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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jed and his page count
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At 06:26 pm 28-02-03 -0500, you wrote:

<snip>
>Either that, or try 
>to make it classified!
>
>- Jed

Talking of which, I am amazed this hasn't happened 
already.

After all, since no one understands how cold fusion
works, no one can be sure that it isn't possible to
produce a poor man's hydrogen bomb, 
i.e. a cold fusion bomb. 

The Western governments would look pretty silly if 
some rogue state were to realise this potential and
beat them to it. Fortunately, there are probably no
rogue states with the necessary scientific 
infrastructure to achieve this.

Mmm...Makes one wonder whose reading 
all the LENR stuff, eh!  ;-)

Frank Grimer

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 08:57:03 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle!  A Prespective From the idiot Jack 
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In a message dated 3/1/03 1:29:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:


> If JC's "9 amp   120 volts" (~1.5 HP input) PC under a 12-15 HP load, trips 
> a 15 amp
> breaker but not a 30 amp breaker....?
> 
>       Thanks   The breaker  is a moot point anyway the surges of starting 
the phase converter then the Air Compressor is something they do not take 
into account. Unless you have experience working with hands on situations as 
an electrical does. Whereas an Eng. does not so he has no way to relate.  
Once your at that point that you have established a flow then you can start 
the drill press.  Then because of the established flow you can fire up the 
arch welder you cannot start them all at once as in normal situations. 

Because the opposite aspects of current are being used for there operational 
aspects and they are a breed on to themselves.  Tom Meloy   who is an 
electrican  should be able to  relate because he actually  works with 
operational situations.  Whereas ENG. do not at all. but are considered the 
authorities. The problem is they are not they only think they are. 

Actually  The electrician is. Because He has the experience with operational 
situations not the Eng. so how can the ENG. be the expert ? Eric Kreig an EE 
admitted he did not understand the operational side or Business . Very few 
are willing to do that. He may have a giant ego. But if he is forced to look 
at reality he will. HOW many of you are??? 

It is not possible for him to be one without hands on experience that is the 
key to any understanding of any situation we deal with in life.  Instead of 
looking at how it could function which makes common sense the want to look at 
why it cannot function. Which makes no sense and by doing so they are 
erecting counter productive roadblocks. That they have to get around which 
impedes there ability to evolve. THAT is a classic Catch 22

Science for some reason needs boat anchors tied to them to be happy. Because 
they do not have inventive abilities and cannot relate to them. Because of 
the stronghold math only thinking  they  gravitate to because of they way 
they are taught. That came to be there prime thinking process at an early age 
  

Case in point some Ph.D. that has no hands on experience  actually working 
with operational electrical situations Comes up with a complicated math 
intensive water heater idea for a testing situation. That is a load bank but 
totally unnecessary  if you have actual real world situations that would be 
far more ideal as your testing situation 

The electrical who should know better from experience falls for it and then 
he has his own boat anchor.  Because he is more scientific that he is a hands 
on thinking electrical type.   Whereas if they would have been taught totally 
different as there forefathers were which was to deal with real world 
situations 

Instead of primarily theory only ones, they would not be in the stuck in the 
mud type situation that they cannot pull themselves out of. Once they get 
themselves into the situation because they accept the limits which is all 
main stream knows. That were placed on them whereas inventors never accepted 
those limits.  

 No one ever told them or they were to stubborn to listen when they were told 
man couldn't fly. So they assumed he could and proceeded with that mode of 
thinking when they were attempting to accomplice a goal. Whereas the in the 
box thinker would not even attempt to accomplish the goal. 

 Science has it totally backwards because when they are confronted with  new 
totally different situation. They have an automatic that is just not possible 
it cannot  be because my math says it cannot attitude and that is where they 
stop. Because of the roadblock they just created in there mind 

When it should be lets investigate first and see if it is, then at that point 
render judgment. GEE that would make real sense  no we cannot make sense that 
would be to easy. We have to have it complicated  lets use this water heater 
so we can look important. By making a simple situation a cluster your know 
what by attaching a boat anchor load of math to situation in order to puff up 
our ego's   

They have it backwards   Because they let there theories tell them   it was 
not possible to achieve that goal  I'm neither a science type or an inventor 
of devices that relate to science situations. So I look at this from an 
entire different vantage point and attempt to arrive at common sense 
conclusions.

 Now you can see why the science community probably will never be able to get 
around me. And how I was Able to have there lunch for them. THey made it easy 
for me because they do not think beyond 3 D  As you can see I do    But they 
are welcome to attempt  to play me . Understand you have to out think me in 
order to.  Good luck because your going to need it.         THE IDIOT 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/1/03=
 1:29:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If JC's "9 amp   120 volts" (~1=
.5 HP input) PC under a 12-15 HP load, trips a 15 amp<BR>
breaker but not a 30 amp breaker....?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Thanks&nbsp;&nbsp; The breake=
r&nbsp; is a moot point anyway the surges of starting the phase converter th=
en the Air Compressor is something they do not take into account. Unless you=
 have experience working with hands on situations as an electrical does. Whe=
reas an Eng. does not so he has no way to relate.&nbsp; Once your at that po=
int that you have established a flow then you can start the drill press.&nbs=
p; Then because of the established flow you can fire up the arch welder you=20=
cannot start them all at once as in normal situations. <BR>
<BR>
Because the opposite aspects of current are being used for there operational=
 aspects and they are a breed on to themselves.&nbsp; Tom Meloy&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
who is an electrican&nbsp; should be able to&nbsp; relate because he actuall=
y&nbsp; works with operational situations.&nbsp; Whereas ENG. do not at all.=
 but are considered the authorities. The problem is they are not they only t=
hink they are. <BR>
<BR>
Actually&nbsp; The electrician is. Because He has the experience with operat=
ional situations not the Eng. so how can the ENG. be the expert ? Eric Kreig=
 an EE admitted he did not understand the operational side or Business . Ver=
y few are willing to do that. He may have a giant ego. But if he is forced t=
o look at reality he will. HOW many of you are??? <BR>
<BR>
It is not possible for him to be one without hands on experience that is the=
 key to any understanding of any situation we deal with in life.&nbsp; Inste=
ad of looking at how it could function which makes common sense the want to=20=
look at why it cannot function. Which makes no sense and by doing so they ar=
e erecting counter productive roadblocks. That they have to get around which=
 impedes there ability to evolve. THAT is a classic Catch 22<BR>
<BR>
Science for some reason needs boat anchors tied to them to be happy. Because=
 they do not have inventive abilities and cannot relate to them. Because of=20=
the stronghold math only thinking&nbsp; they&nbsp; gravitate to because of t=
hey way they are taught. That came to be there prime thinking process at an=20=
early age&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Case in point some Ph.D. that has no hands on experience&nbsp; actually work=
ing with operational electrical situations Comes up with a complicated math=20=
intensive water heater idea for a testing situation. That is a load bank but=
 totally unnecessary&nbsp; if you have actual real world situations that wou=
ld be far more ideal as your testing situation <BR>
<BR>
The electrical who should know better from experience falls for it and then=20=
he has his own boat anchor.&nbsp; Because he is more scientific that he is a=
 hands on thinking electrical type.&nbsp;&nbsp; Whereas if they would have b=
een taught totally different as there forefathers were which was to deal wit=
h real world situations <BR>
<BR>
Instead of primarily theory only ones, they would not be in the stuck in the=
 mud type situation that they cannot pull themselves out of. Once they get t=
hemselves into the situation because they accept the limits which is all mai=
n stream knows. That were placed on them whereas inventors never accepted th=
ose limits.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 No one ever told them or they were to stubborn to listen when they were tol=
d man couldn't fly. So they assumed he could and proceeded with that mode of=
 thinking when they were attempting to accomplice a goal. Whereas the in the=
 box thinker would not even attempt to accomplish the goal. <BR>
<BR>
 Science has it totally backwards because when they are confronted with&nbsp=
; new totally different situation. They have an automatic that is just not p=
ossible it cannot&nbsp; be because my math says it cannot attitude and that=20=
is where they stop. Because of the roadblock they just created in there mind=
 <BR>
<BR>
When it should be lets investigate first and see if it is, then at that poin=
t render judgment. GEE that would make real sense&nbsp; no we cannot make se=
nse that would be to easy. We have to have it complicated&nbsp; lets use thi=
s water heater so we can look important. By making a simple situation a clus=
ter your know what by attaching a boat anchor load of math to situation in o=
rder to puff up our ego's&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
They have it backwards&nbsp;&nbsp; Because they let there theories tell them=
&nbsp;&nbsp; it was not possible to achieve that goal&nbsp; I'm neither a sc=
ience type or an inventor of devices that relate to science situations. So I=
 look at this from an entire different vantage point and attempt to arrive a=
t common sense conclusions.<BR>
<BR>
 Now you can see why the science community probably will never be able to ge=
t around me. And how I was Able to have there lunch for them. THey made it e=
asy for me because they do not think beyond 3 D&nbsp; As you can see I do&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But they are welcome to attempt&nbsp; to play me . Understan=
d you have to out think me in order to.&nbsp; Good luck because your going t=
o need it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THE IDIOT <BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 07:02:54 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <70.2b4a10f2.2b922546 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:01:26 EST
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics
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In a message dated 2/28/2003 3:53:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> I don't mean to defend these people, but that tank might make sense. 
> Perhaps it is a short term buffer, like a capacitor rather than a battery. 
> I know nothing about this gadget, but based on quick read of the web page I 
> 
> suppose it is another "Meyer" claim -- right? They fracture water with less 
> 
> energy than you get when you recombine it? That part is a violation of C of 
> 
> E, but once you cake-walk past that minor detail, the small reserve tank 
> might be reasonable. The Meyer process takes a few moments to kick in and 
> start producing gas, I gather. So this would work a little like my 
> emergency gasoline-powered generator. It sometimes lags a few seconds after 
> 
> we turn on a microwave oven. You can hear it kick into higher revs.

Thank you for making the above statement.   We should support such products 
as the Genesis as much as possible, especially at the onset, to get the 
product going, and give it a fair market and media chance, since they may 
really work.  Until we have evidence that a product dose not work, we should 
support the product fully, as a working and useful product, based on its 
Internet add and specifications alone.

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/28/2003 3:53:38 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I don't mean to defend these pe=
ople, but that tank might make sense. <BR>
Perhaps it is a short term buffer, like a capacitor rather than a battery. <=
BR>
I know nothing about this gadget, but based on quick read of the web page I=20=
<BR>
suppose it is another "Meyer" claim -- right? They fracture water with less=20=
<BR>
energy than you get when you recombine it? That part is a violation of C of=20=
<BR>
E, but once you cake-walk past that minor detail, the small reserve tank <BR=
>
might be reasonable. The Meyer process takes a few moments to kick in and <B=
R>
start producing gas, I gather. So this would work a little like my <BR>
emergency gasoline-powered generator. It sometimes lags a few seconds after=20=
<BR>
we turn on a microwave oven. You can hear it kick into higher revs.</BLOCKQU=
OTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for making the above statement.&nbsp;&nbsp; We should support such=
 products as the Genesis as much as possible, especially at the onset, to ge=
t the product going, and give it a fair market and media chance, since they=20=
may really work.&nbsp; Until we have evidence that a product dose not work,=20=
we should support the product fully, as a working and useful product, based=20=
on its Internet add and specifications alone.<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 07:06:17 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <7b.b5e5e83.2b922619 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:04:57 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Trying very hard   Was: Phil Karn
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: eric voicenet.com
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 PHIL     I did not know you kept track of my mails how sweet of you.   PHIL 
prove you are a VP at your CO. You have failed to after several requests from 
me to do so.   I just could not understand how a CO would be that ignorant to 
make you one unless your family owned it. If you were my kid you be the mail 
boy Because I have not seen VP qualifications out of you yet.

  Because that is all I/we will look at is abilities not EDU> at all PILL 
PILL even Eric kreig the well known skeptic the moderator of the one site you 
subscribe to knows we have a product and have sold them. They either function 
or they do not there are no in between  He has even had contact with the guy 
in the machine business who ha sold them.  SO you calling me a nut case is 
wearing thin 

He is AN EE like you and does not want to admit that if they function as 
advertised  he may not be able to explain them  So   How about proving in 
private mail to This Phil your a VP of a Major Corp. as you said  and how big 
is the CO because major Co.'s  require you to be a Ph.D. to be a VP and in 
Major CO VP do Not report To The Chief Scientist   SO a great deal of what 
you said was Questionable I' in the process of creating a CO. 

So I know how Corp. Structures are set up where 99% do not THEN when I 
questioned you about using the CO computer for personal you really copped an 
attitude which indicated you were just an EE cube boy wanna  be VP You are on 
me all the time about my claims  Well how about proving your claims   What 
goes around comes around.    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 08:43:51 2003
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Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 11:44:37 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Even peanut shells, Jimmy!

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/02/25/hydrogen_source/index.html

Terry

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Salon On H2 Sources
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Terry,

Did you notice on page 3, *Bush's 2004 budget reduces the amount of research dollars going into renewable-energy sources over the previous year, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. For instance, the administration recommended cutting the budget for wind power by 5.5 percent. *

How crazy is that? Bush claims to want to move to the H2 economy, but he doesn't want to make it renewable? 

Give me a break...

Jones


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Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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Thomas,

> This is the scheme that the hydrogen people floated on Coast to Coast 
> AM. It would seem to me that if you pumped sea water into Nevada, and 
> built glass covered ponds, they would produce a great deal of 
> hydrogen. The question is would it return the energy required to 
> power it, and what the hydrogen produced would be worth.

I didn't hear about that particular show, and was suggesting a hypothetical artificial lake, not a real one. The Great Salt Lake was used for illustrative purposes only - no sane person would actually suggest that the GSL itself, nor any other natural lake so close to a city be used to produce hydrogen, and glass is WAY too expensive and fragile to cover such a lake anyway, and you wouldn't want to pump sea water for great distances under any circumstances. Here is a non-technical story from "Wired" magazine that may be of interest
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,54456,00.html

The Melis' process, which I hope Rothwell will try to understand next time, before regurgitating some meaningless nonsense about biomass in general, is unique and therefore prior biomass studies are totally irrelevant to the Melis process or really to any of the Algae-to-H2 plans. They are orders of magnitude more efficient.

Before spending the several hours studying the online material and making a trip to the Cal library to study the science journal materials from Melis and other similar schemes (there are several), I was not aware of just how revolutionary this system really is. Yes, I have accepted the information at face value, but can think of no reason that it is not accurate, other than self-interest, but you can be your own judge on that. Most of these folks are University profs, working closely with NREL, not entrepreneurs or scam artists. 

The Melis and most other H2-algae systems require two adjacent water areas, one is uncovered and has nutrients - it can probably have some salt content but that is unnecessary. The other is covered and immediately adjacent to the first. A pair of artificial lakes, sited in a former desert is ideal. An artificial lake the size of the GSL might produce, as mentioned, 10 trillion liters of H2 yearly, this is 350 billion cu ft of H2. This has the same energy content as about one per cent of ALL the natural gas used in the USA, so to put it another way, it would take 50 lakes this size to substitute for half of the natural gas we currently use every year, but it is totally renewable.

The larger lake is where the algae are effectively "re-energized" about every 4 days after making all of the hydrogen they can. Then the process repeats and the algae are strained out of the nutrient-water and washed into an adjacent, smaller, covered lake (covered with a thin flexible transparent material),  that serves to capture and funnel the H2 into storage and then to pipelines). The covered lake has no nutrients, which is necessary for the algae give up hydrogen in the first place. It is like their survival mechanism. The algae give up H2  for 4 days and then they are returned to the uncovered lake to be re-energized, but it is all to be accomplished on a continuous flow, not a batch process. 

The whole thing will be done automatically with little labor on a continuous basis so that the bulk of the energy input is solar and therefore the major cost components  are depreciation, amortization and interest, kind of like wind energy but the output per acre is estimated to be far higher than wind energy, and the cost of hydrogen is projected to be far lower than using wind to electrolyze H2. 

One could site these artificial lakes in flat desert areas that are close enough to a river to supply the make-up water (that lost to evaporation), even if the sites are wind free, but the best use would probably be to site them jointly with wind farms and use the some of wind to turn the pumps. As it turns out, there are many areas in the Southwest USA that would work for this, and a large part of Australia is perfect, as well as parts of the Sahara and Gobi, etc. except, of course, for the protests of certain environmentalists, many of whom are opposed even to using the desert...you just cannot please everyone. 

IMHO this process, if it performs as asserted, makes more sense than committing the same money to wind farms, which the people at Melis would argue are way more expensive, probably less reliable, use too much valuable structural materials, are certainly less efficient, and even more of an environmental problem than their own (promising, but yet unproven) system.  Bottom line, before we waste too much money on expensive wind farms, lets give Melis, or any others with a bona fide algae-to-H2 system, a chance to show their stuff. The payoff could be enormous. 

BTW I am not a Melis investor, but probably would be if an IPO comes out soon.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 09:16:09 2003
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Salon On H2 Sources

Jones wrote:

> Terry,
>
> Did you notice on page 3, *Bush's 2004 budget reduces the amount of research dollars
going into renewable-energy sources over the previous year, according to the Union of
Concerned Scientists. For instance, the administration recommended cutting the budget
for wind power by 5.5 percent. *
>
> How crazy is that? Bush claims to want to move to the H2 economy, but he doesn't
want to make it renewable?

OF COURSE NOT. He's out to peddle VP Dick Cheney's Wyoming Coal and Natural Gas.

Regards,

Frederick
>
> Give me a break...
>
> Jones
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 09:16:29 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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Jones Beene wrote:

>The Melis' process, which I hope Rothwell will try to understand next 
>time, before regurgitating some meaningless nonsense about biomass in 
>general . . .

What I wrote may not be applicable. As I noted, some feral species do well. 
But it certainly is not meaningless or nonsense. Or if it is, the textbooks 
on biology and agriculture are wrong. If Beene disagrees he should explain 
why you don't see feral wheat or corn growing in national forests.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 10:10:23 2003
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I vote for fleets of seagoing "super-barges" floated near the tropics that can grow
(hydroponics?)and process, fast-growing biomass "Canes/Bamboo) into storable fuels.

There is a species of "false bamboo" that grows in the southeast and southwest, that I
had in my yard, that I had to cut every year, that was tested at a local ag experiment
lab that was consistently producing over 40 tons (dried to 15% moisture) per
acre-year.

"We have found that through drip irrigation sugarcane's productivity has increased to
80 tonnes per acre against the average of 35 tonnes per acre normally,'' Dr Jade said.

"Bamboo grows more rapidly than any other plant on earth...As fast as 50 inches in a
24-hour period."

Regards,

Frederick


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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW       Friday, 21 Feb 03
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:17:26 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 21 Feb 03   Washington, DC

1. COLUMBIA: SHIELA WIDNALL IS ADDED TO THE INVESTIGATION BOARD. 
In the first of the many hearings that will examine the accident,
NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe found himself having to defend
the independence of the Investigation Board he had appointed (WN
14 Feb 03).  So O'Keefe added MIT physicist and aeronautical
engineer Shiela Widnall to the Board, and is considering adding
additional scientists.  Best known for work in the fluid dynamics
of aircraft turbulence, Widnall is a former Secretary of the Air
Force (1993 - 1997), and is certainly independent. But finding
the failure mechanism that led to the breakup of Columbia is less
important than understanding the NASA culture that risked sending
a crew into space at enormous cost to do trivial science.

2. PROTEIN CRYSTALLOGRAPHY: NASA KNEW THE SCIENCE WAS VOODOO.  
In the days following the Columbia tragedy, NASA repeatedly cited
protein crystal growth as an example of important microgravity
research conducted on the shuttle.  NASA knew better.  It was 20
years ago that a protein crystal was first grown on Space Lab 1.
NASA boasted that the lysozyme crystal was 1,000 times as large
as one grown in the same apparatus on Earth.  However, the
apparatus was not designed to operate in Earth gravity.  The
space-grown crystal was no larger than lysozyme crystals grown by
standard techniques on Earth.  But the myth was born.  In 1992, a
team of Americans that had done protein crystal studies on Mir,
commented in Nature (26 Nov 92) that microgravity had led to no
significant breakthrough in protein crystal growth. Every protein
that crystalizes in space, crystallizes right here on Earth. 
Nevertheless, in 1997, Larry DeLucas, a University of Alabama at
Birmingham chemist and a former astronaut, testified before the
Space Subcommittee of the House that a protein structure,
determined from a crystal grown on the shuttle, resulted in a new
flu drug that was in clinical trials.  It simply was not true. 
Two years later Science magazine(25 June 99)revealed that the
crystal had been grown in Australia, which is a long way off, but
it's not in space.  Meanwhile, the American Society for Cell
Biology, which includes the biologists most involved in protein
crystallography, called for the cancellation of the space-based
program.  Hoping to regain some credibility, an embarrassed NASA
turned to the National Academy of Science to review biotechnology
plans for the Space Station.  On March 1, 2000, the National
Research Council, the research arm of the Academy, released their
study.  It concluded that the enormous investment in protein
crystal growth on the Shuttle and Mir had not led to a single
unique scientific result.  It might be supposed that programs in
space-grown protein crystals would be terminated.  It was a shock
to open the press kit for STS-107 and discover that the final
flight of Columbia carried a commercial protein crystal growth
experiment for the Center for Biophysical Science and
Engineering, University of Alabama at Birmingham.  The Director
of the Center is Lawrence J. DeLucas, O.D., Ph.D.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 11:50:43 2003
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Subject: Eric Kreig no the The fat lady has not sung yet  
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        alternativefuelvehicles yahoogrougs.com
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In a message dated 3/1/03 9:56:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com 
writes:


> Jack,
>  
>    you seem pretty agitated at Ted.  Does this mean you still haven't 
> gotten MOTT or any other 3rd party qualified evaluator to take a look at 
> your stuff?   Sure, Ted's bike may be slow, but how long can it take you to 
> drive to the billion dollar MOTT place?   
>  
>   TED will not discuss anything he has called 10 times and starts off will 
why don't you do this and this.   i say how do you know anything because you 
have never checked after you saw a demo, that you declined to test and had 
meters with you.  That does not phase him and he  rants and raves that we 
meaning what i do not know who we is have told you to do this or that.  he 
does not stop until he hangs up 

   I told you we have two factions now  since Wayne died. We will have the 
unit as of next week that was sold because he has sold his machine that it 
ran and they the other faction have the one that was going to be tested by 
mott . I will talk to mott the end of next week to see if they have heard 
from the other corp faction because i will be at the SAE all week  

WE are not going to build it but have it for demo purposes   Because it 
proves the first new electrical theory  in a century  in a drmatic fashon.    
WE have another situation. Far better. WE are not going to take our phase con 
 unit to mott   

 Plus we have several big business type contacts you saw the one proposal 
from out of the country  that is a Hugh one we have two others just like. 
that one  WE can use the phase converter to secure them. 

Steven Greer in DC  I guess wanted to control and have not heard back from 
after he called like Ray Winn the billionaire in Calif. wanted to also. That 
is not going to happen I do not know what the other Corp. faction is going to 
do. 

As far as I know we are the only ones that can build the phase con.  not 
them.  If it was build Then there is the unfinished self contained DCtoAC  
that puts out 4000 watts for probably about 5 days before needing a recharge  
that mott saw under construction. They have but we can finish  that was the 
unit I was going to use to get your 10,000 you offer. 

 I do not think they can finnish it  but our new situation is far better than 
that to. The Cadcam is being worked on now for the new situation and the 
computer stress test is next. BUT we will have a phase converter for demo 
until it is done.  

IN your book that  is big time over unity at 800% EFF> but we only say it is 
95% Some guy on Vortex is taking about coming to test it. From MINN  you know 
him Tom Meloy? spelling I do not know what for unless he is a big business 
player But it is his dime noy mine so i care less. 

I was there where he lives in late may to see the thermo King Corp. After 
some of there ENG. contacted me  from my photo being on the russian Sci. Mag. 
I only spoke with there Eng. not the Corp. side but now we are onthe verge I 
will be contacting that side.  YOU had contact with the one ENG> He has a 
demo Disk. Carl Speck at Delphi has one also Mott and General Motors 
Institute who saw 110 V to Dramatic 3 phase  operational have them also. ASK 
them if they do.  

 HEY  i just remembered  Dan the GM Eng. with the GM arrogant attitude have 
Carl Speck Delphi's Chief Scientst send you a copy. I forgot Carl had one. 
That should shut you up DAN  Then you can have a good Cry about all that 
money and time you spent  obtaining those now worthless  degrees    

Carl fix him up so can read them and weep then  I can totally bury him once 
and for all. Carl he is one of those arrogant know it all ones not a  
Gentleman class act world level visionary like you are.  Carl, Tony  Lee your 
boss a Vice President said you and him went to see Hal Putoff,   Hal said he 
never met you. Was it Hal fox?   Who I know and Stayed with in June on my 
west coast trip?     Eric,  Ted  your clone buddy cannot seem to make it from 
Detroit. to test riding his bicycle . which is all he has 

 Mott will see our new situation when it is done You may understand better if 
you call or give me a no. and I will call and explain because you understand 
very little in mail.   Because you only look at things from your point of 
view  because your so closed and narrow minded   After all your a skeptic  
all skeptics are totally closed and narrow minded they listen to zero. you 
talked  to Wayne 90 minutes   but you only have your opinion you listen to no 
other opinions and understand about zero if it is not in a book   

 AND is why I pound on you so much but as I said you have helped me a great 
deal with your postings that enabled me to  make bueiness contacts from them  
 Because I have no need for any sci. situations. the business contacts only 
care if it functions they do not care how.  I sent a copy to Ted Loder he is 
with Greer and is at the Univ. of New Hampshire 

 I'm going to call him today. And see what is shaking with him. Because he 
has been out of town for a few weeks. That toy they have that they think is 
the best thing since sliced bread is going to be just that a toy. There happy 
until I rain on there parade  then they will not like me at all. 

    But they have a powerful group that I'm interested in but I do not need 
them. It is nice to have the edge and be in that position . THIS is real and 
now you see why I do not care about pissy little SCI. situations I need to 
put a co.  together not dick around with the SCI. comm and there Giant Ego. 
you know units exist that have been sold period  

So they have to function  Period  that does not take rocket science to figure 
that out  You know that infinite energy build an obsolete one with wayne's 
instructions  your have a copy there paper work. they sent us  You know they 
cannot explain it  

  I would say 98% the hand writing is on the wall  as far as your 120 years 
worth of electrical theories going down the drain. No the fat lady has not 
sung  but she is on stage  so you know she is there.       HELLO HELLO are 
you there. ?????  


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/1/03=
 9:56:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack,</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; you seem pretty=
 agitated at Ted.&nbsp; Does this mean you still haven't gotten MOTT or any=20=
other 3rd party qualified evaluator to take a look at your stuff?&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Sure, Ted's bike may be slow, but how long can it take you to drive to the=
 billion dollar MOTT place?&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" styl=
e=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=
 LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><B>&nbsp; TED will not discuss anything he has called 10 times=20=
and starts off will why don't you do this and this.&nbsp;&nbsp; i say how do=
 you know anything because you have never checked after you saw a demo, that=
 you declined to test and had meters with you.&nbsp; That does not phase him=
 and he&nbsp; rants and raves that we meaning what i do not know who we is h=
ave told you to do this or that.&nbsp; he does not stop until he hangs up <B=
R>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; I told you we have two factions now&nbsp; since Wayne died. We=20=
will have the unit as of next week that was sold because he has sold his mac=
hine that it ran and they the other faction have the one that was going to b=
e tested by mott . I will talk to mott the end of next week to see if they h=
ave heard from the other corp faction because i will be at the SAE all week&=
nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
WE are not going to build it but have it for demo purposes&nbsp;&nbsp; Becau=
se it proves the first new electrical theory&nbsp; in a century&nbsp; in a d=
rmatic fashon.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE have another situation. Far better. WE a=
re not going to take our phase con&nbsp; unit to mott&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Plus we have several big business type contacts you saw the one proposal fr=
om out of the country&nbsp; that is a Hugh one we have two others just like.=
 that one&nbsp; WE can use the phase converter to secure them. <BR>
<BR>
Steven Greer in DC&nbsp; I guess wanted to control and have not heard back f=
rom after he called like Ray Winn the billionaire in Calif. wanted to also.=20=
That is not going to happen I do not know what the other Corp. faction is go=
ing to do. <BR>
<BR>
As far as I know we are the only ones that can build the phase con.&nbsp; no=
t them.&nbsp; If it was build Then there is the unfinished self contained DC=
toAC&nbsp; that puts out 4000 watts for probably about 5 days before needing=
 a recharge&nbsp; that mott saw under construction. They have but we can fin=
ish&nbsp; that was the unit I was going to use to get your 10,000 you offer.=
 <BR>
<BR>
 I do not think they can finnish it&nbsp; but our new situation is far bette=
r than that to. The Cadcam is being worked on now for the new situation and=20=
the computer stress test is next. BUT we will have a phase converter for dem=
o until it is done.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
IN your book that&nbsp; is big time over unity at 800% EFF&gt; but we only s=
ay it is 95% Some guy on Vortex is taking about coming to test it. From MINN=
&nbsp; you know him Tom Meloy? spelling I do not know what for unless he is=20=
a big business player But it is his dime noy mine so i care less. <BR>
<BR>
I was there where he lives in late may to see the thermo King Corp. After so=
me of there ENG. contacted me&nbsp; from my photo being on the russian Sci.=20=
Mag. I only spoke with there Eng. not the Corp. side but now we are onthe ve=
rge I will be contacting that side.&nbsp; YOU had contact with the one ENG&g=
t; He has a demo Disk. Carl Speck at Delphi has one also Mott and General Mo=
tors Institute who saw 110 V to Dramatic 3 phase&nbsp; operational have them=
 also. ASK them if they do.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 HEY&nbsp; i just remembered&nbsp; Dan the GM Eng. with the GM arrogant atti=
tude have Carl Speck Delphi's Chief Scientst send you a copy. I forgot Carl=20=
had one. That should shut you up DAN&nbsp; Then you can have a good Cry abou=
t all that money and time you spent&nbsp; obtaining those now worthless&nbsp=
; degrees&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Carl fix him up so can read them and weep then&nbsp; I can totally bury him=20=
once and for all. Carl he is one of those arrogant know it all ones not a&nb=
sp; Gentleman class act world level visionary like you are.&nbsp; Carl, Tony=
&nbsp; Lee your boss a Vice President said you and him went to see Hal Putof=
f,&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal said he never met you. Was it Hal fox?&nbsp;&nbsp; Who I=20=
know and Stayed with in June on my west coast trip?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
Eric,&nbsp; Ted&nbsp; your clone buddy cannot seem to make it from Detroit.=20=
to test riding his bicycle . which is all he has <BR>
<BR>
 Mott will see our new situation when it is done You may understand better i=
f you call or give me a no. and I will call and explain because you understa=
nd very little in mail.&nbsp;&nbsp; Because you only look at things from you=
r point of view&nbsp; because your so closed and narrow minded&nbsp;&nbsp; A=
fter all your a skeptic&nbsp; all skeptics are totally closed and narrow min=
ded they listen to zero. you talked&nbsp; to Wayne 90 minutes&nbsp;&nbsp; bu=
t you only have your opinion you listen to no other opinions and understand=20=
about zero if it is not in a book&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 AND is why I pound on you so much but as I said you have helped me a great=20=
deal with your postings that enabled me to&nbsp; make bueiness contacts from=
 them&nbsp;&nbsp; Because I have no need for any sci. situations. the busine=
ss contacts only care if it functions they do not care how.&nbsp; I sent a c=
opy to Ted Loder he is with Greer and is at the Univ. of New Hampshire <BR>
<BR>
 I'm going to call him today. And see what is shaking with him. Because he h=
as been out of town for a few weeks. That toy they have that they think is t=
he best thing since sliced bread is going to be just that a toy. There happy=
 until I rain on there parade&nbsp; then they will not like me at all. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But they have a powerful group that I'm interested in but=
 I do not need them. It is nice to have the edge and be in that position . T=
HIS is real and now you see why I do not care about pissy little SCI. situat=
ions I need to put a co.&nbsp; together not dick around with the SCI. comm a=
nd there Giant Ego. you know units exist that have been sold period&nbsp; <B=
R>
<BR>
So they have to function&nbsp; Period&nbsp; that does not take rocket scienc=
e to figure that out&nbsp; You know that infinite energy build an obsolete o=
ne with wayne's instructions&nbsp; your have a copy there paper work. they s=
ent us&nbsp; You know they cannot explain it&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; I would say 98% the hand writing is on the wall&nbsp; as far as your=20=
120 years worth of electrical theories going down the drain. No the fat lady=
 has not sung&nbsp; but she is on stage&nbsp; so you know she is there.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO HELLO are you there. ?????&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 12:38:02 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <91.2b222b2a.2b927290 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 15:31:12 EST
Subject:  COMMEN SENSE  What happen to it ??? 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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  I dunno, I disagree.   I think the hardest part about "Jack" is figuring 
out
where "Jack" comes from.  But, I think I've sorta figured "Jack" out ... and
so ... "Jack" no longer bothers me.....like before.  It took awhile though.

Curtis


    HIS statement is moronic     HELLO HELLO  ARE YOU THERE?    How ? IT IS 
NOT POSSIBLE         IT is about impossible to actually totally understand 
the meaning of anything in mail. Unless you GOD.  That requires spoken 
communication as it always has been and it always will. Because of the vast 
differences in interpretation of the same subject matter. But people  on the 
net have lost sight of that.   They are 99% judgmental and will not face a 
situation where they actually have to communicate on a one to one situation.

 HELLO     I present new totally different evolutionary Tech. situations that 
do not exist and if people want to attempt to understand they call,   like a 
coupe of days ago from half away around the world. If they want to only look 
at only what they think is correct they will not call. BECAUSE they are 
totally closed and narrow minded

 Because they have all ready made up their minds from what they read.  That 
is a major blunder our net driven society is making. Witch is coming to 
conclusions before investigating. You cannot make final decisions from what 
you read it is not possable. It never has been it never will be.       WHY 
CAN'T YOU PEOPLE SEE THAT ?    iT IS ONLY COMMON SENSE 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; I dunno, I disagre=
e.&nbsp;&nbsp; I think the hardest part about "Jack" is figuring out<BR>
where "Jack" comes from.&nbsp; But, I think I've sorta figured "Jack" out ..=
. and<BR>
so ... "Jack" no longer bothers me.....like before.&nbsp; It took awhile tho=
ugh.<BR>
<BR>
Curtis<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>HIS statement is moronic</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B=
> HELLO HELLO&nbsp; ARE YOU THERE?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How ? IT IS NOT POSSIBL=
E&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> IT is about impossi=
ble to actually totally understand the meaning of anything in mail. Unless y=
ou GOD.&nbsp; That requires spoken communication as it always has been and i=
t always will. Because of the vast differences in interpretation of the same=
 subject matter. But people&nbsp; on the net have lost sight of that.&nbsp;&=
nbsp; They are 99% judgmental and will not face a situation where they actua=
lly have to communicate on a one to one situation.<BR>
<BR>
 HELLO&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I present new totally different evolutionary=20=
Tech. situations that do not exist and if people want to attempt to understa=
nd they call,&nbsp;&nbsp; like a coupe of days ago from half away around the=
 world. If they want to only look at only what they think is correct they wi=
ll not call. BECAUSE they are totally closed and narrow minded<BR>
<BR>
 Because they have all ready made up their minds from what they read.&nbsp;=20=
That is a major blunder our net driven society is making. Witch is coming to=
 conclusions before investigating. You cannot make final decisions from what=
 you read it is not possable. It never has been it never will be.&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE SEE THAT ?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
iT IS ONLY COMMON SENSE </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 13:49:17 2003
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Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 14:34:10 -0700
From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
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  Any complete physical theory must be able to calculate any physical 
constant from
fundamental principles alone (no empiricism).   Here,  Dewey Larson's 
Reciprocal System shines.

See:

http://www.rstheory.com/index.html

This is my favorite:  it explains what magnetism really is:

http://www.rsystem.org/ce/dimmot.htm


http://www.rsphysics.org

Here are derivations of  neutron lifetime, G,  and Planck's constant, 
all from theory alone
(Try that with conventional physics :-) ):

Neutron Lifetime
_________________________

The short form:

Neutron mean lifetime t = c^2/2R / ( 128 + 1/8 ) = 949.1  sec.
where R is the Rydberg frequency, and 1/(128 + 1/8) is the fraction
of the motions that constitute the neutron that are effective in our
reference system.

 >From K.V.K. Nehru, "The Lifetime of the Neutron", Reciprocity, Autumn 
1983,
ISSN 0276-4172, The journal for ISUS, inc.




_______________________

G (My derivation)

In the Reciprocal System (RS), there is a consistent set of natural units.
All physical constants are derived from these.
(They usually have a value of 1 in RS.)

A complication is that in non-RS physics, mass is treated as an
independent entity, whereas in RS, it is in units of time3/length3.

All units are in terms of space and time only. All physical units can
be derived consistently in these terms, since everything is made up
of combinations of actual units of space and time only,
in various combinations in 3 dimensions; i.e. the fundamental particle is
an actual discreet unit of space-time).

First we'll derive some of the Reciprocal System's natural units <nu>.

Unit speed is c = s/t, s=space(length), t=time.
Acceleration is s/t2
Force is in units of t/s2.
Unit mass in RS is t3/s3.

To convert the unit natural values to cgs, we have to equate these to some
physical phenomena known in cgs:

<nu> stands for "natural unit".

Unit speed is obviously c.
Unit time is 1/2 cycle of R (because a full cycle includes a unit of time
alternating in opposite directions to make a full cycle).

For R in Hz (sec^-1), unit-time t is:
1/(2R) (sec/unit-time<nu>).

Unit length is therefore:
#       c/2R (unit-length<cs>/unit-length<nu>).

Unit acceleration:
#       2Rc (unit-acceleration<cs>/unit-acceleration<nu>)

Because mass in RS is defined in terms of space and time, and in other
systems it is an independent unit, we derive hybrid conversion factors:

Define M the mass in amu of a natural unit of mass.
M = 1 + 1/(128*(1+2/9)) = 1.00639205 amu.

The term (128*(1+2/9)) = 156.4444  is called the inter-regional ratio in 
RS,
and is derived from the degrees of freedom the motions constituting
an atom have.

<cs> means unit expressed in  cm and seconds.
<nu> means natural units.
<gram> means unit mass expressed in grams.

1 mole of natural mass units = M  grams<cgs>
#       M/N (unit-mass<gram>/unit-mass<nu>).

1 natural mass unit in space-time units (sec3/cm3) is:
#       1/c3 (unit-mass<cs>/unit-mass<nu>)

The ratio of unit mass expressed in sec3/cm3
to unit mass expressed in grams:

#       N/Mc3 (unit-mass<cs>/unit-mass<gram>)


Using Force=ma, we must use the hybrid mass conversion factor to get the
ratio Force<nu>/dyne:

dyne = unit-mass<cgs> unit-acceleration<cgs>
F<nu> = unit-mass<nu> unit-acceleration<nu> =  t/s2 = (1/2R)/(c/2R)2 = 
2R/c2.

#       2R/c2 (unit-force<cs>/unit-force<nu>)

dynes = grams<cgs> cm / sec2

F<nu> = unit-mass<nu> unit-length<nu> / unit-time<nu>^2 =
                        t/s2 = (1/2R)/(c/2R)2 = 2R/c2.

dynes = F<nu> M/N(grams<cgs>/unit-mass<nu>) c/2R (cm/unit-length<nu>) /
                               (1/(2R))2 (sec/unit-time<nu>)2.

unit force<cgs> is:
#       2RcM/N (dynes/unit-force<nu>)

-----

Now that the conversion factors are defined, we'll work with s, and t
which are unit-length<nu> and unit-time<nu>.

(unit-force<nu>) = (unit-mass<nu>) * (unit-acceleration<nu>)
t/s2                   =       t3/s3                         s/t2

The force of one unit-mass<nu> toward another at unit-length<nu> is
3 * unit-force<nu>. The factor 3 is due to gravity being effective in
three scalar dimensions.

Converting s and t from unity natural units to cm and seconds, we get

(c2/2R) sec/cm2 == c3 unit-mass<cs>  *       1/2Rc cm/sec2

The force of m units of mass toward n units of mass at unit-length is
just mn times the force for one mass unit (unitless m,n).

The force of two masses reduces as the square of the number d of 
unit-lengths
separating them (unitless d).

The general force equations are:

F<nu> = G<nu> mn/d2 (unit-force<nu>); where G<nu> = unitless 3,
and m,n,d are multipliers of natural units.

Converting natural units to cm and seconds:

F(mass<cs> cm/sec2)  = 3 mn/d2  unit-mass<cs>  cm<nu>/(sec<nu>)2

Converting mass in space-time units to grams:

F(gram cm/sec2) = F<dyne> =
       3 mn/d2  N/Mc3 unit-mass<gram>  cm<nu>/(sec<nu>)2

So G<cgs> = 3N/Mc3 = 6.66559478 E-8 dyne-cm2/g2

The gravitational constant is 3 times the
ratio of natural unit mass in space-time units to unit mass expressed in 
grams.

(Rydberg dropped out, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the
original post).
---
The above derivation can be extended to electric and magnetic phenomena,
as they are the 1 and 2 dimensional equivalents of gravity.:

Electric charge in RS is t/s
Magnetic pole strength is t2/s2

Coulomb's law of electrostatic attraction is:

F = k Q1 Q2 / d2

In natural units t/s2 = k (t/s)(t/s)/s2
so k is s2/t = 136670.11 cm2/sec.

Coulomb's law of magnetostatics is

F = km M1 M2 / d2, where M is t2/s2

so km is s4/t3 = 1.228333 E26
__
References:

Permittivity, Permeability, and the speed of Light in the Reciprocal 
System,
       -Ronald W. Satz, Reciprocity Autumn, 1988

Basic Properties of Matter -Dewey B. Larson, ISUS, Inc. 1988.


Planck's Constant:  (Dr. Ronald Satz)

http://www.rsystem.org/rs/satz/constant.htm

______________________________________________

A NEW DERIVATION OF PLANCK'S CONSTANT

To present-day physical science the numerical value of Planck's constant 
is a mystery: quantum mechanica does not have a theoretical method for 
its calculation. By contrast the Reciprocal System of theory derives the 
value of all physical constants, including Planck's constant, from its 
fundamental postulates. 

Let us now proceed with the new derivation. First, consider conceptually 
the linear vibration of the photon. The oscillation takes place over one 
space unit which, simultaneously, is also one time unit. In the material 
sector of the universe, we define frequency to be cycles/sec, because 
here it is time that appears to have a uniform progression; in the 
cosmic sector of the universe, hypothetical cosmic observers would 
define frequency to be cycles/cm (or some such length unit), because 
there it is space that would appear to have a uniform progression. 
Actually, the photon exists at the boundary between the two sectors, 
where both space and time progress uniformly. Here the correct, natural 
definition of frequency must be cycles/(cm-sec) (or equivalent units). 
To put it another way, frequency in the natural sense is the number of 
cycles per space-time unit. Photons of all frequencies can be observed 
in both sectors, and the only way that this could be possible is if the 
denominator of the natural definition contains both a space unit and a 
time unit. This then causes Planck's constant to have the actual 
dimensions of erg-cm-sec. However, if the dimensions of frequency are 
assumed to be cycles/sec, rather than cycles/(cm-sec), then the 
dimensions of Planck's constant are erg-sec. Let E be photon energy, h 
be Planck's constant, and Öbe photon frequency. Then, as usual, we have

E=h*Ö
(1)


In space-time terms, equation (1) is

    [  
t˛
  ]
  
t
    -----     1
-- =


  (

t/s


  )

----                        (2)
s   -----
s * t
   
t/s
 


In the cgs system of units, equation (1) is

  [  
sec˛
  ]  
  -----       1
 erg =


  (

sec/cm


  )

-------              (3)
  ----- cm * sec
 
erg
 


Observe, in both cases, the dimensional consistency. Since the 
oscillation of the photon takes place with in a unit of space-time, the 
interregional ratio must be contained within Planck's constant. With 
this factor and the dimensional information from above, Planck's 
constant is

 
1
 
t˛0

h=
--------
*
-------
  156.4444


   (

sec/cm


  )


-------
erg


where t is the natural unit of time (1.620666 * 10'18 sec).

Ref. 3 states that the ratio of (sec/cm)/erg is 2.236066 x 10-8. This 
figure is deduced as follows. Dimensionally unit mass is tŗ/sŗ , or 
3.711381 * 10-32 secŗ/cmŗ. Avogadro's constant is the number of atoms 
per gram atomic weight. 6.02486 * 10-23. The reciprocal of this number, 
1.66979 * 10-24, in grams, is therefore the mass equivalent of unit 
atomic weightz˛. Thus to convert from the unit secŗ/cmŗ to grams we must 
divide by 2.236066 * 10-8. From the euprsssion E = mc˛ we see that the 
sa.me conversion factor must apply to energy (in ergs) to keep the 
equation balanced. (Nehruŗ modi ied his equation to include secondary 
mass; however, his rasulting equation is dimensionally incorrsct. 
Furthermore, secondary mass varies between the subatoms and atoms and so 
cannot be a part of the conversion factor). Thus the numerical value of 
Planck's constant is

h = 6.6102662 g 10-27 erg-sec
(5)


(when frequency is assumed to have the dimensions cycles/sec).
This is 99.77% of the egperimental value of 6.6266 * 10-27 erg-sec. 
Given the uncertainties involved in the determination of Avogadro's 
constant and the natural unit of time, the result is satisfaetory. Any 
improvement in the accuracy of these values would be reflected in an 
improvement in the accuracy of the calculation of Planck's constant.

References

   1. Dewey B. Larson, The Structure of the Physical Universe (Portland,
      Oregon: North Pacific Pub- lishers, 1969), pp. 117-118.
   2. Dewey B. Larson, Nothing But Motion (Port- land, Oregon: North
      Pacific Publishers,1979), pp. 157-168.
   3. K.V.K. Nehru, "Theoretical Evaluation of Planck's Constant,"
      Reciprocity, Vol. XII, No. 3.


______________________

Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.
Scottsdale, Arizona

--------------050604070902050601080809
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
 Any complete physical theory must be able to calculate any physical constant 
from<br>
 fundamental principles alone (no empiricism). &nbsp; Here, &nbsp;Dewey Larson's Reciprocal 
System shines.<br>
 <br>
 See:<br>
 <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://www.rstheory.com/index.html">http://www.rstheory.com/index.html</a><br>
 <br>
 This is my favorite: &nbsp;it explains what magnetism really is:<br>
 <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://www.rsystem.org/ce/dimmot.htm">http://www.rsystem.org/ce/dimmot.htm</a><br>
 <br>
 <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.rsphysics.org">http://www.rsphysics.org</a><br>
 <br>
 Here are derivations of&nbsp; neutron lifetime, G,&nbsp; and Planck's constant, all
from theory alone<br>
 (Try that with conventional physics :-) ):<br>
 <br>
 Neutron Lifetime<br>
 _________________________<br>
 <br>
 The short form:<br>
 <br>
 Neutron mean lifetime t = c^2/2R / ( 128 + 1/8 ) = 949.1&nbsp; sec.<br>
 where R is the Rydberg frequency, and 1/(128 + 1/8) is the fraction<br>
 of the motions that constitute the neutron that are effective in our<br>
 reference system.<br>
 <br>
 &gt;From K.V.K. Nehru, "The Lifetime of the Neutron", Reciprocity, Autumn
1983,<br>
 ISSN 0276-4172, The journal for ISUS, inc.<br>
 <br>
 <br>
 <br>
 <br>
 _______________________<br>
 <br>
 G (My derivation)<br>
 <br>
 In the Reciprocal System (RS), there is a consistent set of natural units.
 <br>
 All physical constants are derived from these. <br>
 (They usually have a value of 1 in RS.) <br>
  <br>
 A complication is that in non-RS physics, mass is treated as an <br>
 independent entity, whereas in RS, it is in units of time<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>/length<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>. <br>
  <br>
 All units are in terms of space and time only. All physical units can <br>
 be derived consistently in these terms, since everything is made up <br>
 of combinations of actual units of space and time only, <br>
 in various combinations in 3 dimensions; i.e. the fundamental particle is
 <br>
 an actual discreet unit of space-time). <br>
  <br>
 First we'll derive some of the Reciprocal System's natural units &lt;nu&gt;.
 <br>
  <br>
 Unit speed is c = s/t, s=space(length), t=time. <br>
 Acceleration is s/t<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
 Force is in units of t/s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>. <br>
 Unit mass in RS is t<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>/s<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>. <br>
  <br>
 To convert the unit natural values to cgs, we have to equate these to some
 <br>
 physical phenomena known in cgs: <br>
<br>
&lt;nu&gt; stands for "natural unit".<br>
  <br>
 Unit speed is obviously c. <br>
 Unit time is 1/2 cycle of R (because a full cycle includes a unit of time
 <br>
 alternating in opposite directions to make a full cycle). <br>
  <br>
 For R in Hz (sec^-1), unit-time t is: <br>
 1/(2R) (sec/unit-time&lt;nu&gt;). <br>
  <br>
 Unit length is therefore: <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c/2R (unit-length&lt;cs&gt;/unit-length&lt;nu&gt;). <br>
  <br>
 Unit acceleration: <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2Rc (unit-acceleration&lt;cs&gt;/unit-acceleration&lt;nu&gt;) <br>
  <br>
 Because mass in RS is defined in terms of space and time, and in other <br>
 systems it is an independent unit, we derive hybrid conversion factors:
<br>
  <br>
 Define M the mass in amu of a natural unit of mass. <br>
 M = 1 + 1/(128*(1+2/9)) = 1.00639205 amu. <br>
  <br>
 The term (128*(1+2/9)) = 156.4444&nbsp; is called the inter-regional ratio in 
RS, <br>
 and is derived from the degrees of freedom the motions constituting <br>
 an atom have. <br>
  <br>
 &lt;cs&gt; means unit expressed in&nbsp; cm and seconds. <br>
 &lt;nu&gt; means natural units. <br>
 &lt;gram&gt; means unit mass expressed in grams. <br>
  <br>
 1 mole of natural mass units = M&nbsp; grams&lt;cgs&gt; <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; M/N (unit-mass&lt;gram&gt;/unit-mass&lt;nu&gt;). <br>
  <br>
 1 natural mass unit in space-time units (sec<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>/cm<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>) is: <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1/c<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> (unit-mass&lt;cs&gt;/unit-mass&lt;nu&gt;)
 <br>
  <br>
 The ratio of unit mass expressed in sec<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>/cm<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> <br>
 to unit mass expressed in grams: <br>
  <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; N/Mc<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> (unit-mass&lt;cs&gt;/unit-mass&lt;gram&gt;)
 <br>
  <br>
  <br>
 Using Force=ma, we must use the hybrid mass conversion factor to get the
<br>
 ratio Force&lt;nu&gt;/dyne: <br>
  <br>
 dyne = unit-mass&lt;cgs&gt; unit-acceleration&lt;cgs&gt; <br>
 F&lt;nu&gt; = unit-mass&lt;nu&gt; unit-acceleration&lt;nu&gt; =&nbsp; t/s<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> = (1/2R)/(c/2R)<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> 
=  2R/c<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>. <br>
  <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2R/c<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> (unit-force&lt;cs&gt;/unit-force&lt;nu&gt;)
 <br>
  <br>
 dynes = grams&lt;cgs&gt; cm / sec<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 F&lt;nu&gt; = unit-mass&lt;nu&gt; unit-length&lt;nu&gt; / unit-time&lt;nu&gt;^2 
= <br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; t/s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> = (1/2R)/(c/2R)<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> = 2R/c<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>. <br>
  <br>
 dynes = F&lt;nu&gt; M/N(grams&lt;cgs&gt;/unit-mass&lt;nu&gt;) c/2R (cm/unit-length&lt;nu&gt;) 
/ <br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1/(2R))<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>
(sec/unit-time&lt;nu&gt;)<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>. <br>
  <br>
 unit force&lt;cgs&gt; is: <br>
 #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2RcM/N (dynes/unit-force&lt;nu&gt;) <br>
  <br>
 ----- <br>
  <br>
 Now that the conversion factors are defined, we'll work with s, and t <br>
 which are unit-length&lt;nu&gt; and unit-time&lt;nu&gt;. <br>
  <br>
 (unit-force&lt;nu&gt;) = (unit-mass&lt;nu&gt;) * (unit-acceleration&lt;nu&gt;)
 <br>
 t/s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; t<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>/s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
s/t<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 The force of one unit-mass&lt;nu&gt; toward another at unit-length&lt;nu&gt; 
is <br>
 3 * unit-force&lt;nu&gt;. The factor 3 is due to gravity being effective 
in <br>
 three scalar dimensions. <br>
  <br>
 Converting s and t from unity natural units to cm and seconds, we get <br>
  <br>
 (c<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>/2R) sec/cm<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> 
== c<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> unit-mass&lt;cs&gt;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1/2Rc cm/sec<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 The force of m units of mass toward n units of mass at unit-length is <br>
 just mn times the force for one mass unit (unitless m,n). <br>
  <br>
 The force of two masses reduces as the square of the number d of  unit-lengths
 <br>
 separating them (unitless d). <br>
  <br>
 The general force equations are: <br>
  <br>
 F&lt;nu&gt; = G&lt;nu&gt; mn/d<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> (unit-force&lt;nu&gt;); 
where G&lt;nu&gt; = unitless 3, <br>
 and m,n,d are multipliers of natural units. <br>
  <br>
 Converting natural units to cm and seconds: <br>
  <br>
 F(mass&lt;cs&gt; cm/sec<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>)&nbsp; = 3 mn/d<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>&nbsp; unit-mass&lt;cs&gt;&nbsp; cm&lt;nu&gt;/(sec&lt;nu&gt;)<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 Converting mass in space-time units to grams: <br>
  <br>
 F(gram cm/sec<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>) = F&lt;dyne&gt; = <br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 mn/d<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>&nbsp; N/Mc<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> unit-mass&lt;gram&gt;&nbsp; cm&lt;nu&gt;/(sec&lt;nu&gt;)<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 So G&lt;cgs&gt; = 3N/Mc<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> = 6.66559478 E-8 
dyne-cm<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>/g<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>
 <br>
  <br>
 The gravitational constant is 3 times the <br>
 ratio of natural unit mass in space-time units to unit mass expressed in 
 grams. <br>
  <br>
 (Rydberg dropped out, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the <br>
 original post). <br>
 --- <br>
 The above derivation can be extended to electric and magnetic phenomena,
<br>
 as they are the 1 and 2 dimensional equivalents of gravity.: <br>
  <br>
 Electric charge in RS is t/s <br>
 Magnetic pole strength is t<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>/s<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 Coulomb's law of electrostatic attraction is: <br>
  <br>
 F = k Q1 Q2 / d<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 In natural units t/s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> = k (t/s)(t/s)/s<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
 so k is s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>/t = 136670.11 cm<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>/sec. <br>
  <br>
 Coulomb's law of magnetostatics is <br>
  <br>
 F = km M1 M2 / d<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>, where M is t<sup
 class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup>/s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">2</sup> <br>
  <br>
 so km is s<sup class="moz-txt-sup">4</sup>/t<sup class="moz-txt-sup">3</sup> 
= 1.228333 E26 <br>
 __ <br>
 References: <br>
  <br>
 Permittivity, Permeability, and the speed of Light in the Reciprocal System,
 <br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Ronald W. Satz, Reciprocity Autumn, 1988 <br>
  <br>
 Basic Properties of Matter -Dewey B. Larson, ISUS, Inc. 1988. <br>
 <br>
 <br>
 Planck's Constant: &nbsp;(Dr. Ronald Satz)<br>
 <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://www.rsystem.org/rs/satz/constant.htm">http://www.rsystem.org/rs/satz/constant.htm</a><br>
 <br>
 <small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small><small>______________________________________________</small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small></small><br>
 
<p align="center"><font size="+3"> A</font> <font size="+3">N</font><font
 size="+2">EW          </font><font size="+3">D</font><font size="+2">ERIVATION 
OF</font> <font size="+3">P</font><font size="+2">LANCK&#8217;S</font>         
<font size="+3">C</font><font size="+2">ONSTANT</font></p>
         
<p align="justify"> To present-day physical science the numerical value of 
         Planck&#8217;s constant is a mystery: quantum mechanica does not have a
         theoretical method for its calculation. By contrast the Reciprocal 
System          of theory derives the value of all physical constants, including 
Planck&#8217;s          constant, from its fundamental postulates.&nbsp; </p>
         
<p align="justify">Let us now proceed with the new derivation. First, consider 
         conceptually the linear vibration of the photon. The oscillation 
takes          place over one space unit which, simultaneously, is also one 
time unit.          In the material sector of the universe, we define frequency 
to be cycles/sec,          because here it is time that appears to have a 
uniform progression; in          the cosmic sector of the universe, hypothetical 
cosmic observers would          define frequency to be cycles/cm (or some 
such length unit), because there          it is space that would appear to 
have a uniform progression. Actually,          the photon exists at the boundary 
between the two sectors, where both          space and time progress uniformly. 
Here the correct, natural definition          of frequency must be cycles/(cm-sec) 
(or equivalent units). To put it          another way, frequency in the natural 
sense is the number of cycles per          space-time unit. Photons of all 
frequencies can be observed in both sectors,          and the only way that 
this could be possible is if the denominator of          the natural definition 
contains both a space unit and a time unit. This          then causes Planck's 
constant to have the actual dimensions of erg-cm-sec.          However, if 
the dimensions of frequency are assumed to be cycles/sec,          rather 
than cycles/(cm-sec), then the dimensions of Planck&#8217;s constant          are 
erg-sec. Let E be photon energy, h be Planck&#8217;s constant, and          <font
 face="Symbol">&Ouml;</font>be photon frequency. Then, as usual,          we have 
</p>
         
<div align="justify">          
<table width="500" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
 align="center">
            <tbody>
     <tr>
               <td>E=h*<font face="Symbol">&Ouml;</font> </td>
              <td>                       
      <div align="right">(1) </div>
              </td>
            </tr>
             
  </tbody> 
</table>
          <br>
        </div>
         
<p align="justify">In space-time terms, equation (1) is </p>
         
<div align="justify">           
<table width="265" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
 align="center">
            <tbody>
     <tr>
               <td width="16">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="9">&nbsp;</td>
              <td rowspan="5" width="16"><font size="+6">[</font></td>
              <td width="11">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42">                      
      <div align="center">t&sup2;</div>
              </td>
              <td width="11">&nbsp;</td>
              <td rowspan="5" width="15"><font size="+7">]</font></td>
              <td width="145">                       
      <div align="left">&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
              </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="16">                       
      <div align="center">t </div>
              </td>
              <td width="9">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="11">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42">&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</td>
              <td width="11">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="145">&nbsp;&nbsp;1</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="16">&#8212;</td>
              <td width="9">=</td>
              <td rowspan="3" width="11">                       
      <h1>(</h1>
              </td>
              <td width="42">                      
      <div align="center">t/s</div>
              </td>
              <td rowspan="3" width="11">                       
      <h1>)</h1>
              </td>
              <td width="145">&#8212;&#8212;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(2)</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="16">s</td>
              <td width="9">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42">&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</td>
              <td width="145">                       
      <div align="left">s * t</div>
              </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="16">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="9">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42">                      
      <div align="center">t/s</div>
              </td>
              <td width="145">&nbsp;</td>
            </tr>
             
  </tbody> 
</table>
          <br>
        </div>
         
<p align="justify"> In the cgs system of units, equation (1) is </p>
         
<div align="justify">           
<table width="265" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
 align="center">
            <tbody>
     <tr>
               <td width="40">&nbsp;</td>
              <td rowspan="5" width="16"><font size="+6">[</font></td>
              <td rowspan="2" width="11">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42">                      
      <div align="center">sec&sup2;</div>
              </td>
              <td rowspan="2" width="12">&nbsp;</td>
              <td rowspan="5" width="14"><font size="+7">]</font></td>
              <td width="130">&nbsp;</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="40" height="15">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42" height="15">&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</td>
              <td width="130" height="15">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="40" height="25">&nbsp;erg =</td>
              <td rowspan="3" width="11">                       
      <h1>(</h1>
              </td>
              <td width="42" height="25">sec/cm</td>
              <td rowspan="3" width="12">                       
      <h1>)</h1>
              </td>
              <td width="130" height="25">&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;&#8212;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;             
  (3)</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="40" height="16">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42" height="16">&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</td>
              <td width="130" height="16">cm * sec</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="40">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="42">                      
      <div align="center">erg</div>
              </td>
              <td width="130">&nbsp;</td>
            </tr>
             
  </tbody> 
</table>
          <br>
        </div>
         
<p align="justify">Observe, in both cases, the dimensional consistency. Since 
         the oscillation of the photon takes place with in a unit of space-time, 
         the interregional ratio must be contained within Planck&#8217;s constant. 
         With this factor and the dimensional information from above, Planck&#8217;s 
         constant is </p>
         
<div align="justify">           
<table width="178" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
 align="center">
            <tbody>
     <tr>
               <td width="21">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="69">                       
      <div align="center">1</div>
              </td>
              <td width="19">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="58">                       
      <div align="center">t&sup2;<sub><font size="-2">0</font></sub></div>
              </td>
              <td rowspan="2">                             <br>
       </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="21">                       
      <div align="center">h= </div>
              </td>
              <td width="69">                       
      <div align="center">&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</div>
              </td>
              <td width="19">                       
      <div align="center">*</div>
              </td>
              <td width="58">&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td rowspan="3" height="44">&nbsp;</td>
              <td width="69" height="20">156.4444</td>
              <td rowspan="3" height="44" width="19">                   
   
      <h1>&nbsp;(</h1>
              </td>
              <td width="58" height="20">                       
      <div align="center">sec/cm</div>
              </td>
              <td rowspan="3" width="11">                       
      <h1>)</h1>
              </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td rowspan="2">                             <br>
       </td>
              <td width="58">&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
               <td width="58" height="24">                       
      <div align="center">erg</div>
              </td>
            </tr>
             
  </tbody> 
</table>
          <br>
        </div>
         
<p align="justify">where t is the natural unit of time (1.620666 * 10'18 sec).
       </p>
         
<p align="justify">Ref. 3 states that the ratio of (sec/cm)/erg is 2.236066 
         x 10<sup>-8</sup>. This figure is deduced as follows. Dimensionally 
unit          mass is t&sup3;/s&sup3; , or 3.711381 * 10<sup>-32</sup> sec&sup3;/cm&sup3;.   
      Avogadro&#8217;s constant is the number of atoms per gram atomic weight. 
        6.02486 * 10<sup>-23</sup>. The reciprocal of this number, 1.66979 
* 10<sup>-24</sup>,          in grams, is therefore the mass equivalent of 
unit atomic weightz&sup2;.          Thus to convert from the unit sec&sup3;/cm&sup3; to grams
we must divide          by 2.236066 * 10<sup>-8</sup>. From the euprsssion 
E = mc&sup2; we see          that the sa.me conversion factor must apply to energy 
(in ergs) to keep          the equation balanced. (Nehru&sup3; modi ied his equation 
to include secondary          mass; however, his rasulting equation is dimensionally 
incorrsct. Furthermore,          secondary mass varies between the subatoms 
and atoms and so cannot be          a part of the conversion factor). Thus 
the numerical value of Planck&#8217;s          constant is </p>
         
<div align="justify">          
<table width="530" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
            <tbody>
     <tr>
               <td>h = 6.6102662 g 10<sup>-27</sup> erg-sec</td>
              <td>                       
      <div align="right">(5) </div>
              </td>
            </tr>
             
  </tbody> 
</table>
          <br>
        </div>
         
<p align="justify">(when frequency is assumed to have the dimensions cycles/sec).<br>
          This is 99.77% of the egperimental value of 6.6266 * 10<sup>-27</sup> 
         erg-sec. Given the uncertainties involved in the determination of 
Avogadro&#8217;s          constant and the natural unit of time, the result is satisfaetory.
Any          improvement in the accuracy of these values would be reflected
in an improvement          in the accuracy of the calculation of Planck&#8217;s
constant. </p>
         
<p align="justify"><font size="+1">References </font></p>
         
<div align="justify">          
<ol>
  <li>Dewey B. Larson, <i>The Structure of the Physical Universe</i> (Portland, 
             Oregon: North Pacific Pub- lishers, 1969), pp. 117-118. </li>
  <li>Dewey B. Larson, <i>Nothing But Motion</i> (Port- land, Oregon:    
         North Pacific Publishers,1979), pp. 157-168. </li>
  <li>K.V.K. Nehru, &#8220;<i>Theoretical Evaluation of Planck&#8217;s Constant</i>,&#8221; 
             Reciprocity, Vol. XII, No. 3.</li>
</ol>
<br>
______________________<br>
<br>
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.<br>
Scottsdale, Arizona<br>
        </div>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 14:25:35 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <10.2d6d97f2.2b928ca7 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 17:22:31 EST
Subject: Re: Larson's theory of everything     I'm Sorry Your Just not there  
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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            I"M sorry in 1990/91  the Dow Corning Corp. in  Midland MI, Was 
shown operational a new totally different form of Magnetism.   in the form of 
a naturally generated collapsing inter active field propulsion technology  
Witch is just the opposite of what is known  

  Call the Chief Scientist at the Delphi/GM I showed him the dynamics of the 
material that was the power source for the totally self contained system. 
That would fit in a small shoe box and operated at 20,000 Rpm's at the shaft 
after being started with a drill motor.  That is Star Trec   PLEASE your 
boring me with your Stone age level Thinking  theories about magnetism 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; I"M sorry in 1990/91&nbsp; the=20=
Dow Corning Corp. in&nbsp; Midland MI, Was shown operational a new totally d=
ifferent form of Magnetism.&nbsp;&nbsp; in the form of a naturally generated=
 collapsing inter active field propulsion technology&nbsp; Witch is just the=
 opposite of what is known&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Call the Chief Scientist at the Delphi/GM I showed him the dynamics o=
f the material that was the power source for the totally self contained syst=
em. That would fit in a small shoe box and operated at 20,000 Rpm's at the s=
haft after being started with a drill motor.&nbsp; That is Star Trec&nbsp;&n=
bsp; PLEASE your boring me with your Stone age level Thinking&nbsp; theories=
 about magnetism </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 17:58:25 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <50.18f8c04a.2b92bea2 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:55:46 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] A PREDICTION for you ..
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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X-Status: 

   A little prediction for you to pondor the skeptics can make them why can't 
I   THey just spout off  At least i have inside information.  Plus  I know of 
Group of Billionaires that want to make positive changes on the planet and I 
do think we will have a hydrogen economy. Or Hydropgen will go anywhere along 
with all you know about presently.   Remember where you  heard it first.    
Naturally your not going to investigate because that would make to much 
common sense 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 18:36:50 2003
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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:34:52 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]It is time to rock&roll .
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                  You people think that I have been a pain up to now. 
Attempting to wake you up.  To new situations I just sold one of my buildings 
for 400,000 as of next week that solves my problems because I only owe 
145,000 on it. Now I can get the show on the road as far the tech. situations 


Because that is been a deterrent lack of money. I was going to refinance it 
but now I do not have to pay all that closing cost.  Plus the one DEV. dieing 
did not help the situation at all. But the knowledge lived on. 

 And is why I have been working the net to the extent I have been.  I/4 
million cash. Anyone out there ever had that much money in there hand at one 
time. Regarding a business situation.  There is probably a couple I had 
500,000 once My call is 98% cannot not even imagine that.  That is why they 
cannot imagine the technologies. I present.  Because they have no experience 
with situations on that level.       

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<B> You people think that I have been a pain up to now. Attempting to wake=20=
you up.&nbsp; To new situations I just sold one of my buildings for 400,000=20=
as of next week that solves my problems because I only owe 145,000 on it. No=
w I can get the show on the road as far the tech. situations <BR>
<BR>
Because that is been a deterrent lack of money. I was going to refinance it=20=
but now I do not have to pay all that closing cost.&nbsp; Plus the one DEV.=20=
dieing did not help the situation at all. But the knowledge lived on. <BR>
<BR>
 And is why I have been working the net to the extent I have been.&nbsp; I/4=
 million cash. Anyone out there ever had that much money in there hand at on=
e time. Regarding a business situation.&nbsp; There is probably a couple I h=
ad 500,000 once My call is 98% cannot not even imagine that.&nbsp; That is w=
hy they cannot imagine the technologies. I present.&nbsp; Because they have=20=
no experience with situations on that level.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 25 22:48:35 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Betatron Antigravity Doughnut
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:44:26 -0600
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The square root of the ratio of the electrostatic to gravitational force between two
5.5e-28 kg "quarks" at unit separation gives the relativistic time dilation (RTD) of
each "quark":

RTD = [9e9*q^2/(G*5.5e-28^2)]^1/2 = 3.3e18

Thus, independent of relativistically invariant charge q (+/- 1.6e-19 coulombs) there
appears a relativistic "hypocharge" = q/RTD =  4.85e-38 "hypocoulombs".

The total number of quarks in the earth ~ = 1.10e52, thus giving the earth a
gravitational hypocharge (q') of 4.85e-38*1.10e52 = 4.84e14 "hypocoulombs". Thus the
force on a 3-quark proton at the earth's surface:

Fg  =  9e9*3*4.85e-38*4.84e14/(6.38e5)^2 = 1.556e-26 newtons  or  a gravitational mass
of 1.6e-27 kg.

The RTD of the electron is 2.0e21 and it's hypocharge  -q/RTD  ~ =  - 8.0e-41
"hypocoulombs", and strangely it appears to be repelled by the earth's "quarks", yet
attracted by the earth's electrons.

This hypothesis leads to the conclusion drawn from the SR "Twin Paradox" that  the
quarks see electrons that we calculate as moving through a wire at a fraction of a
cm/second as though they are sped up to enormous velocity.

As counterintuitive as it may sound, a betatron with a radius of about 10 meters or
so, with a circling beam of 1.0 Gev electrons (RTD = 2,000) at about 20 milliamperes,
requiring a 3.4 kilogauss magnetic containment field, could "see" the earth's
hypocharge and effect an antigravity force of ~ 100 tonnes.

There's about 20 Megawatts of energy invested in the beam, plus synchrotron radiation
loss, and the magnetic field.

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 21:56:05 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <106.207e90eb.2b92f64e aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 00:53:18 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]Smart people investigate 
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   You mentioned schools working on auto projects reminded me      I stopped 
at UC Davis out side Sacramento in June and Talked to some of the students in 
the Future Truck Lab. The Professor disappeared as soon as I said Why I was  
Stopping which was to talk about new technologies  but the students seemed 
real eager to learn. It is just off I 80  22, 000 Students It is like a small 
town .  

If any one knows the campus they can ask me questions  I have the map of the 
campus you get at the front gate.   If I was not for real  how would I know 
that  I speak of totally new situations  So automatically he is crazy that is 
not possible . Smart people do not jump to conclusions they investigate  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 23:28:46 2003
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 01:26:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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I posted and Jones Breene respondd;

>Thomas,
>
>The Melis and most other H2-algae systems require two adjacent water 
>areas, one is uncovered and has nutrients - it can probably have 
>some salt content but that is unnecessary. The other is covered and 
>immediately adjacent to the first. A pair of artificial lakes, sited 
>in a former desert is ideal. An artificial lake the size of the GSL 
>might produce, as mentioned, 10 trillion liters of H2 yearly, this 
>is 350 billion cu ft of H2. This has the same energy content as 
>about one per cent of ALL the natural gas used in the USA, so to put 
>it another way, it would take 50 lakes this size to substitute for 
>half of the natural gas we currently use every year, but it is 
>totally renewable.

I can't help thinking about the trip I took across Nevada. There are 
vast tracks of land with almost no vegetation. We could build 
pipelines across California to bring in salt water and away we go. 
This just goes to a show what I always say about Coast to Coast AM, 
about 1/2 of it is crap, but the other 1/2 has some real gems in it.

While I'm on a roll, J C is right about the circuit breaker opening 
if you attempt to start too many things together. He misses the point 
that I want to determine the exact amount of energy that the device 
is putting out. There is nothing finer than a water heater to do that.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  1 23:42:10 2003
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 01:40:30 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Larson's theory of everything
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Thanks for that reply Hoyt. I hope that J C will forward this to his Tech.

While most of the mathematics goes over my head. I am impressed with 
Larson's writings on natural philosophy and what the late Frank 
Meyer; who used to have the job that Hoyt has, or used to have, as 
head of ISUS, a Larson advocacy group, told me about the universe 
according to Larson. I'm going to visit the URL's that he posted.

BTW, Hoyt. are you familiar with Bossivert Gaps?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 04:54:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 07:52:26 EST
Subject: Re: You might as well stop sending
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        karn ka9q.net
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I'm in your  bozo file so what .    Actually Phil  many are starting to 
listen who cares about you. Your a piss ant EE with an attitude. Which makes 
you one of my favorite types? Because I can play 4 D mind games with you.  If 
you do not want to evolve that is up yo you. You  were sent situations that  
you knew contained substance because  your responses indicated it because 
your not stupid 

Phil. Your just not knowledgeable of new situations that you should 
understand but are apparently clueless about. And because your closed and 
narrow minded reacted in a very combative manor witch was the incorrect 
reaction. Because the name of the game in life is evolve not stay in the same 
rut. That arrogant know it all types like you Phil put yourselves in. It is 
called a box because of your giant know it all counter productive restrictive 
theory only thinking elitist EGO is why your in it. .

 Witch created a catch 22 situation.  If you were open minded and did not 
have that roadblock I'm supposed to know it all attitude your would have 
investigated before you reacted as you did. Your reactions were compounded by 
the fact that you were being presented the evolutionary futuristic 
information by a non SCI, wanna be Business type. The fact that it is not 
coming from main stream science witch is where you feel  it showed have been 
coming from created a foreboding possibility 

That maybe science had totally missed the boat somewhere along the way and if 
it did the furture looked bleak. Because the situation presenting was not 
going to revile anything because they said demos are all that is necessary to 
provide. And technical explanations were not going to be tendered only 
concept ones were. That created a major problem for you because if you did 
Not understand the concept meant your base of knowledge was going to be 
adversely effected 

To the possible point you would totally lose your creditability witch is all 
you have. The smart one would say to themselves well shit happens I cannot 
control  So I better take a look and if it is factual i need to start 
attempting to at least grasp the concept if I have no choice 

Otherwise I will be totally out in the cold And I would be a total fool if I 
let myself stay there. Frank Kelly a PE and I discussed those situations when 
he called me. Now that is one high end very sharp PE. Which reminds me I know 
he was in-between jobs.  I would think he may be going to the SAE? If not I 
can get him press passes. He is one I would want on My team.  Phil i would 
not employ you to be the mail boy you would screw that up.  He made fools out 
you people on the what he called The Flat Earth group instead of the free 
energy group Eric I'm not sure if I have his Address do you have it       

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 06:42:18 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 09:40:20 EST
Subject: Re: Larson's theory of everything    Plus some NEW ones 
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  TOM  I all ready sent the theories on for review. Wayne Cochran  before he 
died had done extensive far reaching, especially into the past. Where he 
found many answers along with investigating the best from Quantum mechanics, 
the three fold unified theory and string and super theories.

Witch enable him to write many totally new chapters of physics that will 
replace the vast majority of what is understood now. Naturally when I present 
those situations using poor writing skills  I'm considered a total crazy 
witch I agree with but that responce comes with the territory,  when it is 
attempted in a non scientific manor. 

Witch there is a reason for because that approach perplexes the hell out of 
people. Now you know the reason why it is presented in that manor. Because 
that is how I create fun by playing games with peoples minds.  So I'm sick 
and should be locked up somewhere,   what else is NEW ?     

Along with writing new evolutionary physics and conducting Scientific and 
exotic science fiction level futuristic, experimental research since he was a 
teenager.  He Was able to produced totally mind boggling as the International 
film maker said when he was here from Melbourne, operational not theoretical 
technologies. 

If so he was probably the brightest mind on this planet that was at possibly 
a 60 Th. century level. That possibly equaled and in many cases  possibly 
exceeded the greatest of them all Nicola Tesla who was also at least 35 
century's ahead of his time.  

That vast knowledge has now all been passed on and in time could possibly 
become. One of if not the most important body's of work ever complied in 
recorded history. That may produce the bases for an entire new age basically 
unimagined at this point in history.  

And also could possibly reconstruct a great deal of the vast knowledge that 
was lost about 2500 years ago, witch the majority of we have never regained.  
When the great library in Alexandria was burned. That is the level your 
confronted with here and I care less if you believe that or not.  That is 
Enough Pontificating from me 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;<B> TOM&nbsp; I all=
 ready sent the theories on for review. Wayne Cochran&nbsp; before he died h=
ad done extensive far reaching, especially into the past. Where he found man=
y answers along with investigating the best from Quantum mechanics, the thre=
e fold unified theory and string and super theories.<BR>
<BR>
Witch enable him to write many totally new chapters of physics that will rep=
lace the vast majority of what is understood now. Naturally when I present t=
hose situations using poor writing skills&nbsp; I'm considered a total crazy=
 witch I agree with but that responce comes with the territory,&nbsp; when i=
t is attempted in a non scientific manor. <BR>
<BR>
Witch there is a reason for because that approach perplexes the hell out of=20=
people. Now you know the reason why it is presented in that manor. Because t=
hat is how I create fun by playing games with peoples minds.&nbsp; So I'm si=
ck and should be locked up somewhere,&nbsp;&nbsp; what else is NEW ?&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Along with writing new evolutionary physics and conducting Scientific and ex=
otic science fiction level futuristic, experimental research since he was a=20=
teenager.&nbsp; He Was able to produced totally mind boggling as the Interna=
tional film maker said when he was here from Melbourne, operational not theo=
retical technologies. <BR>
<BR>
If so he was probably the brightest mind on this planet that was at possibly=
 a 60 Th. century level. That possibly equaled and in many cases&nbsp; possi=
bly exceeded the greatest of them all Nicola Tesla who was also at least 35=20=
century's ahead of his time.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That vast knowledge has now all been passed on and in time could possibly be=
come. One of if not the most important body's of work ever complied in recor=
ded history. That may produce the bases for an entire new age basically unim=
agined at this point in history.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
And also could possibly reconstruct a great deal of the vast knowledge that=20=
was lost about 2500 years ago, witch the majority of we have never regained.=
&nbsp; When the great library in Alexandria was burned. That is the level yo=
ur confronted with here and I care less if you believe that or not.&nbsp; Th=
at is Enough Pontificating from me </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1a2.11475668.2b9387ab aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 11:13:31 EST
Subject: The 50 million dollar Tech. laughed at the Water heater idea 
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In a message dated 3/2/03 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> I can't help thinking about the trip I took across Nevada. There are 
> vast tracks of land with almost no vegetation. We could build 
> pipelines across California to bring in salt water and away we go. 
> This just goes to a show what I always say about Coast to Coast AM, 
> about 1/2 of it is crap, but the other 1/2 has some real gems in it.
> 
> While I'm on a roll, J C is right about the circuit breaker opening 
> if you attempt to start too many things together. He misses the point 
> that I want to determine the exact amount of energy that the device 
> is putting out. There is nothing finer than a water heater to do that.
> 
>     REPLY   WELL I MAY KNOW what I'm talking about.       YOU DO NOT GET IT 
  there is nothing being created by the device except 3 phase from 110 V or 
220 V and  is where you people keep missing it totally  NOW listen for once 
witch I do not think is possible.  The device converts current in a totally 
new way WHEREAS the now wasted kinetic energy (frequency's) are NOW 
conducting the vast majority of the demanded by the equipment work load  

NOW The present aspects that are performing the demanded work loads are only 
conducting a fraction of the work load.  YOU have ZERO math to even begin to 
relate to that. That I know of.   When Eric Kreig  suggested the water heater 
 The Tech center laughed at it. Because they are not theory based and can 
comprehend the real world witch apparently you  cannot. With that cluster 
your know what complicated hydrogen idea. I was just in Nevada Also but I was 
going 180 MPH witch is something else I do not think you can relate to 
either.   

Infinite energy tested the normal way as it is done in the real world.  They 
did use not some cluster you know complicated Ph.D's theory idea. Who 
probably  has zero hands on experence. SO the question is HOW in the hell 
cound he be qualified to make a judgemet like that. THE answer is he is not . 
He just thinks he is .    WELL I'm think I'm the King of England.  GIVE ME A 
BREAK PLEASE  I would say Infinite energy  knows a tad more than you 
apparently do. Considering there an international known SCi. Pub. 

 Tell us who you are.and we will compare the two. Please why don't you 
actually make an attempt to investigate something you apparently know 
absolute ZERO about before you pass judgment. NO WE could not have that 
happening because that would may actually make some common sense. Wouldn't 
it. 

YOUR basically wasting your time attempting to compete with the level of 
knowledge your being confronted with. If so it maybe  wise to  learn  from 
it,  while you have the chance to. Because in the near future all you will 
are visual  demos.  ???????????????/      
   
 Now i will be called the bad guy for calling you on the Mat for your glaring 
easy to see ignorance. Because i questioned your judgment witch you cannot 
justify that I know to the point that it makes one lick of sense. can  
you?????/

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/2/03=
 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I can't help thinking about the=
 trip I took across Nevada. There are <BR>
vast tracks of land with almost no vegetation. We could build <BR>
pipelines across California to bring in salt water and away we go. <BR>
This just goes to a show what I always say about Coast to Coast AM, <BR>
about 1/2 of it is crap, but the other 1/2 has some real gems in it.<BR>
<BR>
While I'm on a roll, J C is right about the circuit breaker opening <BR>
if you attempt to start too many things together. He misses the point <BR>
that I want to determine the exact amount of energy that the device <BR>
is putting out. There is nothing finer than a water heater to do that.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; WELL I MAY KNOW what I'=
m talking about.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU DO NOT GET IT&nbsp;=
&nbsp; there is nothing being created by the device except 3 phase from 110=20=
V or 220 V and&nbsp; is where you people keep missing it totally&nbsp; NOW l=
isten for once witch I do not think is possible.&nbsp; The device converts c=
urrent in a totally new way WHEREAS the now wasted kinetic energy (frequency=
's) are NOW conducting the vast majority of the demanded by the equipment wo=
rk load&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
NOW The present aspects that are performing the demanded work loads are only=
 conducting a fraction of the work load.&nbsp; YOU have ZERO math to even be=
gin to relate to that. That I know of.&nbsp;&nbsp; When Eric Kreig&nbsp; sug=
gested the water heater&nbsp; The Tech center laughed at it. Because they ar=
e not theory based and can comprehend the real world witch apparently you&nb=
sp; cannot. With that cluster your know what complicated hydrogen idea. I wa=
s just in Nevada Also but I was going 180 MPH witch is something else I do n=
ot think you can relate to either.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Infinite energy tested the normal way as it is done in the real world.&nbsp;=
 They did use not some cluster you know complicated Ph.D's theory idea. Who=20=
probably&nbsp; has zero hands on experence. SO the question is HOW in the he=
ll cound he be qualified to make a judgemet like that. THE answer is he is n=
ot . He just thinks he is .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WELL I'm think I'm the King of=
 England.&nbsp; GIVE ME A BREAK PLEASE&nbsp; I would say Infinite energy&nbs=
p; knows a tad more than you apparently do. Considering there an internation=
al known SCi. Pub. <BR>
<BR>
 Tell us who you are.and we will compare the two. Please why don't you actua=
lly make an attempt to investigate something you apparently know absolute ZE=
RO about before you pass judgment. NO WE could not have that happening becau=
se that would may actually make some common sense. Wouldn't it. <BR>
<BR>
YOUR basically wasting your time attempting to compete with the level of kno=
wledge your being confronted with. If so it maybe&nbsp; wise to&nbsp; learn&=
nbsp; from it,&nbsp; while you have the chance to. Because in the near futur=
e all you will are visual&nbsp; demos.&nbsp; ???????????????/&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
 Now i will be called the bad guy for calling you on the Mat for your glarin=
g easy to see ignorance. Because i questioned your judgment witch you cannot=
 justify that I know to the point that it makes one lick of sense. can&nbsp;=
 you?????/<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 09:01:18 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1cb.4207e1b.2b939227 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 11:58:15 EST
Subject: Tom Thermo King In Minn Has a demo CD 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
CC: eric voicenet.com, edo@lilorbits.com
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In a message dated 3/2/03 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
            TOM     I just remembered   The Thermo King Corp. On 90 Th. 
Street  in Minneapolis where you live  has a CD with demos on it, of 
operational technologies. You CAN  contact Warren Ophiem he is a M.E.  I left 
it there  in MAY    Before you watch it just forget what you know about 
electrical theory. Or you will be totally lost if you attempt to use it. BTDT 
I have the T shirt to prove it.  

You were talking about coming here, unless your and your friends have 
millions do not waste your time. Unless you want to it is up to you.  You 
mention coast to coast 99% of the people who call in are total goof balls But 
1% are real I know that for a fact. 

Because someone I have known for 4 years called in and described the world 
trade tower distater basically as it happened. A year before it happened and 
after it happened Art Bell played the tape of the call and the guy was 
listening when he did. Figure that one out. With your theories.  

While I'm at it  Tom in a mail to me you said jack you believe anything you 
here on the net that is  what you called crack pot theories.  Then you said 
we would all be saved soon when I guess jesus returns.  And I said where did 
you here that crack pot theory.   THAT told you were one of the 99% goof ball 
types that call in to Coast to Coast                  What does it tell you 
TOM ????   
 

> I can't help thinking about the trip I took across Nevada. There are 
> vast tracks of land with almost no vegetation. We could build 
> pipelines across California to bring in salt water and away we go. 
> This just goes to a show what I always say about Coast to Coast AM, 
> about 1/2 of it is crap, but the other 1/2 has some real gems in it.
> 
> While I'm on a roll, J C is right about the circuit breaker opening 
> if you attempt to start too many things together. He misses the point 
> that I want to determine the exact amount of energy that the device 
> is putting out. There is nothing finer than a water heater to do that.
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/2/03=
 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; TOM&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I just remembered&nbsp;&nbsp; The Thermo King Corp. On=
 90 Th. Street&nbsp; in Minneapolis where you live&nbsp; has a CD with demos=
 on it, of operational technologies. You CAN&nbsp; contact Warren Ophiem he=20=
is a M.E.&nbsp; I left it there&nbsp; in MAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Before you wa=
tch it just forget what you know about electrical theory. Or you will be tot=
ally lost if you attempt to use it. BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it.&nbs=
p; <BR>
<BR>
You were talking about coming here, unless your and your friends have millio=
ns do not waste your time. Unless you want to it is up to you.&nbsp; You men=
tion coast to coast 99% of the people who call in are total goof balls But 1=
% are real I know that for a fact. <BR>
<BR>
Because someone I have known for 4 years called in and described the world t=
rade tower distater basically as it happened. A year before it happened and=20=
after it happened Art Bell played the tape of the call and the guy was liste=
ning when he did. Figure that one out. With your theories.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
While I'm at it&nbsp; Tom in a mail to me you said jack you believe anything=
 you here on the net that is&nbsp; what you called crack pot theories.&nbsp;=
 Then you said we would all be saved soon when I guess jesus returns.&nbsp;=20=
And I said where did you here that crack pot theory.&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT told y=
ou were one of the 99% goof ball types that call in to Coast to Coast&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What does it tell you TOM ????&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
=20
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I can't help thinking about the=
 trip I took across Nevada. There are <BR>
vast tracks of land with almost no vegetation. We could build <BR>
pipelines across California to bring in salt water and away we go. <BR>
This just goes to a show what I always say about Coast to Coast AM, <BR>
about 1/2 of it is crap, but the other 1/2 has some real gems in it.<BR>
<BR>
While I'm on a roll, J C is right about the circuit breaker opening <BR>
if you attempt to start too many things together. He misses the point <BR>
that I want to determine the exact amount of energy that the device <BR>
is putting out. There is nothing finer than a water heater to do that.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1cb.4207e1b.2b939227_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 09:19:07 2003
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Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 09:14:16 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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Fred,

Very interesting for cross-comparison: 

You said: "I vote for fleets of seagoing "super-barges" floated near the tropics that can grow (hydroponics?) and process, fast-growing biomass "Canes/Bamboo) into storable fuels.

There is a species of "false bamboo" that grows in the southeast and southwest, that I had in my yard, that I had to cut every year, that was tested at a local ag experiment lab that was consistently producing over 40 tons (dried to 15% moisture) per acre-year."

I was trying to compare that in terms of BTUs with the H2-algae process. 

The figures I have from web/ref are: 
Solid fuels (Btu per lb): coal 12,000 to 15,000; lignite 6000 to 7400; coke 12,400; dry wood 8500. Liquid fuels: alcohol 11,000; fuel oil 19,000; gasoline 20,750; kerosene 19,800. Gaseous fuels (Btu per cu ft): acetylene 1480; blast-furnace gas 93; carbon monoxide 317; coke-oven gas or coal gas about 600; hydrogen 319; natural gas 1050 to 2220; oil gas 516; producer gas 136.

If this is accurate, and the bamboo biomass is equal to dry wood, then the dried biomass gives about 600 million BTU per acre-year. For comparison purposes, the average American uses 50 million BTU for automotive transport and 75 million for all other needs including food, or 125 million total, so this acre could support the total energy needs of about 5 people.

Here is what comes out as it stands now (no improvement in the H2-algae process)- it works out to about 2 liters of H2 or .07 cu ft of H2 yearly per gallon of culture during daylight hours.  An acre of culture about 4 feet deep would be equivalent to a million gallons, therefore you cold get about 70,000 cu ft of H2 per acre equivalent.

If a cubic foot of hydrogen gives 319 BTU this works out to about 22 million BTU per acre, based upon Melis' present strains of algae. He says he expects a factor of ten improvement but even then it would be only a third of the BTU per acre of the biomass figures you are quoting.

Therefore, it looks like you are correct in that if you can get 40 tons of biomass per acre with no added energy input, other than solar, (no fertilizer) the the BTU from biomass is the way to go. Is that figure of  40 tons of biomass per acre sustainable over the long run in the USA?

An average homeowner ought to be able to supply his family's yearly needs with an acre of that bamboo, but given my luck with tomatoes, I would rather have a 3 acre pond of algae culture.

BTW, some independent-minded folks seem to be going off-the-grid with biomass, here is a reference for a Japanese "BIOWATT" unit developed by Sunpower Inc. This Home Power Biowatt product is a biomass-fueled Stirling Engine System consisting of a biomass combustion chamber, Stirling engine, linear generator, control system and fuel feeding system, etc. 
http://www.stirling-engine.com/1kw%20Home%20Power01.htm

If you use your imagination, it wouldn't be too far out to see a prefected version of this kind of thing built into a lot of homes from the start, in place of a gas furnace, for instance. Once again, the Japanese seem to be showing us some unique ways to achieve energy independence...

Jones

Energy Consumption figures

In the United States a typical automobile may be driven 10,000 miles per year. If the mileage is 25 miles per gallon of gasoline then 400 gallons of fuel are required. At 125,000 Btu per gallon this mode of transportation requires 50 million Btu per year for operation. An estimated 1997 fuel cost of $1.50 per gallon values this energy at $750. 

The typical U.S. home consumes an average of 50,000 Btu per hour during the heating season. If there are 3000 hours in a heating season then 150 million Btu are consumed for the year. At $1 per therm (100,000 Btu) this energy is valued at $1500. 

In addition, home electrical energy consumption averages a 1000 kiloWatt-hour(kWh) per month for a total of over 10,000 kWh per year. If the cost is $0.10 per kWh then the yearly cost is $1000. At 33% generating efficiency this translates into another 100 million Btu per year.
 
The total annual energy usage per home is the sum of the above energies giving a total of 300 million Btu per year per home. If the United States contains 50 million households then the total U.S. residential energy usage may be 15 quadrillion Btu per year. 

Per capita household energy usage can be calculated assuming that 200 million people live in the 50 million households. This results in 75 million Btu per person at an approximate household value of over $3000. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 11:12:04 2003
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Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: CO2 Sequestering By Biomass/Algae

For starters Jones, if Hydrogenation of Coal can economically produce hydrocarbon
fuels, so can
the easier process of Hydrogenation of Biomass:

http://www.mpi-muelheim.mpg.de/kofo/institut/arbeitsbereiche/haenel/english/haenel_for
sch2_e.html

Secondly the 40 ton/acre (~ 2 lbs/ft^2) volunteer bamboo in the arid southwest is
produced in a 90 day growing season, or less)
(I burned the stand in early March and cut the "poles" which were ~ 10 ft tall and 1
1/4 inch diameter at the base, and the new shoots ~ 1 1/4 dia were 2 feet high by late
May) it should do upwards of 200 tons/acre-year in the tropics. The Houston, Texas
area of the Gulf of Mexico is a good enough location.  :-)

Most likely these were the type of high growth
plant species that fed the dinosaurs in the "carboniferous age". Livestock love the
volunteer bamboo, and would break fences to get to it, if they could reach it with
their tongues..

There is no reason why the "Super Barges" couldn't be used for algae farming also. It
a lot more energy efficient to
take a barge to the ocean (or the Great Salt Lake) where Reverse Osmosis can be used
for desalinization, than pumping the water from the ocean up a high lift head for
interbasin water transfer.

This also gives you the option of onboard Wind and/or PV solar power for barge
propulsion and processing power. It doesn't take a very large water propeller
(electrically-powered) by a much larger windmill to maneuver a barge,does it?

Regards,

Frederick


> Fred,
>
> Very interesting for cross-comparison:
>
> You said: "I vote for fleets of seagoing "super-barges" floated near the tropics
that can grow (hydroponics?) and process, fast-growing biomass "Canes/Bamboo) into
storable fuels.
>
> There is a species of "false bamboo" that grows in the southeast and southwest, that
I had in my yard, that I had to cut every year, that was tested at a local ag
experiment lab that was consistently producing over 40 tons (dried to 15% moisture)
per acre-year."
>
> I was trying to compare that in terms of BTUs with the H2-algae process.
>
> The figures I have from web/ref are:
> Solid fuels (Btu per lb): coal 12,000 to 15,000; lignite 6000 to 7400; coke 12,400;
dry wood 8500. Liquid fuels: alcohol 11,000; fuel oil 19,000; gasoline 20,750;
kerosene 19,800. Gaseous fuels (Btu per cu ft): acetylene 1480; blast-furnace gas 93;
carbon monoxide 317; coke-oven gas or coal gas about 600; hydrogen 319; natural gas
1050 to 2220; oil gas 516; producer gas 136.
>
> If this is accurate, and the bamboo biomass is equal to dry wood, then the dried
biomass gives about 600 million BTU per acre-year. For comparison purposes, the
average American uses 50 million BTU for automotive transport and 75 million for all
other needs including food, or 125 million total, so this acre could support the total
energy needs of about 5 people.
>
> Here is what comes out as it stands now (no improvement in the H2-algae process)- it
works out to about 2 liters of H2 or .07 cu ft of H2 yearly per gallon of culture
during daylight hours.  An acre of culture about 4 feet deep would be equivalent to a
million gallons, therefore you cold get about 70,000 cu ft of H2 per acre equivalent.
>
> If a cubic foot of hydrogen gives 319 BTU this works out to about 22 million BTU per
acre, based upon Melis' present strains of algae. He says he expects a factor of ten
improvement but even then it would be only a third of the BTU per acre of the biomass
figures you are quoting.
>
> Therefore, it looks like you are correct in that if you can get 40 tons of biomass
per acre with no added energy input, other than solar, (no fertilizer) the the BTU
from biomass is the way to go. Is that figure of  40 tons of biomass per acre
sustainable over the long run in the USA?
>
> An average homeowner ought to be able to supply his family's yearly needs with an
acre of that bamboo, but given my luck with tomatoes, I would rather have a 3 acre
pond of algae culture.
>
> BTW, some independent-minded folks seem to be going off-the-grid with biomass, here
is a reference for a Japanese "BIOWATT" unit developed by Sunpower Inc. This Home
Power Biowatt product is a biomass-fueled Stirling Engine System consisting of a
biomass combustion chamber, Stirling engine, linear generator, control system and fuel
feeding system, etc.
> http://www.stirling-engine.com/1kw%20Home%20Power01.htm
>
> If you use your imagination, it wouldn't be too far out to see a prefected version
of this kind of thing built into a lot of homes from the start, in place of a gas
furnace, for instance. Once again, the Japanese seem to be showing us some unique ways
to achieve energy independence...
>
> Jones
>
> Energy Consumption figures
>
> In the United States a typical automobile may be driven 10,000 miles per year. If
the mileage is 25 miles per gallon of gasoline then 400 gallons of fuel are required.
At 125,000 Btu per gallon this mode of transportation requires 50 million Btu per year
for operation. An estimated 1997 fuel cost of $1.50 per gallon values this energy at
$750.
>
> The typical U.S. home consumes an average of 50,000 Btu per hour during the heating
season. If there are 3000 hours in a heating season then 150 million Btu are consumed
for the year. At $1 per therm (100,000 Btu) this energy is valued at $1500.
>
> In addition, home electrical energy consumption averages a 1000 kiloWatt-hour(kWh)
per month for a total of over 10,000 kWh per year. If the cost is $0.10 per kWh then
the yearly cost is $1000. At 33% generating efficiency this translates into another
100 million Btu per year.
>
> The total annual energy usage per home is the sum of the above energies giving a
total of 300 million Btu per year per home. If the United States contains 50 million
households then the total U.S. residential energy usage may be 15 quadrillion Btu per
year.
>
> Per capita household energy usage can be calculated assuming that 200 million people
live in the 50 million households. This results in 75 million Btu per person at an
approximate household value of over $3000.
>
>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 07:14:42 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:44:43 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm
>
>Look particularly at the insides of the box, like panel b, where a hydride tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few minutes worth of H2 at household usage rates. How many other inconsistencies can you find?
>
>This is looking like one of the more carefully planned and orchestrated scams in the long history of free energy scams...or else...?
>
>Jones
...or else it may be a carefully worded infringement of Mills' patent. :)


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 13:04:55 2003
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Larson's theory of everything
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Like the TOE, Larson's theme song is probably Maria Muldaur's little =
known classic: "It's Not the Meat, It's the Motion"

Jones


SciFi note: It is provocative to think that each dimension of space also =
has its own dimension of time, unlrelated to 3D time. Does any other =
model of physics supply a different dimension of time for higher (or =
lower) dimensions? Of course, one implication is that if FTL particles =
really do exist in some higher dimension, (big IF) then *time* for that =
dimension would be effectively reversed. This is a plausible approach =
for more believable SciFi time-travel stories - but unfortunately only =
massless, i.e. *spiritual* entities need apply for that kind of =
adventure.
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Like the TOE, Larson's theme song is probably Maria Muldaur's =
little known=20
classic: "It's Not the Meat, It's the Motion"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>SciFi note: It is provocative to think that&nbsp;each dimension of =
space=20
also has its own dimension of time, unlrelated to 3D time.&nbsp;Does any =

other&nbsp;model of physics supply a different dimension of time for =
higher (or=20
lower) dimensions? Of course, one implication is that if FTL particles =
really do=20
exist in some higher dimension, (big IF) then *time* for that dimension =
would be=20
effectively reversed. This is&nbsp;a plausible approach for more =
believable=20
SciFi time-travel stories - but unfortunately only massless, i.e. =
*spiritual*=20
entities need apply for that kind of adventure.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 13:31:27 2003
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Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 13:24:57 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics
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Robin, you said,

> ...or else it may be a carefully worded infringement of Mills' patent. :)


Well, yes but it's not exactly Mills' patent, is it? 

A couple of months ago I posted the following to a slashdot journal that has been following Genesis, and to vortex. From the January posts:

1) if Genesis is for real (very doubtful) and 

2) if they have developed an OU water-splitting hydrogen generator, combined with a fuel cell and

3) if they are co-opting or modifying any of Blacklight Power's (BLP) hydrino technology, 

then it is not the latest hydrino technology which they are using, the microwave water plasma. There is an earlier BLP technique that actually fits the Genesis claims, better PLUS it is not exactly owned by BLP, ref:

Thermacore Patent   5,273,635   December 28, 1993  

Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA)

Electrolytic heater-    Abstract

"A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte. "

It's 10 years old now. It doesn't mention producing or utilizing hydrogen in a fuel cell or "water-splitting" - like the Genesis cell but if anyone sees any of those names in regard to GWE or Genesis World Energy (Gernert, Shaubach or Ernst) then it is fair to assume that the basic patent has been modified to become the basis of the GWE gcell. 

Thermacore International is now a subsidiary of Modine Manufacturing Company, and a global supplier of thermal engineering products for many industries. With manufacturing locations in Lancaster, Pa in the USA, and overseas in Mexico, the U.K., Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, Thermacore provides B2B manufacturing to other OEMs along with design R&D & manufacturing. It was formerly an independent ultra high-tech outfit, with compounded growth of 40% annually before the manufacturing economy went sour, and more recently it was acquired by Modine.

Randell Mills and first research facility were also located in Lancaster in the early 1990s, and there he early-on teamed up with Thermacore to develop a "wet" electrolytic hydrino cell using potassium catalyst with phenomenal, but little publicized, characteristics. 

The original patent for the wet cell, in fact, is owned by Thermacore, not BLP, but it seems that there were complicated licensing and NDA agreements highly favorable to BLP- and the partnership soon disintegrated. Mills went on to totally drop the "wet" electrolytic hydrino research in favor of: first, a gas-phase implementation, but now almost exclusively, plasma phase. The microwave driven water plasma is his latest attempt at commercialization and seems more doable - but maybe not in the context of a *hydrogen generator* 

Meanwhile, nobody on the outside really seems to knows what was going on with Thermacore or what their relationship with Mills became after merger with Modine. The only thing that seems clear is that Modine decided not to pursue the technology, perhaps because of onerous pre-existing agreements with BLP. However, it could well be that the wet electrolytic hydrino technology, and perhaps some of the original personnel, did not fit well into the Modine corporate culture, and realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet cell, these R&D folks decided to leave, get funding and do something on their own. 

Perhaps they are some of the "400 visionaries" and perhaps GWE picked them up to focus on the wet hydrino cell (and not the microwave plasma cell), and perhaps GWE then made a major breakthrough, thanks to former Thermacore researchers, but at the same time GWE doesn't want to disclose the connection for reasons related to intellectual property and accusations of corporate theft. 

Here are some very  interesting pdf files from the Mills' site, relating to Thermacore:

http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Final-Report-Nascent-Hydrogen.pdf

Consider this quote from the first paper: "Light water electrolytic experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding example is a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of electrical input. The cell has operated continuously for over one year..." 

For emphasis, let me repeat: THE CELL OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY FOR OVER ONE YEAR. This was prior to the Modine merger. 

Now, remember, this statement is not coming from some fly-by-night self-promoting entrepreneur, not some Stan Meyer, nor even some university professor who is ignorant of manufacturing realities and corporate intrigue - but instead it comes from one of the most well-respected of high-tech firms, a manufacturing firm, and the inventors of the heat-pipe and many other wonderful thermal inventions. 

BUT almost no-one picked up on this announcement at the time, or at best didn't take it very seriously, probably because of the bad-press that the whole field of cold fusion was getting at the time.

Again, if Genesis is for real (almost impossible) then this quote above may be the "smoking gun" pointing to where they obtained, or stole, the basic technology. 

BTW, don't forget, this is all taking place in the back yard of the "Shaws" the New Jersey promoters of GWE...none of whom have science backgrounds and who have pulled a real fast one by setting up another company apparently to sell pumped up stock for GWE but without the Genesis name being involved.

The whole episode is not just fishy, it really stinks...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 13:34:49 2003
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If I read this right, it seems that an increase in ocean depth allows an increase of
Carbon Dioxide Absorption from the Atmosphere, and Whamo, another Ice Age.

http://calspace.ucsd.edu/virtualmuseum/climatechange2/01_1.shtml

Regards,

Frederick



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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics

Jones wrote:
>
>Mills went on to totally drop the "wet" electrolytic hydrino research in favor of:
first, a gas-phase implementation, but now >almost exclusively, plasma phase. The
microwave driven water plasma is his latest attempt at commercialization and seems
>more doable - but maybe not in the context of a *hydrogen generator*
>

If he pursues this route, he will be up against the Abtox Microwave Water Vapor
Sterilizer Patents.  :-)

United States Patent  5,753,196
Inventors:  Martens; Phillip A. (Fremont, CA); Rainwater; David L. (Madison, WI)
Assignee:  AbTox, Inc. (Mundelein, IL)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plasma water vapor sterilizer apparatus


Abstract
An apparatus for plasma sterilization of articles includes a plasma generator, a
sterilizing chamber, and a source of water vapor in fluid communication with the
plasma generator, and may optionally include an autoclave. A method for plasma
sterilization comprises exposing an article to be sterilized to a neutral active
species of a plasma generated from water vapor. The exposure of the article to the
plasma is carried out at reduced pressures and a chamber temperature of less than
about 82.degree. C. for a time period sufficient to effect sterilization.

Regards,

Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 14:10:14 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:06:27 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 02 Mar 2003 13:24:57 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin, you said,
>
>> ...or else it may be a carefully worded infringement of Mills' patent. :)
>
>
>Well, yes but it's not exactly Mills' patent, is it? 

No, not exactly, but I simply meant to imply that it might be hydrino based.
I do now remember reading your former post. Sorry if you feel I was stealing your thunder.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 14:24:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 17:21:39 EST
Subject:  WHAT DOES  LOGIC  TELL YOU  ? 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com, vcrepair@juno.com,
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     APPEARENTLY YOU skeptics  HAVE ZERO    Eric Kreig  you know we have sold 
units?   Why did they buy them?  
     iT WOULD appear they solved a problem and was the best solution to the 
problem wouldn't it ??  Otherwise why didn't they buy some other unit.?? 

I would think the guy who sold them ours and did not take a commissiom for 
doing so  to help us. Wanted them to have the best product there was. Would 
that make sense ??? Why wouldn't he sell them another product that he could 
make money off of?  There was nothing that compared is why. Because there 
power draw factors were drastically  higher?    When are you people going to 
start using logic  ????  I guess they no longer teach that. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 16:26:41 2003
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:23:40 EST
Subject: Re: Eric Kreig no the The fat lady has not sung yet  
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        editor infinite-energy.com
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In a message dated 3/2/03 5:51:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com 
writes:


> Jack,
>  
>   concerning some of these claims:
>  
> Ted could not even get you to change a fuse or agree to proper test 
> conditions.  

      REPLY TED is a VCR repair man Infinite Energy is a national Mag. THey 
did  not mention anything about a fuse what would Ted know more than them .?  
NOTHING as far as I can see. PLUS TED is not allowing for strong surge 
factors AND in the first place there is NO NO  reason to change any fuses 

. HELLO THAT IS A NON ISSUE PERIOD  But he wants to make it one about 
something he knows zero about.  Only a total FOOL would do that.    TED was 
offered a ride to see it. and he declined  I would say the way Infinite 
tested was as it is done. He made every excuss he cold not to come after 
seeing a public demo 
  Some people you showed it to were lunatics and con men, the Infinite Energy 
people didn't feel you had compelling 
> evidence (and they are gullible). Greer is probably one more person who 
> probably thinks you are nuts.
>       REPLY  they verified in there description If you cannot understand it 
>  is not my problem.  Greer is someone I do not need if he wants to control  
> You as usual are making calls without investigating  Kreig only total fools 
> do that  Gene mallove a MIT Ph.D is not care to be called gullible by a 
> piss ant cube boy EE  like you kreig  YOU reply is moronic   
> you have been promising a unambigous demo for months now.
>      REPLY  you know the DEV. died and was sick for months  before that. 
> THat could possiby cause set backs  wouldn't you think? 
> Eric
> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/2/03=
 5:51:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack,</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; concerning some of th=
ese claims:</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Ted could not even get you t=
o change a fuse or agree to proper test conditions.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLO=
R=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; REPLY TED is a VCR repair man Infinite Energy is a national Mag. THey did=
&nbsp; not mention anything about a fuse what would Ted know more than them=20=
.?&nbsp; NOTHING as far as I can see. PLUS TED is not allowing for strong su=
rge factors AND in the first place there is NO NO&nbsp; reason to change any=
 fuses <BR>
<BR>
. HELLO THAT IS A NON ISSUE PERIOD&nbsp; But he wants to make it one about s=
omething he knows zero about.&nbsp; Only a total FOOL would do that.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; TED was offered a ride to see it. and he declined&nbsp; I would s=
ay the way Infinite tested was as it is done. He made every excuss he cold n=
ot to come after seeing a public demo </B><BR>
&nbsp; Some people you showed it to were lunatics and con men, the Infinite=20=
Energy people didn't feel you had compelling </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=
 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">evidence (and they are gullible). Greer is probably one mor=
e person who probably thinks you are nuts.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; they verified in there descrip=
tion If you cannot understand it&nbsp; is not my problem.&nbsp; Greer is som=
eone I do not need if he wants to control&nbsp; You as usual are making call=
s without investigating&nbsp; Kreig only total fools do that&nbsp; Gene mall=
ove a MIT Ph.D is not care to be called gullible by a piss ant cube boy EE&n=
bsp; like you kreig&nbsp; YOU reply is moronic&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">you have been promising a un=
ambigous demo for months now.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGR=
OUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; you know the DEV. died and was sick=20=
for months&nbsp; before that. THat could possiby cause set backs&nbsp; would=
n't you think? <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Eric</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#=
000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FA=
CE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">----- Original Message ----- <B=
R>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 18:57:44 2003
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Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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       TOM    You cannot generate them you can convert or use them   Steven 
Greer is converting them with the device he has and that is radiant energy 
and that device will be radioactive in 2500 years. Tesla was converting them 
in 31 with the car  from his 1899 notes. I have that technology  on tape from 
20 months ago. 

 THe same as Tom will see  An advanced situation unequaled on this planet  
evolutionary new technology if he gets a CD from the Thermo King Corp. in his 
home town. That is a complete diffent process of converting A/C current that 
dramatic reduces draw factors for any given operational situation.  THat 
science does not have clue one how to understand  and we are not going to 
even manuf. because to us it is a tinker toy   

   WE understand the vast majortity of Teslas  situations and can demo 
dramatic situations that science cannot understand . But we are not  one of 
them or do we  want to be one of them  What for they cannot do anything for 
us. That I know of . THey do not want to discuss it because they may not be 
able to understand it and what would that do to there creditability. 

If they were smart witch appears they are not because of there arrogance. 
They would at least attempt to keep from being made total fools of,  but 
appearently that is what they want us to do . In that case so be it. It has 
to dishearting having what you thought was your totally secure little world 
basically demolished. By someone that did not have to obtain a formal edu . 
to be able to accomplish that. I have attempted to give people the 
opportunity to evolve but they think they are totally secure and nothing is 
going to effect them  That action does not show any wisdom       

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<B> TOM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You cannot generate them you can conver=
t or use them&nbsp;&nbsp; Steven Greer is converting them with the device he=
 has and that is radiant energy and that device will be radioactive in 2500=20=
years. Tesla was converting them in 31 with the car&nbsp; from his 1899 note=
s. I have that technology&nbsp; on tape from 20 months ago. <BR>
<BR>
 THe same as Tom will see&nbsp; An advanced situation unequaled on this plan=
et&nbsp; evolutionary new technology if he gets a CD from the Thermo King Co=
rp. in his home town. That is a complete diffent process of converting A/C c=
urrent that dramatic reduces draw factors for any given operational situatio=
n.&nbsp; THat science does not have clue one how to understand&nbsp; and we=20=
are not going to even manuf. because to us it is a tinker toy&nbsp;&nbsp; <B=
R>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; WE understand the vast majortity of Teslas&nbsp; situations and=
 can demo dramatic situations that science cannot understand . But we are no=
t&nbsp; one of them or do we&nbsp; want to be one of them&nbsp; What for the=
y cannot do anything for us. That I know of . THey do not want to discuss it=
 because they may not be able to understand it and what would that do to the=
re creditability. <BR>
<BR>
If they were smart witch appears they are not because of there arrogance. Th=
ey would at least attempt to keep from being made total fools of,&nbsp; but=20=
appearently that is what they want us to do . In that case so be it. It has=20=
to dishearting having what you thought was your totally secure little world=20=
basically demolished. By someone that did not have to obtain a formal edu .=20=
to be able to accomplish that. I have attempted to give people the opportuni=
ty to evolve but they think they are totally secure and nothing is going to=20=
effect them&nbsp; That action does not show any wisdom&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 20:28:59 2003
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From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Dear Jones,

I approach to dimension problem from another side. Instead of starting of continuum is formed by specific dimensions and then determine how the matter/energy (shortly matter) forms inherit these dimensions, I start by thinking dimensions are property of the matter/energy, their behavior or expression. Continuum we observe therefore is direct expression of the matter.

Although Maxwell equations (ME)not cover all electromagnetic phenomena, they provide a good base to describe x,y,z and t dimensions. For an ultimate set of equations for all physical phenomena, it will be possible to state these equations provide full  definition of dimensions which enter the equations in similar way to M.E.

I just figured a possibility, maybe about ME on this context. In ME, dimensions x,y,z,t are assumed be Euclidean. Although there should be non-Euclidean solutions of these equations, it would be interesting to allow the local metrics be defined and be changed dynamically by the equations itself. This would allow all kind non-linearities.

* * *

I think the main problem about dimensions is caused by our direct perception of them, which lead us to think they constitute the empty continuum hosting the physical world. Thinking so, we ignore the fact that nothing than unphysical pure geometrical objects, and their dynamics can be defined based on dimensions. Historically it is proved that physics based on our perceived dimensions did advanced well. As origin of dimensions is not understood, existence of dimensions and their numbers are tied to anthropic principles,
lead to very poor understanding of the universe, and lead to obscure concepts about time, like arrow of time, time machine or condition leading to violation of casualty.

According my approach, vacuum or void is not a physical entity. It have no property. Actually a true void can not exist in a continuum determined by the property of the matter.

On the other hand, the continuum hypothesized to born by the Big Bang can be still dominated by primordial fields or forces which determine its character and dimensionality.

If this is the case, it would be very interesting that two extreme scale of physical world, one in Universe scale other in quantum scale interacts but not in our scale. Great for all kind of speculations and free energy.

> Jones Beene wrote:
> 
> Like the TOE, Larson's theme song is probably Maria Muldaur's little known classic: "It's Not the Meat, It's the Motion"
> 
> Jones
> 
> 
> SciFi note: It is provocative to think that each dimension of space also has its own dimension of time, unlrelated to 3D time. Does any other model of physics supply a different dimension of time for higher (or lower) dimensions? Of course, one implication is that if FTL particles really do exist in some higher dimension, (big IF) then *time* for that dimension would be effectively reversed. This is a plausible approach for more believable SciFi time-travel stories - but unfortunately only massless, i.e. *spiritual* entities need apply for that kind of adventure.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  2 22:40:10 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Towards a Theory of Everything
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I've got to hand it to you Jack, you've starting to sound sane. Now 
if you can just learn the difference between witch and which.

I would like to call your Tech's attention to Robert Cook's Death of 
Rocketry, see www.forceborne.com . If you can find a first edition, 
other wise contact him and encourage him to print a second edition.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 02:01:18 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Tom Thermo King In Minn Has a demo CD
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>In a message dated 3/2/03 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
>temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
>             TOM     I just remembered   The Thermo King Corp. On 90 
>Th. Street  in Minneapolis where you live  has a CD with demos on 
>it, of operational technologies. You CAN  contact Warren Ophiem he 
>is a M.E.  I left it there  in MAY    Before you watch it just 
>forget what you know about electrical theory. Or you will be totally 
>lost if you attempt to use it. BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it. 

Warren used to come to MN Tesla Society meetings. I'm disappointed 
that he didn't contact us about this. Do you have an email address, 
or other contact information?

>
>You were talking about coming here, unless your and your friends 
>have millions do not waste your time. Unless you want to it is up to 
>you.  You mention coast to coast 99% of the people who call in are 
>total goof balls But 1% are real I know that for a fact.

The man who is interested in driving out says that he has millions 
available. As for me, I want to make those measurements, so that I 
can put this to rest, once and for all.

  As far as Coast to Coast, it's way more than 1%. George has lots of 
scientists on there. Then there's Richard C Hoagland, 
www.enterprisemission.com . But I'm not going to argue the matter 
with you.

>
>Because someone I have known for 4 years called in and described the 
>world trade tower distater basically as it happened. A year before 
>it happened and after it happened Art Bell played the tape of the 
>call and the guy was listening when he did. Figure that one out. 
>With your theories. 

Sure, all you had to do was type Twin Towers into a Bible Code 
program. Of course you have to know Hebrew in order to get this to 
work. If you of you people doubt this, purchase a copy of Michael 
Drosnin's Bible Code II. He didn't find these clusters until after 
the event, but the clusters say that the Twin Towers will fall, and 
that an airplane will be involved, A second cluster says that the 
Pentagon will be damaged. A third cluster says that an Eqyptian man, 
the Terrorist Atta, would be involved, A fourth cluster say  that the 
criminal Bin Laudin will be involved.

It has also come to my attention that the El Queda members said that 
they would try to destroy the WTC a second time, and that they would 
use airplanes.

>
>While I'm at it  Tom in a mail to me you said jack you believe 
>anything you here on the net that is  what you called crack pot 
>theories.  Then you said we would all be saved soon when I guess 
>jesus returns.  And I said where did you here that crack pot theory. 
>THAT told you were one of the 99% goof ball types that call in to 
>Coast to Coast                  What does it tell you TOM ????  


I never said that everyone was going to be saved, only those who 
repent of their sins. If you don't like my scenario, then try to save 
your self! It's obvious to me that with all of it's promises, the 
world condition continues to deteriorate.

If you people doubt me, just check out what I found when I did a 
Google search of Parens Patriae, 
http://www.barefootsworld.net/parensp.html
--============_-1165436848==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Tom Thermo King In Minn Has a demo
CD</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">In a message
dated 3/2/03 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<b>&nbsp;
TOM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I just remembered&nbsp;&nbsp; The Thermo
King Corp. On 90 Th. Street&nbsp; in Minneapolis where you live&nbsp;
has a CD with demos on it, of operational technologies. You CAN&nbsp;
contact Warren Ophiem he is a M.E.&nbsp; I left it there&nbsp; in
MAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Before you watch it just forget what you know
about electrical theory. Or you will be totally lost if you attempt to
use it. BTDT I have the T shirt to prove
it.&nbsp;</b></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Warren used to come to MN Tesla Society meetings. I'm
disappointed that he didn't contact us about this. Do you have an
email address, or other contact information?</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><b><br>
You were talking about coming here, unless your and your friends have
millions do not waste your time. Unless you want to it is up to you.&nbsp;
You mention coast to coast 99% of the people who call in are total
goof balls But 1% are real I know that for a
fact.</b></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>The man who is interested in driving out says that he has
millions available. As for me, I want to make those measurements, so
that I can put this to rest, once and for all.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;As far as Coast to Coast, it's way more than 1%. George has
lots of scientists on there. Then there's Richard C Hoagland,
www.enterprisemission.com . But I'm not going to argue the matter with
you.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1"><b><br></b></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><b>Because
someone I have known for 4 years called in and described the world
trade tower distater basically as it happened. A year before it
happened and after it happened Art Bell played the tape of the call
and the guy was listening when he did. Figure that one out. With your
theories.&nbsp;</b></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Sure, all you had to do was type Twin Towers into a Bible Code
program. Of course you have to know Hebrew in order to get this to
work. If you of you people doubt this, purchase a copy of Michael
Drosnin's Bible Code II. He didn't find these clusters until after the
event, but the clusters say that the Twin Towers will fall, and that
an airplane will be involved, A second cluster says that the Pentagon
will be damaged. A third cluster says that an Eqyptian man, the
Terrorist Atta, would be involved, A fourth cluster say&nbsp; that the
criminal Bin Laudin will be involved.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>It has also come to my attention that the El Queda members said
that they would try to destroy the WTC a second time, and that they
would use airplanes.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1"><b><br></b></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><b>While I'm
at it&nbsp; Tom in a mail to me you said jack you believe anything you
here on the net that is&nbsp; what you called crack pot theories.&nbsp;
Then you said we would all be saved soon when I guess jesus returns.&nbsp;
And I said where did you here that crack pot theory.&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT
told you were one of the 99% goof ball types that call in to Coast to
Coast&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What does it tell
you TOM ????&nbsp;&nbsp;</b></font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br></font></div>
<div>I never said that everyone was going to be saved, only those who
repent of their sins. If you don't like my scenario, then try to save
your self! It's obvious to me that with all of it's promises, the
world condition continues to deteriorate.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If you people doubt me, just check out what I found when I did a
Google search of Parens Patriae,
http://www.barefootsworld.net/parensp.html</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1165436848==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 04:00:15 2003
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 12:39 AM
Subject: Towards a Theory of Everything


> I've got to hand it to you Jack, you've starting to sound sane. Now 
> if you can just learn the difference between witch and which.

Which witch is which? Their  there now Tom. :-)

FJS 
> I would like to call your Tech's attention to Robert Cook's Death of 
> Rocketry, see www.forceborne.com . If you can find a first edition, 
> other wise contact him and encourage him to print a second edition.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 07:19:07 2003
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From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:03:51 -0600
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All,

The following is taken from a Popular Science article at-

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/hometech/article/0,12543,198279,00.html

" The problem is, powering an electrolysis reaction takes a lot of
electricity. In fact,
with existing equipment, the amount of electricity that could be generated
by a fuel cell
with hydrogen produced by electrolysis is only about half of the electricity
that would
be needed to actually split the hydrogen from water."

Is this a reasonably accurate statement regarding the efficiency being  ~50%
in a system consisting of an electrolysis generation of hydrogen/oxygen
supplying a fuel cell?

Jon

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 08:28:18 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:44:29 -0500
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Hi Jon.

It really depends on how much money you're willing to
spend on the cell, and how much time you have to generate
the hydrogen. Both correlate directly with the efficiency.
In fact, if you're willing to wait long enough, you can
( at least theoretically ) get a few percent overunity
based on the fact that the ambient heat in the cell can
contribute a small amount of energy. I was never able
to achieve a practical ( read that as commercial )
implementation of this, but the fact that it IS possible
should be a stimulus to peoples thinking. If this
thread picks up some interest I'll go back to my
notes and post some of the details as to why this is so.

Anyway, the key is control of the overpotential at
reasonable current densities. Good catalysts exist,
but here you'll be paying a lot of money to make
that cell. I did a lot of work experimenting with
cheap catalysts, as have a battalion of other researchers
over the past 50 years (smile). It's fascinating stuff.

50% is probably a good number to work with for
back of the envelope calculations, about 2 to 2 1/2 volts
per cell will give you a nice flow of hydrogen
using stainless steel electrodes.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: jonfli [mailto:jonfli cox.net]
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:04 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Hydrogen conversion


All,

The following is taken from a Popular Science article at-

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/hometech/article/0,12543,198279,00.html

" The problem is, powering an electrolysis reaction takes a lot of
electricity. In fact,
with existing equipment, the amount of electricity that could be generated
by a fuel cell
with hydrogen produced by electrolysis is only about half of the electricity
that would
be needed to actually split the hydrogen from water."

Is this a reasonably accurate statement regarding the efficiency being  ~50%
in a system consisting of an electrolysis generation of hydrogen/oxygen
supplying a fuel cell?

Jon


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    George      FYI   IF YOU INVESTIGATED  with you do not  you make  
judgments is all  I see from E mails only      Phil Karn is an EE  Who has a 
great deal to lose as far creditability. If we have new totally different 
electrical situations he cannot explain 

Because that is his profession and he is supposed to know and is paid for 
those services.  If this is real his entire profession is totally obsolete. 
He may be ignorant of new situations but he is not stupid.  He is very 
combative instead of being smart and attempting to learn new concepts  witch 
would make real sense. 

That is something he does not appear to have. Because of his apparent giant 
counter productive arrogant know it all Ego That he displayed many times on 
the Free Energy site of Eric Kreig's who is also an in the box thinking  EE . 
  I called him on the mat so to speak for that attitude.  And he did not like 
that at all because his edu told him he knew all there was to know. So he 
felt no one else could measure up to him. 

A professional Eng. who was not only an EE but was an ME and a PE also who 
joined the site for a while and called Phil Karn and ERic Kreig totally Flat 
Earth Thinkers. In Email.  WHAT DOES that tell you. ??? It says they were 
totally closed and narrow minded.  Like the vast majority on Vortex and this 
site.

He had higher end credentials than they did.   That gives him the 
qualifications to judge there actions Plus  He made total fools of them. Plus 
He and I had several conversations on the phone.. Do you want his opinion of 
the Eric Kreig and Phil Karn types.?  I can ask him if I can send you his 
address. I'm real tired of the totally closed and narrow minds I see on these 
very one sided opinionated sites that I will pound nails in so to speak when 
mails like Phil's offer me the opportunity to.  

 I'm not going to the SAE conference until probably WED. Because Belden cable 
is coming here about a new major advancement in Fiber optic Tech. that we are 
attempting to license to someone and The Tech. has to prepare for their 
arrival because he was going with me. to the SAE Conference. They called this 
morning as I was preparing to go to Detroit.      

 Phil  joined this site when Dan a GM Eng. said I had Invaded it so as to 
attempt to discredit me. YOU have to take that into account which you 
apparently do not Which is What is on the line for Him. Witch is basically 
entire EDU. and the viability of his profession.  That is the case here and 
is why 99% of the ENG> and physicists react adversely in regard to something 
on the magnitude of what I presented that colleges have seen visually 
operational.  Not some theory  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Geo=
rge&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FYI&nbsp;&nbsp; IF YOU INVESTIGATED&nbsp;=20=
with you do not&nbsp; you make&nbsp; judgments is all&nbsp; I see from E mai=
ls only&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phil Karn is an EE&nbsp; Who has a gre=
at deal to lose as far creditability. If we have new totally different elect=
rical situations he cannot explain <BR>
<BR>
Because that is his profession and he is supposed to know and is paid for th=
ose services.&nbsp; If this is real his entire profession is totally obsolet=
e. He may be ignorant of new situations but he is not stupid.&nbsp; He is ve=
ry combative instead of being smart and attempting to learn new concepts&nbs=
p; witch would make real sense. <BR>
<BR>
That is something he does not appear to have. Because of his apparent giant=20=
counter productive arrogant know it all Ego That he displayed many times on=20=
the Free Energy site of Eric Kreig's who is also an in the box thinking&nbsp=
; EE .&nbsp;&nbsp; I called him on the mat so to speak for that attitude.&nb=
sp; And he did not like that at all because his edu told him he knew all the=
re was to know. So he felt no one else could measure up to him. <BR>
<BR>
A professional Eng. who was not only an EE but was an ME and a PE also who j=
oined the site for a while and called Phil Karn and ERic Kreig totally Flat=20=
Earth Thinkers. In Email.&nbsp; WHAT DOES that tell you. ??? It says they we=
re totally closed and narrow minded.&nbsp; Like the vast majority on Vortex=20=
and this site.<BR>
<BR>
He had higher end credentials than they did.&nbsp;&nbsp; That gives him the=20=
qualifications to judge there actions Plus&nbsp; He made total fools of them=
. Plus He and I had several conversations on the phone.. Do you want his opi=
nion of the Eric Kreig and Phil Karn types.?&nbsp; I can ask him if I can se=
nd you his address. I'm real tired of the totally closed and narrow minds I=20=
see on these very one sided opinionated sites that I will pound nails in so=20=
to speak when mails like Phil's offer me the opportunity to.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 I'm not going to the SAE conference until probably WED. Because Belden cabl=
e is coming here about a new major advancement in Fiber optic Tech. that we=20=
are attempting to license to someone and The Tech. has to prepare for their=20=
arrival because he was going with me. to the SAE Conference. They called thi=
s morning as I was preparing to go to Detroit.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <BR>
<BR>
 Phil&nbsp; joined this site when Dan a GM Eng. said I had Invaded it so as=20=
to attempt to discredit me. YOU have to take that into account which you app=
arently do not Which is What is on the line for Him. Witch is basically enti=
re EDU. and the viability of his profession.&nbsp; That is the case here and=
 is why 99% of the ENG&gt; and physicists react adversely in regard to somet=
hing on the magnitude of what I presented that colleges have seen visually o=
perational.&nbsp; Not some theory&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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Subject: Fwd: Interesting paper
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Return-Path: <jdickenson orionmobility.com>
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Paper: physics/0302098
From: Dr.Mario Rabinowitz <lrainbow leland.stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:15:53 GMT   (173kb)

Title: No stable gravitationally or electrostatically bound atoms in n-space
  for n > 3
Authors: Mario Rabinowitz
Comments: 6 pages, 0 figures, 0 tables
Subj-class: Atomic Physics; General Physics
\\
  It is demonstrated that for spatial dimensions n > 5, stable gravitational
or
electrostatic atoms cannot be bound by energy constraints. For 3 < n < 6,
the
atoms are only metastable since the finite width of the effective potential
energy barrier permits the orbiting body to tunnel out. Thus both Kaluza
Klein
theory and string theory may be impacted since it appears that the unfurled
higher dimensions of string theory will not permit the existence of
energetically stable atoms. This also has bearing on the search for
deviations
from 1/r^2 of the gravitational force at mm distances. Since the results
here
also apply to the electrostatic force, this implies that such a deviation
must
be smaller than ~ 10^-8 cm, since atoms would be unstable if the curled up
dimensions were larger than this.
\\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/physics/0302098 ,  173kb)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics
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Robin.

I once looked at an electrolyzer that used a hard cavity to save the step
of compressing the H2.  

Two electrodes seated in sleves that fed into collection tubes.  From the
colection tubes H2 and O2 could be drawn out upto about 200 bar So the
size might not matter. 


