
gas emission should not grow faster than the economy.  In other
words, its OK to pollute as long as you're making money.  The
White House plan was to go before the American People with Bush
Administration officials arm in arm with industry leaders,
pledging their commitment to "intensity" reductions.  This was to
take place on Wednesday; but with the economy tanking, few
industries went along with it, in spite of the "intensity"
gimmick.  So, what had been planned as a nationwide media blitz
ended up as an announcement in the DOE cafeteria.  
 
3. FY-04 DOE BUDGET: "WE HAVE TO BE REALISTIC," DOMENICI SAYS. 
The $1.2B over 5 years for the hydrogen program (WN 31 Jan 03)
may not sound like the Apollo program, but the Chairman of the
Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Pete Domenici (R-NM),
argues that what's important is that President Bush is behind it,
even if there's not enough money to get the job done.  As David
Garman, an Assistant Secretary for Energy, put it, the President's
commitment is "priceless."  The Energy Efficiency and Renewable
Division would get about $1M more in FY-04, or an increase of
0.1%, with the efficiency side cut by $35M.  We shouldn't rush
into this when Detroit is making money.  The Clean Cities
alternative fuels vehicle program, the Rebuild America building
conservation program and the NICE3 industrial efficiency
technology commercialization program would be cut by a third. 
Science programs would be up 1.4% over the FY-03 request, but
Basic Energy Sciences would be cut $10M.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
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<leave-whatsnew-27231J lists.apsmsgs.org>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 15:18:06 2003
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Subject: Re: Radiation risks put in perspective
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Consider what happened in the recent history of wind power when you put 
>together your best engineers, pick the best site in North America, and 
>spend enormous sums. The federal government's involvement in wind energy 
>research and development began in earnest within two years after the Arab 
>Oil Crisis of 1973. NASA developed the horizontal axis wind turbine, the 
>MOD-0 . . .

This is not "recent history." It is not relevant. This occurred long before 
the development of modern wind energy, which has been done in the private 
sector with little government help. The tax breaks that have been given to 
wind power do not compensate for the much large tax breaks lavished on oil, 
coal and nuclear power.

If you wish to have a serious discussion about the technology, you 
must  look at present-day, private industry development in the last ten 
years, and the last five years in particular. There is no point in 
discussing a totally different set of machines developed in the 1970s. You 
might as well argue that personal computers have no future today because 
the  home computer prototypes developed by IBM in 1970s were unworkable and 
uneconomical. Wind power has made as much progress since 1970 as computers 
have. In fact, modern wind turbines would not work without microcomputer 
controls.


>What did we you get? Cheap pollution-free power for centuries?

Not for centuries: for billions of years, until the sun goes out.


>These new designs were put all over a few deserted hills in California, . . .

Again, these were "new" in the 1970s. This is totally irrelevant to today's 
developments.


>thanks to incredibly generous tax write-offs and now operate now whenever 
>enough wind is available . . .

Wind is always available, on a continent-wide scale. The air warmed by the 
sun has to go somewhere. A collection of wind farms on a grid 1000 km wide 
are as reliable and predictable as a single nuclear power plant that serves 
customers over at 1000 km grid.


>. . . usually at night when the power isn't needed, providing almost zero 
>help to the power outages last winter.

Wind usually blows during the day, not at night. It is caused by solar 
energy. See:

http://www.weatherwise.org/qr/qry.wind.html


>There are so few good sites for these overpriced monstrosities that wind 
>cannot even begin to supply 1% of California's needs.

Actually, by 2000 it supplied 1.2% of California's needs, enough for San 
Francisco. Total CA wind capacity, taking into account the conversion from 
nameplate to actual, is about as much as one mid-sized 800 MWe nuclear 
power plant.

New generation and upcoming wind turbines are far taller than the earlier 
ones, so they capture more wind. They are 1 - 5 MW, compared to the 200 KW 
models that were installed in CA years ago. In other words, potential wind 
"resources" have multiplied by a huge factor, because the turbine blades 
reach higher in the sky, and capture more moving air.


>It is absurd to even mention this tiny source of energy as even a remote 
>possibility to stem our enormous national appetite for energy.

That statement is not in evidence. You cannot simply wave your hand and 
dismiss scientific & engineering studies from the DoE, EPRI and others. You 
cannot dismiss the actual sales and operating performance records. You have 
to present counter-arguments and show why these engineering and economic 
studies by EPRI and others are wrong. Waving your hand and dismissing them 
without giving reasons does not count. Talking about 1970s technology does 
not count. That technology is as obsolete as the 1970 planar core memory 
board I have hanging on my wall.

Worldwide, wind power is now expanding at a rate equivalent to three or 
four average U.S. nuclear power plants per year. (This is taking into 
account conversion factors for actual versus nameplate performance for both 
wind and nuclear plants). This expansion in actual megawatt capacity is 
about as rapid as nuclear energy was in its heyday in the 1960s. In a few 
years, offshore wind will supply 10% of Ireland's electricity. It already 
supplies 18% of the power in Denmark. If present trends continue, by the 
year 2012 there will be more actual wind power worldwide than nuclear power 
in the U.S. (with conversion factors). Offshore installations could easily 
supply all of Europe's electricity without taking up any land area. Until 
1860, offshore wind resources moved millions of tons of goods and millions 
of people per year, in every ocean and sea on earth.

This is formidable technology. If it were developed starting now, in 15 to 
20 years, North Dakota, Kansas, and Texas together could could supply as 
much chemical energy (hydrogen or synthetic hydrocarbons) from wind power 
as Saudi Arabia supplies today in the form of oil. Local fluctuations in 
wind power would make no difference to fuel production. (The production 
rate would fluctuate slightly, just as it does in any oil well or mine.) 
Unless CF is developed, this would earn billions of dollars in revenue. It 
is not done because the fossil fuel industry spreads rumors and false 
information about wind and other alternative energy, and because our 
political leaders are committed to a policy of importing half of our oil -- 
and all of it, 20 or 30 years from now. Jones Beene has parroted some of 
the arguments found on fossil fuel lobbyist web sites, but these arguments 
have no technical merit.

- Jed


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In a message dated 2/14/03 3:45:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com 
writes:


> You know if you keep trying to pit your self against the engineering and 
> academic communities you are never going to be allowed to build anything.  
> If you don't think so just try to build something and see how long it takes 
> for the state engineering boards to hit you with a cease and desist order.

     REPLY     SIR   LISTEN UP     I WAS VERY NICE TO MAIN STREAM SCIENCE AND 
THEY ACTED LIKE  ARROGANT  AS- HOLES    Plus I have contacts on Indian 
reservations  no boards have  any authority there  WHO DO YOU THINK YOU 
PLAYING HERE?  SOME yeahoo like yourself.    NOW  i  deal with with 
billionaires  those clowns your talking about can take a flying leap  they 
are  nobodys .  PLus academic cannot compete  if they cannot explain it    So 
if  we start a school situation  they are out of business. 

THere not god they just told they  were and you were apprarently ignorant 
enought to believe them  BOY did they brainwash you good. i'M TOTALLY SICK 
AND TIRED  OF Eng. LIKE YOU  AND I CAN CRUSH YOUR LITTLE theory  driven world 
 with this new elctrical technology and I will believe me.  .    WHERE DO GET 
of with your attitude?  I create CO's I higher people like you.  I know I 
would not higher you Because you have an elitist attitude   
> 
> If you really want to promote your idea I would think that, instead of 
> trying to insult engineers and academia, you would try to find a way to 
> explain it to them that makes sense. 
REPLY I DID BUT YOU WERE CLUELESS I MADE IT AS SIMPLE AS I COULD  BUT SIMPLE 
MAKES NO SENSE TO YOU   ENG DO NOT HOW TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLE 
  Professional Engineers, like myself, are responsible for the public 
welfare, that's why they have to go through a long 
> process of education, internship, examination and peer review.  Maybe 
> engineers are idiots but it's the best program our society has been able to 
> come up with to keep the schools that house our children from blowing up 
> (Texas started its' Professional Engineering program after a boiler in a 
> school in East Texas blew up killing a bunch of kids). 

     REPLY it is about time we got rid of the yeahoo type engineers  the 
professional engineer test is very difficult to pass. 
> Very engineers can pass it 
> 
> Dan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JCarey9622


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/14/0=
3 3:45:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">You know if you keep trying to=20=
pit your self against the engineering and academic communities you are never=
 going to be allowed to build anything.&nbsp; If you don't think so just try=
 to build something and see how long it takes for the state engineering boar=
ds to hit you with a cease and desist order.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=20=
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REP=
LY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SIR&nbsp;&nbsp; LISTEN UP&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 I WAS VERY NICE TO MAIN STREAM SCIENCE AND THEY ACTED LIKE&nbsp; ARROGANT&n=
bsp; AS- HOLES&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Plus I have contacts on Indian reservations=
&nbsp; no boards have&nbsp; any authority there&nbsp; WHO DO YOU THINK YOU P=
LAYING HERE?&nbsp; SOME yeahoo like yourself.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW&nbsp; i&=
nbsp; deal with with billionaires&nbsp; those clowns your talking about can=20=
take a flying leap&nbsp; they are&nbsp; nobodys .&nbsp; PLus academic cannot=
 compete&nbsp; if they cannot explain it&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So if&nbsp; we st=
art a school situation&nbsp; they are out of business. <BR>
<BR>
THere not god they just told they&nbsp; were and you were apprarently ignora=
nt enought to believe them&nbsp; BOY did they brainwash you good. i'M TOTALL=
Y SICK AND TIRED&nbsp; OF Eng. LIKE YOU&nbsp; AND I CAN CRUSH YOUR LITTLE th=
eory&nbsp; driven world&nbsp; with this new elctrical technology and I will=20=
believe me.&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WHERE DO GET of with your attitude?&nb=
sp; I create CO's I higher people like you.&nbsp; I know I would not higher=20=
you Because you have an elitist attitude&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" F=
ACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If you really want to promote your idea I would think that, instead of tryin=
g to insult engineers and academia, you would try to find a way to explain i=
t to them that makes sense. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
REPLY I DID BUT YOU WERE CLUELESS I MADE IT AS SIMPLE AS I COULD&nbsp; BUT S=
IMPLE MAKES NO SENSE TO YOU&nbsp;&nbsp; ENG DO NOT HOW TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLE=20=
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; Professional Engineer=
s, like myself, are responsible for the public welfare, that's why they have=
 to go through a long </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">process of education, internship, examination and peer revi=
ew.&nbsp; Maybe engineers are idiots but it's the best program our society h=
as been able to come up with to keep the schools that house our children fro=
m blowing up (Texas started its' Professional Engineering program after a bo=
iler in a school in East Texas blew up killing a bunch of kids). </FONT><FON=
T  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REP=
LY it is about time we got rid of the yeahoo type engineers&nbsp; the profes=
sional engineer test is very difficult to pass. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000=
00" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Very engineers can pass it <BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: JCarey9622</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 15:44:01 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1cd.2b0106f.2b7ed8a4 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:41:24 EST
Subject: JED WAITING FOR REPLY FROM YOUR ABOUT A DEVICE THAT IS FOR SALE 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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       THAT PROVES THE FIRST NEW ELECTRICAL THEORY IN ONE CENTURY  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 16:07:45 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <54.a1fecca.2b7ede30 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:05:04 EST
Subject: Re: New something or other
To: t305100 lycos.co.uk, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 2/14/03 6:01:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
t305100 lycos.co.uk writes:


> Mr Carey,
> 
> I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but mother didn't raise a 
> complete idiot either. Now if you or a colleague can explain your 
> ideas in simple terms, (I can explain our current understanding in a 
> way that allows a 10 year old to grasp simple electronic ccts. It 
> gives them something to build on) then perhaps we may begin to grasp 
> your technology.
>         REPLY  IF YOU RECEIVED A  FORMAL TECH. EDU. AND THEY FED YOU FULL 
> OF OF THEORY  AND YOU HAVE NO BASIC  UNDERSTANDING OF HOW SITUATIONS 
> ACTUALLY FUNCTION .  BUT WERE ONLY TOLD HOW THOSE THEORIES SAID THEY SHOULD 
> FUNCTION.     if so THEN YOU WERE TAUGHT TOTALLY BACKWARDS AND IS WHY YOU 
> CANNOT UNDERSTAND ME  

  CURRENT CAN NOW FUNCTION BACKWARDS  FROM THE WAY YOU KNOW MEANING THE NOW 
WASTED 
> ASPECTS ARE CONDUCTING THE VAST MAJORITY OF PREFORMED WORK  INSTEAD OF THE 
> KNOWN ASPECTS     Is that simple enough for you 
> 
> Is there someone in your organisation whose natural language is 
> English? I ask because I can't make head nor tail of 
> your 'communications', & if you do have someone available a trifle 
> more erudite then frankly we would all be better off.
> 
> I do not make my comments with malice, just sheer frustration. You 
> talk a lot, you say very little. I doubt that too many on this list 
> are stupid, (notwithstanding the bell shaped curve) however I doubt 
> that anybody has the first clue as to what you are about. Give us 
> something concrete or pipe down & stop wasting time, surely you have 
> more important things to do.
> 
> Now sir, I suggest the onus is on you, stop telling us what we 
> don't/won't understand, we might surprise you, we may become your 
> most respectful admirers, we might shoot you out of the water. Put up 
> or shut up.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/14/0=
3 6:01:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, t305100 lycos.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Mr Carey,<BR>
<BR>
I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but mother didn't raise a <BR>
complete idiot either. Now if you or a colleague can explain your <BR>
ideas in simple terms, (I can explain our current understanding in a <BR>
way that allows a 10 year old to grasp simple electronic ccts. It <BR>
gives them something to build on) then perhaps we may begin to grasp <BR>
your technology.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; IF YOU RECEIVED A&nbs=
p; FORMAL TECH. EDU. AND THEY FED YOU FULL OF OF THEORY&nbsp; AND YOU HAVE N=
O BASIC&nbsp; UNDERSTANDING OF HOW SITUATIONS ACTUALLY FUNCTION .&nbsp; BUT=20=
WERE ONLY TOLD HOW THOSE THEORIES SAID THEY SHOULD FUNCTION.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; if so THEN YOU WERE TAUGHT TOTALLY BACKWARDS AND IS WHY YOU CANNOT=20=
UNDERSTAND ME&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLO=
R: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQ=
UOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; CURRENT CAN NOW FUNCT=
ION BACKWARDS&nbsp; FROM THE WAY YOU KNOW MEANING THE NOW WASTED </FONT><FON=
T  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">ASPECTS ARE CONDUCTING THE VAST MAJORITY OF PREFORMED WORK&=
nbsp; INSTEAD OF THE KNOWN ASPECTS&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp; Is that simple enough for you <B=
R>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Is there someone in your organisation whose natural language is <BR>
English? I ask because I can't make head nor tail of <BR>
your 'communications', &amp; if you do have someone available a trifle <BR>
more erudite then frankly we would all be better off.<BR>
<BR>
I do not make my comments with malice, just sheer frustration. You <BR>
talk a lot, you say very little. I doubt that too many on this list <BR>
are stupid, (notwithstanding the bell shaped curve) however I doubt <BR>
that anybody has the first clue as to what you are about. Give us <BR>
something concrete or pipe down &amp; stop wasting time, surely you have <BR=
>
more important things to do.<BR>
<BR>
Now sir, I suggest the onus is on you, stop telling us what we <BR>
don't/won't understand, we might surprise you, we may become your <BR>
most respectful admirers, we might shoot you out of the water. Put up <BR>
or shut up.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 17:26:51 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <54.a214b35.2b7ef0d7 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:24:39 EST
Subject: DAN we are the reason GM is adding 1000 ENg. ..
To: alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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     or reassigning them to work on alternative projects.  That is what I was 
told by my contacts at the International UAW in Detroit.    Before I left for 
a West coast Business trip for 3 weeks last June. I know most of the boys 
there.  I first then WE had two meetings with the visionary  DR. Carlton 
Speck.  Delphi's chief scientist 810 257 7412 is his direct no. A ranking 
city official attended the second one in the fall of 2001.

 I have an e mail from Carl stating he did not understand what were science 
fiction level situations he was shown.  But he knew they were real ask him. 
He was basically  shown the next several steps beyond fuel cells, hybrids, 
internal combustion and current EV platforms and was instructed. How to make 
there now obsolete hydrogen propulsion function for free because they were 
using backward theory based think to look at it.  Typical ass backwards 
ignorant thinking GM 

   He also recognized the diagram that they were shown in the early 80's by 
Wayne Cochran. That they spent millions on attempting to dev. But all they 
had to do was pay him a licensing fee and they would have received the rest 
of the info. But were to arrogant to do that. Plus they have the not invented 
here syndrome.  It was a new combustion platform that you could breath the 
exhaust. 

The concept was a six cy. That would have had 8 cy. Power and 4 cy. gas 
mileage.  A 2 cy 4 cy concept  and did not require a converter. Now that 
concept can be a  closed loop situation. and the only residue is clean 
carbon. That your lawn would love.  It is for sale for 500 million. They can 
own it. plus $10 royalty per engine built. Buy them or anyone they license it 
to. We want 100 million up front. And that will also buy first options on our 
far more evolutionary advanced propulsion platforms when they are dev. 
   
     Also in the early 80's they were shown and pimped to an extent the bases 
for what became Magnequench also by Wayne Cochran. There is sealed 
documentation that pre dates there development of it.  Do you know the boys 
at the top who are at REN  CAN ?   If so tell them clowns they cannot compete 
in the market place. 

  They all ready know me. ASK them   They would like to burn me at the stake. 
 Because I made total fools out them when I used Carl's mail to gain 
creditability across the planet  To the point they among many other major 
Multi national corp's from across the planet filed 28 complaints with the 
state of Michigan, saying I was stealing their identity. I guess I went to 
far and questioned there giant ego's. That is when they came unglued and went 
crying to the state.   

When Carl sent me mail about contacting Delphi in Troy.  Tony Lee called me 
he is a Vice President Staff Eng. and he was very evasive on the phone. I 
would to if I realized if I did business with us Delphi would not need 95% of 
there 5400 Engineers.    DAN     WE play  in the Majors,  DO you?   If 
nothing else you know some GM history. That basically no one on the planet 
does. But they do now.  Bend over GM Daddy's home. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 18:22:03 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1de.213f42c.2b7efded aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:20:29 EST
Subject: ENG> need open minds to start       
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In a message dated 2/14/03 7:04:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com 
writes:


> OK.  You've convinced me.  Engineers, and academics are incapable of 
> understanding advanced theories.

>      REPLY NO  i did not say that. 99% of the time they cop an attitude 
> because they have large amounts  of money and time invested in there EDU. 
> Just attempting to explain new concepts  they automatically start  looking 
> at the possible fact they wasted all that money and time. Some take it 
> fairly well. 

BUT most   the arrogant attitude  is the first thing out of their mouth. I'm 
sorry that is my job I'm attempting to create Co.'s  Rocks rolling up hill    
  Actually two hours into presentation  I said > to the Chief Scientist of the 
> Delphi Corp for magnetism to conduct physical work.  It has to be in an 
> electrical induced situation or a rotating type device and he agreed  

   Then I pulled out my visual demo out of my brief case and proved 
stationary magnetism can conduct physical work by making a I in. steel > ball 
> roll up hill at a 15% grade. That proved an evolutionary new theory. Light 
> years beyond phase conversion.  That is when Carl started to stuttered and 
> said Jack your showing me a progression of situations each more advanced 
> and I said Yes Carl I am. At the point in time I could see by the look on 
> his face there was nothing he could steal 

      
> 
> Now why don't you go back to your reservation and practice your witchcraft. 
>  If you come back with rocks rolling up hill I'll be the first one to 
> support you (but not unless your attitude gets better).
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/14/0=
3 7:04:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">OK.&nbsp; You've convinced me.&=
nbsp; Engineers, and academics are incapable of understanding advanced theor=
ies.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY=20=
NO&nbsp; i did not say that. 99% of the time they cop an attitude because th=
ey have large amounts&nbsp; of money and time invested in there EDU. Just at=
tempting to explain new concepts&nbsp; they automatically start&nbsp; lookin=
g at the possible fact they wasted all that money and time. Some take it fai=
rly well. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
BUT most&nbsp;&nbsp; the arrogant attitude&nbsp; is the first thing out of t=
heir mouth. I'm sorry that is my job I'm attempting to create Co.'s&nbsp; Ro=
cks rolling up hill&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Actually two hours into pr=
esentation&nbsp; I said <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000f=
f 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">to the=20=
Chief Scientist of the Delphi Corp for magnetism to conduct physical work.&n=
bsp; It has to be in an electrical induced situation or a rotating type devi=
ce and he agreed&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLO=
CKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Then I pulled o=
ut my visual demo out of my brief case and proved stationary magnetism can c=
onduct physical work by making a I in. steel <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px">ball roll up hill at a 15% grade. That proved an evolutionar=
y new theory. Light years beyond phase conversion.&nbsp; That is when Carl s=
tarted to stuttered and said Jack your showing me a progression of situation=
s each more advanced and I said Yes Carl I am. At the point in time I could=20=
see by the look on his face there was nothing he could steal </FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Now why don't you go back to your reservation and practice your witchcraft.&=
nbsp; If you come back with rocks rolling up hill I'll be the first one to s=
upport you (but not unless your attitude gets better).<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 19:23:47 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:22:19 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: I called you Jack
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>             Jack Carey 810 618 9234  If you do not get it You can talk to the
>Tech. First you will be given an entire new concept concerning electricity. 
>That  basically no Eng. With Formal training only on this planet understands
>at all.    Do you want to see if you can grasp the concept?  Then first
>forget all you were taught about elecricity. Plus throw your books away.  
>You will  have to totally start over  because the new concept replaces all
>you know about electricity.

I tried to call you, but the phone number you posted doesn't work. If 
you can demonstrate the above claim with a watt hour meter and a 
water heater, then the Inventor has done it. Ten years ago I met a 
man at the Tesla Conference who made the same claim. His unit was 
intended to be installed between the meter and the service panel. My 
brother is a licensed Minnesota Electrical Contractor. Since the 
services of such a company would be required in order to install 
these units, we are interested in your claims. I am also interested 
in them from a physics standpoint. The man with the device stopped 
returning my phone calls. In spite of chasing up one dead end after 
another, I'm still at it. There is a basis in physical theory, the 
Active Aether, as expoused by Hal Puthoff and Harold Aspden, which 
explain why such a machine might be possible. If the Inventor is 
willing to submit his machine to such a test, please contact me.

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d8.2b60106.2b7f16a6 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:05:58 EST
Subject: Re: I called you Jack
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In a message dated 2/14/03 10:23:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> I tried to call you, but the phone number you posted doesn't work.
   REPLY    I JUST HAD a  CALL FROM MELBOURNE  on 810 618 9234  you talked  
to the tech . 
  If > 
> you can demonstrate the above claim with a watt hour meter and a 
> water heater, then the Inventor has done it. 
> 
  REPLY  how about  use for what is was intended  run a 3 phase EQ  Or a gen 
that can convert back to single phase  
        the 50 million dollar tech is going to do it that way 
 Ten years ago I met a 
> 
> man at the Tesla Conference who made the same claim. His unit was 
> intended to be installed between the meter and the service panel. My 
> brother is a licensed Minnesota Electrical Contractor. Since the 
> services of such a company would be required in order to install 
> these units, we are interested in your claims.
> 
  Reply they are plug in appliances 

  I am also interested 
> 
> in them from a physics standpoint. The man with the device stopped 
> returning my phone calls. In spite of chasing up one dead end after 
> another, I'm still at it. There is a basis in physical theory, the 
> Active Aether, as expoused by Hal Puthoff and Harold Aspden, which 
> explain why such a machine might be possible. If the Inventor is 
> willing to submit his machine to such a test, please contact me.
> 
>    reply what kind of a test ? call me 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/14/0=
3 10:23:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I tried to call you, but the ph=
one number you posted doesn't work.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"=
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I JUST HAD a&nbsp; CALL FROM MELBOURNE&=
nbsp; on 810 618 9234&nbsp; you talked&nbsp; to the tech . <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; If <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=
=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RI=
GHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
you can demonstrate the above claim with a watt hour meter and a <BR>
water heater, then the Inventor has done it. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; how about&nbsp; use for what is was intended&nbsp; run a=20=
3 phase EQ&nbsp; Or a gen that can convert back to single phase&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the 50 million dollar tech is goi=
ng to do it that way <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> Ten years ago I met a </FON=
T><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
man at the Tesla Conference who made the same claim. His unit was <BR>
intended to be installed between the meter and the service panel. My <BR>
brother is a licensed Minnesota Electrical Contractor. Since the <BR>
services of such a company would be required in order to install <BR>
these units, we are interested in your claims.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; Reply they are plug in appliances <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; I am also interested=20=
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
in them from a physics standpoint. The man with the device stopped <BR>
returning my phone calls. In spite of chasing up one dead end after <BR>
another, I'm still at it. There is a basis in physical theory, the <BR>
Active Aether, as expoused by Hal Puthoff and Harold Aspden, which <BR>
explain why such a machine might be possible. If the Inventor is <BR>
willing to submit his machine to such a test, please contact me.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp; reply what kind of a test ? call me <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <37.340e9bf7.2b7f24e0 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:06:40 EST
Subject: Engineers are dense Bus.types are not 
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In a message dated 2/14/03 7:08:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
georgemurray1 aol.com writes:


> Mr. Carey Sir - Is it your intention to explain rationally what your new 
> found efficient power system is and how it works or to keep us on 
> tenderhooks. I suggest if it is original work that you write it all out and 
> 
> obtain a patent before you expose it to us engineers and entrepreneurs! I 
> can 
> wait because I have lots and lots of patience.
> 
>        THere is not reason to write anything down if demos can be provided. 
  THis SIMPLE to understand  But you need to totally reverse your thinking 
because it is totally backwards is the problem here. Let me give you a clue   
Think invention  first and theory dead last   """  IT uses the wasted kinetic 
energy (frequency's) ""  OK Got that?  aspects of current as the prime power 
providing situations Instead of the known situations    (amps)  OK Got that?  


 IT operates  just the opposite of what science thinks they know. If so now 
they know nothing.  I'm sorry science does not understand. They should have 
studied Tesla, Fafaday, Kaluza, Moray, and Hertz   the phase converter   DEV. 
did.  Where do you think he found the answers in those worthless theory books 
 they use in our EDU system. PLEASE THAT would be insulting him to indicate 
he was that ignorant to use them to learn from. Only FOOLS swallow what is in 
those now worthless books.  

     I do not waste my time on ENG. what for? they are clueless because they 
have no math to understand it. BTDT several times and I have a T shirt to 
prove it.    I do not  need them for anyway. WHAT FOR? All they can say is 
the unit functions as advertised. They are not going to be involved in the 
Bus. aspeacts.     Remember  without math which is all Eng. have  they are 
totally lost.   IF so  DRUM ROLL please for the end of the current scientific 
comm. It is time for them to go the way of the dinosaur.  

As long as it functions as advertised is all that matters. and patents are 
worthless but trademarks are the smart way to go.  There is new math but it 
will not be given out  WHAT FOR?  When visual demos can be provided. If 
science wants to know anymore let them figure it out. If they cannot that is 
the way it goes sometimes.

 It is not my job to EDU. science. My job is to demo a product.       
Business types only care it functions as advertised they do not care how.  
Only science wants to to knowv how?  WHO cares what they want ??     I have 
explained as plain and simple as I can.    


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/14/0=
3 7:08:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, georgemurray1 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Mr. Carey Sir - Is it your inte=
ntion to explain rationally what your new <BR>
found efficient power system is and how it works or to keep us on <BR>
tenderhooks. I suggest if it is original work that you write it all out and=20=
<BR>
obtain a patent before you expose it to us engineers and entrepreneurs! I ca=
n <BR>
wait because I have lots and lots of patience.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THere is not reason to wri=
te anything down if demos can be provided.&nbsp;&nbsp; THis SIMPLE to unders=
tand&nbsp; But you need to totally reverse your thinking because it is total=
ly backwards is the problem here. Let me give you a clue&nbsp;&nbsp; Think i=
nvention&nbsp; first and theory dead last&nbsp;&nbsp; """&nbsp; IT uses the=20=
wasted kinetic energy (frequency's) ""&nbsp; OK Got that?&nbsp; aspects of c=
urrent as the prime power providing situations Instead of the known situatio=
ns&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (amps)&nbsp; OK Got that?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 IT operates&nbsp; just the opposite of what science thinks they know. If so=
 now they know nothing.&nbsp; I'm sorry science does not understand. They sh=
ould have studied Tesla, Fafaday, Kaluza, Moray, and Hertz&nbsp;&nbsp; the p=
hase converter&nbsp;&nbsp; DEV. did.&nbsp; Where do you think he found the a=
nswers in those worthless theory books&nbsp; they use in our EDU system. PLE=
ASE THAT would be insulting him to indicate he was that ignorant to use them=
 to learn from. Only FOOLS swallow what is in those now worthless books.&nbs=
p; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not waste my time on ENG. what for? they are c=
lueless because they have no math to understand it. BTDT several times and I=
 have a T shirt to prove it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not&nbsp; need them for=20=
anyway. WHAT FOR? All they can say is the unit functions as advertised. They=
 are not going to be involved in the Bus. aspeacts.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
Remember&nbsp; without math which is all Eng. have&nbsp; they are totally lo=
st.&nbsp;&nbsp; IF so&nbsp; DRUM ROLL please for the end of the current scie=
ntific comm. It is time for them to go the way of the dinosaur.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
As long as it functions as advertised is all that matters. and patents are w=
orthless but trademarks are the smart way to go.&nbsp; There is new math but=
 it will not be given out&nbsp; WHAT FOR?&nbsp; When visual demos can be pro=
vided. If science wants to know anymore let them figure it out. If they cann=
ot that is the way it goes sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
 It is not my job to EDU. science. My job is to demo a product.&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Business types only care it functions as advertised=20=
they do not care how.&nbsp; Only science wants to to knowv how?&nbsp; WHO ca=
res what they want ??&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have explained as plain and=20=
simple as I can.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_37.340e9bf7.2b7f24e0_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 22:16:03 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <cb.2f9993e0.2b7f34c8 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:14:32 EST
Subject: My only requirement in presenting a new tech.  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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      Gentlemen  Is to prove it is safe and to prove it functions as claimed 
only,  in regard to what it accomplishes.  NOT how it accomplishes the 
Quantum leap futuristic feat.  THAT IS IT PERIOD  Science seems to think I'm 
supposed to tell them how it functions.  Well, they are in for a rude awaking 
this time      Coke has never disclosed their process for 120 years because 
it is the bases for there CO.

 Well, how our new electrical technologies that prove the first new 
electrical theories in a century, are the bases for our CO.  PERIOD   Because 
there is basically zero understanding  about our new totally different 
situations,  as far as main stream science is concerned.   We are going to 
keep it that way. Now they will have something to do because they think they 
know it and now they may know about zero

Because this is only the first dramatic evolutionary change,  there are many 
to come. NOW they will have purpose again and will not have time to stand 
around all day and puff up there ego's like they generally do.  Because once 
they are totally crushed with new evolutionary knowledge they are going to 
have all the can do. Just attempting to figure out all the new situations. 

WE feel science needs to find their own way so they will feel good about 
there possible new achievements, if they reach them. If they do not it was 
not meant to be, is how we see it. Because we had to look beyond what is  
currently taught to find our way. They should have to also. The free lunch 
days so to speak are over with. Learning new and different situations is what 
evolving is all about. Which is what will have to happen if we ever expect to 
evolve as a civilization? Otherwise we will not.    THE IDIOT 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 22:18:13 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17d.16f32a29.2b7f3557 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:16:55 EST
Subject: Re: Tom do you live in Grand Rapids Because i have a one of my      .
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          Direct Electronics  They sell Dish Network 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 23:13:16 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <2d.2af54985.2b7f422d aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:11:41 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Hydrogen facts vs. opinion
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        I recived my info from someone that instructed the world class 
visionary chief scientist of the Delphi/GM  corp.  How to make there now 
obsolete hydrogen propusion function for free. Ignorant GM had the process 
backwards because they were using theory first thinking to look at it .  I 
created and attended those meetings in the fall of 2001  along with a ranking 
city offical and  someone the DOW Corning corp. Once called a living version 
of Nicola Tesla and Einstein. 

 GM's total  cluster you know what emits acidic water vapors that their chief 
scientist agreed with me, on the phone last week was the case. THat is the 
prime problem with hydrogen because that would cause adverse environmental 
damaging acid rain effects. That would be beyond main stream  science's  
current imagnation. 

A joke for you. That is like GOD speaking to Moses. Would main stream science 
and the auto companies like to argure that.?  I will bet my 100,000 ecotic 
Mustic CORBA  Ex national champioship road race car they will lose. Any 
takers?  If so I will have probably the brighest self taught mind on this 
planet bury them and their theories in 20 minutes flat. BTDT  several times 
and I have the T shirt to prove it.  

In the box stone age thinking Ph.d types are our favorite snack before lunch. 
They do not even cause us to burp. But they do cause heart burn from hell. 
Because of all that NOW wothless theory they are full of which is all they 
know. Which is only half of what I call the equation of knowledge. 

 PLUS  they burn like hell when they come out because they are full of 
gasoline. Soon main stream science will be left to fend for themselves in 
what I call the cold dark foreboding sea of ignorance.   THE IDIOT         

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 23:33:53 2003
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:33:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Why ask Fred?
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Fredrick Spaber posted;

>Sorry about the temporary thread shift, Keith and Robin, but, as a 
>late comer to the
>topic I think the gist is to use gamma rays to remediate nuclear wastes?
>
>Evidently most nuclear reactions (fission reactors or decay) produce 
>gammas that peak
>at ~ 5 Mev energy.

Does this have to do with the Brown Photoremediation Process?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 23:34:00 2003
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 <3E4CF2C6.3050502 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:33:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: letter to John Mc Cain
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>      Then there is the matter of the tiles. It appears that they are 
>quite fragile. Part of the cost of operating the shuttle is 
>replacing all 25,000 tiles before each flight. The tiles are 
>necessitated because the vehicle is build of aluminum, instead of 
>titanium.


and Terry Blanton replied;

>
>Makes no difference.  You must keep the heat of reentry away from 
>the craft structure.  You make it of titanium without insulation and 
>you'll cook the astronauts.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've been thinking about the reentry 
vehicle. I think that a bell is the best design. I think that if you 
had jet motors that folded up along side of the bell they could 
survive the reentry. After the parachute deployed the jets would fold 
out into the air stream and fire up.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 23:53:44 2003
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 <000b01c2d473$e73a9960$0a016ea8 cpq>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:53:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Wind machines
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Jed Rothwell wrote in support of wind power " Nuclear power was left 
behind 30 years ago by improvements in other sources  of energy, such 
as wind power. Nuclear power may seem shiny and new, but it is 
actually vacuum tube, prop-plane era 1950s technology."

And Jones Breene responded;


>Oh yes. More breezy rhetoric, Wind power... so simple, so robust, so 
>advanced...
>

Thanks for giving us the other side of the argument Jones. In all 
fairness to wind machines, there have been some significant 
developments in technology in the past 30 years. I have been told 
that the price has been cut in half.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 14 23:53:45 2003
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:53:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: A Cold-Fusion rocket would not have this problem. Right?
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Millenium Twain posted;

>...
>
>Spaceplanes have a LOT more control over re-entry!
>
>The Shuttle was designed for ballastic, fast and hot, re-
>entry.  L/D ratio of 7.  Flies (falls) like a brick!!
>
>See the (better) Sanger (skip-glider) idea from the 1930s.

I'll have to do a google search on that

>
>A good airliner or military aeroshell today, WITHOUT active drag
>negation, has a L/D (lift-to-drag) three or four times better than the
>'Shuttle-Missile', the 'Shuttle-Bomb'.


The airplane is designed to fly, the Shuttle, OTOH, is designed just ot land.

>
>Any spaceplane WITH active drag negation, and thrusting,
>is be able to spread-out the re-entry time -- reduce
>the re-entry heating -- by a factor of five to ten.

True, but how much fuel would be required?

>
>
>Millennium
>
>[Do a web-search under "Space Cub".  If you use re-entry
>retro-thrusting, rather than ballistic heating re-entry,
>then the old steel-and-rivets aeroshells can withstand
>the heat load of re-entry from orbit ...]



>
>Thanks Millenium, I'll do that.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 00:16:46 2003
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:16:08 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: I called you Jack
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--============_-1166825516==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

>In a message dated 2/14/03 10:23:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
>
>>I tried to call you, but the phone number you posted doesn't work.
>>
>
>    REPLY    I JUST HAD a  CALL FROM MELBOURNE  on 810 618 9234  you 
>talked  to the tech .
>   If
>
>>
>>you can demonstrate the above claim with a watt hour meter and a
>>water heater, then the Inventor has done it.
>>
>
>   REPLY  how about  use for what is was intended  run a 3 phase EQ 
>Or a gen that can convert back to single phase 
>         the 50 million dollar tech is going to do it that way



  I don't care how you do it Jack, This is a straight forward 
question, and I would appreciate a straight answer. You power the 
unit from a power source that comes out of a standard watt hour 
meter. The unit's output goes to a water heater. You produce a 
certain number of gallons of water with a certain increase in 
temperature. You total up the number of watts used. Then you total up 
the BTU's which are required to account for the increase in 
temperature of the water. You divide that number by 3157, which is 
the number of BTU's in a K W of electricity. Will that number exceed 
the number of   K W's of electricity used?

The small font that you are using is hard to read. I would appreciate 
it if you would increase it.
--============_-1166825516==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: I called you Jack</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">In a message
dated 2/14/03 10:23:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">I tried to
call you, but the phone number you posted doesn't work.</font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I JUST HAD a&nbsp; CALL FROM
MELBOURNE&nbsp; on 810 618 9234&nbsp; you talked&nbsp; to the tech
.<br>
<font color="#000000">&nbsp; If</font></font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br>
you can demonstrate the above claim with a watt hour meter and a<br>
water heater, then the Inventor has done it.</font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; how about&nbsp; use for what is was intended&nbsp;
run a 3 phase EQ&nbsp; Or a gen that can convert back to single
phase&nbsp;</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the 50
million dollar tech is going to do it that way</font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div>&nbsp;I don't care how you do it Jack, This is a straight forward
question, and I would appreciate a straight answer. You power the unit
from a power source that comes out of a standard watt hour meter. The
unit's output goes to a water heater. You produce a certain number of
gallons of water with a certain increase in temperature. You total up
the number of watts used. Then you total up the BTU's which are
required to account for the increase in temperature of the water. You
divide that number by 3157, which is the number of BTU's in a K W of
electricity. Will that number exceed the number of&nbsp;&nbsp; K W's
of electricity used?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The small font that you are using is hard to read. I would
appreciate it if you would increase it.&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1166825516==_ma============--

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <9f.33d49080.2b7f98e9 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:21:45 EST
Subject: Re: yOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND SIMPLE 
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In a message dated 2/14/2003 6:33:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:


> REPLY I DID BUT YOU WERE CLUELESS I MADE IT AS SIMPLE AS I COULD  BUT SIMPLE 
> MAKES NO SENSE TO YOU   ENG DO NOT HOW TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLE 
> 

That is wrong.  I am a Professional Electrical Engineer and a worked hard to 
get it.  I believe that small DC power plants could have been developed 
without a formal education.  The large power system we have today requires 
trained professionals.  You have to understand things like VARs, watts, per 
unit impedance, and fault currents.  This requires a lot of math.

To move ahead we must understand the past.  My education as a PE did not 
qualify me to do advanced work in physics.  I have to go back and take a 
bunch of physics classes.  I am still not where I need to be.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html">Chapter 10</A> 

Frank  Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/14/2003 6:33:09 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">REPLY I DID BUT YOU WERE CLUELE=
SS I MADE IT AS SIMPLE AS I COULD&nbsp; BUT SIMPLE MAKES NO SENSE TO YOU&nbs=
p;&nbsp; ENG DO NOT HOW TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLE <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
That is wrong.&nbsp; I am a Professional Electrical Engineer and a worked ha=
rd to get it.&nbsp; I believe that small DC power plants could have been dev=
eloped without a formal education.&nbsp; The large power system we have toda=
y requires trained professionals.&nbsp; You have to understand things like V=
ARs, watts, per unit impedance, and fault currents.&nbsp; This requires a lo=
t of math.<BR>
<BR>
To move ahead we must understand the past.&nbsp; My education as a PE did no=
t qualify me to do advanced work in physics.&nbsp; I have to go back and tak=
e a bunch of physics classes.&nbsp; I am still not where I need to be.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html">Chapter 10</A=
> <BR>
<BR>
Frank&nbsp; Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <ca.1801c586.2b7f9b60 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:32:16 EST
Subject: My paper
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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My paper "The elastic limit of space and the Quantum condition" is now going 
through the review process at the University of Florida.  I need a break.  I 
hope they accept it rather than telling me things like, not appropriate or 
science goes in steps.  I'm out of energy.  I can't continue to plead with 
these journals and may just give up.

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">My paper "The elastic limit of space and the Quantum c=
ondition" is now going through the review process at the University of Flori=
da.&nbsp; I need a break.&nbsp; I hope they accept it rather than telling me=
 things like, not appropriate or science goes in steps.&nbsp; I'm out of ene=
rgy.&nbsp; I can't continue to plead with these journals and may just give u=
p.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <117.1f265201.2b7fc294 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 11:19:32 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  Your mail is very fishy tom.  
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In a message dated 2/14/2003 1:25:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622=20
writes:

> REPLY  May I ask what situation places you in a position  to be able to do=
=20
> that. Because your not indicating that  Because you have to be at least a=20
> multi  millionaire bus. type to be able to do that. You cannot make 20=20
> bucks an hr. working for someone else. and be in a position to do that. I'=
m=20
> sorry but any one can say I'm lokking at this and that.

I may be a millionaire soon, though not multimillionaire.  Presently I run=20
several businesses of mine own as listed below, and I am a professional=20
writer under the penname [<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/baron.html">Baron=
 Von Volsung =A9 </A>] at <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com/ba=
ron</A>.  I=20
do not work for anyone else, so I have plenty of time to do research, run=20
businesses, and promote new ideas.  =20

[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">Radiation Health Foundation Trust Co.=20=
=A9</A>] at www.rhfweb.com
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage.html">New Age Productions Inc. =A9=20=
</A>] at www.rhfweb.com/newage
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/no.html">Nutritech Organic Farms =A9 </A>]=
(Main Assets) at www.rhfweb.com/no
        [<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/co.html">Cornucopia Organic Farms=20=
=A9 </A>](Front End Business Activities)
        <A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/investof.html">Investment opportuni=
ties</A>]
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html">Renewable Alternative Energies=20=
=A9 </A>] at www.rhfweb.com/rae
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/vme.html">Volunteers For Peace In The Midd=
le East =A9</A>]
 at www.rhfweb.com/vme
 =20


Many of my businesses are set up as common law private trusts, to allow=20
others to invest in the trusts privately to get them going.  If I get the=20
funds that I am anticipating, I will use them as seed money to start the=20
business venture trusts to get them going and to hire trustees to run the=20
trusts, and to seek donations investments from others to maintain the trusts=
.=20
 Since the trusts are common law trusts, they are exempt from federal laws=20
and regulations, so that the technologies developed may be private and=20
independent of the government and regulations, and the investors may also be=
=20
private and unknown to the general public, which aids in confidentiality of=20
the investors and company products. =20

It would only take about 10,000 dollars to build a new prototype alternative=
=20
energy motor according to my business associates, which may use phase=20
conversion technologies and overunity like the Magnetic Muller Motor.  I hav=
e=20
already met some persons, who will market new alternative energy devices for=
=20
a few thousand dollars over the Internet. I would need about 50,000 dollars=20
to get an alternative energy device built and marketed for sale by the=20
Internet.=20

" He may be giving you an excuse
"

I have been working with my friend for about 1 year and a half on the=20
magnetic Muller type overunity motor and the organic farm technologies, and=20
we had to stop work due to corporate espionage and surveillance being used b=
y=20
the government and international governments to scam our companies and=20
threaten the employees and our business associates, and this is why I have=20
filed a case in US federal court in Grand Rapids, as posted at the <A HREF=
=3D"www.rhfweb.com">
www.rhfweb.com</A> web site under the link http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.=
html,=20
to place a restraining order on the US government and international=20
associates and organizations, from harassing me and my business associates.=20=
 =20
Some of the scamming and harassment  was coming from big oil companies and=20
governments connected with Nigeria, Africa,  and Holland who wanted to=20
prevent us from promoting the magnetic motor idea, and who were using=20
surveillance on our company.  =20

I also have royal ancestry relating me to Christ, and due to the present=20
terrorist attacks on the US based on biblical prophesies, I have gangs, and=20
governments harassing me and may associates, especially business associates=20
daily with surveillance, to prevent me from promoting new technologies with=20
my companies, that I can encourage due to my royal ancestry, which may also=20
be associated with biblical prophesies and relatives of Christ.=20

If I do get a million dollars or near it, I will be hiring some engineers an=
d=20
funding projects for my companies as mentioned above with the money, and I=20
will contact you if this is the case, to see if you may be interested in=20
working on any of the alternative energy projects and greenhouse projects. =20
The greenhouse projects may be enclosed in a vacuum to control and accelerat=
e=20
plant growth under different atmospheric pressures and fluorescent energies,=
=20
and electrical magnetic energies may not be unlimited in a room or greenhous=
e=20
enclosed in a vacuum.   I will need a power source that can work in a sealed=
=20
off vacuum room such as cold fusion.
I thank you for your kind remarks and criticism.


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/14/2003 1:25:33 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">REPLY&nbsp; May I ask what situ=
ation places you in a position&nbsp; to be able to do that. Because your not=
 indicating that&nbsp; Because you have to be at least a multi&nbsp; million=
aire bus. type to be able to do that. You cannot make 20 bucks an hr. workin=
g for someone else. and be in a position to do that. I'm sorry but any one c=
an say I'm lokking at this and that.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
I may be a millionaire soon, though not multimillionaire.&nbsp; Presently I=20=
run several businesses of mine own as listed below, and I am a professional=20=
writer under the penname [<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/baron.html">Baron=
 Von Volsung =A9 </A>] at <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com/ba=
ron</A>.&nbsp; I do not work for anyone else, so I have plenty of time to do=
 research, run businesses, and promote new ideas.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">Radiation Health Foundation Trust Co.=20=
=A9</A>] at www.rhfweb.com<BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage.html">New Age Productions<B> Inc.=20=
=A9</B> </A>] at www.rhfweb.com/newage<BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/no.html">Nutritech Organic Farms =A9 </A>]=
(Main Assets) at www.rhfweb.com/no<BR>
        [<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/co.html">Cornucopia Organic Farms=20=
=A9 </A>](Front End Business Activities)<BR>
        <A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/investof.html">Investment opportuni=
ties</A>]<BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html">Renewable Alternative Energies=20=
=A9 </A>] at www.rhfweb.com/rae<BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/vme.html">Volunteers For Peace In The Midd=
le East <B>=A9</A></B></B>]<BR>
 at www.rhfweb.com/vme<BR>
&nbsp;=20
<BR>
<BR>
Many of my businesses are set up as common law private trusts, to allow othe=
rs to invest in the trusts privately to get them going.&nbsp; If I get the f=
unds that I am anticipating, I will use them as seed money to start the busi=
ness venture trusts to get them going and to hire trustees to run the trusts=
, and to seek donations investments from others to maintain the trusts.&nbsp=
; Since the trusts are common law trusts, they are exempt from federal laws=20=
and regulations, so that the technologies developed may be private and indep=
endent of the government and regulations, and the investors may also be priv=
ate and unknown to the general public, which aids in confidentiality of the=20=
investors and company products.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It would only take about 10,000 dollars to build a new prototype alternative=
 energy motor according to my business associates, which may use phase conve=
rsion technologies and overunity like the Magnetic Muller Motor.&nbsp; I hav=
e already met some persons, who will market new alternative energy devices f=
or a few thousand dollars over the Internet. I would need about 50,000 dolla=
rs to get an alternative energy device built and marketed for sale by the In=
ternet. <BR>
<BR>
" He may be giving you an excuse<BR>
"<BR>
<BR>
I have been working with my friend for about 1 year and a half on the magnet=
ic Muller type overunity motor and the organic farm technologies, and we had=
 to stop work due to corporate espionage and surveillance being used by the=20=
government and international governments to scam our companies and threaten=20=
the employees and our business associates, and this is why I have filed a ca=
se in US federal court in Grand Rapids, as posted at the <A HREF=3D"www.rhfw=
eb.com">www.rhfweb.com</A> web site under the link http://www.rhfweb.com/nsa=
govcase.html, to place a restraining order on the US government and internat=
ional associates and organizations, from harassing me and my business associ=
ates.&nbsp;&nbsp; Some of the scamming and harassment&nbsp; was coming from=20=
big oil companies and governments connected with Nigeria, Africa,&nbsp; and=20=
Holland who wanted to prevent us from promoting the magnetic motor idea, and=
 who were using surveillance on our company.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I also have royal ancestry relating me to Christ, and due to the present ter=
rorist attacks on the US based on biblical prophesies, I have gangs, and gov=
ernments harassing me and may associates, especially business associates dai=
ly with surveillance, to prevent me from promoting new technologies with my=20=
companies, that I can encourage due to my royal ancestry, which may also be=20=
associated with biblical prophesies and relatives of Christ. <BR>
<BR>
If I do get a million dollars or near it, I will be hiring some engineers an=
d funding projects for my companies as mentioned above with the money, and I=
 will contact you if this is the case, to see if you may be interested in wo=
rking on any of the alternative energy projects and greenhouse projects.&nbs=
p; The greenhouse projects may be enclosed in a vacuum to control and accele=
rate plant growth under different atmospheric pressures and fluorescent ener=
gies, and electrical magnetic energies may not be unlimited in a room or gre=
enhouse enclosed in a vacuum.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will need a power source that ca=
n work in a sealed off vacuum room such as cold fusion.<BR>
I thank you for your kind remarks and criticism.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <11b.1e424e04.2b7fca8a aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 11:53:30 EST
Subject: Re: Thugs, gangs and o-u motors
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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In a message dated 2/14/2003 2:13:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> I do not believe this. Many people have made similar claims, but I have 
> never seen convincing evidence for them.

I have the faxes, phone calls, and receipts of one of the attacks against our 
company from oil companies from Nigeria, which was reported to the Attorney 
General. Another case to stop international espionage by governments and 
companies on our companies is presently in US federal court. 

Some of the harassment is coming from the underworld also, and these 
individuals cannot be sued in court.  My friend had to stop work due to many 
hospital bills. 
I do have a person who can market the alternative energy product as you 
suggest also.  I thank you for your offer.  If I get the device funded, built 
and running, I may contact you also. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/14/2003 2:13:33 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I do not believe this. Many peo=
ple have made similar claims, but I have <BR>
never seen convincing evidence for them.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have the faxes, phone calls, and receipts of one of the attacks against ou=
r company from oil companies from Nigeria, which was reported to the Attorne=
y General. Another case to stop international espionage by governments and c=
ompanies on our companies is presently in US federal court. <BR>
<BR>
Some of the harassment is coming from the underworld also, and these individ=
uals cannot be sued in court.&nbsp; My friend had to stop work due to many h=
ospital bills. <BR>
I do have a person who can market the alternative energy product as you sugg=
est also.&nbsp; I thank you for your offer.&nbsp; If I get the device funded=
, built and running, I may contact you also. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_11b.1e424e04.2b7fca8a_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 09:27:38 2003
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Message-ID: <000d01c2d517$475aeae0$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Old and new items
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:25:46 -0500
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My, what a thrilling ride on Vortex this past week or so.  My basic notions
of physics and phonics have been turned upside down.  Almost makes what I
have to report seem VERY inadequate.

But shucks, here goes:

First the old news- back in the late fall I had reported on a claim from a
firm in Toledo that a low powered laser beam had produced a physical
deflection of a unique RF atmospheric plasma jet.  I felt that if this was
so, then it represented (potentially) a new and unexplained electrodynamic
effect.  A very long delay occurred, due to holidays, vacations, and
schedules.  However about three weeks ago, I was finally able to participate
in some controlled testing of the claim.  We attempted to fire a 5mW HeNe, a
10mW frequency doubled YAG, and a 3 mW 670nm red diode laser into the path
of the Energystics plasma jet.  Many angles and orientations were tried, but
the short answer was that NO anomalous deflections of any sort were
observed.  We concluded that the original observations may have been of
inadvertent movement of the jet due to air currents stirred up by the
operator's hand.  So this would appear to finally put the matter to bed for
now.  Darn.  It would have been something.

Now for the new:

As reported late last year, I had continued to examine transient milligram
level weight changes in chiroptical materials such as alpha quartz,
tourmaline, sugar and L-tartaric acid.  Since the first of this year, I had
corresponded with writer and theorist Al Schwartz regarding parallels
between my own observations and the  chiral equivalence principle violations
discussed in his extensive paper http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
Al remains respectfully convinced that what I have been seeing is probably
some other effect or artifact, as his predictions would say that the
gravitational interactions of chiral materials would be far less detectable
than the milligram range.  (Requiring an Eotvos experiment or Cavendish
balance)  On the other hand, I remain the empiricist, and have continued to
see repeatable low level effects that do seem to be related to the
accelerated chiral materials.  This past week, I proceeded with some initial
"shake and weigh" testing using paratellurite (TeO2) powder.  TeO2 is an
extremely chiral material also used in single crystal form for nonlinear
laser optics.  Sodium line optical rotatory power is said to be about a 100
degrees per millimeter, with over 1000 degrees per mm noted at cutoff in the
UV.  The results with shake and weigh TeO2 have been dramatic - typically
between three and five times the level of transient weight changes seen with
equivalent masses of sugar or SiO2.  In a couple of runs, the transient
weight change was around 10 milligrams for a 20 gram quantity of powder in a
sealed glass ampoule, returning to a null weight within about 3 to 5
minutes.  Interestingly, Al Schwartz ran some numbers for chirality and
parity properties of TeO2 and found it to be lagging behind single crystal
Te and Se, but not by much.  It puts it in about third place of "anomaly
readiness" for all known or studied chiral lattices or compounds.  What I
have seen seems to agree with "numbers versus weight change magnitude",
despite Al's opinion that I am seeing a different effect.

I recently placed an order through Almaz Optics in New Jersey for a set of
right and left handed paratellurite crystals of 1 cubic centimeter volume.
Delivery will be in about 6 weeks, then the next round of fun will begin!
It was a trade off in a way - single crystal tellurium would technically be
better, but due to difficulties in CZ or Bridgeman growing, the price was
about an order of magnitude higher than for the chiroptical TeO2.

So there we are good gentlemen, dangling ends and new adventures.  Twisting
the vacuum with a vengeance.  I even spell checked it!

Perovskites,

NR



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 09:42:53 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17d.16f94cf0.2b7fd574 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:40:04 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Engineers are dense So details please
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In a message dated 2/15/03 3:42:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
georgemurray1 aol.com writes:

         THIS REQUIRES A PHONE CONVERSATION  MY NO. IS 810 618 9234 USA or=20
send me yours in England  or where ever   Some background  Sterling=20
Publications in London There the Mc Graw Hill of Europe  Called   me out of=20
the blue from one of my mails that someone I do not know sent them and spoke=
=20
with me for 3 hours last year.

 AS first they were selling their advertisement in their publications Then=20
they wanted to invest on the side with their own Quid and Publish. They=20
called back but did not reach the late DEV> Then after I told all the big=20
Corp's they were interested they all of a sudden got cold feet all together.=
=20

  A phone call is in order  to reach basic understandings if possible becaus=
e=20
your using conventional knowledge in an attempt to evaluate. Concepts and=20
operational aspects for something that does not presently exist in regard to=
=20
current understandings. I see you understand starting out in a garage.  WE=20
will manuf. and  You can manuf. minor aspects to start wherever with=20
licensing agreements and we would send the heart that has self destroying =20
anti reverse engineering aspects built in =20

We are going to create protected economy situations with new concepts that=20
make sense by having say you Manuf. in your country and only sell in your=20
country only. The same would apply to say Ireland. This is a tinker toy to u=
s=20
compared to what is next  but is the next step in evolution of electrical=20
conservation and major to the rest of the world. Because of the drastic=20
reduction in usage factors it causes.

 By using the entire aspect of each unit of electricity is draws instead of=20
currently where the majority of a unit of current is not used and wasted as=20
heat loss.  Simple we eliminate the heat loss factor with a conversion=20
process that is far simpler to describe as far as the concept over the phone=
.=20
But will attempt here. in simple terms.=20

THINK of a cube of natural gas and the fact you can burn it at 99% the same=20
theory now applies to a unit of electricity. Because this new process of=20
conversion that is tesla and faraday inspired is so complex it is not=20
important as long as the conversion can be accomplished.

 That is the only thing Business cares about. WE do not have time to teach=20
science how to reverse their thinking processes  You not going to get what=20
you want. Unless you figure out that for yourself. This may be the=20
opportunity of a lifetime.          =20
> Ok, so you are a salesman.
> Sorry, I should have said
> .namselas a era uoy os ,kO
> So can you please tell me the following, brief statements will suffice, I=20
> dont want you give away your secrets at this stage.
> 1. What is the power output of this machine? Can it be enlarged to base=20
> power=20
> load sizes, ie Megawatts? Gigawatts?
   =20
      =20

> 2. What is the power to weight ratio?
      N/A


> 3. What is the overall energy conversion ratio, ie energy in, power out?=20
    REPLY  over the phone Or call the Tech at 810 701 9432=20


> 4. Durability? How many hours do you expect between overhauls?
       Reply  over the phone . =20


> 5. Has or will it pass all the environmental controls, ie EMC emissions,=20
> noise, vibration, gaseous emissions?

     reply yes  Phase conversion is off the shelf technology that has been=20
modified  Self contained DC to AC is to  but the prototype is not completed=20=
=20
but the 50 million dollar tech. center saw it under construction  and is a=20
totally different tech. but produces A/C =20

 The next step  that functions theoretically is the 23 ND century and is=20
basically perpetual motion and scaled up will operate  dynos at electric=20
generating Companies or a generator to operate your house.   The next one=20
after that has been seen by a major corp. operational is the 23 rd century=20
also and is an inter active field situation    The next is a Magnetic reacto=
r=20
Diode. At this time that it is 10 century's away and should be operational b=
y=20
2020. The next step is 20 century's away and will be on line by 2030. I do=20
not know what that one is.=20

 The next step is 30 century's away currently I will call that one for 2050.=
=20
I do not know what that one is either.  I cannot project beyond that point=20
BECAUSE MATERIAL AVAILABILITY WILL HAVE TO COME FROM OTHER planets to cause=20
some situations to occur. Because We only have about 5% of the known=20
materials that are in the universe.   As I said phase conversion is a totall=
y=20
obsolete tinker toy. This is all totally factual.    I care less if you=20
believe it or not.  I just did this for overview purposes. So possibly you=20
begin to grasp the scope of our capabilities. =20

You have one in England that was used in regard to Stone Hedge  that is Blue=
=20
Stone or Lode Stone that came I think from a Quarry in Ireland that I need a=
=20
sample of. If possible. Please understand England was once in a polar region=
=20
as was Florida.  The material has proprieties we want to investigate as we=20
have the Corral from Florida we have looked at. =20

> 6. Will you bring on board a large experienced manufacturer to help you=20
> build=20
> these, or like many entreprenurial organisations, start manufacture in you=
r=20
>=20
> own garage and sheds like I did?
   REPLY  Both situations =20


> 7. What is your projected cost $(=A3) per kilowatt (Megawatt)?
         Reply   You need understanding first You will possibly achive that=20
over the phone=20


> 8. When do you expect to produce the first production units?
       REPLY they all ready exist as  pre production units. In 1975 the DEV.=
=20
had a 9 bay body shop and was paying 1500.US a month for electricity and was=
=20
able to reduce it to 120. US   THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD. AS YOU KNOW I=
T=20
   =20
     =20

> Where can I get one of your T-shirts, can you tell me how much and the=20
> postage cost to England, I would really love one?
   REPLY THAT IS A JOKE.   A limey with a sense of humor you do not find tha=
t=20
to often Another joke .  Actually it is Americans in main stream science tha=
t=20
do not have  sense of humor=20


> 9. Finally, and most importantly, even though we really dont care how it=20
> works, could you please briefly tell us all how it works, a) so that=20
> business=20
> men can understand it and be persuaded to buy it and b) so that engineers=20
> can=20
> understand it and want to build it. Please dont leave us in this dense=20
> undergrowth. I think we're all struggling with this new backwards thinking=
=20
> technology.
>      REPLY   OVER THE PHONE IF YOU CANNOT GRASP WHAT i HAVE SAID. Because=20=
i=20
> have attempted to. But I'm a non Tech.  WE will control Mauf. or if you do=
=20
> you will have to meet our standards. or lose your license if you do not.=20
> But we have no control over you and your operations are your show that you=
=20
> have to create. We have no competition on the planet. Considering what we=20
> can accomplish. That we know of.

  And considering A/C is the dominate power providing situation there is and=
=20
now usage factors can be reduced  say=20
> 75%. Science cannot begin to grasp the magnitude of an occurrence at that=20
> level. Our thinking is correct science is backwards. Because ours works=20
> theirs does not.   A previous send out is attached  that may help you to=20
> BUT the main thing is you have to discard current  taught science=20
> understanding=20
> In a message dated 15/02/03 05:07:42 GMT Standard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com=
=20
> writes:
>=20
> REPLY   Now  with a new phase conversion process. The currently not used=20
> wasted  kinetic energy (frequency's)  that are all ready contained in the=20
> delivery process from the grid,  conducts the vast majority of work=20
> performed. Whereas in your world Amps are the prime power providers.=20

  As far as I know  This is totally opposite of what you know.  So now you=20
use 75% less of the flow than you would normally require for any given >=20
> situation. Considering A/C current is the absolute dominate power providin=
g=20
> situation on the planet. It would basically boggle the mind to even start=20
> to grasp the world changing effects this new situation could create. The=20
> business opportunity this presents can barley be imagined unless your a=20
> stone cold futuristic thinking visionary.   =20

SIMPLE   Your charged for flow now the flow is fully utilized. So now you us=
e=20
far less flow. It is called high EFF>  Please forget Over Unity  > thinking=20
> PERIOD >   Because that thinking creates a giant counter productive theory=
=20
> based roadblock. You cannot evolve unless you do.   If so basically all of=
=20
> current electrical thinking is totally obsolete. Plus the earth which is=20
> the biggest battery there is provides free electrons. Because it is=20
> bombarded with Neutrinos that are emitted by stars. Which lets say mix in=20
> with the magnetic flux and plasma fields that are being created during the=
=20
> conversion process.=20


    The new equation the first new in a century ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT=20
CREATING AN EMF"" Explains why=20
> >> operational motors never reached a Temp. that is 10 Deg. above room Tem=
p.=20
>> Because the current power loss factor is being eliminated.    3 phase=20
>> motors like cold surrounding Temp.
>=20

     This new process creates a situation where they do not. Again that is=20
totally opposite of current knowledge of the=20
> >> operational aspects of electricity. Now you know why main stream in the=
=20
>> box thinking science is totally clueless? Because they have no math to=20
>> explain this new process. Without that they are totally lost. Because mat=
h=20
>> is all they have to explain electricity. =20
>=20

        Now possibly you have a complete new evolutionary futuristic concept=
=20
understanding of electricity.  But I'm not holding my breath that you do. Th=
e=20
> greasiest of them all Nicola Tesla said if we ever fully understand=20
> electricity , then and only then will we know something. He was correct as=
=20
> he was also correct when he said. It is far easier to use an atom than wha=
t=20
> Einstein said,  which was incorrect when he promoted splitting them.=20


     >  If science expects to attempt to understand concepts on this basical=
ly=20
> science fiction level.  They will have to first totally reverse their=20
> current thoery first thinking processes. FAT chance that will ever happen.=
=20
> Please excuse the poor grammar and sentence structure no one is perfect.=20
>   =20





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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/15/0=
3 3:42:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, georgemurray1 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THIS REQUIRES A PHONE CONVE=
RSATION&nbsp; MY NO. IS 810 618 9234 USA or send me yours in England&nbsp; o=
r where ever&nbsp;&nbsp; Some background&nbsp; Sterling Publications in Lond=
on There the Mc Graw Hill of Europe&nbsp; Called&nbsp;&nbsp; me out of the b=
lue from one of my mails that someone I do not know sent them and spoke with=
 me for 3 hours last year.<BR>
<BR>
 AS first they were selling their advertisement in their publications Then t=
hey wanted to invest on the side with their own Quid and Publish. They calle=
d back but did not reach the late DEV&gt; Then after I told all the big Corp=
's they were interested they all of a sudden got cold feet all together. <BR=
>
<BR>
&nbsp; A phone call is in order&nbsp; to reach basic understandings if possi=
ble because your using conventional knowledge in an attempt to evaluate. Con=
cepts and operational aspects for something that does not presently exist in=
 regard to current understandings. I see you understand starting out in a ga=
rage.&nbsp; WE will manuf. and&nbsp; You can manuf. minor aspects to start w=
herever with licensing agreements and we would send the heart that has self=20=
destroying&nbsp; anti reverse engineering aspects built in&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We are going to create protected economy situations with new concepts that m=
ake sense by having say you Manuf. in your country and only sell in your cou=
ntry only. The same would apply to say Ireland. This is a tinker toy to us c=
ompared to what is next&nbsp; but is the next step in evolution of electrica=
l conservation and major to the rest of the world. Because of the drastic re=
duction in usage factors it causes.<BR>
<BR>
 By using the entire aspect of each unit of electricity is draws instead of=20=
currently where the majority of a unit of current is not used and wasted as=20=
heat loss.&nbsp; Simple we eliminate the heat loss factor with a conversion=20=
process that is far simpler to describe as far as the concept over the phone=
. But will attempt here. in simple terms. <BR>
<BR>
THINK of a cube of natural gas and the fact you can burn it at 99% the same=20=
theory now applies to a unit of electricity. Because this new process of con=
version that is tesla and faraday inspired is so complex it is not important=
 as long as the conversion can be accomplished.<BR>
<BR>
 That is the only thing Business cares about. WE do not have time to teach s=
cience how to reverse their thinking processes&nbsp; You not going to get wh=
at you want. Unless you figure out that for yourself. This may be the opport=
unity of a lifetime.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Ok, so you are a salesman.<BR>
Sorry, I should have said<BR>
.namselas a era uoy os ,kO<BR>
So can you please tell me the following, brief statements will suffice, I <B=
R>
dont want you give away your secrets at this stage.<BR>
1. What is the power output of this machine? Can it be enlarged to base powe=
r <BR>
load sizes, ie Megawatts? Gigawatts?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">2. What is the power to weight=20=
ratio?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI=
ZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; N/A<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">3. What is the overall energy c=
onversion ratio, ie energy in, power out? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; over the phone Or call the Tech at 810 701 94=
32 <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">4. Durability? How many hours d=
o you expect between overhauls?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACK=
GROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"=
0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp; over the phone .&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">5. Has or will it pass all the=20=
environmental controls, ie EMC emissions, <BR>
noise, vibration, gaseous emissions?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reply yes&nbsp; Phase conversion is off the shelf t=
echnology that has been modified&nbsp; Self contained DC to AC is to&nbsp; b=
ut the prototype is not completed&nbsp; but the 50 million dollar tech. cent=
er saw it under construction&nbsp; and is a totally different tech. but prod=
uces A/C&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 The next step&nbsp; that functions theoretically is the 23 ND century and i=
s basically perpetual motion and scaled up will operate&nbsp; dynos at elect=
ric generating Companies or a generator to operate your house.&nbsp;&nbsp; T=
he next one after that has been seen by a major corp. operational is the 23=20=
rd century also and is an inter active field situation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The=
 next is a Magnetic reactor Diode. At this time that it is 10 century's away=
 and should be operational by 2020. The next step is 20 century's away and w=
ill be on line by 2030. I do not know what that one is. <BR>
<BR>
 The next step is 30 century's away currently I will call that one for 2050.=
 I do not know what that one is either.&nbsp; I cannot project beyond that p=
oint BECAUSE MATERIAL AVAILABILITY WILL HAVE TO COME FROM OTHER planets to c=
ause some situations to occur. Because We only have about 5% of the known ma=
terials that are in the universe.&nbsp;&nbsp; As I said phase conversion is=20=
a totally obsolete tinker toy. This is all totally factual.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; I care less if you believe it or not.&nbsp; I just did this for overview p=
urposes. So possibly you begin to grasp the scope of our capabilities.&nbsp;=
 <BR>
<BR>
You have one in England that was used in regard to Stone Hedge&nbsp; that is=
 Blue Stone or Lode Stone that came I think from a Quarry in Ireland that I=20=
need a sample of. If possible. Please understand England was once in a polar=
 region as was Florida.&nbsp; The material has proprieties we want to invest=
igate as we have the Corral from Florida we have looked at.&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">6. Will you bring on board a la=
rge experienced manufacturer to help you build <BR>
these, or like many entreprenurial organisations, start manufacture in your=20=
<BR>
own garage and sheds like I did?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Both situations&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">7. What is your projected cost=20=
$(=A3) per kilowatt (Megawatt)?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACK=
GROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"=
0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; You need=20=
understanding first You will possibly achive that over the phone <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">8. When do you expect to produc=
e the first production units?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY they all ready exist as&nbsp; pre=
 production units. In 1975 the DEV. had a 9 bay body shop and was paying 150=
0.US a month for electricity and was able to reduce it to 120. US&nbsp;&nbsp=
; THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD. AS YOU KNOW IT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Where can I get one of your T-s=
hirts, can you tell me how much and the <BR>
postage cost to England, I would really love one?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY THAT IS A JOKE.&nbsp;&nbsp; A limey with a sense of humor=
 you do not find that to often Another joke .&nbsp; Actually it is Americans=
 in main stream science that do not have&nbsp; sense of humor <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">9. Finally, and most importantl=
y, even though we really dont care how it <BR>
works, could you please briefly tell us all how it works, a) so that busines=
s <BR>
men can understand it and be persuaded to buy it and b) so that engineers ca=
n <BR>
understand it and want to build it. Please dont leave us in this dense <BR>
undergrowth. I think we're all struggling with this new backwards thinking <=
BR>
technology.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; OVER THE PHONE IF YOU CANNOT GRAS=
P WHAT i HAVE SAID. Because i have attempted to. But I'm a non Tech.&nbsp; W=
E will control Mauf. or if you do you will have to meet our standards. or lo=
se your license if you do not. But we have no control over you and your oper=
ations are your show that you have to create. We have no competition on the=20=
planet. Considering what we can accomplish. That we know of.</FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; And considering A/C i=
s the dominate power providing situation there is and now usage factors can=20=
be reduced&nbsp; say </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">75%. Science cannot begin to grasp the magnitude of an occu=
rrence at that level. Our thinking is correct science is backwards. Because=20=
ours works theirs does not.&nbsp;&nbsp; A previous send out is attached&nbsp=
; that may help you to BUT the main thing is you have to discard current&nbs=
p; taught science understanding <BR>
In a message dated 15/02/03 05:07:42 GMT Standard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com <=
BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Now&nbsp; with a new phase conversion process. The current=
ly not used wasted&nbsp; kinetic energy (frequency's)&nbsp; that are all rea=
dy contained in the delivery process from the grid,&nbsp; conducts the vast=20=
majority of work performed. Whereas in your world Amps are the prime power p=
roviders. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; As far as I know&nbsp; This is totally opposite of what you know.&nbs=
p; So now you use 75% less of the flow than you would normally require for a=
ny given <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MA=
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">situation. Considering=
 A/C current is the absolute dominate power providing situation on the plane=
t. It would basically boggle the mind to even start to grasp the world chang=
ing effects this new situation could create. The business opportunity this p=
resents can barley be imagined unless your a stone cold futuristic thinking=20=
visionary.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<B>SIMPLE&nbsp;</B>&nbsp; Your charged for flow now the flow is fully utiliz=
ed. So now you use far less flow. It is called high EFF&gt;&nbsp; Please for=
get Over Unity&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2=
px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">thinking <=
B>PERIOD&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #00=
00ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></B>=
&nbsp; Because that thinking creates a giant counter productive theory based=
 roadblock. You cannot evolve unless you do.&nbsp;&nbsp; If so basically all=
 of current electrical thinking is totally obsolete. Plus the earth which is=
 the biggest battery there is provides free electrons. Because it is bombard=
ed with Neutrinos that are emitted by stars. Which lets say mix in with the=20=
magnetic flux and plasma fields that are being created during the conversion=
 process. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The new equation the first new in a century ""<B>ELECTRON=
 FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF</B>"" Explains why <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px">operational motors never reached a Temp. that is 10 Deg. abo=
ve room Temp. Because the current power loss factor is being eliminated.&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 phase motors like cold surrounding Temp.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This new process creates a situation where they do=20=
not. Again that is totally opposite of current knowledge of the <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px">operational aspects of electricity. Now you know why main st=
ream in the box thinking science is totally clueless? Because they have no m=
ath to explain this new process. Without that they are totally lost. Because=
 math is all they have to explain electricity.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now possibly you have a complete=20=
new evolutionary futuristic concept understanding of electricity.&nbsp; But=20=
I'm not holding my breath that you do. The <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"=
BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING=
-LEFT: 5px">greasiest of them all Nicola Tesla said if we ever fully underst=
and electricity , then and only then will we know something. He was correct=20=
as he was also correct when he said. It is far easier to use an atom than wh=
at Einstein said,&nbsp; which was incorrect when he promoted splitting them.=
 </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=20=
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">=20=
If science expects to attempt to understand concepts on this basically scien=
ce fiction level.&nbsp; They will have to first totally reverse their curren=
t thoery first thinking processes. FAT chance that will ever happen. Please=20=
excuse the poor grammar and sentence structure no one is perfect. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:24:21 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: What does wind energy really cost?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Most of us would love to have windpower if we could afford it. It is so =
sensible and so environmentally sound, it will seduce almost any =
committed alternative-energy advocate. I, for one, would make a large =
personal sacrifices to have it, up to a point. So what does it really =
cost?=20

Forget the "special interest" or "misinformed commentator" propaganda =
that you may be exposed to. Can you go to a dealer, contractor, or store =
to find out how much you need to make the check out for?=20

Or what about info from an advocacy magazine like Windpower Monthly or =
even EREN, the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, the US =
Department of Energy's premier resource for information about renewable =
energy and energy efficiency technologies?

In a word, NO.=20

Is this lack of good public information on wind energy costs related to =
why, after the recent energy crisis in California, so little =
consideration was given to adding additional wind stations at the grid =
level?  It should have been very quick and easy to add wind turbines, if =
it were really practical. The connections to the grid were in place, the =
urgency was critical, the Sierra club was active. Why then dozens of new =
gas fired plants and so few additional wind power units?

It turns out that it wasn't that the cost was just too outrageous, which =
it was, it also involves the scarcity of good sites for commercial =
installations. The  Tehachapi Pass and San Gorgonio Pass are almost =
maxed out with turbines and many other good sites are in federally =
protected areas and parks, where wildlife would be affected. The San =
Gorgonio Pass, which is among the premier sites in the USA for =
windpower, uses approximately 10 times more land per yearly kwh produced =
than does the San Onofre nuclear station - and land acquisition cost is =
at a great premium here.

Most states, it seems, would rather see the individual or corporation =
bear the brunt of the land cost for wind energy. And the advocacy groups =
want to only give you nebulous "after tax" costs or projected costs =
based on what the Europeans say it costs over there. Unlike nuclear, =
coal or other grid-energy solutions, there is little "economy of scale" =
with wind energy. Bigger is not better. In fact, due to problems of grid =
integration and energy storage, wind energy is almost as economical at =
the residential or small neighborhood level, unless it is greatly =
subsidized by the local utility.=20

So why it so hard to get an actual quote? I started doing this several =
days ago, after reading Rothwell's first post on wind energy and =
wondering if he was not being misled on the actual figures. In general, =
contractors that claim to have first hand experience with wind =
installations don't want to give out quotes over the phone- perhaps they =
are too embarrassed to give a firm quotation to an individual (they =
might be more forthcoming if you are a well-heeled corporation and can =
stand the "sticker shock").

Bergey Windpower Co. from Oklahoma is the nation's leading supplier of =
residential wind turbines and, in fact, the world's leading supplier of =
small wind turbines. They have been manufacturing small wind turbines =
since 1980 and now have over 1,600 installations in all 50 U.S. states =
and more than 80 countries. They are considered the best.

Bergey offers a 5 year warranty on all their turbines - no other =
manufacturer comes near this. But if you peruse the homepower wind =
energy newsgroups you will see that maintenance is a huge and expensive =
issue, even with Bergey turbines, one that is seldom even considered by =
the unsuspecting off-the-grid homeowner at the start, although it should =
be, as the warranties on these things are minimal and the reliability is =
far less than you would expect.

What does it cost for a homeowner to add a Bergey windmill to his farm =
or residence to supply his total power needs, assuming the home is =
fortunate enough to be located in one of the approximately 10% of =
residential locations which is sited so as to get enough of a breeze to =
get adequate utilization - without raising too much ire among the =
neighbors?

This is where you start hearing the ughs and ahs, because they can't =
supply you with a turnkey system that will keep you supplied 24/7 =
guaranteed (at least not here in California). The solar energy people =
will do it but not the wind energy contractors. If the wind dies off for =
several days at a time, then sorry, you are up that proverbial creek. =
They will sell you a system that still requires you to be grid =
connected, or they will install a battery back up made by another =
manufacturer, but they will not assure uninterrupted performance - or =
any guarantee at all past five years.
Wind energy systems are less expensive than comparably-sized solar =
electric systems, but they are still extraordinarily expensive, pretax, =
despite what you may have heard.  For example, the price of a 10 kW =
residential barebones Bergey wind system is $33,000 plus shipping. This =
doesn't include setup, which requires a crane, or the needed battery =
backup system necessary to get anywhere close to where you can be free =
of the grid. Although it is rated at 10 kW, that is the maximum during =
high winds, so that if your electric power bill was $100 last month at =
10 cents per kwh, you used 1000 kwh or 33 kwh per day. Even so, The 10 =
kwh system is probably going to be barely adequate to supply your needs =
even with the $15,000 battery back-up, control and inverter system.

Of course tax incentives will make the after tax cost less, but these =
don't apply to installation costs or cost of battery backup, and =
apparently few banks are willing to lend for wind systems at low rates =
if your mortgage is already up there. Bottom line is, unless you live =
where there is no alternative, you probably are not going to want to =
spend $60-75,000 for a windpower system that has a meager five year =
guarantee and will require full battery replacement every 7-10 years. =
Even if you consider that the energy is free, the capital and =
depreciation costs alone at 7% are going to be five or six times higher =
EVERY YEAR than what you would be paying to be grid-connected. You have =
to be real committed or real desperate for that kind of sacrifice.

Of course, you could do it yourself and save a few bucks.=20

Or you could call the blood-sucking leaches at PG&E for and be tied to =
the grid for life. There are NO easy and acceptable solutions to the =
energy crisis, and although wind energy sounds good on paper, it's =
hardly worth the time to consider in the USA big picture, even if the =
cost drops by half again.=20

Maybe in Denmark, Ireland or the North Sea or the bad lands of Texas =
where land is cheap - but for windpower to ever get over 1-2% =
nationally, it will require massive tax and aesthetic sacrifices on the =
part of far more than 1-2% of the population.

There are simply too few good sites.

Regards,

Jones











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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Most of us would love to have windpower if we could afford it. It =
is so=20
sensible and so environmentally sound, it will seduce almost any =
committed=20
alternative-energy advocate. I, for one, would make a large personal =
sacrifices=20
to have it, up to a point. So what does it really cost? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Forget the "special interest" or "misinformed commentator" =
propaganda that=20
you may be exposed to. Can you go to a dealer, contractor, or =
store&nbsp;to find=20
out how much you need to make the check out for? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Or what about info from an advocacy magazine like Windpower Monthly =
or even=20
EREN, the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, the US =
Department of=20
Energy's premier resource for information about renewable energy and =
energy=20
efficiency technologies?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In a word, NO. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is this&nbsp;lack of good public information on wind energy=20
costs&nbsp;related to&nbsp;why, after the recent energy crisis in=20
California,&nbsp;so little consideration was given to adding additional =
wind=20
stations at the grid level? &nbsp;It should have been very quick and =
easy to add=20
wind turbines, if it were really practical. The connections to=20
the&nbsp;grid&nbsp;were in place, the urgency was critical, the Sierra =
club was=20
active. Why then dozens of new gas fired plants and&nbsp;so few =
additional wind=20
power units?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It turns out that it wasn't that the cost was just too outrageous, =
which it=20
was, it also involves the scarcity of good sites for commercial=20
installations.&nbsp;The  Tehachapi Pass and San Gorgonio Pass are almost =
maxed=20
out with turbines&nbsp;and many other good sites are in federally =
protected=20
areas and parks, where wildlife would be affected. The San Gorgonio =
Pass, which=20
is among the premier sites in the USA for windpower, uses approximately =
10 times=20
more land per yearly kwh produced than does the San Onofre nuclear =
station - and=20
land acquisition cost is at a great premium here.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Most states, it seems,&nbsp;would rather see the individual or =
corporation=20
bear the brunt of the land cost for wind energy.&nbsp;And the advocacy=20
groups&nbsp;want&nbsp;to only&nbsp;give you nebulous "after tax" costs =
or=20
projected costs based on what the Europeans say it costs over there. =
Unlike=20
nuclear, coal or other grid-energy solutions, there is little "economy =
of scale"=20
with wind energy. Bigger is not better. In fact, due to problems of grid =

integration and energy storage, wind energy is almost as economical at =
the=20
residential or small neighborhood level, unless it is greatly subsidized =
by the=20
local utility. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>So why it so hard to get an actual quote? I started doing this =
several days=20
ago, after reading Rothwell's first post on wind energy and wondering if =
he was=20
not being misled on the actual figures. In general, contractors that =
claim to=20
have first hand experience with wind installations don't want to give =
out quotes=20
over the phone- perhaps they are too embarrassed to give a firm =
quotation to an=20
individual (they might be more forthcoming if you are a well-heeled =
corporation=20
and can stand the "sticker shock").</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bergey Windpower Co. from Oklahoma is the nation's leading supplier =
of=20
residential wind turbines and, in fact, the world's leading supplier of =
small=20
wind turbines.&nbsp;They have been manufacturing small wind turbines =
since 1980=20
and now have over 1,600 installations in all 50 U.S. states and more =
than 80=20
countries. They are considered the best.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bergey offers a 5 year warranty on all their turbines - no other=20
manufacturer comes near this. But if you peruse the homepower wind =
energy=20
newsgroups you will see that maintenance is a huge and expensive issue, =
even=20
with Bergey turbines,&nbsp;one that is seldom even considered by the=20
unsuspecting off-the-grid homeowner at the start, although it should be, =
as the=20
warranties on these things are minimal and the reliability is far less =
than you=20
would expect.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What does it cost for a homeowner to add a Bergey windmill to his =
farm or=20
residence to supply his total power needs, assuming the home is =
fortunate enough=20
to be located in one of the approximately 10% of residential locations =
which is=20
sited so as to get enough of a breeze to get&nbsp;adequate utilization - =
without=20
raising too much ire among the neighbors?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is where you start hearing the ughs and ahs, because they =
can't supply=20
you with a turnkey system that will keep you supplied 24/7 guaranteed =
(at least=20
not here in California). The solar energy people will do it but not the =
wind=20
energy contractors. If the wind dies off for several days at a time, =
then sorry,=20
you are up that proverbial creek. They will sell you a system that still =

requires you to be grid connected, or they will install a battery back =
up made=20
by another manufacturer, but they will not assure uninterrupted =
performance - or=20
any guarantee at all past five years.<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></DIV>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D3>Wind energy systems =
are less=20
expensive </FONT><FONT size=3D3>than comparably-sized solar electric =
systems,=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>but they are still extraordinarily expensive, =
pretax,=20
despite what you may have heard.&nbsp;</FONT><FONT size=3D3> For =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>example, the price of a 10 kW residential barebones Bergey=20
</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial>wind system is $33,000 =
plus=20
shipping. This doesn't include setup, which requires a crane,&nbsp;or =
the needed=20
battery backup system necessary to get anywhere close to where you can =
be free=20
of the grid. Although it is rated at 10 kW, that is the maximum during =
high=20
winds, so that if your electric power bill was $100 last month at 10 =
cents per=20
kwh, you used 1000 kwh or 33 kwh per day. Even so, The 10 kwh system is =
probably=20
going to be barely adequate to supply your needs even with&nbsp;the =
$15,000=20
battery back-up, control&nbsp;and inverter system.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Of course tax incentives =
will make the=20
after tax cost less, but these don't apply to installation costs or cost =
of=20
battery backup, and apparently few banks are willing to lend for wind =
systems at=20
low rates&nbsp;if your mortgage is already up there. </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D3>Bottom line is, unless you live where there is no alternative, =
you=20
probably are not going to want to spend $60-75,000 for a windpower =
system that=20
has a meager five year guarantee and will require full battery =
replacement every=20
7-10 years. Even if you consider that the energy is free, the capital =
and=20
depreciation costs alone at 7% are going to be five or six times higher =
EVERY=20
YEAR than what you would be paying to be grid-connected. You have to be =
real=20
committed or real desperate for that kind of sacrifice.</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Of course, you could do it =
yourself and=20
save&nbsp;a few&nbsp;bucks. </FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Or you could call the =
blood-sucking=20
leaches at PG&amp;E for and be tied to the grid for life. </FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D3>There are NO easy and acceptable solutions to the =
energy=20
crisis, and although wind energy sounds good on paper, it's hardly worth =
the=20
time to consider in the USA big picture, even if the cost drops by half =
again.=20
</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Maybe in Denmark, =
Ireland&nbsp;or the=20
North Sea or&nbsp;the bad lands of Texas where land is cheap&nbsp;-=20
but&nbsp;for&nbsp;windpower to ever get over 1-2% nationally, it will =
require=20
massive tax and aesthetic sacrifices on the part of far more than 1-2% =
of the=20
population.</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>There are simply too few =
good=20
sites.</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Regards,</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Jones</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</P>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</P>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</P>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</P></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C2D4DC.67BE17C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 11:14:31 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17a.16a0f260.2b7feb33 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:12:51 EST
Subject: Lets see if this bends your mind or makes  sense 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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 Frank  It appears    Your making assumptions using theory to do so    But I 
have not read your paper Frank. Do you want to send it     AS far as your 
profession as an EE I'm sorry frank you were taught totally backwards Because 
they used a theory first set of teaching rules. Instead of the correct way 
which is invention based 

  Call me 810 618 9234  but forget basically every thing you have been taught
. And throw your phase angle book away to.  Unless you have conducted 
experiments to reach conclusions that function and are not tinker toys 
because that is how inventors do. It. 

  But your correct about understanding the past because that is where the 
answers came from not from taught theories. Tesla ignored them and he is the 
prime reason your have a profession as an EE  You should have done it the way 
he did.  If we had DC there would be a power plant every mile and our modern 
society would not exist. Because AC gave us the bases for the industrial 
revolution. But the title of your paper makes sense. To an extent. I'm 
including the new base theories. 

    NEW BASE  theory for you to ponder that possibly makes sense for once     
Gravity is caused by Tacyons? Spelling that are emitted by stars. Their 
bright which means the are emitting power. It has to go somewhere. ?    It is 
a power source as neutrinos that are also emitted by stars. 

That your body converts into electricity that in turn causes  the chemical 
reactions. They also are the power source for the core of the planet. And 
they interact with the iron deposits on the planet and in turn create our 
natural magnetic fields.    Gravity and natural mag. fields are not related. 

A planet has to have iron deposits to have natural Mag. fields. But Gravity 
to different degrees is everywhere   The planet emits natural frequency's 
which are power sources that vary depending on the concentration of the iron 
deposits in a given area The frequency range is 8.5 to 8.9 

  It does because it is bombarded with neutrinos and that action makes it the 
largest battery there is. Phase conversion of electricity that we have a 
product that demonstrates a new conversion process of A/C, uses those natural 
frequency's as part of the conversion process. The process creates magnetic 
flux  and plasma fields. Using the wasted kinetic aspects and the natural 
earth frequencys. 

 If science cannot understand that they are totally screwed and will have to 
throw away their understood base of knowledge. In regard to electricity. Next 
will be their understanding of magnetics. Now if you started out as self 
taught farm boy type backyard shade tree Eng. I would be very interested in 
you. If you have had only college training I would not even consider you for 
a position with our new CO that could possible be the largest one on this 
planet.    

 The new process converts 110 V or 220 v to 3 phase. And the process uses the 
now wasted kinetic energy aspects of A/C as the prime power providers instead 
of Amps.  You do not have clue one what I'm speaking of unless you understand 
Tesla, Faraday.and Hertz. If you do not then your have a totally now useless 
base of knowledge as far as what your were formally taught as an EE.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 11:29:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <142.ab4c290.2b7feeb8 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:27:52 EST
Subject: Frank I sent you paper to the tech's for their review. . 
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           They have Tesla and Einstein combined level minds. They understand 
both sides which is the theory and the  invention dynamics as Tesla did. But 
Einstein did not understand the invention side       They will see what you 
know. It appears you may be worth looking at. will see     Thank you for 
making me aware of it.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 11:49:16 2003
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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <17a.16a0f260.2b7feb33 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Lets see if this bends your mind or makes  sense
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 14:47:37 -0500
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I'll offer an unsolicited two cents worth here, because the invocation of
Nikola Tesla's name raises a red flag and demands that whoever speaks it
must be willing to back it up historically.  It seems as though Tesla is
about the only scientist that you feel was doing his life's work the right
way - the way you feel was right.

Tesla was NOT an inventor in the Edisonian way.  Edison felt Nikola Tesla
was a know-it-all Euro science elitist theoretician who dared to confront
him with an alternative view of power and power distribution.  From this
past week's worth of e-mails, Jack, I cannot understand why you do not
invoke Edison as your hero.  He seems to be your type of guy more than
Tesla.  Edison was the empiricist, the experimentalist, the inventor.  He
tried to throw a lot into the face of accepted science and engineering.
Sometimes he succeeded, and came up with a great invention that we still use
today.  Other times he was a total dingbat and a failure.  He was also a
vocal curmudgeon, a sly and ruthless businessman, and a people manipulator.
Not that those are bad things - they are what they are.  He knew how to
steal an invention as easily as he could come up with his own.  In the end,
the world was enriched, and so Edison earned his place in the hall of
history.

Tesla was in truth the antithesis of the character you portray him as.  He
was schooled as a scientist and engineer.  He accepted the theoretical basis
that was laid before him, but he used the powers of his inventive spirit and
intuition to build upon these foundations.  He was always very gracious in
giving tremendous credit to those who came before, such as Faraday and
Maxwell.  Tesla used the accepted mathematics of his day, the basic
mathematics that is still the foundation of scientific expression.  He loved
eloquence, culture, science, and philosophy and respected the works of those
who came before him.  However the talent that will forever set him apart
from lesser scientists and engineers had nothing to do with rejection of
honest theory and math.  It was the power of imagination and visualization.
The revolving field AC motor was arrived at in a burst of inspiration when
Tesla once watched the rays of a sunset wheel through the sky.  However, the
basic principles of EM induction were already known and being worked with.
Tesla had no need to ignore or revise theory, he used it with creativity to
produce a magnificent work of industrial art, the AC motor.

Please attempt a little consistency of thought when you invoke deceased
inventors and great minds to champion your causes.

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 2:12 PM
Subject: Lets see if this bends your mind or makes sense


> Frank  It appears    Your making assumptions using theory to do so    But
I
> have not read your paper Frank. Do you want to send it     AS far as your
> profession as an EE I'm sorry frank you were taught totally backwards
Because
> they used a theory first set of teaching rules. Instead of the correct way
> which is invention based
>
>   Call me 810 618 9234  but forget basically every thing you have been
taught
> . And throw your phase angle book away to.  Unless you have conducted
> experiments to reach conclusions that function and are not tinker toys
> because that is how inventors do. It.
>
>   But your correct about understanding the past because that is where the
> answers came from not from taught theories. Tesla ignored them and he is
the
> prime reason your have a profession as an EE  You should have done it the
way
> he did.  If we had DC there would be a power plant every mile and our
modern
> society would not exist. Because AC gave us the bases for the industrial
> revolution. But the title of your paper makes sense. To an extent. I'm
> including the new base theories.
>
>     NEW BASE  theory for you to ponder that possibly makes sense for once
> Gravity is caused by Tacyons? Spelling that are emitted by stars. Their
> bright which means the are emitting power. It has to go somewhere. ?    It
is
> a power source as neutrinos that are also emitted by stars.
>
> That your body converts into electricity that in turn causes  the chemical
> reactions. They also are the power source for the core of the planet. And
> they interact with the iron deposits on the planet and in turn create our
> natural magnetic fields.    Gravity and natural mag. fields are not
related.
>
> A planet has to have iron deposits to have natural Mag. fields. But
Gravity
> to different degrees is everywhere   The planet emits natural frequency's
> which are power sources that vary depending on the concentration of the
iron
> deposits in a given area The frequency range is 8.5 to 8.9
>
>   It does because it is bombarded with neutrinos and that action makes it
the
> largest battery there is. Phase conversion of electricity that we have a
> product that demonstrates a new conversion process of A/C, uses those
natural
> frequency's as part of the conversion process. The process creates
magnetic
> flux  and plasma fields. Using the wasted kinetic aspects and the natural
> earth frequencys.
>
>  If science cannot understand that they are totally screwed and will have
to
> throw away their understood base of knowledge. In regard to electricity.
Next
> will be their understanding of magnetics. Now if you started out as self
> taught farm boy type backyard shade tree Eng. I would be very interested
in
> you. If you have had only college training I would not even consider you
for
> a position with our new CO that could possible be the largest one on this
> planet.
>
>  The new process converts 110 V or 220 v to 3 phase. And the process uses
the
> now wasted kinetic energy aspects of A/C as the prime power providers
instead
> of Amps.  You do not have clue one what I'm speaking of unless you
understand
> Tesla, Faraday.and Hertz. If you do not then your have a totally now
useless
> base of knowledge as far as what your were formally taught as an EE.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 12:11:01 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <46.35690bd4.2b7ff813 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:07:47 EST
Subject: Re: I called you Jack
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   Tom        It is called a load bank and I'm tired of your attitude and do 
not need your business if I have to put up with it        How about the real 
world way and that is having phase  conversion  Operating eq. that is 
performing actual work.  No, that is to simple for you. 

 I'm so tired of BS totally complicated science thinking   But as long as you 
pony up for the water heater  we will have a gravity drive unit run a 
generator and you can have hot water out in the middel of a frozen lake,  
where you live in minnosta  

 Unless you can come with large dollars to pay for a licensing agreement and 
your future product delivery's up front after seeing phase conversion 
operating real world machinery do not waste my time.  If you have large 
dollars I will talk to you If not have a nice day. Dennis Lee will have to 
pony up large dollars also for future delivery of systems. that will operate 
his generator 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 12:49:30 2003
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Subject: Re: Old and new items
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        I passed this on to the techie's sorry about the grammar, no one is 
perfect unless your an Eng. or a Phy. just as them they will tell you they 
are   But it was time physics was given a swift kick in the you know what.    
If known  electrical physics goes down the tubes as soon as the 50 million 
dollar tech. center test's our new electrical Tech's that current physics 
cannot explain. 

I can speed up the demise of the current in the box theory first thinking 
scientific comm. and replace it with an invention based thinking one. That 
actually functions and accomplishes something worthwhile for the first time 
in recent history. 

If so that will be the party of the century and 1929 will be recreated  But 
this time it will theory only thinking Eng. and Phy. jumping out of high rise 
buildings,  clinging to their books of theory and spouting them until they 
and their giant counter productive ego's go spat on the pavement. Then we can 
start to evolve as a civilization 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I passed t=
his on to the techie's sorry about the grammar, no one is perfect unless you=
r an Eng. or a Phy. just as them they will tell you they are&nbsp;&nbsp; But=
 it was time physics was given a swift kick in the you know what.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; If known&nbsp; electrical physics goes down the tubes as soon as the=
 50 million dollar tech. center test's our new electrical Tech's that curren=
t physics cannot explain. <BR>
<BR>
I can speed up the demise of the current in the box theory first thinking sc=
ientific comm. and replace it with an invention based thinking one. That act=
ually functions and accomplishes something worthwhile for the first time in=20=
recent history. <BR>
<BR>
If so that will be the party of the century and 1929 will be recreated&nbsp;=
 But this time it will theory only thinking Eng. and Phy. jumping out of hig=
h rise buildings,&nbsp; clinging to their books of theory and spouting them=20=
until they and their giant counter productive ego's go spat on the pavement.=
 Then we can start to evolve as a civilization </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 13:19:05 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Wind machines
In-Reply-To: <a05111b0cba73a19797d0 [64.61.199.242]>
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Thanks for giving us the other side of the argument Jones. In all fairness 
>to wind machines, there have been some significant developments in 
>technology in the past 30 years. I have been told that the price has been 
>cut in half.

It has been cut far more than that! In 1978, wind power cost approximately 
$1 per KWH (real dollars - equivalent to $2.76 today). Today, wind power 
costs $0.04 per KWH. The price has fallen by a factor of 5 in the last 16 
years. It is expected to cost $0.03 in a few years. The goal is $0.025 by 
2010, which would be far cheaper than any alternative.

Nuclear power costs about $0.06, including estimated cleanup costs. Coal 
and gas are about $0.04, but that does not include the cost of pollution, 
including 20,000 deaths in the U.S., and hundreds of thousands of deaths 
and sick people worldwide, especially in China. China has areas just north 
of Beijing that could easily supply the entire country with wind powered 
electricity.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 13:19:22 2003
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Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Forget the "special interest" or "misinformed commentator" propaganda that 
>you may be exposed to. Can you go to a dealer, contractor, or store to 
>find out how much you need to make the check out for?

No, you cannot. Only if you are a power company with millions of customers. 
Wind power is only economical on a large scale. It is like nuclear or coal 
in that regard. Note that one turbine made today is as large as 200 
turbines made in 1980.


>Is this lack of good public information on wind energy costs related to 
>why, after the recent energy crisis in California, so little consideration 
>was given to adding additional wind stations at the grid level?

During the crisis, 300 MW of wind power were added to the grid, in the 
largest wind farm on earth. It was built in far less time than any gas, 
coal or nuclear plant could have been. That is one of the reasons the 
"crisis" ended so quickly. This capacity was added in Washington (state), 
where the existing grid which is used to send hydroelectricity to 
California during the summer, and to import CA electricity in winter. See:

http://www.ppmenergy.com/about_state.html


>   It should have been very quick and easy to add wind turbines, if it 
> were really practical.

Yes, it was very quick and easy. That is why CA is adding 949 MW 
(nameplate) capacity soon (equivalent to 335 MW nuclear, or 475 MW coal). See:

http://www.awea.org/projects/california.html#Planned%20Projects%20in%20California

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 13:37:08 2003
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Subject: Re: Radiation risks put in perspective
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I wrote:

>Wind usually blows during the day, not at night. It is caused by solar 
>energy. See . . .

See also:

http://www.windpower.dk/tour/wres/annu.htm

Wind is also stronger in winter, when energy is most needed in most 
countries. This has an interesting discussion of the Capacity Factor 
Paradox, a counter-intuitive economic & engineering consideration.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 14:13:49 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>

> Yes, it was very quick and easy. That is why CA is adding 949 MW 
> (nameplate) capacity soon (equivalent to 335 MW nuclear, or 475 MW coal). See:
> 
> http://www.awea.org/projects/california.html#Planned%20Projects%20in%20California


Did you take the time to read this?

Obviously not. 949 MW has been proposed but only about 50 MW is under development, barely enough to make up for loss and obsolescence.

Hey, I hope it all goes through, but only if it is economical ...

California's electricity-supply crunch is likely to ease this year only because new gas-fired power plants totaling about 3,000 MW enter service. The bad new is that this will force gas prices higher but will that make wind competitive? Doubtful, without continuation of the tax incentives...and free use of public land.

When a 1000 MW  gas fired plant goes into operation it can theoretically be operated about 5000 hours per year and produce 5000 GWH but when a 1000 MW of windpower goes into operation, it is lucky to get 2000 full hours of wind utilization, or 2000 GWH, less than 40% of comparable faceplate. For instance, San Gorgonio Pass is rated at 588 MW but only produces about 805 M kWh (1998), and often this site is most active in the spring when the power isn't needed as much as in the winter.

California energy officials say the state requires 1,000 MW of new capacity each year for the next 10 years. I hope its all windpower if it doesn't cost too much more than fossil fuel, but it costs a lot more now, unfortunately twice as much more even at the higher natural gas prices.

According to Global Power Report's tally, California's total current capacity is about 55,000 MW and about 2000 MW of capacity comes from wind but when you reduce that by the utilization factor it is not a big factor now and may be even less percentage-wise in ten years because of the land acquisition issue.

Jones

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Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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Jones Beene wrote:

> > Yes, it was very quick and easy. That is why CA is adding 949 MW
> > (nameplate) capacity soon (equivalent to 335 MW nuclear, or 475 MW 
> coal). See:
> >
> > 
> http://www.awea.org/projects/california.html#Planned%20Projects%20in%20California
>
>
>Did you take the time to read this?
>
>Obviously not. 949 MW has been proposed but only about 50 MW is under 
>development . . .

In past years, most states have ended up adding all of the proposed 
capacity, and more. Overall growth has been consistently higher than 
projections.


>When a 1000 MW  gas fired plant goes into operation it can theoretically 
>be operated about 5000 hours per year and produce 5000 GWH . . .

Most gas plants actually produce about 60% of nameplate capacity. Nuclear 
plants produce 85 to 90% of capacity, because they are "baseline"; i.e., 
the fuel is cheap but the plant is expensive. Gas is just the opposite, so 
it is reserved for peak periods. Wind is as baseline as you can get, 
because the fuel costs zero and you can't easily stop it anyway.


>but when a 1000 MW of windpower goes into operation, it is lucky to get 
>2000 full hours of wind utilization, or 2000 GWH, less than 40% of 
>comparable faceplate. . . .

Wind is usually 25 to 30% of nameplate capacity.

- Jed


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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>

> Wind is also stronger in winter, when energy is most needed in most 
> countries. This has an interesting discussion of the Capacity Factor 
> Paradox, a counter-intuitive economic & engineering consideration.

That may be true for Denmark, and it may be an added reason that they are a leader in wind energy, but that is where "foreign" statistics can lead one astray.

In California the maximum wind speeds occur in spring and summer, especially afternoon. At least so far as in summer, one would ordinarily think winds then might be a fair match with high demand for power.  Unfortunately for the 6 million people in the SF bay, few of whom have air conditioning because of the fog, summer is not the time when we need the windpower.

Jones

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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Correction

>  Wind is as baseline as you can get, 
> because the fuel costs zero and you can't easily stop it anyway.

No, no, no. You don't understand the baseline concept. It must absolutely be "on demand" power or it is NOT baseline at all!! Windpower is NEVER "on demand".

Although fuel costs are zero, if your real baseline plants, your nuclear plants, are covering all of your momentary needs (and it is usually counter-productive to shut them down for short periods) then the windpower is just surplus, a waste - if you can't sell it to someone who doesn't have adequate baseline.
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 14:43:44 2003
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In a message dated 2/15/03 2:49:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nreiter woh.rr.com writes:


> I'll offer an unsolicited two cents worth here, because the invocation of
> Nikola Tesla's name raises a red flag and demands that whoever speaks it
> must be willing to back it up historically.  It seems as though Tesla is
> about the only scientist that you feel was doing his life's work the right
> way - the way you feel was right.
> 
> Tesla was NOT an inventor in the Edisonian way.  Edison felt Nikola Tesla
> was a know-it-all Euro science elitist theoretician who dared to confront
> him with an alternative view of power and power distribution.  From this
> past week's worth of e-mails, Jack, I cannot understand why you do not
> invoke Edison as your hero. 
> 
      RePLY     THAT was not very smart NOW I'm going to have your lunch for 
you     If you read Edison's notes  and his lacky's notes who worked for him  
 ""programed by a worthless EDU. system one "" instead of what  you swallowed 
hook line and sinker that the EDU. system fed you. 

You would find out the only two situations he actually invented himself were 
Concrete furniture and the worst invention ever the Corp. Lab. Which is what 
the prime problem is now in our society The light bulb was a 40 year old 
German invention that he got lucky on.

 He walked into his Lab. And one of his lackeys was sleeping on a bench and 
he wanted to wake him up and used an electrical device and gave him a charge. 
One of the hairs on his new sweater his wife has just made for him started to 
glow and Edison did not even notice it. One of the other guys did and brought 
it to his attention and he still did not put two and two together,  one of 
his other guys did. Edison was a good promoter and he screwed Tesla which was 
not very smart. Edison was very jealous of Tesla..Edison also  had tunnels 
leading away from his home to escape bill collectors 

 Einstein was not they worked together on projects one is the 
teletransporation device in the deep basement at FT Mead where the NSA is.    
Do you know how it functions?? I do. Tell us all knowing one    The prime 
other one was what became the Philadelphia Experiment  in 1947 when the Moron 
pin heads  caused a rift in time. .  That was an Experiment using high 
frequency's which is basically Tacyons     PE EE you know about Dick. 

 He seems to be your type of guy more than> 
> Tesla.  Edison was the empiricist, the experimentalist, the inventor.  He
> tried to throw a lot into the face of accepted science and engineering.
> Sometimes he succeeded, and came up with a great invention that we still 
> use
> today.  Other times he was a total dingbat and a failure.  He was also a
> vocal curmudgeon, a sly and ruthless businessman, and a people manipulator.
> Not that those are bad things - they are what they are.  He knew how to
> steal an invention as easily as he could come up with his own.  In the end,
> the world was enriched, and so Edison earned his place in the hall of 
> history. 

   REPLY If Tesla  would have accepted the math he could not have done what 
he did. If Moron you would look at old Tesla > pictures you would see devices 
> off in a corner that had to  be Electricity phase converters Because our 
> late Dev. created devices that were fashioned after them that function to a 
> point   That they can use 9 amps from 110 v and convert enough from those 9 
> amps to conduct 12 to 15 HP. of 3 phase work  That is 99% EFF>  if you use 
> now worthless O U math that is 900% EFF. 

   There is all new math that explains that process it is ""ELECTRON FLOW 
WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF"" IF SO  you > do not have clue one what your talking 
> about in regard to Edison or Tesla. But your other statements about Tesla 
> are basically correct.  You have only basically looked at books and never 
> looked beyond them  That was BIG Mistake  and you will be eating or wiping 
> your know what with your Sheep Skin because of it. EE       
> 
> Tesla was in truth the antithesis of the character you portray him as.  He
> was schooled as a scientist and engineer.  He accepted the theoretical 
> basis
> that was laid before him, but he used the powers of his inventive spirit 
> and
> intuition to build upon these foundations.  He was always very gracious in
> giving tremendous credit to those who came before, such as Faraday and
> Maxwell.  Tesla used the accepted mathematics of his day, the basic
> mathematics that is still the foundation of scientific expression.  He 
> loved
> eloquence, culture, science, and philosophy and respected the works of 
> those
> who came before him.  However the talent that will forever set him apart
> from lesser scientists and engineers had nothing to do with rejection of
> honest theory and math.  It was the power of imagination and visualization.
> The revolving field AC motor was arrived at in a burst of inspiration when
> Tesla once watched the rays of a sunset wheel through the sky.  However, 
> the
> basic principles of EM induction were already known and being worked with.
> Tesla had no need to ignore or revise theory, he used it with creativity to
> produce a magnificent work of industrial art, the AC motor.
> 
> Please attempt a little consistency of thought when you invoke deceased
> inventors and great minds to champion your causes.
> 
> NR
> 


--part1_19d.10e19404.2b801c0f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/15/0=
3 2:49:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, nreiter woh.rr.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'll offer an unsolicited two c=
ents worth here, because the invocation of<BR>
Nikola Tesla's name raises a red flag and demands that whoever speaks it<BR>
must be willing to back it up historically.&nbsp; It seems as though Tesla i=
s<BR>
about the only scientist that you feel was doing his life's work the right<B=
R>
way - the way you feel was right.<BR>
<BR>
Tesla was NOT an inventor in the Edisonian way.&nbsp; Edison felt Nikola Tes=
la<BR>
was a know-it-all Euro science elitist theoretician who dared to confront<BR=
>
him with an alternative view of power and power distribution.&nbsp; From thi=
s<BR>
past week's worth of e-mails, Jack, I cannot understand why you do not<BR>
invoke Edison as your hero. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RePLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT was not ve=
ry smart NOW I'm going to have your lunch for you&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If=
 you read Edison's notes&nbsp; and his lacky's notes who worked for him&nbsp=
;&nbsp; ""programed by a worthless EDU. system one "" instead of what&nbsp;=20=
you swallowed hook line and sinker that the EDU. system fed you. <BR>
<BR>
You would find out the only two situations he actually invented himself were=
 Concrete furniture and the worst invention ever the Corp. Lab. Which is wha=
t the prime problem is now in our society The light bulb was a 40 year old G=
erman invention that he got lucky on.<BR>
<BR>
 He walked into his Lab. And one of his lackeys was sleeping on a bench and=20=
he wanted to wake him up and used an electrical device and gave him a charge=
. One of the hairs on his new sweater his wife has just made for him started=
 to glow and Edison did not even notice it. One of the other guys did and br=
ought it to his attention and he still did not put two and two together,&nbs=
p; one of his other guys did. Edison was a good promoter and he screwed Tesl=
a which was not very smart. Edison was very jealous of Tesla..Edison also&nb=
sp; had tunnels leading away from his home to escape bill collectors <BR>
<BR>
 Einstein was not they worked together on projects one is the teletransporat=
ion device in the deep basement at FT Mead where the NSA is.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Do you know how it functions?? I do. Tell us all knowing one&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; The prime other one was what became the Philadelphia Experiment&nbsp;=20=
in 1947 when the Moron pin heads&nbsp; caused a rift in time. .&nbsp; That w=
as an Experiment using high frequency's which is basically Tacyons&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; PE EE you know about Dick. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 He seems to be your type of guy more than<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"B=
ORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-=
LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Tesla.&nbsp; Edison was the empiricist, the experimentalist, the inventor.&n=
bsp; He<BR>
tried to throw a lot into the face of accepted science and engineering.<BR>
Sometimes he succeeded, and came up with a great invention that we still use=
<BR>
today.&nbsp; Other times he was a total dingbat and a failure.&nbsp; He was=20=
also a<BR>
vocal curmudgeon, a sly and ruthless businessman, and a people manipulator.<=
BR>
Not that those are bad things - they are what they are.&nbsp; He knew how to=
<BR>
steal an invention as easily as he could come up with his own.&nbsp; In the=20=
end,<BR>
the world was enriched, and so Edison earned his place in the hall of histor=
y. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY If Tesla&=
nbsp; would have accepted the math he could not have done what he did. If Mo=
ron you would look at old Tesla <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT=
: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=
>pictures you would see devices off in a corner that had to&nbsp; be Electri=
city phase converters Because our late Dev. created devices that were fashio=
ned after them that function to a point&nbsp;&nbsp; That they can use 9 amps=
 from 110 v and convert enough from those 9 amps to conduct 12 to 15 HP. of=20=
3 phase work&nbsp; That is 99% EFF&gt;&nbsp; if you use now worthless O U ma=
th that is 900% EFF. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCK=
QUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; There is all ne=
w math that explains that process it is ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN=20=
EMF"" IF SO&nbsp; you <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff=20=
2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">do not ha=
ve clue one what your talking about in regard to Edison or Tesla. But your o=
ther statements about Tesla are basically correct.&nbsp; You have only basic=
ally looked at books and never looked beyond them&nbsp; That was BIG Mistake=
&nbsp; and you will be eating or wiping your know what with your Sheep Skin=20=
because of it. EE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Tesla was in truth the antithesis of the character you portray him as.&nbsp;=
 He<BR>
was schooled as a scientist and engineer.&nbsp; He accepted the theoretical=20=
basis<BR>
that was laid before him, but he used the powers of his inventive spirit and=
<BR>
intuition to build upon these foundations.&nbsp; He was always very gracious=
 in<BR>
giving tremendous credit to those who came before, such as Faraday and<BR>
Maxwell.&nbsp; Tesla used the accepted mathematics of his day, the basic<BR>
mathematics that is still the foundation of scientific expression.&nbsp; He=20=
loved<BR>
eloquence, culture, science, and philosophy and respected the works of those=
<BR>
who came before him.&nbsp; However the talent that will forever set him apar=
t<BR>
from lesser scientists and engineers had nothing to do with rejection of<BR>
honest theory and math.&nbsp; It was the power of imagination and visualizat=
ion.<BR>
The revolving field AC motor was arrived at in a burst of inspiration when<B=
R>
Tesla once watched the rays of a sunset wheel through the sky.&nbsp; However=
, the<BR>
basic principles of EM induction were already known and being worked with.<B=
R>
Tesla had no need to ignore or revise theory, he used it with creativity to<=
BR>
produce a magnificent work of industrial art, the AC motor.<BR>
<BR>
Please attempt a little consistency of thought when you invoke deceased<BR>
inventors and great minds to champion your causes.<BR>
<BR>
NR<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_19d.10e19404.2b801c0f_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 14:44:10 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Radiation risks put in perspective
In-Reply-To: <001901c2d541$62857860$0a016ea8 cpq>
References: <000b01c2d473$e73a9960$0a016ea8 cpq>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030214141210.00ae2f00 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jones Beene wrote:

> > Wind is also stronger in winter, when energy is most needed in most
> > countries. This has an interesting discussion of the Capacity Factor
> > Paradox, a counter-intuitive economic & engineering consideration.
>
>That may be true for Denmark, and it may be an added reason that they are 
>a leader in wind energy, but that is where "foreign" statistics can lead 
>one astray.
>
>In California the maximum wind speeds occur in spring and summer, 
>especially afternoon. . . .

When you say "that" may be true, you mean the statement about seasons, not 
the Capacity Factor Paradox.

Yes, seasonal variation and other weather related conditions do vary from 
one place to another. Also, electric power demand is quite different from 
one place to another. I said "winter, when energy is most needed in most 
countries" . . . But in Southern California the highest demand is in 
summer, not winter. It balances nicely with Washington and Oregon, which 
export power in summer, and import it in winter.

Gigantic-scale wind power is a possibility. In 20 or 30 years, it might 
cost a penny a kilowatt or less. In ND, for example, they have the capacity 
for 138,000 MW with present technology. In 20 years there may be giant 20 
MW turbines that reach so high, that capacity will be even greater. I think 
such enormous output would only be useful as method to produce chemical 
fuel; hydrogen or synthetic hydrocarbons.

See:

http://www.awea.org/projects/northdakota.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 14:49:14 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
In-Reply-To: <001301c2d542$dbd4a820$0a016ea8 cpq>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030215160259.03059728 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>No, no, no. You don't understand the baseline concept. It must absolutely 
>be "on demand" power or it is NOT baseline at all!! Windpower is NEVER "on 
>demand".

Yes, I do understand it. On a state-wide or continent-wide scale, wind is 
always available. It is about the same at all times. It is more reliable 
than nuclear power, in fact, because nuclear power plants have to be taken 
off line periodically for refueling and maintenance. Wind farms take out 
one turbine at a time for maintenance.

Also, as I pointed out, a trivial accident at a nuclear plant is likely to 
cost $400 million or more, and it may well take the plant off line forever. 
It is not likely to hurt anyone, but it does cost billions of dollars and 
disrupts the system.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 15:09:21 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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Further Correction:

>  [windpower] is more reliable 
> than nuclear power, in fact, because nuclear power plants have to be taken 
> off line periodically for refueling and maintenance. Wind farms take out 
> one turbine at a time for maintenance.

Oops... You couldn't be more wrong. 

You have already admitted that windpower operates at 25%-30% of nameplate. Many nuclear plants, especially the CANDU in Canada have operated for years at greater than 100% of nameplate. This is a gigantic advantage, a 4-to1 advantage.

Of course, in this particular case, the CANDU is by far the better design and implementation than PWR reactors from GE etc. because it uses only natural, unenriched uranium, can be refueled during operation, needs little maintenance and breeds slightly more fuel over time, so it ages well... 

... but that only means that we in the good old USA should bite the bullet, tell GE where to stuff their antiquated PWRs, and begin to order our next generation of reactors from Canada...

...fat chance of that. The GE PAC is way up there in soft money donations...

Jones

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The Canadian CANDU 6, the latest and greatest reactor from Canada, has =
an outstanding, consistent record of success.=20

Operating units have achieved lifetime average capacity factor of almost =
85 per cent. Construction time has been minimized, with the most =
recently completed (1997-99) units in Korea being built on time to the =
day, in demanding 55-month construction schedules.=20

Unit 4 at the Wolsong station in South Korea had the highest capacity =
factor, 102.9 per cent in the world for the year ending September 2000.  =


Due to its reliability and improved safety and economics, nuclear power =
is now starting to be seen once more as an important clean energy source =
in many countries, almost everywhere but the USA. In 2000, the number of =
operating nuclear power plants worldwide increased to 438, with 36 new =
plants under construction. No new plants have been built here for years.

The US is currently tied to an antiquated and inefficient design, =
controlled by the General Electric Co. which has great political =
influence.

But if utilities here were allowed to purchase the CANDU for what the =
Koreans paid (plus inflation and the difference in labor costs), then =
electric power could be produced for less than ONE CENT /kwh in the USA, =
and even less with reprocessing, according to those familiar with the =
details of the Korean deal.  This is about five times cheaper than =
windpower and half the cost of coal.

Jones
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>The Canadian CANDU 6, the latest and greatest reactor from Canada, =
has an=20
outstanding, consistent record of success. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Operating units have achieved lifetime average capacity factor of =
almost 85=20
per cent. Construction time has been minimized, with the most recently =
completed=20
(1997-99) units in Korea being built on time to the day, in demanding =
55-month=20
construction schedules. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Unit 4 at the Wolsong station in South Korea had the highest =
capacity=20
factor, 102.9 per cent in the world for the year ending September =
2000.&nbsp;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Due to its reliability and improved safety and economics, nuclear =
power is=20
now starting to be&nbsp;seen once more as an important clean energy =
source in=20
many countries, almost everywhere but the USA. In 2000, the number of =
operating=20
nuclear power plants worldwide increased to 438, with 36 new plants =
under=20
construction. No new plants have been built here for years.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The US is currently tied to an antiquated and inefficient design,=20
controlled by the General Electric Co. which has great political=20
influence.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But&nbsp;if utilities here were allowed to purchase the CANDU for =
what the=20
Koreans paid (plus inflation and the difference in labor costs), then =
electric=20
power could be produced for less than ONE CENT /kwh in the USA, and even =
less=20
with reprocessing, according to those familiar with the details of the =
Korean=20
deal.&nbsp; This is about five times cheaper than windpower and half the =
cost of=20
coal.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 15:44:04 2003
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Subject: Re: I called you Jack
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:41:36 +1100
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:16:08 -0600:
Hi Thomas,
[snip]

You confuse "KW" and kWh.
For you, and anyone else watching kW ("KW") is NOT an abbreviation of kWh.

>>In a message dated 2/14/03 10:23:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>>temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
>>
>>>I tried to call you, but the phone number you posted doesn't work.
>>>
>>
>>    REPLY    I JUST HAD a  CALL FROM MELBOURNE  on 810 618 9234  you 
>>talked  to the tech .
>>   If
>>
>>>
>>>you can demonstrate the above claim with a watt hour meter and a
>>>water heater, then the Inventor has done it.
>>>
>>
>>   REPLY  how about  use for what is was intended  run a 3 phase EQ 
>>Or a gen that can convert back to single phase 
>>         the 50 million dollar tech is going to do it that way
>
>
>
>  I don't care how you do it Jack, This is a straight forward 
>question, and I would appreciate a straight answer. You power the 
>unit from a power source that comes out of a standard watt hour 
>meter. The unit's output goes to a water heater. You produce a 
>certain number of gallons of water with a certain increase in 
>temperature. You total up the number of watts used. Then you total up 
>the BTU's which are required to account for the increase in 
>temperature of the water. You divide that number by 3157, which is 
>the number of BTU's in a K W of electricity. Will that number exceed 
>the number of   K W's of electricity used?
>
>The small font that you are using is hard to read. I would appreciate 
>it if you would increase it.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 17:00:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:57:37 EST
Subject: Re: I called you Jack
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Tom i guess you do not know it all you have been corrected. Will the sky now 
fall and the world come to an end. Now That tom does not know it all 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 17:23:12 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:21:08 EST
Subject: Jed Rothwell says he will pay 10,000 and i contact him 
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     But Jed does not reply in regard to his offer. To purchase what he calls 
an O U device. We have one that is operational that he can purchase that in 
his thinking is 800% EFF. But we call it 95% EFF. Because we have created the 
first new math in 100 years that explains it. Who on this planet has anything 
on that level.? 

His buddy Gene Mallove the editor of Infinite Energy Mag. has all ready 
tested the device and he has it on tape. Plus he built an obsolete version in 
his Lab. from instructions we provided him. And I have published his test 
results that he sent us.   BUT Jed is no where to be found. When he is 
confronted with his offer.

JED  last year on the phone offered me 20,000 for a cigarette lighter that is 
not for sale that operates using water.   So this is worth at least 25,000 
JED. It appears Jed Rothwell is all talk and nothing else. Because all he has 
to do is call Gene for verification.   WHAT IS YOUR DEAL JED ? I'm getting 
the impression your just a blow hard as Gene is.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 17:43:38 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:41:47 EST
Subject: WHO WANTS TO SEE A FILE ABOUT A NUKE REACTOR IN A 5 Gal. Bucket
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      That is operational and does not produce any waste or B grade material 
and never reaches critical mass. That 6 units theoretically if used to 
operate turbines or steam engines that in turn operate Gen. Would provide 
power for the world trade center for comparison purposes.  

The Quantum leap situation is only for high demand power requirement 
applications.  A CIA contact of the DEV. has all ready showed the extensive 
files to the National Security council.  Plus Los Alamos and Berkley have saw 
them also. And all were clueless. 

But Gene Mallove the editor of Infinite energy Mag. understands them after I 
sent them to him. In 2001. He should he is a MIT trained Nuclear Physicist. 
The new technology renders current nuke thinking back to the ice age.  . It 
is time to wake up people a new world is coming be there or be square. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 20:16:04 2003
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Subject: Re: I called you Jack
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In a message dated 2/15/2003 3:10:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

> Unless you can come with large dollars to pay for a licensing agreement and 
> your future product delivery's up front after seeing phase conversion 
> operating real world machinery do not waste my time.  If you have large 
> dollars I will talk to you If not have a nice day. Dennis Lee will have to 
> pony up large dollars also for future delivery of systems. that will 
> operate 
> his generator 

Thank you for you time and information.  I am looking into AC phase 
conversion technologies and how they work, just out of curiosity.  I will not 
contact you or bother you unless I have a large sum of funds and support.  
Best Wishes!

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/15/2003 3:10:55 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Unless you can come with large=20=
dollars to pay for a licensing agreement and <BR>
your future product delivery's up front after seeing phase conversion <BR>
operating real world machinery do not waste my time.&nbsp; If you have large=
 <BR>
dollars I will talk to you If not have a nice day. Dennis Lee will have to <=
BR>
pony up large dollars also for future delivery of systems. that will operate=
 <BR>
his generator </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for you time and information.&nbsp; I am looking into AC phase con=
version technologies and how they work, just out of curiosity.&nbsp; I will=20=
not contact you or bother you unless I have a large sum of funds and support=
.&nbsp; Best Wishes!<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 20:45:13 2003
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Subject: Re: WHO WANTS TO SEE A FILE ABOUT A NUKE REACTOR IN A 5 Gal. Bucket
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:31:12 -0600
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All,

FWIW, I'm outta here!!!!!

Jon F

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 15 21:54:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1db.2cf2e53.2b80811b aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:52:27 EST
Subject: Where are you Jed Rothwell ??????
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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        Are you hiding behind Gene Malloves dress like you  probably use to 
behind your mothers.  You are not responding WE have  a unit  that totally 
uses electricity in a different way. that can cause drastic reductions in the 
amount needed to operate any given situation   

 Your going to lose face because your peers out here are expecting a response 
about your offer.  You should know by now that gene has tested it and was 
totally clueless. His boy Ken could not even grasp the concept.and he tested 
it with a 1500 dollar test meter.  I have your number around here in Atlanta 
somewhere  I have no takers yet that want to see the exotic clean nuke 
reactor files.  I have three separate ones. from 2001 

 Gene said they were real but he did not know what to do with them because he 
is not a Bus. Type.    everybody wants solutions to what are going to be 
crushing energy problems.   I gave them to you now your clueless what to do. 
Frank did you read Edison's notes. to verify what I said. 

American history text books are so full of gaping holes and total out right 
slanted  MIS information they are a total joke. You will find that out about 
Edison when you read his notes. He wrote them. He was not an inventor. Did 
you know a black man in the South built and flew a world war one type jenny 
prior to the Wright brothers?  and crashed it and died. WE here in America 
have the most piss poor EDU. system on this planet. and on top of that we 
think we know it now that is arrogance.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 00:54:01 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
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He came on the list going on about this marvelous invention that was
300 years ahead on our present thinking. Then he had to be corrected
about his highly questionable choice of words he used to ridicule
people. Now I've just been informed that Thomas Edison didn't really
invent much. Regardless of my personal disgust for Thomas Edison as a
human being, I want to be the first to say that he was one of the
most prolific inventors who ever lived. As I recall, he left behind
several hundred inventions.

Now I've just been informed the N S A has telaportation! Hello, Earth
calling Jack. That whole Montak scenario was a fantasy made up by Al
Bielek. If the government had technology like a physical flying disk,
that they reverse engineered from creatures that came here from
another star system, they'd be using it. But there is no credible
evidence for that.

So, I gave you a chance to get to the bottom line, and what do I get?
ridicule. OK I forgot the difference between a K W and a K W hour. I
did mention 3157, which, as I recall, is the number of B T U's in a K
W hour, so the oversight would have been obvious to anyone who knew
anything about E E. Oh, but you don't think that E E's don't know
anything, is that right, Jack? Hum, all of the electrical equipment
that I've worked on works just fine, and all of it was designed by E
E's.

Now I admit that their equipment isn't all that efficient. Electrical
motors are oversized for the job, but some of that is attributable to
the E E's making them stout. I have previously mentioned the Green
Plug, which corrects for this, but it only saves 10-30%.

So, along comes Jack, and wants us to believe that he knows how to
cut the customer's electric bill by 75%. Now were I come from that is
a 400% increase in efficiency. How is he going to accomplish this?
Jack says that we are too stupid to understand it, because he is,
after all operating 300 years in the future. When I suggested a
simple test which would have resolved the matter, his only response
was to ridicule me for a simple oversight. No explanation, and no
offer to conduct the test.

Then there was that letter that Jack posted earlier about how I was
going to have to put up some big money. Well, if I were convinced
that you have what you say that you do, I would. But every thing that
I've heard so far Jack, makes the believe that I'm talking to a
psychotic who is living in his own private fantasy world.

The bottom line, Jack, is that if you cut the customer's power bill
by 75% either you are stealing electricity from the power company, or
you have an over unity generator. But you've previously stated that
the phase converter is not an O U generator. So, I'm left with the
third option, that you are crazy,

Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  is he crazy, or so
advanced that poor simpletons like us can't understand him?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 02:27:34 2003
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:25:43 +1100
From: Alan Schneider <alansch zipworld.com.au>
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thomas malloy wrote:
<Big Snip>

> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  is he crazy, or so
> advanced that poor simpletons like us can't understand him?

Crazy or not... Moot point. But Jack is certainly outspoken to
a fault and damned rude to anyone who dares say anything he can
construe as disagreement.

At least one list member (jonffi) has announced he is leaving
the list, apparently because (I deduce) of Jack's rudeness and
outspokenness.

The general tone of Jack's posts to the group have been
extremely controversial, disagreeable and, much of the time,
actively unpleasant. One or two such posts I could overlook
but Jack has been posting quite prolifically  and the general
anger and nastiness of his posts have caused me several times
to seriously consider killfiling him.

Jack may have something revolutionary, he may not. But he is
certainly not creating any good impressions with his continual
anger and insults. He is being an outstandingly bad publicist.

Personally, I think it's probably past time for our esteemed
list owner & moderator (Hi, Bill. Are you listening in? <grin>)
to step in and require Jack to tone down his approach to a more
acceptable level or, if Jack fails to comply with such a
reasonable request, to ban him from Vortex.

Just my five cents worth.
Alan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 06:05:10 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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At 4:17 PM 2/15/3, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Wind power is only economical on a large scale. It is like nuclear or coal
>in that regard. Note that one turbine made today is as large as 200
>turbines made in 1980.


So true.  To be viable, the industry further requires a steady base of
policy, regulation, pricing, and financing to work from.  None of these has
been forthcoming.  My suggestion of a "renewable energy permanent fund" was
meant to at least partially address some of these financial stability
problems.

A major aspect of the renewable energy problem is energy storage.
Converison to a hydrogen or methane distribution system will help solve
this problem in my opinion.  Methane woul dbe the best place to start in my
opinion, becuase injection storage is feasible and a major
transmissio/distribution system is already in place.  If the cost per kWh
continues to drop, then direct generation of hydrogen should be feasible in
the next 10 years. Methane can be readily made from hydrogen and further,
the carbon can be extracted from the atmosphere.

Another major factor affecting unit cost is location.  A location with a
good wind rose is required for major hydrogen or methane production.
Alaska is a vast resource in this regard.  Unfortunately, many of the best
locations are on mountain ridges, where conventional windmills will not
work well.  However, many advances have been made in engineering arctic
windmills, and a sufficient research program should readily be able to tap
the arctic wind potential.  It is much less of a technical problem than
going to the moon.

I think part of the arctic solution may be creation of wind towers which
support multiple windmills, which allow the veritcal stacking of windmills
and provide a 3 dimensional structural framework to support them.

It is too bad that the present push for a hydrogen system appears to be
based on the notion that hydrogen can be used to "create energy."  This is
almost like saying that electricity can be used to create energy.  Though
true in a very narrow sense, that of convderting one form of energy to
another, neither electricity nor hydrogen is a natural resource which can
be mined.  They have to me manufactured, and the energy cost of the
manufacturing is much more than the energy provided when the product is
consumed.  It is only through the production of renewable energy. like wind
and solar energy, that the major environmental problems and risks can be
eliminated.

We are on the threshold of feasiblity.  All we need is the vision to make
it happen in a big way so that another 20 to 40 years is not lost before we
make renewable energy eliminate our need for fossil fuels. I believe that
doing this quickly is only possible with government understanding of the
true problem and with government support.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 06:26:25 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d1.2d7cfdc.2b80f917 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 09:24:23 EST
Subject: Knowledge comes from investigating not a book. 
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          Tom  I suggest you read Edison's  own notes. And his lackeys notes. 
Not what is published in text books. It is called investigating which is 
something basically no does anymore.  Because for the most part society  has 
been programed not to. If our forefathers never investigated they would have 
never progressed. That was what the pioneer sprit was all about.  Today that 
sprit in basically no where to be found. 

 They just make assumptions and arrive at conclusions using only assumptions. 
God forbid they actually investigated something. because they may actually 
learn something if they did.    Here in America 98% just swallow hook line 
and sinker what they are fed by the Edu. system. And do not question 
anything. That is our problem in this country and why we are  basically 
morons. Because learning is a product of investigating. Not swallowing what 
someone wants to feed you for a reason.  Because there are reasons behind 
every thing that occurs.    

In Russia they stress the math and the sciences Did you know they teach Trig. 
In the third grade.?  At one time we had innovative EDU. In this country now 
it is nothing but conformity which is control.  Big corps want parts to 
replace worn out parts They do want the EDU> system to turn out independent 
situations 

Because that could be a threat to them and could become their competition and 
they do want that occurring. Colleges depend on money from big corp. but to 
receive that money they have to tow line in regard to what that big corp 
giving them the money wants. That is not that difficult to see if you look 
past your nose. But that is very difficult to accomplish when you have been 
programed not to. It is called a catch 22 . 

Tom you live in Minnesota. It is a proven fact the Vikings were there in the 
13 Th. century.. Actually they were first there in the 5 Th. century. How did 
they get there.?  They investigated. How?  They navigated  through the Great 
Lakes by staying close to the shore line.

   How do you find out it was actually 5 Th. century?  You investigate the 
same way they did?  The same way Columbus did in the 14 Th. century but he 
had navigational devices that someone investigated and invented. Probably 
using Viking or Chinese knowledge to do so. Because Marco Polo had been there 
in the 12 Th. century. The Chinese have records going back 25,000 years.  

 How about A/C current the bases for the industrial revolution how was it 
discovered?  It appears someone investigated. Was it Edison that accomplished 
that. NO   It was Tesla. using Faraday's and Hertz's work. A/C current  
Industrial 3 phase power is what the Henry Ford use to built his Co. Without 
it he could not have accomplished that feat. Could he accomplished that with 
Edison's DC  NO. 

 What have you people been taught??  It appears basically nothing. Except 
what someone wants you to know that they fed you for a reason. Who among you 
has ever investigated anything. But yet your authority's on any subject. Just 
ask you and you will tells you are. And puff out your giant counter 
productive ego's in the process. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 07:01:17 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <79.a2db4d4.2b810141 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 09:59:13 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: carlton.speck delphiauto.com
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          Tom the 50 million tech. center here is going to test phase 
conversion at their site in a real world setting.   Which is what they saw it 
being demonstrated in when it  was operating EQ as it was designed to 
accomplish. AS infinite Energy Mag. did using meters. HELLO that is the way 
it is done  They are not going to use a water heater. They laughed at that 
one all ready when the moron EE Eric Kreig suggested it. BTDT Tom  You could 
that but what for?   

 Also Moron You pay for what comes past your meter. It belongs to you at that 
point what you can accomplish with it moron is your business. You apparently 
are clueless even how to understand the concept. And an Engineer 99% of the 
time has a combative arrogant reaction as your portraying when confronted 
with a situation that they are supposed to understand but do not. 

Tom I have dealt with visionary class act Chief Scientist's of majority world 
wide in scope corp.  On a one to one bases. Who acted like real engineers 
that were willing to learn something new.  Your a piss ant know it all EE 
cube boy type in comparison. Your not on that level. or anywhere near it. If 
phase conversion is factual your base of electrical knowledge is worthless.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 07:01:25 2003
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <a05111b13ba7501c8606f [64.61.199.242]>
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:03:08 -0000
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Has Stan Meyer been reincarated in the form of Jack Carey ???

We have heard it all before,

Rgds 
NDW
----- Original Message ----- 
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 8:53 AM
Subject: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?


> 
> He came on the list going on about this marvelous invention that was
> 300 years ahead on our present thinking. Then he had to be corrected
> about his highly questionable choice of words he used to ridicule
> people. Now I've just been informed that Thomas Edison didn't really
> invent much. Regardless of my personal disgust for Thomas Edison as a
> human being, I want to be the first to say that he was one of the
> most prolific inventors who ever lived. As I recall, he left behind
> several hundred inventions.
> 
> Now I've just been informed the N S A has telaportation! Hello, Earth
> calling Jack. That whole Montak scenario was a fantasy made up by Al
> Bielek. If the government had technology like a physical flying disk,
> that they reverse engineered from creatures that came here from
> another star system, they'd be using it. But there is no credible
> evidence for that.
> 
> So, I gave you a chance to get to the bottom line, and what do I get?
> ridicule. OK I forgot the difference between a K W and a K W hour. I
> did mention 3157, which, as I recall, is the number of B T U's in a K
> W hour, so the oversight would have been obvious to anyone who knew
> anything about E E. Oh, but you don't think that E E's don't know
> anything, is that right, Jack? Hum, all of the electrical equipment
> that I've worked on works just fine, and all of it was designed by E
> E's.
> 
> Now I admit that their equipment isn't all that efficient. Electrical
> motors are oversized for the job, but some of that is attributable to
> the E E's making them stout. I have previously mentioned the Green
> Plug, which corrects for this, but it only saves 10-30%.
> 
> So, along comes Jack, and wants us to believe that he knows how to
> cut the customer's electric bill by 75%. Now were I come from that is
> a 400% increase in efficiency. How is he going to accomplish this?
> Jack says that we are too stupid to understand it, because he is,
> after all operating 300 years in the future. When I suggested a
> simple test which would have resolved the matter, his only response
> was to ridicule me for a simple oversight. No explanation, and no
> offer to conduct the test.
> 
> Then there was that letter that Jack posted earlier about how I was
> going to have to put up some big money. Well, if I were convinced
> that you have what you say that you do, I would. But every thing that
> I've heard so far Jack, makes the believe that I'm talking to a
> psychotic who is living in his own private fantasy world.
> 
> The bottom line, Jack, is that if you cut the customer's power bill
> by 75% either you are stealing electricity from the power company, or
> you have an over unity generator. But you've previously stated that
> the phase converter is not an O U generator. So, I'm left with the
> third option, that you are crazy,
> 
> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  is he crazy, or so
> advanced that poor simpletons like us can't understand him?
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 07:03:54 2003
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 07:00:21 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Horace,

Artic windmills sounds like a concept that would please everybody if the price was right....vast areas of inexpensive land, good winds, few neighbors, not to mention a great "hink sink" that unfortunately wouldn't be needed for windpower, but nevertheless...You haven't shied away from away from "ballpark" cost estimations in the past.

Can you estimate what hydrogen would cost from artic windmills?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 07:13:37 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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Looks like my spell checker turned itself off for the weekend. Previous message should read:

Horace,

Artic windmills sounds like a concept that would please everybody if the price was right....vast areas of inexpensive land, good winds, few neighbors, not to mention a great "heat sink" that unfortunately wouldn't be needed for windpower, but nevertheless...You haven't shied away from away from "ballpark" cost estimations in the past.

Can you estimate what hydrogen would cost from artic windmills?

Jones

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <94.344f2be2.2b811521 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:24:01 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
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In a message dated 2/16/03 5:27:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
alansch zipworld.com.au writes:


> > Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  is he crazy, or so
> > advanced that poor simpletons like us can't understand him?

>      REPLY   When you are confronted with new totally different situations 
> attempting to  Understand them  requires a skeptical  open mind.  When 
> someone is attempting to present something that basically does not exist.  
> From experence  the vasy majority of time people react just the opposite,  
> with skeptical closed and narrow minded judgmental attitudes. Because they 
> have been subjected to conformaty only teachings is the reason . That 
> process which is  the current standard of teaching in our EDU> system does 
> not allow for creative and free thinking or open minded investigation   
when being presented with new possibilities

> Crazy or not... Moot point. But Jack is certainly outspoken to
> a fault and damned rude to anyone who dares say anything he can
> construe as disagreement.

>      REPLY  Combative  out spoken reactions such as Tom's in regards to 
> presentations will get reactions in return as it is in any case. I present 
> people react. When they react with judgement conclusions and not 
> investgative attitudes. I'm going to react to those actions   

> At least one list member (jonffi) has announced he is leaving
> the list, apparently because (I deduce) of Jack's rudeness and
> outspokenness.
>   REPLY  Did he investigate before he did  NO  He arrived at a conclusion 
> using an assumption. The exact same thing your doing. 

The general tone of Jack's posts to the group have been> 
> extremely controversial, disagreeable and, much of the time,
> actively unpleasant. 
> 
  REPLY   New situations are going to be controversial.that is a given   
There is a possibility if situations are factual that a new world is coming. 
Do you want to stay in the old one if they are. ?? Or do you to possibly want 
to attempt to become knowledgeable of them. ???/  New situations may up set 
your apple cart. If so that is the way it goes sometimes. I'm sorry a sheep 
skin did not come with a guarantee that I know of. 

   One or two such posts I could overlook> 
> but Jack has been posting quite prolifically  and the general
> anger and nastiness of his posts have caused me several times
> to seriously consider killfiling him.

>    REPLY   Who elected you GOD. ?   GET it done do not talk about it as you 
> are. But be prepared for reactions to your actions. 

> Jack may have something revolutionary, he may not. But he is
> certainly not creating any good impressions with his continual
> anger and insults. He is being an outstandingly bad publicist.

>    REPLY    We use the  term  evolutionary  and THose are only reactions to 
> what appears to be arrogant actions as this one is. The fact is bottom line 
> if new evolutionary situations exist, current bases of knowledge of the 
> current aspects of those situations will be totally obsolete. 

> Personally, I think it's probably past time for our esteemed
> list owner & moderator (Hi, Bill. Are you listening in? <grin>)
> to step in and require Jack to tone down his approach to a more
> acceptable level or, if Jack fails to comply with such a
> reasonable request, to ban him from Vortex.