--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:44:43 -0800:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> 
> >http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/tech_device.htm
> >
> >Look particularly at the insides of the box, like panel b, where a
> hydride tank is shown. That tiny tank wouldn't hold more than a few
> minutes worth of H2 at household usage rates. How many other
> inconsistencies can you find?
> >
> >This is looking like one of the more carefully planned and
> orchestrated scams in the long history of free energy scams...or
> else...?
> >
> >Jones
> ...or else it may be a carefully worded infringement of Mills' patent.
> :)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> R. van Spaandonk
> 
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:06:01 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] "punk scientist'?
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   Leo That is what I consider what you in the box types are.  Thanks for the 
Term I will use it from now on because it fits you boys to the T.  My 
complements to the originator because that action was very creative,  which 
is something I"m NOT accustom to seeing from your types.

 Does anyone else have any as good as that one?  That I can add to my 
repertoire.  If so please forward them because I wish to include them. In My 
up coming book that my publishers think will be a best seller. That is  about 
the demolishing and demise of the current stone wall restrictive, counter 
productive totally ego driven thinking main stream science comm.  I'm 
conducting a survey please indicate if you will purchase a copy when it is 
published. If not why not?      

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Leo That=20=
is what I consider what you in the box types are.&nbsp; Thanks for the Term=20=
I will use it from now on because it fits you boys to the T.&nbsp; My comple=
ments to the originator because that action was very creative,&nbsp; which i=
s something I"m NOT accustom to seeing from your types.<BR>
<BR>
 Does anyone else have any as good as that one?&nbsp; That I can add to my r=
epertoire.&nbsp; If so please forward them because I wish to include them. I=
n My up coming book that my publishers think will be a best seller. That is&=
nbsp; about the demolishing and demise of the current stone wall restrictive=
, counter productive totally ego driven thinking main stream science comm.</=
B>&nbsp; <B>I'm conducting a survey please indicate if you will purchase a c=
opy when it is published. If not why not?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B>=
</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 11:26:13 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:23:12 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling
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> In my opinion the principle problem at this time is lack of enforcement of
> existing rules.

Vortex-L very specifically HAS no anti-namecalling rule.  This issue has
come up over and over in the past, with the result that the regular users
like it this way.  (If this has changed, I'd be happy to give vortex-L the
same anti-namecalling rule I used for all the other forums.)

Rule #2 is there to keep the so-called "skeptical" scoffers from filling
this forum with ridicule and sneering.

VORTEX-L:
  2. NO SNEERING.   Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is
  banned. "Pathological Skepticism" is banned (see the link.)  The tone
  here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
  Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some
  tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in
  disgust.  But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy" claims
  rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board!
  MORE: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt

It is very specifically NOT directed at namecallers.  Instead it's there
to establish what vortex-L is for.      Rule 2 vmore.txt points out that
vortex-L is a "tilted playing field" biased towards Believers and against
Skeptics.  Rule #2 mentions "ad hominem" only as part of the rules against
"skeptic" invasion.  However, if we Believers want to insult each other,
that's NOT a big violation of the community rules... but vortexB is there
for semi-voluntary use as a flame-bucket.

Rule #5 is to prevent thread leakage.  I don't see any.

Rule #6 isn't about alt-sci inventors trolling for investors.  It's there
to stop spammers from joining vortex-L so they can send us email for porno
online casinos, etc.


I handle flagrant namecallers case by case, NOT because they violate some
rule, but because their behavior is disgusting and vortex-L members all
turn against them and want it stopped.  Shall we add an anti-asshole rule?
Or better yet, a rule against newcomers who come in and flood the forum
with messages about just one topic?


> Despite repeated requests to stop doing so, Jack Carey continues to violate
> Rule #2 through disrespectful dialog (monolog?), name calling and other
> forms of ad hominem attack,


The problem as I see it:

   - Mr Carey is a newcomer who is dominating the forum by posting large
     numbers of messages, and they aren't part of various threads, instead
     they are all centered on his own project.   (Same as Newman,
     Whirlpower, lifting body conspiracy, and others which I banned in
     the past.)

   - Mr. Carey fills his messages with namecalling and insults.  He's
     behaving as a classic "internet flamer."

   - He ignores complaints from other users, meaning that he doesn't know
     how to behave properly in an online community.  When many people in
     your neighborhood complain about you, it means that they're trying to
     tell you what type of behavior is approriate there.  Same with
     online communities.   Those who ignore all complaints find themselves
     forced out of the civilized part of town and have to go live in
     USENET, the slums full of garbage where there are no community
     standards.

   - Mr. Carey's project is a trade secret,  so he can't tell us all about
     the details.   Yet the WHOLE POINT of vortex-L is to discuss just
     these details.


So, who on vortex-L still wants to converse with Mr. Carey?   Please
respond.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci



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From: Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com>
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--- JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
>        TOM    You cannot generate them 
I found the previous explanation as a near field
effect to be most informative. Are you saying this is
wrong?  I find the explanation that a 3-d polarization
of EM also indicative of longitudinal effects. When we
turn the inductor in the "wrong" direction, so that
its loops no longer encompass flux change from a
magnetic field, and we are still obtaining a signal
from that flux change, then the windings themselves
are parallel to the movemewnt of magnetic field lines,
and this is not the creation of a longitudinal effect?
I find your conclusions to be in error, longitudinal
field effects seem to be easily creatable, and also
measurable by the ordinary use of an oscilloscope.  We
can also create situations where "no" longitudinal
effects are seen.  This can by shown by procurring a
changing  electric field in space, and turning the
inductor so that the windings are perpendicular to the
changing electric field. If we can do this in one
circumstance, and recieve no  scoped signal from a
measuring inductor, then we might say that the
magnetic field created by the changing electric field
is polarized in 2 dimensions. If we can create a
different circumstance, when we DO see a signal for
that circumstance, we might say the field effect in
polarized in all 3 dimensions.  Since we can create
both circumstances, and one is clearly different from
the other, how can you then say that longitudinal
field effects cannot be created?  I shouldnt really be
wasting my time here on this reply, but I felt it was
needed. I could easily show some jpegs that record a
longitudinal phenomenon, but as the list has noted,
that would be redundant if folks cant access the jpeg.
Sincerely HDN

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 12:30:18 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:27:47 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: U.S. per capita energy consumption
In-Reply-To: <00b101c2e0df$27e76480$0a016ea8 cpq>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>If this is accurate, and the bamboo biomass is equal to dry wood, then the 
>dried biomass gives about 600 million BTU per acre-year. For comparison 
>purposes, the average American uses 50 million BTU for automotive 
>transport and 75 million for all other needs including food, or 125 
>million total . . .

That's too low. I am not sure of the breakdown between home, automobile, 
food and so on, but many of those details are available here:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/

Total annual per capita consumption is 340 million Btu (2001). See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0105.html

Residential appears to be ~21% of total consumption, or ~71 million Btu per 
capita. In other words, based on this table I estimate that the average 
person uses 71 million Btu at home:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0201a.html

Bear in mind that several people live in each dwelling.

In another table, 1997 average residential energy use is listed as 101 
million Btu, including "site electricity," meaning electric energy expended 
in the household, or one-third of the primary fuel energy back at the 
generator plant.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0205.html

The difference between the EIA figures and Jones estimate may be due to the 
following factors:

1. The EIA counts all energy consumption including commercial and 
industrial energy embodied in goods and services consumed by each person, 
and by the government and military.

2. Energy overhead is large, from 10 to 20% depending on the type of fuel. 
This is fuel used by the energy industry itself for things like oil 
refineries, coal mines, pipelines and so on. It is unclear how much 
overhead various forms of biomass would take, but I expect it would be on 
the high end.


>In addition, home electrical energy consumption averages a 1000 
>kiloWatt-hour(kWh) per month for a total of over 10,000 kWh per year. . . .

This is "site electricity." Bear in mind that two-thirds of primary fossil 
fuel or nuclear energy used to generate electricity is lost during 
generation and transmission. Converting fossil fuel into hydrogen and using 
the hydrogen with fuel cells would be more efficient.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 12:39:04 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:35:28 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
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jonfli wrote:

>Is this a reasonably accurate statement regarding the efficiency 
>being  ~50% in a system consisting of an electrolysis generation of 
>hydrogen/oxygen supplying a fuel cell?

That is what the Popular Science article means, but this estimate is low 
according to other sources. In 1990 conventional industrial electrolysis 
efficiency was ~65%, and it was expected to reach 75% by 2020. Source: 
Pacific Gas and Electric Company, "Hydrogen and Electricity as Carriers of 
Solar and Wind Energy for the 1990s and Beyond," G. W. Braun, A. Souchard, 
J. Martin, 1990. Perhaps it would be less efficient on a smaller scale.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 12:46:28 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <16.2d7713b6.2b951710 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:37:36 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Bedini RolerSkate Motor
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, adeonekonade@hotmail.com
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In a message dated 3/3/03 7:50:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
adeonekonade hotmail.com writes:

           REPLY  Explain it to the person I refereed you to in a previously 
mail. Plus I'm sending the question to the vortex group.  But understand 99% 
are just theory only types and i seriously do not think they will have clue 
one 

 But you never know there may be some hands on types that understand the 
operational sides of situations, but do not hold your breath.  Because 
personally i have not found any that do. The prime Tech. here can probably 
explain what is happening.   If anyone could considering now he has probably 
the brightest  over all razor edge multi dimensional Tech. mind on this 
planet. 

 If he cannot accomplish the explanation. It probably is not possible for 
anyone else to either considering the grossly substandard scientific 
understandings of operational situations that your describing that presently 
exist on this planet.     

> Q. Why does the rotor speed improve by 300% when I remove this diode?
> 
> A recent replication of the 9v Bedini Pulse Motor. I used a suprplus 
> Relay Coil from an Old Security system. This coils was BiFilar wound 
> with 2 coils.
> 
> 
> Soft Iron core, ex Relay Coil. 15mm Face.
> 
> 
> 300ohms -> Transitor Base
> 100ohms -> 32volt Regulated Power supply
> 
> 
> For this coil I am going to by a bunch of 8x9volt rechargables for a 
> 72volt supply. I dont want to risk using my Lead Acid batteries just 
> yet, as I got a nice wallop form the back EMF while scewing around 
> with the Diode. 
> 
> The rotor on this motor is a RollerBlade wheel with 4x (18x9mm) C5 
> Disc magnets all north facing. 
> 
> I removed the diode and the motor ran a hell of a lot faster and 
> cooler. I also put in a variable resitor to alter the timing.
> 
> See Diagram : (Stupid Yahoo screws link)
> http://www.alzimach.net/modules.php?
> op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=46
> 
> Regards
> 
> Adeon
> 
> 
> 
> 


--part1_16.2d7713b6.2b951710_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/3/03=
 7:50:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, adeonekonade hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;=20=
Explain it to the person I refereed you to in a previously mail. Plus I'm se=
nding the question to the vortex group.&nbsp; But understand 99% are just th=
eory only types and i seriously do not think they will have clue one <BR>
<BR>
 But you never know there may be some hands on types that understand the ope=
rational sides of situations, but do not hold your breath.&nbsp; Because per=
sonally i have not found any that do. The prime Tech. here can probably expl=
ain what is happening.&nbsp;&nbsp; If anyone could considering now he has pr=
obably the brightest&nbsp; over all razor edge multi dimensional Tech. mind=20=
on this planet. <BR>
<BR>
 If he cannot accomplish the explanation. It probably is not possible for an=
yone else to either considering the grossly substandard scientific understan=
dings of operational situations that your describing that presently exist on=
 this planet.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Q. Why does the rotor speed imp=
rove by 300% when I remove this diode?<BR>
<BR>
A recent replication of the 9v Bedini Pulse Motor. I used a suprplus <BR>
Relay Coil from an Old Security system. This coils was BiFilar wound <BR>
with 2 coils.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Soft Iron core, ex Relay Coil. 15mm Face.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
300ohms -&gt; Transitor Base<BR>
100ohms -&gt; 32volt Regulated Power supply<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
For this coil I am going to by a bunch of 8x9volt rechargables for a <BR>
72volt supply. I dont want to risk using my Lead Acid batteries just <BR>
yet, as I got a nice wallop form the back EMF while scewing around <BR>
with the Diode. <BR>
<BR>
The rotor on this motor is a RollerBlade wheel with 4x (18x9mm) C5 <BR>
Disc magnets all north facing. <BR>
<BR>
I removed the diode and the motor ran a hell of a lot faster and <BR>
cooler. I also put in a variable resitor to alter the timing.<BR>
<BR>
See Diagram : (Stupid Yahoo screws link)<BR>
http://www.alzimach.net/modules.php?<BR>
op=3Dmodload&amp;name=3DNews&amp;file=3Darticle&amp;sid=3D46<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
Adeon<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_16.2d7713b6.2b951710_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 13:16:59 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:14:32 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Biomass overhead
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303150002.00b1eec0 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <00b101c2e0df$27e76480$0a016ea8 cpq>
 <015501c2e014$b01921c0$3601bf3f computer>
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I wrote:

>2. Energy overhead is large, from 10 to 20% depending on the type of fuel. 
>This is fuel used by the energy industry itself for things like oil 
>refineries, coal mines, pipelines and so on. It is unclear how much 
>overhead various forms of biomass would take, but I expect it would be on 
>the high end.

I say this because the only form of biomass widely used in the U.S. is 
ethanol, and the energy "overhead" for this is higher than the actual 
energy content. It takes 131,017 Btu of fossil fuel to make one gallon of 
ethanol, and this gallon produces only 76,000 Btu (U.S. Congress Office of 
Technology Assessment - OTA,  1990). So, you might say, the overhead is 
172%. The ethanol program is gift to OPEC and the coal industry.

OTA statistics and studies were reportedly reliable and honest, which I 
assume is why the Congress abolished the Office in 1995. Truth and politics 
seldom mix. See:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/

The fiscal and energy economics for other biomass systems appear to be as 
dreary as U.S. ethanol. In Brazil, ethanol is made from sugarcane 
feedstock. Experts estimate that to produce 1 liter of ethanol, it takes 
somewhere between 0.5 to 1.0 liters of imported petroleum. The other 
obvious problem with conventional biomass (but *not* with the new species 
described by Beene) is that every calorie of food converted into energy 
reduces human food supplies, and 2 billion people worldwide are 
malnourished or starving. As a fraction of the human race, this is one 
third, which is probably the lowest in history. But as an absolute 
number  it is by far the highest number of distressed people in history.

Someone here suggested piping large amounts of ocean water for ponds inland 
desert areas. This may have been a joke, but anyway, it would be an 
ecological nightmare. The salt would cause untold destruction. I do not 
think it could be contained or harvested economically. There is already far 
too much salt spread on U.S. land during winter storms by road crews.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 13:40:58 2003
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From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <16.2d7713b6.2b951710 aol.com>
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Bedini RolerSkate Motor
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:25:34 -0600
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Jack,

Due to the small amount of info given on the Rollerblade wheel motor, it is
difficult to pinpoint the exact reason(s) for the motor's speed increase,
however IMO, removing the base-emitter diode will allow the base drive to go
sufficiently negative during the "off" portion of the cycle which will raise
the effective breakdown voltage (Vceo) of the bipolar transistor. This in
turn may allow the transistor in this particular circuitry (with it's given
voltages and currents) to just stay out of the avalanche region for the
device during the flyback or turn-off period. If the transistor is going
into avalanche during the flyback time with the diode in place, the device
will dissipate energy (run hot) and the motor's efficiency will suffer (run
slow). Of course there are many factors that could also come into play here
but there is too little data to go into further speculation.

Jon


----- Original Message -----
From: <JCarey9622 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <adeonekonade@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Bedini RolerSkate Motor


> In a message dated 3/3/03 7:50:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> adeonekonade hotmail.com writes:
>
>            REPLY  Explain it to the person I refereed you to in a
previously
> mail. Plus I'm sending the question to the vortex group.  But understand
99%
> are just theory only types and i seriously do not think they will have
clue
> one
>
>  But you never know there may be some hands on types that understand the
> operational sides of situations, but do not hold your breath.  Because
> personally i have not found any that do. The prime Tech. here can probably
> explain what is happening.   If anyone could considering now he has
probably
> the brightest  over all razor edge multi dimensional Tech. mind on this
> planet.
>
>  If he cannot accomplish the explanation. It probably is not possible for
> anyone else to either considering the grossly substandard scientific
> understandings of operational situations that your describing that
presently
> exist on this planet.
>
> > Q. Why does the rotor speed improve by 300% when I remove this diode?
> >
> > A recent replication of the 9v Bedini Pulse Motor. I used a suprplus
> > Relay Coil from an Old Security system. This coils was BiFilar wound
> > with 2 coils.
> >
> >
> > Soft Iron core, ex Relay Coil. 15mm Face.
> >
> >
> > 300ohms -> Transitor Base
> > 100ohms -> 32volt Regulated Power supply
> >
> >
> > For this coil I am going to by a bunch of 8x9volt rechargables for a
> > 72volt supply. I dont want to risk using my Lead Acid batteries just
> > yet, as I got a nice wallop form the back EMF while scewing around
> > with the Diode.
> >
> > The rotor on this motor is a RollerBlade wheel with 4x (18x9mm) C5
> > Disc magnets all north facing.
> >
> > I removed the diode and the motor ran a hell of a lot faster and
> > cooler. I also put in a variable resitor to alter the timing.
> >
> > See Diagram : (Stupid Yahoo screws link)
> > http://www.alzimach.net/modules.php?
> > op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=46
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Adeon


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:00:40 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:57:32 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0302281107090.17267-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <v01530500ba8198522d3d [12.21.211.137]>
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William Beaty wrote:

>So, who on vortex-L still wants to converse with Mr. Carey?   Please
>respond.

Not me. However, since Vortex-L began, e-mail programs such as Outlook and 
Eudora have improved. It is now easy to filter out messages. So we probably 
no longer need to tweak the rules or establish special-case rulings for 
people like Carey. One click and he's gone.

Perhaps many readers here still use old e-mail programs, in which case this 
problem does need to be addressed.

(If any reader out there is having difficulty using the "filter" feature, 
please feel free to contact me privately for a little technical support.)


In a similar topic, based on a recent study I predict that spam will soon 
decline. I think the competitive war between anti-spam tools and spam will 
finally make spam not cost effective, which will greatly reduce the volume. 
It appears that most spam is now aimed at scamming other people who are 
thinking of entering the spam business. This is a typical pattern seen in 
the last stages of a financial bubble or get-rich-quick scheme, just before 
the collapse. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,57613,00.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:07:35 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <7e.36391698.2b952b1b aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:03:07 EST
Subject: Someone in it appears Turkey has some vision 
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In a message dated 3/3/03 4:32:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:

   SIR personally I do not understand your reply. Because I'm not scientific=
=20
inclined  I create the bases for the business side of the new evolutionary=20
Tech. CO we are creating. But The Tesla and Einstein level Tech. people in=20
the group should SO I'm forwarding this to them for their review and possibl=
e=20
reply to you.  But I will say many answers have been found in string and=20
super theories in regard to what are now considered futuristic basically=20
unknown operational situations  =20
> Dear JCarey,
>=20
> Thank you for your mail. I had lot of interest on Kaluza and K&K theory an=
d=20
> on the initial the non relativistic Nordhstr=F5m theory.
>=20
>=20
> JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
> >=20
> > In a message dated 2/25/03 3:05:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
> hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:
> >=20
> > > Of course additional momentum observation does not automatically point=
=20
> to rest mass of photon. As this would violated SR, one should need a valid=
=20
> theory to model what will this additional momentum would correspond. For=20
> example according some theories, an instant gravitational interaction woul=
d=20
> occurs in measurable level.
> > >
> > >       Reply   =20
>=20
> [snip]
>=20
> > Kaluza's was when in theory he stated there was a fifth force. But could=
=20
> not prove it with a physical demo. Witch is now possible. It is a=20
> combination of the four known forces. Do you grasp how far ahead of=20
> 99.9999% of you that possibly is..At the current pace main stream is=20
> traveling at with is barley crewing it is about three century's.
>=20
>=20


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/3/03=
 4:32:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>SIR personally I do not understand your reply. Because I'm n=
ot scientific inclined&nbsp; I create the bases for the business side of the=
 new evolutionary Tech. CO we are creating. But The Tesla and Einstein level=
 Tech. people in the group should SO I'm forwarding this to them for their r=
eview and possible reply to you.&nbsp; But I will say many answers have been=
 found in string and super theories in regard to what are now considered fut=
uristic basically unknown operational situations&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></B>Dear JCarey,<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for your mail. I had lot of interest on Kaluza and K&amp;K theory=20=
and on the initial the non relativistic Nordhstr=F5m theory.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; In a message dated 2/25/03 3:05:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix ver=
isoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; &gt; Of course additional momentum observation does not automatically p=
oint to rest mass of photon. As this would violated SR, one should need a va=
lid theory to model what will this additional momentum would correspond. For=
 example according some theories, an instant gravitational interaction would=
 occurs in measurable level.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
&gt; Kaluza's was when in theory he stated there was a fifth force. But coul=
d not prove it with a physical demo. Witch is now possible. It is a combinat=
ion of the four known forces. Do you grasp how far ahead of 99.9999% of you=20=
that possibly is..At the current pace main stream is traveling at with is ba=
rley crewing it is about three century's.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_7e.36391698.2b952b1b_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:13:55 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:10:47 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Biomass overhead
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303153653.00af6eb0 pop.mindspring.com>
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	Dear Jed,

	Why in the world would you talk about making Ethanol Out Of
Fossil Fuel???

	That seems a little like taking a few steps backward... and maybe
sideways also....

	I seem to remember the basic idea of using Ethanol is to get Away
>From Fossil Fuel .......or have I missed some news?

							JH

On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
> >2. Energy overhead is large, from 10 to 20% depending on the type of fuel. 
> >This is fuel used by the energy industry itself for things like oil 
> >refineries, coal mines, pipelines and so on. It is unclear how much 
> >overhead various forms of biomass would take, but I expect it would be on 
> >the high end.
> 
> I say this because the only form of biomass widely used in the U.S. is 
> ethanol, and the energy "overhead" for this is higher than the actual 
> energy content. It takes 131,017 Btu of fossil fuel to make one gallon of 
> ethanol, and this gallon produces only 76,000 Btu (U.S. Congress Office of 
> Technology Assessment - OTA,  1990). So, you might say, the overhead is 
> 172%. The ethanol program is gift to OPEC and the coal industry.
> 
> OTA statistics and studies were reportedly reliable and honest, which I 
> assume is why the Congress abolished the Office in 1995. Truth and politics 
> seldom mix. See:
> 
> http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/
> 
> The fiscal and energy economics for other biomass systems appear to be as 
> dreary as U.S. ethanol. In Brazil, ethanol is made from sugarcane 
> feedstock. Experts estimate that to produce 1 liter of ethanol, it takes 
> somewhere between 0.5 to 1.0 liters of imported petroleum. The other 
> obvious problem with conventional biomass (but *not* with the new species 
> described by Beene) is that every calorie of food converted into energy 
> reduces human food supplies, and 2 billion people worldwide are 
> malnourished or starving. As a fraction of the human race, this is one 
> third, which is probably the lowest in history. But as an absolute 
> number  it is by far the highest number of distressed people in history.
> 
> Someone here suggested piping large amounts of ocean water for ponds inland 
> desert areas. This may have been a joke, but anyway, it would be an 
> ecological nightmare. The salt would cause untold destruction. I do not 
> think it could be contained or harvested economically. There is already far 
> too much salt spread on U.S. land during winter storms by road crews.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:23:32 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:15:57 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: anti Spam ..... Reporting Spammers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303163624.00af6eb0 pop.mindspring.com>
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	Dear Vo.,

	Do any of you know any reasonably useful and straightforward
associations, and-or other "anti-spam" entities one can report spammers
to....?

	The idea is to be proactive...instead of simply eliminating the
local..... on your machine problem..... to report these incidents to some
group that may wish to take further "counter-spam" action.

						JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:25:50 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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In a message dated 3/3/03 5:10:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

<< Not me.  >>
Not me also
Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:34:25 2003
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References: 
 <Pine.GSO.3.96.1030303171301.4583O-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:24:59 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: anti Spam ..... Reporting Spammers
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There's SpamCop, but these things will run their course with or without you. The local machine solutions are good. I'm using the system where everything not from someone who's address I keep in a list is sent to the "For Review" box. Almost always 100% spam, so I can review and delete it easily.

- Rick


>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	Do any of you know any reasonably useful and straightforward
>associations, and-or other "anti-spam" entities one can report spammers
>to....?
>
>	The idea is to be proactive...instead of simply eliminating the
>local..... on your machine problem..... to report these incidents to some
>group that may wish to take further "counter-spam" action.
>
>						JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:47:51 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:45:04 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Biomass overhead
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1030303170818.4583N-100000 college.antioch-c
 ollege.edu>
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Jed,
>
>         Why in the world would you talk about making Ethanol Out Of
>Fossil Fuel???

They do not convert the fossil fuel into ethanol directly. Perhaps they 
should; that would be a lot more efficient and less polluting! It would be 
utterly pointless, but it would save the U.S. taxpayers billions of dollars.

They use fossil fuel to grow, transport and process the biomass (usually 
corn in the U.S.). For example, it takes oil or coal to: run tractors; make 
fertilizer; irrigate the crops; transport crops to a factory; and run the 
factory. These are energy inputs. As I said, according to every objective 
study I can find these inputs are considerably greater than the energy 
output from the ethanol. In contrast, it takes about 20% of the final 
energy we extract from oil to drill, pump, transport, refine and sell 
petroleum. (That number may be skewed by the fraction of oil that is used 
in non-energy applications, such as plastic feedstock. I am trying to find 
more detailed information on this.)

There are other critical inputs to ethanol, in addition to energy. Ethanol 
production, like all U.S. agriculture, is a non-renewable process. It 
permanently destroys land and water resources (aquifers). It erodes land 
approximately 18 times faster than the rate of soil reformation. And it 
causes horrendous pollution -- far worse than fossil fuel production. Each 
gallon of ethanol produces 160 gallons of wastewater. The cost of 
processing this sewage would add $0.06 per gallon to the cost of ethanol 
(which is already far more expensive than petroleum), but I think the waste 
is not generally treated. Ethanol plants are like pig factories and old 
coal-fired generator plants: they dump pollution into the surroundings, 
ruin property values, destroy rivers and kill thousands of people with 
impunity. They are more or less exempt from pollution and safety standards.

Most of these figures are from Pimentel, chapters 18 and 19.

I do not understand how biomass or ethanol ever became the darling of the 
environmentalist movement. I guess it proves there are many stupid 
environmentalists.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:48:48 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:48:00 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: anti Spam ..... Reporting Spammers
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	Is "Spamcop" a place to report Spam?
	
	Or is this a product?	

	Do they have URL?

				Thanks,
						JH


On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> There's SpamCop, but these things will run their course with or without you. The local machine solutions are good. I'm using the system where everything not from someone who's address I keep in a list is sent to the "For Review" box. Almost always 100% spam, so I can review and delete it easily.
> 
> - Rick
> 
> 
> >	Dear Vo.,
> >
> >	Do any of you know any reasonably useful and straightforward
> >associations, and-or other "anti-spam" entities one can report spammers
> >to....?
> >
> >	The idea is to be proactive...instead of simply eliminating the
> >local..... on your machine problem..... to report these incidents to some
> >group that may wish to take further "counter-spam" action.
> >
> >						JH
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 14:49:43 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:06:30 -0500
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Hi John.

Good question. I think the choice of crop ( corn )
dictated the need for some petroleum based fertilizer
to grow in the quantities needed for fuel use.

I like the notion of using weeds, something like bamboo
would be great. BTW, as the crops are not being
grown for food use, perhaps this is a good candidate
for genetic engineering? Sort of like the movie "Sleeper",
but with jack-and-the-beanstalk sized bamboo rather than
bananas. 50 inches a day, huh? That's remarkable.
I'll bet if we tinkered with the genes a bit it
would grow fast enough to see!

What's the moisture content of that Kudzu you're always
whinging about, Jed? I'll bet you could find a lot
of people to harvest the stuff for a few pennies per
pound. Many urban poor already do this with beverage bottles.
"Trade your green for our gold(TM)" That'd get rid
of the pernicious stuff.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 5:11 PM
To: Jed Rothwell
Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Biomass overhead




	Dear Jed,

	Why in the world would you talk about making Ethanol Out Of
Fossil Fuel???

	That seems a little like taking a few steps backward... and maybe
sideways also....

	I seem to remember the basic idea of using Ethanol is to get Away
>From Fossil Fuel .......or have I missed some news?

							JH

On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> >2. Energy overhead is large, from 10 to 20% depending on the type of
fuel.
> >This is fuel used by the energy industry itself for things like oil
> >refineries, coal mines, pipelines and so on. It is unclear how much
> >overhead various forms of biomass would take, but I expect it would be on
> >the high end.
>
> I say this because the only form of biomass widely used in the U.S. is
> ethanol, and the energy "overhead" for this is higher than the actual
> energy content. It takes 131,017 Btu of fossil fuel to make one gallon of
> ethanol, and this gallon produces only 76,000 Btu (U.S. Congress Office of
> Technology Assessment - OTA,  1990). So, you might say, the overhead is
> 172%. The ethanol program is gift to OPEC and the coal industry.
>
> OTA statistics and studies were reportedly reliable and honest, which I
> assume is why the Congress abolished the Office in 1995. Truth and
politics
> seldom mix. See:
>
> http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/
>
> The fiscal and energy economics for other biomass systems appear to be as
> dreary as U.S. ethanol. In Brazil, ethanol is made from sugarcane
> feedstock. Experts estimate that to produce 1 liter of ethanol, it takes
> somewhere between 0.5 to 1.0 liters of imported petroleum. The other
> obvious problem with conventional biomass (but *not* with the new species
> described by Beene) is that every calorie of food converted into energy
> reduces human food supplies, and 2 billion people worldwide are
> malnourished or starving. As a fraction of the human race, this is one
> third, which is probably the lowest in history. But as an absolute
> number  it is by far the highest number of distressed people in history.
>
> Someone here suggested piping large amounts of ocean water for ponds
inland
> desert areas. This may have been a joke, but anyway, it would be an
> ecological nightmare. The salt would cause untold destruction. I do not
> think it could be contained or harvested economically. There is already
far
> too much salt spread on U.S. land during winter storms by road crews.
>
> - Jed
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 15:02:18 2003
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 <5.1.0.14.2.20030303163624.00af6eb0 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:29:16 -1000
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Jed -

You noticed too! End game afoot.  :)

BTW moderator (Bill), I filtered Carey a while ago and I only know about his presence through the occasional quoteback or thread with a title like this. Filters are great. I believe the goofs do leave when they realize they _never_ get a response from anyone.

- Rick

>> <snip>
>>It appears that most spam is now aimed at scamming other people who are thinking of entering the spam business. This is a typical pattern seen in the last stages of a financial bubble or get-rich-quick scheme, just before the collapse. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,57613,00.html

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--part1_ea.3646cbc9.2b9538d4_boundary
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   Jed    GENE MALLOVE sent a researcher here to investigate an advanced 
evolutionary new electrical conversion tech. light years beyond current 
scientific understanding. He was clueless about but cannot deny the process 
functioned as advertised.

 Plus with instructions from this end built an obsolete version that he 
cannot explain but cannot deny functions as advertised.  You stated in mail 
that you would pay 10,000 for something on that level. You offered me on the 
phone 18 Months ago 20,000 for a lighter that worked using  water instead of 
butane  but that unit is not for sale presently.

 A phase conversion unit is as per your statement that we retain rights and 
you would receive a unit.  It you were willing to pay 20,000 for the lighter. 
The phase conversion that proves the first new electrical theory in one 
century should be worth 25,000. But your not replying why?     So all one can 
assume is you all talk and no action. And you have zero creditability because 
of that. 

--part1_ea.3646cbc9.2b9538d4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Jed&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; GENE MALLOVE sent a researcher here to investigate an advanced=20=
evolutionary new electrical conversion tech. light years beyond current scie=
ntific understanding. He was clueless about but cannot deny the process func=
tioned as advertised.<BR>
<BR>
 Plus with instructions from this end built an obsolete version that he cann=
ot explain but cannot deny functions as advertised.&nbsp; You stated in mail=
 that you would pay 10,000 for something on that level. You offered me on th=
e phone 18 Months ago 20,000 for a lighter that worked using&nbsp; water ins=
tead of butane&nbsp; but that unit is not for sale presently.<BR>
<BR>
 A phase conversion unit is as per your statement that we retain rights and=20=
you would receive a unit.&nbsp; It you were willing to pay 20,000 for the li=
ghter. The phase conversion that proves the first new electrical theory in o=
ne century should be worth 25,000. But your not replying why?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; So all one can assume is you all talk and no action. And you have=20=
zero creditability because of that. </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:29:25 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Contradictions
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In a message dated 3/3/03 3:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
michaelcamer yahoo.com writes:


> Okay Phil, let's get this pout in the open. You wrote;
> 
> >No, it can't create energy from nothing. What's actually happening
> (according to Einstein's view) is that gravity provides a mechanism by
> which part of the mass of an object can be converted into energy
> (according to E=mc^2) as it falls. This really *is* what happens, even
> though only a teensy tiny fraction of the object's mass gets converted
> in this way -- at least if we're talking about the earth's gravity field
> and not that of a black hole. But the important thing is that the energy
> doesn't come from nothing. It's all accounted for.
>   REPLY It is simple power has to come from somewhere and is converted as 
> with.  The unit that Steven Greer has witch is Neutrinos Or used. 
> Converting that power is not natural and is not safe. As splitting a 
> molecule of water is not natural and is not safe.  Plus will create worse 
> effects than the burning of fossil fuels does   

   NOW your body converts the same neutrinos into electricity that in turn 
causes the chemical reactions That is 
> natural. The bottom line do not screw with mother nature or you will pay the 
> price by losing your civilization  
> 
> >What you're actually doing is converting energy back into mass as you
> lift the object back to its starting point.
> 
> 
> Are you, or are you not stating that when the gravity of a more
> massive body has influence over a lesser body, so the lesser attains
> motion, the lesser has some of its mass converted to energy?
> 
> Also Phil, regarding the interchangability of mass and energy, I have
> a little test for you. Lets say we have a an object with a certain
> quantity of mass, lets call it p. That mass possesses a certain
> quanity of energy, lets call it q. If we were to reduce the mass by
> half, we will also reduce the energy by half- p divided by 2=q divided
> by 2
> Restarting if we were to reduce the energy by half would we reduce the
> mass by half?
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/3/03=
 3:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelcamer yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Okay Phil, let's get this pout=20=
in the open. You wrote;<BR>
<BR>
&gt;No, it can't create energy from nothing. What's actually happening<BR>
(according to Einstein's view) is that gravity provides a mechanism by<BR>
which part of the mass of an object can be converted into energy<BR>
(according to E=3Dmc^2) as it falls. This really *is* what happens, even<BR>
though only a teensy tiny fraction of the object's mass gets converted<BR>
in this way -- at least if we're talking about the earth's gravity field<BR>
and not that of a black hole. But the important thing is that the energy<BR>
doesn't come from nothing. It's all accounted for.<BR>
<B>&nbsp; REPLY It is simple power has to come from somewhere and is convert=
ed as with.&nbsp; The unit that Steven Greer has witch is Neutrinos Or used.=
 Converting that power is not natural and is not safe. As splitting a molecu=
le of water is not natural and is not safe.&nbsp; Plus will create worse eff=
ects than the burning of fossil fuels does&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>NOW your bod=
y converts the same neutrinos into electricity that in turn causes the chemi=
cal reactions That is </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><B=
R>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>natural. The bottom line do not screw with mother nature=
 or you will pay the price by losing your civilization&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
&gt;What you're actually doing is converting energy back into mass as you<BR=
>
lift the object back to its starting point.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Are you, or are you not stating that when the gravity of a more<BR>
massive body has influence over a lesser body, so the lesser attains<BR>
motion, the lesser has some of its mass converted to energy?<BR>
<BR>
Also Phil, regarding the interchangability of mass and energy, I have<BR>
a little test for you. Lets say we have a an object with a certain<BR>
quantity of mass, lets call it p. That mass possesses a certain<BR>
quanity of energy, lets call it q. If we were to reduce the mass by<BR>
half, we will also reduce the energy by half- p divided by 2=3Dq divided<BR>
by 2<BR>
Restarting if we were to reduce the energy by half would we reduce the<BR>
mass by half?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 15:42:06 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:40:14 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEEBHDIAA.knagel gis.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1030303170818.4583N-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Good question. I think the choice of crop ( corn )
>dictated the need for some petroleum based fertilizer
>to grow in the quantities needed for fuel use.

Fertilizer is a large input with corn. It is less with other crops, but as 
far as I can tell, no crop produced with mechanized, energy-intense U.S. 
style agriculture can be a practical source of energy. This is not the case 
with agriculture in other countries, and it certainly is not the case with 
small-scale agriculture in the U.S. For example, many people in the 
countryside have abundant fallen trees. They cut firewood for themselves 
and a few others. This causes little pollution and no strain on the 
environment. Also there are many cost-effective sources of biomass such as 
peanut shells in Georgia peanut processing plants, and wood trimmings from 
sawmills. And for all I know this new species that Beene described may 
work. Just because you cannot produce net energy with corn or sugarcane 
grown in a field, that does not mean you will fail with a covered pond or 
something like that. It is a radically different approach.

Here are the inputs for corn, from Pimentel:

Table 19.1 Energy inputs for corn production in the United States

Inputs, Btu/Acre x 10^3
Labor, 0
Machinery, 1,630
Gasoline, 520
Diesel, 1,080
Irrigation, 2,840
Electricity, 144
Nitrogen, 5,107
Phosphorus, 757
Potassium, 384
Lime, 214
Seeds, 832
Insecticides, 160
Herbicides, 640
Drying, 1,970
Transport, 145

TOTAL   16,423

Note: Corn yield =110 bu/acre.
Source: Modified after Pimentel and Wen Dazhong, 1 990.

Table 19.2    Inputs per gallon of ethanol

Inputs, Btu
Corn, 56,720
Transport, 610
Stain, Steel, 1,348
Steel, 2,106
Cement, 909 (this is for 0.27 lbs cement - presumably based on lifetime of 
plant?)
Plant, other, 2,800
Water, 1,364
Electricity, 5,160
Fuel, 60,000 (An estimate from EPRI, 1980; and NAP, 1987)

TOTAL, 131,017

Output: 1 gallon of ethanol = 78,000 Btu


>What's the moisture content of that Kudzu you're always
>whinging about, Jed? I'll bet you could find a lot
>of people to harvest the stuff for a few pennies per
>pound.

Well, not by hand for a living wage. But you could get people to do the 
work for free! In greater Atlanta, they would put it in plastic bags, drive 
it to a collection point in their SUVs, and leave the engines idling while 
they line up to dump it, like they do with Christmas trees.

Years ago I met an engineer who had worked on glass factories. He knew a 
lot about energy economics, manufacturing and so on. He was laughing about 
a big environmentalist organization that had recently handed out a medal to 
some citizens group that championed recycled bottles. He said: "Think about 
what these people are doing! Washing bottles -- probably with warm water. 
Where do they think the hot water comes from? Where do they think the glue 
and bits of paper go? Down the drain and then what?!? To wastewater 
treatment. We can install an upgrade at the glass factory that will save a 
dozen times the energy these people save by recycling glass, with way less 
pollution."

Many earnest, good-hearted people in the environmentalist movement do not 
have a clue how industry works, where material good or food comes from, or 
where they go when they are finished. Nefarious lobbyists and members of 
Congress exploit this ignorance to foist programs like ethanol onto the 
taxpayer. Sigh . . . That's how we end up fighting wars for oil. If we were 
a little smarter we would have so darn much oil left over in the U.S., we 
would be exporting it!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 15:49:39 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <174.173685d4.2b95426b aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:42:35 EST
Subject: WHO is the Goof? 
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  A GooF   We have a published new Technology none of you have shown any 
understanding of. That colleges have seen operational   Who is the Goof ? It 
appears you Goofed somewhere along the line. When you let the EDU system fed 
you the incorrect info. IF so you have it backwards It is you that is the 
GOOF not me. 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;<B> A GooF&nbsp;&nb=
sp; We have a published new Technology none of you have shown any understand=
ing of. That colleges have seen operational&nbsp;&nbsp; Who is the Goof ? It=
 appears you Goofed somewhere along the line. When you let the EDU system fe=
d you the incorrect info. IF so you have it backwards It is you that is the=20=
GOOF not me. </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 16:22:28 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:38:01 -0500
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Hi Rick.

You are sadly mistaken if you think we'll ever
see an end to spam. For it is said, "Even a blind
squirrel will occasionally find a nut". And there
will ALWAYS be someone who responds, given a large
enough exposure. As we have seen.

Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.
Or so it seems to me.

K.

PS: What happened to that Hawaiian dock that
self charged? Can you give us a follow up?

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick highsurf.com]
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 5:29 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling


Jed -

You noticed too! End game afoot.  :)

BTW moderator (Bill), I filtered Carey a while ago and I only know about his
presence through the occasional quoteback or thread with a title like this.
Filters are great. I believe the goofs do leave when they realize they
_never_ get a response from anyone.

- Rick

>> <snip>
>>It appears that most spam is now aimed at scamming other people who are
thinking of entering the spam business. This is a typical pattern seen in
the last stages of a financial bubble or get-rich-quick scheme, just before
the collapse. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,57613,00.html


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 17:57:25 2003
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I would like to suggest again that it would be best to totally ignore 
> Jack Carey. >>
>
>Point taken.

Yup.  If someone wants me to follow their comments, they need to speak in a
coherent fashion that is respectful of my time and which does not descend 
into schoolyard argumentation.


 I"M sorry if I'm aware of operational situations beyond your time. What do 
want me to do about because it is all I know? At least you know it is coming. 
That is better than not knowing at all. And being blind sided by it and not 
be prepared. 

You could evolve but you chose not to with perplexes me where that thinking 
comes from. Because it makes no sense at all. But your entitled to the way 
you think. If you wish to stay in the past where I guess you feel secure that 
is up to you. I have no interest in being there. What for?  BecauseThere will 
be nothing there>    .   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2><BR>
I would like to suggest again that it would be best to totally ignore <BR>
&gt; Jack Carey. &gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;Point taken.<BR>
<BR>
Yup.&nbsp; If someone wants me to follow their comments, they need to speak=20=
in a<BR>
coherent fashion that is respectful of my time and which does not descend in=
to schoolyard argumentation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <B>I"M sorry if I'm aware of operational situations beyond your time. What=20=
do want me to do about because it is all I know? At least you know it is com=
ing. That is better than not knowing at all. And being blind sided by it and=
 not be prepared. <BR>
<BR>
You could evolve but you chose not to with perplexes me where that thinking=20=
comes from. Because it makes no sense at all. But your entitled to the way y=
ou think. If you wish to stay in the past where I guess you feel secure that=
 is up to you. I have no interest in being there. What for?&nbsp; BecauseThe=
re will be nothing there&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HT=
ML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 18:03:59 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:19:43 -0500
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Jed.

Thanks for the numbers re: corn. But it's agreed
that an expensive food grade plant would be a
poor choice for harvest strictly as a fuel
source. I believe that the reason for corn
is more economic, as a hedge against fluxuation
in the price of this staple.

In my neighborhood, which I'm afraid is quite
unlike Mr. Rogers, the poor collect glass and
metal. They don't have SUV's, so they use
grocery store carts which they "borrow".
On my block, it's either an ancient chinese
woman dressed in traditional rural clothes,
or an middle aged american black man. They're
both reasonably respectful of the trash, no
one tries to stop them. Anyway, it's a pretty
efficient system (fuel wise) for generating a product
stream, if you're in the glass or metal
business. My understanding is, some collectors run
almost entirely on ethanol.

You know, perhaps what's needed is a more complex
biosystem. Like a fast growing weed plant, and
a rodent or other small animal. The animal would
eat the plants, and fertilize the ground with
it's droppings and eventually it's body. Hmmm...

K.




-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 6:40 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead


Keith Nagel wrote:

>Good question. I think the choice of crop ( corn )
>dictated the need for some petroleum based fertilizer
>to grow in the quantities needed for fuel use.

Fertilizer is a large input with corn. It is less with other crops, but as
far as I can tell, no crop produced with mechanized, energy-intense U.S.
style agriculture can be a practical source of energy. This is not the case
with agriculture in other countries, and it certainly is not the case with
small-scale agriculture in the U.S. For example, many people in the
countryside have abundant fallen trees. They cut firewood for themselves
and a few others. This causes little pollution and no strain on the
environment. Also there are many cost-effective sources of biomass such as
peanut shells in Georgia peanut processing plants, and wood trimmings from
sawmills. And for all I know this new species that Beene described may
work. Just because you cannot produce net energy with corn or sugarcane
grown in a field, that does not mean you will fail with a covered pond or
something like that. It is a radically different approach.

Here are the inputs for corn, from Pimentel:

Table 19.1 Energy inputs for corn production in the United States

Inputs, Btu/Acre x 10^3
Labor, 0
Machinery, 1,630
Gasoline, 520
Diesel, 1,080
Irrigation, 2,840
Electricity, 144
Nitrogen, 5,107
Phosphorus, 757
Potassium, 384
Lime, 214
Seeds, 832
Insecticides, 160
Herbicides, 640
Drying, 1,970
Transport, 145

TOTAL   16,423

Note: Corn yield =110 bu/acre.
Source: Modified after Pimentel and Wen Dazhong, 1 990.

Table 19.2    Inputs per gallon of ethanol

Inputs, Btu
Corn, 56,720
Transport, 610
Stain, Steel, 1,348
Steel, 2,106
Cement, 909 (this is for 0.27 lbs cement - presumably based on lifetime of
plant?)
Plant, other, 2,800
Water, 1,364
Electricity, 5,160
Fuel, 60,000 (An estimate from EPRI, 1980; and NAP, 1987)

TOTAL, 131,017

Output: 1 gallon of ethanol = 78,000 Btu


>What's the moisture content of that Kudzu you're always
>whinging about, Jed? I'll bet you could find a lot
>of people to harvest the stuff for a few pennies per
>pound.

Well, not by hand for a living wage. But you could get people to do the
work for free! In greater Atlanta, they would put it in plastic bags, drive
it to a collection point in their SUVs, and leave the engines idling while
they line up to dump it, like they do with Christmas trees.

Years ago I met an engineer who had worked on glass factories. He knew a
lot about energy economics, manufacturing and so on. He was laughing about
a big environmentalist organization that had recently handed out a medal to
some citizens group that championed recycled bottles. He said: "Think about
what these people are doing! Washing bottles -- probably with warm water.
Where do they think the hot water comes from? Where do they think the glue
and bits of paper go? Down the drain and then what?!? To wastewater
treatment. We can install an upgrade at the glass factory that will save a
dozen times the energy these people save by recycling glass, with way less
pollution."

Many earnest, good-hearted people in the environmentalist movement do not
have a clue how industry works, where material good or food comes from, or
where they go when they are finished. Nefarious lobbyists and members of
Congress exploit this ignorance to foist programs like ethanol onto the
taxpayer. Sigh . . . That's how we end up fighting wars for oil. If we were
a little smarter we would have so darn much oil left over in the U.S., we
would be exporting it!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 18:17:00 2003
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Message-ID: <013a01c2e1f1$f9f5d200$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc>
From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303152947.02f9f9d8 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:01:31 -0600
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Jed,

Although I didn't make myself clear, I think the article's reference to ~50%
efficiency was for the complete two stage conversion system. That is,
electrical energy into the electrolysis conversion, then hydrogen/oxygen to
the fuel cell with electrical energy out. This could place the electrolysis
efficiency at  ~65% as you state, leaving the fuel cell at  ~77% which
sounds reasonable.

Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion


> jonfli wrote:
>
> >Is this a reasonably accurate statement regarding the efficiency
> >being  ~50% in a system consisting of an electrolysis generation of
> >hydrogen/oxygen supplying a fuel cell?
>
> That is what the Popular Science article means, but this estimate is low
> according to other sources. In 1990 conventional industrial electrolysis
> efficiency was ~65%, and it was expected to reach 75% by 2020. Source:
> Pacific Gas and Electric Company, "Hydrogen and Electricity as Carriers of
> Solar and Wind Energy for the 1990s and Beyond," G. W. Braun, A. Souchard,
> J. Martin, 1990. Perhaps it would be less efficient on a smaller scale.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 19:09:45 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <94.35097913.2b95723e aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:06:38 EST
Subject: Email From The Chief Scientist Of THe Delphi CORP> 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com
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        WE had two meetings one was attended by a ranking city official prior 
to receiving this mail. This is a visionary MIT Ph.D . He did not know who 
Nicola Tesla was. Now He searches for anything and everything he can find out 
about him .. GM added or reassigned 1000 . Engineers after our meetings with 
them.  To work on alternative projects. 

 IF that is the case  If would appear we made an impression wouldn't it. What 
do you think? ??? Or do you know how to think. ?  It appears you do not. In 
no uncertain terms he was shown the next several steps in evolution beyond 
fuel cells, hybrids, internal combustion and current EV platforms. 

PLUS AS BONUS FOR FREE he was instructed about how to make his now obsolete 
hydrogen propulsion process function. They were looking at the concept 
backwards. What do expect from GM? I will say Carl is a Gentlemen who does 
not have the typtical arrogant GM attitude. He just lacked knowledge is all. 
You need to start prepareing yourself for major world wide in scope 
evolutionary changes. But do as you wish. I care less. Stay in your little 
boxes.         


Subj: Confidential Technologies  Date: 12/5/01 8:53:44 AM Eastern Standard 
Time 
From: carlton.speck delphiauto.com 
To: jcarey9622 aol.com 
Sent from the Internet (Details) 

Jack,       

    The person to contact concerning further discussions of your various 
technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries & Clearing. I 
have not been able to establish a phone number for her.  I have only been 
able to get an address.  It is:   Technologies Inquiries & Clearing   Delphi  
technologies, Inc. Delphi Automotive Systems PO Box 5 Troy, MI 48099-0005

When we talked about further discusions, I indicated that these people would 
expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.  In our last 
discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not understand how it 
could work.  I still don't, but I wish you your best in pursuing it   

  DR. Carlton Speck  Chief Scientist Delphi Corp. Flint Mi
************ **************** ********



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>WE had two meetings one was attended by a ranking city=20=
official prior to receiving this mail. This is a visionary MIT Ph.D . He did=
 not know who Nicola Tesla was. Now He searches for anything and everything=20=
he can find out about him .. GM added or reassigned 1000 . Engineers after o=
ur meetings with them.&nbsp; To work on alternative projects. <BR>
<BR>
 IF that is the case&nbsp; If would appear we made an impression wouldn't it=
. What do you think? ??? Or do you know how to think. ?&nbsp; It appears you=
 do not. In no uncertain terms he was shown the next several steps in evolut=
ion beyond fuel cells, hybrids, internal combustion and current EV platforms=
. <BR>
<BR>
PLUS AS BONUS FOR FREE he was instructed about how to make his now obsolete=20=
hydrogen propulsion process function. They were looking at the concept backw=
ards. What do expect from GM? I will say Carl is a Gentlemen who does not ha=
ve the typtical arrogant GM attitude. He just lacked knowledge is all. You n=
eed to start prepareing yourself for major world wide in scope evolutionary=20=
changes. But do as you wish. I care less. Stay in your little boxes.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Subj: Confidential Technologies&nbsp; Date: 12/5/01 8:53:44 AM Eastern Stand=
ard Time <BR>
From: carlton.speck delphiauto.com <BR>
To: jcarey9622 aol.com <BR>
Sent from the Internet (Details) <BR>
<BR>
Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The person to contact concerning further discussions of y=
our various technologies is Henrean Prater, Manager Technology Inquiries &am=
p; Clearing. I have not been able to establish a phone number for her.&nbsp;=
 I have only been able to get an address.&nbsp; It is:&nbsp;&nbsp; Technolog=
ies Inquiries &amp; Clearing&nbsp;&nbsp; Delphi&nbsp; technologies, Inc. Del=
phi Automotive Systems PO Box 5 Troy, MI 48099-0005<BR>
<BR>
When we talked about further discusions, I indicated that these people would=
 expect you to have IP protection of some sort; eg a patent, etc.&nbsp; In o=
ur last discussion about your technology I indicated that I did not understa=
nd how it could work.&nbsp; I still don't, but I wish you your best in pursu=
ing it&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; DR. Carlton Speck&nbsp; Chief Scientist Delphi Corp. Flint Mi<BR>
************ **************** ********<BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_94.35097913.2b95723e_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 19:17:24 2003
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Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:16:30 -0800
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:11:32 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <92686vsqjnh688oirnhcj02df3mttiuvl7 4ax.com>
References: <008f01c2e196$1a4a0dc0$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEBDDIAA.knagel@gis.net>
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:44:29 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>In fact, if you're willing to wait long enough, you can
>( at least theoretically ) get a few percent overunity
>based on the fact that the ambient heat in the cell can
>contribute a small amount of energy. I was never able
>to achieve a practical ( read that as commercial )
>implementation of this, but the fact that it IS possible
>should be a stimulus to peoples thinking. 

I suspect you will find that the gain in electrolysis is lost again in
the fuel cell. Can you find a fuel cell that will deliver more than 1.22 V,
because that's what it would take to go OU for the complete system?
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 19:44:42 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <197.16966de5.2b957ac5 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:43:01 EST
Subject: Re: Tom Thermo King In Minn Has a demo CD
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        SMALL world  Call Thermo King To get in touch with Warren.. Millions 
we are interested. Just the visual alone is all that is necessary you will 
not need any meters. Understand it is a two trillion dollar.technology  We 
are not even going to manuf. It is totally obsolete to us . And it is the 
most advanced situation on this planet.  NOTHING even comes remotely close.  

OK you have a Bible Explanation that figures. You have to find someway to 
explain it. They could have predicted it also. But they did not call Art Bell 
did they?     HE DID  He saw it in a remote view  then figured out what it 
was.  99.999999% cannot even imagine something of that magnitude.  

HOW many of you know ????Casinos Employ remote viewers to pick out the people 
that can win consistently.  THe trick  to get around them if can win the 
majoroty of the time. You always have someone that stands behind you when 
your playing,  that as acting as a block so they cannot sense you. THey are 
like dogs with a senetive sence of smell. My understanding is THey have to 
actually see you to be able to sense you.      

In a message dated 3/2/03 2:29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
> 
>             TOM     I just remembered   The Thermo King Corp. On 90 Th. 
> Street  in Minneapolis where you live  has a CD with demos on it, of 
> operational technologies. You CAN  contact Warren Ophiem he is a M.E.  I 
> left it there  in MAY    Before you watch it just forget what you know 
> about electrical theory. Or you will be totally lost if you attempt to use 
> it. BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it. 


Warren used to come to MN Tesla Society meetings. I'm disappointed that he 
didn't contact us about this. Do you have an email address, or other contact 
information?

> 
> You were talking about coming here, unless your and your friends have 
> millions do not waste your time. Unless you want to it is up to you.  You 
> mention coast to coast 99% of the people who call in are total goof balls 
> But 1% are real I know that for a fact.


The man who is interested in driving out says that he has millions available. 
As for me, I want to make those measurements, so that I can put this to rest, 
once and for all.


 As far as Coast to Coast, it's way more than 1%. George has lots of 
scientists on there. Then there's Richard C Hoagland, www.enterpr
isemission.com . But I'm not going to argue the matter with you.
> 
> 
> Because someone I have known for 4 years called in and described the world 
> trade tower distater basically as it happened. A year before it happened 
> and after it happened Art Bell played the tape of the call and the guy was 
> listening when he did. Figure that one out. With your theories. 


Sure, all you had to do was type Twin Towers into a Bible Code program. Of 
course you have to know Hebrew in order to get this to work. If you of you 
people doubt this, purchase a copy of Michael Drosnin's Bible Code II. He 
didn't find these clusters until after the event, but the clusters say that 
the Twin Towers will fall, and that an airplane will be involved, A second 
cluster says that the Pentagon will be damaged. A third cluster says that an 
Eqyptian man, the Terrorist Atta, would be involved, A fourth cluster say  
that the criminal Bin Laudin will be involved.


It has also come to my attention that the El Queda members said that they 
would try to destroy the WTC a second time, and that they would use 
airplanes.
> 
> 
> While I'm at it  Tom in a mail to me you said jack you believe anything you 
> here on the net that is  what you called crack pot theories.  Then you said 
> we would all be saved soon when I guess jesus returns.  And I said where 
> did you here that crack pot theory.   THAT told you were one of the 99% 
> goof ball types that call in to Coast to Coast                  What does 
> it tell you TOM ????  


I never said that everyone was going to be saved, only those who repent of 
their sins. If you don't like my scenario, then try to save your self! It's 
obvious to me that with all of it's promises, the world condition continues 
to deteriorate.

If you people doubt me, just check out what I found when I did a Google 
search of Parens Patriae, http://www.barefootsworld.net/parensp.html
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> SMALL world&nbsp; Call Thermo King To get in touch with=
 Warren.. Millions we are interested. Just the visual alone is all that is n=
ecessary you will not need any meters. Understand it is a two trillion dolla=
r.technology&nbsp; We are not even going to manuf. It is totally obsolete to=
 us . And it is the most advanced situation on this planet.&nbsp; NOTHING ev=
en comes remotely close.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
OK you have a Bible Explanation that figures. You have to find someway to ex=
plain it. They could have predicted it also. But they did not call Art Bell=20=
did they?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HE DID&nbsp; He saw it in a remote view&nb=
sp; then figured out what it was.&nbsp; 99.999999% cannot even imagine somet=
hing of that magnitude.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
HOW many of you know ????Casinos Employ remote viewers to pick out the peopl=
e that can win consistently.&nbsp; THe trick&nbsp; to get around them if can=
 win the majoroty of the time. You always have someone that stands behind yo=
u when your playing,&nbsp; that as acting as a block so they cannot sense yo=
u. THey are like dogs with a senetive sence of smell. My understanding is TH=
ey have to actually see you to be able to sense you.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/2/03 2:=
29:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:</FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; TOM&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I just remembered&nbsp;&nbsp; The Thermo King Corp. On=
 90 Th. Street&nbsp; in Minneapolis where you live&nbsp; has a CD with demos=
 on it, of operational technologies. You CAN&nbsp; contact Warren Ophiem he=20=
is a M.E.&nbsp; I left it there&nbsp; in MAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Before you wa=
tch it just forget what you know about electrical theory. Or you will be tot=
ally lost if you attempt to use it. BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it. </F=
ONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FA=
MILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
Warren used to come to MN Tesla Society meetings. I'm disappointed that he d=
idn't contact us about this. Do you have an email address, or other contact=20=
information?<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><BR>
You were talking about coming here, unless your and your friends have millio=
ns do not waste your time. Unless you want to it is up to you.&nbsp; You men=
tion coast to coast 99% of the people who call in are total goof balls But 1=
% are real I know that for a fact.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
The man who is interested in driving out says that he has millions available=
. As for me, I want to make those measurements, so that I can put this to re=
st, once and for all.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 As far as Coast to Coast, it's way more than 1%. George has lots of scienti=
sts on there. Then there's Richard C Hoagland, www.enterprisemission.com . B=
ut I'm not going to argue the matter with you.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Because someone I have known for 4 years called in and d=
escribed the world trade tower distater basically as it happened. A year bef=
ore it happened and after it happened Art Bell played the tape of the call a=
nd the guy was listening when he did. Figure that one out. With your theorie=
s. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
Sure, all you had to do was type Twin Towers into a Bible Code program. Of c=
ourse you have to know Hebrew in order to get this to work. If you of you pe=
ople doubt this, purchase a copy of Michael Drosnin's Bible Code II. He didn=
't find these clusters until after the event, but the clusters say that the=20=
Twin Towers will fall, and that an airplane will be involved, A second clust=
er says that the Pentagon will be damaged. A third cluster says that an Eqyp=
tian man, the Terrorist Atta, would be involved, A fourth cluster say&nbsp;=20=
that the criminal Bin Laudin will be involved.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It has also come to my attention that the El Queda members said that they wo=
uld try to destroy the WTC a second time, and that they would use airplanes.=
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>While I'm at it&nbsp; Tom in a mail to me you said jack=20=
you believe anything you here on the net that is&nbsp; what you called crack=
 pot theories.&nbsp; Then you said we would all be saved soon when I guess j=
esus returns.&nbsp; And I said where did you here that crack pot theory.&nbs=
p;&nbsp; THAT told you were one of the 99% goof ball types that call in to C=
oast to Coast&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What does it tell you TOM ????&nbsp;=
 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I never said that everyone w=
as going to be saved, only those who repent of their sins. If you don't like=
 my scenario, then try to save your self! It's obvious to me that with all o=
f it's promises, the world condition continues to deteriorate.<BR>
<BR>
If you people doubt me, just check out what I found when I did a Google sear=
ch of Parens Patriae, http://www.barefootsworld.net/parensp.html<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:52:01 EST
Subject: Re: Towards a Theory of Everything
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       WHO cares about which or witch    IT IS A TOTALLY MOOT POINT  Period  
IS the book is about Anti Gravity? If not I do not think he would be 
interested. But will forward it on . I have always made sense  but in the 22 
Nd century. Where  It is common knowledge   PUT that in your pipe and smoke 
it 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; <B>WHO cares about which or witch&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IT IS A TOTA=
LLY MOOT POINT&nbsp; Period&nbsp; IS the book is about Anti Gravity? If not=20=
I do not think he would be interested. But will forward it on . I have alway=
s made sense&nbsp; but in the 22 Nd century. Where&nbsp; It is common knowle=
dge&nbsp;&nbsp; PUT that in your pipe and smoke it </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 20:10:47 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1da.4450b44.2b9580d3 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:08:51 EST
Subject: YOU NEED to Understand TOM thermo King In Minn Has a demo CD
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              I tosted 4 of there best ENG. at Thermo King THey were 
clueless. Warren Is a nice guy and a M.E  But  He was lost as the rest of 
them I drive up in 100,000 car  and waste them. With Technology totally 
beyond their understanding At there world HQ  on Top of that   If Warren 
would have brough that disk to your meetings he would not have been able to 
explain it.  REmember he is an ENG<      TOM    DO you Get the POINT NOW>  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; I tosted 4 of there=
 best ENG. at Thermo King THey were clueless. Warren Is a nice guy and a M.E=
&nbsp; But&nbsp; He was lost as the rest of them I drive up in 100,000 car&n=
bsp; and waste them. With Technology totally beyond their understanding At t=
here world HQ&nbsp; on Top of that&nbsp;&nbsp; If Warren would have brough t=
hat disk to your meetings he would not have been able to explain it.&nbsp; R=
Emember he is an ENG&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TOM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 DO you Get the POINT NOW&gt;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 21:05:41 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:03:16 EST
Subject: Re: the nature of the longitudinal wave
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    LET ME  say you cannot create them. Instead of generate. But you can 
convert. Your think that wnen your conducting a situation that  your creating 
because of the situation your conducting. But actually your converting 
BECAUSE power has to come from somewhere 

 Converting is totally not the way because it is not natural. But using it 
is.  Science will have a very difficult time in readjusting the bases of 
their thinking dramatically. Because the theory first thinking has to go. 
Splitting a molecule of water is not natural because the by product is oxygen 
That turns to water vapor that recombines with dirty hydrogen in the 
atmosphere because it is polluted by fossil fuels The result is acid rain 
with is a bigger problem than fossil fuels. Science only sees half the 
equation.  Can anyone see the other half.?????    YOU have to look for it. 
You cannot assume 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 21:27:57 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <fstenger suite224.net>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HAWT DAWG! 
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:23:33 -0600
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How does it work?
Very Simple, mount a Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine (HAWT) generator , on a U-Haul
trailer pulled by your battery or fuel cell powered vehicle, and use the electricity
to recharge the batteries or electrolyze water.

The wind thrust T = 2(pi)R^2pV^2a(1 - a)      a ~ = 0.5

The wind power P = 2(pi)R^2V^3a(1 - a)^2

The wind Energy E = 1/2 (Pi)R^2pV^3

C.O.P. = P/E   51 Mph (75 ft/sec) =  4.2e5/1.0e5 = 4.2

Should just about do it when you get up to speed. It will revolutionize
transportation, so to speak. :-)

WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER.

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 23:29:22 2003
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: HAWT DAWG!


> How does it work?
> Very Simple, mount a Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine (HAWT) generator , on a U-Haul
> trailer pulled by your battery or fuel cell powered vehicle, and use the electricity
> to recharge the batteries or electrolyze water.
>
> The wind thrust T = 2(pi)R^2pV^2a(1 - a)      a ~ = 0.5
>
> The wind power P = 2(pi)R^2pV^3a(1 - a)^2
>
> The wind Energy E = 1/2 (Pi)R^2pV^3
>
> C.O.P. = P/E   51 Mph (75 ft/sec) =  4.2e5/1.0e5 = 4.2
Correction:     (p = density of air)

k = 2(pi)R^2*p

T =  k(V)^2*a(1 - a) = k(75)^2* 0.5^2 = k(1.406e3)

P = k(V)^3*a(1 - a)^2 = k(75)^3*0.5(1 - 0.5)^2 = k(5.25e4)

E = 0.25k(V)^3 = k(1.05e5)

C.O.P = P/E = k(5.25e4)/k(1.05e5) = 5.25e4/1.05e5 = 0.497

IOW, Never let your enthusiasm outweigh your common sense.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 23:44:20 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:43:05 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: anti Spam ..... Reporting Spammers
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John -

http://www.spamcop.com

- Rick



>	Is "Spamcop" a place to report Spam?
>	
>	Or is this a product?	
>
>	Do they have URL?
>
>				Thanks,
>						JH
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  3 23:54:44 2003
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Keith wrote:

>Hi Rick.
>
>You are sadly mistaken if you think we'll ever
>see an end to spam. For it is said, "Even a blind
>squirrel will occasionally find a nut". And there
>will ALWAYS be someone who responds, given a large
>enough exposure. As we have seen.

Well, not an absolute end of course, but I think we're at the edge of a deflation of the fad as Jed suggests. Eventuallly I think the smtp protocol will be replaced where there is some sort of verification built in to make people accountable. Then it would be just like your phone where you block calls which don't show the phone number of the source. Maybe ...  I hope.

- Rick

P.S.  - Didn't hear anything more about the electrifying docs. Aluminum strips were inserted in the board gaps every few feet, and trim along edges or ends of the planks. Wish I'd have seen it before they 'fixed' it.

- R


>Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.
>Or so it seems to me.
>
>K.
>
>PS: What happened to that Hawaiian dock that
>self charged? Can you give us a follow up?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 00:11:10 2003
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:10:54 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Larson's theory of everything
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Fellow Vortexians;

rather than post several messages, Since this all concerns the TOE, I 
have decided to put several threads into one message.

hamdi ucar posted;


According my approach, vacuum or void is not a physical entity. It 
have no property. Actually a true void can not exist in a continuum 
determined by the property of the matter.

Hum, my  Broker, Leon, is reading Patterns of the Void, Why Nothing 
is Important. I assume that there is something there that causes the 
subatomic particles to aggregate, but you know what happens when you 
assume. I'm wondering if you have any comments on that book? Leon 
recommends it, but then, what he brokers real estate, so he's easy to 
impress. The book is available through the Scientific Book Club.

According to Larson, time isn't a dimension, it's a continium, that 
means that you can only go one way in it. I like it because it fits 
with my theology.

Someone mentioned the Genesis Project. Did Randall Mill's patent finally issue?

Then there is electrolyzers. I have been told that the researcher 
Purharich built a resonant frequency electrolyzer which was over unit.

Then there is the Spam problem. I just purchased a program with will 
bounce the offending emails back to their return address. This was 
necessiated by the pornographic spamers. I'm sure you all can 
appreciate how offensive a religious fanatic like me finds 
pornography. I'd like to find those bastards, and set fire to their 
houses, with them in it!

Then there is the ethanol matter. Jed has the misguided idea that 
corn is food. This is because he has never tried to eat it! He is 
also not a farmer, and has no clue about the economic problems faced 
by them. Ethanol is a fuel additive, you have a choice, ethanol, 
tetraethyllead, or tertarybutaleather as a fuel additives, of the 
three, I prefer ethanol. But I am prejudiced however, because I work 
for farmers.

Finally there is the Jack Carey matter. If you listen to Jack long 
enough, he occasionally  makes sense. He has offered to let me test 
his energy amplifier with a water heater. I am going to meet my 
associate tomorrow morning and present this matter to him. He is 
attempting to take the world record for the longest distance, driven 
on a single charge, by a battery powered automobile. If the energy 
amplifier does what Jack says it will, it would allow the car to 
recharge itself. This would be a good thing!

'I have previously suggested to my associate, that a Piantelli type 
fusion reactor might do the same thing, but Dr. Piantelli has chosen 
to ignore my emails about using his patent, as has Fiat. Other than C 
F, I have no idea how to accomplish this.

The bottom line is that if Jack has an energy amplifier, than he is 
part of a team that  has done what various researchers who have 
posted on this forum have attempted to do, and can be forgiven his 
abrasive behavior.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 06:28:04 2003
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Message-ID: <20030304142603.23798.qmail web40413.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:26:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HAWT DAWG! 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Son..  You been redin too many of my postins.  Just cool yer jets and
tell us whhere ya found this ya hear?  :-)

--- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> How does it work?
> Very Simple, mount a Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine (HAWT) generator , on
> a U-Haul
> trailer pulled by your battery or fuel cell powered vehicle, and use
> the electricity
> to recharge the batteries or electrolyze water.
> 
> The wind thrust T = 2(pi)R^2pV^2a(1 - a)      a ~ = 0.5
> 
> The wind power P = 2(pi)R^2V^3a(1 - a)^2
> 
> The wind Energy E = 1/2 (Pi)R^2pV^3
> 
> C.O.P. = P/E   51 Mph (75 ft/sec) =  4.2e5/1.0e5 = 4.2
> 
> Should just about do it when you get up to speed. It will revolutionize
> transportation, so to speak. :-)
> 
> WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Frederick
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: HAWT DAWG!

Charles wrote:


> Son..  You been redin too many of my postins.  Just cool yer jets and
> tell us where ya found this ya hear?  :-)
>

I thunk it up. :-)

Actually the Power (watts) of a HAWT = 0.5*p*V^3*A, where (p) is the air density in
kg/meter^3 (~ 1.1), velocity (V) is in meters/sec (~ 27   51 mph) and area (A) =
(pi)R^2 about 3.14 meter^2 for a 2 meter diameter prop.

This calculates out to 21 kw   51 mph (minus efficiency losses).

Thus, if the required cruising power of the vehicle is ~15 Kw, you're "on the road
again" after you get up to speed.  :-)

The C.O.P. (P/E)  is a ratio of derived wind power over theoretical wind energy
through the swept volume.

> --- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> > How does it work?
> > Very Simple, mount a Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine (HAWT) generator , on
> > a U-Haul
> > trailer pulled by your battery or fuel cell powered vehicle, and use
> > the electricity
> > to recharge the batteries or electrolyze water.
> >
> > The wind thrust T = 2(pi)R^2pV^2a(1 - a)      a ~ = 0.5
> >
> > The wind power P = 2(pi)R^2V^3a(1 - a)^2
> >
> > The wind Energy E = 1/2 (Pi)R^2pV^3
> >
> > C.O.P. = P/E   51 Mph (75 ft/sec) =  4.2e5/1.0e5 = 4.2
> >
> > Should just about do it when you get up to speed. It will revolutionize
> > transportation, so to speak. :-)
> >
> > WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Frederick
> >
>
>
> =====
> Charles Ford
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 07:43:57 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1a2.11699582.2b9622e6 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:40:22 EST
Subject: Re: Larson's theory of everything
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In a message dated 3/4/03 3:11:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Fellow Vortexians;
> 
> rather than post several messages, Since this all concerns the TOE, I 
> have decided to put several threads into one message.
> 
> hamdi ucar posted;
> 
> 
> According my approach, vacuum or void is not a physical entity. It 
> have no property. Actually a true void can not exist in a continuum 
> determined by the property of the matter.
> 
> Hum, my  Broker, Leon, is reading Patterns of the Void, Why Nothing 
> is Important. I assume that there is something there that causes the 
> subatomic particles to aggregate, but you know what happens when you 
> assume. I'm wondering if you have any comments on that book? Leon 
> recommends it, but then, what he brokers real estate, so he's easy to 
> impress. The book is available through the Scientific Book Club.
>      REPLY  Leon  has the correct mind set which is the simple one Whearas 
> the Sci. thinks in totally complacated terms He will understand more 
> because he does not have the roadblocks the Sci. ones do 
> According to Larson, time isn't a dimension, it's a continium, that 
> means that you can only go one way in it. I like it because it fits 
> with my theology.
>   REPLY  I suggest you ask the tech.  whatever he tells you is.  
> Someone mentioned the Genesis Project. Did Randall Mill's patent finally 
> issue?
>   Reply Who cares it is not going anywhere anyway
> Then there is electrolyzers. I have been told that the researcher 
> Purharich built a resonant frequency electrolyzer which was over unit.
>   REPLY  You just do understand 
> Then there is the Spam problem. I just purchased a program with will 
> bounce the offending emails back to their return address. This was 
> necessiated by the pornographic spamers. I'm sure you all can 
> appreciate how offensive a religious fanatic like me finds 
> pornography. I'd like to find those bastards, and set fire to their 
> houses, with them in it!
>   REPLY   that is your roadblock that keeps you from evolving It was 
> instilled in you for a reason it is called control  But you will never 
> figured it out because your programed now    SEnd those mails to me please 
> Then there is the ethanol matter. Jed has the misguided idea that 
> corn is food. This is because he has never tried to eat it! He is 
> also not a farmer, and has no clue about the economic problems faced 
> by them. Ethanol is a fuel additive, you have a choice, ethanol, 
> tetraethyllead, or tertarybutaleather as a fuel additives, of the 
> three, I prefer ethanol. But I am prejudiced however, because I work 
> for farmers.
>   JED is a know it all Moron I have spoken with him on the phone before. 
> You have the knowledge he does not but thinks he does. that is the prime 
> problem on vortex they think they know it all  Just ask them they will tell 
> you    I know I do not have that knowledge that you do about that subject. 
> Wayne did because he grew up on a farm. 

   I'm a city boy  You have it because of first hand experience  THAT is the  
>>MAJOR KEY << to  how you obtain knowledge  > Not out of a BOOK  Which is 
> only an opinion Which is all Theory is. MAXWELL did not have first hand 
> experience  Neither did Einstein or Hawking.  But both have something in 
> common which is a very open mind.  

   THAT Is the second  MAJOR KEY   And is why Einstein worked with Tesla  in 
order to learn Plus Tesla 
> learned from him  Which is the third MAJOR KEY   NOW YOU have them all that 
> are needed if you wish to attain the complete equation of knowledge.    
> KALUZA  Then Kline was able to see it as Kaluza did  because they looked at 
> it from a different Dimension that Einstein could only barley see. Now you 
> know where many of the  answers were found.  

> Tesla was the absolute because he could accomplish the complete equation    
> Newton  had to use experiences to develop theory  remember the apple. ??? 
> Because he basically had no bases to use as a guide.  DA Vinchy was like 
> Tesla   Now you have the formula in order to attain the complete equation 
> of knowledge  Which will provide you will the KEY that will allow you to 
> evolve if you wish to   See how easy it is. Now look for solutions      95% 
> of you  have it backwards   I had One called from Vortex from Conn.   He 
> was smart he investigated jrd803 aol.com
> Finally there is the Jack Carey matter. If you listen to Jack long 
> enough, he occasionally  makes sense. He has offered to let me test 
> his energy amplifier with a water heater.
  REPLY WHY don't you ever listen because you fall for the shit they feed you 
is why     it is the same as the religious thinking  you go to far with it 
and it creates more roadblocks.  That you must love to create to create for 
yourself and a closed mind    It is called a vicious circle only you can 
break it is a BOX  Companies pay me for this type of advice. witch which that 
is Nit picking 

 I do that on purpose then i change then go back to it  It is called mind 
games with correct english types.  Mind games are my favorite pasttime  Your 
easy because you so set in your ways.  I'm always looking for someone better 
than me at mind games  so i can learn new tricks. But i have not found anyone 
yet that is .   

 No one except a situation that just laid there hands on 100 million so they 
claim that sent me an NDA yesterday in regard to helping them has ever 
figured it out what I'm doing    But my grammar is poor  But could be more 
correct but i'm lazy   Then I'm forced to think then   Screw that it is to 
much work 
    I am going to meet my > 
> associate tomorrow morning and present this matter to him. He is 
> attempting to take the world record for the longest distance, driven 
> on a single charge, by a battery powered automobile. If the energy 
> amplifier does what Jack says it will, it would allow the car to 
> recharge itself. This would be a good thing!
>    REPLY   Again  you do not understand that is a different tech. that was 
> being constructed when Wayne died. That Mott saw being built. WE are not 
> going to build that either it appears. But could  or the phase conversion. 
> Amplifier is the incorrect term. I need to explain the concept your not 
> grasping it at all it appears.   .your not coming here until you at least 
> attempt to you need to call me 810 618 9234 Not the tech.  
> 'I have previously suggested to my associate, that a Piantelli type 
> fusion reactor might do the same thing, but Dr. Piantelli has chosen 
> to ignore my emails about using his patent, as has Fiat. Other than C 
> F, I have no idea how to accomplish this.
>     REPLY  that is insanity to considered that
> The bottom line is that if Jack has an energy amplifier, than he is 
> part of a team that  has done what various researchers who have 
> posted on this forum have attempted to do, and can be forgiven his 
> abrasive behavior.
> REPLY   i only attack ignorance and throw it in their face when they cop an 
> attitude
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/4/03=
 3:11:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Fellow Vortexians;<BR>
<BR>
rather than post several messages, Since this all concerns the TOE, I <BR>
have decided to put several threads into one message.<BR>
<BR>
hamdi ucar posted;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
According my approach, vacuum or void is not a physical entity. It <BR>
have no property. Actually a true void can not exist in a continuum <BR>
determined by the property of the matter.<BR>
<BR>
Hum, my&nbsp; Broker, Leon, is reading Patterns of the Void, Why Nothing <BR=
>
is Important. I assume that there is something there that causes the <BR>
subatomic particles to aggregate, but you know what happens when you <BR>
assume. I'm wondering if you have any comments on that book? Leon <BR>
recommends it, but then, what he brokers real estate, so he's easy to <BR>
impress. The book is available through the Scientific Book Club.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Leon&nbsp; has the correct mind set whi=
ch is the simple one Whearas the Sci. thinks in totally complacated terms He=
 will understand more because he does not have the roadblocks the Sci. ones=20=
do <BR>
According to Larson, time isn't a dimension, it's a continium, that <BR>
means that you can only go one way in it. I like it because it fits <BR>
with my theology.<BR>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; I suggest you ask the tech.&nbsp; whatever he tells you i=
s.&nbsp; <BR>
Someone mentioned the Genesis Project. Did Randall Mill's patent finally iss=
ue?<BR>
&nbsp; Reply Who cares it is not going anywhere anyway<BR>
Then there is electrolyzers. I have been told that the researcher <BR>
Purharich built a resonant frequency electrolyzer which was over unit.<BR>
&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; You just do understand <BR>
Then there is the Spam problem. I just purchased a program with will <BR>
bounce the offending emails back to their return address. This was <BR>
necessiated by the pornographic spamers. I'm sure you all can <BR>
appreciate how offensive a religious fanatic like me finds <BR>
pornography. I'd like to find those bastards, and set fire to their <BR>
houses, with them in it!<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; that is your roadblock that keeps you from evolv=
ing It was instilled in you for a reason it is called control&nbsp; But you=20=
will never figured it out because your programed now&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEnd=20=
those mails to me please </B><BR>
Then there is the ethanol matter. Jed has the misguided idea that <BR>
corn is food. This is because he has never tried to eat it! He is <BR>
also not a farmer, and has no clue about the economic problems faced <BR>
by them. Ethanol is a fuel additive, you have a choice, ethanol, <BR>
tetraethyllead, or tertarybutaleather as a fuel additives, of the <BR>
three, I prefer ethanol. But I am prejudiced however, because I work <BR>
for farmers.<BR>
&nbsp;<B> JED is a know it all Moron I have spoken with him on the phone bef=
ore. You have the knowledge he does not but thinks he does. that is the prim=
e problem on vortex they think they know it all&nbsp; Just ask them they wil=
l tell you&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I know I do not have that knowledge that you do=
 about that subject. Wayne did because he grew up on a farm. </FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>I'm a city b=
oy&nbsp; You have it because of first hand experience&nbsp; THAT is the&nbsp=
; &gt;&gt;MAJOR KEY &lt;&lt; to&nbsp; how you obtain knowledge&nbsp; <BLOCKQ=
UOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Not out of a BOOK&nbsp; Which is only=20=
an opinion Which is all Theory is. MAXWELL did not have first hand experienc=
e&nbsp; Neither did Einstein or Hawking.&nbsp; But both have something in co=
mmon which is a very open mind.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT Is the second&nbsp; MAJOR KEY&nbsp;&nbsp; And is why Ei=
nstein worked with Tesla&nbsp; in order to learn Plus Tesla </FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>learned from him&nbsp; Which is the third MAJOR KEY&nbsp=
;&nbsp; NOW YOU have them all that are needed if you wish to attain the comp=
lete equation of knowledge.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; KALUZA&nbsp; Then Kline was ab=
le to see it as Kaluza did&nbsp; because they looked at it from a different=20=
Dimension that Einstein could only barley see. Now you know where many of th=
e&nbsp; answers were found.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Tesla was the absolute because he could accomplish the c=
omplete equation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Newton&nbsp; had to use experiences to de=
velop theory&nbsp; remember the apple. ??? Because he basically had no bases=
 to use as a guide.&nbsp; DA Vinchy was like Tesla&nbsp;&nbsp; Now you have=20=
the formula in order to attain the complete equation of knowledge&nbsp; Whic=
h will provide you will the KEY that will allow you to evolve if you wish to=
&nbsp;&nbsp; See how easy it is. Now look for solutions&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; 95% of you&nbsp; have it backwards&nbsp;&nbsp; I had One called fr=
om Vortex from Conn.&nbsp;&nbsp; He was smart he investigated jrd803 aol.com=
</B><BR>
Finally there is the Jack Carey matter. If you listen to Jack long <BR>
enough, he occasionally&nbsp; makes sense. He has offered to let me test <BR=
>
his energy amplifier with a water heater.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" sty=
le=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial=
" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY WHY don't you ever listen because you fall for the shit they=
 feed you is why&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it is the same as the religious thi=
nking&nbsp; you go to far with it and it creates more roadblocks.&nbsp; That=
 you must love to create to create for yourself and a closed mind&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; It is called a vicious circle only you can break it is a BOX&nbsp; C=
ompanies pay me for this type of advice. witch which that is Nit picking <BR=
>
<BR>
 I do that on purpose then i change then go back to it&nbsp; It is called mi=
nd games with correct english types.&nbsp; Mind games are my favorite pastti=
me&nbsp; Your easy because you so set in your ways.&nbsp; I'm always looking=
 for someone better than me at mind games&nbsp; so i can learn new tricks. B=
ut i have not found anyone yet that is .&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 No one except a situation that just laid there hands on 100 million so they=
 claim that sent me an NDA yesterday in regard to helping them has ever figu=
red it out what I'm doing&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But my grammar is poor&nbsp; But=
 could be more correct but i'm lazy&nbsp;&nbsp; Then I'm forced to think the=
n&nbsp;&nbsp; Screw that it is to much work </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am goin=
g to meet my <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid=
; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
associate tomorrow morning and present this matter to him. He is <BR>
attempting to take the world record for the longest distance, driven <BR>
on a single charge, by a battery powered automobile. If the energy <BR>
amplifier does what Jack says it will, it would allow the car to <BR>
recharge itself. This would be a good thing!<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Again&nbsp; you do not understand that is=20=
a different tech. that was being constructed when Wayne died. That Mott saw=20=
being built. WE are not going to build that either it appears. But could&nbs=
p; or the phase conversion. Amplifier is the incorrect term. I need to expla=
in the concept your not grasping it at all it appears.&nbsp;&nbsp; .your not=
 coming here until you at least attempt to you need to call me 810 618 9234=20=
Not the tech.&nbsp; </B><BR>
'I have previously suggested to my associate, that a Piantelli type <BR>
fusion reactor might do the same thing, but Dr. Piantelli has chosen <BR>
to ignore my emails about using his patent, as has Fiat. Other than C <BR>
F, I have no idea how to accomplish this.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; that is insanity to considered that</B><BR=
>
The bottom line is that if Jack has an energy amplifier, than he is <BR>
part of a team that&nbsp; has done what various researchers who have <BR>
posted on this forum have attempted to do, and can be forgiven his <BR>
abrasive behavior.<BR>
<B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; i only attack ignorance and throw it in their face when=
 they cop an attitude<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 07:44:11 2003
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:42:19 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
In-Reply-To: <013a01c2e1f1$f9f5d200$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc>
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jonfli wrote:

>Jed,
>
>Although I didn't make myself clear, I think the article's reference to 
>~50% efficiency was for the complete two stage conversion system. That is, 
>electrical energy into the electrolysis conversion, then hydrogen/oxygen 
>to the fuel cell with electrical energy out. This could place the 
>electrolysis efficiency at  ~65% as you state, leaving the fuel cell 
>at  ~77% which sounds reasonable.

Ah, well, if that is what you mean, that number is unrealistically high. 
According to the PG&E document and several other references, fuel cell 
efficiency in 1990 was 40%, and it was expected to reach 50% in 2020. 
However, I have read that a few fuel cells have already reached 
approximately 60% under ideal conditions. I doubt they could be ~77%.

This is still marvelous efficiency compared to most competing systems. 
However, the most efficient transportation remains the pure electric 
vehicle, either battery powered or wired, such as the electric car, subway, 
electric locomotive (pantograph) or trolley car (trolley connection).

I have a 1993 book published by NREL with very helpful tables and graphs 
summarizing transportation and electric utility efficiency and conversion 
methods. Most of the info is still current. It is not copyright, so if 
there is demand for it; i.e., if several people would like to see it, I 
could scan the 37 page appendices.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 08:10:49 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEBKDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>source. I believe that the reason for corn is more economic, as a hedge 
>against fluxuation in the price of this staple.

As far as I can tell, the reason is that lobbyists have convinced the 
Congress to rip off the taxpayer for billions of dollars. There is no 
technical justification for the program. It causes massive pollution and 
wastes billions of dollars worth of fuel. It is an utterly pointless 
conversion of 1.7 MJ of oil into 1.0 MJ of ethanol plus a large pool of 
filthy, toxic water and ruined land. It would be cheaper to simply hand 
over a $724 million per year bribe to the farmers and OPEC, and to tell 
them to stop wasting oil and polluting the air and water.


>In my neighborhood, which I'm afraid is quite unlike Mr. Rogers, the poor 
>collect glass and metal. They don't have SUV's, so they use
>grocery store carts which they "borrow". On my block, it's either an 
>ancient chinese woman dressed in traditional rural clothes, or an middle 
>aged american black man. They're both reasonably respectful of the trash, 
>no one tries to stop them. Anyway, it's a pretty efficient system (fuel 
>wise) for generating a product stream . . .

If it was an efficient system, the people collecting the materials would 
earn a living wage and they would not be poor. It is a dreadfully 
inefficient system. The labor is not fit for human beings. It should be 
done by robots. In the future I expect it will be.

Last night I read a fascinating account written by a 23-year old American 
guy in 1904, who went around the world as a sailor and vagabond. He was 
wandering and hiking around Hiroshima prefecture at the height of the 
Russo-Japanese war. He caused a commotion everywhere he went, and was 
arrested as a spy in most villages and towns. His description of the 
countryside & people sounds a lot like the way I found them 71 years later. 
Anyway, getting back to the subject, the last leg of the journey was on a 
"windjammer" (sailing ship). Talk about a marginal, uneconomical, inhuman 
means of transportation! It was about as close to slavery as you can get. 
People who think the past was romantic and there was something noble about 
such obsolete technology deserve to spend a week working with it. We can't 
set them to work before the mast, but I might be able to arrange a 
week-long session programming an accounting application on a 1979 64-KB 
minicomputer with a 12 MB disk.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 08:28:22 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:25:40 EST
Subject: Herman why haven't you called in order to understand the concept 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, rick@highsurf.com
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       J H   why haven't you ever called so you could be able to possibly 
understand this new electrical concept So you could have a bases to use for 
understanding before discussing in  mail    that would appear to be the most 
logical thing to do wouldn't it         I just do not see any LOGIC  from 
SCI. types why???   I guess  LOGIC is something you do not need if you think 
you know all there is to know.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 09:42:07 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:57:29 -0500
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Jed writes:
>As far as I can tell, the reason is that lobbyists have convinced the 
>Congress to rip off the taxpayer for billions of dollars. There is no 
>technical justification for the program.

Yes, technically it would be rather foolish to use corn
to generate ethanol for fuel. However, if you're looking for a 
sink for excess production in years when the price is threathened
by a glut, ethanol can be an attractive option. 

We currently have a commodities market to help spread risk,
but in the end if we wish to have any sort of real local food
production we need to provide some support to farmers. How
that happens is a good subject for debate, but probably not
in this forum. No one is suggesting we directly grow
corn for fuel, except maybe the lobbyists for ADM. 

>If it was an efficient system, the people collecting the materials would 
>earn a living wage and they would not be poor. It is a dreadfully 
>inefficient system. The labor is not fit for human beings. It should be 
>done by robots. In the future I expect it will be.

Sure. I suppose when that time comes you can pay me a visit
and explain to that old chinese woman that what little income
she can squeeze from recycling has been eliminated. Then we
can watch her slowly starve over the course of a few months.

Robot utopia, huh? Maybe for the robots, but for us humans it's
going to be hell, I can assure you. Todays assignment: go to
the library and check out a copy of "Player Piano", written
by that boozy old humanist Kurt Vonnegut. Is this what you want?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 09:44:02 2003
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:42:55 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: My breakfast with F
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I met with F this morning. He is interested in Jack Carey's device. 
He wants to know if Jack has a patent. I told him that I would ask 
Jack.

F recently filed for a patent on a device which does what Jack says 
that his device does, it produces more electricity than it consumes.

F went on to say that Carl Tilley, www.tilleyfoundation.com , is 
having legal problems, he used the word fraud. He also mentioned a 
significant amount of money that Tilley took from investors. Well, 
that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I explained my desire to do a definitive test on the one of those 
machines so that I can close this matter. To be continued...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 09:55:30 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <ad.2b86a1a2.2b96417e aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:50:54 EST
Subject: Re: Attitude? Please 
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In a message dated 3/4/03 11:07:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
eric voicenet.com writes:


> no,   it is stupid for Ted to make the effort to go down if you are not 
> even willing to change a fuse to help remove ambiguity.     I don't 
> know why anyone would want to help you test given that you seem 
> unwilling to set things up in a way that would make power levels clear.
> 
>           TED would be lucky if he could FLINT    THAT is total BULL S=T    
> HE KNOWS more than Infinite Energy I suppose?  You Morons just do not get 
> it  Someone on another site  said  that cannot be done and they were a 
> skeptic I think you have the mail.

 I'M not a Tech But I do know and it is not rocket science    YOU Have  
SOMETHING CALLED   <<<< SURGE >>>>>  Correct or Incorrect?  when you start 
the converter THEN you have > <<<<SURGE >>>>>> when you start the AIR Com. 
> Your an ENG. you have admitted you do not understand the operational side. 
> He fixes VCR's    Appearently you just do not understand the word surge  

    IF THAT is the case how in the hell can you or him be an expert. IT is 
not possible to be one PERIOD. BUT as > usual both you clowns are. YOU have 
> only one opinion YOUR own. Your totally  blind to the point of being 
> ridicules  and totally moronic       
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/4/03=
 11:07:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">no,&nbsp;&nbsp; it is stupid fo=
r Ted to make the effort to go down if you are not <BR>
even willing to change a fuse to help remove ambiguity.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; I don't <BR>
know why anyone would want to help you test given that you seem <BR>
unwilling to set things up in a way that would make power levels clear.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> TED would be lucky=
 if he could FLINT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THAT is total BULL S=3DT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; HE KNOWS more than Infinite Energy I suppose?&nbsp; You Morons just do n=
ot get it&nbsp; Someone on another site&nbsp; said&nbsp; that cannot be done=
 and they were a skeptic I think you have the mail.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FAC=
E=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> I'M not a Tech But I do kno=
w and it is not rocket science&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU Have&nbsp; SOMETHING CA=
LLED&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; SURGE &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Correct o=
r Incorrect?&nbsp; when you start the converter THEN you have <BLOCKQUOTE TY=
PE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-=
RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;SURGE &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; when you start the AIR Com. Your an ENG. you have admitted you do not unde=
rstand the operational side. He fixes VCR's&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Appearently yo=
u just do not understand the word surge&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>IF THA=
T is the case how in the hell can you or him be an expert. IT is not possibl=
e to be one PERIOD. BUT as <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #00=
00ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">usua=
l both you clowns are. YOU have only one opinion YOUR own. Your totally&nbsp=
; blind to the point of being ridicules&nbsp; and totally moronic&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 10:17:53 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: New Genesis pics
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:28:11 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOECADIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Hi All.

Here's a good page regarding the business side
of Genesis World Energy. A little due diligence
and it's pretty clear what's happening here.

http://members.cox.net/john.lichtenstein/business.htm

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:06 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Genesis pics


In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 02 Mar 2003 13:24:57 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin, you said,
>
>> ...or else it may be a carefully worded infringement of Mills' patent. :)
>
>
>Well, yes but it's not exactly Mills' patent, is it?

No, not exactly, but I simply meant to imply that it might be hydrino based.
I do now remember reading your former post. Sorry if you feel I was stealing
your thunder.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 11:10:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <63.1950c571.2b965327 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:06:15 EST
Subject: Re: My breakfast with F
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/4/03 12:44:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> I met with F this morning. He is interested in Jack Carey's device. 
> He wants to know if Jack has a patent. I told him that I would ask 
> Jack.
>    REPLY  Is he the Guy that created Lil Orbits Donut's  Because if  He is, 
> HIM  and I have spoke on the Phone before.      You only have Pat. Pendings 
> Never A patent as Coke does it. WE will steal RCA's Trademark Process and 
> Improve it.  IF we were going to build the Phase Converter which we are not 
> because it is totally obsolete  Marconi when he Stole Tesla's inventions 
> and created the bases of our modern Communications was a sharp Business 
> man,   and set up one hell of a Trademark situation. Apparently 98% of the 
> people in this group have no understanding of Business. 

    Patents are worthless unless your a large Corp. and can protect them. 
Plus NASA has a key to the back door and will have a nation security 
restriction slapped on anything they want. Then your totally screwed and you 
have no recourse .  THAT is how the the patent gamed is played FYI I should 
be charging 500 an Hour  for this advice.      

 Especially after the laws were change that favored big corp.'s because a Big 
Corp. can steal > them by changing say the screws and if your not on there 
> level you get the shaft. So your friend because of his apparent ignorance 
> will probably get screwed if he has anything.  UNLESS he is a big Business  
> player 

    Please do not insult my intelligence anymore TOM.   I and Peter Linderman 
who is real sharp had a conversation and > agreed we would not have obtained a 
> patent as Bearden did. It is only a tinker toy anyway but if it becomes 
> something,  because there is a patent on it. The national security 
> restrictions will be applied to it. In a New York minute. Because of who 
> the present  administration is it bed with. THat is a 98% call        

> F recently filed for a patent on a device which does what Jack says 
> that his device does, it produces more electricity than it consumes.
>     REPLY FOR the 100 Th. time that is not what is happening  and his does 
> not either.  He does grasp the fact that power has to come from somewhere.  
> IT IS simple but you do not understand simple it appears    You can buy a a 
> gas fire place that burns 99% of the cube of gas. Now your burning per se 
> 99% of the unit of electricity and because of that your not wasting any as 
> you are doing now in operational situations. 

   The same concept  applies in both situations.  BUT Tom you have your mind 
made up. SO be it call it what 
> ever you wish if it makes you happy,   that is all that matters. I'm Tired 
> of belaboring the point with you because it is useless because your totally 
> locked into your world with your theories So stay there. Because your happy 
> there.    

   JED said he would pay 10,000 for something like that and have no rights 
but he is no where to be found 
> when he is called on the mat so to speak when something like that can be 
> provided. Which says he is nothing but a blow hard  

> F went on to say that Carl Tilley, www.tilleyfoundation.com , is 
> having legal problems, he used the word fraud. He also mentioned a 
> significant amount of money that Tilley took from investors. Well, 
> that's the way the cookie crumbles.
> 
> I explained my desire to do a definitive test on the one of those 
> machines so that I can close this matter. To be continued...
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/4/03=
 12:44:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I met with F this morning. He i=
s interested in Jack Carey's device. <BR>
He wants to know if Jack has a patent. I told him that I would ask <BR>
Jack.<BR>
&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Is he the Guy that created Lil Orbits Donut's&nb=
sp; Because if&nbsp; He is, HIM&nbsp; and I have spoke on the Phone before.&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You only have Pat. Pendings Never A patent as=20=
Coke does it. WE will steal RCA's Trademark Process and Improve it.&nbsp; IF=
 we were going to build the Phase Converter which we are not because it is t=
otally obsolete&nbsp; Marconi when he Stole Tesla's inventions and created t=
he bases of our modern Communications was a sharp Business man,&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
and set up one hell of a Trademark situation. Apparently 98% of the people i=
n this group have no understanding of Business. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000=
00" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Patent=
s are worthless unless your a large Corp. and can protect them. Plus NASA ha=
s a key to the back door and will have a nation security restriction slapped=
 on anything they want. Then your totally screwed and you have no recourse .=
&nbsp; THAT is how the the patent gamed is played FYI I should be charging 5=
00 an Hour&nbsp; for this advice.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Especially after the laws were change that favored big corp.'s because a Bi=
g Corp. can steal <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px=20=
solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">them by chang=
ing say the screws and if your not on there level you get the shaft. So your=
 friend because of his apparent ignorance will probably get screwed if he ha=
s anything.&nbsp; UNLESS he is a big Business&nbsp; player </FONT><FONT  COL=
OR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Please=
 do not insult my intelligence anymore TOM.&nbsp;&nbsp; I and Peter Linderma=
n who is real sharp had a conversation and <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"=
BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING=
-LEFT: 5px">agreed we would not have obtained a patent as Bearden did. It is=
 only a tinker toy anyway but if it becomes something,&nbsp; because there i=
s a patent on it. The national security restrictions will be applied to it.=20=
In a New York minute. Because of who the present&nbsp; administration is it=20=
bed with. THat is a 98% call&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FON=
T><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">F recently filed for a patent on a device which does what J=
ack says <BR>
that his device does, it produces more electricity than it consumes.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY FOR the 100 Th. time that is not what is happeni=
ng&nbsp; and his does not either.&nbsp; He does grasp the fact that power ha=
s to come from somewhere.&nbsp; IT IS simple but you do not understand simpl=
e it appears&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can buy a a gas fire place that burns 99%=
 of the cube of gas. Now your burning per se 99% of the unit of electricity=20=
and because of that your not wasting any as you are doing now in operational=
 situations. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></=
B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>The same con=
cept&nbsp; applies in both situations.&nbsp; BUT Tom you have your mind made=
 up. SO be it call it what </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>ever you wish if it makes you happy,&nbsp;&nbsp; that is=
 all that matters. I'm Tired of belaboring the point with you because it is=20=
useless because your totally locked into your world with your theories So st=
ay there. Because your happy there.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> JED said he=20=
would pay 10,000 for something like that and have no rights but he is no whe=
re to be found </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>when he is called on the mat so to speak when something=20=
like that can be provided. Which says he is nothing but a blow hard&nbsp; </=
FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 F=
AMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">F went on to say that Carl Tilley, www.tilleyfoundation.com=
 , is <BR>
having legal problems, he used the word fraud. He also mentioned a <BR>
significant amount of money that Tilley took from investors. Well, <BR>
that's the way the cookie crumbles.<BR>
<BR>
I explained my desire to do a definitive test on the one of those <BR>
machines so that I can close this matter. To be continued...<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Attitude? Please 
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JCarey9622 aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; eric@voicenet.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:50 AM
  Subject: Re: Attitude? Please=20



  >
  >I'M not a Tech But I do know and it is not rocket science    YOU Have =
 SOMETHING CALLED   <<<< SURGE >>>>>  >Correct or Incorrect?  when you =
start >the converter THEN you have ><<<<SURGE >>>>>> when you start the =
AIR >Com. Your an ENG. you have admitted you do not understand the =
operational side. He fixes VCR's    Appearently >you just do not =
understand the word surge=20

  >
  >

    Yes Jack. You have a huge intial Surge on the single phase line that =
the ampmeter reading 9 amperes doesn't register and the 30 amp circuit =
breaker doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breaker trips), then  you have about =
720 SURGES/second that the ampmeter doesn't register.  An ordinary scope =
looking at a 100 shunt will show these spikes of "over-unity power" that =
you are stealing from the power grid.  :-)

    Frederick




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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com"=20
  title=3DJCarey9622 aol.com>JCarey9622@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:eric voicenet.com" =
title=3Deric voicenet.com>eric@voicenet.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 04, 2003 =
11:50=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Attitude? Please =
</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>&gt;<BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 =
size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><STRONG>&gt;I'M not a=20
  Tech But I do know and it is not rocket science&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU=20
  Have&nbsp; SOMETHING CALLED&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; SURGE=20
  &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt;Correct or Incorrect?&nbsp; when you =
start=20
  &gt;the converter THEN you have =
</STRONG><STRONG>&gt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;SURGE=20
  &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when you start the AIR &gt;Com. Your an ENG. =
you have=20
  admitted you do not understand the operational side. He fixes=20
  VCR's&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Appearently &gt;you just do not understand the =
word=20
  surge&nbsp;</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><STRONG>&gt;</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><STRONG>&gt;</STRONG></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><STRONG>
    <DIV>Yes Jack. You have a huge intial Surge on the single phase line =
that=20
    the ampmeter reading 9 amperes doesn't register and the 30 amp =
circuit=20
    breaker doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breaker trips), then &nbsp;you =
have about=20
    720 SURGES/second that the ampmeter doesn't register.&nbsp; An =
ordinary=20
    scope looking at a 100 shunt will show these spikes of "over-unity =
power"=20
    that you are stealing from the power grid.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Frederick</FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 =
size=3D2=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></F=
ONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 11:11:30 2003
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:56:27 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Biomass overhead / luddites, robots
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEBPDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Yes, technically it would be rather foolish to use corn
>to generate ethanol for fuel. However, if you're looking for a
>sink for excess production in years when the price is threathened
>by a glut, ethanol can be an attractive option.

Why? I do not find it even a little bit attractive. It is insane, like 
digging holes and filling them up over and over again for no purpose. It 
would be much better to simply pay off the farmers, and tell them to plant 
nothing and do nothing. It would even be better to dump the excess corn 
into the ocean. Either way we would save a huge amount of energy 
(especially oil) and reduce pollution.


>No one is suggesting we directly grow
>corn for fuel, except maybe the lobbyists for ADM.

LOTS of people are suggesting this! At present, 3 million acres are devoted 
to this purpose, which is 5% of U.S. corn growing land. (Pimentel, p. 264).


> >inefficient system. The labor is not fit for human beings. It should be
> >done by robots. In the future I expect it will be.
>
>Sure. I suppose when that time comes you can pay me a visit
>and explain to that old chinese woman that what little income
>she can squeeze from recycling has been eliminated. Then we
>can watch her slowly starve over the course of a few months.

The is the premise of the movie "The Man in the White Suite," a thoughtful 
comic masterpiece which everyone involved in technology should see. This 
argument goes back to the beginning of the industrial revolution, and the 
Luddites -- who do not deserve the reputation history has assigned them. 
This was beautifully stated by George Gordon, Lord Byron:

"Considerable injury has been done to the proprietors of the improved 
frames. These machines were to them an advantage, inasmuch as they 
superseded the necessity of employing a number of workmen, who were left in 
consequence to starve. By the adoption of one species of frame in 
particular, one man performed the work of many, and the superfluous 
labourers were thrown out of employment. . . . The rejected workmen, in the 
blindness of their ignorance, instead of rejoicing at these improvements in 
arts so beneficial to mankind, conceived themselves to be sacrificed to 
improvements in mechanism. In the foolishness of their hearts they imagined 
that the maintenance and well-doing of the industrious poor were objects of 
greater consequence than the enrichment of a few individuals by an 
improvement, in the implements of trade, which threw the workmen out of 
employment, and rendered the labourer unworthy of his hire."

- George Gordon, Lord Byron, describes the Luddites during the Debate on 
the Frame-work Bill in the House of Lords, February 27, 1812

Naturally, I agree there is merit to this argument. We must not allow 
technology, progress and change to unduly hurt people and leave them 
starving. In 1812 improved frames (looms) tended to concentrate wealth in 
hands of a few. Today, computer hardware and software does the same thing, 
for similar reasons. These trends must be counteracted -- by stiff taxes on 
great wealth if necessary -- to reduce the gap between social classes. We 
cannot have people starving and schools closing a month early for lack of 
funds while corporate executives are paid $300 million per year. A society 
so unbalanced will not endure.

On the other hand, where would we be if Lord Byron and the workmen had 
succeeded? Would anyone like to work all day on early 19th century looms, 
for a pittance? Would you like to do bookkeeping with feather pens and 
bound paper ledger books, adding and subtracting numbers by hand? To do 
such a thing now, when machines can do the work thousands of times faster 
and cheaper, would be the most demeaning job imaginable. It would be worse 
than slavery in a sense. If you were offer people such useless make-work -- 
that everyone knows can be done far better with a machine -- you would be 
telling them you think they are worth less than a $500 handful circuit 
board and 2 cents worth of electricity.


Robot utopia, huh? Maybe for the robots, but for us humans it's
>going to be hell, I can assure you. Todays assignment: go to
>the library and check out a copy of "Player Piano", written
>by that boozy old humanist Kurt Vonnegut. Is this what you want?

Read it. Agree, but trying to turn back the clock is not the answer. Note 
that the hero in that book, Bud, works for the "Petroleum Industries." As 
it happens, I am hoping to bring about the annihilation of the entire 
petroleum industry, even if it means a million people are thrown out of 
work and half the ships in the oceans (oil tankers) are scrapped. I am 
trying to accomplish this by posting obscure scientific papers on a web 
site. This may sound absurd, as if I am suffering from an outlandish case 
of megalomania. But, as it happens, every major technological revolution 
begins when a few people pass around obscure papers and blueprints about 
subjects that most other people dismiss as unimportant -- or as nonsense. 
The petroleum industry began when a social outcast tried a crazy stunt. 
People thought that Edwin L. Drake was nuts, digging a well for oil back in 
1859. The petroleum industry will come to an abrupt end because two 
professors performed a kooky experiment with palladium deuteride around 1985.

As Margaret Mead put it: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, 
committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that 
ever has."

Ultimately, in the distant future, we must find a way to free every person 
from labor. Gourmet food, attractive housing, free education for a 
lifetime, free medical care, and unlimited Internet bandwidth must become 
the birthright of every person, everywhere. Any goal less ambitious would 
be unworthy of our genius as a species, and a betrayal of the suffering of 
our ancestors that has brought us this far. All ordinary goods and services 
must become so cheap, they are virtually free, like running water, paved 
streets and public libraries today. The conflict between capitalism and 
communism should fade away into irrelevance, like the centuries-long 
debates about the proper relations between Samurai and peasants in Japan.

Needless to say, the place to start is with energy. It is the most 
fundamental commodity, and the basis for all wealth.  Every machine, every 
good and service uses energy. It is the cause or the tactical focus of most 
modern wars. *That* is why CF is so important. I see it as the first step 
in the final liberation that will free mankind once and for all from dire 
poverty, wars over resources, tedium, and labor. The only jobs people will 
do in the future will be those they *want* to do, for pleasure, or for the 
challenge, adventure, or to improve the world for themselves, other people 
and other species.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 11:44:10 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject:  Bedini RolerSkate Motor 
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  SIR     I present new tech. situations and create the bases for the 
Business side of planned companies for them. So naturally I forwarded that on 
to the Tech's for a determination.  I do not attempt to make calls on 
something I know basically zero about without proper investigation.   

 As 95% in this group does in regard to new possibly evolutionary Tech. in 
nature situations,  they apparently know nothing about. That appears to be a 
glaring problem in current scientific thinking that was apparently caused by 
an inept EDU. system. That needs to be rectified it appears. 

 If we ever expect to evolve and solve our problems or I guess otherwise we 
will not.      There is one for you WHO would like to respond to that one.  
My call is 95% are gutless because they cannot explain basically anything I 
presented. On top of that to add insult to injury they are supposed to be 
able to.   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; <B>SIR&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; I present new tech. situations and create the bases for the Bus=
iness side of planned companies for them. So naturally I forwarded that on t=
o the Tech's for a determination.&nbsp; I do not attempt to make calls on so=
mething I know basically zero about without proper investigation.&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <BR>
<BR>
 As 95% in this group does in regard to new possibly evolutionary Tech. in n=
ature situations,&nbsp; they apparently know nothing about. That appears to=20=
be a glaring problem in current scientific thinking that was apparently caus=
ed by an inept EDU. system. That needs to be rectified it appears. <BR>
<BR>
 If we ever expect to evolve and solve our problems or I guess otherwise we=20=
will not.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is one for you WHO would like=20=
to respond to that one.&nbsp; My call is 95% are gutless because they cannot=
 explain basically anything I presented. On top of that to add insult to inj=
ury they are supposed to be able to.&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 12:16:12 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: HAWT DAWG, Shot in The Foot!
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At 12:24 AM 3/4/3, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:23 PM
>Subject: Re: HAWT DAWG!
>
>
>> How does it work?
>> Very Simple, mount a Horizontal Axis Wind Turbine (HAWT) generator , on
>>a U-Haul
>> trailer pulled by your battery or fuel cell powered vehicle, and use the
>>electricity
>> to recharge the batteries or electrolyze water.
>>
>> The wind thrust T = 2(pi)R^2pV^2a(1 - a)      a ~ = 0.5
>>
>> The wind power P = 2(pi)R^2pV^3a(1 - a)^2
>>
>> The wind Energy E = 1/2 (Pi)R^2pV^3
>>
>> C.O.P. = P/E   51 Mph (75 ft/sec) =  4.2e5/1.0e5 = 4.2
>Correction:     (p = density of air)
>
>k = 2(pi)R^2*p
>
>T =  k(V)^2*a(1 - a) = k(75)^2* 0.5^2 = k(1.406e3)
>
>P = k(V)^3*a(1 - a)^2 = k(75)^3*0.5(1 - 0.5)^2 = k(5.25e4)
>
>E = 0.25k(V)^3 = k(1.05e5)
>
>C.O.P = P/E = k(5.25e4)/k(1.05e5) = 5.25e4/1.05e5 = 0.497
>
>IOW, Never let your enthusiasm outweigh your common sense.  :-)
>
>Regards,
>
>Frederick

Believe it or not, the idea may actually work in a very limited sense.
That is to say that if the power from the turbine is applied to the wheels,
then at some velocity, no power need be supplied by motor, even if the
device travels directly into the wind!

One interesting aspect of this calculation is due to the fact that there
are TWO velocities of import, vehicle velocity and wind velocity.  Another
is the lift/drag ratio of the propeller used being very important to the
"excess energy" available to either propell the vehicle and/or power
things, as a function of the two velocities.  For maximum efficienty a
variable pitch propeller must be used.

Since you can gear down ANY power obtained from the wind to achieve SOME
torque, the purely wind powered car clearly can make forward progress in
its chosen direction in any situation where the velocity of the car does
not match that of the wind. Some of that available energy can be taken to
charge batteries etc., or just to meet the overhead of inefficiency.

This is one "over unity" [at least it appeared to be such to some
observers, who could barely believe their eyes at the test run, and who
looked for batteries, etc.] idea that I tested and which actually worked,
though not as well as I had hoped.  On a bet, I built a little car out of
Leggo parts that applied the power from a horizontal propeller [from a
rubber band airplane kit] to the rear wheels via a custom built Leggo gear
transmission.  The car performed fairly well on flat level floor, even
directly into the wind, easilyh making "good" progrgress into the wind.
However, to win the bet, I had to make the car travel up a 15 percent grade
diretly into the wind.  I had to gear down to such a low ratio that the
attained velocity was very low, but yet enough to win the bet, as the car
did climb the grade.  A large floor fan was the agreed upon wind source.

Sometime around 1981 I won a free dinner at the restaurant of my choice in
Anchorage, Alaska, because the propeller powered model car I built climbed
to the top of the 15 percent grade ramp against the wind.

Unfortunately, you can't drive your trailer at any speed you choose, so it
is true your idea is not practical.  However, windmill auxillary power for
ships may be cost/benefitial, especially if the rigging can be folded down
on deck during storms.  It is an established fact that moderate sized
rotatable vertical airfoils on the decks of some freighters, on some
freighter routes, can cut fuel costs by 10 to 15 percent.  It is also true
that some cars have been designed to run very efficiently in a cross-wind.

If a car can be made to run faster than normal by use of an airfoil, then
the saved "excess power" the motor would be applying without the airfoil,
is "excess energy" which can be used for any purpose.  Unfortunately, that
excess is only a relative thing.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:31:21 EST
Subject: Re: Attitude? Please BIG SURGE THANK YOU SIR 
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In a message dated 3/4/03 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:


> 
> >> Yes Jack. You have a huge intial Surge on the single phase line that the 
>> ampmeter reading 9 amperes doesn't register and the 30 amp circuit breaker 
>> doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breaker trips), then  you have about 720 
>> SURGES/second that the ampmeter doesn't register.  An ordinary scope 
>> looking at a 100 shunt will show these spikes of "over-unity power" that 
>> you are stealing from the power grid.  :-)
>>  
>> Frederick   

      REPLY     SEE MORON  kreig   You have a Big Surge    SIR NOW for your 
statement of stealing power      
> >> You have a meter that the power Co. provides  CORRECT?  And once current 
>> passes thru that meter it belongs to you CORRECT? What you can accomplish 
>> with that current  is totally your business.  CORRECT?    IS that correct? 
>>  

       YOU apparently have zero understanding of the now wasted aspects that 
are contained in the delivery 
> >> process that you do not currently use that I know of.   WELL  FYI  someone 
>>  became sick and tired of paying for power they  could not benefit from. 

      SO someone figured out how to utilize the wasted aspects instead of 
wasting them as everybody else is.  You want piss away that > >> aspect that 
>> your all ready paying for,  be my guest but we are not that ignorant THANK 
>>  YOU   

     THAT IS no different from drinking a half of a bottle of say beer and 
pouring the remainder down the drain.  
> >> IF I pop a beer open I'm drinking all of it. You do as you please.    

   Just Maybe if you investigated first before you came to a conclusion,  you 
would not make an ignorant of 
> new possible situations call like that. But that would be to easy wouldn't 
> it.   By doing that you made a complete total fool out of yourself.  REAL 
> smart Fred  Kreig Fred is a tad smarter than you are but not by much 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/4/03=
 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Yes Jack. You have a huge in=
tial Surge on the single phase line that the ampmeter reading 9 amperes does=
n't register and the 30 amp circuit breaker doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breake=
r trips), then&nbsp; you have about 720 SURGES/second that the ampmeter does=
n't register.&nbsp; An ordinary scope looking at a 100 shunt will show these=
 spikes of "over-unity power" that you are stealing from the power grid.&nbs=
p; :-)<BR>
 <BR>
Frederick&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOC=
KQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEE MORON&nbsp; kreig&nbsp;&nbsp; You ha=
ve a Big Surge&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SIR NOW for your statement of stealing powe=
r&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px s=
olid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>You have a=20=
meter that the power Co. provides&nbsp; CORRECT?&nbsp; And once current pass=
es thru that meter it belongs to you CORRECT? What you can accomplish with t=
hat current&nbsp; is totally your business.&nbsp; CORRECT?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 IS that correct?&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-=
COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BL=
OCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; <B>YOU apparently have zero understanding of the now wasted aspects=
 that are contained in the delivery </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px s=
olid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>process tha=
t you do not currently use that I know of.&nbsp;&nbsp; WELL&nbsp; FYI&nbsp;=20=
someone&nbsp; became sick and tired of paying for power they&nbsp; could not=
 benefit from. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; <B>SO someone figured out how to utilize the wasted aspects instead of wa=
sting them as everybody else is.&nbsp; You want piss away that <BLOCKQUOTE T=
YPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN=
-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT=
: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=
>aspect that your all ready paying for,&nbsp; be my guest but we are not tha=
t ignorant THANK&nbsp; YOU&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>=
THAT IS no different from drinking a half of a bottle of say beer and pourin=
g the remainder down the drain.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px s=
olid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>IF I pop a=20=
beer open I'm drinking all of it. You do as you please.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</B=
LOCKQUOTE></B> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f=
fffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>=
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Just Maybe i=
f you investigated first before you came to a conclusion,&nbsp; you would no=
t make an ignorant of </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><B=
R>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>new possible situations call like that. But that would b=
e to easy wouldn't it.&nbsp;&nbsp; By doing that you made a complete total f=
ool out of yourself.&nbsp; REAL smart Fred&nbsp; Kreig Fred is a tad smarter=
 than you are but not by much <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
--part1_1e2.396b889.2b966719_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 13:07:06 2003
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Message-ID: <3E6514D9.6030502 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:04:25 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Subject: Re: Attitude? Please BIG SURGE THANK YOU SIR
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JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>> By doing that you made a complete total fool out of yourself.  
>

Hey, Sparber, butt out, 'fool' is *my* title.

There could be an opening for a 'crank' soon, however.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 13:23:24 2003
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:19:08 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling
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At 11:23 AM 3/3/3, William Beaty wrote:
>> In my opinion the principle problem at this time is lack of enforcement of
>> existing rules.
>
>Vortex-L very specifically HAS no anti-namecalling rule.


If that is true then rule #2 needs rewording.  Name calling, ad hominem,
etc. is not respectful.  Threatening spam attacks is not respectful either.

Occasional rule violation has always been fairly readily tolerated here.
However, if nearly every post is not only content free but full of bile it
has a negative effect on the quality of conversation.  There is always some
idiot that eventually responds to it, even me!



>This issue has
>come up over and over in the past, with the result that the regular users
>like it this way.  (If this has changed, I'd be happy to give vortex-L the
>same anti-namecalling rule I used for all the other forums.)
>
>Rule #2 is there to keep the so-called "skeptical" scoffers from filling
>this forum with ridicule and sneering.
>
>VORTEX-L:
>  2. NO SNEERING.   Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is
>  banned. "Pathological Skepticism" is banned (see the link.)  The tone
>  here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
>  Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some
>  tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in
>  disgust.  But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy" claims
>  rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board!
>  MORE: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt
>
>It is very specifically NOT directed at namecallers.  Instead it's there
>to establish what vortex-L is for.      Rule 2 vmore.txt points out that
>vortex-L is a "tilted playing field" biased towards Believers and against
>Skeptics.  Rule #2 mentions "ad hominem" only as part of the rules against
>"skeptic" invasion.  However, if we Believers want to insult each other,
>that's NOT a big violation of the community rules... but vortexB is there
>for semi-voluntary use as a flame-bucket.
>
>Rule #5 is to prevent thread leakage.  I don't see any.


Carey continually makes responses to his coversations in other groups (esp.
alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com) and to private conversations,
either imagined or real.   I suppose this is because few here will repspond
to him.  When I have responded to his spam list (tcrampto mcc.edu,
droach mcc.edu, ddoherty@kettering.edu, john.boerger@cbcf-net.com,
carlton.speck delphiauto.com, richard.brekus@bmwna.com, fuchs@ttc-usa.com,
hermance ttc-usa.com, pford@ford.com, aleshan@ford.com, jcaste22@ford.com,
etimes teleport.com, director@faraday.ru, geford@ucdavis.edu,
e.kramer earthlink.net, ted.loder@unh.edu, iri@erols.com,
editor infinite-energy.com, pberardelli@upi.com,
onlinenews newscientist.com, jim.lewis@mail.house.gov, gtassist@sciam.com,
TrusteeOne aol.com, Eardd@aol.com, davdart@texas.net,
adolf.schneider datacomm.ch, albertwiedemann@mchm.siemens.de,
patrickcadore sterlingpublications.com, energy.globe@esv.or.at,
eljarpo alphalink.com.au, fischer@ocr.miot.edu, pfain@ucsusa.org,
thoren70 hotmail.com, letters@time.com)  I have had responses indicating
that Carey has repeatedly emailed people that have asked him not to.


>
>Rule #6 isn't about alt-sci inventors trolling for investors.  It's there
>to stop spammers from joining vortex-L so they can send us email for porno
>online casinos, etc.


OK, but then I personally think this rule needs changing.   Repeated
trolling for investors is worse in that it never goes away.   I mistakenly
thought some "topics" were banished for this.  This is especially true if
the spammer will not divulge how his device works, and will not provide
permit measurement of testing of the device.  If the topic can not be
discussed and analysed scientifically, is purely the poster's financial
venture, then it should have no place on this list IMO.  The rules do state
that regular posters can OCCASIONALLY advertise.  This implies that
continual advertising is banned.



>
>
>I handle flagrant namecallers case by case, NOT because they violate some
>rule, but because their behavior is disgusting and vortex-L members all
>turn against them and want it stopped.  Shall we add an anti-asshole rule?
>Or better yet, a rule against newcomers who come in and flood the forum
>with messages about just one topic?


A flood of messages with significant scientific content would not be
unwelcome, at least to me.  A flood of content-free bile is not very
desirable, however.  The problem, I admit, is defining a rule that
distingusihes content appropriateness.  This is not a problem with Carey,
however, in that he readily admits he has no scientifc or math background,
can't discuss things on that basis, and is principly interested in
business, the business of selling his wares.  Interested?  Then just call
him at ....


>
>
>> Despite repeated requests to stop doing so, Jack Carey continues to violate
>> Rule #2 through disrespectful dialog (monolog?), name calling and other
>> forms of ad hominem attack,
>
>
>The problem as I see it:
>
>   - Mr Carey is a newcomer who is dominating the forum by posting large
>     numbers of messages, and they aren't part of various threads, instead
>     they are all centered on his own project.   (Same as Newman,
>     Whirlpower, lifting body conspiracy, and others which I banned in
>     the past.)
>
>   - Mr. Carey fills his messages with namecalling and insults.  He's
>     behaving as a classic "internet flamer."
>
>   - He ignores complaints from other users,


Perhaps this is the most distinguishing criteria for identifying highly
undesirable posting.  Repeated complaints from multiple subscribers, based
even loosly upon the rules, should get moderator attention.  Of course,
this has indeed happened!   If there are rule changes, perhaps a rule about
repeated complaints may be useful.



> meaning that he doesn't know
>     how to behave properly in an online community.  When many people in
>     your neighborhood complain about you, it means that they're trying to
>     tell you what type of behavior is approriate there.  Same with
>     online communities.   Those who ignore all complaints find themselves
>     forced out of the civilized part of town and have to go live in
>     USENET, the slums full of garbage where there are no community
>     standards.
>
>   - Mr. Carey's project is a trade secret,  so he can't tell us all about
>     the details.   Yet the WHOLE POINT of vortex-L is to discuss just
>     these details.



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:48:55 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 04 Mar 2003 10:42:19 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

A quick hunt came across http://www.princeton.edu/~humcomp/sophlab/ther_58.htm which is a more formal statement of what I said recently in another post.
Note that the maximum efficiency that can be obtained from electrolysis is 
the inverse, i.e. delta H / delta G.
Combining electrolysis and fuel cells therefore results in a maximum theoretical efficiency of a quantity multiplied by it's inverse which is 1.
Also note, this pertains solely to thermodynamic efficiency, and takes no account of possible extra sources of energy e.g. possible Mills reactions during the electrolysis phase.

>jonfli wrote:
>
>>Jed,
>>
>>Although I didn't make myself clear, I think the article's reference to 
>>~50% efficiency was for the complete two stage conversion system. That is, 
>>electrical energy into the electrolysis conversion, then hydrogen/oxygen 
>>to the fuel cell with electrical energy out. This could place the 
>>electrolysis efficiency at  ~65% as you state, leaving the fuel cell 
>>at  ~77% which sounds reasonable.
>
>Ah, well, if that is what you mean, that number is unrealistically high. 
>According to the PG&E document and several other references, fuel cell 
>efficiency in 1990 was 40%, and it was expected to reach 50% in 2020. 
>However, I have read that a few fuel cells have already reached 
>approximately 60% under ideal conditions. I doubt they could be ~77%.
>
>This is still marvelous efficiency compared to most competing systems. 
>However, the most efficient transportation remains the pure electric 
>vehicle, either battery powered or wired, such as the electric car, subway, 
>electric locomotive (pantograph) or trolley car (trolley connection).
>
>I have a 1993 book published by NREL with very helpful tables and graphs 
>summarizing transportation and electric utility efficiency and conversion 
>methods. Most of the info is still current. It is not copyright, so if 
>there is demand for it; i.e., if several people would like to see it, I 
>could scan the 37 page appendices.
>
>- Jed
>

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <1e2.396b889.2b966719 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Attitude? Please BIG SURGE THANK YOU SIR 
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:47:56 -0600
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JCarey9622 aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Cc: eric voicenet.com ; vcrepair@juno.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 2:31 PM
  Subject: Re: Attitude? Please BIG SURGE THANK YOU SIR=20

  You want to field this one, Terry? Only a Fool can spell it out in a =
way that JC can understand.  :-)

  Frederick  (the Crank/eccentric)


  In a message dated 3/4/03 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:





      Yes Jack. You have a huge initial Surge on the single phase line =
that the ampmeter reading 9 amperes doesn't register and the 30 amp =
circuit breaker doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breaker trips), then  you have =
about 720 SURGES/second that the ampmeter doesn't register.  An ordinary =
scope looking at a 100 amp shunt will show these spikes of "over-unity =
power" that you are stealing from the power grid.  :-)

      Frederick  =20


        REPLY     SEE MORON  kreig   You have a Big Surge    SIR NOW for =
your statement of stealing power     =20

      You have a meter that the power Co. provides  CORRECT?  And once =
current passes thru that meter it belongs to you CORRECT? What you can =
accomplish with that current  is totally your business.  CORRECT?    IS =
that correct? =20


         YOU apparently have zero understanding of the now wasted =
aspects that are contained in the delivery=20

      process that you do not currently use that I know of.   WELL  FYI  =
someone  became sick and tired of paying for power they  could not =
benefit from.=20


        SO someone figured out how to utilize the wasted aspects instead =
of wasting them as everybody else is.  You want piss away that=20
      aspect that your all ready paying for,  be my guest but we are not =
that ignorant THANK  YOU  =20


       THAT IS no different from drinking a half of a bottle of say beer =
and pouring the remainder down the drain. =20

      IF I pop a beer open I'm drinking all of it. You do as you please. =
 =20


     Just Maybe if you investigated first before you came to a =
conclusion,  you would not make an ignorant of=20

    new possible situations call like that. But that would be to easy =
wouldn't it.   By doing that you made a complete total fool out of =
yourself.  REAL smart Fred  Kreig Fred is a tad smarter than you are but =
not by much=20






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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com"=20
  title=3DJCarey9622 aol.com>JCarey9622@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:eric voicenet.com"=20
  title=3Deric voicenet.com>eric@voicenet.com</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:vcrepair juno.com" =
title=3Dvcrepair juno.com>vcrepair@juno.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 04, 2003 =
2:31=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Attitude? Please =
BIG SURGE=20
  THANK YOU SIR </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">You want to field this one, Terry? =
Only a Fool=20
  can spell it out in a way that JC can understand.&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Frederick&nbsp; (the =
Crank/eccentric)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In a =
message dated=20
  3/4/03 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">fjsparber@earthlink.net</A>=20
  writes:<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE"><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>Yes Jack. You have a huge initial Surge on the =
single phase=20
      line that the ampmeter reading 9 amperes doesn't register and the =
30 amp=20
      circuit breaker doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breaker trips), =
then&nbsp; you=20
      have about 720 SURGES/second that the ampmeter doesn't =
register.&nbsp; An=20
      ordinary scope looking at a 100 amp shunt will show these spikes =
of=20
      "over-unity power" that you are stealing from the power =
grid.&nbsp;=20
      :-)<BR><BR>Frederick&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
      lang=3D0 size=3D2 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
    =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>=20
  REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEE MORON&nbsp; kreig&nbsp;&nbsp; You =
have a Big=20
  Surge&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SIR NOW for your statement of stealing=20
  power&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
  lang=3D0 size=3D2 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>You have a meter that the power Co. provides&nbsp;=20
      CORRECT?&nbsp; And once current passes thru that meter it belongs =
to you=20
      CORRECT? What you can accomplish with that current&nbsp; is =
totally your=20
      business.&nbsp; CORRECT?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IS that correct?&nbsp;=20
      </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>YOU =
apparently have=20
  zero understanding of the now wasted aspects that are contained in the =

  delivery </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>process that you do not currently use that I know=20
      of.&nbsp;&nbsp; WELL&nbsp; FYI&nbsp; someone&nbsp; became sick and =
tired=20
      of paying for power they&nbsp; could not benefit from. =
</FONT><FONT=20
      color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
      =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>SO someone =
figured out=20
  how to utilize the wasted aspects instead of wasting them as everybody =
else=20
  is.&nbsp; You want piss away that=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE=3D"CITE">aspect that your all ready paying for,&nbsp; be my =
guest but=20
      we are not that ignorant THANK&nbsp; YOU&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT=20
      color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
      =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>THAT IS no different =
from=20
  drinking a half of a bottle of say beer and pouring the remainder down =
the=20
  drain.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 =
size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>IF I pop a beer open I'm drinking all of it. You do =
as you=20
      please.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE></B></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
    face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20
  lang=3D0 size=3D2 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Just Maybe if you investigated =
first before=20
  you came to a conclusion,&nbsp; you would not make an ignorant of =
</FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>new possible situations call like that. But that =
would be to=20
    easy wouldn't it.&nbsp;&nbsp; By doing that you made a complete =
total fool=20
    out of yourself.&nbsp; REAL smart Fred&nbsp; Kreig Fred is a tad =
smarter=20
    than you are but not by much <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
    lang=3D0 size=3D3 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></B></FONT></FONT>=
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 14:08:32 2003
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:05:30 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
In-Reply-To: <cf7a6v0j5rirfob0ifd8fkr4tc7r9smn90 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030304102725.00a92f98 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030303152947.02f9f9d8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <013a01c2e1f1$f9f5d200$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20030304102725.00a92f98 pop.mindspring.com>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>A quick hunt came across 
>http://www.princeton.edu/~humcomp/sophlab/ther_58.htm which is a more 
>formal statement of what I said recently in another post. Note that the 
>maximum efficiency that can be obtained from electrolysis is the inverse, 
>i.e. delta H / delta G.
>Combining electrolysis and fuel cells therefore results in a maximum 
>theoretical efficiency . . .

It says "the efficiency of the Ideal Fuel Cell is . . . 83%." As far as I 
know, actual, real-world cells so far are at best ~60%.


>Also note, this pertains solely to thermodynamic efficiency, and takes no 
>account of possible extra sources of energy e.g. possible Mills reactions 
>during the electrolysis phase.

Naturally it takes no account of these reactions. This is a standard 
textbook equation for ideal chemical reactions based on conventional 
chemical theory. Whether Mills is right or wrong, he is not part of the 
conventional canon yet. In any case, in most electrochemical cells and fuel 
cells, Mills reactions are not observed -- and I presume they do not occur. 
I presume special circumstances are required. That is certainly the case 
with CF reactions. Adding a "CF factor" or a "Mills factor" to a standard 
electrochemistry equation would make calibration impossible. There would be 
no null! We cannot add such factors until the conditions that give rise to 
them are completely reproducible, and rigorously, quantitatively defined.

I doubt the CF effect has any connection with electrochemistry per se. It 
seems to occur about as readily with gas loading. So I doubt there will 
ever by a "CF factor" for standard electrochemistry, even if CF someday 
drives our machinery.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 14:57:27 2003
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:28:32 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: anti Spam ..... Reporting Spammers
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At 5:15 PM 3/3/3, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear Vo.,
>
>        Do any of you know any reasonably useful and straightforward
>associations, and-or other "anti-spam" entities one can report spammers
>to....?
>
>        The idea is to be proactive...instead of simply eliminating the
>local..... on your machine problem..... to report these incidents to some
>group that may wish to take further "counter-spam" action.
>
>                                                JH

The quickest way to report spam from reputable places like hotmail.com is
to FORWARD the email as-is to abuse hotmail.com.  If you do it fast enough
they will shut down the account before a lot more pepople get spammed.  You
have to know how to obtain the header information however (obtained in
Eudora by clicking the blah, blah, balh  button) and pasting it into the
forwarded email.

Some other spam reporting resources:

http://www.spamcop.net

http://spam.abuse.net

http://mail-abuse.org

http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/notifyfaq.html

To investigate to find the hidden source of spam:

Abuse whois resource:

http://www.fr1.cyberabuse.org/whois/?page=whois

http://www.abuse.net

http://www.abuse.net/lookup.phtml



ISP (Internet Service Provider) whois resource:

http://www.checkdomain.com

http://www.network-tools.com

http://www.samspade.org



Reporting spam resource:

http://www.spamcop.net

http://spam.abuse.net

http://mail-abuse.org

http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/notifyfaq.html

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 15:52:32 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:48:34 EST
Subject: Re: Attitude? Please BIG SURGE THANK YOU SIR 
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            FRED    You forced me to do that and you have no response period. 
  You may think you understand electricity but you do not.   Now let me hit 
you with this one at one time it fed back. Because the natural earth 
frequency's which are free and drawn into the process were being returned 
back

But the power CO> did not like that because they cooked transformers.  
Because the entire aspect of the current was being burned per see The power 
to cause that to happen had to come from somewhere.  You cannot turn a gal of 
gas into a Gal and of Half   or a cube of Gas into a cube and a half 

YOU cannot accomplish that will electricity either. BUT you can eliminate the 
power loss factor   That  total restrictive roadblock  OU  thinking is 
standing in you way. And throw the phase angle book away also.   And are you 
calling me to at least discuss it NO you know all there  is to know.  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; FRED&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You forc=
ed me to do that and you have no response period.&nbsp;&nbsp; You may think=20=
you understand electricity but you do not.&nbsp;&nbsp; Now let me hit you wi=
th this one at one time it fed back. Because the natural earth frequency's w=
hich are free and drawn into the process were being returned back<BR>
<BR>
But the power CO&gt; did not like that because they cooked transformers.&nbs=
p; Because the entire aspect of the current was being burned per see The pow=
er to cause that to happen had to come from somewhere.&nbsp; You cannot turn=
 a gal of gas into a Gal and of Half&nbsp;&nbsp; or a cube of Gas into a cub=
e and a half <BR>
<BR>
YOU cannot accomplish that will electricity either. BUT you can eliminate th=
e power loss factor&nbsp;&nbsp; That&nbsp; total restrictive roadblock&nbsp;=
 OU&nbsp; thinking is standing in you way. And throw the phase angle book aw=
ay also.&nbsp;&nbsp; And are you calling me to at least discuss it NO you kn=
ow all there&nbsp; is to know.&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 19:14:20 2003
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:13:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Attitude? Please BIG SURGE THANK YOU SIR
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At 2:47 PM 3/4/3, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> An ordinary scope looking at a 100 amp shunt will show these spikes of
>"over-unity power" that you are stealing from the power grid.  :-)
>
>      Frederick



Amen.  The power company will of course require filters to stop such theft
and noise, or otherwise terminate service for placing spikes on their
lines.  (They can similarly cancel service for exceptional LC phase
shifts.)  Neighbors will not like the effect of spikes on their radio and
TV, so it probably should not take the power companies very long to find
such culprits.

The crank.

P.S. I'd like to give up my title of lunatic and move up to crank if it is
still open, please!


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 00:00:47 EST
Subject:   THat sounds like Slander Horace ? 
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In a message dated 3/4/03 10:14:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> Amen.  The power company will of course require filters to stop such theft
> and noise, or otherwise terminate service for placing spikes on their
> lines.  (They can similarly cancel service for exceptional LC phase
> shifts.)  Neighbors will not like the effect of spikes on their radio and
> TV, so it probably should not take the power companies very long to find
> such culprits.
> 
> The crank.     REPLY     I just do not believe this THat  situation in NOT 
> happening .  MORON Horace   this is an EFF situation that you have not 
> investigated . You cannot filter out frequency's otherwise you would not 
> have power. YOUR problem is you do not use them. All you know is there 
> currently being wasted If you know anything about the operational side of 
> electricity. 


    As the power loss factor. If moron Horace  you eliminate the power loss 
you drastically increase the EFF< 
> AS with any electrical situation.   You cannot explain any of it  So now you 
> attempting a game. If were smart and appearently your not you  would 
> investigae   Your accusing us of stealing   WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK 
> YOU ARE ANYWAY   Is that slander?  THat is sueable isn't ??           
> 
> P.S. I'd like to give up my title of lunatic and move up to crank if it is
> still open, please!  How about MORON 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/4/03=
 10:14:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Amen.&nbsp; The power company w=
ill of course require filters to stop such theft<BR>
and noise, or otherwise terminate service for placing spikes on their<BR>
lines.&nbsp; (They can similarly cancel service for exceptional LC phase<BR>
shifts.)&nbsp; Neighbors will not like the effect of spikes on their radio a=
nd<BR>
TV, so it probably should not take the power companies very long to find<BR>
such culprits.<BR>
<BR>
The crank.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I just d=
o not believe this THat&nbsp; situation in NOT happening .&nbsp; MORON Horac=
e&nbsp;&nbsp; this is an EFF situation that you have not investigated . You=20=
cannot filter out frequency's otherwise you would not have power. YOUR probl=
em is you do not use them. All you know is there currently being wasted If y=
ou know anything about the operational side of electricity. </FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As the power loss factor. If moron Horace&nbsp; you el=
iminate the power loss you drastically increase the EFF&lt; </FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>AS with any electrical situation.&nbsp;&nbsp; You cannot=
 explain any of it&nbsp; So now you attempting a game. If were smart and app=
earently your not you&nbsp; would investigae&nbsp;&nbsp; Your accusing us of=
 stealing&nbsp;&nbsp; WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE ANYWAY&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Is that slander?&nbsp; THat is sueable isn't ??&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
P.S. I'd like to give up my title of lunatic and move up to crank if it is<B=
R>
still open, please!&nbsp; <B>How about MORON <BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  4 23:37:11 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 01:35:41 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Jack Carey's comeupance
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I just looked over Re: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling

Did any of you people notice the exchange that J C and I had yesterday?

Yesterday I met F for breakfast. I'd hoped that he would take me and 
the necessary equipment to Flint MI to test J C's machine. I told F 
about J C and how he calls us morons and that we are clueless, and E 
E don't know anything.

  I continued by saying that he claims to be a multimillionaire 
businessman, which made me wonder how a man with such awful manners, 
and poor communication skills could succeed in business. Then it 
occurred to me that he probably invested the money that Mrs. Carey 
earned in real estate. F buys and sells R E too, and he replied that 
he has met R E investors who behaved in a similar way.

F then inquired if J C has a patent. He continued, if he has no 
patent, then he hasn't got s__t, and I'm not interested. F continued 
by telling me that he has applied for a patent on a device that will 
do the same thing. So much for my trip to Flint.

I just read J C's reply. He attacked the patenting process, which I 
assume means that he doesn't have one. This goes to show you that a 
man can make money by investing in R E, and still have no clue about 
how the business world works. There are reasons why sophisticated 
intellectual property developers file for patents, they may not be 
the greatest things, but they do give you a leg to stand on, and they 
are the best game in town.

What would really tickle me is if F's patent covers the same 
technology that J C has. AFAIK, he who gets to the Patent Office 
first gets the patent.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 03:13:08 2003
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC  - Independence day?
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:41:46 -0000
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>From Wednesday's New York times

<<Top General Sees Plan to Shock Iraq Into Surrendering
By ERIC SCHMITT and ELISABETH BUMILLER
Military officials have said the plan calls for unleashing 3,000
precision-guided bombs and missiles in the first 48 hours of the campaign.>>

and

<<If asked to go into conflict in Iraq, what you'd like to do is have it be
a short conflict. The best way to do that would be to have such a shock on
the system that the Iraqi regime would have to assume early on the end was
inevitable."
GEN. RICHARD B. MYERS, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.>>

Does this remind anyone else of the plot of the film "Independence Day"? At
the start of the movie the overwhelmingly superior military force unleashes
its weapons simultaneously destroying all the major cities of the world. Did
this make the humans give up? Or did the brave and plucky American heroes
Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum fight back, after a rather super piece of
rhetoric from the President ("on this our Independence day"), using pretty
low tech methods. Why should the generals expect the Iraqi's (who have no
substantial connection with Al Quaeda anyway - Iran is far more likely to),
not to do likewise?

Nick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 03:17:13 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 03:15:07 -0800 (PST)
From: George Wagner <poetdreamerscholar yahoo.com>
Subject: A Minor Quibble from a Long-Time Lurker
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--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

    "But if your mind is open and you wish to test
'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or
explaining them away, hop on board!"

    Mr. Beatty, will you please expound here on
precisely what you mean by "explaining....away"?

    If I come up with what I believe to be an over-
unity device, and someone with vastly greater
technical knowledge than I possess is able to 
"explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian
physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?

    

=====
Sincerely,

     George Wagner
     GWAGNEROLDTIMERADIO YAHOO.COM
     poetdreamerscholar yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 06:15:59 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 03:26:06 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: THat sounds like Slander Horace ?
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At 12:00 AM 3/5/3, JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

>>  REPLY     I just do not believe this THat  situation in NOT
>> happening .  MORON Horace   this is an EFF situation that you have not
>> investigated . You cannot filter out frequency's otherwise you would not
>> have power. YOUR problem is you do not use them. All you know is there
>> currently being wasted If you know anything about the operational side of
>> electricity.
>
>
>    As the power loss factor. If moron Horace  you eliminate the power loss
>you drastically increase the EFF<
>> AS with any electrical situation.   You cannot explain any of it  So now you
>> attempting a game. If were smart and appearently your not you  would
>> investigae   Your accusing us of stealing   WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK
>> YOU ARE ANYWAY   Is that slander?  THat is sueable isn't ??

Is what slander?

Actually it was Fred Sparber who said a scope will show the spikes of
"over-unity power" you are steeling from the power grid:

At 2:47 PM 3/4/3, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> An ordinary scope looking at a 100 amp shunt will show these spikes of
>"over-unity power" that you are stealing from the power grid.  :-)
>
>      Frederick


So, are you stealing such spikes?  If so, then a scope WILL show it.  I say
amen to that. And if you are, or if you are causing phase shifts to the
line power, then the power company likely will eventually and rightfully be
on your case, or on the case of anyone else who does so, like flies on
dung.

Speaking of slander, calling me a MORON is slander, unless of course it is
true.  It implies that I have a diminished capacity to perform intellectual
tasks, that I have a low I.Q, a mental age of 7 to 12 years.  Now, if this
is true, that I have a low I.Q., then that means I'll have to tear up my
Mensa card.  Oh dear!  Oh dear!  Oh, well, I haven't been able to afford
Mensa dues for a long time, so the card is invalid anyway.  I suppose you
COULD attempt to use the fact that I responded to one of your messages as
prema facia evidence that I am an idiot.  Oh dear! Oh dear!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 06:20:43 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: A Minor Quibble from a Long-Time Lurker
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George Wagner wrote:

>     If I come up with what I believe to be an over-
>unity device, and someone with vastly greater
>technical knowledge than I possess is able to
>"explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian
>physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?

Sure! As I see it, if you think the expert has made an honest evaluation, 
you should report the substance of the explanation, and say whether you 
agree, disagree, or you cannot understand it. This is like an informal 
version of a patent disclosure or IPO. For example, in a broad review of 
CF, you would note that many skeptics claim the heat is caused by 
recombination or unspecific systematic errors, and you should address these 
arguments. You cannot list every objection anyone ever dreamed up, only the 
useful ones. There is no point in reporting that some expert mouthed off or 
jumped to an absurd conclusion.

The fact that an expert thinks he can explain something is, in itself, 
noteworthy, but an expert can always be wrong. His or her evaluation has to 
be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as any other point of view.

- Jed


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:19:47 EST
Subject: Re: A Minor Quibble from a Long-Time Lurker
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In a message dated 3/5/03 6:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
poetdreamerscholar yahoo.com writes:


> William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> 
>     "But if your mind is open and you wish to test
> 'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or
> explaining them away, hop on board!"
> 
>     Mr. Beatty, will you please expound here on
> precisely what you mean by "explaining....away"?
> 
>     If I come up with what I believe to be an over-
> unity device, and someone with vastly greater
> technical knowledge than I possess is able to 
> "explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian
> physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?
> 
>         REPLY  How about new different claims why does the word crazy have 
> to be used? Open minds are not the norm and is why we do not attempt to 
> evolve but they are the key to evolving. Science is very protective of 
> there theories. Because there all they have without them they have nothing 
> and they lose there creditability if they disappear. But for them to 
> disappear news ones has to replace them. 

   Which offers a chance to possibly evolve? But they are not interested in 
that because that may make sense.  Science > has a great to lose deal but the 
> other side of the coin is they have a great deal to gain. O U is totally 
> looked at in the wrong way. Because power has to come from somewhere 

    CASE IN POINT We know there is something called power loss when 
electricity is being used in operational situations. > If that loss factor  
> can be used instead of lost then you create a more EFF situation. The earth 
> yields power that can be measured but basically none considered that power  
> as a source. 

    But if that souce can be figured out how to be used then that power 
source becomes a viable situation. To them the > only the only way that can be 
> possible is if they accomplish the feat. Otherwise that feat cannot be 
> accomplished by anyone other than them in there closed and narrow minds. 

    WE know from history that evolutionary inventions were not produced by 
main stream science. They were produced by > people totally outside of main 
> stream. Because main stream has always been theory based so how could they 
> produce inventions that feat on their part is not possible.  

   Science acts like they always have and that is every thing that is now 
invented is all there is and will be. So they make > no attempts to any extent 
> to  to create anything new. And belittle any one that does. who is not one 
> of them.  Because if someone that is not one of them creates something they 
> cannot explain they will have their creditability adversely effected 

    Witch is where they make there glaring mistake Because they spend more 
time attempting to defend their believes > than they do investigating the 
> possible new creations.  By doing so THey create what is called a Giant 
> Catch 22 for themselves . Also main stream has little problem this time . 
> THEY cannot compete with the level of knowledge they are being confronted 
> with is this case.

   You have all ready saw what happened to the Chief Scientist of a Major 
Corp. who is a MIT Ph.D He stated in his own words he did not > understand. 
> Who among is on that level????? So to speak David has all ready taken down 
> Golith and sees no one here in this group as any challenge what so ever.

   If so David has earned the right to be a major league player and your 
still in the sand lots in comparison. So your task > is to challenge David  
> But Beware of what he has all ready accomplished. Understand before you 
> attempt to he has Tesla and Einstein level Fire power in reserve and will 
> use that dynamic if necessary NOT one of the mouth running know it all piss 
> ants have shown any  guts in regard to challengeing me that I can see. They 
> hide behind their computers as they probably hid behind the mothers 
> dresses. I have given science a chance to evollve they decided to miss the 
> opportunity              
> 
> =====
> Sincerely,
> 
>      George Wagner
>      


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 6:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, poetdreamerscholar yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">William Beaty &lt;billb eskimo.=
com&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "But if your mind is open and you wish to test<BR>
'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or<BR>
explaining them away, hop on board!"<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mr. Beatty, will you please expound here on<BR>
precisely what you mean by "explaining....away"?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If I come up with what I believe to be an over-<BR>
unity device, and someone with vastly greater<BR>
technical knowledge than I possess is able to <BR>
"explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian<BR>
physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; How about new diff=
erent claims why does the word crazy have to be used? Open minds are not the=
 norm and is why we do not attempt to evolve but they are the key to evolvin=
g. Science is very protective of there theories. Because there all they have=
 without them they have nothing and they lose there creditability if they di=
sappear. But for them to disappear news ones has to replace them. </FONT><FO=
NT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Which offers a=20=
chance to possibly evolve? But they are not interested in that because that=20=
may make sense.&nbsp; Science <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=20=
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">h=
as a great to lose deal but the other side of the coin is they have a great=20=
deal to gain. O U is totally looked at in the wrong way. Because power has t=
o come from somewhere </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOC=
KQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CASE IN P=
OINT We know there is something called power loss when electricity is being=20=
used in operational situations. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT=
: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=
>If that loss factor&nbsp; can be used instead of lost then you create a mor=
e EFF situation. The earth yields power that can be measured but basically n=
one considered that power&nbsp; as a source. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=
 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But if th=
at souce can be figured out how to be used then that power source becomes a=20=
viable situation. To them the <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=20=
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">o=
nly the only way that can be possible is if they accomplish the feat. Otherw=
ise that feat cannot be accomplished by anyone other than them in there clos=
ed and narrow minds. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCK=
QUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE know f=
rom history that evolutionary inventions were not produced by main stream sc=
ience. They were produced by <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #=
0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">pe=
ople totally outside of main stream. Because main stream has always been the=
ory based so how could they produce inventions that feat on their part is no=
t possible.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUO=
TE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Science acts li=
ke they always have and that is every thing that is now invented is all ther=
e is and will be. So they make <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">=
no attempts to any extent to&nbsp; to create anything new. And belittle any=20=
one that does. who is not one of them.&nbsp; Because if someone that is not=20=
one of them creates something they cannot explain they will have their credi=
tability adversely effected </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Witch is=20=
where they make there glaring mistake Because they spend more time attemptin=
g to defend their believes <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #00=
00ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">than=
 they do investigating the possible new creations.&nbsp; By doing so THey cr=
eate what is called a Giant Catch 22 for themselves . Also main stream has l=
ittle problem this time . THEY cannot compete with the level of knowledge th=
ey are being confronted with is this case.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; You have all re=
ady saw what happened to the Chief Scientist of a Major Corp. who is a MIT P=
h.D He stated in his own words he did not <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"B=
ORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-=
LEFT: 5px">understand. Who among is on that level????? So to speak David has=
 all ready taken down Golith and sees no one here in this group as any chall=
enge what so ever.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUO=
TE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; If so David has=
 earned the right to be a major league player and your still in the sand lot=
s in comparison. So your task <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=20=
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">i=
s to challenge David&nbsp; But Beware of what he has all ready accomplished.=
 Understand before you attempt to he has Tesla and Einstein level Fire power=
 in reserve and will use that dynamic if necessary NOT one of the mouth runn=
ing know it all piss ants have shown any&nbsp; guts in regard to challengein=
g me that I can see. They hide behind their computers as they probably hid b=
ehind the mothers dresses. I have given science a chance to evollve they dec=
ided to miss the opportunity&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</B><BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; George Wagner<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <e4.35edf5aa.2b9772f3 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:34:11 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's comeupance
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/5/03 2:37:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> I just looked over Re: Moderator: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling
> 
> Did any of you people notice the exchange that J C and I had yesterday?
> 
> Yesterday I met F for breakfast. I'd hoped that he would take me and 
> the necessary equipment to Flint MI to test J C's machine. I told F 
> about J C and how he calls us morons and that we are clueless, and E 
> E don't know anything.
>     REPLY   TOM  did you read where the Chief Scientist of the Delphi/GM 
> said he did not understand  or can you read I'm sorry if he did not 
> understand what makes you think you are. Your not on that level  IF he did 
> not impress me your not going that I can see Because you have not up to 
> now. That I can see But I can see you think you know it all . All I have 
> seen is what i consider ignorant ideas  Evenhe 50 million Tech. Center 
> laughed at them when Eric Kreig brought them up  Even  INFINITE ENERGY  did 
> not say anything about some moronic water heater 
>   I continued by saying that he claims to be a multimillionaire 
> businessman, which made me wonder how a man with such awful manners, 
> and poor communication skills could succeed in business. 
     REPLY  You act with a arrogant  attitude. When I react to that attidued 
all of sudden your MR innocent and about something you have no knowledge of 
that I can see  I react and I'm  the bad guy . Where do you get off acting 
with the arrogant attitude in the first place  
  Then it > occurred to me that he probably invested the money that Mrs. Carey 
> 
> earned in real estate. F buys and sells R E too, and he replied that 
> he has met R E investors who behaved in a similar way.
>   REPLY   that was not the case But if she is better than me at it more 
> power to her. Tom Please your not sharp enough to play me that I can see. 
> F then inquired if J C has a patent. He continued, if he has no 
> patent, then he hasn't got s__t, and I'm not interested. F continued 
> by telling me that he has applied for a patent on a device that will 
> do the same thing. So much for my trip to Flint.
>   REPLY  THe patent lawyer said he would not patent it either DO YOU want 
> to call him  ????PLuS Tom is making judgments without viewing the CD disk  
> that he can obtain that is within a few miles of him. WHERE in the hell can 
> I get a crystall ball like yours Tom 

    Because I have to investigate before I can make calls like that. It would 
save me a great deal of time having 
> one like yours . Everybody it seems on Vortex has one . Your problem is you 
> do not understand the patent game but think you do . I admit I do not 
> understand the farm game as you do. Because I'm not an arrogant know all 
> like you are. If Your friend wants to possibly miss out without 
> investigating that is up to him. So tell us what he has at least because we 
> may be interested   
> I just read J C's reply. He attacked the patenting process, which I 
> assume means that he doesn't have one. 
  REPLY   Trademarks are far better tell your friend he needs to learn the 
ropes. And I did a fair job at explaining the patent game Tell your friend he 
needs to read the new laws and he will see it is not the best game in town 
  This goes to show you that a > 
> man can make money by investing in R E, and still have no clue about 
> how the business world works. There are reasons why sophisticated 
> intellectual property developers file for patents, they may not be 
> the greatest things, but they do give you a leg to stand on, and they 
> are the best game in town.
> REPLY    I have three brick and motor businesses I created from zero . On 
> the front cover of an elite cutting edge Russian Sci mag. my photo is on 
> I'm standing in front  of one them. www.faraday.ru  Mar/apr 2002 issue 
> lower left under an elite Russian scientist  


    Tom all you do is bore me to no end PLUS I cannot stand religious 
fanantics anyway because of what they 
> spout off They are more closed and narrow minded than In the box Eng. and 
> Phy.  Because they have a cause and they would like to be as they were 
> centuries ago . Witch was in total control . Because that is there GAME 
> Then they burned you at the stake if you did not agree with them CORRECT 
> TOM>  There way is the only way.  just like main stream science No one else 
> knows anything except them. Stay in MINN  and do not waste my time  
> What would really tickle me is if F's patent covers the same 
> technology that J C has. AFAIK, he who gets to the Patent Office 
> first gets the patent.
>       REPLY     that tinker toy  is not even going to be manuf. I told what 
> ours does but you have not told us what that does. 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 2:37:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I just looked over Re: Moderato=
r: Mr. Carey, rules, namecalling<BR>
<BR>
Did any of you people notice the exchange that J C and I had yesterday?<BR>
<BR>
Yesterday I met F for breakfast. I'd hoped that he would take me and <BR>
the necessary equipment to Flint MI to test J C's machine. I told F <BR>
about J C and how he calls us morons and that we are clueless, and E <BR>
E don't know anything.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; TOM&nbsp; did you read where the Chi=
ef Scientist of the Delphi/GM said he did not understand&nbsp; or can you re=
ad I'm sorry if he did not understand what makes you think you are. Your not=
 on that level&nbsp; IF he did not impress me your not going that I can see=20=
Because you have not up to now. That I can see But I can see you think you k=
now it all . All I have seen is what i consider ignorant ideas&nbsp; Evenhe=20=
50 million Tech. Center laughed at them when Eric Kreig brought them up&nbsp=
; Even&nbsp; INFINITE ENERGY&nbsp; did not say anything about some moronic w=
ater heater </B><BR>
&nbsp; I continued by saying that he claims to be a multimillionaire <BR>
businessman, which made me wonder how a man with such awful manners, <BR>
and poor communication skills could succeed in business. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; You act with a arrogant&nbsp; attitu=
de. When I react to that attidued all of sudden your MR innocent and about s=
omething you have no knowledge of that I can see&nbsp; I react and I'm&nbsp;=
 the bad guy . Where do you get off acting with the arrogant attitude in the=
 first place&nbsp; </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; Then it <BLOCKQUOTE T=
YPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN=
-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">occurred to me that he probably invested the=
 money that Mrs. Carey <BR>
earned in real estate. F buys and sells R E too, and he replied that <BR>
he has met R E investors who behaved in a similar way.<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; that was not the case But if she is better than=20=
me at it more power to her. Tom Please your not sharp enough to play me that=
 I can see. </B><BR>
F then inquired if J C has a patent. He continued, if he has no <BR>
patent, then he hasn't got s__t, and I'm not interested. F continued <BR>
by telling me that he has applied for a patent on a device that will <BR>
do the same thing. So much for my trip to Flint.<BR>
<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; THe patent lawyer said he would not patent it either D=
O YOU want to call him&nbsp; ????PLuS Tom is making judgments without viewin=
g the CD disk&nbsp; that he can obtain that is within a few miles of him. WH=
ERE in the hell can I get a crystall ball like yours Tom </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Becaus=
e I have to investigate before I can make calls like that. It would save me=20=
a great deal of time having </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>one like yours . Everybody it seems on Vortex has one .=20=
Your problem is you do not understand the patent game but think you do . I a=
dmit I do not understand the farm game as you do. Because I'm not an arrogan=
t know all like you are. If Your friend wants to possibly miss out without i=
nvestigating that is up to him. So tell us what he has at least because we m=
ay be interested&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
I just read J C's reply. He attacked the patenting process, which I <BR>
assume means that he doesn't have one. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Trademarks are far better tell your friend he ne=
eds to learn the ropes. And I did a fair job at explaining the patent game T=
ell your friend he needs to read the new laws and he will see it is not the=20=
best game in town </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; This goes to show you=
 that a <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MAR=
GIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
man can make money by investing in R E, and still have no clue about <BR>
how the business world works. There are reasons why sophisticated <BR>
intellectual property developers file for patents, they may not be <BR>
the greatest things, but they do give you a leg to stand on, and they <BR>
are the best game in town.<BR>
<B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have three brick and motor businesses I created=
 from zero . On the front cover of an elite cutting edge Russian Sci mag. my=
 photo is on I'm standing in front&nbsp; of one them. www.faraday.ru&nbsp; M=
ar/apr 2002 issue lower left under an elite Russian scientist&nbsp; </FONT><=
FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tom all you do is bore me to no end PLUS I cannot stan=
d religious fanantics anyway because of what they </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>spout off They are more closed and narrow minded than In=
 the box Eng. and Phy.&nbsp; Because they have a cause and they would like t=
o be as they were centuries ago . Witch was in total control . Because that=20=
is there GAME Then they burned you at the stake if you did not agree with th=
em CORRECT TOM&gt;&nbsp; There way is the only way.&nbsp; just like main str=
eam science No one else knows anything except them. Stay in MINN&nbsp; and d=
o not waste my time&nbsp; </B><BR>
What would really tickle me is if F's patent covers the same <BR>
technology that J C has. AFAIK, he who gets to the Patent Office <BR>
first gets the patent.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that tinker=20=
toy&nbsp; is not even going to be manuf. I told what ours does but you have=20=
not told us what that does. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <78.39e99492.2b977755 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:52:53 EST
Subject: Re: THat sounds like Slander Horace ?
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In a message dated 3/5/03 9:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> So, are you stealing such spikes?  If so, then a scope WILL show it.  I say
> amen to that. And if you are, or if you are causing phase shifts to the
> line power, then the power company likely will eventually and rightfully be
> on your case, or on the case of anyone else who does so, like flies on
> dung.
>   REPLY    whatever comes past my meter i own   PERIOD  What i can 
> accomplish with it is my business  and in Calif. I can sell back ANSWER 
> THAT ONE HORACE  Your acting like a moron   because your making judgments 
> without investigating ALL i see is the word  IF IF IF 
> Speaking of slander, calling me a MORON is slander, unless of course it is
> true.  It implies that I have a diminished capacity to perform intellectual
> tasks, that I have a low I.Q, a mental age of 7 to 12 years.  Now, if this
> is true, that I have a low I.Q., then that means I'll have to tear up my
> Mensa card.  Oh dear!  Oh dear!  Oh, well, I haven't been able to afford
> Mensa dues for a long time, so the card is invalid anyway.  I suppose you
> COULD attempt to use the fact that I responded to one of your messages as
> prema facia evidence that I am an idiot.  Oh dear! Oh dear!
> 
> Regards,
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 9:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">So, are you stealing such spike=
s?&nbsp; If so, then a scope WILL show it.&nbsp; I say<BR>
amen to that. And if you are, or if you are causing phase shifts to the<BR>
line power, then the power company likely will eventually and rightfully be<=
BR>
on your case, or on the case of anyone else who does so, like flies on<BR>
dung.<BR>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; whatever comes past my meter i own&nbsp;&n=
bsp; PERIOD&nbsp; What i can accomplish with it is my business&nbsp; and in=20=
Calif. I can sell back ANSWER THAT ONE HORACE&nbsp; Your acting like a moron=
&nbsp;&nbsp; because your making judgments without investigating ALL i see i=
s the word&nbsp; IF IF IF </B><BR>
Speaking of slander, calling me a MORON is slander, unless of course it is<B=
R>
true.&nbsp; It implies that I have a diminished capacity to perform intellec=
tual<BR>
tasks, that I have a low I.Q, a mental age of 7 to 12 years.&nbsp; Now, if t=
his<BR>
is true, that I have a low I.Q., then that means I'll have to tear up my<BR>
Mensa card.&nbsp; Oh dear!&nbsp; Oh dear!&nbsp; Oh, well, I haven't been abl=
e to afford<BR>
Mensa dues for a long time, so the card is invalid anyway.&nbsp; I suppose y=
ou<BR>
COULD attempt to use the fact that I responded to one of your messages as<BR=
>
prema facia evidence that I am an idiot.&nbsp; Oh dear! Oh dear!<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 09:22:29 2003
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 09:46:29 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC  - Independence day?
In-Reply-To: <007a01c2e307$c7a8cd40$088f209a ggrf30j>
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Nick Palmer wrote:

>Does this remind anyone else of the plot of the film "Independence Day"? 
>At the start of the movie the overwhelmingly superior military force 
>unleashes its weapons simultaneously destroying all the major cities of 
>the world. Did this make the humans give up? Or did the brave and plucky 
>American heroes Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum fight back . . .

This was a Hollywood movie, so they fought back. In real life, if a hostile 
alien force capable of interstellar travel decided to invade earth and 
exterminate mankind, the "war" would last five minutes and every single 
person would be killed. It would be like the "battle" last year between me 
and a colony of bees that lived in the wall of my house. I like bees, so I 
left them alone until one broke through the sheet rock on the inside. Then 
I sprayed them and killed the poor things. The outcome was assured from the 
start, and I was never in the least danger.

A 20-year difference in human military technology gives an army an 
overwhelming advantage. In 1889 the U.S. Navy destroyed a Spanish fleet in 
the Philippines without fewer than 10 casualties. In the last stage of 
Battle of Britain, Italy sent a squadron of WWI-style biplanes to England. 
Spitfires and Hurricanes shot them out of the sky with no danger to the 
British pilots. It was like a training exercise.

Fortunately, I doubt that intelligent creatures capable of interstellar 
navigation would want to kill us, any more than I want to kill the bees 
living in the woods around my house. What would be the point? They could 
live anywhere they like, terraforming any planet to be like their home -- 
which would surely be far different from Earth.

In my opinion, the only realistic portrayal of an alien invasion in science 
fiction is Clarke's masterpiece "Childhood's End." (And by the way, Clarke 
and I share a low opinion of "Independence Day.")

This discussion does not apply to the upcoming war in Iraq. I doubt there 
is a 20-year gap between the U.S. and Iraq. If it becomes a war between 
conventional military forces and terrorists (or patriots, depending on your 
point of view), it will be "asymmetrical." The U.S. will use bomber 
airplanes and missiles, and the other side will U.S. civilian airplanes and 
suitcase bombs. There is no technology gap; both types of weapons are 
potent, and both are up-to-date in their own way. Previous asymmetrical 
wars are not comforting. They included, for example, the U.S. Revolutionary 
War, the second Japanese war in China (1932 - 1945), the French war in 
Algeria, and the French and U.S. campaigns in Vietnam.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 09:23:43 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:21:00 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: THat sounds like Slander Horace ?
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At 10:52 AM 3/5/3, JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 3/5/03 9:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>hheffner mtaonline.net writes:
>
>
>> So, are you stealing such spikes?  If so, then a scope WILL show it.  I say
>> amen to that. And if you are, or if you are causing phase shifts to the
>> line power, then the power company likely will eventually and rightfully be
>> on your case, or on the case of anyone else who does so, like flies on
>> dung.
>>   REPLY    whatever comes past my meter i own   PERIOD
[snip]


First, the effect you have on the electric company's distribution system
and other customers is the electric company's business.  If you cause
significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be
forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.  There are rigorous
specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect
broadcast reception as well.

Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you own.
If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extract
unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter", then
you may find yourself facing fraud charges.  If such a practice were
prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or
legislation to deal with it.  The decision as to whether your action falls
within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to
prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.  I suggest you call the DA's
office.

Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with any
business sense at all will require certification of the device by
Underwriters Labs.  Good luck getting certification from UL on any device
that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the utility
power.  Good luck getting business liability insurance without UL
certification!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:58:56 EST
Subject: Infinite Energy's verification and contradiction  
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In a message dated 3/5/03 9:20:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

            Because they were attempting to cover up the inability's  of 
understanding 
> . There is no point in reporting that some expert mouthed off or 
> jumped to an absurd conclusion.
> 
> The fact that an expert thinks he can explain something is, in itself, 
> noteworthy, but an expert can always be wrong. His or her evaluation has to 
> 
> be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as any other point of view.
> 
> - Jed
>    JED   Out here you will be shot or burned at the stake so to speak for 
> questioning them. Because I attempted to present evolutionary new possible 
> positive solutions. To our power demand problems on this planet .  THat 
> have  profound dramatic effects by drastic ruduicg usage of the dominate 
> power factor on this planet which is A/C current. 

    That as far as I kow science cannot explain and all I met with was 
negative closed narrow minded accusing. > No investigating snide know it all 
> arrogant derogatory character  remarks 98% of the time. Do not expect them 
> to actually make an effort to call and discuss the possible new situations. 
> Because that would make to much common sense.  We cannot have that 
> happening because they may not understand and then they would be made fools 
> of for swallowing hook line and sinker what the Edu. system fed them. .     
> 

> When I dressed them down for their combative judgmental response actions 
> they went crying to the moderator accusing me being abusive.  A major 
> alternative Mag. has tested all ready that your associated with as an 
> associate editor. Plus built an obsolete version of and tested it but 
> cannot explain. AND  cannot deny it functions as advertised and verified in 
> a description but then were foolish enough to not realize what they did.

  AND contradicted themselves because they could not understand and were 
attempting to cover up that fact, because  > they cannot explain.  Colleges 
> have saw it and they are clueless also. On top of that is it so minor to us 
> we are not going to manuf. it. 

  That tells any half wit  we must have some very advanced situations and how 
jaded we are if we are not 
> going. to manuf. Because we are not a member of the arrogant know it all in 
> the box counter productive Giant Ego driven main stream science comm. We 
> are Kooks,Con Men, goof Balls, metal defectives, uneducated, otherwise we 
> do not meet their standards. THEY do not meet our standards  is actually  
> the situation. WE need them for ZERO on top of that.      
> 
> Here it is from KEN from Infinite """""""""'
> 
> 
> What I can say clearly for Wayne's sake is that despite just a visual
> inspection of the garage wiring which was not totally verified, he did
> demonstrate the converter running a 1 HP drill press in idle, a supposed 5
> HP air compressor running at 160 psig, and a 3 phase 2kW arc welder in
> actual use on his welding table; the fluorescent lights in the garage did
> not even flicker, and actually seemed to pulsate brighter at a half cycle
> per second rate.     
_________________________-
  Reply  this is the world that the Phase converter technology creates which 
is all together different that yours  And your math will not explain at all. 
To be correct The Drill Press requires a 2 1/2 and the Air. Com. was powered 
by a 3 HP but requires a 5 HP. In your world.

  What he is saying is not possible in your world  According to your math 
from a 110 V feed. With only a total 9 AMP draw that was all that was 
necessary to accomplish what he described.     Ken also contradicted himself 
by saying his meter reads were inconclusive.

Naturally they would be because they did not conform to what normal readings 
would be. HELLO. Plus he did not realize what he was saying in his 
description it appears but I caught it because of my understanding of the 
totally new process that is occurring. 

Ken Again ""     He then disconnected the converter and ran just a 1kW,
> 110VAC single phase arc welder and the fluorescent lights almost went out  
> when Wayne struck an arc.  

REPLY  this is how your known electrical world functions       CASE CLOSED 
CLAIMS VERIFIED  I'm sorry if you 
> cannot explain the new process. You may want to study some Tesla. after you 
> throw away your electrical theory books.  Next Skeptic Please  




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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 9:20:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; Becaus=
e they were attempting to cover up the inability's&nbsp; of understanding </=
B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">. There is no point in reportin=
g that some expert mouthed off or <BR>
jumped to an absurd conclusion.<BR>
<BR>
The fact that an expert thinks he can explain something is, in itself, <BR>
noteworthy, but an expert can always be wrong. His or her evaluation has to=20=
<BR>
be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as any other point of view.<BR>
<BR>
- Jed<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>JED&nbsp;&nbsp; Out here you will be shot or burned at the s=
take so to speak for questioning them. Because I attempted to present evolut=
ionary new possible positive solutions. To our power demand problems on this=
 planet .&nbsp; THat have&nbsp; profound dramatic effects by drastic ruduicg=
 usage of the dominate power factor on this planet which is A/C current. </F=
ONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FA=
MILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>That a=
s far as I kow science cannot explain and all I met with was negative closed=
 narrow minded accusing. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000=
ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">No inv=
estigating snide know it all arrogant derogatory character&nbsp; remarks 98%=
 of the time. Do not expect them to actually make an effort to call and disc=
uss the possible new situations. Because that would make to much common sens=
e.&nbsp; We cannot have that happening because they may not understand and t=
hen they would be made fools of for swallowing hook line and sinker what the=
 Edu. system fed them. .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">When I dressed them down for their combative judgmental res=
ponse actions they went crying to the moderator accusing me being abusive.&n=
bsp; A major alternative Mag. has tested all ready that your associated with=
 as an associate editor. Plus built an obsolete version of and tested it but=
 cannot explain. AND&nbsp; cannot deny it functions as advertised and verifi=
ed in a description but then were foolish enough to not realize what they di=
d.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; AND contradicted them=
selves because they could not understand and were attempting to cover up tha=
t fact, because&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff=20=
2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">they cann=
ot explain.&nbsp; Colleges have saw it and they are clueless also. On top of=
 that is it so minor to us we are not going to manuf. it. </FONT><FONT  COLO=
R=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; <B>That tells any hal=
f wit&nbsp; we must have some very advanced situations and how jaded we are=20=
if we are not </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ff=
ffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>going. to manuf. Because we are not a member of the arro=
gant know it all in the box counter productive Giant Ego driven main stream=20=
science comm. We are Kooks,Con Men, goof Balls, metal defectives, uneducated=
, otherwise we do not meet their standards. THEY do not meet our standards&n=
bsp; is actually&nbsp; the situation. WE need them for ZERO on top of that.&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Here it is from KEN from Infinite """""""""'<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What I can say clearly for Wayn=
e's sake is that despite just a visual<BR>
inspection of the garage wiring which was not totally verified, he did<BR>
demonstrate the converter running a 1 HP drill press in idle, a supposed 5<B=
R>
HP air compressor running at 160 psig, and a 3 phase 2kW arc welder in<BR>
actual use on his welding table; the fluorescent lights in the garage did<BR=
>
not even flicker, and actually seemed to pulsate brighter at a half cycle<BR=
>
per second rate.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
_________________________-<BR>
&nbsp; Reply&nbsp; this is the world that the Phase converter technology cre=
ates which is all together different that yours&nbsp; And your math will not=
 explain at all. To be correct The Drill Press requires a 2 1/2 and the Air.=
 Com. was powered by a 3 HP but requires a 5 HP. In your world.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; What he is saying is not possible in your world&nbsp; According to yo=
ur math from a 110 V feed. With only a total 9 AMP draw that was all that wa=
s necessary to accomplish what he described.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken als=
o contradicted himself by saying his meter reads were inconclusive.<BR>
<BR>
Naturally they would be because they did not conform to what normal readings=
 would be. HELLO. Plus he did not realize what he was saying in his descript=
ion it appears but I caught it because of my understanding of the totally ne=
w process that is occurring. <BR>
<BR>
Ken Again ""&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He then disconnected the converter and=20=
ran just a 1kW,<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">110VAC single phase arc welder=20=
and the fluorescent lights almost went out&nbsp; when Wayne struck an arc.&n=
bsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
REPLY&nbsp; this is how your known electrical world functions&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CASE CLOSED CLAIMS VERIFIED&nbsp; I'm sorry if you <BR=
>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">cannot explain the new process.=
 You may want to study some Tesla. after you throw away your electrical theo=
ry books.&nbsp; Next Skeptic Please&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1da.46c0c5e.2b9794e0_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 10:42:38 2003
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From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <1da.46c0c5e.2b9794e0 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Infinite Energy's verification and contradiction  
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:25:16 -0600
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Jack,

I have just one simple question for you or your tech regarding the phase
converter technology Wayne developed and that is, what is the input power
factor of the unit while in operation?

Also, is the data from Infinite Energy's tests available so we can have a
look for ourselves?

Jon

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 11:41:00 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle! And The Geomagnetic Dynamo
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More likely than Neutrino, Gravity or ZPF tapping?

http://www.geology.iupui.edu/research/teachinglab/tutorial/magnet/magnet.htm

Faraday and Lenz's Laws.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html#c2

Large capacitors, high inductance motors, resonance and the earth's magnetic field,
equals o.u. energy?

Out of my reach.   :-)

Regards,

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 12:07:20 2003
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 15:03:33 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Recent LENR-CANR uploads
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Here are some important early papers from Stanford University. Throw these 
at "skeptics" who claim CF was never replicated, along with stuff from SRI:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchreiberMrecentmeas.pdf
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HugginsRAmaterialsa.pdf


Other recent additions:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEwhycoldfus.pdf
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEtheeffecto.pdf
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMelectrochec.pdf

Here are two papers about the unusual radioactive elements produced in a 
Pons-Fleischmann cell by K. Wolf at Texas A & M:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEalchemynig.pdf
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/PassellTOradiationd.pdf


People who have not read Claytor et al. should stop whatever you are doing 
and read:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ClaytorTNtritiumpro.pdf
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ClaytorTNtritiumprob.pdf

Perhaps I should create a file listing all uploads in file creation order.

As of March 5, 2003, 39,101 papers have been downloaded from LENR-CANR 
(starting October 7, 2002).

- Jed


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In a message dated 3/5/03 12:23:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> First, the effect you have on the electric company's distribution system
> and other customers is the electric company's business. 
   REPLY   Yes if we are      BUT we have no effect  unless we are feeding 
back and that is a positive effect. WE are only using what is provided in a 
more EFF manor as an end result operational situation  That you do not appear 
to have clue one how to grasp and are running your mouth  about something you 
apparently have zero knowledge about 
    If you cause> 
> significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be
> forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.  There are rigorous
> specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect
> broadcast reception as well.
> 
> Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you own.
> If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extract
> unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter", then
> you may find yourself facing fraud charges.  
     REPLY   IF IDIOT  THEY  provide power to me that comes past my meter and 
it contains aspects they cannot meter that is not my PROBLEM IT IS THEIR 
problem SO i suggest they do not delivery them to me. IT is not against the 
law MORON to figure out a more EFF. way to use the delivered power. ARE you 
hitting a Crack pipe or something. If it is jerk off I have a group of 
Billionaires that we are in the process of dealing with that will get that 
law changed  

 Regardless of that  Stop and think for once. Or am I asking to much from 
you. ?? Because you did not stop and think before you wrote this moronic mail 
 BOTTOM LINE     Do you think the pubic is going to say we cannot buy them 
because they use aspects of electricity. That we are all ready paying for but 
we are supposed to waste them.  Because the power CO says so and they are 
GOD,  So we have to follow there directions.   

 HELLO  FYI This is the real world if the public can reduce their bills 75% 
WHAT DO YOU THINK their response is going to BE ??? Wake the hell up. You 
appearently cannot grasp any aspects of the over all equation this situations 
creates.      

MORON IF YOU do not want to not use that aspect all ready contained in the 
delivery process of A/C current and waste it I care less be my guest. But I'm 
not that ignorant Thank You  YOU problem is your supposed to understand the 
Tech. dynamics of the operational situations I'm speaking of.  But you do not 
it appears and your copping an attitude because of that inability of yours.  
You thought you knew all there was to know about physics  because your EDu. 
said you did and now you may SQUAT   
If such a practice were> 
> prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or
> legislation to deal with it.  The decision as to whether your action falls
> within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to
> prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.  I suggest you call the DA's
> office.
> 
> Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with any
> business sense at all will require certification of the device by
> Underwriters Labs.  Good luck getting certification from UL on any device
> that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the utility
> power.  Good luck getting business liability insurance without UL
> certification!
>          REPLY     YOUR assuming  Smart people do not do that,  only total 
> FOOLS do. What if what your assuming is not the case at all?  Your not 
> addressing that at all are you ??????? FYI Info Clown You  would have been 
> told if you asked,  witch you did not.  YOUR types know it all and never 
> ask ALL you do is assume. And by doing so made yourself appear as a 
> complete fool 

  FYI   Phase  conversion uses all ready UL approved off the shelf hardware 
that has been  modified. But that 
> modification does not effect the present UL rating at all   That now enables 
> the operational aspects  to be far more  EFF.  The same way Tesla  
> accomplished the feat it appears. 

   AND by the way we also have situations that do not require any feed from 
the power company  HORACE  
> This is the major leagues your attempting to play in.  It appears Your a 
> piss ant arrogant sand lot player wanna be,  Plus your boring me to no end. 
> With your total no investigative one sided stone wall ignorance of new 
> different situations  WHY did you force me to respond in this manor in 
> front of your peers.  When all you had to do was act in an investigative 
> manor. ???
>  Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 12:23:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">First, the effect you have on t=
he electric company's distribution system<BR>
and other customers is the electric company's business. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes if we are&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; BUT we have no effect&nbsp; unless we are feeding back and that is a posit=
ive effect. WE are only using what is provided in a more EFF manor as an end=
 result operational situation&nbsp; That you do not appear to have clue one=20=
how to grasp and are running your mouth&nbsp; about something you apparently=
 have zero knowledge about </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you ca=
use<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-L=
EFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be<BR>
forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.&nbsp; There are rigorous<=
BR>
specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect<BR>
broadcast reception as well.<BR>
<BR>
Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you own.<BR>
If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extract<BR>
unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter", then<BR>
you may find yourself facing fraud charges.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; IF IDIOT&nbsp; THEY&nbsp; prov=
ide power to me that comes past my meter and it contains aspects they cannot=
 meter that is not my PROBLEM IT IS THEIR problem SO i suggest they do not d=
elivery them to me. IT is not against the law MORON to figure out a more EFF=
. way to use the delivered power. ARE you hitting a Crack pipe or something.=
 If it is jerk off I have a group of Billionaires that we are in the process=
 of dealing with that will get that law changed&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Regardless of that&nbsp; Stop and think for once. Or am I asking to much fr=
om you. ?? Because you did not stop and think before you wrote this moronic=20=
mail&nbsp; BOTTOM LINE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you think the pubic is goi=
ng to say we cannot buy them because they use aspects of electricity. That w=
e are all ready paying for but we are supposed to waste them.&nbsp; Because=20=
the power CO says so and they are GOD,&nbsp; So we have to follow there dire=
ctions.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 HELLO&nbsp; FYI This is the real world if the public can reduce their bills=
 75% WHAT DO YOU THINK their response is going to BE ??? Wake the hell up. Y=
ou appearently cannot grasp any aspects of the over all equation this situat=
ions creates.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
MORON IF YOU do not want to not use that aspect all ready contained in the d=
elivery process of A/C current and waste it I care less be my guest. But I'm=
 not that ignorant Thank You&nbsp; YOU problem is your supposed to understan=
d the Tech. dynamics of the operational situations I'm speaking of.&nbsp; Bu=
t you do not it appears and your copping an attitude because of that inabili=
ty of yours.&nbsp; You thought you knew all there was to know about physics&=
nbsp; because your EDu. said you did and now you may SQUAT&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><=
BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">If such a practice were<BLOC=
KQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px=
; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or<BR>
legislation to deal with it.&nbsp; The decision as to whether your action fa=
lls<BR>
within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to<BR>
prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.&nbsp; I suggest you call the DA's=
<BR>
office.<BR>
<BR>
Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with any<BR>
business sense at all will require certification of the device by<BR>
Underwriters Labs.&nbsp; Good luck getting certification from UL on any devi=
ce<BR>
that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the utility<=
BR>
power.&nbsp; Good luck getting business liability insurance without UL<BR>
certification!<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; YOUR assuming&nbsp; Smart people do not do that,&nbsp; only total FOOL=
S do. What if what your assuming is not the case at all?&nbsp; Your not addr=
essing that at all are you ??????? FYI Info Clown You&nbsp; would have been=20=
told if you asked,&nbsp; witch you did not.&nbsp; YOUR types know it all and=
 never ask ALL you do is assume. And by doing so made yourself appear as a c=
omplete fool </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff=
fff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></=
B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; <B>FYI&nbsp;&nbsp; Ph=
ase&nbsp; conversion uses all ready UL approved off the shelf hardware that=20=
has been&nbsp; modified. But that </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>modification does not effect the present UL rating at al=
l&nbsp;&nbsp; That now enables the operational aspects&nbsp; to be far more&=
nbsp; EFF.&nbsp; The same way Tesla&nbsp; accomplished the feat it appears.=20=
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> AND by the w=
ay we also have situations that do not require any feed from the power compa=
ny&nbsp; HORACE&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><B=
R>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>This is the major leagues your attempting to play in.&nb=
sp; It appears Your a piss ant arrogant sand lot player wanna be,&nbsp; Plus=
 your boring me to no end. With your total no investigative one sided stone=20=
wall ignorance of new different situations&nbsp; WHY did you force me to res=
pond in this manor in front of your peers.&nbsp; When all you had to do was=20=
act in an investigative manor. ???</B><BR>
 Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Horace Heffner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:21:00 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: THat sounds like Slander Horace ?
Resent-Message-ID: <"VMmgS1.0.qI7.r7ZP-" mx1>
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At 10:52 AM 3/5/3, JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 3/5/03 9:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>hheffner mtaonline.net writes:
>
>
>> So, are you stealing such spikes?  If so, then a scope WILL show it.  I say
>> amen to that. And if you are, or if you are causing phase shifts to the
>> line power, then the power company likely will eventually and rightfully be
>> on your case, or on the case of anyone else who does so, like flies on
>> dung.
>>   REPLY    whatever comes past my meter i own   PERIOD
[snip]


First, the effect you have on the electric company's distribution system
and other customers is the electric company's business.  If you cause
significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be
forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.  There are rigorous
specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect
broadcast reception as well.

Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you own.
If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extract
unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter", then
you may find yourself facing fraud charges.  If such a practice were
prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or
legislation to deal with it.  The decision as to whether your action falls
within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to
prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.  I suggest you call the DA's
office.

Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with any
business sense at all will require certification of the device by
Underwriters Labs.  Good luck getting certification from UL on any device
that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the utility
power.  Good luck getting business liability insurance without UL
certification!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



--part1_a5.36638115.2b97b287_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 12:18:35 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:33:45 -0500
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Hi Robin.

( for some reason my mails did not go through yesterday )

Thanks for the link.

You write:
>Note that the maximum efficiency that can be obtained from electrolysis is
>the inverse, i.e. delta H / delta G.

Yielding the perverse result I was referring to, 120% efficient.

If I run an electrolyser cell, storing the gas rather than
recombining it, will it then be the case that the cell will grow
cooler?

You should understand that at the time I was experimenting with
this, light water/nickle "fusion" reactions were being noted with
OU efficiencies in this region.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 14:04:43 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:00:30 EST
Subject: Re: Infinite Energy's verification and contradiction  
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In a message dated 3/5/03 1:58:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonfli cox.net 
writes:


> Jack,    ERIC do you have that infinite Energy File about the unit they 
> built? 
> 
> I have just one simple question for you or your tech regarding the phase
> converter technology Wayne developed and that is, what is the input power
> factor of the unit while in operation?
>     REPLY  Total draw with all situations described operation under load  9 
> AMPS  Unit by itself after starting 2.4 Amps  from 110V   THINK now you 
> have power loss With this new way you do not.  And the now power loss 
> factors are now conducting the majority of the performed work. 

  IT IS JUST THE opposite as it is now. But the Horace types  have resorted 
to accusing us of theft. Because they are clueless.  Because they have zero 
math to explain it without  that they are totally lost. They do not like that 
at all.   Because being able to explain with math is where their 
creditability comes from.    This is an end result use situation.  ALL the 
SCI. types try their little games BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it  THE 
converter loves dirty power.  

Including occasional Spikes but does not create them. THE power is normal 
until it is converted in a new manor  then it is used.  Phase converters do  
not like cold weather. You have pre heat them before you start them but like 
hot weather  There again just the opposite Because normal  3 phase situations 
like cold weather. You dealing with a complete different opposite theoretical 
understanding here. of A/C current. 

EFF varies  some if your only receiving say 89 Volts as opposed to 120 V  
FROM the grid  Discard your phase angle book also.   YOU will have to totally 
start over. With a clean sheet of paper. All  you get is the concept and a 
demo that is all you will ever see. Unless you can figure out the rest. NOBEL 
minds are clueless to So Good luck  IF YOUR high end world class basically 
self taught electrical type with NO formal training grasping the concept is 
easy. Because you have no restrictive roadblock boat anchor theories to get 
in your way then. 

       is the data from Infinite Energy's tests available so we can have a> 
> look for ourselves?   

    I sent them out but did not keep them I will  ask Eric Kreig if he has 
the file they sent    I just called the 50 million dollar Tech center here to 
get a copy from them but there closed because of the snow storm.    WE had 
given them copy's and then they scanned them and sent a file to me 

  You going to be farther ahead if you call me also so the conceptual aspects 
can be explained because you basically do not have a starting point by 
looking at the files without one. But that is up to you My no is 810 618 9234 
 They were getting 92% EFF > which in OU terms is about 700% This has to be 
> looked at in a different way   You cannot use any known theory.   

  Because none applies It is all new theory PERIOD  I'm surprised I.E. did 
not kill themeless with the cluster you > know what they put together because 
> your dealing with 3 phase power. It is very safe and Idiot proof as far as 
> the pre production  units.  But it is totally obsolete to us and is not 
> worth our time to manuf. It is Model T compared to space shuttle we will 
> Manuf. AS you can see I'm very jaded 
> 
> Jon
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 1:58:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonfli cox.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> ERIC=
 do you have that infinite Energy File about the unit they built? </B><BR>
<BR>
I have just one simple question for you or your tech regarding the phase<BR>
converter technology Wayne developed and that is, what is the input power<BR=
>
factor of the unit while in operation?<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Total draw with all situations described o=
peration under load&nbsp; 9 AMPS&nbsp; Unit by itself after starting 2.4 Amp=
s&nbsp; from 110V&nbsp;&nbsp; THINK now you have power loss With this new wa=
y you do not.&nbsp; And the now power loss factors are now conducting the ma=
jority of the performed work. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKG=
ROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0=
"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;<B> IT IS JUST THE opp=
osite as it is now. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLO=
R: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">But the=20=
Horace types&nbsp; have resorted to accusing us of theft. Because they are c=
lueless.&nbsp; Because they have zero math to explain it without&nbsp; that=20=
they are totally lost. They do not like that at all.&nbsp;&nbsp; Because bei=
ng able to explain with math is where their creditability comes from.&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; This is an end result use situation.&nbsp; ALL the SCI. types tr=
y their little games BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it&nbsp; THE converter=
 loves dirty power.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Including occasional Spikes but does not create them. THE power is normal un=
til it is converted in a new manor&nbsp; then it is used.&nbsp; Phase conver=
ters do&nbsp; not like cold weather. You have pre heat them before you start=
 them but like hot weather&nbsp; There again just the opposite Because norma=
l&nbsp; 3 phase situations like cold weather. You dealing with a complete di=
fferent opposite theoretical understanding here. of A/C current. <BR>
<BR>
EFF varies&nbsp; some if your only receiving say 89 Volts as opposed to 120=20=
V&nbsp; FROM the grid&nbsp; Discard your phase angle book also.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
YOU will have to totally start over. With a clean sheet of paper. All&nbsp;=20=
you get is the concept and a demo that is all you will ever see. Unless you=20=
can figure out the rest. NOBEL minds are clueless to So Good luck&nbsp; IF Y=
OUR high end world class basically self taught electrical type with NO forma=
l training grasping the concept is easy. Because you have no restrictive roa=
dblock boat anchor theories to get in your way then. <BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; is the data from Infinite Energy's tests available so we can have a=
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
look for ourselves?&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; I sent=
 them out but did not keep them I will&nbsp; ask Eric Kreig if he has the fi=
le they sent&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I just called the 50 million dollar Tech cent=
er here to get a copy from them but there closed because of the snow storm.&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE had given them copy's and then they scanned them and se=
nt a file to me <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; You going to be farther ahead if you call me also so the conceptual a=
spects can be explained because you basically do not have a starting point b=
y looking at the files without one. But that is up to you My no is 810 618 9=
234&nbsp; They were getting 92% EFF <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:=20=
5px">which in OU terms is about 700% This has to be looked at in a different=
 way&nbsp;&nbsp; You cannot use any known theory.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; <B>Because none appli=
es It is all new theory PERIOD&nbsp; I'm surprised I.E. did not kill themele=
ss with the cluster you <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000f=
f 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">know wh=
at they put together because your dealing with 3 phase power. It is very saf=
e and Idiot proof as far as the pre production&nbsp; units.&nbsp; But it is=20=
totally obsolete to us and is not worth our time to manuf. It is Model T com=
pared to space shuttle we will Manuf. AS you can see I'm very jaded </B><BR>
<BR>
Jon<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <129.24b04e95.2b97d1fc aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:19:40 EST
Subject: Re: 3 Phase Miracle! And The Geomagnetic Dynamo
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          YOUR thinking says OU is creating  more output than imput    NO NO 
NO    THE correct thinking is power has to come from somewhere and is 
converted or used   THE KEY to understanding is to figure out where it is 
coming from  THAT makes sense  what your saying does not .

 LETS look at what your saying    I have an Gal of water  HOw do I turn it 
into a Gal and a half. ????? I have a rock How do I make it a Rock and a half 
?  Gal Of Gas < Cube Of Gas  THE same apply's to a unit of electricity  THAT 
OU is totally moronic  Thinking. BUT it is in Some BOOK  Witch is an opinion 
Only.   BUT it is the absolute LAW>  YOU people actually fell for line of S-T 
     If so DO you want to buy a nice bridge????      

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>YOUR thinking says OU is creating&nbsp; mor=
e output than imput&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NO NO NO&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THE correct=
 thinking is power has to come from somewhere and is converted or used&nbsp;=
&nbsp; THE KEY to understanding is to figure out where it is coming from&nbs=
p; THAT makes sense&nbsp; what your saying does not .<BR>
<BR>
 LETS look at what your saying&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have an Gal of water&nbsp=
; HOw do I turn it into a Gal and a half. ????? I have a rock How do I make=20=
it a Rock and a half ?&nbsp; Gal Of Gas &lt; Cube Of Gas&nbsp; THE same appl=
y's to a unit of electricity&nbsp; THAT OU is totally moronic&nbsp; Thinking=
. BUT it is in Some BOOK&nbsp; Witch is an opinion Only.&nbsp;&nbsp; BUT it=20=
is the absolute LAW&gt;&nbsp; YOU people actually fell for line of S-T&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If so DO you want to buy a nice bridge????&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 14:57:22 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:55:23 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: IN the box Scientific Types  total ignorance
Cc: editor sierratimes.com
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At 3:05 PM 3/5/3, JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 3/5/03 12:23:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>hheffner mtaonline.net writes:
>
>
>> First, the effect you have on the electric company's distribution system
>> and other customers is the electric company's business.
>   REPLY   Yes if we are      BUT we have no effect  unless we are feeding
>back and that is a positive effect. WE are only using what is provided in a
>more EFF manor as an end result operational situation  That you do not appear
>to have clue one how to grasp and are running your mouth  about something you
>apparently have zero knowledge about


This is a discussion about buisness practices, not science.  You already
stated that you are incapable of serious scientific or mathematical
discussion and that you are not capable of clear writing.



>    If you cause>
>> significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be
>> forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.  There are rigorous
>> specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect
>> broadcast reception as well.
>>
>> Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you own.
>> If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extract
>> unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter", then
>> you may find yourself facing fraud charges.
>     REPLY   IF IDIOT  THEY  provide power to me that comes past my meter and
>it contains aspects they cannot meter that is not my PROBLEM IT IS THEIR
>problem


I suggest, if your device extracts energy from the utility without
registering on the meter that you become familiar with fraud laws in any
area you intend to market the device.  Fraud laws will not give you special
dispensation if you knowingly take services from an electric utility
without paying for it.  On the contrary, you may even find that special
penalties apply if you use or sell a device to extract unmetered energy
from the utility system.  You should check this out very carefully for each
area you market.  I suggest you get an attorney to check this out for you.




> SO i suggest they do not delivery them to me. IT is not against the
>law MORON to figure out a more EFF. way to use the delivered power.


The issue is not efficiency of use but rather whether the meter records the
energy taken from the utility.  Your suggestions and your assumptions do
not and can not change the definition of fraud.  Fraud is carfully defined.
It is up to you to figure out if what you are doing falls within that
definition.  If it does, then you can not shirk that fact off with your
suggestions, inuendo, or ad hominem attacks.  If your device takes energy
from the utility that is unmetered than using or selling it may well fall
within the definition of fraud in your local jourisdiction.


> ARE you
>hitting a Crack pipe or something. If it is jerk off I have a group of
>Billionaires that we are in the process of dealing with that will get that
>law changed


Now we see the true colors of what kind of business man you actually are.


>
> Regardless of that  Stop and think for once. Or am I asking to much from
>you. ?? Because you did not stop and think before you wrote this moronic mail
> BOTTOM LINE     Do you think the pubic is going to say we cannot buy them


Yep, I say it is not liklely you can buy the public.  They are too smart.


>because they use aspects of electricity. That we are all ready paying for but
>we are supposed to waste them.  Because the power CO says so and they are
>GOD,  So we have to follow there directions.


What I said was your load must meet specifications or you can be denied
service.  It is that simple.  If you take energy from the utility you will
have to pay for it.  If you disrupt other customers you will be made to
desist.  Isn't that all simple good business?


>
> HELLO  FYI This is the real world if the public can reduce their bills 75%
>WHAT DO YOU THINK their response is going to BE ??? Wake the hell up. You
>appearently cannot grasp any aspects of the over all equation this situations
>creates.


If it were simply a matter of public opinion then the public could simply
mandate that their electric bills be reduced by 75%.


>
>MORON IF YOU do not want to not use that aspect all ready contained in the
>delivery process of A/C current and waste it I care less be my guest. But I'm
>not that ignorant Thank You  YOU problem is your supposed to understand the
>Tech. dynamics of the operational situations I'm speaking of.  But you do not
>it appears and your copping an attitude because of that inability of yours.
>You thought you knew all there was to know about physics  because your EDu.
>said you did and now you may SQUAT


We are not discussing physics. We are discussing business practice.


>If such a practice were>
>> prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or
>> legislation to deal with it.  The decision as to whether your action falls
>> within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to
>> prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.  I suggest you call the DA's
>> office.
>>
>> Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with any
>> business sense at all will require certification of the device by
>> Underwriters Labs.  Good luck getting certification from UL on any device
>> that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the utility
>> power.  Good luck getting business liability insurance without UL
>> certification!
>>          REPLY     YOUR assuming  Smart people do not do that,  only total
>> FOOLS do. What if what your assuming is not the case at all?


In that case you won't need to buy the public or need your billionairs to
change any laws, will you?  8^)



>Your not
>> addressing that at all are you ??????? FYI Info Clown You  would have been
>> told if you asked,  witch you did not.  YOUR types know it all and never
>> ask ALL you do is assume. And by doing so made yourself appear as a
>> complete fool
>
>  FYI   Phase  conversion uses all ready UL approved off the shelf hardware
>that has been  modified. But that
>> modification does not effect the present UL rating at all
[snip]



If I were an investor, I would want to check with Underwriters Labs to make
sure this is correct.  Typically any modification of certified hardware
invalidates the cetertification.  Further, any device comprised of
certified parts cannot be assumed to be certifiable.  This is especially
true if the parts are not used in the manner intended.

Well, I now have a pretty good picture of what kind of business man you
are.  I see no reason to further discuss anything of any kind with you.
Please do not correspond with me privately.

Any material sent to my email addrss is treated as public domain, and can
even be expected to be published.  Only by prior agreement will any
information sent to my account be kept confidential.  I post this fact from
time to time here.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:09:24 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: The SonoFusor
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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What happens when ball-lightning meets the boom-box?

Part 1
A few years ago, George Miley, who knows a thing or two about LENR, sold =
a "real" fusion invention (warm, not cold) to Daimler-Benz Aerospace =
(DASA). His small =93Fusion Star=94 Inertial Electrostatic Confinement =
Fusion (IEC not ICF) is to be used as neutron source, with 5 x 10^6 =
neutron/sec (D-D) 2.45 MeV continuous-  with Automated Operation - is =
now in production and as impressive as it is, it was actually not nearly =
as robust as the invention that Miley copied, the Farnsworth Fusor of =
the '50s which achieved 10^10 n/sec using D+T. Also from that time =
period, Gow's deuterium "magnetron" is based on a similar principal and =
produced a surprising amount of neutrons.

There are many working fusors in garage labs around the USA, some like =
Richard Hull's producing more fusion neutrons than the $ billion =
megaflops of the "hot fusion program." Some great Fusor info can be =
found on the web staring at:
http://fusor.net/

BTW none if these Fusors are OU or even close.

Part 2
Recently Sonofusion has been in the news. This is ICF not IEC but the =
two technologies are surprisingly similar. Also not even close to OU. =
Many details are on the web, beginning with :
http://www.infinite-energy.com/IEHTML/FEATURE/FEATR/43BreakingNewsSonofus=
ion.html

Part 3
Also from the Farnsworth-fifties, there was a little known Russian =
reactor designed by P. Kapitza, the first major scientist to study "ball =
lightning" phenomena, who built a fusion device that produced a high =
pressure plasma ball  *inside* a H2 gas filled chamber. The ball was not =
at all quenched by the non-ionized gas around it. In fact the plasma was =
very stable, but was limited to lower temperatures 10-20 keV - about =
Fusor-level. A polarized, stratified  charge-interface sets up naturally =
between the plasma ball and the non-ionized gas, which prevents mixing =
and quenching. Note: an "effective" plasma pressure of 1 atm can balance =
out against a "real" gas pressure of 1 atm even though there is a =
million times more mass-density on the gas side than on the plasma side =
- if you have the correct kind of interface between the two.

Recipe for the SonoFusor:

Combine 1,2, and 3 into the same device. Saut=E9 at 20,000 volts and =
20,000 hertz simultaneously. Count you neuts....If you get over 10^12, =
find a good investment banker. If you get less than 10^5, unload it on =
eBay.

It would use no vacuum, but is filled with D2 gas at an effective =
pressure of ~1 atm; it requires two spherical grids like Miley's, the =
outer neg. grid being placed at the gas-plasma interface, but otherwise =
it is just a spherical pressure chamber, surrounded with a number of =
ultrasonic transducers placed around the circumference of the sphere =
(like 12 in a dodecagon config). H2 is far easier to ionize molecularly =
(H2-) which does not require dissociation at the gas/plasma interface - =
and ultrasonics should work fine with this molecular ion, with =
dissociation delayed, occurring in the central reaction zone itself.=20

There are a number of interesting cosmological anomalies that occur with =
combinations of plasmas, shock waves and sound waves - there is even a =
subfield called "ion-acoustics". When ion acoustic waves coincide near =
the Ion Plasma Frequency you get relative motion and effective kinetic =
energy that can be orders of magnitude higher than the real temperature. =
Getting these two frequencies in balance is difficult with a small =
device, but using harmonics of the main frequencies might work.

The notion behind this concept is that *spherical convergence* based on =
electrostatics can be augmented or boosted by spherical convergence =
based on ultrasonics, in order to effectively push the Lawson-like =
criteria of the Fusor to a robust level ( hopefully a couple of orders =
of magnitude greater!)... converting some jerk into jounce, so to =
speak...=20

...actual fusion breakeven is not the aim here, just a far more robust =
and efficient neutron generator to use in a hybridized sub-critical =
fusion/fission reactor... Going this route, as opposed to fusion-only or =
fission-only, has so many advantages: small size, burns up its own =
waste, complete fuel utilization, no fuel enrichment, etc. over =
conventional reactors that it is a no-brainer....but you need a lot of =
"extra" neutrons - cheaply, and you will never get them cheaply with a =
tokamak...

Jones




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<DIV>What happens when ball-lightning meets the boom-box?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Part 1</DIV>
<DIV>A few years ago, George Miley, who knows a thing or two about LENR, =
sold a=20
"real" fusion invention (warm, not cold) to Daimler-Benz Aerospace =
(DASA). His=20
small =93Fusion Star=94 Inertial Electrostatic Confinement Fusion (IEC =
not ICF) is=20
to be used as neutron source, with 5 x 10^6 neutron/sec (D-D) 2.45 MeV=20
continuous- &nbsp;with Automated Operation - is now in production and as =

impressive as it is, it was actually not nearly as robust as the =
invention that=20
Miley copied, the Farnsworth Fusor of the '50s which achieved 10^10 =
n/sec using=20
D+T. Also from that time period, Gow's deuterium&nbsp;"magnetron" is =
based on a=20
similar principal and produced a surprising amount of neutrons.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There are many working fusors in garage labs around the USA, some =
like=20
Richard Hull's producing more fusion neutrons than the $ billion =
megaflops of=20
the "hot fusion program." Some great Fusor info can be found on the web =
staring=20
at:</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://fusor.net/">http://fusor.net/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW none if these Fusors are OU or even close.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Part 2</DIV>
<DIV>Recently Sonofusion has been in the news. This is ICF not IEC but =
the two=20
technologies&nbsp;are surprisingly similar. Also not even close to OU. =
Many=20
details are on the web,&nbsp;beginning with&nbsp;:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.infinite-energy.com/IEHTML/FEATURE/FEATR/43BreakingNew=
sSonofusion.html">http://www.infinite-energy.com/IEHTML/FEATURE/FEATR/43B=
reakingNewsSonofusion.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Part 3</DIV>
<DIV>Also from the Farnsworth-fifties,&nbsp;there was&nbsp;a little =
known=20
Russian reactor designed by P. Kapitza, the first major scientist to =
study "ball=20
lightning" phenomena, who built a fusion device that produced a high =
pressure=20
plasma ball&nbsp; *inside* a H2 gas filled chamber. The ball was not at =
all=20
quenched by the non-ionized gas around it. In fact the plasma was very =
stable,=20
but was limited to lower temperatures 10-20 keV&nbsp;- about =
Fusor-level. A=20
polarized, stratified&nbsp; charge-interface sets up naturally between =
the=20
plasma ball and the non-ionized gas, which prevents mixing and =
quenching. Note:=20
an "effective" plasma pressure of 1 atm can balance out against a "real" =
gas=20
pressure of 1 atm even though there is a million times more mass-density =
on the=20
gas side than on the plasma side - if you have the correct kind of =
interface=20
between the two.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Recipe for the SonoFusor:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Combine 1,2, and 3 into the same device. Saut=E9 at 20,000 volts =
and 20,000=20
hertz simultaneously. Count you neuts....If you get over 10^12, find a =
good=20
investment banker. If you get less than 10^5, unload it on eBay.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It would use no vacuum, but is filled with D2 gas at an effective =
pressure=20
of ~1 atm; it&nbsp;requires two spherical grids like Miley's, the outer =
neg.=20
grid being placed at the gas-plasma interface, but otherwise it is just =
a=20
spherical pressure chamber, surrounded with a number of ultrasonic =
transducers=20
placed around the circumference of the sphere (like 12 in a dodecagon =
config).=20
H2 is far easier to ionize molecularly (H2-) which does not require =
dissociation=20
at the gas/plasma interface - and ultrasonics should work fine with this =

molecular ion, with dissociation delayed, occurring in the central =
reaction zone=20
itself. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There are a number of interesting cosmological anomalies that occur =
with=20
combinations of plasmas, shock waves&nbsp;and sound waves - there is =
even a=20
subfield called "ion-acoustics". When ion acoustic waves coincide near =
the Ion=20
Plasma Frequency you get relative motion and effective kinetic energy =
that can=20
be orders of magnitude higher than the real temperature. Getting these =
two=20
frequencies in&nbsp;balance is difficult with a small device, but using=20
harmonics of the main frequencies might work.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The notion behind this concept is that *spherical convergence* =
based on=20
electrostatics can be augmented or boosted by spherical convergence =
based on=20
ultrasonics, in order to effectively push the Lawson-like criteria of =
the Fusor=20
to a robust level ( hopefully a couple of orders of magnitude =
greater!)...=20
converting some jerk into jounce, so to speak... </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...actual fusion breakeven is not the aim here, just a =
far&nbsp;more robust=20
and efficient neutron generator to use in a hybridized sub-critical=20
fusion/fission reactor... Going this route, as opposed to fusion-only or =

fission-only,&nbsp;has so many advantages: small&nbsp;size, burns up its =
own=20
waste, complete fuel utilization, no fuel enrichment, etc.&nbsp;over=20
conventional reactors that it is a no-brainer....but you need a lot of =
"extra"=20
neutrons - cheaply, and you will never get them cheaply with a =
tokamak...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C2E2EE.88A7FE40--

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In a message dated 3/5/03 5:58:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> First, the effect you have on the electric company's distribution system
> >> and other customers is the electric company's business.
> >   REPLY   Yes if we are      BUT we have no effect  unless we are feeding
> >back and that is a positive effect. WE are only using what is provided in 
> a
> >more EFF manor as an end result operational situation  That you do not 
> appear
> >to have clue one how to grasp and are running your mouth  about something 
> you
> >apparently have zero knowledge about
> 
> 
> This is a discussion about buisness practices, not science.  You already
> stated that you are incapable of serious scientific or mathematical
> discussion and that you are not capable of clear writing.
> 
>     REPLY  I/ WE ONLY  discuss and disclose concepts only and provide demos 
> to prove the concepts PERIOD. Which is all that is necessary.  It appears 
> you do not have clue  one how to understand the concepts. What is your 
> problem?   I describe to the extent the point gets across. WE have a new 
> way that is very simple and the process works far easier than the normal 
> complicated way, science is accustom to conducting discussions. 

Since as far we know there no situations that are more advanced than ours. 
This new simple mode of discussion will > become the only one science will 
> use. Or when the new world Tech. ship sails so to speak. Your types will be 
> left at the dock to fend for yourself in what I call the cold dark 
> foreboding sea of Ignorance. WE cares less the choice is yours Is that 
> clear?  DO you understand that is that clear? WE will determine the level 
> of discussion because we are creating a totally new scientific Comm that is 
> not theory based. The new situation will be invention based         
> 
> >    If you cause>
> >> significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be
> >> forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.  There are rigorous
> >> specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect
> >> broadcast reception as well.
> >>
> >> Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you own.
> >> If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extract
> >> unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter", then
> >> you may find yourself facing fraud charges.
> >     REPLY   IF IDIOT  THEY  provide power to me that comes past my meter 
> and
> >it contains aspects they cannot meter that is not my PROBLEM IT IS THEIR
> >problem
> 
> 
> I suggest, if your device extracts energy from the utility without
> registering on the meter that you become familiar with fraud laws in any
> area you intend to market the device.  Fraud laws will not give you special
> dispensation if you knowingly take services from an electric utility
> without paying for it.  On the contrary, you may even find that special
> penalties apply if you use or sell a device to extract unmetered energy
> from the utility system.  You should check this out very carefully for each
> area you market.  I suggest you get an attorney to check this out for you.

>   REPLY   LISTEN UP   When that power passes my meter I'm paying for it.  
> CORRECT?  At that point so I'm using something I'm  paying for   HELLO    
> The same way I'm paying for the water. MORON> If the water is feeding say a 
> unit that splits it and creates hydrogen as say a Geninis unit . Am I using 
> unmetered water NO  WELL the phase converter splits the power it receives 
> the same as the hydrogen unit.  THERE is no difference Both are direct fed 
> situations.        WE have a Corp. lawyer 
> 
> > SO i suggest they do not delivery them to me. IT is not against the
> >law MORON to figure out a more EFF. way to use the delivered power.
> 
> 
> The issue is not efficiency of use but rather whether the meter records the
> energy taken from the utility.  Your suggestions and your assumptions do
> not and can not change the definition of fraud.  Fraud is carfully defined.
> It is up to you to figure out if what you are doing falls within that
> definition.  If it does, then you can not shirk that fact off with your
> suggestions, inuendo, or ad hominem attacks.  If your device takes energy
> from the utility that is unmetered than using or selling it may well fall
> within the definition of fraud in your local jourisdiction.
>    REPLY   HELLO  This is a after the meter process not a before the meter 
> process. IF was a before the meter process then yes there would be a theft. 
> situation. If i Pay for a Gal..or a cube of Nat gas at that point i own it. 
> THe same as the unit of electricty. WHAT I do with it is up to me as long 
> as I do not burn down someones house. I'm not braking any laws.  THere is 
> no  difference they are units of power that can be converted. CORRECT?     
> 
> > ARE you
> >hitting a Crack pipe or something. If it is jerk off I have a group of
> >Billionaires that we are in the process of dealing with that will get that>
> law changed
> 
> 
> Now we see the true colors of what kind of business man you actually are.
>       REPLY You appeared to spaced on something what do want me to think 
> with your moronic mail 
> >
> > Regardless of that  Stop and think for once. Or am I asking to much from
> >you. ?? Because you did not stop and think before you wrote this moronic 
> mail
> > BOTTOM LINE     Do you think the pubic is going to say we cannot buy them
> 
> 
> Yep, I say it is not liklely you can buy the public.  They are too smart.
> 
>   REPLY   I"M sorry your losing it I do not understand that one  
> >because they use aspects of electricity. That we are all ready paying for 
> but
> >we are supposed to waste them.  Because the power CO says so and they are
> >GOD,  So we have to follow there directions.
> 
> 
> What I said was your load must meet specifications or you can be denied
> service.  It is that simple.  If you take energy from the utility you will
> have to pay for it.  If you disrupt other customers you will be made to
> desist.  Isn't that all simple good business?
>    REPLY   WHAT Specifications MORON???????  I have a 2500 SQ Ft home You 
> have say 6000 Sq Home our  specififcations are totally different
> >
> > HELLO  FYI This is the real world if the public can reduce their bills 75%
> 
> >WHAT DO YOU THINK their response is going to BE ??? Wake the hell up. You
> >appearently cannot grasp any aspects of the over all equation this 
> situationscreates.
> 
> 
> If it were simply a matter of public opinion then the public could simply
> mandate that their electric bills be reduced by 75%.
>    REPLY   YOU tell them to lower your bill and see what happens?  But if 
> you offer the public a product that reduces their bill that amount you 
> going to swamped with customes.     
> 
> >
> >MORON IF YOU do not want to not use that aspect all ready contained in the
> >delivery process of A/C current and waste it I care less be my guest. But 
> I'm
> >not that ignorant Thank You  YOU problem is your supposed to understand 
> the
> >Tech. dynamics of the operational situations I'm speaking of.  But you do 
> not
> >it appears and your copping an attitude because of that inability of 
> yours.
> >You thought you knew all there was to know about physics  because your 
> EDu.
> >said you did and now you may SQUAT
> 
> We are not discussing physics. We are discussing business practice.
> 
> >If such a practice were>
> >> prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or
> >> legislation to deal with it.  The decision as to whether your action 
> falls
> >> within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to
> >> prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.  I suggest you call the DA's
> >> office.
> >>
> >> Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with any
> >> business sense at all will require certification of the device by
> >> Underwriters Labs.  Good luck getting certification from UL on any 
> device
> >> that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the 
> utility
> >> power.  Good luck getting business liability insurance without UL
> >> certification!
> >>          REPLY     YOUR assuming  Smart people do not do that,  only 
> total
> >> FOOLS do. What if what your assuming is not the case at all?
> 
> 
> In that case you won't need to buy the public or need your billionairs to
> change any laws, will you?  8^)    REPLY  NO  then the big money boys are 
> the shield in either case 
> 
> >Your not
> >> addressing that at all are you ??????? FYI Info Clown You  would have 
> been
> >> told if you asked,  witch you did not.  YOUR types know it all and never
> >> ask ALL you do is assume. And by doing so made yourself appear as a
> >> complete fool
> >
> >  FYI   Phase  conversion uses all ready UL approved off the shelf 
> hardware
> >that has been  modified. But that
> >> modification does not effect the present UL rating at allsnip]
> 
> If I were an investor, I would want to check with Underwriters Labs to make
> sure this is correct.  Typically any modification of certified hardware
> invalidates the cetertification.  Further, any device comprised of
> certified parts cannot be assumed to be certifiable.  This is especially
> true if the parts are not used in the manner intended.
>   REPLY AN electric motor is still an electric motor and the phase 
> converter uses an electric motor.  
> Well, I now have a pretty good picture of what kind of business man you
> are.  I see no reason to further discuss anything of any kind with you.
> Please do not correspond with me privately.
>  REPLY   Another assumption as usual without a complete investigation.  
> Which is Typical of how a know it all my opinion is the only correct 
> opinion fool acts  Because Only verbal communication can be used as a 
> finial determining factor. Because the same  written subject matter can be 
> interrupted several different ways.    
> Any material sent to my email addrss is treated as public domain, and can
> even be expected to be published.  Only by prior agreement will any
> information sent to my account be kept confidential.  I post this fact from
> time to time here.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 5:58:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">First, the effect you have on t=
he electric company's distribution system<BR>
&gt;&gt; and other customers is the electric company's business.<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes if we are&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; BUT we have no effect&nbsp; unless we are feeding<BR>
&gt;back and that is a positive effect. WE are only using what is provided i=
n a<BR>
&gt;more EFF manor as an end result operational situation&nbsp; That you do=20=
not appear<BR>
&gt;to have clue one how to grasp and are running your mouth&nbsp; about som=
ething you<BR>
&gt;apparently have zero knowledge about<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This is a discussion about buisness practices, not science.&nbsp; You alread=
y<BR>
stated that you are incapable of serious scientific or mathematical<BR>
discussion and that you are not capable of clear writing.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; I/ WE ONLY&nbsp; discuss and disclose conc=
epts only and provide demos to prove the concepts PERIOD. Which is all that=20=
is necessary.&nbsp; It appears you do not have clue&nbsp; one how to underst=
and the concepts. What is your problem?&nbsp;&nbsp; I describe to the extent=
 the point gets across. WE have a new way that is very simple and the proces=
s works far easier than the normal complicated way, science is accustom to c=
onducting discussions. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLO=
CKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
Since as far we know there no situations that are more advanced than ours. T=
his new simple mode of discussion will <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORD=
ER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEF=
T: 5px">become the only one science will use. Or when the new world Tech. sh=
ip sails so to speak. Your types will be left at the dock to fend for yourse=
lf in what I call the cold dark foreboding sea of Ignorance. WE cares less t=
he choice is yours Is that clear?&nbsp; DO you understand that is that clear=
? WE will determine the level of discussion because we are creating a totall=
y new scientific Comm that is not theory based. The new situation will be in=
vention based&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you cause&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered an=
d be<BR>
&gt;&gt; forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.&nbsp; There are=20=
rigorous<BR>
&gt;&gt; specifications on acceptable power loads and on signals that affect=
<BR>
&gt;&gt; broadcast reception as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Second, it is not necessarily so that what gets past your meter you=
 own.<BR>
&gt;&gt; If it can be shown that you knowingly use or sell a device to extra=
ct<BR>
&gt;&gt; unmetered energy from the utility system, i.e. to "beat the meter",=
 then<BR>
&gt;&gt; you may find yourself facing fraud charges.<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; IF IDIOT&nbsp; THEY&nbsp; pro=
vide power to me that comes past my meter and<BR>
&gt;it contains aspects they cannot meter that is not my PROBLEM IT IS THEIR=
<BR>
&gt;problem<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I suggest, if your device extracts energy from the utility without<BR>
registering on the meter that you become familiar with fraud laws in any<BR>
area you intend to market the device.&nbsp; Fraud laws will not give you spe=
cial<BR>
dispensation if you knowingly take services from an electric utility<BR>
without paying for it.&nbsp; On the contrary, you may even find that special=
<BR>
penalties apply if you use or sell a device to extract unmetered energy<BR>
from the utility system.&nbsp; You should check this out very carefully for=20=
each<BR>
area you market.&nbsp; I suggest you get an attorney to check this out for y=
ou.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; LISTEN UP&nbsp;&nbsp; When that=
 power passes my meter I'm paying for it.&nbsp; CORRECT?&nbsp; At that point=
 so I'm using something I'm&nbsp; paying for&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; The same way I'm paying for the water. MORON&gt; If the water is feedin=
g say a unit that splits it and creates hydrogen as say a Geninis unit . Am=20=
I using unmetered water NO&nbsp; WELL the phase converter splits the power i=
t receives the same as the hydrogen unit.&nbsp; THERE is no difference Both=20=
are direct fed situations.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WE have=
 a Corp. lawyer </B><BR>
<BR>
&gt; SO i suggest they do not delivery them to me. IT is not against the<BR>
&gt;law MORON to figure out a more EFF. way to use the delivered power.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The issue is not efficiency of use but rather whether the meter records the<=
BR>
energy taken from the utility.&nbsp; Your suggestions and your assumptions d=
o<BR>
not and can not change the definition of fraud.&nbsp; Fraud is carfully defi=
ned.<BR>
It is up to you to figure out if what you are doing falls within that<BR>
definition.&nbsp; If it does, then you can not shirk that fact off with your=
<BR>
suggestions, inuendo, or ad hominem attacks.&nbsp; If your device takes ener=
gy<BR>
from the utility that is unmetered than using or selling it may well fall<BR=
>
within the definition of fraud in your local jourisdiction.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO&nbsp; This is a after the meter proc=
ess not a before the meter process. IF was a before the meter process then y=
es there would be a theft. situation. If i Pay for a Gal..or a cube of Nat g=
as at that point i own it. THe same as the unit of electricty. WHAT I do wit=
h it is up to me as long as I do not burn down someones house. I'm not braki=
ng any laws.&nbsp; THere is no&nbsp; difference they are units of power that=
 can be converted. CORRECT?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
&gt; ARE you<BR>
&gt;hitting a Crack pipe or something. If it is jerk off I have a group of<B=
R>
&gt;Billionaires that we are in the process of dealing with that will get th=
at&gt;law changed<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now we see the true colors of what kind of business man you actually are.<BR=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY You appeared to spaced on something=20=
what do want me to think with your moronic mail </B><BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Regardless of that&nbsp; Stop and think for once. Or am I asking to muc=
h from<BR>
&gt;you. ?? Because you did not stop and think before you wrote this moronic=
 mail<BR>
&gt; BOTTOM LINE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you think the pubic is going to=20=
say we cannot buy them<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I say it is not liklely you can buy the public.&nbsp; They are too smar=
t.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I"M sorry your losing it I do not understand tha=
t one&nbsp; </B><BR>
&gt;because they use aspects of electricity. That we are all ready paying fo=
r but<BR>
&gt;we are supposed to waste them.&nbsp; Because the power CO says so and th=
ey are<BR>
&gt;GOD,&nbsp; So we have to follow there directions.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What I said was your load must meet specifications or you can be denied<BR>
service.&nbsp; It is that simple.&nbsp; If you take energy from the utility=20=
you will<BR>
have to pay for it.&nbsp; If you disrupt other customers you will be made to=
<BR>
desist.&nbsp; Isn't that all simple good business?<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; WHAT Specifications MORON???????&nbsp; I h=
ave a 2500 SQ Ft home You have say 6000 Sq Home our&nbsp; specififcations ar=
e totally different</B><BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; HELLO&nbsp; FYI This is the real world if the public can reduce their b=
ills 75%<BR>
&gt;WHAT DO YOU THINK their response is going to BE ??? Wake the hell up. Yo=
u<BR>
&gt;appearently cannot grasp any aspects of the over all equation this situa=
tionscreates.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If it were simply a matter of public opinion then the public could simply<BR=
>
mandate that their electric bills be reduced by 75%.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU tell them to lower your bill and see w=
hat happens?&nbsp; But if you offer the public a product that reduces their=20=
bill that amount you going to swamped with customes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <BR>
</B><BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;MORON IF YOU do not want to not use that aspect all ready contained in t=
he<BR>
&gt;delivery process of A/C current and waste it I care less be my guest. Bu=
t I'm<BR>
&gt;not that ignorant Thank You&nbsp; YOU problem is your supposed to unders=
tand the<BR>
&gt;Tech. dynamics of the operational situations I'm speaking of.&nbsp; But=20=
you do not<BR>
&gt;it appears and your copping an attitude because of that inability of you=
rs.<BR>
&gt;You thought you knew all there was to know about physics&nbsp; because y=
our EDu.<BR>
&gt;said you did and now you may SQUAT<BR>
<BR>
We are not discussing physics. We are discussing business practice.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;If such a practice were&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; prevalent you could also expect additional specific regulation or<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; legislation to deal with it.&nbsp; The decision as to whether your=20=
action falls<BR>
&gt;&gt; within existing state or local fraud definitions, i.e. whether to<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; prosecute, lies with the local prosecutor.&nbsp; I suggest you call=
 the DA's<BR>
&gt;&gt; office.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Lastly, and maybe most importantly, in my opinion an investor with=20=
any<BR>
&gt;&gt; business sense at all will require certification of the device by<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; Underwriters Labs.&nbsp; Good luck getting certification from UL on=
 any device<BR>
&gt;&gt; that induces major spikes or causes significant phase shifts in the=
 utility<BR>
&gt;&gt; power.&nbsp; Good luck getting business liability insurance without=
 UL<BR>
&gt;&gt; certification!<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOUR assuming&nbsp; Smart people do not do that,&nbsp; only=
 total<BR>
&gt;&gt; FOOLS do. What if what your assuming is not the case at all?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In that case you won't need to buy the public or need your billionairs to<BR=
>
change any laws, will you?&nbsp; 8^)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; NO&nbs=
p; then the big money boys are the shield in either case </B><BR>
<BR>
&gt;Your not<BR>
&gt;&gt; addressing that at all are you ??????? FYI Info Clown You&nbsp; wou=
ld have been<BR>
&gt;&gt; told if you asked,&nbsp; witch you did not.&nbsp; YOUR types know i=
t all and never<BR>
&gt;&gt; ask ALL you do is assume. And by doing so made yourself appear as a=
<BR>
&gt;&gt; complete fool<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&nbsp; FYI&nbsp;&nbsp; Phase&nbsp; conversion uses all ready UL approved=
 off the shelf hardware<BR>
&gt;that has been&nbsp; modified. But that<BR>
&gt;&gt; modification does not effect the present UL rating at allsnip]<BR>
<BR>
If I were an investor, I would want to check with Underwriters Labs to make<=
BR>
sure this is correct.&nbsp; Typically any modification of certified hardware=
<BR>
invalidates the cetertification.&nbsp; Further, any device comprised of<BR>
certified parts cannot be assumed to be certifiable.&nbsp; This is especiall=
y<BR>
true if the parts are not used in the manner intended.<BR>
&nbsp; REPLY<B> AN electric motor is still an electric motor and the phase c=
onverter uses an electric motor.&nbsp; </B><BR>
Well, I now have a pretty good picture of what kind of business man you<BR>
are.&nbsp; I see no reason to further discuss anything of any kind with you.=
<BR>
Please do not correspond with me privately.<BR>
 <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Another assumption as usual without a complete investi=
gation.&nbsp; Which is Typical of how a know it all my opinion is the only c=
orrect opinion fool acts&nbsp; Because Only verbal communication can be used=
 as a finial determining factor. Because the same&nbsp; written subject matt=
er can be interrupted several different ways.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
Any material sent to my email addrss is treated as public domain, and can<BR=
>
even be expected to be published.&nbsp; Only by prior agreement will any<BR>
information sent to my account be kept confidential.&nbsp; I post this fact=20=
from<BR>
time to time here.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Horace Heffner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Message-ID: <3E669E73.9080400 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:03:47 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Typically any modification of certified hardware
>invalidates the cetertification.  
>

Without doubt.

In some cities, particularly San Fransisco and Chicago (an earthquake 
and a cow), the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) is more stringent 
than UL or CSA.  And it is the AHJ who determines whether you connect to 
the mains in every major city.

Terry

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:42:10 EST
Subject: Re: The SonoFusor
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   Jones    I SENT YOU A  operational  not theory 5 GAL BUCKET sized Nuclear 
reactor tech.   ONE OF the  people I have  REp. For to an extent sent me.  
THat produces No waste, B grade material and is self regutating did you grasp 
it Jones. ?  In theory 6 driving steam engines or turbines that in turn 
operate Gen. would provide power to the old world trade center  You did not 
respond ?  

 THat file  was shown to the National Security Council by a CIA contact of 
the DEV. who is also Ex CIA  while in the Marines in Vietnam  Plus Has 3 
Ph.d's but not In NP And An EX College Professor. He saw it ona Govt. Black 
project and reverse ENg. what he saw.   So you should have an idea where the 
Tech. came from  

  PLus  Los Alamos and Berkley all seen the files and were clueless are you 
also ?????  THat technology renders current Nuke thinking back to the ice age 
 NO one has requested to see it probably  Because if they have any nuclear 
knowledge when they viewed the file they may  find out how little they 
actually know  That is all i can assume at this point 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Jones&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; I SENT YOU A&nbsp; operational&nbsp; not theory 5 GAL BUCKET=20=
sized Nuclear reactor tech.&nbsp;&nbsp; ONE OF the&nbsp; people I have&nbsp;=
 REp. For to an extent sent me.&nbsp; THat produces No waste, B grade materi=
al and is self regutating did you grasp it Jones. ?&nbsp; In theory 6 drivin=
g steam engines or turbines that in turn operate Gen. would provide power to=
 the old world trade center&nbsp; You did not respond ?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 THat file&nbsp; was shown to the National Security Council by a CIA contact=
 of the DEV. who is also Ex CIA&nbsp; while in the Marines in Vietnam&nbsp;=20=
Plus Has 3 Ph.d's but not In NP And An EX College Professor. He saw it ona G=
ovt. Black project and reverse ENg. what he saw.&nbsp;&nbsp; So you should h=
ave an idea where the Tech. came from&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; PLus&nbsp; Los Alamos and Berkley all seen the files and were clueles=
s are you also ?????&nbsp; THat technology renders current Nuke thinking bac=
k to the ice age&nbsp; NO one has requested to see it probably&nbsp; Because=
 if they have any nuclear knowledge when they viewed the file they may&nbsp;=
 find out how little they actually know&nbsp; That is all i can assume at th=
is point </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen conversion
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 13:41:15 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <0ocd6vo2knhk2s4godh2g6r1bjanihfbrv 4ax.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAECIDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:33:45 -0500:
Hi Keith,
[snip]

>Yielding the perverse result I was referring to, 120% efficient.

Yup.

>
>If I run an electrolyser cell, storing the gas rather than
>recombining it, will it then be the case that the cell will grow
>cooler?

If you run the electrolysis at any voltage below 1.48 V, the cell will grow cooler. However the maximum efficiency is not obtained until you run at about
1.23 V. Below that, electrolysis should cease altogether.
However I think you will find that very little current will flow at such low voltages, and you will need to use very large plates that are very close together.

Also, even though you get up to 120%, this will do you no good, unless you just intend to burn the H2 for heating purposes.
However in this case, you would probably have been better off using the original electricity to power a reverse cycle heater/air-con.
(which can have a COP of several hundred %, iso a meager 120).
[snip]

BTW I would appreciate it if you would clear the default "reply to" field in your email program.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  5 19:06:37 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:01:46 EST
Subject:   thanks Terry  or should i say Horace Jr.  AS I said no challenge 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/5/03 8:04:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:


> Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> >Typically any modification of certified hardware
> >invalidates the cetertification.  
> >
> 
> Without doubt.
> 
> In some cities, particularly San Fransisco and Chicago (an earthquake 
> and a cow), the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) is more stringent 
> than UL or CSA.  And it is the AHJ who determines whether you connect to 
> the mains in every major city.
> 
> Terry     REPLY   You people are acting like Stop Stop Stop Him we cannot 
> explain  this new tech. He will make Fools of us in the SCI. Comm  with it  
>  HELLO  this situation  solves power demand problems on this planet.. Where 
> do these moronic reactions come from  By the way The Chicago Fire in 1871 
> was caused by a Meteor that hit 30 miles away? Mrs. O leary  was Irish and 
> at that time the Irish at the bottom of the social scale. 

 You learn that kind of knowledge by reading peoples journals they kept 
during that period not from some history book. > Please  AS you read Edison's 
> notes not what some history books says about him.   THIS is all a MOOT 
> point WE Have a self contained DC to AC that the 50 million dollar Tech. 
> center here saw being constructed. 

   That we are not going to manuf. either because will have a far better 
situation soon.  That is totally devoid of any conversion of energy theories. 
That little situation is the  absolute end of your little parade main stream 
science     ANY time you use grid power as > with phase conversion you open up 
> a can of worms. 

   The phase Con  would have been manuf. and could be a two trillion dollar 
Tech. But it is not worth the hassle and these > exchanges about the situation 
> proved that. DC to AC along takes main stream science totally out of the 
> picture as far as them attempting to use there conversion of energy  theory 
> driven hammer. 

  That they would use to try and stop it all because of their  Giant ego's. 
Would be the only reason they would attempt to > use that game as Horace 
> attempted with phase conversion. If Horace did not have that big Ego his 
> response would have been great maybe we have something that we can finally 
> solve some of major problems with. 

    That is the prime reason main stream science has to go the way of the 
dinosaur because they are impeding progress > with their totally counter 
> productive roadblock attitudes.  I have 3 years of practice playing this 
> game people I'm Glad john Herman did not come here with Bruce meland  The 
> Editor of E times or Eric Kreig had anyone check     
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 8:04:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Horace Heffner wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;Typically any modification of certified hardware<BR>
&gt;invalidates the cetertification.&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Without doubt.<BR>
<BR>
In some cities, particularly San Fransisco and Chicago (an earthquake <BR>
and a cow), the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) is more stringent <BR>
than UL or CSA.&nbsp; And it is the AHJ who determines whether you connect t=
o <BR>
the mains in every major city.<BR>
<BR>
Terry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; You people are acting lik=
e Stop Stop Stop Him we cannot explain&nbsp; this new tech. He will make Foo=
ls of us in the SCI. Comm&nbsp; with it&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO&nbsp; this situati=
on&nbsp; solves power demand problems on this planet.. Where do these moroni=
c reactions come from&nbsp; By the way The Chicago Fire in 1871 was caused b=
y a Meteor that hit 30 miles away? Mrs. O leary&nbsp; was Irish and at that=20=
time the Irish at the bottom of the social scale. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
 You learn that kind of knowledge by reading peoples journals they kept duri=
ng that period not from some history book. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"=
BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING=
-LEFT: 5px">Please&nbsp; AS you read Edison's notes not what some history bo=
oks says about him.&nbsp;&nbsp; THIS is all a MOOT point WE Have a self cont=
ained DC to AC that the 50 million dollar Tech. center here saw being constr=
ucted. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S=
IZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; That we are not=
 going to manuf. either because will have a far better situation soon.&nbsp;=
 That is totally devoid of any conversion of energy theories. That little si=
tuation is the&nbsp; absolute end of your little parade main stream science&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ANY time you use grid power as <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCI=
TE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT:=20=
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">with phase conversion you open up a can of worms. </=
FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 F=
AMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; The phase Con&n=
bsp; would have been manuf. and could be a two trillion dollar Tech. But it=20=
is not worth the hassle and these <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LE=
FT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5p=
x">exchanges about the situation proved that. DC to AC along takes main stre=
am science totally out of the picture as far as them attempting to use there=
 conversion of energy&nbsp; theory driven hammer. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00=
0000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; That they would use t=
o try and stop it all because of their&nbsp; Giant ego's. Would be the only=20=
reason they would attempt to <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #=
0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">us=
e that game as Horace attempted with phase conversion. If Horace did not hav=
e that big Ego his response would have been great maybe we have something th=
at we can finally solve some of major problems with. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" F=
ACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That is the prime reason main stream science has to go th=
e way of the dinosaur because they are impeding progress <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=
=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RI=
GHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">with their totally counter productive roadblock=
 attitudes.&nbsp; I have 3 years of practice playing this game people I'm Gl=
ad john Herman did not come here with Bruce meland&nbsp; The Editor of E tim=
es or Eric Kreig had anyone check&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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Message-ID: <1c7.6377c9e.2b981c1e aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:35:58 EST
Subject: Fwd: [free_energy] LUTEC UPDATE
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         This was basically turkey when Bruce Meland Pub. this above us on 
his front page. Unless they really improved it because there test Wayne saw 
did not make sense   And Dow Corning once called him a living version of 
Tesla and Einstein so he should know  He said Some guy had basically the same 
type of situation 20 years ago in Calif. It is basically Tesla. But they 
claimed it was there own creation as most do. 

My 90% call is they are attempting to blue sky you with the mail.  I all 
ready know it is not any compition . I talk to Mr. Full of himself Paul 
Pantone last night and he said he will have some kind self contained 
electrical situation by the end of the year. No comment just passing it on. 

WE cannot comment until an investigation is completed unlike people on Vortex 
that 95% of the time make assumptions and reach conclusions from E mails only 
   That is one thing I will never figure out how to accomplish because there 
is now way that is possible Unless your GOD. 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>This was basically turkey when Bruce Meland Pub.=20=
this above us on his front page. Unless they really improved it because ther=
e test Wayne saw did not make sense&nbsp;&nbsp; And Dow Corning once called=20=
him a living version of Tesla and Einstein so he should know&nbsp; He said S=
ome guy had basically the same type of situation 20 years ago in Calif. It i=
s basically Tesla. But they claimed it was there own creation as most do. <B=
R>
<BR>
My 90% call is they are attempting to blue sky you with the mail.&nbsp; I al=
l ready know it is not any compition . I talk to Mr. Full of himself Paul Pa=
ntone last night and he said he will have some kind self contained electrica=
l situation by the end of the year. No comment just passing it on. <BR>
<BR>
WE cannot comment until an investigation is completed unlike people on Vorte=
x that 95% of the time make assumptions and reach conclusions from E mails o=
nly&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That is one thing I will never figure out how to accom=
plish because there is now way that is possible Unless your GOD. </B></FONT>=
</HTML>

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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:52:33 -0000
Subject: [free_energy] LUTEC UPDATE
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LUTEC MARCH UPDATE

LUTEC MARCH UPDATE

We have been receiving a lot of mail from the USA and Europe from 
people wanting either to invest in our work, or who would like the 
distribution rights for the USA or Canada, or a European country or 
some other place.

We are engaged in final detail talks with a US corporation for the 
Global rights to handle the Lutec Technology. This will allow them to 
handle the Lutec 1000 generator, and also to provide licenses to 
others wanting to develop up different products using the patented 
core technology behind the Lutec electricity generating system. An 
example of one such possible use is an engine for a
vehicle or similar.

















W.com.au/updates.htm


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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:13:46 EST
Subject: THe Roadblock that theory creates 
To: eric voicenet.com, free_energy@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/5/03 10:54:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
eric voicenet.com writes:
>=20
>=20
>           There are 10 pages discussing Joe Newman, ending with Tutt posin=
g=20
> this question about Newman: =E2=80=9CIf he=E2=80=99s saying that the machi=
ne is more than=20
> 100 per cent efficient, why can=E2=80=99t he simply close the loop and mak=
e the=20
> machine self-sustaining? Some observers will draw their own conclusions=20
> from the fact that Newman has not even chosen to attempt such a feat
>                                 NOW  THIS is something that is not=20
> possible.  Plus it makes zero sense Because power has to come from=20
> somewhere  PERIOD   That is being converted  such as Steven Greers device.=
 =20
> That  unit is converting neutrinos which is the incorrect way. Because tha=
t=20
> process is not natural. As the splitting of a molecule of water is not .=20

   BUT is natural when  your body converts neutrinos  into electrical=20
situations that in turn=20
> provides  the power source that causes the chemical reactions to occur  Th=
at=20
> is called Base theory=20

   That type of a power can only be  used in its natural form..Our Phase=20
conversion is just a different > way of using electricity and natural earth=20
> supplied frequency's and we are not converting them. We are using them in=20
> their natural form. They occur because the planet absorbs neutrinos that=20
> are emitted by Stars and those frequency's are the result of that process.=
 =20
> =20

     You have to have a  CONSTANT  supply factor in order to perform a task.=
 =20
As your auto presently requires gas > to operate. That is how any power/ener=
gy=20
>  situation functions. . Whether it is known or not as in The Steven Greer=20
> conversion case. Because of that conversion process   that device will be=20
> radioactive in 2500 years. Because the unit converts radiant energy instea=
d=20
> of using it in its natural form .  Can you grasp cause and effect. ?????

   Tesla took all that knowledge with him to the grave because he knew what=20
the results would be. Now > you do to.  Whether you believe or disagree with=
=20
> the premise  or not is up to you.  I totally care less But what I'm saying=
=20
> makes SOME sense It may be from the 22 ND century   if you can see in that=
=20
> dynamic and 99% cannot.

   99% cannot  Because we have not evolved that far as of yet as a=20
civilization is why. Sorry but I have.   > and is why the first reaction to=20=
me=20
> is I'm crazy. That reaction is because of they way we are taught, which is=
=20
> to conform. If we were taught as a civilization creative thinking and free=
=20
> thought I would receive positive instead of negative reactions. =20

 We are at a point in our evolution that we are classified as a type 13=20
planet. Which means this or that > is not possible and it will not function=20=
no=20
> matter what? The reason for that thinking is basically because of  the=20
> giant counter productive, restrictive roadblock called theory,  which says=
=20
> it is not possible. That is the Catch 22  present main stream  science is=20
> caught up in.  =20
>=20


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/5/03=
 10:54:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There are 10 pages di=
scussing Joe Newman, ending with Tutt posing this question about Newman:=20=
=E2=80=9CIf he=E2=80=99s saying that the machine is more than 100 per cent e=
fficient, why can=E2=80=99t he simply close the loop and make the machine se=
lf-sustaining? Some observers will draw their own conclusions from the fact=20=
that Newman has not even chosen to attempt such a feat</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW&nbsp; THIS is something that is no=
t possible.&nbsp; Plus it makes zero sense Because power has to come from so=
mewhere&nbsp; PERIOD&nbsp;&nbsp; That is being converted&nbsp; such as Steve=
n Greers device.&nbsp; That&nbsp; unit is converting neutrinos which is the=20=
incorrect way. Because that process is not natural. As the splitting of a mo=
lecule of water is not . </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND=
-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B=
LOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>&nbsp; BUT is natural when&nbsp; your body c=
onverts neutrinos&nbsp; into electrical situations that in turn </FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>provides&nbsp; the power source that causes the chemical=
 reactions to occur&nbsp; That is called Base theory </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" F=
ACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; That type of a=20=
power can only be&nbsp; used in its natural form..Our Phase conversion is ju=
st a different <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px sol=
id; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">way of using ele=
ctricity and natural earth supplied frequency's and we are not converting th=
em. We are using them in their natural form. They occur because the planet a=
bsorbs neutrinos that are emitted by Stars and those frequency's are the res=
ult of that process.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You=
 have to have a&nbsp; CONSTANT&nbsp; supply factor in order to perform a tas=
k.&nbsp; As your auto presently requires gas <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px">to operate. That is how any power/energy&nbsp; situation fun=
ctions. . Whether it is known or not as in The Steven Greer conversion case.=
 Because of that conversion process&nbsp;&nbsp; that device will be radioact=
ive in 2500 years. Because the unit converts radiant energy instead of using=
 it in its natural form .&nbsp; Can you grasp cause and effect. ?????</FONT>=
<FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Tesla took all that knowledge with him to t=
he grave because he knew what the results would be. Now <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DC=
ITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT:=
 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">you do to.&nbsp; Whether you believe or disagree wi=
th the premise&nbsp; or not is up to you.&nbsp; I totally care less But what=
 I'm saying makes SOME sense It may be from the 22 ND century&nbsp;&nbsp; if=
 you can see in that dynamic and 99% cannot.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=20=
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  C=
OLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANS=
SERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">99% cannot&nbsp; Because we have not evolve=
d that far as of yet as a civilization is why. Sorry but I have.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEF=
T: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">and is why the first reaction=20=
to me is I'm crazy. That reaction is because of they way we are taught, whic=
h is to conform. If we were taught as a civilization creative thinking and f=
ree thought I would receive positive instead of negative reactions.&nbsp; </=
FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 F=
AMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">We are at a point in our evolution that we are classif=
ied as a type 13 planet. Which means this or that <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE st=
yle=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;=20=
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">is not possible and it will not function no matter what?=20=
The reason for that thinking is basically because of&nbsp; the giant counter=
 productive, restrictive roadblock called theory,&nbsp; which says it is not=
 possible. That is the Catch 22&nbsp; present main stream&nbsp; science is c=
aught up in.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 07:53:08 2003
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Message-ID: <3E676E43.20909 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:50:27 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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Subject: [OT] Shun Akiba and Underground Tokyo
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1200 miles of tunnel under Tokyo?  An interesting article:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20030301a1.htm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 09:42:59 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:39:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's comeupance
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Eric Krieg sent me the following:

>I have Jack to be unwilling to negotiate proper instrumentation that
>would be able to get to the bottom of his important claims.

Jack offered to let me test his device with a water heater. If F 
would drive me out to Flint, I'd go in a heart beat! I'd like to lay 
this matter to rest, and I want to see these brick and motor 
businesses that Jack has built. I just can't afford to waste time 
were I can't see any profit.

>
>I think all he does is just vent hostility and I have yet to find a single
>credible person who can vouch for what ever he has.

He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase 
water heater!

>
>He usually quotes crackpots who are even unwilling to support Jack.
>I feel all my time trying to nicely tell Jack how to convince people has
>been wasted.

He does quote crackpots, judging from his writing, I've decided that 
he is one. I don't understand why he can't get a patent on the 
device. We have established that he didn't invent it, but the person 
who did, or his estate, should be able to get one. Were I in his 
position, I would attempt to make an improvement on it and then 
patent it. It amazes me that someone who capable of running a 
business, would be such a door knob on intellectual property 
protection.

It really tickles me that he finds me boring, I have this to say 
about that, Jack, you have a telephone, go call someone who cares!

>
>you may quote me on this.

I will.

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 11:14:40 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 14:09:26 EST
Subject: Fwd: Jack Carey's comeupance
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In a message dated 3/6/03 12:43:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Eric Krieg sent me the following:
> 
> >I have Jack to be unwilling to negotiate proper instrumentation that
> >would be able to get to the bottom of his important claims.
>       REPLY   I even went so far as to  offer to to pick one his clones 
> that had all ready saw a public demo to see if they would accept  ALL they 
> do is play E mail games.  Infinite Energy  did not say anything about some 
> moronic water heater idea.  THey conducted  testing the real world way with 
> meters. DID you GET THE TAPE from Warren. ?? So you may have at least one 
> clue what this is all about before running you mouth. ; 
> Jack offered to let me test his device with a water heater. If F 
> would drive me out to Flint, I'd go in a heart beat! I'd like to lay 
> this matter to rest, and I want to see these brick and motor 
> businesses that Jack has built. I just can't afford to waste time 
> were I can't see any profit.
>   REPLY BY viewing the RUSSIAN web site and looking at www.faraday.ru  
> Mar/Apr  2002 issue I'M standing in front of one my businesses 
>  >
> >I think all he does is just vent hostility and I have yet to find a single
> >credible person who can vouch for what ever he has.
> 
> He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase 
> water heater!
>       REPLY  that idea is moronic   and some math theory only thinking 
> clown came up with it  He would not the difference between single or a 3 
> phase motor    but if it makes you happy go for it  but we do not demo that 
> we demo as it operates in the real world  
> >
> >He usually quotes crackpots who are even unwilling to support Jack.
> >I feel all my time trying to nicely tell Jack how to convince people has
> >been wasted.
>   REPLY  the Business deal say different moron eric and that is all that 
> matterrs 
> He does quote crackpots, judging from his writing, I've decided that 
> he is one. I don't understand why he can't get a patent on the 
> device. 
  REPLY I have explained but it is appearently to far over your head 
We have established that he didn't invent it, but the person > 
> who did, or his estate, should be able to get one. Were I in his 
> position, I would attempt to make an improvement on it and then 
> patent it. It amazes me that someone who capable of running a 
> business, would be such a door knob on intellectual property 
> protection.
>   REPLY   ALL I have seen is you as the Doorknob  I told you it was 
> obsolete but you are like kreig you do not listen  CALL our patent lawyer 
> HE said he would not Patent either  But I guess Tom knows it all as Kreig 
> does  
> It really tickles me that he finds me boring, I have this to say 
> about that, Jack, you have a telephone, go call someone who cares!
>   REPLY   I cannot learn from you if so your wasteing  my time  First you 
> Get CD disk   Then you view Then open Mouth    Your like Kreig  backwards  
> WHICH is you run your Mouth firat  YOUR types always do  WHICH is what 
> FOOLS DO 
> >
> >you may quote me on this.
> 
> I will.
> 
> >
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 12:43:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Eric Krieg sent me the followin=
g:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;I have Jack to be unwilling to negotiate proper instrumentation that<BR>
&gt;would be able to get to the bottom of his important claims.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I even went so far as to=
&nbsp; offer to to pick one his clones that had all ready saw a public demo=20=
to see if they would accept&nbsp; ALL they do is play E mail games.&nbsp; In=
finite Energy&nbsp; did not say anything about some moronic water heater ide=
a.&nbsp; THey conducted&nbsp; testing the real world way with meters. DID yo=
u GET THE TAPE from Warren. ?? So you may have at least one clue what this i=
s all about before running you mouth. ;</B> <BR>
Jack offered to let me test his device with a water heater. If F <BR>
would drive me out to Flint, I'd go in a heart beat! I'd like to lay <BR>
this matter to rest, and I want to see these brick and motor <BR>
businesses that Jack has built. I just can't afford to waste time <BR>
were I can't see any profit.<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY BY viewing the RUSSIAN web site and looking at www.faraday.r=
u&nbsp; Mar/Apr&nbsp; 2002 issue I'M standing in front of one my businesses=20=
</B><BR>
 &gt;<BR>
&gt;I think all he does is just vent hostility and I have yet to find a sing=
le<BR>
&gt;credible person who can vouch for what ever he has.<BR>
<BR>
He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase <BR>
water heater!<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; that idea is moronic&nbsp;&nbs=
p; and some math theory only thinking clown came up with it&nbsp; He would n=
ot the difference between single or a 3 phase motor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but if=
 it makes you happy go for it&nbsp; but we do not demo that we demo as it op=
erates in the real world&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;</B><BR>
&gt;He usually quotes crackpots who are even unwilling to support Jack.<BR>
&gt;I feel all my time trying to nicely tell Jack how to convince people has=
<BR>
&gt;been wasted.<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; the Business deal say different moron eric and that is=
 all that matterrs </B><BR>
He does quote crackpots, judging from his writing, I've decided that <BR>
he is one. I don't understand why he can't get a patent on the <BR>
device. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY I have explained but it is appearently to far over your head=
 </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">We have established that he=20=
didn't invent it, but the person <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEF=
T: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px=
"><BR>
who did, or his estate, should be able to get one. Were I in his <BR>
position, I would attempt to make an improvement on it and then <BR>
patent it. It amazes me that someone who capable of running a <BR>
business, would be such a door knob on intellectual property <BR>
protection.<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; ALL I have seen is you as the Doorknob&nbsp; I t=
old you it was obsolete but you are like kreig you do not liste</B>n<B>&nbsp=
; CALL our patent lawyer HE said he would not Patent either&nbsp; But I gues=
s Tom knows it all as Kreig does&nbsp; </B><BR>
It really tickles me that he finds me boring, I have this to say <BR>
about that, Jack, you have a telephone, go call someone who cares!<BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I cannot learn from you if so your wasteing&nbsp=
; my time&nbsp; First you Get CD disk&nbsp;&nbsp; Then you view Then open Mo=
uth&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Your like Kreig&nbsp; backwards&nbsp; WHICH is you run=
 your Mouth firat&nbsp; YOUR types always do&nbsp; WHICH is what FOOLS DO <B=
R>
&gt;</B><BR>
&gt;you may quote me on this.<BR>
<BR>
I will.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:39:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's comeupance
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Eric Krieg sent me the following:

>I have Jack to be unwilling to negotiate proper instrumentation that
>would be able to get to the bottom of his important claims.

Jack offered to let me test his device with a water heater. If F 
would drive me out to Flint, I'd go in a heart beat! I'd like to lay 
this matter to rest, and I want to see these brick and motor 
businesses that Jack has built. I just can't afford to waste time 
were I can't see any profit.

>
>I think all he does is just vent hostility and I have yet to find a single
>credible person who can vouch for what ever he has.

He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase 
water heater!

>
>He usually quotes crackpots who are even unwilling to support Jack.
>I feel all my time trying to nicely tell Jack how to convince people has
>been wasted.

He does quote crackpots, judging from his writing, I've decided that 
he is one. I don't understand why he can't get a patent on the 
device. We have established that he didn't invent it, but the person 
who did, or his estate, should be able to get one. Were I in his 
position, I would attempt to make an improvement on it and then 
patent it. It amazes me that someone who capable of running a 
business, would be such a door knob on intellectual property 
protection.

It really tickles me that he finds me boring, I have this to say 
about that, Jack, you have a telephone, go call someone who cares!

>
>you may quote me on this.

I will.

>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 11:19:00 2003
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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 13:51:55 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC More mischief from Taubes
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Gary Taubes, one of the archenemies of CF, has been given a $700,000 
advance on a book that many researchers consider a scientific atrocity. See:

http://www.reason.com/0303/fe.mf.big.shtml

- Jed


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <19c.11a286c9.2b98ff5e aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 14:45:34 EST
Subject: Did Tom say he would sreal a dead mans invention?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/6/03 12:43:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> He does quote crackpots, judging from his writing, I've decided that 
> he is one. I don't understand why he can't get a patent on the 
> device. We have established that he didn't invent it, but the person 
> who did, or his estate, should be able to get one. 

Were I in his > 
> position, I would attempt to make an improvement on it and then 
> patent it.

    REPLY  Did TOM just said he would sreal a dead mans invention ?  Looks 
that way 
>   Tom also does not understand  patents are worthless but he knows it all 
>   It amazes me that someone who capable of running a     > 
> business, would be such a door knob on intellectual property 
> protection.
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 12:43:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">He does quote crackpots, judgin=
g from his writing, I've decided that <BR>
he is one. I don't understand why he can't get a patent on the <BR>
device. We have established that he didn't invent it, but the person <BR>
who did, or his estate, should be able to get one. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FAC=
E=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Were I in his <BLOCKQUOTE TY=
PE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-=
RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
position, I would attempt to make an improvement on it and then <BR>
patent it.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&=
nbsp; Did TOM just said he would sreal a dead mans invention ?&nbsp; Looks t=
hat way </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>&nbsp; Tom also does not understand&nbsp; patents are wo=
rthless but he knows it all <BR>
</B>&nbsp; It amazes me that someone who capable of running a&nbsp;</FONT><F=
ONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </F=
ONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FA=
MILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
business, would be such a door knob on intellectual property <BR>
protection.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 11:52:14 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:47:16 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's comeupance
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At 11:39 AM 3/6/3, thomas malloy wrote:

>
>He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase
>water heater!


You don't actually have to go to that much expense, espacially if you have
nice picknick cooler handy.  Simply buy three single phase elements of the
appropriate wattage and voltage and immerse them in a large cooler filled
with cold water.  Apply three phase current (resistance between each pair
of leads) until water temp is about 80 C.  Don't touch water when power on
of course!  Measure volume of water and change in temperature vs time as
water heats.  After power turned off, measure decay of temperature by
measureing temperature of water every 10 minutes or so for an hour.  Post
data here.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <148.c414b9b.2b991323 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:09:55 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's comeupance
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In a message dated 3/6/03 2:52:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> At 11:39 AM 3/6/3, thomas malloy wrote:
> >
> >He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase
> >water heater!

>    REPLY   HELLO Doesn't anyone understand the word simple?   What does a 
> phase converter do ? It converts single phase to 3 phase Correct? What is 
> it used for?  To operate 3 phase machines Correct?   What would simple 
> common sense tell you as far as testing?  

   Would it tell you to possibly test the unit operating 3 phase motors?  NO 
NO God forbid that would be to simple > and make to much common sense. 
> Wouldn't??  WE cannot have that happening. What would science do if the 
> process was not a complicated cluster you know what. Horace In your 
> statements below you sound like Eric Kreig ???   

   NOW I see why science  is  screwed up and never accomplishes anything. I 
can tell you right now Tom would stick > his finger in the water then wonder 
> if could patent it   I have never in my life seen moronic thinking at this 
> level. You call yourself EDU. Horace?  How about your spelling below???? 
> ERIC appears to be a tad smarter.   How do you make it to the bathroom when 
> you get out of bed.? I know you bed is in the bathroom. Otherwise with  
> that  cluster you know what type of thinking you would never make it. It 
> appears  
> 
> You don't actually have to go to that much expense, espacially if you have  
>  ""  Correct Spelling Is Especially  
> nice picknick cooler handy.  Simply buy three single phase elements of the  
> ""picnic is corrrect
> appropriate wattage and voltage and immerse them in a large cooler filled
> with cold water.  Apply three phase current (resistance between each pair
> of leads) until water temp is about 80 C.  Don't touch water when power on
> of course!  Measure volume of water and change in temperature vs time as
> water heats.  After power turned off, measure decay of temperature by
> measureing temperature of water every 10 minutes or so for an hour.  Post   
> "" measuring horace 
> data here.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 2:52:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 11:39 AM 3/6/3, thomas mallo=
y wrote:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;He does vent. If you want to settle this matter, get a three phase<BR>
&gt;water heater!</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOT=
E><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; HELLO Doesn't anyone unde=
rstand the word simple?&nbsp;&nbsp; What does a phase converter do ? It conv=
erts single phase to 3 phase Correct? What is it used for?&nbsp; To operate=20=
3 phase machines Correct?&nbsp;&nbsp; What would simple common sense tell yo=
u as far as testing?&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; Would it tell y=
ou to possibly test the unit operating 3 phase motors?&nbsp; NO NO God forbi=
d that would be to simple <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000=
0ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">and m=
ake to much common sense. Wouldn't??&nbsp; WE cannot have that happening. Wh=
at would science do if the process was not a complicated cluster you know wh=
at. Horace In your statements below you sound like Eric Kreig ???&nbsp;&nbsp=
; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW I see why s=
cience&nbsp; is&nbsp; screwed up and never accomplishes anything. I can tell=
 you right now Tom would stick <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">=
his finger in the water then wonder if could patent it&nbsp;&nbsp; I have ne=
ver in my life seen moronic thinking at this level. You call yourself EDU. H=
orace?&nbsp; How about your spelling below???? ERIC appears to be a tad smar=
ter.&nbsp;&nbsp; How do you make it to the bathroom when you get out of bed.=
? I know you bed is in the bathroom. Otherwise with&nbsp; that&nbsp; cluster=
 you know what type of thinking you would never make it. It appears&nbsp; <B=
R>
</B><BR>
You don't actually have to go to that much expense, espacially if you have&n=
bsp;&nbsp; ""&nbsp;<B> Correct Spelling Is Especially&nbsp; </B><BR>
nice picknick cooler handy.&nbsp; Simply buy three single phase elements of=20=
the&nbsp; ""<B>picnic is corrrect</B><BR>
appropriate wattage and voltage and immerse them in a large cooler filled<BR=
>
with cold water.&nbsp; Apply three phase current (resistance between each pa=
ir<BR>
of leads) until water temp is about 80 C.&nbsp; Don't touch water when power=
 on<BR>
of course!&nbsp; Measure volume of water and change in temperature vs time a=
s<BR>
water heats.&nbsp; After power turned off, measure decay of temperature by<B=
R>
measureing temperature of water every 10 minutes or so for an hour.&nbsp; Po=
st&nbsp;&nbsp; "" <B>measuring horace </B><BR>
data here.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <9b.3526a1b4.2b991c25 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:48:21 EST
Subject:  7 warning signs Bogus Science
To: eric voicenet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, opa@aps.org, Puthoff@aol.com
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In a message dated 3/6/03 2:46:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com 
writes:


> POINT OF VIEW
> 
> The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science
> By ROBERT L. PARK
> 
> The National Aeronautics and Space Administration is investing close 
> to a million dollars in an obscure Russian scientist's antigravity 
> machine, although it has failed every test and would violate the most 
> fundamental laws of nature. 
   Reply   To accomplish Anti Gravity you have to use the earth's Natural 
Magetic Fields that are caused by an inter action of Neutrinos with the iron 
deposits on the planet. Stars Emit them Whereas gravity is caused by Tacyons. 
also emited by stars.  