>    REPLY   I'm sorry  but if new technologies exist your world is going to 
> totally change wheather you like it or not. That is called progress which 
> is what evolution is all about 



> Just my five cents worth.
> Alan
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/16/0=
3 5:27:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, alansch zipworld.com.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Well, fellow Vortexians, w=
hat do you say,&nbsp; is he crazy, or so<BR>
&gt; advanced that poor simpletons like us can't understand him?</FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&=
nbsp;&nbsp; When you are confronted with new totally different situations at=
tempting to&nbsp; Understand them&nbsp; requires a skeptical&nbsp; open mind=
.&nbsp; When someone is attempting to present something that basically does=20=
not exist.&nbsp; From experence&nbsp; the vasy majority of time people react=
 just the opposite,&nbsp; with skeptical closed and narrow minded judgmental=
 attitudes. Because they have been subjected to conformaty only teachings is=
 the reason . That process which is&nbsp; the current standard of teaching i=
n our EDU&gt; system does not allow for creative and free thinking or open m=
inded investigation&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>when being presented with new possibilities<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Crazy or not... Moot point. But=
 Jack is certainly outspoken to<BR>
a fault and damned rude to anyone who dares say anything he can<BR>
construe as disagreement.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND=
-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B=
LOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Combative&nbsp; out sp=
oken reactions such as Tom's in regards to presentations will get reactions=20=
in return as it is in any case. I present people react. When they react with=
 judgement conclusions and not investgative attitudes. I'm going to react to=
 those actions&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At least one list member (jonff=
i) has announced he is leaving<BR>
the list, apparently because (I deduce) of Jack's rudeness and<BR>
outspokenness.<BR>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Did he investigate before he did&nbsp; NO&nbsp; He arrive=
d at a conclusion using an assumption. The exact same thing your doing. </FO=
NT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAM=
ILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The general tone of Jack's p=
osts to the group have been<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #00=
00ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
extremely controversial, disagreeable and, much of the time,<BR>
actively unpleasant. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; New situations are going to be controversial.that i=
s a given&nbsp;&nbsp; There is a possibility if situations are factual that=20=
a new world is coming. Do you want to stay in the old one if they are. ?? Or=
 do you to possibly want to attempt to become knowledgeable of them. ???/&nb=
sp; New situations may up set your apple cart. If so that is the way it goes=
 sometimes. I'm sorry a sheep skin did not come with a guarantee that I know=
 of. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; One or two such=
 posts I could overlook<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff=
 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
but Jack has been posting quite prolifically&nbsp; and the general<BR>
anger and nastiness of his posts have caused me several times<BR>
to seriously consider killfiling him.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
Who elected you GOD. ?&nbsp;&nbsp; GET it done do not talk about it as you a=
re. But be prepared for reactions to your actions. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FAC=
E=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack may have something revolut=
ionary, he may not. But he is<BR>
certainly not creating any good impressions with his continual<BR>
anger and insults. He is being an outstandingly bad publicist.</FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; We use the&nbsp; term&nbsp; evolutionary&nbsp; and THose are only reac=
tions to what appears to be arrogant actions as this one is. The fact is bot=
tom line if new evolutionary situations exist, current bases of knowledge of=
 the current aspects of those situations will be totally obsolete. </FONT><F=
ONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Personally, I think it's probably past time for our esteeme=
d<BR>
list owner &amp; moderator (Hi, Bill. Are you listening in? &lt;grin&gt;)<BR=
>
to step in and require Jack to tone down his approach to a more<BR>
acceptable level or, if Jack fails to comply with such a<BR>
reasonable request, to ban him from Vortex.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" s=
tyle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ari=
al" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm sorry&nbsp; but if new t=
echnologies exist your world is going to totally change wheather you like it=
 or not. That is called progress which is what evolution is all about </FONT=
><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMIL=
Y=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Just my five cents worth.<BR>
Alan<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 08:49:20 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <36.398c7fc4.2b811a9e aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:47:26 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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       He wants to play OK we will play.       Can you be specific for the 
new comer. ? It is called investigating so new knowledge can possibly be 
learned. Which is something you do not apparently do because you must know 
all there is to know?  You will probably tells us you do if we ask you   

Because that is a  small closed and narrow minded judgmental attitude your 
displaying. So  What is someone to think.?    Your pompous opinionated only 
what I know is correct no investigating statement is going cause an automatic 
reaction.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 10:09:49 2003
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Message-ID: <20030216180805.27253.qmail bjork.linkline.com>
From: drjohnschiller linkline.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Is this man psychotic?
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:08:05 GMT
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To whom it may concern: 

It saddens me that so many of you, who devote such noble efforts towards the 
investigation of these important sciences must contend with such  
viciousness, arrogance and disregard for basic courtesy and professionalism 
as has been demonstrated recently by one of your "fellow" posters. 

It is not surprising that you may be wondering if this man is psychotic.   I 
have watched many of you,  struggling dearly to maintain your composure and 
open minds, to engage this man in an intelligent,  clear and responsible 
dialogue.   I commend you for your efforts, and I certainly expect that many 
of you have suffered your own experiences of rejection due to your choices 
to pursue the Cold Fusion field. 

"Psychotic"  is not exactly the definition that this man would fall under.  
What seems more likely in this case is that this person  would be considered 
as having a Delusional Disorder.  "Delusions" are described as "erroneous 
beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or 
experiences.  Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g., 
persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose)." 

The appropriate Subtype of the Delusional Disorder, as you might surmise, is 
the Grandiose Type.   Again, quoting from the DSM-IV,  "This subtype applies 
when the central theme of the delusion is the conviction of having some 
great (but unrecognized) talent or insight or having made some important 
discovery.   The individual may have the delusion of having a special 
relationship with a prominent person." 

As ill persons often do,  this one has a second illness that is apparent 
from his dialogues: The Antisocial Personality Disorder.  You may find some 
of these definitions to be helpful:  "Deceitfulness, as indicated by 
repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or 
pleasure;  irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated 
physical [or verbal] fights or assaults;  lack of remorse, as indicated by 
being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen 
from another." 

On a practical note,  a person with these sort of personality disorders 
would find it most difficult to sustain meaningful and long-lasting 
relationships, particularly in business ventures - as many of you may 
already have discovered.   I commend you for your work in this field and in 
your diligence to sort out the trash from the treasure. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 10:22:45 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <9c.2dde5850.2b813053 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:20:03 EST
Subject: Ft. Mead where the NSA is 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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      The fact is if  my presentations are  factual there will be adverse 
drmatic effect's  that hammer to pieces a great many individuals bases of 
knowledge. Because in many cases if factual they are no longer the experts 
they thought they were.

    In the late 30's Tesla and Einstein worked together on teletransportation 
 that is contained in the deep basement at FT. Mead they have a situation 
that can transport a solid state object from one place to another but say an 
apple comes through all screwed up because it is a living organism.

 The process is basically is like stepping into a different  dimension and 
stepping out of it.   That is known knowledge but if you have never 
investigated anything and only used books for you base of knowledge you 
probably do not know that. It has been shown on documentary's that use film 
that was taken in the 30's. 

 WE are not advancing as a civilization because Our EDU. Does NOT  encourage 
young bright minds to reach say Einstein and Tesla levels. They want them in 
a box that they keep the key for.   People at those level have existed there 
has to be a reason why the do not today to any extent. Plus inventions that 
could possibly solve many problems are often  bought by big Corp. that may 
effect they feel adversely and put on the shelf. 

 AC Spark plug that is now Delphi tested Art Fishers Carb. That achieved say 
70 mpg in the early 60's after the oil CO bought it from  Art in the late 50' 
And art has not been seen since 61' . My brother who died in 67' worked in 
their  world HQ model shop and worked with it and tested it in there engine 
dyno Lab.  Now I will throw this at you.     


        20 years ago    GM was shown a new combustion platform concept and 
spent millions on it but could not perfect it. Because they did not want to 
pay the inventor for the next step info. But instead because of their not 
invented here syndrome backward thinking wasted a great deal of money 
attempting to Dev. the platform. What do you except from GM ?  I understand 
Toyota came the closest to perfecting the concept but did not. 

Back then you could have breathed the exhaust without harm to you. Because 
the fuel would have been  burned to a level that no converter would have been 
required. The platform a 2 cycle 4 cycle concept was a 6 CY.  that would have 
provided  8 CY. Power and would have had 4 CY. mileage. That concept now can 
be a closed loop system with no exhaust and the only residue would be clean 
carbon that your lawn would love.

  When we showed the Chief Scientist of the Delphi Corp. the diagram during 
an  advanced Tech. demonstration beyond anything they were knowledgeable 
about. He recognized it. A ranking City official at the time attended the 
meeting with us at their world HQ. Tech. center. That concept alone would 
solve our current requirements of needing foreign oil. THE concept is for 
sale. No prototype presently exists. Contact me if your interested at 810 618 
9234.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 11:17:11 2003
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Reply-To: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
From: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <a05111b13ba7501c8606f [64.61.199.242]>
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 12:14:41 -0700
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Anytime someone causes people to leave
a list .. They should be looked at closely
by the list moderator ..
.. And appropriate action taken.

Jack's Point of view could be tolerated If:

    He stopped Attacking everybody's perceived character.
    (This is what drives people away .. there is "NO" room
     in any list, especially this one, for this type of
assault)

    Clean up the grammar and spelling .. That's what spell
    checkers are for .. Also proof-reading .. NOBODY is too
    busy to proof-read their own material.

I look forward to reading this list EVERYDAY.  I like
listening
to the opinions (Right or Wrong) of all of you.  There is a
sincere, intelligent attempt to resolve real problems that
exist in the world today.  I am not a scientist or engineer
and do not contribute to the discussions because of this.

I, and I suspect many other lurkers, would like to see this
list continue, even grow .. I do miss some of the members
that have dropped out in the last year, or so.

I do consider Jack's attacks to be malicious and as a
result he should not be allowed to contribute .. To this
list.

There are many other lists that would welcome him.

Just my 2-cents worth  ..DonW..

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

p.s. I posted this earlier .. It still stands!

http://www.phact.org/e/z/JackCarey-sept.htm

"...Let's try to sum up some of the outrageous claims Jack
Carey has made in last few months about supposed devices
developed by Confidential Technology in Flint, MI "

http://www.phact.org/e/
http://www.phact.org/

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 1:53 AM
Subject: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
>
> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  is he crazy, or
so
> advanced that poor simpletons like us can't understand
him?
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 11:17:16 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <ae.3920fb21.2b813cc6 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:13:10 EST
Subject: Re: Knowledge comes from investigating not a book. 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JCarey9622@aol.com
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In a message dated 2/16/2003 9:26:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

> How about A/C current the bases for the industrial revolution how was it 
> discovered?  It appears someone investigated. Was it Edison that 
> accomplished 
> that. NO   It was Tesla. using Faraday's and Hertz's work. A/C current  
> Industrial 3 phase power is what the Henry Ford use to built his Co. 
> Without 
> it he could not have accomplished that feat. Could he accomplished that 
> with 
> Edison's DC

Thank you for the advice.  I have always highly respected Tesla, Edison, and 
Ford for their pioneering work and inventions.  Ford even used his profits to 
build Green Field Village in Detroit which displays inventions and old world 
crafts.   Ford and Disney are some of the few great inventors and companies, 
that shared their profits with society to truly make a better world for us 
all.   

I learned to think for myself by learning logic and computer programming 
which teaches engineers to think procedurally or invent.  Many schools teach 
and reward students for wrote learning or data driven learning and punish 
them for procedural or creative learning.   Another good tool is meditation 
and envisioning ideas in the mind as Tesla did to solve problems rather than 
using paper and pencil.   Writing may have been a de-evolutionary idea. 

Thank you for your outline of potential future energy trends, since you have 
given me more confidence in the future, which is very important for us all to 
encourage in others.

I also admire the Viking cultures, which pioneered the American Exploration.  
There are Celtic and Viking ruins in the Americas, which show ancient 
proto-European cultures that once live here.   I am planning to relocate to 
Minnesota, if matters improve.  The social and technological trends in 
Minnesota are very positive, space age and new age, which I believe are the 
trends of the future.  I thank you for the support. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/16/2003 9:26:35 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">How about A/C current the bases=
 for the industrial revolution how was it <BR>
discovered?&nbsp; It appears someone investigated. Was it Edison that accomp=
lished <BR>
that. NO&nbsp;&nbsp; It was Tesla. using Faraday's and Hertz's work. A/C cur=
rent&nbsp; <BR>
Industrial 3 phase power is what the Henry Ford use to built his Co. Without=
 <BR>
it he could not have accomplished that feat. Could he accomplished that with=
 <BR>
Edison's DC</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the advice.&nbsp; I have always highly respected Tesla, Edison=
, and Ford for their pioneering work and inventions.&nbsp; Ford even used hi=
s profits to build Green Field Village in Detroit which displays inventions=20=
and old world crafts.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ford and Disney are some of the few great=20=
inventors and companies, that shared their profits with society to truly mak=
e a better world for us all.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I learned to think for myself by learning logic and computer programming whi=
ch teaches engineers to think procedurally or invent.&nbsp; Many schools tea=
ch and reward students for wrote learning or data driven learning and punish=
 them for procedural or creative learning.&nbsp;&nbsp; Another good tool is=20=
meditation and envisioning ideas in the mind as Tesla did to solve problems=20=
rather than using paper and pencil.&nbsp;&nbsp; Writing may have been a de-e=
volutionary idea. <BR>
<BR>
Thank you for your outline of potential future energy trends, since you have=
 given me more confidence in the future, which is very important for us all=20=
to encourage in others.<BR>
<BR>
I also admire the Viking cultures, which pioneered the American Exploration.=
&nbsp; There are Celtic and Viking ruins in the Americas, which show ancient=
 proto-European cultures that once live here.&nbsp;&nbsp; I am planning to r=
elocate to Minnesota, if matters improve.&nbsp; The social and technological=
 trends in Minnesota are very positive, space age and new age, which I belie=
ve are the trends of the future.&nbsp; I thank you for the support. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 11:31:19 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <163.1bed2194.2b81402b aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:27:39 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  

Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if 
your ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.  
 Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned for the well 
being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, when 
corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the government 
and the popular media.   I have benefited from these discussions which are 
simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps they are not 
meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Well, fellow Vortexians, what d=
o you say,&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if y=
our ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned fo=
r the well being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, wh=
en corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the governmen=
t and the popular media.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have benefited from these discussions=
 which are simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps t=
hey are not meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_163.1bed2194.2b81402b_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 11:59:51 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <31.34237d57.2b8146fc aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:56:44 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JCarey9622@aol.com
CC: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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In a message dated 2/16/2003 10:01:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

> Your not on that level. or anywhere near it

You are correct. I am an amateur hack energy engineer and debutante, and I 
just like to jump from mountain top to mountain top looking at the trends and 
understanding them to promote new business ventures, whereas a true engineer 
and inventor focuses on the details more than I do.    I am more of a simple 
business person and idealist, who just understands the ideas of energy 
technologies just enough to speak with engineers and inventors, to hire them 
and get the job done, or promote new ideas for others to pursue.  My 
profession was a computer science teacher in my college days, and is 
presently a  science fiction writer and business person, so that my talents 
lie more in the general communication and negotiation of ideas, rather than 
in the very specific fine tuning of them in a formal and mathematical manner 
as scientists are required to do. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/16/2003 10:01:24 AM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Your not on that level. or anyw=
here near it</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
You are correct. I am an amateur hack energy engineer and debutante, and I j=
ust like to jump from mountain top to mountain top looking at the trends and=
 understanding them to promote new business ventures, whereas a true enginee=
r and inventor focuses on the details more than I do.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am=
 more of a simple business person and idealist, who just understands the ide=
as of energy technologies just enough to speak with engineers and inventors,=
 to hire them and get the job done, or promote new ideas for others to pursu=
e.&nbsp; My profession was a computer science teacher in my college days, an=
d is presently a&nbsp; science fiction writer and business person, so that m=
y talents lie more in the general communication and negotiation of ideas, ra=
ther than in the very specific fine tuning of them in a formal and mathemati=
cal manner as scientists are required to do. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <a8.186dadbd.2b814837 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:01:59 EST
Subject: Re: Is this man psychotic? THe writer of this  is a God wanna be 
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In a message dated 2/16/03 1:10:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
drjohnschiller linkline.com writes:


> To whom it may concern: 
> 
> It saddens me that so many of you, who devote such noble efforts towards 
> the 
> investigation of these important sciences must contend with such  
> viciousness, arrogance and disregard for basic courtesy and professionalism 
> 
> as has been demonstrated recently by one of your "fellow" posters. 

>    REPLY    Has the Elite cutting edge Russian scientific community that 
> makes there american counter parts appear as fools in comparision. Ever 
> included your photo on the front cover of one of there publications. I just 
> sent the front cover of one with my photo on it .   Your passing judgement 
> before investigating.  Where do you get off.?   Plus  Your totally 
> contradicting yourself. Because your not investigating 

> It is not surprising that you may be wondering if this man is psychotic.   I 
> 
> have watched many of you,  struggling dearly to maintain your composure and 
> 
> open minds, to engage this man in an intelligent,  clear and responsible 
> dialogue.   I commend you for your efforts, and I certainly expect that 
> many 
> of you have suffered your own experiences of rejection due to your choices 
> to pursue the Cold Fusion field. 

>      REPLY  Open Minds  Please all i see are totally closed and narrow 
> minds. Cold Fusion can function and Gene Mallove knows It.   But I know of 
> no one on the planet that make it function besides us. And he knows that 
> to.   But it is far down the list  unless Gene want to pony up some large 
> dollars.  Otherwise he can eat it for all I care. But he was the only one 
outside this group that understood the advanced clean Nuke reactor Tech. that 
I sent him. That fits in a 5 Gal bucket. That I have offered to send files on 
 but 99.99999999% my call is  none of you would have clue one how to grasp. 

> "Psychotic"  is not exactly the definition that this man would fall under.  
> What seems more likely in this case is that this person  would be 
> considered 
> as having a Delusional Disorder.  "Delusions" are described as "erroneous 
> beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or 
> experiences.  Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g., 
> persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose)." 

>      REPLY   Thank you I wonder what was wrong with me. He has looked into 
> his crystal ball and came away with a no investigating conclusions  Would 
> you share with us how you preformed that feat because as far as I know ONLY 
> total know it all arrogant fools are that ignorant to do that.   

> The appropriate Subtype of the Delusional Disorder, as you might surmise, is 
> 
> the Grandiose Type.   Again, quoting from the DSM-IV,  "This subtype 
> applies 
> when the central theme of the delusion is the conviction of having some 
> great (but unrecognized) talent or insight or having made some important 
> discovery.   The individual may have the delusion of having a special 
> relationship with a prominent person." 

>     REPLY I"M a millionaire business man in my own right. Do you want the 
> No. to my 3 stores in two different citys. ? 

> As ill persons often do,  this one has a second illness that is apparent 
> from his dialogues: The Antisocial Personality Disorder.  You may find some 
> 
> of these definitions to be helpful:  "Deceitfulness, as indicated by 
> repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or 
> pleasure;  irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated 
> physical [or verbal] fights or assaults;  lack of remorse, as indicated by 
> being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen 
> from another." 
>       REPLY   This person appears to be comsumed with himself and his giant 
> know it all ego that tells him he can see and deterimine  what exact 
> situations are without conducting an investigation. ARE you GOD because he 
> is the only I know that could possibly do that. Or are you just a GOD wanna 
> be? 

> On a practical note,  a person with these sort of personality disorders 
> would find it most difficult to sustain meaningful and long-lasting 
> relationships, particularly in business ventures - as many of you may 
> already have discovered.   I commend you for your work in this field and in 
> 
> your diligence to sort out the trash from the treasure. 
> 
>       I have been married for 35 years and my wife probably makes double 
what you do . Do you want to compare W2's?


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/16/0=
3 1:10:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, drjohnschiller linkline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">To whom it may concern: <BR>
<BR>
It saddens me that so many of you, who devote such noble efforts towards the=
 <BR>
investigation of these important sciences must contend with such&nbsp; <BR>
viciousness, arrogance and disregard for basic courtesy and professionalism=20=
<BR>
as has been demonstrated recently by one of your "fellow" posters. </FONT><F=
ONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; Has the Elite cutting edge Russian scientific community that makes the=
re american counter parts appear as fools in comparision. Ever included your=
 photo on the front cover of one of there publications. I just sent the fron=
t cover of one with my photo on it .&nbsp;&nbsp; Your passing judgement befo=
re investigating.&nbsp; Where do you get off.?&nbsp;&nbsp; Plus&nbsp; Your t=
otally contradicting yourself. Because your not investigating </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">It is not surprising that you may be wondering if this man=20=
is psychotic.&nbsp;&nbsp; I <BR>
have watched many of you,&nbsp; struggling dearly to maintain your composure=
 and <BR>
open minds, to engage this man in an intelligent,&nbsp; clear and responsibl=
e <BR>
dialogue.&nbsp;&nbsp; I commend you for your efforts, and I certainly expect=
 that many <BR>
of you have suffered your own experiences of rejection due to your choices <=
BR>
to pursue the Cold Fusion field. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&=
nbsp; Open Minds&nbsp; Please all i see are totally closed and narrow minds.=
 Cold Fusion can function and Gene Mallove knows It.&nbsp;&nbsp; But I know=20=
of no one on the planet that make it function besides us. And he knows that=20=
to.&nbsp;&nbsp; But it is far down the list&nbsp; unless Gene want to pony u=
p some large dollars.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE>Otherwise he can eat it for all I care. But he was the only one=
 outside this group that understood the advanced clean Nuke reactor Tech. th=
at I sent him. That fits in a 5 Gal bucket. That I have offered to send file=
s on&nbsp; but 99.99999999% my call is&nbsp; none of you would have clue one=
 how to grasp. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">"Psychotic"&nbsp; is not exactl=
y the definition that this man would fall under.&nbsp; <BR>
What seems more likely in this case is that this person&nbsp; would be consi=
dered <BR>
as having a Delusional Disorder.&nbsp; "Delusions" are described as "erroneo=
us <BR>
beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or <BR>
experiences.&nbsp; Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g., <BR>
persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose)." </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you I wonder what was wrong with me. He has looked into hi=
s crystal ball and came away with a no investigating conclusions&nbsp; Would=
 you share with us how you preformed that feat because as far as I know ONLY=
 total know it all arrogant fools are that ignorant to do that.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">The appropriate Subtype of the Delusional Disorder, as you=20=
might surmise, is <BR>
the Grandiose Type.&nbsp;&nbsp; Again, quoting from the DSM-IV,&nbsp; "This=20=
subtype applies <BR>
when the central theme of the delusion is the conviction of having some <BR>
great (but unrecognized) talent or insight or having made some important <BR=
>
discovery.&nbsp;&nbsp; The individual may have the delusion of having a spec=
ial <BR>
relationship with a prominent person." </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY I"M a=20=
millionaire business man in my own right. Do you want the No. to my 3 stores=
 in two different citys. ? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">As ill persons often do,&nbsp;=20=
this one has a second illness that is apparent <BR>
from his dialogues: The Antisocial Personality Disorder.&nbsp; You may find=20=
some <BR>
of these definitions to be helpful:&nbsp; "Deceitfulness, as indicated by <B=
R>
repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or <BR=
>
pleasure;&nbsp; irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated <B=
R>
physical [or verbal] fights or assaults;&nbsp; lack of remorse, as indicated=
 by <BR>
being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen <BR=
>
from another." <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; This person appears to be c=
omsumed with himself and his giant know it all ego that tells him he can see=
 and deterimine&nbsp; what exact situations are without conducting an invest=
igation. ARE you GOD because he is the only I know that could possibly do th=
at. Or are you just a GOD wanna be? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">On a practical note,&nbsp; a person with these sort of pers=
onality disorders <BR>
would find it most difficult to sustain meaningful and long-lasting <BR>
relationships, particularly in business ventures - as many of you may <BR>
already have discovered.&nbsp;&nbsp; I commend you for your work in this fie=
ld and in <BR>
your diligence to sort out the trash from the treasure. <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have been married for 35 years=
 and my wife probably makes double what you do . Do you want to compare W2's=
?<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Message-ID: <006101c2d5f9$aaf74520$6501a8c0 Home>
Reply-To: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
From: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:26:14 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim BH.G9." <esot aeons.plus.com>
To: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?


> Hello all the genuine people here;
>
> Thanks to those who have spoken out about this miscreant.
I tried to exit
> this list but couldn't so I routed all mail from him to
the Recycle Bin. I
> hope we can get back to normal now.
>
> I'm not into CF much but find other discussions
interesting and helpful to
> my research into other uses for scalars.
>
> I also don't contribute as some of you leave me way behind
in the things
> your doing, so I play the wallflower as well.
>
> Bye for now.
>
> Regards
>
> Jim BH.G9
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DonW [mailto:dwiegel attbi.com]
> Sent: 16 February 2003 19:15
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
>
>
> Anytime someone causes people to leave
> a list .. They should be looked at closely
> by the list moderator ..
> .. And appropriate action taken.
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 12:41:41 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <e6.35fe4d0c.2b81505b aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:36:43 EST
Subject: Fwd: Infinite Energy verification in there words of the phase conversion tech. 
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
Message-ID: <10f.1e8f8e23.2b814f44 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 15:32:04 EST
Subject: Infinite Energy verification in there words of the phase conversion tech. 
To: vortex-l eskimo
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Here it is from KEN from Infinite """""""""'
> 
> 
> What I can say clearly for Wayne's sake is that despite just a visual
> inspection of the garage wiring which was not totally verified, he did
> demonstrate the converter running a 1 HP drill press in idle, a supposed 5
> HP air compressor running at 160 psig, and a 3 phase 2kW arc welder in
> actual use on his welding table; the fluorescent lights in the garage did
> not even flicker, and actually seemed to pulsate brighter at a half cycle
> per second rate.     
_________________________-
  Reply  this is the world that the Phase converter technology creates which 
is all together different that yours  And your math will not explain at all. 
To be correct The Drill Press requires a 2 1/2 and the Air. Com. was powered 
by a 3 HP but requires a 5 HP. In your world.

  What he is saying is not possible in your world  According to your math 
from a 110 V feed. With only a total 9 AMP draw that was all that was 
necessary to accomplish what he described.     Ken also contradicted himself 
by saying his meter reads were inconclusive.

Naturally they would be because they did not conform to what normal readings 
would be. HELLO. Plus he did not realize what he was saying in his 
description it appears but I caught it because of my understanding of the 
totally new process that is occurring. 

Ken Again ""     He then disconnected the converter and ran just a 1kW,
> 110VAC single phase arc welder and the fluorescent lights almost went out  
> when Wayne struck an arc.  

 REPLY  this is how your known electrical world functions       CASE CLOSED 
CLAIMS VERIFIED  I'm sorry you 
> cannot explain the new process. You may want to study some Tesla. after you 
> throw away your electrical theory books.  Next Skeptic Please  


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Here it is from KEN from=20=
Infinite """""""""'<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What I can say clearly for Wayn=
e's sake is that despite just a visual<BR>
inspection of the garage wiring which was not totally verified, he did<BR>
demonstrate the converter running a 1 HP drill press in idle, a supposed 5<B=
R>
HP air compressor running at 160 psig, and a 3 phase 2kW arc welder in<BR>
actual use on his welding table; the fluorescent lights in the garage did<BR=
>
not even flicker, and actually seemed to pulsate brighter at a half cycle<BR=
>
per second rate.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
_________________________-<BR>
&nbsp; Reply&nbsp; this is the world that the Phase converter technology cre=
ates which is all together different that yours&nbsp; And your math will not=
 explain at all. To be correct The Drill Press requires a 2 1/2 and the Air.=
 Com. was powered by a 3 HP but requires a 5 HP. In your world.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; What he is saying is not possible in your world&nbsp; According to yo=
ur math from a 110 V feed. With only a total 9 AMP draw that was all that wa=
s necessary to accomplish what he described.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken als=
o contradicted himself by saying his meter reads were inconclusive.<BR>
<BR>
Naturally they would be because they did not conform to what normal readings=
 would be. HELLO. Plus he did not realize what he was saying in his descript=
ion it appears but I caught it because of my understanding of the totally ne=
w process that is occurring. <BR>
<BR>
Ken Again ""&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He then disconnected the converter and=20=
ran just a 1kW,<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">110VAC single phase arc welder=20=
and the fluorescent lights almost went out&nbsp; when Wayne struck an arc.&n=
bsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZ=
E=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> REPLY&nbsp; this is how you=
r known electrical world functions&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CASE=20=
CLOSED CLAIMS VERIFIED&nbsp; I'm sorry you </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" s=
tyle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ari=
al" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
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e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">cannot explain the new process. You may want to study some=20=
Tesla. after you throw away your electrical theory books.&nbsp; Next Skeptic=
 Please&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 13:00:15 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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At 7:00 AM 2/16/3, Jones Beene wrote:

>Artic windmills sounds like a concept that would please everybody if the
>price was right....vast areas of inexpensive land, good winds, few
>neighbors, not to mention a great "hink sink" that unfortunately wouldn't
>be needed for windpower, but nevertheless...You haven't shied away from
>away from "ballpark" cost estimations in the past.


I do not presently have any data to project costs 10 to 20 years from now.
In fact, it does not exist.  My statements are based upon the fact that
wind energy cost has dropped by 80 percent in the past 20 years, and can be
expected to continue to decline, especially if new locations with high wind
speeds can be utilized.  I have reason to believe Alaska offers just that
possibility - to provide large quantities of high energy yield terrain.
One of the problems is a lack of wind data for the locstions of greatest
opportunity.  Another of course is the lack of forsight to see how remote
windmills in difficult remote areas can be of use to anybody.  When wind
energy is cheap enough, it will eventually beat nuclear as the energy
source for hydrogen production.  Hydrogen can be shipped to the "lower 48"
economically by pipeline.  Perhaps nanocarbon hydrogen storge developments
will permit shipping as well.

Many wind projects have failed in Alaska, often due to catastophic turbine
failure.  I believe recent developments in materials and lubricants, as
well as commercial windmill research carried out in Antarctica, will allow
many of the problems which have caused turbine failures to be overcome.

It is interesting that extraordinarily high wind areas have been considerd
bad for wind energy due to increased need for feathering time, and due to
the tendency for catastrophic failure.

I had the good fortune to work in the Anchorage office of Boeing Computer
Services back in the 70's when the Boeing Consulting Division did studies
of wind energy feasibility for the State of Alaska.  Boeing placed
anemometers in a number of promising places.  Wind data is not normally
obtained for mountain top locations due to the difficulty of placing and
retrieving them, and due to the fact they tend to disappear by being blown
away or getting buried in snow.  As I recall, Boeing did get wind rose data
for one mountain top location.   It was a comparatively poor location due
to the need for feathering, and due to the high expense of placing and
maintaining a windmill there.  However, I was struck by the fact that the
energy potential if feathering was not needed was large indeed.  In
addition to this information, I learned from a friend who was stationed on
a mountain top DEW line radar station for a couple years that the wind just
never seemed to stop howling there.  Unfortunately (or fortunately,
depending on your outlook) mountain top wind frequently is above 50 knots,
and sometimes is above 100 knots.  The wind on taller peaks is sometimes
over 200 knots, but still often over 50 knots.  (Keep in mind that the
energy from wind is proportional to the cube of the wind speed.)  From low
altitudes on fairly clear and nearly windless days, snow clouds or
lenticular clouds can often be seen drifting off mountain tops here.  It
looks beautiful and mild mannered from the ground, but the winds that do
this move fairly fast at their high altitudes.

I think if the effort is made to obtain the wind data, and without
consideration of market proximity, land development issues, or feathering
needs, it will be found that Alaska has enormous wind potential, much more
than that required to provide the US energy requirements.

I think very special windmill structures will have to be designed to
optimize energy production in high wind areas.  This means that special
smaller high strength rotors will have to continue in operation when larger
rotors are feathered.  A multiplicity of rotor sizes will have to be
employed simultaneously.

It may well be that rotors designed for very high wind speed use may have
to generate energy in a form useful for storage and later use in
electrolysis, rather than in electric form. This energy may be in the form
of compressed or liquified air, and/or directly in the form of heat that is
pumped into geothermal storage.

Some of this thinking is of course just pie in the sky right now.  However,
wind energy development in the US and worldwide is now taking off.  When it
is cheap enough, it will eventually beat nuclear as the energy source for
hydrogen production.  I have little doubt that the Energy Legacy Plan I
proposed will work well, and that it can be scaled up.  I further have
faith that if the proper wind data for Alaska is obtained, it will be
discovered that a "go to the moon" scale project can permanently relieve us
from the need for fossil fuels.  I believe even a small portion of the
research funds provided for in the Energy Legacy Plan can go a long way
toward evaluating and starting such an initiative.  If we had started this
20 years ago we might be close to getting there now.   Developing wind
energy on Alaska moutaintops is a daunting task, but is certainly much less
challenging than going to the moon.  Meanwhile exploration of ZPE and other
potential energy sources is also provided for in the plan, and these may
ultimately provided the answer.  If not, it is comforting and sensible to
have an achievable alternative, and Alaska wind energy generation provides
just that kind of potential.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Dear Mr Carey, please will you go away and stop cluttering up this forum =
with your highly repetitive, virtually incomprehensible nonsense. We =
have seen many deluded, "difficult", belligerent or bewildered people =
come and go here over the years but you just about take the biscuit for =
sheer volume of postings. Please, please, please no more.

Nick Palmer
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Mr Carey, please will you go away =
and stop=20
cluttering up this forum with your highly repetitive, virtually=20
incomprehensible&nbsp;nonsense. We have seen many deluded, "difficult",=20
belligerent or bewildered people come and go here over the years but you =
just=20
about take the biscuit for sheer volume of postings. Please, please, =
please no=20
more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nick Palmer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 14:02:05 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1eb.2023b43.2b8162e2 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 16:55:46 EST
Subject: If main stream science would work with inventors instead 
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         Of look down on them as they do now.  There might be a possibility 
we would solve our glaring problems and evolve as a civilization. Has anyone 
ever considered that.?   Because main stream science is not solving our 
problems. Because apparently they are letting their road block causing 
restrictive theory only thinking stand in there way.  Whereas inventors do 
not do that,  if they did they would never invent anything as main stream 
does not to speak of.  

We are now going down hill and that process will accelerate dramatically as 
the population increases.  A doubling of that factor in only one generation 
has magnified that fact dramatically. Now we are facing a 33% increase in 20 
years to 8 billion By refusing to do so may cost them dearly. Because if we 
have what we say we have one of our prime directives is to totally discredit 
them for there past and current actions.  

They have given many chances but have totally refused to accept those 
invitations. So that is the is reason we will just ignore them when they will 
be confronted with situations they cannot explain. As is the case with a new 
electrical conversion and conservation technology. Because we need them for 
nothing and never have. I become bored so I look for situations that think 
they know it all and attempt to destroy their little world for them,  but not 
until they become combative. Then they are fair game as some on this list.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 14:22:32 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17b.16442457.2b81684d aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:18:53 EST
Subject: Nick all that I can assume is you have a Tech. background.  
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    Nick  If you have a technical background which is all that I can 
basically assume, because of the nature of your reply. It is not my fought 
you cannot understand new evolutionary new technology situations that have 
been presented . It is our EDU. system's fought they appearently did not 
teach you basically anything. 

If you have a technical background. And you cannot understand i suggest you 
take it up with them not me.  Because they are the ones  that fed you all 
that worthless knowledge, if what we claim is factual. I'm just attempting to 
correct that gross injustice they caused to happen to people with technical 
backgrounds. 

If you investigated you may find that out. But NO that would be to easy. Your 
just makeing  a arm chair quarter back call. Because you have not displayed 
any knowledge that you have any understanding of what has been presented. 
Please those tactics you are attempting are very weak.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 14:56:36 2003
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Nick Palmer:  "Please, please, please no more."

I Agree with Nick and the "MANY OTHERS" who are calling
for the removal of this person from the list.

This person, JCarey, is using nonsensical circular logic and then
attacking "US-ALL" for responding.

As referenced below .. He is attempting to DESTROY our little world.

Bill B .. Are you listening .. This list does not need this type of person
on it.  If he stays "MANY" will Go!

My 2-cents worth ..DonW..
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:55 PM
Subject: If main stream science would work with inventors instead 


||| become bored so I look for situations that think 
||| they know it all and attempt to destroy their little world for them,  but not 
||| until they become combative. Then they are fair game as some on this list.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 15:26:19 2003
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Mr. Mallove was correct about J.Carey, IMO.

If you are using Outlook Express as your Email software, you can filter all
messages from any offensive person with two "clicks". While viewing the
offender, simply click on "message" (top of monitor screen) and then click
on "block sender". Done.

Colin
----- Original Message -----
From: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 5:55 PM
Subject: Remove this person from Vortex-l


> Nick Palmer:  "Please, please, please no more."
>
> I Agree with Nick and the "MANY OTHERS" who are calling
> for the removal of this person from the list.
>
> This person, JCarey, is using nonsensical circular logic and then
> attacking "US-ALL" for responding.
>
> As referenced below .. He is attempting to DESTROY our little world.
>
> Bill B .. Are you listening .. This list does not need this type of person
> on it.  If he stays "MANY" will Go!
>
> My 2-cents worth ..DonW..
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:55 PM
> Subject: If main stream science would work with inventors instead
>
>
> ||| become bored so I look for situations that think
> ||| they know it all and attempt to destroy their little world for them,
but not
> ||| until they become combative. Then they are fair game as some on this
list.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 15:37:02 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <40.2bbbd59e.2b8179db aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:33:47 EST
Subject:   Please bill make him go he is making fools of us SCI. types . 
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            You cannot handle new knowledge?  Your cop an attitude in your 
reply I'm not going lay down and take it and neither would you.  I'm sorry it 
appears you cannot explain what I present or grasp it . Are you offering  new 
knowledge  NO that i can see.

  Your just whining Please make him go away bill  he is making fools out of 
all the ENG. and Phy. WE are supposed to know it all. Because  that is what 
they told us when they gave us our sheep skins   If that happens our giant 
ego's will be totally crushed    And we will be no body's  and no one will 
listen to us anymore  and all our non tech fiends will laugh at us for 
letting the EDU. system fool us.   

 NOW  that is what coming and do not think it is not or you would be sadly 
mistaken. Because the time has come for the arrogant ones to go. Because they 
accomplish about zero. And just get in the way and impede progress. of people 
attempting to create a better world. For not just a few but for everyone 
because they have a responsibility to those that follow them.  As your 
forefathers had a responsibility to you they fulfilled      This way you can 
prepare for it. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 15:52:19 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <15f.1bef9a98.2b817d13 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:47:31 EST
Subject:  Go good riddence to the ones who just make snide 
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             Remarks about anyone or anything  that  they may not agree with 
or their thinking. .  That may  be positive change situations that  someone 
is  attempting to achieve that will make others lives less demanding by 
relieving them from dramatically rising costs they have to pay just to be 
able to survive   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 16:24:24 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <185.170c5adb.2b8184ed aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:21:01 EST
Subject: Re: Knowledge comes from investigating not a book. 
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  call me i'm in flint michigan  my no is  810  618 9234

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 16:42:08 2003
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:38:02 EST
Subject: May I add Tom 
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         May I add Tom  that if this tech. i presented is  factual  science 
has a total new branch to contend will. That is totally  beyond there 
understanding. Because   No one in 25 years has had clue one even Nobel level 
minds  BTDT  And totally replaces its most important one it has now. Which 
deals with the absolute dominate situation on the planet which is A/C 
current? 

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:27:39 EST
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In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  

Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if 
your ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.  
 Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned for the well 
being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, when 
corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the government 
and the popular media.   I have benefited from these discussions which are 
simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps they are not 
meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,&nbsp; </BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if y=
our ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned fo=
r the well being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, wh=
en corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the governmen=
t and the popular media.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have benefited from these discussions=
 which are simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps t=
hey are not meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <90.328582ab.2b818ac2 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:45:54 EST
Subject: Fwd: May I add Tom  I forgot to say tom called 
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In a message dated 2/16/03 7:38:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622 
writes:


> 
>      I forgot Tom   called  our prime Tech to investigate  So his 
> conclusions may have been derived from those investigations.   
> 
>          May I add Tom  that if this tech. i presented is  factual  science 
> has a total new branch to contend will. That is totally  beyond there 
> understanding. Because   No one in 25 years has had clue one even Nobel 
> level minds  BTDT  And totally replaces its most important one it has now. 
> Which deals with the absolute dominate situation on the planet which is A/C 
> current? ---------
> 
> In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
> 
> >> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  
> 
> Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if 
> your ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or 
> pseudoscientific.   Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and 
> concerned for the well being of others and society, which are rare traits 
> these days, when corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends 
> in the government and the popular media.   I have benefited from these 
> discussions which are simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, 
> though perhaps they are not meant for this forum which is more formal and 
> scientific. 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/16/0=
3 7:38:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I forgot Tom&nbsp;&nbsp; called&nbsp; our prime Tec=
h to investigate&nbsp; So his conclusions may have been derived from those i=
nvestigations.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; May I add Tom&nbsp; that if=
 this tech. i presented is&nbsp; factual&nbsp; science has a total new branc=
h to contend will. That is totally&nbsp; beyond there understanding. Because=
&nbsp;&nbsp; No one in 25 years has had clue one even Nobel level minds&nbsp=
; BTDT&nbsp; And totally replaces its most important one it has now. Which d=
eals with the absolute dominate situation on the planet which is A/C current=
? ---------<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metr=
o.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Well, fellow Vortexians, what d=
o you say,&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if y=
our ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned fo=
r the well being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, wh=
en corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the governmen=
t and the popular media.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have benefited from these discussions=
 which are simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps t=
hey are not meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:38:02 EST
Subject: May I add Tom 
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         May I add Tom  that if this tech. i presented is  factual  science 
has a total new branch to contend will. That is totally  beyond there 
understanding. Because   No one in 25 years has had clue one even Nobel level 
minds  BTDT  And totally replaces its most important one it has now. Which 
deals with the absolute dominate situation on the planet which is A/C 
current? 

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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <163.1bed2194.2b81402b aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:27:39 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
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In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

> Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,  

Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if 
your ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.  
 Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned for the well 
being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, when 
corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the government 
and the popular media.   I have benefited from these discussions which are 
simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps they are not 
meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:54:20 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>Well, fellow Vortexians, what do you say,&nbsp; </BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Part of being normal and sane is being daring enough to be honest, even if y=
our ideas are speculative, ahead of their time, wrong, or pseudoscientific.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Obviously Jack is honest, knowledgeable, daring and concerned fo=
r the well being of others and society, which are rare traits these days, wh=
en corruption, greed, and deceit have become popular trends in the governmen=
t and the popular media.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have benefited from these discussions=
 which are simply informal engineering brainstorming chats, though perhaps t=
hey are not meant for this forum which is more formal and scientific. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 17:16:58 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Satisfying Jack Careys emotional need for persecution thread.
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 20:30:38 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMCEINDHAA.knagel gis.net>
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Hi All.

As I predicted a few days ago, Jack has goaded and trolled
the list with great fervor, and has been rewarded with a
rich new vein of persecution. It's Jack and Jack alone;
standing tall against the cruel and stupid world which
cannot understand his great genius, etc etc. 

The first few posts were entertaining, in a sort of
"Frankenstein computer god instant plastic surgery secret"
sort of way, but at this point he's progressed to
what can best be characterized as a denial of service
attack. You've been feeding the trolls, Vortex, and
they have grown... 

There is no need to banish Mr. Carey. The moderator
need only switch him to vortex-bl, which is the appropriate
venue for him. So how about it Bill? Lest more of us
vote with our feet.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:49 PM
To: Vortex
Subject: Satisfying Jack Careys emotional need for persecution thread.


As Jack has such a strong need here, I figured I'd
start a special thread for him. Please either switch
to vortex-bl list or post under this thread...

K.

"The Vision of Christ that thou dost see
  Is my vision's greatest enemy."
	-W. Blake-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 18:44:24 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <148.abbfe79.2b81a54a aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 21:39:06 EST
Subject: Re: Lets see if this bends your mind or makes  sense 
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In a message dated 2/15/03 2:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

<<   AS far as your 
 profession as an EE I'm sorry frank you were taught totally backwards 
Because 
 they used a theory first set of teaching rules. Instead of the correct way 
 which is invention based 
 
   Call me  but forget basically every thing you have been taught >>

If I forget everything that I have been taught I will revert to a baby and 
start crying.
This will not look good at 50.  I don't want to do this.

Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 19:39:01 2003
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Message-ID: <20030217033438.30147.qmail web40410.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:34:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wind machines
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I cant halp but laugh...

Wind power calling nuke old.  :-)

As I about how long windmils have been around.


--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
> Jed Rothwell wrote in support of wind power " Nuclear power was left 
> behind 30 years ago by improvements in other sources  of energy, such 
> as wind power. Nuclear power may seem shiny and new, but it is 
> actually vacuum tube, prop-plane era 1950s technology."
> 
> And Jones Breene responded;
> 
> 
> >Oh yes. More breezy rhetoric, Wind power... so simple, so robust, so 
> >advanced...
> >
> 
> Thanks for giving us the other side of the argument Jones. In all 
> fairness to wind machines, there have been some significant 
> developments in technology in the past 30 years. I have been told 
> that the price has been cut in half.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 20:30:19 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d1.2e612bb.2b81beb8 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:27:36 EST
Subject: Re: Lets see if this bends your mind or makes  sense 
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      frank think about learing new concepts that are fresh and provide new 
purpose  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 22:11:19 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <4a.1838dd0f.2b81d6a7 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 01:09:43 EST
Subject: Main stream science  does not like to here 
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     That there worlds may be coming to an end. I would not like it either. 
But things change and at least there for the better not the worst.  Look at 
it that way. Naturally having ones profession fall out from under them is 
going to hard to take. Especially Electrical Eng. and physicists but some 
always have to go when change comes.

 A 100 years ago the carriage industry was at the end of there run. There is 
totally new medical technologies coming to that will basically cause the kind 
of changes in medicine that will happen with energy. A great deal of physics 
has been totally changed. At least now it will function as operational 
situations. 

  WE have heavy weight out of the country contacts so we will deal with those 
situations first. The US is last.  Naturally I do not care if you believe any 
of this or not. Only one among you actually investigated and I had talked to 
him a year ago. The rest just did not think there worlds would ever change to 
any extent because they had been the same for so long.

 Main stream could never relate to Tesla so when Einstein came along he 
became there salvation from becoming totally ineffective. Well, Tesla has 
came back so to speak for his revenge. And he wants to nail the current 
scientific comm to the cross. My job is to act as the Romans and the Sci. 
Comm is Christ. I agree I should be locked up and the key thrown away.  I 
would like to thank Tom for his comments.

  You will be rewarded in a business sense for you investigative actions. The 
rest will be left out in the cold as far the new knowledge goes. But they 
will enjoy the new products the knowledge creates. Science always has thought 
nothing could change unless they approved. That was a road block that a way 
was figured out how to get around. It is called making business deals. .   .  
   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 22:51:58 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:50:27 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Jack's World
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Jack's World</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm sorry&nbsp; but if
new technologies exist your world is going to totally change wheather
you like it or not. That is called progress which is what evolution is
all about</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br></font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div>It isn't the technology that we are objecting to Jack, it's your
language and your willingness to believe any crack pot theory that you
read on the Internet, or hear at a U F O conference.&nbsp; Then the is
the argument that you and I are having over your refusal to give an
intelligent explanation of what the technology is, and your refusal to
test it properly.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I just finished reading the rest of your posts. You are right,
the world's condition continues to deteriorate, at an increasing rate.
This will be solved in a few years by the return of the King, Yeshua,
who will straighten things out, so don't worry about it.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As far as that your being published by Frolov's magazine, that me
be cause for joy in Jack's World, by he has no credibility on this
list. He published an article by some people who claimed to have
replicated the Searle machine. If they could build a machine which
would levitate your vehicle, power your home, and cure you of every
disease known to medical science, there would be people lined up down
the street waiting to buy it! Instead of arranging for us to see a
prototype, Alexander chose to ignore me. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Meters have been fooled in the past. The water heating test had
the blessing of the late Otto Schmitt, professor emeritus of Physics,
electrical engineering and zoology at the University of Minnesota, a
pioneer in BioPhysics, former head of the Air Borne Instruments
Laboratory, and a member of the National Academy of Science. With
credentials such as this, he is respected by scientists in the real
world. In Jack's World, I suppose that he would be relegated to the
status of a crack pot inventor, because he was after all an E E, in
Jack's World, they, &quot;just don't get it.&quot;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The machines designed by the E E's work very well in the real
world, we install them all the time. Your decision that they don't
work in Jack's World is your problem. They obey certain rules, and all
of the energy that they consume is accounted for. But the rules don't
seem to apply in Jack's World. But that's your problem.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If you can do what you say you can, then my associates are
interested in it. But they are looking to make up for the money that
they lost investing in the last free energy machine. After you get
burnt a few times, you start to get careful. When something appears to
contradict the rules, which are rules because they work, then you want
to see a definitive test, before you invest. A machine which causes
the electricity going in one end, to do 4 times the work that they
normally would,&nbsp; falls in the category of a machine which breaks
the rules.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Then there is teleportation, which may exit in Jack's World, but
there is no evidence that it exists in the real world. What kind of a
kick ass weapons delivery system do you think such a machine would
make? Ditto for transporting material to the front. If the military
types knew how to do it, do you think they would hesitate to use
it?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Have you heard about the glut of automobile manufacturing
capability? What kind of a world beating vehicle, do you think a full
sized SUV with a vaporizing carburetor, that got say 50 MPG, would be?
I've been hearing these stories for years. Do you know were I can buy
one? My friend Phil who is a mechanical engineer, purchased a plan, or
was it a kit from a website like www.137milepergalloncarburator.com .
He has yet to get anything working.</div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 16 22:52:20 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:50:27 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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Jones Breene replies;

>Looks like my spell checker turned itself off for the weekend. 
>Previous message should read:
>
>Horace,
>
>Artic windmills sounds like a concept that would please everybody if 
>the price was right....vast areas of inexpensive land, good winds, 
>few neighbors, not to mention a great "heat sink" that unfortunately 
>wouldn't be needed for windpower, but nevertheless...You haven't 
>shied away from away from "ballpark" cost estimations in the past.
>
>Can you estimate what hydrogen would cost from artic windmills?


Artic windmills! Cool, I LIKE that idea. There are several problems, 
One is the materials necessary to stand up in the frigid conditions. 
Another one is piping the hydrogen down to where we need it. Then, 
there is the problem of the environmentalists, I can hear them 
squacking already.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 00:59:25 2003
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:57:48 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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At 12:50 AM 2/17/3, thomas malloy wrote:

>Artic windmills! Cool, I LIKE that idea. There are several problems,
>One is the materials necessary to stand up in the frigid conditions.


This is not much of a problem.  A great deal has been learned about arctic
windmills.  Oddly, most of those advances were made in the antarctic.
Building an infrastructure to provide all the US energy would of course
require and cause a major evolution of design and development, plus social
adjustment.


>Another one is piping the hydrogen down to where we need it.


This too is not much of a technological problem.  There may be taxation
problems in Canada though.  Also, Canada could become a major wind energy
producer using the same technology, thus might not be motivated to provide
pipeline right of way or lease.   Cryogenic hydrogen shipping is feasible,
but potentially expensive.   Hydrogen liquification certainly would occur
best at minus 40 deg. to minus 70 deg. F. typical of midwinter arctic
nights (some years.)  Perhaps bulk carbon nanotube storage will be
developed for use on ships.


>Then,
>there is the problem of the environmentalists, I can hear them
>squacking already.

Ah yes, politics and permits.  THIS definitely is the major problem.
Ironic isn't it?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 05:04:53 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Cc: <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Accelerated Solenoid  Field Reduction?
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 06:01:17 -0600
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Relativity Question:

If a 1/2 inch diameter (D) "rod" rotating at a router speed of 25,000 RPM (N)
experiences a "g" force
of 14.2e-6*D*N^2 = 4,437 "g"s.

Would rotating a solenoid coil surrounding a AAA dry cell powering the coil winding,
reduce it's pull on a magnet or a ferromagnetic material axially mounted near the end
of the coil, decrease as the coil rotation (router) speed increased?

Fred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 05:22:03 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:19:57 EST
Subject: Phase conversion converts elect. in a new way 
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        Now the part of A/C that does not do any work is conducting the work. 
 That is the kinetic energy aspect   and the part now conducting work is only 
doing a fraction of work. That is the Amps.  That is just the opposite  of 
how science thinks  it is functioning.  

 So now you drastically reduce at 75% levels  draw factors from the grid for 
any given situation. Forget totally known physics that currently explains 
electricity because those equations have all been replaced with new ones. You 
will not be able to grasp the concept until you do if you a math type 
engineering thinker.    

This request for info mail is  from Tom C.   a multi millionaire in LA that 
we will see along with a REP for a group of billionaires in SAN DIEGO.  Plus  
 AAPS power in San Diego.  Plus Bruce H.  a rep. for billionaire  in LA . 
Plus in Salt Lake we will see another world  level player Stephen G.    who 
deals with heads of country's when we take  two  units  out that can be 
demonstrated.  Plus a world level player in SAN FRAN that I met in NYC at a 
venture capital situation at the Sheraton Towers last Api. And saw again on 
the West coast in June   ARE you in that high end Business league in England 
George? 

  Because that is the level we deal at.  These people are all world level 
players. I'm attempting to create as possible major Corp.  Plus Dennis lee in 
NJ who flew us out in 2001 after being here for 3 days. HE needs a system to 
operate his Sundance Generator. He is going to have to put up large dollars  
to pay for future delivery of product   

 Ron Frazier  that was a nice conversation last night will you Please  send 
this out for me. Business types like RON  only care if it function as 
advertised. They do not care how. SCI. types care how. They can figure that 
out for themselves if they want to know. WE are NOT going to tell them squat. 
 Or deal with them because there is NO reason to.  

 But will provide a visual demo. Which is all we are required to do.  That  
proves  the first new electrical  Theory in a century.  Main stream Science 
is S.O.L  this time. They need to go the way of the dinosaur anyway. IT is 
time for a complete change in thinking. Because they are not solving any 
problems with there current thinking. We are with totally new thinking. .   

>   FROM TOM C        Hi Jack,    I sent this to some skeptics    After 
> receiving my reply and a long conversation with me and the prime Tech. He 
> totally understands the concept. You SCI. people cannot even understand the 
> concept. Because you need more than SCI. knowledge to do so. You need 
> something called common sense. That is something SCI only types are not 
> know for.  

  SCI> types only think in one realm. They just do not understand business. I 
have never found one that does.  SCI. 
> types do not create companies so they do not understand the process. They 
> work for people that do or are in the EDU. system. Unless they have 
> actually created or invented situations they cannot relate as they cannot 
> to inventive types either. Plus they will not attempt to either. Because 
> their giant counter productive Ego's will not let them 
> 
> I cannot understand exactly what you are saying, so let's start over. I 
> move slowly but once I get it, I really get it.
> I believe you are saying that you have a device which more efficiently uses 
> electricity than devices which are in use right now. 
> 
   YES  DRAMATICALLY 

So it does not 
> actually put out electricity, it uses electricity more efficiently and 
> therefore it does more work with the same amount of provided electricity.Is 
> this correct?    

    YES 
> 
> 
With the scientific community, there is a group of laws they know and obey. 
However, they do not know all the laws, and this is where invention can still 
take place, when someone can use an unknown law or a misunderstood
law. This is the opportunity. 

    THAT  LAW THEY USE IS TOTALLY OBSOLETE THERE IS ALL NEW LAW  ""PERIOD"" 

I understand you have lots of anger and 
> frustration with the scientific community, 
> 
   NO I HAVE MY FUN BY PLAYING WITH THEIR THEORY ONLY THINKING small closed 
narrow MINDS  
l    
    Let's put that aside for now- as 
> hard as that is to do!  They will figure out how to explain it if we can
> prove it works.  I may be the one you are looking for who can provide 
> thatlink between your invention and the real world.
> 

    REPLY  EVEN NOBLE LEVEL MINDS ARE CLUELESS   bECAUSE NO KNOWN MATH EXISTS 
. THERE IS NEW 
> MATH BUT WE WILL NOT PUB. IT.    THERE IS NO NEED TO IF YOU CAN DEMO AND 
> TOTALLY PROVE THE FIRST NEW THEORY IN A CENTURY   THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE 
> WORLD FROM NOW ON TOM  AND LEAVES SCIENCE IN A TOTAL CATCH 22 

> My situation is NOT that I will fund such promotions in any large way.  I 
> can provide a means by which you can achieve success with this (if it does 
> what you say it does).  In the process, I succeed, too- that's win-win.  My
> intention is to make the world a better place, plain and simple.  I believe 
> that the greatest good comes from honest relationships and hard work.

>       WE HAVE THE SAME GOALS

> I need to understand, in basic terms, what your device does.  You don't have 
> to give me any technical secrets in your reply, we are not at that stage. 
> Walk me through this.
> 
> 1.  Your device is what? a different type of motor or what?

>       THE FIRST THAT WE DEMO AND CAN DO SO AT A CUSTOMERS LOCATION 
> INDEPENDENT FROM US.   IS A MINOR SITUATION TO US. and a obsolete 220 v  to 
> 3 phase Rotating Transformer  BUT IF USED ON A PLANET WIDE BASES WOULD FOR 
> GO ELECTRICAL DEMAND OVER CURRENT DEMAND UNTILL 2080. AS IT IS DEMAND WILL 
> DOUBLE BY 2020  THAT IS A TWO TRILLION SITUATION. That conclusion was 
> reached by MIT's super computer that was pimped for free processing time.  

  THAT MATH IS EASY TO FIGURE  iT CONVERTS CURRENT WITH A NEW PROCESS THAT 
ENABLES YOU TO 
> USE BASICALLY ALL OF IT WITHOUT WASTE . NO PATENTS BECAUSE WE DO NOT NEED 
> THEM BUT WILL HAVE TRADEMARKS  TECH. DOES GET PUB. AND IS THE BASES FOR A 
> CO.  AS COKES PROCESS IS FOR THEIR CO AND HAS NEVER BEEN PUB IN 120 YEARS. 
> plus WORLD CLASS SELF DESTROYING ANTI REVERSE ENG. TECH. IS BUilt  IN   WE 
> wish them luck figuring it out. Their problem is they are not wired to. 

2. Your device is supplied with electricity?  How much, volts and current.

>    The FIRST ONE YES BUT THE NEXT STEP  A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TECH. WILL BE 
> SELF CONTAINED AND YOU JUST HOOK IT TO A GENERATOR  current ONE IS  A 3 HP 
> UNIT WILL POWER UP  10 HP. to 15 Hp.  OF EQ.. BY CONVERTING SINGLE PHASE 
> INTO 3 PHASE  All that matters is what it is drawing and what that draw is 
> producing. 

> If there is a different inrush at start up, that's important, too.

>   YOUR GOING TO HAVE SOME SURGE 

> 3. Your device then performs work which is measured how?  This work is
> greater than conventional products in what way?

>    EASY YOU SEE A  110 V, OR 220 V. IMPUT THEN YOU SEE A 3 PHASE OUTPUT THEN 
> YOU SEE OPERATIONAL EQ. YOU MEASURE THE DRAW AND IT FAR LOWER THAT REQUIRED 
> DRAW OF WHATEVER IT OPERATES.  SIMPLE. The SYSTEM CAN OPERATE A 3 PHASE  
> GEN THAT CONVERTS IT BACK TO SINGLE PHASE.   THEN YOU OPERATE YOUR HOUSE 
> WITH A FRACTION OF THE DRAW YOU WOULD NORMALLY NEED. THEN YOU HAVE A  NEW 
> WORLD. THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO YOURS IN ANYWAY.  

       Please give me a 1-2-3, thanks. If your device does what you say it 
does, 
> then there is always a means to move forward and I can certainly help.
>     CALL ME  WILL SEE    810 618 9234 
> thanks for your email.
> 
> best regards,    -------  SEE HOW EASY IT IS ?   WHEN YOU ASK the right 
> QUESTIONS . 
 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now the part of A/C that does not do any work is conductin=
g the work.&nbsp; That is the kinetic energy aspect&nbsp;&nbsp; and the part=
 now conducting work is only doing a fraction of work. That is the Amps.&nbs=
p; That is just the opposite&nbsp; of how science thinks&nbsp; it is functio=
ning.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 So now you drastically reduce at 75% levels&nbsp; draw factors from the gri=
d for any given situation. Forget totally known physics that currently expla=
ins electricity because those equations have all been replaced with new ones=
. You will not be able to grasp the concept until you do if you a math type=20=
engineering thinker.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
This request for info mail is&nbsp; from Tom C.&nbsp;&nbsp; a multi milliona=
ire in LA that we will see along with a REP for a group of billionaires in S=
AN DIEGO.&nbsp; Plus&nbsp;&nbsp; AAPS power in San Diego.&nbsp; Plus Bruce H=
.&nbsp; a rep. for billionaire&nbsp; in LA . Plus in Salt Lake we will see a=
nother world&nbsp; level player Stephen G.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; who deals with=20=
heads of country's when we take&nbsp; two&nbsp; units&nbsp; out that can be=20=
demonstrated.&nbsp; Plus a world level player in SAN FRAN that I met in NYC=20=
at a venture capital situation at the Sheraton Towers last Api. And saw agai=
n on the West coast in June&nbsp;&nbsp; ARE you in that high end Business le=
ague in England George? <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Because that is the level we deal at.&nbsp; These people are all worl=
d level players. I'm attempting to create as possible major Corp.&nbsp; Plus=
 Dennis lee in NJ who flew us out in 2001 after being here for 3 days. HE ne=
eds a system to operate his Sundance Generator. He is going to have to put u=
p large dollars&nbsp; to pay for future delivery of product&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Ron Frazier&nbsp; that was a nice conversation last night will you Please&n=
bsp; send this out for me. Business types like RON&nbsp; only care if it fun=
ction as advertised. They do not care how. SCI. types care how. They can fig=
ure that out for themselves if they want to know. WE are NOT going to tell t=
hem squat.&nbsp; Or deal with them because there is NO reason to.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 But will provide a visual demo. Which is all we are required to do.&nbsp; T=
hat&nbsp; proves&nbsp; the first new electrical&nbsp; Theory in a century.&n=
bsp; Main stream Science is S.O.L&nbsp; this time. They need to go the way o=
f the dinosaur anyway. IT is time for a complete change in thinking. Because=
 they are not solving any problems with there current thinking. We are with=20=
totally new thinking. .&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; FROM TOM C&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I sent this to some=20=
skeptics&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; After receiving my reply and a long conversation=20=
with me and the prime Tech. He totally understands the concept. You SCI. peo=
ple cannot even understand the concept. Because you need more than SCI. know=
ledge to do so. You need something called common sense. That is something SC=
I only types are not know for.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; SCI&gt; types only think in one realm. They just do not understand bu=
siness. I have never found one that does.&nbsp; SCI. <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">types do not create companies s=
o they do not understand the process. They work for people that do or are in=
 the EDU. system. Unless they have actually created or invented situations t=
hey cannot relate as they cannot to inventive types either. Plus they will n=
ot attempt to either. Because their giant counter productive Ego's will not=20=
let them <BR>
<BR>
I cannot understand exactly what you are saying, so let's start over. I move=
 slowly but once I get it, I really get it.<BR>
I believe you are saying that you have a device which more efficiently uses=20=
electricity than devices which are in use right now. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; YES&nbsp; DRAMATICALLY <BR>
<BR>
So it does not <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">actually put out electricity, i=
t uses electricity more efficiently and therefore it does more work with the=
 same amount of provided electricity.Is this correct?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YES <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
With the scientific community, there is a group of laws they know and obey.=20=
However, they do not know all the laws, and this is where invention can stil=
l take place, when someone can use an unknown law or a misunderstood<BR>
law. This is the opportunity. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT&nbsp; LAW THEY USE IS TOTALLY OBSOLETE THERE IS ALL=20=
NEW LAW&nbsp; ""PERIOD"" <BR>
<BR>
I understand you have lots of anger and <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">frustration with the scientific=
 community, <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; NO I HAVE MY FUN BY PLAYING WITH THEIR THEORY ONLY THINKING sma=
ll closed narrow MINDS&nbsp; <BR>
l&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Let's put that aside for now- as <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">hard as that is to do!&nbsp; Th=
ey will figure out how to explain it if we can<BR>
prove it works.&nbsp; I may be the one you are looking for who can provide t=
hatlink between your invention and the real world.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; EVEN NOBLE LEVEL MINDS ARE CLUELESS&nbsp;&nbs=
p; bECAUSE NO KNOWN MATH EXISTS . THERE IS NEW <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">MATH BUT WE WILL NOT PUB. IT.&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THERE IS NO NEED TO IF YOU CAN DEMO AND TOTALLY PROVE THE F=
IRST NEW THEORY IN A CENTURY&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD FROM=
 NOW ON TOM&nbsp; AND LEAVES SCIENCE IN A TOTAL CATCH 22 </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My situation is NOT that I will=
 fund such promotions in any large way.&nbsp; I can provide a means by which=
 you can achieve success with this (if it does what you say it does).&nbsp;=20=
In the process, I succeed, too- that's win-win.&nbsp; My<BR>
intention is to make the world a better place, plain and simple.&nbsp; I bel=
ieve that the greatest good comes from honest relationships and hard work.</=
BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
WE HAVE THE SAME GOALS</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I need to understand, in basic=20=
terms, what your device does.&nbsp; You don't have to give me any technical=20=
secrets in your reply, we are not at that stage. Walk me through this.<BR>
<BR>
1.&nbsp; Your device is what? a different type of motor or what?</BLOCKQUOTE=
><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
THE FIRST THAT WE DEMO AND CAN DO SO AT A CUSTOMERS LOCATION INDEPENDENT FRO=
M US.&nbsp;&nbsp; IS A MINOR SITUATION TO US. and a obsolete 220 v&nbsp; to=20=
3 phase Rotating Transformer&nbsp; BUT IF USED ON A PLANET WIDE BASES WOULD=20=
FOR GO ELECTRICAL DEMAND OVER CURRENT DEMAND UNTILL 2080. AS IT IS DEMAND WI=
LL DOUBLE BY 2020&nbsp; THAT IS A TWO TRILLION SITUATION. That conclusion wa=
s reached by MIT's super computer that was pimped for free processing time.&=
nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; THAT MATH IS EASY TO FIGURE&nbsp; iT CONVERTS CURRENT WITH A NEW PROC=
ESS THAT ENABLES YOU TO <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">USE BASICALLY ALL OF IT WITHOUT=
 WASTE . NO PATENTS BECAUSE WE DO NOT NEED THEM BUT WILL HAVE TRADEMARKS&nbs=
p; TECH. DOES GET PUB. AND IS THE BASES FOR A CO.&nbsp; AS COKES PROCESS IS=20=
FOR THEIR CO AND HAS NEVER BEEN PUB IN 120 YEARS. plus WORLD CLASS SELF DEST=
ROYING ANTI REVERSE ENG. TECH. IS BUilt&nbsp; IN&nbsp;&nbsp; WE wish them lu=
ck figuring it out. Their problem is they are not wired to. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR=
>
<BR>
2. Your device is supplied with electricity?&nbsp; How much, volts and curre=
nt.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; The FIRST ONE YES=20=
BUT THE NEXT STEP&nbsp; A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TECH. WILL BE SELF CONTAINED AND=
 YOU JUST HOOK IT TO A GENERATOR&nbsp; current ONE IS&nbsp; A 3 HP UNIT WILL=
 POWER UP&nbsp; 10 HP. to 15 Hp.&nbsp; OF EQ.. BY CONVERTING SINGLE PHASE IN=
TO 3 PHASE&nbsp; All that matters is what it is drawing and what that draw i=
s producing. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If there is a different inrush=20=
at start up, that's important, too.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; YOUR GOING TO HAVE SOME=20=
SURGE </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">3. Your device then performs wo=
rk which is measured how?&nbsp; This work is<BR>
greater than conventional products in what way?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; EASY YOU SEE A&nbs=
p; 110 V, OR 220 V. IMPUT THEN YOU SEE A 3 PHASE OUTPUT THEN YOU SEE OPERATI=
ONAL EQ. YOU MEASURE THE DRAW AND IT FAR LOWER THAT REQUIRED DRAW OF WHATEVE=
R IT OPERATES.&nbsp; SIMPLE. The SYSTEM CAN OPERATE A 3 PHASE&nbsp; GEN THAT=
 CONVERTS IT BACK TO SINGLE PHASE.&nbsp;&nbsp; THEN YOU OPERATE YOUR HOUSE W=
ITH A FRACTION OF THE DRAW YOU WOULD NORMALLY NEED. THEN YOU HAVE A&nbsp; NE=
W WORLD. THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO YOURS IN ANYWAY.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please give me a 1-2-3, thanks. If your=
 device does what you say it does, <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">then there is always a means to=
 move forward and I can certainly help.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CALL ME&nbsp; WILL SEE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 810 618 9234 <BR=
>
thanks for your email.<BR>
<BR>
best regards,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -------&nbsp; SEE HOW EASY IT IS ?&nbsp;&nbs=
p; WHEN YOU ASK the right QUESTIONS . </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
 </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 06:13:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <116.1efcd114.2b824732 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:09:54 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Engineers are dense So details please
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 2/17/03 5:29:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20
georgemurray1 aol.com writes:
  RON send this out will you

> No, no, dont need to phone, I was only asking for general details of this=20
> machine. I dont want specific details or you would have to include my name=
=20
> on=20
> any patent applications. Couldnt understand some of your answers.
>=20
> In a message dated 15/02/03 17:42:11 GMT Standard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com=
=20
> writes:
>=20
> <<    THIS REQUIRES A PHONE CONVERSATION  MY NO. IS 810 618 9234 USA >> se=
e=20
>=20
> my reply above
>=20
> <<  WE  will manuf. and  You can manuf. minor aspects to start wherever=20
> with=20
> licensing agreements and we would send the heart that has self destroying=20=
=20
> anti reverse engineering aspects built in>>
>=20
> Can you explain what the self destroying anti reverse engineering aspects=20
> are?=20
   REPLY simple if you attempt to revese engineer it will not function if yo=
u=20
take it apart and put it back together PLUS it will fall apart and the parts=
=20
are not what anyone  has ever saw but is modified off the shelf  hardware=20
PLus we will have a situation that cause  Tesla inspired  windings to be=20
damaged if units are disassembled.=20
=20
     If you intend to manufacture you must have full manufacturing drawings,=
 >=20
>=20
> so these aspects must be explainable.

>    REPLY    TO WHO ? that only stays with our company in regard to the hea=
rt=20
> of the unit   PLUS  NO one on the planet   I know of understands the=20
> conversion process that is taking place when it is operational . NOBODY =20
> finds out  HOW . unless they figure it out for themselves. NO patents will=
=20
> be filed  WE do not need them  THey are worthless anyway   But will have=20
> trademarks =20

  WE are stealing the one Per Se that Marconi used to set up RCA   and=20
improving it. YOU KNOW Marconi  he stold=20
> Tesla's inventions that created our communications on this planet .     IF=
=20
> they and try to manuf. WE will come out with a more advanced version and=20
> they are screwed   OR if have to a different Tech.   THey are 99.9999999%=20=
=20
> Screwed this time. as far as getting around us.=20

> <<  That is the only thing Business cares about. WE do not have time to=20
> teach=20
> science how to reverse their thinking processes  You not going to get what=
=20
> you want. Unless you figure out that for yourself. This may be the=20
> opportunity of a lifetime.>>
> Dont agree - All organ grinders should know what the monkey is doing.
>           =20
> << 1. What is the power output of this machine? Can it be enlarged to base=
=20
> > power=20
> > load sizes, ie Megawatts? Gigawatts?>>
>=20
> Any idea???    Maybe you will understand  the previos mail.=20
>  =20
> << 2. What is the power to weight ratio?
>        N/A>>
>=20
> I disagree, all power machines have measurable power and weight. I never=20
> include machines in surveys that dont have stated figures. I just state=20
> that=20
> the manfacturer could not provide data, so that the purchaser of the surve=
y=20
>=20
> can decide whether its worth pursuing further.

>  REPLY   OK that sounds fine=20

> <<> 3. What is the overall energy conversion ratio, ie energy in, power ou=
t?=20
>=20
>      REPLY  over the phone Or call the Tech at 810 701 9432 >>
>=20
> I refer you to my statement above.
>=20
> << > 4. Durability? How many hours do you expect between overhauls?
>         Reply  over the phone.>>
>  =20
> Same reply=20
>=20
> << 5. Has or will it pass all the environmental controls, ie EMC emissions=
,=20
>=20
>   noise, vibration, gaseous emissions?
>=20
>       reply yes  Phase conversion is off the shelf technology that has bee=
n=20
>=20
> modified  Self contained DC to AC is to  but the prototype is not complete=
d=20
> =20
> but the 50 million dollar tech. center saw it under construction  and is a=
=20
> totally different tech. but produces A/C  >>
>=20
> yes, subject to testing?   Naturally=20
>=20
> << > 7. What is your projected cost $(=A3) per kilowatt (Megawatt)?
>           Reply   You need understanding first You will possibly achive=20
> that=20
> over the phone >>
>=20
> Eitherway, it wont change the figures  REPLY   It is called  understanding=
=20
> because it can possibly be achived over the phoner  mail is difficult=20
>=20
>=20
> << > 8. When do you expect to produce the first production units?
>         REPLY they all ready exist as  pre production units. In 1975 the=20
> DEV.=20
> had a 9 bay body shop and was paying 1500.US a month for electricity and=20
> was=20
> able to reduce it to 120. US   THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD. AS YOU KNOW=
=20
> IT >>
>     =20
> In 5 above you said the protype was not completed!!!     Reply    WE HAVE=20
> SOLD grid driven  UNITS   DC to AC is a different technology all together=20
>=20
> <<> Where can I get one of your T-shirts, can you tell me how much and the=
=20
> > postage cost to England, I would really love one?
>     REPLY THAT IS A JOKE.   A limey with a sense of humor you do not find=20
> that=20
> to often Another joke .  Actually it is Americans in main stream science=20
> that=20
> do not have  sense of humor >>
>=20
> No, that was a serious request. Dont think I wll bother now thanks.  REPLY=
 =20
> In america sir we say been there done that and have the T shirt to prove i=
t=20
>  It is a saying=20
>  =20
> <<> 9. Finally, and most importantly, even though we really dont care how=20
> it=20
> > works, could you please briefly tell us all how it works, a) so that=20
> > business=20
> > men can understand it and be persuaded to buy it and b) so that engineer=
s=20
>=20
> > can=20
> > understand it and want to build it. Please dont leave us in this dense=20
> > undergrowth. I think we're all struggling with this new backwards=20
> thinking=20
> > technology.
> >      REPLY   OVER THE PHONE IF YOU CANNOT GRASP WHAT i HAVE SAID.>>
>=20
> Sorry, overall, still in the dark.=20
> I think you are about ten years too early trying to sell this technology=20
> without any proven figures and reports to back up all the ideas.=20
>=20
  RTEPLY there is several billionaires that think we are not  HOW do you kno=
w=20
untill you actually investigate.?  That is a crystal ball call. your making.=
=20
About you know nothing about > That i can see=20


> I think you will be well advised to produce a paper for ,say, an SAE or AS=
ME=20
>=20
> conference in a few years before laying down millions of dollars on an=20
> upproven concept. Get the prototype running and someone may fund you the=20
> next=20
> phase.      =20

   REPLY screw the SAE  they are a joke  WE do not do papers WE demo=20
operating  technologies conducting heavy duty industrial work. Using squat =20
from the grid    i made fools out the SAE  at COBO HALL in  Detroit MI   las=
t=20
Mar. at there world conference I had press passes That Electrifying Times =20
got for me   I was there all 4 days  I live 50 miles away in Flint MI.  THE=20
concept is proven over 30 years of operational situations    I deal with=20
world level business players are you one or not. ?? If your not have a nice=20
day..   If your are i will talk to you.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/17/0=
3 5:29:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, georgemurray1 aol.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp; RON send this out will you<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">No, no, dont need to phone, I w=
as only asking for general details of this <BR>
machine. I dont want specific details or you would have to include my name o=
n <BR>
any patent applications. Couldnt understand some of your answers.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 15/02/03 17:42:11 GMT Standard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com <=
BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THIS REQUIRES A PHONE CONVERSATION&nbsp; MY NO. I=
S 810 618 9234 USA &gt;&gt; see <BR>
my reply above<BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;&nbsp; WE&nbsp; will manuf. and&nbsp; You can manuf. minor aspects t=
o start wherever with <BR>
licensing agreements and we would send the heart that has self destroying&nb=
sp; <BR>
anti reverse engineering aspects built in&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Can you explain what the self destroying anti reverse engineering aspects <B=
R>
are? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZ=
E=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY simple if you attempt to revese engineer it will not func=
tion if you take it apart and put it back together PLUS it will fall apart a=
nd the parts are not what anyone&nbsp; has ever saw but is modified off the=20=
shelf&nbsp; hardware PLus we will have a situation that cause&nbsp; Tesla in=
spired&nbsp; windings to be damaged if units are disassembled. <BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If=20=
you intend to manufacture you must have full manufacturing drawings, <BLOCKQ=
UOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
so these aspects must be explainable.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <B>TO WHO </B>? that only stays with our company in regard to the <B>h=
eart </B>of the unit&nbsp;&nbsp; PLUS&nbsp; <B>NO </B>one on the planet&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I know of understands the conversion process that is taking place wh=
en it is operational . <B>NOBODY</B>&nbsp; finds out&nbsp; <B>HOW</B> . unle=
ss they figure it out for themselves.<B> NO </B>patents will be filed&nbsp;=20=
WE do not need them&nbsp; THey are worthless anyway&nbsp;&nbsp; But will hav=
e trademarks&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR=
: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQU=
OTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; WE are stealing the o=
ne Per Se that Marconi used to set up <B>RCA&nbsp;</B>&nbsp; and improving i=
t. YOU KNOW <B>Marconi</B>&nbsp; he stold </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Tesla's </B>inventions that created our communications o=
n this planet .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IF they and try to manuf. WE will co=
me out with a more advanced version and they are screwed&nbsp;&nbsp; OR if h=
ave to a different Tech.&nbsp;&nbsp; THey are 99.9999999%&nbsp; Screwed this=
 time. as far as getting around us. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&lt;&lt;&nbsp; That is the only=
 thing Business cares about. WE do not have time to teach <BR>
science how to reverse their thinking processes&nbsp; You not going to get w=
hat <BR>
you want. Unless you figure out that for yourself. This may be the <BR>
opportunity of a lifetime.&gt;&gt;<BR>
Dont agree - All organ grinders should know what the monkey is doing.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&lt;&lt; 1. What is the power output of this machine? Can it be enlarged to=20=
base <BR>
&gt; power <BR>
&gt; load sizes, ie Megawatts? Gigawatts?&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Any idea???&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe you will understand&nbsp; the previos ma=
il. <BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
&lt;&lt; 2. What is the power to weight ratio?<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; N/A&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
I disagree, all power machines have measurable power and weight. I never <BR=
>
include machines in surveys that dont have stated figures. I just state that=
 <BR>
the manfacturer could not provide data, so that the purchaser of the survey=20=
<BR>
can decide whether its worth pursuing further.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; OK that soun=
ds fine </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&lt;&lt;&gt; 3. What is the overall energy conversion ratio=
, ie energy in, power out? <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; over the phone Or call the Tech at 810=20=
701 9432 &gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
I refer you to my statement above.<BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt; &gt; 4. Durability? How many hours do you expect between overhauls?=
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp; over the phone.&gt;&g=
t;<BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
Same reply <BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt; 5. Has or will it pass all the environmental controls, ie EMC emiss=
ions, <BR>
&nbsp; noise, vibration, gaseous emissions?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reply yes&nbsp; Phase conversion is off the s=
helf technology that has been <BR>
modified&nbsp; Self contained DC to AC is to&nbsp; but the prototype is not=20=
completed&nbsp; <BR>
but the 50 million dollar tech. center saw it under construction&nbsp; and i=
s a <BR>
totally different tech. but produces A/C&nbsp; &gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
yes, subject to testing?&nbsp;&nbsp; Naturally <BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt; &gt; 7. What is your projected cost $(=A3) per kilowatt (Megawatt)?=
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; You=
 need understanding first You will possibly achive that <BR>
over the phone &gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Eitherway, it wont change the figures&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; It is called&n=
bsp; understanding because it can possibly be achived over the phoner&nbsp;=20=
mail is difficult <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt; &gt; 8. When do you expect to produce the first production units?<B=
R>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY they all ready exist as&nbs=
p; pre production units. In 1975 the DEV. <BR>
had a 9 bay body shop and was paying 1500.US a month for electricity and was=
 <BR>
able to reduce it to 120. US&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT TOTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD. AS=20=
YOU KNOW <BR>
IT &gt;&gt;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
In 5 above you said the protype was not completed!!!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Reply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE HAVE SOLD grid driven&nbsp; UNITS&nbsp;&nbsp; DC=
 to AC is a different technology all together <BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;&gt; Where can I get one of your T-shirts, can you tell me how much=20=
and the <BR>
&gt; postage cost to England, I would really love one?<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY THAT IS A JOKE.&nbsp;&nbsp; A limey with a sense of=
 humor you do not find <BR>
that <BR>
to often Another joke .&nbsp; Actually it is Americans in main stream scienc=
e <BR>
that <BR>
do not have&nbsp; sense of humor &gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
No, that was a serious request. Dont think I wll bother now thanks.&nbsp; RE=
PLY&nbsp; In america sir we say been there done that and have the T shirt to=
 prove it&nbsp; It is a saying <BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
&lt;&lt;&gt; 9. Finally, and most importantly, even though we really dont ca=
re how it <BR>
&gt; works, could you please briefly tell us all how it works, a) so that <B=
R>
&gt; business <BR>
&gt; men can understand it and be persuaded to buy it and b) so that enginee=
rs <BR>
&gt; can <BR>
&gt; understand it and want to build it. Please dont leave us in this dense=20=
<BR>
&gt; undergrowth. I think we're all struggling with this new backwards think=
ing <BR>
&gt; technology.<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; OVER THE PHONE IF YOU C=
ANNOT GRASP WHAT i HAVE SAID.&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, overall, still in the dark. <BR>
I think you are about ten years too early trying to sell this technology <BR=
>
without any proven figures and reports to back up all the ideas. <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; RTEPLY there is several billionaires that think we are not&nbsp; HOW=20=
do you know untill you actually investigate.?&nbsp; That is a crystal ball c=
all. your making. About you know nothing about &gt; That i can see <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I think you will be well advise=
d to produce a paper for ,say, an SAE or ASME <BR>
conference in a few years before laying down millions of dollars on an <BR>
upproven concept. Get the prototype running and someone may fund you the nex=
t <BR>
phase.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" s=
tyle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ari=
al" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY screw the=
 SAE&nbsp; they are a joke&nbsp; WE do not do papers WE demo operating&nbsp;=
 technologies conducting heavy duty industrial work. Using squat&nbsp; from=20=
the grid&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i made fools out the SAE&nbsp; at COBO HALL in&nb=
sp; Detroit MI&nbsp;&nbsp; last Mar. at there world conference I had press p=
asses That Electrifying Times&nbsp; got for me&nbsp;&nbsp; I was there all 4=
 days&nbsp; I live 50 miles away in Flint MI.&nbsp; THE concept is proven ov=
er 30 years of operational situations&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I deal with world le=
vel business players are you one or not. ?? If your not have a nice day..&nb=
sp;&nbsp; If your are i will talk to you. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_116.1efcd114.2b824732_boundary--

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <ae.3931e49d.2b8258ff aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:25:51 EST
Subject: Re: Jack's World       is totally different than yours. 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: GeorgeMurray1 aol.com, rfraizer@c3energy.com
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In a message dated 2/17/03 1:52:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
           RON send this out please 

> It isn't the technology that we are objecting to Jack, it's your language 
> and your willingness to believe any crack pot theory that you read on the 
> Internet, or hear at a U F O conference.  Then the is the argument that you 
> and I are having over your refusal to give an intelligent explanation of 
> what the technology is, and your refusal to test it properly.

>         REPLY PAL i do not believe anything unless i see it operational I 
> talked to you TOM 18 months ago   You have spoken with one of the brightest 
> minds on this planet did he explain it to you  PROPER   testing Tom is as 
> it is being used in a real world situation as Infinite Energy Mag. all 
> ready did. I think they are little farther up the food chain than you are. 
> I think they were able to detmine PROPER Testing. I'm only explaining the 
> concept over the phone. Because no one can  understand anythiig in mail. 
> That i can see.  
> 
> I just finished reading the rest of your posts. You are right, the world's 
> condition continues to deteriorate, at an increasing rate. This will be 
> solved in a few years by the return of the King, Yeshua, who will 
> straighten things out, so don't worry about it. 

    REPLY thanks for that but people will solve the problems  Did you read 
that Crack Pot theory on the net and believe it    Or here it at a UFO 
confernce. Or at a Riviable       THat is a pipe dream Tom. YOU JUST MADE A 
TOTAL fool out of yourself with that statement.  > 
> 
> As far as that your being published by Frolov's magazine, that me be cause 
> for joy in Jack's World, by he has no credibility on this list. He 
> published an article by some people who claimed to have replicated the 
> Searle machine. If they could build a machine which would levitate your 
> vehicle, power your home, and cure you of every disease known to medical 
> science, there would be people lined up down the street waiting to buy it! 
> Instead of arranging for us to see a prototype, Alexander chose to ignore 
> me. 
>     
> 
> Meters have been fooled in the past. The water heating test had the 
> blessing of the late Otto Schmitt, professor emeritus of Physics, 
> electrical engineering and zoology at the University of Minnesota, a 
> pioneer in BioPhysics, former head of the Air Borne Instruments Laboratory, 
> and a member of the National Academy of Science. With credentials such as 
> this, he is respected by scientists in the real world. In Jack's World, I 
> suppose that he would be relegated to the status of a crack pot inventor, 
> because he was after all an E E, in Jack's World, they, "just don't get 
> it."

>   REPLY AS usual   main stream science cannot relate to the real world.  AND 
> you can see it visually also that what it is doing is not possible with out 
> meters it is that plain to see  IT either functions or not there are no in 
> betweens.  If it is use 110 V or 220 V and operating 3 phase EQ with squat  
> for power draw.  That is real simple to test. it takes 10 minutes tops. You 
> are talking about complicated BS   SIMPLE   SIMPLE      Why can't engineers 
> think  SIMPLE  SIMPLE    NO THAT WOULD BE TO EASY>  Then anyone could think 
> that way. ANd Eng. couldn't think they were better than everyone  else. AS 
> they do now. 
> 
> The machines designed by the E E's work very well in the real world, we 
> install them all the time. Your decision that they don't work in Jack's 
> World is your problem. They obey certain rules, and all of the energy that 
> they consume is accounted for. But the rules don't seem to apply in Jack's 
> World. But that's your problem.

>    REPLY  OUR machines make those machines use far less power that is 
> something you cannot do PERIOD screw the rules   CURRENT  CONTAINS  KINETIC 
> ENERGY ASPECTS  THAT ARE NOT USED PRESENTLY     WELL WE USE THEM    AND DO 
> NOT NEED THE ASPECTS TO ANY EXTENT THAT ARE CURRENLY REQUIRED.    wHICH IS 
> AMPS   YOU PEOPLE ARE STILL LOST   YOU GOING TO BE BECAUSE YOUR HAVE NO 
> MATH TO EXPLAIN.   GET USE TO IT. BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY IT IS GOING TO 
> BE. 
> 
> If you can do what you say you can, then my associates are interested in 
> it. But they are looking to make up for the money that they lost investing 
> in the last free energy machine. After you get burnt a few times, you start 
> to get careful. When something appears to contradict the rules, which are 
> rules because they work, then you want to see a definitive test, before you 
> invest. A machine which causes the electricity going in one end, to do 4 
> times the work that they normally would,  falls in the category of a 
> machine which breaks the rules.
> 
>   REPLY   you still do not understand  it does not do that    NOW LISTEN 
> FOR ONCE IT CAUSES A SITUATION WHERE FAR LESS IS NEEDED  your half to 
> totally reverse your thinking 

> Then there is teleportation, which may exit in Jack's World, but there is no 
> evidence that it exists in the real world. What kind of a kick ass weapons 
> delivery system do you think such a machine would make? Ditto for 
> transporting material to the front. If the military types knew how to do 
> it, do you think they would hesitate to use it?
> 
>    REPLY    IT HAS BEEN SHOWN ON MANY DOC'S  THEY USED FILM THAT WAS TAKEN 
> AT THE TIME IN THE 30'S  TESLA AND Einstein working together only went so 
> far with it to prove it could be done 

> Have you heard about the glut of automobile manufacturing capability? What 
> kind of a world beating vehicle, do you think a full sized SUV with a 
> vaporizing carburetor, that got say 50 MPG, would be? I've been hearing 
> these stories for years. Do you know were I can buy one? My friend Phil who 
> is a mechanical engineer, purchased a plan, or was it a kit from a website 
> like www.137milepergalloncarburator.com . He has yet to get anything 
> working
>   REply    read the following   it is the solution 

GM 20 years ago was shown a new combustion concept and spent millions on it 
but could not perfect it. Because they did not want to pay the inventor for 
the next step info. But instead because of their not invented here syndrome 
backward thinking wasted a great deal of money attempting to Dev. the 
platform. What do you except from GM ?  I understand Toyota came the closest 
to perfecting the concept but did not. 

Back then you could have breathed the exhaust without harm to you. Because 
the fuel would have been  burned to a level that no converter would have been 
required. The platform a 2 cycle 4 cycle concept was a 6 CY.  that would have 
provided  8 CY. Power and would have had 4 CY. mileage. That concept now can 
be a closed loop system with no exhaust and the only residue would be clean 
carbon that your lawn would love.

  When we showed the Chief Scientist of the Delphi Corp. the diagram during 
an  advanced Tech. demonstration beyond anything they were knowledgeable 
about. He recognized it. A ranking City official at the time attended the 
meeting with us at their world HQ. Tech. center. That concept alone would 
solve our current requirements of needing foreign oil. THE concept is for 
sale. No prototype presently exists. Contact me if your interested at 810 618 
9234



--part1_ae.3931e49d.2b8258ff_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/17/0=
3 1:52:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RON send this o=
ut please <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It isn't the technology that we=
 are objecting to Jack, it's your language and your willingness to believe a=
ny crack pot theory that you read on the Internet, or hear at a U F O confer=
ence.&nbsp; Then the is the argument that you and I are having over your ref=
usal to give an intelligent explanation of what the technology is, and your=20=
refusal to test it properly.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY PAL i do not believe anything unless i see it operational=20=
I talked to you TOM 18 months ago&nbsp;&nbsp; You have spoken with one of th=
e brightest minds on this planet did he explain it to you&nbsp; PROPER&nbsp;=
&nbsp; testing Tom is as it is being used in a real world situation as Infin=
ite Energy Mag. all ready did. I think they are little farther up the food c=
hain than you are. I think they were able to detmine PROPER Testing. I'm onl=
y explaining the concept over the phone. Because no one can&nbsp; understand=
 anythiig in mail. That i can see.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I just finished reading the rest of your posts. You are right, the world's c=
ondition continues to deteriorate, at an increasing rate. This will be solve=
d in a few years by the return of the King, Yeshua, who will straighten thin=
gs out, so don't worry about it. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY tha=
nks for that but people will solve the problems&nbsp; Did you read that Crac=
k Pot theory on the net and believe it&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Or here it at a UFO=
 confernce. Or at a Riviable&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THat is a p=
ipe dream Tom. YOU JUST MADE A TOTAL fool out of yourself with that statemen=
t.&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MA=
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
As far as that your being published by Frolov's magazine, that me be cause f=
or joy in Jack's World, by he has no credibility on this list. He published=20=
an article by some people who claimed to have replicated the Searle machine.=
 If they could build a machine which would levitate your vehicle, power your=
 home, and cure you of every disease known to medical science, there would b=
e people lined up down the street waiting to buy it! Instead of arranging fo=
r us to see a prototype, Alexander chose to ignore me. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Meters have been fooled in the past. The water heating test had the blessing=
 of the late Otto Schmitt, professor emeritus of Physics, electrical enginee=
ring and zoology at the University of Minnesota, a pioneer in BioPhysics, fo=
rmer head of the Air Borne Instruments Laboratory, and a member of the Natio=
nal Academy of Science. With credentials such as this, he is respected by sc=
ientists in the real world. In Jack's World, I suppose that he would be rele=
gated to the status of a crack pot inventor, because he was after all an E E=
, in Jack's World, they, "just don't get it."</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=
 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; REPLY AS usual&nbsp;&nbs=
p; main stream science cannot relate to the real world.&nbsp; AND you can se=
e it visually also that what it is doing is not possible with out meters it=20=
is that plain to see&nbsp; IT either functions or not there are no in betwee=
ns.&nbsp; If it is use 110 V or 220 V and operating 3 phase EQ with squat&nb=
sp; for power draw.&nbsp; That is real simple to test. it takes 10 minutes t=
ops. You are talking about complicated BS&nbsp;&nbsp; SIMPLE&nbsp;&nbsp; SIM=
PLE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Why can't engineers think&nbsp; SIMPLE&nbs=
p; SIMPLE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NO THAT WOULD BE TO EASY&gt;&nbsp; Then anyone c=
ould think that way. ANd Eng. couldn't think they were better than everyone&=
nbsp; else. AS they do now. <BR>
<BR>
The machines designed by the E E's work very well in the real world, we inst=
all them all the time. Your decision that they don't work in Jack's World is=
 your problem. They obey certain rules, and all of the energy that they cons=
ume is accounted for. But the rules don't seem to apply in Jack's World. But=
 that's your problem.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCK=
QUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; OUR machines make those machines u=
se far less power that is something you cannot do PERIOD screw the rules&nbs=
p;&nbsp; CURRENT&nbsp; CONTAINS&nbsp; KINETIC ENERGY ASPECTS&nbsp; THAT ARE=20=
NOT USED PRESENTLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WELL WE USE THEM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; AND DO NOT NEED THE ASPECTS TO ANY EXTENT THAT ARE CURRENLY REQUIRED.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; wHICH IS AMPS&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU PEOPLE ARE STILL LOST&nbsp;&nbsp=
; YOU GOING TO BE BECAUSE YOUR HAVE NO MATH TO EXPLAIN.&nbsp;&nbsp; GET USE=20=
TO IT. BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY IT IS GOING TO BE. <BR>
<BR>
If you can do what you say you can, then my associates are interested in it.=
 But they are looking to make up for the money that they lost investing in t=
he last free energy machine. After you get burnt a few times, you start to g=
et careful. When something appears to contradict the rules, which are rules=20=
because they work, then you want to see a definitive test, before you invest=
. A machine which causes the electricity going in one end, to do 4 times the=
 work that they normally would,&nbsp; falls in the category of a machine whi=
ch breaks the rules.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; you still do not understand&nbsp; it does not do th=
at&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW LISTEN FOR ONCE IT CAUSES A SITUATION WHERE FAR LES=
S IS NEEDED&nbsp; your half to totally reverse your thinking </FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Then there is teleportation, which may exit in Jack's World=
, but there is no evidence that it exists in the real world. What kind of a=20=
kick ass weapons delivery system do you think such a machine would make? Dit=
to for transporting material to the front. If the military types knew how to=
 do it, do you think they would hesitate to use it?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IT HAS BEEN SHOWN ON MANY DOC'S&nbsp; T=
HEY USED FILM THAT WAS TAKEN AT THE TIME IN THE 30'S&nbsp; TESLA AND Einstei=
n working together only went so far with it to prove it could be done </FONT=
><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMIL=
Y=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Have you heard about the glut of automobile manufacturing c=
apability? What kind of a world beating vehicle, do you think a full sized S=
UV with a vaporizing carburetor, that got say 50 MPG, would be? I've been he=
aring these stories for years. Do you know were I can buy one? My friend Phi=
l who is a mechanical engineer, purchased a plan, or was it a kit from a web=
site like www.137milepergalloncarburator.com . He has yet to get anything wo=
rking<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; REply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; read the following&nbsp;&nbsp; i=
t is the solution <BR>
<BR>
GM 20 years ago was shown a new combustion concept and spent millions on it=20=
but could not perfect it. Because they did not want to pay the inventor for=20=
the next step info. But instead because of their not invented here syndrome=20=
backward thinking wasted a great deal of money attempting to Dev. the platfo=
rm. What do you except from GM ?&nbsp; I understand Toyota came the closest=20=
to perfecting the concept but did not. <BR>
<BR>
Back then you could have breathed the exhaust without harm to you. Because t=
he fuel would have been&nbsp; burned to a level that no converter would have=
 been required. The platform a 2 cycle 4 cycle concept was a 6 CY.&nbsp; tha=
t would have provided&nbsp; 8 CY. Power and would have had 4 CY. mileage. Th=
at concept now can be a closed loop system with no exhaust and the only resi=
due would be clean carbon that your lawn would love.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; When we showed the Chief Scientist of the Delphi Corp. the diagram du=
ring an&nbsp; advanced Tech. demonstration beyond anything they were knowled=
geable about. He recognized it. A ranking City official at the time attended=
 the meeting with us at their world HQ. Tech. center. That concept alone wou=
ld solve our current requirements of needing foreign oil. THE concept is for=
 sale. No prototype presently exists. Contact me if your interested at 810 6=
18 9234<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_ae.3931e49d.2b8258ff_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 07:34:49 2003
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02363;
	Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:30:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:30:33 -0800
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:27:52 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <002201c2d699$23936dc0$0a016ea8 cpq>
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I wish we now had a firm picture of the cost of Artic windmills, =
churning away and making hydrogen to be pumped down to the lower 48, and =
that this cost looked good, because, whatever else you may think about =
George Bush, he does appear to be a man of action.=20

If the price were not too high and he could give the pipeline and =
distribution contracts to his buddies in Houston, or wherever the new =
and improved Enron has relocated, he would go with it full speed ahead, =
damn the environmental torpedoes. I don't mean that in a cynical way, as =
there are times when this country needs a man of action, and Bush is =
that man.

And now, with the prime rate at historic lows, it is the time to issue a =
few hundred $Bs of new T-bills to finance the whole thing.

Prime rate and energy cost:

The cost of some forms of energy such as windpower and nuclear, are =
highly depended on the prime rate (or corporate bond rate). I suspect =
the same will hold true if and when any form of LENR hits the market. =
This is because fuel costs are minimal and most of the final cost is due =
to interest, amortization, and depreciation and maintenance

Since there appear to be no good guesstimate forthcoming on the cost of =
windpower, even assuming that the reports are true that it has come down =
to earth in recent years, (is it really 80% less?) I will have to resort =
to the nuclear option to express in rough form, the effects of prime =
rate on energy costs.

Prime Interest Rate Forecast for first half of 2003  =20
Feb        4.25
Mar        4.25
Apr         4.25
May        4.25
Jun         4.25
Jul          4.50

Even if the utility contemplating a purchase has cash on hand, the prime =
rate can be used as evidence of what a safe return on investment would =
be, so this figure is critical for energy costs. Now, it is at an =
historic lows for the modern era.

Critics of nuclear energy, including some well know ones like the Sierra =
Club, are fond of throwing out ridiculous cost comparisons and =
fear-tactic press releases that look bad for nuclear energy. The nuclear =
proponents are hardly less devious, but more in the way of a far =
different kind of "green" persuasion!

Despite good, but perhaps misplaced intentions on both sides, the =
one-sided "information" would do Herman Goering proud, as most of it is =
as misleading and sleazy as any bogus story that you will see in the =
grocery store checkout line. If you figure the costs of energy based on =
a prime rate of say, 12%, which critics of nuclear energy have been =
known to do, then it wildly distorts everything. The same would be even =
more true for wind, as I suspect the capital costs are even higher in =
proportion to the energy produced.

When an open market transaction occurs between a willing buyer and a =
willing seller, with no tax implications, it is easier to gauge the real =
costs. The sale last year of two CANDU 6 reactors to China, for example, =
can tell us much - as neither country can be said to be operating =
irrationally or for the other's benefit, and likely the Canadians made =
enormous profits, considering the risk.

The two 700 MW reactors cost about $4.0 billion Cdn for all the =
manufactured parts, the computer controls, the calandria, the initial =
fuel, the heavy water, steam system, generators, cooling, transformers, =
on-site assembly and training in what is pretty close to a turnkey sale. =
 The reactors have a 40 year life and are refueled with natural =
unenriched uranium (current market price is less than $10 per pound). If =
we add in the land acquisition cost and other local costs, another =
billion (probably less) and if the present value of fuel for 40 years is =
another $200 million (probably less) and we convert to USD, we will =
probably get it up to $3.4 billion US.

Here is a rough yearly cost breakdown using two different prime rates, =
the present 4.25% or inflated to 8.5 %, which could happen sooner than =
you think (in millions USD):

Yearly Interest   4.25 %                      $145
Yearly Interest   8.5 %                        $290

Depreciation 40 yrs                   $  80
Labor and mgt costs                  $ 20
(US rates)
Supplies, insurance,=20
    misc expense                         $ 15
Decommissioning=20
    contribution                              $ 15

total   4.25 %                            $275
total   8.5 %                              $420

Output per year (86%)         10.5 Million MWH=20
baseline

Cost/ kwh  prime=3D4.25          2.62 cents
Cost/ kwh  prime=3D8.5                4  cents

In both cases this includes a $600 million fee for decommissioning.=20

And in both cases if the depreciation/amortization expense of $80 =
million were used to decrease the debt, then cost of power would go down =
significantly over time. This is a rather high estimate for everything =
except interest, which is more than HALF of the cost of power!! Again, =
the same would likely be true for wind...

... therefore if windpower, especially Artic Windmills are anywhere near =
mature enough to be competitive with nuclear, then NOW is the time to go =
with it, and we know how the administration loves to despoil the Artic.

In three years the prime rate may well be up to that 8% range (because =
of all the borrowing done to finance the coming war).

Whether this arm's length sale is remotely applicable to US consumers, =
because of political realities, is anyone's guess, as our government =
would likely never permit the CANDU here, and the guys with the bucks, =
the General Electric company claim that their reactor cost 20 percent =
less anyway.

Otherwise it would seem reasonable, IF nuclear is ever needed again in =
the USA to buy Canadian.=20

It is the superior design, and despite the high cost of heavy water, it =
is competitive with fossil-fuel energy now, and at least in the case of =
CANDU 6, extremely safe (otherwise you could assume that China S. Korea =
and the other recent five international purchasers would have saved a =
few bucks and gone with the GE design. Even the third world isn't that =
stupid, but we seem to be.

Since the US Navy permits it aircraft carriers, with 4 GE reactors each, =
all using highly enriched fuel and manned by 19 year old seamen, to dock =
at any US port, doesn't it seem logical that a ship mounted nuclear =
reactor station, built to military standards in case of terrorism, =
should be the safest bet for most areas, particularly for California, =
due to earthquakes... HA ... alas, that would really mobilize the =
anti-nuke environmentalists

...political realities are just that...realities.

Jones                =20

                         =20


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<DIV>I wish we now had a firm picture of the cost of Artic windmills, =
churning=20
away and&nbsp;making hydrogen to be pumped down to the lower 48, and =
that this=20
cost looked good, because, whatever else&nbsp;you may think about George =
Bush,=20
he does appear to be a man of action. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If the price were not too high and he could give the pipeline and=20
distribution&nbsp;contracts to his buddies in Houston, or wherever the =
new and=20
improved Enron has relocated, he would go with it full speed ahead, damn =
the=20
environmental torpedoes. I don't mean that in a cynical way, as there =
are times=20
when this country needs a man of action, and Bush is that man.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And now, with the prime rate at historic lows, it is the time to =
issue a=20
few hundred $Bs of new T-bills to finance the whole thing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Prime rate and energy cost:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The cost of some forms of energy such as&nbsp;windpower and =
nuclear, are=20
highly depended on the prime rate (or corporate bond rate). I suspect =
the same=20
will hold true if and when any form of LENR hits the market. This is =
because=20
fuel costs are&nbsp;minimal and most of the final cost is due to =
interest,=20
amortization, and depreciation and maintenance</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Since there appear to be no good guesstimate forthcoming on the =
cost of=20
windpower, even assuming that the reports are true that it has come down =
to=20
earth in recent years, (is it really 80% less?) I will have to resort to =
the=20
nuclear option to express in rough form, the effects of prime rate on =
energy=20
costs.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Prime Interest Rate Forecast&nbsp;for first half of=20
2003&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>Feb&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
4.25<BR>Mar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
4.25<BR>Apr&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
4.25<BR>May&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
4.25<BR>Jun&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;4.25<BR>Jul&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;4.50<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Even if the utility contemplating a purchase has cash on hand, the =
prime=20
rate can be used as evidence of what a safe return on investment would =
be, so=20
this figure is critical for energy costs. Now, it is at an historic lows =
for the=20
modern era.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Critics of nuclear energy, including some well know ones like the =
Sierra=20
Club,&nbsp;are fond of throwing out ridiculous cost comparisons and =
fear-tactic=20
press releases that look bad for nuclear energy. The nuclear proponents =
are=20
hardly less devious, but more in the way of a far different kind of =
"green"=20
persuasion!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Despite good, but perhaps misplaced intentions on both sides, the=20
one-sided&nbsp;"information" would do Herman Goering proud, as most of =
it is as=20
misleading and sleazy as any bogus story that you will see in the =
grocery store=20
checkout line. If you figure the costs of energy based on a prime rate =
of say,=20
12%, which critics of nuclear energy have been known to do, then it =
wildly=20
distorts everything. The same would be even more true for wind, as I =
suspect the=20
capital costs are even higher in proportion to the energy =
produced.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When an open market transaction occurs between a willing buyer and =
a=20
willing seller, with no tax implications, it is easier to gauge the real =
costs.=20
The sale last year of two CANDU 6 reactors to China, for example, can =
tell us=20
much - as neither country can be said to be operating irrationally or =
for the=20
other's benefit, and likely the Canadians made enormous profits, =
considering the=20
risk.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The two 700 MW reactors&nbsp;cost about&nbsp;$4.0&nbsp;billion Cdn =
for all=20
the manufactured parts, the computer controls, the calandria, the =
initial fuel,=20
the&nbsp;heavy water, steam system, generators, cooling, transformers, =
on-site=20
assembly and training in what is pretty close to a turnkey sale.&nbsp; =
The=20
reactors have a 40 year life and are refueled with natural unenriched =
uranium=20
(current market price is less than $10 per pound). If we add in the land =

acquisition cost and other local costs, another billion (probably less) =
and if=20
the present value of fuel for 40 years is another $200 =
million&nbsp;(probably=20
less) and we convert to USD, we will probably get it up to $3.4 billion=20
US.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here is a rough yearly cost breakdown using two different prime =
rates, the=20
present 4.25% or inflated to 8.5 %, which could happen sooner than you =
think (in=20
millions USD):</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yearly Interest&nbsp;  4.25=20
%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
$145</DIV>
<DIV>Yearly Interest   8.5=20
%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
$290</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Depreciation 40=20
yrs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
$&nbsp; 80</DIV>
<DIV>Labor and mgt=20
costs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
$&nbsp;20</DIV>
<DIV>(US rates)</DIV>
<DIV>Supplies, insurance, </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
misc&nbsp;expense&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$=20
15</DIV>
<DIV>Decommissioning </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
contribution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$=20
15</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>total&nbsp;  4.25=20
%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$275</DIV>
<DIV>total&nbsp;  8.5=20
%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$420</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Output per year=20
(86%)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10.5 Million=20
MWH&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>baseline</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cost/=20
kwh&nbsp; prime=3D4.25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;2.62=20
cents</DIV>
<DIV>Cost/ kwh=20
 prime=3D8.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
4&nbsp; cents</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In both cases this includes&nbsp;a $600 million fee for =
decommissioning.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And in both cases if the depreciation/amortization expense of $80 =
million=20
were used to decrease the debt, then cost of power would go down =
significantly=20
over time. This is a rather high estimate for everything except =
interest, which=20
is more than HALF of the cost of power!! Again, the same would likely be =
true=20
for wind...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...&nbsp;therefore if windpower, especially Artic =
Windmills&nbsp;are=20
anywhere near&nbsp;mature enough to be competitive with nuclear, =
then&nbsp;NOW=20
is the time to go with it, and we know how the administration loves to =
despoil=20
the Artic.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In three years the prime rate may well be up to that 8% range =
(because of=20
all the borrowing done to finance the coming war).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Whether this arm's length sale is remotely applicable to US =
consumers,=20
because of political realities, is anyone's guess, as our government =
would=20
likely never permit&nbsp;the CANDU here, and the guys with the bucks, =
the=20
General Electric company&nbsp;claim that their reactor&nbsp;cost 20 =
percent less=20
anyway.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Otherwise it would&nbsp;seem reasonable, IF nuclear is ever needed =
again in=20
the USA to buy Canadian. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is the superior design, and despite the high cost of heavy =
water, it is=20
competitive with&nbsp;fossil-fuel energy now, and at least in the case =
of CANDU=20
6, extremely safe (otherwise you could assume that China S. Korea and =
the other=20
recent five international purchasers would have saved a few bucks and =
gone with=20
the GE design. Even the third world isn't that stupid, but we seem to =
be.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Since the US Navy permits it aircraft carriers, with 4 GE reactors =
each,=20
all using highly enriched fuel and&nbsp;manned by&nbsp;19 year old=20
seamen,&nbsp;to&nbsp;dock at any US port, doesn't it seem logical that a =
ship=20
mounted nuclear reactor station, built to military standards in case of=20
terrorism,&nbsp;should be the safest bet for most areas, particularly =
for=20
California, due to earthquakes... HA ... alas, that would really =
mobilize the=20
anti-nuke environmentalists</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...political realities are just that...realities.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 07:34:52 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:32:17 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
In-Reply-To: <002f01c2d546$63239ae0$0a016ea8 cpq>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030215160259.03059728 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030215172521.00b11d58 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030215174326.00b11158 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jones Beene wrote:

> >  [windpower] is more reliable
> > than nuclear power, in fact, because nuclear power plants have to be taken
> > off line periodically for refueling and maintenance. Wind farms take out
> > one turbine at a time for maintenance.
>
>Oops... You couldn't be more wrong.
>
>You have already admitted that windpower operates at 25%-30% of nameplate. 
>Many nuclear plants, especially the CANDU in Canada have operated for 
>years at greater than 100% of nameplate. This is a gigantic advantage, a 
>4-to1 advantage.

It is not an advantage because I took it into account already, in all 
computations. I meant that several wind farms distributed over a large area 
(1000 km or more) will always produce 25 to 30% of nameplate. Also, like 
the nuclear plants, wind turbines sometimes produce more than 100% of 
nameplate power.

Nuclear reactors can produce 100% of nameplate power but often they run 
~90%, according to AEC statistics. They are often unable to reach full 
power because of technical glitches, although in the last few years they 
have been closer to 100%. See, for example:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/event-status/event/2003/20030204en.html

Also they have to be turned off a couple of weeks per year for maintenance. 
Overall they produce 85 to 90% of nameplate power on average.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 07:57:12 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:53:01 EST
Subject: jed  rothwell your not responding 
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           JED     I have  been contacting you about your offer  . Gene 
Mallove has all ready tested the technology   he has it on tape    i have a 
unit for you    You said on the phone last year you would pay 20,000 for the 
lighter that operates with water only.  It is not for sale  but I let you 
know  in the future.   So the  Phase conversion unit is worth at least   
25,000  It proves the first new electrical  theory in 100 years and is in 
your world using your math.  800% eff.  But we do not claim that  we claim 
95%    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 08:46:48 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:36:25 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
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Jones Beene wrote:

>I wish we now had a firm picture of the cost of Artic windmills, churning 
>away and making hydrogen to be pumped down to the lower 48, and that this 
>cost looked good, because, whatever else you may think about George Bush, 
>he does appear to be a man of action.

It would make no sense to start with arctic installations. They are far 
from major users, and very rugged and expensive. The pipelines and 
equipment installation would be terribly expensive. (Natural gas pipelines 
might be converted to hydrogen, but not oil pipelines, I believe. Alaska 
natural gas is now shipped to Japan, as LNG.)

It would make more business sense to build pilot plants and the first large 
installations in Texas, then North and South Dakota. They are close to 
existing natural gas pipelines, they have a complete infrastructure of 
roads, and the climate is nowhere near as punishing. If the technology 
proves viable and profitable, then years later it might be a good idea to 
build arctic installations. I think it would be most economical to ship the 
hydrogen from the arctic to Japan, as LNG (LH, actually), rather than build 
pipelines to the U.S. Japan has no significant wind resources, and the U.S. 
can probably develop & deliver wind LH faster than the Chinese can.

TX, ND and SD together can produce a total of 3,430 billion kWh per year 
wind power with existing technology. According to NREL (1992) electrolysis 
is 65% efficient and it will be 75% efficient with advanced technology. 
Make it 70% by the time these plants are built. (By comparison, oil is 
about 90% efficient; it takes roughly 10% of the oil energy to drill wells, 
refine and deliver fuel to the pipeline.)

Assuming 70% efficient electrolysis, that's 2,401,000,000,000 kWh hydrogen 
energy, which equals . . . 1,463,000,000 barrels of oil. Or 1,463 Mbbl. If 
I have done the conversion correctly with:

http://www.processassociates.com/cgi-bin/convert.exe

Let's see . . . the U.S. imports 10.6 Mbbd (million barrels per day), so 
this would be equivalent to 138 days of imports per year; about 38% of 
imports. But this comparison is not fair. Hydrogen can be consumed far more 
efficiently than gasoline. Hydrogen fuel cells are 40 to 60% efficient, 
compared to conventional ICE at 20%. So, all in all, using existing 
technology, TX, ND and SD can probably replace all U.S. oil imports. With 
improved technology they can probably do a lot better than that. The cost 
would already be cheaper than oil when you factor in the cost of pollution. 
Assume 4 cents per kWh, and 70% electrolysis efficiency. 1 bbl = 1,641 kWh 
(conversion with no losses), so . . . it takes 2,344 kWh, which costs $94. 
But, as I said, fuel cells are far more efficient than ICE, and a fuel cell 
hybrid would be more efficient than an ICE hybrid. So, all in all, it is 
equivalent to $31 to $47 per barrel, about as much as oil costs at present, 
not counting the cost of pollution.

The cost of war in the Middle East and terrorist attacks financed by oil 
are very difficult to factor in, but even a rough estimate of these 
costs  demonstrates that hydrogen would be far cheaper. Also, by the time 
you build this many wind farms, the cost will fall from 4 cents to 2 cents, 
and the turbines would be 5 to 10 MW each. There are already plans to build 
turbines of this size. In ND or the North Sea, the capacity factor is 35 to 
40% (not 25 to 30%). A nuclear plant is about 85%, and a typical U.S. plant 
is 920 MW actual average output (not nameplate). So an array of 250 - 500 
of these giant turbines would be the equivalent of one average U.S. nuclear 
plant.

Bush would never support a program to do this. It would hurt fossil fuel 
profits. He will not support even a modest increase in fuel efficiency, of 
2 or 3 mpg, which would save far more oil than the Alaskan oil fields will 
ever produce.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 08:58:43 2003
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What does wind energy really cost?
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--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
> 
> Artic windmills! Cool, I LIKE that idea. There are several problems, 
> One is the materials necessary to stand up in the frigid conditions.

Metals and plastics.  no problem.  Electronic process controlers should
be hardeded for extreem cold.  Also not hard to do  (costs a little)
 
> Another one is piping the hydrogen down to where we need it. 

Actually it would probably be beter to keep it as electricity for
transportation (transmission) and convert it a localized conversion
stations.  

> Then, there is the problem of the environmentalists, I can hear them 
> squacking already.\

Honestly it is just the zealots that are a problem as the real
environmentalists will see the advantage.  The zealots can easily be made
to look all the fools that they are

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 09:55:41 2003
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Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
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In a message dated 2/17/2003 11:41:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> Hydrogen can be consumed far more 
> efficiently than gasoline. Hydrogen fuel cells are 40 to 60% efficient, 
> compared to conventional ICE at 20%. So, all in all, using existing 
> technology, TX, ND and SD can probably replace all U.S. oil imports. With 
> improved technology they can probably do a lot better than that. The cost 
> would already be cheaper than oil when you factor in the cost of pollution. 
> 

I hope that Bush considers this idea above. I will send this email to 
President Bush as recommendation.  Thank you for the information. 

Baron On Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/17/2003 11:41:55 AM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hydrogen can be consumed far mo=
re <BR>
efficiently than gasoline. Hydrogen fuel cells are 40 to 60% efficient, <BR>
compared to conventional ICE at 20%. So, all in all, using existing <BR>
technology, TX, ND and SD can probably replace all U.S. oil imports. With <B=
R>
improved technology they can probably do a lot better than that. The cost <B=
R>
would already be cheaper than oil when you factor in the cost of pollution.=20=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I hope that Bush considers this idea above. I will send this email to Presid=
ent Bush as recommendation.&nbsp; Thank you for the information. <BR>
<BR>
Baron On Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><=
BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 10:08:31 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 13:04:11 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
Cc: ConexTom aol.com, tom@rhfweb.com
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ConexTom aol.com wrote:

>I hope that Bush considers this idea above. I will send this email to 
>President Bush as recommendation.  Thank you for the information.

PLEASE DON'T!!! That was a quick, back of the envelope calculation. You can 
find much better, more authoritative information elsewhere. Please do not 
send a rough calculation to a public official. It is unlikely that anyone 
would read the message, but if you do get someone's attention it is very 
important to put your best foot forward and provide the best, most 
accurate, up-to-date information. I would spend a week or two composing a 
letter to a public official, not a half-hour.

I was able to write this in a half-hour because I have the stats at my 
fingertips. This would be a starting point for a message to an official, an 
op-ed article in a newspaper, or an article in I.E. Add three weeks of hard 
work and you have something worth presenting.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 10:19:17 2003
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
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--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
> It would make more business sense to build pilot plants and the first
> large 
> installations in Texas, then North and South Dakota. They are close to 
> existing natural gas pipelines, they have a complete infrastructure of 
> roads, and the climate is nowhere near as punishing. 

Hay now!  (another Texas way to say  "Woha there!"

Hay now!  (another  way to say "Whoa there bubba!")
Absolutely not a good idea to build "Large installations in Texas.
Furthermore you will find the same problem straight through the central
US and into south central Canada.  A windmill here or there is OK.  A
Large patch of the central plains covered by wind machines is asking for
a deadly disaster of monumental proportion. e.g.   We have tornados and
softball sized hail here.   "and the climate is nowhere near as
punishing."  ???  Yah.  Tell that to folks in OKC...
I don't mean to snap at you Jed but this particular subject is a rather
big sore spot with me.  After arguing the point with the bunch at Enron
then having Enron scatter just when they finally understood.  I have to
start over.  
Imagine if you will an F2 size storm (fairly common) ripping through a
wind farm and dislodging some 50 or 60 windmill blades.  Without asking
you to study storm structure I can tell you that these storms tend to
hold onto large rigid objects and deposit them as much as 20 miles from
where it got them.  (this has been the fate of many a pickup truck.   
Now imagine your wind farm was located in east end of Johnson county TX. 
No need to look at a map, its about 10 miles south west of The most
densely populated suburb in the DFW metroplex.  Now picture your windmill
blades falling out of the clouds spining like a maple seeds over a debris
path about 5 miles wide and 10 miles long.  Landing in dense residential
arias.  Leveling dozens of homes and a three of four two story apartment
buildings. 
As a storm spotter I can tell you I don't really appreciate somebody just
handing a tornado a fist full of masteries.  I also don't appreciate
having to explain this over and over again every time someone figures out
the we have wind here.  We also have violent shearing winds that are
known for striping pavement off the roads and relocating 5000lbs pickup
trucks 10 miles downrange.  Wind power is a great solution and I see a
bright future for it.  In the arctic,  on the coastlines,  and yes even
in the central plains.  But the wind farm has no place here.          
A Larger F2 is able to rip all of the windows out of a 7 story office
building while having enough force left over to twist it on its
foundation.  Then go on without even loosing any of its apparent
destructive power.  

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 10:28:29 2003
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http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html

"More than 20 leading scientific journals have made a pact to censor 
articles that they believe could compromise national security, regardless 
of their scientific merit. ....The journals Science, Nature, The 
Proceedings of the National Academy of Science and several others which 
together constitute a primary vehicle for spreading scientific research 
around the world plan to publish editorials supporting and explaining the 
policy this week. "



Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com 
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<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html</a><br><br>
&quot;More than 20 leading scientific journals have made a pact to censor
articles that they believe could compromise national security, regardless
of their scientific merit. ....The journals Science, Nature, The
Proceedings of the National Academy of Science and several others which
together constitute a primary vehicle for spreading scientific research
around the world plan to publish editorials supporting and explaining the
policy this week. &quot;<br><br>
<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steve Krivit<br>
Los Angeles, CA USA<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com<br>
www.coldfusioninfo.com</a></body>
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This is the dumbest idea I have heard from intelligent
people in a long time.  First of all, what criteria is used
to make this decision?  The National Security Act and the
Atomic Energy Act already provide a mechanism to deny
certain information.  How will a bunch of editors who have
no understanding of what is important to the country as a
whole arrive at their collective decision.?  We also have
common sense which editors apply all the time without making
it a policy.  Unfortunately, nothing stops such information
from being placed on the internet where much harmful
information already exists, information that no journal
would touch even in the absence of such a policy.
Obviously, fear is starting to overtake common sense in
making policy.

Ed

stevek wrote:

> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html
>
> "More than 20 leading scientific journals have made a pact
> to censor articles that they believe could compromise
> national security, regardless of their scientific merit.
> ....The journals Science, Nature, The Proceedings of the
> National Academy of Science and several others which
> together constitute a primary vehicle for spreading
> scientific research around the world plan to publish
> editorials supporting and explaining the policy this week.
> "
>
>
> Steve Krivit
> Los Angeles, CA USA
> www.newenergytimes.com
> www.coldfusioninfo.com

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
This is the dumbest idea I have heard from intelligent people in a long
time.&nbsp; First of all, what criteria is used to make this decision?&nbsp;
The National Security Act and the Atomic Energy Act already provide a mechanism
to deny certain information.&nbsp; How will a bunch of editors who have
no understanding of what is important to the country as a whole arrive
at their collective decision.?&nbsp; We also have common sense which editors
apply all the time without making it a policy.&nbsp; Unfortunately, nothing
stops such information from being placed on the internet where much harmful
information already exists, information that no journal would touch even
in the absence of such a policy.&nbsp; Obviously, fear is starting to overtake
common sense in making policy.
<p>Ed
<p>stevek wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html</a>
<p>"More than 20 leading scientific journals have made a pact to censor
articles that they believe could compromise national security, regardless
of their scientific merit. ....The journals Science, Nature, The Proceedings
of the National Academy of Science and several others which together constitute
a primary vehicle for spreading scientific research around the world plan
to publish editorials supporting and explaining the policy this week. "
<br>&nbsp;
<p><x-sigsep>
<p></x-sigsep>Steve Krivit
<br>Los Angeles, CA USA
<br><a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a>
<br><a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.coldfusioninfo.com</a></blockquote>
</html>

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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:41:04 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>

> It would make more business sense to build pilot plants and the first large 
> installations in Texas, then North and South Dakota. They are close to 
> existing natural gas pipelines, they have a complete infrastructure of 
> roads, and the climate is nowhere near as punishing. 

>  According to NREL (1992) electrolysis 
> is 65% efficient and it will be 75% efficient with advanced technology. 


I believe hydrogen from water-splitting might possibly get even way better than 75% in the short term.

...and the scrub lands of west Texas should be ideal for the next step, which will probably be not plain-vanilla electrolysis at 75% but photoelectochemical water splitting at a combined efficiency approaching 100%.

IF as you say, the best winds are occuring when the sun is shining, then why not combine two technologies into one output!

The DOE Hydrogen Program has been funding  photocelectrical production of hydrogen at the University of Hawaii though several stages. I'll try to find the citation.

It is far cheaper to use solar to get hydrogen directly from water than to use photovoltaics to give you electricity, for a number of reasons that I won't get into, but we all know that silicon photocells are very expensive, relative to their output, with little real hope of coming down in cost. 

For water-splitting the economics are far more favorable EVEN without an external source of electricity so just think what could happen in a synergy with windpower... they have already achieved greater efficiency than 10% using NO external power and it is likely that it can approach 100% when used with an external source of electricity.

... even if there is no synergy adding the 10% to the 75% gives you 85% immediately.

Why haven't they thought about the obvious connection and the possibility for synergy there?

Note, this is a quick post from recollection and maybe this is already being done, after all it is pretty obvious, isn't it?

Jones


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In a message dated 2/17/2003 1:05:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> I was able to write this in a half-hour because I have the stats at my 
> fingertips. This would be a starting point for a message to an official, an 
> 
> op-ed article in a newspaper, or an article in I.E. Add three weeks of hard 
> 
> work and you have something worth presenting.

Thanks, I will not send any more emails that are posted at this web site, to 
the general public or to public officials, since they are rough outlines.  I 
work for the republican party, and I can send emails directly to officials 
and the general public.  If you have a more formal and professional public 
letter, you may send this to me, and I can then send it to public officials 
by email to support wind farms. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/17/2003 1:05:01 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I was able to write this in a h=
alf-hour because I have the stats at my <BR>
fingertips. This would be a starting point for a message to an official, an=20=
<BR>
op-ed article in a newspaper, or an article in I.E. Add three weeks of hard=20=
<BR>
work and you have something worth presenting.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thanks, I will not send any more emails that are posted at this web site, to=
 the general public or to public officials, since they are rough outlines.&n=
bsp; I work for the republican party, and I can send emails directly to offi=
cials and the general public.&nbsp; If you have a more formal and profession=
al public letter, you may send this to me, and I can then send it to public=20=
officials by email to support wind farms. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 11:19:29 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:12:26 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>


>   We have tornados and softball sized hail here.  

Charles,

I'm not turning pro-windmill just yet - at leasat not until somebody can produce "real" cost figures, with the manufacturer's name for cross-checking, instead of these pie-in-the-sky after-tax estimates, but...

...don't the modern towers have some fold-down or fail safe mechanism to prevent tornado damge?

>  After arguing the point with the bunch at Enron
> then having Enron scatter just when they finally understood.  I have to
> start over.  

Are you sayin that Enron actually considered it as an investment... or was it another one of their tax scams...i.e. using the tax coed as a profit center?

Jones

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  Publishing
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Ed:

 >Unfortunately, nothing stops such information from being placed on the 
internet where much harmful information already exists, >information that 
no journal would touch even in the absence of such a policy.  Obviously, 
fear is starting to overtake common sense >in making policy.


In my altruistic view of the world,  I like to think of the Internet as 
"The Great Equalizer".

As far as my own web publishing efforts, unless my life is threatened,  I 
will not be censoring and will do my best to support the 
distribution,  availability and redundancy of data in this field.


Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com 
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<html>
<body>
Ed:<br><br>
&gt;Unfortunately, nothing stops such information from being placed on
the internet where much harmful information already exists,
&gt;information that no journal would touch even in the absence of such a
policy.&nbsp; Obviously, fear is starting to overtake common sense &gt;in
making policy. <br><br>
<br>
In my altruistic view of the world,&nbsp; I like to think of the Internet
as &quot;The Great Equalizer&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>
As far as my own web publishing efforts, unless my life is
threatened,&nbsp; I will not be censoring and will do my best to support
the distribution,&nbsp; availability and redundancy of data in this
field. <br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steve Krivit<br>
Los Angeles, CA USA<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com<br>
www.coldfusioninfo.com</a></body>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 11:33:32 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Journals to Consider U.S. Security (censorship) in Publishing
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:46:05 -0500
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Yup, the purple Kool-aide is flowing, care for a sip???

BTW, Privacy International is running a contest for the
most boneheaded security measures, the winner to be
announced in April. Here's the contest URL

http://www.privacyinternational.org/activities/stupidsecurity/

I've got my duct tape, plastic sheeting, and butyl nitrite
(poppers) for cyanide poisoning. I'm not sure whether
it's armageddon, or I'm supposed to be hosting a gay S&M
party circa 1975. Perhaps both? I've heard these NeoCon's
can get pretty crazy when the camera is off (grin).

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 12:51 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Journals to Consider U.S. Security (censorship) in Publishing


This is the dumbest idea I have heard from intelligent people in a long
time.  First of all, what criteria is used to make this decision?  The
National Security Act and the Atomic Energy Act already provide a mechanism
to deny certain information.  How will a bunch of editors who have no
understanding of what is important to the country as a whole arrive at their
collective decision.?  We also have common sense which editors apply all the
time without making it a policy.  Unfortunately, nothing stops such
information from being placed on the internet where much harmful information
already exists, information that no journal would touch even in the absence
of such a policy.  Obviously, fear is starting to overtake common sense in
making policy.
Ed
stevek wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html
"More than 20 leading scientific journals have made a pact to censor
articles that they believe could compromise national security, regardless of
their scientific merit. ....The journals Science, Nature, The Proceedings of
the National Academy of Science and several others which together constitute
a primary vehicle for spreading scientific research around the world plan to
publish editorials supporting and explaining the policy this week. "

Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 11:42:30 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:37:22 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Really giant towers and turbines?
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Here is an interesting materials breakthrough from BYU:

http://www.byu.edu/news/releases/archive02/May/pyramatrix.htm

As I mentioned, wind turbines of five or ten megawatts are now on the 
drawing board. According to this article some 5 MW units are being 
installed. Transporting the tower material for them costs about $1 million. 
(It would cost a lot more to transport it to the Arctic!) BYU has developed 
a strong, lightweight building material that would greatly reduce this 
cost. It can support "almost 200 times its own weight."

I wonder how big these towers and blades might become? Assume that CF is 
not developed, and wind is developed intensively instead. I suppose that 
when the limits of materials are reached and wind turbine technology 
matures 50 to 100 years from now, towers might as tall as the World Trade 
Center - 417 meters -- or perhaps even taller. This should be possible with 
advanced materials for the tower and turbine blades. I doubt any material 
could make a blade longer than ~1000 meters. They might produce 50 - 100 MW 
(nameplate) each, and cost $100 million. They would capture far more wind 
than today's best actual and near-term technology. Today's highest towers 
are 80 meters tall, and tower + blade go about 110 meters high. The 
estimates for the wind resources in Texas, the Dakotas or the North Sea are 
predicated on the ability to reach a certain distance into the sky, about 
100 meters, I think. If you could reach 4 times higher, you could intercept 
a great deal more more moving air. Furthermore, the higher you go, the more 
steady and predictable the breeze is.

A 100 MW turbine in a prime location would produce 40 MW actual. It would 
take an array of only 23 towers to replace one average U.S. nuclear plant. 
One average nuclear plant produces roughly 1.5 percent of all U.S. 
electricity, so it would take 1,533 of these towers to power the entire 
U.S. The base of the towers would be very narrow compared to tall buildings 
such as the World Trade Center, so 23 towers would take up little ground 
space; probably about as much as a nuclear power reactor. They would take 
up no ground space in Europe, where they would be built at sea.

Looking at present day technology, the biggest insulation now under 
construction will have 200 towers, 80 m tall each, 520 MW nameplate (2.6 MW 
each). It is offshore in Ireland where the capacity factor is 35 to 40%. It 
costs $630 million. That's $1,200/kW nameplate. Adjusting for the capacity 
factors, it is 208 MW actual, or ~$3,000 per kWh. Most fossil fuel plants 
cost between $400 and $800 per kWh. Recent nuclear plants cost $3 to $5 
billion to build, and God only knows how much they will cost to unbuild. 
Anyway, nuclear plants cost ~$5,500 per kWh capacity (nameplate) or ~$6,400 
actual. That's the cost when everything works right. You may have a trivial 
but unlucky accident that gets out of hand, and multiplies that by some 
unpredictable factor. As I said, a small accident that would disrupt a 
conventional plant or wind turbine for a week may cost hundreds of million 
of dollars in direct damage, and the loss of 2 or 30 years of revenue. This 
is not a theoretical possibility. It has actually happened to five U.S. 
nuclear power plants so far: Browns Ferry (an accident with a candle), 
Rancho Seco (a light bulb in the control panel), Three Mile Island (stuck 
valve), Connecticut Yankee (incorrectly installed fuel rod) and Davis-Besse 
(corrosion).

The 300 MW Enrico Fermi I breeder reactor was the most extreme case. Like 
the Japanese Monju breeder reactor, it cost billions (adjusted), it took 
ten years to build, and it suffered a catastrophic accident a week after 
opening -- a partial meltdown, serious enough that officials considered 
ordering an evacuation of Detroit, 40 miles away. It was rebuilt several 
times. When it was finally abandoned, it had run for a total of ~30 hours. 
Breeder reactor reliability is in a class by itself.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 12:01:12 2003
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Keith:

<ggg>  thanks for the laughs :)

And the King said,  "Let them have duct tape and plastic sheets!"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 12:01:57 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
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Charles Ford wrote:

>Hay now!  (another  way to say "Whoa there bubba!")
>Absolutely not a good idea to build "Large installations in Texas.
>Furthermore you will find the same problem straight through the central
>US and into south central Canada.  A windmill here or there is OK.  A
>Large patch of the central plains covered by wind machines is asking for a 
>deadly disaster of monumental proportion. e.g.   We have tornados and 
>softball sized hail here.

I believe we have discussed this before. It is very unlikely that wind 
towers would be a menace even in the most extreme storms. They resemble 
three things which are not a hazard as far as I know:

1. Heavily reinforced bridges or tall steel and concrete buildings. (The 
towers).

2. Railroad engines. (The electric generator portion. This is built heavy 
in order to last for decades. Weight and durability trade off).

4. Helicopter and airplane wings. (The rotor blades. They are attached to 
the generator with more enough strength to withstand a 2.5 MW torque.)

Large, heavy airplanes and helicopters do not fly out of Texas airports and 
rain down on people's houses during extreme storms. Small airplanes 
probably do, from time to time. Light towers for radio broadcasts and the 
towers used for power lines sometimes blow down in extreme weather, but 
they do not blow far away. Wind generator towers must be made much stronger 
than radio towers, since the torque is so huge. The power generated by a 
large wind turbine under full load is more than the largest helicopter 
engine. Helicopter blades seldom tear lose under full load. Airplane jet 
engines do sometime disintegrate, but I believe high temperature is the 
main culprit, rather than the high power.

During extreme storms, wind turbine blade are automatically feathered. That 
does not mean they cannot be torn lose, but when you consider the load they 
normally bear, it is hard to imagine a severe storm blowing a feathered 
blade could be worse.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 12:03:34 2003
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From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:03:29 -0600
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:14:39 -0800 (PST), Charles Ford
<cjford1 yahoo.com> wrote:

>Imagine if you will an F2 size storm (fairly common) ripping through a
>wind farm 

That's happened -- with an F4.

>and dislodging some 50 or 60 windmill blades.  

That didn't happen.  The turbines that were directly hit weren't
damaged.  (The wind farm operator shut the generators down prior to
the storm.)

You can see two, relatively small wind farms (50-60 wind generators
each) in northern Iowa from I-35.  They're to the west of I-35 at mile
markers 208 and 185.  The wind farm at 208 is about 4 miles west (near
the town of Joice) and the wind farm at 185 about 8 miles west.

There are other wind farms along Buffalo Ridge that runs from
north-central Iowa, through southwestern Minnesota, into eastern South
Dakota.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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--- Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
> I wish we now had a firm picture of the cost of Artic windmills,
> churning away and making hydrogen to be pumped down to the lower 48,
> and that this cost looked good, because, whatever else you may think
> about George Bush, he does appear to be a man of action. 

Actually the real cost is simpler then that.

((Cost of equipment + maintance for lifespan)/lifespan ) / output.

The rest is not the cost of the energy but the profit for the bank.

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Subject: Re: Journals to Consider U.S. Security (censorship) in Publishing 
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Seems simple enough.  They choose not to publish because of possible
national security risks.  

Note   They choose to do this.    it is not censorship.  

--- stevek <stevek dlsi.net> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/science/16SECR.html
> 
> "More than 20 leading scientific journals have made a pact to censor 
> articles that they believe could compromise national security,
> regardless 
> of their scientific merit. ....The journals Science, Nature, The 
> Proceedings of the National Academy of Science and several others which
> 
> together constitute a primary vehicle for spreading scientific research
> 
> around the world plan to publish editorials supporting and explaining
> the 
> policy this week. "
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Krivit
> Los Angeles, CA USA
> <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
> www.coldfusioninfo.com 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 12:37:56 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 12:31:03 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Really giant towers and turbines?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>

> Looking at present day technology, the biggest insulation now under 
> construction will have 200 towers, 80 m tall each, 520 MW nameplate (2.6 MW 
> each). It is offshore in Ireland where the capacity factor is 35 to 40%. It 
> costs $630 million. That's $1,200/kW nameplate. Adjusting for the capacity 
> factors, it is 208 MW actual, or ~$3,000 per kWh. 

I hope not. $3,000/kwh is astronomical. At present prime rates, this works out to $128 per kwh for yearly interest alone for windpower. I can only assume that you got something wrong. But how could I suspect otherwise considering what follows.

> Recent nuclear plants cost $3 to $5 billion to build, 

Yes, as stated in a previous post, the recent reactors sold to China will result in an operational plant costing about $3.4 billion US, with a yearly output in kwh of 10.5 Million MWH at 86% which is average for all CANDU 6 reactors. This is the same as saying 10.5 billion kwh. 

> Anyway, nuclear plants cost ~$5,500 per kWh capacity (nameplate) or ~$6,400 
> actual. That's the cost when everything works right. 

Whoa nellie. Aren't you confusing capacity with output? You are many orders of magnitude too high.

That's a pretty elementary error. I think Robin posted on this last week. The two are quite different. Hint: a year has 8,760 hours. 

Come back when you get this clear in your own mind and are able to recast your figures for windpower in accepted terminology, and then perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion about actual costs.

BTW from what I can only assume is where your many errors lie, it appears that wind will be about four times higher in cost per actual kwh sent to the grid.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 13:34:53 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Accelerated Solenoid  Field Reduction?
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:28:54 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 17 Feb 2003 06:01:17 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

I don't think it will make any difference if the cell is rotated along with the coil (no relative motion). Of course if the cell doesn't rotate, then you have the makings of a homopolar generator, and there should be some change in current (increase or decrease depending on the direction of rotation).

>Relativity Question:
>
>If a 1/2 inch diameter (D) "rod" rotating at a router speed of 25,000 RPM (N)
>experiences a "g" force
>of 14.2e-6*D*N^2 = 4,437 "g"s.
>
>Would rotating a solenoid coil surrounding a AAA dry cell powering the coil winding,
>reduce it's pull on a magnet or a ferromagnetic material axially mounted near the end
>of the coil, decrease as the coil rotation (router) speed increased?
>
>Fred

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 13:40:41 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
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At 10:14 AM 2/17/3, Charles Ford wrote:
> A
>Large patch of the central plains covered by wind machines is asking for
>a deadly disaster of monumental proportion. e.g.   We have tornados and
>softball sized hail here.

If wind machines represented a major problem then so would telephone poles,
tranmission towers, mobile homes, pickup trucks, cities, etc.  Windmill
blades should not represent much more aerodynmic capabilities than an
ordinary beam.

All our guesswork about this is moot, however.  The real risk numbers will
be derived by actuaries, and will (or currently are) represented in the
cost of insurance for windmills.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 13:41:06 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates
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At 10:41 AM 2/17/3, Jones Beene wrote:

>Note, this is a quick post from recollection and maybe this is already
>being done, after all it is pretty obvious, isn't it?
>
>Jones


You may recall that I posted here on vortex various designs for obtaining
electrolysis  directly form mechanical motion.  None guaranteed to work
cost effectively of course!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 13:43:46 2003
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Subject: Re: Really giant towers and turbines?
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Jones Beene wrote:

> > costs $630 million. That's $1,200/kW nameplate. Adjusting for the capacity
> > factors, it is 208 MW actual, or ~$3,000 per kWh.
>
>I hope not. $3,000/kwh is astronomical. At present prime rates, this works 
>out to $128 per kwh for yearly interest alone for windpower.

Oops! I meant per kW -- kilowatt of capacity.

This cost is quite reasonable. As I said, the nameplate cost is $1,200 per 
kW. These turbines in Ireland will output about 40% of rated nameplate 
capacity average per year. Compare that to conventional fossil fuel 
generators which cost $400 to $800 per kW of capacity, and typically output 
about 60% of nameplate capacity average per year.

Nuclear plants cost $5,500 per kW capacity to build and they output 85 - 
90% of nameplate capacity. The will probably cost 2 to 5 times the 
construction cost to decommission. It costs very little to decommission a 
fossil fuel plant or wind turbine. The towers built after 1990 will 
probably be usable for a century or more.


>BTW from what I can only assume is where your many errors lie, it appears 
>that wind will be about four times higher in cost per actual kwh sent to 
>the grid.

Please look at actual industry figures. They show that in most locations 
where wind is now used, it costs less than nuclear power, and about the 
same as coal or natural gas. Not "four times more" -- about equal. About 4 
cents per kWh. It would cost a fortune in Georgia or Japan because we do 
not have any wind.

Wind is about equal after taking into account various government subsidies 
for coal, natural gas and wind. It is far cheaper when you take into 
account things such a pollution, war and global warming.

As for nuclear power, it is nearly impossible to set a realistic estimate 
on the cost, but it is surely higher than the actual tariffed amounts 
companies charge for the power. Most of cost is paid for by Uncle Sam. This 
has always been the case. In 1952, J. B. Conant wrote:

"It is impossible today or in the foreseeable future to have a frank, 
rational, searching discussion of the industrial uses of atomic energy. The 
general public might just as well stop reading anything in the papers about 
atomic energy . . .

Whether or not an atomic power plant is producing power at a cost 
competitive with a coal or oil burning plant can only be determined by an 
engineering and cost accounting analysis; these analyses are always subject 
to argument and, to be trustworthy, must be made public. This would require 
the publication of such secret information as the cost of nuclear fuel, the 
cost of the plant, and the details of the operation, including the handling 
of the radioactive waste products. That any government can make such 
information public in the foreseeable future is extremely doubtful."

- Modern Science and Modern Man, p. 29

Conant overlooked the cost of decommissioning, which may be the biggest 
expense of all. Subsequently, despite his prediction, details were made 
public, but the data is highly suspect. In fact, no one knows what these 
things cost. In 1956, the insurance companies said they could not cover any 
nuclear plant, because the costs and risks are so murky. Congress exempted 
the industry, in the Price-Anderson act. Every time the act has come up for 
renewal, as recently as last year, the insurance industry has said the same 
thing. They say nuclear power is impenetrably complex and too risky to be 
covered by all worldwide private sources combined. That is, by an insurance 
pool -- the sort of thing that paid for the 1906 and 1989 San Francisco 
earthquakes and the destruction of the WTC. From a conservative, business 
point of view (mine), it is perfectly insane to operate an installation on 
this basis.

The insurance companies know that 6 out of the 120 power reactors built in 
the U.S. have self-destructed in catastrophic accidents triggered by 
trivial incidents, such as a lit candle or burnt-out light bulb. These six 
accidents have cost billions of dollars, making this by far the least 
reliable means of producing power ever invented. Imagine if trivial 
incidents destroyed 5% of coal plants, dams and wind turbines! Trivial 
incidents such as leaving a valve open have destroyed conventional 
generator plants, but nowhere near as often.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 13:55:53 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Really giant towers and turbines?
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At 2:37 PM 2/17/3, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I wonder how big these towers and blades might become? Assume that CF is
>not developed, and wind is developed intensively instead. I suppose that
>when the limits of materials are reached and wind turbine technology
>matures 50 to 100 years from now, towers might as tall as the World Trade
>Center - 417 meters -- or perhaps even taller. This should be possible with
>advanced materials for the tower and turbine blades. I doubt any material
>could make a blade longer than ~1000 meters.