  But you cannot use them to create Anti Gravity. It is not a conversion 
process  it is a possible natural process. IF It was a conversion process it 
would harm us but since it is not it will not   That is the concept But 
naturally  your not going to believe it.     What else is new?  NOW make youse
lf  figure out the HOW aspect. OR better yet Tell the Concept to a sharp  6 
year old that is scientific inclined . I will explain the concept to him or 
her  if necessary    

The Patent and Trademark Office recently > 
> issued Patent 6,362,718 for a physically impossible motionless 
> electromagnetic generator, which is supposed to snatch free energy 
> from a vacuum. And major power companies have sunk tens of 
> millions of dollars into a scheme to produce energy by putting 
> hydrogen atoms into a state below their ground state, a feat 
> equivalent to mounting an expedition to explore the region south of 
> the South Pole.
> 
> There is, alas, no scientific claim so preposterous that a scientist 
> cannot be found to vouch for it. And many such claims end up in a 
> court of law after they have cost some gullible person or corporation a 
> lot of money. How are juries to evaluate them?
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 2:46:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">POINT OF VIEW<BR>
<BR>
The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science<BR>
By ROBERT L. PARK<BR>
<BR>
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration is investing close <BR>
to a million dollars in an obscure Russian scientist's antigravity <BR>
machine, although it has failed every test and would violate the most <BR>
fundamental laws of nature. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; To accomplish Anti Gravity you have to use=
 the earth's Natural Magetic Fields that are caused by an inter action of Ne=
utrinos with the iron deposits on the planet. Stars Emit them Whereas gravit=
y is caused by Tacyons. also emited by stars.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; But you cannot use them to create Anti Gravity. It is not a conversio=
n process&nbsp; it is a possible natural process. IF It was a conversion pro=
cess it would harm us but since it is not it will not&nbsp;&nbsp; That is th=
e concept But naturally&nbsp; your not going to believe it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; What else is new?&nbsp; NOW make youself&nbsp; figure out the HOW as=
pect. OR better yet Tell the Concept to a sharp&nbsp; 6 year old that is sci=
entific inclined . I will explain the concept to him or her&nbsp; if necessa=
ry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
The Patent and Trademark Office recently <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BO=
RDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-L=
EFT: 5px"><BR>
issued Patent 6,362,718 for a physically impossible motionless <BR>
electromagnetic generator, which is supposed to snatch free energy <BR>
from a vacuum. And major power companies have sunk tens of <BR>
millions of dollars into a scheme to produce energy by putting <BR>
hydrogen atoms into a state below their ground state, a feat <BR>
equivalent to mounting an expedition to explore the region south of <BR>
the South Pole.<BR>
<BR>
There is, alas, no scientific claim so preposterous that a scientist <BR>
cannot be found to vouch for it. And many such claims end up in a <BR>
court of law after they have cost some gullible person or corporation a <BR>
lot of money. How are juries to evaluate them?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 14:31:41 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d0.47b5ad8.2b992543 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:27:15 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] 7 warning signs Bogus Science
To: eric voicenet.com, opa@aps.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/6/03 2:46:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com 
writes:


> 6. The discoverer has worked in isolation. The image of a lone genius 
> who struggles in secrecy in an attic laboratory and ends up making a 
> revolutionary breakthrough is a staple of Hollywood's science-fiction 
> films, but it is hard to find examples in real life. Scientific 
> breakthroughs nowadays are almost always syntheses of the work of 
> many scientists.
>                           REPLY   THEY may make breakthroughs but they do 
> not invent to any extent. Which is the other side of the coin. They never 
> have that has always been done by Misfits that operate outside of the BOX. 
> That is Where main stream makes their glaring mistake.

  And that is they are to good to work with the misfit. Because they would 
have to admit they did not know it all.  In this > case the misfits do not 
> intend to give main stream the time of day. Because you cannot learn from 
> them to any extent is why. The Prime mistake that inventors make is having 
> a desire to be recognized by main stream     

  The prime key to speed up  the  evolving process is working together. But 
evolution will have to occur either way. And at > this point the chances of 
> them working together are slim and none. Unless the EDU. system was totally 
> changed and creative thinking and free though were taught. Then they would 
> gravitate towards each other.       
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 2:46:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">6. The discoverer has worked in=
 isolation. The image of a lone genius <BR>
who struggles in secrecy in an attic laboratory and ends up making a <BR>
revolutionary breakthrough is a staple of Hollywood's science-fiction <BR>
films, but it is hard to find examples in real life. Scientific <BR>
breakthroughs nowadays are almost always syntheses of the work of <BR>
many scientists.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B=
> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; THEY may make breakthroughs but they do not invent to an=
y extent. Which is the other side of the coin. They never have that has alwa=
ys been done by Misfits that operate outside of the BOX. That is Where main=20=
stream makes their glaring mistake.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"=
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; And that is they are=20=
to good to work with the misfit. Because they would have to admit they did n=
ot know it all.&nbsp; In this <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=20=
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">c=
ase the misfits do not intend to give main stream the time of day. Because y=
ou cannot learn from them to any extent is why. The Prime mistake that inven=
tors make is having a desire to be recognized by main stream&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=
 SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; The prime key to spee=
d up&nbsp; the&nbsp; evolving process is working together. But evolution wil=
l have to occur either way. And at <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-L=
EFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px">this point the chances of them working together are slim and none. Unles=
s the EDU. system was totally changed and creative thinking and free though=20=
were taught. Then they would gravitate towards each other.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 14:40:53 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Japanese nuclear accident in the news again.
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:55:03 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEDCDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Hi All.

I recently mentioned the case of the accident at the
Tokaimura nuclear facility, where 2 workers were
processing uranium in a 5 gallon pail and blew
themselves up. And wouldn't you know, the case
popped up again in the news. Seems that the
mighty fist of the legal system has smashed down
on the safety inspectors heads.

Accident :
2 dead
440 exposed to leaked uranium

Cost:
~$9000 US fine.
~$140,000 US slush fund for compensation

The industry provides 1/3 of Japans electricity,
I'll leave it to you to determine the cost/benefit
ratio.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,7369,906955,00.html

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 15:12:54 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Japanese nuclear accident in the news again.
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>popped up again in the news. Seems that the
>mighty fist of the legal system has smashed down
>on the safety inspectors heads.
>
>. . .

>Cost:
>~$9000 US fine.
>~$140,000 US slush fund for compensation

It is disgraceful. However, you should note they took away the plant's 
license to operate just after the accident, and there are no plans to 
restore it. Effectively, they put the plant of business, which is a pretty 
severe penalty. I can't imagine they would do any less.

Another court recently revoked the operating license for the Monju breeder 
reactor. The Japanese newspapers and TV news reporters seem to consider 
this means the inevitable end of the plant. See:

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/archive/200301/29/20030129p2a00m0oa019000c.html

A local political movement started by a concerned housewife in 2001 brought 
about an abrupt and shocking halt to a project to run MOX (mixed Pu + U) 
fuel. See:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0528-01.htm

The nuclear industry in Japan is on the skids, just as it is in Europe and 
the U.S.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 20:03:28 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:01:28 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's comeupance
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            TOM   You spoke to the Tech. then all  I see from you are 
assumptions and conclusions. About a situation you know basically nothing 
about it appears. WERE not going to manuf.  Phase Conversion,  Because that 
tech is nothing but a can of worms. But can demo to prove we can produce 
evolutionary new major impact situations.  Until our far more advanced 
inventions are ready.  

 I/we do not need to deal with the totally combative scientific Comm.  
Because they cannot explain the Tech. dynamics which is their problem not 
mine and the adversarial Power Co. Because the unit connects to there power  
If we built Phase con. There would be self destroying anti reversing Eng. 
aspects Built in Plus no current conversion process understanding basically 
exist. 

 Plus we could come out with advanced versions so a patent rendering full 
disclosure would not be a wise Business move considering those factors. If 
you would have investigated instead of coming to conclusions prior to as 
business people generally do which you apparently are not you would have 
avoided my razor edge reply's.

I do not have time tolerate judgmental driven by apparent ignorance of new 
situations response's. I have no problem with investigative inquiries because 
that is my job to field concept questions only. But more often than not they 
become combative especially if their single minded scientific inclined types 
because they cannot grasp the responses. Then I'm accused of being abusive if 
I use razor edge reply's in responding to there combative responses.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 20:25:39 2003
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 <008c01c2e44e$62ebd580$90e8add1 oemcomputer>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:24:25 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's energy amplifier
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>Dear Tom,
>He did stopped by, but he sure didn't reveal much if anything.
>On the disk he had some electric motors etc. being run by a box,
>no real input/ouput measurements although talking to Eugene Mallove
>he thought they may have something. The only way to know is to go out there
>with meters and a dyno and measure. If u want to see the CD sometime
>I still have it, but it's really not to exciting. www.genesisworldenergy.com
>sounds interesting.
>kind reagrds
>Warren
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>To: <warren mninter.NET>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:36 AM
>Subject: Jack Carey's energy amplifier
>
>
>>  Dear Warren;
>>
>>  I'm going to send this to Tom McCoy too.
>>
>>  It has come to my attention that this man has a device which takes in
>>  9 A of 125V electricity and outputs 40 A of 240 V 3 phase
>>  electricity. He says that he demonstrated this device last year to
>>  Thermo King. He says that he gave a C D of this to Warren Opheim. I'm
>>  disappointed that you failed to inform us of this matter.
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 20:40:19 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:37:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: A Minor Quibble from a Long-Time Lurker
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>George Wagner posted;



>     If I come up with what I believe to be an over-
>unity device, and someone with vastly greater
>technical knowledge than I possess is able to
>"explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian
>physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?
>
If you were to build a F E machine, and prove that it works. By that 
I mean measure the input and measure the output with a suitable 
method, We'd love to discuss it.

Measurement is tricky. The best methods are the simplest. If you've 
been following the threads, you will have noticed that I suggested to 
Jack Carey that in his particular situation, a water heater is the 
best method. It is a simple, no B S method for measuring the energy 
content of the electricity that his machine produces. I just may be 
able to make it out to Flint.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 20:58:04 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 22:56:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The SonoFusor
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Excellent post Jones:

So if you can get 10^12 neutrons you are producing energy. This 
reminds of the machine that Chris Arnold built. It was based on the 
Farnsworth Fusor too. It was producing 10^5 neutrons, so I guess that 
it is a candidate for E Bay, which is what various Vortexians told 
him. He is suffering from classic invertoritus, and was asking 
$200,000 per year to license it. I guess it depends on whether or not 
he can scale it up.

BTW, what is -1 atmosphere?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 21:29:26 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:27:01 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: IN the box Scientific Types  total ignorance
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I can't help it, this discussion made me laugh so hard that I got a 
cramp in my side.

Horace Heffner and Jack Carey were going at it.

>  >    If you cause>
>>>  significant spikes or phase shifts you will likely be discovered and be
>  >> forced to remedy the situation or be disconnected.  There are rigorous


>PROBLEM IT IS THEIR
>  >problem

You'll find out that it is your problem Jack, unless you want to 
generate your own electricity.

>
>
>I suggest, if your device extracts energy from the utility without
>registering on the meter that you become familiar with fraud laws in any

I was planning on using our clamp on ampmeter, Horace, do you have 
any suggestions on how am I going to measure this? That is without 
sophisticated instruments?

>
>>  ARE you
>>hitting a Crack pipe or something. If it is jerk off I have a group of
>>Billionaires that we are in the process of dealing with that will get that
>>law changed

This really cracked me up. Don't hold your breath waiting for the law 
to change Jack! If you've got billionaires contacting you, why are 
you bothering with us poor simpletons?

>
>
>Now we see the true colors of what kind of business man you actually are.
>
>
>>
>>  Regardless of that  Stop and think for once. Or am I asking to much from
>>you. ?? Because you did not stop and think before you wrote this moronic mail
>>  BOTTOM LINE     Do you think the pubic is going to say we cannot buy them
>
>
>Yep, I say it is not liklely you can buy the public.  They are too smart.

It depends on whether or not the machine works.

>
>>
>  >MORON IF YOU do not want to not use that aspect all ready contained in the
>   because your EDu.
>  >said you did and now you may SQUAT
>
>We are not discussing physics. We are discussing business practice.
>
>
>If I were an investor, I would want to check with Underwriters Labs to make
>sure this is correct.  Typically any modification of certified hardware

I agree.




>Any material sent to my email addrss is treated as public domain, and can
>even be expected to be published.  Only by prior agreement will any
>information sent to my account be kept confidential.  I post this fact from
>time to time here.

Sounds like you've had about as much Jack Carey as you can stand too Horace

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  6 21:52:15 2003
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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:51:40 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC More mischief from Taubes
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Jed Rothwell Posted:

>Gary Taubes, one of the archenemies of CF, has been given a $700,000 
>advance on a book that many researchers consider a scientific 
>atrocity. See:

makes you wonder if someone has an agenda doesn't it? Do you think 
that they will get their money back?

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Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 23:54:58 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Jack Carey's comeupance
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>>ould be such a door knob on intellectual property
>>protection.
>>   REPLY   ALL I have seen is you as the Doorknob  I told you it was 
>>obsolete but you are like kreig you do not listen  CALL our patent 
>>lawyer HE said he would not Patent either  But I guess

What is your patent attorney's telephone number?
--============_-1165105977==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Fwd: Jack Carey's
comeupance</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">ould be such a door knob on intellectual
property</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">protection.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">&nbsp;<b> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; ALL I have seen is you as
the Doorknob&nbsp; I told you it was obsolete but you are like kreig
you do not liste</b>n<b>&nbsp; CALL our patent lawyer HE said he would
not Patent either&nbsp; But I guess</b></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>What is your patent attorney's telephone number?</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1165105977==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 06:36:24 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:30:27 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey's energy       amplifier
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: warren mninter.net, eric@voicenet.com, editor@infinite-energy.com
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In a message dated 3/6/03 11:25:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Dear Tom,
> >He did stopped by, but he sure didn't reveal much if anything.
> >On the disk he had some electric motors etc. being run by a box,
> >no real input/ouput measurements although talking to Eugene Mallove
> >he thought they may have something. The only way to know is to go out 
> there
> >with meters and a dyno and measure. If u want to see the CD sometime
> >I still have it, but it's really not to exciting. 
> www.genesisworldenergy.com
> >sounds interesting.
> >kind reagrds
> >Warren
   REPLY  Warren Is a ENG and a nice guy  BUT apparently cannot explain OR 
GRASP any of it. He is supposed to be able to. because that what he gets paid 
for and he knows it.    If he cannot that effects his creditability     PLus  
 I'm not THAT stupid to reveal anything PLease   

 THE box protrayed on the CD  which is how he saw it Demonstrated  was a 3Hp 
220 to 3 Phase pre production Unit and is causing 10Hp of 3 Phase motors to 
operate  using very thin wire   A combination that equaled 5 HP was started 
first then using the flow one motor that 5 HP by itself was started   The 
unit is not OU  It causes an EFF. Situation  only.by utilizing the imput in a 
more effective manor. 

 99% CANNOT begin to imagine what that could mean on a world wide in scope 
level as far as causing drastic reductions in power usage on this planet. 
Because those motors could be a generator that in turn operates your house. 
Which is the reason Dennis Lee was here in one day and stayed 3 Plus flew our 
group out for a week.  

 Genesis will never make it anywhere Plus think about what if there was an 
earth quake or just a major storm and systems became ruptured HELLO  Hydrogen 
Explosion  Time. Knock knock is anybody there NO they were  blown away by the 
hydrogen explosion  WAKE UP  PLEASE PEOPLE 

 I did not claim to demo the device itself. Your making an assumption TOM as 
usual. I was on a 3 week west coast trip.  In a Mustang CORBA  and he was my 
second stop after stopping in Chicago at a venture capital situation. At the 
UBS Warburg Building where I saw Price Waterhouse Coopers Presentation. That 
is league I play in TOM . AND is why you bore me.     

THAT MEANS YOU DEALING With an entire new understanding of Electricity and 
your math does not to apply anymore. So do not attempt to use it to explain 
the new process because that math will not help you  PERIOD  WE have all new 
physics to replace it. THe equation is ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN 
EMF"""" 

 And the separate more advanced 110 to 3 phase demo is on the disk also 
operating all the equipment  Pub. in Electrifying times.   Understand that is 
totally impossible according to taught theory. Wayne did not apply load to 
those motors in the demo that shows the pre production unit ,  which would 
have been more striking. If he would have you would have saw they would not 
stall. If you know anything about 3 phase motors they will stall under heavy 
load. 

I see he called Gene  Mallove. Gene could not play a control game with us.    
Tom,  SEE   Warren  knows how to test and he is not talking about some 
ignorant water heater idea.  THat some clueless of the operational side Ph.D 
come up with that you think is now one of ignorant Laws SCI. types spout all 
the time.      Dennis Lee brought a dyno but it did not arrive with him but 
did show up just before he left when the airport delivered it to my house but 
was never used.

 If I'm ever offered a Ph.D by some college I will flat ass turn it down. The 
same way Wayne did when he was dealing DOW Corning and MIT offered him one. 
But it came with Strings. He would have had to say he did his research at MIT 
  HE told them to stick where the sun does not shine 

 PLUS YOUR are appearently NOT grasping this concept TOM that I can see.  IT 
does not create an output as you understand. The unit is not producing 40 
Amps. from 9 amps. The unit is basically making the equipment only think that 
40 amps is being provided and using 9 Amps to accomplish that goal with. 

If the equipmet is happy with what is being fed to it  that is all that 
matters.  AS I SAID  and I have to KEEP stressing this POINT because of your 
stone wall theory only  thinking Pre conceptions  THE absolete FACT IS   your 
dealing with an entire new different opposite from what you know 
understanding of A/C current PERIOD. 

 Evolve or stay in your box that now possibly totally obsolete  theory has 
created for you    I care less what you do. That level of futuristic 
evolutionary knowledge is what we will use to totally demolish and create the 
demise of main stream science. Because the survivability our civilization is 
on the line so that will have to occur. No, I'm not on some mission from GOD  
as Joe Newman thinks he is.  PLEASE  

THEN maybe we will be able to possibly evolve. When we create an invention 
based one.   THEN   NICOLA TESLA   who provided the bases for all this  will 
finally beat them at their own Game.  I love blowing the lids off of peoples 
BOXES.  PLUS  Crushing GIANT arrogant counter productive  know it all  ego's  
is my favorite past time         


> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> >To: <warren mninter.NET>
> >Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:36 AM
> >Subject: Jack Carey's energy amplifier
> >
> >
> >>  Dear Warren;
> >>
> >>  I'm going to send this to Tom McCoy too.
> >>
> >>  It has come to my attention that this man has a device which takes in
> >>  9 A of 125V electricity and outputs 40 A of 240 V 3 phase
> >>  electricity. He says that he demonstrated this device last year to
> >>  Thermo King. He says that he gave a C D of this to Warren Opheim. I'm
> >>  disappointed that you failed to inform us of this matter.
> >>
> 
> 


--part1_68.2dfb48f1.2b9a0703_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 11:25:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear Tom,<BR>
&gt;He did stopped by, but he sure didn't reveal much if anything.<BR>
&gt;On the disk he had some electric motors etc. being run by a box,<BR>
&gt;no real input/ouput measurements although talking to Eugene Mallove<BR>
&gt;he thought they may have something. The only way to know is to go out th=
ere<BR>
&gt;with meters and a dyno and measure. If u want to see the CD sometime<BR>
&gt;I still have it, but it's really not to exciting. www.genesisworldenergy=
.com<BR>
&gt;sounds interesting.<BR>
&gt;kind reagrds<BR>
&gt;Warren</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; Warren Is a ENG and a nice guy&nbsp; BUT apparen=
tly cannot explain OR GRASP any of it. He is supposed to be able to. because=
 that what he gets paid for and he knows it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If he cannot=20=
that effects his creditability&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLus&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm=20=
not THAT stupid to reveal anything PLease&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 THE box protrayed on the CD&nbsp; which is how he saw it Demonstrated&nbsp;=
 was a 3Hp 220 to 3 Phase pre production Unit and is causing 10Hp of 3 Phase=
 motors to operate&nbsp; using very thin wire&nbsp;&nbsp; A combination that=
 equaled 5 HP was started first then using the flow one motor that 5 HP by i=
tself was started&nbsp;&nbsp; The unit is not OU&nbsp; It causes an EFF. Sit=
uation&nbsp; only.by utilizing the imput in a more effective manor. <BR>
<BR>
 99% CANNOT begin to imagine what that could mean on a world wide in scope l=
evel as far as causing drastic reductions in power usage on this planet. Bec=
ause those motors could be a generator that in turn operates your house. Whi=
ch is the reason Dennis Lee was here in one day and stayed 3 Plus flew our g=
roup out for a week.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Genesis will never make it anywhere Plus think about what if there was an e=
arth quake or just a major storm and systems became ruptured HELLO&nbsp; Hyd=
rogen Explosion&nbsp; Time. Knock knock is anybody there NO they were&nbsp;=20=
blown away by the hydrogen explosion&nbsp; WAKE UP&nbsp; PLEASE PEOPLE <BR>
<BR>
 I did not claim to demo the device itself. Your making an assumption TOM as=
 usual. I was on a 3 week west coast trip.&nbsp; In a Mustang CORBA&nbsp; an=
d he was my second stop after stopping in Chicago at a venture capital situa=
tion. At the UBS Warburg Building where I saw Price Waterhouse Coopers Prese=
ntation. That is league I play in TOM . AND is why you bore me.&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
THAT MEANS YOU DEALING With an entire new understanding of Electricity and y=
our math does not to apply anymore. So do not attempt to use it to explain t=
he new process because that math will not help you&nbsp; PERIOD&nbsp; WE hav=
e all new physics to replace it. THe equation is ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CRE=
ATING AN EMF"""" <BR>
<BR>
 And the separate more advanced 110 to 3 phase demo is on the disk also oper=
ating all the equipment&nbsp; Pub. in Electrifying times.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unders=
tand that is totally impossible according to taught theory. Wayne did not ap=
ply load to those motors in the demo that shows the pre production unit ,&nb=
sp; which would have been more striking. If he would have you would have saw=
 they would not stall. If you know anything about 3 phase motors they will s=
tall under heavy load. <BR>
<BR>
I see he called Gene&nbsp; Mallove. Gene could not play a control game with=20=
us.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tom,&nbsp; SEE&nbsp;&nbsp; Warren&nbsp; knows how to t=
est and he is not talking about some ignorant water heater idea.&nbsp; THat=20=
some clueless of the operational side Ph.D come up with that you think is no=
w one of ignorant Laws SCI. types spout all the time.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; Dennis Lee brought a dyno but it did not arrive with him but did sho=
w up just before he left when the airport delivered it to my house but was n=
ever used.<BR>
<BR>
 If I'm ever offered a Ph.D by some college I will flat ass turn it down. Th=
e same way Wayne did when he was dealing DOW Corning and MIT offered him one=
. But it came with Strings. He would have had to say he did his research at=20=
MIT&nbsp;&nbsp; HE told them to stick where the sun does not shine <BR>
<BR>
 PLUS YOUR are appearently NOT grasping this concept TOM that I can see.&nbs=
p; IT does not create an output as you understand. The unit is not producing=
 40 Amps. from 9 amps. The unit is basically making the equipment only think=
 that 40 amps is being provided and using 9 Amps to accomplish that goal wit=
h. <BR>
<BR>
If the equipmet is happy with what is being fed to it&nbsp; that is all that=
 matters.&nbsp; AS I SAID&nbsp; and I have to KEEP stressing this POINT beca=
use of your stone wall theory only&nbsp; thinking Pre conceptions&nbsp; THE=20=
absolete FACT IS&nbsp;&nbsp; your dealing with an entire new different oppos=
ite from what you know understanding of A/C current PERIOD. <BR>
<BR>
 Evolve or stay in your box that now possibly totally obsolete&nbsp; theory=20=
has created for you&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I care less what you do. That level of=
 futuristic evolutionary knowledge is what we will use to totally demolish a=
nd create the demise of main stream science. Because the survivability our c=
ivilization is on the line so that will have to occur. No, I'm not on some m=
ission from GOD&nbsp; as Joe Newman thinks he is.&nbsp; PLEASE&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
THEN maybe we will be able to possibly evolve. When we create an invention b=
ased one.&nbsp;&nbsp; THEN&nbsp;&nbsp; NICOLA TESLA&nbsp;&nbsp; who provided=
 the bases for all this&nbsp; will finally beat them at their own Game.&nbsp=
; I love blowing the lids off of peoples BOXES.&nbsp; PLUS&nbsp; Crushing GI=
ANT arrogant counter productive&nbsp; know it all&nbsp; ego's&nbsp; is my fa=
vorite past time&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;----- Original Message ----=
-<BR>
&gt;From: "thomas malloy" &lt;temalloy metro.lakes.com&gt;<BR>
&gt;To: &lt;warren mninter.NET&gt;<BR>
&gt;Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:36 AM<BR>
&gt;Subject: Jack Carey's energy amplifier<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Dear Warren;<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; I'm going to send this to Tom McCoy too.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; It has come to my attention that this man has a device which=20=
takes in<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; 9 A of 125V electricity and outputs 40 A of 240 V 3 phase<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; electricity. He says that he demonstrated this device last ye=
ar to<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Thermo King. He says that he gave a C D of this to Warren Oph=
eim. I'm<BR>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; disappointed that you failed to inform us of this matter.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_68.2dfb48f1.2b9a0703_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 06:52:46 2003
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 09:46:53 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: JCF4 papers on line
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See:

http://www.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/nuc/03/nuc03web/JCF/file/jcf4_proceedings.pdf

I am glad to see someone else besides me is putting CF papers on line.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 07:53:41 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:51:26 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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The United States and Britain have endured the hardship of the containment
of Iraq for over 10 years on behalf of the United Nations, Iraq's
neighbors, and Iraq's own citizens.  US and British troops have been been
in a continual state of war for that period, being fired upon on a regular
basis by Iraq in breach of the truce with Iraq.  Due to their opposition to
ending the war with Iraq by use of increased force, and the long overdue
need for rotation of United Nations enforcement responsibilities, France,
Germany, Russia, and China now assume the duties of the containment of
Iraq.  Therefore, US and British troops will immediately leave the vicinity
of Iraq, leaving to France, Germany, Russia, and China, and any allies they
may acquire for the purpose, the responsibility for containment of Iraq and
its weapons of mass destruction, and the suppression of Iraq's support for
terrorists.  Due to their unwillingness to force a permanent end to the
Iraq war, the states newly responsible for the containment of Iraq now also
assume the responsibility for damages due to any use of Iraq's weapons of
mass destruction, any losses suffered by countries due an attack by Iraq or
terrorists supported by Iraq, and any consequential damages due to Iraq's
military actions, such as any increase in the price of oil or the cost of
support of any refugees resulting from the actions of Iraq.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Subject: Re: A Minor Quibble from a Long-Time Lurker
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In a message dated 3/6/03 11:40:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> >George Wagner posted;
> 
> 
> 
> >     If I come up with what I believe to be an over-
> >unity device, and someone with vastly greater
> >technical knowledge than I possess is able to
> >"explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian
> >physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?
> >
> If you were to build a F E machine, and prove that it works. By that 
> I mean measure the input and measure the output with a suitable 
> method, We'd love to discuss it.
>        REPLY LETS  discuss it 
> Measurement is tricky. 
REPLY NO it is not  this is very simple  your attempting to make it 
complacated  as your types always do.  The unit either fuctions or not there 
are are no in-betweens. If it is say a two HP conversion unit and it causes 6 
Hp of equipment to operate under load you have a new world PERIOD  IT does 
not relate to yours in any way. SO the sooner you stop attempting to do that 
the better off you will be  
The best methods are the simplest. 
        REPLY   AS Warren at the Thermo King  Corp. stated you use Meters and 
a dyno or just meters  
             not some goof ball water heater But conduct that ignorant test 
if you wish. In the the first  place you think you know what your talking 
about in regard to this  Because is an electrical situation  which it is but 
appearently one you do not have clue one how to begin to grasp. 

And your an electrical and should be able to.  BUt  I see no way you can 
compete at this level. Because you have shown  absolete zero ability so far 
that you can. You cannot grasp so you cop an attitude as 99% of your types do 
.   I have been dealing with this and your types for 3 years  I should know 
what I'm speaking about BY now 

  HELLO HELLO   Wouldn't       THink so. NO I know nothing  TOM KNOWS all.   
Would you give me a Break Please  ALL i see is total ignorance of new 
situations  and judgmental without investigation  conclusions that is totally 
typitical for your types.     BTDT I have the T shirt to prove it   NEXT know 
it all scientific type please  NOW you know why I only deal with visionary 
business types which Tom is  appearently not one of. PERIOD 
> 
> been following the threads, you will have noticed that I suggested to 
> Jack Carey that in his particular situation, a water heater is the 
> best method. It is a simple, no B S method for measuring the energy 
> content of the electricity that his machine produces. I just may be 
> able to make it out to Flint.
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/6/03=
 11:40:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;George Wagner posted;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If I come up with what I believe to be an over-=
<BR>
&gt;unity device, and someone with vastly greater<BR>
&gt;technical knowledge than I possess is able to<BR>
&gt;"explain it away" in terms of conventional Newtonian<BR>
&gt;physics, isn't that a legitimate contribution?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
If you were to build a F E machine, and prove that it works. By that <BR>
I mean measure the input and measure the output with a suitable <BR>
method, We'd love to discuss it.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY LETS&nbsp; discuss it </B><BR>
Measurement is tricky. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-C=
OLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLO=
CKQUOTE><BR>
<B>REPLY NO it is not&nbsp; this is very simple&nbsp; your attempting to mak=
e it complacated&nbsp; as your types always do.&nbsp; The unit either fuctio=
ns or not there are are no in-betweens. If it is say a two HP conversion uni=
t and it causes 6 Hp of equipment to operate under load you have a new world=
 PERIOD&nbsp; IT does not relate to yours in any way. SO the sooner you stop=
 attempting to do that the better off you will be&nbsp; </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The best methods are the sim=
plest. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; AS Warren at=
 the Thermo King&nbsp; Corp. stated you use Meters and a dyno or just meters=
&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; not=
 some goof ball water heater But conduct that ignorant test if you wish. In=20=
the the first&nbsp; place you think you know what your talking about in rega=
rd to this&nbsp; Because is an electrical situation&nbsp; which it is but ap=
pearently one you do not have clue one how to begin to grasp. <BR>
<BR>
And your an electrical and should be able to.&nbsp; BUt&nbsp; I see no way y=
ou can compete at this level. Because you have shown&nbsp; absolete zero abi=
lity so far that you can. You cannot grasp so you cop an attitude as 99% of=20=
your types do .&nbsp;&nbsp; I have been dealing with this and your types for=
 3 years&nbsp; I should know what I'm speaking about BY now <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; HELLO HELLO&nbsp;&nbsp; Wouldn't&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
THink so. NO I know nothing&nbsp; TOM KNOWS all.&nbsp;&nbsp; Would you give=20=
me a Break Please&nbsp; ALL i see is total ignorance of new situations&nbsp;=
 and judgmental without investigation&nbsp; conclusions that is totally typi=
tical for your types.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BTDT I have the T shirt to pro=
ve it&nbsp;&nbsp; NEXT know it all scientific type please&nbsp; NOW you know=
 why I only deal with visionary business types which Tom is&nbsp; appearentl=
y not one of. PERIOD </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COL=
OR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"></B><BR>
been following the threads, you will have noticed that I suggested to <BR>
Jack Carey that in his particular situation, a water heater is the <BR>
best method. It is a simple, no B S method for measuring the energy <BR>
content of the electricity that his machine produces. I just may be <BR>
able to make it out to Flint.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 07:58:35 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:56:24 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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The United States and Britain have endured the hardship of the containment
of Iraq for over 10 years on behalf of the United Nations, Iraq's
neighbors, and Iraq's own citizens.  US and British troops have been been
in a continual state of war for that period, being fired upon on a regular
basis by Iraq in breach of the truce with Iraq.  Due to their opposition to
ending the war with Iraq by use of increased force, and the long overdue
need for rotation of United Nations enforcement responsibilities, France,
Germany, Russia, and China now assume the duties of the containment of
Iraq.  Therefore, US and British troops will immediately leave the vicinity
of Iraq, leaving to France, Germany, Russia, and China, and any allies they
may acquire for the purpose, the responsibility for containment of Iraq and
its weapons of mass destruction, and the suppression of Iraq's support for
terrorists.  Due to their unwillingness to force a permanent end to the
Iraq war, the states newly responsible for the containment of Iraq now also
assume the responsibility for damages due to any use of Iraq's weapons of
mass destruction, any losses suffered by countries due to an attack by Iraq
or terrorists supported by Iraq, and any consequential damages due to
Iraq's military actions, such as any increase in the price of oil or the
cost of support of any refugees resulting from the actions of Iraq.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 07:58:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Stepin down for a breather
To: Beaty VortexList <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Hay folks...   Do to heavy traffic I will be steping down form Vortex for
a while.  

Hope I don't miss much.

Cheers

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 08:08:07 2003
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 11:03:39 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Some experts disagree about Iraq
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Occupying Baghdad would come at an "unpardonable expense in terms of money, 
lives lost and ruined regional relationships."

- Colin Powell in a Foreign Affairs essay in 1992


"We should not march into Baghdad. . . . To occupy Iraq would instantly 
shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us, and make a 
broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero . . . assigning young soldiers to 
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to 
fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only 
plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."

- George Bush Sr., "A World Transformed" (1998 book)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 08:38:24 2003
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 11:35:13 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Problems with Segway are a warning to o-u energy developers
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See:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.03/segway_pr.html

This is regrettable. The Segway is potentially great product. It may yet 
succeed, but the problems it is now experiencing should be a warning to 
people who are trying to introduce revolutionary technology. Even a working 
Mills device or CF generator would have some of the problems described in 
this article. The old adage "build a better mousetrap . . ." has never been 
true, in my opinion. It usually takes more than a great product to succeed 
in business.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 08:48:01 2003
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 11:43:22 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Biggest problems with Segway . . .
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This quote from the article is very telling:


With each invention, Kamen could have held on to the rights and 
manufactured and sold the device on his own. Instead he chose to partner 
with health-care behemoths like Baxter International, which produced his 
dialysis device. "You can have a great new machine, but unless you have the 
resources, the distribution, and the reach, you risk it becoming nothing 
but a science fair project," Kamen says. He sensibly decided to maximize 
his time at his workbench and leave the mundane operational details to his 
corporate partners.

Over time, Kamen realized that the Ibot's core technology could also power 
a superscooter that would enable bipeds to glide along at three or four 
times the speed of a brisk walker. Key to Segway's operation are five 
gyroscopes, linked by a set of computers, that monitor a rider's center of 
gravity more than 100 times a second. For the first time in his career, 
Kamen decided to go it alone. . . .


Big mistake! Paragraph one describes the only way an o-u energy initiative 
can succeed, in my opinion.

Of course Kamen is a genius and it is not fair for me to second guess him. 
Anyone would be find it a challenge to market the Segway. My point is that 
even geniuses with great products encounter severe difficulties, and I 
would expect the same to hold true for CF or some other o-u energy source.

- Jed 


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 12:12:30 EST
Subject: PLEASE someone see that Eric Kreig receives Medical  Attention 
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        TOM     I like playing with HORACE's and your in the box types. So I 
can keep my surgical knifes sharp that you and him keep forcing me to use on 
you. But it is never my intention to  You and him never have left me any 
other choice UL is no big deal but he is attempting to use that as a major 
point 

Because He is grasping at any straw he can to protect his little math theory 
based scientific world. That if this is real will disappear in front of him 
and go up in smoke in a New York minute  He is not a hands on electrician 
like you are  That theory world is all he has for a base of knowledge. I have 
been dealing with his types 3 years. He has never dealt with my type. that i 
know of 

 Which is non Scientific but presents evolutionary new scientific concepts. 
On top of that I will only discuss the imput and results because that is all 
you have to if can provide demos. Tech. operational dynamics are the bases 
for the CO. ONLY a fool would disclose them SCIENCE can go piss up a rope if 
they think which is what they do that I'm required to disclose those aspects. 
 WHO do they think they are anyway with their arrogant know it all attitudes. 
 All I see them as are roadblocks. They have no interest in seeing something 
possibly positive they did not create become anything of importance. Because 
the adverse effects it cause to happen to there creditability .   

That exchange told how me how much resistance there is out there from the ass 
backwards thinking present sci. comm. PLUS indicated to me which I all ready 
knew all the games they would attempt. To use to discredit the process 
because their creditability as experts is on the line here. PLUS Horaces  
totally moronic testing idea was more of a cluster you know what than yours 
was.    

Main stream science is  not visionary enough to look at possible positive 
aspects that a new evolutionary situation could possibly present,  because 
they can only think in barley 3 d. SO they have to attempt to at all cost 
protect their base of knowledge because that is all they have. They do not 
create situations to any extent. They just work for situations that do or are 
in the EDU system. The scientific inclined  ones like Horace it appears only 
have that one dimension  IF you take it away they have ZERO> 

I'm sorry if that happens to him but I have no choice because I have a 
responsibility to those who follow me. As those before me had a 
responsibility to me. Many of them sacrificed there lives in the only war 
ever fought against tyranny. So I could live in a free society So I have a 
responsibility to them also.

 I think ERIC Kreig needs to be looked at and may need strict medical 
supervision which most certainty includes the use of a Straight Jacket 
because he has suggest a web site that  he is willing to promote   titled  "" 
Jack Carey's  New Science ""   I told him he can put it up because his 
grammar is better than mine     

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>TOM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I like playing with HORACE'=
s and your in the box types. So I can keep my surgical knifes sharp that you=
 and him keep forcing me to use on you. But it is never my intention to&nbsp=
; You and him never have left me any other choice UL is no big deal but he i=
s attempting to use that as a major point <BR>
<BR>
Because He is grasping at any straw he can to protect his little math theory=
 based scientific world. That if this is real will disappear in front of him=
 and go up in smoke in a New York minute&nbsp; He is not a hands on electric=
ian like you are&nbsp; That theory world is all he has for a base of knowled=
ge. I have been dealing with his types 3 years. He has never dealt with my t=
ype. that i know of <BR>
<BR>
 Which is non Scientific but presents evolutionary new scientific concepts.=20=
On top of that I will only discuss the imput and results because that is all=
 you have to if can provide demos. Tech. operational dynamics are the bases=20=
for the CO. ONLY a fool would disclose them SCIENCE can go piss up a rope if=
 they think which is what they do that I'm required to disclose those aspect=
s.&nbsp; WHO do they think they are anyway with their arrogant know it all a=
ttitudes.&nbsp; All I see them as are roadblocks. They have no interest in s=
eeing something possibly positive they did not create become anything of imp=
ortance. Because the adverse effects it cause to happen to there creditabili=
ty .&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
That exchange told how me how much resistance there is out there from the as=
s backwards thinking present sci. comm. PLUS indicated to me which I all rea=
dy knew all the games they would attempt. To use to discredit the process be=
cause their creditability as experts is on the line here. PLUS Horaces&nbsp;=
 totally moronic testing idea was more of a cluster you know what than yours=
 was.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Main stream science is&nbsp; not visionary enough to look at possible positi=
ve aspects that a new evolutionary situation could possibly present,&nbsp; b=
ecause they can only think in barley 3 d. SO they have to attempt to at all=20=
cost protect their base of knowledge because that is all they have. They do=20=
not create situations to any extent. They just work for situations that do o=
r are in the EDU system. The scientific inclined&nbsp; ones like Horace it a=
ppears only have that one dimension&nbsp; IF you take it away they have ZERO=
&gt; <BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry if that happens to him but I have no choice because I have a respo=
nsibility to those who follow me. As those before me had a responsibility to=
 me. Many of them sacrificed there lives in the only war ever fought against=
 tyranny. So I could live in a free society So I have a responsibility to th=
em also.<BR>
<BR>
 I think ERIC Kreig needs to be looked at and may need strict medical superv=
ision which most certainty includes the use of a Straight Jacket because he=20=
has suggest a web site that&nbsp; he is willing to promote&nbsp;&nbsp; title=
d&nbsp; "" Jack Carey's&nbsp; New Science ""&nbsp;&nbsp; I told him he can p=
ut it up because his grammar is better than mine&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B=
></FONT></HTML>

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Subject: Record week for LENR-CANR.org
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In honor of today's cold fusion session at the APS, I decided to advertise 
recent uploads on LENR-CANR.org, hoping to push the grand totals over 
40,000. I posted messages on sci.physics and sci.physics.fusion on 
Wednesday. They seem to have had an effect. On Thursday and Friday (through 
11:30 a.m.) the total downloads were 1,364. Normally you see about 800 in 
this period. People downloaded ~700 copies of the papers I recommended, by 
Passell, Huggins, Schreiber, Claytor and Mallove.

This week's totals, so far, are 3,491. That is a new record. The previous 
record was the week of January 4, 2003, with 3,148 downloads. The grand 
totals starting October 7, 2002 are now 40,465. That is a gigantic number 
by the standards of cold fusion. It is a respectable number by the 
standards of academic science. I think that most printed technical journals 
circulate fewer papers than this per year. On the other hand, Scientific 
American claims it is the largest generalist science magazine, and it has 
"Total Average Paid Circulation: 681,122" See:

http://www.sciam.com/mediakit/print/images/sciam602.pdf

I suppose a web site devoted to Barbie dolls or "Gilligan's Island" sees 
40,000 downloads a week, but the audience for CF papers is limited, because 
the papers are dull and difficult to read. So it is encouraging to see so 
many have been downloaded. No doubt some readers merely glance at papers 
and forget about them, but on the other hand, other readers probably 
circulate copies on their own, boosting circulation I cannot account for.

I have seen no effect from this activity. Few people have written to the 
"Editors" at the site. But I feel it must be having an effect somewhere, 
like snow flakes gradually building up before an avalanche. Ed Storms says 
he sees more interest in the field, partly thanks to the web site. It is 
tedious work preparing and uploading papers, so I hope it will do some good.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 10:06:29 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:01:24 EST
Subject: TOTALLY NEW UNDERSTANDING 
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    Tom you use the words produce energy        YOU cannot   """PRODUCE   OR  
  CREATE  ENERGY"""   you can only convert or use energy in an unnatural or  
natural form.  Because it is absolute that power has to come from somewhere.  
If you can ever grasp that you will be able to evolve. Until then you will 
not be able to.  

CASE in point Steven Greers new toy is a conversion process. That is 
unnatural and not a wise process.   Of something 99% do not understand.  As 
the splitting of a molecule of water is not wise either.  In regard to a 
natural process  Case in point your body is using an externally supplied 
power source that is not ingested That in turn causes electrical impulses 
which is natural.

 FOR scientific evolution to occur in regard to our civilization. That simple 
thinking dynamic will have to the guideline they will use in order to do so. 
I'm sorry they have to here that from Me. I would not like it either if i was 
them       

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Tom=
 you use the words produce energy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
YOU cannot&nbsp;&nbsp; """PRODUCE&nbsp;&nbsp; OR&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CREATE&nb=
sp; ENERGY"""&nbsp;&nbsp; you can only convert or use energy in an unnatural=
 or&nbsp; natural form.&nbsp; Because it is absolute that power has to come=20=
from somewhere.&nbsp; If you can ever grasp that you will be able to evolve.=
 Until then you will not be able to.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
CASE in point Steven Greers new toy is a conversion process. That is unnatur=
al and not a wise process.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of something 99% do not understand.&n=
bsp; As the splitting of a molecule of water is not wise either.&nbsp; In re=
gard to a natural process&nbsp; Case in point your body is using an external=
ly supplied power source that is not ingested That in turn causes electrical=
 impulses which is natural.<BR>
<BR>
 FOR scientific evolution to occur in regard to our civilization. That simpl=
e thinking dynamic will have to the guideline they will use in order to do s=
o. I'm sorry they have to here that from Me. I would not like it either if i=
 was them&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 11:41:29 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 10:37:22 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: IN the box Scientific Types  total ignorance
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At 11:27 PM 3/6/3, thomas malloy wrote:

>I was planning on using our clamp on ampmeter, Horace, do you have
>any suggestions on how am I going to measure this? That is without
>sophisticated instruments?

Unfortunately, you will need a good power analyser, like a Clarck-Hess, or
a very good scope with power measurement capabilities.  If you can actually
get good access to something to test you might be able to get some help
along those lines from Earthtech.  Since Carey says he knows Puthoff and
vice versa, maybe not.

Something that might be useful is to provide your own kwh meter and then
measure kwh via Clark-Hess vs kwh on the meter. I have a meter and box I
can mail you if you can get the rest of the stuff you need, though I can't
vouch for the calibration on my kwh meter.  Earthtech has kwh meters too.
You might be lucky enough to get Scott Little along with some meters and PC
software etc.  He likes road trips I gather, but it may be hard to convince
Earthtech to spend anything on this.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 11:52:26 2003
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        He is the son of our local sheriff His name is Brian Pickell and he 
is with a firm in Troy Mi.  He is a mechanical  engineer and has viewed 
demos. I would have to find his card around here or call his father. WE only 
consulted with him. We did not contract with.  He said he saw no reason to 
patent Because who was going to figure because basically no one is wired to.  


  WE agreed Considering noble level minds are clueless.   To figure out 
something YOU  were taught by the EDU system that you needed the info they 
provided to make that possible. They fed you MIS leading info for a reason 
especially at the college level,  so you would not be able to figure out 
situations. But our youth is catching on to that Game.  Because they are 
exposed to so much more than anybody over 30 was 

The college level is where Big Corp's have the most influence whereas they do 
not at the grade school level. But do in regard to the books that are used at 
that level.  The key to figuring out situations is not listening to them.  
98% were suckered in and listened to them.

 And that is all I see 98% of the time on the net. Is people that fell for 
what they were fed hook line and sinker. They were programed for a reason and 
that was so they could be controlled. Plus they were programed to be very 
closed and narrow minded so they would not investigate. 

That is proven because 98% of you will not investigate because of the singled 
minded attitudes that were instilled into you at an early age.  NOW you know 
why the EDU> System hates me because I expose their. GAME. Tom I'm 57 and I 
went to the best most innovative edu. system in this country. This is were 
community EDU. was started and it worked. Where now it does not. 

 Plus I spent 3 years with a Tesla, Einstein and Henry Ford   type. I have a 
billion dollar non tech. EDU.  That money cannot buy.  It can only be 
obtained  through experience which is what evolution is all about.  That as 
far as I know except for poor writing skills is basically unequaled on this 
planet. 

But I'm always looking for people that I can learn from  Because no one is 
perfect and any one who thinks they are. Are only fooling themselves. Your 
glaring problem is you think your perfect. I'm the fist one to say I know 
zero. Please teach me. Because without knowledge you are or have nothing.  
The babblings of the Idiot        

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> He is the son of our local sheriff His name is Brian Pi=
ckell and he is with a firm in Troy Mi.&nbsp; He is a mechanical&nbsp; engin=
eer and has viewed demos. I would have to find his card around here or call=20=
his father. WE only consulted with him. We did not contract with.&nbsp; He s=
aid he saw no reason to patent Because who was going to figure because basic=
ally no one is wired to.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; WE agreed Considering noble level minds are clueless.&nbsp;&nbsp; To=20=
figure out something YOU&nbsp; were taught by the EDU system that you needed=
 the info they provided to make that possible. They fed you MIS leading info=
 for a reason especially at the college level,&nbsp; so you would not be abl=
e to figure out situations. But our youth is catching on to that Game.&nbsp;=
 Because they are exposed to so much more than anybody over 30 was <BR>
<BR>
The college level is where Big Corp's have the most influence whereas they d=
o not at the grade school level. But do in regard to the books that are used=
 at that level.&nbsp; The key to figuring out situations is not listening to=
 them.&nbsp; 98% were suckered in and listened to them.<BR>
<BR>
 And that is all I see 98% of the time on the net. Is people that fell for w=
hat they were fed hook line and sinker. They were programed for a reason and=
 that was so they could be controlled. Plus they were programed to be very c=
losed and narrow minded so they would not investigate. <BR>
<BR>
That is proven because 98% of you will not investigate because of the single=
d minded attitudes that were instilled into you at an early age.&nbsp; NOW y=
ou know why the EDU&gt; System hates me because I expose their. GAME. Tom I'=
m 57 and I went to the best most innovative edu. system in this country. Thi=
s is were community EDU. was started and it worked. Where now it does not. <=
BR>
<BR>
 Plus I spent 3 years with a Tesla, Einstein and Henry Ford&nbsp;&nbsp; type=
. I have a billion dollar non tech. EDU.&nbsp; That money cannot buy.&nbsp;=20=
It can only be obtained&nbsp; through experience which is what evolution is=20=
all about.&nbsp; That as far as I know except for poor writing skills is bas=
ically unequaled on this planet. <BR>
<BR>
But I'm always looking for people that I can learn from&nbsp; Because no one=
 is perfect and any one who thinks they are. Are only fooling themselves. Yo=
ur glaring problem is you think your perfect. I'm the fist one to say I know=
 zero. Please teach me. Because without knowledge you are or have nothing.&n=
bsp; The babblings of the Idiot&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </=
B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 13:07:01 2003
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Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030307155209.00b01500 pop.mindspring.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 16:04:10 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Distributing papers via Internet versus mail
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Everyone knows that it is cheaper to distribute information via Internet, 
but the numbers are stunning.

Distributing 40,000 papers via Internet has cost me $100 ($20 per month for 
5 months). The papers average about 5 pages. If I were to copy and mail 
40,000 papers, many of them to overseas addresses, it would cost 
approximately $46,000 in postage and $12,400 in paper, envelopes and copy 
expenses, or $58,400 total. The Internet is ~580 times cheaper. It would be 
cheaper still if thousands of people suddenly decided to download 100,000 
papers in one week. (However, there are bandwidth limits. Earthlink would 
charge me considerably more than $20 for that month.)

Of course, the people who download papers also pay a little for their 
Internet connection. But for that matter they pay when you send them paper 
documents. Paper documents have to be filed and stored to be useful.

I have been converting some old paper files into computer image files, 
stored using PaperPort. It is difficult to estimate the cost. The scanning 
is the expensive and time consuming step, but filing papers is not cheap 
either. The actual storage cost of keeping documents on a hard is now 
orders of magnitude cheaper than a file cabinet, even when the document is 
in an image file.

- Jed


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:04:30 EST
Subject: Horace summed it up 
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        Horace  summed it up but the clamp on is all that is necessary but as 
far as meters that is up to you. TOM you like calling people.     You can ask 
a world class  80 year old Ph.D Physicist by the name Ralph Cruise that came 
with Gary Vesperman who is an EE   Wayne said he thought he had seen  him 
before on documentary's Gary's  mail is vman skylink.net  He lives in Vegas 
by Gary. 

TO him the demo was plain to see that what was being shown  did not require 
any measuring. AS far as I know they brought meters but they left them in the 
mini van.  Because prior to coming they had asked which ones to bring.    I 
guess the demo  was that convincing  otherwise they would have attached 
meters . And could be the only reason they did not. 

YOUR thinking there are measuring errors or you think your math will explain 
the process .  That is the first reaction from all the SCI types.       BTDT  
 You  do not want to listen to that fact that new math exists because if so 
then you know basically zero.    IF this mail is factual you can kiss a vast 
majority of main stream science's  conversion of energy theory math GOOD BYE. 
 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>Horace&nbsp; summed it up but the clamp on is all that=20=
is necessary but as far as meters that is up to you. TOM you like calling pe=
ople.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can ask a world class&nbsp; 80 year old Ph=
.D Physicist by the name Ralph Cruise that came with Gary Vesperman who is a=
n EE&nbsp;&nbsp; Wayne said he thought he had seen&nbsp; him before on docum=
entary's Gary's&nbsp; mail is vman skylink.net&nbsp; He lives in Vegas by Ga=
ry. <BR>
<BR>
TO him the demo was plain to see that what was being shown&nbsp; did not req=
uire any measuring. AS far as I know they brought meters but they left them=20=
in the mini van.&nbsp; Because prior to coming they had asked which ones to=20=
bring.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess the demo&nbsp; was that convincing&nbsp; ot=
herwise they would have attached meters . And could be the only reason they=20=
did not. <BR>
<BR>
YOUR thinking there are measuring errors or you think your math will explain=
 the process .&nbsp; That is the first reaction from all the SCI types.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BTDT&nbsp;&nbsp; You&nbsp; do not want to li=
sten to that fact that new math exists because if so then you know basically=
 zero.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IF this mail is factual you can kiss a vast majorit=
y of main stream science's&nbsp; conversion of energy theory math GOOD BYE.&=
nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 13:49:55 2003
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Subject: Re: OUR Patent Advisor 
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In a message dated 3/7/03 3:26:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com 
writes:


> I think that means you won't find any college educated people to 
> vouch for your device.
> 
> 

 WHAT are you talking about? He has a degree in Mechanical Engineering and is 
also  patent lawyer   I just called his Father the Sheriff and  obtained his 
contact info. In Troy MI  by Detroit  Which is 40 miles from here because I 
misplaced it but would have to check with him about comment.  Because  i do 
not want  judgmental skeptics wasting his time  . 

Tom In Minn  said he did not understand why we would not obtain a patent . I 
attempted to explain why not but he knows it all about any subject you 
discuss with him as you Eric .  So i said the patent lawyer said there was no 
reason to patent  call him 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/7/03=
 3:26:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I think that means you won't fi=
nd any college educated people to <BR>
vouch for your device.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
 <B>WHAT are you talking about? He has a degree in Mechanical Engineering an=
d is also&nbsp; patent lawyer&nbsp;&nbsp; I just called his Father the Sheri=
ff and&nbsp; obtained his contact info. In Troy MI&nbsp; by Detroit&nbsp; Wh=
ich is 40 miles from here because I misplaced it but would have to check wit=
h him about comment.&nbsp; Because&nbsp; i do not want&nbsp; judgmental skep=
tics wasting his time&nbsp; . <BR>
<BR>
Tom In Minn&nbsp; said he did not understand why we would not obtain a paten=
t . I attempted to explain why not but he knows it all about any subject you=
 discuss with him as you Eric .&nbsp; So i said the patent lawyer said there=
 was no reason to patent&nbsp; call him </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 14:44:05 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:43:03 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: OFF TOPIC Who's paying the bills?
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Who's paying the bills?  The axis of weasel wants the US and its coalition
to stand by threatening Iraq so inspections "work", and then even possibly
attack on a time table decided by the UN.  If so, we are police for the UN
and should be paid for by the UN for that service.  The US coalition is
simply hired help.  On the other hand, if we are simply defending
ourselves, then things should be on our timetable, and the attack on our
budget.  We have been at war with Iraq since 1991, due to continual truce
violations so there should be no need for any further justification to the
UN. UN approval should not be required for escalation, even though we
happen to be making good on one or more UN resolutions.

Since the Security Council refuses to back up their own resolutions, the UN
is irrelevant anyway.  It is just a debating society with many folks that
can not or will not take responsibility even for unanimous resolutions.  It
will sadly go the way of the League of Nations.  We have the axis of weasel
to thank for that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 17:05:18 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:03:16 EST
Subject: Re: Record week for LENR-CANR.org
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/7/2003 12:24:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:


> In honor of today's cold fusion session at the APS, I decided to advertise 
> 

What can you tell us about this?

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/7/2003 12:24:22 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In honor of today's cold fusion=
 session at the APS, I decided to advertise <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What can you tell us about this?<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, 7 Mar 03
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:42:44 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 7 Mar 03   Washington, DC   

SUMMER INTERNSHIP IN THE APS WASHINGTON OFFICE. We're looking for 
a physics graduate student or advanced undergraduate with genius
IQ and great writing skills.  Some writing experience desired.  
Two writing samples, resume and 3 letters of recommendation to:
opa aps.org by April 18, 2003.

1. COLUMBIA: THE INVESTIGATION BOARD HAS BECOME MORE INDEPENDENT.
Of the eleven initial members, ten were federal employees (WN 14
Feb 03), raising concerns about independence. Is it important?
After Challenger, Feynman said he asked NASA managers to estimate
the failure risk.  They put it at roughly 1 in 100,000, but NASA
engineers put it closer to 1 in 100.  Shiela Widnall of MIT was
added for more independence (WN 21 Feb 03), and on Wednesday,
Adm. Harold Gehman, the chair, asked NASA chief Sean O'Keefe to
add three more academics: Doug Osheroff of Stanford, professor of
physics, Nobel prize in 1996; Sally Ride, professor of space
science at UCSD, a physicist and former astronaut who was on the
Challenger board; and John Logsdon, political scientist, director
of the Space Policy Institute at George Washington University.

2. SATELLITE REPAIRS: WN OVERLOOKED THE SOLAR MAXIMUM MISSION. 
We incorrectly stated last week that Hubble was the only science
satellite repaired in orbit (WN 28 Feb 03).  Our readers lost no
time in setting us straight.  Launched in 1980, SMM's pointing
mechanism failed the first year.  NASA saw a chance to showcase a
daring rescue using the newly operational shuttle.  An astronaut
wearing a thruster backpack would maneuver to SMM, snag it with a
special tool, and tow it back to the shuttle for repair.  Alas,
the neutral buoyancy training pool simulated zero gravity nicely,
but not zero viscosity, and in the rescue attempt the astronaut
only managed to start SMM spinning wildly.  Months of planning
and training had to be scrapped.  SMM was grabbed by the Canadian
robot arm.  A mission meant to showcase unique human abilities in
space, instead proved the value of robots controlled by humans.  

3. VIRTUAL ASTRONAUT: PIONEER 10 SENDS ITS LAST SIGNAL TO EARTH. 
Its nuclear furnace has grown cold.  Launched in 1972 on a two-
year mission, the tiny 570-pound spacecraft was 30 years and 7.6
billion miles from home when it sent its last faint transmission
on 22 Jan 2003.  The first spacecraft to venture beyond Mars,
Pioneer 10 negotiated the unknown hazard of the asteroid belt to
send back the first close-up images of Jupiter.  It charted the
currents of the solar wind to the very edge of interstellar
space, while suffering the usual infirmities of old age: its
mechanical limbs arthritic; its senses dimmed by the battering of
radiation and micrometeoroids; circuits shut down to conserve
energy. It's last assignment was to find the heliopause, where
the solar wind is offset by the galactic wind, but in April 1997
it was passed by a younger, faster Voyager spacecraft.  It was
recalled to active duty by NASA's Deep Space Network as part a
communications study in support of a future interstellar probe. 
No matter, Pioneer 10 was expendable.  Requiescat in pace.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 19:41:28 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <167.1ce4a94d.2b9abfe7 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 22:39:19 EST
Subject:   READ A LITTLE about the Letec 1000  THen what I say below 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com
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   We have never said there is an =E2=80=9Cendless=E2=80=9D source of energy=
 emanating from=20
magnets. We have said that the magnets we use in the Lutec 1000 are able to=20
maintain their magnetic qualities for over twelve hundred years. That is a=20
long time when gauged by human life expectancy, but is not forever. We=20
welcome informed opinion, and to that end have sought out the highest=20
qualified people in Australia and the United States of America to review our=
=20
work.=20

The Lutec 1000 only baffles those who misinterpret the actions taking place=20
within it as being outside common scientific principles and laws, where in=20
fact it certainly is not. We will try to make a simple explanation to=20
demonstrate what motivates the Lutec 1000 motor/generator:=20

Let=E2=80=99s say we hang a ten kilo weight off a permanent magnet butted to=
 a steel=20
roofing beam, and that the only thing holding the permanent magnet to the=20
steel beam is the magnetism. Now let=E2=80=99s do the same thing, but this t=
ime with=20
an electro-magnet which requires a constant electrical input to maintain its=
=20
magnetic qualities.=20

Let=E2=80=99s say we leave them both there for ten years=E2=80=A6=20

They will both perform the same task, that of holding the ten kilos off the=20
floor. The electro-magnet, however, has needed to be fuelled by electricity=20
provided by a generator of some kind - it could be hydro, nuclear, wind,=20
solar, coal or oil - and has cost a large amount in terms of energy. Much=20
work (in the scientific sense) has been done to provide the constant electri=
c=20
current necessary to maintain its magnetic hold on the steel girder.=20

Now take notice, the permanent magnet has not needed to be energised by an=20
external source, it has done the job for =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D using only t=
he magnetism it=20
contains to perform the same job. The clue here is in the title of =E2=80=
=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D
 magnet.=20

That same principle is one of the reasons the Lutec 1000 motor turns, it is=20
of course the spinning of the centre core of the motor which is caused by th=
e=20
permanent magnets being attracted and then repulsed from the steel cores of=20
the fixed stator coils. It is this primary movement that allows the magnetic=
=20
fields around the stator coils to be =E2=80=9Ccut=E2=80=9D by the effect of=20=
the permanent=20
magnets sweeping past the steel cores of the coils.=20

Note that we have achieved two effects from one cause, thus inducing an=20
electric current per Mr Faraday=E2=80=99s theory, and so generating electric=
ity as an=20
output or product of the motors motion. The only electricity consumed has=20
been that required to temporarily charge the coils and so creating a=20
temporary magnet of like polarity to cause the permanent magnet to be=20
repulsed rather than attracted.=20

There are a couple of other major factors that we won=E2=80=99t go into here=
, suffice=20
it to say that our current prototype demonstrates 1500% more =E2=80=9Cout=
=E2=80=9D than =E2=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D
...  For the technically-minded, the following formula is used to determine=20
consumption of input power:If the waveforms are periodic with constant=20
rotational speed of the machine and constant mechanical load on the output,=20
then a calculation of energy usage over one full rotational cycle should=20
suffice. Along with all previous assumptions remaining valid, the formula=20
then becomes:(where W(T) represents the nett energy usage in joules over one=
=20
period T).=20

    THEY are saying they are producing or creating over and above what they=20
are using.   It is not possible as you say our phase conversion is not=20
possible. Power has to come from somewhere. This is the glaring problem with=
=20
physics. Main stream has dug a hole for themselves that they cannot see out=20
of. If all they see are the confines of that hole how do they expect to ever=
=20
accomplish anything. And the Lutec boys are clueless what is happening if=20
anything is happening  =20

 The best magnets will lose filed strength in operational conditions because=
=20
they are effected by heat. That is of the problems With the Sundance=20
Generator that Dennis Lee Has but that problem can be solver using the=20
existing magnets it uses.  =20

 The magnet material that Dow corning saw being used as power source and the=
y=20
have a piece of it operating a  Motor. That would fit in a small shoe box an=
d=20
operated at 20,000 Rpms at the shaft after being started by a drill  Was not=
=20
effected by heat as far as having its field strength effected but was=20
effected by cold that is just the opposite of known magnetic's as phase=20
conversion is regarding known operational aspects of electricity.=20

   Hal fox and his cousin a phy.   Gary Vesperman, Ralph Cruise, Dennis Lee,=
=20
Bruce Meland, Infinite Energy Dr Carlton Speck Delphi's Chief Scientist all=20
saw the materials dynamics demonstrated. Carl Speck was freaked out by it.=20
Ralph Cruise the smartest of all was intrigued by it. It was star trec to=20
rest of them Hal his cousin and Carl Did not see the Motor All the rest did=20
And seen where the brass bearings inside  became magnetized. That is not=20
possible and they would not attack each other.=20

Now you can see something like the Lutec 1000 does not impress me The motor=20
could be restarted for 35,000 for controlled demo purposes because exposure=20
to the fields being generated would cause human DNA damage. That was prime=20
factor that took Wayne's life 12 years later.  It would cost 20 million and=20=
3=20
years to dev. into a product. But Now we are going to because it is too=20
exotic. At our present rate of evolution we are 1500 years away from being o=
n=20
that level =20

 He was abducted by aliens out west 25 years ago and it was as close as he=20
could come to reproducing what he had saw in there ship. It was not the driv=
e=20
system WE now know after his death the drive system was a COMBINATION of Ant=
i=20
matter,  Ion, and some form of Hydrogen but not as you understand it I guess=
=20
I'm certifiable now because of these nonsense statements.

 Main stream science i actually feel sorry for you but you made your bed and=
=20
you will have to lay in it. Your prime blunder was not embracing Tesla. You=20
bet on Einstein and made him your hero that was the wrong horse. Plus if you=
=20
would have bet on Tesla you would 100 years ahead of where you at now.     =20=
 =20
          =20
   =20

=20

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><P ALIGN=3DJUSTIFY><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00008=
0" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; We=
 have never said there is an =E2=80=9Cendless=E2=80=9D source of energy eman=
ating from magnets. We have said that the magnets we use in the Lutec 1000 a=
re able to maintain their magnetic qualities for over twelve hundred years.=20=
That is a long time when gauged by human life expectancy, but is not forever=
. We welcome informed opinion, and to that end have sought out the highest q=
ualified people in Australia and the United States of America to review our=20=
work. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI=
ZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">The Lutec 1000 only baffle=
s those who misinterpret the actions taking place within it as being outside=
 common scientific principles and laws, where in fact it certainly is not. W=
e will try to make a simple explanation to demonstrate what motivates the Lu=
tec 1000 motor/generator: </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUN=
D-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">=
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">Let=E2=80=99s say we hang=20=
a ten kilo weight off a permanent magnet butted to a steel roofing beam, and=
 that the only thing holding the permanent magnet to the steel beam is the m=
agnetism. Now let=E2=80=99s do the same thing, but this time with an electro=
-magnet which requires a constant electrical input to maintain its magnetic=20=
qualities. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">Let=E2=80=99s say we leave=
 them both there for ten years=E2=80=A6 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" styl=
e=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdan=
a" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">They will both perform the=
 same task, that of holding the ten kilos off the floor. The electro-magnet,=
 however, has needed to be fuelled by electricity provided by a generator of=
 some kind - it could be hydro, nuclear, wind, solar, coal or oil - and has=20=
cost a large amount in terms of energy. Much work (in the scientific sense)=20=
has been done to provide the constant electric current necessary to maintain=
 its magnetic hold on the steel girder. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" styl=
e=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdan=
a" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">Now take notice, the perma=
nent magnet has not needed to be energised by an external source, it has don=
e the job for =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D using only the magnetism it contains to=
 perform the same job. The clue here is in the title of =E2=80=9Cpermanent=
=E2=80=9D magnet. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">That same principle is one=
 of the reasons the Lutec 1000 motor turns, it is of course the spinning of=20=
the centre core of the motor which is caused by the permanent magnets being=20=
attracted and then repulsed from the steel cores of the fixed stator coils.=20=
It is this primary movement that allows the magnetic fields around the stato=
r coils to be =E2=80=9Ccut=E2=80=9D by the effect of the permanent magnets s=
weeping past the steel cores of the coils. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" s=
tyle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ver=
dana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">Note that we have achieved=
 two effects from one cause, thus inducing an electric current per Mr Farada=
y=E2=80=99s theory, and so generating electricity as an output or product of=
 the motors motion. The only electricity consumed has been that required to=20=
temporarily charge the coils and so creating a temporary magnet of like pola=
rity to cause the permanent magnet to be repulsed rather than attracted. </F=
ONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FA=
MILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">There are a couple of othe=
r major factors that we won=E2=80=99t go into here, suffice it to say that o=
ur current prototype demonstrates 1500% more =E2=80=9Cout=E2=80=9D than =E2=
=80=9Cin=E2=80=9D...&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUN=
D-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">=
 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">For the technically-mi=
nded, the following formula is used to determine consumption of input power:=
If the waveforms are periodic with constant rotational speed of the machine=20=
and constant mechanical load on the output, then a calculation of energy usa=
ge over one full rotational cycle should suffice. Along with all previous as=
sumptions remaining valid, the formula then becomes:<IMG  SRC=3D"http://www.=
lutec.com.au/images/formula.jpg" WIDTH=3D"182" HEIGHT=3D"89" BORDER=3D"0">(w=
here W(T) represents the nett energy usage in joules over one period T).</FO=
NT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAM=
ILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>
<BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT>    THEY are saying they are producing or creating over and=20=
above what they are using.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is not possible as you say our pha=
se conversion is not possible. Power has to come from somewhere. This is the=
 glaring problem with physics. Main stream has dug a hole for themselves tha=
t they cannot see out of. If all they see are the confines of that hole how=20=
do they expect to ever accomplish anything. And the Lutec boys are clueless=20=
what is happening if anything is happening&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 The best magnets will lose filed strength in operational conditions because=
 they are effected by heat. That is of the problems With the Sundance Genera=
tor that Dennis Lee Has but that problem can be solver using the existing ma=
gnets it uses.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 The magnet material that Dow corning saw being used as power source and the=
y have a piece of it operating a&nbsp; Motor. That would fit in a small shoe=
 box and operated at 20,000 Rpms at the shaft after being started by a drill=
&nbsp; Was not effected by heat as far as having its field strength effected=
 but was effected by cold that is just the opposite of known magnetic's as p=
hase conversion is regarding known operational aspects of electricity. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal fox and his cousin a phy.&nbsp;&nbsp; Gary Vesperman, Ralph=
 Cruise, Dennis Lee, Bruce Meland, Infinite Energy Dr Carlton Speck Delphi's=
 Chief Scientist all saw the materials dynamics demonstrated. Carl Speck was=
 freaked out by it. Ralph Cruise the smartest of all was intrigued by it. It=
 was star trec to rest of them Hal his cousin and Carl Did not see the Motor=
 All the rest did And seen where the brass bearings inside&nbsp; became magn=
etized. That is not possible and they would not attack each other. <BR>
<BR>
Now you can see something like the Lutec 1000 does not impress me The motor=20=
could be restarted for 35,000 for controlled demo purposes because exposure=20=
to the fields being generated would cause human DNA damage. That was prime f=
actor that took Wayne's life 12 years later.&nbsp; It would cost 20 million=20=
and 3 years to dev. into a product. But Now we are going to because it is to=
o exotic. At our present rate of evolution we are 1500 years away from being=
 on that level&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 He was abducted by aliens out west 25 years ago and it was as close as he c=
ould come to reproducing what he had saw in there ship. It was not the drive=
 system WE now know after his death the drive system was a COMBINATION of An=
ti matter,&nbsp; Ion, and some form of Hydrogen but not as you understand it=
 I guess I'm certifiable now because of these nonsense statements.<BR>
<BR>
 Main stream science i actually feel sorry for you but you made your bed and=
 you will have to lay in it. Your prime blunder was not embracing Tesla. You=
 bet on Einstein and made him your hero that was the wrong horse. Plus if yo=
u would have bet on Tesla you would 100 years ahead of where you at now.&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
</P></P></FONT> </HTML>

--part1_167.1ce4a94d.2b9abfe7_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 20:23:49 2003
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA27977;
	Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:22:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:22:41 -0800
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d2.4977928.2b9ac9e4 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 23:21:56 EST
Subject: What is wrong with the Columbia investigating Board ?
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In a message dated 3/7/03 10:04:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
aki ix.netcom.com writes:
            THERE  is a glaring problem here,  where is the basically self 
taught inventive type in this group.??  THat is the key this group is missing 
. THe Tech's here would have these people as a snack before lunch and not 
even burp.  Sally Ride is the only one in the bunch worth her salt. 

> 1. COLUMBIA: THE INVESTIGATION BOARD HAS BECOME MORE INDEPENDENT.
> Of the eleven initial members, ten were federal employees (WN 14
> Feb 03), raising concerns about independence. Is it important?
> After Challenger, Feynman said he asked NASA managers to estimate
> the failure risk.  They put it at roughly 1 in 100,000, but NASA
> engineers put it closer to 1 in 100.  Shiela Widnall of MIT was
> added for more independence (WN 21 Feb 03), and on Wednesday,
> Adm. Harold Gehman, the chair, asked NASA chief Sean O'Keefe to
> add three more academics: Doug Osheroff of Stanford, professor of
> physics, Nobel prize in 1996; Sally Ride, professor of space
> science at UCSD, a physicist and former astronaut who was on the
> Challenger board; and John Logsdon, political scientist, director
> of the Space Policy Institute at George Washington University.
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/7/03=
 10:04:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, aki ix.netcom.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THERE&nbs=
p; is a glaring problem here,&nbsp; where is the basically self taught inven=
tive type in this group.??&nbsp; THat is the key this group is missing . THe=
 Tech's here would have these people as a snack before lunch and not even bu=
rp.&nbsp; Sally Ride is the only one in the bunch worth her salt. <BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">1. COLUMBIA: THE INVESTIGATION=20=
BOARD HAS BECOME MORE INDEPENDENT.<BR>
Of the eleven initial members, ten were federal employees (WN 14<BR>
Feb 03), raising concerns about independence. Is it important?<BR>
After Challenger, Feynman said he asked NASA managers to estimate<BR>
the failure risk.&nbsp; They put it at roughly 1 in 100,000, but NASA<BR>
engineers put it closer to 1 in 100.&nbsp; Shiela Widnall of MIT was<BR>
added for more independence (WN 21 Feb 03), and on Wednesday,<BR>
Adm. Harold Gehman, the chair, asked NASA chief Sean O'Keefe to<BR>
add three more academics: Doug Osheroff of Stanford, professor of<BR>
physics, Nobel prize in 1996; Sally Ride, professor of space<BR>
science at UCSD, a physicist and former astronaut who was on the<BR>
Challenger board; and John Logsdon, political scientist, director<BR>
of the Space Policy Institute at George Washington University.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, 7 Mar 03
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:42:44 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 7 Mar 03   Washington, DC   

SUMMER INTERNSHIP IN THE APS WASHINGTON OFFICE. We're looking for 
a physics graduate student or advanced undergraduate with genius
IQ and great writing skills.  Some writing experience desired.  
Two writing samples, resume and 3 letters of recommendation to:
opa aps.org by April 18, 2003.

1. COLUMBIA: THE INVESTIGATION BOARD HAS BECOME MORE INDEPENDENT.
Of the eleven initial members, ten were federal employees (WN 14
Feb 03), raising concerns about independence. Is it important?
After Challenger, Feynman said he asked NASA managers to estimate
the failure risk.  They put it at roughly 1 in 100,000, but NASA
engineers put it closer to 1 in 100.  Shiela Widnall of MIT was
added for more independence (WN 21 Feb 03), and on Wednesday,
Adm. Harold Gehman, the chair, asked NASA chief Sean O'Keefe to
add three more academics: Doug Osheroff of Stanford, professor of
physics, Nobel prize in 1996; Sally Ride, professor of space
science at UCSD, a physicist and former astronaut who was on the
Challenger board; and John Logsdon, political scientist, director
of the Space Policy Institute at George Washington University.

2. SATELLITE REPAIRS: WN OVERLOOKED THE SOLAR MAXIMUM MISSION. 
We incorrectly stated last week that Hubble was the only science
satellite repaired in orbit (WN 28 Feb 03).  Our readers lost no
time in setting us straight.  Launched in 1980, SMM's pointing
mechanism failed the first year.  NASA saw a chance to showcase a
daring rescue using the newly operational shuttle.  An astronaut
wearing a thruster backpack would maneuver to SMM, snag it with a
special tool, and tow it back to the shuttle for repair.  Alas,
the neutral buoyancy training pool simulated zero gravity nicely,
but not zero viscosity, and in the rescue attempt the astronaut
only managed to start SMM spinning wildly.  Months of planning
and training had to be scrapped.  SMM was grabbed by the Canadian
robot arm.  A mission meant to showcase unique human abilities in
space, instead proved the value of robots controlled by humans.  

3. VIRTUAL ASTRONAUT: PIONEER 10 SENDS ITS LAST SIGNAL TO EARTH. 
Its nuclear furnace has grown cold.  Launched in 1972 on a two-
year mission, the tiny 570-pound spacecraft was 30 years and 7.6
billion miles from home when it sent its last faint transmission
on 22 Jan 2003.  The first spacecraft to venture beyond Mars,
Pioneer 10 negotiated the unknown hazard of the asteroid belt to
send back the first close-up images of Jupiter.  It charted the
currents of the solar wind to the very edge of interstellar
space, while suffering the usual infirmities of old age: its
mechanical limbs arthritic; its senses dimmed by the battering of
radiation and micrometeoroids; circuits shut down to conserve
energy. It's last assignment was to find the heliopause, where
the solar wind is offset by the galactic wind, but in April 1997
it was passed by a younger, faster Voyager spacecraft.  It was
recalled to active duty by NASA's Deep Space Network as part a
communications study in support of a future interstellar probe. 
No matter, Pioneer 10 was expendable.  Requiescat in pace.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 21:27:21 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1e6.3ceb619.2b9ad8cd aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 00:25:33 EST
Subject:   TOM did you get the disk ?
To: eric voicenet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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          ERIC , Wayne was able to accomplish what he did by staying totally 
out box.  Physics for the most part is all going change and  the new 
equations going back as far 30 years. will not be pub. Because they will be 
proven by the demonstration of inventions. Such as phase conversion does.

 I'm very curious to see what Tom in Minn. on vortex  reaction is going to be 
when he gets that CD disk from Warren at Thermo King.  Naturally I care less 
what it is. But I did not drive all the way to Minn which is way out of my 
way enroute to Salt Lake and SAN FRAN  then Bend Or. to see Bruce Meland  
then back to SAN FRAN if  it was not totally real. 

I did not Plan on going to Montana on my way out if I had I would have went 
there after Minn. Because I had to come back Thu Minn . on my way back and I 
caught afternoon traffic in Minneapolis when I did. It was worse  than  
Sacramental   I wanted to stay  in RENO  but not for gambling  When you go 
past Lake Tahoa and into Calif. there is a 50 MI down hill grade that is 
fantastic especially in an exotic fast auto  OR is a beautiful state because 
of all the Volcanos        

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> ERIC , Wayne was able to accomplish what he=
 did by staying totally out box.&nbsp; Physics for the most part is all goin=
g change and&nbsp; the new equations going back as far 30 years. will not be=
 pub. Because they will be proven by the demonstration of inventions. Such a=
s phase conversion does.<BR>
<BR>
 I'm very curious to see what Tom in Minn. on vortex&nbsp; reaction is going=
 to be when he gets that CD disk from Warren at Thermo King.&nbsp; Naturally=
 I care less what it is. But I did not drive all the way to Minn which is wa=
y out of my way enroute to Salt Lake and SAN FRAN&nbsp; then Bend Or. to see=
 Bruce Meland&nbsp; then back to SAN FRAN if&nbsp; it was not totally real.=20=
<BR>
<BR>
I did not Plan on going to Montana on my way out if I had I would have went=20=
there after Minn. Because I had to come back Thu Minn . on my way back and I=
 caught afternoon traffic in Minneapolis when I did. It was worse&nbsp; than=
&nbsp; Sacramental&nbsp;&nbsp; I wanted to stay&nbsp; in RENO&nbsp; but not=20=
for gambling&nbsp; When you go past Lake Tahoa and into Calif. there is a 50=
 MI down hill grade that is fantastic especially in an exotic fast auto&nbsp=
; OR is a beautiful state because of all the Volcanos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 22:28:46 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Large scale calorimetry
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 01:45:26 -0500
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Hi Horace and Tom

Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess
if he's got a water heater. Just run the unknown
device into the heater and measure the steady state
temp. Now calibrate the heater with a variac and
60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.
That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would
be a differential device with two heaters. 

Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks
simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it
can be devilishly subtle. 

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 2:37 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IN the box Scientific Types total ignorance


At 11:27 PM 3/6/3, thomas malloy wrote:

>I was planning on using our clamp on ampmeter, Horace, do you have
>any suggestions on how am I going to measure this? That is without
>sophisticated instruments?

Unfortunately, you will need a good power analyser, like a Clarck-Hess, or
a very good scope with power measurement capabilities.  If you can actually
get good access to something to test you might be able to get some help
along those lines from Earthtech.  Since Carey says he knows Puthoff and
vice versa, maybe not.

Something that might be useful is to provide your own kwh meter and then
measure kwh via Clark-Hess vs kwh on the meter. I have a meter and box I
can mail you if you can get the rest of the stuff you need, though I can't
vouch for the calibration on my kwh meter.  Earthtech has kwh meters too.
You might be lucky enough to get Scott Little along with some meters and PC
software etc.  He likes road trips I gather, but it may be hard to convince
Earthtech to spend anything on this.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  7 23:48:25 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 22:47:38 -0900
To: <knagel gis.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Large scale calorimetry
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At 1:45 AM 3/8/3, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi Horace and Tom
>
>Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess
>if he's got a water heater.

You need the power analyser for the INPUT POWER.



>Just run the unknown
>device into the heater and measure the steady state
>temp.

Somtimes it's better to measure temperature rise of an insulated body of
water with time and also look at the decay curve afterward.  Steady state
requires matched cooling and heating.  If cooling is less than heating then
you can obviously get into the boiling regime, which makes calorimetry more
difficult.


>Now calibrate the heater with a variac and
>60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.
>That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would
>be a differential device with two heaters.
>
>Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks
>simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it
>can be devilishly subtle.

Amen to that.  For example, stirring is usually important, either
continually or at least right before water temp. measurment.  If yo go for
steady state then you need to be sure the water is stirred to insure
uniform heat transfer.  You are then at the mercy of the quality of
external insulation.  This is why I suggested using a cooler and to measure
the temp. decay curve after power off.  Getting everything right takes some
time.

If you post the numbers we can all take a look and calculate your
calorimeter constants and compare notes.

Scott little has a very nifty computerized portable setup for calorimetery
- another reason you may want to try to get his help if you get good solid
test time.

BTW, you can measure motor output using calorimetry by simply stirring
water with a motor dirven paddle and measuring temperature periodically as
the water heats and then cools when power is off.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 06:09:07 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:03:52 EST
Subject: TOM  You talked to Warren about the phase con. disk   
To: temalloy metro.lakes.com, eric@voicenet.com, opa@aps.org,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
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  TOM    Does he want to keep the CD that shows the single phase to 3 phase 
conversion Tech.  ?    You can burn a copy before the next meeting?  And when 
is the next meeting that he would bring it to?  Your an electrician so you 
should be able to offer a report as far as what you see on it,  that if 
factual what  is being shown is not possible  according to known math?  

You have hands on electrical experience whereas  An engineer or physicist 
does not all they know is the theory side which is only an opinion that they 
made into a law like it is absolute  Naturally you cannot verify it by 
watching the disk. You can call me when you are so I can lead you through it 
and explain what your viewing?
 I can also do that on a speaker phone at your meeting so those attending who 
are all ready Tesla inclined can ask questions so they can attempt to relate 
to what they are viewing because no bases presently exist for them to work 
from. They would need to view it a couple of times before calling me and then 
play it again during the call    

 WE only see people here that have made far in advance arrangements. Because 
Presently I'm up from 6 in the morning to midnight on the computer and making 
and receiving calls from across the planet. Right now we have an advanced 
Fiber Optic manuf. process change that is theoretical. That would 
dramatically increase fiber optic performance that we are attempting to 
license. WE are paying finders fees by the way. For contacts that 
materialize.  Corning thinks they know it all, Like GM, Belden is a possibly 
interested I have spoken with one of there Vice Presidents and just Spoke to 
Lucent/Bell Lab's Fri.     

 Play the CD at the meeting then they can see real operational TESLA  that 
will power up industry anywhere single phase is available. THAT along totally 
changes the dynamics of a civilization. For example in rural MINN   where no 
3 phase in available to start out with and if it was the cost to have brought 
on to a site would be several thousand    WITH that technology you could 
build an industrial factory using only single phase which is not possible 
presently.  Does your friend think he has something on that level? LETS SEE 
IT  

  WARREN was totally lost he did not have a clue how to begin to grasp what 
is on that disk.  OR did the other three engineers WHAT is on that disk is so 
far beyond his and yours understanding it is not even funny it is sad that 
science knows so little. That disk  TOM  puts main stream science back to 
1875 levels and known electrical theory RIGHT down the drain  RIGHT NOW.   IF 
SO TOM I would say that CD shows  one of the most if not the most  Important  
discovery's  in history 

CONSIDERING  A/C is the dominate power situation on this planet   if not for 
A/C  current we would still be riding horses. Because with Edison's, DC we 
would have to have a power plant every mile.  And would Computers TV and 
refrigerators exist.? 

 The auto Ind. was build with 3 phase power  NOW are you starting to GRASP 
the magnitude of Phase conversion that is a tinker toy to us that we are not 
going to Manuf.  NOW YOU should be able to see why main stream science bores 
me to no end with there totally ignorant of new possible situations counter 
productive theories.  

YOUR in a totally different world now IT is so far ahead of yours it is not 
even funny. TOM  IT is sad our science in the US is as ignorant as they are.  
The Russians make us look like fools.  There are some smart boys over there 
we want on our team. I wouldn't  give a plug nickel for a college only 
trained Eng. or Phy. that went to US schools. 

 THE MORONS and they have not been able to prove that assumption incorrect as 
of yet were given chances to evolve  by Tesla and others. But preferred to 
remain  totally ignorant and are true to form now as they were then. They do 
not even understand enough of Even Einstein that would fill one page of a 
5000 page book. 

That can be wrote and in time will be. If you have a desire to gain 
incredible engineering knowledge read engineering and math books that you can 
find. that were published between 1875 and 1940.  1909 TO  1919 especially. 
The ones today are basically worthless 

 Understand the library of congress has systematically attempted to remove 
those books from circulation for around a generation. When you finish with 
them I would be willing to buy them if necessary in order to stock a library. 
I would not read one of them because I cannot understand them because I 
cannot relate to books unless someone reads them to me and explains them as 
they do. 

  I'm attempting to recreate a situation that would resemble to a minor 
extent the great library that was burned 2500 years ago in Alexandria when 
basically all the vast knowledge of pre history was lost. TOM if you had any 
idea what Westinghouse has of Tesla's you would probably make a mess in you 
shorts. 

They are still basically clueless what any of the situations are about. 
Dennis Lee and Columbia have a ton of Tesla info that needs to be combined 
also. Steve whats his name had a gold mine that Smart Dennis Lee bought for a 
song. When Steve went belly up with the Tesla society. I spent 11 days total 
here and there  with Dennis Lee he is a smart person but not that scientific 
inclined.           

Main stream is going to leave me no choice that I can see but to  leave them 
to fend for themselves  In what I call the Cold dark foreboding sea of 
ignorance  WAYNE is not here to bury main stream science with their arrogant 
know it all attitudes so I have to cause it to happen. 

This is part of the systematic process. You can thank Eric Kreig it was his 
idea I join this site. He is now having a good laugh at your expense boys. 
ONE mans work totally changed the dynamics of a civilization. Over a century 
ago WELL i suggest your be prepared because it will happen again       

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; TOM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;<B> Does he want to keep the CD that shows the single phase to 3 phase co=
nversion Tech.&nbsp; ?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can burn a copy before the next=
 meeting?&nbsp; And when is the next meeting that he would bring it to?&nbsp=
; Your an electrician so you should be able to offer a report as far as what=
 you see on it,&nbsp; that if factual what&nbsp; is being shown is not possi=
ble&nbsp; according to known math?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
You have hands on electrical experience whereas&nbsp; An engineer or physici=
st does not all they know is the theory side which is only an opinion that t=
hey made into a law like it is absolute&nbsp; Naturally you cannot verify it=
 by watching the disk. You can call me when you are so I can lead you throug=
h it and explain what your viewing?<BR>
 I can also do that on a speaker phone at your meeting so those attending wh=
o are all ready Tesla inclined can ask questions so they can attempt to rela=
te to what they are viewing because no bases presently exist for them to wor=
k from. They would need to view it a couple of times before calling me and t=
hen play it again during the call&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 WE only see people here that have made far in advance arrangements. Because=
 Presently I'm up from 6 in the morning to midnight on the computer and maki=
ng and receiving calls from across the planet. Right now we have an advanced=
 Fiber Optic manuf. process change that is theoretical. That would dramatica=
lly increase fiber optic performance that we are attempting to license. WE a=
re paying finders fees by the way. For contacts that materialize.&nbsp; Corn=
ing thinks they know it all, Like GM, Belden is a possibly interested I have=
 spoken with one of there Vice Presidents and just Spoke to Lucent/Bell Lab'=
s Fri.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Play the CD at the meeting then they can see real operational TESLA&nbsp; t=
hat will power up industry anywhere single phase is available. THAT along to=
tally changes the dynamics of a civilization. For example in rural MINN&nbsp=
;&nbsp; where no 3 phase in available to start out with and if it was the co=
st to have brought on to a site would be several thousand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
WITH that technology you could build an industrial factory using only single=
 phase which is not possible presently.&nbsp; Does your friend think he has=20=
something on that level? LETS SEE IT&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; WARREN was totally lost he did not have a clue how to begin to grasp=20=
what is on that disk.&nbsp; OR did the other three engineers WHAT is on that=
 disk is so far beyond his and yours understanding it is not even funny it i=
s sad that science knows so little. That disk&nbsp; TOM&nbsp; puts main stre=
am science back to 1875 levels and known electrical theory RIGHT down the dr=
ain&nbsp; RIGHT NOW.&nbsp;&nbsp; IF SO TOM I would say that CD shows&nbsp; o=
ne of the most if not the most&nbsp; Important&nbsp; discovery's&nbsp; in hi=
story <BR>
<BR>
CONSIDERING&nbsp; A/C is the dominate power situation on this planet&nbsp;&n=
bsp; if not for A/C&nbsp; current we would still be riding horses. Because w=
ith Edison's, DC we would have to have a power plant every mile.&nbsp; And w=
ould Computers TV and refrigerators exist.? <BR>
<BR>
 The auto Ind. was build with 3 phase power&nbsp; NOW are you starting to GR=
ASP the magnitude of Phase conversion that is a tinker toy to us that we are=
 not going to Manuf.&nbsp; NOW YOU should be able to see why main stream sci=
ence bores me to no end with there totally ignorant of new possible situatio=
ns counter productive theories.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
YOUR in a totally different world now IT is so far ahead of yours it is not=20=
even funny. TOM&nbsp; IT is sad our science in the US is as ignorant as they=
 are.&nbsp; The Russians make us look like fools.&nbsp; There are some smart=
 boys over there we want on our team. I wouldn't&nbsp; give a plug nickel fo=
r a college only trained Eng. or Phy. that went to US schools. <BR>
<BR>
 THE MORONS and they have not been able to prove that assumption incorrect a=
s of yet were given chances to evolve&nbsp; by Tesla and others. But preferr=
ed to remain&nbsp; totally ignorant and are true to form now as they were th=
en. They do not even understand enough of Even Einstein that would fill one=20=
page of a 5000 page book. <BR>
<BR>
That can be wrote and in time will be. If you have a desire to gain incredib=
le engineering knowledge read engineering and math books that you can find.=20=
that were published between 1875 and 1940.&nbsp; 1909 TO&nbsp; 1919 especial=
ly. The ones today are basically worthless <BR>
<BR>
 Understand the library of congress has systematically attempted to remove t=
hose books from circulation for around a generation. When you finish with th=
em I would be willing to buy them if necessary in order to stock a library.=20=
I would not read one of them because I cannot understand them because I cann=
ot relate to books unless someone reads them to me and explains them as they=
 do. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; I'm attempting to recreate a situation that would resemble to a minor=
 extent the great library that was burned 2500 years ago in Alexandria when=20=
basically all the vast knowledge of pre history was lost. TOM if you had any=
 idea what Westinghouse has of Tesla's you would probably make a mess in you=
 shorts. <BR>
<BR>
They are still basically clueless what any of the situations are about. Denn=
is Lee and Columbia have a ton of Tesla info that needs to be combined also.=
 Steve whats his name had a gold mine that Smart Dennis Lee bought for a son=
g. When Steve went belly up with the Tesla society. I spent 11 days total he=
re and there&nbsp; with Dennis Lee he is a smart person but not that scienti=
fic inclined.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B=
R>
<BR>
Main stream is going to leave me no choice that I can see but to&nbsp; leave=
 them to fend for themselves&nbsp; In what I call the Cold dark foreboding s=
ea of ignorance&nbsp; WAYNE is not here to bury main stream science with the=
ir arrogant know it all attitudes so I have to cause it to happen. <BR>
<BR>
This is part of the systematic process. You can thank Eric Kreig it was his=20=
idea I join this site. He is now having a good laugh at your expense boys. O=
NE mans work totally changed the dynamics of a civilization. Over a century=20=
ago WELL i suggest your be prepared because it will happen again&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 07:24:43 2003
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Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 10:21:59 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Large scale calorimetry
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Somtimes it's better to measure temperature rise of an insulated body of
>water with time and also look at the decay curve afterward.  Steady state
>requires matched cooling and heating.

I observed Mizuno use both methods with glow discharge, and I think the 
first method is easier. If the reaction occurs quickly and the excess is 
large enough, you do not even need to worry about the decay curve, although 
you should measure it anyway. A bomb calorimeter uses this method to 
measure heat from rapid chemical reactions.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 07:32:54 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <ac.3b3f2570.2b9b6663 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:29:39 EST
Subject: Large scale calorimetry Your going hate me Nagle 
To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com, opa@aps.org
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In a message dated 3/8/03 1:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:


> Hi Horace and Tom
> 
> Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess
> if he's got a water heater. Just run the unknown
> device into the heater and measure the steady state
> temp. Now calibrate the heater with a variac and
> 60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.
> That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would
> be a differential device with two heaters. 
> 
> Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks
> simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it
> can be devilishly subtle. 
>                                     REPLY NOW I see  where these 
> complicated cluster you know what ideas come from. Actually I all ready 
> know all this     The glaring problem is in  our EDU system .and  is caused 
> by there arrogance and attempts to  control.  Today  Scientific inclined 
> people are taught to think in complicated terms for a reason so as to make 
> it very difficult for them to tackle problems.  That could be solved Using 
> simple real world common sense investigative thinking. Which is the method 
> our forefathers used. 

    Plus the EDU system can milk them for 4 years and longer when all they 
need is probably a one year EDU>  Because > if they used that method of 
> thinking they would solve problems. Because that is how our forefathers 
> accomplished what they were able to and is why we cannot. They obtained a 
> basic EDU. then gained the rest of there knowledge by  experiencing real  
> world situations   

  Presently multitudes of restrictive theory roadblocks are placed in the way 
so they cannot grasp simple thinking processes to any extent. That way they 
do not > learn squat and get milk dry of money in the process. Talk about 
> being HAD>   BOY did they program you.  And sucked you dry of money in the 
> process and you never caught on to there game.  PLUS  you fell for it hook 
> line and sinker Nagel  along with many others. 

    Now you should see how easy it will be to bury main stream science along 
with their arrogant attitudes. 
> Actually they will bury themselves. After they are instructed where to dig 
> the hole. Because that would be an insurmountable problem for them to 
> solve. Because they have no theories that will provide the answers to the 
> operational side of the actual physical  process of  digging the hole.   

  BOYS  HOW do you like being confronted with my  billion dollar edu. That 
can only be gained through 
> experience. Thanks Nagle for providing me  the opportunity that allowed me 
> to pound the final nail into main stream science's  coffin. I was wondering 
> when  a fish like you would come along. Now main stream you have reached 
> the pinnacle of your influence.  NOW It is all down hill from here for you. 
>       ???????????????????        
> K.
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/8/03=
 1:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hi Horace and Tom<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess<BR>
if he's got a water heater. Just run the unknown<BR>
device into the heater and measure the steady state<BR>
temp. Now calibrate the heater with a variac and<BR>
60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.<BR>
That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would<BR>
be a differential device with two heaters. <BR>
<BR>
Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks<BR>
simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it<BR>
can be devilishly subtle. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY NOW I se=
e&nbsp; where these complicated cluster you know what ideas come from. Actua=
lly I all ready know all this&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The glaring problem is=
 in&nbsp; our EDU system .and&nbsp; is caused by there arrogance and attempt=
s to&nbsp; control.&nbsp; Today&nbsp; Scientific inclined people are taught=20=
to think in complicated terms for a reason so as to make it very difficult f=
or them to tackle problems.&nbsp; That could be solved Using simple real wor=
ld common sense investigative thinking. Which is the method our forefathers=20=
used. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI=
ZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Plus the=20=
EDU system can milk them for 4 years and longer when all they need is probab=
ly a one year EDU&gt;&nbsp; Because <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:=20=
5px">if they used that method of thinking they would solve problems. Because=
 that is how our forefathers accomplished what they were able to and is why=20=
we cannot. They obtained a basic EDU. then gained the rest of there knowledg=
e by&nbsp; experiencing real&nbsp; world situations&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; Presently multitudes=20=
of restrictive theory roadblocks are placed in the way so they cannot grasp=20=
simple thinking processes to any extent. That way they do not <BLOCKQUOTE TY=
PE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-=
RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">learn squat and get milk dry of money in the=20=
process. Talk about being HAD&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; BOY did they program you.&nbsp=
; And sucked you dry of money in the process and you never caught on to ther=
e game.&nbsp; PLUS&nbsp; you fell for it hook line and sinker Nagel&nbsp; al=
ong with many others. </BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<B><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now you should see how easy it will be to bury main strea=
m science along with their arrogant attitudes. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Actually they will bury themselves. After they are instr=
ucted where to dig the hole. Because that would be an insurmountable problem=
 for them to solve. Because they have no theories that will provide the answ=
ers to the operational side of the actual physical&nbsp; process of&nbsp; di=
gging the hole.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGRO=
UND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">=
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp; BOYS&nbsp; HOW do you like being confronted with my&nbsp; billion=20=
dollar edu. That can only be gained through </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=20=
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>experience. Thanks Nagle for providing me&nbsp; the oppo=
rtunity that allowed me to pound the final nail into main stream science's&n=
bsp; coffin. I was wondering when&nbsp; a fish like you would come along. No=
w main stream you have reached the pinnacle of your influence.&nbsp; NOW It=20=
is all down hill from here for you.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ????=
???????????????&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
K.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <188.168ae29f.2b9b6655 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:29:25 EST
Subject: Fwd: [Antigravity] LIVING WATER Schauberger Water Vortex engine at:http://un
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In a message dated 3/8/2003 12:13:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
unamity yahoo.co.uk writes:

> Subj: Re: [Antigravity] LIVING WATER 
>  Date: 3/8/2003 12:13:09 AM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: <A HREF="mailto:unamity yahoo.co.uk">unamity@yahoo.co.uk</A>
>  Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroups.com</A>
>  To: <A HREF="mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroups.com</A>
>  Sent from the Internet 
> ...
> 
> Yes. Living Water is real.  There is creation,
> the experiential continuum ... looking you in the face.
> 
> Do a keyword search under Schauberger ...
> 
> Brief mention of Schauberger Water Vortex engine at:
> 
>   <A HREF="http://unamity.com/WorkShop">http://unamity.com/WorkShop</A> ...
> 
> 
> mt
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> <A HREF="http://uk.my.yahoo.com/">http://uk.my.yahoo.com</A>
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <A HREF="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</A>. 
> 



Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/8/2003 12:13:09 AM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, unamity yahoo.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj: <B>Re: [Antigravity] LIVI=
NG WATER </B><BR>
 Date: 3/8/2003 12:13:09 AM Eastern Standard Time<BR>
 From: <A HREF=3D"mailto:unamity yahoo.co.uk">unamity@yahoo.co.uk</A><BR>
 Reply-to: <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoog=
roups.com</A><BR>
 To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroups.=
com</A><BR>
 <I>Sent from the Internet </I><BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
Yes. Living Water is real.&nbsp; There is creation,<BR>
the experiential continuum ... looking you in the face.<BR>
<BR>
Do a keyword search under Schauberger ...<BR>
<BR>
Brief mention of Schauberger Water Vortex engine at:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; <A HREF=3D"http://unamity.com/WorkShop">http://unamity.com/WorkShop</=
A> ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mt<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Everything you'll ever need on one web page<BR>
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts<BR>
<A HREF=3D"http://uk.my.yahoo.com/">http://uk.my.yahoo.com</A><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#003399" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</FO=
NT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAM=
ILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<IMG  SRC=3D"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=3D247865.3003379.4374531.28484=
52/D=3Degroupmail/S=3D:HM/A=3D1482387/rand=3D403585675" WIDTH=3D"1" HEIGHT=
=3D"1" BORDER=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <A HREF=3D"http://docs.yahoo.com=
/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</A>. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
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Do a keyword search under Schauberger ...<BR>
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Brief mention of Schauberger Water Vortex engine at:<BR>
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&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://unamity.com/WorkShop">http://unamity.com/WorkShop</a> ...<BR>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 08:05:21 2003
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Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:02:19 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Record week for LENR-CANR.org [COPY 2]
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Frank wrote:

>>In honor of today's cold fusion session at the APS, I decided to advertise
>
>
>What can you tell us about this?

I can tell you it's over. See:

http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR03/baps/abs/S9530.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 08:06:03 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <186.16a19086.2b9b6d3b aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:58:51 EST
Subject: Re: Large scale calorimetry I think giving birth would be easier 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, knagel@gis.net
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          That these no investigative judgmental assumptions about something 
main stream science basically knows zero about Your putting the cart in front 
of the horse    First  talk to the horse  then formulate conclusions your 
doing it the  opposite way because you were taught backwards   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That these no investigative judgmental assu=
mptions about something main stream science basically knows zero about Your=20=
putting the cart in front of the horse&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First&nbsp; talk to=
 the horse&nbsp; then formulate conclusions your doing it the&nbsp; opposite=
 way because you were taught backwards&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 09:21:55 2003
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Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 10:16:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Record week for LENR-CANR.org
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Frank wrote:

>>In honor of today's cold fusion session at the APS, I decided to advertise
>
>
>What can you tell us about this?

I can tell you it's over. See:

http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR03/baps/abs/S9530.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 09:24:40 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <22.37560a77.2b9b80ab aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 12:21:47 EST
Subject: Re: Large scale calorimetry
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, editor@infinite-energy.com, eric@voicenet.com
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     I have spoken  to Jed  Rothwell on the phone before and I think tom 
basically said it  But let me expand he would not know the difference between 
a can of corn and a can of peas           HE is moron  I think he made his 
money by inheriting it  unless he got real lucky   in the lottery 

  GENE your parade will be over with this year. You had the chance of a life 
time and totally blew it  but I did see  you told the guy at Thermo King we 
may have something    I suggest you squeeze Arthur Clarke as hard as you can 
before he drops you like a hot potato. You should have supported us     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 09:48:46 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1cd.4a08061.2b9b866f aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 12:46:23 EST
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC More mischief from Taubes
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In a message dated 3/7/03 12:52:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
         REPLY I smell Big Corp's here possibly attempting to keep the Status 
Que in place. Like Bob Park is 99% a contracted  Gun  Now I will conduct a 
search on him and see if the call is possibly  correct

> Jed Rothwell Posted:
> 
> >Gary Taubes, one of the archenemies of CF, has been given a $700,000 
> >advance on a book that many researchers consider a scientific 
> >atrocity. See:
> 
> makes you wonder if someone has an agenda doesn't it? Do you think 
> that they will get their money back?
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/7/03=
 12:52:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY I smell Big Corp's=
 here possibly attempting to keep the Status Que in place. Like Bob Park is=20=
99% a contracted&nbsp; Gun&nbsp; Now I will conduct a search on him and see=20=
if the call is possibly&nbsp; correct<BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jed Rothwell Posted:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;Gary Taubes, one of the archenemies of CF, has been given a $700,000 <BR=
>
&gt;advance on a book that many researchers consider a scientific <BR>
&gt;atrocity. See:<BR>
<BR>
makes you wonder if someone has an agenda doesn't it? Do you think <BR>
that they will get their money back?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 14:04:43 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Who's paying the bills?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:02:27 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <c2qk6v06ro3eqbojr7b79ugr8v774qon4p 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500ba8ecaef59ec [12.21.211.214]>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:43:03 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>Who's paying the bills?  

In that case the solution is simple. Stop paying the bill.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 14:15:26 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:07:25 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:51:26 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

Actually, I think such a resolution would be accepted by France, Germany, Russia, and China, and vetoed by the US. 


>The United States and Britain have endured the hardship of the containment
>of Iraq for over 10 years on behalf of the United Nations, Iraq's
>neighbors, and Iraq's own citizens.  US and British troops have been been
>in a continual state of war for that period, being fired upon on a regular
>basis by Iraq in breach of the truce with Iraq.  Due to their opposition to
>ending the war with Iraq by use of increased force, and the long overdue
>need for rotation of United Nations enforcement responsibilities, France,
>Germany, Russia, and China now assume the duties of the containment of
>Iraq.  Therefore, US and British troops will immediately leave the vicinity
>of Iraq, leaving to France, Germany, Russia, and China, and any allies they
>may acquire for the purpose, the responsibility for containment of Iraq and
>its weapons of mass destruction, and the suppression of Iraq's support for
>terrorists.  Due to their unwillingness to force a permanent end to the
>Iraq war, the states newly responsible for the containment of Iraq now also
>assume the responsibility for damages due to any use of Iraq's weapons of
>mass destruction, any losses suffered by countries due an attack by Iraq or
>terrorists supported by Iraq, and any consequential damages due to Iraq's
>military actions, such as any increase in the price of oil or the cost of
>support of any refugees resulting from the actions of Iraq.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 14:16:51 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Large scale calorimetry
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:33:13 -0500
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMKEDPDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Hey Horace.

>You need the power analyzer for the INPUT POWER.

Yup. But I was hoping to keep this simple. Given the
magnitude of the claimed effect, it ought to
become pretty apparent to the operator just by
using the "calibrated hand" on the single phase
wire leading to the input whether something
anomalous is going on. If the wire gets hot
on calibration and stays cool on running, and
the load is identical, it's worth following up on. 

I'm talking about a gross test that can be
easily done by the parties mentioned. Good
enough for the claim, and doable by Tom.

Obviously it would be pretty easy for any of
several of us here to make an accurate Pout/Pin
measurement without the heater using our scopes
and power analyzers. The offer has already
been extended, with a completely
predictable response. Further discussion of
the "technology" will also produce some very
predictable responses. What's the point? 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 16:42:28 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <d3.199623ac.2b9be72d aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:39:09 EST
Subject: Re: Large scale calorimetry All Right Nagel 
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In a message dated 3/8/03 5:16:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:
        SIMPLE Now Nagel is using the ""KISS ""   way  To illustrate Simple  
A Business inclined  AMISH   ENG> PHY. inventive type knowledgeable of Tesla  
used a clamp on Meter and took measurements at different points, total test 
time 10 minutes. Naturally  he was in total shock but he has no ego. So his 
base of knowledge not being able to explain what he is seeing does not bother 
him. Next step talk business This is the way that smart ones conduct 
themselves.  THAT is as simple as is gets 

       Scientific BUT more complex because of the high end Multi read at one 
time 1500 dollar meter that Infinite Energy brought. THAT delivers precise 
readouts. Which is also  a correct real world  testing protocol  but  
Infinite Energy is not Business inclined  INFINITE  ENERGY has established a 
scientific testing procedure protocol CORRECT ?

 SO WHY are you boring me with donkey thinking water heater ideas ???  This 
man makes sense Nagle is now on Mark.  By discarding water heater thinking. 
Further Discussion as Nagel indicates that would produce predictable 
conclusions is an assumption. That is not wise to make at this juncture.  
Because this is a totally different totally opposite world than science has 
any knowledge of as far as I know. 

 There is just no relation to current scientific understanding. Once science 
realizes that. Then there problems really begin. Because of there total lack 
of understanding that they though would never waver to any degree. And would 
stay within understandable limits of their current knowledge. 

Sorry main stream science S=T happens get use to it. Because this is only the 
first major change which will be the beginning of an entire new age of 
enlightenment.  Be there or be square. You have to admit 4 D mind games are 
fun when your the one causing them  to occur.  AS you see I give credit where 
credit is due. That is more than I can say for you people that only think 
what they know is correct.  

> Hey Horace.
> 
> >You need the power analyzer for the INPUT POWER.
> 
> Yup. But I was hoping to keep this simple. Given the
> magnitude of the claimed effect, it ought to
> become pretty apparent to the operator just by
> using the "calibrated hand" on the single phase
> wire leading to the input whether something
> anomalous is going on. If the wire gets hot
> on calibration and stays cool on running, and
> the load is identical, it's worth following up on. 
> 
> I'm talking about a gross test that can be
> easily done by the parties mentioned. Good
> enough for the claim, and doable by Tom.
> 
> Obviously it would be pretty easy for any of
> several of us here to make an accurate Pout/Pin
> measurement without the heater using our scopes
> and power analyzers. The offer has already
> been extended, with a completely
> predictable response. Further discussion of
> the "technology" will also produce some very
> predictable responses. What's the point? 
> 
> K.
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/8/03=
 5:16:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> SIMPLE Now Nagel is using the=20=
""KISS ""&nbsp;&nbsp; way&nbsp; To illustrate Simple&nbsp; A Business inclin=
ed&nbsp; AMISH&nbsp;&nbsp; ENG&gt; PHY. inventive type knowledgeable of Tesl=
a&nbsp; used a clamp on Meter and took measurements at different points, tot=
al test time 10 minutes. Naturally&nbsp; he was in total shock but he has no=
 ego. So his base of knowledge not being able to explain what he is seeing d=
oes not bother him. Next step talk business This is the way that smart ones=20=
conduct themselves.&nbsp; THAT is as simple as is gets <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Scientific BUT more complex because of=20=
the high end Multi read at one time 1500 dollar meter that Infinite Energy b=
rought. THAT delivers precise readouts. Which is also&nbsp; a correct real w=
orld&nbsp; testing protocol&nbsp; but&nbsp; Infinite Energy is not Business=20=
inclined&nbsp; INFINITE&nbsp; ENERGY has established a scientific testing pr=
ocedure protocol CORRECT ?<BR>
<BR>
 SO WHY are you boring me with donkey thinking water heater ideas ???&nbsp;=20=
This man makes sense Nagle is now on Mark.&nbsp; By discarding water heater=20=
thinking. Further Discussion as Nagel indicates that would produce predictab=
le conclusions is an assumption. That is not wise to make at this juncture.&=
nbsp; Because this is a totally different totally opposite world than scienc=
e has any knowledge of as far as I know. <BR>
<BR>
 There is just no relation to current scientific understanding. Once science=
 realizes that. Then there problems really begin. Because of there total lac=
k of understanding that they though would never waver to any degree. And wou=
ld stay within understandable limits of their current knowledge. <BR>
<BR>
Sorry main stream science S=3DT happens get use to it. Because this is only=20=
the first major change which will be the beginning of an entire new age of e=
nlightenment.&nbsp; Be there or be square. You have to admit 4 D mind games=20=
are fun when your the one causing them&nbsp; to occur.&nbsp; AS you see I gi=
ve credit where credit is due. That is more than I can say for you people th=
at only think what they know is correct.&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hey Horace.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;You need the power analyzer for the INPUT POWER.<BR>
<BR>
Yup. But I was hoping to keep this simple. Given the<BR>
magnitude of the claimed effect, it ought to<BR>
become pretty apparent to the operator just by<BR>
using the "calibrated hand" on the single phase<BR>
wire leading to the input whether something<BR>
anomalous is going on. If the wire gets hot<BR>
on calibration and stays cool on running, and<BR>
the load is identical, it's worth following up on. <BR>
<BR>
I'm talking about a gross test that can be<BR>
easily done by the parties mentioned. Good<BR>
enough for the claim, and doable by Tom.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously it would be pretty easy for any of<BR>
several of us here to make an accurate Pout/Pin<BR>
measurement without the heater using our scopes<BR>
and power analyzers. The offer has already<BR>
been extended, with a completely<BR>
predictable response. Further discussion of<BR>
the "technology" will also produce some very<BR>
predictable responses. What's the point? <BR>
<BR>
K.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 18:07:33 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <91.2b6febca.2b9bf903 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:55:15 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Bearden
To: michaelcamer yahoo.com, eric@voicenet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: mike ucsofa.com
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In a message dated 3/8/03 5:10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
michaelcamer yahoo.com writes:


> Bearden is a special case - he stands apart from everyone else in his
> attempts to extract money from the general public, and this is why he
> gets bashed a lot. If you make false claims, and use them to extract
> money from people, you're no different to Dennis Lee 
      REPLY    Mike is making a judgmental  assumption about false claims   
Unless he has first hand knowledge which 99% he probably does not . As ERIC 
Kreig has stated he has never actually checked out anything either so how how 
can be an expert on all the situations he comments about . This is typitical 
of skeptics who invariably jump to conclusions 98% of time. And make no 
attemts to investigate before they do  

 I spent 11 days with Dennis Lee  between here and in NJ  As a possible drive 
system supplier  I seen no false claims  CASE in Point  THat Sundance 
Generator was dev. by a EE,ME PE .  Not some Goof Ball Kook as main stream 
science attempts to lable such possible evolutionary new situations.  THat is 
the most EFF Generator that there  is on this planet. And with the right 
drive system could be a serious world class electricity conversion  and 
delivery system.  NOW that is called Product 

   and other s> cammers - snake oil salesmen, is the word for such people, I 
> think.
> If he has something in the MEG, he should be selling it as a
> commercial product. We do not need $100 books about the MEG. You
> don't sell theory books on over-unity, you ship product.
>    REPLY  I agree with this point about the books     In my case I even say 
> I'm a snake oil salemen per se That is Because of the new different 
> situations I present but the oil I sell is real.   Scientific types are not 
> generally Business types so they cannot relate to those types of situations 
> that Im can see from their actions 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/8/03=
 5:10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelcamer yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Bearden is a special case - he=20=
stands apart from everyone else in his<BR>
attempts to extract money from the general public, and this is why he<BR>
gets bashed a lot. If you make false claims, and use them to extract<BR>
money from people, you're no different to Dennis Lee </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" F=
ACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mike is making a j=
udgmental&nbsp; assumption about false claims&nbsp;&nbsp; Unless he has firs=
t hand knowledge which 99% he probably does not . As ERIC Kreig has stated h=
e has never actually checked out anything either so how how can be an expert=
 on all the situations he comments about . This is typitical of skeptics who=
 invariably jump to conclusions 98% of time. And make no attemts to investig=
ate before they do&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 I spent 11 days with Dennis Lee&nbsp; between here and in NJ&nbsp; As a pos=
sible drive system supplier&nbsp; I seen no false claims&nbsp; CASE in Point=
&nbsp; THat Sundance Generator was dev. by a EE,ME PE .&nbsp; Not some Goof=20=
Ball Kook as main stream science attempts to lable such possible evolutionar=
y new situations.&nbsp; THat is the most EFF Generator that there&nbsp; is o=
n this planet. And with the right drive system could be a serious world clas=
s electricity conversion&nbsp; and delivery system.&nbsp; NOW that is called=
 Product </B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; and other s<BLO=
CKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5p=
x; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">cammers - snake oil salesmen, is th=
e word for such people, I think.<BR>
If he has something in the MEG, he should be selling it as a<BR>
commercial product. We do not need $100 books about the MEG. You<BR>
don't sell theory books on over-unity, you ship product.<BR>
&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; I agree with this point about the books&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In my case I even say I'm a snake oil salemen per se That is=
 Because of the new different situations I present but the oil I sell is rea=
l.&nbsp;&nbsp; Scientific types are not generally Business types so they can=
not relate to those types of situations that Im can see from their actions <=
/B><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 19:04:59 2003
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <005001c2e331$970e61c0$0a016ea8 cpq> <a05111b0fba8dd5d53b60@[64.61.199.43]>
Subject: Re: The SonoFusor
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:34:47 -0800
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From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>

> This  reminds of the machine that Chris Arnold built. It was based on the 
> Farnsworth Fusor too. It was producing 10^5 neutrons, so I guess that 
> it is a candidate for E Bay, 



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewItem&category=413&item=3212783760

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Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:03:12 EST
Subject: Re: [free_energy] Re: 'Contaminated' materials are required for over-unityres...
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In a message dated 3/7/03 10:14:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, sbishopa sfu.ca 
writes:


> --- In free_energy yahoogroups.com, AL.F@s... wrote:
> > Tim why don't you get off of this Bearden kick of yours.  Just forget it
> > and do your own development and get on with life.  
> 
> I think he is doing his own development; a development of healthy
> skepticism on the basis of known and demonstrable fact:  something
> everyone needs a dose of.
>     REPLY  Demo is what we have done  
> >Leave Bearden alone,
> > if you don't like his work, than so what! 
> 
> If you don't like something, the usual sensible reaction is to make it
> known, not pretend it isn't there and hope it will just go away. 
> Bearden, by his own personal choice of promoting his "garbage physics"
> has left himself justifiably open to criticism; particularly when he
> stands to make a personal profit from his nonsense.  
>       REPLY   What makes real sense is checking before commenting about it. 
> I'm sorry there is all new physics  yours is obsolete. Ask Infinite Energy  
>   Just because you may not understand does not make it nosense  Your 
> physics may be nosense  and you not looking at that  Because in your 
> opinion only what you know is correct   Correct????  
> Would you also promote your "if you don't like it, then so what"
> argument if you knew someone was wilfully peddling a deadly poison as
> medicine to people?  "Hey, I don't like that he's selling poisons to
> people, but in the true politically correct way, 'so what!' <shrug>"
>     REPLY  what about the Mis info that we are appearently being fed by the 
> EDU. Ststem 
> Good to know where your sense of accountability and responsibility lies!
> 
> 
> You are wasting
> > your time bashing Tom Bearden, and you should be spending your time on
> > tangible constructive energy systems, instead of being negative toward
> > another researcher.  
> 
> He's not wasting his time critiquing Bearden. 
   REPLY  It is the method is the problem he is using a closed and narrow 
minded approach not an open minded one. which about the only one main stream 
science one uses    
 
 If Tim's efforts> 
> dissuade just one person in this group from buying (literally) into
> Bearden's claptrap nonsense, his time has been well-spent.  Before any
> rational person coughs up $100 US for his 1000 page door-stop book of
> nonsense, they should at least buy a standard freshman physics
> textbook and learn the basic physics *AND* the experimental evidence
> that backs up the basic physics.  In this way, they can arm themselves
> with the hard questions to ask of Bearden's garbage.  
>        REPLY   That makes sense attempt to have knowledge before 
> investigating What happens if his physics is correct and standard physics 
> is incorrect?    You never went that far to make that consideration. did 
> you????
> Despite all the prodigious writings of Bearden, be it in books, or his
> own website, has he written a *single* word of *any* experiment, with
> *accompanying data*, that has verified anything he has had to say? 
> Answer:  With the exception of the MEG, NO, he has not.  And the MEG,
> supposedly replicated by Naudin, as can be straightforwardly seen in
> my paper, is replete with errors and misunderstandings of basic
> physics on the part of Naudin and Bearden.
>        REPLY   There may be new physics  only a  complete fool would think 
> all the physics that is possible is known   
> > You are forgetting a very important issue here, all
> > of us free energy developers are (whether you like it are not), on the
> > same side of the fence in regards to energy.  
> 
> Whatever side of the fence Tim is on, the important issue here is that
> he is warning people not to waste their time going down Bearden's
> path.  That is a service to all communities present in this forum; be
> it the skeptics or the "free energy" aficionados.
>    REPLY   His problem is they are not going down his path and if they find 
> something on there path. He may not be able to explain it and may lose his 
> creditability which is all he is looking at. Not possibly attempt to 
> actually find out if there may be possibe positive changes  that could make 
> a difference and solve problems. THat would make to much sense.  
> That it to say, we are ALL
> > working toward a common goal for a better world, and ALL us inventors
> > alike do not need to bash one another, it is counter productive to what
> > we are working to achieve.  
> 
> See above:  if he prevents one person from wasting their time going
> down Bearden's dead-end path, he has done everyone in here a favour
> and service.
>   REPLY  WEll if it not shawn's path or Tims path there is no other path is 
> what is being said 
> > Tom Bearden is on our side when it comes to understanding alternate
> > energy systems, and I like what he has done for our line of work.
> 
> So your argument is simply one of:  if they're on "our side", that all
> that matters.  Whether they are dishonest, or without integrity, is
> secondary.  All that matters is that they be on your side of the fence.  
> 
> Bearden is wasting everyone's time, especially those who are of the
> persuasion to believe his "garbage physics" when they could instead be
> pursuing more promising avenues.
>         REPLY   Shawn is saying  only his physics are correct  THERE CANNOT 
> be any new situations that may prove new physics  IF new situations prove 
> new physics Shawn  and Tim  are in a real  Catch 22 then if they do not 
> understand them.  THat becomes a real Ego crushing situation then doesn't 
> it  Which is the prime issue it appears 
> Shawn
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/7/03=
 10:14:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, sbishopa sfu.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">--- In free_energy yahoogroups.=
com, AL.F s... wrote:<BR>
&gt; Tim why don't you get off of this Bearden kick of yours.&nbsp; Just for=
get it<BR>
&gt; and do your own development and get on with life.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I think he is doing his own development; a development of healthy<BR>
skepticism on the basis of known and demonstrable fact:&nbsp; something<BR>
everyone needs a dose of.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; Demo is what we have done&nbsp; </B><BR>
&gt;Leave Bearden alone,<BR>
&gt; if you don't like his work, than so what! <BR>
<BR>
If you don't like something, the usual sensible reaction is to make it<BR>
known, not pretend it isn't there and hope it will just go away. <BR>
Bearden, by his own personal choice of promoting his "garbage physics"<BR>
has left himself justifiably open to criticism; particularly when he<BR>
stands to make a personal profit from his nonsense.&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; What makes real sense is=
 checking before commenting about it. I'm sorry there is all new physics&nbs=
p; yours is obsolete. Ask Infinite Energy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Just because you=
 may not understand does not make it nosense&nbsp; Your physics may be nosen=
se&nbsp; and you not looking at that&nbsp; Because in your opinion only what=
 you know is correct&nbsp;&nbsp; Correct????&nbsp; </B><BR>
Would you also promote your "if you don't like it, then so what"<BR>
argument if you knew someone was wilfully peddling a deadly poison as<BR>
medicine to people?&nbsp; "Hey, I don't like that he's selling poisons to<BR=
>
people, but in the true politically correct way, 'so what!' &lt;shrug&gt;"<B=
R>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; what about the Mis info that we are appear=
ently being fed by the EDU. Ststem </B><BR>
Good to know where your sense of accountability and responsibility lies!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You are wasting<BR>
&gt; your time bashing Tom Bearden, and you should be spending your time on<=
BR>
&gt; tangible constructive energy systems, instead of being negative toward<=
BR>
&gt; another researcher.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
He's not wasting his time critiquing Bearden. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000=
" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"=
Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; It is the method is the problem he is using a cl=
osed and narrow minded approach not an open minded one. which about the only=
 one main stream science one uses&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> </B><BR>
 If Tim's efforts<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px s=
olid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
dissuade just one person in this group from buying (literally) into<BR>
Bearden's claptrap nonsense, his time has been well-spent.&nbsp; Before any<=
BR>
rational person coughs up $100 US for his 1000 page door-stop book of<BR>
nonsense, they should at least buy a standard freshman physics<BR>
textbook and learn the basic physics *AND* the experimental evidence<BR>
that backs up the basic physics.&nbsp; In this way, they can arm themselves<=
BR>
with the hard questions to ask of Bearden's garbage.&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; That makes sense a=
ttempt to have knowledge before investigating What happens if his physics is=
 correct and standard physics is incorrect?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You never went=
 that far to make that consideration. did you???</B>?<BR>
Despite all the prodigious writings of Bearden, be it in books, or his<BR>
own website, has he written a *single* word of *any* experiment, with<BR>
*accompanying data*, that has verified anything he has had to say? <BR>
Answer:&nbsp; With the exception of the MEG, NO, he has not.&nbsp; And the M=
EG,<BR>
supposedly replicated by Naudin, as can be straightforwardly seen in<BR>
my paper, is replete with errors and misunderstandings of basic<BR>
physics on the part of Naudin and Bearden.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; There may be new p=
hysics&nbsp; only a&nbsp; complete fool would think all the physics that is=20=
possible is known&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
&gt; You are forgetting a very important issue here, all<BR>
&gt; of us free energy developers are (whether you like it are not), on the<=
BR>
&gt; same side of the fence in regards to energy.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Whatever side of the fence Tim is on, the important issue here is that<BR>
he is warning people not to waste their time going down Bearden's<BR>
path.&nbsp; That is a service to all communities present in this forum; be<B=
R>
it the skeptics or the "free energy" aficionados.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; His problem is they are not going down his=
 path and if they find something on there path. He may not be able to explai=
n it and may lose his creditability which is all he is looking at. Not possi=
bly attempt to actually find out if there may be possibe positive changes&nb=
sp; that could make a difference and solve problems. THat would make to much=
 sense.&nbsp; </B><BR>
That it to say, we are ALL<BR>
&gt; working toward a common goal for a better world, and ALL us inventors<B=
R>
&gt; alike do not need to bash one another, it is counter productive to what=
<BR>
&gt; we are working to achieve.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
See above:&nbsp; if he prevents one person from wasting their time going<BR>
down Bearden's dead-end path, he has done everyone in here a favour<BR>
and service.<BR>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; WEll if it not shawn's path or Tims path there is no o=
ther path is what is being said </B><BR>
&gt; Tom Bearden is on our side when it comes to understanding alternate<BR>
&gt; energy systems, and I like what he has done for our line of work.<BR>
<BR>
So your argument is simply one of:&nbsp; if they're on "our side", that all<=
BR>
that matters.&nbsp; Whether they are dishonest, or without integrity, is<BR>
secondary.&nbsp; All that matters is that they be on your side of the fence.=
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Bearden is wasting everyone's time, especially those who are of the<BR>
persuasion to believe his "garbage physics" when they could instead be<BR>
pursuing more promising avenues.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; Shawn is say=
ing&nbsp; only his physics are correct&nbsp; THERE CANNOT be any new situati=
ons that may prove new physics&nbsp; IF new situations prove new physics Sha=
wn&nbsp; and Tim&nbsp; are in a real&nbsp; Catch 22 then if they do not unde=
rstand them.&nbsp; THat becomes a real Ego crushing situation then doesn't i=
t&nbsp; Which is the prime issue it appears <BR>
Shawn<BR>
</B><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 22:29:57 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 00:29:29 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Problems with Segway are a warning to o-u energy developers
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>Jed posted;



>This is regrettable. The Segway is potentially great product. It may 
>yet succeed, but the pr

I take it that this is the end of the project that was going to make 
Dean Kaman richer than Bill Gates? I can't help but snicker when I 
remember the first announcement of this, Kaman had those Internet 
millionaires over to look at it, and they made that pronouncement, my 
how the mighty have fallen.

Hum, I've always wanted to talk to Kaman about building an improved 
version of the Cook Drive. I assume that he still has plenty of 
money. I should go looking for his email address.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  8 22:34:55 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 00:29:29 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Jack Carey, some background information
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Fellow Vortexians:

I received the following email, most of which is here, various 
telephone numbers have been removed to protect the innocent.

>We have tried reasoning with Jack Carey for over a year. I'm
>the "Eric clone" that saw the RTPC at the Dennis Lee show
>back in August 11 2001. But didn't pay too much attention
>after 5 hours non stop nonsense from Dennis Lee. ;-)
>
>Besides there was a Kohler diesel generator out back
>behind the hotel conference room that powered all the equipment
>Dennis Lee demonstrated. I just used a clamp-on ammeter and
>measured 60 amps on all three phase wires to the Baldor 20 HP
>motor that drove the Sundance generator. By their own tests
>it was only 75% efficient but they claim the Baldor 20 HP three phase
>motor is only 75% efficient and their Sundance Genertor 100%. ;-)
>
>So one more claim that was made by Wayne Cochran for his
>Rotary Transformer Phase Converter was ignored.
>Here is what I sent to fjsparber earthlink.net  before about Jack
>for background information.
>
>I also got response back from Alexander Frolov, editor or
>www.faraday.ru magazine that published Jack's picture on
>cover. They never got any information worth publishing from Jack.
>Dr. Carlton Speck of Delphi Automotive never showed any sign
>he believed Jack either. Jack just sent copy of reply from Dr. Speck
>where he said, "please contact our other department with more
>details and patent information, etc." Basically saying, go bother
>someone else" is the way I interpreted it.
>********** ************
>On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:31:21 EST JCarey9622 aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 3/4/03 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
>
>Yes Jack. You have a huge initial Surge on the single phase line that the
>ammeter reading 9 amperes doesn't register and the 30 amp circuit breaker
>doesn't trip on (a 15 amp breaker trips), then  you have about 720
>SURGES/second that the ammeter doesn't register.  An ordinary scope
>looking at a 100 shunt will show these spikes of "over-unity power" that
>you are stealing from the power grid.  :-)
>
>Frederick  
>********** *************** ******************
>vcrepair juno.com
>Don't waste any more electrons trying to reason with Jack.
>Like Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain said: "Never argue with
>a fool, people might have trouble telling you apart." ;-)
>
>We have tried reason with Jack or John R Carey of
>Burton MI (next to Flint) for over a year. First off there is
>NO proof of any of his claims. So why bother trying to explain
>something that has no evidence it's true? Jack only allegedly
>quotes test results from Ken Rauen of Infinite Energy. But
>Infinite Energy never published a story about Confidential
>Technology or the Rotary Transformer Phase Converter
>that Jack "promotes".
>
>Ken Rauen of Infinite Energy magazine doesn't want to be
>bothered with Jack any more. He did say that the lights seemed
>to stay bright with all the equipment running, but Ken also
>wrote that he tested 208 VAC 2 KW on the 12 gauge
>wire in Wayne's garage using Amprobe Data Logger.
>So it's possible Wayne had 220 VAC on that 12/2 Romex Wire,
>even though that is not National  Electric Code approved, but neither
>is 30 amp "screw in circuit breaker" on 12 gauge wire, that is rated
>for 20 amps. So that would be 220 VAC at 30 amps = 6600 watts  possible,
>and the 30 amp breaker might not trip until more than 30 amps.
>
>The Russian magazine did put Jack's picture and his Mustang
>Saleen Cobra on cover last year for some reason, www.faraday.ru 
>But Alexander Frolov the publisher never got anything worthwhile
>to publish from Jack. 
>I assume you saw www.electrifyingtimes.com and searched for
>old article they published on "confidential Technology". That's
>the late Wayne Cochran in the picture next to air compressor.
>
>The other problem is that the alleged "inventor", Wayne Cochran,
>died of cancer in December 2002.
>Jack KNOWS NOTHING, so any technical questions are
>a waste of time. Jack has NOT been able to get one reliable
>local electrician to verify his claims. Nor has Jack allowed
>Mott Community College in Flint to test it, but he keeps saying
>they will "soon", since September 2002. Apparently now
>Marlene of "Confidential Technology" says Jack does NOT
>work for or represent the company and asked him to stop.
>
>In brief Jack claims: The RTPC will power 5 HP motor on
>air compressor and only use 400 watts. But Jack can't connect
>a generator to that 5 HP (3730 watts) motor and use the 3000
>watts of electrical power generated for other loads. Jack claims
>that 110VAC 9 amps can power the RTPC and 5 HP air compressor,
>2.5 HP drill press and arc welder putting out 100 amps all at the
>same time under full load. Now just the arc welder specifications
>for Lincoln 225 amp is 230 VAC and 50 amps input for full output
>and 70 VAC open circuit voltage. So figure 230 VAC 20 amps
>input required for 100 amps output. Amazing "transformer" that
>can double the voltage AND the current or four times the power!
>
>As you noted, perhaps the circuit can "fool" the KWhr meter but
>it is still "stealing" power and the power company does NOT have
>to give you power into any type of load, or at least they will make
>you PAY for it. ;-) Jack claimed the RTPC used to blow up electric
>utility company's power transformers. I'm sure they won't install
>a new one unless you paid for it then. Now sure transformers do
>fail on occasion but they would get suspicious if it happens twice.
>I used to work at shop repairing distribution transformers.
>
>Jack has never powered the RTPC and all that equipment using
>1000 watt gasoline engine powered generator, even though it
>should work if only 110 VAC 9 amps is needed. Nor has he
>run his home using only 400 watts input and 3000 watts output.
>
>Jack makes claims of all sorts of amazing devices, but has no
>evidence they work. Better to put on the "Jack Off" filter
>and block jcarey9622 aol.com   
>
>Maybe you could try calling his wife to see what she has to say.
>Here are some telephone numbers, etc. I have for Jack and
>Confidential Technology. Also it might be good to just forward
>all of Jack's rants to abuse aol.com . Jack has a history of
>bothering people and sending rants even after they ask him
>to stop. Jack has threatened me with sodomy and broken
>nose and "attitude adjustment" from "Vido".
>
>Jack says several companies have filed complaints against him,
>because: "he showed they their science was wrong". We figure
>it's because he is ranting fool who figures if you tire of arguing
>with him that he "won". ;-) Jack likes to "drop names" but
>never can get anyone to verify his claims. Jack has even sent
>us copies of auto e-mail replies from Toyota like: "I will be out of
>office"
>and thinks that shows they believe him. ;-)
>************
>Confidential Technologies in Flint, MI
>
>Jack Carey, jcarey9622 aol.com 810-618-9234
>claims that Wayne Cochran invented a
>Rotary Transformer Phase Converter that converts single
>phase power to three phase and will power 5 HP motor on air compressor
>while using only 400 watts input. Claims that 110 VAC 9 amps input power
>to RTPC powers 5 HP motor on air compressor, 2.5 HP motor on drill press
>and arc welder set for 100 amps all at full load.
>
>Wayne died in December 2002 but Jack claims that development
>is going on with other technicians.
>
>Direct Electronics 1815 Davidson Road, Flint, MI
>
>Jack Carey jcarey9622 aol.com  810-618-9234 (cellphone)
>John R Carey, Burton MI 48509 810-744-9587
>
>Technician from Confidential Tech 810-701-9432
>Didn't know details of RTPC in Wayne's garage.
>
>Marlene from Confidential Tech: marcraig mindspring.com
>Doesn't trust Jack Carey, I have not gotten response from her.
>
>
Yes, post it on the list. The list deserves to know some background on
Jack.