This higlights the advantage Alaska has: thousands of miles of mountain
ridges at about 5000 feet.  With high average wind speed at high altitudes,
the blades don't have to be so big, just light and strong.

Oh, one other thing, we don't get tornados here in Alaska.  Well, actully,
not yet anyway.  The way the place is warming up that might be the next
thing to happen.  We actually had a number of thunderstorms here last
summer - another fairly unusual thing here in Southcentral Alaska.  Right
now we have no snow on the ground.  It has been above freezing.  The
Iditarod has been moved several hundred miles north to Fairbanks.  Wierd.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 14:07:56 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Accelerated Solenoid  Field Reduction?
Cc: <little earthtech.org>
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At 6:01 AM 2/17/3, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Relativity Question:
>
>If a 1/2 inch diameter (D) "rod" rotating at a router speed of 25,000 RPM (N)
>experiences a "g" force
>of 14.2e-6*D*N^2 = 4,437 "g"s.
>
>Would rotating a solenoid coil surrounding a AAA dry cell powering the
>coil winding,
>reduce it's pull on a magnet or a ferromagnetic material axially mounted
>near the end
>of the coil, decrease as the coil rotation (router) speed increased?
>
>Fred

No.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 14:46:43 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:43:02 -0500
From: == WWWqWWW == Thunderbird <d-choma att.net>
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I'm running a few days behind so I don't actually know if
JCAREY is still a subscribed member.


Do you realize that we are missing a great opportunity here?

This is the ultimate over unity device AND IT WORKS!

Just input a few lines to Mr. CAREY and we get back
massive quantities. And the quality of the input doesn't
matter at all.  Good, Bad, Indifferent -- just a little input
will be amplified beyond all reason.

If you really do wish to clog Vortex then everyone make
a short post and mention Mr. CAREY.

I, myself, am expecting a GREAT return from this post
alone since I mentioned his name multiple times.


Greg Salyards



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:01:17 2003
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In a message dated 2/17/03 5:46:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, d-choma att.net 
writes:


> Do you realize that we are missing a great opportunity here?
> 
> This is the ultimate over unity device AND IT WORKS!
> 
> Just input a few lines to Mr. CAREY and we get back
> massive quantities. And the quality of the input doesn't
> matter at all.  Good, Bad, Indifferent -- just a little input
> will be amplified beyond all reason.

>       REPLY  HE used the correct term to an extent for the concept instead 
> of what everyone uses which is times. 

> f you really do wish to clog Vortex then everyone make
> a short post and mention Mr. CAREY.
> 
> I, myself, am expecting a GREAT return from this post
> alone since I mentioned his name multiple times.
>         REPLY    Greg is playing with you bill make him go away he is 
> making fools of us because we can not explain what he is talking about cry 
> baby's 
> 
> Greg Salyards
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/17/0=
3 5:46:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, d-choma att.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Do you realize that we are miss=
ing a great opportunity here?<BR>
<BR>
This is the ultimate over unity device AND IT WORKS!<BR>
<BR>
Just input a few lines to Mr. CAREY and we get back<BR>
massive quantities. And the quality of the input doesn't<BR>
matter at all.&nbsp; Good, Bad, Indifferent -- just a little input<BR>
will be amplified beyond all reason.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
REPLY&nbsp; HE used the correct term to an extent for the concept instead of=
 what everyone uses which is times. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">f you really do wish to clog Vortex then everyone make<BR>
a short post and mention Mr. CAREY.<BR>
<BR>
I, myself, am expecting a GREAT return from this post<BR>
alone since I mentioned his name multiple times.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Greg is p=
laying with you bill make him go away he is making fools of us because we ca=
n not explain what he is talking about cry baby's <BR>
<BR>
Greg Salyards<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_2b.3922f9e9.2b82c2aa_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:15:47 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:10:52 EST
Subject: off topic other things
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It's fun working on new energy.  If you do to much of it you will become 
unbalanced.
I try to balance my life.
Here is a map with pictures of my home town.  Take a walk with me in 
Pennsylvania.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/index.html">
ParksJohnstown 
</A> 
We have had a lot of snow.  Help me find my dog Maggie.  It's so stupid its 
fun.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/snow.html">Find Maggie
</A>

I'm looking forward to better weather and a warm future.

Frank Z 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:22:55 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:19:16 EST
Subject: Relax
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Jcarney has you upset.  I made an animation to help.  Watch the planets and 
listen to the music, have a glass of wine.  You will feed better.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/znidarsicf/script.html">
http://members.aol.com/znidarsicf/script.html</A> 


Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:26:34 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:20:14 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: The truth about giant towers and turbines
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Jed,

> Nuclear plants cost $5,500 per kW capacity to build and they
will probably cost 2 to 5 times the  construction cost to decommission. 

This is absolute Sierra Club hogwash.

Or to put it another way, did you know that three entire windfarms were closed in the UK for safety reasons in April 2000?  

Despite this being factually true, while the Rothwell statement is factually false, it is irrelevant about where we go from here with the latest technology that each industry has to offer. That is what we should be discussing- Not repeating false anti-nuke rhetoric.
 
I gave the actual figures for a very recent international, arms-length, well documented sale that has NO political overtones - and all Rothwell can do is respond with blatantly false BS, based on "facts" that he got from some anti-nuclear outfit.

The recent arms-length transaction in question was $3.4 billion US for 1400 MW CANDU 6, the safest and most economical reactor ever built. This represents the present best alternative to fossil fuels that the world nuclear industry has to offer, but can windpower do better?

I would honestly like to know, because I want to support this technology, but nothing I have heard so far is of very much help getting to an actual cost per kwh for an operating wind farm.

A recently purchased CANDU 6 reactor in S Korea achieved102% of faceplate operation in the year 2000. That means it worked for every second of every hour of every month at over its rated capacity, on average. These reactors use natural uranium which now costs $10 pound and they create more fissile fuel than they burn, and they produce electricity at a cost of about 2.6 cents per kwh.

The true actual cost is $2, 430 per kw capacity, 60% less than Rothwell quoted, and the CANDU 6  have a long history of safe and reliable operation, unlike windpower which has no completely safe and reliable record of operation, anywhere in the world, at least according to the reference below. One big storm off of Ireland, which is inevitable, and there will be nothing but airfoils and wakes (of the Irish variety). Ask Nigel Barnes, he has composed an anti-wind web site.

The figures for nuclear are not in dispute, they cannot be in dispute, because they are in the public record. The decommissioning point is a red herring, were it not for the activists. No Canadian reactor has ever cost over 30% of its original cost to decommission, and they are now saying that the figure I quoted, $600 million, and used in the cost calculations, is accurate and even generous for the reactor sold.

Such willingness to buy into to an obviously false position is outrageous... Everybody wants windpower if it can meet the competition or even get into the same ball park, and that should be what this discussion is about. Not rhetoric and especially not rhetoric based on yellow journalism..

I was not going to post the following because it presents for wind energy exactly the same bigotry and one-sidedness that the anti-nuke lobby presents through Rothwell,  but I think it is now appropriate just to demonstrate how logical certain misrepresentation and distortions can appear, when they appear on the internet and nobody debunks it.

Windpower Myths Exploded
http://www.geocities.com/nigbarnes/
 
The windpower industry is fiercely jealous of its raison d'etre, and reacts angrily against criticism, no matter how indirect, on one side belittling the arguments and on the other often discrediting the critical group. 

BWEA (British Wind Energy Association) even produced a web page as a method of undermining one such group and in an attempt to negate its arguments. Had raw nerves been touched? Or was there something else, something deeper, which prompted such an overreaction?

A glance through pro-windpower literature soon demonstrates the same old tired regurgitated arguments which hold no water, the same over-exaggerated figures, the same environmental nonsense and the same refusal to admit the slightest point of view running contrary to their ideals. However, on this site, browbeating and bully-boy tactics have no place. And so let us begin with a list of these tired arguments mentioned earlier, and let us from the start dispel some myths.

Remembering that it seems to be a historical aberration for windpower supporters to misuse and misapply scientific and technical facts.
For evidence to support all the points raised below, see the Text of 'An Ill Wind'.

Turbines are reliable. FALSE. 

Rotor blades weigh up to 1.5 tonnes and can travel at over 180 mph. They can cause massive problems if these blades were to break, and wind developers state that this is only a very remote chance. At Cemmaes, Wales, in 1993, a blade broke and parts of it were flung 400m. 

At Llangwyryfon, Wales, a whole blade became detached and planed for nearly 500 m. An internal investigation took place, but the results were not made public. 
In Spain, blades broke off twice in one month - November 1995. 

Professor Wolfrum, Darmstadt University, on blade failures: "It appears that this technology is by no means safe ... Particularly with the large new models, with rated capacities of 500kW and more, problems arise since the rotor blades are heavier and have to be manufactured manually."
 
He detailed four severe cases in Germany of blade breakage

At Palm Springs, USA, developers were made to site turbines at least half a mile from the highway for safety reasons. 

Three windfarms were closed in the UK for safety reasons in April 2000. 
And there is danger to monuments as well - ancient tombs or similar artifacts adjacent to windfarm sites should also be protected, not only from the sight of the turbines, but also from flying blade fragments and ice.
 
Visit the Altamont area of California, where turbines stand stationery, sometimes bladeless, by the sides of the road. Note also the increased risk of lightning hits.

Turbines are efficient. FALSE. 

Manufacturers continually underrate the efficiency of turbines, which is on average 25-30%. This is linked to the intermittency problem; no wind = no electricity. As an example of turbine efficiency, 9369 produce only 1.7% of Germany's power, and this itself may be an exaggerated figure (qv).

Windfarms do not use much space. FALSE. 

The power plant utilizes significantly more space than any other form of power plant. Per kWh produced, this space required is totally disproportionate. Apart from the turbine siting, space is also wastes with construction of access roads, 'improvements' of existing roads, and the erection of substations, interpretative centers, etc.
 
Windfarms reduce pollution. FALSE. 

The miniscule amount of electricity produced is swallowed by industrial growth. Pollution is produced by traffic and construction in the construction and dismantling phases of windfarm development; also to a large degree in manufacturing industries which produce wind turbine components
.
Electricity from wind energy avoids emissions from coal and other fossil-fuelled electric generating plants. FALSE. 

Because of industrial growth, the electrical output is swallowed and in fact more fossil fuels are burned. Because wind turbines produce only intermittently, other generating plants have to be immediately available - either running at less than full capacity or in 'spinning reserve' - to supply electricity when the wind drops or disappears. The backup plants still produce emissions while in this backstopping mode.*

The electricity produced by windfarms is significant. FALSE. 

A glance at the table summarizing power outputs internationally shows how pathetically small this contribution is. This amount will gradually grind to a halt in the face of growing adverse public opinion, and the dwindling of available sites (it is already difficult to get permits in Germany). The small amounts of electricity produced is illustrated by the fact that it would take 1904 new 750kW wind turbines operating at 28% capacity factor to produce as much electricity as one 500MW gas-fired combined cycle base-load generating plant with an 80% capacity factor.*

The generating capacity of a turbine (eg kW or MW) is important. MISLEADING. 

Such ratings merely show how much electricity could be produced at an instant in time IF the wind is blowing at the right speed - which seldom occurs. A wind turbine produces nothing if windspeed isn't within the right speed range. On average, newer wind turbines produce electricity annually in the range of 25-30% of their 'rated' kW or MW capacity.

Turbines are 'green' and make a significant impact on reducing global warming. FALSE.
 
Turbines have several negative environmental impacts. Because production is so tiny, it is swallowed by industrial growth, so greenhouse gases in fact increase even in well developed nations. Construction, dismantling, and the component manufacturing industry increase greenhouse gases. Windfarms cause industrialization of rural uplands...

yada, yada, yada....

There are many more points on the long and detailed website. Many of the points are indeed misleading, but at the same time probably more factual than the garbage put out by the anti-nuclear lobby. I think this site is no more, nor no less objectionable, than the BS that Rothwell has been quoting from the Sierra club or some other equally ignorant anti-nuclear group. 

At least if you are going to use numbers, use some care when you throw out their absurd calculations, they are just too easy to falsify. 

And try to get a hold on that real cost of windpower per kwh... or is it just too embarrassing to mention.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:51:20 2003
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Subject: Re: The truth about giant towers and turbines
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Jones Beene wrote:

> > Nuclear plants cost $5,500 per kW capacity to build and they
>will probably cost 2 to 5 times the  construction cost to decommission.
>
>This is absolute Sierra Club hogwash.

This information comes from the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, not the 
Sierra Club. It may be hogwash, but it originates with the nuclear 
industry, which is prone to under-reporting costs, not exaggerating them.


>The true actual cost is $2, 430 per kw capacity, 60% less than Rothwell 
>quoted, and the CANDU 6  have a long history of safe and reliable 
>operation . . .

My statistics are for U.S. reactors, not the CANDU series. Also bear in 
mind that the decommissioning costs for CANDU reactor are likely to be a 
large multiple of the original purchase price, whereas it costs only a 
fraction of the purchase price to decommission a conventional fossil fuel 
or wind plant. So, this $2,430 may be more like $10,000 construction and 
deconstruction cost in the end, whereas a gas turbine that costs $800 
initially may cost $900 by the time it reaches the scrap yard.


>The figures for nuclear are not in dispute, they cannot be in dispute, 
>because they are in the public record. The decommissioning point is a red 
>herring, were it not for the activists. No Canadian reactor has ever cost 
>over 30% of its original cost to decommission . . .

This is novel. Where did you get this information? How many have been fully 
decommissioned? (Not just turned off, but actually removed and buried.) How 
many large ones (over 200 MW)? Small U.S. reactors have been cheap to 
decommission.


>A glance through pro-windpower literature soon demonstrates the same old 
>tired regurgitated arguments which hold no water, the same 
>over-exaggerated figures . . .

I suggest you look at actual figures for sale, production, tax subsidies 
and so on. These statistics are published by Federal agencies rather than 
industry sources. They are somewhat less biased.


>Windfarms reduce pollution. FALSE.
>
>The miniscule amount of electricity produced is swallowed by industrial 
>growth. . . .

Worldwide, they presently produce as much as 12 average U.S. nuclear 
reactors. That is actual output -- not nameplate. This is not "minuscule." 
It is 1.8% of the electricity consumed in the U.S. At the rate they are 
growing, in 15 or 20 years they will produce as much power as the entire 
U.S. consumes.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:59:58 2003
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Nuclear plants cost $5,500 per kW capacity to build and they output 85 
> - 90% of nameplate capacity. 


Plant Vogtle cost $8.7e9 / 1.62e9 W =>  $5370 per kW first cost.  Cost 
of generation is less than 2 cents per kWh.

But the point is, noone will build any more fission plants here.  The 
comparison is rendered moot.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:05:26 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Really giant towers and turbines? Oops!
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I wrote:

>A 100 MW turbine in a prime location would produce 40 MW actual. It would 
>take an array of only 23 towers to replace one average U.S. nuclear plant. 
>One average nuclear plant produces roughly 1.5 percent of all U.S. 
>electricity, so it would take 1,533 of these towers to power the entire U.S.

Oops! That's an order of magnitude off. U.S. reactors produce ~15% of U.S. 
power and there are ~100 of them. So that's 0.15% per reactor, and it would 
take 15,330 mega-towers to power the entire U.S.

I doubt it will ever come to that. Before we can build that many, something 
like CF or space-based power will become available. Still, 15,330 towers 
scattered over the continental U.S. would not be much of  a burden. There 
are 7,423 active oil and gas wells in Utah, and as I recall, hundreds of 
thousands in the U.S. The number is somewhere in the Deffeyes book, but I 
cannot find it.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:06:58 2003
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Subject: Re: Really giant towers and turbines?
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Plant Vogtle cost $8.7e9 / 1.62e9 W =>  $5370 per kW first cost.  Cost of 
>generation is less than 2 cents per kWh.

For fuel and present expenses, right? (Salaries, etc.) Or is that the 
estimated cost including capital equipment?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:18:31 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The truth about giant towers and turbines
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> This information comes from the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, not the 
> Sierra Club. It may be hogwash, but it originates with the nuclear 
> industry, which is prone to under-reporting costs, not exaggerating them.

I doubt it.  What is the reference?

The U.S. Atomic Energy Commission was abolished in 1974.

It looks like you are in over your head here...

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:19:15 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: Jack's World  To Tom in Minn.  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: GeorgeMurray1 aol.com, rfraizer@c3energy.com, mike@ucsofa.com,
        edo lilorbits.com, phcap@msn.com, jhart@aapspower.com,
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            SIR Phase conversion can be seen here operational because the 
gravity drive is not ready yet that you talked to the tech about.  WE are 
also possibly planning a trip to  demo phase conversion. In Chicago and then 
in possibly in Wisconsin  to Marathon electric because we are looking at 
using their Gen. for our drivers. 

Then possibly  Themo King in Minn. on 90 Th. Street Right by you.  I saw them 
in May 2002  Also the creator of LiL Orbits donuts If he wants us to stop in 
Minn also by you. Then we have a stop in North dakota.  Then 4 stops in Salt 
Lake i was there in June.  one in Las Vegas and 4 stops in LA  WE may go to 
Uc Davis in Sacramento then SAN FRAN  I was there in June also   after SALT 
Lake then LA then  back to Vegas  That is the tenitive plan 

   Dennis lee wants us to come to NJ but presently that is to far out of the 
way. .He has all ready been here and flew us out for a week so we do not have 
to prove anything to him.   One of the possible customers in LA wants to line 
up a demo for the California Power/Energy Commission California is our prime 
market. In the US     Ron send this out will you 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:23:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:20:43 EST
Subject: Re: Relax
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       they have not seen  anything  as of yet compared to what is coming  

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> For fuel and present expenses, right? (Salaries, etc.) Or is that the 
> estimated cost including capital equipment? 


Total operating cost..  First cost goes into the rate base.  The utility 
is guaranteed a ROI of 12.5% on the rate base plus operating cost, if I 
understand it correctly.  Operating cost might include only non-exempt 
employees.  If I recall correctly, Vogtle has achieved a generation cost 
as low as 1.52 cents per kWh.

Did you know that Georgia Transmission is now a separate company?  (115 
kV and higher)

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:39:29 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: off topic other things
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       I liked Penn when I went through there last Apr. On my to NYC to a 
venture capital situation in Apr.   I became lost on there way back  Because 
i stayed with the chairman of a Hedge fund in Stamford Conn.  and went 
through white plains but could not catch the PR director for IBM that i met 
in Mar at the SAE World Conference At COBO HALL in Detroit.   and ended up 
near Philly and took the Penn turnpike through the Le heigh ?  tunnel 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 16:57:33 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:49:57 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Industry facts
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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If you want the real industry slant on operating and decommissioning =
costs, go to the  Uranium Information Centre (Aussie)
http://www.uic.com.au/

"Decommissioning costs are estimated at 9-15% of the initial capital =
cost of a nuclear power plant. But when discounted, they contribute only =
a few percent to the investment cost and even less to the generation =
cost. In the USA they account for 0.1-0.2 cent/kWh, which is no more =
than 5% of the cost of the electricity produced."

 "Cost of the most recently constructed reactors US$ 1400 per kilowatt"

This is clearly a lot lower than the costs that I was guesstimating, but =
my figures were based on 2003 and I have no idea when theirs were =
calculated...


Jones

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>If you want the real industry slant on operating and =
decommissioning costs,=20
go to the&nbsp; Uranium Information Centre (Aussie)</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.uic.com.au/">http://www.uic.com.au/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Decommissioning costs are estimated at 9-15% of the initial =
capital cost=20
of a nuclear power plant. But when discounted, they contribute only a =
few=20
percent to the investment cost and even less to the generation cost. In =
the USA=20
they account for 0.1-0.2 cent/kWh, which is no more than 5% of the cost =
of the=20
electricity produced."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;"Cost of the most recently constructed reactors US$ 1400 per=20
kilowatt"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is clearly a lot lower than the costs that I was =
guesstimating, but my=20
figures were based on 2003 and I have no idea when theirs were=20
calculated...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:01:24 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:59:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Kyle Mcallister <kyle_mcallister yahoo.com>
Subject: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hello,

Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
magnetic potentials are? Or are they not even assumed
to propagate? Math is welcome as far as a response is
concerned, but words are appreciated too.

Thanks,
--Kyle

__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:17:12 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:14:33 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Kyle Mcallister's message of Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:59:34 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Hello,
>
>Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
>what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
>magnetic potentials are? Or are they not even assumed
>to propagate? Math is welcome as far as a response is
>concerned, but words are appreciated too.
[snip]
Usually, one isn't considered to propagate without the other, and the propagation of a combined EM field goes at the speed of light by definition (since light is a propagating EM field). In air this is fractionally less than in a perfect vacuum (see refractive index).
However there has in the past been considerable speculation on this list as to whether or not a pure electric field propagates at the same speed, or possibly at a much higher speed (infinite?). If so, then the speed of propagation of a pure magnetic field would likely also differ from the speed of light.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:21:52 2003
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> Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
> what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
> magnetic potentials are?

The speed of propagation of the potentials is c.

kooistra



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:26:35 2003
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Subject: Re: The truth about giant towers and turbines
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Jones,

Just wanted to let you know you're not alone--I agree with you.   But you
know more about this than I do and are more up to date, so I'm just sitting
back and letting you carry the water.

I know that at least 20 years ago already the CANDU system was being touted
as one of the few "intelligent" ways of doing nuclear power.

And personally, I think wind farms are ugly.  Given my Hollander background,
I have nothing against windmills, but acres of the things is an eyesore.

kooistra



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:34:16 2003
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Jed said:

> I doubt it will ever come to that. Before we can build that many,
something
> like CF or space-based power will become available.

I'm a lot less optimistic about either of these than are you.  CF as  an
effect I accept--CF as a potent power source we can engineer into a
reliable, robust power source?  We really don't know. I hope so, though.  As
for spaced based power--I used to be gung-ho on that, but the expense will
be huge, and there will continue to be those who think beaming the power
back down to Earth is hazardous.

kooistra


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From: Kyle Mcallister <kyle_mcallister yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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> However there has in the past been considerable
> speculation on this list as to whether or not a pure
> electric field propagates at the same speed, or
> possibly at a much higher speed (infinite?). If so,
> then the speed of propagation of a pure magnetic
> field would likely also differ from the speed of
> light.

What is the origin of this speculation? About the pure
electric field propagating faster than light?

--Kyle

__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:40:11 2003
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      A little GM and Ford history for you. Henry had the right idea in 1908 
the Model T cost $850. In the early 20"s $250.  He did not invent the 
assembly line some of his workers had worked in the South for the textile 
industry where they were in use. They came here for the far higher wages. He 
created the first 5 dollar day in 1914. He wanted to transport the masses not 
just the rich. Who hated him. At one time he controlled 90% of the auto 
market. And 75% of the auto's on the planet were Ford's. 

The Dodge brothers who supplied his wheels almost took the CO. from him in a 
court case. They had paid off the judge but he was killed in a car accident 
on the way to court. And the judge that was appointed to rule on the case 
ruled in Henry'd favor and the Dodge brothers stood up in court and objected. 
That they had paid off the previous judge. That taught him one hell of a 
lesson 

. With in  10 years Henry had created the first dynasty ever.  He owned 
everything concerning the building of his auto's from owning  the ground in 
Asia that the rubber trees grew on to the car he sold you, until you made the 
last payment.     The Rockafellors gave Henry Ford money interest free to 
make internal combustion the dominate over electric or steam Because they 
knew what Nicola Tesla was capable of possibly creating. So that is a strong 
probability why    

Because he had been funded by JP Morgan and Westinghouse. And he had changed 
the world dramatically with the perfecting of AC current. There had to be a 
reason they did that because internal combustion would have won out anyway.

 Because it was 1931 before Tesla accomplished what he did. When he was able 
to power a car with one of his situations which was we think was primarily  a 
neutrino  gathering device. From his 1899 notes As Steven greer is showing 
now that generates a few hundred watts. But the problem is that is radiant 
energy and that means it will be radioactive in about 2500 years. I'm not 
from the future as some probably think I just vast have  knowledge  

The. Durant hotel here in Flint still sits empty in the down town area he 
created GM here in 1908. WHO knows why but there are probably many body's 
buried in the basement. I know a fair amount of concrete was pour into it. 
There is a nature  reserve here near the city limits  that GM had party's on 
back in the 20's and 30''s that probably has many body's buried on the 
property.

 Because there is knowledge about people going to those party's and never 
returning. Very few if any people are still living have the knowledge you 
were just given.  You do not find this knowledge in text books. There was a 
Meteor that came through here in the 1500s that broke into pieces and formed 
many lakes around here plus in Minnesota the land of 10,000 lakes.  The 
Indians told the early settlers because they as now pass there history down 
orally  and the settlers in the 1820s  wrote it in there journals.        

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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:35:48 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The truth about giant towers and turbines
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Recently Jed Rothwell claimed over and over again that cost of new nuclear power plants is $5500 per kilowatt and that his information "comes from the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, not the Sierra Club. It may be hogwash, but it originates with the nuclear industry, which is prone to under-reporting costs, not exaggerating them"

Because the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission was abolished in 1974, and he might be referring to plants built 30 years ago with antiquated technology, I asked for his reference. No response yet.

Then I presented an actual industry estimate (Australian) of $1,400, which is about one-fourth of Rothwell's estimate. 

Now, I am informed by another vortexian than the anti-nuclear activist who best ought to know the real cost figure in the USA,  Rep. Edward Markey (D-Mass.) who was a member of the Energy and Commerce Committee at the time, was quoted about a year ago "nuclear power is more expensive than natural gas; it costs about $1,700 per kilowatt of power generated to build a nuclear plant."

My question is this: If our own Energy and Commerce Committee, through its most ardent anti-nuke activist, thinks that nuclear plants costs about $1,700 per kilowatt, then why does Rothwell persist in this ridiculous disinformation campaign?

Its about integrity, Jed. One can be a good advocate for wind energy (or cold fusion) without spreading disinformation, or at best wildly outdated information, about other sources. 

Hell, I'm on the verge of becoming a windpower advocate myself...if those involved in the field at NREL and elsewhere, would just go straight with the actual figures, stop the hemming and hawing, and give us real figures, with documantation, that weren't that much higher for wind...

Geoffrey Rothwell, formerly of Stanford University's Center for Economic Policy Research (and probably no relative to Jed ?), predicted precisely the last energy crisis in California and probably the next. Anyone interested should read the study
http://www.earthscape.org/r1/gom01/

Geoffrey Rothwell believed a supply shortage was probable because the legislature had traded "marginally lower prices" for natural gas for supply instability, and predicted, "the cost of blackouts could overwhelm any gains we might accrue from lower electricity prices."  Rothwell believed that in a competitive market, independent generators would seek out the cheapest fuel source for producing electricity - natural gas. This would leave electricity prices vulnerable to fluctuations in natural gas prices or supply problems. At the same time, Rothwell believed that the higher cost of nuclear power plants and environmentalism would cause companies to close those plants prematurely and not order new ones, negatively impacting the community, stockholders, and removing a "stabilizing influence on electricity supply."

We need nuclear, that's a fact. We need windpower too, but how much we need it depends on how much it costs...

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:57:32 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:13:49 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMGEJMDHAA.knagel gis.net>
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Depends on the gauge you choose.

The Coulomb gauge assumes infinite propagation velocity,
the Lorentz gauge assumes propagation at speed C. Are
other gauges possible? You bet. Which is right? Depends
on the situation. Much has been made about the Coulomb gauge
in conjunction with A field type experiments, work was
done for Honeywell generating a few patents which I
don't have the numbers for handy. But you know the ones.
As many here will point out, it's pretty hard to imagine
the potentials propagating without the associated
fields and propagation delay. Did you have something
specific in mind?

K.


1 .45 automatic.
2 boxes of ammunition.
4 days' concentrated emergency rations.
1 drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills,
sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills.
1 miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible.
100 dollars in rubles.
100 dollars in gold.
9 packs of chewing gum.
1 issue of prophylactics.
3 lipsticks.
3 pairs of nylon stockings. --2

"A fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff."
	-Slim Pickins, Dr. Strangelove-

-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:00 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Speed of electric/magnetic potential


Hello,

Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
magnetic potentials are? Or are they not even assumed
to propagate? Math is welcome as far as a response is
concerned, but words are appreciated too.

Thanks,
--Kyle

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 19:04:33 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:02:03 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <us735vgg1isc3sl2s3q817glng11cfl17t 4ax.com>
References: <he535vovj0uuboer2sd60200abgvj7e34e 4ax.com> <20030218023728.44748.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com>
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In reply to  Kyle Mcallister's message of Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:37:28 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>
>> However there has in the past been considerable
>> speculation on this list as to whether or not a pure
>> electric field propagates at the same speed, or
>> possibly at a much higher speed (infinite?). If so,
>> then the speed of propagation of a pure magnetic
>> field would likely also differ from the speed of
>> light.
>
>What is the origin of this speculation? About the pure
>electric field propagating faster than light?

I seem to remember someone (Horace?) pointing out that if it didn't then the electron should be unstable relative to the nucleus, along the same lines as Tom Van Flandern's argument about the speed of gravity, and the Earth being unstable in it's orbit about the sun (See http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp). However you should be able to find something in the archives if you search. (See http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ ).


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 19:11:30 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: The truth about giant towers and turbines
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:27:21 -0500
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Hi,

kooistra writes:
>And personally, I think wind farms are ugly.  Given my Hollander
background,
>I have nothing against windmills, but acres of the things is an eyesore.

You know, I'm always surprised how many people LIKE they way these
things look. I agree that they're about as ugly as an oil well,
but most folks I know seem to be ok with them. These would include
artists as well as gear-heads. Who am I to say otherwise???

That stuff about blade failure sounds pretty alarmist. No doubt
it's a likely possibility, but it sounds like a more manageable problem
than the core contents of a reactor coming down on you.

Horace has the right idea here, look for stuff related to
insurance estimates for the competing technologies. Here's
a nice link for individual mills and liability insurance issues.

http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/ms_insur2.html


Liability insurance should be another concern for the homeowner. Liability
coverage needs to address two areas. The first is liability coverage for
property damage. While claims in this area are extremely rare, the
possibilities include such things as a blade flying off or a tower falling
down, thereby causing damage to someone else’s property. The second concern
centers around personal injury or death. Again, this could happen if a blade
flew off the wind system or if the tower fell down. However, it could also
happen if someone fell from the tower, or someone was electrocuted while
working on or nearby the system.

Like insurance to the wind system itself, liability coverage is relatively
inexpensive if associated with a homeowner’s policy. In many localities, the
basic homeowner’s liability coverage is for $100,000. Increasing this to
$300,000 coverage is an additional $6 to $10 in the Midwest, and up to $20
to $25 more for $500,000 of coverage. It is advisable to ask about an
umbrella policy for liability coverage of $1,000,000 or more, because the
rates are cheaper still.


K.







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 19:20:50 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Our Edu system is like the plague 
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      When we were children we investigated everything then we went to school 

and they said you have to do it the way we tell you.   Not how little jonnie 
thought it should be done or may be something worth trying.  No, that way was 

not allowed because he may learn something God forbid that happens.

Because they may not be able to control him then. Which it is not rocket 
science to see that is the game? So when Johnny grows up he does not 
investigate he just reaches conclusions that only what he knows is correct.  
So he does not have to invesigate.  . And if ever one else does not agree 
with him they are incorrect.  It appears that is the dominate thinking out 
here on vortex How did that come to be the dominate situation?    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 20:14:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:11:34 EST
Subject: From the 24 th century 
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            Gravity is caused when stars emit tacyons. Which are a source of 
power.  Natural magnetic fields are caused by neutrinos that are also a power 
souce emitted by stars. A planet has to have iron deposits that are necessary 
for neutrinos to inter act with for that to occur. 

Your body converts neutrinos into electricity that in turn provides power for 
 the chemical reactions to happen. The core of the planet uses neutrinos as 
its power source and is how it remains molten.  OU is a giant misnomer 
because power has to come from somewhere then it is converted. That is just 
plain common sense.  

There are trillions of them passing through your body right now. You may not 
agree but I'm sorry it makes sense. But in the box main stream science does 
not have one lick of common sense.  Because they have been pumped full of 
theory that are laws which to them means absolute. Without that absolute they 
have nothing. 

Those long before us understood far more than we do. Because they 
investigated and  were not ruled by restrictive theory laws.  Wake up people 
because you have a great deal to learn. So positive changes can occur and you 
only have a very short period of time to accomplish that process. 

Because if you do not you will cause those who follow you to lose the 
civilization. by 2150. You ask how can that happen because by that time there 
will be close to 20 billion of us. That writing is on the wall for all to see 
but few will look. We are at a cross roads in history we face two parallels 
as a civilization one is purgatory the other is utopia.  Which one do you 
chose?          

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 20:57:18 2003
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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] OT: Influence over the auto companies?
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In a message dated 2/17/03 6:28:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
murdoch herecomesmongo.com writes:
         REPLY   He portrays what is happening behind the curtains in the 
real world.  He has basically figured it out and stated it far better than I 
could have The show on stage is just that a show. 

Because your EDU. Did not teach you to investigate they programed that 
ability out of you. That you had when you were a child for a reason it is 
called control and is why many of you believe the show. This gentlemen could 
not be programed. I know they tried but he fought them at ever step until 
they gave up attempting to. Am I correct?

> In the evworld.com group we've had a few posts where we've listed quite a 
> few of
> the hypotheses as to why there seems to be some inexplicable holdup in 
> opening
> up the drivetrain business to more competitive ingenious ideas.  There's 
> another
> issue that's been on my mind that I'm not sure about, so I thought I'd put 
> it
> out there for consideration.
> 
> As has been much discussed recently, Ford and GM both seem to have 
> (depending on
> whom you ask) huge burdensome debt.  As best I can tell all the Detroit 
> Makers
> have carried huge debt for decades or more, and perhaps this goes for all 
> major
> industry participants, worldwide.  I wonder if this debt can be used by the 
> oil
> companies to influence the auto makers' decision making?
> 
> A few months ago I read an article (Wall Street Journal?) which profiled 
> one of
> the Saudis.  It was either the King or the Crown Prince, I don't recall.  
> He had
> a huge stake in Citicorp, something I had previously known but had 
> forgotten
> about.  Now I am wondering about this.  Over the years when we've all
> brainstormed about the influence of the oil companies and the banks over 
> the
> auto companies, it has come off to me as arguably over-the-top in terms of
> conspiracy-theorizing that I don't want to be part of.  
> 
> But I am wondering if this might be worth pursuing a little bit.  What role 
> do
> the oil companies (or individuals in the oil industry, if they are wealthy
> enough, such as the Saudi Family or the King of Bahrein) play in ownership 
> of
> Auto maker stock or auto maker debt?  What about in the ownership of banks 
> which
> in turn own auto company debt?  Can this, or has this, been used to 
> influence
> auto maker decision making about Battery Electric Vehicles?  
> 
> Sometimes the conspiracy-theorizing has alluded to the fact that some of 
> the
> same people seem to be on the boards of oil companies that are on the 
> boards of
> auto companies, but I am wondering if there is a path of stock or debt 
> ownership
> here that could also be traced.  Has anyone ever seen any research into 
> this?  
> 
> One oversimplification I've made, for purposes of quick summarizing: the 
> idea of
> an "oil" or "bank" or "auto" maker.  I think in any industry there are 
> always
> many companies that one has only half heard-of that are truly important and
> outsiders have a tough time immediately appreciating their role. 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> alternativefuelvehicles-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/17/0=
3 6:28:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, murdoch herecomesmongo.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; He portra=
ys what is happening behind the curtains in the real world.&nbsp; He has bas=
ically figured it out and stated it far better than I could have The show on=
 stage is just that a show. <BR>
<BR>
Because your EDU. Did not teach you to investigate they programed that abili=
ty out of you. That you had when you were a child for a reason it is called=20=
control and is why many of you believe the show. This gentlemen could not be=
 programed. I know they tried but he fought them at ever step until they gav=
e up attempting to. Am I correct?<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In the evworld.com group we've=20=
had a few posts where we've listed quite a few of<BR>
the hypotheses as to why there seems to be some inexplicable holdup in openi=
ng<BR>
up the drivetrain business to more competitive ingenious ideas.&nbsp; There'=
s another<BR>
issue that's been on my mind that I'm not sure about, so I thought I'd put i=
t<BR>
out there for consideration.<BR>
<BR>
As has been much discussed recently, Ford and GM both seem to have (dependin=
g on<BR>
whom you ask) huge burdensome debt.&nbsp; As best I can tell all the Detroit=
 Makers<BR>
have carried huge debt for decades or more, and perhaps this goes for all ma=
jor<BR>
industry participants, worldwide.&nbsp; I wonder if this debt can be used by=
 the oil<BR>
companies to influence the auto makers' decision making?<BR>
<BR>
A few months ago I read an article (Wall Street Journal?) which profiled one=
 of<BR>
the Saudis.&nbsp; It was either the King or the Crown Prince, I don't recall=
.&nbsp; He had<BR>
a huge stake in Citicorp, something I had previously known but had forgotten=
<BR>
about.&nbsp; Now I am wondering about this.&nbsp; Over the years when we've=20=
all<BR>
brainstormed about the influence of the oil companies and the banks over the=
<BR>
auto companies, it has come off to me as arguably over-the-top in terms of<B=
R>
conspiracy-theorizing that I don't want to be part of.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But I am wondering if this might be worth pursuing a little bit.&nbsp; What=20=
role do<BR>
the oil companies (or individuals in the oil industry, if they are wealthy<B=
R>
enough, such as the Saudi Family or the King of Bahrein) play in ownership o=
f<BR>
Auto maker stock or auto maker debt?&nbsp; What about in the ownership of ba=
nks which<BR>
in turn own auto company debt?&nbsp; Can this, or has this, been used to inf=
luence<BR>
auto maker decision making about Battery Electric Vehicles?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Sometimes the conspiracy-theorizing has alluded to the fact that some of the=
<BR>
same people seem to be on the boards of oil companies that are on the boards=
 of<BR>
auto companies, but I am wondering if there is a path of stock or debt owner=
ship<BR>
here that could also be traced.&nbsp; Has anyone ever seen any research into=
 this?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
One oversimplification I've made, for purposes of quick summarizing: the ide=
a of<BR>
an "oil" or "bank" or "auto" maker.&nbsp; I think in any industry there are=20=
always<BR>
many companies that one has only half heard-of that are truly important and<=
BR>
outsiders have a tough time immediately appreciating their role. <BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
alternativefuelvehicles-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_57.18404c91.2b8316a5_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 20:58:45 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:56:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and tornados.
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--- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
> At 10:14 AM 2/17/3, Charles Ford wrote:
> > A
> >Large patch of the central plains covered by wind machines is asking
> >for a deadly disaster of monumental proportion. e.g. We have tornados
> >and softball sized hail here.

Horace: 
I have been over this thing an easy thousand times.  It seems to be a
hard concept for folks to grasp.

> If wind machines represented a major problem then so would telephone
> poles,

Actually telephone poles are a problem.  Although a phone pole is only 30
or 40 feet long and quite round so they fly about as good as a baseball
bat and are able to do a little more damage.    

> tranmission towers, 

Believe it or not Transmission Towers do not have enough wind facing
cross section to be a problem.  Fact is even if a tornado shreads one it
tends to hold together and prety much lay down flat or within a couple
hundred feed of its tiedown.

> mobile homes,

Not built for tornados at all and they simply fly apart into small and
relitavely harmless pieces.  

> pickup trucks, 

Fortunatly this is not so frequent a problem.  But yes in the 2000
Tarrant County event an arlington home that was not in the path of the
storm was destroyed by...  a falling pickup.  (fortunatly both where
empty)

> cities, etc.  

Yes unfortunatly the more junk you place in the path of a storm the more
likely you are to get hit by junk.   Make sense?

> Windmill blades should not represent much more aerodynmic capabilities
> than an ordinary beam.

And why does everybody come up with this one.  Why do you think they are
shaped the way they are.  You know it woudl be less expensave and a lot
safer to use phonepoles as blades.  becasue they have the same arodynamic
properties.

Actually the blades have aerodynamic properties and if aloud to freefall
would behave much like a maple seed.  A REALY BIG METAL maple seed.  And
unlike the comparatave phone pole they are not 30 to 40 feet long they
are 300 to 400 feet long and are made of much harder materials.    
 
> All our guesswork about this is moot, however.  The real risk numbers
> will be derived by actuaries, and will (or currently are) represented 
> in the cost of insurance for windmills.

Yah...  and they know how to set rates for homeowners insurance too. ??? 
 These idiots just use the statistics and they don't bother with PPAs. 
Thats why they get hurt every time a strong storm rolls through a suberb.
 They naver take into account colateral damage.

Now back to the problem with wind farms.

When you put a bunch of them in one spot you concentrate the potential
damage. That is why farmer john puts his grain elevators in several
different locations.  Usually in a north south running line.  That way
the storm only takes out one of them.  If you cluster them you are simply
asking for it.  Debris from damaged windmills will cause colateral damage
and more debris.  Its a chain reaction. 

Put up the windmills.  just don't cluster them.  Besides they will be
more efficent if you space them out.  make a large number of individual
sites.  Thus avoiding the possibility of a giant edward sisorhands
nightmere falling onto a nearby municipality.

I supose the only way to handle this is to legislate construction codes. 
  

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 17 21:18:59 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:16:15 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] OT: Influence over the auto companies?
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         He only missed one point because I have knowledge of advanced clean 
propulsion technologies correct Carl speck Delphi's chief scientist?  Carl 
cannot speak because his hands are tied by GM legal    And that is battery 
driven autos are not feasible for a replacement for internal combustion. 

 GM's new electric one is cluster you know what joke that Dan probably worked 
on.  Current range is a prime deterrent and the toxicity of battery's is more 
damaging than internal combustion. Because they would be an environmental 
nightmare a 1000 fold what they are now    GM has a battery they have had for 
over 20 years I think they only have one. And is the most toxic thing there 
is. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 05:53:41 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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At 9:20 PM 2/17/3, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote:
>> Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
>> what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
>> magnetic potentials are?
>
>The speed of propagation of the potentials is c.
>
>kooistra


This depends on the the assumed meaning of the term "potential", and on the
nature of the conductor through which the potential travels, if there be
such a conductor, and whether the signal propagated is AC or a single step
change in DC potential.  Note that potential from a single charge is
distributed about the universe in a 1/r^2 manner.  However, a single
one-way displacement of a charge in one end of a conductor, a wire, can
result in potential changes at the other end of the conductor far in excess
of a 1/r^2 nature. This is due to the fact that lots of charges are
permanently displaced in the wire a small distance, so there are lots of
very small r's involved, not one big r.

The following was one of my posts in 1996 on this.


                           THE MEANING OF POTENTIAL

                          Horace Heffner     4/23/96


It is the intent here to portray a classical view of the nature of
electrical potential and the propagation of potential.  It is an attempt to
think in simple terms but in terms of first principle physics about the
true nature of electrical conduction and potential.

For simplicity quantum mechanical considerations must be dismissed.  A
quantum of charge, regardless of the form of it's quantum wave function,
regardless of the psi^2 distribution of the wave function, has a mean
location on a macro level, and on an atomic level.  For example, it is the
separation of mean location of the nucleus and the electron cloud that
provides a dipole moment in an insulator in an electrostatic field for
example.  The charge of a particle is inextricably linked to the mass of a
particle, which also has the same mean location.  The mean location of mass
can not move without the mean location of charge moving, and vice versa.
This is so, regardless of the QM interpretation to which you subscribe.
The main difference in a classical view and a QM view of conduction is in
the quantized response of the lattice to charge motion, or phonons, and the
nature of the conduction pathway, i.e. the conduction band.  I do not
believe these differences are important to this discussion, but perhaps
they are, or there are other important differences.   However, from here on
the discussion is assumed to be at a classical level.

What is the relation of net charge Q and potential V?  You can not have one
without the other.  Charge is simply a count of the number of units of +
charged particles minus the number of - charged particles times a
utilitarian constant e.  In other words, Q is a sum of unbalanced charges.
We do not need to deal with (sufficiently locally) balanced charges in
determining Q.

How do we know which charges to count to determine a Q?  The charges to
count are typically designated by specifying the volume in which they are
located.  We speak of a charge on a capacitor plate, or on the spherical
terminal of a van de Graff generator.  Like charges repel, so in a
conductor  the unbalanced charges tend to repel each other out to the
surface of the conductor.  When talking about a static charge in a
conductor, we are for the most part talking about a surface with charge
distributed upon it.  It is this association of charge to a quantity of
volume or surface that results in the inextricable link between charge and
potential.

Since charge is a net value, we are always dealing with a repulsive force
in determining the potential of a statically charged conductor.  How is the
potential derived and what does it mean in a realistic sense.  Two
particles of unlike charge require a force to bring them together.  Work is
done in bringing the unlike charges from a theoretically infinite distance
to some specific distance.  Work is expended bringing unlike charges into
proximity, thus energy is stored when unbalanced charge is in proximity.
The work done compressing the charges together is a potential energy
available at some later time to do work.

If there is any net repulsive force on an individual particle free to move
it will accelerate in the direction opposite the force.  If it is not free
to move in all directions, it will move in the direction, of all the
possible directions it is free to move, in which the component vector of
the force is largest.   For this reason, in a conductor with static charge
Q>0, every individual net charge has on it a net force in a direction in
which the charge is not free to move, i.e. perpendicular to some barrier,
such as the edge of the conductor.   It is the magnitude of this unbalanced
"force at a point" which is the potential of the point.

Charges in a conductor or otherwise free to move repel each other and will
expend some of their potential energy doing so, in gaining the lowest
potential energy possible.   The charges are like a bunch of masses
connected by repelling springs.  Raising a static voltage in a conductor
requires   "compression" of additional charges into the conductor to
increase the net unbalanced force on each charge in the conductor and to
rearrange the charges in the conductor to a new lowest potential energy
state.   For example, a van de Graff generator must carry unbalanced
charges on a belt up into the terminal sphere by exerting work on the
charges over the distance from the brushes to the edge of the sphere.
Once taken off the belt the charges mutually repel and rearrange throughout
the surface of the sphere. The amount of work to bring in an incremental
charge depends on the capacity of the sphere.  The larger the sphere, the
more distributed the charges, the less net unbalanced force on each charge,
the less the potential on the surface of the sphere for a given Q.  The
less the potential, the less the force on the additional particles coming
up the belt, the less work to add charge.  The capacity of a sphere is very
small.  The capacitance of a sphere of diameter d in meters is given by C =
d x 5.56x10^-11 Farads.  A cylinder or wire has even less capacitance per
unit of area.  It is for this reason the energy to bring  a wire not in a
circuit up to a potential is ignored in EE applications, because it is
nearly zero.  However, it is most important to note that it is not zero!  I
think a failure to understand this principle leads to all kinds of
ridiculous over unity ideas regarding potential and current.  More
importantly, it erroneously leads to a kind of amorphous ethereal concept
of potential as a kind of lightspeed electrostatic field projected in space
from one end of a conductor to the other.  This is maybe OK as long as the
charge distribution remains static.

So how does a local change in potential at one end of a conductor travel
from that end of the conductor to the other?  Not at light's speed in a
vacuum!  The reason for this is that  charges must move in the conductor
for potential to propagate.  If charges move, and their associated mass is
not zero, they must be accelerated.  They can not instantly jump to
lightspeed.  The  propagation rate of potential must be less than
lightspeed in a conductor.   An electromagnetic field can propagate through
a coaxial cable or wave guide at the speed of light,  but there is no
permanent charge displacement involved with such a wave.  A permanent
change in potential requires permanent charge displacement.  The rate of
propagation of such a displacement propagated by a specific species of
particle, such as the electron, is proportional to the acceleration rate of
the charge which, for a given change in force balance, is inversely
proportional to the mass associated with the charge.  The propagation is
dependent on a local charge moving and changing (dV/dT) the force balance
on neighbors which then accelerate (dI/dT) to move and change the charge
balance on more distant neighbors, etc.

So what about steady state conduction?  It seems logical, especially since
charge is quantized, to look at steady state conduction as the repetitive
constant rate of removal of charge at one end of a conductor and steady
state replacement to maintain a specific potential at the other (or vice
versa).  In this way it is possible to break a conductor into segments and
treat the segments in a manner consistent with the whole, or vice versa.  A
removal of a charge at one end of a segment results in a change in
potential being propagated from one end of the segment to the other, which
eventually results in charge demand at the other end.  Since lots of these
events  happen simultaneously, i.e. a conductor can be divided into many
segments in both series and parallel, there is a continuous and massively
parallel steady state current flow through the conductor.

It is interesting that according to this concept that since moving charge
has mass, it must have momentum.  Charge acceleration can cause the
potential to overshoot the balanced potential, then fly back, and create a
rippling effect as potential equalizes.  It seems logical that, even in the
case of a steady current, that a specific lattice would resonate at a
particular frequency when charge is flowing in it, just like water flowing
in a pipe makes white noise with a characteristic frequency dominant.

By these concepts it is also possible for the direction of charge motion
and the direction of potential to be momentarily completely opposite due to
the charge momentum.   This is a condition that has been referred to as
negative power (-v*i).  I don't see where it is any more negative than a
pendulum on the upswing, but maybe it could fool a watt meter.

It is novel to think of current as a fluid with mass.  An automobile has
about a pound of electrons in it.

A coulomb has 6.24x10^18 electrons each weighing 9.11x10^-31 kg, or
5.69x10-12 kg/C.  So a kilogram is about 1.76x10^11 coulombs., or about
5573 amp-years.  So conducting the electrons in an automobile would take
about 2500 years at 1 amp.  A pound of protons at an amp would take about
16 months, but the electrons in the car, if they could be separated out,
would still take 2500 years at an amp.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 06:00:36 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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At 2:02 PM 2/18/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>What is the origin of this speculation? About the pure
>>electric field propagating faster than light?
>
>I seem to remember someone (Horace?) pointing out that if it didn't then
>the electron should be unstable relative to the nucleus, along the same
>lines as Tom Van Flandern's argument


I may have pointed this out as an issue to be addressed, but I don't recall
taking any side on the issue.


>about the speed of gravity, and the Earth being unstable in it's orbit
>about the sun (See
>http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp). However you
>should be able to find something in the archives if you search. (See
>http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ ).

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 06:21:44 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and
 tornados.
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At 8:56 PM 2/17/3, Charles Ford wrote:

>
>> Windmill blades should not represent much more aerodynmic capabilities
>> than an ordinary beam.
>
>And why does everybody come up with this one.  Why do you think they are
>shaped the way they are.  You know it woudl be less expensave and a lot
>safer to use phonepoles as blades.  becasue they have the same arodynamic
>properties.


The aerodynamic properties are only significant when the orientation of the
blade is maintained with respect to the wind.  Once a blade breaks free
this doe not happen.


>
>Actually the blades have aerodynamic properties and if aloud to freefall
>would behave much like a maple seed.


Where did you get this baloney?  Self gyration of the maple seed requires a
high aspect ratio and precise mass balance.  Gyration of low aspect blades
is likely to be about the long axis, thus having the effect of slowing its
descent speed.



>A REALY BIG METAL maple seed.  And
>unlike the comparatave phone pole they are not 30 to 40 feet long they
>are 300 to 400 feet long and are made of much harder materials.


Blades are made to be as light as possible - carbon composite blades, far
less dense than wood, may become the standard.


>
>> All our guesswork about this is moot, however.  The real risk numbers
>> will be derived by actuaries, and will (or currently are) represented
>> in the cost of insurance for windmills.
>
>Yah...  and they know how to set rates for homeowners insurance too. ???
> These idiots just use the statistics and they don't bother with PPAs.
>Thats why they get hurt every time a strong storm rolls through a suberb.
> They naver take into account colateral damage.
>
>Now back to the problem with wind farms.
>
>When you put a bunch of them in one spot you concentrate the potential
>damage.


Yes, but the potetntial damage is then only to the wind farm, and will end
up reflected in the wind farm insurance.


>That is why farmer john puts his grain elevators in several
>different locations.  Usually in a north south running line.  That way
>the storm only takes out one of them.  If you cluster them you are simply
>asking for it.  Debris from damaged windmills will cause colateral damage
>and more debris.  Its a chain reaction.
>
>Put up the windmills.  just don't cluster them.  Besides they will be
>more efficent if you space them out.  make a large number of individual
>sites.  Thus avoiding the possibility of a giant edward sisorhands
>nightmere falling onto a nearby municipality.


Who is propposing wind farms that close to communities???  The best
locations appear to me to be offshore and on mountain tops.


>
>I supose the only way to handle this is to legislate construction codes.
>


Yep.  Same with cars.  They kill a lot more people.   Better keep them out
of cities too.  Clustering them is what makes them a problem.  8^)

I think the problems can be overcome with proper engineering and with
proper risk management.  This will happen automatically with time.  There
are other issues that are far more worthy of alarmist attention, like the
vulnerability of nuclear power plants to terrorist attacks.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 06:21:54 2003
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Recently Jed Rothwell claimed over and over again that cost of new nuclear power plants is $5500 per kilowatt and that his information "comes from the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, not the Sierra Club. It may be hogwash, but it originates with the nuclear industry, which is prone to under-reporting costs, not exaggerating them"
>

Yeah, you can't trust any government agencies. ;-)

One of the newest reactors is under construction in Taiwan:

http://www.power-technology.com/projects/lungmen/

which has a projected cost of US$6.5e9 and a capacity of 2.7e9 Watts => 
$2,407 / kW.  Build that one here and I'd bet it would exceed Jed's figure.

Another under construction in South Korea is projected at $2,000 / kW:

http://www.power-technology.com/projects/yonggwang/specs.html

Maine Yankee decommissioning cost is projected to be $550 / kW; 
although, I'm not sure this is a scalable figure:

http://www.power-technology.com/projects/maine/index.html

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 06:27:05 2003
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Subject: Re: The truth about giant towers and turbines
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Recently Jed Rothwell claimed over and over again that cost of new nuclear 
>power plants is $5500 per kilowatt and that his information "comes from 
>the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, not the Sierra Club. It may be hogwash, 
>but it originates with the nuclear industry, which is prone to 
>under-reporting costs, not exaggerating them"
>
>Because the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission was abolished in 1974, and he 
>might be referring to plants built 30 years ago with antiquated technology 
>. . .

I meant the successor agency, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. See:

http://www.nrc.gov/

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 06:34:21 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:31:42 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: CF or space-based power
In-Reply-To: <003001c2d6f5$dc553b20$571c1c43 metrogr.org>
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:

> > I doubt it will ever come to that. Before we can build that many,
>something
> > like CF or space-based power will become available.
>
>I'm a lot less optimistic about either of these than are you.  CF as  an
>effect I accept--CF as a potent power source we can engineer into a
>reliable, robust power source?  We really don't know.

It seems likely to me, and to Mizuno and Fleischmann. They feel that the 
technical problems are not as daunting as they seen.


>I hope so, though.  As for spaced based power--I used to be gung-ho on 
>that, but the expense will be huge . . .

It would be reduced by a huge factor by a space elevator. I thought that 
space elevators were centuries away, but I was surprised to learn that 
recent advances in materials may make them possible even today. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,57536,00.html


>, and there will continue to be those who think beaming the power
>back down to Earth is hazardous.

Done properly, it should be no more hazardous than intense sunlight.

- Jed


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Keith Nagel wrote:

>kooistra writes:
> >And personally, I think wind farms are ugly.  Given my Hollander
>background,
> >I have nothing against windmills, but acres of the things is an eyesore.
>
>You know, I'm always surprised how many people LIKE they way these
>things look. I agree that they're about as ugly as an oil well,
>but most folks I know seem to be ok with them. . . .

A British politician called them "toilet brushes in the sky." I think they 
are an eyesore. But they are less ugly than alternatives such as: a million 
acres of forest killed by acid rain, thousands of people killed by 
pollution, another war in the Middle East triggered mainly by oil, or 
another TMI or Connecticut Yankee. CF would be far smaller, cheaper and 
better all around.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 06:54:01 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 05:51:13 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Accelerated Solenoid  Field Reduction?
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At 8:28 AM 2/18/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 17 Feb 2003 06:01:17 -0600:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>I don't think it will make any difference if the cell is rotated along
>with the coil (no relative motion). Of course if the cell doesn't rotate,
>then you have the makings of a homopolar generator, and there should be
>some change in current (increase or decrease depending on the direction of
>rotation).



Such an increase/decrease in current should only occur if there is a net
charge on the coil, true?  I got the (possibly wrong) impression we are
talking about a coil being rotated on its major axis.


At 6:01 AM 2/17/3, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Relativity Question:
>
>If a 1/2 inch diameter (D) "rod" rotating at a router speed of 25,000 RPM (N)
>experiences a "g" force
>of 14.2e-6*D*N^2 = 4,437 "g"s.
>
>Would rotating a solenoid coil surrounding a AAA dry cell powering the
>coil winding,
>reduce it's pull on a magnet or a ferromagnetic material axially mounted
>near the end
>of the coil, decrease as the coil rotation (router) speed increased?
>
>Fred


It appeared to me Fred was talking about rotating the coil about the
battery's (and coil's) main axis.  I don't see how rotation about another
axis is a feasible experiment.  Pretty tough to do.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Subject: Re: Come to Minnesota Resend with comnents added!
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In a message dated 2/18/2003 12:52:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

> What high value crop are you planning on producing that will return your 
> expenses? If you don't mind being in the western part of the state, out of 
> commuting distance from the Twincities, I can get you some real deals on 
> farm steads.

Thank you for the information and support.  I am focusing on building 
enclosed indoor hydroponic organic greenhouses with completely controlled 
climates, to grow foods at an accelerated rate in a sterilized environment, 
by increasing the atmospheric pressures, and varying the florescent light 
properties to energies and pressures that may have occurred millions of years 
ago on Earth, when plants grew to large sizes.   The energies and pressures 
may cause the genes and cells in seeds and plants to grow to larger sizes and 
faster.   

I plan to grow very rare herbs, organic foods and spices and sell the 
extracted oils on the Internet, which if accelerated in growth and in size 
can be somewhat profitable. There will be a 20 billion dollar plant oil 
extract industry in the next 20 to 30 years.  My goal is not profit, but to 
encourage enclosed indoor greenhouses to be developed on a large scale in 
large cities, so that cities may become self sufficient, and foods may be 
grown safely in sterilized environments, to avoid harmful pollution, viruses, 
and diseases.   The greenhouses will be powered with alternative energies, to 
make them energy independent and inexpensive.

I need the land not necessarily for the organic farming or for profit, but to 
build a natural arboretum to preserve plants and animal life and to create a 
park.    If I get the funds from investors, I am working on building models 
of new ideal space age small towns, which use advanced technologies to 
improve privacy, and self sufficiency of towns, integrated with old world 
architectures such as a small Thomas Kinkaid villages.   I may use some of 
the land to build a small space age Thomas Kinkaid village, as a model town 
for others to follow.  I have the plans for new space age small towns posted 
on the web site at the New Age Productions Inc. Web site at <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">
www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>.   I also plan to rezone the land as a USA common law 
district, in federal court so that the town and land, is not subject to 
federal laws and regulations. 

I do not need the land for farming.  I can purchase land which is not ideal 
for farming, and which is highly forested, which I prefer.  I have been 
thinking about Wisconsin also.  But I am a republican or an independent 
politically speaking, and Minnesota is independent presently, whereas 
'Wisconsin and Chicago and Michigan where I live is democratic due to recent 
elections.  I have lot of problems with democrats not favoring my business 
ventures and ideas which support non federalism and republican common law 
towns and small business ventures. 
 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/18/2003 12:52:37 AM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What high value crop are you pl=
anning on producing that will return your expenses? If you don't mind being=20=
in the western part of the state, out of commuting distance from the Twincit=
ies, I can get you some real deals on farm steads.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the information and support.&nbsp; I am focusing on building e=
nclosed indoor hydroponic organic greenhouses with completely controlled cli=
mates, to grow foods at an accelerated rate in a sterilized environment, by=20=
increasing the atmospheric pressures, and varying the florescent light prope=
rties to energies and pressures that may have occurred millions of years ago=
 on Earth, when plants grew to large sizes.&nbsp;&nbsp; The energies and pre=
ssures may cause the genes and cells in seeds and plants to grow to larger s=
izes and faster.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I plan to grow very rare herbs, organic foods and spices and sell the extrac=
ted oils on the Internet, which if accelerated in growth and in size can be=20=
somewhat profitable. There will be a 20 billion dollar plant oil extract ind=
ustry in the next 20 to 30 years.&nbsp; My goal is not profit, but to encour=
age enclosed indoor greenhouses to be developed on a large scale in large ci=
ties, so that cities may become self sufficient, and foods may be grown safe=
ly in sterilized environments, to avoid harmful pollution, viruses, and dise=
ases.&nbsp;&nbsp; The greenhouses will be powered with alternative energies,=
 to make them energy independent and inexpensive.<BR>
<BR>
I need the land not necessarily for the organic farming or for profit, but t=
o build a natural arboretum to preserve plants and animal life and to create=
 a park.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If I get the funds from investors, I am working o=
n building models of new ideal space age small towns, which use advanced tec=
hnologies to improve privacy, and self sufficiency of towns, integrated with=
 old world architectures such as a small Thomas Kinkaid villages.&nbsp;&nbsp=
; I may use some of the land to build a small space age Thomas Kinkaid villa=
ge, as a model town for others to follow.&nbsp; I have the plans for new spa=
ce age small towns posted on the web site at the New Age Productions Inc. We=
b site at <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>.&nbsp;=
&nbsp; I also plan to rezone the land as a USA common law district, in feder=
al court so that the town and land, is not subject to federal laws and regul=
ations. <BR>
<BR>
I do not need the land for farming.&nbsp; I can purchase land which is not i=
deal for farming, and which is highly forested, which I prefer.&nbsp; I have=
 been thinking about Wisconsin also.&nbsp; But I am a republican or an indep=
endent politically speaking, and Minnesota is independent presently, whereas=
 'Wisconsin and Chicago and Michigan where I live is democratic due to recen=
t elections.&nbsp; I have lot of problems with democrats not favoring my bus=
iness ventures and ideas which support non federalism and republican common=20=
law towns and small business ventures. <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_13.18451dc1.2b83a660_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 07:32:37 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:29:21 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Journals to Consider U.S. Security (censorship) in Publishing
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Ed Storms replied;

This is the dumbest idea I have heard from intelligent people in a 
long time.  First of all, what criteria is used to make this 
decision?  The National Security Act and the Atomic Energy Act 
already provide a mechanism to deny certain information.  How will a 
bunch of editors who have no understanding of what is important to 
the country as a whole arrive at their collective decision.?

Makes about as much sense as sensoring an article about how to build 
an H bomb, and then selling the information to the ChiComs.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 08:37:36 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: gravity control?
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One of my Tesla friends sent me this URL 
http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Element_115.htm If you shorten the 
URL up you get the home page. I suppose this is an example of just 
because you read it on the Internet, don't mean that it's so.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 09:08:16 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <131.1ab2a7da.2b83c091 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:00:01 EST
Subject: The beginnings of a New Age 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: carlton.speck delphiauto.com
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  >         He only missed one point because I have knowledge of advanced 
clean 
>propulsion technologies correct Carl speck Delphi's chief scientist?  Carl 
>cannot speak because his hands are tied by GM legal    And that is battery 
>driven autos are not feasible for a replacement for internal combustion. 
>
> GM's new electric one is cluster you know what joke that Dan probably 
worked 
>on.  Current range is a prime deterrent and the toxicity of battery's is 
more 
>damaging than internal combustion. Because they would be an environmental 
>nightmare a 1000 fold what they are now  GM has a battery they have had for 
>over 20 years I think they only have one. And is the most toxic thing there 
>is. 

Hello:
To what battery chemistry are you referring?
      

 It is not public info that I know of and I'm not sure of the exact dynamics. 
The late tech DEV. that I was a Rep. for provided me with some of its 
aspects. He had extensive inside GM contacts and he is the reason their 
Impact  EV was so far ahead of its time when it came out. 

. Because without GM's knowledge their Eng.'s  would bring to him at 3 in the 
morning so he could evaluate it and make vast engineering improvements. You 
need to understand he was on  Nicola Tesla and Einstein's level.  I live in a 
totally different world of technology than you do. . 

 Once  him and the Eng's became stranded in it in Clio Mi. and the police 
blocked off the road until GM sent out a truck to pick it up.  Me  as the 
promoter  and the prime part of his group are working on all new power 
conversion, and propulsion situations totally beyond known technologies. 

The late DEV. and I  all ready showed  the chief scientist of the Delphi 
corp. the next steps in evolution beyond known situations.  I even have a 
mail from him stating he did not understand anything he was shown. That I 
used to gain creditability across the planet with. To the point  major corp. 
filed 28 complaints with the state basically saying I made fools of them.    

 GM is adding or reassigning 1000 ENG. to work on alternative projects 
because of those meetings in the fall of 2001. Delphi presently has 5400 
Eng.'s Understand they would not need 95% of them if they conducted  business 
with us. They were also showed by the same DEV. the beginnings of a 
combustion tech. 20 years ago that did not need a converter and you could 
breath the exhaust without any harm to you.

 They spent millions on but were not able to dev. because they would not pay 
licensing fees to our late DEV. You have to understand they have a not 
invented here syndrome. They also have giant counter productive ego's that 
would be crushed if they had to admit they knew basically zero. 

Also 20 years ago he showed them the bases for there magnequench.process  
They pimped him to an extent over that one by stealing some of the info. from 
him. That he did not intend to give them. A smart ENG> was able to get behind 
him and look over his back.and was able to remember part of the matrix for a 
Star trec level exotic inter active field propulsion tech. that DOW Corning 
saw operational in 1990/91.  

 He needed GM to spend their money DEV. it for him is the reason he 
approached them with it in the first place. Basically he dangle bait in front 
of them to see if they would take it. THe same thing he did with the clean 
combustion platform. Toyota because they have the best Eng. on the planet 
almost perfected. it. 

 It took GM 3 years to figure out the Magnequench process from what they had 
obtained but were only able to figure out a fraction of the 30% of the 
matrix. He had only taken 30% of the overall matrix to GM when he met with 
them. in the early 80's.  .  

A ranking city official attended the meetings with us. In the fall of 2001 
that I had arranged.  They were instructed for free how to make there now 
totally obsolete hydrogen propulsion process how to function. So as before 
they would spend their money which they currently doing. They never learn 
because of their counter productive arrogance and their not invented here 
syndrome. 

GM is very predictable as far as what their actions will be in given set of 
circumstances. You have to know to use their actions in your favor which is 
what he could accomplish. They are blinded by their desire to get over on 
someone and that is their weakness. You use that weakness against them. It 
works every time doesn't it Carl speck. Carl understands the game that the 
late DEV> played with GM. Because I told him what was going on. 

If you do not have money you have to figure out a way to make situations like 
GM spend theirs. Now we will not have to use those tactics anymore because we 
will create our own situations GM cannot compete with. By them spending all 
that money proving his concepts. has given us creditability. 

The only mistake our DEV. made was with Dow corning when they asked for 
another chance after they attempted there Corp. Games and he would not play 
them. At that point he could have made the deal he wanted. But he blew it. 
Personally I learned from that mistake of his. 

After the Dow situation. He became very sick for 6 years because he continued 
to play with the self contained inter active field  propulsion and the exotic 
fields it emitted  caused DNA damage. But could be a safe product with 20 
million and three years of DEV. It is a totally different form of magnetics. 
It is just the opposite of known magnetics. And has nothing to do with 
electromagnetism.  As far as knowledge  He was out there in the 40 Th. 
century somewhere as Tesla was. WE have demonstrable technology not theory to 
prove it.     

 I met him in the summer of 99 and was able to create the bases for the CO. 
we are attempting to create now. That was the one thing he was never able to 
accomplish was the creation of the company to go with his various new 
different technologies. He died in late DEC 2002. .         . 

    GM was  looking at the hydrogen  backwards. Because they  were using 
theory only based thinking to look at it. DAN who I raked over the coals 
because of his arrogant attitude is a GM Eng. and if he knows anybody he 
would have found out that I knew what I was speaking of when he shot off his 
mouth before investigating.

Which is typical for his types that think they know all there is to know? 
Plus he could not understand what I was speaking of in regard to new 
situations he should have knowledge of but did not. That he was not able to 
understand even after I told him the concept so he became frustrated and 
lashed out. After I questioned him about his base of knowledge He did not 
like that at all. His attitude is Who do you think you are if you question 
him because he is a PE. 

  They are in for a very rude awaking along with rest of in the box theory 
only thinking main stream science. WE demo operational and colleges have saw 
it operational an advanced but obsolete to us electricity phase conversion 
and conservation technology that totally boggles their minds that will 
drastically reduce power requirements for any given situation up at least 
75%. 

Because it utilizes the now unknown wasted aspects of A/C current that are 
contained in the delivery process that you all ready pay for and causes them 
to be the prime power providers instead of say amps That is totally opposite 
of how science thinks they understand electricity. Presently were are forming 
a company to enable manuf.      

The now closed loop no exhaust totally  obsolete to us combustion concept is 
for sale for 500 million. Plus $10 royalty for every platform built. The 
concept is a 6 Cy. with 8 Cy. Performance and 4 CY. mileage. Because it would 
totally burn all the fuel and the only residue would be clean carbon that 
your lawn would love. Delphi's chief scientist acknowledged the diagram when 
it was showed to him. 

 It is the same theory and proven because there is no difference between a 
cube of gas and a gal of gas. They both have the same burn potential.  Now 
the unit of electricity does also because of what we have.  The same as a gas 
fire place you can buy at say lowes I own one and I brought it at Lowes that 
is 99% EFF. Which all goes back to what you were saying murdoch they are in 
bed with each other and the OIL Co. hold there debt? 

They did not have that debt 20 years ago when they first saw the concept.    
So they spent those millions on the clean combustion concept. But now the 
problem is if it was used the oil Co. would sell far less gas. Imagine 
driving a big SUV with 4 Cy. mileage.  The auto companies are caught up in a 
Classic Catch 22 The oil CO's are not ignorant like the auto CO's. But they 
are both arrogant and elitist Especially GM.  

   What I'm speaking of  in regard to technology is a different world than 
you have any knowledge of as far I know.  But Murdoch  you called the current 
oil and auto CO. Game "Correct".     Plus I speak from a business stand point 
and SCI. types  do not understand business. 

Plus now they do not understand new evolutionary futuristic science fiction 
level science either. Soon They are not going to be happy campers. at all. 
The basically complete down fall of main stream science will be  sweet 
justice. Because of their arrogant attitudes. BecauseThat is all i have seen 
from them for 3 years. They have no one to blame but themselves for their pen
ding demise as creditable situations. .    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 09:29:15 2003
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From: Keasy aol.com
Message-ID: <183.1722e3ed.2b83c61d aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:23:41 EST
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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In a message dated 2/17/2003 7:01:19 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
kyle_mcallister yahoo.com writes:

> Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
> what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
> magnetic potentials are? Or are they not even assumed
> to propagate? Math is welcome as far as a response is
> concerned, but words are appreciated too.
> 
> Thanks,
> --Kyle
> 

Well, the generally accepted theoretical answer is c (in free space).  Any 
time a potential changes it is caused by some change in source distribution, 
or a propagating field.  The effects of both are described by Maxwell's 
equations, which lead to a speed of c.  
                                                                           
Ken

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/17/2003 7:01:19 PM Mountain Stand=
ard Time, kyle_mcallister yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Can anyone provide me with info=
rmation pertaining to<BR>
what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and<BR>
magnetic potentials are? Or are they not even assumed<BR>
to propagate? Math is welcome as far as a response is<BR>
concerned, but words are appreciated too.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
--Kyle<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Well, the generally accepted theoretical answer is c (in free space).&nbsp;=20=
Any time a potential changes it is caused by some change in source distribut=
ion, or a propagating field.&nbsp; The effects of both are described by Maxw=
ell's equations, which lead to a speed of c.&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken</FONT><=
/HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 09:46:16 2003
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From: "Robert E. Brady" <rebrady eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Gravity, the shadow theory
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:37:40 -0800
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I have place a copy of this article at
http://www.eskimo.com/~rebrady/gravity1.htm
 
Bob Brady

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m/~rebrady/gravity1.htm</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 10:03:34 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:00:16 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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thomas malloy wrote:

> One of my Tesla friends sent me this URL 
> http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Element_115.htm If you shorten the URL 
> up you get the home page. I suppose this is an example of just because 
> you read it on the Internet, don't mean that it's so.
>
>


Not if it requires element 115.  This is the Bob Lazar hoax.

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 10:17:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:13:12 EST
Subject: One question DAN? 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: carlton.speck delphiauto.com
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          Good for you Dan for spreading the word about  alternative 
propulsion.  The fact is   Your a GM engineer Did you call the Chief 
Scientist of The Delphi Corp. to find if I was real and totally factual? 
Because I gave you his direct NO. I'm sorry your HyOx is not the answer or 
anywhere close to it. 

 He knows it is not and neither is anything else that is currently.being 
looked at.  And he knows that to. Just ask him. Your a total complete fool it 
you did not investigate my claims. Or you did investigate and will not say so 
Which is it DAN ????????? TELL US  

 Did GM legal tell you as they told him not to speak with us.?  It appears GM 
is using you to support there backwards thinking situations. Because if you 
were supporting HyOx on your own it would have to be with there approval.    
Also you do not use your GM E mail Address. CORRECT   

I just love ENG> they go good with mustard. I do not even burp anymore. But I 
do get heart burn from hell. Because of all that bad tasting in the box 
theory they are full of and they burn like hell when they come out. Because 
they are full of gasoline in this case hydrogen. That is my Eng. Phy. Joke do 
you like it????  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 10:31:11 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:26:28 EST
Subject: DAN We have the new technologies that solve the problems 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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       No one else does.  How about supporting us? Instead of a HyOx 
situation that will go no where  Plus you may learn something in the process. 
That replaces the majority of what you know with far more advanced knowledge. 
Dan that is  what visionaries do they attempt to broaden their base of 
knowledge. As Carl Speck has by investigating Tesla as he is now. They do not 
care if what they know becomes obsolete as long as they can replace that old 
knowledge with new knowledge.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 12:58:15 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:52:57 +1100
From: Alan Schneider <alansch zipworld.com.au>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Jeff Kooistra wrote:
> 
>> I hope so, though.  As for spaced based power--I used to be gung-ho on 
>> that, but the expense will be huge . . .
> 
> 
> It would be reduced by a huge factor by a space elevator. I thought that 
> space elevators were centuries away, but I was surprised to learn that 
> recent advances in materials may make them possible even today. See:
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,57536,00.html
> 
> 
>> , and there will continue to be those who think beaming the power
>> back down to Earth is hazardous.
> 
> 
> Done properly, it should be no more hazardous than intense sunlight.

Are large scale carbon nanotubes sufficiently conductive to
use as a power transmission line from orbit?
Of course one would then have the problem of distributing the
power from wherever the space elevator was anchored.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 13:13:15 2003
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Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
In-Reply-To: <3E529D29.70708 zipworld.com.au>
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Alan Schneider wrote:

>>Done properly, it should be no more hazardous than intense sunlight.
>
>Are large scale carbon nanotubes sufficiently conductive to
>use as a power transmission line from orbit?

I doubt it, but that is a very interesting thought! The plans I have seen 
would all work by shipping equipment up the elevator. The equipment is 
assembled to make a huge Photovoltaic collector array and some sort of beam 
that sends the energy back to a large collector on earth. I have never 
heard of the idea of using the space elevator ribbon cable as a conductor, 
but that's an interesting concept.

People have not thought much about these prospects yet, as far as I know. 
Alan Schneider may be the first person in history to suggest this, and 
someday it may power the world! Who knows.


>Of course one would then have the problem of distributing the
>power from wherever the space elevator was anchored.

That's true. Present plans are to anchor them on "mobile ocean platform" 
which means "a ship" I guess.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 13:30:44 2003
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A couple of other possibilities. If nanotubes are hollow
(and the fact they are called "tubes" implies this), they
could conceivably be used as waveguides for energy
transmission at an appropriate frequency.

Or one could possibly use the "elevator rail" as
scaffolding for a more conventional transmission system.

Alan


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Alan Schneider wrote:
> 
>>> Done properly, it should be no more hazardous than intense sunlight.
>>
>>
>> Are large scale carbon nanotubes sufficiently conductive to
>> use as a power transmission line from orbit?
> 
> 
> I doubt it, but that is a very interesting thought! The plans I have 
> seen would all work by shipping equipment up the elevator. The equipment 
> is assembled to make a huge Photovoltaic collector array and some sort 
> of beam that sends the energy back to a large collector on earth. I have 
> never heard of the idea of using the space elevator ribbon cable as a 
> conductor, but that's an interesting concept.
> 
> People have not thought much about these prospects yet, as far as I 
> know. Alan Schneider may be the first person in history to suggest this, 
> and someday it may power the world! Who knows.
> 
> 
>> Of course one would then have the problem of distributing the
>> power from wherever the space elevator was anchored.
> 
> 
> That's true. Present plans are to anchor them on "mobile ocean platform" 
> which means "a ship" I guess.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 13:37:41 2003
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Message-ID: <001e01c2d795$5ae43780$c3291c43 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v01530500ba77e866857a [12.21.211.129]>
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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> At 9:20 PM 2/17/3, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote:
> >> Can anyone provide me with information pertaining to
> >> what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric and
> >> magnetic potentials are?
> >
> >The speed of propagation of the potentials is c.
> >
> >kooistra
>
HH said:

> This depends on the the assumed meaning of the term "potential", and on
the
> nature of the conductor through which the potential travels, if there be
> such a conductor, and whether the signal propagated is AC or a single step
> change in DC potential.

Given that Kyle had to ask the question, I didn't want to hit him with a
load of "depends uponses." <G>

In my view, Jefimenko has already answered this question to my
satisfaction--if you assume the potentials are c-limited (that is, retarded)
and you rigorously apply the retarded equations within E&M, then all of the
equations of special relativity appear as a logical necessity of the fact of
retardation.

kooistra


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> People have not thought much about these prospects yet, as far as I 
> know. Alan Schneider may be the first person in history to suggest 
> this, and someday it may power the world! Who knows. 


Ackshully, a conductive space elevator could be disasterous.  Remenber 
the Shuttle tether experiment?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 13:48:01 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:46:53 -0500 (EST)
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To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: laser power
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	Dear Vo Group,

	Off and on from time to time we see posts which discuss lasers
with "n gabazillion watts".
	It is not uncommon for journalists and laser sales persons to cite
peak power of very brief pulses.  Further, continuous power may be from 1
to 50 watts. Often power is expressed in watts per second of Joules.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 13:55:57 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Ackshully, a conductive space elevator could be disasterous.  Remenber the 
>Shuttle tether experiment?

The one that burned up, as I recall. Plenty of power, anyway. Didn't it 
charge up and burn up because it was moving? This elevator ribbon cable 
would be still. And an odd sight it would be! Clarke, the promotors today 
and many others have predicted that people would come from miles around 
just to see it.

Obviously this project would call for a great deal of R&D before it could 
be implemented. To say the least.

I presume they would have a nonconductive material for the elevator lifter, 
and a different ribbon made of different material for power, maybe hundreds 
or thousands of miles away.

Anyway, if it was the same ribbon . . . they wouldn't use it as an elevator 
when it was in use as an electric wire (or laser guide, or what-have-you). 
Except perhaps as a way to power the cars climbing up the ribbon.

- Jed


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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:58:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: JCarey9622 aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: why is this impossible
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	Dear Jack,

	 iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP.
OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V  THAT is totally impossible according to taught
theory.

	Why do you say it is impossible to convert 220 V to 6 hp of 3
phase work?

	

	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 14:08:33 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: CF or space-based power
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:21:06 -0500
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Terry writes:
>Ackshully, a conductive space elevator could be disasterous.  Remenber 
>the Shuttle tether experiment?

Exactulately, Terry.

I suppose whether you call the results a disaster
or a whomping success depends on how much stock
you own in ExxonMobil. But the space shuttle
tether came to mind with Alan's post.

The problem is the tether, of course. Making
that bad boy would be quite a challenge for
the materials scientist. I think beaming power
would be more practical, although you'd lose
that great free generator. Microwave schemes
seem pretty efficient, and can be done today.

By the way, why does the space station use/plan
so many solar panels when you can get KW's
just by stringing out a wire??? Must be those
liberal environmentalists again. Damn them! If
only they weren't running the country 
we'd be in fat city...(grin) 

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:33 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power


Jed Rothwell wrote:

> People have not thought much about these prospects yet, as far as I 
> know. Alan Schneider may be the first person in history to suggest 
> this, and someday it may power the world! Who knows. 


Ackshully, a conductive space elevator could be disasterous.  Remenber 
the Shuttle tether experiment?

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 14:13:50 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218160319.00af0370@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218164141.00b02898@pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The one that burned up, as I recall. Plenty of power, anyway. Didn't 
> it charge up and burn up because it was moving? This elevator ribbon 
> cable would be still. And an odd sight it would be! Clarke, the 
> promotors today and many others have predicted that people would come 
> from miles around just to see it.


I would love to see it in my lifetime.

Of course everything is always moving.

There are two separate issues to be concerned about:

1) The static potential rise as you move up in the atmosphere.  You may 
recall vortex discussions on tapping this potential using tin roofs on 
Fred's (?) barn.; and,

2) The induced potential as the cable moves through the earth's fields. 
 This is what the space tether was measuring.

Then, of course, there's lightning.

Alan was speaking of using the elevator as a transmission line; but, it 
might also be used as a generator!!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 14:19:16 2003
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From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:18:27 -0600
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <9vb55v8lck0an6he1i7bs3m2mnebnrtspq 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218160319.00af0370@pop.mindspring.com> <3E52A6A3.6090709@rtpatlanta.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218164141.00b02898@pop.mindspring.com>
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On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:47:02 -0500, Jed Rothwell
<JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:

>The one that burned up, as I recall. Plenty of power, anyway. Didn't it 
>charge up and burn up because it was moving? 

Well, maybe.  It had both way too much voltage and way too much
current according to the NASA people (but many people were predicting
the excesses C'Serve).

>This elevator ribbon cable would be still. 

Maybe.  The Earth does rotate, after all.  :)  And the solar wind does
move.

Right now some physicists have recently hypothesized that normal
lightning from thunderclouds is actually a short-circuit of the
space-to-Earth electric charge that exists.  IOW, some lightning is
actually "space lightning."

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 14:57:43 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Dear Mr. Znidarsic:

I am sorry to report to you that the referee's report on your manuscript is 
not positive and recommends rejection of your manuscript. The detailed 
report is copied below.

Referee report: Znidarsic " The elastic limit of space and the quantum
condition"
I have read this paper, and recommend that it be rejected. The errors are such
that a rewriting cannot make it suitable for publication in a serious physics
journal.
The author makes a series of unfounded and unexplained assertions which, when
combined with the misuse of first year college physics, lead to completely
unsupported conclusions. For example, the paper starts by writing the equation
for the potential energy stored in a classical capacitor: E = Q**2/(2C). He
then assumes that E is the rest mass of an electron (9 x 10**(-31) Kg. is 
what I
guess he uses), makes some assumption for the charge (1 electron charge?) and
solves for C. This, he claims, is the quantum of the elastic limit of space.
Such a concept is not known in physics. To explain this, he refers to an
analogy between "the matter wavefunction" and "a wave stuck on a broken 
spring."
Neither of these concepts makes any sense at all.
The paper is mostly nonsense, is fatally flawed, and should be rejected.


Based on this report the manuscript cannot be considered for publication in 
the JLTP.

Sincerely,................Neil Sullivan

Neil S. Sullivan

2014 Turlington Hall    Phone (352) 392-0780
University of Florida     Fax    (352) 392-3584
Gainesville, FL 32611   E-mail sullivan phys.ufl.edu

http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~neil/

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<html>
Dear Mr. Znidarsic:<br>
<br>
I am sorry to report to you that the referee's report on your manuscript
is not positive and recommends rejection of your manuscript. The detailed
report is copied below.<br>
<br>
Referee report: Znidarsic &quot; The elastic limit of space and the
quantum <br>
condition&quot;<br>
I have read this paper, and recommend that it be rejected. The errors are
such <br>
that a rewriting cannot make it suitable for publication in a serious
physics <br>
journal.<br>
The author makes a series of unfounded and unexplained assertions which,
when <br>
combined with the misuse of first year college physics, lead to
completely <br>
unsupported conclusions. For example, the paper starts by writing the
equation <br>
for the potential energy stored in a classical capacitor: E = Q**2/(2C).
He <br>
then assumes that E is the rest mass of an electron (9 x 10**(-31) Kg. is
what I <br>
guess he uses), makes some assumption for the charge (1 electron charge?)
and <br>
solves for C. This, he claims, is the quantum of the elastic limit of
space. <br>
Such a concept is not known in physics. To explain this, he refers to an
<br>
analogy between &quot;the matter wavefunction&quot; and &quot;a wave
stuck on a broken spring.&quot; <br>
Neither of these concepts makes any sense at all.<br>
The paper is mostly nonsense, is fatally flawed, and should be
rejected.<br>
<br>
<br>
Based on this report the manuscript cannot be considered for publication
in the JLTP.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,................Neil Sullivan<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Neil S. Sullivan<br>
<br>
2014 Turlington Hall<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Phone (352)
392-0780<br>
University of Florida <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>&nbsp;
Fax&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (352) 392-3584 <br>
Gainesville, FL 32611<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>E-mail
sullivan phys.ufl.edu<br>
<br>
<font color="#0000FF"><u><a href="http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~neil/" eudora="autourl">http</a></u></font>://www.phys.ufl<a href="http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~neil/" eudora="autourl"><font color="#0000FF"><u>.edu/~neil/</a><br>
</font></u></html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 15:10:55 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:06:42 EST
Subject: Re: why is this impossible sorry it is not 
To: herman antioch-college.edu
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In a message dated 2/18/03 4:57:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:


> 
> 
> 
> 
>     Dear Jack,
> 
>     iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP.
> OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V  THAT is totally impossible according to taught
> theory.
>    REPLY  TELL me something I do not know. NO S-IT      WHO CARES ABOUT 
> THEORY ?     That would be a 2 HP obsolete version RTPC  like the we made  
> for Dennis lee and a customer. The 110 V  to 3 phase is more advanced. That 
> is what Infinite Energy tested. 

    DEnnis lee saw it for 3 days then  flew us out for a week  Gary 
vesperman, Dr. Ralph Cruise,  A world class physicist who has been on several 
DOC's, Dr > Mark cannot remember an M.E.   who was with Gary,and Ralph.   Tom 
> Crampton The Executive Dean of a 50 million tech center here, Dr. Dave 
> doherty a vice president of Kettering univ, Motts top Eng. Marty ?  and 
> Dave roach that heads their electronic lab, Plus Bruce Meland the editor of 
> E times. all saw it operational . And Mark Elliot The international film 
> maker from Melbourne  When he was on a world wide in scope fact finder for 
> a planned DOC. He was backed by the Aust. Govt. Discovery Canada and the 
> Aust. broadcasting CO> All were totally clueless in regard to how it 
> functioned but cannot deny it did .  Welcome to the 23 rd. century.     

   All  our cutomers  care about is operational situations.    PERIOD   
Theory does not pay the bills Customers do.      
> The 3 phase motors it operates wheather they are our ultra advanced high 
> EFF.  modified TESLA INSPIRED  ones  or reg. ones will not stall.under 
> heavy lode either   Figure that one out? 

  IF YOU know anything about 3 phase electric motors they will stall under 
heavy loads. And they get hot ours do not 
> Figure that one out.?    3 phase motors like cold weather ours or REG ones 
> on customers machines do not  Figure that one out?   Unless you know TESLA 
> inside and out   Just give up and forget it.    

    What do you want me to do about your theory. ?  What we did is write new 
theory to replace it with. It has been 
> sent to you.  physics is just a counter productive restrictive roadblock.and 
> is why our civilization is not evolving NOW maybe it will  


>     Why do you say it is impossible to convert 220 V to 6 hp of 3
> phase work?      Reply what is this  supposed to mean  
> 
>     
> 
>     
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/18/0=
3 4:57:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear Jack,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP.<BR>
OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V&nbsp; THAT is totally impossible according to tau=
ght<BR>
theory.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; TELL me something I do not know. NO S-IT&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WHO CARES ABOUT THEORY ?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That wo=
uld be a 2 HP obsolete version RTPC&nbsp; like the we made&nbsp; for Dennis=20=
lee and a customer. The 110 V&nbsp; to 3 phase is more advanced. That is wha=
t Infinite Energy tested. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUN=
D-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></=
BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DEnnis le=
e saw it for 3 days then&nbsp; flew us out for a week&nbsp; Gary vesperman,=20=
Dr. Ralph Cruise,&nbsp; A world class physicist who has been on several DOC'=
s, Dr <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGI=
N-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Mark cannot remember an M=
.E.&nbsp;&nbsp; who was with Gary,and Ralph.&nbsp;&nbsp; Tom Crampton The Ex=
ecutive Dean of a 50 million tech center here, Dr. Dave doherty a vice presi=
dent of Kettering univ, Motts top Eng. Marty ?&nbsp; and Dave roach that hea=
ds their electronic lab, Plus Bruce Meland the editor of E times. all saw it=
 operational . And Mark Elliot The international film maker from Melbourne&n=
bsp; When he was on a world wide in scope fact finder for a planned DOC. He=20=
was backed by the Aust. Govt. Discovery Canada and the Aust. broadcasting CO=
&gt; All were totally clueless in regard to how it functioned but cannot den=
y it did .&nbsp; Welcome to the 23 rd. century.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FO=
NT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAM=
ILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; All&nbsp; our c=
utomers&nbsp; care about is operational situations.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<U> PER=
IOD</U>&nbsp;&nbsp; Theory does not pay the bills Customers do.&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">The 3 phase motors it operates wheather they are our ultra=20=
advanced high EFF.&nbsp; modified TESLA INSPIRED&nbsp; ones&nbsp; or reg. on=
es will not stall.under heavy lode either&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure that one out? <=
/FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=20=
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp; IF YOU know anything about 3 phase electric motors they will stall un=
der heavy loads. And they get hot ours do not </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Figure that one out.?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 phase motors like=
 cold weather ours or REG ones on customers machines do not&nbsp; Figure tha=
t one out?&nbsp;&nbsp; Unless you know TESLA inside and out&nbsp;&nbsp; Just=
 give up and forget it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What do y=
ou want me to do about your theory. ?&nbsp; What we did is write new theory=20=
to replace it with. It has been </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">sent to you.&nbsp; physics is just a counter productive res=
trictive roadblock.and is why our civilization is not evolving NOW maybe it=20=
will&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Why do you s=
ay it is impossible to convert 220 V to 6 hp of 3<BR>
phase work?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply what is this&nbsp; supposed=20=
to mean&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 15:40:01 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <b6.18928c45.2b841b68 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:27:36 EST
Subject: Re: Reprt on your Manuscript
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Thank you for the review of my manuscript.  I'm sorry the reviewer did not 
understand it.    

The reviewer stated that, " E is the rest mass of an electron (9 x 10**(-31) 
Kg. is"  
My paper clearly states that "The energy E is the rest energy of the 
electron."  The reviewer did not read the paper.
I do understand the difference between energy and mass.

The reviewer states "his, he claims, is the quantum of the elastic limit of 
space.
Such a concept is not known in physics. To explain this, he refers to an
analogy between "the matter wavefunction" and "a wave stuck on a broken 
spring." Neither of these concepts makes any sense at all."

The reviewer also states, "when combined with the misuse of first year 
college physics,"

Apparently the reviewer does not understand first year college physics.  The 
concept of elastic limit is known to high school students.  The idea of an 
elastic limit can be applied to a wave in simple harmonic motion.  When the 
amplitude of  a wave exceeds the elastic limit of the medium the medium 
breaks.
The only new thing that I did was apply this idea to the matter wave.  This 
application is very orthodox and conventional science.  It does , however, 
have tremendous implications.

I would like to add that reviews like this have held up advances in science.  
I my case they will block my contribution.

Frank Znidarsic

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 16:23:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:20:25 EST
Subject: Re: Reprt on your Manuscript
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        I'm gave Neil in Florida  a strong dose of Jack  and our Tech's will 
review  your paper in a few days There on Tesla and Einstein's level   Do you 
wish to speak to one of them about your theories ? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 17:53:52 2003
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From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com><5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0@pop.mindspring.com><5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218160319.00af0370@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:50:45 -0500
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> People have not thought much about these prospects yet, as far as I know.
> Alan Schneider may be the first person in history to suggest this, and
> someday it may power the world! Who knows.

After Clarke and Charles Sheffield nearly simultaneously wrote novels with
Space Elevators in them back in the 80s, the topic was covered fairly
extensively in science fiction, so much so that space elevators are now
common background elements, no longer requiring explanation (see, for
instance PICOVERSE from just last year).  So no, Alan was not the first to
suggest using the elevator cable itself as the power conduit.

For that matter, you could avoid all the difficulties of trying to bring a
big solar power unit online by just putting a whopping huge nuclear power
plant out at the end of the cable--past the geosynch point (it could serve
double duty as the anchor weight).  If something goes wrong, it (and
everything it is made of) is already moving faster than earth escape
velocity, so it heads off into the void with no chance of ever hitting the
Earth.

kooistra


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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:14:34 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: "virtual c"
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Virtual-c

No, its not a citrus drink like Hi-C, nor a health food like Special-K : =
no, sorry, virtual-c may only be the "key" of Z, as in ZPE, several =
octaves above ultrasound, so to speak.

Before anyone gets too up-in-arms about the physics here, remember that =
it is possible, on occasion, to interject a little touch of quasi-absurd =
humor into science, especially into "fringe" science...=20

... would a real tekie knee-slapper be called a humerus fracture?

At any rate consider how beneficial it might be if one could effectively =
raise some kind of media to virtual lightspeed. All kinds of weird and =
wonderful things happen there, with advantageous free energy =
implications: time dilation, mass increase, pair production, etc.

Of course, if it has any mass at all, you'll never get there. But can =
light speed be "simulated" with modest energy input?=20

300,000 km/sec is way high, but 68 km/sec is a little more doable, and =
can show up in chemical reactions and ionic collisions...but, is there =
any way to make these kind of reactions "appear" to be acting =
extra-dimensionally, as in a hypercube?

In order to catch the drift of the forthcoming half-humerous device, to =
be dubbed "virtual  c positronium decay reactor" or more colloquially, =
the "jounce-blaster," you need to "bone-up" on some terminology.

First from Baez's site, [paraphrased]
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html
by Philip Gibbs and Stephanie Gragert

What is the term used for the third derivative of position?

It is well known that the first derivative of position (symbol x) with =
respect to time is velocity (symbol v) and the second is acceleration =
(symbol a).  It is a little less well known that the third derivative, =
i.e. the rate of change of acceleration, is technically known as *jerk* =
(symbol j). =20

Jerk is a vector but may also be used loosely as a scalar quantity =
because there is not a separate term for the magnitude of jerk analogous =
to speed for magnitude of velocity. In the UK "jolt" has sometimes been =
used instead of jerk.

Many other terms have appeared in individual cases for the third =
derivative, including pulse, impulse, bounce, surge, shock and =
super-acceleration.  These are generally less appropriate than jerk and =
jolt, either because they are used in engineering to mean other things =
or because the common English use of the word does not fit the meaning =
so well.  For example impulse is more commonly used in physics to mean a =
change of momentum imparted by a force of limited duration [Belanger =
1847] and surge is used by electricians to mean something like rate of =
change of current or voltage.  The terms jerk and jolt are therefore =
preferred for rate of change of acceleration.  Jerk appears to be the =
more common of the two.=20

As its name suggests, jerk is important when evaluating the destructive =
effect of motion on a mechanism or the discomfort caused to passengers =
in a vehicle.  The movement of delicate instruments needs to be kept =
within specified limits of jerk as well as acceleration to avoid damage. =
=20

Some space engineers are said to have even gone as far as specifying =
limits on the magnitude of the fourth derivative.  There is no =
universally accepted name for the fourth derivative, i.e. the rate of =
change of jerk, The term jounce has been used but it has the drawback of =
using the same initial letter as jerk so it is not clear which symbol to =
use.  Another less serious suggestion is snap (symbol s), crackle =
(symbol c) and pop (symbol p) for the 4th, 5th and 6th derivatives =
respectively.  Higher derivatives do not yet have names because they do =
not come up very often.

Since force (F =3D ma) is rate of change of momentum (p, symbol clashes =
with pop) it seems necessary to find terms for higher derivatives of =
force too.  So far yank (symbol Y) has been suggested for rate of change =
of force, tug (symbol T) for rate of change of yank, snatch (symbol S) =
for rate of change of tug and shake (symbol Sh) for rate of change of =
snatch.  Needless to say, none of these are in any kind of standards, =
yet.  We just made them up -Now class, repeat after me. . .

Momentum equals mass times velocity!
Force equals mass times acceleration!
Yank equals mass times jerk!
Tug equals mass times snap!
Snatch equals mass times crackle!
Shake equals mass times pop!!=20

Enuf, already....OK let's get as far away from Baez as possible, but =
remember what jounce is, and go on to the next lesson:

We know that "virtual pair" production is real and that enormous =
energies are involved. I won't go into the background of virtual pair =
production other than to say that it is probably a common phenomena of =
mass when accelerated near light speed, BUT that the overall prospect of =
capturing the annihilation energy of "virtual pairs" is hopeless for the =
"free energy" crowd, because the lifetime of pairs in our 3space is far =
too short to be a viable source of free energy, ZPE theories =
notwithstanding.=20

However a special kind of virtual pair is much longer lived : the =
electron-positron pair, but even so, the prospect of capturing positrons =
from the vacuum seems intractable. But Heisenberg's door may be cracked =
open just far enough to admit, not the positron itself but its "wake". =
i.e. its 6.8 eV binding energy with its virtual electron.=20

This binding energy is but a tiny fraction of the positron or electron =
mass/energy of ~ .5 MeV, or a full GeV if they were to actually =
annihilate in our 3-space, but still 6.8 isn't too shabby, more than =
what one gets from hydrogen combustion. The proven Lamb shift may be =
indicative of the ongoing reality of this phenomenon around bare =
protons.  Get protons to jounce and you exponentially blast the Lamb =
shift into a usable feature.
If a 6.8 eV binding energy photon turns out to be the most "natural" =
gateway to ZPE coherence and that free energy can be captured under =
certain circumstances, it is a consequence of the positrons and electron =
having just enough time to form a fleeting virtual atom, positronium =
(Ps) which is anisotropically disrupted by proximity to something =
locally before fading into someone else's 3-space. In other words, if =
you jounce a proton, you might get big check.

OK that's the end of the background material for the jounce blaster.

The $64 question is how to you get a proton to jounce so that it not =
only causes a lot of virtual positronium to appear/ disappear (leaving =
in its wake, the juicy 6.8 eV ultraviolet photon for us to enjoy as =
"free."

First of all, you have to get hydrogen in a form where there are lots of =
free protons that can be jounced around. A good way is to load hydrogen =
into a metal matrix. We don't need palladium for this version, it's way =
too expensive, but nickel or titanium will do fine.

Next how do you create a lot of "jerk"? Remember that jerk is the third =
derivative of position, i.e. the rate of change of acceleration. =
Probably the best way to vary acceleration over time cheaply is the =
piezoelectric ultrasonic transducer.

Once you've got proton jerk (don't let the Jamaicans hear about this) =
the next step, getting the whole shebang to *jounce* is a bit more =
difficult...or is it?=20

Stay tuned for the next installment...

Jones





------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2D779.97208260
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Virtual-c</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>No, its not a citrus drink like Hi-C,&nbsp;nor&nbsp;a health food =
like=20
Special-K :&nbsp;no, sorry, virtual-c may only be&nbsp;the "key"&nbsp;of =
Z, as=20
in ZPE, several octaves above ultrasound, so to speak.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Before anyone gets too up-in-arms about the physics here, remember =
that it=20
is possible, on occasion,&nbsp;to interject a little touch of =
quasi-absurd humor=20
into science, especially into "fringe" science... </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>... would a real tekie knee-slapper be called&nbsp;a humerus=20
fracture?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>At any rate consider how beneficial it might be if one could =
effectively=20
raise some kind of media to virtual lightspeed. All kinds of weird and =
wonderful=20
things happen there, with advantageous free energy implications: time =
dilation,=20
mass increase, pair production, etc.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Of course, if it has any mass at all, you'll never get there. But =
can light=20
speed be "simulated" with modest energy input? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>300,000 km/sec is way high, but 68 km/sec is a little more doable, =
and can=20
show up in chemical reactions and ionic collisions...but, is there any =
way to=20
make these kind of reactions&nbsp;"appear" to be acting =
extra-dimensionally, as=20
in a hypercube?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In order to catch the drift of the forthcoming half-humerous =
device, to be=20
dubbed "virtual&nbsp; c positronium decay reactor" or more colloquially, =
the=20
"jounce-blaster," you need to "bone-up" on some&nbsp;terminology.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>First from Baez's site, [paraphrased]</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html">http://m=
ath.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>by Philip Gibbs and&nbsp;Stephanie Gragert<BR></DIV>
<DIV>What is the term used for the third derivative of position?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>It is well known that the first derivative of position (symbol =
x) with=20
respect to time is velocity (symbol v) and the second is acceleration =
(symbol=20
a).&nbsp; It is a little less well known that the third derivative, i.e. =
the=20
rate of change of acceleration, is technically known as *jerk* (symbol =
j).&nbsp;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jerk is a vector but may also be used loosely as a scalar quantity =
because=20
there is not a separate term for the magnitude of jerk analogous to =
speed for=20
magnitude of velocity. In the UK "jolt" has sometimes been used instead =
of=20
jerk.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Many other terms have appeared in individual cases for the =
third=20
derivative, including pulse, impulse, bounce, surge, shock and=20
super-acceleration.&nbsp; These are generally less appropriate than jerk =
and=20
jolt, either because they are used in engineering to mean other things =
or=20
because the common English use of the word does not fit the meaning so=20
well.&nbsp; For example impulse is more commonly used in physics to mean =
a=20
change of momentum imparted by a force of limited duration [Belanger =
1847] and=20
surge is used by electricians to mean something like rate of change of =
current=20
or voltage.&nbsp; The terms jerk and jolt are therefore preferred for =
rate of=20
change of acceleration.&nbsp; Jerk appears to be the more common of the=20
two.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As its name suggests, jerk is important when evaluating the =
destructive=20
effect of motion on a mechanism or the discomfort caused to passengers =
in a=20
vehicle.&nbsp; The movement of delicate instruments needs to be kept =
within=20
specified limits of jerk as well as acceleration to avoid damage.&nbsp; =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Some space engineers are said to have even gone as far as =
specifying limits=20
on the magnitude of the fourth derivative.&nbsp; There is no universally =

accepted name for the fourth derivative, i.e. the rate of change of =
jerk, The=20
term jounce has been used but it has the drawback of using the same =
initial=20
letter as jerk so it is not clear which symbol to use.&nbsp; Another =
less=20
serious suggestion is snap (symbol s), crackle (symbol c) and pop =
(symbol p) for=20
the 4th, 5th and 6th derivatives respectively.&nbsp; Higher derivatives =
do not=20
yet have names because they do not come up very often.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Since force (F =3D ma) is rate of change of momentum (p, symbol =
clashes=20
with pop) it seems necessary to find terms for higher derivatives of =
force=20
too.&nbsp; So far yank (symbol Y) has been suggested for rate of change =
of=20
force, tug (symbol T) for rate of change of yank, snatch (symbol S) for =
rate of=20
change of tug and shake (symbol Sh) for rate of change of snatch.&nbsp; =
Needless=20
to say, none of these are in any kind of standards, yet.&nbsp; We just =
made them=20
up -Now class, repeat after me. . .</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Momentum equals mass times velocity!<BR>Force equals mass times=20
acceleration!<BR>Yank equals mass times jerk!<BR>Tug equals mass times=20
snap!<BR>Snatch equals mass times crackle!<BR>Shake equals mass times =
pop!!=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Enuf, already....OK let's get as far away from Baez as possible, =
but=20
remember what jounce is, and go on to&nbsp;the next lesson:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We know that "virtual pair" production is real and that enormous =
energies=20
are involved. I won't go into the background of virtual pair production =
other=20
than to say that it is probably a common phenomena of mass when =
accelerated near=20
light speed, BUT that the overall prospect of capturing the annihilation =
energy=20
of "virtual pairs" is hopeless for the "free energy" crowd, because the =
lifetime=20
of pairs&nbsp;in our 3space is far too short to be a viable source of =
free=20
energy, ZPE theories notwithstanding. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>However a special kind of virtual pair&nbsp;is much longer lived : =
the=20
electron-positron pair, but even so, the prospect of capturing positrons =
from=20
the vacuum seems intractable. But Heisenberg's door may be cracked open =
just far=20
enough to admit, not the positron itself but its "wake". i.e. its 6.8 eV =
binding=20
energy with its virtual electron. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This binding energy is but a tiny fraction of the positron or =
electron=20
mass/energy of ~ .5 MeV, or a full GeV if they were to actually =
annihilate in=20
our 3-space, but still&nbsp;6.8 isn't too shabby, more than what one =
gets from=20
hydrogen combustion. The proven Lamb shift&nbsp;may be&nbsp;indicative =
of the=20
ongoing reality of this phenomenon around bare protons.&nbsp; Get =
protons to=20
jounce and you exponentially blast the Lamb shift into a usable =
feature.</DIV>
<DIV>
<P>If a 6.8 eV binding energy photon turns out to be the most "natural" =
gateway=20
to ZPE coherence and that free energy can be captured under certain=20
circumstances, it is a consequence of the positrons and electron having =
just=20
enough time to form a fleeting virtual atom, positronium (Ps) which is=20
anisotropically disrupted by proximity to something locally before =
fading into=20
someone else's 3-space. In other words, if you jounce a proton, you =
might get=20
big check.</P>
<P>OK that's the end of the background material for the jounce =
blaster.</P>
<P>The $64 question is how to you get a proton to jounce so that it not =
only=20
causes a lot of virtual positronium to appear/ disappear (leaving in its =
wake,=20
the juicy 6.8 eV ultraviolet photon for us to enjoy as "free."</P>
<P>First of all, you have to get hydrogen in a form where there are lots =
of free=20
protons that can be jounced around. A good way is to load hydrogen into =
a metal=20
matrix. We don't need palladium for this version, it's way too =
expensive, but=20
nickel or titanium will do fine.</P>
<P>Next how do you create a lot of "jerk"? Remember that jerk is the =
third=20
derivative of position, i.e. the rate of change of acceleration. =
Probably the=20
best way to vary acceleration over time cheaply is the piezoelectric =
ultrasonic=20
transducer.</P>
<P>Once you've got proton jerk (don't let the Jamaicans hear about this) =
the=20
next step, getting the whole shebang to *jounce*&nbsp;is a bit more=20
difficult...or is it?&nbsp;</P>
<P>Stay tuned for the next installment...</P>
<P>Jones</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2D779.97208260--

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Subject: Re: gravity control?
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         TOM   Your making a conclusion. How do you know the guy may not have 
something?  Can you explain that type of technology can any of you?  My guess 
is NO  Even if the guy did understand which it appears he does not,  but I 
will have someone that does review it  

 It appears if you do not understand you knock it to cover up your lack of 
understanding     Unless you can explain it or explain what an actual 
situation may be.   I do not see that happening.       That is all i see on 
vortex people ruled by there books. I see no one attempting to look beyond 
them to any extent.

 The answers are not there your will have no choice but to look beyond them 
if wish to seek the answers. Otherwise you will never find them. It is called 
conducing a situation that you did when you were a child. It is simple it is 
called investigation. 

They programed that ability out of most for a reason. It is called control. 
It is a shame that our society has come to this point. That they will not 
look beyond their nose to any extent. And those that do are vilified for 
there actions because they are attempting to evolve     Ponder that one.     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 20:04:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <151.1c03af87.2b845b8d aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:01:17 EST
Subject: Please tell me where i can buy one of those all knowing crystal balls? 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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            Because it appears everyone out here has one. It must be nice to 
have the ability to make instant judgments without investigating. One of 
those would save me a great deal of time because i have to investigate 
everything before I can make a judgment   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 18 20:12:15 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:10:03 EST
Subject: Re: Undeliverable: Is Jack Carey psychotic?
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     Sir       There is nothing wrong with that. At least you not stuck in a 
rut like many are.  I see where your coming from now and you at least make 
sense. many out here do not want to look past their nose  Are my postings 
coming though or most have probably blocked me out. Can you send out mine if 
they are not coming through. ?     

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 02:05:14 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] The beginnings of a New Age
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     I'M a non tech type and I'm  in the process of creating the business 
side of what may be a major new Tech company That will basically have no 
competition and main stream science basically has no understanding of the 
technical dynamics of what I'm attempting to present to these groups.  I have 
been throwing several new  very complex but simple concept far more cost 
effective concepts at several groups.  To see what they can comprehend but my 
writing skills are only adequate so I'm not perfect.

 What I'm seeing is mostly what I expected and that is when we were childern 
we were very investigative. But that ability has been programed out of us by 
the EDU system and replaced with a situation. Where no investigating 
generally combative judgment calls are the norm. Plus a great deal of totally 
fustration and total disbelief especially in the US 

Where the Corp. controled media pumps fear into us. And is the prime reason 
we had 11,500 gun deaths last year Japan with half our population had 60. 
Something is serious wrong in this country. We have very few children 
graduating from lower class generally one parent familles that do not have 
anything more than just basic skills. They are the majority. Many never 
graduate.       

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 05:58:23 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:57:31 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
In-Reply-To: <004401c2d7b9$531e2000$d6251c43 metrogr.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:

>For that matter, you could avoid all the difficulties of trying to bring a 
>big solar power unit online by just putting a whopping huge nuclear power 
>plant out at the end of the cable--past the geosynch point (it could serve 
>double duty as the anchor weight).  If something goes wrong, it (and 
>everything it is made of) . . .

The danger would be bringing the fuel up to the reactor. I suppose spent 
fuel could be economically dropped into the sun.

Given today's technology I think a giant solar array would be better.

- Jed


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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:41:49 EST
Subject: Re: Come to Minnesota Resend with comnents added!
To: temalloy metro.lakes.com, creation@creationevidence.org,
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In a message dated 2/19/2003 6:25:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

> Carl Baugh www.creationevidence.org

Thank you for the reference to the Creation Evidence Museum.  I support the 
biblical creation theory in conjunction with the an accurate updated 
evolution theory.  Our modern evolution theory is politically biased to the 
Mesopotamia, and completely ignores and represses all archeological evidence 
from the Americas, which show advanced Proto-European Celtic and Indian 
cultures and perhaps biblical cultures in the Americas not derived from the 
African Mesopotamia tribes.   Here is book called Mystic Michigan, Parth 
Three By Mark Jager, Published by Zosma Publications, P.O. Box 73, Cadillac, 
Michigan 49601 (616) 775-1237, which gives credible archeological evidence of 
proto-celtic cultures and Celtic runes in Michigan, which are kept repressed 
from the official academic media. 

I believe that some of the biblical cultures were created by Adam who may 
have traveled back in time by time travel from the future.   And that Adam 
may have been related to cultures on other Planets from E.T.'s who came to 
Earth in the future and the past, so that the Adamic Biblical royal lines, 
may be related to other animal clans from other planets other than the ape, 
especially along the male royal lines, which are generally American Indian 
and Nordic.  If this above creation theory is true, then both the creation 
and evolutionary theories are accurate, and the evolution theory needs to be 
updated to include modern archeological and genetic evidence which is being 
repressed for political and religious reasons to repress the true Adam and 
biblical tribes and cultures.  I also believe that the Bible should be 
updated, to fit modern cultures, and much of the bible has been changed over 
the years for political reasons to hide the true bible cultures and belief 
systems.  The Christian Scientist and the book at spirituality.com by Mary 
Baker Eddy, does a fairly good job of representing modern biblical ideas in 
modern scientific terms. 

I plan to build the indoor greenhouses myself, by building a metal dome 
warehouse or pole barn, with a metal vacuum wall and floor to seal off the 
building, and then use fluorescent lights to give light to the plants.  I 
should be able to save a great deal of money by building the structure 
myself.   I have a friend who said he could build a small prototype 
hydroponic indoor enclosed greenhouse for around 120,000 dollars, and I can 
hire him as a consultant.  I plan to buy the land first, and set up the trust 
and trustees, to allow others to invest if I should need more funds.  And if 
I cannot complete the trust projects, the land and trusts will be around for 
50 years, for future generations to attempt to complete.   

I am a conservative in the sense that I preserve older cultures, and 
traditions as are prevalent in the West or Texas, and I am also a liberal in 
the sense that I believe in integrating modern self-sustaining energy 
technologies into older conservative cultures to make them independent and c
ommon law bible cultures.   Many liberals and conservatives in US politics 
are conservative and liberal for the wrong reasons and issues.  Most US 
liberals are only liberal for the benefit of the enemies of the US, to allow 
immigration from foreign states to occur in the US to destroy traditional US 
cultures, whereas a true liberal would advocate the use of technologies to 
protect US bible or traditional cultures.   Many US conservatives often 
ignore modern technologies and evolution theories to be used against 
traditional biblical cultures to repress them.   A true conservative would be 
liberal enough to use modern technology and to promote accurate modern 
knowledge of evolution to preserve older traditional cultures in the USA.   I 
am in-between the swing and the non-swing cultures, so that neither of those 
cultures represent my culture, which I believe is the true noble Germanic 
culture along the Wagnarian, Bavarian, Greek and Alexandrian royal lines, 
which may have also came from the proto-American Indian cultures. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/19/2003 6:25:47 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Carl Baugh www.creationevidence=
.org</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the reference to the Creation Evidence Museum.&nbsp; I support=
 the biblical creation theory in conjunction with the an accurate updated ev=
olution theory.&nbsp; Our modern evolution theory is politically biased to t=
he Mesopotamia, and completely ignores and represses all archeological evide=
nce from the Americas, which show advanced Proto-European Celtic and Indian=20=
cultures and perhaps biblical cultures in the Americas not derived from the=20=
African Mesopotamia tribes.&nbsp;&nbsp; Here is book called Mystic Michigan,=
 Parth Three By Mark Jager, Published by Zosma Publications, P.O. Box 73, Ca=
dillac, Michigan 49601 (616) 775-1237, which gives credible archeological ev=
idence of proto-celtic cultures and Celtic runes in Michigan, which are kept=
 repressed from the official academic media. <BR>
<BR>
I believe that some of the biblical cultures were created by Adam who may ha=
ve traveled back in time by time travel from the future.&nbsp;&nbsp; And tha=
t Adam may have been related to cultures on other Planets from E.T.'s who ca=
me to Earth in the future and the past, so that the Adamic Biblical royal li=
nes, may be related to other animal clans from other planets other than the=20=
ape, especially along the male royal lines, which are generally American Ind=
ian and Nordic.&nbsp; If this above creation theory is true, then both the c=
reation and evolutionary theories are accurate, and the evolution theory nee=
ds to be updated to include modern archeological and genetic evidence which=20=
is being repressed for political and religious reasons to repress the true A=
dam and biblical tribes and cultures.&nbsp; I also believe that the Bible sh=
ould be updated, to fit modern cultures, and much of the bible has been chan=
ged over the years for political reasons to hide the true bible cultures and=
 belief systems.&nbsp; The Christian Scientist and the book at spirituality.=
com by Mary Baker Eddy, does a fairly good job of representing modern biblic=
al ideas in modern scientific terms. <BR>
<BR>
I plan to build the indoor greenhouses myself, by building a metal dome ware=
house or pole barn, with a metal vacuum wall and floor to seal off the build=
ing, and then use fluorescent lights to give light to the plants.&nbsp; I sh=
ould be able to save a great deal of money by building the structure myself.=
&nbsp;&nbsp; I have a friend who said he could build a small prototype hydro=
ponic indoor enclosed greenhouse for around 120,000 dollars, and I can hire=20=
him as a consultant.&nbsp; I plan to buy the land first, and set up the trus=
t and trustees, to allow others to invest if I should need more funds.&nbsp;=
 And if I cannot complete the trust projects, the land and trusts will be ar=
ound for 50 years, for future generations to attempt to complete.&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <BR>
<BR>
I am a conservative in the sense that I preserve older cultures, and traditi=
ons as are prevalent in the West or Texas, and I am also a liberal in the se=
nse that I believe in integrating modern self-sustaining energy technologies=
 into older conservative cultures to make them independent and common law bi=
ble cultures.&nbsp;&nbsp; Many liberals and conservatives in US politics are=
 conservative and liberal for the wrong reasons and issues.&nbsp; Most US li=
berals are only liberal for the benefit of the enemies of the US, to allow i=
mmigration from foreign states to occur in the US to destroy traditional US=20=
cultures, whereas a true liberal would advocate the use of technologies to p=
rotect US bible or traditional cultures.&nbsp;&nbsp; Many US conservatives o=
ften ignore modern technologies and evolution theories to be used against tr=
aditional biblical cultures to repress them.&nbsp;&nbsp; A true conservative=
 would be liberal enough to use modern technology and to promote accurate mo=
dern knowledge of evolution to preserve older traditional cultures in the US=
A.&nbsp;&nbsp; I am in-between the swing and the non-swing cultures, so that=
 neither of those cultures represent my culture, which I believe is the true=
 noble Germanic culture along the Wagnarian, Bavarian, Greek and Alexandrian=
 royal lines, which may have also came from the proto-American Indian cultur=
es. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_fb.387a847d.2b84ffbd_boundary--

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b8.39c094a4.2b850256 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:52:54 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] radiant energy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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In a message dated 2/19/03 1:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
digging lycos.com writes:


> has anyone done any good experiments with radiant energy or ether 
> technology?  i was checking out some of the stories of nikola tesla's 
> pierce-
> arrow fuelless automobile made in the early 1900's...sounds fascinating!
> dp
> Reply   Finally someone that knows how to ask the correct question  YES   
> We have  and We a new start up CO currently in the planning stages  have 
> demonstrable science fiction level Quantum leap. Totally new power 
> conversion and propulsion related technologies. That Colleges have saw 
> operational understand what Tesla did.   He used a neutrino (radiant 
energy) gathering device that was constructed from some of his 1899 notes. 
That converts neutrinos into usable power as the device that Dr. Steven Greer 
In, DC the head of the discloser project has announced that produces a few 
hundred watts.

Which we can reproduce far more cost effective by using far fewer situations 
from the periodic chart.   In 2500 years it will be radioactive because it is 
collecting radiant energy?  But is a solvable problem. Neutrinos are emitted 
by stars and are the power souce your body converts into electricity that in 
turn provides the means for the chemical reactions to occure 

The core of the planet uses them as its power source, there is trillions of 
them passing trough you right now They also inter act with the iron deposits 
on the planet and in turn create our natural magnetic fields. Tacyons cause 
our gravity. And are emitted by stars also. Tesla understood that. Main 
stream science is clueless as far as I can see. 

 Ether is an overall word for outer space delivered energy. As far as I know 
basically one can even grasp the concept because they cannot think beyond 3 
D. Our conformaty taught EDU. system made sure they would not be able to do 
that. They programed those abilities they had as childern that enabled them 
to out of them for a reason. it is called control. . The technical scientific 
dynamics of technologies on that level are as Cokes process that have not 
been disclosed in 120 years and is the bases for their CO. The same situation 
will be apply in our case. 

That puts Main Science in a Giant Catch 22 because they will have to figure 
the Tech. aspects out for themselves as we did if they want to know. WE will 
be in the manuf. of technology business and are not required to teach main 
stream anything. Plus There is a fat chance that they will ever be able to 
figure out anything. Because there were wired totally backwards for that to 
happen. 

They were pumped full of restrictive theory when they should have been taught 
invention first thinking instead and theory last. Which is the thinking Tesla 
and Faraday used   Now you should have some idea. If I was saying this a few 
hundred years ago they would have burned me at the stake. Which is what main 
stream science and many Corp's want to do now. Because i make total fools out 
them     


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/19/0=
3 1:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, digging lycos.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">has anyone done any good experi=
ments with radiant energy or ether <BR>
technology?&nbsp; i was checking out some of the stories of nikola tesla's p=
ierce-<BR>
arrow fuelless automobile made in the early 1900's...sounds fascinating!<BR>
dp<BR>
Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; Finally someone that knows how to ask the correct question=
&nbsp; YES&nbsp;&nbsp; We have&nbsp; and We a new start up CO currently in t=
he planning stages&nbsp; have demonstrable science fiction level Quantum lea=
p. Totally new power conversion and propulsion related technologies. That Co=
lleges have saw operational understand what Tesla did.&nbsp;&nbsp;</BLOCKQUO=
TE> He used a neutrino (radiant energy) gathering device that was constructe=
d from some of his 1899 notes. That converts neutrinos into usable power as=20=
the device that Dr. Steven Greer In, DC the head of the discloser project ha=
s announced that produces a few hundred watts.<BR>
<BR>
Which we can reproduce far more cost effective by using far fewer situations=
 from the periodic chart.&nbsp;&nbsp; In 2500 years it will be radioactive b=
ecause it is collecting radiant energy?&nbsp; But is a solvable problem. Neu=
trinos are emitted by stars and are the power souce your body converts into=20=
electricity that in turn provides the means for the chemical reactions to oc=
cure <BR>
<BR>
The core of the planet uses them as its power source, there is trillions of=20=
them passing trough you right now They also inter act with the iron deposits=
 on the planet and in turn create our natural magnetic fields. Tacyons cause=
 our gravity. And are emitted by stars also. Tesla understood that. Main str=
eam science is clueless as far as I can see. <BR>
<BR>
 Ether is an overall word for outer space delivered energy. As far as I know=
 basically one can even grasp the concept because they cannot think beyond 3=
 D. Our conformaty taught EDU. system made sure they would not be able to do=
 that. They programed those abilities they had as childern that enabled them=
 to out of them for a reason. it is called control. . The technical scientif=
ic dynamics of technologies on that level are as Cokes process that have not=
 been disclosed in 120 years and is the bases for their CO. The same situati=
on will be apply in our case. <BR>
<BR>
That puts Main Science in a Giant Catch 22 because they will have to figure=20=
the Tech. aspects out for themselves as we did if they want to know. WE will=
 be in the manuf. of technology business and are not required to teach main=20=
stream anything. Plus There is a fat chance that they will ever be able to f=
igure out anything. Because there were wired totally backwards for that to h=
appen. <BR>
<BR>
They were pumped full of restrictive theory when they should have been taugh=
t invention first thinking instead and theory last. Which is the thinking Te=
sla and Faraday used&nbsp;&nbsp; Now you should have some idea. If I was say=
ing this a few hundred years ago they would have burned me at the stake. Whi=
ch is what main stream science and many Corp's want to do now. Because i mak=
e total fools out them&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <166.1c005b6b.2b850931 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:22:09 EST
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] Divine Certainty By Carl Baugh at http://www.creationeviden...
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I support the biblical creation theory in conjunction with the an accurate=20
updated evolution theory.=A0 Our modern evolution theory is politically bias=
ed=20
to the Mesopotamia, and completely ignores and represses all archeological=20
evidence from the Americas, which show advanced Proto-European Celtic and=20
Indian cultures and perhaps biblical cultures in the Americas not derived=20
from the African Mesopotamia tribes.=A0=A0 Here is book called Mystic Michig=
an,=20
Parth Three By Mark Jager, Published by Zosma Publications, P.O. Box 73,=20
Cadillac, Michigan 49601 (616) 775-1237, which gives credible archeological=20
evidence of proto-celtic cultures and Celtic runes in Michigan, which are=20
kept repressed from the official academic media.=20

I believe that some of the biblical cultures were created by Adam who may=20
have traveled back in time by time travel from the future.=A0=A0 And that Ad=
am=20
may have been related to cultures on other Planets from E.T.'s who came to=20
Earth in the future and the past, so that the Adamic Biblical royal lines,=20
may be related to other animal clans from other planets other than the ape,=20
especially along the male royal lines, which are generally American Indian=20
and Nordic.=A0 If this above creation theory is true, then both the creation=
=20
and evolutionary theories are accurate, and the evolution theory needs to be=
=20
updated to include modern archeological and genetic evidence which is being=20
repressed for political and religious reasons to repress the true Adam and=20
biblical tribes and cultures.=A0 I also believe that the Bible should be=20
updated, to fit modern cultures, and much of the bible has been changed over=
=20
the years for political reasons to hide the true bible cultures and belief=20
systems.=A0 The Christian Scientist and the book at spirituality.com by Mary=
=20
Baker Eddy, does a fairly good job of representing modern biblical ideas in=20
modern scientific terms.=20

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I support the biblical creation theory in conjunction=20=
with the an accurate updated evolution theory.=A0 Our modern evolution theor=
y is politically biased to the Mesopotamia, and completely ignores and repre=
sses all archeological evidence from the Americas, which show advanced Proto=
-European Celtic and Indian cultures and perhaps biblical cultures in the Am=
ericas not derived from the African Mesopotamia tribes.=A0=A0 Here is book c=
alled Mystic Michigan, Parth Three By Mark Jager, Published by Zosma Publica=
tions, P.O. Box 73, Cadillac, Michigan 49601 (616) 775-1237, which gives cre=
dible archeological evidence of proto-celtic cultures and Celtic runes in Mi=
chigan, which are kept repressed from the official academic media. <BR>
<BR>
I believe that some of the biblical cultures were created by Adam who may ha=
ve traveled back in time by time travel from the future.=A0=A0 And that Adam=
 may have been related to cultures on other Planets from E.T.'s who came to=20=
Earth in the future and the past, so that the Adamic Biblical royal lines, m=
ay be related to other animal clans from other planets other than the ape, e=
specially along the male royal lines, which are generally American Indian an=
d Nordic.=A0 If this above creation theory is true, then both the creation a=
nd evolutionary theories are accurate, and the evolution theory needs to be=20=
updated to include modern archeological and genetic evidence which is being=20=
repressed for political and religious reasons to repress the true Adam and b=
iblical tribes and cultures.=A0 I also believe that the Bible should be upda=
ted, to fit modern cultures, and much of the bible has been changed over the=
 years for political reasons to hide the true bible cultures and belief syst=
ems.=A0 The Christian Scientist and the book at spirituality.com by Mary Bak=
er Eddy, does a fairly good job of representing modern biblical ideas in mod=
ern scientific terms. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 08:38:21 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <6b.a76e804.2b850c2e aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:34:54 EST
Subject: ERIC Kreig are you ever going to learn to keep your mouth shut. 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com
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In a message dated 2/19/03 7:53:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
eric voicenet.com writes:


> I saw a magician show where there were several tricks I could not 
> explain
               ERIC      You left yourself wide open and made a complete 
total fool out yourself again won't you ever learn.  You did not have explain 
those tricks in regard to your job.  The explanation of electricity is 
something Your supposed to know and is what you are paid. For.  Tom Meloy ? 
In Minn is interested in becoming involved I first talked to him 18 months 
ago. and he seen me on vortex. 

He described the your idiotic water heater testing idea that an out of touch 
with reality  Ph.D. came up with. Sure it is a lode bank  So are simple banks 
of lights. Which is what you described as what you would have powered up for 
a test at your place That has to be  aself contained situation 

. Not a water heater But to do testing here is when i heard the water heater 
idea  out  of  you which there was no reason for plus we did not have one and 
finally said what ever. But you would have to provide it.     Because we show 
reral world situations   Like operating machinery     And you still did not 
ask someone in the area to test. But you and the guy in detroit who had saw a 
public demo  could generate mountains of mail. for 15 months.  

 The water heater idea  Talk about making it totally unnecessary complicated 
is an understatement     No wonder main stream science is basically worthless 
as far as accomplishing anything they are clueless what simple is   And God 
forbid if you expect them to use simple deductive reasoning  common sense.  I 
have seen basically zero from you.  Our forefathers would have never moved 
off square one with that type of counter productive  moronic thinking  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/19/0=
3 7:53:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I saw a magician show where the=
re were several tricks I could not <BR>
explain</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; ERIC&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You left yourself wide open and=20=
made a complete total fool out yourself again won't you ever learn.&nbsp; Yo=
u did not have explain those tricks in regard to your job.&nbsp; The explana=
tion of electricity is something Your supposed to know and is what you are p=
aid. For.&nbsp; Tom Meloy ? In Minn is interested in becoming involved I fir=
st talked to him 18 months ago. and he seen me on vortex. <BR>
<BR>
He described the your idiotic water heater testing idea that an out of touch=
 with reality&nbsp; Ph.D. came up with. Sure it is a lode bank&nbsp; So are=20=
simple banks of lights. Which is what you described as what you would have p=
owered up for a test at your place That has to be&nbsp; aself contained situ=
ation <BR>
<BR>
. Not a water heater But to do testing here is when i heard the water heater=
 idea&nbsp; out&nbsp; of&nbsp; you which there was no reason for plus we did=
 not have one and finally said what ever. But you would have to provide it.&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Because we show reral world situations&nbsp;&nbsp; L=
ike operating machinery&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And you still did not ask so=
meone in the area to test. But you and the guy in detroit who had saw a publ=
ic demo&nbsp; could generate mountains of mail. for 15 months.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 The water heater idea&nbsp; Talk about making it totally unnecessary compli=
cated is an understatement&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No wonder main stream sci=
ence is basically worthless as far as accomplishing anything they are cluele=
ss what simple is&nbsp;&nbsp; And God forbid if you expect them to use simpl=
e deductive reasoning&nbsp; common sense.&nbsp; I have seen basically zero f=
rom you.&nbsp; Our forefathers would have never moved off square one with th=
at type of counter productive&nbsp; moronic thinking&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 08:43:13 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:40:36 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] Divine Certainty By Carl Baugh at
  http://www.creationeviden...
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Dear Baron,

This is severely off-topic. Please refrain from posting such messages on 
Vortex. You can use vortexB-L eskimo.com.

If you post any more messages of this nature, I will add you to my killfile 
along with JCarey. Your message will no longer bother me, but they will 
bother other people here.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 08:56:57 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:54:33 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030219085528.00a8b6f0 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <004401c2d7b9$531e2000$d6251c43 metrogr.org>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030218160319.00af0370 pop.mindspring.com>
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I wrote:

>The danger would be bringing the fuel up to the reactor. I suppose spent 
>fuel could be economically dropped into the sun.

I realize that unused nuclear plant fuel is not very dangerous. Still, at 
least in the early decades, I expect people would prefer to see solar 
panels being lifted over their heads. In a mishap, an elevator car might 
fall off the track hundreds of km above ground, plunge to earth, and burn up.

Solar panels are not very cost effective inside the atmosphere but I 
believe they are very cost effective in near-earth space. When a space 
elevator is first built, it will still be extremely expensive to lift mass 
into space. ($100 per kg.) Present-day nuclear reactors probably weigh more 
per watt of output than solar panels. Even with reduced shielding they 
would be pretty heavy, I expect.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 09:56:52 2003
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Message-ID: <20030219175009.18407.qmail web40409.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:50:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and tornados.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
> 
> The aerodynamic properties are only significant when the orientation of
> the
> blade is maintained with respect to the wind.  Once a blade breaks free
> this doe not happen.

Show me a straght line wind tornado.  

> high aspect ratio and precise mass balance.  Gyration of low aspect
> blades is likely to be about the long axis, thus having the effect of 
> slowing its descent speed.

I stand corrected here.  However. If axial gyration slows the decent will
it not also cause aabnormally long suspension, causing the blade to fall
much further from the event then ordinary debris? 

> Blades are made to be as light as possible - carbon composite blades,
> far less dense than wood, may become the standard.

Carbon fiber should already be the standard.  but think of this.  Light
as possible still means several tons.  Also carbon fiber composits are
extreemly rigid.  They actually make many metals look silly.  and brick
walls..  and concrete storm shelters...

You can tell I get excited about this issue.  There is good reason.

> >When you put a bunch of them in one spot you concentrate the potential
> >damage.
> 
> 
> Yes, but the potetntial damage is then only to the wind farm, and will
> end up reflected in the wind farm insurance.

You haven't been listening have you?.  Cyclonic storms tend to carry
debris.  This means the blades will "ride the storm" so to speak, just
like any other piece of debris.  Just like the pickup the plunged into an
arlington home in 2000 some 2 miles away from the storm track. 
Centrating alot of windmills in one place you give one storm many more
blades to tare off and you give it the tools it needs to hack off other
blades that would may not have otherwise broken free.  

It is a chain reaction that I am trying to avoid here.

Its liek a trafic accident.  If you dial your cell ohone behind the wheel
and slam into a slower moving  car you wreck your car and one other car. 
If you do the same thing in rush hour trafic.  you cause a seven car
pileup,  several coloteral colisions due to the trafic backup and a
couple more rubbernecker wrecks.  

The problem is NOT the initial storm damage but the colateral debris
damage that is amplified by proximity.  One blade rips off and hacks a
tower in half...  Now there are 3 blades and a big boomerang.  then two
more towers are hit and you have 7 blades and a couple of boomerangs...  


> >That is why farmer john puts his grain elevators in several
> >different locations.  Usually in a north south running line.  That way
> >the storm only takes out one of them.  If you cluster them you are
> simply
> >asking for it.  Debris from damaged windmills will cause colateral
> damage
> >and more debris.  Its a chain reaction.
> >
> >Put up the windmills.  just don't cluster them.  Besides they will be
> >more efficent if you space them out.  make a large number of
> individual
> >sites.  Thus avoiding the possibility of a giant edward sisorhands
> >nightmere falling onto a nearby municipality.



> Who is propposing wind farms that close to communities???  The best
> locations appear to me to be offshore and on mountain tops.

Anyone who proposes them in Texas.  Give yourself a 30 mile safety
radious and go find a map of Texas.  Hell give yourself a 10 mile radious

Also...  You called me an alarmest! I supose that in this genre I am.
After all Texas is my backyard.  I like wind, honest,  I would have a
couple of them set up in the field at the end of my street if only I
owned the land.   



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 10:09:58 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:05:12 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] HyOx being presented to DOE
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        aleshan ford.com, fuchs@ttc-usa.com
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         murdoch knows the right questions to ask      GM or other hydrogen 
situations do not want to talk about the safety of hydrogen storage aspects  
murdoch     they blow you off when  that type of questing comes up      
HYDROGEN   in the  present forms they are looking at are not i replete not 
feasable   Correct Carl Speck  Delphi's chief scientist ?

 Carl your a visionary look into the future     It is time for GM to say they 
basically do not have clue one.  And swallow their ego's  Wayne  instructed 
you how to make that now obsolete  process you were looking at backwards 
function for free  To save you a great deal of time and money if you were 
going to pursue it,  that was called a good faith jester. Millions of dollars 
of free infomation  We saw no good faith jester in return from GM 

   Because of that  I'm going to keep making fools out of them on the 
Internet.  Carl many are starting to listen. Wait until we go public with 
situations you know first hand Carl. Science cannot explain then everyone 
will listen. GM has an oblication to be responsible to the public. They are 
not God they only think they are. 

It is not my fought you have basically worthless Eng. working for you.  Maybe 
they should dump the ones they have now and do it the way Billy Durant, CS 
MOTT  And Henry Ford did and employ basically self taught farm boy types that 
can actually solve problems using only there abilities and not their  EDU.  
Or deal with us. Then you could dump 95% of the 5400 Eng. Delphi has. Look at 
how much that would save the company.    

  GM  filed complaints with the state against me along with the rest. When I 
went to the point of questioning their giant ego's  and 95%  it had be to 
them that put the pressure on Sterling Publications in London not to publish. 
  After they called me and  spoke with me for 3 hours. People this is the 
real world not some delusion you think I'm having   only a complete idiot who 
does not investigate  would make a call like that as some total moron Ph.D. 
did on Vortex     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:06:28 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:02:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and
 tornados.
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At 9:50 AM 2/19/3, Charles Ford wrote:

>> Yes, but the potetntial damage is then only to the wind farm, and will
>> end up reflected in the wind farm insurance.
>
>You haven't been listening have you?.


Ditto.  If what you say is true then insurance cost will prohibit the
development of wind farms.  Proof of principle lies in data, not
speculation.

Further, I blieve the best locations will prove to be offshore and on
mountain ridges in Alaska, which should alleviate some of your worries.


>Cyclonic storms tend to carry
>debris.  This means the blades will "ride the storm" so to speak, just
>like any other piece of debris.  Just like the pickup the plunged into an
>arlington home in 2000 some 2 miles away from the storm track.
>Centrating alot of windmills in one place you give one storm many more
>blades to tare off and you give it the tools it needs to hack off other
>blades that would may not have otherwise broken free.
>
>It is a chain reaction that I am trying to avoid here.


Dang!  All that trouble Iraq and DPRK have gone to to refine uranium when
all they had to do is build windmills here!

Gee, now that the subject has been aired, it actually makes some sense.  If
Iraq and DPRK were given sizeable wind farm monopolies here our problems
with them might significantly diminish!  8^)

More to the point though, the geometry is not right to sustain a chain
reaction in a tornado.  The tornado itself is required to sustain the
reaction, but its area is too small, so the most that can happen is an
effect asymptotic to a comparatively small amount of suspended material
while the tornado is actually in the wind farm.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:23:17 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Jack Carey is on the wrong list?
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It just occurred to me one reason why so many of us have stopped reading or
at least responding to Jack Carey.  One reason in addition to continually
breaking multiple list rules that is, including cross posting and civility
rules.  He is on the wrong list!  Vortex-l is Bill Beaty's list for serious
scientific discussion of anomalous science and experimental data and
techniques for obtaining such, or scientific theories explaining such.
Since Jack has no serious math or science background at all, his posts are
marginally relevant here at best.  Further, Jack states he is emperically
oriented, prefering experiment over theory.  Bill Beaty has created a list
for just such folks: experimentally inclined amateurs.  It is called
freenrg-l eskimo.com.

Jack might have much better luck selling his wares there too.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:27:41 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:24:20 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Ditto

Just added Carey to my filter list, thanks for reminding me.

Filters work, but they do slow mail processing down on your machine if you accumulate a bunch of them. I already have a fine collection to help filter out some spam, so I don't appreciate having to add another one. I wish he'd just give up and leave.

- Rick

>Dear Baron,
>
>This is severely off-topic. Please refrain from posting such messages on Vortex. You can use vortexB-L eskimo.com.
>
>If you post any more messages of this nature, I will add you to my killfile along with JCarey. Your message will no longer bother me, but they will bother other people here.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:43:52 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:40:39 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Nuclear powered military drone aircraft planned
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This is the stupidest idea I have read in years:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993406

Military drone aircraft are very useful, but vulnerable. They have been 
shot down in disproportionate numbers. As this article points out, "an 
anti-aircraft gunner [would] in effect be detonating a dirty bomb."

Perhaps it would be thinkable to use fission drones for high altitude 
broadcasts. Fission thermoelectric generators have survived rocket 
explosions. But you wouldn't want to drop one into the hands of the Al Qaeda!

This administration has talked loosely and irresponsibly about using 
nuclear weapons in Iraq and elsewhere. That, plus the bellicose North 
Koreans have brought the world is closer to nuclear war than it has been in 
a long time. Regardless of one's views of the war, I hope that technically 
inclined, knowledgeable people in power will put a stop to this talk about 
fission powered drones and tactical nuclear weapons.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:45:27 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Fwd: SEAS POWER, INC ANNOUNCES: A explainatio...
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In a message dated 2/19/03 1:28:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
skaar ns.sympatico.ca writes:


> capacitors   What about them   ?   We are in the process of making a new  
> generation of them  light years beyond anything   They have been made 
> before and used in ""Sound boom""  creating experiments  up to 20 years ago 
>  THE sound  booms were  in the papers and on the news.here  in the mid 80's 
>   They are part of the explosion that creates the boom. That we are looking 
> at to open up low producing oil wells  and cause rock shale in mines to 
> turn to dust.  And not effect say the gold or diamonds.   I do not think 
> our Tech's would be to interested in the Capacitors on the sites you 
> refered me to.  Unless they are looking for good laugh. Please Impress me 
> with some serious technology not tinker toys      Welcome to the 23 rd 
> century of Capacitors 


--part1_4d.2c00dea6.2b8537bf_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/19/0=
3 1:28:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, skaar ns.sympatico.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">capacitors&nbsp;&nbsp; What abo=
ut them&nbsp;&nbsp; ?&nbsp;&nbsp; We are in the process of making a new&nbsp=
; generation of them&nbsp; light years beyond anything&nbsp;&nbsp; They have=
 been made before and used in ""Sound boom""&nbsp; creating experiments&nbsp=
; up to 20 years ago&nbsp; THE sound&nbsp; booms were&nbsp; in the papers an=
d on the news.here&nbsp; in the mid 80's&nbsp;&nbsp; They are part of the ex=
plosion that creates the boom. That we are looking at to open up low produci=
ng oil wells&nbsp; and cause rock shale in mines to turn to dust.&nbsp; And=20=
not effect say the gold or diamonds.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not think our Tech's w=
ould be to interested in the Capacitors on the sites you refered me to.&nbsp=
; Unless they are looking for good laugh. Please Impress me with some seriou=
s technology not tinker toys&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Welcome to the 23=
 rd century of Capacitors </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:51:14 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and tornados.
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:00:56 -0500
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Hi Charles:

You Write:
>Anyone who proposes them in Texas.  Give yourself a 30 mile safety
>radious and go find a map of Texas.  Hell give yourself a 10 mile radious
>Also...  You called me an alarmest! I supose that in this genre I am.
>After all Texas is my backyard. <snip>

NOT IN MY BACKYARD! 

Correct me if I'm mistaken here, but weren't you lambasting
the Californians for just this sort of position during the
last (Enron Engineered) energy crisis?

You Texans are all alike, a bunch of radical left wing
liberal environmentalists. :^)

All trolling aside, despite the very real dangers of flooding etc
we have hydroelectric dams. Why is this any different?

BTW, if weather conditions are so bad that these towers
are being toppled like tinkertoys, I suspect that the
damage caused by the flying bits will represent only a
small fraction of the overall damage done by everything
else being uprooted. 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 11:55:36 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:51:00 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear powered military drone aircraft planned
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To be fair, I should have made it clear these people are not thinking of 
flying a uranium powered TEG or anything like that. That would REALLY be 
stupid! They are looking at an innovative hafnium - X-ray gadget. Still, it 
would be radioactive, so I vote no.

The only legitimate military uses for nuclear power in today's world is:

1. Marine engines (submarines, aircraft carriers).

2. Perhaps . . . to synthesize chemical fuel in the field, for aircraft and 
other vehicles. That was proposed back in the 1950s. I think they were 
looking into hydrogen powered aircraft.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:03:37 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:59:45 EST
Subject: : Horace you need to wake up 
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            You people need to wake up  and smell the coffee or keep snoozing 
I do not care and conduct some investigating if you want to be aware of what 
now is possible     Because I'm bringing the new science to light your 
science is basically obsolete. Plus the vast majority of physics has been 
rewritten. But will not be published because visual demos will be provided 
that will prove new evolutionary theories. WE will leave you in the cold to 
fend for yourself if you wish in what I call the dark foreboding sea of 
ignorance.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:12:16 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:07:25 EST
Subject: ONE MORE POINT HORACE 
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             I do not need math I have demonstrable technology I would say 
none of you can explain that makes me the creator of a new scientific comm. 
that replaces yours THe new that finally works  one will be invention based 
not theory based.  That thinking will be totally obsolete   Put that one in 
your pipe and smoke it. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:12:47 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: "virtual c"
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At 6:14 PM 2/18/3, Jones Beene wrote:

>However a special kind of virtual pair is much longer lived : the
>electron-positron pair, but even so, the prospect of capturing positrons
>from the vacuum seems intractable. But Heisenberg's door may be cracked
>open just far enough to admit, not the positron itself but its "wake".
>i.e. its 6.8 eV binding energy with its virtual electron.


Capturing particles from spontaneous pair production simply requires a
large enough potential gradient to keep most of them apart.  This means
that the potential from the gradient over the interval of maximum
separation for most pairs is greater than the potential between the pairs
at that separation.  Unfortunately, this is a very large gradient, but at
least that is the "simple" part of the problem.

Another part of the problem, or actually maybe another way to view the
problem, might be attempting to increase the kinetic energy borrowed during
the pair production.  Energy in addition to the mass of the pair must be
borrowed for the pair to exist. Otherwise there is no separation interval,
which has its own associated potential energy, and pair annihilation is
instantaneous.


>Next how do you create a lot of "jerk"? Remember that jerk is the third
>derivative of position, i.e. the rate of change of acceleration. Probably
>the best way to vary acceleration over time cheaply is the piezoelectric
>ultrasonic transducer.


Perhaps one way is to create a massive A field and let it collapse.  There
is no energy in an A field, so it should be able to collapse very fast.  It
may even be able to experience jerk jerk.   However, if an A field does
collapse then it will generate a large gradient E =  A/@t.  If A can
experience a large jerk jerk, then certainly the associated E can
experience jerk acceleration, which is quite a jerk indeed.


The problem with this approach is that there is no known way to
disassociate a stand-alone A field with a generating B field coil.  An
example of such a coil is a current carrying tight small spiral wire coil
wrapped around a torus.  Outside the tight spiral there is no B, and inside
the torus is only A.

The rate of change of A is limited by the coupling of some necessary B and
current to the A field.

Perhaps a scanning A field could be drived, say as superpositioned output
from multiple A producing toroids.  Scanning beam spots can readily exceed
c, so perhaps a scanning field A "beam" can do the same.  The problem is, a
moving A field does not generate an E =  A/@t.  I have never quite fully
understood this.

Enough free associating for now...

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:18:02 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Space Tether power engineering
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:31:30 -0500
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Hi.

What's the downside of space tethers???

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast08sep97_1.htm

///////////////
"The theoretical models were not accurate on tether," Stone
said, "and the currents were higher than we expected."
Specifically, the models require that the voltage be 10 times
greater to collect a current than what was observed. Before the
flight, the models predicted that the tether would produce 0.5
amp (0.5 A) under ideal conditions. Instead, it produced more
than 1 amp under less than ideal conditions.

"The models were a factor of two or three off because they
don't include the effects of orbital motion through the plasma
(electrified gas) of the ionosphere," Stone said. While motion
of a conductor through the magnetic field is crucial (it's also
how a generator in a power plant works), motion through the
electrons in space was thought to be a miniscule effect. The
Shuttle moves at 7.7 km/s (17,500 mph) while the electrons move
at 200 km/s (115,000 mph).
/////////////////

As far as I can tell, besides the potential for destructive
surges of current when the shuttle passes through ion rich
areas, the only difficulty would be charging of the ships
body if the ion sprayer failed. This problem was addressed
on the Space Station when it was realized that the nifty
new 400V system which replaced the "antiquated" 12V system
proved a real hazzard for EVA. The whole capacity of the
station w/ respect to space would charge to 400V, zapping
astronauts like bugs on a hot summers day. They use a pair
of ionizers, one as backup. If both fail, it's a choice
between EVA and power :^(

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:19:22 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <6.a984621.2b853f83 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:13:55 EST
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] Divine Certainty By Carl Baugh at http://www.creationeviden...
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              Jed is avoiding me he makes an offer  to buy technology  and 
does not respond when i have one to sell him. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:25:10 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk
  management and tornados.
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Charles Ford wrote:

>The problem is NOT the initial storm damage but the colateral debris
>damage that is amplified by proximity.  One blade rips off and hacks a
>tower in half...  Now there are 3 blades and a big boomerang.  then two
>more towers are hit and you have 7 blades and a couple of boomerangs...

Thousands of wind farms have been in use all over the world, in the 
windiest places people can find. Hundreds of towers are in place in Texas. 
They are nearly always grouped together, because the wind blows in 
restricted, predictable places. So far, to the best of my knowledge, the 
problem Ford describes has never occurred, so it is safe to say it cannot 
occur. Or if it can, it is much less likely than the accidents which plague 
other large-scale energy systems, such as pipeline breaks, coal-car 
derailments, mine accidents, and self-destructing nuclear plants.

It is impossible to eliminate all risks. There are no perfectly safe energy 
systems. There are always trade-offs between safety, cost, environmental 
cleanliness and other factors. Wind is better than competing systems in 
some important ways, and not as good in other ways. As for safety and 
reliability, per kWh of production wind has proven safer than alternatives. 
A potential, hypothetical danger from a giant tornado cannot be compared to 
actual, here-and-now dangers from oil spills and the like. As for 
reliability, so far, 1 in 20 U.S. nuclear plants has self-destructed, 
causing massive damage, hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in 
expense, and forced retirement in most cases. If 1 in 20 wind turbines blew 
apart in tornados, or 1 or 20 coal-fired generators collapsed decades 
before planned retirement, Congress would pass a law banning wind and coal. 
Intense lobbying by the nuclear industry has prevented that, but in a sane 
free-enterprise system these machines would not be allowed.

It may be that CANDU reactors or some other design is less likely to self 
destruct, or cheaper to fix in the event of an accident. I do not know 
enough about the CANDU to comment on this. There is no question you can 
make reactors even less reliable than standard U.S. ones. Russian reactors 
are much worse. So far, two out of two breeder reactors have failed 
catastrophically in the first few days of operation, costing billions of 
dollars. They are probably the worst engineering fiascoes in history, 
exceeding even the collapse of the Quebec Bridge (twice! 1907, 1916) and 
the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge (1940).

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 12:36:42 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Bad experiment?
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This article may be poorly written?  This can NOT be the experiment in the
subject article?  Photons carry momentum and this experiment seems to
suggest photons in a light beam carry no momentum.  This is crazy.

The author of this news flash fails to distinguish between mass and rest mass.

In addition to the above concerns, the photon carries or at least deposits
"mass" in proportion to its energy which is permanently added to the
absorbing body in the form of relativistic mass change due to the
incremental change in velocity of the absorbing body.


At 2:30 PM 2/19/3, physnews aip.org wrote:
>PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
>The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
>Number 625 February 19, 2003   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James
>Riordon

>A NEW LIMIT ON PHOTON MASS, less than 10^-51 grams or 7 x 10^-19 electron
>volts, has been established by an experiment in which light is aimed at a
>sensitive torsion balance; if light had mass, the rotating balance would
>suffer an additional tiny torque.  This represents a 20-fold improvement
>over previous limits on photon mass.  Photon mass is expected to be zero by
>most physicists, but this is an assumption which must be checked
>experimentally.  A nonzero mass would make trouble for special relativity,
>Maxwell's equations, and for Coulomb's inverse-square law for electrical
>attraction.   The work was carried out by Jun Luo and his colleagues at
>Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan, China
>(junluo mail.hust.edu.cn, 86-27-8755-6653).  They have also carried out a
>measurement of the universal gravitational constant G (Physical Review D, 15
>February 1999) and are currently measuring the force of gravity at the
>sub-millimeter range (a departure from Newton's inverse-square law might
>suggest the existence of extra spatial dimensions) and are studying the
>Casimir force, a quantum effect in which nearby parallel plates are drawn
>together.  (Luo et al., Physical Review Letters, upcoming article, probably
>28 Feb)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 13:14:10 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:06:18 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <8as75v09hkchi8oaa9qfqcedt3nt1grmaj 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:32:00 -0900:
Hi,

>This article may be poorly written?  This can NOT be the experiment in the
>subject article?  Photons carry momentum and this experiment seems to
>suggest photons in a light beam carry no momentum.  This is crazy.
>
>The author of this news flash fails to distinguish between mass and rest mass.
[snip]

>>A NEW LIMIT ON PHOTON MASS, less than 10^-51 grams or 7 x 10^-19 electron
>>volts, has been established by an experiment in which light is aimed at a
>>sensitive torsion balance; if light had mass, the rotating balance would
>>suffer an additional tiny torque.  
            ^^^^^^^^^^

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 14:16:42 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <9.a999ae6.2b855ae7 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:10:47 EST
Subject: Re: Reprt on your Manuscript
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In a message dated 2/18/03 7:37:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

<<    I'm gave Neil in Florida  a strong dose of Jack  and our Tech's will  >>

I thought I removed Niel's ID from the fwd.  I'll handel this on my own.


Frank  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 14:29:25 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Accelerated Solenoid  Field Reduction?
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:25:48 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 18 Feb 2003 05:51:13 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>>I don't think it will make any difference if the cell is rotated along
>>with the coil (no relative motion). Of course if the cell doesn't rotate,
>>then you have the makings of a homopolar generator, and there should be
>>some change in current (increase or decrease depending on the direction of
>>rotation).
>
>
>
>Such an increase/decrease in current should only occur if there is a net
>charge on the coil, true?  

Not what I meant.

>I got the (possibly wrong) impression we are
>talking about a coil being rotated on its major axis.

I believe that was the intent. If the cell doesn't rotate, then it has to have sliding contacts. If the negative contact is not at exactly the same radius as the positive contact, then the difference has the same topology as a homopolar generator, as it is rotating in a magnetic field (the coil itself plays no essential role).
If the radii are identical, then the effect cancels out and there would be no net effect.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 14:33:08 2003
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From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com><5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0@pop.mindspring.com><5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420@pop.mindspring.com><5.1.0.14.2.20030218160319.00af0370@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030219085528.00a8b6f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
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> Jeff Kooistra wrote:
>
> >For that matter, you could avoid all the difficulties of trying to bring
a
> >big solar power unit online by just putting a whopping huge nuclear power
> >plant out at the end of the cable--

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> The danger would be bringing the fuel up to the reactor. I suppose spent
> fuel could be economically dropped into the sun.

Any technology advanced enough to build a space tether would also mine the
asteroids for radioactives.  And dropping spent fuel into the sun is
expensive--you have to change too much delta-vee!

At any rate, I was only half-serious--sunlight is, after all, free.

kooistra








>
> Given today's technology I think a giant solar array would be better.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 14:35:58 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:19:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and tornados.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
> More to the point though, the geometry is not right to sustain a chain
> reaction in a tornado.  The tornado itself is required to sustain the
> reaction, but its area is too small, so the most that can happen is an
> effect asymptotic to a comparatively small amount of suspended material
> while the tornado is actually in the wind farm.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
 
I will call your attention to soem historical storm events as you have
varified that you simply have no idea of the size of one of these things.
Also there seems to be an asumption that the air around the funnel is
calm.  This is not so.  The sorounding air flows rapidly toward the
funnel.  SO the debris that you see in the funnel is gathered brom a much
wider aria then simply the contact surface. Also the funnel effects a
much larger corssection as you get away form the surface.  (The sape is
why they call them funnels) 

The contact surface of the Fort Worth Y2K (high F2 or low F3) event was
about 600 feet (funnel diameter at the ground) and the track was about 3
miles   OKC 1999 F5 was almost a mile and laid multiple tracks totaling
67 miles.   


"but its area is too small"
http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/3may99/norge25a.jpg
http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/3may99/minco01.jpg


http://www.dallassky.com/Specia2.jpg  

In the forefront is the 8 story Malloc Tower This building was enveloped
by the tornado resulting in the removal of the exterior walls and
windows.  The parkinglot was not in the direct path of the funnel.  This
debris is mostely form aobut 2000 feet west of this location.  The taller
structure in the rear is the 37 story Bank One building know known now
and lovelingly as "The Leanign Tower of Plywood" Notice the vilible bend
in the center of the structure.
   http://www.dallassky.com/Specia4.jpg

The sad thing is that I am not against windmils, and even properly laid
out wind farms.  It is the clusters that represent a problem.  Even sader
is that I am not only exposing a potential problem but also offering you
the solution. It is a solution that will cost only a moments
consideration when acquireing locations for your windmils.

If you want to know what to expect in Texas ask a Texan. 

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 14:40:33 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:35:56 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:31:42 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>It would be reduced by a huge factor by a space elevator. I thought that 
>space elevators were centuries away, but I was surprised to learn that 
>recent advances in materials may make them possible even today. See:
[snip]
Space elevators are a pointless waste of money if you have anti-gravity technology. Not to mention that they are incredibly dangerous. I suggest you read Red/Green/Blue Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson.
The individual parts of a space elevator must all travel at the same angular velocity, and hence are not "in orbit". That means that such a device is never inherently stable. It is kept in place by the mass at the top, and the anchor point at the bottom. 

(Please feel free to correct any errors in the above).


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 15:04:15 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:00:33 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

One last point on space tethers. Since the bottom is anchored to the ground,
the top must be at least in geosynchronous orbit. That is a distance 22,241 miles above the surface (because centrifugal force has to exceed gravitational attraction at that radius). That's a very long tether.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 15:43:56 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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And a short circuit on a capacitor charged to 350KV at .25 Farads.
This just due to the ionosphere.

With a 200 ohm load, you'd match the earth's effective
resistance due to T-storm activity. Any guesses on how
much you could load it before diminishing global
storm activity? >80 megawatts???

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:01 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power


Hi,

One last point on space tethers. Since the bottom is anchored to the ground,
the top must be at least in geosynchronous orbit. That is a distance 22,241
miles above the surface (because centrifugal force has to exceed
gravitational attraction at that radius). That's a very long tether.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 15:46:45 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:44:03 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Emergent and obsolete technology - anti-gravity versus  space
  elevators
In-Reply-To: <p5185v4mqqgc1u3ogj9qiadnc7n1425ooj 4ax.com>
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 <003001c2d6f5$dc553b20$571c1c43 metrogr.org>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Space elevators are a pointless waste of money if you have anti-gravity 
>technology.

That's true, but as far as I know, anti-gravity technology does not exist. 
For all I know it is impossible.

Your statement is akin to saying that wind-turbines are pointless if you 
have cold fusion technology, or -- for that matter -- sails are pointless 
if you have steamships. True, but when you do not have them you 
should  look at alternatives. When they are emerging slowly you may need a 
stopgap solution, or a holdover. Sailing ships remained economically viable 
60 years after steamships emerged, in some routes, for some purposes. 
Mainframe computers are still in use 20 years after microcomputers become 
the dominant type.

A problem arises when you devote too much research or operational funding 
to obsolescent technology, after more promising alternatives have emerged. 
For example, no one should be developing ordinary ICE engines now that 
Toyota and Honda have shown that hybrid motors are practical. It seems 
clear to me that if NASA is to survive, the space shuttle must be scrapped 
immediately. All flights should be cancelled, the space station abandoned 
for now, and all NASA funding for the next 5 or 10 years must be devoted to 
developing a replacement shuttle. NASA is letting the space shuttle eat up 
its entire budget, fatally weakening it. Another shuttle will surely 
explode in the next few years, and that will be the end the entire manned 
space program. NASA is eating its own seed corn, by diverting all potential 
R&D funding into present operations, and into patching up a hopelessly 
flawed shuttle design. (I have read that shuttle contractors are forcing it 
to do this. They are letting their own greed destroy themselves.)

No one should sinking money into fission now that large-scale wind is 
cost-effective and growing by thousands of megawatts of real capacity per 
year. It is too late for fission. Time and progress have passed it by. One 
of the worst mistakes a corporation can make is to concentrate development 
resources on obsolescent technology, the way IBM concentrated on mainframes 
in the late 1990s. It is okay to continue selling sailing ships in 1870 or 
mainframes in 1995, but you should not invest serious R&D money in them.

A more insidious problem arises with unfair competition in the early stages 
of research. Sometimes, people working on inferior technology interfere 
with research on more promising solutions. Suppose, for example, serious 
space elevator R&D got underway, and the researchers and corporations 
involved heard about a promising anti-gravity device. Suppose they 
interfered with it, or spread nasty rumors about it, the way the hot fusion 
researchers stopped cold fusion. This seldom happens, because it is a big 
world. Most researchers are unaware they have serious competitors, until it 
is too late. Researchers seldom have the means to stop competitors anyway. 
It was unfortunate that the hot fusion people heard about cold fusion so 
quickly, and they were in a position to interfere with cold fusion 
research. They could do this because CF was still in the basic science 
stage, and it needed government funding. Wind power R&D succeeded because 
coal and oil moguls had no political leverage over the R&D funding, so they 
could not stop it. I am sure they would have stopped this R&D otherwise.

Something I find fascinating is the interplay of old and new technology, 
and the way older technology sometimes gets a lease on life by borrowing 
from new, emergent competition. Sailing ships benefited from advances in 
steamship construction. The final flowering of sailing ships, the 
"clippers" of the 1860s, would have been impossible without steam tugboats. 
Clippers were unwieldy and could not enter harbors on their own. Steam 
donkey engines and steel hulls kept sailing ships viable for decades. There 
were even a few in the Atlantic freight trade in the 1930s. The last mass 
production buggies in the U.S., sold by Sears and others in the 1920s, 
borrowed innovations from automobile production lines. Mainframe computers 
borrowed many good ideas from from microcomputers in the 1990s. That should 
have been the extent of their development. It is not a mistake to sell 
obsolete machines, or to copy ideas from emergent competition to an 
obsolete product. The mistake is when you concentrate resources on 
innovations that can only be used with the obsolete product.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 15:57:09 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:54:08 EST
Subject: Re: Reprt on your Manuscript
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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     ALL i did was rain on his parade with new technology that his physics or 
yours cannot explain. I dump on Eng. and Phy. types every chance i get.  
Because 99% have an attitude that they think they know it.all. Because or 
piss poor edu system told them they did  and they swallowed   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 16:03:22 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
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         DID Horace perform the experiment himself before he ran his mouth ?  
Did you run your mouth first?  yes or no If no where do you get off making a 
judgment call. ? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 16:40:15 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:36:52 EST
Subject: Thanks for the idea? 
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  I understand   Many are filtering me out and will not deal with me in 
regard to the new different technology situations I have presented.     So 
When we start our  CO> soon the computer genius will create E mail programs 
that will describe our company technology concepts. 

Those programs will pump these one sided thinking judgmental no investigating 
situations like vortex full of mails. That is called creative thinking most 
of you were not taught that. The majority were only taught conformity. And 
have never had an original idea in there life because of it. How do you like 
that one? I know how to win   Now you know how I can destroy peoples little 
know it all worlds that they have lock themselves into.      

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 17:00:41 2003
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From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Robin,

What is your purpose of your post? error?

Only words belong to you I saw on this post  are "Hi," , "[snip]" and your signature.

hamdi ucar


Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 17:04:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:01:53 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] hydrogen batteries
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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            Dan   Again  you do not know what your talking about that water 
vapor can be consumed to an extent. only  It is acidic and will cause acid 
rain  levels you cannot imagine. You  work for GM as an engineer.  I gave you 
the Chief scientist of Delphi's  direct phone NO. Who we instructed how to 
make, GM's now obsolete process function for free in the fall of 2001.   Your 
MIS leading these people either on purpose or because of your lack of 
knowledge  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 19:10:13 2003
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From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 05:08:23 +0200
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Horace,

Article is OK for me as it is said "additional tiny torque". This means author of the article considered momentum of the photon, and if there would be excess momentum on the hit to torsion balance, it could be considered as a mass not covered by e=mc2 equ.


Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> This article may be poorly written?  This can NOT be the experiment in the
> subject article?  Photons carry momentum and this experiment seems to
> suggest photons in a light beam carry no momentum.  This is crazy.
> 
> The author of this news flash fails to distinguish between mass and rest mass.
> 
> In addition to the above concerns, the photon carries or at least deposits
> "mass" in proportion to its energy which is permanently added to the
> absorbing body in the form of relativistic mass change due to the
> incremental change in velocity of the absorbing body.
> 
> At 2:30 PM 2/19/3, physnews aip.org wrote:
> >PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
> >The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
> >Number 625 February 19, 2003   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James
> >Riordon
> 
> >A NEW LIMIT ON PHOTON MASS, less than 10^-51 grams or 7 x 10^-19 electron
> >volts, has been established by an experiment in which light is aimed at a
> >sensitive torsion balance; if light had mass, the rotating balance would
> >suffer an additional tiny torque.  This represents a 20-fold improvement
> >over previous limits on photon mass.  Photon mass is expected to be zero by
> >most physicists, but this is an assumption which must be checked
> >experimentally.  A nonzero mass would make trouble for special relativity,
> >Maxwell's equations, and for Coulomb's inverse-square law for electrical
> >attraction.
[snip]

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 19:33:23 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:31:10 EST
Subject: Re: Emergent and obsolete technology - anti-gravity versus  space elevators
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          Jed   they just built a lifer in japan that 5 meters  across  It is 
all over the net. Some univ. .  Anti Gravity uses the earths mat. mag fields 
is how it functions    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 19:56:14 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Fwd: WHO WANTS TO SEE A FILE ABOUT A NUKE REACTOR IN A 5 Gal. Bucket
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       This is so far beyond you people it is sad.  No one investigated the 
last time i sent it out.  In a short period of time i will be your worst 
nightmare. I did not join to be one of you. Please I have not learned 
anything here as of yet.  it is wake up time to new happings Is why i joined  
 Horace you will have to join the other list where the  amateurs are  

--part1_1df.2747c8b.2b85ab70_boundary
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Return-path: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:41:47 EST
Subject: WHO WANTS TO SEE A FILE ABOUT A NUKE REACTOR IN A 5 Gal. Bucket
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      That is operational and does not produce any waste or B grade material 
and never reaches critical mass. That 6 units theoretically if used to 
operate turbines or steam engines that in turn operate Gen. Would provide 
power for the world trade center for comparison purposes.  

The Quantum leap situation is only for high demand power requirement 
applications.  A CIA contact of the DEV. has all ready showed the extensive 
files to the National Security council.  Plus Los Alamos and Berkley have saw 
them also. And all were clueless. 

But Gene Mallove the editor of Infinite energy Mag. understands them after I 
sent them to him. In 2001. He should he is a MIT trained Nuclear Physicist. 
The new technology renders current nuke thinking back to the ice age.  . It 
is time to wake up people a new world is coming be there or be square. 

--part1_1df.2747c8b.2b85ab70_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 01:19:30 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
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At 8:06 AM 2/20/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>>A NEW LIMIT ON PHOTON MASS, less than 10^-51 grams or 7 x 10^-19 electron
>>>volts, has been established by an experiment in which light is aimed at a
>>>sensitive torsion balance; if light had mass, the rotating balance would
>>>suffer an additional tiny torque.
>            ^^^^^^^^^^


At 5:08 AM 2/20/3, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
>Horace,
>
>Article is OK for me as it is said "additional tiny torque". This means
>author of the article considered momentum of the photon, and if there
>would be excess momentum on the hit to torsion balance, it could be
>considered as a mass not covered by e=mc2 equ.


OK, thnks Robin and Hamdi, for pointing out the significance of the word
"additional".

This thinking is to me still nonsense!  The photon has rest mass zero and a
known momentum.  There should be no "additional" momentum exchange.  When
the photon strikes the horizontal penulum, if it does not move, then the
excess mass is in the form of relativistic shift in mass due to random
kinetic energy (heat) increase.  However, the experiment will not pick up
this mass, only the momentum changes to the horizontal pendulum.  This does
not mean that mass has not been exchanged nor that gravity of the impinged
body is not affected, nor that gravity did not affect the photon in flight,
or vice versa, true?

I think energy and mass are inseperable in energy exchanges by photon or by
kinetic exchange.  The universe may or may not spontaneously create mass
and therefore energy from the vacuum, but it seems to me that mass and
energy must remain in the balance:

   E/m = c^2.

That is because photons carry momentum, and momentum corresponds to energy.
By Plank's law, photons carry energy E:

   E = h*nu = h(c/lambda)

and momentum

   p = h/lambda

so photons always carry momentum and energy in the ratio

   E/p = h(c/lambda)/(h/lambda) = c

Assume a photon is created by a nuclear event, where mass (delta m) is
converted to energy at the exchange rate of E = (delta m) c^2, thus there
is a loss of mass:

   (delta m) = E/c^2.

This photon is thought, by conventional theory, to carry no mass, only the
momentum p = E/c.  However, to conserve momentum, a photon absorbed by a
target mass must impart to the target mass an additional kinetic energy
(delta K) corresponding to the change in velocity of the target due to the
momentum change of the impacted mass, and if energy is conserved then
(delta K)=E.  However, by the special theory of relativity, that results in
a corresponding increase in apparent mass of the absorbing body by the
ratio  (delta K)/c^2 = (delta m).  The photon carried mass (delta m) from
one body to another.  Therefore *both* mass and energy are always conserved
in a photon exchange, as is the ratio E/m = c^2.

The interesting thing to me is that photons clearly carry mass from one
place to another, i.e. do mass exchange, yet are thought to have no mass.
Further, it is well known (from lensing effects of stars) that photons are
bent by gravity in an amount exactly equal to the amount a mass carrying
body would be bent. It is said this proves space is warped, in that the
supposedly mass-free photon travels the same path as a high speed mass
carrying particle.

It seems to me far more logical that the photon has mass.  It is held in a
black hole by gravity.  It strikes me as strange that a photon travelling
directly away from a black hole, a singularity, reverses course upon
itself, retracing its path right back to the black hole. If this is because
space is warped, how is it the electron has a path to retrace at all?  Then
there is the issue of quantum gravity - the notion that gravity is
exchanged by gravitions.  If gravity is a force exchange by gravitons, then
the notion of warped space in addition provides a double apparent force,
thus things are out of kilter.  Is it graviton exchange that pulls the
photon back to the black hole?  If so, then the photon is capable of
graviton exchange, and thus has mass.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 01:35:39 2003
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:33:17 +1100
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If I understand the intent of this posting correctly,
Mr. Carey is threatening to flood Vortex (and by
implication a number of other lists and possibly
individuals) with emails that "describe our company
technology concepts".

The term for this sort of activity is certainly not
"creative thinking".

A more appropriate term would be "spam" or "unsolicited
commercial email" and, if perpetrated in sufficiently
high volumes could easily be construed as amounting to
a deliberate denial-of-service attack.

I would sincerely advise that he drops any such
intention immediately as it could get him (and
possibly his associates) into a great deal of
legal hot water. Not to mention retaliation in
kind if he targets individuals who are inclined
toward such activity.

This posting should not be construed as a threat.
My intent is simply to offer friendly advice.


JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
>   I understand   Many are filtering me out and will not deal with me in 
> regard to the new different technology situations I have presented.     So 
> When we start our  CO> soon the computer genius will create E mail programs 
> that will describe our company technology concepts. 
> 
> Those programs will pump these one sided thinking judgmental no investigating 
> situations like vortex full of mails. That is called creative thinking most 
> of you were not taught that. The majority were only taught conformity. And 
> have never had an original idea in there life because of it. How do you like 
> that one? I know how to win   Now you know how I can destroy peoples little 
> know it all worlds that they have lock themselves into.      
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 01:54:57 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
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At 10:00 AM 2/20/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>One last point on space tethers. Since the bottom is anchored to the ground,
>the top must be at least in geosynchronous orbit. That is a distance
>22,241 miles above the surface (because centrifugal force has to exceed
>gravitational attraction at that radius). That's a very long tether.


Yes, and possibly much longer than that, or else the mass there must be
exceedingly large.  That is because the coriolis force of a rising object
is lateral against the tether.  The thether will be bent and thus reduce
its orbital diameter.

To avoid this problem, the mass returned from space must equal the mass
taken up to space.  This means a down car or weight must balance in mass
the up car.  There must be a source of mass to bring back down.  Further,
that mass must be moving at the same rate as the space end of the tether.
Otherwise, station keeping rockets for the tether end will have to expend
about as much fuel as required to lift the excess upward moving mass into
orbit.  There is then not much in energy savings from installing the
tether, if any.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 03:02:00 2003
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030219113708.00a8b6f0 pop.mindspring.com> <v04210100ba7987855b77@[192.168.123.4]>
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] bla bla religious off-topic nonsense
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:40:00 -0000
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I just added Carey to my killfile list. Actually he is the only person in it
because it takes a LOT to make me use this function.

Nick


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:13:52 EST
Subject: Re: Thanks for the idea? And the responce from down under
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      Gentlemen/ Sir   Do you know of Mark Elliot The international award 
winning  film maker from Melbourne.?  He was here on a world wide in scope 
fact finder regarding a planned documentary about new energy technologies. He 
is backed by the Aust. Broadcasting Co.... Discovery Canada and your Govt. 

Do you know of Ecosustainable also in Melbourne a world wide group.  Its 
managing Director Mario Grinisic who has one of our operational technology 
demonstration CD disk and called July 4 th.about becoming involved in a 
business sense. He had peviously referred me to Rhiendhold Zigler in San Fran 
who I saw there in June Then he referred me to Steven Greer in DC who I have 
had conversation with. . That is the level I deal on. 
 
 People      Whether you like it or not New technologies can be demonstrated 
and have to colleges that no main stream science situation on this planet can 
explain. Because they have no math to do so without that they are lost in 
what i call the cold dark foreboding sea of ignorance  

New situations produce heavy industrial work with power draw factors that are 
a fraction of current requirements. I have presented situations and all I 
have received in return is stone wall in the box thinking. Witch amounts to 
judgmental no investigative arrogant attitudes. Your EDU systems have created 
that situation when they programed out your investigative abilities you 
possessed when your were children 

These technologies and there are several diverse ones. Will cause the demise 
of the current in the box restrictive theory only based main stream science 
comm. Witch will be necessary it appears if we are ever to evolve as a 
civilization otherwise we will not. Witch also means you scientific ones will 
basically no longer be experts about basically anything. I have offered you a 
chance to evolve and you have declined. Only know it all fools do that. Your 
degrees did not come with guarantees   

If so what are you going to do now that many of your bases of knowledge and 
your giant ego's will be totally  crushed? You were given an opportunity to 
step up to the plate and possibly attain the complete equation of knowledge. 
No, that would make common sense we cannot have something like that 
occurring. The attitude is WE are the elite ones and  know we know it all. 
Because they told us we did.and who do you think you are questioning our 
basically book taught teachings because they are absolute. 

Well, let tell you who I am   I have the biggest technology hammer in 
probably in recorded history that I will  use if necessary if I'm forced to 
and your causing that to happen. To make the positive changes on this planet 
with you or without you that we all have a responsibility to make for those 
who follow us. You are forcing me to make fools out of you as I have all 
ready done to many. You need to wake up but I care less what you do.

 I do not need the SCI comm for anything because I go can go right around 
them. Your forefathers would have never progressed if they would have had 
your attitudes. Hal Fox told of us a prophecy that has circulated among many 
scientists, that is one who is not one of them will cause many new 
evolutionary changes to occur. Is this the full filling of that prophecy who 
knows.?           

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 08:11:33 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <19e.10dd9524.2b865736 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:07:18 EST
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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In a message dated 2/19/2003 7:48:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
harvich yahoo.com writes:

> what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric
> >and
> >>magnetic potentials are?

I thought the speed of light was calculated to be c based on the speed of 
visible white light and not dark light.  The electromagnetic spectrum covers 
many frequencies beyond white light, and the smaller the frequency the faster 
the speed of the radiaiton should be.  Many electricmagnetic energies overlap 
with the gravaticmagnetic energies.  The gravatic magnetic energies are 
100,000 times the speed of c according to Dr. John Milewski at 
http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/new/milewski.htm .   Einstines theory of 
relativity has been proven false and that there must be an aether or electron 
aether, and even Einstein admitted this at the end of his career, though the 
modern acedemic media does not teach this in schools and text books.  Even if 
one accepts Einstiens theory of relativity, Eienstine did not calculate or 
even discuss the theory of partcles faster than the speed of light, he only 
discussed the theory of particles equal to or less than the speed of light. 

If part of the magnetic energies are created by nutrinos, and tachyons, which 
may travel faster than the speed of light, then part of the magnetic energies 
may also travel faster than the speed of light.   

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/19/2003 7:48:25 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, harvich yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">what the speed of 'propagation'=
 of the electric<BR>
&gt;and<BR>
&gt;&gt;magnetic potentials are?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I thought the speed of light was calculated to be c based on the speed of vi=
sible white light and not dark light.&nbsp; The electromagnetic spectrum cov=
ers many frequencies beyond white light, and the smaller the frequency the f=
aster the speed of the radiaiton should be.&nbsp; Many electricmagnetic ener=
gies overlap with the gravaticmagnetic energies.&nbsp; The gravatic magnetic=
 energies are 100,000 times the speed of c according to Dr. John Milewski at=
 http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/new/milewski.htm .&nbsp;&nbsp; Einstines th=
eory of relativity has been proven false and that there must be an aether or=
 electron aether, and even Einstein admitted this at the end of his career,=20=
though the modern acedemic media does not teach this in schools and text boo=
ks.&nbsp; Even if one accepts Einstiens theory of relativity, Eienstine did=20=
not calculate or even discuss the theory of partcles faster than the speed o=
f light, he only discussed the theory of particles equal to or less than the=
 speed of light. <BR>
<BR>
If part of the magnetic energies are created by nutrinos, and tachyons, whic=
h may travel faster than the speed of light, then part of the magnetic energ=
ies may also travel faster than the speed of light.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_19e.10dd9524.2b865736_boundary--

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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:06:47 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Sonofusion, "beta aether" and jounce
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Last spring, Oak Ridge (ORNL) and Rensselaer (RPI) reported the =
observation of nuclear fusion using what they modestly called their =
"novel" technique - ultrasound -but in fact Roger Stringham and Russ =
George had been producing sonofusion results for years before their =
announcement. Ross Tessien, who used to post to Vortex, is on the =
cutting edge of sonofusion, and has written about the aether, but I =
can't find a specific post on whether he thinks the aether (ZPE) is a =
mechanism in sonofusion. Ross Tessien founded Impulse Devices, Inc. and =
hired a leading sonoluminescence researcher Felipe Gaitan; they are =
working on large reactors. Infinite Energy magazine had been reporting =
these experiments for some time, but although. IE achieved some of their =
own positive sonofusion results based on Stringham's older design, they =
apparently gave up when that design didn't prove very robust (see Vol 7, =
Issue 40, November-December, 2001).=20

In most of these devices, one of more piezoelectric devices produces =
ultrasonic waves which implode small cavitation bubbles of =
deuterated-acetone or deuterium vapor to achieve fusion, with tritium =
being an easily detected ash component in the more robust cells. When =
tritium is found, unlike helium, the skeptic is hard pressed to claim =
contamination. Even without fusion, sonoluminescent light flashes can be =
observed by almost anyone with a piezo and a beaker of water.=20

Some observers see the sonofusion mechanism as a straight-forward =
pressure multiplication device that depends on the "miracle" of =
spherical convergence at the small scale of the bubble. In other words, =
valence electrons temporarily freed during the cavitations of the =
bubbles then re-converge on a much smaller area during collapse, and as =
such, it is a lower energy way to achieve Inertial Confinement Fusion =
(ICF).=20

To cast this in another light, ICF depends upon *acceleration* of a =
driver (ions or electrons or photons) and sometimes requires megawatts, =
depending upon the degree of focusing used, while sonofusion depends =
upon the higher order derivative of position, *jerk* together with =
convergence, and only requires tens of watts. Jerk is derived from =
changes in acceleration, which is the feature of ultrasonic stimulation. =
Does this also demonstrate the importance of higher order derivatives?

If so, then take the next step: if one could convert ultrasonic jerk =
into *jounce,* the fourth derivative of position, would it then be =
possible to create massive commercial scale sonofusion? (this brings to =
mind the movie "Chain Reaction," though I doubt Keanu has a clue as to =
what jounce is). A related question, is 'spherical convergence' itself =
already converting some of the ultrasonic jerk into jounce?

Livermore (LLNL)  researchers have modeled the modus operandi of =
convergence, using complex numerical codes to investigate the effects of =
spherical convergence on the dynamics of bubbles. These are the same =
models developed initially to simulate the implosion phase of nuclear =
weapons. In fact small nuclear weapons are only possible because of the =
magic of spherical convergence- its like the lever of  Archimedes, "Give =
me a lever long enough and a place upon which to stand in space and I =
will lift the world." We are talking gigantic multiples here; because as =
the radius decreases in spherical convergence, the effective increase in =
pressure is cubic - for instance, if you central focus is .001 of the =
original bubble radius, then the force multiplication  theoretically =
could approach a billion to one, but the precision required is seldom =
there...so, there is more to the story than convergence.

Spherical convergence may another way of expressing the "triaxial =
tension," and the "beta aether" phenomena that was reported in a recent =
issue of IE by Frank Grimer. "Beta-aether"  is likely to be very similar =
to what is often called the zero point field or ZPF or the Casimir =
force. Frank believes after years of work in structural engineering that =
much (or all) of what we consider to be the inherent strength of =
materials is in fact the result of what can best be described as =
subatomic "pressure" which is *external* to the material . He has =
interesting proof.=20

Ultrasonic waves may resonantly extract and then refocus some of this =
beta-aether, which adds to whatever energy multiplication is otherwise =
available. The most apparent energy spectrum for radiation from =
sonofusion, as well as certain other LENR effects, is in the "soft" =
x-ray energy range - that is, in the 10s of keV, exactly what one =
expects to find from k-shell interactions and Auger cascades. The =
precise mechanics of such a k-shell interaction could involve =
Casimir-type pressures at subnanometer dimensions acting on valence or =
free electrons in such a way as to accelerate the electrons into inner =
orbitals of adjacent atoms - following which an Auger cascade creates =
further EM radiation. If enough radiation is focused you get D+D fusion, =
which has been proven to occur at a threshold of about 20 keV (the =
so-called Boltzmann's tail of the Maxwellian energy distribution)

Casimir type, beta aether pressures are small scale, but still 3D but =
the "extradimensional" factor may be a future avenue for improvement in =
sonofusion, in consort with increased use of spherical convergence, =
triaxial tension, and ZPF refocusing which can magnify the normal ICF =
forces that are felt in three dimensions. It can be a temptation to =
convert mathematical abstractions, such as a "fourth derivative" into an =
actual physical space, so I am not comfortable with the full =
implications of this, but IMHO if one wanted to convert the *jerk* of =
sonofusion, into more * jounce,* then there are at least two things I =
would look at:

1) First use a spherical reactor cell. I believe that many cells, even =
now, are cylindrical. This is a probably a big design mistake. Keanu's =
in Chain Reaction looked like a glass aquarium tank...artistic license, =
I suppose.

2) Use multiple focused piezo transducers, evenly spaced around the =
sphere, like the 12 in a dodecagon. Precision is important. The small =
nuclear devices that depend on convergence, mentioned above, are built =
to tolerances higher than the Swiss watch.=20

Obviously if you can get high energy multiplication using a single =
transducer, enough to get sonofusion, then you can theoretically =
piggyback the individual energy of local bursts into one central =
convergence zone, giving yourself an additional dimension of pressure =
magnification.

Converting jerk into jounce, now that has a strange ring to it...let's =
hope it doesn't end like Keanu's first one did...

Jones

Bushism of the Day =20
"One year ago today, the time for excuse-making has come to an end."
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<DIV>
<DIV>Last spring, Oak Ridge (ORNL) and Rensselaer (RPI) reported the =
observation=20
of nuclear fusion using what they modestly called&nbsp;their "novel"=20
technique&nbsp;- ultrasound -but in fact&nbsp;Roger Stringham and Russ =
George=20
had been producing&nbsp;sonofusion results for years before their =
announcement.=20
Ross Tessien, who used to post to Vortex, is on the cutting edge of =
sonofusion,=20
and has written about the aether, but I can't find a specific post on =
whether he=20
thinks&nbsp;the aether (ZPE)&nbsp;is a mechanism in sonofusion. Ross =
Tessien=20
founded Impulse Devices, Inc.&nbsp;and&nbsp;hired a leading =
sonoluminescence=20
researcher Felipe Gaitan;&nbsp;they are&nbsp;working on&nbsp;large =
reactors.=20
Infinite Energy magazine&nbsp;had been reporting these experiments for =
some=20
time, but although. IE achieved some of their own&nbsp;positive =
sonofusion=20
results based on Stringham's older design, they apparently&nbsp;gave up =
when=20
that design didn't prove very robust (see Vol 7, Issue 40, =
November-December,=20
2001). </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In most of these devices, one of more&nbsp;piezoelectric=20
devices&nbsp;produces&nbsp;ultrasonic waves which&nbsp;implode small =
cavitation=20
bubbles of deuterated-acetone or deuterium vapor to achieve fusion, with =
tritium=20
being an easily detected ash component in the more robust cells. When =
tritium is=20
found, unlike helium, the skeptic is hard pressed to claim =
contamination. Even=20
without fusion, sonoluminescent light flashes can be observed by almost =
anyone=20
with a piezo and a beaker of water. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Some&nbsp;observers see the sonofusion mechanism as =
a=20
straight-forward pressure multiplication device that depends on the =
"miracle" of=20
spherical convergence at the small scale of the bubble. In other words, =
valence=20
electrons temporarily freed during the cavitations of the bubbles then=20
re-converge on a much smaller area during collapse, and as such, it =
is&nbsp;a=20
lower energy way to achieve Inertial Confinement Fusion (ICF). =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>To cast this in another light, ICF depends upon =
*acceleration*=20
of a driver (ions or electrons or photons) and sometimes requires =
megawatts,=20
depending upon the degree of focusing used, while sonofusion depends=20
upon&nbsp;the higher order derivative of position, *jerk* together with=20
convergence, and only requires&nbsp;tens of watts. Jerk is derived from =
changes=20
in acceleration, which is the feature of ultrasonic stimulation. Does =
this also=20
demonstrate the importance of higher order derivatives?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>If so, then take the next step:&nbsp;if one could =
convert=20
ultrasonic&nbsp;jerk into *jounce,* the fourth derivative of position, =
would it=20
then be possible to create massive commercial scale sonofusion? (this =
brings to=20
mind the movie "Chain Reaction," though I doubt Keanu has a clue as to =
what=20
jounce is). A related question, is 'spherical convergence' itself =
already=20
converting some of the ultrasonic jerk into jounce?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Livermore (LLNL)&nbsp; researchers have modeled the =
modus=20
operandi of convergence, using </FONT><FONT size=3D3>complex numerical =
codes to=20
investigate the effects of spherical </FONT><FONT size=3D3>convergence =
on the=20
dynamics of bubbles. </FONT><FONT size=3D3>These are the same =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>models developed initially to simulate the implosion =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>phase of nuclear weapons. In fact small nuclear weapons are =
only possible=20
because of the magic of spherical convergence- its like the&nbsp;lever =
of&nbsp;=20
Archimedes, "Give me a lever long enough and a place upon which to stand =
in=20
space and I will lift the world."&nbsp;We are&nbsp;talking gigantic =
multiples=20
here; because as the radius decreases in spherical <FONT=20
size=3D3>convergence</FONT>, the effectiv</FONT><FONT size=3D3>e =
increase in=20
pressure is&nbsp;cubic - for instance, if you central focus is .001 of =
the=20
original bubble radius, then the&nbsp;force multiplication&nbsp; =
theoretically=20
could approach a billion to one, but the precision required is seldom=20
there...</FONT>so, there&nbsp;is more to the story than =
convergence.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Spherical convergence&nbsp;may&nbsp;another way of expressing the =
"triaxial=20
tension," and the "beta aether"&nbsp;phenomena that was reported in a =
recent=20
issue of IE by Frank Grimer. "Beta-aether"&nbsp;&nbsp;is likely to be =
very=20
similar to what is often called the zero point field or ZPF or&nbsp;the =
Casimir=20
force. Frank believes after years of work in structural engineering that =
much=20
(or all) of what we consider to be the inherent strength of materials is =
in fact=20
the result of what can best be described as subatomic&nbsp;"pressure" =
which is=20
*external* to the material . He has interesting proof. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ultrasonic waves&nbsp;may resonantly extract and then refocus some =
of this=20
beta-aether, which adds to whatever energy multiplication is otherwise=20
available.&nbsp;The most apparent energy spectrum&nbsp;for radiation =
from=20
sonofusion, as well as certain other LENR&nbsp;effects, is in the "soft" =
x-ray=20
energy range - that is, in the 10s of keV, exactly what one expects to =
find from=20
k-shell interactions and Auger cascades. The precise mechanics of such a =
k-shell=20
interaction could involve Casimir-type pressures at subnanometer =
dimensions=20
acting on valence or free electrons in such a way as to accelerate the =
electrons=20
into inner orbitals of adjacent atoms&nbsp;- following which an Auger =
cascade=20
creates further EM radiation. If enough radiation is focused you get D+D =
fusion,=20
which has been proven to occur at a threshold of about 20 keV (the =
so-called=20
Boltzmann's tail of the Maxwellian energy distribution)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Casimir type, beta aether&nbsp;pressures are small scale, but still =
3D but=20
the "extradimensional" factor may be&nbsp;a future avenue for =
improvement=20
in&nbsp;sonofusion, in consort with increased use of spherical=20
convergence,&nbsp;triaxial tension, and ZPF refocusing which can magnify =
the=20
normal ICF forces that are felt in three dimensions.&nbsp;It can be a =
temptation=20
to convert mathematical abstractions, such as a "fourth derivative" into =
an=20
actual physical space, so I am not comfortable with the full =
implications of=20
this, but IMHO if one wanted to convert the&nbsp;*jerk* of sonofusion,=20
into&nbsp;more *&nbsp;jounce,* then&nbsp;there are at least two things I =
would=20
look at:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1) First&nbsp;use a&nbsp;spherical reactor cell. I believe that =
many cells,=20
even now, are cylindrical. This is a probably a big design mistake. =
Keanu's in=20
Chain Reaction looked like a glass aquarium tank...artistic license, I=20
suppose.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2)&nbsp;Use multiple focused piezo transducers, evenly spaced =
around the=20
sphere, like the 12 in a dodecagon. Precision is important. The small =
nuclear=20
devices that depend on convergence, mentioned above, are built to =
tolerances=20
higher than the Swiss watch. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Obviously if you can get high energy multiplication using a single=20
transducer, enough&nbsp;to get sonofusion, then you can theoretically =
piggyback=20
the individual energy of&nbsp;local bursts into one central convergence =
zone,=20
giving yourself an additional dimension of pressure magnification.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Converting jerk into jounce, now that has a strange ring to =
it...let's hope=20
it doesn't end like Keanu's first one did...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bushism of the Day &nbsp;<BR>"One year ago today, the time for=20
excuse-making has come to an end."</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C2D8B7.03C8C7E0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 08:20:45 2003
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:18:50 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] bla bla religious off-topic nonsense
In-Reply-To: <009501c2d8cf$873320e0$388f209a ggrf30j>
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The Duke sent me a message about this: "I posted it by mistake sorry!" No 
harm done.

- Jed

(P.S. Is this the Duke of Earl, by any chance?)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 08:22:29 2003
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:19:41 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Emergent and obsolete technology - anti-gravity versus  space
   elevators
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Jed Rothwell Posted

>  It seems clear to me that if NASA is to survive, the space shuttle 
>must be scrapped immediately. All flights should be cancelled, the 
>space station abandoned for now, and all NASA funding for the next 5 
>or 10 years must be devoted to developing a replacement shuttle.

I agree, but you need a reentry vehicle. I think that the bell design 
is good, but can it bring large objects back from orbit? What about 
slowing it down just before impact. John Mc Cain is going to 
investigate this matter, so here is your opportunity to make an 
impact.

A more insidious problem arises with unfair competition in the early 
stages of research. Sometimes, people working on inferior technology 
interfere with research on more promising solutions.

I agree, which is why I want to try and stop the funding for more hot 
fusion research.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 08:22:40 2003
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:19:41 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
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Robin Von Spaandonk replies;

>In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:31:42 -0500:
>and hence are not "in orbit". That means that such a device is never 
>inherently stable. It is kept in place by the mass at the top, and 
>the anchor point at the bottom.
>
>(Please feel free to correct any errors in the above).
>
I read that the material used to make the cable would have to be 
stronger by an order of magnitude than any existing material, of 
course that was 20 years ago. has material science improved that much?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 08:36:51 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1e.aaee8e6.2b865d1b aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:32:27 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] The beginnings of a New Age
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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         What are the models?  They are a Greed driven corrupt system that 
wants to control. That has broke up the family unit and dumbed down the 
population. Why? Well, in the late 60's we not me personally rebelled against 
authority and a BS war. Because we became to smart from our high quality EDU  
that are now nothing but conformity taught situations and worthless BTDT  
have you? 

I have what is probably one of the best edu. On this planet excerpt for 
writing abilities. Because This is where community edu. was started by the 
visionary CS Mott who was the prime builder of GM.  In  the 50's  when I 
attended they came from all over this country to what we were doing 
correctly.

 I always encouraged  My children and they are all successful and did not 
listen to the school system when they attempted to preach conformity to them 
and are or near college graduates. My daughter is a senior and at the top of 
her class as far as being a PR genius but only about a B student. 

She as the others were required to take classes they had no interest in. 
Witch needs to be changed to where you can select what you want. Her 
professors said she is the best they have ever seen. Who Knows but she may 
have Presidential capabilities in 20 years. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 08:44:49 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Roundtable7] bla bla religious off-topic nonsense
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:59:59 -0500
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Nah, that'd be...

The Duke of URL.

bada bing, bada-boom!

K.

PS: Hey Baron, your poetry links don't seem to work.
Please correct them, so we can groove there-upon.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:19 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] bla bla religious off-topic nonsense


The Duke sent me a message about this: "I posted it by mistake sorry!" No 
harm done.

- Jed

(P.S. Is this the Duke of Earl, by any chance?)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 12:20:33 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:13:51 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:17:28 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 8:06 AM 2/20/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>>>A NEW LIMIT ON PHOTON MASS, less than 10^-51 grams or 7 x 10^-19 electron
>>>>volts, has been established by an experiment in which light is aimed at a
>>>>sensitive torsion balance; if light had mass, the rotating balance would
>>>>suffer an additional tiny torque.
>>            ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>At 5:08 AM 2/20/3, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
>>Horace,
>>
>>Article is OK for me as it is said "additional tiny torque". This means
>>author of the article considered momentum of the photon, and if there
>>would be excess momentum on the hit to torsion balance, it could be
>>considered as a mass not covered by e=mc2 equ.
>
>
>OK, thnks Robin and Hamdi, for pointing out the significance of the word
>"additional".
>
>This thinking is to me still nonsense!  The photon has rest mass zero and a
>known momentum.  There should be no "additional" momentum exchange. 

Precisely "should". It is this assumption that the experiment was designed to test.


[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 15:07:37 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <79.a9dbd5e.2b86b8cb aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:03:39 EST
Subject: Re: The machine you have for sale
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, temalloy@metro.lakes.com
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       Jed said he would pay 10,000 for a situation in a mail to someone. And 
not have rights to it . He offered me 20,000 last year on the phone for the 
lighter that operates on water instead of butane  but it is not for sale. So 
I said I had a phase convert he could buy for 25,000 that proved the first 
new elect. in 100 years that is a 2 Hp. that can conduct up 6 Hp of 3 phase 
work from 220 V

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 15:35:04 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:32:45 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen economy  It Will Not work using present thinking 
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In a message dated 2/13/2003 3:19:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> I suggest you review a basic textbook on energy . . . and I was going to 
> suggest a title, but I cannot think of one offhand. Maybe there is 
> something by Asimov?
> 
> - Jed
> 

Thank you Jed.  I found a book by Asimov in the Barnes and Noble Book store 
today, which discusses the development of an electron pump, that pumps 
electrons between our universe and a para-universe, where the laws of energy 
are different from the laws of energy in our universe.    Asimov speaks of 
water running down a hill to create energy and being able to find another 
para-universe where when water or energy runs down the hill it is actually 
running up the hill in our universe, so that by the time the energy is passed 
back to our universe it is at a higher energy state, without costing us any 
energy at all.   Asimov goes into about 20 pages of detail explanation on how 
to change, by using antiproton chemistry, the chemical properties of tungsten 
and plutonium to be operating stable in another para-universe, but which is 
not very stable in our universe, to swap energy between universes.  

Asimov warns us that we must be careful not to disrupt the natural energy 
cycles in the sun, galaxy, and our universe when transferring energy between 
universes.  Asimov states that there should be trillions of years worth of 
energy that can be swapped between universes, but if we are not careful we 
could burn out our own sun.    Other universes depend on the stability of our 
universe, so that both universes must work together in harmony.   This idea 
of Asomov's, is a true free energy idea, where as the energies used in most 
alternative energy devices are coming from this universe by simply 
efficiently transferring the energy from one state such as a neutrino to 
another state such as an electron.   We could develop a mathematics of a 
parallel universe using antiproton or subquark chemistry as the Russians have 
done with monopole-magnetic crystal chemistry, to make the energy conversion 
more efficient and also purely free between energy states in an atom, to 
collect free energy. 

If you want more details on Asimov's theory, please read the book The God's 
Themselves By Isaac Asimov published around 1972.   Thanks for the reference. 


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/13/2003 3:19:34 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I suggest you review a basic te=
xtbook on energy . . . and I was going to <BR>
suggest a title, but I cannot think of one offhand. Maybe there is <BR>
something by Asimov?<BR>
<BR>
- Jed<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you Jed.&nbsp; I found a book by Asimov in the Barnes and Noble Book s=
tore today, which discusses the development of an electron pump, that pumps=20=
electrons between our universe and a para-universe, where the laws of energy=
 are different from the laws of energy in our universe.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As=
imov speaks of water running down a hill to create energy and being able to=20=
find another para-universe where when water or energy runs down the hill it=20=
is actually running up the hill in our universe, so that by the time the ene=
rgy is passed back to our universe it is at a higher energy state, without c=
osting us any energy at all.&nbsp;&nbsp; Asimov goes into about 20 pages of=20=
detail explanation on how to change, by using antiproton chemistry, the chem=
ical properties of tungsten and plutonium to be operating stable in another=20=
para-universe, but which is not very stable in our universe, to swap energy=20=
between universes.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Asimov warns us that we must be careful not to disrupt the natural energy cy=
cles in the sun, galaxy, and our universe when transferring energy between u=
niverses.&nbsp; Asimov states that there should be trillions of years worth=20=
of energy that can be swapped between universes, but if we are not careful w=
e could burn out our own sun.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Other universes depend on th=
e stability of our universe, so that both universes must work together in ha=
rmony.&nbsp;&nbsp; This idea of Asomov's, is a true free energy idea, where=20=
as the energies used in most alternative energy devices are coming from this=
 universe by simply efficiently transferring the energy from one state such=20=
as a neutrino to another state such as an electron.&nbsp;&nbsp; We could dev=
elop a mathematics of a parallel universe using antiproton or subquark chemi=
stry as the Russians have done with monopole-magnetic crystal chemistry, to=20=
make the energy conversion more efficient and also purely free between energ=
y states in an atom, to collect free energy. <BR>
<BR>
If you want more details on Asimov's theory, please read the book The God's=20=
Themselves By Isaac Asimov published around 1972.&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks for the=
 reference. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_12e.237fc3fd.2b86bf9d_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 16:14:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <102.2739934e.2b86c8e2 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:12:18 EST
Subject: Re: Sonofusion, Just spoke to Ross Tessien in Calif.  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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              I just had a conversation with  Ross Tessien in Calif. there in 
just the beginning stages. I wanted to see where they were. Our colleague 
about 3 hours from here has a  5 Gal Nuke Reactor that can be Demoed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 19 16:47:51 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:44:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Speed of electric/magnetic potential
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--- Keasy aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/17/2003 7:01:19 PM Mountain
> Standard Time, 
> kyle_mcallister yahoo.com writes:
> 
> > Can anyone provide me with information pertaining
> to
> > what the speed of 'propagation' of the electric
> and
> > magnetic potentials are? Or are they not even
> assumed
> > to propagate? Math is welcome as far as a response
> is
> > concerned, but words are appreciated too.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > --Kyle
> > 
> 
> Well, the generally accepted theoretical answer is c
> (in free space).  Any 
> time a potential changes it is caused by some change
> in source distribution, 
> or a propagating field.  The effects of both are
> described by Maxwell's 
> equations, which lead to a speed of c.  
>                                                     
>                       
> Ken
The speed of propagation of an electrical impulse in
solenoidal  single layered coil is also based on a
consideration that it propagates at the speed of
light, and we generalize those calculations by the
calculation of the "quarter wavelength" of the
resonator. We are in that instance essentially using
the length of the wire, figuring how long a time
period it takes for the impulse to bounce back and
forth at c, and then arriving at a "resonant
frequency" for the solenoid. These kind of
calculations were the historical method used to
calculate the resonant frequency of the secondary of a
tesla coil. To make the TC function one merely matches
the L and C quantities of the tesla primary to come
out to have the same "natural resonant freq" of the
tesla secondary. This is done by Thompson's resonance
formula where R(f)= 1/[2pi * sq rt (LC)]

Some more modern commentators on tesla coil
construction have pointed out that the quarter
wavelength theory for TC's is somewhat of a myth. Paul
Nicholson shows some graphs that indicate that
actually an unloaded TC secondary, (without a globe or
toroid on the top of the secondary) can have a higher
resonant frequency value than what would be predicted
by the quarter wavelength consideration. See
http://www.abelian.demon.co.uk/tssp/misc.html

This becomes most mysterious since a higher natural
res freq would imply a propagtion speed greater than
c, but when we also consider that the induction
between windings can occur, this seems to rationalize
that phenomenon.

I have also pointed out that the propagation speed can
also be limited in the opposite direction, and that
this occurs in multi-layered coils, because of the
internal capacity between windings. At
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/669
I show a bifilar spiraled coil that apparently is
registering a 13 fold reduction in c as its resonant
frequency. (~ 30,000 hz) This same coil has also been
tested by other means to show the same approximate
reduction in R(f).

Longitudinal EM from Magnet windings/ .1volt/10us/div 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/Dsc00385.jpg

Bifilar spiral coil/ conventional reception for rf
ringdown/ 1x probe/ .2 volt/div;10 us/div 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRS/Dsc00354.jpg

Bifilar spiral coil/ longitudinal reception for rf
ringdown/ 1 x probe/ .2 volt/div: 10 us /div 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRS/Dsc00355.jpg

A multiturned coil having almost the same length of
wire, (500 ft of 14 gauge) also tests out having a
much larger R(f) value than the former coil, because
it lacks the much larger amount of internal capacity
that the bifilar has, but it is also a much lower
value than would exist at its quarter wavelength
value.

BRS Scoping of Conventional EM Rf Spike on 11 mh coil:
10x probe   20volts/div; 1us/div 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRS/Dsc00348.jpg
( 1.8 cycles in 10 us = ~180,000 hz)

BRS Scoping of Longitudinal EM Rf spike on 11 mh coil:
10x probe   50 volts/div; 1us/div 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRS/Dsc00349.jpg

I use the term "longitudinal" to note that the coil in
in the "wrong orientation" to recieve conventional
flux change, and that the coils subjected to this
longitudinal influence of EM are turned "longways" to
the suspected magnetic field lines, instead of the
conventional orientation where the coils openings
contain magnetic flux change. Indeed when we put a
coil around the suspected magnetic field made by a
neon tubes discharge, the coil windings are parallel
to the suspected magnetic field. Conventional NST's,
(Neon sign transformers) do not emit longitudinal EM
from bulbs powered in that way, in the example I have
provided where the neon emits the EM in that fashion,
the  emf winding source is also parallel to the
magnetic field, that would exist at 90 degrees to a
changing electric field in space. 

Sincerely HDN



=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
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In a message dated 2/20/03 1:30:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
carpgachair yahoo.com writes:


> It can be viewed as both.  Granted, plants require CO2
> for photosynthesis and in so doing, produce free
> oxygen which animals (including us) need.
> 
> However, too much of anything is bad.  With the
> tropical rainforests being destroyed to provide just
> five years of stock grazing (then the soil is
> depleated and dessertification occurs), the
> phytoplankton in the oceans being destroyed by
> pollution, and fossil fuel producing more and more
> CO2, then we do have too much and greenhouse effect
> runs rampant.
>     =========================================================== 

    REPLY      He knows what he is talking about    Now let me add to it  THE 
navy with their communications system they use with Subs. also  is damaging 
plankton and sea life Plus you. > They need to change frequency's, using 
> generators they use in the Medical field,  the Gobi desert is claiming 5
> 00,000 acre's a year. By 2020 the Chinese will be the largest creators of 
> green house gases currently they are third according to Time Mag. 

   Now factor in 8 billion people that is a 33% increase by 2040 the sky will 
dark grey basically all the time. By 2060 it 
> will be almost black. and 13 billion people over double what we have now. By 
> 2020 we double electrical demand.from 10 trillion to 20 trillion kilo 
> watts. WE can not burn any fuels .PERIOD  including  all you the ones your 
> talking about including water because of the acidic  rain. It would cause 
> more environmental damage than fossil fuels. .    . 

   The temp on the planet has risen more in 25 years that the past 20,000.  
When a piece of ice falls off the size of 
> Maryland that is serious.  HAARP could burn off our atmosphere if they screw 
> up.  The prime destroyer of the bio sphere in the Wrong RF's not fossil 
> fuels. Microwave towers  The ones you see on the E way The biosphere is a 
> living bactera that if the correct Rf's were used they would help rebuilt 
> it.       PLEASE wake up. 

  We as a civilization are going down the tubes  The rain forest alone if 
they go  Along with the other factors  We go down the tubes. There is no > 
> surviving that.one  When you look at the big picture you have to factor 
> many aspects now just a few.    How many of you know any of this.? Science 
> is clueless. in regard to  95% what I'm speaking about.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------

> Even pure oxygen is toxic under pressures reached by
> thirty feet below surface in any water.
> 
> Yes, reforestation is needed, but we need to stop the
> pollution of air and water even moreso.
> 
> Oh yes, in case anyone tries to copy David Letterman
> during the recent blizzard and ask what happened to
> global warming, I have one question: What part of
> "global" don't you understand?  Tuvalu is about to
> disappear as a nation because it is low and the ocean
> is rising from melting icecaps, and Bangladesh might
> not be far behind.
> 
> Paul Cardwell
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/20/0=
3 1:30:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpgachair yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It can be viewed as both.&nbsp;=
 Granted, plants require CO2<BR>
for photosynthesis and in so doing, produce free<BR>
oxygen which animals (including us) need.<BR>
<BR>
However, too much of anything is bad.&nbsp; With the<BR>
tropical rainforests being destroyed to provide just<BR>
five years of stock grazing (then the soil is<BR>
depleated and dessertification occurs), the<BR>
phytoplankton in the oceans being destroyed by<BR>
pollution, and fossil fuel producing more and more<BR>
CO2, then we do have too much and greenhouse effect</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">runs rampant.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He knows what he is talking about&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Now let me add to it&nbsp; THE navy with their communications system they=
 use with Subs. also&nbsp; is damaging plankton and sea life Plus you. <BLOC=
KQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px=
; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">They need to change frequency's, usi=
ng generators they use in the Medical field,&nbsp; the Gobi desert is claimi=
ng 500,000 acre's a year. By <B>2020</B> the Chinese will be the largest cre=
ators of green house gases currently they are third according to Time Mag. <=
/FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=20=
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Now factor in 8=
 billion people that is a 33% increase by 2040 the sky will dark grey basica=
lly all the time. By 2060 it </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">will be almost black. and 13 billion people over double wha=
t we have now. By 2020 we double electrical demand.from 10 trillion to 20 tr=
illion kilo watts. WE can not burn any fuels .<B>PERIOD&nbsp;</B> including&=
nbsp; all you the ones your talking about including water because of the aci=
dic&nbsp; rain. It would cause more environmental damage than fossil fuels.=20=
.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; . </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOC=
KQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; The temp on the=
 planet has risen more in 25 years that the past 20,000.&nbsp; When a piece=20=
of ice falls off the size of </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Maryland that is serious.&nbsp; HAARP could burn off our at=
mosphere if they screw up.&nbsp; The prime destroyer of the bio sphere in th=
e Wrong RF's not fossil fuels. Microwave towers&nbsp; The ones you see on th=
e E way The biosphere is a living bactera that if the correct Rf's were used=
 they would help rebuilt it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLEASE wake=
 up. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZ=
E=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; We as a civilization=20=
are going down the tubes&nbsp; The rain forest alone if they go&nbsp; Along=20=
with the other factors&nbsp; We go down the tubes. There is no <BLOCKQUOTE T=
YPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN=
-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">surviving that.one&nbsp; When you look at th=
e big picture you have to factor many aspects now just a few.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; How many of you know any of this.? Science is clueless. in regard to&nbs=
p; 95% what I'm speaking about.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even pure oxygen is toxic under=
 pressures reached by<BR>
thirty feet below surface in any water.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, reforestation is needed, but we need to stop the<BR>
pollution of air and water even moreso.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yes, in case anyone tries to copy David Letterman<BR>
during the recent blizzard and ask what happened to<BR>
global warming, I have one question: What part of<BR>
"global" don't you understand?&nbsp; Tuvalu is about to<BR>
disappear as a nation because it is low and the ocean<BR>
is rising from melting icecaps, and Bangladesh might<BR>
not be far behind.<BR>
<BR>
Paul Cardwell<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_75.ab738cb.2b86df98_boundary--

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: CF or space-based power
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:56:21 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <en1b5vo8ujjunjbqdnbdbb8lt25puodd3j 4ax.com>
References: <ia285vsl413jl3u6so39fpmogisl13eh61 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEELBDHAA.knagel@gis.net>
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:57:35 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>And a short circuit on a capacitor charged to 350KV at .25 Farads.
>This just due to the ionosphere.
>
>With a 200 ohm load, you'd match the earth's effective
>resistance due to T-storm activity. Any guesses on how
>much you could load it before diminishing global
>storm activity? >80 megawatts???

Previously I multiplied the fair weather current density by the surface area of the Earth, and the voltage on the capacitor, and came to about 500 MW.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Emergent and obsolete technology - anti-gravity versus  space elevators
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:16:29 +1100
Organization: Improving
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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030217185205.00a8a7f0@pop.mindspring.com> <003001c2d6f5$dc553b20$571c1c43@metrogr.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20030218092643.00af9420@pop.mindspring.com> <p5185v4mqqgc1u3ogj9qiadnc7n1425ooj@4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030219174241.00a8b728@pop.mindspring.com>
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:44:03 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>Space elevators are a pointless waste of money if you have anti-gravity 
>>technology.
>
>That's true, but as far as I know, anti-gravity technology does not exist. 
>For all I know it is impossible.

It isn't impossible, I've seen it in action (this is one of those times when the experiment is so undeniable that only one example is enough :).
(Though of course it won't be for you until you have seen it for yourself).

>
>Your statement is akin to saying that wind-turbines are pointless if you 
>have cold fusion technology, or -- for that matter -- sails are pointless 
>if you have steamships. True, but when you do not have them you 
>should  look at alternatives. 

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that the technology exists in a.o. US black projects. These indications alone are sufficient not to warrant expending any money on space elevators.
[snip]
>obsolete product. The mistake is when you concentrate resources on 
>innovations that can only be used with the obsolete product.

I agree, but in this case, the space elevator is the technology that is obsolete before it even gets off the ground (pun intended :).

[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:23:56 EST
Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] bla bla religious off-topic nonsense
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      Reasons please  

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        If you look at where the Vikings were based it was not that difficult 
to get to this part of the world. The same with Chinese Plus they were both 
sea faring cultures..  They found a foot print in Salt Lake they were telling 
me about when I was there in June that was the outline of a sandal that dates 
back 550 million years. I mean Hello  science does not want to face anything 
they may have to investigate because they may no be able to explain it. 

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Subject: LENR-CANR stats
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Jed:

Just curious:

What are the current stats of the Library?

# of papers
# of authors
# of countries represented


Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
www.coldfusioninfo.com 
--=====================_1559711953==.ALT
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<html>
<body>
Jed:<br><br>
Just curious:<br><br>
What are the current stats of the Library?<br><br>
# of papers<br>
# of authors<br>
# of countries represented<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steve Krivit<br>
Los Angeles, CA USA<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com<br>
www.coldfusioninfo.com</a></body>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 22:17:13 2003
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i was joking john..

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: stevek=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:07 AM
  Subject: LENR-CANR stats


  Jed:

  Just curious:

  What are the current stats of the Library?

  # of papers
  # of authors
  # of countries represented


  Steve Krivit
  Los Angeles, CA USA
  www.newenergytimes.com
  www.coldfusioninfo.com=20


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i was joking john..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
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  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
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  <A title=3Dstevek dlsi.net href=3D"mailto:stevek@dlsi.net">stevek</A> =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> LENR-CANR stats</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Jed:<BR><BR>Just curious:<BR><BR>What are the current =
stats of=20
  the Library?<BR><BR># of papers<BR># of authors<BR># of countries=20
  represented<BR><BR><X-SIGSEP>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 22:27:09 2003
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Sorry. Message to a friend got routed to Vo.

Colin
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Colin Quinney=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:15 AM
  Subject: Re: LENR-CANR stats


  i was joking john..

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: stevek=20
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
    Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:07 AM
    Subject: LENR-CANR stats


    Jed:

    Just curious:

    What are the current stats of the Library?

    # of papers
    # of authors
    # of countries represented


    Steve Krivit
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    www.newenergytimes.com
    www.coldfusioninfo.com=20


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry. Message to a friend got routed =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 21, 2003 =
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  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: LENR-CANR =
stats</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i was joking john..</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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    <A title=3Dstevek dlsi.net =
href=3D"mailto:stevek dlsi.net">stevek</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
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    <DIV><BR></DIV>Jed:<BR><BR>Just curious:<BR><BR>What are the current =
stats=20
    of the Library?<BR><BR># of papers<BR># of authors<BR># of countries =

    represented<BR><BR><X-SIGSEP>
    <P></X-SIGSEP>Steve Krivit<BR>Los Angeles, CA USA<BR><A=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 20 22:28:22 2003
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Subject: RE: LENR-CANR stats
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Hi Steve.

Try a search of ".pdf" from the google search frame.
I get 132 documents. By the way, the conversion
filter in google makes a pretty good html version of
the papers, huh?

K.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: stevek [mailto:stevek dlsi.net]
  Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:07 AM
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  Subject: LENR-CANR stats


  Jed:

  Just curious:

  What are the current stats of the Library?

  # of papers
  # of authors
  # of countries represented


  Steve Krivit
  Los Angeles, CA USA
  www.newenergytimes.com
  www.coldfusioninfo.com 


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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D787284206-21022003>Hi=20
Steve.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D787284206-21022003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D787284206-21022003>Try a=20
search of ".pdf" from the google search frame.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D787284206-21022003>I get=20
132 documents. By the way, the conversion</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D787284206-21022003>filter=20
in google makes a pretty good html version of</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D787284206-21022003>the=20
papers, huh?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D787284206-21022003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D787284206-21022003>K.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> stevek=20
  [mailto:stevek dlsi.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 21, 2003 =
1:07=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> LENR-CANR=20
  stats<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Jed:<BR><BR>Just curious:<BR><BR>What are =
the=20
  current stats of the Library?<BR><BR># of papers<BR># of authors<BR># =
of=20
  countries represented<BR><BR><X-SIGSEP>
  <P></X-SIGSEP>Steve Krivit<BR>Los Angeles, CA USA<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com<BR>www.col=
dfusioninfo.com</A>=20
  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 00:18:27 2003
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:17:55 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Sonofusion, "beta aether" and jounce
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Jones Breene Posted;

Marvelous post Jones!

>If so, then take the next step: if one could convert ultrasonic jerk 
>into *jounce,* the fourth derivative of position, would it then be 
>possible to create massive commercial scale sonofusion?

What is the fourth derivative?

>'spherical convergence' itself already converting some of the 
>ultrasonic jerk into jounce?

I take it that jounce isn't a made up word, Hum, my spell checker accepted it.

>
>  its like the lever of  Archimedes, "Give me a lever long enough and 
>a place upon which to stand in space and I will lift the world."

What you really need is a fulcrum.

>Spherical convergence may another way of expressing the "triaxial 
>tension," and the "beta aether" phenomena that was reported in a 
>recent issue of IE by Frank Grimer. "Beta-aether"  is likely to be 
>very similar to what is often called the zero point field or ZPF 
>or the Casimir force. Frank believes after years of work in 
>structural engineering that much (or all) of what we consider to be 
>the inherent strength of materials is in fact the result of what can 
>best be described as subatomic "pressure" which is *external* to the 
>material . He has interesting proof.

I'm going to have to look that article up!

>LENR effects, is in the "soft" x-ray energy range - that is, in the 
>10s of keV, exactly what one expects to find from k-shell 
>interactions and Auger cascades. The precise mechanics of such a 
>k-shell interaction could involve Casimir-type pressures at 
>subnanometer dimensions acting on valence or free electrons in such 
>a way as to accelerate the electrons into inner orbitals of adjacent 
>atoms - following which an Auger cascade creates further EM 
>radiation. If enough radiation is focused you get D+D fusion, which 
>has been proven to occur at a threshold of about 20 keV (the 
>so-called Boltzmann's tail of the Maxwellian energy distribution)

Hum, I take it that energy emissions in the 10 KEV range have been 
opserved? The Auger cascades produce photon emissions? What is 
Boltzmann's tail?

>hen there are at least two things I would look at:
>
>1) First use a spherical reactor cell.

Makes sense to me.

>2) Use multiple focused piezo transducers, evenly spaced around the 
>sphere, like the 12 in a dodecagon. Precision is important. The 
>small nuclear devices that depend on convergence, mentioned above, 
>are built to tolerances higher than the Swiss watch.
>

I'm surprised that such an obvious design wasn't tried.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 05:44:57 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:42:54 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] It is difficult to present 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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        IT is difficult to present advanced totally different operational new 
futuristic engineering concepts when your not Tech. inclined.  But I can send 
the Tech. types to our Tech. people But many of the Tech. types do not want 
to speak with them.  They just want to hassle me for not being a tech type 
when they cannot grasp the new evolutionary concepts 

.  When I do not explain past the concept level because all we give out is 
what it uses and the results that are derived from what it uses. Plus 
provided demos. There not bus types and are not going to the next step anyway 
as bus types are by seeking involvement.  Which is all I'm seeking is 
business types. Possibly like I thought you were George. I will explain the 
concept only to Tech. types because that is my job but I cannot explain tech. 
details. 

ENG> 99% of the time work for someone they do not have there own companies.  
All I seek is bus involvement situations Eng. and Phy. 95% do not  understand 
the concepts.  Bus types do not care if they understand.all they care if it 
functions as advertised and can it be a safe profitable product. Eng. become  
real irate because they cannot understand because they have no math to 
explain it and they thought their math would explain everything.

 When they find out there math will not help them they 95% of the time cop an 
attitude. Companies always want us to deal with their Eng. side first because 
they think there people may be able to figure out our situations and steal 
them. But when they find out they cannot. as GM found out they as in GM's 
case will add or reassign 1000 Eng. To work on alternative projects. Rather 
than deal with us 

 I contacted BMW because they do not appear to have that attitude like GM 
does. They appear to be seeking involvement with advanced situations like 
ours. Which is very refreshing to see that there are major companies out 
there like that?  There are not any here in America like that.

 But I find that attitude in many foreign companies Because we have and are 
going to have new propulsion technologies. WE have one of two choices and 
they are deal with auto companies or create our auto CO. and that is a royal 
pain in the ass attempting that, but we may be forced to.  BUT it is the last 
thing we want to do. THEY will not be able to compete on the Manuf. or 
propulsion level. that we can see. And if they forces us we will. 

Since we have that ability we do not have to play there games. That they 
invariable attempt. They always want to try you. I did not think I would see 
that in Toyota but I did they were just like GM. When I was  discussing 
situations  with their Chief legal council   Dan Fuchs here in the US in Ann 
Arbor MI. He said get a patent and I said we will only have trademarks he did 
not know what to say then. 

I know as Dan Fuchs  does a big Corp can change the screws and steal a patent 
and if your not on their level your not going to be able to do anything about 
it. Since they changed our patent laws they are worthless. NASA has key to 
the back door of the patent office. They are the biggest thief's of all. They 
can get a national security restriction put on a patent then they are free to 
with it what they want.      

I did not see or expect any results going in when I was rattling the auto 
CO's cages. I was only looking for the Experience that I could gain by 
dealing with them. It is called a learning process. That is the only way you 
can figure out their weeknesses whitch is what Iook for,  what I can use 
against them.   THere giant Ego's will get them every time is their prime 
weekness. But to figure that out you have to attempt to deal with them   

 Tony Lee a vice president HQ. Staff Eng.  at Delphi was real evasive on 
phone after we met with there chief scientist.  It was plain to see he 
understood if the CO conducted business with us they would not need 95% of 
there 5400 ENG. YOU should see the 7 page NDA agreement Ford sent me.  After 
they called about one of my E mails It is totally laughable. I think it is on 
file. Do you want to see it. ?  I told them they could sign ours and they 
could stick theirs were the sun does not shine. God as GM and them think they 
are did not like being told where to go.  

  

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:23:13 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]Someone investigares but backwards HELLO 
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In a message dated 2/21/03 2:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerleneu pakistanmail.com writes:


> Well, the Electrifying Times article
> (http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/confidentialtech.html) by Bruce
> Meland claims that the transformer worked in a demonstration. David
> Roach, a technician at Mott Community College told me that it appeared
> that the transformer converted standard power to three phase power.
> The commonality in their reports is that they were both just
> witnessing, not actually testing the equipment themselves. So I'll
> continue to withhold judgment on whether or not you are delusional
> until you actually produce something besides hype. I don't need to
> wait to know that you are both rude and semiliterate. If you ARE
> connected with a really valuable innovation, that's tragic; an
> abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its development by years!
> 
> Jerlene
>   REPLY    YOUR  are the one that coped an attitude in the beginning.    
Well, someone that investigates Thank You but totally ass backwards but at 
least they investigate.   Why not speak with the horses mouth first then the 
horses back side.?  DA  Which would make real sense.   NO that is to easy   
It has to be complicated     FYI   MORON  I asked Dave to bring test meters 
but he did not      Infinite Energy mag. tested  we have them on tape and 
they are totally lost. Even after they with our instructions built an 
obsolete version. 

I was able to make myself a millionaire business man by being an ignoramus 
and that is all that counts. PLUS I have been able to create the Bus. side to 
go with the Tech; side. When no one else could. Not bad for being 
semiliterate. Where the f--k do you get off anyway with you as-hole attitude 
.? 

Your a complete  ass backwards investigating no body as far as I'm concerned. 
Unless your going to become a Bus. contact. If not do not bore me. With your 
crystal ball driven judgment calls. You just dislayed your glaring ignorance 
Probably because of your piss poor conformity taught EDU. that taught you to 
use the ass backwards procedures that you used. MORON   Next idiot please 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/21/0=
3 2:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerleneu pakistanmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Well, the Electrifying Times ar=
ticle<BR>
(http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/confidentialtech.html) by Bruce<BR>
Meland claims that the transformer worked in a demonstration. David<BR>
Roach, a technician at Mott Community College told me that it appeared<BR>
that the transformer converted standard power to three phase power.<BR>
The commonality in their reports is that they were both just<BR>
witnessing, not actually testing the equipment themselves. So I'll<BR>
continue to withhold judgment on whether or not you are delusional<BR>
until you actually produce something besides hype. I don't need to<BR>
wait to know that you are both rude and semiliterate. If you ARE<BR>
connected with a really valuable innovation, that's tragic; an<BR>
abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its development by years!<BR>
<BR>
Jerlene<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOUR&nbsp; are the one that cope=
d an attitude in the beginning.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Well, someone that investi=
gates Thank You but totally ass backwards but at least they investigate.&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Why not speak with the horses mouth first then the horses back side=
.?&nbsp; DA&nbsp; Which would make real sense.&nbsp;&nbsp; NO that is to eas=
y&nbsp;&nbsp; It has to be complicated&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FYI&nbsp;&nbs=
p; MORON&nbsp; I asked Dave to bring test meters but he did not&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Infinite Energy mag. tested&nbsp; we have them on tape and=
 they are totally lost. Even after they with our instructions built an obsol=
ete version. <BR>
<BR>
I was able to make myself a millionaire business man by being an ignoramus a=
nd that is all that counts. PLUS I have been able to create the Bus. side to=
 go with the Tech; side. When no one else could. Not bad for being semiliter=
ate. Where the f--k do you get off anyway with you as-hole attitude .? <BR>
<BR>
Your a complete&nbsp; ass backwards investigating no body as far as I'm conc=
erned. Unless your going to become a Bus. contact. If not do not bore me. Wi=
th your crystal ball driven judgment calls. You just dislayed your glaring i=
gnorance Probably because of your piss poor conformity taught EDU. that taug=
ht you to use the ass backwards procedures that you used. MORON&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
Next idiot please <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 07:01:33 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d0.35bd14f.2b8798b0 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:58:56 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] It is difficult to present
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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           HELLO  Don't you get it I do the marketing   You want questions 
answered call. If it is a businees call  otherwise do not waste my time.  I'm 
only looking for Bus. involvement situations.  I care less about the SCI. 
Comm. they can go piss up a rope for all i care.    I need them for zero. 
Because if our sitiuations function as advertised they are ZERO's 

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:08:26 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Sonofusion, "beta aether" and jounce
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Thomas Malloy asked,

> What is the fourth derivative?
> 
> >'spherical convergence' itself already converting some of the 
> >ultrasonic jerk into jounce?
> 
> I take it that jounce isn't a made up word, Hum, my spell checker accepted it.

Do you mean, what is 'derivative' in general or the fourth derivative, in particular? And, yes, aside from its co-opted meaning in these posts , 'jounce' simply means a 'sudden impact'.... Dirty Harry notwithstanding.

Hopefully, you were exposed to a little bit of calculus in university. The concept of 'derivative' is at the core of calculus and modern mathematics. Wilhelm Gottfried Leibniz (1646-1716) and Isaac Newton (1642-1727) are considered the inventors of Calculus, so its been around for a while. 

The definition of the derivative can be approached in two different ways. One is geometrical (as a slope of a curve) and the other one is physical (as a rate of change). 

Often we are interested in position wrt time ( 'wrt' means "with respect to"). Formal mathematics often uses the term 'separation' rather than 'position', but this adds a layer of confusion IMHO. Nevertheless, the derivative of separation (s) with respect to time (t) is ds/dt, where  ds infers some kind of movement between objects. This movement between objects introduces the concept of acceleration, velocity and then jerk (j) and jounce (jj) also called 'snap' or jerk-jerk.  The fourth derivative is d4s/dt4 = d3v/dt3 = d2a/dt2 = jj. Separation by now is a mere abstraction and any sense of separation or actual position is little more than a theoretical pipe dream, and a few of us on vortex love to play around with them. A fair proportion of advanced technology started out as someone's pipe dream. At this stage, however, the concept of 'postion wrt time' is starting to get jerked around pretty badly, thrown into the fourth dimension, so to speak. Our human senses can no longer cope with what is happening, and those who got turned off with the simple ds/dt have long since thrown up their hands, or just thrown up.

A few days ago, I tried to introduce 'jerk' and 'jounce' in a humorous way, starting with the rather famous internet poster, John Baez, and one of his sites:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html
This piece was not written by Baez but by Philip Gibbs and Stephanie Gragert

If guess introducing 'jerk' and 'jounce' this way was 'a little too cute' but it did eventually get your interest, no? Here is the excerpt again:

What is the term used for the third derivative of position?

It is well known that the first derivative of position (symbol x) with respect to time is velocity (symbol v) and the second is acceleration (symbol a).  It is a little less well known that the third derivative, i.e. the rate of change of acceleration, is technically known as *jerk* (symbol j).  
 
Jerk is a vector but may also be used loosely as a scalar quantity because there is not a separate term for the magnitude of jerk analogous to speed for magnitude of velocity. In the UK "jolt" has sometimes been used instead of jerk.

Many other terms have appeared in individual cases for the third derivative, including pulse, impulse, bounce, surge, shock and super-acceleration.  These are generally less appropriate than jerk and jolt, either because they are used in engineering to mean other things or because the common English use of the word does not fit the meaning so well.  For example impulse is more commonly used in physics to mean a change of momentum imparted by a force of limited duration [Belanger 1847] and surge is used by electricians to mean something like rate of change of current or voltage.  The terms jerk and jolt are therefore preferred for rate of change of acceleration.  Jerk appears to be the more common of the two. 
 
As its name suggests, jerk is important when evaluating the destructive effect of motion on a mechanism or the discomfort caused to passengers in a vehicle.  The movement of delicate instruments needs to be kept within specified limits of jerk as well as acceleration to avoid damage.  
 
Some space engineers are said to have even gone as far as specifying limits on the magnitude of the fourth derivative.  There is no universally accepted name for the fourth derivative, i.e. the rate of change of jerk, The term jounce has been used but it has the drawback of using the same initial letter as jerk so it is not clear which symbol to use.  Another less serious suggestion is snap (symbol s), crackle (symbol c) and pop (symbol p) for the 4th, 5th and 6th derivatives respectively.  Higher derivatives do not yet have names because they do not come up very often.

END of relevant quote.

At one level, it was intended to be mildly humorous, but it is also provocative from the standpoint mentioned earlier, i.e. the possibility of energy multiplication at higher dimensions.

Jones

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:47:49 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]Someone investigares but backwards HELLO 
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In a message dated 2/21/2003 9:25:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

> If you ARE
> connected with a really valuable innovation, that's tragic; an
> abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its development by years!
> 

This is standard debunking policy.  Companies and governments intentionally 
have their best new high tech ideas presented to the public in a very 
hostile, frenzied, and primitive or unprofessional manner, so that others, 
especially academics, will not believe them or support them, so that the 
company can profit from the idea alone, if should become successful.   After 
parsing out all of the superfluous and violent language, Mr. Cary presented 
very useful facts, which an expert could use, but which would not be accepted 
by academia unit restated in a more professional and mathematical manner.   
The government often has frenzied debunkers shadow the real inventors to make 
them look bad as a form of debunking propaganda. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/21/2003 9:25:52 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If you ARE<BR>
connected with a really valuable innovation, that's tragic; an<BR>
abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its development by years!<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
This is standard debunking policy.&nbsp; Companies and governments intention=
ally have their best new high tech ideas presented to the public in a very h=
ostile, frenzied, and primitive or unprofessional manner, so that others, es=
pecially academics, will not believe them or support them, so that the compa=
ny can profit from the idea alone, if should become successful.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
After parsing out all of the superfluous and violent language, Mr. Cary pres=
ented very useful facts, which an expert could use, but which would not be a=
ccepted by academia unit restated in a more professional and mathematical ma=
nner.&nbsp;&nbsp; The government often has frenzied debunkers shadow the rea=
l inventors to make them look bad as a form of debunking propaganda. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 08:17:25 2003
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:15:03 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR stats
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030220211410.00b11778 mail.dlsi.net>
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stevek wrote:

>What are the current stats of the Library?
>
># of papers

After I finish today's uploads there will be 156 papers in 159 files (some 
take more than one file), plus 1 critique


># of authors

71. See attached list.


># of countries represented

Don't know.

As of yesterday, total downloads of Acrobat files stood at 33,002.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Principal authors in papers on file at LENR-CANR.org:

Arata
Asami
Bass
Beaudette
Biberian
Biberian
Bockris
Botta
Bressani
Bush
Case
Castano
Castellano
Cecil
Celani
Cellucci
Chicea
Chien
Chubb
Chubb
Cisbani
Claytor
Cravens
Dash
De Ninno
ERAB
Fleischmann
Gerischer
Gluck
Goodstein
Gozzi
Hagelstein
Hansen
Iazzi
Iwamura
Jones
Karabut
Kasagi
Lipson
Lonchampt
Luo
Mallove
McKubre
Melich
Miles
Miley
Mizuno
Mosier-Boss
Nagel
Oriani
Oya
Packham
Parmenter
Platt
Plotkin
Pons
Reifenschweiler
Rothwell
Roulette
Sankaranarayanan
Savvatimova
Scaramuzzi
Schwinger
Shamoo
Shanahan
Shyam
Storms
Szpak
Uchikawa
Warner
Will


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Subject: Debunking new ideas
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>In a message dated 2/21/2003 9:25:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
>JCarey9622 aol.com writes:
>
>>If you ARE
>>connected with a really valuable innovation, that's tragic; an
>>abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its development by years!
>>
>
>
>This is standard debunking policy.  Companies and governments 
>intentionally have their best new high tech ideas presented to the 
>public in a very hostile, frenzied, and primitive or unprofessional 
>manner, so that others, especially academics, will not believe them 
>or support them, so that the company can profit from the idea alone, 
>if should become successful.   After parsing out all of the 
>superfluous and violent language, Mr. Cary presented very useful 
>facts, which an expert could use, but which would not be accepted by 
>academia unit restated in a more professional and mathematical 
>manner.   The government often has frenzied debunkers shadow the 
>real inventors to make them look bad as a form of debunking 
>propaganda.

Hum, debunking eh? They couldn't have picked a more perfect person 
than Jack Carey. Hostile, frenzied, and primitive, and 
unprofessional, are apt metaphors for Jack's presentation.

I'm curious, Tom, what "facts" that Jack presented did you find 
useful? The Tackyon explanation? Other than that, I don't recall 
anything else that he said making any sense at all.

http://www.chickenjoke.com/


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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Debunking new ideas</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">In a message
dated 2/21/2003 9:25:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com
writes:</font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1"></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">If you
ARE<br>
connected with a really valuable innovation, that's tragic; an<br>
abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its development by
years!</font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1"></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" color="#000000"><br>
<font size="-1"><br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">This is standard debunking policy.&nbsp; Companies and
governments intentionally have their best new high tech ideas
presented to the public in a very hostile, frenzied, and primitive or
unprofessional manner, so that others, especially academics, will not
believe them or support them, so that the company can profit from the
idea alone, if should become successful.&nbsp;&nbsp; After parsing out
all of the superfluous and violent language, Mr. Cary presented very
useful facts, which an expert could use, but which would not be
accepted by academia unit restated in a more professional and
mathematical manner.&nbsp;&nbsp; The government often has frenzied
debunkers shadow the real inventors to make them look bad as a form of
debunking propaganda.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Hum, debunking eh? They couldn't have picked a more perfect
person than Jack Carey. Hostile, frenzied, and primitive, and
unprofessional, are apt metaphors for Jack's presentation.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I'm curious, Tom, what &quot;facts&quot; that Jack presented did
you find useful? The Tackyon explanation? Other than that, I don't
recall anything else that he said making any sense at all.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>http://www.chickenjoke.com/</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <109.2073bc21.2b87b411 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:55:45 EST
Subject: Re: Jed made the offer in a mail to someone 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, temalloy@metro.lakes.com
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          Of 10,000 for a machine that would be OU.     If he wants to call 
it that fine. He had offered me 20,000 for a lighter that operated on water  
On the phone 18 months ago  IT is not for sale  SO THE phase converter  I 
figure is worth 25,000 to him after  all it proves by its operational aspects 
the first new electrical theory in century. AND blows totally out of the 
water current thinking     

 """"DO YOU HAVE A clairification NOW ?""""""  

 WHY DO YOU WANT IT ???   THEN MAKE ME AN OFFER  THat would depend that it 
functions as advertised     JED would have no rights  BUT could do as he 
pleased with it. We agree with that he could. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 09:36:22 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:31:58 EST
Subject: Re: Debunking new ideas
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      HELLO      It IS NOT going to make sense to you,  common sense should 
tell you that but I see very little out here Because our school systems 
attempted to program that out of us and i see they succeded in many cases. 
That is obvious by the mails I see out here,  very few have any sense at all  
  Because   HELLO it is new knowledge and you have to investigate new 
knowledge before you can understand it.   It is not in your books   WHY do I 
have to be the one that has to deal with all this moronic thinking 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 09:55:43 2003
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:51:50 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
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At 7:13 AM 2/21/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>This thinking is to me still nonsense!  The photon has rest mass zero and a
>>known momentum.  There should be no "additional" momentum exchange.
>
>Precisely "should". It is this assumption that the experiment was designed
>to test.


But the premise conclusion is false:

>if light had mass, the rotating balance would
>suffer an additional tiny torque.  This represents a 20-fold improvement
>over previous limits on photon mass.  Photon mass is expected to be zero by
>most physicists, but this is an assumption which must be checked
>experimentally.


No "additional" momentum must be carried by the photon for the photon to
have and/or carry mass and yet have rest mass zero

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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This exchange is getting tiresome.  I put Carey on my kill
list, which has helped a lot, but people I want to read keep
responding to this nut.  Please take this nonsense somewhere
else!

Ed

thomas malloy wrote:

>> In a message dated 2/21/2003 9:25:52 AM Eastern Standard
>> Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:
>>
>> > If you ARE
>> > connected with a really valuable innovation, that's
>> > tragic; an
>> > abrasive ignoramus like you could retard its
>> > development by years!
>>
>>
>>
>
>> This is standard debunking policy.  Companies and
>> governments intentionally have their best new high tech
>> ideas presented to the public in a very hostile,
>> frenzied, and primitive or unprofessional manner, so
>> that others, especially academics, will not believe them
>> or support them, so that the company can profit from the
>> idea alone, if should become successful.   After parsing
>> out all of the superfluous and violent language, Mr.
>> Cary presented very useful facts, which an expert could
>> use, but which would not be accepted by academia unit
>> restated in a more professional and mathematical
>> manner.   The government often has frenzied debunkers
>> shadow the real inventors to make them look bad as a
>> form of debunking propaganda.
>
>  Hum, debunking eh? They couldn't have picked a more
> perfect person than Jack Carey. Hostile, frenzied, and
> primitive, and unprofessional, are apt metaphors for
> Jack's presentation. I'm curious, Tom, what "facts" that
> Jack presented did you find useful? The Tackyon
> explanation? Other than that, I don't recall anything else
> that he said making any sense at
> all. http://www.chickenjoke.com/

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<html>
This exchange is getting tiresome.&nbsp; I put Carey on my kill list, which
has helped a lot, but people I want to read keep responding to this nut.&nbsp;
Please take this nonsense somewhere else!
<p>Ed
<p>thomas malloy wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>In a message
dated 2/21/2003 9:25:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:</font></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>If you ARE</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>connected with a really valuable innovation,
that's tragic; an</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>abrasive ignoramus like you could
retard its development by years!</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"><font color="#000000"><font size=-1>This
is standard debunking policy.&nbsp; Companies and governments intentionally
have their best new high tech ideas presented to the public in a very hostile,
frenzied, and primitive or unprofessional manner, so that others, especially
academics, will not believe them or support them, so that the company can
profit from the idea alone, if should become successful.&nbsp;&nbsp; After
parsing out all of the superfluous and violent language, Mr. Cary presented
very useful facts, which an expert could use, but which would not be accepted
by academia unit restated in a more professional and mathematical manner.&nbsp;&nbsp;
The government often has frenzied debunkers shadow the real inventors to
make them look bad as a form of debunking propaganda.</font></font></font></blockquote>
&nbsp;Hum, debunking eh? They couldn't have picked a more perfect person
than Jack Carey. Hostile, frenzied, and primitive, and unprofessional,
are apt metaphors for Jack's presentation.&nbsp;I'm curious, Tom, what
"facts" that Jack presented did you find useful? The Tackyon explanation?
Other than that, I don't recall anything else that he said making any sense
at all.&nbsp;<A HREF="http://www.chickenjoke.com/">http://www.chickenjoke.com/</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;</blockquote>
</html>

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:19:15 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: OUCH  meme-to-gene transistion
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Although the "meme" is the cultural corollary to the gene, I would like =
to find more (or any better documented) proof that the information =
carried in memes is somehow transferable to genes. BTW it is thought =
that there is a "meme field" but you will have to ferret out the details =
from Rupert Sheldrake on what the evidence consists of for this field as =
my memory has faded a bit on that one. Perhaps it is similar to ZPF.

Years ago, I had an English Sheepdog that I bought from a breeder. This =
breed of dogs have stubby tails, like a Scottie. The breeder told me =
that for centuries, most English Sheepdog puppies, like the sheep they =
tend, were born with long tails and these were 'docked' at about three =
months of age. But that in modern times half of an average litter or =
more were born with stubby tails from day one. For years, I have tried =
to confirm this scientifically - to no avail. Had it not come from the =
breeder himself, I would write it off as urban legend.

In today's science wire, this story bites a little closer to home, if it =
is related to meme-to-gene transference.

JAKARTA, Indonesia -- A mother has claimed that a "genie" circumcised =
her 10-month-old son while she was cooking breakfast, the state news =
agency Antara reported.   [I hope Menudo was not offered for lunch]

More than 90 percent of Indonesia's 210 million are Muslim, though many =
still believe in sprits and the unseen world. According to Islamic =
tradition, Indonesian boys are normally circumcised, usually when they =
reach the age of 6 or 7.=20
 =20
The family immediately suspected it was the work of a genie, belief in =
which is widespread in Indonesia. They summoned a local shaman to the =
house who confirmed their suspicions. The report did not say whether the =
toddler, Riyan Abdullah, experienced any complications as a result of =
the operation.=20

How does this relate to Cold Fusion?

Is it a coincidence that researchers who have a strong belief in the =
validity of the phenomenon, have more success with the experiment? Or =
did that belief follow the success, or both - or were they predisposed =
to both success and belief because of some other overriding cultural =
meme (like dislike of authority) ?

Jones
 
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Although the "meme" is the cultural corollary to the gene,&nbsp;I=20
would&nbsp;like to find&nbsp;more (or any better documented)&nbsp;proof =
that the=20
information carried in memes is somehow transferable to genes. BTW it is =
thought=20
that there is a "meme field" but you will have to ferret out the details =
from=20
Rupert Sheldrake on what the evidence consists of for this field as my =
memory=20
has faded a bit on that one. Perhaps it is similar to ZPF.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Years ago, I had an English Sheepdog that I bought from a breeder. =
This=20
breed of dogs have stubby tails, like a Scottie. The breeder told me =
that for=20
centuries, most English Sheepdog puppies, like the sheep they tend, were =
born=20
with long tails and these were 'docked' at about three months of age. =
But that=20
in modern times half of an average&nbsp;litter or more were born=20
with&nbsp;stubby tails from day one. For years, I have tried to confirm =
this=20
scientifically - to no avail. Had it not come from the breeder himself, =
I would=20
write it off as urban legend.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In today's science wire, this story bites a little closer to home, =
if it is=20
related to meme-to-gene transference.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>JAKARTA, Indonesia -- A mother has claimed that a "genie" =
circumcised her=20
10-month-old son while she was cooking breakfast, the state news agency =
Antara=20
reported.&nbsp;&nbsp; [I hope&nbsp;Menudo was not offered for =
lunch]</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>More than 90 percent of Indonesia's 210 million are Muslim, though =
many=20
still believe in sprits and the unseen world. According to Islamic =
tradition,=20
Indonesian boys are normally circumcised, usually when they reach the =
age of 6=20
or 7.&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp; <BR>The family immediately suspected it was the =
work of a=20
genie, belief in which is widespread in Indonesia. They summoned a local =
shaman=20
to the house who confirmed their suspicions. The report did not say =
whether the=20
toddler, Riyan Abdullah, experienced any complications as a result of =
the=20
operation.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>How does this relate to Cold Fusion?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is it a coincidence that researchers who have a strong belief=20
in&nbsp;the&nbsp;validity of the phenomenon, have more success with the=20
experiment?&nbsp;Or did that belief follow the success, or both - or =
were they=20
predisposed to both success and belief because of some other overriding =
cultural=20
meme (like dislike of authority) ?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones<BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:11:16 EST
Subject: For many of you Your fate 
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           This time because of the Sci. comm attitude towards inventive 
minds witch is always negetive.   All they will see is demos that prove new 
evolutionary theories. nothing else. Once the wind is gone out there sails 
and there dead in the water. 

Then I will blow holes in the sides of their boats and watch them with glee 
in my eyes . While I'm  throwing the party of the century sink below the 
waves in  the cold dark foreboding sea of ignorance. Clinging to their theory 
books and listening to them spout it until they  become water logged and 
support them no longer . 

   That is their fate Then finally positive changes can start to occur. And 
we can possibly evolve as a civilization. Otherwise we will not.  If I was 
them I would hate me to. But the ones with the open minds will evolve. Those 
that do not have them will not. The Babblings of Jack       I'm sorry but I 
become bored very easily and I have to have fun at someone's  expense  Your 
elected    

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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:18:52 EST
Subject: The nonsense comes from you
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         I speak of innovative new evolutionary  concepts that have been 
demonstrated operational to colleges and all i see is what i consider moronic 
 nonsense no investigating attitudes in return HELLO 

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Subject: RE: OUCH  meme-to-gene transistion
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Hi Jones.

Perhaps the Breeder is just noticing the effect of controlled
evolution. Obviously, we have selectively breed the dogs
for short tails, if they have long tails they're "clipped"
and short tailed dogs are more prized. Over the space
of several generations, the result will be small tails.

The clipping is not causing the effect, rather, it's the
meme of "short tailed dog is good" which is exerting its
influence on the gene, by way of selective breeding.

Another example? Men seem to prefer blondes. Women dye their
hair, so by your notion we should eventually become a
nation of blondes. It may happen, but it will be due
to the increased chances of a blonde couple breeding
and not Ms. Clairol. The effect of dyeing is to promote
the breeding habit. Will the short term strategy of
"dyeing for increased breeding potential" ( which will
fool unsuspecting males into mating with a brunette ) overrule the
long term effect of increased popularity for the blonde
gene?

I agree that a relation between meme and gene exists,
just not in the fanciful "morphic field" of sheldrake et al.
Didn't the Russian Lysenko (sp?) also posit such a thing?

K.


General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to
fluoridating water, why there are studies underway to fluoridate salt,
flour, fruit juices, soup,
sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
Group Captain Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.
Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?
Mandrake: Aye, no, no. I don't Jack.
Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six Mandrake. How
does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? Its incredibly
obvious
isn't it. A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids
without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice.
That's the way your
hard-core Commie works.
Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you
first...become...well, develop this theory?
Ripper: Well, I, uh...I...I...first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.
Mandrake: Hmm.
Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue...a feeling of emptiness
followed. Luckily I...I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss
of essence.
Mandrake: Hmm.
Ripper: I can assure you that it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women
uh...women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid
women, Mandrake.
Mandrake: No.
Ripper: But I...I do deny them my essence.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:19 PM
To: vortex
Subject: OUCH meme-to-gene transistion


Although the "meme" is the cultural corollary to the gene, I would like to
find more (or any better documented) proof that the information carried in
memes is somehow transferable to genes. BTW it is thought that there is a
"meme field" but you will have to ferret out the details from Rupert
Sheldrake on what the evidence consists of for this field as my memory has
faded a bit on that one. Perhaps it is similar to ZPF.

Years ago, I had an English Sheepdog that I bought from a breeder. This
breed of dogs have stubby tails, like a Scottie. The breeder told me that
for centuries, most English Sheepdog puppies, like the sheep they tend, were
born with long tails and these were 'docked' at about three months of age.
But that in modern times half of an average litter or more were born with
stubby tails from day one. For years, I have tried to confirm this
scientifically - to no avail. Had it not come from the breeder himself, I
would write it off as urban legend.

In today's science wire, this story bites a little closer to home, if it is
related to meme-to-gene transference.

JAKARTA, Indonesia -- A mother has claimed that a "genie" circumcised her
10-month-old son while she was cooking breakfast, the state news agency
Antara reported.   [I hope Menudo was not offered for lunch]

More than 90 percent of Indonesia's 210 million are Muslim, though many
still believe in sprits and the unseen world. According to Islamic
tradition, Indonesian boys are normally circumcised, usually when they reach
the age of 6 or 7.

The family immediately suspected it was the work of a genie, belief in which
is widespread in Indonesia. They summoned a local shaman to the house who
confirmed their suspicions. The report did not say whether the toddler,
Riyan Abdullah, experienced any complications as a result of the operation.

How does this relate to Cold Fusion?

Is it a coincidence that researchers who have a strong belief in the
validity of the phenomenon, have more success with the experiment? Or did
that belief follow the success, or both - or were they predisposed to both
success and belief because of some other overriding cultural meme (like
dislike of authority) ?

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 11:59:02 2003
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     Murdoch is correct again as usual  he makes some class act sharp calls. 
Not to many people impress me Murdoch but you do. FYI    When I was in 
Delphi's world HQ tech. center in the fall of 2001  Where I use to work in 
the late 70's There labs did not appear to be conducting any research to 
speak of. 

The center is right down the street from one of my 3 stores in two city's. I 
seen several people I knew also. They had purchased some fuel cell Tech. in 
Calif. But Toyota who has the best Eng. on the planet has spend the money on 
R&D but my money is on the Koreans. Not the China because of their 
restrictive political system.

 If the Russians had the money they would be at the top of the heap. Because 
they have the sharpest  sci. minds on the planet. They laugh at us and 
rightly so. because they are not ignorant enough to be theory based. As our 
Sci. comm is They were smart enough to figure out that way did not work.

  FYI  They teach Trig in the third grade. I listen up when those boys speak. 
Because you can learn a great deal from them. . The name of the game is 
evolving and that is accomplished by learning new knowledge.  You will not 
unless you do. That is how evolution functions. 95% of you People you were 
only taught what the edu. wanted you to know. which it appears was very 
little. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 12:05:08 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OUCH  meme-to-gene transistion
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> Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue...a feeling of emptiness
> followed. Luckily I...I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss
> of essence.

> Mandrake: Hmm.

What? Colonel,  "Bat" Guano, if that really is your name: ... Do you know who you're gonna have to answer to for that remark?? The Coca-Cola Company, that's who! 

Now, Strangelove, there's a real meme-in-the-making....


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Jones Beene wrote:

> Although the "meme" is the cultural corollary to the gene,
> I would like to find more (or any better documented) proof
> that the information carried in memes is somehow
> transferable to genes. BTW it is thought that there is a
> "meme field" but you will have to ferret out the details
> from Rupert Sheldrake on what the evidence consists of for
> this field as my memory has faded a bit on that one.
> Perhaps it is similar to ZPF. Years ago, I had an English
> Sheepdog that I bought from a breeder. This breed of dogs
> have stubby tails, like a Scottie. The breeder told me
> that for centuries, most English Sheepdog puppies, like
> the sheep they tend, were born with long tails and these
> were 'docked' at about three months of age. But that in
> modern times half of an average litter or more were born
> with stubby tails from day one. For years, I have tried to
> confirm this scientifically - to no avail. Had it not come
> from the breeder himself, I would write it off as urban
> legend. In today's science wire, this story bites a little
> closer to home, if it is related to meme-to-gene
> transference. JAKARTA, Indonesia -- A mother has claimed
> that a "genie" circumcised her 10-month-old son while she
> was cooking breakfast, the state news agency Antara
> reported.   [I hope Menudo was not offered for lunch] More
> than 90 percent of Indonesia's 210 million are Muslim,
> though many still believe in sprits and the unseen world.
> According to Islamic tradition, Indonesian boys are
> normally circumcised, usually when they reach the age of 6
> or 7.
>
> The family immediately suspected it was the work of a
> genie, belief in which is widespread in Indonesia. They
> summoned a local shaman to the house who confirmed their
> suspicions. The report did not say whether the toddler,
> Riyan Abdullah, experienced any complications as a result
> of the operation. How does this relate to Cold Fusion? Is
> it a coincidence that researchers who have a strong belief
> in the validity of the phenomenon, have more success with
> the experiment? Or did that belief follow the success, or
> both - or were they predisposed to both success and belief
> because of some other overriding cultural meme (like
> dislike of authority) ?
>
> An interesting question. First of all, I bet a few of the
> English Sheepdog puppies always were born with a short
> tail, a condition that was prized because it eliminated
> the need for a later operation.   In addition, I'll bet
> that a few of the long-tailed dogs died from the "docking"
> operation.  Over the years, many breeders, perhaps not the
> one you talked to, favored puppies with short tails.
> Therefore, Darwin strikes again.  Although this is based
> on a few assumptions, it makes more sense than "learned"
> behavior being inserted in the genes.
>
> The story about the circumcised boy is so trivial that a
> response is pointless.
>
> On the other hand, the question about Cold Fusion needs an
> answer.  How do you suppose a person acquired a belief
> that CF was real? People are not born with this belief.
> It seems obvious that people who have success, probably by
> accident, are impressed by the event and keep working in
> an attempt to understand what made the strange process
> happen.  Gradually skill increases, success comes more
> often, and belief grows.  Isn't this the way you operate?
> Why would you expect CF to be different?
>
> Ed

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
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&nbsp;
<p>Jones Beene wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style>BODY {
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Although
the "meme" is the cultural corollary to the gene, I would like to find
more (or any better documented) proof that the information carried in memes
is somehow transferable to genes. BTW it is thought that there is a "meme
field" but you will have to ferret out the details from Rupert Sheldrake
on what the evidence consists of for this field as my memory has faded
a bit on that one. Perhaps it is similar to ZPF.&nbsp;Years ago, I had
an English Sheepdog that I bought from a breeder. This breed of dogs have
stubby tails, like a Scottie. The breeder told me that for centuries, most
English Sheepdog puppies, like the sheep they tend, were born with long
tails and these were 'docked' at about three months of age. But that in
modern times half of an average litter or more were born with stubby tails
from day one. For years, I have tried to confirm this scientifically -
to no avail. Had it not come from the breeder himself, I would write it
off as urban legend.&nbsp;In today's science wire, this story bites a little
closer to home, if it is related to meme-to-gene transference.&nbsp;JAKARTA,
Indonesia -- A mother has claimed that a "genie" circumcised her 10-month-old
son while she was cooking breakfast, the state news agency Antara reported.&nbsp;&nbsp;
[I hope Menudo was not offered for lunch]&nbsp;More than 90 percent of
Indonesia's 210 million are Muslim, though many still believe in sprits
and the unseen world. According to Islamic tradition, Indonesian boys are
normally circumcised, usually when they reach the age of 6 or 7.
<p>The family immediately suspected it was the work of a genie, belief
in which is widespread in Indonesia. They summoned a local shaman to the
house who confirmed their suspicions. The report did not say whether the
toddler, Riyan Abdullah, experienced any complications as a result of the
operation.&nbsp;How does this relate to Cold Fusion?&nbsp;Is it a coincidence
that researchers who have a strong belief in the validity of the phenomenon,
have more success with the experiment? Or did that belief follow the success,
or both - or were they predisposed to both success and belief because of
some other overriding cultural meme (like dislike of authority) ?
<p><b>An interesting question. First of all, I bet a few of the English
Sheepdog puppies always were born with a short tail, a condition that was
prized because it eliminated the need for a later operation.&nbsp;&nbsp;
In addition, I'll bet that a few of the long-tailed dogs died from the
"docking" operation.&nbsp; Over the years, many breeders, perhaps not the
one you talked to, favored puppies with short tails.&nbsp; Therefore, Darwin
strikes again.&nbsp; Although this is based on a few assumptions, it makes
more sense than "learned" behavior being inserted in the genes.</b><b></b>
<p><b>The story about the circumcised boy is so trivial that a response
is pointless.</b><b></b>
<p><b>On the other hand, the question about Cold Fusion needs an answer.&nbsp;
How do you suppose a person acquired a belief that CF was real? People
are not born with this belief.&nbsp; It seems obvious that people who have
success, probably by accident, are impressed by the event and keep working
in an attempt to understand what made the strange process happen.&nbsp;
Gradually skill increases, success comes more often, and belief grows.&nbsp;
Isn't this the way you operate?&nbsp; Why would you expect CF to be different?</b>
<p>Ed&nbsp;</blockquote>

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  ERic Krieg  asked me to join his skeptic site probably thinking the sharks 
would eat me alive.  When it was I that eat them alive i was  banned.   i 
made sush a fool out of him to the point that he has almost become a 
supporter by helping me anyway he can. . Bill with these people screaming 
about me to the extent they are,  because I'm must be upsetting their  
physics apple carts why haven't i been banned from this one.  

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	Dear Vo and Jack,

	I have read, literally for months, a mismatch in communication.

	I am going to make an honest attempt to begin, very slowly, in a
step by step fashion without the use of ANY THEORY AT ALL, to ask some
simple questions and find a way for a forum of interested persons to
communicate in commonly used and accepted words.

	This is simple human communication.

	NOTE:

	This letter is intended to ask and hopefully get answers to 
some simple basic questions without trying invade intellectual
property rights of the inventor or tech.

	If anyone wants to be rude, or write about anything except the
simple questions and answer part, drop it and do it in another letter
PLEASE.
	The idea is to communicate in a polite and directed manner,
PLEASE. These questions are NOT about theory. These questions are about
simple commonly used words with common meanings such as levels of current
and voltage and the use of the same terms by all parties so that there can
be communication.

	If I ask, for example, "How much water will fit in the fish tank
on the table?"  I may get an answer in pounds, or liters, or gallons or
kilograms.

	IF.... at the very beginning of trying to communicate to ask and
answer NON Theory questions we all agree to refere to a volume of water
as, say, a certain number of gallons, then we may take the next step. 

	Is any part of this not clear?

	This discussion is NOT related to Why or this theory or That
theory. As an example if I asked how much electrical power a small
automobile light bulb with a filament uses, the answer can be supplied as
a voltage and a current, 3.5 amps at 12 volts.  This is not about theory. 


	Dear Vo and Jack,

	Jack writes:

	     iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP.
> OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V  THAT is totally impossible according to
taught
> theory.


	A) General basis is to fill in some of the missing pieces.  I
expect, in general, there is not complete communication between the Tech
and people who may ask questions. 
	I hope to be able to communicate with the Tech at some point.

	B) When the term "3 phase" is used it refers to timing
relationship of 3 power carrying conductors.  3 phase power can be
realized at a wide range of frequencies and voltage and currents. 
	In real world applications 3 phase power is delivered at ranges
from about 20 volts and a fraction of an amp to hundreds of an multiple
hundreds of volts and amps. 

	C) 220 volts is often used to describe a 2 phase house line
voltage but 3 phase power can and has been delivered at voltages below
this and above this level. 

	The term "220 volts" describes a voltage, not a phase
relationship. This is not Theory.  This is a question of simple
quantities. 

	D) In order for us to be able to communicate in an effective
manner is will help if we all use the same terms so that we can all know
the same information without error or with reduced error.

	Please convey this message to the tech and then please ask the
tech if he or she has any difficulty with using common terminology. 

	AFTER the tech has read this Entire Letter:

	PLEASE Ask the tech:

	1)	Is the term "220 volts" used to mean 2 phase power?

	2)	Is the term in (1) meant to convey some other
			information?

	3)	May we begin to make all the terms we use clear and
			common?

	4)	What terms would the tech prefer to use instead of volts,
			amps and number of phases?

	5) Is there any part of this beginning to establish a common set
		of terms the tech would like to alter? 


				---------

	We will begin with this and maybe, instead of months of
miscommunications, we may have a few days of communications.

	Does the tech have any problem with this?
	Do you, Jack have any problem with this?

		with Respect,
						JH

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW       Friday, 21 Feb 03
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:17:26 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 21 Feb 03   Washington, DC

1. COLUMBIA: SHIELA WIDNALL IS ADDED TO THE INVESTIGATION BOARD. 
In the first of the many hearings that will examine the accident,
NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe found himself having to defend
the independence of the Investigation Board he had appointed (WN
14 Feb 03).  So O'Keefe added MIT physicist and aeronautical
engineer Shiela Widnall to the Board, and is considering adding
additional scientists.  Best known for work in the fluid dynamics
of aircraft turbulence, Widnall is a former Secretary of the Air
Force (1993 - 1997), and is certainly independent. But finding
the failure mechanism that led to the breakup of Columbia is less
important than understanding the NASA culture that risked sending
a crew into space at enormous cost to do trivial science.

2. PROTEIN CRYSTALLOGRAPHY: NASA KNEW THE SCIENCE WAS VOODOO.  
In the days following the Columbia tragedy, NASA repeatedly cited
protein crystal growth as an example of important microgravity
research conducted on the shuttle.  NASA knew better.  It was 20
years ago that a protein crystal was first grown on Space Lab 1.
NASA boasted that the lysozyme crystal was 1,000 times as large
as one grown in the same apparatus on Earth.  However, the
apparatus was not designed to operate in Earth gravity.  The
space-grown crystal was no larger than lysozyme crystals grown by
standard techniques on Earth.  But the myth was born.  In 1992, a
team of Americans that had done protein crystal studies on Mir,
commented in Nature (26 Nov 92) that microgravity had led to no
significant breakthrough in protein crystal growth. Every protein
that crystalizes in space, crystallizes right here on Earth. 
Nevertheless, in 1997, Larry DeLucas, a University of Alabama at
Birmingham chemist and a former astronaut, testified before the
Space Subcommittee of the House that a protein structure,
determined from a crystal grown on the shuttle, resulted in a new
flu drug that was in clinical trials.  It simply was not true. 
Two years later Science magazine(25 June 99)revealed that the
crystal had been grown in Australia, which is a long way off, but
it's not in space.  Meanwhile, the American Society for Cell
Biology, which includes the biologists most involved in protein
crystallography, called for the cancellation of the space-based
program.  Hoping to regain some credibility, an embarrassed NASA
turned to the National Academy of Science to review biotechnology
plans for the Space Station.  On March 1, 2000, the National
Research Council, the research arm of the Academy, released their
study.  It concluded that the enormous investment in protein
crystal growth on the Shuttle and Mir had not led to a single
unique scientific result.  It might be supposed that programs in
space-grown protein crystals would be terminated.  It was a shock
to open the press kit for STS-107 and discover that the final
flight of Columbia carried a commercial protein crystal growth
experiment for the Center for Biophysical Science and
Engineering, University of Alabama at Birmingham.  The Director
of the Center is Lawrence J. DeLucas, O.D., Ph.D.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 14:14:35 2003
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:07:29 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OUCH  meme-to-gene transistion
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Hi Ed,

Seems like once again, I have failed to draw a smile...

BTW, although I was only being half-serious, it would seem like there =
is/was some pretty compelling evidence in Sheldrake's books for learned =
behavior being transferred physically to the next generation, but it was =
not by genes per se, at least not at first.  I just noticed that he has =
an online site:
http://www.sheldrake.org/

The best of his books that I have read was, "The Presence of the Past: =
Morphic Resonance & the Habits of Nature" Highly recommended . Here is a =
quote:

"According to Sheldrake's hypothesis of formative causation, these =
questions [about the many things that genetics' can't explain ] remain =
unanswered in part because convention is hobbled by the reductionist =
assumption that finding the answers to such questions is largely a =
matter of figuring out the machinery of nature, of getting to the bottom =
of an ultimately mechanical universe. But, Sheldrake suggests that =
nature is not a machine and that each kind of system - from crystals to =
birds to societies - is shaped not by universal laws that embrace and =
direct all systems but by a unique "morphic field" containing a =
collective or pooled memory."

I guess maybe the Scott Little's of the world, the ones who tried to =
replicate CF and Mills' hydrino work, but failed to do so despite being =
pretty good technicians and following written instructions to the =
letter, weren't connecting to that emerging CF morphic field... perhaps =
it just isn't strong enough yet...your efforts and LENR-CANR.org may =
change that predicament over time.

BTW, your reliance on rational reductionist principles and the 'standard =
paradigm' in the genetics debate, but not in the CF debate, at least =
shows that you have intellectual flexibility. Now, if I could only =
figure out how to compose a message with enough ingenuity, or =
incongruity, to evoke that smile of recognition about the absurdity of =
it all, without actually putting one of those tacky "smiley's" at the =
end...

Jones
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi Ed,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Seems like once again, I have failed to draw a smile...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW, although I was only being half-serious, it would seem like =
there=20
is/was some pretty compelling evidence in Sheldrake's books for learned =
behavior=20
being transferred physically to the next generation, but it was not by =
genes per=20
se, at least not at first.&nbsp; I just noticed that he has an online=20
site:</DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www.sheldrake.org/">http://www.sheldrake.org/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The best of his books that I have read was, "The Presence of the =
Past:=20
Morphic Resonance &amp; the Habits of Nature" Highly recommended . Here =
is a=20
quote:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"According to Sheldrake's hypothesis of formative causation, these=20
questions [about the many things that genetics' can't explain ] remain=20
unanswered in part because convention is hobbled by the reductionist =
assumption=20
that finding the answers to such questions is largely a matter of =
figuring out=20
the machinery of nature, of getting to the bottom of an ultimately =
mechanical=20
universe. But, Sheldrake suggests that nature is not a machine and that =
each=20
kind of system - from crystals to birds to societies - is shaped not by=20
universal laws that embrace and direct all systems but by a unique =
"morphic=20
field" containing a collective or pooled memory."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I guess maybe the Scott Little's of the world, the ones who tried =
to=20
replicate CF and Mills' hydrino work, but failed to do so despite being =
pretty=20
good technicians and following written instructions to the letter, =
weren't=20
connecting to that emerging CF morphic field... perhaps it just isn't =
strong=20
enough yet...your efforts and LENR-CANR.org may change that predicament =
over=20
time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW, your reliance on rational reductionist principles and the =
'standard=20
paradigm' in the genetics debate, but not in the CF debate, at least =
shows that=20
you have intellectual flexibility. Now, if I could only figure out how =
to=20
compose a message with enough ingenuity, or incongruity, to evoke that =
smile of=20
recognition about the absurdity of it all, without actually putting one =
of those=20
tacky "smiley's" at the end...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2D9B2.91D11500--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 15:04:01 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <5a.182a32f5.2b88096a aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:59:54 EST
Subject: Re: Communication with Respect
To: herman antioch-college.edu
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In a message dated 2/21/03 4:46:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:


> Dear Vo and Jack,     REPLY  There is a very simple solution to the issue at 
> hand.  But I have never met a Sci. Type that understands simple all they 
> can think about is complicated,  which totally convolutes their thinking. 
> From my experience .  It is called making a telephone call to 810 618 9234 
> and attempting to understand new evolutionary concepts. 

    My suggestion would be,  but do as you wish.  Before doing so you will be 
far ahead of the game by forgetting basically > anything you were taught about 
> electrical theory. And listen to what your informed about.  Also Throw your 
> phase angle book away. Verbal communication is the key to gaining knowledge 
> not E mails. Because of difference in thinking processes that are involved 
> that can create MIS  Leading interpretations. See how easy it is ?      
> 
>     I have read, literally for months, a mismatch in communication.
> 
>     I am going to make an honest attempt to begin, very slowly, in a
> step by step fashion without the use of ANY THEORY AT ALL, to ask some
> simple questions and find a way for a forum of interested persons to
> communicate in commonly used and accepted words.
> 
>     This is simple human communication.
> 
>     NOTE:
> 
>     This letter is intended to ask and hopefully get answers to 
> some simple basic questions without trying invade intellectual
> property rights of the inventor or tech.
> 
>     If anyone wants to be rude, or write about anything except the
> simple questions and answer part, drop it and do it in another letter
> PLEASE.
>     The idea is to communicate in a polite and directed manner,
> PLEASE. These questions are NOT about theory. These questions are about
> simple commonly used words with common meanings such as levels of current
> and voltage and the use of the same terms by all parties so that there can
> be communication.
> 
>     If I ask, for example, "How much water will fit in the fish tank
> on the table?"  I may get an answer in pounds, or liters, or gallons or
> kilograms.
> 
>     IF.... at the very beginning of trying to communicate to ask and
> answer NON Theory questions we all agree to refere to a volume of water
> as, say, a certain number of gallons, then we may take the next step. 
> 
>     Is any part of this not clear?
> 
>     This discussion is NOT related to Why or this theory or That
> theory. As an example if I asked how much electrical power a small
> automobile light bulb with a filament uses, the answer can be supplied as
> a voltage and a current, 3.5 amps at 12 volts.  This is not about theory. 
> 
> 
>     Dear Vo and Jack,
> 
>     Jack writes:
> 
>          iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP.
> > OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V  THAT is totally impossible according to
> taught
> > theory.
> 
> 
>     A) General basis is to fill in some of the missing pieces.  I
> expect, in general, there is not complete communication between the Tech
> and people who may ask questions. 
>     I hope to be able to communicate with the Tech at some point.
> 
>     B) When the term "3 phase" is used it refers to timing
> relationship of 3 power carrying conductors.  3 phase power can be
> realized at a wide range of frequencies and voltage and currents. 
>     In real world applications 3 phase power is delivered at ranges
> from about 20 volts and a fraction of an amp to hundreds of an multiple
> hundreds of volts and amps. 
> 
>     C) 220 volts is often used to describe a 2 phase house line
> voltage but 3 phase power can and has been delivered at voltages below
> this and above this level. 
> 
>     The term "220 volts" describes a voltage, not a phase
> relationship. This is not Theory.  This is a question of simple
> quantities. 
> 
>     D) In order for us to be able to communicate in an effective
> manner is will help if we all use the same terms so that we can all know
> the same information without error or with reduced error.
> 
>     Please convey this message to the tech and then please ask the
> tech if he or she has any difficulty with using common terminology. 
> 
>     AFTER the tech has read this Entire Letter:
> 
>     PLEASE Ask the tech:
> 
>     1)    Is the term "220 volts" used to mean 2 phase power?
> 
>     2)    Is the term in (1) meant to convey some other
>             information?
> 
>     3)    May we begin to make all the terms we use clear and
>             common?
> 
>     4)    What terms would the tech prefer to use instead of volts,
>             amps and number of phases?
> 
>     5) Is there any part of this beginning to establish a common set
>         of terms the tech would like to alter? 
> 
> 
>                 ---------
> 
>     We will begin with this and maybe, instead of months of
> miscommunications, we may have a few days of communications.
> 
>     Does the tech have any problem with this?
>     Do you, Jack have any problem with this?
> 
>         with Respect,
>                         JH
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/21/0=
3 4:46:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear Vo and Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; There is a very simple solution to the issue at hand.=
&nbsp; But I have never met a Sci. Type that understands simple all they can=
 think about is complicated,&nbsp; which totally convolutes their thinking.=20=
>From my experience .&nbsp; It is called making a telephone call to 810 618 9=
234 and attempting to understand new evolutionary concepts. </FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My suggestion would be,&nbsp; but do as you wish.&nbsp; B=
efore doing so you will be far ahead of the game by forgetting basically <BL=
OCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">anything you were taught about ele=
ctrical theory. And listen to what your informed about.&nbsp; Also Throw you=
r phase angle book away. Verbal communication is the key to gaining knowledg=
e not E mails. Because of difference in thinking processes that are involved=
 that can create MIS&nbsp; Leading interpretations. See how easy it is ?&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have read, literally for months, a mismatch in communic=
ation.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am going to make an honest attempt to begin, very slowl=
y, in a<BR>
step by step fashion without the use of ANY THEORY AT ALL, to ask some<BR>
simple questions and find a way for a forum of interested persons to<BR>
communicate in commonly used and accepted words.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is simple human communication.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOTE:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This letter is intended to ask and hopefully get answers=20=
to <BR>
some simple basic questions without trying invade intellectual<BR>
property rights of the inventor or tech.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If anyone wants to be rude, or write about anything excep=
t the<BR>
simple questions and answer part, drop it and do it in another letter<BR>
PLEASE.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The idea is to communicate in a polite and directed manne=
r,<BR>
PLEASE. These questions are NOT about theory. These questions are about<BR>
simple commonly used words with common meanings such as levels of current<BR=
>
and voltage and the use of the same terms by all parties so that there can<B=
R>
be communication.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If I ask, for example, "How much water will fit in the fi=
sh tank<BR>
on the table?"&nbsp; I may get an answer in pounds, or liters, or gallons or=
<BR>
kilograms.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IF.... at the very beginning of trying to communicate to=20=
ask and<BR>
answer NON Theory questions we all agree to refere to a volume of water<BR>
as, say, a certain number of gallons, then we may take the next step. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is any part of this not clear?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This discussion is NOT related to Why or this theory or T=
hat<BR>
theory. As an example if I asked how much electrical power a small<BR>
automobile light bulb with a filament uses, the answer can be supplied as<BR=
>
a voltage and a current, 3.5 amps at 12 volts.&nbsp; This is not about theor=
y. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear Vo and Jack,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jack writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; iT WILL CONDUCT UP TO 6 HP.=
<BR>
&gt; OF 3 PHASE WORK. FROM 220V&nbsp; THAT is totally impossible according t=
o<BR>
taught<BR>
&gt; theory.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A) General basis is to fill in some of the missing pieces=
.&nbsp; I<BR>
expect, in general, there is not complete communication between the Tech<BR>
and people who may ask questions. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I hope to be able to communicate with the Tech at some po=
int.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; B) When the term "3 phase" is used it refers to timing<BR=
>
relationship of 3 power carrying conductors.&nbsp; 3 phase power can be<BR>
realized at a wide range of frequencies and voltage and currents. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In real world applications 3 phase power is delivered at=20=
ranges<BR>
from about 20 volts and a fraction of an amp to hundreds of an multiple<BR>
hundreds of volts and amps. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; C) 220 volts is often used to describe a 2 phase house li=
ne<BR>
voltage but 3 phase power can and has been delivered at voltages below<BR>
this and above this level. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The term "220 volts" describes a voltage, not a phase<BR>
relationship. This is not Theory.&nbsp; This is a question of simple<BR>
quantities. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; D) In order for us to be able to communicate in an effect=
ive<BR>
manner is will help if we all use the same terms so that we can all know<BR>
the same information without error or with reduced error.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please convey this message to the tech and then please as=
k the<BR>
tech if he or she has any difficulty with using common terminology. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AFTER the tech has read this Entire Letter:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLEASE Ask the tech:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is the term "220 volts" used to mean=
 2 phase power?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is the term in (1) meant to convey s=
ome other<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; informati=
on?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; May we begin to make all the terms w=
e use clear and<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; common?<B=
R>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What terms would the tech prefer to=20=
use instead of volts,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; amps and=20=
number of phases?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5) Is there any part of this beginning to establish a com=
mon set<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of terms the tech would like to a=
lter? <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---------<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We will begin with this and maybe, instead of months of<B=
R>
miscommunications, we may have a few days of communications.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Does the tech have any problem with this?<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you, Jack have any problem with this?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; with Respect,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; JH<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_5a.182a32f5.2b88096a_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 16:10:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <12c.23b4b045.2b8818dc aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:05:48 EST
Subject: In order to evolve you have to combine two opposite worlds 
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  Otherwise you will not and is why we are not. That I can see.  One is 
theory the other is invention. Lets look at theory.  Newton, Maxwell, Tesla,  
Einstein, Kaluza, Kline    Lets look at invention   Da Vinchy , Faraday, 
Tesla, Moray    Hertz Did give us the Bases for A/C    Who was the only In 
the last 125 years that did it all  TESLA 

  Einstein was wise and was not jealous of Tesla.  But generally The problem 
is the theory boys are jealous of the invention boys. Because anyone can have 
a theory but only a few can invent. The inventive ones are not jealous of the 
theory ones.  Why not ? .   It is called EGO. The counter productive 
restrictive roadblock. True inventors do not have one. 

  Read Edison's notes  he actually only invented concrete furniture and the 
worst invention ever the Corp. Lab.  The inventors do not care. If situations 
are combined. And theory types would not lower themselves and associate with 
the inventive types.  That could be a major blunder on their part. Especially 
if inventions come along that they cannot explain. Food  for thought People   

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Jones Beene wrote:

> Hi Ed, Seems like once again, I have failed to draw a
> smile...
>
> I find that my sense of humor is being destroyed by world
> events, so don't take my reactions personally.
>
>   BTW, although I was only being half-serious, it would
> seem like there is/was some pretty compelling evidence in
> Sheldrake's books for learned behavior being transferred
> physically to the next generation, but it was not by genes
> per se, at least not at first.  I just noticed that he has
> an online site:http://www.sheldrake.org/ The best of his
> books that I have read was, "The Presence of the Past:
> Morphic Resonance & the Habits of Nature" Highly
> recommended . Here is a quote: "According to Sheldrake's
> hypothesis of formative causation, these questions [about
> the many things that genetics' can't explain ] remain
> unanswered in part because convention is hobbled by the
> reductionist assumption that finding the answers to such
> questions is largely a matter of figuring out the
> machinery of nature, of getting to the bottom of an
> ultimately mechanical universe. But, Sheldrake suggests
> that nature is not a machine and that each kind of system
> - from crystals to birds to societies - is shaped not by
> universal laws that embrace and direct all systems but by
> a unique "morphic field" containing a collective or pooled
> memory."
>
> While such a collective pooled memory may exist based on
> physical or spiritual reality, this possibility does not
> change the nature of the genes and how they affect
> evolution.  In addition, this possibility does not have to
> affect universal laws.  We have separate issues that do
> not need to be combined.  A pooled memory can operate
> independent of the genes and universal laws.  The
> relationship between these processes is a secondary
> problem that should only be addressed after the existence
> of a pooled memory is established.
>
>   I guess maybe the Scott Little's of the world, the ones
> who tried to replicate CF and Mills' hydrino work, but
> failed to do so despite being pretty good technicians and
> following written instructions to the letter, weren't
> connecting to that emerging CF morphic field... perhaps it
> just isn't strong enough yet...your efforts and
> LENR-CANR.org may change that predicament over time.
>
> The problem with replicating any new phenomenon is the
> absence of sufficient understanding to provide useful
> instruction.  As with cold fusion, many false assumptions
> were made that prevented replication.  Gradually by trial
> and error, we now understand many of the mistakes and can
> now replicate the effect with much greater confidence.
> This process has no relationship to a proposed pooled
> memory.  Rather than trying to combine different
> processes, I suggest we examine each individually.
>
>   BTW, your reliance on rational reductionist principles
> and the 'standard paradigm' in the genetics debate, but
> not in the CF debate, at least shows that you have
> intellectual flexibility. Now, if I could only figure out
> how to compose a message with enough ingenuity, or
> incongruity, to evoke that smile of recognition about the
> absurdity of it all, without actually putting one of those
> tacky "smiley's" at the end...
>
> Of course we humans are absurd.  Our senses are very
> limited, we are controlled by emotions based on past
> events over which we had no control or understanding, and
> our ego makes each of us believe with complete confidence
> all kinds of nonsense.  We survive only because a few
> less-defective people take charge.  Occasionally, the very
> defective are given power and the rest of us stop
> laughing.  The incongruity stops being fun.
>
> Ed

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&nbsp;
<p>Jones Beene wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style>BODY {
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Hi
Ed,&nbsp;Seems like once again, I have failed to draw a smile...
<p><b>I find that my sense of humor is being destroyed by world events,
so don't take my reactions personally.</b>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;BTW, although I was only being half-serious, it would seem
like there is/was some pretty compelling evidence in Sheldrake's books
for learned behavior being transferred physically to the next generation,
but it was not by genes per se, at least not at first.&nbsp; I just noticed
that he has an online site:<a href="http://www.sheldrake.org/">http://www.sheldrake.org/</a>&nbsp;The
best of his books that I have read was, "The Presence of the Past: Morphic
Resonance &amp; the Habits of Nature" Highly recommended . Here is a quote:&nbsp;"According
to Sheldrake's hypothesis of formative causation, these questions [about
the many things that genetics' can't explain ] remain unanswered in part
because convention is hobbled by the reductionist assumption that finding
the answers to such questions is largely a matter of figuring out the machinery
of nature, of getting to the bottom of an ultimately mechanical universe.
But, Sheldrake suggests that nature is not a machine and that each kind
of system - from crystals to birds to societies - is shaped not by universal
laws that embrace and direct all systems but by a unique "morphic field"
containing a collective or pooled memory."
<p><b>While such a collective pooled memory may exist based on physical
or spiritual reality, this possibility does not change the nature of the
genes and how they affect evolution.&nbsp; In addition, this possibility
does not have to affect universal laws.&nbsp; We have separate issues that
do not need to be combined.&nbsp; A pooled memory can operate independent
of the genes and universal laws.&nbsp; The relationship between these processes
is a secondary problem that should only be addressed after the existence
of a pooled memory is established.</b>
<br><b></b>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;I guess maybe the Scott Little's of the world, the ones
who tried to replicate CF and Mills' hydrino work, but failed to do so
despite being pretty good technicians and following written instructions
to the letter, weren't connecting to that emerging CF morphic field...
perhaps it just isn't strong enough yet...your efforts and LENR-CANR.org
may change that predicament over time.
<p><b>The problem with replicating any new phenomenon is the absence of
sufficient understanding to provide useful instruction.&nbsp; As with cold
fusion, many false assumptions were made that prevented replication.&nbsp;
Gradually by trial and error, we now understand many of the mistakes and
can now replicate the effect with much greater confidence.&nbsp; This process
has no relationship to a proposed pooled memory.&nbsp; Rather than trying
to combine different processes, I suggest we examine each individually.</b>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;BTW, your reliance on rational reductionist principles
and the 'standard paradigm' in the genetics debate, but not in the CF debate,
at least shows that you have intellectual flexibility. Now, if I could
only figure out how to compose a message with enough ingenuity, or incongruity,
to evoke that smile of recognition about the absurdity of it all, without
actually putting one of those tacky "smiley's" at the end...
<p><b>Of course we humans are absurd.&nbsp; Our senses are very limited,
we are controlled by emotions based on past events over which we had no
control or understanding, and our ego makes each of us believe with complete
confidence all kinds of nonsense.&nbsp; We survive only because a few less-defective
people take charge.&nbsp; Occasionally, the very defective are given power
and the rest of us stop laughing.&nbsp; The incongruity stops being fun.</b><b></b>
<p><b>Ed</b></blockquote>

</body>
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From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: The nonsense comes from you
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:44:46 -0600
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Jack,

You wrote-


>          I speak of innovative new evolutionary  concepts that have been
> demonstrated operational to colleges and all i see is what i consider
moronic
>  nonsense no investigating attitudes in return HELLO

Let's see how serious you are about someone investigating the phase
conversion device you speak of!?

I maintain a complete and well equipped electrical/electronics lab in my
home and would like you to consider sending me one of the units for a
complete evaluation under whatever load conditions you specify. I will use
single and multiple phase power analyzers, scopes and other measuring
devices that will allow full documentation to be produced of the test data.
The only stipulation I have is that the test data would be published for all
to see. I am willing to sign an NDA of your choice for legal protection of
the intellectual property.

Oh BTW, you don't have to worry about my degrees because I have none as I'm
self educated and therefore fit your preferred profile. I'm also a retired
businessman capable of understanding your task at hand!

What say you?

Jon

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:57:13 EST
Subject: The War Against Cold Fusion/ What's really behind it?
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<A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/technology/arch=
ive/1999/05/17/coldfusion2.dtl">
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/technology/archive/1999/05=
/17/c

oldfusion2.dtl</A>

The War Against Cold Fusion=20
What's really behind it?