BUT the contact numbers, should NOT be posted publicly.
Jack's wife and others deserve privacy. Jack has volunteered
his cellphone number many times so that could probably be posted.

Be aware that he has caller ID. When I called him a few times, used
a calling card so he couldn't get my telephone number. Besides I
didn't want a big telephone bill for talking long distance 20 minutes.
;-) 

I still would like to get to Flint, MI someday to visit Jack.  But now
that
Wayne Cochran has died, I don't think Jack has anything to demonstrate.
I would have wanted to measure the voltage & current input to the RTPC in

Wayne's garage and tried changing the fuse. Something Jack or Wayne
never could do in over a year! But of course it was all just Jack's
ranting
etc. we never got any e-mail from Wayne. Jack probably never even
went over to Wayne's to ask him about it.

I did call Wayne once a year ago and chatted. He had some "strange" ideas
about how measurements have changed over the year so miles between
cities is different, etc. And how certain bacteria can change rusty iron
into copper. But he was more rational than Jack. :-) It's too bad he died
of cancer without any real proof of his concepts. :-(

As you know, Jack does NOT know anything and will not answer questions.
Jack insults the questioner and claims that all of today's science is
obsolete and
all the engineers will be out of a job soon and Jack will be rich. ;-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 00:04:54 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 02:04:41 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: IN the box Scientific Types  total ignorance
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>I  wrote:

And Horace Heffner responded:
>
>Unfortunately, you will need a good power analyser, like a Clarck-Hess, or
>a very good scope with power measurement capabilities.  If you can actually
>get good access to something to test you might be able to get some help
>along those lines from Earthtech.  Since Carey says he knows Puthoff and
>vice versa, maybe not.

I emailed Hal, and he ignored me, I'm afraid that this means that he 
knows Jack. I'll ask around and see if anyone has such a meter.

>
>Something that might be useful is to provide your own kwh meter and then
>measure kwh via Clark-Hess vs kwh on the meter. I have a meter and box I
>can mail you if you can get the rest of the stuff you need, though I can't
>vouch for the calibration on my kwh meter.  Earthtech has kwh meters too.
>You might be lucky enough to get Scott Little along with some meters and PC
>software etc.  He likes road trips I gather, but it may be hard to convince
>Earthtech to spend anything on this.


Thanks for the offer Horace. I'll check with my brother and see if he 
wants to cooperate. I'm afraid that if Jack thinks that I'm cynical, 
wait until he meets my brother. I figure that I can go buy three 250 
V 3 KW heater elements and wire them into a delta, then they would 
consume 1/2 of their rated power on a 240 V, this would be about 12 
amps three phase.  If I had them in a plastic container I could leave 
the wires exposed to the water. I'm going to have to think about were 
I can find suitable elements cheap. I figure that we put 5 gallons of 
water in the chamber and time how long it takes the machine to boil 
that water.

>
With regards to the U N, the U S Government is a major financial 
supporter. The bureaucracy of the U N is completely shameless. Can 
you imagine allowing countries like Sudan, Lybia. and Iraq to make 
decisions on human rights! That's the fox guarding the hen house.

Then Keith Nagel contributed;

Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess
if he's got a water heater. Just run the unknown
device into the heater and measure the steady state
temp. Now calibrate the heater with a variac and
60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.
That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would
be a differential device with two heaters.

Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks
simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it
can be devilishly subtle.

I've got the water heater Keith, I don't see any point in getting a 
picnic cooler, a five gallon pail will do. I figure that the above 
configuration should consume 1500 X 1.73 = 2595 Watts. or 10.3 A. 
2595 X 3157 =  8,192,415 BTU's per hour. 5 gallons, at 8.35 pounds 
per gallon = 41.75 pounds. Assuming that we start with 50 degree 
water, we will raise it 160 degrees. I don't know how many BTU's are 
required in order to do this.

The problem is the input energy.

Well, I just read through my mail.

That post on Chris Arnold's ebay listing was funny. I wish him the 
best, of course, but he's just too greedy for his own good.

Nothing new in the Jack Rants department, I can't wait to see what he 
has to say about the back ground information post.


Did any of you people listen to the Coast to Coast A M broadcast on 
Saturday night? The author talked about Islam, and why they are going 
to go to war with us. He is saying the same thing that I've been 
saying, which is understandable, because he is another Messianic. 
I've got to get his email address! I hit the C to C website but there 
was no contact info. I did find this link however.

http://www.8march2003.com/

Can any of you see a ship in those photographs?

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <9.c20461c.2b9c50b0 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 03:09:20 EST
Subject: Re: Jack Carey, some background information
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    The Russian's requested pictures and wanted tech. Info that we do not 
provide because demos can be provided. If you can accomplish dramatic demos. 
I'm sorry that is all that is necessary.  A tech paper was written but the 
Corp. lawyer advised that it not be sent.  

GM added or reassigned 1000 Eng. to work on alternative projects because of 
our meetings with them. 28 complaints were filed by major corp. from across 
the planet  with the state of Mich. because I made fools of them by using 
Delphi's mail to gain creditability. They took that mail real serious   

The guy in industrial  machine business that has sold units  was also at 
Dennis Lee's show. He  conducted follow up whereas Ted a VCR repair man who 
does not even own a car did not. He has spent enough time generating mail to 
be here 8 times to test. He is a moron call him and judge for yourself.

 He had meters and declined to test when offered the chance to test when he 
saw the demo. He attempts to be a world expert on something he knows zero 
about and is very combative. Which is plain to see. Please  I went so far as 
to offer to pick up Ted he declined. He only cares to play E mail games as 
Eric Kreig. That is all skeptics do. Ted even talked to Wayne. But I guess a 
50 MI bicycle ride is a long way. Main stream science is totally screwed if 
they cannot understand phase conversion             

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; The=
 Russian's requested pictures and wanted tech. Info that we do not provide b=
ecause demos can be provided. If you can accomplish dramatic demos. I'm sorr=
y that is all that is necessary.&nbsp; A tech paper was written but the Corp=
. lawyer advised that it not be sent.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
GM added or reassigned 1000 Eng. to work on alternative projects because of=20=
our meetings with them. 28 complaints were filed by major corp. from across=20=
the planet&nbsp; with the state of Mich. because I made fools of them by usi=
ng Delphi's mail to gain creditability. They took that mail real serious&nbs=
p;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The guy in industrial&nbsp; machine business that has sold units&nbsp; was a=
lso at Dennis Lee's show. He&nbsp; conducted follow up whereas Ted a VCR rep=
air man who does not even own a car did not. He has spent enough time genera=
ting mail to be here 8 times to test. He is a moron call him and judge for y=
ourself.<BR>
<BR>
 He had meters and declined to test when offered the chance to test when he=20=
saw the demo. He attempts to be a world expert on something he knows zero ab=
out and is very combative. Which is plain to see. Please&nbsp; I went so far=
 as to offer to pick up Ted he declined. He only cares to play E mail games=20=
as Eric Kreig. That is all skeptics do. Ted even talked to Wayne. But I gues=
s a 50 MI bicycle ride is a long way. Main stream science is totally screwed=
 if they cannot understand phase conversion&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 03:27:22 EST
Subject: Re: OUR Patent Advisor
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In a message dated 3/9/03 1:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> 
> >> THE firm the patent lawyer is with in Troy Mi  No. is       TOM I'm 
>> totally real.  Hello WHY  would I drive way out my way on a West coast 
>> trip to go to Minnapolis if  the tech. was not
> 
> 
> The disk means nothing to me. Warren said that there was nothing on it of 
> importance. Read my posts  on Vortex. 
> 
          REPLY   The disk has demos on it you cannot 99.9999999% explain  
Here  again your making a judgment call without  investigating  only total 
fool's do that   I will call warren I want a piece of him  Do you want to do 
a 3 way  sand lot player wanna be Tom ?   Stick your post where the sun does 
not shine 
     Lets do a 3 way with warren  or are you gutless   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 1:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>THE firm the patent lawyer i=
s with in Troy Mi&nbsp; No. is&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TOM I'm t=
otally real.&nbsp; Hello WHY&nbsp; would I drive way out my way on a West co=
ast trip to go to Minnapolis if&nbsp; the tech. was not</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>The disk means nothing to=
 me. Warren said that there was nothing on it of importance. Read my posts&n=
bsp; on Vortex. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #=
ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
The disk has demos on it you cannot 99.9999999% explain&nbsp; Here&nbsp; aga=
in your making a judgment call without&nbsp; investigating&nbsp; only total=20=
fool's do that&nbsp;&nbsp; I will call warren I want a piece of him&nbsp; Do=
 you want to do a 3 way&nbsp; sand lot player wanna be Tom ?&nbsp;&nbsp; Sti=
ck your post where the sun does not shine <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lets do a 3 way with warren&nbsp; or are you gutles=
s&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 03:18:35 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: OUR Patent Advisor
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1164920965==_ma============"
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>piece of him  Do you want to do a 3 way  sand lot player wanna be 
>Tom ?   Stick your post where the sun does not shine
>      Lets do a 3 way with warren  or are you gutless  

I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a 
test with the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you 
still up for it?
--============_-1164920965==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: OUR Patent Advisor</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"><b>piece of
him&nbsp; Do you want to do a 3 way&nbsp; sand lot player wanna be Tom
?&nbsp;&nbsp; Stick your post where the sun does not
shine</b></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1"><b>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lets do a 3 way with warren&nbsp;
or are you gutless&nbsp;&nbsp;</b></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is
a test with the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you
still up for it?</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1164920965==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 04:35:09 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <18b.17325c7b.2b9c8ea5 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 07:33:41 EST
Subject: Eric Your clown skeptic games are getting old PLEASE 
To: eric voicenet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/9/03 1:15:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com 
writes:


> Jack,    ERIC  Where has Ted been since Aug 2001?  Writing E mails. Along 
> with you  How far does live from here ? 50 MI  He has never made any 
> arrangements?     You know we have even sold units that operate peoples 
> machines GIVE me a break. Would you please. For once with your skeptic 
> games.   THE units we sold either work or they do not there are no in 
> betweens  . They work as advertised and your math will not explain them. 
> PERIOD 

  There is a CD disk I left at Thermo King with demos on it That Tom Meloy 
could obtain But now he has no interest in > but is talking about coming here. 
> I said get the demo First and view it. It is plain to see if factual his 
> math is not going to explain it either.  THEY always get real combative 
> when you tell them their math is not going help them to explain it. THEY do 
> not like being in situation where they are at a total loss as far as being 
> able to understand    
> 
>   Ted seems to be trying to get any evidence of your stuff working in
> good faith and just can't find any.
> 
> At least be honest in your slaming of him that he has tried to make 
> arrangements (like the below) to test your stuff.
> 
> Eric
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 1:15:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric voicenet.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> ERIC=
&nbsp; Where has Ted been since Aug 2001?&nbsp; Writing E mails. Along with=20=
you&nbsp; How far does live from here ? 50 MI&nbsp; He has never made any ar=
rangements?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You know we have even sold units that op=
erate peoples machines GIVE me a break. Would you please. For once with your=
 skeptic games.&nbsp;&nbsp; THE units we sold either work or they do not the=
re are no in betweens&nbsp; . They work as advertised and your math will not=
 explain them. PERIOD </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOC=
KQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; There is a CD disk I=20=
left at Thermo King with demos on it That Tom Meloy could obtain But now he=20=
has no interest in <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px=
 solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">but is talki=
ng about coming here. I said get the demo First and view it. It is plain to=20=
see if factual his math is not going to explain it either.&nbsp; THEY always=
 get real combative when you tell them their math is not going help them to=20=
explain it. THEY do not like being in situation where they are at a total lo=
ss as far as being able to understand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
&nbsp; Ted seems to be trying to get any evidence of your stuff working in<B=
R>
good faith and just can't find any.<BR>
<BR>
At least be honest in your slaming of him that he has tried to make <BR>
arrangements (like the below) to test your stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 05:28:00 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 06:24:43 -0600
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A gram (approximately one cubic centimeter)of Deuterated Wax CnD(2n+2) or
C(18-36D(38-74) contains at least 2 deuterons per carbon atom in the molecule, thus
about 4e21 deuterons per gram, compared to D2O which contains about 6e22
deuterons/gram.And melts at 110 - 145 degrees F or more, as compared to heavy ice that
melts at ~ 32 deg F.

http://www.i-sctc.com/paraffinwax.htm

http://www.iconisotopes.com/www_iconisotopes_com.html

This allows for the possibility of putting a thin coating of D-wax (possibly laced
with lithium or boron) on a metal
substrate (Pd?) and applying a high electric field intensity with a point electrode by
discharging a small high voltage capacitor or an automotive ignition coil (with energy
0.5 C*V^2 or 0.5 LI^2) through the thin D-wax dielectric film...?

A one picofarad capacitor that could be made using metal plates separated by mylar
film or such, would provide a 1.25 millijoule pulse at 50 kilovolts.

Regards,

Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 05:47:45 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <143.c2198da.2b9c9f60 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 08:45:04 EST
Subject: A simple situation turned into a Cluster you know what 
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In a message dated 3/9/03 3:05:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> I  wrote:
> 
> And Horace Heffner responded:
> >
> >Unfortunately, you will need a good power analyser, like a Clarck-Hess, or
> >a very good scope with power measurement capabilities.  If you can 
> actually
> >get good access to something to test you might be able to get some help
> >along those lines from Earthtech.  Since Carey says he knows Puthoff and
> >vice versa, maybe not.
> 
> I emailed Hal, and he ignored me, I'm afraid that this means that he 
> knows Jack. I'll ask around and see if anyone has such a meter.
>          REPLY I know Hal Fox a world renowned scientist personally because 
> of what I"M involved in and stayed at his house  in June on my west coast 
> trip when I stopped in Salt Lake.  I had been out there in may 2001 also to 
> see the Mr. Full of himself Paul Pantone who had called but he was not 
> worth my time  HAL understands  basically zero  BUT his associates  
> understand  the concepts because they are not held back by theory boat 
> anchors. 

    None of you that I can see can even grasp the concept. Because you have 
the same BOAT anchors around 
> as Hal Fox does.  THOSE boat anchors will get you every time Once they 
> become your roadblock  you never get around them because they were drilled 
> into you at an early age. WHAT dominates your life is what you learn when 
> your young because that is what impresses your the most. 

  I have to be able to understand human reaction behavior because the 
situations I deal with creates 
> reactions across a broad spectrum from total disbelief to  totally  
> understanding.  BY Playing what I now consider  your peoples weak ass games 
> after becoming bored with Eric Kreigs Group. Affords me the opportunity  to 
> practice and tune and develop  skills  for the big leagues that are coming 
> in the near future. You have to go through an internship no matter what you 
> want to attempt. 

  Like Bob Park is looking for a summer physics intern so he can make sure 
the schools are turning out clones 
> that can be controlled and will not rock his boat with new innovations that 
> would show him up. That is why we are evolving as civilization. and never 
> will until we teach total creative  thinking and free thought. I always 
> look for people that may be sharper than me so I can learn from them.

   I have been very disappointed with this group because I see almost zero 
innovative thinking but I expected 
> all I saw because of the experience with Eric Kreigs group . Science based 
> groups are 98% arrogant totally single minded  know it all's that cop an 
> attitude. They have about zero interest in learning anything. But they 
> offer me needed experience          
> >
> >Something that might be useful is to provide your own kwh meter and then
> >measure kwh via Clark-Hess vs kwh on the meter. I have a meter and box I
> >can mail you if you can get the rest of the stuff you need, though I can't
> >vouch for the calibration on my kwh meter.  Earthtech has kwh meters too.
> >You might be lucky enough to get Scott Little along with some meters and 
> PC
> >software etc.  He likes road trips I gather, but it may be hard to 
> convince
> >Earthtech to spend anything on this.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the offer Horace. I'll check with my brother and see if he 
> wants to cooperate. I'm afraid that if Jack thinks that I'm cynical, 
> wait until he meets my brother. I figure that I can go buy three 250 
> V 3 KW heater elements and wire them into a delta, then they would 
> consume 1/2 of their rated power on a 240 V, this would be about 12 
> amps three phase.  If I had them in a plastic container I could leave 
> the wires exposed to the water. I'm going to have to think about were 
> I can find suitable elements cheap. I figure that we put 5 gallons of 
> water in the chamber and time how long it takes the machine to boil 
> that water.
>                    REPLY this is totally moronic  GET THE DISK   from 
> Thermo King  HELLO your making a mountain out of a mole hill   NOW you know 
> why i call sci. types MORONS 
> >
> With regards to the U N, the U S Government is a major financial 
> supporter. The bureaucracy of the U N is completely shameless. Can 
> you imagine allowing countries like Sudan, Lybia. and Iraq to make 
> decisions on human rights! That's the fox guarding the hen house.
> 
> Then Keith Nagel contributed;
> 
> Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess
> if he's got a water heater. Just run the unknown
> device into the heater and measure the steady state
> temp. Now calibrate the heater with a variac and
> 60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.
> That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would
> be a differential device with two heaters.
> 
> Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks
> simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it
> can be devilishly subtle.
> 
> I've got the water heater Keith, I don't see any point in getting a 
> picnic cooler, a five gallon pail will do. I figure that the above 
> configuration should consume 1500 X 1.73 = 2595 Watts. or 10.3 A. 
> 2595 X 3157 =  8,192,415 BTU's per hour. 5 gallons, at 8.35 pounds 
> per gallon = 41.75 pounds. Assuming that we start with 50 degree 
> water, we will raise it 160 degrees. I don't know how many BTU's are 
> required in order to do this.
> 
> The problem is the input energy.
> 
> Well, I just read through my mail.
> 
> That post on Chris Arnold's ebay listing was funny. I wish him the 
> best, of course, but he's just too greedy for his own good.
> 
> Nothing new in the Jack Rants department, I can't wait to see what he 
> has to say about the back ground information post.
> 
> 
> Did any of you people listen to the Coast to Coast A M broadcast on 
> Saturday night? The author talked about Islam, and why they are going 
> to go to war with us. He is saying the same thing that I've been 
> saying, which is understandable, because he is another Messianic. 
> I've got to get his email address! I hit the C to C website but there 
> was no contact info. I did find this link however.
> 
> http://www.8march2003.com/
> 
> Can any of you see a ship in those photographs?
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 3:05:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I&nbsp; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
And Horace Heffner responded:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;Unfortunately, you will need a good power analyser, like a Clarck-Hess,=20=
or<BR>
&gt;a very good scope with power measurement capabilities.&nbsp; If you can=20=
actually<BR>
&gt;get good access to something to test you might be able to get some help<=
BR>
&gt;along those lines from Earthtech.&nbsp; Since Carey says he knows Puthof=
f and<BR>
&gt;vice versa, maybe not.<BR>
<BR>
I emailed Hal, and he ignored me, I'm afraid that this means that he <BR>
knows Jack. I'll ask around and see if anyone has such a meter.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY I know Hal Fox a w=
orld renowned scientist personally because of what I"M involved in and staye=
d at his house&nbsp; in June on my west coast trip when I stopped in Salt La=
ke.&nbsp; I had been out there in may 2001 also to see the Mr. Full of himse=
lf Paul Pantone who had called but he was not worth my time&nbsp; HAL unders=
tands&nbsp; basically zero&nbsp; BUT his associates&nbsp; understand&nbsp; t=
he concepts because they are not held back by theory boat anchors. </FONT><F=
ONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; None of you that I can see can even grasp the concept.=
 Because you have the same BOAT anchors around </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>as Hal Fox does.&nbsp; THOSE boat anchors will get you e=
very time Once they become your roadblock&nbsp; you never get around them be=
cause they were drilled into you at an early age. WHAT dominates your life i=
s what you learn when your young because that is what impresses your the mos=
t. </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp; <B>I have to be able=20=
to understand human reaction behavior because the situations I deal with cre=
ates </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZ=
E=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>reactions across a broad spectrum from total disbelief t=
o&nbsp; totally&nbsp; understanding.&nbsp; BY Playing what I now consider&nb=
sp; your peoples weak ass games after becoming bored with Eric Kreigs Group.=
 Affords me the opportunity&nbsp; to practice and tune and develop&nbsp; ski=
lls&nbsp; for the big leagues that are coming in the near future. You have t=
o go through an internship no matter what you want to attempt. </FONT><FONT=20=
 COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp; Like Bob Park is looking for a summer physics intern so he can mak=
e sure the schools are turning out clones </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" st=
yle=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Aria=
l" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>that can be controlled and will not rock his boat with n=
ew innovations that would show him up. That is why we are evolving as civili=
zation. and never will until we teach total creative&nbsp; thinking and free=
 thought. I always look for people that may be sharper than me so I can lear=
n from them.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff=
ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B=
><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<B>&nbsp;&nbsp; I have been very disappointed with this group because I see=20=
almost zero innovative thinking but I expected </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#00000=
0" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>all I saw because of the experience with Eric Kreigs gro=
up . Science based groups are 98% arrogant totally single minded&nbsp; know=20=
it all's that cop an attitude. They have about zero interest in learning any=
thing. But they offer me needed experience&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&gt;</B><BR>
&gt;Something that might be useful is to provide your own kwh meter and then=
<BR>
&gt;measure kwh via Clark-Hess vs kwh on the meter. I have a meter and box I=
<BR>
&gt;can mail you if you can get the rest of the stuff you need, though I can=
't<BR>
&gt;vouch for the calibration on my kwh meter.&nbsp; Earthtech has kwh meter=
s too.<BR>
&gt;You might be lucky enough to get Scott Little along with some meters and=
 PC<BR>
&gt;software etc.&nbsp; He likes road trips I gather, but it may be hard to=20=
convince<BR>
&gt;Earthtech to spend anything on this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the offer Horace. I'll check with my brother and see if he <BR>
wants to cooperate. I'm afraid that if Jack thinks that I'm cynical, <BR>
wait until he meets my brother. I figure that I can go buy three 250 <BR>
V 3 KW heater elements and wire them into a delta, then they would <BR>
consume 1/2 of their rated power on a 240 V, this would be about 12 <BR>
amps three phase.&nbsp; If I had them in a plastic container I could leave <=
BR>
the wires exposed to the water. I'm going to have to think about were <BR>
I can find suitable elements cheap. I figure that we put 5 gallons of <BR>
water in the chamber and time how long it takes the machine to boil <BR>
that water.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY this is totally moronic&nbsp; GET=20=
THE DISK&nbsp;&nbsp; from Thermo King&nbsp; HELLO your making a mountain out=
 of a mole hill&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW you know why i call sci. types MORONS <BR>
&gt;</B><BR>
With regards to the U N, the U S Government is a major financial <BR>
supporter. The bureaucracy of the U N is completely shameless. Can <BR>
you imagine allowing countries like Sudan, Lybia. and Iraq to make <BR>
decisions on human rights! That's the fox guarding the hen house.<BR>
<BR>
Then Keith Nagel contributed;<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there's no need for the Clark-Hess<BR>
if he's got a water heater. Just run the unknown<BR>
device into the heater and measure the steady state<BR>
temp. Now calibrate the heater with a variac and<BR>
60Hz AC to match the same steady state temp.<BR>
That'll get you in the ballpark. Much better would<BR>
be a differential device with two heaters.<BR>
<BR>
Have you ever done calorimetry, Tom? It looks<BR>
simple but as a few Vorts can tell you, it<BR>
can be devilishly subtle.<BR>
<BR>
I've got the water heater Keith, I don't see any point in getting a <BR>
picnic cooler, a five gallon pail will do. I figure that the above <BR>
configuration should consume 1500 X 1.73 =3D 2595 Watts. or 10.3 A. <BR>
2595 X 3157 =3D&nbsp; 8,192,415 BTU's per hour. 5 gallons, at 8.35 pounds <B=
R>
per gallon =3D 41.75 pounds. Assuming that we start with 50 degree <BR>
water, we will raise it 160 degrees. I don't know how many BTU's are <BR>
required in order to do this.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is the input energy.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I just read through my mail.<BR>
<BR>
That post on Chris Arnold's ebay listing was funny. I wish him the <BR>
best, of course, but he's just too greedy for his own good.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing new in the Jack Rants department, I can't wait to see what he <BR>
has to say about the back ground information post.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Did any of you people listen to the Coast to Coast A M broadcast on <BR>
Saturday night? The author talked about Islam, and why they are going <BR>
to go to war with us. He is saying the same thing that I've been <BR>
saying, which is understandable, because he is another Messianic. <BR>
I've got to get his email address! I hit the C to C website but there <BR>
was no contact info. I did find this link however.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.8march2003.com/<BR>
<BR>
Can any of you see a ship in those photographs?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <102.287a5815.2b9cb0d2 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 09:59:30 EST
Subject:    A possible scientific reason for war 
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In a message dated 3/9/03 3:05:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Did any of you people listen to the Coast to Coast A M broadcast on 
> Saturday night? The author talked about Islam, and why they are going 
> to go to war with us. He is saying the same thing that I've been 
> saying, which is understandable, because he is another Messianic. 
> I've got to get his email address! I hit the C to C website but there 
> was no contact info. I did find this link however

       REPLY  The planet is presently  losing power and power/frequency  
variations will cause changes in human behavior,  which are some times 
dramatic.  Human and animal behavior is effected also by changes in the moon  
which has been proven since the beginning of human history. There is even a 
word that describes those changes, it is lunacy. 

This phase the planet is experiencing may be a cycle situation and could 
possibly explain past wars or times of great uncertainly. There has to be a 
scientific explanation for human behavior patterns. Because we are electrical 
driven and that means we are effected by frequency variations. That is so far 
beyond 99% of you it is not even funny,  it is sad that current scientific 
understanding  is so ignorant. 

Because those long before us understood this planet and how it functioned. 
Case in point the American Indians Because they had no choice. Because there 
survivability depended on being able to understand the overall dynamics of 
the environment they had to adapt to. 

 Whereas modern society does not have to adapt to the environment as those 
long ago did. SO they have basicaly lost that ability to be able to achieve 
understanding in that realm. I cannot take credit for that theoretical 
assertion. 

That came from a fallen comrade who was at least 40 century's ahead of us 
all.  I'm just the town cryer so to speak.  Now my  assertion It is necessary 
to attempt to understand cause and effect. If you want to be able to 
understand the overall dynamics of what is required,  before the evolution of 
a civilization can occur.                

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 3:05:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Did any of you people listen to=
 the Coast to Coast A M broadcast on <BR>
Saturday night? The author talked about Islam, and why they are going <BR>
to go to war with us. He is saying the same thing that I've been <BR>
saying, which is understandable, because he is another Messianic. <BR>
I've got to get his email address! I hit the C to C website but there <BR>
was no contact info. I did find this link however</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; The planet is presently&=
nbsp; losing power and power/frequency&nbsp; variations will cause changes i=
n human behavior,&nbsp; which are some times dramatic.&nbsp; Human and anima=
l behavior is effected also by changes in the moon&nbsp; which has been prov=
en since the beginning of human history. There is even a word that describes=
 those changes, it is lunacy. <BR>
<BR>
This phase the planet is experiencing may be a cycle situation and could pos=
sibly explain past wars or times of great uncertainly. There has to be a sci=
entific explanation for human behavior patterns. Because we are electrical d=
riven and that means we are effected by frequency variations. That is so far=
 beyond 99% of you it is not even funny,&nbsp; it is sad that current scient=
ific understanding&nbsp; is so ignorant. <BR>
<BR>
Because those long before us understood this planet and how it functioned. C=
ase in point the American Indians Because they had no choice. Because there=20=
survivability depended on being able to understand the overall dynamics of t=
he environment they had to adapt to. <BR>
<BR>
 Whereas modern society does not have to adapt to the environment as those l=
ong ago did. SO they have basicaly lost that ability to be able to achieve u=
nderstanding in that realm. I cannot take credit for that theoretical assert=
ion. <BR>
<BR>
That came from a fallen comrade who was at least 40 century's ahead of us al=
l.&nbsp; I'm just the town cryer so to speak.&nbsp; Now my&nbsp; assertion I=
t is necessary to attempt to understand cause and effect. If you want to be=20=
able to understand the overall dynamics of what is required,&nbsp; before th=
e evolution of a civilization can occur.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 07:20:03 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 06:19:52 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: IN the box Scientific Types  total ignorance
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At 2:04 AM 3/9/3, thomas malloy wrote:
>>I  wrote:
>
>And Horace Heffner responded:
>>
>>Unfortunately, you will need a good power analyser, like a Clarck-Hess, or
>>a very good scope with power measurement capabilities.  If you can actually
>>get good access to something to test you might be able to get some help
>>along those lines from Earthtech.  Since Carey says he knows Puthoff and
>>vice versa, maybe not.
>
>I emailed Hal, and he ignored me, I'm afraid that this means that he
>knows Jack. I'll ask around and see if anyone has such a meter.


There is probaly no point in this effort.  If Carey himself does not agree
that the device should heat water significantly, then the test appears to
be useless.  It neither confirms nor refutes anything.  Further, if the
device can't even heat water to any any unusual amount then where is the
commercial value?  Running a big motor at idle using much less than rated
power is no big deal.  Running a lot of current throug a low resistance arc
is no big deal because the voltage drop across the arc is nominal, thus the
energy requirement is small.  You will likely need a solid experimental
plan to which Carey agrees in order to achieve anything meaningful.  You
have no meaningful experiment to confirm, no meaningful data to replicate.

I am going to withdraw from futher discussion of Carey's stuff out of
consideration for the rest of the list readers, most of whom are probably
livid that any further such discussion is taking place.  It is probably
best that I now unsubscribe for a while to avoid further temptation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <153.1cd67b7a.2b9cba99 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:41:13 EST
Subject: My bottom line 
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In a message dated 3/9/03 4:19:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> 
> >> piece of him  Do you want to do a 3 way  sand lot player wanna be Tom ?   
>> Stick your post where the sun does not shine
> 
> >>      Lets do a 3 way with warren  or are you gutless  
> 
> 
> I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a test 
> with the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you still up for 
> it?
> 
         REPLY  AS usual you are coming to a conclusion without conducting an 
investigation which is typitical of  know it all arrogant scientific types.   
 Now here is my bottom line MR know it all with an attitude   Warren is a 
piss ant M.E.  for a minor corp. as were the other three ENG's at his Co.  
And your appearently  a piss ant electrician.  I have had experience with the 
Chief scientist's of world wide in scope Corp's   

GET the CD  and show it at your Tesla Meeting first and I will go through the 
operational dynamics of the demos portrayed on that CD  with them.   On a 
speaker phone at that point we will discuss testing protocol's  with there 
imput considered also.     NOW that makes simple deductive reasoning plain 
common sense whereas you have not made any sense up to now 

 I'm tired of your and Eric Kreig's ignorant of new situations complicated 
cluster you know what testing ideas,  namely the water hearter. Which is 
typitical of the piss poor ass backwards  cloned Eng. thinking in this 
country. That was thought up by some Ph.D that probably has basically zero 
knowledge of the operational aspects of A/C current.  

 Infinite Energy Mag  a well known international scientific publication has 
all ready  established testing procedure protocol's  using real world 
situations. You apppear to be  a no body compared to them that has not 
impressed me once    

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 4:19:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>piece of him&nbsp; Do you wa=
nt to do a 3 way&nbsp; sand lot player wanna be Tom ?&nbsp;&nbsp; Stick your=
 post where the sun does not shine</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Let=
s do a 3 way with warren&nbsp; or are you gutless&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a test with=
 the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you still up for it?<BR=
>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; AS usual you=
 are coming to a conclusion without conducting an investigation which is typ=
itical of&nbsp; know it all arrogant scientific types.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now=
 here is my bottom line MR know it all with an attitude&nbsp;&nbsp; Warren i=
s a piss ant M.E.&nbsp; for a minor corp. as were the other three ENG's at h=
is Co.&nbsp; And your appearently&nbsp; a piss ant electrician.&nbsp; I have=
 had experience with the Chief scientist's of world wide in scope Corp's&nbs=
p;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
GET the CD&nbsp; and show it at your Tesla Meeting first and I will go throu=
gh the operational dynamics of the demos portrayed on that CD&nbsp; with the=
m.&nbsp;&nbsp; On a speaker phone at that point we will discuss testing prot=
ocol's&nbsp; with there imput considered also.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NOW t=
hat makes simple deductive reasoning plain common sense whereas you have not=
 made any sense up to now <BR>
<BR>
 I'm tired of your and Eric Kreig's ignorant of new situations complicated c=
luster you know what testing ideas,&nbsp; namely the water hearter. Which is=
 typitical of the piss poor ass backwards&nbsp; cloned Eng. thinking in this=
 country. That was thought up by some Ph.D that probably has basically zero=20=
knowledge of the operational aspects of A/C current.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Infinite Energy Mag&nbsp; a well known international scientific publication=
 has all ready&nbsp; established testing procedure protocol's&nbsp; using re=
al world situations. You apppear to be&nbsp; a no body compared to them that=
 has not impressed me once&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <50.19578446.2b9cc9a9 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:45:29 EST
Subject: Re: OUR Patent Advisor
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In a message dated 3/9/03 4:19:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

        REPLY   I have purposed what I feel is a deductive reasoning driven 
common sense testing protocol procedure. That would possibly provide a bases 
of  understanding  of  new evolutionary concept's,   prior to a purposed on 
site investigation of stated claims  
> 
> >> piece of him  Do you want to do a 3 way  sand lot player wanna be Tom ?   
>> Stick your post where the sun does not shine
> 
> >>      Lets do a 3 way with warren  or are you gutless  
> 
> 
> I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a test 
> with the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you still up for 
> it?
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 4:19:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp; I have purpo=
sed what I feel is a deductive reasoning driven common sense testing protoco=
l procedure. That would possibly provide a bases of&nbsp; understanding&nbsp=
; of&nbsp; new evolutionary concept's,&nbsp;&nbsp; prior to a purposed on si=
te investigation of stated claims&nbsp; <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>piece of him&nbsp; Do you wa=
nt to do a 3 way&nbsp; sand lot player wanna be Tom ?&nbsp;&nbsp; Stick your=
 post where the sun does not shine</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Let=
s do a 3 way with warren&nbsp; or are you gutless&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a test with=
 the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you still up for it?<BR=
>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <ea.36819e29.2b9cd4df aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:33:19 EST
Subject: Re: Talked to "technician" from Confidential Technology today.
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In a message dated 3/9/03 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
vcrepair juno.com writes:


> JACK REPLY:  He or I never worked for Conf. Tech. We were associated with
> them. 
> He has seen Infinite energy conducting testing 
> 
> vcrepair juno.com writes:  He did say he saw the RTPC in Wayne's garage
> running the air 
> compressor, drill press and Lincoln arc welder set for 100 amps, all
> under load at
> same time and the lights didn't dim. But he didn't know if the 12/2 house
> wire
> in garage was connected as 110 VAC or 220 VAC. 
>   REPLY  That is not possible according to taught theory using 220 V or 110 
> V 
> JACK REPLY:  Ted must be Mis Understanding this point    
> ************* *****************
> vcrepair juno.com : He didn't seem to know much about electrical testing.
>   REPLY that is you attempting disinfomation as you have for 18 months  
> Because if this is factual you know basically zero about A/C current.  That 
> is the hidden issue here.   Even he he lacked testing knowledge as long as 
> the technology can be reproduced is all that matters   And your glaring 
> intention appears to be only playing snide remark E mail games as Eric 
> Kreig does 
> Why wouldn't he want to do some testing on some amazing device? 
  REPLY  He has seen testing conducted for 17 years 

> Exactly why has NOBODY been able to give us test results for RTPC?
> Jack doesn't understand 240/120 center tapped transformer wiring
> used in most homes. So we don't care what you think about it. :-) 

>   REPLY  It has been stated 100 times to you but it appears your to dense to 
> understand. That all that is given out is what it draws and results.  
> Because demos can be provided.  In order to keep it simple.   Even If the 
> Tech. center tested that is all they are allowed to give out also per the 
> no liability agreement that has been tended to them 

   The question is why didn't you test when you had the chance?? MORON I'M 
not required to know tech. info my role > that you apparently cannot grasp is 
> the promoting dynamic. As long if that promoting can be backed up with 
> visual demos.  I'm not required to know the tech. dynamics PERIOD Which is 
> something you cannot apparently grasp either 

> Jack has NOT demonstrated anything convincing to experts yet!
> You mention so many names that allegedly have seen the RTPC working 
> and believe your claims, but we have never been able to contact anyone 
> who believes you. The point is that it seems I am the only one who could 
> test your unit and verify your claims. But you wouldn't want someone to 
> actually test it and give out test results. ;-)
> 
>    REPLY  WE have A National Mag. on tape testing THey are experts   AND in 
the first place you have no credentials to verify anything. SO any discussion 
beyond that is a moot point.  At least Tom in Minn is a certified electrican  
Your a VCR' repair man.  In my book your a zero. THat thinks he is a world 
expert 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, vcrepair juno.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">JACK REPLY:&nbsp; He or I never=
 worked for Conf. Tech. We were associated with<BR>
them. <BR>
He has seen Infinite energy conducting testing <BR>
<BR>
vcrepair juno.com writes:&nbsp; He did say he saw the RTPC in Wayne's garage=
<BR>
running the air <BR>
compressor, drill press and Lincoln arc welder set for 100 amps, all<BR>
under load at<BR>
same time and the lights didn't dim. But he didn't know if the 12/2 house<BR=
>
wire<BR>
in garage was connected as 110 VAC or 220 VAC. <BR>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; That is not possible according to taught theory using=20=
220 V or 110 V </B><BR>
JACK REPLY:&nbsp; Ted must be Mis Understanding this point&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <BR>
************* *****************<BR>
vcrepair juno.com : He didn't seem to know much about electrical testing.<BR=
>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY that is you attempting disinfomation as you have for 18 mont=
hs&nbsp; Because if this is factual you know basically zero about A/C curren=
t.&nbsp; That is the hidden issue here.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even he he lacked testin=
g knowledge as long as the technology can be reproduced is all that matters&=
nbsp;&nbsp; And your glaring intention appears to be only playing snide rema=
rk E mail games as Eric Kreig does </B><BR>
Why wouldn't he want to do some testing on some amazing device? </FONT><FONT=
  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"S=
ANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; He has seen testing conducted for 17 years </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Exactly why has NOBODY been abl=
e to give us test results for RTPC?<BR>
Jack doesn't understand 240/120 center tapped transformer wiring<BR>
used in most homes. So we don't care what you think about it. :-) </FONT><FO=
NT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; It has been stated 100 times to you b=
ut it appears your to dense to understand. That all that is given out is wha=
t it draws and results.&nbsp; Because demos can be provided.&nbsp; In order=20=
to keep it simple.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even If the Tech. center tested that is all t=
hey are allowed to give out also per the no liability agreement that has bee=
n tended to them </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOT=
E><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp; The question is=
 why didn't you test when you had the chance?? MORON I'M not required to kno=
w tech. info my role <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2=
px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">that you a=
pparently cannot grasp is the promoting dynamic. As long if that promoting c=
an be backed up with visual demos.&nbsp; I'm not required to know the tech.=20=
dynamics PERIOD Which is something you cannot apparently grasp either </FONT=
><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMIL=
Y=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">Jack has NOT demonstrated anything convincing to experts ye=
t!<BR>
You mention so many names that allegedly have seen the RTPC working <BR>
and believe your claims, but we have never been able to contact anyone <BR>
who believes you. The point is that it seems I am the only one who could <BR=
>
test your unit and verify your claims. But you wouldn't want someone to <BR>
actually test it and give out test results. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; WE have A National Mag. on tape tes=
ting THey are experts&nbsp;&nbsp; AND in the first place you have no credent=
ials to verify anything. SO any discussion beyond that is a moot point.&nbsp=
; At least Tom in Minn is a certified electrican&nbsp; Your a VCR' repair ma=
n.&nbsp; In my book your a zero. THat thinks he is a world expert <BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 10:15:34 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <1d0.4b1b4a9.2b9cde3f aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:13:19 EST
Subject: Someone send Horace a smart Pill He is taking the dumb ones again 
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In a message dated 3/9/03 10:20:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> There is probaly no point in this effort.  If Carey himself does not agree
> that the device should heat water significantly, then the test appears to
> be useless.  It neither confirms nor refutes anything. 
  REPLY  THIS is no investigation judgement call from someone who appears to 
have no operational knowledge of A/C current but thinks he is an expert on 
the subject. AS 99.9999% of the theory only types do. 
 Further, if the
> device can't even heat water to any any unusual amount then where is the
> commercial value? 
  REPLY  WELL lets see it can operate three phase equipment using far less 
power. You could have the unit operate a generator that would in turn cause 
your house to use far less power. You could create an industrial 
manufacturing complex only using single phase power any where on the planet  

PLUS save several thousand dollars that you would have to pay the power co to 
bring it in if was even avaliable   GEEEEEE now we have an advanced  new 
world that has never existed in History   Horace THAT is the most ignorant of 
new possible situations moronic totally narrow and closed minded no 
investigating statement I have ever heard in my life. He calls him EDU. At 
what picking his nose  

 It is very clear your covering up your total lack of knowledge regarding the 
dissused subject matter and your inability to even grasp the concept.  If 
your any indication of current scientific understanding on this planet It is 
sad our science has became so ignorant  

 Running a big motor at idle using much less than rated> 
> power is no big deal.  Running a lot of current throug a low resistance arc
> is no big deal because the voltage drop across the arc is nominal, thus the
> energy requirement is small.  You will likely need a solid experimental
> plan to which Carey agrees in order to achieve anything meaningful.  You
> have no meaningful experiment to confirm, no meaningful data to replicate.
> 
> I am going to withdraw from futher discussion of Carey's stuff out of
> consideration for the rest of the list readers, most of whom are probably
> livid that any further such discussion is taking place.  It is probably
> best that I now unsubscribe for a while to avoid further temptation.

>                   REPLY  thank you  because i have never seen anyone as 
> ignorant as you Plus you make statements then you go back to hiding behind 
> your computer and do not have to defend those statements because you appear 
> to be gutless and all mouth no action .  THe problem is they appear not to 
> be able to understand the advanced evolutionary scientific dynamics of the 
> discussion as you Horace also appear you cannot either  
> Regards,
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 10:20:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">There is probaly no point in th=
is effort.&nbsp; If Carey himself does not agree<BR>
that the device should heat water significantly, then the test appears to<BR=
>
be useless.&nbsp; It neither confirms nor refutes anything. </FONT><FONT  CO=
LOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; THIS is no investigation judgement call from someone w=
ho appears to have no operational knowledge of A/C current but thinks he is=20=
an expert on the subject. AS 99.9999% of the theory only types do. </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> Further, if the<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">device can't even heat water to=
 any any unusual amount then where is the<BR>
commercial value? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUO=
TE><BR>
&nbsp; <B>REPLY&nbsp; WELL lets see it can operate three phase equipment usi=
ng far less power. You could have the unit operate a generator that would in=
 turn cause your house to use far less power. You could create an industrial=
 manufacturing complex only using single phase power any where on the planet=
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
PLUS save several thousand dollars that you would have to pay the power co t=
o bring it in if was even avaliable&nbsp;&nbsp; GEEEEEE now we have an advan=
ced&nbsp; new world that has never existed in History&nbsp;&nbsp; Horace THA=
T is the most ignorant of new possible situations moronic totally narrow and=
 closed minded no investigating statement I have ever heard in my life. He c=
alls him EDU. At what picking his nose&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 It is very clear your covering up your total lack of knowledge regarding th=
e dissused subject matter and your inability to even grasp the concept.&nbsp=
; If your any indication of current scientific understanding on this planet=20=
It is sad our science has became so ignorant&nbsp; <BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> Running a big motor at idle=
 using much less than rated<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #00=
00ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
power is no big deal.&nbsp; Running a lot of current throug a low resistance=
 arc<BR>
is no big deal because the voltage drop across the arc is nominal, thus the<=
BR>
energy requirement is small.&nbsp; You will likely need a solid experimental=
<BR>
plan to which Carey agrees in order to achieve anything meaningful.&nbsp; Yo=
u<BR>
have no meaningful experiment to confirm, no meaningful data to replicate.<B=
R>
<BR>
I am going to withdraw from futher discussion of Carey's stuff out of<BR>
consideration for the rest of the list readers, most of whom are probably<BR=
>
livid that any further such discussion is taking place.&nbsp; It is probably=
<BR>
best that I now unsubscribe for a while to avoid further temptation.</FONT><=
FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> REPLY&nbsp; thank you&nbsp; b=
ecause i have never seen anyone as ignorant as you Plus you make statements=20=
then you go back to hiding behind your computer and do not have to defend th=
ose statements because you appear to be gutless and all mouth no action .&nb=
sp; THe problem is they appear not to be able to understand the advanced evo=
lutionary scientific dynamics of the discussion as you Horace also appear yo=
u cannot either&nbsp; <BR>
Regards,</B><BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 10:36:10 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <191.1681d5c0.2b9ce2f4 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:33:24 EST
Subject: Re: My bottom line Get around this one ted. 
To: vcrepair juno.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/9/03 11:58:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
vcrepair juno.com writes:


> On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:41:13 EST <A HREF="mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com">JCarey9622@aol.com</A> writes:
>  
> temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
> I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a test 
> with the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you still up for 
> it?
>  
>  CAREY REPLY : AS usual you are coming to a conclusion without conducting 
> an investigation which is typitical of  know it all arrogant scientific 
> types.    Now here is my bottom line MR know it all with an attitude   
> Warren is a piss ant M.E.  for a minor corp. as were the other three ENG's 
> at his Co.  And your appearently  a piss ant electrician.  I have had 
> experience with the Chief scientist's of world wide in scope Corp's   
> ************ ***************** **************** 
> <A HREF="mailto:vcrepair juno.com">vcrepair@juno.com</A>
> In case you haven't noticed Jack, you have NO technical knowledge
     REPLY  I do not claim to know tech knowledge but  appearently i know 
more new evolutionary concept knowledge than the Chief Scientist of the 
Delphi/GM corp  After all he sent an Email saying  he did not understand.  

Which was the result of meetings we had with him  and then he said   He still 
did not understand which was after the meetings  Those are his words not mine 
 If he cannot understand the question is who can ??????

      TeD you or no one else that I know of can get around that one  Your 
stupid totally ignorant of new situations E mails games are getting real old 
after 18 months 

> nor have you ever shown anybody who knows anything about 
> electricity something that proves your claims for more efficiency. 
> All we have seen in past year is JACK'S CLAIMS! NOBODY else 
> has verified your claims. Jack "drops names" of many experts that 
> allegedly believe the Rotary Transformer Phase Converter  is "more 
> efficient" 
> but NONE of them have written anything to verify that.  
>  
> When someone asks reasonable technical questions that any legitimate
> company or technician who has tested the Rotary Transformer Phase
> Converter should know, Jack just rants and raves that all of today's 
> physics is obsolete and the engineers will soon be out of their jobs, etc. 
> But you do NOT know anything about today's physics. ;-) 
>  
> Jack does NOT understand the concept of true Root Mean Square 
> measurement of AC power or how temperature rise in water can be 
> used to find the total power. Yes, with linear non reactive loads
> and sine wave voltage and current, power is easy to measure with regular
> average responding meters. BUT when non linear loads and non sine wave
> power is measured, then average responding meters have errors. 
> <A HREF="http://www.tinaja.com/">http://www.tinaja.com</A>  file MUSE113.pdf, Muse125.pdf for more information. 
>  
> In past year, Jack has NOT even changed the "30 amp screw in circuit 
> breaker"
> to 15 amp slow blow/time delay fuse, even though he claims only 9 amps
> is needed at full load of 5 HP air compressor, 2.5 HP drill press and
> arc welders set for 100 amps output; all at full load. Slow blow fuse
> is made for surges, or use a 20 amp slow blow fuse if you want. Nor has
> Jack ever actually tested the power himself or gotten anyone else to test 
> it.
> Just "quotes" alleged test results from Ken Rauen of Infinite Energy 
> magazine. 
> BUT they never published anything verifying your claims Jack. 
>  
> Ken Rauen also wrote that he measured 208 VAC and 2 KW input 
> power on that 12 gauge 2 conductor wire with the Amprobe Data Logger
> and he might have made some wrong connections to different phases
> for the voltage and current sense leads on the motor. But never got a 
> chance 
> to check the connections since Jack and Wayne talked so much. 
>  
> Jack can't connect a generator to the "5 HP" motor and use the 3000
> watts of electrical power for other things, while using only 400 watts 
> input 
> power he claims. Nor can Jack power the RTPC and all that equipment from
> small 1000 watt gasoline engine powered generator, even though only
> 110 VAC 9 amps input (1000 watts) is allegedly needed. 
>  
> Jack also says that several RTPC have been sold in past years. Now 
> why can't Jack find one of those units and get some independent 
> verification
> of the "extra efficiency"? 
>  
> Waren Oppenhiem of ThermoKing wasn't impressed by anything Jack
> demonstrated either. 
>  
> BOTTOM LINE JACK: Demonstrate something to experts that will 
> prove your claims of "more efficiency", then investments will be easy 
> to find, etc. and production of RTPC and other devices that will 
> "save the world" can begin soon. 
>  
> Why can't that $350 million in business investments you allegedly have be 
> used to get started Jack? Or do you still need $150 million more to get 
> total 
> of $500 million before you can start? Just like Dennis Lee waiting to
> get 1.6 million witnesses before he can demonstrate "Free Electricity 
> Machine". ;-) 
> Jack claims Dennis Lee supposed to use the RTPC to power his Sundance
> generator, but Dennis Lee denied that and says he will use Hummingbird
> motor to power the Sundance generator. Dennis Lee also thought Jack 
> was "out there" and didn't really like Jack, but thought Wayne was OK.
> Check out the March 29 2002 or maybe 2001 radio show Dennis Lee
> did on <A HREF="http://www.soundwaves2000.com/jgs/">www.soundwaves2000.com/jgs/</A>   I asked Dennis about Jack
> and "Confidential Technology" 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 11:58:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, vcrepair juno.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:41:13 EST=
 <A HREF=3D"mailto:JCarey9622 aol.com">JCarey9622@aol.com</A> writes:<BR>
 <BR>
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"><BR>
I've already told you what Warren had to say. The bottom line is a test with=
 the Clark-Hess instrument and the water heater. Are you still up for it?<BR=
>
 <BR>
 CAREY REPLY : AS usual you are coming to a conclusion without conducting an=
 investigation which is typitical of&nbsp; know it all arrogant scientific t=
ypes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now here is my bottom line MR know it all with an at=
titude&nbsp;&nbsp; Warren is a piss ant M.E.&nbsp; for a minor corp. as were=
 the other three ENG's at his Co.&nbsp; And your appearently&nbsp; a piss an=
t electrician.&nbsp; I have had experience with the Chief scientist's of wor=
ld wide in scope Corp's&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
************ ***************** **************** <BR>
<A HREF=3D"mailto:vcrepair juno.com">vcrepair@juno.com</A><BR>
In case you haven't noticed Jack, you have NO technical knowledge</FONT><FON=
T  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; I do not claim to know tech knowledg=
e but&nbsp; appearently i know more new evolutionary concept knowledge than=20=
the Chief Scientist of the Delphi/GM corp&nbsp; After all he sent an Email s=
aying&nbsp; he did not understand.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Which was the result of meetings we had with him&nbsp; and then he said&nbsp=
;&nbsp; He still did not understand which was after the meetings&nbsp; Those=
 are his words not mine&nbsp; If he cannot understand the question is who ca=
n ??????<BR>
<BR>
</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>TeD you or no one else that I know of=20=
can get around that one&nbsp; Your stupid totally ignorant of new situations=
 E mails games are getting real old after 18 months </B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">nor have you ever shown anybody=
 who knows anything about <BR>
electricity something that proves your claims for more efficiency. <BR>
All we have seen in past year is JACK'S CLAIMS! NOBODY else <BR>
has verified your claims. Jack "drops names" of many experts that <BR>
allegedly believe the Rotary Transformer Phase Converter&nbsp; is "more effi=
cient" <BR>
but NONE of them have written anything to verify that.&nbsp; <BR>
 <BR>
When someone asks reasonable technical questions that any legitimate<BR>
company or technician who has tested the Rotary Transformer Phase<BR>
Converter should know, Jack just rants and raves that all of today's <BR>
physics is obsolete and the engineers will soon be out of their jobs, etc. <=
BR>
But you do NOT know anything about today's physics. ;-) <BR>
 <BR>
Jack does NOT understand the concept of true Root Mean Square <BR>
measurement of AC power or how temperature rise in water can be <BR>
used to find the total power. Yes, with linear non reactive loads<BR>
and sine wave voltage and current, power is easy to measure with regular<BR>
average responding meters. BUT when non linear loads and non sine wave<BR>
power is measured, then average responding meters have errors. <BR>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.tinaja.com/">http://www.tinaja.com</A>&nbsp; file MUSE=
113.pdf, Muse125.pdf for more information. <BR>
 <BR>
In past year, Jack has NOT even changed the "30 amp screw in circuit breaker=
"<BR>
to 15 amp slow blow/time delay fuse, even though he claims only 9 amps<BR>
is needed at full load of 5 HP air compressor, 2.5 HP drill press and<BR>
arc welders set for 100 amps output; all at full load. Slow blow fuse<BR>
is made for surges, or use a 20 amp slow blow fuse if you want. Nor has<BR>
Jack ever actually tested the power himself or gotten anyone else to test it=
.<BR>
Just "quotes" alleged test results from Ken Rauen of Infinite Energy magazin=
e. <BR>
BUT they never published anything verifying your claims Jack. <BR>
 <BR>
Ken Rauen also wrote that he measured 208 VAC and 2 KW input <BR>
power on that 12 gauge 2 conductor wire with the Amprobe Data Logger<BR>
and he might have made some wrong connections to different phases<BR>
for the voltage and current sense leads on the motor. But never got a chance=
 <BR>
to check the connections since Jack and Wayne talked so much. <BR>
 <BR>
Jack can't connect a generator to the "5 HP" motor and use the 3000<BR>
watts of electrical power for other things, while using only 400 watts input=
 <BR>
power he claims. Nor can Jack power the RTPC and all that equipment from<BR>
small 1000 watt gasoline engine powered generator, even though only<BR>
110 VAC 9 amps input (1000 watts) is allegedly needed. <BR>
 <BR>
Jack also says that several RTPC have been sold in past years. Now <BR>
why can't Jack find one of those units and get some independent verification=
<BR>
of the "extra efficiency"? <BR>
 <BR>
Waren Oppenhiem of ThermoKing wasn't impressed by anything Jack<BR>
demonstrated either. <BR>
 <BR>
BOTTOM LINE JACK: Demonstrate something to experts that will <BR>
prove your claims of "more efficiency", then investments will be easy <BR>
to find, etc. and production of RTPC and other devices that will <BR>
"save the world" can begin soon. <BR>
 <BR>
Why can't that $350 million in business investments you allegedly have be <B=
R>
used to get started Jack? Or do you still need $150 million more to get tota=
l <BR>
of $500 million before you can start? Just like Dennis Lee waiting to<BR>
get 1.6 million witnesses before he can demonstrate "Free Electricity Machin=
e". ;-) <BR>
Jack claims Dennis Lee supposed to use the RTPC to power his Sundance<BR>
generator, but Dennis Lee denied that and says he will use Hummingbird<BR>
motor to power the Sundance generator. Dennis Lee also thought Jack <BR>
was "out there" and didn't really like Jack, but thought Wayne was OK.<BR>
Check out the March 29 2002 or maybe 2001 radio show Dennis Lee<BR>
did on <A HREF=3D"http://www.soundwaves2000.com/jgs/">www.soundwaves2000.com=
/jgs/</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; I asked Dennis about Jack<BR>
and "Confidential Technology" <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 11:38:37 2003
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <60.2e620d8b.2b9cf141 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:34:25 EST
Subject: The key to understanding the  lifter/anti gravity phenomena  
To: sbishopa sfu.ca, vortex-l@eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com, opa@aps.org
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In a message dated 3/9/03 1:43:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, sbishopa sfu.ca 
writes:
       Reply    THE key to understanding lifter/anti gravity technology is 
the ability to understand how the earths natural magnetic fields function. 
You have the answer if you do not all ready know it. Now figure out how they 
function.   One Clue  They are caused by neutrinos which is a power source. 
That are emitted by Stars and then they inter act with the earths iron 
deposits.  

The Natural fields  frequency intensity varies depending on the density of 
the iron deposits in a given location NOW make yourselves useful. Because New 
physics will need to created in order for you to understand the operational 
dynamics of how they function. 

When you accomplish that. Send the new concepts and we will compare them will 
our new physics that explain there multi dimensional aspects.  Try string and 
super strings for a start. To accomplish your goal you will have to think far 
beyond 3 D otherwise you never will be able to grasp there operational 
aspects. 

That means you will have to totally discard your box if one is confining you. 
Good luck because your going to need it.  JLN has coped an attitude I see 
because I cannot send him mail. In that case do not send this to him. He can 
fend for himself in what I call the cold dark foreboding sea of ignorance. To 
be able to discuss this with us you will have to submit new physics concepts 
in order to do so. Equations are not required     

> JLN is making further measurements into trying to understand the lifter
> phenomena.  His latest round claims that there is an assymetric force
> bewteen the wire (anode) and the foil plate (cathode) versus the force
> between the plate and the cathode.  He sums this up thusly: "The attraction
> force of the plate towards the wire is stronger than the attraction force 
> of
> the wire towards the plate."    
> 
> Of course, this statement makes no sense, as it would be a violation of
> Newton's 3rd Law.  Nevertheless, it is instructive to examine what has led
> him to this conclusion.  
> 
> I have attached a photo taken from JLN's site to this email.  The original
> can be found at http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/asymmetric/index.htm
> 
> The red circles I have drawn in the diagram are where your attention is to
> be focused, in terms of the design of his measuring apparatus.    It is a
> straightforward "teeter-totter" balancing arm.    On the left side of the 
> arm
> is mounted a metal plate; on its right side is mounted a copper wire.  On
> the left side, mechanically *detached* from the arm is mounted an identical
> copper wire as that on the arm's right side.  On the right side, *detached*
> from the arm is mounted a steel plate identical to the one mounted on the
> arm's left side. Note that he has mounted (properly) counterbalancing
> weights to the arm's right side to offset the weight of the metal plate on
> the left side of the arm; they can be seen as the metal object on the
> top-side of the right side of the arm, close to its end.
> 
> Now, the wires are connected to a *positive* high voltage power supply.  
> The
> plates are connected to ground.  
> 
> I claim the following:    The lifter phenomenon is simply the flow of
> electrons from the metal foil up to the positive high voltage wires.  In
> leaving the metal foil the electron has to overcome the work function of
> that metal.  Once it has left the metal, it is a freely moving particle
> under the influence of the intense electric field between the foil and the
> wire.  When they arrive at the wire, they have a total energy of
> approximately 40 keV -- and are travelling at relativistic speeds.  When
> they impact the wires, they impart a momentum to it creating an upward 
> force
> on the device; just as a stream of high pressure water
> imparts a force on you if you're standing in the way of it.
> 
> With this hypothesis, let's look at the circle on the right.  Here, the 
> wire
> is mounted to the arm, and the plate is rigidly fixed in place.  Electrons
> leave the plate and will strike the wire down below, imparting a downward
> force on the  wire.
> 
> Now to the left side of the arm.  Here, electrons leave the plate 
> (imparting
> negligible downward force on the arm since they only have to overcome the
> work function of the metal) and arrive at rigidly mounted wire above,
> slamming into it and most definitely imparting an upward force on that 
> wire.
> But, the wire being rigidly mounted, does not move.  
> 
> Naudin's measurement is confused.  His apparatus is ab initio designed
> imbalanced as far as the momentum transfer from the electron flow is
> concerned.  
> 
> To prove my claim experimentally is easy:  The wire that is rigidly mounted
> on the left holder could be made to "float", for example, by mounting the
> frame that holds it on vertical guide rails that would allow it to move up
> and down
> 
> Futher, to demonstrate that this device is powered by electron flow in the
> way I describe, can also be easily checked by imposing a sheet of lead 5 mm
> thick between the wire and the metal foils; lead of this thickness will be
> sufficient to absorb the electrons.  I claim that doing that will prevent
> the flow of electrons from cathode to anode, and prevent the device from
> lifting.
> 
> These are both *easy* tests, especially the one with lead.  Any takers on
> trying it?
> 
> Shawn
> 
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 1:43:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, sbishopa sfu.ca writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> Reply&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THE key to u=
nderstanding lifter/anti gravity technology is the ability to understand how=
 the earths natural magnetic fields function. You have the answer if you do=20=
not all ready know it. Now figure out how they function.&nbsp;&nbsp; One Clu=
e&nbsp; They are caused by neutrinos which is a power source. That are emitt=
ed by Stars and then they inter act with the earths iron deposits.&nbsp; <BR=
>
<BR>
The Natural fields&nbsp; frequency intensity varies depending on the density=
 of the iron deposits in a given location NOW make yourselves useful. Becaus=
e New physics will need to created in order for you to understand the operat=
ional dynamics of how they function. <BR>
<BR>
When you accomplish that. Send the new concepts and we will compare them wil=
l our new physics that explain there multi dimensional aspects.&nbsp; Try st=
ring and super strings for a start. To accomplish your goal you will have to=
 think far beyond 3 D otherwise you never will be able to grasp there operat=
ional aspects. <BR>
<BR>
That means you will have to totally discard your box if one is confining you=
. Good luck because your going to need it.&nbsp; JLN has coped an attitude I=
 see because I cannot send him mail. In that case do not send this to him. H=
e can fend for himself in what I call the cold dark foreboding sea of ignora=
nce. To be able to discuss this with us you will have to submit new physics=20=
concepts in order to do so. Equations are not required&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; <BR>
</B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">JLN is making further measureme=
nts into trying to understand the lifter<BR>
phenomena.&nbsp; His latest round claims that there is an assymetric force<B=
R>
bewteen the wire (anode) and the foil plate (cathode) versus the force<BR>
between the plate and the cathode.&nbsp; He sums this up thusly: "The attrac=
tion<BR>
force of the plate towards the wire is stronger than the attraction force of=
<BR>
the wire towards the plate."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Of course, this statement makes no sense, as it would be a violation of<BR>
Newton's 3rd Law.&nbsp; Nevertheless, it is instructive to examine what has=20=
led<BR>
him to this conclusion.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have attached a photo taken from JLN's site to this email.&nbsp; The origi=
nal<BR>
can be found at http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/asymmetric/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
The red circles I have drawn in the diagram are where your attention is to<B=
R>
be focused, in terms of the design of his measuring apparatus.&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; It is a<BR>
straightforward "teeter-totter" balancing arm.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On the left=
 side of the arm<BR>
is mounted a metal plate; on its right side is mounted a copper wire.&nbsp;=20=
On<BR>
the left side, mechanically *detached* from the arm is mounted an identical<=
BR>
copper wire as that on the arm's right side.&nbsp; On the right side, *detac=
hed*<BR>
from the arm is mounted a steel plate identical to the one mounted on the<BR=
>
arm's left side. Note that he has mounted (properly) counterbalancing<BR>
weights to the arm's right side to offset the weight of the metal plate on<B=
R>
the left side of the arm; they can be seen as the metal object on the<BR>
top-side of the right side of the arm, close to its end.<BR>
<BR>
Now, the wires are connected to a *positive* high voltage power supply.&nbsp=
; The<BR>
plates are connected to ground.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I claim the following:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The lifter phenomenon is simply the=
 flow of<BR>
electrons from the metal foil up to the positive high voltage wires.&nbsp; I=
n<BR>
leaving the metal foil the electron has to overcome the work function of<BR>
that metal.&nbsp; Once it has left the metal, it is a freely moving particle=
<BR>
under the influence of the intense electric field between the foil and the<B=
R>
wire.&nbsp; When they arrive at the wire, they have a total energy of<BR>
approximately 40 keV -- and are travelling at relativistic speeds.&nbsp; Whe=
n<BR>
they impact the wires, they impart a momentum to it creating an upward force=
<BR>
on the device; just as a stream of high pressure water<BR>
imparts a force on you if you're standing in the way of it.<BR>
<BR>
With this hypothesis, let's look at the circle on the right.&nbsp; Here, the=
 wire<BR>
is mounted to the arm, and the plate is rigidly fixed in place.&nbsp; Electr=
ons<BR>
leave the plate and will strike the wire down below, imparting a downward<BR=
>
force on the&nbsp; wire.<BR>
<BR>
Now to the left side of the arm.&nbsp; Here, electrons leave the plate (impa=
rting<BR>
negligible downward force on the arm since they only have to overcome the<BR=
>
work function of the metal) and arrive at rigidly mounted wire above,<BR>
slamming into it and most definitely imparting an upward force on that wire.=
<BR>
But, the wire being rigidly mounted, does not move.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Naudin's measurement is confused.&nbsp; His apparatus is ab initio designed<=
BR>
imbalanced as far as the momentum transfer from the electron flow is<BR>
concerned.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
To prove my claim experimentally is easy:&nbsp; The wire that is rigidly mou=
nted<BR>
on the left holder could be made to "float", for example, by mounting the<BR=
>
frame that holds it on vertical guide rails that would allow it to move up<B=
R>
and down<BR>
<BR>
Futher, to demonstrate that this device is powered by electron flow in the<B=
R>
way I describe, can also be easily checked by imposing a sheet of lead 5 mm<=
BR>
thick between the wire and the metal foils; lead of this thickness will be<B=
R>
sufficient to absorb the electrons.&nbsp; I claim that doing that will preve=
nt<BR>
the flow of electrons from cathode to anode, and prevent the device from<BR>
lifting.<BR>
<BR>
These are both *easy* tests, especially the one with lead.&nbsp; Any takers=20=
on<BR>
trying it?<BR>
<BR>
Shawn<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <fb.3a37bc5d.2b9cfede aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:32:30 EST
Subject:  Segway HOW about something better ??
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com
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  TOM The tech probably knows about the Cook drive But I do not. What is it 
and how do you think it can be improved.  ? SEgway was a take off on the sit 
down ones you ride in grocery stores He pimped them. He was involved with 
Delphi here for some of the building of it.  

 Another GM blunder How about A. Hover Board ??? Like back to the future If 
we would have spent another two weeks at Dennis Lee's  You would have saw one 
during his show tour.  One was accomplished in 1977 but it required a mat.   
For example to give you a beginning idea 

 One aspect is Concrete contains crystalline compounds and a field can 
created to enable one to function Stretch your pea brains out on that one 
instead of thinking about all those opinions you call laws. Because when they 
get S=T canned. You will need info to process. Sorry you will not get any 
free lunch's here you will have earn your way. The same as was accomplished 
on this end. it is called hard work. 

 Main stream science is under the false impression that people are supposed 
to tell them everything about any new situation. Well, those days are over.  
SURE so they steal it and take credit for new accomplishments. That is why 
they say you have to tells us how it can be reproduced so we can. Then we 
will be able to give it our seal of approval.  

PLEASE That is the lames game I have ever seen. Only a complete fool would 
fall for that one.  I SAY you want to know figure it out for yourself.  They 
do not like that at all   I say Screw them  Because all I have seen from Main 
stream science on Vortex is totally ignorant of new situations complicated 
cluster you know what ideas as far as testing our claimed situations. I have 
yet to see barley  one lick of simple innovative thinking. Are you getting 
the picture of how a  systematic process functions when say you want to 
demolish and create the demise of an entire attitude of thinking              
 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; <B>TOM The tech pr=
obably knows about the Cook drive But I do not. What is it and how do you th=
ink it can be improved.&nbsp; ? SEgway was a take off on the sit down ones y=
ou ride in grocery stores He pimped them. He was involved with Delphi here f=
or some of the building of it.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Another GM blunder How about A. Hover Board ??? Like back to the future If=20=
we would have spent another two weeks at Dennis Lee's&nbsp; You would have s=
aw one during his show tour.&nbsp; One was accomplished in 1977 but it requi=
red a mat.&nbsp;&nbsp; For example to give you a beginning idea <BR>
<BR>
 One aspect is Concrete contains crystalline compounds and a field can creat=
ed to enable one to function Stretch your pea brains out on that one instead=
 of thinking about all those opinions you call laws. Because when they get S=
=3DT canned. You will need info to process. Sorry you will not get any free=20=
lunch's here you will have earn your way. The same as was accomplished on th=
is end. it is called hard work. <BR>
<BR>
 Main stream science is under the false impression that people are supposed=20=
to tell them everything about any new situation. Well, those days are over.&=
nbsp; SURE so they steal it and take credit for new accomplishments. That is=
 why they say you have to tells us how it can be reproduced so we can. Then=20=
we will be able to give it our seal of approval.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
PLEASE That is the lames game I have ever seen. Only a complete fool would f=
all for that one.&nbsp; I SAY you want to know figure it out for yourself.&n=
bsp; They do not like that at all&nbsp;&nbsp; I say Screw them&nbsp; Because=
 all I have seen from Main stream science on Vortex is totally ignorant of n=
ew situations complicated cluster you know what ideas as far as testing our=20=
claimed situations. I have yet to see barley&nbsp; one lick of simple innova=
tive thinking. Are you getting the picture of how a&nbsp; systematic process=
 functions when say you want to demolish and create the demise of an entire=20=
attitude of thinking&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:57:38 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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At 9:07 AM 3/9/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:51:26 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>Actually, I think such a resolution would be accepted by France, Germany,
>Russia, and China, and vetoed by the US.

This was of course one of my feeble attempts at satire.  Continuing in that
vein, I would agree that indeed a veto of the suggested resolution would be
necessary from the USA because there is no way those countries could or
would put up the necessary collateral.

In reality, though, we the US have an obligation to be true to our allies
in the region.  The genocide that would result from the suggested
resolution would be horrific due to the inability and unwillingness of the
parties to sustain a credible enough threat to maintain inspections and
contain Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.  Not that I think France would
take such responsibility for its position, which  currently seems to be
that of spectator diplomat.  They sit at the table dining at US expense and
there seems to be no limit to their hunger. They should step up and take
real responsibility for the obviously unsustainable military presence that
is giving inspection even the illusion of working.  The idea that the
military status quo can be maintained is absurd.  It is easy for the French
and Germans to suggest delay when that delay will cost US and British
lives.   Further the notion that it is possible to contain the WMD's for
dispersal via terrorists training in camps in Iraq is also absurd.  It is
the absurdity of the situation that prompted me to attempt satire.



>
>
>>The United States and Britain have endured the hardship of the containment
>>of Iraq for over 10 years on behalf of the United Nations, Iraq's
>>neighbors, and Iraq's own citizens.  US and British troops have been been
>>in a continual state of war for that period, being fired upon on a regular
>>basis by Iraq in breach of the truce with Iraq.  Due to their opposition to
>>ending the war with Iraq by use of increased force, and the long overdue
>>need for rotation of United Nations enforcement responsibilities, France,
>>Germany, Russia, and China now assume the duties of the containment of
>>Iraq.  Therefore, US and British troops will immediately leave the vicinity
>>of Iraq, leaving to France, Germany, Russia, and China, and any allies they
>>may acquire for the purpose, the responsibility for containment of Iraq and
>>its weapons of mass destruction, and the suppression of Iraq's support for
>>terrorists.  Due to their unwillingness to force a permanent end to the
>>Iraq war, the states newly responsible for the containment of Iraq now also
>>assume the responsibility for damages due to any use of Iraq's weapons of
>>mass destruction, any losses suffered by countries due an attack by Iraq or
>>terrorists supported by Iraq, and any consequential damages due to Iraq's
>>military actions, such as any increase in the price of oil or the cost of
>>support of any refugees resulting from the actions of Iraq.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>>
>
>Regards,
>
>R. van Spaandonk
>
>When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
>for the man that made it all possible.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 14:04:40 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:03:21 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Who's paying the bills?
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At 9:02 AM 3/9/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:43:03 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>Who's paying the bills?
>
>In that case the solution is simple. Stop paying the bill.


Yes simple indeed.  We permit genocide on our allies in the region and
permit Iraq to take Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.  Immoral stupidity is
certainly simple.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 16:01:59 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:02:20 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: JCarey9622 aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voivenet.com, ted.loder@unh.edu
Subject: Re: TOTALLY NEW UNDERSTANDING 
In-Reply-To: <1de.3db2736.2b9a3874 aol.com>
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	Who is Steven Greer?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 18:17:14 2003
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: TOTALLY NEW UNDERSTANDING?  With a healthy serving of paranoia!
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:13:32 -0800
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Google will tell you more than you may want to know.

Whatever you may conclude about him, IMO he does have some good people on 
his SEAS Advisory Board.

Mark








>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: JCarey9622 aol.com
>CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, eric@voivenet.com, ted.loder@unh.edu
>Subject: Re: TOTALLY NEW UNDERSTANDING Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:02:20 -0500 
>(EST)
>
>
>
>	Who is Steven Greer?


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:03:47 EST
Subject: Re: TOTALLY NEW UNDERSTANDING 
To: herman antioch-college.edu
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In a message dated 3/9/03 7:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:


> Who is Steven Greer?
> 
     He is a or was an ER Doctor that is In, DC and  I  guess the creator of 
the Disclosure Project that pretains  to the  possible Govt cover ups of UFO 
situations. He has some major league players in his camp it appears. He is 
looking for new or advanced energy technologies that will make a positive 
difference. He offers a Million dollar or more licensing agreement situation 
for new or advanced energy related and Anti Gravity technologies. Anti 
Gravity is something the situation here now has a high end understanding of 
now  

He has a new Tech situation that is serious compared to current knowledge and 
science is clueless how to explain as far as I know. Because they have no 
conversion of energy math that will. Help them    But the process is possibly 
not wise because it is an unnatural conversion process of radiant energy,  if 
it is what I think it is. There is only two situations on the planet that I 
know of that were working on that type of technology and I know them both One 
in person. The other one I missed meeting in person out west 

One is using natural earth materials the other is using a lets say a winding 
set up. Both are Tesla inspired and gather basically neutrinos and convert 
them. The winding set up may cause unknown adverse effects to humans because 
of the ultra high frequency's involved.  Depending on the proximity a person 
is in regard to the device. Safe or if distance factors are necessary are 
unknown at this time. I know of only two people on the planet that can make 
that determination  

. Presently Not enough current main stream science knowledge exist to make 
that determination because the process is very exotic. When your gathering 
and broadcasting or converting radiant energy your dealing with an entire 
different unknown world.  The one using natural earth materials is derived 
from Tesla's 1899 notes and will be radioactive in 2500 years  

  Tesla took that info with him to the grave because he had to know those 
processes that he was knowledge  about was probably not the way to go. To us 
they are minor situations. To DR Greer  it is the best thing since sliced 
bread.  I'm 95% positive that one is winding set up.  At first i was thinking 
it was the other one.   I have both situations being demonstrated  on tape as 
prototypes  and have had for 20 months. THe winding set up demo started a car 
after disconnecting the battery. WE can duplicate both situations far more 
cost effective than they can. But now do not intend to.  I'M sorry I'm aware 
of far more advanced situations and I'm  very jaded What can I do about it.?

 I met up with Rhienhold Zigler In SAN FRAN  in June who has some basically 
know minor energy tech. situations who had been referred by the managing 
director who was a world level business type before joining Ecosustainable in 
Melbourne. 

THey are a world wide in scope group involved in environmental related 
projects. He called July 4 after my west coast trip about becoming involved. 
Reinhold referred me to Greer when I was in SAN FRAN and I spoke with Ted 
loder when I returned who had Johnatan Kobbler call me but they appeared to 
want to much control.

Then a month after that conversation Greer offered the million dollar deal. 
But when we saw it we were not interested. Then one of Dev. here died. So I 
thought what the hell so I called Greer direct and he called back. I also 
spoke to Loder in some depth. But it appears they are only interested in a 
situation they can control. Many are like that but not all. WE do not need 
them but they appeard to have serious political influence which is something 
I'm interested in   BUT  other situations also have that level of influence 
that are not seeking control.           

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 7:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Who is Steven Greer?<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He is a or was an ER Doctor that is In, DC and&nbsp=
; I&nbsp; guess the creator of the Disclosure Project that pretains&nbsp; to=
 the&nbsp; possible Govt cover ups of UFO situations. He has some major leag=
ue players in his camp it appears. He is looking for new or advanced energy=20=
technologies that will make a positive difference. He offers a Million dolla=
r or more licensing agreement situation for new or advanced energy related a=
nd Anti Gravity technologies. Anti Gravity is something the situation here n=
ow has a high end understanding of now&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
He has a new Tech situation that is serious compared to current knowledge an=
d science is clueless how to explain as far as I know. Because they have no=20=
conversion of energy math that will. Help them&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But the pro=
cess is possibly not wise because it is an unnatural conversion process of r=
adiant energy,&nbsp; if it is what I think it is. There is only two situatio=
ns on the planet that I know of that were working on that type of technology=
 and I know them both One in person. The other one I missed meeting in perso=
n out west <BR>
<BR>
One is using natural earth materials the other is using a lets say a winding=
 set up. Both are Tesla inspired and gather basically neutrinos and convert=20=
them. The winding set up may cause unknown adverse effects to humans because=
 of the ultra high frequency's involved.&nbsp; Depending on the proximity a=20=
person is in regard to the device. Safe or if distance factors are necessary=
 are unknown at this time. I know of only two people on the planet that can=20=
make that determination&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
. Presently Not enough current main stream science knowledge exist to make t=
hat determination because the process is very exotic. When your gathering an=
d broadcasting or converting radiant energy your dealing with an entire diff=
erent unknown world.&nbsp; The one using natural earth materials is derived=20=
from Tesla's 1899 notes and will be radioactive in 2500 years&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Tesla took that info with him to the grave because he had to know tho=
se processes that he was knowledge&nbsp; about was probably not the way to g=
o. To us they are minor situations. To DR Greer&nbsp; it is the best thing s=
ince sliced bread.&nbsp; I'm 95% positive that one is winding set up.&nbsp;=20=
At first i was thinking it was the other one.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have both situat=
ions being demonstrated&nbsp; on tape as prototypes&nbsp; and have had for 2=
0 months. THe winding set up demo started a car after disconnecting the batt=
ery. WE can duplicate both situations far more cost effective than they can.=
 But now do not intend to.&nbsp; I'M sorry I'm aware of far more advanced si=
tuations and I'm&nbsp; very jaded What can I do about it.?<BR>
<BR>
 I met up with Rhienhold Zigler In SAN FRAN&nbsp; in June who has some basic=
ally know minor energy tech. situations who had been referred by the managin=
g director who was a world level business type before joining Ecosustainable=
 in Melbourne. <BR>
<BR>
THey are a world wide in scope group involved in environmental related proje=
cts. He called July 4 after my west coast trip about becoming involved. Rein=
hold referred me to Greer when I was in SAN FRAN and I spoke with Ted loder=20=
when I returned who had Johnatan Kobbler call me but they appeared to want t=
o much control.<BR>
<BR>
Then a month after that conversation Greer offered the million dollar deal.=20=
But when we saw it we were not interested. Then one of Dev. here died. So I=20=
thought what the hell so I called Greer direct and he called back. I also sp=
oke to Loder in some depth. But it appears they are only interested in a sit=
uation they can control. Many are like that but not all. WE do not need them=
 but they appeard to have serious political influence which is something I'm=
 interested in&nbsp;&nbsp; BUT&nbsp; other situations also have that level o=
f influence that are not seeking control.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <31.35532124.2b9d6827 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:01:43 EST
Subject: Re: TOTALLY NEW UNDERSTANDING?  With a healthy serving of paranoia!
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In a message dated 3/9/03 9:17:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, mgoldes msn.com 
writes:


> Whatever you may conclude about him, IMO he does have some good people on 
> his SEAS Advisory Board.     I like that   healthy serving of paranoial  
> that is cute   Let me show what vision is all about maybe you may learn 
> sonething 
> 
>     I do not disagree with that because I"m not  knowledgeable in that 
regard  He is only looking at  what we consider minor technology  situations. 
He exhibits to strong of a control manor as most scientific based situations 
attempt and does not appear to be business inclined. to any extent. Because 
his background is medicine. 

Whereas Ted loder  his associate is easier  to deal with. Greer attempts to 
dominate. I only deal with mutual cooperation non control on either side 
situations. WE will have our own new corp. concept entity and evolutionary 
new technology manufacturing situations. That we intent to set a new 
benchmark with by conducting business basically opposite of how current corp. 
operate.

 The old ways as Henry Ford created worked once they will work again. Crop's 
have basically lost sight of those proven practices Because they are now 
Micro managed which makes no sense. WE will only employ basically farm boy 
type self taught Engineers. AS the ones that the now major manufacturing Co. 
were built by. I would not give you a plug nickel for a theory only college 
trained engineer or scientist. WE want totally hands on types only that are 
total misfits.  Because they have the abil;ity to create Whereas the others 
do not. .   Plus the misfits are the types that built this country that the 
conformist ones are now totally screwing up          


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 9:17:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, mgoldes msn.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Whatever you may conclude about=
 him, IMO he does have some good people on <BR>
his SEAS Advisory Board.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> I like that&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
healthy serving of paranoial&nbsp; that is cute&nbsp;&nbsp; Let me show what=
 vision is all about maybe you may learn sonething </B><BR>
<B><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not disagree with that because I"m not&=
nbsp; knowledgeable in that regard&nbsp; He is only looking at&nbsp; what we=
 consider minor technology&nbsp; situations. He exhibits to strong of a cont=
rol manor as most scientific based situations attempt and does not appear to=
 be business inclined. to any extent. Because his background is medicine. <B=
R>
<BR>
Whereas Ted loder&nbsp; his associate is easier&nbsp; to deal with. Greer at=
tempts to dominate. I only deal with mutual cooperation non control on eithe=
r side situations. WE will have our own new corp. concept entity and evoluti=
onary new technology manufacturing situations. That we intent to set a new b=
enchmark with by conducting business basically opposite of how current corp.=
 operate.<BR>
<BR>
 The old ways as Henry Ford created worked once they will work again. Crop's=
 have basically lost sight of those proven practices Because they are now Mi=
cro managed which makes no sense. WE will only employ basically farm boy typ=
e self taught Engineers. AS the ones that the now major manufacturing Co. we=
re built by. I would not give you a plug nickel for a theory only college tr=
ained engineer or scientist. WE want totally hands on types only that are to=
tal misfits.&nbsp; Because they have the abil;ity to create Whereas the othe=
rs do not. .&nbsp;&nbsp; Plus the misfits are the types that built this coun=
try that the conformist ones are now totally screwing up&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: JCarey9622 aol.com
Message-ID: <ad.2bbbed60.2b9d6dc9 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:25:45 EST
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] Can we act like adults here?
To: alternativefuelvehicles yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/9/03 9:03:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hunter_hound yahoo.com writes:


> It's no wonder society has taken so long to accept new ideas. All 
> they have to do is visit this site.
> 
> Hunter
> 
>      WELL said  Hunter. Are your Shoes still tied? They were taught to be 
> negative first and totally single minded. As far as reactions for a reason, 
> so they would not look beyond their boxes. Because if they did and found 
> something that was viable it may rock someone's boat,  that is happy the 
> way it is now.

   By using a teaching practices that are cloning in nature you can keep them 
in there box, that you 
> constructed for them. So they can be controlled. There is only one problem 
> with that agenda. No one will be able to create solutions because they were 
> never taught that dynamic.       
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/9/03=
 9:03:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, hunter_hound yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It's no wonder society has take=
n so long to accept new ideas. All <BR>
they have to do is visit this site.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>WELL said&nbsp; Hunter. Are your Shoes still tie=
d? They were taught to be negative first and totally single minded. As far a=
s reactions for a reason, so they would not look beyond their boxes. Because=
 if they did and found something that was viable it may rock someone's boat,=
&nbsp; that is happy the way it is now.</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> By using a t=
eaching practices that are cloning in nature you can keep them in there box,=
 that you </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff=
" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>constructed for them. So they can be controlled. There i=
s only one problem with that agenda. No one will be able to create solutions=
 because they were never taught that dynamic.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 21:35:36 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:04:13 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:51:26 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>The United States and Britain have endured the hardship of the containment
>of Iraq for over 10 years on behalf of the United Nations, Iraq's
>neighbors, and Iraq's own citizens.  US and British troops have been been
>in a continual state of war for that period, being fired upon on a regular
>basis by Iraq in breach of the truce with Iraq.  

This is in the illegally established so called "no-fly zones" which are not UN sanctioned.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 22:05:10 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:22:37 -0500
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Hi Fred.

Almost all the voltage drop will be across the air gap,
what do you gain by higher voltage? You could put both
electrodes in a container of molten wax, and agitate
it to break up the resulting carbon tracks. I think
the wax would contaminate too badly though.

Liquid D would probably be your best choice, "cold fusion"
in the extreme!

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:25 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: Francis J. Stenger
Subject: Re: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?


A gram (approximately one cubic centimeter)of Deuterated Wax CnD(2n+2) or
C(18-36D(38-74) contains at least 2 deuterons per carbon atom in the
molecule, thus
about 4e21 deuterons per gram, compared to D2O which contains about 6e22
deuterons/gram.And melts at 110 - 145 degrees F or more, as compared to
heavy ice that
melts at ~ 32 deg F.

http://www.i-sctc.com/paraffinwax.htm

http://www.iconisotopes.com/www_iconisotopes_com.html

This allows for the possibility of putting a thin coating of D-wax (possibly
laced
with lithium or boron) on a metal
substrate (Pd?) and applying a high electric field intensity with a point
electrode by
discharging a small high voltage capacitor or an automotive ignition coil
(with energy
0.5 C*V^2 or 0.5 LI^2) through the thin D-wax dielectric film...?

A one picofarad capacitor that could be made using metal plates separated by
mylar
film or such, would provide a 1.25 millijoule pulse at 50 kilovolts.

Regards,

Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  9 22:34:17 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Segway HOW about something better ??
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Jack Carey posted,

   TOM The tech probably knows about the Cook drive But I do not. What 
is it and how do you think it can be improved.  ? SEgway was a take 
off on the sit down ones you ride in grocery

And I replied;

I have no idea. If I had the money to experiment, I would look into it.
--============_-1164844442==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Segway HOW about something better
??</title></head><body>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1">Jack Carey posted,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1">&nbsp;<b> TOM The tech probably
knows about the Cook drive But I do not. What is it and how do you
think it can be improved.&nbsp; ? SEgway was a take off on the sit
down ones you ride in grocery</b></font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And I replied;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have no idea. If I had the money to experiment, I would look
into it. </div>
</body>
</html>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 00:35:27 2003
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References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEEJDIAA.knagel gis.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:30:06 -0600
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Hi Keith.  You wrote:


> Hi Fred.
>
> Almost all the voltage drop will be across the air gap,
> what do you gain by higher voltage?

I guess I wasn't clear. The electrode on the opposite side of the plate that the wax
is on is in contact with the wax, and the voltage is run up to the breakdown voltage
of the wax for a one-shot test to see if neutrons (etc)are generated with low energy
breakdown pulses (580 million deg K   50 kilovolts).
I've seen 1/2 inch thick samples of "lucite" that were treated this way.


>You could put both
> electrodes in a container of molten wax, and agitate
> it to break up the resulting carbon tracks. I think
> the wax would contaminate too badly though.

Yes, or you could pressurize D2 to to 50 atm or more with a Hg pool as the
self-healing cathode and a needle point electrode as the anode. I figured the wax
would be easier to work with, and might behave somewhat  like the "active sites" (high
fields?) that Ed Storms sees in LENR-CANR experiments.
>
> Liquid D would probably be your best choice, "cold fusion"
> in the extreme!

Too hard to work with.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick
>
> K.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:25 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: Francis J. Stenger
> Subject: Re: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?
>
>
> A gram (approximately one cubic centimeter)of Deuterated Wax CnD(2n+2) or
> C(18-36D(38-74) contains at least 2 deuterons per carbon atom in the
> molecule, thus
> about 4e21 deuterons per gram, compared to D2O which contains about 6e22
> deuterons/gram.And melts at 110 - 145 degrees F or more, as compared to
> heavy ice that
> melts at ~ 32 deg F.
>
> http://www.i-sctc.com/paraffinwax.htm
>
> http://www.iconisotopes.com/www_iconisotopes_com.html
>
> This allows for the possibility of putting a thin coating of D-wax (possibly
> laced
> with lithium or boron) on a metal
> substrate (Pd?) and applying a high electric field intensity with a point
> electrode by
> discharging a small high voltage capacitor or an automotive ignition coil
> (with energy
> 0.5 C*V^2 or 0.5 LI^2) through the thin D-wax dielectric film...?
>
> A one picofarad capacitor that could be made using metal plates separated by
> mylar
> film or such, would provide a 1.25 millijoule pulse at 50 kilovolts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frederick
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 09:13:27 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:02:04 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Recent LENR-CANR uploads
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>

> Here are two papers about the unusual radioactive elements produced in a 
> Pons-Fleischmann cell by K. Wolf at Texas A & M:
> 
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEalchemynig.pdf
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/PassellTOradiationd.pdf

WOW! If this is true...Somebody slipped up, big time !

"Just what did Tom Passell's ICCF5 presentation show? It indicated that in 1992, about six weeks after a Pons-Fleischmann-type cold fusion experiment was completed in Dr. Wolf's lab, at least one cathode was found to be inexplicably radioactive. Gamma rays from at least seven radionuclides were unmistakably observed. The number of counts observed per peak is on the order of 104-106 counts, with a signal-to-noise ratio of ten. Under these conditions, the statistical significance of the data is extremely high. Since there is no known explanation for how palladium can be made radioactive, it is can be assumed that the "cold fusion" reaction, whatever that is, was involved in some way."

AMEN. But the proper analysis of these results may be sub-par and lacking! and extremely important...

If you look at the Data Isotope Abundance, the most abundant isotope at the time of the testing and probably by far the isotope most responsible for any excess heat that was observed is Ag-106. It has a Half-life of only 23.96 min BUT the measurement was taken ~42 days later ! and it is still the most prevalent radio-isotope in the sample !!!!

I don't want to overplay the significance of this, but think about it - The silver isotope had undergone about 2500 half-life periods and STILL was the most abundant radioisotope !!!

PLUS Mode of decay of Ag-106 is Electron capture to Pd-106 !!
(Branch ratio: 99.50 % ) Decay energy: 2.965 MeV

Yes. I know that this could be premature, or a big measurement error, and it doesn't answer the question of where does the excess mass-energy come from initially (ZPE, of a high initial population of metastable Pd-106 ??). 

I would not agree completely with the conclusion of MIT's Peter Hagelstein, who has argued that the atomic lattice may couple with individual atoms, producing metastable (highly excited) states in individual nuclei. Under some conditions neutrons can even "hop" from one atom to another. 

It is more likely IMHO, that the most significant species, Ag-106 came form a different kind of fully loaded lattice coupling. IOW, Hagelstein "metastable states in individual nuclei" may be responsible, but in a totally unique way that he missed entirely - IGE (or induced gamma emission which I will explain more fully in a later post).

But no matter. How could they miss the significance of the short half-life of this "silver bullet" (Ag-106)!!

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 09:32:46 2003
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Subject: K. Wolf's results
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Jones Beene wrote:

>If you look at the Data Isotope Abundance, the most abundant isotope at 
>the time of the testing and probably by far the isotope most responsible 
>for any excess heat that was observed is Ag-106. It has a Half-life of 
>only 23.96 min BUT the measurement was taken ~42 days later ! and it is 
>still the most prevalent radio-isotope in the sample !!!!

No calorimetry was performed. See Passell: "Wolf's cells were not 
instrumented to observe XSH [excess heat]." I suppose calorimetry would 
have interfered with the neutron detector.

It is worth noting that these measurements were confirmed later at two West 
Coast labs. I do not recall which ones. I think Lawrence Berkeley was one.

- Jed


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> It is worth noting that these measurements were confirmed later at two West Coast labs. I do not recall which ones. I think Lawrence Berkeley was one.

Jed,

I guess I didn't explain the precise reason for my amazement very well. The important thing here is not whether any measurement of excess heat took place. Excess heat would be unavoidable if the measurement of Ag-106 were anywhere close to being accurate, as Ag-106 gives off a ~3 MeV gamma (most of the time) and its half life is only 24 minutes.  This puts it up there with Radon,etc in terms of high radioactivity

If you look at the table, I'm not even sure if the "B" is intended to mean  Bq (becquerel), or parts per billion, or what, BUT it really doesn't matter what, that is, when you are dealing with this many re-doublings it could be only 26 atoms and still be significant! 

If you work backwards from approx 2500 half-life periods, then the initial population of Ag-106 would have been extraordinary high...

...but OTOH, one could posit that the measurement of "26B" could have already taken into account the depletion effect of the half-life, BUT that could NOT have been the case, as, after this many periods, no instrumentation is that accurate and we would have gotten down to individual atoms. 

IOW, there IS some error here. I repeat, there has to be some error!

"How much error" is really the only question. 

If the error were not too great, then we could be looking at THE SMOKING GUN of all CF  reactions, that is, if the measurement of Ag-106 is anywhere close to being accurate.

What we are really talking about here is the exponential power of *re-doubling* (or re-halving) of any initial amount. Every ten re-doublings increases the starting amount a thousand fold, every 30 redoublings a billion fold, every 2500 hundred re-doublings is ASTONOMICAL. "Half-life" doesn't work exactly like that, especially going backwards, but it's close enough for our purposes here:

... If these results were anywhere close to accurate, this could be MAJOR!!

Get the "silver bullet" picture, now?

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 10:52:02 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:49:48 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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At 9:04 AM 3/9/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:51:26 -0900:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>The United States and Britain have endured the hardship of the containment
>>of Iraq for over 10 years on behalf of the United Nations, Iraq's
>>neighbors, and Iraq's own citizens.  US and British troops have been been
>>in a continual state of war for that period, being fired upon on a regular
>>basis by Iraq in breach of the truce with Iraq.
>
>This is in the illegally established so called "no-fly zones" which are
>not UN sanctioned.

The no-fly zones are the result of the flawed truce and are there to
prevent the the further mass slaughter of the citizens of Iraq by WMD and
other horrific means.  Since the truce has been violated for over 10 years
anyway, it is hard to understand why the UN was involved at all.  However,
since the UN saw fit to pass resolution 1441, it is now their duty to
enforce it.  There are few states in the world that are actually naive
enough to think 1441 is not materially breached and will not continually be
breached as long as the present regime is in place in Iraq.  Many common
citizens, however, are permitted and in some cases encouraged to remain in
ignorance by those in power who have something to gain (or not to lose) if
Sadam stays in power in Iraq.

When the war is over I think it is obvious to all we will see the truth
about Sadam's weapons programs and those leaders in foreign governments who
are in complicity and who have duped their own populations.  People who are
presently gullible enough to believe Iraq over the US will have to face
their mistake.  If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US will
have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.  If it
ends up that the WMD are destroyed and the people of Iraq dance in the
streets for their liberation, well then the apologies need be coming from
the gullible, not the US.  In any case, it is only through elimination of
the threat of Iraq that the US can extract its troops from Saudi Arabia and
other neighboring areas.  This extraction is highly desirable for all
involved parties.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 11:53:11 2003
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>In any case, it is only through elimination of
>the threat of Iraq that the US can extract its troops from Saudi Arabia and
>other neighboring areas.  This extraction is highly desirable for all
>involved parties.
>

Of course, there will remain an Iranian threat; but, that one might take 
care of itself.

As for the third Axis of Evil party, various media are reporting that 
parts of a North Korean missile were found in Alaska.  What do you hear 
of this in local news?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 13:13:53 2003
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Subject: PARTLY OFF TOPIC Iran Close to Making Nukes
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Of course, there will remain an Iranian threat; but, that one might take 
>care of itself.

Then again, it might not. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-US-Iran-Nuclear.html

Quotes:


Report: Iran Close to Making Nukes

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Iran now has hundreds of centrifuges to produce enriched 
uranium and is moving closer to building a nuclear weapon than 
international authorities had previously believed.

``We have seen this week Iran has got a more aggressive nuclear program 
than the (International Atomic Energy Agency) thought it had,'' Secretary 
of State Colin Powell said Sunday on CNN. He used the reports to bolster 
the Bush administration's case against Iraq.
``It shows you how a determined nation that has the intent to develop a 
nuclear weapon can keep that development process secret from inspectors and 
outsiders, if they really are determined to do it, and we know that Saddam 
Hussein has not lost his intent,'' Powell said.


Actually, other sources say that Iran never made a serious effort to cover 
up its nuclear program, beyond bland denials that were not meant to be 
believed. This is same "deny the obvious" strategy Israel employs. After 
all, they do not really want to keep their weapons a secret. There would be 
no point; nuclear weapons only have value as a deterrent. The enemy must 
know about them.

The worldwide situation reminds me of the Tom Lehrer song "Who's Next:"


France got the bomb, but don't you grieve,
'Cause they're on our side (I believe).
China got the bomb, but have no fears,
They can't wipe us out for at least five years.
Who's next?
. . .

Luxembourg is next to go,
And (who knows?) maybe Monaco.
We'll try to stay serene and calm
When Alabama gets the bomb.
Who's next?
Who's next?


OFF TOPIC OPINION FOLLOWS . . .

I do not know how this problem can be solved, or whether it can be solved. 
I doubt the U.S. has enough wealth or military power to invade and conquer 
every nation now working to make nuclear bombs, aside from other defects 
the Pax Americana solution would have. It does seem to me that hysterical 
pronouncements about "evil" by the president and others may have 
exacerbated the situation. Former president Bush apparently thinks so. See:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605441,00.html

It seems to me that we managed to live with Stalin and Mao during much more 
dangerous, tense times without fighting many wars -- certainly without the 
U.S. unilaterally invading other countries which were not at war with us or 
anyone else.

It seems to me that in the long term, the only way to escape 
mankind's  fascination with nuclear bombs and death is to move on to more 
life-affirming projects, such as research, art, education, giving everyone 
a decent life, cleaning up the mess we have made on earth, and exploring 
the solar system and beyond. At times like the Hundred Years War nations 
became obsessed with war, destruction, power politics. Everyone was 
miserable for generations. I fear we may be falling into some similar 
nihilistic pit of despair. We want a future world in which we think of a 
nuclear bomb as an ancient, obsolete horrors, like a medieval rack or the 
shackles used to imprison slaves.

It seems to me that researchers, artists, and other creative people have a 
special obligation to point out to the public and to leaders that nothing 
needs be the way it is. We can change any system. If we cannot fix a 
problem, or make it go away, we can certainly ameliorate just about any 
problem. Everyone reading this forum knows there are countless ways to 
reduce our dependence on oil. Even if CF can never be made practical, there 
are a hundred other ways to reduce or eliminate the use of fossil fuels. 
This war may not be about oil exactly, but oil is the subtext. It is the 
underlying reason there is conflict in the first place. As Bush said, we 
would not be fighting it if this was not a "strategically important" part 
of the world. The dictators and fanatics in the Middle East would have no 
money were it not for oil. The common people in the middle east would be 
better off without oil. It brings them false hope of wealth. Without 
democracy the dictators will always steal the oil wealth, causing unending 
jealousy and social unrest. It would better for the people to turn their 
backs on oil and do as the Japanese, Koreans and Israelis have done, 
building wealth based on intellectual property, skill and hard work. 
Dictators find it more difficult to steal the fruits of such labor.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 13:31:47 2003
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The dictators and fanatics in the Middle East would have no money were 
> it not for oil. The common people in the middle east would be better 
> off without oil. It brings them false hope of wealth. Without 
> democracy the dictators will always steal the oil wealth, causing 
> unending jealousy and social unrest.


An exception to this is Qatar whose citizens enjoy one of the highest 
per capita incomes in the world.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107901.html



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According to my reference book, Ag106 is a positron emitter with a half life of 24 min, but has a 8.28 day half-life for  511.9 KeV gamma emission.  I suspect the other gamma energies attributed to Ag106 by Passell must be caused by the 8.28 day transition.

Ed

Jones Beene wrote:

>
> > It is worth noting that these measurements were confirmed later at two West Coast labs. I do not recall which ones. I think Lawrence Berkeley was one.
>
> Jed,
>
> I guess I didn't explain the precise reason for my amazement very well. The important thing here is not whether any measurement of excess heat took place. Excess heat would be unavoidable if the measurement of Ag-106 were anywhere close to being accurate, as Ag-106 gives off a ~3 MeV gamma (most of the time) and its half life is only 24 minutes.  This puts it up there with Radon,etc in terms of high radioactivity
>
> If you look at the table, I'm not even sure if the "B" is intended to mean  Bq (becquerel), or parts per billion, or what, BUT it really doesn't matter what, that is, when you are dealing with this many re-doublings it could be only 26 atoms and still be significant!
>
> If you work backwards from approx 2500 half-life periods, then the initial population of Ag-106 would have been extraordinary high...
>
> ...but OTOH, one could posit that the measurement of "26B" could have already taken into account the depletion effect of the half-life, BUT that could NOT have been the case, as, after this many periods, no instrumentation is that accurate and we would have gotten down to individual atoms.
>
> IOW, there IS some error here. I repeat, there has to be some error!
>
> "How much error" is really the only question.
>
> If the error were not too great, then we could be looking at THE SMOKING GUN of all CF  reactions, that is, if the measurement of Ag-106 is anywhere close to being accurate.
>
> What we are really talking about here is the exponential power of *re-doubling* (or re-halving) of any initial amount. Every ten re-doublings increases the starting amount a thousand fold, every 30 redoublings a billion fold, every 2500 hundred re-doublings is ASTONOMICAL. "Half-life" doesn't work exactly like that, especially going backwards, but it's close enough for our purposes here:
>
> ... If these results were anywhere close to accurate, this could be MAJOR!!
>
> Get the "silver bullet" picture, now?
>
> Jones

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 13:58:55 2003
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Subject: CDC develops cheap new water purification
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Here is an antidote to dreary & frightening news:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/sunday/news_e3a68d4bb2d5103d00e6.html

Safe drinking water, for pennies a month
Poor countries reap benefits of method developed by CDC

Lee Bowman - Scripps Howard News Service

Sunday, March 9, 2003

A splash of bleach and some good plastic containers are all it takes to 
provide safe drinking water to poor people around the world for just 
pennies a month per person, using a system developed by U.S. health 
officials. . . .

Even though people boiled water, some still got cholera because the boiled 
water was stored in open pots and barrels that allowed recontamination.

''So we realized that we needed a simple way to clean dirty water and a way 
to store that clean water so it can stay clean,'' Mintz said. ''That 
involved two elements: treating the water with a low-cost dilute bleach 
that can be manufactured locally, and coming up with a storage vessel.''



I have been hoping that cold fusion can accomplish this. If it can be done 
instead with a specially designed plastic bottle and some bleach, that's 
fine too! Low tech or high tech, I am delighted. The best innovations for 
the third world are often a combination of low and high tech, such as a 
wind-up transistor radio, or a wind-up generator with a white-LED light.

Let's hear it for the CDC, right here in Atlanta! Bravo!

This kind of thing will bring more lasting peace than an army of 10 
million. I realize that terrorists such as Bin Laden are often spoiled 
middle class or rich people, but they thrive on other people's poverty and 
misery. They hide out in nations overwhelmed by war.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 14:23:45 2003
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At 2:42 PM 3/10/3, Terry Blanton wrote:

>As for the third Axis of Evil party, various media are reporting that
>parts of a North Korean missile were found in Alaska.  What do you hear
>of this in local news?

I haven't watched the local news much for some weeks now, so I could have
missed it.  I'll post here if I find out anything.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 14:45:20 2003
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>>The dictators and fanatics in the Middle East would have no money were it 
>>not for oil. The common people in the middle east would be better off 
>>without oil. It brings them false hope of wealth. Without democracy the 
>>dictators will always steal the oil wealth, causing unending jealousy and 
>>social unrest.
>
>An exception to this is Qatar whose citizens enjoy one of the highest per 
>capita incomes in the world.
>
>http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107901.html

Yes, indeed. I did not mean to suggest that oil or mineral wealth are 
themselves bad for a society.

Qatar is a good model for the other Arab nations. As this article points 
out, they are moving toward democracy. They had an election, lifted press 
censorship, started the semi-independent Al Jazeera satellite network . . . 
It sounds like Japan in 1920 or Korea in 1980, authoritarian but heading 
toward democracy. (Unfortunately, in Japan the militarists took over and 
crushed democracy, but that does not always happen.) Kuwait has widely 
shared wealth and less corruption than the other nations in the area, but 
no elections yet, not much freedom for women, etc. Iran seems to be moving 
in hopeful directions.

Perhaps the Bush administration's bold plans will work, and war really will 
trigger democratic movements. It seems unlikely, but stranger things have 
happened. If it works out that I will be happy to admit I was wrong, give 
Bush credit, and vote for him.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, if Iraq develops nuclear 
weapons but at the same time it begins holding regular elections, and 
shifts power from the mullahs to elected officials, I would not worry much. 
It would be no worse than nuclear weapons in India or China.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 14:47:16 2003
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From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com>

> According to my reference book, Ag106 is a positron emitter with a half life of 24 min, but has a 8.28 day half-life for  511.9 KeV gamma emission.  I suspect the other gamma energies attributed to Ag106 by Passell must be caused by the 8.28 day transition.

According to BNL:
http://www2.bnl.gov/CoN/nuc/A/Ag106.shtml

Half life: 23.96 M 
Mode of decay: Electron capture to Pd-106 Branch ratio: 99.50 % 
Decay energy: 2.965 MeV 


I take this to mean that almost all of the time (99.5%) you will end up with a ~3 MeV recoil gamma as a result of EC... less than 1% of the time you will get the lower energy transition...

But - by far- the most important item for the study in question is the *24 minute* half-life. The test results of Wolf et.al. were taken 6 weeks after the run 6*7*60/perD = 2520 half-life periods.

Let me repeat  the tentative conclusion. If they are showing ANY significant Ag-106 activity after 2500 half-life periods, then the contribution of this species to any excess heating during or at the end of the run (2500 periods before) should  have been INCREDIBLE. The implications for other similar CF cells is equally incredible.

There is clearly an error. But JR says two other labs confirmed. How could this be?

If the error were not too great, then we could be looking at THE SMOKING GUN of some, or many CF OU results, that is, if the measurement of Ag-106 is anywhere close to being accurate, and the Wolf setup is close to normal. What we are really talking about here is the exponential power of *re-doubling* (or re-halving) of any initial amount. Every ten re-doublings increases the starting amount a thousand fold, every 30 redoublings a billion fold, every 2500 hundred re-doublings is ASTONOMICAL. "Half-life" doesn't work exactly like that, especially going backwards, but it should be close enough for our purposes here. Or am I missing something?

Jones

PS: Ed,  Have you over performed any gamma/ x-ray spectroscopy testing of your cathodes? If so could you enlighten us on what could be happening with the Wolf results to show high Ag-106 activity so long after the end of a run.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 14:57:33 2003
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At 9:02 AM 3/10/3, Jones Beene wrote:

>If you look at the Data Isotope Abundance, the most abundant isotope at
>the time of the testing and probably by far the isotope most responsible
>for any excess heat that was observed is Ag-106. It has a Half-life of
>only 23.96 min BUT the measurement was taken ~42 days later ! and it is
>still the most prevalent radio-isotope in the sample !!!!


This is proof that the Ag106 is the daugther product of another longer half
life decay.  Something else is being made that then decays into the Ag106.
Call it isotope X. There should be visible decay products from X.  If X has
no high energy decay products then maybe one of the low energy nuclear
captures (we have discussed so many times) occurs in the creation of X and
thus there is no visible high energy reaction product from isotope X when
it decays into Ag106.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Jones Beene wrote:

>There is clearly an error. But JR says two other labs confirmed. How could 
>this be?

I do not know whether they confirmed every single radioisotope. Some of the 
short lived ones must have been gone.

I believe this was done weeks after the original finding at TAMU, but I do 
not know any details. I will ask Tom Passell, and report back.

I am not sure where Beene read that the measurement was "taken ~42 days 
later." Is that in one of Passell's viewgraphs? It says the run was 42 days 
long and the fast neutron event was on day 22. That would make the analysis 
20 days later, which is still a long time of course. I presume the 
transmutations occurred during the event . . . but perhaps not. Maybe there 
were low level events periodically after that.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:06:25 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:01:43 EST
Subject: THE NATURE OF THE BOSE CONDENSATE
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
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THE NATURE OF THE BOSE CONDENSATE 
Bosons have a spin of one and do not obey the Poly exclusion principle. Any 
number of Bosons can occupy the same quantum state. The wavelength of a Boson 
cannot increase beyond the dimensions of the condensate. The ground state 
wavelength of a Bose condensate is described by the Znidarsic's dimensional 
constant of one megahertz-meter. The wavelength of a quantum state determines 
its energy. The ground state energy level contains every Boson. No potential 
energy levels exist within the condensate. The stimulation of a Bose 
condensate at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter tends to 
reinforce the condensate. This phase of the Bosons align. The condensate 
becomes segregated into discrete levels of kinetic energy. Many electrons 
reside at each kinetic energy level. The energy difference between the levels 
approaches the energy associated with nuclear transformations. The match 
allows energy to flow from the nucleus to the condensate. Low-level nuclear 
reactions proceed. 

A normal conductor conducts electrons. The hydrides of certain metals conduct 
protons. For example, an applied voltage will drive dissolved hydrogen 
through a palladium wire. Mobile protons can be made to condense. A 
condensation may be obtained through the stimulation of a proton conductor at 
the dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter. This stimulation generates 
disturbances. Protons condense around these disturbances. Massive protons 
travel at a much lower velocities than light electrons. The low velocity 
associated with thermal protons permits them to condense at high 
temperatures. This condensation occurs at a specific frequency. It is a 
hyper-conductive state. The cold fusion effect takes place within a 
hyper-conductive state. 8. Cold fusion talks place within 50 nano-meter sized 
clusters of protons. These clusters are stimulated at thermal frequencies (   
1014 hertz ). The product of the cluster size and the stimulation frequency 
is one megahertz-meter. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:08:04 2003
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Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles]  Whats GM up these Days Dan?  
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        Dan Your a GM, Professional  Eng.  If water injection or combining 
with gas  is feasible  what if anything is GM looking at in regard to a 
process. ? As Scott is speaking about   They spent millions on the clean burn 
combustion that one of our late DEV showed them the first step 20 years ago. 

 The exhaust could be inhaled by humans without harm. You can now buy a fire 
place at Lowes that is 99% EFF. What is difference between Nat gas and 
gasoline? Or are they in bed with the oil CO's?  As they have been for 100 
years     The only residue now with new advancements would be clean carbon 
that your lawn would love.    That Tech. can be feasible and now be closed 
loop with no exhaust needed. 20 years ago there was a 92% ERG situation   

We are not going to dev. Because that process is obsolete to us  But the 2 
cycle 4 cycle concept  would be far better than what they have now.    8 Cy 
Power 4 CY mileage With a 6 CY platform. YOU never commented on that DAN  
WHY?  Because GM or SAE Eng.'s did not Dev. it.   

 Delphi's chief Scientist had seen the diagram before when we showed it to 
him. DAN did you call Delphi and verify i was for real ?????  I gave you the 
direct NO Tell the readers  DAN HyOx is not going to fly. PERIOD So why waste 
your time with it. The process is incorrect  TELL us Dan who came up over 
plumbed cluster you know what anyway SAE Eng's.?  

The correct way is to burn oxygen and have hydrogen as your by product. Does 
that HyOx do that.?  If not  It is a turkey and you pull not push the fuel. I 
have seen at Delphi the cluster you know what fuel pump delivery systems they 
use. They are an Eng. nightmare. In the old days they had a simple 20 dollar 
easy to change pull type pump. Now you have to drop the tank. To change a 
fuel pump  My old 86 IROC  Camero you also had to drop the axle just to get 
to the tank. That makes total zero sense. 

 They could at least had an access from the trunk. NO that would have made 
sense.  In 1962 when I was 17 I left our summer home on the lake driving a 
1957 Chev convertible. I  was driving back to the city to go to work a 100 
miles away on the 4 of July and my fuel pump started acting up and I stopped 
in a small town at a gas station that was open. I paid $10 to have a simple 
to change  rebuilt fuel pump installed in 20 minutes    

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dan Your a GM, Professional&nbsp; Eng.&nbsp; If water i=
njection or combining with gas&nbsp; is feasible&nbsp; what if anything is G=
M looking at in regard to a process. ? As Scott is speaking about&nbsp;&nbsp=
; They spent millions on the clean burn combustion that one of our late DEV=20=
showed them the first step 20 years ago. <BR>
<BR>
 The exhaust could be inhaled by humans without harm. You can now buy a fire=
 place at Lowes that is 99% EFF. What is difference between Nat gas and gaso=
line? Or are they in bed with the oil CO's?&nbsp; As they have been for 100=20=
years&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The only residue now with new advancements wou=
ld be clean carbon that your lawn would love.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That Tech. c=
an be feasible and now be closed loop with no exhaust needed. 20 years ago t=
here was a 92% ERG situation&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We are not going to dev. Because that process is obsolete to us&nbsp; But th=
e 2 cycle 4 cycle concept&nbsp; would be far better than what they have now.=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8 Cy Power 4 CY mileage With a 6 CY platform. YOU never c=
ommented on that DAN&nbsp; WHY?&nbsp; Because GM or SAE Eng.'s did not Dev.=20=
it.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 Delphi's chief Scientist had seen the diagram before when we showed it to h=
im. DAN did you call Delphi and verify i was for real ?????&nbsp; I gave you=
 the direct NO Tell the readers&nbsp; DAN HyOx is not going to fly. PERIOD S=
o why waste your time with it. The process is incorrect&nbsp; TELL us Dan wh=
o came up over plumbed cluster you know what anyway SAE Eng's.?&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
The correct way is to burn oxygen and have hydrogen as your by product. Does=
 that HyOx do that.?&nbsp; If not&nbsp; It is a turkey and you pull not push=
 the fuel. I have seen at Delphi the cluster you know what fuel pump deliver=
y systems they use. They are an Eng. nightmare. In the old days they had a s=
imple 20 dollar easy to change pull type pump. Now you have to drop the tank=
. To change a fuel pump&nbsp; My old 86 IROC&nbsp; Camero you also had to dr=
op the axle just to get to the tank. That makes total zero sense. <BR>
<BR>
 They could at least had an access from the trunk. NO that would have made s=
ense.&nbsp; In 1962 when I was 17 I left our summer home on the lake driving=
 a 1957 Chev convertible. I&nbsp; was driving back to the city to go to work=
 a 100 miles away on the 4 of July and my fuel pump started acting up and I=20=
stopped in a small town at a gas station that was open. I paid $10 to have a=
 simple to change&nbsp; rebuilt fuel pump installed in 20 minutes&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_162.1d27c246.2b9e7334_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:10:32 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: K. Wolf's results
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At 2:32 PM 3/10/3, Edmund Storms wrote:
>According to my reference book, Ag106 is a positron emitter with a half
>life of 24 min, but has a 8.28 day half-life for  511.9 KeV gamma
>emission.  I suspect the other gamma energies attributed to Ag106 by
>Passell must be caused by the 8.28 day transition.
>


The 74th edition of the CRC (1994) shows the 8.4 d half life for the
electron capture being the predominant decay mode, with Pd k-shell gammas
being at 0.4510, 0.61427, and 1.0458 MeV.  That seems to eliminate the
element X hypothesis.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:13:40 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:08:49 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:57:38 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 9:07 AM 3/9/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 7 Mar 2003 06:51:26 -0900:
>>Hi,
>>[snip]
>>
>>Actually, I think such a resolution would be accepted by France, Germany,
>>Russia, and China, and vetoed by the US.
>
>This was of course one of my feeble attempts at satire.  Continuing in that
>vein, I would agree that indeed a veto of the suggested resolution would be
>necessary from the USA because there is no way those countries could or
>would put up the necessary collateral.

How points of view can differ. I think the US administration would veto it, because they actually want war in Iraq, though the reason you state is no doubt the public face they would put on it.
(see http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html and
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm )
A short quote from the latter:
"Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise."

The problem with this is that the rest of the world doesn't want to be led by the US.
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:25:45 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: K. Wolf's results
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At 2:32 PM 3/10/3, Edmund Storms wrote:
>According to my reference book, Ag106 is a positron emitter with a half
>life of 24 min, but has a 8.28 day half-life for  511.9 KeV gamma
>emission.  I suspect the other gamma energies attributed to Ag106 by
>Passell must be caused by the 8.28 day transition.
>


The 74th edition of the CRC (1994) shows the 8.4 d half life for the
electron capture being the predominant decay mode, with Pd k-shell gammas
being at 0.4510, 0.61427, and 1.0458 MeV.  That seems to eliminate the
element X hypothesis.


Oooops.. The above is for the m isomer.  The principle decay for plain old
Ag106 is by positron emission with 24 m half-life.  Back to the element X
theory, or does CF create an isomer version of Ag106?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:32:57 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:25:10 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Recent LENR-CANR uploads
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Horace,
 
> This is proof that the Ag106 is the daugther product of another longer half  life decay.  Something else is being made that then decays into the Ag106. Call it isotope X. 

Yeah. I thought of that.  But at the start we have only Pd in the cathode and BNL doesn't list any possible parents. Pd-106  is stable. And a google search for parents turns up nada, except for the fission of U. 

K. Wolf list Ag-110 as the ONLY possible parent (only larger nuclide found). And 106 is not in the 110 decay chain, AFAIK

Do you have a more detailed table, or a suggestion as to what isotope x could be ?

There  is Rh -106  Half life: 29.80 S  Since it half-life is even shorter, that explanation doesn't work. Cd 106 is stable.

I think that there is likely to be no isotope x.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:33:14 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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At 10:08 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>The problem with this is that the rest of the world doesn't want to be led
>by the US.


OK, let's let the French lead.  Think their military is up to it?   Or will
they just provide a buch of empty rhetoric like UN 1441?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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> I am not sure where Beene read that the measurement was "taken ~42 days  later." Is that in one of Passell's viewgraphs? It says the run was 42 days  long and the fast neutron event was on day 22. That would make the analysis  20 days later, which is still a long time of course.


Right above Wolf's picture on page 6, "It indicated that in 1992, about six weeks after a Pons-Fleischmann-type cold fusion experiment was completed in Dr. Wolf's lab, at least one cathode was found to be inexplicably radioactive. Gamma rays from at least seven radionuclides were unmistakably observed.

  6*7*60=2520 half-life periods

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:51:13 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:45:52 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:28:51 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 10:08 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>The problem with this is that the rest of the world doesn't want to be led
>>by the US.
>
>
>OK, let's let the French lead.  Think their military is up to it?   Or will
>they just provide a buch of empty rhetoric like UN 1441?
[snip]
The problem lies in the very assumption that someone has to lead.
Like Americans, the other peoples of the world also value independence, and like to run their own affairs. This is why the UN was created. So that no single nation would "lord it" (play the lord and master) over any other.
In short precisely to prevent what the US now appears to be bent on doing.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:55:12 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:50:39 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: K. Wolf's results
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Right above Wolf's picture on page 6, "It indicated that in 1992, about 
>six weeks after a Pons-Fleischmann-type cold fusion experiment was 
>completed in Dr. Wolf's lab, at least one cathode was found to be 
>inexplicably radioactive. . . .

Ah, so . . . (as they say in Japanese). A shame they did not check earlier. 
But who would expect such a thing!

Let us prepare a set of questions about this and zap them off to Tom P. I 
plan to talk with him in early April.

- Jed


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Vorts,
I have just finished reading:
The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, by Kenneth Pollack.
I feel that it presents valuable insight into the Iraq problem and why we 
are reduced to having no good options. It is a well written and, I believe, 
a fair analysis of all the options.
Ron W


Some comments here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz092602.asp

--On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:33 AM +1100 Robin van Spaandonk 
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> In reply to  Horace Heffner's message:
> [snip]
>> their mistake.  If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US
>> will have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.
>>
> [snip]
> Should this "unlikely" event occur, just how does one go about
> apologising to a small child that has had a leg blown off by one of your
> bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may well be wrong? As for the
> true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed as one who
> has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament. May I suggest the you
> read some of the public statements being made by Scott Ritter. (see e.g.
> http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm ).
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> R. van Spaandonk
>
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
>
>


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<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><flushleft>Vorts,

I have just finished reading:

<bold>The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, by Kenneth =
Pollack.

</bold>I feel that it presents valuable insight into the Iraq problem and =
why we are reduced to having no good options. It is a well written and, I =
believe, a fair analysis of all the options.

Ron W



Some comments here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz092602.asp


--On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:33 AM +1100 Robin van Spaandonk =
<<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:


> In reply to  Horace Heffner's message:

> [snip]

>> their mistake.  If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US

>> will have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.

>>=20

> [snip]

> Should this "unlikely" event occur, just how does one go about

> apologising to a small child that has had a leg blown off by one of your

> bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may well be wrong? As for the

> true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed as one who

> has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament. May I suggest the you

> read some of the public statements being made by Scott Ritter. (see e.g.

> http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm ).

>=20

>=20

>=20

> Regards,

>=20

> R. van Spaandonk

>=20

> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted

> for the man that made it all possible.

>=20

> =20



--==========1229432219==========--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 16:04:36 2003
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To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: K. Wolf's results Tom P ???
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	Who is Tom P.  ?

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Jones Beene wrote:
> 
> >Right above Wolf's picture on page 6, "It indicated that in 1992, about 
> >six weeks after a Pons-Fleischmann-type cold fusion experiment was 
> >completed in Dr. Wolf's lab, at least one cathode was found to be 
> >inexplicably radioactive. . . .
> 
> Ah, so . . . (as they say in Japanese). A shame they did not check earlier. 
> But who would expect such a thing!
> 
> Let us prepare a set of questions about this and zap them off to Tom P. I 
> plan to talk with him in early April.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:33:40 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message:
[snip]
>their mistake.  If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US will
>have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.  
[snip]
Should this "unlikely" event occur, just how does one go about apologising to a small child that has had a leg blown off by one of your bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may well be wrong?
As for the true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed as one who has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament.
May I suggest the you read some of the public statements being made by Scott Ritter.
(see e.g. http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm ).



Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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Subject: Fwd: [free_energy] Re: A confused measurement
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In a message dated 3/10/03 5:59:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
guillet.francois wanadoo.fr writes:
             This guy in France  is correct Where and how can anybody come up 
with conclusions about anything scientific without first hand knowledge. That 
is my pet peeve about 98% of the current science thinking on this planet. OH 
I forgot they have a theory Which is WHAT> ??????  An opinion Nothing else.  

WELL  there response it has been written in a book for 100 years. SO WHAT it 
is still only an opinion. Response is Many experiments have been done to 
prove it. OK what if the premise was incorrect in the first place. ??? What 
if there were unknown or totally MIS understood aspects. CASE in point A new 
electrical  situation I have been presenting That colleges have saw 
operational     THERE responce is there cannot be anything new that could be 
discovered about electricity. MY respone  HOW many theory only types know 
squat about the operational dynamics side of A/C current ? Answer About ZERO 

> In free_energy yahoogroups.com, sbishopa@s... wrote:
> > ...
> > The lifter phenomenon is simply the flow of
> > electrons from the metal foil up to the positive high voltage 
> wires.  
> ...
> 
> You should make yourself experiments about lifter or at least study 
> what others made before saying such stupidities.
> 1) the kinetic energy of electrons would not be enough, far away.
> 2) how free electrons could flow through the air, there is no 
> electric arc?
> 3) in the latest experiment of JLN, the wire is in vacuum and there 
> is still a thrust
> 4) the last and not the least : when the wire is negative, the thrust 
> is always toward the wire!
> 
> The lifter theory is not simple. See the paper from Bahder (US Army 
> research Laboratory): http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0211001
> 
> FG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/10/0=
3 5:59:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, guillet.francois wanadoo.fr writes:<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;=20=
This guy in France&nbsp; is correct Where and how can anybody come up with c=
onclusions about anything scientific without first hand knowledge. That is m=
y pet peeve about 98% of the current science thinking on this planet. OH I f=
orgot they have a theory Which is WHAT&gt; ??????&nbsp; An opinion Nothing e=
lse.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
WELL&nbsp; there response it has been written in a book for 100 years. SO WH=
AT it is still only an opinion. Response is Many experiments have been done=20=
to prove it. OK what if the premise was incorrect in the first place. ??? Wh=
at if there were unknown or totally MIS understood aspects. CASE in point A=20=
new electrical&nbsp; situation I have been presenting That colleges have saw=
 operational&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THERE responce is there cannot be anyth=
ing new that could be discovered about electricity. MY respone&nbsp; HOW man=
y theory only types know squat about the operational dynamics side of A/C cu=
rrent ? Answer About ZERO </B><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In free_energy yahoogroups.com,=
 sbishopa s... wrote:<BR>
&gt; ...<BR>
&gt; The lifter phenomenon is simply the flow of<BR>
&gt; electrons from the metal foil up to the positive high voltage <BR>
wires.&nbsp; <BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
You should make yourself experiments about lifter or at least study <BR>
what others made before saying such stupidities.<BR>
1) the kinetic energy of electrons would not be enough, far away.<BR>
2) how free electrons could flow through the air, there is no <BR>
electric arc?<BR>
3) in the latest experiment of JLN, the wire is in vacuum and there <BR>
is still a thrust<BR>
4) the last and not the least : when the wire is negative, the thrust <BR>
is always toward the wire!<BR>
<BR>
The lifter theory is not simple. See the paper from Bahder (US Army <BR>
research Laboratory): http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0211001<BR>
<BR>
FG<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:39:37 -0000
Subject: [free_energy] Re: A confused measurement
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--- In free_energy yahoogroups.com, sbishopa@s... wrote:
> ...
> The lifter phenomenon is simply the flow of
> electrons from the metal foil up to the positive high voltage 
wires.  
...

You should make yourself experiments about lifter or at least study 
what others made before saying such stupidities.
1) the kinetic energy of electrons would not be enough, far away.
2) how free electrons could flow through the air, there is no 
electric arc?
3) in the latest experiment of JLN, the wire is in vacuum and there 
is still a thrust
4) the last and not the least : when the wire is negative, the thrust 
is always toward the wire!

The lifter theory is not simple. See the paper from Bahder (US Army 
research Laboratory): http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0211001

FG




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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:00:17 -0500
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Hi Fred.

Ahh, single shot. That makes somewhat more sense.

I'm still unclear as to why we should be expecting
fusion. No matter how high the voltage, all that
will be achieved in a dielectric is a polarizing
of it, once the spark initiates the actual voltage
drop from anode to cathode will be in the neighborhood
of 10 to 50 volts.

If you go the pressurized D2 route, I don't think
a fancy mercury cathode would be really necessary.
I've had excellent results with tungsten gaps and
H2, once the impurities burn off the gaps are pretty
stable. The point anode is going to present a problem
holding 50KV, if you've done this sort of thing
I'm curious how you get it to hold off such a high
voltage without breakover.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:30 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?


Hi Keith.  You wrote:


> Hi Fred.
>
> Almost all the voltage drop will be across the air gap,
> what do you gain by higher voltage?

I guess I wasn't clear. The electrode on the opposite side of the plate that
the wax
is on is in contact with the wax, and the voltage is run up to the breakdown
voltage
of the wax for a one-shot test to see if neutrons (etc)are generated with
low energy
breakdown pulses (580 million deg K   50 kilovolts).
I've seen 1/2 inch thick samples of "lucite" that were treated this way.