<A HREF=3D"mailto:hplotkin sfgate.com">Hal Plotkin, Special to SF Gate</A> =20=
   =A0   Monday, May 17, 1999=20

Two months ago, I reported that Dr. Michael McKubre, an electrochemist at=20
Menlo Park-based SRI, was, like other researchers, generating unaccounted-fo=
r=20
heat in a carefully-controlled <A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti=
cle.cgi?file=3D/technology/archive/1999/03/15/coldfusion.dtl">cold fusion ex=
periment</A>. McKubre presented his=20
findings at the centennial meeting of the American Physical Society, the=20
nation's premier gathering of physicists. Close to 100 scientists attended=20
McKubre's talk, a sizable audience for a technical session. Despite the=20
crowd, and the importance of the subject, no major news stories have been=20
published about the event. According to McKubre, there was only one=20
journalist present. In his talk, McKubre detailed the results of SRI's nearl=
y=20
10-year effort to replicate the work of Utah chemists Stanley Pons and Marti=
n=20
Fleischmann. McKubre confirmed that, under the right, difficult-to-achieve=20
conditions, sustained reactions are taking place in SRI's cold fusion cells.=
=20
McKubre says the reaction appears to be nuclear in origin. In addition to=20
carefully measuring the excess heat being produced using a calorimeter=20
precise to 1/1000th of a degree, McKubre has also detected elevated=20
quantities of Helium-4, a known fusion by-product. McKubre's findings turn=20
what is currently known about nuclear science on its head. But that is only=20
half the story. Since writing my first report on McKubre's work two months=20
ago, I've become convinced that the federal Department of Energy is=20
responsible for a massive failure to serve the public interest. Rather than=20
budget the funds needed to explore this new, emerging science, our top=20
national energy science officials have adopted what might be called, at best=
,=20
a policy of benign neglect. At worst, it's a policy of fraud and deceit. How=
=20
could this be happening? The stakes in the debate about cold fusion are=20
enormous. In this case, an unholy alliance seems to have come together. The=20
principle players are the fossil fuel industry, which has no interest in=20
seeing itself eclipsed by a new, non-polluting source of energy, and the=20
mainstream physics community, which wants to protect, seemingly at all costs=
,=20
the federal funding it relies on to continue its massively expensive hot=20
fusion experiments. I've seen how squirrelly even good people can get when a=
=20
few of their bucks are in jeopardy. So it's not surprising that when several=
=20
trillion dollars are on the table, there are signs of skullduggery. Take, fo=
r=20
starters, the Energy Resources Advisory Board (ERAB) panel appointed during=20
the Bush administration to look into the cold fusion claims made by Pons and=
=20
Fleischmann. That panel leaned heavily on an experiment done at MIT that=20
found the field unworthy of financial support. Since then, however, Dr.=20
Eugene Mallove, the chief science writer at MIT at the time, has come forwar=
d=20
to denounce the MIT study, citing irregularities in the way MIT's results=20
were presented. Mallove contends MIT's researchers did generate excess heat=20
in their cold fusion experiment, and then fudged that finding in their final=
=20
report. As evidence, Mallove has produced a copy of the original=20
heat-measurement graph used in the MIT experiment, which showed slight heat=20
production above the expected level. That graph did not appear in the final=20
MIT report. In its place, the MIT team published an "adjusted" graph that=20
showed no production of excess heat. Mallove resigned in protest and demande=
d=20
an investigation. In addressing Mallove's complaint, MIT did not dispute tha=
t=20
the original graph had been altered. Instead, one of the 15 authors of the=20
MIT report was permitted to take the unusual step of changing the descriptio=
n=20
of the experiment's purpose *after* the paper describing it was published.=20
According to an appendix added to the report as a result of the investigatio=
n=20
into Mallove's charges, the experiment was redefined to have been a search=20
for a sudden onset of released energy, rather than to determine if=20
unaccounted-for heat was being generated in cold fusion cells. No such claim=
=20
was made at the time the report was originally published and presented to=20
Congress. Mallove contends MIT's handling of the matter was fatally flawed.=20
"In science, we don't usually allow anyone to redefine the purpose of an=20
experiment to match the results," he says. Since then, with funding from=20
futurist Arthur C. Clarke, Mallove has been publishing <A HREF=3D"http://www=
.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/">Infinite Energy=20
magazine</A>, a publication devoted to spreading news about cold fusion=20
experiments. Last month, Mallove released <A HREF=3D"http://www.mv.com/ipuse=
rs/zeropoint/IEHTML/promos.html">Fire From Water</A>, a video=20
documentary about cold fusion. Mallove is currently negotiating with several=
=20
national networks interested in broadcasting the newly released video. There=
=20
are several incredible moments in Fire From Water. It contains, for example,=
=20
the first video footage I've seen of sustained energy releases in cold fusio=
n=20
cells. It's easy to see why the scientists involved immediately assumed some=
=20
kind of nuclear reaction was taking place. If it's a parlor trick, as some=20
critics contend, it's one of the best I've seen. The cells bubble with=20
energy, looking like what you get when you poke a hot iron into a jar of=20
water. But the water does not extinguish the heat. Instead, the cells bubble=
=20
on and on, emitting steam, in amounts far greater than can be explained by=20
the energy put into them. In some cases, the reactions go on for days, even=20
weeks. But there's more. In a telling interview, former Electric Power=20
Research Institute (EPRI) executive Tom Passell says that at least some of=20
those involved in the campaign to debunk cold fusion intentionally misled=20
congressional investigators and the public. EPRI is the Palo Alto-based=20
consortium of utility companies that conducts research into power generation=
=20
and distribution technologies. Besides his professional credentials, Passell=
=20
has an excellent reputation as a longtime, well-known, Palo Alto civic=20
volunteer. Passell says that shortly after the ERAB panel persuasively=20
denounced cold fusion as junk science in congressional testimony, some of th=
e=20
members of that panel quietly came to EPRI seeking money so they could study=
=20
the phenomena themselves. Apparently, cold fusion research was only worthles=
s=20
if someone else was getting the money to do it. If Passell's charge is true,=
=20
it means some members of the ERAB panel intentionally lied to Congress,=20
offering scientific testimony that cold fusion was unworthy of further study=
,=20
testimony which they knew to be false. In non-scientific language, that's=20
called perjury. "The search for money, for research funds, is a big thing,"=20
Passell says, "and sometimes takes precedence over the search for what we=20
call truth." Despite the federal government's ongoing obstruction, scientist=
s=20
around the world are continuing to investigate cold fusion. Several recent=20
advances are worth noting. Les Case, an MIT-trained chemical engineer with=20
more than 20 patents under his belt, discovered that cold fusion reactions=20
could be made more reliable by the addition of a carbon catalyst. Case used=20
his own funds to support his work; his technique is the one now being=20
replicated by SRI's McKubre. Others have made similar observations, most=20
notably Tom Claytor at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. (Interestingly,=20
the current firestorm of controversy about the alleged leaking of nuclear=20
secrets to the Chinese at Los Alamos may make it harder, in the future, to=20
obtain information about the successful Los Alamos cold fusion experiments).=
=20
There are also tantalizing indications of possible breakthroughs on the=20
theoretical level, as well. According to conventional nuclear theory, for=20
example, the sun should be emitting a steady stream of neutrinos, particles=20
that are produced in hot nuclear fusion reactions, as those reactions are=20
currently understood. The only problem is, neutrinos coming from the sun hav=
e=20
not been detected in the numbers current theory predicts. In the parlance of=
=20
the field, this is known as the "problem of the sun's missing neutrinos." Fo=
r=20
some reason, the same mainstream physicists who claim cold fusion can't exis=
t=20
because cold fusion cells don't produce all the expected nuclear by-products=
=20
don't make the same claim about the sun. Instead, they maintain it is merely=
=20
a problem of neutrino measurement. The sun's "missing neutrinos" are there,=20
they say, we just can't measure them accurately enough. But at least some=20
cold fusion theorists are beginning to think the two phenomena might be=20
related. They suspect that more than one type of fusion may be occurring=20
within the sun, and that what is happening in the little Pons-Flieschmann=20
cells might provide at least part of the explanation about what is going on.=
=20
Similar claims are being made by proponents of nuclear string theory, which=20
has recently come to prominence much to the consternation of the particle=20
theorists who still dominate the federal physics establishment. Dr. McKubre,=
=20
for example, discussed the matter with no less than Dr. Edward Teller.=20
McKubre told <A HREF=3D"http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.11/coldfusion_p=
r.html">Wired magazine</A>, that Teller said he might be able to explain how=
=20
cold fusion works. The biggest slam against cold fusion researchers involves=
=20
their inability to replicate the same results each time they conduct the=20
experiment. But, as McKubre points out, the same could have been said about=20
the first transistors. Due to problems with material impurities, only one in=
=20
a hundred or so of the first transistors worked. By studying those that did=20
work, however, scientists were able to perfect the invention. The same thing=
=20
happened with integrated circuits, which led to the clean rooms that=20
carefully control the manufacturing environment now used to produce computer=
=20
chips. When it comes to cold fusion, however, the detractors in the=20
Department of Energy say further scientific inquiry should be abandoned=20
because, in as many as seven out of ten tries, cold fusion does not work.=20
(Les Case is claiming he's got the failure rate down to just 10-20 percent.=20
Recently, he visited McKubre's SRI lab to demonstrate his latest techniques)=
.=20
It may be hard to believe that people with vested interests could have been=20
responsible for dampening, and nearly killing, this field for the last 10=20
years. Until you realize how much money is involved. We're not just talking=20
about the $15 billion the U.S. has spent in the last few decades to support=20
the work of hot fusion scientists, such as those who dominated the ERAB=20
panel. Those scientists and their institutions would, of course, be forced t=
o=20
find a new paradigm, and new funds, to support themselves if cold fusion=20
theories proved valid. But that is just the tip of the financial iceberg. Th=
e=20
foundation of the fossil fuel dependent international economy is also on the=
=20
line, down to the last nuclear power plant, coal mine, and neighborhood gas=20
station. It's no wonder some people are worried. It would be remarkable if=20
they were not taking steps to stop advancements in this field. Clearly,=20
though, stepped up cold fusion research efforts are called for. Even if cold=
=20
fusion claims are bogus, we'll undoubtedly learn a lot we don't know about=20
material sciences and electrochemistry, two fields vital to future scientifi=
c=20
progress. It is not enough, though, to encourage the handful of scientists=20
who, against all the obstacles, have secured funding to continue work on col=
d=20
fusion. We need a full-scale investigation into the Department of Energy's=20
ongoing campaign to <A HREF=3D"http://wwwofe.er.doe.gov/More_HTML/Cold.html"=
>discredit scientists</A> working on understanding the=20
unusual, and potentially useful, cold fusion effect. And the first person we=
=20
should call on the carpet is the Secretary of Energy, Bill Richardson. If=20
Secretary Richardson could find time to visit Monica Lewinsky's apartment to=
=20
offer her a job, he can surely find time to answer a few questions about his=
=20
department's continuing role in retarding the progress of cold fusion=20
investigations.=20


Silicon Valley writer and broadcaster Hal Plotkin would not mind if you prin=
t=20
out this column and mail it to your representative in Congress.
<A HREF=3D"mailto:hplotkin sfgate.com">hplotkin@sfgate.com</A>     =A0  =20
   =20
=A0   =B7 <A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/techn=
ology/archive/1999/05/17/coldfusion2.dtl&type=3Dprintable">Printer-friendly=20=
version</A>=20
=B7 <A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/technology/=
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in=3Dhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ffile%3D%2Ftechnology%2Farch=
ive%2F1999%2F05%2F17%2Fcoldfusion2.dtl">Email this article to a friend</A>=20


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=
ile=3D/technology/archive/1999/05/17/coldfusion2.dtl">http://www.sfgate.com/=
cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/technology/archive/1999/05/17/coldfusion2.dtl</A=
><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>The War Against Cold Fusi=
on <BR>
What's really behind it?<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000ff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D1=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><A HREF=3D"mailto:hplotkin s=
fgate.com">Hal Plotkin, Special to SF Gate</A> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">    =A0   </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00008b" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D1 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0">Monday, May 17, 1999 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Two months ago, I reported that Dr. Michael McKubre, an electrochemist at Me=
nlo Park-based SRI, was, like other researchers, generating unaccounted-for=20=
heat in a carefully-controlled <A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti=
cle.cgi?file=3D/technology/archive/1999/03/15/coldfusion.dtl">cold fusion ex=
periment</A>. McKubre presented his findings at the centennial meeting of th=
e American Physical Society, the nation's premier gathering of physicists. C=
lose to 100 scientists attended McKubre's talk, a sizable audience for a tec=
hnical session. Despite the crowd, and the importance of the subject, no maj=
or news stories have been published about the event. According to McKubre, t=
here was only one journalist present. In his talk, McKubre detailed the resu=
lts of SRI's nearly 10-year effort to replicate the work of Utah chemists St=
anley Pons and Martin Fleischmann. McKubre confirmed that, under the right,=20=
difficult-to-achieve conditions, sustained reactions are taking place in SRI=
's cold fusion cells. McKubre says the reaction appears to be nuclear in ori=
gin. In addition to carefully measuring the excess heat being produced using=
 a calorimeter precise to 1/1000th of a degree, McKubre has also detected el=
evated quantities of Helium-4, a known fusion by-product. McKubre's findings=
 turn what is currently known about nuclear science on its head. But that is=
 only half the story. Since writing my first report on McKubre's work two mo=
nths ago, I've become convinced that the federal Department of Energy is res=
ponsible for a massive failure to serve the public interest. Rather than bud=
get the funds needed to explore this new, emerging science, our top national=
 energy science officials have adopted what might be called, at best, a poli=
cy of benign neglect. At worst, it's a policy of fraud and deceit. How could=
 this be happening? The stakes in the debate about cold fusion are enormous.=
 In this case, an unholy alliance seems to have come together. The principle=
 players are the fossil fuel industry, which has no interest in seeing itsel=
f eclipsed by a new, non-polluting source of energy, and the mainstream phys=
ics community, which wants to protect, seemingly at all costs, the federal f=
unding it relies on to continue its massively expensive hot fusion experimen=
ts. I've seen how squirrelly even good people can get when a few of their bu=
cks are in jeopardy. So it's not surprising that when several trillion dolla=
rs are on the table, there are signs of skullduggery. Take, for starters, th=
e Energy Resources Advisory Board (ERAB) panel appointed during the Bush adm=
inistration to look into the cold fusion claims made by Pons and Fleischmann=
. That panel leaned heavily on an experiment done at MIT that found the fiel=
d unworthy of financial support. Since then, however, Dr. Eugene Mallove, th=
e chief science writer at MIT at the time, has come forward to denounce the=20=
MIT study, citing irregularities in the way MIT's results were presented. Ma=
llove contends MIT's researchers did generate excess heat in their cold fusi=
on experiment, and then fudged that finding in their final report. As eviden=
ce, Mallove has produced a copy of the original heat-measurement graph used=20=
in the MIT experiment, which showed slight heat production above the expecte=
d level. That graph did not appear in the final MIT report. In its place, th=
e MIT team published an "adjusted" graph that showed no production of excess=
 heat. Mallove resigned in protest and demanded an investigation. In address=
ing Mallove's complaint, MIT did not dispute that the original graph had bee=
n altered. Instead, one of the 15 authors of the MIT report was permitted to=
 take the unusual step of changing the description of the experiment's purpo=
se *after* the paper describing it was published. According to an appendix a=
dded to the report as a result of the investigation into Mallove's charges,=20=
the experiment was redefined to have been a search for a sudden onset of rel=
eased energy, rather than to determine if unaccounted-for heat was being gen=
erated in cold fusion cells. No such claim was made at the time the report w=
as originally published and presented to Congress. Mallove contends MIT's ha=
ndling of the matter was fatally flawed. "In science, we don't usually allow=
 anyone to redefine the purpose of an experiment to match the results," he s=
ays. Since then, with funding from futurist Arthur C. Clarke, Mallove has be=
en publishing <A HREF=3D"http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/">Infinite Ener=
gy magazine</A>, a publication devoted to spreading news about cold fusion e=
xperiments. Last month, Mallove released <A HREF=3D"http://www.mv.com/ipuser=
s/zeropoint/IEHTML/promos.html">Fire From Water</A>, a video documentary abo=
ut cold fusion. Mallove is currently negotiating with several national netwo=
rks interested in broadcasting the newly released video. There are several i=
ncredible moments in Fire From Water. It contains, for example, the first vi=
deo footage I've seen of sustained energy releases in cold fusion cells. It'=
s easy to see why the scientists involved immediately assumed some kind of n=
uclear reaction was taking place. If it's a parlor trick, as some critics co=
ntend, it's one of the best I've seen. The cells bubble with energy, looking=
 like what you get when you poke a hot iron into a jar of water. But the wat=
er does not extinguish the heat. Instead, the cells bubble on and on, emitti=
ng steam, in amounts far greater than can be explained by the energy put int=
o them. In some cases, the reactions go on for days, even weeks. But there's=
 more. In a telling interview, former Electric Power Research Institute (EPR=
I) executive Tom Passell says that at least some of those involved in the ca=
mpaign to debunk cold fusion intentionally misled congressional investigator=
s and the public. EPRI is the Palo Alto-based consortium of utility companie=
s that conducts research into power generation and distribution technologies=
. Besides his professional credentials, Passell has an excellent reputation=20=
as a longtime, well-known, Palo Alto civic volunteer. Passell says that shor=
tly after the ERAB panel persuasively denounced cold fusion as junk science=20=
in congressional testimony, some of the members of that panel quietly came t=
o EPRI seeking money so they could study the phenomena themselves. Apparentl=
y, cold fusion research was only worthless if someone else was getting the m=
oney to do it. If Passell's charge is true, it means some members of the ERA=
B panel intentionally lied to Congress, offering scientific testimony that c=
old fusion was unworthy of further study, testimony which they knew to be fa=
lse. In non-scientific language, that's called perjury. "The search for mone=
y, for research funds, is a big thing," Passell says, "and sometimes takes p=
recedence over the search for what we call truth." Despite the federal gover=
nment's ongoing obstruction, scientists around the world are continuing to i=
nvestigate cold fusion. Several recent advances are worth noting. Les Case,=20=
an MIT-trained chemical engineer with more than 20 patents under his belt, d=
iscovered that cold fusion reactions could be made more reliable by the addi=
tion of a carbon catalyst. Case used his own funds to support his work; his=20=
technique is the one now being replicated by SRI's McKubre. Others have made=
 similar observations, most notably Tom Claytor at the Los Alamos National L=
aboratory. (Interestingly, the current firestorm of controversy about the al=
leged leaking of nuclear secrets to the Chinese at Los Alamos may make it ha=
rder, in the future, to obtain information about the successful Los Alamos c=
old fusion experiments). There are also tantalizing indications of possible=20=
breakthroughs on the theoretical level, as well. According to conventional n=
uclear theory, for example, the sun should be emitting a steady stream of ne=
utrinos, particles that are produced in hot nuclear fusion reactions, as tho=
se reactions are currently understood. The only problem is, neutrinos coming=
 from the sun have not been detected in the numbers current theory predicts.=
 In the parlance of the field, this is known as the "problem of the sun's mi=
ssing neutrinos." For some reason, the same mainstream physicists who claim=20=
cold fusion can't exist because cold fusion cells don't produce all the expe=
cted nuclear by-products don't make the same claim about the sun. Instead, t=
hey maintain it is merely a problem of neutrino measurement. The sun's "miss=
ing neutrinos" are there, they say, we just can't measure them accurately en=
ough. But at least some cold fusion theorists are beginning to think the two=
 phenomena might be related. They suspect that more than one type of fusion=20=
may be occurring within the sun, and that what is happening in the little Po=
ns-Flieschmann cells might provide at least part of the explanation about wh=
at is going on. Similar claims are being made by proponents of nuclear strin=
g theory, which has recently come to prominence much to the consternation of=
 the particle theorists who still dominate the federal physics establishment=
. Dr. McKubre, for example, discussed the matter with no less than Dr. Edwar=
d Teller. McKubre told <A HREF=3D"http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.11/co=
ldfusion_pr.html">Wired magazine</A>, that Teller said he might be able to e=
xplain how cold fusion works. The biggest slam against cold fusion researche=
rs involves their inability to replicate the same results each time they con=
duct the experiment. But, as McKubre points out, the same could have been sa=
id about the first transistors. Due to problems with material impurities, on=
ly one in a hundred or so of the first transistors worked. By studying those=
 that did work, however, scientists were able to perfect the invention. The=20=
same thing happened with integrated circuits, which led to the clean rooms t=
hat carefully control the manufacturing environment now used to produce comp=
uter chips. When it comes to cold fusion, however, the detractors in the Dep=
artment of Energy say further scientific inquiry should be abandoned because=
, in as many as seven out of ten tries, cold fusion does not work. (Les Case=
 is claiming he's got the failure rate down to just 10-20 percent. Recently,=
 he visited McKubre's SRI lab to demonstrate his latest techniques). It may=20=
be hard to believe that people with vested interests could have been respons=
ible for dampening, and nearly killing, this field for the last 10 years. Un=
til you realize how much money is involved. We're not just talking about the=
 $15 billion the U.S. has spent in the last few decades to support the work=20=
of hot fusion scientists, such as those who dominated the ERAB panel. Those=20=
scientists and their institutions would, of course, be forced to find a new=20=
paradigm, and new funds, to support themselves if cold fusion theories prove=
d valid. But that is just the tip of the financial iceberg. The foundation o=
f the fossil fuel dependent international economy is also on the line, down=20=
to the last nuclear power plant, coal mine, and neighborhood gas station. It=
's no wonder some people are worried. It would be remarkable if they were no=
t taking steps to stop advancements in this field. Clearly, though, stepped=20=
up cold fusion research efforts are called for. Even if cold fusion claims a=
re bogus, we'll undoubtedly learn a lot we don't know about material science=
s and electrochemistry, two fields vital to future scientific progress. It i=
s not enough, though, to encourage the handful of scientists who, against al=
l the obstacles, have secured funding to continue work on cold fusion. We ne=
ed a full-scale investigation into the Department of Energy's ongoing campai=
gn to <A HREF=3D"http://wwwofe.er.doe.gov/More_HTML/Cold.html">discredit sci=
entists</A> working on understanding the unusual, and potentially useful, co=
ld fusion effect. And the first person we should call on the carpet is the S=
ecretary of Energy, Bill Richardson. If Secretary Richardson could find time=
 to visit Monica Lewinsky's apartment to offer her a job, he can surely find=
 time to answer a few questions about his department's continuing role in re=
tarding the progress of cold fusion investigations. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Silicon Valley writer and br=
oadcaster Hal Plotkin would not mind if you print out this column and mail i=
t to your representative in Congress.<BR>
<A HREF=3D"mailto:hplotkin sfgate.com">hplotkin@sfgate.com</A> </FONT><FONT=20=
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/17/coldfusion2.dtl&type=3Dprintable">Printer-friendly version</A> <BR>
<B>=B7 </B><A HREF=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/tech=
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<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
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http://www.thevortextheory.com/


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
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Subject: Re: Debunking new ideas
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In a message dated 2/21/2003 11:58:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

> I'm curious, Tom, what "facts" that Jack presented did you find useful? The 
> Tackyon explanation? Other than that, I don't recall anything else that he 
> said making any sense at all.

Jacks description of his three phase energy machine fits the same 3 phase 
energy properties of a cold fusion reaction.  The more successful a person 
becomes in inventing an idea, the more frenzied they may become due to the 
political pressures of presenting the idea to the general public.  

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/21/2003 11:58:49 AM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm curious, Tom, what "facts"=20=
that Jack presented did you find useful? The Tackyon explanation? Other than=
 that, I don't recall anything else that he said making any sense at all.</B=
LOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Jacks description of his three phase energy machine fits the same 3 phase en=
ergy properties of a cold fusion reaction.&nbsp; The more successful a perso=
n becomes in inventing an idea, the more frenzied they may become due to the=
 political pressures of presenting the idea to the general public.&nbsp; <BR=
>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
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In a message dated 2/21/2003 12:45:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

>  HELLO 

Mr. Carey keeps on highlighting the words used in the back to the future 
movie, by Biff on Michael J. Fox.  Hello. Wake Up.   As if Biff, whom I 
associate with President Clinton's Government which first misused remote 
sensing time travel technologies developed around 1994, like a bunch of 
gangsters, to repress science and especially energy science, in the 3rd Back 
to the future movie, was harassing Mr. Carey to make him say such words, to 
belittle his work. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/21/2003 12:45:24 PM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> HELLO </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Mr. Carey keeps on highlighting the words used in the back to the future mov=
ie, by Biff on Michael J. Fox.&nbsp; Hello. Wake Up.&nbsp;&nbsp; As if Biff,=
 whom I associate with President Clinton's Government which first misused re=
mote sensing time travel technologies developed around 1994, like a bunch of=
 gangsters, to repress science and especially energy science, in the 3rd Bac=
k to the future movie, was harassing Mr. Carey to make him say such words, t=
o belittle his work. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 18:29:00 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1ee.28cbd4c.2b883a0e aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:27:26 EST
Subject: Please call  jon 810 618 9234 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 19:03:16 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <139.1b6e8661.2b8841c8 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:00:24 EST
Subject: The quest for overunity
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http://jnaudin.free.fr/

""....If we could produce electric effects of the required quality, this 
whole planet and the conditions of existence on it could be transformed. The 
sun raises the water of the oceans and winds drive it to distant regions 
where it remains in state of most delicate balance. If it were in our power 
to upset it when and wherever desired, this mighty life-sustaining stream 
could be at will controlled. We could irrigate arid deserts, create lakes and 
rivers and provide motive power in unlimited amount. This would be the most 
efficient way of harnesing the sun to the uses of man......" ( Nikola Tesla, 
June 1919 )The ElectroHydroDynamics ( EHD) may open new ways in advanced 
propulsion. An EHD device uses a direct conversion of electrical energy into 
kinetic energy. A specially shaped electrostatic field creates an hydrostatic 
pressure (or motion) in dielectric media. If the media is a fluid like air 
(or aether), a flow is produced and this produces a motion of the device. A 
powered flow of medium (like air or Aether) within a shaped electrostatic 
field adds energy to the system which is picked up (as potential difference) 
by electrodes and thus produces energy. "



Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>





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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>http://jnaudin.free.fr/<BR>
<BR>
""....If we could produce electric effects of the required quality, this who=
le planet and the conditions of existence on it could be transformed. The su=
n raises the water of the oceans and winds drive it to distant regions where=
 it remains in state of most delicate balance. If it were in our power to up=
set it when and wherever desired, this mighty life-sustaining stream could b=
e at will controlled. We could irrigate arid deserts, create lakes and river=
s and provide motive power in unlimited amount. This would be the most effic=
ient way of harnesing the sun to the uses of man......" ( Nikola Tesla, June=
 1919 )</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B>The </FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#ff0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>E</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0">lectro</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#ff0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">H</FONT><FO=
NT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">ydro</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#ff0000"=
 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0">D</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">ynamics (=20=
EHD)</B> may open new ways in advanced propulsion. An EHD device uses a dire=
ct conversion of electrical energy into kinetic energy. A specially shaped e=
lectrostatic field creates an hydrostatic pressure (or motion) in dielectric=
 media. If the media is a fluid like air (or aether), a flow is produced and=
 this <U>produces a motion</U> of the device. A powered flow of medium (like=
 air or Aether) within a shaped electrostatic field adds energy to the syste=
m which is picked up (as potential difference) by electrodes and thus <U>pro=
duces energy</U>. "<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 19:31:55 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <8.348ce421.2b8848a7 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:29:43 EST
Subject: Re: The quest for overunity
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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     Tesla   had a couple of situations backwards to   so do not feel bad.    
  You think i'm a nut  I have not told you squat yet.  It is called 
diversionary tactics with our obsolete situations.   Because you would 
totally disbelieve what was really coming  The joke will be on the sci comm  
Because it does not involve any conversion of energy math at all  It is 
actually high school  Physics you missed  it   It went right by you. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 21:29:10 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <5f.354e2b7f.2b88642a aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:27:06 EST
Subject: Re: The quest for overunity
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JCarey9622@aol.com
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In a message dated 2/21/2003 10:32:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

>  You think i'm a nut 

No, I do not think your a nut.  You may be highly telepathic, and Telepath's 
may pick up other peoples thoughts and ideas, which may come out in your 
writing style at times, whether you are aware of it or not.   

I am developing alternative energy devices such as yourself, and I have 
problems with gangs, and governments shooting subliminal sound waves and 
radio waves at me with echelon type surveillance technologies to prevent me 
from doing research on the Internet, and running my businesses, and I assumed 
that you may be having similar problems, since your syntax seemed to be mixed 
with your own ideas, and the ideas of others, which could be natural 
telepathy or subliminal radio waves from echelon surveillance.  

I learned to use logic, to edit my every thought moment by moment, to parse 
out subliminal messages from surveillance and remote sensing technologies 
that do not fit my logical definition of my personal syntax and personality.  
You could also do the same, to make your writing style more professional and 
consistent.   Any time a violent word, slang word, or out of context word, 
comes up in speech or writing, you could assume it may be subliminal and not 
part of your normal personality, and edit it out in emails, to make your 
emails more readable and polite.  But if am wrong and you like to use violent 
language, and out of context phrases, then please excuse me, since that may 
be your preference. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/21/2003 10:32:01 PM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> You think i'm a nut </BLOCKQUO=
TE><BR>
<BR>
No, I do not think your a nut.&nbsp; You may be highly telepathic, and Telep=
ath's may pick up other peoples thoughts and ideas, which may come out in yo=
ur writing style at times, whether you are aware of it or not.&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
BR>
<BR>
I am developing alternative energy devices such as yourself, and I have prob=
lems with gangs, and governments shooting subliminal sound waves and radio w=
aves at me with echelon type surveillance technologies to prevent me from do=
ing research on the Internet, and running my businesses, and I assumed that=20=
you may be having similar problems, since your syntax seemed to be mixed wit=
h your own ideas, and the ideas of others, which could be natural telepathy=20=
or subliminal radio waves from echelon surveillance.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I learned to use logic, to edit my every thought moment by moment, to parse=20=
out subliminal messages from surveillance and remote sensing technologies th=
at do not fit my logical definition of my personal syntax and personality.&n=
bsp; You could also do the same, to make your writing style more professiona=
l and consistent.&nbsp;&nbsp; Any time a violent word, slang word, or out of=
 context word, comes up in speech or writing, you could assume it may be sub=
liminal and not part of your normal personality, and edit it out in emails,=20=
to make your emails more readable and polite.&nbsp; But if am wrong and you=20=
like to use violent language, and out of context phrases, then please excuse=
 me, since that may be your preference. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 23:00:56 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b7.2ebd46d9.2b8879cb aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:59:23 EST
Subject: Re: Communication with Respect     one point 
To: herman antioch-college.edu
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
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       The Sci. Comm is sadly  mistaken  if they think we need them.   They 
feel for it be accepted they have give there approval. Well, I figured out 
how to totally get around that.  99%  like say Tom  Bearden want to be 
accepted by Main stream. WHY?    because they have giant Ego's like main 
stream does.   

 THE key to beating them is we do not. WE only care about Business. WE 
totally care less about science. Or Recognition screw that give me the money. 
I will employ Ph.D. Phy. to wash my car. Because if their theory Base  house 
of cards  collapses witch I all ready know is going to be the case, they are 
back to square one.   

 Plus    I have no interest in EDU. The scientific comm. They are on there 
own. Science will be left out in the cold in regard to anything except visual 
demos is all they will get.  PLUS I know they have no math that will help 
them.  I'm only intersted in making Bus. Contacts.  The tech. center here is 
only allowed to say it works as advertised. And have to say they cannot 
explain it if they cannot.  They need us we do not need them and they known 
it. Can you find any holes in this plan.?  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 23:02:33 2003
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From: Keasy aol.com
Message-ID: <1ef.2910f1a.2b887a10 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 02:00:32 EST
Subject: Re: The nonsense comes from you
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In a message dated 2/21/2003 6:59:44 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
jonfli cox.net writes:

> I maintain a complete and well equipped electrical/electronics lab in my
> home and would like you to consider sending me one of the units for a
> complete evaluation under whatever load conditions you specify. I will use
> single and multiple phase power analyzers, scopes and other measuring
> devices that will allow full documentation to be produced of the test data.
> The only stipulation I have is that the test data would be published for 
> all
> to see. I am willing to sign an NDA of your choice for legal protection of
> the intellectual property.
> 

And I have the same kind of lab with the same capabilities and make the same 
offer with the same NDA and other protections for your legal and intellectual 
property.  

I might not be quite as acceptable because I do have advanced engineering 
degrees and 30 years experience in design and development.  That would not, 
however, change my reporting of what the instruments say.  

Two people willing to verify your claims -- you can take your choice --

                                                          Ken

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/21/2003 6:59:44 PM Mountain Stand=
ard Time, jonfli cox.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I maintain a complete and well=20=
equipped electrical/electronics lab in my<BR>
home and would like you to consider sending me one of the units for a<BR>
complete evaluation under whatever load conditions you specify. I will use<B=
R>
single and multiple phase power analyzers, scopes and other measuring<BR>
devices that will allow full documentation to be produced of the test data.<=
BR>
The only stipulation I have is that the test data would be published for all=
<BR>
to see. I am willing to sign an NDA of your choice for legal protection of<B=
R>
the intellectual property.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And I have the same kind of lab with the same capabilities and make the same=
 offer with the same NDA and other protections for your legal and intellectu=
al property.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I might not be quite as acceptable because I do have advanced engineering de=
grees and 30 years experience in design and development.&nbsp; That would no=
t, however, change my reporting of what the instruments say.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Two people willing to verify your claims -- you can take your choice --<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 21 23:42:39 2003
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From: "John Collins" <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
To: vortex<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 07:41:37 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Jack Carey
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Interesting history here - <http://www.phact.org/e/z/jcarey_dec.htm>

J.CollinsJohn Collins, author of:-
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
A second edition of this book will be available soon, under the title
"Blueprint for Free Energy".  You can keep an eye on progress towards 
publication
by visiting my web site from time to time at www.free-energy.co.uk



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 07:25:51 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <1ea.298d313.2b88f00f aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:23:59 EST
Subject: Re: The quest for overunity
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com,
        JCarey9622 aol.com
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In a message dated 2/21/2003 10:32:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JCarey9622 aol.com writes:

> Because it does not involve any conversion of energy math at all  It is 
> actually high school  Physics you missed  it   It went right by you

For all overunity energy devices, the efficiency = output/input must be 101 
percent or more.  And a overunity device must deal with friction and heat 
transfer so that it must be even more than 101 percent efficient.  
Alternative overunity energy devices may pull in energies, from the 
environment, that are greater than the friction, heat loss, and input energy 
of a motor or energy device.   A simple transistor collects electrons, at a 
base or energy sink, and then emits electrons that are amplified or of 
greater energy.   A cold fusion reaction also collects electrical energy to 
break up the hydrogen from the oxygen  by electrolysis, to use the chemical 
energy to change the bond angle relation between the hydrogen  and the 
palladium atom, to create an implosion or cold fusion reaction to emit more 
energy similar to a transistor.   A transistor and a cold fusion reaction all 
manipulate trinary phase relationships between the bond angles of atoms, 
chemicals, and electrical circuits to create trinary energy phase 
relationships, to collect, store, and emit a greater amount of energy than 
input.   

The physics of three phase or tri-phase systems, involve using 3 phase 
voltages and coils, 120 degrees apart, to create 3 separate wave forms, to be 
more efficient and increase the horsepower of 3 phase motor and generator 
systems.   The vector diagram showing the relationship between the phase and 
line voltages at 100 percent power in a 3 phase system, represent 3 diamonds, 
connected at the center, similar to the Mercedes  Benz symbol.   Most 
magnetic overunity motors, involve rotating magnetic coils on 3 separate 
spheres, or 3 magnetic circuits in opposition to each other, to manipulate 3 
phase or trinary magnetic energies, to be more efficient and to pull in 
environmental energies, to create overunity.   

There are similarities in all of the above alternative energy and overunity 
devices which manipulate trinary phase relationships ideally to create 100 
percent or greater efficiency between geometric bond and circuit angles, and 
energy forces such as chemical energies, electrical energies, nuclear and 
magnetic energies, within all component parts of the motor or generator to 
create super resonance between all components to be more efficient.   The 
flux capacitor used in the Back to the Future movie staring Michael J. Fox, 
used trinary phase circuits and sonofusion, to create cold fusion nuclear 
reactions with tin or metal, to get enough power to travel back in time with 
an energy flux capacitor. 

All of the above overunity energy technologies, exist such as cold fusion, 
and are working, but are repressed by politics, business, and governments.  
Since such inventions already exist, I do not need to reinvent the wheel in 
energy and motor science, but simply create a political environment, where 
the inventors who have the credentials and have put in the hard work, may 
present their ideas openly  and safely, to the public, and make a fair profit 
from them in the mass market.  From the web page at <A HREF="http://www.lenr-canr.org/">http://www.lenr-canr.org/</A> 
under the  a look at experiments link <A HREF="http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm">
http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm</A> Ed Storms has already produced a 
working cold fusion device, which only needs the proper funding to prefect 
the technology testing and duplication procedures, and a safe market and 
political environment to get it going publicly. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/21/2003 10:32:01 PM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, JCarey9622 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Because it does not involve any=
 conversion of energy math at all&nbsp; It is <BR>
actually high school&nbsp; Physics you missed&nbsp; it&nbsp;&nbsp; It went r=
ight by you</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
For all overunity energy devices, the efficiency =3D output/input must be 10=
1 percent or more.&nbsp; And a overunity device must deal with friction and=20=
heat transfer so that it must be even more than 101 percent efficient.&nbsp;=
 Alternative overunity energy devices may pull in energies, from the environ=
ment, that are greater than the friction, heat loss, and input energy of a m=
otor or energy device.&nbsp;&nbsp; A simple transistor collects electrons, a=
t a base or energy sink, and then emits electrons that are amplified or of g=
reater energy.&nbsp;&nbsp; A cold fusion reaction also collects electrical e=
nergy to break up the hydrogen from the oxygen&nbsp; by electrolysis, to use=
 the chemical energy to change the bond angle relation between the hydrogen&=
nbsp; and the palladium atom, to create an implosion or cold fusion reaction=
 to emit more energy similar to a transistor.&nbsp;&nbsp; A transistor and a=
 cold fusion reaction all manipulate trinary phase relationships between the=
 bond angles of atoms, chemicals, and electrical circuits to create trinary=20=
energy phase relationships, to collect, store, and emit a greater amount of=20=
energy than input.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The physics of three phase or tri-phase systems, involve using 3 phase volta=
ges and coils, 120 degrees apart, to create 3 separate wave forms, to be mor=
e efficient and increase the horsepower of 3 phase motor and generator syste=
ms.&nbsp;&nbsp; The vector diagram showing the relationship between the phas=
e and line voltages at 100 percent power in a 3 phase system, represent 3 di=
amonds, connected at the center, similar to the Mercedes&nbsp; Benz symbol.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Most magnetic overunity motors, involve rotating magnetic coils=20=
on 3 separate spheres, or 3 magnetic circuits in opposition to each other, t=
o manipulate 3 phase or trinary magnetic energies, to be more efficient and=20=
to pull in environmental energies, to create overunity.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are similarities in all of the above alternative energy and overunity=20=
devices which manipulate trinary phase relationships ideally to create 100 p=
ercent or greater efficiency between geometric bond and circuit angles, and=20=
energy forces such as chemical energies, electrical energies, nuclear and ma=
gnetic energies, within all component parts of the motor or generator to cre=
ate super resonance between all components to be more efficient.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 The flux capacitor used in the Back to the Future movie staring Michael J.=20=
Fox, used trinary phase circuits and sonofusion, to create cold fusion nucle=
ar reactions with tin or metal, to get enough power to travel back in time w=
ith an energy flux capacitor. <BR>
<BR>
All of the above overunity energy technologies, exist such as cold fusion, a=
nd are working, but are repressed by politics, business, and governments.&nb=
sp; Since such inventions already exist, I do not need to reinvent the wheel=
 in energy and motor science, but simply create a political environment, whe=
re the inventors who have the credentials and have put in the hard work, may=
 present their ideas openly&nbsp; and safely, to the public, and make a fair=
 profit from them in the mass market.&nbsp; From the web page at <A HREF=3D"=
http://www.lenr-canr.org/">http://www.lenr-canr.org/</A> under the&nbsp; a l=
ook at experiments link <A HREF=3D"http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm"=
>http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm</A> Ed Storms has already produced=
 a working cold fusion device, which only needs the proper funding to prefec=
t the technology testing and duplication procedures, and a safe market and p=
olitical environment to get it going publicly. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 07:37:01 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <123.1e93a159.2b88f2b3 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:35:15 EST
Subject: I'm trying again
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I improved my paper and sent to to Physica review A.

I see how hard it is to present new ideas.

Let's see what they say.

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I improved my paper and sent to to Physica review A.<B=
R>
<BR>
I see how hard it is to present new ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Let's see what they say.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 13:39:27 2003
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Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:36:15 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 08:35:27 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <r7rf5vscl417i024t41p4md2ckfcf341la 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500ba7c0d51c873 [12.21.211.130]>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:51:50 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]
>No "additional" momentum must be carried by the photon for the photon to
>have and/or carry mass and yet have rest mass zero
[snip]
What they are trying to determine is whether or not it has a rest mass of zero.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 14:02:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <179.165e3fdb.2b894c75 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:58:13 EST
Subject: Fwd: Jack Carey
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Return-path: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
Message-ID: <15.ae4cf8e.2b88f171 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:29:53 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com
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 Subj:  Re: Jack Carey  
Date:   2/22/03 2:42:52 AM Eastern Standard Time    
From:   <A HREF="mailto:jcollins free-energy.co.uk">jcollins@free-energy.co.uk</A>  
Reply-to:   <A HREF="mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> 
To: <A HREF="mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> 
Sent from the Internet (Details)    

Interesting history here - <http://www.phact.org/e/z/jcarey_dec.htm>

J.CollinsJohn Collins, author of:-
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
A second edition of this book will be available soon, under the title
"Blueprint for Free Energy".  You can keep an eye on progress towards 
publication by visiting my web site from time to time at 
www.free-energy.co.uk

 Mr Collins 

Sir it is pleasure to meet you. Do they call you a Kook also.?   And thank 
you sir for saying my totally psycho babble writings of an Idiot kook madman 
as I call them are interesting. They bore me to the point I need a drink 
sometimes several.   You apparently have the world class level visionary mind 
it requires to read them. Very few do Eric Kreig was kind enough to post them 
but he did so to ridicule me. But some as you appear can see past there nose. 


Do you know of Patrick Cadore the Pub. director at Sterling Publications in 
London. They are the Mcgraw Hill of Europe. They had called out of the blue 
last year from a mail of mine someone sent them who I did not know. They 
spoke with me for 3 Hr. and called back. But when I informed all the Big 
Corp. they called.  I think pressure was put on them not to Pub.  Because 
they Pub. Business to Business  pub's There no is 44 20 7915 9660 or I think  
0809 gets around the switch board 

  FYI Sir we are working on A device currently that we will not call 
perpetual motion but the SCI. comm will. The CadCam work is being worked on 
as we speak the next step is computer stress testing, then the build the 
prototype.  It functions in theory.  It could be scaled up to operate 
electric CO. dyno's or a generator for your house. Or an electric motor that 
will drive your car.  It makes the operational Phase conversion which proves 
the first new electrical theory in a century appear as a Tinker Toy. In 
comparison.  It is driven by a power source called Tacyons ? spelling  

 That is the power source that creates our gravity and they are emitted by 
stars. Because power has to come from somewhere and in this case is used not 
converter which is the key they have been seeking for century's . As the 
greatest of them all Nicola Tesla said it is far easier to use an atom than 
split it.  He was totally correct and Einstein was incorrect when he 
supported splitting them.  Can you possibly grasp with your apparently 
visionary mind the conceptual aspects of the futuristic science fiction level 
dynamics I reviled to you.  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2> Subj:  <B>Re: Jack Carey=
 </B> <BR>
Date:   2/22/03 2:42:52 AM Eastern Standard Time    <BR>
From:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:jcollins free-energy.co.uk">jcollins@free-energy.c=
o.uk</A>  <BR>
Reply-to:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> <=
BR>
To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> <BR>
<I>Sent from the Internet (Details)</I>    <BR>
<BR>
Interesting history here - &lt;http://www.phact.org/e/z/jcarey_dec.htm&gt;<B=
R>
<BR>
J.CollinsJohn Collins, author of:-<BR>
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"<BR>
A second edition of this book will be available soon, under the title<BR>
"Blueprint for Free Energy".&nbsp; You can keep an eye on progress towards <=
BR>
publication by visiting my web site from time to time at www.free-energy.co.=
uk<BR>
<BR>
 Mr Collins <BR>
<BR>
Sir it is pleasure to meet you. Do they call you a Kook also.?&nbsp;&nbsp; A=
nd thank you sir for saying my totally psycho babble writings of an Idiot ko=
ok madman as I call them are interesting. They bore me to the point I need a=
 drink sometimes several.&nbsp;&nbsp; You apparently have the world class le=
vel visionary mind it requires to read them. Very few do Eric Kreig was kind=
 enough to post them but he did so to ridicule me. But some as you appear ca=
n see past there nose. <BR>
<BR>
Do you know of Patrick Cadore the Pub. director at Sterling Publications in=20=
London. They are the Mcgraw Hill of Europe. They had called out of the blue=20=
last year from a mail of mine someone sent them who I did not know. They spo=
ke with me for 3 Hr. and called back. But when I informed all the Big Corp.=20=
they called.&nbsp; I think pressure was put on them not to Pub.&nbsp; Becaus=
e they Pub. Business to Business&nbsp; pub's There no is 44 20 7915 9660 or=20=
I think&nbsp; 0809 gets around the switch board <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; FYI Sir we are working on A device currently that we will not call pe=
rpetual motion but the SCI. comm will. The CadCam work is being worked on as=
 we speak the next step is computer stress testing, then the build the proto=
type.&nbsp; It functions in theory.&nbsp; It could be scaled up to operate e=
lectric CO. dyno's or a generator for your house. Or an electric motor that=20=
will drive your car.&nbsp; It makes the operational Phase conversion which p=
roves the first new electrical theory in a century appear as a Tinker Toy. I=
n comparison.&nbsp; It is driven by a power source called Tacyons ? spelling=
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 That is the power source that creates our gravity and they are emitted by s=
tars. Because power has to come from somewhere and in this case is used not=20=
converter which is the key they have been seeking for century's . As the gre=
atest of them all Nicola Tesla said it is far easier to use an atom than spl=
it it.&nbsp; He was totally correct and Einstein was incorrect when he suppo=
rted splitting them.&nbsp; Can you possibly grasp with your apparently visio=
nary mind the conceptual aspects of the futuristic science fiction level dyn=
amics I reviled to you.&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1ee.2a08247.2b894cb8 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:59:20 EST
Subject: Fwd: Jack Carey  I looked at your site 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Return-path: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
Message-ID: <6e.2ac92887.2b88fe95 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:25:57 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey  I looked at your site 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com
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In a message dated 2/22/03 2:42:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jcollins free-energy.co.uk writes:
          John    The answer your looking for is contained in high school 
physics.  The wheel was machinist trick but it functioned.     Main stream 
science is going to have a cry baby hissey fit because i'm going to take 
there  suckers made of theory away from them   Because the operational 
dynamics of it Per se will be totally devoid of there conversion of energy 
theories.  

Whereas as with phase conversion which is a new conversion process of 
electricity they can rant and rave about it Because it deals with conversion 
of energy theories.  But it will not do them any good to try and discredit 
it.  In 1712 he did not have to contend with a sci. comm that was pumped full 
of restrictive roadblock causing theories and laws,  as there is now. That 
they are full of. That caused them to be placed in boxes 

It is called a Catch 22  That is why he was able to create what he did. 
Because he did not have theory spouting morons in his way or blocking. him.  
As they do now in order to protect there little worlds. I can not blame them 
it is all they have. Without those theories they are basically zero's and 
there giant counter productive arrogant snide remark making  ego's are 
totally crushed. .  

 Understand that problem impedes progress. So I intent to totally discredit 
them. To the point they are no longer listened to. Then I can create an 
invention based Sci. Comm. Because it will be necessary, if we as a 
civilization are ever going to evolve.  That is when me and you will have the 
part of the century. When we burn Ph.D. types at the stake so to speak in 
effigy   Bend over boys daddy is almost home. 

> www.free-energy.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/22/0=
3 2:42:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jcollins free-energy.co.uk writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; John&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; The answer your looking for is contained in high school physics.&nbsp; The=
 wheel was machinist trick but it functioned.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Main s=
tream science is going to have a cry baby hissey fit because i'm going to ta=
ke there&nbsp; suckers made of theory away from them&nbsp;&nbsp; Because the=
 operational dynamics of it Per se will be totally devoid of there conversio=
n of energy theories.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Whereas as with phase conversion which is a new conversion process of electr=
icity they can rant and rave about it Because it deals with conversion of en=
ergy theories.&nbsp; But it will not do them any good to try and discredit i=
t.&nbsp; In 1712 he did not have to contend with a sci. comm that was pumped=
 full of restrictive roadblock causing theories and laws,&nbsp; as there is=20=
now. That they are full of. That caused them to be placed in boxes <BR>
<BR>
It is called a Catch 22&nbsp; That is why he was able to create what he did.=
 Because he did not have theory spouting morons in his way or blocking. him.=
&nbsp; As they do now in order to protect there little worlds. I can not bla=
me them it is all they have. Without those theories they are basically zero'=
s and there giant counter productive arrogant snide remark making&nbsp; ego'=
s are totally crushed. .&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Understand that problem impedes progress. So I intent to totally discredit=20=
them. To the point they are no longer listened to. Then I can create an inve=
ntion based Sci. Comm. Because it will be necessary, if we as a civilization=
 are ever going to evolve.&nbsp; That is when me and you will have the part=20=
of the century. When we burn Ph.D. types at the stake so to speak in effigy&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Bend over boys daddy is almost home. <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
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<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 14:04:27 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Fwd: Jack Carey   your theory john 
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Return-path: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
Message-ID: <155.1c257815.2b890d50 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:28:48 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey   your theory john 
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In a message dated 2/22/03 2:42:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jcollins free-energy.co.uk writes:

         Your close  but anti gravity is using the  natural magnetic fields 
which are all together different that gravity. They do not relate because 
they have different cause factors. They are caused by the inter action of 
neutrinos with the iron deposits and vary depending on the density of those 
deposits in a given location.

 The planet is bombarded by neutrinos that are emitted by stars as Tacyons 
are. . So it is the biggest battery there is and in turn it generates 
frequency's that are a natural power source that,  vary from 8.5 yo 8.9 . The 
phase conversion uses those natural frequency's during the conversion 
process.  We call them free electrons which is a misnomer but that way 
science has something to relate to. 

Otherwise they are totally lost. In attempting to understand the evolutionary 
new Phase conversion of elect. concepts.  Actually the process did feed back 
to the power CO. the wires are still hanging loose where three was once a 
transformer that became cooked because of that. But the power CO did not like 
that so that aspect was diminished so that would not happen.

 Phase conversion burns the entire unit of electricity Including the current 
wasted kinetic energy aspects as a 99% gas fire place does.  If you factor it 
the natural frequency's your taking from the earth that gives you the added 
factor that can create a feed back to the power CO.     DO NOT EVER FORGET 
THIS      as I said Power Has To Come from Somewhere that is either used as a 
gravity driven unit would or converted. as the phase conversion is 
accomplishing. Two totally different situations. They do not relate.

 That is where science cannot grasp it. Because they are looking for 
situations that relate to each other. The glaring problem that you may be 
seeing now is they do not. Because they only understand 3 D. Because that is 
what there theories restrict them to thinking.   I hoped that helped you SIR.

 Plus  you have a heavy dose of Nicola Tesla and Faraday Plus some Hertz. 
Kaluza with Kline's help in the 20's using Einstein and some Tesla as a bases 
 and proved with math there was a 5 Th. force but he could not demonstrate 
it. It is a combination of the four known forces.  It is not the Grand 
Unification Theories. That is basically not possible because of all the new 
theories that the future will offer, that will basically replace the ones 
there are now.  That is basically 23 rd. century level concept knowledge. And 
do not think it is not. But do as you wish. Good Luck in your quest.  

> www.free-energy.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/22/0=
3 2:42:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jcollins free-energy.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Your close&nbsp; but anti g=
ravity is using the&nbsp; natural magnetic fields which are all together dif=
ferent that gravity. They do not relate because they have different cause fa=
ctors. They are caused by the inter action of neutrinos with the iron deposi=
ts and vary depending on the density of those deposits in a given location.<=
BR>
<BR>
 The planet is bombarded by neutrinos that are emitted by stars as Tacyons a=
re. . So it is the biggest battery there is and in turn it generates frequen=
cy's that are a natural power source that,&nbsp; vary from 8.5 yo 8.9 . The=20=
phase conversion uses those natural frequency's during the conversion proces=
s.&nbsp; We call them free electrons which is a misnomer but that way scienc=
e has something to relate to. <BR>
<BR>
Otherwise they are totally lost. In attempting to understand the evolutionar=
y new Phase conversion of elect. concepts.&nbsp; Actually the process did fe=
ed back to the power CO. the wires are still hanging loose where three was o=
nce a transformer that became cooked because of that. But the power CO did n=
ot like that so that aspect was diminished so that would not happen.<BR>
<BR>
 Phase conversion burns the entire unit of electricity Including the current=
 wasted kinetic energy aspects as a 99% gas fire place does.&nbsp; If you fa=
ctor it the natural frequency's your taking from the earth that gives you th=
e added factor that can create a feed back to the power CO.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; DO NOT EVER FORGET THIS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; as I said Powe=
r Has To Come from Somewhere that is either used as a gravity driven unit wo=
uld or converted. as the phase conversion is accomplishing. Two totally diff=
erent situations. They do not relate.<BR>
<BR>
 That is where science cannot grasp it. Because they are looking for situati=
ons that relate to each other. The glaring problem that you may be seeing no=
w is they do not. Because they only understand 3 D. Because that is what the=
re theories restrict them to thinking.&nbsp;&nbsp; I hoped that helped you S=
IR.<BR>
<BR>
 Plus&nbsp; you have a heavy dose of Nicola Tesla and Faraday Plus some Hert=
z. Kaluza with Kline's help in the 20's using Einstein and some Tesla as a b=
ases&nbsp; and proved with math there was a 5 Th. force but he could not dem=
onstrate it. It is a combination of the four known forces.&nbsp; It is not t=
he Grand Unification Theories. That is basically not possible because of all=
 the new theories that the future will offer, that will basically replace th=
e ones there are now.&nbsp; That is basically 23 rd. century level concept k=
nowledge. And do not think it is not. But do as you wish. Good Luck in your=20=
quest.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">www.free-energy.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 14:36:37 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <173.165b2b7e.2b8954ad aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:33:17 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey  A possible direction 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, sbishopa@sfu.ca
CC: eric voicenet.com, yahoo@ka9q.net, jcollins@free-energy.co.uk
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 Moray had been deeply inspired by the solution to the future fetus.  
They simply think that, since the unit is very highly nonlinear, 
nonlinear oscillation theory is a result of some of my own hard work in 
such higher symmetry em model, all the skeptics and conventional 
scientists not questioning the maxwell-heaviside em model, such as o(3) 
electrodynamics is necessary, or em immersed in quaternion algebra.


      To what extent may I ask Shawn are you looking at string and super 
string theories?   Because that is where the prime answers are   But it 
requires thinking far beyond 3 D to get there     Being a non tech. i do not 
understand the post. but our tech's do    But I know the corrrect path to 
take     

  Also only look at parts of Quantum Mechanics because  basically the 
majority died with Einstein let a lot of it go    .       and only parts of 
the 3 fold unified theory    You have to use aspects from each and combine 
them That is the prime KEY .  Also Look at Kaluza and Moray   And Tesla is 
the prime  Also Faraday  and Newton 

 And stay away from  the theory first thinking  because that is absolute 
prime roadblock  LOOK at it from the opposite  direction  and always keep it 
last in your thinking processes. Instead of first and please keep me advised  
if your able to progress   Maxwell just did not go far enough   You going to 
have to split electromagneism into 2 seperate situations     One Electricvity 
  Two magnetism   THis is the direction to take But do as you wish. I do not 
care. Good luck to you SIR 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 14:55:07 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <3d.2c584daf.2b8958f3 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:51:31 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] New Fiber optic communications Tech.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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          IDIOT  in Chicago   THE BUSINESS ASPECTS  ""NOT"" THE TECH. ASPECTS 
 IS WHERE I'm INVOLVED MORON apparently you CANNOT FIGURE THAT OUT.  YOU WORK 
FOR A, CO.  YOU DO NOT CREATE THEM correct? IF NOT YOU HAVE NO WAY TO RELATE. 
THAT I KNOW OF

  BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE in that realm AND THAT IS WHAT IS REQUIRED 
TO UNDERSTAND THAT ASPECT. Scientists do not create CO's. either to any 
extent they work for people that do or are in the edu. System. That is why 
they cannot relate either.  Personally I have to be able to understand many 
different mind sets. So I can attempt to use deductive reason to evaluate 
them.  In order to create business situations. In this case to coincide with 
advanced Tech. situations. 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> IDIOT&nbsp; in Chicago&nbsp;&nbsp; THE BUSI=
NESS ASPECTS&nbsp; ""NOT"" THE TECH. ASPECTS&nbsp; IS WHERE I'm INVOLVED MOR=
ON apparently you CANNOT FIGURE THAT OUT.&nbsp; YOU WORK FOR A, CO.&nbsp; YO=
U DO NOT CREATE THEM correct? IF NOT YOU HAVE NO WAY TO RELATE. THAT I KNOW=20=
OF<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE in that realm AND THAT IS WHAT IS REQU=
IRED TO UNDERSTAND THAT ASPECT. Scientists do not create CO's. either to any=
 extent they work for people that do or are in the edu. System. That is why=20=
they cannot relate either.&nbsp; Personally I have to be able to understand=20=
many different mind sets. So I can attempt to use deductive reason to evalua=
te them.&nbsp; In order to create business situations. In this case to coinc=
ide with advanced Tech. situations. </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 15:58:31 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b4.18c9157c.2b896775 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:53:25 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]   CHANGE 
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In a message dated 2/22/03 12:02:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
murdoch herecomesmongo.com writes:


> I can agree with one thing, which is that tolerance *can be*, in rare cases,
> over-rated in these groups.  If someone is needlessly disrespectful to you, 
> then
> I think it's up to your discretion to respond to that.

>    REPLY   Disrespect   is not an issue Fear of new situations that possibly 
> create change  is  i'M SORRY i'M NOT perfect as far as grammar     I 
> present new totally different situations that will create major changes and 
> we have because of our conformity taught edu.sysrem.   A country full of 
> totally closed and narrow minded people that jump to conclusions instead of 
> investigate. Because our media for one thing pumps them full of fear and my 
> presentations  causes a situation where there little worlds may totally 
> change.

    They are clueless how they will adjust if that happens and react 
adversely. Because they were not prepared to handle change. Whereas There > 
> forefathers had to be able to adjust.  They had no choice otherwise in many 
> cases they would not survive. The fear we saw after 911 was from that 
> programed edu. that was designed so they would be replacement parts only 
> for ones that were out. In the system. that solves their problems so they 
> think. 

     Whereas there forefathers did not have a system to solve their problems 
they had to solve them themselves. Because creative and free thinking is not 
taught there are very few open minds. Closed and narrow minds will be 
combative the vast majority of the time when they are confronted with 
possible situations. they cannot explain that may totally change there 
understanding.

 It happened 120 years ago when A/C current totally changed our society from 
a farm to an industrial situation. Because A/C gave us the bases for the 
industrial revolution without it there would have never been one. And we 
would still living as we had for century's with very little change. We had 
been riding horses since there was horses. But that change was welcomed 
because it was far better than what they had.and made life far easier to 
tolerate by relieving the burdens. This that is purposed will create the same 
situation but now we have the fear factor whereas then we did not.   
  
> But whatever is going on here, it is largely fueled by the shear number of 
> yourposts (you could pair them down so that some of us are not left with 
> too many posts to make any sense out of it), your constant references to 
> our lower
> intelligence (true or not, it's simply not necessary to always be harping 
> on it)
> and so forth.
> 
> May I ask how long you've been doing the online public discussion forum 
> thing?
> Perhaps you've been doing some forums for years, but some of these do come 
> off
> as "basic", so I'm wondering if some of this isn't just that you're excited 
> to
> have found a new way to communicate with afv-minded people.  This 
> aggressive
> let's-talk-on-the-phone, you're-stupid, you're-smart,
> failure-to-use-a-grammar-or-spellcheck thing makes me wonder, because these 
> just
> aren't done that often by those who just want a peaceful productive
> conversation.
> 
> Look, I and others are interested in some of your ideas, just as we expect 
> that
> eventually we might say something that might interest you, but it's hard to
> follow all this, as there are just too many posts and too much nonsense.  
> Are
> you using an email program to access this group (as most of us are) or are 
> you
> posting via the web?  If it's via the web, then the first thing would be to 
> fix
> that, because that's no way to go.  It's a waste of time, for you, compared 
> to
> using the forums via email.
> 
> Sincerely, 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/22/0=
3 12:02:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, murdoch herecomesmongo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I can agree with one thing, whi=
ch is that tolerance *can be*, in rare cases,<BR>
over-rated in these groups.&nbsp; If someone is needlessly disrespectful to=20=
you, then<BR>
I think it's up to your discretion to respond to that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Disrespect&nbsp;&nbsp; is no=
t an issue Fear of new situations that possibly create change&nbsp; is&nbsp;=
 i'M SORRY i'M NOT perfect as far as grammar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I prese=
nt new totally different situations that will create major changes and we ha=
ve because of our conformity taught edu.sysrem.&nbsp;&nbsp; A country full o=
f totally closed and narrow minded people that jump to conclusions instead o=
f investigate. Because our media for one thing pumps them full of fear and m=
y presentations&nbsp; causes a situation where there little worlds may total=
ly change.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They are=20=
clueless how they will adjust if that happens and react adversely. Because t=
hey were not prepared to handle change. Whereas There <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCIT=
E style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0=
px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">forefathers had to be able to adjust.&nbsp; They had=20=
no choice otherwise in many cases they would not survive. The fear we saw af=
ter 911 was from that programed edu. that was designed so they would be repl=
acement parts only for ones that were out. In the system. that solves their=20=
problems so they think. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-=
COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Whereas there forefathers did not have a system to=20=
solve their problems they had to solve them themselves. Because creative and=
 free thinking is not taught there are very few open minds. Closed and narro=
w minds will be combative the vast majority of the time when they are confro=
nted with possible situations. they cannot explain that may totally change t=
here understanding.<BR>
<BR>
 It happened 120 years ago when A/C current totally changed our society from=
 a farm to an industrial situation. Because A/C gave us the bases for the in=
dustrial revolution without it there would have never been one. And we would=
 still living as we had for century's with very little change. We had been r=
iding horses since there was horses. But that change was welcomed because it=
 was far better than what they had.and made life far easier to tolerate by r=
elieving the burdens. This that is purposed will create the same situation b=
ut now we have the fear factor whereas then we did not.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">But whatever is going on here, it is largely fueled by the=20=
shear number of yourposts (you could pair them down so that some of us are n=
ot left with too many posts to make any sense out of it), your constant refe=
rences to our lower<BR>
intelligence (true or not, it's simply not necessary to always be harping on=
 it)<BR>
and so forth.<BR>
<BR>
May I ask how long you've been doing the online public discussion forum thin=
g?<BR>
Perhaps you've been doing some forums for years, but some of these do come o=
ff<BR>
as "basic", so I'm wondering if some of this isn't just that you're excited=20=
to<BR>
have found a new way to communicate with afv-minded people.&nbsp; This aggre=
ssive<BR>
let's-talk-on-the-phone, you're-stupid, you're-smart,<BR>
failure-to-use-a-grammar-or-spellcheck thing makes me wonder, because these=20=
just<BR>
aren't done that often by those who just want a peaceful productive<BR>
conversation.<BR>
<BR>
Look, I and others are interested in some of your ideas, just as we expect t=
hat<BR>
eventually we might say something that might interest you, but it's hard to<=
BR>
follow all this, as there are just too many posts and too much nonsense.&nbs=
p; Are<BR>
you using an email program to access this group (as most of us are) or are y=
ou<BR>
posting via the web?&nbsp; If it's via the web, then the first thing would b=
e to fix<BR>
that, because that's no way to go.&nbsp; It's a waste of time, for you, comp=
ared to<BR>
using the forums via email.<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely, <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_b4.18c9157c.2b896775_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 16:34:16 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <156.1c349d96.2b897073 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 19:31:47 EST
Subject:  To John Herman at antioch  college
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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            Mail Is just to difficult  to achieve a new opposite 
understanding  as I said.  BTDT  several times.    If you wish to evolve It 
will be necessary to call. Because  as far as I know I'm going to have to  
dismantal your understanding  of A/C current and create a new one. On  the 
concept only because that is as far as we go. Because Tech. operational 
dynamics are the bases for our new  Co  and they do not get Pub or the new 
equations because visual demos can be provided   810 618 9234    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 17:04:00 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <19b.115b8848.2b897765 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:01:25 EST
Subject:  one phone call to a 50 million tech is all it takes. 
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         You can call the new 50 million dollar state of the art tech center 
here that is named after the billionaire CS Mott Who was the prime builder of 
GM. Their Executive dean and their top Eng. saw operational Along with a non 
Eng. vice president of Kettering Univ. formally General Motors Institute. The 
phase conversion  And will be testing  They were totally clueless 

  Now no one in 30 years including Nobel level minds has clue one but cannot 
deny it functions as advertised. Ask For Dave Roach 810 762 0200 It proves 
from just viewing without testing but can be tested the first new theory in a 
century. It is that plain and simple to see.  If so pitch what you know. 
Because it is just the opposite of what you know.  But thanks for the offer. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 17:10:55 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <44.2e115ad2.2b8978e8 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:07:52 EST
Subject:   ken and jon do you boys want to evolve ?
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       call each other because your very differnt from each other and that is 
interesting  one is self taught and the other is formal taught     then call 
me on a 3 way at 810 618 9234 

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:51:45 EST
Subject: Re: Debunking new ideas
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In a message dated 2/21/03 9:09:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom aol.com 
writes:


> Jacks description of his three phase energy machine fits the same 3 phase 
> energy properties of a cold fusion reaction.  The more successful a person 
> becomes in inventing an idea, the more frenzied they may become due to the 
> political pressures of presenting the idea to the general public.  
> 
>      AS USUAL  is this all you know how to do is make crystal ball judgment 
calls  please tell me the secret so i can do it    


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/21/0=
3 9:09:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jacks description of his three=20=
phase energy machine fits the same 3 phase energy properties of a cold fusio=
n reaction.&nbsp; The more successful a person becomes in inventing an idea,=
 the more frenzied they may become due to the political pressures of present=
ing the idea to the general public.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; AS USUAL&nbsp; is this all you know how to do is make crystal ball=
 judgment calls&nbsp; please tell me the secret so i can do it&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 18:52:01 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <11.aefb65f.2b8990f3 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:50:27 EST
Subject: If Tom can sense low frequency's 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: e.kramer earthlink.net, ted.loder@unh.edu
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    IF HE CAN SENSE low frequency's like HAARP  generates  they can have 
effects on him. I know people that can and it bothers them.  I have been in 
their presents when it happened. One was on Einstein and Tesla's level  so he 
knew every time they fired up HAARP   

 If those pin heads are not careful they could burn the atmosphere off this 
planet. They are blowing holes in the biosphere Understand those frequency''s 
are a power source.  There is a conversion process that would capture them 
and convert them into usable power but it is exotic.  Along with the say 
50,000 watts your local radio station generates that power is in the 
atmosphere. HAARP has to be shut down 

  But that conversion process it is not going to be done because of a pending 
new situation.  Tesla knew the possible problems it could cause.  For 
instance when they used high frequency's witch were basically tacyons and 
they converted them.  Instead of what i was saying witch was  use them   

 And the result was the situation Tesla and Einstein together gave the Govt. 
the bases for it was the  Philadelphia experiment  which caused a rift in 
time. but it closed.   THAT is the problem Tesla understood Converting is not 
the way. I'm  very serious that has just been figured out.

  As Steven Greer is doing with his device that is converting neutrinos and 
the unit will  be radioactive in 2500 years. Your body converts them  but 
that is natural   not man made  If your electrically  driven that is a 
frequency's what does HAARP generate ? 

. If they exist they have systems that are a combination of Ion, Anti matter 
and a form of hydrogen propulsion Ponder that one Because I have never told 
anyone that . If this is so along with this other babble Science knows 
basically zero. I have basically zero understanding of the  physics aspects 
of this. or any thing else scientific i run my mouth about    You said i talk 
nothing but nonsense so now you have some more. even more so.  Some of you 
have a great deal to lose. If your theories go up in smoke don't 
you.Gentlemen  ?  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 20:02:42 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1c1.578e32d.2b89a163 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:00:35 EST
Subject: to keasy 
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In a message dated 2/22/03 2:03:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, Keasy aol.com 
writes:


> I might not be quite as acceptable because I do have advanced engineering 
> degrees and 30 years experience in design and development.  That would not, 
> however, change my reporting of what the instruments say.  
> 
>   You have credentials he does not.  All Mott can do all basically anyone 
can do unless they know Tesla or Wayne Cochran  inside and out and you were 
not taught Tesla that I know of      is say it functions as advertised.  
Infinite Energy had a 1500 dollar test meter when they were here and built an 
obsolete version with our instructions.   

They were and are totally clueless   The new equation is """"Electron Flow 
Without Creating an EMF  """"" that sinks  electrical physics.   If known 
math will not explain  that is the end of electrical engineering  as a 
profession   as far as i can see   Period  

 The only place you can see anything that is different is on  an oscilloscope 
 wave pattern  But it tells you zero. Unless you understand natural earth 
provided frequency's and the  currently wasted kinetic  energy aspects of A/C 
current..    high school  physics indicates the aspects the exist.    


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/22/0=
3 2:03:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, Keasy aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I might not be quite as accepta=
ble because I do have advanced engineering degrees and 30 years experience i=
n design and development.&nbsp; That would not, however, change my reporting=
 of what the instruments say.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; You have=
 credentials he does not.&nbsp; All Mott can do all basically anyone can do=20=
unless they know Tesla or Wayne Cochran&nbsp; inside and out and you were no=
t taught Tesla that I know of&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is say it functi=
ons as advertised.&nbsp; Infinite Energy had a 1500 dollar test meter when t=
hey were here and built an obsolete version with our instructions.&nbsp;&nbs=
p; <BR>
<BR>
They were and are totally clueless&nbsp;&nbsp; The new equation is """"Elect=
ron Flow Without Creating an EMF&nbsp; """"" that sinks&nbsp; electrical phy=
sics.&nbsp;&nbsp; If known math will not explain&nbsp; that is the end of el=
ectrical engineering&nbsp; as a profession&nbsp;&nbsp; as far as i can see&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Period&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 The only place you can see anything that is different is on&nbsp; an oscill=
oscope&nbsp; wave pattern&nbsp; But it tells you zero. Unless you understand=
 natural earth provided frequency's and the&nbsp; currently wasted kinetic&n=
bsp; energy aspects of A/C current..&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; high school&nbsp; phy=
sics indicates the aspects the exist.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <bc.348808a2.2b89acde aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:49:34 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Some background on Mr. Carey
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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In a message dated 2/22/03 10:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
berndtdw c-b.com writes:
       I was not made a Corp. officer for a reason  Because i used the Chief 
Scientist of the Delphi's corp. mail that said he did not understand anything 
we showed him. To gain creditability . 28 complaints were filed by major  
corp's from across the planet with the State of Michigan accusing me of 
stealing their identities. The State was laughing when they called. 
I guess i went to far and it had an effect on there ego's   

Wayne had prepared that mail just in case. It went out twice That Oct. send 
out was over a different situation.    it went out again in the spring of 
2002  Because Carls mail is dated in DEC of 2001  I would  have to check 
.There are now  two Corp. factions  our side is the only one that can dev. 
anything. And the other side is attempting the same thing by sending out mail 
also because Gene Mallove got one.  

 Understand many saw his situations up to 20 years ago and knew he was real.  
GE, Gm DOW Corning If I would have been a Corp. officer they could have sued. 
Now why would I go to NYC in Apr. 2002 to a venture capital situation or a 3 
week west coast in 2002    The Mott tech. center  had only had dealings with 
me then they met Wayne in the fall of 2002. along with Kettering. They all 
met at my store then saw the demo at Wayne's. He had to put that out to avoid 
getting sued. Dan is attempting a game Sorry Dan it did not work.    .  Is 
this the best you can do? . The Russian Pub came out in the spring of 2002 
with my picture on it .   DAN did you check me out at GM and find out I was 
real ??? Anyone can call Mott and check  

> There was a really intense "unique" person, Jack Carey, out 
> ticking people off with his grandiose promises and flames concerning 
> a company called Confidential Technologies in Flint Mi which 
> is said to be doing something related to FE.  Jack has said that 
> they get some funding from Dennis Lee.  Jack has said a lot. 
> But someone purporting to be the owner of the company just said: 
> 
> Confidential conf wrote: 
> 
> October 24, 2001 
>    This letter is to inform you that from this date forward Jack 
> Carey no 
> longer has any affiliation with or authorization to conduct business 
> of any 
> kind in the name of or for Confidential Technologies. 
> 
>    All business inquires and correspondence should be submitted to 
> the 
> following e-mail address conftec hotmail.com. 
> 
>     would like to take this opportunity to 
> apologize for any inconvenience anyone has had to endure do to Mr. 
> Carey's 
> misrepresentation and misconduct. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> 
> Wayne Cochran 
> CEO Confidential Technologies 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/22/0=
3 10:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I was not made a Corp. officer for a re=
ason&nbsp; Because i used the Chief Scientist of the Delphi's corp. mail tha=
t said he did not understand anything we showed him. To gain creditability .=
 28 complaints were filed by major&nbsp; corp's from across the planet with=20=
the State of Michigan accusing me of stealing their identities. The State wa=
s laughing when they called. <BR>
I guess i went to far and it had an effect on there ego's&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Wayne had prepared that mail just in case. It went out twice That Oct. send=20=
out was over a different situation.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it went out again in t=
he spring of 2002&nbsp; Because Carls mail is dated in DEC of 2001&nbsp; I w=
ould&nbsp; have to check .There are now&nbsp; two Corp. factions&nbsp; our s=
ide is the only one that can dev. anything. And the other side is attempting=
 the same thing by sending out mail also because Gene Mallove got one.&nbsp;=
 <BR>
<BR>
 Understand many saw his situations up to 20 years ago and knew he was real.=
&nbsp; GE, Gm DOW Corning If I would have been a Corp. officer they could ha=
ve sued. Now why would I go to NYC in Apr. 2002 to a venture capital situati=
on or a 3 week west coast in 2002&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Mott tech. center&nb=
sp; had only had dealings with me then they met Wayne in the fall of 2002. a=
long with Kettering. They all met at my store then saw the demo at Wayne's.=20=
He had to put that out to avoid getting sued. Dan is attempting a game Sorry=
 Dan it did not work.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .&nbsp; Is this the best you can do?=
 . The Russian Pub came out in the spring of 2002 with my picture on it .&nb=
sp;&nbsp; DAN did you check me out at GM and find out I was real ??? Anyone=20=
can call Mott and check&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">There was a really intense "uni=
que" person, Jack Carey, out <BR>
ticking people off with his grandiose promises and flames concerning <BR>
a company called Confidential Technologies in Flint Mi which <BR>
is said to be doing something related to FE.&nbsp; Jack has said that <BR>
they get some funding from Dennis Lee.&nbsp; Jack has said a lot. <BR>
But someone purporting to be the owner of the company just said: <BR>
<BR>
Confidential conf wrote: <BR>
<BR>
October 24, 2001 <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; This letter is to inform you that from this date forward Jack <=
BR>
Carey no <BR>
longer has any affiliation with or authorization to conduct business <BR>
of any <BR>
kind in the name of or for Confidential Technologies. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; All business inquires and correspondence should be submitted to=
 <BR>
the <BR>
following e-mail address conftec hotmail.com. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; would like to take this opportunity to <BR>
apologize for any inconvenience anyone has had to endure do to Mr. <BR>
Carey's <BR>
misrepresentation and misconduct. <BR>
<BR>
Sincerely, <BR>
<BR>
Wayne Cochran <BR>
CEO Confidential Technologies <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Message-ID: <20030223051557.66577.qmail web40404.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:15:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The nonsense comes from you
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <1ef.2910f1a.2b887a10 aol.com>
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Me too...


Ok.  That makes three of us.  You now have three independants avaliable
to evaluate and varify 'working sample'.  

Although I Am positave that nove of us will have to lift a finger beyong
strikeing the keys of there keyboard.

 
--- Keasy aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/21/2003 6:59:44 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
> jonfli cox.net writes:
> 
> > I maintain a complete and well equipped electrical/electronics lab in
> my
> > home and would like you to consider sending me one of the units for a
> > complete evaluation under whatever load conditions you specify. I
> will use
<<HACK>>

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 22 21:51:55 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <3d.2c5aee6c.2b89bae5 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 00:49:25 EST
Subject: When do you want to come boys ? 
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   When do you want to come?  Dennis lee was here in one day.  And stayed 3   
 plus flew 4 of us out for week    Infinite energy was here in 3 days  Bruce 
meland was here when the Toyota corp flew him to near by state he is the 
editor of e times  Gary vesperman and DR Ralph Cruise  who is a world class 
physicists and has been featured in  many Doc's  Flew   from Vegas then drove 
from Chicago with a Ph.D. M.E  

 an  international film maker was here from Melbourne on a fact finder for a 
planned Doc. He is backed by Discovery Canada  The Aust Broadcasting Co. And 
The Aust govt     ALL were clueless  But cannot deny it functions as 
advertised The Vesperman group    did not even  bring their test meters out 
of the mini van  They did not need to  It was that plain to see.  that it 
proved the first new theory in a century.         C ford your a snide 
remarking know it all the other two  appear as class acts. Without attitudes 
otherwise gentlemen   not an arrogant jerk off like you ford   I have seen 
your mails before ford 

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 09:10:27 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]   Hardly a marketing comment
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         George   I have  been at this 3  years and have to deal with all 
types of people and have  been able to form the bases of what could be a 
giant CO. without so much as a web site with demos on it.  I was able to 
accomplish the feat by  learning evolutionary new concepts from the 
futuristic Dev's. of new situations. That sometimes were roadblocks because 
of their paranoid. actions witch were justified to an extent considering what 
they had developed, witch were world changing situations.

That many large corp's had seen up to 20 years ago but only wanted to control 
and that was not going to happen. They knew they were to far ahead of their 
time but they had to test the water to see what reactions were going to be. 
After scaring the hell out of many major corp. with there abilities they 
found out what the reactions were, witch was they almost got killed. By 
chance I met them and they felt timing was finally right to proceed by 
creating there own situation,. as opposed to aliening with a large corp 
situation. 

They understood they could not promote themselves. And that is where I came 
in. This is a type 13 planet which means people are not very forward looking 
to any extent. They are very set in there ways with attitudes of it has 
always been this way and how else can it be any different. That comes from 
their closed and narrow minded thinking and their belief they know all there 
is to know. 

 When they are confronted by new situations that they feel may upset there 
apple carts 98% of the time they react in combative manors. Instead of having 
investigative thinking processes. In this country those abilities are 
programed out of people by the edu. system. You Brits have a better EDU. 
system than we do. at this point in history if  America was being subjected 
to the blitz as your country was the majority would fold in a new York minute

Instead of stand together whereas say in the 50's they would not have. 
Because then we had a strong family unit that the Govt. systematically 
attempted to break up after they had there actions questioned and rebelled 
against during Vietnam Since then they have attempted to keep the public as 
uniformed as much as they can possible can.  It is called control. by keeping 
the masses belly's full they will not rebel.

 The Jewish in Germany who had all the money after world war one did not do 
that. When the non Jewish Germans had basically nothing and they resented 
their rich countrymen for not sharing and we know what the result of that 
mistake was. Greed is back in full force but now it is Corp. greed and it 
will be there demise also. WE only revile so much but people think we are 
required to tell them everything and when we do not. They cop an attitude 98% 
of the time especially when they cannot grasp even the concepts. 

And main stream science who have big ego's and think they know everything 
react adversely. When they fined out they know very little from a non 
scientific source like me that has no use for them anyway Then the combative 
situations compound. The non sci. thinking business types couldn't care less 
how something functions all they care about is if it does. 

I react all together different to non combative people than I do to combative 
ones like shit or get off the pot in Chicago acts. Scientific types have a 
great deal to lose if there theory supported house of cards collapses on 
them. The smart open minded ones attempt to evolve.  Because it is easier for 
them to see the hand writing on the wall. The closed. narrow minded ones will 
not look at it in fear it may be correct and do not. Attempt to evolve 
because of that fact. 

I explain this way because of the futuristic evolutionary nature of the 
situations I deal with. This is not a new can opener they are world level 
changing situations and that is not my perception or delusional thinking as 
many think. I'm attempting to create a CO.  Once that has been accomplished 
I'm out of here and back to driving fast cars and chasing women Witch is what 
I do in the summer and party until 3 in the morning.

 But this is the dead of winter and fast exotic cars do not handle real well 
on slippery roads. One of the Dev's died and that created a set back because 
now there are two different corp. factions The other side who cannot dev. 
anything has the signed intent to conduct business letters amounting to 350 
million. We turned down 20 billion because they wanted control so I'm 
exploring this and other situations for possible involvement situations and 
have found some.

The DEv. that died wanted 500 million in signed letters before he would 
launch and figured he would get 100 million at launch. I/we can launch with 
20 million and have 10 million all ready over the last two months  that will 
be tendered by involved situations at launch. Naturally I totally care less 
if anyone believes any of this or not. I blow off the Sci. types. because 
they are only looking for info. Not Business involvement. because I'm not in 
the EDU. Business I'm in the creating of CO's business.

 SCI. types have about zero understanding of that. If I appear to be 
combative it is a reaction to a combative action that I have detected. first. 
I'm sorry people cannot grasp new concepts. They should call then. If they 
wish to. Not attempt weak E mail games. Plus attempt to make me the heavy 
because of there glaring inability's they are covering up witch is what is 
actually going on.

 People will ask operational questions without understanding the concept.  It 
makes common sense to understand a concept first.  It is not taught in 
schools. It has to be learned from experence. Plus schools do not teach it in 
the first place that is a major mistake they comit.  THey will get raked over 
the coals when they attempt that. Then they say i'm being combative. They do 
not like being called on the mat for there glaring blunder.   

Because they do not understand what has been presented. But very few can read 
between the lines what the intent is when combative attitude responses are 
generated. I have BTDT many times. especially with totally in the box  Eng. 
And SCI Types. Who are very vocal for the most Because they see there 
creditability slipping away. They are not stupid just arrogant.   Understand 
without the have basically zero. And they are  not betterr than everyone else 
like the think they are. With them it is all Ego.  With me is only business  
Ego's are totally counter productive  I'm looking forward to possibly 
conducting Busines with you if that is your intent.     Jack Carey     . .    
              .       . .   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 08:42:00 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <43.189536b9.2b8a52fa aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:38:18 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] HyOx group update
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: richard.brekus bmwna.com, carlton.speck@delphiauto.com
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            Dan If the HyOx group was your idea and not GM's.  I commend for 
your efforts to investigate alternatives. But there is one problem and that 
is,   It is  not a viable technology. That would become crystal clear to you 
by making one phone call to someone as far as I know  will speak with you,  
because your a fellow GM Eng. That person is Delphi's Chief Scientist 

He cannot say it publicly but he can tell you that your wasting your time. 
With   HyOx     GM is betting we will not be able to pull it off. with new 
far more advanced technology situations. That is their first mistake. They 
also blew it 20 years ago with the clean burn combustion when they saw it.

  Plus what became Magnequench. Could have been far more advanced. Plus they 
blew it when we had the meetings with them in the fall if 2001. when they 
were steam rolled as they had been previously.  Those blunders were just 
arrogant driven judgments.  Carl is far smarter than the clowns he works for. 
He would not have made those judgments. 

 That GM attitude still perplexes me to no end. I will never be able to 
understand that thinking. Because it makes no sense. Even after dealing with 
them personally for 30 years. But I did learn very valuable lessons from that 
association and they were just do everything the opposite way that GM does . 
So it was a worthwhile experience       

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 11:14:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:09:58 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]   Hardly a marketing comment
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In a message dated 2/23/03 1:20:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
georgemurray1 aol.com writes:


> Thank you for your most erudite answer on the marketing question I asked. My 
> 
> jaw dropped at the comprehensive way in which you explained how marketing 
> works. However, you missed the main point about politeness.
> I'm extremely sorry all your contacts seem to die or fail to complete their 
> 
> work, however I think I can understand why.
> One problem you may be able to help with. The British Government has just 
> withdrawn support from our wind farm and water turbine generator 
> programmes.
> They ran out of wind. 
> If you contact a senior representative of our government I'm sure they 
> could 
> find you a suitable position for you to get the fans turning again. Between 
> 
> you and me, the work is very high up.
> 
>    Reply   George     I have detected a  lack of knowledge of the presented 
> subjective matter  crystal ball driven judgmental  attitude from you  from 
> day one. Wind is obsolete so it is a Moot point. Period.  We have completed 
> work  that will be manuf.  YOU cannot even grasp or imagine THat I can SEE  
>    

   . I'm actually very polite    I said  Please call to find out if your 
interested in a Bus. sense  You did not. I said Give me A 
> No.if there is a Bus. interest    You did not   I only have so many patients 
> with people  in possible busines situations. I have  time for SCI. types  
> ""IF "" they do not have an attitude     I do not have time to play.with 
> jerk off know it alls with attitudes  SIR  

    I need a contact in your Govt. Got one  There is a finders fee in it for 
you   Because CadCam and then Computer 
> stress testing is next then build  the prototype. That works in theoty is a 
> situation that would drive those generators and wind mills 24/7 without 
> wind  as fast as you want    Ponder that one George    it is 2 pm here so 
> it is about 7 pm there 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/23/0=
3 1:20:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, georgemurray1 aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Thank you for your most erudite=
 answer on the marketing question I asked. My <BR>
jaw dropped at the comprehensive way in which you explained how marketing <B=
R>
works. However, you missed the main point about politeness.<BR>
I'm extremely sorry all your contacts seem to die or fail to complete their=20=
<BR>
work, however I think I can understand why.<BR>
One problem you may be able to help with. The British Government has just <B=
R>
withdrawn support from our wind farm and water turbine generator programmes.=
<BR>
They ran out of wind. <BR>
If you contact a senior representative of our government I'm sure they could=
 <BR>
find you a suitable position for you to get the fans turning again. Between=20=
<BR>
you and me, the work is very high up.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; George&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have detecte=
d a&nbsp; lack of knowledge of the presented subjective matter&nbsp; crystal=
 ball driven judgmental&nbsp; attitude from you&nbsp; from day one. Wind is=20=
obsolete so it is a Moot point. Period.&nbsp; We have completed work&nbsp; t=
hat will be manuf.&nbsp; YOU cannot even grasp or imagine THat I can SEE&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCK=
QUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; . I'm actually=20=
very polite&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I said&nbsp; Please call to find out if your i=
nterested in a Bus. sense&nbsp; You did not. I said Give me A </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">No.if there is a Bus. interest&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You did no=
t&nbsp;&nbsp; I only have so many patients with people&nbsp; in possible bus=
ines situations. I have&nbsp; time for SCI. types&nbsp; ""IF "" they do not=20=
have an attitude&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not have time to play.with jer=
k off know it alls with attitudes&nbsp; SIR&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I need a=20=
contact in your Govt. Got one&nbsp; There is a finders fee in it for you&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Because CadCam and then Computer </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">stress testing is next then build&nbsp; the prototype. That=
 works in theoty is a situation that would drive those generators and wind m=
ills 24/7 without wind&nbsp; as fast as you want&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ponder th=
at one George&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it is 2 pm here so it is about 7 pm there <B=
R>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 11:37:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <145.b513f54.2b8a7c17 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:33:43 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] HyOx group update
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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DAN     Personally Tech. wise No..  Why would care about HyOx it is obsolete 
It is a Total Moot point ??  Get over Dan          But our Tech's do   I know 
what I have seen and that was meetings with Delphi   SET up by me That I then 
in the next one Wayne and a ranking City official who went with us   Where 
Delphi   saw situations they did  not know existed.  Nor could they explain   
     And your HyOx does not measure up dan  PERIOD 

  I did not read all those mails What FOR?   Gene Mallove The editor of 
Infite Energy Mag,   A MIT Nuclear Physisist   sent a researcher here  he 
verified in a description. in a mail  and did not realize what he was saying. 
I posted it on Vortex  He was clueless. They  even built one the obsolete 
versions  with Wayne's  instructions and were still clueless. 

VCrepair saw a public demo and later I found out he was there and he declined 
to test and had meters with him. He Will not accept offers to come and check. 
But can run his no investigating mouth.  Karn  is an EE, kreig is an EE  They 
have a great deal to lose if their theories go up in smoke as you do DANNY 
BOY   

  IT IS CALLED CREDITABILITY  as being an expert on a subject.  That means 
everything to your types DAN Your Eng.'s You are paid to know about 
electricity That is your lively hood. Not your hobby. If you cannot do your 
job you get canned. Then maybe you can Eng. some Burgers at Burger King. 
Because that is about all your types will be qualified for. I know you feel 
the knife  DANNY BOY  every time I stick it in.your giant counter productive 
arrogant  GM Eng.  EGO.  Have your HyOx  fer lunch. Because i just had yours. 
    NEXT ENG> PLEASE       

Here it is from KEN from Infinite """""""""'
> 
> 
> What I can say clearly for Wayne's sake is that despite just a visual
> inspection of the garage wiring which was not totally verified, he did
> demonstrate the converter running a 1 HP drill press in idle, a supposed 5
> HP air compressor running at 160 psig, and a 3 phase 2kW arc welder in
> actual use on his welding table; the fluorescent lights in the garage did
> not even flicker, and actually seemed to pulsate brighter at a half cycle
> per second rate.     
_________________________-
  Reply  this is the world that the Phase converter technology creates which 
is all together different that yours  And your math will not explain at all. 
To be correct The Drill Press requires a 2 1/2 and the Air. Com. was powered 
by a 3 HP but requires a 5 HP. In your world.

  What he is saying is not possible in your world  According to your math 
from a 110 V feed. With only a total 9 AMP draw that was all that was 
necessary to accomplish what he described.     Ken also contradicted himself 
by saying his meter reads were inconclusive.

Naturally they would be because they did not conform to what normal readings 
would be. HELLO. Plus he did not realize what he was saying in his 
description it appears but I caught it because of my understanding of the 
totally new process that is occurring. 

Ken Again ""     He then disconnected the converter and ran just a 1kW,
> 110VAC single phase arc welder and the fluorescent lights almost went out  
> when Wayne struck an arc.  

REPLY  this is how your known electrical world functions       CASE CLOSED 
CLAIMS VERIFIED  I'm sorry you 
> cannot explain the new process. You may want to study some Tesla. after you 
> throw away your electrical theory books.  Next Skeptic Please  


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>DAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Personally Tech. wise No..&nbsp; Why would care about <B>HyOx</B> it is o=
bsolete It is a Total Moot point ??&nbsp; Get over Dan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But our Tech's do&nbsp;&nbsp; I know what I=
 have seen and that was meetings with <B>Delphi&nbsp;</B>&nbsp; SET up by me=
 That I then in the next one Wayne and a ranking City official who went with=
 us&nbsp;&nbsp; Where Delphi&nbsp;&nbsp; saw situations they did&nbsp; not k=
now existed.&nbsp; Nor could they explain&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; And your HyOx does not measure up dan&nbsp; <B>PERIOD </B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; I did not read all those mails What FOR?&nbsp;&nbsp; Gene Mallove The=
 editor of Infite Energy Mag,&nbsp;&nbsp; A <B>MIT </B>Nuclear Physisist&nbs=
p;&nbsp; sent a researcher here&nbsp; he verified in a description. in a mai=
l&nbsp; and did not realize what he was saying. I posted it on <B>Vortex</B>=
&nbsp; He was clueless. They&nbsp; even built one the obsolete versions&nbsp=
; with Wayne's&nbsp; instructions and were still clueless. <BR>
<BR>
VCrepair saw a public demo and later I found out he was there and he decline=
d to test and had meters with him. He Will not accept offers to come and che=
ck. But can run his no investigating mouth.&nbsp; Karn&nbsp; is an <B>EE</B>=
, kreig is an <B>EE&nbsp;</B> They have a great deal to lose if their theori=
es go up in smoke as you do <B>DANNY BOY&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; IT IS CALLED <B>CREDITABILITY&nbsp; </B>as being an expert on a subje=
ct.&nbsp; That means everything to your types DAN Your Eng.'s You are paid t=
o know about electricity That is your lively hood. Not your hobby. If you ca=
nnot do your job you get canned. Then maybe you can <B>Eng.</B> some Burgers=
 at Burger King. Because that is about all your types will be qualified for.=
 I know you feel the knife&nbsp; <B>DANNY BOY</B>&nbsp; every time I stick i=
t in.your giant counter productive arrogant&nbsp; <B>GM </B>Eng.&nbsp; <B>EG=
O</B>.&nbsp; Have your HyOx&nbsp; fer lunch. Because i just had yours.&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NEXT ENG&gt; PLEASE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
BR>
<BR>
Here it is from KEN from Infinite """""""""'<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What I can say clearly for Wayn=
e's sake is that despite just a visual<BR>
inspection of the garage wiring which was not totally verified, he did<BR>
demonstrate the converter running a 1 HP drill press in idle, a supposed 5<B=
R>
HP air compressor running at 160 psig, and a 3 phase 2kW arc welder in<BR>
actual use on his welding table; the fluorescent lights in the garage did<BR=
>
not even flicker, and actually seemed to pulsate brighter at a half cycle<BR=
>
per second rate.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
_________________________-<BR>
&nbsp; Reply&nbsp; this is the world that the Phase converter technology cre=
ates which is all together different that yours&nbsp; And your math will not=
 explain at all. To be correct The Drill Press requires a 2 1/2 and the Air.=
 Com. was powered by a 3 HP but requires a 5 HP. In your world.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; What he is saying is not possible in your world&nbsp; According to yo=
ur math from a 110 V feed. With only a total 9 AMP draw that was all that wa=
s necessary to accomplish what he described.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken als=
o contradicted himself by saying his meter reads were inconclusive.<BR>
<BR>
Naturally they would be because they did not conform to what normal readings=
 would be. HELLO. Plus he did not realize what he was saying in his descript=
ion it appears but I caught it because of my understanding of the totally ne=
w process that is occurring. <BR>
<BR>
Ken Again ""&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He then disconnected the converter and=20=
ran just a 1kW,<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">110VAC single phase arc welder=20=
and the fluorescent lights almost went out&nbsp; when Wayne struck an arc.&n=
bsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
REPLY&nbsp; this is how your known electrical world functions&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CASE CLOSED CLAIMS VERIFIED&nbsp; I'm sorry you <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">cannot explain the new process.=
 You may want to study some Tesla. after you throw away your electrical theo=
ry books.&nbsp; Next Skeptic Please&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_145.b513f54.2b8a7c17_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 15:07:23 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:02:12 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <lnji5v4um6c3sfckdealm2l9ijehfk6v31 4ax.com>
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Lights out was half an hour ago, so it's dark as you land on the concrete floor, stripped of your personal possessions, your clothes, and your dignity.
Your head still throbs from the blow you received when they arrested you during the protest march. As you come to your senses, you yell after the guard retreating in the distance, "I want my phone call". Then comes the reply echoing down the hall - "Phone calls are only for citizens". Then it dawns on you. Your loss of dignity is the least of your worries. You have also been stripped of your citizenship.
The country of which you were so proud to be a citizen has rewarded your loyalty by declaring you to be a terrorist. Your future is bleak, very bleak.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/patriot2-hi.pdf

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 16:35:22 2003
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 19:34:39 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Lights out was half an hour ago, so it's dark as you land on the concrete floor, stripped of your personal possessions, your clothes, and your dignity.
>Your head still throbs from the blow you received when they arrested you during the protest march. As you come to your senses, you yell after the guard retreating in the distance, "I want my phone call". Then comes the reply echoing down the hall - "Phone calls are only for citizens". Then it dawns on you. Your loss of dignity is the least of your worries. You have also been stripped of your citizenship.
>The country of which you were so proud to be a citizen has rewarded your loyalty by declaring you to be a terrorist. Your future is bleak, very bleak.
>

Well, it's pretty tame so far compared to WWII.

Look, Donk, you're beginning to be as annoying as Carey with your 
peacenik statements and your political tagline.

This is not the place.

Take it to the proper forum.

Terry

(My best friend's daughter, Jennifer

http://www.massingpr.com/who_we_are.htm

would have died in the WTC had she not had an argument with her 
boyfriend that morning.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 17:25:20 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <1ef.2bd3f86.2b8acd92 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:21:22 EST
Subject: good article in this issue of Scientific American
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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There is a good article on negative energy in this issue of Scientific 
American.
I published a similar article in Infinite Energy.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter5.html">Chapter 5</A>


Frank Znidarsic 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 17:25:27 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:21:51 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] wth on Jack Carey
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In a message dated 2/23/03 4:50:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:


> Id like to know why you havent offered up proof?? One email claims to
> have a working demp then in another you say it hasn't been built yet.. 
> 
>   WE have sold Phase converters   to private situations that did not have 3 
phase power and did not want to spend thousands of dollars to have it brought 
in by the power CO.   or in some cases it was not even available  in there 
area    that will be replaced with production models   when manuf. starts  WE 
are conducting CadCAM   for a new situation  

ARE YOU CLEAR NOW 

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/23/0=
3 4:50:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:=
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Id like to know why you havent=20=
offered up proof?? One email claims to<BR>
have a working demp then in another you say it hasn't been built yet.. <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; WE have sold Phase converters&nbsp;&nbsp; to private sit=
uations that did not have 3 phase power and did not want to spend thousands=20=
of dollars to have it brought in by the power CO.&nbsp;&nbsp; or in some cas=
es it was not even available&nbsp; in there area&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that will=
 be replaced with production models&nbsp;&nbsp; when manuf. starts&nbsp; WE=20=
are conducting CadCAM&nbsp;&nbsp; for a new situation&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
ARE YOU CLEAR NOW </FONT></HTML>

--part1_1e5.2da92c0.2b8acdaf_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 18:02:00 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:17:01 -0500
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Hi All.

Rather than argue with one ( or both ) of you, I present
in true Vortexian fashion experimental data from a recent
"run" here in NYC. Feb 15th. My good friend, the artist
Mary Petruska, reporting.

////////////////////////////
From: Mary Petruska <marypetruska earthlink.net>

Personal Report -

We were already on first Avenue and 64th Street at a friends apartment at
11:00am having cocktails and cake before the rally - about 8 people had
gathered from England, France Alabama, Atlanta and here. Corporate Lawyers
and artists, wimps, basically, who wanted to add to the count but were not
looking for a confrontation.  When we headed out at noon the crowd was
already north of us on First so, we thought we would walk down Second to get
closer.  When we got to Second we were turned away by the police and could
see Second was packed north and south and they were not being allowed to
move.  They let us return toward First and we made our way to York which was
wide open with virtually no police presence - so we were able to get to 51st
and First with no real problems. We were then ³contained² but in a good
spot.

Close to 3:00 one of our friends and Bob and I decided to leave and headed
towards Second to get over to the subways on Lexington. At Second we were
not allowed to go further west (away from the congestion) and we were not
allowed to go back to First - we were herded into another corral where we
were to be ³contained².  Then, all of sudden there were so many police in
riot gear and they were dividing the crowd up and forcing them into the
intersections - it was getting ugly.  We managed to slide thru a barricade
and get onto the sidewalk and into a doorway.  Then, out of - I don¹t know
where - appeared twelve cops on horses who got into this ³formation² and
charged the crowd in the intersection. I saw one horse go down and a lot of
people (my friend got it on tape).  We stayed huddled in the doorway until
they had ³cleared² Second for busses (city busses) who had apparently been
sitting there for hours because it was like a parade of busses...  They then
allowed people to walk south on Second on the side walks for blocks before
we were allowed to cross somewhere to get out.

It was like promptly at 3:00 we were all supposed to evaporate - rally over
- be gone!  But they had no exiting plan in place - all they had done is
plan and over plan ³how to contain² but didn¹t have a clue how to then move
people out....

I don't blanket blame in general - most of the police were just doing their
job and reasonable - some were assholes - probably proportionate to the mix
in society at large.  I think it was more about not having a clear plan to
exit the masses and underestimating the numbers.

BUT, they did employ harsh riot maneuvers when the crowd was peaceful -
Maybe more than bad judgement - maybe a reflection of our new government?
////////////////////

As you can see Robin, she wasn't thrown into The Tombs, but I think
we can all agree that charging a peaceful crowd with police
horses is a little excessive, right Terry?

Still Enduring Freedom,

K.





-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 7:35 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]


Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Lights out was half an hour ago, so it's dark as you land on the concrete
floor, stripped of your personal possessions, your clothes, and your
dignity.
>Your head still throbs from the blow you received when they arrested you
during the protest march. As you come to your senses, you yell after the
guard retreating in the distance, "I want my phone call". Then comes the
reply echoing down the hall - "Phone calls are only for citizens". Then it
dawns on you. Your loss of dignity is the least of your worries. You have
also been stripped of your citizenship.
>The country of which you were so proud to be a citizen has rewarded your
loyalty by declaring you to be a terrorist. Your future is bleak, very
bleak.
>

Well, it's pretty tame so far compared to WWII.

Look, Donk, you're beginning to be as annoying as Carey with your
peacenik statements and your political tagline.

This is not the place.

Take it to the proper forum.

Terry

(My best friend's daughter, Jennifer

http://www.massingpr.com/who_we_are.htm

would have died in the WTC had she not had an argument with her
boyfriend that morning.)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 18:49:20 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <10c.1febb6d7.2b8ae12c aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:45:00 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] HyOx group update
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CC: eric voicenet.com, karn@ka9q.net, .carlton.speck@delphiauto.com
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   IF  KNOW IT arrogant elitist Eng.'s cannot grasp a situation like I 
present. That they should be able to but appears they cannot they cop a 
totally combative attitude that is  as big as there giant counter productive 
Ego's.  Smart Eng. investigate but the arrogant ones that would have their 
ego's crushed if they were not able to explain. Make noting but crystal ball 
driven no investigating arm chair quarterback judgment calls  Because the EDU 
system told them they knew it all BUT if what I present is factual they know 
basically ZERO   

 CASE in point  it appears DANNY BOY and shit or get off the pot what's his 
name in Chicago are totally clueless and are trying to discredit me. The non 
tech. promoter  and creator of the bus side of the new CO  to cover up there 
grossly lacking ENG. abilities,  regarding new Tech. situations they are 
totally ignorant of it appears

  I BTDT several times They have the Tech's phone No's They have my phone No. 
 They have the 50 million dollar tech center NO. BUT THEY as Eric kreig the 
moderator of the Free Energy site only want to play weak E mail games. And 
will not confront a possible situation that may make them appear as total 
fools for swallowing    hook line and sinker what the Edu. system taught 
them.  

They spent a great deal of time and money learning all that possibly now 
worthless theory only based info.  And we all know 99% of the time Eng. have 
giant know it all Ego's that they puff up and out every time they get a 
chance. And the net provides them a venue to do so. Because smart open minded 
 Eng. just ignore them because they are totally closed and narrow minded  And 
there attitude is how dare I question there knowledge 

  Because I'm not one of them the elite ones.  I'm only the Non tech. 
promoter of an advanced new tech situation, DO YOU see a glaring problem in 
our society why we are not solving problems and evolving? Past history has 
proven new inventions did not come from the established Eng. comm 98% of the 
time. OVER AND OVER  

  IT is the dan types that do not investigate new situations that were not 
created by other Eng.'s.  Because his thinking is ONLY his types can create 
new situations like HyOx.  He thinks it is not possible for anyone who does 
not have a degree to able to accomplish feats of the magnitude I'm speaking 
of. or his HyOx  

WELL  all he has to do is call a fellow GM Eng. and he will find out that is 
not the case. It is that simple. He probably all ready has because any half 
wit would.  But it could be the case that action is to complicated for him to 
accomplish. Because he has no known theory based math that can tell him how 
to accomplish that feat.  DAN YOU and shit or get off the pot are my new 
favorite whipping boys I wore out my other two Eric Kreig and PILL PILL Karn 
I skinned them alive.

 And they bored me to no end. So I needed  fresh meat to carve up  and you 
two turkeys are  just came out of the oven  Carl Speck the Chief scientist at 
Delphi  should get a laugh out of this mail at your expence DAN>  Because he 
has been through this like your going through now  

 BUT the big difference is he is a World Class visionary  Who does not have a 
GM arrogant attitude like you. I would employ him in a New York minute   You 
appear as  a piss ant Cube boy at GM type  Who could not even begin to equal 
his vast abilities.   I would not employ you to wash my car. Because you 
would probably find some way to screw that up    When I called him to rattle 
his GM cage a week and half age he was reading one of my.mails. 

HE Also investigated  when he was presented with new evolutionary situations 
that what real class act  Eng. do. THey do not puff out the EGO's because 
they do not have one. THat is why he is where he is at  and you would never 
be there.in that position  And he really likes his new buddy Nicola Tesla. 
YOU owe me big time for that one Carl  AT least buy me lunch       

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 19:01:51 2003
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  Your "reply to:" line should be blank is you want a reply via vortex.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:38:17 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: knagel gis.net
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOENHDHAA.knagel gis.net>



Keith Nagel wrote:

>As you can see Robin, she wasn't thrown into The Tombs, but I think
>we can all agree that charging a peaceful crowd with police
>horses is a little excessive, right Terry?
>

I'd rather be chased by a horse than breathe tear gas.  Of course, you 
must watch where you step.

I presume there was a permit for the march.  Outside the permitted area, 
it is in the public's best interest to control the crowd.  Also, outside 
the permitted time, dispersal is a requirement.

I'm not going to apologize for the behavior of NYC's Finest.  I believe 
their behavior was exemplary considering what their organization has 
been through.

Look, I pooh-poohed Y2K.  And I don't want to sound like an alarmist. 
 But, I don't think Hussein will watch the expiration date on his 
chemistry pass.  There is a clear and present danger to the US, IMO.

Warmest regards,

Terry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 19:36:10 2003
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:35:08 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Terry, of course Hussein is a great danger to US and to the world, as are
several other leaders.  Of course we need to do something.  The issue is
just what that response should be.  Instead of reacting to the situation in
a clever and thoughtful way,  our government has created a no-win situation
out of which will come even greater problems.  When leaders are
incompetent, the people pay.  Now days, the people no longer just sit back
and wait to pay the price.  If we in the US had the ability to engage in a
debate or dialogue with our leaders, perhaps a better approach would have
been formulated.  Instead, an irrational situation has been forced on us by
headstrong people who see the world in black and white terms.  The response
to this situation will also be irrational, because events can no longer be
changed by intelligent discussion and other options are no longer
available.  The Christian Right is about  to see their Biblical predictions
come true, but not in the way they expect.  Once again ignorance and
insanity will rule as they did during WWI and WWII.

Regards, Ed

Terry Blanton wrote:

>   Your "reply to:" line should be blank is you want a reply via vortex.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:38:17 -0500
> From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
> To: knagel gis.net
> References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOENHDHAA.knagel gis.net>
>
> Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> >As you can see Robin, she wasn't thrown into The Tombs, but I think
> >we can all agree that charging a peaceful crowd with police
> >horses is a little excessive, right Terry?
> >
>
> I'd rather be chased by a horse than breathe tear gas.  Of course, you
> must watch where you step.
>
> I presume there was a permit for the march.  Outside the permitted area,
> it is in the public's best interest to control the crowd.  Also, outside
> the permitted time, dispersal is a requirement.
>
> I'm not going to apologize for the behavior of NYC's Finest.  I believe
> their behavior was exemplary considering what their organization has
> been through.
>
> Look, I pooh-poohed Y2K.  And I don't want to sound like an alarmist.
>  But, I don't think Hussein will watch the expiration date on his
> chemistry pass.  There is a clear and present danger to the US, IMO.
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Terry

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 19:51:02 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 22:47:25 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Sterling Allen on Jack Carey
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In a message dated 2/23/03 5:46:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com 
writes:


> Monday, Nov. 11
> 55960 hits as of 11:59 pm MST 
> Technology Team > Confidential Technologies - Claims super efficient 
> rotating transformer, and other Tesla-like advances.  No official 
> website yet.  Avoid JCarey.
> 
>    ASK  Sterling Allen  in Salt Lake  about the conference call I had with 
> him  and his tech. Plus a separate call when he said it appears we have the 
> most advanced tech. situations on the planet.   Because all my calls are 
> recorded for DOC. Purposes. Then again with him and a guy in Calif. then 
> the guy in Calif called me in a separate call   

       I guess they were looking for something they could control.  PLUS HE 
knows Gary Vesperman  an  EE personally who > was here with a world class 
> physicists. AND they were clueless  They are both from Vegas and flew to 
> Chicago and drove her with a  Ph.D. M.E  and did not even bring their 
> measuring meters out of the Mini Van it was that plain to see.   They were 
> bringing meters as far as I know. Because it had been discussed prior to 
> them leaving Vegas. 
>   Thanks      DAN  for allowing me to establish creditability  

    Dan Your apparently a MORON GM ENG.   I just had your lunch again stupid  
you will never learn like shit or get > off the pot what's his name in Chicago 
>   Carl  this guy is one of yours  and he is making a complete fool out of 
> himself  and GM at the same time.  

   It will not  accomplish anything if GM files any more laughable complaints 
 with the state of Mich.  witch is 
> what the state was doing when they called Wayne and was reading my  emails 
> to him  that cry baby major corp  from across the planet had filed  28 of 
> them against me for stealing their identity. 

     Which means I questioned there giant ego's   They could not sue last 
time and cannot sue now. Please  we 
> are a little smarter than that Carl as far as avoiding that from occurring.  
>  He is also supporting HyOx is the Corp supporting it also Carl.?  Is it 
> another one of their cluster you know what's   or is it the process Wayne 
> instructed you how to accomplish ??? 


   FYI  OUR  inside GM Eng. contacts gave us  two of your new GM Cluster you 
know what's  EV platforms to 
> evaluate    Now they are a total not funny joke.  They are ENG. nightmare 
> that probably Dan worked on.  Carl You need to deal with us or at least 
> employ some basically self taught farm boy type Eng.'s that built the Co. 
> in the first place. Carl if you expect to survive you need to dump turkey's 
> like the DAN. He is a total MORON    
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/23/0=
3 5:46:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Monday, Nov. 11<BR>
55960 hits as of 11:59 pm MST <BR>
Technology Team &gt; Confidential Technologies - Claims super efficient <BR>
rotating transformer, and other Tesla-like advances.&nbsp; No official <BR>
website yet.&nbsp; Avoid JCarey.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ASK&nbsp; Sterling Allen&nbsp; in Salt Lake&nbsp; about the con=
ference call I had with him&nbsp; and his tech. Plus a separate call when he=
 said it appears we have the most advanced tech. situations on the planet.&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Because all my calls are recorded for DOC. Purposes. Then again w=
ith him and a guy in Calif. then the guy in Calif called me in a separate ca=
ll&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>=
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess they were looking for something=
 they could control.&nbsp; PLUS HE knows Gary Vesperman&nbsp; an&nbsp; EE pe=
rsonally who <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid=
; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">was here with a wo=
rld class physicists. AND they were clueless&nbsp; They are both from Vegas=20=
and flew to Chicago and drove her with a&nbsp; Ph.D. M.E&nbsp; and did not e=
ven bring their measuring meters out of the Mini Van it was that plain to se=
e.&nbsp;&nbsp; They were bringing meters as far as I know. Because it had be=
en discussed prior to them leaving Vegas. <BR>
&nbsp; Thanks&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DAN&nbsp; for allowing me to est=
ablish creditability&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dan Your apparently a <B>MORON GM ENG.&nbsp;&nbsp; I just=
 had your lunch again stupid&nbsp; you will never learn like shit or get <BL=
OCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">off the pot what's his name in Chi=
cago&nbsp;&nbsp; Carl&nbsp; this guy is one of yours&nbsp; and he is making=20=
a complete fool out of himself&nbsp; and GM at the same time.&nbsp; </FONT><=
FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; It will not&nbsp; accomplish anything if GM files any more l=
aughable complaints&nbsp; with the state of Mich.&nbsp; witch is </FONT><FON=
T  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>what the state was doing when they called Wayne and was=20=
reading my&nbsp; emails to him&nbsp; that cry baby major corp&nbsp; from acr=
oss the planet had filed&nbsp; 28 of them against me for stealing their iden=
tity. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI=
ZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>=
Which means I questioned there giant ego's&nbsp;&nbsp; They could not sue la=
st time and cannot sue now. Please&nbsp; we </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=20=
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>are a little smarter than that Carl as far as avoiding t=
hat from occurring.&nbsp;&nbsp; He is also supporting HyOx is the Corp suppo=
rting it also Carl.?&nbsp; Is it another one of their cluster you know what'=
s&nbsp;&nbsp; or is it the process Wayne instructed you how to accomplish ??=
? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; FYI&nbsp; OUR&nbsp; inside GM Eng. contacts gave us&nbsp; tw=
o of your new GM Cluster you know what's&nbsp; EV platforms to </FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>evaluate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now they are a total not funn=
y joke.&nbsp; They are ENG. nightmare that probably Dan worked on.&nbsp; Car=
l You need to deal with us or at least employ some basically self taught far=
m boy type Eng.'s that built the Co. in the first place. Carl if you expect=20=
to survive you need to dump turkey's like the DAN. He is a total MORON&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_148.b59c253.2b8aefcd_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 20:28:54 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <104.2871fd20.2b8af8dd aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 23:26:05 EST
Subject: Re: Someone investigares but backwards HELLO
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, borderschess@hotmail.com, karn@ka9q.net
CC: eric voicenet.com, bishop@triumf.ca, vcrepair@juno.com,
        rc_glider hotmail.com, jgiglio@nova.umuc.edu
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      THIS man has made an assumption as most of his apparently arrogant know 
it all elitist  types often do,  without so much as calling me to investigate 
with an open mind.   He has made a totally closed narrow minded crystal ball 
driven judgment.  And he is totally incorrect.    I'm attempting to save a 
civilization for those who follow me. By presenting new evolutionary problem 
solving situations and attacking ignorance. What is he doing to cause that to 
happen?  I see zero  

Because they are the only ones that matter for I have a responsibility to 
them and my forefathers. Because they provided me a basically clean safe 
planet. Many of them  paid the ultimate price by sacrificing there lives in 
the only war ever fought against tyranny so that situation could occur  

  Any response Leo?  That makes one lick of common sense.  If not craw back 
in your hole. So people that are attempting to make positive changes occur on 
this planet,  can possibly accomplish those goals because they do not see you 
attempting to accomplish them . 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 22:01:41 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <72.2aa7be16.2b8b0e8a aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 00:58:34 EST
Subject: Urgent request for advice were:dealing with Jack C he is making fools of us   
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: carlton.speck delphiauto.com, eric@voicenet.com, karn@ka9q.net,
        borderschess hotmail.com, opa@aps.org
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       DAN    I cannot believe GM  was ignorant enough to higher you.   But 
considering all the blunders they have made in the last generation it is par 
for the course to employ a cry baby clown like you.    That cannot deal with 
me and is running to another group because you apparently do not have the 
abilities to play in my league.

  After all they did piss away half their  market share in that period of 
time because of their  total  incompetence. If they would have been smart 
enough to deal with Wayne Cochran in the late 70's and early 80's they would 
probably have 60% of the market as they did in the 50's 

 NO those Morons spend millions on a clean burn tech. he showed them the 
beginnings of.   But could not make one phone call any pony up for licensing 
fee's so they would be able to make the next step,  witch they were not able 
to accomplish. Because of their totally piss poor inept Eng. practices  

    I informed you moron we had all ready showed them the next several steps 
in evolution beyond all known propulsion technologies. I EVEN gave you 
Delphi's Chief Scientists direct no to call for verification.  I entered your 
group moron to inform you of that fact. I have had a great deal of experience 
with boxes of rocks like you but you and Shit or get off the pot what's his 
name in Chicago take the cake. Eric I thought you were a box of rocks. but 
you a genius compared to these clowns.     
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Carey has entered the Alternative Fuel Cars group,   
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/alternativefuelvehicles/ and he is 
causing us to appear as total fools. Plus causing quite a distrubance.  
I know that Mr. Carey use to belong to this group and you guys have
experience in dealing with him.

The Alternative Fuel Cars group could  sure use your help in dealing with
him especially since free energy is not our specialty. Plus I'm a GM 
enginerer 
and i should understand what he is speaking about but I do not have a clue.
Because it is to far over my head. 

Does anyone in your group understand the advanced technologies
he has been attempting to explain to us Because none of us can.
And he is calling us morons witch is starting to have adverse effects 
on our ego's. Please help us. Because we cannot compete with 
him on his adavanced level of understanding.  

If any of you in this group have any comments on Mr. Carey that you 
would like share, please post them and I will copy them over.  Mr. 
Eric Kraig, Mr. Carey made the following remark about you as to why 
he left the Free_Energy group, "REPLY Because i made a fool out of 
eric kreg an EE".  I would be willing to post any response you have, 
Mr. Kraig, in response to this comment.

If any of you in this group would like to join the Alternative Fuel 
Cars group, at least long enough to help us deal with Mr. Carey, I 
think averyone in the group would greatly apprieciate it.

Thank You

Dan Berndt




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 22:31:43 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:29:48 EST
Subject: We must follow Tesla's directions. We have no choice 
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        rc_glider hotmail.com, jgiglio@nova.umuc.edu, e.kramer@earthlink.net,
        ted.loder unh.edu, premierww@qwest.net, sterlingda@greaterthings.com,
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        Shawn  I hope you can grasp this SIR 
We have to follow Tesla's directions because it appears,  he was correct in 
his assumptions and use the atom (sub atomic particles) not converted them. . 
Because that process could possibly open up a Pandora's box, witch may cause 
a rift in time.  If that occurred we may not be able to close it. If that 
happened and we could not close it. You do not want to know what the results 
would be believe me.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 22:41:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <bc.349636ac.2b8b182c aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:39:40 EST
Subject: Re: Someone investigares but backwards HELLO
To: karn ka9q.net
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, borderschess@hotmail.com, eric@voicenet.com,
        bishop triumf.ca, vcrepair@juno.com, rc_glider@hotmail.com,
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    Somebody  find someone that can help  this poor lost boy. I guess I was a 
far to sever on him when I adjusted his attitude. I guess there is a fine 
line between Moron and total Moron and gentlemen it appears he crossed it. 
Ted is still attempting to find the definition to the word Moron. It appears 
from his last phone call a few days ago.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 23 23:36:51 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:35:52 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: dealing with Jack C
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Fellow Vortexians, and Ed Storms in particular.

I'm sorry to offend you by subjecting you to Jack's rants, but this 
gave me a good laugh, and it is a proven fact that laughter is good 
for you.

Jack I would love to test your machine with a load, I am willing to 
use an inductive lighting load, if you don't like the water heater 
test. I have no money to invest, this offer is purely to satisfy my 
curiousity.

The post began

>        DAN    I cannot believe GM  was ignorant enough to higher you.   But
>

The Alternative Fuel Cars group could  sure use your help in dealing with
him especially since free energy is not our specialty. Plus I'm a GM
enginerer and i should understand what he is speaking about but I do 
not have a clue.
Because it is to far over my head.

If this guy is an engineer, he gives new meaning to the phrase, 
Yesterday I couldn't eben spell enginerer, and now I are one.

The post continues, Mr. Carey made the following remark about you as 
to why he left the Free_Energy group, "REPLY Because i made a fool 
out oferic kreg an EE".

Eric has a $5000 prize which he is offering to anyone who can 
demonstrate a free running, free energy machine to him. AFAIK, Eric 
still has that money.

The post continues. And he is calling us morons witch is starting to 
have adverse effects on our ego's. Please help us. Because we cannot 
compete with
him on his adavanced level of understanding.


Dan Berndt uses the same grammatical mistakes that Jack does, which 
makes me wonder who wrote this piece of nonsense. Obviously someone 
with a large ego that needs to be feed.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 00:21:33 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b8.3a3c6b97.2b8b2f4f aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 03:18:23 EST
Subject: Re: We must follow Tesla's directions. We have no choice
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n a message dated 2/24/03 2:16:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, bishop triumf.ca 
writes:
      Shawn      Moray   Had a piece of the giant puzzle  But now it will not 
be needed it appears  It appears a form of what was accomplished  in 1712 
will dominate. 
I
 Plus  there is a new entire different form of magnetic's  just the opposite 
of known magnetic's    It is natural  not Eletro   Remember what i said about 
Maxwell's theory split the two   Dow Corning saw an operational Star Trec 
level process in 1990/91  The motor  can be  restarted for 50,000  for 
controlled demo purposes. 

Because exposure to them during operational situations will cause DNA damage. 
 It will cost 20 million and require 3 years to refine  But with the 1712 
situation a possibly probably will not happen either.  Carl  Speck 
Delphi's/GM  Chief Scientist saw the materials  dynamics with was the power 
source   So hard ball time is almost here with is the dawn of a new age.      
  Welcome to the 23 rd century 

> JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
> 
> >        Shawn  I hope you can grasp this SIR 
> >We have to follow Tesla's directions because it appears,  he was correct 
> in 
> >his assumptions and use the atom (sub atomic particles) not converted 
> them.
> >
> 
> In the early 1900's, dr. T. Henry moray of salt lake city produced his 
> first elementary device that delivered measureable electrical power, and 
> he continued to use lorentz's little trick, and discard far, far more em 
> energy flow pouring from the vacuum, speaks for itself.  My years of 
> work in the universe freely and continuously replenish its associated em 
> fields and potentials.
> 
> >Because that process could possibly open up a Pandora's box, witch may 
> cause 
> >a rift in time.
> >
> 
> The machine's development has been no evolutionary development of 
> tolerance to, or adaptation to, that process in the center, clustered 
> around by a proprietary process which he never fully revealed.  
> Nevertheless, materials scientists competent in self-oscillation in 
> magnetic materials can produce such an example magnet, which remains 
> self-kinetic at somewhat higher frequency than the work one gets out in 
> the middle while the like virtual charges repelled further away.
> 
> >If that occurred we may not be able to close it. If that 
> >happened and we could not close it. You do not want to know what the 
> results 
> >would be believe me.     
> >
> 
> I don't know what you're doing?   Do you know what the principles of 
> such a permissible continuously decreasing further toward negative 
> entropy in the system (and therefore in local spacetime) changes, then 
> this characteristic in general relativity is not done in present 
> electrical power on a permanent magnet so the second law has always been 
> an oxymoron anyway, implicitly assuming that its contradiction has first 
> occurred to give you that overview, so you can form ideas and 
> relationships to that source charge.
> 
> Reply  Personally no  But i know who does. 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>n a message dated 2/24/03=
 2:16:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, bishop triumf.ca writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Shawn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Moray&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Had a piece of the giant puzzle&nbsp; But now it will not be needed=
 it appears&nbsp; It appears a form of what was accomplished&nbsp; in 1712 w=
ill dominate. <BR>
I<BR>
 Plus&nbsp; there is a new entire different form of magnetic's&nbsp; just th=
e opposite of known magnetic's&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is natural&nbsp; not Ele=
tro&nbsp;&nbsp; Remember what i said about Maxwell's theory split the two&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Dow Corning saw an operational Star Trec level process in 1990/91&=
nbsp; The motor&nbsp; can be&nbsp; restarted for 50,000&nbsp; for controlled=
 demo purposes. <BR>
<BR>
Because exposure to them during operational situations will cause DNA damage=
.&nbsp; It will cost 20 million and require 3 years to refine&nbsp; But with=
 the 1712 situation a possibly probably will not happen either.&nbsp; Carl&n=
bsp; Speck Delphi's/GM&nbsp; Chief Scientist saw the materials&nbsp; dynamic=
s with was the power source&nbsp;&nbsp; So hard ball time is almost here wit=
h is the dawn of a new age.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Welcom=
e to the 23 rd century <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Shawn&nbsp; I hope you can gr=
asp this SIR <BR>
&gt;We have to follow Tesla's directions because it appears,&nbsp; he was co=
rrect in <BR>
&gt;his assumptions and use the atom (sub atomic particles) not converted th=
em.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
In the early 1900's, dr. T. Henry moray of salt lake city produced his <BR>
first elementary device that delivered measureable electrical power, and <BR=
>
he continued to use lorentz's little trick, and discard far, far more em <BR=
>
energy flow pouring from the vacuum, speaks for itself.&nbsp; My years of <B=
R>
work in the universe freely and continuously replenish its associated em <BR=
>
fields and potentials.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;Because that process could possibly open up a Pandora's box, witch may c=
ause <BR>
&gt;a rift in time.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
The machine's development has been no evolutionary development of <BR>
tolerance to, or adaptation to, that process in the center, clustered <BR>
around by a proprietary process which he never fully revealed.&nbsp; <BR>
Nevertheless, materials scientists competent in self-oscillation in <BR>
magnetic materials can produce such an example magnet, which remains <BR>
self-kinetic at somewhat higher frequency than the work one gets out in <BR>
the middle while the like virtual charges repelled further away.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;If that occurred we may not be able to close it. If that <BR>
&gt;happened and we could not close it. You do not want to know what the res=
ults <BR>
&gt;would be believe me.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
I don't know what you're doing?&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you know what the principles=20=
of <BR>
such a permissible continuously decreasing further toward negative <BR>
entropy in the system (and therefore in local spacetime) changes, then <BR>
this characteristic in general relativity is not done in present <BR>
electrical power on a permanent magnet so the second law has always been <BR=
>
an oxymoron anyway, implicitly assuming that its contradiction has first <BR=
>
occurred to give you that overview, so you can form ideas and <BR>
relationships to that source charge.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Reply&nbsp; Personally no&nbsp; But i know who does. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 01:06:10 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <29.39b53f74.2b8b3a13 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:04:19 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Re: Do we want to kick Carey out?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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        opa aps.org, eric@voicenet.com
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        I have explained the concepts to him in  several different ways,  
until I was  blue in the face to see if could grasp them. But alas he is an 
in the box stone wall thinking cube boy EE,  that is totally consumed with 
his theories. He claims be to a Vice President of a major Corp. But I think 
he is attempting to puff up his giant Ego by making that claim.

 I have requested proof  and I urge to also on several occasions but he has 
not provided it. Because he stated he reported to the chief scientist witch 
caused me take note. Because that situation is generally just the opposite 
situation in most CO.  He never has called to investigate further than his no 
investigating arrogant counter productive giant Ego, crystal ball driven 
assumptions.

Witch is a trait that is the dominate situation among his types, that think 
only what they know are the facts.  Just ask him and he will tell you so.  He 
as many others has a great deal to lose if his theory based house of cards 
collapses and he knows it. He may be totally ignorant of the conceptual and 
operational dynamics of new evolutionary situations but he is not stupid. 

 And he is very combative as you see because of that fact. The Smart ones in 
his profession investigate. But not the fools like him. Because he swallowed 
hook line and sinker, when the EDU. system told him he knew all there was to 
know.  PILL PILL karn is one of my favorite whipping boys. But now that he 
has been skinned alive.  So  Dan and shit or get off the pot what's his name 
in Chicago That are fresh meat so to speak have replaced him. Next EE please

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 01:38:23 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:35:53 EST
Subject: Re: dealing with Jack C
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In a message dated 2/24/03 2:37:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Fellow Vortexians, and Ed Storms in particular.
> 
> I'm sorry to offend you by subjecting you to Jack's rants, but this 
> gave me a good laugh, and it is a proven fact that laughter is good 
> for you.
>    REPLY unless your an EE or a Physicst and  this new Tech. is real  then 
> the last laugh is on you and I will be the one laughing  

Jack I would love to test your machine with a load, I am willing to 
> 
> use an inductive lighting load, if you don't like the water heater 
> test. I have no money to invest, this offer is purely to satisfy my 
> curiousity.
>     REPLY    TOM   HELLO WAKE UP   What does this unit do?  It converts 
> single to 3 phase correct?  That does what?  Operates machinery correct?  
> If you have any common sense it would tell you that the way to test it is 
> as it was intended for  and that is operating  3 phase machinery. But you 
> appear you cannot grasp that.  WHY? Or doesn't make sense. ???????????  If 
not then justify to me WHY it does not????  Is Ed Storms one of the people 
one of the people i will have the last laugh on  

> The post began
> 
> >        DAN    I cannot believe GM  was ignorant enough to higher you.   
> But
> >
> 
> The Alternative Fuel Cars group could  sure use your help in dealing with
> him especially since free energy is not our specialty. Plus I'm a GM
> enginerer and i should understand what he is speaking about but I do 
> not have a clue.
> Because it is to far over my head.
> 
> If this guy is an engineer, he gives new meaning to the phrase, 
> Yesterday I couldn't eben spell enginerer, and now I are one.
> 
> The post continues, Mr. Carey made the following remark about you as 
> to why he left the Free_Energy group, "REPLY Because i made a fool 
> out oferic kreg an EE".
> 
> Eric has a $5000 prize which he is offering to anyone who can 
> demonstrate a free running, free energy machine to him. AFAIK, Eric 
> still has that money.
> 
> The post continues. And he is calling us morons witch is starting to 
> have adverse effects on our ego's. Please help us. Because we cannot 
> compete with
> him on his adavanced level of understanding.
> 
> 
> Dan Berndt uses the same grammatical mistakes that Jack does, which 
> makes me wonder who wrote this piece of nonsense. Obviously someone 
> with a large ego that needs to be feed.
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/24/0=
3 2:37:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Fellow Vortexians, and Ed Storm=
s in particular.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry to offend you by subjecting you to Jack's rants, but this <BR>
gave me a good laugh, and it is a proven fact that laughter is good <BR>
for you.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY unless your an EE or a Physicst and&nbsp; this new Tech.=20=
is real&nbsp; then the last laugh is on you and I will be the one laughing&n=
bsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZ=
E=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Jack I would love to test yo=
ur machine with a load, I am willing to </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" styl=
e=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=
 LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
use an inductive lighting load, if you don't like the water heater <BR>
test. I have no money to invest, this offer is purely to satisfy my <BR>
curiousity.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TOM&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO WAKE UP&nbs=
p;&nbsp; What does this unit do?&nbsp; It converts single to 3 phase correct=
?&nbsp; That does what?&nbsp; Operates machinery correct?&nbsp; If you have=20=
any common sense it would tell you that the way to test it is as it was inte=
nded for&nbsp; and that is operating&nbsp; 3 phase machinery. But you appear=
 you cannot grasp that.&nbsp; WHY? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"=
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>Or doesn't make sense. ???????????&nbsp; If not then jus=
tify to me WHY it does not????&nbsp; Is Ed Storms one of the people one of t=
he people i will have the last laugh on&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The post began<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I canno=
t believe GM&nbsp; was ignorant enough to higher you.&nbsp;&nbsp; But<BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
The Alternative Fuel Cars group could&nbsp; sure use your help in dealing wi=
th<BR>
him especially since free energy is not our specialty. Plus I'm a GM<BR>
enginerer and i should understand what he is speaking about but I do <BR>
not have a clue.<BR>
Because it is to far over my head.<BR>
<BR>
If this guy is an engineer, he gives new meaning to the phrase, <BR>
Yesterday I couldn't eben spell enginerer, and now I are one.<BR>
<BR>
The post continues, Mr. Carey made the following remark about you as <BR>
to why he left the Free_Energy group, "REPLY Because i made a fool <BR>
out oferic kreg an EE".<BR>
<BR>
Eric has a $5000 prize which he is offering to anyone who can <BR>
demonstrate a free running, free energy machine to him. AFAIK, Eric <BR>
still has that money.<BR>
<BR>
The post continues. And he is calling us morons witch is starting to <BR>
have adverse effects on our ego's. Please help us. Because we cannot <BR>
compete with<BR>
him on his adavanced level of understanding.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dan Berndt uses the same grammatical mistakes that Jack does, which <BR>
makes me wonder who wrote this piece of nonsense. Obviously someone <BR>
with a large ego that needs to be feed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 01:56:41 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d6.37d17a3.2b8b45d9 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:54:33 EST
Subject: Re: dealing with Jack C   i forgot a major point 
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        Eric pays 10,000 to see 1500 watts for 24 hours    That unit was 
being constructed before Wayne's death. The 50 million dollar tech center saw 
it when they saw the phase conversion operational.    It should not be a 
problem finishing it and it should deliver about 4000 watts for four days. 
self contained 

 Put that one in you pipe and smoke it because I will shove it down stone 
wall conversion of energy thinkers throat       Along with phase conversion 
that is the absolute end of the in the box SCI. Comm.  Then I can create a 
new one that is invention based thinking   Ed storms if he is a in the box 
type people are the ones that created that attitude of mine     Grammar that  
  next   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 05:36:27 2003
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Message-ID: <3E5A1F7A.5030606 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:34:50 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>When leaders are
>incompetent . . .
>

That, of course, is your opinion.

And, I presume the previous president was competent, IYO.

-T

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:32:22 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: knagel gis.net
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEENJDHAA.knagel gis.net>



Keith Nagel wrote:

>Hi Terry.
>
>Well, you see, it's like this.
>
>A few months ago, the head of the CIA, George Tenet, presented to
>the President his analysis of the threat to a major
>city due to SH. He felt that the highest probability
>of attack on a US city was in the instance of a
>pre-emptive strike by the US. 
>

Ah!  So, if we don't attack, he'll never attack.

I see your way of thinking.

-T




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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re; Shell Hydrogen
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It looks like Shell Oil has taken the Hydrogen plunge.  :-)

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=hydrogen-en

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 07:24:44 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: We must follow Tesla's directions. We have no choice
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                Shawn   In regard to the scientific aspects of what your 
saying your speaking to wrong person. I'm a non tech. type I create the 
business sides of  CO's to go with the tech. sides.   If you wish to speak 
with the Tesla and Einstein level tech's   you can call them at 810 701 9432  
 or my No. is 810 618 9234 for concept explanations 

 They can converse with you after determining your level of understanding, so 
you can possibly grasp what there saying.  It would be counter productive for 
them to speak to you on levels possibly far above your level of 
understanding.

 Because I as they are attempting to accomplish the creation of vast new far 
reaching. Basically science fiction level Quantum leap Power conversion, 
propulsion, medical, computer PLUS vast far reaching new cost effective, 
problem solving environmental technology situations.  That are the bases for 
an entire new age that currently is light years beyond our civilization's 
understanding.

  It is not known as of yet. But your understandings may be above theirs who 
knows.?  But none have been for 30 years.  Even Nobel level minds have never 
been a challenge to them. They are easily qualified to sit in Sir Isaac 
Newton's chair after Hawking who they admire leaves.

After all between there combined abilities they have basically wrote new 
evolutionary physics. That should provide our civilization with solutions, 
that have eluded for them for century's.  But there could always be a first 
time that your understanding could be more profound than theirs.

 Because no one knows it all. And they as I are the first ones to admit that. 
we know nothing,  please be so kind to teach us.  It may not appear as so but 
actually we are very humble people. But sometimes I'm forced to use  razor 
edge responses, because of ignorant of new evolutionary situations combative 
attitude responses.  That I encounter when I'm attempting to present new 
concepts. That many feel will upset many peoples apple carts. So to speak 

Witch is an incorrect assumption. Because they are totally positive for all 
they will effect. Because they may cause our civilization to evolve witch 
will be necessary, if we expects to survive as one. Because we are at a 
crossroads in history and have to chose the correct paths to take and we do 
not have a great deal of time to make those choices              

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 08:04:58 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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The technology for producing Hydrogen from hot water treatment (reforming) of the
cellulose in biomass feedstocks, (cellulose is a glucose polymer) has been around for
over 3 decades.

Cellulose Reaction:

C6H10-O5 (162 lbs) + 7 H2O (126 lbs) ---> 6 CO2 (264 lbs) + 12 H2  (24 lbs).

Glucose Reaction:

C6H12-O6 (188 lbs) + 6 H20 (108 lbs) ---> 6 CO2 (264 lbs) + 12 H2  (24 lbs)

Chevron Research Labs had a patent on this reaction ca. 1970.
High starch vegetables, such as turnips and potatoes do very well in this process.

James Dumesic at U. of  Wiscosin -Madison is homing in on a low energy conversion
process.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020826/020826-5.html

James Dumesic and co-workers at the University of Wisconsin in Madison heated a
glucose solution extracted from plant tissues to around 200 °C under pressure. They
passed it over a catalyst comprised of tiny platinum particles scattered throughout a
matrix of porous aluminium oxide. This process breaks the glucose down into hydrogen,
carbon dioxide and small amounts of methane.

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 08:07:55 2003
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >When leaders are
> >incompetent . . .
> >
>
> That, of course, is your opinion.

What we know about everything is an opinion.  You are saying
that you have a different opinion.   Unfortunately, unlike
science, the accuracy of the opinion about this subject can
have serious and deadly consequences.  Eventually, the
consequences of the present approach will be obvious to
everyone, but then it will be too late.

>
>
> And, I presume the previous president was competent, IYO.

No, he was not competent, but he did not start a worldwide
conflict we can not win.  Sometimes the best plan is to do
nothing except have sex with your colleagues and then lie
through your teeth.  No one dies, no money is wasted, and
great entertainment is provided.  Many people hoped Bush
would  be just as irrelevant.  But no, he has to piss off
the whole world while helping  powerful corporations
increase their influence here at home.  In his spare time,
he allows his lesser minions to undo freedoms that have been
put in place over the centuries.  Events test leaders.  Good
leaders resist the obvious, simple-minded path and resist
appealing to the hysteria of the masses. Instead, they
defend that which is valuable and try to do no harm.  The
Bush administration has failed this test.  But then, that is
only my opinion.

Ed

>
>
> -T

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 08:38:22 2003
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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Jack Carey has invaded Alternative Fuel Cars ...
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        There is a crucial point that I would like to bring to your 
attention, if I may be allowed to. That apparently is grossly overlook by 
many    That is How in the hell can you make judgments without extensive 
investigation. There is no way I know how that is possible   But It seems 
everyone and there brother has the ability to do so.  

 I do not have those abilities may I ask where do I obtain them? Because I 
all ready checked with the edu. system and it appears that is where those 
closed and narrow minded attitudes came from. That he displayed in his mail. 
Because I could save a great deal of time investigating situations. 

If I could make instant crystal ball driven no investigating judgments as he 
does.  The man made a total complete fool out of himself and was to ignorant 
or arrogant to grasp what he did.  The same his types always do. They do 
themselves They need no help from me.  

Is our edu System that piss poor and pathetic people because it certainly 
appears that way, to me? That conclusion only takes simple common sense to 
determine. It is not rocket science. But he did give me a complement.  He did 
say I was the cream of the crop. That must be so because he is telling us he 
knows it all.  At least he indicates he does. CORRECT?????/.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 08:42:40 2003
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Edmund Storms wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>When leaders are
>>>incompetent . . .
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>That, of course, is your opinion.
>>    
>>
>
>What we know about everything is an opinion.  You are saying
>that you have a different opinion.   Unfortunately, unlike
>science, the accuracy of the opinion about this subject can
>have serious and deadly consequences.  Eventually, the
>consequences of the present approach will be obvious to
>everyone, but then it will be too late.
>

Well, the consequences of appeasement are inevitably deadly.

I hope it does not come to war.  Blix stated that the build up of forces 
has made his diplomacy easier.

Ironically, it is the voices of appeasement which have made war more likely.

But, if it comes to war, I think many will be surprised.

-T

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:57:10 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: knagel gis.net
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMENODHAA.knagel gis.net>



Keith Nagel wrote:

>Yes Terry.
>
>It's a policy that has worked for about 10 years,
>and sanctions have been pretty effective in
>reducing the ability of SH to operate. 
>

I disagree.  Hussein wanted for nothing while his people suffered.  One 
day of his extravagance could have fed an Iraqi family for a year. 
 Money for the oil for food program has wound up in the coffers of the 
war industry in Germany and others.  SH's biological and chemical 
weapons advanced and all he needed was fissionable material to complete 
his triad.

>You see, there is this idea called MAD, I'm sure
>you're familiar with it. It kept the soviets
>in check until their demise. 
>

MAD only works with people who are sane.

>So tell me, during gulf war one, why didn't
>SH use his chem/bio weapons on us or Israel?
>

This is very clear.  He and his minions were warned that the use of 
those weapons would have resulted in the deployment and use of tactical 
nuclear weapons in retaliation.  Indeed, this might yet come to pass.

>Also, explain why SH is suddenly a threat now???
>

He has always been a threat but he had no delivery system to attack the 
US.  Thanks to Al Queda that might no longer be true.

>So, by your way of thinking, in order to prevent
>an attack by SH, we should attack him, thus creating
>the conditions for the maximum chance of us being
>attacked. This is how the CIA see's it, anyway.
>Perhaps you have better intelligence information???
>

No, I do not say that we attack.  I say that we force him to comply with 
the cease fire agreement from when we kicked his ass last time.  

You might wish to study the tactics of Saladin, born 799 years before 
Hussein in Tikrit, Saddam's birthplace.  There are many amazing 
coincidences.

-T



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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Amazing photo and story
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>From the FWIW department:=20

I hope a good answer arrives in the next few weeks to the questions =
raised by this story, and that all of the possible causes to the =
Columbia disaster don't get swept under the bureaucratic rug,  just =
because we know that a chunk of foam insulation also hit the wing.=20

>From the SF Chiron, Feb 5
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/MN192153.DT=
L
I have written to the reporter, Sabin Russell asking for an updated =
story.=20

We know what the streak was not - it could not have been a rocket or =
missile-but perhaps it was it a "sprite" or a blue jet,=20
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951111.html
or a camera artifact like a time exposure streak. If so, I hope a =
well-considered explanation comes out soon from NASA, before kooky =
conspiracy theorists of the dumb-and-dumber variety incorporate it into =
the next UFO myth.  Or from the other p.o.v., this story is way too =
important to get a cursory brush-off. It would be easy for NASA to lump =
it together with the now debunked TWA 800 "conspiracy theory" as being =
either fraudulent from the start or an optical illusion. But this one =
was captured on film.

There is far firmer evidence for some kind of physical anomaly here, but =
certainly nothing devious caused by directly humans. Even if it is some =
kind of "sprite" then maybe the real story is that sprites are fairly =
common and can bring down a spacecraft, or at least an already =
vulnerable craft.

That would actually be a very big story. I personally have seen =
impressive sprites (essentially "reverse" lightning) -believe me, you =
will never forget seeing one from an airplane, and if they were a =
potential safety concern, that would be nice to know.=20

Not that there's much that could be done to avoid one.

Jones 
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>From the FWIW department: </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I hope a good answer arrives in the next few weeks to the questions =
raised=20
by this story, and that all of the possible causes to the&nbsp;Columbia=20
disaster&nbsp;don't get swept under the bureaucratic rug, &nbsp;just =
because we=20
know that&nbsp;a chunk of foam insulation also hit the wing. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From the SF Chiron, Feb 5</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/MN1=
92153.DTL">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/=
MN192153.DTL</A></DIV>
<DIV>I have written to the reporter, Sabin Russell asking for an updated =
story.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We know what the streak was not - it could not have been a rocket =
or=20
missile-but perhaps it was&nbsp;it a "sprite" or a blue jet, </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951111.html">http://antwrp.gsf=
c.nasa.gov/apod/ap951111.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>or a camera artifact like a time exposure streak. If so, I hope a=20
well-considered explanation comes out soon from NASA,&nbsp;before kooky=20
conspiracy theorists of the dumb-and-dumber variety incorporate it into =
the=20
next&nbsp;UFO myth.&nbsp; Or from the other p.o.v., this story is way =
too=20
important to get a cursory brush-off. It would be easy for NASA to lump =
it=20
together with the now debunked TWA 800 "conspiracy theory" as =
being&nbsp;either=20
fraudulent from the start or an optical illusion. But this one was =
captured on=20
film.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There is far firmer evidence for some kind of physical anomaly =
here, but=20
certainly nothing devious caused by directly humans. Even if it is some =
kind of=20
"sprite" then maybe the real story is that sprites are fairly common and =
can=20
bring down a spacecraft, or at least an already vulnerable craft.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That would actually be a very big story. I personally have seen =
impressive=20
sprites (essentially "reverse" lightning)&nbsp;-believe me, you will =
never=20
forget seeing one from an airplane,&nbsp;and if they were a potential =
safety=20
concern, that would be nice to know. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Not that there's much that could be done to avoid one.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:01:51 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Terry Blanton wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Edmund Storms wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>When leaders are
> >>>incompetent . . .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>That, of course, is your opinion.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >What we know about everything is an opinion.  You are saying
> >that you have a different opinion.   Unfortunately, unlike
> >science, the accuracy of the opinion about this subject can
> >have serious and deadly consequences.  Eventually, the
> >consequences of the present approach will be obvious to
> >everyone, but then it will be too late.
> >
>
> Well, the consequences of appeasement are inevitably deadly.

I suggest a path exists between appeasement and all out war.  Of course such a
path requires skill and insight.  The easy path involves bring in the Marines
and bombing the Hell out of a country.

>
>
> I hope it does not come to war.  Blix stated that the build up of forces
> has made his diplomacy easier.

This is true.  However, the pressure could have been built up gradually with an
exit strategy in place, like putting the assets into Afghanistan if they were
not needed in Iraq.  A gradual build up would have taken longer but would have
sufficiently isolated SH so that he could do little harm.  Meanwhile, the other
nations, as well as the US, would have had time to understand the situation.
However, Bush would not  look like a man of action and would not have achieved
the ego satisfaction for himself and other pissed off people.

>
>
> Ironically, it is the voices of appeasement which have made war more likely.

I do not think this is true.  I do not believe any revaluation of his weapons
would satisfy Bush et al.  The issue is not what SH does or does not do.  The
issue is placing that part of the world under our control in order to protect
the oil and Israel. The events of 9/11 gave the cover for something that was
bound to happen sooner or later.  The only defense would have been finding
other sources of energy or working very hard to reduce our need for oil,
something the power structure in the US will not do.  The present  suggestions
are superficial and represent no change in the basic problem.

>
>
> But, if it comes to war, I think many will be surprised.

I agree, but which of us will have the surprise?  If the War goes well and the
rosy predictions come true, Bush will use his new found power to gut many of
the laws protecting us from the excesses of industry, the Christian Right will
be given power to decide social issues, and Bush et al. will dominate world
affairs.  Oil will  become even more important to industry, with the obvious
bad consequences.  On the other hand, if the War goes badly, ----- well you can
easily image the consequences.

Ed

>
>
> -T

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adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
version:2.1
email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 11:14:56 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <15b.1c574752.2b8bc75d aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:07:09 EST
Subject: Re: Amazing photo and story
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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     Who is to say ?   But you cannot deny the fact there are more planets in 
the universe,  than there are grains of sand on the beach.  We have to be 
totally ignorant if we think we are the only life forms in the uviverse.. 
That is Stone Age thinking and a total small minded arrogant attitude if we 
think are.     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 12:07:14 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b9.2edb01fe.2b8bd3e2 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:00:34 EST
Subject:  THe problem with main stream theoy only thinking  
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In a message dated 2/24/03 2:09:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:


> What we know about everything is an opinion.  You are saying
> > >that you have a different opinion.   Unfortunately, unlike
> > >science, the accuracy of the opinion about this subject can
> > >have serious and deadly consequences.  Eventually, the
> > >consequences of the present approach will be obvious to
> > >everyone, but then it will be too late.
> > >       

     Theory     It is only one side of the coin.  There is a totally 
different side that main stream will not consider Why> Because they may not 
have a theory for that totally opposite side.  Since theory is the only thing 
they have How do you solve the problem if you want to understand the other 
side you investigate is how.   Can someone improve the grammar add to it if 
you wish   so i can put it on plack. ?

       


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/24/0=
3 2:09:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What we know about everything i=
s an opinion.&nbsp; You are saying<BR>
&gt; &gt;that you have a different opinion.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unfortunately, unlik=
e<BR>
&gt; &gt;science, the accuracy of the opinion about this subject can<BR>
&gt; &gt;have serious and deadly consequences.&nbsp; Eventually, the<BR>
&gt; &gt;consequences of the present approach will be obvious to<BR>
&gt; &gt;everyone, but then it will be too late.<BR>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The=
ory&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is only one side of the coin.&nbsp; There is=20=
a totally different side that main stream will not consider Why&gt; Because=20=
they may not have a theory for that totally opposite side.&nbsp; Since theor=
y is the only thing they have How do you solve the problem if you want to un=
derstand the other side you investigate is how.&nbsp;&nbsp; Can someone impr=
ove the grammar add to it if you wish&nbsp;&nbsp; so i can put it on plack.=20=
?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <003701c2dc24$a57c10e0$0a016ea8 cpq>
Subject: Re: Amazing photo and story
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:05:00 -0600
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  Jones Beene wrote;

  "From the SF Chiron, Feb 5
  =
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/MN192153.DT=
L
  I have written to the reporter, Sabin Russell asking for an updated =
story. "

  "We know what the streak was not - it could not have been a rocket or =
missile-but perhaps it was it a "sprite" or a blue jet,"=20

  Try holding a shop blower air stream against a glowing splint, Jones, =
and see how much "blue smoke" you create.

  Those 34 ply rubber and plastic tires would burn and smoke like coal =
in a forge when hit by a small jet of hot oxygen-rich high temperature =
air.

  If each tire, 44 inches in diameter by 16 inches wide ~10 inches deep, =
pressurized to 340 psig (347psia at 200,000 ft.) ~ 10 cubic feet,  =
released that air into the wheel well, that has to be at least 128 cubic =
feet, with a door that would have to be 32 square feet, the sudden =
pressure on the door would be about 25 psi, or
  about 55 tons!

  Regards,

  Frederick



  http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951111.html
  or a camera artifact like a time exposure streak. If so, I hope a =
well-considered explanation comes out soon from NASA, before kooky =
conspiracy theorists of the dumb-and-dumber variety incorporate it into =
the next UFO myth.=20
  =20
  Jones=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; COLOR: =
#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; =
MARGIN-TOP: 25px
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Jones Beene wrote;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>"From the SF Chiron, Feb 5</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/MN1=
92153.DTL">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2003/02/05/=
MN192153.DTL</A></DIV>
  <DIV>I have written to the reporter, Sabin Russell asking for an =
updated=20
  story. "</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>"We know what the streak was not - it could not have been a =
rocket or=20
  missile-but perhaps it was&nbsp;it a "sprite" or a blue jet," </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Try holding a shop blower air stream against a glowing splint, =
Jones, and=20
  see how much "blue smoke" you create.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Those 34 ply rubber and plastic tires would burn and smoke like =
coal in a=20
  forge when hit by a small jet of hot oxygen-rich high temperature =
air.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>If&nbsp;each tire, 44 inches in diameter by 16 inches wide ~10 =
inches=20
  deep, pressurized to 340 psig (347psia at 200,000 ft.) ~ 10 cubic =
feet, =20
  released that air into the wheel well, that has to be at least 128 =
cubic feet,=20
  with a door that would have to be 32 square feet, the sudden pressure =
on the=20
  door would be about 25 psi, or</DIV>
  <DIV>about 55 tons!</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Regards,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Frederick</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951111.html">http://antwrp.gsf=
c.nasa.gov/apod/ap951111.html</A></DIV>
  <DIV>or a camera artifact like a time exposure streak. If so, I hope a =

  well-considered explanation comes out soon from NASA,&nbsp;before =
kooky=20
  conspiracy theorists of the dumb-and-dumber variety incorporate it =
into the=20
  next&nbsp;UFO myth.&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Jones&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:18:44 EST
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and to...
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com,
        senatorlott lott.senate.gov, prj@mail.msen.com, aelewis@provide.net,
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In a message dated 2/18/2003 9:21:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

> >A REALY BIG METAL maple seed.  And
> >unlike the comparative phone pole they are not 30 to 40 feet long they
> >are 300 to 400 feet long and are made of much harder materials.

In Wired Magazine, around 1997, there was an article on a company that 
designed advanced Blimps to be used to replace satellite communications in 
outer space due to the danger in star wars warfare in outer space, by placing 
the Blimps over cities to act as satellites.   Blimps could also be used to 
carry giant wind mills on them, so that they can be placed above the city, 
and move around out of trouble.  The blimps can be a combination of wind 
mills to generate energy, dish communication towers, ionic air cleaners, and 
sound or high frequency Tesla protective force-fields dome generators for any 
city, so that satellites in outer space are no longer needed.   Blimps can be 
made out of super strong Kevlar to be durable, and can run all year long 
above a city. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/18/2003 9:21:54 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;A REALY BIG METAL maple see=
d.&nbsp; And<BR>
&gt;unlike the comparative phone pole they are not 30 to 40 feet long they<B=
R>
&gt;are 300 to 400 feet long and are made of much harder materials.</BLOCKQU=
OTE><BR>
<BR>
In Wired Magazine, around 1997, there was an article on a company that desig=
ned advanced Blimps to be used to replace satellite communications in outer=20=
space due to the danger in star wars warfare in outer space, by placing the=20=
Blimps over cities to act as satellites.&nbsp;&nbsp; Blimps could also be us=
ed to carry giant wind mills on them, so that they can be placed above the c=
ity, and move around out of trouble.&nbsp; The blimps can be a combination o=
f wind mills to generate energy, dish communication towers, ionic air cleane=
rs, and sound or high frequency Tesla protective force-fields dome generator=
s for any city, so that satellites in outer space are no longer needed.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Blimps can be made out of super strong Kevlar to be durable, and can=
 run all year long above a city. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3E598AB2.2020203 rtpatlanta.com> <3E5984AD.D72FC265@ix.netcom.com> <3E5A1F7A.5030606@rtpatlanta.com> <3E5A34C6.86384F5D@ix.netcom.com> <3E5A4A1C.30306@rtpatlanta.com> <3E5A5D78.8BA9713A@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:40:33 -0500
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Dr. Storms,

You said:

> However, Bush would not  look like a man of action and would not have
achieved
> the ego satisfaction for himself and other pissed off people.

This sort of fatuous nonsense is beneath you--you undercut your credibility
on everything else
you do and say by spouting it.  It is every bit as fatuous as it would be if
I told people 9-11 happened
because Bill Clinton was more intent on oval office hummers than Hummers for
the army.

Now read what you said here:

> If the War goes well and the
> rosy predictions come true, Bush will use his new found power to gut many
of
> the laws protecting us from the excesses of industry, the Christian Right
will
> be given power to decide social issues, and Bush et al. will dominate
world
> affairs.

Policy differences are one thing, Edmund, but this is cloud cuckoo-land
stuff.  CF suffers enough from it's unjustified association with lunatic
fringe science--it cannot survive an additional association with left fringe
(or right fringe either, for that matter) political paranoia.

Kooistra


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 12:56:36 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <1c9.59eb693.2b8bdf4f aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:49:19 EST
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and to...
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In message dated 2/24/2003 3:44:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ConexTom aol.com 
writes:

> Blimps could also be used to carry giant wind mills on them

Blimbs cost $99.99 at technoscout that can be run remote control from 300 
feet away. 

http://www.technoscout.com/general/product/product.asp?product=172&
Prod_Name=Navy_Airship/UFO_Blimp&site=85855

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In message dated 2/24/2003 3:44:18 PM Eastern Standard=
 Time, ConexTom aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Blimps could also be used to ca=
rry giant wind mills on them</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" sty=
le=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial=
" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Blimbs cost $99.99 at technoscout that can be run remote control from 300 fe=
et away. <BR>
<BR>
http://www.technoscout.com/general/product/product.asp?product=3D172&amp;Pro=
d_Name=3DNavy_Airship/UFO_Blimp&amp;site=3D85855<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 13:11:56 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <3e.2c6ab32d.2b8be1f6 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:00:38 EST
Subject: What GM was told to cause there Hydrogen propulsion to function 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: carlton.speck delphiauto.com, hermance@ttc-usa.com, fuchs@ttc-usa.com,
        richard.brekus bmwna.com, aleshan@ford.com, pford@ford.com,
        jcaste22 ford.com, ddoherty@kettering.edu, droach@mcc.edu,
        Browar57 aol.com
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            I presented  new forms of propulsion that do not exist. Plus The 
Delphi/GM Corp  was instructed how to make their hydrogen process function 
for free in the fall of 2001.   When I set up meetings with them. When they 
were showed advanced situations they did not know existed.  They were told to 
pull the fuel not push it as they do now.  That is the way it  was in the old 
days with fuel pumps that were mounted up by your engine and is how they 
performed.

 They pulled the gas from the tank away from the walls of the lines coming 
from the tank.  When you are pushing it as they are now your creating a back 
pressure situation, because the fuel is being pushed against the walls of the 
lines. Until the engine calls for it to be delivered.  Witch means the old 
way was the correct way to feed fuel to an engine.

 Plus far simpler because now you have a real cluster you know what elaborate 
Eng. nightmare. That is installed in the gas tank that delivers the fuel. 
That is typical GM totally backwards Engineering thinking, make it 
complicated when you had it correct in the first place.  The saying is ""If 
it is not broke  do not fix it ""   HELLO GM  Get your heads out of your know 
what   Now you others ones at Ford, Toyota and BMW this mail is going to   
Send me a check because I just gave you a major solution.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 13:34:03 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:23:43 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Amazing photo and story
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Fred,

"Those 34 ply rubber and plastic tires would burn and smoke like coal in =
a forge when hit by a small jet of hot oxygen-rich high temperature =
air."

Good point. It could have been a streamer from ignited rubber =
tires...but are the tires themselves pressurized with air? I would think =
it would be something more inert, like CO2 maybe?

Jones
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Fred,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Those 34 ply rubber and plastic tires would burn and smoke like =
coal in a=20
forge when hit by a small jet of hot oxygen-rich high temperature =
air."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Good point. It could have been a streamer from ignited rubber =
tires...but=20
are the tires themselves pressurized with air? I would think it would be =

something more inert, like&nbsp;CO2 maybe?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 14:06:14 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:05:21 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
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Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote:

> Dr. Storms,
>
> You said:
>
> > However, Bush would not  look like a man of action and would not have
> achieved
> > the ego satisfaction for himself and other pissed off people.
>
> This sort of fatuous nonsense is beneath you--you undercut your credibility
> on everything else
> you do and say by spouting it.  It is every bit as fatuous as it would be if
> I told people 9-11 happened
> because Bill Clinton was more intent on oval office hummers than Hummers for
> the army.

I'm sorry to disappoint you by these remarks, Jeff, but we as a country and
individually are being placed in a dangerous position by our leaders.  This
opinion is not based on my political attitude, but on events happening in the
real world.  Granted, my bitterness may cause me to insult Bush's motives
because it is hard for me to understand why a leader would behave in a way that
would allow his motives to be so easily misunderstood by so many people.  Who
knows, we all might be wrong about the motives because we are confused by being
too liberal or too put off by his style.  If this is the case, I apologize.

>
>
> Now read what you said here:
>
> > If the War goes well and the
> > rosy predictions come true, Bush will use his new found power to gut many
> of
> > the laws protecting us from the excesses of industry, the Christian Right
> will
> > be given power to decide social issues, and Bush et al. will dominate
> world
> > affairs.
>
> Policy differences are one thing, Edmund, but this is cloud cuckoo-land
> stuff.  CF suffers enough from it's unjustified association with lunatic
> fringe science--it cannot survive an additional association with left fringe
> (or right fringe either, for that matter) political paranoia.

You are right, a danger always exists when raising an issue that people might
find disagreeable.  It is easy to conclude that a person who believes  the
government is going down the wrong road can not be trusted to describe nature
correctly.  For all I know, Bush et al. might stop their efforts to apply their
stated agenda once they win the War.  Of course, a large number of people
welcome the changes they have promised, so this is not paranoia. It is just a
simple description of what many people wanted to see happen when they voted.
But then, maybe we all should go back to trying to understand nature and leave
the fate of the world in other hands, especially because we can have no effect
on the outcome.

Ed

>
>
> Kooistra

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 14:17:25 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:06:06 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Updated H2 figures
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Here are some recently updated figures on the comparative economics of =
hydrogen-fueled transport, plus a total off-the-grid solution that =
should appeal to many.

At the 2003 Detroit Auto Show, Ford and Toyota showed off Hydrogen =
prototypes. The Toyota is based on a fuel-cell powered Highlander. =
Ford's Model U is powered by a converted version of the 2.3 liter =
production IC engine.=20

Contrast these with the 1000 hp Cadillac Sixteen monster, the =
Rolls-Royce Phantom, the Hummer, and Ferrari Enzo - These caught most of =
the media attention. Bugatti=92s new motor, comprised of two eight =
cylinder banks, puts out 1001hp at 6000rpm. They just had to make it one =
hp more than the Caddy. These monstrosities may be beautiful to behold, =
but at the same time, are arguably  morally repugnant and ecologically =
disgusting because of the self-indulgent message that they are sending =
at this critical time of oil shortage: plus, they just add another loud =
voice to the petro-war fever.

In the case of the Toyota, which is reportedly a little underpowered, it =
could go into production in two years, and it would reportedly require =
about 3 kg H2 to drive 200 miles, or 250 miles with a larger battery =
backup for capturing braking energy (kind of like the present Prius =
hybrid). Contrast that with 12.5 gal gasoline to drive 250 miles at 20 =
miles /gal. Check out the Toyota, undergoing testing at UC Davis at:   =
http://www-dateline.ucdavis.edu/120602/dl_fuel-cell.html

The Ford IC hydrogen engine, with 2 stage intercooled turbo! has  a =
thermal efficiency of 38 percent, which is at least 25 percent better =
than gasoline engines, but still would require about 8 kg of hydrogen =
for 250 miles in a hybridized vehicle. But the Ford is not underpowered =
and could go into production much sooner, almost immediately with the =
proper incentive.

The big question marks remaining: vehicle cost and hydrogen storage. =
There are several good storage options, hydrides and chemical-based, =
that are safer than high pressure tanks, the default option which should =
NOT be allowed because of the risk, but the major problem with the =
hydrides is a mess of overlapping patents and cost.=20

Next, realize that it takes 152kwh to generate 3 kg H2 at current =
efficiency (updated figures supplied by Argonne National Laboratory from =
an actual home setup) 152kwh  $0.06/kwh=3D $9.00 ...or 8 kg=3D $24.00  =
IF done at off-peak hours when the utility was forced to sell power at =
this fair price, 6 cents, but only if used after midnight and before 6 =
am - for any home owner who installed a small electrolyzer, which could =
be placed in the garage for a slow and safe night-time refill. (hydrogen =
sensor alarms are available for safety).

12.5 gal of gasoline   $2.00/gal =3D $ 25.00


Conclusion: H2 from home electrolysis is competitive with gasoline now - =
if we allow and promote the home production of hydrogen at off-peak =
hours, force off-peak rates and subsidize the set-up. In other words, =
all it takes for us to get firmly started in the "hydrogen age" this =
year or next with the Ford Model U and Home-Hydrogen is political =
will-power.=20

Once the H2 economy is underway for a few years, the government can back =
out and let market forces take over.

But It takes major will-power at the start: to encourage Ford to get a =
vehicle into expedited production at reasonable cost by either tax =
incentive and/or market guarantee. The free market can't work fast =
enough, because the supply/demand equation is not in place and it would =
take years for it to be in place without intervention -the same applies =
to the makers of small electrolyzers, the safety devices, and to the =
utilities. But it makes a lot of sense to get a project going =
immediately somewhere, even if the technology is a little under-ripe, =
especially if a location needs it for other reasons, like in LA or =
Houston which are plagued by filthy air much of the year.=20

There is a wild card that would make H2 even more enticing, at even =
lower cost but it is based on natural gas and is a non-renewable interim =
solution. Honda has invested some major bucks to develop home-based =
hybrid FC generators which can produce H2 fuel so that drivers don't =
have to fill up at H2 stations, which are nonexistent anyway. Honda is =
teaming up with a New York firm, Plug Power, for a total home-based =
hydrogen station that uses natural gas to provide it ALL: heat, hot =
water and electricity to the home, taking the home off-the-grid if =
necessary or desirable (but not off the pipeline) while also producing =
hydrogen for a vehicle.=20

Mark Sperry, Plug Power vice president, said: "We think this concept has =
the ability to accelerate public acceptance significantly by putting =
*hydrogen at the point of need* - instead of building an elaborate =
infrastructure." Why make electricity or hydrogen from natural gas =
somewhere else and send it hundreds of miles, when a home unit is just =
as efficient (actually slightly more efficient), plus when sited at the =
house, the waste heat is usable and, at the same time, hydrogen can be =
stripped off (reformed) from the natural gas when needed for the =
automobile. This solution is ideal for the northern states where the =
heating bill is large anyway and most homes have a gas connection.

Question: How soon will it take for these new H2 supply possibilities to =
dawn on the policy makers - and give them the needed political =
will-power to get things started?

Answer: on the twelfth...

...of never. And why? The first response from the petro-PACs will be: =
Oh, my god!! we can=92t ever let the consumer make hydrogen at home, or =
get off the grid in large numbers. It is just too dangerous and =
destabilizing, yada, yada, yada...

Translation: If and when we, the oil conglomerates, are forced to =
proceed into the long-resisted hydrogen economy, it MUST be structured =
so that we, the oil companies, control at least the total distribution =
infrastructure... They assert unabashedly "We are the traditional =
purveyors of transportation fuel and you will not exclude us from the =
supply chain" ( at least not by transferring our tax incentives to =
someone else)

Their voice, on this point, is being heard and appreciated at the =
highest levels.=20

The oil companies still receive huge multi-billion tax write-offs in the =
form of the depletion allowance. Ask yourself what could be done if this =
incentive were switched in its entirety to promote the home-hydrogen =
alternative... if our politicians had the will-power to stand up against =
big oil.=20

Ha... laugh till you cry...

Jones

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Here are some recently updated figures on the comparative economics =
of=20
hydrogen-fueled transport, plus a total off-the-grid solution that =
should appeal=20
to many.</P>
<P>At the 2003 Detroit Auto Show, Ford and Toyota showed off Hydrogen=20
prototypes. The Toyota is based on a fuel-cell powered Highlander. =
Ford's Model=20
U is powered by a converted version of the 2.3 liter production IC =
engine. </P>
<P>Contrast these with the 1000 hp Cadillac Sixteen monster, the =
Rolls-Royce=20
Phantom, the Hummer, and Ferrari Enzo - These caught most of the media=20
attention. Bugatti=92s new motor, comprised of two eight cylinder banks, =
puts out=20
1001hp at 6000rpm. They just had to make it one hp more than the Caddy. =
These=20
monstrosities may be beautiful to behold, but at the same time,&nbsp;are =

arguably &nbsp;morally repugnant and ecologically disgusting because of =
the=20
self-indulgent message that they are sending at this critical time of =
oil=20
shortage: plus, they just add another loud voice to the petro-war =
fever.</P>
<P>In the case of the Toyota, which is reportedly a little underpowered, =
it=20
could go into production in&nbsp;two years, and it would reportedly =
require=20
about 3 kg H2 to drive 200 miles, or 250 miles with a larger battery =
backup for=20
capturing braking energy (kind of like the present Prius hybrid). =
Contrast that=20
with 12.5 gal gasoline to drive 250 miles at 20 miles /gal. Check out =
the=20
Toyota, undergoing testing at UC Davis at:&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www-dateline.ucdavis.edu/120602/dl_fuel-cell.html">http://=
www-dateline.ucdavis.edu/120602/dl_fuel-cell.html</A></P>
<P>The Ford IC hydrogen&nbsp;engine, with 2 stage intercooled =
turbo!&nbsp;has=20
&nbsp;a thermal efficiency of 38 percent, which is at least 25 percent =
better=20
than&nbsp;gasoline engines, but still would require about&nbsp;8 kg of =
hydrogen=20
for 250 miles in a hybridized vehicle. But the Ford is not underpowered =
and=20
could go into production much sooner, almost immediately with the proper =

incentive.</P>
<P>The big question marks remaining: vehicle cost and hydrogen storage. =
There=20
are several good storage options, hydrides and chemical-based,&nbsp;that =
are=20
safer than high pressure tanks, the default option which should NOT be =
allowed=20
because of the risk, but the major problem with the hydrides is a mess =
of=20
overlapping patents and cost. </P>
<P>Next, realize that it takes 152kwh to generate 3 kg H2 at current =
efficiency=20
(updated figures supplied by Argonne National Laboratory from an actual =
home=20
setup) 152kwh  $0.06/kwh=3D $9.00 ...or 8 kg=3D $24.00 &nbsp;IF done at =
off-peak=20
hours when the utility was forced to sell power at this fair price, 6 =
cents, but=20
only if used after midnight and before 6 am - for any home owner who =
installed a=20
small electrolyzer, which could be placed in the garage for a slow and =
safe=20
night-time refill. (hydrogen sensor alarms are available for =
safety).</P>
<P>12.5 gal of gasoline   $2.00/gal =3D $ 25.00</P>
<P></P>
<P>Conclusion: H2 from home electrolysis is competitive with gasoline =
now&nbsp;-=20
if we allow and promote the home production of hydrogen at off-peak =
hours, force=20
off-peak rates and subsidize the set-up. In other words, all it takes =
for us to=20
get firmly started in the "hydrogen age" this year or next&nbsp;with the =
Ford=20
Model U and Home-Hydrogen is political will-power. </P>
<P>Once the H2 economy is underway for a few years, the government can =
back out=20
and let market forces take over.</P>
<P>But It takes major will-power at the start: to encourage Ford to get =
a=20
vehicle into expedited production at reasonable cost by either tax =
incentive=20
and/or market guarantee. The free market can't work fast enough, because =
the=20
supply/demand equation is not in place&nbsp;and it would take years for =
it to be=20
in place without intervention -the same applies to the makers of small=20
electrolyzers, the safety devices,&nbsp;and to the utilities. But it =
makes a lot=20
of sense to get a project going immediately somewhere, even if the =
technology is=20
a little under-ripe, especially if a location needs it for other =
reasons, like=20
in LA or Houston which are plagued by filthy air much of the year. </P>
<P>There is a wild card that would make H2 even more enticing, at even =
lower=20
cost but it is based on natural gas and is a non-renewable&nbsp;interim=20
solution. Honda&nbsp;has invested some major bucks&nbsp;to develop =
home-based=20
hybrid FC generators which can produce H2 fuel so that drivers don't =
have to=20
fill up at H2 stations, which are nonexistent anyway. Honda is teaming =
up with a=20
New York firm, Plug Power,&nbsp;for a total home-based hydrogen station =
that=20
uses natural gas to provide it ALL: heat, hot water and electricity to =
the home,=20
taking the home&nbsp;off-the-grid if necessary or desirable (but not off =
the=20
pipeline) while also producing hydrogen for a vehicle. </P>
<P>Mark Sperry, Plug Power vice president, said: "We think this concept =
has the=20
ability to accelerate public acceptance significantly by putting =
*hydrogen at=20
the point of need* - instead of building an =
elaborate&nbsp;infrastructure." Why=20
make electricity or hydrogen from natural gas somewhere else and send it =

hundreds of miles, when a home unit is just as efficient (actually =
slightly more=20
efficient), plus&nbsp;when sited at the house, the waste heat is usable =
and, at=20
the same time, hydrogen can be stripped off (reformed) from the natural =
gas when=20
needed for the automobile. This solution is ideal for the northern =
states where=20
the heating bill is large anyway and most homes have a gas =
connection.</P>
<P>Question: How soon will it take for these new H2 supply possibilities =
to dawn=20
on the policy makers - and give them the needed political will-power to =
get=20
things started?</P>
<P>Answer: on the twelfth...</P>
<P>...of never. And why? The first response from the petro-PACs will be: =
Oh, my=20
god!! we can=92t ever let the consumer make hydrogen at home, or get off =
the grid=20
in large numbers. It is just too dangerous and destabilizing, yada, =
yada,=20
yada...</P>
<P>Translation: If and when we, the oil conglomerates, are forced to =
proceed=20
into the long-resisted hydrogen economy, it MUST be structured so that =
we, the=20
oil companies, control at least the total distribution infrastructure... =
They=20
assert unabashedly "We are the traditional purveyors of transportation =
fuel and=20
you will not exclude us from the supply chain" ( at least not by =
transferring=20
our tax incentives to someone else)</P>
<P>Their voice, on this point, is being heard and appreciated at the =
highest=20
levels. </P>
<P>The oil companies still receive huge multi-billion tax write-offs in =
the form=20
of the depletion allowance. Ask yourself what could be done if this =
incentive=20
were switched in its entirety to promote the home-hydrogen =
alternative... if our=20
politicians had the will-power to stand up against big oil. </P>
<P>Ha... laugh till you cry...</P>
<P>Jones</P></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] SOMETHING to consider
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   Question  is the Geo your only car?  Because if it is say you have a grand 
mother in NY and she dies and you have to drive the Geo.     How do you plan 
on getting there if you convert it ???

  People What is  Dan's  agenda all about??/ He  is mounting a smear campaing 
for a reason what is it is all about ?   My guess is 99.99999999% of you  
have not thought of that . He is A GM Eng. One phone call  to the chief 
Scientist of Delphi/GM a fellow engineer and he knows i'm Real. Do I need to 
post Delphi's Chief Scientist mail to me I thougt I did. Saying he did not 
understand what he was showed. 

Plus DAN  cannot understand any of the Tech. situiations I have presented 
.that I can see  Witch if he cannot  and that is his job he gets paid to know 
about the situations I present.  There goes his creditabiloity down the drain 
  OPEN your Eyes Look past your nose.    AsK him  Confront him  otherwise he 
will attempt to direct you as he is now. To his thinking>     Forwarded 
Message: -----------------
Forwarded Message: 
Subj:   From the Chief Scientist of the Delphi/GM Corp.     
Date:   2/3/03 12:57:09 PM Eastern Standard Time    
From:   <A HREF="mailto:JCarey9622">JCarey9622</A>  
To: <A HREF="mailto:jim.lewis mail.house.gov">jim.lewis@mail.house.gov</A>    
CC: <A HREF="mailto:ted.loder unh.edu">ted.loder@unh.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:pathfinder@mindspring.com">pathfinder@mindspring.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:e.kramer@earthlink.net">e.kramer@earthlink.net</A>, <A HREF="mailto:ddoherty@kettering.edu">
ddoherty kettering.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:tcrampto@mcc.edu">tcrampto@mcc.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:droach@mcc.edu">droach@mcc.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:wade.roush@technologyreview.com">
wade.roush technologyreview.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:director@faraday.ru">director@faraday.ru</A>, <A HREF="mailto:gbca94920">gbca94920</A>, <A HREF="mailto:thoren70@hotmail.com">
thoren70 hotmail.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:sterlingda@greaterthings.com">sterlingda@greaterthings.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:gnicholas@flint.org">gnicholas@flint.org</A>, <A HREF="mailto:john.boerger@cbcf-net.com">
john.boerger cbcf-net.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:allan_clapp@yahoo.com">allan_clapp@yahoo.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:tmquiring@ucdavis.edu">tmquiring@ucdavis.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:fischer@ocr.mit.edu">
fischer ocr.mit.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:ws21@cornell.edu">ws21@cornell.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:geford@ucdavis.edu">geford@ucdavis.edu</A>, <A HREF="mailto:adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch">
adolf.schneider datacomm.ch</A>, <A HREF="mailto:mg@ecosustainable.com.au">mg@ecosustainable.com.au</A>, <A HREF="mailto:editpress@wiredmag.com">editpress@wiredmag.com</A>
, <A HREF="mailto:pberardelli upi.com">pberardelli@upi.com</A>, <A HREF="mailto:TrusteeOne">TrusteeOne</A>   
    


   SIR   I have the heading of the attached mail in a file. In the fall of 
2001 we had two meetings with him at his world HQ Tech center.  Alex Thomas 
the director of economy and community Dev. for the city of Flint attended one 
of them with us. DR> Carl Speck  is a Ph.D. MIT trained PHY. and Electrical 
engineer who is  a visionary but was totally clueless in regard to what he 
was shown.

  When he was instructed how to make his obsolete to us hydrogen propulsion 
function for free. He said why didn't I think of that. I used his mail to 
gain creditability across the planet. That caused 28 complaints to be  filed 
with the state of MI by Major Multi national Corp.'s from across the planet 
accusing me of identify theft. Because they thought I was a corp. officer and 
could have sued. I was not for just for that reason. 

The State was laughing when they called the one late DEV. and was reading my 
E mails to him.  It seems I went to far and questioned their giant Ego's and 
they came unglued and went crying to the state. Big Corp.'s saw his 
technologies operational up to 20 years ago and knew they were situations 
light years beyond any science explanation. 

NOW that he was making moves to Manu. because the timing was finally right. 
They reacted to the extent they did because they knew they could not compete 
in the market place with any of them. There has to be reasons for the 
reactions they had. If Delphi's Chief Scienist cannot grasp the Tech. 
dynamics  Who Can?? 

The answer is basically no one the planet. All that matters is technologies  
function as advertised.  Which is all main stream science has the ability to 
say. Unless they are instructed on how to figure out the Tech. dynamics. And 
that is something they will have to figure out for themselves. WE wish them 
good luck because they will need it.  

.   Welcome to the 23 RD century. Where the air is pure and the water is 
clean. As it once was. When this was a majestic pristine beautiful planet. 

Jack,

The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various
technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries & Clearing.  I
have not been able to establish a phone number for her.  I have only been
able to get an address.  It is:

Technologies Inquiries & Clearing
Delphi Technologies, Inc.
Delphi Automotive Systems
PO Box 5
Troy, MI 48099-0005

When we talked about further discusions, I indicated that these people would
expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.  

In our last discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not
understand how it could work.  I still don't, but I wish you your best in
pursuing it

Carl



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Question&nbs=
p; is the Geo your only car?&nbsp; Because if it is say you have a grand mot=
her in NY and she dies and you have to drive the Geo.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; How do you plan on getting there if you convert it ???<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; People What is&nbsp; Dan's&nbsp; agenda all about??/ He&nbsp; is moun=
ting a smear campaing for a reason what is it is all about ?&nbsp;&nbsp; My=20=
guess is 99.99999999% of you&nbsp; have not thought of that . He is A GM Eng=
. One phone call&nbsp; to the chief Scientist of Delphi/GM a fellow engineer=
 and he knows i'm Real. Do I need to post Delphi's Chief Scientist mail to m=
e I thougt I did. Saying he did not understand what he was showed. <BR>
<BR>
Plus DAN&nbsp; cannot understand any of the Tech. situiations I have present=
ed .that I can see&nbsp; Witch if he cannot&nbsp; and that is his job he get=
s paid to know about the situations I present.&nbsp; There goes his creditab=
iloity down the drain&nbsp;&nbsp; OPEN your Eyes Look past your nose.&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; AsK him&nbsp; Confront him&nbsp; otherwise he will attempt to di=
rect you as he is now. To his thinking&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Forwarded=
 Message: -----------------<BR>
Forwarded Message: <BR>
Subj:   <B>From the Chief Scientist of the Delphi/GM Corp.&nbsp; </B>   <BR>
Date:   2/3/03 12:57:09 PM Eastern Standard Time    <BR>
From:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:JCarey9622">JCarey9622</A>  <BR>
To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:jim.lewis mail.house.gov">jim.lewis@mail.house.gov</A>=
    <BR>
CC: <A HREF=3D"mailto:ted.loder unh.edu">ted.loder@unh.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"m=
ailto:pathfinder mindspring.com">pathfinder@mindspring.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"m=
ailto:e.kramer earthlink.net">e.kramer@earthlink.net</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:=
ddoherty kettering.edu">ddoherty@kettering.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:tcramp=
to mcc.edu">tcrampto@mcc.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:droach@mcc.edu">droach@m=
cc.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:wade.roush technologyreview.com">wade.roush@te=
chnologyreview.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:director faraday.ru">director@fara=
day.ru</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:gbca94920">gbca94920</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:th=
oren70 hotmail.com">thoren70@hotmail.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:sterlingda@g=
reaterthings.com">sterlingda greaterthings.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:gnicho=
las flint.org">gnicholas@flint.org</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:john.boerger@cbcf-=
net.com">john.boerger cbcf-net.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:allan_clapp@yahoo.=
com">allan_clapp yahoo.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:tmquiring@ucdavis.edu">tmq=
uiring ucdavis.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:fischer@ocr.mit.edu">fischer@ocr.m=
it.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:ws21 cornell.edu">ws21@cornell.edu</A>, <A HRE=
F=3D"mailto:geford ucdavis.edu">geford@ucdavis.edu</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:ad=
olf.schneider datacomm.ch">adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailt=
o:mg ecosustainable.com.au">mg@ecosustainable.com.au</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:=
editpress wiredmag.com">editpress@wiredmag.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:pberar=
delli upi.com">pberardelli@upi.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:TrusteeOne">Truste=
eOne</A>   <BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; SIR&nbsp;&nbsp; I have the heading of the attached mail in a fi=
le. In the fall of 2001 we had two meetings with him at his world HQ Tech ce=
nter.&nbsp; Alex Thomas the director of economy and community Dev. for the c=
ity of Flint attended one of them with us. DR&gt; Carl Speck&nbsp; is a Ph.D=
. MIT trained PHY. and Electrical engineer who is&nbsp; a visionary but was=20=
totally clueless in regard to what he was shown.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; When he was instructed how to make his obsolete to us hydrogen propul=
sion function for free. He said why didn't I think of that. I used his mail=20=
to gain creditability across the planet. That caused 28 complaints to be&nbs=
p; filed with the state of MI by Major Multi national Corp.'s from across th=
e planet accusing me of identify theft. Because they thought I was a corp. o=
fficer and could have sued. I was not for just for that reason. <BR>
<BR>
The State was laughing when they called the one late DEV. and was reading my=
 E mails to him.&nbsp; It seems I went to far and questioned their giant Ego=
's and they came unglued and went crying to the state. Big Corp.'s saw his t=
echnologies operational up to 20 years ago and knew they were situations lig=
ht years beyond any science explanation. <BR>
<BR>
NOW that he was making moves to Manu. because the timing was finally right.=20=
They reacted to the extent they did because they knew they could not compete=
 in the market place with any of them. There has to be reasons for the react=
ions they had. If Delphi's Chief Scienist cannot grasp the Tech. dynamics&nb=
sp; Who Can?? <BR>
<BR>
The answer is basically no one the planet. All that matters is technologies&=
nbsp; function as advertised.&nbsp; Which is all main stream science has the=
 ability to say. Unless they are instructed on how to figure out the Tech. d=
ynamics. And that is something they will have to figure out for themselves.=20=
WE wish them good luck because they will need it.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
.&nbsp;&nbsp; Welcome to the 23 RD century. Where the air is pure and the wa=
ter is clean. As it once was. When this was a majestic pristine beautiful pl=
anet. <BR>
<BR>
Jack,<BR>
<BR>
The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various<BR>
technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries &amp; Clearing.=
&nbsp; I<BR>
have not been able to establish a phone number for her.&nbsp; I have only be=
en<BR>
able to get an address.&nbsp; It is:<BR>
<BR>
Technologies Inquiries &amp; Clearing<BR>
Delphi Technologies, Inc.<BR>
Delphi Automotive Systems<BR>
PO Box 5<BR>
Troy, MI 48099-0005<BR>
<BR>
When we talked about further discusions, I indicated that these people would=
<BR>
expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In our last discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not<BR>
understand how it could work.&nbsp; I still don't, but I wish you your best=20=
in<BR>
pursuing it<BR>
<BR>
Carl<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 14:39:18 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:33:12 EST
Subject: What kind of a DR is Ed Storms Can he explain  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, storms2@ix.netcom.com
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        tHe new power conversion technologies I have presented that colleges 
have seen operational and prove the first new electrical theory in 100 years. 
FYI ed nobel level minds have no clues   Because they have no math to help 
them. Unless you understand Tesla in side and out   You may not have clue one 
either.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 14:41:43 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:37:33 -0500
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Subject: Re: Updated H2 figures
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Jones Beene wrote:

>The Ford IC hydrogen engine, with 2 stage intercooled turbo! has  a 
>thermal efficiency of 38 percent, which is at least 25 percent better than 
>gasoline engines . . .

25% of what? "Percents" are defined in different ways, but I cannot figure 
how this works out to be 25%. A typical late model ICE is 20% efficient, I 
think, so this would have 18% more Carnot efficient. Or, you might say this 
is 52% more efficient than today's cars.


>The big question marks remaining: vehicle cost and hydrogen storage. There 
>are several good storage options, hydrides and chemical-based, that are 
>safer than high pressure tanks, the default option which should NOT be 
>allowed because of the risk, but the major problem with the hydrides is a 
>mess of overlapping patents and cost.

Hydrides sure would be nice, but I predict they will remain too heavy and 
expensive. I think the only reasonably safe, cost-effective methods 
available today are to carry gasoline and reformulate it (a short-term, 
transitional scheme), or to use liquid hydrogen. Liquid and compressed 
hydrogen are safer than their reputations. They are probably safer than 
gasoline. See P. Hoffman, "Tomorrow's Energy," Chapter 11 ("Safety"). The 
safety issue has been studied intensively by NASA, SRI and others. NASA has 
experienced 96  incidents such as trucks carrying hydrogen that ran off 
roads, turned over, broke or were otherwise severely damaged. Fire broke 
out in 61 cases, but it was not as severe as a similar fire with gasoline 
truck.


>Next, realize that it takes 152kwh to generate 3 kg H2 at current 
>efficiency (updated figures supplied by Argonne National Laboratory from 
>an actual home setup) . . .
>
>12.5 gal of gasoline   $2.00/gal = $ 25.00

This number only works with hydride storage or low pressure tanks. Any 
other method requires significant additional energy for pumping and 
compressing.


>There is a wild card that would make H2 even more enticing, at even lower 
>cost but it is based on natural gas and is a non-renewable interim 
>solution. Honda has invested some major bucks to develop home-based hybrid 
>FC generators which can produce H2 fuel so that drivers don't have to fill 
>up at H2 stations, which are nonexistent anyway. . . .

I think on-board gasoline reformulating would be more practical, since you 
could travel any distance from home. Of course this is an interim solution.

A major stumbling block for any fuel cell automobile or electric generator 
scheme may be the need for platinum group metals. I do not think there are 
enough metals to outfit every car or every home generator. Have any of the 
recently unveiled prototypes overcome this problem?

About half the Pd now produced (mined and recycled) is used for ICE 
catalytic converters. This would no longer be needed with fuel cell cars, 
so a large supply would be freed up, but I still doubt there would be enough.

- Jed


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  Jones Beene wrote


  "Fred,

  > "Those 34 ply rubber and plastic tires would burn and smoke like =
coal in a forge when hit by >a small jet of oxygen-rich high temperature =
air."
  >
  "Good point. It could have been a streamer from ignited rubber =
tires...but are the tires themselves pressurized with air? I would think =
it would be something more inert, like CO2 maybe?"

  Pure Nitrogen see:

  http://195.154.239.169/aviation/about/space.html

  The space shuttle tires are filled with nitrogen (as are most aircraft =
tires) due to its stability at different altitudes and temperatures. Due =
to the extremely heavy loads these bias ply tires are inflated to 340 =
psi (main gear) and 300 psi (nose gear).

  But at five miles per second in the millitorr air pressure at 200,000 =
feet the incandescent air is still  ~22% O2.under high pressure beneath =
the wings on re-entry.

  Under those "forge-like" conditions you could burn a hole through one =
or both tires in seconds.

  Apparently there has to be a vent for the wheel well to bleed off =
atmospheric air during launch too.

  Note the size of the wheel well "doors" wrt. the 44 inch tires in the =
photo.

  Regards,

  Frederick

  >Jones

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; COLOR: =
#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Jones Beene wrote</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>"Fred,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&gt;&nbsp;"Those 34 ply rubber and plastic tires would burn and =
smoke=20
  like coal in a forge when hit by &gt;a small jet of oxygen-rich high=20
  temperature air."</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>"Good point. It could have been a streamer from ignited rubber=20
  tires...but are the tires themselves pressurized with air? I would =
think it=20
  would be something more inert, like&nbsp;CO2 maybe?"</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Pure Nitrogen see:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://195.154.239.169/aviation/about/space.html">http://195.154.=
239.169/aviation/about/space.html</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
  size=3D-2>The space shuttle tires are filled with nitrogen (as are =
most aircraft=20
  tires) due to its stability at different altitudes and temperatures. =
Due to=20
  the extremely heavy loads these bias ply tires are inflated to 340 psi =
(main=20
  gear) and 300 psi (nose gear).</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>But at five miles per second in the millitorr air =
pressure=20
  at 200,000 feet the incandescent air is still  ~22% O2.under high =
pressure=20
  beneath the wings on re-entry.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Under those "forge-like" conditions you could burn =
a hole=20
  through one or both tires in seconds.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Apparently there has to be a vent for the wheel =
well to=20
  bleed off atmospheric air during launch too.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Note the size of the wheel well "doors" wrt. the =
44 inch=20
  tires in the photo.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Frederick</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&gt;Jones</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 15:07:19 2003
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Subject: Re: Amazing photo and story
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        Do have any idea when the actual picture will be published ?    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 16:13:10 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 16:06:13 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Updated H2 figures
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I think the only reasonably safe, cost-effective methods 
> available today are to carry gasoline and reformulate it (a short-term, 
> transitional scheme), or to use liquid hydrogen. 

If you mean using today's actually available, not reported technology....then lower pressure H2 storage isn't quite here yet, but there is so much hype that it adds a new dimension to  "vaporware," It has been shown that several types of graphite nanofibers are capable of absorbing and storing high quantities of hydrogen and can be made at reasonable costs. Fullerenes work too but are much higher in cost. Zeolites may work, but are less advanced. A company called  Nanomix has had a prototype cold nanofiber tank in operation since January, 2002 but what we need for home hydrogen is room temperature or close. 

The graphite nanofibers usually consist of very small graphite platelets. The carbon nano-particles hold the near term promise as a cost effective storage method for hydrogen - but AFAIK there is no product now that you can go out and purchase.

Many of the H2 storage inventors have been aggressive self-promoters, and trade secrets or overlapping patents have caused a lot of litigation and cross-licensing. I believe that Toyota wanted to use a nanofiber tank but the lawyers were scared away. The most successful claimed carbon patent suitable for H2 storage seems to be the Rodriguez and Baker, U. S. Patent No. 5,653,951, Issued Aug. 5, 1997 which claims 3 units of H2 per every 2 units of carbon by weight. This is rather astonishing but Terry Baker and Nelly Rodriguez, a fellow Northeastern chemistry professor and also Terry's wife, realized even greater possibility of storage by using the more expensive carbon nanotubes. Their research findings have produced astounding results: 30 liters of hydrogen in one gram of carbon! At this rate a 25 liter tank which is half the size of a gasoline tank and weighs 87 kg can power a car for 5,000 miles. These experiments have been supposedly repeated fifty times by Baker and Rodriguez. These results however have been greeted with a lot of skepticism because other researchers repeating seemingly the same experiments have gotten far less hydrogen storage and nanotubes are expensive now - although carbon itself is pennies per pound, so that chapter isn't finished yet.

I think that Ford may have already licensed this Rodriguez patent or another similar one, but I know of no actual prototype tank that was at the show. Ford used 5000 psi tanks. Honda and Plug Power seem to think storage is not a big issue. But, as you say, their system needs Pd or Pt, which may be an insurmountable issue for any PEM cell if other metals wont do the trick, but this is a non-issue for the Ford model U engine, and if Ford can license the low pressure nanofiber tank for home-hydrogen then everything that is necessary might be just about in place...

...everything, that is, except the political will-power.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 17:54:18 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: cosmology
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Since there is no need to mention the pompus blowhard who wrote this, I won't

>      Who is to say ?   But you cannot deny the fact there are more planets in
>the universe,  than there are grains of sand on the beach.  We have to be
>totally ignorant if we think we are the only life forms in the uviverse..
>That is Stone Age thinking and a total small minded arrogant attitude if we
>think are.

According to the cosmology of Dewey B Larson, developer of the 
Recriprocal Universe, the entire universe is like the skin of a 
balloon which is expanding at the speed of light.

I like this cosmology because it fits with my belief in the literal 
interpretation of the Bible. It is prophecized that the sky will roll 
up like a scroll, taking all the stars with it. This will happen 
shortly after the sun goes out.

In response to your questioning my test procedure. Motors are 
difficult to make measurements with because their efficiency 
decreases with size and their energy consumption increases with load. 
A light load is constant. Three of them tied together on one leg 
would utilize three phase power. The ultimate measure of power 
consumption is a resistive heater.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 17:54:51 2003
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>Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>and Edmund Storms responded:
>  >
>  >
>>  And, I presume the previous president was competent, IYO.
>
>No, he was not competent, but he did not start a worldwide
>conflict we can not win.

This conflict has been going on for about 5000 years

>Sometimes the best plan is to do
>nothing

Were you sleeping when he attacked the Serbs? I realize that their 
behavior was awful, but he destroyed the country, and now women and 
children are expressing U in their urine.

>except have sex with your colleagues and then lie
>through your teeth.  No one dies, no money is wasted, and
>great entertainment is provided.

That awful man did his best to destroy the moral fiber of this 
country, and you call it entertainment!

>  Many people hoped Bush
>would  be just as irrelevant.  But no, he has to piss off
>the whole world while helping  powerful corporations
>increase their influence here at home.

The big corporations have done well under both parties. If this is 
the case, then explain why they are overwhelming liberal.

>In his spare time,
>he allows his lesser minions to undo freedoms that have been
>put in place over the centuries.

When you have enemies who are inside the country, and sworn to 
destroy it's infrastructure, strong measures are called for.

>Events test leaders.  Good
>leaders resist the obvious, simple-minded path and resist
>appealing to the hysteria of the masses. Instead, they
>defend that which is valuable and try to do no harm.

There is no appeasing evil, it has to be destroyed.

>  The
>Bush administration has failed this test.  But then, that is
>only my opinion.

But not as badly as would president Algore.

>
>Ed
>
>Yoni; an American who went alliah, and rose to the rank of Major in 
>the IDF, and is now back here starting a security business, just 
>called in to the Hugh Hewitt show. He wishes to point out that there 
>is a school in Iraq were they practice hijacking airplanes with 
>short bladed knives.

Dan Rather interviewed Sodamn Insane in an interview that will air on 
60 minutes II. We've been suggesting questions that he should have 
asked. I brought up the job description of an Iraqi officer whose job 
description was "taker of the honor of women." I also suggested that 
he test some of that nerve gas on himself.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 19:27:11 2003
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   The mayor of NYC who was in the trenches and not hiding like bush was 
during 9-11 who be a good candidate.  Bush missed that chance That would have 
secured a second term. At least Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar.  He was just 
horny all the time. 

  I met Nadar he was to arrogant like Bush   I stood right beside him during 
a press inter view for a half hour.   Last fall   When  I was at the Michael 
Moore Premier here because he is from here.  I sit in the front row  during 
the  movie  and the Phil Donahue  show afterward. I'm the one with  black 
leather Cap on backwards in the green pull over. I was speaking with Michael 
during breaks and he said I was just like Billy Durant Crazy  Billy founded 
GM here in 1908.   

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thomas malloy wrote:

> >Terry Blanton wrote:
> >
> >and Edmund Storms responded:
> >  >
> >  >
> >>  And, I presume the previous president was competent, IYO.
> >
> >No, he was not competent, but he did not start a worldwide
> >conflict we can not win.
>
> This conflict has been going on for about 5000 years

Conflict of some kind has been going on for longer than that, but this
is not the point.  The present conflict is the issue.  I know you like
to place this in a larger picture, but that provides little comfort if
you or a loved one is killed because of poor and avoidable decisions.

>
>
> >Sometimes the best plan is to do
> >nothing
>
> Were you sleeping when he attacked the Serbs? I realize that their
> behavior was awful, but he destroyed the country, and now women and
> children are expressing U in their urine.

The US joined NATO and the UN to bring stability to that part of the
world.  Of course damage was done and the people suffered.  That is the
nature of war.  The issue is how best to go about giving stability to
another part of the world now  The US and the European countries did the
best they could under the circumstances in Serbia.  Will we do as well
in Iraq?  How many of their women and children will express U in their
urine?  Will you then blame Bush when this is discovered?

>
>
> >except have sex with your colleagues and then lie
> >through your teeth.  No one dies, no money is wasted, and
> >great entertainment is provided.
>
> That awful man did his best to destroy the moral fiber of this
> country, and you call it entertainment!

I know of no one who used Clayton's behavior as a model for their
immoral behavior.  Do you?  The moral fiber of a country is not so
easily destroyed.  I suggest the programs on TV have a greater effect
morals.  These programs show ordinary people doing immoral things on a
regular basis, yet no one gets upset.  After all, this is freedom of
speech, while Clayton only had freedom of expression on his side.

>
>
> >  Many people hoped Bush
> >would  be just as irrelevant.  But no, he has to piss off
> >the whole world while helping  powerful corporations
> >increase their influence here at home.
>
> The big corporations have done well under both parties. If this is
> the case, then explain why they are overwhelming liberal.

Where did you get the idea that major corporations were liberal,
whatever that means to you?  To me "liberal" means a regard for the
average working person, a regard for future generations, a regard for
the health of the population, both physical and mental, and a regard for
the health of the environment  This is in contrast to a regard for one's
short-term self-interest and greed.  I see little of the former in the
behavior of powerful cooperation's these days.

>
>
> >In his spare time,
> >he allows his lesser minions to undo freedoms that have been
> >put in place over the centuries.
>
> When you have enemies who are inside the country, and sworn to
> destroy it's infrastructure, strong measures are called for.

That is the excuse of every tyrant.  Of course we have enemies within
and they will  always be present.  The issue is, can they destroy some
infrastructure and are we willing to give up hard won freedoms to
protect the possible loss of some infrastructure?  As history has shown,
infrastructure is easier to replace than freedom.  I do not want to
reduce the importance of protecting the country.  However, while one
part of the government is removing freedoms, another part is denying the
money needed to implement the protection.  Why not fight to get support
for the obvious protection  rather than give up freedom before it is
necessary?

>
>
> >Events test leaders.  Good
> >leaders resist the obvious, simple-minded path and resist
> >appealing to the hysteria of the masses. Instead, they
> >defend that which is valuable and try to do no harm.
>
> There is no appeasing evil, it has to be destroyed.

Evil is always in the eye of the beholder.  Calling the enemy evil is
always used as a reason for war.  We are evil in the eyes of some in the
Arab world, with Allah on their side, and they are evil to us, with God
on our side.  Such thinking will never save mankind from his own violent
nature.

>
>
> >  The
> >Bush administration has failed this test.  But then, that is
> >only my opinion.
>
> But not as badly as would president Algore.

We will never know, will we?

Ed

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n:; 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 20:44:04 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:40:07 EST
Subject: we need to wise up 
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   Storms is an Elitist that is plain to see he thinks he belongs to a select 
group of the what he considers the uper crust class  and arrogant with a 
giant ego is an understatment.If he is Physics type. 

His  little theory world is  going to go up in smoke.  Sorry for the positive 
changes to happen the major shift is necessary  most of his types will not be 
able to handle the change   Because they never have been prepared for it 
Whereas there forefathers were prepared for anything. WE have lost that 
pioneer sprit and that was what build the country.

  And it have to return so we can rebuild it.   The people that built this 
country were all misfits.  Thet came here seking a better life. Because 
europe was like we are becoming.  Now they wised up and are now like we use 
to be.  Plus they and Japan are green thinkers. 

We are not and  along with not wiseing up as they have  is why were are so 
far behind them.  it is time to wise up. and think green   When  I was at the 
SAE world conference using press pases from Electrifying times  DENSO  paid 
for the Media room food and they has there CO programs on the walls.  Now 
they have a total green program they even capture and use rain water.         

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 21:24:55 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:22:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Giant hydrogen-from-wind program, rough estimates, risk management and to...
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Ahhyes.  A pleasurable toy to destract the scientific mind...

:-)

By the way.  In further descussion I was corrected on the mapleseed
thing.

In present communications with emergency management folks another idea
has come into view. 

WARNING! LOCAL DIALECT USED.

Around these parts land is frequent used for many diferent things.  Why
it's no problem when oil fields is leased as grazin land, or for deer
huntin stands.  Ranch land might could be leased to a sod buster and
visiversa dependin on the local need.  Yall could lease proper easement
for yall's wind contraptions and spread them out in a safe and sain
manner.  That way allyall could exist together without no damn range war.
 

Sometimes you science folks can look at a cowpatty and thinks its a
mushroom.  Yall know what I'm sayn here?  Any-way.  If ya own the land
and lease it out it pays you, and if ya let it out from someone else on a
easement then you got it for cheep and the owner will likely be the one
fixin your fense.

  
--- ConexTom aol.com wrote:
> In message dated 2/24/2003 3:44:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> ConexTom aol.com 
> writes:
> 
> > Blimps could also be used to carry giant wind mills on them
> 
> Blimbs cost $99.99 at technoscout that can be run remote control from
> 300 
> feet away. 
> 
> http://www.technoscout.com/general/product/product.asp?product=172&
> Prod_Name=Navy_Airship/UFO_Blimp&site=85855
> 
> Baron Von Volsung, <A
> HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
> Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A
> HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 21:46:27 2003
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From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
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Subject: Re: Updated H2 figures
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:47:59 -0600
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On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:06:06 -0800, Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
wrote:

>Next, realize that it takes 152kwh to generate 3 kg H2 at current efficiency (updated figures supplied by Argonne National Laboratory from an actual home setup) 152kwh  $0.06/kwh= $9.00 ...or 8 kg= $24.00  IF done at off-peak hours when the utility was forced to sell power at this fair price, 6 cents, but only if used after midnight and before 6 am - for any home owner who installed a small electrolyzer, which could be placed in the garage for a slow and safe night-time refill. (hydrogen sensor alarms are available for safety).
>
>12.5 gal of gasoline   $2.00/gal = $ 25.00

You're making the rash assumption that hydrogen production won't be
taxed, somehow.  After all, almost half of the $2.00/gal gasoline is
taxes.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 24 22:09:38 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Amazing photo and story
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Jones Breene poste;

>
>There is far firmer evidence for some kind of physical anomaly here, 
>but certainly nothing devious caused by directly humans. Even if it 
>is some kind of "sprite" then maybe the real story is that sprites 
>are fairly common and can bring down a spacecraft, or at least an 
>already vulnerable craft.
>
>That would actually be a very big story. I personally have seen 
>impressive sprites (essentially "reverse" lightning) -believe me, 
>you will never forget seeing one from an airplane, and if they were 
>a potential safety concern, that would be nice to know.
>
>Not that there's much that could be done to avoid one.
>
  It's good to be back to business as usual on Vortex-L. My friend 
Phi, who is the biggest conspiracy buff I know, emailed me the 
original article and suggested that it was a Bearden directed energy 
weapon. I'm glad that there is a natural explanation. I've heard of 
this phenomena before. As I recall, there is the equivalent of a 
lightning strike, and puff, there goes the computers. That bird is 
impossible to fly without the computers.

Keep us posted

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 01:12:38 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:09:57 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Amazing photo and story
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Thomas wrote:

>That bird is impossible to fly without the computers.

The electrical gear onboard was apparently fine after the alleged 'strike'. Everything was working until the sensors started going offline and it broke up quite a few minutes later. 

- Rick Monteverde,
Honolulu Hawaii

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 03:15:36 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Coal Hydrogen vs Electrolysis Hydrogen
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 04:11:48 -0600
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With all due respect, Jones. :-)

A typical industrial electrolysis cell operating at 2.5 volts and 10,000 amperes
produces one pound of hydrogen per hour (hence 25 kilowatt-hours/pound).Or a 2.5 kW
windmill (or a Photovoltaic panel) running constantly at full load for 10 hours will
produce a pound of hydrogen.

It takes about 100 pounds of hydrogen to equal the 5.6 million BTUs in a barrel of
oil, or the burning of about 5 barrels of oil or 1.25 tons of coal  to produce and
distribute the electricity required for the 100 pounds of hydrogen.

Based on the present U.S. consumption of 20 million barrels of oil per day, how is an
electrolysis-based "hydrogen economy" going to cut that fossil fuel consumption?

OTOH, coal gasification to SNG (CH4)and/or Methanol (CH3OH:

1,   2 C (24 tons) +  4 H2O (72 tons) ---> 2 CO2 (88 tons) +  4 H2 ( 8 tons)

2, CO2 (44 tons)  + 4 H2 (8 tons) ---> CH4 (16 tons) + 2 H2O (36 tons)

3, CO2 (44 tons) + 3 H2 ( 6 tons) ---> CH3OH (32 tons) + H2O (18 tons)

These reactions are routine with plants that produce 5,000 tons per day or more of SNG
and/or Methanol.

With the Wyoming coal reserves of ~ 60 billion tons and Montana with about twice that,
and Dick Cheney being from Wyoming, etc ....  :-)

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 05:46:58 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Coal Hydrogen vs Electrolysis Hydrogen
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At 4:11 AM 2/25/3, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>1,   2 C (24 tons) +  4 H2O (72 tons) ---> 2 CO2 (88 tons) +  4 H2 ( 8 tons)
>
>2, CO2 (44 tons)  + 4 H2 (8 tons) ---> CH4 (16 tons) + 2 H2O (36 tons)
>
>3, CO2 (44 tons) + 3 H2 ( 6 tons) ---> CH3OH (32 tons) + H2O (18 tons)


In the arctic, in cold high wind areas, like mountain tops, it may be
economical to produce the CO2 in step 1 directly from the atmosphere.

In addition, stored liquified air and dry ice, plus thermal energy stored
as geothermal heat, should make for high thermal efficiency energy storage
and regeneration to sustain steps 2 and 3  during low wind periods.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 05:47:49 2003
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Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
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At 8:35 AM 2/23/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:51:50 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>No "additional" momentum must be carried by the photon for the photon to
>>have and/or carry mass and yet have rest mass zero
>[snip]
>What they are trying to determine is whether or not it has a rest mass of zero.


Photons do not have an "apparent" rest mass of zero if relativity is
correct.  The momentum of the photon affects the velocity of the target.
The velocity of the target changes and thus its mass changes.  That mass
corresponds exactly to the energy of the photon.  This mass can not be
measured by the experiment, however, beause there is no "additional"
momentum associated with it.

The article specifically says:

>if light had mass, the rotating balance would
>suffer an additional tiny torque.

This is false.  The photon can have zero apparent "rest mass" by this
definition, yet still have mass in all respects, i.e. carry mass from one
body to another, be affected by gravitational fields, in all ways exhibit
mass, but NOT carry any "additional" momentum (beyond the Plank momentum p
= h/lambda) at all.  The experiment does not measure the mass exchanged,
only the momentum transfer.

One problem with what I am saying is possibly that the mass exchanged
depends on the observer's reference frame.  If an object travelling toward
another object exchanges a photon, then negative mass is exchanged between
the photon and each of the two objects.  The photon would then reduce the
net mass of the universe.  If two objects are travelling toward each other
at velocity v and after the exchange are travelling away from each other
(at relative velocity at -v), then zero mass is exchanged by the photon.
This may be a problem in my thinking about photon mass.  The mass exchanged
depends on the reference frame of the observer.  I would point out, though,
that negative mass exchange results in corrsponding negative energy
exchange, so E/m is still c for the universe, if I see this correctly.  It
is merely the universe totals that depend on reference frame.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:15:33 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [OFF TOPIC]]
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>  >Terry Blanton wrote:
>>  >
>  > >and Edmund Storms responded:
>  >
>  >
>>  The big corporations have done well under both parties. If this is
>>  the case, then explain why they are overwhelming liberal.
>
>Where did you get the idea that major corporations were liberal,
>whatever that means to you?  To me "liberal" means a regard for the
>average working person, a regard for future generations, a regard for
>the health of the population, both physical and mental, and a regard for
>the health of the environment  This is in contrast to a regard for one's
>short-term self-interest and greed.  I see little of the former in the
>behavior of powerful cooperation's these days.

You may think that is liberalism Ed, but I see liberalism in a different light.

  It is a philosophy without objective standards of right and wrong. 
It is a philosophy in which the will of the individual is 
subordinated to the will of the group. In which the government takes 
it upon itself to do for the individual what they should be doing for 
themselves. It has ideas which conflict with the underlying values of 
our culture such as homosexuality. It teaches women to behave like 
men, and attempts to deball the boys. Most of all, it is anti Judeo 
Christian. It is also anti military. They fail to realize that all 
the freedoms that we have, we owe to the soldier. They also want to 
disarm us.

The people who believe in the more extreme forms of liberalism, 
become alienated from society. They hate the country which has given 
them the right to hate it. They have no morality, and since they have 
no respect for themselves, they engage in self destructive behaviors 
like promiscuous sex and drugs. They are profoundly narcissistic. Go 
to a peace rally and you will see one form of them, they have 
multiple piercings, tattoos, and hair done in dread locks, they are 
the modern version of the hippies. Another group of these people are 
the mean faced, clipped hair femanatnazis who tend become 
bureaucrats. Then you have academics believe in Marxist Lenninism, 
there is an economic system that has failed every time it has been 
tried, only academics are stupid enough to believe in it.

They have no respect for our G-d's will. Consequentaly they back the 
Arabs against Israel. Completely ignoring the fact that if they lived 
under Sharia law, they would be executed, and that Israel is a 
pluralistic society, which is doing it's best to defend itself 
against bloody attacks coming from one segment of it's population.

This philosophy is supported by the bureaucracy, academia and large 
corporations. I pointed out the works of Anthony Sutton to you. The 
corporate establishment bankrolled the Russian revolution and then 
built the Soviet industrial complex. They also bankrolled the Nazi's. 
Their agenda is to destroy our culture, so that they can get power, 
Can you come up with another reason for them to do this?

>
>>
>>
>>  >In his spare time,
>>  >he allows his lesser minions to undo freedoms that have been
>>  >put in place over the centuries.
>>
>>  When you have enemies who are inside the country, and sworn to
>>  destroy it's infrastructure, strong measures are called for.
>
>That is the excuse of every tyrant.  Of course we have enemies within
>and they will  always be present.  The issue is, can they destroy some
>infrastructure and are we willing to give up hard won freedoms to
>protect the possible loss of some infrastructure?  As history has shown,
>infrastructure is easier to replace than freedom.  I do not want to
>reduce the importance of protecting the country.  However, while one
>part of the government is removing freedoms, another part is denying the
>money needed to implement the protection.  Why not fight to get support
>for the obvious protection  rather than give up freedom before it is
>necessary?

Unless they suspend the constitution, we have basic liberties. When 
we get conservative judges in the courts, this situation will be 
reversed.

>
>>
>>
>>  >Events test leaders.  Good
>  > >leaders resist the obvious, simple-minded path and resist
>>  >appealing to the hysteria of the masses. Instead, they
>>  >defend that which is valuable and try to do no harm.
>>
>>  There is no appeasing evil, it has to be destroyed.
>
>Evil is always in the eye of the beholder.  Calling the enemy evil is
>always used as a reason for war.  We are evil in the eyes of some in the
>Arab world, with Allah on their side, and they are evil to us, with God
>on our side.  Such thinking will never save mankind from his own violent
>nature.

This is exactly what Dennis Prager was talking about yesterday. We 
have a society where Torah is the basis of the legal system in which 
the rights of the individual are respected. Compared to the nations 
in which Sharia law is the basis for the legal system, which are all 
dictatorships. that ought to tell you something.

For you to say that we have no right to be judgemental is misguided. 
It is one of the basis of liberal thinking. I contend that the moral 
man has an obligation to be judgemental, and confront evil.

>
>>
>>
>>  >  The
>>  >Bush administration has failed this test.  But then, that is
>>  >only my opinion.
>>
>>  But not as badly as would president Algore.
>
>We will never know, will we?

I don't know about that, I don't think that anything would have 
changed. In other words, it would have been more of appeasement, 
which has never worked, and never will `work.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 07:13:42 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Coal Hydrogen vs Electrolysis Hydrogen
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi Fred,
 
> Based on the present U.S. consumption of 20 million barrels of oil per day, how is an
> electrolysis-based "hydrogen economy" going to cut that fossil fuel consumption?

It's not. It's pretty hard to cover all the bases in a short post, and (even though my posts are seldom short) I wasn't suggesting anything like an electrolysis-based hydrogen economy overy the long run.

All I was suggesting is this.  As Lao-tzu  expressed the sentiment 2500 years ago, the journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. We haven't even made the first step yet, and at the pace that Bush suggests, it might not even happen this decade. 

I think it would be more prudent to jump start the very early stage of the hydrogen economy so that we can take a closer look at the variables, even if the first step doesn't take us very far.
 
> OTOH, coal gasification to SNG (CH4)and/or Methanol (CH3OH:
> 
> 1,   2 C (24 tons) +  4 H2O (72 tons) ---> 2 CO2 (88 tons) +  4 H2 ( 8 tons)
> 
> 2, CO2 (44 tons)  + 4 H2 (8 tons) ---> CH4 (16 tons) + 2 H2O (36 tons)
> 
> 3, CO2 (44 tons) + 3 H2 ( 6 tons) ---> CH3OH (32 tons) + H2O (18 tons)
> 
> These reactions are routine with plants that produce 5,000 tons per day or more of SNG
> and/or Methanol.
> 
> With the Wyoming coal reserves of ~ 60 billion tons and Montana with about twice that,
> and Dick Cheney being from Wyoming, etc ....  :-)

Yes, I agree that methanol makes a lot of sense. Actually from where we are right now, methanol is proably the preferred fuel to get us weaned off of Arab oil.  But it's not an either/or situation; and it would be wise to proceed on several fronts, methanol being one and home-based electrolysis being another...

...and of course, biomass conversion, and H2 from bacteria, being other fronts that should all be possible if we could shift most of the money wasted in the "oil depletion allowance" over to alternative energy pursuits...

Jones

 

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:14:31 EST
Subject: Hydrogen Producing Microbes
To: aelewis provide.net, newsonline@bbc.co.uk, drboylan@sbcglobal.net,
        thebishop usadatanet.net, prj@mail.msen.com, reader@guardian.co.uk,
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Since tree's produce CO2 from oxygen, it should be possible to find or 
engineer bacteria or microbes, which convert subatomic quark neutrinos into a 
hydrogen atom, to create hydrogen from neutrinos naturally.   The mechanical 
process of converting neutrinos to hydrogen should be the inverse of 
converting hydrogen to neutrinos.   A cyclotron converts atoms to neutrinos 
by accelerating energy and atoms with magnets.   A reverse cyclotron, could 
collect neutrinos, and cool them to a slower state, by using magnetic 
energies to slow them down and to rearrange them in a magnetic crystalline 
matrix, which is similar to the hydrogen atom, to cause the neutrinos to 
become hydrogen atoms.   Once the above reverse cyclotron process is 
perfected, it can be miniaturized and placed in nanotechnology or in 
genetically manipulated microbiological bacteria and plants, to create 
hydrogen in mass, naturally.   

If hydrogen can be made from plants and bacteria, then water can also be 
created from engineered plants and bacteria which take in excess heat, 
oxygen, and neutrinos from the environment, to create hydrogen and water.   
Such a plant would thrive in a desert, to reclaim desert land in mass 
naturally, so that deserts may become Utopias once again, to help solve 
population problems throughout the world. 


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Since tree's produce CO2 from oxygen, it should be possible to find or engin=
eer bacteria or microbes, which convert subatomic quark neutrinos into a hyd=
rogen atom, to create hydrogen from neutrinos naturally.&nbsp;&nbsp; The mec=
hanical process of converting neutrinos to hydrogen should be the inverse of=
 converting hydrogen to neutrinos.&nbsp;&nbsp; A cyclotron converts atoms to=
 neutrinos by accelerating energy and atoms with magnets.&nbsp;&nbsp; A reve=
rse cyclotron, could collect neutrinos, and cool them to a slower state, by=20=
using magnetic energies to slow them down and to rearrange them in a magneti=
c crystalline matrix, which is similar to the hydrogen atom, to cause the ne=
utrinos to become hydrogen atoms.&nbsp;&nbsp; Once the above reverse cyclotr=
on process is perfected, it can be miniaturized and placed in nanotechnology=
 or in genetically manipulated microbiological bacteria and plants, to creat=
e hydrogen in mass, naturally.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
If hydrogen can be made from plants and bacteria, then water can also be cre=
ated from engineered plants and bacteria which take in excess heat, oxygen,=20=
and neutrinos from the environment, to create hydrogen and water.&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Such a plant would thrive in a desert, to reclaim desert land in mass natu=
rally, so that deserts may become Utopias once again, to help solve populati=
on problems throughout the world. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhf=
web.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 08:00:18 2003
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:53:44 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Updated H2 figures
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Hi, 

> You're making the rash assumption that hydrogen production won't be
> taxed, somehow.  After all, almost half of the $2.00/gal gasoline is
> taxes.

No, I'm not saying exactly that H2 shouldn't be taxed eventually. At some point in time, when hydrogen, methanol or whatever, get a firm hold on a portion of the energy market, then they will be taxed as well. 

It is just that tax incentives, or dis-incentives for imported oil, for a short time should work to give these newer technologies a foothold.

Let's face it, anytime money is freely flowing, "uncle" is going to get his finger in the pie. There have been a lot of recent suggestions to start taxing the internet even, what is partially a tax on the free-flow of information. It seems counter-productive, but the cynic in me believes that it is inevitable.

Jones

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Coal Hydrogen vs Electrolysis Hydrogen
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Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> In the arctic, in cold high wind areas, like mountain tops, it may be
> economical to produce the CO2 in step 1 directly from the atmosphere.

Biomass does that, even in the oceans.  :-)

For very pound of carbon burned in a power plant,furnace or vehicle, 3.66 pounds of
CO2 goes out the stack. Breweries and ethanol plants produce about a pound CO2 for
each pound of alcohol produced
>
Regards,  Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 09:18:49 2003
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Subject: Re: Coal Hydrogen vs Electrolysis Hydrogen
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Jones Beene wrote:
>
>It's pretty hard to cover all the bases in a short post, and >(even though my posts
are seldom short) I wasn't >suggesting anything like an electrolysis-based hydrogen
>economy overy the long run.

>From a practical standpoint the power companies size a plant based on one kilowatt per
capita with the average residence use of 500 kw-hour per month, and the pole
transformer sized for 15- 25 kw (50-100 amperes   240 volts).

Go over that, and they put in a demand and power factor meter and bill you
accordingly.  At 25 kw-hr per pound of hydrogen produced, 20 pounds per
month/residence will double the 500 kw-hr residential demand.

Look what you need in the way of a 2.5 volt D.C. power supply for 10,000 ampere-hours
per pound of hydrogen produced.  You can break it down to 1,000 amperes  for 20 hours
(still 50 kw-hrs) to get the hydrogen equivalent of a gallon of gasoline.

Step-down transformers that have a 240 volt primary with a 2.5 volt-1,000 ampere
secondary, and the silicon rectifiers could be quite pricey.
>
> All I was suggesting is this.  As Lao-tzu  expressed the >sentiment 2500 years ago,
the journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step.

So does a quick trip to the bottom of Grand Canyon.  :-)
>
>We haven't even made the first step yet, and at the pace >that Bush suggests, it
might not even happen this decade.
I see the Shell Hydrogen collaboration with Japan as a do-it-now approach, but most
likely they will be steam reforming Natural Gas, Methanol, or heavier hydrocarbons at
the hydrogen "gas stations".
>
> ...and of course, biomass conversion, and H2 from bacteria, being other fronts that
should all be possible if we could shift most of the money wasted in the "oil
depletion allowance" over to alternative energy pursuits...
>
Agreed.

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Jones
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 10:16:01 2003
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Subject:  STOP AND THINK FOR ONCE Why hydrogen will not work. ????
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     Stop And Think for once.  With using present theory only thinking 
hydrogen will not work.  New different situations in this case ones that are 
operational on top of that are going to create frustration. Also in this case 
The presenter of those new different situations is going to react. To what he 
sees as combative no investigation first before making judgments attitudes. 

 When he will only reviles evolutionary new concept and basic operational 
info. Which is all he has to do if he has operational demos?  People want to 
jump over the concept when it is necessary to understand that first. Because 
that aspect is all new 

Then he is badger for not being a tech. person by nature or berated for his 
poor grammar.  Sorry no one is perfect. Unless your an Eng. or a physicist or 
in the EDU. field. WE know they are all perfect because they tell us they 
are.   But offers Tech backup but no one takes advantage of that offer. 

Case in point Dan's He is a GM Eng. HyOx Hydrogen propulsion process is not a 
viable Tech. But that is what he supports and to him that is all there is, in 
his scope of vision, which is limiting yourself. Plus he is an Eng. and 
thinks only other Eng. like him that are formal trained can create new 
problem solving situations. And is why he will not investigate.  

 Now an explanation why hydrogen is not viable because Dan would not call our 
Tech. People to save Embarrassment or the Chief Scientist of Delphi a fellow 
engineer.  Witch is what I was attempting to accomplish but he has left me no 
choice.  Because of his apparent total lack of understanding of the complete 
process.

 That he apparently only understands a portion of, which is the theory not 
the operational side. So I conferred with the Tech. people in order to be 
able to explain the complete process. When he could have heard it from the 
horses mouth instead of the horse behind. No, that would have been to easy. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------
  WHEN you split a molecule of water your by product is oxygen.  When it hits 
the atmosphere as exhaust it turns into water witch was its original form. 
This is where the problem is created. Because other compounds derived from 
the process are mixed in with it.  

  Then it recombines with the polluted from fossil fuel emissions hydrogen, 
in the atmosphere. Because all it knows per se is its natural form. Because 
you have taken it out of it natural form and it is lost per se but finds it 
way back. 

 The result is acid rain probably totally beyond you imagination. Because 
splitting it with a man made process is an unnatural process not a natural 
one. The environment is geared to deal with only natural processes. Not 
unnatural ones. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------
Witch is what they are attempting to create. With their Hydrogen madness.  
They cannot understand you cannot create situations that conflict with 
nature. Otherwise nature will turn on you for attempting to. The old saying 
holds true that our forefathers passed on to us for a reason.  But we know 
everything and will not listen to those that were far wiser than us   

 That is ""You do not screw with mother nature."" Those who have, Have 
learned the hard way. They  lost their civilizations in many cases as we 
will, if we keep screwing with her. Because she does not forgive ignorance. 

The American Indians learned that thousands of years ago. And is why they are 
they way they are.  They are taught from day one Do not screw with mother 
nature under any circumstances. SHOW her absolute respect at all cost. 
Because she gives you life. That thinking came about because their knowledge 
has been passed down orally sins they learned their lessons.  WE have not 
learned our lessons yet.  And that lesson is leave water in its natural form. 
Do not screw with it. 

He also totally fails to realize it was basically Self taught Farm Boy Type 
Eng. That built GM in the First place.  A vice president of General Motors 
Institute and I agreed that was the case. They came from situations where 
they had to solve problems using there wits and abilities. They did not have 
a book to use. They had to improvise. With what they had available to them. 
Dan does not appear to understand that. Because he has never been through 
that process from appearances 

And when you have not, how can you understand that dynamic of thinking. ?   
Plus attempt to be an authority on the subject as he does. That is a display 
of arrogance. That is where the problem is in our edu. System, that once had 
the right idea. But has lost sight of that. Plus big Corp now control our 
EDU. system. Correct Dr. Doherty at GMI and they only want parts to replace 
worn out parts.  NOT all together different new parts that do not fit. 
Because those all together new parts may come up with totally new situations 

As in this case here that they cannot compete with. Witch is why I encounter 
so much resistance from Corp. Because they do not have the vision to see 
anything beyond what they know. Because there edu. did not teach creative 
thinking and free thought. They were only taught conformity.and is the reason 
we are not evolving as a civilization. 

Unless you can show me where we are. Because You have not yet. But I'm 
attempting to show you how to evolve. And have operational cost effective 
technologies to back me up. You basically have nothing expect spouting off 
theory only HOT air. Or theory only based created situations such as HyOx 
hydrogen propulsion that has not been totally thought out. 

Because only the theory side has been considered not the operational or 
possible effect side. Main stream science never considers that side.  Witch 
is a glaring mistake on their part. Because theory is  call only half the 
equation of knowledge.  And it is the least important half. Their thinking 
process is totally backwards   

 Maybe now you understand the dynamics of the current state of our 
civilization and maybe you can see where we made the glaring mistakes we did. 
That created our current dilemmas and why we are basically clueless how to 
get ourselves out of those dilemmas.

WE do not as a civilization understand problem solving as our forefathers 
did. They had no choice but to find ways by searching for them to create 
solutions.  They did not have a system to solve their problems for them.  
Whereas now they are waiting for someone to solve their problems for them. Or 
those that are searching do not have the proper tools. Because the EDU. 
system did not provide the proper tools for them to search with. 

 And they will be waiting until hell freezes over.  And without proper tools 
how can you find solutions.?  Because the bases does not exist as it once did 
that will be able to create solutions.  You have to have a bases first to 
work from. Before you can attempt to solve a problem. 

 That is not Rocket science thinking. It is only common sense.  Our 
civilization by its actions has created for itself, what is referred to as A. 
Classic Catch 22 . That I'm attempting to get them out of. But they do not 
have the vision to see that. WHY?  The answer is obvious if you can see it.   
        

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
<B>Stop And Think for once.&nbsp; With using present theory only thinking hy=
drogen will not work.&nbsp; New different situations in this case ones that=20=
are operational on top of that are going to create frustration. Also in this=
 case The presenter of those new different situations is going to react. To=20=
what he sees as combative no investigation first before making judgments att=
itudes. <BR>
<BR>
 When he will only reviles evolutionary new concept and basic operational in=
fo. Which is all he has to do if he has operational demos?&nbsp; People want=
 to jump over the concept when it is necessary to understand that first. Bec=
ause that aspect is all new <BR>
<BR>
Then he is badger for not being a tech. person by nature or berated for his=20=
poor grammar.&nbsp; Sorry no one is perfect. Unless your an Eng. or a physic=
ist or in the EDU. field. WE know they are all perfect because they tell us=20=
they are.&nbsp;&nbsp; But offers Tech backup but no one takes advantage of t=
hat offer. <BR>
<BR>
Case in point Dan's He is a GM Eng. <U>HyOx</U> Hydrogen propulsion process=20=
is not a viable Tech. But that is what he supports and to him that is all th=
ere is, in his scope of vision, which is limiting yourself. Plus he is an En=
g. and thinks only other Eng. like him that are formal trained can create ne=
w problem solving situations. And is why he will not investigate.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Now an explanation why hydrogen is not viable because Dan would not call ou=
r Tech. People to save Embarrassment or the Chief Scientist of Delphi a fell=
ow engineer.&nbsp; Witch is what I was attempting to accomplish but he has l=
eft me no choice.&nbsp; Because of his apparent total lack of understanding=20=
of the complete process.<BR>
<BR>
 That he apparently only understands a portion of, which is the theory not t=
he operational side. So I conferred with the Tech. people in order to be abl=
e to explain the complete process. When he could have heard it from the hors=
es mouth instead of the horse behind. No, that would have been to easy. <BR>
</B>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------<BR>
&nbsp; <B>WHEN you split a molecule of water your by product is oxygen.&nbsp=
; When it hits the atmosphere as exhaust it turns into water witch was its o=
riginal form. This is where the problem is created. Because other compounds=20=
derived from the process are mixed in with it.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Then it recombines with the polluted from fossil fuel emissions hydro=
gen, in the atmosphere. Because all it knows per se is its natural form. Bec=
ause you have taken it out of it natural form and it is lost per se but find=
s it way back. <BR>
<BR>
 The result is acid rain probably totally beyond you imagination. Because sp=
litting it with a man made process is an unnatural process not a natural one=
. The environment is geared to deal with only natural processes. Not unnatur=
al ones. <BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------<BR>
Witch is what they are attempting to create. With their Hydrogen madness.&nb=
sp; They cannot understand you cannot create situations that conflict with n=
ature. Otherwise nature will turn on you for attempting to. The old saying h=
olds true that our forefathers passed on to us for a reason.&nbsp; But we kn=
ow everything and will not listen to those that were far wiser than us&nbsp;=
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 That is ""You do not screw with mother nature."" Those who have, Have learn=
ed the hard way. They&nbsp; lost their civilizations in many cases as we wil=
l, if we keep screwing with her. Because she does not forgive ignorance. <BR=
>
<BR>
The American Indians learned that thousands of years ago. And is why they ar=
e they way they are.&nbsp; They are taught from day one Do not screw with mo=
ther nature under any circumstances. SHOW her absolute respect at all cost.=20=
Because she gives you life. That thinking came about because their knowledge=
 has been passed down orally sins they learned their lessons.&nbsp; WE have=20=
not learned our lessons yet.&nbsp; And that lesson is leave water in its nat=
ural form. Do not screw with it. <BR>
</B><BR>
<B>He also totally fails to realize it was basically Self taught Farm Boy Ty=
pe Eng. That built GM in the First place.&nbsp; A vice president of General=20=
Motors Institute and I agreed that was the case. They came from situations w=
here they had to solve problems using there wits and abilities. They did not=
 have a book to use. They had to improvise. With what they had available to=20=
them. Dan does not appear to understand that. Because he has never been thro=
ugh that process from appearances <BR>
<BR>
And when you have not, how can you understand that dynamic of thinking. ?&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Plus attempt to be an authority on the subject as he does. That is=
 a display of arrogance. That is where the problem is in our edu. System, th=
at once had the right idea. But has lost sight of that. Plus big Corp now co=
ntrol our EDU. system. Correct Dr. Doherty at GMI and they only want parts t=
o replace worn out parts.&nbsp; NOT all together different new parts that do=
 not fit. Because those all together new parts may come up with totally new=20=
situations <BR>
<BR>
As in this case here that they cannot compete with. Witch is why I encounter=
 so much resistance from Corp. Because they do not have the vision to see an=
ything beyond what they know. Because there edu. did not teach creative thin=
king and free thought. They were only taught conformity.and is the reason we=
 are not evolving as a civilization. <BR>
<BR>
Unless you can show me where we are. Because You have not yet. But I'm attem=
pting to show you how to evolve. And have operational cost effective technol=
ogies to back me up. You basically have nothing expect spouting off theory o=
nly HOT air. Or theory only based created situations such as HyOx hydrogen p=
ropulsion that has not been totally thought out. <BR>
<BR>
Because only the theory side has been considered not the operational or poss=
ible effect side. Main stream science never considers that side.&nbsp; Witch=
 is a glaring mistake on their part. Because theory is&nbsp; call only half=20=
the equation of knowledge.&nbsp; And it is the least important half. Their t=
hinking process is totally backwards&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Maybe now you understand the dynamics of the current state of our civilizat=
ion and maybe you can see where we made the glaring mistakes we did. That cr=
eated our current dilemmas and why we are basically clueless how to get ours=
elves out of those dilemmas.<BR>
<BR>
WE do not as a civilization understand problem solving as our forefathers di=
d. They had no choice but to find ways by searching for them to create solut=
ions.&nbsp; They did not have a system to solve their problems for them.&nbs=
p; Whereas now they are waiting for someone to solve their problems for them=
. Or those that are searching do not have the proper tools. Because the EDU.=
 system did not provide the proper tools for them to search with. <BR>
<BR>
 And they will be waiting until hell freezes over.&nbsp; And without proper=20=
tools how can you find solutions.?&nbsp; Because the bases does not exist as=
 it once did that will be able to create solutions.&nbsp; You have to have a=
 bases first to work from. Before you can attempt to solve a problem. <BR>
<BR>
 That is not Rocket science thinking. It is only common sense.&nbsp; Our civ=
ilization by its actions has created for itself, what is referred to as A. C=
lassic Catch 22 . That I'm attempting to get them out of. But they do not ha=
ve the vision to see that. WHY?&nbsp; The answer is obvious if you can see i=
t.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></=
HTML>

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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:36:00 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Hydrogen storage for Home-Hydrogen
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Hydrogen is 14 times lighter than air; therefore H2 storage is all about =
densification.=20

The approaches for densification that have been tried include =
brute-force pressurization, liquefaction, adsorption - including =
capillary absorption and hydriding, cryogenic solidification, chemical =
compounding, etc. But if you want an executive summary of this subject: =
the future of hydrogen storage is reduced to two words: *capillary =
carbon*.

Several proprietary approaches that are entering the prototype stage now =
will provide hydrogen with near-equal volumetric storage density to =
gasoline, and at modest pressures, and needing no heat to release the =
hydrogen, as with hydrides..=20

Hydrogen is smaller than any other atom, even in the diatomic molecular =
state, with a boiling point only 20 degrees above absolute zero, so =
liquefaction is expensive, both in inception and maintenance, but =
cryogenics can be used with other techniques.  A greater amount of =
hydrogen can be stored in certain hydrides at room temperature, than the =
same volume will store as liquid hydrogen. There are at least four types =
of hydrides: ionic hydrides such as alkali metal hydrides (LiH, NaH); =
covalent hydrides such as methane CH4; transition metal hydrides such as =
those by exothermic absorption through interstitial hydrogen expansion =
of the crystalline lattice of metals like palladium and titanium; and =
finally, complex hydrides such as lithium  or sodium borohydrides =
(NaBH4). These can even be combined with other structures to provide =
capillary hydriding, such as with certain zeolites.

Hydrides form through an exothermic process, therefore the stored =
hydrogen can only be released by adding heat, a big drawback, plus =
hydrides are too heavy and too expensive. Carbon, in contrast, can store =
hydrogen in many ways and only costs pennies per pound before =
processing. Carbon forms covalent compounds such as methanol or =
gasoline, a mixture of many covalent molecules. The main problem with =
the covalent type of hydrogen storage is that, like hydriding, it takes =
a great deal of heat to release the hydrogen, even when catalytically =
enhanced.

But carbon is the most versatile element that we know of. Carbon can be =
made into fibers that are ten times stronger than steel, and =
carbon-fiber reinforced tanks can store hydrogen at 5000 psi, and at the =
same time withstand the blast of a stick of dynamite (this has been =
proven BTW). Even so, high pressure storage is too fraught with risk =
over the long term to be used on a large scale.

Fortunately there are several types of carbon (graphite) that provide =
capillary storage of hydrogen. Often called activated carbon, this type =
of storage shows great promise due to very high surface areas of more =
than 30,000,000 cm^2/gram, which provide a specific capacity of about =
two and a half times more hydrogen than the same volume of compressed =
gas at 3,000 psi. The graphite form of carbon also does not comminute =
(degrade to a fine powder) which has been a problem with some activated =
carbons.

Therefore, carbon in the form of graphite nanofibers or nanoplatelets is =
at the cutting edge of H2 storage. Announcements have been made by Baker =
and Rodriquez concerning their patented oriented carbon with a projected =
capacity of 30 liters of hydrogen per gram of carbon. This new type of =
densification of hydrogen is based on the optimization of capillary =
action in which layers of hydrogen condense between carbon crystal =
platelets. Electron interactions allow the hydrogen to condense in =
several layers within the subnanometer gaps between carbon layers. This =
process does require pressurization, but it is about a tenth the =
pressure that is used in the mass-production high pressure tanks that =
are currently on the road: 500 psi vs 5000 psi.

Hydrogen shrinks from an effective gas diameter of a quarter nanometer =
to about an eighth nanometer (8 times smaller by volume) while under the =
influence of capillary forces. The Baker-Rodriquez  manufacturing =
process is reportedly not overly expensive, like fullerenes.  If the =
proprietary process can scale-up efficiently, and their calculations are =
representative of commercial production of the nanofibers, it may be =
possible to manufacture a storage system with more than 50% weight yield =
of hydrogen. This compares to hydrides that are at most 12% hydrogen, =
and which must be heated to release the hydrogen. The nanofiber system =
requires no added heat for release. The Baker-Rodriquez  disclosures are =
not without controversy however. There is a great deal of money riding =
on the outcome of these proprietary issue, and it would be unwise to =
speculate on who, or whose legal team, will come out on top.

Nevertheless, it is clear that exciting discoveries are pacing the =
development of much denser and cost effective hydrogen storage systems - =
but unfortunately, by far the best systems that have been publicized are =
proprietary, and shall we say, "jealously" so.=20

But eventually, and hopefully in the near term, H2 storage cylinders =
will be manufactured from carbon fibers and filled with graphite =
nanoplatelets which will provide hydrogen with equal volumetric storage =
densities to gasoline at modest pressures (500 psi) with great corrosion =
resistance, durability, and safety at a cost that is not cheap, but not =
excessive- maybe an extra $500 to the cost of the automobile. It could =
open up the age of "Home-Hydrogen" where every house has the ability to =
be its own H2 filing station and perhaps its own power station, as well.

If not home-hydrogen, then the present natural gas infrastructure can be =
utilized for safe storage and transportation of hydrogen. Natural gas =
formations have been found suitable for storing hydrogen for millions of =
years. Natural gas and H2 can even be mixed and co-transported. Existing =
natural gas and electricity grids are then able to provide "sunk cost" =
convenient transmission of a *locally produced* transportation fuel, and =
that in turn will allow the USA to be convert from being a =
"wealth-depletion" economy, dependent on oil from people and cultures =
that hate us, to become instead a "wealth-expansion" economy, based on =
self-reliance and self-sufficiency.=20

Remember those nostalgic (for some) days of the late '60s when we =
produced all the fuel that we needed at 35 cents a gallon, put men on =
the moon, sent poor kids to college for free, and were the economic envy =
of every other country on earth? OK, no flames - I know we also had the =
Vietnam war, the Kennedy assassination, social injustice, and many =
problems that we have partially fixed since then, but what we didn't =
have then were $500 billion trade deficits due to imported oil.=20

The economic glory days could happen for this country once again, but it =
may only happen if and when we can approach some degree of energy =
self-sufficiency...and refrain from war just to secure the right to =
latter pay big bucks for the oil - and pay it straight to the same folks =
that we just spent even bigger bucks on,  just to "liberate"...As Aretha =
bemoans, "Who's Zoomin' Who?"

Jones

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hydrogen is 14 times lighter than air; therefore&nbsp;H2 storage is =
all=20
about densification. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The approaches for densification that have been tried include =
brute-force=20
pressurization, liquefaction, adsorption - including capillary =
absorption and=20
hydriding, cryogenic solidification, chemical compounding, etc. But if =
you want=20
an executive summary of this subject: the future of hydrogen storage=20
is&nbsp;reduced to two&nbsp;words: *capillary carbon*.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Several proprietary approaches that are entering the prototype =
stage now=20
will provide hydrogen with near-equal volumetric storage density to =
gasoline,=20
and&nbsp;at modest pressures, and&nbsp;needing no heat to release the =
hydrogen,=20
as with hydrides.. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hydrogen is smaller than any other atom, even in the diatomic =
molecular=20
state, with a boiling point only 20 degrees above absolute zero, so =
liquefaction=20
is expensive, both in inception and maintenance, but cryogenics can be =
used with=20
other techniques.&nbsp; A greater amount of hydrogen can be stored in =
certain=20
hydrides at room temperature, than&nbsp;the same volume will store as =
liquid=20
hydrogen. There are at least four types of hydrides: ionic hydrides such =
as=20
alkali metal hydrides (LiH, NaH); covalent hydrides such as methane CH4; =

transition metal hydrides such as those by exothermic absorption through =

interstitial hydrogen expansion of the crystalline lattice of metals =
like=20
palladium and titanium; and finally, complex hydrides such as =
lithium&nbsp; or=20
sodium borohydrides (NaBH4). These can even be combined with other =
structures to=20
provide capillary hydriding, such as with certain zeolites.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Hydrides form through an exothermic process, therefore&nbsp;the =
stored=20
hydrogen can only be released by adding heat, a big drawback,&nbsp;plus =
hydrides=20
are too heavy and too expensive. Carbon, in contrast,&nbsp;can store =
hydrogen in=20
many ways and only costs pennies per pound before processing. Carbon =
forms=20
covalent compounds such as methanol or gasoline, a mixture of many =
covalent=20
molecules. The main problem with the covalent type of hydrogen storage =
is that,=20
like hydriding,&nbsp;it takes a&nbsp;great deal of heat to release the =
hydrogen,=20
even when catalytically enhanced.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>But carbon is the most versatile element that we know of. =
Carbon can be=20
made into fibers that are ten times stronger than steel, and =
carbon-fiber=20
reinforced tanks can store hydrogen at 5000 psi, and at the same time =
withstand=20
the blast of a stick of dynamite (this has been proven BTW). Even so, =
high=20
pressure storage is too fraught with risk over the long term to be used =
on a=20
large scale.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Fortunately there are several types of carbon (graphite) that =
provide=20
capillary storage of hydrogen.&nbsp;Often called activated carbon, this =
type of=20
storage shows great promise due to very high surface areas&nbsp;of more =
than=20
30,000,000 cm^2/gram, which provide a specific capacity of&nbsp;about =
two and a=20
half&nbsp;times more hydrogen than the same volume of compressed gas at =
3,000=20
psi. The graphite form of carbon also&nbsp;does not comminute (degrade =
to a fine=20
powder) which has been a problem with some activated carbons.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Therefore, carbon in the form of graphite nanofibers or =
nanoplatelets=20
is at the cutting edge of H2 storage. Announcements have been made by =
Baker and=20
Rodriquez concerning their patented oriented carbon with a projected =
capacity of=20
30 liters of hydrogen per gram of carbon. This new type of densification =
of=20
hydrogen is based on the optimization of capillary action in which =
layers of=20
hydrogen condense between carbon crystal platelets. Electron =
interactions allow=20
the hydrogen to condense in several layers within the subnanometer gaps =
between=20
carbon layers. This process does require pressurization, but it is about =
a tenth=20
the pressure that is used in the mass-production high pressure tanks =
that are=20
currently on the road: 500 psi vs 5000 psi.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Hydrogen shrinks from an effective gas diameter&nbsp;of a=20
quarter&nbsp;nanometer to about an eighth nanometer (8 times smaller by =
volume)=20
while under the influence of capillary forces. The Baker-Rodriquez&nbsp; =

manufacturing process is reportedly not overly expensive, like =
fullerenes.&nbsp;=20
If the proprietary process can scale-up efficiently, and their =
calculations are=20
representative of commercial production of the nanofibers, it may be =
possible to=20
manufacture a storage system with more than 50% weight yield of =
hydrogen. This=20
compares to hydrides that&nbsp;are at most&nbsp;12% hydrogen, and which =
must be=20
heated to release the hydrogen. The nanofiber system requires no added =
heat for=20
release. The Baker-Rodriquez&nbsp; disclosures are not without =
controversy=20
however. There is a great deal of money riding on the outcome of these=20
proprietary issue, and it would be unwise to speculate on who, or whose =
legal=20
team,&nbsp;will come out on top.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Nevertheless, it is clear that exciting discoveries are pacing =
the=20
development of much denser and cost effective hydrogen storage systems - =
but=20
unfortunately, by far the best systems that have been =
publicized&nbsp;are=20
proprietary, and shall we say, "jealously" so. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But eventually, and hopefully in the near term, H2 storage =
cylinders will=20
be&nbsp;manufactured from carbon fibers and filled with graphite =
nanoplatelets=20
which will provide hydrogen with equal volumetric storage densities to =
gasoline=20
at modest pressures (500 psi) with great corrosion resistance, =
durability, and=20
safety at a cost that is not cheap, but not excessive- maybe an extra =
$500 to=20
the cost of the automobile. It could open up the age of "Home-Hydrogen" =
where=20
every house has the ability to be its own H2&nbsp;filing station and =
perhaps its=20
own power station, as well.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>If not home-hydrogen, then the present natural gas =
infrastructure can=20
be utilized for safe storage and transportation of hydrogen. Natural gas =

formations have been found suitable for storing hydrogen for millions of =
years.=20
Natural gas and H2 can even be mixed and co-transported. Existing =
natural gas=20
and electricity grids are then able to provide "sunk cost" convenient=20
transmission of a *locally produced* transportation fuel, and&nbsp;that =
in turn=20
will allow the USA to be convert from being a "wealth-depletion" =
economy,=20
dependent on oil from people and cultures that hate us, to become =
instead a=20
"wealth-expansion" economy, based on self-reliance and self-sufficiency. =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Remember those nostalgic (for some) days&nbsp;of the late '60s when =
we=20
produced all the fuel that we needed at 35 cents a gallon, put men on =
the moon,=20
sent poor kids to college for free, and were the economic envy of every =
other=20
country on earth? OK, no flames - I know we also had the Vietnam war, =
the=20
Kennedy assassination, social injustice, and many problems that we have=20
partially fixed since then, but what we didn't have then were $500 =
billion trade=20
deficits due to imported oil. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The economic glory days could happen for this country once again, =
but it=20
may only happen if and when we can approach some degree of energy=20
self-sufficiency...and refrain from war just to secure the right to =
latter pay=20
big bucks for the oil&nbsp;- and pay it straight to the same =
folks&nbsp;that we=20
just spent even bigger bucks on, &nbsp;just to "liberate"...As Aretha =
bemoans,=20
"Who's Zoomin' Who?"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:11:10 EST
Subject: Re: We must follow Tesla's directions. We have no choice
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, sbishopa@sfu.ca
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In a message dated 2/25/03 12:51:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bishop triumf.ca writes:


> Higher symmetry em models have been developed for particle physics, 
> proven both theoretically and experimentally, since 1957.  That's 45 
> years -- nearly half a century.  We are speaking of the scientific 
> community would just allow the sharp young grad students and post 
> doctoral scientists to work on that problem, in about two or three years 
> there would never again be an electrical engineering departments, 
> professors, and textbooks.
> 

                 REPLY   There is one problem with that thinking and that 
could only happen if from day one. They were taught total creative thinking 
and free thought. Instead of conformity as they are now. Because the 
inventive mind is the only one that has the abilities to create, not the 
theory only driven mind. 

When they were children they were creative then they went to school and by 
the age of 7, that aspect was programed out of 95% of them. For a reason it 
is called control. Some did not let themselves be programed because they 
understood what was being attempted. 

And your speaking with one of them right now. Who is not scientific in 
nature. But can rip off scientific types heads and hand them back to them. 
And have done so. To boys probably farther up the food chain than you. But 
may not be as knowledgeable as you are.

 Theory driven experiments does not provide the correct answers because 
theory is flawed because that thinking process is confined to a 3 D world 
only. There are many different dimensions totally light years beyond our 
current understandings and each has a common thread. If you can think far 
beyond 3 D and totally beyond current known math. 

Then and only then you can create otherwise you will not be able to. You can 
take that as absolute as many think there theories are. But they are sadly 
mistaken because they are only half the equation of knowledge and Shawn they 
are the least important half.  The correct procedure is not to consider them 
first but last only after the invention is created not before as it now. 
WHICH MEANS THAT THINKING IS TOTALLY BACKWARDS  

Because I can provide visual not theory driven demos that prove new science 
fiction level futuristic evolutionary theories. CAN YOU?  Do not attempt to 
play with me until you can. Because I will have your lunch for you and do not 
think I will not. That is a challenge So the next step is call so I can make 
that prediction come true. Play time is over with. Have you got the guts. AS 
with most of your types I do not believe so.          




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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/25/0=
3 12:51:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, bishop triumf.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Higher symmetry em models have=20=
been developed for particle physics, <BR>
proven both theoretically and experimentally, since 1957.&nbsp; That's 45 <B=
R>
years -- nearly half a century.&nbsp; We are speaking of the scientific <BR>
community would just allow the sharp young grad students and post <BR>
doctoral scientists to work on that problem, in about two or three years <BR=
>
there would never again be an electrical engineering departments, <BR>
professors, and textbooks.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPL=
Y&nbsp;&nbsp; There is one problem with that thinking and that could only ha=
ppen if from day one. They were taught total creative thinking and free thou=
ght. Instead of conformity as they are now. Because the inventive mind is th=
e only one that has the abilities to create, not the theory only driven mind=
. <BR>
<BR>
When they were children they were creative then they went to school and by t=
he age of 7, that aspect was programed out of 95% of them. For a reason it i=
s called control. Some did not let themselves be programed because they unde=
rstood what was being attempted. <BR>
<BR>
And your speaking with one of them right now. Who is not scientific in natur=
e. But can rip off scientific types heads and hand them back to them. And ha=
ve done so. To boys probably farther up the food chain than you. But may not=
 be as knowledgeable as you are.<BR>
<BR>
 Theory driven experiments does not provide the correct answers because theo=
ry is flawed because that thinking process is confined to a 3 D world only.=20=
There are many different dimensions totally light years beyond our current u=
nderstandings and each has a common thread. If you can think far beyond 3 D=20=
and totally beyond current known math. <BR>
<BR>
Then and only then you can create otherwise you will not be able to. You can=
 take that as absolute as many think there theories are. But they are sadly=20=
mistaken because they are only half the equation of knowledge and Shawn they=
 are the least important half.&nbsp; The correct procedure is not to conside=
r them first but last only after the invention is created not before as it n=
ow. WHICH MEANS THAT THINKING IS TOTALLY BACKWARDS&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Because I can provide visual not theory driven demos that prove new science=20=
fiction level futuristic evolutionary theories. CAN YOU?&nbsp; Do not attemp=
t to play with me until you can. Because I will have your lunch for you and=20=
do not think I will not. That is a challenge So the next step is call so I c=
an make that prediction come true. Play time is over with. Have you got the=20=
guts. AS with most of your types I do not believe so.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 11:45:40 2003
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From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:41:00 +0200
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Horace,

It is true that article is not well written, or detailed. I think the point is if special relativity is not correct or  could be some deviation,
it may possible to obtain results which verify this argument. Interpreting these results within SR may not be suitable. 

Without being restricted to SR lets try to describe mass. More precisely,
how objects carry mass we think are behaving. First, "rest mass" is an macroscopic approximation I think. we dont know the structure of proton and electron, therefore we dont know how the rest mass is constituted in fundamental particles. By experiment we know energy-mass equility is holding but observations are limited by the precision of measurement so it would be better to say experiments gives an "upper limit" for a deviation from special relativity. If you consider many gravitational anomalies observed so far, including Nicholas Reiter's shaken choral materials. Most of these anomalies violate GR and may also SR.

I also consider photons have some properties which have not covered by Maxwell Equations, where non-linearities occurs as wavelength is shortened or energy density of a photon beam is increased.  

Of course additional momentum observation does not automatically point to rest mass of photon. As this would violated SR, one should need a valid theory to model what will this additional momentum would correspond. For example according some theories, an instant gravitational interaction would occurs in measurable level.  


Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 8:35 AM 2/23/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:51:50 -0900:
> >Hi,
> >[snip]
> >>No "additional" momentum must be carried by the photon for the photon to
> >>have and/or carry mass and yet have rest mass zero
> >[snip]
> >What they are trying to determine is whether or not it has a rest mass of zero.
> 
> Photons do not have an "apparent" rest mass of zero if relativity is
> correct.  The momentum of the photon affects the velocity of the target.
> The velocity of the target changes and thus its mass changes.  That mass
> corresponds exactly to the energy of the photon.  This mass can not be
> measured by the experiment, however, beause there is no "additional"
> momentum associated with it.
> 
> The article specifically says:
> 
> >if light had mass, the rotating balance would
> >suffer an additional tiny torque.
> 
> This is false.  The photon can have zero apparent "rest mass" by this
> definition, yet still have mass in all respects, i.e. carry mass from one
> body to another, be affected by gravitational fields, in all ways exhibit
> mass, but NOT carry any "additional" momentum (beyond the Plank momentum p
> = h/lambda) at all.  The experiment does not measure the mass exchanged,
> only the momentum transfer.
> 
> One problem with what I am saying is possibly that the mass exchanged
> depends on the observer's reference frame.  If an object travelling toward
> another object exchanges a photon, then negative mass is exchanged between
> the photon and each of the two objects.  The photon would then reduce the
> net mass of the universe.  If two objects are travelling toward each other
> at velocity v and after the exchange are travelling away from each other
> (at relative velocity at -v), then zero mass is exchanged by the photon.
> This may be a problem in my thinking about photon mass.  The mass exchanged
> depends on the reference frame of the observer.  I would point out, though,
> that negative mass exchange results in corrsponding negative energy
> exchange, so E/m is still c for the universe, if I see this correctly.  It
> is merely the universe totals that depend on reference frame.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 11:58:31 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen storage for Home-Hydrogen
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Therefore, carbon in the form of graphite nanofibers or nanoplatelets is 
>at the cutting edge of H2 storage. Announcements have been made by Baker 
>and Rodriquez concerning their patented oriented carbon with a projected 
>capacity of 30 liters of hydrogen per gram of carbon.

That's nifty! It would have applications beyond fuel cells. It is a shame 
these things are tied up by patent disputes.

Another approach has been noted here previously: using a liquid or powder 
chemical hydride. For small devices such as cell phones, researchers are 
developing chemicals similar to window washing fluid. For automobiles, 
Chrysler is working on sodium borohydride powder fuel, which is 
nonflammable and nontoxic. However, I expect the energy overhead for these 
chemicals is high compared to carbon storage or compressed hydrogen.

To store gigantic amounts of hydrogen, say, enough to run Los Angeles for 
six months, one good approach is to pump it into depleted natural gas 
fields. This is done in France. In the distant future, the U.S. may supply 
Japan with hydrogen generated from wind power in the Dakotas or Alaska. 
During windy seasons excess production may be pumped underground.

- Jed


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  BILL    That is all fine and good if you can afford a server as probably 
Newman can. But I have not shown an ego as Newman does nor have I said I was 
messenger from God as Newman does. Please that is a display of arrogance.  I 
have only shown new evolutionary knowledge  But  Because of our society's 
conformity only taught EDU. practices 

 We have lost our abilities to investigate possible new knowledge and think 
only what was programed into us is absolute. So because of that we reach 
conclusions without investigating. Only fools do that Smart people 
investigate before reaching conclusions. That is not generally the case and 
the reason why is WE made the glaring mistake of using our EDU. as an ending 
point instead of a starting point 98% of the time. By doing so we have 
totally limited ourselves to a point. Where all we will look at are the 
confines of our box.

Unless the answers are inside that box witch it appears they are not. Because 
our problems are not being solved by those in the box,  that is plain to see. 
Is it Not? Then they must be outside the box somewhere waiting to be found. 
Does that make common sense? It does to me can you justify why is does not to 
you.? If it does not  please do so because maybe I missed something that you 
can bring my attention.  Because no one knows it all and anyone that thinks 
they do is only fooling themselves.     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 12:22:39 2003
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In a message dated 2/25/03 11:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
billb eskimo.com writes:


> .  I myself have "therapist" leanings..


.    ALL the ones I went either gave up their practices and became nuns, 
monks or became alcoholics. Then they started 
> to call me for advice but I charge far more than they did. That is how you 
> create new business situations. Sitting around all day as many do on 
> vortex,  spouting theory in order to puff up there counter product Ego's. 
> Is not going to accomplish anything. The only situation that is going to 
> accomplish anything is by using there creative abilities we all once had 
> when we were children. But the vast majority have lost.        
> 
>   


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/25/0=
3 11:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, billb eskimo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">.&nbsp; I myself have "therapis=
t" leanings..</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><B=
R>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ALL the ones I went either gave up their practices and b=
ecame nuns, monks or became alcoholics. Then they started </FONT><FONT  COLO=
R=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">to call me for advice but I charge far more than they did.=20=
That is how you create new business situations. Sitting around all day as ma=
ny do on vortex,&nbsp; spouting theory in order to puff up there counter pro=
duct Ego's. Is not going to accomplish anything. The only situation that is=20=
going to accomplish anything is by using there creative abilities we all onc=
e had when we were children. But the vast majority have lost.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Every so often vortex-L attracts someone who attempts to dominate all the
threads and draw attention to their cause.  But remember, vortex-L has no
rules against this[1].  Every time it happens I ask the members if they
want me to install some extra rules.  In the past the concensus has leaned
towards freedom of acrimonius debate, plus occasional instances of the
Flamer Personality Disorder[2], rather than flame-free "excessive
civilization" run by constant Moderator control.

The solution has most recently been vortexB-L.  If people want to use
namecalling and similar dishonest tactics of deceptive persuasion, they
should take their threads off vortex-L.  The whole conversation can move
to vortexB-L.

Even better solution (used by Evan Soule and his threads about the Newman
Machine) is to go to groups.yahoo.com or other service and CREATE YOUR OWN
LISTSERVE.  That way everyone who wants to get hot and heavy about Energy
Machine XYZ can do so without complaints from those who only want to
receive occasional mail exclusively about LENR.

As with the last incident (Whirlpower,) I see no reason to act quickly.
If a thread is not wanted, then NOBODY will respond to the one promoting
it.  It's only when the vortex-L subscribers all stop talking to a noisy
offender that it's time to declare "energy machine XYZ" a temporarily
forbidden topic and limit it to vortexB-L.


[1] Rules at: http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html#rules

[2] "FPD" seems to be a variant of Borderline Personality Disorder:
Self-blind narcissistic people who "project" their own behavior onto
everyone around them, yet have no idea how blatently obvious their own
egoism has become.  I have a half-humorous article about this, but I
suspect that the disorder is all too real:

  Flamer Personality Disorder
  http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html

  Rebel Without a Clue (attacks contemporary authority, moderators)
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame75.html



Always be wary of psychoanalyzing your opponents lest you yourself become
one of the classic flamer types.  I myself have "therapist" leanings...

  FLAME WARRIORS: THE THERAPIST
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame25.html


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


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In a message dated 2/25/03 11:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
billb eskimo.com writes:


> That way everyone who wants to get hot and heavy about Energy
> Machine XYZ can do so without complaints from those who only want to
> receive occasional mail exclusively about LENR.
> 
>             Does he have a device that colleges have saw operational ? That 
when Manuf. and  if hooked to your imput power and intern operates a Gen.that 
 provides power to your house and causes a 75% reduction in your electrical 
cost to occur. If not who would want to waste their time listening to 
anything he has to say. Unless they are puffing up their ego's by doing so.  


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/25/0=
3 11:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, billb eskimo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">That way everyone who wants to=20=
get hot and heavy about Energy<BR>
Machine XYZ can do so without complaints from those who only want to<BR>
receive occasional mail exclusively about LENR.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; Does he have a device that colleges have saw operational ? That when Man=
uf. and&nbsp; if hooked to your imput power and intern operates a Gen.that&n=
bsp; provides power to your house and causes a 75% reduction in your electri=
cal cost to occur. If not who would want to waste their time listening to an=
ything he has to say. Unless they are puffing up their ego's by doing so.&nb=
sp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:07:39 EST
Subject: Re: Bad experiment?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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       Question  Has Horace performed the experiment??????    If not how can 
he comment about it. ??//   How can anybody comment about it without first 
hand knowledge?  Because it is an experiment not an issue that is contained 
in a book.  What I'm seeing makes no sense. Unless you have BTDT   CAN 
Someone please explain the ability to reach conclusions without 
investigating. We would all like to know the answer to that question. 

NOW there is a question for you that none of you can probably answer    BUT 
One of you has to have the answer for that because the vast majority have the 
answers for everything else under the Sun. It appears. But there is a glaring 
problem I think I have uncovered.  

You all have different answers to the same question. And all think there 
answer is the only correct answer.  May I ask where does that thinking come 
from?    WOULD it be to much to ask if you could get together and come up 
with one answer that is actually correct. ?   Because if you could that would 
solve a great many problems     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 14:24:46 2003
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:21:16 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
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At 8:30 AM 2/25/3, William Beaty wrote:
>Every so often vortex-L attracts someone who attempts to dominate all the
>threads and draw attention to their cause.  But remember, vortex-L has no
>rules against this[1].  Every time it happens I ask the members if they
>want me to install some extra rules.  In the past the concensus has leaned
>towards freedom of acrimonius debate, plus occasional instances of the
>Flamer Personality Disorder[2], rather than flame-free "excessive
>civilization" run by constant Moderator control.
>
>The solution has most recently been vortexB-L.  If people want to use
>namecalling and similar dishonest tactics of deceptive persuasion, they
>should take their threads off vortex-L.  The whole conversation can move
>to vortexB-L.

In my opinion the principle problem at this time is lack of enforcement of
existing rules.

Despite repeated requests to stop doing so, Jack Carey continues to violate
Rule #2 through disrespectful dialog (monolog?), name calling and other
forms of ad hominem attack, Rule #5 by cross posting (almost no one replies
to his posts here so he has to drag discussions from other groups here) and
Rule #6 by continually soliciting calls to himself, and deriding other for
not sending him large sums of money to purchase his wares.  In additon,
some of the private names he cross-posts to have asked him repeatedly to
stop and do not want any further communication from him.  Jack Cary refuses
to provide any meaningful information about his devices or experiments for
discussion purposes, requests private phjone calls for furthe rinformation,
and readily admits he is not capable of any scientific or mathematical
discussion.  His purpose here appears to consist of solely of marketing,
not serious or even casual scientific discussion since he readily states he
is incapable of such.

Vortex-L Rules:

1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
   making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
   cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
   would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
   moderator, address above.

2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and
   namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden.  The tone
   should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
   Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having
   some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave
   in disgust.  But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy"
   claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on
   board!  (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of debunkery,
   see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin)

3. Small email files please.  The limit is set to 40K right now, those
   exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty.  If you wish to
   start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange
   initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL
   IMMEDIATELY.  Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for
   received email.  Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John
   Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing.

4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the
   ENTIRE message in your reply.  Always edit it a bit and dele te
   something.  The more you delete, the less traffic overload.  The entire
   message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a
   message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point
   reply to many parts of a message.  Many vortex users must pay by the
   kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant
   messages are irritating and expensive.  So, when including a quoted
   message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.

5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC
   line of your messages to vortex-L.  In the past this has caused
   thread leakage between lists and redundant messages as replies from
   subscribers go to both lists.  It's OK to manually forward mail from
   other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line has only
   vortex-L and no other list.

6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated.  While not illegal
   yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the
   Unwritten Rules of the Internet.  Anyone who spams vortex-L with junkmail
   will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team.  ;)
   Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is acceptable."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 14:37:44 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:53:02 -0500
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Hey Everyone.

I just took a quick trip through the archives, and
I present for your edification and amusement, my
Jack Carey Cutup. ( Apologies to William S Burroughs )

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

"I presented new forms of propulsion that do not exist."

"I was able to make myself a millionaire business man by being an ignoramus
and
that is all that counts. PLUS I have been able to create the Bus. side to go
with the Tech; side. When no one else could. Not bad for being semiliterate.
Where the f--k do you get off anyway with you as-hole attitude .?"

"New situations produce heavy industrial work with power draw factors that
are
a fraction of current requirements. I have presented situations and all I
have received in return is stone wall in the box thinking. Witch amounts to
judgmental no investigative arrogant attitudes. Your EDU systems have
created
that situation when they programed out your investigative abilities you
possessed when your were children"

"Then I will blow holes in the sides of their boats and watch them with glee
in my eyes . While I'm  throwing the party of the century sink below the
waves in  the cold dark foreboding sea of ignorance. Clinging to their
theory
books and listening to them spout it until they  become water logged and
support them no longer ."

I'm sorry but I become bored very easily and I have to have fun at someone's
expense  Your elected"

"Well, let tell you who I am   I have the biggest technology hammer in
probably in recorded history that I will  use if necessary if I'm forced to
and your causing that to happen. To make the positive changes on this planet
with you or without you that we all have a responsibility to make for those
who follow us. You are forcing me to make fools out of you as I have all
ready done to many. You need to wake up but I care less what you do."

 "I do not need the SCI comm for anything because I go can go right around
them. Your forefathers would have never progressed if they would have had
your attitudes. Hal Fox told of us a prophecy that has circulated among many
scientists, that is one who is not one of them will cause many new
evolutionary changes to occur. Is this the full filling of that prophecy who
knows.?"

 "I understand   Many are filtering me out and will not deal with me in
regard to the new different technology situations I have presented.     So
When we start our  CO> soon the computer genius will create E mail programs
that will describe our company technology concepts."

"Those programs will pump these one sided thinking judgmental no
investigating
situations like vortex full of mails. That is called creative thinking most
of you were not taught that. The majority were only taught conformity. And
have never had an original idea in there life because of it. How do you like
that one? I know how to win   Now you know how I can destroy peoples little
know it all worlds that they have lock themselves into."

"To save you a great deal of time and money if you were
going to pursue it,  that was called a good faith jester. Millions of
dollars
of free infomation  We saw no good faith jester in return from GM"

"  You will be rewarded in a business sense for you investigative actions.
The
rest will be left out in the cold as far the new knowledge goes. But they
will enjoy the new products the knowledge creates. Science always has
thought
nothing could change unless they approved. That was a road block that a way
was figured out how to get around. It is called making business deals. . ."

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"

"Call me 810 618 9234"
"Call me 810 618 9234"
"Call me 810 618 9234"
"Call me 810 618 9234"
"Call me 810 618 9234"
"Call me 810 618 9234"
"Call me 810 618 9234"
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:21 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.


At 8:30 AM 2/25/3, William Beaty wrote:
>Every so often vortex-L attracts someone who attempts to dominate all the
>threads and draw attention to their cause.  But remember, vortex-L has no
>rules against this[1].  Every time it happens I ask the members if they
>want me to install some extra rules.  In the past the concensus has leaned
>towards freedom of acrimonius debate, plus occasional instances of the
>Flamer Personality Disorder[2], rather than flame-free "excessive
>civilization" run by constant Moderator control.
>
>The solution has most recently been vortexB-L.  If people want to use
>namecalling and similar dishonest tactics of deceptive persuasion, they
>should take their threads off vortex-L.  The whole conversation can move
>to vortexB-L.

In my opinion the principle problem at this time is lack of enforcement of
existing rules.

Despite repeated requests to stop doing so, Jack Carey continues to violate
Rule #2 through disrespectful dialog (monolog?), name calling and other
forms of ad hominem attack, Rule #5 by cross posting (almost no one replies
to his posts here so he has to drag discussions from other groups here) and
Rule #6 by continually soliciting calls to himself, and deriding other for
not sending him large sums of money to purchase his wares.  In additon,
some of the private names he cross-posts to have asked him repeatedly to
stop and do not want any further communication from him.  Jack Cary refuses
to provide any meaningful information about his devices or experiments for
discussion purposes, requests private phjone calls for furthe rinformation,
and readily admits he is not capable of any scientific or mathematical
discussion.  His purpose here appears to consist of solely of marketing,
not serious or even casual scientific discussion since he readily states he
is incapable of such.

Vortex-L Rules:

1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
   making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
   cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
   would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
   moderator, address above.

2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and
   namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden.  The tone
   should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
   Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having
   some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave
   in disgust.  But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy"
   claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on
   board!  (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of debunkery,
   see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin)

3. Small email files please.  The limit is set to 40K right now, those
   exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty.  If you wish to
   start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange
   initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL
   IMMEDIATELY.  Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for
   received email.  Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John
   Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing.

4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the
   ENTIRE message in your reply.  Always edit it a bit and dele te
   something.  The more you delete, the less traffic overload.  The entire
   message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a
   message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point
   reply to many parts of a message.  Many vortex users must pay by the
   kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant
   messages are irritating and expensive.  So, when including a quoted
   message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.

5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC
   line of your messages to vortex-L.  In the past this has caused
   thread leakage between lists and redundant messages as replies from
   subscribers go to both lists.  It's OK to manually forward mail from
   other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line has only
   vortex-L and no other list.

6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated.  While not illegal
   yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the
   Unwritten Rules of the Internet.  Anyone who spams vortex-L with junkmail
   will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team.  ;)
   Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is
acceptable."

Regards,

Horace Heffner


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 14:38:30 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: STOP AND THINK FOR ONCE Why hydrogen will not work. ????
Cc: tcrampto mcc.edu, droach@mcc.edu, ddoherty@kettering.edu,
        john.boerger cbcf-net.com, carlton.speck@delphiauto.com,
        richard.brekus bmwna.com, fuchs@ttc-usa.com, hermance@ttc-usa.com,
        pford ford.com, aleshan@ford.com, jcaste22@ford.com,
        etimes teleport.com, director@faraday.ru, geford@ucdavis.edu,
        e.kramer earthlink.net, ted.loder@unh.edu, iri@erols.com,
        editor infinite-energy.com, pberardelli@upi.com,
        onlinenews newscientist.com, jim.lewis@mail.house.gov,
        gtassist sciam.com, TrusteeOne@aol.com, Eardd@aol.com,
        davdart texas.net, adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch,
        albertwiedemann mchm.siemens.de,
        patrickcadore sterlingpublications.com, energy.globe@esv.or.at,
        eljarpo alphalink.com.au, fischer@ocr.miot.edu, pfain@ucsusa.org,
        thoren70 hotmail.com, letters@time.com
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Jim Carey,

Please stop cross posting.  This is a violation of the vortex-l rules.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 14:50:55 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <4b.2b500deb.2b8d4caa aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:48:10 EST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen storage for Home-Hydrogen
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In a message dated 2/25/03 2:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:


> To store gigantic amounts of hydrogen, say, enough to run Los Angeles for 
> six months, one good approach is to pump it into depleted natural gas 
> fields. This is done in France. In the distant future, the U.S. may supply 
> Japan with hydrogen generated from wind power in the Dakotas or Alaska. 
> During windy seasons excess production may be pumped underground.
> 
> - Jed        Question For JED    What if There was a major earthquake in 
> Calif. Because we all know they are prone to having   Them  Correct?????   
> And that Hydrogen exploded  Would there then be a new shore line for the 
> Pacific  along the  state line of Nevada?

     Jed I still have a device for you where is the 10,000 you offered ?? You 
offered me on the phone   20,000 for the 
> lighter that functioned with only water instead of Butane. But it is not for 
> sale. But a device is that proves the first new Electrical theory in a 
> century is  so it should be worth 25,000  
> 
> 
> 


--part1_4b.2b500deb.2b8d4caa_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/25/0=
3 2:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">To store gigantic amounts of hy=
drogen, say, enough to run Los Angeles for <BR>
six months, one good approach is to pump it into depleted natural gas <BR>
fields. This is done in France. In the distant future, the U.S. may supply <=
BR>
Japan with hydrogen generated from wind power in the Dakotas or Alaska. <BR>
During windy seasons excess production may be pumped underground.<BR>
<BR>
- Jed&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Question For JED&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; What if There was a major earthquake in Calif. Because we all know th=
ey are prone to having&nbsp;&nbsp; Them&nbsp; Correct?????&nbsp;&nbsp; And t=
hat Hydrogen exploded&nbsp; Would there then be a new shore line for the Pac=
ific&nbsp; along the&nbsp; state line of Nevada?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000=
00" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jed=
 I still have a device for you where is the 10,000 you offered ?? You offere=
d me on the phone&nbsp;&nbsp; 20,000 for the </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=
 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">lighter that functioned with only water instead of Butane.=20=
But it is not for sale. But a device is that proves the first new Electrical=
 theory in a century is&nbsp; so it should be worth 25,000&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_4b.2b500deb.2b8d4caa_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 15:05:54 2003
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Message-ID: <006401c2dd22$3fe82440$6501a8c0 Home>
Reply-To: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
From: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v01530500ba8198522d3d [12.21.211.137]>
Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:03:02 -0700
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Well Jack .. I never thought I would defend you .. BUT .. In your last few emails, you have toned down your attacks and improved
your grammar.  I was on the verge of putting you in my kill folder.  However; "IF" you can obey the "OTHER" rules, and post no more
than 3 or 4 posts per day .. I will keep you visible.  Freedom of speech is very important to me --- HOWEVER; IT MUST BE USED in a
CIVIL MANNER to be effective.
..DonW..


----- Original Message -----
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.


|
| In my opinion the principle problem at this time is lack of enforcement of
| existing rules.
|
| Despite repeated requests to stop doing so, Jack Carey continues to violate
| Rule #2 through disrespectful dialog (monolog?), name calling and other
| forms of ad hominem attack, Rule #5 by cross posting (almost no one replies
| to his posts here so he has to drag discussions from other groups here) and
| Rule #6 by continually soliciting calls to himself, and deriding other for
| not sending him large sums of money to purchase his wares.  In additon,
| some of the private names he cross-posts to have asked him repeatedly to
| stop and do not want any further communication from him.  Jack Cary refuses
| to provide any meaningful information about his devices or experiments for
| discussion purposes, requests private phjone calls for furthe rinformation,
| and readily admits he is not capable of any scientific or mathematical
| discussion.  His purpose here appears to consist of solely of marketing,
| not serious or even casual scientific discussion since he readily states he
| is incapable of such.
| |
| Regards,
| Horace Heffner
|
|
|

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 15:59:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <95.2a92689f.2b8d5c6a aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:55:22 EST
Subject: Nagle  what do you do anyway
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            Besides act like a M----n 

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Return-path: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Full-name: JCarey9622
Message-ID: <188.15dd37e8.2b8d5ad5 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:48:37 EST
Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
To: knagel gis.net
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   Nagel  Your making me famous  and  smarts are not required to figure out 
ways to make money just common sense witch is something you do not appear to  
have   

--part1_95.2a92689f.2b8d5c6a_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 08:35:05 2003
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
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Every so often vortex-L attracts someone who attempts to dominate all the
threads and draw attention to their cause.  But remember, vortex-L has no
rules against this[1].  Every time it happens I ask the members if they
want me to install some extra rules.  In the past the concensus has leaned
towards freedom of acrimonius debate, plus occasional instances of the
Flamer Personality Disorder[2], rather than flame-free "excessive
civilization" run by constant Moderator control.

The solution has most recently been vortexB-L.  If people want to use
namecalling and similar dishonest tactics of deceptive persuasion, they
should take their threads off vortex-L.  The whole conversation can move
to vortexB-L.

Even better solution (used by Evan Soule and his threads about the Newman
Machine) is to go to groups.yahoo.com or other service and CREATE YOUR OWN
LISTSERVE.  That way everyone who wants to get hot and heavy about Energy
Machine XYZ can do so without complaints from those who only want to
receive occasional mail exclusively about LENR.

As with the last incident (Whirlpower,) I see no reason to act quickly.
If a thread is not wanted, then NOBODY will respond to the one promoting
it.  It's only when the vortex-L subscribers all stop talking to a noisy
offender that it's time to declare "energy machine XYZ" a temporarily
forbidden topic and limit it to vortexB-L.


[1] Rules at: http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html#rules

[2] "FPD" seems to be a variant of Borderline Personality Disorder:
Self-blind narcissistic people who "project" their own behavior onto
everyone around them, yet have no idea how blatently obvious their own
egoism has become.  I have a half-humorous article about this, but I
suspect that the disorder is all too real:

  Flamer Personality Disorder
  http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html

  Rebel Without a Clue (attacks contemporary authority, moderators)
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame75.html



Always be wary of psychoanalyzing your opponents lest you yourself become
one of the classic flamer types.  I myself have "therapist" leanings...

  FLAME WARRIORS: THE THERAPIST
  http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame25.html


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 17:12:37 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1ee.2f21024.2b8d6de7 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:09:59 EST
Subject: DON I'm fighting with ever fiber in my being possibly the biggest  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, dwiegel@attbi.com
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In a message dated 2/25/03 6:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dwiegel attbi.com writes:


      Uphill Battle in recorded history. By being a real fool for attempting 
something of that magnetude, with inadequate writing skills. In order to 
possibly change the thinking dynamics of a civilization.  That basically does 
not function as they are now because of the closed and narrow minded, no 
investigative attitudes they have. Our forefathers look for solutions We 
basically do not. 

Because of now basically worthless EDU. System that doesn't teach the correct 
way. Which would be a creative thinking and a free thought process. No, that 
would possibly make sense. Instead they preach conformity which makes zero 
sense.   BUT the fact is if someone does not put it on the line and  stand up 
for those that follow us  

The civilization will not survive past 2150 when there will be 19 billion of 
us.  Now for possibly the first time in history with the advent of a 
combination of new clean evolutionary power conversion, propulsion, medical, 
computer and vast cost effective problem solving environmental technologies 

We possibly have a glimmer of hope that may enable us if we all work together 
as one. To create the positive changes on this planet that are necessary.   
If that process requires the dismantling our current basically in the box 
scientific community and the creation of a new, that actually functions so be 
it. They have been given a chance to be involved in those changes.  I do not 
care either  way what they do, because we do not need them as they think we 
do    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 19:54:31 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1aa.1136fa0d.2b8d93b4 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:51:16 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Do we want to kick Carey out?
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 20:41:44 2003
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Reply-To: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
From: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: DON I'm fighting with ever fiber in my being possibly the biggest  
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:39:35 -0700
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <dwiegel@attbi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: DON I'm fighting with ever fiber in my being possibly the biggest 


| In a message dated 2/25/03 6:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
| dwiegel attbi.com writes:

>>> NOTE: I didn't write this!
| 
|       Uphill Battle in recorded history. By being a real fool for attempting 
| something of that magnetude, with inadequate writing skills. In order to 
| possibly change the thinking dynamics of a civilization.  That basically does 
| not function as they are now because of the closed and narrow minded, no 
| investigative attitudes they have. Our forefathers look for solutions We 
| basically do not. 

>>> As you-all can see .. Jack's writing skills have improved .. It's simply a matter of EFFORT!
None of the personalities on this list have narrow or closed minds .. OR THEY  wouldn't be on
this list.  Just like our forefathers .. We also look for solutions .. The World is not;
Never has been "BLACK & WHITE".  You have "PEOPLE" from this list willing to test
your devices .. That's not closed or narrow minded.

| 
| Because of now basically worthless EDU. System that doesn't teach the correct 
| way. Which would be a creative thinking and a free thought process. No, that 
| would possibly make sense. Instead they preach conformity which makes zero 
| sense.   BUT the fact is if someone does not put it on the line and  stand up 
| for those that follow us  

>>> Yes the Education system has problems .. But for the most part it works.
The "REAL" problem is at "HOME". That is where the TRUE VALUES are learned.
I have a child in the 10th grade .. So I'm "Walking the Walk".  It's not easy - but
it's not suppose to be.

| 
| The civilization will not survive past 2150 when there will be 19 billion of 
| us.  Now for possibly the first time in history with the advent of a 
| combination of new clean evolutionary power conversion, propulsion, medical, 
| computer and vast cost effective problem solving environmental technologies 

>>> You've mentioned crystal balls in the past .. I guess you also have one.
People who live in glass houses .. Shouldn't throw rocks.

>>> I have fath that mankind will go to the brink --- Then pull back -- And survive.
"NEW ENERGY" in its many forms will be used in the future.  It just takes time
to change the infrastructure.

| 
| We possibly have a glimmer of hope that may enable us if we all work together 
| as one. To create the positive changes on this planet that are necessary.   
| If that process requires the dismantling our current basically in the box 
| scientific community and the creation of a new, that actually functions so be 
| it. They have been given a chance to be involved in those changes.  I do not 
| care either  way what they do, because we do not need them as they think we 
| do    

>>> You are wrong .. We "NEED" Everybody .. Everybody has their place.

..DonW..

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 21:39:58 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <a5.35e4c052.2b8dac52 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:36:18 EST
Subject: Somebody 10,000 Mi Away in Hong Kong  that can see past their nose
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: e.kramer earthlink.net, ted.loder@unh.edu, carlto.speck@delphiauto.com,
        ddoherty kettering.edu, john.boerger@cbcf-net.com, premierww@qwest.net,
        sterlingda greterthings.com, thoren70@hotmail.com, mike@ucsofa.com,
        jhart aapspower.com, etimes@teleport.com, director@faraday.ru,
        patrickcadore sterlingpublications.com, richard.brekus@bmwna.com,
        fuchs ttc-usa.com, aleshan@for.com, marcraig@mindspring.com,
        n3716 hotmail.com, tcrampto@mcc.edu, droach@mcc.edu,
        editor infinite-energy.com, adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch,
        albert.widenmann mchm.siemens.de, iri@erols.com, vman@skylink.net,
        Puthoff aol.com, halfox@qwest.net, bsh@timelessvoyager.com,
        gtassist sciam.com
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    2/-----/03 ---:38:53 PM Eastern Standard Time   
From------: <A HREF="mailto:adeon alzimach.net">@-----lzi--ch.----</A>  
To: <A HREF="mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com">JCarey9622@aol.com</A>  
Sent from the Internet (Details)    
    
      To the guy in Chicago S=T or get off the pot  what ever your name is  
""You blew it  Moron """   Plus he just called    You would have got a fat 
bonus for setting up the fiber optic deal with you CO.      Now you get zero  
 Plus we do not have to screw around here in the U.S with the energy Tech. 
either.     HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

      Now do you see what you giant EGO did for you ZERO>  Plus there is all 
ready a CD DEmo disk of Phase conversion operational in the same city he is 
in that we sent last fall to a international group. Nothing but Short sighted 
people in this country who would not recognize an opportunity if it ran them 
over .

 I would not want to be a physicst or Eng. I suggest you types start practing 
your Hamburger flipping Skills    For your new job at Buger King   I smell a 
the party of century   What a day. I Totally ruined Dan the GM ENg's  World  
and now this.  THis is what you call the frosting.   Steven  Greer your 
wasting your money on a tinker toy. Carl Speck and Dan Doherty the hand 
writing is on now the wall.

 DR. Gregory and Sterling Allen  boys you cannot compete either.  You Dropped 
the ball Dennis lee  I did not need you anyway. THe sundance Gen will make a 
nice boat anchor. Unless you can get it done without us  Let us know if you 
cannot    I told him Dennis you had the best Gen on  the Planet  as far as i 
know ,  Jim we will still do BUS .Siemens you blew it to,     Ray Winn  the 
billionaire you blew it also  GENE Mallove  eat your CF  

 Toyota You Blew it so did you Ford  I have not heard from BMW yet, 
Scientific America I do not need you anymore, PLUS you Mag is history You had 
your chance     Patrick  Now I can Buy Sterling in London Plus  My daughter 
is out of school soon  and is a PR genius Now i can ship her over there and 
get her out of my hair She can drive you crazy for a while  Patrick   

When Wayne Died and we Split I had to Put Together new Deals. Now I have 
.EARL You And Marlene are History with Confidential Technologies  Because you 
cannot compete either. You will not be on our Team. Jack wins you and Marlene 
 lose Earl  You should have been team players we were   

With This deal  The out west  deal in about 60 days and the Billionaire Group 
Will now step up to the plate sooner Once they see this    You auto Co's  I 
see a new Co. you cannot compete with. in the market place .SEE there are 
people that can do what no one else can when you read his mail.  
 
Hi Jack,
 
Sorry for the delay in responding to you.  I don't check my hotmail too 
often.  This is my main email address.  The stuff you sent me was very 
interesting.  I am finding more and more reference to this cold, negative 
induced current.  I have done a lot of research on it.  There are many 
theories on the how and why.  I have my own also =) .
 
I am not a mathematician.  I was unable to go to university because of my 
poor mathematics skills.  I get top grades in Physics but failed in maths.  I 
don't know why.  My physics teacher was very confused with me.  Anyway I have 
always had a love of electricity, even as a child I would make my own toys 
using old motors and things.  My main focus for work however has been in the 
computer Internet industry.
 
I have been doing energy research for about 7 years.  I get very frustrated 
while dealing with inventors.  Many are to overly protective or paranoid, 
they never let anything "real" out.  Maybe most of them are just scammers.  
But I know a lot are not.
 
Right now I am contracted to find a product for a large telecommunications 
company that is looking to move into the energy field.  They want the 
"Impossible" a free energy machine.. I am known in the industry for doing 
"Impossible" things.  I was talking to the director and owner of this company 
about the energy scene.  It turned out he had always dreamed of this, and 
after I finished my last Impossible contract of developing a 
---------------------------------------- (Which many big companies like 
Philips, Sony etc said could not be done 
with----------------------------------, we did it.) I put all my research 
together and presented it to him and his executives.  They then gave me the 
go ahead. "Find us a product, and lets do this!"
 
We have the finance and the ability to put these projects to work.  We are 
looking for licensing deals.  We also have manufacturing facilities through 
one of our partner companies who has been involved with replicating and 
testing some of the technology.  We are currently working with one inventor 
who has proven to have a product that works on a small scale.  It sounds very 
similar to what you have, but we need it Big Scale.  It also produces energy 
via negative inductance "Cold Energy".  You are right.  This is 23rd century 
technology, and we need it now more than ever.
 
I am very busy with a number of projects, but if you have a real working 
product please send me some more details.
 
Specifically I need to know what stage you are at..
 
Eg.
1. READY FOR PRODUCTION
2. PROTOTYPE STAGE
3. EXPERIMENTAL STAGE (Mini Prototypes)
4. THEORY STAGE
 
I need to know what your group is looking for. What do you want?
1. LICENSING DEALS
2. PARTNERSHIPS
etc.
 
We are looking for a free energy generator.  A device which breaks all the 
current "laws" of physics and produces clean free energy.
 
Being involved in Telecommunications, this company is very close to the 
government.  This is not a problem.  Please excuse the bluntness of my email, 
but I need to be sure it is clear, without any fancy wording and language.
 