>You could put both
> electrodes in a container of molten wax, and agitate
> it to break up the resulting carbon tracks. I think
> the wax would contaminate too badly though.

Yes, or you could pressurize D2 to to 50 atm or more with a Hg pool as the
self-healing cathode and a needle point electrode as the anode. I figured
the wax
would be easier to work with, and might behave somewhat  like the "active
sites" (high
fields?) that Ed Storms sees in LENR-CANR experiments.
>
> Liquid D would probably be your best choice, "cold fusion"
> in the extreme!

Too hard to work with.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick
>
> K.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:25 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: Francis J. Stenger
> Subject: Re: Fusion With Deuterated GulfWax?
>
>
> A gram (approximately one cubic centimeter)of Deuterated Wax CnD(2n+2) or
> C(18-36D(38-74) contains at least 2 deuterons per carbon atom in the
> molecule, thus
> about 4e21 deuterons per gram, compared to D2O which contains about 6e22
> deuterons/gram.And melts at 110 - 145 degrees F or more, as compared to
> heavy ice that
> melts at ~ 32 deg F.
>
> http://www.i-sctc.com/paraffinwax.htm
>
> http://www.iconisotopes.com/www_iconisotopes_com.html
>
> This allows for the possibility of putting a thin coating of D-wax
(possibly
> laced
> with lithium or boron) on a metal
> substrate (Pd?) and applying a high electric field intensity with a point
> electrode by
> discharging a small high voltage capacitor or an automotive ignition coil
> (with energy
> 0.5 C*V^2 or 0.5 LI^2) through the thin D-wax dielectric film...?
>
> A one picofarad capacitor that could be made using metal plates separated
by
> mylar
> film or such, would provide a 1.25 millijoule pulse at 50 kilovolts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frederick
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 18:05:14 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:00:57 EST
Subject: [a-w-h] can you help me ??
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               SIR I see your in or near England I'm the founder of the 
Business side of a New evolutionary Tech. CO In the US that is in the 
planning stages. We will make Wind, solar you name it totally obsolete with 
new unknown futuristic power/energy Technologies   

WE are are seeking to obtain some samples of blue stone / lode Stone That 
came from a quarry I think in Southern Ireland that were used to some extent 
in the constructing of Stone Hedge. The material has natural Magnetic 
characteristics because England as Florida were once in Polar Regions Eon's 
ago. And were exposed to high intenisty natural magnetic fields  

 WE have some samples from the Coral Castle in Florida. We think there is 
another like material in the South Seas and will need to it time search for 
some possible new technology related materials in South America. THe reason 
we need samples is There are matrixes that exist for exotic presently unknown 
future situations But in order for them to become a  reality certain 
materials are needed  for that to occur. No I do not talk to  alien's  nor do 
I know anything about them. THis is a serious request         

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>SIR I see you=
r in or near England I'm the founder of the Business side of a New evolution=
ary Tech. CO In the US that is in the planning stages. We will make Wind, so=
lar you name it totally obsolete with new unknown futuristic power/energy Te=
chnologies&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
WE are are seeking to obtain some samples of blue stone / lode Stone That ca=
me from a quarry I think in Southern Ireland that were used to some extent i=
n the constructing of Stone Hedge. The material has natural Magnetic charact=
eristics because England as Florida were once in Polar Regions Eon's ago. An=
d were exposed to high intenisty natural magnetic fields&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 WE have some samples from the Coral Castle in Florida. We think there is an=
other like material in the South Seas and will need to it time search for so=
me possible new technology related materials in South America. THe reason we=
 need samples is There are matrixes that exist for exotic presently unknown=20=
future situations But in order for them to become a&nbsp; reality certain ma=
terials are needed&nbsp; for that to occur. No I do not talk to&nbsp; alien'=
s&nbsp; nor do I know anything about them. THis is a serious request&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </B></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 19:14:54 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:03:13 EST
Subject: [free_energy] Re: Free Energy in Nature (cross-post)
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In a message dated 3/10/03 12:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
BordersChess hotmail.com writes:


> An interesting cross-post from a related enrgy group...
> 
> 
> --- In OverUnity-Free_Energy yahoogroups.com, "adeonekonade" 
> <adeonekonade h...> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > As an interesting thought, I was wondering if people could provide 
> > some examples of Free Energy in nature, things to ponder..
> > 
> > Eg.
> > 
> > 1. The earth rotates and orbits the sun.  Is it perpetual?  Is the 
> > earth slowing down, is it speeding up?  Is the earth growing, or is 
> > it shrinking?  Or none of the above?
> 
> 
> The Earth's orbit around the Sun is slowly decaying -- eventually 
> (billions of years) the Earth will fall into the Sun (if the Sun does 
> not go supernova first, which is estimated to occur in about 5 
> billion years).  The same applies to the Moon's orbit around the 
> Earth -- I think I read somewhere that the Moon's orbital radius is 
> decreasing by a few centimeters or meters per year.
> 
> The Earth's mass is steadily increasing (although at an extremely 
> small rate) due to constant bombardment by meteorites, space dust, 
> and occassional comet fragments.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 2. What holds a magnet to keep it hanging upside down? Does not the 
> > magnet force holding the magnet against gravity defy work?  Is the 
> > magnet doing work against the gravity or is gravity doing work 
> > against the magnet?  Which will deplete first?
> 
> 
> Magnets do not perform work unless they are moved against a repulsive 
> force.  Work = force times distance.  This also applies to gravity -- 
> a rock sitting on the ground performs no work.  But a falling rock 
> (or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work.  Magnets can be used 
> to counteract gravitational forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my 
> shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no 
> work, and the gravitational force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed", 
> but rather *balanced*.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 3. What makes an atom spin? Does time and motion really stop at 0 
> > Kelvin?
> 
> 
> Atoms (nuclei and electrons) don't spin -- this is just a analogy for 
> abstract quantum properties that simply can not be explained in terms 
> of our everyday experience.  The term "electron spin" is used in 
> physics and chemistry, but quantum physiscists would say that this 
> does not refer to the conventional idea of spinning.  Likewise, 
> people talk about "electrons orbiting the nucleus", but electron 
> orbits are more accurately described as probability waves, or the 
> electron density around a nucleus (these "orbits" can have very 
> strange shapes with disconnected parts).
> 
> Translational motion (movement of entire atoms/molecules through 
> space) ceases at absolute zero (0 degrees K), but as indicated by 
> Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, some residual kinetic energy will 
> remain as vibrational flutuations of molecular bonds -- this is known 
> as the "vibrational zero-point energy".
> 
> Whether "time" stops at absolute zero is actually a philosophical 
> question since "time" is still a very slippery concept in physics.  
> Time would certainly continue from the point of view of an observer 
> outside of the absolute zero reference frame.  But if an observer 
> could exist at absolute zero (which is difficult to imagine!), 
> objective time might appear to stop, unless the observer could detect 
> the zero-point vibrational modes, would could serve as a clock.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 4. Where does the big bang come from? Explosion out of nothing? 
> > Energy from Nothing?
> 
> 
> In my understanding, no one knows, or can ever know, unless we can 
> somehow transcend physical reality (whatever that means).  The Big 
> Bang theory does not attempt to explain the cause of the BB, rather 
> it stipulates that the BB occured and partially explains the 
> universe's present structure.  Although, in the opinion of many, we 
> can never be absolutley certain that a theory is 100% correct and 
> complete, the BB theory is presently the one that best fits empirical 
> obsevations.
> 
> 
> Did we get a BIG BANG for free from the multi-
> > dimensional red light district?
> 
> 
> Some cosmologist have proposed that our universe is one among an 
> infinite (or very large) number of universes existing within 
> the "Meta-Universe".  Author C. Clarke's fascinating "Rama" science 
> fiction trilogy involves a scenario in which God creates many 
> universes (each with its own unique set of physical laws), and then 
> sends His agents into these universes to systematically collect 
> samples of "worthy" intelligent species (presumably developed via 
> evolutionary natural selection).  Unfortunately, it is difficult to 
> imagine how these alternate universes could be observed since they 
> exist in separate space-time continua!
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > The concept of "FREE ENRGY" is very misleading.
> 
> 
> Yes, especially since it has at least 3 different definitions 
> depending on who you ask.  The common usage amongst the "perpetual 
> motion" crowd is that it means violation of the 1st law of 
> thermodynamics, i.e. getting energy from nothing (or from a 
> mysterious source unknown to scinece).
> 
> The ecologically-minded would point to solar energy as being "free 
> energy" since it is very cheap, plentiful, and practically eternal.
> 
> In thermodynamics, "free energy" is a mathematically precise concept 
> which refers to the amount of energy available from a process to do 
> work (which is less than the formal energy content since some is lost 
> to entropy).
> 
> These are very interesting questions that you ask!
> 
> Leo C.
> 
> 
> 
>   really nothing is 
> > for free. Everything operates in cycles.  The tail feeds the head, 
> > what goes around, comes around.  OVERUNITY makes no sense, not in 
> the 
> > amplification of energy sense. Its about GOING with the FLOW, 
> tapping 
> > into the movements all around us, following the natural rhythms of 
> > the universe, and letting mother nature feed the sails of our ship 
> > into the future.
> > 
> > The use of a small amount of power as a leverage 
> > to "accumulate/attract/divert/capture" more energy.  Like fishing 
> > with a little fish on a hook to catch a big fish, or using a small 
> > log to ply and move a boulder, using a little energy to cause a 
> large 
> > energy transfer. A shout in the mountains that makes the avalanche 
> > fall.
> > 
> > Some more analogies? Please comment..
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Adeon
> > http://www.alzimach.net
> 
> 
> 
> To drop of the list, send email to:
> free_energy-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com  
> 
> 


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/10/0=
3 12:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, BordersChess hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">An interesting cross-post from=20=
a related enrgy group...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- In OverUnity-Free_Energy yahoogroups.com, "adeonekonade" <BR>
&lt;adeonekonade h...&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt; Hi All,<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; As an interesting thought, I was wondering if people could provide <BR>
&gt; some examples of Free Energy in nature, things to ponder..<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Eg.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; 1. The earth rotates and orbits the sun.&nbsp; Is it perpetual?&nbsp; I=
s the <BR>
&gt; earth slowing down, is it speeding up?&nbsp; Is the earth growing, or i=
s <BR>
&gt; it shrinking?&nbsp; Or none of the above?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The Earth's orbit around the Sun is slowly decaying -- eventually <BR>
(billions of years) the Earth will fall into the Sun (if the Sun does <BR>
not go supernova first, which is estimated to occur in about 5 <BR>
billion years).&nbsp; The same applies to the Moon's orbit around the <BR>
Earth -- I think I read somewhere that the Moon's orbital radius is <BR>
decreasing by a few centimeters or meters per year.<BR>
<BR>
The Earth's mass is steadily increasing (although at an extremely <BR>
small rate) due to constant bombardment by meteorites, space dust, <BR>
and occassional comet fragments.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; 2. What holds a magnet to keep it hanging upside down? Does not the <BR=
>
&gt; magnet force holding the magnet against gravity defy work?&nbsp; Is the=
 <BR>
&gt; magnet doing work against the gravity or is gravity doing work <BR>
&gt; against the magnet?&nbsp; Which will deplete first?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Magnets do not perform work unless they are moved against a repulsive <BR>
force.&nbsp; Work =3D force times distance.&nbsp; This also applies to gravi=
ty -- <BR>
a rock sitting on the ground performs no work.&nbsp; But a falling rock <BR>
(or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work.&nbsp; Magnets can be used <=
BR>
to counteract gravitational forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my <BR>
shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no <BR>
work, and the gravitational force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed", <BR>
but rather *balanced*.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; 3. What makes an atom spin? Does time and motion really stop at 0 <BR>
&gt; Kelvin?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Atoms (nuclei and electrons) don't spin -- this is just a analogy for <BR>
abstract quantum properties that simply can not be explained in terms <BR>
of our everyday experience.&nbsp; The term "electron spin" is used in <BR>
physics and chemistry, but quantum physiscists would say that this <BR>
does not refer to the conventional idea of spinning.&nbsp; Likewise, <BR>
people talk about "electrons orbiting the nucleus", but electron <BR>
orbits are more accurately described as probability waves, or the <BR>
electron density around a nucleus (these "orbits" can have very <BR>
strange shapes with disconnected parts).<BR>
<BR>
Translational motion (movement of entire atoms/molecules through <BR>
space) ceases at absolute zero (0 degrees K), but as indicated by <BR>
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, some residual kinetic energy will <BR>
remain as vibrational flutuations of molecular bonds -- this is known <BR>
as the "vibrational zero-point energy".<BR>
<BR>
Whether "time" stops at absolute zero is actually a philosophical <BR>
question since "time" is still a very slippery concept in physics.&nbsp; <BR=
>
Time would certainly continue from the point of view of an observer <BR>
outside of the absolute zero reference frame.&nbsp; But if an observer <BR>
could exist at absolute zero (which is difficult to imagine!), <BR>
objective time might appear to stop, unless the observer could detect <BR>
the zero-point vibrational modes, would could serve as a clock.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; 4. Where does the big bang come from? Explosion out of nothing? <BR>
&gt; Energy from Nothing?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In my understanding, no one knows, or can ever know, unless we can <BR>
somehow transcend physical reality (whatever that means).&nbsp; The Big <BR>
Bang theory does not attempt to explain the cause of the BB, rather <BR>
it stipulates that the BB occured and partially explains the <BR>
universe's present structure.&nbsp; Although, in the opinion of many, we <BR=
>
can never be absolutley certain that a theory is 100% correct and <BR>
complete, the BB theory is presently the one that best fits empirical <BR>
obsevations.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Did we get a BIG BANG for free from the multi-<BR>
&gt; dimensional red light district?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Some cosmologist have proposed that our universe is one among an <BR>
infinite (or very large) number of universes existing within <BR>
the "Meta-Universe".&nbsp; Author C. Clarke's fascinating "Rama" science <BR=
>
fiction trilogy involves a scenario in which God creates many <BR>
universes (each with its own unique set of physical laws), and then <BR>
sends His agents into these universes to systematically collect <BR>
samples of "worthy" intelligent species (presumably developed via <BR>
evolutionary natural selection).&nbsp; Unfortunately, it is difficult to <BR=
>
imagine how these alternate universes could be observed since they <BR>
exist in separate space-time continua!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; The concept of "FREE ENRGY" is very misleading.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes, especially since it has at least 3 different definitions <BR>
depending on who you ask.&nbsp; The common usage amongst the "perpetual <BR>
motion" crowd is that it means violation of the 1st law of <BR>
thermodynamics, i.e. getting energy from nothing (or from a <BR>
mysterious source unknown to scinece).<BR>
<BR>
The ecologically-minded would point to solar energy as being "free <BR>
energy" since it is very cheap, plentiful, and practically eternal.<BR>
<BR>
In thermodynamics, "free energy" is a mathematically precise concept <BR>
which refers to the amount of energy available from a process to do <BR>
work (which is less than the formal energy content since some is lost <BR>
to entropy).<BR>
<BR>
These are very interesting questions that you ask!<BR>
<BR>
Leo C.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; really nothing is <BR>
&gt; for free. Everything operates in cycles.&nbsp; The tail feeds the head,=
 <BR>
&gt; what goes around, comes around.&nbsp; OVERUNITY makes no sense, not in=20=
<BR>
the <BR>
&gt; amplification of energy sense. Its about GOING with the FLOW, <BR>
tapping <BR>
&gt; into the movements all around us, following the natural rhythms of <BR>
&gt; the universe, and letting mother nature feed the sails of our ship <BR>
&gt; into the future.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; The use of a small amount of power as a leverage <BR>
&gt; to "accumulate/attract/divert/capture" more energy.&nbsp; Like fishing=20=
<BR>
&gt; with a little fish on a hook to catch a big fish, or using a small <BR>
&gt; log to ply and move a boulder, using a little energy to cause a <BR>
large <BR>
&gt; energy transfer. A shout in the mountains that makes the avalanche <BR>
&gt; fall.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Some more analogies? Please comment..<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Regards<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Adeon<BR>
&gt; http://www.alzimach.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
To drop of the list, send email to:<BR>
free_energy-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:48:14 -0000
Subject: [free_energy] Re: Free Energy in Nature (cross-post)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


An interesting cross-post from a related enrgy group...


--- In OverUnity-Free_Energy yahoogroups.com, "adeonekonade" 
<adeonekonade h...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> As an interesting thought, I was wondering if people could provide 
> some examples of Free Energy in nature, things to ponder..
> 
> Eg.
> 
> 1. The earth rotates and orbits the sun.  Is it perpetual?  Is the 
> earth slowing down, is it speeding up?  Is the earth growing, or is 
> it shrinking?  Or none of the above?


The Earth's orbit around the Sun is slowly decaying -- eventually 
(billions of years) the Earth will fall into the Sun (if the Sun does 
not go supernova first, which is estimated to occur in about 5 
billion years).  The same applies to the Moon's orbit around the 
Earth -- I think I read somewhere that the Moon's orbital radius is 
decreasing by a few centimeters or meters per year.

The Earth's mass is steadily increasing (although at an extremely 
small rate) due to constant bombardment by meteorites, space dust, 
and occassional comet fragments.


> 
> 2. What holds a magnet to keep it hanging upside down? Does not the 
> magnet force holding the magnet against gravity defy work?  Is the 
> magnet doing work against the gravity or is gravity doing work 
> against the magnet?  Which will deplete first?


Magnets do not perform work unless they are moved against a repulsive 
force.  Work = force times distance.  This also applies to gravity -- 
a rock sitting on the ground performs no work.  But a falling rock 
(or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work.  Magnets can be used 
to counteract gravitational forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my 
shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no 
work, and the gravitational force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed", 
but rather *balanced*.


> 
> 3. What makes an atom spin? Does time and motion really stop at 0 
> Kelvin?


Atoms (nuclei and electrons) don't spin -- this is just a analogy for 
abstract quantum properties that simply can not be explained in terms 
of our everyday experience.  The term "electron spin" is used in 
physics and chemistry, but quantum physiscists would say that this 
does not refer to the conventional idea of spinning.  Likewise, 
people talk about "electrons orbiting the nucleus", but electron 
orbits are more accurately described as probability waves, or the 
electron density around a nucleus (these "orbits" can have very 
strange shapes with disconnected parts).

Translational motion (movement of entire atoms/molecules through 
space) ceases at absolute zero (0 degrees K), but as indicated by 
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, some residual kinetic energy will 
remain as vibrational flutuations of molecular bonds -- this is known 
as the "vibrational zero-point energy".

Whether "time" stops at absolute zero is actually a philosophical 
question since "time" is still a very slippery concept in physics.  
Time would certainly continue from the point of view of an observer 
outside of the absolute zero reference frame.  But if an observer 
could exist at absolute zero (which is difficult to imagine!), 
objective time might appear to stop, unless the observer could detect 
the zero-point vibrational modes, would could serve as a clock.


> 
> 4. Where does the big bang come from? Explosion out of nothing? 
> Energy from Nothing?


In my understanding, no one knows, or can ever know, unless we can 
somehow transcend physical reality (whatever that means).  The Big 
Bang theory does not attempt to explain the cause of the BB, rather 
it stipulates that the BB occured and partially explains the 
universe's present structure.  Although, in the opinion of many, we 
can never be absolutley certain that a theory is 100% correct and 
complete, the BB theory is presently the one that best fits empirical 
obsevations.


 Did we get a BIG BANG for free from the multi-
> dimensional red light district?


Some cosmologist have proposed that our universe is one among an 
infinite (or very large) number of universes existing within 
the "Meta-Universe".  Author C. Clarke's fascinating "Rama" science 
fiction trilogy involves a scenario in which God creates many 
universes (each with its own unique set of physical laws), and then 
sends His agents into these universes to systematically collect 
samples of "worthy" intelligent species (presumably developed via 
evolutionary natural selection).  Unfortunately, it is difficult to 
imagine how these alternate universes could be observed since they 
exist in separate space-time continua!



> 
> The concept of "FREE ENRGY" is very misleading.


Yes, especially since it has at least 3 different definitions 
depending on who you ask.  The common usage amongst the "perpetual 
motion" crowd is that it means violation of the 1st law of 
thermodynamics, i.e. getting energy from nothing (or from a 
mysterious source unknown to scinece).

The ecologically-minded would point to solar energy as being "free 
energy" since it is very cheap, plentiful, and practically eternal.

In thermodynamics, "free energy" is a mathematically precise concept 
which refers to the amount of energy available from a process to do 
work (which is less than the formal energy content since some is lost 
to entropy).

These are very interesting questions that you ask!

Leo C.



  really nothing is 
> for free. Everything operates in cycles.  The tail feeds the head, 
> what goes around, comes around.  OVERUNITY makes no sense, not in 
the 
> amplification of energy sense. Its about GOING with the FLOW, 
tapping 
> into the movements all around us, following the natural rhythms of 
> the universe, and letting mother nature feed the sails of our ship 
> into the future.
> 
> The use of a small amount of power as a leverage 
> to "accumulate/attract/divert/capture" more energy.  Like fishing 
> with a little fish on a hook to catch a big fish, or using a small 
> log to ply and move a boulder, using a little energy to cause a 
large 
> energy transfer. A shout in the mountains that makes the avalanche 
> fall.
> 
> Some more analogies? Please comment..
> 
> Regards
> 
> Adeon
> http://www.alzimach.net



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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:59:15 EST
Subject:  Free Energy in Nature   I Nailed Leo to a cross 
To: BordersChess hotmail.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com
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In a message dated 3/10/03 12:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
BordersChess hotmail.com writes:


> Magnets do not perform work unless they are moved against a repulsive 
> force.  Work = force times distance.  This also applies to gravity -- 
> a rock sitting on the ground performs no work.  But a falling rock 
> (or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work.  Magnets can be used 
> to counteract gravitational forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my 
> shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no 
> work, and the gravitational force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed", 
> but rather *balanced*.
> 
>        REPLY  FYI Leo    I show a physical visual demo that Hal Fox, The 
> chief scientist of the Delphi Corp The Executive Dean of the 50 million 
> dollar Tech. Center have all  seen. It really freaked Delphi out. The demo 
> was stationary magnetism conducting physical work. Leo that is an entire 
> new evolutionary science fiction level Theory that can be proved.  WHAT 
> does that do to your physics ?????? 

   If so you will be eating it  I have been waiting for a fish like you to 
come along. YOU never make a 
> judgment without investigating FIRST. YOU never ever rely on what some math 
> book tells you. Because as now it will come back to haunt you sooner or 
> later. This is just the beginning   

   NOW have you got the point Mr. Ph.D.  LEO> ????  THis is part of the 
systimatic process of demolishing and 
> creating the demise of the know it all thinking that exist's  in main stream 
> science. Instead of thinking in negeative terms all the time.  And letting 
> your giant counter productive roadblock  Ego's get in your way as you 
> usually do  Think positive for once. How often do you get a chance to 
> really evolve?  

    All i see is combative attitudes because I do not speak in scientific. WE 
are going to have a new way boys. New situations  > will be stated in simple 
> terms so all can understand. He who holds the hammer will decide how it 
> will be used. If I can accomplish what  was stated Guess who holds the 
> hammer????????      
> 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/10/0=
3 12:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, BordersChess hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Magnets do not perform work unl=
ess they are moved against a repulsive <BR>
force.&nbsp; Work =3D force times distance.&nbsp; This also applies to gravi=
ty -- <BR>
a rock sitting on the ground performs no work.&nbsp; But a falling rock <BR>
(or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work.&nbsp; Magnets can be used <=
BR>
to counteract gravitational forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my <BR>
shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no <BR>
work, and the gravitational force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed", <BR>
but rather *balanced*.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; FYI Leo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; I show a physical visual demo that Hal Fox, The chief scientist of the Del=
phi Corp The Executive Dean of the 50 million dollar Tech. Center have all&n=
bsp; seen. It really freaked Delphi out. The demo was stationary magnetism c=
onducting physical work. Leo that is an entire new evolutionary science fict=
ion level Theory that can be proved.&nbsp; WHAT does that do to your physics=
 ?????? </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR=
>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> If so you wi=
ll be eating it&nbsp; I have been waiting for a fish like you to come along.=
 YOU never make a </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=
 #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>judgment without investigating FIRST. YOU never ever rel=
y on what some math book tells you. Because as now it will come back to haun=
t you sooner or later. This is just the beginning&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> NOW have you=
 got the point Mr. Ph.D.&nbsp; LEO&gt; ????&nbsp; THis is part of the systim=
atic process of demolishing and </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE styl=
e=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PA=
DDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>creating the demise of the know it all thinking that exi=
st's&nbsp; in main stream science. Instead of thinking in negeative terms al=
l the time.&nbsp; And letting your giant counter productive roadblock&nbsp;=20=
Ego's get in your way as you usually do&nbsp; Think positive for once. How o=
ften do you get a chance to really evolve?&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000=
000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>All i=20=
see is combative attitudes because I do not speak in scientific. WE are goin=
g to have a new way boys. New situations&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=
=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px">will be stated in simple terms so all can understand. He who=
 holds the hammer will decide how it will be used. If I can accomplish what&=
nbsp; was stated Guess who holds the hammer????????&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</B><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:25:10 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

In a round about way, Horace may be correct nevertheless. An alternative to
creation through decay from a heavier isotope, would be a process whereby
the isotope was created in situ from other products.
A slowly proceeding reaction based on hydrinos or deuterinos might do the trick, e.g.

Pd105 + Hydrino -> Ag106 + energetic electron (or gamma ray?).

or 
Pd105 + Deuterino -> Ag106 + n where the neutron wanders off eventually making something else radioactive, though the reaction

Pd105 + Deuterino -> Pd106 + H seems more likely being energetically more
favourable.

The rate at which the reaction progressed would depend on the degree to which the hydrinos/deuterinos had shrunk. If they had shrunk to somewhere between
the ~16th and 24th levels, then they would still retain an electron, resulting in a negative ion, and preventing them from escaping from the cathode.
This small heavy negative particle might go into orbit around heavier nuclei, displacing one the heavier atoms own electrons, until such time as fusion eventually occurred between it and the nucleus (analogous to muon catalyzed fusion).

>Horace,
> 
>> This is proof that the Ag106 is the daugther product of another longer half  life decay.  Something else is being made that then decays into the Ag106. Call it isotope X. 
>
>Yeah. I thought of that.  But at the start we have only Pd in the cathode and BNL doesn't list any possible parents. Pd-106  is stable. And a google search for parents turns up nada, except for the fission of U. 
>
>K. Wolf list Ag-110 as the ONLY possible parent (only larger nuclide found). And 106 is not in the 110 decay chain, AFAIK
>
>Do you have a more detailed table, or a suggestion as to what isotope x could be ?
>
>There  is Rh -106  Half life: 29.80 S  Since it half-life is even shorter, that explanation doesn't work. Cd 106 is stable.
>
>I think that there is likely to be no isotope x.
>
>Jones

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 10 21:45:18 2003
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On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:

> ERic Krieg  asked me to join his skeptic site probably thinking the
> sharks would eat me alive.

Why would he think that?  Some people are very poor at guessing what
others are really thinking.  I've known Mr. Kreig for years.  He gives
inventors every chance to prove their claims.  He's honestly looking for
energy devices which really work.

> When it was I that eat them alive i was  banned.

If you behave badly on an online forum, the moderator will probably kick
you off.  "Badly" includes a constant stream of insults.

> i made sush a fool out of him to the point that he has almost become a
> supporter by helping me anyway he can. . Bill with these people
> screaming about me to the extent they are,

They're complaining about your behavior.  People who spew insults on the
internet are very common.  The usual name for this behavior is "flaming."

> because I'm must be upsetting their physics apple carts

I thought you were keeping all the information secret.  How can you upset
anyone if proprietary considerations prevent you from presenting any
evidence that you are right?

> why haven't i been banned from this one.

Because I hate throwing people off the forum, but I eventually take
action.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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LOl.. tehe.. I think we are on a very similar wave length Jack.. Maybe comin=
g at things from different angles..  Heres my reply form the orginal forum I=
 posted that in..

Dear Leo, thanks for the informative response.. My comments below..
<snip>

> a rock sitting on the ground performs no work. But a falling rock=20
> (or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work. Magnets can be=20
used=20
> to counteract gravitational force (e.g., the magnet holding up my=20
> shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no=20
> work, and the gravitaional force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed",=20
> but rather *balanced*.

I would have to disagree with this, in that the system is not=20
balanced. It is infact biased toward the magnet. I.e. the Magnet is=20
doing work, it is working against gravity with an excess of power.=20
Eg. It is holding up your shopping list too.. Magnetism is energy in=20
a different form. Just like we have multiple forms of Gases and=20
Elements, energy too comes in multiple forms, bio energy, electrical=20
energy, magnetic energy, heat energy, chi energy.

However I fully agree, you cannot create something out of nothing.=20
That is not to say materialisation or the illusion of something out=20
of nothing can not happen. Just like the 0 Kelvin spin analogy. It=20
is said to Stop Time at 0 Kelvin, yeh there is still the zero point=20
resonance. Time is percieved in a very basic/physical way by=20
science, and soon people will start to realise exactly as you hint=20
that Time is an Effect of motion/movement and change. Change creates=20
Time, not the other way around. Change is cyclic, so is time.

I know you will probably say, these are all just "fanciful ideas" but=20
should you wish build a house, you go and see a builder, should you=20
wish to build an electronics device, you go and see and electronics=20
engineer. HOWEVER if you want to uncover the secrets of energy and=20
the universe you need to go to the creator, the original source and=20
feel it first hand. I am a QiGong adept, which dates back to ancient=20
China 6000bce in the use of Chi energy. (All the Martial/Chi arts=20
srprung from this, Tai Chi, Kung Fu etc. Although it is not a=20
fighting style, it is a science. Like all sciences it can also be=20
used for war [sad] ). Many major discoveries have come from "Altered=20
States" of conciousness, from "sceintists" who open themselves up=20
to "god" and partake in the natural flow of cosmic energy.

So I believe modern science on it own, lacks the ability to provide=20
the solutions we now require, the limit of rational thinking has been=20
reached and we need to go beyond ourselves. How can you tap into the=20
energy flows of the universe if you do not know it exists? How=20
canone expect to connect to the creative forces of the universe if=20
they have turned your back on "god" ? They cannot, instead they=20
develop destruction. You do not need god to destroy something.. Man=20
is fully capable of devising such stratergies..

Yet I also love science, and believe we also need it.. To combine the=20
two is very powerfull. I long for the day when man can put his=20
thoughts away from greed, money and material things and persue the=20
greater deeper spiritual truths, then you will see true evolution,=20
not our flawed and material concept of it that we honour today.

If you doubt what I am saying.. well I suggest you investigate some=20
of the great "evolutionary" spikes of science. Right back from=20
Pythagoras day to the modern era, to Bohrs discovery of basic atomic=20
model, and now even to Super String Theory. While non are perfect,=20
due to nature of mans mind, they are/were steps toward greater=20
understand. When a man says "I" thought of this, this is "MY" idea..=20
he cuts himself off, and the ego takes over the idea and it becomes=20
confusion, and no knew knowledge is gained until the next adept comes=20
along. Perhaps in another generation, perhaps the same, perhaps many=20
all at once.

Time is only relative to the physical.



> Some cosmologist have proposed that our universe is one among an=20
> infinite number of universes existing within the "Meta-universe".=20
> Author C. Clarke's fascinating "Rama" science fiction trilogy is=20
> based on a scenario in which God creates many universes (each with=20
> its own unique set of physical laws), and them sends His agents=20
into=20
> these universes to systematically collect samples of "worthy"=20
> intelligent species (developing via evolutionary natural=20
selection).=20
> Unfortunately, it is difficult to imagine how these alternate=20
> universes could be observed since they exist in separate space-time=20
> continua!

This is the teaching of Krishna/Hindu "Mythos".. In a new Wrapper..=20
Funny how super string theory came out of India.. Other universes out=20
of Phase, different harmonics. Perhaps modern science should have=20
headed the teachings of the original Super String author and=20
maintained a 8 phase harmonic construct, instead of changing to Ten..=20
Again ego kicks in and the mind of man corrupts the true knowledge.=20
Doe Re Mi Fa So La Ti DOE. Red, Orange, Yellow, Blue, Magenta,=20
Violet, White, RED.. Do you see a pattern, a cycle.. Sound and light=20
are one and the same, just a different harmonic, one within the=20
other. Just as is energy, and matter.. Like a fractal, wheels within=20
wheels, yet the construct is the same. 1-7(8)

Leo you are a smart and nice person, who took the time to answer my=20
simple questions.. I am sure you understand what I am saying in the=20
following..(below quote). This is where we need to look for alternate=20
energy sources.. Not in fossil fuels but in the background flows of=20
creative energy. (Not physical matter) But science will never find=20
it, while the scientists have closed eyes..

>=20
> really nothing is=20
> > for free. Everything operates in cycles. The tail feeds the=20
head,=20
> > what goes around, comes around. OVERUNITY makes no sense, not in=20
> the=20
> > amplification of energy sense. Its about GOING with the FLOW,=20
> tapping=20
> > into the movements all around us, following the natural rhythms=20
of=20
> > the universe, and letting mother nature feed the sails of our=20
ship=20
> > into the future.
> >=20
> > The use of a small amount of power as a leverage=20
> > to "accumulate/attract/divert/capture" more energy. Like fishing=20
> > with a little fish on a hook to catch a big fish, or using a=20
small=20
> > log to ply and move a boulder, using a little energy to cause a=20
> large=20
> > energy transfer. A shout in the mountains that makes the=20
avalanche=20
> > fall.

Regards

Adeon
http://www.alzimach.net

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JCarey9622 aol.com=20
  To: BordersChess hotmail.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com ; eric@voicenet.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:59 PM
  Subject: Free Energy in Nature I Nailed Leo to a cross=20


  In a message dated 3/10/03 12:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, BordersChess=
 hotmail.com writes:



    Magnets do not perform work unless they are moved against a repulsive=20
    force.  Work =3D force times distance.  This also applies to gravity --=20
    a rock sitting on the ground performs no work.  But a falling rock=20
    (or waterfall) can be harnessed to perform work.  Magnets can be used=20
    to counteract gravitational forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my=20
    shopping list on the door of my refrigerator), but this involves no=20
    work, and the gravitational force is not "cancelled" or "destroyed",=20
    but rather *balanced*.

           REPLY  FYI Leo    I show a physical visual demo that Hal Fox, The=
 chief scientist of the Delphi Corp The Executive Dean of the 50 million dol=
lar Tech. Center have all  seen. It really freaked Delphi out. The demo was=20=
stationary magnetism conducting physical work. Leo that is an entire new evo=
lutionary science fiction level Theory that can be proved.  WHAT does that d=
o to your physics ??????=20


     If so you will be eating it  I have been waiting for a fish like you to=
 come along. YOU never make a=20

    judgment without investigating FIRST. YOU never ever rely on what some m=
ath book tells you. Because as now it will come back to haunt you sooner or=20=
later. This is just the beginning  =20


     NOW have you got the point Mr. Ph.D.  LEO> ????  THis is part of the sy=
stimatic process of demolishing and=20

    creating the demise of the know it all thinking that exist's  in main st=
ream science. Instead of thinking in negeative terms all the time.  And lett=
ing your giant counter productive roadblock  Ego's get in your way as you us=
ually do  Think positive for once. How often do you get a chance to really e=
volve? =20


      All i see is combative attitudes because I do not speak in scientific.=
 WE are going to have a new way boys. New situations =20
    will be stated in simple terms so all can understand. He who holds the h=
ammer will decide how it will be used. If I can accomplish what  was stated=20=
Guess who holds the hammer????????     =20





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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>LOl.. tehe.. I think we are on a very simil=
ar wave=20
length Jack.. Maybe coming at things from different angles..&nbsp; Heres my=20
reply form the orginal forum I posted that in..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Dear Leo, thanks for the informative respons=
e.. My=20
comments below..<BR>&lt;snip&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; a rock sitting on the ground=20
performs no work. But a falling rock <BR>&gt; (or waterfall) can be harnesse=
d to=20
perform work. Magnets can be <BR>used <BR>&gt; to counteract gravitational f=
orce=20
(e.g., the magnet holding up my <BR>&gt; shopping list on the door of my=20
refrigerator), but this involves no <BR>&gt; work, and the gravitaional forc=
e is=20
not "cancelled" or "destroyed", <BR>&gt; but rather *balanced*.<BR><BR>I wou=
ld=20
have to disagree with this, in that the system is not <BR>balanced. It is in=
fact=20
biased toward the magnet. I.e. the Magnet is <BR>doing work, it is working=20
against gravity with an excess of power. <BR>Eg. It is holding up your shopp=
ing=20
list too.. Magnetism is energy in <BR>a different form. Just like we have=20
multiple forms of Gases and <BR>Elements, energy too comes in multiple forms=
,=20
bio energy, electrical <BR>energy, magnetic energy, heat energy, chi=20
energy.<BR><BR>However I fully agree, you cannot create something out of=20
nothing. <BR>That is not to say materialisation or the illusion of something=
 out=20
<BR>of nothing can not happen. Just like the 0 Kelvin spin analogy. It <BR>i=
s=20
said to Stop Time at 0 Kelvin, yeh there is still the zero point <BR>resonan=
ce.=20
Time is percieved in a very basic/physical way by <BR>science, and soon peop=
le=20
will start to realise exactly as you hint <BR>that Time is an Effect of=20
motion/movement and change. Change creates <BR>Time, not the other way aroun=
d.=20
Change is cyclic, so is time.<BR><BR>I know you will probably say, these are=
 all=20
just "fanciful ideas" but <BR>should you wish build a house, you go and see=20=
a=20
builder, should you <BR>wish to build an electronics device, you go and see=20=
and=20
electronics <BR>engineer. HOWEVER if you want to uncover the secrets of ener=
gy=20
and <BR>the universe you need to go to the creator, the original source and=20
<BR>feel it first hand. I am a QiGong adept, which dates back to ancient=20
<BR>China 6000bce in the use of Chi energy. (All the Martial/Chi arts=20
<BR>srprung from this, Tai Chi, Kung Fu etc. Although it is not a <BR>fighti=
ng=20
style, it is a science. Like all sciences it can also be <BR>used for war [s=
ad]=20
). Many major discoveries have come from "Altered <BR>States" of conciousnes=
s,=20
from "sceintists" who open themselves up <BR>to "god" and partake in the nat=
ural=20
flow of cosmic energy.<BR><BR>So I believe modern science on it own, lacks t=
he=20
ability to provide <BR>the solutions we now require, the limit of rational=20
thinking has been <BR>reached and we need to go beyond ourselves. How can yo=
u=20
tap into the <BR>energy flows of the universe if you do not know it exists?=20=
How=20
<BR>canone expect to connect to the creative forces of the universe if <BR>t=
hey=20
have turned your back on "god" ? They cannot, instead they <BR>develop=20
destruction. You do not need god to destroy something.. Man <BR>is fully cap=
able=20
of devising such stratergies..<BR><BR>Yet I also love science, and believe w=
e=20
also need it.. To combine the <BR>two is very powerfull. I long for the day=20=
when=20
man can put his <BR>thoughts away from greed, money and material things and=20
persue the <BR>greater deeper spiritual truths, then you will see true=20
evolution, <BR>not our flawed and material concept of it that we honour=20
today.<BR><BR>If you doubt what I am saying.. well I suggest you investigate=
=20
some <BR>of the great "evolutionary" spikes of science. Right back from=20
<BR>Pythagoras day to the modern era, to Bohrs discovery of basic atomic=20
<BR>model, and now even to Super String Theory. While non are perfect, <BR>d=
ue=20
to nature of mans mind, they are/were steps toward greater <BR>understand. W=
hen=20
a man says "I" thought of this, this is "MY" idea.. <BR>he cuts himself off,=
 and=20
the ego takes over the idea and it becomes <BR>confusion, and no knew knowle=
dge=20
is gained until the next adept comes <BR>along. Perhaps in another generatio=
n,=20
perhaps the same, perhaps many <BR>all at once.<BR><BR>Time is only relative=
 to=20
the physical.<BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; Some cosmologist have proposed that our=20
universe is one among an <BR>&gt; infinite number of universes existing with=
in=20
the "Meta-universe". <BR>&gt; Author C. Clarke's fascinating "Rama" science=20
fiction trilogy is <BR>&gt; based on a scenario in which God creates many=20
universes (each with <BR>&gt; its own unique set of physical laws), and them=
=20
sends His agents <BR>into <BR>&gt; these universes to systematically collect=
=20
samples of "worthy" <BR>&gt; intelligent species (developing via evolutionar=
y=20
natural <BR>selection). <BR>&gt; Unfortunately, it is difficult to imagine h=
ow=20
these alternate <BR>&gt; universes could be observed since they exist in=20
separate space-time <BR>&gt; continua!<BR><BR>This is the teaching of=20
Krishna/Hindu "Mythos".. In a new Wrapper.. <BR>Funny how super string theor=
y=20
came out of India.. Other universes out <BR>of Phase, different harmonics.=20
Perhaps modern science should have <BR>headed the teachings of the original=20
Super String author and <BR>maintained a 8 phase harmonic construct, instead=
 of=20
changing to Ten.. <BR>Again ego kicks in and the mind of man corrupts the tr=
ue=20
knowledge. <BR>Doe Re Mi Fa So La Ti DOE. Red, Orange, Yellow, Blue, Magenta=
,=20
<BR>Violet, White, RED.. Do you see a pattern, a cycle.. Sound and light <BR=
>are=20
one and the same, just a different harmonic, one within the <BR>other. Just=20=
as=20
is energy, and matter.. Like a fractal, wheels within <BR>wheels, yet the=20
construct is the same. 1-7(8)<BR><BR>Leo you are a smart and nice person, wh=
o=20
took the time to answer my <BR>simple questions.. I am sure you understand w=
hat=20
I am saying in the <BR>following..(below quote). This is where we need to lo=
ok=20
for alternate <BR>energy sources.. Not in fossil fuels but in the background=
=20
flows of <BR>creative energy. (Not physical matter) But science will never f=
ind=20
<BR>it, while the scientists have closed eyes..<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; really=20
nothing is <BR>&gt; &gt; for free. Everything operates in cycles. The tail f=
eeds=20
the <BR>head, <BR>&gt; &gt; what goes around, comes around. OVERUNITY makes=20=
no=20
sense, not in <BR>&gt; the <BR>&gt; &gt; amplification of energy sense. Its=20
about GOING with the FLOW, <BR>&gt; tapping <BR>&gt; &gt; into the movements=
 all=20
around us, following the natural rhythms <BR>of <BR>&gt; &gt; the universe,=20=
and=20
letting mother nature feed the sails of our <BR>ship <BR>&gt; &gt; into the=20
future.<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; The use of a small amount of power as a=20
leverage <BR>&gt; &gt; to "accumulate/attract/divert/capture" more energy. L=
ike=20
fishing <BR>&gt; &gt; with a little fish on a hook to catch a big fish, or u=
sing=20
a <BR>small <BR>&gt; &gt; log to ply and move a boulder, using a little ener=
gy=20
to cause a <BR>&gt; large <BR>&gt; &gt; energy transfer. A shout in the=20
mountains that makes the <BR>avalanche <BR>&gt; &gt;=20
fall.<BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Adeon<BR></FONT><A   href=3D"http://www.alzimach=
.net/"><FONT   face=3D"Courier New">http://www.alzimach.net</FONT></A><BR></=
DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE  >
  <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV    ><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DJCarey9622 aol.com     href=3D"mailto:JCarey9622@aol.com">JCare=
y9622 aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3DBordersChess hotmail.com     href=3D"mailto:Bor=
dersChess hotmail.com">BordersChess@hotmail.com</A> ; <A     title=3Dvortex-=
l eskimo.com     href=3D"mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A>=
 ; <A     title=3Deric voicenet.com href=3D"mailto:eric@voicenet.com">eric@v=
oicenet.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:59=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Free Energy in Nature I Nailed=20
  Leo to a cross </DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In a message da=
ted=20
  3/10/03 12:49:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, <A     href=3D"mailto:BordersCh=
ess hotmail.com">BordersChess@hotmail.com</A>=20
  writes:<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE         TYPE=3D"CITE">Magnets do not perform work unless they=20=
are moved against a=20
    repulsive <BR>force.&nbsp; Work =3D force times distance.&nbsp; This als=
o=20
    applies to gravity -- <BR>a rock sitting on the ground performs no=20
    work.&nbsp; But a falling rock <BR>(or waterfall) can be harnessed to=20
    perform work.&nbsp; Magnets can be used <BR>to counteract gravitational=20
    forces (e.g., the magnet holding up my <BR>shopping list on the door of=20=
my=20
    refrigerator), but this involves no <BR>work, and the gravitational forc=
e is=20
    not "cancelled" or "destroyed", <BR>but rather=20
    *balanced*.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B>&nbsp; REPLY&nbsp; F=
YI=20
    Leo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I show a physical visual demo that Hal Fox, The ch=
ief=20
    scientist of the Delphi Corp The Executive Dean of the 50 million dollar=
=20
    Tech. Center have all&nbsp; seen. It really freaked Delphi out. The demo=
 was=20
    stationary magnetism conducting physical work. Leo that is an entire new=
=20
    evolutionary science fiction level Theory that can be proved.&nbsp; WHAT=
=20
    does that do to your physics ?????? </FONT><FONT lang=3D0       face=3DA=
rial color=3D#000000 size=3D2       FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><B=
R><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0     face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2     FA=
MILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> If so you will be eating it&nbsp; I have=20
  been waiting for a fish like you to come along. YOU never make a </FONT><F=
ONT     lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2     FAMILY=3D"SANSSER=
IF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0     face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20=
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE         TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>judgment without investigating FIRST.=
 YOU never ever rely on=20
    what some math book tells you. Because as now it will come back to haunt=
 you=20
    sooner or later. This is just the beginning&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT lan=
g=3D0       face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2       FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0     face=3DArial color=3D#00=
0000 size=3D2     FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;<B> NOW have you got the=20=
point Mr. Ph.D.&nbsp;=20
  LEO&gt; ????&nbsp; THis is part of the systimatic process of demolishing a=
nd=20
  </FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000     size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"=
SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0     face=3DArial color=3D#000000 si=
ze=3D2     FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE         TYPE=3D"CITE"><B>creating the demise of the know it al=
l thinking that=20
    exist's&nbsp; in main stream science. Instead of thinking in negeative t=
erms=20
    all the time.&nbsp; And letting your giant counter productive=20
    roadblock&nbsp; Ego's get in your way as you usually do&nbsp; Think posi=
tive=20
    for once. How often do you get a chance to really evolve?&nbsp; </FONT><=
FONT       lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2       FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0     face=3DArial col=
or=3D#000000 size=3D2     FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <B>All i s=
ee is combative attitudes=20
  because I do not speak in scientific. WE are going to have a new way boys.=
 New=20
  situations&nbsp;=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE         TYPE=3D"CITE">will be stated in simple terms so all ca=
n understand. He who=20
    holds the hammer will decide how it will be used. If I can accomplish=20
    what&nbsp; was stated Guess who holds the=20
    hammer????????&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></B><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Moderator:  Carey device going to vortexB
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The "Carey device" thread and namecalling has dominated the forum for long
enough.  I'm moving it to vortexB-L.  Anyone who wishes to continue the
conversation can subscribe (many vortex-L subscribers are already on
vortexB).  The archive is here:

  http://www.amasci.com/weird/vtxb2000.txt

vortexB-L eskimo.com is a separate e-list created in 1998 for any
conversations or incivility drawing widespread complaints on vortex-L.

Vortex-L is somewhat civilized, while VortexB-L is the no-rules version
with no limits on subject matter or "flamewars."  You can subscribe to
vortexB-L, vortex-L, both or neither.  The subscribe/unsubscribe commands
are similar:  send a blank mesage with either "subscribe" or "unsubscribe"
in the SUBJECT line, send it to vortexB-L-request eskimo.com


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci



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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030305144824.00a92be8 pop.mindspring.com>	
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:57:38 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: K. Wolf's results
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Jones Breene posted;

And Ed Storms responded;

>According to my reference book, Ag106 is a positron emitter with a 
>half life of 24 min, but has a 8.28 day half-life for  511.9 KeV 
>gamma emission.  I suspect the other gamma energies attributed to 
>Ag106 by Passell must be caused by the 8.28 day transition.
>
>  > Get the "silver bullet" picture, now?

Did he find any silver, or are you speculating?

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" 

Hi,

> In a round about way, Horace may be correct nevertheless. An alternative to
> creation through decay from a heavier isotope, would be a process whereby
> the isotope was created in situ from other products.
> A slowly proceeding reaction based on hydrinos or deuterinos might do the trick, e.g.

But  Horace doesn't believe that hydrinos are real   ;-}

I like the suggestion, however, as - if Mills is ever proven correct,  it would be incomprehensible that hydrogen shrinkage was not also involved in CF to some degree.

> Pd105 + Deuterino -> Ag106 + n where the neutron wanders off ....

A neutron would have been easy to spot, and is seldom seen in CF - but Pd has an isotope at 104 (11+%),  so

Pd104 + Deuterino -> Ag106   

> This small heavy negative particle might go into orbit around heavier nuclei, displacing one the heavier atoms own electrons, until such time as fusion eventually occurred between it and the nucleus (analogous to muon catalyzed fusion).

Or...I wonder if a highly shrunken hydrogen, appearing nearly neutral in a Pd matrix could somehow interact and disturb the (Pd, Ag, etc)  k-shell electrons and the EM balance to such an extent that EC and/or beta decay was somehow accelerated?

It  certainly appears that in that in this group of metals (Rh, Pd, Ag, Ir, Pt, Au) If you look at their isotopes and isomers, that EC and beta decay is highly favored over other forms of decay, making these metals somewhat "chameleon-like" or interchangeable - Probably this  is the basis of the Hagelstein comment, and ...dare I say it, is involved in Joe Champion's (Hudson's) alchemy....

Jones




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Subject: Re: K. Wolf's results
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thomas malloy wrote:

> Jones Breene posted;
>
> And Ed Storms responded;
>
> >According to my reference book, Ag106 is a positron emitter with a
> >half life of 24 min, but has a 8.28 day half-life for  511.9 KeV
> >gamma emission.  I suspect the other gamma energies attributed to
> >Ag106 by Passell must be caused by the 8.28 day transition.
> >
> >  > Get the "silver bullet" picture, now?
>
> Did he find any silver, or are you speculating?

The measured gamma energy suggests the presence of Ag106.  However,
some conflict exists in the literature about the radiation expected
from this rare isotope.

Ed


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Subject: Converting monopole magnetic energies into larger electric bandwidths 
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The solution to many efficient energy converstion devices such as Cold Fusio=
n=20
can be modeled and studied to improve efficiency by studying the phase=20
transition relationships between coherent monopole waves, and wider bandwidt=
h=20
waves.=20

http://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&
id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=3Dcvips&gifs=3DYes

 Full Text: =A0[=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServ=
let?filetype=3Dpdf&id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=3Dcvips">PDF</=
A> (130 kB) =A0=A0<A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServle=
t?filetype=3Dgzipps&id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=3Dcvips">GZip=
ped PS</A> =A0]=A0=A0=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPD=
FServlet?filetype=3Dpdf&id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=3Dcvips">=
Order</A> Mean field theory of=20
the coherent to random-phase state transition in three-wave interactions

P. M. Drysdale and P. A. Robinson School of Physics, University of Sydney,=20
New South Wales 2006, Australia (Received 9 August 2002; accepted 3 Septembe=
r=20
2002) The crossover of three-wave interactions from the coherent=20
monochromatic limit to the wide bandwidth random-phase limit is investigated=
=20
as the bandwidth of the waves is varied in a system exhibiting nonlinear=20
three-wave oscillations. A recently observed sudden transition between the=20
coherent and incoherent interaction is confirmed. As the bandwidth is=20
increased from the monochromatic limit, it is found that the coherence of th=
e=20
interaction decreases slowly. At the transition point of the interaction the=
=20
coherence then falls abruptly and nonlinear oscillations cease. An analytic=20
mean-field approach is used to model the transition. Below the transition=20
point, each frequency component of the wave spectra oscillates at its own=20
individual frequency about the aggregate quasicoherent oscillation of the=20
wave as a whole. It is when the frequency component at the spectral edge=20
cannot sustain such oscillations that the system switches to random phase=20
behavior. The analytic model's estimate of the transition point and other=20
interaction properties agrees semiquantitatively with numerical solutions of=
=20
the full equations. =A92002 American Institute of Physics.=20
<A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/jhtml/doi.jsp">doi:</A>10.1063/1.1520536=20
PACS: 52.35.Mw, 42.65.Sf =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/g=
etabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&id=3DPHPAEN00000900001200489600000=
1&idtype=3Dcvips&gifs=3DYes&addinfo=3Dyes">Additional Information</A> =20
   =20



Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The solution to many efficient energy converstion devi=
ces such as Cold Fusion can be modeled and studied to improve efficiency by=20=
studying the phase transition relationships between coherent monopole waves,=
 and wider bandwidth waves. <BR>
<BR>
http://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&amp;id=3DPHPA=
EN000009000012004896000001&amp;idtype=3Dcvips&amp;gifs=3DYes<BR>
<BR>
 <B>Full Text: </B>=A0[=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/Get=
PDFServlet?filetype=3Dpdf&id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=3Dcvips=
">PDF</A> (130 kB) =A0=A0<A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPD=
FServlet?filetype=3Dgzipps&id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=3Dcvip=
s">GZipped PS</A> =A0]=A0=A0=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getpdf/servle=
t/GetPDFServlet?filetype=3Dpdf&id=3DPHPAEN000009000012004896000001&idtype=
=3Dcvips">Order</A> Mean field theory of the coherent to random-phase state=20=
transition in three-wave interactions<BR>
<BR>
P. M. Drysdale and P. A. Robinson <I>School of Physics, University of Sydney=
, New South Wales 2006, Australia </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"B=
ACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></I>(Received 9 August 2002; accepted 3 September 2002) The crossover=
 of three-wave interactions from the coherent monochromatic limit to the wid=
e bandwidth random-phase limit is investigated as the bandwidth of the waves=
 is varied in a system exhibiting nonlinear three-wave oscillations. A recen=
tly observed sudden transition between the coherent and incoherent interacti=
on is confirmed. As the bandwidth is increased from the monochromatic limit,=
 it is found that the coherence of the interaction decreases slowly. At the=20=
transition point of the interaction the coherence then falls abruptly and no=
nlinear oscillations cease. An analytic mean-field approach is used to model=
 the transition. Below the transition point, each frequency component of the=
 wave spectra oscillates at its own individual frequency about the aggregate=
 quasicoherent oscillation of the wave as a whole. It is when the frequency=20=
component at the spectral edge cannot sustain such oscillations that the sys=
tem switches to random phase behavior. The analytic model's estimate of the=20=
transition point and other interaction properties agrees semiquantitatively=20=
with numerical solutions of the full equations. =A9<I>2002 American Institut=
e of Physics.</I> <BR>
<A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/jhtml/doi.jsp">doi:</A>10.1063/1.1520536 <BR>
<B>PACS:</B> 52.35.Mw, 42.65.Sf =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://ojps.ai=
p.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&id=3DPHPAEN0000090000120048=
96000001&idtype=3Dcvips&gifs=3DYes&addinfo=3Dyes">Additional Information</A>=
  <BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
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Subject: Hydrogen Plasma Modeling for Cold Vortex Fusion Simulatoins
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http://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&
id=3DPHPAEN000010000003000869000001&idtype=3Dcvips&gifs=3DYes

Elastic and transport cross sections for argon in hydrogen plasmas

P. S. Krsti and D. R. Schultz Physics Division, Oak Ridge National=20
Laboratory, Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831-6372 Taekyun Chung MIT Plasma Science=
=20
and Fusion Center, 175 Albany Street, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139=20
(Received 26 August 2002; accepted 27 November 2002) Accurate elastic=20
differential scattering cross sections have been computed through a fully=20
quantum mechanical approach for hydrogen ions (H+, D+, or T+) colliding with=
=20
argon in the center of mass energy range of 0.1 to 200 eV. With the=20
appropriate weight functions, these differential cross sections have been=20
integrated to yield the momentum transfer, viscosity, and integral elastic=20
cross sections. The momentum transfer and viscosity cross sections have been=
=20
extended to higher collision energies (up to 10 keV) using a classical,=20
three-body scattering method. Results have been compared with those of a=20
simple model and previous recommended values. Knowledge of these cross=20
sections, tabulated and made available through the world wide web, is of use=
=20
to modeling and diagnostics of gaseous electronic, fusion, and other plasma=20
environments. =A92003 American Institute of Physics.=20
<A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/jhtml/doi.jsp">doi:</A>10.1063/1.1541016=20
PACS: 52.20.Hv, 52.25.Vy, 52.25.Fi, 52.70.-m =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <A HREF=3D"h=
ttp://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&id=3DPHPAEN000=
010000003000869000001&idtype=3Dcvips&gifs=3DYes&addinfo=3Dyes">Additional In=
formation</A> =20
   =20




Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A>









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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">http://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=
=3Dnormal&amp;id=3DPHPAEN000010000003000869000001&amp;idtype=3Dcvips&amp;gif=
s=3DYes<BR>
<BR>
Elastic and transport cross sections for argon in hydrogen plasmas<BR>
<BR>
P. S. Krsti<IMG  SRC=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/stockgif2/AIPacutec.gif" WIDTH=
=3D"9" HEIGHT=3D"13" BORDER=3D"0"> and D. R. Schultz </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"=
#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" F=
ACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><I>Physics Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory,=
 Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831-6372 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"0"></I>Taekyun Chung </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND=
-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><I>=
MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center, 175 Albany Street, Cambridge, Massachu=
setts 02139 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff=
ff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></I>(Received 26=
 August 2002; accepted 27 November 2002) Accurate elastic differential scatt=
ering cross sections have been computed through a fully quantum mechanical a=
pproach for hydrogen ions (H+, D+, or T+) colliding with argon in the center=
 of mass energy range of 0.1 to 200 eV. With the appropriate weight function=
s, these differential cross sections have been integrated to yield the momen=
tum transfer, viscosity, and integral elastic cross sections. The momentum t=
ransfer and viscosity cross sections have been extended to higher collision=20=
energies (up to 10 keV) using a classical, three-body scattering method. Res=
ults have been compared with those of a simple model and previous recommende=
d values. Knowledge of these cross sections, tabulated and made available th=
rough the world wide web, is of use to modeling and diagnostics of gaseous e=
lectronic, fusion, and other plasma environments. =A9<I>2003 American Instit=
ute of Physics.</I> <BR>
<A HREF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/jhtml/doi.jsp">doi:</A>10.1063/1.1541016 <BR>
<B>PACS:</B> 52.20.Hv, 52.25.Vy, 52.25.Fi, 52.70.-m =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <A HR=
EF=3D"http://ojps.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=3Dnormal&id=3DPH=
PAEN000010000003000869000001&idtype=3Dcvips&gifs=3DYes&addinfo=3Dyes">Additi=
onal Information</A>  <BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 08:14:14 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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At 10:45 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>The problem lies in the very assumption that someone has to lead.


Enforcement can not be achieved without at least the ultimate threat of
military action. Military action can not be achieved by committee.  An
effective command and control structure is required backed by a powerful
infrstructure. Some day, if the world is ever unified and disarmed, this
may not be true.

Some things in the affairs of the world require benign leadership backed by
significant military force.  There was none in Rawanda, and look what
happened.  There was no UN leadership in the Balkans and look what
happened, until NATO finally stepped in.  Even NATO itself was
comparatively ineffective militarily due to lack of effective military
leadership, due to too much haggeling at the top.  There is a vacuum of
leadership regarding the North Korean Truce, dispite the fact that was a UN
truce.  The world looks to the US for that.  The world looks to us to pay
the blackmail demanded by a nation with few viable products except weapons,
while its neighbors look to us for defense.  Ironically, if North Korea
saught true friendship and nation building help from the US, with
verifyable disarmament, they would find true friendship and trading
partners.  If they seek to blackmail the US, they will find something else.

The UN did not take the leadership in defending Saudi Arabia when it was
threatened and then attacked.  The US and the Saudi's faught together to
repel Iraq at Kafgi, and the US repelled similar attacks on Saidi Arabia on
two other northern fronts.  It was not the world that stopped the advance
of Iraq, it was US soldiers dug into in the desert.  That is the type of
leadership that is required.  Are we to be damned for providing it?

Yes, the US has made some mistakes, especially at the level of the White
House.  Mistakes like drawing us into the Vietnam War, or in some cases
backing malevolent corrupt dictators, but for the most part the US has
defended liberty and independence around the world.  We are not like the
Romans that conquered to build an empire, demanding taxes and slaves.  On
the contrary, when victorious, we have generally engaged in nation building
and poured out vast sums of money end effort for the defense and rebuilding
of the affected areas, and the restoration of the independence of those
areas.


>Like Americans, the other peoples of the world also value independence,
>and like to run their own affairs. This is why the UN was created. So that
>no single nation would "lord it" (play the lord and master) over any
>other.


The US has suffered an attack the magnitude of Pearl Harbor, not only on
our miliary, but on our civilian population.  The attack could have been
worse, and we expect yet worse.  It is the US that now needs the help of
allies in our war.
One of the reasons given for the attack was to get us out of Saudi Arabia.
This will certainly be expedited by the removal of the Bagdad regime.



>In short precisely to prevent what the US now appears to be bent on doing.


The US is at war.  The mood here dramatically changed September 11, 2001.
We are bent on doing whatever is necessary to destroy the immediate threat
of terrorism.  This requires the elimination of the enemy's command and
control structure and the infastructure that supports them, including
insane dictators that benefit by construction and distribution of weapons
of mass destruction, dictators that that threaten our existence.  I suspect
the mood in Australia will change when you are attacked in a similar
fashion by terorists.   The mood certainly was different in Australia when
it looked like you might all have to speak Japanese.  My mood is no doubt
affected by living within range of North Korea's missiles.

Terrorism is a bankrupt tactic.  Those who unrelentingly engage in
terrorism against a greater power, who repeatedly target and murder
civilian populations,  will eventually be annihilated.

Nations that now gain and wield nuclear power do their populations a great
disservice.  The cost of losing a nuclear war is fast total annihilation.
The price for engaging in chemical or biological warfare may be very
similar, with untold collateral damage to uninvolved nations.  These
things, and the threat of their use, demands leadership to deal with them.
Unfortunately in the world as it is, that leadership requires sufficient
military force.

There is an area where I suspect we may personally share concerns.  There
is a great danger here in the United States.   That danger is the rise of
extremist nationalism, the rise of a fascistic state, with or without
dictator.   This danger is primarily due to use of the media by
sensationalist journalists and commentators that may make Joseph Goebbels
seem like a pussy cat.  There seem to be growing numbers of such shock jock
right oriented political media types, without counterbalance to the left.
As we discover allies that finance or provide weapons to our enemies, as we
are stabbed in the back diplomatically by assumed friends, as our troops in
the field are placed at continually higher risk by UN diplomatic manuevers
and manipulating inspectors, the mood here is easily utilized to build a
consumer base by and for the right wing shock broadcasters.  If we become
isolated at our time of need, then there will be no limit to the needs or
demands of our defense budget.  Unfortunately, over a much longer term, I
think our moral base has diminished here.  Our children are largely not
taught either morality nor ethics.   I fear that down the road  genocide
may ulitmately be a consequence of the various factors coming together.
The people of the US are good people, but I fear for the coming generation.
Somehow I think we have generally managed to do right in the end.  I pray
that will continue.

As for now, we have troops in the field, and I support them.   They are
there in my defense and the further defense of those attacked by a ruthless
dictator.  If the coalition attacks Bagdad, I have little doubt the
accuracy of the US and British statements and position with respect to Iraq
will be vindicated.  Many in the UN will be shown up to be gullible fools
and I doubt they will like that.  Maybe that is what they fear most now.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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At 10:33 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message:
>[snip]
>>their mistake.  If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US will
>>have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.
>[snip]
>Should this "unlikely" event occur,


"Unlikely" was an understatement.  There is littel doubt that at least
chemical weapons are there at the ready.


>,just how does one go about apologising to a small child that has had a
>leg blown off by one of your bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may
>well be wrong?

The same way you apologise for killing and torturing thousands of the
citizens of Kuwait after you invade.  The same way you apologise for
stealing hospital contents, including incubators.  The same way you
apologize for the heat torture and loss of troops caused by sensless and
conniving squabbling at the UN.  The same way you apologize for killing
thousands of innocent civilians by terrorist attack.



>As for the true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed
>as one who has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament.
>May I suggest the you read some of the public statements being made by
>Scott Ritter.


I have seen him make statements on TV.  He does not seem to me to be a
highly rational person.



>
>When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
>for the man that made it all possible.


When you are counting the dead, remember who started it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Oil prices
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:52:54 -0500
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Hi All.

Oil prices are touching 40 dollars a barrel, and if you've
been following the market, you may be surprised to find
that most oil company stocks are trading at their 52 week lows.
Why? The Street is betting that oil prices will plummet to
20 dollars/brl based on the long term prospects of Iraq
becoming the 51st state and serious ramping up of production.
Look back at Gulf War I to see this dynamic in play.
All you war profiteers out there in vortex, time to take short
positions on oil futures... BTW, if we execute this war, will we be
become a defacto member of OPEC? 

K.

PS: The political discussion here is getting sort of interesting.
I can only add, that it seems remarkable to me that GWB has
managed to unite the entire world around a Stalinist style dictator.
This suggests a level of foreign policy incompetence that
borders on criminal negligence. Scripted press conferences
with the president being fed answers through his ear bud
don't exactly inspire confidence. For those who belong to
the Republican Party, can one of you explain to me how Bush
managed to beat out John McCain in the Primaries? "hmmm,
thoughtful and articulate conservative? Or provincial fundamentalist
wingnut? I'll take the wingnut please..."

 

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>At 10:33 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>  
>
>>May I suggest the you read some of the public statements being made by
>>Scott Ritter.
>>    
>>
>
>
>I have seen him make statements on TV.  He does not seem to me to be a
>highly rational person.
>

Indeed, rational people do not try to entice 14 year old girls into a 
sexual liason.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 09:59:46 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Oil prices
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Oil prices are touching 40 dollars a barrel, and if you've
>been following the market, you may be surprised to find
>that most oil company stocks are trading at their 52 week lows.
>Why? The Street is betting that oil prices will plummet to
>20 dollars/brl based on the long term prospects of Iraq
>becoming the 51st state and serious ramping up of production.

Many reports say that Iraq's infrastructure is such a mess, it will take 
years to ramp up production. However, the Saudis say they will ensure that 
the price does not remain at $40 for long. After a spike, they plan to 
drive the price down to $30. See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7938-2003Mar10.html

In the long term (5 years or more) high oil prices are bad for oil 
companies because they encourage conservation.


>Scripted press conferences with the president being fed answers through 
>his ear bud don't exactly inspire confidence.

Do you really think that was what was happening?!? Do you know of any 
authoritative evidence for this?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 10:06:54 2003
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Progress in alienology. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,57992,00.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 10:10:18 2003
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Subject: RE: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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Hi R.

That review was embarrasing, the general idea of
reviewing is that you read the text you want to
comment on... That said, thanks for the suggestion
and I'd appreciate your comments, as you've read
the thing.

Here's an interesting analysis from Norman Mailer.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16166

Again, reasonably fair and balanced, but from
a more critical perspective.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: R. Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com]
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 8:00 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution


Vorts,
I have just finished reading:
The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, by Kenneth Pollack.
I feel that it presents valuable insight into the Iraq problem and why we
are reduced to having no good options. It is a well written and, I believe,
a fair analysis of all the options.
Ron W


Some comments here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz092602.asp

--On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:33 AM +1100 Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> In reply to Horace Heffner's message:
> [snip]
>> their mistake. If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US
>> will have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.
>>
> [snip]
> Should this "unlikely" event occur, just how does one go about
> apologising to a small child that has had a leg blown off by one of your
> bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may well be wrong? As for the
> true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed as one who
> has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament. May I suggest the you
> read some of the public statements being made by Scott Ritter. (see e.g.
> http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm ).
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> R. van Spaandonk
>
> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
> for the man that made it all possible.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 10:51:45 2003
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Hey Jed.

I wrote:
>>Scripted press conferences with the president being fed answers through 
>>his ear bud don't exactly inspire confidence.

And you replied
>Do you really think that was what was happening?!? Do you know of any 
>authoritative evidence for this?

For the first part, I figure these folks are a pretty authoritative
source...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030306-8.html

"The risk of doing nothing, the risk of hoping that Saddam Hussein
changes his mind and becomes a gentle soul, the risk that somehow
-- that inaction will make the world safer, is a risk I'm not
willing to take for the American people. "

"We'll be there in a minute. King, John King.
This is a scripted -- (laughter.)" 

Q "Thank you, Mr. President. How would -- sir, how would
you answer your critics who say that they think this
is somehow personal?" 

For the second part, watch the press conference yourself. It's
painfully obvious that he's being fed lines, watch his
delivery. Short slow sentences, pauses between to allow
him time for the next line. If you have
a copy of the conference on tape, watch for the few
times when he mispronounces a word, and then immediately
corrects himself. That's a dead giveaway. He's gone
slightly ahead of the reader, and corrects
himself when he hears the word spoken correctly.

There are several points in the speech when he "wings"
it, note the remarkable change in delivery and style
of speech. Here's an example of where he goes off script. Listen
to the audio stream and I think you'll see what I mean.

"Secondly, the American people know that Saddam Hussein
has weapons of mass destruction. (Breaking from script)
By the way, he declared he didn't have any -- 1441 insisted
that he have a complete declaration of his weapons;
he said he didn't have any weapons. Secondly, he's used
these weapons before. I mean, this is -- we're not speculating
about the nature of the man. We know the nature of the man."

(now he goes back to the script)

"Colin Powell, in an eloquent address to the United Nations,
described some of the information we were at liberty of talking
about. He mentioned a man named Al Zarqawi, who was in charge
of the poison network. He's a man who was wounded in Afghanistan,
received aid in Baghdad, ordered the killing of a U.S. citizen,
USAID employee, was harbored in Iraq. There is a poison plant
in Northeast Iraq. To assume that Saddam Hussein knew none of
this was going on is not to really understand the
nature of the Iraqi society."

You think this is glossolalia, Jed??? Or can he turn
his dyslexia on and off at will?

 
 

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From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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--==========1300786358==========
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Keith,
Well I didn't read the link comments (guess I should have) before I posted 
the link (just grabbed one off google) but it did have some quotes from the 
book which after reading has pretty much changed my mind about our options.

Saddams goal in life is to get a NUKE and dominate the middle east... 
control middle east oil & eliminate Israel. Estimates vary on when he will 
have one but since the sanctions have been actively undermined by smuggling 
and the oil for food program.... it will be in the near future. The book 
makes a credible case that containment has failed and that deterrence is 
too dangerous since he has NO respect for anything but his power. If he 
gets a NUKE he wouldn't hesitate to use it if cornered. He has purged all 
his opposition (and then some just to be sure) a'la Stalin so a coup or 
assassination is highly unlikely.

Several opportunities have been missed by both Bush the elder and Clinton 
for reasons that now don't look so good in hindsight.

I found the book fascinating and convincing at the same time. Pollack 
writes clearly and articulates arguments from all sides of the issue and 
has an experts knowledge of the region and its history.

As you say I find it truly amazing that "W" has managed to unite the world 
behind a man who models himself upon Stalin...even brags that he has 
"improved" upon Stalin's methods.  Pollack makes a good reasoned approach 
its too bad "W" can't!

AS I see it the troops are now in place and must be used .... pulling out 
at this point without taking care of the problem would have terrible 
consequences for the US and the middle east.

In any case, I highly recommend the book for a well articulated 
authoritative analysis of the problem.

Ron W.

--On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:23 PM -0500 Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> 
wrote:

> Hi R.
>
> That review was embarrasing, the general idea of
> reviewing is that you read the text you want to
> comment on... That said, thanks for the suggestion
> and I'd appreciate your comments, as you've read
> the thing.
>
> Here's an interesting analysis from Norman Mailer.
>
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16166
>
> Again, reasonably fair and balanced, but from
> a more critical perspective.
>
> K.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: R. Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 8:00 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
>
>
> Vorts,
> I have just finished reading:
> The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, by Kenneth Pollack.
> I feel that it presents valuable insight into the Iraq problem and why we
> are reduced to having no good options. It is a well written and, I
> believe, a fair analysis of all the options.
> Ron W
>
>
> Some comments here:
> http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz092602.asp
>
> --On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:33 AM +1100 Robin van Spaandonk
> <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> In reply to Horace Heffner's message:
>> [snip]
>>> their mistake. If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US
>>> will have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems unlikely.
>>>
>> [snip]
>> Should this "unlikely" event occur, just how does one go about
>> apologising to a small child that has had a leg blown off by one of your
>> bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may well be wrong? As for the
>> true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed as one who
>> has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament. May I suggest the you
>> read some of the public statements being made by Scott Ritter. (see e.g.
>> http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm ).
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> R. van Spaandonk
>>
>> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
>> for the man that made it all possible.
>>
>>
>
>


--==========1300786358==========
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<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><flushleft>Keith,

Well I didn't read the link comments (guess I should have) before I posted =
the link (just grabbed one off google) but it did have some quotes from the =
book which after reading has pretty much changed my mind about our options. =



Saddams goal in life is to get a NUKE and dominate the middle east... =
control middle east oil & eliminate Israel. Estimates vary on when he will =
have one but since the sanctions have been actively undermined by smuggling =
and the oil for food program.... it will be in the near future. The book =
makes a credible case that containment has failed and that deterrence is =
too dangerous since he has NO respect for anything but his power. If he =
gets a NUKE he wouldn't hesitate to use it if cornered. He has purged all =
his opposition (and then some just to be sure) a'la Stalin so a coup or =
assassination is highly unlikely.


Several opportunities have been missed by both Bush the elder and Clinton =
for reasons that now don't look so good in hindsight.


I found the book fascinating and convincing at the same time. Pollack =
writes clearly and articulates arguments from all sides of the issue and =
has an experts knowledge of the region and its history.


As you say I find it truly amazing that "W" has managed to unite the world =
behind a man who models himself upon Stalin...even brags that he has =
"improved" upon Stalin's methods.  Pollack makes a good reasoned approach =
its too bad "W" can't!


AS I see it the troops are now in place and must be used .... pulling out =
at this point without taking care of the problem would have terrible =
consequences for the US and the middle east.


In any case, I highly recommend the book for a well articulated =
authoritative analysis of the problem.


Ron W.


--On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 1:23 PM -0500 Keith Nagel <<knagel gis.net> =
wrote:


> Hi R.

>=20

> That review was embarrasing, the general idea of

> reviewing is that you read the text you want to

> comment on... That said, thanks for the suggestion

> and I'd appreciate your comments, as you've read

> the thing.

>=20

> Here's an interesting analysis from Norman Mailer.

>=20

> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16166

>=20

> Again, reasonably fair and balanced, but from

> a more critical perspective.

>=20

> K.

>=20

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: R. Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com]

> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 8:00 PM

> To: vortex-l eskimo.com

> Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution

>=20

>=20

> Vorts,

> I have just finished reading:

> The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq, by Kenneth Pollack.

> I feel that it presents valuable insight into the Iraq problem and why we

> are reduced to having no good options. It is a well written and, I

> believe, a fair analysis of all the options.

> Ron W

>=20

>=20

> Some comments here:

> http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz092602.asp

>=20

> --On Tuesday, March 11, 2003 10:33 AM +1100 Robin van Spaandonk

> <<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>=20

>> In reply to Horace Heffner's message:

>> [snip]

>>> their mistake. If it ends up the other way around, well, we in the US

>>> will have some serious apologies to make, but that to me seems =
unlikely.

>>>=20

>> [snip]

>> Should this "unlikely" event occur, just how does one go about

>> apologising to a small child that has had a leg blown off by one of your

>> bombs, when one knows beforehand that one may well be wrong? As for the

>> true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed as one =
who

>> has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament. May I suggest the =
you

>> read some of the public statements being made by Scott Ritter. (see e.g.

>> http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm ).

>>=20

>>=20

>>=20

>> Regards,

>>=20

>> R. van Spaandonk

>>=20

>> When you are counting the dead, remember who voted

>> for the man that made it all possible.

>>=20

>>=20

>=20

> =20



--==========1300786358==========--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 12:05:51 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:01:34 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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	Dear Jack,

	Would it be a great hardship for you to make your contributions to
Vortex in a simple and civil manner? 
	Please take the time to look over your posts, before you send
them, and post them as you would to a 10 year old you respect and wish to
mentor, by your example, in a civil manner.

					With Respect,

							JH


On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, William Beaty wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
> 
> > ERic Krieg  asked me to join his skeptic site probably thinking the
> > sharks would eat me alive.
> 
> Why would he think that?  Some people are very poor at guessing what
> others are really thinking.  I've known Mr. Kreig for years.  He gives
> inventors every chance to prove their claims.  He's honestly looking for
> energy devices which really work.
> 
> > When it was I that eat them alive i was  banned.
> 
> If you behave badly on an online forum, the moderator will probably kick
> you off.  "Badly" includes a constant stream of insults.
> 
> > i made sush a fool out of him to the point that he has almost become a
> > supporter by helping me anyway he can. . Bill with these people
> > screaming about me to the extent they are,
> 
> They're complaining about your behavior.  People who spew insults on the
> internet are very common.  The usual name for this behavior is "flaming."
> 
> > because I'm must be upsetting their physics apple carts
> 
> I thought you were keeping all the information secret.  How can you upset
> anyone if proprietary considerations prevent you from presenting any
> evidence that you are right?
> 
> > why haven't i been banned from this one.
> 
> Because I hate throwing people off the forum, but I eventually take
> action.
> 
> 
> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 12:40:21 2003
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Are you a liberal?
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I met with this man last evening when he was in the Twin Cites. I 
gave up listening to Rush Limbaugh's program because he is so much 
better. He is very intellectual, and insightful.

He mentioned this article which sums up how the radical left has 
hijacked the name liberal and twisted it into something quite 
different. As The Savage has pointed out, they are quite illiberal. 
http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 12:43:09 2003
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Connoisseurs of early aviation will not want to miss the "Junkyard Wars" 
special, "Flight of the Century." See:

http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/junkyard/flight/flight.html

The French team's reproduction of the Bleriot Type XI was a thing of beauty.

The program reminds me of cold fusion labs, especially at Hokkaido University.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 12:54:31 2003
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To: <knagel gis.net>, "Vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oil prices
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At 12:52 PM 3/11/3, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi All.
>
>Oil prices are touching 40 dollars a barrel, and if you've
>been following the market, you may be surprised to find
>that most oil company stocks are trading at their 52 week lows.
>Why? The Street is betting that oil prices will plummet to
>20 dollars/brl based on the long term prospects of Iraq
>becoming the 51st state and serious ramping up of production.
>Look back at Gulf War I to see this dynamic in play.
>All you war profiteers out there in vortex, time to take short
>positions on oil futures... BTW, if we execute this war, will we be
>become a defacto member of OPEC?



The US has already stated that the oil belongs and will continue to belong
to the Iraqis.  However, it can be expected that the Iraqis, with help and
the removal of the UN embargo, will rejuvenate their oil fields, increasing
world production, and decreasing the amount that other opec members can
produce to hold prices above $20.00.  This means cheap gas again.  There
goes much of the impetus for fuel cells and hydrogen economy.  There goes
what little momentum exists for renewable energy.  This is why I see a need
for a permanent fund for research and development of renewable energy.  It
will smooth over the political bumps and keep development on track.  We
need to end this viscious cycle.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 13:03:59 2003
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Subject: RE: Oil prices/NewSpeak
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>"We'll be there in a minute. King, John King.
>This is a scripted -- (laughter.)"

I thought he meant he was was calling on people in a predetermined order 
from a list. I read that in the New York Times.


>For the second part, watch the press conference yourself. It's
>painfully obvious that he's being fed lines, watch his
>delivery. Short slow sentences, pauses between to allow
>him time for the next line. . . .

Perhaps you are right. I assumed he trained for the conference the way 
modern politicians train for important debates, by memorizing stock answers 
to expected questions. I assumed he was giving canned responses from a 
briefing book, or perhaps reading from cards or a TelePrompTer. I was not 
watching closely.


>There are several points in the speech when he "wings"
>it, note the remarkable change in delivery and style
>of speech. Here's an example of where he goes off script. Listen
>to the audio stream and I think you'll see what I mean.

It was pretty noticeable, but I assumed those were memorized segments. 
Politicians are often good at memorizing short speeches.


>You think this is glossolalia, Jed??? Or can he turn
>his dyslexia on and off at will?

An interesting point. Actually, I suffer from mild dyslexia (nowhere near 
as bad as Bush's!) and to some extent I can turn it on and off, mainly by 
concentrating and writing down everything rather than trying to speak 
extemporaneously. Bush does have pronounced difficulty with language; the 
worst I recall seeing in a public figure. If my child had that kind of 
difficulty, I would consider a speech therapist. But such problems do not 
necessarily reflect underlying mental processes, especially not when 
problems respond well to therapy.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 13:52:35 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Re: Are you a liberal?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b0bba93f8698241 [64.61.198.94]>
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Please mark threads like this with "OFF TOPIC" to allow filtering, or move 
them to Vortex BL. Some people object to too many political messages here. 
Of course the circumstances in the U.S. are extraordinary and very tense 
just now, and people are thinking a lot about politics.

Regarding this list:

>http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html

These are mainly what a public opinion researcher would call "loaded 
questions," designed to elicit particular responses. Most of them have no 
good answer. For example:

"11. The present high tax rates are good."

A sensible response would be Yes & No; it depends; or 'the question is 
essentially meaningless as stated.' High compared to what? Good in what 
sense? Good compared to what alternative? If expenditures are high because 
of war, social security, government waste or for any other reason, then 
high tax rates are better than low rates plus heavy government borrowing. 
Also, compared to other first world nations in Europe and Japan, U.S. tax 
rates are low, not high.

Or:

"12. Speech codes on college campuses are good and American values."

Which speech codes, on which campuses? What American values? Without 
specific instances the question is meaningless. Every campus has codes and 
standards, some written, some not. What is acceptable speech at Bob Jones 
University may not be well received at Cornell, and vice versa. (Although I 
doubt anyone at Cornell would care what others say, since they seldom 
listen, and they have no "speech code" as far as I know.) I personally 
would not want to be muzzled by the restrictions at Bob Jones U., the 
Christian Academies in Atlanta I have visited during high school math 
competitions, or fundamentalist Moslem schools, but I have no objection 
whatever to these institutions, their beliefs, or their rules.

A serious response to any of the issues raised in these questions would 
require nuanced, careful, adult thinking, taking to account many points of 
view, and an attempt to find a political compromise. By definition, no one 
is fully happy with a compromise. (It would not be a compromise if it 
completely satisfied liberals or conservatives.) Society cannot be run on 
any other basis. Messy solutions are the only ones all parties can agree 
on. The way these questions are formulated they elicit a knee jerk 
response, and therefore they discourage nuanced thinking and compromise. I 
would not call these questions an indication of either liberal or 
conservative thinking. I would call them anti-intellectual, or an attempt 
to oversimplify complex social problems which have no good solutions.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 15:07:18 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:10:59 -0500
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Hey Horace.

>The US has already stated that the oil belongs and will continue to belong
>to the Iraqis.  However, it can be expected that the Iraqis, with help and
>the removal of the UN embargo, will rejuvenate their oil fields, increasing
>world production, and decreasing the amount that other opec members can
>produce to hold prices above $20.00.  This means cheap gas again.

Yup. That's the down side of it for you and me. For the economy, cheap gas
will be a nice kick in the pants, as it always has been, at a time
when it is DESPERATELY needed. Any honest pro-war position has to accept
that this 10 ton elephant is in the room. Sort of like how anti-war
advocates have to
fess up to the fact that Saddam is in reality a cunning and dangerous enemy,
and not just a put-upon victim of US policy.

> There
>goes much of the impetus for fuel cells and hydrogen economy.  There goes
>what little momentum exists for renewable energy.  This is why I see a need
>for a permanent fund for research and development of renewable energy.  It
>will smooth over the political bumps and keep development on track.  We
>need to end this viscious cycle.

The market economy is a cruel mistress. A nice safe harbor as you
describe would be wonderful, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for
action from the government on this. It's just too far away from
where they are. Or will be, for that matter.

The ugly truth is that were we to eliminate our oil dependence
( and that of our allies AND enemies ) you'd be seeing democracy
popping up all over the middle east. When you cut off the money,
you starve the entire horrible dictatorial machine into submission.

K.





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I would like to know who defines what a liberal is and what they
believe?  In fact, what is the purpose of such a word short of giving
an insult in the mind of a "conservative".  Rush Limbaugh and other
people use this word to generate support for their ideas by creating a
me-them distinction.  This only creates problems while solving none.
Imagine the world if Limbaugh took the approach of Bill Moyers and
actually tried to understand the issues rather than making fun of
people with a different approach.

Ed


thomas malloy wrote:

> I met with this man last evening when he was in the Twin Cites. I
> gave up listening to Rush Limbaugh's program because he is so much
> better. He is very intellectual, and insightful.
>
> He mentioned this article which sums up how the radical left has
> hijacked the name liberal and twisted it into something quite
> different. As The Savage has pointed out, they are quite illiberal.
> http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 16:22:27 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:19:33 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Junkyard Wars aviation mega-war
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At 3:37 PM 3/11/3, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Connoisseurs of early aviation will not want to miss the "Junkyard Wars"
>special, "Flight of the Century." See:
>
>http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/junkyard/flight/flight.html
>
>The French team's reproduction of the Bleriot Type XI was a thing of beauty.


Too bad it appeared to be capable of flying on ground effect only.  Same
wih the US plane.  The French plane looked to have about 90 percent of lift
required for real flight, and the US plane a bit more than 50 percent.  The
Brits built a real aircraft IMHO.  Perhaps there should have been a rule
that the aircraft must sustain an altitude 3 times their wingspan.  Then
again, that would have made the contest much less interesting.  As is, it
was indeed a truly amazing achievment for all three teams.  I've considered
myself of necessity to be a bit junkyard capable, but it is a thrill to
watch people that have the real talent.

This appears to me to be almost completely on topic.  I suspect few amoung
us can afford to experiment without scavaging abilites.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: 1st MOAB a MOGB dud?
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In the the TV news video the first MOAB appeared to me to be detonated at
too low an altitude, thus not diffusing and adequate air volume.  Thus it
was a ground burst, not an air burst?  Probably a dud.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 16:36:01 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:33:29 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Are you a liberal?
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Political doctrine amounts to intellectual handcuffs.  The same political
doctrine repeated over and over in the media, jingoism, is the most
intellectually boring music to which anyone can listen.  Unfortunately, if
it is delivered with sufficient emotion it generates adrenaline and is
addictive.  Too bad it actually works, not only in making markets but in
making political zombies.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 19:15:46 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:12:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kyle Mcallister <kyle_mcallister yahoo.com>
Subject: Neither (long) Re: Are you a liberal?
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Just my $2x10^-2.....

Not a liberal or a conservative. I have views that go
left at times and right at times. But please leave my
V8 alone. It gets good gas mileage, doesn't pollute
badly, and I like it. Scrub the factory and power
plant stacks instead of harassing us drivers. I am a
pretty good mechanic, and know how to keep things
clean and efficient.

As far as gas prices go, well, this is not good at
all. It hurts the little guy that wants to get to work
but can't. I live in New York, just outside of
Buffalo, and I can't very well ride a bicycle to work
every day. Especially in the winter. And not the way
these people drive. So I've got my car to use. And
seeing as it is hard to make a decent living these
days, this gasoline situation is getting hard to live
with. Maybe it is good impetus to work harder on
alternative fuels and such, but when all is said and
done, it sucks. If these guys need such a shove to get
a move on with research, maybe the problem is with
them, and not the gasoline.

Electric cars suck. They get no distance, they cost a
fortune that the little guy can't afford, and are
maintenance intensive. You need a new valve or
connecting rod in a gasoline motor? Ok, replace it.
Need a new motor in an electric car? You're f***ed. I
drove from Mississippi to New York in 18 hours. That's
about 1300 miles. Can I find an electric vehicle to do
that? No. And don't give me the lecture about "just
take your time, you aren't required to be in a hurry".
Really? This world is ALWAYS in a big damned hurry.
There is no way to change that. Its how things are.
You want to fight the system and get it changed? More
power to ya, I tried and all it got me was less
friends and more depressed with the way the world is.

If they come up with an electric car that is cheap,
gets good distance (at least 1000 miles on a charge),
and can perform equal or better than my car, I will
get one, money permitting. Would prefer rear-wheel
drive, however, for personal reasons. I am currently
building a 1986 Chevy Monte Carlo, to replace my 1995
Buick Regal. Why? It is easier and cheaper to work on,
it performs better, and I like how it looks. Any
politician that says I can't drive this because it
consumes slightly more gas than the Buick can kindly
leave me alone. The transmission for the Buick
(stripped 1st gear, tranny sucked to begin with) costs
$1500 to have rebuilt. The indian reservation will do
it for $1000 but then I get harassed for "avoiding"
taxes and such. I can have the tranny in the Monte, a
TH350, rebuilt for $350. The parts for this car are
half as much or less than for the Buick, and I can do
it all myself very easily. So what is the obvious
choice?

Don't get me wrong, I love our planet and our
environment very much. But harassing drivers as
opposed to the industries is not good. And I have seen
quite a few of these environmentalists and politicians
proudly driving their classic cars with the
gas-guzzling, carburated 350's, 400's and 454's. Will
they likely give them up? No. And if anyone knows of a
more efficient pollution controller I can put on my
car, please let me know. And unlike most hot-rodders,
I am proud to have a catalytic converter. Get the
right one, and it doesn't harm performance. And they
are not expensive.

As far as the upcoming (or not) war with Iraq, I don't
know where I stand on that, because we are likely not
hearing exactly what is truly going on. There is no
'the government', at best it's a loose association of
people out for themselves, trying to get the better of
each other. Same with the military, with its
inter-branch espionage. So making an educated decision
at this point is hard at best. As far as Europe goes,
well, if not for us, they would probably be
goose-stepping and saluting the swastika. Hussein is
terrible to his own people, the Iranians want more
freedom, yet no one wants to do anything about the
people. I'd love to see us go to war, with intention
not to bring home captured booty, oil resources, and
make ourselves look big-and-bad, but to help the
people who are being hurt but no one wants to talk
about. If ever there was a cause to fight for, THAT is
it.

BTW, can someone please tell me what the "great left
wing conspiracy" and the "great right wing conspiracy"
are? Never encountered such an animal myself...

Helplessly hoping for peace on earth for all mankind,
--Kyle

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 11 23:15:13 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:13:50 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Are you a liberal?
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>I would like to know who defines what a liberal is and what they
>believe?  In fact, what is the purpose of such a word short of giving
>an insult in the mind of a "conservative".  Rush Limbaugh and other

This has nothing to do with Limbaugh. It has to do with the co-option 
of a word that used to mean tolerance and free enterprise and 
twisting it into intolerance and socialism. They are anti G-d, anti 
family, anti morality, anti religion, and most of all anti American 
They control the media and academia sot they can make a word mean 
what ever they want it to.

Bill Moyers is one of their best mouth pieces. True, he is not 
without redeeming points, but by in large he pushes the Liberal 
agenda when ever he can. I've stopped listening to the media, other 
than conservative talk radio, because I've realized that it is a 
sewer of immorality with garbage that is engineered to poison your 
mind.

>
>  > He mentioned this article which sums up how the radical left has
>>  hijacked the name liberal and twisted it into something quite
>>  different. As The Savage has pointed out, they are quite illiberal.
>  > http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html
>

Read the article Ed, Dennis has made a list of what these people 
believe, how many of them do you support?

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:30:19 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:09:53 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 10:45 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>The problem lies in the very assumption that someone has to lead.
>
>
>Enforcement can not be achieved without at least the ultimate threat of
>military action. Military action can not be achieved by committee.  An

Agreed, but then I don't think a war is appropriate in this case.

>effective command and control structure is required backed by a powerful
>infrstructure. Some day, if the world is ever unified and disarmed, this
>may not be true.

If the world disarms, it has to be by multilateral agreement. One faction
taking it upon itself to disarm the rest (while retaining its own arms), is dictatorship, and will never lead to peace.

>
>Some things in the affairs of the world require benign leadership backed by
>significant military force.  

This is the raison de etre of the UN.

>There was none in Rawanda, and look what
>happened.  

I agree Rwanda was a disaster. One that might have been prevented if the simmering underlying tensions that led to it had been dealt with at a global level much earlier. I'm also sure there are many other such situations brewing at the present that are not being adequately handled.

>There was no UN leadership in the Balkans and look what
>happened, until NATO finally stepped in.  Even NATO itself was
>comparatively ineffective militarily due to lack of effective military
>leadership, due to too much haggeling at the top.  There is a vacuum of
>leadership regarding the North Korean Truce, dispite the fact that was a UN
>truce.  The world looks to the US for that.  The world looks to us to pay

I would be more inclined to say that the world has frequently looked to the US to take a leading role in UN actions.

>the blackmail demanded by a nation with few viable products except weapons,
>while its neighbors look to us for defense.  

I'm not sure which situation(s) you have in mind here.
(Generally the largest arms manufacturers are the major powers).

>Ironically, if North Korea
>saught true friendship and nation building help from the US, with
>verifyable disarmament, they would find true friendship and trading
>partners.  If they seek to blackmail the US, they will find something else.

North Korea (rightly or wrongly) is terrified of a US attack, since it was named as part of GWB's "axis of evil".

>
>The UN did not take the leadership in defending Saudi Arabia when it was
>threatened and then attacked.  The US and the Saudi's faught together to
>repel Iraq at Kafgi, and the US repelled similar attacks on Saidi Arabia on
>two other northern fronts.  It was not the world that stopped the advance
>of Iraq, it was US soldiers dug into in the desert.  That is the type of
>leadership that is required.  Are we to be damned for providing it?

Not when you are defending others at their request, or as part of a UN action.

>
>Yes, the US has made some mistakes, especially at the level of the White
>House.  Mistakes like drawing us into the Vietnam War, or in some cases
>backing malevolent corrupt dictators, but for the most part the US has
>defended liberty and independence around the world.  

Granted, the US has often played a leading role in the defence of others,
when asked to. It seems to get in to trouble however when it acts without
being asked.

>We are not like the
>Romans that conquered to build an empire, demanding taxes and slaves.  On

Actually in a more subtle fashion this is somewhat the case. 
Many of the "foreign adventures" of the US have had as a common theme the spread of capitalism, and the imposition or support of US industrial and trading interests.
E.g. Chile, Nicaragua, Indonesia and Vietnam (more generally the defeat of communism) in the latter two.
 
>the contrary, when victorious, we have generally engaged in nation building
>and poured out vast sums of money end effort for the defense and rebuilding
>of the affected areas, and the restoration of the independence of those
>areas.

As long as that independence was capitalistic, and resulted in an open market in which the US could trade.
Note that while I was sympathetic to communism in my youth, I have since come to the conclusion that it is essentially an inefficient economic model
as it requires a degree of communication between consumption and manufacturing that is unwieldy. Capitalism is more effective in this regard as the price mechanism, and the law or supply and demand, takes care of such communication automatically.

>
>
>>Like Americans, the other peoples of the world also value independence,
>>and like to run their own affairs. This is why the UN was created. So that
>>no single nation would "lord it" (play the lord and master) over any
>>other.
>
>
>The US has suffered an attack the magnitude of Pearl Harbor, not only on
>our miliary, but on our civilian population.  The attack could have been
>worse, and we expect yet worse.  It is the US that now needs the help of
>allies in our war.

Yes, but not to go blindly thrashing around at pet demons.

>One of the reasons given for the attack was to get us out of Saudi Arabia.
>This will certainly be expedited by the removal of the Bagdad regime.

Do you really believe this? On the contrary, Saudi Arabia is in line for a complete overhaul.

>
>
>
>>In short precisely to prevent what the US now appears to be bent on doing.
>
>
>The US is at war.  The mood here dramatically changed September 11, 2001.
>We are bent on doing whatever is necessary to destroy the immediate threat
>of terrorism.  

No argument there, but that threat doesn't come from Iraq.
(However Iraq is a threat to Israel, and I would expect the Israelis to put pressure on the US administration behind the scenes to "deal" with Iraq).
And if you really want to put an end to terrorism, then try listening to the grievances of the terrorists, and doing something constructive about addressing them.
(No one commits suicide without a very good reason, at least in their own eyes).

>This requires the elimination of the enemy's command and
>control structure and the infastructure that supports them, including
>insane dictators that benefit by construction and distribution of weapons
>of mass destruction, dictators that that threaten our existence.  I suspect

No, hatred breads more hatred. The real long term solution to the problem is to turn your enemy into your friend. A first step in this direction is really listening seriously to their grievances, and being prepared to admit that those grievances are real as experienced by them.

>the mood in Australia will change when you are attacked in a similar
>fashion by terorists.  

We already have been. Many of the victims of the Bali bombing were Australian.

> The mood certainly was different in Australia when
>it looked like you might all have to speak Japanese.  

Yes, we were and are very grateful for the US hauling our ass out of the fire.

>My mood is no doubt
>affected by living within range of North Korea's missiles.

Unless you live near a large military base, I doubt you have much to fear.
If the North Koreans have any nuclear weapons, then they don't have many,
and I think you can probably count on them using what they have to maximum advantage. That implies using them against major US bases (probably in Japan). Of course, you could still get some of the down wind fallout, but then so could we all.
However I think the primary reason for N. Korea wanting such weapons is as a deterrent. Which also means that the US administration probably thinks that 
Saddam doesn't have any, or they wouldn't be quite so anxious to invade.

>
>Terrorism is a bankrupt tactic.  Those who unrelentingly engage in
>terrorism against a greater power, who repeatedly target and murder
>civilian populations,  will eventually be annihilated.

Possibly, however as long as perceived injustices continue to exist,
there will always be those who struggle against them, in whatever way they can.

>
>Nations that now gain and wield nuclear power do their populations a great
>disservice.  The cost of losing a nuclear war is fast total annihilation.
>The price for engaging in chemical or biological warfare may be very
>similar, with untold collateral damage to uninvolved nations.  These
>things, and the threat of their use, demands leadership to deal with them.
>Unfortunately in the world as it is, that leadership requires sufficient
>military force.

No, what it requires is real international justice, an end to exploitation, a respect for human rights, and a willingness to help without expecting anything in return.
IOW remove the problem, and the symptoms will disappear. Fight the symptoms, and the disease just gets worse, while the medical bills go up.

>
>There is an area where I suspect we may personally share concerns.  There
>is a great danger here in the United States.   That danger is the rise of
>extremist nationalism, the rise of a fascistic state, with or without
>dictator.   This danger is primarily due to use of the media by
>sensationalist journalists and commentators that may make Joseph Goebbels
>seem like a pussy cat.  There seem to be growing numbers of such shock jock
>right oriented political media types, without counterbalance to the left.

I'm afraid the media are only one side of the coin. The other side is the military industrial complex that your own President Eisenhower warned you about.
They share common owners, and I suspect also have other interests in common (secret societies etc.).

>As we discover allies that finance or provide weapons to our enemies, as we
>are stabbed in the back diplomatically by assumed friends, as our troops in
>the field are placed at continually higher risk by UN diplomatic manuevers
>and manipulating inspectors, the mood here is easily utilized to build a
>consumer base by and for the right wing shock broadcasters.  If we become
>isolated at our time of need, then there will be no limit to the needs or
>demands of our defense budget.  

You are not being deserted by your friends. What they are telling you, if only you would listen, is that you are on the wrong track. When you were on the right track, you had all the support you could wish for.
The problem that the US administration has is that it is unable to conceive of its own fallibility. This is undesirable when it happens with someone like Saddam Hussein, disastrous when it happens to be the US president.

>Unfortunately, over a much longer term, I
>think our moral base has diminished here.  Our children are largely not
>taught either morality nor ethics.   I fear that down the road  genocide
>may ulitmately be a consequence of the various factors coming together.
>The people of the US are good people, but I fear for the coming generation.
>Somehow I think we have generally managed to do right in the end.  I pray
>that will continue.

I share your concern in this. I have noticed the same long term trend.
(I am even paranoid enough to think that there is a good chance that it is actually engineered).

>
>As for now, we have troops in the field, and I support them.   They are
>there in my defense and the further defense of those attacked by a ruthless
>dictator.  If the coalition attacks Bagdad, I have little doubt the
>accuracy of the US and British statements and position with respect to Iraq
>will be vindicated.  Many in the UN will be shown up to be gullible fools
>and I doubt they will like that.  Maybe that is what they fear most now.

I seriously doubt it. Most current European leaders appear to be considerably 
more mature than that. They are fallible, and they know it. That's why they want to give inspections a chance. Because they know they might be wrong about Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 00:13:19 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:12:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Are you a liberal?
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I see discussions such as this as natural philosophy, not politics.

>
>Regarding this list:
>
>>http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html
>
>These are mainly what a public opinion researcher would call "loaded 
>questions," designed to elicit particular responses. Most of them 
>have no good answer. For example:
>
>"11. The present high tax rates are good."
>
>A sensible response would be Yes & No; it depends; or 'the question 
>is essentially meaningless as stated.' High compared to what? Good 
>in what sense? Good

I guess you have to listen to Dennis in order to appreciate that 
Europe is quite socialist and is farther down the road to adopting 
what is defined as liberalism than most of America. This is 
particularly true of those of us in fly over country He also points 
out that there is no connection between artistic ability and 
morality. Dennis is a Conservative Jew who was raised to be a 
liberal, but realized that he was a conservative as he aged. He has 
also realized that the Conservative Christians are Israel's only 
friends.

>
>"12. Speech codes on college campuses are good and American values."
>
>Which speech codes, on which campuses? What American values? Without specific

On most campuses the left wing only allows what they deem to be 
politically correct. Dennis regularly points out that their ideas 
have no basis in reality and that only academics could be stupid 
enough to believe it. He also points out that having children makes 
you progressively more conservative. The other factor being religion.

>
>A serious response to any of the issues raised in these questions 
>would require nuanced, careful, adult thinking, taking to account 
>many points of view, and an attempt to find a political compromise. 
>By definition, no one is fully happy with a

We have no problem with that. The left wing does, they are intolerant 
of out ideas. They have contempt for traditional American values. Bob 
Jones University is the exception, by in large the left wing 
dominates academia. Dennis regularly points out that people are going 
into debt to pay the tuition to have their children indoctrinated 
with values that are totally at odds with what they believe.

Getting back to politics, I realize that the coming Bush War is not 
good, it's just that we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

Pat Bailey just sent me a review of the book Alice in Wonderland and 
the World Trade Center Disaster Why the official story of 9/11 is a 
monumental lie

by David Icke

Icke has an excellent understanding of what is happening, only he has 
a totally misguided view of the reasons why. Bin Laudin is a free 
agent. He believes that he is going to win the war, which is 
understandable because his god has told him that he will.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 02:29:06 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:28:23 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Suggested UN Security Council Resolution
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At 6:30 PM 3/12/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>The UN did not take the leadership in defending Saudi Arabia when it was
>>threatened and then attacked.  The US and the Saudi's faught together to
>>repel Iraq at Kafgi, and the US repelled similar attacks on Saidi Arabia on
>>two other northern fronts.  It was not the world that stopped the advance
>>of Iraq, it was US soldiers dug into in the desert.  That is the type of
>>leadership that is required.  Are we to be damned for providing it?
>
>Not when you are defending others at their request, or as part of a UN action.


Well now we have come full circle.

The US has defended the populations of the northern and southern no-fly
zones for over 10 years at the request of the indigenous populations. In
fact, this has been minimal support.  We failed to defend them fully as
agreed, and that was an immoral decision resulting in genocide by gas
attack and other vicious but well documented means.  The lack of action of
the UN itself in this case was equally immoral.  Further, we continue to
defend Saudi Arabia and Kuwait at their request.  However, it has been a
long expensive and difficult defense.  This has caused a significant drain
on pilot strength.  It can not go on indefinitely.  We the coalition paid
that price.  Our troops now present can not stay long.  We should be able
to decide when enough is enough without further meddling from the spectator
diplomats.

Further, we have the case that terrorists are training in Iraq, move freely
through Iraq, and are funded by Iraq.  Iraq has deceived and thumbed its
nose at the UN.  The blind gullibility of the UN is beyond comprehension.
It is further incredible that the UN diplomats expect the US to continue to
let its troops suffer, to risk summer heat while under chemical attack, to
continue to act as the UN's lackey police force so inspections can at least
appear to work.  Inspections in fact have not produced the chemical or
biological weapons that will surely show up when a ground war starts in
Iraq.

The US could simply abandon its commitments and send its troops home,
leaving the defended to slaughter.  Or, it can do the job that rightfully
should have been done a decade ago.

To the radical terrorists that have attacked the US, our crime is being
infidels.  No change in our behavior or our degree of understanding will
eliminate their zeal for killing us.  We are hated for what we
fundamentally are and the freedoms and human rights we have, and for what
many of us are not, Moslems.  That is sad.  The Christian God, the God of
the Jews, and Allah the God of Islam, are all the same God, the God of
Abraham.  Ironic that this should happen while we defend Moslems both in
the Balkans and in the Middle East.

The US might save a lot of money by pulling out of Europe and the Middle
East.  However, we would ultimately have to suffer the consequences of
letting things run amuck, as we did until force into WW2.  Our only
satisfaction in withdrawing would be in seeing that the resulting
consequences to Europe were worse. We would also see just how effective
inspections would be without our existing threat of ground attack.

If our troop presence is withdrawn then our only remaining option for self
defense in the event of a major attack, other than dependence on the
militarily incompetent UN, would be a nuclear response.  This is too brief
an option list.
The US will soon have no viable option but the elimination of the Baghdad
regime with which we have been at war for a decade, the liberation of the
people of Iraq.  Very soon, anything else will not be a proper defense of
the American people nor our allies, and not a viable option for the
President of the USA.  Other options are only in the hands of the people of
Iraq.  The UN is already immaterial to these facts.  The diplomats there
know this.  Their squabbling delays can therefore only be designed to
deliberately hurt the US, or to aggrandize the diplomats themselves, or to
initiate WWW3.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 05:47:17 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:44:42 -0500
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1st MOAB a MOGB dud?
References: <v01530500ba942cc33daf [12.21.208.205]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>In the the TV news video the first MOAB appeared to me to be detonated at
>too low an altitude, thus not diffusing and adequate air volume.  Thus it
>was a ground burst, not an air burst?  Probably a dud.
>

Not totally.  Stills here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm

show a significant detonation.  And here is a good picture of the bomb:

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=moab.htm

with an explanation of how environmental conditions affect the blast. 
 Notably, Florida is probably the worst place to test this type of 
weapon due to wind and humidity.

Terry

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>The Christian God, the God of
>the Jews, and Allah the God of Islam, are all the same God, the God of
>Abraham.  
>

By the definition of monotheism, this must be true.  How can all be so 
blind to this fact?

Peter Jennings did a Christmas special on Jerusalem a couple of years 
ago whose subject was how these philosophies co-exist (or fail to) in 
that city.  At the very end of the show (I have it on tape) they are 
walking the vacant streets of the old city at 3 am when an old man, of 
unknown religion, steps out of his door and begins shouting:

"What are you going to tell your God when you stand before him?  How are 
you going to explain killing your brothers in His name sake?"

It was a chilling and enlightening scene.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 07:43:46 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: Are you a liberal?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b07ba94940733e9 [64.61.199.164]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030311160253.00b08e08 pop.mindspring.com>
 <v01530504ba93bd761766 [12.21.208.205]>
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thomas malloy wrote:

>On most campuses the left wing only allows what they deem to be 
>politically correct.

This is not in evidence, to put it mildly. To put it bluntly this is a 
preposterous urban myth. My daughters are both of college age, so I have 
been to many college orientation sessions where they try to attract 
students. I have read many policies on the Internet and elsewhere. I have 
been to several colleges in the U.S. and Japan in connection with CF. I 
have NEVER seen any policy restricting speech, except, as I mentioned, in 
conservative and religious institutions, where everyone agrees they are 
appropriate. The only place I have heard of a "liberal" restriction is in 
the newspapers, years ago. The policies these news stories referred to were 
dead on arrival, and were withdrawn or ignored, because the idea of 
"liberal restrictions" is hypocritical, contradictory and risible. No one 
ever took such restrictions seriously. You can confirm this by looking at 
the list of events on any large college campus. They include every 
conceivable political point of view, just as they did in 1970.

Furthermore, most professors & administrators I know are not particularly 
liberal, despite the cliches. Look at their reaction to cold fusion. By and 
large, they are closed minded, cramped, reactionary middle aged people.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Junkyard Wars aviation mega-war
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> >The French team's reproduction of the Bleriot Type XI was a thing of beauty.
>
>Too bad it appeared to be capable of flying on ground effect only.  Same 
>wih the US plane.  The French plane looked to have about 90 percent of 
>lift required for real flight, and the US plane a bit more than 50 percent.

Do you think so? I thought the pilots were merely being cautious. The 
original Bleriot had a 25 HP engine. They did not say how big the JYW 
engines were, but most of the ultralight engines on Internet are bigger 
than this. On the other hand, the Bleriot wings seem larger, and oddly 
chambered. See:

http://www.ohtm.org/bleriot.html


>The Brits built a real aircraft IMHO.

Yes. It was a little unfair, because such designs were probably not seen 
until the 1920s. The others were pre-WWI designs.

- Jed


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There is an interesting perspective here:

http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350&CID=
1051-031103A

Real slow site however.
Ron W.


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<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><flushleft>There is an interesting =
perspective here:


http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=3D1051-350&CID=
=3D1051-031103A


Real slow site however.

Ron W.



--==========1374342136==========--

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Good/bad new for FE buffs
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The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) team has made the first =
detailed full-sky map of the oldest light in the universe.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm.html


*Universe is 13.7 billion years old with only a 1% margin error.

*First stars ignited 200 million years after the Big Bang.

*Light in WMAP picture from 380,000 years after the Big Bang.

*Content of the Universe: 4% Atoms, 23% Cold Dark Matter, 73% Dark =
energy.=20

*"quintessence" is not ruled out.=20
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/11/8

*Fast moving neutrinos do not play any major role in the evolution of =
structure in the universe.=20

*Expansion rate (Hubble constant) value: Ho=3D 71 km/sec/Mpc (with a =
margin of error of about 5%)



Now the "special interest" groups are beginning to put their preferred =
"spin" on the findings.

Here are some of my "spins" that vortexians might enjoy (they are =
absolutely, guaranteed, not official)

WMAP has determined that the matter of which we are made is only a small =
portion of the Universe, 4%. 23% is an exotic type of material known as =
"cold dark matter". And 73% is an even more exotic "dark energy".=20

One possibility for a potion of dark energy is known locally as ZPE or =
"beta aether." It is seen as a nanometer to subnanometer isotropic =
pressure that is not contingent on gravity and is balanced out by =
"quintessence" a negative pressure that operates at smaller atomic and =
nuclear dimensions. At any point on earth, it should be possible to tap =
into about 20 times more energy from the ZPF per unit of surface area =
than can be derived from solar energy, about 20 kwh per sq.meter. The =
problem is not finding the ZPF dark energy, as it is everywhere,  the =
problem is in creating a continuous local pressure differential, a =
"sink" as it were, by juxtaposing "quintessence" against ZPE at an =
artificial, or engineered, interface.=20

Actually, "nuclear energy" does this same kind of thing, but *in =
reverse*...and often in an uncontrollable manner.

WMAP has determined, within the limits of instrument error, that the =
universe is flat over the long-term, but that doesn't necessarily mean =
what you think. The flatness, in general, can be applied over a non-flat =
and even a dynamic, non-flat structure, in this case a pulsating toroid. =
The pulsation can give the appearance at any point in time of expansion =
or inflation or contraction. 4D advocates have long held that a =
"timeless" 4D universe must be toroidal, at least in the largest =
viewable fractal, yet it may appear spherical from any point or lesser =
fractal within. This has some interesting implications for "time =
travel".

Also since some stars formed over 13 billion years ago, it is far more =
like that intelligent life exists in far more places than previously =
thought, and far more likely that it has arrived here already, but =
probably not in physical form. Physical time travel will remain forever =
too expensive and fraught with difficulty. More likely it has arrived in =
the form of a stable "field alteration," most like a field-alteration of =
"quintessence." This concept of a "structured non-physical field" could =
also be extended to include the "morphic field", the soul, and .... =
well, let's not get too heavily into metaphysics just yet...

....but remember the downside of this particular spin on reality (for  =
the free-energy researcher, particularly)... if we don't engineer the =
ZPE free-energy extraction device properly, it might interfere with what =
is likely to be far more valuable than any earth-bound ecology...

...now  that is a sodden thought...

What is your reality spin today?

Jones



 
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	charset="Windows-1252"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) team has made the =
first=20
detailed full-sky map of the oldest light in the universe.</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm.html">http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm=
.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>*Universe is 13.7 billion years old with only a 1% margin =
error.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>*First stars ignited 200 million years after the Big Bang.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>*Light in WMAP picture from 380,000 years after the Big Bang.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>*Content of the Universe: 4% Atoms, 23% Cold Dark Matter, 73% Dark =
energy.=20
<BR></DIV>
<DIV>*"quintessence" is not ruled out. </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/11/8">http://physicsweb.or=
g/article/world/13/11/8</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>*Fast moving neutrinos do not play any major role in the evolution =
of=20
structure in the universe. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>*Expansion rate (Hubble constant) value: Ho=3D 71 km/sec/Mpc (with =
a margin=20
of error of about 5%)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now the "special interest" groups are beginning to put their =
preferred=20
"spin" on the findings.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here are some of my "spins" that vortexians might enjoy (they are=20
absolutely, guaranteed, not official)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>WMAP has determined that the matter of which we are made is only a =
small=20
portion of the Universe, 4%. 23% is an exotic type of material known as =
"cold=20
dark matter". And 73% is an even more exotic "dark energy". </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>One possibility for a potion of dark energy is known locally as ZPE =
or=20
"beta aether." It is seen as a nanometer to subnanometer isotropic =
pressure that=20
is not contingent on gravity and is balanced out by "quintessence" a =
negative=20
pressure that operates at smaller atomic and nuclear dimensions. At any =
point on=20
earth, it should be possible to tap into about 20 times more energy from =
the ZPF=20
per unit of surface area than can be derived from solar energy, about=20
20&nbsp;kwh per sq.meter. The problem is not finding the ZPF dark =
energy, as it=20
is everywhere, &nbsp;the problem&nbsp;is in creating a continuous local =
pressure=20
differential, a "sink" as it were, by juxtaposing "quintessence" against =
ZPE at=20
an artificial, or engineered, interface. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Actually, "nuclear energy" does this same kind of thing, but *in=20
reverse*...and often in an uncontrollable manner.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>WMAP has determined, within the limits of instrument error, =
that the=20
universe is flat over the long-term, but that doesn't necessarily mean =
what you=20
think.&nbsp;The flatness, in general,&nbsp;can be&nbsp;applied over a =
non-flat=20
and even a dynamic, non-flat structure,&nbsp;in this case a pulsating =
toroid.=20
The pulsation can give the appearance at any point in time =
of&nbsp;expansion or=20
inflation or contraction. 4D advocates have long held that a "timeless" =
4D=20
universe&nbsp;must&nbsp;be&nbsp;toroidal, at least in the largest =
viewable=20
fractal, yet it may appear spherical from any point or lesser fractal =
within.=20
This has some interesting implications for "time travel".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Also since some stars formed over 13 billion years ago, it is far =
more like=20
that intelligent life exists in far more places than previously thought, =
and far=20
more likely that it has arrived here already, but probably not in =
physical form.=20
Physical time travel will remain forever too expensive and fraught with=20
difficulty. More likely it has arrived in the form of a stable=20
"field&nbsp;alteration," most like a field-alteration of "quintessence." =
This=20
concept of a "structured non-physical&nbsp;field" could also be extended =
to=20
include the "morphic field", the soul, and .... well, let's not get too =
heavily=20
into metaphysics just yet...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>....but remember the downside of this particular spin on reality =
(for&nbsp;=20
the free-energy researcher, particularly)... if we don't engineer the =
ZPE=20
free-energy extraction device properly, it might interfere with what is =
likely=20
to be far more valuable than any earth-bound ecology...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...now&nbsp; that is a sodden thought...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What is your reality spin today?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Neutron beam reveals new spin on magnetism
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Neutron beam reveals new spin on magnetism

By <A HREF=3D"mailto:cbrown cmp.com">Chappell Brown</A>
   =20
<A HREF=3D"http://www.eetimes.com/">EE Times</A>
September 16, 2002 (4:16 p.m. EST)  <A HREF=3D"http://www.eetimes.com/printa=
bleArticle?doc_id=3DOEG20020916S0080"></A>>
</A>   =20
Recent Articles    =20
Technology News=20

GAITHERSBURGH, Md. =E2=80=94 A new type of magnetism that might have applica=
tions to=20
quantum computing has been observed in an exotic zincochromite (ZnCrO4)=20
crystal lattice. The Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards=20
and Technology made the discovery here using neutron beams to investigate th=
e=20
structure's spin behavior. Zinc-chromium-oxide structures were known to=20
exhibit exotic magnetic properties, which result from the inability of the=20
lattice's magnetic spins to adopt a stable configuration because of the=20
peculiar geometry of the crystal lattice. The new observations have detected=
=20
emergent structures that were not predicted by theory, showing that the spin=
=20
configurations do have a type of order. "These systems, called 'frustrated=20
magnets,' are interesting because the spin configurations can never settle=20
down into a stable long-range configuration; they have an infinite number of=
=20
ground states," said Seung-Hun Lee, a physicist at NIST's Center for Neutron=
=20
Research. The neutron observation of zincochromite's magnetic spin=20
configurations was performed by Lee and his colleagues at the NIST center=20
along with physicists at Johns Hopkins University (Baltimore) and Rutgers=20
University (Piscataway, N.J.). The geometry of zincochromite produces=20
tetrahedral corners, which make it impossible for the spin vectors of the=20
lattice's atoms to line up in stable pairs, as they do in other crystal=20
structures such as the common cubic lattice. "In any material, at high=20
temperatures, the spins are free to fluctuate =E2=80=94 it's basically a liq=
uid state=20
=E2=80=94 and as you cool the material, they normally line up, making a phas=
e change=20
to a stable solid," Lee explained. "In this particular lattice they don't=20
know where to go, and they remain in the liquid state no matter how cool the=
=20
system becomes." That makes for a physical system ripe for manifesting=20
"emergent" behavior, which is essentially what Lee's group found.Emergent=20
behavior is a key concept in neural-network theory for example, where it is=20
able to explain how high-level "intelligent" components arise from the=20
unintelligent behavior of electrons. Other unusual electronic properties,=20
such as the various forms of superconductivity, depend on large-scale=20
coordinated movements that suddenly emerge from the random movements of=20
electrons. "Condensed-matter physicists are beginning to discover similar=20
higher-order organization principles in materials. There are now two=20
approaches to understanding the behavior of materials," Lee said. "The=20
reductionist approach starts with individual particles, solves Shroedinger's=
=20
equation for the system and then generalizes from there. This has a long=20
tradition in science. The problem is computational complexity. If the number=
=20
of particles exceeds 10, the computational complexity increases=20
exponentially, making simulations impossible."The newer approach looks for=20
emergent, higher-order patterns that maintain their stability over time.=20
These structures, called a protectorate, have their own intrinsic properties=
=20
and form an essentially new entity."The neutron observations uncovered a=20
protectorate in the zincochromite spin liquid consisting of a hexagonal=20
arrangement of six anti-parallel spins. Two spin vectors form a stable unit=20
when they can line up in parallel but opposite directions (called an=20
anti-parallel configuration). Thus three spins cannot line up in a=20
magnetically neutral configuration at the corner of the lattice, but six spi=
n=20
vectors can cyclically line up so that any vector is anti-parallel to its=20
neighboring spin vectors. The larger hexagonal arrays can therefore orient=20
themselves so that a single stable spin direction appears. This configuratio=
n=20
is stable and repeats throughout the lattice, forming a crystalline structur=
e=20
with long-range order, although that structure would not be detected by=20
looking at the orientation of spins at individual corners in the lattice.=20
Mysteries solved
The discovery solves some mysteries about the magnetic behavior of=20
zincochromite and may provide some important clues to such other areas as=20
protein folding and quantum computing, said Lee. "Of course, it is too soon=20
to talk about applications, but the emergence of stable patterns of many=20
different quantum levels might be useful in the design of quantum computers,=
"=20
he said. The quantized variable physically represented by magnetic spin has=20
been used in some rudimentary logic circuits based on the theory of quantum=20
information processing. A fundamental problem facing such information=20
encoding schemes is how to preserve the quantum coherence of the system for=20=
a=20
long enough time to perform an algorithm. An emergent protectorate of quantu=
m=20
spins could open a route to solving that problem. Neutron beams have become=20=
a=20
highly useful tool for investigating electron-spin behavior. "Neutron=20
scattering gives us the most detailed information on spin correlation in=20
electrons and can be used as a local probe to detect spin behavior," Lee=20
said. Neutrons have no electric charge but do have a magnetic moment, and=20
refined beams of the particles operate like a magnetic version of an electro=
n=20
microscope.In the NIST experiment, the researchers applied Fourier transform=
s=20
to the scattered neutron beam to isolate the unusual magnetic configuration.=
   =20



Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A>































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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><B>Neutron beam reveals new spin on magnetism</FONT>=
<FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
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</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">By <A HREF=3D"mailto:cbrow=
n cmp.com">Chappell Brown</A><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">    <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000ff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><A HREF=3D"http://www.eeti=
mes.com/">EE Times</A></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-CO=
LOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">September 16, 2002 (4:16 p=
.m. EST)</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">  <IMG  SRC=3D"http:=
//img.cmpnet.com/eet/v2/print_button.gif" WIDTH=3D"79" HEIGHT=3D"21" BORDER=
=3D"0"><A HREF=3D"http://www.eetimes.com/printableArticle?doc_id=3DOEG200209=
16S0080"><IMG  SRC=3D"http://img.cmpnet.com/eet/v2/send_button.gif" WIDTH=
=3D"71" HEIGHT=3D"21" BORDER=3D"0"></A><A>
</A>    </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20=
SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"verdana" LANG=3D"0"><B>Recent Articles</FONT><=
FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"></B>     <BR>
<B>Technology News</B> <BR>
<BR>
GAITHERSBURGH, Md. =E2=80=94 A new type of magnetism that might have applica=
tions to quantum computing has been observed in an exotic zincochromite (ZnC=
rO4) crystal lattice. The Commerce Department's National Institute of Standa=
rds and Technology made the discovery here using neutron beams to investigat=
e the structure's spin behavior. Zinc-chromium-oxide structures were known t=
o exhibit exotic magnetic properties, which result from the inability of the=
 lattice's magnetic spins to adopt a stable configuration because of the pec=
uliar geometry of the crystal lattice. The new observations have detected em=
ergent structures that were not predicted by theory, showing that the spin c=
onfigurations do have a type of order. "These systems, called 'frustrated ma=
gnets,' are interesting because the spin configurations can never settle dow=
n into a stable long-range configuration; they have an infinite number of gr=
ound states," said Seung-Hun Lee, a physicist at NIST's Center for Neutron R=
esearch. The neutron observation of zincochromite's magnetic spin configurat=
ions was performed by Lee and his colleagues at the NIST center along with p=
hysicists at Johns Hopkins University (Baltimore) and Rutgers University (Pi=
scataway, N.J.). The geometry of zincochromite produces tetrahedral corners,=
 which make it impossible for the spin vectors of the lattice's atoms to lin=
e up in stable pairs, as they do in other crystal structures such as the com=
mon cubic lattice. "In any material, at high temperatures, the spins are fre=
e to fluctuate =E2=80=94 it's basically a liquid state =E2=80=94 and as you=20=
cool the material, they normally line up, making a phase change to a stable=20=
solid," Lee explained. "In this particular lattice they don't know where to=20=
go, and they remain in the liquid state no matter how cool the system become=
s." That makes for a physical system ripe for manifesting "emergent" behavio=
r, which is essentially what Lee's group found.Emergent behavior is a key co=
ncept in neural-network theory for example, where it is able to explain how=20=
high-level "intelligent" components arise from the unintelligent behavior of=
 electrons. Other unusual electronic properties, such as the various forms o=
f superconductivity, depend on large-scale coordinated movements that sudden=
ly emerge from the random movements of electrons. "Condensed-matter physicis=
ts are beginning to discover similar higher-order organization principles in=
 materials. There are now two approaches to understanding the behavior of ma=
terials," Lee said. "The reductionist approach starts with individual partic=
les, solves Shroedinger's equation for the system and then generalizes from=20=
there. This has a long tradition in science. The problem is computational co=
mplexity. If the number of particles exceeds 10, the computational complexit=
y increases exponentially, making simulations impossible."The newer approach=
 looks for emergent, higher-order patterns that maintain their stability ove=
r time. These structures, called a protectorate, have their own intrinsic pr=
operties and form an essentially new entity."The neutron observations uncove=
red a protectorate in the zincochromite spin liquid consisting of a hexagona=
l arrangement of six anti-parallel spins. Two spin vectors form a stable uni=
t when they can line up in parallel but opposite directions (called an anti-=
parallel configuration). Thus three spins cannot line up in a magnetically n=
eutral configuration at the corner of the lattice, but six spin vectors can=20=
cyclically line up so that any vector is anti-parallel to its neighboring sp=
in vectors. The larger hexagonal arrays can therefore orient themselves so t=
hat a single stable spin direction appears. This configuration is stable and=
 repeats throughout the lattice, forming a crystalline structure with long-r=
ange order, although that structure would not be detected by looking at the=20=
orientation of spins at individual corners in the lattice. <B>Mysteries solv=
ed</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The discovery solves some my=
steries about the magnetic behavior of zincochromite and may provide some im=
portant clues to such other areas as protein folding and quantum computing,=20=
said Lee. "Of course, it is too soon to talk about applications, but the eme=
rgence of stable patterns of many different quantum levels might be useful i=
n the design of quantum computers," he said. The quantized variable physical=
ly represented by magnetic spin has been used in some rudimentary logic circ=
uits based on the theory of quantum information processing. A fundamental pr=
oblem facing such information encoding schemes is how to preserve the quantu=
m coherence of the system for a long enough time to perform an algorithm. An=
 emergent protectorate of quantum spins could open a route to solving that p=
roblem. Neutron beams have become a highly useful tool for investigating ele=
ctron-spin behavior. "Neutron scattering gives us the most detailed informat=
ion on spin correlation in electrons and can be used as a local probe to det=
ect spin behavior," Lee said. Neutrons have no electric charge but do have a=
 magnetic moment, and refined beams of the particles operate like a magnetic=
 version of an electron microscope.In the NIST experiment, the researchers a=
pplied Fourier transforms to the scattered neutron beam to isolate the unusu=
al magnetic configuration.    <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 09:18:53 2003
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Message-ID: <00f101c2e8b9$ca3d3d40$46f2fc3e f7t8y3>
From: "Mike Butcher" <thebends ntlworld.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030311160253.00b08e08 pop.mindspring.com> <v01530504ba93bd761766@[12.21.208.205]> <v01530504ba93bd761766@[12.21.208.205]> <5.1.0.14.2.20030311160253.00b08e08@pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030312102840.00a95dc0@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - 
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:06:55 -0000
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I've not seen it confirmed - but about 5 hours ago a BBC political programme
reported that a listening station in the UK had picked up an Iranian  radio
transmission reporting that Bin Ladin had been captured in Pakistan.

Probably an error or a mistranlation of some sort of Iranian satirical news
feature - if they have such a thing ?

Mike Butcher

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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:36:54 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - Bin Laden captured?
In-Reply-To: <00f101c2e8b9$ca3d3d40$46f2fc3e f7t8y3>
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Mike Butcher wrote:

>I've not seen it confirmed - but about 5 hours ago a BBC political 
>programme reported that a listening station in the UK had picked up an 
>Iranian  radio transmission reporting that Bin Ladin had been captured in 
>Pakistan.

Goodness! There is nothing about at CNN.com or the other big news pages. 
Perhaps it is true but the authorities have hushed up the story for now, 
while they interrogate and review captured documents, so they can grab 
other fugatives. I wish they had done that the other day, when they 
captured the #2 man.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 10:16:19 2003
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:11:11 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: LENR-CANR going great guns . . . what is new to readers?
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LENR-CANR visits & downloads are at record highs this week. There was 
unusual activity on Sunday, probably as a result of the APS session, which 
attracted about 70 people. The most popular paper this week is Passell, 
about K. Wolf.

This week so far 3,628 papers have been downloaded. Today 1,623  were 
downloaded, including 1,001 copies of Passell.

A thought just occurred to me while looking at these numbers. Kevin Wolf's 
work is old hat to me and to most others familiar with CF. It is important, 
but I have known about it for years, and I overlooked the impact is has on 
people new to the field. I should have realized that readers will want to 
know about this, and I should have uploaded this file months ago. Here is a 
question for people who have read a lot about cold fusion. Have I 
overlooked other, important or exciting papers? There are nearly 3,000 
papers in our database, and hundreds of others we have not yet added to the 
database. I have only 164 on file, 5% or less.

I am afraid readership will fall off drastically if war is declared, just 
when we are on a roll. Talk about a parochial concern! People getting blown 
up, the world on the brink of nuclear war in Korea, and I am sitting here 
worried that foggy-brained academic scientists may download fewer obscure 
papers written years ago by researchers who are now mostly retired or dead.