Look Forward to hearing from you..
 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>    2/-----/03 ---:38:53=20=
PM Eastern Standard Time   <BR>
From------: <A HREF=3D"mailto:adeon alzimach.net">@-----lzi--ch.----</A>  <B=
R>
To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com">JCarey9622@aol.com</A>  <BR>
<I>Sent from the Internet (Details)</I>    <BR>
    <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To the guy in Chicago S=3DT or get off the po=
t&nbsp; what ever your name is&nbsp; ""You blew it&nbsp; Moron """&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Plus he just called&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You would have got a fat bonus for=20=
setting up the fiber optic deal with you CO.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; N=
ow you get zero&nbsp;&nbsp; Plus we do not have to screw around here in the=20=
U.S with the energy Tech. either.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA=
 <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now do you see what you giant EGO did for you=
 ZERO&gt;&nbsp; Plus there is all ready a CD DEmo disk of Phase conversion o=
perational in the same city he is in that we sent last fall to a internation=
al group. Nothing but Short sighted people in this country who would not rec=
ognize an opportunity if it ran them over .<BR>
<BR>
 I would not want to be a physicst or Eng. I suggest you types start practin=
g your Hamburger flipping Skills&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For your new job at Buger=
 King&nbsp;&nbsp; I smell a the party of century&nbsp;&nbsp; What a day. I T=
otally ruined Dan the GM ENg's&nbsp; World&nbsp; and now this.&nbsp; THis is=
 what you call the frosting.&nbsp;&nbsp; Steven&nbsp; Greer your wasting you=
r money on a tinker toy. Carl Speck and Dan Doherty the hand writing is on n=
ow the wall.<BR>
<BR>
 DR. Gregory and Sterling Allen&nbsp; boys you cannot compete either.&nbsp;=20=
You Dropped the ball Dennis lee&nbsp; I did not need you anyway. THe sundanc=
e Gen will make a nice boat anchor. Unless you can get it done without us&nb=
sp; Let us know if you cannot&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I told him Dennis you had th=
e best Gen on&nbsp; the Planet&nbsp; as far as i know ,&nbsp; Jim we will st=
ill do BUS .Siemens you blew it to,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ray Winn&nbsp; t=
he billionaire you blew it also&nbsp; GENE Mallove&nbsp; eat your CF&nbsp; <=
BR>
<BR>
 Toyota You Blew it so did you Ford&nbsp; I have not heard from BMW yet, Sci=
entific America I do not need you anymore, PLUS you Mag is history You had y=
our chance&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Patrick&nbsp; Now I can Buy Sterling in L=
ondon Plus&nbsp; My daughter is out of school soon&nbsp; and is a PR genius=20=
Now i can ship her over there and get her out of my hair She can drive you c=
razy for a while&nbsp; Patrick&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
When Wayne Died and we Split I had to Put Together new Deals. Now I have .EA=
RL You And Marlene are History with Confidential Technologies&nbsp; Because=20=
you cannot compete either. You will not be on our Team. Jack wins you and Ma=
rlene&nbsp; lose Earl&nbsp; You should have been team players we were&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
With This deal&nbsp; The out west&nbsp; deal in about 60 days and the Billio=
naire Group Will now step up to the plate sooner Once they see this&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; You auto Co's&nbsp; I see a new Co. you cannot compete with. in th=
e market place .SEE there are people that can do what no one else can when y=
ou read his mail.&nbsp; <BR>
 <BR>
Hi Jack,</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Sorry for the delay in respo=
nding to you.&nbsp; I don't check my hotmail too often.&nbsp; This is my mai=
n email address.&nbsp; The stuff you sent me was very interesting.&nbsp; I a=
m finding more and more reference to this cold, negative induced current.&nb=
sp; I have done a lot of research on it.&nbsp; There are many theories on th=
e how and why.&nbsp; I have my own also =3D) .</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I am not a mathematician.&nb=
sp; I was unable to go to university because of my poor mathematics skills.&=
nbsp; I get top grades in Physics but failed in maths.&nbsp; I don't know wh=
y.&nbsp; My physics teacher was very confused with me.&nbsp; Anyway I have a=
lways had a love of electricity, even as a child I would make my own toys us=
ing old motors and things.&nbsp; My main focus for work however has been in=20=
the computer Internet industry.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACK=
GROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"=
0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I have been doing energy res=
earch for about 7 years.&nbsp; I get very frustrated while dealing with inve=
ntors.&nbsp; Many are to overly protective or paranoid, they never let anyth=
ing "real" out.&nbsp; Maybe most of them are just scammers.&nbsp; But I know=
 a lot are not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Right now I am contracted to=
 find a product for a large telecommunications company that is looking to mo=
ve into the energy field.&nbsp; They want the "Impossible" a free energy mac=
hine.. I am known in the industry for doing "Impossible" things.&nbsp; I was=
 talking to the director and owner of this company about the energy scene.&n=
bsp; It turned out he had always dreamed of this, and after I finished my la=
st Impossible contract of developing a -------------------------------------=
--- (Which many big companies like Philips, Sony etc said could not be done=20=
with----------------------------------, we did it.) I put all my research to=
gether and presented it to him and his executives.&nbsp; They then gave me t=
he go ahead. "Find us a product, and lets do this!"</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FAC=
E=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">We have the finance and the=20=
ability to put these projects to work.&nbsp; We are looking for licensing de=
als.&nbsp; We also have manufacturing facilities through one of our partner=20=
companies who has been involved with replicating and testing some of the tec=
hnology.&nbsp; We are currently working with one inventor who has proven to=20=
have a product that works on a small scale.&nbsp; It sounds very similar to=20=
what you have, but we need it Big Scale.&nbsp; It also produces energy via n=
egative inductance "Cold Energy".&nbsp; You are right.&nbsp; This is 23rd ce=
ntury technology, and we need it now more than ever.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#=
000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FA=
CE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I am very busy with a number=
 of projects, but if you have a real working product please send me some mor=
e details.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Specifically I need to know=20=
what stage you are at..</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Eg.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FAC=
E=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">1. READY FOR PRODUCTION</FON=
T><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">2. PROTOTYPE STAGE</FONT><FO=
NT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">3. EXPERIMENTAL STAGE (Mini=20=
Prototypes)</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">4. THEORY STAGE</FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I need to know what your gro=
up is looking for. What do you want?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">1. LICENSING DEALS</FONT><FO=
NT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">2. PARTNERSHIPS</FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">etc.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#=
000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FA=
CE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">We are looking for a free en=
ergy generator.&nbsp; A device which breaks all the current "laws" of physic=
s and produces clean free energy.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Being involved in Telecommun=
ications, this company is very close to the government.&nbsp; This is not a=20=
problem.&nbsp; Please excuse the bluntness of my email, but I need to be sur=
e it is clear, without any fancy wording and language.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Look Forward to hearing from=
 you..</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI=
ZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 22:07:28 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <122.1f655186.2b8db300 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 01:04:48 EST
Subject: Re: DON I'm fighting with ever fiber in my being possibly the biggest  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, dwiegel@attbi.com
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In a message dated 2/25/03 11:42:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dwiegel attbi.com writes:


> Uphill Battle in recorded history. By being a real fool for attempting 
> | something of that magnetude, with inadequate writing skills. In order to 
> | possibly change the thinking dynamics of a civilization.  That basically 
> does 
> | not function as they are now because of the closed and narrow minded, no 
> | investigative attitudes they have. Our forefathers look for solutions We 
> | basically do not. 
> 
> >>> As you-all can see .. Jack's writing skills have improved .. It's 
> simply a matter of EFFORT!
> None of the personalities on this list have narrow or closed minds .. OR 
> THEY  wouldn't be on
> this list.  Just like our forefathers .. We also look for solutions .. The 
> World is not;
> Never has been "BLACK & WHITE".  You have "PEOPLE" from this list willing 
> to test
> your devices .. That's not closed or narrow minded.
> 
> |    REPLY   I do not here my phone ringing DON  WE all ready have a 50 
> million tech that will test  But I thanked  them and said they could come 
> as many have all ready   Writing skills is not an issue  As long as the 
> point gets accross 

> | Because of now basically worthless EDU. System that doesn't teach the 
> correct 
> | way. Which would be a creative thinking and a free thought process. No, 
> that 
> | would possibly make sense. Instead they preach conformity which makes 
> zero 
> | sense.   BUT the fact is if someone does not put it on the line and  
> stand up 
> | for those that follow us  
> 
> >>> Yes the Education system has problems .. But for the most part it 
> works.
> The "REAL" problem is at "HOME". That is where the TRUE VALUES are learned.
> I have a child in the 10th grade .. So I'm "Walking the Walk".  It's not 
> easy - but
> it's not suppose to be.

>         Home is a problem because the Govt. broke up the family unit  My 
> three are are creators of companies and College Grads. and were at the top 
> of there class  Or near it. My Daughter is at the top of her Class as a PR 
> genius but a B Student the EDu. part NEEDS to be totally changed  HER 
> professors said she is the Best They have ever seen They all ignored the 
> programing  THe EDU. system Attempted   Because  I told them they would 
> attempt it      School is Worthless   
> | 
> | The civilization will not survive past 2150 when there will be 19 billion 
> of 
> | us.  Now for possibly the first time in history with the advent of a 
> | combination of new clean evolutionary power conversion, propulsion, 
> medical, 
> | computer and vast cost effective problem solving environmental 
> technologies 
> 
> >>> You've mentioned crystal balls in the past .. I guess you also have 
> one.
> People who live in glass houses .. Shouldn't throw rocks.
>   
      REPLY  Appearently you have not looked at the hand writing on the wall 
lately  Because that is what i read  You need to look or are you afarid to   
That is a no brainer  

> >>> I have fath that mankind will go to the brink --- Then pull back -- And 
> survive.
> "NEW ENERGY" in its many forms will be used in the future.  It just takes 
> time
> to change the infrastructure.
> 
> |     WE cannot afford to go to the brink by that time it will be to late  
> We go to the brink we are history 

> | We possibly have a glimmer of hope that may enable us if we all work 
> together 
> | as one. To create the positive changes on this planet that are necessary. 
>   
> | If that process requires the dismantling our current basically in the box 
> 
> | scientific community and the creation of a new, that actually functions 
> so be 
> | it. They have been given a chance to be involved in those changes.  I do 
> not 
> | care either  way what they do, because we do not need them as they think 
> we 
> | do    
> 
> >>> You are wrong .. We "NEED" Everybody .. Everybody has their place.
>               THe SCI  Comm is history  Unless they do some fast stepping   
> soon  I'm done playing with them  read the mail you just got and you will 
> see why 
> ..DonW..
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/25/0=
3 11:42:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, dwiegel attbi.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Uphill Battle in recorded histo=
ry. By being a real fool for attempting <BR>
| something of that magnetude, with inadequate writing skills. In order to <=
BR>
| possibly change the thinking dynamics of a civilization.&nbsp; That basica=
lly does <BR>
| not function as they are now because of the closed and narrow minded, no <=
BR>
| investigative attitudes they have. Our forefathers look for solutions We <=
BR>
| basically do not. <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; As you-all can see .. Jack's writing skills have improved .. It=
's simply a matter of EFFORT!<BR>
None of the personalities on this list have narrow or closed minds .. OR THE=
Y&nbsp; wouldn't be on<BR>
this list.&nbsp; Just like our forefathers .. We also look for solutions ..=20=
The World is not;<BR>
Never has been "BLACK &amp; WHITE".&nbsp; You have "PEOPLE" from this list w=
illing to test<BR>
your devices .. That's not closed or narrow minded.<BR>
<BR>
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not here my phone ringing DON&nbs=
p; WE all ready have a 50 million tech that will test&nbsp; But I thanked&nb=
sp; them and said they could come as many have all ready&nbsp;&nbsp; Writing=
 skills is not an issue&nbsp; As long as the point gets accross </FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">| Because of now basically wort=
hless EDU. System that doesn't teach the correct <BR>
| way. Which would be a creative thinking and a free thought process. No, th=
at <BR>
| would possibly make sense. Instead they preach conformity which makes zero=
 <BR>
| sense.&nbsp;&nbsp; BUT the fact is if someone does not put it on the line=20=
and&nbsp; stand up <BR>
| for those that follow us&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes the Education system has problems .. But for the most part=20=
it works.<BR>
The "REAL" problem is at "HOME". That is where the TRUE VALUES are learned.<=
BR>
I have a child in the 10th grade .. So I'm "Walking the Walk".&nbsp; It's no=
t easy - but<BR>
it's not suppose to be.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLO=
CKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Home is a proble=
m because the Govt. broke up the family unit&nbsp; My three are are creators=
 of companies and College Grads. and were at the top of there class&nbsp; Or=
 near it. My Daughter is at the top of her Class as a PR genius but a B Stud=
ent the EDu. part NEEDS to be totally changed&nbsp; HER professors said she=20=
is the Best They have ever seen They all ignored the programing&nbsp; THe ED=
U. system Attempted&nbsp;&nbsp; Because&nbsp; I told them they would attempt=
 it&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; School is Worthless&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
| <BR>
| The civilization will not survive past 2150 when there will be 19 billion=20=
of <BR>
| us.&nbsp; Now for possibly the first time in history with the advent of a=20=
<BR>
| combination of new clean evolutionary power conversion, propulsion, medica=
l, <BR>
| computer and vast cost effective problem solving environmental technologie=
s <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; You've mentioned crystal balls in the past .. I guess you also=20=
have one.<BR>
People who live in glass houses .. Shouldn't throw rocks.<BR>
&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Appearently you have not looked a=
t the hand writing on the wall lately&nbsp; Because that is what i read&nbsp=
; You need to look or are you afarid to&nbsp;&nbsp; That is a no brainer&nbs=
p; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;&gt;&gt; I have fath that m=
ankind will go to the brink --- Then pull back -- And survive.<BR>
"NEW ENERGY" in its many forms will be used in the future.&nbsp; It just tak=
es time<BR>
to change the infrastructure.<BR>
<BR>
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE cannot afford to go to the brink by that time i=
t will be to late&nbsp; We go to the brink we are history </FONT><FONT  COLO=
R=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">| We possibly have a glimmer of hope that may enable us if=20=
we all work together <BR>
| as one. To create the positive changes on this planet that are necessary.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
| If that process requires the dismantling our current basically in the box=20=
<BR>
| scientific community and the creation of a new, that actually functions so=
 be <BR>
| it. They have been given a chance to be involved in those changes.&nbsp; I=
 do not <BR>
| care either&nbsp; way what they do, because we do not need them as they th=
ink we <BR>
| do&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; You are wrong .. We "NEED" Everybody .. Everybody has their pla=
ce.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; THe SCI&nbsp; Comm is history&nbsp; Unless they do some fast stepping&nbs=
p;&nbsp; soon&nbsp; I'm done playing with them&nbsp; read the mail you just=20=
got and you will see why <BR>
..DonW..<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 06:47:01 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <75.b0e497b.2b8e2cc0 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:44:16 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Somebody 10,000 Mi Away in Hong Kong  that ca...
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In a message dated 2/26/03 2:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:


> what the hell does this have to do with alt fuels? so what company did you
> contact??? bet it wasnt mine
> 

        I have attempted  to tell you we will not need alternative fuels but 
you will not investigate. No, your berate me   You saw I have contacted fiber 
optic situations that should give a clue we may have something.   NO you have 
a giant ego and think you know all there is to know about Fiber Optics like 
many out here know everything also.

  I give you the Tech's NO. to call about the questions you asked about the 
fiber optic advanced Tech. that is a 25 year Quantum leap possibly   Do you 
call?   No    I present and seek involvement situations I even knew a little 
about fiber but i could not answer specific questions and had stated before 
up front I'm not a tech. type I'm a business type 

  Who contacted me is none of your business  When I sent a mail to tell them 
to call I did not know at the time they were 10,000 miles away  They did as 
soon as they saw the mail and we spoke for 2 HR.. It is not the first call i 
have received from Hong Kong  

There are some very Sharp Business types over there. It is the best place on 
the planet to have a CO. India is the worst that is why so many of them come 
here.  I saw that on a documentary about business situations on the planet   
Now your CO will probably be buying from them instead of them from you.  

   I would not want to deal with your CO if they are anything like you are an 
arrogant  as- hole jerk off    No thanks  But this dramatically advanced 
fiber knowledge goes to the highest bidder    I would rather be first 
licensee and then license it to others than bowing down to the first licensee 
as your CO would have to do if they were not 

 When your CO finds out you blew it I would not want to be you anyway in 
hell. I will make sure they know you did. screw up.  Did you think about that 
NO you just made snide remarks.  But they can bid on it if they want to but I 
would not stand around scratching myself if I was them.  Because this deal 
will made in a short period of time The guy in Hong Kong was basically 
speechless.  I kept saying are you there and he would say yes. Because as 
usual I generally encounter a great of silence from people that can see past 
there nose and are attempting to take it all in.

 I try to get them to talk but they say no I want to listen and learn unlike 
you.  They say your making a lot of sense if they have an open mind.  Not a 
closed narrow one like you.  I always tell a couple of jokes or make fun of 
myself so they will think I'm somewhat normal.  I have had them ask where do 
you keep your Space Ship and will it fit in the garage. 

  I tell them my wife said it could not take up her parking place.  I tell 
them it hovers over the my house but you cannot see it. But I will show to 
you at night only so as not to scare the hell out of the neighbors if I turn 
off the Cloaking device. During the day time     

The life and times of the babbling idiot Jack Carey  Who should be locked up 
somewhere in a rubber room witch was attempted once. But I drove them crazy 
and they said never come back because we are now alcoholics because of you 
They were to serious and cold not take a joke. Just like the guys on Vortex.  
Plus they made me take all my drunken free loading pain in the ass alien 
friends with me. 

That is why I committed myself to get away from them in the first place. 
Because they were worse than my children. Because they were eating me out of 
house and home. When they finally found the Booze They never slept .They just 
raised hell all night and would get in fights and break up all the furniture. 
Fire water did not agree with them. You did not want to anywhere near them 
when the burped. They had some beautiful girl friends. I would to if I had 
one two FEET. long. 

 Have you ever had an alien puke on you it takes 5 days for that odor to go 
away.  All they do is stand around waiting for you to take dump because that 
is like Burger King whopper to them. You did not dare have a cat in the 
house. Or he became lunch.  I finally got rid of them when I talked them into 
buying a porta potty CO. They are in 7 Th. heaven     Now you may understand 
what creating is all about people       

--part1_75.b0e497b.2b8e2cc0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/26/0=
3 2:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:=
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">what the hell does this have to=
 do with alt fuels? so what company did you<BR>
contact??? bet it wasnt mine<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> I have attempted&nbsp; to tell=
 you we will not need alternative fuels but you will not investigate. No, yo=
ur berate me&nbsp;&nbsp; You saw I have contacted fiber optic situations tha=
t should give a clue we may have something.&nbsp;&nbsp; NO you have a giant=20=
ego and think you know all there is to know about Fiber Optics like many out=
 here know everything also.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; I give you the Tech's NO. to call about the questions you asked about=
 the fiber optic advanced Tech. that is a 25 year Quantum leap possibly&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Do you call?&nbsp;&nbsp; No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I present and seek inv=
olvement situations I even knew a little about fiber but i could not answer=20=
specific questions and had stated before up front I'm not a tech. type I'm a=
 business type <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Who contacted me is none of your business&nbsp; When I sent a mail to=
 tell them to call I did not know at the time they were 10,000 miles away&nb=
sp; They did as soon as they saw the mail and we spoke for 2 HR.. It is not=20=
the first call i have received from Hong Kong&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
There are some very Sharp Business types over there. It is the best place on=
 the planet to have a CO. India is the worst that is why so many of them com=
e here.&nbsp; I saw that on a documentary about business situations on the p=
lanet&nbsp;&nbsp; Now your CO will probably be buying from them instead of t=
hem from you.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; I would not want to deal with your CO if they are anything like=
 you are an arrogant&nbsp; as- hole jerk off&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No thanks&nbs=
p; But this dramatically advanced fiber knowledge goes to the highest bidder=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I would rather be first licensee and then license it to o=
thers than bowing down to the first licensee as your CO would have to do if=20=
they were not <BR>
<BR>
 When your CO finds out you blew it I would not want to be you anyway in hel=
l. I will make sure they know you did. screw up.&nbsp; Did you think about t=
hat NO you just made snide remarks.&nbsp; But they can bid on it if they wan=
t to but I would not stand around scratching myself if I was them.&nbsp; Bec=
ause this deal will made in a short period of time The guy in Hong Kong was=20=
basically speechless.&nbsp; I kept saying are you there and he would say yes=
. Because as usual I generally encounter a great of silence from people that=
 can see past there nose and are attempting to take it all in.<BR>
<BR>
 I try to get them to talk but they say no I want to listen and learn unlike=
 you.&nbsp; They say your making a lot of sense if they have an open mind.&n=
bsp; Not a closed narrow one like you.&nbsp; I always tell a couple of jokes=
 or make fun of myself so they will think I'm somewhat normal.&nbsp; I have=20=
had them ask where do you keep your Space Ship and will it fit in the garage=
. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; I tell them my wife said it could not take up her parking place.&nbsp=
; I tell them it hovers over the my house but you cannot see it. But I will=20=
show to you at night only so as not to scare the hell out of the neighbors i=
f I turn off the Cloaking device. During the day time&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <BR>
<BR>
The life and times of the babbling idiot Jack Carey&nbsp; Who should be lock=
ed up somewhere in a rubber room witch was attempted once. But I drove them=20=
crazy and they said never come back because we are now alcoholics because of=
 you They were to serious and cold not take a joke. Just like the guys on Vo=
rtex.&nbsp; Plus they made me take all my drunken free loading pain in the a=
ss alien friends with me. <BR>
<BR>
That is why I committed myself to get away from them in the first place. Bec=
ause they were worse than my children. Because they were eating me out of ho=
use and home. When they finally found the Booze They never slept .They just=20=
raised hell all night and would get in fights and break up all the furniture=
. Fire water did not agree with them. You did not want to anywhere near them=
 when the burped. They had some beautiful girl friends. I would to if I had=20=
one two FEET. long. <BR>
<BR>
 Have you ever had an alien puke on you it takes 5 days for that odor to go=20=
away.&nbsp; All they do is stand around waiting for you to take dump because=
 that is like Burger King whopper to them. You did not dare have a cat in th=
e house. Or he became lunch.&nbsp; I finally got rid of them when I talked t=
hem into buying a porta potty CO. They are in 7 Th. heaven&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Now you may understand what creating is all about people&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_75.b0e497b.2b8e2cc0_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 07:30:45 2003
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	Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:26:17 -0800
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Message-ID: <001b01c2ddab$89b6cd40$6501a8c0 Home>
Reply-To: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
From: "DonW" <dwiegel attbi.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <75.b0e497b.2b8e2cc0 aol.com>
Subject: Goodby Jack ...
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:26:48 -0700
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You are still breaking the rules .. This stuff is garbage .. You just =
lost another person .. You are going in my "KILL" File
Goodbye Jack ..DonW..
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JCarey9622 aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Somebody 10,000 Mi Away in =
Hong Kong that ca...


  In a message dated 2/26/03 2:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, =
pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:



    what the hell does this have to do with alt fuels? so what company =
did you
    contact??? bet it wasnt mine



          I have attempted  to tell you we will not need alternative =
fuels but you will not investigate. No, your berate me   You saw I have =
contacted fiber optic situations that should give a clue we may have =
something.   NO you have a giant ego and think you know all there is to =
know about Fiber Optics like many out here know everything also.

    I give you the Tech's NO. to call about the questions you asked =
about the fiber optic advanced Tech. that is a 25 year Quantum leap =
possibly   Do you call?   No    I present and seek involvement =
situations I even knew a little about fiber but i could not answer =
specific questions and had stated before up front I'm not a tech. type =
I'm a business type=20

    Who contacted me is none of your business  When I sent a mail to =
tell them to call I did not know at the time they were 10,000 miles away =
 They did as soon as they saw the mail and we spoke for 2 HR.. It is not =
the first call i have received from Hong Kong =20

  There are some very Sharp Business types over there. It is the best =
place on the planet to have a CO. India is the worst that is why so many =
of them come here.  I saw that on a documentary about business =
situations on the planet   Now your CO will probably be buying from them =
instead of them from you. =20

     I would not want to deal with your CO if they are anything like you =
are an arrogant  as- hole jerk off    No thanks  But this dramatically =
advanced fiber knowledge goes to the highest bidder    I would rather be =
first licensee and then license it to others than bowing down to the =
first licensee as your CO would have to do if they were not=20

  When your CO finds out you blew it I would not want to be you anyway =
in hell. I will make sure they know you did. screw up.  Did you think =
about that NO you just made snide remarks.  But they can bid on it if =
they want to but I would not stand around scratching myself if I was =
them.  Because this deal will made in a short period of time The guy in =
Hong Kong was basically speechless.  I kept saying are you there and he =
would say yes. Because as usual I generally encounter a great of silence =
from people that can see past there nose and are attempting to take it =
all in.

  I try to get them to talk but they say no I want to listen and learn =
unlike you.  They say your making a lot of sense if they have an open =
mind.  Not a closed narrow one like you.  I always tell a couple of =
jokes or make fun of myself so they will think I'm somewhat normal.  I =
have had them ask where do you keep your Space Ship and will it fit in =
the garage.=20

    I tell them my wife said it could not take up her parking place.  I =
tell them it hovers over the my house but you cannot see it. But I will =
show to you at night only so as not to scare the hell out of the =
neighbors if I turn off the Cloaking device. During the day time    =20

  The life and times of the babbling idiot Jack Carey  Who should be =
locked up somewhere in a rubber room witch was attempted once. But I =
drove them crazy and they said never come back because we are now =
alcoholics because of you They were to serious and cold not take a joke. =
Just like the guys on Vortex.  Plus they made me take all my drunken =
free loading pain in the ass alien friends with me.=20

  That is why I committed myself to get away from them in the first =
place. Because they were worse than my children. Because they were =
eating me out of house and home. When they finally found the Booze They =
never slept .They just raised hell all night and would get in fights and =
break up all the furniture. Fire water did not agree with them. You did =
not want to anywhere near them when the burped. They had some beautiful =
girl friends. I would to if I had one two FEET. long.=20

  Have you ever had an alien puke on you it takes 5 days for that odor =
to go away.  All they do is stand around waiting for you to take dump =
because that is like Burger King whopper to them. You did not dare have =
a cat in the house. Or he became lunch.  I finally got rid of them when =
I talked them into buying a porta potty CO. They are in 7 Th. heaven     =
Now you may understand what creating is all about people      =20

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2DD70.CE267E20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You are still breaking the rules .. This stuff is =
garbage ..=20
You just lost another person .. You are going in my "KILL" =
File</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Goodbye Jack ..DonW..</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DJCarey9622 aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com">JCarey9622@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dalternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com">alternativefuelve=
hicles yahoogroups.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 26, =
2003 7:44=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Alternative Fuel =
Vehicles]=20
  Somebody 10,000 Mi Away in Hong Kong that ca...</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In a =
message dated=20
  2/26/03 2:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com">pramirez@my-suzuki.homel=
inux.com</A>=20
  writes:<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">what the hell does this have to do with alt fuels? so =
what=20
    company did you<BR>contact??? bet it wasnt=20
  =
mine<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B=
> I=20
  have attempted&nbsp; to tell you we will not need alternative fuels =
but you=20
  will not investigate. No, your berate me&nbsp;&nbsp; You saw I have =
contacted=20
  fiber optic situations that should give a clue we may have=20
  something.&nbsp;&nbsp; NO you have a giant ego and think you know all =
there is=20
  to know about Fiber Optics like many out here know everything=20
  also.<BR><BR>&nbsp; I give you the Tech's NO. to call about the =
questions you=20
  asked about the fiber optic advanced Tech. that is a 25 year Quantum =
leap=20
  possibly&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you call?&nbsp;&nbsp; No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I =
present=20
  and seek involvement situations I even knew a little about fiber but i =
could=20
  not answer specific questions and had stated before up front I'm not a =
tech.=20
  type I'm a business type <BR><BR>&nbsp; Who contacted me is none of =
your=20
  business&nbsp; When I sent a mail to tell them to call I did not know =
at the=20
  time they were 10,000 miles away&nbsp; They did as soon as they saw =
the mail=20
  and we spoke for 2 HR.. It is not the first call i have received from =
Hong=20
  Kong&nbsp; <BR><BR>There are some very Sharp Business types over =
there. It is=20
  the best place on the planet to have a CO. India is the worst that is =
why so=20
  many of them come here.&nbsp; I saw that on a documentary about =
business=20
  situations on the planet&nbsp;&nbsp; Now your CO will probably be =
buying from=20
  them instead of them from you.&nbsp; <BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; I would not =
want to=20
  deal with your CO if they are anything like you are an arrogant&nbsp; =
as- hole=20
  jerk off&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No thanks&nbsp; But this dramatically =
advanced=20
  fiber knowledge goes to the highest bidder&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I would =
rather be=20
  first licensee and then license it to others than bowing down to the =
first=20
  licensee as your CO would have to do if they were not <BR><BR>When =
your CO=20
  finds out you blew it I would not want to be you anyway in hell. I =
will make=20
  sure they know you did. screw up.&nbsp; Did you think about that NO =
you just=20
  made snide remarks.&nbsp; But they can bid on it if they want to but I =
would=20
  not stand around scratching myself if I was them.&nbsp; Because this =
deal will=20
  made in a short period of time The guy in Hong Kong was basically=20
  speechless.&nbsp; I kept saying are you there and he would say yes. =
Because as=20
  usual I generally encounter a great of silence from people that can =
see past=20
  there nose and are attempting to take it all in.<BR><BR>I try to get =
them to=20
  talk but they say no I want to listen and learn unlike you.&nbsp; They =
say=20
  your making a lot of sense if they have an open mind.&nbsp; Not a =
closed=20
  narrow one like you.&nbsp; I always tell a couple of jokes or make fun =
of=20
  myself so they will think I'm somewhat normal.&nbsp; I have had them =
ask where=20
  do you keep your Space Ship and will it fit in the garage. =
<BR><BR>&nbsp; I=20
  tell them my wife said it could not take up her parking place.&nbsp; I =
tell=20
  them it hovers over the my house but you cannot see it. But I will =
show to you=20
  at night only so as not to scare the hell out of the neighbors if I =
turn off=20
  the Cloaking device. During the day time&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<BR><BR>The=20
  life and times of the babbling idiot Jack Carey&nbsp; Who should be =
locked up=20
  somewhere in a rubber room witch was attempted once. But I drove them =
crazy=20
  and they said never come back because we are now alcoholics because of =
you=20
  They were to serious and cold not take a joke. Just like the guys on=20
  Vortex.&nbsp; Plus they made me take all my drunken free loading pain =
in the=20
  ass alien friends with me. <BR><BR>That is why I committed myself to =
get away=20
  from them in the first place. Because they were worse than my =
children.=20
  Because they were eating me out of house and home. When they finally =
found the=20
  Booze They never slept .They just raised hell all night and would get =
in=20
  fights and break up all the furniture. Fire water did not agree with =
them. You=20
  did not want to anywhere near them when the burped. They had some =
beautiful=20
  girl friends. I would to if I had one two FEET. long. <BR><BR>Have you =
ever=20
  had an alien puke on you it takes 5 days for that odor to go =
away.&nbsp; All=20
  they do is stand around waiting for you to take dump because that is =
like=20
  Burger King whopper to them. You did not dare have a cat in the house. =
Or he=20
  became lunch.&nbsp; I finally got rid of them when I talked them into =
buying a=20
  porta potty CO. They are in 7 Th. heaven&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now =
you may=20
  understand what creating is all about=20
  people&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</B></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2DD70.CE267E20--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 07:37:37 2003
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Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:34:45 -0800
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:29:51 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Betatron Antigravity Doughnut
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <003701c2ddab$e7e9cac0$0a016ea8 cpq>
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>


> As counterintuitive as it may sound, a betatron with a radius of about 10 meters or
> so, with a circling beam of 1.0 Gev electrons (RTD = 2,000) at about 20 milliamperes,
> requiring a 3.4 kilogauss magnetic containment field, could "see" the earth's
> hypocharge and effect an antigravity force of ~ 100 tonnes.

If this were true, shouldn't any betatron or storage ring during normal operation see enough of an antigravity force to be noticeable to its operators?

Jones


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 07:53:26 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <fstenger@suite224.net>
References: <001301c2dd5a$3d1cfbe0$a811b83f computer> <003701c2ddab$e7e9cac0$0a016ea8@cpq>
Subject: Re: Betatron Antigravity Doughnut
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:48:08 -0600
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: Betatron Antigravity Doughnut

Jones Beene wrote:


> From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>
>
> > As counterintuitive as it may sound, a betatron with a radius of about 10 meters
or
> > so, with a circling beam of 1.0 Gev electrons (RTD = 2,000) at about 20
milliamperes,
> > requiring a 3.4 kilogauss magnetic containment field, could "see" the earth's
> > hypocharge and effect an antigravity force of ~ 100 tonnes.
>
> If this were true, shouldn't any betatron or storage ring during normal operation
see enough of an antigravity force to be noticeable to its operators?

A Good question and one that I'm struggling with.

But,not necessarily, considering the radius, weight, and number of circling electrons
(for the 341 Mev betatron, the largest ever built) it might not be noticeable,unless
you had a scale (load cells) under it.

Or, I miscalculated.   :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Jones
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 11:25:41 2003
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: To John Herman at antioch  college
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	What does BTDT mean?

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>             Mail Is just to difficult  to achieve a new opposite 
> understanding  as I said.  BTDT  several times.    If you wish to evolve It 
> will be necessary to call. Because  as far as I know I'm going to have to  
> dismantal your understanding  of A/C current and create a new one. On  the 
> concept only because that is as far as we go. Because Tech. operational 
> dynamics are the bases for our new  Co  and they do not get Pub or the new 
> equations because visual demos can be provided   810 618 9234    
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 12:17:45 2003
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 college.edu>
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 From Steve's lexicon of TLA and FLA'S:

been there done that


>         What does BTDT mean?

Thanks,

Steve 

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	What are TLA and FLA ???

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, stevek wrote:

>  From Steve's lexicon of TLA and FLA'S:
> 
> been there done that
> 
> 
> >         What does BTDT mean?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 13:05:52 2003
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Subject: Re: To John Herman at antioch  college
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At 03:40 pm 26-02-03 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>	What are TLA and FLA ???
>
Three Letter Acronym and Four Letter Acronym

But a simple Google search would have told
you that faster than it took you to type the 
e-mail  ;-)

Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 13:32:06 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: To John Herman at antioch  college
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--part1_3c.2c816f8c.2b8e8af8_boundary
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     Herman  probably lives in a monastery    Steve when we spoke a couple of 
years ago and you were saying about secret situations is not the way        
Business sense says The bases for Tech situations are  the bases for our CO 
as Cokes process is the bases for theirs .  They have never made theirs 
public why should we if we do not have to

. Science has been clueless as it is for 25 years regarding  Phase 
conversion.  And Still are. Ask Mallove He built an obsolete model  with 
instructions  and is still clueless 2 years later   He has no math and 
without that science is lost. And we are not going to give it out. BECAUSE we 
can provide a demo that proves the new theory the first in a century. THAT is 
all your required to do.  AS far I know.   

 That's how bus. Works  But Science thinks we are required to tell tech. 
aspects      They do not understand Bus. is there problem WHO do they think 
they are and where do they think they get off.   OUR situations make their 
math  knowledge basically obsolete   

He who holds the sledge hammer (technology)  can do as he wishes.   When you 
can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given situation.  You have 
something then. THat totally changes the world. And it is nothing to us 
Because there are far more advanced situations. And now the CO Aspects are 
Coming together.  With A/C current being the absolute dominate situation on 
the planet. And draw factors can be reduced at that level.  Science is 
totally clueless how to deal with a situation of that magnitude 

--part1_3c.2c816f8c.2b8e8af8_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
<B>Herman&nbsp; probably lives in a monastery&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steve when w=
e spoke a couple of years ago and you were saying about secret situations is=
 not the way&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Business sense says T=
he bases for Tech situations are&nbsp; the bases for our CO as Cokes process=
 is the bases for theirs .&nbsp; They have never made theirs public why shou=
ld we if we do not have to<BR>
<BR>
. Science has been clueless as it is for 25 years regarding&nbsp; Phase conv=
ersion.&nbsp; And Still are. Ask Mallove He built an obsolete model&nbsp; wi=
th instructions&nbsp; and is still clueless 2 years later&nbsp;&nbsp; He has=
 no math and without that science is lost. And we are not going to give it o=
ut. BECAUSE we can provide a demo that proves the new theory the first in a=20=
century. THAT is all your required to do.&nbsp; AS far I know.&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
BR>
<BR>
 That's how bus. Works&nbsp; But Science thinks we are required to tell tech=
. aspects&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They do not understand Bus. is there=
 problem WHO do they think they are and where do they think they get off.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; OUR situations make their math&nbsp; knowledge basically obsolete&=
nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
He who holds the sledge hammer (technology)&nbsp; can do as he wishes.&nbsp;=
&nbsp; When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given situat=
ion.&nbsp; You have something then. THat totally changes the world. And it i=
s nothing to us Because there are far more advanced situations. And now the=20=
CO Aspects are Coming together.&nbsp; With A/C current being the absolute do=
minate situation on the planet. And draw factors can be reduced at that leve=
l.&nbsp; Science is totally clueless how to deal with a situation of that ma=
gnitude </B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_3c.2c816f8c.2b8e8af8_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 13:37:42 2003
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sure, but not nearly as personal as a friendly Vortexian!

>But a simple Google search would have told
>you that faster than it took you to type the
>e-mail  ;-)
>


Steve 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 14:17:57 2003
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

> When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given situation. 


Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.  Ideally, the phase 
current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a three 
phase delta configuration.  Given an phase conversion efficiency of 77%, 
your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.

So, what is all the fuss about?

Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scoundrels)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 14:23:04 2003
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
>
>> When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given 
>> situation. 
>
>
>
> Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.  Ideally, the phase 
> current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a 
> three phase delta configuration.  Given an phase conversion efficiency 
> of 77%, your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.
>
> So, what is all the fuss about?
>
> Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scoundrels) 


Ackshully, that should read, "Given a phase conversion efficiency of 
77%, your PHASE current would reduct by exaclty 75%."  

I asssume you measuring current to normal single phase loads.

(engage brain before moving fingers)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 15:16:04 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:12:21 EST
Subject: a problem for you to solve terry 
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In a message dated 2/26/03 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:


> When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given situation. 
> 
> 
> Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.  Ideally, the phase 
> current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a three 
> phase delta configuration.  Given an phase conversion efficiency of 77%, 
> your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.
> 
> So, what is all the fuss about?
> 
> Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scoundrels)
> 
>   75% reduction  translates to 9 amps from a 110 V feed causing 12 to 15 HP 
> of 3 phase equipment to be operational under load  not just running      
> The equation that explains that is " ELECTRON FLOW without CREATING AN EMF" 
>    TERRY ARE YOU NOW LOST. ?   that is high  EFF  only  forget enerything 
> else.      PLEASE EXPLAIN   how that can happen assuning  for discussion 
> purposes  only it is happening     Now i can explain the concept can you 
> evenaccomplish that.  99.99999999999999% Says no    You cannot   Understand 
> your paid to to be able to explain that it is the prime requirement of your 
> job that they pay you for      Remember colleges have seen it operational 
> Do you want call one. ???/
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/26/0=
3 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">When you can drastically reduce=
 current draw 75% for any given situation. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.&nbsp; Ideally, the phase <B=
R>
current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a three <BR>
phase delta configuration.&nbsp; Given an phase conversion efficiency of 77%=
, <BR>
your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.<BR>
<BR>
So, what is all the fuss about?<BR>
<BR>
Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scoundrels)<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; <B>75% reduction&nbsp; translates to 9 amps from a 110 V feed causing=
 12 to 15 HP of 3 phase equipment to be operational under load&nbsp; not jus=
t running&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The equation that explains that is "=
 ELECTRON FLOW without CREATING AN EMF"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TERRY ARE YOU NOW=20=
LOST. ?&nbsp;&nbsp; that is high&nbsp; EFF&nbsp; only&nbsp; forget enerythin=
g else.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLEASE EXPLAIN&nbsp;&nbsp; how that ca=
n happen assuning&nbsp; for discussion purposes&nbsp; only it is happening&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now i can explain the concept can you evenaccomplish=20=
that.&nbsp; 99.99999999999999% Says no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You cannot&nbsp;&nb=
sp; Understand your paid to to be able to explain that it is the prime requi=
rement of your job that they pay you for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Remem=
ber colleges have seen it operational Do you want call one. ???/<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
--part1_183.179f2e19.2b8ea3d5_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 15:40:56 2003
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/26/03 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:
>
>
>> When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given 
>> situation.
>>
>>
>> Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.  Ideally, the phase
>> current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a three
>> phase delta configuration.  Given an phase conversion efficiency of 77%,
>> your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.
>>
>> So, what is all the fuss about?
>>
>> Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scoundrels)
>>
>>   75% reduction  translates to 9 amps from a 110 V feed causing 12 to 
>> 15 HP of 3 phase equipment to be operational under load  not just 
>> running      The equation that explains that is " ELECTRON FLOW 
>> without CREATING AN EMF"    TERRY ARE YOU NOW LOST. ?   that is high  
>> EFF  only  forget enerything else.      PLEASE EXPLAIN   how that can 
>> happen assuning  for discussion purposes  only it is happening     
>> Now i can explain the concept can you evenaccomplish that.  
>> 99.99999999999999% Says no    You cannot   Understand your paid to to 
>> be able to explain that it is the prime requirement of your job that 
>> they pay you for      Remember colleges have seen it operational Do 
>> you want call one. ???/
>
>
>
Okay, let's see . . .

1 hp = 745.7 Watts times 12 (we'll be conservative here) => Output of 
 8948.4 Watts

Input =>  120 Volts x 9 Amps = 1080 Watts

COP = 8948.4/1080 = 8.29

There's no doubt about it . . . you have tapped the Zero Point Field.  I 
suggest you call or write the ZPF expert, Dr. Hal Puthoff 
(puthoff aol.com or see http://earthtech.org), since he has a financial 
backer with literally royal megabucks who will make you more wealthy 
than you are now.

Most of  us vorts don't have the resources Hal has; so, you're wasting 
your time here.

Regards,

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 15:57:10 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <195.1641050e.2b8eadb5 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:54:29 EST
Subject: Tom you made yourself look like a fool 
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In a message dated 2/24/03 8:54:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Since there is no need to mention the pompus blowhard who wrote this, I 
> won't
> 
> >      Who is to say ?   But you cannot deny the fact there are more 
> planets in
> >the universe,  than there are grains of sand on the beach.  We have to be
> >totally ignorant if we think we are the only life forms in the uviverse..
> >That is Stone Age thinking and a total small minded arrogant attitude if 
> we
> >think are.
> 
> According to the cosmology of Dewey B Larson, developer of the 
> Recriprocal Universe, the entire universe is like the skin of a 
> balloon which is expanding at the speed of light.
> 
> I like this cosmology because it fits with my belief in the literal 
> interpretation of the Bible. It is prophecized that the sky will roll 
> up like a scroll, taking all the stars with it. This will happen 
> shortly after the sun goes out.
> 
> In response to your questioning my test procedure. Motors are 
> difficult to make measurements with because their efficiency 
> decreases with size and their energy consumption increases with load. 
> A light load is constant. Three of them tied together on one leg 
> would utilize three phase power. The ultimate measure of power 
> consumption is a resistive heater.
> 
>    I  offer facts he quotes someone's opinion  that he likes    Because it 
fits into to his thinking and ignores the facts         A  Typical closed and 
totally narrow response NO it is the operational aspects of equipment and the 
power draw factors that is normally require verses  the draw factor.  

 That is the way it is done in the real world, He is talking about the theory 
world  Which is totally opposite. It would not be worth my time to deal with 
him. That I can see,  He is not going to give up his locked in a box stone 
wall thinking pre conceptions. NO MATTER WHAT>     

THEY way i described is the way Infinite Energy Mag. tested  but he knows 
more than they do. just ask him.  He will tell you he does.  OK  lets look at 
this their an International  Mag. headed by a MIT Ph.D. Nuclear Physicist  in 
comparison he is a total no body from no where  HELLO  Tom you made yourself 
look like a total fool. with that responce   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/24/0=
3 8:54:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Since there is no need to menti=
on the pompus blowhard who wrote this, I won't<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Who is to say ?&nbsp;&nbsp; But you canno=
t deny the fact there are more planets in<BR>
&gt;the universe,&nbsp; than there are grains of sand on the beach.&nbsp; We=
 have to be<BR>
&gt;totally ignorant if we think we are the only life forms in the uviverse.=
.<BR>
&gt;That is Stone Age thinking and a total small minded arrogant attitude if=
 we<BR>
&gt;think are.<BR>
<BR>
According to the cosmology of Dewey B Larson, developer of the <BR>
Recriprocal Universe, the entire universe is like the skin of a <BR>
balloon which is expanding at the speed of light.<BR>
<BR>
I like this cosmology because it fits with my belief in the literal <BR>
interpretation of the Bible. It is prophecized that the sky will roll <BR>
up like a scroll, taking all the stars with it. This will happen <BR>
shortly after the sun goes out.<BR>
<BR>
In response to your questioning my test procedure. Motors are <BR>
difficult to make measurements with because their efficiency <BR>
decreases with size and their energy consumption increases with load. <BR>
A light load is constant. Three of them tied together on one leg <BR>
would utilize three phase power. The ultimate measure of power <BR>
consumption is a resistive heater.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; I&nbsp; offer facts he quotes someone's opinion=
&nbsp; that he likes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Because it fits into to his thinking=20=
and ignores the facts&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A&nbsp=
; Typical closed and totally narrow response NO it is the operational aspect=
s of equipment and the power draw factors that is normally require verses&nb=
sp; the draw factor.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 That is the way it is done in the real world, He is talking about the theor=
y world&nbsp; Which is totally opposite. It would not be worth my time to de=
al with him. That I can see,&nbsp; He is not going to give up his locked in=20=
a box stone wall thinking pre conceptions. NO MATTER WHAT&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
THEY way i described is the way Infinite Energy Mag. tested&nbsp; but he kno=
ws more than they do. just ask him.&nbsp; He will tell you he does.&nbsp; OK=
&nbsp; lets look at this their an International&nbsp; Mag. headed by a MIT P=
h.D. Nuclear Physicist&nbsp; in comparison he is a total no body from no whe=
re&nbsp; HELLO&nbsp; Tom you made yourself look like a total fool. with that=
 responce&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_195.1641050e.2b8eadb5_boundary--

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <19f.11795060.2b8eb8e8 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:42:16 EST
Subject: Harold he says i should see you THe end of a age and The beginning of a new 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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In a message dated 2/26/03 6:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:


> JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 2/26/03 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> > blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:
> >
> >
> >> When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given 
> >> situation.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.  Ideally, the phase
> >> current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a three
> >> phase delta configuration.  Given an phase conversion efficiency of 77%,
> >> your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.
> >>
> >> So, what is all the fuss about?
> >>
> >> Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scoundrels)
> >>
> >>   75% reduction  translates to 9 amps from a 110 V feed causing 12 to 
> >> 15 HP of 3 phase equipment to be operational under load  not just 
> >> running      The equation that explains that is " ELECTRON FLOW 
> >> without CREATING AN EMF"    TERRY ARE YOU NOW LOST. ?   that is high  
> >> EFF  only  forget enerything else.      PLEASE EXPLAIN   how that can 
> >> happen assuning  for discussion purposes  only it is happening     
> >> Now i can explain the concept can you evenaccomplish that.  
> >> 99.99999999999999% Says no    You cannot   Understand your paid to to 
> >> be able to explain that it is the prime requirement of your job that 
> >> they pay you for      Remember colleges have seen it operational Do 
> >> you want call one. ???/
> >
> >
> >
> Okay, let's see . . .
> 
> 1 hp = 745.7 Watts times 12 (we'll be conservative here) => Output of 
> 8948.4 Watts
> 
> Input =>  120 Volts x 9 Amps = 1080 Watts
> 
> COP = 8948.4/1080 = 8.29
> 
> There's no doubt about it . . . you have tapped the Zero Point Field.  I 
> suggest you call or write the ZPF expert, Dr. Hal Puthoff 
> (puthoff aol.com or see http://earthtech.org), since he has a financial 
> backer with literally royal megabucks who will make you more wealthy 
> than you are now.
> 
> Most of  us vorts don't have the resources Hal has; so, you're wasting 
> your time here.        

   TERRY  Current  contains many aspects we have a situation that uses the 
unknown wasted Kinetic energy (frequency's) all ready > contained in the 
> current. Now it is conducting the vast majority of the work and the Amp 
> aspect is only now conducting a fraction of the work.   So 400 watts can 
now conduct 3750 watts of work 

   The new process is creating magnetic  flux and plasma fields plus drawing 
natural energy from the earth 
> which is free That is totally opposite of how it is understood now.    We 
> have eliminated the power loss factor Call it what you want.  That is the 
> first new electrical theory in a century.  The perfecter of A/C  Nicola 
> Tesla said if we ever understand electricity then and only then will we 
> know something.  What do you think does someone finally understand it ??? 

    If so they are probably the only ones on the planet that do.  If so that  
means  all that is being taught is 
> totally incorrect. If so that is the end of electrical engineering as we 
> know it.     
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Terry        
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/26/0=
3 6:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; In a message dated 2/26/03 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
&gt; blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; When you can drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given <BR>
&gt;&gt; situation.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.&nbsp; Ideally, the=
 phase<BR>
&gt;&gt; current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a t=
hree<BR>
&gt;&gt; phase delta configuration.&nbsp; Given an phase conversion efficien=
cy of 77%,<BR>
&gt;&gt; your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; So, what is all the fuss about?<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the scound=
rels)<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 75% reduction&nbsp; translates to 9 amps from a 110 V f=
eed causing 12 to <BR>
&gt;&gt; 15 HP of 3 phase equipment to be operational under load&nbsp; not j=
ust <BR>
&gt;&gt; running&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The equation that explains th=
at is " ELECTRON FLOW <BR>
&gt;&gt; without CREATING AN EMF"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TERRY ARE YOU NOW LOST.=20=
?&nbsp;&nbsp; that is high&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;&gt; EFF&nbsp; only&nbsp; forget enerything else.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; PLEASE EXPLAIN&nbsp;&nbsp; how that can <BR>
&gt;&gt; happen assuning&nbsp; for discussion purposes&nbsp; only it is happ=
ening&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;&gt; Now i can explain the concept can you evenaccomplish that.&nbsp; <B=
R>
&gt;&gt; 99.99999999999999% Says no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You cannot&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Understand your paid to to <BR>
&gt;&gt; be able to explain that it is the prime requirement of your job tha=
t <BR>
&gt;&gt; they pay you for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Remember colleges ha=
ve seen it operational Do <BR>
&gt;&gt; you want call one. ???/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
Okay, let's see . . .<BR>
<BR>
1 hp =3D 745.7 Watts times 12 (we'll be conservative here) =3D&gt; Output of=
 <BR>
8948.4 Watts<BR>
<BR>
Input =3D&gt;&nbsp; 120 Volts x 9 Amps =3D 1080 Watts<BR>
<BR>
COP =3D 8948.4/1080 =3D 8.29<BR>
<BR>
There's no doubt about it . . . you have tapped the Zero Point Field.&nbsp;=20=
I <BR>
suggest you call or write the ZPF expert, Dr. Hal Puthoff <BR>
(puthoff aol.com or see http://earthtech.org), since he has a financial <BR>
backer with literally royal megabucks who will make you more wealthy <BR>
than you are now.<BR>
<BR>
Most of&nbsp; us vorts don't have the resources Hal has; so, you're wasting=20=
<BR>
your time here.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLO=
R=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> TERRY&nbsp;=20=
Current&nbsp; contains many aspects we have a situation that uses the unknow=
n wasted Kinetic energy (frequency's) all ready <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">contained in the current. Now it is conducting the vast maj=
ority of the work and the Amp aspect is only now conducting a fraction of th=
e work.&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></=
B>&nbsp; So 400 watts can now conduct 3750 watts of work <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; The new process is creating magnetic&nbsp; flux and plasma f=
ields plus drawing natural energy from the earth </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>which is free That is totally opposite of how it is unde=
rstood now.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We have eliminated the power loss factor Call=20=
it what you want.&nbsp; That is the first new electrical theory in a century=
.&nbsp; The perfecter of A/C&nbsp; Nicola Tesla said if we ever understand e=
lectricity then and only then will we know something.&nbsp; What do you thin=
k does someone finally understand it ??? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" sty=
le=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial=
" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If so they are probably the only ones on the planet th=
at do.&nbsp; If so that&nbsp; means&nbsp; all that is being taught is </FONT=
><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMIL=
Y=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>totally incorrect. If so that is the end of electrical e=
ngineering as we know it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Regards,</B><BR>
<BR>
Terry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <17a.1749db61.2b8ec794 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:44:52 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Co_operation gets it done!!
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In a message dated 2/26/03 6:47:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dwight2_s yahoo.com writes:

          Sir  You may have just made many enemy's because your forcing them 
as I have been attempting to possibly totally reexamining our basically non 
functioning,  totally counter productive inadequate edu. System. Plus you 
state it far better than I can. I intend with ever fiber in my being if I'm 
able to create a possible major new evolutionary CO. 

I intend to attempt to totally turn around Corp. and EDU. Thinking to a 
situation that may make some sense for once. Corp. hate me now because I been 
able to make fools out of them. I used their Giant Ego's against them to the 
point they filed 28 complaints with the State of Mich. Accusing me of 
stealing their identity's Because I used the Chief Scientist of the Delphi/GM 
Corp mail. That  said he did not understand any of the new Tech. situations 
we showed him. To gain creditability across the planet 

WE will have Corp. funded Schools in time for all where only creative 
thinking and free thought will be taught and a math and science based 
situation that does not require mandatory subjects to be taken.  No one will 
be forced to take a subject that they have no desire to take.

 Personally I had no interest in math in school. Or Auto Mechanics witch was 
offered then or wood, metal shop Which was also offered here in the 50's. 
This where community Edu. was started By the visionary common sense thinking 
CS Mott The Billionaire Prime builder of GM.  Then the school system actually 
functioned because we had the best one. In America. They came from all over 
to see what we were doing correctly. It worked once it can work again.  AS 
Henry Ford had the correct idea It work once it can work again.      
> Jack,
> 
> I have only been on this list 2 days now, and like Blaird, I haven't 
> cared much for the slurs that have been bantied back and forth.There 
> are points that I must agree with though; regarding the educational 
> system, and the lack of possibility thinking in industry for the most 
> part.
> 
> Our school systems have turned into indoctrination systems. If you 
> want to pass the course, you learn whats taught, nevermind whether it 
> is correct or not. Never question the teacher, professor or material, 
> you are afterall after that sheep skin, and the almighty buck you 
> hope it will bring. How does this promote openmindedness and original 
> thinking?
> 
> Same goes with industry, if you have something they think they want, 
> you are pigeon holed where they want you to be, and can only advance 
> as long as it is by their guidlines, within the context of what they 
> want. Of course , the employer is paying the bill.
> 
> There are very few of us that are allowed to dream, and make a buck 
> from it.
> 
> I have seen and read enough to know that a technological utopia was 
> possible over 20 yrs ago. It seems that there isn't enough money or 
> control available in that though.
> 
> Ask yourselves why things like disc brakes that were available on 
> Tucker's autos in the 40's took till the mid sixties to be introduced 
> by the big three? This is just an example. Tucker was seen as a 
> threat and as a result was shut down. There was more then a fair bit 
> of innovation and revolutionary technology in those cars, so Tucker 
> wasn't allowed to compete.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/26/0=
3 6:47:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, dwight2_s yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Sir&nbsp; You may=20=
have just made many enemy's because your forcing them as I have been attempt=
ing to possibly totally reexamining our basically non functioning,&nbsp; tot=
ally counter productive inadequate edu. System. Plus you state it far better=
 than I can. I intend with ever fiber in my being if I'm able to create a po=
ssible major new evolutionary CO. <BR>
<BR>
I intend to attempt to totally turn around Corp. and EDU. Thinking to a situ=
ation that may make some sense for once. Corp. hate me now because I been ab=
le to make fools out of them. I used their Giant Ego's against them to the p=
oint they filed 28 complaints with the State of Mich. Accusing me of stealin=
g their identity's Because I used the Chief Scientist of the Delphi/GM Corp=20=
mail. That&nbsp; said he did not understand any of the new Tech. situations=20=
we showed him. To gain creditability across the planet <BR>
<BR>
WE will have Corp. funded Schools in time for all where only creative thinki=
ng and free thought will be taught and a math and science based situation th=
at does not require mandatory subjects to be taken.&nbsp; No one will be for=
ced to take a subject that they have no desire to take.<BR>
<BR>
 Personally I had no interest in math in school. Or Auto Mechanics witch was=
 offered then or wood, metal shop Which was also offered here in the 50's. T=
his where community Edu. was started By the visionary common sense thinking=20=
CS Mott The Billionaire Prime builder of GM.&nbsp; Then the school system ac=
tually functioned because we had the best one. In America. They came from al=
l over to see what we were doing correctly. It worked once it can work again=
.&nbsp; AS Henry Ford had the correct idea It work once it can work again.&n=
bsp;</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack,<BR>
<BR>
I have only been on this list 2 days now, and like Blaird, I haven't <BR>
cared much for the slurs that have been bantied back and forth.There <BR>
are points that I must agree with though; regarding the educational <BR>
system, and the lack of possibility thinking in industry for the most <BR>
part.<BR>
<BR>
Our school systems have turned into indoctrination systems. If you <BR>
want to pass the course, you learn whats taught, nevermind whether it <BR>
is correct or not. Never question the teacher, professor or material, <BR>
you are afterall after that sheep skin, and the almighty buck you <BR>
hope it will bring. How does this promote openmindedness and original <BR>
thinking?<BR>
<BR>
Same goes with industry, if you have something they think they want, <BR>
you are pigeon holed where they want you to be, and can only advance <BR>
as long as it is by their guidlines, within the context of what they <BR>
want. Of course , the employer is paying the bill.<BR>
<BR>
There are very few of us that are allowed to dream, and make a buck <BR>
from it.<BR>
<BR>
I have seen and read enough to know that a technological utopia was <BR>
possible over 20 yrs ago. It seems that there isn't enough money or <BR>
control available in that though.<BR>
<BR>
Ask yourselves why things like disc brakes that were available on <BR>
Tucker's autos in the 40's took till the mid sixties to be introduced <BR>
by the big three? This is just an example. Tucker was seen as a <BR>
threat and as a result was shut down. There was more then a fair bit <BR>
of innovation and revolutionary technology in those cars, so Tucker <BR>
wasn't allowed to compete.<BR>
<BR>
Something to think about.<BR>
<BR>
Ed<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 18:03:02 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: No subject was specified.
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You're right Ed, that response belonged off line.

OK, enough all ready! I have just one more thing to say to you Ed and 
anybody else who agrees with him, you need to read the book Useful 
Idiots. Dennis Prager interviewed the author yesterday. It's on the 
best seller list, so you won't have any trouble finding it.

It's them who have labeled themselves liberal, not me. If you don't 
like it, that's tough, they control academia, and the media, so good 
luck taking back the word.

As far as seeing the world in terms of black and white, I plead 
guilty. But think about this, what if I'm right? And I am!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 18:25:00 2003
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:25:19 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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 of a new
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>
>
>    TERRY  Current  contains many aspects we have a situation that uses 
> the unknown wasted Kinetic energy (frequency's) all ready
>
>> contained in the current. Now it is conducting the vast majority of 
>> the work and the Amp aspect is only now conducting a fraction of the 
>> work. 
>
>   So 400 watts can now conduct 3750 watts of work
>
>    The new process is creating magnetic  flux and plasma fields plus 
> drawing natural energy from the earth
>
>> which is free That is totally opposite of how it is understood 
>> now.    We have eliminated the power loss factor Call it what you 
>> want.  That is the first new electrical theory in a century.  The 
>> perfecter of A/C  Nicola Tesla said if we ever understand electricity 
>> then and only then will we know something.  What do you think does 
>> someone finally understand it ??? 
>
>
>
>     If so they are probably the only ones on the planet that do.  If 
> so that  means  all that is being taught is
>
>> totally incorrect. If so that is the end of electrical engineering as 
>> we know it.     
>

Yes, well, I understand a lot more than you think.  I have a degree in 
Electrical Engineering from Georgia Tech; but, that did not close my 
mind.  In 1973 I took a course in Philosophy (actually Epistemology). 
 We were required to write a paper on someone who had advanced 
scientific knowledge.  I chose Nikola Tesla because he seemed to be an 
intriguing individual.  I spent far more hours investigating NT than 
most people did on their papers.  This is where I first learned about 
longitudinal wave propagation.  I related to the man because his 
inventions were all inspired.  As with NT, my solutions to engineering 
problems sometimes seem to come out of the blue.  Tesla's design of AC 
motors and generators was literally inspired by a vision he received 
while sitting on a park bench.  He SAW the fields of the rotor chasing 
the fields of the stator.  He sold his patent rights to George 
Westinghouse for $1 per hp for every motor and generator that George 
sold.  George fucked him.  He never received any money for that 
invention.  He kicked Thomas Edison's ass when AC generators were chosen 
for the Niagra Falls generating system.  Unfortunately, his system was 
also chosen to electrically execute a criminal (hello, mr. sparky!). 
 This hurt Tesla immensely.

Tesla also claimed to have the secret to longitudinal (as opposed to 
transverse) EM wave propagation.  He claimed that he could resonate the 
fields of the Earth to a point that he could destroy our planet.  He 
drove a car that apparently tapped the ZPE because it required no gas. 
 He said that he could provide a "death ray" which would knock planes 
out of the sky.  He said that he could generate electricity, free 
energy, which would only require that someone build an elevated ball in 
order to receive that energy.  Westinghouse ceased funding for that 
project when he realized there was no way to meter and charge for that 
energy.

Tesla died a pauper.  I received a C on my paper declaring NT a genius.

Are you familiar with Tom Bearden?  He would agree that your claims are 
possibly genuine.  He presently is one of the holders of a patent on the 
MEG, the motionless electromagnetic generator.  His claims are not 
unlike your own.  Although, Tom is much maligned, I maintain an open 
mind that his invention just might work; although, efforts at 
reproduction have resulted in questionable results.  But there is merit 
in his claims that Maxwell's quaternion equations (simplified by 
Heaviside) reveal a potential source of free energy.

My point to you is that your are wasting your time.  You are also 
wasting the time of this list.  I am serious about Dr. Puthoff.  You 
demonstrate your device to him and he has a resource which can bring 
billions of real dollars to bear on the invention.  No shit!  But right 
now you are annoying a lot of people.  You will get nowhere pursuing 
your present course.  It's time to puthoff or shutoff.

Regards,

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 19:30:01 2003
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:27:27 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Betatron Antigravity Doughnut
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Frederick Spaber posted;

>
>
>This hypothesis leads to the conclusion drawn from the SR "Twin 
>Paradox" that  the
>quarks see electrons that we calculate as moving through a wire at a 
>fraction of a
>cm/second as though they are sped up to enormous velocity.
>
>As counterintuitive as it may sound, a betatron with a radius of 
>about 10 meters or
>so, with a circling beam of 1.0 Gev electrons (RTD = 2,000) at about 
>20 milliamperes,
>requiring a 3.4 kilogauss magnetic containment field, could "see" the earth's
>hypocharge and effect an antigravity force of ~ 100 tonnes.
>
>There's about 20 Megawatts of energy invested in the beam, plus 
>synchrotron radiation
>loss, and the magnetic field.
>

This goes right over my head!

So, Is this the device that Paul Le Baron is proposing? 20 megawatts 
is a lot of power, but not unobtainable, and a 100 tons of force!

The Twin Paradox? Is this the postulate that if you had two twins and 
sent on on a voyage at a speed, which was a significant percentage if 
the speed of light, then he would return to find his twin an old man, 
while he was still young? What has that got to do with how the quarks 
see electrons?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 19:51:26 2003
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:49:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Harold he says i should see you THe end of a age and The beginning of a new 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Why dont you just get out of the program dude: you
aint needed.  HDN

DUDE: Eastern pretender of a Cowboy: derogatory
comment used by 1850's western folk.

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 20:13:33 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:10:50 EST
Subject: Re: Harold he says i should see you THe end of a age and The beginning of a n...
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Dude I'm  new Sheriff in town things are going to change because I'm starting 
a new program   It is called the entire equation of knowledge That is 
apparently something you do not have dude.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 26 20:35:51 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:03:34 EST
Subject: The list does not want to learn anything is that what your saying ???
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          This list does not want to learn anything?  You should have 
received an A on your paper. Tesla was converting neutrinos with the car. 
Which is the same thing Steven Greer is doing with his device? There is only 
one problem the unit will be radioactive in 2500 years. Because it converts 
radiant energy 

Tesla  knew that and that car Tech situation came from his 1899 notes. 
Bearded in an only in a starting stage.  It will not be viable.  Peter 
Linderman and I agreed on the phone  we would not have patented it. The Death 
Ray is understood but I'm not going to discuss it. Tesla we think let 
Westinghouse off the hook. on the agreement. 

 The key is using Tacyons  CadCam for that device is currently being done and 
computer stress testing is next. Tacyons   are  what cause our gravity and 
along with neutrinos  are emitted by stars.  Use them only not convert them 
and leave neutrinos alone and let them do as they are now. 

 Which is providing a power source that your body is converting into 
electricity that in turns causes the chemical reactions? Plus inter acts with 
the iron deposits which in turn cause our Natural Magnetic fields. And Also 
provides the power source for the core of the planet. If I' correct  I just 
rendered main stream knowledge back to a Stone age level.  Witch creates a 
question why are talking about what may be totally worthless knowledge.

 This knowledge came from experiments  not  Maxwell's math theory   Please 
that is not worth the paper it is written on and there are new equations to 
back up that statement. But your not going to see them until about 2050. Now 
you have something to do for the next 50 years. I gave you the answers now 
you can figure out to arrive at those awswers. It is called problem solving.  
 

But you will see visual demos that proves them as you can today with phase 
conversion. I may own the country club but I would not join it. I cannot 
stand those types. Because you cannot learn anything from them. All they know 
is theory. Give me an invention that I can profit from. WHEN is the last time 
someone made a nickel off theory?             

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; This list does not want to learn anything?&=
nbsp; You should have received an A on your paper. Tesla was converting neut=
rinos with the car. Which is the same thing Steven Greer is doing with his d=
evice? There is only one problem the unit will be radioactive in 2500 years.=
 Because it converts radiant energy <BR>
<BR>
Tesla&nbsp; knew that and that car Tech situation came from his 1899 notes.=20=
Bearded in an only in a starting stage.&nbsp; It will not be viable.&nbsp; P=
eter Linderman and I agreed on the phone&nbsp; we would not have patented it=
. The Death Ray is understood but I'm not going to discuss it. Tesla we thin=
k let Westinghouse off the hook. on the agreement. <BR>
<BR>
 The key is using Tacyons&nbsp; CadCam for that device is currently being do=
ne and computer stress testing is next. Tacyons&nbsp;&nbsp; are&nbsp; what c=
ause our gravity and along with neutrinos&nbsp; are emitted by stars.&nbsp;=20=
Use them only not convert them and leave neutrinos alone and let them do as=20=
they are now. <BR>
<BR>
 Which is providing a power source that your body is converting into electri=
city that in turns causes the chemical reactions? Plus inter acts with the i=
ron deposits which in turn cause our Natural Magnetic fields. And Also provi=
des the power source for the core of the planet. If I' correct&nbsp; I just=20=
rendered main stream knowledge back to a Stone age level.&nbsp; Witch create=
s a question why are talking about what may be totally worthless knowledge.<=
BR>
<BR>
 This knowledge came from experiments&nbsp; not&nbsp; Maxwell's math theory&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Please that is not worth the paper it is written on and there ar=
e new equations to back up that statement. But your not going to see them un=
til about 2050. Now you have something to do for the next 50 years. I gave y=
ou the answers now you can figure out to arrive at those awswers. It is call=
ed problem solving.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
But you will see visual demos that proves them as you can today with phase c=
onversion. I may own the country club but I would not join it. I cannot stan=
d those types. Because you cannot learn anything from them. All they know is=
 theory. Give me an invention that I can profit from. WHEN is the last time=20=
someone made a nickel off theory?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 00:14:38 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 02:13:20 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: a problem for you to solve terry
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: a problem for you to solve
terry</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">In a message
dated 2/26/03 5:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:</font><br>
<font face="Arial" size="-1"></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">When you can
drastically reduce current draw 75% for any given situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ackshully, there is nothing abnormal about this.&nbsp; Ideally, the
phase<br>
current is given by the line current divided by 3e-2 or 0.58 in a
three<br>
phase delta configuration.&nbsp; Given an phase conversion efficiency
of 77%,<br>
your line current would reduce by exactly 75%.<br>
<br>
So, what is all the fuss about?<br>
<br>
Terry Blanton, BEE, PE (which, I assume, makes me one of the
scoundrels)<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<b> 75% reduction&nbsp; translates to 9 amps from a 110 V feed
causing 12 to 15 HP of 3 phase equipment to be operational under load&nbsp;
not just running&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The equation that
explains that is &quot; ELECTRON FLOW without CREATING AN
EMF&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TERRY ARE YOU NOW LOST. ?&nbsp;&nbsp; that
is high&nbsp; EFF&nbsp; only&nbsp; forget enerything
else.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLEASE EXPLAIN&nbsp;&nbsp; how
that can happen assuning&nbsp; for discussion purposes&nbsp; only it
is happening&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now i can explain the concept can
you evenaccomplish that.&nbsp; 99.99999999999999% Says no&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
You cannot&nbsp;&nbsp; Understand your paid to to be able to explain
that it is the prime requirement of your job that they pay you
for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Remember colleges have seen it
operational Do you want call one. ???/</b></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>So, now you're saying that 9 amps at 125Vinput will drive a 12 to
15 HP motor. According to my tables, a 10 Hp motor will consume 28
amps and a 15 HP motor will consume 42 amps at 240 V 3 phase. This
would be impressive if you can do it. I'd like to see a demonstration
using a motor with a load on it. Of course, it would be a lot easier
to use a bank of lights, or a water heater. If you are willing to
demonstrate that, I may be able to get one of my associates to pay for
the trip.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>For your information, I work as an electrician. Put up, or shut
up!</div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 00:25:04 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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>Terry Blanton Posted;
>
>Tesla also claimed to have the secret to longitudinal (as opposed to 
>transverse) EM wave propagation.  He claimed that he could resonate 
>the fields of the Earth to a point that he could destroy our planet. 
>He drove a car that apparently tapped the ZPE because it required no 
>gas. He said that he could provide a "death ray" which would knock 
>planes out of the sky.  He said that he could generate electricity, 
>free energy, which would only require that someone build an elevated 
>ball in order to receive that energy.  Westinghouse ceased funding 
>for that project when he realized there was no way to meter and 
>charge for that energy.

Great post Terry! What can you tell us about how to generate these waves?


>  It's time to puthoff or shutoff.


Couldn't have put it better myself.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 00:31:40 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: takyons and neutrinos
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Jack Carey was ranting on again about Takyons and Neutrinos.

As I told Hal Puthoff, I like this theory, because it agrees with the 
Zitternbewegung, he can't tell the difference.

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 07:20:41 -0600
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You can do 12 HP with 9 amps at 120 volts, 3 phase, if you have a Power Factor(Pf)of
4.76, Terry.

577.35*8.95 kw/(volts* Pf) = amps/leg

577.35*8.95/(120*4.76) = 9.0 amps. :-)

Note: Pf = cosine of the phase angle, which is normally 34.9 degrees for a Pf of 0.82.
See;

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/powfac.html

http://cipco.apogee.net/foe/frwt.asp

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm

Regards,

Frederick

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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>You can do 12 HP with 9 amps at 120 volts, 3 phase, if you have a Power Factor(Pf)of
>4.76, Terry.
>
>577.35*8.95 kw/(volts* Pf) = amps/leg
>
>577.35*8.95/(120*4.76) = 9.0 amps. :-)
>
>Note: Pf = cosine of the phase angle, which is normally 34.9 degrees for a Pf of 0.82.
>See;
>
>http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/powfac.html
>
>http://cipco.apogee.net/foe/frwt.asp
>
>http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm
>
>Regards,
>
>Frederick
>

If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single phase 
into a phase convertor with a 3 phase delta output.

Terry

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In a message dated 2/27/03 3:15:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> So, now you're saying that 9 amps at 125Vinput will drive a 12 to 15 HP 
> motor. According to my tables, a 10 Hp motor will consume 28 amps and a 15 
> HP motor will consume 42 amps at 240 V 3 phase. This would be impressive if 
> you can do it. I'd like to see a demonstration using a motor with a load on 
> it. Of course, it would be a lot easier to use a bank of lights, or a water 
> heater. If you are willing to demonstrate that, I may be able to get one of 
> my associates to pay for the trip.
>                           NO   I though I was specific but did leave out 
> the word combination  but let me correct that  I'm not perfect Like you 
> think you are  So here is a clarification   IT will power several pieces of 
> equipment that together total that amount as the Pub. story stated  but 
> apparently  you cannot read or if you can you cannot understand what you 
> read .

  WE are not going to buy a bank of lights or a water heater Bring it with 
you or pay us for them because your requesting them if it makes you happy.    
It is not > necessary in the first place LOOK we demo real world situations 
> That is what Infinite Energy saw.  If that is not good enough for you  
> WHATEVER   You will see a two HP unit causing 6 HP of three phase work from 
> 220   

    You cannot stall the 3 phase motor under a heavy load where in normal 
cases you can. That does not relate to your > world it is totally opposite. 
> Your attempting to use your world to understand and explain the process 
> that is a total waste of time on your part. And is where everybody makes 
> there GLARING mistake when they attempt that. But 98% of the time they will 
> not listen They know it all as your appear you think you do.  If so you do 
> not know squat.Your electrical experence is not going to help you at all in 
> this case.   

    BECAUSE this situation is just the opposite. It has no relation to your 
base of knowledge PERIOD But do as you wish > I care less.  I do not have time 
> for your combative attitude that your displaying to cover up your lack of 
> understand of a new situation. I do not get that attitude frpn BUS Types. 
> Witch is all I care to deal with. If your one of those fine If not Do not 
> waste my time.  It is plain to see the operational  aspects  proves the new 
> evolutionary theory without Meters. SIMPLE it preforms or it does not. 
> THere are NO NO inbetweens Witch is what you looking for. THEY do not Exist 
>  

   The 110 to 3 phase demo Infinite and colleges saw has been disassemble 
because the Developer died. For security > purposes Plus the one we show is a 
> plug in not a direct wire one. AS the other was So it is portable With new 
> engineering advances plus there is one that is a pre production unit. both 
> are the less advanced 220 The 110 is the most advanced tech. wise. WE do 
> not show that because it has been disassembled and move to a not disclosed 
> location. But the 220 unit still proves the new theory witch is all that is 
> necessary. To accomplish.    
> 
> For your information, I work as an electrician. Put up, or shut up! 

   Apparently  your in the sand lot league as far as knowledge and we are in 
the Majors. Sand Lot' players  Do not have clue one > about the majors so to 
> speak and cannot imagine being in that league. But think they are know it 
> all experts about that league  In the next mail you willl see a major deal 
> proposal from over seas If you not in that league then you would be wasting 
> your time. If you are prove it. And I will look at it.  
> 


--part1_194.15e37022.2b8f80ab_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 3:15:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">So, now you're saying that 9 am=
ps at 125Vinput will drive a 12 to 15 HP motor. According to my tables, a 10=
 Hp motor will consume 28 amps and a 15 HP motor will consume 42 amps at 240=
 V 3 phase. This would be impressive if you can do it. I'd like to see a dem=
onstration using a motor with a load on it. Of course, it would be a lot eas=
ier to use a bank of lights, or a water heater. If you are willing to demons=
trate that, I may be able to get one of my associates to pay for the trip.<B=
R>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp=
; NO&nbsp;&nbsp; I though I was specific but did leave out the word combinat=
ion&nbsp; but let me correct that&nbsp; I'm not perfect Like you think you a=
re&nbsp; So here is a clarification&nbsp;&nbsp; IT will power several pieces=
 of equipment that together total that amount as the Pub. story stated&nbsp;=
 but apparently&nbsp; you cannot read or if you can you cannot understand wh=
at you read .</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><B=
R>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; WE are not going to b=
uy a bank of lights or a water heater Bring it with you or pay us for them b=
ecause your requesting them if it makes you happy.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is n=
ot <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-L=
EFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">necessary in the first place=
 LOOK we demo real world situations That is what Infinite Energy saw.&nbsp;=20=
If that is not good enough for you&nbsp; WHATEVER&nbsp;&nbsp; You will see a=
 two HP unit causing 6 HP of three phase work from 220&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><F=
ONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You canno=
t stall the 3 phase motor under a heavy load where in normal cases you can.=20=
That does not relate to your <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #=
0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">wo=
rld it is totally opposite. Your attempting to use your world to understand=20=
and explain the process that is a total waste of time on your part. And is w=
here everybody makes there GLARING mistake when they attempt that. But 98% o=
f the time they will not listen They know it all as your appear you think yo=
u do.&nbsp; If so you do not know squat.Your electrical experence is not goi=
ng to help you at all in this case.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000=
00" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BECAUSE t=
his situation is just the opposite. It has no relation to your base of knowl=
edge PERIOD But do as you wish <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">=
I care less.&nbsp; I do not have time for your combative attitude that your=20=
displaying to cover up your lack of understand of a new situation. I do not=20=
get that attitude frpn BUS Types. Witch is all I care to deal with. If your=20=
one of those fine If not Do not waste my time.&nbsp; It is plain to see the=20=
operational&nbsp; aspects&nbsp; proves the new evolutionary theory without M=
eters. SIMPLE it preforms or it does not. THere are NO NO inbetweens Witch i=
s what you looking for. THEY do not Exist&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000=
00" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; The 110 to 3 ph=
ase demo Infinite and colleges saw has been disassemble because the Develope=
r died. For security <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2=
px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">purposes P=
lus the one we show is a plug in not a direct wire one. AS the other was So=20=
it is portable With new engineering advances plus there is one that is a pre=
 production unit. both are the less advanced 220 The 110 is the most advance=
d tech. wise. WE do not show that because it has been disassembled and move=20=
to a not disclosed location. But the 220 unit still proves the new theory wi=
tch is all that is necessary. To accomplish.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
For your information, I work as an electrician. Put up, or shut up! </FONT><=
FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Apparently&nbsp=
; your in the sand lot league as far as knowledge and we are in the Majors.=20=
Sand Lot' players&nbsp; Do not have clue one <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px">about the majors so to speak and cannot imagine being in tha=
t league. But think they are know it all experts about that league&nbsp; In=20=
the next mail you willl see a major deal proposal from over seas If you not=20=
in that league then you would be wasting your time. If you are prove it. And=
 I will look at it.&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_194.15e37022.2b8f80ab_boundary--

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Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
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You can do 12 HP with 9 amps at 120 volts, 3 phase, if you have a Power Factor(Pf)of
4.76, Terry.

577.35*8.95 kw/(volts* Pf) = amps/leg

577.35*8.95/(120*4.76) = 9.0 amps. :-)

Note: Pf = cosine of the phase angle, which is normally 34.9 degrees for a Pf of 0.82.
See;

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/powfac.html

http://cipco.apogee.net/foe/frwt.asp

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm

Regards,

Frederick

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>You can do 12 HP with 9 amps at 120 volts, 3 phase, if you have a Power Factor(Pf)of
>4.76, Terry.
>
>577.35*8.95 kw/(volts* Pf) = amps/leg
>
>577.35*8.95/(120*4.76) = 9.0 amps. :-)
>
>Note: Pf = cosine of the phase angle, which is normally 34.9 degrees for a Pf of 0.82.
>See;
>
>http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/powfac.html
>
>http://cipco.apogee.net/foe/frwt.asp
>
>http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/flamtrcharts.htm
>
>Regards,
>
>Frederick
>

If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single phase 
into a phase convertor with a 3 phase delta output.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 08:02:29 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:55:40 EST
Subject: Major deal proposal  SEE  Tom BIG Technology BIG Business 
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> Dear Jack,       IF your on this level TOM  I'm interested  This is in your 
> face. And probably far above your league Plus they do not cop an attitude 
> like you do  And because it is in your know it all face you will probably 
> come back with snide closed  narrow minded judgmental remarks. Witch is 
> about all i have seen from you.  

    The Scientific ones 99% of the time do not understand Bus. This is how 
world level Business players play. 
> AS long as a situation functions as advertised. Is all they care about. They 
> care less how.  Smart people investigate   arrogant fools just cop an 
> attitude with the I'm a world expert attitude.  

    How dare you question me I have this degree and that degree that says I 
am one.  My response  is stick them > where the sun does not shine because I 
> have technology you cannot explain. That I know of and if you cannot those 
> degrees are worthless. Main stream science because of their combative 
> attitudes created my reaction responses. I never act I only react to an 
> action. 

   I have the advantage on them It is called knowledge. That was not learned 
by reading a book. Because that 
> is not where you find knowledge. It comes from experience. That is the only 
> way you can obtain it. Main stream science will never figure that one out.  
>  

   The only thing they understand is spouting off what someone fed them. That 
is why they cannot evolve.  
> Now The Game plan is create a major Co. Use that bases to crush main stream 
> science. Then create a new Science community that is invention based not 
> theory based. THis mail indicates I have the ability to accomplish that 
> goal.    
> 
> Thanks again for your time yesterday.  No doubt you have spent a lot of 
> time investigating the economic ramifications of this technology, and have 
> identified numerous reasons why both energy groups and government 
> institutions see this as a threat to economic stability.  In fact I do 
> believe in the recent U.S. "Home Protection Laws" just past that it 
> includes items directly related to energy and economy.  From other contacts 
> we have in the U.S. this is of grave concern for them.  I suggest you 
> investigate this further.  Such laws were strongly opposed here in 
> ----deleted---- and never made it through parliament, but that is not to 
> say the government did not try.
> 
> All the things you are talking about match our long term objectives.  
> Primarily we see these as a stepping stone process over the next decade.  
> That being the roll out of a new clean energy technology, this would then 
> facilitate the revenue for the medical and transport technology.
> 
> You could say I am a futurist.  I see where this technology could take us, 
> and am prepared to assist any in this field to get beyond our current 
> "downward spiral" consumer orientated, destuction dependant lifestyle we 
> have in the west.  Total independence and personal responsibility is the 
> key.  That means personal medical, energy and basic consumables.
>     REPLY   You can see the big picture But because of the current state of 
> the civilization and the projected 8 billion by 2020.  Witch is a 33% 
> increase that unknown factor adds a complete different set of circumstances 
> to the equation that we have to take into account.  That situation creates 
> a compounding effect far more dramatic than the doubling from 1965 to now 


   Because of current population concentration factors and land usage 
dynamics. Few can comprehend that 
> level of change. In the US we could stop burning fossil fuels by 2012 
> without any adverse economy effects. But they will tell you that is to 
> short of a period of time.  But When run the economy  numbers through a 
> super computer it  will tell you it is posible.         


> From a business perspective there are procedures to follow.  I operate as 
> the point man for this group, with a clear objective, and that is to find 
> an obtain licensing deals for existing, working alternate energy products.  
> We are extremely interested in future development.  YES.  That after all is 
> our overall objective.  To establish a business model that facilitates 
> development and growth of these new technologies.  With the deployment of 
> our first range of energy producing products we will establish a lab 
> compromised of a selected group of researchers from around the world.  This 
> group will be expanded as the projects expand.

>      REPLY  WE will also have an R&D situation of our own. full of Russians  
> Our core CO will be totally private and never be public. But the holding 
> CO's may be.Plus a School of advanced learning that no one wil be able to 
> compete with that I know of  
> The   -- Deleted---   Energy industry alone is a $64billion ($US -- deteted 
> --     Billion) Industry.  Our aim would be to capture 5% of this market 
> within the first 2 years of operation. $3.2billion.  We already have the 
> Commercial and Private customer base, billing system and infrastructure to 
> achieve this goal.  All we require is the product.
> 
> The Fibre Optic technology is of interest, and we are capable of bringing 
> this technology to a global market.  We already have a group of switching 
> products we manufacture and market directly to global communication 
> companies, this technology drasticaly reduces the costs involved in cross 
> company communications. I.e. A Call from -----deleted--- to Germany goes 
> through a number of Telco providers.  This technology selects the cheapest 
> route at the appropriate time.  However right now, this is a secondary 
> concern, and at best would be initiated as a parallel project.
>    REPLY RIGHT now it is our prime 
> I understand you have a new energy product you are working on, and that is 
> great.  From a business perspective this would not be suitable for our 
> first "model". We would need to allocate time for refinement, testing, Q&A 
> etc.  Bringing a revolutionary product from the drawing board to market is 
> at minimum a 12 month process.  If it can be done faster that is fine, but 
> it is a risk that is not necessary, therefore will not be taken as the 
> first step.

>      REPLY Because of the short period of time involved we are looking GD at 
> this point in time as being  the prime objective 

> In this case our strategy would be as follows, and you are uniquely 
> positioned to benefit from this.
> 
> 1. Validation of the phase convertor technology. Local replication an 
> dproduction of Model.1.
> 2. Implement the phase convertor technology into a local council community. 
> (I.e. an energy Feedback system utilizing existing infrastructure, to 
> supplement a communities energy usage)
> 3. Expansion of the technology for commercial use.
> 4. Expansion of the technology for private household use.*

>          Reply   That is somewhat of a premature call after only one phone 
> call.  Because you have not spoken with the Techs as of yet.  But I 
> understand why you stated it and this mail is very well done and very 
> impressive     If Phase conversion is manufactured we will conducting that 
> here to start The Tech aspects only stay will us. 


   WE want to move the new Fiber optic Manufacturing process first.  Before 
any energy technologies They are 
> like playing with a blast furnace with no clothes on. Because of the 
> dramatic change in understanding that takes time to get use to. It sounds 
> good in theory but actually causing  world wide reactions with a main 
> stream verified product on the phase conversions level is an entire 
> different story than what it sounds like. 


    Main stream can only say it functions as advertised they are clueless how 
it functions. And it has to be 
> presented as it  will help the power co. by relieving demand.  because it 
> hooks to their grid supply. You have to play it down because it hooks to 
> the grid. 


  Plus several years it had a feedback capability that had to be stopped.  
Because of the free natural added 
> power it drew from the earth it cooked power co. transformers and they got a 
> law passed in 5 days banning him from selling them. 


      Whereas gravity drive is independent from the grid all together that is 
how you totally beat them at there own > game. They cannot do anything like 
> get laws passed because it does  not involved with them in any way Think 
> about it.  Your going to have all kinds of problems when your dealing with 
> the power CO 


   You own the current after it passes through your meter but they do not 
look at it that way. They will scream 
> your stealing power from them. The scientific  community because they cannot 
> explain will scream  it creates strange effects that may be dangerous to 
> humans.  because there creditability is on the line without that they have 
> zero  The problem with phase conversion is opens up a whole can of worms.   
> GD does not because it makes an entire new statement It is not associated 
> with anything. Think about it ??/     


    Sorry about the confusion. I was not exactly aware of the Tech. aspects 
of the Fiber optic last night.  That can be presented to > fiber optic 
> manufactures through your situation. You have first shot at it. Your 
> situation can be  our first licensee and in turn license it to manufactures 
> Plus we get royalties       

> * By stage 4.  It is envisaged that the new GD (gravity drive) technology is 
> available. The GD technology would be funded additional investment and by 
> the revenue obtained from stage 2 and 3.
>         
> This method of progression facilitates a number of things.
> 1. It establishes publicly the validity of the technology.
> 2. It establishes a working relationship between the development group and 
> the production group.
> 3. It enables a more discrete, technology progression. The use of standard 
> "Approved" Generators to connect to the grid.  The method derived to turn 
> the generator is irrelevant.
> 4. It proves the capabilities of the development group, boosting confidence 
> and support, which will be vital for future development. (Once you have a 
> real world working model out in the market producing energy and a revenue 
> stream, private investors will be all over you clamoring for a piece of the 
> action.)
> 5. Regardless of your activities in the U.S. this is an independent 
> program, giving you something to fall back on should unseen forces move to 
> prevent your progress in your own region.
> 6. Minimal financial exposure to both yourself and the manufacturer. 
>    REPLY  WE CAN manufacture anything ourselfs
> In all honesty Jack, right now, what your telling me sounds too good to be 
> true.  You are the exact type of group we have been looking for, a group we 
> can see a long term future with.  We share the same vision.  We need to 
> solidify any relationship not only for our benefit but for yours also.  You 
> dont want to get tied up with a group that cannot go all the way, or who is 
> incapable of cutting through the bureaucracy and actually able to bring a 
> product to market.  On our side, we hear a lot of talk about theories and 
> potential products, but we need a development group who is capable of 
> actually producing a working piece of technology, that is verifiable, and 
> able to be replicated and implemented.  If you have a working product, 
> capable of generating excess energy from input,
> 
    REPLY   WE  all ready deal will world level players WE just sent off an E 
mail packade to a group of Billionaires today     THis is where your missing 
it     Phase conversion does not generate excess. Now the wasted aspects of 
the draw factor are all used and those currently wasted aspects become  the 
prime driver that causes the majority of work to be.conducted  And now the 
prime driver which is AMPs only preforms  a fraction of there previously work 
load.  It is just the opposite of what it  is now.   

then the commericalisation of that product is our first step.  I can tell you 
now, it will be impossible for me to convince 
> the guys funding this otherwise.
> 
  REPLY  It is not worth our time to produce at this point But we will 
discuss it   Because of the science fiction level giant step gravity drive   
WE at this point want to use  it  to prove we can produce totally world 
changing Tech. Situations. Light years beyond anything because it causes 
drastic reductions in power usage at 75% levels. Naturally that is a major 
change But our vantage point currently is far different than yours  Let us 
bring you up to our levels first. Which is an entire different furturistic 
world than you have knowledge of at this point   

WE feel the key is science cannot argue with gravity drive in any way.  But 
your welcome to disagree     Because it is such a dramatic statement You need 
to get into this in more detail before making diffient calls. Once your more 
knowledgeable. then you start looking at calls. Because it is all new at this 
point But your welcome to disagree But The world needs to be woken up like 
never before.  With gravity drive we have far simpler usage application 
situations. 

Whereas application aspects with phase conversion are far more complex.  Plus 
it requires to hooked to current.  They said they wanted the impossinle what 
they call FE.   Now it appears they are going to get one   Once those 
dynamics are explained you should understand. Better. When you are dealing 
with entire new situations that requires an entire new realm of thinking 
also.  Now if I do not make sense tell me i do not then prove it to me .  No 
one is always correct in there asumptions     

Our group is ready to move now, and we have a number of options to progress 
with.  You however have something the 
> others do not.  A product that is capable of immediate implementation.  
> Secondly your broad technology range (especially the medical) is of massive 
> interest.  Like I said, you fit the bill perfectly for a long term partner, 
> to us, this is just the beginning.  We can put your technology to work, so 
> you can always say to other potential investors "Look, they are using our 
> technology in -------deleted--- right now, producing energy and revenue, go 
> see for yourself."  I'm sure you can understand the benefit of this.  We 
> would b happy to assist you in any way to obtain additional funding for 
> further advancement.  The goal here is to succeed at what we do, and that 
> means running a tight smart business.
> 
> Fell free to call or email me any time.  I look forward to your response.
> 
> Regards
> 
>       ----deleted----
> T.R.S.I. ------deleted----
> Technology Research Support Initiative
> -------delted-----PTY LTD
    deleted 
>     deleted   -9308-4363 (Home Number)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> IF your on this level TOM&nbsp; I'm interested&nbsp; This=
 is in your face. And probably far above your league Plus they do not cop an=
 attitude like you do&nbsp; And because it is in your know it all face you w=
ill probably come back with snide closed&nbsp; narrow minded judgmental rema=
rks. Witch is about all i have seen from you.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#=
000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FA=
CE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> The Sc=
ientific ones 99% of the time do not understand Bus. This is how world level=
 Business players play. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-=
COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B>=
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>AS long as a situation functions as advertised. Is all t=
hey care about. They care less how.&nbsp; Smart people investigate&nbsp;&nbs=
p; arrogant fools just cop an attitude with the I'm a world expert attitude.=
&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>How da=
re you question me I have this degree and that degree that says I am one.&nb=
sp; My response&nbsp; is stick them <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:=20=
5px">where the sun does not shine because I have technology you cannot expla=
in. That I know of and if you cannot those degrees are worthless. Main strea=
m science because of their combative attitudes created my reaction responses=
. I never act I only react to an action. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" sty=
le=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial=
" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> I have the a=
dvantage on them It is called knowledge. That was not learned by reading a b=
ook. Because that </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>is not where you find knowledge. It comes from experienc=
e. That is the only way you can obtain it. Main stream science will never fi=
gure that one out.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACK=
GROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"=
0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>The only thi=
ng they understand is spouting off what someone fed them. That is why they c=
annot evolve.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLO=
R: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Now The Game plan is create a major Co. Use that bases t=
o crush main stream science. Then create a new Science community that is inv=
ention based not theory based. THis mail indicates I have the ability to acc=
omplish that goal.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
Thanks again for your time yesterday.&nbsp; No doubt you have spent a lot of=
 time investigating the economic ramifications of this technology, and have=20=
identified numerous reasons why both energy groups and government institutio=
ns see this as a threat to economic stability.&nbsp; In fact I do believe in=
 the recent U.S. "Home Protection Laws" just past that it includes items dir=
ectly related to energy and economy.&nbsp; From other contacts we have in th=
e U.S. this is of grave concern for them.&nbsp; I suggest you investigate th=
is further.&nbsp; Such laws were strongly opposed here in ----deleted---- an=
d never made it through parliament, but that is not to say the government di=
d not try.<BR>
<BR>
All the things you are talking about match our long term objectives.&nbsp; P=
rimarily we see these as a stepping stone process over the next decade.&nbsp=
; That being the roll out of a new clean energy technology, this would then=20=
facilitate the revenue for the medical and transport technology.<BR>
<BR>
You could say I am a futurist.&nbsp; I see where this technology could take=20=
us, and am prepared to assist any in this field to get beyond our current "d=
ownward spiral" consumer orientated, destuction dependant lifestyle we have=20=
in the west.&nbsp; Total independence and personal responsibility is the key=
.&nbsp; That means personal medical, energy and basic consumables.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; You can see the big picture But beca=
use of the current state of the civilization and the projected 8 billion by=20=
2020.&nbsp; Witch is a 33% increase that unknown factor adds a complete diff=
erent set of circumstances to the equation that we have to take into account=
.&nbsp; That situation creates a compounding effect far more dramatic than t=
he doubling from 1965 to now </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Because of current population concentration factors and land=
 usage dynamics. Few can comprehend that </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>level of change. In the US w=
e could stop burning fossil fuels by 2012 without any adverse economy effect=
s. But they will tell you that is to short of a period of time.&nbsp; But Wh=
en run the economy&nbsp; numbers through a super computer it&nbsp; will tell=
 you it is posible.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQ=
UOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">From a business perspective the=
re are procedures to follow.&nbsp; I operate as the point man for this group=
, with a clear objective, and that is to find an obtain licensing deals for=20=
existing, working alternate energy products.&nbsp; We are extremely interest=
ed in future development.&nbsp; YES.&nbsp; That after all is our overall obj=
ective.&nbsp; To establish a business model that facilitates development and=
 growth of these new technologies.&nbsp; With the deployment of our first ra=
nge of energy producing products we will establish a lab compromised of a se=
lected group of researchers from around the world.&nbsp; This group will be=20=
expanded as the projects expand.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REP=
LY&nbsp; WE will also have an R&amp;D situation of our own. full of Russians=
&nbsp; Our core CO will be totally private and never be public. But the hold=
ing CO's may be.Plus a School of advanced learning that no one wil be able t=
o compete with that I know of&nbsp; </B><BR>
The&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Deleted---&nbsp;&nbsp; Energy industry alone is a $64bill=
ion ($US -- deteted --&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Billion) Industry.&nbsp; Our=20=
aim would be to capture 5% of this market within the first 2 years of operat=
ion. $3.2billion.&nbsp; We already have the Commercial and Private customer=20=
base, billing system and infrastructure to achieve this goal.&nbsp; All we r=
equire is the product.<BR>
<BR>
The Fibre Optic technology is of interest, and we are capable of bringing th=
is technology to a global market.&nbsp; We already have a group of switching=
 products we manufacture and market directly to global communication compani=
es, this technology drasticaly reduces the costs involved in cross company c=
ommunications. I.e. A Call from -----deleted--- to Germany goes through a nu=
mber of Telco providers.&nbsp; This technology selects the cheapest route at=
 the appropriate time.&nbsp; However right now, this is a secondary concern,=
 and at best would be initiated as a parallel project.<BR>
&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY RIGHT now it is our prime </B><BR>
I understand you have a new energy product you are working on, and that is g=
reat.&nbsp; From a business perspective this would not be suitable for our f=
irst "model". We would need to allocate time for refinement, testing, Q&amp;=
A etc.&nbsp; Bringing a revolutionary product from the drawing board to mark=
et is at minimum a 12 month process.&nbsp; If it can be done faster that is=20=
fine, but it is a risk that is not necessary, therefore will not be taken as=
 the first step.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REP=
LY Because of the short period of time involved we are looking GD at this po=
int in time as being&nbsp; the prime objectiv</B>e </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In this case our strategy would=
 be as follows, and you are uniquely positioned to benefit from this.<BR>
<BR>
1. Validation of the phase convertor technology. Local replication an dprodu=
ction of Model.1.<BR>
2. Implement the phase convertor technology into a local council community.=20=
(I.e. an energy Feedback system utilizing existing infrastructure, to supple=
ment a communities energy usage)<BR>
3. Expansion of the technology for commercial use.<BR>
4. Expansion of the technology for private household use.*</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; That is somewhat of a premature call=20=
after only one phone call.&nbsp; Because you have not spoken with the Techs=20=
as of yet.&nbsp; But I understand why you stated it and this mail is very we=
ll done and very impressive&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If Phase conversion is m=
anufactured we will conducting that here to start The Tech aspects only stay=
 will us. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>WE want to move the new Fiber optic Manufacturing process fi=
rst.&nbsp; Before any energy technologies They are </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>like playing with a blast fu=
rnace with no clothes on. Because of the dramatic change in understanding th=
at takes time to get use to. It sounds good in theory but actually causing&n=
bsp; world wide reactions with a main stream verified product on the phase c=
onversions level is an entire different story than what it sounds like. </BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Main stream can only say it functions as advertised th=
ey are clueless how it functions. And it has to be </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>presented as it&nbsp; will h=
elp the power co. by relieving demand.&nbsp; because it hooks to their grid=20=
supply. You have to play it down because it hooks to the grid. </BLOCKQUOTE>=
<BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; <B>Plus several years it had a feedback capability that had to be sto=
pped.&nbsp; Because of the free natural added </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>power it drew from the earth=
 it cooked power co. transformers and they got a law passed in 5 days bannin=
g him from selling them. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Whereas gravity drive is independent from=20=
the grid all together that is how you totally beat them at there own <BLOCKQ=
UOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">game. They cannot do anything like get=
 laws passed because it does&nbsp; not involved with them in any way Think a=
bout it.&nbsp; Your going to have all kinds of problems when your dealing wi=
th the power CO </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</B><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>You own the current after it passes through your meter but t=
hey do not look at it that way. They will scream </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>your stealing power from the=
m. The scientific&nbsp; community because they cannot explain will scream&nb=
sp; it creates strange effects that may be dangerous to humans.&nbsp; becaus=
e there creditability is on the line without that they have zero&nbsp; The p=
roblem with phase conversion is opens up a whole can of worms.&nbsp;&nbsp; G=
D does not because it makes an entire new statement It is not associated wit=
h anything. Think about it ??/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Sorry about the confusion. I was not exactly aware of=20=
the Tech. aspects of the Fiber optic last night.&nbsp; That can be presented=
 to <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></B>f<B>iber optic manufact=
ures through your situation. You have first shot at it. Your situation can b=
e&nbsp; our first licensee and in turn license it to manufactures Plus we ge=
t royalties&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">* By stage 4.&nbsp; It is envis=
aged that the new GD (gravity drive) technology is available. The GD technol=
ogy would be funded additional investment and by the revenue obtained from s=
tage 2 and 3.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
This method of progression facilitates a number of things.<BR>
1. It establishes publicly the validity of the technology.<BR>
2. It establishes a working relationship between the development group and t=
he production group.<BR>
3. It enables a more discrete, technology progression. The use of standard "=
Approved" Generators to connect to the grid.&nbsp; The method derived to tur=
n the generator is irrelevant.<BR>
4. It proves the capabilities of the development group, boosting confidence=20=
and support, which will be vital for future development. (Once you have a re=
al world working model out in the market producing energy and a revenue stre=
am, private investors will be all over you clamoring for a piece of the acti=
on.)<BR>
5. Regardless of your activities in the U.S. this is an independent program,=
 giving you something to fall back on should unseen forces move to prevent y=
our progress in your own region.<BR>
6. Minimal financial exposure to both yourself and the manufacturer. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; WE CAN manufacture anything ourselfs</B><BR>
In all honesty Jack, right now, what your telling me sounds too good to be t=
rue.&nbsp; You are the exact type of group we have been looking for, a group=
 we can see a long term future with.&nbsp; We share the same vision.&nbsp; W=
e need to solidify any relationship not only for our benefit but for yours a=
lso.&nbsp; You dont want to get tied up with a group that cannot go all the=20=
way, or who is incapable of cutting through the bureaucracy and actually abl=
e to bring a product to market.&nbsp; On our side, we hear a lot of talk abo=
ut theories and potential products, but we need a development group who is c=
apable of actually producing a working piece of technology, that is verifiab=
le, and able to be replicated and implemented.&nbsp; If you have a working p=
roduct, capable of generating excess energy from input,<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; WE&nbsp; all ready deal will world l=
evel players WE just sent off an E mail packade to a group of Billionaires t=
oday&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THis is where your missing it&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Phase conversion does not generate excess. Now the wasted aspects of=20=
the draw factor are all used and those currently wasted aspects become&nbsp;=
 the prime driver that causes the majority of work to be.conducted&nbsp; And=
 now the prime driver which is AMPs only preforms&nbsp; a fraction of there=20=
previously work load.&nbsp; It is just the opposite of what it&nbsp; is now.=
&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
then the commericalisation of that product is our first step.&nbsp; I can te=
ll you now, it will be impossible for me to convince <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">the guys funding this otherwise=
.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; It is not worth our time to produce at this point But=20=
we will discuss it&nbsp;&nbsp; Because of the science fiction level giant st=
ep gravity drive&nbsp;&nbsp; WE at this point want to use&nbsp; it&nbsp; to=20=
prove we can produce totally world changing Tech. Situations. Light years be=
yond anything because it causes drastic reductions in power usage at 75% lev=
els. Naturally that is a major change But our vantage point currently is far=
 different than yours&nbsp; Let us bring you up to our levels first. Which i=
s an entire different furturistic world than you have knowledge of at this p=
oint&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
WE feel the key is science cannot argue with gravity drive in any way.&nbsp;=
 But your welcome to disagree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Because it is such a d=
ramatic statement You need to get into this in more detail before making dif=
fient calls. Once your more knowledgeable. then you start looking at calls.=20=
Because it is all new at this point But your welcome to disagree But The wor=
ld needs to be woken up like never before.&nbsp; With gravity drive we have=20=
far simpler usage application situations. <BR>
<BR>
Whereas application aspects with phase conversion are far more complex.&nbsp=
; Plus it requires to hooked to current.&nbsp; They said they wanted the imp=
ossinle what they call FE.&nbsp;&nbsp; Now it appears they are going to get=20=
one&nbsp;&nbsp; Once those dynamics are explained you should understand. Bet=
ter. When you are dealing with entire new situations that requires an entire=
 new realm of thinking also.&nbsp; Now if I do not make sense tell me i do n=
ot then prove it to me .&nbsp; No one is always correct in there asumptions&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
Our group is ready to move now, and we have a number of options to progress=20=
with.&nbsp; You however have something the <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">others do not.&nbsp; A product=20=
that is capable of immediate implementation.&nbsp; Secondly your broad techn=
ology range (especially the medical) is of massive interest.&nbsp; Like I sa=
id, you fit the bill perfectly for a long term partner, to us, this is just=20=
the beginning.&nbsp; We can put your technology to work, so you can always s=
ay to other potential investors "Look, they are using our technology in ----=
---deleted--- right now, producing energy and revenue, go see for yourself."=
&nbsp; I'm sure you can understand the benefit of this.&nbsp; We would b hap=
py to assist you in any way to obtain additional funding for further advance=
ment.&nbsp; The goal here is to succeed at what we do, and that means runnin=
g a tight smart business.<BR>
<BR>
Fell free to call or email me any time.&nbsp; I look forward to your respons=
e.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----deleted----<BR>
T.R.S.I. ------deleted----<BR>
Technology Research Support Initiative<BR>
-------delted-----PTY LTD</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND=
-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B=
LOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; deleted </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; deleted&nbsp=
;&nbsp; -9308-4363 (Home Number)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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> Dear Jack,       IF your on this level TOM  I'm interested  This is in your 
> face. And probably far above your league Plus they do not cop an attitude 
> like you do  And because it is in your know it all face you will probably 
> come back with snide closed  narrow minded judgmental remarks. Witch is 
> about all i have seen from you.  

    The Scientific ones 99% of the time do not understand Bus. This is how 
world level Business players play. 
> AS long as a situation functions as advertised. Is all they care about. They 
> care less how.  Smart people investigate   arrogant fools just cop an 
> attitude with the I'm a world expert attitude.  

    How dare you question me I have this degree and that degree that says I 
am one.  My response  is stick them > where the sun does not shine because I 
> have technology you cannot explain. That I know of and if you cannot those 
> degrees are worthless. Main stream science because of their combative 
> attitudes created my reaction responses. I never act I only react to an 
> action. 

   I have the advantage on them It is called knowledge. That was not learned 
by reading a book. Because that 
> is not where you find knowledge. It comes from experience. That is the only 
> way you can obtain it. Main stream science will never figure that one out.  
>  

   The only thing they understand is spouting off what someone fed them. That 
is why they cannot evolve.  
> Now The Game plan is create a major Co. Use that bases to crush main stream 
> science. Then create a new Science community that is invention based not 
> theory based. THis mail indicates I have the ability to accomplish that 
> goal.    
> 
> Thanks again for your time yesterday.  No doubt you have spent a lot of 
> time investigating the economic ramifications of this technology, and have 
> identified numerous reasons why both energy groups and government 
> institutions see this as a threat to economic stability.  In fact I do 
> believe in the recent U.S. "Home Protection Laws" just past that it 
> includes items directly related to energy and economy.  From other contacts 
> we have in the U.S. this is of grave concern for them.  I suggest you 
> investigate this further.  Such laws were strongly opposed here in 
> ----deleted---- and never made it through parliament, but that is not to 
> say the government did not try.
> 
> All the things you are talking about match our long term objectives.  
> Primarily we see these as a stepping stone process over the next decade.  
> That being the roll out of a new clean energy technology, this would then 
> facilitate the revenue for the medical and transport technology.
> 
> You could say I am a futurist.  I see where this technology could take us, 
> and am prepared to assist any in this field to get beyond our current 
> "downward spiral" consumer orientated, destuction dependant lifestyle we 
> have in the west.  Total independence and personal responsibility is the 
> key.  That means personal medical, energy and basic consumables.
>     REPLY   You can see the big picture But because of the current state of 
> the civilization and the projected 8 billion by 2020.  Witch is a 33% 
> increase that unknown factor adds a complete different set of circumstances 
> to the equation that we have to take into account.  That situation creates 
> a compounding effect far more dramatic than the doubling from 1965 to now 


   Because of current population concentration factors and land usage 
dynamics. Few can comprehend that 
> level of change. In the US we could stop burning fossil fuels by 2012 
> without any adverse economy effects. But they will tell you that is to 
> short of a period of time.  But When run the economy  numbers through a 
> super computer it  will tell you it is posible.         


> From a business perspective there are procedures to follow.  I operate as 
> the point man for this group, with a clear objective, and that is to find 
> an obtain licensing deals for existing, working alternate energy products.  
> We are extremely interested in future development.  YES.  That after all is 
> our overall objective.  To establish a business model that facilitates 
> development and growth of these new technologies.  With the deployment of 
> our first range of energy producing products we will establish a lab 
> compromised of a selected group of researchers from around the world.  This 
> group will be expanded as the projects expand.

>      REPLY  WE will also have an R&D situation of our own. full of Russians  
> Our core CO will be totally private and never be public. But the holding 
> CO's may be.Plus a School of advanced learning that no one wil be able to 
> compete with that I know of  
> The   -- Deleted---   Energy industry alone is a $64billion ($US -- deteted 
> --     Billion) Industry.  Our aim would be to capture 5% of this market 
> within the first 2 years of operation. $3.2billion.  We already have the 
> Commercial and Private customer base, billing system and infrastructure to 
> achieve this goal.  All we require is the product.
> 
> The Fibre Optic technology is of interest, and we are capable of bringing 
> this technology to a global market.  We already have a group of switching 
> products we manufacture and market directly to global communication 
> companies, this technology drasticaly reduces the costs involved in cross 
> company communications. I.e. A Call from -----deleted--- to Germany goes 
> through a number of Telco providers.  This technology selects the cheapest 
> route at the appropriate time.  However right now, this is a secondary 
> concern, and at best would be initiated as a parallel project.
>    REPLY RIGHT now it is our prime 
> I understand you have a new energy product you are working on, and that is 
> great.  From a business perspective this would not be suitable for our 
> first "model". We would need to allocate time for refinement, testing, Q&A 
> etc.  Bringing a revolutionary product from the drawing board to market is 
> at minimum a 12 month process.  If it can be done faster that is fine, but 
> it is a risk that is not necessary, therefore will not be taken as the 
> first step.

>      REPLY Because of the short period of time involved we are looking GD at 
> this point in time as being  the prime objective 

> In this case our strategy would be as follows, and you are uniquely 
> positioned to benefit from this.
> 
> 1. Validation of the phase convertor technology. Local replication an 
> dproduction of Model.1.
> 2. Implement the phase convertor technology into a local council community. 
> (I.e. an energy Feedback system utilizing existing infrastructure, to 
> supplement a communities energy usage)
> 3. Expansion of the technology for commercial use.
> 4. Expansion of the technology for private household use.*

>          Reply   That is somewhat of a premature call after only one phone 
> call.  Because you have not spoken with the Techs as of yet.  But I 
> understand why you stated it and this mail is very well done and very 
> impressive     If Phase conversion is manufactured we will conducting that 
> here to start The Tech aspects only stay will us. 


   WE want to move the new Fiber optic Manufacturing process first.  Before 
any energy technologies They are 
> like playing with a blast furnace with no clothes on. Because of the 
> dramatic change in understanding that takes time to get use to. It sounds 
> good in theory but actually causing  world wide reactions with a main 
> stream verified product on the phase conversions level is an entire 
> different story than what it sounds like. 


    Main stream can only say it functions as advertised they are clueless how 
it functions. And it has to be 
> presented as it  will help the power co. by relieving demand.  because it 
> hooks to their grid supply. You have to play it down because it hooks to 
> the grid. 


  Plus several years it had a feedback capability that had to be stopped.  
Because of the free natural added 
> power it drew from the earth it cooked power co. transformers and they got a 
> law passed in 5 days banning him from selling them. 


      Whereas gravity drive is independent from the grid all together that is 
how you totally beat them at there own > game. They cannot do anything like 
> get laws passed because it does  not involved with them in any way Think 
> about it.  Your going to have all kinds of problems when your dealing with 
> the power CO 


   You own the current after it passes through your meter but they do not 
look at it that way. They will scream 
> your stealing power from them. The scientific  community because they cannot 
> explain will scream  it creates strange effects that may be dangerous to 
> humans.  because there creditability is on the line without that they have 
> zero  The problem with phase conversion is opens up a whole can of worms.   
> GD does not because it makes an entire new statement It is not associated 
> with anything. Think about it ??/     


    Sorry about the confusion. I was not exactly aware of the Tech. aspects 
of the Fiber optic last night.  That can be presented to > fiber optic 
> manufactures through your situation. You have first shot at it. Your 
> situation can be  our first licensee and in turn license it to manufactures 
> Plus we get royalties       

> * By stage 4.  It is envisaged that the new GD (gravity drive) technology is 
> available. The GD technology would be funded additional investment and by 
> the revenue obtained from stage 2 and 3.
>         
> This method of progression facilitates a number of things.
> 1. It establishes publicly the validity of the technology.
> 2. It establishes a working relationship between the development group and 
> the production group.
> 3. It enables a more discrete, technology progression. The use of standard 
> "Approved" Generators to connect to the grid.  The method derived to turn 
> the generator is irrelevant.
> 4. It proves the capabilities of the development group, boosting confidence 
> and support, which will be vital for future development. (Once you have a 
> real world working model out in the market producing energy and a revenue 
> stream, private investors will be all over you clamoring for a piece of the 
> action.)
> 5. Regardless of your activities in the U.S. this is an independent 
> program, giving you something to fall back on should unseen forces move to 
> prevent your progress in your own region.
> 6. Minimal financial exposure to both yourself and the manufacturer. 
>    REPLY  WE CAN manufacture anything ourselfs
> In all honesty Jack, right now, what your telling me sounds too good to be 
> true.  You are the exact type of group we have been looking for, a group we 
> can see a long term future with.  We share the same vision.  We need to 
> solidify any relationship not only for our benefit but for yours also.  You 
> dont want to get tied up with a group that cannot go all the way, or who is 
> incapable of cutting through the bureaucracy and actually able to bring a 
> product to market.  On our side, we hear a lot of talk about theories and 
> potential products, but we need a development group who is capable of 
> actually producing a working piece of technology, that is verifiable, and 
> able to be replicated and implemented.  If you have a working product, 
> capable of generating excess energy from input,
> 
    REPLY   WE  all ready deal will world level players WE just sent off an E 
mail packade to a group of Billionaires today     THis is where your missing 
it     Phase conversion does not generate excess. Now the wasted aspects of 
the draw factor are all used and those currently wasted aspects become  the 
prime driver that causes the majority of work to be.conducted  And now the 
prime driver which is AMPs only preforms  a fraction of there previously work 
load.  It is just the opposite of what it  is now.   

then the commericalisation of that product is our first step.  I can tell you 
now, it will be impossible for me to convince 
> the guys funding this otherwise.
> 
  REPLY  It is not worth our time to produce at this point But we will 
discuss it   Because of the science fiction level giant step gravity drive   
WE at this point want to use  it  to prove we can produce totally world 
changing Tech. Situations. Light years beyond anything because it causes 
drastic reductions in power usage at 75% levels. Naturally that is a major 
change But our vantage point currently is far different than yours  Let us 
bring you up to our levels first. Which is an entire different furturistic 
world than you have knowledge of at this point   

WE feel the key is science cannot argue with gravity drive in any way.  But 
your welcome to disagree     Because it is such a dramatic statement You need 
to get into this in more detail before making diffient calls. Once your more 
knowledgeable. then you start looking at calls. Because it is all new at this 
point But your welcome to disagree But The world needs to be woken up like 
never before.  With gravity drive we have far simpler usage application 
situations. 

Whereas application aspects with phase conversion are far more complex.  Plus 
it requires to hooked to current.  They said they wanted the impossinle what 
they call FE.   Now it appears they are going to get one   Once those 
dynamics are explained you should understand. Better. When you are dealing 
with entire new situations that requires an entire new realm of thinking 
also.  Now if I do not make sense tell me i do not then prove it to me .  No 
one is always correct in there asumptions     

Our group is ready to move now, and we have a number of options to progress 
with.  You however have something the 
> others do not.  A product that is capable of immediate implementation.  
> Secondly your broad technology range (especially the medical) is of massive 
> interest.  Like I said, you fit the bill perfectly for a long term partner, 
> to us, this is just the beginning.  We can put your technology to work, so 
> you can always say to other potential investors "Look, they are using our 
> technology in -------deleted--- right now, producing energy and revenue, go 
> see for yourself."  I'm sure you can understand the benefit of this.  We 
> would b happy to assist you in any way to obtain additional funding for 
> further advancement.  The goal here is to succeed at what we do, and that 
> means running a tight smart business.
> 
> Fell free to call or email me any time.  I look forward to your response.
> 
> Regards
> 
>       ----deleted----
> T.R.S.I. ------deleted----
> Technology Research Support Initiative
> -------delted-----PTY LTD
    deleted 
>     deleted   -9308-4363 (Home Number)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> IF your on this level TOM&nbsp; I'm interested&nbsp; This=
 is in your face. And probably far above your league Plus they do not cop an=
 attitude like you do&nbsp; And because it is in your know it all face you w=
ill probably come back with snide closed&nbsp; narrow minded judgmental rema=
rks. Witch is about all i have seen from you.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#=
000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FA=
CE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> The Sc=
ientific ones 99% of the time do not understand Bus. This is how world level=
 Business players play. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-=
COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B>=
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>AS long as a situation functions as advertised. Is all t=
hey care about. They care less how.&nbsp; Smart people investigate&nbsp;&nbs=
p; arrogant fools just cop an attitude with the I'm a world expert attitude.=
&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>How da=
re you question me I have this degree and that degree that says I am one.&nb=
sp; My response&nbsp; is stick them <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:=20=
5px">where the sun does not shine because I have technology you cannot expla=
in. That I know of and if you cannot those degrees are worthless. Main strea=
m science because of their combative attitudes created my reaction responses=
 I never act I only react to an action. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" sty=
le=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial=
" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> I have the a=
dvantage on them It is called knowledge. That was not learned by reading a b=
ook. Because that </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>is not where you find knowledge. It comes from experienc=
e. That is the only way you can obtain it. Main stream science will never fi=
gure that one out.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACK=
GROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"=
0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>The only thi=
ng they understand is spouting off what someone fed them. That is why they c=
annot evolve.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLO=
R: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Now The Game plan is create a major Co. Use that bases t=
o crush main stream science. Then create a new Science community that is inv=
ention based not theory based. THis mail indicates I have the ability to acc=
omplish that goal.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
Thanks again for your time yesterday.&nbsp; No doubt you have spent a lot of=
 time investigating the economic ramifications of this technology, and have=20=
identified numerous reasons why both energy groups and government institutio=
ns see this as a threat to economic stability.&nbsp; In fact I do believe in=
 the recent U.S. "Home Protection Laws" just past that it includes items dir=
ectly related to energy and economy.&nbsp; From other contacts we have in th=
e U.S. this is of grave concern for them.&nbsp; I suggest you investigate th=
is further.&nbsp; Such laws were strongly opposed here in ----deleted---- an=
d never made it through parliament, but that is not to say the government di=
d not try.<BR>
<BR>
All the things you are talking about match our long term objectives.&nbsp; P=
rimarily we see these as a stepping stone process over the next decade.&nbsp=
; That being the roll out of a new clean energy technology, this would then=20=
facilitate the revenue for the medical and transport technology.<BR>
<BR>
You could say I am a futurist.&nbsp; I see where this technology could take=20=
us, and am prepared to assist any in this field to get beyond our current "d=
ownward spiral" consumer orientated, destuction dependant lifestyle we have=20=
in the west.&nbsp; Total independence and personal responsibility is the key=
&nbsp; That means personal medical, energy and basic consumables.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; You can see the big picture But beca=
use of the current state of the civilization and the projected 8 billion by=20=
2020.&nbsp; Witch is a 33% increase that unknown factor adds a complete diff=
erent set of circumstances to the equation that we have to take into account=
&nbsp; That situation creates a compounding effect far more dramatic than t=
he doubling from 1965 to now </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Because of current population concentration factors and land=
 usage dynamics. Few can comprehend that </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>level of change. In the US w=
e could stop burning fossil fuels by 2012 without any adverse economy effect=
s. But they will tell you that is to short of a period of time.&nbsp; But Wh=
en run the economy&nbsp; numbers through a super computer it&nbsp; will tell=
 you it is posible.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQ=
UOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">From a business perspective the=
re are procedures to follow.&nbsp; I operate as the point man for this group=
, with a clear objective, and that is to find an obtain licensing deals for=20=
existing, working alternate energy products.&nbsp; We are extremely interest=
ed in future development.&nbsp; YES.&nbsp; That after all is our overall obj=
ective.&nbsp; To establish a business model that facilitates development and=
 growth of these new technologies.&nbsp; With the deployment of our first ra=
nge of energy producing products we will establish a lab compromised of a se=
lected group of researchers from around the world.&nbsp; This group will be=20=
expanded as the projects expand.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REP=
LY&nbsp; WE will also have an R&amp;D situation of our own. full of Russians=
&nbsp; Our core CO will be totally private and never be public. But the hold=
ing CO's may be.Plus a School of advanced learning that no one wil be able t=
o compete with that I know of&nbsp; </B><BR>
The&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Deleted---&nbsp;&nbsp; Energy industry alone is a $64bill=
ion ($US -- deteted --&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Billion) Industry.&nbsp; Our=20=
aim would be to capture 5% of this market within the first 2 years of operat=
ion. $3.2billion.&nbsp; We already have the Commercial and Private customer=20=
base, billing system and infrastructure to achieve this goal.&nbsp; All we r=
equire is the product.<BR>
<BR>
The Fibre Optic technology is of interest, and we are capable of bringing th=
is technology to a global market.&nbsp; We already have a group of switching=
 products we manufacture and market directly to global communication compani=
es, this technology drasticaly reduces the costs involved in cross company c=
ommunications. I.e. A Call from -----deleted--- to Germany goes through a nu=
mber of Telco providers.&nbsp; This technology selects the cheapest route at=
 the appropriate time.&nbsp; However right now, this is a secondary concern,=
 and at best would be initiated as a parallel project.<BR>
&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY RIGHT now it is our prime </B><BR>
I understand you have a new energy product you are working on, and that is g=
reat.&nbsp; From a business perspective this would not be suitable for our f=
irst "model". We would need to allocate time for refinement, testing, Q&amp;=
A etc.&nbsp; Bringing a revolutionary product from the drawing board to mark=
et is at minimum a 12 month process.&nbsp; If it can be done faster that is=20=
fine, but it is a risk that is not necessary, therefore will not be taken as=
 the first step.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REP=
LY Because of the short period of time involved we are looking GD at this po=
int in time as being&nbsp; the prime objectiv</B>e </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In this case our strategy would=
 be as follows, and you are uniquely positioned to benefit from this.<BR>
<BR>
1. Validation of the phase convertor technology. Local replication an dprodu=
ction of Model.1.<BR>
2. Implement the phase convertor technology into a local council community.=20=
(I.e. an energy Feedback system utilizing existing infrastructure, to supple=
ment a communities energy usage)<BR>
3. Expansion of the technology for commercial use.<BR>
4. Expansion of the technology for private household use.*</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; That is somewhat of a premature call=20=
after only one phone call.&nbsp; Because you have not spoken with the Techs=20=
as of yet.&nbsp; But I understand why you stated it and this mail is very we=
ll done and very impressive&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If Phase conversion is m=
anufactured we will conducting that here to start The Tech aspects only stay=
 will us. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>WE want to move the new Fiber optic Manufacturing process fi=
rst.&nbsp; Before any energy technologies They are </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>like playing with a blast fu=
rnace with no clothes on. Because of the dramatic change in understanding th=
at takes time to get use to. It sounds good in theory but actually causing&n=
bsp; world wide reactions with a main stream verified product on the phase c=
onversions level is an entire different story than what it sounds like. </BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Main stream can only say it functions as advertised th=
ey are clueless how it functions. And it has to be </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>presented as it&nbsp; will h=
elp the power co. by relieving demand.&nbsp; because it hooks to their grid=20=
supply. You have to play it down because it hooks to the grid. </BLOCKQUOTE>=
<BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; <B>Plus several years it had a feedback capability that had to be sto=
pped.&nbsp; Because of the free natural added </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>power it drew from the earth=
 it cooked power co. transformers and they got a law passed in 5 days bannin=
g him from selling them. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Whereas gravity drive is independent from=20=
the grid all together that is how you totally beat them at there own <BLOCKQ=
UOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">game. They cannot do anything like get=
 laws passed because it does&nbsp; not involved with them in any way Think a=
bout it.&nbsp; Your going to have all kinds of problems when your dealing wi=
th the power CO </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</B><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>You own the current after it passes through your meter but t=
hey do not look at it that way. They will scream </B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>your stealing power from the=
m. The scientific&nbsp; community because they cannot explain will scream&nb=
sp; it creates strange effects that may be dangerous to humans.&nbsp; becaus=
e there creditability is on the line without that they have zero&nbsp; The p=
roblem with phase conversion is opens up a whole can of worms.&nbsp;&nbsp; G=
D does not because it makes an entire new statement It is not associated wit=
h anything. Think about it ??/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Sorry about the confusion. I was not exactly aware of=20=
the Tech. aspects of the Fiber optic last night.&nbsp; That can be presented=
 to <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></B>f<B>iber optic manufact=
ures through your situation. You have first shot at it. Your situation can b=
e&nbsp; our first licensee and in turn license it to manufactures Plus we ge=
t royalties&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">* By stage 4.&nbsp; It is envis=
aged that the new GD (gravity drive) technology is available. The GD technol=
ogy would be funded additional investment and by the revenue obtained from s=
tage 2 and 3.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
This method of progression facilitates a number of things.<BR>
1. It establishes publicly the validity of the technology.<BR>
2. It establishes a working relationship between the development group and t=
he production group.<BR>
3. It enables a more discrete, technology progression. The use of standard "=
Approved" Generators to connect to the grid.&nbsp; The method derived to tur=
n the generator is irrelevant.<BR>
4. It proves the capabilities of the development group, boosting confidence=20=
and support, which will be vital for future development. (Once you have a re=
al world working model out in the market producing energy and a revenue stre=
am, private investors will be all over you clamoring for a piece of the acti=
on.)<BR>
5. Regardless of your activities in the U.S. this is an independent program,=
 giving you something to fall back on should unseen forces move to prevent y=
our progress in your own region.<BR>
6. Minimal financial exposure to both yourself and the manufacturer. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; WE CAN manufacture anything ourselfs</B><BR>
In all honesty Jack, right now, what your telling me sounds too good to be t=
rue.&nbsp; You are the exact type of group we have been looking for, a group=
 we can see a long term future with.&nbsp; We share the same vision.&nbsp; W=
e need to solidify any relationship not only for our benefit but for yours a=
lso.&nbsp; You dont want to get tied up with a group that cannot go all the=20=
way, or who is incapable of cutting through the bureaucracy and actually abl=
e to bring a product to market.&nbsp; On our side, we hear a lot of talk abo=
ut theories and potential products, but we need a development group who is c=
apable of actually producing a working piece of technology, that is verifiab=
le, and able to be replicated and implemented.&nbsp; If you have a working p=
roduct, capable of generating excess energy from input,<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; WE&nbsp; all ready deal will world l=
evel players WE just sent off an E mail packade to a group of Billionaires t=
oday&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THis is where your missing it&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; Phase conversion does not generate excess. Now the wasted aspects of=20=
the draw factor are all used and those currently wasted aspects become&nbsp;=
 the prime driver that causes the majority of work to be.conducted&nbsp; And=
 now the prime driver which is AMPs only preforms&nbsp; a fraction of there=20=
previously work load.&nbsp; It is just the opposite of what it&nbsp; is now.=
&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
then the commericalisation of that product is our first step.&nbsp; I can te=
ll you now, it will be impossible for me to convince <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">the guys funding this otherwise=
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; It is not worth our time to produce at this point But=20=
we will discuss it&nbsp;&nbsp; Because of the science fiction level giant st=
ep gravity drive&nbsp;&nbsp; WE at this point want to use&nbsp; it&nbsp; to=20=
prove we can produce totally world changing Tech. Situations. Light years be=
yond anything because it causes drastic reductions in power usage at 75% lev=
els. Naturally that is a major change But our vantage point currently is far=
 different than yours&nbsp; Let us bring you up to our levels first. Which i=
s an entire different furturistic world than you have knowledge of at this p=
oint&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
WE feel the key is science cannot argue with gravity drive in any way.&nbsp;=
 But your welcome to disagree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Because it is such a d=
ramatic statement You need to get into this in more detail before making dif=
fient calls. Once your more knowledgeable. then you start looking at calls.=20=
Because it is all new at this point But your welcome to disagree But The wor=
ld needs to be woken up like never before.&nbsp; With gravity drive we have=20=
far simpler usage application situations. <BR>
<BR>
Whereas application aspects with phase conversion are far more complex.&nbsp=
; Plus it requires to hooked to current.&nbsp; They said they wanted the imp=
ossinle what they call FE.&nbsp;&nbsp; Now it appears they are going to get=20=
one&nbsp;&nbsp; Once those dynamics are explained you should understand. Bet=
ter. When you are dealing with entire new situations that requires an entire=
 new realm of thinking also.&nbsp; Now if I do not make sense tell me i do n=
ot then prove it to me .&nbsp; No one is always correct in there asumptions&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
Our group is ready to move now, and we have a number of options to progress=20=
with.&nbsp; You however have something the <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">others do not.&nbsp; A product=20=
that is capable of immediate implementation.&nbsp; Secondly your broad techn=
ology range (especially the medical) is of massive interest.&nbsp; Like I sa=
id, you fit the bill perfectly for a long term partner, to us, this is just=20=
the beginning.&nbsp; We can put your technology to work, so you can always s=
ay to other potential investors "Look, they are using our technology in ----=
---deleted--- right now, producing energy and revenue, go see for yourself."=
&nbsp; I'm sure you can understand the benefit of this.&nbsp; We would b hap=
py to assist you in any way to obtain additional funding for further advance=
ment.&nbsp; The goal here is to succeed at what we do, and that means runnin=
g a tight smart business.<BR>
<BR>
Fell free to call or email me any time.&nbsp; I look forward to your respons=
e.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----deleted----<BR>
T.R.S.I. ------deleted----<BR>
Technology Research Support Initiative<BR>
-------delted-----PTY LTD</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND=
-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B=
LOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; deleted </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; deleted&nbsp=
;&nbsp; -9308-4363 (Home Number)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1d2.3d80085.2b8f8efc_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 08:11:53 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: the nature of the longitudinal wave
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:20:36 -0500
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Hi Terry.

You write:
>If you could vary the charge on the electron, you would vary 
>the intensity of the e-field correspondingly.  This is a longitudinal or 
>scalar field wave.

This (more or less) happens every day, and the result is a concurrent
time varying H field and resulting TEM wave. What is
preventing the formation of that H field in your example?

>>  It's time to puthoff or shutoff. 
>I just hope Dr. Hal isn't annoyed.

Why should he possibly be bothered, Terry? 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 08:12:31 2003
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From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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thomas malloy wrote:

> What can you tell us about how to generate these waves? 


Imagine space with no matter.  Suddenly an electron appears, POP! 
 Extending outward from the electron is an electric field filling the 
universe.  If you could vary the charge on the electron, you would vary 
the intensity of the e-field correspondingly.  This is a longitudinal or 
scalar field wave.

>>  It's time to puthoff or shutoff. 
>

I just hope Dr. Hal isn't annoyed.

Terry


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Non-trees 'better than originals'
February 25, 2003

SCIENTISTS are developing an artificial tree which can perform the
function of living trees better than the real thing - and
potentially reduce greenhouse gasses by millions of tonnes a year.

Synthetic models which could sit in an office or trees the size of
houses are being planned. One tree it is estimated, could remove
90,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year - equal to 15,000 cars'
emissions. 

The drawback is the non-tree may not provide the same aesthetic
qualities. 

"It looks more like a goal post with Venetian blinds," said
Columbia University physicist, Dr Klaus Lackner, who unveiled it
at a scientific conference. 

The synthetic version would draw carbon dioxide out of the air, as
plants do during photosynthesis, but retain the carbon and not
release oxygen. 

On a large scale the trees could easily reduce carbon dioxide
levels in the atmosphere - responsible for global warming. 

No working model has yet been developed but it has been designed
on paper and is ready to go. 

The tree would capture carbon dioxide then store it in removable
filters. 

Dr Lackner estimated that about 250,000 synthetic trees worldwide
would be needed to soak up the 22 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide
produced annually. 

The Daily Telegraph

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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 08:44:29 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>

> Hi Terry. You write:
> >If you could vary the charge on the electron, you would vary=20
> >the intensity of the e-field correspondingly.  This is a longitudinal =
or=20
> >scalar field wave.
=20
> This (more or less) happens every day, and the result is a concurrent
> time varying H field and resulting TEM wave. What is
> preventing the formation of that H field in your example?


Fractional charge is an interesting and controversial subject, going =
back to Millikan's famous (alleged fraudulent) experiment and before, =
and I wish there was more definitive information out there. A fellow =
named Maris, from Brown, is a big proponent of fractional charge.
http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2000/physnews.501.htm

Other examples, researchers found that when the polymer polyacetylene =
acquires an extra electron, the particle seems to split into two =
quasi-particles, or excitations of the molecule as a whole. One carries =
spin and the other charge.
=20
There's also the fractional quantum Hall effect, related to what you =
mentioned above: electrons trapped between two semiconductor surfaces =
can appear as quasi-particles with charges less than those of single =
electrons. Both examples depend on collective behaviors emerging from =
the whole system, and the atomic version is no different in this =
respect.
=20
Electrons in helium behave in a puzzling way, for which there is not, as =
yet, a fully satisfactory explanation. This is Maris' experiment. They =
create tiny bubbles, roughly 400 atom widths in diameter, that no helium =
can enter. When light is shone on these bubbles, new negatively charged =
particles seem to appear. Low-temperature physics is full of such =
oddities. The puzzle was that the light did not simply kick the =
electrons back out of the helium. In fact, it was not clear what had =
happened to them. Maris suggests that the electrons had split apart.
=20
He proposes that light causes the bubbles to oscillate, until they break =
up like shaken raindrops. Within the initial bubble, he says, the =
electron behaves as a kind of wave. When the bubble splits, each =
fragment takes a part of the electron wave with them -- an 'electrino'.

You can get pretty far out there into fringe science with a Google =
search for "electrino," especially if you speak Russian...
=20
> >>  It's time to puthoff or shutoff [on ZPE].=20
> >I just hope Dr. Hal isn't annoyed.

I take it that you guys feel that sonofusion, for one, is adequately =
explained without recourse to ZPE? Anyone care to take a flyer on how or =
why the Casimir force is not related to ZPE (other than by the skeptic's =
constrictive definition of one or the other)?

Jones
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
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Shared\Stationery\">
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<DIV>From: "Keith Nagel" &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:knagel gis.net">knagel@gis.net</A>&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Hi =
Terry. You=20
write:<BR>&gt; &gt;If you could vary the charge on the electron, you =
would vary=20
<BR>&gt; &gt;the intensity of the e-field correspondingly.&nbsp; This is =
a=20
longitudinal or <BR>&gt; &gt;scalar field wave.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&gt; This =
(more or=20
less) happens every day, and the result is a concurrent<BR>&gt; time =
varying H=20
field and resulting TEM wave. What is<BR>&gt; preventing the formation =
of that H=20
field in your example?<BR><BR><BR>Fractional charge is an interesting =
and=20
controversial subject, going back to Millikan's famous (alleged =
fraudulent)=20
experiment and before, and I wish there was more definitive information =
out=20
there. A fellow named Maris, from Brown, is a big proponent of =
fractional=20
charge.<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2000/physnews.501.htm">http://w=
ww.aip.org/enews/physnews/2000/physnews.501.htm</A><BR><BR>Other=20
examples, researchers found that when the polymer polyacetylene acquires =
an=20
extra electron, the particle seems to split into two quasi-particles, or =

excitations of the molecule as a whole. One carries spin and the other=20
charge.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>There's also the fractional quantum Hall effect, =
related to=20
what you mentioned above: electrons trapped between two semiconductor =
surfaces=20
can appear as quasi-particles with charges less than those of single =
electrons.=20
Both examples depend on collective behaviors emerging from the whole =
system, and=20
the atomic version is no different in this =
respect.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Electrons in=20
helium behave in a puzzling way, for which there is not, as yet, a fully =

satisfactory explanation. This is Maris' experiment. They create tiny =
bubbles,=20
roughly 400 atom widths in diameter, that no helium can enter. When =
light is=20
shone on these bubbles, new negatively charged particles seem to appear. =

Low-temperature physics is full of such oddities. The puzzle was that =
the light=20
did not simply kick the electrons back out of the helium. In fact, it =
was not=20
clear what had happened to them. Maris suggests that the electrons had =
split=20
apart.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>He proposes that light causes the bubbles to =
oscillate,=20
until they break up like shaken raindrops. Within the initial bubble, he =
says,=20
the electron behaves as a kind of wave. When the bubble splits, each =
fragment=20
takes a part of the electron wave with them -- an =
'electrino'.<BR><BR>You can=20
get pretty far out there into fringe science with a Google search for=20
"electrino," especially if you speak Russian...<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
It's time to puthoff or shutoff [on ZPE]. <BR>&gt; &gt;I just hope Dr. =
Hal isn't=20
annoyed.<BR><BR>I take it that you guys feel that sonofusion, for one, =
is=20
adequately explained without recourse to ZPE? Anyone care to take a =
flyer on how=20
or why the Casimir force is not related to ZPE (other than by the =
skeptic's=20
constrictive definition of one or the =
other)?<BR><BR>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 09:11:15 2003
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From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Hi Terry.
>
>You write:
>  
>
>>If you could vary the charge on the electron, you would vary 
>>the intensity of the e-field correspondingly.  This is a longitudinal or 
>>scalar field wave.
>>    
>>
>
>This (more or less) happens every day, and the result is a concurrent
>time varying H field and resulting TEM wave. What is
>preventing the formation of that H field in your example?
>  
>

Ah, this becomes the issue!  Tell me, when the electron POPs into 
existence, do you believe the e-field propagates?  Or does it appear 
instantaneously everywhere?

>>> It's time to puthoff or shutoff. 
>>>      
>>>
>>I just hope Dr. Hal isn't annoyed.
>>    
>>
>
>Why should he possibly be bothered, Terry? 
>

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Why should he be annoyed or 
why should we direct JC to him?

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 09:43:15 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:04:14 -0600
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Terry wrote:
>
> If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single phase
> into a phase converter with a 3 phase delta output.

Interesting. One could conjure up a Static Converter heavy on capacitors such that
there would be a huge initial spike on the single phase, then spikes too fast for the
ammeter to see, but average out to 9 amps.

The power companies would love that.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick
>
> Terry
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 10:46:53 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Harold he says i should see you THe end of a age and The beginning	 of a new
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At 9:25 PM 2/26/3, Terry Blanton wrote:
[snip]
>My point to you is that your are wasting your time.  You are also
>wasting the time of this list.  I am serious about Dr. Puthoff.  You
>demonstrate your device to him and he has a resource which can bring
>billions of real dollars to bear on the invention.  No shit!  But right
>now you are annoying a lot of people.  You will get nowhere pursuing
>your present course.  It's time to puthoff or shutoff.
>
>Regards,
>
>Terry


Well, Terry, looks like "you made of fool of your self!"  8^)


Puthoff is already on Carey's spam (harassment?) list.


>From a Cary post:

Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:37:15 -0800
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:36:18 EST
Subject: Somebody 10,000 Mi Away in Hong Kong  that can see past their nose
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: e.kramer earthlink.net, ted.loder@unh.edu, carlto.speck@delphiauto.com,
   ddoherty kettering.edu, john.boerger@cbcf-net.com, premierww@qwest.net,
   sterlingda greterthings.com, thoren70@hotmail.com, mike@ucsofa.com,
   jhart aapspower.com, etimes@teleport.com, director@faraday.ru,
   patrickcadore sterlingpublications.com, richard.brekus@bmwna.com,
   fuchs ttc-usa.com, aleshan@for.com, marcraig@mindspring.com,
   n3716 hotmail.com, tcrampto@mcc.edu, droach@mcc.edu,
   editor infinite-energy.com, adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch,
   albert.widenmann mchm.siemens.de, iri@erols.com, vman@skylink.net,
   Puthoff aol.com, halfox@qwest.net, bsh@timelessvoyager.com,
   gtassist sciam.com

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
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    You figured it out  go for you   that is the new equation"" ELECTRON FLOW 
WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF""   dOES THE DESCRIPTION   match yours ?   If not 
your totally screwed  and will have to throw your books away. My suggestion 
is Start with the phase angle book  All that money and time you spent to get 
that EE degree  To see it just go up in Smoke  That is grounds to get drunk 
and have a good cry.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 11:12:39 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: the nature of the longitudinal wave
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:25:13 -0500
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Hi Terry.

>Ah, this becomes the issue!  Tell me, when the electron POPs into 
>existence, do you believe the e-field propagates?  Or does it appear 
>instantaneously everywhere?

What I know from my experimental work, is that in longitudinal
field generators, a TEM wave precedes the LE or LM "wave" establishing
it, and travels at speed C. It is easy to generate LE or LM
type waves with any relation of wavelength to frequency you wish,
but the wave is "synthetic" in the sense that it is composed
of interfering TEM waves.

Regarding your example, I can't say. Electrons don't materialize
from nothing and stick around very long (grin). If you can come
up with a practical implementation,  I can probably provide a
better analysis. In my case, I generated LM and LE type waves
using transmission lines.

I'm not opposed to the notion of instantaneous action at a
distance, far from it in fact. It's just that in my experimental
experience all longitudinal waves I have measured fit into
the above model. 

K.

>I'm not sure I understand your question.  Why should he be annoyed or 
>why should we direct JC to him?
>Terry

Both. Don't be so concrete (grin).



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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Solar power
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:18:00 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

The difference in intensity between solar radiation outside the atmosphere
and on the surface is about 300 W/m^2. Any suggestions as to where this power
is absorbed?


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 12:37:04 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:23:20 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: LENR-CANR downloads exceed 36,000
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Total downloads since Oct. 7, 2002 are now 36,385.

I am working on a paper by Huggins, and material about K. Wolf (Texas A&M) 
by Passell and Mallove. I should have it uploaded today. Several of the 
graphs were in very poor condition, so I spent a few days repairing them. I 
replaced many of the titles, labels, table borders and so on. I hesitate to 
do this, because it is not good academic form. Some people might consider 
it changing or modifying data. On the other hand, there is no point in 
publishing graphs that people cannot read. In the old days people sometimes 
manually inked in new lines or wrote numbers by hand to replace faded or 
missing information on graphs. I do the same thing electronically, which 
makes it easy to distinguish the parts that I added. I deliberately select 
fonts and line sizes different from the original.

I figure what I am doing is preserving data, akin to what a curator does in 
a museum. Nearly all of the paintings, sculptures, ancient vases and so on 
that you see in a museum have been extensively repaired and repainted. If a 
museum were to show artworks in their untouched or "as received" condition, 
it would be looking at pictures left hanging on the walls of houses 
destroyed by war or a tornado. There would be gashes and missing sections, 
sections painted over by inept people centuries after the original artist, 
fig leaves painted over genitalia during Victorian times, and so on. Modern 
curators use paint that can be removed in the distant future, and they keep 
careful records of the changes. In Japan, people repairing ancient wood 
buildings use planks and beams with the present date ("2003 REPAIR") 
branded (burned) into the wood in inconspicuous places, so that future 
curators will know what was original and what was added. Sometimes curators 
will take the only remaining fragment of a work and place it on top of a 
rough sketch of what they think the original article looked like. Anyway, I 
figure if they can take such liberties, so can I. This is a serious issue 
though. Cold fusion data is probably about as important to humanity as a 
first edition copy of "Hamlet" or "Principia" but practically no one is 
trying to preserve it.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 12:44:26 2003
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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All goes back to what I have told people over and over and over and over
and over and over.

Power can be tricky to measure. Get someone who is experianced in
measureing power in strange formats before you start shooting off your
mouth.   

Most >-Woodbee-< breakthrough free energyy "I am right and the rest of
the world is wrong" KoOks make the same set of mistakes.

They get a "digital" instrument that compensates noise up to a couple
hundred KHz and maybe 120% of full scale reading,  They trust the meter
implicitly.  Then they measure input power to something like a poorly
tuned brush comutated motor that has spectrial content from neer DC to
neer light. and spikes of current that are 20 or 30 times what the meter
can measure and like magic they get these real low input current or power
measurements and the "Device" is doing "way more work" then that.

Or

Place a current probe right next to an output transformer and read the
close field flux of the transformer rather then the actual output current
showing very high output current.   

or

fail to understand the relationship between power and energy...

or... or... or...




 

 
--- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> Terry wrote:
> >
> > If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single
> phase
> > into a phase converter with a 3 phase delta output.
> 
> Interesting. One could conjure up a Static Converter heavy on
> capacitors such that
> there would be a huge initial spike on the single phase, then spikes
> too fast for the
> ammeter to see, but average out to 9 amps.
> 
> The power companies would love that.  :-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Frederick
> >
> > Terry
> >
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 12:49:13 2003
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Solar power
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Um...  The air...

That is to say that 300W is gradually heating a collum of air that is a
square meter crosssection and 80000 meters tall.  

(it will take a few moments)

The remaining 1000W/m^2 reaches the ground and is present and usable.
(sort of)
 

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The difference in intensity between solar radiation outside the
> atmosphere
> and on the surface is about 300 W/m^2. Any suggestions as to where this
> power
> is absorbed?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> R. van Spaandonk
> 
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:04:02 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:57:53 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Solar power
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" 

> The difference in intensity between solar radiation outside the atmosphere
> and on the surface is about 300 W/m^2. Any suggestions as to where this power
> is absorbed?

I guess this is a trick question, but I'll bite anyway...

About 600 watts per square meter makes it to earth in the USA, is not uniformly absorbed causing heat differentials and wind, which BTW is roughly equivalent to a constant 20 mph wind =10 m/s  .0006 * 103 = .0006 * 1000 = .6 KILO watts per square meter, where power per sq. meter = .0006 V^3;  if 300  W/m^2 is reflected/scattered, and some fraction is absorbed by the atmosphere, what is the problem ?

Jones 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:24:19 2003
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From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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References: <014601c2de63$2ab308a0$a811b83f computer> <3E5E234E.4020109@rtpatlanta.com> <019801c2de7a$4eb29ce0$a811b83f@computer>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Terry wrote:
>  
>
>>If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single phase
>>into a phase converter with a 3 phase delta output.
>>    
>>
>
>Interesting. One could conjure up a Static Converter heavy on capacitors such that
>there would be a huge initial spike on the single phase, then spikes too fast for the
>ammeter to see, but average out to 9 amps.
>
>The power companies would love that.  :-)
>

Not to mention your AM radio!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:24:35 2003
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:31:16 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: knagel gis.net
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMGEPJDHAA.knagel gis.net>



Keith Nagel wrote:

>Regarding your example, I can't say. Electrons don't materialize
>from nothing and stick around very long (grin). If you can come
>up with a practical implementation,  I can probably provide a
>better analysis. In my case, I generated LM and LE type waves
>using transmission lines.
>

Yeah, I understand how L-Waves can be constructed within a waveguide.  I 
don't know how they can allegedly be created in free space with enough 
energy to down an aircraft.  And reading Bearden always gives me a headache.

>Both. Don't be so concrete (grin).
>

Well, I honestly wasn't dumping on  Hal.  I'm sure he has delt with the 
passionate non-tech many times.  In his response to me, he said that 
they would be happy to test it and if it works, manufacture and 
globalize it.  What more could one ask?

Terry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:24:41 2003
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  of a new
References: <v01530500ba8408c586df [12.21.208.71]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Well, Terry, looks like "you made of fool of your self!"  8^)
>

It's merely a renewal of status.

>Puthoff is already on Carey's spam (harassment?) list.
>

Well, I heard from him and he is not upset . . . yet.  He probably has a 
diverse filter list considering the things he has researched in the past.

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:24:47 2003
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Jones Beene wrote:

> You can get pretty far out there into fringe science with a Google 
> search for "electrino," especially if you speak Russian...


Yep, reminds me of the advice given Horatio.  

It is interesting that  the Russians have the most info on the 
electrino.  I wonder how they are detected since they apparently can not 
emit a photonm, or can they?  The interesting part is that this 
corresponds with Bearden's claim that the Russians have perfected the 
scalar weapon, Tesla's "death ray".  Since we are speculating way beyond 
the edge here, could a scalar weapon on a ship take down a space craft? 
 And what would the "hit" look like if you happened to be photographing 
the vehicle at the time upon reentry?

> I take it that you guys feel that sonofusion, for one, is adequately 
> explained without recourse to ZPE? Anyone care to take a flyer on how 
> or why the Casimir force is not related to ZPE (other than by the 
> skeptic's constrictive definition of one or the other)?


No and no.  ;-)

Terry

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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>    You figured it out  go for you   that is the new equation"" ELECTRON FLOW 
>WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF""   dOES THE DESCRIPTION   match yours ?   If not 
>your totally screwed  and will have to throw your books away. My suggestion 
>is Start with the phase angle book  All that money and time you spent to get 
>that EE degree  To see it just go up in Smoke  That is grounds to get drunk 
>and have a good cry. 
>

Oh, I've never needed an excuse for having a drink.  Have you heard 
about the new liquid Viagra . . . you can really pour yourself a stiff one.

You know, the power company has been selling us the same AMPS for years, 
they just keeping pushing them back and forth, back and forth, . . .

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:29:40 2003
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Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
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In a message dated 2/27/03 3:44:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cjford1 yahoo.com writes:


> All goes back to what I have told people over and over and over and over
> and over and over.
> REPLY HELLO  if you have a 110 feed and that feed is conducting all that 
> work it is not rocket science to see that there may be something going on   
> HELLO  World class physicists have not had a clue HELLO  an international 
> Mag with a 1500 dollar test meret did not have clue on  Why don''t 
> investigate before you run your mouth   
> Power can be tricky to measure. Get someone who is experianced in
> measureing power in strange formats before you start shooting off your
> mouth.   
> 
> Most >-Woodbee-< breakthrough free energyy "I am right and the rest of
> the world is wrong" KoOks make the same set of mistakes.
> 
> They get a "digital" instrument that compensates noise up to a couple
> hundred KHz and maybe 120% of full scale reading,  They trust the meter
> implicitly.  Then they measure input power to something like a poorly
> tuned brush comutated motor that has spectrial content from neer DC to
> neer light. and spikes of current that are 20 or 30 times what the meter
> can measure and like magic they get these real low input current or power
> measurements and the "Device" is doing "way more work" then that.
> 
> Or
> 
> Place a current probe right next to an output transformer and read the
> close field flux of the transformer rather then the actual output current
> showing very high output current.   
> 
> or
> 
> fail to understand the relationship between power and energy...
> 
> or... or... or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Terry wrote:
> > >
> > > If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single
> > phase
> > > into a phase converter with a 3 phase delta output.
> > 
> > Interesting. One could conjure up a Static Converter heavy on
> > capacitors such that
> > there would be a huge initial spike on the single phase, then spikes
> > too fast for the
> > ammeter to see, but average out to 9 amps.
> > 
> > The power companies would love that.  :-)
> > 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 3:44:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, cjford1 yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">All goes back to what I have to=
ld people over and over and over and over<BR>
and over and over.<BR>
<B>REPLY HELLO&nbsp; if you have a 110 feed and that feed is conducting all=20=
that work it is not rocket science to see that there may be something going=20=
on&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO&nbsp; World class physicists have not had a clue HELLO&=
nbsp; an international Mag with a 1500 dollar test meret did not have clue o=
n&nbsp; Why don''t investigate before you run your mouth&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR=
>
Power can be tricky to measure. Get someone who is experianced in<BR>
measureing power in strange formats before you start shooting off your<BR>
mouth.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Most &gt;-Woodbee-&lt; breakthrough free energyy "I am right and the rest of=
<BR>
the world is wrong" KoOks make the same set of mistakes.<BR>
<BR>
They get a "digital" instrument that compensates noise up to a couple<BR>
hundred KHz and maybe 120% of full scale reading,&nbsp; They trust the meter=
<BR>
implicitly.&nbsp; Then they measure input power to something like a poorly<B=
R>
tuned brush comutated motor that has spectrial content from neer DC to<BR>
neer light. and spikes of current that are 20 or 30 times what the meter<BR>
can measure and like magic they get these real low input current or power<BR=
>
measurements and the "Device" is doing "way more work" then that.<BR>
<BR>
Or<BR>
<BR>
Place a current probe right next to an output transformer and read the<BR>
close field flux of the transformer rather then the actual output current<BR=
>
showing very high output current.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
or<BR>
<BR>
fail to understand the relationship between power and energy...<BR>
<BR>
or... or... or...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- Frederick Sparber &lt;fjsparber earthlink.net&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt; Terry wrote:<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single<B=
R>
&gt; phase<BR>
&gt; &gt; into a phase converter with a 3 phase delta output.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Interesting. One could conjure up a Static Converter heavy on<BR>
&gt; capacitors such that<BR>
&gt; there would be a huge initial spike on the single phase, then spikes<BR=
>
&gt; too fast for the<BR>
&gt; ammeter to see, but average out to 9 amps.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; The power companies would love that.&nbsp; :-)<BR>
&gt; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:39:01 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Solar power
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:35:25 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:46:21 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Um...  The air...
>
>That is to say that 300W is gradually heating a collum of air that is a
>square meter crosssection and 80000 meters tall.  
>
>(it will take a few moments)
>
>The remaining 1000W/m^2 reaches the ground and is present and usable.
>(sort of)

I suspect that the heating is not uniform, and was hoping for a more precise answer about distribution. Specifically, what % is absorbed by the ionosphere?

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:39:29 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: LENR-CANR downloads exceed 36,000
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:48:14 -0500
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Hey Jed.

Is it the case that

///////////////////////
McKubre, M.C.H., et al.,
Development of Advanced Concepts for Nuclear
Processes in Deuterated Metals
 Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), 1994.
///////////////////////

is your most popular document?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:23 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: LENR-CANR downloads exceed 36,000


Total downloads since Oct. 7, 2002 are now 36,385.

I am working on a paper by Huggins, and material about K. Wolf (Texas A&M)
by Passell and Mallove. I should have it uploaded today. Several of the
graphs were in very poor condition, so I spent a few days repairing them. I
replaced many of the titles, labels, table borders and so on. I hesitate to
do this, because it is not good academic form. Some people might consider
it changing or modifying data. On the other hand, there is no point in
publishing graphs that people cannot read. In the old days people sometimes
manually inked in new lines or wrote numbers by hand to replace faded or
missing information on graphs. I do the same thing electronically, which
makes it easy to distinguish the parts that I added. I deliberately select
fonts and line sizes different from the original.

I figure what I am doing is preserving data, akin to what a curator does in
a museum. Nearly all of the paintings, sculptures, ancient vases and so on
that you see in a museum have been extensively repaired and repainted. If a
museum were to show artworks in their untouched or "as received" condition,
it would be looking at pictures left hanging on the walls of houses
destroyed by war or a tornado. There would be gashes and missing sections,
sections painted over by inept people centuries after the original artist,
fig leaves painted over genitalia during Victorian times, and so on. Modern
curators use paint that can be removed in the distant future, and they keep
careful records of the changes. In Japan, people repairing ancient wood
buildings use planks and beams with the present date ("2003 REPAIR")
branded (burned) into the wood in inconspicuous places, so that future
curators will know what was original and what was added. Sometimes curators
will take the only remaining fragment of a work and place it on top of a
rough sketch of what they think the original article looked like. Anyway, I
figure if they can take such liberties, so can I. This is a serious issue
though. Cold fusion data is probably about as important to humanity as a
first edition copy of "Hamlet" or "Principia" but practically no one is
trying to preserve it.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 13:42:33 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave]
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:58:30 -0500
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Hi.

Terry writes:
>Yeah, I understand how L-Waves can be constructed within a waveguide.  I
>don't know how they can allegedly be created in free space with enough
>energy to down an aircraft.  And reading Bearden always gives me a
headache.

What's Bearden have to do with it???

Longitudinal modes can be excited in free space, easily.
It's what your radio engineer types likes to call, "near field",
and your quant-hum fiziciks types like to call, "storage field".

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 14:29:42 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Clockwork Orange?
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:55:18 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:20:34 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>Dr Lackner estimated that about 250,000 synthetic trees worldwide
>would be needed to soak up the 22 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide
>produced annually. 
[snip]
If synthetic trees can soak up diffuse CO2 from the atmosphere, then scrubbers attached to the source at power stations can do it much cheaper.

Nevertheless I'm curious how he intends to bind the CO2.

Re. "esthetic quality" - you thought wind farms were bad?

Cheaper not to chop down the real thing, and aesthetically much more pleasing.
(Lower maintenance too).

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 14:33:22 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:24:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Solar power
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Well...  It's not uniform.

As you move away form the ecliptic the access angle changes causing Sol
to have to cut through even more air to get to the surface making for
cooler and warmer climates. as we all cool at the same rate depending on
cloud cover and humidity.  

Also you might look at weather baloon soundings for distrubution per
altituded.  Where the air ts thiner less radiation is absorbed. I think
you will find enough hard data there. Most likely the grater majority is
adsorbed by the last 4Km where the CO2 levels are higher.  This "CO2
line" is a weathermaker offering the growing moist thermal a stark change
in relitave dencity and temperature.   

The difference between ecliptic (tropical) heating and sub-tropical
heating also brings the trade winds. (global scale paterns)   

I can't tell you what the temperatures and presures are at each layer of
the atmosphere.  We spoters only look for things like lapse rates,
Temperature change per alittude.  and CAPE (Convectave Atmosphereic
Potential Energy) wich tells us just how bad storms will tend to become.
e.g.  500 j/Kg maybe it will rain, 1000j/Kg maybe thunder storm, 3000j/Kg
maybe damaging winds and large hail...  6000j/Kg hide underground,
8000j/KG  (armigedon)   :-)



--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2003 12:46:21 -0800:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> 
> >Um...  The air...
> >
> >That is to say that 300W is gradually heating a collum of air that is
> a
> >square meter crosssection and 80000 meters tall.  
> >
> >(it will take a few moments)
> >
> >The remaining 1000W/m^2 reaches the ground and is present and usable.
> >(sort of)
> 
> I suspect that the heating is not uniform, and was hoping for a more
> precise answer about distribution. Specifically, what % is absorbed by
> the ionosphere?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> R. van Spaandonk
> 
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 14:41:10 2003
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In a message dated 2/27/03 9:42:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:


> If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single phase 
> into a phase convertor with a 3 phase delta output. --------It goes to a 30 
> Amp Breaker first then the coverter
> 
>      Correct the PC is a 3 Hp  THat in turn operates a 5 Hp 3 P air Com. 
But the 5 has been  Replaced with a 3  and a 6 Ft Ind Drill press and the 
2/12 has been replaced one Hp plus a 250 Apm arch welder  operational at 100 
AMP

         YOU HAVE MATH for that lets see it??????/I do  IF YOU IF DO NOT It 
is ''ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF"" 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 9:42:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If I understand JC correctly, h=
e is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single phase <BR>
into a phase convertor with a 3 phase delta output. --------It goes to a 30=20=
Amp Breaker first then the coverter<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Correct the PC is a 3 Hp&nbsp; THat in=
 turn operates a 5 Hp 3 P air Com. But the 5 has been&nbsp; Replaced with a=20=
3&nbsp; and a 6 Ft Ind Drill press and the 2/12 has been replaced one Hp plu=
s a 250 Apm arch welder&nbsp; operational at 100 AMP<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU HAVE MATH for that lets=
 see it??????/I do&nbsp; IF YOU IF DO NOT It is ''ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREA=
TING AN EMF"" </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 14:43:25 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:39:06 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: LENR-CANR downloads exceed 36,000
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEEPLDHAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Is it the case that
>
>///////////////////////
>McKubre, M.C.H., et al.,
>Development of Advanced Concepts for Nuclear
>Processes in Deuterated Metals
>  Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), 1994.
>///////////////////////
>
>is your most popular document?

That is one of the top 10. It includes only a few sample pages from the 
book, which is a shame. I suppose it would be more popular if EPRI would 
let us publish more of it.

Popular authors include Beaudette, Bockris, Chubb, Cravens, Fleischmann, 
Lonchampt, McKubre, Miles, Oriani, Schwinger, Storms, Szpak and others. I 
wish people would read more by Will, Iwamura, Claytor and Melich.

- Jed


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:44:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Clockwork Orange?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Naww if yall starts hackin down allathe trees what rwe gonna put in the
cookstove  ??

Oh I love this one

Ever heard "If it ain't broke don't fix it" ?


--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:20:34 -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> 
> >Dr Lackner estimated that about 250,000 synthetic trees worldwide
> >would be needed to soak up the 22 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide
> >produced annually. 
> [snip]
> If synthetic trees can soak up diffuse CO2 from the atmosphere, then
> scrubbers attached to the source at power stations can do it much
> cheaper.
> 
> Nevertheless I'm curious how he intends to bind the CO2.
> 
> Re. "esthetic quality" - you thought wind farms were bad?
> 
> Cheaper not to chop down the real thing, and aesthetically much more
> pleasing.
> (Lower maintenance too).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> R. van Spaandonk
> 
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 14:56:34 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:50:10 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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> Yep, reminds me of the advice given Horatio.  

Are you talking Hamlet or Hornblower?

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Jones Beene wrote:

>>Yep, reminds me of the advice given Horatio.  
>>    
>>
>
>Are you talking Hamlet or Hornblower?
>
>
>  
>
<g>  Act I Scene 5


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 15:28:52 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 18:25:54 EST
Subject: : Harold  contacted me 18 months ago 
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           From One of my mails and said something about over unity testing   
 which is  a Misnomer    Science just does not grasp it  POWER HAS TO COME 
FROM SOMEWHERE    If it is thin air  then it would have to be neutrinos, 
tacyons, or the charged aspects of the atmosphere  The earth produces power 
it is the biggest battery there is   Radio stations TV stations  micro wave 
towers HAARP  are man made 

   Your either using as it is   or converting  I use the simple terms but 
science wants to vacuum flux, EM WAVES scalar waves     KEEP it simple   But 
then anyone could talk about it instead of just them  WE cannot have that 
happing then would they would have to speak to ones they feel are lessor than 
them.  WHO wants to speak to then anyway.     You cannot learn anything from 
them.  that i can see 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From One of my mails and said something=20=
about over unity testing&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; which is&nbsp; a Misnomer&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Science just does not grasp it&nbsp;<B> POWER HAS TO COME FROM SO=
MEWHERE&nbsp;&nbsp;</B>&nbsp; If it is thin air&nbsp; then it would have to=20=
be neutrinos, tacyons, or the charged aspects of the atmosphere&nbsp; The ea=
rth produces power it is the biggest battery there is&nbsp;&nbsp; Radio stat=
ions TV stations&nbsp; micro wave towers HAARP&nbsp; are man made <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Your either using as it is&nbsp;&nbsp; or converting&nbsp; I us=
e the simple terms but science wants to vacuum flux, EM WAVES scalar waves&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; KEEP it simple&nbsp;&nbsp; But then anyone could talk=
 about it instead of just them&nbsp; WE cannot have that happing then would=20=
they would have to speak to ones they feel are lessor than them.&nbsp; WHO w=
ants to speak to then anyway.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You cannot learn anyth=
ing from them.&nbsp; that i can see </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 15:41:43 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <46.35fa71b6.2b8fe5d1 aol.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!  
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:34:51 -0600
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JCarey9622 aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 4:06 PM
  Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!

  > Correct the PC is a 3 Hp  THat in turn operates a 5 Hp 3 P air Com.=20
  >But the 5 has been  Replaced with a 3  and a 6 Ft Ind Drill=20
  > press and the 2/12 has been replaced one Hp plus a 250 Apm arch =
welder  operational at 100 AMP

     Good! Then why not feed 9 amps worth of 120 single phase back to =
the PC, leaving you about
  10 Hp worth of  Free Energy, and get off the Grid?

  If you can do that, I'll take two of them, UPS Overnight.  :-)

  Regards,

  Frederick   =20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com"=20
  title=3DJCarey9622 aol.com>JCarey9622@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 27, =
2003 4:06=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: 3 Phase =
Miracle!<FONT=20
  face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;Correct the PC is a 3 Hp&nbsp; THat in turn =
operates a 5 Hp 3=20
  P air Com. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;But=20
  the 5 has been&nbsp; Replaced with a 3&nbsp; and a 6 Ft Ind Drill=20
  </FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  press and the 2/12 has been replaced one Hp plus a 250 Apm arch =
welder&nbsp;=20
  operational at 100 AMP<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Good! Then why not =
feed 9 amps=20
  worth of 120 single phase back to the PC, leaving you=20
about</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>10 Hp=20
  worth of&nbsp; Free Energy, and get off the Grid?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">If you can do that, I'll take two of =
them, UPS=20
  Overnight.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  =
size=3D2>Frederick&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOT=
E></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 17:07:10 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <78.39618d43.2b900f7c aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:03:56 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!     HELLO 
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In a message dated 2/27/03 6:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:


> Good! Then why not feed 9 amps worth of 120 single phase back to the PC, 
> leaving you about
> 10 Hp worth of  Free Energy, and get off the Grid?
>  
> If you can do that, I'll take two of them, UPS Overnight
> 
      Call 810 618 9234    for ordering instructions       Oh that 9 amps has 
all ready been converted once and  all the aspects were used. Instead of the 
majority being wasted as they are now. and there is nothing left over. So you 
always need  new fresh ones is why that is not possible.   

Who in the hell taught you that totally backward thinking?   HERE IS the 
concept  It  IS real simple  but probably to simple for you to grasp   You go 
to Lowes you buy a 99% EFF>  fire place   NOW is there any left over once it 
is burned NO  So you always need a fresh supply of gas  CORRECT.  Well, 
electricity is no different you use it CORRECT.    

WE are squeezing it per se and deriving more juice out of it. And persuaded 
that juice to do the majority of work.  And let all the boys that were 
conducting the vast majority of the work take a rest. WE told them we conned 
the lazy ones into going to work. and had the enforcers we call up from the 
earth to keep kicking them in the ass so they work keep working.         

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 6:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Good! Then why not feed 9 amps=20=
worth of 120 single phase back to the PC, leaving you about</FONT><FONT  COL=
OR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" FACE=3D"arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"arial" LANG=3D"0">10 Hp worth of&nbsp; Free En=
ergy, and get off the Grid?</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
BR>
 <BR>
If you can do that, I'll take two of them, UPS Overnight<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Call 810 618 9234&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for ordering instructions&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh that 9 amps has all ready been converted once an=
d&nbsp; all the aspects were used. Instead of the majority being wasted as t=
hey are now. and there is nothing left over. So you always need&nbsp; new fr=
esh ones is why that is not possible.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Who in the hell taught you that totally backward thinking?&nbsp;&nbsp; HERE=20=
IS the concept&nbsp; It&nbsp; IS real simple&nbsp; but probably to simple fo=
r you to grasp&nbsp;&nbsp; You go to Lowes you buy a 99% EFF&gt;&nbsp; fire=20=
place&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW is there any left over once it is burned NO&nbsp; So y=
ou always need a fresh supply of gas&nbsp; CORRECT.&nbsp; Well, electricity=20=
is no different you use it CORRECT.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
WE are squeezing it per se and deriving more juice out of it. And persuaded=20=
that juice to do the majority of work.&nbsp; And let all the boys that were=20=
conducting the vast majority of the work take a rest. WE told them we conned=
 the lazy ones into going to work. and had the enforcers we call up from the=
 earth to keep kicking them in the ass so they work keep working.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 17:47:42 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1de.347303c.2b90189f aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:42:55 EST
Subject:  I sugest Hal contact me as Major players have But I do not care 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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In a message dated 2/27/03 4:24:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:


> Well, I honestly wasn't dumping on  Hal.  I'm sure he has delt with the 
> passionate non-tech many times.  In his response to me, he said that 
> they would be happy to test it and if it works, manufacture and 
> globalize it.  What more could one ask?
> 
>    I have tech. Back up  on Tesla and Einstein's level they would  
99.999999999999% have you as a snack before lunch and not even burp along 
with Hal I would say 99.999%   AS we had Delphi's chief scientists lunch Who 
Hal knows Because Tony Lee a Delphi staff Eng. And vice President told me on 
the phone that he went to see Hal along with Carl Speck Delphi's Chief SCI.   
in 2000/2001 I think.

 They did add or reassigned 1000 Eng. to work on alternative projects after 
seeing him but did after meetings with us    I sent you a global deal that 
contacted me.  Plus we can manufacture If Hal wants to be involved I suggest 
he contact me.  

Just Because do not speak SCI. does not mean I do not know what I'm doing. I 
find you people very amusing  with your restrictice road block causing 
theories that create stone wall thinking   It appears  99% are locked in 
their little box  and will not look outside them in fear they may find 
something they cannot explain    


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 4:24:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Well, I honestly wasn't dumping=
 on&nbsp; Hal.&nbsp; I'm sure he has delt with the <BR>
passionate non-tech many times.&nbsp; In his response to me, he said that <B=
R>
they would be happy to test it and if it works, manufacture and <BR>
globalize it.&nbsp; What more could one ask?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><B>&nbsp;&nbsp; I have tech. Back up&nbsp; on Tesla and Einstei=
n's level they would&nbsp; 99.999999999999% have you as a snack before lunch=
 and not even burp along with Hal I would say 99.999%&nbsp;&nbsp; AS we had=20=
Delphi's chief scientists lunch Who Hal knows Because Tony Lee a Delphi staf=
f Eng. And vice President told me on the phone that he went to see Hal along=
 with Carl Speck Delphi's Chief SCI.&nbsp;&nbsp; in 2000/2001 I think.<BR>
<BR>
 They did add or reassigned 1000 Eng. to work on alternative projects after=20=
seeing him but did after meetings with us&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I sent you a glo=
bal deal that contacted me.&nbsp; Plus we can manufacture If Hal wants to be=
 involved I suggest he contact me.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Just Because do not speak SCI. does not mean I do not know what I'm doing. I=
 find you people very amusing&nbsp; with your restrictice road block causing=
 theories that create stone wall thinking&nbsp;&nbsp; It appears&nbsp; 99% a=
re locked in their little box&nbsp; and will not look outside them in fear t=
hey may find something they cannot explain&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <16e.1b4e7ce0.2b901b5b aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:54:35 EST
Subject: Re: takyons and neutrinos     look at the sky
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         Go outside and look at the sky at night what do you see if the stars 
are visible  Stars Correct? Are they Bright? yes, Then they must be emitting 
power Correct.?   Where is the power going MORON    TOM      GEEEEE do you 
think it may be coming this way ?????  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:11:41 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1e0.34766e3.2b901ec5 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:09:09 EST
Subject: Re: Clockwork Orange?A 22 Nd Century Tree 
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In a message dated 2/27/03 11:16:43 AM Eastern Standard Ti

     I can give you possibly the theory solution for solving fossil fuel 
pollution in 3 minutes. And it makes total common > >> sense and is simple to 
>> understand. Think about it.  After a thunder storm the air is fresh and 
>> clean as it once was all the time. Because all the pollution (polluted 
>> particles)  in the atmosphere was charged (atmospheric ionization) and the 
>> particles had there polarity reversed.  So  they became heavier than air 
>> so to speak and fell to earth as acid rain. Which pollutes the soil and 
>> water.   
>> 
>> SOLUTION   GENERATE a frequency into the atmosphere 24/7 that does not 
>> disrupt communications and you can recreate the same process minus the 
>> rain.  You would need say 30 to 50 ft tall ion filtration towers across 
>> the landscape to filter the polluted air falling from the sky. They would 
>> require self contained power sources to be cost feasible. Rain would keep 
>> them clean and polluted particles would collect in a contained at the 
>> bottom that could be emptied. 
>> 
>> But please understand the burning of fossil fuels are not the prime factor 
>> that is destroying our biosphere   What is? Ask science?   Good luck 
>> because I would be very surprised if they had clue one. They are so 
>> wrapped up in all there theories and laws because of there ego driven 
>> thinking. They cannot see past there stuck up arrogant noses. I'm a non 
>> tech. type and I can wade through Ph.D's using just the concepts. Like 
>> they are school children. 

> Non-trees 'better than originals'
> February 25, 2003
> 
> SCIENTISTS are developing an artificial tree which can perform the
> function of living trees better than the real thing - and
> potentially reduce greenhouse gasses by millions of tonnes a year.
> 
> Synthetic models which could sit in an office or trees the size of
> houses are being planned. One tree it is estimated, could remove
> 90,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year - equal to 15,000 cars'
> emissions. 
> 
> The drawback is the non-tree may not provide the same aesthetic
> qualities. 
> 
> "It looks more like a goal post with Venetian blinds," said
> Columbia University physicist, Dr Klaus Lackner, who unveiled it
> at a scientific conference. 
> 
> The synthetic version would draw carbon dioxide out of the air, as
> plants do during photosynthesis, but retain the carbon and not
> release oxygen. 
> 
> On a large scale the trees could easily reduce carbon dioxide
> levels in the atmosphere - responsible for global warming. 
> 
> No working model has yet been developed but it has been designed
> on paper and is ready to go. 
> 
> The tree would capture carbon dioxide then store it in removable
> filters. 
> 
> Dr Lackner estimated that about 250,000 synthetic trees worldwide
> would be needed to soak up the 22 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide
> produced annually. 
> 
> The Daily Telegraph
> 
> 


--part1_1e0.34766e3.2b901ec5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 11:16:43 AM Eastern Standard Ti</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;=20=
I can give you possibly the theory solution for solving fossil fuel pollutio=
n in 3 minutes. And it makes total common <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"B=
ORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-=
LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;=20=
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">sense and is simple=20=
to understand. Think about it.&nbsp; After a thunder storm the air is fresh=20=
and clean as it once was all the time. Because all the pollution (polluted p=
articles)&nbsp; in the atmosphere was charged (atmospheric ionization) and t=
he particles had there polarity reversed.&nbsp; So&nbsp; they became heavier=
 than air so to speak and fell to earth as acid rain. Which pollutes the soi=
l and water.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
SOLUTION&nbsp;&nbsp; GENERATE a frequency into the atmosphere 24/7 that does=
 not disrupt communications and you can recreate the same process minus the=20=
rain.&nbsp; You would need say 30 to 50 ft tall ion filtration towers across=
 the landscape to filter the polluted air falling from the sky. They would r=
equire self contained power sources to be cost feasible. Rain would keep the=
m clean and polluted particles would collect in a contained at the bottom th=
at could be emptied. <BR>
<BR>
But please understand the burning of fossil fuels are not the prime factor t=
hat is destroying our biosphere&nbsp;&nbsp; What is? Ask science?&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Good luck because I would be very surprised if they had clue one. They are=
 so wrapped up in all there theories and laws because of there ego driven th=
inking. They cannot see past there stuck up arrogant noses. I'm a non tech.=20=
type and I can wade through Ph.D's using just the concepts. Like they are sc=
hool children. </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Non-trees 'better than original=
s'<BR>
February 25, 2003<BR>
<BR>
SCIENTISTS are developing an artificial tree which can perform the<BR>
function of living trees better than the real thing - and<BR>
potentially reduce greenhouse gasses by millions of tonnes a year.<BR>
<BR>
Synthetic models which could sit in an office or trees the size of<BR>
houses are being planned. One tree it is estimated, could remove<BR>
90,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year - equal to 15,000 cars'<BR>
emissions. <BR>
<BR>
The drawback is the non-tree may not provide the same aesthetic<BR>
qualities. <BR>
<BR>
"It looks more like a goal post with Venetian blinds," said<BR>
Columbia University physicist, Dr Klaus Lackner, who unveiled it<BR>
at a scientific conference. <BR>
<BR>
The synthetic version would draw carbon dioxide out of the air, as<BR>
plants do during photosynthesis, but retain the carbon and not<BR>
release oxygen. <BR>
<BR>
On a large scale the trees could easily reduce carbon dioxide<BR>
levels in the atmosphere - responsible for global warming. <BR>
<BR>
No working model has yet been developed but it has been designed<BR>
on paper and is ready to go. <BR>
<BR>
The tree would capture carbon dioxide then store it in removable<BR>
filters. <BR>
<BR>
Dr Lackner estimated that about 250,000 synthetic trees worldwide<BR>
would be needed to soak up the 22 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide<BR>
produced annually. <BR>
<BR>
The Daily Telegraph<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1e0.34766e3.2b901ec5_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:20:39 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:19:32 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
References: <46.35fa71b6.2b8fe5d1 aol.com> <006101c2deb0$788cd0e0$b411b83f@computer>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>     Good! Then why not feed 9 amps worth of 120 single phase back to
>     the PC, leaving you about
>     10 Hp worth of  Free Energy, and get off the Grid?
>

You want the kick-start or lead-acid option?

Terrrror

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:31:24 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:28:51 EST
Subject: : [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] DAN are going to the SAE at COBO 
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     DAN you going to the SAE at COBO  I went last year with Press passes   
DENSO   provided the food for the media room  I will take up you up there for 
kick ass food   I just called the west coast to have them contact them for me 
again for this years or just take my old gold color badge with me and show 
them that one possibly or call the SAE  in Pa.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:33:03 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:32:01 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>         Go outside and look at the sky at night what do you see if the stars 
>are visible  Stars Correct? 
>

Now, if fear of encouraging JC, this, combined with e-field questions 
earlier, poses an interesting dilemma.  A photon leaves a star 
propagating in all directions.  The energy is transferred to a rod in my 
retina and I perceive the star (well, TWO photons.....okay 100 photons). 
 The entire energy of the photon is required to fire my rod (oooohh). 
 How does the photon energy diametrically opposite me collapse to fire 
my rod?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:37:13 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:34:46 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
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             THat was cute   NO i want Fart in the wind starting option   If 
you can pull that one off send me a 1000 of them 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:41:39 2003
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>             THat was cute   NO i want Fart in the wind starting option   If 
>you can pull that one off send me a 1000 of them 
>

Jed is the wind power expert.

Pull start?  Interesting!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:41:56 2003
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Subject: Re: takyons and neutrinos     look at the sky
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  I passed that one on to the tech 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 18:45:58 2003
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>  I passed that one on to the tech 
>

Good idea.  Thanks!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 19:31:14 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Clockwork Orange?
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:47:15 -0500
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Hey Robin.

>Nevertheless I'm curious how he intends to bind the CO2.

Yeah, I am too. That's a lot of carbon per tree.

>Re. "esthetic quality" - you thought wind farms were bad?

I don't mean to go out on a limb here, but I
think it's a growth industry Robin. Maybe a good
place to invest some of your green. Call me (wink).

>Cheaper not to chop down the real thing, and aesthetically much more
pleasing.
>(Lower maintenance too).

But more lucrative to log all the existing trees, and
replace them with this new metered variety.

Bwahahahaha,

K.


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:28:39 EST
Subject: Re: I sugest Hal contact me as Major players have But I do not care
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       Tony Lee Said It was You now I'm curious    I wil call Hal And Ask 
Him. I stayed With him In June On my west coast trip.  Plus met him In May 
2001. When Pantone had called and asked me to come out. But he is a pain in 
the ass. Hal  is 80 and looks in his 50's His cousin Avord a Ph.D. physicist 
is 84 and looks like he 100.. 

 Hal  was coming here but still has not received funding for his charged 
clusters. WE are on the verge of starting a new tech. not high tech. CO  And 
have world scale evolutionary new energy and propulsion related products 
unequaled on this planet  Call me if you wish Hal  810 618 9234    

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tony Lee Said It was You now I'm curious&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I=20=
wil call Hal And Ask Him. I stayed With him In June On my west coast trip.&n=
bsp; Plus met him In May 2001. When Pantone had called and asked me to come=20=
out. But he is a pain in the ass. Hal&nbsp; is 80 and looks in his 50's His=20=
cousin Avord a Ph.D. physicist is 84 and looks like he 100.. <BR>
<BR>
 Hal&nbsp; was coming here but still has not received funding for his charge=
d clusters. WE are on the verge of starting a new tech. not high tech. CO&nb=
sp; And have world scale evolutionary new energy and propulsion related prod=
ucts unequaled on this planet&nbsp; Call me if you wish Hal&nbsp; 810 618 92=
34&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Who is going to the SAE at COBO?.
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Subj:   SAE Congress 2003   
Date:   2/27/03 10:28:47 PM Eastern Standard Time   
From:   <A HREF="mailto:meetingreg sae.org">meetingreg@sae.org</A>  
To: <A HREF="mailto:jcarey9622 aol.com">jcarey9622@aol.com</A>  
Sent from the Internet (Details)    
    
           I will take you to the Media room DENSO lays out a class act 
spread for breakfast and lunch. You cannot go in unless you have press passes 
or are with someone who does   

02/27/03 10:22:35 PM 
Customer ID Number: 50057225



Dear John carey:

Thank you for your early registration for the SAE 2003 World Congress Meeting 
& Exhibition to be held March 3-6, 2003, at Cobo Center, Detroit, Michigan. 
The following will confirm your registration as it was received and 
processed: 
Registration Type: ME
Amount Charged $0

Products Selected   
Product Code    Description Quantity    Total $ 
ME  Media   1   $0.00   





Badge mailing has closed. Please bring a copy of this confirmation to the 
registration area to have your badge printed on-site. Registration will be 
available in the following locations during the times listed below: 
Cobo Arena Registration Hours
Friday, February 28, 2003 3:00pm - 5:00pm
Saturday, March 1, 2003 10:00am - 4:00pm
Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:00am - 4:00pm
Monday, March 3, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm
Tuesday, March 4, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm
Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm
Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:00am - 1:00pm

Winter Garden Registration Hours (Located at the Marriot Renaissance Center)
Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:00am - 4:00pm
Monday, March 3, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm
Tuesday, March 6, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm
SAE 2003 Congress Technology...To Go! Visit the world's largest automotive 
bookstore on-site at Cobo or on the web at store.sae.org for the latest 
engineering technology to add to your technical reference library.

- Over 1,000 new papers plus 50 new Special Publications (SP's) from the 2003 
technical program.
- Hundreds of books and CD-ROMs - many reflecting the program's core 
technology areas.
-The latest engineering software.
- Video tutorial products.

CANCELLATION CLAUSE: All cancellations must be received in writing prior to 
the start of the conference. They can be e-mailed to <A HREF="mailto:CustomerService sae.org">CustomerService@sae.org </A>
or call SAE Customer Service at: 1-877-606-7323 or 724-776-4970. 

Special SAE Bookstore Savings Certificate

Thank you for pre-registering for the SAE 2003 World Congress.
Please print and redeem this page at the SAE Bookstore to receive 
$10 off your purchase of $100 or more and an additional $5 off for each $50 
thereafter. 

One coupon per customer, please. Valid only for purchases made at the 
Congress Bookstore on site at Cobo Hall during March 3-7, 2003. 
Non-transferable.   



We look forward to seeing you at the show!
SAE Registration Staff 
 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Subj:   <B>SAE Congress 2=
003 </B>  <BR>
Date:   2/27/03 10:28:47 PM Eastern Standard Time   <BR>
From:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:meetingreg sae.org">meetingreg@sae.org</A>  <BR>
To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:jcarey9622 aol.com">jcarey9622@aol.com</A>  <BR>
<I>Sent from the Internet (Details)</I>    <BR>
    <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>I will take=20=
you to the Media room DENSO lays out a class act spread for breakfast and lu=
nch. You cannot go in unless you have press passes or are with someone who d=
oes&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
02/27/03 10:22:35 PM <BR>
Customer ID Number: 50057225<BR>
<BR>
<IMG  SRC=3D"http://register03.expo-intl.com/barcodetemp/50057225SAE.jpg" WI=
DTH=3D"160" HEIGHT=3D"50" BORDER=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
Dear John carey:<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for your early registration for the SAE 2003 World Congress Meetin=
g &amp; Exhibition to be held March 3-6, 2003, at Cobo Center, Detroit, Mich=
igan. The following will confirm your registration as it was received and pr=
ocessed: <BR>
<B>Registration Type:</B> ME<BR>
<B>Amount Charged</B> $0<BR>
<BR>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>Products Selected   <BR>
Product Code    Description Quantity    Total $ <BR>
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<BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Badge mailing has closed. Please bring a copy of this confirmation to the re=
gistration area to have your badge printed on-site. Registration will be ava=
ilable in the following locations during the times listed below: <BR>
Cobo Arena Registration Hours<BR>
<B>Friday, February 28, 2003 3:00pm - 5:00pm<BR>
Saturday, March 1, 2003 10:00am - 4:00pm<BR>
Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:00am - 4:00pm<BR>
Monday, March 3, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm<BR>
Tuesday, March 4, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm<BR>
Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm<BR>
Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:00am - 1:00pm</B><BR>
<BR>
Winter Garden Registration Hours (Located at the Marriot Renaissance Center)=
<BR>
<B>Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:00am - 4:00pm<BR>
Monday, March 3, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm<BR>
Tuesday, March 6, 2003 7:00am - 4:30pm</B><BR>
SAE 2003 Congress Technology...To Go! Visit the world's largest automotive b=
ookstore on-site at Cobo or on the web at store.sae.org for the latest engin=
eering technology to add to your technical reference library.<BR>
<BR>
- Over 1,000 new papers plus 50 new Special Publications (SP's) from the 200=
3 technical program.<BR>
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ogy areas.<BR>
-The latest engineering software.<BR>
- Video tutorial products.<BR>
<BR>
CANCELLATION CLAUSE: All cancellations must be received in writing prior to=20=
the start of the conference. They can be e-mailed to <A HREF=3D"mailto:Custo=
merService sae.org">CustomerService@sae.org </A>or call SAE Customer Service=
 at: 1-877-606-7323 or 724-776-4970. <BR>
<BR>
Special SAE Bookstore Savings Certificate<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for pre-registering for the SAE 2003 World Congress.<BR>
Please print and redeem this page at the SAE Bookstore to receive <BR>
$10 off your purchase of $100 or more and an additional $5 off for each $50=20=
thereafter. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">One coupon per customer, ple=
ase. Valid only for purchases made at the Congress Bookstore on site at Cobo=
 Hall during March 3-7, 2003. Non-transferable.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">   <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
We look forward to seeing you at the show!<BR>
SAE Registration Staff <BR>
</P></P></FONT> </HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 21:07:57 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <192.166571f0.2b9047f3 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:04:51 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle    ! Funny you should say pull start 
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       SIR    Funny you should mention that because the CadCam is presently 
being done and the Computer Stress test is next  for a gravity drive unit 
that works in theory. That could drive a generator that runs your house or 
scaled up to operate your car or on up to an electric CO. dyno. 

To be smart asses we are going to have a pull start rope on the prototype so 
when they say   WELL  that is perpetual motion we will no its not. You seen 
we had to use a rope to start it and it only took one pull now it will run 
until wears out. That is  when they  will watch their entire scientific edu. 
go up in smoke.

 Then we have the party of the century and 1929 will be recreated. But this 
time it will be  ENG. and Phy. Jumping out of high rises clinging to their 
theory books spouting them,  until they go spat on the pavement.  WE will 
show them the phase conversion first to daze them then  hit  them with the 
knock out punch GD  That will be the one two punch of the century   I could 
care less if you believe that or not.   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<B> SIR&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Funny you should mention that because t=
he CadCam is presently being done and the Computer Stress test is next&nbsp;=
 for a gravity drive unit that works in theory. That could drive a generator=
 that runs your house or scaled up to operate your car or on up to an electr=
ic CO. dyno. <BR>
<BR>
To be smart asses we are going to have a pull start rope on the prototype so=
 when they say&nbsp;&nbsp; WELL&nbsp; that is perpetual motion we will no it=
s not. You seen we had to use a rope to start it and it only took one pull n=
ow it will run until wears out. That is&nbsp; when they&nbsp; will watch the=
ir entire scientific edu. go up in smoke.<BR>
<BR>
 Then we have the party of the century and 1929 will be recreated. But this=20=
time it will be&nbsp; ENG. and Phy. Jumping out of high rises clinging to th=
eir theory books spouting them,&nbsp; until they go spat on the pavement.&nb=
sp; WE will show them the phase conversion first to daze them then&nbsp; hit=
&nbsp; them with the knock out punch GD&nbsp; That will be the one two punch=
 of the century&nbsp;&nbsp; I could care less if you believe that or not.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 22:31:06 2003
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 <3E5D770F.80608 rtpatlanta.com> <a05111b16ba837ab8d673@[209.23.136.48]>
 <3E5E3169.5030601 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:30:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>What can you tell us about how to generate these waves?
>
>Imagine space with no matter.  Suddenly an electron appears, POP! 
>Extending outward from the electron is an electric field filling the 
>universe.  If you could vary the charge on the electron, you would 
>vary the intensity of the e-field correspondingly.  This is a 
>longitudinal or scalar field wave.

Hum, when you vary the voltage, is that the same as varying the 
charge on the electron?

Otto Schmitt believed that it might be possible to create the 
electrodynamic equivalent
of a tsunami wave, any thoughts on how to do this?

Sam Faile was experimenting with noninductive coils which consisted 
of a two conductor cable tied in knots. These are one type of these 
coils. Coils like this and T wave guides are a way of interacting two 
waves in a destructive interference which is said to produce a new 
form of a wave which comes out on the third leg of the T. What kind 
of a wave is that?

There are three types of waves, the longitudinal, the transverse, and 
the Rayleigh. Orthogonal EMF is the electrodynamic equivalent of the 
transverse wave, any thoughts on creating the E D equivalent of the 
other two?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 27 23:26:49 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 01:25:40 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: takyons and neutrinos     look at the sky
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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>          Go outside and look at the sky at night what do you see if the stars
>are visible  Stars Correct? Are they Bright? yes, Then they must be emitting
>power Correct.?

Yes, they are emitting light, and they behave in ways which would 
indicate that they might be matter, but that doesn't prove that they 
are matter.

>Where is the power going MORON    TOM      GEEEEE do you
>think it may be coming this way ?????

There is a line of physical theory, of which Hal Puthoff's articles 
are the latest, which suggests that there is a flow of energy, called 
by various names, one of which is the Zitternbewegung, flowing 
through space. We believe that it might be possible to cohere it, 
which would provide a source of power.

Something is clearly replentishing the energy required to cause the 
standing waves which we call subatomic particles to vibrate.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 01:56:01 2003
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <20030227204053.16714.qmail web40405.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:57:59 -0000
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Way to go Charlie !

thats what its all about,
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!


> All goes back to what I have told people over and over and over and over
> and over and over.
> 
> Power can be tricky to measure. Get someone who is experianced in
> measureing power in strange formats before you start shooting off your
> mouth.   
> 
> Most >-Woodbee-< breakthrough free energyy "I am right and the rest of
> the world is wrong" KoOks make the same set of mistakes.
> 
> They get a "digital" instrument that compensates noise up to a couple
> hundred KHz and maybe 120% of full scale reading,  They trust the meter
> implicitly.  Then they measure input power to something like a poorly
> tuned brush comutated motor that has spectrial content from neer DC to
> neer light. and spikes of current that are 20 or 30 times what the meter
> can measure and like magic they get these real low input current or power
> measurements and the "Device" is doing "way more work" then that.
> 
> Or
> 
> Place a current probe right next to an output transformer and read the
> close field flux of the transformer rather then the actual output current
> showing very high output current.   
> 
> or
> 
> fail to understand the relationship between power and energy...
> 
> or... or... or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> --- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Terry wrote:
> > >
> > > If I understand JC correctly, he is feeding 120 VAC 9 Amp single
> > phase
> > > into a phase converter with a 3 phase delta output.
> > 
> > Interesting. One could conjure up a Static Converter heavy on
> > capacitors such that
> > there would be a huge initial spike on the single phase, then spikes
> > too fast for the
> > ammeter to see, but average out to 9 amps.
> > 
> > The power companies would love that.  :-)
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Frederick
> > >
> > > Terry
> > >
> > 
> 
> 
> =====
> Charles Ford
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 05:33:04 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <c6.1929c4f0.2b90be4e aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:29:50 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle! and a invatation while I'm at the SAE Con. At COBO 
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  Charlie  is totally complicating a simple situation  First You measure The 
imput draw AND THEN  you measure what the machines are using.   Then you 
determine what they should be using by seeing what there specifications would 
be in a normal operating situation   At that point your determinations are 
complete    

 The Equation is  ID+ UD+ Equals OD   For you non SCI types that is Imput 
Draw + Using Draw Equals Over All Determination    Or something like that   
That is  Close enough  Who cares ?  That is How Infinite Energy Did it. I 
have them on Tape. WHY DO you people have to cluster you know what 
everything. ENG. just love plumbing the more the better. It is like a fetish 
to them.  Keep it simple for the common everyday folk. 

 That is why  Every time at GM  for the 30 years I was there when an EE would 
show up on a JOB. WE would stop working until he got the Hint and left.  WE 
Did not allow ENG. on jobs.  Sometimes we had to become rude because he was 
to dense to get the Hint he was not wanted. Unless he was open minded and 
asked what was happening and showed an interest in learning. Instead of start 
giving orders about something he knew zero about which was the operational 
side.  

Because we wanted projects to function when we completed them Not break down 
every 5 minutes. Because every time Management insisted they be involved 
situations would brake down all the time. When they were not we would not 
have any problems.  Those are my personal experiences over 30 years.

  ONCE we trained management and Eng.'s we did not have any problems from 
them after that. They are like dogs. Once they are trained they will mind. 
Management was easy to train. Because we controlled production. But Eng. They 
were next to impossible. Theory does not apply to operational situations. Do 
you think they could ever understand that?  the answer is NO BUT they did 
learn not to come around Unless they were contacted and asked to.   

The guys that were interested in learning operational aspects of situations 
are now some of my best friends. I will be taking many of them to breakfast 
and lunch in the Media room at the SAE  World Conference Next week at COBO in 
Detroit. 

 AS I did last year Because they cannot get in without press passes.  Plus it 
is FREE because Denso pays for the catering. If you want I will take any of 
you to. Just let me know if your going to be there. for the four days. It 
does not cost me anything.   SO I do not care 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2><B>&nbsp; Charlie&nbsp; i=
s totally complicating a simple situation&nbsp; First You measure The imput=20=
draw AND THEN&nbsp; you measure what the machines are using.&nbsp;&nbsp; The=
n you determine what they should be using by seeing what there specification=
s would be in a normal operating situation&nbsp;&nbsp; At that point your de=
terminations are complete&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 The Equation is&nbsp; ID+ UD+ Equals OD&nbsp;&nbsp; For you non SCI types t=
hat is Imput Draw + Using Draw Equals Over All Determination&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Or something like that&nbsp;&nbsp; That is&nbsp; Close enough&nbsp; Who c=
ares ?&nbsp; That is How Infinite Energy Did it. I have them on Tape. WHY DO=
 you people have to cluster you know what everything. ENG. just love plumbin=
g the more the better. It is like a fetish to them.&nbsp; Keep it simple for=
 the common everyday folk. <BR>
<BR>
 That is why&nbsp; Every time at GM&nbsp; for the 30 years I was there when=20=
an EE would show up on a JOB. WE would stop working until he got the Hint an=
d left.&nbsp; WE Did not allow ENG. on jobs.&nbsp; Sometimes we had to becom=
e rude because he was to dense to get the Hint he was not wanted. Unless he=20=
was open minded and asked what was happening and showed an interest in learn=
ing. Instead of start giving orders about something he knew zero about which=
 was the operational side.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Because we wanted projects to function when we completed them Not break down=
 every 5 minutes. Because every time Management insisted they be involved si=
tuations would brake down all the time. When they were not we would not have=
 any problems.&nbsp; Those are my personal experiences over 30 years.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; ONCE we trained management and Eng.'s we did not have any problems fr=
om them after that. They are like dogs. Once they are trained they will mind=
. Management was easy to train. Because we controlled production. But Eng. T=
hey were next to impossible. Theory does not apply to operational situations=
. Do you think they could ever understand that?&nbsp; the answer is NO BUT t=
hey did learn not to come around Unless they were contacted and asked to.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The guys that were interested in learning operational aspects of situations=20=
are now some of my best friends. I will be taking many of them to breakfast=20=
and lunch in the Media room at the SAE&nbsp; World Conference Next week at C=
OBO in Detroit. <BR>
<BR>
 AS I did last year Because they cannot get in without press passes.&nbsp; P=
lus it is FREE because Denso pays for the catering. If you want I will take=20=
any of you to. Just let me know if your going to be there. for the four days=
. It does not cost me anything.&nbsp;&nbsp; SO I do not care </B></FONT></HT=
ML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 06:27:58 2003
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Message-ID: <001501c2df4e$31a2ef40$4a41ccd1 asus>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <20030227204053.16714.qmail web40405.mail.yahoo.com> <007f01c2df0f$e06ae300$658ecbc1@pc>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:23:55 -0800
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The only reliable way to measure power from an exotic device is to use
specialized wideband power meters or a particular oscilloscope from Texas
Instruments designed to do just this, among other things. That instrument
has two 100 MHz inputs, totally isolated from each other, so one can measure
current and the other voltage. Take a time window sample and it will compute
the instantaneous power as well as giving a true RMS summary.

As has been pointed out, every other "power meter" has built in assumptions
about the waveforms and duty cycles and phase angles and can be spoofed by
unusual waveforms and phase angles produced by inventors.

Having the device power a resistive load for an extended period is also
reliable, but calorimetry is then needed to measure the heat produced, and
that can be quite tricky unless the effect is very large.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 06:35:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:32:19 EST
Subject: Re: takyons and neutrinos     look at the sky
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In a message dated 2/28/03 2:27:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> >          Go outside and look at the sky at night what do you see if the 
> stars
> >are visible  Stars Correct? Are they Bright? yes, Then they must be 
> emitting
> >power Correct.?
> 
> Yes, they are emitting light, and they behave in ways which would 
> indicate that they might be matter, but that doesn't prove that they 
> are matter.
>        REPLY Light frequency is power either way 
> >Where is the power going MORON    TOM      GEEEEE do you
> >think it may be coming this way ?????
> 
> There is a line of physical theory, of which Hal Puthoff's articles 
> are the latest, which suggests that there is a flow of energy, called 
> by various names, one of which is the Zitternbewegung, 
> 
   REPLY   Hal what in the hell is that word   Who is going to be able to 
pronounce that word.  KEEP IT SIMPLE HAL as I do 
 
  flowing > through space. We believe that it might be possible to cohere it, 
> which would provide a source of power.

>          REPLY  HAL where  did you come up with  that from ?   Because I 
> been Saying that  for a long time You know that. You have been seeing my 
> mails for two years.   
  BUT i can explain how the process functions by calling the Tech's for the 
tech aspects   Can HAL  or any of you on TV  In front of the world   Who 
wants to play Hard ball?   

PUTOFF or SHUTOFF. BUT first you may want to ask the Chief Scientist of 
Delphi What I put him through. He was sweating and then  stuttering and 
almost could not stop.  I pounded him for two hours in the first meeting 
witch only I attended  

   You people are starting to bore me Especially you TOM   I join this site 
to learn. But I have learned Zero so far. I had to teach you people    IT is 
a source of power but you cannot convert it you can only use it. Tesla the 
reason your an electrical TOM  said it is far easier to use an atom   than 
split it.

  HE was Correct.  Einstein  was wrong when he supported  splitting  atoms.   
Because it is the unnatural way. AS with the molecule of water.  Your body 
uses it in a natural way. Steven Greers new toy uses it in an unnatural way.  
There is where the problem Occurs    DO NOT SCREW WITH MOTHER NATURE   

  Something is clearly replentishing the energy required to cause the > 
> standing waves which we call subatomic particles to vibrate.
>       REPLY  No Shit  it would appear that way wouldn't it  ?    Finally it 
> may be getting through to you people  because I have been harping about it 
> long enough Now you know why I joined this group.     I have given you the 
> concept  Explanation  Now provide a better one if you can  PLUS how do you 
> think the process functions ???? If what has been stated is correct?  
> Assume it is for Discussion  purposes only.   

  LETS SEE if you have what is required to evolve BUT you will have to step 
out the box first. When your ready 
> to make that move let me know.  Interesting There may be a possibility 
> Cracks are beginning to appear in the stone wall  I have been pounding on 
> them long enough with a sledge Hammer  approach  that has to have an 
> effect.  
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/28/0=
3 2:27:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Go outside and look at the sky at night what do=20=
you see if the stars<BR>
&gt;are visible&nbsp; Stars Correct? Are they Bright? yes, Then they must be=
 emitting<BR>
&gt;power Correct.?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, they are emitting light, and they behave in ways which would <BR>
indicate that they might be matter, but that doesn't prove that they <BR>
are matter.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY Light frequency is power eithe=
r way </B><BR>
&gt;Where is the power going MORON&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TOM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; GEEEEE do you<BR>
&gt;think it may be coming this way ?????<BR>
<BR>
There is a line of physical theory, of which Hal Puthoff's articles <BR>
are the latest, which suggests that there is a flow of energy, called <BR>
by various names, one of which is the Zitternbewegung, <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal what in the hell is that word&nbsp;&nb=
sp; Who is going to be able to pronounce that word.&nbsp; KEEP IT SIMPLE HAL=
 as I do <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> </B><BR>
&nbsp; flowing <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px sol=
id; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">through space. W=
e believe that it might be possible to cohere it, <BR>
which would provide a source of power.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&n=
bsp; HAL where&nbsp; did you come up with&nbsp; that from ?&nbsp;&nbsp; Beca=
use I been Saying that&nbsp; for a long time You know that. You have been se=
eing my mails for two years.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" sty=
le=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial=
" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
&nbsp; <B>BUT i can explain how the process functions by calling the Tech's=20=
for the tech aspects&nbsp;&nbsp; Can HAL&nbsp; or any of you on TV&nbsp; In=20=
front of the world&nbsp;&nbsp; Who wants to play Hard ball?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
PUTOFF or SHUTOFF. BUT first you may want to ask the Chief Scientist of Delp=
hi What I put him through. He was sweating and then&nbsp; stuttering and alm=
ost could not stop.&nbsp; I pounded him for two hours in the first meeting w=
itch only I attended&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>You people are starting to bore me Especially you TOM&nbsp;&=
nbsp; I join this site to learn. But I have learned Zero so far. I had to te=
ach you people&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IT is a source of power but you cannot conv=
ert it you can only use it. Tesla the reason your an electrical TOM&nbsp; sa=
id it is far easier to use an atom&nbsp;&nbsp; than split it.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; HE was Correct.&nbsp; Einstein&nbsp; was wrong when he supported&nbsp=
; splitting&nbsp; atoms.&nbsp;&nbsp; Because it is the unnatural way. AS wit=
h the molecule of water.&nbsp; Your body uses it in a natural way. Steven Gr=
eers new toy uses it in an unnatural way.&nbsp; There is where the problem O=
ccurs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DO NOT SCREW WITH MOTHER NATURE&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; Something is clearly=20=
replentishing the energy required to cause the <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
standing waves which we call subatomic particles to vibrate.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; No Shit&nbsp; it would appear=20=
that way wouldn't it&nbsp; ?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Finally it may be getting thr=
ough to you people&nbsp; because I have been harping about it long enough No=
w you know why I joined this group.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have given you=
 the concept&nbsp; Explanation&nbsp; Now provide a better one if you can&nbs=
p; PLUS how do you think the process functions ???? If what has been stated=20=
is correct?&nbsp; Assume it is for Discussion&nbsp; purposes only.&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; <B>LETS SEE if you ha=
ve what is required to evolve BUT you will have to step out the box first. W=
hen your ready </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>to make that move let me know.&nbsp; Interesting There m=
ay be a possibility Cracks are beginning to appear in the stone wall&nbsp; I=
 have been pounding on them long enough with a sledge Hammer&nbsp; approach&=
nbsp; that has to have an effect.&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1a9.11514a9a.2b90d64f aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:12:15 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!  Mike Carrell Speaks 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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In a message dated 2/28/03 9:27:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikec snip.net 
writes:


> The only reliable way to measure power from an exotic device is to use
> specialized wideband power meters or a particular oscilloscope from Texas
> Instruments designed to do just this, among other things. That instrument
> has two 100 MHz inputs, totally isolated from each other, so one can 
> measure
> current and the other voltage. Take a time window sample and it will 
> compute
> the instantaneous power as well as giving a true RMS summary.

>   REPLY   THAT is still not advanced  enough  the level of instruments 
> actually required have not Been designed as of yet but are on the drawings 
> boards.  But you will see on a standard oscilloscope a wave pattern that is 
> very unique.  Phase Converters love dirty imput 

    But just the opposite of what it is now. The 3 phase motors  do not like 
cold whether as they do now. YOU 
> just cannot apply know knowledge to this. WHY do you keep attempting to. 
> ????? You will not evolve PERIOD by doing so.  THE question is Do you want 
> to evolve or not?????/  I'm tired of playing with you and those set in 
> stone theories. Do I need to use the Sledge Hammer ????/   

    The frequency aspects that are the now wasted aspects are a bred on to 
themselves. Plus the drawn from 
> the earth natural frequency's all inclusive are what is required to create 
> the magnet flux and plasma fields. At the current pace of science we are a 
> century away if not longer from understanding those dynamics. It depends on 
> how long they stay locked in a box with there theories. 

    I'm sorry What I'm stating now is absolute  AS you think your theories 
are  YOU will have to discard the 
> Phase Angle BOOK    PERIOD. THERE are no choices   THe operational side is 
> an entire different world than the theory side   DO AS YOU WISH>      
> 
> As has been pointed out, every other "power meter" has built in assumptions
> about the waveforms and duty cycles and phase angles and can be spoofed by
> unusual waveforms and phase angles produced by inventors.
> 
> Having the device power a resistive load for an extended period is also
> reliable, but calorimetry is then needed to measure the heat produced, and
> that can be quite tricky unless the effect is very large.
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/28/0=
3 9:27:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikec snip.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The only reliable way to measur=
e power from an exotic device is to use<BR>
specialized wideband power meters or a particular oscilloscope from Texas<BR=
>
Instruments designed to do just this, among other things. That instrument<BR=
>
has two 100 MHz inputs, totally isolated from each other, so one can measure=
<BR>
current and the other voltage. Take a time window sample and it will compute=
<BR>
the instantaneous power as well as giving a true RMS summary.</FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; THA=
T is still not advanced&nbsp; enough&nbsp; the level of instruments actually=
 required have not Been designed as of yet but are on the drawings boards.&n=
bsp; But you will see on a standard oscilloscope a wave pattern that is very=
 unique.&nbsp; Phase Converters love dirty imput </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> But ju=
st the opposite of what it is now. The 3 phase motors&nbsp; do not like cold=
 whether as they do now. YOU </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>just cannot apply know knowledge to this. WHY do you kee=
p attempting to. ????? You will not evolve PERIOD by doing so.&nbsp; THE que=
stion is Do you want to evolve or not?????/&nbsp; I'm tired of playing with=20=
you and those set in stone theories. Do I need to use the Sledge Hammer ????=
/&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ff=
ffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>The fr=
equency aspects that are the now wasted aspects are a bred on to themselves.=
 Plus the drawn from </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR=
>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>the earth natural frequency's all inclusive are what is=20=
required to create the magnet flux and plasma fields. At the current pace of=
 science we are a century away if not longer from understanding those dynami=
cs. It depends on how long they stay locked in a box with there theories. </=
FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 F=
AMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>I'm so=
rry What I'm stating now is absolute&nbsp; AS you think your theories are&nb=
sp; YOU will have to discard the </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Phase Angle BOOK&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PERIOD. THERE are no=20=
choices&nbsp;&nbsp; THe operational side is an entire different world than t=
he theory side&nbsp;&nbsp; DO AS YOU WISH&gt;&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><BR>
As has been pointed out, every other "power meter" has built in assumptions<=
/FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=20=
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">about the waveforms and duty cycles and phase angles and ca=
n be spoofed by<BR>
unusual waveforms and phase angles produced by inventors.<BR>
<BR>
Having the device power a resistive load for an extended period is also<BR>
reliable, but calorimetry is then needed to measure the heat produced, and<B=
R>
that can be quite tricky unless the effect is very large.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Carrell<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1c2.5d14e28.2b90d9eb aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:27:39 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle! Let Me  ADD Mike 
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            Gary Vespermen An EE  From Vegas came with a World Class Physicst 
also from Vegas by the Name of Ralph Cruise who has appeard on Doc's  With  
them was a Ph.d M. E from Chicago  It was so plain to see from the 
operational aspects they left their meters in the mini van that as far asi 
know they brought because it was discussed prior to.   WHAT DOES THAT TELL 
YOU???????????????  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; Gary Vespermen An EE&nbsp; From=
 Vegas came with a World Class Physicst also from Vegas by the Name of Ralph=
 Cruise who has appeard on Doc's&nbsp; With&nbsp; them was a Ph.d M. E from=20=
Chicago&nbsp; It was so plain to see from the operational aspects they left=20=
their meters in the mini van that as far asi know they brought because it wa=
s discussed prior to.&nbsp;&nbsp; WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU???????????????&nbs=
p; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:30:48 EST
Subject: Fwd: [Antigravity] Chemists Discover New Molecules That Excel at Shedding Ele...
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In a message dated 2/27/2003 7:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
onthecuttingedge2005 yahoo.com writes:

> Subj: [Antigravity] Chemists Discover New Molecules That Excel at Shedding=
=20
> Electrons=20
>  Date: 2/27/2003 7:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: <A HREF=3D"mailto:onthecuttingedge2005 yahoo.com">onthecuttingedge2=
005 yahoo.com</A>
>  Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yaho=
ogroups.com</A>
>  To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroup=
s.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:astronomyforbeginners yahoogroups.com">astronom=
yforbeginners yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:astronomypicturegallery=
club yahoogroups.com">
> astronomypicturegalleryclub yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:free_en=
ergy yahoogroups.com">free_energy@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:gre=
englow yahoogroups.com">
> greenglow yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com">=
jlnlabs yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Lifters@yahoogroups.com">Lift=
ers yahoogroups.com</A>
> , <A HREF=3D"mailto:michiokakusscienceforum yahoogroups.com">michiokakussc=
ienceforum yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:PopularScience@yahoogroups=
.com">PopularScience yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:quantum_computin=
g yahoogroups.com">
> quantum_computing yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:S.W.Hawking@damtp=
.cam.ac.uk">S.W.Hawking damtp.cam.ac.uk</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:scientificame=
rican yahoogroups.com">
> scientificamerican yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:SFTeslaSociety@y=
ahoogroups.com">SFTeslaSociety yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Techno=
logyExplorers yahoogroups.com">
> TechnologyExplorers yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Thinkers-Intern=
ational yahoogroups.com">Thinkers-International@yahoogroups.com</A>
> , <A HREF=3D"mailto:time-space yahoogroups.com">time-space@yahoogroups.com=
</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Time_Travel yahoogroups.com">Time_Travel@yahoogroups=
.com</A>
>  Sent from the Internet=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Anyone who's taken chemistry might know that the element cesium is the=20
> hands-down champ when it comes to "ionizing,' or giving up electrons.=20
>=20
> And up until about six months ago, they'd be right.=20
>=20
> But in recently announced work that was quickly heralded as one of the=20
> highlights in chemistry for 2002, chemists have developed a remarkable new=
=20
> class of stable molecules that ionize easier than anything on the periodic=
=20
> table, including cesium.=20
>=20
> "The ease with which an atom gives up electrons is one of its most=20
> important and basic characteristics because that defines the atom's=20
> chemistry and capabilities," said University of Arizona chemistry Professo=
r=20
> Dennis L. Lichtenberger. "Until now, we've been limited by the range of=20
> what atoms can do and what we can do with molecules."=20
>=20
> "At the simplest level, all chemistry, biochemistry and materials/optical=20
> science is based upon the movement of electrons from one molecule to=20
> another," added Nadine E. Gruhn, director of the UA chemistry department's=
=20
> unique Center for Gas-Phase Electron Spectroscopy. Given the properties of=
=20
> the new molecules, they have potential uses in materials science, optics,=20
> medicine, and other fields, she added.=20
>=20
> The UA gas-phase electron spectroscopy facility, which Lichtenberger began=
=20
> to develop when he joined the UA in 1976, is probably the only lab in the=20
> world that could have made the measurements needed to predict how to make=20
> such molecules. The lab is unique in its ability to measure ionization=20
> energies of large, highly reactive molecules with extreme precision.=20
>=20
> Lichtenberger and Gruhn collaborated in the discovery with distinguished=20
> Texas A &M University chemist F. Albert Cotton, who synthesized the new=20
> class of molecules last summer. They reported it in the Dec. 6 issue of=20
> Science. Other authors on the research paper include Jiande Gu of the=20
> Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, China; UA graduate student Laura O.=20
> Van Dorn; and Texas A &M chemists Penglin Huang, Carlos Murillo and Chad=20
> Wilkinson.=20
>=20
> Chemical and Engineering News cited the achievement as one of the year's=20
> highlights in inorganic chemistry ten days after the research was=20
> published. Scientists in Russia, China, the United States and elsewhere=20
> sent their congratulations. Industries with proprietary interests began=20
> making discreet inquiries as to details.=20
>=20
> "Now that we know how to make these molecules, it is not all that difficul=
t=20
> to make them in quantities," Lichtenberger said.=20
>=20
> The new molecules are two metal atoms bound tightly together by four pairs=
=20
> of electrons, a very unusual class of molecules because they are=20
> simultaneously so stable yet 10 percent more efficient at donating=20
> electrons than is cesium.=20
>=20
> "You can think of these metals as two atoms of a metal wire, surrounded by=
=20
> an organic insulator, atoms of nitrogen and carbon," Lichtenberger said.=20
> "Normally, the organic insulator isn't very interesting, as far as=20
> electronic properties go. But when these particular organic molecules=20
> surround these particular metals, they form both strong bonds and an=20
> additional interaction that results in electrons just waiting to jump off,=
"=20
> he said.=20
>=20
> The researchers made the new molecules using chromium, molybdenum or=20
> tungsten as metals.=20
>=20
> "The amazing thing in the beginning was finding any system that we could=20
> design that would get the electrons to stick there in the first place, whe=
n=20
> they are so ready to go anywhere else. It is something that a number of=20
> people didn't really think was going to be possible," Lichtenberger said.=20
>=20
> Cotton described it as the same kind of problem chemists would have if the=
y=20
> came up with the perfect solvent. If you could make a perfect solvent that=
=20
> would dissolve everything, what would you keep it in?=20
>=20
> The new molecules are so stable "that you can have them in a bottle,=20
> sitting on your shelf, " Lichtenberger said. "We have heated small test=20
> samples in the laboratory up to nearly 300 degrees Celsius (572 degrees=20
> Fahrenheit) and they're still stable. It is just remarkable."=20
>=20
> Much of Lichtenberger's research focuses on understanding the stability an=
d=20
> behavior of molecules. He and Cotton have been collaborating in studies of=
=20
> these "dimetal" molecules since the early 1980s.=20
>=20
> As the collaborators neared their goal =E2=80=93 Lichtenberger and Gruhn p=
redicted=20
> the lowest-ever ionizing molecules last January =E2=80=93 Lichtenberger re=
alized he=20
> was going to need time away from his administrative duties and concluded=20
> his eight years' service as head of the UA chemistry department.=20
>=20
> "With the computation tools we use, and in extrapolations from experiments=
=20
> we've already done, we can design new molecules with ever lower ionization=
=20
> energies," he predicts.=20
>=20
> Already funded by the National Science Foundation to build the next=20
> generation gas-phase electron spectrometer, the UA scientists are pursuing=
=20
> a new collaborative project with Cotton and others. One goal is to link th=
e=20
> new molecules end-to-end to create molecular-scale, single atom wires that=
=20
> could be extremely useful conductors.=20
>=20
> "We've progressed much faster than I thought we would when I started=20
> working on this," Lichtenberger said. "It's exciting times."=20
>=20
> Best of wishes.
>=20
>  Jerry.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Visit My Site: <A HREF=3D"http://hometown.aol.com/earthwindfireh20/WarpCoi=
lConceptsindex.html">
> http://hometown.aol.com/earthwindfireh20/WarpCoilConceptsindex.html</A>
>=20
>  =20
>=20
>=20
> Do you Yahoo!?
> <A HREF=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com=
/">Yahoo! Tax Center</A> - forms, calculators, tips, and more=20
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <A HREF=3D"http://docs.yahoo.c=
om/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</A>.=20
>=20



Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/27/2003 7:01:16 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, onthecuttingedge2005 yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj: <B>[Antigravity] Chemists=
 Discover New Molecules That Excel at Shedding Electrons </B><BR>
 Date: 2/27/2003 7:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time<BR>
 From: <A HREF=3D"mailto:onthecuttingedge2005 yahoo.com">onthecuttingedge200=
5 yahoo.com</A><BR>
 Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoog=
roups.com</A><BR>
 To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroups.=
com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:astronomyforbeginners yahoogroups.com">astronomyf=
orbeginners yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:astronomypicturegallerycl=
ub yahoogroups.com">astronomypicturegalleryclub@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=
=3D"mailto:free_energy yahoogroups.com">free_energy@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A=20=
HREF=3D"mailto:greenglow yahoogroups.com">greenglow@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A=20=
HREF=3D"mailto:jlnlabs yahoogroups.com">jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=
=3D"mailto:Lifters yahoogroups.com">Lifters@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"=
mailto:michiokakusscienceforum yahoogroups.com">michiokakusscienceforum@yaho=
ogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:PopularScience yahoogroups.com">PopularSc=
ience yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:quantum_computing@yahoogroups.c=
om">quantum_computing yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:S.W.Hawking@dam=
tp.cam.ac.uk">S.W.Hawking damtp.cam.ac.uk</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:scientifica=
merican yahoogroups.com">scientificamerican@yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"=
mailto:SFTeslaSociety yahoogroups.com">SFTeslaSociety@yahoogroups.com</A>, <=
A HREF=3D"mailto:TechnologyExplorers yahoogroups.com">TechnologyExplorers@ya=
hoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Thinkers-International yahoogroups.com"=
>Thinkers-International yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:time-space@ya=
hoogroups.com">time-space yahoogroups.com</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Time_Travel=
 yahoogroups.com">Time_Travel@yahoogroups.com</A><BR>
 <I>Sent from the Internet </I><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who's taken chemistry might know that the element cesium is the hands=
-down champ when it comes to "ionizing,' or giving up electrons. <BR>
<BR>
And up until about six months ago, they'd be right. <BR>
<BR>
But in recently announced work that was quickly heralded as one of the highl=
ights in chemistry for 2002, chemists have developed a remarkable new class=20=
of stable molecules that ionize easier than anything on the periodic table,=20=
including cesium. <BR>
<BR>
"The ease with which an atom gives up electrons is one of its most important=
 and basic characteristics because that defines the atom's chemistry and cap=
abilities," said University of Arizona chemistry Professor Dennis L. Lichten=
berger. "Until now, we've been limited by the range of what atoms can do and=
 what we can do with molecules." <BR>
<BR>
"At the simplest level, all chemistry, biochemistry and materials/optical sc=
ience is based upon the movement of electrons from one molecule to another,"=
 added Nadine E. Gruhn, director of the UA chemistry department's unique Cen=
ter for Gas-Phase Electron Spectroscopy. Given the properties of the new mol=
ecules, they have potential uses in materials science, optics, medicine, and=
 other fields, she added. <BR>
<BR>
The UA gas-phase electron spectroscopy facility, which Lichtenberger began t=
o develop when he joined the UA in 1976, is probably the only lab in the wor=
ld that could have made the measurements needed to predict how to make such=20=
molecules. The lab is unique in its ability to measure ionization energies o=
f large, highly reactive molecules with extreme precision. <BR>
<BR>
Lichtenberger and Gruhn collaborated in the discovery with distinguished Tex=
as A &amp;M University chemist F. Albert Cotton, who synthesized the new cla=
ss of molecules last summer. They reported it in the Dec. 6 issue of Science=
. Other authors on the research paper include Jiande Gu of the Shanghai Inst=
itute of Materia Medica, China; UA graduate student Laura O. Van Dorn; and T=
exas A &amp;M chemists Penglin Huang, Carlos Murillo and Chad Wilkinson. <BR=
>
<BR>
Chemical and Engineering News cited the achievement as one of the year's hig=
hlights in inorganic chemistry ten days after the research was published. Sc=
ientists in Russia, China, the United States and elsewhere sent their congra=
tulations. Industries with proprietary interests began making discreet inqui=
ries as to details. <BR>
<BR>
"Now that we know how to make these molecules, it is not all that difficult=20=
to make them in quantities," Lichtenberger said. <BR>
<BR>
The new molecules are two metal atoms bound tightly together by four pairs o=
f electrons, a very unusual class of molecules because they are simultaneous=
ly so stable yet 10 percent more efficient at donating electrons than is ces=
ium. <BR>
<BR>
"You can think of these metals as two atoms of a metal wire, surrounded by a=
n organic insulator, atoms of nitrogen and carbon," Lichtenberger said. "Nor=
mally, the organic insulator isn't very interesting, as far as electronic pr=
operties go. But when these particular organic molecules surround these part=
icular metals, they form both strong bonds and an additional interaction tha=
t results in electrons just waiting to jump off," he said. <BR>
<BR>
The researchers made the new molecules using chromium, molybdenum or tungste=
n as metals. <BR>
<BR>
"The amazing thing in the beginning was finding any system that we could des=
ign that would get the electrons to stick there in the first place, when the=
y are so ready to go anywhere else. It is something that a number of people=20=
didn't really think was going to be possible," Lichtenberger said. <BR>
<BR>
Cotton described it as the same kind of problem chemists would have if they=20=
came up with the perfect solvent. If you could make a perfect solvent that w=
ould dissolve everything, what would you keep it in? <BR>
<BR>
The new molecules are so stable "that you can have them in a bottle, sitting=
 on your shelf, " Lichtenberger said. "We have heated small test samples in=20=
the laboratory up to nearly 300 degrees Celsius (572 degrees Fahrenheit) and=
 they're still stable. It is just remarkable." <BR>
<BR>
Much of Lichtenberger's research focuses on understanding the stability and=20=
behavior of molecules. He and Cotton have been collaborating in studies of t=
hese "dimetal" molecules since the early 1980s. <BR>
<BR>
As the collaborators neared their goal =E2=80=93 Lichtenberger and Gruhn pre=
dicted the lowest-ever ionizing molecules last January =E2=80=93 Lichtenberg=
er realized he was going to need time away from his administrative duties an=
d concluded his eight years' service as head of the UA chemistry department.=
 <BR>
<BR>
"With the computation tools we use, and in extrapolations from experiments w=
e've already done, we can design new molecules with ever lower ionization en=
ergies," he predicts. <BR>
<BR>
Already funded by the National Science Foundation to build the next generati=
on gas-phase electron spectrometer, the UA scientists are pursuing a new col=
laborative project with Cotton and others. One goal is to link the new molec=
ules end-to-end to create molecular-scale, single atom wires that could be e=
xtremely useful conductors. <BR>
<BR>
"We've progressed much faster than I thought we would when I started working=
 on this," Lichtenberger said. "It's exciting times." <BR>
<BR>
Best of wishes.<BR>
<BR>
 Jerry.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Visit My Site: <A HREF=3D"http://hometown.aol.com/earthwindfireh20/WarpCoilC=
onceptsindex.html">http://hometown.aol.com/earthwindfireh20/WarpCoilConcepts=
index.html</A><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
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Subject: [Antigravity] Chemists Discover New Molecules That Excel at Shedding Electrons
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Anyone who's taken chemistry might know that the element cesium is the hands=
-down champ when it comes to "ionizing,' or giving up electrons.=20

And up until about six months ago, they'd be right.=20

But in recently announced work that was quickly heralded as one of the highl=
ights in chemistry for 2002, chemists have developed a remarkable new class=20=
of stable molecules that ionize easier than anything on the periodic table,=20=
including cesium.=20

"The ease with which an atom gives up electrons is one of its most important=
 and basic characteristics because that defines the atom's chemistry and cap=
abilities," said University of Arizona chemistry Professor Dennis L. Lichten=
berger. "Until now, we've been limited by the range of what atoms can do and=
 what we can do with molecules."=20

"At the simplest level, all chemistry, biochemistry and materials/optical sc=
ience is based upon the movement of electrons from one molecule to another,"=
 added Nadine E. Gruhn, director of the UA chemistry department's unique Cen=
ter for Gas-Phase Electron Spectroscopy. Given the properties of the new mol=
ecules, they have potential uses in materials science, optics, medicine, and=
 other fields, she added.=20

The UA gas-phase electron spectroscopy facility, which Lichtenberger began t=
o develop when he joined the UA in 1976, is probably the only lab in the wor=
ld that could have made the measurements needed to predict how to make such=20=
molecules. The lab is unique in its ability to measure ionization energies o=
f large, highly reactive molecules with extreme precision.=20

Lichtenberger and Gruhn collaborated in the discovery with distinguished Tex=
as A & M University chemist F. Albert Cotton, who synthesized the new class=20=
of molecules last summer. They reported it in the Dec. 6 issue of Science. O=
ther authors on the research paper include Jiande Gu of the Shanghai Institu=
te of Materia Medica, China; UA graduate student Laura O. Van Dorn; and Texa=
s A & M chemists Penglin Huang, Carlos Murillo and Chad Wilkinson.=20

Chemical and Engineering News cited the achievement as one of the year's hig=
hlights in inorganic chemistry ten days after the research was published. Sc=
ientists in Russia, China, the United States and elsewhere sent their congra=
tulations. Industries with proprietary interests began making discreet inqui=
ries as to details.=20

"Now that we know how to make these molecules, it is not all that difficult=20=
to make them in quantities," Lichtenberger said.=20

The new molecules are two metal atoms bound tightly together by four pairs o=
f electrons, a very unusual class of molecules because they are simultaneous=
ly so stable yet 10 percent more efficient at donating electrons than is ces=
ium.=20

"You can think of these metals as two atoms of a metal wire, surrounded by a=
n organic insulator, atoms of nitrogen and carbon," Lichtenberger said. "Nor=
mally, the organic insulator isn't very interesting, as far as electronic pr=
operties go. But when these particular organic molecules surround these part=
icular metals, they form both strong bonds and an additional interaction tha=
t results in electrons just waiting to jump off," he said.=20

The researchers made the new molecules using chromium, molybdenum or tungste=
n as metals.=20

"The amazing thing in the beginning was finding any system that we could des=
ign that would get the electrons to stick there in the first place, when the=
y are so ready to go anywhere else. It is something that a number of people=20=
didn't really think was going to be possible," Lichtenberger said.=20

Cotton described it as the same kind of problem chemists would have if they=20=
came up with the perfect solvent. If you could make a perfect solvent that w=
ould dissolve everything, what would you keep it in?=20

The new molecules are so stable "that you can have them in a bottle, sitting=
 on your shelf, " Lichtenberger said. "We have heated small test samples in=20=
the laboratory up to nearly 300 degrees Celsius (572 degrees Fahrenheit) and=
 they're still stable. It is just remarkable."=20

Much of Lichtenberger's research focuses on understanding the stability and=20=
behavior of molecules. He and Cotton have been collaborating in studies of t=
hese "dimetal" molecules since the early 1980s.=20

As the collaborators neared their goal =96 Lichtenberger and Gruhn predicted=
 the lowest-ever ionizing molecules last January =96 Lichtenberger realized=20=
he was going to need time away from his administrative duties and concluded=20=
his eight years' service as head of the UA chemistry department.=20

"With the computation tools we use, and in extrapolations from experiments w=
e've already done, we can design new molecules with ever lower ionization en=
ergies," he predicts.=20

Already funded by the National Science Foundation to build the next generati=
on gas-phase electron spectrometer, the UA scientists are pursuing a new col=
laborative project with Cotton and others. One goal is to link the new molec=
ules end-to-end to create molecular-scale, single atom wires that could be e=
xtremely useful conductors.=20

"We've progressed much faster than I thought we would when I started working=
 on this," Lichtenberger said. "It's exciting times."=20

Best of wishes.

Jerry.



Visit My Site: http://hometown.aol.com/earthwindfireh20/WarpCoilConceptsinde=
x.html

=20



---------------------------------
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<html><body>


<P>Anyone who's taken chemistry might know that the element cesium is the ha=
nds-down champ when it comes to "ionizing,' or giving up electrons. </P>
<P>And up until about six months ago, they'd be right. </P>
<P>But in recently announced work that was quickly heralded as one of the hi=
ghlights in chemistry for 2002, chemists have developed a remarkable new cla=
ss of stable molecules that ionize easier than anything on the periodic tabl=
e, including cesium. </P>
<P>"The ease with which an atom gives up electrons is one of its most import=
ant and basic characteristics because that defines the atom's chemistry and=20=
capabilities," said University of Arizona chemistry Professor Dennis L. Lich=
tenberger. "Until now, we've been limited by the range of what atoms can do=20=
and what we can do with molecules." </P>
<P>"At the simplest level, all chemistry, biochemistry and materials/optical=
 science is based upon the movement of electrons from one molecule to anothe=
r," added Nadine E. Gruhn, director of the UA chemistry department's unique=20=
Center for Gas-Phase Electron Spectroscopy. Given the properties of the new=20=
molecules, they have potential uses in materials science, optics, medicine,=20=
and other fields, she added. </P>
<P>The UA gas-phase electron spectroscopy facility, which Lichtenberger bega=
n to develop when he joined the UA in 1976, is probably the only lab in the=20=
world that could have made the measurements needed to predict how to make su=
ch molecules. The lab is unique in its ability to measure ionization energie=
s of large, highly reactive molecules with extreme precision. </P>
<P>Lichtenberger and Gruhn collaborated in the discovery with distinguished=20=
Texas A &amp; M University chemist F. Albert Cotton, who synthesized the new=
 class of molecules last summer. They reported it in the Dec. 6 issue of Sci=
ence. Other authors on the research paper include Jiande Gu of the Shanghai=20=
Institute of Materia Medica, China; UA graduate student Laura O. Van Dorn; a=
nd Texas A &amp; M chemists Penglin Huang, Carlos Murillo and Chad Wilkinson=
. </P>
<P>Chemical and Engineering News cited the achievement as one of the year's=20=
highlights in inorganic chemistry ten days after the research was published.=
 Scientists in Russia, China, the United States and elsewhere sent their con=
gratulations. Industries with proprietary interests began making discreet in=
quiries as to details. </P>
<P>"Now that we know how to make these molecules, it is not all that difficu=
lt to make them in quantities," Lichtenberger said. </P>
<P>The new molecules are two metal atoms bound tightly together by four pair=
s of electrons, a very unusual class of molecules because they are simultane=
ously so stable yet 10 percent more efficient at donating electrons than is=20=
cesium. </P>
<P>"You can think of these metals as two atoms of a metal wire, surrounded b=
y an organic insulator, atoms of nitrogen and carbon," Lichtenberger said. "=
Normally, the organic insulator isn't very interesting, as far as electronic=
 properties go. But when these particular organic molecules surround these p=
articular metals, they form both strong bonds and an additional interaction=20=
that results in electrons just waiting to jump off," he said. </P>
<P>The researchers made the new molecules using chromium, molybdenum or tung=
sten as metals. </P>
<P>"The amazing thing in the beginning was finding any system that we could=20=
design that would get the electrons to stick there in the first place, when=20=
they are so ready to go anywhere else. It is something that a number of peop=
le didn't really think was going to be possible," Lichtenberger said. </P>
<P>Cotton described it as the same kind of problem chemists would have if th=
ey came up with the perfect solvent. If you could make a perfect solvent tha=
t would dissolve everything, what would you keep it in? </P>
<P>The new molecules are so stable "that you can have them in a bottle, sitt=
ing on your shelf, " Lichtenberger said. "We have heated small test samples=20=
in the laboratory up to nearly 300 degrees Celsius (572 degrees Fahrenheit)=20=
and they're still stable. It is just remarkable." </P>
<P>Much of Lichtenberger's research focuses on understanding the stability a=
nd behavior of molecules. He and Cotton have been collaborating in studies o=
f these "dimetal" molecules since the early 1980s. </P>
<P>As the collaborators neared their goal =96 Lichtenberger and Gruhn predic=
ted the lowest-ever ionizing molecules last January =96 Lichtenberger realiz=
ed he was going to need time away from his administrative duties and conclud=
ed his eight years' service as head of the UA chemistry department. </P>
<P>"With the computation tools we use, and in extrapolations from experiment=
s we've already done, we can design new molecules with ever lower ionization=
 energies," he predicts. </P>
<P>Already funded by the National Science Foundation to build the next gener=
ation gas-phase electron spectrometer, the UA scientists are pursuing a new=20=
collaborative project with Cotton and others. One goal is to link the new mo=
lecules end-to-end to create molecular-scale, single atom wires that could b=
e extremely useful conductors. </P>
<P>"We've progressed much faster than I thought we would when I started work=
ing on this," Lichtenberger said. "It's exciting times." </P>
<P>Best of wishes.</P>
<P>Jerry.</P><BR><BR><P>Visit My Site: <A href=3D"http://hometown.aol.com/ea=
rthwindfireh20/WarpCoilConceptsindex.html">http://hometown.aol.com/earthwind=
fireh20/WarpCoilConceptsindex.html</A></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P><p><br><hr size=3D1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/"=
>Yahoo! Tax Center</a> - forms, calculators, tips, and more
<br>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <a2.3428a940.2b90dd4f aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:42:07 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!  While i'm at it 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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In a message dated 2/28/03 9:27:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikec snip.net 
writes:


> As has been pointed out, every other "power meter" has built in assumptions
> about the waveforms and duty cycles and phase angles and can be spoofed by
> unusual waveforms and phase angles produced by inventors.
> 
>           ASSUMPTIONS    THe Smart ones  do not do  this because it is 
unwise  But the ones that think they know it all    THat is all they know.  
Is arrive at a conclusion before investigating  GEEEE I wish I could do that. 
 THen I would be perfect    


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/28/0=
3 9:27:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikec snip.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">As has been pointed out, every=20=
other "power meter" has built in assumptions<BR>
about the waveforms and duty cycles and phase angles and can be spoofed by<B=
R>
unusual waveforms and phase angles produced by inventors.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> ASSUM=
PTIONS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THe Smart ones&nbsp; do not do&nbsp; this because i=
t is unwise&nbsp; But the ones that think they know it all&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 THat is all they know.&nbsp; Is arrive at a conclusion before investigating=
&nbsp; GEEEE I wish I could do that.&nbsp; THen I would be perfect&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 08:12:24 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <107.20265fd3.2b90e38b aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:08:43 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Where does electricity come from?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, yahoo1@ka9q.net, Flagstart@aol.com
CC: free_energy yahoogroups.com
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In a message dated 2/26/03 8:29:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, yahoo1 ka9q.net 
writes:
            PHASE conversion eliminates the loss factor Phil speaks of. Plus 
even Reg. Generators have Different EFF. levels  some higher than others.   
WItch is a KEY point No one wants to take into consideration Because the 
higher the EFF. The LESS LESS LESS they require as far as draw factors.  That 
one is where they miss  it every time   

> John Ryder  wrote:
> > All the generators I have seen,
> > have a shaft that spins a bunch
> > of wire and/or magnets, inside
> > and around a bunch of wire and/or
> > magnets, with wires running from
> > the coils of wire from the inner and/or
> > outer bunch of wire to 2 poles, one
> > positive and the other negative.
> > Where does the electricity come from?
> > Is it transmitted through the rotational
> > force of the shaft to the coils, to the poles?
> > Does it act as a pump for the negative charge
> > to sucked up by the generator only to be pumped
> > back into the Earth?
> > Is it a antenna collector?
> > If you look a generator, you are collecting
> > a force from another force.
> > I bet the first people to see a generator
> > thought it was Free Energy.
> > John Ryder
> 
> I haven't seen a reply to this, so I'll answer it.
> 
> A generator converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. It doesn't 
> and cannot create any energy on its own.
> 
> If you don't put an electrical load on the generator, its shaft will be 
> fairly easy to turn as it will need only as much mechanical energy as is 
> required to overcome the generator's internal losses, including friction 
> in the bearings and the excitation energy, if applicable. As soon as you 
> put an electrical load on the generator, it will take additional 
> mechanical torque to turn the shaft.
> 
> This is easy to demonstrate with most cars. Start the engine and let it 
> idle. Then turn on the headlights. You will usually hear the engine load 
> down slightly as it is called on to produce additional mechanical power 
> to turn the alternator.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/26/0=
3 8:29:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, yahoo1 ka9q.net writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> PHASE=20=
conversion eliminates the loss factor Phil speaks of. Plus even Reg. Generat=
ors have Different EFF. levels&nbsp; some higher than others.&nbsp;&nbsp; WI=
tch is a KEY point No one wants to take into consideration Because the highe=
r the EFF. The LESS LESS LESS they require as far as draw factors.&nbsp; Tha=
t one is where they miss&nbsp; it every time&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">John Ryder&nbsp; wrote:<BR>
&gt; All the generators I have seen,<BR>
&gt; have a shaft that spins a bunch<BR>
&gt; of wire and/or magnets, inside<BR>
&gt; and around a bunch of wire and/or<BR>
&gt; magnets, with wires running from<BR>
&gt; the coils of wire from the inner and/or<BR>
&gt; outer bunch of wire to 2 poles, one<BR>
&gt; positive and the other negative.<BR>
&gt; Where does the electricity come from?<BR>
&gt; Is it transmitted through the rotational<BR>
&gt; force of the shaft to the coils, to the poles?<BR>
&gt; Does it act as a pump for the negative charge<BR>
&gt; to sucked up by the generator only to be pumped<BR>
&gt; back into the Earth?<BR>
&gt; Is it a antenna collector?<BR>
&gt; If you look a generator, you are collecting<BR>
&gt; a force from another force.<BR>
&gt; I bet the first people to see a generator<BR>
&gt; thought it was Free Energy.<BR>
&gt; John Ryder<BR>
<BR>
I haven't seen a reply to this, so I'll answer it.<BR>
<BR>
A generator converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. It doesn't <BR>
and cannot create any energy on its own.<BR>
<BR>
If you don't put an electrical load on the generator, its shaft will be <BR>
fairly easy to turn as it will need only as much mechanical energy as is <BR=
>
required to overcome the generator's internal losses, including friction <BR=
>
in the bearings and the excitation energy, if applicable. As soon as you <BR=
>
put an electrical load on the generator, it will take additional <BR>
mechanical torque to turn the shaft.<BR>
<BR>
This is easy to demonstrate with most cars. Start the engine and let it <BR>
idle. Then turn on the headlights. You will usually hear the engine load <BR=
>
down slightly as it is called on to produce additional mechanical power <BR>
to turn the alternator.<BR>
<BR>
Phil<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:08:18 -0600
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X-Status: 

A comprehensive treatment of biomass energy potential.

www.puaf.umd.edu/faculty/papers/nelson/carbseq/pdf/2.pdf


Biodiesel from Algae

www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/pdfs/biodiesel_from_algae_ps.pdf

www.climatelegacy.org/uploadedfiles/20_Biodiesel_fromalgae_1.pdf

This unique and innovative project uses the waste CO2 generated by industrial ethanol
production, plus municipal waste, to feed a special type of algae that produce high
levels of oil. The algae produce up to 60% of their weight in triacylglycerols, which
can be easily converted to bio-diesel through transesterifi-cation. These microalgae
are capable of producing 30 times more oil per area of land than traditional oilseed
crops. Three algae ponds will initially be established in Silverton, Pretoria; once
the equipment has been refined and modified for rural use the project will be expanded
for use in the community all over the country. The same technology has already been
successfully implemented in Roswell, New Mexico.

Regards,

Frederick

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:32:56 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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> Biodiesel from Algae

> The same technology has already been
> successfully implemented in Roswell, New Mexico.

Wow. I wonder where that technology came from    ;-)


Also don't forget this company for H2 from algae :

http://www.melisenergy.com 

Jones

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:06:17 EST
Subject: THe Russian's 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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The Russian s teach Trig in the 3 Rd grade and do not look at scientific 
questions from the theory side for the most part. As we do and is why they 
are so far ahead. Because from there experience that situation creates far to 
many restrictive stone wall counter productive roadblocks 

 Ever since My photo appeared on one of their cutting edge scientific Pub's a 
year ago I here from them all the time and pass them on to the Techie's There 
are some smart boys over there.  They just had a non functioning political 
system was three problem.  Plus now very little money so they have to make 
do. With what they have available to them.  Whereas NASA has deep pockets in 
Comparison. They cannot afford to waste a dime as NASA does.  

 Case in point one time on the space station a NASA guy was showing off his 
fancy Pen that NASA spent big Bucks on that could write in space. THe Russian 
made him look like a fool when he said we solved that problem by using a 
Pencil. 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2><B>The Russian s teach Tr=
ig in the 3 Rd grade and do not look at scientific questions from the theory=
 side for the most part. As we do and is why they are so far ahead. Because=20=
from there experience that situation creates far to many restrictive stone w=
all counter productive roadblocks <BR>
<BR>
 Ever since My photo appeared on one of their cutting edge scientific Pub's=20=
a year ago I here from them all the time and pass them on to the Techie's Th=
ere are some smart boys over there.&nbsp; They just had a non functioning po=
litical system was three problem.&nbsp; Plus now very little money so they h=
ave to make do. With what they have available to them.&nbsp; Whereas NASA ha=
s deep pockets in Comparison. They cannot afford to waste a dime as NASA doe=
s.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Case in point one time on the space station a NASA guy was showing off his=20=
fancy Pen that NASA spent big Bucks on that could write in space. THe Russia=
n made him look like a fool when he said we solved that problem by using a P=
encil. </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 09:17:28 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:08:36 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
In-Reply-To: <004701c2df47$0cfbdd20$0a016ea8 cpq>
References: <014e01c2df3c$8c4ec700$b411b83f computer>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Also don't forget this company for H2 from algae :
>
>http://www.melisenergy.com

Celani et al. are working on a similar scheme, with the microorganisms they 
discovered living in heavy water, Ralstonia detusculanense.

There is a problem with many schemes like this, including conventional 
agriculture. When a species is bred or modified for some "artificial" human 
purpose, it tends to become weak, and unable to survive without protection 
and care by humans. It may be more susceptible to disease, or unable to 
breed or broadcast seeds without human intervention. Corn (maize), 
domesticated turkeys and lap dogs are good examples. Wild turkeys are said 
to be wiliest, smartest birds in North America, whereas domesticated 
turkeys are famously stupid and defenseless. This increases the cost of 
agriculture, or bio-energy production. On the other hand, it prevents the 
domesticated species from invading natural habitats.

Some domesticated or feral species are quite hardy, such as wild horses in 
North America.

Bear in mind that any bio-energy scheme can only produce a tiny fraction of 
the energy consumed in industrialized nations. All annual biomass growth in 
North America -- every tree and blade of grass -- could only supply about 
half of our annual energy requirements. Many prominent scientists such as 
Freeman Dyson have promoted biomass. Apparently they did not do the math. 
Perhaps these specialized species can do photosynthesis more efficiently 
than ordinary plants do, but the difference cannot be that large, and we 
cannot cover every square kilometer of land with growing pools.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 09:18:10 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:15:16 EST
Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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      A satellite based lets call it an atomic accelerator instead of a 
proton or scalar unit  could cause an ICBM  to in implode instead of explode  
WHEN THE satellites imaginary detection system  identified it  Then there 
would be no radiation problem. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 09:23:44 2003
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Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:17:54 -0600
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Jones Beene wrote:


>
> > Biodiesel from Algae
>
> > The same technology has already been
> > successfully implemented in Roswell, New Mexico.
>
> Wow. I wonder where that technology came from    ;-)
>
Little Green Men, relish little green algae. :-)
>
> Also don't forget this company for H2 from algae :
>
> http://www.melisenergy.com

Interesting item.

I had a shallow pan for watering the birds and stray cats, you could see the O2
bubbles coming from the blue-green algae growth in it on summer days.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Jones
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 09:32:00 2003
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Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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Jed wrote:
>
> Bear in mind that any bio-energy scheme can only produce a tiny fraction of
> the energy consumed in industrialized nations. All annual biomass growth in
> North America -- every tree and blade of grass -- could only supply about
> half of our annual energy requirements. Many prominent scientists such as
> Freeman Dyson have promoted biomass. Apparently they did not do the math.
> Perhaps these specialized species can do photosynthesis more efficiently
> than ordinary plants do, but the difference cannot be that large, and we
> cannot cover every square kilometer of land with growing pools.

I agree.  The DOE estimate of energy from biomass is about 5 Quad/year as opposed to ~
90 Quad/year US energy demand.
Biomass energy from agricultural wastes should only be used for supporting food
production.

Regards,

Frederick
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 09:54:36 2003
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Subject: OFF TOPIC Photos of old computers
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For nerds only:

http://ftp.arl.army.mil/ftp/historic-computers/

- JR


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 10:08:31 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:02:36 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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From: Jed Rothwell

> Bear in mind that any bio-energy scheme can only produce a tiny fraction of 
> the energy consumed in industrialized nations. All annual biomass growth in 
> North America -- every tree and blade of grass -- could only supply about 
> half of our annual energy requirements.

Yes, but the actual contribution from this particular source could be more significant than "tiny".  Melis has been quoted,  "We thought we would get trace amounts, but we got bulk amounts" ... an hourly average of about three milliliters of hydrogen per liter of culture, and he expects to increase that yield ten-fold...

... but even if he doesn't get any increased yield ...if you run the numbers as it stands now,  that works out to about 2 liters of H2 yearly per gallon of culture during daylight hours. And this is not a surface phenomenon, it is in effect 3D down to several feet of depth. 

If you took a large shallow lake, say the Great Salt Lake in Utah, a lake that has about 5 trillion gallons of water, if that sized lake were optimized for the Melis' Algae, for instance, you could get as much as 10 trillion liters of H2 yearly...not exactly tiny on that scale...Of course it would be less, but that gives a better glimpse of the potential for this algae...

How would the process ramp up to that large of a scale? It's anybody's guess but a lot of financial heavy weights are said to be backing this scheme....

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 10:21:40 2003
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
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On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>   BILL    That is all fine and good if you can afford a server as probably
> Newman can.

I'm talking about free servers like Yahoo, Network54, delphi, etc.  There
are many thousands of separate forums at http:/groups.yahoo.com.  There is
no charge, that's why hundreds of thousands of people are using them.
They are run as email servers and as web forums.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 10:29:59 2003
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On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

> billb eskimo.com writes:
> > .  I myself have "therapist" leanings..

> .    ALL the ones I went either gave up their practices and became nuns,
> monks or became alcoholi

You're talking about ACTUAL therapists?  Perhaps you didn't look at this
website below.   One of the common types of "internet personality" is this
one:

   TYPICAL FLAMER TYPES
   Number 25:  "The Therapist"
   http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame25.html

Many other pictures are listed here:

   http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:26:44 EST
Subject: God Forbid if a Ph.D  skeptic worked with a shade tree inventor 
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In a message dated 2/27/03 5:49:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, yahoo1 ka9q.net 
writes:


> Don't confuse temporary manufacturing limitations with fundamental 
> physical limits. A good education will teach you these differences.
> 
> > I would like to believe if the skeptics with their education would 
> > only loosen up a little they might or could give constuctive input  
> > to the shade tree inventor that are working hard to defeat the 
> > energy crises. admitting that a magnet contains all the ingredients 
> > for work, and is waiting to be tapped would be a start. 
>  REPLY  Skeptics With a Tech  EDU. Working with the shade tree inventor 
> that would make to much common sense.   You should be shot for saying that. 
>  We cannot have that happening what would the world come to??     God 
> forbid that might solve a problem then what would the skeptic have to talk 
> about ,  Basically nothing. That I can see  

     You need to understand SIR. Skeptics do zero except run their mouth. 
About what some book says.  Now 
> you want them to actually say something that makes sense like constructive 
> input.  Your a Kook or a con man that is all there is to it.    

    Also What would happen to their Ego's if they had to admit they possibly 
do not know it all.  That is just 
> unthinkable         I "M sorry that just cannot possibly work.    DO  the  
> arrogant MORONS among you SEE THE PROBLEM NOW ??????
> It would do the world a very serious disservice to promise a solution to 
> the energy crisis that simply does not and cannot possibly work. 
> Fortunately, the powers that be do understand that fundamental physical 
> laws limit what we can do. But with the sorry state of science education 
> in the country, I wonder how much longer our policy-making institutions 
> can hold out against the onslaught of irrationality so pervasive in the 
> "free energy" universe.
> 
> > Magnatism is as natural as sun or wind, it is a force that can drive 
> > a magnetor or ferrous metal, we can not feel it like the wind but 
> > its quanity is much larger. It completly surrounds the earth. It is 
> > another source of energy supplied by nature. Problem is, man has not 
> > learned how to tap it yet, as we have the water, sun, wind, and oil.
> 
> Sorry, magnetism is simply a force of nature; it is not a source of 
> energy. Study some basic physics and you'll finally understand that 
> while it can and is used as a *tool* in the conversion of energy (e.g., 
> in motors and generators) it is not, in and of itself, a "source" of 
> energy.
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/27/0=
3 5:49:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, yahoo1 ka9q.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Don't confuse temporary manufac=
turing limitations with fundamental <BR>
physical limits. A good education will teach you these differences.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; I would like to believe if the skeptics with their education would <BR>
&gt; only loosen up a little they might or could give constuctive input&nbsp=
; <BR>
&gt; to the shade tree inventor that are working hard to defeat the <BR>
&gt; energy crises. admitting that a magnet contains all the ingredients <BR=
>
&gt; for work, and is waiting to be tapped would be a start. <BR>
 <B>REPLY&nbsp; Skeptics With a Tech&nbsp; EDU. Working with the shade tree=20=
inventor that would make to much common sense.&nbsp;&nbsp; You should be sho=
t for saying that.&nbsp; We cannot have that happening what would the world=20=
come to??&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; God forbid that might solve a problem then=
 what would the skeptic have to talk about ,&nbsp; Basically nothing. That I=
 can see&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>=20=
You need to understand SIR. Skeptics do zero except run their mouth. About w=
hat some book says.&nbsp; Now </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKG=
ROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0=
"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>you want them to actually say something that makes sense=
 like constructive input.&nbsp; Your a Kook or a con man that is all there i=
s to it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Also W=
hat would happen to their Ego's if they had to admit they possibly do not kn=
ow it all.&nbsp; That is just </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKG=
ROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0=
"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>unthinkable&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; I "M sorry that just cannot possibly work.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DO&nbsp; th=
e&nbsp; arrogant MORONS among you SEE THE PROBLEM NOW ??????</B><BR>
It would do the world a very serious disservice to promise a solution to <BR=
>
the energy crisis that simply does not and cannot possibly work. <BR>
Fortunately, the powers that be do understand that fundamental physical <BR>
laws limit what we can do. But with the sorry state of science education <BR=
>
in the country, I wonder how much longer our policy-making institutions <BR>
can hold out against the onslaught of irrationality so pervasive in the <BR>
"free energy" universe.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; Magnatism is as natural as sun or wind, it is a force that can drive <B=
R>
&gt; a magnetor or ferrous metal, we can not feel it like the wind but <BR>
&gt; its quanity is much larger. It completly surrounds the earth. It is <BR=
>
&gt; another source of energy supplied by nature. Problem is, man has not <B=
R>
&gt; learned how to tap it yet, as we have the water, sun, wind, and oil.<BR=
>
<BR>
Sorry, magnetism is simply a force of nature; it is not a source of <BR>
energy. Study some basic physics and you'll finally understand that <BR>
while it can and is used as a *tool* in the conversion of energy (e.g., <BR>
in motors and generators) it is not, in and of itself, a "source" of energy.=
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_18c.167552c0.2b9103e4_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 10:42:45 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
In-Reply-To: <001f01c2df53$9385e320$0a016ea8 cpq>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>... but even if he doesn't get any increased yield ...if you run the 
>numbers as it stands now,  that works out to about 2 liters of H2 yearly 
>per gallon of culture during daylight hours. And this is not a surface 
>phenomenon, it is in effect 3D down to several feet of depth.

All plant growth is three dimensional in that sense. A tree or a field of 
corn captures solar energy in multi-layer arrays of leaves. But, as I said, 
every tree and plant in North America would not be enough to supply our 
energy needs. Photosynthesis is roughly 0.1% efficient, much less efficient 
than things like solar water heating or photovoltaics. Also, in the U.S. 
and Canada, plants do not grow in winter. I asked various experts how 
effective photosynthesis might be on board a deep space manned mission. 
They do not know, but with specially positioned lights and ideal plant 
types it might be 1% or slightly better. This is still way below photovoltaics.

Wind or hydroelectricity is effective because the energy is concentrated in 
one place, rather than being distributed everywhere more-or-less evenly, 
and because moving air and water is available day and night, winter or 
summer. Water power (hydroelectricity) is probably tapped out in the U.S. 
It supplies ~5.4% of electricity. I doubt that biomass could ever supply 
this much.


>If you took a large shallow lake, say the Great Salt Lake in Utah, a lake 
>that has about 5 trillion gallons of water, if that sized lake were 
>optimized for the Melis' Algae, for instance, you could get as much as 10 
>trillion liters of H2 yearly...not exactly tiny on that scale...

BAD idea!!! The last thing you want is to let this thing grow wild on the 
scale of a lake. If it is capable of taking over a body of water on that 
scale, in competition with other species, the results would be disastrous. 
That would be like trying to reduce erosion in railroad embankments by 
planting a fast-growing non-native species of vine. The railroads did that 
around 1900, and the results -- so far -- is approximately 7 million acres 
of land destroyed by kudzu (Pueraria lobata).

Kudzu was brought from Japan, where it also takes over a lot of land, even 
though it has natural enemies. In return, people have recently, 
inadvertently wiped out many Japanese native fresh water fish with U.S. 
bass and bluegill, and they have spread U.S. ragweed all over Japan. 
Recently a Chinese fish, the northern snakehead, almost got loose in 
Maryland. It would have caused havoc in the food chain and probably would 
have destroyed dozens of species.

Invasive species introduced by humans (*deliberately* in some cases!) are 
one of the most potent threats to the environment and ecosystem.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 10:52:31 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: New Genesis pics
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm

Look particularly at the insides of the box, like panel b, where a =
hydride tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few =
minutes worth of H2 at household usage rates. How many other =
inconsistencies can you find?

This is looking like one of the more carefully planned and orchestrated =
scams in the long history of free energy scams...or else...?

Jones
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
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<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm">http://www.gen=
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Look particularly at the insides of the box,&nbsp;like&nbsp;panel =
b, where=20
a hydride tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few =
minutes=20
worth of H2 at household usage rates. How many other inconsistencies can =
you=20
find?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is looking like one of the more carefully planned and =
orchestrated=20
scams in the long history of free energy scams...or else...?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 11:14:31 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030228114317.00b04630 pop.mindspring.com>
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 <014e01c2df3c$8c4ec700$b411b83f computer>
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I wrote:

>Bear in mind that any bio-energy scheme can only produce a tiny fraction 
>of the energy consumed in industrialized nations. All annual biomass 
>growth in North America . . .

It is still a good idea though. It probably fits some applications and 
geographic areas well. Hydroelectricity and geothermal power are also quite 
limited in capacity, but they are worth the investment. Wind power with 
present technology and without hydrogen production is limited.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 11:33:23 2003
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An item on CNN web page.

Larry King Live (9 p.m. ET): Psychic medium John Edward says he can communicate with
the dead. He joins Larry for the hour and takes your calls.

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 12:54:04 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics
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Jones Beene wrote:

>http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm
>
>Look particularly at the insides of the box, like panel b, where a hydride 
>tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few minutes worth 
>of H2 at household usage rates. How many other inconsistencies can you find?

I don't mean to defend these people, but that tank might make sense. 
Perhaps it is a short term buffer, like a capacitor rather than a battery. 
I know nothing about this gadget, but based on quick read of the web page I 
suppose it is another "Meyer" claim -- right? They fracture water with less 
energy than you get when you recombine it? That part is a violation of C of 
E, but once you cake-walk past that minor detail, the small reserve tank 
might be reasonable. The Meyer process takes a few moments to kick in and 
start producing gas, I gather. So this would work a little like my 
emergency gasoline-powered generator. It sometimes lags a few seconds after 
we turn on a microwave oven. You can hear it kick into higher revs.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 13:13:53 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:08:00 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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Fred,
 
> Biodiesel from Algae
> 
> www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/pdfs/biodiesel_from_algae_ps.pdf
> 
> www.climatelegacy.org/uploadedfiles/20_Biodiesel_fromalgae_1.pdf


Add this to your biodiesel list:  

Smithfield Foods Inc. (NYSE:SFD - News), the nation's largest pork producer, said on Friday it will build a $20 million facility in Utah that will use waste from 500,000 hogs to make biodiesel, a renewable vehicle fuel.

And that's no Spam...but if you are a vegan, check out
http://www.greasecar.com/
http://www.biodiesel.org/

....and that's no BS...

Jones


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Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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Jones wrote:
>
> Add this to your biodiesel list:
>
> Smithfield Foods Inc. (NYSE:SFD - News), the nation's largest pork producer, said on
Friday it will build a $20 million facility in Utah that will use waste from 500,000
hogs to make biodiesel, a renewable vehicle fuel.
>
> And that's no Spam...but if you are a vegan, check out
> http://www.greasecar.com/
> http://www.biodiesel.org/

Judging from the folks you see waddling around with umpteen pounds of excess lard,
this is a better option.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick
>
> ....and that's no BS...
>
> Jones
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 14:07:27 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:04:15 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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References: <014e01c2df3c$8c4ec700$b411b83f computer> <001101c2df6d$79e9f400$0a016ea8@cpq> <006d01c2df6a$239fd540$3601bf3f@computer>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Jones wrote:
>  
>
>>Add this to your biodiesel list:
>>
>>Smithfield Foods Inc. (NYSE:SFD - News), the nation's largest pork producer, said on
>>    
>>
>Friday it will build a $20 million facility in Utah that will use waste from 500,000
>hogs to make biodiesel, a renewable vehicle fuel.
>  
>
>>And that's no Spam...but if you are a vegan, check out
>>http://www.greasecar.com/
>>http://www.biodiesel.org/
>>    
>>
>
>Judging from the folks you see waddling around with umpteen pounds of excess lard,
>this is a better option.  :-)
>

Well, the story is flawed.  Smithfield is not the largest pork producer. 
 That esteemed title belongs to the United States Congress.

Have a great weekend!  I'm off to the Springsteen concert.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 14:10:43 2003
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Photos of old computers
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I'm there...

--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
> For nerds only:
> 
> http://ftp.arl.army.mil/ftp/historic-computers/
> 
> - JR
> 
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: No Thanks
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:33:07 -0500
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Ring ring....

"Hello Larry? Jesus here. Listen Larry, I thought I'd just call earth
and give a heads up to the world leaders down there. I thought
Dad made himself pretty clear to Moses, but what with all the
lawyers around ( what was He thinking??!!! ) I think I need
to clarify article 5 of His 10 commandments."

"And which one was that, caller?"

"Sigh... 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', Larry. It's an important one.
I know, He should have made it number one, but He was sure
He created you to have a long enough attention span to
get past article 2"

"Sorry caller, we need to break for a word from our sponsors"

jingle...Conquer the planet in our new Ford Dominator...jingle

"OK, we're back with Jesus from Heaven"

"Right Larry. Now listen, I'm really getting fed up with this
shit. What part of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' don't you understand?
Look closely at the contract, I can assure you
there are no caveats or riders to that article. What, I've
got to come down to earth again, put George and Saddam
in a double headlock, and explain My position on saturation bombing
and biological weapons? What's wrong with you people, anyway?
'Cause let me tell you, there's been some major rethinking
upstairs about this whole business of talking monkeys."

"Thanks Jesus! Our next caller..."

--sound of nuclear explosion--

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:27 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: No Thanks


An item on CNN web page.

Larry King Live (9 p.m. ET): Psychic medium John Edward says he can
communicate with
the dead. He joins Larry for the hour and takes your calls.

Regards,

Frederick


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: takyons and neutrinos     look at the sky
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	Dear Vortex and Jack,

	How does one detect "takyons"?
	What are they defined as?

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>          Go outside and look at the sky at night what do you see if the stars 
> are visible  Stars Correct? Are they Bright? yes, Then they must be emitting 
> power Correct.?   Where is the power going MORON    TOM      GEEEEE do you 
> think it may be coming this way ?????  
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 14:22:52 2003
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, 28 Feb 03
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:17:12 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 28 Feb 03   Washington, DC

1. NASA: THE SHUTTLE AND THE HUBBLE-REPAIR MYTH.  For the first
time, the need for a human presence in space is being questioned
openly on Capitol Hill.  But at a House Science Committee hearing
yesterday, Sean O'Keefe invoked the Hubble repairs as an example
of man doing what robot could not.  It's a NASA myth; Hubble was
designed to be serviced.  It was supposed to be like calling AAA
for a jump start; NASA promised a shuttle launch every week.  But
the repair missions cost more than Hubble, and no other science
satellite has ever been repaired in orbit.  Moreover, Hubble had
to conform to a NASA decree that everything that went into space
had to be launched with the shuttle.  This confined Hubble to a
far from optimum low-Earth orbit that took it in and out of the
Earth's shadow and exposed it to the rain of space garbage from
past missions.  Moreover, Hubble's dimensions had to conform to
the shuttle's cargo bay, and its launch was delayed for three
years by the Challenger accident.  Ironically, the Challenger
accident finally forced NASA to drop its shuttle-only launch
policy.  Hubble has gone on to achieve greatness, not because of
the shuttle and the man-in-space program, but in spite of it. 

2. MISSILE DEFENSE: PENTAGON SEEKS WAIVER FROM REQUIRED TESTING. 
In April 2000, the APS Council stated: "The United States should
not make a deployment decision relative to the planned National
Missile Defense system unless that system is shown   through
analysis and intercept tests   to be effective against the types
of offensive countermeasures that an attacker could reasonably be
expected to deploy with its long-range missiles."  In fact, a law
designed to prevent deployment of weapon systems that don't work
was passed in 1983 after Ronald Reagan announced his Strategic  
Defense Initiative.  Now the Bush administration is proposing to
exempt the Pentagon's controversial missile defense from testing.
The request is in the 2004 budget.  I called my friend Puff
Panegyric at the Missile Defense Agency.  "You've got to admit
the law makes sense," I said.  "Maybe it did in 1983," Puff
sneered, "but North Korea has made the world a more dangerous
place.  We don't have the luxury of waiting until things work. 
There are leaders of some countries who would like nothing better
than to start a war."  "I see your point Puff."

3. CURVE BALL: DEATH OF ORIOLES PITCHER LINKED TO EPHEDRA.  The
real culprit, however, was the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health
Education Act, which exempts "natural" supplements from proof of
safety or efficacy(WN 17 Nov 00).  Under the DSHEA, supplements
have become a $17B industry.  Ephedra, or ma huang, which mimics
adrenaline, is used in weight loss aids.  But despite  thousands
of reports of adverse reactions, the FDA has struggled for years
without success to get the substance banned (WN 7 Sep 01).

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: <aki ix.netcom.com>
To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to:
<leave-whatsnew-27231J lists.apsmsgs.org>
To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: <join-whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 14:42:30 2003
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Photos of old computers
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Charles Ford wrote:

>I'm there...

You mean you are in one of the photos? Which one?

The site author is looking for the names of the people in the pictures, you 
know.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 15:06:47 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:04:11 EST
Subject: Jed and his page count
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Over <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.cnt">3623</A> have 
read my page.
I received perhaps 3 comments.
I don't know if page count is a sign of impact.

I does not seem to be in my case.

Frank Z 

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Frank Z wrote:

>Over <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.cnt">3623</A> have
>read my page.

Is this the visitor count? It may be that many visitors come for only a few 
seconds, and leave without looking carefully. The Earthlink Urchin utility 
indicates that many visitors to LENR-CANR org spend little time there.


>I received perhaps 3 comments.
>I don't know if page count is a sign of impact.

I do not know if comments are a sign of impact, either. People have made 
few comments to me, even in weeks when 1 or 2 thousand have visited. Still, 
I cannot imagine that people have downloaded 36,500 papers unless many of 
those people actually read a paper, came back for more, and read another. 
On average, people download two papers per visit, and I am sure many 
download none, so this average means that some people are visiting and 
downloading 10 or 20.

Most people still have dial-up connections, which make downloading papers 
is a time-consuming nuisance. It is not something you would do on a whim, 
for no purpose. Glancing at a web page for a minute or two *is* something 
you do on a whim.

Perhaps all these papers circulating are having no effect anywhere, but I 
find that hard to believe. Words are the one irresistible force in human 
affairs. They have more power to overthrow empires or remake the face of 
the earth than any government, tyrant, mogul, army, or the wealthiest 
businessman on earth (Bill Gates, as it happens). I hope that sooner or 
later with all these papers floating around, someone with money somewhere 
will take notice, and allow the research to flourish. Either that, or try 
to make it classified!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 17:22:46 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1aa.11691e12.2b914f78 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:49:12 EST
Subject: Re: Moderator's comments: "whirlpower", Newman/Soule, etc.
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    My computer skills and writing skills are barley adequate. PLus I'm not a 
SCI> type  I had to learn some computer skills because i  was handed a task 
of  creating  a CO.  which I have not done to bad at. To go with the most 
advanced Tech. situations that I have found on this planet.

 Next week as last year I will be at the SAE  World Conference At COBO in 
Detroit  with press passes. Now that we are on the verge of launching a CO. 
And  I have been thru one of the shows I can probably establish many contacts 
there. After that show I went to NYC for several days to a venture Capital 
situation in Apr. And then A 3 week west coasts trip in June.

The Prime DEV died in DEC. But That had no Effect Because of the Back up 
people.  Because his knowledge was transferred plus they have many situations 
also. Now we have several Prime involvement situations lined up, that are 
maturing because negotiations take time. .  .  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 17:25:50 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <b8.3ab96a6d.2b916528 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:21:44 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Liquid Light
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In a message dated 2/28/03 7:12:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com 
writes:


> This is a weird article.  It may have something to do with what Crazy 
> Casey has been talking about.  Maybe you guys can look at the article 
> and tell what you think.
> 
> http://www.greaterthings.com/News/FreeEnergy/Directory/LeBreton/Liquid
> Light/index.html
> 
>          I all ready know the name LeBreton  Yes he is a little weird.  But 
> appears somewhat Smart. He said I was Playing 4D mind games with him. as 
> someone in Europe said also.   I had to  BUT he HAS helped me extensively 
> HE Lives on a ranch In, NM    He said he was a Reagan Star War's Adviser. 
> But that is Questionable.    

   He was the reason The Russians contacted me  and the Amish  Greater things 
I know all of them.  THey are 
> Control types. Like RAY WINN   But they cannot compete. I would drop the 
> control game if I could not Compete. THey can learn the hard. THose types 
> generally have to    

      Plus Knows Ray Winn The Billionaire in CALIF. To what extent I do not 
Know      RAY  has one of out Demo Tapes. > But wanted to control. I only 
> talked to his Go between A- LA record Producer Bruce Holmes  In, LA and 
> once In, NJ   In early 2001   After the Amish had been here and The Gary 
> vesperman group  He is an EE and a PHY. and Ph.D. ME came with him  They 
> were looking for something they basically steal.

   DAN are going to be at the SAE at COBO  You can have FREE Breakfast or 
lunch or afternoon snacks   in the Media > Room With me  They will not let you 
> in as far as I know  unless your media.  If you see a guy wearing a  black 
> or brown leather Embroidered  cap  backwards it is me  DENSO lays out a 
> nice spread  Plus I will be pulling a DENSO  pull behind Bag . I raised so 
> much hell last year making fools out many people. 

      They would not give me passes to the fuel cell conference in Apr.  I 
was going to trash that one. I keep pounding them > with Delphi's Chief 
> Scientists Mail to me. They did not like that Because he was one of them.  
> THE SAE Corp. types  approached me 3 times and asked to please stop making 
> them look so bad. But I was Media. They do not screw with Media and is why 
> they said please.  

>   BUT they approved passes this year. So they are fair game again I know 
> just another one of my Delusions. Walk around with me for a while and I 
> will show you an allusion not a delusion  
  The Wards Automotive Guys Copped a real attitude  and complained Those 
clowns were dressed like refuges. The ENG. Editor of Road and Track is a 
Moron  
 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/28/0=
3 7:12:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, berndtdw c-b.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This is a weird article.&nbsp;=20=
It may have something to do with what Crazy <BR>
Casey has been talking about.&nbsp; Maybe you guys can look at the article <=
BR>
and tell what you think.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/FreeEnergy/Directory/LeBreton/Liquid<BR>
Light/index.html<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I all ready know the nam=
e LeBreton&nbsp; Yes he is a little weird.&nbsp; But appears somewhat Smart.=
 He said I was Playing 4D mind games with him. as someone in Europe said als=
o.&nbsp;&nbsp; I had to&nbsp; BUT he HAS helped me extensively HE Lives on a=
 ranch In, NM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He said he was a Reagan Star War's Adviser.=20=
But that is Questionable.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=20=
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>He was the r=
eason The Russians contacted me&nbsp; and the Amish&nbsp; Greater things I k=
now all of them.&nbsp; THey are </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Control types. Like RAY WINN&nbsp;&nbsp; But they cannot=
 compete. I would drop the control game if I could not Compete. THey can lea=
rn the hard. THose types generally have to&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Plus Knows Ray Winn The Billionaire in CALIF. To what extent I do not Kno=
w&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RAY&nbsp; has one of out Demo Tapes. <BLOCKQ=
UOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">But wanted to control. I only talked t=
o his Go between A- LA record Producer Bruce Holmes&nbsp; In, LA and once In=
, NJ&nbsp;&nbsp; In early 2001&nbsp;&nbsp; After the Amish had been here and=
 The Gary vesperman group&nbsp; He is an EE and a PHY. and Ph.D. ME came wit=
h him&nbsp; They were looking for something they basically steal.</FONT><FON=
T  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; DAN are going t=
o be at the SAE at COBO&nbsp; You can have FREE Breakfast or lunch or aftern=
oon snacks&nbsp;&nbsp; in the Media <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:=20=
5px">Room With me&nbsp; They will not let you in as far as I know&nbsp; unle=
ss your media.&nbsp; If you see a guy wearing a&nbsp; black or brown leather=
 Embroidered&nbsp; cap&nbsp; backwards it is me&nbsp; DENSO lays out a nice=20=
spread&nbsp; Plus I will be pulling a DENSO&nbsp; pull behind Bag . I raised=
 so much hell last year making fools out many people. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; They would not give me passes to the fuel cell conference in Apr.&nbsp; I=
 was going to trash that one. I keep pounding them <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE s=
tyle=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;=
 PADDING-LEFT: 5px">with Delphi's Chief Scientists Mail to me. They did not=20=
like that Because he was one of them.&nbsp; THE SAE Corp. types&nbsp; approa=
ched me 3 times and asked to please stop making them look so bad. But I was=20=
Media. They do not screw with Media and is why they said please.&nbsp; </FON=
T><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; BUT they approved passes this year. So they are fair=
 game again I know just another one of my Delusions. Walk around with me for=
 a while and I will show you an allusion not a delusion&nbsp; </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; The Wards Automotive Guys Copped a real attitude&nbsp; and complained=
 Those clowns were dressed like refuges. The ENG. Editor of Road and Track i=
s a Moron&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 17:49:31 2003
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From: stevek <stevek dlsi.net>
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics
In-Reply-To: <000b01c2df59$75c4a460$0a016ea8 cpq>
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could be "vaporware"...

common usage:  "computer products that have been in development,  but not 
working yet (hence nothing but vapors to deliver), but are being promoted"


At 10:44 AM 2/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:
><http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm>http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm
>
>Look particularly at the insides of the box, like panel b, where a hydride 
>tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few minutes worth 
>of H2 at household usage rates. How many other inconsistencies can you find?
>
>This is looking like one of the more carefully planned and orchestrated 
>scams in the long history of free energy scams...or else...?
>
>Jones

Thanks,

Steve 
--=====================_5415687==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
could be &quot;vaporware&quot;...<br><br>
common usage:&nbsp; &quot;computer products that have been in
development,&nbsp; but not working yet (hence nothing but vapors to
deliver), but are being promoted&quot;<br><br>
<br>
At 10:44 AM 2/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><a href="http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm">http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm</a><br>
&nbsp;<br>
Look particularly at the insides of the box, like panel b, where a
hydride tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few
minutes worth of H2 at household usage rates. How many other
inconsistencies can you find?<br>
&nbsp;<br>
This is looking like one of the more carefully planned and orchestrated
scams in the long history of free energy scams...or else...?<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Jones</blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Thanks,<br><br>
Steve</body>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 18:05:40 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:01:58 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Re: 3 Phase Miracle! and a invatation while I...
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In a message dated 2/28/03 1:09:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:


> No how you do this is you put a meter between the input and the box..
> Then you take another meter between the box and the machines.. No
> theoretical no guessing.. No bull crap.. You use a watt meter.. Period..
> This shows input and output.. Or total draw.. Period..just because a
> machine says 9amps does not mean it will be using 9 amps.. It just means
> it has a 9amp capacity.. This is why you take the total amps on
> equipment and make sure it does not max the fuse.. This is why you cant
> put a 15amp fuse in the socket like they asked you.
> 
      REPLY   Thanks And a good description PLUS  you have a surge at start 
and you have to allow for that but the 30 amp breaker handles it     9 amps 
is total draw with all operational but less if a piece of equipment is turned 
off. 
 
Again where does> 
> this 3700watts come from?? With only 400watts inputted?? Unless you have
> funky math. So lets see the math you used to calculate outside of the bs
> you just posted..  
> 
>    REPLY   WE are using the now wasted frequency's and they are conducting 
the work.  Instead of being the power loss factor as they are now   If the 
air com, Drill Press and Arch welder  do not complain and function that is 
all that matters.  To catch that one you have to reverse your thinking. Until 
then I do not see it happening   

None of the new math is given out Just demos are provided The math is as 
Cokes process has been for 120 Years private. Because as their situation the 
bases for the CO.   The math is something science will have to figure out for 
themselves if they want to know.   Science does not like that. 

Sorry  I'm not in the EDU. Bus. Is what I tell them  NO free lunches here.  
LIKE Coke you just keep Parent Pending You never Patent  PLUS Trademarks  RCA 
has the best so we pimped theirs and improved it. Marconi was good at 
business  after he pimped Tesla for the inventions that became our modern 
communications 

   SCIENCE has a tough road to hoe because they will have to dump there 
theories.  That is their world. They are lost without it  And a  Giant Catch 
22 for them.   It is not my problem         


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/28/0=
3 1:09:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, pramirez my-suzuki.homelinux.com writes:=
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">No how you do this is you put a=
 meter between the input and the box..<BR>
Then you take another meter between the box and the machines.. No<BR>
theoretical no guessing.. No bull crap.. You use a watt meter.. Period..<BR>
This shows input and output.. Or total draw.. Period..just because a<BR>
machine says 9amps does not mean it will be using 9 amps.. It just means<BR>
it has a 9amp capacity.. This is why you take the total amps on<BR>
equipment and make sure it does not max the fuse.. This is why you cant<BR>
put a 15amp fuse in the socket like they asked you.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks And a good descri=
ption PLUS&nbsp; you have a surge at start and you have to allow for that bu=
t the 30 amp breaker handles it&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9 amps is total draw with all operational but=20=
less if a piece of equipment is turned off. <BR>
 </B><BR>
Again where does<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px so=
lid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
this 3700watts come from?? With only 400watts inputted?? Unless you have<BR>
funky math. So lets see the math you used to calculate outside of the bs<BR>
you just posted..&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; WE are using the now wasted f=
requency's and they are conducting the work.&nbsp; Instead of being the powe=
r loss factor as they are now&nbsp;&nbsp; If the air com, Drill Press and Ar=
ch welder&nbsp; do not complain and function that is all that matters.&nbsp;=
 To catch that one you have to reverse your thinking. Until then I do not se=
e it happening&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
None of the new math is given out Just demos are provided The math is as Cok=
es process has been for 120 Years private. Because as their situation the ba=
ses for the CO.&nbsp;&nbsp; The math is something science will have to figur=
e out for themselves if they want to know.&nbsp;&nbsp; Science does not like=
 that. <BR>
<BR>
Sorry&nbsp; I'm not in the EDU. Bus. Is what I tell them&nbsp; NO free lunch=
es here.&nbsp; LIKE Coke you just keep Parent Pending You never Patent&nbsp;=
 PLUS Trademarks&nbsp; RCA has the best so we pimped theirs and improved it.=
 Marconi was good at business&nbsp; after he pimped Tesla for the inventions=
 that became our modern communications <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; SCIENCE has a tough road to hoe because they will have to dump=20=
there theories.&nbsp; That is their world. They are lost without it&nbsp; An=
d a&nbsp; Giant Catch 22 for them.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is not my problem&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 19:00:44 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:58:49 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle! and a invatation while I'm at the SAE Con.
 At COBO
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>
>The guys that were interested in learning operational aspects of 
>situations are now some of my best friends. I will be taking many of 
>them to breakfast and lunch in the Media room at the SAE  World 
>Conference Next week at COBO in Detroit.

Are you talking about the weekend of March 8-9th?

>
>AS I did last year Because they cannot get in without press passes. 
>Plus it is FREE because Denso pays for the catering. If you want I 
>will take any of you to. Just let me know if your going to be there. 
>for the four days. It does not cost me anything.   SO I do not care

I may be able to get one of my associates to drive me out to Flint. 
We plan to show up with a watt meter a three phase waterheater and a 
five gallon pail. I assume that you are interested.
--============_-1165634958==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: 3 Phase Miracle! and a invatation while I'm at
the</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><b><br>
The guys that were interested in learning operational aspects of
situations are now some of my best friends. I will be taking many of
them to breakfast and lunch in the Media room at the SAE&nbsp; World
Conference Next week at COBO in Detroit.</b></font></blockquote>
<div><br>
Are you talking about the weekend of March 8-9th?<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><b><br>
AS I did last year Because they cannot get in without press passes.&nbsp;
Plus it is FREE because Denso pays for the catering. If you want I
will take any of you to. Just let me know if your going to be there.
for the four days. It does not cost me anything.&nbsp;&nbsp; SO I do
not care</b></font></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I may be able to get one of my associates to drive me out to
Flint. We plan to show up with a watt meter a three phase waterheater
and a five gallon pail. I assume that you are interested.</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1165634958==_ma============--

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <55.39f18516.2b9180a3 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:18:59 EST
Subject: Eric Kreig makes a fool out of himself 
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        jgiglio nova.umuc.edu, borderschess@hotmail.com, mike@ucsofa.com
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   if something new came up and we found out we were wrong, our egos 
would suffer a little bit - but then we would use our superior 
intelligence, learn how the thing really works and then once again 
have an ego problem.


MORON     You just said you have an EGO    Problem   And your leaving me no 
Choice Here         Infinite energy built an obsolete version 2 years ago  
with Wayne's instructions and still are totally clueless how it functions.  
I"M still waiting for an explanation GENE MALLOVE      You have to know how 
to create new math because that is all you have 

YOUR AN EE remember You explain it and I will give you $ 10,000  99%  i will  
see hell freeze over before that happens. Your a cube boy EE  World class 
physicist's  have walk away without a clue     Correct Gary Vesperman?  I 
have you on tape when you were here Gary   Along with The Physicist and The 
Ph.D. M.E   ERIC  Kreig  Give me a break  with that Giant EGO. Please 

 You just made an arrogant fool out of your self as usual  YOU will never 
learn to  keep your mouth shut  will you?  Even Phil Karn would not have made 
the blunder you just did. Actually I would not be where I am now if it was 
not for all the help ERIC has provide me. because of his postings. And I owe 
him for that.   But I'm going to nail him if he spouts off      

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; if something=
 new came up and we found out we were wrong, our egos <BR>
would suffer a little bit - but then we would use our superior <BR>
intelligence, learn how the thing really works and then once again <BR>
have an ego problem.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B>MORON&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You just said you have an EGO&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; Problem&nbsp;&nbsp; And your leaving me no Choice Here&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Infinite energy built an obsolete version 2=20=
years ago&nbsp; with Wayne's instructions and still are totally clueless how=
 it functions.&nbsp; I"M still waiting for an explanation GENE MALLOVE&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You have to know how to create new math because tha=
t is all you have <BR>
<BR>
YOUR AN EE remember You explain it and I will give you $ 10,000&nbsp; 99%&nb=
sp; i will&nbsp; see hell freeze over before that happens. Your a cube boy E=
E&nbsp; World class physicist's&nbsp; have walk away without a clue&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Correct Gary Vesperman?&nbsp; I have you on tape when you we=
re here Gary&nbsp;&nbsp; Along with The Physicist and The Ph.D. M.E&nbsp;&nb=
sp; ERIC&nbsp; Kreig&nbsp; Give me a break&nbsp; with that Giant EGO. Please=
 <BR>
<BR>
 You just made an arrogant fool out of your self as usual&nbsp; YOU will nev=
er learn to&nbsp; keep your mouth shut&nbsp; will you?&nbsp; Even Phil Karn=20=
would not have made the blunder you just did. Actually I would not be where=20=
I am now if it was not for all the help ERIC has provide me. because of his=20=
postings. And I owe him for that.&nbsp;&nbsp; But I'm going to nail him if h=
e spouts off&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:00:43 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle! and a invatation while I'm at the SAE Con. At COBO
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In a message dated 2/28/03 10:00:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> 
> >> The guys that were interested in learning operational aspects of 
>> situations are now some of my best friends. I will be taking many of them 
>> to breakfast and lunch in the Media room at the SAE  World Conference Next 
>> week at COBO in Detroit.
> 
> Are you talking about the weekend of March 8-9th?   3 RD  thru  6 TH 
> 
> >> 
>> AS I did last year Because they cannot get in without press passes.  Plus 
>> it is FREE because Denso pays for the catering. If you want I will take 
>> any of you to. Just let me know if your going to be there. for the four 
>> days. It does not cost me anything.   SO I do not care
>  
> I may be able to get one of my associates to drive me out to Flint. We plan 
> to show up with a watt meter a three phase waterheater and a five gallon 
> pail. I assume that you are interested.

       WATT meter is all you need I guess. ASK the tech.   Please do not 
waste your time bringing a water heater and a pail. But do what you want. You 
will not be happy unless you do   You can play with you water heater if you 
wish  WE can get a motor for it to operate and create a  load for.  it is how 
it is done in the real world 

 I think that is a two that could operate 6 HP. WE are going to build the 
gravity drive  Not the phase converter    I have to get back the unit we sold 
to the guy in SAGINAW.  because the guy just sold the boring mill  he was 
operating with it     Lets say it functions as advertised  and proves the 
first new theory in a century. 

 WHAT or is there a next step your  considering  ????  Because I all ready 
know it is as advertised  But SCI types think there has to be measuring 
errors.  Please indicate that in a  Mail. If there is one. If not state that 
also. You did see the one major proposal didn't you. "??? 

 Plus we have other situations on that level also.  Unless your a world level 
player why are going to drive all that way?  It makes no difference to me  I 
mean Bruce Meland The Editor of E times drove from Kentucky  when Toyota had 
flew him there then drove back. But he was an editor of a Pub.    

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 2/28/0=
3 10:00:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>The guys that were intereste=
d in learning operational aspects of situations are now some of my best frie=
nds. I will be taking many of them to breakfast and lunch in the Media room=20=
at the SAE&nbsp; World Conference Next week at COBO in Detroit.</FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Are you talking about the weekend of March 8-9th?&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 RD&nbsp; thr=
u&nbsp; 6 TH <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><BR>
AS I did last year Because they cannot get in without press passes.&nbsp; Pl=
us it is FREE because Denso pays for the catering. If you want I will take a=
ny of you to. Just let me know if your going to be there. for the four days.=
 It does not cost me anything.&nbsp;&nbsp; SO I do not care</FONT><FONT  COL=
OR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>
I may be able to get one of my associates to drive me out to Flint. We plan=20=
to show up with a watt meter a three phase waterheater and a five gallon pai=
l. I assume that you are interested.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; <B>WATT meter is all you need I guess. ASK the tech.&nbsp;&nbsp; Pl=
ease do not waste your time bringing a water heater and a pail. But do what=20=
you want. You will not be happy unless you do&nbsp;&nbsp; You can play with=20=
you water heater if you wish&nbsp; WE can get a motor for it to operate and=20=
create a&nbsp; load for.&nbsp; it is how it is done in the real world <BR>
<BR>
 I think that is a two that could operate 6 HP. WE are going to build the gr=
avity drive&nbsp; Not the phase converter&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have to get ba=
ck the unit we sold to the guy in SAGINAW.&nbsp; because the guy just sold t=
he boring mill&nbsp; he was operating with it&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lets s=
ay it functions as advertised&nbsp; and proves the first new theory in a cen=
tury. <BR>
<BR>
 WHAT or is there a next step your&nbsp; considering&nbsp; ????&nbsp; Becaus=
e I all ready know it is as advertised&nbsp; But SCI types think there has t=
o be measuring errors.&nbsp; Please indicate that in a&nbsp; Mail. If there=20=
is one. If not state that also. You did see the one major proposal didn't yo=
u. "??? <BR>
<BR>
 Plus we have other situations on that level also.&nbsp; Unless your a world=
 level player why are going to drive all that way?&nbsp; It makes no differe=
nce to me&nbsp; I mean Bruce Meland The Editor of E times drove from Kentuck=
y&nbsp; when Toyota had flew him there then drove back. But he was an editor=
 of a Pub.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 22:29:33 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:23:59 -0600
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If JC's "9 amp   120 volts" (~1.5 HP input) PC under a 12-15 HP load, trips a 15 amp
breaker but not a 30 amp breaker....?

http://www.airpaxppp.com/pppsite/coptcb.html

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 28 22:42:42 2003
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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:42:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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>Jed Rothwell posted;
>
>>  Bear in mind that any bio-energy scheme can only produce a tiny fraction of
>>  the energy consumed in industrialized nations. All annual biomass growth in
>>  North America -- every tree and blade of grass -- could only supply about
>  > half of our annual energy requirements.

And Jones Breene replied

>
>
>If you took a large shallow lake, say the Great Salt Lake in Utah, a 
>lake that has about 5 trillion gallons of water, if that sized lake 
>were optimized for the Melis' Algae, for instance, you could get as 
>much as 10 trillion liters of H2 yearly...not exactly tiny on that 
>scale...Of course it would be less, but that gives a better glimpse 
>of the potential for this algae...
>

This is the scheme that the hydrogen people floated on Coast to Coast 
AM. It would seem to me that if you pumped sea water into Nevada, and 
built glass covered ponds, they would produce a great deal of 
hydrogen. The question is would it return the energy required to 
power it, and what the hydrogen produced would be worth.