- Jed


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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:33:50 EST
Subject: Re: Are you a liberal?
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In a message dated 3/11/2003 6:20:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:

> thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> >I met with this man last evening when he was in the Twin Cites. I
> >gave up listening to Rush Limbaugh's program because he is so much
> >better. He is very intellectual, and insightful.
> >
> >He mentioned this article which sums up how the radical left has
> >hijacked the name liberal and twisted it into something quite
> >different. As The Savage has pointed out, they are quite illiberal.
> >http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html

Rush does do a good job in making politics attractive and fun to listen to, 
and he does seem to come up with good catch phrases that are quite accurate. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/11/2003 6:20:11 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, storms2 ix.netcom.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">thomas malloy wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;I met with this man last evening when he was in the Twin Cites. I<BR>
&gt;gave up listening to Rush Limbaugh's program because he is so much<BR>
&gt;better. He is very intellectual, and insightful.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;He mentioned this article which sums up how the radical left has<BR>
&gt;hijacked the name liberal and twisted it into something quite<BR>
&gt;different. As The Savage has pointed out, they are quite illiberal.<BR>
&gt;http://www.dennisprager.com/articles_by/liberal.html</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Rush does do a good job in making politics attractive and fun to listen to,=20=
and he does seem to come up with good catch phrases that are quite accurate.=
 <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:43:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Neither : Are you a liberal?
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Kyle posted;

>Just my $2x10^-2.....


>BTW, can someone please tell me what the "great left
>wing conspiracy" and the "great right wing conspiracy"
>are? Never encountered such an animal myself...

The left wing, right wing thing is an allusion. It's about 
authoritianism verses libertarian ideas. This website talks about the 
underlying forces behind the coming New World Odor, ups, I mean 
Order. http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/nworder03.html

The alternative physics there leads to the synopsis of a book which 
was written by a PhD in physics. I downloaded it and squeezed it into 
a 15 page document, which I will read and discuss. To be continued...

>
>Helplessly hoping for peace on earth for all mankind,
>

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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:34:50 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR going great guns . . . what is new to readers?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>

"A thought just occurred to me while looking at these numbers. Kevin Wolf's 
work is old hat to me and to most others familiar with CF. It is important, 
but I have known about it for years, and I overlooked the impact is has on 
people new to the field." 

Perhaps you should  have held onto that thought a little longer ;-)

Could it be that the importance of the recent uploads of this paper was not "the impact is has on people new to the field," but instead that the people who have "known about it for years" overlooked and neglected what could well be the most important item in this paper?

...that being that substantial amount of a rare and extremely radioactive silver isotope was found in surprisingly large quantities, weeks after the run, in fact, the implication of the short half-life of this species being such that a great deal of followup work should have been forthcoming years ago - that is, had not the authors and everyone else who has "known about it for years." failed to take the time to go to the isotope tables, find out just what they were dealing with, and try to get a handle on the full implications of what was discovered a decade ago...

Of course, as Ed mentioned, the exact nautre of the radioactivity of Ag-106 does not seem to be universally recognized, and I have written to a colleague to try to clear this up, but the short half-life of Ag-106 is not in debate.

I don't want to trivialize in any way the important work that was accomplished here, but as I said in the originating post::
"WOW! If this is true...Somebody slipped up, big time !"

That sentiment hasn't changed...I just hope that someone with the proper CF setup can and will now be interested enough to reproduce the Wolf experiment to determine if Ag-106 is really there or not, and whether or not it continues to be formed in situ for weeks after the experiment is turned off...

BLP is the laboratory that ought do it (a replication), as Mills' CQM theory has a lot to gain if some of our recent specualtion about the source of the Ag-106 is accurate...but Mills' doesn't want to be associated with CF in any way and he has made that abundantly clear on many occassions (his loss, someone else's gain) ...so let's hope that someone who is both qualified and not jealous or threatened by Mills' theory comes forward and undertakes a replication of Wolf's experiment..

Jones

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Subject: Re: Are you a liberal? Have you hidden a Thesta-Distatica
  generator?
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thomas malloy wrote:

>. . . He also points out that having children makes you progressively more 
>conservative.

Where did he hear this? Did he cite evidence for it? I have read lots of 
social science research, and I have not heard that having children 
correlates with a shift toward conservatism. As far as I know, reliable 
predictive factors for political views or voting patterns include such 
things as generation cohort, social class and geographic origin. 
"Generation cohort" means the era in which you come of age. For example, 
most people who came of age during the Great Depression have been Roosevelt 
democrats all of their lives. As far as I know, there is no indication they 
become more conservative as they grew older. (And the Republican minority 
in that age group has not grown less conservative.)


>The other factor being religion.

There may be a correlation, at least in the U.S. and Europe. Maybe not in 
Korea or China. Postwar Japan is essentially irreligious, but it is very 
conservative in politics.

People who make statements like this on radio or in the newspapers 
often  know little about the subject. They repeat urban myths and long 
standing folk beliefs, which are about as reliable of folk medicine. 
Academic social science researchers and anthropologists may be equally 
clueless, but you can check their footnotes, follow up, and find out 
whether a claims is reasonable, or whether it is based on a sample of 5 
respondents, as I once found looking up a statement about Japanese high 
school education.

That's the key difference between academic research and amateur, 
newspaper-columnist pontificating. This distinction is important to CF and 
other o-u energy. You can judge an academic research paper. You can find 
out, follow up footnotes, ask questions, or read textbooks. You cannot draw 
conclusions about many fringe claims. They do not include enough 
information. They are neither right nor wrong. Many substandard CF papers 
in proceedings are like this. Ed Storms once said that with regard to 
"magic motors" and some other fringe claims, there is no follow up and no 
attempts at replication, whereas when you look up some aspect of CF, in 
metallurgy let us say, you find dozens of papers. For example, from K. Tutt 
chapter 5, a cult in Switzerland supposedly has a Baumann 
"Thesta-Distatica" generator. However, depending on the version of the 
story you hear, no one outside the cult has seen it, or no one has tried to 
replicate, or no one has succeeded in replicating. This information is 
useless. It is tantamount to knowing nothing.

- Jed


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: SETI home virtual supercomputer
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:52:03 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:00:41 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>Progress in alienology. See:
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,57992,00.html
>
>- Jed
>
Quote:
"A thorough search for signs of intelligent life would include a much wider swath of the electromagnetic spectrum."

My comment: No, a search for *intelligent* life would ignore the electromagnetic spectrum altogether.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:07:51 -0500
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR going great guns . . . what is new to readers?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Could it be that the importance of the recent uploads of this paper was 
>not "the impact is has on people new to the field," but instead that the 
>people who have "known about it for years" overlooked and neglected what 
>could well be the most important item in this paper?

Possibly, but I doubt it. I suspect the Passel paper is being downloaded by 
people who are new to the field, and have not seen or heard about these 
results before. I say this because:

1. The total number of copies downloaded is 2,224. This is just a guess, 
but I imagine that is more than the number of people who made a serious 
study of the CF literature prior to October 2002, based on the head count 
at ICCF conferences, subscribers to Infinite Energy and so on. These have 
to be new people! There are not enough old ones.

2. There was little or no mention of this paper at LENR-CANR.org or 
Infinite-Energy.com, and not much elsewhere on the web, based on a Google 
search.

3. Passell has been handing out these papers for years, and everyone I know 
in CF already has copy. Even if everyone close to the field downloaded a 
new copy that would not equal 2,224, and why would they bother? The printed 
copies are better. (I reduced the PDF images to 200 dpi to save space, and 
I did not OCR Passell's text, the way I usually do. The formatting was too 
complicated.)


>I don't want to trivialize in any way the important work that was 
>accomplished here, but as I said in the originating post::
>"WOW! If this is true...Somebody slipped up, big time !"

That is extremely unlikely. K. Wolf and his colleagues at TAMU were among 
the best in the world at spectroscopy and the study of elements and 
isotopes, according to McKubre and many others. The samples were taken to 
two major West Coast labs, which confirmed the results and the conclusion 
that these elements were transmuted, not contamination. I doubt they 
concurred with Wolf's WIMP hypothesis. The results were discussed 
intensively for years by Wolf and other researchers, although nothing was 
published. I do not know how Wolf might have explained the point you raise. 
He is dead, and I do not know how to contact his colleagues. I will ask 
Passell when I get a chance, but I expect they took into account the point 
you raised.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: 1st MOAB a MOGB dud?
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	What is-are MOAB or MOGB?

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Horace Heffner wrote:

> In the the TV news video the first MOAB appeared to me to be detonated at
> too low an altitude, thus not diffusing and adequate air volume.  Thus it
> was a ground burst, not an air burst?  Probably a dud.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

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John Schnurer wrote:

>         What is-are MOAB or MOGB?

John:

Please learn to use the http://www.google.com/ or some other search tool to 
answer this kind of question. In this case, a quick search reveals nothing, 
but you should also please learn to scroll back through previous messages 
and select the link Terry Blanton provided:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm

To answer your question, MOAB and MOGBs are the latest expression of 
mankind's oldest and deepest passion, and his most sublime & celebrated art 
form: mass murder. Many geniuses throughout the ages have devoted their 
creative energy to this, from Da Vinci to Fermi, Oppenheimer, Teller, and 
the unsung people at Los Alamos today. We celebrate this art in our 
greatest works of literature from the Iliad to Hamlet. That's primates for 
ya! Ya' gotta love 'em.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:07:25 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?
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I apologize for introducing yet another an off-topic discussion of war & 
peace, but I am sure it is on everyone's mind, worldwide. I would like to 
add one more note to the debate. I grant that the decisions are difficult, 
the situation is grim, and the arguments on both sides have merit. Like 
many other turning points and tragic events in history, this is 
excruciatingly complex and difficult to judge. No honest anti-war protester 
will fail to admit that Saddam Hussein is a horrible tyrant. No honest 
person who advocates war will deny that war causes incalculable suffering, 
and the outcome is impossible to predict. Yet it seem to me that many of 
these issues can be swept aside with a simple philosophical trick -- one 
that can be used to good advantage when addressing other moral quandaries. 
If you advocate war, you must ask yourself: Would I, personally, be willing 
to risk my life for this cause? Would I risk my children's life for it?

I think any patriotic Iraqi citizen should answer "yes." It is their 
nation, their future, and their cause. But I am not Iraqi. There are 
countless just wars and bloody struggles in this world, but precious few 
that I personally would be willing to participate in, even though my heart 
goes out to the victims of genocide and oppression. I think that any U.S. 
or British hawk who would not personally be willing to risk death in this 
fight is a hypocrite, or one who values his countrymen's lives less than 
his own, which is unpatriotic and abominable. It is no excuse to say "the 
people in our army volunteered for this. They knew there was a risk." That 
is not a morally acceptable argument, in my opinion. Our soldiers are not 
mercenaries or gladiators. In a war, everyone should be willing to share 
the risks and sacrifices.  In fact, in this upcoming war, giving the 
likelihood of a terrorist attack, we *do* all share the risk, more than in 
any previous conflict.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:21:22 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Ritter
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>At 10:33 AM 3/11/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>  >In reply to  Horace Heffner's message:
>  >
>
>>As for the true situation in Iraq, neither you nor I are as well informed
>>as one who has been involved first hand in Iraq's disarmament.
>>May I suggest the you read some of the public statements being made by
>>Scott Ritter.
>
>
>I have seen him make statements on TV.  He does not seem to me to be a
>highly rational person.

He got caught molesting children and suddenly changed sides. Were I 
come from, that is called being a turn coat, a hanging offense.

>Terrorism is a bankrupt tactic.  Those who unrelentingly engage in
>terrorism against a greater power, who repeatedly target and murder
>civilian populations,  will eventually be annihilated.

Possibly, however as long as perceived injustices continue to exist,
there will always be those who struggle against them, in whatever way they can.

What injustices? They have subjected themselves to a religious system 
which engenders dictatorships. They hate all of us because we are 
free. The people whom they find most offensive, the Hollyweird smut 
merchants are their most vocal supporters.

>
>When you are counting the dead, remember who started it.
>
We know who started this, Sodamn Insane. Actually he's not insane, he 
just wants to King Nebbuchanezer II.

BTW, Van Spraandonk, do you remember Bali? The Australian mainland is next!

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Same g(G)_d?
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>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>The Christian God, the God of
>>the Jews, and Allah the God of Islam, are all the same God, the God of
>>Abraham.
>
>By the definition of monotheism, this must be true.  How can all be 
>so blind to this fact?

Wrong!! We worship Yahweh, may his name be blessed. They worship 
Allah, the moon god.
>
>"What are you going to tell your God when you stand before him?  How 
>are you going to explain killing your brothers in His name sake?"
>
>It was a chilling and enlightening scene.

Read the Korhan! They are obligated to kill the infidels.


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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:53:28 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Logical fallacy regarding Scott Ritter
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>I have seen him make statements on TV.  He does not seem to me to be a
>>highly rational person.
>
>He got caught molesting children and suddenly changed sides. Were I come 
>from, that is called being a turn coat, a hanging offense.

That argument is ad hominem, a logical fallacy. See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

In some cases an ad hominem argument is valid, such as in debate about 
personal behavior or sexual morality. Ritter might be accused of hypocrisy, 
for example, although this might turn into a related fallacy, Ad Hominem Tu 
Quoque.

In a debate over a logical or technical issue, ad hominem is not valid. You 
cannot be a "hypocrite" about rocket motor performance or anthrax. I have 
not read Ritter's books or heard him speak, so I cannot judge, but if he 
discusses only technical facts about weapons inspections, and if the facts 
he musters in support of his argument are generally agreed to be correct by 
both sides, then his personal proclivities are irrelevant. Even if he were 
a confessed murderer on death row, that should not affect one's evaluation 
of his argument.

The list I cite above is pretty comprehensive. It includes some of my 
favorites, such as:

* Confusing Cause and Effect

* Misleading Vividness

* Biased Sample

* Appeal to Consequences of a Belief (wishful thinking); "X is true because 
if people did not accept X as being true then there would be negative 
consequences."

People debating CF should memorize this list. And people working on Cold 
Fusion should print out the last essay written by Wilbur Wright a few weeks 
before he died at age 45. They should tape it to the wall, and read it 
every day. The theme is Tempus Tugit (time flies), something I would like 
to communicate to Dennis Letts just about now. Perhaps I should add it to 
LENR-CANR.org.

- Jed


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thomas malloy wrote:

>> Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>> The Christian God, the God of
>>> the Jews, and Allah the God of Islam, are all the same God, the God of
>>> Abraham.
>>
>>
>> By the definition of monotheism, this must be true.  How can all be 
>> so blind to this fact?
>
>
> Wrong!! We worship Yahweh, may his name be blessed. They worship 
> Allah, the moon god. 


This is a very interesting point.  While watching ambulances moving 
through Jerusalem, I noticed that some have a red cross and some have a 
red crescent.  Now, the cross (actually, the cross surrounded by a 
circle) is an ancient sun sign dating back to Sumeria.  The crescent, I 
assume represents the moon.

One or more of the dead sea scrolls speaks of a battle between the 
children of light and the children of dark as a prophecy.  Is this 
speaking of  the sun symbol and the moon symbol?

Also, I have a question.  Is the g(G)_d of Abraham the same who led the 
Jews out of Egypt and led the slaughter of the Philistines?  There seems 
to be a difference between the two in terms of how they delt with humans.

BTW, no offense is intended.  My personal deiological beliefs are far 
more bizarre.  I'm just curious.



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Subject: TOPIC: IRAQ: scott ritter recordings url
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Scott Ritter on "War with Iraq" at Deerfield Academy, Deerfield, MA on 
October 15, 2002

speech and q&a
available in mp3, pdf, doc

http://www.traprockpeace.org/recorder101602.html


Steve 

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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:27:04 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
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One implication of the Wolf experiments and the residual radioactivity =
found in the cathodes, revolves around a rare and extremely radioactive =
isotope of silver. How radioactive is Ag-106?

To put it into a more easily understood perspective, most of us have =
some appreciation for the extreme radioactivity of radium, which is =
itself a decay product in the Uranium and Thorium chains. There are four =
key radium isotopes, the most prevalent being Ra-236. For comparative =
purposes, Ag-106 appears to be about 37 million times more radioactive =
than this isotope of radium in terms of decays per milligram per second. =
It all should be gone in a few days unless it is being replenished.=20

This is one reason why I believe that the Wolf results could be in error =
on that particular isotope, but not on transmutation in general, and not =
on silver isotopes in particular, especially Ag-110. If memory serves, =
others besides Wolf have found 110 silver in CF cathodes.

Mention was made last November of the Cold Fusion patent by Arie de Geus =
and his contention that the properties of certain catalytic isotopes, =
those which carry an abnormal excess of  neutrons, [as defined in his =
book and in the patent]  function as "nucleonic catalysts" in the =
presence of protons or deuterons. This is a new concept - as catalysts =
typically only function through electrons in the outer shell of atoms.

IF he is correct...AND IF hydrogen "shrinkage below ground state" is =
also an instrumental, or even essential, first step in the broader field =
of cold fusion and other forms of LENR, where shrinkage of deuterium to =
a deuterino is the first step towards creating a higher probability i.e. =
a higher "cross-section"  for either D+D fusion, or deuterium tunneling =
into Pd, or even a new kind of accelerated decay brought on by proximity =
of a hydrogen nucleus inside the Pd k-shell...=20

THEN, the likely "active" material for cold fusion reactions can be =
pinpointed specifically as 110 Palladium, a stable isotope that is 11.7 =
% of natural and is unique in many respects, not the least of which is =
its large mass increase over the next lower-Z stable element in the =
periodic table, which is 102 Rhodium. Although Pd-110 is stable in =
normal circumstances, let us suppose that the occasional presence of a =
deuteron or deuterino, accelerated into the k-shell, is then able to =
disrupt the coulomb charge balance and stimulate the overloaded Pd-110 =
nucleus to beta decay to Ag-110 - which is exactly an isotope that Wolf =
found. This k-shell interaction would logically have a zillion-fold =
higher probability than actual tunneling into the nucleus or even D+D =
fusion, based on geometric distances. And we can be pretty sure that =
Wolf did find Ag-110.

This jump of nearly 7% in nuclear mass of Pd-110 is also important =
because of palladium's ability to absorb and contain hydrogen in its =
matrix under what is essentially extreme pressure and to insure that the =
D is in an atomic (or at least occasionally atomic) state. This jump in =
nuclear mass of 110 Pd is extreme among heavier hydrogen-absorbing =
elements... But one of the few similarly large increases (actually =
larger percentage-wise) is found in 50Titanium (over 45Scandium). There =
have actually been a few reports of cold fusion using titanium in the =
early years after the P&F announcement!   Is this merely coincidental?

50 Ti is unfortunately only 5% of natural titanium. If it were a higher =
percentage, or if experimenters had ready access to an enriched form of =
this isotope, 50Ti, then CF research would possibly be focusing on =
titanium rather then palladium... I wish someone would try it...

BTW,  should anyone want to check out De Geus claims, he says that =
numerous laboratory runs have been made (more than 1,000 hours), during =
which fractional hydrogen and excess  energy were being produced.... The =
technology has supposedly been certified by a respected laboratory:  =
Applied Technical Services Inc., 1280 Field Parkway, Marietta, Ga., =
30066, USA. The report number is M14343 and is dated March 01, 2001"

Jones
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>One implication of the Wolf experiments and the residual =
radioactivity=20
found in the cathodes, revolves around&nbsp;a rare and extremely =
radioactive=20
isotope of silver. How radioactive is Ag-106?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To put it into a more easily understood perspective, most of us =
have some=20
appreciation for the extreme radioactivity of radium, which is itself a =
decay=20
product in the Uranium and Thorium chains. There are four key radium =
isotopes,=20
the most prevalent being&nbsp;Ra-236. For comparative purposes,=20
Ag-106&nbsp;appears to be&nbsp;about&nbsp;37 million times more =
radioactive than=20
this isotope of radium in terms of decays per milligram per second. It =
all=20
should be gone in a few days unless it is being replenished. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is one reason why I believe that the Wolf results could be in =
error on=20
that particular isotope,&nbsp;but not on transmutation in general, and =
not on=20
silver isotopes in particular, especially&nbsp;Ag-110. If memory serves, =
others=20
besides Wolf&nbsp;have found 110 silver in CF cathodes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Mention&nbsp;was&nbsp;made last November of the Cold Fusion patent =
by Arie=20
de Geus and his contention that the properties of certain catalytic =
isotopes,=20
those&nbsp;which carry an abnormal excess of &nbsp;neutrons, [as defined =
in his=20
book and in the patent]&nbsp; function as "nucleonic catalysts" in the =
presence=20
of protons or deuterons. This is a new concept - as catalysts typically =
only=20
function through electrons in the outer shell of atoms.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IF&nbsp;he is correct...AND&nbsp;IF hydrogen "shrinkage below =
ground state"=20
is also an instrumental, or even essential, first step in the broader =
field of=20
cold fusion and other forms of LENR, where shrinkage of deuterium to a =
deuterino=20
is the first step towards creating a higher probability i.e. a higher=20
"cross-section" &nbsp;for either D+D fusion, or deuterium tunneling into =
Pd, or=20
even a new kind of accelerated decay brought on by proximity of a =
hydrogen=20
nucleus inside the Pd k-shell... </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>THEN, the likely "active" material for cold fusion reactions can be =

pinpointed specifically as 110 Palladium, a stable isotope that is 11.7 =
% of=20
natural and is unique in many respects, not the least of which is its =
large mass=20
increase over the next lower-Z stable element in the periodic table, =
which is=20
102 Rhodium. Although&nbsp;Pd-110 is stable in normal circumstances, let =
us=20
suppose that the occasional presence of a deuteron or deuterino,=20
accelerated&nbsp;into the k-shell, is&nbsp;then able to disrupt the =
coulomb=20
charge balance and stimulate the overloaded Pd-110 nucleus to beta decay =
to=20
Ag-110 - which is exactly an isotope that Wolf found. This k-shell =
interaction=20
would logically have a zillion-fold higher probability than actual =
tunneling=20
into the nucleus or even D+D fusion, based on geometric distances. And =
we can be=20
pretty sure that Wolf did find Ag-110.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This jump of nearly 7% in nuclear mass of Pd-110&nbsp;is also =
important=20
because of palladium's ability to absorb and contain hydrogen in its =
matrix=20
under what is essentially extreme pressure and&nbsp;to insure that the D =
is in=20
an atomic (or at least occasionally atomic) state. This jump in nuclear =
mass of=20
110 Pd is extreme among heavier hydrogen-absorbing elements... =
But&nbsp;one of=20
the few&nbsp;similarly large increases (actually larger percentage-wise) =
is=20
found in 50Titanium (over 45Scandium).&nbsp;There have actually been a =
few=20
reports of cold fusion using titanium in the early years after the =
P&amp;F=20
announcement!&nbsp;&nbsp; Is this merely coincidental?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>50&nbsp;Ti is unfortunately only 5% of natural titanium. If it were =
a=20
higher percentage, or if experimenters had ready access to an enriched =
form of=20
this isotope, 50Ti, then CF research would possibly be focusing on =
titanium=20
rather then palladium... I wish someone would try it...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW,&nbsp; should anyone want to check out De Geus claims, he says=20
that&nbsp;numerous laboratory runs have been made (more than 1,000 =
hours),=20
during which fractional hydrogen and excess&nbsp; energy were being =
produced....=20
The technology has supposedly been certified by a respected =
laboratory:&nbsp;=20
Applied Technical Services Inc., 1280 Field Parkway, Marietta, Ga., =
30066, USA.=20
The report number is M14343 and is dated March 01, 2001"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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In a message dated 3/12/2003 10:18:53 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
thebends ntlworld.com writes:

> I've not seen it confirmed - but about 5 hours ago a BBC political programme
> reported that a listening station in the UK had picked up an Iranian  radio
> transmission reporting that Bin Ladin had been captured in Pakistan.
> 

I heard this also, from a source unrelated to the news services   --  
hopefully that will turn out to be accurate.
                                                                       Ken

                                                                   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/12/2003 10:18:53 AM Mountain Stan=
dard Time, thebends ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I've not seen it confirmed - bu=
t about 5 hours ago a BBC political programme<BR>
reported that a listening station in the UK had picked up an Iranian&nbsp; r=
adio<BR>
transmission reporting that Bin Ladin had been captured in Pakistan.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I heard this also, from a source unrelated to the news services&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
--&nbsp; hopefully that will turn out to be accurate.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
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p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></HTML>

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 <v01530504ba93bd761766 [12.21.208.205]>
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 <5.1.0.14.2.20030312135745.02e42f18 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:08:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Are you a liberal? Have you hidden a Thesta-Distatica  
 generator?
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>thomas malloy wrote:

And Jed Rothwell responded;


>
>>. . . He also points out that having children makes you 
>>progressively more conservative.
>
>Where did he hear this? Did he cite evidence for it? I have read 
>lots of social science

This is Dennis Prager's opinion, I just happen to agree with him.

>
>>The other factor being religion.
>
>There may be a correlation, at least in the U.S. and Europe. Maybe 
>not in Korea or China. Postwar Japan is essentially irreligious, but 
>it is very conservative in politics.
>
Dennis is coming from a Jewish perspective.

Take the Dennis Prager challenge, Listen to him for a few shows and 
see how much of what he says you agree with. If he's not broadcast in 
your area, you can find a link to a streaming audio on the Internet 
at www.am1280thepatriot.com

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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:26:53 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Logical fallacy regarding Scott Ritter
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>>I have seen him make statements on TV.  He does not seem to me to be a
>>>highly rational person.
>>
>>He got caught molesting children and suddenly changed sides. Were I 
>>come from, that is called being a turn coat, a hanging offense.
>
>That argument is ad hominem, a logical fallacy. See:

Thanks for the URL, Jed, I'll visit that website. I listened to Scott 
interviewed on the radio when he first came back from Iraq. He was 
complaining about how Sadam was refusing to cooperate, and how the 
American Government refused to back him up in his efforts to destroy 
their banned weapons. The next thing I heard from him was saying that 
we should stay out of Iraq. So which Scott Ritter should be believe? 
Then I heard about the Child molestation charges. Now people who 
engage in that sort of thing are subject to blackmail. I don't know, 
it makes perfect sense to me.
>
>
>
People debating CF should memorize this list. And people working on 
Cold Fusion should print out the last essay written by Wilbur Wright 
a few weeks before he died at age 45. They should tape it to the 
wall, and read it every day. The theme is Tempus

Are you going to post this on the LENR site? or are you saying that 
we should all go to that site and read it?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 12 23:47:45 2003
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:46:57 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: The Same g(G)_d?
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And Terry Blanton continued;

>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>>
>>>>The Christian God, the God of
>>>>the Jews, and Allah the God of Islam, are all the same God, the God of
>>>>Abraham.
>>>
>>>
>>>By the definition of monotheism, this must be true.  How can all 
>>>be so blind to this fact?
>>
>>
>>Wrong!! We worship Yahweh, may his name be blessed. They worship 
>>Allah, the moon god.
>
>  The crescent, I assume represents the moon.

You got it! The Islamists believe that they are worshiping the G-d of 
Abraham, despite all evidence to the contrary. In addition to having 
a different name, he also instituted a different legal system, Sharia 
as opposed to Torah.

>
>One or more of the dead sea scrolls speaks of a battle between the 
>children of light and the children of dark as a prophecy.  Is this 
>speaking of  the sun symbol and the moon symbol?

The battle between the Children of Israel and the Children of Edom

>
>Also, I have a question.  Is the g(G)_d of Abraham the same who led 
>the Jews out of Egypt and led the slaughter of the Philistines? 
>There seems to be a difference between the two in terms of how they 
>delt with humans.

He says that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Since the 
Eloheim has three personalities, it can appear contradictory.

>
>BTW, no offense is intended.  My personal deiological beliefs are 
>far more bizarre.  I'm just curious.

As I told the Rabbi, I have a thick skin.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 01:05:17 2003
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Various Vorts have been puttinhg forward  points of view that seem ditinctly
Yank like to us non Americans.


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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?
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Jed -

>In a war, everyone should be willing to share the risks and sacrifices. 
> In fact, in this upcoming war, giving the likelihood of a terrorist attack, 
>we *do* all share the risk, more than in any previous conflict.

I think you came pretty close to answering your own question, but you are wrong about "upcoming"  - should be "ongoing". 

The logic of the notion that we increase our risk by defeating our enemies escapes me. Is our risk less now after chasing the rats out of their Afghanistan haven and pursuing them worldwide, or do you feel worse off? ? I say it is time to make them show how willing *their* people are to risk and sacrifice *everything* for *their* cause, to loosly paraphrase Patton. If a culture or a religion, like the Taliban, or Islamic extremists, or some racists/nationalists or whatever go against us, we should prove to them and their apologists and supporters that it is they who suffer the far more serious risk of ultimate defeat and even extinction. Empty words and UN resolutions decrease their risk, as do all forms of appeasement. It's time we reverse that risk trend. 

So to your question: yes. And on that point, all we need is one armed goon to realize that for the same risk (at odds approaching 1 of course) plus a bullet or two, he could go out as a national and world hero, save countless numbers of his own people, and elevate his cause or culture by Doing The Right Thing and fragging Saddam, Mullah Omar, UBL, Kimmie The Nuke Kook, or whoever. Now THAT's the proper way to share the risk!  ;)

- RM

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thomas malloy wrote:

>
> You got it! The Islamists believe that they are worshiping the G-d of 
> Abraham, despite all evidence to the contrary. In addition to having a 
> different name, he also instituted a different legal system, Sharia as 
> opposed to Torah. 


Then, this source of Sharia, h(H)e is presumed to exist?  Is he a lesser 
g(G)_d?

>
> The battle between the Children of Israel and the Children of Edom 


Are the Children of Edom the progeny of Ishmael, the son of the 
handmaiden, Hagar, as in:

'Once again an angel of G-d spoke to Hagar promising her that Ishmael 
would become "a great nation."'

http://www.torah.org/projects/genesis/topic6.html


Terry



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thomas malloy wrote:

>>>. . . He also points out that having children makes you progressively 
>>>more conservative.
>>
>>Where did he hear this? Did he cite evidence for it? I have read lots of 
>>social science
>
>This is Dennis Prager's opinion, I just happen to agree with him.

I think technically this should be called his impression, not opinion. 
Having children may or may not make people more conservative; that is 
a  matter of fact. If it can be determined, it can only be determined by 
doing social science research, looking at voting records and so on.

Of course many times people's impressions are correct. I compared them to 
"folk medicine," which also works surprisingly well in some cases. However, 
I doubt this particular assertion is true. I would have to review the 
literature carefully, but I do not recall any evidence for it.

Perhaps this is a case of wishful thinking (Appeal to Consequences of a 
Belief). In other words, Prager thinks that a parent should become more 
conservative, it would be better for the parent and child to become more 
conservative, and therefore he assumes that parents do, in fact, become 
more conservative.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Logical fallacy regarding Scott Ritter
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thomas malloy wrote:

>  American Government refused to back him up in his efforts to destroy 
> their banned weapons. The next thing I heard from him was saying that we 
> should stay out of Iraq. So which Scott Ritter should be believe?

The one best supported by the facts and most logical.


>  Then I heard about the Child molestation charges. Now people who engage 
> in that sort of thing are subject to blackmail. I don't know, it makes 
> perfect sense to me.

If there is evidence for that, then an ad hominem argument may be valid. 
However, I covered this eventuality in my first statement: ". . . if the 
facts he musters in support of his argument are generally agreed to be 
correct by both sides." If the facts are questionable, and he has 
reputation as a liar, or there is evidence he is being blackmailed, then ad 
hominem  doubts are appropriate. Weapons inspections are extremely 
complicated and many facts about them must remain unknown or classified, so 
arguments can seldom be based strictly on logic applied to a limited, 
closed set of clear-cut facts. Personal credibility may well enter the 
picture, opening the door to an ad hominem attack.

However, if this is open hand of cards (as it were), and everyone agrees 
about the facts, then the only errors Ritter can make would be in logic. 
That would rule out ad hominem arguments. This is a purely hypothetical 
example (which I am making up as I go alone), but suppose experts in 
nuclear weapons all agree that a separation plant can be no smaller than 
100 meters across; you cannot build one underground; and the plants emit a 
certain amount of heat roughly proportional to the amount of Pu that is 
separated. Suppose a plant that emits only 1 KW would take hundreds of 
years to produce a critical mass of Pu. Suppose, further, that our aircraft 
can detect heat emissions and facilities of a certain size or above. In 
that case, we can logically rule out the possibility that Iraq is secretly 
preparing Pu.

Logic is transparent. A logical argument is evaluated on its own merits, 
regardless of who makes it. Even if the speaker has as ulterior motive, he 
cannot distort logic. That is like trying to change the laws of 
mathematics. To make an analogy, suppose Ritter is an accountant and we 
suspect he may be defrauding the company. We might suspect the numbers in 
his ledger are wrong; he is lying. But we cannot suspect that he has 
distorted the laws of arithmetic and fooled us into thinking 2 + 2 = 5, in 
a sleight of hand trick. To put it another way, you can cheat at poker, 
where the cards are hidden, but no one can cheat at chess.

In an analogy to experiments, we might suspect that Mizuno is lying when 
said his heat after death cell was palpably hot and it evaporated 37.5 
liters. But once we accept these statements as fact, we cannot argue that 
Mizuno has somehow fooled us when he claims this proves the cell produced 
energy beyond the limits of chemistry. The conclusion follows, independent 
of Mizuno himself. (That is a rather trivial example, yet some s.p.f. 
skeptics actually do make this mistake. They say "we can't trust Mizuno's 
evaluation," as if they were incapable evaluating it themselves.)

Ritter might be making any number of logical errors, such as selectively 
ignoring data or trying to prove a negative, but such mistakes should be 
clear to anyone sufficiently knowledgeable about weapons. The merits of an 
argument can be determined regardless of motives. To take an extreme case, 
an argument proposed by Saddam Hussein himself might be perfectly correct, 
and even though we know he is strongly biased in his own favor, we can have 
confidence in our ability to judge his arguments.


>And people working on Cold Fusion should print out the last essay written 
>by Wilbur Wright a few weeks before he died at age 45. They should tape it 
>to the wall, and read it every day. The theme is Tempus
>
>Are you going to post this on the LENR site? or are you saying that we 
>should all go to that site and read it?

I am not sure what to do with it. It does not fit the site well. We are 
thinking of opening a "Editorial" section. I might put it there. It is 
awkward starting this section, because people will not submit material 
until we ask for it, and we do not want to ask for it on the web site 
because we fear no one will respond, which will make up look silly.

- Jed


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Hi Rick,

You write:
>The logic of the notion that we increase our risk by
>defeating our enemies escapes me.

It's not such a stretch. Let's look at Israel for example.
Has Ariel Sharrons response to the Palestinian uprising
made Tel Aviv a safe and secure city? Sharron is flattening
the houses and the families of suicide bombers. You might
think this would deter such activity. But of course, it
does just the opposite.

Terrorism is an asymetric threat, and requires an
entirely different approach to countering it than what
we might do in the case of a threat from a nation/state.

It's fair to say that in the case of Iraq, there are
no more adamant supporters of our invasion than Osama
Bin Ladin and his band of merry muslims. He must be
just delighted at the notion of us killing one of his
oldest and most hated enemies. Conversely, until the
invasion of Kuwait, Saddam was our greatest ally in
the war on Islamic terrorism. He's probably killed more
fundamentalist Islamists than we have, even at this
stage. That's why we supported him throughout the 
80's, providing the seeds for his fancy bioweapons
research and intelligence and
weapons for his war against the fundamentalist state
of Iran. This is hardly tin foil hat stuff, this
is a matter of record traceable to public pentagon
sources. This is also why most people who've studies
the region scoff at the notion of an alliance between
these two. I think Hussein would probably like such
an alliance, but imagine Osama trying to sell this
idea to his troops. "Sure Osama, we'd be delighted
to lay down our lives for the infidel dog who
killed our muslim relatives with chemical weapons...
Where do we sign up??"

On the other hand, if you were Osama, you'd try to
convince the West that you and Saddam were the
best of friends. Which is more or less what's he's
been doing, at least to the point where he can
still have credibility amongst his followers, who
as I said tend to view Saddam in much the same
way as they view the US.

This whole business of conflating Iraq and Al-Queda
is just a sales pitch for the rubes, getting rid
of a powerful enemy of the US and controlling 10%
of the worlds oil supply may be in our national interest
but don't kid yourself, it's only going to exacerbate
the terrorism problem. 

As a citizen of NYC, I can tell you that my life is
personally at risk due to these actions, and no one
here feels safer by what's happening now. We all supported
the war in Afganistan, because it seemed clear that
destroying Al-Quedas base of operations would tend
to diminish their threat. The fact that many of his
soldiers escaped was a tremendous failure on our part,
US troops should have been put on the ground and
no Al-Queda fighter should have been allowed to escape
alive. That's threat reduction. 

If the US is concerned about Al-Queda being hooked
up with WMD's, perhaps we should be invading Pakistan?
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed wasn't found in Iraq, and
neither will Bin Ladin. The ISI was *deeply* involved
with the Taliban. Musharraf is a military dictator,
tortures and oppresses his people, and is known to have
traded WMD technologies with our enemies. But hey,
he's our ally, and we can't hurt our friends right???

>I say it is time to make them show how willing *their*
>people are to risk and sacrifice *everything* for *their*
>cause, to loosly paraphrase Patton.

Jeeze, I'd think that would be pretty clear by now.
They're *infinitely* willing to risk and sacrifice
everything, in the case of Al-Queda. They have *nothing*
to lose.

But I know what you mean, perhaps you should quote Patton
directly. 

>And on that point, all we need is one armed goon to
>realize that for the same risk (snip)

I presume you're talking about Iraq here. Fat chance
of that happening. Lot's of Iraqis have tried this
already, and they're all dead. 

K.

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Correction:  I had stated that:=20

"This is one reason why I believe that the Wolf results could be in =
error on that particular isotope, but not on transmutation in general, =
and not on silver isotopes in particular, especially Ag-110. If memory =
serves, others besides Wolf have found 110 silver in CF cathodes."

After some further research, it apppears that Ag-110 is equally unlikely =
to be found in an old cathode, like the Wolf's 40+ day old cathodes, =
even more so than is Ag-106, *without some ongoing source of =
replenishment,* and there are no published parent nuclides for these =
two.

The correct transmutation isotope that should show up in an old, =
formerly active Pd cathode is Cd-110, that is, if Pd-110 is the active =
material. Cd-110 is stable so it cannot be detected on the basis of its =
own decay x-ray emission, so obviously it wasn't highlighted in the =
Wolf/Passell presentation.

But the bottom line is this. Both Ag-110 and Ag 106 were apparently =
found, based on suspect data that probably relied too much on =
unrealisticaly tiny branching ratios, but IF these results from Wolf =
could be believed, then  there must be an ongoing source of =
replensihment for these silver isotopes, and that source is absent from =
the published data available.

The most logical source of replenishment, if not a radioactive parent =
nuclide, and again, there seem to be none in the published data, would =
have to be a reactive but neutral long-lived species that is entrained =
in the Pd matrix which can react with the Pd nucleus without external =
energy input months later. A long-lived thermal neutron fits the ticket, =
but there is no such species (normal half-life of about 10.3 minutes) =
and Wolf's cell results showed only a few hundred neutrons per hour =
anyway, compared to billions of transmutation isotope atoms.

Is there anything in the literature that resembles a neutron, but =
doesn't decay rapidly and can be produced and retained in a Pd matrix by =
the billions and remain there for months with a slow reaction rate?

Yes, there is one candidate.

Jones


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Correction:&nbsp; I had stated that: </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"This is one reason why I believe that the Wolf results could be in =
error=20
on that particular isotope,&nbsp;but not on transmutation in general, =
and not on=20
silver isotopes in particular, especially&nbsp;Ag-110. If memory serves, =
others=20
besides Wolf&nbsp;have found 110 silver in CF cathodes."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>After some further research, it apppears that Ag-110 is=20
equally&nbsp;unlikely to be found in an old cathode, like the Wolf's 40+ =
day old=20
cathodes, even more so&nbsp;than is Ag-106, *without some ongoing source =
of=20
replenishment,* and there are no published parent nuclides for these =
two.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The correct transmutation isotope that should show up in an old, =
formerly=20
active Pd cathode is Cd-110, that is, if Pd-110 is the active material. =
Cd-110=20
is stable so it cannot be detected on the basis of its own decay x-ray =
emission,=20
so obviously it wasn't highlighted in the Wolf/Passell =
presentation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But the bottom line is this. Both Ag-110 and Ag 106 were apparently =
found,=20
based on suspect data that probably relied too much on unrealisticaly=20
tiny&nbsp;branching ratios, but&nbsp;IF these results from Wolf could be =

believed, then&nbsp; there must be an ongoing source of replensihment =
for these=20
silver isotopes, and&nbsp;that source is absent from the published data=20
available.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The most logical source of replenishment,&nbsp;if not a radioactive =
parent=20
nuclide,&nbsp;and again, there seem to be none in the published data, =
would have=20
to be a reactive but neutral long-lived species that is entrained in the =
Pd=20
matrix which can react with the Pd nucleus without external energy input =
months=20
later. A long-lived thermal neutron fits the ticket, but there is no =
such=20
species (normal half-life of about 10.3 minutes) and Wolf's cell results =
showed=20
only a few hundred neutrons per hour anyway, compared to billions of=20
transmutation isotope atoms.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is there anything in the literature that resembles a neutron, but =
doesn't=20
decay rapidly and can be produced and retained in a Pd matrix by the =
billions=20
and remain there for months with a slow reaction rate?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yes, there is one candidate.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 09:09:21 2003
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?
In-Reply-To: <v0421010aba95fb032505 [192.168.123.4]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030312165133.02e3d010 pop.mindspring.com>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>The logic of the notion that we increase our risk by defeating our enemies 
>escapes me.

It shouldn't. As Keith Nagel points out, these things can be complicated. 
The future is utterly unforeseeable, especially after violent conflicts. 
Strange reversals and Pyrrhic victories are common. Sometimes the weak turn 
out to be strong, and what looks like a victory turns out to be defeat. Few 
imagined the British would lose the American Revolution, or the U.S. would 
be lose in Vietnam. The Japanese thought they won a great victory and 
defeated their enemies at Nanjing and Pearl Harbor. By the standards of 
19th century warfare or the Russo-Japanese war, they did.


>I think you came pretty close to answering your own question, but you are 
>wrong about "upcoming"  - should be "ongoing".

The Cold War lasted 50 years. The U.S. won mainly by not fighting, and when 
it did fight in Vietnam, it lost. In the 1950s some extremists said that 
nuclear war is inevitable, and the U.S. should attack Russian preemptively, 
before it grew too strong. During the Cuban missile crisis, some of the 
generals said we have no choice, we must attack Cuba. They did not realize 
the Soviet troops in Cuba had tactical nuclear weapons and the authority to 
use them. A nuclear war would have been an unthinkable disaster, and we now 
know it was unnecessary. Anyone who thinks that Saddam Hussein is a greater 
threat than Stalin lacks perspective, and knows little of history.

Doing nothing is often wise policy.


Anyway, on a somewhat lighter note, here is a description of Iraq's latest 
terror weapon, which sounds about as formidable as the Junkyard Wars 
"Flight of the Century" Bleriot Type XI airplane:

"Resting on trestles on a sidewalk, the drone seemed like a sad, 
patched-together affair. Its two tiny engines, each about the size of a 
whiskey bottle, and attached to minuscule wooden propellers, looked about 
powerful enough to drive a Weed Whacker, as one wag present suggested. Like 
a primitive biplane from the earliest days of flight, its wings and twinned 
tail fins were made of wood and stretched fabric. Swathes of plastic 
masking tape covered the wing joints.

Metal fastening plates had been crudely drilled for screws that appeared to 
have been forgotten, and electrical actuators for the ailerons and other 
flight surfaces were secured to the outside of the craft, unprotected 
against weather."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/13/international/middleeast/13DRON.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 09:23:08 2003
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: RE: Logical fallacy regarding Scott Ritter
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:17:47 +0700
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I'll post it on a site, if you forward it...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 2003 March 13 22:54
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Logical fallacy regarding Scott Ritter
>
>
> thomas malloy wrote:
>
> >  American Government refused to back him up in his efforts to destroy
> > their banned weapons. The next thing I heard from him was
> saying that we
> > should stay out of Iraq. So which Scott Ritter should be believe?
>
> The one best supported by the facts and most logical.
>
>
> >  Then I heard about the Child molestation charges. Now people
> who engage
> > in that sort of thing are subject to blackmail. I don't know, it makes
> > perfect sense to me.
>
> If there is evidence for that, then an ad hominem argument may be valid.
> However, I covered this eventuality in my first statement: ". . . if the
> facts he musters in support of his argument are generally agreed to be
> correct by both sides." If the facts are questionable, and he has
> reputation as a liar, or there is evidence he is being
> blackmailed, then ad
> hominem  doubts are appropriate. Weapons inspections are extremely
> complicated and many facts about them must remain unknown or
> classified, so
> arguments can seldom be based strictly on logic applied to a limited,
> closed set of clear-cut facts. Personal credibility may well enter the
> picture, opening the door to an ad hominem attack.
>
> However, if this is open hand of cards (as it were), and everyone agrees
> about the facts, then the only errors Ritter can make would be in logic.
> That would rule out ad hominem arguments. This is a purely hypothetical
> example (which I am making up as I go alone), but suppose experts in
> nuclear weapons all agree that a separation plant can be no smaller than
> 100 meters across; you cannot build one underground; and the
> plants emit a
> certain amount of heat roughly proportional to the amount of Pu that is
> separated. Suppose a plant that emits only 1 KW would take hundreds of
> years to produce a critical mass of Pu. Suppose, further, that
> our aircraft
> can detect heat emissions and facilities of a certain size or above. In
> that case, we can logically rule out the possibility that Iraq is
> secretly
> preparing Pu.
>
> Logic is transparent. A logical argument is evaluated on its own merits,
> regardless of who makes it. Even if the speaker has as ulterior
> motive, he
> cannot distort logic. That is like trying to change the laws of
> mathematics. To make an analogy, suppose Ritter is an accountant and we
> suspect he may be defrauding the company. We might suspect the numbers in
> his ledger are wrong; he is lying. But we cannot suspect that he has
> distorted the laws of arithmetic and fooled us into thinking 2 +
> 2 = 5, in
> a sleight of hand trick. To put it another way, you can cheat at poker,
> where the cards are hidden, but no one can cheat at chess.
>
> In an analogy to experiments, we might suspect that Mizuno is lying when
> said his heat after death cell was palpably hot and it evaporated 37.5
> liters. But once we accept these statements as fact, we cannot argue that
> Mizuno has somehow fooled us when he claims this proves the cell produced
> energy beyond the limits of chemistry. The conclusion follows,
> independent
> of Mizuno himself. (That is a rather trivial example, yet some s.p.f.
> skeptics actually do make this mistake. They say "we can't trust Mizuno's
> evaluation," as if they were incapable evaluating it themselves.)
>
> Ritter might be making any number of logical errors, such as selectively
> ignoring data or trying to prove a negative, but such mistakes should be
> clear to anyone sufficiently knowledgeable about weapons. The
> merits of an
> argument can be determined regardless of motives. To take an
> extreme case,
> an argument proposed by Saddam Hussein himself might be perfectly
> correct,
> and even though we know he is strongly biased in his own favor,
> we can have
> confidence in our ability to judge his arguments.
>
>
> >And people working on Cold Fusion should print out the last
> essay written
> >by Wilbur Wright a few weeks before he died at age 45. They
> should tape it
> >to the wall, and read it every day. The theme is Tempus
> >
> >Are you going to post this on the LENR site? or are you saying that we
> >should all go to that site and read it?
>
> I am not sure what to do with it. It does not fit the site well. We are
> thinking of opening a "Editorial" section. I might put it there. It is
> awkward starting this section, because people will not submit material
> until we ask for it, and we do not want to ask for it on the web site
> because we fear no one will respond, which will make up look silly.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 09:29:51 2003
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Subject: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
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See:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf

Note the photographs at the end!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 09:31:38 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <140.ccf70e1.2ba2197f aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:27:27 EST
Subject: Metal Alloy that breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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http://www.free-energy.cc/background.html

"Even more amazing is the fact that a special metal alloy was patented by 
Freedman (USA) in 1957 that spontaneously breaks water into Hydrogen and 
Oxygen with no outside electrical input and without causing any chemical 
changes in the metal itself. This means that this special metal alloy can 
make Hydrogen from water for free, forever."

    
I have not been able to find this patent number.  Does anyone know the patent 
number?


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

--part1_140.ccf70e1.2ba2197f_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">http://www.free-energy.cc/background.html<BR>
<BR>
"Even more amazing is the fact that a special metal alloy was patented by Fr=
eedman (USA) in 1957 that spontaneously breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxyge=
n with no outside electrical input and without causing any chemical changes=20=
in the metal itself. This means that this special metal alloy can make Hydro=
gen from water for free, forever."<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">    <BR>
I have not been able to find this patent number.&nbsp; Does anyone know the=20=
patent number?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_140.ccf70e1.2ba2197f_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 10:08:48 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Iraqi Drone
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:23:41 -0500
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Hi.

Jed writes:
>Anyway, on a somewhat lighter note, here is a description of Iraq's latest
>terror weapon, which sounds about as formidable as the Junkyard Wars
>"Flight of the Century" Bleriot Type XI airplane:

I saw some pictures of the drone on the BBC. I don't know why everyone
is dumping on this, it looks pretty much like what you'd expect
an industrial prototype to look like. Duct tape, lot's of holes
where things were attached and later moved/removed. The
construction is pretty typical of large model planes, wood
and fabric. I guess the point is that it's a prototype,
not a production model, which is what people expect to see.

I'd say from looking at the pics, that it'd make a good spy
plane and jamming platform but probably couldn't carry
enough VX or Sarin to be of much use. I can see why the
inspectors weren't too excited over it. You'd think Hussein
would be trying to modify crop dusters....

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 10:21:42 2003
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: RE: Metal Alloy that breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:17:22 +0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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2,796,345 of June 18, 1957
  -----Original Message-----
  From: ConexTom aol.com [mailto:ConexTom@aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, 2003 March 14 00:27
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  Cc: ConexTom aol.com; tom@rhfweb.com
  Subject: Metal Alloy that breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen


  http://www.free-energy.cc/background.html

  "Even more amazing is the fact that a special metal alloy was patented by
Freedman (USA) in 1957 that spontaneously breaks water into Hydrogen and
Oxygen with no outside electrical input and without causing any chemical
changes in the metal itself. This means that this special metal alloy can
make Hydrogen from water for free, forever."


  I have not been able to find this patent number.  Does anyone know the
patent number?


  Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom rhfweb.com
  President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
  New Age Production Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<BODY>
<DIV>2,796,345 of June 18, 1957</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> ConexTom aol.com=20
  [mailto:ConexTom aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 2003 March 14=20
  00:27<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
ConexTom aol.com;=20
  tom rhfweb.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Metal Alloy that breaks water into =
Hydrogen=20
  and Oxygen<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
lang=3D0=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2=20
  =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">http://www.free-energy.cc/background.html<BR><BR>"Ev=
en more=20
  amazing is the fact that a special metal alloy was patented by =
Freedman (USA)=20
  in 1957 that spontaneously breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen with =
no=20
  outside electrical input and without causing any chemical changes in =
the metal=20
  itself. This means that this special metal alloy can make Hydrogen =
from water=20
  for free, forever."<BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>I have not been able to find this patent =
number.&nbsp;=20
  Does anyone know the patent number?<BR><BR><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A=20
  href=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email:=20
  tom rhfweb.com<BR>President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, <A=20
  href=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New =
Age=20
  Production Inc., <A=20
href=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2E9C7.76F003C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 10:42:27 2003
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Hello X and Baron.

I just looked at the patent. I've experimented
extensively with this sort of alloy for catalytic
purposes, albeit using nickle instead of lead. Either
way, the action is hardly surprising, and
will last as long as you have sufficient zinc
in the alloy to permit the corrosion to occur.

What's left after the corrosion is far more
interesting and potentially useful than the H2
you get from corroding it, IMHO.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: xplorer [mailto:xplorer indo.net.id]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 1:17 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Metal Alloy that breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen


2,796,345 of June 18, 1957
-----Original Message-----
From: ConexTom aol.com [mailto:ConexTom@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, 2003 March 14 00:27
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: ConexTom aol.com; tom@rhfweb.com
Subject: Metal Alloy that breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen


http://www.free-energy.cc/background.html

"Even more amazing is the fact that a special metal alloy was patented by
Freedman (USA) in 1957 that spontaneously breaks water into Hydrogen and
Oxygen with no outside electrical input and without causing any chemical
changes in the metal itself. This means that this special metal alloy can
make Hydrogen from water for free, forever."


I have not been able to find this patent number.  Does anyone know the
patent number?


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage

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Keith Nagel wrote:

>I'd say from looking at the pics, that it'd make a good spy plane and 
>jamming platform but probably couldn't carry enough VX or Sarin to be of 
>much use.

The general in charge of the project says, "the vehicle could not be 
controlled from a distance of more than five miles, in good weather, since 
its controllers tracked it 'with the naked eye.'" In other words, it is a 
large RC model airplane. Not a good choice for spreading VX or Sarin, 
unless you are trying to kill everyone on your own side. I doubt the 
general is lying, because any knowledgeable person could glance at the 
insides and see whether it has autonomous computer controls, a television 
camera, or whatever else is needed for distant remote operation.

If this is the kind of threat U.S. intelligence has turned up, war is not 
warranted.

- Jed


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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:34:47 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: The Same g(G)_d?
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>thomas malloy wrote:


And Terry Blanton replied;

>
>>
>>You got it! The Islamists believe that they are worshiping the G-d 
>>of Abraham, despite all evidence to the contrary. In addition to 
>>having a different name, he also instituted a different legal 
>>system, Sharia as opposed to Torah.
>
>
>Then, this source of Sharia, h(H)e is presumed to exist?  Is he a 
>lesser g(G)_d?

I hesitate to criticize another man's religion, but the Bible is 
clear that there are only two sides in this matter, HaShem's way and 
everything else. The fallen archangel Lucifer also known as the 
Adversary and the Accuser of the Brethren is locked in a battle with 
HaShem, which he will loose. While he has helpers, he is most likely 
the author. He noted for his writing ability, which he uses to 
deceive people. He is noted for his penchant for autocratic regimes 
and his hatred of the Jews in particular. Mohammed's later writings 
have an end time scenario in which his followers hunt down the Jews 
with the help of the rocks and trees whom it is prophecized will cry 
out, "servant of Alliah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

>
>>
>>The battle between the Children of Israel and the Children of Edom
>
>
>Are the Children of Edom the progeny of Ishmael, the son of the 
>handmaiden, Hagar, as in:

No, Esau is the Father of Edom. However his third wife, Basemath was 
Ishmael's youngest daughter.

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Keith -

> This is hardly tin foil hat stuff <snip>

Hey, HEY! ... no need to put on the tone about my hasberdashery, it's hard enough to keep the things pulled down evenly around the ears so I don't *look* quite so crazy!

> This whole business of conflating Iraq and Al-Queda
> is just a sales pitch for the rubes <snip>

The logic of the guv pitching that one, even to "rubes" (who aren't all that dumb when it comes to identifying BS anyway), escapes me as well. Maybe it's really aimed at all our good Urban Folk?<g> Either way, it's all pretty obvious to anyone who's been paying any attention at all for the last 20 years or so.

By the way, in case anyone missed the point, my post was mostly about a viable deterrence. I'd much rather just make 'em sweat than have to actually burn up thier babies and put our own at further risk. The downside is that deterrence sometimes gets called, like in Cuba in '62, and perhaps again in '03 if "disarm (WMD) or else" doesn't work. Then Jed's right again; it's tough to be a primate some days. 

- RM

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thomas malloy wrote:

>
> No, Esau is the Father of Edom. 


<slaps forehead>

I actually *knew* this.  Thanks for taking the time, Thomas.

Terry

>
>



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I've been thinking about that post that Frank Zinadric made about 
conducting protons down a wire. Does this mean that if I produced a 
plasma of deuterium that with the appropriate charge they would flow 
through the metallic lattice just like electricity, only slower?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 13:24:03 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:19:43 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 12 Mar 2003 17:27:04 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>THEN, the likely "active" material for cold fusion reactions can be pinpointed specifically as 110 Palladium, a stable isotope that is 11.7 % of natural and is unique in many respects, not the least of which is its large mass increase over the next lower-Z stable element in the periodic table, which is 102 Rhodium. Although Pd-110 is stable in normal circumstances, let us suppose that the occasional presence of a deuteron or deuterino, accelerated into the k-shell, is then able to disrupt the coulomb charge balance and stimulate the overloaded Pd-110 nucleus to beta decay to Ag-110 - which is exactly an isotope that Wolf found. This k-shell interaction would logically have a zillion-fold higher probability than actual tunneling into the nucleus or even D+D fusion, based on geometric distances. And we can be pretty sure that Wolf did find Ag-110.
[snip]
The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV more stable than Ag110, which implies that one would need to add nearly a MeV of energy to bring about the reaction (which is also why Ag110 sometimes undergoes
e.c. decaying into Pd110).

OTOH Ag110 can be formed directly by

Pd108 + deuterino -> Ag110.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 14:06:12 2003
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Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm

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The best I have seen so far:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030313.html

- Jed


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> See page 7 of: 
> http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf

"When we consider only hydrogen produced during periods when plasma formed, Faraday's law predicts 905 cc, and the measured amount was 3240 cc (2335 cc excess; 2.6 times the predicted"

This is almost too good to be true...

The obvious next step (to silence the skeptic's inevitable claim of measurement error) is to "close the loop", i.e. port the H2 and O2 to a fuel cell (Ballard and others will probably guarantee greater than 50% efficiency)  Then self-power the plasma unit from the fuel cell...There should easily be enough extra hydrogen to cover the transformer and other electrical losses...

No doubt closing the loop is contemplated? Perhaps JR is already looking for a low fare over to Mizuno's lab for the party...For maximum effect, be sure to alert Bob Park and Taubes to this document ahead of time, so that those Luddites will have plenty of time to write it up as a bad science...

Jones


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Robin,

> The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV more stable than Ag110. 

Yes in the ground state, but how stable is a high-spin deformed nucleus when it is stressed by sudden "charge alteration" in its inner electron orbital?

> which implies that one would need to add nearly a MeV of energy to bring about the reaction
 
Or perhaps one could "borrow" most of it from the Coulomb S&L?

If the Pd -110 nucleus is deformed enough to show octupole instability in the nuclear ground state, would anything in this article change your mind (admittedly, it calls for a leap of faith)?
http://www.gsi.de/~msep/PIC/Ag94.pdf

> Ag110 can be formed directly by Pd108 + deuterino -> Ag110.

Yes. That would be lovely and highly preferred. But a major problem is that Palladium has only the single "energy hole" to get deuterinos down to n=2 and at that stage they aren't very "neutral" and shouldn't get very far through the outer Pd orbitals.

I believe Horace at one time suggested a mechanism that would use the Pd atom's own Coulomb forces to propel a proton in past the k-shell. This mechanism might even be more robust if it could "slingshot" an ionized deuterino in, using its EUV photon as a booster. From there on, one would have to ask, would the charge alteration be enough to stimulate beta decay in an already deformed nucleus?

I was groping for an alternative mechanism that would allow for the appearance Ag110, which Wolf and others have found, something like a stimulated beta decay of the Pd.  IOW a mechanism w/o depending on something that could turn out to be a fiction, like "auto-catalyzation" to get the deuterino down well below n=2. 

But one thing is very likely - there are going to be a number of different mechanisms at work in cold fusion...and probably a few of them will turn out to be even "wilder" i.e. farther from the mainstream paradigm, than anything we have concocted so far...

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 17:42:03 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Iraqi Drone
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At 1:23 PM 3/13/3, Keith Nagel wrote:

>I saw some pictures of the drone on the BBC.

The drone rolled out recently by the Iraqi's with the small cross section
fuselage is does not match the pictures earlier presented by the media.  It
looked like an overgrown kids remote control plane.  The drones of concern
to the US are a couple of types of pilotless jet aircraft modified for
delivery of chem/bilogical agents and a much more professional looking ICE
prop model with a large cross section fuselage. At least those were the
pictures and descriptions produced on TV prior tp the rollout of the
"experimental" drone.  Sorry, I don't recall the channel that produced the
earlier photos.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 17:45:34 2003
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:02:38 -0500
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Hey Jones,

>When we consider only hydrogen produced during
>eriods when plasma formed, Faraday's law predicts 905 cc,
>nd the measured amount was 3240 cc (2335 cc excess;
>.6 times the predicted"
>This is almost too good to be true...

Looks like a new reaction is occurring with a Vo of ~75V.

>The obvious next step (to silence the skeptic's
> inevitable claim of measurement error) is to
> "close the loop", i.e. port the H2 and O2 to a fuel cell

That might be hard. Consider the ratio of powers involved.
Currents in the neighborhood of 3 amps, at say 100V
is 300W, 3amp   1.2V for a fuel cell only 3.6W.
Even at 10X faradic efficiency, only ~30% efficient???

K.


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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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K,

> That might be hard. Consider the ratio of powers involved.
> Currents in the neighborhood of 3 amps, at say 100V
> is 300W, 3amp   1.2V for a fuel cell only 3.6W.
> Even at 10X faradic efficiency, only ~30% efficient???

Small fuel cells are no less efficient than large ones, no? Why not place 10-20 small ones in series ?

Excuse my answering with questions, but this is pretty bizarre (and exciting, considering Mizuno's credentials).

Doesn't it look like voltage up near 250 is best? Actually the graph seems to stop prematurely - why didn't he go higher? BTW this is near what Mills often uses.

Doesn't it look like an implication of this is that CF/hydrinos are involved somehow in the surprising efficiency? That would account for the delay in high H2 output (one needs to build up a critical mass of hydrinos?) If so, why isn't it mentioned? What were the electrodes made out of?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 18:26:51 2003
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Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Iraqi Drone
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:43:22 -0500
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Hi Horace,

>The drones of concern
>to the US are a couple of types of pilotless jet aircraft modified for
>delivery of chem/bilogical agents

What I also saw was black and white gun camera footage of what
looked like a Mig type fighter spraying something, presumably 
a simulant. The news report stated that the footage
was smuggled out by an Iraqi defector. 

As we enforce a no fly zone over 2/3 of the country, I'm
not sure what the thinking was in developing such a
weapon. Perhaps they felt they had a "drone gap" and
needed to keep up? 

> and a much more professional looking ICE
> prop model with a large cross section fuselage.

Sounds more interesting, but again the whole airforce
can already be grounded at will. 

K,.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 18:41:12 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:57:29 -0500
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Jones,

>Small fuel cells are no less efficient than large
> ones, no? Why not place 10-20 small ones in series ?

Then you'd need 10-20X more H2 flow, right?
(let's see where this chain of questions leads...)

>Excuse my answering with questions, but this is
> pretty bizarre (and exciting, considering Mizuno's credentials).

The electrolytic reaction starts at ~1.2V, the glow reaction
starts at ~75V (according to this paper). I suspect that
the reaction will overall become less efficient when going
to a higher voltage, just like the overvoltage loss when you
do the electrolytic reaction.

>Doesn't it look like voltage up near 250 is best?

More like about 125-150, based on fig 4A and 4B.

> BTW this is near what Mills often uses.

Curious.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 19:07:50 2003
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:05:17 EST
Subject: Re: proton conduction
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In a message dated 3/13/03 4:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

<< I've been thinking about that post that Frank Znidarsic made about 
 conducting protons down a wire. Does this mean that if I produced a 
 plasma of deuterium that with the appropriate charge they would flow 
 through the metallic lattice just like electricity, only slower?
  >>
I like this question.  I need to know this.  How does the flowing
deuteron flow through a proton conductor?  Where is it in the band structure?
It is in the conduction band?  How can it be?  Its positive!

Chubb says it occupies sites in the lattice.  If it flows how can it occupy or
be bound to any site.  This is where I am stuck.

Frank Z

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	What are you guys and gals going to conduct these protons WITH
or THROUGH??? .....besides a gas or vacuum environment???
	A nice piece of negamatter copper or reppoc ??? Hmmm?


On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/13/03 4:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
> 
> << I've been thinking about that post that Frank Znidarsic made about 
>  conducting protons down a wire. Does this mean that if I produced a 
>  plasma of deuterium that with the appropriate charge they would flow 
>  through the metallic lattice just like electricity, only slower?
>   >>
> I like this question.  I need to know this.  How does the flowing
> deuteron flow through a proton conductor?  Where is it in the band structure?
> It is in the conduction band?  How can it be?  Its positive!
> 
> Chubb says it occupies sites in the lattice.  If it flows how can it occupy or
> be bound to any site.  This is where I am stuck.
> 
> Frank Z
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 20:20:26 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Iraqi Drone
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At 9:43 PM 3/13/3, Keith Nagel wrote:

>
>Sounds more interesting, but again the whole airforce
>can already be grounded at will.

Quantity has a quality of its own.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
 

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:33:36 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <3ft27vgmgtbobfdnpgks2dd0l03jashnov 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:27:11 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>See:
>
>http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf
>
>Note the photographs at the end!
>
>- Jed
>
When the voltage drop over the arc itself exceeds 35.117 V, some O++ will be formed in the plasma. (Probably more at higher voltage drops).
O++ is a good Mills catalyst at high temperatures (several thousand K), such as may be approached in such an arc.
Hydrino production would result in energetic particles capable both of splitting water, and also creating more O++.
And of course, there is also the Potassium present, which works best at 7-800K.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 22:54:31 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:52:12 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <t3u27vk2tk7kth814i0koheanokjc4j2am 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:57:29 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>The electrolytic reaction starts at ~1.2V, the glow reaction
>starts at ~75V (according to this paper). I suspect that
>the reaction will overall become less efficient when going
>to a higher voltage, just like the overvoltage loss when you
>do the electrolytic reaction.

Mills predicts a maximum binding energy of about 70 V for the second electron
to a hydrino, so anything above that would result in particles energetic enough to convert hydrino-hydride back into hydrinos making them available for even further shrinkage. Because the binding energy drops off again after about level 16, to nothing at 25, once passed the "hump", they are on a downward slide to minimal size, where fusion reactions should occur quite readily, and of course any fusion reaction would leverage the energy production about a 1000 fold over hydrino production.

This might account for the 75V.

>
>>Doesn't it look like voltage up near 250 is best?
>
>More like about 125-150, based on fig 4A and 4B.
>
>> BTW this is near what Mills often uses.
>
>Curious.
>
>K.

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 13 23:20:38 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:19:57 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
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>Robin,
>
>  > The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV 
>more stable than Ag110.

What does the .89 Me V more stable mean?

>
Yes. That would be lovely and highly preferred. But a major problem 
is that Palladium has only the single "energy hole" to get deuterinos 
down to n=2 and at

I like the idea of vibrating the metal at it's resonant frequency

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 04:51:13 2003
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Michael Randall wrote:

> Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>
>  
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>
>  
>

Now this is bizarre!  Either someone out there has limited grammatical 
abilities like me or Bill's remailer is hosed.




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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Subject: Re: Metal Alloy that breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen
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In a message dated 3/13/2003 1:42:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:

> I just looked at the patent. I've experimented
> extensively with this sort of alloy for catalytic
> purposes, albeit using nickle instead of lead. Either
> way, the action is hardly surprising, and
> will last as long as you have sufficient zinc
> in the alloy to permit the corrosion to occur.
> 
> What's left after the corrosion is far more
> interesting and potentially useful than the H2
> you get from corroding it, IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> 2,796,345 of June 18, 1957
> 
> 

Thank you for the information, I am grateful. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/13/2003 1:42:44 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, knagel gis.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I just looked at the patent. I'=
ve experimented<BR>
extensively with this sort of alloy for catalytic<BR>
purposes, albeit using nickle instead of lead. Either<BR>
way, the action is hardly surprising, and<BR>
will last as long as you have sufficient zinc<BR>
in the alloy to permit the corrosion to occur.<BR>
<BR>
What's left after the corrosion is far more<BR>
interesting and potentially useful than the H2<BR>
you get from corroding it, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
2,796,345 of June 18, 1957<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Thank you for the information, I am grateful. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 07:46:14 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:44:31 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
In-Reply-To: <002901c2e9b7$63581880$0a016ea8 cpq>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>"When we consider only hydrogen produced during periods when plasma 
>formed, Faraday's law predicts 905 cc, and the measured amount was 3240 cc 
>(2335 cc excess; 2.6 times the predicted"
>
>This is almost too good to be true...

It should be understood that this is no mystery. The "excess" hydrogen is 
caused by pyrolysis. It is significant because it means the method of 
calorimetry they have used up until now has drastically underestimated the 
heat. Much of the heat was carried off as free hydrogen and oxygen.


>The obvious next step (to silence the skeptic's inevitable claim of 
>measurement error) is to "close the loop", i.e. port the H2 and O2 to a 
>fuel cell . . .

No can do. The hydrogen is mixed in with oxygen. Pyrolysis occurs in the 
plasma surrounding the cathode. In other words, both oxygen and hydrogen 
emerge from the same spot. (It took me several days and three messages from 
Mizuno before I realized this.) A fuel cell must have a stream of hydrogen 
on one side, and oxygen on the other.

However, it will be easy in principle to confirm this is not a measurement 
error, and Mizuno is taking steps to do that. You can ignite the gas and 
measure the heat from it, and the resulting water. In practice the water is 
very hot vapor when it recombines, and it is difficult to contain. Most of 
the gas burns. There is extra hydrogen left over, from normal electrolysis. 
If you collect all gas coming from both the anode and cathode, it is a 
stoichiometric mixture and it all turns back into water. Normally, this is 
easy to do with a recombiner in a closed cell. However, this cell is very 
hot and difficult to close.

I am not sure why Mizuno made such an effort to separate the anode and 
cathode effluent gas, with the bell-shaped collector over the cathode. (See 
diagrams and photo.) This is normally done to keep oxygen out of the 
hydrogen gas stream, but in this case there will be oxygen from pyrolysis 
mixed in with the gas stream no matter what you do. Mizuno is trying to 
capture the anode effluent gas (all oxygen) to measure the gas flow rate.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 08:07:35 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:05:12 EST
Subject: Pulsed plasma drive electromagnetic motor generator 
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United States Patent    6,271,614   
Arnold  August 7, 2001  
Pulsed plasma drive electromagnetic motor generator
 
It works - look at the video again at 
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/hypercom59">http://members.aol.com/hypercom59</A>


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>United States Patent </B>   <B><I>6,271,614</B></I>=
   <BR>
<B>Arnold </B> <B>August 7, 2001 </B> <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Pulsed plasma drive electrom=
agnetic motor generator<BR>
 </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">It works - look at the video=
 again at <BR>
<A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/hypercom59">http://members.aol.com/hyperco=
m59</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_192.172fa94b.2ba357b8_boundary--

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Subject: Re: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
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> No can do. The hydrogen is mixed in with oxygen. Pyrolysis occurs in the 
> plasma surrounding the cathode. In other words, both oxygen and hydrogen 
> emerge from the same spot. 

Mizuno might be interested in this company, which appears to have just the technology for separating pyrolysis gases:
http://WWW.HIONSOLAR.COM/about.htm

The Walter Pyle, mentioned as CEO, was the inventor of a now expired patent for a high temp. H+O separator - after the  disassociation of H2O at high temperatures. The trick is to get the 2 gasses (adiabatically) cooled before they recombine. 

United States Patent  4,405,594  September 20, 1983 
Abstract
A system for the thermal dissociation of gaseous matter into its component parts using solar energy and a molecular beam skimmer. 

Inventors: 
Pyle; Walter R. (Richmond, CA) 
Assignee:  Chevron Research Center (San Francisco, CA) 

A method for thermally dissociating water vapor into hydrogen and oxygen, comprising:  introducing water vapor into a chamber at a first pressure between about 2 and 760 Torr;  heating said water vapor to thermally dissociate at least a portion thereof into hydrogen and oxygen with concentrated solar energy;  passing said hydrogen and oxygen and unconverted water vapor through an orifice at a second pressure between about 1 and 360 Torr, to produce a supersonic molecular jet of hydrogen, oxygen and unconverted water vapor, to produce a shock wave downstream of said orifice, to rapidly cool said hydrogen, oxygen and unconverted water vapor and to retard recombination of same; and separating said jet in said shock wave into a hydrogen-rich stream and an oxygen-rich stream with a beam skimmer. 

Might be worth the effort to inquire. If for no other reason than this:
...exactly what the whole field of free-energy research, in all its various forms, needs is one clear, unambiguous example of a self-powered invention...Just one such example could encourage the many others who are close to success and constantly harangued by skeptics and Luddites...

This company is nearby to where I live, but I have no direct knowledge that they have anything other than *vaporware,* so to speak, but if Mizuno shows any real interest, I would be happy to make a personal visit to see what is available...

Jones


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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:54:58 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Latest Mizuno glow discharge paper
In-Reply-To: <003f01c2ea47$7877f420$0a016ea8 cpq>
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Jones Beene wrote:


>A method for thermally dissociating water vapor into hydrogen and oxygen, 
>comprising:  introducing water vapor into a chamber at a first pressure 
>between about 2 and 760 Torr;  heating said water vapor . . .

>This company is nearby to where I live, but I have no direct knowledge 
>that they have anything other than *vaporware,* so to speak . . .

That's all they have! (Har, har!)


Most of the apparent excess energy from this device is in the form of heat, 
so a heat engine would probably be a more practical, near term method of 
making it self sustain, if that can be done at all.

- Jed


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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 07:45:59 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars
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Terry -

I don't get it. Grammatical abilities? Remailer hosed? Does that have something to do with the link? Worked ok for me. Something's oozing out and staining the surface of Mars. I don't know if it's water or what, but the picture sequence clearly shows it.

- Rick

>Michael Randall wrote:
>
>>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>>
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>>
>
>Now this is bizarre!  Either someone out there has limited grammatical abilities like me or Bill's remailer is hosed.

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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:50:16 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Record week at LENR-CANR.org
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The weekly total number of downloads and visitors at LENR-CANR.org is the 
highest yet:

Date, downloads
3/9, 832	
3/10, 511	
3/11, 662	
3/12, 1623	
3/13, 1065	
3/14, 1071

Totals through Friday: 5764

Last week was the previous record high, at 3902.

The highest day on record was January 4, 2003, at 1650.

Many of the downloads this week were Passell (1875), but it would probably 
be a record week without that. Perhaps the Passell paper brought in readers.

Through 11:30 today 238 copies of Mizuno's latest paper were downloaded.

I fear that just when we make a breakthrough into the consciousness of the 
public at large, war will break out and push aside this and all other 
considerations for weeks or months. As I said, that is such a parochial, 
small minded concern I am embarrassed to admit it. On the other hand, in 
the longer view of history, if cold fusion survives it will be considered 
far more important than this war. A thousand years after Bush and Hussein 
have been forgotten, people will remember who and Pons and Fleischmann 
were, and what they did for the human race. As Francis Bacon said:

"The works of the founders of states, law-givers, tyrant-destroyers and 
heroes cover but narrow spaces and endure but for a limited time; while the 
work of the inventor, though of less pomp, is felt everywhere and lasts 
forever."

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 10:19:58 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:14:45 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Larger copies of Mizuno photos available
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The photos I appended to the Mizuno paper are reduced in size and 
definition by Acrobat, to save space. If anyone would like to see the 
originals please contact me by direct e-mail.  (Not through Vortex - so I 
can reply easily.) I have 5 photos of the cell and equipment, 1536 x 2048 
pixels each. One of them shows the trap at the top of the cell. Perhaps I 
should add this to the file.

Also, I have some neat close up electronic photos my daughter made recently 
of a little brown bat that was a guest at our house for a day, after we 
rescued it. I have sent them to several people without much response, oddly 
enough. Perhaps people are not fond of bats? I am crazy about them! My 
nephews' comments:

"Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhh, YUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKK. Let me see it again!"

(You should rescue a bat in distress. They live 20 years or more. My wife 
keeps expecting this one to leave the traditional Japanese fairy tale gift 
of gold and silver coins at our doorstep. I told her bats think insects are 
worth more than gold, and we already have plenty of insects.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 11:11:26 2003
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From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars
References: <002c01c2e9e9$82c6e5c0$6401a8c0 mtdlnwqhghj34b> <3E71D003.2040809@rtpatlanta.com> <v0421010dba97c51dc651@[192.168.123.4]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Terry -
>
>I don't get it. Grammatical abilities? Remailer hosed? Does that have something to do with the link? Worked ok for me. Something's oozing out and staining the surface of Mars. I don't know if it's water or what, but the picture sequence clearly shows it.
>
>- Rick
>
>  
>
>>Michael Randall wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>>>
>>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Now this is bizarre!  Either someone out there has limited grammatical abilities like me or Bill's remailer is hosed.
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>
Look at who allegedly send the same message as I.  WTF is Michael Randall?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 11:33:58 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:31:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars
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At 2:07 PM 3/14/3, Terry Blanton wrote:

>Look at who allegedly send the same message as I.  WTF is Michael Randall?


At 9:21 PM 3/13/3, Michael Randall wrote:
>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>
>
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>10.0pt'>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches
>it:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
>
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Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 14:26:29 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:23:50 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:19:57 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>>Robin,
>>
>>  > The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV 
>>more stable than Ag110.
>
>What does the .89 Me V more stable mean?

It means that the difference in mass between Ag110 and Pd110 (i.e. Ag110 - Pd110) is (0.89 MeV)/c^2. IOW, Ag110 is a little heavier than Pd110, so if you want to turn Pd110 into Ag110, then you have to add enough energy to create the extra mass. 


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 14:56:46 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:53:54 -0500
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>At 2:07 PM 3/14/3, Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Look at who allegedly send the same message as I.  WTF is Michael Randall?
>>    
>>
>
>
>At 9:21 PM 3/13/3, Michael Randall wrote:
>  
>
>>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>>
>>
>><html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
>>xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"
>>

<snip>

Geeze, Horace, where did all that hypertext come from?  My mailer is set 
to send only plain text.

Terry


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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, Mar 14
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:32:30 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT’S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 14 Mar 03   Washington, DC

1. ISS: RANSOM FOR CAPTIVE U.S. ASTRONAUTS PUT AT $50M EACH.  Currently,
two Americans and one Russian are on the International Space Station. 
With the three remaining U.S. shuttles grounded indefinitely, Russia
controls all transportation to and from the  station.  Russia says it
urgently needs $100M to build two more unmanned Progress supply
spacecraft
to ferry water, fuel and other supplies to the station.  The standard
tourist fare for a week on the ISS is $20M (WN 29 Jun 01), but perhaps
astronauts travel business class.  Russia grumbles that the loss of
Columbia led to cancellation of commercial and space-tourist flights
that
would have brought in $31M.  Plans are to reduce the ISS crew to two:
one
Russian and one American.  Neither the Russians nor the Americans want
to
risk leaving the ISS completely unmanned.

2. EPHEDRA: WILL MAJOR SUPPLIERS HIT A REGULATORY HOME RUN?  The results
of an autopsy on Orioles pitcher Steve Bechler, released yesterday,
confirmed that his death was linked to use of the herb ephedra, often
sold
as “legal speed.”  He was the latest of a number of athletes who have
fallen victim to the stimulant.  Why hasn’t it been banned?  The 1994
Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act (DSHEA) exempts suppliers of
“natural” supplements from any requirement to prove safety, efficacy or
purity.  The burden of proof falls on the FDA, which lacks the
resources. 
But the FDA is now responding to the public outcry over ephedra by
imposing new rules on the supplement industry, and ironically, the
supplement industry’s key allies on Capitol Hill are backing the new
rules.  According to the Hill paper, Roll Call, that includes Orrin
Hatch
(R-UT), whose home state is a center of the industry, and who was a key
force in passing DSHEA.  His son is a lobbyist for the supplement
industry.  So what are the rule changes?  The industry still won’t have
to
show that a supplement is safe, or that it actually works, but they will
have to show it contains what it says on the label.  The main effect,
according to Roll Call, will be to eliminate the small companies, giving
industry giants such as Metabolife a corner on the market.

3. TAIKONAUTS: CHINA AIMS TO EXPLOIT THE MOON’S VAST RESOURCES.
Resources?
 On the Moon?  Yes, according to today’s New York Times, they plan to
corner the market for helium-3.  Oh! You’ve heard that one before.  It
comes up every few years.  Rocks from the Moon’s surface, brought back
by
the Apollo missions and the Soviet Luna robot missions, contain high
concentrations of helium-3 as a result of cosmic ray bombardment. “High”
is a relative term.  Helium-3 would be great fuel for a fusion reactor,
but its in pretty short supply on Earth.  Every now and then someone
gets
excited about bringing it back from the Moon and solving the energy
problem.  Then they run the numbers. That’s your homework assignment for
next week.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:55:56 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars
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Terry -

>Look at who allegedly send the same message as I.  WTF is Michael Randall?

<shrug>

Anyway, that's pretty convincing. Two sources now: ice/snow melt, and geothermal melt as in the referenced images. Those are the good ones of course, where water is persistently flowing. The really hot ticket would be to spot a calcium carbonate based mineral buildout around a persistent spring. Very close to proof of bacterial activity. I read somewhere that's what's photo analysts are looking for.

- RM

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From: "Michael Randall" <vrand01 earthlink.net>
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Subject: RE: Water Flows on Mars
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:24:44 -0800
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It was an interesting website that I inadvertently send back to Vortex.
Sorry about that :-O

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 11:08 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars

Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Terry -
>
>I don't get it. Grammatical abilities? Remailer hosed? Does that have
something to do with the link? Worked ok for me. Something's oozing out
and staining the surface of Mars. I don't know if it's water or what,
but the picture sequence clearly shows it.

>
>- Rick
>
>  
>
>>Michael Randall wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>>>
>>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Now this is bizarre!  Either someone out there has limited grammatical
abilities like me or Bill's remailer is hosed.
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>
Look at who allegedly send the same message as I.  WTF is Michael
Randall?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 14 20:15:28 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:13:58 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars
Resent-Message-ID: <"W2PP62.0.mW5.gXgS-" mx1>
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At 5:53 PM 3/14/3, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>At 2:07 PM 3/14/3, Terry Blanton wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Look at who allegedly send the same message as I.  WTF is Michael Randall?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>At 9:21 PM 3/13/3, Michael Randall wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Photos taken within months of each other pretty much clinches it:
>>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2846897.stm
>>>
>>>
>>><html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
>>>xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"
>>>
>
><snip>
>
>Geeze, Horace, where did all that hypertext come from?  My mailer is set
>to send only plain text.
>
>Terry


When causing the original confusion it came from Michael Randall who I
qoute right after you above.  Note (above) where it says "At 9:21 PM
3/13/3, Michael Randall wrote:" all that follows is quoted from Michael
Randall's post of that date and time.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <12f.258b0bd0.2ba4a0fe aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:30:06 EST
Subject: Plasma to produce hydrogen from diesel fuel, gas, methane and other fuels
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http://www.plasmas.org/rot-environment.htm

"A plasma device being developed produces hydrogen-rich gas from diesel fuel, 
gasoline, methane and other hydrogen-rich fuels; provides cleaner burning 
fuels for conventional engines; works with fuel cells for higher efficiency 
and reduced pollution; and dramatically reduces environmentally toxic 
substances in the products of combustion."
    




Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR=3D"#800080" SIZE=3D4 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><I>http://www.plasmas.org/rot-envir=
onment.htm<BR>
<BR>
"A plasma device being developed produces hydrogen-rich gas from diesel fuel=
, gasoline, methane and other hydrogen-rich fuels; provides cleaner burning=20=
fuels for conventional engines; works with fuel cells for higher efficiency=20=
and reduced pollution; and dramatically reduces environmentally toxic substa=
nces in the products of combustion."</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=
=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial"=20=
LANG=3D"0"></I><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">    <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_12f.258b0bd0.2ba4a0fe_boundary--

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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <6c.2b56f39f.2ba4a26a aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:36:10 EST
Subject: Fusion Lasers & Fusion Energy http://www.plasmas.org/rot-defense.htm
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<A HREF="http://www-phys.llnl.gov/">Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory</A>          
    "                                           In inertial-confinement 
fusion, laser beams or ion beams energize the inside of a small cylindrical 
target. X rays then rapidly heat the capsule (1) causing its surface to blow 
off (2). The resulting force compresses the plasma fuel (hydrogen isotopes), 
raising temperatures to 100,000,000 degrees C and densities to 20 times 
greater than lead. This ignites the plasma fuel (3) and produces fusion 
energy output (4) many times the laser energy input (thus yielding large 
energy gain)."  




Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>





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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><P ALIGN=3DCENTER><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><IMG  SRC=3D"http://www.plasmas.org=
/F-ICFillustr.jpg" WIDTH=3D"420" HEIGHT=3D"113" BORDER=3D"0"><BR>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><I><A HREF=3D"http://www-phys.llnl.gov/">Lawrence Livermore=20=
National Laboratory</A></I></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><=
/I>          <BR>
    "                                           </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#8000=
80" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><I>In inertial-confinement fusion, laser beams or ion=20=
beams energize the inside of a small cylindrical target. X rays then rapidly=
 heat the capsule (1) causing its surface to blow off (2). The resulting for=
ce compresses the plasma fuel (hydrogen isotopes), raising temperatures to 1=
00,000,000 degrees C and densities to 20 times greater than lead. This ignit=
es the plasma fuel (3) and produces fusion energy output (4) many times the=20=
laser energy input (thus yielding large energy gain)."</FONT><FONT  COLOR=
=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D4 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERI=
F" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></I>  <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</P></P></FONT></HTML>
--part1_6c.2b56f39f.2ba4a26a_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 15 07:46:41 2003
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Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:47:02 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Water Flows on Mars
References: <v01530501ba985835c5ae [12.21.208.133]>
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>
>
>When causing the original confusion it came from Michael Randall who I
>qoute right after you above.  Note (above) where it says "At 9:21 PM
>3/13/3, Michael Randall wrote:" all that follows is quoted from Michael
>Randall's post of that date and time.
>

Thanks to you and Monteverde.  My brain has not been working properly 
lately.  I blame a "team building" program which I have been attending 
the past two days.

If you haven't attended one of these things, it's quite an experience. 
 They usually start off with a battery of psychological tests to 
identify personality types and end with team members signing a "team 
charter".  The whole thing is run by a psychologist and is intense, 
enlightening, but draining.

While I think these things have value, I hope I don't have to attend 
another anytime soon.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 15 09:33:37 2003
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <143.ca46672.2ba4bd66 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:31:18 EST
Subject: Vortex Shauberger Plasma Engine
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How was it that Schauberger separated "positive / negative air"?

"Our design, VERY preliminary at the moment, plans to
negatively charge the injected air -- and positively charge
the injected hydrogen -- so that they will rush together
and explode into flames?=A0 Electrodeless.=A0 I do not know
whether this is realistic.=A0 But it sounds realistic to
me, given sufficient velocity and density or voltage!"

Subj:   [Antigravity] Re: impressive X49=A0  =20
Date:   3/15/2003 12:15:56 PM Eastern Standard Time=20
From:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:unamity yahoo.co.uk">unamity@yahoo.co.uk</A>=20
Reply-to:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoo=
groups.com</A>=20
To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:ufophysics hotmail.com">ufophysics@hotmail.com</A> =20
CC: <A HREF=3D"mailto:plasmajet smartgroups.com">plasmajet@smartgroups.com</=
A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroups.c=
om</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:black-triangle yahoogroups.com">
black-triangle yahoogroups.com</A> =20
Sent from the Internet (Details)   =20
   =20


...

thanks Paul!

Welcome to the X49 World Team!!

Thanks for helping us get the word out, to
expand our team, refine our visions, and propel
our world into a future in harmony with nature!!!

It will great to talk about the X49 design details.
Not many ideas on the ElectroShell excitation voltage
frequencies yet -- am assuming that by bringing this
dialog into cyberspace that we will get a lot of ideas,
and testing going on soon.

[I think that lower frequencies are preferred, from
the point of view of the mass of apparatus to generate
them -- assuming we ALSO require high current flow.=A0 But
if little current is expended, then perhaps we can go
to higher frequencies.=A0 I remember we used about 20 khz
(ultrasound, not electricity) in some cold fusion
experiments I was involved in.]

[On the other hand.=A0 'Looking' would tell me we need to
identify the main molecular resonant frequencies of
the air and ionosphere molecules we are passing thru --
and then generate a slightly higher frequency in the
Aeroshell, in order to prevent them from 'touching'
the aeroshell.=A0 In order to 'push' them gently away,
or 'slide' them on past and around us.]

I hope you can subscribe to plasmajet smartgroups.com
where we post the dialog on this.=A0 It is a new and quiet
group -- but will probably grow over the coming months
to be a little more talkative.

Will send you two emails from yesterday, where I am
talking with an INSIGHTFUL 'retired' aerospace engineer in
Texas about some of the aeroshell vortex design issues!

How was it that Schauberger separated "positive / negative air"?

Our design, VERY preliminary at the moment, plans to
negatively charge the injected air -- and positively charge
the injected hydrogen -- so that they will rush together
and explode into flames?=A0 Electrodeless.=A0 I do not know
whether this is realistic.=A0 But it sounds realistic to
me, given sufficient velocity and density or voltage!

I am situated in Santa Monica, California this year.

=A0 See:=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://unamity.com/WorkShop">http://unamity.com/WorkS=
hop</A>

The X49 Fuel/Mass Ratio specs are at:

=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://unamity.com/specs">http://unamity.com/specs</A>

You are right, about (disInfo) aerodynamics being totally
boring.=A0 [But if YOU were Big Brother, owned 7 billion slaves,
would you want to enlighten them?] !!!

Well, OK.=A0 You and I are different from the bankers.=A0 We are
here to share and experience the light!

For our global rainbow family,


Millennium Twain

CC:=A0 Mark Tecson, Tim Ventura, John Fiala
& Plasmajet, AntiGravity, Black Triangle ...

Please keep an eye our for us for good ElectroAerodynamic
or Spaceplane graphics!


Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A>

--part1_143.ca46672.2ba4bd66_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">How was it that Schauberger separated "positive / nega=
tive air"?<BR>
<BR>
"Our design, VERY preliminary at the moment, plans to<BR>
negatively charge the injected air -- and positively charge<BR>
the injected hydrogen -- so that they will rush together<BR>
and explode into flames?=A0 Electrodeless.=A0 I do not know<BR>
whether this is realistic.=A0 But it sounds realistic to<BR>
me, given sufficient velocity and density or voltage!"<BR>
<BR>
Subj:   <B>[Antigravity] Re: impressive X49=A0</B>   <BR>
Date:   3/15/2003 12:15:56 PM Eastern Standard Time <BR>
From:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:unamity yahoo.co.uk">unamity@yahoo.co.uk</A> <BR>
Reply-to:   <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoo=
groups.com</A> <BR>
To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:ufophysics hotmail.com">ufophysics@hotmail.com</A>  <B=
R>
CC: <A HREF=3D"mailto:plasmajet smartgroups.com">plasmajet@smartgroups.com</=
A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:Antigravity yahoogroups.com">Antigravity@yahoogroups.c=
om</A>, <A HREF=3D"mailto:black-triangle yahoogroups.com">black-triangle@yah=
oogroups.com</A>  <BR>
<I>Sent from the Internet (Details)</I>    <BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
thanks Paul!<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the X49 World Team!!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for helping us get the word out, to<BR>
expand our team, refine our visions, and propel<BR>
our world into a future in harmony with nature!!!<BR>
<BR>
It will great to talk about the X49 design details.<BR>
Not many ideas on the ElectroShell excitation voltage<BR>
frequencies yet -- am assuming that by bringing this<BR>
dialog into cyberspace that we will get a lot of ideas,<BR>
and testing going on soon.<BR>
<BR>
[I think that lower frequencies are preferred, from<BR>
the point of view of the mass of apparatus to generate<BR>
them -- assuming we ALSO require high current flow.=A0 But<BR>
if little current is expended, then perhaps we can go<BR>
to higher frequencies.=A0 I remember we used about 20 khz<BR>
(ultrasound, not electricity) in some cold fusion<BR>
experiments I was involved in.]<BR>
<BR>
[On the other hand.=A0 'Looking' would tell me we need to<BR>
identify the main molecular resonant frequencies of<BR>
the air and ionosphere molecules we are passing thru --<BR>
and then generate a slightly higher frequency in the<BR>
Aeroshell, in order to prevent them from 'touching'<BR>
the aeroshell.=A0 In order to 'push' them gently away,<BR>
or 'slide' them on past and around us.]<BR>
<BR>
I hope you can subscribe to plasmajet smartgroups.com<BR>
where we post the dialog on this.=A0 It is a new and quiet<BR>
group -- but will probably grow over the coming months<BR>
to be a little more talkative.<BR>
<BR>
Will send you two emails from yesterday, where I am<BR>
talking with an INSIGHTFUL 'retired' aerospace engineer in<BR>
Texas about some of the aeroshell vortex design issues!<BR>
<BR>
How was it that Schauberger separated "positive / negative air"?<BR>
<BR>
Our design, VERY preliminary at the moment, plans to<BR>
negatively charge the injected air -- and positively charge<BR>
the injected hydrogen -- so that they will rush together<BR>
and explode into flames?=A0 Electrodeless.=A0 I do not know<BR>
whether this is realistic.=A0 But it sounds realistic to<BR>
me, given sufficient velocity and density or voltage!<BR>
<BR>
I am situated in Santa Monica, California this year.<BR>
<BR>
=A0 See:=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://unamity.com/WorkShop">http://unamity.com/WorkS=
hop</A><BR>
<BR>
The X49 Fuel/Mass Ratio specs are at:<BR>
<BR>
=A0 <A HREF=3D"http://unamity.com/specs">http://unamity.com/specs</A><BR>
<BR>
You are right, about (disInfo) aerodynamics being totally<BR>
boring.=A0 [But if YOU were Big Brother, owned 7 billion slaves,<BR>
would you want to enlighten them?] !!!<BR>
<BR>
Well, OK.=A0 You and I are different from the bankers.=A0 We are<BR>
here to share and experience the light!<BR>
<BR>
For our global rainbow family,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Millennium Twain<BR>
<BR>
CC:=A0 Mark Tecson, Tim Ventura, John Fiala<BR>
&amp; Plasmajet, AntiGravity, Black Triangle ...<BR>
<BR>
Please keep an eye our for us for good ElectroAerodynamic<BR>
or Spaceplane graphics!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_143.ca46672.2ba4bd66_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 15 17:04:22 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:02:17 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:10:03 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin,
>
>> The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV more stable than Ag110. 
>
>Yes in the ground state, but how stable is a high-spin deformed nucleus when it is stressed by sudden "charge alteration" in its inner electron orbital?

x-ray studies of Pd110 reveal that the binding energy of the inner electron is about 24 keV. Since such studies constitute a serious and sudden "charge alteration" of the inner electrons, and to my knowledge no one has ever claimed to have brought about transmutation during such studies, I don't think this kite will fly.
[snip]
>Or perhaps one could "borrow" most of it from the Coulomb S&L?

What does the abbreviation "S&L" mean?

>
>If the Pd -110 nucleus is deformed enough to show octupole instability in the nuclear ground state, would anything in this article change your mind (admittedly, it calls for a leap of faith)?
>http://www.gsi.de/~msep/PIC/Ag94.pdf

No, I don't think so. You still need an adequate source of energy.

>
>> Ag110 can be formed directly by Pd108 + deuterino -> Ag110.
>
>Yes. That would be lovely and highly preferred. But a major problem is that Palladium has only the single "energy hole" to get deuterinos down to n=2 and at that stage they aren't very "neutral" and shouldn't get very far through the outer Pd orbitals.

This I don't follow. Pd may only have a single energy hole, but that just means that it can only shrink hydrinos/deuterinos one level at a time.
It has no implications for the ultimate level reached.

>
>I believe Horace at one time suggested a mechanism that would use the Pd atom's own Coulomb forces to propel a proton in past the k-shell. This mechanism might even be more robust if it could "slingshot" an ionized deuterino in, using its EUV photon as a booster. From there on, one would have to ask, would the charge alteration be enough to stimulate beta decay in an already deformed nucleus?

This isn't necessary. A negative muon is about 200 times heavier than an electron, and consequently takes up an "orbit" about 200 times closer to the nucleus than an electron. A small negatively charged deuterino-deuteride(?) would have a mass of over well over 3600 electrons, and hence would almost sit on top of the heavy nucleus, prevented from doing so only by the radius of its own orbitsphere.

>
>I was groping for an alternative mechanism that would allow for the appearance Ag110, which Wolf and others have found, something like a stimulated beta decay of the Pd.  IOW a mechanism w/o depending on something that could turn out to be a fiction, like "auto-catalyzation" to get the deuterino down well below n=2. 

No "auto-catalyzation" (did you mean disproportionation?) is required.
Any Mills catalyst present would do the job, including Pd itself, or K.
(Which BTW has an "m" of 3.)

>
>But one thing is very likely - there are going to be a number of different mechanisms at work in cold fusion...and probably a few of them will turn out to be even "wilder" i.e. farther from the mainstream paradigm, than anything we have concocted so far...

That wouldn't surprise me all that much. :)


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 15 23:20:04 2003
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Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:18:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
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>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:19:57 -0600:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>>Robin,
>>>
>>>   > The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV
>>>more stable than Ag110.
>>
>>What does the .89 Me V more stable mean?
>
>It means that the difference in mass between Ag110 and Pd110 (i.e. 
>Ag110 - Pd110) is (0.89 MeV)/c^2. IOW, Ag110 is a little heavier 
>than Pd110, so if you want to turn Pd110 into Ag110, then you have 
>to add enough energy to create the extra mass.

Hum, do you mean that it doesn't capture a particle? IYHO, what 
accounts for the increase in mass?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 16 00:40:58 2003
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Subject: Re: Vortex Shauberger Plasma Engine
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Several years ago I listened to Walter Baumgartner of 
www.vortexscience lecture on all the nifty things that could be done 
with Shauberger vortices. Unfortunately all Walter has for sale is 
pretty pictures. If you ever find a working machine that utilizes 
them, please let me know.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 16 05:40:37 2003
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Are Cygnons 4-Quark Neutral Particles?
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The mysterious "Cygnon":

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/starlog/cygx3.html

If Cygnus X-3 is a "Quark Star", then the Cygnon could be a 4-Quark Neutral Particle
with a rest mass/energy of ~ 1248 Mev,and  net spin 0, net charge 0, and 0 magnetons
nuclear magnetic moment, with an infinite lifetime.

A line-up of the Cygnon quarks:

<----    (-)
---->    (+)
<----    (-)
---->    (+)

Such a particle could pervade the Universe without interaction with other nucleons to
speak of. WIMPs?

OTOH, a neutral Cygnon (X)  might interact with a deuteron in a low temperature plasma
to effect "low energy stripping", by (temporary?) strong-force coupling to the proton
(P) end of the deuteron:

X + D ----> XP + neutron + ~200 Mev gamma

The XP particle would have a mass/energy of ~ 2184 Mev (~ 2.3 AMU), net charge +1, net
spin 1/2, and a nuclear magnetic moment of ~ 2.8 magnetons.

Hopefully, the ~200 Mev gamma has a very low interaction cross-section.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick



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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> The mysterious "Cygnon":
> 
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/starlog/cygx3.html

A shortcut:

Argument for new particle comes mainly neutron can not survive 37000 years of travel, but for an particle traveling very close to c, neutron short life would be sufficient according to special relativity. As the energy of the particle is roughly known, this give its speed if its rest mass is known. Therefore the actual particle time passed in travel can be calculated and be checked against the neutron average life.

> 
> If Cygnus X-3 is a "Quark Star", then the Cygnon could be a 4-Quark Neutral Particle
> with a rest mass/energy of ~ 1248 Mev,and  net spin 0, net charge 0, and 0 magnetons
> nuclear magnetic moment, with an infinite lifetime.

[snip] 

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Frederick

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 16 09:09:12 2003
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----- Original Message -----
From: "hamdix " <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Are Cygnons 4-Quark Neutral Particles?

Hamdi wrote:


>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > The mysterious "Cygnon":
> >
> > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/starlog/cygx3.html
>
> A shortcut:
>
> Argument for new particle comes mainly neutron can not survive 37000 years of
travel, but for an particle traveling very close to c, neutron short life would be
sufficient according to special relativity. As the energy of the particle is roughly
known, this give its speed if its rest mass is known. Therefore the actual particle
time passed in travel can be calculated and be checked against the neutron average
life.

Been There Done That, Hamdi.

The neutron from Cygnus X-3 would have to have an energy of over 1.0e18 ev, which is
at least two orders of magnitude above the energies seen from X-3:

Gamma = [(E(ev)/938Mev) + 1] = 1.3e9

E = 938e6*1.3e9 = 1.22e18 ev

T' = 37,000 * 3.154e7/900 = 1.3e9 sec

Thus, others have discounted the possibility of the Cygnon being a neutron, leaving
the possibility of a neutral 4-quark particle. WIMP?  :-)

Regards,

Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 16 10:04:41 2003
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There is lot of delays and overhead here. Thre are also privacy problem becuse paypal will keep rrecords of the transactions and this database can be used for other purposes.


Actually. two requirements would stop the spam efficiently:

1) Spammers use mass mailing. They can not afford to process each mail manually.

2) Most of spams have dummy return addresses. Even the return address is valid there is no human to read them.

So, a mail client program asking sender confirm its mail before to deliver to your inbox would stop most of spams.

It may possible that spammers make automatic arrangements for that. it is easy to enforce human handling by asking
sender to write down on its confirmation reply a number given in graphic format. This method is widely used.

An example for confirmation request:


*********
Subject: Confirmation request for [ original subject line]

Body:
[small explanation of the purpose of this mail]

Please reply this message including the number shown on the picture below. 

You will receive a confirmaton mail after your mail is accepted.

*********

it is not needed to reply this mail in particular format,  just need to write the number
in any place of the body even in the subject line. 
  
The email client software will scan all mails with matching reference id
found on the mail header and the number requested in the body or subject of the message
if the number is found and the body is not filled by hundreds guessed numbers
it accept her mail.

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> The best I have seen so far:
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030313.html
> 
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 16 20:24:45 2003
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Subject: Tesla Society meeting
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Well, I went to the monthly meeting of the Minnesota Tesla Socitey. 
Warren Opheim dropped off the Jack Carey CD. Which I watched. They 
had a box the size of a heavy duty battery charger which was able to 
run five or six motors, which had to be started one at a time. I 
couldn't read the size in HP rating. I know that an unloaded motor 
takes way less power than one under load, There was a digital read 
out showing the following: 1.65 KVA 1.63  KVAR 350 W 240 V 20 PF and 
7 A. Since I have no idea what the motors were consuming, and also no 
idea about the power input, I can't say that this demonstration 
proved anything.

There was also a demonstration of the box running a drill press, 
which was powered by what appeared to be a 1 HP motor and a 3 HP 
motor on an air compressor. They also operated an arc welder set at 
100 A for a few seconds. I assume that this was powered by two 30 A 
fuses. Running those loads on single phase would require about 50+ A, 
which should have tripped the fuses. however, 25 + A of that load 
comes from the arc welder which only operated for a short period of 
time, and the box could have accumulated energy, so that 
demonstration proves nothing either.

I brought a video tape made by a retired Los Angles narcotics 
detective who says that the only reason that the economy keeps on 
keeping on is because of regular infusions of laundered drug money. 
He also makes a good case for the government's allowing 9-11 to 
happen. Then he gets into the Patriot act. His website is 
www.copvcia.com  .

Since I had already seen the tape, I looked over German Flying 
Saucers. The author spends most of the book on various FE machines. I 
would seem to me that if those designs could me made to work, someone 
would have made them work. Ever since Walter Baumgartner addressed 
the Tesla Society conference, I've had an interest in Schanberger 
vortex designs. AFAIK, all they are is pretty pictures. The one thing 
that I think might work is a ducted fan or fans in a saucer shaped 
housing.

Finally someone brought a video of a representative of Genesis 
Energy, www.genesisworldenergy.com . He was talking about an 
energized form of water, which may be the same thing that a friend of 
a friend has. Their machine electroyzes some of the water and 
dissolves the resulting oxygen in it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 17 08:20:01 2003
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Subject: "Ignoring the Unthinkable" article about nuclear risk
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Here is a good article about a grim subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35567-2003Mar16.html

Former Sen. Nunn has done a good job trying to alert people about this 
danger. It will surely grow more acute in the next few weeks.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 17 08:57:23 2003
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:44:30 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Hi,

RvS " x-ray studies of Pd110 reveal that the binding energy of the inner electron is about 24 keV" 

Yes. This is why it seems unlikely to me that any hydrino can ever reach a Pd nucleus, or even get past the inner orbitals. 

Correction, any hydrino, that is, whose ionization potential is not greater than 24 keV will not get past the k-shell. If a hydrino has a higher IP than that, one must demonstrate a way that such hydrinos are being formed in quantity, rather than just adding another layer of unproven conjecture.

Although un-ionized hydrinos, like all atoms, are net neutral in charge, they express an intense negatively charged near-field that will strongly interact with any atoms' electron cloud, don't you agree?  

How do you propose to overcome this?

RvS: "Since such studies constitute a serious and sudden "charge alteration" of the inner electrons, and to my knowledge no one has ever claimed to have brought about transmutation during such studies, I don't think this kite will fly."

Perhaps it won't, but a charge alteration brought on by the temporary (picosecond )removal of a k-shell electron, IMHO doesn't constitute a serious and sudden alteration, as it is quickly replaced through an Auger cascade, and is a far cry from the appearance of a positively charged proton inside the k-shell. 

I would think the difference between these two would be overwhelming. The charge effect of a positively-charged proton, at the k-shell orbital distance, might be billions of times more significant than the temporary displacement of one of the electrons.

 [snip]
 
> What does the abbreviation "S&L" mean?

Sorry that's "Savings and Loan" a kind of US local bank

> This I don't follow. Pd may only have a single energy hole, but that just means that it can only shrink hydrinos/deuterinos one level at a time.

Perhaps so, perhaps not. 

In all of the Mills' literature, multi-step shrinkage has never been studied in detail. Although I am personally convinced in the basic hydrino concept, i.e. that some level of redundant ground state hydrino has been found, AND proven, through clear and convincing spectroscopy evidence, I won't go that extra step yet: the higher level shrinkage HAS NOT been demonstrated yet. I hope it will be, but let's not go that far until it has.

Robin, think about it, if hydrinos were really available at very high level redundant states (high IP), let's say greater than 1 keV of IP, just think about how easy those hydrinos would be to demonstrated convincingly. Unlike EUV which is the radiation spectra from lower states, the radiation from x-rays is NOT universally absorbed, in fact such radiation is hard to disguise and many of us have GM monitors capable of detecting this spectrum.

With higher level shrinkage, x-rays of that intensity just can't be hidden, yet - can you cite a reference to keV level emission from a BLP plasma? I wish it were true, but I don't think so...Multi-level shrinkage IMHO seems to be little more than supposition, even if you buy into the hydrino at EUV levels. Mills shows us plenty of EUV spectroscopy, which is convincing, but NO x-ray spectroscopy, which is FAR easier from the standpoint of available lab equipment. 

Furthermore, as to the relevance of the hydrino to CF phenomena, If you look closely at all of the range of catalysts and the results that Mills gets, I find NO robust results unless a catalyst is employed that will easily form a 54.4 eV or greater hole, like helium, Ni, Sr or K. Please correct me, and cite if you know of a detailed study of multistep shrinkage, disproportionation, with single step catalysts, as this could be a critical limitation for applying Mills' theory to palladium CF. I can find none.
 
RvS> This isn't necessary. A negative muon is about 200 times heavier than an electron, and consequently takes up an "orbit" about 200 times closer to the nucleus than an electron. 

ONLY if it can get past the k-shell to begin with.

Yes, a muon (or highly shrunken hydrino) could catalyze D+D or Dy+Dy, but NOT Dy+Pd as no muon or hydrino can get that far into the inner orbitals of Pd, on its own, can it?

> No "auto-catalyzation" (did you mean disproportionation?) 

Yes. Let me add this for those who haven't followed Mills.

Mills states without any proof that once catalysis begins, hydrinos can autocatalyze further in a process he sometimes calls "disproportionation," which is to say that lower-energy hydrogen atoms, hydrinos, can act as a source of energy holes that can cause transition reactions because the energies of excitation and/or ionization by nonradiative mechanisms are multiples of 27.2 eV. 

It could be true, or it could be a cop-out. AFAIK this is just his conjecture, nothing more, and we must remove it from the actual proof that Mills has offered in his EUV spectroscopy for low step shrinkage. 

> Any Mills catalyst present would do the job, including Pd itself, or K.
> (Which BTW has an "m" of 3.)

Many CF electrolytes don't use K, and even if they did, what on earth is going to remove ALL three electron from one atoms' orbital at the same time. I find that preposterous, using only a few volts of DC as input.

I hope you can clarify this for me in detail (at the level of the Pd atom). Since Mills has refused to acknowledge CF at all, and I don't know where else the "particulars" of his theory wrt CF are being discussed. 

BTW, since you are a big proponent of this cross-over, have you considered starting a forum just for that narrow area (i.e. the hydrino as the basis for CF)? Maybe Horace would join us as resident skeptic?

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 17 10:34:44 2003
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Subject: RE: "Ignoring the Unthinkable" article about nuclear risk
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:47:55 -0500
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He could have mentioned that the "infusion of private funds"
was in fact from the co-chair on the board, Ted Turner, to
the tune of about 250 million dollars.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/12962.htm

Oh yes, the projects were languishing because
congressional republicans had been blocking funding
to any such project outside of Russia itself.

To be fair, (R-Ind) Richard Lugar has made it a priority
to decommission Shchuch'ye, a Russian stockpile
of 2-million munitions filled with nerve gases like
sarin and VX. 

http://lugar.senate.gov/nunnlugar.htm#topten

In frustration, Lugar named those blocking his
initiative, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) and 
Rep. Curt Weldon (R-PA). It's worth noting
that both received the most money for
campaign financing from the defense industry,
who certainly would be negatively affected
by threat reduction...

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/indus.asp?CID=N00006983&cycle=2000

http://www.opensecrets.org/races/indus.asp?ID=PA07&cycle=2000&special=N

Of course, it's instructive to compare their
campaign contributions to Rep. Lugars.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/indus.asp?CID=N00001764&cycle=2000

Amazing how this database is like a scalpel, cutting
to the bone of what makes our government work.

K.


 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:16 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: "Ignoring the Unthinkable" article about nuclear risk


Here is a good article about a grim subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35567-2003Mar16.html

Former Sen. Nunn has done a good job trying to alert people about this 
danger. It will surely grow more acute in the next few weeks.

- Jed



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Keith Nagel wrote:

>He could have mentioned that the "infusion of private funds"
>was in fact from the co-chair on the board, Ted Turner, to
>the tune of about 250 million dollars.

I expect Turner saw and approved the article. It would be ungracious not to 
mention him, unless he asked to be left out. He & Bill Gates have huge egos 
but they understand that sometimes it is better to fade into the background 
and not take credit for good deeds.

- Jed


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My brief opinion on possible US war with Iraq:

Any military operation one country to other without UN approval would not be different from any war
started in the past including WW2, from ethical point, whatever the reason.

I hope my govt consider this before voting to contribute it.

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 17 12:34:13 2003
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See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf

Note the Acknowledgements.

- Jed
  


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From: "Jed Rothwell" 

> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf
> 
> Note the Acknowledgements.

I guess you mean Carlo rather than Mirriam...

I wonder if some of Rubbia's motivation for getting involved in CF goes back to his disgust with Taubes for his very unflattering bio in "Nobel Dreams" Then again it is easy to be disgusted with Taubes...

At any rate, can anyone define clearly the *d-electron plasma*? I guess it is d-shell electron bundles, but it sure looks a lot like something else...

Many vortexians are familiar with Kenneth Shoulders and his High Density Charge Cluster, "a relatively discrete, self-contained, negatively charged, high density state of matter"... [a bundle of electrons] produced by a high electrical field ....

Ken Shoulders has given the name EV or "Electrum Validum" to this phenomenon. EVs have been credited by many with accomplishing cold fusion transmutations.

Do d-electrons bear any resemblance to EV's ? I hate it when we too many names for the same thing start floating around...

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 17 13:46:15 2003
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If this should be redundant please ignore the links.
If not, enjoy!

Sorry, I've been busy and haven't been keeping current.

Thunderbird


http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/LostArk.html

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2003/03/12.html




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 17 19:30:58 2003
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Hi All.

Given the data provided in the paper, I calculate the
electrolyte resistance to be at most 770ohms. If the
cathode resistance is >3000ohm, will cathodic
current distribute evenly along the cathode length?
Even given that both ends are driven, that's still
a 2 to 1 difference in resistance favoring the
spread of current from near a driving point
to the anode. The middle of the element will
hardly load, being starved for current.

Inhomogeneous spreading of current in the cathode
could explain a number of the effects they
note, in particular the superheating and bursting
of the cathode line at some point along it's
length. I suspect it would be close to a driving point,
and although a sample of destroyed cathode is shown, it's
unclear where the break is.

Perhaps someone with experience measuring helium
could comment on the technique used.

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:21 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ENEA report on helium uploaded


From: "Jed Rothwell"

> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf
>
> Note the Acknowledgements.

I guess you mean Carlo rather than Mirriam...

I wonder if some of Rubbia's motivation for getting involved in CF goes back
to his disgust with Taubes for his very unflattering bio in "Nobel Dreams"
Then again it is easy to be disgusted with Taubes...

At any rate, can anyone define clearly the *d-electron plasma*? I guess it
is d-shell electron bundles, but it sure looks a lot like something else...

Many vortexians are familiar with Kenneth Shoulders and his High Density
Charge Cluster, "a relatively discrete, self-contained, negatively charged,
high density state of matter"... [a bundle of electrons] produced by a high
electrical field ....

Ken Shoulders has given the name EV or "Electrum Validum" to this
phenomenon. EVs have been credited by many with accomplishing cold fusion
transmutations.

Do d-electrons bear any resemblance to EV's ? I hate it when we too many
names for the same thing start floating around...

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 18 08:23:35 2003
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From: Yakov Smirnoff <rockcast net-link.net>
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At this website is the page text that follows:
http://www.worldscinet.com/mpla/15/1501/S0217732300000050.html




And here is the page:

<http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/journalhp_r02_c01.jpg> 
<http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/headerlogotest.jpg>
<http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/journalhp_r03_c01.jpg>
What's New | New Journals | Browse Journals | Search | For Authors | How To 
Order  
Contact Us | Free Table of Contents Email Updates | Download Acrobat Reader | 
Free Sample Issues | Advertising Enquiries
<http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/transgif.gif>

<http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/worldscinet.gif>
Modern Physics Letters A, Vol. 15, No. 1 (2000) 23-28
Š World Scientific Publishing Company




PHOTOPRODUCTION OF DILATONS IN AN EXTERNAL MAGNETIC FIELD

DANG VAN SOA <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/tex2html-1.gif>
The Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics, Trieste, Italy
and
Department of Physics, Hanoi University of Mining and Geology, Dong Ngac, Tu 
Liem, Hanoi, Vietnam

HOANG NGOC LONG
Institute of Physics, National Centre for Natural Science and Technology, P. 
O. Box 429, Bo Ho, Hanoi 10000, Vietnam

An attempt is made to present some experimental predictions of the five 
dimensions Kaluza-Klein theory. The conversion of photons into dilatons in 
the static magnetic fields are considered in detail. The differential 
cross-sections are presented for the conversions in a magnetic field of the 
flat condensor and a magnetic field of the solenoid. A numerical evaluation 
shows that in the present technical scenario, the creation of dilatons at 
high energies may have the observable value.

Footnotes:

<http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/tex2html-1.gif> E-mail: 
dvsoa ictp.trieste.it; dvsoa@bohr.ac.vn




PDF SOURCE (132 k)


Back to Contents of Vol. 15, No. 1


Hoping to start a new thread and maybe a new approach to space travel.
Just suppose these two Viet-Namese scientists working in Hanoi are on
to something?  So far we have small outputs.  Maaaayyybe with a little
work that could change.  UFO's are usually observed as 'lights in the
sky' and having changing 'glows'.    Some 'abductees' have stated in 
interviews that they were told by visiting crewmen aboard those craft
that those people used devices that 'drew the destinations to them' instead
of traveling there.  This would mean a craft could stand still and undergo
no acceleration at all, simply distort space with 'dilaton forces' in front 
and back of the craft to accomplish the effective translation of the ship
to its destination.

Yakov
    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 18 08:24:23 2003
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Keith,
 
> Inhomogeneous spreading of current in the cathode
> could explain a number of the effects they
> note, in particular the superheating and bursting
> of the cathode line 

Perhaps it is also part of their technique, well-planned or not, to create the "d-electron" plasma (or EVs if the two are the same)....

...also, it is interesting to surmise how the high loading >1 affects the conductivity of small areas of the cathode.... If BEC-like pockets really do form, could the cathode have little tornado-like helices of mega-ohm current circulating... that is, before the field collapses and plasmoid micro-explosions erupt ....

I have some dandy SEM (scanning electron microscope) photos taken by Ken Shoulders of various cathodes sent to him by Claytor, Storms Miley, McKubre, Dash, etc, that clearly show the violence and surprisingly large size of these microexplosions. The photos are more detailed and clearer than anything that can be found on LENR-CANR except maybe the very cool SEM photo on the cover of Mizuno's Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion). I had offered the photos to Rothwell some months ago for inclusion on the site (with the permission of KS) but never heard back - maybe they are too large for the space available....actually that particular cover image [Mizuno] says it all - doesn't it?

Jones


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Correction to previous post: should read "mega-amp" rather than...mega-ohm

actually it couldn't really be mega-amp- as in millions of amps -even if the BEC is superconducting, so lets just say, "way more current than should be there..."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 18 08:41:47 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: ENEA report on helium uploaded
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Jones Beene wrote:

>I have some dandy SEM (scanning electron microscope) photos taken by Ken 
>Shoulders of various cathodes sent to him by Claytor, Storms Miley, 
>McKubre, Dash, etc . . .

>Reality of Cold Fusion). I had offered the photos to Rothwell some months 
>ago for inclusion on the site (with the permission of KS) but never heard 
>back - maybe they are too large for the space available....

I do not recall that! The message must have been lost in the shuffle. There 
are times when I get an huge pile of documents and e-mail, and I lose 
track. Do you have permission from Shoulders to put them on this web site? 
That's fine! He does not like me, but I try to keep a low profile on 
LENR-CANR.org, so perhaps he will not mind my presence.

How big are they, anyway? We can always reduce them.

Are they part of a publication, or just informal photos? A publication 
would go in the library, if you can tell me the journal title, date and so 
on. Photos are suitable for the "Visit an Experiment" section, which 
includes an imposing photo of the Italian National Laboratory helium 
detector. Please supply captions and all available background information, 
such as the type of material, name of experimenter, source of material 
(vender, purity; "Johnson Matthey, 99.8% pure"), the dates the photos were 
taken, etc.

- Jed


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On Tuesday 18 March 2003 11:26, Yakov Smirnoff wrote:
> At this website is the page text that follows:
> http://www.worldscinet.com/mpla/15/1501/S0217732300000050.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the page:
> 
> <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/journalhp_r02_c01.jpg> 
> <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/headerlogotest.jpg>
> <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/journalhp_r03_c01.jpg>
> What's New | New Journals | Browse Journals | Search | For Authors | How To 
> Order  
> Contact Us | Free Table of Contents Email Updates | Download Acrobat Reader 
| 
> Free Sample Issues | Advertising Enquiries
> <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/transgif.gif>
> 
> <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/worldscinet.gif>
> Modern Physics Letters A, Vol. 15, No. 1 (2000) 23-28
> Š World Scientific Publishing Company
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PHOTOPRODUCTION OF DILATONS IN AN EXTERNAL MAGNETIC FIELD
> 
> DANG VAN SOA <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/tex2html-1.gif>
> The Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics, Trieste, Italy
> and
> Department of Physics, Hanoi University of Mining and Geology, Dong Ngac, Tu 
> Liem, Hanoi, Vietnam
> 
> HOANG NGOC LONG
> Institute of Physics, National Centre for Natural Science and Technology, P. 
> O. Box 429, Bo Ho, Hanoi 10000, Vietnam
> 
> An attempt is made to present some experimental predictions of the five 
> dimensions Kaluza-Klein theory. The conversion of photons into dilatons in 
> the static magnetic fields are considered in detail. The differential 
> cross-sections are presented for the conversions in a magnetic field of the 
> flat condensor and a magnetic field of the solenoid. A numerical evaluation 
> shows that in the present technical scenario, the creation of dilatons at 
> high energies may have the observable value.
> 
> Footnotes:
> 
> <http://www.worldscinet.com/graphics/tex2html-1.gif> E-mail: 
> dvsoa ictp.trieste.it; dvsoa@bohr.ac.vn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PDF SOURCE (132 k)
> 
> 
> Back to Contents of Vol. 15, No. 1
> 
> 
> Hoping to start a new thread and maybe a new approach to space travel.
> Just suppose these two Viet-Namese scientists working in Hanoi are on
> to something?  So far we have small outputs.  Maaaayyybe with a little
> work that could change.  UFO's are usually observed as 'lights in the
> sky' and having changing 'glows'.    Some 'abductees' have stated in 
> interviews that they were told by visiting crewmen aboard those craft
> that those people used devices that 'drew the destinations to them' instead
> of traveling there.  This would mean a craft could stand still and undergo
> no acceleration at all, simply distort space with 'dilaton forces' in front 
> and back of the craft to accomplish the effective translation of the ship
> to its destination.
> 
> Yakov
>     
> 
> 
> 
PS    forgot to add the following web page on the Kaluza-Klein theories
concerning 5 dimensions:
   http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~schaar/htmlreport/node12.html

makes for interesting reading!
Yakov........again!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 18 09:02:26 2003
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From: "Yakov Smirnoff" <rockcast net-link.net>

At this website is the page text that follows:
http://www.worldscinet.com/mpla/15/1501/S0217732300000050.html


Hoping to start a new thread and maybe a new approach to space travel.
Just suppose these two Viet-Namese scientists working in Hanoi are on
to something?  So far we have small outputs.  Maaaayyybe with a little
work that could change.  UFO's are usually observed as 'lights in the
sky' and having changing 'glows'.    Some 'abductees' have stated in 
interviews that they were told by visiting crewmen aboard those craft
that those people used devices that 'drew the destinations to them' instead
of traveling there.  This would mean a craft could stand still and undergo
no acceleration at all, simply distort space with 'dilaton forces' in front 
and back of the craft to accomplish the effective translation of the ship
to its destination.

Yakov


Can you summarize their evidence?

My Browser (Opera) doesn't show anything from these references except the abstract and it looks they want $20 for the paper...a little steep if the info is as cranky as it seems...

OTOH if it is related to "quintessence" possibly a real phenomenon, then it is interesting. See:
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/11/8
    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 18 20:32:32 2003
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Oil prices/NewSpeak
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:48:38 -0500
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Crude prices have dropped 16% in the last 4
days... And the Saudis claim they'll open
the tap in the likely event that something
unfortunate happens to the Iraqi oil fields.
Anyone think we'll see the price push $20???

I guess in hindsight they keep George on the short
lease for a very good reason. Consider this passage
from his press conference.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030306-8.html

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Q Thank you, Mr. President. As you said, the Security Council faces a vote
next week on a resolution implicitly authorizing an attack on Iraq. Will you
call for a vote on that resolution, even if you aren't sure you have the
vote?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, first, I don't think -- it basically says that he's in
defiance of 1441. That's what the resolution says. And it's hard to believe
anybody is saying he isn't in defiance of 1441, because 1441 said he must
disarm. And, yes, we'll call for a vote.

Q No matter what?

THE PRESIDENT: No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote.
We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam
Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you
bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where
they stand when it comes to Saddam.
////////////////////////////////////

That sounded like an "off-script" moment for George.
No doubt some big klaxxon in Dick Cheney's bunker
started sounding "whoop-whoop-whoop" when that
comment hit the feed... Orange Alert, Dick!

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:57 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Oil prices/NewSpeak


Keith Nagel wrote:

>"We'll be there in a minute. King, John King.
>This is a scripted -- (laughter.)"

I thought he meant he was was calling on people in a predetermined order
from a list. I read that in the New York Times.


>For the second part, watch the press conference yourself. It's
>painfully obvious that he's being fed lines, watch his
>delivery. Short slow sentences, pauses between to allow
>him time for the next line. . . .

Perhaps you are right. I assumed he trained for the conference the way
modern politicians train for important debates, by memorizing stock answers
to expected questions. I assumed he was giving canned responses from a
briefing book, or perhaps reading from cards or a TelePrompTer. I was not
watching closely.


>There are several points in the speech when he "wings"
>it, note the remarkable change in delivery and style
>of speech. Here's an example of where he goes off script. Listen
>to the audio stream and I think you'll see what I mean.

It was pretty noticeable, but I assumed those were memorized segments.
Politicians are often good at memorizing short speeches.


>You think this is glossolalia, Jed??? Or can he turn
>his dyslexia on and off at will?

An interesting point. Actually, I suffer from mild dyslexia (nowhere near
as bad as Bush's!) and to some extent I can turn it on and off, mainly by
concentrating and writing down everything rather than trying to speak
extemporaneously. Bush does have pronounced difficulty with language; the
worst I recall seeing in a public figure. If my child had that kind of
difficulty, I would consider a speech therapist. But such problems do not
necessarily reflect underlying mental processes, especially not when
problems respond well to therapy.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 19 04:12:07 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:11:10 +0200
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Subject: (astro-ph/0303346) The speed of gravity has not been measured from time 
 delays
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0303346

The speed of gravity has not been measured from time delays

Authors: Joshua A. Faber
Comments: 5 pages, no figures, RevTeX, submitted to ApJ Lett

  The recent passage of Jupiter by the quasar QSO
  J0842+1835 at a separation of 3.7 arcminutes on September
  8, 2002, combined with recent advances in interferometric
  radio timing, has allowed for the first measurement of
  higher-order post-Newtonian terms in the Shapiro time delay
  which depend linearly on the velocity of the gravitating body.
  Claims have been made that these measurements also
  allow for the measurement of the propagation speed of the
  gravitational force. This conclusion disagrees with recent
  calculations done in the parameterized post-Newtonian
  (PPN) model, which find no dependence of the
  velocity-dependent terms in the time delay on the speed of
  gravity to the stated order. Here, to test out these claims
  and counterclaims, we calculate the time delay in the limit of
  an instantaneous gravitational force, and find that the
  velocity-dependent terms are in complete agreement with
  previous PPN calculations, with no dependence on the
  speed of gravity. We conclude that the speed of gravity
  cannot be determined by measuring these terms in the
  Shapiro time delay, and suggest a reason why other groups
  mistakenly came to the opposite conclusion. 


Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 19 08:03:47 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:08:35 -0800
From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
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Subject: Off Topic: The Arrogant Empire
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This is, I feel, a good analysis of Amreicas current administration and how 
it's effect upon world opinion.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?0cv=KA01#BODY
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<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><flushleft>This is, I feel, a good =
analysis of Amreicas current administration and how it's effect upon world =
opinion.


http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?0cv=3DKA01#BODY
--==========07731294==========--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 19 15:10:38 2003
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R. Wormus recommends a Newsweek article:

"The Arrogant Empire"

"America’s unprecedented power scares the world, and the Bush 
administration has only made it worse. How we got here—and what we can do 
about it now"

I agree this is very incisive.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 19 15:30:14 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:26:25 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: humor: Those NASA boys..according to the Navajo elder..
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Pat Bailey sent this to me.

>I think this is appropriate at this date:
>
>Subject: Those NASA boys..according to the Navajo elder..
>
>Richard thought you might like this ..
>
>When NASA was preparing for the Apollo Project, it took the astronauts to a
>Navajo reservation in Arizona for training.
>
>One day, a Navajo elder and his son came across the space crew walking among
>the rocks. The elder, who spoke only Navajo, asked a question. His son
>translated for the NASA people: "What are these guys in the big suits doing?"
>
>One of the astronauts said that they were practicing for a trip to the moon.
>When his son relayed this comment the Navajo elder got all excited and asked
>if it would be possible to give to the astronauts a message to deliver to the
>moon.
>
>Recognizing a promotional opportunity when he saw one, a NASA official
>accompanying the astronauts said, "Why certainly!" and told an underling to
>get a tape recorder. The Navajo elder's comments into the microphone were
>brief.
>
>The NASA official asked the son if he would translate what his father had
>said. The son listened to the recording and laughed uproariously. But he
>refused to translate. So the NASA people took the tape to a nearby Navajo
>village and played it for other members of the tribe. They too laughed long
>and loudly but also refused to translate the elder's message to the moon.
>
>Finally, an official government translator was summoned. After he finally
>stopped laughing the translator relayed the message:
>"Watch out for these assholes - they have come to steal your land."
>
>[We will hold your oil wells in trust for the Iraq people, just like 
>we have for the US land for the Indians...]

I doubt that we will screw the Iraqi people any worse than the soon 
to be late Sodamn Insane did.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 20 13:42:20 2003
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Subject: goodbye Jack
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>goodbye Jack</title></head><body>
<div>Fellow Vortexians;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Having given Jack the benefit of the doubt, this is, I hope the
final communication with Mad Jack!</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">In a message
dated 3/19/03 7:04:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:</font><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1"><br></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<b> YOU CANNOT
explain zero&nbsp; and you making assumptions on top of
that.</b></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>To which I replied:</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">I told you that there was a basis in physical theory
why such a machine might work.</font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>To which Mr. Expert on physics replied</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<b> REPLY that is
your opinion but there isn't&nbsp;</b></font><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000000"><b>That is the total
moronic&nbsp; part.&nbsp; I do not have time to waste on you because
your totally closed and narrow minded&nbsp; Did you call me and
discuss the CD?&nbsp; NO NO&nbsp; NO&nbsp; you just came to
conclusions as usual&nbsp; LIKE we are all going to saved in a couple
years when i guess Christ returns. I will believe it when I see
it.</b></font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>To which I replied:</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000">someone as closed minded as you will probably see it
but not believe it anyway.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<b> REPLY&nbsp; You do not have clue one
what I have seen.&nbsp; If I told&nbsp; you and you believed it&nbsp;
you would probably make a mess in you pants.</b></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>MORON&nbsp; I drove all the the way to where you at
to drop off a bogus CD&nbsp; Give me a fucking break please. You do
not appear to have enough sense to come in out the rain&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
There was not 2 30 AMP breakers&nbsp; and you cannot even start 3
phase motors in that manor</b></font><font face="Arial"
color="#000000"><b><br>
</b><font size="-1"><br>
<br>
Wrong! all you need is single phase 240V and some
capacitors.</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>To which Mr. Expert on electrical engineering replied</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<b> REPLY&nbsp; WHATEVER&nbsp;</b></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><b>Good BYE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have a nice
day</b></font><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>To which I replied</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000000"><br>
Temper, temper, Jack, I told you right up front that the only way to
prove anything to me was with a waterheater and a watt hour meter.
Following the various discussions on Vortex-L, I concluded that a high
speed power analyzer was required too. This business attracts flakes.
and I've been burned too many times to do it any other way. Is the
offer to test the machine still open?</font><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1">&nbsp;<b>&nbsp;
REPLY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i'm tired of your moronic mail&nbsp;&nbsp;
and your ignorant of these situations testing ideas&nbsp; namely your
stupid waterheater idea&nbsp;&nbsp; A NAT MAG WAS HERE AND SAID ZERO
ABOUT A WATER HEATER&nbsp; THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY ARE
TALKING ABOUT VORTEX&nbsp;&nbsp; I PLAY WITH BIG BOYS AS YOU WILL SEE
IN THE NEXT MAIL NOT TWERPS LIKE YOU.</b></font><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1"><b>&nbsp;</b></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>My response to all this is</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>New, from Jack Carey Productions!! Just in time for
Christmas,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The I am Clueless Elmo Doll!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>powered by a battery that recharges itself! But it's not a free
energy machine.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Pull the string for free insults, including: What a MORON you
are, You are totally CLUELESS. I am a successful BUSS man. ENGIN are
stuck inside the box that their education put them in. I play with the
big boys. I am talking to several billionaires.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In my final post to Jack I concluded; You will recall my posting,
Is Jack Carey psychotic?, this just goes to show that you're
insane.</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 21 14:42:21 2003
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW    Friday, 21 Mar 03
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:17:53 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 21 Mar 03   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: WILL NORTH KOREA PUT BEACONS ON ITS MISSILES?
Undersecretary of Defense Pete Aldridge assured the Senate Armed
Services Committee on Tuesday that a rudimentary missile defense
in Ft. Greely Alaska would be 90 percent effective in stopping
North Korean ballistic missiles.  Senators were openly skeptical,
and the ranking Democrat, Carl Levin (D-MI), suggested Aldridge
go back and look at the numbers.  The most notable success of the
missile defense was to destroy the ABM Treaty (WN 14 Jun 02), but
against ballistic missiles its success rate is only 62%   and
that was with homing beacons on the missiles.  The Pentagon plans
to go ahead and deploy 10 interceptors near Ft. Greely anyway.  A
1983 law prohibits deployment of systems that have not been shown
to work, but Secretary Rumsfeld argues that missile defense is so
important we should deploy while we're testing (WN 28 Feb 03).

2. SECRECY: BUSH POLICY RETURNS TO "WHEN IN DOUBT, CLASSIFY." 
Faced with a mountain of classified documents created in the
Reagan years, President Clinton issued an order in 1995 requiring
automatic declassification of most documents after 25 years and
directing that nothing be classified unless the need for secrecy
is perfectly clear.  The draft of a new executive order being
circulated among federal agencies makes classification once again
the default position and postpones automatic declassification to
2007.  Every government seeks the power to keep whatever it wants
secret.  Bad news is kept secret, while good news is leaked.

3. ENVIRONMENT: SENATE VOTES AGAINST DRILLING IN WILDLIFE REFUGE. 
In spite of rising gas prices and rising concern over the effect
of war with Iraq on energy supplies the Republican-controlled
Senate voted against opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
to drilling.  It was a major defeat for President Bush, who had
made opening of the Refuge one of his top priorities.  But it's
Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK), the powerful chair of Appropriations,
who decides which Senators get a slice of pork, and he promised
payback.  "People who vote against it [drilling] are voting
against me, and I will not forget it."  Brr, I feel a cold draft.

4. DIVERSITY: STATE REPRESENTATIVE IN NEW MEXICO REACHES OUT. 
State Rep. Daniel R. Foley (R), whose district includes Roswell,
introduced a bill in the New Mexico Legislature to designate an
annual Extraterrestrial Culture Day to recognize contributions of
space aliens to the culture and economy of Roswell.

5. COLUMBIA HEARING POSTPONED: IRAQ WAR PREOCCUPIES WASHINGTON.  
The Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation,
chaired by John McCain, had scheduled a hearing for yesterday,
March 20, 2003 on the Space Station Columbia Investigation and
Future Space Policy.  WN notes that since the safe return of
Apollo 17 from the moon in 1972, no human has been any further
from Earth than Baltimore is from New York.  Assignment:  What
has been learned in the space program that has led to the quiet
shelving of the dream of interplanetary space travel by humans?

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: <aki ix.netcom.com>
To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to:
<leave-whatsnew-27231J lists.apsmsgs.org>
To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: <join-whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 09:04:28 2003
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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:02:13 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: New Scientist has article about cold fusion
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The print New Scientist has an article about cold fusion in the 26th 
October print edition. It is under books: "The afterlife of cold fusion." I 
have not seen it, and I do not know the content. I have heard it has the 
LENR-CANR.org address. Unfortunately, the article is not available on-line. 
If I understand New Scientist's policy, it will be available in the 
archives a  few weeks from now. They charge money for archive access, so I 
doubt it will have much impact.

LENR-CANR traffic has not fallen as much as I expected it would. Traffic 
today is 273 downloads, lighter than most weekends, but after the shuttle 
disaster it fell to 27. I suppose this a rather dull war, as wars go. Let 
us hope it stays dull. Totals for the week are 1,309 visitors, 3,603 downloads.

I posted several new papers, including a copy of Mallove's hard hitting: 
"MIT Special Report" (Infinite Energy, 1999. 4(24): p. 64). This is a copy 
of the file on the I.E. web site. It would save space and it would be 
better to put a pointer from our bibliography to the I.E. site, but I 
cannot do that easily at the moment. I have to tweak the program that 
generates the HTML code. The disadvantage would be that I would not know 
how many copies are being read. I have not had a chance to update the 
announcements or features page.

Next week I will post a clean copy of Miley's famous paper, "Nuclear 
transmutations in thin-film nickel coatings undergoing electrolysis." (J. 
New Energy, 1996. 1(3): p. 5, and I.E. #9.) Miley is proofreading it now. 
Some earlier Acrobat versions have been circulated, with the tables as 
images. I converted them into proper tables.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 09:14:28 2003
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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:13:16 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Another brilliant anti-spam idea from Cringley
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This is even better, in a way, because it is so simple:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030320.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 10:42:46 2003
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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:39:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Possibility of Nickel Colloids?
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I have been making Colloidal Silver Water for some
time now by the process of a Bipolar Series Resonance
of large induction coils, used with a variac
regulation to limit the current down to 1.2 ma, so
that excessive amounts of silver peroxide do not form
on the coins. A 'current limited' approach was
advocated by the members of the silver list, a
discussion group of people making CS.

Teslafy Homepage has a couple of articles on this.
(March 11 & 13)

I understand that stainless steel seems to offer no
deposits of metals into a solution. Does anyone know
if silver is "unique" to making colloidal solutions?
I would like to try the same process using Canadian
Nickle quarters, which are magnetic.

This would give a water solution that might appear
slightly magnetic if the possibilty of colloid
formation were inherent. This water could then be used
for experiments where both the electric and magnetic
fields from 480 hz alternator inductor resonances are
interfaced orthogonally.

Thanx for any answers from the cold fusion community.
I am imagining that no nickle colloid formations will
be possible, but just thought I'd ask first before
trying it.

Incidentally it seems to make a lot of sense to me,
that the spatial reaction of fields in resonance could
aid the efficiency of electrolysis. The magnetic and
electric fields in a resonance are essentially
"borrowed and returned" energies. We are somewhat
"brainwashed" by electrical terminologies to "assume"
that the concept of borrowed and returned energies
only exist in a reactive current situation.
Because in resonance we are "cancelling" the reactive
currents; this does in no way imply that we are also
cancelling the amount of "borrowed and returned"
energy expression. In fact it is the opposite
situation, instead we have enhanced the amount of
borrowed and returned energy according to the acting q
factor of the coil being resonated.

Sincerely HDN





=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 11:04:18 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Possibility of Nickel Colloids?
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:21:13 -0500
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Hi Harvey.

Sure, most metals can be formed in a highly
divided state. For colloidal nickle, your
best bet may be to start with nickel carbonyl,
which is a gas. Reducing the gas will
result in a very finely divided nickel.
I kind of doubt you can use the same
technique as you do with silver, but I've
never tried it, so tell us what happens.
I suspect you'll just split water, or
if there is chloride ion in the water
you'll get a little nickel chloride.

BTW if you work with the carbonyl, BE
VERY CAREFUL. If you breathe the gas
you will end up with nickle plated lungs,
very bad I can assure you.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Harvey Norris [mailto:harvich yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 1:40 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Possibility of Nickel Colloids?


I have been making Colloidal Silver Water for some
time now by the process of a Bipolar Series Resonance
of large induction coils, used with a variac
regulation to limit the current down to 1.2 ma, so
that excessive amounts of silver peroxide do not form
on the coins. A 'current limited' approach was
advocated by the members of the silver list, a
discussion group of people making CS.

Teslafy Homepage has a couple of articles on this.
(March 11 & 13)

I understand that stainless steel seems to offer no
deposits of metals into a solution. Does anyone know
if silver is "unique" to making colloidal solutions?
I would like to try the same process using Canadian
Nickle quarters, which are magnetic.

This would give a water solution that might appear
slightly magnetic if the possibilty of colloid
formation were inherent. This water could then be used
for experiments where both the electric and magnetic
fields from 480 hz alternator inductor resonances are
interfaced orthogonally.

Thanx for any answers from the cold fusion community.
I am imagining that no nickle colloid formations will
be possible, but just thought I'd ask first before
trying it.

Incidentally it seems to make a lot of sense to me,
that the spatial reaction of fields in resonance could
aid the efficiency of electrolysis. The magnetic and
electric fields in a resonance are essentially
"borrowed and returned" energies. We are somewhat
"brainwashed" by electrical terminologies to "assume"
that the concept of borrowed and returned energies
only exist in a reactive current situation.
Because in resonance we are "cancelling" the reactive
currents; this does in no way imply that we are also
cancelling the amount of "borrowed and returned"
energy expression. In fact it is the opposite
situation, instead we have enhanced the amount of
borrowed and returned energy according to the acting q
factor of the coil being resonated.

Sincerely HDN





=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 11:31:24 2003
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http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

excerpting:

'A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with 
Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 
hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders 
present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian 
Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." 
Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit 
suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their 
homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. 
They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world 
had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. 
Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put 
in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear 
their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."'

<end quote>

Foxnews is reporting that the highest levels of the Iraqi command 
structure are exiting Baghdad at this time.  Let us hope that this house 
of cards will collapse and our volunteer army can roll into the city 
unopposed.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 16:52:01 2003
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 <A HREF="http://www.rock103.com/bin.html">Bend Over bin Laden</A> 

Frank Z

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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 19:48:42 EST
Subject: Ben Laden game real fun
To: aherbein floodcity.net, creigh@uplink.net, EFOUCHE@satx.rr.com (E.F.),
	Crazysuez aol.com, georgegt@juno.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com,
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 <A HREF="http://www.rock103.com/bin.html">Bend Over bin Laden</A> 

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 22 23:56:41 2003
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I ponyed up $25 and purchased POPMonitor 2.1 filter software. I guess 
I should have used the filters in my Eudora, but this little gem lets 
me bounce the spam back at the bastards. I have this new expression, 
block and bounce, it kind of reminds me of lock and load.

I just heard about that traitorous bastard who  helped the locals in 
the gernade attack, on his fellow soldiers. I hope that they give him 
a trial before they shoot him!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 23 02:20:54 2003
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Parksie's Damn Dam continued
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There once was a man named Parksie,
who taught physics in a universite.
Terriblie wedded was he, to the existing physics orthodoxie,
most particularly General Relativite.

Now Parksie was miffed
at the experimentalists,
whose results conflicted,
with his cherished orthodoxie

Boo hoo he sniffled,
if these results are accepted,
General Relativity will be rejected,
and then what will become of mie?

The worst of the offenders,
in this group of pretenders,
was as MD named Mills,
who should have sold pills.

But who instead spent his time,
working on a new paradigm,
which overturned the mechanics,
of quantum dynamics.

Now Dr. Mills was a man with a very grand plan,
to extract energie from the
electrons wizzing round
the hydrogen nuclie.

He accomplished this feat,
in a low pressure vessel,
with help of a metal, from the group
of metals known as the alkalie.

Now Parkie went ballistic
when he read Mill's statistics.
If this is accepted, and his plan implemented,
then this country will have free energie!

Stop him I must, and stop him I shall,
said Parksie in a righteous huff.
I'll louse up his patent and we shall see,
if he can bring his device to the marketie!

But Dr. Mill's had some good attornie,
and they prevailed in the end,
so it is obvious to all who can see,
that, try as you might, you can't stop human ingenuouitie!














From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 08:08:25 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:05:13 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Has anyone seen New Scientist?
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I went to two Atlanta bookstores, but I could not find the New Scientist. 
Has anyone seen the latest N. S.? It is the one with the mosquito on the 
cover; I am not sure what the publication date is. (You would think the web 
page would make this clear, but it does not. It is surprising how often 
people forget to put vital information on web pages.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 08:47:50 2003
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:43:47 EST
Subject: Baard's New Energy Op-Ed Essay  
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Hi All - 

I have published my first Op-Ed piece about a potential energy resource, 
space-based solar power.  It's in the Houston Chronicle, the best newspaper 
to reach "big oil" executives and space industry leaders.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1832489

The essay avoids hydrinos, cold fusion, zero point energy, etc. entirely.  
That's not to dismiss radical ideas out of hand, but to talk to the people 
about what they can do with the tools they've undeniably got.

Erik

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 10:45:19 2003
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I went to two Atlanta bookstores, but I could not find the New 
> Scientist. Has anyone seen the latest N. S.? It is the one with the 
> mosquito on the cover; I am not sure what the publication date is. 
> (You would think the web page would make this clear, but it does not. 
> It is surprising how often people forget to put vital information on 
> web pages.)


22 March 2003

Have you tried any of the local university libraries?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 11:07:46 2003
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> I went to two Atlanta bookstores, but I could not find the New 
>> Scientist. Has anyone seen the latest N. S.? It is the one with the 
>> mosquito on the cover; I am not sure what the publication date is. 
>> (You would think the web page would make this clear, but it does not. 
>> It is surprising how often people forget to put vital information on 
>> web pages.)
>
>
>
> 22 March 2003
>
> Have you tried any of the local university libraries? 


GSU subscribes although they don't list the current issue:

http://gil.gsu.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&CNT=50&Search_Arg=New+Scientist&Search_Code=JALL

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 11:18:58 2003
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>>22 March 2003
>>
>>Have you tried any of the local university libraries?
>
>GSU subscribes although they don't list the current issue:

B&N at Perimeter Mall stocks the magazine, but they do not have the current 
issue yet. They will call me when it comes in.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 11:26:55 2003
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>>> 22 March 2003
>>>
>>> Have you tried any of the local university libraries?
>>
>>
>> GSU subscribes although they don't list the current issue:
>
>
> B&N at Perimeter Mall stocks the magazine, but they do not have the 
> current issue yet. They will call me when it comes in. 


Yeah, subscribers get the issues first.  I have just now finished 
reading the articles in the April issue of "Playboy" and will look at 
the photography soon.  ;-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 11:39:04 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:35:12 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: New Scientist CF article #2 will be next week
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Okay, here is the story. This week's N.S. has a review of Bart Simon's book 
about CF "Undead Science." Next week there will be an article about CF 
featuring the Naval Research Lab. The two were originally going to appear 
together, but they have been split for some reason.

I did not see the review but someone who did says it makes the book sound 
pretty good.

Maybe next week's article will be on-line, as well as in the print edition. 
Some articles are, and some are not. All end up in the archives, but you 
have to pay to see them, as I mentioned.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 13:25:31 2003
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 3/24/03 8:05 AM, "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:

> I went to two Atlanta bookstores, but I could not find the New Scientist.
> Has anyone seen the latest N. S.? It is the one with the mosquito on the
> cover; I am not sure what the publication date is. (You would think the web
> page would make this clear, but it does not. It is surprising how often
> people forget to put vital information on web pages.)
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 


According to author Ben Daviss, the author of the article, the article has
been pushed back to the March 29, 2003 issue of New Scientist.

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine
New Energy Foundation, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

  Ph: 603-228-4516
  Fx: 603-224-5975

   www.infinite-energy.com

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--============_-1163579047==_ma============
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I sent Hal an updated version of Parksie's Damn Dam and received the 
following reply. It truly is a good day!

>Terrific poetry!
>
>Hal

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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Hal Puthoff replies</title></head><body>
<div>I sent Hal an updated version of Parksie's Damn Dam and received
the following reply. It truly is a good day!</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Geneva" size="-1"
color="#000000">Terrific poetry!<br>
<br>
Hal</font></blockquote>
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</body>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 14:07:39 2003
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:01:23 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC Things going as expected in Iraq
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I will move this to Vortex-BL if anyone objects.

So far, things are shaping up the way President Bush predicted. I mean the 
first Pres. Bush, who warned, "assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt 
for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what 
would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part 
of the world into even greater instability." I hope things change soon, but 
here is a report from the New York Times, with my comments in square brackets:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/24/international/worldspecial/24CND-BATT.html

. . . Helicopter gunships fired rockets into the city, and residents of 
Nasiriya complained that the air raids had killed and injured scores of 
civilians.

The Marines countered that the Iraqis were using civilians as shields, 
pushing women and children into the streets to drive up the civilian body 
count. They also said Iraqi men were leaping out of the buses and taxis to 
shoot at them.

[Just like they said they would.]


. . . Necessary as it may have been, today's battle was hardly the sort of 
warfare that American commanders had envisioned to persuade the Iraqi 
population of America's good intentions. . . .

[Yes, that is why the Iraqi army is doing this, obviously.]


. . . For American commanders, winning the war means destroying the Baghdad 
government, but it also includes a concerted effort to avoid the kind of 
urban fighting that might enrage the Iraqi people.

"No Iraqi will support what the Americans are doing here," said a man at an 
American checkpoint at the city limits who gave his name as Nawaf. "If they 
want to go to Baghdad, that's one thing, but now they have come into our 
cities, and all Iraqis will fight them."

[Baghdad is also an Iraqi city, and they will use the same tactics there. 
This was clear to Bush Sr. and to me years ago. If the U.S. Army has no 
plans to overcome this problem, this war will be a disaster, even if the 
U.S. wins in a month or two with few casualties. The idea that "shock and 
awe" would have an effect was straight of a comic strip. How can you 
"shock" a government that casually slaughtered a million people in the war 
with Iran?]

Additional comments by me:

History shows that nations are never happy to be liberated, by the U.S. or 
anyone else, even after they plead for help. The French have never gotten 
over their humiliation in 1940. In Kuwait a recent poll showed that 70% of 
adults consider Bin Laden "a hero." Many Japanese people still feel deeply 
antagonistic toward the U.S., even those who were born after 1945. In the 
U.S. South, many white people still resent the U.S. army tactics in 1864, 
although I have never met or read of a single black person who objected to 
them. Most black people at the time were thrilled to see Atlanta burned and 
Georgia sacked. However -- here is key point -- many of them or their sons 
had joined the Union Army, so they were part of the invading army. So they 
were in favor of the invasion, even though it was their home . . . sort of. 
They were not allowed to leave or own property so it was not a "home" in 
the normal sense. The point is, they were superb fighters, and the Union 
would not have won without them. In January 1863, even before the 
Emancipation Proclamation, black loyalist troops in South Georgia and 
Florida won decisive victories that made a big difference to the war 
effort. (They were not strictly "loyalist" yet because the U.S. did not 
recognize them as citizens at the time.) Based on this and many other 
historical precedents, the only reasonable plan I can think of to conquer 
Iraq would be to raise and equip an army of Iraqi people. I assumed the 
U.S. was doing this, as they appear to be doing in northern Iraq. I also 
assume that generals in the army know a lot more military history than I 
do, and they would know this sort of thing. But sometimes experts make 
terrible mistakes.

It is bad enough to blunder into a war, but to blunder into one with no 
realistic expectation of the enemy's likely tactics and no plan grounded in 
history that is likely to overcome those tactics is outrageous and 
unprofessional. Knowledge of history will give a military or civilian 
leader more power than $100 billion worth of high-tech weapons.

- Jed 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 14:24:35 2003
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Subject: ON TOPIC! War, fuel, logistics
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See:

"Fuel is Limiting Factor in Rush Toward Baghdad"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13930-2003Mar23.html

Petroleum has been the determining factor in war since it displaced coal as 
the primary fuel in 1918. Many key WWII battles and attacks were intended 
to interdict fuel supplies or destroy refineries. Petroleum shortages were 
perhaps the largest single technical weakness in Germany and Japan, 
according to Albert Speer and other experts who knew best. (See D. Yergin, 
"The Prize.")

If a CF engine could be made reliable with high power density, it 
would  render every military truck, tank, airplane and ship obsolete, as 
decisively as the ironclad Monitor and Merrimac did in 1862. If CF engines 
cannot be made compact at first, they might be used in an intermediate 
role. In the 1950s the U.S. investigated the use of small fission reactors 
to produce hydrogen fuel for vehicles at sites close battlefields, using 
local sources of water. A CF reactor would be much better choice, since it 
would be lighter and less dangerous in the event of an accident or enemy 
attack.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 15:42:13 2003
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Subject: Re: Has anyone seen New Scientist?
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>According to author Ben Daviss, the author of the article, the article has
>been pushed back to the March 29, 2003 issue of New Scientist.

I think it definitely will be there. It is listed in the paper magazine in 
"next week's articles." CF insiders have known about the article for some 
time, but they have kept it confidential because they feared someone like 
Park might hear about it and pressure the N.S. editors to scuttle the 
article. Now that it has been announced for next week I doubt that will happen.

- Jed


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:18:34 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>>>>   > The problem with this scenario is that Pd110 is already .89 MeV
>>>>more stable than Ag110.
>>>
>>>What does the .89 Me V more stable mean?
>>
>>It means that the difference in mass between Ag110 and Pd110 (i.e. 
>>Ag110 - Pd110) is (0.89 MeV)/c^2. IOW, Ag110 is a little heavier 
>>than Pd110, so if you want to turn Pd110 into Ag110, then you have 
>>to add enough energy to create the extra mass.
>
>Hum, do you mean that it doesn't capture a particle? IYHO, what 
>accounts for the increase in mass?

Nothing. The reaction doesn't happen because extra mass would be needed to make it happen. That's why I said above that there was a problem with that scenario.



Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 18:19:56 2003
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March 24, 2003

Vortex,,

The ICCF-10 is due to start on August 24, 2003. That is about five
months from now..
With the world situation the way it is, the question arises of what
number of participants will be able to attend, internationally..
A very recent issue of C&EN magazine, and other publications before,
wrote about the increasing difficulties that: "Foreign students,
scientists, and business people cannot obtain U.S. visas on time, if at
all."
This difficult situation rose quite rapidly after 9-11 amid concerns
about "homeland security".
Now ever more with the war situation, obtaining visas to the U.S. is
even more stringent, more so for visitors from countries the U.S.
considers marginal or hostile to our national interests.
So, I think it behooves the organizers of the ICCF-10 to send out
immediate notices to prospective attendees to start their visa
application NOW to visit the U.S. so that there may be a good chance of
obtaining their VISAS in time. For starters, past ICCF organizers have
sent notices to past attendees of the upcoming Conference.
Otherwise, perhaps it may make more sense to extend the date for the
conference till later, like when the oil runs out? : )
I intend to attend.

-AK-

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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:44:30 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Hi,
>
>RvS " x-ray studies of Pd110 reveal that the binding energy of the inner electron is about 24 keV" 
>
>Yes. This is why it seems unlikely to me that any hydrino can ever reach a Pd nucleus, or even get past the inner orbitals. 

Hydrino-hydride (i.e. a hydrino with an extra electron), is both heavy and negatively charged. As it "falls" toward another nucleus, energy is released,
which compensates for the energy required to displace an existing electron.
In fact if the hydrino-hydride orbit has a smaller radius that that of the inner electrons, then more energy is released by the "in fall" than is required to displace the one electron, that the hydrino-hydride charge demands.

>
>Correction, any hydrino, that is, whose ionization potential is not greater than 24 keV will not get past the k-shell. If a hydrino has a higher IP than that, one must demonstrate a way that such hydrinos are being formed in quantity, rather than just adding another layer of unproven conjecture.

Once hydrinos form, they stay formed. Therefore it is only necessary to keep them localised long enough to ensure that they shrink to ever smaller sizes.
(Though the smaller they get, the lower the reaction cross section for shrinkage, hence the process would tend to slow as they get smaller).
They can only really escape once they get below n=1/24, because that's when they can no longer hold on to an extra electron, and are forced to remain neutral. Being small and neutral they could in theory escape through solid matter, providing they don't undergo a fusion reaction along the way.

>
>Although un-ionized hydrinos, like all atoms, are net neutral in charge, they express an intense negatively charged near-field that will strongly interact with any atoms' electron cloud, don't you agree?

Yes, but that isn't a problem. Neutrons have just such a charge distribution,
and they wander through atoms almost with impunity.
Furthermore negative muons also have no problems displacing regular electrons and forming muonic molecules.

>
>How do you propose to overcome this?

See above.

>
>RvS: "Since such studies constitute a serious and sudden "charge alteration" of the inner electrons, and to my knowledge no one has ever claimed to have brought about transmutation during such studies, I don't think this kite will fly."
>
>Perhaps it won't, but a charge alteration brought on by the temporary (picosecond )removal of a k-shell electron, IMHO doesn't constitute a serious and sudden alteration, as it is quickly replaced through an Auger cascade, and is a far cry from the appearance of a positively charged proton inside the k-shell.

It wouldn't be a positively charged proton. It would be a negatively charged
heavy particle, that the resident electrons would stay well away from.
 
>
>I would think the difference between these two would be overwhelming. The charge effect of a positively-charged proton, at the k-shell orbital distance, might be billions of times more significant than the temporary displacement of one of the electrons.

Actually it would be of about the same significance, because both carry charge of the same magnitude, however this is irrelevant in this case, because the proton isn't the subject of discussion.
[snip]
>> This I don't follow. Pd may only have a single energy hole, but that just means that it can only shrink hydrinos/deuterinos one level at a time.
>
>Perhaps so, perhaps not. 
>
>In all of the Mills' literature, multi-step shrinkage has never been studied in detail. Although I am personally convinced in the basic hydrino concept, i.e. that some level of redundant ground state hydrino has been found, AND proven, through clear and convincing spectroscopy evidence, I won't go that extra step yet: the higher level shrinkage HAS NOT been demonstrated yet. I hope it will be, but let's not go that far until it has.

Argon is a one step catalyst. If you can find spectroscopic evidence of higher hydrinos levels in an experiment in which argon was the catalyst, then you have the evidence you seek.
(Mills has several papers in which Ar was used).

>
>Robin, think about it, if hydrinos were really available at very high level redundant states (high IP), let's say greater than 1 keV of IP, just think about how easy those hydrinos would be to demonstrated convincingly. Unlike EUV which is the radiation spectra from lower states, the radiation from x-rays is NOT universally absorbed, in fact such radiation is hard to disguise and many of us have GM monitors capable of detecting this spectrum.

Actually the energy of the x-rays generated would only be a few keV, and not so easily detected (as x-rays) as you seem to think. These energy levels are basically too low for GM devices, and perhaps best detected using fluorescence, however the latter will also detect EUV.
Note that the energy of individual x-rays depends on the difference in energy between succeeding shrinkage levels. This is of course greater for catalysts
with higher m values. For an m value of 1, the maximum is about 2 keV (see the third graph on my web page at http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html), and this is not reached until extreme shrinkage levels (p~=100). (Note in the graph, "q" is used iso "p").

>
>With higher level shrinkage, x-rays of that intensity just can't be hidden, yet - can you cite a reference to keV level emission from a BLP plasma? I wish it were true, but I don't think so...Multi-level shrinkage IMHO seems to be little more than supposition, even if you buy into the hydrino at EUV levels. Mills shows us plenty of EUV spectroscopy, which is convincing, but NO x-ray spectroscopy, which is FAR easier from the standpoint of available lab equipment. 

See above.

>
>Furthermore, as to the relevance of the hydrino to CF phenomena, If you look closely at all of the range of catalysts and the results that Mills gets, I find NO robust results unless a catalyst is employed that will easily form a 54.4 eV or greater hole, like helium, Ni, Sr or K. Please correct me, and cite if you know of a detailed study of multistep shrinkage, disproportionation, with single step catalysts, as this could be a critical limitation for applying Mills' theory to palladium CF. I can find none.

See my point above re. Ar. As for disproportionation, the only evidence I can see is that Mills occasionally finds spectroscopic evidence for even numbered 
shrinkage levels when employing catalysts with an even m value. If the catalyst alone were responsible for the shrinkage, then only odd numbered levels should result (assuming that the "ground state" is level number 1).

> 
>RvS> This isn't necessary. A negative muon is about 200 times heavier than an electron, and consequently takes up an "orbit" about 200 times closer to the nucleus than an electron. 
>
>ONLY if it can get past the k-shell to begin with.

See discussion above.
[snip]
>Mills states without any proof that once catalysis begins, hydrinos can autocatalyze further in a process he sometimes calls "disproportionation," which is to say that lower-energy hydrogen atoms, hydrinos, can act as a source of energy holes that can cause transition reactions because the energies of excitation and/or ionization by nonradiative mechanisms are multiples of 27.2 eV. 
>
>It could be true, or it could be a cop-out. AFAIK this is just his conjecture, nothing more, and we must remove it from the actual proof that Mills has offered in his EUV spectroscopy for low step shrinkage. 

See above.

>
>> Any Mills catalyst present would do the job, including Pd itself, or K.
>> (Which BTW has an "m" of 3.)
>
>Many CF electrolytes don't use K, and even if they did, what on earth is going to remove ALL three electron from one atoms' orbital at the same time. I find that preposterous, using only a few volts of DC as input.

They don't need to be removed. The catalyst is K metal. To form the metal atom, the K+ ion needs only to pick up an electron at the cathode.

The shrinkage reaction is:

H + K -> H[n=1/4] + K+++ + 3e- (excess energy ignored)

Then later the K+++ can reacquire electrons from the electrolyte.
(Note that H is also formed at the cathode, as H+ ions acquire an electron).

>
>I hope you can clarify this for me in detail (at the level of the Pd atom). Since Mills has refused to acknowledge CF at all, and I don't know where else the "particulars" of his theory wrt CF are being discussed.

I'm doing my best. I hope it is adequate.
 
>
>BTW, since you are a big proponent of this cross-over, have you considered starting a forum just for that narrow area (i.e. the hydrino as the basis for CF)? Maybe Horace would join us as resident skeptic?

I doubt there would be enough traffic, and I don't really feel up to it, and I doubt Horace would want to be the resident sceptic either, though I'm sure he can speak for himself. Besides, I think it fits on vortex quite nicely.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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Subject: Re: Baard's New Energy Op-Ed Essay On Space Based Solar Power
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, aelewis@provide.net, newsonline@bbc.co.uk,
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In a message dated 3/24/2003 11:47:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Erikbaard aol.com writes:

> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1832489

Great Idea.  If we use airships, posted at http://www.airship.com/, instead 
of satellites, which can stay afloat for up to five years, then solar power, 
may be even less expensive, more reliable, and more practical. 

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/24/2003 11:47:54 AM Eastern Stand=
ard Time, Erikbaard aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/sto=
ry.hts/editorial/outlook/1832489</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Great Idea.&nbsp; If we use airships, posted at http://www.airship.com/, ins=
tead of satellites, which can stay afloat for up to five years, then solar p=
ower, may be even less expensive, more reliable, and more practical. <BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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	This is like putting the horse beside the cart....



On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 ConexTom aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/24/2003 11:47:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Erikbaard aol.com writes:
> 
> > http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1832489
> 
> Great Idea.  If we use airships, posted at http://www.airship.com/, instead 
> of satellites, which can stay afloat for up to five years, then solar power, 
> may be even less expensive, more reliable, and more practical. 
> 
> Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
> President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
> New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 24 19:27:23 2003
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	What is this article to be about?

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> On 3/24/03 8:05 AM, "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > I went to two Atlanta bookstores, but I could not find the New Scientist.
> > Has anyone seen the latest N. S.? It is the one with the mosquito on the
> > cover; I am not sure what the publication date is. (You would think the web
> > page would make this clear, but it does not. It is surprising how often
> > people forget to put vital information on web pages.)
> > 
> > - Jed
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> According to author Ben Daviss, the author of the article, the article has
> been pushed back to the March 29, 2003 issue of New Scientist.
> 
> Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
> Infinite Energy Magazine
> New Energy Foundation, Inc.
> PO Box 2816
> Concord, NH 03302-2816
> 
>   Ph: 603-228-4516
>   Fx: 603-224-5975
> 
>    www.infinite-energy.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 25 01:14:59 2003
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 03:11:15 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
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>In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:44:30 -0800:
>
>  >
>>RvS " x-ray studies of Pd110 reveal that the binding energy of the 
>>inner electron is about 24 keV"
>>
>>Yes. This is why it seems unlikely to me that any hydrino can ever 
>>reach a Pd nucleus, or even get past the inner orbitals.

Hum, this is an interesting discussion. are you saying that the 
electron has an inherent energy of 24 keV? Then if we could somehow 
accelerate the hydrino to a similar energy then it would initiate a 
rection? I've previously mentioned Frank Zinadirecks' posting about 
moving protrons down a wire, could hydrino's be similarly manipulated 
and accelerated?

>
>Hydrino-hydride (i.e. a hydrino with an extra electron), is both 
>heavy and negatively charged. As it "falls" toward another nucleus, 
>energy is released,

This is something that Mills' cooked up? I noticed that he's 
experimenting with various chemical reactions. I suggested to one of 
my engineer friends that they might be useful in producing a harder 
steel surface.

What is the hydrino with an extra electron? How does that work?

>
>They can only really escape once they get below n=1/24, because 
>that's when they can no longer hold on to an extra electron, and are 
>forced to remain neutral. Being small

Is this extra electron something that the hydrino inherently attracts?
>
>Yes, but that isn't a problem. Neutrons have just such a charge distribution,
>and they wander through atoms almost with impunity.

This sounds like they would be rather difficult to contain.

>Furthermore negative muons also have no problems displacing regular 
>electrons and forming muonic molecules.

These negative muons, do they occur naturally, or do they have to be created?

>
>Argon is a one step catalyst. If you can find spectroscopic evidence 
>of higher hydrinos levels in an experiment in which argon was the 
>catalyst, then you have the evidence

Do the hydrinos react with they Argon?
>
>further in a process he sometimes calls "disproportionation," which 
>is to say that lower-energy hydrogen atoms, hydrinos, can act as a 
>source of energy holes that can

disproportionation, I've got to figure out what that means.

>  >BTW, since you are a big proponent of this cross-over, have you 
>considered starting a forum just for that narrow area (i.e. the 
>hydrino as the basis for CF)? Maybe Horace would join us as resident 
>skeptic?
>
I agree.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 25 01:14:59 2003
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Keith Nagel posted;
BTW if you work with the carbonyl, BE VERY CAREFUL. If you breathe the gas
you will end up with nickle plated lungs, very bad I can assure you.

This reminds me that carbonless copies will express Ni carbonyl too. 
Very bad stuff, As I recall it doesn't take very much of it to kill 
you.

Those of you who have followed my postings have noticed that I have a 
black sense of humor. My latest bit of levity concerns that kinder 
gentler side of Sodamn Insane. He found it necessary, at least in his 
own mind, to purge the Bathist Party. Now these men were his friends, 
with friends like that, you don't need any enemies. So he had them 
dragged out and shot. He felt so bad about the impending death of his 
friends, that he cried. This must be his sister, who lives in his 
head expressing herself. The only thing that more sick than that is 
forcing your 13 year old son to shoot them in the head.

I can relate to that, my sister can bring tears to our eyes too.

The Savage started all this with the monk joke. This guy was on an 
expedition with this monk, The first evening he pulled out a flask of 
wine. He asked the monk if he wanted any, The monk replied that he 
was a tea totalier, but that Joseph would like a drink. He then took 
the flask and drained it. The next night he cooked up a lamb. He 
asked the monk if he would like some, the monk replied that he was a 
vegitarian, but that Joseph would like some meat, he then proceeded 
to eat an entire leg of the lamb. When the man inquired of the monk 
about Joseph, the monk replied that he was the evil force that was in 
him. Hum, he must have been abused as a child too.

What makes all of this insanity possible is what I call disconnects, 
they allow you to have conflicting ideas in your head, and not go 
crazy. OTOH, if you need disconnects in your head, the case for your 
insanity can be made.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 25 01:15:18 2003
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 03:11:15 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Chemistry Behind Miracle II Products
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My coresearcher in aging amelioration, Phil sent me this one. I 
assume that it falls under the heading of CANR's.

>Hello Tom!
>
>This is what I left the phone message about.  This excerpt is found at
>the bottom of the attached email:
>
>"The other half of this energy producing mechanisms within the body
>involving Miracle II that is not currently recognized by western
>physiology and biochemistry is plasma discharge charge cluster dynamics.
>The human body is largely composed of water. The body fluids contain
>quantities of electrolyte and soluble trace minerals. We know that water
>can be used as a fuel when water is split into hydrogen and oxygen and
>recombined to yield heat, light and water once again. Water is usually
>split by electrolysis in a fuel cell. Science is now realizing that
>plasma charge cluster dynamics and elemental transformations are taking
>place in minerals in the water and in the cell electrodes. Literally
>forming highly energetic transformed mineral charge clusters. We know
>that chemical electrolysis takes place in the body all the time. Many
>fuel cells use surfactants in the water to help with the reaction. As an
>experiment we placed some Miracle II Neutralizer in an open 9V
>electrolysis cell to see what happened. The electrolytic reaction
>increased by a power of 10 over a normal cation and pH matched alkaline
>electrolyte! We don't know if what was out-gassing off the electrodes
>was only hydrogen and oxygen and we do not know if this electrochemical
>reaction is going on in the body. We do know that the manufacturer's
>process involves charge clustering and reformation of the surfactant and
>minerals in the water. It could very well be that when the body's
>chemical electrolysis process is combined with the charge clustered
>reformed surfactant, efficiencies may increase several fold. This would
>also explain the detoxification effects. Toxic chemicals would literally
>be broken down and transformed into benign or usable beneficial
>byproducts by the action of the charge clusters. We do know that in the
>agriculture of very healthy desert plants that the plants have been
>observed to give off water even during the hottest (high solar radiation
>capable of generating charge clusters within the plant thus increasing
>chemical electrolysis) and most dry part of the day. Science now knows
>that most of the energy that drives these charge cluster plasmoids comes
>from outside the system. Their field and spin dynamics polarize the
>vacuum and pull energy in from the space matrix. Consequently they
>become self-regenerative charge structures that pick up and hold mineral
>ions in their centers. At a finer level this is the way that subatomic
>particles and atoms are formed from the space matrix vacuum---zero point
>energy. Biophysicists now recognize that the classical explanation of
>the mechanics of cellular sodium-potassium pump energy production is
>incorrect. This mechanism was never more than a theory, but was always
>presented as fact. The problem was, no one could figure out how sodium
>always went into the cell and potassium always came out The classical
>explanation of the materials balance replenishment cycle is not
>feasible. A mechanism is readily available, if we look to research
>results stemming from cold fusion experiments. It is through an
>electrostatic trans-membrane potential difference known as
>electro-insertion. The only way this could happen is if the sodium were
>transformed into potassium by charge cluster dynamics within the cell
>and consequently kicked out of the cell, thus drawing in another sodium
>ion in the process!
>If this were not happening, we would be dead, dead, dead!
>--THE LIVING CELL IS A MINIATURE COLD FUSION NUCLEAR REACTOR CAPABLE OF
>ELEMENTAL TRANSFORMATlONS THAT NET EXCESS ENERGY BACK TO THE LIVING
>SYSTEM! ONLY GOD COULD HAVE ENGINEERED THIS AND ONLY GOD CAN IMPROVE ON
>IT!
>
>
>http://www.miraclell.com/chemistry.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 25 06:11:17 2003
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Thomas writes:
>This reminds me that carbonless copies will express Ni carbonyl too. 
>Very bad stuff, As I recall it doesn't take very much of it to kill 
>you.

Indeed. It is also emitted by cows, and as most of us know
is the major cause of global warming. The liberal media
would have us believe that cars and factories are responsible
for this, pure crazy talk I tell ya. 

>What makes all of this insanity possible is what I call disconnects, 
>they allow you to have conflicting ideas in your head, and not go 
>crazy. OTOH, if you need disconnects in your head, the case for your 
>insanity can be made.

Yup. Proof positive that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

K.

PS: If you should happen to call Mr. Savages radio program, please
tell him that his old friend Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the rest
of the boys at City Lights Bookstore in SF want to know if he's
shown that great picture of himself skinny dipping in the Amazon
with Allen Ginsberg to his new friends. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 25 07:26:56 2003
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Subject: Re: Baard's New Energy Op-Ed Essay  
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An interesting article! I did not realize space power was so promising. The 
idea has been around for a long time, but it has been considered far too 
expensive to be practical.

Erik: Can you fill in a few details not discussed in the article? Do you 
have any rough estimates for the following:

How many MW would this initial $22 billion installation produce?

Any idea what the cost per KW and KWH might be? It would be unfair to 
expect it to compete with coal or wind in the first installation.

How much land area would the collector take up for this installation, using 
microwaves? I do not think lasers would be environmentally safe. For that 
matter, I would not want to live under a constant barrage of low level 
microwaves amounting to 1000 MW over 100 square kilometers. I doubt these 
installations can be built close to populated areas. That means they may 
have the same problem as a massive wind farm in North Dakota would: you 
can't get the electricity to the customers. Hydrogen gas pipelines may be 
the solution, but if we must have pipelines anyway, I expect massive wind 
farms would be cheaper than satellite power, at least in North America and 
Northern Europe.

- Jed


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Test.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 25 11:46:33 2003
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:39:49 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC ITN reports uprising in Basra
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For people who get their news from Vortex . . .

The latest from CNN: "British troops say popular uprising against Saddam in 
second-largest city of Basra, ITN reporter says"

ITN is generally reliable in my experience.

This is our best hope for a clean victory and a lasting peace. As I said 
yesterday, people resent being freed by other nations, no matter how noble 
the liberator's intentions may be. If the Iraqi people rise up now and take 
the lead in this war, and liberate their own country with U.S. help, there 
is great hope for the future.

- Jed


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I wrote:

>For that matter, I would not want to live under a constant barrage of low 
>level microwaves amounting to 1000 MW over 100 square kilometers. I doubt 
>these installations can be built close to populated areas.

Perhaps I misjudged that. On second thought, the distance from a populated 
area would be function of:

1. The size and reliability of the beam focussing. If the microwave beam 
fluctuates ~0.5 km by the time it reaches earth, then you need a ~1 km 
boundary around the collection area.

2. Land values where the collector is located. Land outside of Dallas is 
probably cheaper than land close to Washington or Atlanta, so a collector 
might be located within ~50 km of Dallas, even though the collector takes 
up a lot of space and the land is not safe to live on.

If the collectors could be located at any large, fairly empty location they 
would be more flexible and more widely applicable than wind farms or 
hydroelectricity. Baard's description said the microwave beams would not 
hurt anyone, but I doubt that people would want to risk long term exposure. 
I sure wouldn't. On the other hand, I would not mind driving down a highway 
through the collection area, or spending 50 hours a year there harvesting 
crops.

Baard said, "because the energy being sopped up for the grid would be 
outside the visible bandwidth, the land beneath them would still be 
valuable for manufacturing and agriculture." I do not see how that would 
work. Would the collectors be widely spaced mesh structures, like gigantic 
radars? If they resembled the Arecibo radio telescope receiver, it would be 
too shady under them to grow crops, I think.

Some people have proposed that space-based microwave collectors might be 
designed to intercept by microwaves and visible light, doubling as solar 
collectors. At night and in stormy weather their production would fall, but 
it would not fall to zero the way pure solar arrays do.

- Jed


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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:13:26 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC How the British win wars
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Here is how the British win wars:

http://www.itv.com/news/466525.html

". . . The public revolt was one of the British force's main objectives and 
undercover intelligence officers have been working in the port city for 
weeks trying to foment exactly this kind of unrest.

The disorder gave the troops of the 7th Armoured Brigade - the famous 
Desert Rats - the perfect opportunity to move into the city and take 
control of a battleground whose capture is vital to the allies. . . ."

For more information, see the book "Bodyguard of Lies."

- Jed


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Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC How the British win wars
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:22:11 -0500
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In other news...

Much to the surprise of our boys at the front,
George Bush has appeared in Iraq to personally
lead the 3rd Infantry into battle.

http://www.onion.com/onion3911/bush_bravely_leads.html

"I used to be cynical about politicians who are born
 into privilege and wealth. I thought, 'Sure, they
 talk a good game about our duty to protect democracy,
 but when push comes to shove, they'd rather send off
 the nation's poor, uneducated, and underprivileged to
 do the fighting for them,'" said Pvt. Frank Elkins, 19.
 "I always figured they'd rather see somebody else die
 in some foreign land than make that sacrifice themselves.
 But now I know I was wrong."


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 4:13 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: OFF TOPIC How the British win wars


Here is how the British win wars:

http://www.itv.com/news/466525.html

". . . The public revolt was one of the British force's main objectives and
undercover intelligence officers have been working in the port city for
weeks trying to foment exactly this kind of unrest.

The disorder gave the troops of the 7th Armoured Brigade - the famous
Desert Rats - the perfect opportunity to move into the city and take
control of a battleground whose capture is vital to the allies. . . ."

For more information, see the book "Bodyguard of Lies."

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 26 07:04:45 2003
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In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:59:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:

> Some people have proposed that space-based microwave collectors might be 
> designed to intercept by microwaves and visible light, doubling as solar 
> collectors. At night and in stormy weather their production would fall, but 
> 
> it would not fall to zero the way pure solar arrays do.

Rather than using solar arrays in space to collect cosmic energies, we only 
need to widen the rage of the solar cells, to include capturing photon 
energies from the full spectrum of cosmic energy, to collect all the hidden 
cosmic energies on Earth locally in solar cells both during the day and 
night.   We need to be able to produce energy locally on Earth in each town, 
since any international organization can control outer space in warfare and 
in peace, and monopolize or cut off energy from outer space.

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: tom rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:59:11 PM Eastern Standa=
rd Time, JedRothwell mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Some people have proposed that=20=
space-based microwave collectors might be <BR>
designed to intercept by microwaves and visible light, doubling as solar <BR=
>
collectors. At night and in stormy weather their production would fall, but=20=
<BR>
it would not fall to zero the way pure solar arrays do.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Rather than using solar arrays in space to collect cosmic energies, we only=20=
need to widen the rage of the solar cells, to include capturing photon energ=
ies from the full spectrum of cosmic energy, to collect all the hidden cosmi=
c energies on Earth locally in solar cells both during the day and night.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; We need to be able to produce energy locally on Earth in each town=
, since any international organization can control outer space in warfare an=
d in peace, and monopolize or cut off energy from outer space.<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
, Email: tom rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas D. Clark, tom rhfweb.com, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\persona=
l">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
New Age Production Inc., <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\ne=
wage</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_7a.3c0dee3b.2bb31ac2_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 26 08:58:22 2003
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From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" <slawrence pobox.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> For people who get their news from Vortex . . .
> 
> The latest from CNN: "British troops say popular uprising against Saddam 
> in second-largest city of Basra, ITN reporter says"
> 
> ITN is generally reliable in my experience.

I've been following the news on this since it was first mentioned
(yesterday?) and unfortunately, it doesn't sound very real.

Al Jazeera has one or more reporters inside Basra and they report all is
quiet.  There was apparently some single limited disturbance, but since
then, nothing -- and certainly nothing that could be called an uprising.

So where did the "uprising" report come from?  Well, after poking around
at a few places I ran across a story (on Reuters? don't recall) that
indicated that it came from British reporters who were OUTSIDE the city.
  So, they presumably reported in good faith what they thought was going
on, but they were not exactly on top of the events at the time.  The
British military has also described a single incident in which a single
mortar round was apparently fired at a crowd within Basra -- but there
doesn't seem to be any evidence that anything more happened, and again,
things seem to have been very quiet ever since.  In other words, there
seems to have been an unhappy and/or unruly group of folks making some
trouble some time yesterday(?), and Iraqi military reacted in a
typically hamhanded way with a round from a mortar, and everybody's been
keeping their heads down since.  And the original report's been quoted
all over the web without anything new coming along to substantiate the
idea that it's a full scale revolt.

So, I hope the Brits are right and Al Jazeera is wrong, but I wouldn't
hold my breath waiting for the uprising to bring down Basra for us.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 26 09:53:48 2003
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In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message :

“Hydrino-hydride (i.e. a hydrino with an extra electron) is both heavy 
and negatively charged. As it "falls" toward another nucleus, energy is 
released, which compensates for the energy required to displace an 
existing electron.”

Hi,

I am traveling and don’t have access to my files now, but there are a 
few points that should be made here, even without adequate reference. 
According to LN condensable article by Mills, the only article that I was 
able to find that mentions actual size, the hydrino hydrides that he has 
been able to measure are slightly larger than one angstrom in 
diameter, making them less dense per cubic area than hydrogen. What 
do you mean by “heavy”? Does that imply that they have a higher 
sp.gravity than H? Even the diameter formula he gives indicates that 
the diameter of the hydrino hydrides is to be based on the 
corresponding  hydrogen negative ion, not on the uncharged atom or 
Bohr radius, and  these ions are huge compared to H, so the size of a 
hydrino hydride can’t ever get very small, can it? If so, why can’t Mills 
find the small ones?

Moreover, since hydrino hydrides are negatively charged, how do they 
get into inner orbitals of metals like Pd in the first place? There is just

no way! One just doesn’t casually “displace an existing electron with a 
much larger particle.”

RvS “In fact if the hydrino-hydride orbit has a smaller radius that that of

the inner electrons, then more energy is released by the "in fall" than is 

required to displace the one electron, that the hydrino-hydride charge 
demands.”

Even if this were true (and Mills himself offers no proof that it is) the 
hydrino hydride still must somehow get inside the inner orbital to begin 
with…how is this accomplished? One doesn’t just “displace” inner 
orbitals. Those electrons in fact shield the nucleus. They are very tightly

bound and NO negatively charged, large un-accelerated particle is 
going to get in there. Muons are billions of times smaller than hydrino 
hydrides.

RvS “Once hydrinos form, they stay formed.”

Huh? The reaction isn’t reversible? Where does Mills state this in the 
recent revision of CQM? I believe this view has been abandoned, if it 
was ever his view at all, as I have scanned the new 2003 revision and 
cannot find this statement.  If it were true, then why would he  mention 
ionization potentials at all? See Table 5.1 page 238, all of the hydrinos 
have binding energy and that energy deficit will ensure that the 
reaction is reversible.

RvS “Therefore it is only necessary to keep them localized long 
enough to ensure that they shrink to ever smaller sizes.”

What evidence is there for smaller shrinkage? There is plenty of 
evidence for one or two redundant ground states in the spectroscopy 
data, but where is the evidence for extreme shrinkage (greater than 1/
3)? Does one have to buy into the whole theory, or could it be possible 
that Mills got a few things right and many things wrong?

RvS “(Though the smaller they get, the lower the reaction cross section 
for shrinkage, hence the process would tend to slow as they get 
smaller).”

How do you know this? Is it just part of the theory or is there real proof?


RvS “They can only really escape once they get below n=1/24, 
because that's when they can no longer hold on to an extra electron, 
and are forced to remain neutral. Being small and neutral they could in 
theory escape through solid matter, providing they don't undergo a 
fusion reaction along the way.”

Again, is this just part of the theory or is there real proof?

Although un-ionized hydrinos, like all atoms, are net neutral in charge, 
they express an intense negatively charged near-field that will strongly 
interact with any atoms' electron cloud, don't you agree?

RvS “Yes, but that isn't a problem. Neutrons have just such a charge 
distribution, and they wander through atoms almost with impunity. 
Furthermore negative muons also have no problems displacing regular 
electrons and forming muonic molecules.”

Whoa, Robin, way off. Textbooks say the neutron has no electric 
charge, and yes, it is true that it is more complicated than that. There is

evidence that the neutron is really more like a compact atom with dual 
charge instead of a particle with no charge. Neutrons, like atoms in 
general, may be electrically neutral overall but charged at different 
locations within their volumes. But the crux of the issue is the near field

at atomic distances of near one angstrom, which is approximate for Pd 
inner orbitals, and from that perspective, the neutron is neutral to one 
part in ten billion whereas a hydrino expresses an intense negative 
charge at one angstrom.

The distance between the centers of the + and - charges in the neutron 
is less than 10^-24 cm but the diameter of the neutron is about 10^-13 
cm. Therefore the ratio of the distance between the centers of charges 
to the diameter is less than 10^-11 or less than 0.000,000,000,01. 
When you compare that ratio with the negative near field of a hydrogen 
atom or a hydrino the relative difference is glaring.  Hydrogen has an 
atomic diameter of  about 10^-8 cm and its negative near field is even 
larger. The negative near field of a hydrino hydride would be at least as 
large.

RvS “It wouldn't be a positively charged proton. It would be a negatively 
charged heavy particle, that the resident electrons would stay well 
away from.”

IMHO you’ve got it totally backwards. The resident electrons would 
instead strongly repel any approaching hydrino hydride.

RvS "Actually the energy of the x-rays generated would only be a few 
keV, and not so easily detected (as x-rays) as you seem to think. These 
energy levels are basically too low for GM devices, and perhaps best 
detected using fluorescence, however the latter will also detect EUV."

They are far easier to detect than EUV and could easily be detected 
with dental film, for instance, which will not detect EUV. Dental film 
costs a few bucks a sheet and EUV spectroscopy detectors start at 
$100,000. 

I will repeat… with higher level shrinkage, x-rays of that intensity just 
can't be easily hidden....and Mills has invested millions in finding high 
energy photons, yet - can you cite a reference to keV level emission 
from a BLP plasma? 

I wish it were true, but I don't think there is any other conlcusion but that

no x-rays exist in hydrino plasmas... Multi-level shrinkage IMHO seems 
to be little more than a long-reach supposition based on a theory that is 
too broad. Even if you buy into the hydrino at EUV levels - which I do - 
there is NO, ZERO, NADA evidence for x-rays, and x-rays are indeed 
far easier to detect than EUV in the very apparatus that Mills uses!!

Mills shows us plenty of EUV spectroscopy, which is very convincing, 
but NO x-ray spectroscopy, which is FAR easier from the standpoint of 
available lab equipment... so, again, this is basically why I have grave 
doubts about higher level redundant ground states. 

All of the excess energy, the OU output, which is the important factor 
from the perspective of most vortexians, can be accounted for without 
recourse to this fiction of extreme shrinkage, so why resort to it until it
is 
proven?

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 26 11:40:12 2003
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC ITN reports uprising in Basra
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:54:27 -0500
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Hi Stephen.

A few factors are at work here.

a) We've betrayed them in the past. After GW1, Bush Sr. 
encouraged just the sort of insurrection we're asking
of them today. They readily complied, we did nothing
to support them, and the result was a wholesale slaughter
of Kurds and Shiites. The much discussed poison gas
attack in Halabja was revenge for the Kurds participation,
to give but one example. They're sitting tight now,
and thinking "If America wants to 'liberate' us they
can do the heavy lifting this time".

b) It's difficult for your average Iraqi not to say
to himself "Well you Americans have come out 
forcefully on the side of Israel in it's occupation
of Palestine. We suspect you'll treat us in a similar
fashion". As George stands firmly behind Sharon and
has abandoned peace talks in the region, it's a hard
argument to counter. Does anyone outside of the
Whitehouse seriously believe we're there to install
a democratic system in Iraq? Does ANYBODY believe
this? We're frantically and publicly negotiating
with high level members of the Baath party, whom
are being groomed to lead the new country. The
same folks who raped and murdered people under
Saddam. You connect the dots here... BTW, look
at the distribution of the population in Iraq.
Given a democracy, one man per vote, the result
will be the election of an Islamic Theocracy. And
George can count votes, of that you can be sure. Look
for an American friendly repressive government,
as what exists in most every other country in
the region. Than look for a protracted guerilla
war leading again to an Islamic Theocracy, as we
saw in Iran to provide just one example. Is
it just me, or is it beginning to look like Osama
Bin Ladin is currently running Americas foreign
policy?

c) When a foreign army invades your country and
begins shelling your city, I guarantee you that
you will pick up a gun and repel the invaders,
no matter your feelings about the current government.
Point (b) makes this situation much worse. The Germans
figured on the same thing when they invaded Russia,
would your average soviet citizen really defend 
Stalin? Well, uhmm, yeah. They did. If Iraqi tanks
came roaring up Broadway to liberate us from George,
you can bet I'd be breaking out with the pipe bombs
and the gats and building tank traps. So would you,
if you're any kind of patriot. The fact that George
and associates think otherwise speaks volumes about
their own sense of patriotism.

K. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:slawrence pobox.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:56 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC ITN reports uprising in Basra



Jed Rothwell wrote:
> For people who get their news from Vortex . . .
> 
> The latest from CNN: "British troops say popular uprising against Saddam 
> in second-largest city of Basra, ITN reporter says"
> 
> ITN is generally reliable in my experience.

I've been following the news on this since it was first mentioned
(yesterday?) and unfortunately, it doesn't sound very real.

Al Jazeera has one or more reporters inside Basra and they report all is
quiet.  There was apparently some single limited disturbance, but since
then, nothing -- and certainly nothing that could be called an uprising.

So where did the "uprising" report come from?  Well, after poking around
at a few places I ran across a story (on Reuters? don't recall) that
indicated that it came from British reporters who were OUTSIDE the city.
  So, they presumably reported in good faith what they thought was going
on, but they were not exactly on top of the events at the time.  The
British military has also described a single incident in which a single
mortar round was apparently fired at a crowd within Basra -- but there
doesn't seem to be any evidence that anything more happened, and again,
things seem to have been very quiet ever since.  In other words, there
seems to have been an unhappy and/or unruly group of folks making some
trouble some time yesterday(?), and Iraqi military reacted in a
typically hamhanded way with a round from a mortar, and everybody's been
keeping their heads down since.  And the original report's been quoted
all over the web without anything new coming along to substantiate the
idea that it's a full scale revolt.

So, I hope the Brits are right and Al Jazeera is wrong, but I wouldn't
hold my breath waiting for the uprising to bring down Basra for us.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 26 15:15:16 2003
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Keith Nagel wrote an incisive message. I would to quibble with one 
sentence, and then add another interesting example from history. He wrote:

>Point (b) makes this situation much worse. The Germans figured on the same 
>thing when they invaded Russia, would your average soviet citizen really 
>defend Stalin? Well, uhmm, yeah. They did.

Actually, according to several Americans posted to the USSR in the latter 
part of WWII, many Russian peasants welcomed the invaders at first. My 
mother said the peasants "met the Germans with bread and salt." Many 
Russians joined the German army. This is an imaginary "might-have-been" but 
if the Germans has been civil and fair to peasants, they might have won. Of 
course if they had been civil they would not have invaded in the first place!

It is interesting to note that the last time the U.S. went off on an 
imperialistic binge was the Philippine-American War, 1899 - 1902, just a 
century ago. It was a bloody fiasco, and one of the worst atrocities in 
history up to that time. The U.S. lost 1,018 soldiers. No one can estimate 
accurately how many Philippines were killed. The ratio of native people 
killed in action compared to U.S. soldiers was probably about ~100:1 -- the 
same as Vietnam and recent Israeli wars. Dislocations and widespread 
starvation caused by the war reduced the Philippine population from 
approximately 7.9 to 6.9 million people. It resembled the U.S. wars against 
native Americans that had recently ended. See:

http://www.filamwars.org/open_chapters.htm#chapter3

The Philippine-American War (and wars in general) was best described by 
Mark Twain, in "The War Prayer," see:

http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/twainwp.html

I will not predict that the U.S. will become bogged down in urban warfare. 
I can't stand the thought. With luck and skill that can be avoided. But if 
it does, based on recent historical precedents I jotted down the following 
predictions this morning: 3 to 6 months; 1,000 to 2,000 U.S. dead; 100,000 
to 200,000 Iraqi dead. Looking the newspapers this morning I found some 
military expert made *exactly* the same prediction, based on Vietnam and 
Israel. This would be a Pyrrhic victory -- the sort of thing I mentioned 
last week.

The war may be justified in some ways. No one disputes that tyranny is 
dreadful beyond imagination. But the cost of this or any other war is also 
beyond imagination. And we should not forget that tyranny has sometimes 
been overcome by other means short of war. In 1989 people worldwide 
overthrew communism from Germany to Russia, and they almost succeeded in 
China. 1989 was a great turning point in history, both politically and (we 
hope!) scientifically. In the future people will say it was as important as 
1492 or 1945.

On a (slightly) lighter note, here is another funny article in The Onion 
about this topic. This sounds a great deal like a debate between a CF 
researcher and a skeptic:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3911/pt_the_war_on_iraq.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 26 19:46:50 2003
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As Jed noted;

For those of you who are getting your news from Vortex.

While Sodamn Insane may idolize Stalin, his latest move is right out 
of Hitler's play book. He has ordered his best soldiers to make a 
frontal assault against the Coalition forces. Hay Sodamn, ever hear 
of the Battle of the Bulge? This is no surprise to those of us who 
understand the totalitarian mind.

As Dennis Prager pointed out, the totalitarian mind believes that the 
people exist to serve him and that if he must die, then they must die 
too.

As I pointed out to my neighbor, Peter the Red, you people have the 
misguided idea that totalitarianism exists separately from Socialism, 
but you are wrong, it is an integral element of it. He disagrees, of 
course. One of the greatest lies of the 20th Century is that there 
was any fundamental difference between Communism and Nasism, they are 
both variants of Socialism. One of the greatest lies of the 21st 
Century is that there is any fundamental difference between Islam and 
Socialism. Osama Bin Laudin gave proof to this when he sided with 
Sodamn.

Hugh Hewitt has been playing a new song by Cliff Black, entitled I 
raq I Rack Um Up and I Roll. It is a country western song that even 
an old rocker like me can love. You can listen to it on his website 
at www.cliffblack.com .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 06:58:08 2003
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My sister recommended this. It is the best I have seen:

http://terrafly.com/

Fun!

- Jed


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thomas malloy wrote:

>While Sodamn Insane may idolize Stalin, his latest move is right out of 
>Hitler's play book. He has ordered his best soldiers to make a frontal 
>assault against the Coalition forces.

Or maybe not. A single line message at the bottom of the CNN screen this 
morning claims reports of the column were an "intel mistake." The column 
never existed, or if it did, it was much smaller than initially reported. 
Nonetheless "several" B52 bombers were dispatched to bomb it, and victory 
was declared.

Things like this often happen in war. The famous heroic defense at the 
battle of Shiloh probably never happened -- at least not where it was 
claimed to occur -- according to anthropologists and military experts who 
have examined the ground. The Gulf of Tonkin Incident that triggered direct 
U.S. involvement in Vietnam was probably an intelligence error. It is 
unlikely U.S. ships were actually attacked. This was known at the time. 
Months after Johnson pushed through a de facto declaration with the 
Incident as the casus belli, he gloated to one of aides, "our boys may have 
been shooting at whales as far as I know." (He said something like that; 
see W. Manchester, "The Glory and the Dream.")

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 09:03:57 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:59:36 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: New Scientist book review
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I finally got a chance to read the New Scientist book review, p. 48. It is 
review of the book by Bart Simon, "Undead Science," as I mentioned.

I have often expressed my opinion of Simon and his dreadful book. I will 
not repeat myself here (much), except to say that the review is almost as 
sickening as the book. Both strive to replace objective science and 
fact-based analysis with a popularity contest, where the winner is the side 
that produces the most lies, propaganda, fear and ignorance. Both are 
filled with stinking garbage, such as statements that "by the end of 1990, 
a string of negative results had thrown [Fleischmann and Pons'] results 
into doubt" and "[F&P] had a penchant for press conferences." This famous 
"string" of negative results was actually three positive results, two 
covered up by fraud and one temporarily lost to incompetence. The New 
Scientist will never admit its own culpability in these sordid events.

However, I am glad this was published. As they say in show business, any 
publicity is good publicity.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 09:30:08 2003
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I wrote:

>The Gulf of Tonkin Incident that triggered direct U.S. involvement in 
>Vietnam was probably an intelligence error. It is unlikely U.S. ships were 
>actually attacked. This was known at the time. Months after Johnson pushed 
>through a de facto declaration with the Incident as the casus belli . . .

Meant "declaration of war." Sorry about the typo.

Declarations of war have gone out of style. That is a shame, since it means 
the Constitution and the War Powers Act are also out of style.

This morning I recalled a famous aspect of the First Battle of Bull Run. 
When people learned that a battle would be fought close to Washington, some 
members of Congress, distinguished citizens and fashionable rich ladies 
rode out on carriages to watch. Some carried picnic lunches and bottles of 
champagne, expecting to toast a quick Union victory and the end of the war. 
They expected a blaze of glory, but instead they witnessed mass murder, 
hideous wounds, and the chaotic retreat of the Union Army. It was good for 
them, in a way. The Union never again underestimated the Confederacy. The 
chastened Congressmen voted for a larger army and a serious, sustained 
effort, whereas the Confederates went on believing the rest of the war 
would be an easy victory.

Of course nowadays we would never think of war as a public spectacle, would 
we? No one would predict a bloodless, one-day triumph. We would not exploit 
people's fears or their prurient interest in public executions to sell soap 
or beer. We are beyond all that.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 09:59:21 2003
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:56:10 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Kooistra's second Analog article on CF is published
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Here is is, folks:

http://www.analogsf.com/0304/altview.shtml

Unfortunately, I cannot read it. The screen settings at analogsf.com have 
covered the right side of the article with a black margin. I can read it by 
copying the text and pasting it into a word processor. I just zapped a 
message off to the Editors and to Kooistra with screen shots from my 
computer, showing the problem.

I wish that people who design web pages would tone down these special 
effects. They no longer shock and awe the audience the way they used to, 
back when people were new to computers.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 10:51:41 2003
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Subject: RE: Kooistra's second Analog article on CF is published
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:05:17 -0500
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Yeah, well he seems to be talking about everything
but. BTW, what browser are you using? It looks fine
in both IE and my old netscape 4.7.

The stuff about Jefimenko is interesting, I've always
been impressed by his work. The link provided at
the bottom ( which is his bio ) is bad, the real
link is as below.

http://www.as.wvu.edu/coll03/phys/www/jefimenk.htm

One of the great things about his work is that it
all builds on previous texts. If you're completely
ignorant of the math required to understand the
material, then start with his undergraduate
texts on the subject. They're quite good, really.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:56 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Kooistra's second Analog article on CF is published


Here is is, folks:

http://www.analogsf.com/0304/altview.shtml

Unfortunately, I cannot read it. The screen settings at analogsf.com have
covered the right side of the article with a black margin. I can read it by
copying the text and pasting it into a word processor. I just zapped a
message off to the Editors and to Kooistra with screen shots from my
computer, showing the problem.

I wish that people who design web pages would tone down these special
effects. They no longer shock and awe the audience the way they used to,
back when people were new to computers.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 10:55:22 2003
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Subject: No Wait! Kooistra's second Analog article is NOT published!
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Now that I have transferred the article to a format I can read, I see it is 
NOT the long awaited Part II. It just mentions the next part. Anyway, it is 
interesting.

- Jed


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Now that I have transferred the article to a format I can read, I see 
> it is NOT the long awaited Part II. It just mentions the next part. 
> Anyway, it is interesting. 


Be sure Kooistra has the new URL!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 14:10:29 2003
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New uploads are described in Features.

- Jed


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Jed,

Sorry about that--the worst ongoing frustration with my Alt View columns is
the long lead time for Analog--I have to turn in my columns four or five
months before the issue that it will be in appears.  When I wrote part 1,
the URL was still LENR.org.  When I was firing up for part 2, the shift to
LENR-CANR.org happened, and it just seemed more prudent to wait and see how
things went.

Anyway, part 2 will be available in the June issue of Analog.

kooistra

----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:51 PM
Subject: No Wait! Kooistra's second Analog article is NOT published!


> Now that I have transferred the article to a format I can read, I see it
is
> NOT the long awaited Part II. It just mentions the next part. Anyway, it
is
> interesting.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


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Jed,

> I finally got a chance to read the New Scientist book review, p. 48. It is
> review of the book by Bart Simon, "Undead Science," as I mentioned.
>
> I have often expressed my opinion of Simon and his dreadful book.

I didn't know you had such a negative view of Simon's book.   I guess I'd
better tell you (so you won't be shocked later) that I gave Simon's book a
short positive review in LENR Part 2.  It worked well for my Analog
audience, with Simon's book saying CF lives (or rather, is "undead") along
with the LENR site review.

> However, I am glad this was published. As they say in show business, any
> publicity is good publicity.

Unfortunately, this particular truth is inordinately important in the alt
science field.

kooistra



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 16:17:41 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: No Wait! Kooistra's second Analog article is NOT published!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:32:14 -0500
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Yeah, while on the subject....

WTF happened to LENR.org???? as far as
I can tell today, it just bounces you
to lenr-canr.org. Seems like you should
stick with the first one Jed. 

I use a simple test for registering an
URL, I call my Mom and say "Try getting
to my new website www.whatever.bob" and
see what happens. A dash always foils
her. No vowels makes it even more puzzling.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra [mailto:dskjdk myexcel.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 6:11 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: No Wait! Kooistra's second Analog article is NOT published!


Jed,

Sorry about that--the worst ongoing frustration with my Alt View columns is
the long lead time for Analog--I have to turn in my columns four or five
months before the issue that it will be in appears.  When I wrote part 1,
the URL was still LENR.org.  When I was firing up for part 2, the shift to
LENR-CANR.org happened, and it just seemed more prudent to wait and see how
things went.

Anyway, part 2 will be available in the June issue of Analog.

kooistra

----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:51 PM
Subject: No Wait! Kooistra's second Analog article is NOT published!


> Now that I have transferred the article to a format I can read, I see it
is
> NOT the long awaited Part II. It just mentions the next part. Anyway, it
is
> interesting.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 27 20:49:38 2003
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Subject: Anybody remember Enron and CA???
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:06:42 -0500
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Hi All.

The FERC, in a fit of sanity, has released some new
reports regarding action to be taken due to the
2000 Energy crisis. A sample quote follows.

>After an exhaustive 13-month investigation into
> behavior that may have caused dramatic
>price spikes in the California energy markets in
> 2000 and 2001, the staff of the Federal Energy
>Regulatory Commission today concluded that an underlying
> supply-demand imbalance and
>flawed market design combined to make a fertile
> environment for market manipulation. The
>Commission reacted to the report by taking
> strong additional enforcement actions.

More to be found here.

http://www.ferc.fed.us/news/pressreleases/prsrls1.htm

Companies lied about the price of natural gas,
engaged in sham gas trades, devised dishonest
electricity trading strategies and grossly overcharged
California for energy when supplies were tight, the
FERC concluded.

Good thing they're releasing all this information now,
whilst a major war is going on, so as to minimize
fallout to sitting administration members. Anything
else would have been....unpatriotic!

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 00:42:01 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:41:05 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Sodamn's Offensive
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Ha, what do you think of that subject line? Now there's something 
that we can all agree on, eh?

>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>While Sodamn Insane may idolize Stalin, his latest move is right 
>>out of Hitler's play book. He has ordered his best soldiers to make 
>>a frontal assault against the Coalition forces.

And Jed responded;

>
Or maybe not. A single line message at the bottom of the CNN screen 
this morning claims reports of the column were an "intel mistake." 
The column never existed, or

I saw that too, but it seems that the initial reports were at least 
partly right.

I just listened to a chilling interview with a former associate and 
ex friend of Scott Ritter, Bill Tierney. wftierney earthlink.net . He 
is having his book reviewed now by the NSA to see how much of it will 
have to be cut out. He agrees with me that Sodamn was responsible for 
9/11. I have previously mentioned the terrorist training school which 
Yoni, an American who went Allyeh, and rose to the rank of Major in 
the IDF, and who is a regular caller on the Hugh Hewitt show says the 
same thing.

He also said that Sodamn gave Ritter $400,000 about the time he 
changed his coat, leading to the termination of their friendship.

Most interesting of all whoever was his comment that he had been 
forced out of government service by evil forces in it. I assume that 
he is talking about the same evil forces which I believe were 
responsible for the promotion of what I was talking about when I told 
Pat Buchannan:
the work of the late Anthony Sutton. Dr. Sutton clearly documented 
that there is a group in the East Coast Establishment, which has 
fostered totalitarian regimes in both Russia and Germany. This is the 
same group who has promoted abortion, now there is something that all 
three of us agree on. Their agenda also includes sexual immorality 
and the separation of church and state. I believe that the English 
legal system, and hence ours, is based on Torah.  It is clear to me 
that these people are either psychotic or in league with HaSatan. 

He believes that Sodam has nukes, and that he will bloody our noses 
with them in the mistaken belief that if the casuality list gets long 
enough we will with draw, This is just what I'd do were I in his 
place, and believed myself to be the reincarnation of King 
Nebuchazzaner. We shall see.

I'll try that email address, I don't expect to get a response for at 
least a week, if any of you are interested, I'll report back.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 07:42:06 2003
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Subject: RE: Sodamn's Offensive
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General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to
fluoridating water, why there are studies underway to fluoridate salt,
flour, fruit juices, soup,
sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
Group Captain Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.
Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?
Mandrake: Aye, no, no. I don't Jack.
Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six Mandrake. How
does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? Its incredibly
obvious
isn't it. A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids
without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice.
That's the way your
hard-core Commie works.
Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you
first...become...well, develop this theory?
Ripper: Well, I, uh...I...I...first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.
Mandrake: Hmm.
Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue...a feeling of emptiness
followed. Luckily I...I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss
of essence.
Mandrake: Hmm.
Ripper: I can assure you that it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women
uh...women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid
women, Mandrake.
Mandrake: No.
Ripper: But I...I do deny them my essence.

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 3:41 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Sodamn's Offensive


Ha, what do you think of that subject line? Now there's something
that we can all agree on, eh?

>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>While Sodamn Insane may idolize Stalin, his latest move is right
>>out of Hitler's play book. He has ordered his best soldiers to make
>>a frontal assault against the Coalition forces.

And Jed responded;

>
Or maybe not. A single line message at the bottom of the CNN screen
this morning claims reports of the column were an "intel mistake."
The column never existed, or

I saw that too, but it seems that the initial reports were at least
partly right.

I just listened to a chilling interview with a former associate and
ex friend of Scott Ritter, Bill Tierney. wftierney earthlink.net . He
is having his book reviewed now by the NSA to see how much of it will
have to be cut out. He agrees with me that Sodamn was responsible for
9/11. I have previously mentioned the terrorist training school which
Yoni, an American who went Allyeh, and rose to the rank of Major in
the IDF, and who is a regular caller on the Hugh Hewitt show says the
same thing.

He also said that Sodamn gave Ritter $400,000 about the time he
changed his coat, leading to the termination of their friendship.

Most interesting of all whoever was his comment that he had been
forced out of government service by evil forces in it. I assume that
he is talking about the same evil forces which I believe were
responsible for the promotion of what I was talking about when I told
Pat Buchannan:
the work of the late Anthony Sutton. Dr. Sutton clearly documented
that there is a group in the East Coast Establishment, which has
fostered totalitarian regimes in both Russia and Germany. This is the
same group who has promoted abortion, now there is something that all
three of us agree on. Their agenda also includes sexual immorality
and the separation of church and state. I believe that the English
legal system, and hence ours, is based on Torah.  It is clear to me
that these people are either psychotic or in league with HaSatan.

He believes that Sodam has nukes, and that he will bloody our noses
with them in the mistaken belief that if the casuality list gets long
enough we will with draw, This is just what I'd do were I in his
place, and believed myself to be the reincarnation of King
Nebuchazzaner. We shall see.

I'll try that email address, I don't expect to get a response for at
least a week, if any of you are interested, I'll report back.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 07:52:06 2003
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Subject: Re: New Scientist book review
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:

>I didn't know you had such a negative view of Simon's book.

You can root through the archives here if you want to know the gory 
details. To make a long story short, I think we should judge the issues 
based only on experiments and the known (?) laws of physics, and he thinks 
the ultimate judgement must depend on the opinions of other people, 
particularly experts. I granted that in some respects and in some 
situations his argument has merit, but it does not begin to apply to CF. CF 
experiments are very difficult to do, but the results are not difficulty to 
understand or analyze, and they can be judged by conventional, 19th century 
physics textbook criteria.


>I guess I'd better tell you (so you won't be shocked later) that I gave 
>Simon's book a short positive review in LENR Part 2.

I don't mind a bit!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 07:57:45 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:43:49 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: LENR.org alias
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMCEJMDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Yeah, while on the subject....
>
>WTF happened to LENR.org????

It is a long story. Anyway, in the last act Talbot Chubb very kindly 
purchased the rights to LENR.org and made that an alias to LENR-CANR.org.


>  as far as
>I can tell today, it just bounces you
>to lenr-canr.org. Seems like you should
>stick with the first one Jed.

I have thought about doing that, or publicizing the fact that LENR.org is 
an alias, but I decided (for now) that would only confuse matters. By the 
time Talbot purchased LENR.org for us, there were many files and links in 
place for the longer name. For example, if you have a hyperlink or a 
bibliography pointing to:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BockrisJtwozonesof.pdf

You can make it:

http://lenr.org/acrobat/BockrisJtwozonesof.pdf

But when the file pops up on the screen the full name pops up in the I.E. 
Address field.

There are other problems, such as what happens if Talbot stops paying the 
annual fee for LENR.org?

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 08:28:12 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:25:08 -0500
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Subject: LENR-CANR.org may be disrupted by bandwidth expense crisis
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Here is a problem I would love to have. Some guy put a .pdf book on his 
website, people downloaded 10,000 copies in no time, and now he owes the 
ISP $15,000. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,58219,00.html

New Scientist has 139,000 subscribers, and I think it will publish the 
LENR-CANR.org address tomorrow. It is unlikely, but possible, that a 
substantial fraction of those people will download articles. I am sure the 
ISP, Earthlink.net, can handle a large number of accesses. But after I read 
this Wired article I checked the Earthlink contract, and I found they 
charge an arm & a leg for bandwidth above the monthly quota. It comes to 
$100 per GB!

We are well below quota. The quota is 10 GB per month, and we have used 2.8 
GB in March (for 27 days). I can increase that to 30 GB, for $85 per month. 
See:

http://www.earthlink.net/biz/hosting/packages/

Downloads are now running around 625 per day. If that increases to 3,000 or 
4,000 per day, no problem -- I can handle it. But if it increases to 6,000 
per day and stays at that level for a week or more, I may approach the 30 
GB per month limit, and I may have to pay thousands per month. If that 
starts to happen, I will be forced to remove all files temporarily, and put 
an emergency announcement on the main screen.

Here are the stats for March 1 - March 27, 2003: 16,886 files downloaded. 
2.79 GB downloaded, including HTML screens and other overhead. That comes 
to 0.17 MB for the average paper. Over-quota bandwidth is sold in 1 MB 
increments for $0.10, so it would cost me $0.02 per paper.

Earthlink's pricing scheme does not makes sense. The more bandwidth you 
buy, the more they charge per GB! It is the opposite of a volume discount: 
they are trying to discourage sales growth. If it costs them anything like 
$100/GB they must be losing money on a normal account.


ANYWAY . . . if LENR-CANR goes off line suddenly, it won't be Men in Black 
suppressing cold fusion. It will be some Earthlink account manager worried 
I have maxed out my credit card.

- Jed 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 09:50:20 2003
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Subject: Re: New Scientist book review
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I wrote:

"I granted that in some respects and in some situations his argument has 
merit, but it does not begin to apply to CF. CF experiments are very 
difficult to do, but the results are not difficulty to understand or 
analyze, and they can be judged by conventional, 19th century physics 
textbook criteria."

And contrary to some skeptical accusations, I do NOT assert that all 
experiments fall in this category! Simon's criteria may apply to some 
subjects, particularly those on the nebulous end of the scale, such as the 
top quark experiment at Fermilab. (Fermilab's description gives me that 
impression.) However, as it happens, CF calorimetry is often based on 
classic early 19th century instruments and techniques, at the other end of 
the scale. The idea that a "consensus of expert opinion" might overrule a 
thermometer is ludicrous. CF helium studies are back toward the nebulous 
side, where a consensus of expert opinion begins to make sense. Some the CF 
and other research described in Beaudette book is nebulous.

Turney, in New Scientist, fails to understand this scale, when he writes: 
". . . ten years is an impressive afterlife for a defunct field, certainly 
long enough to show that it is extraordinarily hard to pin down when, if 
ever, it is definitely unscientific to reject the majority view." Here the 
Simon Standard disintegrates into meaningless gabble. If CF is "defunct" 
then so are the laws of thermodynamics. It is not "hard to pin down" P&F's 
calorimetry or Fritz Will's tritium! These results should have convinced 
every scientist by 1990. Ignorance, hysteria, malicious politics and 
stupidity prevented that. The "majority" has read nothing about CF and 
knows nothing about it, so the "majority view" is about as useful as a 
Magic 8-Ball toy. ("It is certain." "Signs point to no" "My sources say 
no." "Ask again later.")

There are many different ways of doing science, and different sets of rules 
apply, depending on the field. Reproducibility is an iron-clad requirement 
in most areas, but it does not exist in a few, such as observations of 
super-nova or earthquakes. Blind or double blind methodology is essential 
in medicine, and it was an excellent technique for Melvin Miles' helium 
studies, but it would be ridiculous in plasma physics or aviation.

Science is as varied as any other major human activity, such as computer 
programming, cooking, crime, or fighting wars. There are many different 
ways to do it depending on who you are, what your goal is, what tools you 
have and so on. Simon described a limited set of rules that work for some 
researchers in some fields, and then he tried to apply these rules to CF, 
where they do not belong.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 10:06:18 2003
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Earthlink's pricing scheme does not makes sense. The more bandwidth 
> you buy, the more they charge per GB! It is the opposite of a volume 
> discount: they are trying to discourage sales growth. If it costs them 
> anything like $100/GB they must be losing money on a normal account. 


http://www.t1-t3-dsl-line.com/solutions.php

This site will give you an idea of pure bandwidth cost.  A 45 Mbps (T3) 
line provides about 1.17 x 10^14 bits per month at a cost of 
approximately $14,000 per month for the ISP internet connection.  This 
means he gets about 84 Gb for a buck.  Now, there's a whole lot more to 
figuring his true cost.  The biggest issue regarding bandwidth is 
quality of service.  Since Inet access peaks determine your QOS and 
cost, my guess is that the ISP pays 10 times this bandwidth cost with a 
lot of late night idle time.

But, he has MAJOR capital investments in servers, facilities, support, 
etc. which he has to recover in about 5 years.  I would guess that it 
costs the ISP about $25 per month to provide you your 30 Gb.  The 
problem is he has to watch his reserve bandwidth.  He can't adjust this 
quickly; therefore, he must penalize you for exceeding your allocation.

Terry

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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR.org may be disrupted by bandwidth expense crisis
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>I would guess that it costs the ISP about $25 per month to provide you 
>your 30 Gb.  The problem is he has to watch his reserve bandwidth.  He 
>can't adjust this quickly; therefore, he must penalize you for exceeding 
>your allocation.

Interesting. Still, A huge ISP such as Earthlink must have a lot of 
reserve. And the sliding scale is not only extreme, it slides back and forth:

Startersite: $2.00/GB
Prosite: $1.75/GB
Premium: $2.83/GB

Over-quota: $100.00/GB

I think ~$10/GB for the first 100 GB over-quota would be more reasonable.

I hope Earthlink would shut down the link automatically before someone 
inadvertently incurs, say, $20,000 in over-quota expenses.

A malicious hacker might hurt someone by triggering thousands of downloads 
from the person's site.

- Jed


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I hope Earthlink would shut down the link automatically before someone 
> inadvertently incurs, say, $20,000 in over-quota expenses. 


This is automatic with some ISPs.  You don't have such a clause in your 
agreement?

Terry

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Sodamn's Offensive
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 12:20:43 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: knagel gis.net
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEKADIAA.knagel gis.net>



Keith Nagel wrote:

>Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue...a feeling of emptiness
>followed. Luckily I...I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss
>of essence.
>

Ackshully, according to the ancients, ejaculation results in significant 
loss of chi.

http://flyingeagleacademy.com/qigong.shtml

Terry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 11:23:37 2003
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:15:00 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Global warming is example of legitimate Simon Standard
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I should have listed the global warming hypothesis as a good example where 
the Simon Standard applies. A consensus of expert opinion is the only 
standard we can apply. The complexity is overwhelming. The outcome is 
"extraordinarily hard to pin down." We cannot do an experiment. (Or we can 
only do one experiment, and it may destroy the planet!)

I do not mean to belittle or denigrate these fields by calling them 
"nebulous." Global warming prediction is perfectly legitimate science, and 
so is the Fermlib top quark experiment as far as I know. The Wassermann 
test described by Beaudette required expertise and intuition, but it was 
still science -- or a mixture of art and science. As I said, Simon & 
Turney's criteria work with some subjects in some fields, but not CF.


The cover article in this issue of New Scientist gives me the creeps. It is 
outrageous. The title is "Genetic Annihilation - Now we can wipe out rogue 
species for ever." The author and some researchers seriously propose 
driving some species of mosquito into extinction with a clever, cheap 
genetic engineering trick because, "millions of people lose a family member 
to malaria every year."

While we are at it, let's burn down all the art galleries and libraries 
because millions of people get asthma from the dust of old paintings and books.

The idea that another species is a "rogue" and that we have the right to 
deliberately wipe it out strikes me as unspeakably barbaric. We can 
eliminate malaria for a few dollars per family per year, with low-tech 
mosquito nets. Furthermore, we have no clue -- NO CLUE! -- what deleterious 
side effects on the ecology eliminating mosquitos might have. The only 
species we should ever destroy are serious diseases that affect humans 
only, such as smallpox and polio.

I cannot believe people still think this way! I hope Edwin Wilson writes 
them a scathing letter.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 11:58:59 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR.org may be disrupted by bandwidth expense crisis
In-Reply-To: <3E849726.2060002 rtpatlanta.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>>I hope Earthlink would shut down the link automatically before someone 
>>inadvertently incurs, say, $20,000 in over-quota expenses.
>
>
>This is automatic with some ISPs.  You don't have such a clause in your 
>agreement?

Let me check . . .

Nope! It isn't in the contract, and I just talked to an Earthtech sales and 
then a tech support guy to confirm. They had that feature on the previous 
platform, but not on this one. Ain't progress wonderful!?! He think it 
would be a good idea to have an automatic cut-off. He says they used to 
allow anonymous uploads, and people sometimes used randomly chosen web 
sites to move data around (movies or x-rated pixs I'll bet), running up a 
$20,000 tab overnight.

Furthermore, I can only check the traffic stats once a day, at midday.

So, I may hit the jackpot here. I may win a reverse lottery. New Scientist 
says: "we're a science magazine for everyone, both young & old, amateur & 
professional, and have a circulation of 138,739 (Jan - Jun 2002 ABC) and a 
worldwide readership of almost half a million."

http://www.newscientist.com/thesite/tsfaq.jsp

Okay. So, suppose Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning one-tenth of that 
half million people visits, and they decide to download 2.8 files, which is 
the average per visit lately. That's 50,000 * 2.8 * 0.17 MB = 23 GB. I 
would not find out until Sunday afternoon. I would declare an emergency and 
shut down the site. I think the risk is very small.

The Internet being what it is, word can spread within hours, and 
conceivably ~1 million people will drop by and download 1 file each, or 
~170 GB, before I realize what is happening. Actually, I doubt the 
Earthlink techs would fail to notice something on that scale! That would 
cost $17,000. I could handle that. I would be happy to pay that much if it 
means world-wide interest in CF. I could probably collect contributions to 
cover the expense later on.

Today's downloads, by the way, are 704. The week totals so far are 3,528. 
Cumulative totals are 54,258. Ed Storms did an analysis of the data and 
found a clear trend. According to a least squares fit of the data the 
number of downloads per day increases by 3.3. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#Visitors

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 13:33:41 2003
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: New Scientist issue contents on web site. CF is featured, but
  not on line
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Okay, the web site now has a screen shot of the March 29 edition. (It is 
almost March 29 in the U.K.) The CF article is listed as a "Feature" but it 
is not available on the web site. See:

http://www.newscientist.com/inprint/ipcontents.jsp#cover

"REASONABLE DOUBT

No sooner had cold fusion surfaced than it was written off, and the idea of 
extracting virtually limitless free energy from water became taboo. So how 
come a small band of experienced researchers working for the US Navy just 
can't let it drop? Bennett Daviss takes up their strange story"


- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 13:39:20 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Evidence for coherent phonons
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 08:35:55 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Here http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v422/n6929/abs/nature01490_fs.html
is evidence for short term coherence in optical phonons in Bismuth.
Just the sort of thing that could lead to CF if we could produce the effect
in a D saturated cathode.


Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 14:31:49 2003
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Not a weapon, though:

http://www.yowusa.com/Archive/March2003/scalar1/scalar1.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 14:42:37 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:39:37 +1100
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Tue, 25 Mar 2003 03:11:15 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>>>RvS " x-ray studies of Pd110 reveal that the binding energy of the 
>>>inner electron is about 24 keV"
>>>
>>>Yes. This is why it seems unlikely to me that any hydrino can ever 
>>>reach a Pd nucleus, or even get past the inner orbitals.
>
>Hum, this is an interesting discussion. are you saying that the 
>electron has an inherent energy of 24 keV? Then if we could somehow 

No, just that it takes about 24 keV to remove the inner electron of Pd.
[snip]
>>Hydrino-hydride (i.e. a hydrino with an extra electron), is both 
>>heavy and negatively charged. As it "falls" toward another nucleus, 
>>energy is released,
>
>This is something that Mills' cooked up? I noticed that he's 

Hydrino-hydride is a Mills concept, though I doubt he would agree with me
about one orbiting the nucleus of another atom.

>experimenting with various chemical reactions. I suggested to one of 
>my engineer friends that they might be useful in producing a harder 
>steel surface.
>
>What is the hydrino with an extra electron? How does that work?

Both electron shells have almost the same radius according to Mills.
The overall ion has a negative charge. It happens when a hydrino captures a free electron. Hydrinos that have shrunk beyond n=1/25 (1/24?) are no longer able to capture electrons (Mills). He calls the resultant negative ion "Hydrino Hydride".
(Personally I think Hydrinoide would have been more in keeping with conventional nomenclature).
[snip]
>>They can only really escape once they get below n=1/24, because 
>>that's when they can no longer hold on to an extra electron, and are 
>>forced to remain neutral. Being small
>
>Is this extra electron something that the hydrino inherently attracts?

Yes. The strength of the attraction depends on the level of shrinkage of the hydrino.

>>
>>Yes, but that isn't a problem. Neutrons have just such a charge distribution,
>>and they wander through atoms almost with impunity.
>
>This sounds like they would be rather difficult to contain.

Neutrons are indeed difficult to contain.

>
>>Furthermore negative muons also have no problems displacing regular 
>>electrons and forming muonic molecules.
>
>These negative muons, do they occur naturally, or do they have to be created?

They are created either through the action of cosmic rays impacting on the atmosphere, or in accelerators.

>
>>
>>Argon is a one step catalyst. If you can find spectroscopic evidence 
>>of higher hydrinos levels in an experiment in which argon was the 
>>catalyst, then you have the evidence
>
>Do the hydrinos react with they Argon?

Ar+ is the actual catalyst which reacts with hydrinos to shrink them further.

>>
>>further in a process he sometimes calls "disproportionation," which 
>>is to say that lower-energy hydrogen atoms, hydrinos, can act as a 
>>source of energy holes that can
>
>disproportionation, I've got to figure out what that means.

It's in the dictionary.
[snip]

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 28 14:59:38 2003
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW   Friday, 28 Mar 03
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:16:01 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
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To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 28 Mar 03   Washington, DC

1. SECRECY: WHAT DO YOU SUPPOSE IS HIDDEN IN THOSE DOCUMENTS? 
Last week WN reported on the draft of new rules for the release
of secret documents (WN 21 Mar 03).  Under an executive order
signed by President Clinton in 1995, most government documents
more than 25 years old were to be automatically declassified on
April 17, 2003.  The new executive order, signed on Tuesday by
President Bush, postpones automatic declassification to December
31, 2006.  Under the new order, information supplied in
confidence by a foreign government will be born classified, and
classifiers are instructed that, "when in doubt, classify,"
reversing the policy that has been in place for decades.  Even
the signing was announced somewhat surreptitiously, coming at the
very end of a day dominated by news of the war in Iraq.

2. SPACE SHUTTLES: TAKING CREW REDUCTION AS FAR AS IT CAN GO. 
Progress of any society can be measured by the extent to which
technology rather than humans performs those tasks that would be
dangerous or menial.  The manned space program has therefore been
the antithesis of progress.  With the International Space Station
now in orbit, the plan is to use the Shuttle just to ferry
supplies and crew.  But according to a New York Times article,
consideration is now being given to using the shuttle as an
unmanned supply vehicle, with crew replacement dependent on the
Russians or eventually a new space plane.  This would require
little Shuttle modification, since it is already controlled by
the computer over almost the entire flight, and the Russian
version, Buran, made its only flight unmanned.  On the ISS, the
crew will soon be down to two (WN 14 Mar 03).  If nothing more
meaningful than sniffing flowers or watching spiders spin webs in
microgravity is found for them to do (WN 7 Feb 03), still more
social progress may be on the way, with the ISS crew cut to zero.

3. BIOSPHERE-2: ACRIMONY THRIVES IN THE GIANT TERRARIUM.  When
the crops failed, Columbia University stepped in, promising to
find an educational use for the costly project.  Its owner, Texas
billionaire Ed Bass, got educated in January when Columbia
announced it was bailing out (WN 24 Jan 03).  Bass, described by
the New York Times as an "environmentalist," began the project
thinking a colony on Mars might offer an alternative to life on
an Earth headed for social disaster.  $200M later, the message
was that we'd better save Earth; there's no place else to go. Now
Bass is suing Columbia for "bad faith" in abandoning the project.

4. WORLD PEACE: "UNIFIED CONSCIOUSNESS FIELD" IS NOT WORKING.  In
September of 2001, John Hagelin, string theorist and perennial
presidential candidate, held a press conference in Washington to
call for donations of $1B to train a corp of 40,000 Yogic flyers
to go forth and meditate in unison, thus creating permanent world
peace (WN 28 Sep 01).  Judging from the news out of Iraq, he must
have come up a little short.  Last week, Hagelin issued a press
release announcing that he won't be a candidate in 2004.  Instead
he is throwing his support behind Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH).

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 29 11:18:36 2003
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Subject: LENR-CANR downloads today
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The New Scientist seems to be having an effect. Traffic is much higher than 
normal for a Saturday.

Downloads: 1,115
Visits: 290

Most recent Saturdays have attracted 300 or 400 downloads, and ~200 visitors.

I expect the effect will peak around Wednesday. I think most people will 
look up something in an article within a day or two, and it will slip their 
mind after that.

I expect traffic will peak and then fall back, but it will not fall all the 
way back to previous levels. That has been the pattern with surges. They 
resemble Fleischmann's graphs of heat pulses in active cells; the power 
level does not fully "relax."

Grand total downloads are 55,373.

I put up a Welcome Page for New Scientist readers, listing Navy publications.

- Jed


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	More visits WHERE?


On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The New Scientist seems to be having an effect. Traffic is much higher than 
> normal for a Saturday.
> 
> Downloads: 1,115
> Visits: 290
> 
> Most recent Saturdays have attracted 300 or 400 downloads, and ~200 visitors.
> 
> I expect the effect will peak around Wednesday. I think most people will 
> look up something in an article within a day or two, and it will slip their 
> mind after that.
> 
> I expect traffic will peak and then fall back, but it will not fall all the 
> way back to previous levels. That has been the pattern with surges. They 
> resemble Fleischmann's graphs of heat pulses in active cells; the power 
> level does not fully "relax."
> 
> Grand total downloads are 55,373.
> 
> I put up a Welcome Page for New Scientist readers, listing Navy publications.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 29 16:18:25 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: More on CF radioactivity and active isotopes
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 10:14:23 +1000
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:47:47 +0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message :
>
>“Hydrino-hydride (i.e. a hydrino with an extra electron) is both heavy 
>and negatively charged. As it "falls" toward another nucleus, energy is 
>released, which compensates for the energy required to displace an 
>existing electron.”
>
>Hi,
>
>I am traveling and don’t have access to my files now, but there are a 
>few points that should be made here, even without adequate reference. 
>According to LN condensable article by Mills, the only article that I was 
>able to find that mentions actual size, the hydrino hydrides that he has 
>been able to measure are slightly larger than one angstrom in 
>diameter, making them less dense per cubic area than hydrogen. What 
>do you mean by “heavy”? 

First I'm not talking about what he has actually measured. This is a discussion of hypotheticals. By heavy I mean that they are much more massive than electrons.

>Does that imply that they have a higher 
>sp.gravity than H? Even the diameter formula he gives indicates that 
>the diameter of the hydrino hydrides is to be based on the 
>corresponding  hydrogen negative ion, not on the uncharged atom or 
>Bohr radius, and  these ions are huge compared to H, so the size of a 
>hydrino hydride can’t ever get very small, can it? 


Mills gives the following formula for the radius of hydrino hydride:

r2 = r1 = (a0/p)x(1+sqrt(s x (s+1))) (where s=1/2)

So substituting for s yields:

r(p) = (a0/p) x 1.866

IOW while always approximately twice the size of the neutral hydrino (which is of course a0/p), hydrino hydride does get smaller with p.


>If so, why can’t Mills 
>find the small ones?

How do you know he doesn't?

>
>Moreover, since hydrino hydrides are negatively charged, how do they 
>get into inner orbitals of metals like Pd in the first place? There is just
>
>no way! One just doesn’t casually “displace an existing electron with a 
>much larger particle.”

Heavily shrunken hydrino hydride isn't "much larger", it's actually up to 13  times smaller. (Given that the "size" of the electron is Bohr orbit or larger). Though this may not be small enough for the inner orbital of Pd.
OTOH, I could envisage the charge on the Pd nucleus distorting the orbital of the hydrino, perhaps leading to formation of a lopsided molecule inside the Pd atom. (See Mills description of the hydrogen molecule).

>
>RvS “In fact if the hydrino-hydride orbit has a smaller radius that that of
>
>the inner electrons, then more energy is released by the "in fall" than is 
>
>required to displace the one electron, that the hydrino-hydride charge 
>demands.”
>
>Even if this were true (and Mills himself offers no proof that it is) the 
>hydrino hydride still must somehow get inside the inner orbital to begin 
>with…how is this accomplished? One doesn’t just “displace” inner 
>orbitals. Those electrons in fact shield the nucleus. They are very tightly
>
>bound and NO negatively charged, large un-accelerated particle is 
>going to get in there. Muons are billions of times smaller than hydrino 
>hydrides.

Actually when pressed on this issue, Mills said that he believed that
muons also form a shell around the nucleus just as he describes for electrons, but about 200 times smaller.

>
>RvS “Once hydrinos form, they stay formed.”
>
>Huh? The reaction isn’t reversible? 

That was a little sloppy on my part. I didn't mean that the reaction was absolutely irreversible, just that the reverse reaction tends to be very unlikely, in as much as any chemical reaction that releases a large amount of energy is unlikely to run in the reverse direction.
[snip]

>Where does Mills state this in the 
>recent revision of CQM? I believe this view has been abandoned, if it 
>was ever his view at all, as I have scanned the new 2003 revision and 
>cannot find this statement.  If it were true, then why would he  mention 
>ionization potentials at all? 

I believe that most of the time, when Mills talks about ionisation potentials, it is in regard to hydrino hydride. However he has in the past mentioned the possibility of hydrinos being ionised by x-rays, something which I found somewhat contradictory, given that his entire theory was based
upon the postulate that hydrinos could neither spontaneously radiate nor absorb EM radiation.

>See Table 5.1 page 238, all of the hydrinos 
>have binding energy and that energy deficit will ensure that the 
>reaction is reversible.

True in principle, however such reversed reactions do not happen spontaneously nearly as frequently as a spontaneous hydrino shrinkage.
(IOW in order to reverse the reaction, one would have to add the energy that escaped when the hydrino formed, and given the magnitude of the energy involved, such a reaction is many orders of magnitude less likely than the reversal of any other chemical reaction currently known).
IOW hydrinos should be amongst the most stable substances known, at least stable to reconstitution to hydrogen, not however to further shrinkage).

>
>RvS “Therefore it is only necessary to keep them localized long 
>enough to ensure that they shrink to ever smaller sizes.”
>
>What evidence is there for smaller shrinkage? There is plenty of 
>evidence for one or two redundant ground states in the spectroscopy 
>data, but where is the evidence for extreme shrinkage (greater than 1/
>3)? 

In http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/LANL%20Data%20112502A2.pdf on pdf page 28 of 87 there is a spectrum. On page 29, Mills equates the line at 28.93 nm
to a shrunken state of n=1/4. Note also that there are even shorter wavelength lines present in the spectrum, implying higher energies and even further shrunken states. 

>Does one have to buy into the whole theory, or could it be possible 
>that Mills got a few things right and many things wrong?

Of course it's possible that he has got it at least partially wrong.
Even he believes this, otherwise he wouldn't bother doing any experiments.

>
>RvS “(Though the smaller they get, the lower the reaction cross section 
>for shrinkage, hence the process would tend to slow as they get 
>smaller).”
>
>How do you know this? Is it just part of the theory or is there real proof?

It just seems obvious to me. Smaller particles have longer mean free paths,
colliding less frequently, hence will react less frequently, as the shrinkage reactions are collision based.

>RvS “They can only really escape once they get below n=1/24, 
>because that's when they can no longer hold on to an extra electron, 
>and are forced to remain neutral. Being small and neutral they could in 
>theory escape through solid matter, providing they don't undergo a 
>fusion reaction along the way.”
>
>Again, is this just part of the theory or is there real proof?

No real proof. It's just something else that seems obvious to me. Negatively charged particles should have great difficulty migrating through a metal because they get repelled by the free electrons in the metal, and tend to get stuck to a positive ion. We see this process all the time when an oxide layer forms on the surface of a metal. You can think of well shrunken hydrinos as
powerful oxidisers (even more powerful than fluorine), so one would expect them to "oxidise" the inner surface of the metal container and then form a stable "salt" on that surface. 

>
>Although un-ionized hydrinos, like all atoms, are net neutral in charge, 
>they express an intense negatively charged near-field that will strongly 
>interact with any atoms' electron cloud, don't you agree?
>
>RvS “Yes, but that isn't a problem. Neutrons have just such a charge 
>distribution, and they wander through atoms almost with impunity. 
>Furthermore negative muons also have no problems displacing regular 
>electrons and forming muonic molecules.”
>
>Whoa, Robin, way off. Textbooks say the neutron has no electric 
>charge, and yes, it is true that it is more complicated than that. There is
>
>evidence that the neutron is really more like a compact atom with dual 
>charge instead of a particle with no charge. Neutrons, like atoms in 
>general, may be electrically neutral overall but charged at different 
>locations within their volumes. But the crux of the issue is the near field
>
>at atomic distances of near one angstrom, which is approximate for Pd 
>inner orbitals, and from that perspective, the neutron is neutral to one 
>part in ten billion whereas a hydrino expresses an intense negative 
>charge at one angstrom.

It may express a mild negative charge at distance much less than one angstrom, because it too is neutral to several degrees of approximation.
As the size of the particle shrinks, the approximation gets better.

In short the point is debatable. I'm looking for possible explanations here,
not absolute certainty.

>
>The distance between the centers of the + and - charges in the neutron 
>is less than 10^-24 cm

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this figure?

> but the diameter of the neutron is about 10^-13 
>cm. Therefore the ratio of the distance between the centers of charges 
>to the diameter is less than 10^-11 or less than 0.000,000,000,01. 

Then I wonder what's in between the centres of charge and the edge of the neutron? And what constitutes the outer edge itself?

>When you compare that ratio with the negative near field of a hydrogen 
>atom or a hydrino the relative difference is glaring.  Hydrogen has an 
>atomic diameter of  about 10^-8 cm and its negative near field is even 
>larger. The negative near field of a hydrino hydride would be at least as 
>large.

The negative near field of hydrino *hydride* is indeed large (in fact so is the far field), but you were talking about "un-ionized hydrinos" here above (i.e. neutral hydrinos).

>
>RvS “It wouldn't be a positively charged proton. It would be a negatively 
>charged heavy particle, that the resident electrons would stay well 
>away from.”
>
>IMHO you’ve got it totally backwards. The resident electrons would 
>instead strongly repel any approaching hydrino hydride.

Yes, they would, but the nucleus would attract it, and experience with negative muons shows that the latter wins, though I grant that the muons are much smaller than even the smallest hydrino hydride.

>
>RvS "Actually the energy of the x-rays generated would only be a few 
>keV, and not so easily detected (as x-rays) as you seem to think. These 
>energy levels are basically too low for GM devices, and perhaps best 
>detected using fluorescence, however the latter will also detect EUV."
>
>They are far easier to detect than EUV and could easily be detected 
>with dental film, for instance, which will not detect EUV. Dental film 
>costs a few bucks a sheet and EUV spectroscopy detectors start at 
>$100,000. 

Dental film kept in it's light proof wrapper might work.


>
>I will repeat… with higher level shrinkage, x-rays of that intensity just 
>can't be easily hidden....and Mills has invested millions in finding high 
>energy photons, yet - can you cite a reference to keV level emission 
>from a BLP plasma? 

No, but I'm not sure that he has looked for wavelengths that short.
The equipment used appears designed for EUV spectroscopy.

>
>I wish it were true, but I don't think there is any other conlcusion but that
>
>no x-rays exist in hydrino plasmas... Multi-level shrinkage IMHO seems 
>to be little more than a long-reach supposition based on a theory that is 
>too broad. Even if you buy into the hydrino at EUV levels - which I do - 
>there is NO, ZERO, NADA evidence for x-rays, and x-rays are indeed 
>far easier to detect than EUV in the very apparatus that Mills uses!!

Perhaps you could point to the specs of these devices which support your claim?
(1 keV ~= 1.2 nm) Of interest perhaps is that in the spectrum I quoted above,
the short wavelength side of the spectrum stops at 20 nm, but the base photon
count rises sharply toward the shorter wavelengths. I'm not sure though whether this is just an artifact of the device (perhaps nearing the limit of it's applicability), or representative of a real increase in the photon count 
at shorter wavelengths (which might be some indication of the x-ray evidence you seek).
 
>
>Mills shows us plenty of EUV spectroscopy, which is very convincing, 
>but NO x-ray spectroscopy, which is FAR easier from the standpoint of 
>available lab equipment... so, again, this is basically why I have grave 
>doubts about higher level redundant ground states. 

I'm not so sure about "FAR easier", but I grant that I was too hasty in stating that it would be difficult to discriminate soft x-rays from EUV.
It appears that there are several types of detector available that cover the range from about a hundred eV to a few thousand eV.
(e.g Si Avalanche Photo Diodes, and Ta-based superconducting tunnel junctions 
seem to fit the bill).
As for why Mills hasn't done this, perhaps you should put the question to him directly?

>
>All of the excess energy, the OU output, which is the important factor 
>from the perspective of most vortexians, can be accounted for without 
>recourse to this fiction of extreme shrinkage, so why resort to it until it
>is 
>proven?

Why declare that it is a fiction, when it is a part of the theory, and there appears to be some evidence for it?

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:44:24 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>Point 3, sounds wrong. I'm pretty sure that the gamma
>has to be in a narrow range of frequencies to hit
>the resonance, hence the graser requirement.

Paul's basic notion was that sufficient energy would liberate a neutron from an existing nucleus, thereby achieving two ends concurrently.
First the remaining lighter nucleus would have a different half life, and second the neutron would be reabsorbed elsewhere producing a heavier nucleus, also with a different half life.

e.g. Cs-137 (hl 30 years) -> Cs-136 (hl 13 days) + Cs-138 (hl 32 minutes)

It costs 8.27 MeV to pry a neutron free from Cs-137. Anything over and above that ends up as energy in an excited nucleus, and/or as kinetic energy of the neutron.

(However, I'm not sure what percentage of gammas would actually be absorbed in this way, rather then have their energy depleted stripping electrons from atoms).

[snip]
>Third, from memory the gammas don't need to be coherent, i.e. you don't
>really need a laser, just a sufficient source of gammas/xrays, so a really
>powerful xray machine might do the job (as I believe was Paul's intent).
>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>R. van Spaandonk
>
>When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
>for the man that made it all possible.
>

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 29 19:00:36 2003
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Why ask Fred?
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 12:56:26 +1000
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:33:09 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>Fredrick Spaber posted;
>
>>Sorry about the temporary thread shift, Keith and Robin, but, as a 
>>late comer to the
>>topic I think the gist is to use gamma rays to remediate nuclear wastes?
>>
>>Evidently most nuclear reactions (fission reactors or decay) produce 
>>gammas that peak
>>at ~ 5 Mev energy.
>
>Does this have to do with the Brown Photoremediation Process?

Perhaps indirectly (assuming the "Brown Photoremediation Process" actually works), but it's a bit of a stretch. 
IMO the process you mention probably reduces radioactivity by evaporating or sublimating the radioactive material, so that it gets dispersed in the air.
Then when you measure the starting material, as if by magic, the radioactivity of what ever is left is reduced (just as long as you don't measure the increased radioactivity downwind).

Regards,

R. van Spaandonk

When you are counting the dead, remember who voted
for the man that made it all possible.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 30 06:01:34 2003
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Hi,

Scott Little send me this link. See pages at http://www.acapitalist.com/

Apparently a liquid is boiling when subjected to a magnetic field. That all. no more info.

Do you have guesses what it could be?

Maybe it would be better to this guy is the boiling is sustained or not and what are the temperatures.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 30 21:55:06 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: could it be a known effect?
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 01:11:32 -0500
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Hi Hamdi.

I saw this on another list. Frankly, I don't
know what to make of it. Considering the site,
it seems a bit fishy. If he's soliciting money
and he hasn't already patented the method I
suspect he's a fraud. Without the chemical
being known it's impossible to say what's
going on.

It is possible to achieve a seperation of
ions in an electrochemical cell with a
magnet, this you can see visually by splitting
water in a near neutral solution with
a little phenotheline (sp?) in the solution.
But of course, this is something else
entirely.

K.

PS: Looks like America is not the only
country looking to expand it's borders,
huh??? (grin).


-----Original Message-----
From: hamdix [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 9:01 AM
To: vortex
Subject: could it be a known effect?


Hi,

Scott Little send me this link. See pages at http://www.acapitalist.com/

Apparently a liquid is boiling when subjected to a magnetic field. That all.
no more info.

Do you have guesses what it could be?

Maybe it would be better to this guy is the boiling is sustained or not and
what are the temperatures.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 01:43:08 2003
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Hi Keith,

This is reflected to press in such manner but i believe this is not the case.
Military entering N.Iraq and making operations many times for ten years or more.
These are intended to stop PKK entering to our borders.  This time there is no
terrorism activities but I dont know the exact situation  why military is there.
Maybe a political decision. Turkey dont want a Kurdish state there but i dont
understand it such a sensitivity. Maybe there a re some historical reasons.
Anyway, I think making an opposite politics against them is very wrong. 

On the Berman effect, It would be better somebody contact him and ask some questions.


Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
.
> 
> PS: Looks like America is not the only
> country looking to expand it's borders,
> huh??? (grin).
> 

> Maybe it would be better to (*** ask ***) this guy is the boiling is sustained or not and
> what are the temperatures.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar

Regards,
 
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 06:35:26 2003
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:32:57 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR downloads today
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1030329150625.14978A-100000 college.antioch-
 college.edu>
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         More visits WHERE?

To the LENR-CANR website. I am not sure how the ISP measures or defines a 
"visit" but apparently one visit occurs each time someone accesses the web 
page, looks at various screens and/or downloads files. I do not know how it 
can the person has left. It records the average time and other stats per 
visit. For the last week:

Average Pageviews Per Visitor: 5
Average Hits Per Visitor: 8
Average Bytes Per Visitor: 645,724
Average Length of Visit: 234 sec

Downloads on Sunday were a little higher than normal, at 530. Usually the 
number is 300 to 400.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 06:38:06 2003
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR downloads today - correction
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I wrote:

"I do not know how it can the person has left."

Meant: I do not know how the Earthlink ISP can tell the visitor has left, 
or disconnected.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 09:18:05 2003
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR downloads today - correction
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At 9:36 AM 3/31/3, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>"I do not know how it can the person has left."
>
>Meant: I do not know how the Earthlink ISP can tell the visitor has left,
>or disconnected.
>
>- Jed


It is possible the software simply keeps for a period of time a list of
addresses that have accessed the list.  The size of the address list at the
end of the period is the number of persons accessing during that period.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 09:35:26 2003
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Subject: Re: LENR-CANR downloads today
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>It is possible the software simply keeps for a period of time a list of
>addresses that have accessed the list.  The size of the address list at the
>end of the period is the number of persons accessing during that period.

As I showed in the first message, it also shows "Average Length of Visit" 
(234 seconds this week). To do that, it must detect when people disconnect.

The magazine article is not having a dramatic effect. Downloads today were 
552; respectable but no record. 18 visitors read this page:

http://lenr-canr.org/NewScientist.htm

It is a shame the article is not on the web site.

This demonstrates that people who are seriously interested in CF are 
scattered thinly through the entire population of educated, technically 
capable people. There do not seem to be more than ~1000 among the 139,000 
subscribers to New Scientist. Perhaps I am wrong, and thousands or tens of 
thousands will show up tomorrow, but I doubt it. People in large numbers 
are usually fairly predictable.

With old fashioned media, such as print magazines or television, this would 
be an insurmountable problem. Fortunately, with the Internet we  incur no 
extra cost trying to reach readers (as we would with traditional media), 
because we do not have to search for readers. They come to us, using Google 
and other search tools. It may be that only 0.001% of the population is 
sympathetic to CF, and sincerely interested in it. That would still be a 
huge number of people. With the World Wide Web there is no longer any 
technical or economic barrier that prevents this entire group of people 
from seeing the site and coalescing into a cooperative movement.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 10:27:37 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: LENR-CANR downloads today - correction
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:43:26 -0500
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Hi.

It's an estimate based on the timestamps on
each request in the log. So if I request
4 pages, I can look at the timestamp of
page4 and subtract from the timestamp of
page1. Clearly, this can be misleading
for a small number of pages, but often
the stats are just estimates.

All things considered, you'd do well to
use a real hosting service rather than Earthlink.
I think you can reduce costs, and get
much better service. I hate to recommend
anyone, but for example consider these
folks www.hostingmatters.com for a sense
of the costs/features.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:16 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LENR-CANR downloads today - correction


At 9:36 AM 3/31/3, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>"I do not know how it can the person has left."
>
>Meant: I do not know how the Earthlink ISP can tell the visitor has left,
>or disconnected.
>
>- Jed


It is possible the software simply keeps for a period of time a list of
addresses that have accessed the list.  The size of the address list at the
end of the period is the number of persons accessing during that period.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 10:55:31 2003
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:52:23 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Cheaper ISPs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMKEKPDIAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>All things considered, you'd do well to
>use a real hosting service rather than Earthlink.
>I think you can reduce costs, and get
>much better service. I hate to recommend
>anyone, but for example consider these
>folks www.hostingmatters.com for a sense
>of the costs/features.

I do not see much advantage. The price per GB of transfer is about the same 
as Earthlink, $2/GB. The maximum is 18 GB, compared to 30 for Earthlink. It 
does not say how much they charge for gigabytes above the quota.

Unfortunately, the magazine article does not seem to be causing a flood of 
downloads, so I am nowhere near the limit for the $20 per month service. As 
things stand, hostingmatters would save $9 per month. It is not worth the 
trouble to change.

There are probably cheaper ISPs out there. I should locate one in case 
traffic increases radically.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 11:15:51 2003
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Unfortunately, the magazine article does not seem to be causing a 
> flood of downloads,


The magazine is not actually *out* yet.  

Terry

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> There are probably cheaper ISPs out there. I should locate one in case 
> traffic increases radically. 


I doubt you will find a comparable quality ISP for a significantly lower 
price.  Earthlink is owned by Sprint, one of the primary Inet carriers. 
 When I worked at Sprint, the daughter companies received a significant 
discount for data services.  

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 11:43:09 2003
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>>Unfortunately, the magazine article does not seem to be causing a flood 
>>of downloads,
>
>
>The magazine is not actually *out* yet.

Yes, it is. Subscribers already have copies, I think. A friend purchased a 
copy in a Chicago bookstore and tried to fax it to me, but my fax machine 
did not work. It should reach Atlanta stores by Wednesday.

Of course the effect may have just begun. Perhaps it will last for weeks, 
as print copies are circulated in libraries and labs. I wrote earlier that 
I suspect an individual reader will look up the web site within a day or 
two after reading the article if he looks at all. However, many readers 
many not see the article until next week or the week after.

As I mentioned earlier, the New Scientist web site claims a circulation of 
140,000, and "a worldwide readership of almost half a million." The meaning 
is unclear. Does that include copies read in libraries? Estimated copies 
passed around by friends and colleagues? Does it include copies read on the 
website? That seems most likely to me. If so, we are out of luck, because 
the CF article is not included in the free section of the web site, only 
the paid archives.

(See http://www.newscientist.com/thesite/tsfaq.jsp)

Anyway, we continue to make progress at LENR-CANR.org. This is not strictly 
a numbers game. It is not like classic 19th and 20th century mass marketing 
in newspapers, radio and television. If we connect to a few dozen 
influential people, it may do more good than persuading thousands of 
ordinary folks.

Actually, I predict that TV disk recorders like TiVo will soon bring about 
the abrupt end of commercial television as we have known it in a few years. 
I got a recorder last year, and I have not watched an ad since. I doubt 
commercial broadcasters will find a workaround. This is the subject of this 
week's Cringley column:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030327.html

- Jed


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Terry Blanton wrote:

>I doubt you will find a comparable quality ISP for a significantly lower 
>price.  Earthlink is owned by Sprint, one of the primary Inet carriers.

Actually, I have found all kind of great deals for the unwary. Here is one 
for $8 per month with no bandwidth limits: http://www.winsave.com/

It is, they say, "unmetered." They explain: "Data Transfer. We DO NOT place 
caps on monthly bandwidth usage and charge you extra fees if your site is 
successful." I'll bet that translates: "Too good to be true! There is no 
way our server can handle more than 10 GB per month, and it is down down 
half the time anyway, so we'll pretend transfer is unlimited."

More realistic offerings seem to start at about $200 or $300 per month. 
They have considerably more bandwidth than the top Earthlink offering; ~100 
GB seems to be the standard. Additional bandwith is still expensive; about 
$40/GB.

- Jed


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote earlier that I suspect an individual reader will look up the 
> web site within a day or two after reading the article if he looks at 
> all. 


And then the individual reader will tell two friends .  .  . and they 
will tell two friends . . .  ;-)


> Actually, I predict that TV disk recorders like TiVo will soon bring 
> about the abrupt end of commercial television as we have known it in a 
> few years. I got a recorder last year, and I have not watched an ad 
> since. I doubt commercial broadcasters will find a workaround. 


Maybe, but that was also said about VCRs and cable TV.  TiVo, Replay, 
and Sonicblue all have significant up front costs and/or subscription 
costs.  TiVo recently increased their monthly subscription cost.  They 
also have a lifetime sub fee if you so desire.

Each could be subject to pending court action on theft of service.  The 
argument is that if you don't watch the commercials, you are stealing 
the service.  I don't think that dog will hunt, however.

Besides, most broadcast TV shows in prime time are for the brainless 
anyway.  The commercials have better content, IMO.

There is also the likelihood of subscription broadcast TV, especially 
with the new HDTV channels.

Does your wide screen have a HDTV receiver?  If so, you might want to 
check out:

http://www.atlantadtv.org/

Terry

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Terry Blanton wrote:

>>Actually, I predict that TV disk recorders like TiVo will soon bring 
>>about the abrupt end of commercial television as we have known it in a 
>>few years. I got a recorder last year, and I have not watched an ad 
>>since. I doubt commercial broadcasters will find a workaround.
>
>Maybe, but that was also said about VCRs and cable TV.

Sooner or later they will be right.


>   TiVo, Replay, and Sonicblue all have significant up front costs and/or 
> subscription costs.

The one I got came with the sat dish for free. I have seen articles and ads 
for ones built into standard computers. Programming might be a problem at 
first, but I predict web sites sort of like TV Guide will soon have 
downloadable program lists for little or no cost.


>Each could be subject to pending court action on theft of service.

Even if the broadcasters win they will lose in the long run. You cannot 
stop this kind of technology. It is too easy to make, with off-the-shelf parts.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 12:50:53 2003
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: RE: could it be a known effect?
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:06:16 -0500
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Hey Hamdi.

My comment was more a joke than a troll, my apologies
if I struck a nerve.

As regards Mr. Berman, I think I read the original
post on JLN's list. Here's what his website
now says about people asking him questions.

http://www.acapitalist.com/acapitalist_007.htm

If he is having problems with investors, as he
says on the site, perhaps it's because he
has no intellectual property for them to
invest in. Also, considering that any one
of us could do the basic tests to prove
whether energy is really being generated,
and he hasn't but seems willing to take
money, seems a bit strange to me. But then
again, the site name is acapitalist.com
and not ascientist.com...

K.




-----Original Message-----
From: hamdix [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:42 AM
To: vortex
Subject: Re: could it be a known effect?


Hi Keith,

This is reflected to press in such manner but i believe this is not the
case.
Military entering N.Iraq and making operations many times for ten years or
more.
These are intended to stop PKK entering to our borders.  This time there is
no
terrorism activities but I dont know the exact situation  why military is
there.
Maybe a political decision. Turkey dont want a Kurdish state there but i
dont
understand it such a sensitivity. Maybe there a re some historical reasons.
Anyway, I think making an opposite politics against them is very wrong.

On the Berman effect, It would be better somebody contact him and ask some
questions.


Keith Nagel wrote:
>
.
>
> PS: Looks like America is not the only
> country looking to expand it's borders,
> huh??? (grin).
>

> Maybe it would be better to (*** ask ***) this guy is the boiling is
sustained or not and
> what are the temperatures.
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 13:13:50 2003
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:11:40 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Cheaper ISPs
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>Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>>I doubt you will find a comparable quality ISP for a significantly 
>>lower price.  Earthlink is owned by Sprint, one of the primary Inet 
>>carriers.
>
>Actually, I have found all kind of great deals for the unwary. Here 
>is one for $8 per month with no bandwidth limits: 
>http://www.winsave.com/

There's all kinds sucker traps out there.

>
>It is, they say, "unmetered." They explain: "Data Transfer. We DO 
>NOT place caps on


>More realistic offerings seem to start at about $200 or $300 per 
>month. They have considerably more bandwidth than the top Earthlink 
>offering; ~100 GB seems to be the standard. Additional bandwith is 
>still expensive; about $40/GB.
>
>- Jed

I agree. If that is the price to beat, and you would consider 
switching, let me know and I'll make inquires. These people host lots 
of websites that are bandwith hogs. One in particular is the artist 
sometimes known as Prince.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 14:02:00 2003
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:59:17 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Cabbage ..RE: could it be a known effect?
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y

	A simple and safe pH indicator is the juice from red Cabbage
....boil it and strain off juice.

	I use this to help teach SAFE chemistry

	

On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi Hamdi.
> 
> I saw this on another list. Frankly, I don't
> know what to make of it. Considering the site,
> it seems a bit fishy. If he's soliciting money
> and he hasn't already patented the method I
> suspect he's a fraud. Without the chemical
> being known it's impossible to say what's
> going on.
> 
> It is possible to achieve a seperation of
> ions in an electrochemical cell with a
> magnet, this you can see visually by splitting
> water in a near neutral solution with
> a little phenotheline (sp?) in the solution.
> But of course, this is something else
> entirely.
> 
> K.
> 
> PS: Looks like America is not the only
> country looking to expand it's borders,
> huh??? (grin).
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hamdix [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 9:01 AM
> To: vortex
> Subject: could it be a known effect?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Scott Little send me this link. See pages at http://www.acapitalist.com/
> 
> Apparently a liquid is boiling when subjected to a magnetic field. That all.
> no more info.
> 
> Do you have guesses what it could be?
> 
> Maybe it would be better to this guy is the boiling is sustained or not and
> what are the temperatures.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 31 14:21:36 2003
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" 

> http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v422/n6929/abs/nature01490_fs.html
> is evidence for short term coherence in optical phonons in Bismuth.

> Just the sort of thing that could lead to CF if we could produce the effect
> in a D saturated cathode.


This is yet another tentative link, or interesting cross-connection in a string of coincidence that may point to some explanation for certain CF mechanics.

Bismuth is a very interesting material that becomes superconducting under high pressures or when alloyed. 

It is known that when a metal like bismuth, which has an unfavorable crystal structure for superconductivity, is alloyed with other element(s) that gives a favorable average valence or a more open crystal structure, the resultant material may become superconducting, and many alloys and metalloids have been found that become superconducting at much higher temperatures than any of the pure elements in the mix.

"BISCO," a bismuth cuprate, is indeed one of the most promising of the proven HTSC materials, and definitely becomes superconducting at above liquid N temps....

Several past references have been made to BEC-like coherence and possible HTSC (high temperature superconductivity) in deuterium-loaded palladium, all stemming from the role of "effective" confinement pressure on a D-loaded Pd matrix - which Pons & Fleischmann (P&F)  said was equivalent to D2 pressures of about 8x10^26 atm.  Ed Storms has countered that Electrolytic action, or overpotential, does not produce "any actual pressure" over about 1 atm. but OTOH,  the Italian researcher Celani has gone to great lengths to equate actual pressure with overpotential and states that 1:1 D2 gas loading is the indeed the real equivalent of 22,000 atm.
http://www.memex.it/Fusione/Celani.htm

Now consider this: One effect of high pressure is in "closing up" systems, thereby reducing entropy, For example, a pressure of 12,000 atm. reduces the entropy of potassium metal by 30 per cent. Pressure, in many respects,  produces physical effects akin to low temperature (one kilo-atmosphere can be considered for some purposes roughly equivalent to a temperature of 12.19ēK.).

Considerable use of high temperature has been made to bring about chemical and physical changes in systems for various purposes - since temperatures in the range of 500ēC.-2000ēC. supply energies equivalent to those found in chemical bonds. However, comparatively little use has been made of applying only pressure for similar purposes,  because experimental techniques for producing pressures of the order of kilo-atm. over larger areas can be difficult in the laboratory (such pressures are required to provide compressive energies which correspond in magnitude to chemical bond energies) .

Where does all this speculation take one?

Well, if you want to go out on a limb- to the "fringe of the fringe," so to speak, then consider this Google cache of a site that may have been removed from the internet for unknown reasons (conspiracy-buff ALERT):
http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:3rhhfzyC6mwC:elifritz.members.atlantic.net/bion.htm++site:elifritz.members.atlantic.net+superconductivity+bismuth+iodide&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

>From that site: "Bismuth (I) Iodide is predicted, from Theoretical Principles and Experimental Evidence, to be a unique and distinctive Material for High Temperature Superconductivity and Superfluidity, Thermomagnetic and Thermoelectric Energy Conversion, the Electrolysis of Water and the Catalysis of Hydrogen and Oxygen. "

Kind of sounds similar to palladium, doesn't it? 

Except about 100 times cheaper, and with other interesting properties, such as greater SOLUBILITY. Solubility is, of course, the most effective way to maximize surface interfacial contact. Of course, the solubility of D in Pd is a "sine qua non" of CF but it is limited to close to 1:1 whereas Bismuth Iodide should go at least twice that high and might even form a kind of ammonia-like salt, BiID2 at some point. Now that should be an interesting creature...

It might be informative to determine if Bismuth, or Bismuth Iodide has any applicability to cold fusion - maybe it would result in a new slant or new technique, something like HPCF (high pressure cold fusion)?

Jones

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In a message dated 3/31/03 5:22:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:

<< 
 This is yet another tentative link, or interesting cross-connection in a 
string of coincidence that may point to some explanation for certain CF 
mechanics. >>

...................Snip......................

Yes, The nuclear constants of the motion tend toward those of the 
electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional 
frequency of one megahertz-meter.  At thermal frequencies the coincidence 
length is 50 nanometers.

You are on the right track.

Frank Znidarsic

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